ML20216D912
| ML20216D912 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Millstone  |
| Issue date: | 05/29/1996 |
| From: | NRC |
| To: | |
| References | |
| NUDOCS 9709090457 | |
| Download: ML20216D912 (91) | |
Text
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@ffiol01 Tednscript of Precocdings l
!c, . NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION l
Title:
Interview of Joseph Carter 50 24Cl394l42)
Docket Number: (not assigned)
Location: Newton, Connecticut Date: Wednesday, May 29,1996 0
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Work Order No.: NRC-689 Pages 1-84 0F$1
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".7NITED STATES OF AMERICA l 2
( NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION !
l 3
+++++
4 OFFICE OF NUCLEAR REACTOR REGULATION 5
INTERVIEW 6
x 7 IN THE MATTER OF :
8 MILLSTONE REVIEW GROUP : Case No.
9 : (not assigned) 10 ALLEGATIONS OF EMPLOYEE CONCERNS :
11 INTERVIEW OF JOSEPH CARTER :
12 ---------------------------------x 13 Wednesday, May 29, 1996 k
14 ,
15 16 Newtown, Connecticut 17 18 The above-entitled interview was conducted at 19 2:15 p.m.
20 21 22 BEFORE:
23 JOHN HANNAN 24 CARL MOHRWINKEL
.I 25 NEAL R. GROSS count REPORTERS AND MANSCRSOE 1323 RHOOE ISt.AND AVE., N.W.
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2 1 APPEARANCES:
2 3 QD Behalf 21 .thg Interviewee 4 BARBARA MANGIN 5
'6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 4
20
- 21 1
22 -
23 24
?
t 25 NEAL R. GROSS Count neomMS AND TRANSCROUW 1333 MODE 18tAND AVE., N.W.
came aseseas WAsMNGTON, D.C. 2000H701 (303) 334 4433
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P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2
(2:20 p.m.) l 3 .'HE COURT REPORTER: Do you swear or affirm 4 the testimony you're about to give in this interview shall 5 be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
"6 THE WITNESS: I do.
7 MR. HANNAN: Okay. Good afternoon. Today is 8 May the 29th, 1996. It's approximately 2:20. My name is 9 John Hannan, and I'm here 10 in Newtown, Connecticut, as a leader of a NRC 11 review team looking into the handling of employee concerns 12 and allegations at Millstone during the last ten years.
13 Let me introduce the other people. I have i
14 Carl Mohrwinkel with me, who is helping me conduct these 15 interviews. I've been involved in all of them so that we 16 could provide a measure of consistency to make sure that 17 people are treated fairly.
18 We have Joseph Carter this afternoon, and he 19 is being represented by his sister, Barbara Mangin, who is 20 the power of attorney. Barbara, this is an interview of 21 Mr. Carter. We would appreciate him giving us his answers 22 in his own words. If he needs to confer with you, that's 23 okay. You can provide that counsel along the way.
24 But we -- we really do want to get his answers 25 to the questions.
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Wa're on a fact-finding mission to figure out 2
what has gone-wrong with the process, and try to collect 3
f actual information through these interviews and our case 4
reviews to identify corrective actions, root causes and 5
make some recommendations that both the NRC and Northeast 6
Utilities can look at for improving the process for future 7 employee concerns and allegations.
8 We're not conducting an investigation. We're 9 not intending to rehash any of your prior cases. But if 10 we were to uncover information that we would want to refer 11 to the other authorities, we will do that either through 12 an additional investigations, through our office of 13 i
Investigations or other type of inspection activity that 14 we would refer to, Region I, our Region I Office in King-15 of Prussia, Pennsylvania, 16 We are focused on the process. We want to get 17 your input because we think you can help us put our finger 18 en what may have gone wrong in your particular situation 19 at Millstone.
20 We are transcribing the interview for two 21 reasons. One, so we can listen to what you're saying and 22 -- and ask the right kind of follow-up questions and not 23 be diverted by having to take notes. And second is we
, 24 want to have a-document that we-can refer to later as we 25 deliberate to come up with our -- our recommendations.
NEAL R. GROSS ,
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The occurocy of your trcnceript will be 2
important to us, so we want to afford you opportunity, as 3 we have others, to look at it again after it's been 4
prepared to make sure it's a clear statement of what you 5
meant to say and give you an opportunity to clarify s6 anything.
7 So if you wish to avail yourself of that 8 opportunity, we'll have our transcript custodian make 9 those arrangements to come back and have you look at it in lo the near future.
11 THE WITNESS: Will I get a copy?
12 MR. HANNAN: You will be given a copy.
13 MR. MOHRWINKEL: At that time.
\'
14 MR. HANNAN: Yes.
15- MR. MORRWINKEL: Yes.
16 MR. HANNAN: At the time you --
17 THE WITNESS: Well, then I need two copies, ,
18 one to correct and one for me.
19 MR. MORRWINKEL: No, you -- we bring one copy 20 and you read it and you fill out a second sheet. It's the 21 errata sheet it's called.
22 THE WITNESS: Right, I --
23 MR. MORRWINKEL: And you put the copies on-24 there. We'll get them to xerox it. We give you the i
25 original that you review, you keep it, and we'll xerox the NEAL R. GROSS cous neromen ANo TmANocsueen 1323 FMODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 orreto ch00ts with the warden here and give you that too.
- 2 And we'll keep the originals.
(
3 So, you'll have the original transcript that 4
you reviewed and the xerox copy of your comments. We'll 5
keep the original of your comments so we can go back and
- 6 add it to all our copy of your comments -- our copy of 7 your transcript rather.
8 THE WITNESS: Okay.
9 MR. HANNAN: I should also add that the reason 10 we are -- we are making additional copies is so each one 11 of the review team members has it. We don't intend to 12 share it outside of our review team.
13 But at the conclusion of our review effort, 14 after our final report is -- is produced, we would intend 15 to place your transcript in the public document record 16 unless you object.
17 If you told us you didn't want us to do that, 18 we would withhold it under our regulations.
19 THE WITNESS: I want it published --
20 MR. HANNAN: Okay.
21 THE WITNESS: -- because I am the motherload.
22 You -- you've -- you've come to the goose.
23 MR. HANNAN: Okay. Well, that's good. We'll 24 -- we'll make sure it gets put in the -- in the public
{
25 domain at the conclusion of our review effort. Is there NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TMNSCRBERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE N.W.
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cny othor quoctiono, cdministrative details we -- you need
!(
1 2 3
to have answered before we begin?
MR. HANNAN No.
4 MR. MORRWINKEL: Let me just say this because 5 I haven"t had the opportunity to talk to you on the
- 6 phone, and I am the case reviewer for your case along with 7
one or two others, and I've talked to your sister quite a e
few times on the phone, just so we understand the ground 9 rules.
10 We sent you this piece of paper, which I see 11 that you have, which outlines the general questions. And 12 as I said to Barbara on the phone, we're not here to 13 represent you. We're not here to come to conclusions on 14 the rightness or the wrongness of your older concerns.
15 What we're here to do is hear what you have to 16 say about what happened. How do you think NRC could have 17 done a better job? What did we do right? What did we do 18 wrong? What did the Licensee or.the subcontractor that 19 you worked for do right or wrong? And when did they lose 20 you?
21 In other words, you tried to work within the 22 system initially by filing concerns with your shop steward 23 and so on. And what was it that turned you off the
, 24 process? i t
25 That's the kind of questions we'd like to l
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focuo on-todty, co end that'o why wa'ro ocying these. So 2
as I_-said a:few minutes ago, this is -- this is your 3 interview, and we'd like for you to just address these
~
4 questions and tell us what's on your mind.
5 THE WITNESS: I could keep five of you busy
._6 straight through for two weeks. I have -- that's why I 7 asked how many -- how many pieces. Was it 15 or 75 that 8.
you received of -- and, you know, my thing started -- my 9 problems started in June of '87.
I had been on site since
, 10 '72.
l 11 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Oh, '72?
l-12 THE WITNESS: Yes.
13 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Okay.- I thought our records i
14 indicate you had been.there since '79.
15 THE WITNESS: Okay. No, '72.
16 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Seventy-two. Who did you 17 work for in '727 18 THE WITNESS: You see, this is going to be 19 damn hard off the top of my head.
20 MR. MOKRWINKEL: Well, it's not -- it's not 21 that significant.
22 THE WITNESS: I would say --'I would say -- I 23 would guess Bechtel in '72, i 24 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Let me clarify that. I 25 apologize. I spoke on top of you. That's one of the l NEAL R. GROSS -
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thingo you forgot to say and I forgot to say. We have to 2
watch that because otherwise it screws up the tape.
3 We have to try and talk one at a time, and 4
wait until the court person finishes the question. And I 5
violated that first so I was a good example of a bad 6 example.
7 It doesn't really make so much difference 8
specifically who you worked for in '72, but I was -- if 9
you said I worked for Northeast Utilities, that weuld make 10 it easier. If you worked for a contractor, like you said 11 Bechtel --
12 THE WITNESS: I've always worked for 13 contractors.
\
14 MR. MORRWINKEL: Okay, then that -- again, 25 15 years ago -- 25 years ago, that's really not going to help 16 us too much.
17 THE WITNESS: Well, it is. It is.
18 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Okay. We're really primarily 19 interested in what happened in the last ten years, because 20 it's going to be almost impossible to reconstruct what 21 happened in '72.
22 THE WITNESS: No, it is not. Have faith. I-23 will take you farther than you want to go with this case.
24 You ride this pony, and I'll give you the top of the 25 mountain. I promise.
NEAL R. GROSS coum neromans moinmsensens 1323 MHoOE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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10 1 I'va rickOd my life. I've done this. I put 2 my life on the line in '87. And you have no idea. I 1
I k
3 should not be here. This -- this should be done under l 4 federal protection right now. My life is in danger.
5 But I'm willing to put my life on the line for 6 this situation.
7 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Well, why don't you tell us 8 what happened then, so then we can get this on the record?
9 THE WITNESS: I -- well, to start with, your lo questions -- to go with the format -- if we go through the 11 format first and this -- this interview -- if this -- if 12 this situation is going to be properly handled that this 13 is only an introduction from me to you, I -- now, the shit i
14 is about to hit the fan.
15 I will bring you to the White House from the 16 Millstone point. As I said, I answered these things. I 17 was just given a pencil a couple of hours ago. Ask me 18 your questions. You be precise, and I'll be succinct.
19 And then we'll have a discussion.
20 MR. MORRWINKEL: Well, why don't you --
21 THE WITNESS: Does that make sense?
22 MR. MORRWINKEL: Sure. Why don't you work 23 from the questions that we sent you like --
24 THE WITNESS: Go ahead.
25 MR. MOERWINKEL: -- just walk through them.
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What hao been your experience with the Millstone Employee 2
Concerns Program and the NRC allegation management system? <
3 THE WITNESS: And my answer, that in 1987, it 4
4 was non-existent.
5 MR. MOHRWINKEL: That's right.
6 THE WITNESS: In 1991, it war extremely l
7 shabby.
8 MR. MORRWINKEL: Which was, the Employee 9 Concerns Program at Millstone, right?
10 THE WITNESS: Both.
11 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Both, okay.
12 THE WITNESS: And the allegation management, 13 there was none really.
I 14 MR. MOHRWINKEL: At NRC?
15 THE WITNESS: At Millstone point.
16 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Let me clarify that. The 17 question, Millstone Employee Concerns Prograra is the 18 Millstone Program. Allegation management syster. is the 19 NRC system.
20 And you are absolutely correct. In '87, there 21 was no Employee Concerns Program at Millstone.
22 THE WITNESS: In 1991, I took a 27-page 23 article that you could see because in July of '87, I had 24 said, as I told you, I had been on-site at -- parts of 1
25 each year, of nearly each year since 1972.
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I know the skeletons of Millstone I. I buried 2 some of them. I know the ins and outs.
I know what's i t
3 wrong. I know who's making the money. I know -- I know ,
4 where the corruption is. I will show you corruption that i 5 will give you nightmares.
6 I will show you the connection of Joe 7
Lieberman at Northeast Utilities. It's interesting that 8 "your enforcement officer at Navy King of Prussia is named 9 Lieberman.
10 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Well, he's the -- Jim 11 Lieberman. He's the NRC's Director of Enforcement at 12 Headquarters, Jim Lieberman, 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. Now, let's find out what k
14 relation he is to Joseph Lieberman, the Senator, because 15 until last year -- the reason I wanted this -- the 16 interview in Connecticut, I really -- would really --
17 we've got to do this at my house with a roomful of 18 documentation so that what I say can be verified, that up 19 until last year when the Hartford courant was sold to a 20 california company, all reports on Northeast Utilities 21 were written by Sue Kinsman, okay?
