ML20134Q034

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Transcript of 960530 Interview of G Neron in Waterford,Ct, Exemption 6.Pp 1-51
ML20134Q034
Person / Time
Site: Millstone  Dominion icon.png
Issue date: 05/30/1996
From:
NRC
To:
References
NUDOCS 9702260219
Download: ML20134Q034 (57)
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Text

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i' O/-% .2/V Sfficiel Transcript of Prcoacdings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION

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Title:

Interview of Gary Neron Docket Number: (not assigned) i i

Location: Waterford, Connecticut Date: Thursday, May 30,1996 ,

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UMZTED STATES OF AMIRICA

', 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3 +++++

4 OFFICE OF NUCLEAR REACTOR REGULATION

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1 5 INTERVIEW '

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6 -------------------------------X '

7 In the matter of:  :

8 MILLSTONE REVIEW GROUP . Case File No.

9 ALLEGATIONS & EMPLOYEE CONCERNS: (not assigned) 10 INTERVIEW OF:  :

11 GARY NERON  :

12  :

13 -------------------------------X 14 Thursday, May 30, 1996 15 16 Millstone Nuclear Power Station 17 Training Building, Room 5 I i

18 15 Rope Ferry Road 19 Waterford, Connecticut 20 l

21 The above-entitled interview was conducted at l 1

22 1:16 p.m.

23 BEFORE:

24 JOHN HANNON 25 CARL MOHRWINKEL NEAL R. GROSS court REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHoDE ISt.AND AVE., N.W.

(202) 2M WASHINGTON. D.C. 20 6 3701 (202) 2N

. 2 1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 1

2 (1:16 p.m.)

3 Whereupon, 4 GARY NERON 5 was called as a witness and having been first duly sworn 6 was examined and testified as follows:

7 MR. RANNON: Good afternoon. Today is May the 8 30th 1996, and it's approximately 1:20 p.m. My name is 9 John Hannon. I'm here at the simulator building at 10 Millstone Nuclear Power Station as leader of an NRC review 11 team looking into the handling of employee concerns and 12 allegations at Millstone during the last ten years.

13 Let me introduce Carl Mohrwinkel who is 14 helping in the interviews. Normally I'm the project 15 director in the Office of Nuclear Regulation. I've been 16 assigned to this task and I have been participating in all 17 of the interviews to provide some measure of consistency 18 and fairness in the treatment of the people we're talking 19 with.

20 We're on a fact-finding mission in an attempt 21 to discover what may have gone wrong with the process, 22 develop potential root causes and corrective actions that 23 we could propose for implementation both by the NRC and 24 Northeast Utilities to improve the process for future 25 employee concerns and allegations. 4fe are not an NEAL R. GROSS court REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE N.W.

(202) 2 % 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20006 3701 (202) 234 4433

1

. 3 1 inopaction team. Wa're not en investigation team. If wa 2

uncover any material in those areas, we would either refer 3

it, if it's inspection related, to our office in King of 4 Prussia for follow up, Region I, or if it has to do with 5 wrongdoing, we would refer that to the office of 6 Investigations.

7 We wanted to meet with you specifically, Gary, 8 to get your input on how the NSCP self-evaluation review 9 worked, how you view the corrective actions, the status 10 and the implementation. Primarily that's what we're 11 interested in talking to you about. We are transcribing 12 your interview for two reasons. One is to permit us to 13 focus on what you're telling us and make sure we ask the 14 right kind of follow-up questions, and then also not have 15 to be diverted by note-taking. And then we' 31 have a 16 document that we can refer to in a deliberative process to 17 help us with our decision making. l 18 The accuracy of your transcript if important i

19 to us so we're going to allow you the opportunity to come l

20 back at a later time and review it and make any changes or 21 clarifications or corrections on errata sheets that would 22 be provided to you for that purpose. And I will hand you  !

23 out a set of instructions at the conclusion that would 24 describe that process.

25 We intend to place your transcript in the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRMSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 2%M33 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20006 3701 (202) 2%us3

. . . . . -- -- . _ . . .-.. - - _ . . ~ - -- --

i public dommin at the conclusion of our review. It would 2 be redactive to remove any privacy type of information.

3 And if you choose to object to that, we would withhold it 4 from the public document realm. But realize that if we 5

were to get an FOIA, freedom of information request, we i 6

would have procedures we would need to go through to 7 contact you to see if it was okay to release it to the l

8 person or people who were requesting it.

9 So before we begin, do you have any questions 10 for us?

11 1

MR. NERON: I don't think so at this time.

12 MR. HANNON: Okay. At the conclusion again 1

13 we'll be asking you to tell us whether or not you give 14 your permission to put your transcript in the PDR.

I 15 MR. NERON: I understand. l 16 MR. HANNON: Okay, could you start, Gary, by 17 please explaining your role in the self-evaluation of the 18 NSCP, how you came to be on the team and exactly what role 19 you had in that self-critique?

20 MR. NERON: Well, my supervisor told me that I l

21 was asked to participate in a self-assessment. At the 22 time, I don't remember the exact day, it was quite close 23 to the initiation of the actual process formation of the 4

24 team and the carrying out of the requirements or the 25 request from the CNO.

NEAL R. GROSS court REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1

' 5 l.

i 1 MR. HANNON: Who was your supervisor at the j 2 time?

I f 3 MR. NERON: Mike Hills. Unit 2, reactor 4 engineer type support.

i

) 5 MR. HANNON: And you're in the engineering 6 department?

7 MR. NERON: Yes.

i i 8 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Are you an engineer?

l 4

9 MR. NERON: No, I'm a technician.

1 i 10 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Okay.

l 11 MR. NERON: I was a little hesitant at first j 12 when Mike discussed the issue because being involved with i

l l

13 reactor engineering since 1982 I have been in that group.

t i 14 i

I know a number of the individuals who are involved with l 15 filings and with the NRC, issues involving spent fuel, i

l 16 storage of spent fuel, different systems, etcetera. The i

j 17 cultural, if you will, problems within NU, being aware of 18 them by virtue of just being in the company, comments from i 19 people, discussions, events that take place, so on and so I l

20 forth.

l 21 As I said I was somewhat reluctant at first 22 because of.the word "self-assessment." k 23 1 Ie NEAL R. GROSS CoVRT REPORTERS AND TRANSCNSERS )

1 1323 RHoOE :SLAND AVE.. N.W.

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' 9h 1 I In oth2r words waro wa going to tcka e 2 perspective that had already been defined rather than 3 =cming out with our own conclusions.

4 I don't exactly remember at that point if I 5 had talked with anybody on the team, but I did talk with 6 my supervisor and told him that I was willing to 7 parcicipate. After all is said and done I am very glad 8 that I did. I found the individuals that were on the 9 team, there were some that I knew, some that I had just 10 met for the first time, and we seemed to basically cover 11 the entire spectrum of the industry and the company. And 12 I think many aspects of both supervision and non 13 supervision were well represented. People who had been 14 with the company for quite a while who had been familiar 15 with things that have been going on the site for many 16 years, and those who were new, those from Seabrook, so I 17 think it was a complimentary team.

18 MR. HANNON: If you had to identify the 19 champion that was responsible for pulling these people 20 together, who would that be?

21 MR. NERON: For selecting the people or for I 22 pulling the team together, if you will? In other words 23 one the team members were there -- l i

24 MR. HANNON: Selecting.  !

25 MR. NERON: Selecting, okay. The selection l NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE N.W. i (202) 2N WASHINGTON, D.C. 20006 3701 (202) 234-4433 l l

1 procosa is still nome.what of a mystery to ma because I 2 don't believe that, although Mike Quinn was basically the 3 champion of the group and he was the leader of the team, I 4 don't think Mike individually chose each individual. I 5 think that I was selected by Larry Chatfield. I know that 6 others were selected via other individuals. I think John 7 Godinez, and I think John's name was submitted by Don 8 Miller, I believe. I think maybe Debbie Hersey was from 9 Eric DeBarba. I'm not a hundred percent sure that they 10 were the direct submitter of the names, but I know we had 11 discussed that.

