ML20235W276
| ML20235W276 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Diablo Canyon  |
| Issue date: | 01/23/1984 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20235W266 | List: |
| References | |
| FOIA-88-229, REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 8903100569 | |
| Download: ML20235W276 (28) | |
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ORIGINAL !
UNITED 5 TATE 5 0F AMERICA NUCLEAR Rect;LAroRY COMMISSION i
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In the matter of: f DISCUSSION OF PENDING ' i INVESTIGATIONS ON DIABLO CANYON Docket No.
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. CLOSED MEETING '
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Location: Washington, D. C. Pays- 1 - 27 Date: Monday, J.anuary 23, 1984 l
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TAYLOE ASSOCIATES Coun Rep ,w
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, 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3 --
4 DISCUSSION OF PENDING INVESTIGATION OF DIABLO CANYON 5 ---
6 CLOSED MEETING - EXEMPTIONS 5 AND 7' 7 ---
8 Room 1130 1717 H Street, N.W.
9 Washington, D.C.
10 Monday, January 23, 1984 11 The Commission met, pursuant to recess, at 12 3:30 p.m.
13 COMMISSIONERS PRESENT:
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14 NUNZIO PALLADINO, Chairman of the Commission VICTOR GILINSKY, Commissioner !
15 THOMAS ROBERTS, Commissioner l JAMES ASSELSTINE, Commissioner 16 FREDERICK BERNTHAL, Commissioner ]
l 17 STAFF AND PRESENTERS SEATED AT COMMISSION TABLE:
18 SAM CHILK BEN HAYES 19 WILLIAM J. DIRCKS JACK MARTIN 20 TOM BISHOP MARTIN MALSCH 21 22 ---
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. .. 1 P.,R,,Q q E E g I,N,,g,S, 2 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: This is a continuation in a 3 closed session of our di'scussion on allegations,.and I will
'4 . turn the meeting over first to Mr. Hayes and then see if 5 the. staff has any additiotaal comments it would like to make.
6 MR. HAYES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. '
i 7 As of Friday, I thought I was going to make a tie-8 in to the staff's numbers with respect to OI investigations ,.
9 but as 'of this afternoon my figures don't jive with them.
10 But I'just received. shortly -- within the last couple of 11 hours -- an additional request, to do an investigation la involving the intimidation and harassment aspects.
l Let me ask you, Tom, is that one' investigation on
( 13 14 your chart or three?
15 MR. MARTIN: It is three.
16 MR. HAYES: Then we tie in, then we tie together, .
17 then.
18 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Which three are you talking i
19 about?
20 MR. HAYES: Three individuals who have alleged that 21 they were in fact intimidated and/or harassed. Mr. Martin l l
l 22 has asked us as of a few hours ago to look into those 23 allegations.
l 24 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: And those are not reflected 25 on this. We do add three to any particular box there?
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. 1 MR. MARTIN: No, they are on the chart.
2 MR. HAYES: They are on the chart, but they were 3
not on my paper for my discussion with the Commission this 4
afternoon. I got them j ust recently.
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CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: To the best of your knowledge, 6
then, is this chart of 119 correct with regard to the totai 7
number under investigation by OI, being 12, and four being 8
resolved, and eight not having been resolved?
8 MR. HAYES: Yes. We do have four alle'gations that 10 have in fact been resolved. The staff is unaware, we just 11 received from the Federal Bureau of Investigation an additiona:
12 allegation, a letter from a gentleman was sent to the FBI 13 who then transferred it to us. Our Region V Staff, OI staff, ,
14 has opened a "Q" -- an inquiry -- on that matter.
15 So, that would raise the 12ito a 13. I do not even 16 have the number, it is so new.
17 Now if I can, Mr. Chairman, unless the Commission 18 feels otherwise, if I could summarize just a couple of these 19 particular investigations, the two most important, in my 20 view and also project for the Commission what I see coming 21 down the road in terms of additional allegations.