22 MR. MORRWINKEL: She worked for the courant?
23 THE WITNESS: She worked for the courant, but 24 she worked for Northeast Utilities, okay? Now, you check 25 out the Board of Directors, the ownership of the old --
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you know, up until icst yacr of tha courant and Northeast
, 2 Utilities, okay, and you look at the political 3 contributions to Joe Lieberman, okay, inside and outside 4 of Connecticut and the support that he got from the 5 Courant.
'6 Now, when I brought this article, the 27 pages 7 to the courant, there was a reporter that was killed. The 8 reporter that I gave this article to was killed.
9 MR. MOHRWINKEL: What year was that?
10 THE WITNESS: This was 1987.
11 MR. MOHRWINKEL: And who was the reporter.
12 THE WITNESS: I don't know his name.
13 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Man or a woman?
t 14 THE WITNESS: It was a guy. And they'll tell 15 you that he ran off the road, okay, and died. Well, so 16 did Karen Silkwood, you know?
17 The story of Millstone I would round out a 18 trilogy of Karen Silkwood and China Syndrome, okay? Now, 19 as far as employee concerns, since being in prison, I have 20 run across -- now, here's a concern for you which was 21 typical of both my '87 attitude that there's a guy named -
22 - I want to say who is looking for a 23 golfball-size piece of plutonium so that he could put it 24 in the intake of Unit II.
25 Now, there are these people running around.
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14 1 The -- ask me question two if you will. t 2
l MR. MOHRWINKEL: I don't really have to ask ;
3 you the questions. >
4 THE WITNESS: Okay.
5 MR. MOHRWIMKEL: You can just walk through 6 these. I mean, what do you consider to be the primary 7 problems of these two programs? Now understand, they're 8 talking about Employee Concerns at Millstone and the NRC 9 program.
10 THE WITNESS: Okay, (A) NRC has no heart and 11 no teeth and they only offer lip surface. In '91 when I 12 took the 27 pages to show what was supposedly the NRC 13 representative at Millstone Point, I went into the plant 14 unguarded, okay? And that's -- for me, it's risky. To be 15 on-site with those people, is a risk.
16 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Okay, let's back up.
17 THE WITNESS: Now, I--
18 MR. MONRWINKEL: Let's back up for a second.
19 Who did you see that worked for NRC in '917 20 THE WITNESS: I can't give you his name. It's >
21 documented. It was a guy. I introduced myself. And he, 22 with a trench coat and shoulder-length hair, reeking of 23 cigarettes, told me that he was a law student, that, you 24 know, "I would be a lawyer, but I'm working for the NRC 25 instead."
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And I said, "Well, here's 27 pages for you.
2 Bite this."
He asked if he could copy it, so we went into 3
one of Northeast rooms, a room where they filter the 4 employees through. Here's a copying machine. And he left 5
the last page of this document in the copier.
6 Now when I discovered it, I said, astupid, go l 7 back and get it." You know, I was exposing to him stuff 8
that, as I've said before, could get me killed. And he 9 leaves the stuff in the copying machine.
10 MR. MORRWINKEL: Were you in the NRC Resident 11 Inspector office that time?
l l 12 THE WITNESS: No. No , I wasn't. That
, 13 happened in 1991.
I.'
14 MR. MORRWINKEL: The story you just told us 15 was '91 with the copying machine? That was that one?
16 THE WITNESS: That was -- now see, even my 17 years are fuzzy. It could have been '90, because it's the 18 time when I also go ahold of the FBI.
19 Now, you mentioned King of Prussia. King of 20 Prussia is dirty. The people, the NRC people at King of 21 Prussia are dirty. I can prove it.
22 . I have documentation.
The fact that I -- the 23 'whole -- 4 24 You know, had I never, in 25 '87, said I'm going to the press, I wouldn't be
- W
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16 1 today, okcy?
2 I went --
it was probably '90 that I talked to l k
3 the guy with the shoulder-length hair. At that very same 4
time, and you can cross references, an FBI agent named 5 okay --
6 MR. MOHRWINKEL: How do you think you spell 7 that? l 8 f THE WITNESS:
9 Now, wds a young FBI agent. I wouldn't M..
10 call efficient, okay? Now, during this segment of my 11 time in the '90/'91 thing -- e .- ,
12 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Yes, that's from 13 New Haven, okay.
( 7 94W 14 THE WITNESS: Now, talked to somebody at 15 Millstone Point, and then there was a -- the group -- *
- s 16 told me that there was a half a dozen people going to King 17 of Prussia to discuss which cases they would investigate.
18 MR. HOHRWINKEL: Okay, let me ask a group of 19 people from where wete going to King of Prussia? .
20 THE WITNESS:
7hh was one of them.
21 MR. MORRWINKEL: FBI agents?
22 THE WITNESS Right. FBI and, I was told, IRC 23 people would sit down in King of Prussia, decide what 24 they're going to look at. Well, if you read the 27 pages 25 that I submitted in '87, you see, what happened then, it's NEAL R. GROSS CoUm REPoMERS AND UW4CMBDS 1323 AHo0E ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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17 1
ironic that -- as I said, I've been there since '72, 2
But by 1987, by July of '87 or June of '87 3
actually, because of the amount of corruption and the 4
entrenchment in the whole system, I said, aGuys, this is 5 ridiculous."
'6 I personally took a package behind -- I placed 7
it behind the control rooms of I and II. Now, you take 8 out I and I'm talking bombs. You take out one and you've
- 9 got them both, okay? I left a package half the size of
! 10 i this table, cubed, and locked it behind the panel, okay, I
11 and then went to the NRC people and say " Hey, boys, if I 12 can do this, so can a lot of other people."
13 MR. MOHRWINKEL:
I What was in the package you 14 locked in there?
15 THE WITNESS: There was nothing.
16 MR. MORRWINKEL: Nothing.
17 THE WITNESS: It was an empty box.
18 MR. MORRWINKEL: Yes.
19 THE WITNESS: But --
20 MR. MOHRWINKEL: You were attempting to show 21 the lack of security, I take it?
22 THE WITNESS: To demonstrr.;e the fact -- now, 23 I have seen -- you see, I'm good at what I do. Because of 24 my ability, I often work in the control room, okay? I 25 have seen people fall asleep from overdose of cocaine in NEAL R. GR&BS ocum mapomuns ne w scenans
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7 18 1 tha control room. And thoco oro cubcontractors. These
- 2 are not Millstone employees. They're not Northeast 3
Utilities -- Northeast employees, okay?
4 In '87, I -- at the end of June, and this was 5
after -- I wasn't feeling well, but I said, " Guys, I've
. 6 had enough. This -- this can't continue. You know, it's 7
just a matter of time before we wipe out millions of 8 people. You know, I've had enough.
The money is not 9 worth it."
10 I said I was going to see Carl Zinnser, and 11 this is verifiable, Z-I-N-N-S-E-R. Carl.
12 MR. MOHRWINKEL: And who was he?
13 THE WITNESS: He was a State Rep, a friend of k
14 mine in Rochester, okay, an honest man, a rare thing. I 15 said, "I'm going to the newspaper," because the last week 16 I was employed at Millstone Point in '87, I bought a 17 raffle ticket on an AR -- either 15 or 16 folding 18 automatic weapon.
19 And it was on-site, so you could see it -- see 20 if you wanted to take a chance on it, okay? There's a 21 guy, wh has, at that 22 time, a marijuana farm in Arizona which he tended part-23 time, okay?
24 MR. MOHRWINKEL: And who did he work for?
(
25 THE WITNESS: He worked for the same NEAL R. GROSS coum espomEns ANo Twecseems 1323 MHo0E ISLAND AVE N.W.
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i 19 1 contractor that I did. And this was -- I think 2 was after '87. But in '87 because of the corruption and 3
the dope -- you see, it took me a long time to figure out 4 what the hell was going on, okay?
5 How, the number two dopo importer on the East 6 Coast is a brother of an employee at Hillstone Point. And 7 these guys have every toy in the world. And I said why --
B it doesn't make sense. If I had more money than God, why 9 would I work seven 12s? It doesn't make sense, does it?
10 Unless you understand marketing, And when you 11 have a product, you need customers. And where better to 12 find your customers than 300 people making $3,000, $4,000 13 a week and no time to spend it, who needed a little boost?
14 And that's why -- and the names are in here.
15 That's why we can't do this in one swell foop, okay?
16 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Let me back up for a second 17 though if I may. First, I want to clarify a couple of 18 things before we get too far off, which I should have said 19 earlier, I think I said on the phone to Barbara.
20 Those of us who are on this review group 21 headed by Mr. Hannan here have had very little experience 22 or no experience with Millstone. And NRC did that for a 23 purpose because of some of the kinds of things you're 24 saying, i
25 People at NRC who may have had prior NEAL R. GROSS court REPoRTIRS AND TRANSCMBERS 1323 FNoOE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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20 1
cxparicnco may have pre-conceived notions of what was 2 right or what was wrong there.
3 I had never set foot at Millstone until I got 4 on this task force. Two of the other people on the task !
{
5 l force had had absolutely no experience with Millstone 6 either.
7 So, we come in with no pre-conceptions of 8
who's the good guys and the who's the bad guys and who's 9 right and who's wrong. We have none of that.
10 John did one inspection there ten or more 11 years ago, and one other person on the team worked there 12 briefly, again, more than ten years ago.
13 So, three of the five have no connection at f
14 all with Millstone, and two have very limited connection.
15 So, we don't know a lot of the people that you're talking 16 about.
17 And the NRC asked us to perform this study 18 because we don't have a pre-conceived notion. So, I 19 wanted you to understand that, that we come in with an 20 open book if you will, and we're willing to listen to 21 everybody's view on what's right and what's wrong there.
22 Secondarily though, as I said to Barbara, I 23 don't want to rehash your case, but I understand your case 24 is somewhat different than some of the other ones we 25 looked at.
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21 1
And to ploy D3vil'a cdvocate with you for a 2
k second with some of the things you're talking about. I de 3
know that the NRC did -- did look into the drug testing 4
records of some of the people that you earlier identified 5
as being potential users, and they all had clean samples.
- 6 Now, I know you're probably going to say they 7 were selling samples on the site also. That --
8 THE WITNESS: Don't assume anything.
9 MR. MORRWINKEL: Okay, but that is in your 10 file though.
11 THE WITNESS: I've seen it.
12 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Yes, that information is 13 contained in your file. That was one of your allegations l'
14 actually.
15 THE WITNESS: I've seen it.
16 MR. MOMRWINKEL: Yes, yes. No, I wasn't 17 making an assumption that that was what was going on. I'm 18 saying I'm making an assumption you're going to react 19 because that charge was already made.
20 THE WITNESS: It was -- it was taught, okay?
21 I'll give you the name of the teacher, okay?
22 MR. MOHRWINKEL:
Are these people still 23 employed there as far as you know?
24 THE WITNESS: Unfortunately. That's the scary 25 part. As last as '91, when I got back on-site, okay, the NEAL R. GROS 8 coum nanomnB AND TWGCNest tags R4o0E 18 LAND AVE., N.W.
22 1
thing that roc 11y upcot me is there was a period, and I 2
would say probably in the early 90's, when -- that there k
3 was some action taken and some people were restricted from 4
site for wheezing wizz -- that's dirty urine, okay, pee, 5 okay?
- 6 But and these people were restricted from 7 future employment. But now these people are getting back 8 in.
And the same shift that was in force in '87 is 9
stronger now because of the pukey job and the wussy job 10 that NRC did. Because NRC went in and said, "Yes, it's I
11 terrible. Nah, nah, nah, I can't do anything about it."
12 You don't have any teeth and you don't have 13 any clout. Now in order to be effective -- we can jump --
l 14 you know, number two is what do I consider the primary 15 problems is no heart and lip service from NRC.
16 When I went back -- and I got the job back 17 because in '87, after I made my stand and said, "I'm going 18 to the" -- to me, the term " whistle blower" didn't exist.
19 I said, "I'm going to the press. I'm going to 20 my friend, the State Rep, because this shit has to stop."
21 Within a week, it was disclosed that I have E 22 ] Apb
,J 23 MR. MOHRWINKEL: What do you mean it was 24 disclosed?
(
25 THE WITNESS: I just found out. After I made NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPoRTUB AND T7%NSCPUBERS 1323 rho 0E ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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23 1 tho ototcm:nt --
2 MR. MOHRWINKEL:
( Oh, you found out from your 3 physician?
4 THE WITNESS: I found out.
5 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Okay. You're not saying that
'6 somebody at the plant had confidential information about 7
and released it?
8 THE WITNESS: That's right. No.
9 MR. MOHRWINKEL: You just discovered you had -
i 10 -
l 11 THE WITNESS: That's right.
