ML20198N302

Transcript of 971217 Public Meeting in Matter of Northeast Utils.W/Certificate

ML20198N302
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Site:	Millstone
Issue date:	12/17/1997
From:	NRC
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NUDOCS 9801210024
Download: ML20198N302 (188)

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{{#Wiki_filter:. 9.HSys+/ps i i l VERBATIM PROCEEDINGS i ? I l i NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION PUBLIC MEETING IN THE MATTER OF NORTHEAST UTILITIES, MILLSTONE UNITS 1, 2 AND 3 Q l ~,) 8 i DECEMBER 17, 1997 i - l l fv I WATERFORD TOWN HALL I [ D \\ + 15 ROPE FERRY-ROAD 0 l WATERFORD, CONNECTICUT 4 I il FililRnllll p POST REPORTING SERViJE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 M E k o N 45-T PDR -,,,-r--.~-. y ,,,w

2 FORUM RE: MILI NE UNITS () DECEMBER 1*/, 1997 1 . Verbatim Proceedings of the Public 2 Meeting of the United States Nuclear Regulatory 3 Commission in the mstter of Northeast Utilities, 4 Millstone Units 1, 2 and 2, held December 17, 1997, at 5 7:00 P.M., at the Waterford Town Hall, 15 Rope Ferry 6 Road, Waterford, Connecticut. 7 8 9 10 P 11 CHAIRMAN WAYNE LANNING: Okay. Good 0 12 evening and welcome. This is a meeting with the NRC 13 and the public. The purpose of this meeting is to 14 inform you of ongoing activities at the Millstone site, 15 keep you informed and to let you know what NRC is 16 doing, and also to keep you up to date on significant 17 activities that are ongoing or have been completed. 18 I'm Wayne Lanning. I'm Deputy Director 19 for Inspections. On my right is Bill Travers. He's 20 the Director of the Special Projects office. On his 3 21 right is Gene Imbro. Gene oversees the Independent i 22 Corrective Action Verification Program. And on his l 23 right is Phil McKee and Phil is overseeing the Safety-24 Conscious hork Environment activities. POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i

l 1 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBEP.17, 1997 1 We have a full agenda tonight. I will 2 start the evening off by summarizing recent, ongoing 3 and future activities. And then following me, Phil 4 McKee will summarize the Safety-Conscious Work 5 Environment activities. And as promised, Little Harbor i 6 Consultants tre here and will make a presentation. 7 Gene Imbro will then give a current 6 status

t the Independent Corrective Action 9

VeVi':1chtion Program. And finally and just before wo 10 go into the general question-anu-answer session, we'll P 31 give you an opportunity to ask the Senior Resident b 12 Inspectors questions about our most recent inspection li report. And that's Inspection Report No. 203. 14 We do not plan a formal presentation of 15 that report tonight. So we're trying a 14.ttle 16 different format. 17 This meeting is transcribed. So I would I 18 ask that you identify yourself when you come up to ask 19 questions or make comments. 20 We wil) continue with our format of O 21 limiting questions to the topic that has just been l 22 presented or is being discussed and ask for your g [ 23 cooperation in this respect. l 24 At about 9:00 P.M. tonight, we're going ,,i) POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 L i ~.

l 4 ) FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O oses"88a 12 1997 I to take about a 10-minute break. And then we'll 2 continue with the meeting. And we will have, as I 3 indicated

earlier, a

general question-and-answer I 4 session at the end of all formal presentations. 5 Our next public meeting here with you is 6 on January the 27th, 1998. 7 So, with that bit of introduction and 8 some of the administrative activities, let me just s summarize some of the most significant activities since 10 our last meeting. 11 The NRC has issued three Inspection 12 Reports. Inspection Report No. 203 is the Resident 13 Inspector Integrated Report. That was issued near the 14 end of November. We also issued Inspection Report 207. 15 This is the safety system functional inspection that 16 Mr. Leuhman -- 17 MR. GENE IMBRO: 206. 18 CHAIRMAN LANNING: 20G? Wrong number? f, 19 206. That Mr. Leuhman had conducted. And if you 20 recall, he was here one evening where he summarized his O 21 inspection activities and his actually was open for .i 22 public observation. { l 23 We have scheduled a pre-decisional 24 enforcement conference concerning the findings in that POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

5 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 report on January the 13th. And that pre-decisional 2 enforcement conference will be held at the Training 3 Center, best I remember. 4 And finally, Inspection Report 81. This 5 is the emergency preparedness inspection. As you 6

recall, there was this exercise back in the summer.

7 That is a programmatic-inspection.

Again, that exit 8

was open for public observation. And I also noticed in 9

• oday's papers they summarize some of those findings-10 that was in that inspection.

11 We have scheduled another pre-decisional _12 enforcement conference on those findings on December 13 the 22nd. And that pre-decisional enforcement 14 conference will be held in the Regional Office in King 15 of Prussia. 16 Earlier this month the NRC issued a 17 Notice of Violation to Northeast Utilities, 18 Eusentially, this is multiple violations with a civil i 19 penalty issued with it. There are some 72 violations. ) f 20 These violations are what you call historical in f 21 nature. These were things that were identified l 22 -primarily back in '96. g l 23 Those 72 violations were generally in 24 four bigger categories. One was inadequate O U POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

6 i FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 engineering. This involved design basis documentation, 2 50.59 evaluations or safety evaluations. 3 Corrective action violations. This has 4 to do with identification and correction of 5 deficiencies. 6 A third general category was tech spec 7 compliance. This deals with requirements of the 8 operating license and probably contains some of the 9 more significant findings really dealing with safety 10 system operations, several examples there. R 11 The fourth category dealt with Appendix 0 12 B in our requirements that really dealt with the ) 13 Quality Assurance Program. It also included procedures 14 and so forth. There were several examples of 15 weaknerses there. 16 With the issuance of this Notice of 17 Violation and civil penalty -- and as you probably 18 know, the civil penalty was t.e largest that the agency 1 19 has ever issued. But with this

package, the 20 Commissioner has granted the staff the ability to

-O 21 utilize enforcement discretion. I want to say a little k 22 bit about that because in future reports you will g l 23 probably see violations for which we will say we will 24 be exercising enforcement discretion. And by that I I G POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i

l 7 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS ( DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 mean we will not be issuing a Notice of Violation. 2 Now, there are some conditions attached 3 or prerequisites for violations which can be considered 4 for enforcement discretion. First off, they have to be 5 identified by the licensee. And secondly, they have to 6 be related to *** root causes that have been identified 7 in this Notta f Violation package, the 72 violations 8 that we just issued. 9 In other words, if future violations are 10 identified that have the same causes or result in -- as g 11 a result of this extended shutdown for ar,y of the three U 12

units, that's one of the criteria that the staff can 13 exercise enforcement discretion for that particular 14 violation.

15 The staff could also issue enforcement 16 discretion for items that staff identifies. But in 17 those cases, we must go back to the Commissioners and 18 inform them and essentially get their approval for i 19 doing that. 20 But quite simply stated, the reason for O 21 the enforcement discretion is just to preclude issuing l -22 more of the same types of violations that are occurring = I l 23 because of the same causes. So this was taken into i 24 account as part of.the determining of the monetary POST REPORTING SERVICE RAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i .l

f i 8 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 civil -penalty in the beginning. -And so that will be 2 one -of the things that we'll be exercising in the 3 future. 4 Turning now to the Zommission meeting we_ 5 had on December the 12th, we had the same format that l 6 we used in the Inst Commission meeting. It started off 7 with Northeast Utilities providing a status report in' 8 the various areas that -- key iscues that they've been t 9 working on. 10 That was followed by a presentation by 11 Little Harbor Consultants. And you'll hear probably ( f 12 the same presentation, something very similar to that, 13 tonight. 14 And then the Independent Corrective l 15 Action Verification contractors, Sargent & Lundy and 16

Parsons, gave the status of their activities to the_

17 Commission. 18 And finally, the NRC staff presented the our assessment.of progress being made in the restart 19 f - 20 effort of the Millstone units. 'O 21 If I could just simplify the bottom line [ . 22 or the overall consensus, I think, that was arrived at j' 23 that meeting. was that Jprogress has been made in 24 - essentially all-areas. However, there's still a lot of- ) POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 I i e L w .w-..w,--w,% e,4w- ...y-%e-e4.,w-~e-pr.~nt-,---,,,sm., --weem,,,-w.. 6-,-,,.-rwe.,-%,,--mw---r,e,y ,e--e-r--.r-.w. .-werr-ww.--r-vg.,. w,-wr,-. ~

t s 9 t FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMdER 17, 1997 1 work that remains to be done. 2 The areas needing the most attention 3 -were the safety-conscious work environment, the 4 Corrective Action Program and the Configuration .5 Management Program process. Those still represent 6 major challenges in the preparati'n for restarting Unit 7 3. 8 I want to turn now to ongoing and future 9 activities that's coming up between now and the next 10 time we meet. Currently we have an NRC Independent R 11 Corrective Action Verification inspection ongoing at 0 12 the site. This is looking at Tier 2 and Tier 3 for 13 Unit 3. And Gene will probably say more about that 14 when he gives his status. 15 Phil aise vill probably indicate the 16

status, preliminary

status, I

guess, of another not inspection.

It's really an 17 inspection 18 assessment of the Employee Concerns Program assessment. I 19 And that's ongoing. 20 We have a team preparing to do the 3 21 corrective action inspection in January. This is the 1 22 inspection that looks at various facets of how well or -g .l 23 how effective a licensee is at identifying corrective - 24 - and preventing deficiencies. So that inspection is ( ]) POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (600) 262-4102

i 10 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 -preparing to -- is really gathering information, paper, 2 briefs and so forth, in preparation for their own site 3 inspection in the beginning of January. 4

Finally, although this will not begin 5

until -- it's planned to begin in February; is the 6 operational safety team inspection. This is the 7 inspection, as you know, one of the final inspections 8 that assesses the readiness of the various

programs, 9

people, hardware and plant for operations. So that's 10 currently planned for February. 11 So, with that overview, does anyone have 12 questions about anything? Do I need to expand upon 13 anything I've said? 14 Okay. With that, I'll turn it over to 15 Phil McKee. 16 MR. PHIL McKEE: Good evening. I'm 17 going to talk a little bit about -- I'll just give you 18 a status of NRC activities with respect to oversight of f 19 licensee's Employee Concerns Program and activities 20 associated with Safety-Conscious Work Environment. 21 And primarily, as Wayne mentioned, are l 22 the activities that we have going on, is a team 1 l. 23 evaluation of the -- is looking at several areas. It's 24 looking at the licensee's Employee Concerns Program, p POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 t-

t 11 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 the programs that they have in effect actually that are 2 outside the line organization and add essing employee 3 concerns that come in through this specific 4 organization within Northeast Utilities. 5 It's also looking at the broader, more 6 encompassing area of the Safety-Conscious Work 7 Environment in all the activities that are ongoing to 8 address and make improvements in that area. 9 And, further, the evaluation is looking 10 at Little Harbor Consultants, which is the third party g 11 that by order is overseeing all the licensee's b 12 activities in both Employee Concerns Program and 13 Safety-Conscious Work Environment. 14

Again, it's evaluations being done.

15 It's a team of individuals from the NRC. It includes 16 people from -- a person from another region and NRC 17 staff and contractor staff. And looking at all these 18 areas. The team plans -- has completed their first I 19 week of work and plans to return to the site to 20 continue the evaluation the first week or the week of f 21 January 5 for an additional week to look further into l 22 those areas. g S l 23 As I mentioned, most of the findings are 24 preliminary. I can mention -- I think you'll hear from POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

12 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () f DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 Little Harbor at least some activities. There are a 2 lot of activities that are o.1 going, that are' in 3

process, particularly with reepect to the Safety-4 Conscious Work Environment.

A lot of those programs 5 are relatively new and getting under way. But there 6 were a lot in that area that we are looking at a.3 7 trying to focus on and trying to coordinate those 8 activities. I think the team initially found that 9 there was a pretty good -- better emphasis on focusing 10 and coordinating those -- all those efforts going on, g 11 Our exit for that evaluacion is planned d r3 12 later in January, tentatively now for January 22. That \\,J 13 would be an exit that would be open to the public. And 14 right now, the plans are probably to have separate 15 exits, one with Northeast Utilities and also one with 16i Little Harbor on our findings in that area. 17 I might add another aspect that is 18 upcoming that we're going to do -- and Wayne also i 19 mentioned this evaluation. We're doing evaluation -- 20 one of our buzz words is 4500 that you'll hear. That's 21 an evaluation. And during that evaluation, that 22 ovaluation focuses and looks at' licensee's programs l 23 with respect to corrective

actions, root cause 24.

analyses, oversight, quality assurance, and licensee's (~3 POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l

13 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS ,.() DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 self-assessments in other areas. But those are areas 2 we consider fundamental to the safety culture and the 3 safety-conscious work environment, that those ai e 4 functioning and working well. 5 So as part of that inspection, we are 6 also going to have -- the NRC will include somebody who 7 is going to really be a part of that inspection, 8 looking through lenses from a safety-conscious work 9 environment aspect of how are issues and problems of 10 individuals being carried in the system and

resolved, 11 and also provide input to our whole evaluation.

U 12 Another important part of what we're 13 doing, too, is participating with the meetings that are 14 held periodically between Northeast Utilities, Little 15 Harbor and the NRC. The last meeting we had was, I 16 believe, November the. 13th. 17 Some of the things discussed at that l 18 meeting

well, I

think Little Harbor will be 19 discussing several of the items that they covered 20 during that meeting. The licensee or Northeast o 21 Utilities talked about some of_their corrective actions Ia. 22 that were -- because of some earlier findings by Little 1 l 23 Harbor in the Employee Concerns Program area. And they. 24 also talked at that meeting about to some extent, -s '~ POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

= 14 FORUM RE:. MILLSTONE' UNITS l ) DECEMBEh 17, 1997 I about the programs they have to' address what they term 2 problem areas in Northeast Utilities organization. 3 Those are areas that are identified by various sources, 4 their leadership surveys. And it really focuses on'an 5 organizational unit 'and dealing with how problems may 6 arise and resolution of issues or management in that 7 organizational unit. 8 That's one important aspect that we are 9 now looking at as part of our evaluation, I think a 10 pretty fundamental or important aspect in improving the 11 safety-conscious work environment. e 12 Also -- oh, also I might mention as part {) 13 of the Commission meeting or the paper that supported 14 the Commission meeting, staff developed and it was an 15 attachment to that, for the staff to kind of structure 16 activities and present exactly what we're doing. A lot 17 of what I just described is our the staff's I 18 assessment plan for oversight of how Northeast 19 Utilities evaluates the process for handling employee 20 concerns. O 21 Now, with

that, I think I've avoided 22 some of-the things I was going to discuss because I

g_

l 23 think they'll be picked up by Little Harbor.

Little 24 Harbor will provide you a presentation on their -h - POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 r wa ,.4 y ww.+ m .J .v... . -+ q.. w+.,-

~ = .15 1( )- FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS f DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 activities and status ~of their activities and some of 2 the things that they have ongoing. And I think after 3 their presentation, we can open up to questions in.this 4 topic area. 5 MR. JOHN BECK: Can you hear me all' 6 right? I'm kind of-fighting off one-of the seasonal 7 -pleasures in New England right now. So if I choke up 8 and have to pass the baton to-Mr. Griffin, don't be 9 surprised. 10 I'm John

Beck, President of Little

.g 11 Harbor. And with me tonight are John Griffin, the co-0 12 team leader for the oversight effort, and Ms. Billie 13 Garde. I see a lot of familiar faces. So I suspect 14 you recognize us right off the bat. 15 Before I get into the presentation that 16 we gave to the Commissioners last Friday, I'd like to 17 explain a little bit about how those sessions work. 18 You're constrained by time in those circumstances. And 19 we were constrained to 15 minutes in our presentation. .20 So it's -- we've got a little more time this evening -21 -and' probably more time for questions. And I'd 4 Ip appreciate it if you'd let me go through it and then we 22 l' 23 can get back to questions. 24 . We provided handouts in the back of the [( POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

~. _. 'f 4 16 FORUMERE: MILLSTONE UNITS --({_ DECEMBER 17, 1997. l L 1 1 room that contain all-the slides 1that you're going ta)- -2 see. projected. tonight, the same ones:we used on Friday, i- [ 3 plus some additional slides that we've provided'to thel t. 4 Commission in advance of-the presentation that contain l 5 our 12 attributes that-we use to evaluate safety-6 conscious work environment at Millstone station. 7 And some'of you may be familiar with the 8 methodology that we presented at our November meeting 9 which provides the basis for us to come to a judgment- -10 as tx) the degree of goodness or lack thereof given

11 those particular attributes.

And you'll see those in . 7 12 the' slides as well. } 13 Don, if you could -- we've got it. Go 14 to the next slide, if you would, Don, at this point. 15 This shows that our next major activity 16 is going to be to conduct a second round of structured i 17 interviews with the work force at the Millstone site. I 18 You'll-recall that last July we did the structured 19 interviews which we reported. on at a public meeting. 20 And-we'll be doing the same thing here. 'O -21 This second set will commence in i [- 22 February and'.it will add data points to the others. -[ 23 zThat1will give us a' - total of three -data points with 24 -regard to allithe issues that we are. going to explore L '11 ~ ' POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

17 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 in those structured interviews. 2 The purpose is to determine how people 3 at Millstone feel about all facets of a safety-4 conscious work environment. Those to be interviewed 5 will be chosen by us and they'll be chosen to be 6 representative of the work force at the site and will j 7 be a different set of people to those we interviewed in 8 June. 9 The results will be available prior to 10 an anticipated Commission vote on the restart of a unit 11 at Millstone. And we'll also continue our oversight of 9 (3 - 12 the various Northeast programs that support a safety- \\-) 13 conscious work environment, with a particular emphasis 14 on how effective these programs are. 15 There have been two events at Millstone 16 for which we have performed special investigations in 17 accordance with our oversight plan. The first event l 18 involved potential retaliation against contractors in I. 19 the MOV Department by their immediate management who f 20 also happened to be in that case contractors. O 21 The second involved an allegation of I g 22 retaliation claimed by one of the individuals s l 23 disciplined by Northeast management as a result of the 24 Training Department investigation following the h POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 .a

~.. - - { 18 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS J DECEMBER 17,. 1997 i l1 . December96 operator-~ examination failures. 2 In the first. instance, we verified and 3 agreed with the conclusions reached by the company 4 investigation of the'MOV= issues that retaliation was a 5 factor in the termination of two contract engineers. 6 In-'the second case, we concluded that 7 there-was no evidence of retaliation by Northeast 8 management in the disciplinary actions taken by the 9 company. 10 Moving on to our evaluation of g 11 Northeast's progress -with respect to establishing a u 12 safety-conscious work environment at Millstone, our 13 oversight plan identifies 11 attributes which we-think 14 are critical to an ideal safety-conscious work 15 environment. 16 -Since the plan was published in June, we 17 have added another attribute to cover incidents related 18 to harassment, intimidation, retaliation or i 19 discrimination. And we continually monitor these 20 attributes -through interviews, reviews and 3 21 observations. 22 Asi 'information dictates, the-LHC team -g; l 23 members working-in a particular area meet -to discuss L24 ' data and-reach consensus for relevant. attributes. As POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 w. r - -.., = ,W.- av +y+-..m--r-.-a n-r

19 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS j( ) DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 changes occur in the

future, Little Harbor will 2

-communicate these changes to the NRC staff, Northeast 3 Utilities and the rublic. 4 This next slide shows our approach to 5 evaluating the status of Northeast's safety-conscious 6 work environment implementation efforts. We've chosen 7 to use five gradations for evaluation of each Little 8 Harbor attribute or Northeast success criteria. 9 Green meets all expectations. Red, on 10 the end of the

spectrum, requires significant g

11 improvement. And there are three levels of yellow or n 12 within the yellow band as we indicate on the slide. We (-) v 13 also evaluate the current performance trend for each 14 attribute as indicated by an arrow in the box. 15 We have developed a consensus on the 16 team that for each of the four Northeast Utilities 17 success criteria -- and I'll be talking about those in I. 18 a moment -- that they must be rated neutral yellow with 19 a horizontal arrow or better to be considered ready for 20 restart of a unit at Millstone. 21 The next slide, the status reports which 8 22 we'll be sharing in a moment are based on our l 23 evaluation of progress to date. The Little Harbor 24 opinions are based on our initial structured interview ,s. l' ') E 1 L POST REPORTING SERVICE l HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 1

20 l FORUM RE -MILLSTONE UNITS 1 - ( f; DECEMBER 17, 1997-c s. I results~-our, initial reviews of the' Employee Concerns 2 - Program and Corrective faction Program,- and other r 3 activities.- We're continuing ou r _. review -of the

4 comprehensive plan effectiveness.

We'll be doing, as I 5 mentioned,

another round of - structured interviewss 6

We'll be closing out our Employee Concerns Program and 7 Corrective Action Program reviews and continue 8 observation of various site activities. 9 This evening we've-chosen to address 10 only the four Northeast Utilities success criteria -2 . 11 rather than go through each of-our 12 attributes, R-5{]p 12 although they are, as I mentioned, in your handouts. 13 And we'll certainly entertain questions on any of those 14 should someone have them. But we did include our 15 evaluation of these attributes for that purpose. 16 Next slide. Our rating of the first 17 Northeast. Utilities success criteria, the willingness -I -18 to raine safety concerns, is a neutral yellow holding 19 steady. ' It's based on a roll-up of our attributes 20 wi_4chiare in your handout, Numbers 2, 6, 7, 9 and-12. O. 21 While.there continue to be problem-areas l. 22 at Millstone, we-believe that-this - attribute has ll " 23 improved and: workers at Millstone are willing to raise 1!4 safety concerns via'one of the available mechanisms. h ll - - ' POST REPORTING SERVICE i HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 o e er a..- w .-.-a 2.w -%34 uv -, 9--.-,.,.w,-y-,-w.- ,.e-m.4 ,,Wg. ,to. 4 m-e w y.w w -m,.y a, - -,a a

- - - - - - -.. -. ~.. -..... - s 2'1 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS-DECEMBER 17, 1997-- 1 Resolut' ion of-existihg problem

areas, 2

coupled with-the ongoing training of the work force, 3 should provide _further improvement in the-future. 4 Our rating of the next Northeast success-5 criteria,- issues are effectively resolved by~ line 6 ' management, namely the-Corrective Action Program,Eis 7 also evaluated as a. neutral yellow but with an 8 improving trend at this time. It's based-on our { 9 evaluation of our Attribute No. 10, which is the 10 Corrective Action Program. 11 We performed a comprehensive review of 12 this Corrective Action Program which we completed and-13 reported on last September. And we concluded that 14 Nortc. east has established an excellent Corrective 15 Action Program which is being aggressively implemented. 16 Our continuing review of the Corrective Action Program 17 'is focused on the effective resolution of problems that I . 19 The third NU success

criteria, 18 are addressed within the program.

- 20 effectiveness of the Employee Concerns Program, is a 21 minus. yellow, improving. And that would not meet our I[ 22 requirement -for start-up of a unit at this time. 'Now, g { 23 this attribute'is' identical to our Attribute No. 11. s-24 Northeast has made significant strides 'o POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i M 4 y ---w ,e ,,---a,--.w ---e-

1 4 22 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS .{} DECEMBER 17, 1997 -1 in the-improvement of the Employee Concerns Program. 2 We feel that this rating would be up at-least a notch 3 to neutral yellow, improving, but for the apparent high 4 percentage of persons who have used the program and who -5 indicate that they would not use it again. We're not 6 satisfied today that we totally understand why users of 7 the ECP feel.this way. We're going to develop that 8 understanding over the next few weeks. And, thus, our 9 conservative rating today. 10

Overall, we feel that Northeast R

11 management and the employees and contractors who work - %[} 12 in the Employee Concerns Program have made significant 13 strides over the past few months and that the program 14 is continuing to improve. 15 Our final NU success criteria rating, on 16 recognizing and dealing with harassment, intimidation, 17 retaliation and discrimination -- excuse me -- is red. 18 And this results from a roll-up of our Attributes Nos. 19 3, 4, 5, 8 and 9. 20 The sources of input for our review of ~ 'i = 0 21 in-process

training, observations, specific l

.22 investigations of. Millstone incidents, Employee Concern =-I: l 23 Program follow-up interviews, validation of their. 24 comprehensive plan--action items and walk-in interviews. - LO POST REPORTING-SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 5 w -= ~ w ,-i

x 23 ~r- ~

FORUM.RE

. MILLSTONE: UNITS l

DECEMBER.17, 1997 1 I should add that-we have observed 2 recently that.there has-been some positive movement.by 3 . Northeast management in this~ area. Some examples-4 include 10 CFR 50.7, -training: for, all. management 5 personnel, which is in progress, specific management 6 responses to recent issues. involving potential 7 retaliatory behavior and the consolidation and addition 8 of management resources under Mr. Brothers regarding 9 all matters associated with a safety-conscious work- .10 environment. R 11 The -basis, fundamentally, for our red B 12 rating-is the fact that harassment, intimidation, [} 13 retaliation, discrimination incidents continue to 14 occur, as you have heard earlier in our report on the -15 MOV incidents, for example, and that'NU management has 16 not until very recently responded appropriately, in our 17

opinion, to events related to retaliation by either I,.

18 recognizing it' when it happens-or taking appropriate 19 action to mitigate-chilling-effects when it does 20 happen. C 21 In

summary, we've seen improvement at 22

. Millstone-over-the past~few months with respect to a -l L23 -safety-conscious work environment. 'The Employee 24 ' Concerns = Program'; has made some significant strides 1but o POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

- -=. L I: i r e 24 -FORUM RE:. MILLSTONE UNITS l( )_ DECEMBER'17, 1997 1 requires some-effort to improve the perception of its 2 users. The most_ difficult task, in our opinion, facing 3 3 Northeast is clearly the _need to improve its 4 performance with respect to harassment, intimidation, 5 retaliation or discrimination issues. We'll _ continue 6 to monitor very closely these areas and be pleased to 7 respond to any questions that you may have. 8 MS. ROSEMARY.BASSILAKIS: Good evening., 9 I'm Rosemary Bassilakis with the-Citizens Awareness 10 Network. I live in Haddam. I don't -- I was hoping 11 someone else would have some questions first so I could

• J-12 think a little bit, 13 I'm a little bit confused.

I walked in 14 a little bit late, so maybe I missed out on what you 15 said. But the attributes, when you were giving those 16 numbers for each of the different topics that you were 17 talking about, the attributes -- what are they -- what l-18 are they? 19 MR. BECK: The attributes that I 20 referred to? O '21 MS. BASSILAKIS: Right. l

22 MR. BECK

Okay. In our oversight plan = 5 -. l 23 24 MS BASSILAKIS: Okay. 4 POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT-(800) 262-4102 1

.. - - ~.. t 25 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS ()L DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 MR. BECK:' -- we identify 11-attributes 2 that we think'are.' characteristic of-an ideal safety-3 - conscious work environment. And for each -- 4 A VOICE: They start on Page 4.- 5 MR. BECK: They start on Page 4 in the- .6 handouts. 7 MS, BASSILAKIS: Okay. 8 MR. BECK: It's Slides 8 through -- 9 A VOICE: I'm sorry. They start on Page

10 6.