22 At this time, my office does not have a report 23 that I feel so important that it would cause the Commission 24 to take notice of at this point in terms of evidence or what 25 have you.
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.I 4-1 We do have an allegation on a vender by .the namE
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ps .!' 2 of Bostro m-Bergen that was referred to earlier.
l l 3 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: What is the name?
4 MR. HAYES: Bostrcam-Bergen .
I 5 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: And what do they'do?
6 MR. HAYES:- They are a prefab shop, steel, metals.
7 One of the allegers -- if I am not. mistaken, Tom, a- you can help me here -- was interviewed on TV.
9 MR. MARTIN: That's correct. ,
j 10 MR. HAYES: In the City of San Francisco and 11 that was -- Tom mentioned it earlier in the open session -- i 12 alleging poor QA/QC practices; lack of traceability in steel, i
L( 13 foreign steel being labeled as U.S.-made steel.
14 We have allegations on eradicating the heat numbers i 15 and putting other heat numbers on and that sort of thing.
16 We have interviewed three people that had been 17 employed at Bostrum-Bergen. One individual stated that he l 18 was a QC inspector for approximately two years. During 19 that period of time, he probably signed off on about two-20 thousand inspection reports and he indicated to us that not 21 one of them contained totally truthful information, that 22 some information on those inspection reports was in fact 23 false, either the dates, the grade of steel or what have 24 you; just a variety of falsities.
25 Two other individuals were interviewed. Well, let
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1 me' add this to that particular individual, in terms of 3
- 2 his credibility. In my opinion it is somewhat lacking. The 3 man has apparently an extensive record for being arrested 4 for drunkenness , has a suspended driver's license; was 5 arrested for carrying a weapon on an airplane, et cetera 6 MR. MARTIN: The other thing being interesting about 7 the transcript is, he claims that he thought the work was 8 okay, he just didn't want to get out there and go through i 9 the effort of doing the inspection. So, he didn ' t have any I 10 comments about poor work or management.
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: ,
Did he say he signed off 12 all these --
13 MR. HAYES: He did individually, Nithout being l l
14 told to by management or his supervisor, without being l 15 directed. He unilaterally just didn't want to do the work j 16 and just didn't do the inspections and signed it off without j 17 observation.
18 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: What happens to him, now?
19 MR. HAYES: He is no longer employed there.
1 20 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Besides that. Do we let that 21 drop or do we do anything about it?
22 MR. HAYES: Well, we have since interviewed -- that 23 gentleman's interview occurred on, I believe, December 17..
24 Subsequently, we have interviewed two additional ex-t ,sloyeco
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25 of the same vendor and they had to some degree substantiated
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, 1 substantiated some of the QA/QC problems, but not to the 2 extent that the first interviewee' indicated.
3 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: But this is different, it i
4 isn't that he is alleging that somebody else 'did something 6 wrong. He is saying, "I signed off 2,000 of 'these and I know i
6 that some of the information there was wrong." )
1 7 MR. HAYES: Well, he-did indicate that he was l l
8 aware that other inspectors in some instances didn't 9 visually inspect or would stay in their office and sign l 10 their named to inspection reports. So, we are pursuing 11 those matters. ,
12 It has some generic impact'in that our indications 13 at this point show that this particular vendor shipped 14 steel to Diablo Canyon, South Texas and the WPPS, I believe --
l 15 I'm not sure which facility in Washington.
16 MR. MARTIN: And one in Spain.
17 MR. HAYES: That 's right, one in Spain.
18 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: I still think -- I don't have l
19 quite an answer to my question. He as an individual said, l
20 "I didn't do my job at all," that is the basis of why this 21 plant is' wrong. Well, maybe it is not up to us to do 22 anything, it sounds like it is up to PG&E to do something.
23 MR. HAYES: To give you some idea of his credibility ,
24 he came to the interview with a six-pack of Bud.
l 25 (Laughter)
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.- 1 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Can I have one of those for p
i v 2 this meeting?
3 (Laughter) l 4 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Okay, go ahead. I am sorry, 5 I didn't mean to interrupt you.
