ML20128N219
| ML20128N219 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Palo Verde  |
| Issue date: | 06/30/1982 |
| From: | Rehfeld R BECHTEL GROUP, INC. |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20079P594 | List:
|
| References | |
| FOIA-83-161, FOIA-83-A-9 NUDOCS 8506030200 | |
| Download: ML20128N219 (38) | |
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- UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
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NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
' In the matter of:
. Interview of Russell A.-Rehfeld Docket No.
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Location:
Pages:
Date:
June 30, 1982 7
8506030200 831110 PDR FDIA DERNADE03-A-9 PDR TAYLOE ASSOCIATES Court Reporters 1625 i Street, N.W. Suite 1004 Weehington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293 1950 L-
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June 30, 1982 c
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Palo Verde. Nuclear Station:
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. e Investigators :
E. J.
Power 16 -
Owen'Shackleton
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20 21 22 38 M
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P R O C E B D I'N G S yx J.
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INVESTIGATOR:
This is an interview of~
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Mr. Russell --lfirst name is spelled.R'U S S E L L --
4 middle initial A'.
-- Rehfeld, spelled R as in". Roger
'5 E'H F E L D.
6 Mr. Rehfeld'is an. Electrical Quality Control
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Engineer employed lby the.,Bechtel Power Corporation at
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-the.Palo Verd.e. Nuclear Generating Station'.
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-8 This int'erview is tak1ng' place in the NRC office 1
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the Construc' tion. Building:on-10 at the Palo Verde hite i
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11 June 30,,1982, and the interview began at 1:48 p.m.
l 12 Present to conduct.this interview from the U.S.
~
13 Nuclear Regulatory Commission is Mr.
E.J. Power and'
(
14 myself, 'Owen C. Shackleton.-
Both of us are. investigators 15 for-the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission, assigned to 16 '
the Region 5 office in Walnut Creek, California.
17
'Now prior to tape recording the interview, I8 Mr. Rehfeld agreed to be placed under oath and was advised 18 prior to that time of the applicable Federal Statutues.
20 Mr. Rehfeld, do we have permission to tape 21 record your interview?
22 MR. REliFELD :
Yes, sir.
23 INVESTIGATOR:
Okay, Russ, one of the 24 allegations we have is that there are timon when
- th 26 terminations are being made, and the QC Inspector is not t
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completed,. and'then.the_QC; Inspector either has to buy'it 3'
. gff_ without having seen the work ' completed, or he has to.
4-ask'that:it b'e terminated'an'd terminated in.his presence.
5
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. Now I' don 't know' if that is true. -We just 6
learned-today thgt,approximately,two, weeks ago, they ch'anged how you fellods w'ere 'to opd$a'the',and = you were to 7
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be present during, a ~ termination.;.
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- r; Would you give.us som9 background, so that we t
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I' know what has been going on.
II' MR.
REHFELD:- You are primarily interest'ed in 12 -
those that.are_ safety-related.
.y 13 '
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INVESTIGATOR:
Safety-related.
MR.- REHFELD:
(Inaudible.)
That is what we 16 -
work on.-
As far as witnessing an actual termination, the 16 only' time we need to be present, physically present, is I7 when they're doing a lugging of.a --
crimping a lug that is will not be visible af ter the termination is complete, if I'
they are going to put a shrink over it or'something like that, where we can witness and physically see that the 21 conductor is going.into the lug and that it is secure and 22 that it'.s not split.
23 As far as.other terminations, we don't really
.have to physically be.there when the electrician doos 26 tha work, because it is visibic to us after the work is
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complete.
We'do' inspect, to the best.of my knowledge, 73 2
every' termination before1we accept it.
4 3
INVESTIGATOR: 'Okay.
So the allegation, the 4
party who made it, may not.have been clear on what your..
5 job responsibility was, because they were making an 6
inference that yo,u people;.were being: for,ced to accept it
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7 without being able to witness the termination.-
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So by-fyour testimony,1 y the procedure you b
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are following,,that,'s.not correct.-
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MR. REHFELD:
No.
