ML20198G950
| ML20198G950 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Millstone  |
| Issue date: | 08/12/1997 |
| From: | NRC |
| To: | |
| References | |
| NUDOCS 9709050234 | |
| Download: ML20198G950 (205) | |
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VERBATIM PROCEEDINGS NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION PUBLIC FORUM IN THE MATTER OF NORTHEAST UTILITIES, MILLSTONE UNITS 1, 2 AND 3 pp-3- AUGUST 12, 1997 I .j 'r
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; --- HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
~ j)] - AUGUST'12, 1997
.1 . . . Verbatim- Proceedings of the Public
'2 Forum of =the United States -Nuclear Regulatory 3 Commission!=in - the matter- of Northeast Utilities, 4 Millstone LUnits 1, 2 and' -3, held August 12, 1997, at 5 17:00 P.M., at the-Waterford Town Hall, 15 Rope Ferry
=6 -Road, Waterford, Connecticut.
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-8 9
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.A:
; 12 MR WAYNE - LANNING: Good morning. I'm
)
. 13 Deputy Director for II.spections with the -Special 14 Projects Office.
. 15 This is a meeting between the NRC and 16 you, the public, tonight. This is the NRC's continuing 117 efforts to keep the-- public-informed of activities that e L18 have-been' going;on at' Millstone. I
- -. 19 We have a short agenda tonight, I thi....
-20 very informative discussions tonight, also. We'll
-ot 4 21 first' hear from the Little Harbor Consultants. They I
j 22 chave been -overseeing the Employee Concerns Program at-ib L23 -Millstone. And then we'll 4 have a status of the
'24 Action Verification process '
l Independent' Corrective' POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 g r -- .w- - , . - - . - - , - .
3 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS ( .) . AUGUST 12, 1997 1 after that. 2 And I ask you that -- to abide by our 3 rule that you limit your questions to the topic that 4 we've just discussed. We'll continue to have our 5 general question-and-answer session at the end of the 6 prior presentations. 7 I'd like to mention that we've had two 8 previous meetings. And I mention them because these 9 two meetings were transcribed . :1d a copy of the 10 transcript both from the Commission meeting we had on R 11 August 6 that involved Northeast Utilities, Sargent & 12 Lundy, Parsons, Little Harbor Consultants and NRC
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13 staff, and also we had a meeting on July 31 with 14 Northeast Utilities. This was a meeting with the 15 licensee where they were -- in Headquarters. And the 16 purpose of the meeting was really for Northeast 17 Utilities to share with us their planned and completed b 18 activities regarding employees' ability to raise 19 concerns without feat of retaliation. I-t 20 We had a meeting this afternoon with
- O 21 was
< Northeast Utilities. This our normal status I
g 22 meeting. We went through a lot of the indicators. We l 23 got some insights into various programs, the duration 24 of programs, for example. A lot of the information b'~' POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 4
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1 4 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () AUGUST 12, 1997 1 that was presented today had previously been presented 2 at the Commission only in more detail. So that 3 information is available for you. 4 So we'll -- I guess one last 5 announcement. The meeting is being transcribed. And 6 so if you would please identify yourself when you ask a 7 question, it would certainly help our Reporter. 8 So, with that, let me turn it over to 9 Phil McKee. 10 MR. PHIL McKEE: I'm going to be brief g- 11 in my comments. I just want to mention on July 15 we e 12 provided correspondence that approved the plan (7)s x_ 13 submitted by Little Harbor Consultants for oversight of 14 activities by Northeast Utilities to implement their 15 plan for addressing and handling issues and concerns 16 raised by employees. 17 On July 22, there was a meeting open to h 18 the public between Northeast Utilities, Little Harbor
- 19 and the NRC. And the primary purpose at that meeting i
e 20 was to discuss the results of some intervievc that O
= 21 Little Harbor had condu- d with a number of Northeast -l 22 Utilities employees and contractors on the environment g ! 23 and attitudes and dealings in the past and present at 24 Millstone. And, also, they presented the results of POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
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> HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
( AUGUST 12, 1997 1 their assessment of the implementation of the Employee 2 Concerns Program plan and elements. 3 And rather than going in and summarizing , 4 what we've done, we have -- and it was requested I 5 think at one of our earlier meetings that Little Harbor 6 Consultants be made available and give presentations. 7 So, rather than hear my summary, we have Little Harbor 8 with us today and they're going to give you a summary 9 and details-on some of the results of their activities. 10 So, with that, John? 11 MR. JOHN BECK: Phil, thank you very 12 much. 13 I'm John Beck, President of Little 14 Harbor Consultants. I'm the Tet.n Manager for the 15 Little Harbor oversight activities of the Employee 16 Concerns Program at Millstone. And with me at the 17 table this evening is John Griffin, who is Deputy Team 18 Manager, and Billie Garde, a member of the Little f
, 19 Harbor team.
lr- 20 We're pleased to be with you this o a 21 evening and talk about the results of our structured
- g. 22 interviews at Millstone and the evaluation-we did of j h- 23 the Employee Concerns Program implementation.
24 We provided in the back of the room POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
l 6 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
-bg AUGUST 12, 1997 1 three handouts. These handouts consist of the slides 2 we used in the presentation during a public meeting the 3 afternoon of July 22 regarding the structured 4 interviews and the ECP program implementation' review, 5 plus the slides we used last week in a presentation to 6 the akC Commissioners.
7 We, obviously, don't have sufficient 8 time this evening to cover all the material. So what I 9 thought we would do is provide a summary of our current 10 assessment of the safety-conscious work environment at 11 Millstone and our evaluation of the Employee Concerns 12 Program. We'll be happy to answer any questions you
/v)
13 may have regarding any of our activities following this 14 summary presentation. 15 On July 22, as I indicated, we reported 16 to the NRC and company management the recults of our 17 structured interviews in a public meeting at the site. f 5- 18 This presentation covered the structured interviews
-_ 19 which were done between June 16 and July 10. We ir 20 interviewed 239 individuals at the site. This O-
- -21 consisted of 207 Northeast Utilities employees and 32 1
g 22 contract employees, which included representatives from
$ 23 every work group at the station. The 207 Northeast 24 Utilities employees represented about 10 percent of the i POST REPORTING SERVICE RAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
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D . 7 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS' AUGUST 12, 1997
- 1 Northeast employees at-the site.
[ =2 These interviews were voluntary. We did 3 the selection of those -.to be interviewed, but it was i 14 voluntary on the part of those who were asked. They 5 -were non-attributive and were condu-%'d in a 6 confidential setting. , 7 We explained the purpose- of. our 8 oversight role to those being interviewed- and the
-9 purpose of the interviews and used a' questionnaire that
'10 was developed .specifically for the Millstone R, 11 environment.
-g.
12 {}. We asked- those interviewed to rate
-13 various attributes on a scale of 1 to 5 where it was 14 appropriate and also asked them to tell us how-they 15 felt about various issues today and how they= felt about 16 these same-issues a year ago.
.17 In general,- we found an improving Ji I 18 environment. While the average numbers look positive, I 19 we cautioned utility management that these are only r; -20 averages. Answers to several of the questions'have o
. 21 large1 standard deviations indicating that there are
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22
} pockets: within the organization where all is not well.
-l 23 Today, we received indication that there
~24 was no objection from the NRC with sharing some of the
() POST REPORTING SERVICE i l HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i,
e 8-HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
- -AUGUST 12, 1997.
- f. 1 i data. that.we :have- and information that we gathered 2 through the_ interviews : with . respect to where the 13 pockets are at the site.
h 4 We reported-in our July 22 m^eting that i- , 5 -we had not done so at that time because of the concern-d 6 in doing . hauan perhaps to individuals who might- be l 7 indicated in some of this information and we wanted to 8 be certain that, above all, as I guess ~the order goes 9 to the physician, first do no harm. That's not- why 10 we're'here. E- =11 So under regulatory requirements, under
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12 Section- 2.790, we were withholding from public 13 dissemination the names of individuals or information
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14 that might implicate individuals. And as I indicated,
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15 we will very shortly, perhaps as early as tomorrow, be 16 sharing the particular-information-with regard to where 17 'w e think the pockets.are at the: site 1where additional
.I 18 work is certainly called for as a result of these I
t 19 interviews.
.r. 20 The first slide summarizes what we found 0 -'
. 21 concerning the willingness-of the work force to raise
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22 safety concerns in today's environment. We found,.for g l;- 23 -example, that management's expectation for raising 24 concerns has been clearly and effectively communicated I ' POST REPORTING SERVICE
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9 ~- - _ HEARING RE: - MILLSTONE UNITS l AUGUST 12, 1997 3 1 to- the work [ - force. 94 percent ofj those interviewed 2 responded that if they had a safety. concern, they knew 3 _they were expected to- raise it. Also when asked, 100 4 percent of those interviewed responded that if they F 5 were aware of a nuclear safety _ concern, they would' 6 raise that concern via' one of the available options, l 7 .either by taking-it to management, taking it to. the 8 _ Employee Concerns Program or taking it to the NRC. We [ 9 believe this says a lot about the basic safety ethic of 10 Millstone employees today. ':? 11 We also determined -that- those-12 -interviewed had greater confidence today that a safety j 13 concern once raised would be resolved. This slide
- 14 shows the increased level of confidence from a year 15 ago. We- also: asked questions about . raising any-16 concern, including issues that would' involve personal
- - -17 matters, human-resources or management concerns.
- - l 18 While most people-indicated an improved Dl~
; 19 : environment for raising these concerns as well, there ;- l '
, r: 20 were approximately 50 individuals .who had-_ expressed O
). - 21 some level of discomfort in raising these types: of
_ l-22 personnel related- issues. There's obviously room for
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23 continued improvement in.this area. ]'l-24 During the interviews, we also asked > tO
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.10 Lh A U 17 T 1 questions intended to gather data on how the work force 2 feels about various attributes of a safety-conscious 3 work environment.- As you can see,-there's been'an 4 improvement in the questioning attitude of the work 5 force in the eyes.of those who we. interviewed.
6 You can also see that the -effect of 7 self-assessment results or effort.. has not been totally 8 effective. Less than 50 percent .of those interviewed 9 were able to identify any substantive change that had 10 occurred as a result of self-assessment activities. .R. '11 There also has 'been a substantial g 12 improvement in the perception of chilling effect at the 13 site or,-to be more exact, the lack'of chillingJeffect 14 at Millstone. At the time the interviews were 15 conducted, a value of one was used to mean a' total- { 4 1 16 black chilling- effect. The average of 1,8 today
]
-17 indicates a significant improvement in_ the eyes of l- 18 those interviewed from how they felt a year ago. But,
~ 19 as we pointed out to management, there are still r J20 pockets at the station where chilling effect concerns o
-. 21 -continue to exist.
~ll .
=22 We also asked questions-to determine the
-lt :23 level of confidence in the Employee- Concerns Program 1 24 itself. While there has been an improvement in that O POST REPORTING SERVICE , HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
11 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS [-) AUGUST 12, 1997 1 level of confidence, as evidenced by the top graph on I 2 this scale, eight percent of those interviewed said 3 that they would not use the Employee Concerns Program. 4 And the reasors ranged from a lack of trust in the 5 program to a belief that ECP did not have the authority 6 necessary to obtain resolution. 7 The next segment of the presentation will 8 address our findings as they relate to the Employee 9 Concerns Program and its implementation. And we'll 10 also talk about some of the concerns expressed by those 11 we interviewed. 12 The company's Comprehensive Plan which 13 was submitted in response to the NRC's order of last 14 October 24 committed to extensive revisions to the 15 Employee Concerns Program at Millstone. And for the 16 past several months, we've been monitoring their 17 progress toward implementation of this new program.
! 18 The company has made major improvements 19 in the area of employee concerns. They've made !r 20 available the resources and the facilities necessary to o . 21 implement the program. They have developed a new l
g 22 program manual that we consider to be an excellent l 23 document. They've also brought in experienced contract 24 help to help support program implementation and to (y (J POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
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UGU i 1 ; mentor-the company employees. 2 These improvements. are- a -- significant 3 . advancement from the _ earlier program. However, our-4 -review 'of- program implementation has identified a 5 number of deficiencies that. must be corrected before 6 the~ECP will be fully effective and earn the trust of-7 the work force. 8 While they have dedicated sufficient- . 9 resources to this program, not all of the company ECP
-10 employees have been qualified or trained to perform the ;
11 necessary functions expected 'in.an effective Employee 12 Concerns Program. 4 13 Our review of-program activities such as 14 intake-and investigations al'so determined that-the work 15 activities were.not-being performed in accordance -with 16 the new program manual. A very disturbing finding was 17 that discussion with workers who had used-.the program, I-
-.g 18 used the' current Employee Concerns Program,~37 percent f 19 of these individuals would not-use the program again, y r- 1 20 Most of that dissatisfaction was based on the beliefs
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< 21 that the ECP did not~have the independent authority-to k
g 22 resolve issues. I-l 23 We determined _ that nuclear safety 24 concerns and retaliation issues were not being properly O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
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. HEARINC4 RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
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AUGUST-12, 1997 1 _prioritized during the intake -process. Also, the. data 2 base: currently used by: ECP to track concerns- does not i 3 p; ovide _ meaningful information to management. Our
-4 review and. monitoring of ongoing. concerns identify that l
5 -management;does not always . recognize the presence of a 6 hostile'. working environment: or actions that create a
'7 chilling effect.
[ - 8 Our review of over 90 employee concerns 9 files determined- tnat .many .of the files containad 10 insufficient documentation. This lack of. documentation
-R 11 made it very_ difficult for us to determine if the 3
/ 12 resolution was thorough and effective --
or and 13 responsive, rather. We were disappointed that the 14 files' completed under the new program have- not shown 15 any measurable improvement over files completed 16 earlier.: 17 'Our review also indicated- that'. intake 18 and- investigation of concerns are' often performed
)4 E 19 inconsistently and,-in some cases,.have been-improperly Lg:
r 20 classified'as resolved-or: closed, o-7.. 21 The last item on this slide is of k g 22 particular concern and -will be the subject of much of
-b 23 -our activities in the next few months. As you can see, 24 53-percent of all open employee concerns at Millstone
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' HEARING'RE: MILLSTONE UNITS AUGUST 12,-1997=
1 contain complaints of - retaliation. -While this 2 statistic is disturbing, it should be noted that we 3 have not. reached any conclusions as to the validity _of 4 these concerns. We intend to perform a 100-percent 5 review of all current cases of alleged retaliation and 6 be prepared to discuss our findings at future meetings. 7 In spite of this, we believe that the
-8 safety-conscious work environment at Millstone- is ;
l L9 improving. Company management still has a considerable 10 challenge ahead of them to maintain the momentum that R- 11 currently exists. They must also identify the 2 12 remaining managers and supervisors who are continuing 13 to create unacceptable working environments at 14 Millstone and either change the behaviors or change the 15 managers.
-16 We believe that between our interview 17 results and the various surveys conducted by the j
.9 l 10 company, they have sufficient information to deal with
! 19 these organizations and individuals and will closely 20 monito7 their actions,
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= 21 The recent events surrounding the b'_
_g 22 -disciplinary actions taken at Millstone are also =cause h 23 for our_ increased scrutiny. We've been contacted'by 24 several members of the work force concerning this event O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 o
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h ! 15. U bT i 1 -and its impact on the work environment.
'2 We're _ reviewing _ the circumstances ,
3 involved. in- it , . how- the company reacts to their 4 concerns and the resulting impact on the' work force at 5 the plant. - 6 Comnany management also has a 7 considerable amount of work ahead of them to correct 8 the deficiencies with the Employee -Concerns Program. 9 We've been very impressed with the dedication of the-10 ECP work force, both company and contractors,.and with 11 their desire to do the right thing.
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12 We believe with proper- leadership and 13 management support Millstone can'have an outstanding 14 Employee Concerns Program.
-15 That concludes our formal presentation.
16 And we'll be happy to answer any ques +, ions you-may 17 have.
! 18 Mr. Delcore?
I 19 MR. LANNING: Wait just a minute. Would tre i 20 you - before you start, would you -- sorry. Would you O 3 21 Ljust' define what you mean by chilling.effect so that we 1 22 all have the same common understanding?; Ll' 23 MR. BECK: I'want to let our. expert tell 24 us what- chilling effect is. POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
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16 U T 1L MS. BILLIE GARDE:.' Chilling-effect-as we 2 used that: definition was a feeling or belief by zul
- 3 --employee that-they ~ could not raise a safety concern 4 without having some repercussion, whether that be
-5 retaliat. ' an or retribution of any form, and that they~
-6 arrived at that fear by having observed or heard of 7 retribution or retaliation to other employees who had 8 ' raised safety concerns.
9 MR. ' DONALD -DELCORE: Donald Delcore,- t 10 Uncasville, Connecticut. I have a number.of questions. , 1 4 -E .11 MR. WILLIAM TRAVERS: John, you have to , 8 r's 12 turn-yours off. l~ Q 13 MR. BECK: I'm sorry. I- 14 MR. DELCORE: Oh . - I have a number of 15 questions and I-have a few comments. 'First-of all, I'
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16 think that 1: noted on the July-22 meeting that we had a
-17 really stark contrast between what Mr. Griffin and Mr.
18 Beck presented compared to what Billie Garde presented. 2 19 And while I recognize that there. were two distinct:
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- e. 20 _ items that they were dealing with, one was dealing with
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., 21 the ECP program and the ' process and 1: believe John and l 22 John were dealing with: the environment, the work-
{:
.l 23 environment 'ssues, t I'm not sure that what was put- out-
.24 by Mr. -Beck and Mr. Griffin is really indicative of I
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
17 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () AUGUST 12, 1997 1 what we're seeing in the work force and what we're 2 seeing in the environment. 3 And I have some reasons for that. One 4 of the things- that seems to be prevalent is -- I don't 5 know if you took the opportunity to read one of the 6 handouts. And I'm kind of directing my questions to 7 them, John, but I'm really not -- but I really have 8 some things I need to ask you. 9 If you look at the -- there was a very 10 thick document that dealt with a bunch of questions 11 that were asked in those struct'tred interviews. And Lg 12 while I'm absolutely convinct that managet.. nt at 13 Millstone got the message to p ,.e that the answer to 14 give out was that if you had some concerns, you bring 15 them forward, and I'm also convinced that they if they 16 did have concerns, that most of them would bring them 17 forward -- I'm convinced of that now. I mean I don't f
! 18 think -- I think that that point was borne out by their 1 19 structured interviews.
l 20 r But I don't -- what I don't think was 0
. 21 brought out was the fact that there are or were a 1
g 22 number of people that gave some absolutely outrageous 3
-l 23 answers with regard to how they felt under special or 24 any -- would they put any conditions on if they would
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18 f- HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS (_y) AUGUST 12, 1997 4 1 come forward with concerns. And there were some 2 outrageous comments about their management. 3 So one of the questions I have for these 4 guys -- and I -- and as I remember your -- and correct-5 me if I'm wrong. But as I remember your presentation, 6 you said'that first-line supervisors stood pretty well 7 with tne employees in terms of them having some comfort 8 in going to them. And, also, you seemed to indicate 9 'that they had some comfort at the high level, at 10 Kenyon's level. But you really didn't talk about what g 11 went on in between. 12 And I can glean from my reading of those {) 13 questions and those responses that there must have been 14 .some pretty serious problems with regard to some 15 managers someplace. 16 So, if you could, could you respond to 17 that and tell me -- what I really don't think is you I 18 guys really were fair with us. I don't think you told
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19 us that there are some severe problems because those ir 20 responses indicated to me that there were. So could 0
=- 21 you try to expound on that, John?
b
-g 22 MR. BECK: Sure.
l 23 MR. DELCORE: And I'll turn my mike off. 24 MR. BECK: Okay. Now that I know how A
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i 19 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
-( ): AUGUST 12, 1997 1 the system works.
2 We provided in our meeting the answers 3 to every question that we aaked so that there were no 4 questions asked where there weren't answers made 5 available. So there's nothing missing in what we 6 reported to the public. p 7 The score, for example, for how people I-8 rated their supervisor today was, if I recall 9 correctly, a 4.1 or 4. 2, which on our scale of 1 to 5 10 is a fairly respectable average number. R 11 However, that's also a question -- R 12 excuse me. It was 3.8. I'm just looking at my sheet 13 here. A standard deviation on that was .9. So that 14 says that within two-thirds of all the answers are 15 captured somewhere between 2.9 and 4.7. And there , 16 could be some later. 17 I think what you're referring to when I 18 you look at the textural responses to other questions-- E f 19 MR. DELCORE: Correct, ir 20 MR. BECK: -- where people expressed O
.- 21 some pretty severe dissatisfaction with what was going i 22 on in their-particular set of g circumstances today are
[ 23 indicative of some of the pockets that' exist at the 24 plant where things are not as good as the averages O~' POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
l 20 1 HEARING:RE: MILLSTONE UNITS hl- AUGUST 12, 1997-. 1 'would indicate.- h 2 You might recall,_also,:that-on the 22nd 3 we really- cautioned management' not. to- take -the 4 averages, which looked pretty good by themselves, as 5 _the gospel because, clearly, there ' are so ne issues that 6 need to be dealt with today. 7 So you got the whole story. As far as 8 middle management is ccncerned, it's not an uncommon 9 phenomenon anywhere that -people tend to be more 10 familiar with and, if conditions are reasonably decent, R- 11 as- it seems to be at Millstone today, as far as R 12 people's relationship with their supervisor and the 13 leader at.the top, the guys in the middle tend to be a 14 little bit on the gray side and that they don't get as 15 high a rating _almost anywhere. So I don't think.that's 16 unusual.
'17 Now, is -there lurking out =there 18 somewhere in that middle management structure some 19 problems that need to be dealt with? Probably.
20 Probably are,
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<-: 21 John, do you want-to --
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- { 22 MR. JOHN GRIFFIN: No. I think that's
.l: 2'3 it.
24 MR. BECK: Billie? i POST REPORTING SERVICE (800) 262-4102 HAMDEN, CT
E F__ 21-HEARING RE: MILLSTONELUNITS: AUGUST 12, 1997 1 MS.' GARDE: Nothing. 2 MR. BECK: Okay. 3 MR. DELCORE : Well, Il recognize- what 4 -you're saying, John._ But when I -- when -I sit in-the 5 July 22_ meeting and~- I see Bruce Kenyon run ~ off saying-6 that there was this-marked improvement and then I look-h 7 ~ at your slides- -- and I do see a-general trend in the 1 8 right direction. But it certainly is far from a marked 9 improvement, especially when you begin to parlay into 10 that mixture what wasL found in the. Employees Concern R -11 Program. g 12 When people have a_50/50 chance of'being 13 harassed or-intimidated coming forward with a concern, 14 you _can't tell :me that the work. environment is
~15 _ satisfactory or I can't'_believe-that somebody is-going.
-16 -- in Northeast Utilities is going to'take -
credit thac- j
'17 -that's-a good atmosphere. =
- 18 But-that's -what.seems to have come out ;
._ 19 of this.
20 MR. BECK: I didn't mean to cut you off.
- Of
., _21 -I think you're absolutely. right, that-there are.some
- l{. 22 issues that. management-has to deal-.:with at Millstone.
.I 2'3 'And we 'said that and we believe that.
And we're going
-24 to be watching to see- what they do .with those issues POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN,-CT (800).262-4102
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- -AUGUST 12, 1997 1 that are there. _There's no question about that, 7
t 2 To the- extent that you perceive a 3 difference in the averages' that came_out of all the 4 structured interviews compared with a sub-set, if I can 5 refer to it as'that, of the interviews that -- where ; 6 people definitely have problems and compare'that with, i- 7 for example,-the-ECP_ program usage issue, which, by the
-8 way,.is not inconsistent necessarily with what we.found 9 in looking at a much broader picture. In fact, the i 110 comments that.we got back -- and I'm sure you've read 4 l' 11 them in the detailed verbal responses. You read a lot
- g 12 of stuff about not -- why people would not.use the ECP
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13 program. That probably came - from' those who we i 14 ' interviewed who hhd used it and wouldn't again. Some 15 of those- are bound to have been duplicative just by 16 virtue of the :facc that we-had a broad -spectrum of 17 people we= talked-to. So it wasn't inconsistent. .But 18 in the bigger picture, -people did feel more comfortable n 19 about using it.
.g1 i r 20 MR. DELCORE: Okay. A similar question.
- o.
.. 21 It seems-that if there were people.who had -- well, tne-E l _.
_g 22 indication you gave was that a lot of people had a lot s, ,[ 123 -of comfort with their first-line supervisor. Yet, we J 24 see that steep increase in the use of the ECP and in O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 a
23 HEARING RE: MILLSTCNE UNITS
.I w)- AUGUST 12, 1997 1 the case where Mr. Quinn talked today he indicated some 2 people actually even came to his panel who would not 3 choose to use the ECP or not choose to use their first-4 14.ne supervisor.
5 And so I think somehow that begs an 6 answer again about that same issue. 7 MS. GARDE: So wl.at's the question? l 8 MR. DELCORE: Way is there a difference? 9 Why are people continuing to go to the ECP if their 10 association with the first-line supervisor, as their R- 11 study involved said it was so good? .R
/~^ 12 MS. GARDE: Well, I think, fi.rst of all,
' (._) :
13 within -- within the structured interview results as 14 they presented, there is clear indication that there 15 are areas where there are problems. We've been 16 referring to that as pockets of issues. 17 And that actually dovetails with what we
! 18 found when we did the ECP review in that many of the 1 19 same areas where the pockets of problems were, which I
!t 20 assume match up with the comments in the handout in O
. 21 terms of what actually people said, match up with the
;g 22 people that are using the ECP program. In that way I l 23 think really they complement one another.
24 Now, you can look at those ECP POST REE'RTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
' 24-
- < HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS-
-AUGUST 12,; 1997 1 statisticsJin terms-of retaliation issues really two
'2 different ways..- For example, although it's not good; 3 that there are these pockets where -these issues. o f --
4 -retaliation are occurring, it is _ good.that they are-5 ;being- raised, that :they tre. being raised somewhere, 16 either within the ECP or to the ECP panel which is-7 supposedi to be a kind of check-and-balance on the.-ECP 8 and/or to Little Harbor' and/or to the NRC. You would 9 want those retaliation issues to'be raised. l 10 So there's some confidence that at some
)- -11 level someone is going to respond to retaliation. And 12 I think, really, that's kind of where'we. are now.
13 There has been a surge of people who have come forward 14 to use the ECP. As programs recover, I have found'that 15 that's normal. You actually will have an increase --
-16 when a program starts,-you know -- within a work force, 17 when- they lose faith with a program, whether it's I l 18 Quality Assurance Program or Employee Concerns Program, .{
}- --
- 19 concerns will go down. Then you get'- a new program and
'p-t 20 the workers test it. And so concerns go up. And we're 'O[
21 on that-upside curve.
.l, g- 22 Now,-'if the ECP is not able to. rise to l- 23 that challenge, they'll go down'.at the ECP and up at 24 the NRC. If they do rise to the challenge and deal POST RSPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 1
.. , . .o
25 f- HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS ( ). AUGUST 12, 1997 1 with it and workers feel comfortable going there, you 2 will see the concerns rise for a little while and then 3 line management will start to get it or -- and then, as 4 John said, they'll either change their behaviors or 5 change their managers and it will go down. 6 So I don't think we've seen anything I 7 wouldn't expect to see in a recovering program. But 8 it's too soon to say whether it's recovered. 9 MR. DELCORE: Well, like I said, what's i 10 bothering me is the perception that Northeast Utilities E 11 was presenting not only to the Chairman the other day
- K r^s 12 but also to the public at the 22nd meeting, that, you b
13 know, we still have some problems with the system. 14 I mean in general it appears to me that 15 there's some major problems with the system, not only 16 from the ECP end of it, but also with some pretty 17 significant pockets. I 18 Now, you know, I know a lot of people at 5 f 19 Millstone and a lot of people have told me a lot of Ir 20 things. And we can talk about these anecdotal things O
. 21 for a long time and it's not going to solve anything.
g 22 But what it's done for me is it's told ma, me -- I I 23 think I know where the problems are. I think I know 24 what departments the problems are. So if I know them POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
-26.