12 MR. HANNON: Why would you feel that Larry 13 Chatfield was the proponent of your participation?

14 MR. NERON: Well, I had asked Mike, you know, 15 how we were selected and I know this may sound strange, 16 but I can't remember if it was Mike that told me Larry had 17 submitted my name or whether it was Larry.

18 MR. HANNON: But if it were Larry, it doesn't 19 matter how you obtained that information, why would you 20 expect him to be the one that offered your name up, what 21 involvement did you have with Larry that would have --

22 MR. NERON: Okay, I understand.

23 MR. HANNON: -- permitted him to make that 24 choice?

25 MR. NERON: I have been interested in things NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHoDE ISt.AND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-M33 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20006 3701 (202) 236 4433

a i i that have been going on within Northeast Utilities, i

l 2 particularly at most on site, for many years, in l

l 3 particular following the 442 incident, 2CH442, the i

l 4 charging valve, I can't remember the process now, but the 5 injection, you know, for stopping leaks.

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e 1 asurm l >$

10 l 11 And I was kind of self-appointed to making l 1

l 12 rounds to different employees, talking with different i

! 13 employees with respect to problems that they might have ,

1 14 and, you know, sitting down to discuss those types of i

15 things. And as we saw different problems come about over 16 the years or perceived problems we looked at 442 incident, I

subsequent perception of unit 2, unit 2 management, 17 j 18 Millstone management, NU management, I began to approach i

i 19 senior management. In particular Don Miller.

t.

20 I had a number of items that I brought to his

. 21 attention from other employees or observations or l

22 conversations with employees either in my department or 23 across departments, across units and so forth.

l 24 And there was an occasion that I do go to see

?

4

) 25 Larry Chatfield to talk to him about a number of these i

! NEAL R. GROSS l COURT RE.*oRTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS j 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

, (204 2344433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 2000b3701 (20 0 234-4433 J

)

. 3 1 inauso with reapact to trying to shad soma light on whara

- ,. 2 we are with respect to employee perceptions, employee

! 3 feelings, employee frustrations, seemingly management 4 frustrations.

, I've had numbers of conversations with my l 5 managers and other managers and supervisors, with  !

i 6 different department's directions.

7 I find it pretty easy to approach people and 8 to discuss things with them. And I think they also find 9 it easy to talk with me. So I just felt that I was in a 10 position to, when I had the opportunity, to discuss things i

11 right down to where the rubber meets the road with I 12 individuals.

13 No bones, no shields, no facades, you know,  ;

\

\

14 we're talking heart to heart, and that I was concerned ~

j 15 about them, I was concerned about the company, and I 16 wanted to see issues resolved if we could, and to try to 17 work within the system, try to help management, if the 18 employee sees something that they perhaps don't, to inform 19 them. And I have a number of items here that I'd like to 20 submit to you as well reflecting that, those kinds of 21' things.

i 22 So I think Larry perhaps saw that I was indeed 23 passionate, if you will, to use that term, for these 24 issues and the present culture, and I think culture is the

25 best word for it at this point, of the company, in i-NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON. D.C. M3701 (202) 234-4433

, 10 1 perticular Millotona, and I wznted to eao improvem2nt.

2 Nobody wants to see us, I don't think, be in the position 3 that we're in or potentially worse. People are concerned 4 about their jobs, they're worried, they're frustrated, .

I i

5 they don't know what to do at this point. They don't know 6 where we're going. The question is, now long can we 7 remain solvent and continue to go down this road, continue 8 to do what we're doing. And that's where people are I 9 think right about at this point.

10 They are looking to be quite frank with seeing 11 some significant changes in the management structure l 12 following the recent shareholders meeting. And I can tell 13 you right now that many, many were extremely disappointed, 14 many felt betrayed after the recent series of events with '

~"7 9M 15 from NU.

16 So, if I can in any way, and I think Larry saw 17 that, I want to be involved with getting things corrected, 18 if I can. If I can be a small help, great. If I can be a 19 large help, great.

20 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Let me just follow up on 21 those two points --

22 MR. NERON: Sure.

23 MR. MOHRWINKEL: --

the shareholders meeting t-~ "" EN 24 and the M) situation. What did employees hope was 25 going to come out of the shareholders meeting that I think NEAL R. GROSS court REPORTERS AND TRmSCRBERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 you're anying didn't?

2 MR. NERON: If I were to put it in just bare 3

bones terms, they wanted to see Bernie Fox resign and  !

4 perhaps Bob Busch do the exact same thing.

5 MR. MOHRWINKEL: And you sense a sense of j 6 frustration among the employees that that did not happen?

7 , MR. NERON: That's correct.

8 MR. MOHRWINKEL: And then you mentioned, I 9

think the word you used was " betrayed" by events recently, 10 I guess last week, involving

/

11 MR. NERON: Correct.

12 MR. MOHRWINKEL: What do you mean by betrayed, 13 what's their view on that situation?

% thtb 14 MR. NERON: Many people who knew I think 15 perhaps the Unit 3 people may have felt it more than those

~

16 Gib in Unit 2. People saw, I think Unit 3 personnel saw 17 come in at a time when he did and kind of really get the 18 unit in shape, take an interest in material conditions and 19 things, you know, loo ed out for his people, for his s

20 unit. If you needed something, he would get it for you.

21 And don't try and snow him, don't try to pull anything 22 over on him. You be straight with him and he'll be 23 straight with you. You always know where he's coming 24 from.

25 So they felt betrayed in that this seemed to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS 20 TRmSCRBERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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a l

12 1 ba totally somathing antegonistic, if you will, to his 2 previous character that he revealed to them.

3 MR. MOHRWINKEL: His actions leading to his 4 leaving?

5 MR. NERON: Correct. Unit 2 personnel perhaps T t$ N 6 there was longer association withl and through the l 7 earlier stages of our development of our existing culture

.8 and in the old days, if you will, things were done a 9 little bit differently, maybe a little bit more footloose, 10 if you will, on the fly kind of thing. People didn't n4 b l 11 always get along with The one thing they did l 12 respect him for, for the most part is, you knew where he 13 was coming from.

14 MR. MOHRWINKEL: So the betrayal was they felt 15 betrayed by nt betrayed by the company for I guess 16 U 17 MR."NERON: That's correct.

18 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Okay.

19 MR. NERON: That's correct.

20 MR. MOHRWINKEL: You're not the only ono, 21 you're certainly not the only one that has this week said, 22 or even last week when it first was announced, that felt 23 that a loss had been suffered because this was somebody t 24 hat the employees looked up to and felt that he would be 25 part of the solution and that he's gone --

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPOERS AND MANSCRBERS T323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 MR. NERON: Thnt's correct.

, , . 2 MR. MORRWINKEL: -- so the employees are 3

saying well now he's gone, the problem has just gotten 4 bigger.

5 MR. NERON: Right.

6 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Nobody has defended him 7 because apparently everybody knows what happened and 8

they're saying well it's just one of those things that had 9

to be done, but I think your use of the word " betrayal" is 10 perhaps a good word because that sort of sums up what 11 people have said to us, not quite as articulately as you 12 have though.

610 13 MR. NERON: There is some defense of and I 14 some anger against the company. And in this case when I 15 say the company, let's say officers above directors.

16 There is anger in that they perceive or people perceive, >

17 employees perceive that this is an incident, and if I an 18 relate it to politics, everyone believes or mort people 19 believe all politicians are dirty. Therefore, they're 20 almost making the same analogy here that all officers hav 21 something somewhere and they just happ ned to get for 22 this particular event. He got caught or whatever and now  !'

