ML022320213
| ML022320213 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Davis Besse  |
| Issue date: | 07/16/2002 |
| From: | NRC/RGN-III |
| To: | |
| References | |
| Download: ML022320213 (127) | |
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1 1
2 3 U.S. NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION FIRST ENERGY NUCLEAR OPERATING COMPANY 4 PUBLIC MEETING 5
Meeting held on Tuesday, July 16, 2002, at 6 7:00 p.m. at the Oak Harbor High School, Oak Harbor, Ohio, taken by me, Marlene S. Rogers-Lewis, Stenotype 7 Reporter, and Notary Public, in and for the State of Ohio.
8 9
10 PANEL MEMBERS PRESENT:
11 U. S. NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 12 William Dean, Vice Chairman, MC 0350 Panel 13 Christine Lipa, Branch Chief, Region 3 14 John Jacobson, Branch Chief, Mechanical Engineering Branch, DRS 15 Anthony Mendiola, Section Chief PDIII-2, NRR 16 Douglas Pickett, Project Manager, NRR 17 Christopher (Scott) Thomas, 18 Senior Resident Inspector - Davis-Besse 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
2 1 MR. DEAN: Okay, good evening 2 everybody. Lets get started with our public 3 meeting. My name is Bill Dean, Im the Vice 4 Chairman of the Manual Chapter 0350 panel. This is 5 the third of the evening public meetings that weve 6 had since we formed the panel, so I appreciate you 7 all coming out here. I know we have some 8 competition with the Ottawa County fair, and 9 probably -- maybe a little bit better entertainment 10 there, but hopefully we can address some of the 11 questions or concerns that you might have, give you 12 an opportunity to share those with us.
13 First of all, Id like to thank Mr. Stucker 14 and the people here at Oak Harbor High School that 15 made their facility available to us.
16 If you could, though, Mr. Stucker, is it 17 possible to dim these lights just a little bit here 18 in the front? Wed appreciate that.
19 Jack Grobe, who is the Chairman of the 0350 20 panel had to leave, so hes not available.
21 (To Mr. Stucker) thank you very much.
22 Hes not available this evening, so Im 23 acting instead, and with me tonight with have a full 24 color array of NRC, Ill start at the far left, Scott 25 Thomas, whos the Senior Resident Inspector of MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
3 1 Davis-Beese; Doug Pickett is to his right. He is the 2 Project Manager from NRR headquarters in Rockpoint, 3 Maryland; Tony Mendiola is Dougs Section Chief in 4 our Division of Projects. To my right is Christine 5 Lipa. She is the Branch Chief of the Region 3 office 6 responsible for the oversight and inspection of 7 Davis-Besse are among her duties. To her right is 8 John Jacobson. Johns a -- is it mechanical 9 maintenance --
10 MR. JACOBSON: Mechanical.
11 MR. DEAN: -- Mechanical 12 Inspector from Region 3, and then over there at the 13 slide is John Algood. He is actually Resident 14 Inspector of Perry nuclear plant, whos up here this 15 week assisting Scott and conducting inspection 16 program, and we have -- Im sorry, weve got Nancy 17 Keller who is the admin assistant here at 18 Davis-Besse. She is here helping us and taking care 19 of a lot of the logistics in the back; Rol Lickus, 20 Region 3 programs; Jan Strasma from Region 3 way in 21 the back, Public Affairs, and, I think, Marty Farber 22 is here. Martys in the back. Marty is here as a --
23 hes a Region Base Inspector. Hes here doing some 24 inspections, inspections following up on the augment 25 inspection team results several months ago. I think MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
4 1 that covers everybody from the NRC base. Down below 2 the pit, we actually have a transcriber, Marlene.
3 This was an issue that was raised at the last public 4 meeting that we had, why were we not transcribing 5 these public meetings. We took that issue under 6 consideration and decided to transcribe the evening 7 meetings so that those people who cannot attend will 8 have the opportunity to share in the observations and 9 insights that are discussed at this meeting, so we 10 would expect, oh, probably two to three weeks, I 11 think, is the typical time frame that it takes for 12 the organization that transcribes meetings to get us 13 their transcription, and at that point well make it 14 available on the NRC website.
15 Hopefully as you came in, you picked up some 16 handouts. Theres actually a couple out there. One 17 is just the agenda for tonights meeting, which is up 18 here on the screen. We also had out there the 19 package that was handed out for this afternoons 20 meeting with the Licensee, and well talk about that 21 a little bit, and also there may have been a few 22 copies of the Licensees own packet of information 23 that they presented at the public meeting. Some of 24 those were still out there. Im not sure if there 25 was enough for everybody here or not.
MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
5 1 Also out there -- and hopefully you all take 2 advantage of filling out the public feedback form.
3 Ill try to collect information from members of the 4 public when we have meetings to get feedback from you 5 as regards the accuracy of the meeting, did it meet 6 your expectations and so on, so forth, so hopefully 7 youll take your time and fill it out and provide us 8 some feedback, so that we can make some effort to 9 improve these interreactions with you.
10 Okay, now, enough of the introductions.
11 Relative to todays meeting which is the second item 12 before we get into the opportunity for you to provide 13 us with some questions and observations, we had a 14 meeting with the Licensee from 2:00, and I think it 15 went almost to six this evening with the last part 16 being some opportunity for answers and questions from 17 the poll, but it was another series of what we our 18 continuing a series of meetings with the Licensee to 19 discuss their progress relative to the return to 20 service plan for Davis-Besse, and it was, by most 21 accounts, I think it was a fairly productive meeting, 22 and I think there was a sense of a transition which 23 is really not unexpected for these types of issues 24 where you have a plant that has a significant event 25 or problem, a shutdown, and theyre trying to get MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
6 1 their arms around the issue, and we, the regulator, 2 are trying to understand what is the Licensee doing 3 about it, but I think weve seen some movement on the 4 part of the Licensee in moving from a -- kind of a 5 broad overview plan to actually starting to get some 6 specifics and being able to engage the Licensee on 7 some specific issues, and Ill spend a little bit of 8 time talking about that.
9 There were two major aspects, I think, of the 10 meeting. One was an update by the Licensee on the 11 status of the Return to Service Plan, and then the 12 second piece was the NRC sharing with the Licensee 13 the frame work of our restart checklist which is a 14 key document for us because that will formulate those 15 activities, those areas where we want to have 16 assurance, all are corrected before we will consider 17 authorize and restart up plan, so those were the two 18 main topics that were discussed today.
19 Relative to the Licensees Return to Service 20 Plan, those of you that are familiar with it, theres 21 a number of Building Blocks that the Licensees has 22 identified, and so they spent some time today going 23 over with us the status of each of those Building 24 Blocks, and Ill share just some of the highlights 25 with you.
MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
7 1 Relative to their efforts regarding Reactor 2 Head Resolution, the Midland head that they have 3 purchased to install on the Davis-Besse reactor 4 vessel has essentially completed their inspection.
5 Theyve cleaned it, and they consider it ready to be 6 moved and prepare for installment down here, so 7 theyve spent with us this year, I think, about 8 30,000 man-hours of effort looking at that reactor 9 vessel head, assuring that it was of appropriate 10 quality to be able to be installed at the Davis-Besse 11 plant, and they believe they have completed all of 12 their activities relative to assuring that that 13 vessel head can be -- can be installed.
14 We have also conducted some inspections.
15 Weve watched some of the things they have been doing 16 relative to testing and radiography of the vessel 17 head, and, thus far, our inspections -- we 18 characterize our inspections upon the licensing to be 19 done to be acceptable. There are some additional 20 inspections that still needs to be done relative to 21 the insuring appropriate documentation is available.
22 Of course, well be the looking at activities 23 associated with the effort to put the reactor vessel 24 head through the containment and on the reactor 25 vessel so still there is ongoing work that has to be MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
8 1 done on both our part and the Licensees, but thats 2 pretty much the status of where things are with the 3 reactor head resolution.
4 With respect to Containment Health Plan 5 piece, one of the things that we noted is that the 6 Licensee has expanded the scope of their efforts 7 relative to looking at the containment health.
8 Previously, they characterized what they were doing 9 in containment as an extended condition. Basically, 10 whereas the Board asked that that leaked out of the 11 reactor, where did it impact, and things within 12 containment. They have expanded the scope of their 13 extended condition reviews to look at other things 14 besides components that are reacted by boric acid.