=
HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
;[ f; AUGUST-12,_1997 1 'and -you guys! didLthe- survey, then certainly NU must 2 know them. 'The question is-why hasn't something been 3 _done already,-if we've had this 53 percent issue and-4 it's -- Tfcm did_-your survey- in June. You looked at the l 5 ECP stuf' _ chat's occurred since January. Why haven't L 6 the NRC required them to take the steps.or why haven't 7 they taken the steps? ,.
8 MS. GARDE: Well, Don, I think that's' 9 really a valid observation. And as we said, we are now 10 going to focus cn 100 percent of the issues where
-g- 11 retaliation has been raised and we're going to scrub g
LA 12 those issues to get tofthe answer to those questions.
% ).
13 And I would hope _that _the. answers to those questions 14 will lead to even more identification .of why those 15 things haven't been--fixed and get them fixed. 16 But I do think that it's fair to-17 acknowledge that- the~ efforts- that have been taken scr l- 18 far have.been effective in empowering managers who-are
-] - 19 -generally good managers and good. people to do the right
;l r 20 thing. Jmd, ' theref ore, they have had -- they have been o:
< 21 .given the ability to do that. And that's working-in a k_
y 22- ' lot 'of areas. Where there are managers who aren't
-l 23 doing the rightithing, people. are identifying that.
24 They're pointing those fingers now.- And it's not going C /~% .
~
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 '
27 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS -( f-) AUGUST 12, 1997 1 to be very easy very much longer to hide behind either, 2 you know, past immunity or present confusion because 3 that all is coming out. 4 MR. DELCORE: All right. Now, let me 5 give you another take. There's been a major issue -- 6 and I don't want to take a lot of time here, but I have 7 some, I think, what are really important ECP issues 8 that you need to understand. 9 I looked at -- in fact, I was asked, 10 when I was on Susan Luxton's Nuclear Safety Issues g 11 Program, by a caller how I felt about the discipline n 12 that NU took against the 22 people. And my response 13 was that I thought that that was a fair thing to do. 14 Now, I don't know what the circumstances 15 for each one of those individuals was and whether what 16 Northeast Utilities handed out to each one of those 17 individuals was fair or whether those individuals had !e 18 raised prior issues and there was retaliation. But I f 19 think it's within the purview of Northeast Utilities to ir 20 take a disciplinary action when it feels like it, o
. 21 But there was such an uproar from I
g 22 employees calling you people, calling the NRC and
!L 23 calling other people and talking to them that I have a 24 sense that I really believe what the work force is O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 s .
f 28 _fg HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
'x,j AUGUST 12, 1997 1 trying to tell Bruce Kenyon.
-2 And from my perspective -- and I'm not 3 trying to raise issues dealing with Don Delcore and 4 rehash them. But I know that Brucia Kenyon attended a 5 lecture where he gave a presentation to a department 6 and in that department an individual asked him, "Mr.
7 Kenyon, what are we going to do with these detractors l 8 like Don Delcore and Susan Luxton and the New London 9 Day?" And his response was he attacked me and said, 10 you know, "Delcore wrote a -- a scathing, almost nasty. l. j{ 11 letter to Shirley Jackson." And that things like.that 12 weren't fatal. But they were giving him problems and {~} 13 it was going to create problems for him and it was 14 going to take him longer to overcome. And I'm not 15 trying to paraphrase him -- I am trying to paraphrase 16 him. I'm not -- you know, the words maybe that I'm 17 using are not exact. S 18 And I believe in that instance what he k
? 19 really should have said was "Delcore wrote a letter -g.
r 20 about two inspection reports and in those inspection O
< 21 reports there were tons of bad things that he felt that 8
g 22 the regulatory people weren't.taking appropriate action b 23 because all of this is going on for so many years and 24 nothing was going on. And so he appropriately did what
)
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
29 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS (~_~) AUGUST 12, 1997 1 he had to do. And Susan Luxton asked questions here 2 for the public and she did appropriately what she had 3 to do. And that they did appropriately what they had 4 to do. And what our responsibility as employees should 5 be is to clean-up our act and get that garbage out of 6 the inspection reports so that they can't write about 7 that." 8 Bat he didn't do that. He made us the 9' bad guys. Okay? 10 (Applause) R 11 MR. DELCORE: Let me finish. He also -- A 12 he also then shortly thereafter -- and he didn't come
)
13 forward and apologize or do anything about that. Okay? 14 And he was aware of it. 15 Then the next issue that came to the 16 forefront was I was there in an ECP meeting and asked a 17 bunch of very tough questions and upset Mr. Carnes, who I 18 was brand new. And Mr. Carnes went in the next day and I 19 asked some pretty pertinent questions regarding my f 20 son'u involvement in my attitude. Okay? And again O-
. 21 nothing was really done. Nothing was really done with l
g 22 Mr. Carnes. And I'm not trying to belabor this. .l 23 The next issue that came up was I 24 believe Mike Brothers got involved in a chilling event. O POST REPORTING SEDVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 2e2-4102
~
1 30 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () i AUGUST 12, 1997 , 1 Okay? And he may have got a letter of reprimand that I , 2 think he talked about here one night in his file. 3 Okay? But the guy made Vice President. Okay? 4 So what the people in Millstone saw was 5 a real big double standard, a double standard to the , i 6 point that when Carnes came up and talked about it at a 7 - teeting, Kenyon had to deal with the double-standard 8 questions that came at him from that group of people. 9 All right? 10 So what I think you're seeing as an 11 uproar from these people is they've seen a double , 12 standard until it got to these people in training and {) 13 all of a sudden they seen the whip thrown on all these 14 people in training and they didn't see it get. done to 15 Carnes and they didn't see it get done to Brothers and 16 they didn't see it get done to the man himself. 17 What they should have done was suspend 18 Carnes for two weeks or take away two weeks of his pay. 19 And they should have done the same thing to Mike
~20 Brothers.
O
= 21 A VOICE: Hear, hear.
I g 22 MR. DELCORE: Then what happened would l 23 not have happened, I don't believe. Now that's my take 24 on that. And I really think you guys ought to look at 1 O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
31 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS h -AUGitST 12, 1997 1 that and try to deal with that. Understand. 2 So that's a very major issue. And it ! 3 needs to be dealt with. And that's part of the reason 4 for what's going on at the top up here. Double ! 5 standards aren't making it'. He's a guy that said he 6 was going to come in and he was going to nail down some 7 accountability and we weren't going to deal with.before 8 Kenyon. :We were going to deal with after Kenyon. And 9 that hasn't happened. Understand. 10 Let me see if I've got any other
'E 11 questions and I'll get out of your hair, Wayne.
12 An important point is that the 13 environment in a work group really -- there was no real 14 determination, I don't believe, about the environment 15 in a work group that you two guys determined. I think 16 you left a lot of stuff out, a lot of things that 17 needed to get presented. You presented a picture that i I 18 basically told people. things were getting better. But 19 I don't.think you expounded enough on the things that i-r 20 are bad and the things that aren't right. And it was
.O < 21 in very stark contrast to Billie Garde's presentation.
I g 22 And for whatever reason you did it, I don't know.
$ 23 And I don't think those two questions 24 dictate a positive trend in that environment. I think POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i
32 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O AUGUST 12,1997 1 that the other . things dictate just as much negative 2 trends in that environment. And so I don't think that 3 that was a fair assessment. 4 MR. BECK: Toward that end, I think 5 you're aware, Don, that we're. going to do another l' 6 structured- interview between now and the time the. 7 scheduled Commission vote takes place, .w henever that-8 is . - It's- scheduldd in- December now. And- we would-9 appreciate any suggestions you might offer- as to 10 specific questions that- you think -should be added 11 perhaps at a later date in the next round. l In order to 12 make it a valid comparison, we're going to ask all' the
'{
13 same questions we did. But if there are others you 14 think that are. pertinent to. bring out the 15 characteristics of the safety-conscious work 16 environment, we would appreciate the input very much. 17 I'd also like to emphasize that these 5 18 structured- interviews are not- John / John's work. I 19 They're the work of the entire team. 20 MR. DELCORE: I know that.
'O-
< 21 MR. BECK: Billie worked with 'us I
g- 22 intimately, closely, in developing all the questions. b 23 We were very, very assiduous in getting the input of 24 all .of our team members in that regard. And
- (- -
" ~~
. POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 ,
4
\:.-.- . . - . ,.
33 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS (). AUGUST 12, 1997 i l 1 essentially, in fact, all the team members did some of 2 the interviews. So it was a Little Harbor work effort 3 across the board. And the ECP review also involved all 4 of the team members who had something to offer in the 5 way of the critiques that we do internally. Before we 6 come- forth with public statements, we want to be 7 certain that the team as a whole agrees with it. And 8 we have a consensus requirement, if you will, that 9 we're not going to say anything to you or management or 10 the NRC representative of our team's effort unless it's 11 a consensus view. 0 12 So we work very hard at getting to a
- 13 consensus. And if we don't, we have a provision that <
14 allows, in fact requires, a person who cannot agree 15 with the consensus for one reason or another to come 16 forth and lay out the reasons for it And we're going
- 17 to bring that to the table as well.
I 18 So I just wanted to make it clear that I 19 all of this is a team effort. It just so happens that 20 John and I might have done the pres-- we could have O
.. 21 easily reversed it and done it the other way.
g 22 MR. DELCORE: Well, there was no -- l 23 there was no reason -- or I made no attempt to attack 24 your credibility or integrity or John's. So that's not ,
, I
. (w)~'
POST REPORTING SERVICE ~ HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 1
34 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () AUGUST 12, 1997 1 my intent. 2 MR. BECK: No. I didn't hear it that 3 way. 4 MR. DELCORE: Now, I have one other 5 question. And I'd like to ask it of the NRC. I would 6 like you guys individually to give me your assessment 7 of where you think the Employee Concerns Program at 8 Millstone, including the work environment -- where you 9 think it is right now and what you're going to use as a 10 metric or a measurement to make a determination as to 11 when it's good. Thank you, t 12 MR. McKEE: Well, I'll attempt to answer [} 13 the latter part of that question first about metrics. 14 As we've discussed in meetings before, this is a -- 15 these human issues are the difficult area to establish 16 metrics and specific measures. But, so we're 17 considering and looking at using a number of factors I 18 and one looking at the Employee Concerns Program area.
; 19 There has been data collected and 20 presented by the licensee that we're looking at the o - 21 numbers of concerns that are coming-forward with the g 2 2 '- Employee Concerns Program, their characterization, b 23 timeliness for resolution and trends in those factors.
24 We're also looking at measures that will O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
_ . . _ . ~ _ _ _ _ _ . _ _ _ . _ _ . . . _ _ _ _ . _ _ _ . _ _ . _ . - . - _ _ . _ . _ . . _ i
)
1 35 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS . . ( )- , _ AUGUST 12, 1997 t .- 1 -- or a number' of NRC- allegations. As part of-2 measures, there's a number of the Little Harbor i 3 findings in their implementation of: the Employee I 4 Concerns Program. And as far as the licensee's 5 response in handling and dealing with those issues and 6 how the Employee Concerns Program deals with that, 7 that's a factor and a measure that we're going to be j 8 looking at as far as-the program. I 9 As well as- 'looking at the specific 10 Employee Concerns Program area, as we mentioned, the-g 11 safety-conscious work environment is a lot broader than 12 that and it's out in the interviews done and some of
)
13 the surveys done by the licensee.- We have that 14 information available to evaluate and assess and see i 15 the basis for. We certainly are gaing to 'use that-16 information. That is a big purpose that 'Little-Harbor 17 by-order is involved in this as a third party to-gather
-l- _
18 some of that. g 19 So we'll- use that information but also e 20 look at some of our measures as we look into and do our
-o
.- 21 own inspection activities on timeliness of corrective 22 actions and their Corrective Action Programs, how those
{J
$ 23 issues are- resolved, looking at Quality Assurance
-24 Program activities and how issues and audit findings POST REPORTING SERVICE-HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
.=
36 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () AUGUST 12, 1997 1 are taken and resolved. That's a metric and an issue 2 that we can look at and evaluate. 3 Also, assessments by the off-site review 4 committee, information there on how issues are taken 5 and resolved, and other measures in some of the other ! 6 programs in human relations. So there is data and 7 information that we're looking at and how we'll collect 8 and monitor that to give us information in conjunction 9 with the findings and conclusions that Little Harbor s 10 will have for us at the Special Projects Office to make g 11 our recommendation when the time comes before the (~ 12 Commission. 13 As far as the comment on status of how 14 we feel on the status of the Employee Concerns Program, ' 15 now I think -- well, it's premature. We're in a 16 position now of monitoring that. That decision, we 17 can't make that decision now. I stand by and we see 18 nothing to -- that would dispute the findings that
- 19 Little Harbor has found in the Employee -- in their 20 assessment of the Employee Concerns Program area. I
-O . 21 think those are good findings. That's really what we I
g 22 intended by their activities. And I -- those are l 23 valuable. We're going to do some assessments ourselves 24 to confirm, verify and provide another layer of O'~# POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 _ _ _ _ - - _ - - - - 1
l 37 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O ^uousr 12 1997 1 evaluation in that area. And there is much more to be 2 done by Little Harbor and by us to assess some of the 3 other programmatic activities. So I think it's -- it*c 4 -- I can't make a black-and-white decision or -- 5 MR. DELCORE: All right. A follow-up. 6 Today I.got the sense that many concerns were closed, 7 but they were a hell of a long way from being resolved. _8 __And I'd like your appraisal also of that, about how-you 9 feel about that, i 10 It seems to me that we should endeavor R 11 to close them immediately, if we can do it, because 12 that's going to generate the atmosphere that people are 13 going _to believe in. 14 MR. McKEE: Actually, using their 15 terminology, it's the other way around. They're -- 16 MR. DELCORE: Well, whatever. 17 MR. McKEE: Yes. Their terminology is I 18 actually resolved means that the concern has been
- 19 addressed and there's a plan to come to closure on the 20 concern. The concern itself, depending on the nature,
'O . 21 might not be finally closed for a period after that.
I. g_ 22 And you're-right. That's one reason we
- l. 23 asked that question in there. I think you have to look 24 at both those statistics in a certain way to assess a POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
38 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O ^uoUsT 12 1997 1 program and the program effectiveness. 2 MR. LANNING: This lady right over here 3 had her hand up. Yes? Please sign in. 4 MS. DIANE SCULLY: You stated -- 1 5 MR. LANNING: Turn the button on. Red 6 button.
- 7 MS. SCULLY
- Red button?
8 MR. LANNING: Yes. You should get a red 9 light on. I- 10 MS. SCULLY: Hi. You stated that 37 g 11 percent of the people that you interviewed felt that
-A 12 they would not go back to the ECP program because they V
13 felt that the ECP had no power in resolving issues? 14 MS. GARDE: Correct. l 15 MS. SCULLY: Okay. Is ECP -- is that -- 16 do you want to clarify that? 17 MR. BECK: Yes. I 18 MS, GARDE: What was the question? I 19 MR. BECK: The 37 percent 20 MS, GARDE: The 37 percent -- the 37-O
. .. 21 percent statistic comes from 37 percent of those we did g- 22 follow-up with that had used the ECP program. So -- I l 23 might be a little bit off on my numbers. But there was 24 basically 93 files and of those 93 files, there were POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
39 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS ( AUGUST 12, 1997 1 some that were anonymous. But I believe there were 27 2 people that -- is that right? -- 27 people that we 3 contacted who had been users of the program. And of 4 those 27 individuals, 37 percent, a little over a 5 third, would not go back. So it's -- numerically 6 speaking, it's a relatively low number. But it's still 7 a fairly high statistic in the context of that small 8 number. 9 MR. BECK: And clarify that that was not 10 part of the structured interview -- H 11 MS. GARDE: Yes. Oh. And that 37 A 12 percent does not come from the structured interviews. 13 They talked with 200-some people. Me only talked to 14 the people who had used the program. Does that -- do 15 you understand what I'm saying? 16 MS. SCULLY: As opposed -- 17 MS. GARDE: No? 18 MS. SCULLY: No, not really. 19 MS. GARDE: The work that.was done by 20 the Little Harbor Consultants into the Employee o
. 21 Concerns Program looked at all the files. So we looked g 22 at basically 90-some people. I should get my numbers, l 23 92 files or 93 files. 37 percent -- Don, do you have 24' that slide on that? It's Slide No. 10 from our July 22 (h ,
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
)
- 4. 0 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
( AUGUST 12, 1997 1 presentation. 2 MS. SCULLY: Did you actually see these 3 files and what these concerns were? 4 MS. GARDE: Yes. We spent weeks and S weeks reviewing each of the files. We did 100 percent 6 review of all of the files. 7 MS. SCULLY: Did you see what kind of 8 concerns there were? 9 MS. GARDE: Yes. 10 MS. SCULLY: I mean how safety-2 11 significant they were? 'A 12 MS. GARDE: Yes. U 13 MS. SCULLY: Were there concerns about 14 our environment, about our health and safety in these 15 files? 16 MS. GARDE: There were a relatively 17 small number of nuclear safety concerns or health and I 18 safety concerns from an overa?.1 perspective. For 19 example, of the -- oh.ay . This is the slide that we 20 presented at the 22nd meeting that explains the 37 0 = 21 percent. I g 22 MS. SCULLY: Their concerns were passed h 23 on to other agencies or to other -- to -- it wasn't 24 directly dealt with and resolved? Is that what the O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
41 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O ^uoust 12, 1997 1 concern was -- 2 MS. GARDE: Right. 3 MS. SCULLY: -- over these issues? Did 4 you agree with that? l '5 MS. GARDE: You need to turn yours off. 6 MS. SCULLY: Did you agree with that, with that concern? I 8 MS. GARDE: Did we agree-with whether or 9 not the concern hadn't been adequately addressed? I
-10 can't tell you whether or not for each of those 10
-11 people we agreed with them. I can tell you that we 12 agreed with enough concerns filed being inadequately 13 resolved or not~ --
there wasn't substantial 14 documentation in the file, that we made a j 15 recommendation that those files be reopened and're-16 looked at. If I had to guess, I would guess that'it 17 includes all of those people. But I'm not positive of I 18 that. 19 MS. SCULLY: Thank you. 20 MR. LANNING: Rosemary? Please sign in. O
= 21 MS. ROSEMARY BASSILAKIS: I-will.
I { 22 Good evening. My name is Rosemary
-l 23 Bassilakis. I'm with the Citizens Awareness Network.
24 I live in Haddam. I live one mile from the Connecticut O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
42 7\ HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS y ) AUGUST 12, 1997 1 Yankee nuclear reactor which is now shut down. And I 2 just -- as I was thinking about introducing myself, I 3 just wanted to take note that about a year and a half 4 ago when we were first asking questions about 5 Connecticut Yankee, a handful of these gentlamen on our 6 right pressed upon us that the conditions at 7 Connecticut Yankee were no different than Millstone and 8 that -- I mean they -- that they were quite different l 9 and that, in fact, it was much safer over there. And 10 light shined upon the issue and Connecticut Yankee is g 11 now shut down permanently. And it has been und that, gg 12 in fact, Connecticut Yankee was equally as pocrly 13 managed as the Millstone reactors. And I just felt 14 compelled to say that tonight. And I know this is sort 15 of out of order. This is a Millstone meeting. But I 16 remember that. And now we're dealing with 17 decommissioning at that reactor, which is not on the I 18 watch list, which should be, by the way. I
- 19 Okay. I'll try to make sense out of lr 20 these notes I have. I appreciate this opportunity to o
21 be able to directly ask you questions. Although, as g 22 Susan had requested previously, it would have been nice k 23 if this meeting you gave to Northeast Utilities and the 24 NRC would have been held in the evening where we could g k POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
43 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS (gj AUGUST 12, 1997 1 have been present. A lot of us work rull-time and were 2 unable to attend that meeting. And I know Mr. Travers 3 mentioned to the NRC last weck that they go to great 4 extents to accommodate the public. But you didn't 5 mention that there was a suggestion by a member of the 6 'olic to hold the meeting at a time where the public 7 could be present. 8 But, at any rate -- and I'm also glad 9 that there's a short agenda, which means maybe we could 10 take a little more time to ask questions tonight. 11 Lack of documentation is one of the { 12 issues you raise with the Employee Concerns Program.
/)
13 It rings a bell in my head when a year and a half ago, 14 when all this began to hit the fan, what we' learned was 15 that Millstone didn't update their Final Safety 16 Analysis Reports. And for those who don't know, those 17 Final Safety Analysis Reports are the very documents 18 that run the reactor. They're the blueprints. They , i 19 are sort of like essential documents and the workers !r 20 really need those in order to safely operate a nuclear O a 21 reactor. So we see there that there was poor g 22 documentation. $ 23 In worker training issues, again there 24 was the issue of bad documents. I mean they didn't O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
r 44 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS h AUGUST 12, 1997 1 even ~ keep good attendance. records of when workers 2 attended class and when workers were absent, whether or 3 not they made up their work hours, things like that as 4 far as class attendance goes. 5 ( And here we are a year and a half later 6 with the Employee Concerns Program- and we're finding 7 .out- that documentation again is lacking. And IIwould 8 just like to point out that I feel this is a very 9 deeply-rooted cultural issue that obviously is taking 10 quite a bit of time to change. And I get the sense j 11 that by not keeping good documents, there's a certain 12 wing-it attitude. 13 As a scientist, I know that if you don't 14 keep good records, there's no . way in heck you can 15 reproduce things. And by not keeping good documents 16 here and in numerous cases -- and I just mentioned 17 three and I'm sure there's many others. This is very I 18 significant. And I think we should open our eyes quite
- 19 wide to this issue.
1
-r 20 To give the NRC a little bit of credit,
> O 21 I appreciate the. Home Page that you guys have. And I
)l 22 go there daily and look at events and reports and
{ b '23 transcripts and things of that nature. 24 .And the other day while I was at the POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN. CT (800) 262-4102
45 g-) HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS (j AUGUST 12, 1997 1 Home Page, I found a memo written by John Hannon. And 2 John Hannen, for those who don't know, was an NRC 3 employee, or maybe still is -- I'm not sure about that. 4 A VOICE: He still s. 5 MS. BAf3ILAKIS: Who did extensive work 6 in the area of. Employee Concerns. And he wrote a 7 report that was well-read and well-credited, I should l 8 say, l
.9 Now, this memo that I came across on the 10 NRC Home Page was a memo written by John Hannon tv R 11 William T. Russell, who is the Director of the Office R
12 of Nuclear Reactor Regulation. Now, this memo, what it
-{ }
13 was about was recommendations to the NRC on how to deal 14 with this whole issue of a chilling atmosphere and the 15 inability of workers to raise safety concerns. So his 16 memo was advising the NRC on how best to deal with 17 these issues.
! 18 And what just hit me like a brick was --
I 19 if people go to that 3.
- page, they can look under No.
Ir 20 And what he states is that "You should avoid the usual O
. 21 employee concern-type survey vehicles. Experience has I
g 22 demonstrated that employees will not meaningfully l 23 respond to direct types of questioning. More 24 sophisticated methods appear to be needed to accurately
.O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
46 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS (-) AUGUST 12, 1997 1 measure the workplace environment." 2 I saw that and all I could -- I hear 3 static. Wait a minute. 4 MR. LANNING: John, is your mike off? 5 MR. BECK: Yes, it's off. 6 MR. LANNING: Go ahead. 7 MS. BASSILAKIS: I saw that and it Just 8 rang a bell in my head because I remember at tha -- 9 after the Little Harbor presentation that I couldn't 10 attend because I was working, you could all but hear 11 champagne bottles popping. And the issue of 100 {- (} 12 percent of the workt-rs being able to raise safety 13 issues, I mean that's a very hard-to-believe number, 14 And the fact that John Hannon in his memo to the NRC 15 stated that surveys of that type should not be used to 16 evaluate the progress in these issues is very 17 significant to me. I 18 And he went on to say in his memo that I 19 " Absent more effective survey vehicles", more effective lr 20 than surveys, "NRC inspections should not document O
- 21 findings of no apparent chilling effect at c y licensed 8
[ 22 facility with pending discrimination claims." b 23 Now, NU clearly fits that bill. So I 24 guess -- I guess you can comment on that. I wasn't O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
47-HEARING RE: MILLSTONE. UNITS-O AuouST 12, 19,2 1 asking a question. But you can certainly comment. 2 MR. BECK: Well, I have to give you a 3 little comment when you -talk about surveys because our 4 structured interviews are not- a survey, if that's what 5 you meant. The structured interviews? We struggled -- l 6 let me share some of what we went through to get to the l- -7 point of using the. vehicle we did u=e to try to get a-8 picture of how the employee, how the work force feels 9 about a sat'ety-conscious work environment at Millstone 10 today. P- 11 There are a number of things you can do 12 from surveys where you write out a lot.of questions and 13 -- there's nothing wrong with surveys. But .our 14 collective experience tells us that you can't get the 15 whole story by asking a standard bunch of questions and-16 just getting a-straight answer. Plus, participation is 17 always a question. How do you encourage getting the I I. 18 participation that will give you a representative h 19 sample, for example? ! You're never going to get 100 -{ 20 percent. So you're always going to get a fraction. O
= 21 How do you know what that fraction is ahead of time? .l'
{ 22 Is it going to be reliable? Can you use it again? So b 23 there are a lot of unsatisfactory aspects to using a P4 ' survey instrument by itself. O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 r
48 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () AUGUST 12, 1997 i Structured interviews are a different 2 ball game. And many of us have been involved in 3 circumste.ncos in the past where we did use structured 4 interviews wh2re you sit down in private one-to-one. 5 You can 0:eu body language. You car anticipate 6 discomfort as questiona are asked and follow up perhaps 7 with a little purruit. People can volunteer things. 8 And, in fact, a lot of the comments that you got that 9 we handed out on the 22nd, many of them came 10 unsolicited, tuings that people volunteered because. 2 11 they thought it was an important attribute related to (~) 11 2 questions that we did ask. LJ 13 So our bottom-line experience is that 14 that's the best way to find out what people really 15 think, is to sit down one-on-one and ask them 16 structured questions and listen to what they have to 17 say and particularly their follow-up input. j l 18 MS. GARDE: One other comment, Rosemary. 19 The 100-percent statistic, that is 100 percent of the 20 people that we asked whether or not, if they had a O
< 21 nuclear safety-related concern, whether or not they l
g 22 would raise that, has been somewhat misinterpreted. l 23 The answer to that question does not 24 mean "Yes, I would go to my supervisor and tell him a D
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POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
49 s HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
,) AUGUST 12, 1997 1 safety concern and I have no fear of reprisals." It <
2 does not include that. Remember, a sub-set of the 3 people that we talked to did report a chilling effect 4 within their work environment. 5 What they said was -- 100 percent of the 6 people we said said they would raise a nuclear safety 7 concern somewhere, maybe anonymously, maybe to the NRC, 8 maybe to an Employee Concerns Program, but if they knew I 9 about it, they would not let it go unaddressed. And 10 that's a very important piece of information to know 4 { 11 because if even a handful said "No. No way, Jose, am I 12 going to raise a concern", we know (]} needed to that 13 information. 14 I don't think it should be 15 misinterpreted to say that that statistic means 16 everything is wonderful. Thac statistic goes to the 17 safety ethic of the people who work out there.
! 18 MS. BASSILAKIS: Thank you for that !: 19 clarification.
20 MS. GARDE: Okay. O 21 MR. GRIFFIN: And just a short follow-up b l 22 on that, also. Our discussion of that did not 23 represent that 100 percent of the work force felt free. 24 It was 100 percent of the people that we, in fact, O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
50 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
'( ) AUGUST 12, 1997 ^
1 interviewed. But that is important because some of 2 those same people that we interviewed in this time who 3 said now they would raise concerns indicated that a 4 year ago they would not raise safety concerns anywhere. 5 So there was a definite change in that area, also. 6 MS. BASSILAKIS: Well, I'm certainly 7 glad that the flag appears to be blowing in the right ( l 8 direction, living in Connecticut. 9 One thing that I put together in my mind 10 and maybe yott can comment on -- if we do take some g 11 value -- wait a minute. Let me clarify. When you said l (3 us! 12 that 37 percent of the people -- okay. 37 percent of the people who wouldn't use the program 13 again who did 14 use the program, that's not a survey. That's through 15 interviews. Now -- 16 MR. BECK: No. 17 MS. BASSILAKIS: That's not -- I 18 MS. GARDE: That's on the ECP piece.