,1 23 he's gone. l f

24 If other things were to surface from the other l 1

25 officers, perhaps there would be a similar request or NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

(20@ 2364433 WASHINGTON, D.C. M1 (204 2344433

14 1 mova, diemicaal, removal, dsparture, whichaver. So there 2

are some of those individuals, but I think they're more  ;

3 associated with those tho were ether at Unit 3, assigned

~

4 to Unit 3, or associated somehow with Unit 3.

5 MR. HANNON: So let me get back, if you will, 6 to your engagement in this self-evaluation. You indicated 7 initially, when you were approached to take on this 8 assignment, you felt some reluctance. What happened to I 9

change your view, to cause you to want to be passionately i l

10 involved with this?

11 MR. NERON: Well, my perception was at first 12 that it might be viewed incestuous. As I thought about it 13 more and more I said well I know me, I know myself, I know 14 who I am, I know what I will do, I know what I will not ~

15 do, and I will pursue this in a manner that I would pursue 16 anything else. I have.nothing to hide. If I can find out 17 anything, I'm going to find it out, I will be very 18 meticulous in my approach to doing so. I will not lie for is anybody, I will not hide anything per se, I will not be 20 deceptive for anyone. So I knew where I would be coming 21 from and I was willing to approach it and then work from 22 that perspective.

23 So I decided, hey, if I have the opportunity 24 to be a part of this, why not. Why not be a part of this 25 and wny not approach it and maybe I can be of help. And NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.

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I

  • 15 1

1 if comething should move in a particular direction, mayba

  • 1 2 be able to pull it away from moving in that direction. I 3 MR. HANNON: Okay. So then you became a 1 4 member, a full fledged member, of the team. In hindsight 5 new how do you feel you were able to achieve your 6 objective?

7 MR. Nr.RON: I was extremely pleased that I l

8 made that decision. I think, as I said, that the team was 9 extremely complimentary. We covered the gambit I think of 10 experience including outside consultant, Marty Rhine, who 11 provided us a great deal of help being from outside, not 12 being an NU employee, not being her for ever and ever, if 13 you will, ten years, you know, relatively new on site.

14 And she provided us with a great deal of objectivity, and 15 especially with her background, helped us to focus on a 16 great deal of the human issues instead of, you know, 17 getting really locked in on perhaps technical or i

18 administrative type things.  ;

19 So that was, I felt, was a very good mix. We 20 worked very well together. Unfortunately I think more of  ;

21 us worked, put in more time than others, and I understand l

22 that. I understand how that came about. I myself, I'm l 23 systems engineer for a number of systems, Unit 2, and I I 24 was attending systems engineering training at the time so l 25 I had to leave for a week while the team was involved with 4

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l r

16 1 the -- of carrying out the task, and

  • hen I returned to
2 try and catch up or else be focused on returning to a
3 given point at that time and then resume once I got back.

4 And others who were, like Bill Gagnon and Jeff i

, 5 Warnock from Seabrook understanding that they're a number 6 of hundred miles away, so that made it rather difficult.

7 But all and all I think it was a real good team effort.  !

When we needed to get together to discuss the items, to go t

B d

9 over them to make sure everybody's input was given, was i 10 addressed, was discussed, readdressed, re-discussed, when 1

t 11 we needed to do that we did. And nobody that I can think 12 of was ignored, was isolated intentionally. It was 13 extremely rewarding to do.

14 And quite frankly it awakened an interest in 15 me even greater to pursue this. And hopefully within a 16 few weeks or months I will be transitioning over to work "

17 for Larry Chatfield in the concerns program.

18 MR. HANNON: How do you respond to the 19 criticism that has come to us written by a manager that 20 what this person didn't want to see do again is an ,'

21 unscientific, invalidated, subjective employee concerns 22 assessment?

23 MR. NERON: I've seen that. It has been 24 referred to, or Millstone has been referred to as a 25 technically arrogant group of individuals -- personnel NEAL R. GROSS l

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~7 1 like engineering dupertmants or I think of that l 2 particularly in Unit 2 because I'm the engineering group, 3 we were told we were technically arrogant. I understand 4 technical arrogance. To me this is administrative  !

5 arrogance or officer arrogance. I 6 I was in total disagreement with that, not 7 because I was part of the team, but because of what I did 8 as a team member in talking with individuals, finding out ,

)

9 where the company employees are really coming from. I had 10 interviews that lasted over two hours. I had interviews 11 where I talked with people, I should say I asked them 12 probably less than a quarter of the questions or less than 13 half of the questions we had on our sheets because these 14 people just wanted to talk. They just wanted to vent.

15 They just wanted somebody to listen to them.

16 And it's obvious that we're not doing that.

17 e Neither the sup'rvisors are not, managers are not, or the 18 directors are not, and so on. These kind of comments I 19 think are totally out of place. My understanding was that 20 there was an effort to follow up on our report to bring an 21 outside group I think, I think it was the Coast Guard 22 Academy or people in the Coast Guard Academy, someone who 23 does electronic surveys I believe, as best I remember, 24 they were going to come in, it was like a four man team or 25 something, to basically come in and conduct the survey NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRISERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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'a 1

. which would ultimately refute our findings.

2 I believe there were team members that 3

mentioned that to Don Miller and I think Don Miller had 4

basically put a stop to that activity. That's what I 5 heard. I wasn't involved in that. But I was told that, 6 and I was pleased to hear that.

7 MR. HANNON: You were told that they were 8 coming in to refute your findings or that --

9 MR. NERON: Well, they would come in and do 10 their survey and quite possibly refute our findings.

11 MR. HANNON: Or validate them?

12 MR. NERON: Either or, right. But I think in 13 terms of my team members discussing this, it was that 14 obviously someone has disclaimed or verbally discredited 15 what we did, okay. That's your opinion you can do that.

16 So to hear that there's someone coming in, they said why.

17 We spent tremendous amount of time and effort on this, i

18 gave the presentation, you can see the questions, you can 19 see where they're coming from.

20 If you're from human resources or 11 you're in 21 this office or position or these office or positions, you 22 should know a little bit about human beings, you should i

23 know a little bit about your personnel, see where they're i 24 taking you, where are they coming from, what's the pulse, 25 what's the tone, and what's the atmosphere.

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3 1 So if you had this input basically from the 2 heart and soul of your people and you're saying this is 3 unscientific, I question you're judgment. Or define for 4 me please what is scientific.

5 We did not, we purposely did not focus on 6 subjective questions, are we trying to stay away from 7 subjective questions. We struggled for hours and hours 8 and hours to come up with these questions and to keep them 9 open-ended. That was the focus, we don't want to box 10 anybody in, we don't want to funnel them down a direction.

11 But at the same time knowing the things that aie bothering 12 them or items that need to be discussed, let's give them 13 the opportunity and let's proceed this way.

14 You know, if the problems are between i 15 supervision and subordinate personnel, ask those questions 16 that deal with that. "How do you get along with your l 17 supervisors?" "How does he get along with you?" "How do 1

18 you talk to them?" And these are fundamental things, 19 these are pretty basic human relations.

20 So I personally took offense to that. I 21 understand it, I understand they're coming from our 22 officers.

23 MR. RANNON: And you indicated that you were 24 expecting to be brought into the NSCP program office under 25 Larry Chatfield.

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-a 20 1 MR. NERON: Right.

2 MR. HANNON: What gives you reason to think 3 that's going to happen?

4 MR. NERON: Because Larry has asked me to, to

5 join the group.

