ML20204F226
| ML20204F226 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Millstone  |
| Issue date: | 01/11/1999 |
| From: | NRC |
| To: | |
| References | |
| NUDOCS 9903250239 | |
| Download: ML20204F226 (183) | |
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VERBATIM PROCEEDINGS NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION MEETING IN THE MATTER OF NORTHEAST UTILITIES, j 1
MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 0
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U JANUARY 11, 1999 i
1 WATERFORD TOWN HALL lr O 15 ROPE FERRY ROAD f WATERFORD, CONNECTICUT i '
g a g(Ol ji u4 U POST REPORTING SERVICE
,cy HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 y ,U ,'. J 3 9903250239 990111 PDR ADOCK 05000336 ,
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MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 JANUARY 11, 1999 1 . . . Verbatim Proceedings of the Meeting 2 of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission in
'3 the matter of Northeast Utilities, Millstone Units 2 4 and'3, held on January 11, 1999, at 7:00 P.M., at the 5 Waterford Town Hall, 15 Rope Ferry Road, Waterford, 6 Connecticut. . .
7 8
9 4 10 CHAIRPERSON WAYNE LANNING: Okay, ladies 11 and gentlemen. I think we'll begin our meeting. We
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12 don't have the benefit of the Court Reporter tonight.
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13 But the meeting is being recorded by others. And so 14 we'll use that as the record.
15 My name is Wayne Lanning and I'm 16 Director of Inspections for Millstone. I'm out of the 17 Region 1, King-of-Prussia office. And I welcome you to l 18 this meeting. This is a periodic meeting that we, the
-l. 19 NRC, have with you, the public, to give you a status of 20 NRC activities as they relate to Millstone and give you O
. 21 a status of restart activities regarding Unit 2 and l
' h' l 22 also give you tonight a status of Unit 3 since our last l 23 meeting.
24 Let me first introduce to you other (v"\ POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 k
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3 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3
( JANUARY 11, 1999 1 members of the staff who are here tonight. On my left 2 is Bill Dean. Bill is the Director of Projectors out 3 of Headquarters Office.
4 On my immediate right is Mr. Hub Miller.
5 Hub is Regional Administrator responsible for 6 inspecting all the nuclear power plants in the 7 Northeast.
8 And next to Hub is Gene Imbro. Gene is 9 Director of ICAVP out of the Headquarters Office. And 10 he provides oversight of the ICAVP program. That's the !
R 11 Independent Corrective Action Verification Program. l' 12 If I use an acronym that you're not j
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13 familiar with -- this is an informal reeting. Our 14 purpose is to communicate with you. So just raise your i 15 hand when I use these acronyms.
16 Also with us tonight is Jacque Durr.
17 Jacque is the B: tch Chief that the residents report.
l 18 We have the Senior Residents, Dave Beaulieu and Tony 19 Cerne and Steve Jones.
h 20 So, with that, I think I've introduced r
O
. 21 all the staff. Let me jrat outline the agenda that we l
= 22 hope to cover tonight. I will provide you with a
! 5 l l 23 summary of today's meeting we had with Northeast 24 Utilities and summarize some of the important O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
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4 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 I JANUARY 11, 1999 1 activities that have occurred at Units 2 and 3.
2 I will then summarize the process that l 3 is used to respond to the Office of Inspector General 4 report. I'm sure many of you have read the press 5 articles regarding this report in various newspapers.
6 So I think it's important that you understand how this 7 process transpires from here, 8 And then we will -- Bill Dean will give 9 you a status of the activities regarding the Safety-10 Conscious Wo A Environment. And then Gene Imbro will 11 give us a summary of the Independent Corrective Action
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12 Verification Program. Both of those presentations will
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13 be about ten minutes, five to ten minutes. We hope to
! l 14 keep the presentations very short. i 15 Following Gene's presentation, if there 16 are questions regarding our inspection reports that 17 we've issued recently, we'll respond to those at that i 18 time.
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. 19 Followed by that, we'll take a short l
I i
e 20 break. When we reconvene, we'll go into our general O l
. 21 question-and-answer session. Let me remind you of our b
g 22 process that we use to conduct these meetings; to try to )
l 23 be fair to all and cover all the topics in a timely 24 manner.
O POST REPORTING SERVICE j HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
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5 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3
() JANUARY 11, 1999 l
1 After the short presentation by the NRC i 2 staff, we'll spend about 30 minutes responding to 3 questions on that topic. Each person will be given 4 five minutes to ask his or her questions. And we will 5 try to give everybody an opportunity to ask their 6 questions during that 30 minutes. If, during the 30 7 minutes, we cover all the people who have asked the 8 first questions, we can repeat some of those questions 9 by individuals. If we don't cover everybody during 10 that 30 minutes, we'll still answer your questions 9 11 during the general question-and-a.iswer session.
12 So, with that, let me just talk a little 13 bit about today's meeting.
14 A VOICE: On the agenda, what time are 15 you stopping tonight? If we need to go extra --
16 CHAIRPERSCN LANNING: Well, we're 17 limited to the time that the custodian will let us use
! 18 th.is room tonight. That's generally been right around 1- 19 11:00.
20 A VOICE: Thank you.
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. 21 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Let me first sort
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22 of summarize some of the significant activities that E
l 23 have gone on at Unit 3. In -- last month, around the l
24 lith, Unit 3 tripped from 100-percent power. It was an
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POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
6 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3
) JANUARY 11, 1999 1 automatic reactor trip. This occurred while they were 2 doing surveillances on the main steam isolation valves.
3 As a result of that trip, they were shut 4 down for some -- about 20 days, thereabouts. They took 5 this opportunity to correct a number of deficiencies 6 and improve plant conditions and also implement a 7 design change that contributed to the MSI, the main 8 steam isolation valves going closed that resulted in 9 the reactor trip.
10 Unit 3 then restarted about the 30th of g 11 December .nd they were critical shortly there-- they 12 were critical on the 30th and they were at full power 13 around the 3rd of January and they've maintained full-14 power o,eration since that time.
15 Now, on the 4th, there was an 16 inadvertent release of some radioactive fluid from a 17 waste tank that I'm sure some of you read about that
! 18 description in the newspapers. That release occurred I. 19 as a result of some frozen pipe. And we'll talk more 20 about the significance of that, if you so choose, later O
. 21 on.
I 22 l
g But, in essence, this is really a State l 23 Department of Environmental Protection issue. It 24 really dealt with the fact that this material was O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
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7 g MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 g JANUARY 11, 1999 1 released at a point that really wasn't licensed by the 2 State. There is really no radiological hazard to the 3 public resulting from this release.
4 We'll talk a little bit about Unit 2.
5 Unit 2 is in the process of getting ready to restart.
6 We spent most of today's meeting talking about those 7 preparations. But on January the 6th, Unit 2 completed 8 reloading the core. What that means is they took the l
9 spent fuel pool from the spent -- took the fuel from 10 the spent fuel pool and moved it back into the reactor l.
l 11 vessel. This is in preparation for start-up. There's 12 a number of operational modes associated with this 13 evaluation prior to being ready to restart. That did 14 occur on January the 6th.
15 In today's meeting we talked in some i
16 detail about the recovery of Unit 2. NU management 17 provided an assessment of their operational readiness.
l l 18 They talked about the backlog. They talked about l
l
. 19 engineering analyses required, yet to be completed.
I e 20 They also talked about the regulatory readiness. By o
. 21 this I mean any technical specification changes 1
= 22 required to support restart. Also, readiness for a l 5 l 23 corrective action inspection. The staff does a 24 corrective action inspection. It's 4-0-500 inspection O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
r l 8 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3
() JANUARY 11, 1999 1 1 for those of you who remember that from our Unit 3 i 2 discussions. !
3 They have -- NU has indicated to us that 4 they're ready for this inspection. And we will begin 5 that inspection next week. And what that does, that 6 inspection focuses on how well they'r- implementing 7 their Corrective Action Program at Unit 2.
8 This provides one of several inputs into 9 the staff's assessment of their ability to identify, 10 correct and resolve deficiencies at the plant. It also 9 11 looks at the effectiveness of the Nuclear Oversight S
12 organization.
} And so it's a very important inspection.
13 It's really the first of several very important team "
14 inspections that will be coming forth in the next few 15 months.
16 They also talked about a number of key 17 technical issues that are not resolved yet, that
! 18 they're still working on. But they indicated to us
. 19 that the resolution of those issues were on track, were ir 20 being completed accc. 'ng their schedule.
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< 21 The Nuclear Oversight organization gave l=
22 its assessment of their independent oversight of I
l 23 activities that's being performed by the line 24 organization. The Nuclear Oversight organization O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
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9 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3
() JANUARY 11, 1999 1 provides independent assessment of processes that are 2 ongoing at the site. For example, they were intimately 3 involved with overseeing the refueling operations. And 4 they had some findings and suggestions for improvements 5 to line management as a result of that surveillance.
6 At Unit 3, we talked about the status of 7 Unit 3. As you may know, Unit 3 has experienced 8 several transients, experienced several forced 9 shutdowns during their start-up. We galked a little 10 bit about their integrated assessment of operations and j i
g 11 what that means and what their strategy is for
(] 12 improving operations at Unit 3.
\J 13 Unit 3 is going to be coming v' ;etting 14 ready for a refueling outage in May. We didn't get to 15 talk a lot about that schedule. But that is on the 16 horizon and that's something we'll talk about at our 17 next public meeting.
l 18 We discussed the backlog, the progress
. 19 that's being made in reducing the backlog. And this is 0 20 the backlog that remained after restart of Unit 3. We r
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. 21 talked about -- during our discussions of Unit 3, we
= 22 referred to that as the Deferred Items List. So they 5
l 23 had made commitments to the Commission regarding their 24 disposition of those items. And they are making l
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
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i 10 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 l
() JANUARY 11, 1999 l 1 progress in meeting their commitments.
2 And, finally, Unit 3, Oversight again 3 was evaluating the operations of Unit 3, looking at 4 self-assessments and their preparations for the outage.
5 And so they had a number of areas that they thought 6 Unit 3 was doing very well and there were others which 7 they needed a little additional time to demonstrate
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8 deficiencies and proficiencies in the processes.
9 So, in a nutshell, that's just an 10 overview of what we talked about today, big picture-11 wise. Now, do you --
12 MR. HUBERT MILLER: Let me --
13 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Okay. j 14 MR. MILLER: Let me just offer a couple j 15 of additional observations or comments. Last time I 16 was here -- I guess it was several months ago -- the 17 plant at that time had experienced -- this is Unit 3 l 18 now -- had experienced several equipment problems with
!. 19 took the plant off-line. And I mentioned at that time i
g 20 that that was very similar to what I had seen in other o
. 21 situations where a plant has been shut down for a long l= 22 and where a time plant is limited in terms of the 5
l 23 amount of testing it can do on the power conversion 24 part of a plant. Much of this outage -- these outagen
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POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
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11 l MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 i
l O annU^RT 11 1999
! 1 on Millstone have been focused on the safety systems, l
l 2 addressing engineering issues that have arisen 3 regarding the safety systems.
4 But there have been a number of plant 5 transients. I think a number of things are important 6 to point out in this regard. Our Resident Inspectors I
7 are here full-time for a lot of reasons, but one of the )
8 main reasons why we have Resident Inspectors at sites 9 is to be able to evaluate events as they happen, i
10 respond immediately when things occur, to, among other g 11 things, judge how well the licensee is dealing with l
- i 12 those -- with the events.
13 And in each of these cases, the 14 operators have responded well. The company has 15 exhibited in each case a conservative approach as 16 they've dealt with those issues. It has, though, 17 pointed out this -- it has pointed out some problems
! 18 with respect to equipment that need attention. And so
- i. 19 I was pleased to see that the company, after the last ir 20 transient, did keep the plant down to address issues o
. 21 beyond the specific problem that caused the plant
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22 scram. There were a number of operator work-arounds, 5
l 23 so-called, as equipment problems that can burden 24 operators if they're not attended to. While not
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12 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 i
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() JANUARY 11, 1999 l 1 necessarily large, each item, it is important to reduce 2 the number of equipment issue that exist at a plant to 3 make the operator's life as simple as it can be, to 4 reduce the burden on the operators.
5 We have continued to provide an extra 6 level of inspection at Millstone. And that is not just 7 with the expanded office here of Resident Inspectors, j 8 but it is also the specialists that come to the plant 9 from our regional office in Philadelphia and also the i 10 folks from the Washington office as well.
9 11 And then, beyond that, I had mentioned I 12 13 the last time I was here also that I feel important as a Senior Manager responsible for Millstone it very 14 to not just read inspection reports in Philadelphia but 15 to come to the plant myself personally from time to 16 time. And so I'm here not just for this meeting today, 17 this meeting this evening, but also to spend time at l 18 the plant tomorrow, to tour the plant and to talk to
. 19 people, talk to the operators directly, to go out into lr 20 the field and talk to people doing maintenance, to make O
. 21 -- you know, to directly observe what the status of the 22 programs here at Millstone are.
g l 23 I told the company today that it is 24 vital that they devote their resources and the j O POST REPORTING SERVICE l HAMDEN, CT (800) 26.2-4102 l 1 I i
I 13 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 () 7 ,s JANUARY 11, 1999 1 management attention certainly to a safe restart of 2 Unit 2 and that they need to take whatever time it 3 takes to do that properly. But, more important than 4 that, that they need to continue to devote the I i , 5 management attention and resources to the safe 6 operation of Unit 3. And it's my sense that they ) 7 understand that. It was a good exchange today. But it l 8 is through our inspections and through our observation l 9 of them operating the plant that we'll make -- we'll be 10 able to draw conclusions along that line. g 11 But in the end, the most important that 12 we do is the inspection work that we do. And that will 13 be the thing that will tell how well Northeast j 14 Utilities is doing. I 15 That's just a general kind of 16 observation that I think might be useful to you. 17 At this point, Wayne -- l 18 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Are there i
. 19 questions concerning today's meeting with NU? !g 20 Questions?
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. 21 Yes, sir. = 22 MR. MARK HOLLOWAY: Are we talking about 5
l 23 Unit 2? My name is Mike Holloway from Waterford, 24 Connecticut. l o'~ POST REPORTING SERVICE I HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 , i
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/' MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 i JANUARY 11, 1999 l
l 1 A VOICE: Please come to the mike. 2 MR. HOLLOWAY: Are we talking about Unit I
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( 3 2' I just walked all the way from Waterford, ! 1 4 Connecticut. 5 A VOICE: Move to the mike. l 6 MR. HOLLOWAY: Talking about Unit 2 at l 7 this juncture or can I address Unit 3 and 2 or both or 8 what? l 9 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Well, if you want 10 -- I'd like to limit it to areas that I just addressed
$ 11 and talked about in the introduction of today's i
(} 12 meeting. 13 MR. HOLLOWAY: Okay. Well, Mr. Miller 14 also addressed some issues. Okay. Go ahead. 15 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: l 16 MR. HOLLOWAY: Okay. When you're 17 looking at the -- you mentioned the deferred work
! 18 packages on Unit 3 that NU was working towards and you 19 mentioned that progress. In your estimation, has there ir 20 been sufficient progress or is there -- are they a o
21 little behind or a little ahead or how do you judge 1 22 that? l 23 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: My judgment is 24 that they are ahead of schedule. I think they have O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
r 15 g MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 g_) JANUARY 11, 1999 1 reduced -- I think there's commitment to reduce by one-i 2 fourth ne backlog by -- what was the date? l 3 MR. MILLER: End of last year, I 4 believe. 5 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: End of last year? 6 And they've reduced the backlog by almost 50 percent I 7 now, some of the items, ! 8 MR. HOLLONAY: So ahead of schedule on 9 the deferred items. 10 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: They're making j 11 significant progress in reducing the backlog. 12 MR. MILLER: But the important (]) thing 13 here is that not only do they have to deal with that 14 and meet the commitments that they made to the 15 Commission, but they also have emerging work. And so 16 it's going to be important for them to commit the 17 resources to not only address the issues that were left
! 18 over from restart but to -- every plant that operates k; 19 has issues that continually emerge. And so they have ir 20 to both deal with the old issues and keep up with the G
- 21 issues that are continuing to arise at the plant.
l 22 MR. HOLLOWAY: You've led me right into l b 23 my next question. When you're looking at the equipment 24 problems that they've been experiencing, I believe that l } l POST REPORTING SERVICE ! (800) 262-4102 HAMDEN, CT
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16 (~% MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 (_) JANUARY 11, 1999 1 there's been five shutdowns in the last 12 months. Is 2 that correct? 3 MR. MILLER: Six months. 4 MR. HOLLOWAY: Six months. Within the 5 last year. 6 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Right. 7 MR. HOLLOWAY: Since they restarted, 8 there have been five shutdowns. These equipment 9 problems that have occurred, were these problem that 10 only could be discovered during operability, full-scale j 11 operability, or were these problems that could have
/' 12 b) been discovered prior to full operations?
13 MR. MILLER: I think many of them -- 14 most of them were the kind that are not -- a number of 15 them were not discoverable except as you operate the 16 plant. They've had problems with the main steam 17 isolation valves in the past. And this was an issue
! 18 that they had made repairs on a number of times. And
- 19 on that particular problem -- and I'll just use that as 20 an example -- rather than do another repair, this time O
< 21 they made a modification to the solenoid valve. I l
22 don't want to get too technical here. But it's a l l b 23 solenoid valve and the actuation of the main steam 24 isolation valve. And they revised the design to get to POST REPORTING SERVICE l HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l 1
17 e MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 JANUARY 11, 1999 l 1 the root of the problem that had previously existed. l l 2 And so it's difficult to give a real 3 simple answer on something like this because each case l i' 4 is a bit different. But my experience has been -- our 5 experience has been really that with plants that have 6 been shut down for a period of time, you're always I 7 going to expect some problems coming up. And so the i 8 next question is what's the significance of these 9 things? i i 1 10 None of these -- none of these events ; ') 11 challenged the safety systems or involved failure of 12 the safety systems. The MSIV's and the MSIV failure l ({} 13 did cause a plant trip which you don't like to see. 14 Eut in terms of risk -- and we do look at risk -- it 15 wasn't appreciable risk resulting from this. That's 16 not to minimize the need for attention to the t 17 equipment.
! 18 And that's why I mentioned earlier we 1
- 19 had a lot of conversations with the company as they
)r 20 undertook this last outage, to get, you know, a sense o - 21 that they were doing more than just fixing the i
j 22 immediate problem that brought them down, that they're b 23 expending their efforts to address other equipment i f 24 issues. O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 1
1 18 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 ( JANUARY 11, 1999 1 MR. HOLLOWAY: And keeping on that -- 2 the work order issue, there was -- some time ago, there 3 was mention of a fact that there was a work order 4 package which -- at restart, which the NRC had wished ; 5 had been presented to them at that time and which 6 hadn't been and came at a later date. Remember that, 7 Mr. Lanning? 8 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: I think so. This I 9 was a number of engineering packages that were not 10 initially counted -- l 11 MR. HOLLOWAY: Yes. (} 12 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: -- as part of the 13 deferred list. Yes, sir. 14 MR. HOLLOWAY: For purposes of your 15 calculations, do you consider that part of the deferred 16 list or is that part of the -- is that part of the new 17 list?
! 18 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: It was counted as 19 part of the deferred list. There's like 170 of those ir 20 packages.
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- 21 MR. DEAN: 190.
k j 22 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: 190 of those l b 23 packages, which brings the total number of engineering 24 backlog to like 777. i c:) ! POST REPORTING SERVICE l HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 I
19 f ((_g) i4EETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 JANUARY 11, 1999 1 MR. HOLLOWAY: So when you -- 2 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: About 180 that we l 3 initially were told. 4 MR. HOLLOWAY: So when you speak of the 5 fact that they're halfway through that, you're 6 including that in your count? 7 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: I am. For 8 example, in June of '98 that number for engineering 9 backlog was 777, thereabouts. And by the end of 10 December, it was 615. Now that's not 50 percent. l 11 MR. HOLLOWAY: Right. 12 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: So they haven't f')) 13 made as much progress in reducing the engineering 14 backlog as they have reducing the corrective action 15 assignments. For example, in June there was a little 16 over 3900 deficiencies. And that number has been 17 reduced to a little over 2,000.
! 18 MR. HOLLOWAY: Thark you.
1 19 iRPERSON LANNING: C You bet. b r 20 Are there other questions? O
= 21 A VOICE: Good evening.
8 22 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Good evening. l b 23 A VOICE: However the last gentleman was l 24 asking, this issue came up today. I was talking to an O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 1 l J
I l 20 l MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 () JANUARY 11, 1999 l
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1 1 individual at the State bureaucracy about this very 2 issue about what does it mean that Millstone keeps 3 crashing, crashing, crashing, crashing? Or do I need 4 to say " crash" again? 5 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Forced -- 6 A VOICE: Because -- 7 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Forced shutdowns l 8 is the correct terminology. 9 A VOICE: Okay. Okay. Or mucked up. 10 Whatever. Something.
@ 11 And the issue came up because we were 12 told -- and I've heard this directly at our State
{} 13 Public Utility Control from both the Friends of Safe 14 Millstone and from Northeast Utilities executives -- 15 that Millstone 3 was re-equipped, redesigned, that this 16 is a new Millstone, that there is new management, that 17 "Our lessons have been learned and Millstone 3 is now I 18 ready to go and it's ready to run." 19 Now, typically, you expect a baseload ir 20 operating unit to go over 90 percent. It's kind of the O
= 21 definition of a baseload plant, which Millstone 3 is j 22 supposed to be. But this gentleman here, Mr. -- it it b 23 Mr. Miller? Is telling us that the experience at 24 Millstone 3 is very similar to others that have been O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
1. 21 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 l () JANUARY 11, 1999 1 out for a long time. I'm baffled here. Who is telling l 2 the truth? Is Mr. Miller telling the truth or has l l 3 Northeast Utilities been lying to our Department of l 4 Public Utility Control? And I also am told secondhand, 5 been lying to our individual legislators. 6 MR. MILLER: A couple of comments. I 7 think that perhaps the -- one of the most significant 8 issues at Millstone prior to the extended shutdown was 9 the failure to deal with things in a conservative way, 10 in a way that gets to the root of problems. And I
$ 11 think that one of the significant things coming out of 12 this outage, in addition to the fact
(]} that there have 13 been equipment problems which have brought the plant 14 off-line, is the decision-making that was done. 15 There was -- one of the shutdowns, the 16 controlled -- one of the first of the shutdowns was a 17 controlled shutdown, not an automatic shutdown. It was 5 18 to repair a leak on a steam -- a steam leak on one of I-19 the systems that, if I recall this correctly, was a 4 l lr 20 steam leak that at some plants would have been fixed O
- 21 on-line without taking the plant off-line. And my I
j 22 impression was that that was a conservative decision b 23 made by the company. 24 The company knows the world is watching O v POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
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l~ l l l 21 1 ( g-)g MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 (, JAN17.ARY 11, 1999 1 out for a long time. I'm baffled here. Who is telling l 2 the truth? Is Mr. Miller telling the truth or has l l 3 Northeast Utilities been lying to our Department of l 4 Public Utility Control? And I also am told secondhand, 5 been lying to our individual legislators. 6 MR. MILLER: A couple of comments. I 7 think that perhaps the -- one of the most significant 8 issues at Millstone prior to the extended shutdown was 9 the failure to deal with things in a conservative way, 10 in a way that gets to the root of problems. And I
@ 11 think that one of the significant things coming out of 12 this outage, in addition to the fact that there have
(]} 13 been equipment problems which have brought the plant 14 off-line, is the decision-making that was done. 15 There was -- one of the shutdowns, the 16 controlled -- one of the first of the shutdowns was a 17 controlled shutdown, not an automatic shutdown. It was
! 18 to repair a leak on a steam -- a steam leak on one of I 19
- the systems that, if I recall this correctly, was a ir 20 steam leak that at some plants would have been fixed 0
< 21 on-line without taking the plant off-line. And my I
22 impression was thLt that was a conservative decision l b 23 made by the company. l 24 The company knows the world is watching l O>
\-
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3
' JANUARY 11, 1999 1 them. They know we're watching them and how much that 2 plays in, you know, we'll never know for sure. But the 3 point is that my sense is that one of the changes here 4 is a more conservative apprcach to dealing with ,
5 problems and not attempting to mask problems. There's 6 a very large problem. There's a so-called high-volume, 7 low-threshold problem reporting system at this plant 8 right now. And that's radically different from before. 9 So there has been change. But, you 10 know, the equipment problems exist at all plants. 11 They've had more than their share for an average plant. l; (} 12 And that's why I mentioned at the beginning the focus 13 of the company at this point, as well as ours, can't be 14 just on the restart of Unit 2. They've got to continue 15 to devote resources to the operation of Unit 3. 16 A VOICE: Okay. On a couple of other 17 things that were mentioned, you said fuel was reloading h 18 in Unit 2. Was the fuel cladding inspected for leaks?
- 19 Was there any damaged fuel reloaded into the reactor?
' l r 20 And I want to bring this us because, you know, normally O
- 21 a prudent, well-managed utility wouldn't even think of I
22 putting damaged back in a reactor, but we know l b 23 Northeast Utilities has done it on two other occasions. 24 They did it at CY and went on their world record run of O POST REPORTING SERVICE l HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
I l 1 23 g MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 JANUARY 11, 1999 1 reactor operation with damaged fuel at CY and spewed 2 hot particles and nuclear fleas all over the place. 3 And I believe back in maybe '75 or so at one of the 4 Millstones they had damaged fuel. 5 Was the fuel cladding inspected before 6 it reloaded? 7 MR. BEAULIEU: You can identify when 8 there's fuel leakers by RCS activity and there's l 9 various ways. They didn't identify any of that prior 10 to the shutdown. If they had, they have not just the 11 spent fuel or to replace individuals rods even, but in
'l 12 this case there was no cladding leak-through prior to 13 the shutdown.