11 INVESTIGATOR:.Ek) the other question,' I guess, 12 I would have at this point, which'is another allegation, I([)
is that there have been times when your people and possibly 13 14 yourself have been ' intimidated -by supervision, the foremen 15 or superintendents.
16 Have you ever had any problems,like~that?
17 MR. REliFELD :
Never.
18' INVESTIGATOR:
For the-record, would you_ express 18 in your own words what the working conditions and 1
relationships are that you experience out on the job.
l 21 MR. RElIFELD:
The only ones I can speak for are 22 my own, and I feel that I have a very good rapport with l-23 all the craft that I work with, and they believe in my 24 l
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. judgment.
If I feel something is incorrect, they very
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25 rarely will question it or doubt it.
And I have the I
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o 5-I mgc-5 fullest cooperation from all the electricians, from their.
2 foremen, from the supervisors, all the way up and down the 3
line.
And I really have had absolutely no trouble with 4
anyone.
5 INVESTIGATOR:
Gene, do you have --
6 INVESTIGATOR:' L Yes.
lAre you aware of any
~
7
--situations where there is the possibility of a (inaudible) 1 8
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or damaged condition thatihas' occurred?"
9 MR. REHFELD: ?I imagine [that'those things do 10 happen, because we're dealing with --
.11 INVESTIGATOR:
Yes, okay.
12 MR. REHFELD:
-- a thousand assumptions.
')
13 INVESTIGATOR:
llave you ever had any problems I4 to go back and relook at something that you have previously 15 inspected?
Ifi MR. REliFELD :
Yes.
17 INVESTIGATOR:
Under what circumstances?
18 MR. RE!!FELD :
Well, either there was a change, 19 an engineering change, in a termination and/or a rework 20 of part of the raceway where they've had an on-land 21 determination.
22 INVESTIGATOR:
This would be under the normal 23 procedure for filing of changes.
24 (3
MR. REIIFELD :
Yes.
)
25 INVESTIGATOR:
llave you ever specifically had
6 I
an occasion here, say, a card was, in fact, lost, it S
ack to the craft, they then prepared a new card absequently it goes to QC for signing off.
iciang' ff m th0ir Have you ever heard of that situation?
Y UP and "U the MR. REHFELD :
No, that's -- no.
I don't even
> trouy3* With a how that would work.
s INVESTIGAT'OR:
No,'I don't either.
But you see
.at is occurring under certain circumstances, because
[ any nere are a number of termination cards, being estimated Q (innug,ble) at somewhere around forty thousand --
INVESTIGATOR:
44,000.
hin98 do INVESTIGATOR -- from what I'm told --
INVESTIGATOR:
Or 50,000.
INVESTIGATOR:
44,000, six thousand of which Is.
are last year, --
- fblem, MR. REHFELD:
Right.
Prayj us1F INVESTIGATOR:
-- because of the volume of l
those cards,even after QC is finished, they go back 8
(inaudible) to the system, for whatever reason, one or i
20 two get lost, in those situations, they regenerate or
- F90, 21 make a new card, which means now we need all the necessary lrk 22 signatures and signing off (inaudible)...
23 MR. REHFELD:
Well, for myself, I haven't had 24 any situation like that, and now I'm experiencing working with the cards in the office, and sometimes there is
5 1
mgc-5 fullest cooperation from all the electricians, from their O
2 foremen, from the supervisors, all the way up and down the 3
line.
And I really have had absolutely no trouble with 4
anyone.
5 INVESTIGATOR:
Geno, do you have --
6 INVESTIGATOR:
Yes.
Are you aware of any 7
situations where there is the possibility of a (inaudible) 8 or damaged condit' ion that has occurred?
9 MR. RE!!FELD :
'I imagine that those things do 10 happen, because we're dealing with --
11 INVESTIGATOR:
Yes, okay.
12 MR. RElIFELD:
-- a thousand assumptions.
13 INVESTIGATOR:
llave you ever had any problems 14 to go back and relook at something that you have previously 15 inspected?
