ML20137U635
| ML20137U635 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Millstone  |
| Issue date: | 03/18/1997 |
| From: | NRC OFFICE OF INSPECTION & ENFORCEMENT (IE REGION I) |
| To: | |
| References | |
| NUDOCS 9704170054 | |
| Download: ML20137U635 (160) | |
Text
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1 I
t7 O VERBATIM PROCEEDINGS PD/L NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION D'
PUBLIC FORUM IN THE MATTER OF NORTHEAST UTILITIES, MILLSTONE UNITS 1, 2 AND 3 I
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POST REPORTING SERVICE p HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 9704170054 970318 PDR ADOCK 05000245 T PDR 3
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,s HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS t ) MARCH 18, 1997
%J 1 . . . Verbatim Proceedings of the Public 2 Forum of the United States Nuclear Regulatory 3 Commission in the matter of Northeast Utilities, 4 Millstone Units 1, 2 and 3, held March 18, 1997, at
), 5 7:00 P.M., at the Waterford Town Hall, 15 Rope Ferry 6 Road, Waterford, Connecticut. . .
7 8
9 10 g 11
~
e 12 MR. WAYNE LANNING: Good evening, ladies f ')
U 13 and gentlemen. Welcome. My name is Wayne Lanning.
14 I'm Deputy Director for Inspections in the Special t'
15 Projects Office.
16 This is a meeting between the NRC and 17 you, the members of the public. This meeting is a 18 continuation of our efforts to keep you informed about
- 19 what NRC is doing at Millstone and some results that 20 were achieved and also to solicit your participation in O
. 21 some of the process. Tonight we're looking for your g 22 input on the selection of the Independent Corrective l 23 Action Verification contract at Unit 2. I'll say more 24 about thac later.
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
3 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O x^xen 18, 1997 1 We have a very simple agenda tonight.
. 2 I'll ask the directors for comments. Jacque Durr, who 3 is Branch Chief, will talk about leasing inspection 4 activities. Then Gene Imbro will talk about the 4
5 selection of the ICAVP contract at Unit 2, give you the 6 status of the ICAVP activities. And Phil McKee will 7 talk to us a little bit about what we heard today 8 concerning NU's Employee Concerns Program and the 9 selection of the contractor and some relief from the 10 order. Then, finally, we'll have our general question-11 and-answer session.
1 12 Before I introduce the NRC staff 13 tonight, I want to talk a little bit about -- I've got 14 one administrative item I want to talk about. In 15 response to a request, I'm going to take questions, as 16 we did in the last meeting, after each topic or each 17 agenda item. But I need to ask you to help us out and 18 try to keep focused on the agenda topic.
- 19 It's important to those of us -- those 20 of you who have come here tonight who want to talk O
. 21 about a specific topic, that we make that time b
g 22 available for you to answer -- to ask questions about l 23 that topic.
24 So we're going to once again limit the l O
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 ;
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HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
' hs MARCH 18, 1997 1 discussions just to that topic and really ask for your 2 cooperation until the end. And then if -- after we've 3 covered the agenda topics, we'll then have the general 4 question-and-answer session at the end and there's no 5 holds barred. You can ask any question or provide any 6 comment that you like.
l 7 Okay. To my immediate left is Dr. Bill l 8 Travers. He's the Director of the Special Projects 9 Office. To his left is Gene Imbro, who is the Deputy 10 Director for Independent Corrective Action Process 11 oversight. Next to him is Jacque Durr, the Branch 12 Chief for Inspections. On my immediate right is Phil 13 McKee, who is the Deputy Director for Licensing. Next i 14 to him is Ellen Pastis, who is overseeing the Employee 15 Concerns oversight activities.
16 This meeting is being recorded, for your 17 inf orraation, and that's why you need to speak into a l 18 microphone at the appropriate time.
. 19 Let me share with you some of the 20 highlights from the meeting we had this afternoon with O
. 21 Northeast Utilities. I'll just summarize what I think k
g 22 are the important items that came out of that meeting.
l 23 First, there's another change to the 24 schedule and the approach. NU informed us today that
,O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
5 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O "^aca 18, 1997 1 they have identified Unit 3 as a lead plant for 2 restart. They are also the lead plant for doing the 3 Independent Corrective Action Verification Process.
4 And the schedules for the other two 5 units are being evaluated. And they expect to be in a 6 position to share those with us in a couple of weeks.
7 But it is a change and it says something about schedule 8 slippage there.
9 Each unit provided us status of their 10 activities toward recovery and toward restart. Unit 3 g 11 appeared to be meeting most of their schedule 12 milestones. And as I mentioned, they're the first to 13 be ready for the Independent Corrective Action 14 Verification Process.
15 Unit 2, in addition, gave us a status.
16 They talked about the selection of their contractor.
17 And as I mentioned, Gene Imbro will talk more about l 18 that today.
I
- 19 Unit 1, they appear to be ahead of the 20 other two units in terms of modifications that have to O
= 21 be done prior to restart.
I g 22 Overall, we talked a little bit about l 23 the corrective action program process. I think it's 24 fair to summarize that in a single word, broken. They O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
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6 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
() MARCH 18, 1997 1 have just instituted a procedure to improve the 2 corrective action process. They still have a lot of 3 work to do to demonstrate that they have affected some 4 corrective action processes there.
5 Mr. Gable gave us a discussion of the 6 Northeast Employee Concerns Program and the contractor 7 today. And Phil McKee will talk more about that this .
8 evening.
9 With that, do we have anything else?
10 Okay. With that, we'll let Jacque Durr talk about the g 11 inspection activities. l c
12 MR. JACQUE DURR: Good evening. I see
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13 some new faces here. Let me give you a brief overview 14 of our inspection program because I'm sure not 15 everybody is familiar wit! Lt.
16 The NRC has assigned Millstone normally 17 six inspectors, two for each unit, a Senior Resident l 18 Inspector and a Resident Inspector. And if I can draw I 19 an analogy between our inspectors and the medical 20 profession, our Senior Residents and Resident O
< 21 Inspectors are general practitioners, if you will. And l
g 22 in the region we have to support them specialists in l 23 specific areas of mechanical engineering or electrical 24 engineering, that kind of thing.
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1 7
-HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
, () MARCH 18, 1997 l 1 So the six inspectors that are normally 2 at Millstone 1, 2 and 3 do inspections and write 3 inspections reports normally every six to eight weeks.
4 And I'm sure that most of you haven't had the 5 opportunity to read the reports because they generally 6 run the length of 80 to 90 pages and they're probably 7 dry as dust to the uninitiated.
8 But let me give you P. brief overview of 9 what came out of our last set of inspections. The 10 cover letter -- for those of you that are not familiar, g 11 when we find an issue that does not meet a regulatory 12 requirement -- and regulatory requirements are things
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13 like the license that we issue. The things that are in 14 that license and the technical specifications which is 15 appended to that are requirements. They have to comply 16 with those. The Code of Federal Regulations are 17 requirements.
18 And in the case of Millstone, we've
- 19 issued two sets, two orders, one for the Employees 20 Concerns Program and one for the Independent C
. 21 Verification Program. Those are requirements. So, by I b I g 22 law, they must comply and, if they don't, then we can '
l 23 take legal action.
24 So this report discusses several O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
8 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 4
()' MARCH 18, 1997 '
1 violations. We note that in this report most of those 1
l 2 violations are not of recent vintage. That is they 1
3 were things that occurred in the past, have just been 4 identified and brought to light. So they're not recent j 5 events.
4.
! 6 And I would also say are issues that 7 appear to be recurrent, significant challenge to ,
8 management is the resolution of identified deficiencies 9 in a timely manner. And that is essentially they have '
10 found things -- they found a lot of things. And
- g. 11 because they found so many things, they haven't been 12 able to properly disposition in a timely manner.
)
13 They are required to report to us 14 certain things under the Code of Federal Regulations.
15 And so that's what we're really telling them; is that 16 they need to disposition those things in a timely 17 fashion so they can ensure that they meet the reporting l
18 requirements because there's a time clock on those
- 19 things.
20 And it also mentioned a little progress )
O l
= 21 in implementing corrective actions for the enforcement l 1 l g 22 actions listed on our 11/13/96 letter. '
k' 23 I want to give you a brief overview of 24 what these violations are. And if you have any POST PEPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i
i
9 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
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siRCH 18, 1997 1 questions, I'll be happy to answer them. l 2 First of all, we issued in this report 1
3 three violations. We issued a violation concerning l
4 security. It was unauthorized entry into the technical 3 5 area. What really occurred was somebody was -- that 6 worked at the site was laid off, came back. They 7 thought their badge was still good, tried to enter the 8 area. One of her co-workers assisted her to enter on 9 her badge, which is illegal. And consequently, they
. 10 were cited for that because it's an unauthorized entry.
11 A technical specification violation 12 dealing with organizational changes. Because of the 13 major management changes that have taken place within 14 Northeast Utilities in the last year, they have made 4
15 assignments to the site and restructured the 16 organization. And there are certain positions within 5 17 the organization that are defined in this license that 18 we're talking about, like the Executive Vice President, 2 19 which is the Chief Nuclear Officer, and then the Senior 20 Vice President for the site. Those positions were not O
. 21 either filled or they were more or less abolished for b
g 22 some period of time. And they are listed in the l 23 technical specifications. They must comply or change -
24 - get an amendment to the license.
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
I 10 l HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS f) MARCH 18, 1997 1 And lastly, violations identified 2 associated with failure to calibrate an ionization ;
3 chamber used to monitor vermiluminescent dosimeter dose 4 rates. !
1 5 Then we also issued what we call l 6 apparent violations. And the reason we call them 7 apparent violations is they rise to a level that 8 potentially has what we call escalated enforcement.
9 And the escalated enforcement means sanctions from the 10 NRC, such as civil penalties, may be associated with 11 them.
~
12 So we call these apparent violations
()3 13 because generally what we do is have an enforcement 14 conference such as we had back in December with the 15 utility where some 60 to 70 violations were discussed 16 and were in the current process for issue. So these 17 were also called apparent violations.
l 18 And one of them was Unit 1, failure to 1
- 19 report issues to the NRC promptly. And that's what the 20 reporting requirements that we were talking about O
. 21 earlier where they have to report within a timely I
22 fashion. And we found at least five instances where g
l 23 that did not occur.
24 Unit 1 again, failed to staff the POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
11 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
() MARCH 18, 1997 1 Millstone Unit 1 Director's position with a qualified 2 individual, contrary to technical specifications. The l 3 Unit Director has to have certain qualifications. And 4 we found in this particular cafe that that -- that he l l
5 didn't have it. )
l 6 Unit 1 again, failed to perform a 50.59 7 evaluation for the emergency -- air start system, check 8 valves that had the internals removed. Now, 50.59 is 9 kind of what this Independent Corrective Action 10 Verification Program is all about.
g 11 The utility -- the regulations say that
{) 12 you can make changes to the facility as long as it 13 doesn't violate certain things. As long as it doesn't 14 require a change to the technical specification, they 15 can do it and it doesn't involve an under-review safety 16 questions. They can make changes and they don't have 17 to tell us, except once a year when they send in a l l 18 listing of these changes that they've made.
19 What we found was they had made a change 20 and they didn't do it with this 50.59 review. They O
< 21 didn't do the safety evaluation to determine whether I
$ 22 they could make the change or not.
3 h 23 And, lastly, at Unit 1, inaccurate 24 information regarding the completion of --8913 issues. I A
U POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
I 12 fs HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
() MARCH 18, 1997 1 We found in locations --
in fact, it's in the 2 enforcement conference that we had back in December.
3 There have been numerous occasions where we've found 4 that the utility had provided us with inaccurate l
5 inf ornation.
4 6 One of the cornerstones of the 7 regulatory process is you have to be able to trust the 8 utility and you have to be able to trust the 9 information that they provide you because, as we've 10 said in the past and still remains true, we have -- we g 11 don't have enough resources to inspect everything.
12 Ergo, there has to be a certain amount of trust.
- {}
13 And so any time that we find that 14 they've provided us with inaccurate information, we're 15 going to issue a violation.
16 We found that at Unit 2 corrective 17 actions were incomplete for a flash main bearing on the l 18 emergency diesel generator because of insufficient
- 19 lubrication. Flash, for those of you who are i
f 20 mechanics, it's a light bearing. The bearing had
- O
. 21 insufficient lubrication because of the way they g 22 initially started the engine. And it would start up h 23 without proper lubrication and it caused the bearings 24 to whiten this piece.
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
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i 13 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O MARCH 18, 1997 1 They knew about it before and didn't 2 really take the appropriate corrective actions. And l 3 they started the engine a month later and almost 4 totally destroyed it. So we've given them a violation !
5 for that.
6 Unit 3 had inadequate response to the 7 NRC in Information Note CD-24, generic letter 9150, and i i
8 that resulted --
we sent out information notices ;
9 telling the utilities that we've identified what we 10 call generic issues that apply to more than one plant.
11 It's kind of like a recall notice for your car.
12 General Motors figures out that the air bags are 13 deficient and they'll send out a recall notice, i
i 14 Well, we send out these notices to the 15 utility to put them -- to advise that there are 16 deficient conditions and they need to take a look at 17 these things to make sure it doesn't apply to their I 18 plant.
1
- 19 Well, we told them about these air 20 valves and a potential deficiency with them and they 0
. 21 didn't take the proper corrective acti.on, to put the I
g 22 proper corrective actions. And this resulted in 48
'l 23 solar -- operated valves being potentially subjected to 24 air pressure greater that their design rating.
O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
14 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS Os MARCH 18, 1997 <
1 Unit i violation again, apparent 2 violation, and it's the event response team performed 3 in response to quality assessment services audit was 4 narrowly focused and lacked substance. When they --
5 the Code of Federal Regulations requires that you 6 identify --
if you identify a deficient condition, 7 something that's not appropriate, it requires that you 8 evaluate it and take appropriate action to ensure that 9 it doesn't recur. The root cause analyses and these 10 kinds of things. We found that they really didn't do a g 11 good job on that.
12 Another Unit 1 apparent violation was --
13 we use acronyms left and right. IGSCC. Because it's a 14 mouthful. It's inner granular stress corrosion 15 cracking. The reactor coolant pressure boundary piping 16 is made out of stainless steel in some cases.
17 Stainless steel, contrary to popular belief, is not l 18 impervious to everything and it will develop a crack I; 19 mechanism that can drive all the way through the pipe 20 wall. And these are very thick pipe walls, up to an O
< 21 inch thick. And the piping in Millstone Unit 1 is said 0
g 22 to hold inner granule stress corrosion cracking.
l 23 The NRC and the industry identified this 24 back in the 70's. And most reactors in the United O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
l 15 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()
j MARCH 18, 1997 1 States have replaced that piping. Millstone is one of 2 the few, two -- one of two that I know of that has not 1
3 replaced that piping and they're on an accelerated l 4 program to do examinations to that piping.
5 We found that they have done the 6 examinations as they were directed to and they 7 identified what we call indications in that piping.
8 And they talked themselves out of the fact that it was 9 cracked and they thought it was what we call john-drew 10 or some other condition by doing an additional 11 examination when, in reality, it was cracking. So
(~) 12 we've cited them for that. I V
13 And, lastly, Unit 1, more inaccurate 14 information regarding the status of the ratlace 15 facility. They told -- they sent us a letter and they 16 said, "We did a root cause analysis back in December" 17 and we found out that they really hadn't done a root I 18 cause analysis until January. But they sent us a
. 19 letter in December that said that they'd done it. So 20 it's obvious that it couldn't have been true at the O
. 21 time.
g 22 Now, lastly, let me discuss -- we've l 23 issued a confirmatory action letter, among the list of 24 things that we have. But a confirmatory action letter O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
16 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
- O a^aca 18, 1997 1 is one notch below kind of issuing an order which has 2 status.
3 A confirmatory action letter is where 4 you've identified a situation that doesn't -- hasn't 4
5 quite risen to a level where we can issue an order.
6 But we send a letter back to the utility to establish 7 on the docket commitments that they make that we will 8 hold them to.
9 Now, behind every confirmatory action 10 letter, if they don't comply with that, there's the 11 potential that we would issue an order. So -- and the 12 confirmatory action letter back in December -- the 13 utility periodically sends their licensed operators 14 through training and they also send them through for an ;
I 15 operator to become a Senior Reactor Operator. He has l i
16 to go take an examination. And the NRC monitors these l l
17 examinations.
l 18 Back in December, the Unit 1 sent seven,
. 19 I think it was, operators for upgrade to Senior Reactor j 20 Operator and six of the seven failed the examination.
O
. 21 And e. hat -- the utility did an event response team to g 22 find out what happened. What went wrong? And in doing l 23 so, that event response team identified that the 24 information that was supplied to the agency on the O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
i 17 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 3
() MARCH 18, 1997 1 applications was incomplete and, in some cases, 2 inaccurate.
. 3 Now, what had happened -- let me give 4 you an example. You're supposed to have 512 hours of l 5 on-the-job training under the supervision as part of 6 that upgrade training. Well, some people had 504 7 hours8.101852e-5 days <br />0.00194 hours <br />1.157407e-5 weeks <br />2.6635e-6 months <br />. They'd miscounted the hours. They're supposed 8 to have five manipulations of reactivity. That's 9 actually manipulating the reactor itself.
10 There was some question about how they g 11 counted each one of those manipulations and whether
/~S 12 some of them were double-counted, if you will.
U 13 So there's questions concerning just how 14 accurate that information was and are these people 15 truly qualified. So the utilities expanded their 16 investigation of this to see how widespread it was.
17 They've also identified it not only affected Millstone 18 1, 2 and 3, but Haddam Neck because it's all part of 19 the same training program. And they withdrew the 20 applications for the seven reactor operators that were O
. 21 to be upgraded.
8 j 22 Now in that confirmatory action letter l 23 there are nine stated commitments that we essentially 24 wrote back to them. One, they will submit a complete O POST REPORTING SERVICE' HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i
18 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS MARCH 18, 1997 1 corrective action plan, including a schedule for 2 addressing each of the identified IRT, inspection 3 response team, witnesses and a review of the extent of 4 the problems and root causes for the training area to 4
5 the NRC staff by April 2, 1997 as part of the i 6 corrective action plan, clearly defining roles and 7 responsibilities for completing NRC 398. That's the 8 form that they supplied the inaccurate information on.
9 Complete corrective actions for the 10 Millstone 1 LOIT, which is the license to operator
.g 11 initial training, When you want to become a reactor 12 operator, there's initial training that you have to go 13 through. LOUT, which is license to operator upgrade
. 14 training. That's if you want to become, once you're a 15 reactor operator and you want to become a Senior 16 Reactor Operator, you get an upgrade training.
17 Complete corrective actions for l 18 Millstone 1 LOIT and LOUT program prior to restarting
- i
- 19 respective classes. So before they do any more 4
20 training, r
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= 21 Complete corrective actions for b
g 22 Millstone 2 LOIT --
that's the initial training --
l 23 prior to restarting LOIT training classes.
24 Complete corrective actions for POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
19 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS I)
(s MARCH 18, 1997 1 Millstone Unit 3 LOIT and LOUT programs prior to NRC 2 examinations of the current class.
3 Conduct a thorough review of the 4 Millstone 3 LOIT program against the accredited program 5 requirements prior to submittal of the license 6 application to the NRC.
7 Six, forward the scope of NRC Form 396 8 medical certifications process review and its expected 9 completion dates for Millstone 1, 2 and 3 and Haddam 10 Neck, Plan A, April 2, 1997.
11 Seven, submit the results of the HNP
- g 12 data review -- acronyms again --
of the LOIT, LOUT
{
13 programs to the NRC by April 2, 1997.
14 Eight, submit the results of initial 15 reviews of additional classes on all the units to the 1
16 NRC by March 15, 1997.
17 And, nine, complete specific reviews of 18 the HNP and LOIT license operator requalification 19 training program by April 4, 1997.
20 So that's what we found. They're in the O
< 21 process of completing these actions. And there will be I
g 22 more to come on that.
l 23 Okay. Do you want to take questions 24 now?
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20 l HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 4
() MARCH 18, 1997 1 MR. LANNING: Questions? Anybody have 2 questions? Yes.
3 MR. DON DELCORE: Do you want me to sit ,
1 4 there? I 5 MR. LANNING: Please. Use the 6 microphone.
4 7 MR. DELCORE: I presume we were talking 8 about Inspection Report 9609.
9 MR. DURR: That's correct.
10 MR. DELCORE: And you characterized g 11 three violations?
() 12 13 MR. DURR: Yes.
MR. DELCORE: But, in fact, there were 14 about ten. Correct? There were seven that weren't --
15 MR. DURR: There's --
16 MR. DELCORE: That were not issued 17 notice of violations.
I 18 MR. DURR: There was three violations
- 19 and seven apparent violations, yes.
20 MR. DELCORE: Well, apparent violations O
. 21 are still violations, though. Right?
I g 22 MR. DURR: Yes. But they are pre -- a l 23 final decision has not been rendered on them at this 24 point in time. So what it means is that the NRC will POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
21 HEARING 03: MILLSTONE UNITS O 1^aca 18, 1997 1 take under advisement these issues and they may --
2 upper management still has the prerogative of making a 3 determination of whether there are, in fact, violations 4 or not. And then additional action will be issued on 5 that. So that's why they're called, quote, " apparent 6 violations" vice a violation. We differentiate.
7 MR. DELCORE: No. I understand that. l 8 But they apparently were put back with another 9 enforcement conference, from what I could read here.
10 MR. DURR: Yes. The December -- that's y 11 correct. Some of those issues will be rolled into the
() 12 December 5 enforcement package where we have like 60 or 13 70 issues. These are examples of the same kind of 14 thing. And so right now, the management is under l l
15 consideration of tying these things into that same l I
16 package. I 17 MR. DELCORE: For adjudging how much l 18 civil penalty or how much --
- 19 MR. DURR: Right. That's correct.
20 MR. DELCORE: Okay. Okay. Let's go O
= 21 back to the violations that you did document. It looks g 22 like two of them were violations of procedures. And l 23 I'm sure that, at least from my recollection of reading 24 at least this year's inspection reports, that's not the O POST REPORTING SERVICE -
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22 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
() MARCH 18, 1997 1 first time that they've had a violation of their 2 Technical Specification 6.8.1 and your Regulatory Guide 3 1.33.
4 MR. DURR: That's correct.
5 MR. DELCORE: Why were they issued a 4
6 Level 4?
4 7 MR. DURR: Why were they -- I'm sorry.