14 A VOICE: Okay. Would there be any 15 expectation, just based on metallurgy, once you heat 16 this stuff up that's been cold for quite a long time 17 that you might -- leaks might pop up? Or fuel that's
! 18 been sitting for a couple of years -- or it's not a i: 19 consideration?
Ir CHAIRPERSON LANNING: 20 Not usually. O
- 21 A VOICE: Not usually a consideration.
1 22 okay. Thank you. l l 23 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: But to answer your 24 specific question, I don't think they did a fuel O POST REPORTING SERVICE l HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l l
I' 1: I 24 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 l O JANUARY 11, 1999' i. 1 inspection specifically -- 2 A VOICE: Okay. 3 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: -- in response to I l 4 your question. 5 A VOICE: All right. Another question -- 6 MR. MILLER: Well, wait a minute. I 7 mean other than the -- that's for the fuel that has l 8 been in the reactor for some time. Imd , as I said, i L 1 9 there are indirect ways of knowing whether those are 10 problems. But there are extensive inspections of new ll 11 fuel before it's loaded. So that part certainly had to 12 be done. And we can confirm that. But the new fuel (}~ l 13 would have been -- if any new fuel that was added -- l 14 was there any new fuel -- l l 15 MR. DEAN: No. 16 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: I don't think 17 there was any new fuel.
! 18 A VOICE: Just a reload back of the old I; 19 fuel?
l e 20 A VOICE: Yes. !0 l = 21 A VOICE: All right. ! -l l l 22 A VOICE: Okay. And when the refueling l h 23 happens at Millstone 3, will there be an examination of 24 the reactor head penetrations for cracking?
.O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
l l 25 l MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 O JANUARY 11, 1999 l 1 1 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: I don't know the 2 answer to that exactly. I don't know whether that's 3 been done on 3 previously or not. 4 A VOICE: It was not done on 3. It was 5 done on 2, but not done on 3. 6 A VOICE: Done on 2, but not on 3. ! 7 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: I don't know the 8 answer to that. 1 9 A VOICE: Was that because there was l 10 combustion engineering -- separate issues? That's why 11 Unit 2 did it, not Unit 3.
]() 12 MR. MILLER: It's an issue with the 13 plant design that -- of the sort that Unit 2 is, not
]
14 the one that Unit 3 experienced. 15 A VOICE: Right. 16 A VOICE: Okay. I think I have some I 17 general questions. I'll come back later on those. l s
! 18 Thank you, i: 19 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Okay. Good.
h r 20 Thank you. O
< 21 Okay. Are there --
22 MS. BASSILAKIS: Yes. l 23 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Rosemary? 24 MS. BASSILAKIS: Good evening. Rosemary POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 1
f 26 rw MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 I (_) JANUARY 11, 1999 1 Bassilakis, Citizens Awareness Network. With regard to 2 the number of heat-ups and cool-downs associated with 3 the shutdowns, isn't it -- I mean I always thought 4 there was one issue with having to shut down so many 5 times in a year. And that is that each time you shut 6 down, you increase the embrittlement of the metal, of 7 the vessel. You heat it up. You cool it down. You 8 heat it up. You cool it down. You heat it up. You 9 cool it down. You heat it up. You cool it down. You 10 heat it up and cool it down. That's what's happened 11 since they started. (} 12 So there's the issue of embrittlement. 13 And each reactor vessel has a certain number of heat 14 up/ cool down cycles that's allowed. Is that true? 15 CHAI2 PERSON LANNING: Essentially, yes. 16 MR. MILLER: Well, yes. The 17 embrittlement that you're referring to normally is
! 18 something that's associated with the amount of radia-- ; 19 MS. BASSILAKIS: So the neutron i
t 20 requirement, not -- 3 '
~ 21 MR. MILLER: Neutron.
g 22 MS. BASSILAKIS: And it's not 23 necessarily -- l 24 MR. MILLER: 'rne th'.ng that you're l POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
L 27 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 () JANUARY 11, 1999 1 referring to is -- the numbers that are called fatigue 2 cycles. 3 A VOICE: Fatigue cycles. 4 MR. MILLER: And there are major 5 components in the plant that are designed and analyzed 6 at the beginning for so many fatigue cycles. And it's 7 not -- it's my impression that the number of heat-ups 8 and cool-downs that have occurred this time have not, 9 you know, come -- 10 MS. BASSILAKIS: I don't think it would j l' -- 22 (]) MR. MILLER: -- anywhere near what is 13 allowed for n 40-year life. But that's something that 14 has to be tracked, Rosemary. And they have to keep 15 records of all of that. And at some point, conceivably 16 that would be an issue. But it is not an issue right 17 now. I have not heard anybody say that that's an issue
! 18 in any way right now.
- 19 MS. BASSILAKIS: No. I --
ir 20 MR. MILLER: Dut the bigger issue is the O a 21 issue of the burdens and the challenges it presents to l 22 operators. That's our major concern. And l I believe b 23 that's the concern of the company as well. 24 MS. BASSILAKIS: Is it true -- I've O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 I i
l 28
,3 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3
(_) JANUARY 11, 1999 1 heard this said before and I'm wondering if you would 2 concur; that if you could say there i.s a most dangerous 3 time to a plant operation -- I don't know if you would, 4 given your job. But I've always heard that it's during 5 heat-up and cool-down where most things can go wrong. 6 Would you say that's true? 7 MR. MILLER: It increases risks. But I 8 mean there are -- you know, the risk picture goes up 9 and down. And the thing that we are here to do is to 10 make sure it's up and down at a very low level. And l @ 11 there's nothing acutely significant about these kinds l (} 12 of start-ups and shutdowns. They're all analyzed and 13 they're a part of what a considered before a plant is j 1 14 ever licensed. I 15 Now, enough of these things happen and 16 we start to get upset and we challenge them, as we have 17 over this past six months. But that's to keep it low
! 18 and not have it get to the point where it's a real
- 19 concern, ir 20 MS. BASSILAKIS: You mentioned Nuclear O
= 21 oversight gave a presentation today with regard to l
22 their evaluations. Can you give a couple of their red l b 23 flags that they raight have raised? You didn't really 24 go intc any specifics. And we weren't at the meeting. rr As POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
E i l l 29 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 O. JANUARY 11, 1999 l 1 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Okay. If you , 2 ' recall, during the start-up of Unit 3, they had the I l l 3 Nuclear Cversight verification process. That evaluated 4 a number of attributes concerning operations and ready 5 to operate. It included operations, work control, l 6 engineering -- remember that chart?
=
7 MS. BASSILAKIS: Mm-hmm. l .8 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: And this is the l 9 one they used colors on. You can just try to -- 1 10 everybody may not be able to see that, but that's the l@ 11 chart that they end up with as a result of their t () 12 analyses. 13 MS. BASSILAKIS: So there are a couple 14 of areas that are indicating needing improvement? l 15 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Well, the only red 16 -- and red indicates a significant weakness -- was l 17 really -- this is Unit 2. This had to do with the Year
! 18 2000 readiness. So all the other operational areas I: 19 were yellow and green.
lt 20 MR. MII LER : And you have to be careful l l 6 l
- 21 on that, also. That is --
as I understood that
- I 22 comment, it was not projecting to the Year 2000 and I l-23 will it be ready at that time. It is that they're 24 behind where they expected to be at this point. And so O POST REPORTING SER TICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 26'!-4102
30 ("% MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 JANUARY 11, 1999 1 the- whole reason for this is to get early detection of 2 issues so that there's time to do something about it. 3 And I did not get from that that they're drawing a 4 conclusion that they won't be ready. It's just that 5 that's an area where management needs to focus 6 attention. 7 MS. BASSILAKIS: That's the only area 8 that Nuclear Oversight thought they needed to improve 9 en? 10 MR. MILLER: No. That's -- l; 11 7MAIRPERSON LANNING: Well, there are a 12 number of areas which additional improvements or f} l' enhancements -- 14 MS. BASSILAKIS: Okay. 15 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: -- are necessary. 16 You asked me which were the -- needed the most 17 improvement. That's red.
! 18 MS. BASSILAKIS: Okay.
1 19 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: There are several 20 yellows, for example. And yellow indicates the O
- 21 tracking to satisfactory. So there's still improvement i
j 22 needed there. 23 MS. BASSILAKIS: Okay. 24 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: And if you'd like,
, r' La)
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l L
n. i 31 g- MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 , JANUARY 11, 1999 1 after the meeting I'd be glad to show you the chart. 2 MS. BASSILAKIS: Yes. Maybe I can get a 3 copy? l 4 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Okay.
~
5 Okay. Are there other questions about I 6 today's meeting? 7 A VOICE: Hello. First of all, I'd like 8 to say I'm really glad the reactor is running. I'm 9 doing a booming business. I'm selling radiation suits 10 and masks, $50.00 a pop. We have children's sizes. l 11 You can keep it next to your potassium iodine. It's 12 really great.
~}
13 You might -- I have a question that you 14 might have answered when the other gentleman was 15 speaking. But if Millstone 3 -- and a couple of years 16 ago, it was a 10-year-old reactor and they spent over a 17 billion dollars to bring it up into compliance. And
! 18 then it has shut down five times in six months. And i: 19 T'm wondering if the reason for that shutdown is that -
lr 20 - you might have answered this, but I didn't catch it. l 0 ' a 21 If they were from the Deferred Item List of items that 1 l j 22 were left open when the reactor went on line. Were b 23 these any of *he reasons for this -- for these five 24 shutdowns? O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l l
32 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 O JANUARY 11, 1999 1 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: I think the answer 2 to that is no. i 3 Right, Tony? I 4 There were -- none of the items on the 5 Deferred List contributed to the forced shutdowns. 6 A VOICE: Five. Was there five? I 7 MR. DEAN: Forced. Not four. 8 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Forced. 9 A VOICE: Forced. Oh. Okay. All 10 right. Thank you. l; 11 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Thank you, Sal. () 12 All right. Other questions on today's 13 meeting? 14 Okay. Our next agenda item is my 15 discussion of the Office cf Investigations, Inspector i 16 General Report. The Office of Inspector General l l 17 performs audits of NRC processes and investigates NRC k 18 staff activities. I
- 19 By way of background, the Connecticut i
t 20 delegation had requested the IG to investigate o 21 complaints of harassment and intimidation by former j 22 employees at Millstone. That was forwarded to the 23 Chairman and the Chairman in turn forwarded that to the 24 office of the IG, who in turn performed an O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
33 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 JANUARY 11, 1999 1 investigation. 2 Historically, the IG identifies areas 3 that can be improved. They usually add value to our i 4 processes. That's not to say that -- sometimes they i 5 don't have all the information. And that's one of the 6 primary reasons for giving staff an opportunity to I 7 respond to the IG report. And we have a process for s doing that. 9 So I'm not -- we at this table cannot 10 really address and talk to the validity of the $ 11 conclunions. In fact, it would be inappropriate for us 12 to do that. 13 I think it's important that you ) 14 understand our process, such that in the future there 15 will be a response by the staff that will be shared 16 with you. 17 The way this process works, the !- 18 Commission will task the staff to respond to reports
- 19 and provide the Commission with the staff's assessment.
Ir 20 That tasking memo could include additional questions by O
- 21 members of the Commission. We have not received that i
j 22 tasking memo yet. This IG report was, I think, b 23 released just last week. 24 But that tasking memo will be issued and O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 o' j
34 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 () JANUARY 11, 1999 1 then the staff will be given an opportunity to comment 2 on the conclusions in the Inspector General report. 3 After -- the staff will then provide its response back 4 to the Commission. And then the Commission has a 5 number of options that it could take in response to the 6 staff's assessment of the IG report. That could -- I 7 can't really speculate on the range of actions that the 8 Commission could require the staff to undertake. But 9 historically it's been to improve our processes. 10 So that's the process. So we're just l l: 11 now getting into the process of developing a response 12 to that report. (} 13 MR. MILLER: I've been away from this 14 for a couple of years. And so in coming back to it, 15 I'm -- the only thing I would say in this regard -- and 16 it doesn't -- Wayne's right. We can't comment on that 17 specific report. And we'll be providing the
! 18 Commission, you know, an answer to their questions 1 19 about it.
Ir 20 But, coming back to this, I'm struck O a 21 again by the importance, the ultra-importance, of l 22 continuing to make progress in this broad area of l b 23 Safety-Conscious Work Environment, creating an I t 24 environment that is not only, you know, neutral or not O v POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
35 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 O JANUARY 11, 1999 1 negative but that is positive for raising issues, that 2 rewards people who bring forward problems. And, again, 3 if I draw 'n o my experience -- and I used to be the 4 Regional Administrator in Chicago before coming to 5 Region 1 a couple of years ago. You can't turn around 6 a situation like this overnight. And so significant 7 efforts need to continue to be made by the company. 8 And they've made a lot of progress. 9 I think the significant things with 10 respect to, you know, employee concerns is the l: 11 management change at Northeast Utilities, you know, the 12 efforts that the Commission or the requirements that ({} 13 the Commission imposed on the company through the order 14 to bring in Little Harbor, to have a third party assess 15 this. I think Little Harbor has, you know, verified 16 that it's a much-improved situation at the plant. But 17 that doesn't stop -- that doesn't mean that the company
! 18 won't continue to have to make significant efforts and
- 19 that we won't have to be watchful.
Ir 20 And so at this point, you can ask some O 21 general questions about this broad area. But you'll i , j 22 understand if we don't answer in specific about the b 23 report. 24 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Susan? O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
36 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 () JANUARY 11, 1999 1 MS. SUSAN PERRY LUXTON: Hi. Susan 2 Perry Luxton, Citizens Regulatory Commission, 3 Faterford, Connecticut. I'm sorry I have these 4 sunglasses wrong. I have something -- a scratched 5 cornea. It's funny how the universe works because I 6 feel -- I'm ashamed to look at the representatives of 7 this agency in my town because, with all due respect, 8 Mr. Miller, you sound good and you said the same kind , I 9 of things that Mr. -- Dr. Travers said to us two years 10 ago when he came to our town. j l @ 11 And I remember the meeting, the first 1 12 meeting he was introduced to us. I believe Mr. Lanning (} 13 was there. It was in East Lyme. And I said to him, 14 "We've heard NRC people before tell us that you've 15 dropped the ball, that there's lessons you've learned." 16 And I said, "How do we know that you will be any j 1 17 different from that?" This is at the beginning of this
! 18 SPO, special Projects Office. And you know what he 1
- 19 said to me? He said, "I -- oh. I said, "Who is going lr 20 to be accountable? Because our group has been calling O
- 21 for accountability in Northeast Utilities and the NRC 3
j 22 for dropping the ball for years." And he said, "I will 3 23 be accountable. You can hold me accountable." 24 And now I read this -- we read this O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
37 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 O JANUARY 11, 1999 1 Inspector General's report of last week. And I mean I 2 -- it's -- Mr. Miller, you can't understand -- can you 3 possibly understand the outrage we felt when we read 4 the findings of this report? 5 So, let me just -- let me just compose 6 myself here because it's just so maddening. But let me 7 get to my notes. 8 So, therefore, I want to call for Dr. 9 Travers' resignation. 10 (APPLAUSE) y 11 MS. PERRY LUXTON: You know why? 12 Because he broke his pledge to the pub'ic. That's why. ({} _ 13 He broke his pledge. 14 I'd also like to call on my legislators, 15 my Senators, and I'd like anyone else in this room and 16 of the public in this community to call them to 17 investigate your agency, the Nuclear Regulatory
! 18 Commission.
1 19 (APPLAUSE)
-20 MS, PERRY LUXTON: Okay. Now, Mr. 1 O l < 21 Miller, I'm going to tell you why; because -- and all i
j 22 the way to the top with Dr. Jackson because she -- when b 23 she came to our community in 1996, she said that the 24 NRC had dropped the ball and they won't dror the ball O POST REPORTING SERVICE , HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 I
38 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 () JANUARY 11, 1999 1 DeBarbagain. And what we found from this report is not 2 only did the Office of Investigation, the Special 3 Projects Office and the Commission drop the ball, but 4 they rolled it under the couch. And that, to us, is 5 unacceptable and cannot happen any longer because the 6 Commission is culpable. 7 I was looking through my notes tonight 8 and I found -- I found a directive that Shirley Jackson 9 had given -- oh, where the heck is it? I found a 10 directive that Shirley Jackson had given to her staff l: 11 in February of 1998 -- it was February of 1997. And it f~T 12 was about the start of Millstone 3. And she says, "To u/ \ 13 ensure that the Commission is adequately prepared for 14 upcoming Commission meetings related to the Millstone 15 assessment for restart, the staff should consider the l 16 following issues." And -- okay. 17 And then it says, " Issues. The staff
! 18 should ensure that their independent criteria for
- 19 assessing the employee concerns area, as well as ICAVP ir 20 criteria, are clear and have been made publicly O
< 21 available, and the reports and presentations must i
j 22 include crisp, clear analysis of issues."
- ! 23 And these are some of the issues. One 24 of them -- there's a bunch of them. You know? But one O
L.) POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
39 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 () JANUARY 11, 1999 1 of them at the bottom is " Resolution of issues related 2 to enforcement, allegations and peticions." Now, thLt 3 -- she insisted on that criteria before the restart of i I 4 Millstone 3. 5 And then I was reading another thing, 1 6 May 26. This was the policy -- this was from Joseph 7 Callan, remaining issues related to the recovery of 8 Millstone Station. And in it they say that they -- 9 they say that they have this directive from the 10 Commission and that's why they were giving this report l 11 to the Commission. And they mention the Safety-() 12 Conscious Work Environment and the Corrective Action 13 Program and that there were no outstanding issues and 14 that everything was just hotsy-totsy for restart. 15 And now we find out that these findings 16 say that that they just let that whole enforcement 17 stuff just completely drift away, that even though they
! 18 had made a decision to --
that they found the
! 19
- allegations or the investigation proved that there was ir 20 harassment and intimidation by a Vice President, they O
- 21 just let it -- Dr. Travers didn't get tough and say, k
l 22 "Let's enforce this action." l b 23 Okay. Let's go to another point because 24 I know I only have five minutes. Another thing. I've nm POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l I t
40 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & ^ i l h3 JANUARY 11, 1999 1 been getting calls from Unit 2 people and they were 1 l 2 very upset by reading this in the paper. And they may 3 not be able to come here and say this tonight, but I'll 4 -- I'm making allegations for them. 5 And what they're upset about is the nr.e 6 was given in the paper of DeBarba as the VP that was 7 under investigation. And they called and they said, 8 "DeBarba was not the only one. He was one of many that 9 were harassing and intimidating." And some of those 10 people are present right now in management decisions,
@ 11 in management positions at NU. And they actually named 12 names of one person that they were very upset about 13 that is in a high-level position and ruined people's 14 lives, they said.
15 Okay. Now, you understand that the 16 Citizens Regulatory Commission has always had -- I need 17 to say this to you because it's my responsibility
! 18 because I hear these calls from people. And that's how 19 we started.
Ir 20 Mr. Miller, we've been telling Shirley o
- 21 Jackson -- I told her personally myself over the past j 22 two years and at almost every meeting that this SPO --
b 23 we had serious doubts that they were giving the correct 24 information to the Commission. And we talked about the POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
i 1 1 l i I 41 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 l () JANUARY 11, 1999 l l 1 criteria of ICAVP. They didn't follow their own ! 2 criteria. We told that to her. We told that to our l 3 legislators. But everybody trusted the NRC. i 4 They wouldn't listen to us. No. And we 5 didn't trust you. We never did trust you. They 6 wouldn't listen to us. They always ignored us and 7 listened to the NRC. And we were right all along. 8 And so the collusion -- i t reeks of 9 collusion and corruption. And I'm ashamed of your 10 agency. I can't even look at you. I'm glad I have a y 11 scraped cornea, for cry 2ng out loud. 12 (]) And the worst part of it is -- the worst , 13 part of it, I think, is Finding No. 6. Finding No. 6 i i I 14 says the NRC's -- och. It says letters dated -- from j l 15 the staff of Region 1 -- that's you. "A number of j f 16 allegers" -- and these are some of the allegers that I i 17 were in the January 1 layoff -- "were informed their !
! 18 claims of discrimination were not substantiated, even 19 though no investigation was conducted." They didn't --
h r 20 they sent -- and I know some of these men. As a matter O
- 21 of fact, Jim Plumb was one of these men who got this I
g 22 bogus letter. He was later -- the Attorney General of b 23 the State of Connecticut found out that he was 24 absolutely right. They sued NU. I mean this person O POST REPORTING SERVICE EAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
o 42 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 O JANUARY 11, 1999 1 was harassed and intimidated, one of the nany, and they 2 didn't even investigate his case. 3 So this-DeBarba case is just the tip of 4 the iceberg here. And -- okay. So -- can you tell I'm 5 upset? 6 MR. MILLER: Yes. 7 MS. PERRY LUXTON: And we should be 8 upset. And I have 'to speak for the people'in the 9 public who can't speak for themselves, who don't come 10 to these meetings because it's so darn boring that they l; 11 -- of course, they wouldn't come because you always sit 12 (]} there with suits and tell us the same stuff you've been 13 telling us for two years. And you have lost your 14 credibility again in this community. And I'm oarry to ) i 15 say it because I've even trusted you. When people told 16 me, years and years, you know, " Don't be so, nice to 17 them. Don't trust them", I trusted you all. And it's
! 18 disgusting and I'm ashamed of myself and I'm ashamed of 19 you!
20 A VOICE: Good job, Susan. Good job. O
= 21 (APPLAUSE) 1 22 MR. MILLER: I can understand what l-b 23 you're saying.
24 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Oh, A V POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
F t l l 43 ! MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 () JANUARY 11, 1999 1 MR. MILLER: I can understand your i 2 frustration, especially given the way that report has 3 been reported. I would feel, I suppose, like you do. 4 And the -- a number of things. First of 5 all, the staff has not responded to that yet. And I 6 think you have to wait until the staff has responded to 7 it to address the issues, I mean as a minimum. And I 8 mean, as Wayne said, we can't comment on the report 9 until we've done that formally. But I mean there are a 10 number of things there, obviously, in terms of how we j 11 documented various decisions -- and I wasn't involved 12 (]) in those decisions. 13 But I mean I think just by looking at j 14 it, it appears as though we probably could have done 15 better. And that's where the lessons learned come in. 16 But there's an important point -- 17 there's an important point to make a distinction here.
! 18 And that's why I added at the beginning when we first 19 brought up this topic that we nave to focus on Safety-1 r 20 Conscious Work Environment as it exists in that plant O
21 today. 8 22 The report of the IG is examining staff l 23 decisions regarding enforcement for events that i 24 occurred several years ago, prior to the turnaround, POST REPORTING SERVICE (800) 262-4102 HAMDEN, CT l l
r 44 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 () JANUARY 11, 1999 1 certainly prior to the order from the Commission that 2 directed the company to do the things that they've been 3 required to do with respect to Safety-Conscious Work 4 Environment, the hiring of Little Harbor and the like. 5 The issues that are -- the questions at 6 issue in that report are historical. They do not i 7 relate to the question of Safety-Conscious Work 8 Environment as it exists in the plant today and nor to 9 the decisions made by the Commission, you know, prior i 10 to restart. And this is going to be an issue. It l 11 remains an issue. There's a Commission meeting, in (} 12 fact -- when is it, Bill? Next week? 13 MR. DEAN: The 19th. ! 14 MR. MILLER: Next week. Where the 15 Commission will address the question of whether or not 16 sufficient progress has been made. And there's a 17 recommendation being made at the Commission. The l
-! 18 Commission will firsthand, you know, assess that, hear
! : 19 from the company, hear from the staff before a decision t l t' 20 is made to lift the order. o
- 21 But it's important -- what I'm saying to
- 1 22 you is that the plants should not operate unless there l l
- b. 23 is an environment that is correct with respect to 24 raising safety issues.
O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 L_
I- l ! l l l ! I ( 45 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 JANUARY 11, 1999 1 1 l 1 A VOICE: That's-right. l 2 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Mr. Miller -- l 3 A VOICE: That's exactly right. l 4- MR. MILLER: And that's the distinction i I L 5 it's important for people to keep in mind then. 6 A VOICE: And there's -- 7 MS. PERRY LUXTON: With all due respect 8 -- with all due respect, sir -- 9 MR. MILLER: Yes, Ma'am? 10 MS. PERRY LUXTON: -- NU has changed. !@ 11 They said they've changed. You even said they changed.
=
() 12 I believe there has been change. I'm not talking about 13 NU now. We're talking about the NRC. 14 MR. MILLER: Right. l 15 MS. PERRY LUXTON: You haven't changed. 16 Don't be hypocritical. Don't put it on NU. I'm okay 17 with' NU right now. I'm not okay with the Nuclear k 18 Regulatory Commission. You need to change. I 19 MR. MILLER: We -- as I say, we -- Wayne i
.r 20 was right in the beginning; you know, we have to learn o
a 21 from all of this. But I think the other thing I'll say I j 22 to you is wait until the final report is issued by the b 23 staff. 24 A VOICE: Okay. O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
I l 46 7 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 JANUARY 11, 1999 1 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Now, wait your 2 turn. l l 3 MR. GARY VERDONE: My name is Gary J l 4 Verdone and I'm an employee of Northeast Utilities. 5 And I want to tell you that I'm disgusted with you 6 people. ( 7 (APPLAUSE) 8 MR. VERDONE: I was shocked to read this 9 IG report because I was one of the people that stood 10 out three years to the date today. It says here in a l 11 letter by the Hartford Courant, " Faced with a staff
] 12 recommendation to accelerate enforcement action against 13 Northeast Utilities for firing whistleblowers, that did 14 the Federal Regulatory Commission --
what did the l 15 Federal Regulatory Commission do?" The answer is 16 absolutely nothing. That's what you guys did for us. 17 Three years after we were laid off, we
! 18 find out, after all the hours and effort that you've 1
- 19 put into these investigations, you didn't even have the
!r 20 publish a You allowed guts to report. an Attorney O
21 General's Office, apparently, from New Haven to dictate k 22 to you how you were going to write this report, if it l l b 23 was ever written, what you were going to include in the l l 24 report. And it was all done in a very underhanded, (J~L l POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
47 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 (- JANUARY 11, 1999 1 deceitful manner while 104 people waited for you guys 2 to do the right thing. You didn't do a damn thing for 3 anybody. 4 And then you allowed another Federal 5 agency to dictate to you how you were going to do your 6 job. That really bothers me because you know what it 7 tells me? It tells me that there are a hundred nuclear 8 plants operating in this nation right now. There's 9 about two or 3,000 people working in each one of these 10 nuclear plants. That's about 200,000 people working in l l 11 this nation that can't depend on you people as an l (3 N/ 12 umbrella to protect against harassment and 13 intimidation. 14 (APPLAUSE) 15 MR. VERDONE: And that's very, very 16 disturbing to me as a nuclear worker. So I'm speaking 17 to you on behalf of my peers at the nuclear plants.