16 MR. REllFELD :
Yes.
17 INVESTIGATOR:
Under what circumstances?
18 MR. RE!!PELD :
Well, either there was a change, I9 an engineering change, in a termination and/or a rework 20 of part of the raceway where they've had an on-land 21 determination.
22 INVESTIGATOR:
This would be under the normal 23 procedure for filing of changes.
24 MR. REllPELD :
Yes.
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1 25 INVESTIGATOR:
llave you ever specificallv had l
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mgc-6 an occasion where, say, a card was, in fact, lost, it O
2 went back to the craft, they then prepared a new card 3
and subsequently it goes to QC for signing off.
4 Have you ever heard of that situation?
5 MR. REHFELD:
No, that's -- no.
I don't even 6
know how that would work.
7 INVESTIGATOR:
No,1I don't either.
But you see 8
what is occurring under certain circumstances, because 8
there are a number of termination cards, being estimated 10 at somewhere around forty thousand --
11 INVESTIGATOR:
44,000.
12 INVESTIGATOR -- from what I'm told --
13 INVESTIGATOR:
Or 50,000.
14 INVESTIGATOR:
44,000, six thousand of which 15 are last year, 16 MR. REHFELD:
Right.
17 INVESTIGATOR:
-- because of the volume of 18 those cards,even after QC is finished, they go back 19 (inaudible) to the system, for whatever reason, one or two get lost, in those situations, they regenerate or 21 make a new card, which means now we need all the necessary 22 signatures and signing off (inaudible)...
23 MR. RE!!FELD :
Well, for myself, I haven't had 24 any situation like that, and now I'm experiencing working 25 with the cards in the office, and somntimes there is
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2 you know, are Just gone.
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INVESTIGATOR:
No, I'm not inferring -- but
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4 I was very much interested in, how does it get back to 5
QC, so that, you know -- you didn't do the termination;
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6 John Doe did it - -apparently now, a new' card, in some 7
cases -- we've talked to some of' the electricians where
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8 this occurred.
They get a card, they go look at it, 9
(inaudible).
Now they o in 't want their name (inaudible) 10 on that termination card, so they reterminate it.
11 Now if they reterminate it, that means it has 12 to be re-QC'd.
13 MR. REHFELD:
If they re -- are you talking 14 about reterminating or rebanding?
15 INVESTIGATOR:
Well, the physical --
16 MR. REHFELD:
Well, banding would be not to change 17 the actual crimp that is on the wire at that point.
It 18 would moraly.be if there was a screw connector onto a 19 terminal block, lifting the screw, removing the wire, 20 putting the wire back on and screwing it back down.
That 21 would not require the electrician's crimp (inaudible),
22 because he hasn't changed the configuration of anything
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23 that was done prior.
i o 24 INVESTIGATOR:
Under what circumstances can the 25 electrician perform that?
8 I
mgc-8 MR. REHFELD:
Well, if, in routing, if there 2
was a.-- he would not perform it without a card, okay, 3
but the card would just instruct to terminate or reterminate 4
for raceway rework or for replacement of a terminal block, 5
something like that.
6 INVESTIGATOR:
- Okay, now I'm actually referring 7-to an actual retermination where the other termination was 8
cut off, (inaudible), and they do:it all over again.
MR. REHFELD:
Uh-huh.
10 INVESTIGATOR:
Have you heard any facts, rumors 11 or anything --
12 MR. REHFELD :
I have never heard of anyone doing (h
anything' like that without -- as far as I know, without, I8 14 you know, the right paperwork, the right card, because 15 to do that, there would have to be a reason.
The 16 electrician would have to be given a reason why he --
17 INVESTIGATOR:
He's given the reason that the 18 cards are lost, see, and therefore you would have, the 19 end result, the electrician would sign the card.
20 MR. REHFELD:
Uh-huh.
21 INVESTIGATOR:
You know,.(inaudible) a card 22 for termination you knew you effected yesterday (inaudible).
23 "I didn't do it, but it's done.
Wha t do you want me to do 24 with it?"