12 MR. MOHRWINKEL: --
13 4
THE WITNESS: Like on Wednesday, I said, 14 " Guys, it's all over, you know? This has got to stop and 15 I'm going to stop it." Say on Friday, because I had a 16 cough. And they said, "Will you go to the doctor?"
17 And they paid for my doctor trip. So, I went 18 to the walk-in clinic, and it's in here someplace. You 19 know, that clinician said, " Wow, tonight you're going to 20 be in a medical center anyplace in the world. We prefer 21 you go to Dempsey, okay?"
22 And that was probably July -- the first week 23 in July, I would guess the second or third, okay, that I 24 went to the doctor. '
(
25 I went back to Millstone and told the guys NEAL R. GROSS count nanomme uminvecneen ISIS nHoOE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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y 24 1 that I w30 going to the hospital. And that's a kiss of
. 2 death. What I had was -- I'm going out.
3 Well, it didn't happen that way. I didn't 4 die. Ha, ha, ha.
5 MR. MORRWINKEL: You look pretty healthy now.
6 THE WITNESS: Well, don't --
7 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Well, you do.
8 THE WITNESS: Looks can be deceiving. I know 9 it better than when I'm in the shits. And I am right now 10 in the shits and I'm not being medically treated 11 correctly, right now. And I could bleed to dead before I 12 hit that door, and that's where I'm coming from.
13 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Now let me ask you this
)
14 thought if you were concerned about your safety and you 15 had these concerns --
16 THE WITNESS: I wasn't.
17 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Well, then why did you tell 18 people at the plant that you were going to go to the press 19 and go to the Congressman?
F 20 I didn't know I had, q w,.THE v WITNESS: %
21 When I made that statement, I felt as good as s
22 you do right now.
23 MR MOHRWINKEL: But that's not my point about 24 't really tie-in. If I
( ~ s 25 understood you correctly, your concern was this activity NEAL R. GROSS count asponrtas ANo Trweensen 1323 RHoOE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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25 1 involving drugs going on at this site.
2 !
THE WITNESS: I was drugs, corruption, I 3 disorganized crime.
4 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Okay, but --
5 THE WITNESS: You can't put one of them and 6 say --
7 F
MR. MOHRWINKEL:
Butputtingaside{
tA U 8
M because at the time you didn't know you 9 had -
10 THE WITNESS: That's right.
11 MR MOHRWINKEL: -- why did you announce to 12 the people at Millstone that you were going to go to the 13 press and to this Congressman? Why didn't you just do it i
14 without announcing it to people?
15 THE WITNESS: You know, I have to think about 16 that for about three years. You know, that's how high is 17 high up, you know? Good question, Carl. But that's not 18 going to give us any answers.
19 MR. MOHRWINKEL: No, but --
20 THE WITNESS: I don't know why.
21 MR. MORRWINKEL: -- I'm curious because then 22 you're saying you're concerned for your safety.
23 THE WITNESS: Oh okay, I'll -- I'll give you 24 one maybe -- maybe, you know? I have an attitude. I've 25 had an attitude for my whole life, you see? You don't NEAL R. GROSS coum peoMEMS ANO UWSCNSUW 1333 PHOOf 8 LAND AVE., N.W.
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26 1 bothar me cnd I d:n't bothcr you. But if you stick your 2 hand in my hole, I'll bite you, you know?
k 3
You fuck with me and you're going to lose.
4 That's Joe's law. Now, there's some stuff that I don't 5 want on this transcript, but this attitude started when I
,6 was three and a half years old, okay?
7 When I was 27, having been through four years 8 in the Marine corps, put my life on the line for this 9 country and done some shit -- I've been to places you 10 can't come home from.
11 At 27, when I was financially capable to do 12 what I wanted in life, I became an apprentice carpenter 13 because I would never tell anybody that I was something I'
14 that I wasn't. I would not tell you that I was not a is carpenter unless I could build you and furnish a palace.
16 And at that time, the business agent for 17 Hartford -- and I've always been outstanding. I 18 represented Hartford in a carpentry contest and lost. The 19 business agent says, "You know what's the matter with you, 20 kid?" He said, "You're a fucking crusader."
21 And I said, "You could kill me. You can't eat 22 me. Right is right." All my life I knew I came here for 23 something. And my goal in life was to make this world a 24 better place.
f 25 I want to leave it better than I found it.
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27 1 I'll do it ens way or another.
2 Why didn't -- why did I say -- because I k
3 wanted them to know. Because if you're doing something --
4 if you're dirty then you deserve to be caught.
5 And I'm going to look you in the eye and say, i
- 6
" Carl, I want you to knew when it comes down that it was 7 me that brought it to you." -That's a personal little 8 tingle that I get, okay?
9 If I'm going to get you, I'll call you and 10 tell you I'm coming, and then I'll come. And that's your 11 answer to why I told them.
12 MR. MOHRWINKEL: That's a good answer. Let me 13 clarify one thing about these tapes because you made k
14 reference to it a second ago. You also said you wanted to 15 go in the public document room, which is fine.
16 If you feel a need to tell us something about 17 individuals that you feel are involved in a criminal 18 activity, you should feel free to do so.
19 When this goes in the public document room --
20 first of all, if you -- if you put stuff on these tapes 21 that you -- you can change your mind about the public 22 document room.
23 But if you want it to go in the public 24 document room, we are required by law to remove Privacy 25 Act information. So, if you say to us " Joe Blow is a NEAL R. GROSS coum muomuns ANo twocaeus taas mHoOE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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28 1
crook," okcy, wa have to take that information out. We 2
would redact that statement that, " Joe Blow is a crook,"
3 will not appear in the public record just so you 4 understand.
5 THE WITNESS: Joe Blow's business agent.
6 MR. MOHRWINKEL: So my point is, if you have 7 an admission that you feel --
8 THE WITNESS: No, no, I -- Carl, I told you --
9 MR. MORRWINKEL: I just want you to understand 10 what we're --
11 THE WITNESS: I put -- I put my -- this is my 12 life --
13 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Yes.
I 14 THE WITNESS: -- okay? Now, it's a miracle 15 that I'm breathing today, okay, because in 1987 16 17 And I asked what the outside -- what's --
18 what's the worst-case scenario because I would -- well, I 19 could be Braveheart, William Wallace, okay?
20 MR. MORRWINKEL: Just saw the movie, as a 21 matter of fact.
22 THE WITNESS: Okay, then understand me.
23 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Yes.
7 24 THE WITNESS: You know? You'll not put my 25 head on London Bridge and I'm going to bring my limbs to NEAL R. GROSS coVRT REPORTERS AND MMSCNSER$
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29 1 tho four earn ro of Englcnd. I've told Barbara I'd love 2 to go out fighting. I would. This is my opposition.
3 So as far as naming names, yes, I will. The 4
names that I will name need to be named. America needs to 5 know. Now, if America chooses to remain sheepish, so be
- 6 it.
7 John Kennedy said, "All that's necessary for e
evil to succeed is for good people to do nothing."
9 Barbara said, "I'm here by choice." Okay yes, I'm here by 10 choice. I have -- I don't have two choices. I am bound 11 by truth.and justice. It sounds -- it sounds old and 12 corny. I've been called a dinosaur.
13 Question three: "What are the reasons these
{
14 two programs did not work well for you?" And my answer 15 was the opposition to progress is too infringed: labor, 16 management and security.
17 Millstone Point is ruled by dope. In 1985, I 18 met Eleanor Nabb. Sherman Nabb was a co-founder of 19 Northeast Utilities. He and a guy named Ernie from 20 Western Mass and Electric and three other companies in the 21 late 50's told the world looking at nuclear facilities and 22 formed what you learn is a very small corporation 23 registered in Connecticut -- in Massachusetts.
24 Northeast Utilities is not a big company, 25 okay? Sherman, Ernie and three other people formed this NEAL R. GROSS o00M MPoMERS AND TRANSCNSERS taas RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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30 1 cmn11 corporation. They combined their funds and sold 2
their idea of electricity would be so cheap, you wouldn't k
3 have a meter on your house, okay?
4 Connecticut Yankee at Haddam came on line in 5 1959, okay? Northeast Utilities as a company, again 6
understanding something about business -- while the theory 7 of cheap energy is attractive to everybody, we all want 8 something for as little as we can get it, right?
9 Now, electricity with now meter is hey, we'll 10 take that, okay? But the -- the company itself -- it's a 11 funny thing about a company. A company has no mind. I 12 mean, -- company policy. You know, what is a company, 13 okay?
{'
14 A company is those money-making people inside 15 of it, you know? The company is mindless, guiltless, 16 soulless, emotionless, okay? So, you can't have a company 17 policy, okay? We can have a we-in-the-company policy.
18 Now, the company got bigger than the five 19 people. The opportunity for excessive gain was too great 20 for those five people to overlook.
21 And very soon in the 50's, disorganized crime 22 got involved. And the answer back to your second 23 question, why do NRC's programs not work? The people you 24 have at Millstone Point who profess to be NRC
( 25 representatives, in my opinion, couldn't make it on what I NEAL R. GROSS coum ncpompe me mmsensens 1323 PHo0E ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 31 1 call tha cutoida, you know?
2 They're government tit-suckers. They have a
(
3 job.
They -- you know, if they lay low and don't make 4
waves, they get a check for 20 years. Don't see it, go 5 along, get along.
s 6 Plus with mobsters, if I -- Carl, if I start 7 to you about an injury. If I tell you I made $16,000 8 getting this elbow fixed. And the way this elbow got 9
unfixed was introducing to people's noses, okay, now you 10 be a good boy and I won't show you how it's done, is 11 exactly what happened to the NRC people at Millstone l 12 Point.
13 And I'll give you -- I'll give you the elbow 14 bearer, okay?
15 MR. MORRWINKEL: Are you saying that NRC 16 people weren't doing the job because they were threatened 17 by --
18 THE WITNESS: They.were afraid.
19 MR. MORRWINKEL: Threatened physically?
20 THE WITNESS: They were. Yes, they were.
21 MR. MORRWINKEL: By whom? g,{
22 THE WITNESS: His name is Carl, have 23 you ever read those 27 pages?
24 MR. MORRWINKEL: I have to see which 27 pages
(
25 you're talking about.
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32 1 MR. RANNAN:
Could wa take that on the record?
2 MR. MOHRWINKEL: We're not going to read it on 3
the record, but do you have copies of this or --
4 MS. MANGIN: You have a copy of it.
5 MR. HANNAN: Can we made a copy or --
- 6 MR. MORRWINKEL: You sent this into the 7 Agency?
Okay, I haven't had a chance to flip through it.
8 THE WITNESS: You see, this right here --
9 MR. MOHRWINKEL: This was the package you sent 10 to us, right, Barbara, I think?
11 MS. MANGIN: This is a -- yes.
12 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Yes, okay.
13 THE WITNESS:
If you believe that, it will 14 curl your toes, okay? This will answer all your 15 questions, t
16 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Okay.
17 THE WITNESS: And then it just gets worser and 18 worser. And yes, there are names in there.
19 MR. MORRWINKEL: Okay.
20 THE WITNESS: Now, I went to Constagno, okay, 21 because I deal with the top. I don't fart around with 22 middle management, okay? I hate middle management, you 23 know? They don't have the responsibility of labor or the 24 authority of ownership. So, I went to ownership, okay?
25 MR. MORRWINKEL: This is the stuff, Barbara, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND T1%NBCf30ERS 1823 rho 0E ISLAND M , N.W.
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33 1 thnt you Cont in.
Wo do have a copy of this in the file.
2 You sent this to Berkhouse, so I do have that.
3 But Joe, let me say this though. And what I'm 4 -- what I'm concerned about -- again, a lot of this 1
5 information that you're telling us today is in the l allegation file that we got. As you had implied earlier, 6
7 the NRC did turn seme of that over to the FBI as late as 8 1988, if I recall the date correctly.
9 My concern though is -- and again, I told you 10 we were not involved at that time -- that these things 11 were looked at and they came up with nothing. So, I want 12 to ask you --
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, but see -- but that --
14 that's --
15 MR . MOHRWINK.~ ,: -- if you have additional --
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
17 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Okay.
18 THE WITNESS: And the reason they came up with 19 nothing was because they said, " Whoops," because this was 20 bigger than they could handle. That's why down the line, 21 the -- four: "Were the specific circumstances which I 22 believe contributed?" And I say "Yes."