8 Why were they issued a Level 4?
9 MR. DELCORE: Yes. Yes. They had -- in I 10 this particular inspection report, they had two
- g 11 violations of failure to follow a procedure that I 12 could see. And it's probably not less than the tenth
- {)
]
13 or twentieth time this year that they've not followed a 3
14 procedure,
, 15 MR. DURR: Well, I don't --
- 16 MR. DELCORE
- Yet, they've been issued a 17 Level 4.
4 l 18 MR. DURR: There haven't been 10 or 20 1
19 in 1997.
i t 20 MR. DELCORE: No?
4 0
< = 21 MR. DURR: Not in 1997. Maybe 19 --
g 22 MR. DELCORE: No. 1996. Yes.
l 23 MR. DURR: 1997 has --
24 MR. DELCORE: Well, this is a 1996
('T U
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l 23 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
() MARCH 18, 1997 1 report.
2 MR. DURR: That's correct.
i i 3 MR. DELCORE: Okay. So why wouldn't you l 4 not accelerate those?
5 MR. DURR: Because they -- what you do 6 is -- the process is -- let me explain to everybody the
! 7 process. Once --
once we determine that it's a 8 violation, then you have to go through the NRC 9 enforcement policy to determine whether it's a Level 4, l
10 3, 2, 1, 1 being the most severe and Level 4 being the g 11 least severe, or even less than that is a non-cited c
(~T 12 violation which we can identify a violation which we V
13 don't take any action on because it's really -- I don't 14 know how else to characterize it, but --
15 Once we get into that process, it's run 16 through the criteria in the enforcement policy which is 17 in what we call a nuke record which is a document that 18 we issue, 1600, which provides the basis for how we 19 will assess the severity level of these penalties.
20 And so these rose in management's O
< 21 judgment to a Level 4 severity.
1 S 22 MR. DELCORE: I was just curious how you
, s l 23 go to that when we've had so many technical l
! 24 specification failure to follow procedure violations
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POST REPORTING SERVICE I HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 1
24 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
() MARCH 18, 1997 1 this year. In other words, what you told me before we 2 you took these seven apparent violations and you put
, 3 them in with the previous enforcement conference and 4 then you're going to weigh them as to what the total i 5 civil penalty will be or what level violation.
6 MR. DURR: Yes.
J 7 MR. DELCORE: But looking back at the 8 last year, at the 10 or 20 that we had, we're not doing 9 that. I wonder why that is.
10 MR. DURR: Looking back --
g 11 MR. DELCORE: Well, looking back at the t
{} 12 13 10 or 20 year, we're violations that we've had of not putting procedures this them in a pool and deciding 14 maybe we should accelerate it to a Level 3 to maybe 15 send a message that we don't want them to violate 16 procedures any more.
17 MR. DURR: Well, I think -- I think if l l 18 you look at the enforcement package that we discussed I 19 on December 5, that message is in there. It's in that
!t 20 package.
O
. 21 MR. DELCORE: Not following procedures?
g 22 MR. DURR: Right. Yes. The report 5
l 23 cited violations in there, yes.
24 MR. DELCORE: Then why wouldn't these be POST REPORTING SERVICE EAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
25 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS I MARCH 18, 1997 1 included in that package, too, then?
2 MR. DURR: Because we didn't believe --
3 management didn't believe that they rose to that level 4 that they warranted an escalated enforcement.
5 MR. DELCORE: I'm just trying to point 6 out the variations that we see in these inspection 7 reports almost constantly.
~
8 MR. LANNING: Jacque, let me add to the )
9 discussion here. The enforcement policy which contains 10 our guidance for escalating, for example, 4's to 3's 11 can be done. But it.'s usually -- it's complex. But, 12 simply stated, it has to be essentially the same root 13 causes. In other words, there are many ways to violate 14 procedures, for example. And so in order to escalate 15 several 4's into a 3, you need the same root cause 16 essentially is part of the guidance. i 17 And so in the judgment of the l 18 enforcement panel, these really didn't rise to that i 19 occasion, had different root causes or they were just 20 violations of failure to follow procedures.
O
. 21 MR. DELCORE: It almost seems like, to g 22 me, that somebody is not going back and looking at l 23 them. That's what it really looks like to me.
24 MR. LANNING: I can assure you as part l'~T POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
. = . _ - -- - . . . _ - . -
l 26 i HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()
i MARCH 18, 1997 l
1 of the enforcement panel we go back and look at 2 previous history.
3 MR. DELCORE: Next meeting, if we could 4 talk about this again, I'll bring up the 10 or 20 that 5 are there and we'll see how closely they look at one 1
6 another. '
7 Thank you.
8 MR. LANNING: Okay.
9 MR. DURR: Any other questions?
10 Thank you.
g 11 MR. LANNING: Okay. Mr. Imbro will now
- 1 12 summarize today's discussion about the ICAVP and the 13 selection of the contractor at Unit 2. )
14 MR. IMBRO: One of the things discussed l 15 today by Mr. Kenyon was the fact that the licensee has 16 somewhat altered their schedule and the fact that 17 someone moved away from the parallel approach in some -
18 -
in a manner and that designated Unit 3 as lead unit
- 19 for ICAVP. And the ICAVP for Unit 3 will -- the date 20 remains the same as previously advertised as May 8 as O
. 21 of now.
I g 22 Unit 1 ICAVP was proposed to start on l 23 April 10. But that has been -- that has been delayed.
24 And so no schedule has been announced yet for Unit 2 O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
. --_- - .... ... - - -.- . - .-. ..- - ~....- -. - - .-. _
- i. 1 f
l 27 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O a^aca 18, 1997 1 and Unit 1 in terms of ICAVP, except that they will 2 follow the Unit 3 ICAVP, which again is supposed to 3 start on May 8. j 4 Mr. Kenyon also stated that l they still ;
5 intend to hold reasonably close to the projected dates 6 for restart, although they would be delayed slightly J
7 for the units. And it's still advertised that one l l
8 unit,.not saying which, would start probably the third l 9 quarter of this year, in his estimation, the company's 10 estimation, one would start in the fourth quarter of 11 this year and another would start in the first quarter 12 of next year. We feel that they have a lot of work to 13 do to get there. But, anyway, that is the schedule 14 that they're advertising right now. And, clearly, we 15 need to do a lot of oversight between now and then.
16 Again, we're not going to be driven by 17 that schedule necessarily. We need to do what we --
18 well, whr.t we have to do to assure that the plants,
. 19 when they are started, if they are started, are started 20 in a safe manner and comply with the regulations. So
'O
< 21 if we can accomplish that within the schedule, fine.
I 22 And if we can't, then we'll have to revisit that.
- g. ;
l' 23 There was -- let me, I guess, talk a 24 little bit about the status of selection of -- approval O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
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l 28 i HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
() MARCH 18, 1997 l
1 of Sergeant & Lundy for Unit 1 and Unit 3 ICAVP j 1
2 contractor. As you all -- most of you have been here 1 3 before. Sergeant & Lundy is proposed to do the ICAVP 4 for Unit 1 and Unit 3. We're still evaluating the 5 submittal. We've asked --
wrote a letter to the 6 licensee, oh, probably early -- it went out earlier 7 this week or late last week -- asking some additional 8 questions on independence.
9 The questions focused on two primary 10 areas. One was the question regarding restriction of g 11 future work. The licensee proposed that the future t
12 work would be restricted at Millstone. We felt that 13 was not appropriate or not adeqdate. We suggested that 14 Sergeant & Lundy be restricted for one year from any 15 work at NU after the completion of the ICAVP. So 16 that's one of the issues that the licensee needs to 17 respond to.
I 18 The other issue was concerning again I. 19 independence, but ownership interest. In the 20 information that the licensee had sent us previously, O
. 21 there were statements that while Sergeant & Lundy as an
- l g 22 entity didn't own NU stock, their retirement plan may l 23 havo owned or may own NU stock, and also the thrift 24 savings plan that the employees invest in may own NU O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
29 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS t( ) MARCH 18, 1997 1 stock. And, again, the information that they had 2 provided was that these are managed -- the retirement 3 plan is managed by a trustee, so they don't really have i 4 control over -- Sergeant & Lundy doesn't have control 5 over what's bought and sold. But we still felt that we 6 needed more information as to how the money was 7 invested and whether or not they did own NU stock. l 8 And, again, we're awaiting a response on that.
9 So we still haven't made a decision yet 10 on the approval of Sergeant & Lundy. So we're waiting g 11 for that information.
12 In terms of Unit 2, a presentation was
}
13 made on the Unit 2 ICAVP proposal by Northeast to have 14 Parsons do the ICAVP for Unit 2. Part of the meeting i
15 tonight is to solicit input from you all on that.
16 But let me go through a little bit what 17 was mentioned today. Again, Unit 2 proposal for I 18 Parsons was submitted on the docket, I believe on the 1 19 14th of February. It's been in the PDR, local PDR. So 20 I assume you've had a chance to look at that.
O
< 21 A couple of things that I'll go through g 22 is that --
just to summarize what the licensee l 23 mentioned today. Parsons has no financial interest in 24 NU and neither they nor their retirement plan was (G
_/
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
- MARCH 18, 1997 1 stated has a financial interest in NU or any ownership
< 2 interest in NU. :
3 Parsons is doing no current work at NU.
- 4 But they have done previous work for the licensee.
5 Approximately five million dollars' work over the last i g 6 ten years. Out of that 500 million -- or five million I 7 -- excuse me -- five million dollars, about 460,000 of 8 that was nuclear-related. The rest is fossil i
9 transmission work, you know, power lines, et cetera.
l 10 And Parsons -- to put that in context, 1
g 11 basically a billion dollar a year company. That's how i (~5 12 much their revenue is. So it's a small amount.
k_)
! 13 And, again, Parsons also is doing no 14 work -- they're not connected with NRC in any way.
j 15 And, also, the team members, of course, are independent 16 in terms of they have not worked -- I think only one of 17 the proposed team members worked for a brief period, if 18 I remember correctly, on Unit 1 and there was no work
'? 19 on Unit 2. But that's something we need to evaluate.
20 But primarily, the balance of the team, which is O
= 21 roughly about 40 people, has not had any connection i
22 with Northeast.
2 23 So that's essentially a summary. We j 24 asked additional questions for Northeast to
( POST REPORTING SERVICE s
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4
31 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
() MARCH 18, 1997
- 1 characterize some of the previous nuclear work that was 2 done. The description in the submittal is somewhat '
3 sketchy. And they would indicate or could indicate 4 that they may have -- they, Parsons, may have been 5 involved with some programs, for example, energy line 6 break and MIV's, I believe. In any case, the licensee 7 is going to give us additional information. Although, 8 they did indicate that it was more of a, I guess, a 9 flow chart review in that they provided guidance, I 10 think, as to what was typically done in the industry g 11 rather than creating a program for the licensee, 4
r
{} 12 13 described how a program would typically be created, if I understand that correctly. So they didn't really 14 create programs for the licensee to use but indicated 15 how programs could be constructed.
16 And in any case,~ they're going to 1
17 provide additional information on that to us and then l 18 we will further evaluate that.
' I 19 So that's kind of a synopsis of where Ir 20 NRC is and where the licensee is in terms of ICAVP.
O
- 21 Are there any other -- any questions or i
g 22 any input on the selection of Parsons?
l 23 Since you had a chance, Don, let me talk I
24 to Paul Blanche first.
, /~T
' %.)
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
h 32 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
() MARCH 18, 1997 1 MR. PAUL BLANCHE: Yes. I'm Paul 2 Blanche. I'm here speaking as a member of the public 3 but also because I was part of the NEAC sub-committee 4 reviewing the ICAVP process with respect to Sergeant &
i 5 Lundy. And I could see inconsistency here in the 6 evaluation criteria. And I refer to Slide -- I think 7 it's 50, which is financial and organizational 8 independence that was presented this afternoon. Gene, 9 I think you just went over this.
10 One of the problems I had with Sergeant g 11 & Lundy is that they were doing quite a bit of work, '
r 12 similar work, for the NRC, similar ICAVP processes.
13 That was not considered a negative for Sergeant & Lundy 14 at least in the NRC's evaluation process. But now I 15 see the presentation this afternoon where it says 16 Parsons.is doing no work for the NRC.
17 It seems to be inconsistent criteria in l 18 the evaluation of the ICAVP contractor where in one I 19 case, because they're doing no work for the NRC, well, 20 that's good'; in another case with Sergeant & Lundy,
-O -
_. 21 they're doing a lot of work for the NRC, but that's not l 1
g ,, 22 mentioned. So it seems to be somewhat inconsistent j s
l 23 here as far as the evaluation criteria.
24 DR. BILL TRAVERS: Maybe I can take a
^
POST REPORTING SERVICE
- HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
33 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O x^aca 18 1997 1 shot at that, Paul Blanche.
2 MR. BLANCHE: Okay.
3 DR. TRAVERS: They didn't say that this 4 was evaluation criteria. I don't know if it was or it 5 wasn't. They pointed it out. And I suspect -- and I 6 don't know -- that one of the reasons they may have 7 pointed this out is because in the case of Sergeant &
8 Lundy it has been an issue. People have raised it as 9 one issue of concern that we had discussed.
10 I suspect -- and I was surprised to see 11 it on this slide as well. I was, frankly, surprised to I 12 see the utility point this out. It's our issue really 13 in the context of Sergeant & Lundy or anyone else doing 14 work for us and whether or not that should be viewed in 15 perspective as a conflict in any sense.
16 So we'd have to ask Northeast as to 4 17 whether or not they used it as an evaluation criteria.
l 18 They didn't say they did in this meeting. But perhaps I- 19 they did. Ultimately, though, we have to approve the ir 20 organization. And that aspect of what they've listed o
. 21 on this slide is not a criteria that we have in the I
g 22 order as stated.
l 23 MR. BLANCHE: You know, it just gives 24 the appearance that they're pointing out with Parsons O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
t 34 7- HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS (f MARCH 18, 1997 1 that there is no conflict because Parsons is doing no 2 work for the NRC but, yet, there may be a conflict with l
3 Sergeant & Lundy. That's what I want to point out --
4 DR. TRAVERS: It certainly could lead 5 you there.
6 MR. BLANCHE: Okay. That was my 7 question. Thank you.
8 DR. TRAVERS: I was surprised to see it 9 as well.
10 MR. BLANCHE: Okay. Thanks. l l
lg 11 MR. IMBRO: There were some other hands.
12 Don?
(O_)
13 MS. ROSEMARY BASSILAKIS: I have a 1
14 question.
J 15 MR. IMBRO: All right. Well -- all 16 right. Let Mr. Delcore --
17 MS. BASSILAKIS: Oh. I'm sorry.
'! 18 MR. IMBRO: --
have his turn and then 1
- 19 you can come up, Rosemary. !
20 MR. DELCORE: Don Delcore from l0 l . 21 Uncasville. This is with regard to the Unit 3 ICAVP b
g 22 readiness that was discussed today. I'd like to be ll 23 sure that I have this correct. But I think at one time 24 we got some information when you discussed the ICAVP, A
V POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
l
35 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
'( ) MARCH 18, 1997 l
1 the configuration management program kind of drove the I 2 whole system and that there were some Maintenance Rules l
3 1, 2 and 3. i l
4 MR. IMBRO: Yes. l 5 MR. DELCORE: And from that j 6 configuration management and those maintenance rules, 7 we derived safety significant systems and risk 8 significant systems and then a combination of risk 9 and/or safety significance, which essentially assembled 10 the systems that we really needed to take a look at.
o 11 MR. IMBRO: That's right. The Group 1
~
r3 12 and Group 2 systems.
(_/ ,
13 MR. DELCORE: And back in the old --
14 yes. Right. Maintenance Rules 1 and 2 systems. Back 15 in the old days when we first started talking about 16 ICAVP for Unit 3 and trying to get ready to pick a 4 17 contractor, we were talking about 83 systems.
l 18 MR. IMBRO: That's right.
1
- 19 MR. DELCORE: And now we're talking 20 about 36, it looks like.
O
, 21 MR. IMBRO: No. Well, let me explain 22 that because I think I can clarify. 83 are the number l 23 of population of Group 1 and Group 2. So there are 83 24 Group 1 and Group 2 systems. What the order said was O
V POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
36 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS MARCH 18, 1997 1 that --
2 A VOICE: For Unit 3.
3 MR. IMBRO: For Unit 3. The order said 4 that the ICAVP could start when half of the Group 1 5 systems were finished CMP. And the licensee was 6 willing to attest that they identified all the 7 problems. So the discovery phase was done.
8 There are roughly 36 or some-odd, 37, 9 Group 1 systems. So the number that you heard today, 10 18 --
11 MR. DELCORE: Right.
12 MR. IMBRO: -- was half. So that would l 13 say at that point we would select or we could select up 14 to three systems to have the ICAVP start. But we 15 wouldn't select the last system, the last of the four.
16 But that's where the 18 came from, was half of the 17 Group 1 systems for Unit 3.
l 18 MR. DELCORE: I'm not asking where the
- I
. 19 18 came from. I understand that. What I'm confused 20 about is what happened to the remainder of the O
. 21 difference between the 36, which was the total 100 l
g 22 percent of the 18, and the original 83, which were l 23 considered risk -- safety or risk significant systems 24 that everybody wanted to take a look at. It looks to O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
37 l HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
() MARCH 18, 1997 3 me like we've whittled down the original 83 systems to 2 36, Gene.
3 MR. IMBRO: That's our understanding is l 4 that the licensee is complete the CMP in the same 5 fachion for the 83 systems as they will for the 18 to 6 start the ICAVP. In fact, our process will assure it j 7 because we're going to not pick the last system for 8 ICAVP review until they have completed all 83 systems.
9 MR. DELCORE: So what you're saying to i
10 me is that they're all systems that need to be looked 11 at in terms of risk or safety significance. But we're
~
r' 12 only going to look at those in Maintenance Group 1,
\
13 which total about 36, and we're going to look at -- as 14 soon as they have 50 percent ready, we're going to look 15 at three of those.
16 MR. IMBRO: We could look at up to three 17 of those or even none, depending on -- if they weren't l 18 the systems that we felt were appropriate for the ICAVP 19 to look at in terms of, you know, very small-scope i
t 20 systems, for example, we may delay starting the ICAVP O
. 21 until they provided an adequate sample for us to choose 22 from.
g l 22 MR. DELCORE: Let's say out of the 36 24 that you don't have an adequate sample that you feel is O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
1 38 i
HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
]_ () MARCH 18, 1997 j 1 there. Are you going to go to the other 40-some-odd?
2 MR. IMBRO: We'd probably select some of l
- 3 the systems from the Group 2 systems anyway. So the ;
J i
4 answer is probably yes. But I believe that from the 36
- 5 Group 1 systems, some of those are reasonable ones to 6 choose.
7 MR. DELCORE: Then I'm still confused as !
8 to why we eliminated the Group 2 systems?
i !
j 9 MR. IMBRO: Well, we didn't. I mean I'm l f
! 10 just saying that the ICAVP can start when half of the I g 11 Group 1 systems are done, at the earliest.
12 MR. DELCORE: Okay. !
13 MR. IMBRO: Now, we haven't really i
- 14 eliminated the rest of the systems. In fact -- l l
! 15 MR. DELCORE: That I understand.
i 16 MR. IMBRO: -- when we select the last f 17 system, it will probably be one of the others.
+
'I 18 MR. DELCORE: Okay. Then I understand.
j I
. 19 What I was trying to find out is whether we're still 1-20 looking at 83 systems. !
O
. 21 MR. IMBRO: Yes, we are.
,g. 22 MR. DELCORE: Okay.
Il 23 MR. IMBRO: Yes.
24 MR. DELCORE:
) So we're still doing some
- C) POST REPORTING SERVICE 5 HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
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1 i
l' 39 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()
i MARCH 18, 1997 -
1 l 1 four percent of the total? In other words, you guys ,
i.
2 are going to look at two, one of which will be one of l 3 the four ICAVP's --
4 MR. IMBRO: One which they look at, one
! 5 they don't look at. And one that's -- ,
l 6 MR. DELCORE: And one that you guys are {
i j 7 going to look at. And they're going to look at four. !
8 So four and one is five systems out of 83.
t
! 9 MR. IMBRO: That's right. ,
i j 10 MR. DELCORE: Okay. So that answers 11 g that question. And I think that's all I have.on ICAVP.
12 MR. IMBRO: But you can't really -- let
)
j 13 me add to that. You can't go away with the impression !
i 14 that just four systems or five systems are going to be 15 looked at because I think the Tier 2 review is fairly l 16 significant in that they will have to -- part of the 17 ICAVP is for them to go through all the analyzed l 18 Chapter 15 accidents and select critical
- 19 characteristics and review the design of those l 20 particular systems and access mitigation systems to O
< 21 assure that they will meet the Chapter 15, what they I
g 12 2 stated in the FSAR. So it's a lot broader. It's four l 23 systems plus a lot -- many other systems besides the 24 four are going to be looked at in some fashion to O- POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
40
() HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS MARCH 18, 1997 1 provide additional assurance that they can mitigate the 2 accidents that they've analyzed.
3 MR. DELCORE: I think I understand that.
4 But I think if you look at the 50.54f issue, which was 5 the fact that they did -- they were outside their 6 design basis and it was so pervasive at Millstone that 7 originally when Shirley Jackson and gave us a proposal l 8 in August, August 6 to be exact, the idea was that we
- 9 wanted to get a determination that all of these systems
. 10 were within the FSAR, were within the license and g 11 design requirements. And in order to do that, that
/~
(T
./
12 would take a Nalk-down and a verif -- the verification 13 that she explained to us was going to be unusual and 14 that we had to do this because of the findings at 15 Millstone. Because of, what, a 7000 inspection or 16 whatever that magic --
17 MR. IMBRO: A square 7007?
! 18 MR. DELCORE: 7007 inspection that said, 1 19 " Boy, this is a pretty big problem.
It's really 20 pervasive throughout this site."
O
= 21 DR. TRAVERS: I don't want to k
j 22 underestimate or to leave you with the impression that b 23 the effort is not going to be a tremendous one. It's 24 going to take a lot of our resources. It's going to O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
41 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()
MARCH 18, 1997 1 take a lot of effort on whoever the contractor is that 2 carries it out.
3 And, frankly, there's a potential if 4 issues are identified -- you've got to think of the 5 ICAVP and the NRC verification effort as just that, 6 verification. We're not part of the resolution phase.
7 What we expect will occur prior to ICAVP 8 and prior to NRC start is that the CMP program for 1
9 those 83 systems will have done the job. If it l l
10 doesn't, there's a potential for us increasing the j l
g 11 scope of what we look at. There's a potential for us
(~S 12 pulling back and telling them they're not ready. So G
13 there's a penalty or there's a potential penalty to pay 14 if they haven't carried out their end of the bargain.