11 MR. BECK: Excuse me. Page 6 they V-12 start. Slides 8 through 19. So those are-the g 13 attributes that are lifted from our oversight plan 14 which was published in June. 15 So we evaluate each one of those 16 attributes through -- 117 MS. BASSILAKIS: Okay. l-18 MR. BECK: -- a combinaticn of all the L19 things we're doing, efforts on the part of the company I20 that-we can monitor and evaluate for effectiveness and

o

-So it's -- 21 so forth. [ li2 MS, BASSILAKIS: Okay. lll 523 MR. BECK: -- a fairly comprehensive set '24 of stuff that we,look at. POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800)-262-4102 pa----u w - +, - y-m

-.. ) '26 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS (v) DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 MS. BASSILAKIS: Okay. I'll look at 2 those later. 3 MR. BECK: Yes. ,4 MS. BASSILAKIS: Just a clarification 5 question. You said that each of these areas have to be 6 yellow with a steady arrow, not yellow with a minus 7 with a steady arrow, but yellow -- 8 MR. BECK: Or better. That's right. 9 MS. BASSILAKIS: Or better. 10 MR. BECK: Yes. 11 MS. BASSILAKIS: With a steady arrow. U 12 The steady arrow is a notch below Improving? 13 MR. BECK: Yes. It means that things 14 are essentially

steady, are not improving, are not 15 getting worse.

They're at that steady state condition. 16 Yes. 17 MS. BASSILAKIS: Okay. All of these I 18 different areas have to be. So if this one that -- the 19 one that's the yellow arrow minus, but improving, and f 20 you said that your concern is that the workers have O 21 said that they won't re-use the program, that if that i 22 one alone hasn't improved, that they won't be ready for [ 23 restart? 24 MR. BECK: That criteria applies to the (3 ~' POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) P.62-4102 l

FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS l L27 i ). DECEMBER 17, 1997 l 1 'four NU success criteria, yes. And in the one you =2 i cited, if that-does not change between now and the time -3 we're asked the ' question, the answer in. our opinion 4 will be no. That's correct.- 4 5 MS. BASSILAKIS: When is the next' time 6 you'll be asked that questiert? I assume there will be 7 one more meeting with the Commission before restart of 8 Millstone 3? 9 MR. BECK: I don't know 2actly. From 10 what I heard last, I would read it at least two more. .11 MS. BASSILAKIS: It's been a while. f 12 DR. BILL TRAVERS: My name is Bill 13 Travers. What we heard at the Commission meeting is a 14 couple of things. One is the Commission indicated its t 15 intent to try to schedule a meeting in February. The s 16 expectation is that that meeting would not be one where 17 we'd be in a position to recommend restart. So I look 4 l 18 aon it as more status meeting than anything. 19 But in that connection, I'll just '20 mention that the Commission, while there has been a lot- -o. 121 of discussion about schedules and where things stand,_ 3-i[ .2 the (Chairman in particular took the opportunity to 2 A-- l

23 emphasize, as we've done -countless times at.these-

-24 ' meetings,- that we're not working to any particular a if, lP POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 .j' 4 , e ,.u.., _,..,,.._.,-m py.,.,_.# ,.e._, ,_.--.,-4-,_, - ~ ,...y,

28 l ()-- FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS DECEMBER 17, 1997

1 schedule or Constraint.

Rather, the NRC views the 2 resolution of the' issues.as a.very important.one,. as 3 the_ imperative over -- certainly over the scheduled -- 4 MS. BASSILAKIS: So February. 'And then 5 after that, you'll decide -- { 6 DR. TRAVERS: Whenever it seems-7 appropriate. It may not -- the hope -- the hope that 1 8 was _ expressed at that meeting, one that we said is 9 possible, depending upon how NU's accomplishments fall i 10 or don't, is, you know, March time frame. R 11 MS. BASSILAKIS: I guess that's it. But 12 let'me just say_I stop at yellow lights, totally. I'm -,0 13 - not one to go through yellow lights. So just to -- for 4 14 the record. 15 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Does anyone else have 16 questions?. 1 17 Mr. Blanche? 18 .MR. PAUL BLANCHE: I shouldn't even sit I.. 19 down. But -- I usually don't ask questions unless I g 20 know the answer to them, but I'm going to ask you a f~ 21 question that I don't know the answer to them. l 22 Okay. My name-is-Paul Blanche. I'm a l ~ 23 consultant to Northeast Utilities. But, you know,-the ~ 24 NRC' has responsibility for a safety-conscious work ll POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 ---.--~h4, x 4 + .i...,m. ,_,n, w

u i '29 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS .(): DECEMBER'17, 1997 .1 environment and, obviously, fulfilling its' obligation- -2 .to make sure of' compliance with regulations. And.that 3 is 10 CFR 50 7_on employee protection.. 4 However,.the Employee. Concerns Program 5 and apparently the oversight of Little Harbor goes, you 6 know, beyond 10 CFR 50.7, which is related to nuclear-7 issues. 8 What -- and I know the Employee Concerns 9 Program also goes and addresses non-nuclear issues. l 10 Hypothetically, what happens if the -- all the nuclear 11 issues, those that are related to protected activities, 12 employee protection, are satisfactory but, yet, there's 13 a' lot of inappropriate actions in discrimination for 14 other than nuclear activities, sexual discrimination, 15 harassment, age discrimination, whatever those non-16 nuclear -- how would you -- how do you weight-those 17 non-nuclear discrimination versus those nuclear? And - 18 is that factored into your evaluation which is being f-19 overseen by the NRC? I'm not sure--- - 20 A VOICE: That's a good question. = 21 MR. BLANCHE: -- how that factors in I L 22 there.

f 23 MS.

BILLIE GARDE: That's la good 24 question,' Paul. And one of the other events that has- ~ POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT- (800) 262-4102 .g r a v. -.-,r..,.; ,,-,,.-.,---,-r_, 4

__.._.-m . _... - _ _. _ _. _ _ ~... _.... _. i 4 30: - FORU4 RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

;}

DECEMBER-17,l1997 -j I transpired.since our last meeting'was that I completed j 2 my review of the retaliation file, something that I did 3 not have done by the' October or November meetings. 4 Juni let me answer your question in :a 5 little bit broader context. The Millstone Employee r 6 Concerns Task Force that wrote the original- ] 7 -Comprehensive Plan scoped out-what its expectations for 8 the new Employee Concerns Program to be as much broader-9 than 10 CFR 50.7 and nuclear safety-related issues. l 10 They did that because they had a concern >R 11 that overall on the site there was a lack of trust in E 12 the other parts of the

company, whether it's line 13 management or Human Resources, to deal with employee 14

-concerns in other areas besides nuclear. safety-related l 15 issues. And they made a commitment that they wanted to 16 fix as much as they could be fixing that program. 17 That makes the challenges for the ECP l 18 even. greater. And until last month, the Employee 11 9 Concerns Program did not even break down-issues of 20 harassment,--intimidation, retaliation or discrimination f 21 by 10 CFR 5.7 definitions. So when you saw those t 22 -slides that said -- and I don't remember the. numbers. ' f: 23 But - let's say there was 20 HIRD complaints, those- '24 -complaints weald include retaliation for-raising E POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN,-CT: '(800) 262-4102 n li

31 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS (g 7.- ; DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 nuclear safety concerns and it could also include 2 discrimination in connection with an unfair promotion. 3 So it wae a very broad perspective. 4 When you do a cut. on what's 10 CFR 50.7 5 retaliation

issues, it's less than

half, but op".y 6

slightly less than half. I think it's 45 percent would 7 be 10 CFR 50.7 issues. 8 Now, Little Harbor looked at all of the 9 10 CFR 50.7 files and a pretty large percentage, over 10

half, of all

files, regardless of what the subject 11 matter

was, and have made a

determination and -n 12 evaluation on both the broader perspective and the 10 V 13 CFR 50.7 issues. 14 As long as Northeast Utilities' 15 commitment is to include in their ECP program al3 16 retaliation and discrimination claims, the workers are 17 going to evaluate that program on the basis of how they l 18 deal with all of those complaints. A lot of plants in i. 19 this country, in

fact, most plants in this country f

20 restrict their programs only to 10 CFR 50,7 issues. O 21 Northeast has taken on a bigger k 22 challenge. g l 23 MR. BLANCHE: Right. 24 MS. GARDE: The workers are going to C) POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

32 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS ( )' DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 evaluate it on the basis of their commitment. 2 Therefore, Little Harbor is evaluating it on the basis 3 of that commitment. And it does hold itself out to be, 4 you know, a higher standard. 5 I can talk a little bit about my 6 findings on the retaliation files later, once we finish 7 the questions on our presentation. But does that 8 answer your question? 9 MR. BLANCHE: Well, for the most part. 10 But I guess because they've expanded the program to .g 11 include those issues that go outside the nuclear, it U 12 seems to reflect a little bit more negative on them. 13 Is that -- because those normal issues that are handled 14 by Human Resources or other organizations are now under 15 the purview of Little Harbor and, therefore, the NRC. 16 So -- 17 MS. GARDE: I don't understand what you 18 mean by reflect more negatively. There's more of an 19 opportunity for them to be criticized if they don't f 20 handle things -- O 21 MR. BLANCHE: Correct. k 22 MS. GARDE: -- than if they narrowed the g l 23 scope of the program and only concentrated on those 24 issues. I don't know if you should necessarily ( POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

~ _ h 33' FORUM RE: !!ILLSTONE UN;TS ()- DECEMBER.17, 1997-P 1 criticize them. for taking on a bigger challenge, that: + 2 their employees said -- 3 .MR. BLANCHE: 'Oh, no. It's important to .4 do. It's just.I'm not sure whether it's worth putting 5 it under the purview of the NRC. ' 6 MS. GARDE:- It's not. The NRC could not 7 come in -- if they did a lousy job on'a sex harassment I don't'mean to tell you what 8 case, the NRC couldn't 9 you can't do. 10 A VOICE: Go right ahead. l[ 11 MS. GARDE: But they couldn't. come in s. '12 and fine -- 13 MR. BLANCHE: Right. 14 MS GARDE: -- NU for doing a bad job on 15 a sex harassment complaint. On tile other hand, they do 16 rate them on the overall effectiveness of the ECP 17 program. And if that includes kind of on a macro 18 perspective the reputation they got by handling that I 19 sex harassment complaint, that's going.to be. reflected 20 in the confidence level. And that is being - looked at

O

. 21 - by'both Little' Harbor and the NRC. 22 MR. BLANCHE: Okay. But not necessarily ^ ll- - 23 i theiissues themselves of non-nuclear concerns. 24 1MS. GARDE: The.NRC doesn't have any f~Y [U + l POST REPORTING SERVICE n-HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 -+y.-e y y.-..,m . ~., gi g y w g ,w...p -9 .,9- ,7g_, ,-s.,ag-p.9 ,w_p%y--.y --s e 9 gi

34 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE-UNITS ([-- DECEMBER 17,' 1997 -r 1 authorityfto look at that. j 2 MR. BLANCHE:~ Okay. I'just wanted to 3 get a clarification myself.- 4 DR. TRAVERS: But I think that -- and, i 5 Billie, you can answer this. I think -- well, clearly,- -6 we don't have any jurisdiction on non-nuclear safety 7 -issues. But, you know, typically these things in a 8 culture as has existed at Millstone are so intermingled i I mean the issues that-affect one area very often 9 10 have a negative connotation in another area. -So I l 11 think what we've seen at least historically at it-12 Millstone are issues that traverse both safety and non-13 safety issues as they relate to HIRD. v 14 And I would expect if you see 15 improvements in the areas for which we have 16 jurisdiction in the nuclear

safety, that you would 17 probably

see, even though we're not going to have I

18 principle responsibility or really any legal authority 19 to evaluate them, improvements in other areas as well.

h' 20 It's just a culture thing, in ny experience.

It's much "o . 21 more-limited than what yours is. l:- 22 MR. BLANCHE: I think that was a very g: l 23 good clarification.- -Thank you. 24 CHAIRMAN LANNING: John? POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN,- CT (800).262-4102 sv -e-4in esS-e-

• W i'r Tr gi-e-g

35 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 MR. JOHN MARKOWICZ: John Markowicz, 2 Waterford. Could you again explain the relationship 3 between the attributes and the success criteria and 4 give the specific numbers for correlation? Because I 5 think, based on Rosemary's question, there's a little 6 confusion there. And it would help if we wrote them 7 down and looked at them from that perspective. 8 MR. BECK: Sure. 9 MR. MARKOWICZ: I also have a second 10 follow-up question. l'2 MR. BECK: Okay. l'd be happy to. Let 9 12 me just get the right piece of paper here. Let me (i 13 explain that the four Northeast Utilities success 14 criteria are those that they identified and where 15 they're focusing all their efforts. They were 16 developed independent of anything we did. But we felt 17 it was important to report on essentially the same 4 18 score card at least, not necessarily the same grades. 19 There's no relationship but what -- it turns out that f 20 they're of the same view we were or vice versa, if you C 21 'will, last Friday. They don't think they're ready with I 22 the ECP program and they don't think they're ready in g l 23 the area of their four success criteria, either. 24 Our specific attributes that roll up to f1 POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

~... -36 s .=- FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS ))){ DECEMBER-17, 1997

1

-their four -- let me start with the first one, is our-2 Attribute Number -- Numbers-2,.6, 7, 9 and 12. That 3 rolls up.co their willingness to raise safety concerns. 4 Their second one, their issues are the CAP program -- ~ 5 is a singular;on our case, No. 10. I c 6 Now, their third criteria, effectiveness 7 of the ECP, is also a single _ one in our Attribute No. 8 11. And then final, fourth

one, recognizing and-9 dealing with HIRD issues, involves a roll-up~ of our 10 Attributes 3, 4,

5, 8 and 9 again. [ g-. 11 MR. MARKOWICZ: So there was no roll-up g -rs. 12 for 1? Your i does not correlate to-anything that they ,d '13 have. That is what -- 14 MR. BECK: That's correct. 15 MR. MARKOWICZ: Okay. And by the 16 criteria that you. indicated, you evaluate Northeast 17 Utilities' success criteria 1 and 2 as ShT and 3 and 4 -1 18 as UNSAT?- 19 MR. BECK: That's correct. For restart 20 of a unit. 3 21 MR. MARKOWICZ: And as you indicated, l- .22 there-was similar-information -provided by Northeast j l 23 Utilities. And-that's what my-second, follow-up 24 . question was. 'Could you amplify that? There was a - f' : " N-]' iPOST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800)-262-4102 l -,-4,

~ = - .. ~. -.. - -. 37! FORUM RE: MILLSTONE. UNITS DECEMBER 17,_1997- -1 presentation by the. Vice' President, Dave Goebel, on 2 that same subject. And-Icthink the results are you are. 3 in mutual agreement as-to the status of the-four 4 success criteria? 5 MR. BECK:

Yes, It was Mike Brothers 6

who gave the presentation on these issues. And.their 7 conclusions were' the same as ours; namely,- the first -8 two they feel are satisfactory. They use different~- 9 terminology. They talk about meeting their 10 expectations. And -that the second two did not meet g 11 their expectations today. U 12 MR. MARKOWICZ: That's correct. But the 13 Chairman did say -- speak in terms of SAT and UNSAT. 14 Everybody had.to calibrate their presentations in real .15 time accordingly. 16 MR. BECK: Yes, we did. _17 MR. MARKOWICZ: And I think there was I - 18 also concurrence-when you made your presentation-to the -19 -I don't want to put words in your mouth. I guess ~ -20 let me rephrase the question. At the presentation, 1O! .: 21 were there questions asked by the Commissioner relative , f

22

.to this and what the NRC's position was,on this on these criteria? Maybe-- I'm '23 particular I 24 overstepping what I-thought I heard. [ _= POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800)-262-4102 w w ,.i.me. -,e -z-y- --+r sw-p er me y

38 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS [') DECEMBER 17, 1997 v-1 DR. TRAVERS: I believe the question 2 that I was asked at the table was whether we generally 3 agreed -- 4 MR MARKOWICZ: Right. That was it. - with what Little Harbor 5 DR. TRAVERS: 6 was finding. And we said a number of things at the -7 table. At the outset, we indicated that our program 8 and the way it's configured is relying quite heavily on 9 what Little Harbor is doing. They're there every day. 10 They're carrying out very extensive reviews, many of g 11 the details of which have been described at these 2 12

meetings,

(-} v 13 In addition to what Little Harbor is 14 doing, however, perhaps in a more limited fashion we're 15 carrying out some independent activities of the type 16 that Phil McKee has described and will continue to 17 describe as we go along, including our inspection of I. 18 the NRC audit plan that Little Harbor Consultants is 19 operating under. 20 We expressed to the Commission our O 21 general endorsement of the assessments that have been b 22 done to date by Little Harbor Consultants. I don't j 23 think I was asked soecifically whether we agreed on the 24 minimum, absolute minimum threshold for restart. And r~s POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 m n

..- -. -.y. 39- -FORUM RE:-MILLSTONE UNITS -( ); DECEMBER 17, 1997: II I'm not sureiwhere we stand on that. We're thinking 2 .about it. We've just sort of heard very recently -3 Little Harbor Consultants'. view of what they.would-4 -utilize and their recommendations to us on what the~ .5 minimum thresholds for success or acceptability perhaps 6 in.these key areas would be. 7 They bertainly sound like a reasonable 8 position at the outset. But, like I said, we've just - 9 - we've just seen them. We're in the midst of carrying -10 out some independent, if related, activities on our -g 11 own. And we'll be speaking certainly to our view on-0 12 those before much-longer. 13 MR. !!ARKOWICZ: Yes. I don't disagree 14 with the' answer to the questien. I was trying to allow 15 sort of a recreation of some of the answers that "16 occurred' last Friday for the benetit of the public. 17 Thank~you. I l 18 DR. TRAVERS: One thing perhaps we R19 should mention. And.that is simply

that, as is-l 20 typically the case, the transcript from the-Commission L

~ $L 21 meeting will'be available in the Public Document Room, i 22 as well as on the NRC Home Page. I don't -know:if it's-

E.

l-323 there yet. But if it's not,:it will be quite shortly. -24 So if anybody?want to read it, can -- I guess.it is POST ~ EPORTING SERVICE D HAMDEN,. CT (800) ~262-4102 l: L 2 m,

40 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 available. 2 MS. BASSILAKIS: No, not yet. 3 DR. TRAVERS: Oh. It will be. 4 MR. MARKOUICZ: Thank you. 5 MR. TOM McCORMACK: Good evening. it's 6 ' Tom McCormack of West Hartford. Does this need to be 7 on? 8 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Yes. Please use it, i 9 MR. McCORMACK: Okay. It's Tom 10 McCormack of West Hartford. I have a question -- Q 11 A VOICE: It's not on. tip 12 MR. McCORMACK: It says it's on. O 13 A VOICE: Red light. 14 MR. McCORMACK: There it is. 15 I have a question for Little Harbor. 16 You're under contract with Northeast Utilities to do 17 your job? Is that correct? 18 MR. SECK-Righc. 19 MR. McCORMACK: NU, Northeast Utilities, 20 pays you? f 21 MR. BECK: Yes. E 22 MR. McCORMACK: I lack the underctanding g l 23 -- it would be my assumptirn then that your job is to 24 ensure that Northeast Utilities meets the requirements O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 h

41 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 of the NRC for restart? Is that correct? Would that 2 be a fair description of your job, of your contract? 3 MR. BECK: No. The fair description of 4 our job is contained in our oversight plant which is 5 some 22 pages. And I'd recommend that if you haven't 6 had the opportunity to read it, you do so because it's 7 a very complicated assignment we've been given. And to 8 the best of our ability, it's reflected in executing 9 that oversight plan. 10 MR. McCORMACK: But basically your goal P 11 with your contract would be to ensure NU meets the NRC 0 12 requirements to restart. Would that be a fair 13 assumption? 14 DR. TRAVERS: No. 15 MR. McCORMACK: No. 16 DR. TRAVERS: Can I -- 17 MR. McCORMACK: I'm interested. 18 DR TRAVERS: Absolutely not. From my 19 perspective and I know Mr. Beck's, we approved the f. 20 plan, I'll tell you, of our assessment of their role, o 21 And it's simply as an independent contractor to oversee .l' 22 and assess the progress or lack of progress in the key g .l 23 areas that have been judged to be representative of 24 important, factors in assessing the Employee Concerns s U, POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 S

42 [ FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 l 1

Program, safety-conscious work environment and 2

reporting the findings and assessments, status of 3 activities to the NRC for their assessment in judging 4 whether or not restart should be authorized for any of 5 the three plants. 6 MR. McCORMACK: You know, maybe I'm just 7 incredibly thick here, but how can you say they're 8, independent when they're being paid by Northeast 9 Utilities? 10 DR. TRAVERS: Well -- R 11 MR. McCORMACK: This is like almost a 4 0 12 non-starter. You know? If I get a contract with 13 someone and someone pays me to do something, that's who 14 I'm responsible to, the person that pays me to perform 15 the work of my contract. I'm not -- I wouldn't be 16 responsible to some third party. They're responsible 17 to NU, not to you. Right? Because they have the 18 contract with NU. They don't have a contract with you, f 19 do they? 20 DR. TRAVERS: They do. O 21 MR. McCORMACK: You're paying no. l 22 No. In a second. What is your consideration for that { l 23 contract? What are you paying them? 24 DR. TRAVERS: Let me at the outset say (~) POST REPORTING SERVICE RAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i 1-. u,____._

-. -.= 43 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS i () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 I'm sure you're aware of it because you participated in 2 it. We've had several meetings to assess this issue up I 3 front just prior to the time I think Little Harbor was i 4 selected. And the order that NRC issued identified a 5 process that we would utilize. And that process is 6 quite simple, 7 It establishes an independent 8 contractor. And we've talked about whether and how 9 independent the contractor is at many meetings. You've 10 participated in them. I don't think we're going to 11 spend a lot of time tonight on it, frankly. But let me u() answer your question as succinctly as I can. 12 13 The independent contractor in this case 14 is paid by Northeast. They're working under the 15 auspices of an approved

plan, NRC approved

plan, 16 They're working as a result of us reviewing their 17 qualifications individually as we31 as organizational.

i 18 And their continued activities are monitored by NRC 19 evaluations and assessments. 20 So to the extent that that's the

case, O

21 to the extent you view that as independent or not, 22 those are simply the facts of how this process is .g l 23 working. We view it to date as one that's very 24 successful. We've used it in the past with great I'" POST REPORTING SERVICE RAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 . = - _ _.

44 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 success. There have been and there were at the ortset 2 strong criticisms from various people about this 3 process. But it's not something we're in the process 4 tonight of evaluating. 5 If you have any questions about the 6 presentation that was given tonight, ask them. If you 7 have more general questions about the process, stay and 8 at the end of this meeting we'll address them. 9 MR. McCORMACK: Oh, I certainly have 10 some direct questions. But, again, there's no contract 11 or consideration legally. And you don't have one with 12 these people. 13 DR. TRAVERS: That is -- 14 MR. McCORMACK: Let's leave it at that. 15 You have no contract. They work for Northeast 16 Utilities. Their obligation is to Northeast Utilities 17 and not to you. -I 18 Basically, what is the base line, nort 19 of what you start off at, as far as needing 20 improvement? If I was to ask the question how many 0 21 Northeast Utilities employees of 19 -- January 1, 1996 l 22 believed they could bring safety concerns to management I-l 23 without threat of retaliation or concern of future 24 promotion, what would-have been -- what would be the I) POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

45 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O occa"asa 1 1997 I answer to that percentage-wise, roughly, ball park? Or 2 if you want to pick some other date, if you know it 3 like in the middle of '96 or the middle of '95 or 4 somewhere along the line. 5 MS. GARDE: The base line numbers, as 6 far as I know there was no base line that measured that 7 until the Little Harbor first survey. Now, that said 8 when the NRC issued its October '96 order, it reached a 9 conclusion that whatever that percentage was of workers 10 who were not willing to raise safety concerns, it 11 wasn't good enough to meet the NRC's expectations. So 12 raw numbers or base line numbers were somewhat 13 irrelevant in October '96 because whatever that number 14 was, it wasn't enough. 15 The first time I know that that was 16 measured was when Little Harbor did their survey in 17 June, May and June of '90-- 18 A VOICE: June and July. 19 MS. GARDE: June and July of '97. f 20 MR McCORMACK: And what was the number 21 then in June of '97? I 22 MS. GARDE: We interviewed -- l_ 23 MR. BECK: In that interview, there were 24 about 239 people we talked to one on one and it was O V POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

- -. -. - -. -. - -. - - - ~. i 46 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS (s) DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 representative of the site organization and population l t 2 and the various organizational elements. Out of those l 3 239

people, 239 responses were "We would raise a

4 nuclear safety concern if 9e had one via one of the 5 available mechanisms, either to management, to the i 6 "mployee Concerns Program or to the NRC." So -- 7 MS GARDE: Or the newspaper. 8 MR. BECK: Or the -- well, no. They all 9 said one of those three. Some said, "We'd also go to 10 the newspapers." Q 11 MR. McCORMACK: So thero's no problem as U 12 of June of '97? 13 MR BECK: In June of '97, 100 percent 14 of the people who we asked the question said they would 15 raise nuclear safety concerns. 16 MR. McCORMACK: What are you sitting 17 there today for? Where's the room for improvement? I 18 You're at 100 percent to start? How can you improve? 19 MS. GARDE:

Well, it's a

lot more 20 complicated than -- O 21 MR. McCORMACK:

Well, let's --

I know i i 22 there was an NU internal thing some time back. Maybe g f 23 someone--from the audience could chip in. There was -- 24 there's been some internal NU questions on this and O-POST REPORTING SERVICE RAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 ~ r _m_ 7 .m.,,, -,_,m .m,..

?r l 47 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 there's been response rates. If somebody, someone from 2 the audience or NRC or someone might know what NU has 3 found themselves in past questions like this? 19o no 4 one knows what the level was to begin with? i 5 MR. McKEE: What was referred to was 6 Northeast Utilities has done in two areas done 7 surveys. They've done leadership surveys and they've l 8 done cultural surveys. I believe those do date back 9 not all the way earlier than '96 but the beginning of 10 '96. And part of the -- one of the indicators that 11 we're looking at is -- and they're looking at in 12 assessing what improvements are being made in those 13 areas. In leadership, the surveys measure a number of 14 factors. 15 MR. McCORMACK: But you're still saying 16 we have no starting point. There's total ignorance of 17 where this company started with employee safety 1. 18 concerns. 19 MR. McKEBx Well -- 20 MR. McCORMACK: Is there any starting O 21 point? Because how can you show improvement if you l 22 don't have a starting point to compare it to? It's l 23 just impossible. How do you do it? Someone explain, i 24 How do you know things have improved if you don't know POST REPORTING SERVICE L HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 I w y r-,- g--r,w-+m -w-. ., - =,. i--w- ~- t - - + -, - - - -.