! 18 And I'm saying to you that we expected more out of you
- 19 than this. This is a really big problem.
l lr 20 I look this almost as a situation where O a 21 you people have got to be a separate entity, completely i ! l $ 22 divorced from any other Federal agency, to be able to 3 I b 23 make decisions, not to be dictated to by other 24 agencies. It's almost like separation of church and O V POST REPORTING SERVICE l HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l l i
I I 48 g MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 . JANUARY 11, 1999 l 1 state. You can't have the church dictating to the I 2 state. You can't have the state dictating to the 3 church. It has to be a separate entity. You can't be 4 playing footsies with each other to make sure reports 5 come out just right so neither agency is embarrassed by 1 6 the conclusions or recommendations by the other agency. 1 7 We don't need you guys to come down here 8 to this power plant to be a bunch of pretty faces. We 9 need you to come down here to do your job and to 10 protect us. And if ever a power plant personnel needed l; 11 protection from people in management that were doing 12 the wrong thing, it was this power plant right here. 13 So, as you go forward, you can bring 14 this message back to Shirley for us. We expect more 15 out of your agency. And if you can't do the job, all 16 of you ought to get the hell out of town and take 17 shirley with you.
! 18 (APPLAUSE) l 19 COLLINS: name
- MR. DAVE My is Dave i
r 20 Collins. I work with Gary at the plant as well. And I C
< 21 concur with everything that he just said. And I just 1
22 wanted to make a comment about something -- l b 23 A VOICE: We can't hear you. l 24 A VOICE: Speak up, Dave. O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
I l 49 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNI"S 2 & 3 { JANUARY 11, 1999 l 1 MR. COLLINS: I'm sorry. I just wanted 2 to make a comment about something that I think it's Mr. 3 Miller said about what happened happened years ago and 4 it doesn't affect what's going on at the plant today. 5 Well, that's not the case. It has a definite chilling 6 effect on the employees today. 7 If the employee today can't feel 8 confident that he can bring a complaint to the NRC and 9 have it properly evaluated, then he is just not going 10 to do that. Okay? All right. So you reach kind of -- 11 MR. MILLER: I agree with that. I mean [J \ 12 that's vital. 13 MR. COLLINS: Sure. 14 MR. MILLER: And it's very hard to sit 15 here and not be able to respond to the details of this. 16 As I say, I wasn't involved in that. But I mean in 17 terms of I've got to live with the result of whatever
! 18 it is and the whole -- our whole process is aimed at ! 19 creating an environment -- after the company has done h
r 20 whatever they have to do to make sure that there's a O
- 21 positive environment, we work very hard to create an 1
22 environment where it's -- where people feel comfortable l b 23 to come to us. It's a problem if that doesn't exist. 24 And so we've got a lot of work to do to make sure that O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
50 ! MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 l JANUARY 11, 1999 l l 1 that does exist. ! 2 MR. COLLINS: I think there's been -- 3 MR. MILLER: And I take your comment. 4 MR. COLLINS: I agree with you that it's 5 very important. And I appreciate your putting the 6 Safety-Conscious Work Environment on the -- on a 7 sacrosanct -- on a pedestal. I totally concur that 8 that's something that needs to be considered as 9 important, as any of the pieces of equipment would be 10 at the plant. ;
$. 11 MR. MILLER: Right.
12 MR. COLLINS: But on that same subject, 13 in our -- in my department -- Northeast has said that 14 we are the most empowered work force in the industry 15 and they set up some good Employee Concerns Program. I 16 believe that that part is really excellent. And they 17 took a culture survey asking all the employees what
! 18 they thought about the Safety-conscious Work l 1
19 Environment. And they got the results from that. 20 The problem with that is that they o a 21 didn't look at the results and they didn't do anything l 22 with them. In my department, you're supposed to flag l h 23 the results when they're 10 percent below the average 24 for the plant. The average for the plant in the POST REPORTING SERVICE ' HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
l 51 l MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 ! O aANuARv 11 1999 1 Safety-Conscious Work Environment was 87 percent. For 2 my department, it was below that. It was 77 percent in 3 November of 1997. And nothing was done. And they did 4 another survey in June of 1998 and it had dropped 1 5 another 11 percent, so that it was 66 percent. And ! 6 that's -- this is overall Safety-Conscious Work 1 7 Environment scores. So some of 'the scores were 30 8 percent or, actually, several were over 30 percent 9 below average. And some of those. dealt with- actually 10 the handling of safety concerns. And nothing was done 1 '$ 11 with that. So I thought at the time management -- and j 12 finally they addressed a few concerns, but none of the 13 concerns that dealt directly with the handling of 14 safety issues. 15 So I was pretty -- there needs to be a 16 lot more work -- and I got kind of concerned when 17 Little Harbor said that there's no evidence of
! 18 backsliding- or complacency because, in my mind, I 19 complacency when you do and
- is don't anything
!r 20 backsliding was when the results drop significantly.
'O l
- 21 And that's what happened.
I 22 And I'd like to go back -- l b 23 MR. MILLER: We'll look at those. 24 MR. COLLINS: I'd like to go back for a O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
52 ( MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 l (I JANUARY 11, 1999 1 minute to -- I realize you retracted your comment. But 2 I'd just like a real-world example of the concerns 3 about when employees feel that there's no place to go. 4 They can't go to the NRC. They may .not feel i 5 ' comfortable going to ECP because of the-- they tend to l l 6 ruin your reputation. 7 And.I have a good friend of mine just 8 left Millstone to go work in another plant and to work 9 at Dresden. And the reason he left is he had raised -- 10 he's a person who raised a lot of safety concerns and l 11 had a-reputation as a nitpicker. But I was concerned 12 about him getting that reputation and trying to fight
)(])
13 out whether it was real or not. So I asked him for 14 lists of the concerns that he would bring to people and 15 we reviewed the projects. And I couldn't find anything 16 on those lists that was anything but legitimate 17 questioning.
! 18 But he comes and reviews the project for h 19 a couple of people across the partition from me in the 'lr 20 office and'he leaves. And I listen to some of their o
a 21 comments. And some are a little graphic. The first, l l l 22 it says, "He's an asshole." Okay. Next one is -- he l 23 makes the comment here, a couple of people talking 24 about themselves. "Some people look for excuses not to 4 ( POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
53 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 () JANUARY 11, 1999 ) l 1 do work. I look for excuses to do work." ( 2 Another one of them says, sarcastically, 1 ! 3 "I'm still waiting for his seal of approval." Another 4 one says -- he says sarcastically, "He picks up the
- 5 phone and says, ' Hello. Employee Concerns.'" And then l 6 another comment says, "He's an idiot." And when he !
1 7 said that, I walked around the partition and I 8 confronted and I said, "You don't mean that." His 9 answer was "I mean that wholeheartedly. He's a l 10 bonehead. He can't leave fast enough, as far as I'm ' l 11 concerned. His comments are wearing me down. They're 12 burning me out."
)(])
13 This is -- this is real-world Safety-14 Conscious Work Environment that we have in a department 15 where the safety-conscious average is 21 percent below j 16 average '.or Millstone and more. It's actually lower 17 than that because Millstone has a 90 percent actual
! 18 personal standard for Millstone. But, as far as I E i ! 19 know, they're not doing anything to bring it up to l h
r 20 that. So -- O 21 I'm not saying they haven't done a lot k j 22 of work. I'm saying that there are some serious
! 23 problems that are still there and apparently not being l 24 flagged.
f'T U POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
54 p MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 JANUARY 11, 1999 1 MR. MILLER: We talked about that today. 2 And we talked about -- we didn't have the opportunity 3 to look at the exact -- the resulta themselves. Some 4 of my colleagues may have looked at them. But we 5 talked a little bit about the scores today and about l 6 the need to keep that moving up. They do have this 90-7 percent goal that you talked about. And they're not 8 meeting that. 9 So that's why I said at the beginning 1 10 they have to continue to make this a high priority j 11 because it does not turn around overnight and it's -- 12 when you lose trust, it takes a long time to rebuild 13 it. 14 MR. COLLINS: I asked him why he was 15 leaving and he said that the other units basically -- 16 he worked on Millstone 1 with me. And he said the 17 other units basically don't want him. He had gotten
! 18 into some safety concern conflicts with the supervision ! 19 and
- at both of the units was not -- did not feel i
e 20 comfortable that he had a future. So -- and, to me, 6
- 21 that's kind of a tragic thing. I mean that's the kind l
22 of stuff -- I think there are some people working to l ! h 23 improve that. But there's also -- it's still there. 24 And it's not like I didn't say rything about this. I m U POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
l 55 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 O JANUARY 11, 1999 1 pumped this information on the Safety-conscious Work 2 Environment scores to the head of the screen routes, to 3 Little Harbor Consultants and to the Vice President of 4 Human Resources and E-Mailed all these people with all D 5 these results and basically nothing was done. So -- 6 MR. MILLER: We've taken some notes. 7 MR. DEAN: Dave, I've got a little bit 8 of information. I tal.ed to John Colleran today and 9 one of the things I asked him was how were things going 10 with the Unit 1 design organization. We've had seve al
$ 11 discussions in the past about that and about your very 12
(]) issue that you discussed with Hub. 13 And, you know, I asked him have they 14 reached a point that they've made a SCWE area yet, you 15 know, the old focus areas. And he says that they -- 16 you know, he believes that they're on the verge of 17 identifying Unit 1 design organization as an area that
! 18 needs to be within that focused attention.
I
- 19 MR. COLLINS: Do you know if the other h
r 20 areas were addressed? O 21 MR. DEAN: In terms of -- 1 22 MR. COLLINS: l In terms of taking b 23 corrective actions? Getting together with the 24 employees and having a meeting? There's a guide that O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l .
l 56 ) MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 i JANUARY 11, 1999 1 comes along with that survey that the managers have a 2 responsibility; they're supposed to take a look at the l 1 3 scores that are 10 percent below or they're supposed to 4 be -- they're supposed to call meetings with the 5 employees and talk it over with the employees and ask I 6 them what they should do to improve it and improveit. 7 MR. DEAN: Yes. My sense is with the 8 recent cultural survey results that I assume will be 9 published here in the near future, that that process 10 will take place. Once again, I don't know what the
@ 11 results were for your group for this most recent
{} 12 cultural survey. I didn'" have the opportunity to see 13 that data. 14 MR. COLLINS: Unfortunately, that's 15 another concern I have. They took our department, 16 which was way below average, and they combined our 17 scores with a department that had above-average 5 18 results. So it was basically a wash. But if we have I 19 the same problems in our department, they're never i h r 20 going to show in the survey now. o a 21 MR. MILLER: We've taken notes. We'll I 22 look at it, l b 23 MR. COLLINS: Okay. 24 MR. TOM MASTF f ;N'.>O : My name is Tom POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 4
i j 57 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 : O JANUARY 11, 1999 l 1 Mastrianno from Lyme, Connecticut, a former employee of 2 Northeast Utilities. And I hear some words, " tragic" i 3 and "real-world". And some of the things said here, it l 4 brings back some bitter memories of some harassment and 5 intimidation and severe embarrassment and humiliation I 6 suffered from Northeast Utilities. And I've let the 7 NRC know many times and I understand -- it's amazing to 8 me. I see the -- one of the recent inspections, one of j 9 the specific problems I brought up in 1988 is still 10 unresolved. And it is mind-blowing to me. Mr. Kenyon g 11 put out to the point in July 22 with specific regards 12 to my problems of the fire foaming issue. You have 13 data of fire foam there that's outdated, not applied 14 properly. That needs all to be pulled out. And God 15 forbid if you should have a fire there. It will reach 16 critical areas, like the control room, cable spreading 17 room, et cetera.
! 18 I brought up specific issues in 1988 to 1 19 my and then-s':pervision to my Human Resources 20 Department, then to NU senior management, Bill Ellis, o
a 21 Bernie Fox and General Pica individually in meetings. 0 [ 22 And instead of dealing with my questions and concerns, b 23 I was put in ar.d out of nuclear subject to the 24 harassment and intimidation, psychological and physical O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
58 A MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 (_) JANUARY 11, 1999 1 problems NU identified. Then I, of course, had a loss 2 of income, wages and benefits and the means to support 3 my family, the total destruction of my family. 4 And we're all human beings. But you 5 have a job to do to protect the safety and health of 6 the public. And I brought these issues up in 1988. 7 And in a recent inspection -- and I brought it up again 8 on February 2 to James Lieberman and Shirley Jackson. 9 I brought it up again on March 13 to Jacque Durr, March 10 14 to Wayne Lanning in meetings, direct meetings with @ 11 Mr. Lanning and Mr. Durr. I wrote it up on May 12, = (} 12 1988 to Mr. Morris and Mr. Kenyon. On June 2, I 13 brought it up at the NRC main headquarters to Ms. I 14 Jackson and all her staff about my nuclear questions 15 and concerns. 16 On June 18, I specifically addressed my 17 concerns to Mr. Beaulieu, many NU engineers and senior
! 18 management and I was to go on a walk-down which was 19 cancelled and is still -- to identify the specific 20' areas, which is still up in the air. It seems like o
a 21 they have something to hide. They don't want the walk-l 22 down. I'm still wondering where that is. It was
! 23 agreed upon. And this has been going on and on and it 24 shows a pattern. And it's the NRC's job to protect the O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
59 gg MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 q (j JANUARY 11, 1999 1 public and you're failing. e Where -- why are there unresolved issues 3 with the fire foam penetrations and seals at Millstone 4 Units 2 and 3? 5 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Well, Tom, let me 6 just back you up a little bit. You provided 7 information to us and we have -- 8 MS. BASSILAKIS: We've heard that 9 before, Wayne. Yes. 10 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Rosemary, let me 1 11 finish my statement please.
/ 12 MS. BASSILAKIS: Again? \_3/
13 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: And we've 14 inspected your concerns. We've validated some of your 15 concerns. We've corresponded with you directly 16 concerning the results of our inspections. And we've 17 treated those as allegations. And we've given you the
! 18 results of our inspections that's been documented in
- 19 inspection reports.
!r 20 MR. MASTRIANNO: All right. Out of 80 0
- 21 seals, 68 are defective. Thai's --
that is un-- l 22 there's problems with either the void, the depth, no l 23 damming material. And I told Mr. Beaulieu of specific 24 areas in a meeting and you know we had many follow-up f)) POST REPORTING SERVICE j HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 ; 1 l l
60 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 .O JANUARY 11, 1999 1 calls with you. I gave you the specific areas and 2 locations and the tech specs problems with that. And 3 there are still -- this is your document dated January 4 7. Bottom line here is " Quality Control did not verify 5 that these penetration shields require the full depth 6 nor that the licensee has available evidence to show 7 that conditions were evaluated and were proper and met 8 the required fire ratings. This is still pending NRC 9 review. The issue remains unresolved." And it gives 10 the URI, all that. This is as of January 7, 1999. l; 11 These issues were brought up to the utility in 1988. 12 And instead of dealing with it then, they ruined me and ({} 13 they ruined a lot of people. And it's not acceptable. 14 This is America. It's horrible. It's -- you don't 15 know the -- you don't know -- and, Mr. Lanning, I 16 brought them up to you specifically in Niantic at the 17 Energy Center. I brought them up to Mr. Beaulieu. I k 18 detailed to Mr. Durr. I talked to Mr. Lieberman and I: 19 Ms. Jackson. And where else can you go? And they're 20 still unresolved. They're still unresolved. Some have o a 21 been repaired. They shouldn't have been there. The 1 22 fire foam is bad. l b 23 How about -- one other issue I had, the 24 post-accident sampling system. I put in tubing that POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
61 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 O JANUARY 11, 1999 1 does not meet the tech specs. I swear on my children's 2 head it is improper tubing that went through receipts 3 inspections and was blown off because the unit was 4 getting on line; we've got to do it. Put it in. Bent 5 incorrectly. Fire foaming there was bad, expired, 6 mixed improperly. 7 I was on the team of people that did it. 8 I was on the team of people when the NRC and the State , l 9 Police came here to throw the fire foamers off site. l 10 And we took it all in. And 90 percent of that foam was @ 11 re-used. When it sat for months, it should have been (} 12 under controlled areas. It was just in trailers, C-13 vans out in the cold all winter and we had a tough 14 winter. It destroyed the integrity of that material. 15 66,000 barrels of material that NU tried to sell it and 16 couldn't get anybody to buy it. So, instead of dealing l 17 with it, they used it. They couldn't get enough )
! 18 material -- it's well-documented they tried to sell it !
- 19 and no one wanted it. And I brought these specific ir 20 issues, the batch numbers and everything, to the e
< 21 attention of Northeast Utilities and the NRC. And l
j 22 those issues are still outstanding. The fire foam j b' 23 should be ripped out and repaired or put in properly 24 under guidance from the industry and the NRC. O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
f. 62 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3
/ JANUARY 11, 1999 i !
1 And you cannot trust NU to say they've 1 2 done it properly because this is just one example of 3 many things that they haven't done. And, instead, they 1 1 4 ruined me. 5 And you have a job and you have a roof 6 over your head. And they subjected me to unbelievable 7 intimidation and harassment from Mr. Ellis in his day 8 down. I've let Mr. Kenyon know and Mr. Morris the 9 environment has changed. Why are these issues still 10 not resolved? And this is your report as of January 7, j 11 1999. The issues still unresolved. 1 i {} 12 13 And the Unit 3, I brought up specific areas. And Unit 1 and CY also, but those plants are 14 down. And it is disgusting. It is disgusting, 15 disgusting. I tried every chain of command in the i 16 system through the NRC. And it's disgusting. I don't i 17 know how you people can look at yourselves, to see the l
! 18 people that have been ruined -- I ! 19 i
(APPLAUSE) Ir 20 MR. MASTRIANNO: -- on reporting. I've , O a 21 got honest Tuestions presented to you. h j 22 MR. BLANCHE: I know that applause 23 wasn't for me. 24 My name is Paul Blanche for those that O(_) POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
63 (,s) MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 JANUARY 11, 1999 1 don't know me. I'd like to make some comments about 2 the recent OIG report. I believe I was probably the 3 first one to make the formal allegations to the 4 Chairman and to the OIG that initiated this 5 investigation back in you know, three years ago 6 today. 7 I'll be the first one to agree that 8 there has been a significant improvement on behalf of 9 Northeast Utilities and the Safety-Conscious Work 10 Environment. I think that surveys have shown that well l 11 over 90 percent of the people would be comfortable I 12 v raising concerns internally, which is very encouraging. 13 The problem this report has generated is 14 what is the chilling effect created by the NRC 15 themselves? And trust, as you said, Mr. Miller, is 16 something that is very, very difficult to lagain. And 17 the NRC -- the public has lost the trust, as documented
! 18 in this report. You've read it. It's horrible. You i: 19 should be ashamed of it.
I r 20 I do have a question. 0 I've seen a lot 21 of IG reports. I've been the subject of a few $ of the j 22 IG reports. I have another IG report in my hands here 23 that I got today related to Little Harbor. And their 24 conduct, by the way, is extremely o favorable to Little POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
64 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 JANUARY 11, 1999 1 Harbor and the NRC, in case you haven't seen it. 2 But, Mr. Lanning, you mentioned that the 3 staff is. going'to respond to the Commission. I haven't 4 seen that as normal practice, at least as a -member of 5 the public have not seen it. I would expect the staff 6 would respond and I would expect that that document, 7 that response, be made public as soon as the staff i 8 issues it. 9 Is this a normal process that the staff 10 responds to an OIG report? I just haven't seen it in 11 the past. 12 MR. MILLER: It's a case-by-case thing. 13 'But in virtually all cases that happens, Paul. The 14 Commission will decide whether it releases and what it 15 releases, you know, in this regard. And so yc'" neer' -- 16 you know, the Commission would have to decide. We 17 can't sit here and say it will or won't be. But I mean
! 18 I -- you know, that's something you have to take up --
- 19 and I'm sure the Commission will take it up on their ir 20 own, given the -- given the widespread, you know, o
- 21 circulation of the first report. And there's a lot at l
g 22 stake here, obviously. And so it wouldn't surprise me ( h 23 if the staff response wasn't made known or wasn't made 24 public. O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i 1 i
i 65 MEETING'RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 O JANUARY 11, 1999 1 MR.' BLANCHE: Well, I just want to leave I 2 with this comment; that I think the number one priority 3 of the NRC staff and the commission has to be how does 4 the NRC regain the trust of the public. And that's 5 going to be extremely difficult. People have gone to 6 an awful lot of personal risk to bring issues, 7 significant issues, to the NRC. And when they're i 8 treated like this and they see what has happened to 9 their issues and how they're essentially, or at least 10 in this case many of them were buried and how the NRC, l 1 ; 11 as Sue Perry Luxton read, how the NRC can knowingly (} 12 make utaterial f alse stataments to mem <::c? of the public 13 in writing is extremely bothersome u"d qhoul. a '.>e ( 14 bothersome not only to the NRC but members of the l 15 general public. i 16 Thank you. 17 MR. MILLER: That's why I say --
! 18 (APPLAUSE) !: 19 MR. MILLER: There's a lot at stake here h
r 20 and it has to do ultimately with what people conclude G
- 21 about how trustworthy the NRC is. And so that's why 1
g 22 this is very, very important for us to respond to this
.! 23 document.
24 MS. JEAN PEABODY: Jean Peabody. O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
66 g- MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 (, JANUARY 11, 1999 l 1 1 MR. MILLER: To have some interchange 1 2 with the public at the end of the whole thing, too, 3 because it's clear that there's a lot -- if I were 4 reading the reports which the way I read them, I would 5 be in the same position you're in. 6 Yes, Ma'am. Go ahead. 7 MS. PEABODY: Jean Peabody, Waterford. 8 If I don't see this -- 9 A VOICE: Get close to the mike. 1 10 MS. PEABODY: If I don't see this -- say I $ 11 this now, I probably will never get my dander up again (~'/) 12 to say it. But I said at the beginning when we were ! l 13 meeting with you, I never did trust you. And I still 14 don't trust you. But, then again, I shouldn't because 15 your jobs are not to protect us, all the nuclear 16 workers. It hasn't been from the very day you were 17 formed. It never was. Your job was to cover up and
! 18 smooth over the nuclear industry.
19 There is not one piece of professional 20 literature I've ever read that merits the NRC with any o 21 creditful action for any reason at any accident or at j 22 any time. You haven't been there because you don't b 23 have to be there. That 's not your j ob. 24 The end. O G POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
) 67 l MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 JANUARY 11, 1999 i 1 (APPLAUSE) 2 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: All right. Who 3 has not- had an opportunity to ask their question 4' concerning the Inspector General report? 5 MR. CHARLES LUXTON: I'm not sure I have 6 a question. My name is Charlie Luxton. I live in I 7 Waterford. And I haven't been at too many of these 8 meetings lately, which has been nice. The only reason 9 I'm here tonight is because I think Unis is a serious l 10 issue. i
)
y 11 And I'd like to start by saying that I'm 12 here to rep 2esent my kids and my family and the 13 hometown that. I love. And I just want it to be a safe 14 place to raise my family in. 15 But tonight I have just an enormous 16 amount of contempt for the NRC. And this has gone on - 17 - as a member of the CRC, we've been investigating I 18 since George Galatis brought his issue about refueling i: 19 practices in '95. So we've been through a lot of it 20 documents and a lot of meetings. And it gets old o
< 21 because we're not getting paid for this.
l 22 But now we're back to 1995 again. And l b 23 my wife didn't have the exact quote, but I think it 24 bears reading. This is Dr. Jackson's quote from the O POST REPORTING SERVICE ! l ! HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l i I 1
r l 68 (3 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 (_) JANUARY 11, 1999 f I 1 Time article. "We haven't always been on top of l 2 things' says the NRC's Jackson. 'The ball got dropped. 3 Here's what I'm saying now." This is April 1996. "The j l 4 ball will not get dropped again." Well, I think I just ]
)
5 heard something bounce. 6 You know, the real issue, again, is 7 trust. We can't trust the Office of Investigations and 8 we can't trust Dr. Travers to speak up when a Level 1 l 9 violation is about to be ignored. And if I'm not l 10 mistaken, he's the number two guy now. He needs to go.
@ 11 Because at this point everything you say l
(} 12 to me, anything you say to me, I don't trust you. I do 13 not accept it as truth. Everything you do, everything 14 you say is suspect. 15 And I'll tell you what I really want to 16 know. I want to know who the bad guys are. I don't 17 know if I'm looking at them right now. I :aean I like
! 18 you, Wayne Lanning. I think you're a pretty nice guy.
