ML20138M731
| ML20138M731 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Millstone  |
| Issue date: | 05/22/1996 |
| From: | NRC (Affiliation Not Assigned) |
| To: | |
| References | |
| NUDOCS 9702260041 | |
| Download: ML20138M731 (54) | |
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NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 4
i i
Title:
Interview of James Tyrol i
Docket Number:
(not assigned) i i
Location:
Waterford, Connecticut 1
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Date:
Wednesday, May 22,1996 i
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$1 IS j
Work Order No.:
NRC-679 Pages 1-49 I
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NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
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1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
+ ++++
4 OFFICE OF NUCLEAR REACTOR REGULATION 5
INTERVIEW 6
X 7
IN THE MATTER OF:
l 8
MILLSTONE REVIEW GROUP 9
ALLEGATIONS AND EMPLOYEE CONCERNS Case File No.
10 (not assigned) 11 INTERVIEW OF:
i 12 JAMES TYROL 13
X I
14 Wednesday, May 22, 1996 15 1
16 Millstone Nuclear Power Station 17 Training Building, Room 5 18 15 Rope Ferry Road 19 Waterford, Connecticut 20 The above-entitled interview was conducted at 1:00 21 a.m.
22 4
23 3EFORE:
JOHN HANNAN 24 RANDY HUEY j
25 CARL MOHRWINKEL i
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P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S k
2 (1:01 p.m.)
3 4hereupon, j
4 JAMES TYROL 5
was called for examination, and after having been first 6
$uly sworn, assumed the witness stand, was examined and i
7 testified as follows:
i 8
MR. HANNAN:
Good afternoon.
Today is May the 9
22nd, 1996.
It's approximately 1:00 p.m.
My name is John 10 dannan, and I am here at the simulator building at 11 Willstone Station as a leader of an NRC review team 12 looking into the handling of employee concerns and 13 s11egations at Millstone during the last ten years.
14 Let me introduce the others.
I have with me 15 Carl Mohrwinkel, case reviewer we have with the interview
' 16 this afternoon, and Randy Huey, also a case reviewer.
As 17 I said, I am normally a project director in the Office of 18 Reactor Regulation, and I have been appointed to this 1
19 bask.
Our purpose is fact finding.
20 We are trying to discover what has gone wrong, 21 if anything, with the way the processes work, try to 22 Sevelop a factual record that will help us discover 23 probably root causes, and assist in our determination of 24 potential corrective actions that we could recommend that 25 would help both the NRC and Northeast Utilities to improve i
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1 3
1 the process for future employee concerns and allegations.
2 We are not conducting an inspection or an 3
investigation.
If we were to uncover information that would involved those areas, we would refer inspection type 4
5 information to our office in King of Prussia, Region 1.
6 And if we have potential wrongdoing concerns that are new, 7
we would be referring that to our Office of 8
Investigations.
9 So again, our focus is on the process and how 10 it can be made to work better in the future.
We are 11 having this interview transcribed for two reasons.
- One, 12 so we can focus on what you're telling us without having 13 to be diverted by note taking.
And second is we'll have a g
14 document we can later go back and refer to as we conduct i
15 sur deliberations.
16 The accuracy of your transcript is important 17 to us and we will afford you the opportunity as we have 18 everyone else to go back after we get it and review it and 19 nake any clarifications or corrections you want that would 20
-- on errata sheets that we would provide for you, and 21
['ll be giving you a handout that describes how that 22 process will be conducted at the end of the interview.
23 We also intend to place your transcript in the 24
- public record -- in the public document room at the t
25 conclusion of our review effort unless you object.
If NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W.
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l 4
1 you have a reason to think that some of the information 2
you are providing should be withheld, we would honor a 3
request to withhold it from the public domain.
4 At this time, do you have a preference about 5
how your transcript should be handled?
4 6
THE WITNESS:
No, it can be a public record.
7 MR. HANNAN:
Okay.
Do you have any other 8
questions or comments before we start asking questions?
9 THE WITNESS:
No.
10 MR. HANNAN:
Okay, to start off with, Jim, 11
.:ould you just explain what your role is now at -- as it 12 relates to the NSCP?
13 THE WITNESS:
I work -- Jim Tyrol -- I work in
(
14
-:he nuclear safety concerns program, and I went over there 15
':emporarily in September.
And probably one of the easiest l
16 ways to explain it is it tends to be like a union steward 17 cole.
In other words, I go out and I work with the troops 18 on a one to one basis.
If I hear something, I go and try 19 to find out if it's -- if it's substantiated.
Or if 20 nomebody has a problem and they don't want to deal with 21
.t, then I'll take it and write an adverse condition 22 report or whatever may be ne.:essary -- a trouble report --
23 to bring that item forward.
24 If it's of a nuclear nature, then of course 25 ve'd turn it into a concern for the person.
Generally g
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I they would come up and say I have a nuclear concern, and k
2 we'd go from there with that.
But I go around the site on 3
a day to day basis and see what I can help people with.
4 MR. HANNAN:
And how long have you been --
l 5
THE WITNESS:
I started in September 6
temporarily of the last year,
'95.
And then right around l
7 January, they decided to make it permanent, I believe.
8 And they're still working on the paperwork to transfer the 9
actual monies and stuff, but I work for Larry Chatfield 10 full time.
i i
11 MR. HUEY:
How does what you do differ from 12 other peers?
13 THE WITNESS:
A peer -- I was a peer for a 14 rear.
In fact, I joined when it first started the 15 orogram.
A peer is generally in a department and he i
16 Listens and reacts with people in the department.
My 17 experience with the peers has been that they on an overall 18 basis don't put a great deal into it.
Some do, some 19 don't.
20 But the job I have now where I actually go out 21 and work with the people and I can get off to the side 22 with them is far, far and away a better way to do it.
We 23 hope to get a guy in each plant.
24 MR. HUEY:
How so do you go out to -- do you 25 drum up business or do you --
(
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~
1 THE WITNESS:
Yes, I will drum up business if k
2 it's necessary.
I will -- if somebody -- if I hear of 3
something that I think is of importance, I will go and try 4
to find out the root of it.
It's been my nature -- I've 5
$one that every since I started working hera.
I've never 6
turned my back on anything like that.
7 MR. HANNAN:
Are you the first roving person 8
that has been used here?
9 THE WITNESS:
Yes, I believe so.
I don't know 10 of any others that did what I do.
11 MR. HANNAN:
You're covering all three 12
- 4111 stone site stations?
13 THE WITNESS:
That's right.
14 MR. HANNAN:
And is there -- you say there's 15 aome move to begin an individual like you for each one of 16 The units?
17 THE WITNESS:
Yes, I believe that in the 18 program plan that they're working on, they want to put a 19 person on each unit and then still have me out walking all 20 the units.
21 MR. MOHRWINKEL:
Could you describe for us 22
.ike what your typical day is?
23 THE WITNESS:
Well, I come in in the morning 24 ond open up the office.
Usually I'm the first one in.
25 Give a listen to my telephone, see if there's any messages NEAL R. GROSS CX)URT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W.
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7 1
on there.
Go out and check the computer.
We have the 2
program there where you can get mail from across the site.
3 Take a look at that.
4 Larry usually comes in around 20 after --
5 between 7:20 after, and we go over and see~ what tha 6
director's meeting is doing.
And that usually gets over 7
mround quarter of 8:00.
And then from there, I split off 8
and go out into the plant and start talking with people 9
and seeing how things are going and listening.
