ML20138M792
| ML20138M792 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Millstone  |
| Issue date: | 07/18/1996 |
| From: | NRC (Affiliation Not Assigned) |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20138M747 | List: |
| References | |
| CON-NRC-776 NUDOCS 9702260209 | |
| Download: ML20138M792 (55) | |
Text
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^
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 1
Title:
Interview of Wayne Lanning d
Docket Number:
(not assigned) i Location:
King of Prussia, Pennsylvania Date:
Thursday, July 18,1996 Work Order No.:
NRC-776 Pages 1-50
(:,. >
NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433 9702260209 970225 PDR ADOCK 05000245 T
i o
From:
W Lanning To:
can Date:
10/24/96 1:50pm
Subject:
REVIEW 0F TRANSCRIPT I do not plan to provide you errata sheets concerning the Hannon interview.
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2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
+++++
4 OFFICE OF NUCLEAR REACTOR REGULATION 5
INTERVIEW 6
X 7
IN THE MATTER OF:
8 MILLSTONE REVIEW GROUP 9
ALLEGATIONS & EMPLOYEE CONCERNS Case File No.
10 INTERVIEW OF (not assigned) 11 WAYNE LANNING 12 13
X 14 Thursday, July 18, 1996 15 16 DNMS Conference Room 17 NRC Region 1 Headquarters 18 475 Allendale Road 19 King of Prussia, Pennsylvania 23 21 The above-entitled interview was conducted at 22 5:18 p.m.
23 BEFORE:
24 JOHN HANNON, Team Leader 25 CARL MONRWINKEL, Investigator NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W.
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1 2
1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2
(5:18 p.m.)
3 THE COURT REPORTER:
Raise your right hand, 4
please.
Do you swear or affirm that the testimony you are 5
about to give in this interview shall be the truth, the 6
whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
7 MR. LANNING:
I do.
8 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
Good afternoon.
Today is 9
July 18, 1996.
It is approximately 5:20 p.m.
10 My name is John Hannon, and I am here with Carl Mohrwinkel as part of the NRC review team looking 11 j
into the handling of employee concerns and allegations at 12 l
13 Millstone during the last 10 years.
14 We are talking with Wayne Lanning at the 15 Region 1 Office in King of Prussia, Pennsylvania.
Our 16 purpose in interviewing Wayne this afternoon is to get his 17 views with regard to the NRC process, and particularly how 18 it is being implemented at the Millstone Station.
19 We are on a fact-finding mission to try to 20 discover what the process issues are and develop a factual 21 record we can use to deliberate on and make potential 22 recommendations for corrective actions that could be 23 recommended for both NRC and Northeast Utilities to 24 improve the process for future employee concerns and 25 allegations.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TMANSCNSERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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3 1
Wa cra trcnneribing this intervicw for two 2
reasons.
One, to permit us to concentrate on what we are 3
hearing, and make sure we ask the right questions, and 4
then, second, we want to have a document that we can refer 5
to to make sure we properly consider all of the material 6
we collect.
The accuracy of the transcript is important, 7
so we will offer to you, as we have everyone else, the 8
opportunity to come back later and review it for 9
clarifications and corrections.
And I have a handout I 10 will give you at the end of the interview that will 11 describe the process for that.
12 We should mention that the product will be put i
13 in the PDR, the public document room, at the conclusion of 14 our review effort and with any redaction or removal of 15 privacy-type information.
16 Do you have any questions before we begin?
17 MR. LANNING:
No.
1 18 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
Okay.
Carl, why don't 19 you start with the questions?
20 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
Wayne, could you 21 just briefly run through your educational background and 22 your professional work experience that brought you to this 23 point in your career today?
24 MR. LANNING:
All right.
Education-wise, I 25 have a Bachelor of Science from N.C. State'.
I have a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCf40 ERB 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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4 1
Mnoter'o of Engin3Oring-from th3 Univaroity of Alcbams.
I j
did a year of study at the Karman Institute, Belgium.
2 Additional graduate courses at Catholic University.
3 4
Work history, I came to the NRC in '72, maybe-5
'73, Reactor Sy' stems Branch.
Have been in various NRC i
'6 offices during that period of time, NRR, AEOD, Standards, 7
almost all of the offices I guess except NMSS.
I came to the region in '91 as the Deputy of Reactor Safety, and I 8
i 9
was assigned Deputy, Reactor Projects, and currently I am 10 assigned as Director of Millstone oversight Team.
11 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
And as Director of 12 Millstone Oversight Team, what do you do on a daily basis?
13 What are your responsibilities there?
14 MR. LANNING:
I am responsible for overseeing l
i ~
15 all inspection activities concerning Millstone.
And, in 16 addition, I sort of coordinate all activities that go on J
I 17 at Millstone and report directly to Jim Taylor and Tim 1
18 Martin.
0
'3 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
We provided you a 20 list of what we viewed as our first cut at the nine key il j
21 NRC process issues, and we provided that to you for you to l
22 have in front of you as we speak.
We'll try and go 23 through many of these.
There may be one or two of them.
24 that aren't that relevant to your role.
.i 25 The second one there, though, has to do with i'
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5 I
1 coma H&I violations.
And now thct you'ra et Millotono you 2
are familiar with the climate there.
Let me just read you 3
one of the questions that we had and see what your 4
reaction was to it, and we've discussed this with several I
5 other people as well.
It says, "The NRC issued NU a 6
severity level 2 violation and a $100,000 civil penalty, 7
in May '93, for discrimination against a certain high-i 8
profile concernee.
The NRC does not appear to have responded to NU's vehement disagreement with the violation 9
and penalty, or implemented any effective followup, 10 11 review, or evaluation of licensee corrective actions.
12 In light of NU's subsequent history of 13 continued discriminatory conduct, and NU's continued i
14 vehement disagreement with more recent NRC findings of 15 violations, and the imposition of civil penalties, what do 16 you consicer would have been an appropriate response 17 and/or followup to the original enforcemenc action?"
i 18 What the people I think were getting at was 19 NU's tendency to pay the civil penalty, and at the same 20 time issue a press release saying they have done nothing 21 wrong, and as I'm sure you're aware -- and we've heard 22 from many people, management people at NRC as well as 23 employees at NU, the company seems to say they're going to 24 change things and try and do the right thing in the 25 future, and that they keep falling back into continuing NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS ANQ TRANSCRISERB 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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6 1
pnttorno of b2hevior.
2 The complaint we got where this question is j
3 addressing is a concernee said, "They issue us"
- rather, 4
"They pay the civil penalty.
They issue a press release 5
saying, 'We have done nothing wrong.'
They come to the 6
NRC and say, 'We're trying to change our behavior,'" and 7
then several years later they have gotten a year's long, 8
several years long, discrimination case that they finally 9
are issued a civil penalty for, pay the civil penalty as 10 they just did a month or two ago, issue another press 11 release saying, "We've done nothing wrong."
12 Concernees are aggravated and concerned that 13 NRC isn't taking appropriate action in response to the 14 press releases and in response to their continuing 15 denials, and we wanted to see what your reaction was to 16 that whole scenario.
i 17 MR. LANNING:
All right.
I'm not sure of who 18 the slleger was in the '93 case.