6 MR. MARTIN. When I reviewed the transc'ript of -
7 the meeting, he drank a half bottle of Jack Daniel.
8 (Laughter) 9 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: This is outrageous.
10 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: All right, go ahead. I 11 MR. HAYES: So, I mentioned the basic allegations 12 but 'I think I tried to put it in perspective. in terms of the
(~ 13 gentleman's credibility. But still, I think we are obliged 14 to follbw through with additional interviews to attempt to 15 tie down some of these wild allegations.
16 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: You said it was referred to j 17 DOJ, is that right?
18 MR. HAYES: Not since I have been with the 19 Commission, Mr. Chairman.
20 The next matter involves a gentleman by the name f 21 of Mr. Harold Hudson --
22 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Hudson?
23 MR. HAYES: H-u-d-s-o-n , who has since --
24 MR. MARTIN: While we are on the subject of )j f -.
v 25 Bostrum-Bergen, should we try and refer to that now, or would I
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1 you prefer --
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" 2 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: S ure . '
I l 3 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Go ahead. l l
4 MR. MARTIN: Well, I guess just to flesh the whole 3 picture out, we did take the approach of having PG&E -- of 1
6 course they have heard all this on the Evening Ne'ws so they 7 vere involved in it. They are in the process of pulling l
1 6 together same basic facts like, what all did this guy work 8 on; what sorts of things were shipped to Diabloscanyon, to 10 try to reconstruct what population of stuff we are even 11 talking about. ,
12 I gather they conclude -- I haven',t seen their
, 13 report yet but they are concluding that the vast majority . i 14 if not all the stuff he worked on was steam plant equipment is and it wasn't very important and did not bear directly 16 on many of the safety equipment.
17 The reason why we are not dismissing this'and are '
18 still taking it fairly seriously is that there are some 19 other circumstances here that look a little screwy.
20 There is a NASA facility south of San Francisco 21 that has the world's biggest wind tunnel test facility that 22 They had a major failure was recently Icbuilt and upgraded.
23 there about a year or so ago?
24 Yes, in December of '82.
, MR. BISHOP:
J 25 MR. MARTIN : And it turned out that it ruined the 1
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1 wind tunnel facility, major structural failures in welds i A
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3 Now, that one is just replete with failures. ;
4 Apparently NASA was supposed to do the quality' inspection 5 i and they didn't do their job. Nobody did their job and the !
6 whole thing failed. So, it's a little murky as't'o who is 7 directly responsible.
8 But it is interesting that the same name pops up 9 in another quality-related issue involving large welding 10 structures. So, we are not taking this very lightly and-l 11 it may take a while to get to the bottom of it.
12 PG&E has, unlike most of the other, allegations, 13 this is one that they are deeply involved in because they
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14 have seen these things in the news and they've got 15 investigators out in the field. It's sort of everybody !
16 pursuing this one at the moment. I 17 MR. HAYES: Yes. As a matter of fact, we have on 18 behalf of the Commission, made contact with the Inspector
.19 General's Office of NASA and passed on that information to 20 them. They had not yet started an investigation but had done 21 a very comprehensive -- I call it an Accident Review Board --
22 to look into why the wind tunnel failed.
23 The next situation that I think is important are 24
- f. the allegations from Mr. Harold Hudson. We have received u) 25 three separate packages of technical data that has been given
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L I have'been advised by his representative that 1 to'the staffi
..m 2 Mr. . Hudson is working on the , fourth package of . technical 3 data.
i 4 Also in discussions with Mr. Tom Devine from GATT, l 6 Mr. Devine gave me three affidavits last week which the 1
i 6 staff already had, by the way. Mr. Devine indicated that i 7 while he was at Diablo Canyon area he spoke to.approximately 8 twenty' individuals during a two-week period. He was in the 9 process. of taking nine affidavits, three of which we have.