15 MR. DELCORE: I understand that. But 16 we're still only looking at some four percent of the 17 total systems that we feel are out to lunch that we
! 18 want to take a look at. That's all I'm asking.
1 19 DR. TRAVERS: That's correct. But there 20 also is Tier 2 and the Tier 3 effort that we think in O
< 21 terms of what we have done on an agency basis is quite g 22 extraordinary and is going to be a very big effort and b 23 we think it's going to give us a very good handle on 24 the adequacy of what they've done.
O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
42 gs HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
() MARCH 18, 1997 1 MR. IMBRO: Rosemary?
2 MS. BASSILAKIS: Rosemary Bassilakis. I 3 live in Haddam, Connecticut. If you don't mind -- I 4 should have asked this before this part of the 5 discussion. But can you give us a sense on how close 6 you are to determining the penalty that Millstone will 7 be receiving due to the December 5 enforcement 8 conference?
I 9 MR. LANNING: Yes. I'll answer that.
10 That's -- before you came in, we were setting some g 11 ground rules --
12 MS. BASSILAKIS: Okay.
{}
13 MR. LANNING: --
that we want to just 14 limit it to the topic that we're discussing.
15 MS. BASSILAKIS: Mm-hmm. l 16 MR. LANNING: That's still under 17 advisement by the staff. And so the final
! 18 determination has not been made.
- 19 MS. BASSILAKIS: It's somewhat pertinent 20 in that if we're seeing similar violations, then o
. 21 perhaps we need to see a civil penalty very soon. So I g 22 see it as somewhat related.
l 23 MR. LANNING: Yes.
24 MS. BASSILAKIS: In regard to the topic O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
43 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()s MARCH 18, 1997 1 of discussion, the one billion dollars per year that 2 you said that Parsons Power has as income --
3 MR. LANNING: Yes?
4 MS. BASSILAKIS: -- is that Parsons 5 Power itself? Because Parsons has many sub-groups as 6 part of the company. And I would like to know if 7 that's the company as a whole or Parsons Power itself.
8 There's probably about five different sub-groups of 9 Parsons.
10 MR. IMBRO: I believe it's -- I believe g 11 it's the whole company. But I thought --
if I'm not 12 mistaken, I think Parsons Power is the whole company.
13 MS. BASSILAKIS: No. 1 14 MR. IMBRO: But they absorbed Trolsty, 15 Main and Gilbert. They're all sort of under the 16 Parsons Power umbrella now.
17 MS. BASSILAKIS: Okay.
I 18 MR. IMBRO: They're not individual
- 19 entities any more. So I think it's one -- I think it's 20 one -- I may be mistaken. But I think it's one group.
O
< 21 MS. BASSILAKIS: I saw it as -- I looked I
? 22 at the home page and I saw it as Parsons having like 2
l 23 five different sub-companies and Parsons Power is one 24 of them. There's an engineering group and -- I don't O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 m
I 1
44 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O MARCH 18, 1997 1 remember all the others. But it might be worthwhile to 2 make sure that that one billion is representative of )
3 Parsons Power. Otherwise, it's very misleading. I --
4 MR. IMBRO: I'll check it.
5 MS. BASSILAKIS: Okay. I looked through 6 the resumes real quick, noticed that there was no names )
7 on any of them. I was wondering why that is. i 1
8 MR. IMBRO: Well, it's the same -- yta 9 probably noticed the same thing for the Sergeanc. & l 10 Lundy proposal.
g 11 MS. BASSILAKIS: No. I actually didn't 12 get to review those.
13 FR. IMBRO: Okay. Well, there were no )
14 names on those, either, because we didn't want people's 15 careers possibly to be impacted negatively if we 16 decided that they weren't qualified to do the ICAVP.
17 MS. BASSILAKIS: I see.
k 18 MR. IMBRO: So that was a conscious 19 decision made_up front --
20 MS. BASSILAKIS: okay.
O
< 21 MR. IMBRO: --
that the people would be i
g- 22 identified by number and we could reference the people l 23 by number. And then if we decided that someone was not l
24 --
didn't have the particular qualifications to do O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
i 45 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS !
- () MARCH 18, 1997 f
1 ICAVP,- then we could -- we didn't have to name the 2 person and probably cause his -- or possibly cause.nis 2 3 career some harm. -
l
. 4 MS. BASSILAKIS: Okay. In looking over 1
5 some of the resumes, one of the things -- and it's
- 6 hard. I mean there's a million of them, it seems like.
7 There's just pages and pages and pages. And you feel i a
8 like you're reading the same thing over and over again.
{
. 9 But one of the things that I noticed was '
1 10 that a number of the workers in question here had i l jg 11 worked on Crystal River 3, the unit in Florida, as well
/ 12 as Peach Bottom. And the flag that went up in my head ;
13 was that these reactors were recently put on- the NRC j 14 watch list. And then I realized -- you know, I wonder i
} 15 how much people look into whether or not any of these
!, 16 workers have had involvement with watch list reactors 17 and, if-they have, what kind of. involvement did they
'I 18 have and did their work in any way contribute to the 19 watch list status. And I was wondering if you could 20 comment on that.
O
. 21 MR. IMBRO: No. We really haven't
.I g 22 looked into that. But I mean you're correct because l 23 Crystal River 3, I believe, was designed by Gilbert 24 Commonwealth and I think probably Peach Bottom, also.
O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
46 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS MARCH 18, 1997 1 So I mean I don't know to the extent any of the people 2 --
or to what extent the people had involvement or 3 whether they were somehow related to some of the 4 problems these plants are experiencing now.
5 MS. BASSILAKIS: Well, who is 6 responsible for reviewing resumes? Whose job is that?
7 MR. IMBRO: Well, it's probably my --
8 under my responsibility. I 1
9 MS. BASSILAKIS: Oh, 10 MR. IMBRO: My responsibility to look at l l
g 11 that. I
(- 12 MS. BASSILAKIS: Okay. Well, it's 13 interesting. I don't know. It might be worth looking i 14 into.
15 The last thing --
and this may be 16 redundant, having you comment on this, but it keeps 17 coming up for me. And I'm wondering how are you going 18 to assure that the sampling that they look at is
- 19 representative? I knew it's worded in the -- I don't 20 know -- whatever letter it is, stating IC -- whatever -
O
. 21 - whatever it is.
I g 22 A VOICE: ICAVP.
l 23 MS. BASSILAKIS: ICAVP. I'm just -- can 24 you reiterate on how you're going to assure that it's a O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
1 47
, HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()/
s.
MARCH 18, 1997 1 representative sample of all the systems?
2 MR. IMBRO: It's representative in two 1
3 ways. The first being that -- and I know we've had l l
4 this discussion before -- that they're not going to l 5 pre-identify the systems and the systems will be picked 6 without the knowledge of the licensee or anyone for 7 that matter, other than probably a few people within .
8 NRC. That's the first aspect.
9 The second aspect would be, again, we're 10 not going to pick all sample from the first 18 or 11 however many systems are half of Group 1. We're going
~
12 to hold at least one system back until all the CMP is 13 completed so that then that -- that makes the process 14 more objective in that no one even -- you know, we're 15 not going to know which system we pick. But they would 16 be able to, you know, pick evenly or, I guess, from all 17 the 83 systems, to use Unit 3 numbers. So that would ;
1 l 18 be additional incentive for the licensee to do as good I 19 a job on the last one as they did on the first few Ir 20 because they don't know which system we're going to o
. 21 pick.
22 And I guess probably the other important g
j l 23 facet is we've given the public the opportunity to l
24 suggest up to two systems that we may consider for
[
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 ;
i 1
t 48 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
() MARCH 18, 1997 1 inclusion in ICAVP. When I say the public, Bill has ,
4- 2 corrected me, it's NEAC, which is right. [
3 MS. BASSILAKIS: Right.
4 MR. IMBRO: And so -- and the process
- 5 that you use to pick is -- could be determined by you.
L 6 I think the only caveat we would put on it is that we i
b 7 would sort of pre-approve a class or a group of systems 8 and say, "Okay. Pick however you want of any of
. 9 these." So that further lends objectivity that's more 4
10 of, you know, an independent, open process. So I think g 11 those are the three principal aspects to that.
12 MS. BASSILAKIS: Okay. Thanks.
)
i 13 MR. LANNING: Anyone else? Yes? Mark? ;
i
- 14 MR. MARK HALLOWAY
- Good evening. I 15 noticed that when you were talking about Sergeant &
[
i 16 Lundy and some questions you had about their L 17 independence, you asked that -- the two points. One of L
Il 18 them was a restriction of future work. You're going to
.I 19 request that they be restricted from future work on all 4 20 units for the period of one year?
O
. < 21 MR. IMBRO: Oh, throughout -- for all of fI It includes Seabrook, CY, g 22 NU, not -- beyond Millstone.
d' l 23 Haddam Neck.
24 MR. HALLOWAY: In the Parsons proposal i
POST. REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
49 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS MARCH 18, 1997 1 dated February 14, on the second page I notice it says 2 " Parsons does not own or control any stock of NU or its 3 subsidiaries and has committed to do no follow-up work 4 associated with ICAVP for Millstone Unit 2 for a period 5 of one year after completion of the project." Are you 6 going to hold Parsons Power Group to that same limit?
7 MR. IMBRO: Yes. And we raised that as 8 an issue this afternoon. Yes.
9 MR. HALLOWAY: So that will be an issue?
10 Okay. I -- you probably don't want me to say next.
g 11 Are you also going to look into the fact that the
- 12 possibility that Parsons might have some 401K ownership 13 in their plans like you have for Sergeant & Lundy?
14 MR. IMBRO: Yes. I would -- well, it 15 was stated today that, at least for the retirement 16 plan, that wasn't the case. But we would be looking 17 also for a statement of ownership interest from Parsons
! 18 similar to what we got from S&L. And that type of I 19 information, it would be disclosed in that.
20 MR. HALLOWAY: Now, is this portion of O
= 21 the meeting restricted to speaking about the ICAVP?
22 MR. IMBRO: Just the ICAVP --
{
l .23 MR. HALLOWAY: Okay.
24 MP. IMBRO: -- selection of Parsons.
m POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
50 l HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS I lff MARCH 18, 1997 1 MR. HALLOWAY: The figure of five 2 million dollars was mentioned. And I see that that's j 3 over a 10-year period.
4 MR. IMBRO: That's right.
5 MR. HALLOWAY: That's not considered 6 significant because of the volume, the billion dollars' 7 worth of sales.
8 MR. IMBRO: We haven't really come to a 9 conclusion on that. But you have to remember also that 10 that five million dollars, most of that was work on the g 11 fossil side, either in coal-fired or gas-fired plants,
(~} 12 or else transmission distribution system work. In
%J 13 other words, power lines, power distribution system.
14 So only -- of the - I mean to put it even more in 15 context, about a half a million, I think $460,000.00 to 16 he exact, was work that they did on nuclear. But, 17 again, we haven't made any decision yet. But 1 mean it
! 18 seems like a rather small fraction.
1-19 MR. HALLOWAY: Yes. But, you know, ir 20 we're talking, to paraphrase someone, a million here, a O
< 21 million there, pretty soon you're talking about a lot i
j 22 of money.
b 23 MR. IMBRO: Sure.
24 MR. HALLOWAY: Is there a magic figure POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
Il 51 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
() MARCH 18, 1997 1 that you have in mind that says --
2 MR. IMBRO: No. We -- No. ;
I 3 MR. HALLOWAY: As far as a percentage of I d
4 gross annual income, something like that?
5 MR. IMBRO: No. I don't think we have 6 any hard and fast rules.
7 DR. TRAVERS: We don't. And I think l 8 this lends itself to the issue that we've talked about I 9 before. And that is what does this mean, independence?
10 And, clearly, if you take it in its absolute sense, 11 independence can mean something more than what we had. ,
~
12 intended when we heard the order. For example, you
{
13 could take it that it shouldn't be an organization that 14 has any interest in the nuclear industry at all.
15 What we found as a practical matter and 16 certainly I think what Northeast would find if they 17 went looking is that as a practical matter if you need l 18 the kind of technical expertise to carry out this kind
- 19 of job, you're almost certain to have some relationship 20 to the industry to be able to have the technical O
. 21- wherewithal to carry it out.
X g 22 So what we're about certainly right now l 23 is making a judgment on a --
not an absolute 24 independence, but on some reasonable level of O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
52 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O a^nca 18, 1997 1 independence as it might affect linkage to the nuclear 2 industry in general and even Northeast Utilities 3 specifically. And that's what we're about. And that's 4 why they're giving us information that gives us a sense 5 of the relevant involvement that companies like Parsons 6 or Sergeant & Lundy had in the past with the nuclear 7 industry and Northeast in particular.
8 MR. HALLOWAY: So you can -- will you be 9 making a distinction as to --
I noticed here when 10 you're talking about the types of monies that have been 11 spent on fossil fuel as opposed to nuclear fuel -- is 12 that going to have any sort of bearing on your decision 13 as far as the amount? I mean if this figure had been 14 50 million dollars, would it have all been spent in the 15 fossil --
16 DR. TRAVERS: We haven't finished the 17 review. But, certainly, we're going to take what they l 18 tell us and consider it in the context of -- in I 19 regional terms, should that be viewed as a real 20 impediment to viewing this organization as independent O
= -21 from this utility? Can we reasonably expect that they l
g 22 can be given a set of marching orders and carry it out l 23 independently and give a credible report on the 24 subject? You know, I don't think -- we don't have -- I O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
i 53 !
p HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
- () MARCH 18, 1997 1 know we don't have a magic number that sets up the 2 criteria. The order was rather general in this
- 3 context. Now we're faced with making a judgment that 4
4 in some measure defines independence much more :
5 specifically.
6 And what we intend to do is, in 7 generating an approval of an organization, if it's f 8 Sergeant & Lundy or Parsons, is to characterize the way 9 we looked at it and the judgments we made. Right now 10 we're still in the process of doing that for both.
@ l 11 MR. HALLOWAY: Okay. The question of I
- g 12 subsidiary organizations was also brought up regarding 13 the --
I happen to work for an organization that 14 probably has -- is a corporation that probably has 75, 15 80 fully-owned subsidiaries. Is that something that 16 you will be looking into as a measure of the 17 independence?
l 18 DR. TRAVERS: Yes. But I'm assuming 19 that when Parsons said they -- the work they've done ir 20 previously for NU included work from all of their o
. 21 subsidiaries, I think that was all-encompassing. I i 22 g mean it's a good point.
l 23 MR. HALLOWAY: Okay.
24 MR. IMBRO: But just to elaborate a O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
- - - ~. ._. - -.. . . - -. ... _- . . . - . . - . - . - - . . - . .
i 54 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
() MARCH 18, 1997 i-1 little bit on what Bill said, I think the order 2 recognized this issue of in order to get someone to do a credible review, you know, it would obviously have to 3
j 4 be someone that has done work in the nuclear industry.
t
, 5 And it also recognized that -- I better say it limited 6 the financial involvement to having not no prior work 7 at NU or no prior work for NU, but no current work for 1 8 NU. So it recognized that, again, it's a small 9 industry. So at some point in time almost everybody i 10 has worked every place to some degree. So it comes g 11 dcwn to a question of degree. And so you look at the 12 f.ive million dollars in the context of, you know, what
{}
13 the gross company sales -- it's really -- it's not --
14 it's more or less of a subjective judgment. Again, 15 there are no hard and fast rules.
16 But the order didn't preclude people 17 from -- preclude people that had prior involvement with l 18 the licensee. The question was not having current
- - 19 involvement, which they don't. So maybe I'll leave it 20 at that.
O
. 21 MR. HALLOWAY: Okay. Thank you.
I g 22 MR. DELCORE: I have one question.
l 23 MR. IMBRO: Okay, Don. Sure.
24 MR. DELCORE: I got a question with --
O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
55 f- HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
(_)s MARCH 18, 1997 l
1 really what I have with regard to was procedure. But I 2 think it's very applicable to ICAVP. And my interest 3 is the perception I got today sitting in the audience 4 was that NU was very far or very distant from really 5 having the total knowledge of its design or license 1
i 6 basis, its FSAR and updated FSAR as a reference. It 7 was almost like, "Well, you know, for what we have 8 already, we're going to write these procedures. But i 9 when we finally get a license amendment approved and 10 when we finally get the document updated, then we will g 11 do the modifications. And when all of that's there, r'3 12 then we'll finally have a package where we're all b
13 done." And it kind of looks like we're putting the 14 horse before the barn here by trying to take a look at 15 systems whereby we don't have the whole big picture.
16 I'm not --
17 MR. IMBRO: Yes. But what they're --
l 18 MR. HALLOWAY: I'm not trying to create I
- 19 a delay. I'm simply saying to you as a bystander 20 standing out there, it doesn't look like they're ready.
O
< 21 And it looks like what they're really trying to do is I
g 22 get a head start on a start-up to get some systems out l 23 of the way first. And they look almost like they're 24 fitting the start-up to the availability of time, if A
V POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
P 56 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS MARCH 18, 1997 1 you will.
2 MR. IMBRO: But, again, I think part of 3 the CMP process is to re-establish the licensing basis 4 for one and then the second part is to provide 5 assurance by looking at the design documents that they 6 comply with their licensing basis. So by the time CMP 7 is done, which is a prerequisite for the ICAVP, they 8 should -- they have to be able to conclude or they have 9 to stand up and raise their right hand and say that the 10 systems that they've completed have -- they identified g 11 all of the deficiencies for those systems. So to get 12 to that point, they'll need to have recreated the 13 licensing basis for those systems.
14 MR. DELCORE: Yes. But I have some very 15 deep concerns in that, as you pointed out, there are 10 16 or 15 other related systems which are affecting the l 17 risk significant or the safety systems that -- in other l 18 words, from different aspects, from design basis j i
- 19 accidents and stuff like that. So I'm perceiving 20 sitting back there that things aren't ready yet. All
.o
. 21 the license basis really isn't firmed up and completely l
g 22 determined.
l 23 MR. IMBRO: Well, it's probably not.
24 But --
O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
+
57 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
() MARCH 18, 1997 1 MR. HALLOWAY: Without question for Unit 2 1. Without question for Unit 2. And I've got some 3 real reservations about what they got ready for Unit 3.
4 Like I said, sitting and listening to their 5 presentation --
6 DR. TRAVERS: Yes. We have to move on 7 to comments about the contractor. But the bottom line .
l' 8 is ICAVP is not part of the resolution process nor is 9 NRP review. When those things are turned on, they are 10 to have completed. And if they haven't, they'll suffer g 11 the consequence of not having done the job right before
(~'Y 12 we get turned on.
LJ 13 MR. DELCORE: Then you as overseers q l
14 don't have any reservations about not having a license 15 basis and a USFAR and all of that? l l
16 DR. TRAVERS: Again, we've got to accept 17 comments at this point in the meeting on the ICAVP ,
I 18 contract-,
'I
- 19 MR. DELCORE
- That's what this is.
20 DR. TRAVERS: No , it's not.
O
< 21 MR. DELCORE: Sure it is. It's I
g 22 questioning why you're going to an ICAVP phase --
h 23 DR. TRAVERS: I'm answering your 24 question, I think. So let me answer it and then we'll O POST REPORTING SERVICE !
HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
/
3 58 j ')
(
HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS MARCH 18, 1997
- 1 move on. But the answer simply is we have a lot of
- 2 concerns. They include the ones you're stipulating.
i 3 We expect and we've tried to make our expectations very I
- 4 clear to them and to the public that before ICAVP 1 5 starts and before NRC's inspection of these systems 6 starts, they have to have reconstituted their licensing
,j 7 design basis for those systems.
t i- 8 MR. DELCORE: For those systems. But
, 9 not their whole design basis. And that's the issue, i l 10 Bill.
l g 11 DR. TRAVERS: Let me finish then. As
(
{) 12 13 Gene said and I'll say it again, we won't have identified at least one, or perhaps more, systems for i 14 ICAVP' review until they're all done, i
15 MR. DELCORE: Thank you. 1 16 MR. IMBRO: There's a gentleman in the 17 back.
l 18 MR. ROBERT FROMMER: Good evening.
f- 19 MR. IMBRO: Good evening.
1 20 MR. FROMMER: Hi. My name is -- do you O
< 21 need my name?
l g 22 MR. IMBRO: Please.
l 23 MR. FROMMER: Sure. Robert Frommer, New 24 London. In reviewing your approach to ICAVP, I think, O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
l 59 f_ HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS l t MARCH 18, 1997 1 if I'm not mistaken, one of the main things that has 2 brought us to this position right now is the general 3 perception by the public of complete and total mistrust 4 of the NRC and NU. And I don't think you could relax 5 or relieve that mistrust until perhaps you take a l 6 little different approach.
7 Now, we're dealing with two concepts 8 here. One concept is an attual conflict of interest 9 and the other concept is the appearance of a conflict 10 of interest. Both carry pretty much the same weight in 11 terms of the public's perception of the potential for Q
V 12 catastrophe, not actual catastrophe, but the likelihood 13 of catastrophe.
14 I think where you have a company such as 15 the companies you're proposing that, while they may not 16 actually have a direct conflict of interest, from the 17 comments I've heard tonight and the comments you've l 18 heard ano the entire process that's gone on here, there I; 19 is definitely a perception of a potential conflict of 20 interest.
o
- 21 So the question is we have a problem 8
g 22 now. And how do we create a resolution to this l 23 problem? Well, there's various different options. One 24 option, obviously, is the one -- the tack you've taken O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
60 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS f( )
MARCH 18, 1997 1 or the NRC has taken is, " Hey, it's very, very, very 2 difficult to find anyone out in the industry in this 3 limited field that doesn't know somebody, doesn't have 4 contact with someone" and so forth and so on.
5 Well, that's true. That's a very 6 difficult field. It's limited people who have this 7 kind of highly sophisticated technical nature.
t 8 But there are literally, literally, 9 millions of engineers in the United States. And the 10 basic principles of engineering and physics and the g 11 approaches, such as configuration management and so 12 forth and so on, are known by every qualified engineer
('}
13 in the United States, I dare say, including myself 14 because I work for the U.S. Navy and I do that kind of ;
1 15 stuff. So this is not unique, i 16 What's unique is the details, but the 17 principles and practices and concepts are not unique. I l 18 They're typical, well-known engineering, system
- 19 engineering practices.
20 So my suggestion to slve the problem O
. 21 here, this dilemma that's been created, would be to 8
22 have -- if you're going to go down this road, which I l 23 don't think is a good idea because it's to say that 24 this is the only engineering company that has the (3
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
4
- i
) 61 !
HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS l.O 1 a^aca 18, 1997
. I capability of performing this kind of work in the f 2 United States. And I'm not sure that the NRC has
)' 3 provided a data base of all the companies in the United 4 States that have this capability who refused to get 3
1 j 5 involved in this work.
i
- 6 But let's say, for example -- let's take 7 this tack that you're going to do this. My suggestion 8 would be to have a reviewer of the reviewer. In other
- 9 words, have a company or an institution or an i 10 organization that specializes in doing nothing else but g 11 audits and let them review the audit process z
12 incorporated or performed to see that everything was 13 done according to Hoyle, 14 Now, maybe this is not perfection. But 15 I think it would get you closer to public acceptance 16 that there is an independent review. I think you ought 17 to give serious consideration to having an academic or 18 an institutional or an organization that does nothing
- 19 else but audits to -- and there are organizations, 20 there are engineering organizations who specialize in
.o
= '21 audits. They developed the protocol. They're very
-l g 22 well-knowledgeable in those areas. Just to make sure l 23 that there is no question in the public's mind.
24 Because really what we're dealing with here is the 4
O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
62
,- HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
- 'q)s MARCH 18, 1997 1 public's perception that the review is, indeed, 2 independent. And then perhaps I think you people would '
3 not be on so much of the hot seat that you're on right 4 now.
5 That's my views just from listening and 6 from 30 years of experience in the engineering field 7 and in politics. It's not so much the people have a 8 conflict of interest. The real kicker here is the l I
9 public's perception and they definitely don't trust the 10 government. So you have to do something that gives g 11 them some kind of assurance, you know, some kind of )
q 12 confidence that you're really not trying to hurt them,
(>
13 you're really, as public officials, performing in the j 14 public interest.
15 Thank you.
J 16 MR. IMBRO: Okay. Thank you.
17 Appreciate your comments.
I 18 MR. HALLOWAY: Thank you. ;
- 19 MR. IMBRO
- Paul?
20 MR. BLANCHE: This is somewhat of an O
= 21 extension to an issue that really hasn't been discussed g 22 in detail. About a month ago, I testified before the l 23 Maine State Legislature with respect to the independent 24 safety assessment team that the IEC sent in to assess O POST REPORTING SERVICE I HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
63 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
() MARCH 18, 1997 1 the safety, overall safety, of Maine Yankee. And I'm 2 going to get directly to the ICAVP. Don't worry.
3 They only had three criteria that the 4 team could possibly come out with. And those criteria 5 or the measurement of the success, the three 6 evaluations were Superior, Good and Acceptable. There 7 is no way they could have come up with any other 8 results than those three. As I testified, I'd love to 9 go to school with having those three criteria. I'd 10 never show up for class.
g 11 We've never discussed it before, but I
{} 12 would hope that both the ICAVP process and the NRC 13 process will have predetermined acceptance criteria.
14 And I think the public should know what those 15 acceptance criteria are, whether it's 70 percent, 50 16 percent, 40 percent. We can't accept Superior, Good 17 and Acceptable. That has to be known beforehand. I'm I 18 not sure that --
I 19 MR. IMBRO: Well, this is probably a i
e 20 test where the passing grade is going to be close to O
= 21 100 percent.
g 22 MR. BLANCHE: Well, it's got to be l 23 stated up front.
24 MR. IMBRO: Yes.
O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
- -. - . . . - . - . . -- .- - - . ..~ . . .. --
l 1
' l 64 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS i
() MARCH 18, 1997 l
1 1 MR. BLANCHE: Because this also relates l
I 2 to the concern that Don has raised. If you see -- if 1
3 you look at 1,000 issues of one system and you find 400 1
j 4 errors, do you expand your sample base? I think we l l
j 5 need to know'that up front. And I think the NRC needs j 6 to give serious consideration to it and inform the 7 public what is going to be their acceptance criteria.
8 MR. IMBRO: Well, it's -- well, the i 9 commission paper talks about the fact that we're not 10 going to have -- allow any deficiencies. So by the
- g . 11 time we're all done with this, they have to comply with 12 the licensing basis.
{
~
13 But I guess furthermore, the ICAVP is 14 really an oversight of how well the licensee does their l
3 15 corrective action. So it's really a look at their --
i t
4 16 the licensee's CMP program. And if the ICAVP starts to l 4
17 find problems, particularly if they find maybe one l 18 significant problem, we may decide that the licensee I
- 19 isn't ready and then we may say, "Okay. Go back and do 20 CMP again. Do whatever you have to do." But clearly O
= 21 we're not ready for ICAVP because their program was not I
g 22 acceptable in terms of identifying problems.
l 23 MR. BLANCHE: Well, I think you need to 24 tell the public what your criteria in general is going O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
_, -_..-__s , __ _ _ . _ _ . _ _ _ - - - _ _ _ _ _ . . _ _ _ _ . _ . _ . - _ . _ _ . - _
e i
65 i HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
.( ). MARCH 18, 1997 e 1 to be before you consider the audit Acceptable or 2 Superior, Good or Unacceptable. I mean we've seen too 3 many subjective evaluations over the past 20 years and 4 they always find that everything's acceptable, whatever 5 that means. I think for public confidence you need to 6 establish criteria of what is acceptable. And I don't 7 know what that number is.
8 MR. IMBRO: I don't know that we 9 specified a number. But I mean clearly we discussed it 10 in the commission paper, particularly in terms of g 11 deficiencies.
12 MR. BLANCHE: Well, I'm not sure that
(
13 we're aware of what those numbers.
14 MR. IMBRO: Well, like I say, I don't )
15 think there is a specific number. I don't know that 16 you can -- it's hard to -- it's hard to really have a 17 specific number. I think you have to look at the l 18 severity of the error or perhaps, if not so severe, the 1 19 number of errors. And we're not going to tolerate a 7
20 whole lot. But I mean I can't tell you right now --
O
. 21 I'm not going to put a grade on that.
I g 22 MR. BLANCHE: But, again, with Maine l 23 Yankee they found literally hundreds of deficiencies 24 but, yet, still found it acceptable for operation.
O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
66 g HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS MARCH 18, 1997 l 1 MR. IMBRO: Well, they'll tell you if j 2 ICAVP finds anything close to that, instant --
3 MR. BLANCHE: Yes. But tell the public 4 up front.
5 MR. IMBRO: Well, that's what we're 6 doing now.
l 7 MR. BLANCHE: No. I didn't hear it. I 8 mean is it 70 percent? Is it 90 percent? I don't 9 know.
10 MR. IMBRO: But I'm telling you there's g 11 no number that we're going to propose. But we're going 12 to expect close to perfection for -- in terms of ICAVP 13 going in and not identifying or identifying things that i 14 the licensee hasn't identified themselves.
15 MR. BLANCHE: Okay Well, I'm not sure 16 --
17 MR. IMBRO: Yes. I understand. I l 18 understand your point. But --
19 MR. BLANCHE: Okay. You heard what I --
ir 20 DR. TRAVERS: And just as a follow-up on O
. 21 that --
k g 22 MR. BLANCHE: Yes?
l 23 DR. TRAVERS: --
as we go along, as 24 ICAVP reports its findings to NRC of the utility, we
(
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
67 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
() MARCH 18, 1997 1
1 expect to have meetings like this to talk about the 2 findings. So you're going to get a chance to hear what 3 the findings are. You're going to get to hear the 4 significance we attach to them. And we'll be in a 5 better position to talk about, you know, whether they 6 achieved the near perfection that we're expecting in 7 this process. And if they don't, what do we do about 8 it?
9 MR. BLANCHE: Okay.
10 DR. TRAVERS: But, up front I think it g 11 would unrealistic for us to say, "Here's a number, X.
(~N 12 If they find X, we're going to do Y." It's too
(_)
13 complex.
14 MR. BLANCHE: Well, are you going to 15 have a possible outcome of Unacceptable in contrast to 16 what they had in Maine Yankee?
17 DR. TRAVERS: We've actually talked
! 18 about outcomes, potential outcomes. One of them is h
19 that if we begin to find serious deficiencies against 20 licensing basis issues, we'll stop ICAVP potentially.
O
< 21 We'll say, "Mr. Licensec, you're not ready for this I
g 22 kind of examination. The examination is a verification l 23 that you've done it. Our findings are that you 24 haven't." We stop. We pull back. Is there an impact O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
I l
i
). 68 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O a^aca 18, 1997 j 1 to that? A very serious one.
2 #'
Another potential is if the l
- 3 deficiencies, for example, are less significant, we 4 might expand the scope of what we look at to get 1 .
5 further confidence that the kinds of findings we found 1
, 6 aren't pervasive, that they really have done a good j 7 job.
i i 8, So there are a number of options that we l 1
9 can employ and we're going to do them in the full light l
{ 10 of the kind of scrutiny I'm sure you'll give it.
jg 11 MR. BLANCHE: Well, that was done in 12 Maine Yankee and it didn't succeed very well.
13 DR. TRAVERS: I'm not sure you'll agree 14 with what we do. But I'm going to tell you we're going 15 to tell you what we do.
16 MR. BLANCHE: Right. Thank you.
17 MR. IMBRO: Please.
18 MR. TED QUINN: My name is Ted Quinn
. 19 from Niantic. I have two questions. The first has to 20 do with your selection of contractor for Unit 3.
O.
. 21 MR. IMBRO: Well, we didn't -- the k 1 g 22 licensee proposed and we're trying to approve. l
- l. 23 MR. QUINN: Okay. That's --
24 MR. IMBRO: We didn't select.
O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT ('8 00 ) 262-4102
1 69 7- HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS l
() MARCH 18, 1997 l 1 MR. QUINN: Okay. And that's -- my l 2 question has to do with your selection criteria. Is l
3 the fall-back position from --
you're still under 4 evaluation. Is the fall-back position from a selection 5 of as proposed to provide more restrictions on this I 6 company that was selected or is it to ask for a 7 different company to be proposed? I'm sorry. But I'm 8 new to this system and I haven't seen it done.
9 MR. IMBRO: Well, it's probably to get 10 to ask for more restrictions rather than -- if we found g 11 serious problems, then I suppose we'd ask them to
- ("} 12 propose a new company. But I don't think we're there ei 13 yet.
14 DR. TRAVERS: Just to give you a little 15 background, what we have said to date is technically as 16 a company -- I speak of Sergeant & Lundy now because I 17 don't think we made the same pronouncement on Parsons.
! 18 From a technical perspective, certainly we believe
- 19 Sergeant & Lundy has the technical wherewithal to do 20 this kind of program.
O
. 21 MR. QUINN: Okay.
22 DR . TRAVEF 3 : So the issues that have
{
l 23 been discussed -- and I won't talk about them all --
24 but have been largely focused on the independence
'~
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70 f- HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
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1 question.
l 2 MR. QUINN: Okay. The second question 3 3 has to do with some comments you made today. You
} 4 talked about gearing up for the ICAVP with NRC staff if 5 and when it starts. And I saw the work chart from the
! 6 Parsons Group. And my question has to do with how the 7 NRC team will interface with the ICAVP. Are you l 8 intending to have specialists in a particular thing?
9 Are you actually going to have team members in 10 mechanical, electrical, project or -- how are you going g 11 to interface with them?
=
12 MR. IMBRO: Well, two principle ways, 13 In the first case, yes. I think the answer to your i 14 question is yes, we will have technical specialists.
- 15 We have people in staff and we will also hire some 4 16 contractors that have specialized technical knowledge.
17 And what we will do is a series of inspections. One of l 18 the types of inspections we will do is we will do --
I 19 when we get to approve the audit plan, if we do, we ie 20 will do an inspection of how the contractor, Sergeant &
O
= 21 Lundy, Parsons, whoever, performs in accordance with 22 the audit plan because the audit plan is something that
_{
l 23 -- in other words, after the -- the process works, 24 since you're new, is first of all there's POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
71 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O a^aca 18 1997 1 organizational approval. The licensee would propose a 2 contractor to ICAVP. Then we approve or disapprove.
3 Anyway, we finally get to the point where somebody is 4 approved.
1 5 Then this approved entity sends us an 6 audit plan. "This is how we're going to carry out this 7 review." We also need to look at that and review that 8 and approve, comment, disapprove, whatever. But 9 ultimately we get to a point where there's an approved 10 audit plan, however long that takes.
g 11 Then the ICAVP contractor will start
.,o 12 their work. They'll go ahead and do the system reviews d
13 based on systems we select. And during that process, 14 we will inspect. We will go behind them and 15 essentially pick up things that they have completed, 16 this is the ICAVP contractor, and perform our own )
17 technical reviews to assure that they're doing a I 18 thorough job in assessing CMP so that they've left no 1
- 19 stone unturned. l
-1 20 own r In addition to that, we'll do our
, O
. 21 system reviews. In other words, what we had stated to
'l g 22 keep it to ICAVP is we -- of the four or so systems i ;
!l 23 that get selected by us, we would then, after ICAVP is 24 done, we would perform our own in-depth inspection on O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
72 7 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS I MARCH 18, 1997 1 one of those systems, again to provide assurance that 2 the ICAVP was thorough. So that's how we plan that 3 interface with the ICAVP team.
4 The other thing is, of course, that 5 there's a lot of aspects to this and I may not cover 6 them all. But one of the principle things that we're 7 going to look at is the order stipulates that there 8 will be dual reporting of ICAVP findings. So as ICAVP 9 performs their task, as they find things they will i 10 report them both to us and the licensee simultaneously.
11 So, again, we can -- we will see in process the types g
~
(^T 12 of things they're finding.
\-)
l 13 Now, again, if they find, as we just 14 discussed before, if they find any significant 15 problems, then we need to re-evaluate and maybe call 16 the whole thing off. Or if there are lesser problems, 17 you know, I guess we need to judge how severe they are.
l 18 But those are the principle ways we're going to e
- i. 19 interface with the ICAVP.
20 MR. QUINN: Approximately how many NRC O
. 21 staff would interface with a single ICAVP? Do you 1
g 22 know? Ball park?
l 23 MR. IMBRO: Yes. I mean I'll tell you 24 right now we're proposing a 13-person team for each
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73 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
() MARCH 18, 1997 1 unit. So that's a lot of -- that's ultimately 39
. 2 inspectors.
3 MR. QUINN: Thanks.
4 MR. IMBRO: Other comments? Rosemary?
5 MS. BASSILAKIS: Rosemary Bassilakic 6 again. You mentioned that the NRC is going to be 7 hiring contractors. Is the public going to have any 8 input as far as which contractors that the NRC 9 contracts with?
10 MR. IMBRO: No.
11 MS. BASSILAKIS: Can there be some r^ 12 stipulation why contractors can't be under criminal
(_3/
13 investigation at the time or -- I mean --
14 MR. IMBRO: Well, this is part, I mean a 15 normal hiring. We go out and we hire -- yes. I mean, 16 really, they have to have -- be able to get plant 17 access. So if they were under criminal investigation, j
I 18 certainly they couldn't get that. l l i
- 19 MR. HALLOWAY: Well, Yankee Atomic is -
20 under criminal investigation and they're still working C
. 21 in the industry.
22 MR. IMBRO: I don't know about their g
l 23 contractors. But, anyway -- no. I mean we have clear 24 guidelines as to -- for contractor qualifications and
(>
/
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74 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
\ MARCH 18, 1997 1 we- have standard contracts with one particular 2 organization that we use periodically.
3 MS. BASSILAKIS: Do you have a sense of l 4 which company that would be?
!. 5 MR. IMBRO: It's called Parameter.
{ 6 MS. BASSILAKIS: Okay.
7 MR. IMBRO: Out of Wisconsin.
8 MS. BASSILAKIS: Thanks.
9 MR. IMBRO: Yes.
10 Others? One more. Mr. Reynolds?
g 11 MR. PETE REYNOLDS: Pete Reynolds from 12 Waterford. I had a question on the -- you were talking
{}
13 about the five million dollars that Parsons Group for 14 Unit 2 was involved and you made the distinction 15 between nuclear and non-nuclear.
16 MR. IMBRO: Yes.
17 MR. REYNOLDS: It's still the same I 18 company. Northeast Utilities has got subsidiaries. If
- 19 they run short in one section, they transfer funds to 20 another section. So it's pretty relevant, the total O
= 21 sum, not just how much was spent on nuclear.
I g 22 MR. IMBRO: Well, the reason I wanted to l 23 make the distinction was because you wouldn't want to 24 get into a situation where Parsons --
I mean it's O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
75 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
() MARCH 18, 1997 1 particularly a problem if Parsons had done a lot of 2 nuclear work for the licensee. Then there would be 3 areas that possibly they would have to be precluded
- 4 from looking at in ICAVP because, clearly, we wouldn't 5 permit them to review work that they had already done.
6 So the distinction I was trying to make ,
i 7 was that the nuclear work, even though part of the five 8 million dollar total, which, again, neede to be re-4 9 evaluated, that the nuclear portion was small. So they j
, 10 didn't have a lot of involvement with Millstone or the 11 licensee in nuclear-related matters so that would limit
!g 12 what they could look at in terms of ICAVP. I guess 13 that was the point. That was the distinction I was 14 trying to draw.
15 MR. REYNOLDS: So that's going to 16 eliminate one system right off the bat.
17 MR. IMBRO: Well, it may not eliminate I 18 any. I'm not sure.
- 19 MR. REYNOLDS: The HOV's. You mentioned 20 that you thought they were involved in that.
O
. 21 MR. IMBRO: Yes. I think they -- yes.
I g 22 I think the MOV's. Yes, the MOV's I think they were
'l 23 involved. But I think, again, it was -- I mean, again,.
24 we need more information on that. But I believe it was O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
J 76 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
() MARCH 18, 1997 1 a rather high level, sort of programmatic type thing 2 that they were doing. They were not setting up an MOV I 3 program for the licensee. But, again, I mean that's l
4 something that the licensee -- we've asked for more 5 information. They will provide it to us. And we will 6 look at it. It will be on the docket and you can look 7 at it as well.
8 MR. REYNOLDS: The MOV's are one of the 9 biggest problems in the whole industry right now.
1 10 MR. IMERO: That's true. I g 11 MR. REYN('LDS : So how are you going to
=
12 judge that --
0; r^5) 13 MR. IMBRO: Again, I don't --
I mean I l 14 can't say -- I can't judge until I know what they did.
15 I mean right now the indication is they haven't done
'16 much. But, again, we need -- that's something We need l 17 to find out and get evaluated.
]
) 18 MR. REYNOLDS: Well, I thought we were
- 19 holding these meetings so we could find out this stuff.
20 And mostly what we're getting is you don't know. You O
. 21 haven't given us the facts. We give you facts when we g 22 talk to you.
l 23 MR. IMBRO: Well --
24 MR. REYNOLDS: You don't know how much l POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i
l l
I 77 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
( MARCH 18, 1997 1 they did this and how much they did that.
2 MR. IMBRO: Again, I just asked them 3 today for the information. So I haven't gotten it yet.
4 So as soon as we get it -- the licensee is going to --
5 they're going to respond to us on the docket. And 6 you'll be able to read it just as quickly as we get it. l 7 MR. REYNOLDS: Okay. That brings j 8 another involvement of financial gain. Since this 9 started, Northeast Utilities has brought in top 10 executives from other companies, Virginia Light &
g 11 Power, Carolina Light & Power, a company in Ohio. 'Has 12 it also been looked into that Parsons or Sergeant & j G(~'N 13 Lundy has no financial involvement in those companies?
14 Because it's -- it could be very pertinent.
15 MR. IMBRO: Well, we -- honestly, we 16 haven't looked into that.
17 MR. REYNOLDS: I think maybe you should.
! 18 Because the whole --
the other power companies are 19 sending people to Northeast Utilities to help them 20 survive. And I feel that other interested parties in O
= 21 the nuclear field are going to do their best to help it I
g 22 survive. So it's getting to a point where the survival l 23 of the nuclear industry depends a lot on what happens 24 to these Millstone plants, on what happens here in POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
78
, .s HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
(_) MARCH 18, 1997 1 Connecticut.
2 MR. IMBRO: I mean I understand your 3 comment. ,
4 MR. REYNOLDS: So one of the suggestions 5 was -- by Mr. Frommer. I feel that you probably should l 6 do that. You should get an engineering firm to verify 7 these. Don't take an expert -- I was a mechanic. I i 8 was working in the nuclear field. That doesn't mean l l
9 that I don't know how to work on a car. It's still a 10 mechanical type process. And the engineering processes g 11 that you're talking here can be reviewed by almost any c
12 qualified engineering. It doesn't have to be in the (v~}
13 nuclear field.
i 14 MR. IMBRO: We understand that. I mean, 15 again, I thought that was an interesting comment.
16 MR. REYNOLDS: Well, that's about it 17 because I just don't see how you can get any
! 18 independence as long as you keep involving people that
- 19 are in the nuclear field. You have to go outside of 20 that field. And the final word comes down to what the O
. 21 NRC approves and who they don't approve. And we still
'l g 22 haven't got confidence back in you.
i'l 23 MR. IMBRO: We certainly understand 24 that.
~'
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fS HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS '
V MARCH 18, 1997 1 MR. LANNING: Okay. Was that the last 2 question? Okay.
3 MS. LUXTON: I forgot to say when I came I 4 in, there was a black Thunderbird in the parking lot 5 outside that had their lights on. That was about an 6 hour6.944444e-5 days <br />0.00167 hours <br />9.920635e-6 weeks <br />2.283e-6 months <br /> ago.
7 DR. TRAVERS: Too late now, isn't it?
8 MS. LUXTON: It was 45K75 or something 9 like that. It had its lights on.
10 DR. TRAVERS: The good news is they're lg 11 off now.
l 12 MS. LUXTON: But, anyway, you've got a 13 couple of hours. It happened to me the other day and 14 it took two hours for the battery to go down. So --
l 15 You know, I have -- Susan Perry Luxton 16 from Waterford. I have a question about Parsons Power.
17 I'm looking over the resume and work performed. It's
!l 18 three pages back from the end of your enclosure. Oh, I I 19 don't know if you handed this out tonight. But, 20 anyway, it says work performed as Gilbert Commonwealth.
,O l = 21 I assume Parsons Power was Gilbert Commonwealth at one h
g 22 point.
ll 23 But, anyway, it says in 1992 they had 24 $63,000.00 and they helped with flow chart mapping of POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
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,g HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
(_) MARCH 18, 1997 1 the configuration management processes at Connecticut 2 nuclear plants. And then it says in 1992 they had 3 $78,000.00 worth of work and the flow chart mapping of 4 motor-operated valve processes for the Connecticut 1
5 nuclear plants.
6 So we were just talking about how MOV's, l
7 motor-operated valves, have been such a problem. And, ,
8 also, obviously Millstone's configuration management 9 processes have been a problem. '
10 MR. IMBRO: Sure.
g 11 MS. LUXTON: So if these guys helped
()
%.)