6 MR. HANNON: And does your present management 7 agree --

8 MR. NERON: Oh, I'm sorry. Yes, Larry has 9

asked me if I would like to become part of his group. As 10 far as I know at this point my vice president, Eric 11 DeBarba, he and I have talked, I told him that this is 12 what I would like to do. He is in agreement, and Don 13 Miller has approved it. I think HR has basically accepted 14 that's going to take place. I guess they're just waiting 15 for final authorization. The memo from-- whether it's 16 Larry or Don Miller I don't know at this point.

17 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Would this be a promotion for 18 you, or in other words would the employee concerns job pay 19 you more than what you're making now?

20 MR. NERON: No.

21 MR. MOHRWINKEL: So it's not a promotion 22 MR. NERON: I am a non exempt grade 33 right 23 now, and that's the highest non exempt grade that we have.

24 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Well, what does that mean?

25 MR. NERON: Okay, I get paid for my overtime i

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_ . _ _ . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ . . _ . - . . _ . _ _ _ . _ , . . . . _ . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ . _ _ . . . _ . _ . . _~ . _ _ _ _

t.

t -. i

4. ,

I i

1 for ever hour and I have all the benefits of being non i 2 exempt  ;

l 3 MR. MOHRWINKEL: When you say non ex.empt I

you're taking about the Fair Labor Standards.Act, correct?

4 5 MR. NERON: Right, right. And all that goes 6 with that. And typically non exempt personnel receive 7 similar company benefits that are afforded to unionized 8 personnel at CY. So basically what they get, we get. And 9 usually that's very fair and it's quite good.

f 10- Typically over the.past few years I'have been i

11 making in the range of senior engineer, maybe beyond 12 depending the amount of overtime that I have to put in. I 1

13 do know what my position grade will be at the NSCP. At l

l 14 first,-initially, it was a lateral transfer. There may be l

15 -- I amy be going in, and I don't know it for sure, coming j 16 in as an exempt. And I'm not sure what grade that is, l

l l 17 whether it be grade 8, 10, 11, 17, I have absolutely no 1

18 idea at this point. l 1

19 MR. MOHRWINKEL: So really by doing that you

! 20 might be losing some benefits? l 21 MR. NERON: Oh absolutely, yes.

l 22 MR. MOHRWINKEL: And again let me clarify why I 23 I'm asking this, I'm not trying to, you know, be the --  !

24 MR. NERON: I understand.

25 MR. MOHRWINKEL: -- IRS looking back at you -- I

(

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22 1 MR. NERON: No, no, that's fine.

2 MR. MOHRWINKEL: -- the reason I'm asking is

3 one of the things we've heard complaints about is how the I

4 personnel system is run here and that they publicly go and i 1

5 say, you know, everybody is going to apply for jobs, uh-6 oh, but not you.

7 MR. NERON: Right.

f 8 MR. MOHRWINKEL: And I'm just curious now, i

9 again in a lateral reassignment, that's a little bit 10 different, but if this was going to be a promotion l

1 11 opportunity for you or anybody else similarly situated l 12 that --

a 13 MR. NERON: Right.

14 MR. MOHRWINKEL: -- may have the same general i

15 interest you do in employee concerne and personnel related

16 issues and improving the situation nere, somebody else 17 might say hey Why is Gary getting that job non 18 competitively, why isn't it announced so that I get it.

19 MR. NERON: Correct.

4 20 MR. MOHRWINKEL: So that's where my questions 21 were going. Having been on this Quinn task force how do l 22 you perceive the advertising of jobs here? And again let

'4 23 me more specific, we heard from one manager that he posted 24 a job for a relatively senior job, $70-$80,000.00 range 4

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f 23 1

9 many he got, either one or three applicants, but in my 2

view that's a very small number for a nice sounding job in 3 the S70-580,000 pay range which is a pretty good pay 4 range.

And the manager said that sort of is typical and 5 in his particular area. What's your view of that, are-6 people afraid to apply for jobs, do they think that the 7

system is rigged, that the jobs are preselected or what is 8 your thoughts on that whole process?

9 MR. NERON: In the past, if somebody wanted to 10 do something here at NU, it would be done, period.

11 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Somebody being, what, hiring?

12 MR. NERON: You can watch people move from 13 here to there. I think many people would not put in for a 14 particular position because they knew that it was a waste 15 of time, they already had the candidate. It would either 16 be posted or not posted. Regardless they already knew who 17 basically would end up in that position or have a good 18 idea. And that has been evident in the past. It just 19 existed, all you had to do is look, just watch and see who 20 went where, at what grade and so forth.

21 Today I think the greater problem is who do I 22 work for if I go or if I apply for that position. I think 23 people are concerned at this point about the VP, which VP 24 and I going to be working for, what am I going to be 25 doing, what's the prospect for that particular group.

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24 1 organization, what's that VP's -- how do I view that VP, 2 is he going to be here in the near future.

U 3 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Is there a sense that some of 4 these VPs are not going to be here in the near future?

5 MR. NERON: There is little trust within this 6 company, very little trust, very little respect.

. 7 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Of the managers?

4. 8 MR. NERON: Very little respect?

9 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Of the managerr,?-

a 10 MR. NERON: Beyond that, okay. I think people 11 feel abandoned at this point. I think they feel 12 comfortable where they're at. It's almost like they're 13 digging in, I'm going to protect me and my group, we're 14 going to do the best we can, and we're going to tough it

15 out. They're reluctant. I think some are reluctant to 16 change, and a lot are looking to leave. You hate to do 17 that. There certainly isn't much in the area. You would 18 have to look out of state for the most part. Or certainly 19 have to have your, you know, home and finance situation 20 change significantly.

21 Many of the people here are young and many are 22 looking for buy-outs. There's almost a new rumor every i

23 week. There's one that's out now that they hear, and 24 that's going to come out again in '97. And people are 25 looking for these things. It's incredible because we're NEAL R. GROSS COURT REFoRTERS AND TWNSCRIBERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 e

25  !

1 not looking to go someplace. We're not looking towards a 2

goal anymore because it's tough to find a goal. People 3 are looking for leadership and they don't see it. People 1

4 are looking for, at Unit 2, people are looking for a 5

champion to say hey, this is the road we're running and 6 when they ask you to run, you get on board. Number two, i

7 which is below task one, if you're on task three,' people 8

on task two ask you, you go, period.

9 We're crying out for leadership, we've been i

10 doing that for years, and it's not happening. We have --

11 we're repeating, we're repeating history, period. We're l 12 not seeing the implementation of the things that were l i

13 expected. Most people perceived -- no, they didn't i 14 perceive it. Most people viewed, okay, and accepted that i 15 the most recent announcement, (i.e. January of the new

- i 16 officers), this wasn't an officer change, it's a shuffle.  ;

17 That's all it is, period. To call it anything else is --

18 the employees feel insulted when you tell them that.

19 And then we come out with, you know, the 20 cliches that are killing us, you know, because we're 21 saying them but we're not doing them. We don't have them 22 -- safety -- first time, etcetera, on down the line. And 23 we have the above and below the line chart for 24 accountability and so forth. People here know they're l

1 1

25 accountable. People here get upset when you'tell them you NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRISERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 26  ;

i

1 need to be accountable and responsible. We already are. '

2 We already know that. I don't think there's anybody on i 3 this site who doesn't know that they're accountable and 4 responsible.

5 But what happens to me or the other individual 6

when they do something wrong, when they don't do something 7 they're supposed to either by omission or commission, what 8 happens. And we sit and wait.

9

, MR. HANNON: Speaking of the accountability 10 issue for a moment, do you personally have a position 11 description for your present job?

12 MR. NERON: I'11 say yes and no. I have a i

13 systems engineering handbook. I am a technician. There

]

14 has not been, in my mind that I could find, a good description of my position (i.e. a grade 33 station 15 i

16 technician) for what I do. I'm out on the fringe. Peing i

17 a station tech and being a systems engineer is I think

~

18 unique, if you will.