10 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Is this related to Harold 11 Hudson? I just don't understand Harold Hudson -- all I 12 heard so far is he sent three packages and there is a fourth 13 package. He alleged something about the - -
14 MR. HAYES: Mr. Hudson is working with GATT and 15 in fact Mr. Devine is putting together an affidavit for 16 Harold Hudson, i
17 Harold has given us three packages, separate 18 packages, dealing with technical concerns. !
19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Was he working with GATT 20 when he prepared the first package?
21 MR. HAYES: It is my opinion that, yes because 22 I asked him why he sent it to the person he sent it to and -- 4 23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Who shall remain nameless.
24 (Laughter) j 25 MR. HAYES: It was because you were making a tour
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, 11 1 of the Plant, as I understand. So, he was trying to get it to I 2 you as part of the tour.
3 CHAIRMAP PALLADINO: Are there any alleged 4 allegations of wrong-doing in the packages that have been 5 sent?
6 MR. HAYES: Not to my knowledge. The staff is 7 looking at those now to determine, I presume, the technical 8 sufficiency of the allegations.
9 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: If they are allegations, what 10 is there to investigate?
11 MR. BISHOP: There are allegations there, Mr.
12 Chairman --
, 13 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: There areg,t'h'at's what I am --
14 MR. BISHOP: Quite a number of them. His concerns 15 deal primarily with the quality of welding, veld inspection, 16 weld procedures , valve wall thickness me asurement , . materials ,
17 weld procedure qualification; quite a broad category.
18 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: So, there are allegations.
19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I have not read through 20 them myself, I received them. But it is quite a fat package 21 and I understand that it goes into great detail and is 22 documented to a considerable degree.
23 MR. HAYES: Very comprehensive. That was my ,
f 24 lay view of the technical matters. That is why I sent it 1
25 over to NRR and to the Region for review. l l
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' ... COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Where is Mr. Hudson these
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3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY.s.. He has just been terminated, j
'4 I I understand.
5 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Terminated by --
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COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: By whoever it is he worked l l
7 for.
8 MR. HAYES: Yes, he was.
8 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Who did he work "for?
10 MR. BISHOP: He werked for Pullman Power Products 11 on Diablo Canyon's site. initially as a quality control 12 inspector. He terminated that job and came .back very shortly
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s_ thereafter as a pipe fitter?
MR. HAYES: That's correct.
MR. MARTIN:. He quit the first time.
MR. BISHOP: Yes, he quit the first time.
MR. HAYES: Apparently Harold's story is that 18 during his audit job at Pullman he got concerned about the l'
QA/QC area and started doing extensive audits on his own plus those audits that he was mandated to do.
21 I understand he was supposed to have done 18 per 22 year, completed audits. He failed to complete all 18 audits 23 to final resolution, and he had some conflicts with his 24 g management who told him, either do the job and get out, in v' -
25 essence.
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He elected to remove himself from that position-
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- , 2 and went to the labor union and he is a pipe fitter and 3 came back on the site as a pipe f'itter and has been working 4 as a pipe fitter.
5 I believe it was one week ago last Friday, Mr.
6 Hudson was one of 50 individuals who -- they were not fired -
7 they were laid off for lack of parking space at the site.
8 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Say that again?
t 9 (Laughter) ,
q 10 MR. HAYES: Mr. Hudson was one of 50 individuals 11 who were laid off, ostensibly because there was insufficient I
12 parking at the site. .
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13 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: And what iE the source of 14 that information?
16 MR. HAYES: His representative, Mr. Tom Devine.
16 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I have been out there. My 17 God, there are literally hundreds of thousands of automobiles j 18 you can park on that site.
19 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: It looks like there is a N lot of parking space on that site.
21 (Laughter) 22 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: That's a long raod.
23 MR. HAYES: Of the 50 individuals, 47 were out-of-i 24
_g towners which is the normal practice during a lay-off, and J t 25 He was one of them, three were members of the local union. i 1
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1 He did approach his immediate supervisor who went
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.' 2 to, I believe, the construction foreman of PG&E, possibly, and !