Well, you either sign the card, or (inaudible)...
25 But in either situation, you now have a new
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card.for work previously completed, all finished and QC'd.
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- Now I'm: interested-in h6w they get back :into the
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I(Inaudible).
And_then the cards'have got to-go
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't makea comment,jyou know,3"It appears.'that we're going back
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-andiredoing work..*."?
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'MR. "RE'HFELD : 'With,all the work that.I've p.
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-handled, all the' cards-I've' handled, I!ve never:run across 8
'that. situation.
10 INVESTIGATOR:
Do you maintain any type of 11-informa'l log?
I MR. REHFELD:
Yes, sir.
We have logs in my.
13' o'fice.
We have logs in'the field office.
f 14 INVESTIGATOR':
By the system?'
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I MR. REHFELD:
By start-up systems,'in the main 16 office, and in.the field'we keep a log _of terminations by 17 y
equipment.
INVESTIGATOR:
-If I come'up with a' card, can p
p.
18 you tell-me who -did it and (inaudible) ?
20~
MR. REHFELD:
I can sure try.
INVESTIGATOR:
I'm not trying to put-you 22 '
.through a lot of~ work.. I am interested in (inaudible).
-23 Hopefully-I am conveying ~to you a correct
, 24 ~
,.A situation.
V) g Have you ever heard of any situation -- well, p
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(inaudible) Lif you didn't know they were doing.it,
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thenEyou wouldn't have'any knowledge-of anyone ever-l
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generating a termination ca'rd for work previously done, 4
JstillLexisting,'where.the electrician signs it under protest.
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MR.~iREHFELd:'lNo.,
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. INVESTIGATOR:
Okay,.then forfall intents and
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by h O < ;-.
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- purposes, that~would'be (inaudible). If you look1at.the f,,+7.,
~3 o rcr-q card, then', _ there'.would ' be n'o reason to ' question any entry
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1 for ' QC (inaudible) to'go back and look at it, it would be L..
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a normal,. completed termination.
There would-be no II' reason'to. question'that. card.
(Inaudible.)
~- 12 l
MR. REHFELD :
Well, the.only thing _that's E J,s
- 13
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missing'on:this is the revisions for the 306 and the 303 specifications.
15 '
. INVESTIGATOR:
I'm not familiar with those.-
t 16 t,
Those are the tech specs?
MR..REHFELD:
Yes, sir.
INVESTIGATOR:
Are'they normallp written down?
MR. REHFELD:
Yes.
20 '
INVESTIGATOR:
Does Engineering do that,.or'does 21'
-QC do that?
s i-MR..REHFELD:
QC can do it.
nngirecring can do it.
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23 INVESTIGATOR:
Either way..
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MR. REHFELD:
They are always working on the
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,3 same provisions, always keeping (inaudible).
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1 imgc-ll INVESTIGATOR:
And the way I understand it, then,.
2' inL this case, this would-be Joe Crawford - -(inaudible) 3
-- he would be --
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MR. REHFELD:
That wasn't Joe Crawford.
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. INVESTIGATOR:
Th'at wasnE^ Joe; okay.
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MR.hREHFELD:- He's onsvadstion.
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. INVESTIGATOR: ;So. either.way,. by the time 8.
t' (inaudible) is finished off, it.should be entirely
- g complete.
10 MR. REHFELD:
Yes.
When the card is. totally
'll bought off, the termination should be totally complete.
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' INVESTIGATOR:
Let us burn us a copy,before
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you go, and I would appreciate it if you can1(inaudible) 14
.you have.
15 MR. REHFELD:
Is that= Unit 1 or-Unit 2?
16 -
INVESTIGATOR:
These are Unit 1.
u 17 MR. REHFELD:. Unit 1, okay.
INVESTIGATOR:
-The allegations almost are all on Unit. 1 that we have now.
INVESTIGATOR:
In reference to termination cards, 21 do'you-have any knowledgeoof any QC inspector ever actually putting his -signature on a t'ermination card for work that M --
he did not do?
24
- g-MR. REHFFLD
You hear a lot of rumors.