48 4 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS t O ones"ana 17' 1997 I where things were to start? 2 MR. McKEE: One of the starting points 3 is that if you'd road -- and I don't have it in front 4 of me, is a report that was done by Millstone's 5 independent review group, which was led by John Hannon. 6 And that identifico, I think, seven, you know, root 7 causes, although it doesn't -- it doesn't do surveys in 8 numbers. I think it details fairly well problems and 9 issues associated with the safety-conscious work 10 environment at Millstone. And that has been factored P 11 in and those issues have been factored in to -the ?! 12 evaluation and the attributes that we now have and our 13 assessing was discussed by Little Harbor. 14 MR. McCORMACK: That's -- 15 MR. McKEE: Although there's not 16 specific numbers and nine out of ten or 99 out of 100, 17 which is extremely difficult

factors, as we've l

18 discussed before in this area, to kind of measure on 19 those kinds of statistics. I think there is a lot of 20 information that gives past problems and issues and is f 21 based on our measures today, how we're noting that b 22 there's improvement. _g l 23 MR, McCORMACK:

Okay, I would just like 24 to say this to close on this issue, I've had to write POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

^

l 49 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O osca"8sa 17' 1997 e 1 performance objectives before for my place of 2 employment. And if I presented to my employer what 3 you're -- this group and what you're saying to me, my 4 boss would have simply

said, "Mr. McCormack, where did i

5 you get your education? Dc you like working here?" 6 Decause you cannot say you've improved if you -- to 7 some "X" point if you don't know where you started. 8 That's how you write perfonnance objectives. And this 9 is all a bunch of talk about nothing if you don't have 10 a starting point. 11 So let's put it this way. You think 239 V 12 are already there? If you think -- if 90 percent of 13 the people you interview say everything is okay, will 14 you say things are okay to the NRC? 15 MS. GARDE: Okay. That's why I said 16 you're oversimplifying this issue; because we have just 17 got done telling you and the Commission that we do not 18 think things are okay and ready for restart on the 19 issue of a safety-conscious work environment, f 20 notwithstanding the fact that 239 of 239 people said O 21 they would raise a nuclear safety concern somewhere, b 22 Because it's a much more complicated issue in terms of g l 23 dealing with that kind of environment than whether or 24 not the -- an individual worker, when confronted with '13 L' POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

_ _. _. ~. _ -. ~ -_, 50 FORUM RE: MILLS 7ONE UNITS i () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 .an individual nuclear safety problem, would raise that l r 2 somewhere to ensure that it's fixed. You don't want-to' l 3 have to have people making. those kind of individual j [ 4 decisions. So it doesn't -- it isn't that simple. It 5 just isn't that easy to quantify it. l 6 MR. McCORMACK: I understand what you're j i 7 saying. But I think if you don't quantify, you have 8 absolutely nothing because it just -- that's not the 9 way performance objectives work. 10 On your interviews that you're going to r g 11 be doing, you said you're going to be selecting the l # 12 employees? On what basis are you going to -- what ~ 13 criteria are you going to use to select those 5 14 employees? i 15 MR. BECK: So that we have a 16 representative sample of the organization. 17 MR. McCORMACK: Okay. What happens if l 18 you have some employees that would like to come talk to 19 you? How are you going to allow for them to come to 20 talk.to you~during this series of interviews or aren't. O 21 you? I 22 MR. BECK: As we did the last. time, [- 23 anybody who wants to volunteer, we will interview them 24 as well. POST, REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT. (800) 262-4102 1 I .,.~.m. . ~.. -,. - - - .. _.. ~, _ .. -, ~ . _.. _ _, -_..-,,.-u..

. _ _. ~.. _ _ _ _ _ _. _. _. _ _. -. o I 51 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS l 1(]) DECEMBER 17, 1997, 1 MR. McCORMACK: Okay. Thank you. 2 And just to close, I'd like to say that } r 3 off the Web this week I printed 26 pages of violations i 4 at Millstone. I don't think any of them refers to what 5 we've been discussing here. And let's get on to the 6 real business shortly please. 7 (Applause) 8 MR. McKEE: Are there any more questions. t 9 on this topic? P 10 MR. DAVID SILK: Yes. David

Silk,

- g 11 Stonington. I think I might have -brought this up y 12 before when you people first started. But can you tell 13 me, is it true that on a number of your attributes you l 14 depend almost entirely on interviews with employees? - 15 A VOICE: Let me take a look here. i 16 MR. SILK:.Well, I was -- 2, 6, 7, 9 and-17 12 are the ones I was thinking of. l l 18 MR, McKEE: Can you repeat the question 19 please? 20 MR. SILK: Does-your evaluation or your O . 21 monitoring of many of the attributes depend entirely on g-t 22 interviews with~ employees? } ll 23 MR. - BECK: Certa' inly a lot of the - 24 attributes -involve interviews with employees but not POST! REPORTING-SERVICE' HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 3 -ii,-e.e.. ,m.,.-.+-fw,wy-g.,.,-.p.pr.#,rmp e ---.,+r, ,,-..n--,... -%.-wa- ,r. .,w.. we%w-h c r+ ,n .a,,-m-i.,-... Un..,us=<w

52 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 exclusively. For example, Attribute No. 2, while it 2 uses some results from the structured interviews, also 3 talks about walk-ins to our office, people who have 4 something they think we should know, and also follow-up 5 with Employee Concerns Program reviews. The very 6 nature of the attribute itself certainly requires that 7 it reflect what people think. In that case, employee 8 perceptions are the policy and its implementation. The 9 only way to find out what an employee's perception is 10 is to talk to e.bem or look at results of surveys, et g 11 cetera. So -- 12 MR. SILK I agree. 13 MR. BECK: So it's just the nature of 14 it. 15 MR. SILK: But I guess what I'm 16 wondering is given all the discretion that you use and 17 your reputation, I

guess, for holding things I

18 confidential, do you think that employees -- and given 19 your methods, your scientific

sampling, but do you f

20 think that employees are entirely open when they come O 21 to you? I 22 MR. BECK: That's certainly a valid g l 23 question. Are you getting an honest response when you 24 talk with people? POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN. CT (800) 262-4102

53 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 MR. SILK: Yes. Yes. Given the history 2 of harassment, intimidation, et cetera. 3 MR. BECK: I think so. The protections 4 that we've built into the system we use to select l 5 people, number one, and just the experience we had in 6 that last set of interviews. All of us here at the 7 table did, you know, 30 or so or more. And you can 8 tell in the course of an hour or an hour and a half of 9 probing questions of someone end their responses, their 10 body language and their behavior in general whether or Q 11 not they're telling the truth, frankly. Now, there are

1. {}

some folks who might really be able to slip one by you. 12 13 But I don't think so. So I had a very good feeling 14 personally about the quality of the responses we were 15 getting in those structured interviews. 16 We choose to use structured interviews, 17 by the way, rather than a survey where somebody just i 18 fills out a piece of paper specifically fo; the purpose I, 19 of getting one on one so you can get as good a reading f 20 of someone's sincerity and feelings as you possibly 0 21

can, k*

22 MS. GARDE:

Well, I think the other 5'

l 23 thing is that that, what John just described, was the 24 structured interview process. But we have a tremendous 7x POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

54 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 amount. of day-to-day, you

know, hour-by-hour 2

interaction with a lot of employees -- I won't say 3 every employee that. has an incident going on or a 4 problem comes to us. But between our review of the 5 things in the ECP files and what goes there, our review 6 of how they're handling the problem

areas, our 7

oversight of the Executive Review Board's handling of 8 disciplinary actions, and our interactions with walk-9 ins by employees who are dissatisfied with some aspect 10 of something that's going on, I think that we have a 11 very good handle on what's going on on the site 12 generally, including where there are still problem 13 areas and how those things are resolved. 14

Now, those are interviews with 15 employees; that is, they come in and say, "We need to 16 talk to you about this, that or the other" and you sit 17 down and you talk to them and then you both check that 18 out.

And that's happened a lot. So I think we have a I 19 good handle on that. It's not -- we're not just 20 relying on our structured interviews that were 21 conducted in the summer to reach our opinion. l 22 MR. SILK: I'm sorry. I have to depart g l 23 from what I was -- my path there to say that it seems, 24 as I have expressed before, that you are very, very O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT _(800) 262-4102

i 55 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 t 1 intimately involved in the process there and I think 2 very importantly involved. And I wonder what happens 3 when you leave. You have become a very important part 4 of the process, f 5 But be that as it may, I would suggest 6 that when you interview 239 people and you get 100-7 percent positive

responce, that that in itself.ib 8

reason to question the kind of response you're getting. 9 MR. BECK: We didn't know what the 10 answer was going to be when we asked the question. But j 11 we felt we had to ask that fundamental "Will you raise 3(') 12 a nuclear safety issue via some mechanism?" %J 33 You'll recall also there were a number 14 of people who we interviewed -- and I don't recall the 15 statistics right now -- but who were uncomfortable in 16 doing so and who would use perhaps only the last resort 17 in doing so. So it didn't say that they would all jo I 18 to their supervisor with a nuclear safety concern but 19 that they would raisv. it via one of the -- f 20 MR. SILK: Yes. I understand. They had 0-21 an' option, a. I 22 MR. BECK: And, you know, a lot of the g 'l 23 issues that need to be worked on have to do with the -- 24 the ideal environmsnt would be that if you have a 0 -POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 y n v .r .,_r--

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I i 56 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O oncesana 17 199> 1

concern, you raise it with your supervisor with the 2

expectation the supervisor or management is going to 3 deal with it and deal with it satisfactorily and 4 rationally and rapidly and to your complete 5 satisfaction. That certainly is not the case yet 6 today. 7 Dut that aspect, it appears to us, is 8 getting better. 9 MR. SILK: I wonder -- you did mention 10 that you hadn't used, for some reason, secret balloting 11 or whatever you want to call it, secret an 12 opportunity for an employee to come in secret. But I 13 wonder whether that wouldn't be a good way -- a good 14 thing to use, at least in addition to your interviews. 15 MR. BECK: The company has done surveys 16 that are essentially anonymous. They don't know who 17 filled out the survey results. And we have studied I 18 those very carefully and the results that came out of 19 that. And I think the process, certainly on the last 20 few they've done, has been essentially a sound one and O 21 one on which you can rely on the answers that they got. l 22 So we're not doing it. You can survey people to death. g [ 23 We think that our structured interviews are necessary. 24 And to the extent that we can rely on other data, we O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

I 57 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS i () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 are doing so and it seems to be fairly complementary as 2 far as the results are concerned, too. 3 MR. SILK: Okay. I just -- one parting 4 thought. If I were an employee of NU today and you 5 were interviewing me, I bet I could bluff you. 6 MR. BECK: Would you like to be 7 interviewed? 8 CHAIRMAN LANNING: All right. We're 9 going to try to wind up this session. This gentleman iO over here raised his hand. Yes, you. Please, sir. 11 A VOICE: What I'm talking about -- 12 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Please use the 13 microphone. 14 A VOICE: Tnis one? 15 CHAIRMAN LANNING: No. You have to turn 16 it on. 17 A VOICE: This one is -- 18 A VOICE: There's a switch. It works. I 19 A VOICE: Okay. Okay. I got you. 20 I'm wondering about

there, who is 21 responsible --

22 A VOICE: Turn it on. There's a little I l 23 switch. 24 A VOICE: It's on. O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 P -y.. ..n

i 58 i FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS. O oscsansa 12 1997 l 1 A VOICE: It's on. l 2 A VOICE: Is yours off, Wayne? 3 CHAIT:4AN LANNING: Yes. 4 A VOICE: Hello? 5 A VOICE: There you go. 6 A VOICE: Okay. On all personnel at the 7 nuclear power, are they responsible, each individual, 8 are they responsible for their own actions or is this 9 governed by a group supervision or superintendent? Are l 10 they responsible for their own actions? 11 MS. GARDE: You mean each of the - do you mean each -- is each employee responsible under the 12 13 regulatory authorities? 14 A VOICE: For his own actions. I worked 15 at a power house and my job code was we were 16 responsible for our own work. Now, do they have the 17 same thing over the nuclear or is it governed by a 18 group supervisor or -- 19 MS. GARDE: No. There is individual f 20 accountability at the site on a number of levels. That 21 is nuclear workers, if they're QC inspectors and they l c 22 sign a

document, they do have individual g

[- 23 responsibility. I mean obviously they're supervisors. 24 But there is individual accountability under the laws h' POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 e-w -Q -g-4- v +g-y q -n--w-m-m w 4 m

59 i FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 I 1 to each and every employee. And that's reiterated by 2 NU management to its employees. The company is trying + e l 3 - to upgrade individual accountability issues And that-4 has been one of the root causes that has led to some of 5 their problems. And they're working on that. 6 A VOICE: Okay. Thank you. i 1 7 CHAIRMAN LANNING: One last question? i 8 MS. BASSILAKIS: No way. No. YoJ. can't l 1 9 cut us'off. You can't. 10 CHAIRMAN LANNING: The gentleman back P 11 thero in the back. Yes, sir? O 12 MR. AL CIZEK: Okay. My name is Al [} 13 Cizek. I live in Higganum, Connecticut. And basically l 14 I have a couple of questions pertaining to NU's success t 15 criteria No. 4. And that really surprises me in L 16 certain ways-and,

yet, in other ways it doesn't

- 17 surprise me at all. l_ 18 MS. GARDE: What surprises you? 19 MR. CIZEK: The fact that NU is having-4 20 difficulty meeting their success criteria No. 4, a O 21 - basically the identification and I'll say resolution of [ 22 instances involving HIRD, et cetera, et cetera.. g I-was just thinking about this to.myself ~ [ 12 3 - 24 here. And at first-I was going-to ask you if.you had h 1 l POST REPORTING SERVICE 1 HAMDEN, CT--(800) 262-4102 a F 'Md M

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r L i 60 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS i (])- DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 an inkling as to why that might be happening. And I l 2 realize that your position here is not to propose l 1 3 recommendations or solutions. But I think it would be 4 a fair question to ask, perhaps, why do you think this 5 is still occurring? l 6 And I thought it over in my mind and a [ '7 couple of things just jumped out which really aren't / 8 too scientific but mostly just common sense. And I 9 came up with three possible I'll say reasons in my- - i 10 mind, very general, global. l g 11 And the first one was they don't know S 12 how to. And after thinking about that for just a few { 13 seconds, obviously I think they know how to. They've i 14 had enough of training. They've brought in people, et i 15 cetera, et cetera. So it's not a question of do they 16 know how to identify these particular problems and do l 17 they know how to address these problems. l 18 And then I thought about it again and I i -19 said, well, is it a case of perhaps they know how but -i J 20 - they don't have the ability; that is, intellectually l O 21 this.is beyond their capacity to deal with. Although i r p - I'd like to -feel that's the case. I think that the 22 company has the ability to address this. 23 24 So if they do know how and they have the POST REPORTING SERVICE ' IUu4 DEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l ~ yv-.- w w r. ...,,r,,7._, ., -,,,,,,w e- ,m., ..~m ,.y.,e ,---c. -na-- .,,m.cn,#,r%.c.mm.,1--.~,w .ym, .,v..,ww,-,v.---wnm.,v,-,w.,n

61 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O osc8"aen 17 1997 1 ability, the last reason I can come up with is that 2 they still do not want to address the problem. And if 3 I think back just a couple of years ago, there was a 4 certain tone established by the higher levels of 5 management. If you go back a few years, you see like 6 the John Opica type level and the Directors at the 7 units. And that tone clearly established an 8 environment which nurtured or created and nurtured this 9 environment, a certain environment. And, granted, some 10 of those people are no longer here. i 11 But now I look back as to some of the u 12 people that are in I'll say similar spots today and I 13 look at the selection of Mike Brothers for the Safety-14 Conscious Work Environment. And I'm not going to argue 15 with Bruce Kenyon that people can't change.

However, 16 he has certain baggage that comes along with him.

And 17 he could be the perfect person today for that job, but 18 the baggage alone still nurtures that old environment. 19 I look at Dave Goebel and his position f 20 as the Vice President of Oversight. And clearly, he is O 21 the wrong person for that. I understand that people I 22 have had trouble going through the layers of g l 23 management, have gone to Dave Goebel directly and still 24 haven't gotten any resolution on certain items, b" POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

-t 5 L l 62 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS t -(): DECEMBER 17, 1997 [ i i I look at Bruce Kenyon. He kind of 2 stepped in it with regards to the MOV situation back in 3 September. And I understand now that he really wants f 4 to be removed from the whole situation or stay as 5 distant as possible as:he can, j i 6 Knowing that -- and I just look at two j 7 people as an example -- I don't believe that NU is 8 establishing the tone that needs to be established to I i 9 create the appropriate or this new environment. And I l 10 wonder what your thoughts are on that. first of

all, 0

11 MS. GARDE: You've 2 '~ 12 welcome back. It's nice to see you again. l 13 You've raised a number of very f 14 thoughtful points that I think, you know, reflect your 15 Lown understanding of the environment that developed 16 over-years at the site. And I think that you certainly l i 17 accurately represent, for example, the three issues you 18 saidi is that they don't know how, that is they don't I 19 have the skills, management or supervision do not have T Do they not have, you know, the ability or [ 20 the skills. ..O' 21 do they just.not have the willingness to deal with this 1 22 issue? 1 l.-

23

.I- 'think that what we have seen recently 24 -- and I mean recently, within the last few months -- POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN,.CT (800) 262-4102 _..,__..--..._-e.__-.-....

i 63 ?ORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 is the company making a concerted effort to ensure that 2 management and supervision has the necessary training. 1 3 That

was, as I'm sure you

remember, one of our 4

recommendations because you should not assume they have 5 the know-how. 6 Managing under 10 CFR 50.7 is not 7 necessarily intuitive. You'd like it to be, but it's 8 not. And what constitutes legally protected activity 9 and what constitutes retaliat. ion is a fairly 10 complicated hurdle to get out there. Once you get out 11 there, people get it. And that's now happening. 12 The company is offering this new ) 13 training program, one that you didn't have or wasn't 14 available when you were there. That's taking managers 15 and supervisors, first level up, through a series of 16 -classes, including case studies based on actual cases 17 of how supervisors make mistakes and how they get dealt 18 with. I think that that is giving some change -- a 19 bringing some change. 20 On the issue of willingness, that's O 21 going to have to be decided and pointed out and acted l 22 out on an-individual supervisor-by-supervisor level, at g [ 23 individual levels And I think what we are seeing now - 24 - and that's the reason they're in the red -- is there ()' POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

1 64 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS (] DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 are still supervisors who are exhibiting an 2 unwillingness, whether it's because intentionally or 3 unintentionally, an unwillingness to get with the new 4 program. And that's now coming out. It's not 5 acceptable to have that happening now, which is why 6 they're in the red. 7 Now, going on to your observations about 8 the three individuals, my only comment is that Mike 9 Brothers has been the one who has himself said over and 10 over again "I come to this job with a lot of baggage. R 11 And I don't know if I'm the right person for the job." h 12 And he's giving it his best try. 13 You're right.- He comes with a lot of 14 baggage and he has -- there's a lot of skepticism by 15 employees on whether or not he's the right person for 16 the job. I can tell you that I think he's giving an 17 honest try. He's still making mistakes. And this ( 18 isn't an easy -- this is not an easy job for anybody. 19 I'm not going to comment on the other 20 two. But I think your observation on Mr. Brothers is 21 appropriate. He did come with a lot of baggage to that l 22 job. And I hope that in his adopting a new philocophy, g l 23 he leads the way for others. And I hope that it is a 24 sincere philosophy. (3 V POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

? I i 65 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS i f [- ' DECEMBER 17, 1997 j 1 I don't - know if that answers-your i 'i 2 questions. 3 MR. CIZEK: I'll just pick up on two 4 points and I'll be fast. Getting back to Mike I 5 Brothers, you indicated that he is -- he's trying.--And 6 at this point in time, of course, I cannot directly 7 ' assess that myself. And what I've heard is that his 8 rapport or relationship,

rather, with his direct 9

reports is -- is -- well, the way he wants it to be, 10 It's a pretty rough style or tough style. l 11 And I guess the point I'm trying to make 12 is that 1.e's made a comment that he's aware of that and j{) but the people that report to him are big boys, 13 14 They can handle it. 15 And I guess what I'm proposing to you is I 16 thht whether he wants to or not, he is establishing a 17 certain tone with his direct reports. And his direct I 18 reports are basically going to say, "Well, if he's my -19 mentor, how will I handle my relationship with others?" 20 And I think that the same behaviors which existed in o 21 the - past with him perhaps are still in place and being l: L22 shown to others. ll1 1 } 23 MS. GARDE: We're spending a lot of time-24 -watching over Mike's shoulders and have included in our ' POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l i l 4 .-,,e -.,+.,,-,1, ...-...y -.-.y.. ,,.._%-r .,,-y,-,,-r, ...-..,+,,v.,,. -,,,m-,-,-,--,.m.-~,- .m.--- ,-,.,,,,..-.--m.,

i i 66 PORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O orc ="a"a 17' 1SS' 1 assessment a number of incidents, good and bad,-that f 2 'he's been involved in. Our. concerns are known-We've 3 expressed them to the company at these public meetings. 4 We've expressed them in our documents. We'll just have i 5 to cee. I mean I can't -- the example.that you ghve I 6 don't know of. I haven't seen him I have not 7 personally observed Mike Brothers handling his direct l 8 reports in a way that I can sit here in a public i 9 -meeting and say was unacceptable. l 10 I can tell you that Mike Brothers has t R 11 made mistakes, which he has ow. led up to and which he 1 D 12 has said he's made mistakes on over the last six months 4 13 which he's working on. Does that mean he's there yet? 14 No. Does that mean the other supervisors at the plant 15 are all there yet? No. There's growth and there's 16 good things happening and there are still_some bad 17 things happening. I 18 But to blanketly say that Brothers is 19 the wrong person for the job because of his baggage-I 20 think would also be a mistake. Kenyon made that o. -- 21 selection. And I've seen some things frem Mr. Brothers .r.. 22 _that are exceptional behaviors. I've seen some things [ 23 from Mr. Brothers that have been mistakes. I've been 24 ' impressed that he's been able to admit _those mistakes i POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 .,. _.. _, ~.., ~,,, _ _. -... _.. _, ..,. ~

1 67 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS DECEMBER 17,_1997 i 1 1 and work on those behaviors. He's not completely there f 2 yet. 3 MR. CT!EK: And my other comment was f 4

r. hat -- or is that -- simply thc'-

.ere seems to be a 5 break in the .tink. The company is trying to change. s 6 their behavior and how they look at HI&D or identify 1 7 .and address it. And it's interesting -- granted, this l 8 kind of grabbed me in a certain way because of my 9 background at NU. But you said, well, some of the 10 supervisors are still not getting it. My reaction to 11 ,that is no, ou don't understand. It's not the -g-12 superviscr not Setting it. It's the supervisor's 13 supervi' sors, management, whether a manager or whatever, 14 that's not getting it. 15 MS. GARDE: Okay. 16 MR. CIZEK: Because I believe if -- if 17 the next level up was getting it, surely the supervisor l 18 would-get it because he is the easiest guy to beat up. g I f. 19 I mean -- 20 MS, GARDE: Okay. Al, on that I think i 21 you're wrong. And I wish you could come back and see l 22 -things that are ' happening there because many of the

[

23 ' incidents _that-are now being identified as unacceptable 24

incidents are being caught by upper management.

POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN,-CT (800)-262-4102 o L p. __.,.-.2

68 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS. -(] DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 They're happening at the first and second level 2 s'ipervisor. But I'm very pleased to c*e upper 3 management stopping actions being taken against 4 employees by first and second-level supervisors. You 5 didn't see that when you were there. You aidn't see 6 that three months ago. 7 What we now see is senior executives, 8 senior managers, coming in, stopping by the Little 9 Harbor office and

saying, "I

want to tell you this 10 before somebody else does. An incident just happened g 11 in my department. Someone took action which I think c 12 might have been considered retaliatory. I'm stopping 13 it, freezing it in place. I'm investigating it. And 14 I'm going to change -- turn this around because I see 15 that there's a chilling effect. They don't get it." 16 You didn't see that when you were there. That's too 17 bad. This it Lecember of '97. It should have been 18 happening in the spring of '97. It didn't. It's now 19 starting to happen, fust now. That's why this is red, it hasn't happened long enough to 20 becaust it'e not o 21 be in place cnough for us to say, "Yes, they're there. 1 22 They're over the hurdle." l 23 What you saw and what you just described 24 is exactl'j the way it was when you were there. That's POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l

69 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS ll$ DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 starting to change, not in every department, but it's 2 starting to change. 3 MR. CIZEK: Okay. Thanx you. 4 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Su st.n? 5 MS. SUSAN PERRY LUXTON: Hi. Pow, I'm 6 glad you're going to give people a chance now because 7 we haven't heard from Little Harbor in two months. 8 DR. TRAVERS: We've been giving you a 9 chance. 10 MS. PERRY LUXTON: And I'm glad you're p 11 continuing, I'm glad you're not cutting anybody off u(') 12 now.

Because, remember, they didn't come here at the v

13 November public meeting. We haven't seen them in a 14 couple of months now. 15 CHAIRMAN LANNING: And you were late <g coming to the meeting. I acknowledged that they're '/ j here because they weren't here. We promised they'd be l 1e here. And before you came in, I asked if there were i. 19 any other questions. There was one hand up at the f 20 time. And so that's why we're trying to move on. O 21 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Good. Thank you. 1 22 Thank you. Good. Good. But, you know, whatever gets 5 l 23 said provokes more thoughtful questions. People 24 deserve to be able to ask the questions. m POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

70 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS ,s ( 1 DECEMBER 17, 1997 x/ 1 Okay. I didn't see your presentation. 2l I'm very upset I missed it. But I don't know what went 3 on at the Commission meeting. Al) I kaow is the letter 4 I received from the Union of Concerned Scientists, 5

• hich I faxed to you guys today.