3 said, you know, "What's going on." Basically, the word came 4 down, "Well, he has been identified as the one who will go 5 on this 50 round." So, he is out of work at this point.
6 MR. MARTIN: This could be one that turns out to .be 7 a real problem. It looks like it's got -- I think on his 8 technical concerns we have like these four installments we 9 are ?.ooking at. I think we are pretty much throuch the first 10 one. We have not written our report yet. Can we give a 11 conclusion on it?
12 MR. BISHOP: Yes. It is really preliminary to 13 give our results because, as I said, the te'm a has just 14 wrapped up there last Friday. We, of course, have been down 15 with the team through these five weeks on site and have a 16 good sense of how they are turnring out.
17 They have orally recommended that of the first 18 17 items provided by Mr. Hudson, they would recommend closure 19 on roughly 13 or 14 of those as not constituting a significant 20 quality problem.
21 On the other hand, the ones that they have not 22 closed out are not because we have not gotten to them, it's M because they look difficult. They look like there is 24 something wrong there and we need to bring those issues full
~J 25 circle to find out exactly what is wrong.
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. 1 He had many concerns about procedure specifications,
. 2 use of prequalified welding procedures; use of a quality 3 assurance person as opposed to an engineer to write a 4 procedure; use of ASME welders to weld AWS welds.
5 Many of those items were examined and do not 6 constitute problems. On the other hand.
7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Do you mean it that way 8 or the other way around?
9 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I think you meant it the 10 other way around.
11 MR. BISHOP: They were examined and we concluded 12 it was not a problem. !
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13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: No, no, the ASME and the 14 AWS -- l 15 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: Yes, yes.
.16 MR. BISHOP: His statement was that Pullman used 17 ASME welders to weld AWS welds.
18 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Well, then that's ridiculous 19 on its face because the requirements of the ASME are much 20 more stringent than AWS.
21 MR. BISHOP: That's our conclusion also. That is Z2 why that one was closed out. Some of the more difficult 23 ones, just to give you an example, where the procedure
,. _ 24 specifications were not tested for notch toughness as L..I 25 required. And to date we have not been able to find where
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l - 16 1 they either got relief from their own specification for notch 2 toughness or performed the notch toughness.
3 So, we are still digging in to see what the story 4 is there. But that's an example of one.
5 Another one is weldings of studs fabricated from 6 A-325 high-strength material and the use, possibly, of.
7 improper welding procedure used to weld those studs on.
8 Again, we have not been able to conclude that that is or.
9 is not a significant problem at this time. So, that one 10 remains open.
11 Excuse me, Ben, ,
12 MR. HAYES : I was told that since he has been 13 laid off, he has had sufficient time to work up package No. 4 14 .which he is beaverishly putting together for us.
15 MR. MARTIN : (Inauduble) 16 (Laughter) _ _ _ _ , _ .
17 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: He is working overtime. ,
18 MR. MARTIN: I have a feeling that we have two 19 issues here, the technical ones we are getting to the bottom l 20 of. This other one sounds like a --
21 MR. HAYES: As I say, this information just came 22 to us either last Thursday or Friday and we have not had 23 an opportunity to corroborate it.
24 Our office has taken the position in Stokes, and 25 in Harold Hudson and these highly technical areas that we i
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%m 1 2 the staff. If in fact the technical aspects appear to be
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3 meritorious, then there may be a questionable area of j l
4 document certification or f abrication or what have you.
5 Then our office would get more deeply infolved.
6 So, we are kind of waiting for the tech'nical 7 analyses to be completed before we take another move. .
8 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL: Has there been a single !
9 positive finding yet from any of his allegations? I mean, 10 so far you have disposed of a large number and you are still 11 in a position of trying to disprove.
12 MR. BISHOP: Yes, I have put those, those two 13 examples I mentioned to you, in the positive' class, that they 14 are a problem at this point. What we have not done is 15 had an opportunity to exhaust all avenues of where it may 16 not be a problem.
17 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL: But a problem in proof in 18 documentation, or a positive finding of a mechanical 19 structural problem?