23 And I call it the C rtel." Now, 24 would be honored to be compared to, you know, a Cartel. .
25 MR. MORRWINKEL: And who are the NEAL R. GROSS court REPomRS #C TMNSCft9EMB 1833 MHoOE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
y 2844438 WASHINGTON. D.C. 30006 4701 (202) IS4-4433 _ _ _ _
341 1 THE WITNESS: That's a matter of nepotism
(. 2 which is one of the major problems. Now to show you the
, h, 3
I would show you the management of Northeast 4
Utilities and Millstone Point and disorganized crime.
5 That's why I say that this has to be just an s
6 introduction, that you, in order to do the right thing, 7 are God-bound to observe my evidence, because it wasn*t 8 done in, like you said, as late as '88.
9 Now, I will show you -- when I said that King 10 of Prussia was dirty, I had -- in '87, I had a significant 11 other, the love of my life. I was living at her address.
l 12 There is -- there was some communication to me at her e 13 address in with a zip code of f King of 14 Prussia about what a marvelous job they were doing. If I 15 have any questions, to call them.
16 Now a couple of years later, I got a reference 17 from King of Prussia about some correspondence in '88 18 situations, '88/'89. They infer that the correspondence -
19 - or in '91. Yet, the letter was posted to my house, and 20 I have the envelope at my house. /
21 The envelope was posted to my house,in 22 zip code t he time, with the zip code, 23 which tells me that they screwed up.
/ 24 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Yes.
25 THE WITNESS: Okay?
NEAL R. GROSS CoVM REPOMERS #C TRWSCMODS 1323 rho 0E ISLAND AYE., N.W.
)
35 1 MR. MOHRWI!sKEL: "They," being the NRC?
2 THE WITNESS: "They" being King of Prussia 3 personnel --
4 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Right, right.
5 THE WITNESS: -- didn't want to admit that we had talked earlier. There was a lot of shit that they had 6
7 that they sat on, okay? Now, if "they" is you --
8 MR. MORRWINKEL: No , "they" is not me.
9 THE WITNESS: No, I'm saying --
10 NR. MOHRWINKEL: No , I know you're being l 11 serious. "They" is not --
12 THE WITNESS: You're all one kettle of fish.
13 i
MR. MOHRWINKEL: "They" is not -- no, "they" i
14 is not me, "they" is not us. That's what I said a few 15 minutes ago, that we are -- we are a completely different 16 group.
(
) 17 And because of the controversy -- obviously 18 here, so you may have not 19 seen the newspapers and so on. But this has been 20 extremely controversial, and I'm sure you know that, 21 Barbara.
22 The Hartford Courant a week ago ran a two-part 23 series beginning on Sunday about the management, or lack 24 thereof, at Millstone.
25 THE WITNESS: But nobody has hit it from my NEAL R. GROSS coum Recomuns ANo Twecseems 1828 RH00E ISLAND AVE., KW.
WASHINGTOR D C. *="M1 GOS N ___
y 36 1 cnglo --
. 2 MR. MORRWINKEL: No, nobody has.
3 THE WITNESS: -- because nobody has had the 4 courage that I do.
Nobody else has ever dared to put 5 their life on the line.
6 How, you'll find -- you'll find people who 7 \
profess to be doing something about the Millstone deal.
8 You'll find Joe Biden, who made a bunch of noise in I 9 think about February about what should be done with 10 nuclear regulatory, okay?
11 Now, the truth is that again, if you talk to 12 l
Carl Zinnser and ask him the first time that I ever talked 13 i
8
, to him. I took Carl a briefcase full of stuff.
14 And because Carl is a personal friend, I laid 15 the briefcase on his desk and said, " Carl, look at this 16 because either I have something, or-I'm as crar.y as a 17 shithouse rat." '
18 MR. MORRWINKEL: I'm just checking the date on 19 that letter you just showed me. It was August -- what was 20 it --
21 MR. HANNAN: October.
22 MS. MANGIN: October ninth.
23 MR. MORRWINKEL: October.
24 THE WITNESS: What I'm telling you is that NRC 25 has sat on some valuable information for a long time.
NEAL R. GROSS coum meromuns ANo Tweenese taas nHoot ISLAND Avt N.W.
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37 1 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Well, you know, that may well i 2 be. I mean, as I said, that is not us. And that's, as I 3 told Barbara --
4 THE WITNESS: But that's what has to be 5 exposed.
- 6 MR. MOHRWINKEL: And that's what I told 7 Barbara on the phone. We're here to get information from 8 you. If you -- as you are giving un facts of what 9
happened with you, your case going back quite a few years 10 already, if we find there's stuff there that needs --
11 information that you 12 re giving us that needs to be turned over to our office of 13 Investigations, we will do that.
k 14 THE WITNESS: It needs to be turned over to 15 NSA.
17 THE WITNESS: National Security Agency. This 18 -- this is a national threat.
19 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Okay, but the National 20 Security Agency doesn't really do internal investigations.
21 That's --
22 THE WITNESS: We don't want an internal. We 23 want an external. I want this whole damn thing exposed.
24 MR. MOHRWINKEL: NSA, I can assure you, 25 is not going to look at this. That's not their charter.
NEAL R. GROSS coum upomEm AND Tiweensens 1333 PHo0E ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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38 i
But our office of Investigations, if you're saying that I 2
> there is corruption by the Licensee, that's something we 3 would turn over to them and ask them to --
4 THE WITNESS: There definitely is.
5 MR. MOHRWINKEL: -- do an investigation.
6 THE WITNESS: And I --
7 MR. MOHRWINKEL: And let me clarify what John 8 said at the beginning. We are not investigators, okay? I 9 told -- Barbara knows I'm an attorney and John is a 10 Project Manager, Nuclear Engineer, graduate of the Naval 11 Academy.
12 We're not trained investigators. However, 13 The office of Investigations is. It is very clear to us, 14 one of the reasons that we picked your case, as I told 15 Barbara on the phone, we have -- I don:t know, we had 16 something like hundreds of cases initially of people who 17 had filed allegations.
le We narrowed that down to, I don't know, let's 11 say 50 cases that looked like they had some merit. We cut 20 that list to nine. That's the total number of cases we 21 are looking at in-depth. That's why we're here talking to 22 you today. ,
23 Your case was picked because we could see just
, 24 at first reading that there were a lot of problems with 25 your case with how it was handled by the NRC.
NEAL R. GROSS cous menomtat AND WNBCROEPS 1233 PHOOE STAND AVE., N.W.
term ou14em WAa' MTasd b c -- 18501 team **f ^'** _
39 1-And eno of tho thingo that's in our charter is 2-to find out what we crald -- what--we've done wrong in 3
previous cases, what we could do better, what we need to 4 do.
5 And none of this en. this team are blushing 4 6 violets, and nr.s of us a're afraid to speak what's on our 7 minds. And I -- you have no reason to believe that, but 8 I'm telling you that that's the truth. And that's the
!. 9 kind of people we are.
10 And I think that's why the Agency asked us to 11 serve in this capacity.
12 V
So, if you give us these sorts of allegations 13 as you'are today -- and John and I were talking at. lunch
.i 14 about your case in anticipation of coming out and talking 15 to you.
16 There is no question that some of the things 17 that you turned over to the Agency, going:back to the 18 80's, were not handled properly or were not handled 19 timely. Or-if --
20 THE WITNESS: Excuse me.
21 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Yes?
22 THE WITNESS: And the concern is even in '91, 23' when I went back'to the NRC people saying, "My God, it's .
r 24 happening agkin," okay, that place-should-be shut-down. I 25 mean, there's not --
NEAL R. GROSS cOum nanomWW AND TWWCNOWW 1833 ft400E WLAND AVE., N.W.
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40 1 MR. MORRWINKEL: That's not --
2 THE WITNESS: --
there's not salvation for
( 3 Millstone or Northeast Utilities, okay?
4 MR. MORRWINKEL: Yes.
5 THE WITNESS: To straighten it out, you would 6
have to -- it would take years to identify the culprits.
7 They would have to be replaced.
8 In the first place, nuclear engines are a bad 9 idea. Neelear power should not be in the hands of the 10 millions.
11 MR. MORRWINKEL: We can't -- but Joe, we can't 12 get off on that. We're not going to close down 110 13 nuclear power plants. That's a policy question right 14 there.
15 THE WITNESS: Okay, now are we going to wait 16 for another Hiroshima? Isn't it too bad that Three Mile 17 Island failed to really work?
18 Your attention should be -- do you know that 19 nuclear -- NRC should stand for? Nuclear reduction. You 20 should be more interested in re-encapsulating Chernobyl, 21 okay?
22 Let's dig up the Russian submarines. Let's 23 get nuclear under control. It is not under control.
24 Unfortunately, you have at Millstone Point a sweet deal r
25 because it's fenced off and unobservable to the public and NEAL R. GROSS court REPoRTUB MC TRWSCM808 132S MHoOE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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41 1
baccuco thoro io -- there are fortunes made daily at 2 Millstone Point in crime.
( 3 Because you have -- it goes through Lieberman, 4 you know, and Joe Biden to --
8 4
5 MR. MORRWINKEL: Which Lieberman?
!, 6 THE WITNESS: Joe Lieberman is the Connecticut 7 Senator.
8 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Is the Senator.
9 THE WITNESS: Okay? Now, he was reelected.
10 It cost him $8 million to get_back in. Six and a half of 11 it came outside of Connecticut. He's a snake.
l 12 Now, he and Biden are pals. When I told you 13 about going to Carl Zinnser with my parcel of stuff, I I'
14 said, " Carl, does nobody care?" Carl told me to go across 15 the street to -- it was Squatrito's office.
16 You have -- on the sheet of cards, you have a 17 card of an attorney who I spoke to.
18 MR. MORRWINKEL: That's what you handed to me 19 a second ago, right?
20 THE WITNESS: Now, that attorney kept the 27 21 pages for ten days, okay, and then informed me that he --
22 that office, squatrito's office, could not be of any 23 assistance to me.
24 Well, was it two years later that with -- with
(
25 Joe Lieberman's recommendation, Nicholas Squatrito --
NEAL R. GROSS CoUM REPoMERB AND TRANSCROSB 1835 MMODE ISLAND AVE N.W.
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I 42 1 MR. MORRWINKEL: That's there, isn't it?
- 2 THE WITNESS
- This is -- this is here, Barry 3 Guliano.
4 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Oh, 5 THE WITNESS: Okay? He -- he is in 6 Squatrito's office. He is the one I passed the paperwork 7 to. So, Squatrito saw the 27 pages, showed Joe Lieberman, 8 okay?
9 Joe Lieberman made Squatrito a Federal judge 10 to squash the information, as a reward for squashing the 11 information. I know this, okay?
12 And as far as another bought judge -- when I 13 got my job back in -- I think it was '91. You see, I was 14 reinstated.
15 MR. MOHRWINKEL: For three weeks?
16 THE WITNESS: For three weeks. Okay, and I 17 went back to the NRC people. Now, at the very time that I 18 went back into the NRC office, outside of the office was 19 posted a guard, okay? Not a security guard, but M 20 representative, w s eavesdropping 21 on the conversation, okay, to assure that the NRC people 22 that we're watching you and to let me know that we've got 23 you, okay? r 24 Because they, the C rtel, rules 25 Millstone Point.
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43 1 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Okcy.
.. Lb But who are these 2 people? You -- that before.
( 3 THE WITNESS: Okay, they are -- I'll show you 4 where it is. As I said, I went to work in Millstone in 5 '72. In '72, the carpenter steward, okay?
'6 And I went to work -- it was on the inlet, the water 7 inlet, of Unit II, okay? That's the first time I ever met 9
9 And as I said, he was a -- he was a union 10 steward. At that time, the union business agent --
his i
11 na e is . okay?
12 ow, the reason I'm giving you this story is 13 that and it's in the 27 pages, went to Washington, 14 put his nephew into the Carpenter's Business Agent's
{ 15 position. -
g 16 Then the nephew, years later, put n 17 a position, okay, because 1u 9 Iis related. In unions, 18 you need support. You need votes. So, you pick the 19 biggest fsmily, not mafia family. It doesn't hurt if a 20 family happens to be mafia-connected.
21 So the w$safigure-head. He 22 runs the place, and this 27 pages say nothing happens at 23 Millstone without preval.
24 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Was the steward that 25 you went to with safety concerns that told you to forget NEAL R. GROSS count neomV8 AND TIW4CROEMB 1325 MoOE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(302) 234-4433 WASHINGTON D.C. 2000H701 (302) 234 4433
44 1 cbout it?
2 THE WITNESS: No.
3 MR. MORRWINKEL: No?
4 THE WITNESS: As I said in '72, we were 5 working on the inlet. You know, hb was a little, 6
frickin' carpenter steward, a nothing, you kn , a bagman.
7 Do you know what a bagman is? Okay, a bagman.
8 Okay? What am I going to go to him for? j h v_
9 Through the years, you know, gets into 10 office, you know, is pampered. He's tutored.
11 son is an operator at Millstone Point.
