ML20133G279
| ML20133G279 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Millstone, Haddam Neck File:Connecticut Yankee Atomic Power Co icon.png |
| Issue date: | 08/29/1996 |
| From: | NRC |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20133G256 | List: |
| References | |
| NUDOCS 9701150280 | |
| Download: ML20133G279 (60) | |
Text
_ - - . - - . . - . - . - . - - . -- ... - - -
- Official Transcript cf Preccadings .
O NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION t 4
Title:
CONNECTICUT PUBLIC TELEVISION
, BROADCAST RE NUCLEAR SAFETY ;
ISSUES j i
Docket Number: (not applicable)_
l Location: TELEVISION BROADCAST O
Date: AUGUST 29,1996 Work Order No.: NRC-951 Pages 1-59 4
NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
/^ Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433 okI*$00!kos000b13 T PDR
l 1 1 1
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION t
,f 3 l, + + + + +
4 SAFETY ISSUES 5 + + + + +
6 CONNECTICUT PUBLIC TELEVISION BROADCAST 7 + ++ + +
8 AIR DATE: AUGUST 29, 1996 9 + + + + +
10 IN THE MATTER OF 11 EXHIBIT A TO 10 CFR 2.206 12 PETITION DATED 11/25/96 ON BEHALF OF 13 CITIZENS AWARENESS NETWORK (CAN)
[%,< 14 AND 15 NUCLEAR INFORMATION AND RESOURCE SERVICE (NIRS) 16 17 18 19 20 The interview was held at Connecticut Public 21 Television, Susan Perry Luxton, moderator, and Gary 22 Verdun, guest speaker.
23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W.
(202) 234 4 33 WASHINGTON, O C. 2000$-3701 (202) 234 4 33 I
i 2 '
1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 (Introductory music.)
( 3 MS. LUXTON: Hi, I'm Susan Perry Luxton, and 4
welcome to Nuclear Safety Issues brought to you by the i 5- Citizen's Regulatory Commission. This evening I have with 6
me a guest who was a former employee of Millstone, Gary 7 Verdun. Gary, glad to have you here.
8 MR. VERDUN: Pleased to.be here, Susan.
9 MS. LUXTON: Gary is a very powerful speaker-10 who we started to hear at the.last few meetings, and we 11 have never heard before that. And so, he has quite a .{
12 story to tell relating to his experience working at l
13 Millstone, and also the termination of January 11, 1996.
14 And so I thought it was something that you .l 15 should all hear because I was duly impressed'by -- not 16 impressed, upset's the word more, I think, by -- by what I 17 heard from Gary. 'So-Gary, let's talk a little bit about la your background first.
19- How long have you been at Millstone or were
-20 you at Millstone before you were terminated?
1-21 MR. VERDUN: Well, I started at Millstone in !
22 1980, and I worked there for 12 years as a Senior 23 Engineering Tech in a group called the Liability 24 Engineering. And after 12 -- 8 years -- 12 years with the i
L 25 company, I should say,.I was promoted to Site Maintenance
!O NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVE.. N W (202) 234 4 33 WASHINGTON. D C 20005-3701 (202) 234 4 33
1 3 l l
1 Supervisor.
2
,. And at the point in time, I took on a major
's_,/ 3 g responsibility of assuring that the site was in good i 1
4 N[ :':".dition with respect to material condition of the site, ;
5 N he cleanliness of the site, the --
6 MS. LUXTON: The " site," you mean all three 7 reactors?
l I
B MR. VERDUN: All of the support buildings, 9
grounds, the maintenance of all support buildings on the l 10 units and some support for the units themselves. !
11 MS. LUXTON: " Material condition," you mean i i
12 hardware and housekeeping?
13 MR. VERDUN: All -- all the housekeeping on ;
[\_/) 14 the site and all the maintenance of the support buildings
'5 --
16 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
17 MR. VERDUN: -- HVAC work, repair of all the 18 doors on the site, which there's a couple of thousand 19 doors, and all of the janitorial services --
20 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
21 MR. VERDUN: -- for the site, 22 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
23 MR. VERDUN: So, the job was a pretty big job.
24 MS. LUXTON: It sounds like a big job.
25 MR. VERDUN: And it -- it was different from
(~s\
\' ,/
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the previous job because the previous job was all 2
technically oriented, and it involved a lot of work on O ,i j
3y;solvingrotordynamicsproblems--
4 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
5 MR. VERDUN: -- problems with rotating 6
equipment, vibration problems on -- on large rotating 7 equipment. So --
9 MS. LUXTON: In nuclear -- in the nuclear 9 field?
10 MR. VERDUN: All in -- well, we did work on 11 the nuclear plants as well as fossils and hydro plants.
12 MS. LUXTON: And this was when you were with 13 Combustion Engineering --
IN 14 MR. VERDUN: No, this was --
V 15 MS. LUXTON: -- or when you went -- I 16 MR. VERDUN: -- this was with North --
17 Northeast Utilities --
13 MS. LUXTON: All right.
19 MR, VERDUN: -- from 1980 until about 1992, I 20 , did that kind of work. And then from '92 until 1996, I i
21 worked at the site as Site Maintenance Supervisor.
22 MS. LUXTON: Okay, so that's 19 -- so, 19 --
23 is that 16 years?
l 24 MR. VERDUN: Sixteen years, yes. l
,_s 25 MS. LUXTON: (Laughing) I NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE IStAND AVE., N W (202) 234 4433 WASHINGTON D C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
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1 MR. VERDUN: A lot of the years at Northeast 2 Utilities were wonderful years. If I was really -- since (x), 3 1997, when the plants really began to have problems and we 4 H,;saw -- began to see a degradation at the plant in terms of i
~ : ne acndition of the plant, in terms of procedural 6
violations, in terms of, you know, morale problems 7 beginning to surface at the plants, and this all kind of 8 coincided with cut-backs that were imposed on the staff as 9 a result of the company trying to position themselves in a 10 competitive situation --
11 MS. LUXTON: Yes, yes.
12 MR. VERDUN: -- for things that were coming 13 down the pike with retail wheeling --
['} 14 MS. LUXTON: Deregulation?
\s /
15 MR. VERDUN: -- and deregulation and -- and 16 that kind of thing.
1 17 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
18 MR. VERDUN: So, a lot of problems began to 19 emerge in 1987 as a result of cut-backs at the site:
20 money cut-backs, manpower cut-backs, and that sort of 21 thing. And by the time I became a supervisor in 1992, the 22 cut-backs were really becoming very severe.
23 And -- and then they were beginning to talk 24 about staff reductions to the Northeast Utilities' staff.
_ 25 And of course, that -- that heightened and increased the
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concern of the employees for their jobs and it had a
,,\
2 detrimental effect on morale --
k ,) MS. LUXTON: Yes.
4 MR. VERDUN: -- along with severe budget cuts 5 from 1992 until 1996. That bunch of cuts were so severe 6 that the degradation at the plant began to increase at a 7 faster rate.
3 MS. LUXTON: And you were involved with --
9 talking about degradation of the plant -- of identifying 10 those kinds of problems --
11 MR. VERDUN: Yes.
12 MS. LUXTON: -- by -- by your MCP --
13 MR. VERDUN: Material Conditions Program.
(}
kJ 14 MS. LUXTON: -- program? Right. That was --
15 so, let's talk a little bit -- but first, I think, talk 16 about the Material Condition Program, because that was a ;
17 big part of what -- what you -- you did at Millstone in 18 those last final years.
19 MR. VERDUN: Yes, it was.
}
i 20 ; MS. LUXTON: But was -- that had to do with 21 the housekeeping, right? And -- and when you talk about 1
l l
22 " housekeeping," we were talking about that earlier today, ,
i 23 and that was an interesting thing to learn: how important 24 that is in a nuclear power plant. i 25 MR. VERDUN: Housekeeping --
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7 1 MS, LUXTON: I mean, it's not just like 2 sweeping the floor.
3 MR. VERDUN: No, there's a lot more to it than 4 :nat. Housekeeping is a very important issue --
5 MS. LUXTON: Why?
6 MR. VERDUN: -- at nuclear power plants 7
because it involves aspects of fire safety. And fire 8
safety at nuclear power plants is a very important issue.
9 So, it's very important to keep the plants very clean and 10 in a condition that looks good to everybody, and not only 11 looks good, but is safe from the standpoint of 12 combustionable materials and --
13 MS. LUXTON: Right.
14 MR. VERDUN: -- and that sort of thing.
15 MS. LUXTON: They re not tripping over things.
16 There's not rags --
17 MR. VERDUN: Right.
18 MS. LUXTON: -- and uhatever --
19 MR. VERDUN: Right.
20 MS. LUXTON: -- hanging out.
21 MR. VERDUN: Right. Part of it is keeping 22 things tied down, keeping everything in order, and 23 everything has a place and everything should be in its 24 place.