- 19 MS. BASSILAKIS: Right. Okay. The h
r 20 Employee Concerns Program. O
= 21 MS. GARDE: Right, b
g 22 MS. BASSILAKIS: Now, if you couple that l 23 with the eight percent that would never use the 24 program, that is getting to be more close to 50 b
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g POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
i 51 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () AUGUST 12, 1997 1 percent. And I don't know if you could do that 2 mathematically, but I wondered that. If eight percent 3 wouldn't use the program and if 37 percent of the 4 people who did use the program wouldn't go back to the 5 program, then you're getting up to 43 percent. 6 MR. BECK: The numbers game is always 7 hard to play. That eight percent, it was indicative of 8 those that we talked to in the structured interviews, 9 totally separate from our ECP implementation review l 10 where the 10 out of 27 came from. They're totally 11 apples and oranges. They're not comparable. Only 12 insofar as they would represent dissatisfaction are (~)T 13 they comparable. But you can't add them or multiply 14 them or -- it just doesn't make sense. 15 The eight percent, by the way -- many of 16 the people who said they wouldn't use the ECP program 17j for some reason, some of the reasons were "I don't I 18 think I would ever have to because I have confidence in
- 1E my supervisor or management." Not all of them, but lr 20 some of them. Some of them said, "I wouldn't use it O
= 21 because I don't trust them." Some of them said, "Well, g_ 22 it's just like going to the line anyway. So, you know, l 23 why bother?" That kind of thing. And all those 24 answers, by the way, are in the stuff that we made O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 T
52 HEARING.RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O AUGUST 12, 1,,7 1 available in the way of textural- responses to the 2 questions. 3 MS. BASSILAKIS: Okay. A couple more 4 issues. Just a point, George Gladys was only one 5 employee who raised safety concerns which really was
- 6 -the catalyst.to a _ lot of what's- going on today. And 7 that was just one employee. So, you _know, _even with I 8 small numbers of people, we should look at that --
9 MS. GARDE: Absolutely. 10 MS. BASSILAKIS: -- seriously. 2 11 I would like your professional opinion,
-2 12 Little Harbor folks, whether or not you feel there 13 should be a- protocol for: dealing with reprimands-of 14 certain-violations, especially -- &nd what I would like 15 you to comment -- in the area of creating a chilling 16 effect. And I've heard -- and this is hearsay. I 17 didn't hear this firsthand. But I heard that Bruce $ 18 Kenyon has come forward in the past' stating that he
- l-
- - 19 doesn't want to go by a textbook kind of reprimand 20 system.- And my feeling is that if you don't have a 0
- 21 .certain protocol.and- if. you don't deal with things l -g 22 consistently, then you're allowed to use subjective l 23 decision-making. And I'm concerned about that. And 24 I'd like your professional opinion to comment on O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
53-HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
.J AUGUST 12, 1997 1 whether or not you think a certain protocol would be 2 helpful as far as preventing the chilling effect. I 3 mean if people knew what to expect --
4 MS. GARDE: First of all, you're asking i 5 for consulting advice. And we have to be careful about l= 6 that. But in the contex of the question -that you're l: [ 7 asking, when you're- determining whether .or not a 8 disciplinary action is being taken in retaliation for 9 engaging in protected' activity, you'rs evaluating 10 whether or not-that discipline has been meted Lout --
- p 11 meted out consistently- or according to some kind of 12 ' printed published policy.
13 A company is always more legally at risk 14 and.then, therefore, also at risk of the NRC's scrutiny 15 if it's an arbitrary decision; .that is, there's -- you
~ 16 know,.it's not like you can pick- up a~ textbook and.say 17 "First offense, you get five days. Second offense, you 18 get a week off.without_ pay. You know. Third offense
.f. II 19 is termination." That's easy. If somebody. does 20 something wrong, you can follow this checkmark list and 0 --
< 21 you'can defend yourself by saying, "This is what I've
} _22 always done. This.is the way I'm going to do it in l' 23 this case. It's fair.' because it's the way I always
~ 24 handle disciplinary issues."
O - POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 ' l
54 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS AUGUST 12. '997. 1 As soon as you deviate'from that kind of-2 consistent approach and go to something more arbitrary, l 3 you're at risk of it -being suspect. Does that mean l 4 it's always unfair? No. Does it mean it's always 5 . retaliatory? No. Does it mean.it's more difficult-to
' _6 prove that it's not? Absolutely. And if it's harder 7 to prove'that- it's not, then it also is more apt to j: 8 create a chilling effect by other onlookers to the 9 incident. So that somebody three shops _ over, by the 10 time it gets third-hand and fourth-hand and t'9 story
{ 11 12 changes, the story becomes "He- wrote an NCR and the
.( next day.he was laid off." And that puts you at. risk-13 because you're not looking at:what is the impression 14 created by the action being'taken.-
15 I hope that NU is looking at that issue 16 and that concern. And that's a. very insightful 17 observation that the company should take note of. Our 18 professional opinion on that I think will come'more
;? 19 .when we finish our retaliation review, we scrub that 20 within our. organization and we make the kind of 0-1 e 21 presentation' that we have'in the past on subjects. . - So l' -
g 22 I: hope that that answer is -- answers your question for I 23 now. But we_will have- more to say' on that after we 24 finish our work. POST REPORTING-SERVICE HAMDEN, CT- (800) 262-4102 4 ______m_ _ _ _ . _ _ _ _
55 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
'h AUGUST 17, 1997 1 MS. BASSILAKIS: I wasn't done.
- j. 2 MR. LANNING: One more.
3 MS. GARDE: Because there's a lot of 4 other people. 5 MS. BASSILAKIS: Okay. I just wanted to 1 l 6 mention for the members of the public who obviously 7 waren't at the Maryland meeting and also didn't read 8 the transcript of the Maryland- meeting last week 9 between the NRC and Northeast Utilities, as well as 10 having the- various oversight people there, that
- g. 11 Chairwoman Shirley Jackson was concerned with there not 12 being real solid dates as far as when Employee Concerns 13 Program issues and Corrective Action Program -issues 14 would be resolved. And I was very- glad to see her 15 putting such emphasis on these, quote, " softer issues."
16 They're much harder to deal with than the technical 17 issues.. However, they equally, you know, require, you 18 know, our utmost attention, y
; -19 And, obviously, it was this' harassing 20 and chilling effect that was probably substantially . .O . .. 21 responsible for the downfall of Millstone. So I would 1
g 22 just like to point out that the-Chairwoman did bring L. l 23 that up at the meeting and-I'm glad for that.
'24 Thank'you very much.
-POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i
)
1 56
~
HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS (_3j AUGUST 12, 1997 1 MR. LANNING: There was a nice lady who 2 said that she had to leave by 8:30 to pick up her 3 children. If she has a question, now is your 4 opportunity. Okay. I guess she doesn't have a 5 question. 6 A VOICE: Or she left. 7 MR. LANNING: You may be next. 8 MS. LOIS BAILEY: My name is Louis 9 Bailey. I'm with the Citizens Regulatory Commission. 10 I was just reading over earlier today what's commonly l E 11 known as the DPUC report. For the audience and to R (~} 12 remind those on the panel, it's the Focused Audit of ! x_/ l 13 the Connecticut Light & Power Company that was prepared 14 for the DPUC, Department of Public Utility Control. 15 MR. LANNING: This has to do with 16 Employee Concerns? 17 MS. BAILEY: It does. Yes, indeed. I 18 MR. LANNING: And Millstone. 19 MS. BAILEY: It does. Yes.
!r 20 MR. LANNING: Okay.
O
. 21 MS. BAILEY: If not, I wouldn't be here.
g 22 And it's prepared by R.C. Brown & Associates. This l 23 rc_3rt was released as late as December 31, 1996 and it 24 had to do with the entire spectrum of problems at O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 I
57 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS j (- ) AUGUST 12, 1997 .. 1 Millstone from technical problems to management. 2 I want to read a section that has to do 3 with management because, in fact, what we're talking 4 about now is your I'm sure vary thorough survey of how 5 responsive ECP is being and how willing really 6 employees are to speak. I think that's not really the 7 issue. And I don't mean to, you know, hurt your 8 feelings, but I see this as irrelevant as far as the
-9 safety at Millstone nuclear power stations is 10 concarned.
11 There's still, as late as December 1996, 12 there was a scathing condemnation of hcw management was 13 picking up data, dealing with recommend.itions from the 14 NRC, NRC not getting to problems, referring them back 15 again. Al Cizek is talked about, his petition. So 16 whether or not workers are willing to bring up concerns 17 is really not the issue. The issue is what management
! 18 and management structure does with this and how
- 19 effective it is.
20 Now, on Page 56, Paragraph 3 of this O
= 21 report, it says, "The team, meaning the DPUC team, I
g 22 found that self-assessments, quality assurance audits l 23 and third-party reviews were generally effective in 24 identifying issues and conditions adverse to quality. n POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
58 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
-AUGUST 12,-1997 1 -And identification relates to willingness to talk about 2 problems. However, line management's responses to 3 findings and recommendations from these processes.-were 4 often inadequate.- In. several cases, . planned actions 5 and response to audit findings were not- entered-into 6 the formal -tracking system or acted upon-for long 7 periods. In additien,-findings'from third-party audits-t 8 were not entered into 'the formal corrective' action
;9 tracking mechanisms. Consequently, management lacked
-10 the means to adequately monitor corrective-actions. in E. 'll response to these findings. As a result of these
- M 12 findings, the team concluded that station management 13 has not yet been successful in establishing; a 14 comprehensive action 9togram and has not provided 15 sufficient oversight to assure that the program is 16 being effectively implemented."
17 Let me bring up the example that Al I 18 Cizek brought up in his March 1996 petition which the t
. l- -
19 NRC has refused to hear and act-on. In that petition.
!r' 20 he's very specific in bringing up _
the technical
-O s- -21 failures or the failures of NRC management to get to -I g 22 testing valves for over 20 years, for example, that l -23 should have been tested every two years.
24 And one of the things I asked him just O ' POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i
. . . , . . . , . . . . . . - . . . . . i .
I
59-HEARING'RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
}( ). -- _
AUGUST 12, 1997 1 -last week-was didLthey get-to those low-pressure' steam-2 injection lip -- called heat exchanger scaling. That 3 . scaling occurs when things when (indiscernible) begins
-4 to build up on the. heat exchangers and this could have 5 some effect on how heat is removed from the system.
l 6 And it could affect reactor coolant availability in an 7 accident eventually, 8 Now, he gave this to ECP. After he gave 9 it to supervision, he gave it to ECP. And then he went-10 to NRC because they didn't do anything about it. ECP
-Rc 11 agreed there was .a problem. It went to NRC. NRC R
12 referred it back to I think Mr. Feigenbaum. It was {) 13 then -- Mr. Feigenbaum said "We'll refer it to whoever 14 has a need to know." And then finally.it got to good-15 Mr. Reardon, Gerry Reardon,;who decided to see if some 16 testing could be done and suggested that in July of 17 last year,. this after months and months, over six I 18 months of Mr. Cizek trying to get something_done. And
. 19 I just talked to Mr._Reardon just now -- the other day, e ! 20 and it still hasn't been gotten to.
O
< 21 So the.. issue is not whether or not -[-
g 22 theoretically on paper people are willing to bring up l 12 3 problems. The problem is that you've still got 24 ineffective management. You've still got a tendency on O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT- (800) 262-4102
60 HEARING-RE: MILLSTONE UNITS (,,) ss AUGUST 12, 1997 1 the part of the NRC to let things go. And you're still 2 got this hideous five out of 88 systems. And as long 3 as you're only going to check that many, does it really 4 matter -- excuse me -- whether employees are willing to 5 bring up problems or not? 6 Thank you very much. 7 (Applause) 8 MR. LANNING: Yes. Please. 9 MS. MARY KUHN: Mary Kuhn. I know your 10 intentions are really good. And I remember when Mr. 11 Griffin gave that -- 12 A VOICE: Someone's mike is still on. 13 MS. KUHN: Okay. I do feel that you 14 need to know, however, that your 100-percent results 15 were misinterpreted. I was surprised the next day to 16 hear on public radio that, you know, conditions had 17 improved so much at Millstone and 100 percent of the l 18 workers felt' comfortable. They used the word 1 19 " comfortable" instead of "willing." You know? But b 20 r that's an easy substitution to make. So I think that O . 21 in spite of the fact that at the time qualifications 0-j 22 were made, if you give handouts like this and like you l 23 gave tonight, you know, I think that it is going to be 24 misinterpreted. We don't know what those -- and, also,
,a POST REPORTING SBRVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
l w _ . . _ _ _ _ _
l l I 61 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
-( ) - AUGUST 12, 1997 1 in terms of the graphs, we don't really know what 1 to 2 5 means or did you test the significance of the 3 differences, you know, and that sort of thing. So it's 4 really hard to know what to make out of some of the 5 findings.
6 My question, though -- 7 A VOICE: She needs another mike. We 1 8 can't hear her here. 9 MS. KUHN: -- is that I notice in tne 10 handout that you gave at the July 22 meeting, there was 11 a question that really concerned me that hasn't been (s 12 given much attention. Are you given the tit and (J a 13 resources to do your job right? And a year ago, it was 14 3.0, June 3.2. So I don't even know if that would be 15 significant. I guess that -- I mean this isn't giving 16 the time and resourcesEto do a stellar performance of 17 something. Just time and resources to do - your j ob l 18 right.
- 19 And what you said was that with regard It 20 to another answer that got a 3.2 answer is that there's O < :21 lots of room for improvement. What you gave -- what i 22 you said here .g was that they're feeling pressure. And l 23 since, you know, Mr. Kenyon has spoken about this clip 24 that's -- that the company is approaching if they don't O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
62 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () AUGUST 12, 1997 1 get restarted in time, I-think that the whole issue of 2 the pressure that these employees feel is -- and it's a 3 terribly, terribly crucial one. And I'm wondering if, 4 since you asked this question, is this in your 5 bailiwick? Do you intend to follow it up? Do you feel 6 that these -- that these employees do feel these 7 enormous pressure and not given the time and resources 8 to do their jobs right? 9 MR. BECK: Specifically answering your l l 10 question will be very difficult. What those numbers l R 11 represent are what people told us when asked thar l8 l 12 question. The difference between a 3.0 and a 3.2 is i 13 not huge. But, you know, it's a very tiny improvement. [ 14 Very tiny, 15 Now, what that answers means to us when 16 we heard it, someone gave it an average -- that's kind 17 of an average response, " Yeah. It's okay. We've got
! 18 the resources." Everybody feels the pressure of time. .[
19 And there's no secret about that. But do we have 20 enough time? Do we have what we need to do our -job O
. 21 right? Those are very specific questions. You know?
l g 22 And the answer we got on that 1 to 5 scale was -- it's l 23 not alarming. I'm sure people would like to be able to 24 on average say 4, you know, " Yeah. I've got plenty of (h
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POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
- w. .. .. . . . .
___j
63 HEARING RE:. MILLSTONE UNITS.
-[) AUGUST 12, 1997 1 time to get my-job done right and the' resources to do
~2 it." But'it's not an _ alarming answer. It didn't 3 necessarily both us. It_could be better, but it's just 4 not alarming.
5 MR. GRIFFIN: The other part~of that is ! I 6 that this also is an area where we did get some 7 specific comments from specific groups within the 8 organization that gave us indications that there may be 9 more schedule pressure in those_ areas than in others. 10 And those are, one, areas that we're going to identify 2 11 to company management and, two, areas-that we intend to R 12 specifically go and monitor- the level of activities as
)
13 we get_ closer to scheduled restart time. I 14 MR. LANNING: _Okay. 15 MR. BECK: Oh, _ let me addJsomething, 16 _though, to something you said earlier, Mary, about'how 17 we -- what we handed out and' how it can be ll 18 misinterpreted if somebody is_not there to hear what we I 19 said that goes along with- the slides. And that's :a T 20 r very good point- and something we struggle with. And-
.O - 21 it's a good observation. And we're going to pay some l- .g 22 attention to that 'and see if we can't do better the -l 23 next time.
24 And, by the way, if anybody's got O' POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l l
._____J
i I 64 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS AUGUST 12, 1997 1 -questions after one'of our presentations or after -- if 2 they see the material, our telephone line is available. 3 It's. -- please _give us a call- and we'll be as
'4 responsive as we can as soon as we can.
5 A VOICE: " hat's your number? 6 MR. BECK: (860) 447-1791, Extension . 7 5966 or (860) 444-5626. And we have an E-Mail' address, 8 .L. Harbor'at aol.com. And I can't remember our P.O. 9 box. 10 A VOICE: Do you know the fax number? R. 11 MR. BECK: And thel fax number, (860) .g 12 447-5758.
-{
=13 MR. LANNING: While the next speaker is 14 coming up, let me make an-introduction. I'd like to
-1 15 introduce Beth Corona. Beth, stand up. Beth is our.
16 more. recent addition to the Special Projects Office. 17 She will be the Resident Inspector at Unit 3. I 18 Okay. {- _7 19 MR. AL CIZEK: Yeah. My name is A1.
- r
I 2 10 _Cizek. I live _in~Haddam. I-live approximately three O'
< 21 miles from CY, which is also approximately two miles b
22 .from Rosemary. So_ I just kind of put that in {.
' l- 23 perspective. We've got to start this off light.
24 Actually, I've got a very simple O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
65 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
) AUGUST 12,-1997 1 question for both sides, the NRC and also Littl3 2 Harbor. And it's going to star: off by sounding like 3 it's a CMP-related question, but it's going to relate 4 quickly to ECP.
5 And recently, Nuclear Oversight issued a 6 stop-work order for the Unit 1 CMP. And the reason for 7 that was the product quality was sub-standard. And was ' 8 it Kenyon? Kenyon and -- took a lot of pride in 9 stating that it was his oversight organization who 10 identified it and brought it to Hull to stop, such that E 11 it could be corrected and then they would be able to R 12 move on. {} 13 And I was thinking about that for a 14 while. And I realized that the results that I heard on 15 July 22 considering implementation of the ECP plan and 16 also the quality of those products was such that things 17 weren't too good. And I said to myself, well, it would I 18 seem like if management has really changed, even if it 19 was only an act, they would put their better foot ir 20 forward and issue a stop-work order and say, "We've got O
< 21 to get this act together so we just don't keep closing g 22 out these concerns but not having a good product l 23 quality. I mean we're not doing it the right way."
24 And I was wondering if you felt that POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i
-66 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS AUGUST 12, 1997 1 that. -was an. indicator ~that the health of I'll say 2 Oversight and, in particular -- well, I'll just say the
-3 ECP, it's not in good health. Is that -- I. mean, you 4 know,-- you hear about the Star Program, for example.
5 Stop right away when things aren't right. And, yet, ! 6 this morning or this afternoon, rather, I heard Mr. g 7 Morgan talk about the number-of concerns that they're p 8 resolving at least -and how they keep plugging away. 9 They've Eot more staff. In- fact, they hired 10 contractors. And I say to myself, "They hired f 11
- [ contractors? How did they even know the_ requirements a-12 for the contractors they're hiring? Do they just right 13 -- send us the right guy? Because they don't know what 114 it is because they.can't do that work themselves."
15 Now, does that -- do I have this wrong 16 -or -- I mean I would. expect -- , 17 A VOICE: . What's your question? ;
'!; -18 MR. LANNING: Yes. What is the
- t. 19 question? Make sure we understand the question.
i r 20 MR. CIZEK: Okay. July 22, we heard i
- s. - 21 some negative news concerning the product quality from
.l-22 ECP, how the investigations were conducted -- } -- l -23 MR. LANNING: The program, 24 MR. CIZEK: Excuse me?
O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l 1
g. 67-HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS h- AUGUST 12,_1997' 1 MR . . LANNING: The Employee Concerns
-2 Program?
3 - MR. CIZEK: Yes. 4 MR. LANNING: 'Okay. 5 MR. CIZEK: All right. And it's a 6 product quality issue. And I was wondering why a-stop-7 work order was not-initiated by, say, Oversight to say, / 8 "We've _ got to stop and figure out how we do- this
~9 properly and then move on." What I . heard today was 10 that Mr. Morgan was saying that he had added
- staff to
;g- 11 keep working on these things.
~12 MR. LANNING: I don't know the answer to 13 that because stop-work orders are normally issued by 14 Oversight, for example. And- I'm not- sure that 15 Oversight had done this review. Right?'
16 MR. McKEE: No, they hadn't. 17 MR. LANNING: And -- -4
- 5. 18 MR. CIZEK: That's superfluous, though.
.- 19 Right? 'I mean -- Morgan reports to -- I mean what's 20 almost. ironic-is that the Employee Concerns Program --
O
.- 21 MR. LANNING: Yes. But I can't'-- I b
22 can't answer your. question as why NU organization
- l. 23 didn't take an action. You know? I can't answer that 24 question.
O- POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
'- 1
_9
68 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS AUGUST 12, 1997 1 MR. CIZEK: Okay. Do you think that's 2 an indicator that things are on the way up here or do 3 you th'.nk it's business as usual? ' 4 MR. LANNING: I don't know. You're 5 asking me to speculate on something I'm really not as 6 knowledgeable about apparently as you are in terms of 7 what the findings were and what the implications were j 8 at the July 22 meeting. So I really can't be 9 responsive to your question. 10 MR. CIZEK: Okay. So you -- it wouldn't 11 be logical if something isn't going well to stop work 12 on it? Is that -- 13 MR. LANNING: It -- 14 MR. CIZEK: Like I said, I'm keeping it 15 very -- I would expect them to say, "Aw, gee. We -- 16 MR. McKEE: Well, you know, you bring up 17 an interesting concept. I mean it's -- I'm trying to
! 18 think on Employee Concerns, you know, how would -- you 19 know, how would you do a stop-work order there? It's a ir 20 rather, you know, different -- I'm not saying it's O
- 21 incorrect. But it's an interesting concept. I don't i 22
_g know you'd say stop, you know, employees from coming l 23 forward. There may be elements that you can deal with 24 and see if you can correct it. But I mean I see your b'" POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
69 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () AUGUST 12, 1997 1 point. But that's not typically how stop-work orders 2 are applied, you know, when they're used. They're 3 usually to an activity at a site and a correction of, 4 you know, a problem. 5 MR. CIZEK: Oka'f. I guess I would like 6 to have Little Harbor respond. If, indeed, the product 7 quality is not what is appropriate, which is clear from 8 what Billie Garde had to say, would you just keep doing 9 the same thing? I mean -- I mean I'm saying to myself 10 it looks like a very fundamental, simplistic thing 11 that's right in front of their face and they didn't see 7"N 12 it. And I say, " Wow. They're -- it's the same place." Lb 13 MR. BECK: Are we in sync? 14 We made our observations. We've made a 15 number of recommendations. And we're looking forward 16 to the implementation schedule and the corrective 17 actions thac the company management is going to take l 18 with regard to the Employee Concerns Program. That's
- 19 what we're charged to do in our oversight plan and ir 20 we've executed that thus far.
O
. 21 I'd like to add one thing, though. I 1
g 22 think it's important, A1, and - it's directed also to
$ 23 some concerns that one of the previous ladies raised 24 here just a moment ago. And that has to do with the POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
l
17 0 _
-; HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS .
. AUGUST 12, 1997 1 effectiveness or lack of effectiveness.
2 We're looking at things in three primary 3 areas. One, programmatic. Do they have a program that 4 - addresses what it needs to address? Two, are. they
'5 -implementing'their -program effectively?- And' you can-6 see the nature of-the-implementation reviews that we're '
'7 doing by looking at.the ECP program that we' presented !
8 on the -22nd. Three, are the; results of that- [ 9 implementation. effective?- And that effectiveness key-10 is going to extend not just tc the ECP program when-
.R- - 11 they address, the recommendations we've made, .but it's.
- R 12 also going to go across the board to' a Corre::tive
-13 Action-Program. 'For example, is the Corrective Action 14 Program being used to resolve employee . concerns 15 effective in resolving them and fixing what was broken? ;
16 So those three things are- important. ,
-17 iAnd it. would-certainly apply to this particular case.
See what the company 18 does with it. And we're going.to-4[- 19 watch very closely. And you'll hear more about it at t 20 future meetings.
-0
< '21 MR. CIZEK: -Yeah. I-have one other I'll
;[. '
;{ -22 say- observation. And during the 22nd meeting, you-l- indicated that. most' employees would -- woul'dn't be --
-23
-24 not necessarily-be comfortable, but would take that POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT ~(800) 262-4102 b
71 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS h AUGUST 12, 1997
- 1 step to bring up an issue, a safety- concern and'that 2 was a positive. sign the flag was blowing in the right
-3 direction. And yes, it is. I concur. I also look at 4 the conditions'upon which you got that- information ,
5 what =the conditions were when you- acquired that 6 -information. 7 You have a plant. The plant's under'- 8 shutdown. They're under high scrutiny. Supervisors
'9 and managers, whatever, would love to have their 10 employees _say they would be willing to bring up issues.
{ 11 12 They know_ what particular the right answer: is. For .this-test question, they know' what the right 13 answer is to get full credit by the management, which 14 is, "Yes, I'd be willing to." 15 And how -good of an indicator is -- are 16 your.results of future behavior when the conditions 17 have changed? And when I say the- conditions have- I
- I 18 changed, now you're still saying managers and !
.- -19 supervisors are.in place. -But now perhaps your concern
.} . 'r 20 might shut down the plant. . Now , _ do-you think that o
. 21 person would be'as willing to bring it up?
I
- g. 22 I think you -- I guess-what the -- what
-l _ l23 I'm trying to distinguish'here or make you separate out 24 - here is- that that--your- first survey or- the interview - O POST' REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
~
g- -
72 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS AUGUST 12, 1997 4 1 results were more a test question of what the right 2 answer was. And I don't think that s a good predictor 3 of what -- if they will exhibit the proper behavior 4 when the conditions change. I mean can you comment on 5 that? 6 By the way, I don't think it's possible 7 to do -- to do it. I don't think you can get today's 8 information and predict how people's behavior will be 9 in the future. I mean I don't think so. That's my 10 opinion. 11 MS. GARDE: Let me try to answer your l 12 question, A1. And, again, I think that that question 13 seems to have been misinterpreted because the answer 14 being interpreted seems to mean -- or there seems to be 15 a belief that because 100 percent of the people said 16 they'd raise a nuclear safety concern if they were 17 aware of it through one of the available avenues, that 18 that translates into "Okay. Everything's better now." f f 19 And although that's a very important 20 thing to know and they know what the right answer was, o
- 21 I can't tell you how difficult it was for some people I
g 22 to answer that question. And I think that the survey l 23 information accurately reflects that. And maybe by the 24 answers being reported like out of centext, you know, O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
~
73 LEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
- O:- AuGuSr 12 1997 1 in ~the terms of you gave all the answere to one 2 - question, all the answers to'the next question, it lost j' -3 something in its translation because there were people 4 even- that I interviewed that struggled with that 5 answer. . That struggle is reflected in the comments.
6 And if you look at those comments, 7 you'll see "I would not raise a safety concern to my 8 supervisor. But if I _was aware.of a concern, I would 9 call it in to the 'NRC anonymously." That is an
'10 important barometer of .w hat people said. It is not 'R_ 11 like everybody said, "Oh, yes, I will raise a safety-K' 12 concern" like they're all_ -- raised it in rote, said 13 the same thing and got past that test question.
l 14 As an ECP -investigator yourself,. you
-15 know people struggle with how they' re going to raise an 16 issue and<how they pursue an issue. I don't think we
-17 have --made the leap that that answer means .that is an I 18 -accurate predictor of future behaviors.
- 19 We don't know, for example, if -we ask jf 20 that question to every person in the Training
'O-
'. 21 Department right now, regardless of the validity of p :22 those actions, what the answers would be within that l 23 department. Events can change the way people react to 24 situations.