25 INVESTIGATOR:
I know you do.
But I am interested
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card.
i 3
Are you knowledgeable of any incidento where 4
quality plan, safety-related people have been' improperly 5
or incorrectly signing out (inaudible).... That would be 6
contrary to some procedure.
I'm not interested in (inaudible 7
...overall, any procedure?
MR. REHFELD:
No, nothing outside of ( in audible) '.
8 9
INVESTIGATOR:
Are you familiar, from a QC 10 point of view, where individuals that could include (inaudible 11 personnel, that are improperly determinating, contrary to 12 determination Procedures?
13 MR. RElIFELD :
This, I have to say, is strictly 14 from what I have heard, because most of my work was 15 conducted in Unit 2, and now I'm in the main office.
But 16 I have heard some of our QC personnel from Unit 1 say that they have found start-up going in and determinating and 17 18 without --
19 INVESTIGATOR:
Without the card?
20 MR. REliFELD :
Without an-SNP.'
21 INVESTIGATOR:
Yes.
What is an SWP?
22 MR. REHFELD:
A start work permit.
23 INVESTIGATOR:
Oh, start work permit, okay.
24 That word is a new terminology.
25 MR. RElIFELD :
- I'm sorry.
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,mgc 13 INVESTIGATOR:
No, that's all right.
2 MR. REHFELD:
That's the way we are.
3 INVESTIGATOR:
Just bear with some of our questions.
4 We're investigators; we're not electricians, and we're not 5
engineers, (inaudible).
6 Who could we possibly talk to, QC personel, who 7
might be able -(inaudible) ?
You say some people have made 8
comments about: this'.
O MR. REHFELD:
I think the other gentlemen that 10 you have down there, Bill Burdick, he might be able to give 11 you some information on that, because he works on a lot 12 of those systems.
13 INVESTIGATOR:
You did indicate _that you have j
.j I4 a responsibility.for QC, (inaudible), inspecting these bolts 15 on (inaudible) for terminations, correct?
16 MR. REHFELD:
Yes.
17 INVESTIGs. TOR:
You have done that yourself?
18 MR ' REHFl!LD :
Yes.
19 INVESTIGATOR:
And you are physically present, I mean --
f 21 MR. REHFELD:
Yes.
They torque it, and we're 22 there~ when they tape it.
We'.re there when they. heat shrink 23 it.
We're there --
24 INVESTIGATOR:
Okay.
Is that true of everything, 25 (inaudible).
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When it s. torqued'?:
a;r cM[R. TREHFELD:
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'For.the whole. process.
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~aEQC' representative there,Jto the best-~of'your knowledge,
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- for;all" bolting'of lugs?-
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MR. REHFELD ':
he s...Anything that's: torqued, v
'6-we;mustiwi5 ness,7--
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Yes.
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-MR.
REHFELD: -.if we.'do it.
If.they torquetit
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~8 withoutustbeingj.there,fIhave'themreport:it.
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INVESTIGNTOR:
"All"right.
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- MR. REHFELD:
That's - '
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3 212 f DINVESTIGATOR:.hre'you aware of any situati'on-
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- whereca QC engineer should not'necessarily have been; l
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.-present when1--
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-MR.'REHFELD:
~No','I'm not.
INVESTIGATOR: (Are 'ou aware.thab theylhave n
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- situa'tions in"which they -- electricians,.now'-- have put
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.a -one-bolt ' lug. onto a t!wo^- bolt lug?'-Have:you((inaudible)....
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' 18 MR. ~ REHFELD :
A one-bolt' lug?.
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. INVESTIGATOR:
Yes.
'For. instance, say, one 1 7( ' _
u 21 coming :of f. of,. as. 'I understand', of f : a motor to a! particular -
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p, i 22, hedd }.and b'ecabse of [thes construction of-it, they-have a J
oneh$oltlduh} to[be' gin 'with aridi, okay, you've got a field
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- 24 cable coming..in there with a two-bolt lug, have
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Lwitnessedra. termination
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~ 1MR?REHFELD:: ' The'onlyL,ones-I've witnessedare
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.one-bolt and one-bolt.:
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x INVESTIGATOR:
One-bolt?and one-bb'lt.