25 MS, LUXTON: And that's the fire safety part, NEAL R. GROSS l
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.- - . _ ~ _ _ _ _ _ _ . . _ _ . . - . _ _ .- , ____m__.._____._...__._
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- j. 8 1 but there's also the radiation part --
2 MR. VERDUN:
i Yes, that --
f 3 MS. LUXTON:
i i, -- for instance, in rad waste.
4 i MR. VERDUN: Yes, that -- that -- those kinds i
} 5_ of issues are normally taken care of by a whole crew of
! ),
i 6 people that are assigned to rad waste, '
1
- 7 MS. LUXTON
- Yes. t a i
, 8 MR. VERDUN:
I But the - .one of the jobs that I _
- 9 got -- I I 1 i
- 10- MS. LUXTON:
i Then what were the people doing )
- 11 if -- if they weren't -- if they had a whole crew'of i
12 2
people in charge of rad' waste, Gary, what were they doing 1 1 i
- 13 all these years that they let rad waste go like that?
i O o 14 MR. VERDUN: You're talking about1 Unit I rad
- 15 waste?
f 16 MS. LUXTON: Right, Unit I rad waste, when 17 they --
i a
j 18 MR. VERDUN: Basically, I think they became i
, -19 complacent with a very bad situation, an antiquated 1 4
- 20 facility --
r 21 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
N 22 MR. VERDUN: -- that certain piping systems a
j 23 that process radioactive waste were antiquated. They'd j 24 been cut out of the piping loop. Some pumps had been shut s
25 down, were no longer used.
t -
i !
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A lot of the systems in there were still 2 radioactive pipes.
/
They hadn't disposed of those pipes or C)\ 3 cut them out of the system because it was going to be just 4
too expensive, the Utility thought, to dispose of those l 5 systems at that time --
6 MS. LUXTON: Right.
7 MR. VERDUN: -- because of the radiation 8 aspects of it.
9 MS. LUXTON: So, they allowed it to just kind 10 of deteriorate and deteriorate and they didn't get the 11 money --
12 MR. VERDUN: So --
13 MS. LUXTON: -- the funding --
(9 14 MR. VERDUN: Yes.
k_)
15 MS. LUXTON: -- the department people didn't 16 get the funding to clean it up, so they just kind of lived 17 with it?
18 MR. VERDUN: The -- the technicians and the 13 people that had to work in those areas lived with that 20 situation. They kind of became used to it. And it really 21 wasn't until I was assigned a major project by Don Miller 22 about a year and a half ago.
23 It was near Thanksgiving in 1994, that I -- I 24 was asked to do a special assignment where I reported
/
7 25 directly to him and -- and created a program called the s
(
'~' /
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Material Condition Program for the site, which was 2
basically a comprehensive inspection program, a visual '
l n) i, 3( inspection program, of the site to identify any kinds of l 1
4 n
- _;1encies that we could see, hear or sense by sensory l El perception. And at that time, 6 MS. LUXTON: What do you mean by " sensory i 7 perception?"
8 MR. VERDUN: Well --
9 MS. LUXTON: I know there's something wrong --
10 MR. VERDUN: (Laughing).
11 MS. LUXTON: -- (Laughing).
12 MR. VERDUN: No, no. We -- we didn't have any 13 --
1
(N '4 MS. LUXTON: No fortune tellers there, right?
O 15 MR. VERDUN: -- ESP kind of stuff going on 16 there, or at least I don't think we did. (Laughing).
17 MS. LUXTON: So, who was in charge, you?
18 MR. VERDUN: I was in charge of the program, 19 and the program basically -- I was -- I was told what the 20 company wanted for a program and some of the fundamental l
21 ' aspects of the program. And then I was turned loose to 22 design the program and come up with something that would 23 work for the site for a comprehensive inspection program.
- 24 So, what I came up with after a fashlon was --
i 25 and -- and working with Don Miller on this also was we i
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would have 28 managers from the site, the Millstone site, 2 perform inspections once a month.
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k ,s) 3 It would take about four to six hours of their 4 t;me per month. Each of the managers would be assigned a 5
zone to inspect, which was a -- like a small geographical 6 area of the site.
7 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
8 MR. VERDUN: Their job would be to go into 9 that area, or those areas, that they were assigned to, and 10 they would look for deficiencies --
11 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
12 MR. VERDUN: -- any kind of deficiencies:
13 housekeeping deficiencies, leaks in pipes, noisy
(i
\ m ,/
14 machinery, machinery that was vibrating excessively that 15 might be developing a problem.
16 MS. LUXTON: Okay, why?
17 MR. VERDUN: To -- to basically put the plant 18 in a better material condition. We were trying to 19 identify problems that we could later, you know, get them 20 identified in a database, and then organize an effort to 21 get these things repaired.
22 MS. LUXTON: So you could become an exemplary 23 nuclear power plant?
24 MR. VERDUN: That's right, because the 25 condition of the site was beginning to look very haggard.
/~',s i !
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12 1 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
l 2 MR. VERDUN: And Don was, and many other A
Is,) 3 hpecp'e were, very concerned about that.
t i 4 ,, MS. LUXTON: Yes.
l l 5!l MR. VERDUN: And it slipped, like I said, 6 since 1987. So, this assignment came along in November of 7 1994. It had slipped into a pretty seriously -- a pretty 8 bad state of affairs --
9 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
10 MR. VERDUN: -- from appearance and also from 11 the condition of the machinery and the performance of the 12 machinery. So --
13 MS. LUXTON: So, this was a good thing?
[~')
\J 14 MR. VERDUN: Oh, it was an excellent program.
15 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
16 MR. VERDUN: I spent a lot of time designing 17 the program, setting up tracking systems for the program.
18 MS. LUXTON: Did --
19 MR. VERDUN: Eventually, we created a huge 20 database.
21 MS. LUXTON: Yes. How many -- how many things 22 did you find wrong that needed to be fixed?
23 MR. VERDUN: In a year and a half, we 24 identified 2,613 items th t were entered into the database 25 that needed to be addressed. Like I said before, a lot of N
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'l them were minor things: housekeeping issues, appearance
?
[ things.
~
~ 3i MS. LUXTON: Yes.
! )
i 4 !
1 MR. VERDUN: But there were some things in the '
i 5
database that had'far-reaching implications in terms of
- 6 effort, money, engineering, time, and, you know, really 7 seriously impacted the --
j 8 MS. LUXTON: Performance of the plant?
9 MR. VERDUN: Yeah, and not only that, but the-i 10 -- you know, the radiation exposure of personnel and the
- j l
i.
11 safety of people working around that kind of material. i 1
j 12 MS. LUXTON:
Yes, okay. So, what happened?
13 MR. VERDUN:
i Well, probably the best example 14 really was the, like you mentioned earlier,.the Unit I. rad 15 waste facility. When I went into that facility for the i 16 first time in my life, I was -- I was approached by people J
- 17 that were. work'ing in those areas, i
18 And basically, they were concerned about 5
4 19 conditions that they were asked to work under --
J I
20 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
4
- 21 MR. VERDUN
- -- because the area was so -- it 1-22 was strewn with temporary pipes, temporary hoses,
, 23 temporary processing equipment. There were lots of pipes
- i j 24 in there that were still radioactive pipes that were not ;
3 4
25 being used to process fluid, but hadn't been removed that, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE. N W. j (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D C. 20005 3701 (202) 234 4 33 j i
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you know, people had to work around these things and walk 2 by them all the time.
7m
)
(_/ 3 So, the people felt that, you know, they were 4 Lgett;ng exposure, that -- radiation exposure that they I
3 hd;dn't have the --
3 MS. LUXTON: That was not necessary.
7 MR. VERDUN: -- necessary, and there was a lot 8 of contamination, of course, in that area because of the i
9 fact that they're processing these fluids. l 10 What was particularly bad about it is that all 11 of these hoses and tubes running all over the floors and 12 everything were not plumbed into the system as hard piping 13 systems in a permanent manner.
l f~'j 14 Everything was kind of temporarily set up.
l v
15 You know, it looked to me like it --
16 MS, LUXTON: And it had been temporarily set 17 up for years you mean?
18 MR. \ERDUN: For years and years. And -- and 19 -- and everything -- every time they did something down 20 ! there, it was always done temporary, you know, temporary.
I 11 So, they'd take out one temporary thing, and put in 22 another temporary thing. As technology changed and better 23 things came along, they'd take out one temporary thing and 24 put in another, I guess.
7_s 25 So, but they never got to a point where they i)
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1 ever plumbed anything back in hard, you know --
2 MS. LUXTON: Oh, I see.
3 MR.~VERDUN: --
with piping systems. So, it 4 lwas a mess.
5 MS. LUXTON: So, what finally happened, Gary?
6 Did they fix it? I mean --
7 MR. VERDUN: Well, they didn't --
8 MS. LUXTON: -- they didn't fix it then.
9 MR. VERDUN: After -- after a lot of i l
10 discussion about it and after working with one of the 11- managers that was responsible for inspections in that 12 'a re a , we got an engineerino effort mounted to correct 13 those problems.