O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
74 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS-l AUGUST 12, 1997'
-1 And we have to-go and pursue that. And 2 that's what -- that's-part of what we have to look at.
3 It is a very difficult _ question. You know, this is
.4 referred to frequently as the softer issues. There'is-5 nothing soft about-these problems. These problems are 6 very difficult.
-? MR. GRIFFIN:
I think -- just a couple 8 of the points that you raised, A1, I agree what we l: 9 presented was a snapshot of what the work force -- the 10 portion of the work force that we talked to felt in the ' E-R: 11 June / July time frame and I agree that it's an extremely 12 dynamic situation and that any set of circumstances can i 13 change that can change how they would have reacted or-14 would react to those questions.
-15 In fact, 'following the disciplinary-16 action that was taken, we had a number of- people that-
'17 came to- us with concerns, some of which-were people
.I 18 that had participated in interviews saying that "If I l-
-19 were- asked those -same questions today, I'd probably Ir 20 answer differently."
O --
- r. 21 So it is a dynamic situation. And it's Lg, 22 lnot a predictor. It's a snapshot of what we saw and
- (( -
l 23 what we' heard and what we found in the June / July' time
-24 frame.-
O POST REPORTING SERVICE IMMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
1~ 175-- HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
-O. . AUGUST ~12, 1997
'1 The other- thing I think .that is 2 important ---
and.it goes back maybe= to your-first
'3 question -- is - to the effectiveness of their self-4 ' assessment or oversight activities.
-5 You -know,- one of our --
one of our 6 objectives. is to make sure that -the kinds of 7 discrepancies that we found over the long run are, in 8 -fact, : identified internal ; the organization. You-9 know. That's what you want in a healthy environment, j 10 You 'want the' self-assessment organization, the self-
!R- 11 assessment process to identify those . problems- that R
j} 12 exist bdfore anybody from the'outsidefhas to find them, l
'13 _And that's what we're looking for in the long-term.
14 MR. CIZEK: I'll just follow up_on that-15 with one! additional question. In my opinion, thisc
'16 sounds- not-that far off from_what you said here; is, 17 yeah, it may not be the-best predictor or even a good H18 -predictor, bu't it's the .best we have. I mean at least_
3]'---- 19 it tells us where we are today. Obviously,-if we were than1
'20 -nowhere- today,- then probably we_would be less 0 --
; [= .
'21 nowhere i'n the- future. Right?. So-that's a-good sign
?22 the-flag is going'in -the right direction. Fine. So-
={l l- 23 that tells me -- and I'm aware that the NRC is looking
=24 or expecting- anything that's -committed =to this -that,
-Q: POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
I' 76 HEARING RS: MILLSTONE IJN1TS () AUGUST 12, 1997 1 assuming permission is granted to start up a plant, 2 that you will be there for a sufficient amount of time t 3 to show that, indeed, you're getting similar signals 4 from the staff out there that, yes, they would be 5 willing to bring up safety concerns. 6 And I guess the question I have 7 specifically now is how long do you think you have to i 8 do that, I mean before you say it's solved here? Is it 9 two years? I mean I don't think it's two weeks, for 10 sure. Right? And two months? No. A year? Two 2 11 years? That's speculation.
-R 12 MR. TRAVERS: Your question --
13 MR. CIZEK: Speculation. 14 MR. TRAVERS: But I'll tell you what the 15 order, which again is not very quantitative in its 16 expression, states. It recognizes, as you pointed out, 17 Al, that this issue isn't simply a restart issue. It's l 18 one that importantly this utility in the first instance
- 19 needs to address on a continuing basis. It's an ir- 20 important element in the responsibilities that they o
. 21 hold along with their license. I'm sure that the work 8
g 22 force feels able and unconstrained to raise issues of
.s .l 23 this sort.
24 But to get to your question POST REPORTING SERVICE E%MDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
.. i
77 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS I) x- AUGUST 12, 1997 1 specifically, the order that the NRC has issued to 2 Northeast in this area states specifically that even 3 beyond restart .we would expect this third-party 4 oversight requirement to remain in effect until 5 sufficient progress is demonstrated by the utility to 6 the NRC that would in our judgment warrant this 7 oversight role no longer required. 8 Again, it's not -- it's not a l 9 quantitative thing to say that. But the kinds of l ( 10 measures that Phil McKee and Lictle Harbor have been 11 talking about this evening I think are going to be the (~ 12 same kinds of measures that we're going to continue to V) 13 evaluate. 14 But I don't want to diminish what we're 15 doing in our oversight roles respectively related. 16 From the very primary, first order of responsibility
.17 that the utility has is put in place -a program that I 18 continues to emphasize that the work force should, in - 19 fact, be relied upon to raise these kinds of issues and h 20 r not be retaliated upon for raising them. That's their O . 21 responsibility.
I g 22 And right now, we have the assistance of 3 23 Little Harbor to help see that that program and those 24 responsibilities are being met. We're going to be POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
-,n .,. ,. . . -
78 73 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS' () AUGUST 12, 1997' 1 doing the same thing. We're going to be doing it for 2 some time. And we have to rely on this utility to put 3 into place the kind of program that will achieve that 4 kind of result. 5 MR. CIZEK: Okay. Thank you. 6 MR. LANNING: Go ahead. Sure. 7 MS. SUSAN LUXTON: Oh, He has it so 8 low. I'm not a midget. 9 Hi. Can you hear me? Susan Perry ' l 10 Luxton from Waterford. Thank you for being here. But, R 11 you know, I get a kick out of what you just said, Mr. R
,r^s 12 Travers, because after you come on so seriously about La) 13 not for us to worry in the public because you're here 14 overseeing, all I could think of was the GAO Report 15 because we know- -- we know the findings of the GAO 16 Report say first, one, NRC is not effectively 17 overseeing the plants that have problems, NRC is not I le getting licensees to fix deficiencies in a timely
- 19 manner. Relying on Plant Managers to fix problems is
! 20 not always effective.
e NRC -- I mean really. O 21 So here, I mean you sound so good-to us. E g 22 But please, we still listen to everything you say with l 23 a grain of salt. 24 MR. TRAVERS: I understand. O ~ POST RFPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (300) 262-4102 1 i
79 HEARING RE:-MILLSTONE UNITS- [ I ). AUGUST 12, 1997 1 l 1 .MS. LUXTON:L Now, I -'have a- couple of 2 things. I want to first get to your deficiencies that L . l 3 ' remain in the ECP that- you have on your papers here, 4 ;your handouts. One I'm concerned with is the-intake 5 process is .not-properly- prioritizing nuclear safety 6 concerns,. retaliation issues and the intake and 7 investigation- of' concerns is often performed 8 inconsistently. 9 I : happened to be looking through; 10 something I found called the Comprehensive Action Plan.
~
2 :11 And it says by- 3/98 -- now,.this is the Comprehensive R
/~Y 12 Action Plan of the -- of the ECP. Am V; I correct in 13 that?
14 MR. BECK: .The utility. < 15 MS. LUXTON: The utility. 1RJ . Right. 16 'They have~ here~the due date is 3/30/98, complete all
- .7 : required ECP intake /investigatcr-training. That was by'
'I 18 -- that's supposed to be by March 1998, it says here.
- f. -
19 Okay. f
.r-l: 20 -Now, has any of that:been done? Har it -- o ; .
w- 127. -been -started? Has any training happened? And are you I g 21 going to track that that happens?
-l '23 MR. BECK: Does that say '98 or '97?
24 MS. LUXTON: Actually, I'm surprised.
" )! =6- POST. REPORTING SEF.VICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 2(2-4102 T , _
-- . . __u
3; I 80 HEARING'RE: MILLSTVNE UNITS [( ).- AUGUST 12, 1997 1 It does say '98. LI think it was typo. Do you think it 2 1must be, Mr. Grif fin? 13 MR. GRIFFIN: I think the original 4 schedule was that- that training would be done 'this-5 year.
.6 MS. GARDE: I think'that's a typo, as.
7 well. 8 MS. LUXTON: It's an interepting typo. l: 9 I better circle that one. [10 MS. GARDE: At the time that we -- at R 111 the. time that- we finished our review- of the. ECP
;g
'12 . program, there had been some intake training that had
)
13 been given to some of the ECP investigators and there.
- l 14 was other intake training that was scheduled, but itL 15 wasn' t yet: completed and the program wasn't -- I mean 16 .the training requirements, that is, like what do you <
17 have to know how. to do to finish your . intake reviews, I 18 hadn't been fully-fleshed out. Does that answer your
.- 19 question?-
j '20 MS. LUXTON: It certainly-does. So what 0
. 21 you're- saying is they haven't even originated the c$
22 training per se. The questions'hadn't been fleshed out
-{
I 23 . fully. 24 MS. GARDE: Well, _the training was in
, POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT- (800) 262-4102
81 j UUT 1 flux.- ,So there was some' training that was given. But 2 since they- hadn't finished _ writing all of the various. 3 requirements,'it's very possible that when they~ finish
-4 writing. all the ~ requirements, that they would have L -
5 identified--- I'll give you an example. .It's- just 6 -hypothetical. But, for? example, they- may have _q l'
- 7 concluded that they wanted all people who-did intake to-
-8 be qualified :to do' a reportability determination 9 according to those. That's a very specific _ standard. l
.10 They hadn't made that decision yet. So, therefore,
'E 11 even-if they added that decision, people hadn't been
-R 12 . trained- to that. But there was some training that had.
13 been given to some of.the' people doing intake. 14 MR. __ GRIFFIN: .The second half - of_your 15 question as' to whether_ we're going- to track it, the 16 company is- required to respond .to our presentation, 17 each and every discrepancy or. deficiency that we've-l 18 identified, And we expect as part of that a schedule 7 19 as to when they. would have each of these items
- g,
'ra ;20 completed,.at-which time we fully intend to go back in, O: .- 21 evaluate:again each of these activities to make:sure-4 } 22 that they've been closed.to our expectations. !l 23 MS. LUXTON: All right. Okay. That's 24 -
good. The- reason I'm concerned about- that is because O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
82 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
-([ AUGUST 12, 1997 1 I'm remembering -at the July 22 meeting and the >
2 presentation that you gave, Billie Garde gave an 3 incident with Buzz- Carnes and not --- and he's
.4 leadership _now we're talking about. We're not talking
;5 about._line management. Leadership not being aware that 6 he , in fact, was causing a chilling effect among -W was
-7 it causing a chilling effect?
8 MS. GARDE: No. l 9 MS.:LUXTON: What was it? 1 10 MS. GARDE: It wasn't causing _- it_was
.R- 11 not -- it was not identifying -- ! .R-i 12 MS. LUXTON: Okay. j
- 13 MS. GARDE: ----that there was a 14 complaint being brought to his attention that- dealt 15 .with conduct ofesupervisors and others that nuc only 16 could. cause-a . chilling effect, but-these two people
-17 were1 saying that there was a kind of " shoot the
..I 18 -messenger" approach --
~
-19 MS. LUXTON: Right.
r- 20 MS. GARDE: -- that was. being taken-to 10 Lv 21 their having raised concerns. And my comment to-him
-l- -
g- _ 22 was that he 'hadn't seen that in the context of the
-l 23 presentation that these two workers gave him.
24 MS. LtTXTON: Right. So, basically, he 10 POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800)-262-4102 i
83 7, HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS ( ,) AUGUST 12, 1997 1 is part of the intake process. Now that -- 2 MS. GARDE: No. 3 MS. LUXTON: He isn't? Well, isn't that 4 intake? I mean they have all these hotlines that 5 people can come and talk to -- talk to Buzz Carnes or j 6 whatever. That's a way of expressing a concern. So 7 you -- he becomes intake. No? 8 MS. GARDE: Well, yes and no. The 9 intake -- the intake training question, you asked when ! ^ l 10 -- specifically to ECP staff. All right? So we look 11 whether or not ECP staff -- (] 12 MS. LUXTON: Okay. C/ 13 MS. GARDE: -- were trained. You kind 14 of switched in the middle of your question to a broader 15 perspective, which is whether or not management -- 16 MS. LUXTON: Right. 17 MS. GARDE: -- across the site --
!4 18 MS. LUXTON: That's my next part.
f 19 MS. GARDE: -- was trained in i e 20 identifying issues. And that is part of a kind of G
. 21 broader intake iFsue. And that was missed. And we are b .g 22 waiting to hear what the site is going to do to fix $ 23 that.
24 MS. LUXTON: Okay. Good. Because -- POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
84 HUARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () 7s AUGUST 12, 1997 l 1 MS. GARDE: Mr. Griffin wants to -- 2 MS, LUXTON: Okay. 3 MR. GRIFFIN: And again on that one 4 specifically, they do have another line item in that 5 Comprehensive Action Plan to develop training for 6 supervisors and managers -- 7 MS. LUXTON: I'm going to get to that. 8 MR. GRIFFIN: -- on recognition, et 9 cetera. 10 MS. LUXTON: Okay. 11 MR. GRIFFIN: We have not looked at that 12 yet. That's pr of our ongoing activities. So we've 13 -- you know, we've identified that as something that's 14 going to be covered in the next -- next set of our 15 activities. But we have not looked at that training 16 specifically to date. 17 MS. LUXTON: Okay. Good. Because
! 18 that's what I was going to come to on my next page of 19 the Comprehensive Plan, which says " Complete managing .
.g.
r 20 for nuclear safety training by third quarter.
-O
< 21 Personnel promoted into supervisory positions shoulc j 22 complete course within 90 days of effective promotion l 23 and ensure all managers and first-line supervisors 24 complete a course on professional dissent." So they POST REPORTING SERVICE rIAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
85 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () AUGUST 12, 1997 1 have not done the course on professional dissent yet. 2 Ani I to understand that? 3 MR. GRIFFIN: They have not. 4 MS. LUXTON: But you're going to track 5 that and make sure that that gets done. 6 MR. GRIFFIN: Yes. 7 MS. LUXTON: All right. 8 MR. GRIFFIN: We're tracking all items 9 on the Comprehensive Plan -- 10 MS. LUXTON: Okay. R 11 MR. GRIFFIN: -- and all of the items R 12 that we've identified in addition to it, s 13 MS. LUXTON: Okay .reat. That's my 14 question about that. Okay. 15 Now, the next question has to do with 16 the other day's meeting, the other's' day meeting in 17 Maryland. I was concerned about several things. I I 18 want you to clarify something,.Mr. Beck. You said, 1
- 19 after giving your findings, you said to Commissioner 20 Diaz, "As our understanding of management's reaction to o- . 21 this finding is that they have-embraced the findings l
g 22 and they are working diligently to correct every one of S l 23 the deficiencies and that we have pointed -- that we 24 have pointed out to them." Can you clarify to me how POST REPORTING SERVICE , HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l s a
l i I 86 ( HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS i AUGUST 12, 1997 1 you know they're diligently working to correct every 2 ene of these deficiencies? 3 MR. BECK: Part of our efforts involve 4 what I want to call just observations by walking 5 around. We committed to do that. And we do that a lot 6 in a lot of different. areas. Although we have not 7 received a formal response from company management as 8 to specifically how and when they're going to be 9 dealing with our recommendations, we are aware of the 10 fact that they are working on it and working very hard { 11 to come to gripa with what we discovered and what we 12 told them about. {} 13 So that's -- and how we became aware of 14 it is our walking around. We're frequently checking , 15 with ECP, for example. When people come directly to us 16 with a concern, our business is not to deal with that 17 concern. Our business is to be sure that they get it 18 into the system somehow. And we commit as part of our 19 oversight activities to see what happens when it does 20 go into the. system. So we're frequently over there O - 21 talking with them, tracking, making sure that things g 22 are hapoening au others have said they are. l 23 MS. LUXTON: Good. Okay. Now, when do 24 you anticipate -- POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 3
-- _ . _ _ ._~ _ _ _ . _ _ _ _,
87 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
( ~) AUGUST 12, 1997 1 MR. GRIUFIN: But, Billie pointed out 2 Kenyon also said they embraced the findings. So --
3 MS. LUXTON: Okay. So when do you 4 anticipate that they'll come back to you? Is there a 5 time frame at all for them to respond to your findings 6 or not? Because if they're talking about a September 7 30 restart, ready for restart date that I heard today, 8 I'm a little concerned. It's already --
9 MR. BECK: I don't know --
10 MS. LUXTON: -- August 15.
11 MR. BECK: I don't know the answer to r^N 12 that question.
U 13 MS. LUXTON: Okay. Let's see. Now, 14 another thing that bothered me about this transcript, 15 this meeting with Little Harbor, was we -- it harkens 16 back to the issue that we've been talking abcut in 17 these last few months about consultants and oversight I 18 and what is the role of Little Harbor Consultants.
I
- 19 Because when I saw Ms. Shirley Jackson's responses to 20 Beck's, Mr. Beci0 -
.- . 21 MR. KENNEDY: It starts to, Billie. I'm' i
!l
-l 22 not -- you know, I-don't really normally get that exact
,3
-l 23 on numbers. But I'm more interested in that number ;
'... 24 that's represented there that have retaliation POST REPORTING SERVICE I HAMDEN, CT- (800) 262-4102
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1 I 101 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS g_)s (_ AUGUST 12, 1997 1 allegations. And if there were some that were nuclear 2 safety concerns, then, by definition, if there's 3 retaliation involved in a nuclear safety concern, we'd 1 4 be discussing a chilling effect iscle in that open i 5 percentile of the concerns alleging retaliation. And 6 did Little Harbor, in fact, identify specific I 7 individuai cases where there could be a chilling effect 8 and identify that to ECP? And is there going to be 9 further investigation on that? 10 MS. GARDE: The information about which 2 11 of the files contain retaliation issues were K 12 conclusions that were reached after Little Harbor {} 13 Consultants reviewed the files and then verified that 14 information with ECP personnel. So we had a meeting of 15 the minds on the numbers. And we're going to follow up 16 all cases of retaliation. Does that answer your 17 question? I 18 MR. KENNEDY: I understand that -- I
- 19 MS. GARDE: I mean we're going to do a 20 100-percent review of those.
O
< 21 MR. KENNEDY: If there are some that do g 22 involve nuclear safety -- one of your criticisms of the h 23 Employee Concerns Program was that they were not 24 prioritizing those cases that involved nuclear safety h POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
. - - - - - . - _ - - - ~ _- .. . . .=-. -- - _ _ _ .. .-
I 102 HEARIMG RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () AUGUST 12, 1997 1 concerns. So when you go back and look at these files 2 further with the employee concerns, there will be a 3 prioritization that any nuclear safety concern that may 4 be out there that has any hint of retaliation will be 5 looked at first? 6 MS. GARDE: I would expect the company 7 would have taken that from our presentation. We 8 haven't been back to look at that. So I can't tell you 9 whether they've done that. 10 MR. KENNEDY: I understand that message 11 you gave on July 22. And I think that it was a - 12 powerful message and I think' that it was -- was 13 listened to very carefully. 14 As part of that, too, Billie, there's 15 another section where you mention that 50 individuals 16 had doubts about raising concerns. But those concerns 17 were described as personnel type issues? Was that I 18 yours, John? Mr. Beck? 19 MR. BECK: Yes.
-l 20 MR. KENNEDY: Okay. Now, on that, on r
-O
< 21 that issue where there were individuals that were i 23 reluctant to raise concerns, were there any cases where g ,
l 23 those were nuclear safety concerns as opposed to 24 personnel type concerns? You mentioned there was 100-O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
103 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
'O aucuSr 12 1997 1 percent willingness to raise --
2 MR. BECK: No. 3 MR. KENNEDY: Okay. So there were no 4 cases among those 50 that involved a nuclear safety 5 concern. Okay. That was my impression that from our 6 surveys, from our structured interviews, we seem to l 7 have at least in the last year gained at Millstone a 8 population that a year ago -- you know, you talked 9 about the statistic of about 3.2 on a scale of 1 to 5 10 were, you know, convinced there was a chilling effect 11 there and that number has dropped to about a 1.8 or so. 12 So I personally as an employee think 13 that's an immense improvement. I think that we have 14 some more space to go on that, obviously; that we're 15 not patting ourselves on the back about that. But I 16 think as an employee that that represents quite a bit 17 of change over the last year. And I'm encouraged by I 18 the report that Little Harbor gave on July 22 in that
- 19 regard.
Ie 20 Now, I had a question for Billie Garde
-o .L 21 again. .4 nd this revolves around the 37 percent of g 22 those cases with the ECP that there was a reluctance to h 23 come back to the Employee Concerns Program. And since 24 I had a little bit of involvement in crafting up the O
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
104 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () AUGUST 12, 1997 1 Comprehensive Plan and the creation of the new Employee 2 Concerns Program, I'm interested in whether or not this 3 37 percent reflected current Employee Concerns Program 4 or that the numbers were influenced because there was 5 historical data from previous -- you know, as the 6 Hannon report and as the Quinn report identified that 7 the Nuclear Safety Concerns Program, the forerunner to 8 the new program that we have, was deemed to be 9 ineffective and if we have some of those people that l 10 were interviewed in the follow-up to see how their ll 11 concerns were dispositioned and that 37 percent, you 12 know, expressed a displeasure and some of those people {} 13 were based on what was acknowledged to be a program 14 that was ineffective in the past. 15 Is this somehow affecting our perception 16 of the current Employee Concerns Program as being -- 17 MS. GARDE: No.
'I 18 MR. KENNEDY: -- the numbers? ; 19 MS. GARDE: Mike. We --
we began ir 20 looking at files that were open as of December '96. So O
= 21 we looked at files in three different batches.
I g- 22 MR. KENNEDY: Okay. l 23 MS. GARDE: I had a slide that presented 24 that. And so we had Batch A, Batch B and Batch C. All O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
105 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
) AUGUST 12, 1997
-1 of those were closed or resolved under present 2 management. And we did it for just that reason.
? MR. KENNEDY: I understand.
4 MS. GARDE: So that we were measuring 5 was current events. And from within people whose 6 concerns were closed, that is where that' number came 7 from. So it -- the statistic deals with the present 8 program. 9 MR. KENNEDY: Thank you, Billie. That 10 answered my question quite well. g 11 A little while ago, I think Rosemary {) 12 Bassilakis brought up a very good question. And that 13 involved the issue about how NU is dealing with people
-14 in different disciplinary contexts, whether it be a 15 senior corporate officer or a trainer or a rank-and-16 file employee that may have made a mistake in following 17 a procedure, whether or not the discipline is even I 18 across the board or a dual standard exists. -And she
.- 19 talked about proposing, you know, a standard that we 20 should have. I think we talked about the fairness of
.o
. 21 that.
g' ~22 And I agree that in principle that was a
- l. 23 good idea. And at times I've wondered. That's been 24 one of our hardest issues to grapple with is, in
-()- POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
106 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS h AUGUST 12, 1997 1 establishing accountability, how we get to that stage.. 2 Billie, I understand your answer legally 3 about how if you set up a clear, concise disciplinary 4 matrix where if somebody's done "X", they get a day l l 5 off. If somebody does "Y" after that, they get a week 6 off.- And-after that, third time they're out the door.- 7 But' isn't it true in dealing with some 8 of these issues,- the softer skill issues,- that=there 9 are degrees of harm that could be done that may call 10 for flexibility, as: Bruce Kerlyon's called out for, or
-{
11 if'some latitude in the disciplinary standard?
.12 There may be some times when somebody 13 makes a fairly innocent remark and, in the current 14 culture and the current context, that's taken as a 15 fairly significant event when, in fact, it's not-that 16 important'. But then I think there was -an example I-17 heard about a nuclear power plant in Texas where a QA I 18 Inspector that was going to file a welding report was -
19 -
' his life was threatened by a supervisor- if he went 20 ahead. I know that falls into the criminal area as o- . 21 well as just, you know, an internal company. .l
{ 22 disciplinary policy. 'But 'it could be just one time l 23 saying one thing is so bad that that deserves an 24 immediate termination. And in the other case, what O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
107 n HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS (_) AUGUST 12, 1997 1 someone else is purely innocent and may not even 2 involve, you know, a first-line disciplinary level. So 3 the difficulty in constructing that kind of 4 disciplinary protocol is very hard because how do you 5 get through those black, you know, white and gray 6 areas? 7 I understand that's some issue you've 8 talked about and tried to, you know, come up with a 9 solution with in the past. I was wondering if you had 10 any chance, since Rosemary Bassilakis mentioned that, 11 for any further thoughts on that area. (3 12 MS. GARDE: Well, it's a very difficult V 13 area. And I didn't recommend, you know, the 14 standardized. What I said is standardizing makes it 15 easier. When things are easier, it doesn't necessarily 16 make it right or make it better. 17 And that really isn't our place. That , I 16 really isn't Little Harbor's job to decide that. What I 19 is our job to decide is if what the company is doing is 20 effective in eradicating the belief among employees eo
. 21 that hold that belief that they may be subject to I
g- 22 retaliation, retribution in any form, if they raise a
'$ 23 safety concern. That's our job.
24 If -- how the company gets there isn't, h' POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
108 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () AUGUST 12, 1997 1 you know, really our business. It is our business to 2 13ach a conclusion if it's not effective. 3 MR. KENNEDY: I understand. 4 MS. GARDE: Does that answer your 5 question? G MR. KENNEDY: Yes. Yes, it does answer 7 it. And I'm encouraged to know that, like you, like 8 me, we're having a tough one with this. It's not-an 9 easy question to answer about how a company does that 10 disciplinary policy, particularly in this context. g 11 I had a final question for you all. And 12 this is dealing with what Mr. Beck talked about. We (v^) 13 have, what, a .09 omega standard deviation fran your 14 structured interviews? I think that, you know, was 15 mentioned before. Right, Mr. Beck? 16 MR. BECK: That was a standard deviation 17 for one question having to do with how people rate 18 their supervisor. 19 MR. KENNEDY: And that was what? 4.1 h r 20 rating? O
*- 21 MR. BECK: 3.8 with a .9 standard g 22 deviation.
b 23 MR. KENNEDY: I understand. That 4.1 is 24 pretty high, isn't it? That -- on a scale of 1 to 5, O V POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
s 109 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
.O. ^uoust 12' 1997 1 that's pretty good.
2 MR. BECK: Yes.. Between 3 and 5. l 3 That's better than average, in the eyes of those who 4 were answering-the question. 5 MR. KEF.EDY: Okay. It seems like if we 6 get to some: of those pockets and start finding 'out 7 .where the problems are, they think that the majority _of 8 first-line supervisors- that- have been under an-9 incredible challenge in the last couple of years that 10 are doing a great job -- once those pockets are, you i f2R 11 know, I think looked at and hopefully resolved in most 12 cases, I think we're going to see that number, which is
'? already pleasing, ' rise. That's just my own feeling.
14 And that's my. final comment or question for Little 15 Harbor, 16 Thank you. 17 MR. LANNING: Okay. This is still 18 questions about Employee Concerns. Okay.
';_ 19 MR. ROBERT FROMER: Is this on?