12 Now what I mentioned in the 27 pages that one 13 of the problems is the nepotism and is the infiltration e
't 14 from plant site back up to labor, management and security, 15 you see, there's no such thing as security at Millstone 16 Point, okay? .
17 Now, it's changed over the years, but they're 18 thugs. Ninety percent of them are thugs and they're on 19 the take.
20 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Okay, now who are thugs?
21 THE WITNESS: Okay, security.
22 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Are you saying the actual 23 security guards or --
24 THE WITNESS: I'm saying the guards. Now,
(
25 I'll give -- I'll show you a picture, okay? Anything --
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRUSCROERS 1323 RHOOE ISWC AVE., KW.
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45 1
onything you wented in or out of Millotono Point was
- (2- available,'okay?
( 3 Now supposedly today, you have a security
- 4 system, okay? Now, who looks at the telephone man?
5 Think. Who looks at the Northeast Utilities trucks
- ,6 driving in and out?
i Okay'? And Y can promise you, I-can L 7
- shew you a barn full.of material that was removed by
- 8. Northeast Utilities trucks.
i j
s 9 MR. MORRWINKEL: Stolen material?.
i 10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 MR..MOHRWINKEL: I know that was in your
- - 12 allegation, i-l 13 THE WITNESS
- Well, I'll show you the stuff, I
14 okay? I'll give you the driver of the truck, okay? Now,
- 15 you look at the stuff and look at the driver and tell me 4 --
+
16 who's lying. ,
17 Now, I've gone to Connecticut Major Crimes.
o
- 18 They don't want to touch it. Oh, that's a Waterford R
j 19 Police situation. I went to Waterford Police, and they're i 20 a little cop shop, you know, five guys.
_ They're not going 4
21 to take on Millstone Point because they know god-damn well 22 that there's two mafia families in there.
23 There's a Westerly faction and there's a 24 Middletown faction. Can we stop that for a minute?
25 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Can we take a short break?
NEAL R. GROSS coum Rapomans AND MNBCftSERS 1833 fNoOE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(slE) 334443B WASHINGTON, D.C. 3DDOMMM CWE)3364433
46 5
(Wharcupon, tha proceedings went off the 2
j record at 3:17 p.m. and resumed at 3:30 p.m.)
s 3 MR. HOMRWINKEL: Okay, we're back on 'he 4 record at about 3:30. We took about a ten minute break.
5 I just want to clarify one of the things earlier that we 6 just talked about off the record. I want to have it on 7 the record. 1 8
Barbara, who is Joe's representative, put 9
forth the letter dated October 30, '91 from the NRC, and I 10 just wanted to clarify for them, for Barbara and Joe, that 11 we recognized in our initial review of Joe's file that the 12 NRC was willfully delinquent in that case.
13 And a note that we've written to ourselves 14 about that October 30th letter, which we have in our file 15 at Headquarters, says that that letter advised Mr. Carter 16 of his DOL appeal rights, which ran for 30 days, four 17 years after the occurrence.
18 So, there was absolutely no point in us doing 19 that, and it was just absurd to give somebody a 30-day 20 notification four years late.
21 So, we recognize that there have been 22 shortcomings in the dealings that we've had, that the ,
23 Agency with Mr. Carter. And that's one of the things
, 24 we're here~to address.
25 So, I would like to try to get back on track NEAL R. GROSS coum MeroRrERs AND TRANSCMBERS 1323 RHOOE ISt.ANO AVE., N.W.
(202) 234 4433 WASHINGTON O.C. 20006 3701 (202) 234 4433
. 47 1 with these -- these six questions. I think we've covered i 2- the first three.
3 Because as we said at the beginning, Joe, we 4 want to talk about the process. Other charges of wrong-5 doing, criminal activity, drug use, we plan to turn over
'6 to our Office of Investigations.
7 THE WITNESS: So, the investigators will find 8 out how they happened to put zip code on a 9 letter?
10 MR. MOHRWINKEL: That is correct.
11 THE WITNESS: Okay.
12 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Yes.
13 THE WITNESS: Okay.
i 14 MR. MOHRWINKEL: We cannot do that because as 15 John Hannan said at the beginning, we are not 16 investigators'.
I 17 THE WITNESS: I mean, it's proof to me that 18 they had the information.
19 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Well, that's one of the 20 things -- again that's relatively a small charge in some 21 of the other charges you've made here today. But that's 22 one of the things that our office will --
23 THE WITNESS: Well, a bullet makes a small
, 24 hole in your heart.
25 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Good point. Yes, I guess NEAL R. GROSS court REPORTERS AND WNSCNSEMB 1323 RHoOE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
tSom **' " "
WASHINGTON. O.C. M*701 M 2*' " __
48 1 that'0 truo. Okay -- yes, go ahead.
2 MR. HANNAN: Before you do, there's one 3 question I wanted to clarify because I haven't read the 4 entire case that you've read here, Carl. Did you actually 5 ever file this 27-page document with the press?
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, with the Hartford courant.
7 I told you there was a reporter that died after -- after I 8 gave it -- submitted it.
9 MR. HANNAN: Did it ever -- did it ever get 10 into --
11 THE WITNESS: No, it didn't.
12 MR. HANNAN: --
the public domain?
13 THE WITNESS: Then I resubmitted two years 14 later to Sue Kinsman --
15 MR. HANNAN: Okay.
16 THE WITNESS: -- who covered it up.
17 MR. HANNAN: I see.
18 THE WITNESS: That's why I mentioned that if 19 you go back -- if you look at the records of the Hartford 20 Courant, every article about Northeast Utilities was 21 written by Sue, who was a Northeast Utilities employee.
22 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Okay. That is strange, I 23 will grant you that.
7 24 THE WITNESS: No, no, it's not strange. It's 25 business and politics, okay? When I tell you of the NEAL R. GROSS Count Repomme AND TweCNess 1323 RHoOE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
_________________ ____- . ______8%_______ _ ____ _ _N @.C. _E'~DGOD M __
49 1
fortunes made and the people that are on the take and 2
where the money went and who got it, okay, it's just good 3 business.
4 First off, when I said something abut the 5
inception of the company, and if you just take Millstone 6
Point where the original estimates for construction --
7 take Unit III. It was supposed to be built for a half a 8 million. It cost $3.5 billion -- or half a billion, it 9 cost $3.5 billion.
10 Gentlemen, it's simple. Northeast Utilities, 11 as the holding company, gets a two percent override. So, 12 if they can purchase an article for a dollar, and make a 13 dime or ten dollars and make a dollar, they choose to 7
14 purchase the ten dollar one dollar item and make the whole 15 dollar and not the dime. It's simple.
16 MR. MOHRWINKEL: All right, let's try and get 17 back on these questions, Joe, because we told '
s 18 this would take about two hours and we're kind of running 19 out of time.
20 Were there any specific circumstances which 21 you believe contributed to the problems addressed above?
22 I think you've t:estified --
23 i THE WITNESS: And that's when I testified to rut 7
24 the ll -
Cartel, Lieberman in politics. I mean, look at 25 Lieberman and Lieberman. I mean, you've got Lieberman the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPoMRS AND MMBCRBERB 1323 RHoOE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
tm m t^^ee wLtutwnTon ne m em m v 'a n
50 1 S^.nator. I know thtt Lieberman, the enforcer, is a 2 cousin.
(
3 MR. MOHRWINKEL: I'm going to have to ask him, 4 but I don't think so.
5 THE WITNESS: Well --
6 MR. MOHRWINKEL: I know our Jim Lieberman.
7 Let me tell you, our Jim Lieberman takes enforcement very 8 seriously.
9 THE WITNESS: I can't believe that with what 10 I've seen. I can't believe that anybody at NRC takes 11 anything seriously from what I've seen, okay?
12 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Well, you raise an
, 13 interesting question that I will inquire about when I get I
14 back.
15 THE WITNESS: The whole thing is --
16 MR. MOHRWINKEL: I will call Jim Lieberman.
17 And I just do not believe Jim Lieberman is related to 18 Senator Lieberman.
19 But at NRC, we always say "Our Lieberman or 20 Senator Lieberman," and no one has ever said they're 21 family members. So, I don't know, Joe. I will look into 22 that, but I.will be surprised if he's related.
23' THE WITNESS: You're going to be surprised
, 24 about a lot of things.
t 25 MR MOHRWINKEL: Yes. What changes do you NEAL R. GROSS CouM REPoMERS AND TWGCROSS isas mHoof ISLAND AVE., N.W. i y ase.44ss WASMNGToN. D.C. 300EWC1 (202) 2$4 4433 _ __o
V 51 1
think would mnko these two programs work better, the 2
Employee Concerns and the Allegation Management Program?
3 THE WITNESS: Succinct exposure and 4 cleansing.
5 MR. MORRWINKEL: That is succinct. What was 6 your last day there, '92, right? Was that when your last 7 -- approximate work time?
8 THE WITNESS: I, without the records, without 9 all -- is there anything on human rights? Okay, you see -
10 -
11 MR. MOHRWINKEL: I think -- I think my notes 12 say you last worked there in something like '92.
13 THE WITNESS: Okay, it was '92, '93 --
6 14 MS. MANGIN: Maybe.
15 THE WITNESS: -- because in '87, when no 16 attorney would take my case -- it will be in here.
17 MS. MANGIN: It will?
18 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Is this you?
19 THE WITNESS: When I went back to work, '92, 20 September of '92.
21 MR. MORRWINKEL: Ninety-two, yes, I think it 22 was '92.
23 THE WITNESS: Okay. Now, that's because in 24 '87, because no attorney in the state would take my case, 25 even though I would walk into a Jewish law firm and they NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPo9TERS AND TRWSCRSER8 1323 RHcoE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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52 1
toll ma my case backwards, my case is a classic case in 2 Connecticut court system. Jews know my case inside and 3 out, okay, because nobody will touch it, okay? i 4
They know it verbatim and won't touch it. I 5 Now, there's a law firm.
It's at 90 -- 39 Lafayette 6 Street in Hartford.
7 That firm, and I can't tell you the three ;
8 principals in the office off the top of my head --
l 9 MR. MOHRWINKEL: These are people you l
10 consulted with though?
11 THE WITNESS: I went to these people in July 12 or August of '87, and said, " Hey, this is what I've got."
13 They told me at that time it would take a half a million 14 dollars to litigate my case, okay?
15 And then they looked at it,and they got a 16 stack of radiation work reports from Millstone Point, 17 okay, which had been sanitized by the way by Northeast 18 Utilities. And they said, "We can't help you."
19 I, on my own, went to the Commission on Human 20 Rights in December of '87, got the case posted. Now, the 21 Commission on Human Rights in Connecticut has sat on this 22 case since '87.
23 There's another nasty picture that ties into 24 Kinsman and UConn Law School, okay, and Northeast 25 Utilities.
NEAL R. GROSS count mapomme Ano TMNSCMSUW 1323 RHoOE IC.AND AVE., N.W.
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53 1 MR. MOHRWINKEL: All right, let me just ask 2
you, what was your complaint with the Human Rights 3
Commission, that you were improperly fired for raising 4 health and safety concerns?
5 THE WITNECS: On July seventh, I was issued a 6
lay-off slip that said I was -- I was unable to meet plant
, 7 health physics requirements.
8 N MR. MOHRWINKEL: That's when you 9 THE WITNESS: That's right.
10 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Right.
4 11 THE WITNESS: Now, I went to -- I reviewed 12 Millstone's administrative policy manuals, which at that
, 13 time was in three volumes, okay? Okay?
14 Now, and I can't tell you who, and the 27 15 pages does -- there were two criteria for restricting 16 people from employment. Okay, one was a #
17 picture.
18 MR. MOHRWINKEL: I'm sorry, was,a what?
19 THE WITNESS: A icture.
20 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Yes.
21 THE WITNESS: Now, I knew as much about what 22 that was as you do right now.
23 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Yes.
24 THE WITNESS: What the hell is that? Is that sd b 25 one? On the wall, is that a picture? Or a >
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54 1 pregnancy, okay?
(,
2 Now, I didn't have a picture. I 3 had Now, if I'm going to die, I'm 4 going to ride that pony down, okay? I'm not quitting.
5 I'm dying ho better to go again and take the insulation off the reactor head, which is 6
7 where I got i the first place. .
8 Northeast Utilities is scared shitless of the 9 Chernobyl syndrome. That's why my RWPs don't include the 10 time --
11 MR. MOHRWINKEL: "RWPs" being?
12 THE WITNESS: Radiation work permits do not 13 include the time in '86 when I did touch the beast. You i
14 see, I have touched the beast.