15 They are looking at other things like, for example, 16 the vessel liner in terms of integrity of the reactor 17 vessel liner, and they are also looking at things 18 like containing air coolers, and they have discussed 19 their plans to refurbish and improve containing air 20 coolers or the key components like containment and 21 also looking at systems outside containment that 22 carry boric acid within them, so they have expanded 23 their scopes, and we were pleased to see that they 24 have gone beyond perhaps a more narrow focus, and 25 they are looking much more broader.
MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
9 1 With respect to looking at their systems, and 2 looking at their programs, I think that they gave us 3 a sense of their plans, but I think those are still 4 in the beginnings of implementation so there really 5 wasnt a whole lot of information to share with us or 6 a lot of issues that we could engage in, in terms of 7 the adequacy of their efforts thus far looking at 8 their systems and looking at their programs other 9 than the fact that we will have some future fairly 10 substantial inspections in both of those areas to 11 make sure that their primary -- or their safety 12 systems and that their important programs that they 13 use to insure the health of their systems are indeed 14 adequate or maintained.
15 The last area of their plan that we talked 16 about at great length was their Management and Human 17 Performance Excellence Building Block, and we 18 consider -- really probably the most important piece 19 of the activities as were going along in time and 20 understand why this even happened and the Licensee 21 described efforts that they have relative to forming 22 a Root Cause Assessment Team, and theyre probably 23 still at least a month away, I would imagine, of 24 being able to really define the root cause from a 25 human performance and management prospective relative MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
10 1 to why did this event even occur at Davis-Besse, and 2 so a lot of what we would plan to do as a regulator 3 is hinged upon what it is that they find from that 4 cause and in our assessment of the accuracy of that 5 root cause, so thats something that were going to 6 watch very closely. Were very much interested in 7 what comes out of that Root Cause Team that theyve 8 form and certainly something that we hope at our next 9 meeting with the Licensee next month to be able to 10 engage them in a lot more constructive discussion 11 than perhaps what we had today.
12 I think one key point that the Licensee did 13 try to make is that they showed a slide that 14 basically displayed their management structure for 15 Davis-Besse, and they showed all the individuals in 16 their management structure thats been replaced or 17 that have come on board since early this year, and I 18 think it was about 85 or 90% of their managers are 19 relatively new, having been here since the first of 20 the year, so thats one piece of what they have to 21 do, they have to get managers in place to have the 22 right expectations and the right standards, but the 23 key piece as far as were concerned is how do they 24 convey and translate their expectations and standards 25 so that those are embedded and embodied in what the MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
11 1 organization does on a day-to-day basis, so we have a 2 lot of interest in this area, and well hear a lot on 3 that, so thats kind of a quick snapshot of that part 4 of this afternoons meeting.
5 What Id like to do is ask Christine to just 6 discuss with you very briefly our restart checklist 7 framework that we shared with them this afternoon and 8 then well go onto looking at any sort of questions 9 or issues you might have.
10 MS. LIPA: Thanks, Bill. Okay, 11 one of the things that the -- our inspection Manual 12 Chapter which is the procedure that were using is 13 called 0350, and thats for a plant thats shut down 14 and has some performance problems, and one of the 15 items of our procedure is to come up with a restart 16 checklist and that will define the actions that the 17 NRC needs to take to access what the Licensee, 18 Committee on the Licensee, has done prior to restart, 19 so what we did we provided today, was just a frame 20 work for where were headed on the restart checklist 21 and this is a listing of the items that weve come up 22 with as a panel that we believe will be necessary for 23 us to review or do inspections on certain areas to 24 make sure we understand what the Licensee has done in 25 these areas, and so we have received No. 1, Adequacy MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
12 1 of Root Cause Determinations. Obviously thats 2 important that we understand what the root cause was, 3 and then that defines the corrective actions, and 4 then, No. 2, is the Adequacy of Safety Significant 5 Structures, Systems, and Components, and thats other 6 important piece of our checklist because the -- the 7 systems that might have been affected or the 8 structures, the containment, and all the components 9 that might be affected or could be affected by the 10 problems that lead to the vessel head degradation 11 needs to be reviewed. The Licensee is doing a very, 12 systematic review. Our plan would be to look at how 13 theyre doing those reviews and then also come up 14 with a sampling method for inspection.
15 The third area is the Adequacy of Safety 16 Significant Programs, referring them to the programs 17 that the Licensee is planning on reviewing. We will 18 be selecting a sampling of those to review in detail 19 and to look at their methods of what theyre looking 20 for in those programs.
21 The fourth item is the Adequacy of 22 Organizational Effectiveness and Human Performance 23 and this is really very close to what Bill discussed 24 as far as the Management and Human Performance that 25 the Licensee has attempted with Building Blocks, and MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
13 1 we believe thats a very important part of the whole 2 process here, and then the fifth item is Readiness 3 for Restart. Before the plant starts up, well be 4 assessing our understanding of the readiness for 5 restart, well be looking at the list of the items 6 left on our list and coming up with what other 7 additional documents we need from the Licensee, what 8 additional reviews we need to do and go from there; 9 and then the sixth item is Licensing Issue 10 Resolution. Theres a number of licensing issues 11 that need to be resolved that the Licensee needs to 12 perform, submit documents to the NRC for approval on 13 the docket, and we have six or so, so far that we 14 expect to be coming. There may be more, but for 15 right now we have kind of drafted up on this list, so 16 thats what I have as far as our discussion today 17 with the Licensee, was to give them a good sense for 18 what types of items were considering for a 19 conclusion on our restart and checklist so that they 20 can take a look at what theyre working on. Thats 21 all I have.
22 MR. DEAN: Great! Thanks, 23 Christine. Before we move it to the next segment of 24 the meeting, I guess Id like to offer by a show of 25 hands, how many people this is first one of these MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
14 1 meetings that youve attended. (Indicating). Okay, 2 I think what Id like to do is maybe have Scott 3 Thomas, who is the Senior Resident of Davis-Besse, 4 maybe just spend four or five items, kind of walking 5 you through the issue and kind of somewhat of a 6 primer of the reactor vessel degradation so that you 7 kind of have a sense and a good starting point for 8 why it is were here and why this is a significant 9 issue.
10 MR. THOMAS: I guess this will 11 just kind of be an introduction to nuclear power 12 plant operations. I know there are probably varying 13 levels of knowledge on this issue here, but I guess 14 this will just give a broad base overview of how the 15 plant operates, and this is new to me, too, so well 16 see what slides come up next, but well discuss those 17 as they come, but, anyway, youve got basically two 18 separate parts of a nuclear power plant. You got the 19 primary part which is in the containment structure 20 itself, and then you have a secondary part outside.
21 What happens is in the reactor, thats where 22 the division takes place, heat is generated. Its 23 transported to the steam generator here. Steam 24 water is put in the steam generator and water makes 25 steam, drives the turbine, which drives the MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
15 1 generator, which produces electricity. The steam is 2 condensed in a big condenser and the steam water just 3 proceeds and goes in a cycle. The important thing 4 youll note here is that this -- the secondary root 5 and the primary root were separated and dont come 6 into contact.
7 MS. LIPA: The containment 8 structure?
9 MR. THOMAS: Oh, the containment 10 structure basically encloses the primary loop. It 11 consists of two separate structures; the first is the 12 containment itself, and I heard it described the 13 other day, if you can imagine the glass part of a 14 Thermos. Well, the glass part would be the vessel 15 liner -- or, excuse me, the containment itself, which 16 is obviously not glass, but its an inch and a half 17 thick steel cylinder, and thats the primary 18 containment barrier. Outside of that liner and what 19 you see from the road as you drive by is the shield 20 building, and what that is, its approximately two 21 and a half feet thick concrete of rebar reinforced 22 structure. It protects the containment itself, so --
23 Is there anything else you want me to discuss 24 on this slide, Bill?
25 MR. DEAN: (Indicating).
MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
16 1 MR. THOMAS: Well, lets do it 2 this way.
3 UNIDENTIFIED: Excuse me. Is there 4 a space between the building and the liner?
5 MR. THOMAS: Okay, lets work on 6 terminology here. Weve got the containment, which 7 is the inside, and then we have the shield building, 8 which is a concrete structure, and theres an annulus 9 barrier between there. I would approximate its 10 probably three feet --
11 MR. PICKETT: Four feet.
12 MR. THOMAS: -- four feet of space 13 in between.
14 UNIDENTIFIED: Were they going to 15 inspect that area, too?
16 MR. THOMAS: They are in the 17 process of conducting inspections on that.
18 UNIDENTIFIED: On this, they are?
19 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Well, on the 20 outside of the containment in the annulus area, yes, 21 as well as on the inside, but those are ongoing.