10 MR. HUEY:
How would you divide your time by -
11
- how would you -- what self design indicators have you 12 developed for yourself to decide where you're going to 13 spend time?
4 14 THE WITNESS:
Usually there's something -- you 15 pick up on something.
I'll hear somebody talking about 16 nomething -- say something was going on down at Unit 1 and 17
ll just head down therd and see if I can find something, 18 or I'll just walk around and talk with people on a normal 19 conversation and converse.
20 MR. HUEY:
Is there any structured method of aking sure you touch base in each of the departments?
21 n
22 THE WITNESS:
Well, it's a pretty big plant.
23 MR. HUEY:
I mean, over some time period like 24
- .nce a year.
25 THE WITNESS:
There isn't -- to my knowledge, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RMODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W (202) 2344433 WASHINGTON, O C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
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'l 8
I there's not a driving force that tells me to do that.
2 That would be a normal course of events, try to get 3
everywhere you can.
Some places are off in the corner and 4
stuff and they don't have a lot of problems or they're not 5
involved with a lot of the work that creates the problems.
6 I try to spend a good amount of time around 7
the engineering departments.
That's where I've seen most 8
af the problems.
9 MR. HANNAN:
What is your background?
10 THE WITNESS:
I started with the company back 11 Ln the early 70's in Unit 1 as a mechanic and a welder.
12 And then I went to Unit 2 in about '73 or '74 and started 13 up Unit 2, and I stayed in Unit 2 as a mechanic until 14 about 1980.
And then I transferred to tech support, which 15 was engineering.
They chano*d it to tech support later.
' 16 I was in tech support until '95 when I moved 17 over here.
18 MR. HANNAN:
As a mechanic still or --
19 THE WITNESS:
In tech support, I was an ISI l
20 t;echnician.
l 21 MR. MOHRWINKEL:
Which means?
22 THE WITNESS:
An in service inspection --
23
- t. hat's the in service inspection program for pumps and 24 7 alves.
25 MR. MOHRWINKEL:
That's your specialty?
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4 9
1 THE WITNESS:
And Section 11 and stuff like
! (
2 that, yeah.
I spent a lot of time doing pumps and valves 3
and equipment.
4 MR. HANNAN:
What level of certification do 5
fou --
1 6
THE WITNESS:
My certification was a -- when I i
7 3riginally started I was a VT 1 through 4.
I took that j
8
- ertification quite a while back.
In fact, I filled in i
9 with that doing inspections as needed in the plant.
In 10 emergency conditions like if we had to have an inspector
]
4 11 in a hurry, they'd call me in at night or something.
I
\\
12
- an inspect for a hydro or something like that.
13 MR. MOHRWINKEL:
Did you learn that experience 14 Ln the service or did you go to school or --
15 THE WITNESS:
No, I learned it all in the i
16
?ower house.
I started out as a helper mechanic in South 2
17 l(eadow Station up in Hartford and moved up from there.
18 MR. HANNAN:
So you're still considered level 19
-four?
20 THE WITNESS:
No, right now I'm a Technician 21 13, which is -- it's the highest level technician that the 22 company has.
I'm still hourly paid.
23 MR. HUEY:
Is there a formal position 24 description for what you do or any proceduralization --
25 THE WITNESS:
They're writing it.
g NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCR$ERS 1323 MHODE ISU.ND AVENUE, N W (202) 2344433 WASHINGTON, D C. 20005 (202) 2344433
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MR. H Ub".' :
It's in the process --
2 THE WITNESS:
Yes.
3 MR. HUEY:
-- of being developed?
4 THE WITNESS:
Yes, it's brand new.
5 MR. HANNAN:
So you've been doing this since 6
september kind of ad hoc?
7 THE WITNESS:
Yes.
- 8 MR. HANNAN:
Have you had any performance 9
appraisal by Larry or anybody else that would have judged 10 your performance in, say, the first six months?
i 11 THE WITNESS:
No, not yet.
Not a formal 9
12 alppraisal.
Usually technicians are -- you get a warm up 13 itbout every six months.
They'll check you out and once a 14 year you get your merit increases or whatever they want to a
15 pive you.
But it's usually about every six months.
So 16 it's about due.
17 MR. HUEY:
If you were to for our benefit 18 i temize what you've managed -- what you think you've anaged to accomplish thus far -- I guess even before 19 l
20 tarting that, do you judge that what you're doing is 21
% orthwhile and it's something that should be continued?
22 and if so, give us some examples of like what you've 23 accomplished thus far.
24 THE WITNESS:
Well, the biggest accomplishment i
25
.s having somebody available in the field for somebody to i
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talk to.
l (
For years I would go do battle right from my 2
$esk with -- you know, go head to head with managers and 3
things and -- over situations that I didn't think they sere being conservative enough or they were going their 4
5 own direction.
l 6
And right or wrong, I would go after that.
7 And by going into the fisld now, I've given people that 8
place to go and vent to bring that information.
And 9
that's something we didn't have.
It's very important.
10 MR. HUEY:
Valuable?
11 THE WITNESS:
Oh, I'm very valuable.
Not 12 because I'm doing it, because I know people like it.
13 rou'll find some that don't, and of course there's 14 probably some people inside that don't like me,
- okay, 15 l ell that's personalities.
You have those personalities.
16 hhen you work some place for 26 years, there's bound to be 17 a omebody that doesn't care for you.
18 But by and large, I think it's a -- it's 19 pretty well accepted.
And I got feedback this morning 20 Crom one of the directors that said that, you know, they 21 had heard I was well liked in the field.
So, with that 22
):ind of input,,I don't know how you can knock it.
23 MR. HANNAN:
Give us some examples -- like 24 v iat would you say would be the best example of what t
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accomplished if you hadn't been there?
! (
j 2-THE WITNESS:
More personnel issues than i
3 anything else.
We have quite a bit of head bumping 4
.setween the personnel department, management and j
5
- Hersonnel.
And just recently, I had a person that was l
6 having some problems with a manager and I was able to l
7 onter into that and go to meetings with them and personnel
[
8 and their management and stuff like that to give support l
9 to the person, the employee, d
10 And I have a feeling that it made a difference i
11
- .n what happened.
I really do.
I think in some respects I;
12 there's still a little bit of that old days routine of I'm
](
13 the boss, you do what I say.
1 14 MR. HUEY:
Any examples in the nuclear arena?
i e
4 15 THE WITNESS:
As for findings?
16 MR. HUEY:
As for where you can help somebody 4
j 17 i ccomplish his objectives.
4 18 THE WITNESS:
Well, if they have a concern and i
(:
19
- hey address it as a concern, of course we'd follow up on 20
- bat.
If I find something that's technically incorrect, 21 1: hen I would address it.
22 MR. HUEY:
Right, but I'm speaking pecifically have you had any specific examples in the few 23 u
24 nonths you've been able to do this thus far?
l 25 THE WITNESS:
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in the folders.
I can't -- I go through so much stuff 2
every day that -- and there's so much of it that's 3
personal related and non-nuclear -- you know, personnel 4
orientation.
5 MR. HANNAN:
You indicated that you felt 6
rou're comparable to a shop steward.
I take it there are 7
no -- there's no union 8
THE WITNESS:
No.
9 MR. HANNAN:
-- at Millstone?
So you view 10 your job'really kind of as a shop steward and almost like 11 on ombudsman for people having personnel issues -- they 12 come to you.
13 THE WITNESS:
Yes, that's right.
14 MR. HANNAN:
I heard this in an earlier 15 i nterview this morning.