But if it's who I think i
19 it was, I've got to disagree with the statement that there 20 was no followup action or evaluation of corrective 21 actions.
22 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
Okay.
That 23 statement comes from the alleger whose --
24 MR. LANNING:
Okay.
25 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
-- case it was.
So NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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'l 1
w3'd lika --
2 MR. LANNING:
All right.
3 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
-- you to address 4
that fact.
5 MR. LANNING:
Okay.
It's my recollection that 6
we instituted an inspection to verify the corrective 7
actions that the licensee purported that they were going 1
8 to carry out as part of the response to the violation.
So 9
we did do that.
And if it's the same one I'm talking 10 about, in fact, that was the one that NRR did for us.
I 11 think we provided some inspection help for that.
And we 12 issued the inspection report out of the region, and I 13 modified the cover letter to make it stronger -- a 14 stronger message to the licensee when we issued it.
I 15 So I -- I am pretty confident that we 16 inspected the followup on the corrective actions.
17 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
But I don't think that's 18 the issue.
19 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
That's not what it 20 goes to.
The issue goes to them issue -- NU issuing a 21 press release saying, "We didn't harass and intimidate 22 this person," and then NRC just letting that go.
Isn't 23 that true?
24 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
And even in the letter 25 that they sent to us with the check paying the fine they NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRBERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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8 vchamantly diccgrosd with our snforcsmant cetion.
1 In
~
2 other words, they paid it but -- but said, "We did nothing 3
wrong."
And from our review of the files, the case files 4
on that particular case, we couldn't find any rebuttal to 5
that letter that said they did nothing wrong.
6 MR. LANNING:
I'm thinking.
Let me think 7
about that a second.
So the -- it's not that we didn't 8
follow up on the violation.
)
9 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
Right.
10 MR. LANNING:
It's that the assertion is we 11 should have done more to get them to admit guilt.
Is that is that essentially the assertion I'm dealing with?
12 13 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
Or to have 14 corrective followup on the H&I issue.
15 MR. LANNING:
Well, that's the thing I don't 16 understand.
We did do corrective followup -- corrective 17 action followup by this inspection.
We did do that.
18 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
Okay.
But 19 MR. LANNING:
So you can't -- you cannot force 20 the licensee to admit guilt.
21 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
No.
But you did a 22 corrective action followup on technical issues, if I heard 23 you correctly.
24 MR. LANNING:
No, no.
25 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
No?
Okay.
NEAL R. GROSS count neponrens Ano Twecasens 1323 RHoOE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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MR. LANNING:
No.
2 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
Okay.
Then I 3
MR. LANNING:
No.
4 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
-- misunderstood 5
you.
6 MR. LANNING:
On the -- on the H&I violation 7
that,was issued in this case, the inspector was to go up there and evaluate whether or not they had implemented 8
9 effective corrective actions.
10 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
On H&I.
11 MR. LANNING:
On H&I.
12 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
Okay.
That wasn't 13 clear.
That wasn't 14 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
No, I didn't understand 15 it that way either.
Now I understand.
16 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
Yeah.
17 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
So your view is we did 18 enough, we did all we could do from the policy that we 19 have right now, for enforcement.
20 MR. LANNING:
That's right.
We did follow up 21 on that violation through an inspection.
22 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
Are we following up 23 on this most recent one where they did the same thing?
24 MR. LANNING:
We haven't.
The most recent one 25 is still being appealed.
That's not final yet.
It's the NEAL R. GROSS court REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHoOE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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10 i
sema ona I'm thinking ebout.
Thnt's ctill ongoing, and I 2
I~am proposing that the agency take a stronger position on what NU is doing.in the. area of employee concerns, 3
4 because not only-do we have that instance, we have other' j
l 5
cases where employee concerns has been a problem.
i 6
There has been an internal assessment done, 7
another team effort done by NU.
They just recently i-8 submitted a corrective action plan that -
_to deal with 9
that' -- task force results.
And so, in addition, you know
.10 there has been a history of OI findings.
There's a number 11 of OI cases still ongoing.
So there is a proposal to'have 12 a very senior -- senior. level management meeting with NU, 13 with some specifics to address the overall problem with 14 employee concerns and how NU has handled them.
So that's 15 still to come.
16 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
Is that your 17 proposal, or that's -- that's a senior management of NRC 18 proposal?'
19 MR. LANNING:
Well, it's -- I'm -- I've been 20 pushing on it.
I.mean, I've been an advocate of doing 21 more.
Let me tell you, the DOL decision on one of the 22 cases would normally result in us issuing a chilling 23 effect letter.
Okay.
We have issued numerous chilling 24 effect. letters.
In my opinion, that is not an effective 25 regulatory tool anymore.
We are beyond that with NEAL R. GROSS Cous neromenS AND TMNSCNSSW isas nMoOE ISI.AND AVE., N.W.
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1 North 300t.
And co I have baen advocating -- end, in feet, the Director of OE has written a draft letter proposing 2
]
3 such a -- such a meeting.
4 So we're not there yet.
There is still a lot 5
of investigation ongoing.
But some time we've got to --
6 to draw a bow around all of these issues, because there is 7
going to be a restart issue up there.
And so that's --
8 that's still to come.
9 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
You may know this 10 from talking to the different NU'ers up there.
But the one individual about whom the second civil penalty was 11 12 issued, just the most recent one, he told us in the i
13 transcript that and again, off the top of my head I 14 can't think of the timeframe, but I think it was fairly 15 recently -- that he put in a call, by his own definition, 16 during the normal business day to both Fox and Busch's 17 office and identified himself as who he was and said, 18 19 want to see the company turn around, and I think I've got 20 some good ideas.
21 Busch and Fox are always making announcements 22 to the employees that we are their most valuable asset, 23 and the solutions are going to come from us," etcetera, 24 etcetera.
And he said, "So I told the secretaries I would 25 like to talk to Busch and Fox, and they can call me on the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRISERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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12 phona or I con cchsdulo cn cppointmInt to com3 up and tclk 1
2 to them, give them my idea on how the situation here for 3
employee concerns can be better turned around."
4 And he said within an hour he got a call back 5
from an attorney for NU threatening to sue him for 6
harassing these two individuals.
And, now again, this is 7
a one-sided story.
It could be because there was 8
litigation going on the attorney called, or what have you.
9 But, you know, the individual we're talking about, he said 10 to them, so he says, "I told them that if you want to take 11 such a legal action for a relatively low graded employee 12 calling the two top company officials dur_ng normal 13 business hours, speaking respectfully to their 14 secretaries, making an offer to solve whistleblowing 4
J 15 problems, and being threatened with a lawsuit," he said, j
16 "Please go ahead and sue me."
17 So this is a continuing problem that we have i
18 seen in our interviews.
So, I mean, we're kind of getting 19 off the NRC issues now.
Maybe that's okay, since we're 20 talking about employee concerns and that's one of the 21 things we were going to talk about anyway.
22 But now that you've been up there for six 23 months or so in this senior capacity, what do you think of 24 the climate there, the chilled climate if there is one, if 25 it's getting better, if it's getting worse, and how the i
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- 3 1
NSCP may b3 working, Mr. ChStfield'O involvsm2nt thoC3 2
kinds of things.
What is your view cn those various 3
subjects?