22 Theyre being conducted by the Licensee. Okay?
23 This is a picture of the top of the reactor head, and 24 thats what all the fuss is about. This is the area 25 where the cavity is. These are -- these are the MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
17 1 nozzles, the control rod nozzles. This down here is 2 the insulation area, and these are the drives where 3 they connect to the nozzles. This is what actually 4 pulls the control rods in and out. These are the 5 motors that actually drive -- pull the rods in and 6 out that regulate the division rate and reactor.
7 Thats about all I have on this one.
8 If you keep in mind, the last picture, this 9 is the reactor head. These are the nozzles that 10 penetrate the head. These nozzles, the way that the 11 head is constructed is theyre a cool, very cold, 12 inserted into the reactor head, and its a compressor 13 that heats up and theres a compression there, and, 14 in addition to that, theres a chamber out here that 15 welds the nozzle up to the head. Okay? The reason I 16 put this picture up is it gives a depiction of what 17 the cavity -- basic shape and size of the cavity, 18 which would be indicated by this area here. Okay?
19 And this is -- this is the problem, its a stainless 20 steel cavity which Im sure you have read about in 21 the newspapers. Its what was left as the 22 containment reactor coolant. This is across, the 23 carbon steel head is approximately six and a half 24 inches thick, and this is approximately three-eights 25 of an inch thick. Any questions on this? Okay.
MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
18 1 What this is a picture of is its an actual 2 photo taken in 2000-2001 of the Davis-Besse reactor 3 head. What youre seeing here is these are the 4 bolts that hold -- the bolts that hold the head on to 5 the vessel. This is the transition from the head to 6 the lower support assembly or lower surface 7 structure, and these areas here are what is called 8 the mouse holes or the weep holes. Its got a number 9 of names, but this is -- this is -- they are 10 approximately five by seven inches is the actual 11 size, and I believe there are 17 around the 12 circumference of the reactor head, and this is where 13 the Licensee would do their inspections from as well 14 as do the head cleaning. Those are their only 15 accesses into the -- into this area. Weve got one 16 more here into this area right here in between the 17 top of the reactor head and the insulation. This 18 area here from the bottom of the insulation to the 19 top of the reactor head is approximately two and a 20 half inches, okay, and I would estimate that this is 21 approximately three feet -- two and a half feet, 22 ballpark, so that will give you an idea. Okay, now, 23 put this one back up, please. So what youre seeing 24 here is this the boric acid combined with iron oxide, 25 which is what gives it its red color, this is coming MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
19 1 from the top of the head and the -- the red color is 2 due to the iron that was taken from the cavity at the 3 top of the vessel head and the boric acid and it 4 flowed out of the inspection holes around the reactor 5 head, so -- any questions on this slide? Okay.
6 Any other questions for me? (No response). Okay.
7 MR. DEAN: Thank you, Scott.
8 Our intent there was to try and give 9 everybody kind of a quick basic understanding of, you 10 know, whats transpired here, and, hopefully, be able 11 to allow you to formulate or contextualize any other 12 questions or concerns or issues that you might have.
13 What Id like to do is move into questions.
14 First of all, offer or ask if there is any public 15 officials or representatives that are here?
16 MR. ARNDT: (Indicating).
17 MR. DEAN: Yes, sir?
18 MR. ARNDT: Steve Arndt, Ottawa 19 County Commissioner.
20 MR. DEAN: Okay. Thank you, 21 Steve. Steve, I dont know whether you have any 22 questions or anything that youd like to --
23 MR. ARNDT: (Nod indicating no).
24 MR. DEAN: Okay. What Id like 25 to do is offer then, first of all, individuals that MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
20 1 are from the local community the opportunity to ask 2 any questions or raise any issue. Wed ask you to 3 step up here, I believe there is a sign up sheet to 4 put your name on. If you come up, if you could 5 please annunciate your name, I may ask you to spell 6 it for the of our transcriber, and lets go from 7 there.
8 So any members of the local community that 9 are interested in asking questions or have any issue 10 or concern or anything that they would like to share 11 with us? Dont be shy.
12 MR. WHITCOMB: My name is Howard 13 Whitcomb, W-H-I-T-C-O-M-B.
14 I did attend the meeting this afternoon, and 15 I -- for the benefit of the people that did not and 16 do not have a copy of what First Energy had provided 17 in terms of its handout. I would direct your 18 attention to the Management Root Cause introduction 19 slide in which First Energy attempted to identify in 20 its Initial Assessments the four root cause, 21 preliminary root cause issues, and not in the 22 particular order, but the first one was questioning 23 attitude is not evident in decision making.
24 MR. PICKETT: What page is that, 25 Howard?
MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
21 1 MR. WHITCOMB: 38.
2 MS. LIPA: 37 -- 38, okay.
3 MR. WHITCOMB: I think the 4 "Questioning attitude is not evident in decision 5 making process" I think thats pretty 6 self-explanatory.
7 The second that they identify is a "Lack of 8 management oversight has resulted in lax rigor in 9 process implementation." Im not so sure that I 10 fully understand that item completely.
11 The third is "Standards have existed for many 12 years that lacked rigor in problem solving." Im 13 not sure that I completely understand that one as 14 well, but the one that I have the most difficulty 15 understanding is that the fourth one, "Strong 16 management, slash, leadership tends to improve 17 performance, teamwork and ownership." Now, I would 18 ask this panel, could you offer an explanation as to 19 what that means to you, and I understand that, 20 perhaps, youve only first heard that this afternoon, 21 but youve had the benefit at least of the evening 22 hour to look those materials over, and Id like to 23 have some sort of response to that if I may.
24 MR. DEAN: I had a similar 25 reaction, Howard, when I saw that slide, and I think MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
22 1 without having the benefit of the Licensee here to 2 ask them to explain, I think the point that they were 3 trying to make there is that management, senior 4 management, can have an influence through the force 5 of their own behaviors, and, you know, their 6 activities can have an impact on performance to some 7 degree that could potentially mask underlying 8 cultural issues. That would be my guess as to the 9 point they were trying to make. Can you add onto 10 that, Christine or Scott?
11 MS. LIPA: The way these items are 12 listed they are called insights, but three of them 13 almost seem like problems they found, whereas that 14 that youre pointing to is almost like a problem that 15 they know is true that you need to have strong 16 management and leadership to have these positive 17 things, so it is kind of -- so it doesnt match with 18 the rest of them, but my understanding is similar to 19 Bills, and obviously as you heard us talk up here, 20 and we challenged the Licensee and that up here 21 today, what are you doing and when you are going to 22 have more of a concrete -- so this is an area we 23 spent more time on and we cant say much more today.
24 MR. DEAN: Scott, do you have 25 anything?
MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
23 1 MR. THOMAS: No, I mean, I agree 2 with your assessment.
3 MR. WHITCOMB: Okay. The next 4 question I have is at the last meeting there was some 5 talk about some criminal investigations that were 6 underway at Davis-Besse. Is there any status --
7 updated status that you can provide to the public 8 tonight regarding where were at with those criminal 9 investigations?
10 MR. DEAN: Again, all that I know 11 is that theyre still ongoing. Those are, I think 12 we discussed at the last meeting, actually there were 13 several different investigations that were going on.
14 One was investigation of NRCs own Inspector 15 General which looks at NRC staff activities and 16 performance.
17 Another investigation involving our office of 18 investigations which looks at Licensee performance 19 issues, and, other than that, generally those 20 investigations are fairly closely held. There 21 hasnt been any investigation until they feel that 22 theyre ready to come forth with their findings.
23 MR. MENDIOLA: Additionally, there 24 is, of course, Congressional investigation going on 25 by the House Committee and Energy and Commerce, and MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
24 1 we have been currently involved, if you will, in the 2 fact-finding stage finding and providing documents to 3 that committee.
4 MR. WHITCOMB: Okay. Lastly, I 5 have a general comment, and since its being 6 transcribed, Id like to get it on the record. The 7 reason you folks are here tonight is because of an 8 event that happened at Davis-Besse, and you are 9 standing before us, sitting before us, the public, 10 and I guess to some degree, youre trying to either 11 maintain or regain public confidence in your 12 abilities as a regulatory agency.