20 MR. LANNING: Turn en the button. O
'a 21 MR FROMER: Here we go. Robert Fromer, l' 'g. 22 New . London. I had a number of questions and a number l 23 of comments. One of the things is I wanted to pick up 24 on a- comment that was made by Susan Perry Luxton POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 a n
110 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS (-) AUGUST 12, 1997 1 concerning Chairman Shirley Jackson and the c .. ants of 2 Dr. Travers. 3 Now, in a prior -- in a prior meeting 4 that we had here, I raised this issue because I'm 5 basically a person that likes to. deal in fundamentals 6 and basics. And I find the Commission engaged in an 7 awful lot of minutia but it fails to see the bigger 8 picture. And I find it insulting to the public's 9 intelligence, actually, to listen to the defense of 10 your actions, Dr. Travers. So let me address this l n 11 issue. 12 In prior meetings, you said that the {~} 13 contract between NU and Little Harbor was not available i 14 to the public. You indicated that the NRC didn't have 15 a copy of this contract, yet you required that -the -- 16 that Little Harbor -- tnat NU hire Little Harbor to 17 engage in oversight. And now you have the Chairman of 18 the Commission, a very important Federal Commission, f I 19 who opens her mouth without full knowledge of what's i : lr 20 going on, has egg all over her face, irrespective of l0* 21 the ultimate outcome. And the reason being that you, j 22 the staff, didn't require or don't request a copy of k 23 the contract which I as a member of the public have 24 continually asked for. And, Dr. Travers, you didn't G V POST REPORTING SERVICE
- HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 I
- . . , - .. - . . -. . - - ...-..--.-_- .._..._.-. - -._ ._ ~ ... _ __.-
111 ' HEARING RE: MILLSTONE' UNITS - E H( )1 AUGUST 12, 1997' F i i staff -- you didn't staff the issue with Chairman 2 Jackson to avoid-that issue. So I find you at fault. 3 And I find that this definitely has an f 4 adverse, deleterious effect on the public's belief and L 5 ability to have trust in the NRC in terms of your 6 ability to do your job. 7 Now, I wanted to raise some comments. 8 with -- 9 MR. TRAVERS:- Do you want me to respond? 10 MR. FROMER: Yes. Please.- Eut I'm sure i 11 you're just going-to justify it. { L{} 12 MR. TRAVERS: Well, maybe I'll' answer 13 . it. l_ L 14 MR. FROMER: Go ahead. - l 15 MR. TRAVERS:. Maybe I'll -provide 16 .something that you hadn't thought of. 17 Interesting. I hadn't thought -- I-18 - haven't heard-that term before.- But I haven't intended I
... 19 to insult anyone's intelligence. If .you felt I've 20 insulted yours, I certainly apologize for that.
?O !!= 21 We've had discussionsoabout the contract i( 22 that Little Harbor-has with Northeast because-Northeast
-g ng?
. f= r 23 has. to pay -Little Harbor. And I thought we made it !
- 24 very clear and understandable to -- as we could that ;
i POST REPORTING SERVICE RAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102-o n
, l. 4'__ , , . , , , . _ . . , _ .c..., , . _ _ _ . , ,.__,,,,,m,,_l_',. .,,._..,,..,4o,.Q,.J_m._,_-,, _,.-..,,,_f_. , . . . _ , . . _ , , - . , . , , , _ _ , , . _ , , . . . , . . , . ,
412 HEACNG RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () AUGUST 12, 1997 1 the contract in terms of what Little Harbor's role is 2 has been e/tablished. It's been established in an 3 audit plan that is available to the public. We've made 4 it available. We've had briefings about what Little 5 Harbor proposed and what we approved. 6 So the real meat of what Little Harbor 7 is doing, its role and what its role isn't and what its 8 role is, has been available to you. The only thing 9 that I don't have and, frankly, I don't need, is a copy 10 of the financial arrangements that Northeast has with g 11 Little Harbor. I don't need it because what I need \ c j {} 12 from Little Harbor has been established on the record. 13 And you're certainly welcome to read it in the context 14 of the audit plan and the qualifications that we 15 reviewed associated with the Little Harbor personnel 16 being employed in this project. So I guess I don't 17 understand your point. 18 MR. FP7MER: Well, the point is you f
-f 19 don't -- you haven't presented to the public -- what i .r 20 you've presented to the public is what is contained in O . 21 a document, but you have refused to provide the I
g 22 document to the public. That's like saying to -- l 23 MR. TRAVERS: Oh, I -- 24 MR. FROMER: That's like saying to a h POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 w % v
113 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS fff AUGUST 12, 1997 1 Judge, n.uv Honor -- 2 MR. TRAVERS: The document is public. 3 You can read it. 4 MR. FROMER: The contract. Is the 5 contract public? 6 MR. TRAVERS: The contract has no 7 bearing on the issue. 8 MR. FROMER: Well, wait. That's the 9 issue. It's like saying to a Judge, "Your Honor, we're 10 going to interpret for you an original document and we 11 hope you believe it" and the Judge says, "Sure." Okay? (~'m 12 The thing is why you continue to refuse C) 13 to make a document, the basic document, even if it's 14 just financial information, available. Why don't you 15 have it, s ee " Why isn't it available to the public? 16 And why didn't you staff that information to Chairman 17 Jackson? That's the real issue.
! 18 A VOICE: We've already answered that --
3 19 MR. FROMER: I know you are. I know you h r 20 are. O
< 21 Now, Little Harbor, I have some
' b 22 questions for you. And I probably -- well, let me ask { l 23 you a question or make statements. One of the things 24 that's a major issue in your study, your review, is the
'~'
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
114 g- HEARING RE: MILLSTONE Uh"tTS (f AUGUST 12, 1997 1 issue of chilling effect. Okay? 2 And one of the factors that may have an 3 impact on the degree of chilling effect is something I 4 don't think -- and I don't know. And that's why I'm 5 asking you this -- that you've considered. Okay? ! 6 And that the real important, pertinent 7 issue -- because with the nuclear Navy, there have'oeen 8 instances and with EB -- and I hate to mention EB. 9 Let's say any nuclear -- any submarine builder in the 10 United States have had experiences where disgruntled [* 1?
,1 employees for one reason or another have engaged in 1? retaliatory, perhaps even violent, activity. Okay?
13 So the question here is have you 14 researched any records of the Security Department to 15 make a connection between disgruntled employees under 16 the Employee Concerns Program or just -in general 17 concerned employees and reported or attempted violent h 18 activity? And- -- that's one component. The other i: 19 component is have you -- or have you asked employees, ir 20 and do you think you should ask employees, whether they o
< 21 have conceived in their mind engaging in some kind of I
g 22 violent retaliatory action without actually carrying it b 23 through, just to get an_ idea of the extent 6f the 24 chilling effect? POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
115 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () AUGUST 12, 1997 1 MS. GARDE: First of all, the definition 2 that you' ascribe to chilling effect in the description 3 that you just gave, it seems to me that what you're 4 talking about really is more reverse chilling effect 5 where you're saying has -- is management or people at 6 the staff chilled by. the potential acts of disgruntled 7 employees? Is that what you're asking me? 8 MR. FROMER: No. No. 9 MS. GARDE: Okay. You're -- 10 MR. FROMER: What I'm asking you is g 11 whether employees are Jo chilled and feel so frustrated n 12 -- 13 MS. GARDE: That they will act 14 violently? 15 MR. FROMER: That they will conceive and 16 perhaps carry out violent activity. 17 MS. GARDE: We did not pursue Lh our
!a 18 questionnaire a question in which we asked people, "Are
! 19 you so chilled you'll resort to physical or violent ie 20 acts?" Nor have we looked at the Security files where O
= 21 the Security Department presumably may have files on g' 22 people that they believe may act -- engage in criminal l 23 violent activities because I don't think that's our 24 job. I mean our job has been -- and I think we have O
~
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
116 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
- O ^uousr 12 1992 1 looked at, in the context of the Employee Concerns file 2 reviews that we did -- wa looked at all 92 files --
3 whether or not any of those individuals had a basis for 4 their concern that was obvious on the face of the file 5 or whether it was some kind of frivolous, motivated by 6 animus toward the company. All right? 7 We found, I think, one file that we felt 8 looked like it had been motivated by an employee who 9 was simply angry that he was terminated. We looked at 10 that file. That employee is not gone. And I believe g 11 that file was one we did not think was adequately 12 resolved and asked the company to re-look at. 13 In terms of that whole other piece of 14 the puzzle, _w e're not psychologists. We're not 15 psychiatrists. And it's a question that we did not -- 16 I don't think we even discussed or considered asking. 17 And I'm not sure it would have been of value. 18 MR. FROMER: Well, I have to take issue , 19 with you on that. I think it is a very important 20 question because when you're talking about chilling o - 21 effect, since you're engaged in a quantification i 22 process, which E is what you'rc doing -- because pretty s l- 23 much everyone knows in the general public what's been 24 going on at Millstone for years. You're just p POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
( 117 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () AUGUST 12, 1997 1 quantifying it. I think you need to quantify the 2 different levels of chilling effect in terms of what 3 people are thinking about. And you're not going to 4 know what they're thinking about in terms of taking any 5 action because they're angry, frustrated, elisgruntled 6 or whatever have you. 7 I mean all you have to do is look at the 8 postal service as a classic 3xample of potential 9 chilling effects and their impacts. And I know they 10 have a security system at NU. And I don't know the , 11 magnitude, the extent or wherewithal, what they do and 12 what they look at and so forth and so on. (~')s 13 But I definitely think it's something 14 that you may want to give serious consideration to 15 exploring. 16 MS. GARDE: I think we will give serious 17 consideration and we will discuss that; that is looking I 18 at the Security Department files in terms of whether or
- 19 not they have kept that kind of data so we could
.l t 20 measure whether or not there are former employees 0
- 21 who've had that degree of anger that it has resulted in l
@ 22 vicient behavior. I think that's a valid point. I
$ 23 don't think we thought about that before. And I think 24 we will discuss and consider that.
A L) POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 _a
118 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
-( )n AUGUST 12,~ 1997 1 I'do want to say that in the-follow-ups 2 that-we did -- that is, we did these interviews one on-3 one and when people said there was a chilling effect, 4 we did follow and pursue that line with the people that 5 we. were talking to. And. there -was, you know,
[
.6 frustration. There was some anger. There was_some
[ 7 people who were depressed about that. None of it rose l L -8 to the level that we felt that we needed to, quote, 1 9 " refer this matter to Security."
-10 Where things came up that we felt needed R 11 some kind of immediate referral, we discussed that 12 among ourselves and made a decision --
{ y-13 MR. FROMER: But sometimes in those 14 areas, unless you ask questions, people- are not going 15 to volunteer an answer. 16 .Now, one of the other things that kind. 17 of is mind-boggling to me and I'm wondering if it's l- 18 mind-boggling to you -- and the reason I ask this is I --
-19 because one of the problems that you've identified.is a 20 failure to comply with ECP procedures, the ECP manual.
- O
*- 21 Now, doesn't it seem strange to you that
.g-
}l 22 you have a retired Admiral, you have retired military
! 23 officers, some or all of whom most probably were 24 involved in some aspect of court-martial disciplinary POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
)
119 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS AUGUST 12, 1997 1 procedures, non-judicial disciplinary procedures and so 2 forth and_so on, people who have an understanding, an 3 ' awareness of procedure and the importance of procedure? 4 And here is an instance where they just are becoming -- 5 they're either stupid or they are deliberately engaged 6 in some kind of -- some type of_ conspiracy to steam-7 _ roll the public and the Commission. 8 Does it seem strange to you that these 9 type of people are not pushing, promoting, without your 10 even investigation, procedure, procedure, procedure, -l 1 11 because they're raised,-indoctrined, brought up and .{ 12 conditioned in the military to do exactly that? 13 MS. GARDE: Okay. First of all, I think 14 your characterization of the people involved with the 15 ECP program, some of which who are here this evening, , 16 -is somewhat unfair. I don't -- I haven't met a single 17 person within the ECP program- that is'not a person I 18 would consider an honorable human being who is trying ~-
-19 to do a good job to help employees who are in trouble.
-20 Not a single one. They care about their job. It was
.- o .
- 21 very hurtful to a lot-of them, the negative comments
_l; -
- g -22 that we gave in- our report. I' stand behind those k _
.23 findings. But I . don't think any of those things were 24 an evil conspiracy by bad people to deceive the public.
O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
-120 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS h-. AUGUST 12,--1997 1 -I think that the company- made !sotre 2 decisions ~about choosing people who may not-have had --
3 who had military background- versus an ECP cottanercial-4 nuclear background and maybe didn't.'know exactly..some,
- S of the things that they were getting.into. And that's
-6 part of our job that.we've. pointed out. And it slowed-
'7 them.down. And it's:been-a problem for them.
8 But.in the context in which you put it,
'9 that. is, " complying with the procedural manual, they-
-10 knew better and, therefore, it'must be deliberate", let' g 11 me make one point. First of'all, it's not a procedure.
12 The Employee Manual-. is Concerns a program manual
'13 written to implement a program. -It's not one that has 14 the procedural ' compliance of a site: procedure. They 15 can change-the program manual. It's how they're going 16 to do their program.
17 Second, it was new. It was only on the-T - - 18 -street for about two= months when we-looked at the files
- . 19 that were~done underneath that program. And there
.j-ie 20 hasn't -- there-hadn't been a lot of training. So you O~
.- 21 had a lot of people who had worked in those }~
-- g 22 departments. Then you have contractors who've come in -l 23 from other ECP programs that did things differently at 24 other sites. And so you had everybody kind of doing POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
121 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS dg AUGUST 12, 1997 1 their investigations differently their-own way. 2 We evaluated -the new files to the 3 program and we identified that there was a lack of 4 discipline. It was more end product-driven; that is, 5 somebody has a problem, they did it, then they, you 6 know, wrote the file around that resolution. That 7 doesn't mean there was an evil conspiracy by bad people 8 who are trying to deceive the public about what is 9 being done out there. 10 And if that is how you interpreted those
- g. 11 actions from anything we said, that would be incorrect. ,
Q U 12 MR. FROMER: I interpreted that there 13 was a procedure and a manual as to how to conduct 14 investigations, of which military officers throughout 15 their entire military career have been imminently 16 involved in. And, yet, in a situation where procedure, 17 due process of law is most important in a resolution of I 18 a case, and given that there are procedures to do that, t: 19 that has not occurred. That just is mind-boggling to 20 me. I'm sure that if they were in the military and did 0
< 21 that, the consequences would be quite detrimental.
3 g 22 MS, GARDE: And if this was that type of
'l 23 program, that may be a valid observation. But it 24 isn't. This is a program manual on how to do an ECP POST REPORTING SERVICE HAF EN, CT (800) 262-4102
122 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS ()._ AUGUST 12, 1997 1 investigation from beginning to end. And it does not 2 have the degree of certainty. It is not a court of 3 justice. These people are not making, nor-are they 4 empowered to make, those type of judicial decisions. 5 They're collecting evidence. They're 6 collecting data. They're doing proper interviews. 7 They're putting all of that in a file. And then 8 management looks at that file. And then you begin to 9 work off the technical issues and you begin to work off 10 the retaliation issues. _c-; not court of law. 2 11 It should be accurate. It should be K {) 12 documented. It should be -- you should be able to pull 13 the file, read it and understand how you got from A to 14 Z. And we were very disappointed that when we looked 15 at those files, the new files, the files done under the 16 program that was issued April 15, they weren't done 17 according to that. I hope when we go back and look at 18 them, they'll match. f f 19 MR. FROMER: Well, I -- again -- and I 1 20 e don't want to belabor the point. But I strongly feel o
. 21 that these are people who have had training in this k
g 22 area. The leaders, the so-called leaders, are not l 23 . leaders. 24 Now, the thing is I think -- and I've k POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 V
n 123 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
.( )- AUGUST 12, 1997 1 mentioned this before .and I'll mention it again. I.
2 think-it's very important'that the ECP program includes 3 'some kind of moot training, moot trial training, and 4 that these people also have training. before State and l 5 perhaps even ' Federal administrative agencies to get 6 indoctrinated, if nothing else -- and I'm talking the 7 -staff of the ECP program, not the leaders, although it E 8 would be good. for the leaders -- so -that they 9 understand that, more important than anything else, due 4 10 process is of ultimate importance. 11 MS. GARDE: Let. me just say something j ) 12 about the contract inspectors. Most of the contract 13 inspectors that they have brought in to help mentor the 14 NU people are people that have very experienced 15 . backgrounds in. Employee Concerns Programs and have been 16 through trial by fire in cases on- the stand. The ' 17 person who is now the Director of Investigations I have I 18 deposed and cross examined on the other side in several u 19 trials. And I-will tell you, he's an honorable man.
'1 t 20 He does a good job. And I've never defeated him. Not .0 .- 21 -because I haven't tried.
ll ig 22 MR. FROMER: Okay. Well, that's
- l 23 encouraging. '
24 Now, the next question is don't you ! O -POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
._ _- . _ , . . . . _ _ . . . _~ . . . _ . _. _._.- . . .. _ _. _ _ . _
124
-e
-HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS-
- j )--- AUGUST 12, 1997 l -1 think, based-oon this disciplinary situation, that it' l
- 2 would be a_ good idea or perhaps you're considering
'l recommending --= and perhaps the NRC would support you V
4 on-this or initiate it on their own -- that NU come up 5 with an adversefaction procedure so that they don't put
- - 6 .the cart before the horse?
4 l- 7 MS. GARDE: I don't understand what 8 adverse action procedure -- jl 9 MR. FROMER: Adverse action procedure.is 10 normally under the -- under the -- E .11 MS. GARDE: You mean like a disciplinary
'O 12 action?
13 MR. FROMER: Well, yeah. Under the 14 Civil Service Reform'Act, if you go into that, are 15 familiar it, there'is a procedure before-they can-16 remove anyonel for disciplinary-action. And it's laid
'17 out. And if that procedure is not followed,'whoever is 18 removed is reinstated.
I 19 And my question to you is, perhaps even
,:20 looking at the Civil Service Reform Act, you may want
'O
< 21 fto recommend to NU that they; engage in such a procedure 1_
} so '
22 that they have some form of. due process. of law l: 23 instead of trying to now correct a situation by- l 24 justifying their disciplinary action, which is not due POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
-.m a*-r* s m, 125 73 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS is,j AUGUST 12, 1997 1 procesc of law.
2 MS. GARDE: All right. I think it has 3 been raised a couple of times or people from NU this 4 evening who have heard the comments about looking at 5 their disciplinary procedure -- I-assume they are doing 6 that and will consider to do that. I would never 7 recommend any company follow the Civil Service Reform 8 Act because -- 9 MR. FROMER: Or some procedure. 10 MS. GARDE: It's that thick.
- 11 MR. FROMER: Well --
("N 12 MS. GARDE: It doesn't work. And Q 13 whistleblowers within the government just get moved to 14 the-basement. I mean it isn't -- 15 MR. FROMER: The point I'm trying to 16 make is a procedure rather than no procedure. 17 MS. GARDE: Right.
! 18 MR. FROMER: That's the point. Okay?
19 And one final comment. This is an area 20 that's been brought up about resolutions of ECP, that O
- 21 they have a plan for resolving issues. If I'm not b
E 22 correct - - but is part of their plan for resolving 5
$' 23 issues satisfactory closure of those issues?
24 MS. GARDE: Right. O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
126 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS (_c) - AUGUST 12, 1997 1 M2. FROMER: All right. Thank you. 2 MS GARDE: Okay. 3 MR. FROMER: Do you want me to sign my 4 name? 5 MR. LANNING: Please. Yes. 6 Charlie? 7 Okay. We still have agenda item we want 8 to cover tonight. And we also want to cover -- have an 9 opportunity for general. questions and answers. 10 MR. CHARLES LUXTON: Okay. I'm Charlie 11 Luxton from Waterford. I'm a member of the CRC. And I { 12 guess I'm here tonight on behalf of my kids. I just j {"} 13 wanted to make this question to John Beck because I was 14 at the July-22 meeting and your report was -- was full 15 of praise.for NU, it sounded like. -The flag's flying 16 in the right direction and -- I think I was ready to 17 salute Bruce Kenyon and buy stock in the company again k 18 and stuff like that. I 19
- But you also told my wife that if you f
r 20 had to grade NU at that present time, you would have O
- 21 given them an "F". Can you explain that?
3-22 MR. BECK: I don't remember having said l
'b 23 I'd give an NU an "F". I just don't remember the 24 context in which I said that. I can think of some w Q POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
' 127 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () f, AUGUST 12, 1997 1 areas where they don't deserve a very high grade at 2 that time. And we talked about a lot of that. You 3 know, it's interesting that your observation was that 4 it was just a, you know, very praiseworthy presentation 5 as far as NU's concerned because there was a lot of 6 information that came out of the structured interviews 7 that certainly doesn't fit that category. 8 You know, the fact that I chose the 9 words that "The flag seemed to be blowing the right 10 direction" was immediately followed by a comment, "But R 11 don't get too confident about what these average 8 12 numbers say, even though they do say that" -- and every (-}- s_ 13 one of them does. You know, we looked at it very 14 carefully. And there wasn't a single response -- the 15 numbers were very small -- that didn't reflect an 16 improvement in the eyes of the people who answered the 17 questions. And that's all we were reporting back, not
!! 18 what we thought, but what people.said in response to 19 our questions.
b r 20 So we reflected what that sample of the o
< 21 work force at Millstone had to say in response to the 8
5 22 questions that we asked them. It wasn't our opinion, s l 23 It was what they said. 24 It's important that management get the
/
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
128 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
-( ), AUGUST-12,'1997-1 . message --Land I think they did -- that they've_ got;a-
- ~2 lot of work to do dealing with areas where the averages-3 did not'tell the whole story. And1that's what we're'so 4 intent; on doing, is to make sure that that. message was
( -5 . received and~is acted on. Because unless it is, 6 certainly those l average numbers aren't going to be 7 adequate, in our opinion. 8 MR. LUXTON: Okay. Well, I did very
- 9 much get Lthat impression that your judgment :was i 10 glowing. And I just- want to caution you because _I know
_11 that;just recently
}{ Northeast Utilities management: has-12 used out of~ context some of your statements to. make
{ 13 themselves sound, .what I think, much better-than.they.
-14 ought-to-sound.
15 Now,. the next- question is for Billie. 16 Because I think you- heard also.-- I heard also at the 17 same meeting regarding the' ECP program you mentioned l_ E18 something about- the files- and the record-keeping and 19 how the-29 files had been classified as closed. Is q i
.)r-20 that correct?'
<o,-.,
- c. 21 MS. GARDE: Resolved or closed.
I 22 MR. LUXTON: Resolved or closed. But {-
-l 23 when you went -to investigate or went to look in the 24 files, the files were either empty cn the documentation POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
129 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS _(); -AUGUST 12,-1997-1 wasn't there-that substantiated that classification. 2 I don't claim Eto understand all the l 3 ' stuff that goes on in'these meetings._ You know. But 4 that's-something that caught my notice because it just 5 seemed so blatant. How does1that happen?' How is that 6 possible that a file could be -- I mean were they 7 actually empty?- Is that -- 8 MS. GARDE: There were some files in the L 9 newer batch that virtually-just had like two or- three 10 pieces of paper in them- and not anything further. I 11 can't tell you that. those were necessarily the-files 12 that were resolved or closed. But they were woefully
)
13 deficient. And I was very disappointed to see that.
-14 And we told them that.
15 And the :other picture, that- is, the 16 :other-part of your question, how could it-be that files -
.17 were resolved or closed --
I. 18 .MR. LUXTON: -Well, how -- who -- I mean J
-g-19 how do they get-labeled that it's -- that this issue's g--
t 20 a done deal and, in fact, there's no verification? How O. -
.- 21 -- who does that? Who is responsible?
ll-
.I; 22 -MS. GARDE: Well, it happens within- the l 23 department. I mean it happens within the ECP 24 Department. And there-has -been a variety of processes O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 ,
130 73 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
- .vI AUGUST 12, 1997 1 by which they have resolved closed files. For a while, 2 there was a panel. For a while, that was assigned to 3 one person. One of the explanations was that it was 4 assigned to one person and that person was overloaded 5 and that, in fact, there was information that should 6 have been in the file that, had it been in the file, 7 would have resolved that file.
8 And one example after -- you know, after 9 that meeting, we were shown one example where that's 10 true. If those documents had been in the file, it .E 11 would have been resolved. But the file on its face, K 12 you know, you just couldn't justify that it was (J3-13 resolved. There was nothing to look at to see. 14 And some -- that's easy. Some of them 15 were much more complicated. There were great big, 16 thick files where a tremendous amount of resources had i 17 been put it in and I had to get people that would --
! 18 you know, from our Little Harbor Consultants that had
>- 19 technical background to come over and, you know, look lr 20 over the technical issues. And Bob Englemeyer who was O-
. 21 the other consultant that worked on this project, we b
,g 22 did this together. So we didn't reach any conclusion l 23 on a file by ourselves. If I thought it didn't look 24 right, he'd review it. And we ended up all reviewin3 O O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
131 7- _ HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS ( j , AUGUST 12, 1997 1 all the files. And some of them were just not 2 supportable. Even after a great big fact-finding 3 determination, there wasn't something in it that said 4 this is -- this is the end of this issue. 5 Semetimes we were able to go out into 6 the plant and find it ourselves. So then we knew if 7 this piece of paper was in there, it should be closed. 8 And sometimes we went out into the plant to find it and 9 we couldn't find it. I 10 MR. LUXTON: Okay. But how significant 11 is this sort of mishandling of files to the program 12 itself? (^)T u 13 MS GARDE: Significant enough that we 14 told them they need to go back and re-look at all of 15 those. If we didn't think it was significant, we 16 wouldn't have said that. 17 MR. LUXTON: And there were 29 -- have I 18 they been now -- is that issue resolved -- 19 MS, GARDE: We have not re-looked at the b 20 r files. So we don't -- O
. 21 MR. LUXTON: Is that an issue that they
.b
} 22 have to resolve before restart?
} 23 MS. GARDE: It would be very imprudent 24 if we go back and find the same problem. That would be O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 1
~ I
i 132 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS (3f AUGUST 12, 1997 1 a big problem. 2 MR. LUXTON: Okay. And when do you do 3 that? When will you be looking at that? 4 MS. GARDE: We haven't scheduled that 5 re-look yet. I would anticipate it will be within the 6 next month, month to six weeks. But I don't know that 7 for sure and we haven't made that schedule 8 determination. 9 MR. LUXTON: Okay. And just another -- 10 I don't know if this is a question that you can answer. R 11 But I mean in light of the fact that this is the way R (~N 12 record-keeping is done in the ECP program, is it not
\_)
13 illogical to think that that might be the way record-14 keeping is done in other departments? 15 MS. GARDE: I will tell you that I had a 16 discussion today with another Little Harbor consultant 17 that is working on the corrective action isaue in which
-l 18 we had kind of a transfer of information so that he had 19 the benefit of all of what we observed in that to carry h 20 r forward into what their corrective action effort is, to O. . 21 make sure that all the things that we found in our k )3 22 effort they have -- they also consider and look at in l 23 the corrective action area. So by the time they finish 24 that piece, I think that there will be a continuity of POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 1
133 AUdUT 1 review of that concern.
-- 2 .MR LUXTON: Okay. And I'm not sure if 3 'you- can comment on this. But it has to- do with the 4 recent- disciplining. action' by' Northeast -Utilities 5 management'against its-own training staff. And can you
-6 x comment on how- that might have contributed to -an l-7 overall chilling effect in the plant?
8 MS. GARDE: Well, any time you have some L 9 kind of dramatic personnel type action -- and this was i 10 a dramatic personnel action -- there is going to be an R. W 11 effect-on the work force as a-result of that action. ~!
-. 12 MR. LUXTON: Now, you got some calls-on 13 --
14 MS. GARDE: We got some calls-on that. 15 And we are investigating that. And we- are going to 16 determine what=the company is doing to ensure that they. 17 make a mid-course correcticn so-that those people who
-!. 18 -may have been chilled ~ by that incident, for whatever
,j' 19 ' reason, are assured that if they're doing their job and L20 they're doing their job in an accountable manner, they
'O-
. . :21 are free to raise safety concerns and it doesn't have 1
} 22 an effect of that.
l- 23 I can't tell you that we've gotten very 24 f ar on that because we've just started. collecting the POST REPORTINC SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
134
=
HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS f__ AUGUST 12, 1997 1 data and I, as you - know,_just got back being gone two 2 weeks. But John and John have pursued- and have
-3 collected a-lot of that information. And we're going-
=4 -to be looking at it. But that's the piece of it that 5 we're looking at. We're not looking at it to determine 6 whether or -not those decisions were valid. We're
- 7 determining on can the company figure out what to do to
- 8 keep things on an even keel, i
i 9 MR. LUXTON: Okay. So we'll be hearing 10 about that in the near future. i
? ^R 11 MS. GARDE: Yes.
K 12 MR. LUXTON: Now, the last- question is 4}_ 13 about-your. Cata. You have accumulated lots' of data. 14 And it seems to me that maybe that data is holding some 15 secrets that haven't been asked or can it be 16 _reconfigured.- Can it come up with other. kinds of,-I-17 don't know, information that will-be revealing to you
! 18 and to me as a resident, nearby resident?