I think I got the focus that not 16 i lot of people apparently understand how the NSCP process 17 u orks such that they're not clear on if they were to ring something to the NSCP, that it would get an 18 19 independent, thorough, technical evaluation beyond what it 20 would have normally got anyway through the normal chain of 21 command.
22 How do you react to that?
23 THE WITNESS:
Well, I think most issues -- all ssues that come in through as a real concern would get an 24 t
(
25 o ppropriate review.
I wouldn't do that.
That's not my NEAL R. GROSS court REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W.
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job.
I spend most of my time trying to find that sort of k
2 ching.
Don't have a lot of input as to, you know, the 3
actual basis or how they really do it.
4 MR. HUEY:
Well, let's say for example I were i
5 a concerned I&C tech and I have a concern that procedures 6
aren't being followed for doing nuclear instrument 7
calibrations.
And accordingly, instruments are improperly 4
8 calibrated.
And you get wind of it and come to me and ask 9
ff you can do something, and I say to you no, you can't do 10 tnything for me; I feel helpless here within the NU nvironment because if I come to you, the nuclear safety 11 i
12
- oncern program is just going to turn the issue over to my
- the I&C organization because this is a technical issue 13 14 a nd you don't have anybody in the nuclear safety concerns 15 program staff that's capable of independently evaluating
'16 ny concern.
17 So why should I come to you?
You aren't going 18 to be able to do anything for me but give it to the people 19 ttiat already aren't doing anything.
20 THE WITNESS:
Well, that's a good point.
The 21 b ard part is getting people to actually, you know, tell 22 y 3u all of what the problem is.
Sometimes they don't want 23 t o get involved.
And you can pick up on something like 24 t lat.
You won't get a good straight answer.
4 If it appears to be a nuclear issue -- nuclear 25 NEAL R. GFK)SS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W.
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- oncern issue with, you know, following the procedures k
1 2
and such, I'll bring it back to Larry, We'll sit down and 3
$1scuss it.
And then I know -- I think they're in the 4
process now of revising our procedures to make them more 1
5 1seable.
6 They were pretty strong to begin with, but I 7
believe it would then probably go to somebody like Mike 8
Brown who would do an investigation.
I think that's the i
t 9
new way of doing it.
10 MR. HUEY:
Would you be able to give any pecific encouragement or explanation to this employee as 3
11 o
12 to how --
13 THE WITNESS:
Yeah.
14 MR. HUEY:
-- his concern can get some
)
15 t.echnical evaluation independent of his own review chain?
16 THE WITNESS:
Trust is a tough thing to build.
17 That's what we work on the hardest here is trying to get l
18
- eople to get trust back into the system.
The system, I d
19
):elieve, will work.
I think in the past the system's been lowed down, bogged down by some of the top leaders.
But 20 s
21
- t think by the nature and how I go about it, I can get the 22 1:rust -- he'll trust me to do what is necessary to bring i
23 that concern forward.
24 MR. HUEY:
Well, what are you going to tell I
(
25 ne?
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l 16 a
1 THE WITNESS:
What am I going to tell you?
!k 2
MR. HUEY:
Okay, I've told you that procedure a
(
3
- (,Y,X is not being followed.
And as a result, the safety e
(
4
.njection pump flow instruments are incorrectly set so hat the system isn't functioning the way it's supposed 5
t i
i 6
ho.
j 7
THE WITNESS:
Well, just -- we'd have to go I.
8 nake that a concern whether he agreed with it or not l
9 tecause that's safety related equipment.
If you've got l
10 equipment that's not functioning right and they're taking
- redit for it, that's no good.
We have to go make a j
11 u
12
- oncern whether you were happy with that or not.
i.
13 MR. HUEY:
Okay, and let's -- so you pursue it k
i 14
- hrough -- I assume that you're doing it by going back I
15
- hrough the I&c organization?
16 THE WITNESS:
No, not necessarily.
It could 17 a tart off with an ACR to get it rolling, bring it V
l 18 1 brough -- if something like that is going on in the t
3 19 field, more than one person knows about it, Mike Brown i
20 probably definitely get involved and go out and find out j
i j
21 nmat's going on.
But we'd have to get that equipment 1
22 cl eclared' inoperable -- go see the SS or whatever it took 23 t id get that piece of gear taken out of service.
4 24 MR. MOHRWINKEL:
SS?
(
25 THE WITNESS:
Shift supervisor, now is a shift NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRISERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W.
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l i
17 1
manager, SS.
Because non-functioning equipment, you know,.
]
l 2
being operable, that's no good.
1 4
3 MR. MONRWINKEL:
How long would that process 4
bake in his example?
5 THE WITNESS:
If I find out they had in 6
service equipment that wasn't operable, I'd be up to the 7
shif t manager's office in -- before -- you know, the door 1
8 sould still be swinging.
s 9
MR. HUEY:
This is my opinion that it's 10 Lnoperable.
11 THE WITNESS:
Still we're going to go look at 12 that.
That's not a hard thing to do.
That's very simple 13 o do.
We'll get right on it.
g 14 MR. MONRWINKEL:
Five minutes?
15 THE WITNESS:
Yes, five, ten, 15 minutes.
You 16 can get up to the shift manager, you can get the
-- go 17 over the engineering and get the system engineer.
Of i
18 course, I'd let Larry know what was going on.
But we'd l
19 ntart making the circle and find out whether or not this 20 cure was operable or not.
21 MR. HANNAN:
I want to come back to your point 22 about trust.
And you indicated that -- I understand a 23
- .arge percentage of the people don't want to bring issues 24 forward, and your main goal is to try to attempt. to get t
25 that out.
Even if they are reluctant to press something, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRISERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W.
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you'll take it and go with it.
k 2
Why is this reluctance still -- what's -- this 3
Lssue of trust has been known since 1991.
L 4
THE WITNESS:
Before that.
5 MR. HANNAN:
And probably before that.
What's 6
going on?
Why hasn't somebody fixed the problem?
i 7
THE WITNESS:
Well, see, it has to start at
{.
8
- he top.
You know, and you -- people look for leaders, l
9 and leaders are far and few between.
How would you say --
l 10
.Lt's difficult to hold trust when the objective -- the 11 inanager's' objective -- his goals are that he will cut his 12 budget down as far as he can because this is the other 13 people's goals to cut the money out, to go off -- and you 14 ltnow they're going to go out and buy another subsidiary or 15 nomething like that with it.
16 And they tell you they're going to be number -
we're not going to be number one.
We're going to be 17 l
18 number two.
And of course, the realization of that is you 19 can't be number two.
You're going to go right to the 20 bottom.
So it's a head hanging process where people --
21 pou know, the trust is gone, but they don't feel there's 22 any hope.
l 23 So rather than jeopardize what job they have 24 feeling that, you know, it could be gone any time now; j
25 uell, we'll just carry on and see what happens.
So you
-t 4
j NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS i
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inve to get them back into the loop where they think that
(
2 they're going to have some time in the company.
I joined 3
- his company for my whole life.
4 I didn't join it to, you know, work today and 5
gone tomorrow.
And some people are -- they're new in the 6
gate and they just -- they've never seen anything 7
different than the information that's been put out, which 8
Is, you know, we'll be number two or something like that -
9
-- have a lot of fixes to a lot of programs and get them 10
.nitiated, and then they don't follow through with them.
11 And the objectives never get met, things like 12 that.
So, it kind of pulls people down.
13 MR. MOMRWINKEL:
Several people have said they 14 feel that their concern with the ECP or NSCP program is 15 that it's a part of management, that -- they even use 16 the -- some examples like they'll get letters that say we, 17 I he company, feel rather than the company feels, you feel, nd we are going to identify the employee concerns program 18 n
19 vith management.