20 MR. BISHOP: We just aren't done with it. No, 21 there is no mechanical problem at this point identified. But 22 we are not through.
23 MR. MARTIN: I think just in general we can say --
- 24 and I think this is true -- that we really haven 't found 25 any equipment problems. But I guess what we are looking for
18 1 ' here in delving into these things, of course, are there A
J' 2 any hardware problems.
3 Secondly, do these things -- are they symptomatic 4 of some kind of a flaw in the management and quality 5 systems that they used to build this . plant. That is when 6 we are tentative on these. It 's not that ' there is j unk in 7 the plant, but does it reflect any kind of a flaw in the 8 management or quality performance. We are just not at the 9 bottom of that, i 10 MR. BISHOP: I am also tentative because we have 11 not put these in writing yet., Often times when things 12 get reduced to writing, something becomes obvious that wasn't
(~, 13 quite so obvious.
14 So, when I talk about Mr. Hndson 's concerns it 's is very preliminary and it is just based on my interface with 16 the team on the site. l 17 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL: He's now got package No. 4, 18 though, you understand.
19 MR. MARTIN: In preparation, he is preparing it.
20 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL: When he presents you with ;
21 these materials, is there any indication, are these his M . personal observations or is he serving as a kind of funnel 23 or conduit for --
j 24 MR. BISHOP: Both. I think most of them are s
-) 25 his but he has alre ' en on the site for some time.and knows
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1 individuals. .Ie he' heard'of this, he'll do a little research. .!
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2 He has done a very thorough job of' putting together papers 3 that- s upport why he perceives these. things are a problem'..
4 MR. DIRCKS: And now, I'think, he is being repre-4 5 sented by Tom Devine of GATT.
6 MR.. MARTIN: When he presents these, typically .
-7 .t is in'a -- you know, the leader of our' tee.m down there,-
i 8 they get together in his motel room and go until midnight 9 while he presents ' them thi~s with the GATT attorney there. '
10 It's fairly formal and well1 organized. It is.not just
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11 dumping a lot of randum material but it is fairly. well ,
12 organized. ,
(; 13 MR. HAYES : While we have other ih'vestigative 14 inquiries, the, items that I mentioned to the Commission 15 this afternoon are really the most important areas of the 16 the vendor case, the Stokes and the Hare".d Hudson.
17 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Are those the ones -- let's 18 see, you have four that the resolution did not impact on 19 criticality; three, status not determined.
20 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: And one that does.
21 MR. HAYES: Now, the one that does is the =-
El MR. BISHOP: Bos t ro.m-Bergen .
23 MR. HAYES: Yes, is the vendor case.
24 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: I thought this No. 8 was 25 correct. We got three, status not determined; four, do not
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20 1 impact on criticality or five percent, and one that does.
m s 2 MR. HAYES: That 's the vendor case, Bostrum-Bergen, 3 that I mentioned earlier.
4 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Where does that stand? Would 5 you spell that name again? I got about four different 6 ways .
7 MR. HAYES: B-o-s-t-r-o-m Bergen, B-e-r-g-e-n, 8 Products.
9 MR. BISHOP: Mr. Chairman, there is another name 10 associated with that company, a wholly-owned subsidiary 11 called MEDDCO -- M-E-D-D-C-O ,- MEDDCO Metals. These 12 allegations do not appear to be limited just to Bostrom-
~T 13 Bergen but they also include MEDDCO Metals.' So, if you hear 14 that term --
15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: What are we up to here, is are we just kind of getting a run-down?
17 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: I just wanted to see where we 18 were.
19 MR. HAYES: That's where we are at this point, M concentrating probably on the vendor case and awaiting the 21 staff for the technical analysis.
22 MR. MARTIN: I guess our perception is, we are 2 doing the te-chnical part and we are relying on you to get
,s 24 into the harassment and, you know, the wrong-doing part of it.
V 25 I guess I would just like to summarize one thing.