19 MR. BECK: To the extent that you've got
!r 20 a question that we can be responsive to by slicing or -- O e H21 dicing the data in a different way, we'd certainly be i g _-
g 22 willing-to entertain questions of that type.
.l! 23 MR. LUXTON: Do you have plans now to do 24 that or are you confident --
O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
. . . - -. .. . - . . . . . . - . .- -- -- ..~. . .. - - - -
I 135 e 1 l HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS = AUGUST 12,--1997 1 MS. GARDE: Well, we have been looking. l -2 .at it~within -- T 3 . MR '. BECK: Yes.- l As. questions have 4 -arisen-in our minds --
-5 MR. LUXTON: You go back?-
6 .MR. BECK: - -we've done1that. And we 7 1can do it. We've-got the data. captured in a relational' 8 ~ data baseLthat will allow you to query it from any. 9 particular angle. You know, if some good items.come 10 from whomever, we'll take a-look at it.
.E' 11 MR. LUXTON: Okay. Thank you.
R 12 -MR. GRIFFIN: The other thing that we're 13 doing is, not' just from the results of~the structured 14 -interviews, but the -ECP implementation and all the 11 5 other activities that we've conducted- 'to date, . we'reL 16 -kind of stepping back and looking at what'all' of that 17 information is telling us and. what.we need to do to I 18 refocus our efforts; going forward so that we're looking
-g
-19 on a narrower band _ on the -type of things that
- l't 20 specifically we believe need -to be fixed with this O.
-< '21 program rather than just' continuing in .a total broad-22 brush-thing. So we're in the process- over the next. }
[l 23 several days of adjusting our anticipated activities to 24 really get the proper focus based on things that the POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
-136 -- ( -
AU U T - 1 work ' force, as well as our own investigations, have 2 told us. 3 MR. LUXTON: .Okay. Sounds good. Thank l.. 4 you. 5 MR. LANNING: Okay. Mr. GenefImbro now
-6 will give us a summary of Employee Concerns. .[
7 MR. GERRY REARDON: Gerry Reardon, I
-Newington,
-8 _ Connecticut. I also work at Millstone ;
I 9 _ nuclear power station. And I work in a group-that 11 0 ._ evaluates nuclear safety issues for :the entire
.R: 11 Millstone site, Connecticut Yankee and Seabrook. I R:
12 Now,.I've made comments in-the past to
-13 -the NRC and they just generally rebut. I've also made 14 comments to my.NU nuclear management. And in general 15 they argue and act:like a bunch of butts. =So before- .
16 ' making a comment to Little Harbor, I'd like to ask you' 17 to do.something relatively unique in the nuclear power l: 18 business. And that's just listen. ' 4 19 I participated in all- four surveys, 1~ 20 r structured interviews, call _them what you will, that
.O^ ..- 21 have been recently held. Two were held by- Little ~g: [( 22 ' Harbor, two by NU. And .on my own scale of' rating, I l :23 would rate them on a range from unimpressive to-24 downright crooked.
O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 '
137
,S- HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS i
s_). AUGUST 12, 1997 1 Now, neither of Little Harbor's surveys 2 I feel were crooked. However, I have to share with you 3 one funny aspect'of one of your structured interviews. 4 I was asked to contact Candy Marion to get her insight 5 on the Employee Concerns Program and that sht would be 6 able to convince me that the Employee Concerns Program 7 was functioning okay. And I was a little bewildered by 8 that, especially once I heard the results from that 9 particular survey. 10 So maybe I need to amplify on one R- 11 comment made by the general public this evening. And K (~3 12 that's the comment that was made refarring to the
'w/
13 Hannon report. And of all the reports that have been
-14 made in the past, I hold the Hannon report personally 15 one of -- I feel was one of the better ones. So 16 perhaps you need to talk to Mr. Hannon and maybe change 17 your approach to assessing the culture at NU nuclear I 18 because I feel none of the surveys really captured the 5
f 19 true feelings of what's going on out there. And i
.r 20 thece's a myriad of reasoas. If you want, I can share O
< 21 them with you at some other time.
I g 22 The second point I wish to amplify that l 23 has already been mentioned by the public tonight, over 24 the past several years there have been many, many (~T POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l j
138 f- HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS (_3) AUGUST 12, 1997 1 internal, external reports, surveys, everything under 2 the sun, that clearly indicates that there has been no 3 NU nuclear management collective ethic. And I think 4 the only people who can argue that today is NU s .: lear 5 management and their lawyers. - 6 But I also have to point out to you that 7 over the past 10 years, in my experience it has only j 8 been singular employees - we call them whistleblowers 9 -- who have stepped forward and told us the truth and 10 have made the true or initiated the true changes in
,a[ 11 this industry. And all us employees stood by and
(')' (_ 12 watched them one by one be drummed out of the industry. 13 So I must conclude to you that there has been no 14 employee collective ethic at NU nuclear, either. 15 So I must ask you and leave you this 16 final comment. If there is no collective ethic at 17 Northeast Utilities, who the heck are you interviewing
'! 18 or surveying for qualitative results of any meaning?
19 Thank you for listening. Ie 20 (Applause) O
. 21 MR. LANNING: Okay. We'll now move into b
g 22 a summary Hof the Independent Corrective Action s l 23 Verification Process. Mr. Imbro? 24 Thanks. Great job. POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
139 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS j (-)c . AUGUST 12, 1997 1 (Interruption in taping-while changing tape) 2 MR. EUGENE IMBRO: -- a little bit about ,
-- 3 the status of the ICAVP for both Unit 2 -and Unit- 3.
4 ~Maybe I'll begin first with starting with Unit 2. 5 Unit 2 is -- Unit 2- completed the CMP, l 6 the first phase of-CMP for the Group 1 systems on July 7 16. .And NRC subsequently selected two systems, two 8 . sets- of systems for Parsons to review. And those 9 systems are the high-pressure safety injection and L 10 refueling water storage tank and, also, the peak water L t i! 11 system and (indiscernible) storage tank. So Parsons'
-g-12 reviews are currently ongoing.
(~)%
-13 I believe to date-they have issued _three 14 DR's. I think they're on the -- they should be on the
- 15 -Internet by now. And those of you who will get hard li6 copies, you should --Lif you haven't gotten them yet, 17 please let us know and we'll make sure 'that you get 18 them.
72 19 NRC is planning a two-week
-jt .
;f 20 implementation inspection of Parsons, the week of O
<. -21 August 25 and then the Labor- Day week. It's two weeks !
-l:
{ 22 back to back. And the purpose of the implementation --
- $- 23 this is an implementation inspection.
24 The purpose of the implementation O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
140 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS (7-)s AUGUST 12, 1997 o 1 inspection is twofold. The first purpose is to assure 2 ourselves that Parsons is implementing the audit plan 3 that we approved. And the second purpose is to make 4 sure that the technical reviews they do are 5 comprehensive and they are actually. finding problems if 6 they exist. So that -- that's the procese we've used 7 and are using with Sargent & Lundy. It's the identical 8 process for both. l 9 We heard today that Unit 2 expects to l l 10 complete CMP for all 61 Group 1 and Group 2 systems 11 approximately, I think, on September 15 -- September (~T 12 13, depending on the -- who you listen to. But, in any
.'w) 13 case, at the time that the Unit 2 CMP is completed, we 14 will-have the same process as we did on Unit 3 where 15 NEAC will be selecting the balance of the systems from 16 a set of systems that are pre-screened by NRC. We 17 would anticipate if Unit 2 holds to their sche 0v.e, ! 18 that that would happen at the September meeting of i-19 NEAC, which I believe is the 18th, if I'm not mistaken.
Ir 20 So that pretty much summarizes where we O
< 21 are with Unit 2.
b g 22 For Unit 3, at the last NEAC meeting l 23 additional systems were selected by NEAC in the process 24 I just outlined. Systems were selected by () POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4 I 1 l
.smses
- f 141 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O ^uoust 12 1992 1 Representative Stillman and Senator Peters. Actually, 2 the number of systems selected was an additi'nal 11.
3 So that would bring the total number of systems being 4 reviewed on Unit 3 to 15 out of 88 systems. 5 We also have -- by the way, tomorrow at 6 1:00 in the Training Center there's going to be a 7 couple -- the observable meeting with -- between - 8 ourselves, Sargent & Lundy and Northeast to have 9 Sargent & Lundy present the boundaries of the review 10 for the systems that were selected. So you're all 11 invited to attend that. { 12 As of - -at present, Sargent & Lundy has {} 13 issued six discrepancy reports. As I understand it, 14 there are a number more that are in process and will be 15 out soon. And those also will be available via the 16 Internet or hard copy at CRC. 17 We are -- we also have conducted an I 16 implementation inspection at Sargent & Lundy. And I 19 we're doing that in two phases. We did one week in 20 August and we'll go back again -- and that was more of O
< 21 a -- that was more of a process look. They hadn't --
I g 22 Sargent & Lundy hadn't yet reviewed a Ir.rge number of l 23 calculations related to the first two systems. So we 24 plan to go back to Sargent & Lundy again the week of O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT -(800) 262-4102
~
142 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS l AUGUST 12, 1997 1 September 15. And that's in Chicago. And, again, to 2 assess -- to assess the thoroughness of the technical 3 adequacy in terms of their reviews. 4 So that's pretty much of a thumbnail of 5 where, we are on -- where we are on ICAVP. We also -- 6 there was a public meeting this morning at 9:00 also in 7 the Training Center where both Sargent & Lundy and 8 Parsons presented status of the ICAVP, where they are 9 with their respective organizations on their reviews. 10 It would appear that schedules for Unit g 11 3 and Unit 2, I suppose, are challenged. I think both 12 companies are going to try to adhere to the schedules, 13 but I think they recognize that they may have to hire 14 additional staff or e2se lengthen the review period. 15 And I think that's still under review and there is no - 16 - no definitive word yet as te whether or not the 17 schedules will be extended. l 18 But suffice it to say that Sargent & ,I
; 19 Lundy needs to do and Parsons needs to do the review 20 that we think is appropriate to satisfy the order. And O . 21 they are not being driven by licensee's desire to I
j 22 restart on the 16th of December or have the Commission l 23 meet on the 16th of December for Unit 3. So they need i 24 to do what they need to do and they have to satisfy us POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
i~ ' 143 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () AUGUST 12, 1997 l J j, 1 and satisfy -- satisfy the ICAVP order. 4 2 So I think that -- that's really all I ) 3 had to ray. If there are any questions -- 7 ' l 4 MR . L1WNING: Don? ' i i 5 MR. DELCORE: Don Delcore,. Uncasville. -I l-4 6 I--don't think I need to re-sign it, but maybe I ch) . ] ; [ 7 And:if I do, I'll be glad to accommodate you for the . s 8 new' agenda, f 9 MR. LANNING: Once is fine. [ i ! 10 MR. DELCORE: I've serin six DR's. And t g 11 my understanding is that there are t,1ght , six of which i 3
- 12 have been processed. But then I read the transcript 13 and found that there really are 30 DR's total. And I'd l
14 like to address a couple of questions there. I s . : l 15 First of all, wht; I've. read from what 1
- 16 was presented at the last ICAVP update -- I didn't see i 17 a category or, let's.say, an assignment of the level of I 18 what those were. So I haven't seen that. And I'm kind i LL
'- 19 of concerned that we're not going to see those. And I
- j_ : t i .. f - 20 think we need to have a handle on what you guys assess
- .o o 21 them at. So that -- you know, you can take it_~ as a 7 l ->
22 comment or tell. me you're going to change that or i Es 23 whatever you're t 7ing to do.. I really don't know -- , i . 24 MR. IMBRO: I was waiting for more --
)
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t 144 ! HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS l q_, AUGUST 12, 1997 l l 1 more question. t 2 MR. DELCORE: Okay. 3 MR. IMBRO: Two issues. The number of 4 DR's, there's six DR's that came out of the Sargent &
- 5 Lundy program review and that was out of a review of 6 NU's configuration management process, procedures.
7 There are an additional two DR's that Sargent & Lundy 8 is preparing in that -- on that subject, configuration 9 management procedures. They have indicated -- I think 5 10 they indicated at the Commission meeting that -- I g 11 don't know if 30 is the right number. But a large 12 number of DR's are in process. And as soon as they go {^) 13 through their internal review process, those will be 14 available for us to look at and for the public to look 15 at. 16 In terms of significance level, if 17 you'll notice, Parsons has on theit DR sheets a l 18 significance level. And they're 1, 2, 3, 4. Sargent & I
- 19 Lundy is in the process of putting the significance >
20 level on the DR's and they will go back and update the O
< 21 six that are already, you know, issued and they will g 22 include that significance level on the remainder of the $ 23 DR's.
24 So, yes, you're right that they're not POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
145 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O avousr 12 1992 1 there yet. But they will be. 2 MR. DELCORE: Okay. The next question 3 really deals with -- I assume that what you just told 4 me was that all of them are a review of the l 5 configuration management procedural end of it right 6 now. 7 MR. IMBRO: Six. l 8 MR. DELCORE: Well, the six are. Okay. 9 What I glean from that, just reading them, that each 10 one of them was, in fact, a procedural issue, either -- 11 either the procedure was not correctly developed from 12 the license basis or there were procedural steps which 13 weren*t accomplished in the right sequence or there was 14 an improper review by Pork or in the case -- I think of 15 one that was a wrong determination of an intent or non-16 intent change. But all of them seem to be dealing with 17 either procedural compliance or procedural update I 18 program. Okay? Both of which we know to be 19 programmatic issues. 20 So I'm interected in your perspective of C
- 21 what -- whether you're now going to look at all 88 g 22 systems with regard to the procedural information now $ 23 that there appears to be a significant number in just 24 the few systems that you looked at, the two systems POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
146 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O auousr 12 1992 1 that you looked at. 2 MR. IMBRO: Well, I think it's too early 3 to determine. I mean I don't think that I would agree 4 with your characterization that six is a significant : 5 number. I mean it dwmed to me that when I've read the , 6 deficiencies, discq vceios, that they didn't seem very 7 significant. There were several that had to do -- 8 actually, where the procedure maybe had been in 9 violation or in contradicting the license basis. But, . 10 again, it didn't seem like those things, at least as 11 much as we know now, have caused the safety issues at 12 the plant. I'm not saying that procedural issues are 13 not important. They need to be addressed. But in and 14 of themselves, I don't think that just the six DR's we 15 have now would necessitate us to say, " Hey, you know, 16 we need to look at procedures for all 88 systems." But , 17 remember that they were focused -- Sargent & Lundy was 18 focusing on -- not necessarily the operating I, 19 procedures, at least for this review, but really the 20 procedures that the licensee will use from here forward O
= 21 to control the plant configuration. So --
I g 22 MR DELCORE: Okay. , 1.l 23 MR. IMBRO: I mean it's kind of a 24 limited -- POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
f 147 . HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS !
-O AUGUST 12, 1997 l 1 MR. IANNING: Don, you know we have ;
2 procedure quality adherence as a programmatic issue.
-3 MR.. DELCORE: I understand that.
4 MR. LANNING: And we're looking at ! 5 procedures, different kinds of procedures across the h t I 6 board. ! 7 MR. DELCORE: Well, can I try to put -- j
'8 what I really want to do is make an attempt here to ,
t 9 make you understand why I feel there's some depth or 1 10 some gravity to the fact that six -- six items have
! 11 come out immediately.
f; 12 If you try to put in perspective that 13 Northeast Utilities -- and I'm not trying to attack 14 them right now. What I'm really saying to_you is that ; 15 these guys spent a very concerted effort and a very, : 1 16 very long time reviewing 18 systems. Okay?. And then . 17 . Oversight in the line reviewed all of this. In 18 addition, they brought in, I guess, an engineering ; ,- 19 review group to.look at this ICAVP readiness from Unit ht '20 2, as I recall, and they scoured all of this. Okay? l- O , ,./ 21 Sargent & Lundy came inand, boom, we got six issues l
- g 22 -immediately. Okay?
l' 23 What I'm saying is it calls into 24 question not only the CMP review process, but it calls :
-h POST REPORTING SERVICE +
HAMDEN, CT (200) 262-4102 . l. _ _ [ _..- . u . , . _ . _ _ . , _ - _ . , _ . _ _ - . . - ,a ,_.~.. _ _ ._ _ _ _ . . .
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-148 '
U UST i 1 into the question the pervasive problem of procedure 2 - compliance and procedure : upgrade,.which we both know l 3 - has been going since 1989. Okay? 4 And what I'm saying to you is if there's l 5 ---if we allowed them that amount of time to review
- 6 simply :18' systems and we've come up with six issues ;
7 that quickly after an extensive review by NU, we need , 8 _ to go back and look at the rest of those systems. I 9 think that's a'very important issue. And I think-that i 10 that's why I believe the gravity here -- not only that. -i g 11 We also know it to be a programmatic issue. It's been ,
. 12 ongoing for-years.-
13 So, based on that, I'm very concerned ' 14 that that has not developed some other extensive' review 15 requirement-- that you've- put on Sargent & Lundy for 16 other safety-related, risk-significant and-combination 7 17 systems - So I'd like to get that point on the record.
'I - 18 And that's what I'm really trying to do here. Okay?
f
- 19 MR. IMBRO: We understand that. But, i
20 know you-know
, also,.I just wanted to add that -- and'I
- O
3 f 21 this, too -- that the ICAVP is a 'rather structured
- -[
22 process. Now, I believe that NU has responded- to the
}-
3 23 Sargent & Lundy discrepancies in terms of who needs to 0 - 24 review them and then there's got to be some corrective
- j. -
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149 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () 7, AUGUST 12, 1997 1 action on those. You know. We haven't gotten to where 2 you are yet. 3 MR. DELCORE: Yes. I understand that. 4 But corrective action is one issue. Yeah. We've 5 identified these six items and these six items have to 6 be done. 7 I have to tell you, Gene, in terms of 8 intent or non-intent changes, there have been issues 9 that I can document with the NRC all the way back to 10 1989 on whether or not Pork has properly ascertained 11 whether it was -- there was a 14-day requirement or not 12 a 14-day requirement. 13 So this is not a single issue. This is 14 a significant number of times of repeat issues. And it 15 should -- and it has to be addressed through all of 4 16 these other systems because there's obviously a problem 17 with Pork being able to deal with that. It's because l 18 it's such a long-term issue. And I don't want to
. 19 belabor it. But I think it's a very important issue.
It 20 MR. IMBRO: We understand. O
. 21 MR DELCORE: I get the sense, I really h
22 get the sense -- and even today, I guess I especially l 23 got the sense -- that from reading the transcript and 24 listening to today's discussions, that it looks like POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
150 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () AUGUST 12, 1997 1 the ICAVP is going to be extended. It looks like right 2 now something that was predicted to be the first week 3 in September for completion on Unit 3 appears to be at 4 least the first week in October for completion on Unit 5 3. 6 MR. IMBRO: That's right. 7 MR. DELCORE: And that was, I think, 8 explained by Mr. Ehrler and Sharper that that really 9 doesn't deal with any DR's. It really is absent DR's. 10 And that's what I read in the transcript. That's what g 11 he testified to the Commission. - 12 MR. IMBRO: I think what they were { 13 trying to say, if I can characterize at least how I 14 understood it, was that the process -- those dates were 15 optimistic dates based on a review which 16 (indiscernible) no additional problems. 17 MR. DELCORE: Yeah. I 18 MR. IMBRO: I mean clearly if there --
- 19 if they start to find a lot of problems, then we need 20 to do something. But even on that, then they need to O
. 21 get into a dialogue with NU about the extent of the i 22 problem, sg how they're going to resolve it. So that was l 23 a somewhat optimistic schedule.
24 MR. DELCORE: Yeah. But there seems to POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l l
151 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () AUGUST 12, 199'/ 1 be this reluctance to kind of indicate that -- and it 2 doesn't look to me -- I mean I don't know from all the 3 other issues -- and-I don't want to discuss them until 4 you get into that part of the agenda. And I don't know 5 that I can discuss that right now. It seems like we're i 6 talking only ICAVP. 7 MR. IMBRO: That's correct. 8 MR. DELCORE: We can't about today's 9 meeting yet. But just from the ICAVP aspect of it, it 10 doesn't appear that NU is honestly owning up to the
~R 11 fact that they're not going to make this plant ready R
,. (~ 12 for start-up September 30. I mean it doesn't -- it 13 doesn't appear that that's going to happen. 14 And what I'm concerned with here is 15 we're driving this whole thing around this schedule. 16 And I'm trying to figure out when you're going to have 17 -- when you guys as a review group and as individual I 18 inspectors and testers are going to make -- are going
; 19 to take -- set aside some time before this plant cranks 20 up to evaluate whether the CMP program works and 0
. 21 whether certain aspects of the findings, both from an l
g 22 ACR aspect and from a procedural aspect, whether all of l 23 their approach to correcting all these things is going 24 to be adequate. POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
153 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () AUGUST 12, 1997 1 I just don't see some time frame for 2 review. I see everybody rushing to get a Commission 3 vote by the 19th. That doesn't mean that I say you're 4 doing that. I say that's the feeling that I get 5 sitting in these meetings. I mean I think -- I looked 6 -- I read 147 pages of transcripts. And I've got to 7 tell you, the Commissioners were more interested in the 8 schedule than they were about anything else. 9 And when I sit in at these meetings, I l 10 recognize that a schedule is important because it g 11 controls resources and it controls people. And I r" 12 really recognize that. But that's all we're talking b) 13 about. 14 And when Shirley came and talked to us 15 August 6 of last year, a year ago, she talked about 16 resolution of issues and being sure that those issues 17 were taken care of. And it doesn't look -- it looks to I 18 me like we're way ahead of where we should be and the
- 19 cart is way the hell ahead of the horse right now on I
r 20 t.hese letting guys start up or even talking about ! o
. 21 starting'up.
b g 5 22 I mean from what I heard today and what l 23 I've been envisioning and what I saw in the report to 24 Shirley, I think maybe springtime may be where this POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
153 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS AUGUST 12, 1997 1 thing is going to start up. It isn't going to start up 2 this year. I could be wrong. I hope I'm wrong. I 3 hope these people don't go bankrupt. But they're not 4 looking good. 5 (Applause) 6 MR. LANNING: Joe? 7 MR. JOE BESADE: Hi, I'm Joe Besade 8 from Waterford. And I have a couple of questions. At 4 9 approximately 4:09 today at the last meeting at 10 Millstone, NU came forward and said there was 11 unlicensed people working on repairs. And I wanted to
'} 12 13 be informed updates.
on what and where and which of these 14 MR. IMBRO: Well, we're trying to limit 15 this to ICAVP in this part of the discussion. 16 MR. LANNING: We're going to have 17 general questions later, I 18 MR. IMBRO: I mean if there's no one I
; 19 else that wants to ask questions on ICAVP, then please 20 go ahead. I don't see anybody. So please --
O o 21 MR. BESADE: Well, do you want to answur i g 22 my question on --
'b 23 MR. IMBRO: Yes.
24 MR. LANNING: I'm not sure that I heard POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
154 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O ^uoust 12 1997 1 today that there were unlicensed people working 2 maintenance activities at Millstone. 3 MR. BESADE: I -- that was just what I 4 caught at 4:09 P.M. I made the note. In other words, 5 it was a Northeast -- it might even have been Mr. Ed 6 Morgan under his presentation. But it was very brief. 7 In other words, it didn't even last 30 seconds. And I 8 thought maybe you people were informed on it. 9 MR. LANNING: No. I didn't -- I don't-10 recollect. R 11 MR. BESADE: Well, then you'll have to 8 12 go back on the film that's furnished by Northeast. 13 MR. LANNING: Okay. 14 MR. BESADE: My second item is also I 15 wish the CRC would be informed of all meetings by phone 16 if a notice can't be in our local newspapers. I'm 17 ' upset I was not present to film the 9:00 meeting at I 18 Millstone this morning. And I also talked to you I-19 briefly, that I wish you to continue with putting. the
-lr 20 notices in the paper. At one time you wished to drop o < 21 them. But I think for the public's sake, we have to be I
g 22 informed as well as can be expected. l 23 Thank you. ! 24 MR. IMBRO: I was going to say if you're I: POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
,, r n
l 155 i HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS !l ) AUGUST 12, 1997 1 not on the distribution -- we can do that or we can 2 phone you or something like that. That's not a 3 problem. We'd accept that, certainly. 4 MR. BESADE: You have -- 5 MR. LANNING: I think we do that l 6 generally. We generally call the CRC and let them know l 7 of forthcoming meetings. Right, Diane? l 8 MS. SCULLY: Generally. l 9 MR. LANNING: Generally. Yes. l 10 MR. BESADE: Generally. Were they 11 notified of this morning's meeting, Wayne? { 12 MR. LANNING: I can't answer that. {} 13 MR. BESADE: I know that's a long time 1 14 ago. 15 MS. SCULLY: We were told about this 16 morning's meeting (indiscernible). But I generally -- l ! 17 I do generally call. I didn't call about this 18 morning's meeting (indiscernible - not at microphone) . ' - 19 MR. LANNING: Maybe this would be a good 20 time to share the 800 number, such that if -- do you O l
= 21 have the 800 nun ~er?
!b lA
- s-22 A VOICE
- Here it is.
b 23 MR. LANNING: Aha. This is a number, 24 Joe, you can call. It's toll-free and it lists all POST REPORTING SERVICE l HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i L l
156 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O avoust 12 1992 i 1 meetings that we're having here at Millstone. It's
- 2 (800) 952-9674. And, of course, you know that the 3 meetings are also posted on the Web Page, the NRC Web 4 Page. But we already talked about that. So understand 5 that. But that's the phone number you can use and find 6 out all meetings.
7 MR. BESADE: Yes. Because I go to the 8 nuclear infonnation booth at the Waterford Library and ~ 9 sometimes it's -- it's not up to date. 10 MR. LANNING: It is --
'E 11 MR. BESADE: Thank you.
8 12 MR. LANNING: It's tough. 13 MR. IMBRO: Don't forget tomorrow at 14 1:00, Joe, there's the -- 15 MR. BESADE: I'll be there. 16 MR. LANNING: Yes, Ma'am? 17 MS. BASSILAKIS: Hi. Rosemary 18 Bassilakis again. I'll try to be very brief because I
- 19 know it's getting late. Is this just for ICAVP or did 20 we decide we can --
O
. 21 MR. LANNING: No. I think we opened it .8 g 22 up.
l 23 MS. BASSILAKIS: Okay. Let's see. 24 MR. IMBRO: It didn't seem like there o POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
, 157 7-) HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
(_j. AUGUST 12, 1997 I was any other people who wanted -- 2 MS. BASSILAKIS: If you could just 3 clarify something? In reading the transcript from last 4 week's meeting -- 5 MR. IMBRO: Which meeting? 6 MS. BASSILAKIS: The Commission meeting. 7 MR. IMBRO: Okay. 8 MS. BASSILAKIS: And I'll try and 9 explain this as best I can. But what was being talked 10 about was the recirc spray system. 11 MR. IMBRO: Yes. 12 MS. BASSILAKIS: Okay? And what was (V') 13 talked about the bypass flow around the service water 14 strainers. And what Dr. Jackson raised was that the 15 sump and the pump cavitation -- she raised the issue of 16 don't they impact both trains of the safety-related 37 system. And Mr. Brothers said yes, they do and I 18 proceeded to explain why they found it only of moderate
- 19 safety significance.
lt 20 And one of the things that he said was O.
- 21 that they're crediting containment pressure and that
.b
,lj 22 will have in that positive suction head in order for b 23 the system to be functional. And I -- I guess I just 24 need clarification. I mean is it standard to assume O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 1
158 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS (- ) AUGUST 12, 1997 1 that one safety system will work in order to back up 2 another back-up safety system? Do you understand my 3 question? And I apologize if I'm not explaining it 4 clearly enough. I was just concerned about that. I 5 thought that, you know, you can't assume -- I mean what 6 if containment ruptured? Then you wouldn't have that 7 positive pressure in order to account for it. Just if l 8 you could clarify that please? 9 MR. IMBRO: Well, okay. Without getting l 10 terribly complicated -- g 11 MS. BASSILAKIS: Is your mike on? I 12 can't hear you well. 13 MR. IMBRO: Yes. Yes, it is. 14 MS. BASSILAKIS: Okay. Thanks. 15 MR. IMBRO: The elevated containment 16 pressure raises the-boiling point of the water so you 17 have less chance of the water turning into steam --
$ 18 MS. BASSILAKIS: You have a terrible 1 19
- mike, Gene.