4 MR. LANNING:
I do not think they have done an 5
effectiv'e -- they, in Northeast, have been effective at 6
dealing with employee concerns.
I do not believe that 7
they can convince me today that they have made any 8
progress in their plan to improve communications and be 9
responsive to employee concerns.
10 I am aware of assertions made recently that the employee concern program is slow to document concerns, 11 12 try -- tries to convince the employee that it has been 13 taken care of without the documentation.
I am also told 14 in a separate case where concerned employees have 15 attempted to talk with senior NU management, and there has 16 been no response.
So that's still going on.
{
17 I think there is a general chilling effect by 18 NU on employees.
I think the most recent -- one of the 19 task force reports, Quinn's task force, it says, " Forty 20 percent of the people are afraid to bring their concerns 21 forward to the management" is -- is right on.
i 22 So I know they are in the process of doing a 1
23 more current survey.
I haven't seen the results of that j
24 yet, but that should either confirm that they still have a 25 broad problem, or they have pockets of it, or -- or shed NEAL R. GROSS count neponruns ANo Tmuscasens 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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14 1
-- or et lecct confirm whnt tha Quinn tcck forco ecm2 up 2
with.
3 As far as I know, they have not implemented 4
any corrective actions with regard to the Quinn task 5
force.
That's the document they provided to us.
And so 6
I'm assuming that program is ongoing.
I've not seen any 7
results.
So I don't have any reason to conclude that the 8
atmosphere, culture, at Northeast has improved.
9 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
Okay.
I want to bring us 10 back to the NRC processes if I could.
11 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
But let's just wrap 12 up this employee concerns.
Since we're talking about 13 communications, at least one individual complained about 14 you personally as saying that you were not responsive when 15 they called you to discuss their issues or their concerns.
16 Would you like to say something about that?
17 MR. LANiiING :
I take great effort in trying to 18 be responsive to employee concerns.
When I was informed 19 that this individual had not gotten a return phone call 20 from me, based on a previous discussion, I immediately 21 called him and we talked and closed the loop with him.
22 I -- there are certain allegers at Millstone 23 that I communicated with frequently for the primary 24 purposes of assuring them that we still have their 25 concerns under evaluation, and that -- that we really care NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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15 cbout gotting to tha bottom of tha enfaty iccus.
1 2
I met with several allegers in meetings, one-3 on-one type meetings.
I have encouraged our seniors to --
4 to 94 und.neet with allegers off site, if have to be.
In 5
fact, just recently, I arranged a meeting.
I initially I
6 thought it was a Millstone allegation, but it turned out 7
to be a Haddam Neck allegation.
And so I arranged a 4
8 meeting to -- with the alleger to get his safety concerns.
9 And so I think I have been very responsive, h
10 and that's intende.d to be defensive.
It's -- I know it's l
11 very important.
In fact, part of my -- I think my 12 function at -- at Millstone as Director of the Millstone 13 oversight Team is to try to regain some of the credibility 14 of NRC, and that involves our dealings with allegers, and 15 the timeliness with which we -- we deal with those 16 allegations.
17 So I think I am doing that.
And I think I 18 could show, you know, numerous examples of where I've done 19 that.
20 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
How responsive do 21 you think the residents either are now under your purview 22 or were prior to your arrival at Millstone?
23 MR. LANNING:
I think they are just as 24 responsive now as they were in the past.
I think the way i
25 we operate on site now has changed.
In the past, the NEAL R. GROSS COUM REPoMERS AND TRANSCMSERS 1323 RHOOE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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16 conior felt thnt h3'd ba th3 prim 2ry courca of NRC 1
2 dealings with the allegers, and also the one who directs 4
^
3 the followup /closecut of allegations.
4 I -- we changed that.
We have tried to get the residents more into a mode of taking the allegation, 5
6 and we're handling it out of the regional office.
In 7
order to do that, we assigned an additional project 8
engineer to the branch that has Millstone.
And most of his time is -- is dedicated to inspecting and documenting, 9
10 acknowledging allegations.
11 So I think we are just as responsive.
I think 12 we've got a better control.
I think our timeliness in the 13 acknowledgement letters and dealing with issues has 14 improved, I think, if there's one thing I could probably 15 point to that we have improved our response to allegers.
16 Currently, I think the -- all of the allegations we have 17 on Millstone, I think from a staff perspective that we 18 have done all the actions that we can do.
So we're caught 19 up, so to speak.
And that's certainly unique in 20 comparison to past history.
21 So, you know, the others we can't deal with 22 because they are investigations, OI cases or -- or DOL 23 cases, or whatever.
So I think we have really improved 24 our ability to deal with allegations at Millstone.
25 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
Okay.
Wayne, perhaps I NEAL R. GROSS l
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1 17 1
chould heva mantionzd this scrlisr.
It'o not our intent 2
here to put you on the defensive, and if we came across 3
that way it certainly wasn't meant that way.
So you. don't l
4 need to feel like you have to be defensive.
5 We are trying to get at the process issues.
And even if some of these issues have already been 6
discussed in another forum that might be already available 7
B in the public, you don't have to take your time now to 9
respond.
You could just refer us to where it might exist i
l i
10 already.
i 11 MR. LANNING:
I didn't intend to appear 12 defensive.
That wasn't my --
13 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
All right.
14 MR. LANNING:
-- my nature.
15 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
I wanted to ask you --
16 there were certain folks that gave us the idea that maybe 17 we were part of the problem, maybe even having a negative 18 impact on the licensee's ability to begin resolving their 19 concerns.
And there were a number of questions in that 20 area.
Start with the first one was the -- documenting 21 issues of low safety significance but possible regulatory i
22 significance, without doing anything with them.
In other 23 words, not requiring the licensee to take action.
24 Did you believe that that's the case?
Or 1 25 guess the one that the issue that comes to my mind NEAL R. GROSS court REPORTERS AND TRANSCRISERS 1323 RHoOE ISLANO AVE., N.W.
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18 1
right cwsy would ba tha cpant fusi pool iccun.
Mmyba it 2
had a low safety significance.
It had certainly shown --
been shown to have a high regulatory impact.
Do you have 3
4 any views or thoughts in that -- on that point?
5 MR. LANNING:
I'm a little confused by the 6
question.
See, I would have put the spent fuel pool, the 7
fact that they were offloading the core, contrary to our 8
license, contrary to procedure, improvising cooling, that 9
is safety significant.
Okay?
10 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
But we've already -- we 11 looked at it and we didn't find it to be the case.
We did 12 at least two inspections where no safety significance was 13 identified.
14 MR. LANNING:
Well, still, I personally.
15 believe there is safety significance associated with that.
16 I'd be surprised if, as an agency, we didn't conclude that 17 there is some safety significance associated with the fact 18 that the licensee was doing experiments, not following 19 procedures.
20 It is true we didn't identify the fact that 21 they were doing that contrary to our license.
If that's 22 your question, if your question is did we fail to take 23 action on the spent fuel pool, I think the answer to that 24 is yeah.
But at the same time, we didn't tumult to the 25 fact that it was contrary to what was in the FSAR.
And i
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19 1
tharo'c a number of reasons for thnt.
2 I don't think we need to really get into that, 3
bt.t I don't think that's a good example of where we've documented something of low safety significance but of 4
5 regulatory significance, because I -- I don't think --
6 first off, we just didn't identify the safety significance 7
of the thing.