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- i. 3 you know, when Commissioner Asselstine asked earlier whether U/. 2 ve mean by direct evidence, I think since we wrote SEER 21 3 it is my perception that there have been at least three
'1 4 categories of pressure or undue interference come to our 1
5 attention.
6 One is Stokes which we talked about and we-7 are looking into. A second is the Pullman Company where we 8 have three different individuals claiming they have been 9 directly -- you know, more than just inference -- but a 10 direct threat. Hudson, of course, is one and then there are 11 'two others that we have referred to OI.
12 The third case is the Foley case where.the QC 5, 13 inspector was fired for insubordination where, I think, the 14 team's conslusion after having looked at that is, that 15 looks like a legitimate firing. But the result of it was, is a whole bunch of people around the circuit felt that, you 17 know,.that's what happens to you if you write NCR.
18 So, there was an indirect spin-off that the 19 company was not alert enough to catch and take care of. So, 20 we have not referred that to OI and I don't think we will.
21 Instead, I think, we are going to make a big issue out of it 22 with the company that they really have to have more of an 23 outreach program.
24 And'we are beginning to see they are doing that.
25 For example, they have established an ombudsman and they are
l . >
, 22' 1 belatedly.trying to put some.of the system --
- x 2 ' CHAIRMAN . PALLADINO : Who is this, Foley?
4 CHAIRMAN PAILADINO: Is Foley'a --
5 MR. MARTIN:' Foley is their contractor, yes.
6 CHAIRMAN.PALLADINO: I thought this individual was 7 fired for insubordination.
8 MR. MARTIN: To Foley.
9 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: To Foley, i 10 MR. MARTIN: Yes, he was a Foley employee who looks 11 like.he was insuborM nate. You know, you could make a case 12 there who has intimidated whom. I mean, it looks like --
f~;
\j 13 CHAIRMAN PAILADINO: No, I was woidlering, Foley 14 looks like it needs a better outreach program.
15 MR. JiARTIN: Yes, and so does Pacific Gas and 16 Electric. I think they both do and they are moving in that i
17 direction. The one you saw, Palo Verde.
16 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: Yes.
19 MR. MARTIN: I think everybody needs to do that, 20 be more sensitive to this issue. But I don't think in the 21 -Foley case we are going to be able to nail anybody about !
22 doing anything wrong. They just weren't very smart and should 23 be more forward-looking. That's sort of our preliminary.
24 But those. are three categories of things that have
%)
25 come up since SSER 21 and I don't want anybody to -- I don't
23-
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1
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., 1 .want to leave any uncertainty . there. . l That 's everything at' .l
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- 2 least that I know about.
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- 3 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: Yes.
4 MR. BISHOP: In that regard -- excuse me - 'I would 5 like to add one comment on a st'atement that I made. earlier.
6 I' was asked the1 question of how many of these 7 have come to the company's attention before, and I indicated-8 something to the effect of a half to two-thirds.
8 One of the company officials at the break came up 10 very upset,. asking me if I could document that statenent. In 11 retrospect, when I think about what I said: there , 'I 'think he.
12 had a~different glint on it than I did.
(')
As 13 When I made that statement, I was referring to'the-14 f act that many of these problems that we are being directed 15 to are documented, are inspection reports, nonconformance 16 reports, audit reports. And that is what I meant in this 17 sense. --
18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Let me see, but that 19 particular individual did not raise it with the company as 20 sort of a formal complaint.
21 MR. BISHOP: And the company's position is, he 22 s aid that , " Gee, you made it sound like- they came to us and 23 we turned our back on them." I didn't want to give that 24 impression. We don't have -- we have not found too many s
v 25 of those. -
_______________i____________________-____ _ _ ._- _
c-24 l s l
- 1 m,
- MR. MARTIN: . I h aven ' t s een many o f thos e . - Now, ')
. . i s 2 we have found some where it took them a long time to actually 3
face up to it and do something about it. There is one here I
4 involving the residual heat removal system where it took j 5
almost two years to get all the way to the end of the --
6 concerned. There was some humbling involved but,they did do 7
it. I'm not sure -- have we found any where they just --
8 I guess the ones that we have are ones that the fellow is 8
alleging they have done this but we have not --
10 MR. BISHOP: The company's estimate is about five 11 percent of the ones they know about. They frankly don't 12-know about most of the allegations. We haven't -- we played 13 l' it very close to the chest.