'h r 20 MR. IMBRO: So as I started to say, the O
= 21 increase -- what NRC -- the increase in containment g 22 pressure, to go back on my original train of thought, h 23 raises the boiling point of the liquid in the 24 containment. Okay. So that is sort of a -- we look at POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
159
-s HEARIHG RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
() AUGUST 12, 1997 1 it as non-conservative. And as NRC would assume, I 2 mean for our licensing basis, that containment over-3 pressure is not taking credit for in the accident 4 analys.s. So when they calculate MPSH, they assume 5 that the fluid is saturated. Okay? So it's at its 6 boiling point. 7 So the fact that the elevated 8 containment pressure makes the MPSH problem better. 9 So, in other words, I think what Mike Brothers was 10 saying was that if you -- if you consider a real -- g 11 realistic trio where, in fact, you do have an {} 12 elevate' i ment pressure, that that would not 13 cause "e
- t perform their safety function 14 because w.- 'exi containment pressure, there 15 would be suf fi cient net positive suction head 16 available.
17 MS. BASSILAKIS: Okay. l 18 MR. IMBRO: Okay. But I think that your i
- - 19 --
your other point is, yes, it does, in fact, affect,
-20 potentially affect -- well, it does affect both trains.
O
< 21 And so while -- while NU, I believe, did sort of a 1 .
g 22 - probablistic risk assessment look and in their look l 23 they've categorized it as moderate safety significance, 24 an issue of moderate safety significance, I think when p POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
160 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS AUGUST 12, 1997 1 you look at it from the ICAVP significance level 2 criteria that we laid out, those types of things would 3 be Level i because they do impact -- or could be -- 4 could be Level 1, let's say -- 5 MS. BASSILAKIS: Right. 6 MR. IMBRO: -- because R.Jy do impact 7 both trains. 8 MS. BASSILAKIS: Right. 9 MR. IMBRO: So we think, you know, from 10 our, I guess, qualitative -- qualitative criteria, we' g 11 think it's a significant. But we haven't done the PRA 12 analysis. (] v 13 MS. BASSILAKIS: Okay. This has nothing 14 to do with ICAVP. This was found by NU itself. So I 15 don't mean to confuse anybody by that issue. 16 MR. IMBRO: That's right. 17 MS. BASSILAKIS: My point was just that 5 18 how can you assume containment won't fail? That was my
- . 19 point; that it seems like you're relying on containment 20 not to failure in order to give you the positive O
< 21 pressure to help the net positive auction head. So , b j 22 that was my point. And I was concerned that that was b 23 standard in NRC regulations, whether you can assume a 24 back-up system -- O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
161 L S.ING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () AUGUST 12, 1997 1 MR. ,~1 BRO: It was not redundant. I 2 mean there's one containment in this. 3 MS. BASSILAKIS: Right. So if that let 4 go, then the -- 5 MR. IMBRO: Very well designed. 6 MS. BASSILAKIS: -- net positive suction 7 head is shot. 8 MR. IMBRO: But you would have other -- 9 you wouldn't even -- a 10 MS. BASSILAKIS: All right. Thank you. j 11 But -- okay. Okay. This one has to do with ICAVP. {} 12 There was a portion in the transcript which Dr. Jackson 13 brought up component reviews which ICAVP is doing and 14 questioned, "Well, what exactly do component reviews 15 mean?" And Mr. Shofer -- 16 MR. IMBRO: Yes. 17 MS. BASSILAKIS: He was referring to the I 18 CRG. What is CRG? Component Review Group. 1 19 MR. IMBRO: No. It's Configuration -- 20 MS. BASSILAKIS: Configuration Review 0
- 21 Group. And he was describing exactly what they do.
l 22 And he -- it states here in the transcript that their l
-b 23 scope is scoping the walk-down drawings, identifying 24 the boundaries, red-lining. And then he goes on to -O\_/
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
162 () HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS AUGUST 12, 1997 1 say, " making changes to those drawings based on the 2 outstanding changes that exist in the station that 3 haven't been -- but the drawings have not been revised. 4 To me, it sounds like he's doing a walk-down and , 5 they're revising drawings that haven't been updated. 6 And I read that and thought, "Well, isn't that NU's 7 job?" How can ICAVP be doing that? 8 MR. IMBRO: I think what he was trying 9 to do was explain what they mean by red-line drawings. 10 And typically, and particularly for drawings that are 11 not necessary for plant operation on a l day-to-day 12 basis, they don't necessarily update the drawing every {}} 13 time they make a change to it. However, they append 14 the change to it and, when they accumulate some number 15 'of changes, they decide to redraft it and reissue the 16 drawing. And so I think what he was trying to say is 17 that they need to review the plant against, you know, 18 the red-line drawings, too, which means that tLa 19 drawing and all the changes that are appended .e it h I E 20 which have not been rolled in yet. So what he's trying O
= _ 21 to do is review the design configuration against what's g.-
22 installed in the plant,
'l h 23 And I think the confusion was that it's 24 the concept of red-line drawings. They don't take O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
l i
163 g HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS V AUGUST 12, 1997 1 every- drawing every time a change is made, I mean 2 unless it's necessary for plant operation, like P-90's. 3 MR. TRAVERS: But they're not going NU's 4 yet. 5 MR. IMBRO: No , they're not -- yeah. 6 Yes, certainly, they're not doing IM's job. And 7 they're not updating the drawings for NU. 8 MS. BASSILAKIS: Okay. Well, thank you. 9 Lastly -- let's see. It's taking 10 extensive resources in order for NU -- I mean -- excuse f 11 me -- in order for the NRC to do this whole p J 12 investigative thing that they're doing to assure safe , 13 restart of the reactors. And it was mentioned in the 14 transcript that a fairly large amou:st of money is being
!_ 15 spent. It's stated that four million dollars will be 16 spent for the technical assistance as far as -- on l- 17 contractors alone in order to meet the schedule.
t' 18 I was just really curious. Now, the NRC 5 19 is paid out of utilities. Right? 20 MR. TRAVERS: That's right.
.l 21 MS. BASSILAKIS: And I guess I was just 22 wondering whether or not NU has to pay more of their 23 share into what NRC's budget is for a given year since 24 they're --
O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 __ n
164 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O ^uoust 12' 1997 1 MR. TRA"ERS: Yes. We're -- the answer 2 is yes. And it's because we're recovering from 3 Northeast the costs of these contractors in direct 4 billing. 5 MS. BASSILAKIS: So they have to_ pay 6 more into the pool than they normally would pay.
'7 MR'. TRAVERS: Well, there's a certain --
l 8 there's a certain amount established in -- 9 A VOICE: There's a base arount. 10 MR. TRAVERS: There's a base amount in f 11 the pool. 12 MS. BASSILAKIS: Right. 13 MR. TRAVERS: And.beyond that, each of 14 our reactors is obligated to reimburse the NRC for the f 15 kinds of inspections and activities that we have under 16 way here at Millstone. 17 MS, BASSILAKIS: Thank you. 18 MR. DELCORE: Hey, Gene, could I go 1 19 outside the scope? I have a couple of things I have g 20 before some other -- I didn't think we were going to -- 21 I thought we were staying with ICAVP.
.22 MR. LANNING: Let me ask if -- before 23 you sit down -- are there any other people that want to 24 talk about ICAVP?
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
-)
165 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS ( AUGUST 12, 1997 1 MR. DELCORE: Two. 2 MR. LANNING: All right. Hold on a 3 second. 4 MS . . GERRY WINSLOW: Hi. I'm Gerry A
-5 Winslow from Waterford. And I want to go to the six 6 discrepancy reports tnat are procedure problems. What 7 happens to them now that they've been picked up by 8 Sargent & Lundy? Do they go back and does NU look over p
9 them again or what do they do with them? 10 MR. IMBRO: No. No. What happens is f 11 that NU -- NU has looked at these discrepancies. I 12 believe they- have provided responses to Sargent & 13 Lundy. Sargent & Lundy is reviewing the discrepancy -- 14 the NU response and also will make a determination on,
! 15 you know, whether or not they agree with the NU 16 response, that - it is or is not a problem,- valid 17 problem. And then if it's agreed that it's a valid 18 problem, then corrective action will be developed. And V 19 -- you know.
E 20 So that the process is one of where at { 21 this point the NU response is being evaluated by 22 Sargent & Lundy. And they'll, first of all, see that 23 they agree with the NU characterization that -- whether 24 or not NU agrees this is a problem. And they may not. POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
166 HEARING RE: 1 MILLSTONE UNITS O-- AucuST 12, 1,,7 1 You4 know, they may not agree with that Nu response,-in < 2 which case it will probably go wit-h another iteration. . 3 And-then if they- finally agree to_ disagree, then we 4 would probably get. involved to see if we think it's a 5 problem. And ther we'd have to resolve _;it with _the l 6 licensee directly. l) 7 MS. WINSLOW: Okay. Then right now 8 there's eight discrepancy reports. How many -- 9 MR. IMBRO: Six-now. Six on -- 40 MS. WINSLOW: Six. But there's all 11 together.
~f i- 12 MR. IMBRO: Two are ---two are - -'well,-
13 more than two are in the works. There's another two in 14 the works, at least, on procedures. Possibly -- f 15 MS . WINSLOW: How many, though -- how
-16 many. will it take before you-stop'the ICAVP and decide 17 that enough~ things have gone wrong?:
18 MR. IMBRO: I -don't think we have a i: 19 definice number. I think we had_said -- g_ 20 MS. WINSLOW: You don't have a definite 21 number. 22 MR.-IMBRO: No. We never -- we never 23 said that we would have that.- But we have provided;the 24 four levels of significance. And we have_ suggested
!O: POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800)_262-4102
4 167 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS i AUGUST-12, 1.997 1 likely things we would do if those significance levels
'2 were triggered. And so, no, there's not a definite if .
3 they have -- 4 MS. WINSLOW: That's so arbitrary. That 5 doesn't make any sense. It's too arbitrary. 1 6 MR. IMBRO: Well, I-think there-are -- 7 it's hard' to have a one-to-one- response because there
-8 are so many different things that could come up. -It's -
9 hard to say that if a certain situation or -- I mean 10 look at the significance level of the discrepancies. f 11 I mean what we have said was if they
' 12 have one discrepancy that affects both redundant 13 systems, that this is something that Sargent & Lundy 14 identifies that NU has missed, likely we would: expand
'la _ 15 the-scope to look at additional systems.- 'But, on the
.$- 16 other _ hand, if the discrepancies- are of a low 4 17 threshold, like Level 4's, where they're really not'
*- 18 significant but may be editorial problems _or minor --
-[
.19 minor calculational errors, for example, that don't 20 -affect the.end result, then it's not -- those are not 21 significant. But I mean that a lot more of those that'
. 22 would have to manifest themselves before we would take 23 some kind -
of an action. So it's hard to say, "Okay.
-24 *If you.have.*X' DR's --
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
r -- . . f 168 l - HEARING RE:-MILLSTONE UNITS
,. AUGUST 12, 1997 1 MS. WINSLOW: So you don't have any 2 criteria then.
i 3 MR. IMBRO: We have criteria. I.just 4 told youlthat there are four levels. The criteria, the 5 primary criteria is that -- 6 MS. WINSLOW: But it's all up to your -- 7 . it's all up to your discretion what goes -- 8 MR. -IMBRO: Well, but the -- the 19 decision is not going to be made in a vacuum. You're 10 - going --to see how the discrepancies are categorized 11 because they're going to have the significance levels Lf. ( 12 on them. ' And then you're free to challenge us as to
'13 '
whatever-decisions we make. And NEAC --
-14 MS. WINSLOW:
Okay. _
;h 15 MR. IMBRO: We can do that here.
MS.-WINSLOW: "' hank you.
'16 k-:
-1 17 MR. LANNING: Mr. Fromer?
6 18 Sorry, Don. One more ICAVP. k .19 MR. FROMER: I just -- l 20 MR. LANNING: Stand by a minute. 21 MR. LANNING: Are you ready?
-22 MR. IMBRO: Okay.
23 MR. FROMER: Robert Fromer. I-just have 24 a' couple {of questions for my own edification, one h" POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
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_r. .. .....,..- .. ... . - - .
o-169 J -- HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS h I AUGUST-12, 1997
- 3 concerning red-lining. When- NU-is going :to make a 2 change to its drawings, okay, they don't,- according to 3 you or according to NU, they don't upgrade every cingle 4 drawing every time-they make a change. They append 5 papers which $dentify the change'. And someplace along 6 the- line when they decide for whatever reason, they
_7 upgrade it. But is all their -- let -me ask this p 1 question. Are all their designs,-all-their drawings -- o
- 9 I- suspect this is true -- up on a cca.puter? So that -- -
10 MR. IMBRO: I don't'know. 1 11 MR. FROMER: ~You don't know. So what f 12 happens-hypothetically if there's a paper attached --
)
13 and I'm- just_asking a hypothetical _ question because 14 these are just drawings that -have been done by
!!. 15 : draftsmen on-regular, you know, fashioned mylar or 16 whatever -- and a paper associated with, a change is l 17 lost'for some reason, how does the NRC cr anyone else ,
y: 18 identify what the change was to make sure that it's "b
= 19 actually upgraded?
l>
;{ 20 MR. IMBRO: Let me -- I mean I'have to -
21 - in all honesty, I'm not totally familiar with how NU. 22 does-business.. But I would venture to say that -- and i
- 23 maybe Wayne can help me out here -- that they have not-24 only the piece of paper appended to the drawing --
h POST REPORTING SER'TICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
l 170
,, HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS (j AUGUST 12, 1997 1 MR. LANNING: Control drawing, 2 MR. IMBRO: A control drawing. And the 3 changes against it are recorded.
4' MR. LANNING: Logged. 5 MR. IMBRO: .'.nd so -- 6 MR. FROMPR- I don't know. I'm asking 7 you what their system iE, 8 MR. IMBRO: Well, that's -- that's what 9 I think. I mean -- but I don't know particularly for 10 Millstone. But everybody -- all licensees do a little f 11 bit differently O. 12 MR. TONY CERNE: Yes. There's computer G , 13 accountability for a change against a docta.. ant. So 14 there is accountability. You wouldn't blindly go to
! 15 just the paper. You'd go to the computer'to find out 16 outstanding changes against-a design drawing.
17 'MR. FROMER: So the question real'y is 18 for these changes -- and this goes to configuration b g 19 -management control. .Is there some kind of backup-S g 20 system,.say, that if there's an error someplace, either 21 computer software or identification of a change, until
-22 it's actually upgraded? Is there some kind of backup i 23 system or Co you just have a primary system that if 24 there's an error there, that's it?
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
171 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS.' AUGUST 12, 1997
~
-1 -MR. IMBRO: It's:a hard copy; Right?
V-- 2 MR. CERNE: Well,
~
there's_ an opdated 3 computer file and there's hard copies. 4 MR. IMBRO: Okay.
'S MR. CERNE: And then there's the' drawing 6 with appended written --
7 'MR. FROMER: Okay. 8 MR. CERNE: So that there's several- ) 9 different backup systems. 10 MR FROMER: Okay. ,
-11 MR. DELCORE: But they-have to know:to 12 go to the compu r. If they don't go to the computer, 13 they won't be-able to glean that information.
-14 MR. CERNE: Right.
[ 15 MR. DELCORE: That's been- an issue 'in
- I '6 .the past.
'17 - MR. FROMER: ~Okay. So that's _a weak
.18 link in-the-chain there in terms of red line, in~ terms g
= 19 of changes, in terms'of upgrading --
g < j- 20 MR. IMBRO: I-don't think-it's a weak -- 21 I mean -I'm not sure that I would agree with the 22 characterization, but -- 23 MR. .FROMER: Well,_- according to- Don 24 Delcore, it may _be very well a weak link in the chain 4
- O -POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
.t 172-HEARING RE:-MILLSTONE UNITS h:
s
, AUGUST 12, 1997 1 of configuration control.
2 MR. -CERNE: Red-lining is a standard
-3 practice <in the industry. .And an engineer that's doing
-4 a- modification should be trained:and know to go to-all 5 relevant drawings.before he makes any changes.
6 MR. FROMER: Next question'has to-do
=7 with deficiency reports.- Once a deficiency report.is.
8 -identified by Sargent & .Lundy and :they agree that :it 'is 9 ~a problem, under --'my understanding of ICAVP; as long
10 as they~come up with a Corrective Action- Plan, that f 11 pretty much is the end of your concern? -Or does your 12 concern go to the point of ensuring that- that 13 corrective action is:actually;-implemented?
-14 A VOICE: The latter.
h -l5 MR. IMBRO: Well', it'.s-the latter. I.
' 16 .mean,-clearly 1- Sargent &:Lundy --
17 .MR. FROMER: I'm asking you the
~
'18 ' question. I--don't know.
I y 19 -MR._IMBRO: Yes. Well, I'm telling,yau. 5 -.- 4- 20 the answer. Its's the latter. We are _~ going to_ verify 21 the implementation of the corrective actions. ' 22 MR. FROMER: Chay.
'23 MR. TRAVERS: And it's actually -- the 4 24 other component that the lady previous brought up is POST REPORTING SERVICE-HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
173 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
. AUGUST 12, 1997:
1 that:the significance of the' item and'what we do or 2 don't do about it-is another issue that we're going to 3 be talking:about in'public as well. 4 MR.'FROMER: -Okay. All right. Thank 5 you. 6 MR. LANNING: 'All right. 7 MR. DELCORE: Okay. Quickly, a bunch of-(, 8 ' issues. One .was Mr. Kenyon's accounting to- the 9 Commission- August 6 about the Corrective' Action , 10 Program. His suggestion to the Commission was that the-
; 11 Corrective Action- Program is really about future
,h . : 12 prevention. And I really beg to. dicker with him. I 13 .really differ with him. I believe that- it's
- A4 identifying.and resolving issues and I don't think it's 15 at.all about preventing _ issues. I.think -- I think 16 .that's what root cause -analyses are and a- bunch of 17 other things. And I don't think'-- and if Mr. Kenyon
<- 1G believes that,-then'he needs to -- he needs to get- a g-r- 19 handle.on it. All right?' _If-you want to comment on
- $- l g.; 20 it, go ahead.
21 MR. LANNING: LWell,_a' good Corrective 22 Action Program would, indeed, look at future 23 _ performance of equipment to ensure reliability. 2 24 MR. DELCORE: And I agree that it would. O POST REPORTING SERVICE. , HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
i
-174' HEARING ~RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
. ()-~ AUGUST 12, 1997 1 .But all;I'm saying~;is that that's'not really what the 2 program's all about.- - I- think that's where -you go to 3 root;cause analysis and.a bunch of otherl things to make 4 sure that you-don't do that again and that you really 5 found what the cause of the problem was.
6 MR. LANNING: That's true, too. L 7 MR. DELCORE: Okay. He said- _ 8 specifically that the ECP was coming along fine to the 9 . Commissioner, to the Commissioners. And that's not 10 what I heard here tonight. And that's-not what I. heard
. y.
g- 11 on July 22.
-12 MR. TRAVERS: Well, I'll _just. mention 13 that. in addition to what he said, Little-Harbor had an 14 opportunity to describe their findings, as well. And I q
-15 _think_they were as candid with the Commission as.they [
16 i:were here. j;r 17 MR. DELCORE: The issue also of Admiral-l l
- 18 Carr deing an investigation into the disciplinary ; [< -
19 action that NU took on the 22 individuals. For the g 20 record, I' would like to point out that, to- my 21 knowledge, John Delcore, Tim O'Sullivan, Gary Johnson, 22 Don Delcore, Paul Blanche, Elliot Abiloffia and a 23 number of~other whistleblowers_had complaints __both with 24 the Office of Investigation, the Inspector General's ' POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
175 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS (] AUGUST 12, 1997 1 Office and with the Labor Department and with the State 2 of Connecticut Department of Utility Control while Mr. 3 Carr was-a Commissioner and the Chairman. And he did 4 not come to our aid. And I would think that he's not a
-5 guy to look into the issues that NU has assigned. And 6 I think you guys ought to take a hard look at that.
7 (Applause) 8 MR. DELCORE: I think that Mr. Kenyon l 9 also pointed out to the Chairman that Work Control was i 10 still a problem. But I think you guys have to remember 11 that's with a pretty low workload. Now, they're going 12 to go in at two 10-hour shifts and they're going to try 13 to work out a whole bunch of stuff through their Work 14 Control Department. l 15 And I suspect that we're going to see 16 the problems that we saw before if it's anything like 17 all the other issues of this recovery assessment t-
- 18 program because I think they admitted that they had a i
= 19 problem with -- as I recall -- I don't remember exactly 5
g 20 what systems he said he had a problem with. But I 21 wrote them down here. 22 At any rate, he had -- he had indicated 23 that Work Control was one of the issues. I've had a 24 chance to look at a whole bunch of them. I've had a O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
176 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS AUGUST 12, 1997 1 chance-to go to-an awful lot of meetings. It sounds to--
.2 me: like procedure compliance and procedure update 3 program, which is one of the issues on_your assessment 4 --
there isn't any firm indication that I could see 5 they sat a-handle on that problem yet. 6 There..doesn't seem to be much indication 7 that they have a handle on oversight. I think even-8 their own independent contractor review of-oversight 9 sa$d they had a whole bunch of problems. -And it's been 10 _ pretty evident-by-the fact-that-they didn't' pick up the 11 . programmatic ' issues that Billie Garde picked up and
- '12 Little Harbor Consultants picked up. I think that was -!
13 ~ an issue that they should have picked up. The six-14 issues which are DR's in the ICAVP for No. 3 certainly-h -15 should have been picked up by them. 16 So- just hitting on them- three things, 17 I'd say Oversight's still. got their programmatic
?- 18 problems. And so - safety work ethdc. Well, you know, b
19 that's one of your issues. I'm not. really sure unat
- [=
- g. 20 they've got a handle on that. The flags are flying, to 21 quote --
to coin a phrase. But -- conduct of i 22 operations,. just based -- just based on what I saw for ! 23 Unit 3 with the debacle over the fuel -- spent fuel 24 pool _ cooler issue tells to me that the conduct of POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN,'CT (800) 262-4102 1
177 HEARING RE: !ILLSTONE UNITS
~
l AUGUST 12, 1997 L1 operations-is-not adequate. 2 _ Training. -Well, we already_.know what 13 all the problems are'in training. And we're still-in a-4 training stand-down. And Mr..Kenyon took credit'for.
"5 qualifying eight new operators. What's the value of 6 the eight~new guys-that_just.went through this training _
l - -
'.7 program that;has all these problems?.- i 8 So what I'm saying to you is if I look-
-at the-~ circle back
~
9 in East Lyme that you drew, Wayne,
-10 about this Restart Assessment Program, I don't really-
>? l 11 see anything-in any one of those windows where they've: l1 12 corrected the programmatic issue or are even close to 4
-13 correcting- the programmatic issues, let alone-coming 14 'out and giving you a firm date saying "It's fixed 1 '15 .today" and'then you taking some finite amount of time 16 :to- determine that it is fixed. I don't 'see that 17 happening this year. I mean I- don't think they're r
18 anywhere near that.
.. h . .s 119 And I think somehow we've got to get 8
20 that message to them. And I think you guys need to get {- 21 .that message out'. I mean you're a lot closer 'to it 22 than we are. We're going to these meetings and I'm not 23 impressed with what I sec. And -- seriously. You guys 24 got to get the message out. They better start looking
- O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
178 s HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS k, AUGUST 12,-1997 1 :and changing-their dates:here. 2 -I'm very interested. --'today I noticed 13 when the information'came out,-that :they were talking 4 about' a ' November time frame or,- actually, a ' late 5 October' time frame for being in Mode 4. All right? 6 How.: do you put all these systems-7 together and go into Mode 4 when ycu haven't sent a -- t 8 letter to you guys saying, "I'm in compliance", 50.54? 9 How do. we move out of any modes anywhere?- How:do we 10 rely on loading ' fuel?: -How do we rely on core removal 11 cooling systems?' How do we rely on any 'of the stuff 12 that needs to be supported to be-in Mode 4=unless-a 13 50.54 letter -- F letter is sent to you saying "We're-14 in complianc'e"? 15 They're saying that they're_ going to be-
-S 16 in Mode 4 in late October. Yet, they're not going to 17 give you a 50.54F compliance letter until November 25. -*~
18 Something -- h!
= 19 MR. CERNE: November 22 was. the stated- a!
g_ 20 date for Mode 4. 21 MR. DELCORE: Okay. 22 MR. LANNING: Right. g 23 MR. DELCORE: Well, something's wrong 24 with that. POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l l 9
179-
=
HEARING-RE:-MILLSTONE' UNITS
)f AUGUST 12,1 1997 1 MR. LANNING: :No. .The-schedule -- their 2 schedule calls for. submitting _the 50.54F response the 3 'same date, 11/22.
4 MR. DELCORE: Yeah. But-what I'm saying 1 5 -is how.can they be at Mode 4 when they submitted it the-
-6 same day?- What they-need to do.is submit it-to-you 7 before they move out .of Mode 6- or Mode .5. _W e're 8 talking about using systems-that- aren't in' compliance-l until they issue:you a letter saying they are.
9
-10 MR. LANNING: Yes.
h: 11 MR. DELCORE: They shouldn't be doing
-12
{ that. So we-need to look at that and say, " Wait a
- 13 minute. Give me a letter of compliance. Then you move- d 1 14 forward on your schedule of- relying on fall of the J: - 15 systems to support Mode 4" or Mode.5 or whatever?the-1 16 case is. I've got a problem with that.
17 Ms. William -- that was her name today?
< , 18 That-girl that gave a presentation with the QA sply?
'm h
. 19 A VOICE: There was a woman there.
?$.
j 20 MR. DELCORE: A' woman. Did I say -- I'm 21 sorry. Wilkins? l 22 A VOICE: Wilcox? 23 A VOICE: Wilkerson. 24 MR. DELCORE: Okay. Well, whatever her ; POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
180 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS- - :h- ~ - AUGUST 12, 1997: 1 name-was, she-told--- -she said something about;being in 2 -compliance with -a generic- letter-'and that their
-3 position was, NU's position was that they were in l 4 ; compliance- with the . generic letter, yet they' just. I 5 hadn't written the procedures- yet. Did I hear her 6 right? _Or was I wrong?
!7 How can you be in compliance with a 8 generic issue from some letter when you don't even'have-9 procedures to do it.and to govern it and control-it?
10 It kind of went by and I didn't hear any questions from 11 you guys. And I was quite surprised about that. 12 MS. LUXTON: Can you answer him when 13 he's asking these things please?
.14 MR. DELCORE: I'm really very interested
[- 15 in that. I don't understand how they could do that.
! 16 A_ VOICE: We'11;look into it. We'11-get
- g. 17 back-to you, r-
>< 18 MR. CERNE: The ' issue on Generic Letter
- e- 19 90.03 had to-do with the vendor programs.
20 MR..DELCORE: Right.
-21 MR. CERNE: We have a Significanc Items 22 List where, based on prior inspections primarily,'the 23 Virgilio team inspections back in '96, there were some
-24 problems with their procedures and keeping the vendor
-O! POST-REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
l
)
-181
' HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
-; . AUGUST-12, 1997 1 -manual- updates-in -line with-the- required procedure-2 changes. -__So-that.-is an-issue of significance to us.
3 The Generic Letteri90.03 was, a guidance 4 or recommendations- by the NRC that --'it . involved an 5 INPO document called VETP- for Vendor 6 Equipment / Technical Programs. And essentially, we were 7 looking into the new process. They have a whole new~ 8 -programmatic assessment that addresses this VETP and'
'9 vendor-_ issues that they're publishing as a procedure
-10 . called VC-16.
11 Their- position is that VC-16, the way 12 they're implementing it, is in compliance with the 13 generic letter. -And we have.-some questions-in regard
;14 to that ongoing with our present inspection. So that's- 1 l 15 what those. conversations _were about.