12 them flow chart this stuff in 1992, well, doesn't that l' 13 raise a question in your mind about how competent these 14 people are?
15 MR. IMBRO: Yes. I don't know if it 16 raises a question about --
17 MS. LUXTON: I mean maybe not competent, 5 18 but --
I 19 MR. IMBRO: mean it doesn't
- I 20 necessarily --
the first question wouldn't be o
- 21 competence. The first question would be did they help g 22 them develop their programs. I mean I'm not sure to l 23 what extent they were involved. And, again, I have the 24 same questions that you do because I don't really know POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
81 gs
() HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS MARCH 18, 1997 1 what these words mean. And that's why we've asked for 2 more information so we can evaluate what it is they 3 did. Yes. It's a good point.
4 MS. LUXTON: Right. That's a question 5 there then.
l i
6 MR. IMBRO: Right. Yes. '
7 MS. LUXTON: And you're on Line 2?
8 MR. IMBRO: Yes, I mean I don't know 9 what the words mean. So I mean before I can say -- you 10 know, before I can make an assessment, I need to
,g 11 undarstand what it is they've done for the licensee.
f'% 12 MR. DELCORE: Right. You know what a U
13 flow chart is. Right?
14 MR. IMBRO: In some context, I do. But 15 I'm not sure exactly what it means in this context.
16 MS. LUXTON: Me, too. And I'm not so I
17 sure of configuration management -- I'm not sure---
l 18 just briefly, could you really define what I
- 19 configuration management plan means? That means the 20 hardware, the hardware of the facility?
O
. 21 MR. IMBRO: What it means, in short, is I
'g 22 that the -- when we license these plants, they're l 23 licensed to certain criteria and they have what's 24 called a licensing basis.
('h V
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l 82 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
- MARCH 18, 1997
! 1 MS. LUXTON: Right.
}
l 2 MR. IMBRO: So configuration management 3 means that they need to keep the plant, both the l l
4 hardware, procedures, et cetera, such that they're i 5 always within the licensing basis, conform to the .
6 licensing basis.
7 MS. LUXTON: Okay.
- 8 MR. IMBRO
- That's a short answer.
l 3 l 9 MS. LUXTON: Okay. Good. Thank you. l 10 MR. LANNING: Okay. We'11 now move to l g 11 the Employee Concerns Program and Mr. McKee.
12 MR. PHIL McKEE: Good evening. Employee 13 Concern Program. I want to first briefly talk about-14 one topic area in that area. And that is the third-15 party oversight organization. And I think the acronym l
16 now that's selected for that is ITPOP, which stands for l
i 17 Independent Third-Party Oversight Program.
l I 18 And where we are now on that, the 1 19 licensee has proposed Little Harbor Consultants as the l :
20 third-party organi.zation. There has been a round --
O
. 21 we've asked some questions. The licensee has responded
'! 22 to those questions. There was a meeting here on that g
l 23 organization last month.
- 24 We also -- the licensee more recently
- O
- POST REPORTING SERVICE l
HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i
1 1
l l
83 i HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS I MARCH 18, 1997 1 submitted on February 28 -- 26 a letter asking for 2 relaxation with certain provisions of the order for two 3 individuals that were proposed as part of the team with 4 respect to some past direct involvement of those 5 individuals in work at Northeast Utilities.
6 Where we are now, the decision on 7 selection of that organization and the decision on !
8 relaxation in the provisions of the order is in i l
9 process. And that's to be determined here soon.
10 The main topic I wanted to talk about g 11 tonight was the licensee's comprehensive plan for 12 handling employee concerns. And just as a quick 13 background on that, that was a portion of the order 1 14 where we asked submission of a plan. And that was to 15 be submitted to the NRC for NRC's review.
16 The licensee submitted that plan in 1
17 January 31 of this year. And, unfortunately, I think I 18 most of the copies are gone for the meeting today. And 19 the whole submittal is about an inch or so thick. l i
r 20 There were copies of it before. I know there were O l
. 21 copies available at other meetings. If somebody wants l l !
g 22 a copy, if they give me their name and address, we'll l l 23 execute a couple more trees and provide you with a copy 24 of that plan.
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84 f- HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
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MARCH 18, 1997 j l
1 On that plan, the licensee met with the l
2 public in February and I think they presented that plan l 1
3 to some extent of where they're going. We also had a 4 meeting that we had with the NEAC where that was one I
5 aspect that the licensee gave a presentation on where 6 they were with that, with their comprehensive plan. )
7 And there was some discussion and comments on that.
8 And I think at that meeting there was also copies 9 available. And so now I think there are copies 10 available in the local public document room and in the 11 Waterford Library, which is kind of a temporary local l G 12 public document room here now.
V 13 We are reviewing -- we, meaning NRC, is l 14 reviewing that plan. We have solicited and gotten some 15 support from members that were on the Millstone 16 Independence Review Group -- that was the group that 17 was headed by John Hannon last spring and summer and
! 18 came out with a report -- to look over the plan.
19 Our expectations are to develop some 20 comments, observations and provide those back to the 0
. 21 licensee and likely meet with the licensee at some l
'g 22 point after we send those comments to get some more
$ 23 details.
24 I might mention that the plan itself --
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85 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
() MARCH 18, 1997 1 and it was discussed as developed. A lot of the input 4
2 was the genesis of it was they they had an Employee 3 Pancerns Task Force that developed a . plan. And I 4 believe many of those elemencs or to a substantial 5 portion of those elements were incorporated in the 6 licensee's final plan.
7 It has a number of elements. It had six t 8 elements that they describe, particularly primary among 9 that is the Employee Concerns Program, a new program !
10 that they have developed versus the one that existed
- g. 11 before. Training aspects for managers and also l 12 employees and also new members of the Employee Concerns
[}
13 Program. And creation of an oversight panel.
14 And I might mention that the 15 comprehensive plan itself, for those of you that looked 16 at it, is really -- from our perspective, is a lot of i 17 framework. There are plans that they refer to that are
! 18 going to be developed in the future and are being j 19 developed now, more detailed plans to carry through the 20 whole pyramid of activities that are subjects of the O
= 21 plan. So a lot of it is a framework with indications l l g 22 of things that are going to be -- are being developed l- 23 now and to come out.
24 We met with the licensee today. One of POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
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%. . , , - ~ - - - - ,. _ ,- _ - - - - -- ..
86 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS 7-)s
(, MARCH 18, 1997 1 the topics that was discussed at that meeting was the 2 status and where they are with the comprehensive plan.
3 Primary among some of the things that were discussed 4 were some immediate programmatic enhancements were made 5 with the Employee Concerns Program plan where they made 6 some procedural changes and I guess some additional 7 people were hired in'as part of the Employee Concerns 8 Program to assist in investigations and follow up on 9 some of the issues.
10 It was also mentioned that certain g 11 elements of the plan now are in place. The Chief
(~) 12 Executive Officer has issued his expectations with V
13 respect to the plan and missions and goals of the plan.
14 There's also development of more detailed position 15 descriptions for people that are going to come into 16 their Employee Concerns Program, the specific part of 17 the Employee Concerns Program office.
18 And, also, there are several action l
i: 19 plans that now have been developed that are sub-tier 1
20 action plans. I think two of those plans on O
a 21 communications and on their Employee Concerns Program l >
g 22 have been submitted to the NRC and are available on the !
h 23 docket. And we probably will see some additional of 24 those as they develop.
T .
('~) l POST REPORTING SERVICE ,
HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 !
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I 87 73 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS ,
(,) MARCH 18, 1997 j l
1 And, more importantly, one of the big 2 topics in discussion today was the subject of where 3 they stand on an oversight panel. And this oversight l l
4 panel is a licensee. It's not part of the ITPOP. It's j 5 a licensee panel that includes some employees, 6 management and defined how that program is being .
l 7 developed, whom it may consist, that it's really an 8 oversight of the Employee Concerns Program. Also, 9 resolution processes and line organization. And issues 10 and things that they bring up will be identified and g 11 provided directly to Mr. Kenyon.
(~ 12 That was discussed. Again, even that
%)S 13 plan still hasn't been developed completely. The 14 charter has to be completed once they get the group and 15 organization together.
16 That was the primary elements of what 17 was discussed today by the licensee. What we'll be I 18 asking -- for those of you that have had an opportunity 1
19 to look at the plan, have heard some of these ir 20 discussions, we're really looking for comments with o
a 21 respect to the comprehensive plan from you. And that's g 22 the focus of what I'm trying to get here tonight, b 23 although I guess we'll be available for comments in 24 other areas later on.
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 )
88 gs HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS !
(_) MARCH 18, 1997 l
1 One side topic I would like to mention - )
i 2 -
and there are copies of them in the back. And it's l 3 related. The NRC issued just recently, on February 26, 4 published in our Federal Register a safety -- and asked 5 for public comments on safety-conscious work -- let's 6 see. Safety-conscious work environment.
7 And kind of the background from that is 8 there was issued in the past and through our 9 enforcement policy there was issued a policy on freedom 10 of employees in the nuclear industry to raise safety
'g 11 concerns without fear of retaliation. That's an NRC
,t ;
) 12 policy statement. This is -- this policy statement or j
('J
\_
13 this statement builds upon that.
14 Also, one of the factors into that were 15 some of the findings of the Millstone independent 16 review group that had findings and found in some places 17 -- and Millstone happened to one where this did not I
18 exist and there may be problems. And further 19 information or ways to measure this might be needed.
20 And if you'll excuse me, I'll read some O
= 21 of the -- and, again, it's available in the back there.
I g 22 "The Commission is evaluating the development of a l 23 standardized approach that would (1) require licensees 24 to establish and maintain a safety-conscious work O
\_)
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HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS !
() MARCH 18, 1997 l 1 environment with clearly defined attributes, and (2) 2 establish certain indicators that may be monitored and 3 that, when considered collectively, may provide
! 4 evidence of an emerging adverse trend, and (3) outline 5 specific remedial actions that the Commission may l 6 require when it determines that a particular licensee 7 has failed to establish or maintain a safety-conscious 8 work environment."
9 Now, you can see a little bit by those 10 topics where some of this may have generated from the
, g 11 situation at Millstone. So, thus, the group here may 12 have some good insights and information to provide
(^j3 s
13 comments on this, on this statcment.
14 It proposes sevelal approaches, whether 15 rule-making is appropriate, an additional policy i 16 statement and asks several questions and gives options 17 of how areas may be monitored and what may be included I 18 in the rules.
l- 19 So, again, if you have a chance to look l 4
[ 20 at this, it directs you where you can provide comments ,
o l
. 21 at the NRC and it's asking for comments by the end of j b l g 22 May of this year, May 27. That would be appreciated. i l 23 ilith that, that covers what I wanted to 24 present. Again, I'm looking for primarily comments on i O
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e i
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HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
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I MARCH 18, 1997
} 1 the comprehensive plan. So, with that, who may have f
2 comments?
i 1
4 3 Ms. Concannon?
f 4 MS. TERRI CONCANNON: Good evening. I'm 5 Terri Concannon from Haddam, co-chair of the NEAC. I
! 6 just -- following up on the meeting that we had in ,
7 January, I wanted to ask -- no. What's this month?
8 It's March. It was February. That we had some f 9 concerns about the -- what -was then the IOTCN. It's 10 now become the ITPOP?
g 11 MR. McKEE: ITPOP. Yes.
{} 12 13 MS.
acronyms until about a year ago.
CONCANNON: I never dealt in 14 < What I wanted to ask was we -- there 15 were some concerns about the makeup of Little Harbor 16 Associates and particularly some members that had been 17 added to their team at that point and that you were I 18 going to review their participation. Have you done I; 19 anything in that respect?
20 MR. McKEE: With -- in particular, there
.O
. 21 are two people they were going to add to the program.
g 22 MS. CONCANNON: Right. J l 23 MR. McKEE: I think one of the comments 24 came up that one in particular, Ms. Garde --
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MARCH 18, 1997 :
1 MS. CONCANNON: Right.
2 MR. McKEE: -- had some previous direct 3 involvement. I said that's one area where the licensee i 4 has requested relaxation for her based on the number of I
- 5 measures, based on her experience in the area and also 6 her connection with -- there was another comment that !
l 7 there really wasn't many or anybody that had a 1 l
8 perspective from an employee, which she has. And that )
9 was the case they've made for relaxation for that 10 individual. And we're reviewing that.
i g 11 They've also requested relaxation for ]
=
(~% 12 another individual that was originally proposed, a Dr.
%)
13 Wood, who had some previous involvement with a PRA for )
14 Millstone Unit 3. And they provided a request and some !
15 justification for relaxation for him. And that's the 16 other one that we're looking at. J l
17 DR. TRAVERS: We basically rolled up l l
! 18 their request for approval of the organization, Little j i
- 19 Harbor, in this case and their subsequent requests I 20 think on February 28 for relaxation to include these j O I
< 21 two individuals into one action. We're looking at them l b I g 22 in sort of -- I mean we recognize they're related, but I l 23 somewhat independent actions.
24 MS. CONCANNON: Right.
(3
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1 DR. TRAVERS: But we're looking at them 2 in sort of toto. )
- 3 MS. CONCANNON
- Okay. Thank you.
1 4 And there was one other aspect to do !
5 with Little Harbor Associates. I think they had said l 6 that they wouldn't be involved for six months after the 7 --
after this with NU. And we had suggested that I I
8 perhaps it would be extended to a year. l 9 MR. McKEE: And that happened. And i i
j 10 thei r response to us -- and that was one of our !
g 11 questions. They responded that they were going to 12 extend that for a year and it wasn't from for a year 13 from when an individual left that practice. A year 14 from when Little Harbor Consultants would end their 15 contracting services with Northeast Utilities.
16 MS. CONCANNON: Good. All right. Thank 17 you very much.
I 18 MR. McKEE: Thank you.
1
- 19 Don, you're next.
S l 20 MR. DELCORE: Don Delcore. I had a O
. 21 couple of questions with regard to the process for, I b
g 22 guess, ITPOP now. I can't remember -- I read the l 23 order. And I don't have a copy of either the ICAVP 24 orders or the ITPOP order. And I'm wondering if I FOST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
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1 MARCH 18, 1997 1 could get those from the NRC somewhere, if that's l
, 2 possible.
3 But the question I have with regard to ,
I 4 it is that it appeared to me when I read it that simply l l
4 5 all that has to occur prior to start-up is that you 6 guys simply have to approve it. You guys being the
- - 7 NRC.
J 5- 8 MR. McKEE: Approve what?
f 9 MR. DELCORE: Approve the oversight team 10 and the oversight process. There's nothing in that g 11 order that I could see that says that certain aspects 12 have to occur with regard to some demonstration that, I
{ }-
13 in fact, that oversight process is working and is
- 14 accomplishing what its intended purpose was.
I i 15 MR. McKEE: You're right. The order 16 does not explicitly say, at least prior to restart, i 17 that --
on performance, it says that that third-party
- ! 18 organization has to be approved. However, that's what ll 1 - 19 the order says explicitly. We have also -- we have 20 identified before the Commission and I believe it's O
. 21 even in our Commission paper that we will do an I 22 and g assessment of the implementation of their programs l 23 come to a conclusion on that.
- 24 DR. TRAVERS
- And we've incorporated POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i
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4 94 i HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS i
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- I 1 that into the umbrella process that we're using for f
2 assessing their readiness for restart. And it's 3 another buzz word, but it's the new Reg 0350 for j 4 inspections. New Reg 0350 process --
j 5 MR. DELCORE: Well, as an individual in 6 the public, much in the same manner that Northeast 7 Utilities has pleaded for some relief with regard to a
8 you relaxing the requirements for Billie Garde and the 9 other individual, I would plead for this public that 10 you modify that order and, in turn, require that a l g 11 performance type requirement be in that order with 12 regard to that process because you've used the 350 13 process before to approve start-ups; in fact, with Unit 14 2 not too long ago. And we had those problems at Unit 15 2 that were pretty clear by the John Hannon report that 16 had existed when you allowed that to start up.
l 17 So what I'm saying is as a public I 18 individual I'm looking for you -- by pleading that you
. 19 change the process much the same as you're going to
. 20 allow the Billie Garde entrance. I think to represent O
. 21 the public properly with this, that we should, in fact, i i 22 have some kind of performance requirement established g-
'l 23 and some base line, not like the ICAVP. Everything in 24 the ICAVP -- and I'm not trying to point it at Gene.
O POST REPORTING SERVICE I
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1
.. .~ - - . .
i 95 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
() MARCH 18, 1997 1 But it's pretty subjective. I mean you guys don't have 2 anything in there that gives us a line where if they 3 have two errors on a sub-system or four errors on a s 4 sub-system or something like that, that you're going to 5 stop the process or you're going to make some changes 6 to it.
7 Well, I'm interested in the same thing 8 with the Employee Concerns Program because the Employee 9 Concerns Program is really the reason why we're all 10 here, guys. You know? What they've done to employees 8 11 since 1985 is absolutely unacceptable. And you need a l e
- ; (^T 12 better gauge in your oversight than just having an I
t
(_)
13 oversight program established. You need to change 14 that.
15 The other -- you know, that's basically 16 a statement. And I don't think that really requires 1 17 any answer.
! 18 I have a question with regard to your 1
- 19 comfcrt, each individual person up here. Are you ir 20 comfortable with what you see going on right now at o
. 21 Millstone with regard to the upper management, that is I
g 22 Mr. Kenyon, Mr. Carnes and a few others, making l 23 comments that the plants aren't going to survive if 24 they don't make these changes?
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96 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS F
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MARCH 18, 1997 1 It seems to me that what it's doing is 2 it's creating an intimidation. It is creating a 3 chilling effect among the employees with regard to them 4 coming forward with issues and not wanting to be the l 5 person that's going-to be responsible for a bankruptcy, 6 that's going to be responsible for not having a start-7 up. And I've seen it time and time again. Publicly 8 we've seen those comments. In videos to -- on your 9 last meeting, January 30, you guys had a meeting with 10 Shirley Jackson and the rest of the Commission. And I 11 think he was very pointed in that meeting, as I
() 12 13 remember didn't get a seeing the video, that he pointed out if he plant running by the end of this year or 14 the first part of next year, there wasn't going to be a 15 Millstone. And he pointed that out to Shirley Jackson.
16 I'm very concerned about that. And, 17 incidentally, while we're talking about that -- but l 18 you've got to understand this whole concept. I -- the 1 19 night, the last night --
time we had a NEAC meeting I 7
20 think it was Susan Perry Luxton that specifically asked
-o
. 21 Mr. Kenyon if he made those kind of statements in I
22 lectures to the employees and he said that they weren't g
l 23 making those kind of statements.
24 Now, I've reviewed videos of those O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
97 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
( MARCH 18, 1997 1 meetings. And he is making those statements and he did i
2 make that statement in front of Shirley Jackson.
3 So my question to you guys e- are you l 4 comfortable with what you see there with regard to 5 those people?
6 MR. LANNING: You'll also recall -- did 7 you read the transcript of what the charter's response 8 to that statement was?
9 MR. DELCORE: No. I looked at the l 10 video. I l
g 11 MR. LANNING: Okay. It in effect said 3
12 that we didn't -- we would not pace our inspection 13 program or approve restart based on that kind of a 14 statement or words to that effect. So her point was 15 that we were going to do whatever was necessary to 16 judge the readiness for these units to restart.
17 Concerning the statements made, those l 18 statements have been made in a public forum, as you 19 have pointed out, and they've also been made, 20 apparently, to --
G
= 21 MR. DELCORE: Employees.
I g 22 MR. LANNING: Employees. Does that h 23 create a chilling effect? It's not obvious right 24 offhand that it does. That was a business transaction O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
98 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS (f MARCH 18, 1997 1 or a business decision or a business statement more 2 than anything else. So I --
3 MR. DELCORE: Are you comfortable with --
4 MR. LANNING: I don't believe it creates 5 a chilling effect in that context. In terms of whether 6 or not he gets a unit started this year or not, it 7 doesn't make any difference to me.
8 MR. DELCORE: It doesn't to you. But 9 does it -- do you feel that it does to the employee 10 sitting back there that has to make a decision on an g 11 issue he uncovers that may be a very important issue or 12 a time-consuming or a money issue?
[ .
13 MR. LANNING: I don't think so. Because i 14 it's important that they identify all their problems. I 15 And, of course, you know employees are the primary 16 source of that. And for those employees not to come ,
i 17 forward with known deficiencies and let them lie and l 18 then let NRC come along and find them, that's not good I
- 19 for the company. So I think there's a chilling effect 20 here based on those kind of statements.
=O
< 21 MR. DELCORE: Bill, do you feel that g 22 way? Gene? Jacque? I'm trying to get a consensus on l 23 how you guys feel. I'm just -- everybody I talk to 24 doesn't have that consensus. They feel as if that's a POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 4
99 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
() MARCH 18, 1997 1 problem and that they shouldn't be dealt with that kind 2 of an issue. It's one thing for the company to 3 understand it. It's one thing for the company 4 management to discuss it between itself. It's another 5 issue to dump on the workers and say, "If we don't get .
6 this plant running, we're going to be bankrupt and 7 you're not going to have a job." I'll tell you what; 8 that would chill the hell out of me if I was in there.
9 I wouldn't.be running to my boss with stuff.
10 MR. DURR: You asked me a question and I 11 guess I owe you a response. I'm kind of neutral on
~
12 whether it creates a-chilling effect or not because on
)
13 the flip side of that, I know that there are industries 14 out there where companies have been in trouble and the 15 employees were certainly distressed to find out way 16 down the pike that that company was in trouble. And so 17 it's a double-edged sword. It may -- it may create I 18 some of the atmosphere that you're talking about. But, 1
- 19 on the flip side of that, do the amployees have the 20 right to know that information so that they can plan O
. 21 their lives? I have mixed emotions about it, to be i 22 honest with you. It's -- and so I come out kind of g
E f 23 neutral.
24 I know that historically there has been, O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
l 100 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS I
() MARCH 18, 1997 1 in other industries, companies that were on the verge j 2 of bankruptcy didn't tell anybody and one day the 3 people came to work and just found the doors were I
4 closed. And it put people on the street with no 5 forewarning at all. And so is that fair? I l
6 And so I have mixed emotions about it. !
7 And I think the net gain is zero. I think the 8 employees have a right to know that information. And 9 could it create something of a chilling effect? I l 10 would only know that by talking to the individuals. I g 11 really don't know.
i;
/~N 12 MR. DELCORE: Let me go one step further U
13 with that and ask you if you feel comfortable with the 14 -- how do I want to put it here? -- with the issue that 15 employees who are -- I'm trying to put it in the right 16 perspective so that you can understand where I'm coming 17 from.