13 I find it troubling, however, when we have 14 these meetings, particularly afternoon, the 15 Licensees here and the NRC is here. We are not 16 able to direct questions to the Licensee. I find 17 that troubling because it appears, at least for 18 myself, that youre running interference with First 19 Energy. I think that the public ought to have 20 unfiltered access to ask questions of the Licensee 21 because it is their mismanagement that has brought 22 all of this to light. Its not the NRC, per se, and 23 I feel that your requiring the public to direct 24 questions to the NRC is essentially running 25 interference and protecting the Licensee. Thank MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
25 1 you.
2 MR. DEAN: Thank you, Howard.
3 MR. LODGE: My name is Terry 4 Lodge, L-O-D-G-E.
5 Im not a local resident, but then I dont 6 know how you exactly define that term. I dont know 7 how far away from Davis-Besse makes you not local.
8 I have a number of observations and questions. Ive 9 read the three sets of questions the Union of 10 Concerned Scientist has postulated to the NRC.
11 One of things that jumps out at me in the 12 news coverage, in the presentations that Ive been to 13 and the UCS review of documents, as well as the 14 website that the NRC maintains is that theres a 15 condition that pertained for at least two and a half, 16 three years, perhaps even longer where radiation 17 monitor filters were disabled or at least required 18 replacement every 24 to 48 hours5.555556e-4 days <br />0.0133 hours <br />7.936508e-5 weeks <br />1.8264e-5 months <br /> instead of 19 annually or even -- or pardon me, instead of every 20 other month. That concerns me because as a 21 layperson my understanding is that those monitors 22 inside the containment would be violating 23 necessary -- in the event of a severe accident 24 scenario, any number of accident scenarios, it would 25 be necessary to know the levels of radiation MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
26 1 emanating from their reactor.
2 Ive reviewed and listened to the, what I 3 take to be the work plan, the checklist, the punch 4 list, that the NRC is following at this point, and I 5 think its rather superficial. Its -- it seems 6 basically aimed at insuring that theres good 7 engineering, but that many unanswered questions 8 appear at this point as overseen by this panel 9 destined to remain unanswered. The UCS has inquired 10 of the NRC about the status of a couple of 11 motor-operated valves that the bolts to which appear 12 to have been corroded away, perhaps probably by the 13 boric acid vapor exposure, the long-term exposure 14 within the containment. I know that there are miles 15 of cable, that there are numerous electrical 16 appliances, motors, devices, switches, all kinds of 17 things inside the containment building. Your focus 18 as regulators seem simply to be narrowly fixed on 19 making sure that if the Utility wants to put a new 20 head on that they do a good job. I am concerned as 21 the UCS is concerned, as the 14 -- 14 groups that 22 join the Union of Concerned Scientist in the petition 23 are concerned about the rest of the story, the other 24 things in the containment structure, prolonged 25 exposure to boric acid which is established certainly MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
27 1 can create corrosion problems beyond the bread box 2 hole in the head. We need to know everything before 3 the reactor is allowed to restart. The problem I see 4 this panel and, indeed, the NRC working itself into 5 is, the Utility in its own economic interest is 6 hurrying around post-haste trying to get that reactor 7 head down here, get that hole knocked inside of the 8 containment, get it installed, do all thats 9 necessary so that you can tee things up so that at 10 the first earliest possible moment that the NRC gives 11 the go ahead, they can go. Its costing serious 12 money, but it took years and, indeed, the Agency has 13 before it, well over a decades worth of serious 14 maintenance deferral neglect problems, of failures to 15 respond to NRC inquiries, apparent incomplete 16 inspection activities, tons of things, so the Utility 17 got itself into this miserable position because as it 18 admits there is not an evident questioning attitude 19 and decision making. Im sure that there is an 20 economic progma at work here, not a scientific 21 access.
22 So my question is, is as I think Mr. Whitcomb 23 underscored to you, are you leading, are you 24 following, or you just going to give the rubber stamp 25 of approval to good engineering, or are you going to MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
28 1 require some relevant scientific inquiry as well as 2 engineering into the precise status of this aging 3 reactor which has produced a most unique problem?
4 I have said it before to this panel -- well, 5 not to this panel, but to the NRC, this is an 6 evolving technology to start with and this is a novel 7 experiment within this evolving technology. The 8 problem is and the problem has been for more than a 9 quarter century that this evolving technology is out 10 in the environment sitting by Lake Erie. Thanks.
11 MR. DEAN: Terry, Ive got a 12 couple responses to some of your issues. The first 13 issue you raise relative to the radiation monitor and 14 filters and the fact that the Licensee was changing 15 them out every one to two days and your concern about 16 the volatileness of that act scenario, the filters or 17 the radiation monitors that were impacted were 18 radiation monitors are called air particular monitors 19 and basically they would draw a sample of the 20 airborne environment, ascertained if there was 21 airborne particular, airborne radiation, but those 22 arent the only radiation monitors that existed in 23 the tank, first of all. There are a number of area 24 radiation monitors that exists that would detect 25 increased levels of general radiation inside the MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
29 1 reactor. The Licensee has in the past been able to 2 draw samples out of the containment using portable 3 filters or portable monitors and ascertained the 4 airborne environment in the containment, so the issue 5 in terms of the volatileness of that radiation 6 monitoring or making a decision, for example, if 7 there were an accident, potential accident, 8 recommendations had to be made. There is a fairly 9 wide range of instrumentation that are available to 10 the Licensee to help them make that decision so that 11 instrument alone is not relied on to make that 12 decision, so relative to the potential for that 13 radiation monitor were to be become disabled during 14 an accident that that is not the sole instrument 15 available for that purpose.
16 MR. LODGE: Thank you. I 17 appreciate that response. As I understand it, 18 though, however, this particular accident scenario 19 has never been considered in the design basis, 20 accident possibilities for Babcock and Wilcoxs 21 reactor. Had there been a perforation in high 22 pressure geysers water shooting out of the reactor, 23 out of the head, you cant correctly or at least 24 authoritatively say that a great many of the features 25 you just described would have also been disabled.
MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
30 1 MR. DEAN: The -- well, in fact, 2 youre incorrect. The possibility of a LOCA in 3 containment certainly is within the bound of analysis 4 and this would have been a LOCA on top of the reactor 5 vessel, okay? Thats not -- thats within the 6 mounting analysis from a large double ended sheer of 7 huge 36 inch reactor hot lake pipes to small 8 perforations or at least from small penetrations, 9 that whole range of potential accidents are bounded 10 by the analysis that exist for nuclear power plants, 11 so if they leak or rupture from the top of the vessel 12 head is within the analysis of the plants.
13 MR. MENDIOLA: (Nod indicating yes).
14 MR. LODGE: But is a LOCA of that 15 type analyzed in light of the possibility of 16 prolonged borated acid vapor exposure rusting valves 17 shut, for instance?
18 MR. DEAN: Well, now, Im not 19 exactly sure that I understand the question. Are 20 you postulating that all of the equipment in 21 containment wouldnt work because of this boric acid?
22 MR. LODGE: All or some.
23 MR. DEAN: The Licensee is 24 required by technical specifications to conduct 25 periodic surveillances of all of their safety MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
31 1 equipment on a fairly frequent basis depending on 2 what the equipment is, so that there is assurances 3 over time that all the safety equipment will, in 4 deed, perform as it is functioned, so, you know, its 5 hard to envision that the type of scenario that 6 youre postulating there to exist if the Licensee 7 were excluding their ongoing safety systems --
8 MR. LODGE: Do you feel that the 9 Licensee here was doing that?
10 MR. DEAN: Well, its something 11 that we -- that we inspect on an ongoing basis. We 12 look at their -- we sample their surveillances and 13 theyre testing, and, you know, I asked Christine and 14 Steve in terms of, you know, our assessment of the 15 license and ongoing surveillance programs and safety 16 systems, but --
17 MR. LODGE: Well, but let me give 18 you some specifics.
19 In 1999, the pattern of daily replacement of 20 the filters is occurring. In 1999, the two cold 21 water valves are discovered to have bolts corroded 22 and apparently missing, I think, as to one of them.
23 Nobody puts two and two together? Theres nothing --
24 MR. DEAN: That was going to be 25 the second part of my response, that, indeed --
MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
32 1 MR. LODGE: Okay.