19 MR. HANNON: How are you evaluated in your 20 performance reviews, what criteria is used to evaluate 21 your performance?

22 MR. NERON: The standard performance review 23 sheet, if you have ever seen it.

24 MR. MOHRWINKEL: So it's not really specific 25 to what you're doing on a daily basis, it's more generic,

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^

2-1 right? ,

. l 2 MR. NERON: Yes, right.

, And do we have six 3

4 months reviews?" Some do and some don't. Is there a 4

career development path, is there something to move you 5 along? No, I haven't seen it and I haven't experienced it 4

6 personally. And that's not a fault of my supervision.

7 MR. MOHRWINKEL: It's a fault of what?

8 MR. NERON: I will give them that. It's a 9 fault of our culture. It's a fault of our reactionary 10 approach to living here day to day at Millstone. We're 11 very good at responding with respect to attacking or 12 approaching a problem when it's knee- jerk reaction. j 13 We're very good at that, we've been doing that for 14 plus i

14 years I've been here. We're real good at it. We can put '

15 it together in a hurry. We can fix the problem. But how 16 to deal with one another, how to communicate, how to 17 interact and really become a team, we don't know how to do 18 that. Unit 2 does not on how to do that. It still 19 doesn't know how to do that.

20 We have the words, we have the phrases, and we 21 have the goals, if you will, but we don't have the reality 22 of it. Because, I truthfully believe by experience, that 23 they don't know how to do it.

24 I'll share with you that very shortly after 25 the shutdown for 2CH442 I sat with, a few weeks or a short NEAL R. GROSS court REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE !$ LAND AVE., N.W.

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~ - - . - - .- - _ - . -. .

28 1 period after, the IRT or the group that was involved with 2

the independent review team of the incident, and put

3 together a number of things and the champions or the task ^

4 leaders-who would go after these particular aspects of the 5 review.

6 Jack Keenan was the lead in many. My manager, a

7 John Riley, I believe had some involvement with that as j 8 well. And I looked at that after I came back, whether it '

l

9 was vacation or something, I don't remember what it was, l 1 l

! 10 but I managed to get it to look at it and read it. And I 4

11 had a slew of questions with respect to it. And I

12 remember during the outage I was on second shift and John i

13 Riley had super, I think he was DSEO, so it was about 9:30 14 or so at night --

15 MR. HANNON: SEO?

16 MR. NERON: DSEO. Oh, the --

i 17 MR. HANNON: Shift engineering officer?

18 MR. NERON: Yes, it's the individual who 4

19 stands in for the unit superintendent at the time or the l 1

20 unit director when he is not there.

1 21 MR. HANNON: Okay.

22 MR. NERON: Sorry, I don't remember it.

23 Anyway, I sat down and had a good heart to heart with John

(

24 Riley, and we discussed many things. I said John, I said 4

25 between you and me I said technically you're very good at NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRMSCRISERS I323 RHoOE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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, 29 1 what you do. Unit 2 engineering dspartmnnt, which is now 2 tech support, is very good at what it does. I mean we've 3 been basically self-sufficient, we've had to be because of 4 our approach to business, doing business. And we've been 5 good. We've had core people who have been able to work l

6 together, 7 But I said John I said as a manager I just l 4

8 don't think you have d I said that's not an insult, I said that takes certain personnel 1

9 l

10 qualities and characteristics just like a brain surgeon, 11 it takes certain skills, it takes a certain mentality, a 12 certain character who has to either exist and be nurtured l 13 in an individual or forget it, you're just not going to do 14 that.

15 And it's no insult or shame that you can't do I 16 that. I mean technically you're extremely good, and you 17 know how to micro manage a certain particular issue. But 18 on a broad scale, we just don't see it. We don't see 19 management taking place.

20 And that's just pervasive, we just see that.

21 There are a few individuals -- I can't say that across the 22 board, we have some very good people here, there's some 23 extremely good people. And we have good supervisors.

24 There are some managers who are good, who the employees 25 trust, and you can see at least they are trying to work at NEAL R. GROSS CoVRT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE N.W.

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l 30 1 it.

2 Since the report has come out I have been 3 approached by one director and one supervisor asking for 4 help, asking for some insight. You know, help us out, 5 give us some of the nuances of the report. I'm not asking l

6 for people's names or anything, what can we do, what do we 7 need to do, or we're headed this way, what do you think 8 about this. Which is very healthy, which is something 9 that didn't axist before, it really didn't. So I view 10 that as very encouraging in some, but not all.

11 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Let me ask this question.

12 MR. NERON: Sure.

13 MR. MOHRWINKEL: You planned leadership was a 14 very good one a few minutes ago and we got off a little 15 bid. We talked earlier in this interview about the 16 and the view that the employees had of him, would you care 17 to say who, let's say this vice president rank and higher 18 or slightly lower, have the potential to be leaders in the 19 view of the staff employees, or do they think they're all 20 no good?

21 MR. NERON: If we go back before the officer 22 changes, if we go back to basically when Dpn Miller was 23 the man here at Millstone, Don Miller was very respected 24 by the employees, by most employees. If they didn't trust 25 him or believe everything, at least they knew he was NEAL R. GROSS CoVRT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRBERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE., N W.

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'31 4

1 approachable, they liked him and they respscted him for 2

that.

They also understood that he had a tremendous task 3 to undertake. This isn't something that you're going to 4 cure within a "ouple c of months. There was a tremendous 5 load on his shoulders.

6 He was very visible.

I mean he was out with i J  !

7 l

the troops time and time and time again. I mean you'd see 8

him with the maintenance guys going out. He'd be in 9

4 coveralls and going out to work with the guys in the shop. l 10 l I mean this extremely different for the employees to see. {

11 You know, every once in a while you'd see an 12 officer come around, but usually he was with an entourage 13 and it was announced ahead of time and then you'd get 14 ready for the dog and pony show and that was it.

4 This was 15 entirely different.

This was a guy who seemed to be very i 16 interested. I think people had great hopes for Don.

4 They  ;

17 didn't always agree with everything he said, but again

18
they respected him and they looked forward to his coming  ;

19 to see them, and he was approachable.

20 I mean he almost always seemed to have time 21 for you. And that was hard. I know it was hard for him 22 because I approached him a number of times. I also i i

23 included a list of items that he and I had discussed back 24 in I think February of last year.

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32 1 for Don to lead us out of this. I think today people, 2

it's hard to say, Don would have to really get some 3

intestinal fortitude, take the bull by the horns.

4 MR. MOHRWINKEL: And you don't see that 5 happening with him?

6 MR. NERON: We don't see that happening with 7 any of the officers. Where are they? That's the 8 question.

9 One of the things we recommended from the 10 report was that Ted Fagenbaum be the champion. Ted get 11 out here, talk with the people. Don't be afraid to get 12 out here. Don't announce to them you're coming.

13 How on earth can you deal with a situation if 14 you don't know what that situation is?

How can you say 15 you're going to deal with these employee issues, if you 16 don't know where they are if you don't know where they're t

17 coming from? And it may not be all the employees. You 18 know, they may all feel negative about the officers, but 19 that's in degree. Some would have them all fired. Some 20 say two, some say one. Some say the majority have to go, 21 but we like this one.

22 So we recommended that they do come out. In 23 particular Ted, and he hasn't done that. We have not seen 24 that. As a matter of fact, the reason I included that in 25 here, we've got an E-mail that said Ted Fagenbaum is going NEAL R. GROSS coVM REPoMERS AND TRWSCRBERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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33 1

to be coming up, wa're going to contcet you when he's 2

coming up to give you some heads-up and so forth. And 3

this is 180 degrees diametrically opposed to what we told 4 you. This is not what people want.