14 One of '.he major things though'that -- two 15 things -- two major things in that area that concerned me 16' a great deal: one.of them was a tank that had a -- that 17 had rotted out. And apparently, there was radioactive 18 sludge that was leaking out of the base of the tank.
i 19 The technicians in that area referred to this 20 -- this condition that had developed there as the ant 21 hill. So, the sludge would leak out slowly and a mound of 22 radioactive sludge had built up underneath the tank that i
j 23 was extremely hot stuff.
i t
24 So, somebody somewheres along the line decided I
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take it out or put a new tank in because of the high !
2 radioactive levels. So, they essentially put up a l p
( ,) 3 concrete wall around the whole thing and kind of roped it 4
off and, you know, put a lead shield in and stuff like 5 that, and left it there.
6 So that, I thought, was, you know, an extreme 7 situation that absolutely should have been corrected. It 8 shouldn't have been a question of economics. It just 9 should have been fixed.
l 10 MS. LUXTON: Yes, yes.
l 11 MR. VERDUN: So, I made an issue out of that.
12 And I tried to get the films that people had taken on an 13 inspection a year or two before. I never could get the ;
()
LJ 14 films. I kind of was jerked around, so I never saw the 15 actual films.
16 I understand that they were taken during an 17 NRC inspection -- inspection. So, NRC people --
18 MS. LUXTON: Was aware of it?
19 MR. VERDUN: -- knew about it. They had seen 20 it, and they had not --
l 21 MS. LUXTON: Years before?
22 MR. VERDUN: Years before, and they had not 23 imposed a situation on those plants -- on that -- on the 24 plant to correct that situation.
25 There's a pipe chase down there also that I
(
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17 1 understand is an extremely bad situation that is corroded 2 out, a rotted out system, that's an extremely hot area
(.I 3 !. :st people have been into, and is another area that 4 < e = ians are very, very concerned about down there.
5 And I began to raise, you know, issues about 6 getting that area corrected also.
7 MS. LUXTON: Okay.
8 MR. VERDUN: So, there were -- there were big 9 things that came out of this program. It was not all 10 just, you know, painting --
11 MS. LUXTON: Right, right.
12 MR. VERDUN: -- floors and machinery and --
13 MS. LUXTON: And fixing valves and whatever?
'T 14 MR. VERDUN:
-- and fixing the valves. There c) 15 were other things that were involved that were big, big 16 items.
17 MS. LUXTON: Yes, like how about the thing 18 with the chips, the paint chips in Reactor Building II?
19 MR. VERDUN: Oh, where the containment --
20 MS. LUXTON: I love that story, in the 21 containment.
22 MR. VERDUN: Well --
23 MS. LUXTON: Was that part of your deficiency?
24 MR. VERDUN: Well, there -- there was a 7- 25 condition in contain -- that you're talking about --
f ;
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I 18 1 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
2 MR. VERDUN: -- that's in Unit II --
t (s.
i () 3i MS. LUXTON: Yes.
- i \
4" MR. VERDUN: -- containment where the --
l 5
there's a steel liner that circles containment --
6 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
7 MR. VERDUN: -- that is basically bolted to 8 the --
9 MS. LUXTON: Cement?
10 MR. VERDUN: -- the concrete --
11 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
12 MR. VERDUN: -- the cement --
13 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
[ '
14 MR. VERDUN: -- which is eight or ten feet u
15 thick.
16 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
17 MR. VERDUN: This liner is a quarter of an 18 inch or a half an inch thick, something like that. And it 19 -- it's a painted -- the liner is painted.
20 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
21 MR. VERDUN: And my understanding of what 22 occurs in that area is that during thermal temperature 23 change that's inside a container, that the -- this shell 24 grows faster than the concrete does because it heats up at
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19 l 1 the ambient temperature inside the containment.
2 So that what's created there is a differential l
f' (j)l 3l4 thermal expansion --
4 u MS. LUXTON: Yes.
l-
=
MR. VERDUN: -- between the liner and the 6 concrete. And as that -- as that liner tries to grow --
7 tried to grow out against the concrete, which is not 8
growing at the same rate, so it -- since it tries to grow 9 out, it can't go anywhere outwardly. So, it ends up 10 buckling.
11 So, that liner is buckled in several areas 12 inside containment because of the differential thermal 13 expansion problem. But what comes into play here is that f']
v 14 it put such tremendous stresses on the liner, that the
_~ 5 paint that'c applied to the liner peels off. And it peels 16 off in chunks that are about the size of giant potato 17 chips, probably so big. They just curl right off the 18 liner.
19 The -- the problem with the situation there is 20 that there are so many of these paint chips that have i
21 peeled off the liner that when -- and this occurs on --
22 usually on start up --
23 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
l 24 MR. VERDUN: -- or during the process of 25 running -- you know, while they're running the reactors, f ;
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that a lot of these paint chips begin to appear. And what 2 has concerned the plant, and they've known about this for rw .'
l l 0, l
(_,/ 3 ' fears, is that if there's ever an accident inside of Unit 1 4 R:: and they have to spray down inside the containment, 5
there's a good possibility that all that water rushing out 6 of the sparges and all the piping systems that are used to 7 quench the steam inside the containment, all that water 8 hitting those potato chips, or paint chips, could bust the 9 paint chips off, break them free.
10 They would fall to the floor --
11 MS. LUXTON: And clog up the drain. l l
12 MR. VERDUN: -- where there would be a torrent l 1
13 of water running across the floors. They would go into
(; 14 the drain, clog the drains. And in those sumps where the
\_)
15 drains are, those -- that's the suction for the pumps that ;
16 }
then recirculate the water, bring it back up to the j l
17 spraying headers and then re-spray it to continue l 18 quenching steam and keeping, you know, whatever situation 13 has developed under control.
20 ; MS. LUXTON: Right. So, if it was -- so !
!, i 1
21 ! technically then, theoretically, if that was clogged, then l
1 22 they wouldn't be able to quench the steam. ;
23 MR. VERDUN: Right.
I 24 MS. LUXTON: And the steam would build up and 25 that would be a pressure --
/3
( )
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1 l
21 i 1 MR. VERDUN: That would create --
2 MS. LUXTON: -- problem.
\
3 MR. VERDUN: -- some major problems --
4 MS. LUXTON: Right.
l MR. VERDUN: -- inside there because they 6 would not -- no longer have a source -- well, it would 7
eliminate one major source of water that they would need a
to control a situation inside containment.
l 9 MS. LUXTON: Okay, now --
10 MR. VERDUN: So, that's a scary situation.
11 MS. LUXTON: It's a scary situation.
12 MR. VERDUN: And it's something that --
13 MS. LUXTON: And you identified several --
(~'i 14 MR. VERDUN: -- needs to be acdressed.
V 15 MS. LUXTON: -- of these.
16 MR. VERDUN: So, that --
17 MS. LUXTON: Similar.
18 MR. VERDUN: -- the painting problems inside 13 the containment were identified by --
2C MS. LUXTON: By this program?
21 1 MR. VERDUN: -- this program, yes.
22 MS. LUXTON: Right. Okay now, the bottom line 23 is what happened to the program? Did they do the 24 inspections month -- every three months? And did -- did -
~
25 - and -- and so where's the program now?
\
(U NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRISERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE , N W (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
22 1 You are no longer there. Where's the program?
2 That's the question?
i rx )
\_) 3H MR. VERDUN: Well to my knowledge, when --
4 :wner I was terminated or laid-off, whatever you'd like to 5 call it, they -- they use the euphanism, you know, " laid-6 off." But really, essentially what it was was an illegal 7 termination.
8 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
9 MR. VERDUN: Nobody wanted to go and it was 10 not necessary for anybody to leave. At that point in 11 time, this Material Condition Program essentially was 12 abandoned to the best of my knowledge.
13 I know of nobody that picked up on the program 14 to administer the program, to --
[%-)J i 15 MS. LUXTON: What about Mr. Miller? It was !
16 his program. I 17 MR. VERDUN: I don't know. Basically, I tried 18 to contac Mr. Miller after the termination to see if they 19 would want to bring me back in through some, you know, job 20 shop --
21 MS. LUXTON: Contract, oh, yes.
22 MR. VERDUN: -- to work for Millstone to 23 continue to administer the program. But, I was referred l 24 to -- to the new senior person on the site, and basically l
l 7- 25 didn't get a call back from him. Later called again to l NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISMND AW., N W (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON. D C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 1
i
i 23 1
another vice president who had been involved in this, and in 2
-- and he referred it to a director, who was the director klm 3 I worked for prior to being terminated.
4 He did call and he told me in a phone 5 conversation that they -- they would decline the offer at l 1
l 6 that time. They weren't interested in identifying any new l 7 problems at the site. They were focusing all their 8 attention on problems that they already knew about, which 9 __
1 10 MS. LUXTON: Well, these aren't new problems - I 11 -
12 MR. VERDUN: -- pretty much astounded me l l
13 because, you know, they should continue to look for
,.\
14 problems all the time at those sites. It's an ongoing, l%s) 15 living process.