2 MR. DEAN: -- there were a number 3 of what do you want to call it, connect the dots that 4 the Licensee just didnt put together, and I think 5 those things that you -- that Howard went off 6 relative to attitude, lack of standards, so on, so 7 forth all contribute to why is it that the Licensee 8 didnt pull all of that information together, and as 9 I mentioned at the outset when we talked about this 10 afternoon meeting, the area were most interested in 11 as a regulator is the why? Why did we not have the 12 capacity to connect all those dots, and what does 13 that say about the culture that existed at this 14 plant, and what are you going to do about it to make 15 sure that that culture is not -- you know, is not 16 existent.
17 MR. LODGE: And what is the 18 Utility telling you about the culture that existed 19 and what are they intending to do about it?
20 MR. DEAN: Well, you heard Howard 21 read off what their initial insights are causes of 22 evaluation. As I mentioned at the beginning of the 23 meeting that there is a cause team looking at, if you 24 want to call it, the soft side management, 25 performance issues that are associated with this.
MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
33 1 Theyre still looking at that and they have like a 2 nine or 10 person Root Cause Team, combined people 3 from outside the organization, people from within the 4 organization, people that were associated with the 5 technical root cause evaluation, a fairly broad team, 6 including outside consultants that specialize in root 7 cause evaluation trying to pull that answer together, 8 and in our mind thats the most important answer that 9 were looking for.
10 MR. LODGE: Thank you.
11 MS. MIRINGU: Good evening.
12 MR. DEAN: If its easier for you 13 just to take it out and hold onto it, it might be 14 better.
15 MS. MIRINGU: My name is Beatrice 16 Miringu, and its spelled B-E-A-T-R-I-C-E, and my 17 last name is M-I-R-I-N-G-U. I was at the meeting 18 this afternoon, and one of the things that they did 19 say was they have past -- they have past -- in 20 planning part of their program and now they are at 21 the implementation stage, but when I look at the one 22 for Davis-Besse restart I think this is -- this is 23 what they -- this is where they should be, making 24 sure that all of these things are correct and 25 establishing that all these things are correct and MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
34 1 where they should be before they can talk of 2 implementing their plan, so what I want to hear from 3 this panel is whether maybe First Energy is 4 misleading us in saying that they are implementing 5 their plan when, indeed, you have it all -- all -- I 6 want to know whether you are aware of them 7 implementing yet on this checklist that you reviewed 8 today?
9 MS. LIPA: Yeah, I think I 10 understood the question because you asked a similar 11 one earlier and when the Licensee gave their 12 presentation today, I think I was a little surprised 13 the way they described it with the three things; I 14 think the first one was upon discovery and 15 implementation, and as we did talk to the different 16 plans, Im not sure Im convinced that they are at 17 implementation yet either, but thats why we are 18 continuing to have these monthly meetings, and they 19 are certainly not going to start up right away. We 20 have to have time to hash through all these plans and 21 the restart checklist to determine what actions were 22 going to take. Were going to be monitoring what 23 they do. Were going to be doing very specific 24 inspections. Were going to be publishing inspection 25 reports, so its not really determined in my mind MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
35 1 that they say they are implementing, because theyre 2 implementing portions, but I didnt see that as a 3 concern. Did I address your question?
4 MS. MIRINGU: Yes. The forth item 5 on the document, as a community member, how do I keep 6 from hearing these things on implementing, yet I 7 dont have the confidence that theyre doing what 8 they should have done for a very long time, so how --
9 how are you, as a panel, insuring that the community 10 develop confidence?
11 MS. LIPA: Well, thats a good 12 question, too, and thats part of the reasons why 13 were having these meetings here in this community.
14 Other plants in the past, they had some near Chicago, 15 some near the headquarters from here. Were trying 16 to have most of them here because we understand its 17 important to the local community.
18 The other thing is were going with a daytime 19 meeting and evening meeting to try to catch whoever 20 is interested that cant come during the day because 21 theyre working, I know, so this way they have two 22 choices. Were trying to continue to have them 23 ongoing. We have information available on our 24 website. Were trying to do as much interaction 25 with the Licensee out in the public so you can follow MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
36 1 along with what were doing, but you probably wont 2 see much submitted from the Licensees side other 3 than whats on our website that they have submitted 4 as far as initial correspondence. Thats all on our 5 website, and a lot of this is stuff theyre doing and 6 stuff were looking at, so there wont be a lot of 7 results for you to independently check. Do you want 8 to answer that?
9 MR. DEAN: Not at this point.
10 MS. LIPA: Eventually, we will be 11 doing our inspection. Well document those reports.
12 There will be published results. There just hasnt 13 been much yet, I understand that.
14 MS. MIRINGU: The other thing is to 15 inform the public about these meetings. We need 16 time, two weeks at least to know that a meeting is 17 coming up, so I would ask that this panel make sure 18 that communities have enough time from the time there 19 meetings are announced to the time when they actually 20 take place.
21 MS. LIPA: Well, and our policy is 22 to put a meeting notice out 10 days ahead of time.
23 MR. DEAN: At least.
24 MS. LIPA: At least, and I know 25 that for each of the meetings we have had pretty MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
37 1 widespread, at least through the Press, that they 2 have been aware of our -- the dates for our next 3 meeting. Our plan is to put on our website the date 4 of the next meeting -- we dont have it yet, but as 5 soon as we have that firmed up, we try to get that 6 information out to the public.
7 MS. MIRINGU: Thank you.
8 MS. LIPA: Does anybody else have 9 anything?
10 MR. HELD: My question is, what 11 assurance do we have that after all this monkey 12 business is gone through and you do get the thing 13 working again, what assurance do we have that you 14 wont do it again? Thats all I have to ask.
15 MR. DEAN: Sir, can we -- just 16 for the purposes of the record --
17 MR. HELD: Pardon me? Im hard 18 of hearing.
19 THE REPORTER: Your name?
20 MR. DEAN: Could you provide your 21 name in the microphone?
22 MS. LIPA: Yeah, can we get you 23 to state your name?
24 MR. HELD: Ive got it written 25 down.
MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
38 1 MS. LIPA: Yeah, but just state 2 it and spell it for us.
3 THE REPORTER: Just tell me your 4 name.
5 MR. HELD: Pardon me?
6 THE REPORTER: Your name?
7 MR. HELD: My name?
8 THE REPORTER: Yes.
9 MR. HELD: Russ Held.
10 THE REPORTER: Okay.
11 MR. HELD: Okay?
12 THE REPORTER: Thank you.
13 MR. HELD: Thank you.
14 MS. LIPA: Well, and thats a 15 good question, and I know we talked a bit today 16 about -- the Licensee talked about they recognized 17 the importance of putting into place corrective 18 actions that are lasting corrective actions, and, 19 certainly, its our intent to really understand what 20 the root causes were, and if we really have a good 21 understanding of what the root causes are, then we 22 can understand how the corrective actions match the 23 root causes and whether thats really going to 24 correct the problem, so thats the challenge that we 25 have as a panel is to assess that.
MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
39 1 THEREUPON, Mr. Jacobson conferred with Ms.
2 Lipa.
3 MS. LIPA: Yeah, the other part 4 is we do have a -- the Agency has a task force that 5 was established in April or May, and they are doing 6 an independent look at the Agencys activities over 7 the years and what we have done and what we need to 8 do, if there is anything we can learn from this 9 condition to alter our inspection plans going 10 forward, so thats another piece to the puzzle.
11 Did anybody else want to add anything?
12 Thats a good question.
13 MR. DEAN: One thing Id like to 14 offer and -- and I think Howard was kind of hitting 15 on this a little bit earlier in terms of, okay, there 16 was this event, a Licensee is -- is extending a lot 17 of effort and money and resources and trying to 18 understand and correct the issues and so on, so 19 forth. The NRC has reacted pretty aggressively 20 because of the fact that you have this thing that 21 perhaps somebody somewhere should have put together 22 and, you know, theres a piece of the NRC regulation 23 and a big piece, you know, of not understanding and 24 being able to thumble through this issue before it 25 got to where it did, and so were spending a lot of MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
40 1 efforts and the Task Force is trying to help us 2 figure what can we do better, you know, what mistakes 3 do we as a regulator make, and so attitude and 4 response on the part of the Agency, I think, is 5 helpful. Okay? Mistakes may have been made, and 6 so we have to figure out what those mistakes were and 7 why were they made so that we can improve our 8 processes or we can improve our training or whatever 9 needs to be improved to assure that something like 10 this doesnt happen again.