15 MR. MOHRWINKEL: What --
but I'm still 16 confused as to what complaint you took to the Human Rights 17 Commission.
18 THE WITNESS: Okay, I said that they -- they 19 had no rights to lay me off, okay? I was one of their 20 best employees, okay? I designed work down there, okay?
l 21 They buried me knowing -- they also had a guy i
22 named Ray I,ewis, okay, and that's mentioned in the 23 newspaper, the Nagashima thing.
24 When I said that Sue Kinsman reported all
- (
25 Northeast Utilities stories, they got a person to do one
! NEAL R. GROSS CoVRT REPORTERS AND T7%NSCRM
! 1323 rho 0E ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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55 1
crticle on me and would not do a follow-up when I got the 2 job back in '92, okay?
3 Now, I went back in '92 because they couldn't 4 keep me out. It was in CHRO hearings, in the hearing 5 office that he wants his job back. I was immediately 6 brought back on-site, but it took them three weeks to 7 process me back in.
8 And within -- within one week of being 9 processed in, getting back to the money hole. They had a 10 where say that I waved my cock in her face, and then they 11 had eight - -
there's eight pieces of court testimony, 12 okay, witnessing the cock in the face incident.
13 But -- but every one of those reports is 95 14 percent verbatim and stated that they were made -- the 15 incident occurred at a time that I was not even on-site.
16 Because coincidentally, while I was working 12 l
17 hours at night at Millstone, I was doing eight hours a day 18 at Northeast Utilities Headquarters doing a deposition 19 with -- with Ed Richters, who is Northeast Utilities Chief 20 Counsel, okay?
21 MR. MOHRWINKEL: What was he doing -- for-the 22 validity of.this accusation about you exposing yourself or 23 --
f 24 THE WITNESS: No, but because when my case was 25 finally heard -- this was filed in '87, had been screwed NEAL R. GROSS coum nyomus AND TMeCNSERS 1323 RHOOE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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56 1
cround cnd nocrly misplaced by the Commission on Human 2 Rights. I got to some hearings in '92 --
3 MR. MORRWINKEL: DOL hearings, right? Wasn't 4 that a DOL hearing on your firing?
5 THE WITNESS: No, no. No.
- 6 MR. MORRWINKEL: No, okay.
7 THE WITNESS: No, that was the Commission on B Human Rights, CHRO hearings. The Hearing Officer said, 9 "He wants his job back." Now, on the slip there's no 10 justification for lay-off, okay? They fired me July l
11 seventh of 1987 with no substantial justification.
12 MR. MORRWINKEL: When did this exposure case
. 13 take place allegedly?
14 THE WITNESS: After I got my job back.
15 MR. MORRWINKEL: Ninety?
16 THE WITNESS: Two. I wasn't active for a 17 week. It was six days before they got this where and you 18 -- she was a cleaning lady, to say that I waved my cock in 19 her face.
20 And they got seven or eight individuals who 21 are on the take, and need to be to protect their continued 22 employment at the money pot, they had to say that yes, we 23 all saw Joe wave his cock in her face. Now, this is the 24 kind of thing that goes on.
i 25 MR. MOHRWINKEL: What happened -- with that NEAL R. GROSS count mEponrEne AND UW6C49EM8 1323 RHoOE tG.AND AVE., N.W.
(305 234 6
- WASHINGTON. O.C. 30006 s701 (202) 234 4433 _ _
57 1
case though, you were terminated for that, as I recall.
2 THE WITNESS: Okay, now -- now --
k 3
MR. MORRWINKEL: Then --
4 THE WITNESS: Okay. '
5 MR. MOHRWINKEL: -- then what happened?
'6 THE WITNESS: Then -- then this comes down --
7 it gets you back to the C rtel, okay? I filed a 8
union grievance because I never did such a thing. I would 9
not do such a thing to a human being, okay? It's not in 10 me.
11 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Did they have witnesses? Did 12 they claim -- you said they had these eight witnesses or
- 13 so that you said were --
i1 14 THE WITNESS: Now, these eight witnesses, I 15 want to show you their testimony. In court, I proved that I 16 these eight witnesses simply signed something, and they 17 all signed it over -- I think it was a 13-week time 18 period.
19 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Actually, I think you and I 20 talked about that on the telephone when you said all the 21 statements were virtually identical, right?
22 MS. MANGIN: Exactly, they --
23 THE WITNESS: How, on -- on such and such a 24 date in Block 38-C, you know, going up a ladder, saw Joe 25 Carter wave his cock in the face of whoever the where is, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCMSEM 1323 rho 0E ISLAND AVE., N.W.
te m **' " ** WASHINGTON. O C. '2nnna-Me1 te m 2-t 'i'_* _ ____
58 1 okOy?
2 Now, I proved in court that those people --
3 first off, I proved that I wasn't there. I proved that l
4 all those statements were written by one individual, who 5 was the contractor, okay? Now, this is a --
6 ' MR. MOHRWINKEL: Who was the contractor? What 7 was his name?
8 THE WITNESS: At that time, it was Flora.
9 MR. MORRWINKEL: Okay, you mean the umbrella 10 contractor?
11 THE WITNESS: No, he was the -- he was the 12 maintenance contractor that replac:d the --
13 MR. MOHRWINKEL: No, I understand. When you I.
14 said " contractor," I wanted to make sure that you meant 15 like a --
16 THE WITNESS: Not Northeast Utilities, it was 17 a subcontractor.
18 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Right, I meant --
I meant the 19 company as opposed to an individual, right. And Flora was 20 the company, right?
21 THE WITNESS: Okay. Now however, when I filed 22 the union grievance because hey guys, they're saying I did 23 something when -- time records, I produced the time 24 records to prove that I left at 8:30 -- 10:30 that night.
25 They say the thing happened at 11:30, okay?
NEAL R. GROSS count asporatas AnD ramsensen 1323 rho 0E ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202} 2SA4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 2000tL3701 (202) 234-4433
I 59 1
Now fine, if it happened at 11:30, it wasn't j '
2 me that was there.
\.
3 MR. MORRWINKEL: So what was the outcome of 4 that?
5 THE WITNESS: The outcome of this was that 6 this guy, . now the guy that was the bagman went 7 up to be Business Agent, who since lost the charter. But 8 because he paid a million dollars in bribes to Central 9
Connecticut Carpenters is still the figurehead management 10 at Millstone Point.
C ., 's 11 never lost his job, he just lost his 12 title. Now, at the '92 deal where I said, 13 I I v; first off, sexual harassment, any kind of 14 harassment is a series of events, okay?
15 You can't have a one-shot harassment. It 16 doesn't work, even sexual. It has to be a series of 17 events.
C4b 18 Now, went to federal court because --
i
~
19 because the union -- I went through the union grievance 20 forum and they fucked it up, pardon my French. They did 21 things incorrectly. g (, /,
22 I wish I had and last name.
23 MR. MORRWINKEL: Who are - ,are they stewards?
7 24 THE WITNESS: No, t to Washington 1 - ., e J 25 and brought his nephew, and then put into office, NEAL R. GROSS coVM REPoMUM AND TMNSCRB&W
( 1323 rho 0E ISLAND AVE., N.W.
1 okay? and o ay?
l 2 When I went in '72, ImI a
- 3 ( at Local 30, which was New London. There is no 4 longer any Local 30 New London because as 5 caught in a dope deal. And Washington came to New London, l 6 took the charter off the wall.
7 aid a million dollars, for which 8 l ;got a Mercedes, okay? The -- the union funds --
9 now, this is not your bailiwick. This is for j 10 investigation. This is for major crimes. It's for FBI.
i 11 It's - . racketeering in this country, okay?
12 There were two Cadillacs -- three Cadillacs f
13 and two Mercedes purchased out of the million dollars that 4 -
14 hqL< paid to keep his job, okay?
15 Now, the -
and when I say 16 I mean 'a favorite boy at Millstone because 17 he has his marijuana farm in Arizona. His father-in-law 18 is a Construction Manager at Connecticut Yankee. And 19 the works 20 in the office on Berlin Turnpike.
21 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Let me -- let me try and 22 bring this back to where we are, who has the 23 marijuana farm, is what -- what's his job at Millstone?
24 THE WITNESS: We worked -- ostensibly, he was 25 a oreman.
NEAL R. GROSS coum REPoetas AND WNSCMBERS 1323 RHoOE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
_M M M_
61 1
MR. MORRWINKEL: Working for a contractor?
2 THE WITNESS: Working for a contractor. And 3 that's where the money is.
4 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Okay. Again, as you just 5 correctly said a second ago, this is outside our 6 bailiwick, and I wanted to get enough of this on the 7 transcript so we can turn this over to our Office of 8 Investigations for them to pursue further.
9 But I do want to get back to these because as 10 I said, we promise wNwouldtalkabouttwo 11 hours.
12 THE WITNESS: Right. Well, and five, you
, 13 know, it's subtitles of the exposure and cleansing. When k
14 you look at disorganized crime -- and I'll show you where 15 the supplier of the concrete has a restaurant in Rhode 16 Island, among other things.
17 I can show you where this -- you know, there's le restaurants on Long Island. There's an ungodly amount of 19 stuff all purchased from the dope that's peddled at 20 Millstone Point.
21 Now, it's peddled by security, by management 22 and by labor. They're all fingers on a hand. You know, 23 it's -- and the reason it's so controlled is because that 24 family in that community has worked at that place since 25 the 60's and there's tons of money to be made. They got NEAL R. GROSS coum mEpomMS AND TRU4CMSERS 1323 PHoOE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 2364433 WASHINGTON. O.C. 20026 5701 (2021f M _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ .
62 1 rich.
2 You know, they weren't about to shoot the 3 goose, okay? ilow --
4 MR MOHRWINKEL:
Let's move on to number six '
5 because I think we've got enough on the transcript for us 6
to turn over to our office of Investigations for them to 7
pursue some of this and possibly talk to you directly.
8 THE WITNESS: All right, now -- nearly, okay 9 because six is simple. Show me proof of cleansing. I 10 mean, show me you've done something. Go after some of l 11 this stuff.
12 MR. MOHRWINKEL: But I said before though, 13 it's difficult probably for you here to 14 keep up with some of the events. But they recently have l 15 had a change --
16 THE WITNESS: They've got dog shit?
17 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Have they?
18 THE WITNESS: And I'm telling you it's more 19 lip service, because I'm telling you when Joe Biden mouths 20 off about oh yes, we ought to do something about nuclear.
21 Bullshit. Joe Biden made Squatrito a judge because Joe 22 Lieberman did a favor for Joe Biden, right?
9b 23 w
I mean, there's a,few names -- the
- p #* ""4 4 #
(-
24 two -- the two electricians: Mq4J Ja$1d an -- is L . _ -
25 it s
NEAL R. GROSS COUM REPoMDB AND MVSCNSUB 1323 MHOOE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
_m.. m . o. -ru, n, -
- --em - - - - -
1 63 1 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Barbara says it is.
l 2 THE WITNESS: Okay. Now, e 3
between a million and two representing -- represented by 4 John Williams. Now, John Williams, the attorney, his 5 claim to fame was that he supported the Black Panthers in 6 tne 70's.
7 Now, I'll show you where that John Williams is 8 dirty with Northeast Utilities. I'll show where that in 9 1987 through an attorney named Jeff Druniani, recommended 10 by a law professor named Tim Everett, I submitted a case 11 to John Williams, and he sat on it and sold me down the 12 river, which is why I'm being harassed by the Connecticut 13 State Police today.
14 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Wait, you lost me here.
15 You're saying that --
16 THE WITNESS: Okay, I'm telling you --
17 MR. MOERWINKEL: Right, but you're saying --
18 THE WITNESS: -- that where you read that 19 people are doing something, you read another article about 20 Williams, where he put the boots to his dead partner.
21 Now, there's -- there's a squabble -- read the paper --
22 that's why I asked for this thing to be done at my house 23 so yu can verify what I'm gong to say, was that there's a 24 Connecticut legal pamphlet that comes out.
25 I had access to this in Osborne. I'm doing a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCM8EM 1323 RHoOE ISt.AND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234 4433 WASHINGTON. D.C. 20006 3701 ES 2%4433
64 1
couplo moro cases, where the title on the legal report is 2
" Clash of Titans," Williams and the wife -- the husband of 3 the dead partner, Sue Wise. Now, I understand why Wise 4
shot me down the river, okay, because at that time my 5 complaint was b police. Q (,
6 Because you see, the week that I was 7 .
8 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Of '95?
9 THE WITNESS: Of '87.
10 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Oh, '87.
4 11 THE WITNESS: When I was told by my physician 12 that I could be dead in six days, you know, I wanted to 13 die on the job.