- 19 But I don't know what you've done. I don't know what h
r 20 your history is. I don't know if you're playing games
- 21 iti,the bad guys or not. I want to know that. I want j 22 somebody to go in there and catch all you guys and get b 23 you the hell out of there. That's the only way I'm 24 going to feel safe in my own hometown. Because you're (r
\_)
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
l 69 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 ( )- JANUARY 11, 1999 1 just not doing your job. 1 2 Go I want to know who the bad guys are. 3 I want them out. I want them out of Northeast 4 Utilities-and I want them out of the NRC. So the i 5 entire agency needs to be investigated by some truly 6 independent- agency, if such a thing exists. And I~ 7 think the people-ought to have a say in who that agency 8 is, not the politicians, because I don't trust them, 9 either. Because, to date, there has been no 10 accountability.. l 11 A VOICE: None. () 12 MR. LUXTON: I see Bernie Fox is still a 13 consultant. And that's just absurd. Bush is now 14 working in the industry again. That 's just crazy. I 15 know Pica -- God knows where he is. Or Don Miller or-16 any of those rascals. That as far as I'm concerned, 17 ' they should all be spending time behind bars. ! 18 (APPLAUSE) l-19 MR. LUXTON: Two years ago at an NRC 20 meeting, I stated that I want my pound of flesh. I o- = 21 still want my pound of flesh. l l 22 Thank you. ! 23 (APPLAUSE) 24 CHATRPERSON LANNING: Mark? O POST REPORTIN. SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (600) 262-4102 ]
Tl i 70 l MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 l JANUARY 11, 1999 1 I'll take these two last questions here 2 on the IG report. Then we'll go on to a new topic.
~
3 MR. HOLLOWAY: Mr. Miller, you talked 4 about, essentially -- I'm paraphrasing -- this is -- 5 that was then, this is now, at Millstone station as far l 6 as the Safety-Conscious Work Environment, employee 7 concerns, harassment / intimidation. And you're right. l l 8 It's a lot better there. And a lot of us have had a 9 chance to observe that. 10 But there's another issue here. And Mr. l l g 11 Luxton touched upon it briefly. And that's l 12 accountability. And when we say accountability -- why l 13 do we have to have accountability if things are better 14 at Millstone station? He's right. Those people who 15 were in charge -- and I can remember five of them that 16 were forced to resign. Many of them have resurfaced in l 17 the industry. They're still out there. And I just got I 18 a note from someone I know who was charting the
- 19 progress of one gentleman's trek from a plant out in 20 the Midwest to a plant in upper New York State. And in O l
<- 21 his last line, he said -- he works in the utility l
i j 22 industry -- he's working his way back. This is the l 23 problem. 24 When we unload the undesirables from O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l l
f-l 71 1 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 l () JANUARY 11, 1999 I 1 Millstone station or Northeast Utilities upper l 2 management changes, they go on to other areas in the l 3 industry. l 4 A VOICE: Right. 5 MR. HOLLOWAY: And if there's no 6 accountability, that's going to continue to happen. It I 7 will be over and over and over again and a revolving 8 door. I'm not trying to put anybody in prison. But 9 wnat I'm saying is that when people have established an l l 10 atmosphere that was as bad as it was at Millstone l l 11 station -- it was people that did that. It wasn't a 12 set of procedures that just floated in. People do (]} 13 these things. And that's the management that did those 14 things. And they're gone. But they haven't gone away 15 from the nuclear industry. They're still present. 16 They're still collecting fat salaries and they're still 17 making decisions.
! 18 Until the NRC starts to enforce the 19 things that these people have been talking about and ir 20 the things the NRC has said themselves in the past that i o '
< 21 were wrong, it 's just going to be one big revolving ;
I g 22 door over and over again. j ! $ 23 Thank you. 24 (APPLAUSE) O POST REPORTING SERVICE l HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i
72 (-) (_/ MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 JANUARY 11, 1999 1 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Wait. Excuse me, 2 Rosemary. Does this gentleman have a question on -- 3 MR. POWELL: Yes. May I speak briefly? 4 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Yes. Please. You 5 haven't had an opportunity. 6 MS. BASSILAKIS: I'm going to speak, 7 too, Wayne. Just so you know. 8 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Okay. 9 MR. POWELL: Go ahead. 10 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Please. No. Come @ 11 and -- come and ask your question. (} 12 MS. BASSILAKIS: Absolutely. Go right 13 ahead. 14 MR. POWELL: My name is Ralph Powell. I 15 arrived here tonight unprepared to make any comment. 16 But in observing the proceedings, I felt I should 17 express myself. We have all learned in school as
! 18 children that it is -- and in taught today, I believe, I: 19 that it's wrong to lie. And, yet, we have this !r 20 chronicle of lies that's being perpetuated. And the O
< 21 agency overseeing this and who is now evidenced to be i g 22 the initiator of lies, the Nuclear Regulatory b 23 Commission, I feel is -- they are capable of shame. 24 They should be feeling it at this time. O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
73 72 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 JANUARY 11, 1999 1 There is clearly a relationship of 2 cheerleaders for the industry, it seems, that the 3 function of the cheer and the function of the Nuclear J 4 Regulatory Commission as cheerleaders for ti'e industry 5 I think is getting very well documenter.. And it's l 6 disturbing to me personally to witness it and to have 7 attended two hearings in Washington and observed this 8 process personally. It's easy to slough it off if you 9 hear -- it's mere hearsay. But when one witnesses it - i l 10 - tonight, .9 we heard the comments of the purge of l l 11 what l employees, and that, I think, is very close to I'd V 12 happrns when there are whistleblowers. People who are 13 speaking out and trying to protect the health and 14 safety of the community are purged. And one is saying 15 that "Well, that's historic. That's in the past." And 16 then a gentleman comes forward and refutes that. But 17 then the committee comes back and says, "Well, yes.
! 18 Yes. It really isn't in the past. It was in the past, 1
19 but it really isn't in the past." So we have a i e 20 contradiction here rather like Hamlet had perhaps with O
- 21 ??? "I'm so tired tonight", aware that they were at the i b 22 window. Well, that cloud is very like a camel, is it l
l b 23 not? And oh, yes, yes, very much like a camel. But 24 perhaps it's more like a turtle. Oh, yes. Oh, indeed, O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l t
74 I- - MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 JANUARY 11, 1999 l 1 like a turtle. 1 i 2 So when the utility industry speaks, the 3 NRC, it seems, is most pliant. I'm concerned about , 4 word spinning, phrase laundering, cheerleading. I'm I 5 deeply -- I'm deeply discomfited by what I've witnessed l
- 6 both here and witnessed in Washington. And I see these l-l 7 kind and gracious people and some who have been very l 8 tormented by the very evils that this agency is here at l
9 public expense to protect us from, has not been 10 .,, protecting us. And they've come here to speak to those g 11 whom perhaps it would -- is increasingly clear are
~
l 12 among who are morally injured or morally perhaps they l 13 have been addressing the living dead. I feel most 14 discomfited to be witness to these proceedings. 1 15 Thank you for hearing me. l 16 CHAIRPERSON LANNING; Thank you. 17 (APPLAUSE)
! 18 MR. MILLER: I would just say one thing.
!I '; 19 In my comment about distinguishing the past from the ir 20 future, I was merely trying to say that while we cannot o
< 21 comment here on the past situation, I felt it important l.
l [ 22 for people-to know that we're looking at the situation b 23 in the plant today and making judgments on that and 24 reviewing it. The Commission won't allow restart of O. POST REPORTING SERVICE . HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l l L l-
p \ 75 L MEETING RE: MILLSTCNE UNITS 2 &3 I JANUARY 11, 1999 l 1 this. plant until that is -- you know, there's a I l 2 determination made that that environment is as it 3 should be. And I- didn't want anybody to leave here 4 wondering whether the fact that we can't give you 5 answers here tonight on that past report, you know, l 6 that we can't comment -- does that mean we can't 7 comment on the safety of the plant here today? The 8 plant is operating. Unit 3 is operating. And so we 9 have to have -- 10 A VOICE: (Indiscernible) 11 MR. MILLER: It should not be operating 12 -- it should not be operating if there isn't an
)(])
13 adequate, you know, work environment. And I just -- my 14 point is to make certain that folks don't take our 15 comment deferral or deferring comment on that report as ) 16 any walking away from the issue of the Safety-conscious 17 Work Environment as exists in the plant today. That
! 18 was the reason for that distinction.
19 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Go ahead. Ir 20 MS. BASSILAKIS: Rosemary Bassilakis O
- 21 again. I have before me a letter dated July 20 sent to j
22 Mr. Marty Bowlin, signed by Mr. Wayne Lanning. It's b 23 the letter which Wayne sent to Marty to tell him of l 24 their findings with regard to those workers who were () POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l l I ! l I
m 76 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 l JANUARY 11, 1999 1 laid off three years ago today. 2 And in it, it states, "The NRC staff 3 concluded that there was not sufficient evidence to 4 substantiate the allegations of discrimination." 5 Pretty black and white, pretty clear. Couldn't 6 substantiate any of these allegations of these poor 7 people who were involved in protected activity and who 8 lose their jobs, who were escorted by -- with security 9 guards off premise 'the minute, you know, the minute 10 they got their pink slip. They couldn't go back to l; 11 their desks. People who worked there for over 10, 20 (} i 12 years had to immediately leave the premises. i
- 13. I mean my heart's pounding. I can't 14 imagine how it would feel to be one of those workers i
15 right now. j l 16 But, according to the OIG report, you l l 17 made some Level i violations disappear. According to ' I 18 the OIG report, you made Level 1, the most serious, 19 violations disappear. So what comes to my mind is what !
!r 20 else have you made disappear?
o
- 21 (APPLAUSE) 1 l 22 MS. BASSILAKIS: And as Charlie said --
h 23 he took the words right out of my mouth. Everything up 24 to this point, all the decisions that you have made are O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l l
77 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3
- h JANUARY 11, 1999 1 suspect, including the restart of Unit 3.
-2 (APPLAUSE) h 3 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: You know, I'm at a 4 disadvantage.
5 MS. BASSILAKIS: Wait a minute. I'm not 6 .done. 7 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Okay. 8 A VOICE: Don't shirk her off. l 9 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Let me just l I 10 respond to you, Rosemary. Let me respond to you. It's j l 11 very difficult for me to sit here and not respond to
]
12 your comments and others' comments -- 13 A VOICE: Oh. 14- CHAIRPERSON LANNING: -- because, as I 15 explained at the beginning, it's just inappropriate for 16 us to do that tonight and here. There will be a time 17 where we will be able to respond and tell you the rest I 18 of the story or additional details. But, you know, it 19 pains me deeply to sit here because, as you know, I lr 20 personally have spent a lot of time in connecticut i o
= 21 trying to regain credibility.
I g 22 MS. BASSILAKIS: A lot more than you h 23 thought you would back in the beginning. That is for 24 sure. POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l l
I 78 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 O JANUARY 11, 1999 1 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: And I think we 2 made successes. And I hate for us to lose those based 3 on this single report at this time without the process 4 going to completion. 5 MS. BASSILAKIS: Listen. You know? ' 6 I've got teenagers at home. You guys know that. And I 7 when they caught lying, one of the most terrifying 8 things to me is that I have to then-realize that they l 9 lie. It's not that we caught them once, the only time l 10 they.ever lied. It's, in fact, something that goes on. g 11 And you got caught erasing Level 1 12 violations. And we have to ask ourselves what you've I {]) L 13 made disappear. And I'm sorry that this pains you. 14 But this where we sit now. 15 And I just don't just want the bad guys 16 from the NRC gone and NU gone. I want Units 2 and 3 ! 17 shut down permanently because we're sick of having to i! 18 track this. l 19 (APPLAUSE) 20 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: If 1 -- o ' < 21 MS. BASSILAKIS: We will never be able l nukes l l- 22 to rest in this state as long as those are h 23 running because NU will slip, you guys will slip and, 24 if the public is not around to say, " Hey, Senators, O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
79 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 O JANUARY 11, 1999 1 something stinks over there. Write a letter and get it I 2 investigated", we won't be safe. 3 (APPLAUSE) 4 MR. MILLER: If it were, like it 5 appears, that there was a legitimate Level 1 violation 6 that was out there and then retracted in some 7 mysterious way, I'd feel like you do. And, again, as I l 8 say, I've been out of the picture for a while and 9 coming back to this. And so .T'm coming at it cold. 10 But I'll just say -- l 11 A VOICE: (Indiscernible) 12 MR. MILLER: But I'll just say sitting (]} 13 here listening to you, I can understand why you feel 14 the way you do. Because if that's what the situation 15 was, it would be bad news for NRC. 16 A VOICE: Oh, this has been going on for 17 three years.
! 18 MR. MILLER: Well, I'm just, you know, 1
19 telling you that I'm hearing what you're saying. I i e 20 understand your concern. And what Wayne is saying is o
- 21 right. I mean you have to wait to see what finally 1
22 comes of this. l
! 23 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: All right. I want 24 to get to the rest of the agenda, Mr. Collins.
O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
i l 80 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3
) JANUARY 11, 1999 I I
1 A VOICE: We want to hear him speak. 2 MR. COLLINS: Would you rather I don't 3 speak right now or -- 4 A VOICE: We want to hear him. 5 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: I know. But -- is 6 it quite -- we want to get on the agenda and we've 7 spent well over 45 minutes on this topic. 8 MR. COLLINS: Well -- i i 9 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Can it wait until l I 10 after Bill Dean gives you a status of Safety-Conscious l 11 Work Environment? 12 MR. COLLINS: Yes. It can certainly
)
13 wait. l
\
14 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: You can be the 15 first one. Okay? 16 Bill? 17 MR. WILLIAM DEAN: The last time we met fo 18 was December 14. We had a public meeting here to I
, 19 solicit comments from the public regarding the issue of 1 lr 20 closure of the order, the Safety-Conscious Work O
a 21 Environment, Employee Concerns Program order that l 22 established Little Harbor consultants as the l b 23 independent third-party oversight organization. 24 The transcript of that meeting was O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
p l l l 81 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 () JANUARY 11, 1999 1 provided to the Commission in a memo that was forwarded l 2 to them late last week. So I'm not sure whether it's 3 made it through the concurrence chain or not. But they 4 should have it, if not today, by tomorrow. 5 The major issues that emerged out of 6 that meeting was that a number of members of the local 7 stakeholders that were here were concerned that Little 8 Harbor Consultants would be terminated, that they felt 9 that with the situation ongoing with Unit 2 in a 10 recovery mode, with the pending refueling outage for l 11 Unit 3, as well as the management reorganization, that 12 Little Harbor (]} Consultants should be retained for some 13 period of time until that stressful period passed so 14 that there would be somewhat of a safety net there in 15 case issues emerged. 16 Another key point that was raised by a 1 17 number of local stakeholders was that perhaps instead l
! 18 of closing the order, the order could be suspended 19 somehow so that Little Harbor Consultants, if need be, !r 20 could be quickly restored to the site in case there was o - 21 evidence of backsliding or. issues that emerged, if that l
22 did occur. Those constituted the two major concerns or l b 23 issues. Otherwise -- although there were other issues 24 and concerns raised that are captured in that l POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
F l I 82 o MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 i JANUARY 11, 1999 1 transcript.
'2' The reason we held this meeting was to !
l l 3 gather this information because the staff has provided l l 4 the Commission its recommendation in a Commission paper i l 5 regarding closing the order and terminating Little 6 Harbor Consultants as an independent third-party 7 oversight organization. ; 8 Little Harbor Consultants, in their 9 third-quarter report and also at t hat meeting on the 10 14th, indicated that they would support that decision, y 11 that they believe that the Safety-Conscious Work l (} 12 Environment and the Employee Concerns Program at 13 Millstone has been improved to the point that they are 14 no longer required _to be on site, i 15 It should be noted that as part of its i 16 assessment plan of Northeast Utilities, they intend to 17 bring Little Harbor back for periodic audits l 18 approximately on a quarterly basis for the next year, I 19
- to perform audits, at which time the results of those ie 20 audits would be shared with the public in a public e
< 21 meeting with Northeast Utilities and the NRC present.
l l 22 That was a key aspect of their long-term oversight l
! 23 plan.
l 24 We, the NRC, recognize that there's D POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
83 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 O JANUARY 11, 1999 1 still fragility at the site with a number of the issues 2 that the public raised. We took those into 3 consideration in making our recommendation to the 4 Commission. 5 But it's also'important to know -- a lot 6 of you have expressed that observation tonight -- that 7 the safety-Conscious Work Environment at Millstone has 8 improved, that it's a different Millstone in that 9 regard, that people feel comfortable in raising safety 10 issues. Over the last three or four cultural surveys, l# 11 that figure has been well into the 90 percent of ) () 12 employees that felt comfortable to raise safety issues 13 at Millstone. 14 Based on that type of information, as 15 well as the effectiveness of the Employee Concerns 16 Program, the staff does feel more comfortable in 17 recommending to the Commission termination of the order I 18 or closure of the order which would result in oittle 1
- 19 Harbor Consultants then being terminated as a ir 20 contractor, an independent third-party oversight.
O
= 21 This issue is going to be discussed I
22 January 19 at a Commission meeting. l That's scheduled 23 for the afternoon of the 19th. I believe that the 24 secretary of the Commission has contacted a number of O POST REPORTING SERVICE RAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 I . . . . . _ . . . . . . .
84 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 O JANUARY 11, 1999 1 the local -- pertinent local stakeholders to ask them 2 to provide comments or written statements which would 3 be provided to the Commission. This would be as a 4 supplement to the transcript and the results of the 5 meeting that we had back in December the 14th. 6 That's about it. That's about where we 7 stand now with Employee Concerns Program and Safety-8 Conscious Work Environment since the last meeting. 9 I'd be willing to entertain any 10 questions. l; 11 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Mr. Collins first. (} 12 MR. DEAN: Yes. Mr. Collins? 13 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Mr. Collins, to 14 talk about, ask questions about Safety-Conscious Work
+
15 Environment? 16 MR. COLLINS: Yes. There was one, one 17 issue. The report that just came out, the OIG report.
! 18 There was a friend of mine, a good friend of mine, Mark i: 19 Salmon, who used to work for me, used be to my i
r 20 supervisor. Ne both got terminated on the same day. o a 21 One of the key performance indicators for -- 1 22 A VOICE: l Can't hear you. 23 MR. COLLINS: I'm sorry. One of the key 24 performance indicators for letting Little Harbor go was O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
r; l [ 85 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 JANUARY 31, 1999 1 that there's no backsliding and complacency. I gave 2 some evidence that there was. And I'm not saying that l 3 they didn't improve the Safety-conscious Work 4 Environment. My concern is that when you make q J 5 statements like "There is no evidence of backsliding. l 6 There's no evidence of complacency", I think to be 7 truthful and honest you should just say that "There was 8 some evidence, but it wasn't significant." So I think 9 maybe it's more of a semantic thing. I'm not saying 10 that there's a significant concern with what actually ; l l' 11 happened. I'm more concerned with trying to represent () 12 something a little better than it may have been. 13 And I have another concern on the key 14 performance indicators, which was that there wasn't a 15 50.7 violation since July of 1997. For people who 16 don't know, that's terminating somebody for raising i 17 safety concerns or discriminating against ~them. In ! I 18 this case, Mark Salmon was the person who was I 19 terminated and it looks like illegally terminated back 20 when I was in January of '96, has been hired back at 0
- 21 Millstone as a consultant. And he's working there i
j 22 right now. 23 Now, he filed a complaint about that 24 with the Employee Concerns Pre , ram and he filed it in POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
86 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 JANUARY 11, 1999 1 the middle of'1998. Now, what happened to that concern i 2 was it was not substantiated by NU Employee Concerns 3 Program. Billie Garde took a look at that and she 4 said, "This doesn't make sense to me. I think this j 5 probably should have been substantiated", which seems 6 to make sense now that we see that the NRC did 7 substantiate that he was, in fact, illegally terminated 8 or it appears that way. We'll find out more about that 9 later. 10 So Billie Garde sent it back. This is
@ 11 before the November meeting to decide on whether Little ;
(} 12 Harbor should go away or not. And somehow the ) 13 paperwork was lost and it was lost at a period of time i 14 just before the key performance indicators were 15 presented to the NRC. 16 So I have a concern now that's being 17 investigated; is it seemed like an awful convenient I 18 time for that paperwork to get lost. I-19 A VOICE: What paperwork was that again? Ir 20 MR. COLLINS: The paperwork was Mark O
- 21 Salmon filed a concern that he was illegally terminated
.i 22 back in January with NU Employee Concerns Program.
2 23 A VOICE: Okay. 24 MR. COLLINS: So it appears that this O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-41C2 l 1 i
T. l 87 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 JANUARY 11, 1999 l- 1 paperwork may have been kind of ditched by the NRC and l 2 then later ditched by NU. That's being looked into. 3 That's just an allegation. It hasn't been proved. 4 Just what's the percentage of paperwork 5 lost? I mean why didn't they tell him that the 6 paperwork was lost and ask him to resubmit it? And why _ 1 7 was it lost in such a suspicious manner and in kind of l 8 a suspicious point in time? That's all. 9 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Okay. 10 MR. COLLINS: I don't know how much more 11 l time I have. There was an issue I was going to go 12 into. It was related to the importance of 13 investigating the concerns by NRC, which was a previous 14 topic. I hope you'll grant me a couple of minutes. 15 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Sure. Go ahead. 16 MR. COLLINS: Okay. This is something I 17 that's bothered me and caused Rosemary a little bit of I 18 concern because she lives, I believe, for many years I-19 near the Connecticut Yankee plant. Ir 20 I hp.en't brought this up before, but I o
- 21 think it's kind of appropriate to talk about it now. j i
j 22 And the subject is why I believe I was terminated from b 23 Connecticut Yankee. I was an instrumentation engineer. ! l 24 And I'll make this as brief as possible. I was an l O POST REPORTING SERVICE l HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
88 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3
.O JANUARY 11, 1999 1- instrumentation engineer over there and I raised a 2 couple of concerns.
3 One concern was that the reactor vessel 4 level indication system was effectively blind because 5 they'd' lost so many sensors they couldn't tell in an 6 ' accident where the water .'evel was. 7 I went to the NRC with that and they 8 .said that they realize that it's a concern, but they 9 don't want to change the standards, tech specs. And i 10 that caused some aggravation between me and the reactor l; 11 engineer who was at Connecticut Yankee. () 12 The next concern was -- caused a concern 13 with the same person. Now this person's been promoted 14 to Operations Manager. I brought up a concern that we 15 hadn't done any safety set -- or about half of the i 16 safety set point calcs hadn't been done at Connecticut ! 17 Yankee. So we couldn't verify that the plant would
! 18 trip before it reached safety limits. And I'm not i i: 19 saying it wouldn't urip. I was just saying that we i
t 20 need to do calculations to do it. When I did it, I O 21 found out that about a dozen of them, there was no I [. 22 evidence that it would have tripped before safety 23 limits were reached. So I consider that a pretty ( 24 significant thing. C:) POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l L
89 f MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 ( JANUARY 11, 1999 1 The Operations Manager was very irate, 2 saying no. He decided it didn't have to be done and 3 that I shouldn't do it because it was a waste of 4 resources. I insisted that they be done. And he had 5 the power to approve or disapprove projects. I knew he 6 wasn't going to approve the project. Went to my 7 supervisor and we sort of did it -- we sort of did an 8 envelope around him. So basically, I had to do a 9 little bit of lying and cheating in order to just 10 ensure the safety of the plant. So it took me two j 11 years to get this done. My supervisor gave a Spot f^) V 12 Recognition Award and wrote me a letter of 13 commendation. He sent a copy to this Operations 14 Manager and to the Director of Engineering. The 15 Director of Engineering put me on a termination list 16 two years later -- two months later, rather, he pu' me 17 down for termination. And he did that over the
! 18 objection of both my supervisor and my manager. ; 19 Normal procedure would have been for my ir 20 manager to do that. But I got kind of special O
- 21 treatment. That was what my concern was about. But i
j 22 that's a concern that was never investigated by the 23 NRC. 24 Now, that's not so bad. I mean it just O POST REPORTING SERVICE l HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
1 l
)
90 ! f- MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 l (,g) JANUARY 11, 1999 l 1 affects me personally. But the problem is that that 2 Operations Manager was the one who was held responsible 1 3 a few months later when they lost reactor water level ' l 4 at Connecticut Yankee. There was an incident that 5 almost uncovered the core. 6 Now, if you investigate and you remove 7 those people from the office, their offices, before 8 that kind of thing happens, then that might be a good 9 safety plus. And the other person, the Director of 10 Engineering, who is still there, was held responsible
@ 11 for when they just broke the reactor cooling piping in
(} 12 half at Connecticut Yankee during the decommissioning 13 process. 14 Now, that's another thing that perhaps 15 should be looked into. Maybe these people can stay 16 where they are. Maybe they can't. Put we're never 17 going to know unless the NRC does some of these
! 18 investigations.