20 Here's somebody who's been a mechanic for 21 rears.
You view yourself kind of as a shop steward.
You 22
- .bviously are a guy who speaks his mind.
Now you've sort 23
- f joined management.
How do you feel about that and how 24 d o you explain your role to employees when they express
(
25
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maybe?
2-THE WITNESS:
I don't generally take the 3
company'line.
I've always been difficult to deal with 4
when it comes to promises -- when they promise you all 5
kinds of things and then they fall short on them.
I don't 6
generally fall into that.
And that's one of the reasons 7
that I have some respect in-the field is people know that 8
I'm not sucked into the company.line.
9 As far as the pieces of paper that you speak 10 Of, they are formal.
I don't particularly like that.
I 11
=an't -- I have no control over that.
They say things in 12 there that would lead people to believe that this is, you 13 (now, a company program -- is a company program.
I'm 14 afraid legal has an awful lot of swing in this company.
15 And we can't -- you can't run a company like
' 16 that with lawyers.
You've got to run a company on, you 17 lcnow, leadership and workers who trust in you -- you know, 18 working together.
19 MR. MOHRWINKEL:
You said you can't control 20 the letters.
But do you feel yourself as having adequate 21 nput to Larry and --
22 THE. WITNESS:
Oh, absolutely.
23 MR. MOHRWINKEL:
Why hasn't this begin to 24 c:hange?
(
25 THE WITNESS:
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long.
And I haven't been involved with very many f(
2 concerns.
j 3
MR. HUEY:
I'm sorry, when did you say you a
1 4
started in this new capacity?
i j
5 THE WITNESS:
I started temporarily in 6
September.
And then right around January, I believe, they 7
$ecided to make.it -- it was right after you fellows came in and did an inspection and thought it was a good idea, j
8 l
9 they said they like it, INPO liked it, let's make it work.
10 So then from there, now I'm growing into it and trying i
11 to --
g 12 MR. HUEY:
So permanent like in -- around I
13 January of '96?
!I 14 THE WITNESS:
Yeah, right around when your j
15 fellows came in and did that audit.
It was right after ls 16 Shat.
The INPO fellows were here.
I'm not too good with 17 She date on that.
t 18 MR. HUEY:
Okay.
19 MR. MOHRWINKEL:
But so -- let me digress for 20 a second.
But do you feel that Chatfield listens to you I
21 and --
i 22 THE WITNESS:
Oh, yeah.
i 23 MR. MONRWINKEL:
-- do you think there's a 24 possibility that this will become less formal?
Because i
t 25 rou made the point about lawyers.
We've heard from other l
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(
people that are trying to minimize lawyer involvement 1
l-2 particularly in personnel type things.
What's your view i
3 of all those questions?
i 4
THE WITNESS:
I think Bill Gagnon, the fellow 5
from Seabrook, is working on procedures to help get them 6
in the perspective -- try to cut back on some of the 7
excessive paper work that's involved.
It takes -- it's
'8 quite a torture path to get a concern in and closed out 9
.and all right now.
We're trying to get that closed down 4
so it can be more real.
10 l
i 11 There's a lot of work that goes into concerns 12 ithen you start trying to figure out if -- you know, what i
1 l
13 the real facts are and what's there.
Unless it's really j
14 out and dry, it takes a little bit of research and a 15
.ittle bit of looking around.
We were looking at a i
16 icensee that we had received some information that a 17
.icensee's data wasn't right.
18 It took us six months or three months --
19 probably three months just to get -- find the information 20 t.o figure out what that was -- because it went back into 21 t.he 80's.
And we never did find anything on instant STA 22 t'ack in the early 80's that was -- a requirement was i
23 d ifferent from regular SRO.
But you know, this fellow was i
- ertain that there was a different requirement and this j
24 i
25 quy didn't meet it.
i i
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l 23 l,
1 Boy, we hunted and pecked and looked and
(
r 2
carried on, and we can't find anything different.
The i
3 requirement's four years.
So that's where we stand on 4
that.
But it does take some looking on some of these 5
things.
If it's equipment, that's easy.
That gets pretty I
6 easy.
I wasn't involved in the old fuel pool caper, but 7
(ou know, that's pretty cut and dry in my book.
8 MR. HANNAN:
Would you view your performance 9
successful if someone filed a DPO now?
10 THE WITNESS:
A differing professional 11 opinion?
12 MR. HANNAN:
Yes.
13 THE WITNESS:
Say that again.
(
14 MR. HANNAN:
Yes, a DPO, a diffsring 15 professional --
16 THE WITNESS:
What about it?
17 MR. HANNAN:
Well, let's say it's a perfect 18 uorld.
19 THE WITNESS:
Okay.
20 MR. HANNAN:
And you're doing a perfect job.
21 Then as I understand what your role is as you described it 22 t:o me, then I would expect you to ferret out any employee 23
- oncerns where people were reluctant to bring them 24 f orward.
Okay, so one measure of success for your
(
25 performance might be that after you've been instituted, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W (202) 2344433 WA$HINGTON, D C. 20005 (702)2344433
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(
there are no further differing professional opinions 1
4 because you have already uncovered those issues early on l
2 l
3 and taken care of them -- gotten them resolved so that 4
there doesn't need to be a DPO filed.
5 THE WITNESS:
Well, a differing professional 3 pinion to me is if I'm an engineer and I have all my 6
7 facts right, I think this is the way it should be.
And if 8
rou're an engineer and you have all your facts, you say 9
this is the way it should be.
We have a differing 10 professional opinion.
That doesn't necessarily mean that 11 this piece of equipment is wrong either way we do it.
12 That doesn't necessarily mean that there's 13 something wrong there.
And you can run that -- I've got
(
14 Lnvolved with people with differing professional opinions 15 and tried to help them to go meetings and stuff like that i
16 and get it out.
And they didn't write it down as a 17 differing professional opinion.
18 It was fellow in one group said that the 19 Cellow in another group wasn't doing -- you know, they 20 weren't reading it right.
The requirements or the QA 21 versus non-QA, whatever.
Material spec, let's say.
22 hetually it wasn't a material spec.
They said this piece f pipe is not the material spec that the original 23 o
24 requirement was.
I(
25 So we got into that, and I went to meetings NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.
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1 25 1
with them and everything else.
And the engineering k
2 1epartment went off and they got the guy in the code 1
3
- ommittee outside the plant to agree with them.
They came 4
to the meeting and said ha, ha, we've got people that 5
mgree with us on the outside, what have you got?
6 And we said bullshit.
And the guy -- we 7
sctually ended up -- it was so close to the borderline i
8 that we actually ended up with the differing professional
)
i l
9 opinion winning that.
And they decided they would change 10 out the pipe.
Because one thing we got was different 11 management and engineering too that shuffled that right 12 out.
I i
13 That was Tim Martin's technical conceit.
Tim i
14 was wrong.
He hit the nail right on the head.
These guys 15 could take and sharpen their pencils to a point where you ould be just over the safety margin and it's acceptable.
16 c
17
' hat isn't acceptable to me.
' chat's just playing with the 18 t>ook s.
19 MR. HANNAN:
You referred to Tim Martin.
Who 4
20 tre you speaking of?
21 THE WITNESS:
The NRC guy.
The NRC fellow 22
- t. hat came and talked to us.
He -- we had a tape from Tim.