So you've seen it. 6 I'm very concerned. I'm very troubled 7 by this letter because -- and I'm going to read a bit 8 because maybe they haven't seen it. And this concerns 9 you also because they are your oversight and you said - 10 - Dr, Travers said -- Dr. Travers explained during his g 11 presentation the NRC is relying heavily on Little e r^g 12 Harbor's input. '\\ ) 13 So this is from Dave Louchbaum from the 14 Union of Concerned Scientists to Marty Bowling. And 15 I'm just going to read excerpts now because Marty 16 Bowling asked him to give his impressions of the 17 Commission meeting on Friday last. l 18 "I remain concerned that Little Harbor 19 Consultants appears to be sugar-coating its asseusment f 20 when updating the Commission. For example, consider .o 21

the, quote,

' red light' Little Harbor assigned l 22 regarding NU's response to harassment, intimidation, g 5 l 23 retaliation and discrimination events." 24 "Mr. Beck spent more time praising NU POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

~_ _ _.. _.. -.. . -. _... ~.. _ _.. _ _. _ _... _ 71-FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS: DECEMBER-17,-1997- -I for. its remedial ' actions; than explaining why Little_ 2 Harbor arrived at that negative conclusion in the first t 3 p3 ace. Mr. Beck seemed to' be paving the way.-for 4 justifying'why. the indicator will be yellow or-green-l 5 next time rather than explaining why it is red now. 6 It's Little Harbor's role to assess the current safety. 7 culture at Millstone. NU can speculate on the future 8 improvements as it sees fit." 9 This is not the first time that we have 10 had to say wo Little Harbor "It's not your role to be g 11 the cheerleader for NU. It's your role to oversee and 11 12 to present the facts to NU." And when I see that -- 13 we've brought this up numercJs times to Mr. Beck, And j 14 this really troubles me that this is still going on. 15 Please explain that, Mr. Beck. 16 MR. BECK: Before you came, Susan, I 17 indicated at the beginning of our presentation tonight l-18 before I went through essentially the presentation'we 19 gave to the Commissioners that we've got 15 minutes to 20 present whatever we're going to present. As I'm sure co-21 you're aware, we_have done an immense amount of work 2 - :g: - 22 and, if given the_ opportunity, could probably put on a llL . 23 . presentation for a week that-would get into an infinite- ~ 24 amount of detail. That's not what the Commission wants POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 .a. . ~. c m

_.. ~ 72 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS -({- DECEMBER 17,'1997- { 1 to hear. 'They want to hear the essence of-what we've 2 -gotLto say. 3 It 'would have been -- without getting. I 4 into Mr. Louchbaum's views of what we had'to say, I'd 5 recommend that when you get the opportunity, you review' 6 the transcript and form your own opinion about' the 7 impact of the words that we used and the slides that we 8 presented, first of

all, rather than rely on a'

+ 9 secondhand opinion from someone else. 10 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay. 11 MR. BECK: It would have been -- first 12 of all, let me talk about the red. Red is red. It's 13 Unsatisfactory. We had two areas that were 14 Unsatisfactory. We said it very clearly. And that's 15 exactly.what wo think they are today, unsatisfactory. 16 Having said

that, it's also-fair, I

17

think, to add.that we have seen some movement in spite

.fl 18 of that lack of satisfaction and~ identified what that 19 movement was. 20 Clearly in the area of harassment, O 21 intimidation, retaliation and discrimination, events at (l 22 thel site have'Enot been-good,- period, unequivocally. g_ l 23 It's_- red, red, red. That_ speaks very loudly-for our 24 view of where'they are today-POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800)_262-4102 .-,-r -=,4 ~...

~ 73 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS ,-(j DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 It would be, as I said earlier, unfair 2 to leave it there because they have also been doing 3 some things that show signs of improvement, that show 4 signs of waking up, as Billie has gone into in some 5 detail just a few minutes with regard to reaching a 6 better understanding. 7 There are freshening signs of a new 8

culture, if you will.

But they've got a long way to 9 go. I can't say it any plainer than that. If Mr. 10 Louchbaum chooses to interpret our saying something on P 11 one side of the issue or the other side of the issue as 6 (~3 12 being unbalanced or unrealistic, I think that's really \\_) 13 unfortunate because we're trying to give as balanced a 14 picture as we possibly can. 15 MS. GARDE: Susan, the other thing is we 16 were certainly prepared to answer with any level of 17 detail that Chairman Jackson inquired about and fully 1 18 expected to be cross examined by her about what was the 19 basis of our red racing and had practiced that the f 20 night before and gone over all that. She didn't ask us 21 a single question. And since she didn't ask us 8 22 anything and she's looking at her watch and we're 5 l 23 already -- you know, the company took twice as long as 24 they were already there. It just wasn't appropriate (~h POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

r 174 FORUM'RE: i4ILLSTONE UNITS t () DECEMBER 17,: 1997 s forcus to say, "And, oh,.let-me tell:you.why_it's red." J 1 ~2 And I really was very surprised at Mr. -3 - Louchbaum's negative view of our presentation because, [ -4 -frankly, I think if he had criticisms -- all due-5 respect to the agency -- they should have been to the 6 Chairman. 7 She didn't ask any questions. We gave our 8 . report. It speaks for itself. It's minus yellow, 9 'minus red. She didn't ask any questions. 10 DR. TRAVERS: Maybe I should -- maybe I [ j ' 11 should make a comment. 12 MS. GARDE: One other

thing, Dr.

13 Travers. She had all this stuff beforehand. It was 14 very_ obvious that she had read our MOV report, that she 15 had read the training report, other -- when you read i 16 the transcript, you will see she was prepared. She 17 knew her stuff. So it isn't like she was sitting there l .18 ignorant of what we had done because she asked the 19 company some. questions about it. But when it came to us, she didn't ask us anything. 20 - O- ?21 DR. TRAVERS:

Well, she's not ignorant

'22 of-what's going on. And I can tell you that this

[

23 - meeting,'for just a data point, went about three hours 24 - and. 40 minutes. It's perhaps one of the longest ' ~ . POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800)~262-4102 4 p g7--+-wr t=te 9C'- C"-- t-m r- '-P

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.~ .~. _....... _ _ - -. - _. -.. _. 75 FORUM'RE: MILLSTONE UNITS DECEMBER 17, 1997. 'l = Commission meetings that.I've ever seen in my'20-plus 2 years of experience at NRC. And we've been doing them 3 .every-few months. 4 As Ms. Garde pointed out, the Chairman 5 has been ' receiving background information, not only- '6 from Little Harbor in their background books before -7 these meetings, but they're getting their staff and-8 sometimes themselves are being briefed before these 9 meetings by us. So we've been trying to keep the 10 . Commissioners and their staffs very much informed on =R. 11 some of what necessarily can't be gone over at these 12 . meetings because of reasonable time constraints.- I 13 mean three hours and 40 minutes for there -people who 14 have to deal with hundreds of other issues in any given l 15 week is a lot of time, And they continually emphasi::e 1G the importance of Millstone, not only at these meetings 17 but to us on a regular basis as far as our role in 18 carrying out oversight activities. 19 So I will just-take and point out some 3 .f- 'n addition-to perhaps some of the 20 clarification i O-21 concern that's been raised about the number -of .l: '22 questions thato were or-weren't-asked at this meeting. t g=

l 23 There's-a-lot ~-of interest' in what's. going into 24 Millstone.

'There's a lot-of interest in the details

O4 POST REPORTING SERVICE

HAMDEN, CT- -(800) 262-4102

i 76-FORUM-RE: MILLSTONE UNITS ()] DECEMBER 17, 1997-1 that :. underlie the summaryL status report' that Little-- 4 2 Harbor _ presented'very eloquently, _: I thought, and very ] 3 balanced. And-that information_is getting through. 4 MS. GARDE: But, now, Mr-. Louchbaum 5 hasn't seen any of those. He's gotten the reports,.but-6 7 MS, PERRY LUXTON: Well, he's seen the 8 MOV and the -- 9 MS. GARDE: Yes. He's gotten those 10

reports, But he hasn't been-to any of the other --

-Q -11 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Right. 12 MS GARDE: -- presentations or meetings 13 nor am I aware of that he's asked us any of those -14 questions. And if he could, he would be entitled to 15 the answers just like you would be. And we're prepared 16 to answer those questions here tonight. 17 I think his criticisms were unfair. And I 18 I,

too, would be interested in your

-- your -review 19 . after you see -- read the transcript. If you still r -20 - think we look like cheerleaders, then I'd like to-know-O ..l 21 that opinion. ~ ( f22 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay. . Well, I'm Ll 23 - going to-say---- can you understand how concerned I was '24 - when I' read thia-letter? -:(] POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 =

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77 7s. FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS tJ' DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 MS. GARDE: Yes. Oh, absolutely. 2 MS. PERRY LUXTON: I was really upset. 3 MS. GARDE: You should have seen him. 4 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Well, that's why I 5 wanted you to see the letter. That's why I sent you 6 the letter. 7 MS. GARDE: I appreciate it. 8 MS. PERRY LUXTON: So this is good. I'm 9 glad. Because you have to understand we're reading 10 from the newspaper here. We, not being there -- I did 11 call for the transcript. They're sending the c (~) 12 transcript. And I look forward to getting the V 13 transcript. So thanks for clarifying the whole thing. 14 But one more question I have for Little 15 Harbor. This regards the two incidents I need to have 16 clarified what's going on, A month ago or so we got a 17 call from Mike Brothers about the Quality Assurance l 18 Inspector problem with the 10 people that were going to I 19 walk out f 20 MS. GARDE: Right. C and the labor 21 MS. PERRY LUXTON: -l 22 issue or whatever. = 5' l 23 MS. GARDE: Right. 24 MS. PERRY LUXTON: What is going on with ("T POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

5 '78 FORUM REi MILLSTONE UNITS -( ) DECEMBER 17, 1997. t i ? i that? I.have heard from: no one what's-going on with- + 2 .that. 3 MS. GARDE: Okay. About a month ago, 5 4 there~ was an-incident in which the Quality Control 5 Inspectors, a group-of_ Quality Control-Inspectors,- 6 which.was one of-the identified hot spots, if you 7 recall, reached a frustration level that led to their 8 expressing-that frustration level by contacting an 9 attorney and that attorney on their behalf contacting-10 the company. 11 They raised a number of issues about y- _ (~g 12 their working conditions, their working environment, - (_/ 13 the lack of support for the Quality Control -14 organization. Appropriately, they had been raising 15 that through their chain of command and reached the 16 point that they felt they were not getting 17 responsiveness on that issue. 18 When it got to the point that Mike had 19 called you, it had came to his level. So this_was a z. f 20 different chain, It wasn't his chain. But, anyway, he o. R21 -- because of the safety-conscious work environment and - l 22 because it reached that level, it goes to his level and 5

l 23

_he intervened.on a. variety of fronts. There were 24 management changes made. Working conditions were POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

q 79 (). FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 changed. In-fact, they-got our offices.- We got; moved 2 as

a. result of the company expanding--their offices.

3 There were a-number of significant changeouts within-

4 personnel.

The company dealt with a number of 5 personnel issues, pay raise, you know, kind of-I- 6 have to human -- Human Resources, pay-related, working _ 7 condition-related issues. 8 Once it got to that level -- and it 9 never should have got to that level. But once it got 10 to that level, there was responsive action almost g 11 immediately. Is the problems all fixed? No. Do we, .e. 12 Little Harbor, still want to know why it got to that 13 point? How did it deteriorate for that long a period 14 of time that it ended up falling on the backs of-those 15 10 inspectors to go that distance? 16 MS. PERRY LUXTON: _How long was that. 17 time? 18 MS GARDE: Months. Months. Is that 11 9 acceptable? No. Do - are we still waiting for the: 20 whole shakedown on all that? Yes. It's one of-'the-O 21 reasons-they're in the red. That was an unacceptable .. l = 22 event. l-l 23 Do we now see good movement on that 12 4 front? Yes.. We see a lot of good things happening and 7 1 ( -POST REPORTING SERVICE-HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 e

80 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 turning that around. Are the inspectors all happy? 2 No. They -- the company has lost a confidence of those 3 _ inspectors and they've got a long way to go to get it 4 back. It's one of the reasons they're in the red in 5 terms of how they hand. led that incident. -6 Does that answer your question? 7 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Yes. That's good. 8 Okay. 9 A question for the NRC.

What, pray 10

tell, did you do about that situation?

Were you g 11 involved in that situation? You must have been 0 12 notified about that. Didn't you do your emergency 13 protocols? 14 A VOICE: Yes, we did. 15 MS. PERRY LUXTON: So you knew about 16 that. Wasn't that up to you to do something when 17 inspectors mutiny? 18 A VOICE: It wasn't that bad. I. 19 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Well, maybe it wasn't 20 that bad. O 21 MR. McKEE: I wouldn't go to that ' h' 22 extreme. We were aware of that then. As a matter of = 5 l 23

fact, I think that event was talked about at our 24 November 13 meeting or at least issues involved with n

~~ POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

81 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS - ()_ DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 the Quality Control -- and as far as -- you know, we 2 were following along with the_ event and some of the 3 activities. 4 I might mention, not directly related to 5 activities, but some of the things that were just 6 discussed, that's one of the programs -- I mean that 7 was one of the problem areas that was identified. 8 We're aware. And we're looking at even as part of our 9 ongoing evaluation. That's one of the areas where they once they identify a problem area, they develop 10 g 11 action plans. And a number of these actions that were r'% 12 discussed are pieces of that action plan. V 13 So we're following it. We're also 14 following the response. 15 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay. 16 MR. McKEE: Both specifically and 17 generally, how does that fit into their program? I. 18 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay. Good. Then 19 the last short question is recently the two women had a 20 problem and were let go, fired, and now they're on o 21 administrative leave. The question I have about it is 'l 22 my understanding is that the Termination Review Board = E l 23 or whatever the heck that's called looked at that 24 issue. Did they, in fact, look at that issue and G ~ POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 1 1 l

= 82 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS ,_) DECEMBER 17, 1997 ( 1 decide to terminate them? Because they had made 2 commitments -- 3 MS. GARDE: Let 4 MS, PERRY LUXTON: Right? To -- before 5 any firings, to -- 6 MS GARDE: All right. I don't know if 7 that's tile issue that Mr. Louchbaum was referring to in 8 his letter because it's pretty convoluted in his 9 letter, which is what you would expect something fourth 10 and fifth and sixth-hand hearsay. 11 Let me tell you the facts as I know them u 12 to be without disclosing privacy-related types of 13 concerns. I attended what's called an Executive Review 14 Board meeting. The Executive Review Board is a 15 temporary fix that the company has put in place to try 16 to make sure there's a check-and-balance that 17 individuals don't get disciplined for engaging in l 18 protected activity until all the supervicors get it and 19 can do it without having that check-and-balance. So 20 that's what the purpose of that review board is. O 21 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay. O 22 MS. GARDE: All right? That means that g l 23 every contractor or employee -- or employer who wants 24 to take any disciplinary action, written reprimand or O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

83 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS' ( ) DECEMBER 17,-1997 1

_above, ha3 to go before the Executive Review Board,-

2 present this case about why they want to take'this 3 action. _There's a little inquiry about it. And it's 4 supposed to make sure that-it catches things so-that 5 you don't have another MOV incident. All right?- 6 MS PERRY LUXTON: Mm-hna. 7 MS, GARDE: Okay. I attended the 8 Executive Review Board meeting.- And at that meeting, 9 there was a presentation made by an NU employee. on 10 -behalf of a contractor. So a contractor went to this .- g 11 NU person and said, "You need to go to the Executive W 12 Review Board meeting and present this." And they have 13 to come with their NU sponsor. So -- or, you know, 14 contract administrator. 15 The representation was made at the 16 Executive Review Board meeting that two people were 17 going to be terminated but immediately put into other I 18 jobs; that is, they were going to be terminated on the-19 contract they were on and immediately go back to -work l 20 in - other jobs,- on the basis that because of a handicap oJ it wasn't -- it wasn't performance-based. Okay?- .21 -l. 22 -Because there was a physical inability to do one aspect .[ 23 'of the job, these two people were being moved-to a 24 different job. D b#' -POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 c-

84 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS f3 if DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay. 2 MS. GARDE: And that there was no-3 protected activity involved in the action.

And, 4

therefore, it should basically be approved. Right? 5 Now, I witnessed that presentation. The presentation 6 raised no red flag to me. I mean I just nodded my 7 head, "Mm-hmm. Sounds fine to me", wrote notes about 8 it. Right? 9 Over the

weekend, as you

know, I

10 received a call from Mr. Delcore who, through a whole g 11 series of phone calls and interactions, had been V 12 contacted by these two women. So he didn't know I had (-} v 13 attended that Executive Review Board meeting. But as 14 soon as I heard what Mr. Delc6 a had to say, I said, "I 15 know about this case." 16

Well, it turns out that after the 17 Executive Review Board meeting, the two people were l

18 terminated. They were not moved to other jobs, as had 19 been told to the Executive Review Board meeting. 20 It also turns out that they did engage 21 in protected activity. Now, I put a small footnote in i 22 tnere. It was not protected activity on nuclear-l 23 related safety concerns. It was on something that 24 wouldn't be governed by the NRC. 'O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 m

) 851 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS I () DECEMBER 17, 1997 -1 But they were at a meeting. They raised-2 publicly an.- issue. Right? And the issue had to do-3 with this whole handicap kind of situation. And-3 4 .everyone knew about that. So they had engaged in 5 protected activity. 6 I talked to the two women with the 7 -assistance of. Don and immediately contacted Mike 8 Brothers the next morning and said, " Hey, wait a i 9 minute. I went to-this Review Board meeting. This.was- . hat was presented. These are the facts as I heard 10 w g 11 them over the weekend. I want an answer. I want an 4

• - y.

12 explanation within days " You know, a couple of days I 13 was 'off-site at the time. "But Little Harbor wants an 14 explanation of what happened." 15 Now, this is part of what's good that's 16 happening at Millstone because Brothers immediately 17 required the company to put them back on the payroll 18 and immediately. demanded accountability from that l 19 concractor about why those representations were made, -120 uponLwhich everyone in that room relied. Oi 21 Now, that story isn't over yet. We-I -22 don't'know;all the. answers yet. We don't havc all the I-l. 23 explanations. People -are scrambling. What happened. ~24 was wrong. -And it reflects on the Executive Review {. POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 ~

-. - ~.. - ~.. 86-FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS _DECEMBERL17,:1997 t L ut thesetwere'two women. Doard. -It's bad it happened. B I 2 who, but for the' intervention of-the Executive Review = 3 Board and Brothers' willingness'to force them to hire 4 them back, would today, two weeks before Christeas, 5 single mothers, be unemployed. 6 MS, PERRY LUXTON: . No. But wait a i 7 minute. You forgot the other-intervenor. But for the 8 fact -- but for the fact that they. didn't go outside 9 and call Mr. Delcore -- - 10 MS. GARDE: Right. [ 11 MS, PERRY LUXTON: -- this would have U 12 never happened. That is the crux -- .13 MS. GARDE: It wouldn't have,gotten -- I 14 agree with you. And -- 15 MS. PERRY LUXTON: So it's three things. 16 MS. GARDE: I. agree with you. I don't 17 - think-that if it hadn't -- these -- and that does raise I. 18 one'other thing. When they left, they're all supposed' 19 to be told -they can go' to the Employee Concerns 20 Program. -These two women were not told that. So when O' .21 they left, they were not forced to go through the - 22 Employee Concerns Program,- There wasn't a mandatory- [ 23

debriefing.

They were left on their-own. They called 24 the loyal opposition, if you will. They got to Delcore POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800).262-4102 1 ny- .y n 1 3 + m

87 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS ( DECEMBER.17, 1997 1 and Delcore got-them-to;the rightLplace. ) 2 And I would likelto -- in answering your 3 question, I think it's appropriate that, you know, I

4

.thank you at the end of the year. It's a holiday 15 -season. Your group needs to be thanked. You've done a. 6 lot-of work this year. It's - taken-time out of your 7 life, your family's lives, your kids' lives. That goes 8 to all of-you who are people who come to these-9 meetings. You have made a difference. In these two 10 women's, you mado a tremendous difference because I _g. 11 don't know if they would have found us if it ---I don't U V 12 know if they would have found their way -back to 13 Brothers if it hadn't been for Delcore. 14 MS. PERRY LUXf0N: Yes. 15 MS GARDE: I don't know that. .16 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Yes. Thank-you. 17 Thank you. 'l 18 -(Applause) 19 MS. PERRY LUXTON: And what I want to ~ 20 tell you,=when she called me and I told her to call Don ' I 21 22 MS. GARDE: Right. 'g 5.1

[

23 MS. PERRY LUXTON:.She had just said I '24 just talked to-Don. You know=what she said to me, -POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN,-CT -(800) 262-4102 .x .m J

l 88 FORUM-RE: MILLSTONE UNITS c rs (_) -DECEMBER 17,- 1997 1 'I which is disturbing? -Before I'want-to'say the bad: 2 news before I say what I - think is the good- - news. Is 3 that she said that -- I' don't know -- she didn't say 1 '4 she didn't know she could to the Employee Concerns -5 Program, but she didn't want to go to Little Harbor --- 3 6 MS. GARDE: Right. 7 MS, PERRY LUXTON: -- because she felt' i '8 -Little -~- she said,- "My boyfriend.said Little' Harbor 9 works for NU, even :though they're supposed to be~ l 10 inde' pendent." 11 MS. GARDE: Right. 12 MS, PERRY LUXTON: They work for NU. l q 13 -They're paid by NU. So they were reluctant to go. 14 MS. GARDE: Right. 15 MS. PERRY LUXTON: So the point is there-16 still needs to be more education throughout the site'on 17 who to go to and what your function is. But it's I '19 question of consulting or independent again with thece 18 interesting because it got into the whole independence i-t _ [: 20 two women.- And they were distraught when they called. CY , - g. ?21 And I never had that before. This was the first one. 22 MS. GARDE: Well,.you did a good job. > - g ~ l 23 MS. PERRY LUXTON: But you know.what? q 24 lt ' m so= glad

that, you~know, you see some things-I POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 w

a ~n 2 e e sm ,,,-ec- ~v ~ r

. _ _ _ _,. _. _ _ -.. _ _ _.,. _. _. _.... _.. ~ _ v r f y - 89. FORUM RE MILLSTONE UNITS -.{ DECEMBER 17,1 199.7 -1

changing with -- or things:are' starting to -- I;almost i

2 said -- forgive me--- flying in the right direction. 3 But-that-with Little Harbor's-help -- with Little 4 ' Harbor's help, that Mike Brothers is getting to learn 5 what to do. 6 MS. GARDE: We were going to give him a 7 flag for Christmas. 8 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Yes. Getting to 29 learn what to do. We'll never live that down. t 10 MS. GARDE: Never. g:

11 MS. PERRY LUXTON:

But, anyway -- 2 12 MS. GARDE:- Yes, there are good things-13 happening. You can't -- you cannot under-- there's a 14 lot of things that need to be fixed. It's not all 15 -better. And there's a lot of-people who still-are 16 suffering at the hands of supervisors who don't quite I 17 get'it. '18 -But I don't think we should miss that 19 there are strides being made forward. They still are 20 -in the-red.- They've got a long.way to go. O > UI 21 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Land I just would ask I' c22 'one,llast thing. Before.any restart of these plants, I J -23 wouldilike 'to'have'some kind of a time period-where we -24 can"see good' report cards before -- POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 m

. ~. P T -i 90 -( FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS DECEMBER 17, 1997-1 'MS, GARDE: You. need to address that to' )l 2

them, f

3 MS, PERRY LUXTON: Yes..You know what I 4 'mean?- Good report cards. When they give the -okay,- -5 they think that things-are getting better, that we 6 should have some kind of period of_ time to make sure 7 that they're doing -- that they're following through on 8 this stuff. 9 DR. TRAVERS: Well, yourl point is a good 10 one. In fact, I heard Little Harbor emphasize and I'll- -[ 11 emphasize that none of this means that there isn't 12 follow-through. And it's -- you know, even if you -- 13 whatever period of time you say prior to restart, if-14 they're acceptable, fine. But the follow-through in 15 operations-and the way this company continues or-fails 16 to continue its efforts to improve safety-conscious 17 work environment, buzz words -- safety culture I like o I. 18 think of it as -- that's key, 19 And part of the order that NRC issued, l 20 you may recall, includes a provision for just that kind - o-of sustained performance -inL the sense that Little 21

l

.22 Harbor is to be-maintained for a period of time, it's l-- 23 expected, after restart to. carry out an assessment, 24 evaluation to see if this kind of' thing-is sustained in

o POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 1

,,,c n-r,

91 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS [/Y DECEMBER 1*/, 1997 t 1 the near term. You know, how many months? Six? I 2 don't know. 3 But in the longer term, we're going to 4 have to continue to assess it, you know, as an NRC 5 function as well. 6 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Mm-hmm. I was 7 thinking of it more before restart, the long period of 8 time. 9 MS, GARDE: Yes. 10 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Not after restart. 11 DR. TRAVERS: I understand. ( 12 CHAIRMAN LANNING: This gentleman here? 13 MR. MIKE KENNEDY: My name is Mike 14 Kennedy. I work over at Millstone 3. I just got off 15 of work a little while ago, so I missed the initial 16 part of the presentation. 17 I find myself in a funny position I. 18 following Susan Luxton Perry saying some good things 19 are happening at NU and finding myself fairly ( 20 disappointed with some of the marks that NU's received O 21 from Little Harbor and I believe that some of those I 22 marks are quite justified. I thought we'd be making g l 23 better progress than we have at this time. 24 And since I work there, I've seen what's n POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

i ^ t -i 92 f ' FORUM RE MILLSTONE UNITS --(). DECEMBER-17, 1997 'l .been~ going on at Millstone 3, and Millstone 2> and 2 Millstone 1 to a -lesser-extent. And that's the 3 enormous pressures that have been put on the employees i 4 and the supervisors and management to deal with a whole 5 host of issues, not just employee concerns-' but FSAR-6 compliance and getting our Corrective Action Program in l 7 order. I 8 And it's easy when this is, you

know, 9

consuming 60 to 70 hours of your work week, your week 10 of life, to somehow focus in on the physisal

aspects,

.R 11 what really needs to be done, what valve 1;ueups need-12 to be done, what.tagouts need to be done, what design 13 work needs to be' accomplished, and forget the human 14 side of this, the employee concerns side. 15 I think.that was one of the things that 16 happened over the last year at NU is that some of the' 17 . priorities that should have been focused in on employee I. 18 concerns were not dealt with as soon as I'd hoped they 19 would have been.