16 MS. LUXTON: Right, right.
17 MR. VERDUN: It's not something that you just, is you know, abandon at some point in time. But the bad part 19 --
20 l MS. LUXTON: Well, but --
l 21 ) MR. VERDUN: -- about it --
22 MS. LUXTON: -- they don't really want to know 23 though, Gary, I don't think.
24 MR. VERDUN: I doubt it because --
25 MS. LUXTON: Because --
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21 1 MR. VERDUN: -- this program was essentially 2
abandoned as far as I can see, and the database has not ln
(,/
\
3
-.anned from the time that I, you know -- I was -- I was 4 1 terminated at the site.
l i
5 MS. LUXTON: Seven months ago or whatever.
6 Now, do you think that this program that you did was just j
7 getting a little bit too close for comfort for them, and a that's part of the reason why you got terminated?
9 MR. VERDUN: Well after a lot of thought on 10 the issue, you know, I could think of no sensible reason j 11 why I was terminated. Essentially, I was doing two jobs 12 for the company. I was performing the duties of a site 13 Maintenance Supervisor. I was doing everything I could to p
14 do as much as possible in that area.
(v) i 15 And I was performing the duties of this 16 Material Condition Program. It's a very large job. It 17 involved a lot of effort to maintain the databases and 18 organize the --
19 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
20 MR. VERDUN: -- the effort.
21 MS. LUXTON: And to take it home work, you did 22 at home.
23 MR. VERDUN: Oh yes, a lot of -- a lot of 24 times I took stuff home, and then get reports out to all
, 25 the senior level management. You knew, reports went out
\
'~
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25 1 to about 50 people that were tailored to their level --
2 MS. LUXTON: Level.
m I i
(_ ,) 3 MR. VERDUN: -- in the company, so that 4 everybody knew exactly what all the problems were at the 5 site, so that the appropriate people could put pressure on 6
the right people to get all these deficiencies cleaned up.
7 MS. LUXTON: But see, this is what I see, 8 Gary. This is exactly what they were talking about at the 9 NU meetings with the NRC. They had all-these studies.
10 They put all this money into this enormous program to get 11 the place in better shape, and then they just let it go.
12 MR. VERDUN: And then they abandoned it, 13 right.
(~~'j 14 MS. LUXTON: And they abandoned it. And even C,e' 15 before they terminated you and it was abandoned, people 16 weren't even doing it.
17 MR. VERDUN: Well, we had problems -- Miller 18 had problems right along with getting some of the managers 19 to do their inspections. And he was frustrated with thr.t.
20 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
21 MR. VERDUN: And he tried 00 a number of times 22 I was at meetings where he actually raised some hell about 23 it with the managers. But, it didn't seem to make any i
24 difference.
l t
l 25 At first, it seemed to be a very effective f3
\ l
' V NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W (202) 234 4433 WASHINGTON. D C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
1 26 ~
1 program and the managers were -- managers were 2 participating.
But as time went by, the effort tapered qj 3 Tff until we got down to, you know, I think it was around
- r 60 percent participation --
l!
5 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
6 MR. VERDUN: -- per month by manager. And you 7
know, by then, you know, things were beginning to fall off l a rapidly. It felt that upper level management was not 9 supporting this program.
l 10 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
11 MR. VERDUN: And I was beginning to get some 12 negative reactions from my director and my supervisor.
13 Some things happened in the office area that could i
/"} 14 certainly be considered harassment by both my supervisor x_/ 1 15 and my director. I 16 MS. LUXTON: Towards you?
17 MR. VERDUN: Towards me.
19 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
19 MR. VERDUN: And I began to feel that this l
20 l Material Condition Program was getting too hot for the 1
21 company to handle.
22 MS. LUXTON: Yes, yes.
23 MR. VERDUN: So, I went to Nuclear Safety 24 Concerns, who was supposed to be a safe island for people t
l 25 to go eo --
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27 i MS. LUXTCN: Right, right.
2 ex !
MR. VERDUN: -- when they think they're having
( \ \
\_ ,/
3 j';::ciems that involve nuclear safety concerns issues.
4 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
5 MR. VERDUN: I talked to them about it, and 6 basically I was told that, you know, they would discuss 7 the situation with my supervision: my director and my 8 immediate supervisor and with Don Miller and, you know, 9 they would try to resolve the problem.
10 So after several weeks or so, there were --
11 there were meetings about it. And we -- I thought that we 12 ,
pretty much had resolved the issues, and that, you know, 13 this harassment would stop and -- ,
(m)
'n /
14 MS. LUXTON: Yes. ,
l 15 MR. VERDUN: -- and that things would work out 16 --
l 17 MS. LUXTON: And what happened?
18 MR. VERDUN: -- okay. And about two weeks, 19 two or three weeks after the meeting, I was told that I 20 was terminated. So, you know, I basically -- I went -- I 21 followed the company procedures. I worked within the 22 guidelines and framework of the company.
23 I believed in what they told me about working 24 within the system --
,s 25 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
( )
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23 1 MR. VERDUN: -- that the company set up --
2 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
gw, s
\_,/ 3 MR. VERDUN: -- for a nuclear safety concerns 4 .ssue. I gave them due respect to work within that 5 system.
6 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
7 MR. VERDUN: And it -- they did not protect 8 me.
They -- they -- they betrayed my trust, and basically 9 I was set up for the situation that --
10 MS. LUXTON: That you're in now?
11 MR. VERDUN: -- finally transpired.
12 MS. LUXTON: I'm sorry, Gary. I hate to say 13 it, but you're one in a long list, an ever-growing list.
[G) 14 And hopefully, it won't be growing any longer now.
15 I mean, they keep saying that -- that they've 16 changed and that they're so much better, the Nuclear 17 Concerns Program, but I don't believe it. Let's talk 18 about this matrix business, about the -- about the 19 termination.
23 MR. VERDUN: This is going to be the joke of 21 all jokes.
22 MS. LUXTON: We've heard this before from --
23 MR. VERDUN: Yes.
24 MS. LUXTON: -- Jim Plum, from Harry Scully.
i 25 I mean, this is the joke of all jokes.
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\
29 I 1
1 MR. VERDUN: Yes. -
l 1
2 MS. LUXTON: How many years did you have (3 .
(_/ 3 .U+xperience, 16 years experience? Guess what? In the
- l 4 rating folks, the rating -- they had -- they were rated in I i 5 different weights. In experience, the weight of l 6 experience was two.
7 MR. VERDUN: Yes.
8 MS. LUXTON: I can't believe that experience 9 is only rated two.
10 MR. VERDUN: Well -- j 11 MS. LUXTON: Education was rated the next 12 lowest, five.
13 MR. VERDUN: There -- there's nothing sensible
["} 14 about this process at all. I mean, it's -- it's a very I
\,_)
15 subjective process.
16 MS. LUXTON: One man did this?
17 MR. VERDUN: One man basically did this to me, 18 that's right. One man, who took probably ten minutes to 19 fill this matrix out, changed the course of my life 20 forever.
21 And nothing that was on this matrix was based 22 on past performance review; nothing was based on the 23 effort that I put forth for the company; nothing was based 24 on, you know, the fact that essentially I was working two 25 jobs for the company.
p.
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l 30 1 MS. LUXTON: Yes, yes.
2 MR. VERDUN: It wasn't involved with -- it i
V 3 ndn't have any bearing on -- with me or with anybody j s
4 e_se, by the way, that was involved with this matrix --
5 MS. LUXTON: So, you feel that --
6 MR. VERDUN: -- nobody was treated fairly.
7 MS. LUXTON: Right. So, you feel you were 3 wrongly terminated.
9 MR. VERDUN: Oh, absolutely.
10 MS. LUXTON: So, what -- so, this is a part of .
1 1
11 the show that we want to talk about too. I would like, if l l
12 'there's anyone watching who also was on that January :
1 13 termination and would like to -- to call in and maybe
('N 14 share what happened with them and how they felt about
()
15 . heir termination -- maybe you felt it was fine.
16 And I don't know if anybody feels that their 17 termination is fine. But you're actually saying you think 18 it was illegal.
19 MR. VERDUN: Well, I think it was illegal 22 ,
,1 because what -- what first alerted me to the fact that 21 this might be illegal is I went to an NRC meeting --
22 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
23 MR. VERDUN: -- in a simulator building at --
! 24 at Millstone.
25 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
' '\ '
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. _ . . _ _ _ . _ _ _ . - - _ . . . _ _ - . . _ . _ _ . . _ . _ . . . . _ . . _ _ . _ . . . _ . _ _ . . _ _ _ . ~ _._. ..
3
< 31 1 .
1 MR. VERDUN:
4
?