We didn't identify the regulatory 8
significance of it either, when you come right down to it.
9 We didn't do that.
10 But if there are --
11 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
Well, let me get to l
12 the --
13 MR. LANNING:
-- samples --
14 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
Let me get to the broader f
15 question.
Do you feel that the NU plants are getting such 16 an inordinate level of attention now, particularly 17 Millstone, that from your perspective that it's adversely 18 impacting their ability to -- to get well?
19 MR. LANNING:
Absolutely not.
Absolutely not.
20 I think Millstone being placed on the watch list is the 21 best regulatory action that we have ever taken up there.
that brought to bear additional resources to monitor 22 I
23 the performance of Millstone.
While we do have a lot of 24 inspections ongoing, it is -- it's not the reason that 25 they are slow to develop a process, establish the NEAL R. GROSS CoVRT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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20 1
otructure, for improvam2nt.
Thoco era two -- two scparnto 2
things.
3 And they continue to have performance l
4 deficiencies.
Just this week they had an event at Unit 1 5
involving moving a filter in the spent fuel. pool.
I mean, 6
of all of the areas in Unit 1 for which you'd think a licensee would take extraordinary care of the activities 7
8 ongoing, they didn't.
They ended up violating their work 9
permit and contaminating people.
10 But that's typical, and we still need to have 11 our presence there to make sure that they are making 12 expeditious safety decisions and doing the right things.
13
. INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
Okay.
Let me just
{
14 switch gears maybe to perhaps a more mundane topic, which 15 is the ninth one on our list, which is recordkeeping.
How 16 well do you think Region 1 does, generally speaking, and i
17 secondarily, the folks who are stationed at Millstone, the 18 residents and yourself, at keeping accurate accounting of 19 how much time is spent on allegation followup?
20 MR. LANNING:
I don't know the answer to that.
21 I know generically it's a problem that we don't always 22 record our time accurately with regard to allegation 23 activities.
We have reminded the staff of the need to do 24 that.
I don't know of any cases where we haven't done 25 that.
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21 1
I do know, for exnmplo, for tha residants, a 2
lot of times when they are inspecting technical issues 3
that are allegations, for example, they will end up 4
forgetting that that's not really part of the core per se, 5
even though the activity could be part of the core.
But iti's -- the motivation was really allegation followup, 6
and they should have recorded their time as allegation 7
8 followup.
I do know that's -- that has occurred.
We have 9
sensitized them about the need to make accurate time 10 reporting, because we need that information to really, in 11 my opinion, get additional resources that we need to deal 12 with the problem.
13 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
I'm not clear.
Are 14 you the supervisor now over the residents, all -- all of 15 the residents, including senior --
16 MR. LANNING:
No, I'm not a supervisor of the i
17 residents.
I'm -- I'm -- it's interesting what I'm not.
18 The residents report to the branch chief, which is Jacque 19 Durr.
And Jacque Durr reports to Dick Cooper.
20 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
And you report to
-6 21 whom?
22 MR. LANNING:
And I report to Martin and 4
- 23 Taylor.
24 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
And no individuals 25 really report to you?
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i 22 1
MR. LANNING:
Not directly, not on paper.
1 2
INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
Do you have any 3
input into the performance appraisals on residents while 4
ycu're there?
)
5 MR. LANNING:
Sure.
6 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
One of the things 7
We're concerned about, as you see it on our list of nine, 8
and we've been concerned about it in other aspects in 9
terms of performance of employees of NU, and so on, but 10 it's also an issue with NRC, is performance measures.
And 11 if you have input into the appraisal process for residents 12 and senior residents, I'm just interested how much 13 emphasis do you put on their handling of allegations, i
14 their responsiveness to concernees, in their appraisal as 15 opposed to going out and actually conducting technical 16 inspections from the core of inspections?
17 MR. LANNING:
I think we address it as an 18 element in the standards.
For example, N
n 20 at showed up in 21 his performance appraisal.
So the answer to your question 22 is when warranted, we make appropriate use of the 23 performance appraisal system to -- to note areas for 24 improvement.
25 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
Without being too NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 rho 0E ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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)
l i
i
- specific, i
m 2
3 4
This maybe goes back more to your Region 1 5
days, but it's something we're concerned about, again, in
?
j 6
terms of, let's say, staff sensitivity because we told you 4
{
7 at the beginning we are trying to touch on all of these 1
8 issues and get your input.
What kind of a job do you i
l 9
think we do -- good, bad, or somewhere in the middle --
l
)
10 when we deal with licensee referrals of allegations that 11 come to NRC?
I i
12 MR. LANNING:
I think we do an excellent job j
13 of referring allegations to the licensee for resolution.
j 14 We -- we are very -- in the panel -- I don't need to go l
15 into the process, do I?
i s
j 16 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
No.
l 17 MR. LANNING:
In the panel, we are very i
l 18 sensitive to when we make a recommendation to refer a 1
19 licensee to -- to refer an issue to the licensee, the i
20 identity of the alleger, and the potential for revealing 4
l 21 the identity of the alleger is always of utmost i
i j
22 importance.
There is a number of criteria that we i
23 consider.
i l
24 So, in addition, I think we do it also to send j
25 a message to the licensee, which is probably outside the h
l NEAL R. GROSS CoVRT REPomERS AND TRUSCR8ERS 4
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24 1
proccdure.
But it cartninly puts more of tha burdan on 2
the licensee to solve these issues, which they should have 3
done to start with.
It also relieves us of some of the t
e 4
responsibility to go and do inspections on all of these.
5 You know, we don't need to.
6 So overall, I think it is somewhat -- it's 7
effective.
I think it is -- it does both the NRC good and 8
also serves some benefit to the licensee to refer issues 9
to them for resolution.
10 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
What is your view on the effectiveness of our followup when we get the response 11 12 back from the licensees on referrals?
Some of the 13 concernees from these different questions we have here 14 have expressed a concern that we just accept the 15 licensee's response and forward it on to the concernee.
16 What is your view of that charge?
17 MR. LANNING:
I would say they don't know, f
18 because --
19 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
They who?
20 MR. LANNING:
They -- the allegers -- about 21 followup, because you can't ascertain in an inspection 22 report what -- whether or not the inspector is following 23 up to an allegation or not.
You can't read an inspection 24 report and say, "This issue is an allegation, and we 25 followed up on the allegation and concluded that there is NEAT "4. GROSS court REPoh AS AND TRANSCRISERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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25 1
no safety concern here."
You can't do that.
l 2
So there are -- there are several cases where i
t j
3
- RC follows up, several examples of where NRC followed up
{.
4
- r _ssues we have given to the licensee for resolution.
~
i
'5 And we check that.
It's a random check, it's an audit, 6
like everything else we do. -But we do follow up on issues 1
7 we refer to licensee for how well, who did it,- the i
i i
B rigorousness of the followup.
So we do that.
i 9
TEAM LEADER HANNON:
But it's not documented 10 in the inspection report.
11 MR. LANNING:
It is documented in the 12 inspection report, but there is no identifier on it in the 13 inspection report that says it was an allegation.
i 14' TEAM LEADER HANNON:
Okay.
15.
MR. LANNING:
Okay?