19 (APPLAUSE) i 20 A VOICE: Remarkable. Isn't it 1 o a 21 remarkable? My God. l 22 A VOICE: On the issue of Safety-l l 23 Conscious Work Environment, I'm in business time to 24 time in my life. And I know when I hire to do someone, u) POST REPORTING SERVICE j HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 ! l l t
i 91 p MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 V JANUARY 11, 1999 l 1 I do contract with them. They only get paid if t uey I 2 perform to what I want. Anyone to call Little Harbor 3 an independent third party is full of crap, to state it 4 nicely. So let's not hear any more of that. Nothing 5 independent about Little Harbor when they're being paid 6 by Northeast Utilities. They've guided and taught them 7 the process to get your approval. They did a report i 8 and they set out to do a job for Northeast Utilities { 9 and they did the job for Northeast Utilities, not for 10 the NRC and not for the public safety. So please, in 11 l the future, no more of this independent -- it would be 12 a good idea to get a real independent third-party 13 person to look at Safety Conscious Work Environment, 14 however. I would suggest that. 15 Now, when you go to do a Safety-16 Conscious Work Environment inspection, do you have a 17 certain number for that or something? You know, do one
! 18 before you let two open up? Well, when you did one on 1 19 3, it was kind of odd that you had a staff person -- I 20 remember at tne time she was a woman where this O < 21 gentleman was, talking about how she had done the j i
j 22 inspection and she's on the case and, boy, e"arything's b 23 all right. But for some reason, that woman -- I wish I 24 remembered her name, but it slips. She had not read O POST REPORTING SERVICE l i HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
92
,- MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3
(,)s JANUARY 11, 1999 1 transcripts of public meetings that addressed issues of 2 Safety-Conscious Work Environment like the gentleman 3 that spoke this evening. She missed all that, didn't 4 know anything about it because she hadn't read the 5 transcripts of these public meetings. It's amazing. 6 Now, also, she hadn't even read the Day, 7 you know, which at least reports some of the stuff. 8 They've had pretty regular stories about safety. She 9 hadn't even read the stories in the Day. But here you 10 have a staff person saying everything's okay. That was l 11 ignorant of some of the most basic things that were [~) V 12 said about the Safety-Conscious Work Environment. And 13 I hope the NRC puts a staff person for the 2 14 certification who is a little knowledgeable and has 15 been paying a little more attention. 16 And I would like to know when the 17 statement was made by -- I believe it was the gentlemen
! 18 right directly in front of me here, about the issue of 19 this IG report is historical and has no effect on r 20 today. I'm certainly glad you backtracked a little bit 0 i 21 from that statement because that was just an absolutely I
j 22 incredible statement. b 23 After these couple of gentlemen spoke 24 earlier, they definitely ndicated that they'd been
/"
U) POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 I
r 93 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 JANUARY 11, 1999
-1 affected_and they're affected today by this IG report l 2 and it has an effect today. It's not historical and in 3 the past.
4- MR. MILLER: And, of course, it has a ! 5 profound effect as it relates to credibility. And so 6 in that respect, it absolutely has to do with today. 7 A VOICE: And I think we should remember 8 that, again, that it was not the NRC that was doing the 9 firing at Northeast . Utilities. And I know certain 10 individuals perceived it as their job to criticize NRC 1=l- 11 to divert attention away from Northeast ' ilities. But 12 No. I (]) -- I don't know if he's still here or not. I 13 guess he's left. But that's his job is to criticize 14 you to take the heat off his employer. So when you 15 hear some of that stuff, well, it's true, but just 16 realize where he's coming from. When you hear it from 17 me, it's from a different place totally.
! 18 Mr. Mastrianno mentioned this thing --
- 19 now, I don't care if the NRC is credible or not ir 20 credible. I've never thought from day one when Mr.
O a 21' Livingfall here, one of your predecessors, in the past i j 22 said nuclear power certainly had to come -- right? b 23 What did he say? What did he say? Oh. "I try to 24 inculcate in others the belief that so terrible a O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 . l I
94 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 O' JANUARY 11, 1999 1 weapon certainly had to have a peaceful use. And that 2 was the mission of the Atomic Energy Commission. And l 3 then, thus,. the goal and the purpose of the Nuclear 4 Regulatory Commission still goes on. 5 If you want another GAO report attacking l 6 you, please ignore Mr. Mastrianno. I've been in 7 contact with my former Congresswoman. I'm in contact l 8 with my new Congresswoman and other Senators and 9 Congressmen presently sitting in the new Congress. And 10 I'm urging them to get a GAO report. And I believe
'y 11 others are that have a little more influence than I.
(} 12 And it's getting pretty close that this issue is going 13 to GAO. So if you want to save a little face, let's 14 get it out and get it down with. Let's have a walk-l L 15 down with Mr. Mastrianno, with some independent person l 16 that's technically knowledgeable. Even if NU says they i L 17 don't want that person, they go. . I ! 18 (APPLAUSE) l: 19 A VOICE: Does anyone else have anything ir 20 on the Safety-Conscious Work Environment? Because I l 0
- 21 have some other things. But we'll come back.
l l [I 22 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: All right. Yes. a 23 MR. MASTRIANNO: My brain isn't as good 24 as it used to be because it's a travesty. Mr. Lanning, O POST REPORTING SERVICE
- HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i
(
t 95 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 JANUARY 11, 1999 l 1 you started to say that you were well aware of my i 2 problem. Is that a fair statement, sir? 3 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Yes, sir. In 4 fact, we've given you credit for identifying l 5 deficiencies with fire penetrations. Yes, sir. And 6 we've addressed- your concerns. Yes, sir. We're 7 corresponding to you regarding those concerns. 8 MR. MASTRIANNO: But it's still an l 9 unresolved issue. 10 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Well, you've got j 11 to understand what unresolved means in the regulatory i 12 arena. I think that means -- help me here, David. i
) Is 13 that enforcement unresolved or is that inspection 14 final, closure?
15 MR. BEAULIEU: I believe the -- I 16 believe you're referring to a penetration that didn't 17 have a QC Inspector's signature regarding the depth of l I 18 a particular fire foam and that particular penetration. I: 19 And the reason why the QC Inspector didn't sign for it h r 20 was because he couldn't physically get to it at the o
- 21- time. This was a historical work order and there was l
22 no QC signature, l b 23 We looked at it and we had problems with l 24 that. We couldn't just drop that the licensee has to POST REPORTING SERVICE i HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l l 1 l
96 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 O JANUARY 11, 1999 1 confirm-one way or the other, is this penetration at 2 the right depth or not? Just -- we just don' t consider 3 having no signature there.to be satisfactory. 4 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: And just for your 5 information, Tom, we document our inspection results 6 every six weeks, r.hereabouts. And so it doesn't mean j 7 that we're concluded with that issue. It means that -- i 8 unresolved means we'll be following up to close out 9 that issue one way or the other. 10 MR. MASTRIANNO: . Well, I -- l 11 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Wait. Before we 12 go on, we're going to talk about topics that Mr. Dean 13 raised now, not your personal concerns. But -- 14 MR. MASTRIANNO: Well, how could you 15 have a Safety-Conscious Work Environment when you have 16 bad fire foaming, a bad past system and other problems 17 at the plants? How could you have that when the work
! 18 environment is not safe? And I specifically brought -- ; 19 I have offered myself to go for a walk-down and seven, !r 20 eight months ago I proposed a few people to go with me.
O ' = 21 The licensee said no. And the NRC backed the licensee. l l 22 Then I proposed to go on my own as long as I had an l 23 attorney or something. And this whole thing is still 24 up in the air. I believe NU counsel is faxing back O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
97 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 O JANUARY 11, 1999 1 letters and there's all kind of stalling done by j t 2 Northeast Utilities and their-Washington lawyers and ) 1 3 their corporate lawyers. I 4 And I'm saying publicly now I will go 5 with Mr. Lanning, Mr. Durr, Ms. Jackson, anybody, and 6 I'll point out specific bad fire foaming that it will 7 be by an independent team to be inspected by. Someone ,
)
8 that will have credibility and doesn't have a stake in 9 it. And if that's done at Unit 3, it should be shut 10 down and Unit 2 should be repaired before it came on 11 line. And I -- I have specific areas. I have copious l f'l 12 notes. And the NRC has told everybody and their J 13 brother that I'm credible and believable. But instead 14 of being that, I've been pushed around, harassed, 15 intimidated. And I believe you people have become 1 16 aware of the issue many months ago now, at the ! 17 beginning of '98, and it's still a not-resolved issue.
! 18 There's one specific that Mr. Beaulieu i: 19 gives. But I gave other specifics. I drew charts in
!r 20 the meeting there. I sincerely, sincerely and 0
- 21 unequivocally tried to point out some problems so that i
j 22 plant could be better so everyone feels secure about b 23 it. And the issue is sti L not resolved. And it's so 24 sickening to know how a person can get ruined. () POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
98 rS MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3
's_) JANUARY 11, 1999 1 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Yes, sir. But, 2 Tom --
3 MR. MASTRIANNO: You have allowed it. 4 You are the regulatory agency that oversees Northeast 5 Utilities. And they ruined me. I brought up these 6 issues in 1988. Control rod drive issue. Control room 7 ceiling issue. Post-accident sampling system issue. I 8 can identify the hangers that are improperly installed. 9 The bolts are not torqued properly. The bolts will , l 10 come out. They're supposed to seismic. I gave $ 11 hangers. I gave the numbers. Nothing been done. The {} 12 tooling is bad. 13 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: That's not true, l 14 Tom. We've -- l 15 MR. MASTRIANNO: Well, they've been 16 repaired. Maybe they've been repaired in the last -- 17 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: I don't want to
! 18 debate it with you, Tom. We have concerns. I think 19 we've inspected them. And if you have additional, new Ir 20 information, we'd be more than happy to sit down and o < 21 talk with you again. ! I j 22 Isn't it also true that we made special i b 23 arrangements for this tour on several occasions and you 24 have cancelled that or your attorney has? Now, I don't O
U POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i l
93 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS.2 & 3 O JANUARY 11, 1999 1 want to get defensive in this -- 2- MR. MASTRIANNO: No. But -- 3 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: I want you to 4 understand -- 5 MR. MASTRIANNO: Because you didn't 6 allow one person on my side -- just me and my attorney 7 24 people of NU and NRC people. There is intimidation. 8 I'm a human being. They could spin me around, put me - 9 - I could ask to go to one area and they could put in 10 another area. And I'm a human bcing. And I'm under a @ 11 lot of financial pressure. I have no roof over my 12 head. 13 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: I understand. 14 MR. MASTRIANNO: You understand? 15 CHAIRPERJON LANNING: I understand. 16 MR. MASTRIANNO: And I'm not going to 17 just succumb to their intimidation and harassment, I 18 which I have experienced in the past. And the coats 1 19
- are still there. So I asked for one or two people nore i
e 20 than once, industry people, industry people from the O a 21 manufacturer, from Dow-Corning, et cetera. They were i j 22 denied. I asked for other people, inside people from i 23 NU, a supervisor that's currently there. That was 24 denied. I asked for other people. Every single person ( ! POST REPORTING SERVICE j HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 '
rc 100 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 O JANUARY 11, 1999 1 I've proposed has been denied. So that's not fair. 2 This is America. You want to go on a walk-down 24 to ! 3 1. And it's been a while since I've been in there. 4 And I will feel pressure. I admit it. I will feel l 5 pressure. It's been consistent pressure for 10 years 6 now, 11 years. We're in 1999. These were dealt in 7 1988. Instead of dealing with it, they sent me to a 8 psychiatric hospital. Well, the next time that you do I 9 that, maybe they should send you to a psychiatric 10 hospital. l 11 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: No. I'm -- (} 12 MR. MASTRIANNO: I brought these issues 13 up in the Connecticut Yankee for the betterment of the i i 14 health and public so I could feel better working there l 15 in 1988. We're in 1999 and the issues are still l l 16 unresolved. And I'm willing to go on a walk-down and 17 I'm making -- again, I'm willing to go on a walk-down.
! 18 Allow me a few people, industry people -- it's your i: 19 choice --
but are knowledgeable, credible and ir 20 engineering and know what they're talking about. O i a 21 And I was asked by Mr. Beaulieu and NU L 0 22 engineers specifics. I supplied that in the meeting l 23 and et cetera. And the walk-down was cancelled and has 24 still been cancelled. And it's sad and it's O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
101 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 JANUARY 11, 1999 1 disheartening. The plant is on line and one other 2 plant is coming on line. And the fire foaming and past l 3 issue is still not resolved. May God strike me dead if 4 it is. I don't want to live -- I don't want to live. 5 I don't want to look at you people no more. You 6 failed. You failed. You failed tremendously to the 7 people. 8 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Tom, I will 9 continue to work with you to get you that tour. 10 All right. Other questions? Mr. l 11 Markowicz? 12 MR. MASTRIANNO: Are you giving me 13 another walk-down schedule? 14 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Mr. Markowicz? 15 MR. JOHN MARKOWICZ: John Markowicz, 16 Waterford, Connecticut. At the earlier meetings, Bill, 17 you correctly characterized the recommendation I made
! 18 with respect to the lifting of the order suggesting k 19
- that perhaps instead of lifting the order, that it be ir 20 suspended. So at least -- I think at that time my O. )
- 21 suggestion was at least until management reorganization i i
g 22 is completed and Millstone 2 is restarted or for some b 23 short period thereafter. 24 And I understand your recommendation. I O POST REPORTING SERVICE l' HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
T. i 102 f- MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 JANUARY 11, 1999 1 understand the process that you described that you made 2 to the staff. I'd like to ask, though, that you 3 reconsider the recommendation for a very different 4 reason. It's been very apparent this evening that 5 there is much concern on the part of the public because 6 of the Inspector General report and it's been at least 7 indicated by Susan Perry Luxton that she has received 8 phone calls from the company that there was some 9 concerns on the part of some employees relative to 10 their ability to trust the activity of your agency. I g 11 By lifting the order at this time, 12 before there is closure on the Inspector General issue,
/}
13 you don't allow the employees a safety valve for those 14 that might be reluctant still to go to ECP and now 15 don't trust the NRC. 16 MR. MILLER: We'll make sure that the i 17 Commission understands this comment along with the ! I 18 previous one that you made. I: 19 MR. MARKOWICZ: Thank you. ir 20 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Any other comments O
= 21 about the Safety-Conscious Work Environment i ,
g 22 presentation by Mr. Dean? l h 23 Yes, sir, Mr. McKeown. 24 MR. RON McKEOWN: My name is Ron POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
[. 103 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 l l O JANUARY 11, 1999 i, J1 McKeown, Friends of a Safe Millstone. At the last I 2 hearing, Friends of a Safe Millstone concurred with Mr. 3 Markowicz and suggested that it would be -- that his I 4 comments had wisdom and erred on the side of puolic i 5 confidence. We' would suggest that the Commission I 6 seriously look at his suggestions and keep within the 7 mission that Shirley Jackson has offered to the public 8 and to err on the side of confidence. And a little 9' more time wouldn't hurt.
~
10 Thank you. l; 11 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Thanks, Ron. j i 12 Okay. Any other questions or comments (]) 13 on Safety-Conscious Work Environment? Okay. We're I 14 going to move into the status of the Independent 15' Corrective Action Verification Program. 16 Mr. Imbro? 17 MR. EUGENE IMBRO: Thank you, Wayne.
! 13 Just to change gears a little bit, I-l 19 As you
- wanted to talk about the status of the ICAVP.
!r 20 know, the ICAVP has been ongoing for probably two years o
a 21 now. On Unit 2, Parsons has completed the problem 1 22 identification phase. That was completed in December.
-l b 23 And' resolution was reached on all of the items. And by 24 resolution, I mean that Parsons and company agreed, O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
104 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 O- JANUARY 11, 1999 1 came to an agreement as to what the problems were and 2 which weren't problems. 3 Parsons issued a report. in early 4 December to the executives in the executive summary. 5 The final report, total report, should be out about l 6 today or tomorrow. There were some problems by 7 Parsons. 8 The final rack-up'of DR's is as follows: l l 9 75 Level 3 DR's. And, again, Level 3 DR's are issues 10 where safety systems would have performed their j:- 11 function; however, they were not in compliance with the t {} 12 design / licensing bases. There were 521 Level 4 DR's 13 substantiated. And those Level 4 DR's again are minor 14 type errors, calculational errors, of a minor nature, 15 data transposition errors, things that in and of itself 16 do not put the plant outside its licensing basis. . 1 17 What's left yet before us to do is to 1 l l 18 review the corrective actions for the DR's, for the , ; 19 Level 3 DR's. And what Parsons will do is review
'b l t 20 corrective actions for 30 of the 75 and NRC will review O
a 21 the corrective actions for the remaining. And there 22 will be some -- we'll also look at some that Parsons l ! b 23 has looked at. So the corrective action for all the l l 24 Level 3 DR's we'll review. ' O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l I
F 105 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 O JANUARY 11, 1999 1 NU -- and this will occur, of course, 2 pending NU's completion of the corrective actions. 3 Right now,'they're -- I think they're projecting a date i 4 of January 25 for this. At that time, Parsons -- or
)
5 close to that time, Parsons will come to the site to 6 look at- the corrective actions. We will be on-site I 7 also to monitor that. And NEAC, of course,-is also 8 invited to observe to whatever level they wish to. l 9 What's left for NRC to do then also is i ! 10 to do -- we need to do a final corrective action _l 11 inspection as well, as I said, to look at the other -- 12 well, two areas, really. To look at the esolution of 13 the issues that we've identified in our previous 14 inspections. I think you know that we've conducted 15 probably three or four inspections related to ICAVP. 16 And so we want to make sure that those items are 17 properly resolved and, in addition, to look at the I ! 18 corrective actions that have resulted from the ICAVP.
; 19 So, essentially, the ICAVP is nearing ,
20 closure and should have a -- the final report should be o l
- 21 available, like I say, probably today or -- it could
- I 22 have been today or tomorrow, l
b 23 Parsons will issue a supplement to that, 24 to that report, to address their look at the corrective POST REPORTING SERVICE
- HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
l I
106 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 O JANUARY 11, 1999 1 actions. 2 That's pretty much where we are with 3 ICAVP. Can I answer any questions? Okay. Please. 4 Rosemary. 5 MS. BASSILAKIS: Until the units are 6 permanently-shut down, I'm forced to sit before you and 7 try to understand these issues. I take it from what 8 you're saying that you've chosen not to increase the 9 scope of the ICAVP. 10 MR. IMBRO: That's correct. Yes. There 11 was no -- yes. Based on the criteria, there was no 12 need to do that. 13 MS. BASSILAKIS: You sort of sidestepped ! 14 that. 15 MR. IMBRO: We didn't sidestep it. I l 16 mean.there's not a problem.
-17 MS. BASSILAKIS: Well, it just never got ! 18 mentioned.
l: 19 MR. IMBRO: Okay.
!r 20 MS. BASSILAKIS: Because there was a i
0
< 21 question of whether or not they would --
1 22 MR. IMBRO: You're right. We did not l b 23 increase the scope. That's correct. 24 MS. BASSILAKIS: Okay. I guess that's O POST REPORTING SERVICE l HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
p 107 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 O JANUARY 11, 1999 1 it. 2 MR. IMBRO: Okay. 3 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Other questions? 4 MR. IMBRO: Any other questions please? 5 A VOICE: I guess there were no Level 2 l l 6 or Level 1 violations for Unit 27 7 MR. IMBRO: No, there were not. 8 A VOICE: There was some talk of -- I 9 MR. IMBRO: There were -- no. You're j 10 right. Initially, I think Parsons had initially j 11 indicated five Level l's and I think maybe one Level 2. (} 12 And I guess that was in the preliminary phase. When 13 they were looked at by the company, actually some came i 14 to us for resolution. Those all either became Level 15 3's or in some cases actually became non-discrepant 16 because the issues that were raised by Parsons were 17 issues that were -- did not affect the plant because
! 18 the plant had been licensed that way.
19 Now, in some instances we've asked the 20 licensee to- go forward and do additional corrective O
= 21 actions, modify the licensing basis, for example.
l g 22 A VOICE: Okay. Well, there was a l 23 problem with a backup generating system in one of the 24 Level -- some diesel leakage? O POST REPORTING SERVICE l HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
I- 1 108 ( I MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 I () JANUARY 11, 1999 1 MR. IMBRO: Yes. Yes. That's correct. 2 A VOICE: That's been resolved? l 3 MR..IMBRO: DR-312. Yes. , l 4 A VOICE: Has that been resolved? 5 MR. IMBRO: Yes. That was resolved by 6 NRC. We felt that the licensing basis was appropriate. l 7 And the licensee also took some corrective action in 8 that regard, too, by changing some procedures. The 9 issue was water issues or water leakage into the buried 10 tank. And we looked at the issue. We felt that the -- l 11 we looked at the licensee's sampling. We thought the 12 sampling was adequate. It's required by tech specs. (]} 13 So it's not something that they have to do by 14 regulation, by the terms of the license. 15 The licensee also changed some 16 procedures where -- and conditions where they 17 anticipated hurricane. They would terminate, you know,
! 18 by the transfer function from the -- from that buried h-19 tank to the other tanks inside the building until they ir 20 could verify that there was no water.
O
= 21 A VOICE: Okay. I'm concerned about the k !'
22 backup systems. I want to make sure that they're going l
! 23 to be working before Unit 2 starts up.
24 MR. IMBRO: That was a valid concern. j O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
I L 109 l MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 (_-~) JANUARY 11, 1999 1 A VOICE: Okay. And about deferred l l 2 items on Item 2, are there -- is there a list of I 3 deferred items as there was in Unit 3? 4 MR. IMBRO: Well, there -- 5 A VOICE: A backlog that will be -- 6 MR. IMBRO: There is. And -- yes. At 7 least in -- I could speak for the ICAVP, not the other. 8 All the issues, the Level -- so-called Level 3 issues 9 where they need to restore compliance -- need to 10 complete corrective action to restore compliance with y 11 the licensing basis, those will be completed prior to 12 restart. f) 13 The other issues, you know, the minor
]
14 issues, the Level 4's, some have been completed. Some 15 will be deferred. There's really no need to actually 16 have all of that work completed prior to restart 17 because they really don't affect the safety of the
! 18 plant.
1-19 A VOICE: Okay. But that number will be ir 20 like 500 or less? O
- 21 MR. IMBRO: Well, right now -- yes. I'd I
g 22 assume so. It's 521. That's right.
! 23 A VOICE: 521 Level 4's. '
24 MR. IMBRO: So -- (d POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
- ?
l u _
r: 110 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 l JANUARY 11, 1999 1 A VOICE: So it would be less than that. 2 MR. IMBRO: I would assume so because I l 3 think that they must have come -- you know, probably 4 have completed some already. l 5 A VOICE: Okay. Fine. That's all I 6 wanted to know. Thank you. 7 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: But the total 8 number of deferred items will exceed 500. 9 MR. IMBRO: Yes. I'm just talking 10 ICAVP. I mean there are other -- there's other i i l; 11 calculations of deferred items besides the ones that I 12 -- 13 A VOICE: Okay. 14 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Just to be clear. l 15 A VOICE: Okay. So is there a number on 16 that or -- i 17 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: There is a number. l- l 18 A VOICE: How many deferred items will 19 there be on Unit 2? 20 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: It's in the -- l 0-
< 21 I'll have to give you the number. It's in my --
22 MR. MILLER: Restart of Unit 2 -- l b 23 A VOICE: The backlog -- ; 24 MR. MILLER: Unit 2 was some time yet to O POST REPORTING SERVICE ; HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
111 j MEETING RF: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 5 O aANuARY 11, 1999 1 go. There may bu additional items that emerge. I 2 think -- we'll have to look at that. I don't think you [ 3 can say what it is. 4 A VOICE: (Indiscernible) 5 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Yes. The number, 6 about? 7 MR. DURR: The total Deferred Items 8 List, as I recall, because I talked -- we just did an 9 inspection of that because part of our commitment was i 10 that we would review all of the deferred items for Unit l 11 2 and 3. We did 3. We just did an inspection on 2. () 12 And to my recollection, we're talking, again, several 13 thousand. 14 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Yes. 15 A VOICE: But they are working en Unit 16 3? So I can have somewhat a little confidence that -- 17 MR. MILLER: Yes.
! 18 A VOICE: -- things will --
1 19 MR. SILLER: Yes. I think Mr. Lanning ;3 h r i" 20 addressed that before. O 21 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Yes. H l 22 A VOICE: Okay. Thank you. b 23 MR. IMBRO: Okay. 24 MR. MILLER: We will look at that. And O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
112 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 JANUARY 11, 1999 1 I commented on this before from two points of view. 2 First of all, to make certain that there aren't any 3 items that individually can cause problems that would 4 be unacceptable with respect to operability of 5 equipment in the plant. I mean that's a given. 6 But, secondly, to look at it from a f 7 cumulative point of view; that are they, you know, l 1 8 making a significant effort to reduce the overall 9 burden on the organization? There's a lot more 10 judgment involved in that latter point. But we're 1 l $ 11 still going to look at it. And I -- and hear from them 12 why they feel comfortable proceeding with the restart
]{])
13 of the plant with, you know, quite a few items open. 14 And we won't -- I think that's a big part of our making 15 a judgment when we look at the readiness for restart. 16 It's not just individually but cumulatively does it 17 look reasonable?
! 18 A VOICE: Okay. Thank you.