And I think it was two or three i 2- weeks ago. And during that meeting, I was surprised to i
- 3 i
find out that the NRC made a statement that -- when they
$. 4 i- were asked about these terminations and whether -- how the 1
l 5 investigation was going --
i
) 6 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
1 4 7 MR. VERDUN: -- from the standpoint of the NRC 1- e 1
j.
8 looking into this stuff, that basically the investigation
(
j 9 of the firing of 104 people had not been completed, that
- 10 it had kind of been bounced around within NRC structure, I
3 11 Office of Investigation, that they had pretty much come to i
4 12 the conclusion that-they might refer the whole matter to j 13 the Justice Department.
4 4
l 14 ~MS. LUXTON: Yes.
{ 15 MR. VERDUN: And if it went to the Justice j 16 Department, that there could be criminal prosecution --
i 17 MS. LUXTON: Yes, yes.
.i
- j. 18 MR. VERDUN: -- as a result of the whole 19 affair. Because a lot of these people that were i
20 terminated by use of this crazy thing that Northeast l 21 Utilities developed to target people that they wanted to -
22 - to terminate, for whatever paranoid reasons that were i
l l 23 going through their mind, they -- a lot of them were 1
', 24 i
involved in nuclear safety issues.
f 25 MS. LUXTON: Yes, yes.
4 i
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i i 32
]
1 MR. VERDUN: So if that can be linked to --
2 you know, these terminations can be linked to illegal --
^'N
['d s 3i MS. LUXTON: Then criminal prosecution can be 4 --
5 MR. VERDUN: Yes.
6 MS. LUXTON: -- can be on the horizon. Now 7 listen --
8 MR. VERDUN: That's right.
1 9 MS. LUXTON: -- the key word here is " criminal i
1 10 prosecution.
11 MR. VERDUN: That's right.
12 MS. LUXTON: Now, we were going to show the 13 folks at home the Code of Federal Regulations, remember?
( 14 MR. VERDUN: That's true, yes.
15 MS. LUXTON: Now, Gary brought in the C.F.R, 16 the Code of Federal Regulations. Now, you've heard many 17 times on our show, and also in the newspaper -- I mean, 18 you can't have followed this issue without seeing these 19 letters, "C.F.R. 20,20" or "C.F.R. 50.54."
20 So, this is what C.F.R. is, the Code of 21 Federal Regulations. These are the laws that guide the 22 nuclear power plant in its operations, right?
23 MR. VERDUN: That's right.
24 MS. LUXTON: Okay. So in this C.F.R. 50 -- 50 25 section, we looked up the employee protections part of it,
(,-3)
- s. '-
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- ..- ~ . - - . - . - . . . - - . . - . - . . . - . - . . - . . . . . - . . . - . . . . . . - . . .-... - .-. - .-
l' i
33
" i 1 C.F.R. 50.7.
! And here it says, " Discrimination by a l l
2 licensed -- commissioned licensee against an employee for i
$ 3 engaging in certain protected activitie's is prohibited. l t
4 Discrimination includes dischargs and other actions that i
5 relate to compensation, terms, conditions or privileges of l t
j
- t 6 employment."
.j 7 And then it goes on. And then it says, "Any 8 employee who believes that he or she.has been discharged 2.
i 9 or otherwise discriminated against by any person for
-10 engaging in protected activities specified in Paragraph 11 (a) -- (a) (1) of this section, may seek a remedy for the 12 discharge or discrimination through an administrative i i i
13 proceeding in the Department of Labor," which you've done, 14 Okay, and then it says, " Violation of 15 Paragraphs (a), (e) or (f) of this section by a d
, 16 commissioned licensee," that would be like NU, "an 17 applicant for a commissioned licensee, or a contractor or-18 a subcontractor of a commissioned licensee or applicant
'19 may be grounds for (1) denial, revocation, or suspension 20 of a license; (2) imposition of civil penalty on the 21 license or applicant; and (3) other enforcement action."
22 Now, this is a big point because " harassment 23 and intimidation of employee," not -- whether you're 24 wrongfully terminated or not. Whether you were wrongfully 25 terminated or not is one issue.
1 n NEAL R.- GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE. N W.
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1 34 j 1 But the harassment and intimidation, we know !
2 that has gone on more than once, right?
3 MR -VERDUN: Absolutely.
4' MS. LUXTON: More than twice. I mean --
5 MR. VERDUN: Absolutely.
i 6 MS. LUXTON: -- the people we've had on this 7 show: Blanche, Delcort --
8 MR. VERDUN: Plum. J 9 MS. LUXTON: -- Plum, Tim O'Sullivan, Gladys, 10 and Benttencourt, all those people, you -- I mean, we're 11 talking up to six, seven, eight, nine -- and Pete 12 Reynolds. I mean, if this -- with the (a) violation, i 13 we've got five or six. Why isn't the NRC --
14 MR. VERDUN: Wait, wo have nine.
! 15 MS. LUXTON: What --
nin'e.
- 16' MR. VERDUN
- Nine up to this point Now --
c l 17 MS. LUXTON: That's with the --- i 18 MR. VERDUN: I believe that, you know, that I 19 -- that I am the tenth person who's come forward to say 20 that they think that they were treated wrongfully by they l- 21 company with respect to the protected activities.
l 22 MS. LUXTON: Okay, so it says right there --
23 MR. VERDUN: So I mean, this -- this is a i
24 repeating occurrence at this utility. It's something that
]
25 needs to be corrected.
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l l~ l
l 1 MS. LUXTON: By the NRC.
2 MR. VERDUN: Juud the NRC needs to take some 3- real tough action, and they need to take action against 4 the people that are doing this things, not against the 5 corporation.
6 There are people involved in this stuff that l
7 need to be -- need civil penalties --
l 8 MS. LUXTON: Right, so -- so the civil --
9 MR. VERDUN: -- because they're violating i
10 federal rules when they do these things.
l 11 MS. LUXTON: Right, or "the denial or l
12 revocation or sucpension of a license or other enforcement
! - 13 action." Well what they've been doing is the "other.
1 I
14 enforcement action."
15- MR. VERDUN: Right, but they have never --
l 16 they have never taken --
l l 17 MS. LUXTON: Complied.
l 18 MR. VERDUN: -- their licenses away from them.
19 They've never revoked their license. They've never really 20 played hard-ball with this utility. They give them a 21' $100,000 fine or something. A'S100,000 fine to this 1 22 utility is a joke.
I 23 MS. LUXTON: Right.
i
'4 i MR. VERDUN: I mean, they laugh about it.
25 It's like you and I going out and getting a speeding l
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIB5RS l 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE N W l (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON D C 20005-3701 (202) 234 4 33 t
36' 1 ticket --
2 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
i I 3g MR. VERDUN: -- and then they got -- the 4 ;ff;;er writes it out and says that this is a four cent 5 fine.
6 MS. LUXTON: (Laughing).
7 MR. VERDUN: You know?
8 MS. LUXTON: That's a real deterrent, right?
9 MR. VERDUN: Yes, so, you know, it's that kind 10 of thing.
11 MS. LUXTON: Well, we've got a call. ;
12 MR. VERDUN: The penalties are not severe 13 enough.
/"h) 14 MS. LUXTON: Let's see who it is. Hi, you're
%J l
15 on Nuclear Safety Issues.
16 MALE PHONE CALLER: Yes, hi, Susan. How are 17 you? I 18 MS. LUXTON: Good.
19 MALE PHONE CALLER: Great. And your guest, 20 good to see him, but not in these conditions that, you 21 know -- 1 22 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
23 MALE PHONE CALLER: -- that are prevailing.
24 But you know, he was talking, and you also were talking of m 25 rad waste, et cetera. And at one time, I did work for rad
/ \
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l 37 1 waste.
I 2 MS. LUXTON: Oh, did you?
im i ) 3j MALE PHONE CALLER: Yes. And I'm going to 1
4 _e.. you what -- just exactly what transpires out there, 5 and it's one of these things to hell with it -- to hell 6 with it. That's the big word, and the gentleman is 7 agreeing with me, shaking his head yes.
8 MS. LUXTON: What do you mean --
9 MALE PHONE CALLER: But it --
10 MS. LUXTON: -- "to hell with iti" 11 MALE PHONE CALLER: I'11 tell you exactly 12 what's happened. We've had episodes out there where I 13 have actually been in Unit II. I've done work in there:
'\ 14 piping, et cetera. I've seen puddles on the floor.
[O 15 And I've been told, " Clean that up." I've 16 said, "Let's get PHP in here and let's get a test going on 17 it," --
18 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
19 MALE PHONE CALLER: -- and so on. "Just wipe 20 it up and then we'll -- we'll check the rags up after you 21 wipe it up," blah, blah, blah. "We have messoline rags,"
22 et cetera.
23 Then you say, "No, I -- you know, get somebody 24 down here first." Well, they would raise cain with you.
25 And then the next thing would be, "To hell with it. Just f'%.
( )
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38 1 leave it.
Go over and do that over there."