20 The safety-conscious work environment.

10; = 21 We've' heard a couple of discussions about Mike Brothers ' :ll '.c l 22 and' his ability to effectively = sponsor that-J) '23 organization, I've seen.some of the people on the-24 Safety-Conscious Work Environment that work under Mike POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (80J) 26"-4102 -. u -., - w.-..-..

l 93 FORUM RE:. MILLSTONE UNITS- ~ - DECEMBER -- 17, 1997-i . 1 on:the staff. I-just -wanted to.come to'this-meeting ~l "2 and say that I have a high-regard for individuals like-- 3 ' Mike Gentry and Al Elms and Eric Frieze. I think 4 they're good people. And I.think if Mike utilizes his 5 staff effectively, that he has some very good tools-; to 6 help him' succeed in establishing that safety culture. l 7 I had a question for Little Harbor in 1 8 that regard; in that we've had a discussion. of how- -9 .you've assessed how Mike Brothers is-handling his 10 function as the Executive Sponsor of the' Safety- _[ 11 Conscious Work Environment. What is'your opinion at -t 12 this time of Mike's staff? -13 MR. BECK: We commented, actually to the 14 Commissioners, that one of the things that has happened 15 lately that's a very positive sign or assignment of 16 more management resources to Mike Brothers to deal with 17 the safety-conscious work environment. And those 18 resources - - you ' mentioned three of the names. We 19 .usually don't talk about individuals. But they're:all- -J20 doing a very good job in support of him, in gathering.- g 21

information,- gathering

data, helping others develop 22 action-programs to-deal with problem a r e a's,

for 23

example,

-and'- bringing 1 a focus to Brothers in ~his - 24 executive position to deal with-those issues. And

o;

-POST REPORTING SERVICE ~ HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 o l j. L

--. - = ? 94 FORUM RE:~ MILLSTONE UNITS-( DECEMBER 17, 1997- . They're adding ~1 they're gettingL better at their task. ~ 'f 2 more resources,Lparticularly. over the last month, to 3 begin to address the area. 4 At the same time, we'd have to share 5 your disappointment that all.this didn't happen sooner. 6 It didn't. And facts are facts. But you are'where you-7 are. 8 MS. GARDE: One thing I'd also like to c 9 do, Mike, is -- I've acknowledged Susan and what I'll 10 call the external loyal opposition for the things -[ 11 they've done. But it's not just been Mike and his 9 12 staff that have started to turn things around. There's-13 people' in this room that work at that

plant, you 14 included, although I haven't

-- we've been pretty busy 15 on technical stuff more: recently. There's people in -16 this room tonight that have put a tremendous amount of 17 time-and effort to get the company to move in the right 18 direction on things like communications

plans, 19 accountaoility, individual manager reactions that need-l 20 to be held up and fixed.

That takes courage Of-you also all deserve 21 internally. And.they

] -

22 1 recognition-because it wouldn't be happening without [ 23 .that action. It wouldn't be happening without people ~ 2'4

saying, "No.

This is wrong. We have-to fix this." POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 =

195-FORUM RE:-MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 And I'd just like to_recogniz-those people here 2 tonight and people like Al who don't have to keep 3 coming back to these meetings and do to point out and 4 raise their concerns. And it is -- it is an effort, a 5 ~ collaborative effort, that's slowly moving forward. 6 MR. KENNEDY:

Billie, I appreciate-you 7

saying that for both the present and former NU 8 employees that have worked in this area. 9 My other question on safety-conscious 10 work environment is the role that they're playing in g; 11 linking other employee concerns activities. Have you. U-12 dealt with their iriterface or assessing their interf ace 13 with the Employee Concerns Program and the Employee -14 Concerns Oversight Panel as functioning, you know, to a 15 common goal? 16 MS. GARDE: Well, as you know, there's 17 been -a reorganization that now has the Employee l 18 Concerns Program answering to the safety-conscious. work 19 environment function. We're hopeful that will work out - 20 a lot of the disconnects because there were

O g -;, /

21 disconnects. ECP_ was doing one thing. Safety-Ll-122 Conscious Work Environment was doing another-thing, (( 23 Training'was doing something else. And: they were not 24 all on the same page. Which would be obvious to Little '40-POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 L = :z..z.

l I 96 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 Harbor because we'd go to this activity, then we'd go 2 to that activity, then we'd go to something el'e and 3 we'd come back and they were all different. 4 And I hope that gets fixed. I can't say 5 it has yet. But I think those connections are starting 6 now to develop. I hope we see it get, you

know, 7

formulated and work a little better. 8 MR. KENNEDY: Thank you. 9 Another question I had in one of the I want to say major 10 areas that Little !! arbor had 11 disappnintment with Northeast Utilities. And that's in 12 the area of etfective resolution of concerns. O 13 And I believe I asked you the same 14 question at a previous meeting about ti.e bundling of HR 15 issues in with nuclear safety concerns. And I 16 understand in a way thc position you have, that it's 17 all part of a common culture and if a company fails to 28 handle employees on a day-to-day basis on non-nuclear f 19 safety concerns, that when a true concern comes along 20 in that culture, they're not they're not ready to 3 21 deal with that concern any differently than they have I 22 deal with a pay concern issue or just a simple respect g l 23 issue with the employee. 24 But in the sense that fou're trying to. l 7-l POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i 1 I

97 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 assess the ability of the plant to have a healthy work 2 environment in the sence that we can raise wafety 3 concerns freely and openly, that I wonder if you need 4 to reconsider the bundling of all those issues that ECP 5 deals with into a common mark and to perhaps separate 6 that out and to assess how Northeast Utilities and the 7 agencies within Northeast Utilities that deal with 8 employee concerns are dealing effectively with nuclear 9 safety concerns rather than promotional issues and pay 10 issues and issues that do not affect the health and g 11 safet.y of the general public.

1 12 MS. GARDE:

Okay. That's really not our 13 decision. I mean if you feel that way, you need to go 14 back and talk, re-talk to Ed Morgan and the people that 15 are running the program. If you remember, that was a 16 hotly debated topic during the Employee Concerns Task 17 Force and the decision of the task force, once that has I 10 been implemented by the

company, has been to keep 19 everything together.

20

Now, we have done reviews of the 21 technical resolution of nuclear safety-related issues.

I 22 And that information was included in our Corrective l 23 Act!on Plan review. We've also done a breakout of 24 retaliation, 10 CFR 50.7 retaliation issues and looked POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 ,n

t 98 f FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 i 1 at them separately. But ssessing the effectiveness of ( 2 the program has to be based on your scope of the j i j 3

program, i

4 I mean $ne can answer and have answered [ t 5 using the breakout. But effectiveness we can't break l t 6 out if you're concluding that in the scope of the 7 program. Do you -- 8 MR. BECK: That's right. Yes. l f .9 MR. KENNEDY: I fully understand that 10 position with the idea that it did come from the people [ g 11 in NU's executive sponsorship that did adopt that -l V 12 comprehensive plant that HR-related issues had to be 13 bundled in with employee concerns. 14 But one problem that we have with that 15 is that when people that are not familiar with that 16 Comprehensive Plan view it, you know, come in and look 1 17 at'it from the outside, and the whole program is judged I 18 to be ineffective because of the decision to bundla in i 19 non-nuclear safety issues into the Employee Concerns l 20 Program. The impression is made on those people that o 21 the people that.are working in Employee Concerns are I 22 ineffective at handling-nuclear safety concerns and g. [ 23 that! concerns,-in their mind, including nuclear safety l \\ 24

concerns, are not handled in an expeditious manner.

.(b POST REPORTING SERVICE RHAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 } l'

99 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS (m) DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 And in many cases, people have dissatisfaction. 2 And I worry about that public impression 3 that's been created by the way the program has been 4 administered. And I just, you know, want to make a 5 comment that I think it would be productive to try to 6 separate out the two types of concerns that are central 7 to the Employee Concerns, the HR area and the nuclear 8 safety concerns. 9 MS. GARDE: The reports, the ECP monthly 10 reports, break them out now. Right? They break -- p 11 MR. KENNEDY: Yes, they do. e 12 MS. GARDE: They break out 10 CFR 50.7 (~) v 13 issues. They break out nuclear safety-related issues. 14 And maybe I wasn't clear before. Little Harbor has 15 eva_uated them in a breakout. What we haven't done and 16 I don't think we can do is reach a separate conclusion 17 on the effectiveness of the program on nuclear safety-l 18 re.ated concerns versus other concerns because the i. 19 program is judged in the eyes of the potential user on f 20 the scope that it itself is following. O 21 So if you're a worker with a concern and l 22 you decide you want to go to the ECP Program, you're g [ 23 not going to look in the fine print and see how they do 24 on effectiveness with nuclear safety-related concerns. POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

l t 100 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 You're going to based your decision on whether you use 2 that program on its overall reputation. It's not t 3 about, you know, how to present numbers to the NRC. 4 It's about what the workers think before they choose o S use it that we're evaluating. In terms of breaking out l 6 and packaging that information to the Commission, you I 7 need to talk to Mr. Morgan about that. 8 MR. KENNEDY: I understand that, Billie. 9

But, again, you -- you create a situation where if a 10 worker has a real safety problem and that worker's

[ 11 gotten the impression that ECP takes a long time to s 12 resolve

issues, that they've been judged to be 13 ineffective when, in

fact, they have a great track 14 record in dealing with actual nuclear safety concerns, 15 and because of that impression the worker is more 16 reluctant to go to them, then we haven't done anybody a 17 favor.

18 MS. GARDE: I think you should go talk 19 to Ed and look at the statistics. 20 '4R. KENNEDY: That's all I have. Thank O 21 you. ,'g 22 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Another question for g j 23 Little Harbor? We'll get you next. We'll get you 24 right next. O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 9 ) ~ ~,.,,, -., ~ - ,~. -. -..

4. 101 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 MR. JERRY REARDAN: Good evening. My 2 name is Jerry Reardan. I'm with the Nuclear Safety 3 Engineering Group at Northeast Utilities Millstone 4 site. I dislike coming before the NRC in public 5 meetings because I feel I'm taking time from the 6 public, but statements and discussions I've heard here 7 tonight compels me to come forward, 8 Permit me to provide you with three 9 snapshots that I've personally participated in dealing 10 with the saf7.y N3scious work environment at 11 Millstone. 12 Number one, Dave Louchbaum of the Union ) 13 of Concerned Scientists visited the Millstone site 14 recently. I believe it was last week. Fearing that he 15 may have been given the tour like Governor Rowland was 16 given a while back, I contacted Mr. Louchbaum and 17 through personal written communications, Mr. Louchbaum l 18 informed me of a very disturbing discussion he had with 19 Mike Brothers. 20 Mr. Brothers is of the current mind and 21 opinion that all which transpired the last couple of I 22 years has been the result of NRC being embarrassed by g -l 23 Northeast Utilities and all you're doing is punishing 24 us and there are real -- there are real no -- there are lO L) POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 e ,e--m.v.t#--g-+g e+ p.s.,-p -6t-- r gw e

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102 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 no real safety issues. 2 I find that to be very disturbing. And 3 if there's anybody, member of the press here tonight, I 4 would discuss details with them und provide them the 5 documentation. 6 The second snapshot, as I said, I'm a 7 member of the Nuclear Safety Engineering Group. I've 8 been there -- been with Northeast Utilities 25 years. 9 Our group is a group within the Oversight Department. 10 And recently, we've all participated in some extensive f 11 training on safety-conscious work environment. Where u 12 most other departments at the site were given a one-13 hour stand-down, we were given a special four-hour off-14 site session. 15 During that session we were broken into 16 groups by our sub-groups. Our Nuclear Safety 17 Engineering Group was all together, approximately 25 I 18

people, including our management, all levels of our 19 management, supervisors up through manager.

And we 20 were presented with 18 attributes of a safety-conscious o 21 work environment and were asked as a group which ones I 22 we felt were_ presently functional at Millstone nuclear g [ 23 power station. 24 Out of those 18 attributes and after POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

103 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 three and a half hours of intense and heated 2 discussion, our group came to the consensus that only 3 two were perhaps functional. Our attributes were much 4 more extensive than Little Harbor's. That disturbs me. snapshot three. 5 About a month 6 Approximately a month ago, two employees went to the 7 Employee Concerns Program to lodge allegations. 8 Amongst those allegations they presented, they offered 9 to present detailed and documer.ted evidence of 10 harassment.

But, instead, they were advised not to 11 raise those issues because the Employee Concerns 12 Program felt that the present recovery team would 13 eventually retaliate against those employees.

Billie 14 Garde has confirmed this. 15 Gentlemen, wake up. If you allow this 16 utility to go back on line before they have it clearly 17 demonstrated that they're going to do the right thing, i. 18 you will be potentially killing many tens of thousands 19 of people in Connecticut. f 20 Thank you. And, again, if anybody wants f 21 details and documentation, I will deal with the press 22 only. .g lt 23 (Applause) 24 CHAIRMAN LANNING: This lady right here O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

~ 1 104 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 please. 2 DR. MARIE CARTER: Good evening. My 3 name is -- got it. 4 A VOICE: Thanks. 5 DR. CARTER: Marie Carter. I'm a 6 resident of Waterford. I'm a physician. I would just I'm not sure whether to put this in the form of a 7 8 question or a statement. I think Attorney Garde has 9 said this in a much -- little more roundabout way; that 10 nothing that happens within a nuclear power plant or a p 11 hospital does not impact on the nurinar aspect of this v 12 plant or on patient care in a hospital. So I don't ) 13 think it can be split down. Whatever happens is going 14 to go on rolling the cogs in the machine work on up and 15 if someone's upset about who they're working with, it's 16 going to take their mind off what they should be doing. 17 So that there's no way that you can separate, to my 18

thinking, any nuclear from non-nuclear happenings 19 within a nuclear power plant.

20 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Okay. Thank you. 3 Any other questions for Little Harbor? 21 22 Okay. We'll take a 10-minute break, .t -l 23 Thank you for coming tonight. 24 (RECESS) .,r POST REPORTING SERVICE '~ HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

I 105 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Okay. If everybody 2 will take their seats, we'll resume the meeting. 3 Okay. Gene Imbro now will summarize the 4 status of ICAVP. 5 Gene? 6 DR. TRAVERS: Can we get can we get 7 settled? Thanks. 8 MR. IMBRO: Hello. My name is Gene 9 Imbro. I'm the Deputy Director of ICAVP Oversight. I 10 want to just give a brief status report of the progress p 11 of the IC4VP and our progress in overseeing the ICAVP. 12 I'll talk both about Millstone Units 2 and 3, 13 For Unit 2, we've completed the 14 implementation inspection of Parsons. Basically, that 15 inspection was to ensure that Parsons was doing their 16 work in accordance with the audit plan. The results of 17 the inspection were favorable. We found that Parsons I 18 was doing the job as we had expected and in conformance 19 with the audit plan. That inspection report will be 20 issued describing that inspection and the results in O 21 approximately a month. l 22 And for ongoing inspections now, there g. l 23 is an ongoing inspection at Unit 3. That's our 24 oversight of Sargent & Lundy Tier 2, Tier 3 reviews. POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

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-&-e Am eAC--- ++4= 44-- P l 106 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O oscsaa8a 17 1997 l 1 As I say, the inspection has another component yet 2 which will be conducted at Sargent & Lundy. And that 3 will be the first week of the year. And there will be 4 a public exit meeting here in Connecticut the week of 5 the 12th. I'm not exactly sure of the date, the 15th 6 or something like that.

But, anyway, that will 7

certainly be announced. 8 Other things -- other things coming up 9 for our oversight, on Unit 3 we're getting ready to do 10 the in-scope inspection at Sargent & Lundy, of the 11

system, of the systems reviewed by Sargent

& Lundy. 12 And that will be a review by one of the Tier 1 systems 13 that they looked at. That inspection is planned to 14 start January 5 and it will be concluded on the 6th of 15 February. So it's about a five-week effort, including 16 reviews at site at Sargent & Lundy and a portion of 17 review in-office. 18 That inspection will be another 19 inspection would follow that. And that's a corrective 20 action inspection that we're planning to do to look at O 21 the corrective actions, a sample of-corrective actions l' 22 that Sargent & Lundy has reviewed.

Again, Sargent &

g [ 23 Lundy is reviewing all the corrective actions in 24 response to issues raised both by CMP and by Sargent & O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

= - - _ l 107 FORUM RR: MILLSTONE UNITS O oncesana 17 x997 1 Lundy through the DR process. So that will -- that 2 next -- the last inspection or the next inspection 3 after the in-scope inspection will address corrective 4 actions. 5 On Unit 2 -- again, I'm sort of going 6 back and forth. But these are sort of in chronological 7 order. Unit 2, we're planning to do our out-of-scope start on January 26. The 8 inspection. And that wil'A 9 system that we're going to look at -- actually, on-site 10 is January 26. The prep is starting now. We're going 11 to be looking at the RBCCW system -- 32 MS. BASSILAKIS: Say that again? 13 MR. IMBRO: Unit -- okay. Unit 2 out-14 of-scope inspection will start. -- the prep is starting 15 on January 5. The first week on site I believe is 16 January 26. Okay? And the system selected is Reactor 17 Building and Closed Cooling Water system. That's the 18 system that's being extensive monitored. 19 That*a kind of whe're we're in at in f 20 assessing the process. From the slides presented at 0-21 the Commission meeting last week, we noted that Sargent l 22 _&.Lundy has closed approximately 74, 74 DR's. It's g _l 23 come to conclusion on 74 DR's out of sotae -- well, I 24 think at that -- the number on the slide was something ]-- POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

i i i 108 l FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS I -( ) DECEMBER 17, 1997 t i like 500-plus DR's, preliminary DR's that were issued. 2 So a lot of work remains both on the part of NU to i 3 respond to the discrepancy reports and Sargent & Lundy i i 4 to review those. So the results are -- it's early yet 5 to really judge how the ICAVP will turn out in terms of l e 6 assessing the -effectiveness of CMP because there's 7 really not many DR's that have gone through'the process 8 totally. For Unit 2, which is certainly lagging, I l 9 think there have been -- I want to say something like j 10 about 119 discrepancy reports that were written by 11 Parsons and out of those 119, I believe only six have 12 gone through the process and been closed. So it's (} 13 really early on to make any kind of conclusions. i 14 So that's, in a nutshell, where we stand 15 with ICAVP. Are there any questions that I can answer? j 16 A VOICE: Go on up. 17 MR. JOB NAZAR: I think you can hear me I 18 19 CHAIRMAN LANNING: No, no, no. You need ]- g 20 to -- 0' 21 A -VOICE: It's also for the video-g 22 cameras and stuff. .5 i b 23 MR NAZAR: I'm just curious -- you have 24 the numbers with you -- for Unit 2 and Unit 3 how the ) POST REPORTING SERVICE i HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 B -? - - -,,, _,.. ~. - - - -,, -.... -. - - - ~, -, - - -,,,

t 109 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 DR's break out in terms of I chink it was -- what? -- 2 tour level groupings? 3 MR. IMBRO: Yes. Okay. For the -- 4 there were 38 -- 38 on Unit 3, 38 DR's that were found 5 to be DR's that were not previously identified by 6 Northeast Utilities. 7 A VOICE: Your mike isn't working. 8 MR. IMBRO: So the 74 that were closed 9 on Unit 3, 38 were -- I think 38's the right number -- 10 were discrepancy reports or discrepancies that were not 11 previously identified through the Configuration 12 Management Program that was performed by Northeast 13 Utilities. 14 Now, of those 38, three -- thatks. Yes. 15 If I'm wrong, you can correct me. But I think I 16 remember the numbers. Thanks for the -- 17 Anyway, 36 were Level 4's. And you'll I, 18 remember that the Level 4 discrepancies were 19 discrepancies that were those that were below'what we l n 20 termed a defect in 97-00 -- our Commission Paper of 97-O 21 003. And essentially, that means those were areas, 36 I 22 of the 38 issues were areas that were no indicative of g l 23 failure to comply with any regulation or plant's: 24 licensing basis. () POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

i 110 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 i 1 There were cwo, two of the 38, that were 2 Level 3's. And those were areas where, while it was 3 judged to be adequate margin for the component to r 4 perform a safety function, there was some discrepancy 5 with the licensing basis. So there were two areas, two G of 38 were safety significant of the ones that are 7 closed. 8 I can't -- I don't know the Unit 2 9 numbers off the top of my head. But maybe John can 10 help us out. Thank you. 11 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Thanks, John. 9 12 MR. IMBRO: Okay. Unit 2, there were 14 {} 13 discrepancy reports that are closed. Six had not 14 six of the fourteen had not been previously identified 15 by Northeast Utilities. And of those six, all of the - 16 - all of them were Level 4's, again not indication of a 17 discrepancy of regulatory compliance issue. I 18 So you can make your own judgments. I 19 think it's -- for me, it's -- I won't even venture to 20 guess as to how this is going to turn out. But I think 'O 21 it's really too early in the process. But I mean 22 certainly there's a lot of work yet to be done. And g [ 23 there are a lot of DR's out there and there's still 24 DR's being written that need to go through the process, .O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

111 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DEC2MBER 17, 1997 1 that NU needs to read and respond to them and then the 2 contractors need to make their own independent 3 assessment of the NU response. So there's much work 4 yet to be done. 5 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Rosemary? 6 MS. BASSILAKIS: Just the number again? 7 Of the 500 how many have been closed? 8 MR. IMBRO: 74. 9 MS. BASSILAKIS: 74. And of the 74, 38 10 haven't been identified by NU. That statistic's over 11 50 percent. I guess you guys don't need a calculator u 12 to figure that out. } I guess what I'm that's 13 I 14 wondering is whether or not you think 500 DR's is a.1.ot 15 and whether you anticipated that many in the onset of 16 this. 17 MR. IMBRO: Well, I mean yes, it's a 10 lot. And no, I don't think I anticipated that many. 19 But I think that part of the reason is that Sargent 20 Lundy is performing a very, very in-depth review. O 21 Probably a low level in some instances that was k 22 performed by NU. 'And so I think you need to look at -- g 1 l-23 again, the 500 number is out there and those need to be 24 addressed by the system. They're preliminary. But of G POST-REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 L

. -...=_ _ I 4 112 i FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 the 74 that are closed and those which have not been 2 identified by NU, not previously identified by NU, 3 virtually all were not really compliance issues or 4 issues where the plant was in contradiction with its 5 licensing or design basis. So we draw -- I mean, 6 again, I think the numbers are preliminar'. So I think 7 I would agree with you that probably going into this it 8 wouldn't have been expected 500. And I think the last t 9 count on -- as someone mentioned today on the Internet, 10 there's something like over 700 now that are issued. 11 So, no, I certainly didn't expect that u 12 many going into the process. I guess what finally -- {} 13 what remains and what we're going to need to assess is 14 the safety significance of the ones that were not 15 previously identified by NU. This, we need to perform 16 some judgment as to the effectiveness of their CMP. 17 DR. TRAVERS: Yes. Just at the outset 18 and just to add to what Gene said, the process that I 19 we're using on the preliminary DR's, just so you know, 20 just so there's a clear picture, the DR's are written O 21 against issues 50 percent of which, thus far at least, I 22 have been. issues that were identified in CMP. g l 23 The contractor in the process we're 24 using isn't wasting time, if you will, to track down to POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

-,n-.a- -.w. ,-u-=. -a-- .---r-. 113 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 see if the issues that they identify were identified in 2 the licensee's program. So this is in no way to 3 discount what's being found. Just simply to give you 4 the information that suggests that as a part of the 5 process your initial high number, at least in part, is 6 a function of the direction we've given them. Don't 7 don't waste time early on. Identify issues. Put them 8 on the Internet. Let's let everybody see them. The 9 process later on will give NU an oppcrtunity to say and 10 really justify whether or not they found them. And I Q 11 guess in at least half of the ones that have been 0 + 12 closed, they've provided that kind of information that 13 has allowed them to be closed based on earlier 14 identification. Just knowledge. That's all. 15 MS, BASSILAKIS: And I guess your charge 16 as well as you evaluate the whole scenario as it 17 unfolds is to see how these relate to all the other 18 systems that haven't been looked at as far as in-scope 19 or out-of-scope, Sargent & Lundy or what have you. And 20 the importance is the findings in these small amount of O 21 the systems -- and I know it's very in-depth and it I 22 covers all different-realms,-vertical and horizontal. g l 23 And I'm glad for that. But also to keep in mind that 24 there are systems that haven't been looked at. And how O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

114 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 i i did these findings relate to those systems that have 2 not been looked at? And is it possible that a large 3 number of Level 4's are somehow more significant than 4 just a Level 4? I mean I guess part of -- 5 MR. IMBRO: Well, it's -- 1 6 MS. BASSILAKIS: We had tried to hammer 7 this out. And we didn't come to any kind of, you know, 8 consensus, but -- 9 MR. IMBRO: I can tell you -- 10 MS. BASSILAKIS: Yes. f 11 MR. IMBRO: What we had set forth in the 2 12 SECCI paper was that even though we felt that Level 4's (} 13 were the threshold below the design and licensing 14 basis, that we would look at those on a trending basis. 15 And then if it indicated some patterns where, for 16

example, there were a

lot of minor calculational 17 errors, then that would be indicetive of some larger I, 18 problem and we may ask NU to go back and do additional 19 looking in certain areas. So just the fact that f 20 they're below the threshold of the licensing basis o 21 doesn't mean we're going to discard them. They still l 22 need to be evaluated and assessed in a broader context. g [ 23 MS, BASSILAKIS: Just one question which 24 you cannot answer if it's inappropriate. But I'm POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN,'CT (800) 262-4102

115 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS h, DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 wondering if you've been contacted by the Department of 2 Public Utility Control to get your assessment on how 3 soon tbc units could be restarted. 4 DR. TRAVERS: To my knowledge -- I don't 5 know if anyone else in the agency has been contacted. 6 But I haven't been. I don't think anybody at the table 7 has. 8 MR. IMBRO: No, I haven't been, either, 9 MS. BASSILAKIS: It's just curiosity. 10 Because it does seem like there's still a lot of work 11 to do. U 12 MR. IMBRO: There is. 13 MS. BASSILAKIS: Thank you. 14 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Susan? 15 MS, PERRY LUXTON: You know what I did? 16 I have -- about the DR's, DR type and level summary. I 17 took this from one of the handouts that Sargent & Lundy 18 gave out at one of the last meetings. It has Level 3 t, 19 discrepancy types and Level 4 discrepancy types. And I f 20 added them. Okay? So that Level 3, there were 91 in O 21 calculations and Level 4, there were 184. So presently I 22 there's 275 discrepancies in calculations. g l 23 MR. IMBRO: Preliminary discrepancies. 24 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Preliminary em ~ POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800)_262-4102

t i i 116 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS . h DECEMBER 17, 1997 l 1 . discrepancies. -Right. f 2 110 in component data, 44 corrective-3

actions, 94 in

drawings, 63 in installation' 4

requirements and 84 in licensing documents. f 5 So I'm just wondering. What do we get 6 to when we decide that calculations should be looked at 7 someplace else than just those systems? You know what 8 I mean? Because 275 just in calculations seems to be a 9 lot. But I just was wondering. i 10 MR. IMBRO: I mean I think we need to P 11 first wait until the DR's get finalized. At this point g 12 now we're working with preliminary numbers. So it may 13 turn out that many of these DR's turn out to be things 14 that were previously identified by NU. Possibly. 15 Maybe not. 16 But I think we'll have to -- you know, 17 we'll have to wait and see what, you know, what type of 18 -- I mean it's hard to say what we would ask them to do 19 without really trying to get-a better understanding of f 20 the process. I mean there-could. be a variety-of

O 21 errors.

I mean it could be a lot of arithmetic errors { -{ 22 'that really don't amount.to anything.- In that case, [. -23 - maybe we would -say "The next time you-revise -a 24 calculation, you need to, you know, make these. minor j POST REPORTING SERVICE =HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 j'. ,,.,-.,.-,_-,.,..,,,,,..n ,,.,n.,., n s,+.n,...w..n..,~.,,..,___*

I 117 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS oscsansa 17' 1997 i O i corrections." 2 There may be other errors that may be [ 3 more indicative of some kind of programmatic weakness-4 that we might ask them to go back and broaden the scope 5 of review. I mean I think that's -- I'm not trying to 6 evade the question, but I don't really know the answer 7 until I understand what the problem is. 8 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay.