23 I n fact, he talked to us right out here in the simulator.
24 J nd one of the things he said was that we were technically
- onceited.
He was absolutely correct.
We could paper 25 g
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j 26
)
I work anything to death.
(
i 2
MR. HANNAN:
And so your experience with this
)
3
- onfrontational differing professional opinion was you 4
dere able to prevail on the side of the --
5 THE WITNESS:
Concernee.
6 MR. HANNAN:
-- concernee?
7 THE WITNESS:
Yeah, it was a problem with the 8
- oncernee.
He did not -- he did not want it to be a 9
.1uclear concern.
He could have well made it one.
But we 10 followed up with him and we stayed in touch with him.
11 When he had a meeting, we went with him to the meeting.
12 And eventually we came to the understanding that, you 13 know, this just isn't right what we're doing here.
14 We're falling into the technical conceited 15 area.
And the program now is to change out the pipe.
Now 16 ue're going to see if we do it.
17 MR. HANNAN:
So from your perspective, lthough you didn't exercise the NSCP, you were able to 18 a
chieve a satisfactory resolution?
That begs the question 19 n
f did anyone learn from this from the standpoint of 20 o
21 correcting the technical conceit issue?
22 THE WITNESS:
My gut feeling?
And that's --
23 because I'm not in the management, I can't hold these guys 24 up and shake them, some don't learn.
(
25 MR. HANNAN:
What do you think is being done -
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- or if anything to get after that particular issue?
k 2
THE WITNESS:
This specific issue?
3 MR. HANNAN:
No, --
4 THE WITNESS:
Oh, that issue in itself?
,y 5
?
MR. HANNAN:
The technical conceit issue in 6
general.
4 7
THE WITNESS:
Training.
I know there's been 8
quite a bit of training put out for the managers to try to 9
groom them on listening and paying more attention.
I 10 think in some cases it's had a good effect.
We've still 11 got soldiers out there, you know, from the old days.
A 12 soldier will do what he's told to do from the top.
13 There's still some there.
14 MR. MOHRWINKEL:
You mentioned at the 15 beginning you get a lot of personnel related issues.
Who 16
.s the human resources director here?
17 THE WITNESS:
Right now we've got a new one.
18 Ginger James is running it now.
She came down from 19 Derlin.
She had always been in Berlin and now she's down 20 here on the site.
And I can't remember the young lady's ame that was in there before, but she's off doing 21 n
22 comething else.
23 MR. MOKRWINKEL:
We haven't heard this Ginger 24
- 'ames.
That's a new name to us.
(
25 THE WITNESS:
Yeah.
l NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W (202) 2344433 WASHINGTON D C. 20005 (202) 234 4433
28 1
MR. MOHRWINKEL:
It was Grodzack (sic) or 2
something?
3 THE WITNESS:
This is a person right here on 4
site, HR.
Marie Stankowski is another one who works down 5
there.
She's been there a while.
Now it could be a 6
different group you're thinking of.
7 MR. MOHRWINKEL:
Possibly.
What do you think 8
the employees think about the human resources management?
9 THE WITNESS:
They don't trust human 10 resources.
They kind of feel the same way about human 11 resources as they did about any other program that gets 12 implemented, that it's just another extension of 13
- nanagement.
I personally don't trust human resources.
(
I 14 (ou know, this is -- because I came from the field and I 15
.cnew -- no sense going there because it's just -- you 16
- cnow, everything you say is going to go right back to the 17 top anyhow, so -- we'.re working with human resources, the 18 NSCP -- nuclear concerns group is working with them to try 19 to show them, you know, how they can improve and become 20 more personal.
21 And you know, show more interest in the 22 people.
We're so group oriented, you know.
We do it this 23 way and we're structured to do this and we can't possibly 24 budge from that.
So they're getting a lesson.
They're
(
25 earning.
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^
k.
1 MR. MORRWINKEL:
Do you think they're 2
improving?
3 THE WITNESS:
Just getting started.
Changing 4
aut one person like that I think helps.
5 MR. MOHRWINKEL:
Also we were told -- John, do 6
(ou recall ths -- I have it wrong.
He's going to have it trong in the record, but it was something like Grodzack 7
8 sic) -- and I believe she was a lawyer.
It was a woman sho was a lawyer.
9 i
10 THE WITNESS:
I'll think of it.
I don't think she's a lawyer.
11 12 MR. MOHRWINKEL:
We can't come up with it, 13 iso --
14 THE WITNESS:
I can't pull it out right now.
15 MR. MOMRWINKEL:
Okay, I can't remember the
' 16 exact name either.
17 THE WITNESS:
I'll bump into it.
18 MR. MOHRWINKEL:
But this Ginger James is a 19 name we haven't heard before so that's why I was kind of 20 curious and asked a couple of questions about --
j 21 THE WITNESS:
Yeah, Ginger just got started 22 down here.
She's willing to listen.
I think she'll do 1
\\
23 well.
It's a new light, you know.
We've got to give it a 24 chance.
25 MR. HANNAN:
Are you familiar with the so
(
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- alled Mike Quinn report --
.k 2
THE WITNESS:
No.
3 MR. HANNAN:
-- on the NSCP that was issued in 4
Tanuary?
5 THE WITNESS:
Oh, wait a minute.
l 6
MR. MOHRWINKEL:
Quinn.
I 7
THE WITNESS:
Quinn?
Oh, yeah.
Oh, sure, 8
- hat was the one from ACR 7007?
Was that that one?
l 9
MR. HANNAN:
This was the report that was 4
10 Iritten -- self evaluation on NSCP.
11 THE WITNESS:
Yeah, yeah, I did take a look at 12
- hat.
13 MR. HANNAN:
Did you have any involvement in I
14 hat report -- in the creation of it?
j 15 THE WITNESS:
No.
16 MR. HANNAN:
Have you gotten involved in the ftermath in terms of implementing any of the corrective 17 t
1 ctions that were fall out?
18 19 THE WITNESS:
Not to my knowledge.
I'm just 20
= n the field.
21 MR. MO WINKEL:
Have you heard through the 24
(
office grapevine, if you will, that 22 23 nything has been done in terms of follow up to the Quinn eport?
24
(
25 THE WITNESS:
I think they've got a list of NEAL R. GROSS CoVRT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ($ LAND AVENUE, N W.
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1
.:hanges that they're making.
I'm not -- can't grab them
~
right off, but I think there's a list of changes.
There 2
3 idas a number of issues that they said needed addressed, 4
.ind I believe they're addressing those.
5 MR. MORRWINKEL:
But you don't have any direct 6
Lnput yourself in accomplishing those?
7 THE WITNESS:
Not to my knowledge that I can 1
1 8
Temember.
l 9
MR. MOHRWINKEL:
You touched upon lawyers
\\
j 10 being kind of overly involved.
]
)
11 THE WITNESS:
That's a perspective that I 12 picked up since I've been in nuclear concerns area.
I can 13 g
- I get -- I hear more because more people will talk to i
14 ne and that wouldn't have normally, and they talk more j
15 about the lawyers being around.
So my observation is i
16 they're probably too much around.
j l
17 MR. MONRWINKEL:
Okay, you have a shorter 18 frame of reference because you've only been in this l
19 position you have now since September, but do you see that hanging even these nine months or so that you've been in 20 c
21 the job?
Do you see they're keeping more legal 22 involvement?
23 THE WITNESS:
I didn't really know that they 24 were as heavily involved as they are.
And so I haven't j
25 reen a lot of change.
I don't know how I really would.
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It's just what I hear about.