I really did. I don't want to die at
(
14 home, you know, worrying about dying. I want to go in 15 there and fight the beast.
16 The contractor, who was Flagg at the time, 17 told me that they would take me back if Northeast 18 Utilities would give me my dosimetry. You know what 19 dosimetry is.
20 Northeast Utilities said they would give me 21 back my dosimetry if Flagg would hire me. Catch 22, how 22 do you make that happen?
23 I was making some phone calls, okay? It's 24 difficult, you may or may not know, for an outsider to get 25 through to a contractor at Millotone Point. There was a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRBERS 1323 RHoOE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
__ M QASENGToN. O C- 200064701 (2C2 F M"
65 1 throG-lGv01 process, f
i 2 It took 20 minutes, you know? And I'm on the
(' 1 3 phone. I told the operator -- and this is just within a 4
week after putting this package behind the control panel. )
5 And I said to the operator, I said, "You know, I could 6
blow the place up in less time than it's taking you to 1
7 place this call."
B Now, two hours later, my lawn was covered with 9 state police --
10 MR. MOHRWINKEL: She took this as a threat?
11 THE WITNESS: -- looking for 12 Now, a mentioned in the 27 pages. Read 13 that, as a personal favor to me. Read the --
14 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Well, we -- I regret not --
15 THE WITNESS: At some point in time --
16 MR. MOHRWINKEL: As you can see just from some 17 of my questions, I'm very familiar with your case. I 18 obviously don't have it memor:, zed like you do, but in 19 terms of --
3 20 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, after ten years 21 and not referring to -- I haven't had my glasses for a 22 month.
- 23 MR. MORRWINKEL
- I heard you saying that.
24 THE WITNESS: And I have -- you know, I'm 25 appealing a case in State Court on the fourth and don't NEAL R. GROSS coum ApoMRS ANDTMNBCR855 1323 RHoOE ISLAND AVE, N.W.
_ __ _ _ __ _ _____ _______ ___ . _.___ E ED3CD W M B 8. O G ESCE9 _ _ _ _
L 66 1 havo my records. And so, I've got more than this stuff
-2 going on.
3 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Let me go back and answer
-4 your. question. :
We are going to -- I will read your case 5 in great depth again. As I think you-can see, I'm 6 reasonably familiar with your case now.
7 And I know some of the other things that have 8 happened to you. I know how the NRC has screwed up the.
9 case, and I gave you the example of --
10 THE WITNESS: The NRC had not choice --
11 MR. MOHRWINKEL: That's why I wanted to find 12 the notes here.
13 THE WITNESS: -- because as I said up here --
-t 14 MR MOHRWINKEL: The NRC does have a choice.
15 THE WITNESS: Okay, they had no heart and no 16 teeth and no clout, and they were threatened. So, they 17 shut up and did what-they were supposed to.
18 My concern is the fact that when I went_to the 19 FBI and the FBI went-to King of Prussia, it was stepped 20 on. It was quieted. It was hushed. It was put away.
21 Somebody was bought.
22- There was more money to be made by remaining 23 status quo than there was to straighten out Millstone 24- Point at that time, okay?
25 It's a very deep, very convoluted situation, NEAL R. GROSS CoVM REPoMERS AND WWGCNGOS 1323 44 ODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(EIS B44488 WASHINGTON, D.C. 3100H701 @ 23 M 438
67 1 okay?
And if I die because of this, so be it, you know?
2 It's not hoW long you're here. It's what you do that 3 Counts.
4 MR. MOHRWINKEL: But again, to answer your 5
question about the 27 pages, we're going to -- I am going to and John is going to review every one of these nine 7 folks' cases in depth. And we're going to do, as I said 8
to you when we were off the record, the short solution, 9 which is your individual case, what went right, what went 10 wrong.
11 In your case, I think it's pretty clear more 12 went wrong than went right. That's not the case in 13 everybody's case.
t 14 And then again, as I said, we have an awful 15 lot of stuff on these tapes that you've said today. We're 16 going to turn that over to our office of Investigations.
17 As John said at the beginning, we are not 18 investigators. That's not our job. But we will turn 19 these transcripts over to the investigators and say that 20 you are very willing to talk to them and that you have 21 serious concerns about what's going on there.
22 The transcript will be made available to the 23 professional investigators, and they will do what needs to 24 be done to follow up on this. That's all I can tell you, 25 Joe. I mean --
NEAL R. GROSS coum menomtas mo nwecamens 1323 RHoOE ISLAND AVE., RW.
rm *' * * =e wt u m m u nt- enewtme - *' 4 ' u
68 1 THE WITNESS: That's fine.
2 MR. MOHRWINKEL: I
-- that's where we are today. l 3 THE WITNESS: I Yes, yes, right. I had the --
4 okay, since the inception, since July of '87, when I {
5 talked to Costagno and I talked -- there's a thing from 6
the insurance company, and when I talked to the courant, 7 skay, Northe at Utilities' greatest desire was that 1 CJ 8 ould solve their problam.
.s 9
And there's -- there's documentation stashed 10 in three or four places. I mean, I know how to do 11 undercover work, okay? Now, what Barbara has isn't 12 everything. And death won't quiet my story.
13 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Well, and hopefully, death
(' 14 won't come -- won't come for you in near future. And we 15 t.4nt to turn this over to the Office of Investigations and 16 we want to have them get in touch with you. And we'll do 17 whatever it is they think is appropriate to pursue an 18 investigation.
19 And as I said, and I'll say it again, we said 20 -- John and I both said it a couple of times. We fully 21 recognize, having not been involved in this case in the 22 time frame you're talking about, that your case certainly 23 could have been handled better. And that's why we picked 24 your case.
25 We -- to go back to what you said before, we l
NEAL R. GROSS coum marcemum AND TMNSCMOUR 1833 44eOE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(300 334-4430 WASHINGTON. D.C. 3300W91 (202) W
1 69 1
fool that w3 hovo the guts to go on the record and say,
, 2 "Here's what the NRC did wrong." And that's what we're 3 going to do.
The report is due to be -- our report is due 4
to be issued on the first of August.
5 We hope to meet that deadline. We will 6
certainly be in touch with you before that for you to 7 review this transcript so you will be able to see --
B repeat -- review, not repeat, but review what it is you've 9
said to us, make any corrections you deem necessary.
10 And that will be basically there record we're il gong to make available to the Office of Investigations.
12 You put an awful lot of allegations about wrongdoing about 13 Millstone on the record. They'll have a chance to look at 1
14 that.
15 They will do what they think is appropriate, 16 which may well include talking to you or Barbara, or 17 whatever they deem necessary.
18 THE WITNESS: And ask we sit here, as I said, 19 and -- looking for a bomb to put in 20 the inlet of Unit II.
21 MR. MOERWINKEL: A bomb?
22 THE WITNESS: A bomb.
23 MR. MORRWINKEL: He's looking for a bomb.
24 THE WITNESS: He wants -- he wants some !
(
25 plutonium. I l
NEAL R. GROSS count naponrcas AND nwecesse 1323 RH00E ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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70 1 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Why?
2 THE WITNESS: Because he says he's a 3 disgruntled employee. You know, contractors --
4 MR. MOHRWINKEL: He used to work at Millstone?
5 THE WITNT,SS: As a consultant to Bechtel and
'6 Stone & Webster. He's named a couple of other.
7 knows that plant --
8 MR. MOHRWINKEL: What's he --
J 9 THE WITNESS: -- like I know that plant.
10 MR. MORRWINKEL: What's he in prison for?
11 THE WITNESS: Drunken driving, okay? Now, 1 12 he's a weird care. Now, my concern -- and in '87, my - -
. 13 you see, this is -- when you refer to the courant reports, k
14 I get -- I get trickles, y 15 said there are no angels.
16 I'm not angel. I know where the dirt is. If I -- if I L
17 placed a bomb, simulated bomb behind the control panels --
18 and the only reason it wasn't a bomb was becauce I didn't 19 want it to be, I knew at that time how simple it was.
20 If you've got employees who are drunk driving 21 their boats to work at Millstone Point, okay, then it's 22 open for terrorism. You've got lobster boats at the 23 intake, okay?
24 Now, thic may sound far-fetched to you guys.
25 But who says that a couple of divers can't carry a device NEAL R. GROSS coum nepoMUW AND MWSCMBERS 1323 PD'oOE ISLAND AVE., RW, M _ m ._ m -_-
I 71 1 into the plant. Now, I'm not concerned about -- about 2 what Northeast Utilities loses with the place blows.
I'm 3 concerned about hotin'87, I wasn't.
4 I But I was concerned about my part of America and the fall. l 5 out.
- 6 Now today, as far as Chernobyl, recorded l 7 deaths from Chernobyl is 37, right? As I told you, in 8 December, I took the insulation off a reactor head, and I 9
don't remember if it was Unit I or Unit II. And six 10 months later, I'm diagnosed with 11 '
l 12 The helicopter pilot that dropped the first 13 bucket of sand on Chernobyl died of l
14 Now, my doctor, cannot tell you 15 that I got the disease at that point, okay?
16 I can tell you that my electrical resistance 17 is unique. Yours is 360 ohms. Mine is 278. I am more 18 susceptible to radiation than you are.
19 .That's why a coworker of mine did not get
- c,4 20 But there is -- was another employee that died
- o,4 21 of Ray Lewis died the day I went 22 iokay?
23 MR. MOHRWINKEL:
You did -- you had,r-a k
24 I ,
r 25 THE WITNESS: I had 5 ,O p
/
NEAL R. GROSS coum peomve ANoinnsocessem ists PHOOE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
'*
- 29 4 433 WASHINGTON. D.C. 3DOOWD1 , (~03 N _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
72 1 MS. MANGIN: That's why I said they can count 2 on me.
3 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Yes, that's right. I forgot 4 the story, but yes, that's right.
5 '
THE WITNESS: But in '91, the disease
'6 reappeared, okay? So, I'm back to that three to ten 7 scenario.
8 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Three to ten years?
9 THE WITNESS: That's their off the wall --
10 they don't count on us.
11 MR. MOHRWINKEL: I don't know, Joe, you look 12 pretty tough.
13 i
THE WITNESS: So the answer to six is proof of 14 cleansing. And if you let Millstone back on-line before 15 this is exposed, then you're turning the baby loose with 16 the bomb again.
17 MR. MORRWINKEL: Well, Joe, I'm going to have 18 to end this, but I do thank you. And we are going to do 19 as I said several times, and yeu understand what we're 20 going to do.
21 The due date for our report is August first, 22 but that's us. That's our part of it. The office of 23 Investigations part will be separate in a very near time 24 frame.
i 25 And I have to be honest with you. It's NEAL R. GROSS coum meromERS AND TMNSCNSGW 1823 PHoOE 18 LAND AVE., N.W.
femm **' " ** WASHINGTON, D.C. -MD1 (302) 2 "?? _
73 1
probably going to ba o couplo of weeks, but we will refer
. 2 this over to the Office of Investigations.
3 To Barbara, we will be in touch with you -- by 4
setting in touch, I assume you want to -- you said at ti e 5
beginning, you said you wanted to review your transcript. '
6 THE WITNESS: Sure, sure, 7 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Yes. We'll have to make 8 those arrangements again You are, of 9 course, welcome, Barbara, to sit in on that. It's not 10 going to be like this at all. There will be no 11 transcriber.
12 It will be, in all likelihood, myself and our 13 -- our --
(
14 MR. HANNAN: Transcript.
15 MR. MOHRWINKEL: -- transcript recorder, or 16 transcript custodian, rather.
17 THE WITNESS: You know, it's too bad it 18 couldn't be three weeks and a couple of days
,, e -
20 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Well, it might be. It might 21 be. We just have to see how it goes.
22 THE WITNESS: The i when I'm 23 supposed to 9b 4
24 MR. HANNAN: Joe, let me give you this. This 25 is an example of an amendment sheet that carl was talking NEAL R. GROSS COUM REPoMUW AND VWGC4095 1823 fHOof 68tAND AVE., N.W.
(304 3 M 44aB WASHINGTON, D.C. 30008 8701 (302) 2344483
74 1 tbout th3t yu would ba --
2 THE WITNESS: I've been through correcting 3 transcripts.
4 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Okay, so you know what's 5 going on with that.
Do you want to give him the other
- 6 sheet with the -- '
7 i
MR. HANNAN: I don't think that will be i 8 necessary.
9 i MR. MOHRWINKEL: Okay, we'll give that to him 10 when the time comes. That's fine.
11 THE WITNESS: I will tell you, I have a five-12 , year employee history. I have duplicate records, or I 13 have two opposing sets of books for the contractor at
(
14 Millstone Point.
15 Now, this again is out of your bailiwick, but 16 I will -- that's where I told you I'll make my fortune, 17 okay? I'll show you who was getting paid through the 18 company, okay? And that's just one small segment of it.