Now, a

9 question I have. Clarify for me one thing. When you 10 keep saying the DR's that weren't previously identified 11 by NU, is it possible to get a complete list of all the 12 DR's, even the ones that were identified by NU so we in 13 the public could find out exactly what the 14 configuration management scene looked like? 15 MR. IMBRO:

Well, they're all

-- I 16 believe they're all on the Internet. 17 A VOICE: It's on the Internet. 18 MR. IMBRO: Restate your question. I'm i 19 not 20 MS. PERRY LUXTON: No. That isn't the O 21 question. That isn't -- I 22 MR. IMBRO: Say again. g l 23 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Well, my Qui 1 tion ir 24 POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 a .~...r-- ,c.,, ,~n

i 118 i FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O oeceassa 17' 1997 1 MR. IMBRO: The answer is, yes, we can - l 2 - we'll get whatever you -- I'm not sure I understand i 3 what you want, but -- 4 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Wait a minute. Wait 5 a minute. 6 MS. PERRY LUXTON: I think Wayne might 7 know what I want. 8 CHAIRMAN LAINING: I think -- let me 9 just clarify and make sure I do understand. You're 10 asking -- g 11 A VOICE: You want the 3 -- V 12 MS. PERRY LUXTON: I go for you. Go 13 ahead. Keep going. 14 CHAIRMAN LANNING: You're asking for the 15 list that the licensee has identified as a result of 16 their CMP activities. 17 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Correct. l 18 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Yes. That is a 19 horrendous list. We do not have that list. 20 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Who has it? They do, f 21 obviously. I 22 CHAIRMAN LANNING:

Well, Northeast g

l 23 should -- should have that list, yes. But I'm not sure 24 how easy -- O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

119 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O oECEM8ER 12 1992 1 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Do you want that 2 list? 3 MR. IMBRO: Wait a minute. Wait a 4 minute. 5 A VOICE: One at a time please. 6 MR. IMBRO: I think that the way NU 7 tracks -- 8 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Wait a minute. Why 9 dad you stop him like that? 10 MR. IMBRO: Because I think he's not 11 going to give you -- he may be misinformed. { 12 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Oh. Okay. I like 13 what he was saying. So go ahead. 14 MR. IMBRO: He may not be right, but -- 15 MS, PERRY LUXTON: Go ahead, Gene. 16 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Now, wait a minute. 12 Wait a minute. -l 18 MR. IMBRO: No. Let me tell you how I 19 understand. And'if you think I'm mistaken, then please f 20 jump in. 21 'As I understood this, as I understand 'I 22 it, there are many issues that have been identified by g l 23 NU, some through this formal CMP process and other 24 issues through the normal plant processes where as POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

i 120 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 people go about their routine functions, they find 2 things that are possibly incorrect and they'll write a 3 CR, a corrective -- 4 A VOICE: Condition report. 5 MR. IMBRO: Condition report. Excuse r 6 me. And so when you go into the NU data base, I 7 believe that -- we were told by NU that it's really i 8 s.npossible to understand or almost impossible to 9 understand which issues came out of the CMP and which 10 came out of the normal plant processes. They were all Q 11 captured in there. And so I

guess, as far as I

U (~} 12 understand it, NU cannot tell us precisely which things v 13 came out of CMP. 14

Now, there are certain groups of issues 15 that were captured under certain

-- like there were 16 open item reports and UAR's, unresolved items, those 17 types of things -- let me say it's a very complex 18 process. And I think there are some things that can be 5, 19 directly attributed to being discovered by the NU f 20 Configuration Management Plan. But by and large, the O 21 broad scope of CR's and ACR's, they're -- it's all in I' 22 the data base and it's impossible to tell what came out g l 23 of the formal CMP program and what came out of other 24 plant programs and -- D POST REPORTING SERVICE RAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 L u

l 121 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O oscz"8ta 1 1997 1 MS, PERRY LUXTON: But that's what NU 2 told you. Don't you find that a little suspect? 3 MR. IMBROs

Well, 4

A VOICE: I don't think it's -- 5 MS. PERRY LUXTON: No. I really -- I 6 want to know. I think we need to know everything so 7 that we know a basic outline of the scenario of the 8 Configuration Management and the whole broad scope at 9 the beginning before -- when they started identifying 10 the problems before S&L came on line. Q 11 MR. IMBRO: Well, we have that. And V 12 that's why we established a cutoff date. 13 DR. TRAVERS: Yes. There is clearly a 14 list that's tracked. NU has it. But what we were 15 trying to p.cint out was a distinction in that you asked 16 about whether we could identify -- we actually asked 17 this because we were interested. You know, we ordered 18 by NRC order them to do something. They decided to do 19 a CMP. So we thought it would be interesting to ask 20 them what did CMP specifically identify. O 21 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Fine. Right. 22 DR. TRAVERS: It turns out they didn't g l 23 track it that way. In the overall analysis, it's not 24 that important because what's important is all of the O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

122 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 things they have identified via CMP or any other 2 process that they've put in their system for corrective 3 action. That's really what'r., important. The 4 distinction about whether they found it in CM; or 5 another process might be interesting and I was 6 actually interested in finding that out. I asked. But 7 it just turns out that the way they tracked their and it involves thousands, thousands of 8 system 9 things, was not amenable or at least they didn't take 10 the effort to provide a flag that identifies which of P 11 the many thousands of issues -- 0 12 MS. PERRY LUXTON: When they found them. 13 DR. TRAVERS: - - t h a t-were identified. 14 We're just glad when they do identify issues and 15 correct them to ground. It's not nearly as important, 16 in fact, it's not important how you identify

them, 17 which process you identify them within.

It's much more l 18 important that you identify issues. And they're going 19 to continue to identify issues even after this plant f 20 restarts, if it ever does. And it's important that the O 21 programs they have in place are effective in I 22 identifying issues, identifying the fix to those issues g l 23 and actually implementing them. And that's been a 24 classic problem at Millstone that they need to correct. (O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

123 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS lh DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay. Okay. Thank 2 you. 3 CHAIRMAN LAIEING: Mr. Markowicz? 4 MR. MARKOWICZ: John Markowicz, 5 Waterford, Connecticut. I want to make a statement and 6 then ask a question. The statement is that with 7 respect to the question about trending analysis in the o Level 4's and probably in the Level 3's, but at least 9 the Level 4's, as a representative of the Nuclear 10 Energy Advisory Council I have participated in meetings 11 where those kinds of concerns are being addressed by 12 the regulator and by the contractors that are doing ) 13 that oversight. And I just wanted to make that 14 statement. 15 The question I have -- I might have 16 missed it because I was standing up. Did you discuss 17 what Sargent Lundy and Parsons briefed to the I 18 Commission on Friday regarding Tier 2 and Tier 3? 19 MR. IMBRO: No. 20 MR MARKOWICZ: You didn't. Could you? O 21 Do you remember what they said? I had some notes I 22 because they were specifically asked to give the SAT or g l 23 UNSAT. 24 MR. IMBRO: No. I don't remember. ~ POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l

124 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS '( ) DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 MR. MARKOWICZ: Okay. Let me just see 2 if you agree. Parsons would not answer one way or the 3 other. They didn't think they had enough data on Tier 4 2, Tier 3 or Tier 1 to answer the question. Sargent & 5 Lundy briefed Tier 2 and Tier 3 and they evaluated both 6 tc be SAT, with no significant findings. 7 DR. TRAVERS: Thus far. 8 MR. MARKOWICZ: Thus far. And that's a 9 status report as of the time of the meeting. I'm not 10 saying that's the final analysis. But that was their they were forced by 11 report because they were V (~} 12 Chairman Jackson to make a report. And they were not 13 in a position to make any statements on Tier 1 and did 14 not indicate they knew of any sho.rstoppers, either. 15 But I'm not going to -- but I just want to make that 16 statement 17 DR. TRAVERS: Thanks. l 18 MR. MARKOWICZ: so that the public 19 heard the whole record. Thank you. 20 MR. IMBRO: Other questions? O 21 MR. SILK: Tuere was a previous que3 tion .f the DPUC~had contacted anyoae in the NRC. I'd like i 22 g -l 23 to follow up a little bit on that. As you may know, .24 the rate payers are paying-53 million dollars a month v(3 PO:.T REPORTING SERVICE HAMPFN, CT (800) 262-4102

u 125-FORUM REs MILLSTONE UNITS ( )-l DECEMBER-17,- 1997 ll -for the. Millstone plants while they're not operating. 2 Quite-a. hefty-price tags for plants that_are out -3 because of mismanagement. 4 My question is this. How long do you 5 expect it will take for the DR's to be resoba i at the 6 present rate / 7 MR, IMBRO: I really have no idea,- I 8 mean when -- I mean, you know, I think certainly the-9 resolution of the DR's is a condition of getting the 10 -plant restarted. So I mean that as long as it takes,- 11 that's how long it takes. I mean they're working -- 's ) you know, both Sargent & Lundy and IRI are trying to 12 13

devote, you know, the resources to do this in a timely i

14

manner, But I mean they're complex and they involve a 15 lot of interaction going back and forth, And the fact 16 that there's a protocol in place to keep the review at t

4 17 arm's length certainly doesn't, you know -- somewhat. I 18 -hinders the review in terms of -- 19 MR. SILK: Would you have a minimum 2 -estimate? O- = 21 MR, IMBRO: No. I can't really .l !}l R. . speculate.co that.

[

23 MR, SILK: ENext week?- Will it be done-1 24 next week? Next month? I mean just a little -- a hint POST REPORT 153' SERVICE HAMDEN, CT '\\800) 262-4102

126 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS (f DECEMBER 17, 1997 of when it might be done. ~ 2 DR. TRAVERS: I think it's been asked 3 and answered. But I'll just follow on by saying that '4 in fairness here, there has been information provided 5 to the Commission about NU's own expectation about when 6 they'll be in a position to restart. This is a 7 condition of restart. The indication was that they'll 8 be in a position to come to the Commission in March. 9 So it's got to be before then. 10 MR. SILK: Well, do you think it will be _g 11 before March? What's the assurance? e (- 12 DR. TRAVERS: Look. We just answered (>) 13 it. We -- 14 MR, SILK: No, you didn't answer. Do -15 you -- I'll put it this way. 16 DR. TRAVERS: We don't know. 17 MR. SILK: You don't know. You think -- l 18 you could Give -- the NRC can give no assurance that 19 the DR issues -- 20 DR. TRAVERS: We don't have to give -- O will be resolved in 21 MR. SILK: 22 sufficient time for restart, of a March 1 restart. l 23 DR. TRAVERS: 'Let's be clear. I said it 24 before. I'll say it again. We're not working to a b \\# POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

l 127 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 7~s ( ) DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 schedule. We're working to the resolution of important 2 issues before restart. Asked and answered. 3 MR. SILK: Well, no, it's not answered. 4 DR. TRAVERS: It is. 5 MR. SILK: Are you confident that the 6 DR's will be resolved before March 1 based on present 7 rate of resolution? 8 DR. TRAVERS: If we dcn't know when 9 they're going to be

resolved, we can hardly be 10 confident that they'll be resolved before March.

11 MR. SILK: Oh, Then how come NU is V 12 confident that they'll be resolved by March 1 for ^ 13 restart? 14 DR. TRAVERS: You must ask them. 15 MR. SILK: So the company says one 16 thing, but we have no -- you can't say that that's a 17 good -- good or bad. l 18 DR. TRAVERS: And in case ycu -- 19 MR., SILK: No confidence. 20 DR. TRAVERS: In case you don't O 21 understand this -- and it appears you don't 1 22 MR. SILK: Yes. I don't. = 5: l 23 DR. TRAVERS: We have very distinct, 24 different roles from that company. (') POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 202-4102

= I 128 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 MR. SILK: Well, my question is -- I t 2 would like a direct answer. Do you feel confident that 3 NU will have all the DR's resolved so they'll meet a 4 March 1 restart date? Yes or ro? 5 DR. TRAVERS: No. 6 MR. SILK: No. Okay. Because I want to 7 report -- I want to report that to the DPUC. 8 DR. TRAVERS: Please do. 9 MR. SILK: Okay? That's -- I wanted to 10 get that cleared on the record, NRC has no confidence Q 11 or no assurance that that date will be met. 12 MR. IMBRO: We don't know one way or 13 another. I think the answer is we don't know. 14 MR. SILK: Okay. 15 DR. TRAVERS: Look. This is -- 16 MR. SILK: Thanks. That's done. 17 DR. TRAVERS: about as ridiculous l 18 line of questioning as -- 19 MR. SILK: No, it's not. 20 DR. TRAVERS: It is. It's ridiculous. O 21 MR. SILK: It's done. 22 DR. TRAVERS: I've answered the g l 23 question. de don't have confidence either way. 24 MR. SILK: Okay. That answers. That's O POST REPORTING SERVICE %MDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

129 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS [) DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 fair. That's excellent. I'll let the DPUC know that. 2 Thank you. 3 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Okay. 4 MR. SILK: Are we going to come back 5 after this? Because I have a lot of questions on 26 6 pages of violations. Are we going to have another 7 section here or should I go through this now? 8 DR. TRAVERS: Not if it doesn't relate 9 to ICAVP. 10 A VOICE: Later. Later. 11 MR. SILK: Okay. So after this section, U 12 we come back to general -- 13 DR. TRAVER;.. We're always willing o 14 address them later. 15 MR. SILK: Okay. Thank you. 16 DR. TRAVERS: And the reason for that, 17 in case you've forgotten or anybody else has, is the l 18 reason we've established this system of addressing the 19 ' issues as they're raised is because we want to make f 20 sure that people who have come here with knowledge and O 21 with-questions in this area get a chance to do it l 22 before we get into -- =I l 23 A VOICE: Yes. But you've tried to cut 24 off about-four speakers. You tried to end -- (~s ( ) ~ POST REPORTING SERVICE ' ~ ' HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

130 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS ( ) DECEMBER 17, 1997. 1 DR. TRAVERS: Before we get into '26 2 pages -- I don't think we did. 3 A VOICE: The Little Harbor thing. 4 About five people spoke, at least five people spoxe 5 after you tried to cut things off. So drop it please. 6 A VOICE: You drop it. 7 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Okay. Any other 8 questions for Gene? Okay. 9 All right. We're going to move on to 10 the Resident Inspectors Integrated Report. This is 11 Inspection Report 203. So if you came in late, we're U 12 not going to make a formal presentation as we have done (-)) u. 13 in the past. But we'll answer questions if anybody has 14 questions about the Inspection Report at this time. 15 Are there any? Okay. Joe? Do you have a question on 16 .the Inspection Report? 17 MR. JOE BESADE: Yes. l 18 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Go ahead. 19 MR. BESADE: The Inspection Report, is l 20 it your Inspection Report? 21 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Yes. I 22 MR. BESADE: Okay. I saw something that g l 23 -- I suppose I should introduce myself. 24 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Please do. A POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

E t 131-FORUM hus MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 19971 1 MR. BESADE:--Joe Besade from Waterford. 2 The -- is it working now? 3 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Yes. Go ahead.. 4 MR. BESADE: Okay. The inspection that 5 Ionossi did pert * 'ning to the pump and the ~ air, the 6 possibil ;y --' this what you're talking about now? -7 MR. IMBRO: No. 8 CHAIRMAN LANNING: That's a perfect 9 question. Go ahead and ask the question. 10 MR. IMBRO: Please. L -[ 11 MR. BESADE: Okay. Well, what is the U 12 outcome of this? I just saw the paperwork recently. 13 And have you come to a conclusion yet as far as whether 14 it's -- I'm going to let you -- you give the answers. 15 That must be the best thing. Go. 16 MR. IMBRO: The answer in a word is no. 17 We haven't. And the reason we haven't is that the 18 licensee is still assessing, assessing the implications I 19 in terms of the pump operability. And so they are 20 still trying to do _ calculations an-3ctual physical if 21 task. site,Las I understand it, to demonatrate at least t: 22 to-their own. satisfaction whether or not they think .'I i -l[ -23 this' is a problem that is a condition that would .24 prevent the pumps from doing -- performing the safety -A POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 1

132 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 function. So the answer is they're evaluating it and 2 we don't have a definitive-answer as to whether or not 3 this would or would not have functioned under those -4 conditions. 5 .MR. BESADE: Okay. The schematics that 6 I've seen is 50 percent of the heads have been capped 7 off in the containment on the -- am I talking -- we are 8 talking abou. the same system. Correct? 9 MR. IMBRO: Different issue. Same 10 system. g 11 MR. BESADE: The spray system. I can't 12 give you the exact 13 MR. IMBRO: Research -- 14 MR. BESADE: Okay. The engineering on 15 this now is being done by NU or Stone and Webster? Who 16 is coming up wi4 h these figures that this is the 17 correct way to go? I 18 MR. IMBRO: .T'm not really sure if it's 19 NU or a contractor. But what I will or can tell you is f 20 that since the RS and circulation spray system f 21 certainly, the spray system is a system that's being 1 -22 evaluated by Sargent & Lundy. Sargent & Lundy is going [ 23 to review all of those analyses and look at those 24 modifications. A-U POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

133-FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS DECEMBER 17,-1997 ) 1 MR. MARKOWICZ: Which-unit are you 2 discussing? 3 MR. IMBRO: 3. 4 MR. BESADE: 3.- Umm -- 5 MR. IMBRO: Take your-time. 6 MR. BUSADE: Okay. I should have wrote 7 it down before I got up here. 8 MR. IMBRO: You can come back. You can-9 come back and we'11 talk afterwards., 10 MR. CESADE: Okay. I'll have-to come -11 back. 7 12 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Okay. All right. 13 Okay. I think we're in the general 14 question-and-answer session now. 15 MS. BASSILAKIS: Okay. 16 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Is that right? 17 MS. BASSILAKIS: That's good. -h 18 The violation 'that was noted in the ll 19 November 21 report, which is the 203 -- okay? The one' 20 about not wearing the-dosimetry stuff. This isn't the 0 21 first time it's come up. It's-come up-again and-again i1-22 and again. What happens-from here? What do you'do to [ 123 ~ change-this kind-of behavior?- It's a very important-24 thing to do to. wear your dosimetry as you--go into a POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT -(800) 262-4102

.. ~. .-.., - - _ ~. 134 FORUbi RE: MILLSTONE UNITS ..[. [u . DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 radiological controlled area. And I just Lwant-_your-2 ' position-on this and what kind _ of action you think ~ 3 you'll take on it. ~ 4 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Do you want it? i. 5 MR. JACQUE DURR: Yes. You have to put -6 this in context. You're right. It's. repetitive. g 7 We've seen it before earJier this year. We've cited it .8 before. You.have to put it in the context,

though, s

9 that there are thousands and thousands of containment 10 or. RCA entries daily. So we're talking about one or l-11 two here and there. So it's not an insurmountable d. 12 problem.

But, yet, it's still a health and safety 13 concern to us.

And that's why.we've cited it, because 14 they need to strive harder to get better control of it. 15 But it's not like it's way out of control. I 16 MS. BASSILAKIS: Right. 17 MR. DURR: It's just that there -- it's 18 very difficult to control. They've got 'ike-5,000 5-19 people on site right now, somewhere in that vicinity. 20 So it's very difficult to control contractors and ~O, L. 21 -people who-don't. routinely work in nuclear power plants . 'j- ~22 to-~make sure that'they don't forget. Because it's a -l

23 case of they put their dosimeter to be countered.and 24 calibrated-and they forget it and they walk off and p-

'~# POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 L +. m m ,.y.

135 FORUM RE MILLSTONE UNITS (.) DECEMBER 17, 1997 %J 1 leave it, that kind of thing. They've put up a lot of barriers. They're taking a lot of actions. And we're 3 watching that very closely. And we just want to make 4 r.ure they get it right. 5 MS. BASSILAKIS: So it's generally that 6 people forget? 7 MR. DURR: Yes. It's been -- it's been 8 pretty much that people have forgotten their dosimetry 9 is a large case of what it is. They are preoccupied 10 doing something else and they walk into the RCA ithout g 11 their proper dosimetry. O rg 12 MS. BASSILAKIS: As a general question, V 13 the incident that occurred where the service water 14 intake was dredged somewhat and the material was 15 shipped to the landfill in Waterford and after a few it truck shipments it was decided it might be a good idea 17 to survey the trucks, you know, to find out whether or 18 not they might be radioactively contaminated. 19 I know that at -- I learned from talking 20 to the NRC down in King of Prussia that, in fact, at o 21 the Pilgrim reactor when they did a similar dredging a 1 22 number of years ago -- I'm not sure what .: it was. E l_ 23 Some time maybe in I don't know. Mid-90's 24 somewhere. They dug out their service water intake POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

136 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS [JD DECEMBER 17, 1997 u 1 area, measured it, found out it was contaminated. 2 I mean, first of all, I guess the NRC 3 never issued any kind of informational bulletin to 4 alert other nuclear reactors that this is a 5 possibility, that -- especially being where there's 6 tides that go in and out, that there's a possibility 7 that contamination could not just go out and dilute and 8 go away forever. I mean there's a possibility that the 9 contamination stays sort of local and, in fact, gets 10 brought in close to the intake. Okay? 11 Notwithstanding the fact that I think r~s 12 the NRC should have done some kind of generic bulletin (_) 13 or special notice -- I mean I know you guys have a few 14 different kinds that you do. Some need action. Some 15 are just to alert the licensee. 16 But notwithstanding that, I have a lot 17 of concern about radicactive material leaving 18 facilities. And I'll tell you. I live in Haddam. 8 19 Okay? The whole issue with the contaminated fill 20

10aving, the whole issue with thousands of blocks o

21 leaving that site is unconscionable. And, you know, I 1 g 2 T. know some people might think that, "Oh, it's low s l 23 levels. No big deal." But there's a lot of 24 controversy out there in the scientific community. And p. POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

_ ~ _. h -137 FORUM'RE: MILLSTONE UNITS { { DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 the ' fact is that. there's'-~ rules Esurrounding these-l 2 materials. And these-materials are'not -- I. don't care + 3 how. low.- They're not' supposed. to go out into the 4 general public. This should be prevented. 5 And this is very wrong.that' people, ~ 6 ordinary people, are being exposed. Workers are being 7 exposed beyond ever having their dosimetry badges.on. 8 I mean these are instances where, you know, people are-9 . handling materials-that are contaminated. And I would q 10 like for you guys to do something to assure us that [ 11 this-type of thing-won't happen. U 12 And I know that what leftland went to 13 tha landfill was really low. And I understand-that. 14 Okay? But my point is survey first, then ship. I 15 don't expect you to survey cars when they leave the 16 parking lot. You know? I'm not -- not those-kinds of 17 . things.. But to really do some critical. thinking and 1 I. .18 .have an understanding of what could possibly and 19 reasonably be contaminated. '20 'And I think that.if people had had that ^ o .1 UL -thinking cap on, they would have surveyed the first [.- i/ 22 . truck-'before-.it left. And then they would have, you [ 23 ,know,fascertained :that maybeDit was okay to do, which 124 is. reasonable. Okay? But the fact is they surveyed I ~ i - POST' REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN,!CT 800).262-4102 ( -..a .a.. . &.a.

I 138 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 after three, f our trucks lef t. And I don't like that. 2 And I live in a community now that'c facing -- trying 3 to reclaim all these blocks that left in '75 and trying 4 to re-figure out, you know, what the contaminants were 5 on these blocks and who was exposed and how 1cose was 6 the contamination to get tracked into houses where 7 there arc pregnant women, where there are children 8 playing on the patios that were built. 9 We need to stop this. And I want to 10 know what you guys are going to do to make sure that R 11 us, the people in the community, don't have to worry 6(s 12 abcut getting exposed. \\ 13 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Okay. I generally 14 agree with your assessment of the need to control 15 nuclear material when it goes off-site. We have a 16 requirement. And this -- these episodes that just 17 occurred that resulted in the potential for radioactive 18 (Indiscernible) off-site is really contrary to our 19 requirements. So we have a regulatory issue here. And f 20 it's a significant regulatory issue. O 21 But in this case, there was really no 0 22 threat to public health and safety, anybody's. It's 5 l 23 very, very low levels. Okay? 24 MS. BASSILAKIS: Mm-hmm. [ POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

139 I FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS }(). DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 CHAIRMAN LANNING: But,_ _nevertheless, i i

2 it's stillLa regulatory issue that we've'got to deal-

~ 3 with-here. And we are. And as you probably know, we 4 have taken samples at the dump' and at Northeast and-5 determined that these are very, very low levels. -6 So it's a very inportant issue. And I 7 just wanted'just to clarify. It doesn't make any 8 difference to the end, But they took the sample:before 9 .they took anything off-site. Unfortunately, they 10 didn't do the count of the sample until some-time __ g 11 later. L t'. 12 MS. BASSILAKIS: That doesn't matter one A '13 bit. Come on. '14 CHAIRMAN LANNING: That's what I said. 15 It'doesn't matter, But just for accuracy --- 16 MS. BASSILAKIS: So please don't -17 CHAIRMAN LANNING: For accuracy- 'l-18 purposes, they - .you've got to give them some credit 19 for taking the - initiative to do the count-before it 20 went-off-site. Because we had -- we, NRC,.had alerted -C' 21 Northeast Utilities, Millstone-precisely, " Based on the

l 22 lessons _that

~-- occurring ;at Haddam Neck,.you should .g ][ 23 ' ensure;you don'tzre-learn any of those lessons." So -- 24 MS.'BASSILAKIS: Okay. Can you put out ~' POST REPORTING SERVICE ~ HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 o a.

~.. - - - - 1140 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE-UNITS - f DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 some1 kind.of! special bulletin?- Can you -talk to the -2 folks who do that sort of thing and maybe -- no. -But 3 as far as the service water-intake possibly having 4 contamination and people who begin to dredge that 1 5 should look at it before they ship it to their. local 6 landfill. 7 CHAIRMAN LANNING: It seems to me that 8 as a result of.what has been going on at-Haddam -Neck, 9 there is something in the works to communicate 10 generically the need to do surveys prior to taking '.g 11 material off-site. I'm not really sure of the context t! 12 of which that information or whatever will be issued or-13 whether or not it will be issued. But there is some 1 14 activity to ensure that other licensees know about what 15 has been occurring at Haddam Neck, which is really much 16 more important than what had occurred at Millstone. -17 MS. BASSILAKIS: Is far as health and J-18 safety goes, I could possibly agree. But as far as _ 19 lessons learned, I think Northeast Utilities should .f_ 20 _probably the_-- at the top of lessons learned, And in-TO-21 that sense, I_think it's very significant that -- okay, l-22 They took-the samples. But if you don't measure them,- 'E ~ 4 } (( - 23 _it doesn't really matter. 24 - CHAIRMAN LANNING: Doesn't count. POST REPORTING-SERVICE HAMDEN, CT- (800)-262-4102 ,P' te-- e-.- 9 y u-

i i [141-FORUM RE:-MILLSTONE UNITS I DECEMBER 17, 1997' I L1 MS. BASSILAKIS: Doesn't really count. 2 CHAIRMAN LANNING: That's'right. I '3 MS. BASSILAKIS: And I. guess I would -4 differ from you in that I do see this as a health and 5 safety issue because the survey before you let 6 materials leave is. the very barrier that's meant to 7 -protect the public. So if you don't-have that barrier 8 in place and consistent, then health and safety-is,-in 9

fact, at risk.