2 MR. MOHRWINKEL:
Have you had any dealings 3
personally in your job in the ECP office with attorneys?
4 THE WITNESS:
Not attorneys per se.
I did --
5 there was -- I'm trying to think of that woman's name.
6
['m not sure if she's an attorney or not, and I can't 7
remember it.
She was working on this issue with the s
personnel issue -- was doing some in house investigations.
9 But I don't think she was a lawyer.
10 MR. MOHRWINKEL:
What personnel issue are you 11 ualking about?
12 THE WITNESS:
This was an issue where I was 13 porking with a person that had problems-with a manager.
14 MR. MOHRWINKEL:
Oh, oh, okay.
A specific 15 personnel issue?
16 THE WITNESS:
Yeah.
And there was a woman, 17 I nd I can't remember her name --
18 MR. MONRWINKEL:
But she was an NU employee 19 l ike a human resources person?
20 THE WITNESS:
Yeah, but up further.
I'm not 21 aure.
Yeah, come out of human resources somewhere.
I 22 don't -- I thought she was a lawyer, but she may not be.
23 MR. MOKRWINKEL:
Okay, so you really haven't -
l in other words, I guess the essence of my question is l
24
~
(
25 pou haven't presented concerns that you've heard on the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRISERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVEVUE. N W.
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ahop floor and then been approached by a lawyer for the
('
2 company wanting to talk to you about that -- it hasn't 3
happened?
4 THE WITNESS:
No, they wouldn't do that.
5 They're not that -- they wouldn't -- that wouldn't work 6
with me, I'll tell you what.
I wouldn't be too happy with 7
chat.
8 MR. MOHRWINKEL:
We only ask the questions.
9 THE WITNESS:
Oh, no; that's okay.
10 MR. HUEY:
Do you have any insight into --
11 let's see.
The procedure for implementing the nuclear 12 nafety concerns program defines the scope of the program 4
13 as being restricted to employees' concerns that involve a riolation of NRC regulations or company procedures or 14 15 policy.
16 It sounds like you're involved at a much lower 17
.evel than that, you know, employee / personnel concerns and 18 what not.
Do you have any insights into why the program l
19 as defined in the nuclear safety concerns procedure is 20 nuch more narrow than the way it seems to be being 21
.mplemented?
Have you gotten any specific guidance --
1 22 THE WITNESS:
I am not absolutely sure, but I 23 think we expanded that somewhere in writing.
I can't 24 remember right off hand, but I think that's been expanded.
25 Because we are taking, you know, all issues.
And I can't 4
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remember if it was expanded by one of the directors or how 2
.t got expanded, but since I've been there, we've been j
3 taking everything.
4 In fact, even when I was a peer, I used to 5
Sake stuff and try to get it over to Larry.
6 MR. HUEY:
Okay.
7 MR. MOHRWINKEL:
Let me go back to a very pecific example and get your reaction to this.
I'm going l
8 a
9 to mention to you the name of an alleger who has given us 10 permission to do so.
It will be no secret to you because 11 he also invited Larry to sit in during his interview last 12 week.
But I want to tell you the story tha 13 uho is that person, told us and see what your reaction is 1
(
1 14 to it.
15 He said that at one point in time -- and I i
fon't remember the time frame, but I think it was 16 4
17 relatively recently -- he' called the secretary to both Mr.
18 Husch and Mr. Fox and identified himself.
And according 19 to him, was very polite and told them who he was and said, 20 you know, I'm a concerned employee and I work out in the 21 nhop floor and I'm pretty well connected and know what's 22 yoing on out here.
23 And Mr. Fox and/or Mr. Busch, you're always 24 naying you want to hear from employees and employees are
(
25 "ery important to us, I believe in my position I could NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W.
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1 35 1
give these two gentlemen some input into what's really i
2 going on on the shop floor to try and improve i
munication and improve the working environment and so 3
com 2
4 on.
5 And I'd like to see if they would put me on 6
' heir calendar and meet with me.
And according to G.4b 7
1 an hour or so later he gets a call from a l
8
. Lawyer -- he wasn't sure if it was a company lawyer or a l
9 contract lawyer who said if you don't stop calling those 10
<;wo guys, we're going to sue you for harassment.
11 And of course, response was if you want l
12
<:o file suit against me for calling the secretary of the
[
13
<:wo senior company officials during the normal course of 14 business and offering to make myself available to be a 15 problem solver, then you be my guest and go ahead and sue 16 ne.
And he never heard anything about it again.
17 Do you think that sounds like something that 18 night have happened in terms of this overly legalistic g(
19 alpproach and the fear of 20 approaching them that they would threaten him with a l
21
- .awsuit?
22 THE WITNESS:
Well, that's the first I ever 23 heard of that.
But boy, I would think that would be 24 pretty foolish for us to do something like that or even 25 have a lawyer do that.
Can't say year or nea on whether NEAL R. GROSS l
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or not it would have happened or did happen.
But it 2
doesn't sound like what we'd do.
3 MR. MOHRWINKEL:
Okay, thanks.
4 MR. HANNAN:
You mentioned human resources a l
5 moment ago being a corporate entity that is -- you're 6
trying to bring into the fold, so to speak, to help with 7
She program to improve performance in the nuclear area.
8 Can you clarify just exactly what -- how you expect to 9
gain their participation and their support and their help?
10 THE WITNESS:
Maybe I misstated -- what we're 11 arying to do is get human resources to be more human.
In 12 other words, when they deal with people, deal with them 13 and treat them like -- you know, like they'd like to be
(
14 treated.
In other words, they're so much more of an arm 15 of the wall right now than they are actually employees 16 helping the employee.
17 It wasn't to get them to help nuclear concerns 18 program.
Is that we were trying to help them become more 19 human.
20 MR. HANNAN:
Well, I guess I heard you say 21 that, but I interpreted it the way I fed it back to you.
22 hnd now I'm ev,en more surprised that -- it just doesn't 23 cound consistent with my expectation.
I mean, I would xpect human resources people to already be, you know, the 24 e
(
25 nource of how to treat people and be humane and so forth.
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l 37 1
And yet you obviously think otherwise.
l 2
THE WITNESS:
Well, you've got to remember, I f
3 come from where I come from, maintenance and all those 4
areas.
And when the people deal out of those departments 4
5 with the human resources, they usually ran into road j
i 6
blocks where it was a no win situation.
The supervisor 7
would be right and they'd be right.
And it was never j.
"8 well, the employee knows he's right or feels he's right, 9
and he's never vindicated for it.
i 10 So this is -- over the years, people have 11 atayed -- would stay away from human resources where it's i
j 12 a valuable resource if people would go there and use it --
4 13 really use it.
And if they were receptive, it would work 14 well.
It would help.
It would help to get the trust back 15 Lnto the whole system.
16 Does that --
]
17 MR. HANNAN:
I understand.
)
18 THE WITNESS:
That's something Larry and I 1
19 were working on.
We discussed that a lot.
I k
20 MR. HANNAN:
Okay.
I have one other thread I 21 wanted to pull with you.
How do you view your role being 22 offective for that individual that's out there that's on 23 the borderline of becoming a true whistleblower, someone 24 who has been frustrated, someone who has not been able to
(
25 achieve resolution of their concerns using th,e system --
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38 1
the processes that are available and one more occurrence
(
2 Ls going to trip them up in the line.
3 It's just -- they're going to go off the deep 4
end in terms of becoming a "whistleblower."
How are you 5
going to be in a position to prevent that from happening 6
Ln the future?
7 THE WITNESS:
You almost can't.