I 19 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Other questions on i e 20 ICAVP? Ms. Concann.a. O
= 21 MS. CONCAMNON: Hi. Terry Concannon.
l 22 The last speaker brought to mind the fact that there l b 23 was some agreement at the end of -- or just before the 24 restart of Millstone 3 about tagging the Deferred Items O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
p 1 113 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 ( { JANUARY 11, 1999 1 List and the DR's for ready identification purposes so 2 that there was -- they wouldn't be confused with l l 3 subsequent findings after restart and so that you could i 4 follow how they are addressed and how quickly they are 5 addressed. 6 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Yes. But -- I 7 MS. CONCANNON: Would that be the same - 8 - are you planning to do the same thing with Millstone 9 2? 10 MR. IMBRO: I would assume so, yes. I j 11 mean we have all the -- I think yes. I would assume I 12 we're going to (]) do that. I mean I -- Unit 3 was a l 13 little bit different. Unit 3, what we did was we 14 actually -- the licensee committed to complete all the 15 Level 4 DR's by a certain period of time. I think it 16 was maybe in -- within a year of restart. I don't know 17 that we're going to ask the same commitment for Unit 3. k 18 MS. CONCANNON: So it's to be before I 19 refueling, hopefully before refueling. I r 20 MR. IMBRO: Okay. Yes. Okay. Correct. O
< 21 Yes. sou're right. Thank you.
l ] l 22 MR. MILLER: Were you involved in the b 23 meeting this afternoon? Did you watch some of that -- 24 if you were there, you saw me press them on this O v POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
114 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 O JANUARY 11, 1999 1 matter. 2 MS. CONCANNON: Yes. 3 MR. MILLER: Because, you know, they've 4 made commitments regarding items that are deferred. 5 But I think it's terribly important, additionally, that 6 they not lose -- by pigeonholing these things, lose 7 sight of the big picture and overall risk; that they 8 not become so focused on old items that more important 9 emerging items don't get the attention that is needed. 10 And so a whole lot -- there's a small danger in putting j 11 these things into sort of artificial bins, what 12 happened to be there before restart and what came after (} 13 restart. It's terribly important and then we, in 14 overseeing them, look at these things from the point of 15 view that they're a contribution to risk, that they 16 not, you know, lose focus on that. They need to do 17 both. And I'm not -- you know, they made commitments. 18 And until they come in and revise those commitments and f 4 19 give a basis for revising those commitments, they need i r 20 to meet them. O
< 21 So I'm not diminishing the importance of k
j 22 that. But I'm terribly concern that they deal with the b 23 issues that continue to emerge and not just be, you l l I 24 know, looking through the rearview mirror, so to speak. ( POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
115 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 O JANUARY 11, 1999 1 So that's something that we take seriously. And so i 2 these inspections that Mr. Durr talked about are 3 focused on both the old and the new. 4 MS. CONCANNON: I can appreciate that. 5 However, we're just afraid of the fact of the dust 6 going under the bed or the back burner syndrome or 7 whatever you want to call it. And so that was why we 8 felt it was important that closure was achieved at some-9 point. 10 Okay. Thank you. g 11 MR. MILLER: Thank you for your 12 comments. 13 Other questions on ICAVP? 14 Okay. I'd like to take just a 10-minute 15 break here. Indulge me. And. we'll get back at 20 16 'til. 17 (RECESS) k 18 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: -- and inspections I 19 reports that have been recently issued. So if any of Ir 20 you have questions about inspection reports, now is the ) O
- 21 time.
j 22 Rosemary? b 23 MS. BASSILAKIF Actually, this might be i 24 more in line with the Restart Assessment Plan. ! POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l l
116 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 O JANUARY 11, 1999 1 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Okay. 2 MS. BASSILAKIS: But there's an item on 3 here that was closed with regard to the Emergency 4 Preparedness Program. It's on Page 3, Revision 6. 5 It's the November 20 report. Is that the most recent 6 one, the Restart Assessment-Plan? 7 A VOICE: January. January -- 8 MS. BASSILAKIS: Okay. Well, 9 nonetheless, the Emergency Preparedness Program shows 10 that the status is closed. Is -- am I reading this i ll; 11 right? Because it says Closed. (} 12 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: I think that's 13- correct. That's for Unit 3. And -- no? 14 MS. BASSILAKIS: No. I thought this was 15 Unit 2. Let me look again. 16 A VOICE: Emergency Preparedness is 17 closed for 2 only.
! 18 MS. BASSILAKIS: It's closed for 2.
1 19 Because I remember at the last meeting, when we were r 20 talking about the ICAVP, you brought up something about O
< 21 -- and my notes are a little bit bad. But it says I
22 something about there was a weakness between operators l
! 23 and analysis with regard to accidents, that there is a 24 communication problem --
O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
I l l 117 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3
) JANUARY 11, 1999 l
1 MR. IMBRO: Yes.
- 2 MS. BASSILAKIS
- --
and that this was a l 3 pretty significant issue and that they really needed to 4 resolve this. 5 MR. IMBRO: Yes. 6 MS. BASSILAKIS: Should I assume that 7 they resolved this and that's why Emergency 8 Preparedness is -- 9 MR. IMBRO: Well, no. It's really -- 10 it's separate issues. g 11 MS. BASSILAKIS: I see. I"\ 12 MR. IMBRO: That really has nothing to
%/
13 do with emergency preparedness. 14 MS. BASSILAKIS: Emergency preparedness 15 is more for off-site -- I
)
i 16 MR. IMBRO: Yes.
]
17 MS. BASSILAKIS: -- emergency i ! 18 preparedness. 19 MR. IMBRO: Right, h r 20 MS. BASSILAKIS: And this other cne with O l
- 21 regard to worker versus analyst, engineering analyst, l l 22 is on-site emergency preparedness?
l b 23 MR. IMBRO: Well, it's not really 24 emergency preparedness. It's just that when they -- in O POST REPORTING SERVICE l HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i
1 118 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 O JANUARY 11, 1999 1 the process of developing precedures and doing I 2 analysis, in some instances the analysis is done by l 1 3 folks from Berlin and that don't have much contact with I l 4 the site, don't have a lot of interface in operations. f i 5 And so there's analyses assuming certain things happen 6 in a given way. And, in fact, maybe they happen in a 7 different way because there's no back-and-forth 8 communication. 9 MS. BASSILAKIS: And that doesn't have 10 anything to do with emergency prepare '. ness? $ 11 MR. IMBRO: No. It's really just (} 12 analysis of basically plant operations. 13 MS. BASSILAKIS: Because this was with 14 regard to accidents -- 15 MR. IMBRO: Yes. 16 MS. BASSILAKIS: -- was what you 17 specified last meeting, k 18 MR. IMBRO: Yes. I 19
- MS. BASSILAKIS: What does --
1 ' r 20 MR. MILLER: But virtually all of the O
< 21 design-related stuff that we get involved in ultimately l
22 relate to accidents. I mean that's -- I mean what -- l b 23 most of the issues that are what we call design basis 24 issues are relating to design basis events, which are nm POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
119 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 O- JANUARY 11, 1999 1 pretty much by' definition, not exclusively, but very 2 much are aimed are preparing the plant for accidents. 3 So that could apply to virtually all of the things that i 4 Gene and the company for that matter, their design 5 reconstitution effort. It's been aimed at accidents. ; 6 MS. BASSILAKIS: Okay. Let me ask this 7 then. What does that fall under? What category does 8 that fall under? Engineering support or -- 9 MR. IMBRO: What you're just talking 10 about here? l= 11 MS. BASSILAKIS: As far as the weakness () 12 between the operators and then analysis. 13 MR. IMBRO: Configuration management. 14 MS. BASSILAKIS: Configuration 15 management. 16 MR. IMBRO: Yes. Yes. That's a 17 configuration management issue.
! 18 MS. BASSILA- 3: Okay. And has the 1
- 19 final inspection on configuration management been done?
Ir 20 Is that a closed item or not? .O 21 MR. IMBRO: No. We're going to -- l 22 MS. BASSILAKIS: It's not a closed item. l 23 MR. IMBRO: We need to still look at 24 that. O POST REPORTING 9ERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) '62-4102
i 120 (~g MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS ? ' s (,) JANUARY 11, 1999 1 MS. BASSILAKIS: You should get these 2 guys up here. They know the answers right away. 3 CHAIRPERSON LhNNING: Let them answer 4 it. 5 MR. IMBRO: But we need -- we need to 6 still look at that because that's an ICAVP -- it's an 7 issue that came out of our CAVP inspections as well, 8' and maybe some of their inspections. But, you know, we 9 play to look at that. And that's an issue that the 10 company recognizes is a weakness and they're addressing
$ 11 it.
12 MS. BASSILAKIS: Okay. The most recent ()T
~
13 inspection report, January 7 -- gees, you know, a lot 14 of these paragraphs, it's just so confusing to me. j 15 It's the one where you talk about material, equipment 16 and parts list, otherwise known as, what MEPL? 17 MR. IMBRO: MEPL.
! 18 MS. BASSILAKIS: The MEPL program. At
- 19 the beginning, you talked about the program was of high lr 20 quality and that they were very self-critical, blah, C
21 blah, blah. But then you said that you were very l 22 concerned at this point in time in the recovery process l l 23 that their efforts have not been effective in 24 addressing a certain concern. And I guess the concern Q V POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
l l 121 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 g-)s ( JANUARY 11, 1999 1 has to do with inadequate justification for non-i 2 conformance reports for the "use as is". So, ! 3 supposedly, they're saying to just use it as is when 4 they're not supposed to. They're supposed to upgrade i 5 whatever component they're talking about. I mean can 6 someone clarify this paragraph? Because it just gives 7 me a mixed message and -- 8 A VOICE: Go ahead. 9 MS. BASSILAKIS: Let him do it. 10 Come up to the microphone. l 11 MR. BEAULIEU: Yes. What we're 12 referring to that they did a good job on was that their
)
1 13 self-assessment -- we like to encourage licensee to 14 identify and correct its own problems. So when they -- 15 when they do a good self-assessment that's self-16 critical, if we write about it and beat the over the 17 head with it, you know, it has a tendency to discourage 18 them from doing that in the future. So -- f e
- 19 But in this particular one, their own r 20 self-assessment identified something that was a real o
a 21 problem that we'd been telling them about for two years 22 and they had yet to address it. And it's getting near l l 23 the eleventh hour. So we -- even though we gave them a 24 -- said they did a good job at self-identifying this, l POST REPORTING SERVICE (800) 262-4102 HAMDEN, CT
c 122 4 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 s_/ JANUARY 11, 1999 1 however, we have a problem that they still haven't
~2 addressed this problem yet and that time's running out.
1 1 3 MS. BASSILAKIS: And if you could say in l 4 layman terms the problem as far as the non-conformance 5 report and this "use as is", what that means? l 6 MR. BEAULIEU: Yes. If you got a part l ! 7 in the plant, you expect all the parts to be quality 8 parts. 'You can't go to Sears and put a part in a 9 plant. It has to go through and be inspected. It has 10 to be a quality part. It has to be verified. So if a
$. 11 part in the plant that's installed is identified that 12 it doesn't have the correct inspections, well, what do
(} 13 they do with it? They can either replace the part. 14 They can evaluate the part. There's a number of things 15 that they can do. But they have to disposition it in 16 some way. 17 And "use as is" is just what it says. I 18 It says it's okay to keep whatever there installed. So I 19 you really have to provide a solid basis for why you're ie 20 going to keep that part installed. O
- 21 MS. BASSILAKIS: So they could say "use 1
22 as is and these are the calculations to back up why l b 23 it's fine to use as is"? 24 MR. BEAULIEU: Yes. POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i
i i ! 123 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 L() JANUARY 11, 1999 i
- 1. CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Yes.
! 2 MR. MILLER: There's a technical 3 rational. It may or may not be a calculation. But it 4 could be a calculation. 5 And what were we trying to say there, 6 Dave? Were we trying to say that they had not done a 7 good job of justifying -- 8 MR. BEAULIEU: Correct. 9 MR. MILLER: -- providing technical 10 support for use as is?
$ 11 MR. BEAULIEU: Right. We've been I 12
{} raising that issue for a couple of years, I think even ; 13 in cover letters, that they haven't been providing 14 adequate technical justification for saying "use as 15 is", that they were doing little more than say "use as i 16 it" without no -- basically no other justification. I 17 Their own self-assessment at the eleventh hour says the I 18 problem's not solved yet. And we're just raising -- we 1 19
- raised the flag to their senior management, saying lr 20 " Time is running out." It's not something that they C
- 21 can do overnight, is to go back and write all these i
j 22 assessments. 23 MR. MILLER: So what we're saying is 24 that it's not necessarily wrong to use and accept the i POST REPORTING SERVICE I HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
124 (()s, MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 JANUARY 11, 1999 1 material that doesn't have all of the pedigree and the 2 paper that certifies it up front -- 3 MS. BASSILAKIS: But you've got to do 4 the homework first. 5 MR. BEAULIEU: Yes. 6 MR. MILLER: You've got to do your I 7 technical work. Right. 8 MS. BASSILAKIS: Approximately how many 9 of these "use as is" are there? 10 MR. BEAULIEU: I really don't -- l 11 MS. BASSILAKIS: A hundred? A thousand? , 1 (} 12 MR. BEAULIEU: It's less than a hundred. 13 I really don't know exactly the precise number. ! 14 MS. BASSILAKIS: That's fine. 15 Is this -- is this something that can be 16 deferred until after restart? 1 17 MR. BEAULIEU: Absolutely not. l k 18 MS. BASSILAKIS: Cannot be deferred. I 19 MR. BEAULIEU: No. 20 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: It'a on our 0 21 Significant Items List to close out MEPL. k j 22 MS. BASSILAKIS: That's MEPL. 23 MR. BEAULIEU: MEPL, M-E-P-L. 24 MS. BASSILAKIS: Okay. POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l [
125 gs MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 'q_) JANUARY 11, 1999 1 MR. BEAULIEU: MEPL's been inspected 2 more than just about any other SIL item other than the 3 ICAVP effort. And to continue to find problems in this 4 area, it's a real concern. That's why we made the 5 cover letter. 6 MS. BASSILAKIS: Okay. Thank you. 7 MR. BEAULIEU: Okay. 8 There's one more thing. The station 9 emergency response organization, is that an NRC-10 mandated organization or is that something that the , 11 licensee taken on themselves? 12 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Well, it's part of
)
13 the emergency plan to have emergency response 14 organization. 15 MS. BASSILAKIS: Okay. Because I ! 16 received information that said that a lot of workers at 17 the plant were going to lose their qualification for ! 18 SERO organization, station emergency response
- 19 organization, as of December 31, 19--
$ 20 MR. DURR: We heard the same thing. O
- 21 MS. BASSILAKIS: What's that?
I 22 MR. DURR: We heard the same thing. l b 23 MS. BASSILAKIS: And did they all get 24 requalified? f' ()/ POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
p 126 s MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3
\ JANUARY 11, 1999 l
l 1 MR. DURR: The last time I heard, it 2 was, what, seven? Seven were still not qualified, but i i 3 the rest of them got qualified. 4 MS. BASSILAKIS: So how could you close 5 out the emergency response program then in the ! i l 6 Significant Items List if you had all these workers who l l ! 7 were about to lose their qualification? 8 MR. DURR: What do you mean how we can 9 close out -- 10 MS. BASSILAKIS: Well, in the 11 Significant Items List -- it's what I sort of opened up (~ 12 with. V) 13 MR. DURR: They just had to take 14 mandatory training. So then went back and took the 15 mandatory training. They have to have enough people to 16 respond to -- 17 MS. BASSILAKIS: But you closed out this
! 18 issue before they did the mandatory training.
- 19 MR. DURR: It was a different issue, h
r 20 It's not that same specific issue. O
- 21 A VOICE: Well, I mean --
1 22 MS. BASSILAKIS: Emergency preparedness l b 23 program. Tell me -- somebody, one person, tell me 24 where does the station emergency response organization A U POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 1 w
I i 127
<- MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3
(_)g JANUARY 11, 1999 1 1 fall under? Does it fall under a category? l l 2 MR. CERNF: It falle under emergency l 3 preparedness. When that item was closed, this was not 4 an issue at that time, that I was aware of. 5 MS. BASSILAKIS: Okay. Well -- . l 6 MR. MILLER: Are you saying that there's 7 an issue that has arisen since that time and that 8 that's been addressed separately? l l 9 MR. DURR: What I think we're saying is 10 that when we -- when we opened the emergency '
@ 11 preparedness issues, which was a year or more ago,
() 12 those specific issues were closed. And we closed the 13 EP issue. Subsequently, we learned that there 100-and-14 some people, I think it was -- 15 MS. BASSILAKIS: A lot. Yes. 16 MR. DURR: 170 or something like that, 17 people that their qualification was about to expire.
! 18 And then we found out that they, in fact, went back and I
- 19 took action and got these people qualified.
Ir 20 MS. BASSILAKIS: So there's about seven O
- 21 remaining of those.
22 MR. DURR: There's about seven now that l 23 they're -- but that -- what's important out of that is l l 24 that they have enough people qualified to respond to an m POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
I l 128 r~ MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 i i,. JANUARY 11, 1999 l l 1 emergency. 170, I doubt that they would use all 170 at 2 one time. They have local people trained from local 3 positions. It's just that -- 4 MS. BASSILAKIS: Well, there's a certain 5 commitment. I mean they have to have a certain number 6 of individuals trained. I mean I'm sure it's all in 7 black and white. So -- 8 MR. DURR: That's correct. 9 MS. BASSILAKISt So what I'm 10 understanding then, which is actually good for me to
@ 11 know, is that even though a program might be closed 12 out, it doesn't mean that you looked at all aspects of
{]) 13 that program. So with regards to the emergency 14 response program, you were paying particular attention 15 to their program because that's what they really 16 screwed up on about a year, year and a half ago. No. 17 The program was fine -- no. Their program stunk, but 5 18 their behavior was fine because they practiced what I 19 they were supposed to do. 20 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: The drills. The O
< 21 drills were acceptable.
l 22 MS. BASSILAKIS: But you can't practice l b 23 a program. I 24' CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Okay. POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
~
F l 129 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 JANUARY 11, 1999 1 MS. BASSILAKIS: Right. So that's what 2 you guys were looking at with the emergency 3 preparedness. 4 MR. DURR: What you really need to i 5 understand, though -- and it sounded like you didn't -- l 6 is the NRC doesn't inspect 100 percent of things. We 1 7 audit. We don't have enough people to do everything. I 8 So what we have to do to cover all the ground that's 9 out there is we do audits, which means we look at some 10 stuff and, from that, g'ain some reasonable confidence
@ 11 that it's either working or it's not.
12 MS. BASSILAKIS: Well, that's all for ({} 13 now until I think of something else. ) 14 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Okay. Good 15 questions. 16 Are there other questions on the 17 inspection reports? -
! 18 A VOICE: No. It's --
- 19 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Okay.
Ir 20 A VOICE: -- some other questions. O
- 21 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: All right. Let's 22 just move into our general question-and-answer session l
b 23 where you may ask questions on any topic relating to 24 Millstone. O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
l l l 130 I - MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 JANUARY 11, 1999 1 MR. WILLIAM SMITH: Thank you. My name 2 is Bill Smith. I'm the Executive Director of a group 3 called Fish Unlimited, which is based in New York. And t 4 I'm here because a lot of people in Eastern Long 5 Island, I think as you realize, are very concerned 6 about not only the operation of Millstone 3 but also 7 Millstone 2, not the least amongst us our Congressman 8 Mike Forbes. 9 I have a couple of questions for you-10 that seem somehow not as important as they did when I y 11 walked in here, after listening to this thing tonight. (} 12 But, nevertheless, I'd like to know if there's going to 13 be an evacuation plan in place for Eastern Long Island 14 before Millstone 2 is rammed down our throats. 15 A VOICE: No, sir. 16 MR. SMITH: I would also like to -- if 17 that's the case, I would like to invite you to all come
! 18 to Eastern Long Island before the end of the month and l- 19
- to listen to the concerns of the people who live there.
Ir 20 Would that be possible? O
- 21 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: It could be. We 1
22 did that about a year mc'. l
'b 23 A VOICE: May.
24 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: In May, we did O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
f 131 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 I JANUARY 11, 1999 1 that, at the request of Congressman Forbes. ! l l 2 MR. SMITH: Things have changed )
'3 significantly since May, as you know. And there are a l 4 lot -- a lot more has come out. There's been five 5 shutdowns at Millstone 3. People are, quite frankly, l 6 scared. They feel that they're being held hostage by )
I 7 these machines and rightly so, I think. 8 And I think it would possibly -- after 9 sitting here tonight, I have serious doubts. But 10 possibly it would be an eye-opener for you people to !@ 11 come and listen to the concerns of Eastern Long Island. 12 And I would you invite you to come, again, before the 13 end of the month. Come to Sheller Island. We can use 14 the Sheller Island School auditorium. It's a central 15 location and people from both the north and south forks 16 could come and express their concerns to you. 17 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: It would really
! 18 help us to be more responsive to your request if you
- 19 could send it to us in writing.
Ie 20 MR. SMITH: I could do that, if you G a 21 could give the address. 22 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: I'd appreciate l b 23 that. That way we'd get the right people and there 24 would be an agency response to you. O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 t I l t
r 132 l MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3
) JANUARY 11, 1999 i MR. SMITH: Okay. The other concern I 2 have is the effects of these so-called machines on the 3 aquatic environment. And I think, as you know, I 4 requested in May some environmental reports about 5 radioactive contamination in the sediments and the 6 aquatic plant life and shellfish of Long Island Sound, 7 which I was told would be sent and were never sent.
8 And we've also since then requested them from Northeast 9 Utilities, who has denied us the reports, and also from 10 DEP, Connecticut DEP, who has also denied us the l 11 reports. {} 12 A VOICE: What are these reports again? 13 MR. SMITH: These are reports that have 14 to do with radiological contamination in Long Island 15 Sound, specifically in the sediments, in the plant 16 life, in the shellfish and in the finfish surrounding 17 the discharge corridor there at Millstone 3.
! 18 And perhaps tonight you could shed some ! 19 light on where we could get those and how they would be !r 20 forthcoming?
O
< 21 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: I think those are l
22 publicly available documents. These are radiological l b 23 evaluations and assessments, monitoring done by l l 24 Northeast Utilities and submitted to the NRC POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
l i 133 fm MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 V JANUARY 11, 1999 { i 1 periodically. 2 MR. DEAN: Yes. 3 MR. SMITH: Well, that's what we're 4 told. But we're also told that we can't have -- and 5 isn't it true, Nancy? 6 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: We11 -- 7 MR. DURR:: Isn't it within a Freedom of l 8 Information request? I 9 A VOICE: No. But this should be { i 10 publicly available. y 11 A VOICE: Shouldn't even need to do 12 that. 13 MR. SMITH: Yes. I mean why should we 14 need to do that? i 15 A VOICE: The reason why I ask you about 16 what reports they are is that -- 17 MR. DURR: -- it forces us to respond.
! 18 MR. SMITH: No. But I don't --
1 19 MR. DURR: I mean we have to respond to 20 them. O
- 21 A VOICE: Yes. Let us look at that and 1
22 get back to you. l b 23 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Would you give me 24 your number, phone number? POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
134 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 O JANUARY 11, 1999 1 MR. SMITH: I will. If you'll give me 2 yours. And then I'll -- I think instead of writing to 1 3 you, I'll just have our Congressman's office call you 4 and invite you to come. 5 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: That would be l l 6 fine. 7 MR. SMITH: Okay. 8 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: That would be 9 fine. 10 MR. SMITH: What's your number?
@ 11 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: (610) 337-5126.
12 Okay. (} MR. SMITH: I'd finally like to 13 ask you guys -- 14 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: That's Lanning. 15 MR. SMITH: -- how you can go home and 16 look at your families. It is absolutely beyond me that 17 you can sit here and pull this charade over these I 18 people and go home and look at your families in the 19 eye. 20 Thanks. O
- 21 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Yes? Mary?
i ! 22 Welcome, l b 23 MS. MARY KUHN: I'm Mary Kuhn, 24 Waterford, Connecticut. I just wanted to thank you for O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 L
I 135 : MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 g-~) (, JANUARY 11, 1999 i 1 being here. I'm sure that you did not look forward to ! 2 this meeting. And I'm sure you're very tired, as I am 3 also. I'm going to be brief. 4 I just wanted to say that I feel sorrier 5 for the citizens of Connecticut, the citizens of Long 6 Island and the employees of Northeast Utilities. I 7 have a special -- I'm always so moved when I hear one 8 of the employees, ex-employees, speak and hear about 9 the pain and the scars that they carry. It's always 10 very moving to me. j 11 I think I also have to credit the people 12 who are still at NU and trying to work (]) and all the 13 employees in general because I'm sure that many of them 14 are hard-working, very earnest people. And when they 15 come here, they may feel that these citizens are a 16 thorn in their side. But, really, their problem is the 17 NRC because if the NRC had been doing their job, the I 18 citizens wouldn't be here tonight and we wouldn't have I 19 to continue to be watchdogs. I l r 20 I think that Mr. Markowicz's suggestion l 0 l
< 21 was excellent. I have grave apprehensions about the 1 22 coming months because it seems to me that now we have l - 23 this IG report, we have -- they have -- the supervisors 24 now have to apply for their jobs. There's going to be i A
(_) f POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 , 1 l
136 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 pd
' JANUARY 11, 1999
]
l 1 cutbacks. And it's a -- it's just a great time for 2 them te -- for the company to eliminate the cynics and 3 to do it in a way that's very difficult to identify as f I 4 discrimination. So that -- the other thing, of course, 5 is the deregulation. And so that's going to lead to a 6 lot of cost cutting. j 7 I think it's a very perilous time for l 8 the company and I think for all the workers and for all 9 the citizens of Connecticut. l 10 Outside of the suggestion that Mr. l l 11 Markowicz, I don't -- I really can't say an'sthing more (] 12 because I can't imagine anything that you could say 13 that we haven't heard before. 14 Thank you. ) l 15 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Thanks, Mary. 16 Ms. Burton? 17 MS. NANCY BURTON: Another night, I 18 another kind of microphone. Good evening. I'm Nancy I; 19 Burton. And it's interesting to be back here at this
!r 20 time. I have a few questions, I want to follow up on a o
a 21 few answers and I want to present you with a couple of I 22 things. l
! 23 First, I'd like to show you, display for 24 you this poster. And while I'm doing that, I want a D
Ve POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
t l l 137 f- MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 Q). JANUARY 11, 1999 1 clarification please. I don't see a video person here l- . 2 for the NRC. ! 1 I i 3 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: We normally don't j l 4 have a video person here. J 5 MS. BURTON: Or an audio person? l 6 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: We normally have a l-7 Court Reporter. And for some reason that I cannot ! 8- explain, she's not here. 9 MS. DURTON: Does that mean that our ' ! 10 comments are not being transcribed for the NRC? l l i-@; 11 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: No. I have 12 requested a copy of the NU tape and we'll use that tape (]) 13 to review the meeting discussions or allegations and so 14 forth that we normally do. i 15 MS. BURTON: So you will be hearing what 16 we say through the offices of Northeast Utilities. Is 17 that right then? l I 18 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Well, I have
- 19 notes. Everybody else has notes.
lr 20 A VOICE: I've taken copious notes here. l I O
= 21 I'd be happy to have any tape that the CRC or others 1
j 22 submit. b 23 MS. BURTON: But -- so -- 24 A VOICE: In all seriousness, you can't POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
f. 138
- g. MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 y JANUARY 11, 1999 ;
I i 1 sit there and explain that -- there are five, six, 2 seven individuals. No one brought a tape recorder? 3 You're all that naive? You totally forget things? I 4 mean, my God, if I went to work without a pencil, what 5 would I do? I'd ask, " Hey, Joe. Do you have a 6 pencil?" And he would let me borrow it. 7 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: I think you missed 8 my answer in the beginning and I just said it. We 9 normally have a Court Reporter to transcribe this 10 meeting. And we've had one at every public meeting as l 11 far as -- as long as I've lbeen conducting these Q 12 meetings. For some reason, the Court Reporter did not 13 show up tonight. I do not know why yet. So we're-14 improvising. We'11 have a recorded record of the 15 meeting. Okay. 16 MS. BURTON: But will there be a 17 transcript, an official transcript? 18 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: There will not be 19 an official transcript because we don't have an i r 20 official note-taker.