16 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
All right.
Do you 17 want to talk about the --
18 MR. LANNING:
Let me just add one more thing 3
to that.
As part of the closecut of that allegation, for 1
example, that we've inspected in.the inspection report, we 21 will send a copy of that inspection report to the alleger 22 telling him that we have followed up on his concerns, and 23 this is our bottom line.
We have inspected it, and here' j
-24 is.a copy of the inspection report.
25 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
Okay.
But does it close NEAL R. GROSS COUNT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRISERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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26 tha loop cnd ccy you ware satisfied with tha licensee's I
2 response?
Or does it say, "We inspected the area and 4
3 found out that the licensee's response was inadequate, and 4
we -- they -- we made sure they did something in 5
addition"?
Or how does -- how does the person receiving 6
th't understand our position relative to the licensee's a
7 response to the referral?
8 MR. LANNING:
I don't know the answer to that, 9
I don't think.
I'm trying to think back on some of the 10 closecut letters.
I do not recall whether or not we even 11 tell them that we had referred this to the licensee, and 12 then we went back and inspected it.
I don't -- I'd be 13 surprised if we did that.
14 I think our response would be primarily the t
15 resolution of the technical issue or the concern that the 36 individual raised, and not go into how we got there 17 necessarily, other than we closed it and inspected it.
4 18 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
Okay.
The reason I was
)
19 probing that to that level was --'and perhaps this is 20 something we need to talk at a lower level in the l
21 organization about is that we had certain people make 22 assertions that they somehow understood that we just l
23-accepted the licensee's response, without any "we trust 24 but didn't verify it."
25 MR. LANNING:
That's not accurate.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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27 1 e
'l t
TEAM LEADER HANNON:
I undarstand that.
But 2
that's what their perception was, and they felt so upset-3 by that that they took the step of sending us a rebuttal 4
letter explaining why it was wrong for us just to accept i
the licensee's position, and. told us why it was -- why 5
1
\\.
they disagreed with that status and never heard anything 6
/j' 7
about it, never got a response to that rebuttal letter.
4 8
So this maybe predates your experience, but i.
9 because we looked at a very -- a 10-year period of time.
l 1
10 MR. LANNING:
Yeah.
I don't know of any case 11 where an alleger has written back and said, "I disagree 1
12 with what the resolution is," that we didn't go back and 13 close that out with another letter to the licensee -- I 4
14 mean, to the alleger.
i 15 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
Okay.
16 MR. LANNING:
I don't know any cases like 17 that.
j 5
18 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
Okay.
So the only thing 19 that I'm leaving this conversation with is that there is i
20 some uncertainty as to how the person receiving that i
j-21 closeout letter would understand what we did with regard 22 to the licensee's response.
Or even if they would
{
23 understand that the licensee -- it would have referred to 24 the licensee.
25 MR. LANNING:
That's right.
4 l
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28 1
TEAM LEADER HANNON:
Okcy.
All right.
s 2
INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
I think we've 3
covered most of the questions on this list.
4 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
Yes.
5 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
If not with Wayne, 6
then with previous people.
7 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
I wanted to give Wayne, 8
though, an opportunity if he had any comments on the list, 9
if he feels that we are off track or maybe we missed the 10 mark somewhere, I'd like to get his thoughts.
And even if you have some other ideas if the process changes it ought 11 12 to be looked at, or performance indicators that we could 13 be employing.
14 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
And just to clarify 15 it, we said in the beginning and make sure now that you've i
16 given us a lot of -- as a matter of fact, I.think we've l
17 touched on probably seven or eight of these nine issues, 18 easily.
These are the process issues we came up with 19 prior to beginning the interviews with the Region 1 people 20 here on the record these last couple of days.
21 This does not necessarily mean these nine are 22 locked in concrete.
The list may shrink to five.
The 23 list may expand to 12.
We don't know yet.
We still have 24 a few more interviews to do, and we've gotten very good 25 input from the -- I guess we've talked to, what, five NEAL R. GROSS court REPORTERS AND TRANSCRSERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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29 1
psoplo co fer, rsgional p2ople thnt hnva cddraccad thsca 2
and have given the NRC version of these nine items.
So 3
that's where we are.
4 4
So I want to make sure you understand these 5
are not necessarily the items that are going to be our i
6 final conclusions, and I think that's hopefully the 7
message we got across to you and the other people, that 8
these are our first cut or our first
-- cur nearing final 9
draft, if you will, from our first two sets of interviews, 10 allegers and NU.
11 Now, the third set of interviews is with NRC 12 and getting their reaction.
Some of these may disappear; 13 some may be changed.
Just so you know that that's where 14 we're coming from.
15 MR. LANNING:
It would help me if you'd 16 refresh my memory about what it is you are concluding with 17 regard to these issues, such that I can provide you my 18 insight.
19 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
Okay.
First, on the 20 DOL /NRC interface, the --
21 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
We can't really talk 22 about that with him, because of --
23 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
No, I intend to discuss 24 that with Barry Letz tomorrow, so, you know, I feel that 25 would be adequate to deal with that.
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.- ~ __
30 1
MR. LANNING:
All right.
Oksy.
Thnt'e fins.
2 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
That's not really 3
within your purview, I don't think.
4 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
We've also --
5 MR. LANNING:
I have opinions.
6 (Laughter.)
7 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
we have also discussed
)
8 the severity level for the H&I violations.
You have 9
already given us your reaction to that one.
10 MR. LANNING:
That had to do with the 11 followup.
12 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
Right.
13 MR. LANNING:
That's the followup process, not 14
-- not how severe the enforcement action is.
15 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
But the severity per 16 se is going to be discussed with Barry Letz tomorrow.
17 MR. LANNING:
Okay.
18 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
But the followup on 19 that see, some of these overlap.
20 MR. LANNING:
Barry Letz or Holody?
21 TEAM LEADER RANNON:
I'm going to talk to Jim 22 Lieberman about the severity of --
l 23 MR. LANNING:
That's the way to do it.
That's 24 the person you need to --
25 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
And we've also NEAL R. GROSS Count mEpontras AND TRANSCROERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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31 1
talksd to Ed Brker.
2 MR. LANNING:
Okay.
That's good.
3 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
Okay.
Now, on the inspection techniques in the integration, that concerns 4
the -- we touched on it a little bit here -- about how we 5
6 follow up, trust and verify that issue, and how we --
7 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
Allegation referrals 8
to licensees.
9 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
-- how we integrate the 10 inspection findings and get them conveyed back to the 11 individuals.
12 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
What inspection 13 techniques we follow to get to the bottom of allegations, 14 that's in here.
15 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
Another thought that is 16 embedded in that point is, look, we had two or three major 17 team inspections go to Millstone over the last five years 18 to look at this area, and came back with some -- what 19 could be concluded rather rosy pictures, which doesn't now 20 appear to be the case.
Is there something wrong with our 21 inspection tools that would allow us to be -- have the 22 wool pulled over our eyes, so to speak?
23 Are there better inspection techniques that we 24 ought to be trying to develop, so that we don't have these 25 issues fester for five years or 10 years, you know?
Can NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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i
]
32 1
wa gat to it ocrlior?
And that'a part of ths -- what 10 2
underlying that point.