11 Now, is that a guarantee that theres not 12 going to be an event somewhere -- somewhere else?
13 Thats not a guarantee of that, but it does -- I 14 think it should at least provide you some confidence 15 that we, as a regulator, and we, as the organization, 16 is responsible for assuring public health and safety 17 relative to operation of our power plants are trying 18 to take an aggressive self-powerful look at ourselves 19 so that something like this doesnt happen, so -- we 20 can at least provide you with that insight, and I 21 will say, you know, there are real people on this 22 stage, okay, and are people that have dedicated their 23 career here at the NRC to assuring public health and 24 safety, and I can assure you that we take it as a 25 very, very serious responsibility. I mean, Scott MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
41 1 Thomas, Senior Resident Inspector, who lives in the 2 vicinity of the plant; John, down at Perry, he lives 3 in the same area of the plant. He certainly was 4 planning to operate safely, and thats why we have, 5 you know, inspectors and inspection programs and why 6 we have resident inspectors at the sites to monitor 7 what the Licensee does on a daily basis and why we 8 have the overall inspection program that inspects the 9 plant operations and engineering to insure ourselves 10 that the plant is -- that the plants are doing the 11 things theyre supposed to, to maintain public health 12 and safety, so it would be great if we had a larger 13 budget and more people and, you know, could watch 14 everything that the Licensee does 24 hours2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br /> a day, but 15 we dont have the capability to do that so we have to 16 be smart in the way we do that oversight, and thats 17 why something like this in our efforts to try to 18 understand why did this happen will help us do a 19 better job of regulating the future.
20 MR. WHITCOMB: Howard Whitcomb, 21 again. Miss Miringu raised an issue I would like to 22 at least make a comment. Im not a computer whiz, 23 but I do hire a computer whiz. In accessing the NRC 24 database, apparently is a science in and of itself.
25 I am of the old guard where we used to have public MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
42 1 document rooms that no longer exist. Perfect 2 example is the transcript from the June 12th meeting.
3 I understand its in the system, but its almost 4 impossible to download, okay, so access to that 5 information, you folks make believe that us, the 6 public have access, immediate access to that is not 7 true, and that needs to be carried back. I have 8 tried and I contacted the -- I guess the main PDR for 9 the NRC in Washington. Those folks are helpful, but 10 theyre also extremely frustrated because they are 11 having the same types of problems that the users, 12 apparent users, are having out in the field, so I 13 think it is important to know that the public 14 document rooms used to have a lot more correspondence 15 between the NRC and the Licensee, in fact, all of the 16 docketing correspondence was maintained in the PDR.
17 Its not accessible on the website, so there is a 18 much more limited access to that information. Id 19 ask you to bring that back to your folks, see if 20 there is some way we can somehow manage that 21 information better.
22 MR. PICKETT: Howard, just make sure 23 I understand, the transcripts should be available on 24 our website.
25 MR. WHITCOMB: Yes.
MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
43 1 MR. PICKETT: If youre trying to 2 click on the website and download?
3 MR. WHITCOMB: They wont download.
4 You cant get them to print out.
5 MR. PICKETT: Okay. I have read the 6 transcript, its 256 pages, and I can imagine its a 7 bear to try to download that, and this is the first 8 Ive heard that the public cant quite get to it. We 9 made it available to the public and if you cant get 10 to it --
11 MR. WHITCOMB: I understand -- I 12 understand that thats what the frustration is. I 13 dont know that too many -- I mean, for instance, in 14 public -- or, in Oak Harbor we have the public 15 library. We have a number of facilities, a number of 16 the computer stations, but to sit down and read the 17 document in its entirety is going too exceed all of 18 their time limits for the users, okay, so I mean 19 downloading it and printing it out, I think is what 20 most reasonable people would do. They dont charge 21 very much. Its only a nickel a copy or a page or 22 something of that nature, so you could get it 23 relatively cheaply, but you cant sit there and read 24 256 pages all at one sitting without bumping into 25 their time limits, so what Im saying is from a MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
44 1 practical standpoint while you have it on the 2 Internet, on the website, it isnt really practical.
3 MR. PICKETT: You cant get it to.
4 MR. WHITCOMB: Right, exactly.
5 MR. MENDIOLA: Even if you can get 6 to it you cant print it.
7 MR. WHITCOMB: Well, thats what my 8 experience has been with that particular document, is 9 I havent been able to print it out.
10 MR. MENDIOLA: I would estimate that 11 the one we have from this afternoon would be as long, 12 if not longer.
13 MR. WHITCOMB: Probably longer.
14 MR. MENDIOLA: And probably just as 15 difficult to print it. Well take a look at that and 16 see if we can do anything with it, but were limited 17 by the technology that we have and were victims of 18 the same technology. Maybe we can make it in 19 smaller files.
20 MR. WHITCOMB: Well, I dont know.
21 Is it the ADAMS system, is that what the acronym is?
22 MR. MENDIOLA: Yes.
23 MR. WHITCOMB: It aint working?
24 MR. MENDIOLA: Well, Im sorry, 25 youre talking about the ADAMS system?
MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
45 1 MR. WHITCOMB: Im saying the ADAMS 2 system generally, is that the system that you 3 maintain all of your documentation --
4 MR. MENDIOLA: Right, ADAMS is our 5 document system, but the transcript Im told is only 6 on the website right now.
7 MR. WHITCOMB: Right. Now, I 8 understand, but thats two separate issues, but, I 9 mean, the other is just trying to access just the 10 regular documentation that normally is communicated 11 between the site and the NRC which is open to the 12 public, Im not talking about any proprietary 13 information. Im talking about correspondence that 14 typically would be open and available as part of the 15 Licensee.
16 MR. DEAN: Yeah, I would offer 17 in that regard, Howard, first of all, interact with 18 the public document room is good and hopefully, they 19 can direct you if youre having some issues. I 20 would think on ADAMS, if you were to search on ADAMS 21 for, you know, Davis-Besse you ought to be able to 22 get a list of documents that have Davis-Besse title, 23 which would at least give you a start. I mean, Im 24 not very good at ADAM searches either.
25 MR. WHITCOMB: Well, unfortunately, MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
46 1 you have to use docketing numbers, which most of the 2 public doesnt have --
3 MR. DEAN: This gentleman behind 4 you was -- did you have another -- you were 5 frustrated the same way?
6 MR. YOUNG: The PDF file, 7 whatever it means, versus the text file if you can 8 deliver it in TXT you might have efficiency base 9 server as well.
10 MR. DEAN: Okay.
11 MR. YOUNG: And thats primitive 12 enough to handle just about any computer out there.
13 MR. DEAN: Okay. Anybody else 14 like to offer a comment or observation or question or 15 issue?
16 MR. YOUNG: My name is Richard 17 Young. Everybody knows what happened also in 1992 18 where they had a study of manpower levels at the 19 station conducted by Tim Martin. They reduced the 20 manpower significantly, and I didnt see many changes 21 improving that many advantages where the same level 22 of efficiency and much detail being maintained, so my 23 question is on the root cause the staffing versus 24 workload considered as a major factor in increasing 25 the likelihood of making inappropriate choices, MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
47 1 decisions or actions such as multiple simultaneity 2 improprieties, that kind of thing. Are they too 3 busy between 92 and now, it may have been a factor.
4 I dont know if they have identified that one or not.
5 MR. DEAN: Were doing that as 6 management and human performance and 7 organizational --
8 MR. YOUNG: Its too early to 9 ask, but I thought it might be a prompt.
10 MR. DEAN: I mean, certainly 11 thats a potential factor --
12 MR. YOUNG: About the study.
13 MR. DEAN: -- that we would look 14 for when the Licensee completes their root cause.
15 They havent got to that level of detail, I think, 16 but thats something --
17 MR. YOUNG: Ill be watching.
18 MR. DEAN: Keep your eyes open.
19 MR. YOUNG: Thank you very much.
20 MR. DEAN: Yes, maam? I saw 21 you edging up. There you go.
22 MS. KOCHER: Yes, Im Cheryl 23 Kocher. Im from Port Clinton, and I was here two 24 meetings ago, and I questioned you about the 25 particles that were taken on the workers because the MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
48 1 monitors werent working correctly at Davis-Besse, 2 and I -- Im asking this because Im a health 3 professional, and I work -- Im a dental hygienist, 4 and I have a degree to teach dental hygiene also, and 5 Im questioning a change in a lot of my patients 6 thyroid medication in the last couple of years.