If somebody 8
feels that deep seated about it and they've already made a 1ecision and they want to make an issue out of it 9
10 outside --
11 MR. HUEY:
Well, let's get back to -- I mean, 12 that's, I think, John's -- sort of rephrase what we were 13 malking about earlier is how do you convince this employee 14 who is just totally frustrated with his own management 15 chain, he's already been the route of pushing it all the 16 way up to the top -- his division manager.
You know, 17 everybody that's technically knowledgeable of what he's 18 concerned about has reviewed it and passed judgement, and 19
- rou're the last opportunity for salvaging this guy's use 20 of in house program.
21 I mean, what, if anything, can you say -- what 22 would you say to this fellow?
Okay, help convince him to 23
.et the -- let NSCP take a last swing at resolving his 24 concern?
(
25 THE WITNESS:
First of all, I didn't know
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4 39 1
about it.
But if I did know about it, I'd have to show
'(
2 anough energy and interest in it to get his attention.
3 rake the issue, get right back to the office with Larry 4
and get something going on it.
You almost -- it almost 5
has to -- it has to be very fast.
You have to --
+
6 aometimes if I pick up on something I might work on it l
7 Shree days straight, you know, and pick up on something i
8 and just go around and gather ACR's or whatever -- gather j
1 j
9 the data form to do the looking and things.
j 10 But --
l 11 MR. HUEY:
Well, how can you convince him that 12 he can -- through some sort of an independent --
13 THE WITNESS:
You're not going to convince j
j 14 anybody.
It's -- this has been going on for many, many, i
15 nany years.
It started in about 1985.
And now here we i
16 are ten years later, it's -- some people are not I
17 convinceable.
i l
18 MR. HUEY:
Well, what capabilities aside from j
i onvincing me is this concerned employee just -- what is 19 c
j-20 the answer to the question of what alternatives are there 21 uithin the company to do a technical evaluation outside of i
j 22 the technical discipline -- is there any recourse for i
23 getting a totally independent review of something?
l
]
24 THE WITNESS:
I'm not sure.
Being the bearer
(
25 of information, I don't know about that.
t i
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRSERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W.
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+
3 40 1
MR. HUEY:
Okay.
2 MR. MOHRWINKEL:
Would it sort of depend on 3
uhe kind of concern it was?
I mean, --
i 4
THE WITNESS:
Yeah.
5 MR. MORRWINKEL:
-- very generic, if it was a 6
nuclear engineering concern, you can find 100 nuclear 7
engineers here and ask one of them to come in and take a 8
look at the issue for the ECP.
9 THE WITNESS:
Well, that's what -- basically
?
10 uhat Mike Brown would be involved in.
He's going to be
}
11 our handy link to this.
You know, a great asset.
l 12 MR. MONRWINKEL:
But if you have a one of a g
kind job and a one of a kind problem, then it's going to 13 i
14 l>e hard to find an -- unless you go to get a consultant, I 15 quess, is a possibility.
4 16 THE WITNESS:
I don't want to leave you with 17 the idea that it wouldn't' be taken care of though.
I 18 guess a little bit of your question -- a little bit of 19 pour wording on the question is eluding me.
I d
20 MR. HUEY:
Okay.
21 THE WITNESS:
If you were concerned and you ade contact with me, I'll do everything in my power to 22 n
a 23 nake sure that I can do something for you.
I have never a
24 run into anybody that was in that mode.
I've talked to
(
25 these people after they've already blown whistles, okay, 1
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41 1
and that's a loss -- you can't do much there.
(
i l
2 But if they have another issue, of course we 3
can try to deal with it.
That's kind of new ground.
1 4
MR. HANNAN:
I guess I -- it's a two part 5
question.
You've answered one part of it.
The other part 6
though you seem to be struggling with, and that is what 7
can you offer them in terms of assurance that they're 8
yoing to get an independent technical assessment if it --
9 you know, for a technical concern and not just have the 10 name old people looking at it again because they know what 11 the answer's going to be from that.
12 Is there some other method of -- or vehicle 13 available to bring in a third party kind of a review of 14 the technical issue to assure that it gets valid -- a 15 ualidated evaluation and a determination can be made on 16 the merits of the case?
17 THE WITNESS:
Up until the Mike Brown time, 18 there was somebody there, but I wasn't involved in that.
]
19 Tf I brought the issue forward and put enough pressure on 20 it, it went somewhere.
It would get reviewed.
I don't --
21 I think the Mike Brown thing is coing to be much -- a 22 different approach to it.
23 MR. HANNAN:
What size staff does he have?
24 THE WITNESS:
He's just building it.,
They're 25 gust building it.
This is all new.
That's the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W.
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e 42 l.
1 oversight --
- (
4 2
MR. MOHRWINKEL:
Do you have an idea?
3 THE WITNESS:
But I wouldn't have a place personally to take -- you know, go over to an engineer and 4
5 any here, take a look at this.
I would bring it back to i
j 6
Larry and Larry would get on the phone and they'd get I
I 7
their thing going and they'd work it out.
f' 8
MR. MOHRWINKEL:
But I think the essence of 1
i 9
the question the three of us are kind of struggling to 10 articulate is -- and John just said several people have
{
11 naid if I go to the employee concerns program, they're j
12 going to take the problem back to my supervision because J
1 13 those are the people who are responsible for it.
- I 14 And even if I don't care that I'm identified t
i 15 because if I have enough guts to raise the issue, I really
}
16 don't care that I'm identified, so that's not the issue.
l 17 T 'm just concerned I'm not getting an independent review 18 because the same guys who turned me down are going to turn 19 ne down a second time.
20 THE WITNESS:
Yeah, that may have happened in 21 I;he past.
22 MR. MOHRWINKEL:
If somehow in my hypothetical 23 oxample the 100 nuclear engineers -- Larry can call one of 24 t;he other 99 in to look at the issue.
If you could more l
25
- >r less " guarantee" and independent review, it seems to me NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRISERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.
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43
!(
that it would give your employee concerns program more 1
l 2
credibility to say okay, I've gone up two lines in my i
3 ilirect supervisory chain, but it's a nuclear engineering Issue and there's a hell of a lot of nuclear engineers 4
5 here; I want to go to Jim and Jim's going to go to Larry, 1,
6 and I want to make sure that one of these other chains of I-7 command would have other nuclear engineers but would be
+
ble to look at my technical issue would do so.
8 a
9 And I guess I'm just trying to get you to 10 answer --
11 THE WITNESS:
I think that was a weakness in 12 I;he past.
Okay, because remember what I told you about 13 I;he fellow with the pipe -- the differing professional 14 1;hink type deal where he didn't want to make it a concern 15 t>ut he could have?
That was an instance where it kept 16 poing back to the same people.
Okay, but I believe now hen Mike Brown builds his field over here, I think that 17 c
18
- t. hat's going to be available.
O 19 That's my understanding.
So that's going to 20'
- e the addition.
But I did go through that with the 21 2ellow with the pipe.
It kept going back to these same 22
- eople that kept doing the analyzing and then they'd look t it again and they'd sharpen their pencils.
We didn't 23 i
24 inceept that.
25 MR. MOHRWINKEL:
Why didn't Chatfield take NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D C 20005 (202) 234-1433
44 1
that pipe concern to some other pipe guy?
2 THE WITNESS:
I don't know.
3 MR. MOHRWINKEL:
Did you ever suggest it to 4
Larry?
Say look, we're going in circles with this pipe 5-question, let's bring in another pipe expert?
6 THE WITNESS:
Did I?