2
,m Now, many a time I have seen puddles that have I ) 3, been -- been, excuse me, been tested, and the counters t
4 '
would just go so erratic, it would -- it would make your 5 head spin.
6 MS. LUXTON: The radiation counters?
7 MALE PHONE CALLER: Certainly, quite 8 certainly. You know, you had leaks here, there and 9 everywhere.
10 MS. LUXTON: So --
11 MALE PHONE CALLER: And every time you 12 reported a leak, you were a pain in the neck, you know?
13 "What were you doing over there? What were you doing over p 14 here?" I, one time, worked out there for one solid week C/
15 in one particular area, and I don't know how many reports 16 I made for one valve dripping, one valve.
17 I kept reporting that valve and reporting that 18 valve. I was finally told, "Why don't you mind your 19 busir.ess?"
20 MS. LUXTON: Really?
21 MALE PHONE CALLER: That's right.
22 MS. LUXTON: I mean, I -- why do I say 23 "Really?"
24 MALE PHONE CALLER: That's right. Well, three 25 weeks later I finally went back in that area, three weeks
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i l l
39 .
l l
1 later, and that valve was still dripping.
2 MS. LUXTON: Oh.
l
,-)
(_, JI MALE PHONE CALLER: Okay? Now, I went back to 1
i , , cass and told my boss. I said, "What in the hell is i l
5 going on around here?" He said, " Don't get involved in i 6 junk like that." Can you imagine?
7 Well needless to say, I don't work for 8 Millstone. I got the hell out of there --
9 MS. LUXTON: I'll tell --
10 MALE PHONE CALLER: -- because I -- I just 11 couldn't take it anymore up there, you know?
12 MS. LUXTON: Well, you know, I think you 13 probably did a good thing for your health-wise too, I
\~sl
\
14 because those are not the kind of conditions we want l
15 people working in.
16 MALE PHONE CALLER: For certain. Well --
17 MS. LUXTON: You're talking about radiation 18 here.
19 MALE PHONE CALLER: Well, you know, this Don 22 Miller and this whole gang out there, you know, each --
21 every one of them, again, I keep repeating the same thing.
22 Criminal charges should be brought up against each and 23 every one of them.
24 Mr. Fox, I don't know what the devil NRC is
- 25 thinking about with this Mr. Fox. But that's the guy that
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t 40 1 everybody's got to go after. He's known for many, many 2 years exactly what's happening in that plant.
7 L) 3! MS. LUXTON: But you know what? You see, the a
4 NR -- !
i 5 MALE PHONE CALLER: But you know what's !
l A happening? His -- his understudies are the ones that are l 7 -- that they're throwing hatchets at. You know what I'm ,
3 saying?
9 MS. LUXTON: Yes, right, right.
10 MALE PHONE CALLER: You can't hold --
11 MR. VERDUN: Let me tell you a story about Mr.
12 . Fox, sir.
13 MALE PHONE CALLER: Pardon me?
pm
- ) 14 MR. VERDUN
- Let me tell you a story about Mr.
%J 15 Fox that probably a lot of listeners don't know, but a lot 16 of the people at the plant do know about. One time as a 17 young engineer, he was an engineer on Unit I.
18 MALE PHONE CALLER: Yes.
19 MR. VERDUN: So, he certainly knew or should 20 have known about the refueling violations that were taking 21 place with respect to the full-core off-load. It has been 22 going on since day one.
23 And he was an engineer in Unit I Engineering.
24 He was around that site. He was intimately familiar with 25 that site for years before he began to progress up the p) t
(,
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41 1 ladder.
2 MALE PHONE CALLER: Right.
,q
() 3p MR. VERDUN: And incidentally, Bob Bush just 4 Hg:t fired because of his attitude towards employees l 5 pr:.marily I believe, and his arrogant attitude towards 6 employees, and the fact that he was nothing but a -- a 7 bully that pushed his weight around and --
8 MALE PHONE CALLER: I knew Bob Bush, sure.
9 MR. VERDUN: -- and basically exerting --
10 exerted his -- his influence to put people in situations 11 where they took risks with safety, in my opinion. I 12 MALE PHONE CALLER: Yes.
13 MR. VERDUN: Mr. Fox condoned that behavior f\, 14 from the beginning. He was Mr. Bush's boss.
wJ 15 MALE PHONE CALLER: Yes.
16 MR. VERDUN: That guy needs to go.
17 MALE PHONE CALIER Oh yes.
18 MR. VERDUN: They need to get him out of there 19 fast.
20 MALE PHONE CALLER: He needed a muscle-man out 21 there to look good with the stockholders. That's exactly 22 whar. it amounted to. And again, that situation you're 23 talking about, the tank that you saw the sludge, high 24 radiation sludge, and so on, that goes on in I, II, and 25 III all the time, you know?
/ \
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. 1 42 I 1
And again, it's the dollar over the safety.
2 You know what I'm saying?
/'~N l
\ ,)
3 MS. LUXTON: Yes. Thank you, sir. I'm going l
l 4
- -- I'm going to go to the next caller, okay? l j
i 5 MALE PHONE CALLER: My pleasure. l 6 MS. LUXTON: Thanks so much for calling. l 1
7 MALE PHONE CALLER: Right.
8 MS. LUXTON: It was great to hear from you.
9 Wow, how about that, a confirmation of -- we've heard this 10 before.
11 MR. VERDUN: Well, it's kind of a confirmation 12 of what the employees in the -- in the rad waste facility 13 told me when I was down there, that they didn't feel 14
[~}
x_-
comfortable about working under those conditions.
15 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
16 MR. VERDUN: They had grown kind of complacent 17 about it and realizing there was nothing they could really la do to change the situation --
19 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
20 MR. VERDUN: -- by themselves. So, they were 21 kind of reaching out to me --
22 MS. LUXTON: What a shame.
23 MR. VERDUN: -- to help them.
24 MS. LUXTON: What a shame. Unfortunately --
s 25 MR. VERDUN: And so I tried to do --
l \
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43 1 MS. LUXTON: Unfortunately, you were cut off 2 before you could. Okay, let's go on. Now, we -- we ID
(_,/ 3 wanted to ask other employees to call if they could 4
because you'd like to do a support group, right --
5 MR. VERDUN: Absolutely.
6 MS. LUXTON: -- for the terminated -- for the 7 people who were terminated?
8 MR. VERDUN: Right. One of the primary 9 reasons why I'm here tonight is I want to try to get the 10 word out to the 104 people that were terminated --
11 (Telephone ringing) 12 MR. VERDUN: -- on January lith to get in 13 touch with us sogehow through either getting in touch with
'~
)
js -} 14 you or calling me directly so we can get a support --
i, 15 MS. LUXTON: Do you want to give your number?
l 16 MR. VERDUN: -- group going. My home phone ;
I i
17 number is (860) 442-6339. You can call me, tell me your 18 story. And we need to get a big database going so we can 19 get probably a class action lawsuit going against these i
20 people. i 21 MS. LUXTON: Good.
22 (Dial tone).
23 MS. LUXTON: Uh-oh. Hi, did I lose it? You 24 know, I've been doing very well with the phone for the
_ 25 last few weeks.
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44 1 MR. VERDUN: (Laughing).
2 MS, LUXTON: I really have.
t , ,
U) f 31 t
MR. VERDUN: Yes, 4 MS. LUXTON: I think I lost you. Please call 5 back. I'm sorry. I thought I was -- oh no, I think I !
6 pushed -- wait a minute. Hello?
7 MALE PHONE CALLER: Yes, hello. ,
I a MS. LU'XTON : Oh, I'm sorry. I thought i'd l
9 lost you. Gee, I saved myself here. How you doing? l 10 MALE PHONE CALLER: Okay, thank you. Good
)
l 11 evening.
I l
12 MS. LUXTON: Good evening. What's on your l 13 mind?
14 MALE PHONE CALLER:
(Y,.
Just an easy question.
15 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
16 MALE PHONE CALLER: Any -- any chance the 17 Millstone could be shut down forever, and to make the --
18 safe?
19 MS. LUXTON: Who wants to take that? Do you
, 20 want to take --
21 MR. VERDUN: I'll take that one. I don't 22 think -- I don't want to see Millstone -- Millstone shut 23 down forever. And Susan doesn't want to see Millstone 24 shut down forever either.
25 MS. LUXTON: I don't? Wait a minute, now.
73 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W (202) 234 4433 WASHINGTON. D C 20005-3701 (202) 234 4 33
i 45 1 MR. VERDUN: Well --
2 MS. LUXTON: Speak for yourself, Gary.
(
\/ ~
3ll MR. VERDUN: Ah, well --
4 MS. LUXTON: You go first --
i
- N MR. VERDUN: Okay. j l
1 6 MS. LUXTON: -- and then I'll go.
l 7 MR. VERDUN: I'll -- I'll speak for myself. I 8 don't want to see Millstone shut down forever. What I i 9 want to see is I want to see Millstone adhering to the 10 letter of the law. I'd want to -- I don't want to see 11 these people breaking federal laws.