, ! 18 I think what I've seen in both the video 1
19 with Shirley Jackson and I saw here today with Buzz 20 Carnes was a position that the company has two entities
'O
= 21 out here, the rebellious small group of individuals who g 22 are raising concerns and the general public as a whole.
l 23 And the perception is that the general public as a 24 whole doesn't have any problem with NU's plans to start
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101 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS l
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1 up and pretty much agrees with the way they're doing i
2 business and that the small rebellious group is, in 3 fact, creating all of its problems. i 4 And, again, that's not a position that a '
l 5 company looking to start a plant up and trying to sell l l
6 the product that they're offering, that they are 7 responsive to the concerns of individuals. l l
8 Let me be very frank with you, Jacque.
9 I am a retired person from NU. And as such, I am a l
10 protected employee because I am raising these issues, g 11 And I don't believe anybody can separate me and put me
- 1
(~3 12 in a category that says that I'm in here creating -- !
%/
13 I'm creating a problem for him because I'm raising '
14 these issues. It's, after all -- in other words, what 15 he was saying today was that we were off the wall and 16 we were raising issues that he read some letter from i
17 this guy Matthews and that he went along with it and he l l
I 18 thought it was a great thing that this guy Matthews was I 19 writing to things were
- him about these bad that we 20 doing.
O
= 21 And I've simply been sitting here at j 22 this table reading from 9604 and 9605 and 9606 -- and b 23 for those of you who don't understand that, that's 24 these inspection reports. I've been reading what you O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
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. 1 guys have been saying about them publicly. And this 2 guy is attacking my character and the character of a 3 bunch of other people who are trying to ensure the 4 safe, correct start-up of that plant.
5 And he is not impressing me nor is 6 Kenyon allowing him to do that by raising issues about 7 the way we're doing business as a group. We're here as 8 a function, hopefully, to make everything work right.
9 And I think you guys should be taking the offensive and I
10 getting after those guys and stopping that when it g 11 happens. Because I'm not any different than anybody
{} 12 else when it comes to plant safety.
13 Thank you.
14 MR. LANNING: Thanks for your comments.
15 We're still on the topic of Employee l
16 Concerns. Right? ;
17 MR. McKEE: That's right.
l 18 MR. LANNING: Yes. The gentleman behind 1
19 Mr. Blanche. You had your hand up earlier. And we'll 20 get to, Paul, you next.
O
= 21 MR. FROMMER: This is a statement from I l
22 Mike --
l h 23 MR. McKEE: You're right. I'd like a 24 copy of that. There's a videotape I'll have to open I POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
I 103 l s HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
( MARCH 18, 1997 1 up. What was the videotape? What is the videotape on?
2 MR. FROMMER: The videotape is the tape 3 that Mr. Delcore has been talking about. This is Mr.
4 Kenyon videotaped talking to his employees, telling 5 them they're going to go bankrupt essentially. And 1
6 then, when he's questioned by Susan Perry Luxton, he i
7 turns around and says, "You misunderstand what we're 8 saying" and he puts the onus on a person by the name of 9 Mike Brown, who I happen to know very well, who is 10 extremely honest, g 11 And the question that comes in here --
=
12 before I get into my long --
or not long, but i 13 presentation --
is that ultimately on the safety-14 conscious work environment and Employee Concerns 15 Program is that Mr. Kenyon ultimately is the person l l
16 that has responsibility for making decisions if someone l
, 17 has been, say, improperly dealt with. And that's
! 18 analogous to the fox watching the henhouse. Okay? l 19 You all know and you've all learned from 20 history in the United States more so than any other l 0
< 21 country that there has been, ever since the Industrial g 22 Revolution in this country, a classical approach to l 23 management employees and it has been confrontational.
24 This way. This is the way it's been. And that's why O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
104 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O a^aca 18, 1997 1 unions have come into being. Okay? To do one thing.
2 The purpose of unions as management is 3 to establish balance between opposing sides in 4 industry. I haven't seen your Employee Concerns packet 5 and program and I haven't had a chance to look at your 6 proposals there. But from what I can hear and from 7 what I listen to what you're saying and understand what 8 you're saying and from my knowledge of what has 9 occurred in the past, your program is doomed to failure 10 because you're essentially asking an independent group g 11 to monitor what goes on. Well, that's nice and dandy.
12 But, ultimately, unless someone has some l 13 kind of authority, other than the NRC, administratively 14 independent of the NRC because the NRC and NU are 15 perceived as being -- whether you are or not -- it's 16 just a perception -- of being in bed with each other 17 and you bo.;h have been perceived as the problem.
I 18 And so it's very difficult for employees I
- 19 to feel comfortable that, " Hey, they' re going to get 20 what we all have come to realize under our O
= 21 Constitution, fairness, due process of law and b
j 22 justice."
h 23 Your system, from what I can tell, 24 doesn't guarantee any of that. Now, in the past, Mr.
n POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
105 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS l f)\_/
MARCH 18, 1997 1 i
1 Durr, upon one of my questions as to the number of j 2 failures attributable to human unreliability, quoted to 1
3 me a number of 50 percent on the average. That was !
4 what Mr. Durr quoted to me.
l 5 I work reliability field '
in the and I 6 would suggest to you the number is probably more like 3
7 75 percent because parts don't in and of themselves, l
8 when they're properly designed, fail. It's something a j l
9 human being did, didn't do or should have done that is ;
10 usually attributable to cost of the failures.
11 Okay. Now, the question is we again
( 12 have a problem here. How do we have a resolution?
(_]-
13 Well, Connecticut has set up -- and I don't know if 14 you're familiar with this. And I suspect it's been 15 done in other states. Has set up a process, an 16 administrative judicial process uhere it seems to work 17 in dealing with management / labor issues.
! 18 In Connecticut, where, for example, 1
- 19 municipal unions are involved, if there's a threshold 20 issue that both sides can't agree on, they both agree O
. 21 to go to what's called binding arbitration. And l side picks an l
22 essentially in binding arbitration each g
l 23 individual, labor picks an individual, management picks !
24 an individual, and then both sides pick a person who is
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j 106 i HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS j() MARCH 18, 1997 l i
1 neutral, not involved with labor, not involved with j 2 management, to make ultimate decisions which are 3 binding.
[ 4 Now that, to me, is a much, much fairer 5 process guarantaeing justice and due process than the
- - 6 system that you're proposing. So what I suggest is you l t ;
7 give serious consideration to such a process because 8 what you have now and what .you're proposing now )
4 -
9 ultimately is not going to work because it does not i
l- 10 convey to the employee that he has any confidence in
!g 11 your system because most of the problems, as I've said,
>c
,{) 12 are employee-based problems or human-based problems, 13 not necessarily employee, but human-based problems. ,
34 And so if you want to -- if you want to
]_
15 get the maximum efficiency and effectiveness out of l
16 human beings to ensure that you're going to have the 17 best system that's going to be the safest system, you
~[ 19 have to do everything possible to motivate and
! 19 incentivize employees so that they will come forward, !
20 they will come forward to raise safety concerns which o ,
.. 21 they have a high probability of confidence that they '
l g 22 will be resolved in a fair way. That means you have to l 23 set up a fair system.
24 And unless you set up a fair system, you
) ,
POST REPORTING SERVICE !
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l l
107 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS (s) MARCH 18, 1997 l 1 really haven't moved off the dime. You haven't gone 2 anyplace. You know, I always say where you have 3 revolutions -- you know, we see revolutions around the 4 world all the time and you hear people saying, "Well, 5 I'd like to change the government by revolt because, I 6 you know, we can't accomplish anything." And I always 1
7 say that all you do when you do that is you replace one 8 form of corruption with another form of corruption.
9 Ultimately, you really haven't changed anything. So 10 you really need to change your approach. j g 11 And I think the approach is you have to 12 say, "Do we want fairness? Do we want due process? Do 13 we want justice? Do we want to motivate and 14 incentivize the employees that they're going to have a l 15 reasonable probability of confidence that when they l 1
16 raise safety concerns not only are they going to be I 17 addressed, but they're not going to be intimidated, ,
l I 18 harassed, punished in one form or another?" )
19 And you have to understand that these 20 employees, no matter what system you set up -- at least O
= 21 the system that you've set up, you think you're really g 22 going to -- but with all the training programs and all l 23 these things, you really think you're going to change 24 the stripes on the tiger? Because you have the same POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
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I 108 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
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l 1 people in place. You think you're going to somehow go 2 in there and psychologically and psychiatrically change .
1 3 the mindset of these people involved in management who 4 have been conditioned one way all of a sudden think 5 you're going to take adults and condition them another 6 way? It ain't going to work. That's not human nature.
7 History has shown that. Okay? l 8 So you have to have a real system of 4
9 checks and balances. Balance. And what I'm suggesting 10 is one approach. It's not the only approach. But it g 11 definitely is the better approach than what you have.
12 Thank you.
}
13 MR. McKEE: Thank you. I just might 14 mention that the program that's in place is -- is not 15 an NRC program. It's what -- and that's what I'll send 16 you. It's a program that's proposed by the licensee.
17 I think some of your comments are still relevant to
! 18 that. But I just wanted to clarify that, that one
- 19 aspect.
20 And the other aspect --
again, we'll O
= 21 send it to you. I think some of those elements, I
g 22 through various elements of the program, try to inject h 23 that fact of an arbitration when the oversight panel 24 and some of the other elements. But I do understand O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (600) 262-4102
l 109 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS (qj MARCH 18, 1997 1 your comments and --
2 MR. FROMMER: You know, when you say --
3 the thing is when you say inject an element of 4 arbitration, you either have arbitration that's binding 5 or you don't have arbitration that's binding. You 6 can't kind of go in between in the middle and say, l 7 "Well, we have something kind of like that." That's 8 not the way it works.
9 You have to have a true balance that's 10 enforceable. Ultimately, it comes down to, no matter ;
g 11 who is doing anything, enforcement of what's in place.
(^)g 12 And if you're going to put enforcement in the hands of 13 Mr. Kenyon, then we might as well all go home because 14 we know what the ultimate results are going to be ,
15 especially given that videotape. l 16 How do you have any credibility or trust 17 a man that on one hand tells his employees one thing l 18 and on the other hand lies to the public? How do you
- 19 have credibility with someone who is economic-based and 20 has to make decisions for his safety of his own neck O
a 21 concerning economics that's going to concern himself l
g 22 with protecting employees?
l 23 You know, the history of America is a 24 history of robber barons. And nothing has changed in f
k l POST REPORTING SERVICE !
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I l
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, HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS MARCH 18, 1997 1 modern era. We've just changed the characters and the 2 faces. But the types of individuals we're talking 3 about, the mentality is still the same.
4 MR. McKEE: Thank you.
5 MR. FROMMER: Thank you.
6 MR. McKEE: Paul?
7 MR. BLANCHE: Paul Blanche. I think I'm i 8 going to have to put on my third hat now. The fact of I l
9 the economic situation at Northeast Utilities without a l 10 doubt can have a chilling effect on employees. There's 11 no doubt about it. When statements are made that p 12 There's a cliff out there. We don't know exactly where j V
13 it is, but it's out there somewhere and if we don't get 14 one of these plants restarted" -- that can have a 15 chilling effect. That's been recognized. It's been 16 recognized by the people that I report to.
17 I speak to small groups, trying to get l 18 to as many groups as I possibly can, with my other hat I
- 19 on as an NU contractor. One of the things that I 20 discuss with the groups is the fact that we realize O
. 21 there is economic pressure, also realize that you have i 22 requirements under 10 CFR Part 19 to report safety g
l 23 concerns.
24 If we don't identify them inside of POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i 1
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111 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
() MARCH 18, 1997 1 Northeast Utilities, someone else may. Maybe the NRC 2 will. They may be identified just prior to start-up.
3 They could impact start-up.
4 There's no doubt about it. There is a 5 potential chilling effect created by this economic 6 pressure. That is recognized by myself and by 7 management. And we are actively out there telling the 8 employees, "Do not become chilled because of these 9 economic pressures. You are obligated to bring forth 10 those safety concerns. And we will address them. We l l
g 11 have to address them."
12 With respect to Mr. Frommer's comments
(~5)
L.
13 about changes, there are changes being made. They're 14 positive changes. We've got a long way to go. But if 15 you just look at the number of safety concerns that are i
4 16 being brought forward now over the past month or two, l 17 they're increasing significantly. That's a positive I 18 sign. '
- 19 The method in which they're being !
Ir 20 handled, the independence. There's no more circle, the O
. 21 lawyers protect the management philosophy. Independent b
'g 22 investigations are being conducted. Things are l 23 changing. And I think that most people do recognize l
24 that potential chilling effect, which is a very, very l
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-s HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
, (j MARCH 18, 1997 1 major concern. And Don and everyone is right in saying 2 there is a potential there.
3 Thank you.
4 MR. McKEE: Thank you.
5 Anybody else? Mr. Reynolds?
6 MR. REYNOLDS: I'm going to have to 7 punch a hole in Paul's third hat, I think. He's {
8 talking about the safety concerns program. But I think 9 the ultimate goal, I thought, was that you could bring 10 up a safety concern to your management. You shouldn't g 11 have to go to the Nuclear Safety Concerns Program.
Q V
12 MR. DURR: Let me take that. Let me 13 extrapolate. What you said is probably true. If --
14 and Don will probably bear me out on this. If you had 15 an effective corrective action program, you don't need 16 any Employee Concerns Program. If you listen to me 17 harp through all these meetings to Northeast Utilities l
! 18 and the letter I sent them last year was "Your 1
19 corrective action program is broken. It doesn't work.
20 Don't restart the plants until you get it fixed." ;
O i e 21 If you have an effective corrective i
g 22 program, all these things that the whistle-blowers will l 23 come forward -- they could put them in that program and 24 it's going. It works and it gets you out of this l POST REPORTING SERVICE l HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 1
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, 113 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS l MARCH 18, 1997 i
I 1 thing. )
1 2 So an effective Employee Concerns l
! 3 Program is good. But even better is an effective i 4 corrective action program so I don't need an Employee 1 5 Concerns Program because the things that are supposed i ;
- 6 to catch these things is working and it negates the ,
?
i 7 need for all of these things.
4 ;
i 8 So where I'm coming from and where the l 9 NRC is pushing hard on this utility is you show me that .
- 10 you can identify problems and you can fix them and they J
lg 11 get done. Not promises, not all these other things.
= '
12 Just fix the damn thing. That's my motto. That's l 13 where I'm coming from. And I think that's the ultimate j 14 solution for this whole thing. '
15 You get out of this do-loop of people l
15 identifying things, nothing ever happens. They become l 17 frustrated and they try to go somewhere else to get it I
18 fixed, the Employee Concerns Program, the NRC, wherever
- 19 it is that they have to go. That's what's wrong with 20 this.
O
= 21 So, to me, the root evil here is get an g 22 effective corrective action program that identifies the l 23 problems and it fixes them. And all this other stuff 24 then goes away. It solves this thing and gets at the b
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3 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS MARCH 18, 1997 1 root of the problem. Right? So that's where I think 2 we are -- that's where I'm pushing Northeast Utilities
! 3 to go with this. Fix your corrective action program.
i 4 Right now we have what we call our 5 significant items list. And in there is a bunch of
, 6 ACR's and stuff. It's a list of stuff that's wrong at 7 Northeast Utilities. I'm trying to get the utility to i 8 get me a corrective action package that says, "This is i 9 what we did about that" and for us to be able to look 4
10 at it and go, "Yes. That makes sense." j
]g 11 Right now, we're turning stuff back to L;
12 them, saying, "You still haven't got the message. You
/}
13 still haven't got it right. You need to go back to the j 14 well and try it again because you still don't 15 understand that you have to be thorough, complete and 1
i 16 dot all the I's, cross all the T's and fix the
, 17 problem."
t i
! 18 So that's what we're in right now, is l
<; 19 the utility still today -- and our inspection report 20 tells me them that. 9609 says "You still can't get me
!O
= 21 a" effective corrective action package across -- if l
! 22 they can't get it to the NRC, that means all the other l
l 23 stuff that they're doing out there is suspect. I mean j 24 if we're the ultimate restart authority and they've got
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115 ;
HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O MARCH 18, 1997 1 to prove to us the corrective action program works, 2 don't you think they would do the best job possible on 3 these packages that they're giving to us? We don't see 4 it yet. There's some success and it's minimal. But 5 we're not there yet. And we're not going to let them 6 go anywhere until they get it right. That's the bottom 7 line. Okay? '
8 MR. REYNOLDS: That sounds good.
9 NR. McKEE: I might add one thing. The 10 thing I left in the back there, a safety-conscious work ,
g 11 environment, talks to that issue that you just brought !
=
12 up probably a lot better than I can say So I
'(]} it.
13 recommend you read that. And if you have comments on 14 that, provide them to the NRC. Thank you.
15 MR. REYNOLDS: I have a copy of it. And l
16 that brings me to the criteria that is needed to prove l 17 that the base line problem is taken care of because, l 18 although Paul thinks the Nuclear Safety Concerns
- 19 Program is working -- it probably is. But the base 20 line still is that you should be able to go to your o
a 21 supervisor and the problem be solved. And as of four l
g 22 weeks ago, it wasn't. An employee was fired for
! 23 supposedly other reasons, but there was four people 24 involved. One wasn't touched, two were given a week O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
116 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
.() MARCH 18, 1997 1 off and one was fired. The one that was fired had 2 brought up a safety concern three or four weeks before 3 that. The day of his termination they refused him to 4 go to the Nuclear Safety Concerns Program with his 5 concern. And that's a violation of the procedures.
i 6 He went to the NRC and the NRC said, 7 "We'll look into it." But, you know, it's too late.
8 The guy's fired. Once you're fired, you know, you're 9 labeled a troublemaker and everything else. Because 10 this particular person was boisterous about doing g 11 things right.
r'5 12 So, in order for this program to work --
(.)
13 and I'm not talking about the Nuclear Safety Concerns 14 Program. You can get facts and figures of a thousand 15 things brought up, a thousand things taken care of.
i 1 16 We've got to get to the basics, like Jacque said, as a l 17 the root cause. You should be able to go to your !
I 18 supervision. A lot of people won't go to a program. I
, . 19 never went to the Nuclear Safety Concerns Program after 20 the second time because my name went back to my o
. 21 supervisor before I even got there.
g 22 But what we have to establish is a time l 23 frame to make sure this works. And how are you going l
24 to be able to do that? If they just go to their
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117 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O a^aca 18, 1992 1 supervisors, are you going to investigate everybody 2 that's given time off or being terminated? How are you 3 going to do this? Are you going to take their word for 4 it?
- 5 MR. McKEE: One element of the order for l 6 the Independent Third-Party Organization is to develop 7 and look at indicators of a successful program. It's 8 also one thing we're trying to develop so that we can 9 independently make that call. I mean it's -- it's ;
10 acknowledged, you know, a tough area to find valid g 11 indicators in that area, how you assess that. We're 12 looking at what we can do to make just the type of 13 assessments that you're talking about, that the program 14 is moving forward and is successful.
15 I don't have a list of all those things.
16 There are certain things that can be looked at, number 17 of allegations, concerns forwarded, surveys. And I'm l 18 sure we'll use many of those instruments.
I
- 19 MR. REYNOLDS: Yes. But that's the 20 number of allegations that's brought forward to the j iO
. 21 Safety Concerns Program or to you or phone calls that I l 22 might get or Don might get on the outside. What type
.g
.l 23 of criteria are you going to use where we don't get j 24 these calls? A person raises a question, a safety
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118 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O anRCa 18, 1997 1 question, and later on he's -- he's a good employee.
2 He does everything they'say. Then, all of a sudden, 3 his evaluations start going down. This is the type of 4 thing. And this is not something you're going to find 5 out in a month, six months. It's going to take time.
6 And you've got to have something that you can go by to 7 determine this. That's quite a job. And this has been ,
8 the biggest problem at Northeast Utilities since I 9 worked there, is the way they treated their employees.
l 10 DR. TRAVERS: You're right. It is a big
'g 11 job. NRC very often is in the midst of a person who 12 feels they've been harassed or intimidated. Someone 13 comes to NRC and we have to initiate an investigation l
14 of that issue because fundamentally -- I 15 MR. REYNOLDS: Oh, I know all of that.
16 I've been through that.
17 DR. TRAVERS: Fundamentally --
I 18 MR. REYNOLDS: I know how they 1
19 investigate it, too.
20 DR. TRAVERS: The expectation that NRC O
= 21 has is that the utilities that we license create the I h g- 22 work environment that facilitates raising of safety 4
l 23 concerns and doesn't permit the kind of harassment,
- 24 intimidation that sometimes occurs and in the case of lO 4 POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 4
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b ll 119 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
() MARCH 18, 1997 i 1 Millstone has occurred in the past. So this is a big 2 issue at Millstone. We recognize it. And we recognize 3 the complexity of dealing with them as they arise.
4 They really are difficult issues sometimes to get to 5 the bottom line. It takes a lot of effort to do so.
6 MR. REYNOLDS: Okay. That brings me !
7 back to one of Jacque's comments about he's told the j 8 utilities this and they seem like -- that they don't do 9 it. I just wonder if the utilities still feels that 10 they can do or they -- I shouldn't say do. But they
{
)g 11 can suggest things to the NRC and the NRC still 12 believes them like they have for the past 20 years and i [ }-
13 they can get by with a lot of certain stuff and nothing 2
) 14 will be done about it, which is evidence in the way the 15 violations are handled, the apparent violations and the j 16 fines and the time it takes to do it and everything ;
1 I 17 else.
- ! 18 MR. DURR: Let me -- let me explain 4
I 19 because this has come up a couple of times tonight and f 20 apparently there is an interest in the time that it )
- o-
= 21 takes to do it. And I appreciate where you're coming t !
]g 22 from. I'm kind of frustrated myself.
l 23 But it's a lengthy process, this 24 escalated enforcement thing. First what happened is
(
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- 120 HEARING RE
- MILLSTONE UNITS I() MARCH 18, 1997 i
5 1 from late '95 through '96 we accumulated these some 60 2 or more violations. And then we categorized them into i
d 4
3 groups and then we held an enforcement conference with l h
4 the utility, because that's the process, for them to
]
- j. 5 present their side.
i l 6 Then that package --
and it's a 7 voluminous package. It's unprecedented in the NRC's i 8 history,- to the best of my knowledge, what we have in s
] 9 this package right now. To the best of my knowledge,
- 10 there's never been anything of that size go through the g 11 process.
i:
12 And the process now is that we prepare a
)
13 package that goes through upper management, through the i 14 Executive Director for Operations, will ultimately go j i
15 to the Commission for their review. So there -- it's a j
- 16 time-consuming thing. It's a legal process, You're
! 17 off into legalities. I mean if you look at how the
- 18 legal process works outside the NRC, if you shoot
'lI
- - 19 somebody tomorrow, you won't go to trial for another 20 three years because there's delays and people have to o
. 21 do investigations. There's ongoing investigations.