It's sort of like driving without your-10 seat _ belt, I guess. You ';now? Even though you don't- .11 get in an_ accident, you're still at risk. - { CHAIRMAN LANNING: I understand your 12 O-13 point. 14 MS. BASSILAKIS: Than!ts. 15 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Other questions? 16 Susan? 17 (Applause) b 18 MS. PERRY LUXTON: I won't leave this as 19 a dump issue, but I think I will just for a moment, -20 just because'I got a call a couple of days later, after f 21 the newspaper article'-- . l 22 -A_ VOICE: A little louder, Susan. ' ll' 523 MS. PERRY LUXTON: I got a call a couple J24 of' days-later, after the newspaper article by an ex-POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT -(800) 262-4102 ,.w .p, a +-y <e-r-- n -m~~ r ,---w,.-e,n w e ---a

) i 142 1:t '"""ElABERi?!?!9?"* l E 1 _ ho was responsible.for giving 1 employee, ~ Jim Plum, w 2 -testimony to the State about the chemicals dumped into-i 3 Long Island Sound and now the AG of the State of 4 Connecticut is presently -- has suit against NU for t that for a million dollars. 6 Anyway, he said that we should continue 7 this line of questioning of NU and the

NRC, But-he 8

said - in 1995 when they took out the Unit 2 steam they had to replace all that 9 generator tubes 10 there was resin in the condensate polishing building R 11 that they had to get rid of.- Resin? h 12 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Mm-hmm. 13 DR. TRAVERS: Mm-hmm. i 14 MS. PERRY LUXTON: And so they had 15 several truckloads. This was all new to me what this 16

meant, condensate polishing and the resin and stuff.

17 B'It, anyway, so they took -- they had truckloads 1of -- -l _ 18 large trailer truckloads of resin. And chem techs had 19 to come and test. And they-found that the levels were needed a permit to be shipped. But because -- this 20 ' 'O;. 21 is before Galatis now, before this whole-scrutiny of l 22 the NRC and all that. The cost containment was a: - = 1 .l1 l23 problem. They didn't get the permits. They just '24 tested someplace-in the shipment and it came up not the '~ POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN,--CT (800)-262-4102 9 --Mq y -ey~ ppq 1,- a.-em-ew.a.evei -+yi m-.-, e a,. - --,e. m .My --ee

143 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS f~) DECEMBER 17, 1997 nj. 1 higher levels. So they shipped it all to the Waterford 2 dump. 3 So my question is how many times before 4 this did they ship stuff? And I need to talk to you 5 abot that because I want to find out if you know 6 anything about this incident. But I'm just telling you 7 what he told me. And I tried to get him on the show 8 tonight, but he couldn't come because he was mediating 9 with NU. 10 But the point is this is something we [ 11 need to look at further because I think it's perfectly u 12 reasonable for the people in the town to check into 13 what's happened previously -- 14 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Sure. 15 MS, PERRY LUXTON: as far as 16 shipments go. 17 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Sure. l 18 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Maybe, you know -- I 19 hopefully that won't be a problem. 20 CHAIRMAN LANNING: I would encourage the O 21 individual who has firsthand information about what i 22 took place to get in touch with me. E l 23 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay. 24 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Or NRC. POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

~ L144 O-FORUM-RE: MILLSTONE UNITS osceassa 17, 1992-1 MS. PERRY LUXTON:- Good. I'll tell him 2 that. 3 Okay. Now, I had a couple of questions 4 on -- 5 A VOICE: Microphone. 6 MS. PERRY _LUXTON: Oh. Sorry. -Sorry. 7 On Inspection Report No. 202.- Now, I 8 received this November 25. This letter refers -- this subject is the NRC Inspection 202. It's a reply 9 is 10 and it's written from Jacque Durr to Mr. Carns. g' .11 Now, the part I had a question about was -9 12 the statement of violations and it says, "(B) This is a 13 - Severity Level 4 violation. Paragraph 10

CFR, 14 completeness and accuracy of information, requires that 15 information provided to the Commission by an applicant

'16 for license, you know, or information required by a 17 statute or by the Commission's regulations or license _18 conditions to be maintained by the applicant or the g f 19 licensee shall be complete and accurate in all material if 20 respects." O i-21 " Contrary to the above, in letters to-lhl 22 the NRC dated May_ 29, 1997 and July 14, 1997, the lJ J23 licensee provided in part, quote,- 'significant items 24 needed to be' accomplished prior to restart" and items, O POST REPORTING SERVICE ~ HAMDEN, CT (800) '262-4102

145 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS I^) DECEMBER 17, 1997 V 1 quote, ' items to be deferred until after restart.'" 2 "This information was inaccurate or 3 incomplete in that, one, open item reports were not 4 included in the May 29 submittal. Control room 5 deficiencies and bypass jumpers were not reviewed for 6 inclusion in the May 29 submittal. All existing items 7 were not included in the submittal. And a number of 8 items that the licensee did not intend to defer were 9 improperly included in the list of items to be deferred 10 until after restart." 11 "The complete and accurate submittal is 12 important to permit the NRC to assess the potential 13 safety significance of all items that will be -- that 14 will not be completed prior to start-up." 15 All right. My question is -- when I 16 read that, I thought, my goodness, isn't this the same 17 kind of systemic or ongoing problem that NU has had I. 18 with being forthcoming with information? And I 19 because I got involved with the Galatis thing in '95. f 20 Isn't that what he asked? I mean he said that they had -O 21 given inaccurate information, mislead.ng statements and I 22 all that. = I-l 23 So my question is if this is a repeat 24 violation -- and we do know that it is. And I don't g ~ POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

146 FORUM ~RE: MILLSTONE UNITS {[ DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 want to have ---I don't have to stress to you how many i 2 times 'we-know this, that it's happened in the past, in 3 the last two years. We know. Why would this only be a 4 Level 4 violation and not a-higher violation than_that? 5 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Let me try and -- let_ 6 me just give you some background and make-sure that-7 we're talking about the same thing. We had issued a 8 demand for information letter to Northeast Utilities-9 asking simply."Give us two lists of equipment or items - 10 that's going to be

deferred, not fixed prior to g

11 restart, and those that will be fixed before restart." W 12 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay. 13 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Okay? Because we are 14 inspecting-the deferred list. And the reason for . 15 inspecting that deferred list is to ensure that all the- ' 16 safety-related issues are fixed prior to restart. 17 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Right. I - 18 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Okay? When they 4 ~ 19 submitted that list to us, quite simply stated they did f - 20 a very sloppy job of submitting that list to us. It 1h 21 wasn't -- didn't-really receive management's review. 22 LThere -- just the things you mentioned there indicated .l - 23 that they; weren't really-responsive to the

request,

~ i24 Okay? DOST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN,' CT (800).262-4102 y 7 --.r.... w r'4, m-, ....w....

147 FORUM REi' MILLSTONE UNITS DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 So when our; inspectors'came. to review-2 that deferred list, they found that the information.was 3 incomplete and inaccurate in some cases and so-forth. 4 And. so that's what occurred during-this particular 5 event that resulted in the violation. 6 MS, PERRY LUXTON: Okay. -7 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Now, there have been 8 previous violations dealing with inaccurate, incomplete 9 information. That's true. 10 MS. PERRY.LUXTON: Let me clarify that, g 11 There's been previous violations or previous instances? e 12 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Previous violations. 13 MS, PERRY LUXTON: Has there been a 14 previous violation? 15 CHAIPMAN LANNING: I think at least -- 16 MR. DURR: Yes. -17 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Yes. I.- 19 Several-18 MS. PERRY LUXTON: At least what? 20 CHAIRMAN LANNING: At least one. -.o 21 MR. DURR: What-are we talking about? -l-22 In how many years? .I 'l. 23 CHAIRMAN LANNING: 50.9. Right? 24 MS, PERRY LUXTON: Well, let's just go-POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800)-262-4102 r n-

A, ,_aV. Ls,,o ->-_,? H A e-s 54 -.Mn,-kk -a->Jt,_m a EA4m4-6:- +& d 43 <+AE -+4an= "na-s ^ k i 148 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS ' I (( [- DECEMBER 17,-1997' 11 - from 1995'on. 2 CHAIRMAN LANNING: '95 on. 3 RMS. PERRY LUXTON: Has there been any 4 4 violations? I don't think there-has. 5 A VOICE .I don't think so, either. 6 CHAIRMAN LANNING: -Not since '95. Well - 7 on-Unit 1. 8 MR. DURR: 9 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Well, that would be a e 10 very -- that's very_ surprising to me, number one, that _g 11 there has been no violations for-these guys for not -- 9 ' 12 for this problem between now and 1995. So that's why - do you_see my point here? I mean why_is this just a 13 14 Level 4? This -- this is a repeat violation, sirs. 15 And you must know that this is a repeat violation. 16 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Well, I'm not sure 17 it's a repeat violation--- 18 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Because it's so 8-19 specific, you mean? Because of the specific-thing? 20 CHAIRMAN LANNING: No. In this time 21

frame, that-was considered for. escalating due to l'

1 22 - repetitive violation. ll: 23 MS. PERRY LUXTON: I think if you take 24 into1-- [,Q. 3# POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 -=, x 'SE -,w-y , +. --- ,e-- - - -

149 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS l j) DECEMBER 17, 1997-1 -CHAIRMAN LANNING:-lLet mei heck and get c 2 _back to you. 3 MS. PERRY. LUXTON: All right. I think 4 so. Okay. Good. Then -- 5 .MR. DURR: What was the question? 6 MS, PERRY LUXTON: Yes. Why. isn't it 4 7 higher than a 47 8 CHAIRMAN LANNING: But the premise is it 9 should be higher because it's repetitive. I'm not'sure 10 if we've -- -g 11 MR. DURR: Yes. When we looked at this 17 they said, . 12 originally, when I talked to my inspectors, 13 "What we have found is that-there's nothing really ^ 14 significant in the pile of stuff that we've found. 15 There's no really bad stuff in there. But we said 16 considering the fact that th'. 3 is a big

deal, we 17 promised the public that we would review these lists --

I. 18 if you recall, we said we're going to look -- --19 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Right. Deferred 20 list. Right. f --21 MR. DURR: -- at the deferred list -- l1 - 22 MS. PERRY LUXTON: That's right. L -_ ]. 'l 23 Absolutely; 24 MR. DURR: Make sure that there isn'_t_ _.m O~' POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 1 a, ~- n -n

150 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 something in there that's not supposed to be there. So 2 we did that. And we didn't find anything of a nature 3 that it shouldn't have been in that list. But what we 4 did find was that they hadn't considered all of the-5 material out there -- specifically I think it's OIR's, 6 what they call OIR's. They hadn't considered those 7 things and put them in the piles one or the other. SO 8 they had missed things. 9 So the safety significance of what we 10 found was fairly low. But because this is a big deal, g 11 we said Northeast really ought to have done a better t 12 job. Ergo, we're going to cite this. So we gave them g-] \\_/ 13 a Level 4 violation. That's how we got where we are. 14 MS. PERRY LUXTON: But my point is, Mr. 15 Durr, my point is 10 CFR 50.59, whatever the heck, this 16 thing I just read to you, completeness and accuracy of 17 information, blah, blah, blah, blah, requires -- it l 18 doesn't matter how significant or anything, to me. 19 What matters is once again we see another time where f l} they're giving you inaccurate, incomplete information. O 21 That alone is

a. repeat.

It doesn't matter if it just I 22 said -- the phrase just said there was two flies on a -I l 23 table at lunch time. It doesn't matter. What matters 24 is they once again gave you incomplete information, ~~(h \\~l POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

+ 151-( E EMB R 9 1 - which they. had done numerous times in the past between 2 .just-1995 Land.now. 'So, therefore, it says in the Code ~ 3 of Federal Regulations that if you have repeat-4 violations,- that you should get a. higher penalty. -5 instead of a 4 violation.. It doesn't say that? 6 MR. DURR:

Can, it says you can.

7 MS. PERRY LUXTON: I was BS'ing on that. '8 -I -didn't know for sure. I didn't know for sure if it 9 said that. But it seemed like it'should say-that. . 10 MR. DURR: _ Don't I feel violated? 1md I 11 apologize for. standing. I should have my chair here, 12 but 13 MS. PERRY LUXTON: It doesn't say that? 14 I know. I was going to say that to you. But I'm glad 15 you mentioned it. 16 It'really doesn't say that? 17 MR.-DURRi But -- no. Let me explain to ~ I 18 you. - The Code of Federal Regulations and our 7 , enforcement policy says to the effect that this is not 19 f_ ~ 20 a' mechanistic thing. It's not an and/or, this or that. <O ' 21 What it says is that you-have to. exercise' judgment ib!' 22 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Oh, my gosh. g - ((l . 23 MR'. DURR: ---.and' discretion -- 12 4 MS. PERRY -LUXTON: - This is bad. This .D POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 --mI-e e w. y-e. 1.p. -.,_,_y.,,m.- y

i i 152 FORUM RE: MILLSTONW UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 scunds like -- this sounds like Mr. Kenyon's not-2 cookbook philosophy to me. [ 3 MR. DURR But that's our policy. It 1 4 says you have to -- i 5 MS. PERRY LUXTON So it's subjectiva. 6 MR. DURR It can ba subjective, yes. 7 And so people have -- what it says is you have to take 8 the thing on a case basis and evaluate it and determine 9 in this a big deal, you know, really big deal? And we 10 determined that tne safety cignificance of it is low. i 11 MS. - PERRY LUXTON: Okay. I disagree 12 with your determination on this -- )- 13 MR. DURR: I appreciate your 14 disagreement, i 15 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Yes. Okay. That's 16 od. 17 MR. DURR: And we recognize it. But I 18 that's the fact. 19 MS. PERRY LUXTON: All right. Thank 20 you. O 21 All right.

Now, another I have on this

.-l, g same report -- you may as well stay here, Mr. Durr. 22 -l _23 MR. DURR: Oh, I'ta sorry 24 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Is -- it was about POST REPORTING SERVICE 4 HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 4 + ~ n x, -,---n n

i i 4 153 FORUM RE: MI% STONE UNITS 'O-o=caaaaa 17 1997 1 this part on corrective steps that have been taken to 2 the Violation A. And Violation A had to do with the f 3 "R" core coating. Okay? And corrective steps that 4 they were going to echieve that had been taken by NU. 5 They did two root cause investigations and the key 6 elements of the corrective action plan. You know, they 7 go through all these five things that they did to 8 verify the coating and to make sure-the g ocedures were 9 correct and that the procedure compliance is clearly i 10 communicated by management and whatever. Those are the l 11 corrective steps they're taking to make sure there will 12 be no further vio'4ations regarding this situation with 13 the "R" core coating been put on. I 14 And finally it says "Date when full 15 compliance will be achievad" and it says

here, 16

' Millstone Ur.it 3 is currently in full compliance 17 concerning this violation " All right. How do I know 1 18 -- how do we know that they're in full compliance? How 19 can.you tell me that? g[ 20 MR. DURR: When -- in every case, in .O every violation that we issue to the utility, there.is 21 .l; 22 a-closure mechanism by which an inspectar will, in- {'I 23

fact, verify what the utility has-told us.

We don't -24 take anything -- POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN,.CT (800) 262-4102 k i_ '

154 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS -O. oscesasa 17' 1997 1 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay. f we're skeptical 2 MR. DIMR We don'- 3 when it comes to -- i 4 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay. Good. 5 MR. DURR: -- them telling us stuff. So 6 every violation is inspected -- 7 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay. 8 MR. DURR: -- enclosed in the Inspection 9 Report. 10 MS. PERRY LUXTON: G.. 'a t. 11 MR. DURR: So if you go through our 12 Inspection

Reports, you'll see where it will say 13

Violation, closed. " 14 MS, PERRY LUXTON: I'm just asking. I 15 just wanted to make sure. Okay. Good. Great. That's 16 good to hear. Thank you. 17

Now, next thing I have to go to is the 18 emergency preparedness inspection --

19 A VOICE: Microphone. 20 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Oh, I'm sorry. The O 21 emergency preparedness inspection of Millstone station l-22 of August 21, 1997, Okay? g l 23 Now, I have a couple of things to ask 24 you. This was written to Carns by, oh, Mr. POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

IS5 FORUM R3: MILLSTONE UNITS DECBMBER 17, 1997 1 Wiggins, who isn't here tonight. But, anyway, it says 2

here, "During the emergency preparedness program 3

inspection, the inspectors identified instances where 4 emergemey response facilities were not maintained in f 5 accord ace with the emergency plan." G Now, basically, we all know they did a 7 good job overall on the emergency plan. 8 CHAIRMAN LANNING: On the exercise. 9 MS. PERRY LUXTON: On the exercise. The 4 10 exercists.

Sorry, But they found training and g

11 procedures for dose assessment were not effective in U 12 asonring that personnel could perform radio, agir 71 dose l '13 assessment. activities in a timely manner. We'll get to 14 that later. 15 But first the question I have is 16 "Further, the inspectors found that Revision 22 of the 17 emergency plan made in June 1997 decreased the 18 effectiveness of the emergency plan, decreased it, and I 19 the revision was implemented without the -- underlined 20 -- required approval of the NRC." [ 21 Now, this put a red fleg up in my head I 22 because here we go with this -- they revised the plan, g l 23 but they didn't get the regelred approval for -- from 24 you guys for revising the plan, and then t. hey went POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

i 156 I PORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 through and used the piu., Doesn't that sound like 2 what they've always done with revising and modifying 3 but not getting the approval from the NRC? And they're 4 still doing it in June of 19977 I thought that was -- S I was -- you know, it's funny. I was surprised to see 6 that because under so much scrutiny and knowing that 7 this is a problem of theirs, why the heck didn't they 8 get the required -- tell me why they didn't get,'our 9 approva'. on the.t. 10 CHAIRMAN LANNING: We're going to g 11 understand that better during the enforcement U 12 conference this coming Monday where we're going to talk 13 about why these violations occurred and what corrective 14 actions would be put in place to preclude future -- 15 MS. PERRY LUXTON: And that's in King of 16 Prussia? 17 CHAIRMAN LANNING:

Yes, 18 MS. PERRY LUXTON:

Okay. All right. I I 19 can't go to that one then. But, anyway, I think that's 20 important for you to come down on them for that. f 21

Now, let's get to the dose assessment, k

22 I was looking through the report. And this concerns g l 23 me, you know, because they did really well. I mean 24 they good marks on everything with their, you know, A POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

= 157 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 interfacing with the community people and all that 2 stuff. But then when we get to dose assessment and the 3 chem

techo, I

was concerned about the chemistry "Six of the ten computation j 4 technicians 5 opportunities were performed incorrectly. The shift 6 managers have not integrated efforts of the chem techs 7 into the shift organization. As a consequence, the 8 chem techs frequently have little direction concerning 9 their activities. Of the six dose assessment 10 computations, one shift manager detected the errors P 11 made by the CT" -- okay. Wait a minute. U 12 But, anyway, there's a lot of things ) 13 that don't seem to be very good going -- went on with 14 the chemistry technicians. Problems noted during the 15 walk-throughs are attributed to a combination of poor 16 human factors, design of the EPOP and lack of training 17 on the EPOP for CT's and SM's. 18 CHAIRMAN LANNING: What do you mean by I 19 that? 20 MS. PERRY LUXTON: 1 must be sick that I f 21 enjoy reading these things now. Right? l 22 But, you know, what's going on with this l 23 dose assessment? You're going to talk to them about 24 that then? -'d POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 4 -Q< ~ +w- -g n,e, -,-p-

158 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 I 1 CHAIRMAN LANNING: We're going to talk 2 again about that. But this one is particularly 3 important because, if you recall, there were some of 4 the same problems were identified at Haddam Neck 5 previously. And so this was a test to see, once again, 6 it lessons were learned and the program had been 7 implemented effectively for Millstone. 8 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Oh, 9 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Because you have the 10 same organization involved in both units at one time. 11 MS, PERRY LUXTON: Okay. ~ 12 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Not currently. O 13 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Right. 14 CHAIRMAN LANNING: So this would be 15 another area that we'll pursue during the enforcement 16 conference on Monday, 17 DR. TRAVERS: But I think an important { 18 element in this is, hopefully, a realization that the 19 way we look at these kinds of issues -- you know, we 20 look at the drill to see how they might do in carrying 21 out their program on a given day. In this case, they 1 22 did a pretty good job. But we look underneath that as l-23 well at the program. And so in looking at some aspects 24 of the program where we found elements that we think O' \\" POST REPORTING SLRVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 ._.-w....,

159 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O o=c=" ara tv 1997 1 need improvement and probably should have been fixed 2 before we found them -- so that's really the basis. 3 But, hopefully, it gives you a sense of how we look 4 thoroughly in these areas, not just in an instance,_in 5 this case the exercise, but at the program itself. 6 MS, PERRY LUXTON: Good. Good point. 7 Okay. Now, at the last 1.hC' meeting here 8 at this

building, whenever it

was, November or 9

somett ng, I remember we were talking about-corrective-10 action problems and the root cause

analysis, 11 identification by NU and the procedure of identifying -

12 - of doing the root cause analysis. And we' -- wasn't 13 there e question that how NU derived the root cause of 14 the problems may have been faulty or the fact that, you 15 know, they come up with corrective action plans, but 16 maybe their root cause is flawed to begin with? 17 Now, did -- can you clarify that? Or am - l 18 I off base on that? I 19 CHAIRMAN LANNING: I don't recall. = 20 MS, PERRY LUXTON: You don't know? f 21 CHAIRMAN LANNING. I don't recall a p 22 discussion.at the. la.st meeting about root cause. J 23 . evaluations or results or.-- 24 MS, PERRY LUXTON: No? Nobody does? POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800).:262-4102

160 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 Okay. Okay. I think -- I think maybe that's it. Oh, 2 the cooling system probler.. Yes. Yes. This latest 3 thing with the air entrapment. We wouldn't want to not 4 talk about that tonight, would we? 5 MR. IMBRO: We did a little bit with 6 Joe. 7 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Oh, you did? 8 MR. IMBRO: Joe asked us questions. But 9 go ahead. 10 MS, PERRY LOXTON: Oh, is that what he g 11 was asking? U 12 MR. IMBRO: Yes. We've also had Jim 13 Leuhman here to talk about the whole inspection result. 14 But we'll be glad -- 15 MS. PERRY LUXTON: So isn't that similar 16 to what happened with CY and the nitrogen bubble? No? 17 DR. TRAVERS: No. l 18 MS. PERRY LUXTON: That isn't? 19 CHAIRMAN LANNING: No. 20 MS. IERRY LUXTON: Okay. I was under a 21 misconception then. Okay. It isn't. 22 MR. IMBRO: No. l 23 MS, PERRY LUXTON: But it's serious. 24 MR. IMBRO: Yes. Could be. (~' O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

161 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Could be. Okay. Do 2 you want to say something about it briefly? 3 DR. TRAVERS: Just that it could be -- 4 just to let you know or maybe as a reminder, we've 5 done, a couple of

times, provided a summary of the 6

inspection results. And this was one of the issues i 7 that the team leader, Jim Leuhman, described. And I 8 presented it to the Commission most recently. You can 9 read about it in the transcript. 10 And what I said in the Commission 11 meeting is that this is an issue, not just a technical g 12 issue, but it's a question of ultimately one data point 13 and how good a job or bad a job NU may have done in 14 CMP. I said it's one of -- one piece of information 15 that we expect we'll use. The -- 16 MS, PERRY LUXTON: What do you mean? 17 Because they didn't find it, you mean? I 18 DR. TRAVERS: Yes. Because we did and 19 they didn't. But the question of significance in the 20 technical sense is under analysis by NU. We're going 3 21 to have an enforcement conference on it. They're going i 22 to be able to tell us, hopefully, at that point where -l 23 they stand in their determination as to how significant 24 they believe this issue is. Potentially it could turn b' POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

_ _. ~ _.. _ _ _ _. _. _ _ _ _.. _. _ _.. _ _ _ _ _.. _ _ _... _ 1 162 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS } DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 out nt: to be very significant. But what I told the 2 Commission is as a minimum, we would have expected that 3 this kind of issue would have been identified and an 4 analysis triggered by virtue of that identification l 5 before we came in. 6 So we're going to use

that, the

{ 7 remaining team inspections that we have yet to j i 8 accomplish, the information provided by NU, all of [ 9 these things to integrate our ultimate assessment of. 10 the adequacy of CMP, Any one finding doesn't do it. 11 But we're certainly going to consider this. 12 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Great. 13 You're not taking any questions 14 regarding someplace other than Millstone, are you? 15 CHAIRMAN LANNING: No. 16 DR. TRAVERS: But afterwards -- 17 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay. I 18 MR. DURR: On the emergency response 19 issue -- f. '20 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Yes? .h does not that inspection 21 MR, DURR: 4 22 report this is now a restart issue? l '23 A VOICE: Yes. ~

24 MS.

PERRY LUXTON: But it didn't say i l POST REPORTING' SERVICE HAMDEN, CT' (800) 262-4102 i -,mr. .e,-- -,ene,+,- ,_n-

163 FORUM RE: MILLSTO!M UNITS (] DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 that in the paper. It said they didn't think it was a 2 restart issue. 3 MR. DURR: It's a restart issue. 4 A VOICE: It says it in the report. 5 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay. 6 MR. DURR: It's in the report. And -- 7 so that's how serious we think it is. 8 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Okay. Other 9 questions? 10 MR. SILK: Questions. A few issues to g 11 address. This one is kind of out of order, but since sp 12 some statement was just made about closure on Notices V 13 of Violation, how the NRC tracked them and made sure 14 everything was kosher at the end -- I'm surprised to 15 hear that because apparently someone who made that 16 statement didn't read the Millstone Notice of Violation 17 of December 10, 1997, specifically under one of the l 18 sections, Number 6. And I'll read it. 19 "In

1993, the licensee identified 20 deficiencies in the maintenance and testing of dual-o 21 function containment / isolation valves at Unit 2 which I

22 resulted in certain of those valves being unable to g l 23 fulfill their safety function, a significant condition 24 adverse to quelity." POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

i .j 164 i' FORUM RE: MILLSTO!!E UNITS (} DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 Then it -- I'll skip a little bit. It t 2 says, "The NRC issued a Notice of Violation for. this t 3 issue on February 2, 1994. NRC Inspection Reports", [ C 4 blah, blah.- Also, "The. licensee: identified on June 8, l 5 1995" -- this is a year and some months later - "that 6 corrective actions specified to address the significant 7 condition adverse to quality had not been taken." 8 It goes on, "However, as of March 20, 9

1996, the licensee had not implemented corrective

[ 10 action for this deLiciency." So we went from February g 11 2-of '94 when there was a Notice of Violation to March 12 20, 1996 and apparently the issue had not been i 13 addressed and closed. So when I heard that statement, i 14 you know, I'm wondering. Can you address that? 15 MR. DURR: My Senior Resident will keep 16 me straight here. But as I recall the issue, this is -17 on Unit 2. 18 MR. SILK: Yes. [ I. i 19 MR. DURR: That's how we found out that i 7 If 20 they didn't it, is we inspected it. O~ 21 MR. SILK: Yes. I 22 MR. DURR: So that's what I'm saying.- j 12 3 We did inspect it to closure and they didn't -- they 24 hadn't done-it. And we identified that they hadn't POST. REPORTING SERVICE i HAMDEN,.CT (800).262-4102 l

165 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 1 done it. 2 MR. SILK: As of when? As of March 20, 3 '96? Because they hadn't done it as of March 20, '96. 4 So when was it identified that they hadn't done it? 5 MR. DAVE BEAULIEU: The original issue 6 and original violation dealt with containment / isolation 7

valves, dual isolation valves.