[:- 16 MR. DELCORE: Okay. But it did seem > 17 'that she said that their position ~was they--were in 18 compliance.with the letters, but they did not have-any h
- =- 19 procedures established to govern it.
g 20 MR. CERNE: .No. No. They - have
-21 procedures and they say they've been in. compliance with 22 the program, but their- VC-16 program is an enhancement 23 .to their prior program that supposedly goes beyond the 24 requirements. Now, we do have some technical issues
( - POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMOEN, CT (800) 262-4102 k- !
182 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS I.v) AUGUST 12, 1997 1 with them that we're following up as to whether we 2 agree they're in compliance with the generic letter or 3 not. 4 MR. DELCORE: Okay. 5 MR. CERNE: That inspection is still in 6 progress. 7 MR. DELCORE: Okay. Then I -- 8 MR. LANNING: The point is -- make sure 9 of the point here. The point is we have to review the
- 10 results. We have to review the completion package for 11 that significant item that's on our list. So, you
(-)
%-)
12 know,-they can indicate where they think the status is. 13 But we will go and review the packages and the 14 procedures, et cetera, f 15 MR. DELCORE: I understand that. And I 16 was busy writing and I may have, you know, 17 misinterpreted what she said. But I could have swore I 18 that's what she said.
.E 19 Do you people feel it a little bit g- 20 strange that the ECOP, the panel, is getting intake 21 type stuff from people and that they're really not a 22 part of the'ECP program? I mean I heard Quinn say 23 today that he -- that the concerns brought to his 24 panel, there was information to be gained with it but
\
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
183-HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS (). AUGUST 12, 1997 i 1 he'd rather -- rather simply thought it was a 2 relatively simple data point. That's all it was. And 3 I'm kind of concerned about that. I think whatever 4 comes in to him, he has to have -- he has to be under 5 the auspices of the ECP in order to ingest that 6 information and deal with it or he needs to do some 7 direction like Little Harbor does and either send them 8 to you or send them to the ECP or wherever they want to 9 go. 10 MR. McKEE: And that's what he said. He 11 said when issues are raised or comments are raised, 12 that they did provide direction that they should bring 13 them back to the line management or to ECP or other 14 avenues if that's what they felt on those concerns.
! 15 And I didn't see it --
it's -- you know, 16 that's a new program. They're talking to people and 17 So without really understanding lr they're getting input.
* -18 some of the context of the issues and understanding i
a 19 what he said and how they're dealing with them, that g 20 they are, you know, asking those individuals to forward 21 them back through the other processes, and it sounded 22 to me that th,ey weren't saying -- they were very clear 23 that they weren't the intake process for any issues. 24 MR. DELCORE: I'm concerned about it (' POST REPORTING SERVICE i HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
184 y HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS i AUGUST 12, 1997 1 from -a standpoint, Phil, that has to do with Buzz 2 -Carnas taking concerns, Joe Schmoe taking concerns on 3 this~ hot line. Okay? And all these people intaking 4 concerns. And it's not being correlated. It's not an 5 indication or indicative of what all is going on in the 6 world of ECP and in the world of a safe environment, if 7 you understand what I'm trying to say, , 8 MR. McKEE: I think what you're saying ! 9 is close to a comment that Little Harbor has made on 10 all, you know, human relations; that there should be a .., 11 consistent process wherever an issue is brought up, p- 12 whether it's brought up, you know, at any -- q
-13 MR. DELCORE: It needs to be tracked.
14 It needs to be logged. And it needs to be brought to l -15 management's attention under the scope of this printout 16 that they decided they're going to have to keep track 17 [. of all these issues. I just think it's important. And 18 it seems to me it's another avenue we're losing info b'
= 19 here on the workplace and on people and their concerns.
.5 g 20 This is a question to you guys. And I'm 21 not really sure how to address it. But the mice that
. 22 I'm getting the information say that they're -- you 23 know, treat it any way you want to treat it. But the 24 mice are caying to me that there's an investigation
^
)
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
- 185-HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
_- AUGUST. 12,.1997 1 1 that was conducted-l within-Kenyon's organization with 2 regard to some pockets of harassment and intimidation.
-- 3 And that while the report isn't' completely conclusive,
~4 it does point out that those areas exist. And it's-my 5 Lunderstanding that there hasn't- been anything done 6 about it. ..The . investigation has -been done for some 7 time and it remains on-his desk. And I~think you need 8 to look into that.
9 I think you need to talk to NU-about 10 that and-find out-or talk to Little Harbor and have j Ill Little Harbor research it and find- out if- there's 12 already been some . investigation done about some of l 13 these problems, then why hasn't NU taken some action 14 against the perpetrators? j 15 Mk. McKEE: Yes. That's a legitimate 5
- l. 16 question'. I am aware and I think Mr. Kenyon even l
17 mentioned at the Commission meeting that through that t .y 18 they had themselves, they had some -identification of 1 .h '19 i pockets . where concerns -- you know, where there was 20 more, you know, poor dealing
}- with employee concerns.
21 So I don't know what in that context he's referring to. 22 He may very well Ebe referring to some additional 23 .information, you know, he received. So we'll follow up 24 on that.
.(
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i
186 () f HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS AUGUST 12, 1997 1 MR. DELCORE: Okay. All right. And you 2 might- even look at the aspect of who did the-3 investigation. And you might find that he was a 4 perpetrator in a couple of your earlier cases. 5 If I look at the issues that Mike 6 Brothers took up today about conduct of operations at 7 Unit 3, the improvement initiatives that he talked l l 8 about -- and I think that the ones that he was 9 specifically talking about was with regard to the heat 10 exchanger-issues on spent fuel pool. 11 They're strikingly similar to prior r- 12 responses to tagging issues, to improper valve
\.s) 13 manipulations and to verifications of valve line-ups, '
14 the initiatives that he's trying to take to make that
- f. 15 issue better. And I think you'd be -- you'd be well-16 advised to go back and look at similar issues and NU's 17 commitment in the past to dealing with those issues 18 because, as I said, they're strikingly familiar and S 19 they obviously haven't dealt with the issue because g 20 it's still there. So I'd like you to annotate that and 21 address that.
22 Today, somebody talked about SIL 23 packages, Significance Issue List, I assume, packages 24 being submitted to Jacque Durr and they were POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l l
'18 7 :-
"~ ^
HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS: AUGUST 12, 1997
--- 1 incomplete. And then I heard somefdiscussion back and
- 2 forth about !the NRC's willingness- to take -partially; 33 completed packages- with regard jto certain work-iitems-4 and.SIL-issues and so forth. That-seems--unacceptable-
- (
-5 .to me, l 6 that the NRC: -accepts a-
~
- It seems- to me L7 package when it's-complete. and does what.it has - to do
-8 and_ doesn't accept an incomplete package to-try to 9 ; facilitate meeting a-; schedule.
10 The licensee completes the p'ackage, says
. 11 the work's all done. You go- -in and' do your_ audit. 4
-12 Shirley says you're audit' people. And it sounds to me 13 like they're doing part of. their package in a' 14 convenience. And Ildon't:think that needs to be done. !
15 I'm not attacking Jacque Durr. I'm not-attacking you 16 guys. I'm . simply saying it sounds unacceptable:on the 17 -surface to me. J"; :18 MR. McKEE: -All right.
= ,19 -MR. DELCORE: Mr. Kenyon in his remarks bI p '20 again to Shirley I believe- has contradicted himself.
-21 He.said that we -got this.. good-training program .andLwe 22 just-turned out these eight good operators. And-in the
;23 same_ breath, we're hearing that they're in a-stand-
-24 .down, that training's had'all kinds of problems and he
~
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
i 188 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () AUGUST 12, 1997-1 just administered disciplinary action to 22 people. It 2 doesn't' compute to me. Something's wrong here. 3 And he did talk about that operational 4 readiness wasn't where he wanted it. But he failed to 5 mention, as I said, procedure compliance, procedure 6 upgrades and the Oversight Quality Department, which 7 appears to be dearly lacking. 8 And I thank you for your patience. 9 MR. LANNING: Okay. Thanks.
- 10 Any others? Mr. Luxton?
11 MP. . LUXTON: Charlie. Luxton, Waterford. i ' 12 I appreciate your patience. I know it's getting late. _) (r~% 13 Did I hear -- Gene, did you say at the 14 very outset that instead of four systems that were f 15 going to be looked at, now there's 15?. You know? -Is 16 it -- did I -- did I misunderstand something? 17 MR. IMBRO: No. That's right. 18 MR. LUXTON: Oh. When did that happen?
= 19 That wasn't --
g 20 MR. IMBRO: Last meeting you missed. 21 MR. LUXTON: Okay. So -- 22 MR. IMBRO: No. Let me -- let me say -- 23 what we had said in the Commission paper was we'd look , 24 at a minimum of four systems. But, also, we wanted to POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 1
189
--s
, HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
_)l AUGUST 12, 1997 1 group systems in ways that made sense to us in terms of 2 assuring functionality of a particular aspect of the 3 plant. 4 And so if you look at how the 5 maintenance rule of Parsons thinks, it's cut very fine. 6 And it turns out that Senator Peters or -- I think is 7 the one that selected -- no , not -- Andrea Stillman 8 selected the emergency diesel generator. In with that 9 emergency diesel generator, we lumped all the other i l 10 systems that are part of that package to assure that 11 diesel generating will be functional. For example, the
- - f~'t 12 fuel oil system and the blue oil system, the exhaust L
- h.)
13 system, the ventilation system -- 14 MR. LUXTON: Each of those was -- l 15 MR. IMBRO: So they're all different -- 16 they're all systems, discreet systems in accordance lr 17 with their maintenance rule definition. So -- but in
" 18 order to be able to assure that the diesel generator is g 19 functional or can do a safety function, can perform a 3
g 20 safety function, we need to look at all these things. 21 So that's why -- that's how the four grew to 15, 22 because there was nine systems alone associated with 23 the diesel generator. 24 MR. LUXTON: Okay. Is that like hitting (#
)
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
190:
-w- HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
..j -AUGUST 12, 1997-
-- 1 _the_ jackpot!or something?
2 MR. IMBRO: Something:like_that. 3 MR.- LUXTON: What doithey call that?
- 4 -A' VOICE: -One year nine.
One year nine.- 5 MR. LUXTON: Okay.- Now, there's_ six-
-_6 DR's identified and-two on the way and there are more 7 to come. And the number's 30? Don Delcore seems to-8 have some.'information about 30. Is that --
9 A' VOICE: The number of DR's taken out 10 so far is 57. 11 A VOICE: Let's ask-Don Schopofer from 12 Sargent & Lundy. 13 MR. LUXTON: Okay.
-. 14 -MR. DON SCHOPOFER: 57 numbers have been-1 15 taken out.- They're in process. There will' be ---
16 besides the six -- 17 COURT REPORTER: I'm going to have to
- 18 ask him to please --
1_ e 19 MR. LANNING: Don, you have .to come up lg. =20 to the mike.
'21 MR SCHOPOFER: Besides the six' that
.22 were issued,.to date there are 25 that will be issued 23 probably Thursday or Friday or, at the latest, Monday 24 of next. week. And there are 57 numbers taken out to POST REPORTING SERVICE.
HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
i 191 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS I
%/
't. AUGUST 12, 1997 1 date.
2 MR. LUXTON: Thank you.
-3 MR. IMBRO: I guess, you know, I need to 4 point out again that, you know, with any kind of review 5 that's as focused and as in-depth as this type of 6 review, we did not expect that Sargent & -Lundy would 7 find nothing. In fact, when we go in and do our own 8 check of Sargent & Lundy, we may yet again find things 9 that they may have missed. So I mean just the fact
. :UD that there are discrepancy reports doesn't necessarily l , 11 indicate that the whole CMP process is flawed.
(- 12 MR. LUXTON: Okay. 13 MR. IMBRO: It depends on the 14 significance of the DR's. And we really do need to -- l 15 MR. LUXTON: Right. And we'll get a 5 16 chance to have a look at those? j' 17 MR. IMBRO: Yes. Absolutely. E
<- 18 MR. LUXTON: You know, because it's -- I
= 19 mean the numbers keep going up. That's a larger number
{ 20 than I even thought might be discovered. 21 You know, it just seems to me that NU 22 stated that they were ready. I mean ready to me meant 23 that they were clean as a whistle, that'they knew they 24 were going to be under this really heightened scrutiny.
\ -
POST REPORTING SERVICE RAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
1 192 m - HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS >'
)-.j(); AUGUST 12, 1997 I 1 And that just doesn't sound like they're ready. I mean 57 2 ;is.-- and you might discover more. So it just' 3 doesn't sound right to me.
4 A VOICE: Your mike's not- working. It 5 keeps' going in and out. 6 A VOICE: The wire's coming apart on the 7 bottom. 8 A . VOICE: You need another mike,
-9 Charlie, because that doesn't --
10 A _ VOICE: .The equipment- here in' f 11 Waterford. We'll have to do something about it. This l 12 one -- is this one working? j 11 3 MR. LUXTON: Okay. Well, so I just -- 14 -it just doesn't sound to me like they ready. I mean if
-l) '15 they're getting all these DR's. And I guess maybe I'm-
-16 just --
we're not' communicating on what ready really l 17 means. Ready to me means something different than. I
.P .18 .apparently what it means to you.
=- 19 All right. Now, one of the -- now, the
.;h g 20 service water is one of the systems they're looking at.
21 Now, it's my understanding that'the NRC has looked at-22 the service water in the past on a couple of'different 23 occasions fairly recently. Is that correct? Service 24 water is not -- it's not like it's the first time we're POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
193 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
? . AUGUST 12, 1997
-1 looking at the system.
J Not as far as I--know.
- 2 -MR. CERNE: 'We -
haven't done a slopey.in
-3 -Unit--: 3. However, the' service water lias been looked at 4 _as'a routine inspection _of a system, not a concentrated j 5 effort in --
6 .MR. LUXTON: Okay. Well, it seems -- my-
- _7 : perception is that this still is~an issue of trust for 8 the NRC and the public in particular. I- got-this:
9 restart letter that-I-looked at. I guess it's in --
-- 10 it's dated July 20, 1995. And it allowed Unit- 2 to
[ 11 restart. And, you know, a few months!later Unit 2 went p 12 down. Right? And then a month later,_they were put on
.O_
13 the Watch -List. .Is that right?-- They went down in
-14 January, put on the_ Watch List in February?-
.l. 15 A VOICE: Put on the Watch List in: 16 January -- 17 MR. LANNING: That's '90-- a different a- 18 year. -l-
-19 A VOICE: No. This was before --
{ -. 5 " 20 MR. LUXTON: Okay. Well,. correct me
'21 then.-
22 MR-. LANNING: I think it went. on the _. 2 3 Watch List in '97. 24 A VOICE: January of '96. POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
194-
-HEARING RE:-MILLSTONE UNITS hm AUGUST- 12,-;1997 1 MR. LANNING: '96. January of '96.
2 -A VOICEi ;On the Watch List.
-3 MR. LANNING: On-the Watch List.
1 4 MR. DELCORE: On the Watch List. In 5 February, they shut down because of the (indiscernible) 6 _ problem and~they couldn't get back up because a--50.54F 7 issues. 8 'A VOICE: In-June,-they were Category 3..
'9 MR. DELCORE: -The previous . August -of 1
-10 '95, they started-up after a 10-month core shutdown ---
(f -11 .MR LUXTON: Okay. But the: point is-you'
; il2 said they were- ready in this letter. You gave the
- 13 permission to start up. And then they went down a very
-14 short. time-later. That's what I'm trying to get at.
! 15 -Okay? So that's a: -- to me, that's; a - pretty lousyL
,_16 _ track record.--
9- 17 And I just want to ask were an of you h 18 five- guys up here responsible for writing that- or l_ aj 119 _giving them -permission, any of you five have anything
; {- .20 -to do with that?
^ 21 MR. LANNING: Yes.
22 MR. LUXTON: Okay. All right. Well, I-23 just want to put you on notice, you know, that I'm not 24 happy with that. And no one in this region should be , 1
. POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
195-HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
-!b.
- v AUGUST _12, 1997-il ' happy ~with that. And if 'that's how Unit 3-is going to 2 be allowed to_-start up, well, you know, I mean I think 3 that's. criminal. I think it's criminal. I 4 (Applause) 5 MR. LUXTON: Okay. Now; NU's training 6 program, are they or are they not in a stand-down mode'
~
7 right now? 8 MR. LANNING: Various parts of. the 9 training program have been re-initiated.
-10 A VOICE: They're still in stand-down, n
j 11 though. 12 MR. LANNING: They're'still in s*.and-13 down for parts of it. Yes. 14 MR. LUXTON: Okay. Well, NU made a 15
~
fairly abrupt decision to discipline _several- of its 16 staff. You know, it leads- me to believe that the 17 -program is not working. And 1 don'. trust it. And-
? z i8 apparently, they don't trust-it, e. *.hr.r , if it's in the b' -g 19 stand-down,
_g' g 20 You know, the spent. fuel pool issue 21 -seems-to me to be an example, the recent spent fuel 22 pool issue not the '95 . issue, because -- I mean the 23 plant's shut- down_and that's the only really safety- j 24 .significant system that they really had to be careful POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
, l
u e 196
' HEARING RE: MILLSTONE-UNITS f( ) .
~
AUGUST.12, 1997-
~
-1 :of,:is;that -- cooling the core. -Right?
2 - MR. LANNING: Spent. fuel. 3 MR. LUXTON: Spent fuel. I'm sorry. 4 Spent fuel. But theyJcouldn't tell alpha from bravo. 15 MR. JACQUE DURR: The' thing that they 6 have to. protect right now is the-fuel that's in the 7 reactor. There's fuel in the reactor right now -- _8 MR. LUXTON: Right. 9 MR. DURR: -- on Unit 3. l 10 MR. LUXTON: Okay. So that's another o [- 11 system that they have to look out for. But the spent 12 fuel pool is another system --
- 13 MR. DURR: One of several that they have 14 to look out-for. Yes. '
-[= 15 MR. LUXTON: Okay. But in -- when the sg-isfshut-down, there are.a lot fewer systems that
~
(( " 16 plant
; 17 they'really have to --
I -18 MR. DURR: Yes. That's correct.
]I e
- c19 MR. LUXTON: Okay. So the_ spent-fuel
{ "' 2 10 pool. is something .that they shouldn't have had any f21 problem taking care of. 22 MR. DURR: No dispute.
-23 MR. LUXTON: Okay. Well, _anyway, the 24 training program, you 'know -- I have serious doubts POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 o.
3 J
197 HEARING RE: MILLSTO.'E UNITS O ^uoust 12 1997 1 about the operators who have been trained through this 2 program that is now considered rot working. You know? 3 Because of the program was faulty, I mean when -- when 4 did it begin to be faulty? And who was trained with i 5 that program, you know, during that t'.me? 6 Can you give me s.. m e indication of 7 what's the nature of the test that those operators have 8 to take and who designs it? Do you take a look at it? 9 Do you design it? Who is in charge of that test and -- 10 MR. LANNING: Yes. Let me back you up s f 11 aat a little bit. We, too, had ccncerns about thr-12 raining program. And even before they instituted the 13 stop work on the training program, we had already 14 issued a Confirmatory Action Letter which really l 15 addressed licensed operator training. And there are 16 some 70 items that they need to fix just to address 17 that part of the training program.
- 18 But to respond to the latter part of 19 your question, as part of our evaluation of operator 20
{ readiness for restart, we'll look at two aspects. 21 First will be on the simulator where we will develop 22 scenarios and watch the eierators perform. We'll 23 evaluate how well NU evaluates their operators and so 24 forth because all that has a reflection upon the
.]
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
198 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS h AUGUST 12, 1997 1 training program. 2 And, in audition, we'll be observing the 3 OSI, for example. We'll be observing operator 4 performance in the control room during that inspection. 5 So there's really a very comprehensive inspection 6 activity planned for evaluating operator readiness for 7 operation. 8 MR. LUXTON: Okay. Now, how about the 9 operators that had been trained previously through 10 perhaps a flawed program? Are those operators going to f 11 be retested? 12 MR. LANNING: Some of those operators 13 will be part of this evaluation. No doubt. Yes. 14 MR. LUXTON: Okay. Now -e okay. This f 15 is not a question because I know it's true. But the 16 NRC bases many of its decisions and judgments on
.] 17 information from the licensee. I know that. I know f
18 that to be a fact. 1 19 A VOICE: That's true. 20 MR. LUXTON: Yet, there are still 21 pending investigations regarding the making of material 22 false statements by NU's management to the NRC. And I 23 know this is an old issue. But it gets back to the 24 issue of trust and me living a mile and a half and my O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 I~
199 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () f, AUGUST 12, 1997 1 kids, my wife, my parents nearby. 2 The integrity of NU's management is 3 still very much in doubt. And we've heard a lot said 4 about how they've changed this, they've changed that 5 and this guy's gone. And, sure, they've made some l 6 changes. Some of them have been shuffled and I'm not ! 7 sure where they're going to reappear. So I have l 8 worries about that. l 9 But, you know, I -- and their management 10 has been hammered by a number of reports. I mean you f 11 guys have hammered their management. The DPUC, We've r~w 12 hammered them. I mean the New London Day. They've (J, 13 gotten criticized very heavily. Yet, Vernie Fox is 14 still CEO. And once he steps down, he's going to be a l 15 consultant to the utility for a couple of years down
- 16 the road? That does not give me any confidence in the 17 lr integrity of this utility.
< 18 The Board of Directors is basically the 0 19 same. And if this Professor Rasmussen is -- is on this
[ g 20 Board of Directors -- now, he's the guy that worked -- 21 that did the reactor safety study for the AEC. You 22 know, why that guy is not in jail is beyond me. He 24# " *
- J. app not deserve to be in that exalted position on that i
2? Board of Directors. I think he's a criminal, p' POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
l 200' HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS h AUGUST 12, 1997 1 Dr. Gail Deplonk served for the NRC 2 during- a period when it-- was in decline- and not doing l-3 its job. It also seems to me to be evidence of-4 collusion between the NRC and the -- and the utility. .
-5 And,. you- know, there are other l-6 management people still working for NU. Steven Skase -
7 - and correct me_ if I'm_ wrong. But I think he was 8 Plant . Manager during the 442 valve incident. Is that 9 correct, Jacque? Was he Plant Manager?
'10 MR DURRt- ~He was the Vice President -- -
~
11 MR. LUXTON: Okay. A position of great 12 authority. 13 MR. DURR: Yes. .He was up there, 14 MR. LUXTON: Okay. Now he's. brought
'l 15 back as a hero, as one of the saviors of the utility.
16 -I mean that just does not make any sense to me. 17 Mr. Rothan has been there as'a senior --
*L 18 -in a senior management position for a'long time. And
.i 19 if you're going to hammer management, then you've got
-20 to hammer him.
]
21 Management of the Licensing Department 22 gave fits to A1:Cizek when he tried to bring up valid' 23 concerns about the ECU-29, 28 valves. They're still 24 there, as far as I know.
-h-POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
201 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS AUGUST 12, 1997 1 That's why we don't trust NU. And I i 2 don't know what you can do about that. I know that l 3 George Gladys' issue is out there. It's been found to 4 be correct and accurate on the technical issues. And I 5 don't -- can you tell me what's keeping that frcm 6 coming to light.as far as resolution on the criminal I 7 issues? That, to me and I know to my group and to 8 people in Waterford, is an important issue. Can I get I 9 any information about that? Isn't it in your interest 10 to resolve that issue? f 11 MR. LANNINGt I understand your concern. f 12 You've expressed it before. It's really outside of 13 what we can talk about, vnat we really know about in 14 reality. And it's on a course of its own. And I just
! 15 don't have anything nore to tell you.
16 MR. LUXTON: Just tell me where -- is it ' 17 in the Justice Department? Is that who is handling it 18 now? I mean -- 19 MR. LANNING: I just can't talk about g .20 it.
-21 A VOICE: Wish we could.
22 MS. WINSLOW: Will it be solved before 23 restart? 24 A VOICE: There's no guarantee that it p. POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 o
l 202 HEARING PE. MILLSTONE UNITS O ^uoust 12, 1997 1 will be solved before restart. 2 MR. LUXTON: There's no way the issue -- 3 I think it chould be an issue. I think it should be a 4 restart issue, if it isn't. 5 MR. DELCORE: It's a restart assessment 6 issue, isn't it? l 7 MR. LUXTON: Thank you very much. 8 MR. TRAVERS: I'11 just mention -- I'11 9 just mention that all of the pending issues of that 10 sort are restart issues, as Mr. Delcore pointed out, 11 and they'll be assessed. It doesn't mean they'll all 12 be resolved to the extent that everyone would like to 13 see them. But they're going to be considered in the
-14 context of the Commission's decision on restart as to f 15 whether and how significant they are to that decision.
16 MR. LANNING: Okay. Any other -- Mr. 17 Markowicz? 18 MR. MARKOWICZ: John Markowicz from
= 19 Waterford. The one view graph that I saw this
{ 20 afternoon that kind of has me concerned -- and I was 21 thinking of bringing it up earlier, but didn't maybe -- 22 but it's the -- you have to show- the number of 23 allegations. It looks like it's going onto critical. 24 It looks like up to 90. And it's got a slope like that ( POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 _)
203 HEARING RE: MILISTONE UNITS
.h AUGUST 12, 1997 1 in the last two months. Can you talk at all about 2 what's going on there? I mean what I understood from 3 the discussion earlier about allegations was you get a 4 ilot. of phone calls and some of them are junk-phone.
5 . calls- and some of. them are- bona fide allegations 6 (indiscernible). And so can -you' talk about the' nature 7 of these things? Are they 5.ing to know about them orl. 8 -- it's an alarm bell, as far as I'm concerned. 9 MR. LANNING: You know, I can't-talk a-10 lot about the allegations other than tell you that we -
'11 - they are a source of important information about the .f-12 safety of the plant. We get good information from 13 .these allegations. We treat each one seriously. Each 14 .one is considered by itself and collectively. And our ,
[ 15 backlog in a lot less than NU, for example, in dealing 16 'with allegations. 17 But, other than that, I can't really
- 18 expand upon?the nature 7f the allegations or where
' a-l: 19 they're coming from or that. type of description. 5 -20 MR. MARKOWICZ: I understand. Is there
- g 21 going to be any kind of a linkage with Little Harbor on 22 those allegations? 'Or are you going to kind of follow 23 whatever your standard procedures are? Is that a fair 24 question?
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN,'CT (800) 262-4102
204 HEARING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS (_s) AUGUST 12, 1997 1 MR. LANNING: Yes. We've -- we have a 2 process established for dealing with allegations. In l 3 some cases, Little Harbor Consultants are involved, but 4 not in all. 5 MR. MARKOWICZ: Okay. Just one final l 6 comment. What Billie said was that those go up kind of l l 7 when the employee concerns drop off. And there was 8 some -- and I spoke to her briefly. She was not aware 9 of this 90 number and she's going to look at it. 10 MR. LANNING: Okay.
$ 11 Okay. Thank you very much. Hope this 12 has been useful to you. And good night.
, ;{ } 13 x 14 (Whereupon, the meeting was concluded at
.l 15 11:25 P.M.)
l 4
,1 -
1 O POST REPORTING SERVICE IIAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i
n CERTIFICATE U I, Paul Landman, a Notary Public in and for the State of Connecticut, and President of Post Reporting Service, Inc., do hereby certify that, to the best of my knowledge, the foregoing record is a correct and verbatim transcription of the audio recording made of the proceeding hereinbefore set forth. I further certify that neither the audio operator nor I are attorney or counsel for, nor directly related to or employed by any of the parties to the action and/or proceeding in which this action is taken; and further, that neither the audio operator nor I are a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties thereto, or financially interested in any way in the outcome of this action or proceeding. In witness whereof I have hereunto set my hand and do so attest to the above, this 20thday of August; 19 97 I kt LA but Landman, ' O President i i i POST REPORTING SERVICE O '.soo.262 41o2 _____m__m__m-_ -_------'-- "-- -'- - "-"'}}