- i
{g 22 So this thing is time-consuming. It's l 23 coming. That's all I can tell you. It's in the 1 24 process. I can tell you today that the package is on
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l 1
l l
121 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS i l' MARCH 18, 1997 '
1 1 my desk. Okay? Getting ready to go forward. And it's 2 on its last leg of review before it leaves the Region 3 to go to Headquarters for their final review and i
4 presentation to the Commission. These things take l 5 time. And, like I say, it's a voluminous thing and 6 it's unprecedented, as far as I know, in the NRC.
1 7 So, you're right. It's a long time 1 8 coming. But I think once it gets through the other 9 side, we, the utility, the NRC, the public, will be the 10 better for it. I mean it will clear the air and give 11 us a base to start over again.
lg; l {} 12 MR. REYNOLDS: So we shouldn't have to 13 worry about -- just from the basis of what you just 14 said, we shouldn't have to worry about Unit 3 starting l 15 up in August or September?
16 MR. DURR: I don't know the answer to
- 17 that. It's up to the Commission. It's up to the
!! 18 Commission.
l 19 MR. REYNOLDS: Well, it takes a long ,
1 rl t
20 time to do this stuff. It takes a long time to assess l
! O
= 21 a fine.
g 22 MR. DURR: I would -- I would -- if I l
23 was a betting man, which I'm not because I always lose, 24 but if I were a betting man, it's probably a horse race O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
l
122 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS l MARCH 18, 1997 1 right now with that package and start-up. They're 2 going to be close together. But that's the best I can 3 tell you right now.
l 4 MR. REYNOLDS: But that goes back to the I 5 fact how are we going to be able to establish the fact l
6 that their program for handling employees' concerns, I
7 not through the Employee Concerns Program, but by -- l 8 through management, that there's no harassment and 9 intimidation and people getting fired?
10 MR. McKEE: That's one purpose of our g 11 order and our whole process. Exactly ther. To I q
U 12 establish -- because of problems that were identified !
13 both in the technical and ICAVP, employee concerns, i l
14 that's exactly the reason we have these unprecedented 15 programs to make, you know -- to help us make that
)
16 assessment. And those calls have to be made prior to 17 start-up. So -- do you have some other -- do you have
! 18 anything else?
I
- 19 MR. REYNOLDS: Yes, but it can wait.
20 MR. McKEE: Okay. I think --
Ms. l 0 I
. 21 Luxton? l 1
g 22 MR. LANNING: While Susan is coming up l 23 to the microphone, on this subject my introductory 24 comments this evening when I said that Unit 3 was going POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i
123 g HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS MARCH 18, 1997 1 to be the first unit to restarr. as characterized by 2 today's meeting, that is not factual. What is factual 3 is that Unit 3 will be the first to have -- to do the 4 ICAVP program. And it's still undetermined as to which 5 unit will start up first.
6 DR. TRAVERS: But this is their 7 schedule.
8 MR. LANNING: This is their schedule, 9 what we were told today.
10 Susan.
11 MS. LUXTON: Hi. I'd like to talk about 12 Little Harbor Consultants for a moment. Little Harbor 13 Consultants -- I was looking back at it in the last few 14 weeks since we last met. And I realized that they had 15 done no prior work specifically for the function that 16 they're going to be doing for NU. And so they were 17 really just formed specifically for the job that l 18 they're going to do for NU. Am I right on that? I'm
- 19 pretty sure that's --
20 MR. McKEE: Not -- they were formed --
o
. 21 it's an "S" corporation that was formed several years g 22 ago. And the way it's set up, it's really essentially l 23 a one-person corporatic n. And my understanding is that 24 -- not for Northeast Utilities. He's done other work, O POST REPORTING SERVICE l HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i
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124 73 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
(,) MARCH 18, 1997 1 you know, other work and aspects by gathering people in 2 to do various other jobs. So Little Harbor 3 Consultants, I don't think it would be right to 4 characterize that it was formed specifically to do this 5 task.
6 MS. LUXTON: Are you sure? Are you sure 7 about that?
8 MR. McKEE: That's the purpose of Little 9 Harbor right now to do this task. But they were formed 10 before and accomplished other tasks in the past for --
g 11 MS. LUXTON: But not the specific kind
{} 12 of work they're going to do for NU with the Employee 1
13 Concerns Program. i 14 MR. McKEE: Right. Not this specific 15 kind of work, as far as I understand. I'm not sure 16 exactly of the details.
17 MS. LUXTON: I know. I think that I 18 concerned me because they had never done this kind of I
19 work before for Employee Concerns Program.
20 Okay. Now, another part is the East --
O
= 21 it used to be called IOTECH but now you changed it to b
g 22 whatever it is about the BOP or BIP or something. ECP b 23 oversight. Why does there need to be management on 24 that oversight team of the Employee Concerns Program?
O v
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l 125 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
() MARCH 18, 1997 1 Because I don't see a management --
I don't see a l 2 management component necessary because management 3 doesn't go to the Employee Concerns Program. They just 4 4 go to upper management. Right?
5 If management has a concern, they go to j 6 Mr. Kenyon or who is the next in line before Mr. Kenyon 7 and then eventually to Mr. Kenyon. ECP, Employee 8 Concerns, is really just for -- what do they call them?
9 -- non-exempt or regular employees, employee people who 10 find they can't go to their management becaase they're
'g 11 not being -- their problem isn't being solved with
(-]
wg 12 management. So they go to ECP.
13 So I don't understand why there has to 14 be a management component on the oversight of the ECP 15 program. Do you understand what I mean?
16 MR. McKEE: I think I understand your 17 comment. One thing, management --
just one
'i 18 clarification. Management, if they have issues, I
- 19 think can go to the Employee Concerns Program.
20 MS, LUXTON: Oh, they can?
O
. 21 MR. McKEE: Yes. I'm fairly certain of I
g 22 that. It's open to any employee and management, you
, l 23 know, is an employee.
24 MS. LUXTON: Okay. Okay.
(~)
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126 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
() MARCH 18, 1997 l
1 MR. McKEE: But --
2 MS. LUXTON: I guess my understanding 3 was management just goes up the chain of management.
4 But -- all right, i
5 Now, the next thing I have to say is I 6 need to -- Mr. Durr --
is he here? Yes. This l
7 afternoon -- I was very impressed with all of you this 8 afternoon. I thought you were very hard-hitting and l
9 very strong with the utility today. I like it when you 10 do that. I mean sometimes you're not as strong. And I Ig 11 see you're coming on much stronger publicly. And I was i;
12 very pleased to see that. I do say some nice things
'{
13 about you sometimes. Yes.
14 Now, Mr. Durr, you know, you were j 15 talking today about the soft issues.
16 MR. DURR: Yes.
1 17 MS. LUXTON: I think it was you.
18 MR. DURR: Yes.
l 19 MS. LUXTON: And they were talking all 20 about their hardware issuer and what they're going to
'O
= 21 do and they were doing 2 ', r little pony show and l
1 g_ 22 whatever they do. And then you were saying, "But the r l 23 soft issues are what's really going to be hard to, you 4
l 24 know, identify the changes that occur within a culture
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2 127 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS i
() MARCH 18, 1997 I
1 and how are they going to have a performance indicators ,
2 for those.
l j 3 And I need you to hear what I think I 1 i 4 about these soft issues because what I'm seeing is 5 occurring -- and I don't want to take a lot of time ;
I j 6 because Delcore did a pretty good job on it previously. l j 7 But now you have to understand what happened to the y i 8 citizens when we came forward 18 months ago and started
't 9 asking questions after we read in the paper what was 10 going on with the refueling issue.
g 11 You have to understand none of us were 12 revolutionaries. None of us were anti-nuclear. We
[}
13 just lived in town and we were concerned for our safety 14 and our families' safety. And we started asking the 15 questions. And immediately, the utility took the tack i 16 of denial and not wanting to answer any questions, i
17 would not come to any meetings, and immediately started l I 18 to discredit us.
19 And how they did that, if you don't 20 remember -- I was going to bring it tonight, but I O l
= 21 forgot -- is they put out a memo that said, "Lest there i
g 22 be any doubt --
they said this to their 2,500 l 23 employees. They said, "Lest there be any doubt, anti-24 nuclear activists from around the country are O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
128 7- HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS (S) MARCH 18, 1997 1 converging in Waterford, on Millstone, to shut down the 2 plant and take away 2,500 jobs."
3 Now, that is when a small group of us 4 here just asked questions. They immediately 5 categorized us as coming from outside the -- you know, 6 our town and trying to shut down the plant. It was 7 shocking to see a reaction like that from a utility in 8 our town. Okay? So that is the way it started for us.
9 And what I'm seeing now -- and I must 10 stress this to you that you have to be our advocates on g 11 this. I'm seeing that this present management, which I
(} 12 had high hopes for -- because when Mr. Kenyon came in 13 and also this Buzz Carnes came in and he stood up in 14 front of us and said, "We've got to be forthright with 15 the public" -- I don't know if you were there at that 16 meeting. I don't remember if it was the NEAC one or 17 whatever last month he said, Carnes I'm talking about 18 said, "You know, the problem with the industry has 19 been, especially the TMI, that we were arrogant. We 20 didn't -- we weren't forthright with the public. We O
< 21 were secretive. And we've got to change all that."
g 22 And I thought, "This guy's great. He's really -- it's b 23 true what he's saying." Okay?
24 But now what he's doing and what he has n
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MARCH 18, 1997 3 1 been doing in the last couple of weeks is -- and this 2 was an example of it today with this letter he read i
3 which he had no reason -- I don't'see any reason to 4 read a letter like that in front of all these i
1
- 5 management. There was a lot of NU management here
! 6 today. And what it is, it's a very divisive thing. It i
j 7 pits management, even subtly, or anybody who works at j 8 NU against us who live here, i
j 9 Now, I don't have anything against any
, '10 of them. I mean I -- if the plants start up and g 11 they're safe,.it's okay. It's okay. I don't want to
~
12 shut down the plants forever. I'm not on trial here,
).
13 am I? No. I don't have to tell them all the truth and f
14 nothing but the truth. No. I mean in my wildest 15 dreams I'd love it to be a solar-powered facility out t
l 16 there or something. But if that can't happen and they 4
17 can prove to us, to me, that they're going to be safe, 18 that's fine.
llI
[. '
19 But I think what Mr. Carnes is doing is 20 he is modeling very negative behavior. And that's a
.O
. 21 soft issue thing. Because he said today, "The way
- I g 22 we're going to change the soft issue is that management'
$l 23 is going to model the kind of behavior we want the i
- 24 employees to see." And he's modeling improper
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130 f HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS (g MARCH 18, 1997 1 behavior. That is not good, you know -- that's not a 2 good way to act toward us or towards anybody who arks 3 questions. We have every right and responsibility as )
4 citizens in this town to ask this utility questions.
5 I'm very concerned about this. And I i 6 need you to keep an eye on it. I'm bringing it up to j 7 you and you've got to keep an eye on this because I'm 8 going to keep an eye on this. And next month when I
9 there's a meeting, we'll see what happens. )
10 A VOICE: Susan, what was in the g 11 letter?
12 MR. DURR: Well, can --
13 MS. LUXTON: Go ahead.
14 MR. DURR: Can I respond to you a bit?
i 15 It's very difficult to become detached from this 16 process, 17 MS. LUXTON: Who? You? For you?
l 18 MR. DURR: Yes. For anybody. For i: 19 anybody. Because there's a lot of emotion, you know, 20 with it.
O l
. 21 MS. LUXTON: Oh, absolutely. l 1
g 22 MR. DURR: So, from my perspective and l 23 what we as managers in the NRC constantly have to be on 24 guard is don't question motivation for you or for O POST REPORTING SERVICE i
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131 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS (s) , MARCH 18, 1997 1 anybody else. So when an alleger comes to us, we don't 2 say, "Well, now, is this guy really on the up-and-up or 3 is he trying to slip one under the door?" You can't do 4 that. We can't do that. I don't know about anybody 5 else. But we, the NRC, cannot --
6 A VOICE: (Inaudible comment) 7 MR. DURR: I'm sorry?
8 A VOICE: You need a policy change.
9 MR. DURR: I still didn't hear what you 10 said. But you cannot question the motivation of an g 11 individual who is bringing you information. You have 12 to assume that it's on the up-and-up. And until you 13 can prove otherwise, you go with that.
14 So the allegation process or anything 15 when a public citizen comes to us, we don't go "Does 16 Susan really want to shut that plant down? Is that 17 what she's really trying to do, but she's using me as a I 18 pawn?" We don't do that. We cannot afford to do that i i: 19 because it undermines the process until it becomes
!r 20 totally ineffective. l 0
= 21 What we have to assume is that when I
g 22 Susan comes to us with something, that it's on the up-l 23 and-up. And until we can prove otherwise, we have to 24 go with that.
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132 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O a^xca 18' 1997 l 1 MS. LUXTON: Okay. So what's your 2 point?
l l
3 MR. DURR: So when you -- i i i
! 4 MS. LUXTON: Regarding him, what he's 5 saying today?
6 MR. DURR: When this guy over here -- I 1
7 don't question his motives nor do I question what he l l l 8 says what your motives are. I discount those. I don't )
9 go for motives. I go for the facts. That's all I can f 10 deal with is fact. So when Mr. Carnes says that the .
l- l g 11 public is really -- it's a sinister plot, I turn that 12 off because I can't deal with that. That's not --I l 13 have to deal with the facts. I 14 MS. LUXTON: That's okay. All right.
15 You can turn that off. That's fine. I'm worried about l
- 16 the people in the audience who he's subtly being l 17 influenced by. He's their bons. He's the entire head
- I 18 of the site. Everybody who works for him looks up to
. 19 him.
20 MR. DURR: Sure.
lO l = 21 MS. LUXTON: To model, you know, the g 22 proper management behavior. So if he's subtly saying, l 23 "It's those guys' fault that are asking all the l 24 questions, that small group of vocal minority" --
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133 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
(.s) MARCH 18, 1997 1 that's exactly what it said in the DPUC final audit 2 report of Millstone management over the last ten years.
3 They had a penchant to blame people outside the 4 company. And I see that's what he's doing again in a 5 subtle way. That's all.
6 MR. DURR: Okay.
7 MS. LUXTON: Thanks.
8 MR. LANNING: Okay. Ms. Luxton has 9 opened up the general discussion. So we'll continue l l
10 with general questions and comments.
11 Mr. Markowicz?
~
(~g 12 MR. JOHN MARKOWICZ: Good evend: . Good LJ 13 to see you again. This is sort of a follow-up to some 14 of the action items or the requests that were made a 15 month ago when we met and also some statements and 16 questions about the presentations that were made this 17 afternoon.
l 18 When we met back in February, I asked if 19 it would be poecible to obtain a list of contracts, 20 statements of work and dollar values, that exist O
. 21 currently and for the past five years between the NRC k
g 22 and Sergeant & Lundy and Parsons Power and Little l 23 Harbor Consultants and their consultants since they're 24 independent contractors. And we're having a NEAC O POST REPORTING SERVICE KAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
~
134 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
( MARCH 19, 1997 1 meeting on Thursday. It would be useful if we could 2 have that information.
3 MR. IMBRO: Yes. We -- we sent that to 4 NEAC, at least the Sergeant & Lundy contract. You 5 should have that.
6 DR. TRAVERS: And we cc.d Mr. Markowicz, 7 I thought.
8 MR. IMBRO: Yes. I thought we cc.d you.
9 I'd have to check and see if it got out.
1 10 MR. MARKOWICZ: Yes.
11 MR. IMBRO: I'll talk to you after.
( 12 Give me your address and I'11 send you a copy.
13 MR. MARKOWICZ: Well, if you sent it to i 14 NEAC --
15 MR. IMBRO: Yes. Ms. Concannon --
16 MR. MARKOWICZ: If we can have it for 17 the meeting on Thursday --
l 18 Also, we asked if there would be a I 19 significant issues list developed for Millstone Plants 20 1 and 2 similar to the one for Millstone 3. And we O
. 21 were assured we would have that. And has that been I
g 22 distributed or prepared?
l 23 MR. LANNING: It's been prepared. It 24 has not been signed off by Mr. Travers yet.
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
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~
HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
,/ MARCH 18, 1997 1
1 MR. MARKOWICZ: So it's -- 30 days?
2 MR. LANNING: It's a draft. We expect I 3 to issue it in the next week or so. I 4 MR. MARKOWICZ: Okay. I also suggested i
5 that in your due diligence of Little Harbor ,
l 6 Consultants, instead of Sub-chapter S corporation, you 7 check for the financial, possible financial 8 encumbrances between officers and directors of Little 9 Harbor Consultants and Northeast Utilities. And the 10 question is have you had a chance to do that yet? And g 11 if so, are there any?
12 MR. McKEE: That's one factor we're l (')T x._ [
13 considering. And, you know, in the approval process we 14 may be looking for certifications from both Northeast i 15 Utilities and Little Harbor to that effect.
16 MR. MARKOWICZ: I also noted at the last 17 meeting that Billie Garde's statement of independence, lI 18 certification of independence, was significantly 1- 19 deficient in that it struck out a key phrase. And I 20 have two questions about that. Are there any other o
l
. 21 individuals that have certified independence on any of l1 g 22 the contracts, either Parsons Power or Sergeant & Lundy l 23 or Little Harbor Consultants, also struck out clauses 24 on their independence certification or is Billie Garde o
u POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
136 l HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS I if~
s_j)
MARCH 18, 1997 l l
l 1 the only one?
l 2 DR. TRAVERS: I'm not sure if I 3 understand. Maybe you can explain it to us? l 4 MR. MARKOWICZ: If you look at the 5 certifications that are provided, the one-page 6 statements that are in the proposal, they have certain 7 check-offs for things. And in some cases, they 8 indicate years of distance between NU and themselves 9 for certain levels of work, which of themselves merit 10 some consideration. But Billie Garde's is more g 11 significant than that because wherein she notes zero i
(~s. 12 years separation, she also strikes out a phrase, a LJ 13 phrase that directly relates to the work that she will 14 be doing. I noted that at the last meeting together.
15 And I'm now asking have you reviewed it and come to a 16 position on that? And are there any other individuals 17 from any of the other ICAVP -- ITPOP consultants that l 18 have done that?
- 19 MR. McKEE: With respect to Ms. Garde 20 and that one statement, all those factors about her o
. 21 participation are, I believe, addressed in the g 22 licensee's relaxation request, letter, that they sent a
l 23 in describing her activities and how they would 24 restrict her involvement, you know, in the process O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
137 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()
fs MARCH 18, 1997 1 based on her previous activity. And I don't believe 2 anybody else on the certifications for Little Harbor 3 struck out anything in the certifications.
4 MR. MARKOWICZ: I'm just suggesting 5 since sometime we in the NEAC don't get everything and 6 that was something that we noted -- :
7 MR. McKEE: Yes.
8 MR. MARKOWICZ: --
that some due 9 diligence on those forms is certainly required to look ]
i 10 at what doea zero years mean if they put in zero and if
]
11 there were strike-outs. And so I'm just suggesting if
(~N 12 it hasn't been done, that you do it. And I think that )
%.]
13 -- I understand the relaxation request that the utility 14 has put in on Garde and I think Wood. But I do note 15 for the record that Bille Garde did strike out a couple 16 of words on her independence statement.
17 MR. McKEE: Okay. Thank you.
! 18 MR. MARKOWICZ: At the meeting this
- 19 morning, there was a discussion about --
this 20 afternoon, there was a discussion that you folks O
. 21 brought up regarding work that Parsons Power Company --
I 22 they bought Gilbert Associates, I guess -- did for g
l 23 Northeast Utilities on MOV HELP and the CMP program.
24 And I would ask that -- I think they were asked to
/~T V POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
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i I
138 t
HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
() MARCH 18, 1997 1
1 provide some information. If we could have a copy of 2 that, the -Nuclear Energy Advisory Council would 3 appreciate that.
4 MR. IMBRO: Sure. That was provided on 5 the docket. So you should be able to get it through 6 the PDR. Well, we can send it to you, I suppose.
7 We'll make sure that the licensee sends you a copy.
8 How's that?
9 MR. MARKOWICZ: That's fine. That's ;
10 fine. I mean it's been pretty good. I mean we've been g 11 getting most of the copies. Since some of these things j
=
12 came up, I'm just trying to follow up on them.
{
13 There was a discussion this afternoon 14 about the 12-month restriction on Parsons Power, how
( 15 different it is from the Sergeant & Lundy and the -- I l
16 guess Little Harbor Consultants restriction in that 17 they will be required to a 12-month restriction on work l 18 with Northeast Utilities. But as currently written, 1
- 19 Parsons Power was with Millstone. And there was a 20 discussion about -- there was no position with the NRC O
< 21 --
I g 22 MR. IMBRO: We're going to make them the l 23 same.
- 24 MR. MARKOWICZ
- Okay. So that's just
- POST REPORTING SERVICE l
HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
l
s t
139 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS-MARCH'18, 1997 1 going to follow -- Mr. Kenyon said that he'd do it'if 2 you told him to. And I'm just trying to find out.
3 MR. IMBRO: Yes. We've told him to do 4 it. ,
5 MR. MARKOWICZ: Okay. I was feeling 6 kind of bad for Sergeant & Lundy and -- f 7 MR. IMBRO: That's right.
8 MR. MARKOWICZ: --
Little Harbor 9 Consultants so they would have an issue.
10 MR. IMBRO: We treat them all fairly.
11 MR. MARKOWICZ: You also made a point 12 this afternoon about insisting that 19 topical areas
,}
{
13 for ICAVP systems be completed, the review of those 14 topical areas be reviewed and completed prior to the 15 ICAVP. And there was a discussion about having a 16 meeting. Is it a fair understanding that your position 17 is that that review of those 19 topical areas- for the l 18 ICAVP systems will be completed --
I
- 19 MR. IMBRO: Yes.
20 MR. MARKOWICZ: --
before --
okay.
O
= 21 After the meeting, there was a discussion with the g- 22 utility and I asked a question and I learned something l 23 I didn't realize; that the order for the ICAVP 24 contractor applies to the discovery period of the O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
140 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O x^*ca 18, 1997 1 restart process.