5 People want people now, they're tired of a 6

figurehead, they're tired of a system, they're tired of a 7

program, they're tired of a slogan. They want leadership 8

and they want it in the form of a person who can talk to 9

them, who can touch them, who can empathize really, and 10 that's what they're looking for. Not everybody wants 11 that, but I think a great, the vast percentage of the 12 people here are looking for that. Whether they believe 13 any of the officers now can really do that, it's hard to 14 say.

15 I think from my conversations with people I 16 have included a survey in here too, a recent one that I -\ I 17 just did independently. There is less of a belief that 18 any of them who do now exist will be the ones to take us 19 out and get us back on to solid ground. There are some 20 who still do, but that population has decreased.

21 MR. MOHRWINKEL: I believe there were two 22 comments while we were here, one was that when they did 23 this January reorganization all they was move the chairs 24 around. And thr: second was that, you know, any new 25 Administration, White House or Senator or President or NEAL R. GROSS CoVRT AEPoRTERS AND TRANSCRBERS 1323 RHoOE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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l

34 1 whatever get a hundred dny honeymoon and they kind of felt 2 that Fagenbaum had already spent his and had missed some 3 opportunities, and you are sort of saying the same thing.

4 MR$. NERON: Absolutely, yes. No question 5 about it.

6 MR. MOHRWINKEL: That people who were excited 7

about him coming and he came in with, you know, both guns 8 firing and then more than a hundred days have gone by and 9 they don't see a lot of action. Is that your impression?

10 MR. NERON: Yes. Also reflected secondhand to 11 me, I think it's important to bring it up at this time, I 12 also included that to a degree and I'll elaborate on it 13 now. But recently Ted had a meeting here with officers, {

14 and I'm not sure of all the attendants, but it was a 15 couple of weeks ago and I included the dates here, but 16 there was a meeting with respect to getting Unit 3 back on 17 line. And it was relayed to me that Ted was, he was 18 livid, he was on fire, he was hot, seemingly, you know, 19 quite angry or certainly adamant about his statements, and 20 it was a drive for getting Unit 3 to the position with 21 respect to 50.54f questions etcetera to where we can look  ;

22 at getting Unit back on line. And this began the great 23 thrust for procedural reviews, revisions, and so forth 24 just a couple of weeks ago.

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1 m2 that ha ccid that Don Millor, Don Millar'o group or tha 2 oversight group, safety group was going to have to be 3 involved to some degree in working with the procedures.

4 And I believe that Don Miller had made mention that being 5 oversight and saf.ety that really wasn't what they should 6 do. And then c me in and basically read them 7 the riot act, if you will, that that's not being part of 8 the team, like a team player, you need to get on board and l 9 so forth. And then the meeting just progressed as dead.

10 There wasn't much more that was shared with me at that o

11 point.

12 That weekend saw some of the results of that.

13 In our department, our temporary clerk and our procedure 14 coordinator in Unit 2 tech support were requested to work 15 on Saturday. They declined that and were ask.ed Sunday to 16 support that effort, Unit 3 procedure effort, the Unit 3 17 procedure effort. So they agreed to do that.

18 MR. MORRWINKEL: I hate to step out for a 19 second, but I'm also going to ask how to back everybody 20 else up because we've got people standing -- excuse me for 21 one minute.

22 MR. NERON: Do you want me to continue?

23 MR. HANNON: Go ahead.

24 MR. NERON: Okay. They were basically 25 required to work almost 16 hours1.851852e-4 days <br />0.00444 hours <br />2.645503e-5 weeks <br />6.088e-6 months <br />, no lunch provided.

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1 MR. HANNON: VoluntcGred?

2 MR. NERON: Yes. They were requested to work 3

and once you are performing your task you like to, and you 4 know it's your job to continue to do that. They weren't 5 told they couldn't go to lunch, but there was no offer to 6 break for lunch, etcetera. So they finally I think --

7 there was a point where they got a break, I think it was 8 towards dinner time, where they elected to go out and get 9 lunch. But they ended up staying until I think about a 10 quarter of 11:00 that night.

11 But they told me, and think this has been, I 12 think they discussed, well I know they discussed why, I 13 know they discussed the issue with Jim Tyrol, the NSCP, I 14 know they discussed it with Jim, and I'm pret?.y sure that 15 he forwarded the information to I believe to Mike Brown because there was a question of hours here, allowable 16 17 hours to work.

18 Supposedly the person that was driving the 19 issues with the procedures, getting the procedures 20 revised, was a contractor, and I think he had been there 21 like 85 hours9.837963e-4 days <br />0.0236 hours <br />1.405423e-4 weeks <br />3.23425e-5 months <br /> that week. Which, if you read the strict 22 interpretation of the NE&O for overtime policies, well 23 tech support and design engineering and so forth personnel 24 really don't fall under that. However, there was a recent 25 memo issued by s y ng that everybody is going NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRBERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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i 37 1 to fall in lina with thans requirem2nto. So there just 2 seems to be some contradiction here. I have a memo that 3 says this, but yet at the same time I have people that are 4 working extremely long weeks.

5 The procedures as the procedure coordinator )

6 relayed it to me, the procedures were less than perfect.

i 7 Meaning by that, that they did not conform a hundred 8 percent to writer's guide requirements.

9 I know subsequent to that day I was approached 10 by other individuals in the administration department that i l

11 some of these apphrent glitches in the administrative i l

12 requirements were beginning to show up. They were very l 13 upset. And I encouraged them to discuss the issues with l l

i 14 the supervisors, managers, directors, etcetera, whatever )

1 15 you had to do to get the situation resolved. And they all 16 managed to meet, to get together, and apparently they did i

17 take care of those particular issues.

18 But again we dictate we have a pass for 19 safety. We're going to do it right the first time. We're 20 going to take the time that it needs to do the job right.

21 And all of a sudden out of the blue by seemingly the new 22 CNO, I mean here are again, we're under the gun, we're in 23 full after burners, and the guys, you know, where does I

24 everything that we said we were going to do come into play '

25 here?

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33 1

It seems that tha moct importent thing to do, 2

and I understand that, financially I understand that, I 3

don't have a problem with that, but we're saying pass for 4

safety, do it right the first time, and yet we're pedal to 5 the metal with getting Unit 3 back on line. And you're 6

forcing people to work long hours, perhaps make some 7

administrative slip-ups, and this is the sure fire way of 8 getting ourselves back in trouble again.

9 We're going to have it. We're going to have 10 divisions. Like I said, I had people contact me and 11 discuss these items with me because they were upset. So 12 again, I have to reiterate I asked them to meet with the 13 individuals who were responsible to get the problems 14 corrected, and they did.

15 My problem is that we don't see that. And 16 whatever level management still doesn't see that, that 17 leads to, whether it be at the CNO level, senior VP 18 oversight nuclear operations, the directors, the managers, 19 the supervisors, they still don't see that.

20 Now, supervisors, actually I'm seeing more 21 from supervisors, and hearing better things from personnel 22 and their supervisors. Some not, but I'm encouraged 23 because we are getting better repores. And that seems to 24 be some of the strength that we had before. It's when we 25 get to the manager levels and above when the frictions are NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCR8ERS 1323 RHoOE ISLAND AVE N.W.

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39 1 the distances, the voids, seem to occur. And the 2 communications break down, the awareness of what's going 3 on seems to break down. And thus the management of the l

4 issues or even the unit begin to break down. '

) 5 MR. HANNON: Back to the corrective action 6 plan that was put in place for the self-evaluation you 7 did. I think it was recently issued the first of April.

i 8 Did you have an opportunity to participate in the  !

4 9 development of that or to review it --

, 10 MR. NERON: Yes.