.O
- 21 MS. BURTON: Will there be a transcript?
I j 22 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: I don't know b 23' 'whether I'm going to transcribe the videotape or not. 24 I don't know yet. O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
I l 139 l f MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 l l (3) JANUARY 11, 1999 1 MS. BURTON: If there is no transcript, l 2 then how will Dr. Jackson and the other Commissioners 3 know what we here tonight are saying? i 4 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Well, some of the 5 specific comments, we'11 make sure that we pass those 6 along, as we normally do. 7 MS. BURTON: You said "some". You 8 didn't say "all". 9 A VOICE: How will you choose those? 10 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: I'm sorry? l 11 A VOICE: How will you determine which 12 comments are passed on and which aren't? 13 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Well, safety-l 14 significance allegations, employee concerns, issues 15 impacting the decision before the Commission type 16 issues, Safety-Conscious Work Environment. 17 MR. MILLER: I think it's a practical
! 18 matter, also. I mean these meetings go on for some ]
l-19 *4me. And so the Commission doesn't read the whole l Ir 20 transcript every -- every transcript. So basically O
< 21 the- ' re required -- they get the input that we give ! l j 22 them, that you give them and other cases. I
- b 23 But, fortunately, we have a number of
{ 24 tape r chines mnning here tonight. So we haven't lost O POST REPORTING SERVICE 1 HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 1
I' f , 140 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 O- JANUARY 11, 1999 l 1 -- I wouldn't have proceeded -- I wouldn'c have wanted l l 2 us to proceed tonight if we didn't have something here. 3 And as Wayne said, we'll find out what happened with l i 4 the Court Reporter. But the fortunate thing here is 5 that we have a record. And that will be -- that will 1 6 be there for people who want to know about all of what ! 7 was said here. If they choose to do that, they'll have 8 the ability to do that. 9 MS. BURTON: Mr. Miller, may I just 10 comment? I just find your attitude incredibly arrogant
@ 11 because I think that what you're saying is that the NRC 12 isn't going to hear back what you are telling us and,
(]) 13 therefore, what you're saying here tonight, there won't 14 be accountability for it. And I remember there was one 15 question here, a consciencious member of the public 16 came and addressed you and she had a question. And she 17 was hit with three different answers that were
! 18 contradictory. And that's troubling. 'nd that's 1
- 19 something that I think the NRC ought to be aware of.
Ir 20 And because you didn't have the foresight to have a o a 21 transcriber here, they won't know that. And this just j 22 leads ut into the same issue of the credibility of your b 23 agency and why today it's zero. 24 Let me just point out this poster. This O V t POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
o i MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 JANUARY 11, 1999 1 poster represents that the community of Mystic'is 2 opposed to Millstone, never voted for it, doesn't want 3 it, doesn't like to live with it, is afraid of it, is 4 sick of it and wants you to pack up and go home. That 5 is the community of Mystic. That goes for the entire 6 community of Southeastern Connecticut. This community 7 has had it with you people. 1 ( 8 I have some specific questions about 9 Millstone 2. I haven't heard anything about the spent 10 fuel pool. Would somebody please tell me the present j 11 status of storage of spent fuel in that pool in terms 12 of capacity? i 13 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: It's not filled to 14 capacity. They have just reloaded the core from the 15 spent fuel pool back into the vessel at Unit 2. I 15 cannot tell you the exact number of fuel assemblies l l 17 there or number that could be put there. But it's a l k' 18 large number. l i - 19 MR. MILLER: Dave, do you know? h r '20 MR. BEAULIEU: They've only got one more lO
= 21 fueling outage. They have to have the capability for l
l 22 full core offload after RFO 14 -- what's today? l b 23 which is the next refueling outage, there won't be 24 enough. So they have to come up with a solution, O-POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
F-I 4 142 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3
\ JANUARY 11, 1999 l
l 1 .either dry cast or putting that over and reloading and l 2 they have come up with a solution before that. I 3 MS. BURTON: Can you please tell us what 4 the time frame is when that is expected that it will 5 reach that point? 6 MR. BEAULIEU: This is a rough guess. 7 2002. 8 MS. BURTON: And what -- is there 1 9 something that could happen that could move it up 10 sooner? '@ 11 MR. BEAULIEU: No. It would be after i \ 12 []} the 14th refueling outage. The 13th is scheduled for l 13 the year 2000. The 14th will be roughly 2002. 14 MS. BURTON: And when the plant pool was 15 initially designed, it was designed for how many 16 outages? 17 MR. BEAULIEU: They originally -- they l 18 never anticipated that there would be -- that there 1 19 would be this storage problem.
- So it really wasn't ir 20 designed for 40 years, for example, the life of the O
< 21 plant. And that's true for just about all plants.
l 22 They're all in similar situations. l l b 23 MS. BURTON: But it's gone through 24 successive amendments, has it not, to enable more fuel (:) POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
n-l'I, 143 em MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 j U JANUARY 11, 1999 1 to be stored, used fuel to be stored, than initially 2 planned? l 3 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Re-racking -- 4 A VOICE: They're probably high-density l 5 racks. 6 MR. BEAULIEU: Re-racking., which means 7 that as you're putting the fuel bundles closer 8 together, that's when they would have to get NRC 9 approval to put the fuel bundles closer, which allows 10 more fuel to be stored. l 11 MS. BURTON: Okay. Can you please tell () 12 me how many workers are being cut from Millstone 2 and 13 Millstone 3 as a result of these recent layoffs? And, 14 also, the projections for deregulation? 15 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: I don't think 16 there's been any number na* by T RI, at least that I'm 17 aware of, for any reductions. I 1 18 MR. BEAULIEU: Non-plant -- they don't I 19 plan on -- are you talking about the reduction in'the ir 20 number of supervisors? i O <
- 21 MS. BURTON: There are staff reductions, k
j 22 I undarstand, that are going on. b 23 MR. DEAN: They're manager 24 reorganization, not staff reduction. They're reducing l O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
144 MEETING'RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 O JANUARY 11, 1999 1 the number of management positions. But those people 2 who' do not have management positions. will still be 3 employed by Millstone. 4 MS. BURTON: So -- 5 A VOICE: Just supervisory positions. 6 MS. BURTON: So there are no planned 7 reductions in the work force at Millstone? 8 MR. MILLER: Not in the immediate 9 future. l 10 MR. BEAULIEU: In the immediate -- not l; 11 in mind that they have. 12 MS. BURTON: Mr. Miller, what do you (]} 13 mean by the immediate future? 14 MR. MILLER: Well, I mean so far as I 15 know, there's nothing going on in the next something 16 months. But I think -- this is something we can't 17 speak to ultimately. The company would have to answer
'! 18 this question. And we just can't give you a firm i
- 19 answer here. We don't requirements on minimum number ir 20 of people on staff except for specific positions. And o
a 21 we watch that closely. But, beyond that, it's their l ! l j_ 22 decision.
- b. 23 MS. BURTON: Now, Mr. Lanning, in answer 24 to the question from Mr. Smith as to whether or not O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
m 145 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 JANUARY 11, 1999 ) i 1 there will be an evacuation plan for Eastern Long 2 Island prior to plans for restart of Millstone 2, can 3 you explain why your answer was no? i 4 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: It's my 5 understanding that Long Island is not part of the EPC 6 and, therefore, there is no-emergency evaluation plan l 7 required. 8 MS. BURTON: Now, that was a mistake 9 when the plants were first licensed, wasn't it? 10 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: That was not a l 11 mistake. It was a conscious decision. It was part of () 12 our regulations. 13 MS. BURTON: Why was it a conscious 14 decision to keep out of the evacuation zone the dense 15 population within 12 to 15 miles? ) l 16 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Well, it wasn't ; i 17 that kind of conscious decision. The decision was
! 18 based on our existing regulation involving the
- 19 distances from a nuclear power plant for which there I
r 20 has to be emergency planning. O 21 MS. BURTON: That's a discretionary l 22 number, though. Isn't it? And it was then? l 23 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Well, it's 24 normally 10 miles and it could be less, it could be O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 I l.
146 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 ( JANUARY 11, 1999 1 more. 2 MR. MILLER: But the Commission made 3 that decision. i ! 4 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Yes. 1 5 MR. MILLER: If that's your question. . l i l 6 Yes. The Commission made that decision. Wayne, the 7 various factors, the potential for releases from the 8 plant, the potential for dispersion of radioactivity
]
9 from an accident and also judgments about what area ! 10 around a plant would prudently -- should prudently be i l 11 incorporated into or brought into a formal plan, that 12 was a Commission decision made years ago. It has been (]} 13 -- the Commission has been petitioned a number of times 14 about that 10-mile rule. And, in fact, I think they l 15 were petitioned in connection with the restart of Unit !
-16 3 and the Commission made the decision to keep to that 17 -- to that limit.
1 I 18 That's a Commission decision. And I': 19 you're looking at the staff. We're implementing it. 20 But it is the Commission ultimately that has to decide O
- 21 chat. For us, it's a rule. It's a requirement.
22 That's what we license to. l 23 MS. BURTON: It seems that you're bound 24 to make yourselves very unpopular in that community. () POST REPORTING SERVICE l HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l l r
147 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 O JANUARY 11, 1999 1 A VOICE: There's nothing that prevents 2 the community and the State and the local officials 3 from developing an evacuation plan. Okay? It's just 4 not required by NRC regulations beyond the 10-mile EPZ. 5 MR. MILLER: The point is that we have 6 to have a standard that, you know, applies in 'our . I 7 licensing the facility. And Bill is right. The State l 8 and the local officials can go beyond that. It's just 9 that we have to set a minimum. 10 A VOICE: Have you ever been to Long
$ 11 Island?
(} 12 MR. BEAULIEU: Not to Eastern Long 13 Island. 14 A VOICE: Can you -- 15 MR. MILLER: But this is an issue that 16 comes up about many sites. 17 A VOICE: Can you imagine a way off k 18 there in the event of an accident? I: 19 MR. DURR: A way off? h r 20 A VOICE: In an automobile. Other than C a 21 an airline or -- l l g 22 MR. DURR: The Long Island Expressway. 23 A VOICE: What? 24 MR. DURR: The Long Island Expressway. O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN,'CT (800) 262-4102 L
f i 148 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 g-)s (, JANUARY 11, 1999 1 A VOICE: Have you ever been on the Long 2 Island Expressway? l l I 3 MR. DURR: Yes, actually, I have. { 4 MS. BURTON: On a summer weekend? 5 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Well, we're 6 getting -- we're getting -- that's not -- in < 7 speculation right here. 8 A VOICE: Jacque, that's not -- 9 A VOICE: Well, it's showing your 10 ignorance is what you're doing. 11 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Do you have other l; () 12 questions? 13 MS. BURTON: I do. There was a question 14 about the five shutdowns in the past six months at 15 Millstone 3 and whether or not they are -- any of those 16 incidents are derived from problems that were 17 discoverable prior to the restart. And various answers
! 18 were given. I was very confused by those. And I i: 19 wonder, Mr. Miller, if you could please clarify?
Ir 20 MR. CERNE: Would you like me to do O
= 21 that?
I 22 MR. MILLER: Yes. Tony's close to the l b 23 details. 24 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Go ahead, Tony. p POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
r l l 149 ! MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 () JANUARY 11, 1999 1 MR. CERNE: I'm the Senior Resident for 2 Unit 3. l 3 MS. BURTON: I'm sorry. What was your i j 4 name please? 5 MR. CERNE: Tony Cerne. MS. BURTON: 6 Yes. Thank you. 7 MR. CERNE: There were -- when basically 8 we answered that the things that were on the Deferred 9 Items List were not the direct cause of any of the 10 shutdowns -- and that's a true statement. There are l; 11 some related equipment, like, for example, the MSIV's, () 12 which are the main steam isolation valves for the plant 13 -- the specific valves in question were modified during 14 this current outage with a modification that was 15 planned previously. But -- and that happened to fix 16 the problem that was identified and that caused the 17 plant to shut down. l- 18 However, the specific problem that was 1 19 going to be fixed by the design wasn't the same problem
't l 20 that shut the plant down.
O :
- 21 MS. BURTON: So, in other words, the i k
22 modification that was planned was not done. It was a l b 23 deferred item? 24 MR. CERNE: The modification was a O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 L i
F? 150 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 O JANUARY 11, 1999 l l 1 deferred item. But it wasn't done to the specific 2 .cause that shut the plant down. It happened to fix the l 3 same set of problems.
'4 MS. BURTON: But if it hadn't been l -5 deferred, if it had had to be achieved before restart,
- 6 would it have obviated that problem?
7 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Well, Tony, let me 8 just make sure I understand the question. 9 MS. BURTON: I think he did. 10 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Yes, but -- ,y 11 MS. BURTON: I think he understood the l ; (} 12 question. Could you give him a chance to answer it? 13 MR. CERNE: It would have obviated the 14 problem in that the fix fixed the issue. But it wasn't 15 a deferred item. In other words, the deferred item was 16 for a problem in the valves that was different than 17 caused the shutdown.
! 18 MR. MILLER: But, as I said before, I i
19 mean since -- since that event occurred, I had people 20 explain to me what the history on this was. And there
'O
- 21 was a history with MSIV issues. And that's why I l '
22 brought that out earlier. There was -- there had been l l b 23 previous scrams, I think, at the plant. Isn't that 24 right, Tony? From the MSIV's going closed to -- wasn't , (:) POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l l
151 f s. MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 (_) JANUARY 11, 1999 1 there a previous scram a number of years ago? 2 So, you know, plants can have problems 3 and they can have -- they'll make a best attempt at a 4 fix. And if it's a reasonable fix, it's prudent to 5 operate. If there are repeat problems, as there was in 6 this case, then -- then all bets are off and the ! l l 7 licensee has to look deeper, which is what they did in j 8 putting in place, as I understand it, modifications as 9 opposed to just going in and fixing the specific valve. 10 That was the point that I made earlier. I hope that
$ 11 was -- I hope I made that -- maybe I wasn't as clear as 12 I needed to be. But that's the point I was making.
( }) 13 MS. BURTON: So, in other words, there 14 had been repeat problems historically with the same 15 issue. 16 A VOICE: No. 17 MR. MILLER: Not --
! 18 MS. BURTON: No?
I-19 MR. MILLER: Same valve, different ir 20 issves. O
= 21 A VOICE: That's the point.
i b i j 22 MR. MILLER: These are complicated -- ( b 23 these are complicated valves. There are many, many 24 different facets to them. And I think what Tony's ('N
%.)
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
r-152 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 O- JANUARY 11, 1999 l 1 caying is that there were -- there was a different 2 issue in the Deferred Items List. Is that right? l 3 MR. CERNE: It was definitely a 4 different issue. And it happens to be the same valve. 5 And the repair and modification that was done 6 fortuitously also fixes the problem that was the cause. 7 And the problem.that shut down the plant this time on l 8 the -- basically, it was a part scope testing. The 9 valve actually went to the position it was supposed to, 10 in the safe position. But when you test at power and 1 l 11 the valve goes closed, the unfortunate result is a (} 12 reactor trip, which is a transient on the plant. 13 From the standpoint of the safety-14 related feature of those valves, they did exactly what , l I 15 they were supposed to do when tested to those l 16 conditions. 17- Now, the exact problem turned out to be l l 18 entirely unique. It was a whole different issue that 19 happened to be also repaired by the same modification. 20 MS. BURTON: I think you've made it very o a 21 clear. Thank you, j t 22 Mr. Miller, on the question of fatigue b 23 cycles, could you tell me how many are allotted for the 24 three Millstone plants? O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i
I 153 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 () l JANUARY 11, 1999 1 MR. MILLER: I don't know. 2 MS. BURTON: Where can I find that 3 information? 4 MR. IMBRO: It's probably in the FSAR. 5 A VOICE: Yes. It would be in the FSAR. 6 MS. BURTON: Who here would like to take 7 on the task of finding out for me? 8 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: I'll do it. 9 MS. BURTON: Thank you. 10 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: And it applies to l; 11 not -- it applies to certain major components. Right, () 12 Jim? To the reactor -- 13 A VOICE: I'll give you a reference to 14 the FSAR's. 15 A VOICE: Steam generators. 16 MS. BURTON: But roughly? 17 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: I don't know. But
! 18 I'll get you a reference.
- 19 MS. BURTON: So you'll give numbers for i
e 20 each e three plants? O , I a 21 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Well, for 1 it's j 22 academic. ut I'll give you a reference for Units 2 and b 23 3. 24 MS. BURTON: Thank you. POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 k
154 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 JANUARY 11, 1999 1 And I just wanted to be sure, because it 2 didn't come out, that you all go back to Pennsylvania 3 and Washington, wherever you're going, and circulate 4 the Editorials that have appeared here recently in the i 5- local press in Connecticut concerning the IG report. 6 One which appeared in the Hartford Courant, quote, t 7 " Scandalous Inaction by the NRC", end quote, January 8 10, 1999. And the second in the New London Day, also ) 9 over the weekend, I think, quote, "Sure Looks Like a 10 Whitewash." Some fingers are pointed in your i y 11 direction. Please take this and circulate it.
- J
(} 12 MR. MILLER: Thank you. We've received 13 those. 14 A VOICE: We get those. 15 MR. MILLER: We've read them and -- 16 MS. BURTON: Thank you. 17 MR. MILLER: This is what I was
! 18 commenting on earlier. If it was all exactly like it I
- 19 said here, I'd be just as upset as you are. We need to ir 20 look and see -- and that's where the staff has to speak o
a 21 in response to that. I j 22 MS. BURTON: If you don't mind, Mr. I 23 Miller, how long have you been in your position at 24 Region 17 O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
I I 1 1 1 155 ! MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3
- f-)s
(_ JANUARY 11, 1999 1 MR. MILLER: I've been in Region 1 for l 2 two and a half years. I've been involved in Millstone i 3 for the past three months or so. 4 MS. BURTON: And while you were at 5 Region 1, didn't you have certain oversight I 6 responsibility over the Millstone station prior to I 7 restart? 8 MR. MILLER: No. 9 MS. BURTON: No? 10 MR. MILLER: No. l 11 MS. BURTON: Then what do you do? fD w/ 12 MR. MILLER: What do I do? There are 17 13 other sites in this region and I've been watching those 14 plants. 15 MS. BURTON: But not this one? 16 MR. MILLER: Not this one, no. 17 A VOICE: Special Projects Office --
! 18 MS. BURTON: Not this one at all?
I
! 19 MR. MILLER: No. !r 20 1
MS. BURTON: So there was no oversight, ' O
= 21 even though Mr. Lanning, if I'm not mistaken --
l 22 MR. MILLER: Mr. Lanning was part of the l b 23 Special Projects Office. And some of my staffers were 24 involved in providing support to the Special Projects (~)) POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
I l i
- 156 es MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3
( JANUARY 11, 1999 l 1 Office on the enforcement side. And I don't say -- I 2 say that, you know, we're all going to learn from 3 whatever comes out of this. I don't want to say that 4 to put distance from me and the rest of the agency en 5 these things. We all need to learn from it, whatever 6 that is. We'll see what comes out of this. We have to 7 look at it and let the folks who were involved, you 8 know, provide all of the -- you know, address the IG's 9 concerns. 10 MS. BURTON: But I just want to then be l; 11 sure I understand this, Mr. Miller. Millstone is in {} 12 your region, but you had no oversight responsibility 13 over what Dr. Travers was doing -- 14 MR. MILLER: That's right. 15 MS. BURTON: -- in the Special Projects 16 office? 17 A VOICE: That's correct.
! 18 MR. MILLER: That's right. There have 1
19 been a number of situations where there are South Tech j b r 20 -- or Comanche Peak is one. TVA is another situation O
< 21 'where the nature of the issues are significant enough I
22 that a decision will be made to essentially supplement l b 23 regional effort by setting up a Special Office that l 24 reports directly to the senior people in Washington. l POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 1
157 g MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 JANUARY 11, 1999 1 And that's what was done in this case with Millstone. 2 It was the agency's response to assure that there was 3 adequate attention given here, as well as to framing up 4 to go and make sure that there aren't other situations . 5 developing in the region, which is where I've been for l 6 the past several years. 7 MS. BURTON: Well, do you suppose, Mr. G Miller, if you'd had the opportunity to review and 9 supervise what was going on here with Dr. Travers and 10 his group, that maybe those Editorials wouldn't be l 11 appearing this week in this community? 12 MR. MILLER: I'm going to [] wait to see. ; 13 We all need to hear what the staff says in response to 14 the IG report. I mean that's what -- that's what has 15 to happen. 16 MS. BURTON: Thank you. 17 MR. MILLER: Thank you. k 18 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Nancy, I'11 need a 1 19 phone number and an address to -- l lr 20 MS. BURTON: Sure. ; O i 21 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: All right. i i 22 A VOICE: A little bit of a list here. l 23 One thing, on Millstone 3 -- and NRC did like an j 24 independent check of systems outside the ICAVP program. I l O) POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
l 158
- fT MEETING RE
- MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3
, U JANUARY 11, 1999 i l' 1 You found some kind of problem in the emergency core 2 cooling system that during a postulated accident the 3 system came on, that due to back pressure or something 4 like that, there was a pathway of environmental coolant 5 out of the reactor vessel. Something about that. 6 There was a problem the NRC discovered themselves that 7 picked up -- 8 MR. CERNE: There were some violations 9 of Tech Spec 6.8.4 .that controls the control of any I 10 radioactive liquid 'outside the containment. And the
@ 11 programs that were supposed to be in place to check for ,
l (}
.12 that weren't as rigorous or robust as they should have 13 been. The licensee was cited in violation for those 14 problems. ;
15 A VOICE: No. I thought it was actually 16 a mechanical problem, that there was a pump in there 17 and that it would not -- if there was sufficient I 18 pressure during an accident, that there had been a i: 19 backflow back through that pump. Now, the flow is ir 20 supposed to come into -- into the vessel. But under o
- 21 accident conditions -- well, it could have reversed.
1 22 MR. CERNE: The recirculation spray l b 23 system had several problems, including some flow issues 24 where the recirculation spray system piggybacks to k) POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
1 l l 159 (3 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 s_) JANUARY 11, 1999 1 other pumps. And that has some connectivity to 2 flowbacks to possibly the refueling water storage tank, 3 which is outside the containment. But what you're 4 specifically talking about isn't exactly the same 5 issue. 6 A VOICE: Well, was that issue i 7 addressed? I thought there was actually a mechanical 8 problem with a possibility of backflow through a pump 9 outside of the reactor vessel. 10 MR. CERNE: You have to have more 11 specific -- it doesn't ring a bell. 12 A VOICE: was something the ({} It NRC -- 13 you know, you have a group in there that did, you know, 14 your big review. They checked, what, four systems? 15 And then you checked a couple of the systems on your 16 own. 17 A VOICE: Yes. ! 18 A VOICE: Outside of that. 19 A VOICE: Yes. Right. Ie 20 A VOICE: And that was one of the issues O
< 21 that came up when the NRC checked themselves.
1 22 MR. CERNE: That was the recirculation l
! 23 spray system.
24 A VOICE: Has that problem -- O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
160 ( (V 'g- MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 JANUARY 11, 1999 1 MR. CERNE: But I don't remember 2 backflow through a pump as being an issue. 3 A VOICE: Has that problem been l l l 4 mechanically corrected? ) 5 MR. CERNE: Well, we don't know what 6 problem you're referring to. 7 A VOICE: Well, I'll have to go back and 8 check the transcripts then another time. Okay. 9 About the evacuation planning, I haven't 10 read the Rasmussen reactor study in quite some time. l l: 11 So I might be a little bit off on this. But memory, I i 1 12 think, serves me pretty well that Rasmussen talked (]} 13 about atmospheric skip and a postulated release during 14 an accident and'it was just as likely that you would 15 have a dose 25 miles away from the reactor as five 16 miles away from the reactor or three miles away from i 17 the reactor, depending on atmospheric conditions at the j
! 18 time of the release. And I think you should say to be I ; 19 forthwith here that the 10-mile limit set by the NRC h
r 20 was solely a political compromise and nothing else, o I
= 21 There's no science. There's no physics or anything l 1
22 else involved It was solely a political compromise to l b 23 an industry that wanted none or three miles and other 24 public interest groups that were calling for 25 miles O: POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
r 161 m
\g MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 JANUARY 11, 1999
{ 1 and out. So let's be clear on that. l l 2 A VOICE:- Bob, before we go on, I think f i 3 Mr. Dean identified the backflow issue. This may have ; 4 involved a backflow to the refueling water storage l l l 5 tank? l 6 MR. CERNE: But that's what it's talking l 7 1 l about. That's the 6.8.4 issue. J 8 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Okay. All right. I 9 MR. CERNE: It has to do with l 10 connectivity of the systems that supply ECCS with the j.; 11 source of water back in the refueling water storage (} 12 tank. All those ICAVP issues have been addressed. 13 A VOICE: Was it physically corrected, 14 though? Not addressed, but physically corrected? 15 Could it happen today? Is the problem still in 16 existence or has the problem been mechanically solved? 17 MR. IMBRO: If it was an ICAVP issue, it
! 18 was corrected. I don't remember it. But I can tell !