7 Probably 10 to 20% per day when Im doing med 8 history -- I have to take medical histories of their 9 medicines and see if they have changed, you know, 10 before we can work, and so Im very interested in 11 this, and what I was questioning is, when I came to 12 you, I was wondering why no one has checked to see if 13 other workers that were also working in that same 14 containment area were notified that these particles 15 could have gone to their homes? I dont understand 16 why someone, and I assume -- I dont know -- I went 17 to you once. I dont know who is the governing body 18 that should be following this up because no one knows 19 if there were 400 particles walked out the door, we 20 dont know, and there are people in this community 21 that very well could have taken them into their 22 homes.
23 Someone and not Davis-Besse -- I dont want 24 First Energy to be monitoring this, but I dont know 25 who it is that would go in and check this, and I MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
49 1 dont know if its you.
2 MR. DEAN: Okay. Let me --
3 actually, Im going to ask you, Christine, or, Scott, 4 maybe to address the issue about monitoring. My 5 understanding is that after some of these issues came 6 to light, the Licensee went back and evaluated a 7 number of people that had the potential to be 8 exposed, to check, you know, their occupational of 9 the age of the exposure on the order of 40 or 50 10 people.
11 MS. KOCHER: Well, interesting, 12 because I have a 20 year old patient that came in and 13 hes now working at a marina, and I asked him where 14 do you work -- he said, well, Im working at a marina 15 now.
16 I used to work at Davis-Besse, and I got laid 17 off and now Im working here, and so I was 18 questioning this way they check you in and out, and 19 he explained there were two times that they 20 supposedly checked you, and they would brush it off, 21 and then they could leave, is this correct? This is 22 what he said to me, flick it off --
23 MR. DEAN: No.
24 MS. KOCHER: I didnt understand 25 what he meant, but maybe it never happened, I dont MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
50 1 know, but, anyway, point being, he never was -- I 2 said, well, did you realize -- and he was working 3 there when this all happened, and I said did you 4 realize -- I mean when the workers went in, I said, 5 did you ever realize that the monitors werent 6 working, and he goes, what? And I said has anyone 7 contacted you that -- you know, there were particles 8 that were taken out that people didnt know about, 9 and he didnt know -- and this is another point that 10 is real big to me. You wonder why people arent here 11 from our community, we dont get much information, 12 and looking back through -- thank goodness we have 13 the website to go to, and for local people, Howard, I 14 dont know if this is for you, to go to Googles.com 15 and type in Davis-Besse, and you can get The New York 16 Times articles, you can get The Wall Street Journal 17 articles, you can get pictures. I mean, theres a 18 lot there, but our local television stations and 19 newspapers, the headlines sometimes, you know, for 20 something this big that happened in our community, to 21 me, it should have been this big (indicating) in our 22 newspaper, and it was usually like down here and the 23 principal was up here, which was a big thing to us, 24 but this is huge. This was a huge thing, and thats 25 why -- dont judge whats going on. Remember, MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
51 1 theres a lot of people that when we talk about this 2 out in the open, I mean, just in someones home, they 3 just dont know to be here, and then they get -- I 4 mean, they would be concerned, so we have to rely on 5 you. Youre our only link. First Energy isnt 6 here, and if OSHA would come into our dental office 7 and see that our autoplate wasnt working, but we 8 could say to them, well, you know, in two months 9 were going on vacation, so if its okay, can we fix 10 it then? You know, theyd close us up in a second, 11 and none of you that get work done would, I mean, 12 youd be really upset if you ever found out that a 13 Government agency could be pushed. You should be 14 doing your job. Thats why youre here, and if you 15 have to tell them they are doing something wrong, 16 please do it. This is all were asking. Thank 17 you.
18 THEREUPON, there was an applause by the 19 audience.
20 MR. DEAN: Let me just take the 21 opportunity, though, to share with you -- you can go 22 ahead and sit down. Yesterday I went through the 23 containment with Scott and John, walked through the 24 containment, looked at the damage to the reactor 25 vessel head and looking at what they are doing MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
52 1 relative to trying to identify some of the things in 2 the containment and just trying to get a good sense 3 of, you know, what did it look like, what were they 4 doing, what do they still have left to do, so on, so 5 forth, and I just want to spend like maybe two or 6 three minutes describing the process that I had to go 7 through relative to radiation protection. Okay?
8 The first thing I had to do was I had to go 9 to an administrative building and get whats called a 10 whole body -- you stand inside this monitoring device 11 and basically what they are trying to get a sense of 12 -- well, before you even go into the plant what is 13 your base line, you know, radioactive composition 14 basically in your body, so I did that, and then to 15 get into the particle plant where you do have 16 radiation protection, first of all, I had to dress 17 out in bleak anti-contamination clothing, so -- its 18 a full yellow suit with booties on both shoes, two 19 sets of gloves, rubber boots on each foot, and that 20 was just to walk through the general containment.
21 MR. THOMAS: Bill, you forgot 22 the --
23 MR. DEAN: Thats right, Scott.
24 Thank you. I had to stop and get two forms of 25 dosimeter. I had to get a dosimeter that you put MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
53 1 into a machine to ascertain how much radiation you 2 were exposed to, but also one that reads out 3 continuously so I can monitor the whole time Im in 4 there whether Im getting any undue exposure, okay, 5 so -- so thats the part going into the plant --
6 yeah, thats the part going into the plant. So now 7 Im in the plant. Im almost out. Ive got my 8 dosimeter and were walking around. We spent about 9 an hour walking around the containment, going up and 10 down ladders, looking at all sorts of things inside 11 the containment, so now, I have to come out of 12 containment. Well, they have this huge control point 13 and they have all these drums of where you take off 14 all the clothing, special clothing that you put on, 15 you put the gloves and booties in here and your hood 16 and overalls in here, and then you step out and then 17 you monitor yourself, go on these special monitors 18 where they read your -- you know, do you have any 19 contamination on your body now that youve taken all 20 this clothing off, and you have to go through several 21 sets of that before you even exit the building, so I 22 was monitored two or three times before I even was 23 allowed to leave that area of the plant where I could 24 go back on the clean side, so to speak, so --
25 MS. KOCHER: But if it showed up MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
54 1 on a workers clothing in South Carolina, but, you 2 know, Im just -- what I was wondering was who was --
3 I was going to check who is going to check this, I 4 mean, is this your job to go back --
5 MR. DEAN: Well, one of the 6 issues we had with the Licensee when this issue came 7 to light the fact that somehow these minute particles 8 got off site, okay, and what happens was they were 9 monitoring like I described my monitoring, they found 10 that they had contamination. They took all of their 11 clothes off, okay?
12 MS. LIPA: Most of them.
13 MR. DEAN: Most of them, and 14 then they marched them over to the building where 15 they got the whole body count and they tried to 16 assess did they have intake cause their concern was 17 did I breath in something, did I ingest something, 18 and, if so, you know, they could do some things to 19 flush it out, so on, so forth, and so thats the 20 process that they went through, and, I think, if Im 21 not mistaken, the Licensee might have made in this 22 regard was that they assumed the individuals had 23 internal acquisition; is that right?
24 MS. LIPA: Right, so it masked.
25 MR. DEAN: So it masked the fact MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
55 1 that they might have had some small minute particles 2 on their shoes or something, so thats kind of how 3 these few particles got off site.
4 MS. KOCHER: But how do you know 5 how few?
6 MR. DEAN: Well, you have to go 7 back and do an assessment, and this is been part of 8 what the challenge is, you know, when these things 9 were finally discovered, they were finally discovered 10 when these individuals went to work at another plant 11 and they went through the same process I described, 12 and they found, hey, you have contamination, and 13 thats when the word got back to the Licensee and 14 thats where we had some challenges in trying to 15 convince Davis-Besse that this might have been their 16 issue, and so, but when you take a look at what was 17 remaining -- so this was like a month later, what was 18 the composition of these particles, what was the 19 intensity of them, and then you can make some 20 judgment working backwards as to what actually was --
21 escaped the plant and our assessment to this point 22 was, we havent completed our analysis, but our 23 assessment to this point was that very, very small 24 levels, levels to the degree that even if all of the 25 material was -- if somebody, for example, laid in the MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
56 1 bed that this one guy laid in and breathed in all the 2 material that it would be extremely minimal exposure, 3 well below -- I think below the limits, so -- but 4 theres a challenge of doing that analysis and thats 5 kind of what were trying to work with the region in 6 trying to find out how bad could that have been 7 knowing all that. Okay?