And this -- it was 8 followed at once focusing on containment / isolation 9 valves. It was unable to be closed. And it was 10 followed up a second time by another inspector, a new 11 set of eyes. He expanded the scope beyond V 12 containment / isolation valves and says "Why isn't this . ) 13 issue applicable elsewhere?" And it was a good point, 14 a good question, that resulted in a second violation. 15 MR, SILK: So it was followed up 16 eventually in some manner. It just got expanded and 17 other issues got involved. So it just -- it went on. I 18 MR. BEAULIEU: Correct. And it was a 19 result of -- f 20 MR. SILK: Okay. Well, how long were o 21 they allowed to operate with these isolation valves in

• !2 such a condition after the NRC noticed this condition?-

= l f 23 It looks like they were operating from February 2, '94 24 through at least March 20 of 1996. They were still O.Q POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

166 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 operating and containment / isolation valves would not be 2 able to close against full force of steam pressure, 3 performing their line break isolation function. So we 4 went on'better than two years? 5 MR. BEAULIEU: Well, they were -- 6 MR. SILK: With these working or not 7 working? 8 MR. BEAULIEU: The Unit 2 was only 9 operating several months during that two-year period of 10 time. But you're correct. They should have addressed g 11 this issue. Prior to operation, they should have 12 addressed it immediately after the violation. 13 MR. SILK: And it wasn't. 14 MR. BEAULIEU: I agree with you. 15 MR. SILK: Okay. We'll come back'to the 16 Millstone Notice of Violation and Fine in a minute. 17 CHAIRMAN LANNING: But just a comment 18 now. You're talking about violations that occurred'at 4 19 least two years ago now. Okay? '20 MR. SILK: Yes. 21 CHAIRMAN LANNING: All right. I 22 MR. SILK: Okay. Yes. It's just l 23 it's part of the picture of NU's management. 24 Previously, I've asked -- maybe some of POST REPORTING SERVICE l HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 H l _. ~,

t 167 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 you were here -- about consequences of a spent fuel 2 pool nuclear accident. And the only possible reply 3 tuat you would say was that it would be unacceptable. 4 So I'd like to comment. I asked -- 5 CHAIRMAN LANNING: We answered that and 6 don't need to talk to it again. 7 MR. SILK: Well, I have -- I have some 8 testimony on this from an expert here. It's from a 9 Gordon R. Thompson, PhD. He's consultant to Center for 10 Energy / Environment Studies at Princeton University. Q 11 And he also works for Political Ecology Research Group u 12 out of Oxford, England. He did some looking at this. {) 13 And I will provide you guys with a copy of this as soon 14 as I can make a copy. 15 And in his estimation -- and he seems to 16 be a pretty decent scientist here. That for CZM-137 17 alone, there would be catastrophic contamination out to 18 an area of something like 62 miles by 62 miles. That's 19 quite a few square miles. So I guess contamination of 20 that size for a spent fuel pool accident certainly is 21 unacceptable, isn't it? I 22 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Well, I can't comment = 5 [ 23 on that because I'm not familiar with the report. 24 MR. SILK: Ch. Okay. O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 1

168 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 CHAIRMAN LANNING: I don't know in what f 2 context those-numbers are being given. 3 MR. SILK: I will provide it. I will 1 4 provide it_. <5 CHAIRMAN LANNING: So -- 6 MR SILK: And there have been previous 7 NRC studies of spent fuel accident scenarios which, as 8 I'm sure you all know, came very close to happening at 9 Haddam Neck when they had a failure of a gasket in 10 their refueling cavity some years ago. L R 11 Okay. Low-level radiation. Real quick. 12 It rings over and over in my head that I've read health ) 13 physicists that one track through one cell can bring on 14 - a health consequence. So I don't know where low-level 15 or high-level radiation comes

from, if one track 16 through one cell means you can have a consequence from 17 one track through one cell.

So I don't know about low-l 18 level. Does that mean you don't get fried all at once? 19 You know? Or it means your chance of leukemia is only f 20 one in a thousand or it's one in 100,000? But it's one !I =21 track'through one cell. I think I can track it back to 1 22

'maybe John Goffman, who was at least at one time highly ll

~ 23 esteemed by-the nuclear establishment in the United 24 States until work with Arthur Goth showed that POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN,- CT (800) 262-4102

h f 169 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS i { () DECEMBER 17, 1997 l 1 radiation was more dangerous than the government-wished 2 their research to show and they lost their contract, of l 3 course. 4 On Sargent

Lundy, I

was just 5 wondering. You mentioned that they're finding a lot of i 6 discrepancies when they're looking at their systems. 1 7 They're looking at, what, four major systems or -- j 8 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Yes. 9 MR. SILK Okay. Is there any trip wire 10 on severity of violations or mis-engineering things 11 they find as they're going through their four systems a J 12 that would make you say, " Hey, look. We're finding so {} 13 many

errors, so much wrong

here, so much mis-14 engineering.

And, boy, this Millstone Notice of 15 Violation and Fine show there's a

lot of mis-16 engineering." That will say, " Hey, look. We've got to 17 look at more systems." Do you have like -- I come back 18 to this. But a standard of performance objective? A I 19 standard? Is there one? 20 MR. IMBRO: Right now we haven't really-f 21 shown that they have found anything significant that's l 22 not:been identified by the licensee. So I'm not sure -- .l l23 MR. SILK: It's just gross numbers. 24 It's'just a lot, a lot of minor things. POST REPORTING SERVICE i HAMDEN,- CT (800) 262-4102 L

170 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 MR. IMBRO: But, again, you know, there 2 are only a certain -- a certain small fraction, say 10 3 percent of what's been issued now, that have actually 4 gone through the process and been closed. So the fact 5 that there are 700 DR's out there -- and these DR's 6 need to be evaluated by NU and then re-evaluated by 7 Sargent & Lundy. So if we wound up with a significant 8 number at the end, then we need to re-assess what 9 addition 41 things we might do. 10 MR. SILK: Okay. But at the present, 11 you don't have a trip wire number of saying if there g 12 are so many "X" violations at certain severity, that 13 we'll look at additional systems or anything like that? 14 MR. IMBRO: Well, we said -- I think w! 15 put forward guidance -- or not guidance. But I mean at 16 least some criteria, probably not as definitive as you 17 would like. But if we found, say, a Level 1, that 18 would likely result in an increase in scope, you know, I. 19 a valid Level 1. And so -- and I forget what the other 20 criteria were. Yes. Level 2, 3 and 4. Well, 2 -- 1, O 21 2 and 3. But I 22 MR. SILK: Okay. ll 23 MR. IMBRO:

But, again, it's nothing 24 ha"i and fast.

t)' POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 1

171 l FORUM RE: MILLSTONE INITS i O o=c=""=a 27 2SS' t 1 MR. SILK Nothing hard and fast. Okay.. 2 I have an additional question. What is 3 the makeup capacity of-the. emergency core cooling 4 system at Millstone 3 in terms of per gallon per minute j 5 or gallons per hour or something like that? 6 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Can you narrow. it-l 7 down as to what system, which pump? 8 MR. SILK: The whole ching in total. } 9 How much water? If you have a main -- if your main-10 pipe breaks somehow -- i g 11 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Unit 3? 2? 5 i .12 MR SILK: 3. Unit 3. 13 CHAIRMAN LANNING: 37 14 MR. TONY CERNE: (inaudible) -- GPM to 15 pump something like -- at four pumps. i 16 MR. SILK: So about 120,000 gallons 17 maybe? I - 19 That's an approximate -- 18 MR. CERNE: I have to verify that. 20 MR. SILK: But.then -- and your sump O-21 pumps -- .l' 22 MR. CERNE: This is fluid that's cooling [ T- . 23 the core. 24 MR, SILK: Okay. And how much'can your POST REPORTING SERVICE-HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 3 ,.--,r. .g y. .[,_, p., .,..y._. mg (g g ,,,_,_..,g.,, _y ,g.,;,,4..,, _.,,y

172 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 sump pumps handle? Yes. Sump pumps at the bottom of 2 the reactor. If the emergency core cooling system 3 comes on, doesn't the water get recycled? 4 A VOICE: No. These are the pumps -- 5 MR. SILK: So you have about 120,000 6 gallon capacity. Okay. What typically -- GNA, when 7 they had a tube rupture in their steam generator, what 8 is the approximate size of the number of gallons that 9 were being blown otit of the system? 10 A VOICE: 312. g 11 MR. SILK: What.? 800-- t' 12 MR. IMBRO: We don't know. We don't 13 have -- 14 MR. SILK: You don't know. 15 CHAIRMAN LANNING: No. 16 MR. SILK: Okay. And I've raised this 17 issue before. And I would eventually at some point l 18 like an answer. 19 CHAIRMAN LANNING: There's an NRC report 20 that looked at that event. That would give you an 21 estimate of the flow rate. But it's -- it's small. I 22 MR. SILK: Small. g f.l 23 CHAIRMAN LANNING: It's in the hundreds. -24 MR. SILK: All right. Now, what POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i

173 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS I'T DECEMBER 17, 1997 V 1 maybe this gentleman is better. What happens with 2 multiple tube rupture? I know you think it can't 3 happen because it's not in your design.

But, 4

obviously, a tube, multiple tube rupture could happen. 5 CHAIRMAN LANNING: We're getting into 6 the area of speculation beyond the design basis event. 7 Let's come back to Millstone -- 8 MR. SILK: That is Millstone. I'd like 9 to know if you have a multiple tube rupture, of what 10 number tubes rupturing in the steam generacor -- g 11 CHAIRMAN LANNING: I think -- U would over 12 MR. SILK: over 13 what's the right word? Overwhelm the emergency core 14 cooling system function? What number of tubes -- 15 DR. TRAVERS: We don't know. 16 MR. SILK: You don't know. 17 DR. TRAVERS: We're not prepared to I, 18 discuss it. 19 A VOICE: -- the main line would break-- ~ 20 MR. S' ILK: So you don't know. 21 DR. TRAVERS: We're not prepared to 1 22 discuss it, k l 23 MR. SILK: Not prepared to discuas it. 24 Okay. ( POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

-~ 174 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 DR. TRAVERS: Right. We're not prepared 2 to discuss it. 3 MR. SILK: Okay. Maybe next time. 4 DR. TRAVERS: I doubt it. 5 MR. SILK: No?

Never, hmm?

Won't 6 happen. 7 DR. TRAVERS: We're talking about 8 Millstone. 9 MR, SILK: Never happen. 10 DR. TRAVERS: People here want to hear g 11 about Millstone. U 12 MR. SILK: Millstone. You know -- 13 DR. TRAVERS: Not GNA. They don't live 14 around GNA. They live around Millstone. 15 MR. SILK: Okay. All right. 16 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Okay. Now -- 17 MR. SILK: No. Now we've got to get 18 into Millstone Notice of Violation and Fine. A lot of f 19 pages here, lots of things. 20 First question, is it possible that the 21 NRC will ever revoke an operating license? Yes? No? I 22 CHAIRMAN LANNING: If that's within our g .l 23 capability to (inaudible) I'll do that, yes. 24 MR. SILK: It is. It's in your ^--) I POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

175 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 capability. Are there any standards that would 2 again, a trip wire or a performance criteria that would 3 lead you to do so? l 4 MR. DURR: Yes. I think that 5 A VOICE: It's hard and fast material -- 6 MR. DURR: No. Yes. But there's no 7 hard criteria. But are there events or actions that 8 would cause us to do that? I think the answer is 9 probably yes. So egregious that we would exercise that 10 11 MR. SILK: You did it at Three Mile 12 Island. It happened. Right? You pulled their license {} 13 after Three Mile Island -- 14 MR. DURR: No. We did not pull the 15 license, no. 16 MR. SILK: They didn't even lose their 17 license to operate? I, 18 MR. DUR, No. 19 MR. SILK: That wasn't egregious? 20 CHAIRMAN LANNING: We're getting away C 21 from Millstone here. Let's come back to Millstone and l 22 ask your question about the -- g l 23 MR. SILK: My question is Millstone. 24 Will all these items that are addressed in this Notice (% ~ POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 n.

176 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 of Violation and Fine be fixed absolutely before the 2 NRC allows restart? e 3 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Generally, all those 4 violations in our captured in our Restart Assessment 5 Plan by number and they have to comp 1.ete the corrective t 6 actions for each of those violations prior to restart. 7 MR. SILK: That's very good to hear. 8 That's very good to hear. Thank you. 9 And so just -- gentlemen, I hope that 10 some day you will pull this company's license, period. g 11 Thi,s is such evidence of continuing mis-operation, U 12 mismanagement, mis-engineering, year after year after 13 year. If you're ever going to act, do so. Thank you. 14 CHAIRMAN LANNING Okay. Are there 15 other questions? Yes, Ma'am? 16 MS. MARY KUHN: Is this on now? Just a 17 quick question. You're probably as tired as I am. But 18 I do get nervous sometimes when I listen to you about I. 19 restart. I mean it makes me very nervous. For f 20 instance, emergency planning, I'd heard originally it 21 was a restart issue and then the paper says it wasn't. I 22 How you say it is. As I understand it, all of these g l 23 discrepancies could be a restart issue if they involve, 24 according to Mr. Steve Reynolds, generic problems that O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

177 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 f I have not been adequately addressed. Is that correct? 2 And that must be resolved before the plant can restart? 3 So that could be a restart issue. Right? 4 CHAIRMAN LANNING:

Well, let me ta'.h to 5

emergency planning and then Gene can answer the ether 6 question. 7 You're better informed than I am. 8 On the emergency preparedness

issues, 9

those are restart issues and the corrective actions 10 have to be implemented prior to restart. 11 MR. IMBRO: Was there another question? 12 DR. TRAVERS: That was the question, I ) 13 thought. 14 MR. IMBRO: I don't know. Say -- repeat 15 -- restate your question. 16 MS. KUHN: Well, it was just -- just 17 that Steve Reynolds who said that with regard to all [ 18 these discrepancies, that there could be some generic h [ 19 problems that had not been adequately addressed and 20 must be resolved before the plant can restart. That is S. 21 'that all of these things are presented as diddly little b 22 things but then, you know, when there become so meny of l 23 them, they have to be resolved before restart. Is this 24 [) ^- POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

178 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 MR. IMBRO: That's right. 2 MS. KUEN: Okay. I guess I get nervous 3 because when Susan was talking about Little Harbor's 4 report and they say that they have such a long way to 5 go, you know, do they have to -- do they hava to be up 6 to grade? And you

say, "Well, yes.

We have an 7 extensive follow-up program." This makes me ve. y 8 nervous because it seems to me that they need to mako 9 good grades over a demonstrated period of time before 10 restart o'd it seemed to me that you were kind of P 11 shifting ground by saying "Oh, no. There's going to be W 12 a follow-up after they restart." Do you see what I {) 13 mean? 14 That sort of thing makes me very nervous 15 when you maneuver around that way because what seems to 16 be promised at one point is just sort of shifted later 17 on. l 38

Now, I know that these

-- that these I 19 plants have been shut down for about two years. It f 20 seems a long time. I must remind you, however, that O 21 probably not much was done the first year. At least I 22 Mr. Kenyon when he came said that he had never seen g ll 23 such a dysfunctional plant. 24 A VOICE: I remember that. POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (000) 262-4102 l

179 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 199'? 1 MS. KURN: And he said the root cause 2 was managenent and implied that if he brought in his j 3 recovery

team, then the root cause would be gone.

4 Well, I don't know if the root ceuse is gone or not, 5 but the metastasis from the cance" is still there. 6 It's spread throughout the system. And this takes a 7 lot of time. And in that sense, one year seems 8 which is about -- well, of course, after he got here, 9 he had to set up his recovery team and it wasn't until 10 December that they could get going. So it's been about g 11 a year that he has been in operation. And that is not U 12 a long time for a plant that has had problems over 13 years and years and years and years. 14 So I just want to remind you of that, 15 that I think that restart time table is very important. 16 Tne biggest reason for rushing restart is a financial 17 one for NU. I think that's an important issue, but 18 it's not nearly as important as safety. And that's I 19 what's our concern. 20 CHAIRMAN LANNING: I agree with you. 21 Thank you. I 22 (Applause) g 'l 23 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Okay. Any other 24 questions? Joe? You're going to tell me it's beyond /~'s t POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN,- CT (800) 262-4102

1 180 FORUM RB: MILLSTONE UNITS <x() DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 10:10. Right, 7oe? 2 MR. BESADE: Say again, sir? 3 CHAIRMAN LANNING: You're going to tell 4 me it's beyond 10:00? 5 A VOICE: 10:07. 6 MR. BESADE: Oh. No. I estimated that 7 one again. 8 All right. Joe Besade, Waterford. All 9 right. The question that I couldn't remember before 10 was the NRC's finding of the teflon tape on the g 11 electrica), do you remember the incident in your 9r-) 12 inspection? ~ 13 MR. IMBRO: Yes. 14 MR. BESADE: Okay. Would you give me an 15 update on what's happening? 16 MR. IMBRO: I don't -- I don't really 17 know the answer to that. I don't really know what the I. 18 corrective action is -- you know, that was part of -- 19 that was wrapped up in a Notice of Violation. And, you 20

know, the licensee is going to respond to us within 30 21 days.

But, again, I don't know the -- 1 22 MR. BESADE: You don't -- s l 23 MR. IMBRO: I don't know what they're 24 going to do in response. It was part of -- it was q '~# POST REPORTING SE7.VICE RAMDEN. CT (800) 262-4102 h .._____________m

181-FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () _ DECEMBER 17, 1997 I wrapped -- I think. it was one example of - a violation. 2 lLthink there were several-examples. 3 MR. /ETER KOLTAY - (inaudible)- over here 4 has the details of the event.- But we had one example. 5 that they had teflon tape in the wrong ~ place and they 6 removed it and corrected tne procedure. We also had an-some other 7 example that they had the -yellow 8 material, plastic material, that should not be in that 9 place. And there's a violation. As Gene said, they're 10 going to respond in 30 days. g 11 MR. BESADE: Was that 30 days ago that .5 12 -you discovered this? 'It was only for that, wasn't it? {) 13 MR. KOLTAY: This was back in September. 14 MR. BESADE: I see. What level of 25 violation -- what level of violation will be --- 16 MR. KOLTAY: 4. 4 17 MR. BESADE: A Level 4. And this is 18 electrical? It was on electrical pipe, I'm told. 19 -Conduit? Liquid-was used inside. Outside they used 20 tape. And the recommendatiin by the NRC was -just-box o-21 it in? Am I -- L[ 22 -MR. KOLTAY: That's. unknown. -[ ~23 A VOICE: Don't know. 24 A VOICE: Let's talk -- can we talk POST REPORTING SER'TICE 7 RAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i

~... -. - 182-FORUMzRE:-M.LLSTONE UNITS. ' T DECEMBER 17,-1997- ~I -1 about it later? I'd 1be-happyjto discuss it with you'. ~ 2 .I mean after I refresh ry memory, we can talk about it - 3 MR. BESADE: He seemed to be a'little 4 bit familiar on the system. Did you -- would you care f 5 to enlighten the -- 6 MR. KOLTAY:

Well, it will take me some 7

time-to look it up in the report. So why don't you b just go on with some other question? I'll look it-up-9 for you and -- 10 MR. BESADE: No. I think -- that's g -11 about it for me for today. Thank you, gentlemen. w. -12 A VOICE: We'll try to get you -- 13 CHAIRMAN LANN ?G: He'll get you an l 14 answer. He's got the report. 15 MR. BESADE: He's from NRC? 16 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Yes. 17 MR. BESADE NRC? Okay. 18 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Peter Koltay, - I. f 19 MR. BESADE: Peter Koltay. Okay. 20 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Okay. -j

• co.

21 MS. BASSILAKIS: No, no, no. Just 22 brief, very brief. [ .23 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Hey,--take as much as 24 ' time as-you like. We're here to listen to you. m POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

183-FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS DECEMBER 17,=1997 1 A VOICE: I ~ forgot the. information 2 shields, too. 3 MS. BASSILAKIS: I think this is Unit 2. 4 Service water system. They recently had a flaking off 5 of a piece of the coating, six inches by eleven inches. 6 It clogged some kind of screen and created a diesel 7 generator inoperable. I'm just going off the top of my 8 head. 9 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Pretty good. Go 10 ahead. 4 g-11 MS. BASSILAKIS: It really sounds 12 significant to me. I'm sure to you. How du you make 13 sure this kind of stuff doesn't happen any more? I 14 mean I can think of the walls of a house and once they 15 start peeling, it's all over. I mean you really have 16 to go in there and scrape and grind and feather the 17 edges into the -- whatever surface you're painting so l 18 that it doesn't happen any more. So what do you do -19 inside service water p.4 pes to make sure this doesn't [- 20 happen any more? 21 CHAIRMAN LANNING: You've got to ~ determine-why the liner was delaminating from the wall 22

g. [

23 .of.the PVC pipe ~in.this case. So once they determine y 24

what; caused it,-then that sort of dictates what the-POST' REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800' 262-4102

_c. m

184 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 corrective actions are going to be. If it's -- if it's 2 a manufacturing process defect, they may have to do one 3 thing. If it was inadequate insulation, they may have 4 to do something else. That's still evolving. They're 5 still evaluating what the causes or cause was for that 6 delamination. But we do regard that as quite 7 significant. 8 MS. BASSILAKIS: So something like this, 9 is this a -- would thin be a restart issue -- 10 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Yes. in the sense that a g 11 MS. BASSILAKIS: 12 plant can't operate with a system that's functioning if 13 it has a potential to have this occur. So even though 14 you don't say this is a restart issue, it is in the 15 sense of the tech specs. 16 CHAIRMAN LANNING: It will have to be 17 resolved prior to restart. It's a significant issue. 18 We'll probably end up adding it as a significant item 19 list on the restart 20 A VOICE: It is already. f 21 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Is it already there? I 22 Okay. All right. It's a restart 5 ] 23 A VOICE: It's an update. issue today. 24 CHAIRMAN LANNINC: 1 POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

185 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS (( ) DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 MS. BASSILAKIS: Okay. The emergency 2 preparedness

plan, I don't really want to go into 3

details. But I know the report came out on the 21st 4 and there's like five Notice of Violations in there, 5 fairly significant violations.

And, of course, you 6

guys that you're having an enforcement conference on 7 Monday that we can't go to because it's in King of 8

Prussia, because it would be too far and hard and 9

stuff. But, anyway, my point is the report came out on 10 the 21st. Did Northeast Utilities know which what the violations were before the g 11 violations u ('N, 12 report was issued? q_) 13 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Usually as part of 14 the inspection and particularly during the exit -- we 15 had an exit that was open to public observation for 16 that 17 MS. BASSILAKIS: Yes. I didn't go. I 18 right. particular 19 CHAIRMAN LANNING: 20 inspection. And at that time, the inspector, the lead o 21 inspector, usually tells the utility what he thinks I 22 could be a violation. But really until a report is g_ s l 23 written and management reviews it does it really become 24 a violation. O ~ ^ POST REPORTING SERVICE -HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

m., 5' 18G FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS ~ -[ ).! DECEMBER.17, 1997 s 1 MS, BASSILAKIS: I was-just asking-g _ wondering how much progress -may have been: 6 2 because I'm 3 made in the area of corrective action on those 4 violations at this point in time because this is on the -5 -start-up agenda. '6 CHAIRMAN LANN7NG: Yes. 7 MS. EASSILAKIS: So I was just trying to 8 get a sense of that. 9 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Yes.-

Well, we'll 10 hear that -Monday.

That will be really the first g. 11 opportunity for us to hear what corrective actions they V 12 plan on doing or have done in response to those 13 findings. 14 A VOICE: Maybe next meeting we'should - 15 talk about it. 16 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Yes. Next meeting 17 we'll try to summarize how that came out, i 18 MS. BASSILAKIS: All right. 19 MR. CERNE: Wayne, to correct what was 20 just said to Rosemary, the "R" core isn't is a -- O'- 21 start-up issue on Unit 3,.which is the delamination. l; - 22 MS. BASSILAKIS: Right. If 23 MR. CERNE: The other issue -- which I -14 guess you were talking about Unit 2?. h POST REPORTING-SERVICE HAMDEN, CT.-(800) 262-4102 ~ l m. .. -. =, ie --

187 FORUM RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () DECEMBER 17, 1997 1 MS, BASSILAKIS: Right. 2 MR. CERNE: Is not something that right 3 now is on the start-up list but I guess will be 4 reviewed before start-up. 5 CHAIRMAN LANNING: And it probably will 6 be -- it will be. Mcw about that? 7 A VOICE: Write that down. 8 MS, BASSILAKIS: Joe's got it on tape. 9 CHAIRMAN LANNING: Okay. Any other 10 questions? Comments? g 11

Well, I

wish each of you a happy s r^T 12 holiday, the best of the seasons. Good seeing you. V 13 See you next year. Good night. 14 15 (Whereupon, the meeting was adjourned at '6 10:55 P.M.) 17 1 O i I O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

hs CERTIFICATE L; I, Paul Landman, a Notary Public in and for the State of Connecticut, and President of Post Reporting Service, Inc., do hereby certify that, to the best ' of my knowledge, the foregoing record is a correct and yetbatim transcription of the audio recording made of the proceeding hereinbefore set forth. I further certify that neither the audio operator nor I are attorney or counsel for, nor directly related to or employed by any of the parties to the action and/or proceeding in which this action is taken; and further, that neither g the audio operator nor I are a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties thereto, or financially interested in any way in the outcome of this action or proceeding. In witness whereof I have hereunto set my hand and do so attest to the above, this 6th day of January 1998, l W*Lt Paul Landman, President O i ii POST REPORTING SERVICE g I-800-262-4102 l _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _}}