3 MR. LANNING:
Well, I agree that some of these 4
assessments, we have gone and looked at the culture if you 5
will, the way that NU has dealt with employees has 6
generally missed the mark.
They come away pretty much 7
limiting it to " pockets" (quote / unquote) within the NU 8
organization.
9 I think we could serve curselves better by 10 doing a broader interview of people, not only NU current 11 employees, but also making it known to NU employees that 12 the NRC is in the process of doing an inspection to 13 evaluate employee concerns.
And if any NU employee has 14 something that they want to share with the NRC, we ought 15 to be made available and let them come to us and get that.
16 Otherwise, I think we're getting just one-half of the 17 story.
18 So from an inspection technique standpoint, I 19 think we need to -- to broaden our database for getting 20 information when we do those -- more of those generalized 21 assessment inspections.
22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS coVRT REPORTERS AND MANSCRISERS 1323 RHoOE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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l 33 1
(6:00 p.m.)
2 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
Okay.
We touched on the 3
next bullet there, the NRC responsiveness issue, and I i
j 4
thir.k you've given us a fair understanding of your current
}
l 5
position on that.
6 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
It echoes a lot of i
1 7
things.
It covers the phone calls we were talking about.
i 8
It covers the -- what is perceived to be the lack of our i
9 response to the allegations that are referred, the i
10 business of our blindly sending them out or blindly i
{
11 accepting them.
You've addressed that I think very well.
12 Others before you have as well.
13 Staff sensitivity goes to the thing that you 14
-- where you mentioned l
n 44(
15 i
16 the awareness that you want to have your
/
17 inspectors have about how important allegations are, how
)
j 18 we treat them with respect and dignity, those kinds of l
19 things.
That's wrapped up into staff sensitivity.
l 20 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
Corrective action i
{
21 followup -- there may be more you can say here.
We got 22 into that a little bit in the discussion about the i
23 licensee's position, that they are paying the fine but 24 really didn't do anything wrong, and therefore they aren't i
25 going to change any of their practices.
l NEAL R. GROSS 1
court REPORTERS AND 1MANSCRIBERS I
1323 RHoOE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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34 1
MR. LANNING:
I'm not curo thsy ccid thny 2
weren't going to change their practices.
t 3
TEAM LEADER HANNON:
Well, that was what the 4
reality was.
That's what has been proven to be the case, i
because of subsequent H&I issues that have evolved.
5 So 6
the question is, do we take effective corrective action in 7
this area?
Are there not some performance improvements 8
that we could make in here?
9 MR. LANNING:
Well, let me take some liberty 1
10 and rephrase your question a little bit.
I think the i
i 11 question really is, are we ensuring that the licensee
~
12 takes effective corrective actions?
And as I indicated 13 earlier, we had that one inspection by -- I got him out of 14 NRR that went and looked at corrective actions in followup l
15 to -- to a significant violation for H&I.
We've done i
is that.
1 17 But if you -- if you throw in these other 18 types of more generalized assessment that these teams have 19 gone up there the past five years, you referred to earlier 20 as being sort of a testing of the water if you will as to 21 how effective NU has implemented corrective actions, I 22 would agree those inspection assessments, for whatever 23 reason, did not come out with the right answer.
24 And so from that standpoint, from a more 25 global standpoint of looking at the culture and what has NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE., N W.
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35 1
bacn going on et NU with thn23 accaccm nt tstm3, I cgras I
2 with you.
We haven't been very effective at assessing the 3
fact that they have followed up on it.
4 But in terms of following up on allegations, 5
and whether or not the licensee has effected corrective j
6 actions, we do that and we do that both as part of a 7
special team inspection and also as part of our plan and 8
followup to issues.
So we do do that.
i 9
TEAM LEADER HANNON:
Okay.
The performance j
10 measures -- I would ask for your thoughts.
We got some 11 very good input earlier from Dick Cooper on what could be 12 done to monitor our effectiveness in this area more 13 aggressively, and performance indicators, and -- and 14 metrics that we could use.
We're really interested in 15 your thoughts on that.
16 MR. LANNING:
Well, I've put forth a lot of 17 effort to try to improve our tracking system for 18 allegations.
We've made some changes to that to help us 19 better monitor such things as timeliness of the letters, 20 age of allegations.
Have you seen that tracking system?
l 21 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
I -- well, if I had 22 a job with the date where I have -- I don't know if we 23 have it -- we don't have it for this project.
24 MR. LANNING:
Well, I think it's important you 25 see that and what we do with it.
Let me see if I NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCNBUS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
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36 1
brought 2
INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
Well, you're saying 3
also that the implementation of this new allegation 4
management system is going to make this an easier process 5
agency-wide.
6 MR. LANNING:
Yeah, but we -- I've been 7
hear'ing that for years, right?
8 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINK'L:
So have I.
9 (Laughter.)
10 MR. LANNING:
The memorandum is from Bill Kane 11 to division directors, allegation performance indicators.
12 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
What is the date on 13 that one?
14 MR. LANNING:
This is from June.
This just 15 happened to be the cover letter from the June version.
16 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
I have not seen 17 that.
18 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
Could you leave that with 19 us and let us look at it?
20 MR. LANNING:
I'll leave that with you.
Here 21 is one for May.
Yeah, here is the one for May that has 22 the data in it.
And, for example, let's look at 23 Millstone, for example.
That's Branch 6.
This here is 24 the acknowledgement letters, and so this is the allegation 25 number.
That's when we received it, and this is the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCMBERS 1323 RHoOE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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37 1
numbar of dcya that hava elepasd oinca wa hnva not osnt 2
out the acknowledgement letter.
3 And so you can see here that at least monthly 4
I also do it separately off line as part of just 5
general management of the -- of the Millstone activities 6
-- but we check on and make sure we get the 7
acknowledgement letter out.
And so these -- this 8
" drafted" here means that we have provided a draft 9
acknowledgement letter to our allegation coordinator, who 10 signs those out, and we track those.
i 11 We also track allegations that are old.
We 12 track allegations that are within our control, and which 13 ones are assigned to OI, for example.
And --
14 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
These are the old 15 ones on this page?
16 MR. LANNING:
This is more than 140 days.
17 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
Yeah.
18 MR. LANNING:
Yeah.
19 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
Not including OI, 20 though.
I 21 MR. LANNING:
Not including OI.
22 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
So these are the 23 ones that are within your purview --
24 MR. LANNING:
Right.
25 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
-- that happened to NEAL R. GROSS CoVRT REPoMERS AND TRANSCMSERS 1323 rho 0E ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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ba late.
2 MR. LANNING:
Right.
3 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
Okay.
4 MR. LANNING:
Exactly.
So this one here, you 5
know, we would follow -- I -- we use this as a tickler to g
6 figure out why that's -- that's so old, why is that not 7
closed out.
8 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
Al1 right.
4 9
MR. LANNING:
And that turns out for that 10 particular one, ' think it turns out to be a part of the 11 2.206 case that was ongoing.
12 But there's a number of useful management 13 indicators in this report, and -- and I guess I claim some 14 credit for getting some of these indicators.
And this has 15 been an evolving document, and so we've come a long way in 16 trying to -- to keep track of how we're dealing with 17 allegations and the timeliness of them, and so forth and 18 so on, the backlog.