2 MR. IMBRO: That's right.
3 MR. MARKOWICZ: Okay. And I asked a 4 question. I backed into that because I'm -- you know, 5 discovery period, I'm not that familiar with it. But 1
6 what I learned was that because that is the process, it 7 is possible that the utility will present to the ICAVP 8 contractor systems for review against which at least 9 modifications are pending or other things are pending. !
10 MR. IMBRO: That's right.
g 11 MR. MARKOWICZ: Could there be 12 deficiencies pending? In other words --
13 MRs IMBRO: Sure. Because the 14 modificad ons would be to resolve a deficiency.
15 MR. MARKOWICZ: Except for the 16 modification. Say something's broken, the valve is 17 broken and they intend to fix it at some point.
18 That's, in fact, a fair characterization of how these
- 19 systems can be presented? They can be presented to the 20 ICAVP contractor with known list of deficiencies?
O
= 21 MR. IMBRO: That's right.
l
~g 22 MR. MARKOWICZ: Do you have a threshold, l 23 therefore, that you have whereby if a system has "X" 24 number of deficiencies, you will not accept it?
O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
l l
i 141 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE IINITS MARCH 18, 1997 1 MR. IMBRO: No. No. Because the --
2 what the ICAVP is trying to do is trying to verify that l
3 the licensee's configuration management program has 4 identified all deficiencies. So even though they may 5 not be fixed yet, the ICAVP is the test that they're 6 smart enough to figure out all their problems. And, of 7 course, we're going to make sure that they correct 8 them. So -- l 9 MR. MARKOWICZ: Okay. I understand.
10 MR. IMBRO: That's why we said discovery 11 phase.
g )
=
\
12 MR. MARKOWICZ: Okay. Now, will, l
13 therefore, there be a follow-up by the ICAVP contractor j l
14 of corrective action -- l 15 MR. IMBRO: Yes.
16 MR. MARKOWICZ: --
taken on those 17 systems?
l 18 MR. IMBRO: Yes.
I
- 19 MR. MARKOWICZ: So the ICAVP period 20 could extend until restart. Is that theoretically C
. 21 possible?
l g 22 MR. IMBRO: It could. Sure.
l 23 MR. MARKOWICZ: I'm just saying that 24 because --
O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
l 142 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS MARCH 18, 1997 1 MR. IMBRO: That's one of the --
2 MR. MARKOWICZ: --
of the work force 3 issues --
4 MR. IMBRn: If you remember what I was j 5 asking was trying to get a time frame for when they 6 were going to do the corrective action in terms of 7 developing modification pa.:kages, et cetera. And they 8 pretty much indicated that those were going to be done l
9 contemporaneously with the finding. In other words, if j 10 CMP found a deficiency or found something that needed 11 to be fixed, that that engineering would start almost 12 immediately or they would farm that out. It would be 13 done outside of CMP by others to try and resolve the 14 problem.
15 MR. MARKOWICZ: I'm not challenging you 16 on that. I'm just trying to be --
17 MR. IMBRO: No. I'm trying to get you I 18 more information is all. Yes.
I 19 A VOICE: The difference between the 20 engineering package and the actual implementation --
O
< 21 MR. MARKOWICZ: Right. They said they b
g 22 would develop the package and then put a place holding l l 23 it out there and that stuff.
24 MR. IMBRO: Yes. What we -- what Mr.
n POST REPOR."ING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
143
, HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS tg MARCH 18, 1997 1 Travers is pointing out is we say we're going to look 2 at corrective actions. The ICAVP will look at the 3 engineered fix. But we recognize that it may not be 4 totally implemented. In other words, they may have 5 redesigned the system because -- to fix a deficiency.
6 But that may not be -- well, what the ICAVP needs to 7 focus on is the fact that the design change needs to be 8 completed, at least engineered and drawings need to be 9 revised and that type of thing. So they have to have 10 an approved change package. And that may not 11 necessarily be installed. We also would ensure that g
~
12 that gets fixed before restart. But that's kind of a (v]
13 separate --
14 MR. MARKOWICZ: Okay.
15 MR. IMBRO: Separate issue.
16 MR. MARKOWICZ: Okay. I understand.
17 Now, just to go one further step, are there going to be l I 18 criteria that the NRC will provide to the ICAVP
- 19 contractor that says, "For your processes if you reach I 20 'X' number of deficiencies, stop the problem"?
O
. 21 MR. IMBRO: No.
I g 22 MR. MARKOWICZ: How does that happen l 23 then?
24 MR. IMBRO: We'll be --
well, again, POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
144 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
() MARCH 18, 1997 1 we've discussed this before. But we'll be monitoring, 2 monitoring what the ICAVP finds, first, because we're l
3 going to do --
first we'll have implementation l
4 inspection. But even other than -- aside from taat is 5 that there's going to be the dual reporting. So as 6 ICAVP discovers problems that they found, then they 7 will be reporting to NRC. And then based on that and 8 on our inspection information, then we can judge based 9 on the severity of the issue or the number of issues -- l 10 and that's a judgment that we'll make to determine I l
11 g whether or not we call a halt to the ICAVP process or t
12 we ask them to expand the scope or whatever it is we 13 do. I mean, you know, it's kind of -- you can't make a 14 judgment until you really understand what you're 15 looking at. But we have that built into our process or 16 our thinking. But there's no hard and fast criteria.
17 DR. TRAVERS: If I could just add?
4 l 18 MR. IMBRO: Sure?
19 DR. TRAVERS: But, again, one thing we ir 20 would fully expect to do as we get knowledge on the
, O
. 21 status of what ICAVP is finding or not is we intend to g 22 have these kinds of meetings and talk about our 3
l 23 assessment of the significance of the findings. I I 24 think we've even talked about having the ICAVP come and O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l 1
1
145 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS I MARCH 18, 1997 1 give a briefing to NEAC, for example, to discuss the 2 significance of the kinds of findings that --
3 MR. MARKOWICZ: I understand. I was 4 wondering whether you had already come to some closure 5 on what the out-of-bounds limits were. And I just 6 wondered what your answer --
7 DR. TRAVERS: I think it would be 8 complicated to expect that we could reasonably do that. !
9 MR. MARKOWICZ: So you will be providing 10 technical direction to the ICAVP contractor in real g 11 time. And that gets to my final statement.
12 DR. TRAVERS: Yes.
13 MR. MARKOWICZ: Final question. I've 14 given this speech about half a dozen times and I've 15 asked for protocols or some kind of mechanism whereby 16 there is a review process of ICAVP contractor 17 performance independent of Northeast Utilities prior to I 18 authorizing invoice payment. Is that a dead duck?
- 19 MR. IMBRO: We're not going to do it.
20 MR. MARKOWICZ: Excuse me?
O 4 21 MR. IMBRO: I mean there's really no way ;
I g 22 -- no process to do that. I mean that's not really our l 23 -- you answer it.
24 DR. TRAVERS: If I can give you sort of POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
146 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
() MARCH 18, 1997 1 the fundamental, in our view, bottom line to that 2 issue? The bottom line on the performance of the ICAVP 3 contractor is they're either going to meet our 4 expectations in the way they perform -- and I'm talking 5 about NRC now -- or they're not. And if they don't, 6 it's up to, in our estimation of things, NU to develop 7 whatever contractual vehicle they need to protect r; themselves. They have to recognize, in my view -- and 9 we're not going to do it for them -- the potential for 10 that happening.
g 11 Our assessment is going to be focused on 12 the outcome and performance of ICAVP, not in the way NU 13 goes about protecting themselves or paying for this 14 contractor or not.
15 And that's just really a function of our 16 typical mission. And our mission, with the limited 17 resources that we really can bring to bear on an aspect
! 18 like this, has to be focused and it has to be focused I. 19 on the outcome.
20 MR. MARKOWICZ: I understand your O
. 21 position. I have to tell you in all sincerity, it's 8-22 regrettable. It is certainly a significant departure g
l 23 from what we felt Shirley Jackson promised us last 24 August in this room. She promised independence. And O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
l l
l 147 l
,g
, HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS l
() MARCH 18, 1997 1 the process that has been defined and redefined does 2 not past the common-sense threshold for independence.
3 And you can do what you can do, but the public who has 4 an input into the restart process that are sitting here 5 don't accept that.
6 Thank you. ;
7 MR. LANNING: Mr. Delcore? l 8 MR. DELCORE: I kind of want to reaffirm 9 what I had said originally and what Susan Luxton had 10 discussed with regard to the Employee Concerns Program 4
g 11 and the demeanor of the management that we're dealing 12 with.
(~%]
G 13 Let's go back to February 1. And I i
14 think actually I completed it on the 3rd and faxed it 15 to Shirley Jackson. But it was a letter, which, after 16 reviewing two inspection reports, I believe 9606 and 17 9608, I wrote a letter which pretty much identified 18 much of the existing problems at Millstone 1, 2,
. 19 Connecticut Yankee and the ICAVP.
20 And I faxed that off to her on the 3rd.
o
. 21 And by a means I will not discuss with you, Mr. Kenyon 22 got it the next day. And before the -- one of his l 23 employee lectures with regard to answering questions on 24 the status and what employee questions were and where O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
__ _ _ _ _ - - - . . _. .. . _ . _ _ __ . .~. _
148 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()
MARCH 18, 1997 1 the problems were and so forth, he did a reasonably 2 good job of attacking me for writing that letter to 3 Shirley Jackson.
4 NEAC had a meeting subsequent to that, L 5 on the 13th of February, and I had about a 14 or 15-6 question group that I got up and asked. And, l 7 incidentally, that was the first night that Mr. Carnes 8 was kind of exposed to the world here. And the next
- 9 day, he made a tour of Unit 2. And during that tour, l
10 Mr. Carnes asked the management and technicians --
l 11 pardon me -- of my son's department if he shared my
- g 12 views about Millstone. And that's the type of
[}
i 13 management that you're dealing with.
14 And I would say right now that you 15 gentlemen better take some action to stop that. And 16 you better take some very decisive action to proteel my 17 son or there's going to be some hell to pay.
I 18 Thank you.
I
- 19 MR. LANNING: You're next.
20 MR. FROMMER: I have some questions for 0
e 21 you I wanted to ask with respect to the Employee i!
lg 22 Concerns Program. Under existing Federal law of the l 23 NRC, can the NRC overturn a decision -- I'm just 24 asking. I don't know. Can the NRC overturn a decision POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
1 1
149 l HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
) MARCH 18, 1997 1 of NU on a safety issue only to fire somebody? )
2 Let me re-ask the question. Under 3 existing Federal law of the NRC, does the NRC have the 4 power only on the safety concern issue, nothing else, l 5 to overturn a decision of Northeast Utilities or any l 6 utility to fire someone? I don't know. I'm asking 7 you.
8 MR. LANNING: None of us here are 9 attorneys. And you're really asking a legal question.
10 MR. FROMMER: Well, the reason I'm g 11 asking --
i ,
(N 12 MR. LANNING: And I don't know the 1
\_) i 13 answer.
14 MR. FROMMER: Well, the reason I'm 15 asking you the question -- all right. Maybe Mr. Durr 16 knows.
17 MR. DURR: Yes. Let me -- let me give
! 18 you what -- and this is -- let me -- this is not the 19 NRC's answer. This is what I believe to be true. ,
20 Okay? This is the best that I think you're going to O
< 21 get tonight.
k g 22 The process by which employees are l 23 protected is under the Department of Labor. Now it's 24 under, I think, OSHA.
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150 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()
MARCH 18, 1997 1 MR. DELCORE: OSHA. February 28.
2 MR. DURR: It went under OSHA. But it 3 was under the Department of Labor. We have -- the only i 4 way that an employee can be made whole is through that !
l 5 process.
6 MR. FROMMER: Okay.
7 MR. DURR: The NRC can independently of 8 the Department of the Labor at the time or OSHA now 9 take enforcement against the utility, but we cannot 10 make the individual whole.
11 MR. FROMMER: Well, perhaps you may want 12 to look at trying to get some of the laws changed. And
)
13 I'm just making a suggestion. Right now, under the 14 Civil Service Reform Act -- and I think most of you are ,
l 15 familiar with this. But under the Civil Service Reform 16 Act, there is what's called a U.S. Merit System 17 Protection Board and a special council. i l 18 And I think it would be a very good idea
. 19 for the NRC to petition the Congress for the creation 20 of a safety-conscious protection board within tihe NRC O
. 21 to serve the same purpose as guaranteed to Federal I 22 employees, also the whistle-blower provisions to g
-l 23 Federal employees under Merit System -- under the Civil 24 Service Reform Act. That's just that issue.
O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
151 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
() MARCH 18, 1997 1 Now, with respect to the ICAVP, I've 4
2 done configuration audits with the Navy on weapons :
3 systems, so I have some idea of where you're coming '
4 from. It seems, from what I can gather from what we're 1
5 talking about here, essentially the ICAVP, if I can put 6 it into simplistic terms, is to verify that the utility 7 and its base line design is trackable, traceable, that 8 every component and every change to every component by 9 virtue of design is traceable and that the 10 configuration of the changed system is completely and J g 11 totally identifiable. Am I correct? l
{} 12 MR. IMBRO: Yes. I 13 MR. FROMMER: Okay.
14 MR. DURR: Well, I think it goes beyond 15 that, though.
16 MR. FROMMER: I said simplistically.
17 MR. DURR: Okay. Simplistically that's i
18 true. j
_I
- 19 MR. FROMMER: Okay? Now, you're going 20 to ask the utility -- or you've asked the utility or O ,
< 21 you're permitting the utility, in terms of its l l
g 22 deficiencies with respect to configuration management, l 23 to make selections into which deficiencies it thinks 24 you should or would like you to look at. Is that a O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
152 f HEARING RF: MILLSTONE UNITS
( MARCH 18, 1997 1 correct statement? No?
2 MR. IMBRO: No.
3 MR. FROMMER: Could you --
4 MR. IMBRO: Say that question again?
5 MR. FROMMER: If I understand the 6 process right now of the ICAVP, the utility will make 7 suggestions into topical areas of deficiencies --
8 MR. IMBRO: No.
l 9 MR. FROMMER: No. Okay. Could you 10 correct me?
l g 11 MR. IMBRO: Well, the ICAVP basically is
{} 12 13 going to be able to -- well, they're going to focus on the deficiencies that are in the systems that they look 14 at and they'll look at all of them.
15 MR. FROMMER: They're going to look at 16 every single deficiency?
17 MR. IMBRO: In those systems. But on I 18 top of that, we're going to also be looking at other i: 19 systems, we, NRC.
20 DR. TRAVERS: But the one aspect of your O
. 21' question ought to be clearer on that. And that has to g 22 do with the input, if any, that the utility has into l 23 it. They don't have any.
24 MR. FROMMER: They don't have any. So l'l R-POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
i 1
d
- 153 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
() MARCH 18, 1997 l
1 is there a selection process or am I led to believe l 2 that every single deficiency will be looked at or are 3 you going to be doing a sampling process?
4 DR. TRAVERS: It's a selection process. l 5 'It's a sample and is selected by NRC and/or some other 6 organization like the NEAC.
7 MR. FROMMER: And what's the criteria ,
8 that you're going to use for the selection of the !
l sample?
9 10 MR. IMBRO: Well, I mean a number of 11 things. We're going to, you know, weigh risk
~
12 significance of the systems. We're going to look at
{
13 whether or not the systems have been modified and to i
14 what extent they've been modified, the complexity of 15 the system modifications. l 16 DR. TRAVFRS: Historical problems.
17 MR. FROMMER: Okay. I'm just asking i
! 18 questions. I'm not making statements. I'm just trying
. 19 to get some insight.
20 MR. IMBRO: That's fine.
O
. 21 MR. FROMMER: Okay. Thank you.
g 22 MR. LANNING: Okay. You're next please, l 23 sir.
24 MR. BILL SHEEHAN: Bill Sheehan. I want O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
154 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
() MARCH 18, 1997 1 to change the topic. I want to talk about training 2 and, to use a term I'm used to from the Navy, crew 3 readiness, and ask you -- one of the key situations in 4 bringing, restoring the plants and starting them up and 5 so on and bringing them back into operation is the 6 cohesiveness, the teamwork and the training of the 7 personnel that are going to be standing the watches in 8 the plant while it's coming up, upgrading and so on.
9 The disheartening results of the reactor 10 operator exams for Millstone 1 and some other 11 indications that I've seen indicate that possibly that
~
12 the Millstone -- and some actions that the utility has (J3 13 taken show that the training program at Millstone, 14 which, in my memory, used to have a very vaunted 15 reputation, has got similar holes that the hardware 16 has, that the FSAR and the design basis and so on has.
17 So my question to you folks is what's
! 18 your program and how do you plan to monitor the
- i. 19 readiness of the people as a team to take those plants 20 critical, start them up and operate them? And do you O
. 21 have plan scenarios where you're going to take the 22 watch sections into their training facilities and run g
l 23 them through various casualty procedures and, if se, 24 what casualty procedures and what other unusual A
V POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
155 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS i (- ) MARCH 18, 1997 1 arrangements? And do you have some sort of program to 2 do that? And would it be possible, if you do, for the 3 NEAC to have a copy of it?
4 MR. LANNING: Okay. I've got a long-5 winded answer for you.
6 MR. SHEEHAN: Good.
7 MR. LANNING: In two parts. What we 8 normally do -- then what we will do based on these 9 recent operator license -- what we normally do for a 10 plant that's been shut down a long time is to assess
- g 11 operators' readiness to operate. And we do that in a r~T 12 number of ways. Observation of their performance in a V
13 simulator, for example. Command and control of 14 op'arating crews, for example, the kind of stuff that 15 they would probably do.
16 We'd also observe operators at the real 17 controls of the reactor during start-up. We would
! 18 normally have round-the-clock coverage for a certain 1
19 number of days, for example, through the evolutions to 20 listen, to watch, to see how efficient and safe that O
< 21 they operate this unit. That's what we normally do for l
g 22 a plant that's been shut down for a long period of l 23 time, to do a check on operators' readiness to operate.
24 Now, I want to go back. These recent POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
l 156 l HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS I
( MARCH 18, 1997 l 1 revelations concerning the training program I take very 2 seriously because one implication of that is what are 3 the qualifications of all the operators? Because 4 they've all been through this training program. I 5 don't know the answer to that yet because Northeast is 6 still evaluating not only this most recent plant's l l
7 failure but historically have operators met the 8 qualifications before they stood for a license. Okay?
9 Now, on the surface --
and this is 10 preliminary. They have not completed their root cause 11 analysis. But on the surface, it appears to me that 12 management once again has failed to provide adequate l 13 oversight of the training program at Millstone. And so l
14 if that, indeed, turns out to be the root cause and it 15 does -- it's pervasive among numerous operator classes, 16 we'll have to undergo some sort of training inspection, 17 training evaluation, individual assessments and
! 18 whatever. But it's too early yet for me to tell you
- 19 what that would encompass because we're not quite there 20 yet.
O
. 21 MR. SHEEHAN: Okay. Do you have plans I
g 22 then for setting up -- besides assessing the individual l 23 operator's competencies and qualifications, of looking 24 at how those individual operators interact with each !
A V POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 I
157 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O anaca 18 1997 -
1 other in a teamwork environment so where basically 2 you're preparing the crew as a team and assessing their 3 knowledge -- you can do it -- one of the ways you can 4 do it, obviously, is through a series of interviews or 5 simulator type things. Do you have a-regular scenario 6 program that you go through that NRC uses in assessing 7 start-up of plants or are you going to have to go blow 8 the cobwebs off one that's been used a few years ago 9 and update it or do you even bother to do this type of 10 thing normally when a plant goes critical? I know it's 11 been a long time since the initial plant has gone 12 initial critical.
13 MR. LANNING: Again, normally we would 14 be evaluating operating performance, what we call 15 operator evaluations, as part of the start-up, as part 16 of the readiness for operation. But in this case, 17 where we are today, it may require us or someone to do I 18 operator evaluations, job performance evaluations, if I-19 you will, which includes crew performance evaluations 20 as part of a separate evaluation. We used to call'it O
= 21 operator requalification exams. Okay? Where we looked I
} 22 at and assessed individual crew performance --
for l 23 example. Okay? But -- so we nny have to do something 24 like that, depending on the outcome of this ongoing O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
. ~. . .. . .
158
-s HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
(), MARCH 18, 1997 1 evaluation.
2 MR. SHEEHAN: I was just thinking that 3 it might be worthwhile if you had some sort of program 4 that took them through the casualties, God forbid, that 5 you ever see, the things like, you know, complete loss 6 of coolant, you know, complete loss of pressurizer 7 level, failure of the primary reliefs, all that sort of 8 thing in an operational simulator situation where you 9 can see -- where they can get used to seeing what the 10 meters are going to do, how the systems are going to g 11 operate, and you have a set scenario and you won't say, 12 "No. Wc re not going to let you go critical until you i}
13 have been able to pass these wickets."
14 MR. LANNING: Well, you know, the 15 seating of the training program that puts the operator 16 crew through that scenario, various scenarios l
37 periodically as part of their training and refresher I 18 training.
5 f 19 But I think what you're really talking 20 to is is the NRC going to require additional operator O
< 21 crew evaluations prior to start-up? And the answer to I
g 22 that is I don't know yet because we're still evaluating l 23 how broke the training program is. But that would be 24 in addition to what we would normally do for evaluating O
V POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
159 fs HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS i) MARCH 18, 1997 1 operators' readiness to operate during restart for a 2 plant that's been shut down for a long period of time.
3 MR. SHEEHAN: Okay. I just --
I i l
4 encourage you to do that because obviously, even if the l 5 design basis is perfect and all the material problems 6 have been fixed, if the operators can't smoothly 7 operate the plant, you've got a disaster in the making.
8 MR. LANNING: I agree with you.
9 MR. SHEEHAN: Thank you.
10 MR. LANNING: Any other questions?
g 11 Okay. I think we're finished. Thank
= ;
/' 12 you very much. Good night.
13 14 (Whereupon, the hearing was adjourned at 15 10:15 P.M.)
16 I
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l l
CERTIFICATE O
I, Paul Landman, a Notary Public in and for the State of Connecticut, and President of Post Reporting Service, Inc., do hereby certify that, to the best of my knowledge, the foregoing record is a correct and verbatim transcription of the audio recording made of the proceeding hereinbefore set forth.
I further certify that neither the audio operator nor I are attorney or counsel for, nor directly related to or employed by any of the parties to the action and/or proceeding in which this action is taken; and further, that neither g the audio operator nor I are a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties thereto, or financially interested in any way in the outcome of this action or proceeding.
In witness whereof I have hereunto set my hand and do so attest to the above, this 1 st day of April ,19 97.
e iM ,=;n Paul Landman, 3 President POST REPORTING SERVICE 1-800-262-4102
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