No, I don't think so.
7 We talk about a ton of things, but I don't remember 8
personally saying we should go to another --
9 MR. HANNAN:
But how did it finally get 10 resolved?
11 THE WITNESS:
We decided that their management 12 wasn't being conservative enough and the new management 13 said no, we're going to fix it.
It was a conservative 14 call.
They could have legally bought it off is what my 15 understanding was.
16 MR. HANNAN:
So you didn't bring in a third 17 party, a consultant?
18 THE WITNESS:
Well, these people did.
They 19 dent out and got Reedy, the code guy, to loox at it.
And 20 he said it was fine.
And he still didn't like that, so we 21 dent and -- went as far as we could.
And what it was was 22 it was so-close to the line that it wasn't really 23
- onservative.
24 It wasn't really that conservative.
So they i
25 tre going to replace it.
But they really could have said NEAL R. GFM)SS (X)URT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRSERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W.
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^
1 it's legal.
This is what we play with.
This is how --
. (
j 2
you know, but I work with this guy a lot.
Went to the 3
meetings with him and everything.
J g
4 MR. HANNAN:
But I think the point we're 5
making here or trying to stress is they brought in their k
6 consultant.
There doesn't seem to be a consultant or a
?,
7 third party available to the NSCP --
j 8
THE WITNESS:
Oh, I don't think --
9 MR. HANNAN:
-- to counter.
10 THE WITNESS:
I don't know that there was at 1
11 the time.
12 MR. HANNAN:
At that time.
But now you're i
13 saying that will eventually be available through the
(
)
14 nuclear oversight function and Mike Brown?
I 15 THE WITNESS:
That's my perception of it is k
j 16 that we'll be able to go there and get that.
17 MR. MORRWINKEL:
This has been a good i
18 discussion.
We might want to follow up on some of this I
19 dith Larry tomorrow.
Let me ask you one more thing.
At l
20 the beginning of this when you identified your experience
{
21 and stuff, I think you said you're the top grade of the t
i 22 technician series here?
l 23 THE WITNESS:
Yeah.
24 MR. MOHRWINKEL:
What's your next career move?
(
25
[n other words --
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1 J
46 l 'k 1
THE WITNESS:
Career?
I 2
MR. MORRWINKEL:
Yeah.
Are you going to be j
3 rewarded in some way in the employee concerns program?
4 Will you be changed in your series or whatever your 5
classification system is here?
i 6
THE WITNESS:
Yeah, I think they are going to 7
shift it over to salary which really doesn't make me that I
8 happy because you tend to more associate salary with j
9 management, and I think that's a negative.
But I don't i
10 have any control over how they -- that's all done through 1
11 KR and the business -- the way they run their business.
I 12 have no control over that.
13 I think it should stay hourly.
3 14 MR. MOHRWINKEL:
And you would be happy if you 15 stayed at the top grade for --
16 THE WITNESS:
It's fine.
Yeah, I'm not really 17 ~
doing this for the no.ney.'
This is not a --
18 MR. MOKRWINKEL:
I'm sorry, go ahead.
19 THE WITNESS:
You know, it's not really a 20 noney thing.
I don't get a lot of overtime anymore or 21 anything like that.
I used to get a lot of overtime.
I 22 decided that I wasn't going to let this stuff work this 23 vay and I wanted to help to fix it.
It's not -- you know, 24 you want to lose a night's sleep once in a while?
I suppose you guys do.
25 i
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- a I
i 47 1
But you've got somebody that's got a problem
{
2 and keeps you up all night trying to, you know, work it l
3 over in~your head and you -- where can you go and how can 4
you get thi's done and -- it's a busy thing.
5 MR. MOHRWINKEL:
So you --
l 6
THE WITNESS:
It's not the money.
i j
7 MR. MOHRWINKEL:
Yeah, you enjoy what you're 8
doing --
4 l
9 THE WITNESS:
Well, yeah.
10 MR. MOHRWINKEL:
-- in a professional 4
j 11 satisfaction sense?
12 THE WITNESS:
It's more I get a satisfaction 1J out of being help to the little guy.
Somebody who really 14 needs it.
I can get out there and work with them and then 1
l 15 they can have the confidence that I will.
But there's no 16 rewards.
i 17 MR. HANNAN:
Sounds like there would be a 18 distance in -- if you get shifted from hourly to salary.
t j
19 THE WITNESS:
To me -- I mentioned that.
You 20 know, I think hourly is -- speaks better for the position.
21 3f course, maybe there's something I don't understand.
22 MR. HANNAN:
Anything else?
Okay, Jim, I want 4
- 1 23 bo thank you for spending the time with us.
It's been 24 very constructive.
Appreciate your being frank and i
- j. (
25 straightforward.
I'll give you this document.
This 4
i NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W.
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~
{>
I 40 1
describes how we're going to handle your transcript.
)(
2 And if you indicate an interest in reviewing 3
it for accuracy, we'll have an appointment made through 4
our transcript custodian when we receive it.
And you can 5
have a chance to go over it and make any comments or 6
clarifications on errata sheets that will be provided for 7
that purpose.
Before we close out, do you have anything 8
else you want to say that we forgot to ask or didn't --
9 you felt that you were cut off prematurely?
10 THE WITNESS:
Just in the respect to what I 11 was speaking on Tim Martin and the technical conceit.
I 12 think -- I feel that that is starting to subside.
My --
i 13 what I was trying to say was that Tim was right.
There j
f 14 was a problem with that and they weren't dealing with it.
15 And I'm a little bit upset that he's not working here 16 anymore.
17 I think he was the rioht guy for the job.
I 18 don't know why he got shifted, but --
19 MR. HUEY:
You're talking about the NRC --
20 THE WITNESS:
Yeah, yeah.
21 MR. HUEY:
He just moved on to bigger and 22
.3etter --
23 THE WITNESS:
I suppose you can do that.
But 24 you know, you get guys like that that do the right thing j[
25
.snd they point the right finger.
I don't know that i
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49 1
anybcdy could have caught that spent fuel pool issue.
I k
2 really don't.
We had good inspectors here.
We had some 3
Pad inspectors here.
Guys like f llow 4
come in here and he didn't really know what the hell was 5
going on.
6 But he was on Unit 1.
So how is he svar going 7
to find anything coming in off the street?
And this is
~8 all, you know, just my perception.
Doug Dempsey, he did a 9
hell of a joh.
Any time I had a question of Doug, he'd 10 always ansvar up, go look it out and dig at it.
I just 11 feel that this whole thing shouldn't had to happen.
12 And there was no indicator to push you guys 13 into a spent fuel pool deal.
Sometimes they aren't 14 there -- the key indicators aren't there.
So, you know, 15 just my perception.
16 MR. HANNAN:
Okay, well I appreciate the 17 chance to talk with you.
And it's approximately 2:00 now.
18 Re'll conclude the interview at this time.
19 Thank you.
20 (Whereupon, the interview was concluded at 21 2:02 p.m.)
22 23 24 4
(
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- - -. _. - -.. _ ~ - - - -
4
! (-
CERTIFICATE This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the United States Nuclear l
Regulatory Commission in the matter of:
Name of Proceeding:
Interview of James Tyrol l
Docket Number:
n/a 1
Place of Proceeding:
Waterford, CT I
were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission taken by me and, thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under the direction of the court reporting company, and that the transcript is a true and accurate record of the foregoing proc edings.
'34\\hh Chris Baker official Reporter I
Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.
i 1
i i
l NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVENUE NW (202) 234 4433 WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433 4
_,