19 In addition, because separate from this 20 report, and maybe you need to talk to -- to Jacque Durr 21 about this, we have a separate detailed tracking system 22 within the branch, where we've got all allegations and 23 where they stand, what the issues are.
What you get in an 24 allegation is more than just one technical issue.
You get usually you get more than one technical' issue, so you 25 NEAL R. GROSS count REPORTERS AND TRANSCRBERS 1323 RHOOE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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39 msy hnvo 42 clicgntiena, but you will htva e hundrad 1
2 technical issues to solve.
And we break those down 3
according to technical issues, so we can address them and 4
track them and inspect them.
5 And so those are all tools that we use to make 6
sure that we are providing adequate management oversight 1
7 of the allegation process and the followup on allegations.
8 And that -- I think it works.
You know, it can always be 9
improved, but it it's a good system for raising the 10 threshold, bringing management attention to the issues.
11 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
Could you just read 12 into the record the dates and the heading on that so we'll
{
13 know what he's putting into the record?
14 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
Okay.
I have a memo here 15 from William F.
Kane dated June 7, 1996, with the subject 16 allegation performance indicators for June of 1S96.
That 17 will be placed in the transcript.
19 Do you want us to use this one also or --
3 19 MR. LANNING:
Sure.
That has the -- that has 20 the data attached to it.
21 TEAM LEADER RANNON:
Okay.
The one that has 22 the data attached to it -- that will be more informative is dated May 7th, and it's --
23 j
24 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
What year?
25 TEAM LEADER RANNON:
1996.
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40 1
p;rform nca indientora for May of
'96.
Okcy.
2 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
Okay.
3 MR. LANNING:
What I did not give you is a 4
ccpy of the separate branch tracking of technical issues.
5 I think that might be of use to you.
6 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
That goes beyond 7
allegations that 8
MR. LANNING:
That goes beyond the allegation 9
management system tracking system.
That's a branch --
10 maintained by the project engineer, who is our focal point 11 for inspecting and handling allegations.
So it's a system 12 that -- that's available to him that he uses and updates 13 to -- to make sure nothing falls in the crack.
So I need 14 to get you a copy of that.
So maybe that's an IOU.
15 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
Okay.
16 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
Let me -- since 17 we're touching upon this recordkeeping, and so on, let me 18 just ask you a general question.
Again, this is more from 1
19 your Region 1 perspective than it is from Millstone.
What 20 do you think of the amount of resources available to the 21 Allegation Coordinater here in Region 17 Do you think he
)
22 is overworked and could use more help in terms of full-23 time equivalent, FTEs?
Or do you think that problem has 24 been fixed?
He told us there is a job on the board now 25 for a technical assistant to him, and he has an NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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41 1
cdminictrctiva ha]psr, I guaco full-tima now no of 2
January 1,
'96.
What is your view on his resource i
3 situation?
4 MR. LANNING:
I think historically he has been
-- there has been more on his plate than one person can 5
6 ha'ndle.
We have attempted to help him by providing --
7 this is history now -- providing him DRP, secretarial help 8
for example.
Slowly we have added secretary-type 9
administrative support to the Allegation Coordinator.
10 That has been an enormous help.
11 It still is inadequate to handle the workload 12 dealing with allegations.
We're getting ready to add an i
13 additional FTE to deal with allegations.
That should 14 help.
That should certainly help.
It's too early to tell 15 if it's sufficient or not.
16 We have also had rotational assignments of 17 people into the Allegation Coordinator's office.
In fact, 18 as part of the intern program, we rotated the interns 19 through there for two purposes.
And I think it worked out 20 great.
One was to really help kill off the backlog, and 21 also it provided an opportunity for interns to get a very 22 broad perspective of allegations that deals with 23 interactions with senior managers, senior NRC people, 24 dealing with individuals one on one, so it's a great 25 learning tool for interns.
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i 42 1
But otill, I cm -- I guaco I'm still not 2
convinced that we have enough resources to deal with the 3
burden of allegations.
It's horrendous.
4 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
I think somebody said, 5
maybe it was you or Dick Cooper, indicated that there was 6
also a Reactor Engineer assigned to Branch 6 that was 7
pret'ty much full-time.
8 MR. LANNING:
We added an additional PE to 9
Branch 6, additional --
10 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
Project engineer.
11 MR. LANNING:
-- project engineer, which is a 12 14 level person.
So we have two pes in Branch 6, and we 13 did that '95 timeframe, thereabouts.
14 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
Was that expressly to i
15 deal with --
16 MR. LANNING:
Expressly.
Absolutely.
l l
17 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
Okay.
So that just i
18 focuses on Millstone.
19 MR. LANNING:
Just Millstone.
But recognize, 20 until recently, Millstene -- I guess Millstone still has 21 the most -- the majority of the allegations, though I 22 understand there is some increase in activity on other 23 sites.
But historically, you know, Millstone represents 24 the majority of the allegations that this region receives 25 from power reactors.
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43 1
So, you know, there has been a lot of 2
attention placed on being timely and responsive and -- and 3
getting licensees to be more responsive to the resolution of technical issues associated with allegations.
And so 4
5 that explains why we added a PE, explains why we added 6
additional resources in the Allegation Coordinator's i
7 office.
So we'll get there.
We'll get there.
8 I think given -- given the amount of work 9
involved with allegations, I think we've done pretty well.
10 TEAM LEADEk HANNON:
Okay.
The last two 11 bullets here we touched in -- in depth on -- on 12 recordkeeping.
And the training and accountability, 13 you've touched on those, too, with regard to how you hold 14 the people that work with you accountable, and the j
15 training issue was more geared towards, are our people 16 sensitized to the need to be responsive and deal with 17 people effectively en a one-on-one basis.
18 MR. LANNING:
I think the people who deal with 19 allegers on an ongoing basis are highly sensitized, know 20 what to do, what questions to ask, how to fill out the 21 form, how to be responsive, how to be an effective agent 22 for the agency in dealing with the allegations.
No 23 question about it.
It's -- it's -- it's the other people 24 who don't get frequent exposure to allegations that makes 25 us vulnerable at times to how we deal with allegers, who NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPoMRS AND TRANSCRBERB 1323 RHoOE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
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i 44 1
don't clwaya know how to -- to react, don't always know --
2 for example, somebody comes up to an inspector in the 3
plant and requests, " Hey, I have a safety concern," and he 4
won't tell anybody type of thing.
5 And so although we have training sessions on how to deal with allegers and the allegation process, 6
I 7
feel personally a little vulnerable in that area.
But for the people who normally deal with allegers on an ongoing 8
basis, NRR folks for example who don't normally deal with 9
i 10 allegations, I think you've got a very good example --
11 (Witness laughs.)
\\
12
-- dealing with this task force with people i
13 who doesn't -- who don't normally deal with allegations, 14 don't always know the traffic signs.
15 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
Okay.
Do you have any 16 other thoughts you want to share with us before we close 17 up?
I think we've just about exhausted our questions.
18 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
You are going to 13 give us that one document you made reference to, right?
20 MR. LANNING:
Yes, sir, I will -- I will go 21 and retrieve a copy of that.
22 OI investigations -- I want to talk about OI 23 investigations.
I want to talk about the priority of OI 24 investigations, and more specifically about H&I-based OI 25 investigations.