14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Let me ask you, are those 15 Harold Hudson allegations public?
16 MR. BISHOP: The first package is because we made 17 Board notification on that.
18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I see.
19 MR. BISHOP: We also simultaneously sent you a
" copy. He sent a copy to the local newspaper in San Luis 21 Obispo. So, that one is, i 22 He has not requested anonymity so we will make i 23 Board notification on his future packages and those will w 24
. then be public, also.
25 MR. MARTIN: Now, the other two fellows who have
. . 25 1 been claiming intimidation want to be completely anonymous.
.s 2 So, that makes it very difficult to run down the other half-3 of the E tory. That is why we asked Mr. Hayes to useLhis j l
4 talents to get to the bottom of that one. I l
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Let me ask you this, is 6 this site less receptive to these sorts of concerns on the-7 part of workers than other sites, or are they typical?
8 MR. MARTIN: I guess my feeling is not. I found 9 them pretty much the same. And, you know -- I would like j 10 to speak to that for a minute.
11 A lot of this -- I d.on't think they are any less 12 so than others.
~
( ', ~
13 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Less what? l l
14 MR. MARTIN: Less --
I don 't think they are less 15 receptive than other sites. At least when I got to Region V 16 I didn't find any of the construction projects that really 17 went out of their way except for WNP-2 was doing some of that 1
18 simply since they had so much turbulence in their construction 19 program.
20 But that is one of the reasons why we interviewed 21 the 158 people is to get some overall feel. And my reasoning 22 was that if there was widespread feeling of hostility on the 23 part of the company towards this, at least 2 people would i 24 have spoken up. And I didn't find it was much different than,
(_J '
25 say, Palo Verde or really any of the others.
i 26
. 1 Now, we have found cases where they could l 3 l
-- 2 .certainly have been more solicitous as to what people felt i
- 3 and could do a hell of a lot-more, actually go out and l
l 4 encourage. We could have, too.
L l 5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, construction is a ;
6 pretty rough business.
7 MR. MARTIN: I think that's right. And I think 8 part of this beconus a self-fulfilling prophecy on the 9 one hand. I have accused some of the interveners as 10 being as guilty as anybody about this because, you know, 11 an impression gets started that the company and the 12 government aren't interested. So, everybody is spreading 13 the word, " Don't bother to go to thoseeguys, they won't
(])
14 listen to you anyway," and it sort of snowballs. And then it 15 i,s common knowledge that nobody is interested in your 16 concerns, whether that is true or not.
17 So, I think there was some of that here where it 18 has taken me .a considerable amount of effort to break down 19 some barriers with some of the local groups to get them to 20 talk to us and bring questions forward.
21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Where are we heading? j.
22 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Well, let's see if there are l 23 any more questions. If there aren't, I was going to remind e-24 you, we have scheduled a meeting on February 15 to discuss 25 allegations because we -- -
i* ,
l
. 1 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I can'.t hear you,.to
., 2 discuss what? 1 3 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: To discuss allegations on 4 Diablo Canyon, to review them because we have also scheduled 5 on February 17 a possible vote on criticality and low power.
6 We also have shown reserved time for an' hour 7 before that vote, or that meeting, in case there are any 8 other last-minute allegations.
9 But I would suggest that you keep us j nformed if 10 there is any unusual development in this area between now and 11 the 15th. .
12 Any other questions, comments?
I 13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: No.
(.)
14 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: All right. Thank you, we 15 will stand adjourned.
16 (Whereupon, at 4 o' clock p.m. the meeting of the 17 Commission was adjourned.)
18 l 19 so 21 22 23 24 j
m 25 .
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