11 MR. HANNON: -- which?

12 MR. NERON: Yes, I did. I think that I would 13 say the initial development I know that Eric Fries was 14 tasked with putting that together, and I know he took what 15 we had from the report. Primarily my function was review 16 and feedback, which Eric took and made changes or 17 additions, subtractions, whichever with respect to the 4

2 18 feedback that I did give him. And I'm quite certain, I 19 don't know, I believe that everyone had that opportunity 20 to do that on the team as far as I know with respect to 21 the plant, but I know that my questions, my review that I 22 did was addressed.

23 MR. HANNON: You mentioned earlier how 24 important you felt it was for Ted Fagenbaum to actually i

25 get out in the field and. meet with the troops and be open NEAL R. GROSS court REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 cnd recaptiva, and that hnen't occurrsd yat. Was that 2 part of the recommendations in your report?

s-3 MR. NERON: Yes.

4 MR. HANNON: How was that factored into the 5 action plan or was it?

6 MR. NERON: I don't remember verbatim.

s I know 7 that Ted's presence was emphasized, that he did need to be 8 here. I know we did state it specifically that way in the 9 report because I have a copy of the page attached to that 10 memo that came out or the E-mail came out and said that p "9 EI b 11 Ls going to be coming, you will be notified, 12 etcetera. So I know we made specific mention of that in 13 the report. I cannot remember whether it not it was 14 specifically stated that way in the action plan.

15 MR. HANNON: Well, it would have been captured

16 in one of the nine global activities like communications 17 or something in that area probably?

18 MR. NERON: Right, yes, I know it was 19 addressed for his visibilt.ty, and certainly his visiting 20 the station and communications because that was a big 21 part. Unless you communicate you're not going to regain 22 the respect and trust that you're looking for, that you j t

23 need. i i

24 MR. HANNON: Okay.

25 MR. MOHRWINKEL: I apologize for ducking out NEAL R. GROSS J COURT REPORTERS AND TMNSCRBERS 3323 rho 0E ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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41 1 twice, but wa've got interviewaes acccking up in the  ;

2 halls.

3 MR. NERON: I'm sorry.  !

4 MR. MOHRWINKEL: No, it's not your fault, it's j 5 our fault. We started late this morning by about almost a 6 half an hour. We had some administrivia, so.

7 MR. HANNON: All right, you've got a package 8 of material with you that you've indicated you want to 9 give to us.

10 MR. NERON: Yes.

l 11 MR. HANNON: And also I want to, in the 1

12 interest of time, to maximize the input we're getting from l

l 13 you, do you have any additional thoughts or comments you l

14 want to share with us that we haven't asked for or you 15 think maybe we should have gotten on the record?

I 16 MR. NERON: I think it's important that you i

17 know (i.e. the Commission) knows that I believe many j 18 people are looking to you now as a big factor.

19 MR. MOHRWINKEL: To do what?

20 MR. NERON: It's not something that you can 21 really put your finger on. I think if we were to perhaps 22 spell it out, it would be to perhaps make a suggestion 1

23 however the exact relationship that you have and can have 24 to the corporation or the officers. I think perhaps what

, 25 --

I think perhaps people would like to see the NRC be the NEAL R. GROSS coVM REPoMEMS AND TRANSCRBERS v

1323 RHoOE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.

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)

42 1

chsmpion for us now that wa apparently lost our champion.

2 In other words that the NRC can somehow suggest pressure, 3 if you will, the officers or the company. Now, granted 4 that's somethin'g that I'm not asking you to do. All I'm 5 saying is I'm making, I'm trying to relate where people 6 are looking right now.

7 Again, after the stockholders' meeting they 8 looked for something significant to happen. They said how

9 can you watch, you know, a billion plus company equity go 4

10 down the tubes and survive as a CEO? You can't do that.

11 In the world, that wouldn't happen, seemingly. But here 12 it happened. And they feel abandoned now. What can we 13 do?

14 So I think the only thing now that they're 15 looking up is perhaps the NRC to be some outside agent 4

16 that may help us to keep things moving in a direction such 17 that we address' human aspects rather than just the 18 technical aspects. Because the technical things are easy.

19 That's a piece of cake. You can fix that stuff. And 20 that's probably one of the things that's easy for our 21 management personnel.

22 It's easy to grab a piece of pipe and repair 23 it or replace the piece of pipe, or do the calculation or 24 the evaluation. It's easy to do that, I can put my hands 25 on it. When we start dealing with people, when we start NEAL R. GROSS l court REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS '

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43

~

1 daaling with tha human element it has all kinds of

\

2 variables. I'm comfortable -- I'm uncomfortable, excuse 3 me, I'm out of my league and you can see that, it's 4 evident. We heard it and we continue to hear it. l 5

So again they're not looking for you guys to 6

be, you know, the knight in shining armor really, but 7

they're hoping that perhaps somehow the NRC can help us or 8 can' help NU to some degree.

9 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Well, I don't think we have 10 any extra copies of our charter for this task force here,  !

11 but I think you will get one from Bill Temple, and it 12 might explain to you in more detail, particularly in the 13 interest of time, what we're trying to do. But in short  !

14 summary what we're trying to do and are going to do in our 15 August ist targeted date for our report is try and define 16 what has gone wrong with both the employee concerns 17 elements and the allegations elements by both parties, NU 18 and NRC.

19 MR. NERON: Yes.

l 20 MR. MOHRWINKEL: What each party did right in 21 some cases and what each party did wrong in other cases.

22 We're certainly finding a lot of information that fits i 23 unfortunately into the wrong category more than the right 24 category for both sides of the equation. And so perhaps 25 and our purpose is to provide a report that's going to NEAL R. GROSS court REPORTERS AND TRANSCRISERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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l l

  • l 44 i 1

have suggasted recommandations or how both parties can fix 2 the process.  !

3 So that's what at least the five of us on this

~

4 team are charged with doing. And as I'm sure you're 5

aware, there are other teams looking at other issues --

6 MR. NERON: Right.

i 7

i . MR. MOHRWINKEL: --

primarily technical. I l

8 think we're the key team that's looking at these personnel 9

l related and administrative related issues. And I thirk i 10 that employees have been really remarkably cooperative and 11 l

remarkably forthright with us during these last several

}

12 weeks we've spent here, particularly since everybody knows l 13 that these tapes are running, and everybody still have 1

14 been remarkably up front with us. And several key people 15 have asked to come back for second interviews to give us 16 more information they thought we should have or they 17 forgot to share with us the first interview.

18 So I think we're optimistic that we're going 19 to be able to produce a helpful document and I guess it's l 20 encouraging and nice to know that the employees are l

21 hopeful that we're going to be part of the solution.

l l 22 MR. NERON: Most of the people that I've been 23 talking to don't want to go to the outside agency, they 24 don't want to go to the papers, they want'to work within

25 the system. They want to work tecribly so. I mean NEAL R. GROSS CoVM REPORTERS MD TRMSCRBERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE N.W.

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4:

1 th2y'ra c1most to th3 point of whare I think,.ca I'va 2

tried to read them, to where it aches, te where it hurts, 3

how come we can't do this, this is very simple? I mean 4 most people have families. I mean how do you deal with 5 your own family situations?

6

-I mean we fix these issues this place is going 7 to take off. You're not going to have what you have now.

8 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Do you think the situation 9

here has bottomed out yet, or do you have farther to go 10 down? '

11 MR. NERON: I don't think it's bottomed yet.

12 I really don't. And the reason I say that is because now 13 because of the stockholders, shareholders' meeting and the 14 results of that, the " apparent betrayal" in many people's 15 minds by one of the former VPS, the leaving, the seemingly 16 former officers leaving large sums of money, here I am 17 now, I'm at NU, I bought stock, I don't know if I'm going 18 to have a job tomorrow. That's in many people's minds.