One of the criticisms -- don't let me NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRISERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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45 1
forgst, I wrnt to talk about collusion alco bafore wa 2
close.
3 One of the criticisms that I hear from the 4
public is that we do not investigate / follow up on harassment and intimidation issues raised by employees, 5
6 not all of them.
And we don't have the resources to do 7
that.
But nevertheless, the public recognizes that something as significant as harassment and intimidation of 8
individuals the NRC doesn't necessarily follow up and 9
10 inspect and investigate, in all cases.
11 And that's a difficult thing to explain, and I 12 can explain the fact that we're resource limited, we can 13 only do so much, we try to look at the more severe cases, 14 and so forth.
15 But that gets us to priority of OI cases and 16 how we prioritize.
I really think we need to -- to do 17 more in the area -- do more in the area of investigations 18 for H&I cases, which means OI needs more resources, I 19 would guess is the bottom line here.
But we currently 20 prioritize everything high, essentially, for H&I.
But yet 21 even some -- for some of those high priorities we drop, 22 and we are not able to go and inspect.
23 So that's -- that's an area where I think we l
24 could improve our credibility with the public, if we can 25 say something more rigo.rous about either the way we NEAL R. GROSS couer neponrens m0inAusemeens 1323 nHOOE 18 LAND AVE., N.W.
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46 i
i prioritize HEI casca, or wa put cdditional resources on it 2
to -- to try to cover most or all of the H&I cases.
So
- hat's a suggestion for the improvement of the agency.
3 4
TEAM LEADER HANNON:
That gets to our first 5
bullet, the DOL /NRC interface, because that's one of the 6
sub' issues that we've got.
7 MR. LANNING:
Okay.
Good.
That's a good 8
issue, because I -- you know, I can talk in public 9
concerning the fact that we don't have adequate resources 10 to invest in all H&I cases.
The public finds that hard to 11 accept.
12 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
Also, the point that 13 you should probably stress in most public forums is that 14 for the person -- the alleger to get personal relief they i
15 have to go to DOL.
We, the NRC, whether it's OI or 16 anybody else within NRC, we cannot give them personal 17 relief.
DOL is the only person that can -- or the only 18 party, rather, that can do it unler the law.
That's the 19 way the law is.
20 And maybe it would help when you are in the 21 public forum to say that -- that we do not have the 22 ability to put coniebody back to work.
23 MR. LANNING:
I do, and I am very conscious of 24 that fact, and we -- we try to explain that that's really 25 the only way an individual can be made whole.
But at the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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47 l
1 cama ticta, com7 of thoco individualo feel that thsy've 2
been wronged by a utility, and they want NRC to assess 3
fines and investigate and inspect.
And we don't always 4
follow up on all H&I cases.
Okay?
l 5
Collusion -- I want to talk about collusion 6
with NRC and utility, because that's another feedback I 7
get from the public.
The public generally sees collusion, 8
at least the part I hear, of the NRC and NU specifically, j
9 in the form of when NRC -- former NRC employees are either 10 consultants or members of the board of trustees for NU.
11 They -- they see that as a collusion between l
12 the NRC and Northeast Utilities.
And personally, I have a 13 bard time explaining and convincing them that once a 14 person leaves the NRC, there are some -- some exclusion i
15 periods and times and what they can do.
But they are 16 really outside the regulatory framework when they are 17 working for the utility, and that's really after their 18 employment with the NRC.
19 But I can also understand why they think those 20 people could come back to the NRC and influence -- gain 21 information about what goes on with regard to that 22 utility.
So that's -- that's an issue that I don't know 23 that you can solve as part of your recommendations, but 24 it's -- it's an issue that sometimes causes areas for 25 embarrassment to the remaining staff when these NRC I
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48 smployaac chow up working for tha utility in very 1
2 sensitive areas.
3 And the utility's employees recognize that, 4
sees that, and, you know, comes to the wrong conclusion i
5 that it has collusion.
If there is anything we can do to 6
clarify that, or -- or further restrict that activity, I 7
think as an agency we ought to do it.
8 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
Well, that's a good 9
point, and it brings to my mind another question that I 10 was going to pose to Mr. Kane tomorrow.
But since you 11 brought it up, I'll ask you, too.
12 The sense that we got from a number of the 13 more high profile individuals that previously 14 disenfranchised and ultimately terminate 6 is that there is 15 not only a sense of collusion between the NRC and the 16 utility, but also there is -- the more underlying basis 4
17 for that perception is that we are all in this together 18 economically, that if we do something that -- our thought 19 process brings into -- even though it's not written down, 20 it's subtle, that we consider the economic impact on the 21 utility.
22 We know -- at least at my level, I know that's 23 not correct, because I know that doesn't occur in the 24 experience that I've had.
But what can you say about that 25 issue from your standpoint?
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49 1
MR. LANNING:
I'va b3Gn ocksd that quastion in 2
public meetings.
I've been asked the question about the 1d 3
economic impact both by Northeast Utilities and also the 4
potential health impacts to the public due to rotating brownouts and the fact that the units are shut 5
down and there is a shortage power in the northeast corridor.
6 7
My response has been that the economic well 8
being is not an NRC consideration.
Our primary 9
responsibility is ensuring the public health and safety, s
10 and that although we recognize and we're sympathetic to 11 the public health as a result of this power shortage, that 12 it is really up to the utility and other government 13 agencies to -- to really help the conservation measures or 14 other areas to minimize the impact.
15 So I was trying to make it very absolutely 1
16 clear that the economic considerations is not a factor in t
i 17 just having restart.
18 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
Okay.
All right.
Unless 19 you have any additional comments to make, Wayne, I'm going 20 to conclude the interview.
Here is the handout we have 21 that describes the review process for the transcript.
22 We'll be getting back to you on that, and --
23 INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
I think you should 24 show him -- Sherry's name that's on the bottom --
25 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
Yes.
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=.
o 50 1
INVESTIGATOR MOHRWINKEL:
-- that's our transcript coordinator who will be the person getting in 2
3 teuch with you.
4 MR. LANNING:
All right.
Good.
5 TEAM LEADER HANNON:
And you're going to get 6
us one document and that will be attached to your 7
transcript, along with the other one that you gave us.
8 And that completes the interview.
Thanks very much.
9 (Whereupon, at 6:25 p.m., the proceedings in the above-entitled interview were concluded.)
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TWtSCRBERB 1323 RHOOE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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_ _-_. _.s bv i
CERTIFICATE This is to certify that the attached a
4 proceedings before the United States Nuclear i
1 l
Reiyulatory Commission in the matter of:
i Name of Proceeding:
INTERVIEW OF WAYNE IANNING 4
Docket Number:
(NOT ASSIGNED) i Place of Proceeding!
KING OF PRUSSIA, PENNSYLVANIA t
were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission taken by me and, thereafter reduced to
{
s 4
i typewriting by me or under the direction of the court i
reporting company, and that the transcript is a true and l
3 4
4 1
accurate record of the foregoing proceedings.
)
W CHRIS ITAKER Official Reporter Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.
i e
b j
i NEAL R. GROSS COUM REPoMERS AND TMSCNBERB
~
1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVEM)E. NW (202) 2S4-4433 WASHINGTON D.C. 2000g (202) 234-4433
,