19 you that it was -- because we inspected all those 20 issues. 1 O
- 21 MR. CERNE: Testing of the trip valves.
1 22 A VOICE: That's the issue we're talking
-l h 23 about.
24 A VOICE: So is it -- is the problem ( l POST REPORTING SERVICE (800) 262-4102 HAMDEN, CT
l-1 l i 162 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 () JANUARY 11, 1999 1 solved? 2 MR. CERNE: Yes. l 3 A VOICE: Yes, f 4 A VOICE: Mechanically there was a 5 change and -- change of hardware. 6 A VOICE: No. There wasn't a problem 7 with hardware. It was a testing issue. 8 MR. DURR: They weren't testing it and ! 9 we required them to do the test. 10 A VOICE: Okay. Thank you. g 11 On the spent fuel pool, Nancy mentioned () 12 most -- I just hope you're aware that I've heard some 13 people from the Nevada state government speak recently 14 and it looks increasingly likely that Yoca Mountain is 15 never going to open, that the State of Nevada as the 16 government is increasingly becoming opposed to ever 17 that place reopening. And you better start considering I 18 about what you do with the spent fuel if you keep I 19 running these plants because -it looks like Yoca ir 20 Mountain is getting more and more tenuous. ; O 1
- 21 And I believe today that there's some I
'i ,5 22 news out that Barnwell is likely to close, also; that h 23 the new Governor is coming in and he's recommending or 24 at least some of his staff is recommending closing O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
l I 163 , 7g MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 l (_j JANUARY 11, 1999 l 1 Barnwell. So you have another problem to deal with I l 2 there at Millstone. 3 In re-racking, am I correct that when ! l 4 you re-rack, you put these rods in bundles and kind of 5 put them in a container, so to speak? Or how -- what j 6 is the -- physically does it look like when you re-rack 7 in a pool and how close are these rods put together? 8 Are these rods that are grouped together? Are'they put i 9 in some kind of container themselves in the pool or is 10 everything just hanging there, you know, by a single r j 11 element? () 12 A VOICE: They'll put them all right at { l 13 grids, j i 14 A VOICE: Are they grouped somchow? l 15 MR. BEAULIEU: The fuel assembly there, ; 16 they stay the same as they were in the vessel. They're 17 not moved to the spent fuel pool. And they may just be
! 18 stored in storage racks in a line. And as storage rack 1
19 spaces go closer together, they'll -- they are putting ir 20 what they call a poison between them, like boraflex is , O !
< 21 a poison that will absorb neutrons, and they'll do i
5 22 various things to allow the fuel assembly to be put s b 23 closer together. But they dr.t't disassemble the fuel 24 assembly. They stay intact. O V l POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
164-MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 JANUARY 11, 1999 1 A VOICE: No. Are there any air spaces 2 between these fuel assemblies in the pool? 3 MR. DURR: Water. 4 A VOICE: No. They're under water. 5 They're all under water. 6 MR. BEAULIEU: There is a space and it's 7 limited and it's analyzed for. That's correct. 8 A VOICE: Okay. And is there an issue 9 if you put these things too close together that things 10 can go critical? l; 11 A VOICE: Yes. (} 12 A VOICE: Right. 13 A VOICE: Oh. 14 MR. BEAULIEU: That's why there's the 15 approval required. 16 MR. DURR: If you go back to the 17 original days, spent fuel storage looked like a
!a 18 checkerboard with every other element missing, every 19 other square empty. And what they've done is they've 20 filled in those squares, but they're put in material e
- 21 that essentially keeps it separated. 3 0 I l l- 22 A VOICE: Okay. On to Millstone 1, I i
-! 23 had a question. There's an issue before our Public 24 Utility Control regarding if Northeast Utilities should I)
[ POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 t
L l 1 165 g MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 Q JANUARY 11, 1999 1 be able to collect monies for replacement of oil 2 storage tanks that are necessary for backup generation 3 in case there's a station blackout or if they need some 4 kind of backup power at Millstone 1. Does Northeast 5 Utilities' license for Millstone 1 presently require a l 6 source of backup power at Millstone 1? 1 7 A VOICE: Repeat l'he question again? ! 8 A VOICE: The question is there's an l l 9 issue before our Public Utility Control if Northeast' i 10 Utilities through rates should be reimbursed for some j l 11 recent oil storage tanM they've put in place or l Q 12 putting new ones in the o round for Millstone 1. They l 13 are arguing that they need to have those tanks for 14 emergency power for Millstone 1. And I'm asking you 15 do, indeed -- do they have to have -- i 16 MR. DURR: The tach specs currently 17 require that they have emergency power. i
! 18 A VOICE: So they do presently -- ,
i: 19 A VOICE: Yes. I think those are for I 1 ir 20 the site, though. Aren't they? l 0
- 21 MR. DURR: Plus, it's supplying power to l 22 Unit 2. Backup.
23 A VOICE: All right. Thank you. 24 I just -- this is something that's a O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
166 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 O JANUARY 11, 1999 1 little old. And if you'll just tell me, you know, the 2 direction of these numbers, if they're correct or not? 3 This was done by C&D and National Labs back quite a 4 while ago, '82. It's CRAC -- 5 A VOICE: Is this --
'6 A VOICE: -- two report files.
7 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Is this Millstone? 8 A VOICE: Yes. Millstone, yes. And it 9 says " Scale peak early fatality estimate of postulated 10 accident for Millstone 3, 23,000; scale peak cancer 11 for Millstone 2, 33,000; l death estimate reactor scale
} 12 peak death estimate for Millstone 3, 38,000; and scale 13 peak cost in billions for Millstone Unit 2, 135 14 billion. Do these -- and for Millstone 3, 174 billion.
15 Do these numbers sound like they're within the realm of 16 possibility for a severe accident at Millstone? 17 A VOICE: Don't know.
! 18 A VOICE: You don't know. Well, what I l: 19 will do is I will clip some of this off because it has ir 20 some personal information on this and I will make sure O < 21 that the NRC gets a copy of this or you simply can take i
j 22 a look because it's a study -- it was done for you by b 23 C&D and National Labs -- 24 A VOICE: Yes. Well, it's -- O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l l
167 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 i JANUARY 11, 19.i9 l
.1 A. VOICE: It's dated 1982. So it seems
- 2 to' indicate that at least we have the possibility, as l
l 3 Chernobyl showed us, of some rather severe consequences l l 4 of things going wrong at Millstone. l 5 A VOICE: Right. 6 A VOICE: Can we at least reach a common 7 agreement on that? We could have a pretty severe 8 consequence? 9 A VOICE: Uhh-- 10 A VOICE: That we're not talking about g 11 deaths -- 12 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: You've got me at a (]) 13 disadvantage because I don't know exactly what you're 14 talking from. 15 A VOICE: Well, I mean the general 16 answer is that every nuclear power plant poses risks; 17 that if the worst happens, you'll get what you had with
! 18 Chernobyl.
19 A VOICE: Well, so -- 1 r 20 A VOICE: And the question is, well, how O
< 21 likely is it and --
1 22 A VOICE: Okay, l b 23 A VOICE: And what are the margins of 24 safety? And I don't know what that report says, but -- O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l { i
T' 168 g MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 (Q JANUARY 11, 1999 1 A VOICE: No. I don't think it talks -- 2 A VOICE: -- a great deal of where we're , 3 focused right now is looking at risk and trying to I 4 quantify what the risks are -- 5 A VOICE: Okay. Why -- 6 A VOICE: -- in terms of probability so l 7 that -- so that neople have some sense of how likely 8 those kinds of numbers are. 9 A VOICE: Now, it's my general 10 understanding of environmental science that we assume l 11 risk for the sake of economic benefit and that it -- {} 12 that's what I've always heard and read in textbooks; l 13 that we take risks because there's benefit. 14 A VOICE: All right. 15 A VOICE: No, we -- 16 A VOICE: Now, I'm wondering about why 17 are we -- the NRC involved in exposing the public to I 18 those kinds of risks, which seem pretty high, when 1 19 economic
- there's no benefit from the operation of Ir 20 Millstone as a power station? So it would seem O
= 21 obviously to a logical, rational person, as I hc ; e I l
22 am, that if there's no benefit, then your risk l b .. : calculations have to change rather dramatically and 24 there becomes an acceptance of no risk because you have POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
l 169 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 O JANUARY 11, 1999 ! l' no economic benefit. And I will give you the figures, 2 some of the economics of Millstone station. This will j 3 be for you. And just -- now, what I'm submitting is 4 NU's numbers. They're not mine. And I'm always leery 5 of what NU says because they're -- they lie quite 6 frequently. But we'll take them on their word for J 7 this. 8 This -- I'll be very quick about this. 9 But the last year that they submitted figures, BUSPAR 10 costs for Millstone 1, I'll say the 5.1 cents. j 11 Millstone 2, 24 cents a kilowatt hour BUSPAR costs. 12 Millstone 3, 24.4 cents BUSPAR costs for kilowatt hour. (]} I 13 Wholesale power have been over the New England market l 14 for less than three cents a kilowatt hour. So it seems 15 that no only do we have no economic benefit associated 16 with bearing this risk, we have economic detriment to 17 quite a large extent of the fact that, well, the last
! 18 year of operation we subsidized Millstone 3 something I 19 like 22 cents a kilowatt hour. There's been a net lr 20 economic loss from running this plant. And I just wish
'C
< 21 you would think about that; that we don't take risks l
22 when there's economic detriment. Maybe we take risks l b 23 when there's economic benefit, but when yea change the 24 equation, I think you really have to start rethinking. O POST REPORTING SERVICE I HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
r MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 O- JANUARY 11, 1999 1 And I really would suggest, gentlemen, 2 that your economic -- what's the word? Your economic 3 productivity to our society is not existence because 1
'4 you are involved in a system that has no economic j 5 benefit to our society and actually quite an economic 6 detriment. Even Seabrook running at 98 percent -- I 7 don't know if any plant is going to beat that again --
8 over 10 cents a kilowatt hour. You are involved in l 9 something that is simply grossly economically l 10 inefficient. l 11 l I think Forbes Magazine, the I 12
} capitalist's tool, the greatest capitalist error of the 13 century, and you personally are involved in its 14 continuation and its promotion -- maybe not -- we won't 15 say promotion because you don't like to hear that word.
16 But you're involved and you're the agents of it 17 continuing. And you have a choice.
! 18 Lastly, I'm going to give this to you.
19 It's a Millstone cancer study by Merritt Paul. He's a ir 20 former military man, rather quite~ conservative. And he
.o
- 21 started looking at some numbers from our state and he l !
22 compared five nuclear towns roughly right around here l l b 23 to five- nuclear towns. And just to give you an i 24 encapsul.ation of this -- and you could take it and read O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
l 171 l MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 JANUARY 11, 1999 1 it. l 2 That generally cancer rates for five 3 non-nuclear towns that match up demographically to the 4 five nuclear towns, cancer rates after 1975 tend to be 5 falling. But for all the five nuclear towns 6 immediately downwind, in the wind row, so to speak, of 7 Millstone, the cancer rates are all level to going up. 8 And I'll give this for your reading. 9 And, also, just to back up what I said 10 about the economic detriment, this is a little thing on
@ 11 a 1.iclear subsidy, something like over 60 billion 12 dollars, Federal tax dollars, to support an industry 13 that produces uneconomic power.
14 Thank you. 15 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Thanks. 16 Are there other questions or comments of 17 a general nature? Not seeing any -- 5 18 A VOICE: I do. I 19 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Oh. I'm sorry. 20 Come in. Come up. O
< 21 A VOICE: I don't know -- if you ever 1
22 get a transcript, you could read this into it. But I l b 23 would like the Commissioners to take a look at that 24 some day. , O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
i l 172 ( p MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 A JANUARY 11, 1999 l 1 Thanks. l l 2 MR. PAUL SCH JFFER: My name is Paul 3 Schaeffer. And I'm curio'I what the NRC's policy on 4 potassium iodide tablets are. I know that you've left 5 some of it up to the states. And I'm curious as a 6 citizen, where can I get an active source via the NRC, 7 which would be nice? And I would pay for the storage 8 myself if it comes to it, if you don't feel that this 9 is good enough to save. Where would I obtain that? 10 MR. DEAN: The potassium iodide issue is l 11 one that the Commission has recently revisited and has 12 recommended to states that they consider as part of 13 their overall program for dealing with nuclear 14 accidents, the potential for storage and distribution 15 of potassium iodide. So, basically, the Commission has 16 informed the states of that policy. That policy will 17 be coming. It has not been finalized yet.
! 18 MR. SCHAEFFER: Right. But it will only i
19 pay for the initial supply and then the first year of j h r I 20 storage. After that, the states would have to pick up O a 21 the cost of storage. ; 22 MR. DEAN: I think that's still being -- l b 23 I think that's still being discussed, who would pay for 24 what and so on. That has not been finalized yet. o POST REPORTING SERVICE l HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 I
T. 173 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 JANUARY 11, 1999 1 MR. SCHAEFFER: So when would that , 2 happen? l 3 MR. DEAN: I believe the schedule is 4 over the next six months or so. I 5 MR. SCHAEFFER: I mean no offense and I l 6 don't want to look to Europe to necessarily think that 7 they have -- they're doing it the right way. But most 8 of Europe has adopted the potassium iodide as a viable 9 thing to prevent, you know, thyroid damage. I mean 10 it's safe --
@ 11 MR. DEAN: There's -- yes. There is a -
12 - well, that's debatable, too.
} There's a whole body of 13 evidence that indicates that, you know, to take the 14 potassium iodide, you've got to take it at the right 15 time, the right amount, depending on the release and so 16 on and so forth. And that's part of the -- you know, 17 part of the whole difficulty with stockpiling and ! 18 distribution; you know, who gets it, when, how do you 19 get it to the right people at the right time.
Ir 20 MR. SCHAEFFER: Well, why can't you just o
< 21 mail it? How -- mail it every six months whether i
j 22 there's -- b 23 MR. DEAN: Well, there are some states, 24 some of the states in the United States, that have -- ( ! POST REPORTING SERVICE { (800) 262-4102 HAMDEN, CT l
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I i i
174 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 l JANUARY 11, 1999 l l l 1 MR. SCHAEFFER: There are at least four. l
- 2 MR. DEAN
- -- opted -- that have opted 1
3 to do -- to stockpile potassium iodide. And, as a i 4 matter of fact, I think we've had some meetings up 5 here. And there was a meeting not too long ago with 6 Headquarters that involved a number of people -- I 7 .believe Mr. Sheridan was there, matter of fact -- to 8 discuss this whole issue and how to pursue it. And so l 9 that's one of the things that the NRC took back about 10 six or seven months ago, a policy statement on this,
@ 11 and asked the staff to rewrite it so that we put more
(} 12 information about how other countries do it and so that 13 the states can make a more informed decision as to how 14 to go about this issue. So that should be forthcoming. 15 MR. SCHAEFFER: But you don't see a 16 national policy on that then? Just guidelines, more 17 guidelines? l
)
! 18 MR. DEAN: That will be -- what do you I: 19 mean, mandating? We will not mandate. There will be
!r 20 no mandate that everybody has to stockpile --
O
= 21 MR. SCHAEFFER; No, no. A mandate that h
i5 22 citizens that would like to, whether their state will h 23 do it or not, but citizens as a private individual 24 would have an avenue to either petition the NRC -- (' [ POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
O MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 175 JANUARY 11, 1999 1 MR. DEAN: 2 To obtain it on their own? MR. SCHAEFFER: 3 To obtain it on their own. Right. 4 MR. DEAN: S I don't know the answer to that question. I don't know the 6 answer to that question. 7 A VOICE: It's a good comment. 8 I don't know. There's got to be a 9 way to feed that back into the people who are looking at his. 10 MR. DEAN: l 11 Well, your -- matter of fact, your Representative Sheridan or Selectman Sheridan is a ({} 12 person, you know, he's 13 been involved in a number of meetings. And he's taken a very active role 14 in this. I would think, for example, Susan Perry Luxton and CRC 15 probably would be involved in providing some sort of 16 information. Remember, 17 it's going to come to the State Representatives and to your state
! 18 Ed Wilds, who is the --
- 19 I
e CHAIRPERSON LANNING: DEP. 20 3 MR. DEAN: DEP. Okay. 21 He's very i involved in pursuing how the State pursues this. He ij 22 certainly would be an avenue that 5 23 I would provide here for comments, too, as well. 24 A VOICE: Okay. I POST REPORTING HAMDEN, CT SERVICE (800) 262-4102
I l o j 175 l MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 JANUARY 11, 1999 l 1 MR. DEAN: To obtain it on their own? 2 MR. SCHAEFFER: To obtain it on their l 3 own.- Right. l l 4 MR. DEAN: I don't know the answer to 5 that . question. I don't know the _ answer to that 6 question. 7 A VOICE: It's a good comment. I don't 8 know. There's got to be a way to feed that back into l 9 the people who are looking at his. 10 MR. DEAN: Well, your -- matter of fact, l 11 your Representative Sheridan or Selectman Sheridt- is a 12 person, you know, he's .been involved in a number of i (]} 13 meetings. And he's taken a very active role in this. 14 I would think, for example, Susan Perry Luxton and CRC 15 probably would be involved in providing some sort of 16 information. Remember, it's going to come to the State 17 Representatives and to your state -- Ed Wilds, who is
! 18 the --
l: 19 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: DEP. Ir 20 MR. DEAN: DEP. Okay. He's very O
< 21 involved in pursuing how the State pursues this. He l
22 certainly would be an avenue that I would provide here l b 23 for comments, too, as well. 24 A VOICE: Okay. O POST REPORTING SER'/ ICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l l
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' 176 MEETING-RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 JANUARY 11, 1999 1 MR. SCHAEFFER: And the other thing that 2 I wanted to just question is the Alair principle, l 3 You're all familiar with it and you could recite it. 4 Now,odo you really believe that there is such a thing l 5 as a safe radiation dose? And is it -- science backs 6 it up that it isn't. There's not such a thing as a l 7 safe low-level radiation dose. It's potentially more 8 of a cumulative effect. 9 We have mice right now in Chernobyl in 10 the sarcophagus tomb that are more genetically similar l; 11 to rats than they are to other mice. Radiation does (} 12 mess with your DNA and your genes. 13 Now, this -- as low as reasonably 14 allowable or achievable? Why can't we just have zero? 15 What's wrong with that? I mean outside of your cosmic l 16 and your regular terrestrial radiation. 17 A VOICE: And x-rays and all the other
! 18 things that we get --
1 19 MR. SCHAEFFER: That's right. Don't -- r i 20 don't we already get enough? o a 21 MR. MILLER: Well, that's the -- that's I 22 been the -- [ 23 MR. SCHAEFFER: I mean that's an 24 arbitrary number. O POST REFORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
177 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3 (<~)s JANUARY 11, 1999 1 MR. MILLER: Yes. And that's a good 2 question. And it's the central question that has 3 existed from the time that the Atomic Energy Commission 4 was formed and started setting standards. And in the 5 end, the Federal Government has relied upon the 6 conclusions of the International Council on Radiation 7 Protection, ICRP, and other, you know -- mainly the 8 ICRP. And then we have the Federal Government has j 9 sponsored the so-called Beere report, which was the l 10 National Academy of Sciences, the biological effects of
)
@ 11 ionizing radiation. )
- 1 12 knd in the end, the decisions were made
(]) 13 that taking all things into account, including what you 14 get from terrestrial and cosmic radiation, that the 15 limits that have been set are protective of public 16 health and safety. 17 But we could get into a long, long
! 18 conversation about whether the linear, you know, no l 19 threshold dose model is the right one or not. And as a 20 matter of national policy, in addition to setting those o
- 21 limits which we believe protect people from injury and l
22 harm, we have also made Alair a principle and we push l b 23 licensees, licensees push themsc1ves to reduce low dose 24 to as low as reasonably achievable. POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
178 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE-UNITS 2 & 3 l () JANUARY 11,'1999 1 And if you look at the doses over time - 2 - and the bulk of the doses are worker-related. I mean 3 let's face it. That's where the real doses are. 4 MR. SCHAEFFER: But -- 5 MR. MILLER: Those are -- that -- 6 MR. SCHAEFFER: -- just to be fair, 7 workers are checked. They're checked before they go in 8 the plant. They're checked after it. Okay? Is Joe 9 down the street checked? No. Are the people who -- 10 let's face it. The coal industry, for instance. Is j 11 there a lot of policing right next to the plant or l () 12 sometimes it's downwind and -- 13 MR. MILLER: Well, we require -- several i 14 things r; point out there. First of all, we require i 4 J 15 the environmental monitoring that is done, the effluent l 16 monitoring. 17 MR. SCHAEFFER: Right. And those have l
! 18 always worked at Millstone. Not ever during the
- 19 release in the history of the Millstone plant have they i lr 20 not worked.
l l O a 2' MR. MILLER: So that's one thing. 22 Second thing is the -- are the epidemiological studies l b 23 that have been done around selected nuclear power 24 plants. And I think you know that epidemiological O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 t
179 I MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 JANUARY 11, 1999 1 studies are very expensive. And they have been 2 performed. And it's my understanding that those 3 results have not shown an increased level, significant I 4 increase around nuclear power plants. 5 And so the government has done things to 6 establish the principles in the first place and the 7 limits and then has had a program around every plant to 8 check on effluents and then, thirdly, you know, has 9 done, you know, periodic epidemiological studies. 10 That's a whole other area, though, and I recognize that l; 11 there can be debate on it. But that's, you know -- (} 12 MR. SCHAEFFER: Well, Millstone cost 3.8 13 billion dollars. How much is an epidemiological study? 14 MR. MILLER: I don't know the answer to 15 that. But -- 16 MR. SCHAEFFER: Do you think it's one 17 percent of that value?
! 18 MR. MILLER: I don't know.
! 19 l t MR. SCHAEFFER: No. It's probably less.
! h ! t 20 Isn't that -- isn't that worth doing the effort? O a 21 MR. MILLER: Yes. Maybe -- 22 MR. SCHAEFFER: You represent -- l 23 MR. MILL 5R: .The record is what it is. 24 And the basis for the limits is -- O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 L
180 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 &3
,j JANUARY 11, 1999 1 MR. SCHAEFFER: They're kind of 2 arbitrary, 3 MR. MILLER. -- a matter of record. And i i
4 -- 1 5 MR. SCHAEFFER: And because you're 1 l 6 agreeing that they're arbitrary -- t 7 MR. MILLER: I respect -- 8 MR. SCHAEFFER: You are enforcing a 9 policy based on an arbitrary scale. And I understand 10 that you're limited by this is what the laws are or j 11 this is what the policy states. And as long as they (~ 12 discharge below this threshold, we have to okay them. U) 13 But sometimes you have to step above that and
)
14 understand that what the government says or what the 15 limitations are or the tolerances are are not good 16 enough, that it -- as long as -- 17 What you're able to say is if they can
! 18 release 500,000 gallons of "X" and they release 19 499,000, that's good. On the other hand, they could 20 also probably release 50,000 by being better. And O < 21 that's where I think you guys are missing some of the
- I g 22 point. You have to -- with radiation and nuclear b 23 power, civilians are quite scared of it. They're --
24 they don't understand it. And they have every right r"N l (_) POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 1 1 b.
181 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3 O JANUARY 11, 1999 1 to, because they've been lied to for so long. A lot of 2 our money goes to subsidizing these things. And once - 3 - even the gentleman pointed out on the benefit ratio 4 and the costs of nuclear power, it's clearly not viable 5 any more. So why even subsidize it? Why even -- why 6 even let a plant refuel when we don't even know what we 7 can do with the possible spent fuel rods right now? We 8 have no place to put them. That's a government -- 9 another government thing. Right. They will building 10 and promising that they were going to have a suitable j 11 waste long-term storage before -- when was the original () 12 date? 13 A VOICE: This year. 14 MR. SCHAEFFER: No , no. The original ] l 15 date that was set up. It was not this year. ! l 16 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Well, you're l 17 talking DOE, also. So we're getting a little off track
! 18 here.
i
; 19 MR. MILLER: Yes. We appreciate your l
r 20 comments, though.
- O
- 21 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Yes.
k j 22 MR. SCHAEFFER: Thank you. b 23 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: All right. Thank 24 you very much. O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
r I , 182 (~g MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 2 & 3
'(,) JANUARY 11, 1999 1 Okay. Any other comments before we say 2 good night?
3 A VOICE: We'll give you these papers 4 for the copies. 5 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Okay. But no more 6 comments. 7 A VOICE: There is a comment. If you 8 re-analyze the National Cancer Institute study of 1980, 9 that shows no cancer, nuclear power plants. If you 10 analyze it looking at downwind counties, cancer, same l 11 statistics, same figures. (} 12 A VOICE: Thank you very much. 13 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Good night. Thank 14 you for coming. The meeting is closed. 15 (Whereupon, the meeting was concluded.) l: t i O i l 8 (_) POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
l I 1 1 CERTIFICATE b v , I, Paul Landman, a Notary Public in. and for the State of Connecticut, and President of Post Reporting Service, Inc., do hereby certify that, to the best 1 of my knowledge, the foregoing record is a correct and verbatim transcription i of the audio recording made of the proceeding hereinbefore set forth. l I further certify that neither the audio operator nor I are attorney or counsel for, nor directly related to or employed by any of the parties to the action sad /or proceeding in which this action is taken; and further, that neither i o the audio operator nor I are a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel E employed by the parties thereto, or financially interested in any way in the O outcome of this action or proceeding. In witness whereof I have hereunto set my hand and do so attest to the above, this 22ndday of Jan. ,19 99
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a YClinlman, ~ O President 1 i POST REPORTING SERVICE 1-800-262-4102
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