12 I don't want to see them discriminating 13 against employees. I don't want to see them breaking ry
( 4 14 Department of Labor laws. I don't want to see them
%.j' 15 challenging every single law and every single issue that -
16 - that comes up and trying to push it to the maximum --
17 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
18 MR. VERDUN: -- and stretch everything to the 19 limit.
20 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
21 MR. VERDUN: That's the kind of situation that 22 got them in this situation. That's the kind of thing that 23 led to the current situation. They have no credibility 24 with the community. They have no credibility with the 7g 25 NRC.
t )
s_/
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46 i
They have to no credibility with any of the 2 people that were terminated. They have no credibility
(~T s ,,)
3 Hwith their own employees because their own employees see 0
4 what's happening to other people, and they know that it's 5 probably not too long before they're going to get the same 6 kind of treatment.
7 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
8 MR. VERDUN: They have no credibility with 9 their stockholders, and they shouldn't have any 10 credibility at this point with their Board of Directors.
11 But for some reason, upper level management 12 still seems to have retained some kind of credibility with 13 the Board of Directors. That -- that's something that's
('T L) 14 beyond my ability to comprehend.
15 The Board of Directors needs to flush these 16 guys out, find out who the people are that have been 17 forcing the company into this situation, got them into 18 this embarrassing situation with all these violations of 19 federal laws, state laws, employment laws.
20 They've got -- Board of Directors, you've got 21 to get these people out of here. Because if you don't, 22 all the stockholders in your company are going to lose 23 their shirts. That stock won't be worth --
24 MS. LUXTON: Even more than they have, right?
,_ 25 MR. VERDUN: -- two cents --
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! l 47 1
MALE PHONE CALLER: Excuse me, but -- !
1 2 MR. VERDUN:
7s when these people are done with i I t/ 3 you.
l 4 ! (End of Tape 1, Side A.)
3 (Start of Tape 1, Side B.)
6 MALE PHONE CALLER: You're probably right, Mr.
l 7 Gary. I shut up.
l 8 MS. LUXTON: You know what?
9 MR. VERDUN: No, you're still on.
10 MS. LUXTON: It's --
11 MALE PHONE CALLER: Yes, please. The 12 gentleman there, Mr. Gary, is absolutely right. But this 13 -- another question. I've got the family here. They Q
O 14 can't sleep, you know, at night just think about what's 15 going on over there. A lot of people they're moving out 16 from Waterford.
17 MS. LUXTON: Hmmm.
18 MALE PHONE CALLER: They say how -- you know, 19 you cannot trust anymore. I'm surprised the -- the 20 government, Mr. Roland get involved more, no?
21 MS. LUXTON: I'm surprised also.
22 MALE PHONE CALLER: I know. I mean --
23 MR. VERDUN: I think everybody is very 24 surprised with Mr. Roland's stand on this issue. He came 25 to Millstone one day and spent a couple of hours here, did f
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48 1
a cursory inspection of the site, and then made some 2
pronouncement -- pronouncement that he thought the site
) 3 was safe, and left.
1 4
I mean, I think that that basically was --
5 MS. LUXTON: Irresponsible.
6 MR. VERDUN: -- totally irresponsible on the 7 part of the government.
8 MALE PHONE CALLER: Yes.
9 MR. VERDUN: He's not looking or listening or 10 reading or hearing what's actually happened down here --
11 MS. LUXTON: Right.
12 MR. VERDUN: -- at the site. If you're 13 listening, Mr. Governor, if you'd care to give me a call, 14 I'd be more than happy to take a couple of minutes of my
/)N
\
. 15 time and talk to you about this. I do have a pretty busy 16 schedule, but I think I could fit you in.
17 MS. LUXTON: (Laughter . ) Thanks so much for 18 calling, sir.
19 MALE PHONE CALLER: Thank you, Susan. Good 20 night.
21 MS. LUXTON: Good night. Well, you know, 22 getting back to what I think about it, it's not that I 23 want to see them shut down forever. But if they can't run 24 safely, I definitely don't think they should start up 25 until we can be convinced they do.
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49 1
I think I'd feel a lot better if they weren't 2 here at all. But I think we, as a state, have to start g
Iw) 3 iccking to alternatives to nuclear energy. We're so 4 de,cendent on them.
I i
n And I think it's wonderful that Mr. Blumenthal 6 I came i out with this whole deregulation: all the 7 information on deregulation, making it known to the 8 public, step by step of the way, because that's looming on 9 the horizon. We're going to have a show on that too.
10 But, let's go on.
11 MR. VERDUN: Susan, I'd like to interject one 12 ' thing --
13 MS. LUXTON: Go ahead.
[ 14 MR. VERDUN: -- before you go on to the next
\ _/
15 issue.
16 MS. LUXTON: You can interject anything, Gary.
17 MR. VERDUN: We've -- we have -- we've 18 forgotten about 13 other very important people --
19 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
20 MR. VERDUN: -- in this process, and those are 21 13 people that were working for me in 1994 --
22 MS. LUXTON: Yes.
23 MR. VERDUN: -- early in 1994, that were also 24 termin ted at Millstone. There are 13 housekeepers that 7
25 were terminated in early 1994, and they were also
^
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t 50 1 subjected to the same kind of a process that this 104 2 were.
("g
's l ! There's really not 104 people's livelihoods 4 J: bat are at stake here. It's a 117.
t 5 MS. LUXTON: Seventeen, j 1
6 MR. VERDUN: So if any of the 13 people {
7 working for me that were terminated by the company, and 8 without my knowledge incidentally or my approval, without 9 any discussions with me whatsoever, I'd like to have those 10 13 people also get in touch with me because I want to try 11 to get them included in this support group.
12 The sooner we can take this thing with a --
13 some kind of a class action or law suit, but we need to
'O ; 14 work together on this as a united effort to have the w/
15 greatest impact.
16 MS. LUXTON: Oh, that's great, Gary. Good for 17 you. Good for you. All right, let's talk about what was l
18 in the news today. Now, we had two articles in The New 19 London Day today. One at the bottom of The New London Day 20 was "NRC advising quick evacuation in the event of a 21 nuclear accident." Well, isn't it about time they got 22 around to doing that? Two miles out, they want them 23 evacuated immediately.
24 But they said they've found that people
,- 25 evacuate up to 50 miles out, Gary, up to 50 miles out i )
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i 51 i
cecause like Mr. Sheridan said to us once with the 2 emergency evacuation plan, "If they find out the wind is
(\
!q,) 3 going a certain way, they'll evacuate that neighborhood."
4 MR. VERDUN: Because that's --
5 (Telephone ringing).
6 MR. VERDUN: -- where the plume -- that's 7 where the radioaction goes.
8 MS. LUXTON: Right where the plume is going.
9 But so I'm -- I'm right on the border of that 10 neighborhood. And I see everybody over there going, 11 right, and I'm --
12 MR. VERDUN: Yes.
13 MS. LUXTON: -- supposed to sit here and O 14 think, "Well," --
b 15 MR. VERDUN: (Laughing).
16 MS. LUXTON: -- "okay, no problem. I think 17 I'll have a cup of iced tea."
18 MR. VERDUN: (Laughing).
19 MS. LUXTON: Forget it, they all move out.
20 MR. VERDUN: Yes.
21 MS. LUXTON: It's ridiculous, the evacuation 22 plan. Let's see if I can get these people.
23 (Dial tone).
24 MS. LUXTON: Oh my God. Hi, you're on Nuclear 25 Safety Issues.
( \
\)
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52 1 FEMALE PHONE CALLER: Hello? ;
i 2 MS. LUXTON: Hi. 1 I
k 3 FEMALE PHONE CALLER: Hi, I have a question 4 for Gary.
5 MS. LUXTON: Sure.
)
6 FEMALE PHONE CALLER: Why.did he wait 16 years ;
7 waiting to get laid-off? Why didn't he leave before that 8 if it was so unsafe?
9 MR. VERDUN: I did not say that the~ plant was 10 unsafe for 16 years. I said that the plant began to 11 degrade in 1987, and that --
and that by -- by 19 --
12 because of budget cuts and because of management attitude, 13 the arrogance of the management towards their employees,
[ 14 that because of nuclear safety concerns that came along, 15 the site began to degrade.
16 It degraded in steps. In 1987, it was a 17- world-class nuclear power plant. And there were a lot of 18 proud people working there. And certainly -- and 19 incidentally, there are a lot of proud people working 20 there today.
H21 Most -- almost all of my friends in my life 22 worked there,- the majority of my friends. They're highly 23 specialized, highly technical, highly educated people, and 24 they're real professionals.
25 But the problem is when -- when this O NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W.
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53 ,
i management regime came in, the new management regime came
,a 2 in, they began to drag this site down with them. And they e s V 3 f:reated -- they took a world-class performing nuclear 4
power plant -- it became a level two plant.