19 MR. MOHRWINKEL: This is stuff that I think 20 you should talk to our investigators about when they get 21 in touch with you.
22 We are going to refer this to them in 23 relatively short order, and they will do with it what they 24 do as professional investigators. I will speak to them 25 personally and tell them about our conversations, refer NEAL R. GROSS coum mepomsms ne Twecmose 1323 mH00E ISLAND AVE., N.W.
M 2344433 WASWNQToN. D.C. 20008 4701 MM
75 1
them to this transcript, and tell them I think they ought I
2 to --
3 THE WITNESS: Do you believe you met the 4 mother-load?
5 MR. MOHRWINKEL: You know, as a non-6 investigator --
7 THE WITNESS: No, no, no. Now, gut-level, 8 mano-a-mano, me to you because I can do that?
9 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Yes.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes?
11 MR. MOHRWINKEL: To be honest with you, I'm 12 not sure. You've hit us with an awful lot of information, 13 and you're very sincere about that. I have no doubt about
('
14 that.
15 I guess my -- my only hesitation is that --
16 that - -
17 THE WITNESS: Is a L -
18 MR. MORRWINKEL: -- from reviewing your file, 19 I know that --
20 THE WITNESS: Well, that too -- that too --
21 MR. MOHRWINKELt -- review some of this stuff, 22 right. .
23 THE WITNESS: There has been a terrible 24 effort, or a huge effort, to discredit my integrity, you 25 know? If I could be proven or not, okay, then whatever I NEAL R. GROSS coum MDOMEMS #C TMNSCM8EMB 1823 MHo0E ISLAND AVE., N.W.
m M2 Amea W A a -* 373 g 2 ___legg m gaJ mate _]
76 1
ocid would bo unboliovoblo, you know, if -- now, you know.
2 this is not Gulag Archipelago, okay? I am not 3 solzhenitsyn. You can't bury me for 27 years.
4 But the State of Connecticut has put me 5
through some shit, and they have attempted to prove --
- 6 I've been told by Gerald Mulaney that I can't process 7
information after which I started running faxes through 8 his machine that nobody else knew about, okay? !
9 I'm listed here as a -
ow, J
10 I am hyper-active, okay? I am not normal, okay? I am 11 very unusual. But I'm real.
12 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Well, I guess that's what you 13 made reference to a second ago when you said '
14 I don't know what they're saying about you. That's not 15 what we're for. Okay, and what goes on between you and 16 the state --
17 THE WITNESS: But -- but when you go back to
& 9, 1
18 the records and you say well, he's been
- l 6 -
I 19 he's been --
20 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Joe, if we felt that, we wouldn't be here.
4 21 22 MS. MANGIN: Right.
23 MR. MOHRWINKEL: You know, I told Barbara on 24 the phone -- we've been talking for a long time. I've 25 known for months that you've The NEAL R. GROSS CoVM REPoMUS AND TMNSCftSDW 1823 MHo0E ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(30 4 394 4488 WASHINGTON, D.C. 3000H701 (304 W _ _
i 77 1
occioct thing for u3 to do would have been to toss your 2
4 case to the side, put it in the trash can and say, "We'll 3 pick another guy."
4 THE WITNESS: It wouldn't because I would get back to you.
i 5
You put your hand in my hole --
- 6 MR. MOHRWINKEL: And you know what? I believe 7 you now.
8 (Laughter.)
9 MR. MORRWINKEL: After listening to you for 10 two hours, I believe yu. But my point is this, we could 11 have put your case aside. But because, as I said before -
12 -
i 13 THE WITNESS: It's been put set aside for a 14 long time.
15 MR. MORRWINKEL: Well, we -- John and I didn't 16 put it aside.
17 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
18 MR. MORRWINKEL: And that's why we're here 19 today. And the easiest thing would have been to say, 20 "Well, this guy is" -- as you said, Ou b -
21 We don't want to talk to him. We'll find 22 somebody else."
23 And Barbara knows -- I have had many, many i
24 discussions with her. I have tried to keep Barbara 25 posted. We had some internal problems that had nothing to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS MC TRWSCmtERS 1833 MHoot ISLAND AVE., KW, 9010334438 WASMNGToN. D.C. 3000H701 M 234 4413
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78 1 d3 with ycu. But I --
2 THE WITNESS: I know what the -- they still 3 don't know? )
4 MS. MANGIN: They don't know.
1 5 THE WITNESS: Okay.
6 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Oh, you had the investigators 7 come to see you?
8 THE WITNES$is Well no, the day that you guys 9 were supposed to come, they came.
10 MR. MOHRWINKEL: The investigators, the 11 Inspector General people?
12 THE WITNESS: Yes. No, well --
13 MS. MANGIN: Yes. That's what --
1 14 THE WITNESS: Rossana Raspa.
15 MR. MOHRWINKEL: She came here?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes.
17 MS. MANGIN: Yes.
18 MR. MORRWINKEL: Oh, 19 MS. MANGIN: You see, I didn't tell you that, 20 but you know --
21 MR. MOHRWINKEL: She's only doing her job.
22 MS. MANGIN: It's client confidentiality.
23 THE WITNESS: You ask how I -- why I told 24 them? You know, I've got a big mouth. You know, truly --
25 MR. MORRWINKEL: No, I didn't ask you why you NEAL R. GROSS CCUM REPORTERS AND TwoCftBUW 1323 RHoOE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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79 1 told th m.
2 MS. MANGIN: Yes, you did. Why did you go 3 with them? Why did you -- why did you tell them you were 4 going to go with the papers is what you asked him.
5 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Oh, that. I thought -- no, I 6 thought. I'm sorry. Wait, wait. I want to clarify that 7 because the tape is still running. I thought -- I thought 8 you were saying why did I ask why did the IG come here?
9 MS. MANGIN: No.
10 MR. MOHRWINKEL: I'm not -- I was curious 11 earlier on why you -- and we addressed the question. The 12 IG was here to investigate what happened. I told you on 13 the telephone, Barbara, what had happened. The names had i
14 been inadvertently released by Mr. Hannan's predeccssor, 15 and the Inspector General --
16 THE WITNESS: Carl -- Carl, there is what I 17 said. There is what you think I said, and there is what I 18 think that you think that I said.
19 MR. MOHRWINKEL: But doesn't everybody do 20 that?
21 THE WITNESS: I said there is, okay. Now, 22 what we need to do is separate the wheat from the chafe 23 because Arthur Conan Doyle says, "When you find the 24 bizarre, you remove the impossible. And what remains has i
25 to be the truth."
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80 1 MR. HANNAN: Well, that will be our challenge.
2 We will try to remove the impossible. We're going to do 3 the best we can. We appreciate you taking the time to sit 4 with us.
5 THE WITNESS: This has been my life. It will 6 be my death, hopefully not soon.
7 MR. HANNAN: Do you have any -- any additional 8 comments you want to add before we close the record?
9 MS. MANGIN: The only comment I had was on the 10 letter that we got about the briefing. And it just seemed 11 like it was putting the cart before the horse. Maybe it 12 was the way it was worded.
13 THE WITNESS: has stolen that 14 letter.
15 MR. HANNAN: Is there where we offered to 16 brief follow-up people --
17 MS. MANGIN: Exactly.
18 MR. HANNAN: -- before we issue our report?
19 Why did you feel that we put the cart before the horse 20 there?
21 THE WITNESS: This is the second letter.
22 ,MR. MOHRWINKEL: We sent you two copies 23 because Barbara, you said you didn't get the first one.
24 THE WITNESS: Right, right.
(
25 MR. MOHRWINKEL: We're talking at the same NEAL R. GROSS CoVM MpoMRS AND MNSCN995 1323 fH00E ISLAND AVE., N.W.
__m Nm .__ m . _ _ ,
y 81 1 tima cnd we can't do that, i 2 k THE WITNESS: I thought we were done. ,
3 l MR. MORRWINKEL: No, this is still on the 4
record because you're still talking about our response 5 about the briefing.
6 MR. MOHRWINKEL: It -- when I -- when I read 7 it, it said that you were striving to complete the 8 interview process by early June and be in the position to 9
brief you and other interested parties on our findings by 10 late July or early August.
11 MR. MORRWINKEL: Right.
12 MS. MANGIN: It seemed like -- it seemed, when 13 I read this, that it was a short period of time to
\
14 accumulate all that information into the briefing.
15 MR. MOHRWINKEL: It is.
16 THE WITNESS: But they didn't realize what 17 they were going to get.
18 MR. MORRWINKEL: It is. It is.
19 THE WITNESS: You didn't -- I'll bet had you 20 known what you know now, I would have been higher on the 21 list or I would have been the first interviewed.
22 MR. MORRWINKEL: Actually -- actually, it was 23 just a matter of the logistics. We have to interview 24 everybody --
25 MS. MANGIN: Right.
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82 1 MR. MORRWINKEL: -
and what order we 2
interview the people in la not so important as the 3
information that we get from the people. And as I said to 4
you before, your case is very unique and unlike the other 5 eight, clearly.
6 So your case is -- and that's really one of 7
the reasons why we picked you, going back to day one 8 again.
9 But Barbara is correct. We have a short 10 period of time. We have a deadline of August first. We 11 are planning and hoping to make that deadline.
12 The briefing will come for Joe and everybody 13 else, including the utility -- we want to make -- you
(
14 know, we're treating them the same -- a few days before 15 the report is issued to the public.
16 But it will be after it is in its basic, final 17 version and has been approved by NRC management. So, 18 you'll be given basically a heads-up or a pre-brief of 19 what's going to go to the public.
20 MS. MANGIN: Okay.
21 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Now if, for some reason, 22 looking into Joe's complaints or everybody else's 23 complaints, this thing goes beyond August first, we will
. 24 let you know that. But our target is still the first of l
25 August.
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. WITNESS: You can do it.
2 MR. MORRWINKEL: Well, we're hoping to do it 3 and we're planning to do it.
4 THE WITNESS: Yes. You know --
5 MR. MOHRWINKEL: But again --
'6 THE WITNESS: --
I am the one person in the 7
world that has the range of information that I do.
8 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Well, that's why we're going 9
to turn your case over to the Office of the Inspector --
10 Office of Investigations, I'm sorry, so they can talk to 11 you about that stuff because our focus is much more 12 narrow.
13 Our focus is on the allegation and the
(
14 Employee Concerns Program at Millstone which I think we've 15 already concluded, and we've talked about it here today, 16 did not treat you fairly.
j 17 THE WITNESS: And is still unable to because 18 of what -- they're hobbled, they're bound, they're afraid.
19 MR. MOHRWINKEL: But again, those --
20 THE WITNESS: They're human.
21 MR. MOHRWINKEL: -- those kinds of charges 22 about NRC employees being afraid to do their job are 23 serious charges.
24 THE WITNESS: They are.
25 MR. MOHRWINKEL: And those are charges that we NEAL R. GROSS coum mromus um m asenesna 1833 nHo0E ISL.AND AVE., KW,
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-- becouco thsy concarn potential wrongdoing by NRC 2
employees, those charges will be turned over to the Office 3 of the Inspector General.
4 THE WITNES3: If I've already gone to your 5 head, you're going to shit and do what I want. You're not 6 going to think about who your employer is, what your 7 retirement fund is. You're going to think about one !
8 thing, and that's this small bore right here.
9 And I say, " John" --
10 MS. MANGIN: Carl. ;
1 11 THE WITNESS: Carl.
12 (Laughter.)
13 THE WITNESS: No, what I'm saying is you can't
(
14 -- you can't damn those people -- you can't damn those 15 people for -- I mean on one hand, they have this 16 opportunity to shut up and take the money. Be good, go 17 home and -- and live as cowards the rest of their life, 18 which -- which a great majority of Americans now do.
19 Or you can be Joe Carter and say pull the 20 trigger.
21 MR. HANNAN: Okay, with that, I think we'll 22 close the record. Thank you. It's 4:15.
23 (Whereupon, the interview of JOSEPH CARTER was 24 concluded at 4:12 p.m.)
25 NEAL R. GROSS coum nrromte um nwecmsem t323 MHoOE ISLAND AYE., N.W.
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(
C3RTIFICATE This is to certify that the attached i I
proceedings before the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the matter ofI Hame of Proceeding: INTERVIEW OF JOSEPH CARTER Docket Number: (NOT ASSIGNED)
Place of Proceedingt NEWTON, CONNECTICUT were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission taken by me and, thereafter reduced to i
typewriting by me or under the direction of the court
, reporting company, and that the transcript is a true and accurate record of the foregoing proceedings.
O L '%
CHRIS BAKER official Reporter Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.
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