19 one particular individual who has been, as a 6.%

20 matteroffacth did not like the, what was it, the 2000 21 program, not the MFNS, but regardless --

22 MR. HANNON: Partnership 2000.

23 MR. NERON: Thank you very much. Partnership l

(

24 2000 program -- '

25 MR. MOHRWINKEL: What was that abbreviation NEAL R. GROSS court REPoMERS AND TMWSCm8 EMS 1323 RMo0E ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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\

)

1 you juct ussd M com2 thing?

2 MR. NERON:

Managing for nuclear safety, I'm 3 sorry.

This particular individual has been very pro.

4 supervisory, m'anagement, right on up through to the VPs.

5 This particular individual didn't like to see the 6

employees get to the point where they could really 7

seemingly abuse the process to put their supervisor or 8

manager in between a rock and a hard place, or basically 9

make it, you know, impossible for the supervisor or 10 manager to discipline individuals. This individual now 11 has gotten to the point where v ry negative. And 12 this is within the past four to five months.

13 So it's rather a remarkable change to see that 14 happen. e6 Now, BecausewhenwetalkedWwasvehement.

15 it's very very different. Nesmentionofthat too.

16 MR. MOHRWINKEL: I'm sorry, wha ?

17 MR. NERON: m kes mention of that, that 18 lsays you know I'm not a negative person, but now I'm s

19 afraid. And they're concerned. Many people are very very 20 c oncerned about where we're going from here. One question 21 that they're asking that no one seems to answer or been 22 a ble to answer yet is how long can we continue to do this 23 a nd remain solvent as a company and me still be employed?

24 MR. HANNON: I just want to clarify one point 25 for the record. You spoke a number of times regarding a l

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND MMSCRIBERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVEL. N.W.

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i

, l 47 1 CH valvo 414.

2 MR, NERON: Oh , 2CH442.

3 MR. HANNON: And that's in Unit 2? l 4 MR. NERON: That's Unit 2. '

5 MR. HANNON: A charging valve that was being  !

6 ferminited -- i 7 MR. NERON: Ferminite, thank you, yes.

8 MR. HANNON: And you were the systems engineer 9 for that system?

10 MR. NERON: Oh, no, no, no. I was in the 11 engineering department and we had knowledge of the 12 multiple activities with respect to the ongoing ferminite l 4

13 attempts.

i 14 As a matter of fact the day we induced the 15 small break LOCA, if you will, both myself, Doug Dempsey, 16 and Jim Tyrol were watching the monitor in Unit 2 17 engineering off' ice. So I had, you know, quite a bit of 18 intermittent firsthand knowledge with respect to the 19 valve.

20 MR. HANNON: But what I was trying to 21 establish for the record, in case somebody has this 22 question when they read through this later, your 23 involvement in that process was not from your job as 24 systems engineer, it was how did you get involved in that 25 activity?

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43 i

1 MR. NERON: I wtn not involved directly in the

{

I 2 repair activity, I was just aware of the repair activities 3

that were going on by virtue of being in the engineering i

4 department. 1 5 MR. HANNON: All right. I think we're ready 6 to wrap up. You were indicating you had some material you 7 wanted to share with us. Is that something you wanted to 8 leave --

9 MR. NERON: Yes.

10 MR. HANNON: --

for our review later?

11 MR. NERON: Right.

12 MR. HANNON: And would you intend for that to 13 be attached to your transcript?

14 MR. NERON: It certainly could be.

i 15 MR. HANNON: Okay. l l

l 16 MR. MOHRWINKEL: How many documents are there i 17 in that package?

18 MR. NERON: I don't have a number.

19 MR. MOHRWINKEL: There are quite a few?

20 MR. NERON: Yes.

21 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Okay.

22 MR. NERON: I'll hand this up to you. I 23 MR. MOHRWINKEL: No, that's fine. We're 24 running very late and if it was only one or two I would 25 have you enter them into the record verbally, but we'll NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRISERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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49 1 1 just cecapt tha packaga as it is. There's just too many 2 to read into the record right now.

3 MR. HANNON: But presumably this material 1

4 would suppleme'nt what you've been putting, giving us on 5 the record --

6  !

MR. NERON: That's correct. I 7 i MR. HANNON: -- this afternoon?

8 MR. NERON: I That's correct.

9 MR. HANNON: Is there anything else that you 10 want to say before we wrap up? By the way I want to 11 comment on your expectation, the way you expressed it, )

12 that many of the employees are looking to the NRC to 13 champion the recovery. My inclination is that that may be 14 an unfair expectation.

15 As Carl pointed out we only have a narrow 16 look, although it's an important look because it is .

17 getting after the human relations aspect of the problem 18 here, so we're going to do our best to put our finger on 19 what can be done to improve that situation. And you have 20 been very helpful with your comments to help us do that.

21 There are other factors in the agency. They are looking 22 at the technical aspects and the continuing inspection 23 program. But I'm frankly not certain that we're in a 24 position to be that champion. We can help, but we're 25 really around the fringes, around the edges. It's got to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCR8ERS 1323 rho 0E ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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I

I 53 1 coma from within.

2 MR. NERON: Right.

3 MR. HANNON: And I think it may be unfair j 4 expectation to'have that. So that would be my reaction to 5 your statement.

6 MR. NERON: I appreciate that. I did not mean l 7

to basically burden you or to say hey guys this is your I B assignment.

And again this is not from me, but based upon  !

9 my discussions with people. Like I said, they're on a 10 merry-go-round now and they're looking for the brass ring, l l

11 if I can state it that way.

12 We're lookino for any kind of help. And I 13 think they're just hoping that which is intrinsic in this u

14 ongoing process because the NRC is involved, I think l

15 they're hoping because of the NRC involvement, because of 16 the NRC oversight, because of their interest that 17 eventually we're going to get there. The question that 18 they have is, can we survive that duration? That may 19 explain it a little bit better.

20 MR. HANNON: That does, that helps.

21 MR. NERON: Okay. I'm sorry.

22 MR. HANNON: Okay, let me thank you, Gary, for 23 your help this afternoon.

i 24 MR. NERON: You're more than welcome.

25 MR. HANNON: You have the document that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANGCRIBERS t323 RNOOE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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3 51  !

1 describac our ravisw process?

2 MR. NERON: Yes.

3 MR. HANNON: And our transcription custodian 4

will be contac' ting you in the near future to have you look 5 through it and make any changes you want to make. So the 1

6 time is --

7 MR. MOHRWINKEL: Well, you did decide that i

j 8 this could go into the public document, your --  !

9 MR. NERON: Certainly.

10 MR. MOHRWINKEL: -- okay.

11 MR. NERON: Certainly.  !

l 12 MR. HANNON: The time is approximately 2:30 13 and we'll conclude. Again, thank you.

14 MR. NERON: Thank you.

15 (Whereupon, at 2:30 p.m., the proceedings in ..

16 the above-entitled interview were concluded.)

17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCFt8 ERB 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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_ _ _. ._. _ _ . _ . _ _ . _ . _ _ _ ~ _ _ . _ _ . _ . _ _. ____._ . _._ _ _ . _ . - . _ . _ _ _.

j CERTIFICATE This is to certify that the attached -

l proceedings before the United States Nuclear l Regulatory Commission in the matter of:

l i

i

Name of Proceeding
INTERVIEW OF GARY NERCN 4

i Docket Number: (NOT ASSIGNED)

Place of Proceeding
WATERFORD, CONNECTICUT

} were held as herein appears, and that this is the original

! transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear i

j Regulatory Commission taken by me and, thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under the direction of the court reporting company, and that the transcript is a true and accurate record of the foregoing proceedings. '

_ _i CHRIS BAKER Official Reporter Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

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