5 And then recently, it became a level three, 6 troubled plant. So, this -- this wasn't a situation that 7 existed for my whole career. And I have been very proud 8
to say that I worked for Northeast Utilities for many of 9 those years.
10 MS. LUXTON: Ma'am, I think you're under the 11 mis -- the misimpression that Gary didn't move. Gary got 12 terminated. He didn't lay himself off. They --
13 FEMALE PHONE CALLER: I understand that.
(h 14 MS. LUXTON: Okay, okay.
V 15 MR. VERDUN: Does that answer your question, 16 ma'am?
17 FEMALE P.'40NE CALLER : I guess so, thanks.
18 MR. VERDUN: You're welcome.
19 MS. LUXTON: Okay, we have five minutes left.
20 Okay, there was another article in the paper today saying 21 that we've got a full commission now, Gary. Did you know 22 that?
23 MR. VERDUN: Yes.
24 MS. LUXTON: The NRC now has two new 25 commissioners.
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54 1 MR. VERDUN: I read that in the paper this 2 morning.
p
() 3 il MS. LUXTON: Both -- they -- they have to be i , ';:.:;rmed by the Senate, but this is good I think, il 5 MR. VERDUN: Yes.
6 MS. LUXTON: The more commissioners, the 7 better.
8 MR. VERDUN: Yes.
9 MS. LUXTON: I mean, now they're working with 10 a full board.
11 MR. VERDUN: That's right.
12 MS. LUXTON: So, that's good.
13 MR. VERDUN: They now have a full deck again.
/O 14 MS. LUXTON: Full deck. Hey, we didn't talk d I 15 about -- hey, let's talk about that funny thing that we 16 were going to talk about, Gary, that I had forgotten about 17 the --
18 (Phone ringing).
19 MS. LUXTON: -- the Northville Mountain Team -
20 -
MR. VERDUN: Oh, yes.
21 MS. LUXTON: -- the team building fiasco.
22 MR. VERDUN: Yes.
23 MS. LUXTON: That's funny. Okay, hi, you're 24 on Nuclear Safety Issues.
25 FEMALE PHONE CALLER: Yes, I have a real
' V' NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON. D C- 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
~ . .~. -. - - _ . . - -. - ..- .- ..-.. - -..- -.. ._ -.
55 1 serious concern here that I would-love to know how you 1 i
could be such experts on this if you can't even pronounce 3 " nuclear" properly. It's not "nucular," and that really 4 gets to me for you people to come across as if you're '
5 experts. Do consider practicing saying " nuclear."
6 MS. LUXTON: Ma'am?
7 FEMALE PHONE CALLER: Yes.
8 MS. LUXTON: I never said I was an expert.
9 FEMALE PHONE CALLER: Well, you're sure 10 sounding like you're talking about you have all the best 11 interests of all of us in our hearts.
12 MS. LUXTON: Well, I -- I have my own best 1
13 interest at heart and my family's best' interests at heart. '
14 and I hope --
15 FEMALE PHONE CALLER: Well --
16 MS. LUXTON: -- you do too.
17 FEMALE PHONE CALLER: -- it's very interesting 18 when all these discussions with people who have created a 19 situation where the industry has to lay people off is now 20 shocked that they're laying them off.
21 So I mean, let's -- you're creating something.
22 Let's deal with it, and not get too uptight about it. But 23 do please practice saying " nuclear," would you?
24 MR. VERDUN: Thank you for your call, ma'am.
25 FEMALE PHONE CALLER: Do you think you can O NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. g
-(202) 234-4433 WASHING J D C. 20005-3701 (202) 2344433 1 l
i
56
- 1. handle that? " Nuclear" is the way it's pronounced, not 2 "nucular."
3 MS. LUXTON: Thank you, ma'am.
4 FEMALE PHONE CALLER: Thank you.
5 MR. VERDUN: Thank you for your call, ma'am.
6 MS. LUXTON: Hmmm, that was interesting. Are 7 we the disgruntled employees that made the situation?
8 MR. VERDUN: No, I'-- I.was never a 9 disgruntled employee. I was a loyal employee for.the 10 company. I did my. job. I played by the rules. I was 11 terminated by the company.
12 Now, I'm an -- I'm a former employee. I'm 13 here to tell you things that people that work at Northeast 14 Utilities are really not free to say without fear of 15 reprisal.
16 (Phone ringing) 17- MS.'LUXTON: Hi, you're on Nuclear Safety 18 Issues.
19 FEMALE PHONE CALLER: Hi, I've been told to 20 hurry, so I will. But ever since the day President Carter 21 pronounced it "nucular," I've been thinking that " nuclear" 22 was the proper pronunciation. But I looked it up in the 23 dictionary, and both pronunciations are accepted.
24 So, even though you don't know your " nuclear" 25 stuff --
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}- 57 1 MR. VERDUN: (Laughing).
- i. 2 FEMALE PHONE CALLER: --
you are pronouncing 3 it correctly.
l 4 MS. LUXTON: Well, thank you, ma'am.
5 MR. VERDUN: Thank you very much, ma'am.
6 FEMALE PHONE CALLER: Bye-bye.
7 MS. LUXTON: Bye.
8 MR. VERDUN: Was that the same lady?
9 MS. LUXTON: No, that was a different lady.
10 MR. VERDUN: Oh, okay.
11 MS. LUXTON: But --
12 (Dial tone).
13 MS. LUXTON: -- I don't care how I pronounce 14 it, to tell you the truth. The point is " nuclear,"
15 "nucular," I could have a little twang in it. I.might 16 come from Texas and say "nuclea" or someplace like that.
17 MR. VERDUN: (Laughing).
18 MS. LUXTON: The point is you understand the 19 word I'm saying I hope, okay? Northville Mountain, we're 20 not going to get a chance to talk about that.
21 MR. VERDUN: Well, we --
22 MS. LUXTON: We have about one minute left.
23 MR. VERDUN: Oh, one minute?
24 MS. LUXTON: Right, Mary, one minute left?
25 Yes, we won't be able to talk about it. We're going to O NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N W.
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58 1 have to --
2 MR. VERDUN: Well, we can talk about that on 3 another show.
4 MS. LUXTON: We can -- right, right. Okay, I 5 want to just give a couple -- an update of a couple of 6 things that are coming up.
7 .(Phone ringing).
8 MS. LUXTON: Why are you giving me another 9 call if we only have one minute left?
10 (Dial tone).
'll MS. LUXTON: Hi, this has to be quick if you
) 12 want to have a question.
t i
2 13 MALE PHONE CALLER: Yes, I have a beautiful 14 request to you and to the fellow next to you.
[ 15 MS. LUXTON: Yes, t
i 16 MALE PHONE CALLER: Why do you have so much j
[ 17 talk and the -- no do the job once and for all? You do it 18 the -- in this situation, they cannot operate anymore at t
19 this particular nuclear location plant. So, I hope they
- 20 do something now, not too much talk.
21 I read that paper, I read the -- the subject.
- 22 I read the - . They still hire these people. Why they 23 not be prosecuted?
l 24 MS. LUXTON: Thank you, sir. I agree v-
- 25 completely. Bye.
O NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBER 6 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE , N W.
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i i I
j- 59 1 MALE PHONE CALLER: Bye.
e MS. LUXTON: Okay, folks, meeting coming up on t
3 September lith, Dr. Jay Gould, Jordan Firehouse at 7:30.
i
- 4l It's a CRC lecture series. We're going to be talking 1
5 about cancer in our community and around nuclear power
.! 6 plants. Thank you, Gary, for being here.
i
! 7 MR. VERDUN: Thank you very much, Susan. I f
j 8 MS. LUX'"ON : We have -- thanks so.much. I a
MR. VERDUN:
9 It's a pleasure to be here.
- 10 MS. LUXTON: Come back again, okay?
( 11 MR. VERDUN: I think you do a very good j i 12 ' service for this community, j 13 MS. LUXTON: Thanks~.
i 14 MR. VERDUN: It's a pleasure.
1.
i 15 MS. LUXTON: You too, thanks.
) 16 MR. VERDUN: Thank you.
! 17 MS. LUXTON: See you next week, folks.
j I
13 (Closing music.)
19 (End of Tape 1, Side B.)
20 l
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22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE , N W (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON O C 20005-3701 1202) 234 4 33
60 CERTI F ICATE
(~ This is to certify that the attached V} proceedings before the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the matter of:
Name of Proceeding: Connecticut Public N .-vi s ion Broadcast re Nuclear Safety Issues on August 29, ;>>6 l
Docket Number: (not applicable)
Place of Proceeding: Television Broadcast were held as herein app-ars, and that this is the cr ginal transcript :ner-a: :cr ne lle of t he United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission taken by me and, thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under the direction of the
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( ) court reporting company, and that the transcript is a true
%.J and accurate record of the foregoing proceedings.
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'N NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBdRS 4 023 HHoOE ISLAND AVE . N W i i
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTCN D C 2000'>3701 M2 5 2 34-4433