8 MR. THOMAS: If you have another 9 question, please ask it.
10 MR. DEAN: Yeah, please dont 11 hesitate to ask a question if you have one.
12 MR. THOMAS: If I could add just 13 one thing, I believe one of your questions was, how 14 can we determine the number of people that may 15 have -- well, as part of the inspection, it appears 16 that due to the type of contamination they can 17 isolate it to a specific activity, and, based on 18 that, they can narrow who they followed up on, so I 19 dont know if that helps at all.
20 MS. LIPA: Yeah, let me just add a 21 couple things, because I think I spoke with you in 22 May, Cheryl, and at that time I told you that I had 23 been in containment before this whole thing was 24 identified, and based on my understanding of the 25 problem, its kind of like the people past -- they MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
57 1 went to monitor No. 1, and monitor No. 1 said there 2 maybe was a problem, so then they went to monitor No.
3 2, and monitor No. 2 was where the issue was where it 4 wasnt working properly, but everybody who got 5 through monitor No. 1 said you were clean, you were 6 clean, so I knew I had been through monitor 1 and I 7 was clean, so the issue is more with these people who 8 had potentially internally something in their nose, 9 like Scott said, they were able to tell from the 10 characterization of the particles, it was people 11 working on this particular job, so Im pretty sure 12 when they went back and pieced it altogether, they 13 figured out what was the potential scope of people 14 affected, but I think, based on my understanding Im 15 not concerned that everybody who passed through 16 monitor No. 1 is a potential particle carrier. Its 17 more the people who set off monitor No. 1 and how 18 thoroughly were they assessed when they went over and 19 had this more extensive assessment. I dont know if 20 that helps?
21 MS. KOCHER: Im just saying that 22 most of the workers walked through the monitor --
23 MS. LIPA: You had to go through 24 monitor -- even back then, you had to go through 25 monitor No. 1, everybody does. If you set off MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
58 1 monitor No. 1, set off that alarm, they would send 2 you somewhere else, and theres a small number of 3 people that fell into that category.
4 MR. DEAN: Okay. And, Cheryl, 5 if youre interested in chatting some more when were 6 done here, well be more than happy.
7 Is there anybody else that would like to chat 8 with us?
9 MR. LODGE: Terry Lodge, again.
10 I have a question that the Union of Concerned 11 Scientists letter, dated the 15th of July, I dont 12 know if youve seen it, mentions the possibility of 13 microbes and the fact that water has penetrated 14 the bifold barrier. Im curious to know if the 15 ground water is going to be the ground water in the 16 vicinity of containment is monitored for the presence 17 of radiation, and, if not, is it going to be, and Id 18 also like to know what -- what can be done about the 19 seepage problem? As I understand it, it is -- it is 20 a rather endemic problem when you have concrete types 21 of porous materials and that it isnt necessarily 22 going to be easily resolved. It is something that is 23 rather widespread in the industry, a cracked reactor 24 agent.
25 MR. DEAN: Let me take a shot MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
59 1 first at the issue of the hyperorganism induced 2 corrosion --
3 MR. LODGE: Correct.
4 MR. DEAN: Okay, and this issue 5 was raised with the Licensee today in the meeting and 6 they assured us that they have -- they are testing 7 and evaluating the ground water that does exist 8 around the containment for that particular issue, so 9 well wait and see what their test show, and on the 10 second issue, I guess is more of a generic issue of 11 ground water. I guess, first of all, I think most 12 sights, if not all have smaller wells that are dug, 13 the various parts so they can sample the ground water 14 surrounding the plant, ascertain it if there is some 15 radiation if thats perhaps being leached in the 16 ground water, and thats true of all the plants.
17 MR. THOMAS: Thats true.
18 MR. DEAN: So that -- relative 19 to your question about radioactive to ground water, 20 thats something that has to be monitored through the 21 Licensee and probably by the monitoring program.
22 Relative to the issue of ground water and 23 impact on concrete basemats, things like that, I 24 guess Im not -- Im not knowledgeable too much about 25 that other than the fact that I was involved at MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
60 1 Millstone several years ago when they had that 2 question about basemat, and my understanding was that 3 issue was -- was resolved to the satisfaction of our 4 technical staff, though, it did -- it was a difficult 5 question to answer.
6 MR. LODGE: How was it resolved 7 at Millstone?
8 MR. DEAN: I cant remember. I 9 think the Licensee, you know, they had to provide us 10 some information regarding, for example, 11 concentration of the aggregate or whatever was in the 12 concrete in the basemat, and, you know, take samples 13 of the surrounding area and provide us some 14 engineering analysis relative to, you know, what did 15 that mean in terms of percent degradation on the 16 basis of capacity and certain level of degradation, 17 being able to stand -- etc., etc., but, other than 18 that, I mean, Im just -- thats -- youve plumbed 19 the depth of my knowledge on this one.
20 MS. LIPA: I did have a question 21 for you, though. Earlier, and I meant to ask this 22 then, you raised a couple of questions, I dont know 23 if we answered all of them, but one of them you 24 referred to was, you said something to the effect 25 that the Utility or, you know, NRC, Im not sure MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
61 1 which, had been deferring maintenance or cancelling 2 inspections -- can you repeat that question or that 3 statement?
4 MR. LODGE: I dont know if I can 5 repeat the statement. What I was talking about was, 6 as I understand it, as early as the 1990s, the 7 Utility was talking about removing the installation 8 and did not for cost reasons and was also going to 9 cut larger view holes in that structure.
10 MS. LIPA: Right.
11 MR. LODGE: And did not.
12 MS. LIPA: Okay. Yeah, those 13 are the modifications, and youre right, we got into 14 that on the AIT inspection on April 5th where they 15 were -- Scott showed you the small mouse holes, five 16 by seven and three by five --
17 MR. LODGE: Right.
18 MS. LIPA: -- and the Licensee 19 had it on the books to cut larger openings and do a 20 more thorough inspection and more thorough cleaning, 21 and that mod had been deferred, but that was the 22 Licensees decision. It was their own internal 23 process. It had nothing to do with NRC, and I didnt 24 know if your question was talking about NRC or the 25 Licensee.
MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
62 1 MR. LODGE: But if the Utility 2 indicates the Agency is going to do something like 3 that --
4 MS. LIPA: But they --
5 MR. LODGE: -- and then does 6 not --
7 MS. LIPA: But they didnt 8 even -- but we werent part of that process. It was 9 an initiative that they were considering, and they 10 had some basis for doing it and apparently through 11 the mod review, they decided not to do it and thats 12 one of our issues, you know, if you seen the AIT 13 report which is published, we call that missed 14 opportunities in there and why that mod was deferred.
15 MR. LODGE: Okay, thank you.
16 MS. LIPA: Thank you.
17 MR. DEAN: Anybody else?
18 What time does the fair close down?
19 (Laughter).
20 Okay. If theres nobody else, the panel 21 members will certainly loiter in the area. If 22 anybody has any particular questions that theyd like 23 to ask anybody personally.
24 We appreciate you coming out tonight and 25 sharing your time with us. Hopefully were able to MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
63 1 provide some information to you and give you a sense 2 of our dedication and desire to assure you have 3 confidence in the regulatory. Thank you very much.
4 5
6 7 THEREUPON, the hearing was adjourned.
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900
64 1 CERTIFICATE 2 STATE OF OHIO )
) ss.
3 COUNTY OF HURON )
4 I, Marlene S. Rogers-Lewis, Stenotype Reporter 5 and Notary Public, within and for the State aforesaid, duly commissioned and qualified, do hereby 6 certify that the foregoing, consisting of 63 pages, was taken by me in stenotype and was reduced to 7 writing by me by means of Computer-Aided Transcription; that the foregoing is a true and 8 complete transcript of the proceedings held in that room on the 16th day of July, 2002 before the U.S.
9 Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
I also further certify that I was present in 10 the room during all of the proceedings.
11 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand 12 and seal of office at Wakeman, Ohio this day of
, 2002.
13 14 15 Marlene S. Rogers-Lewis Notary Public 16 3922 Court Road Wakeman, OH 44889 17 My commission expires 4/29/04 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MARLENE S. ROGERS-LEWIS & ASSOC. REPORTERS (419) 929-0505 (888) 799-3900