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k Have you bee'nJaware f or 'been hresent when, say; they '
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[did-have fa, two-bolt 1ug, as I understand, -(inaudible). -
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proced$dallrequirements where they can go'through and ' sever
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.'or cut [it-and shorten a two'-b'olt lugro'a one-bolt' lug by
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8' meeting the.necessary parameters.and esthblishing --
~
MR. REHFELD:
I have'seen that.
w INVESTIGATOR:' But'you haven't.actualiy seen them 10 '
11
- t$kefa two-bolt lug and put it together with a one-bolt ilug?
12
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MR. REHFELD:
No,-I haven't.
-A.
13 '
INVESTIGATOR:
H'as.QC ever-been involved-.in an.
}I4 inspection of'O-rings fo'r a field cable enteringa cabinet--
~
i 15 -
.beginning[(inaudible) ?
'16
- MR. I REHFEL'D
- , Ana0 ring?
I7 '
.It would be al conduit ~
--INVESTIGATOR :
Yes.
5' 18
. entering into, say, a motor-controlled --
f l9.
MR. REHFELD:
Are you talking'about a-nipple s
" '~
. entering.the-cabinet?
c.
F
.21'~
~ INVESTIGATOR:
I. don,',t know.
What's a nipple?-
- > t L ';s 4
o,N J.
- . NU'#A#1~-
I 4
22~
MR. REHFELD:
Well, for' instance, if you have'
,..c nn Talcondu[ tor.flNx(hnterinha. cabinet through the top or 3
t!he bot m, where we. allow,them to pull wire, it has toihave 1
>1 e
- ,,y.
25 a bushing,:a-nylon bushi'ng, or'some facsimile to'a nylon-n
+
m an 7
+
m
...m.
m
16 1
bush'ing, to make a soft edge so the cable will not be mgc 16 2
-damaged.
3~
INVESTIGATOR:
'No, those are not specifically --
4 they are very similar.
We are interested in those systems 5
where cabinets are located in water systems where they 6
must' maintain water integrity to the electrical paneling 7
and therefore require some type of an 0-ring.
8 MR. REIIFELD :
Okay, I know what you're talking 9
about.
I understand.
10 I -- again, this was down in Unit 1, and I was 11 pulled out of Unit 1 and put in Unit 2 before-we got really 12 involved in it.
But there was a yellow sealer type bushing 13 that they would use, and in cabinets that were already 14 sealed, they would use RTV, room temperature vulcanizer, 15 which is waterproof, stays flexible, and that would be 16 used as a sealant around the --
17 INVESTIGATOR.:
Is_that a QC function to ensure 18 that they use that?
19 MR. REliFELD :
We don't have any (inaudible).
20 For our particular staff?-
21 INVESTIGATOR:,Yes.
22 MR. REliFELD :
We are electrical cable pull and 23 termination.
Thhn it goes into raceway, and raceway 24 would~have final buy-off on that.
7~
t
)
25 INVESTIGATOR:
llave you ever been involved in
II 17 I
mgc 17 the evaluation of damaged conduit where they, in fact, have 2
had a requirement to splice a safety-related cable?
3 MR. REHFELD:
No.
INVESTIGATOR: ~Are they allowed to splice 5
safety-related cable?
6 MR. REHFELD:
No.
The only place where anything 7
similar to that can be done is inside a cabinet itself.
INVESTIGATOR:
(Inaudible.)
INVESTIGATOR:
Have you ever heard any rumors to 10 the effect that any quality class cable being damaged by II slag, by rollers (inaudible), and what would be his disposition of the cable?
13 I )
MR. REHFELD:
Well, any time we find any damaged I4 cable, we red-tag it, write an NCR specifying what the 15 damcge is, what the nonconformance is, to the best of our 16 ability --
INVESTIGATOR:
Right.
MR. REHFELD : -- and send it to the field for 19 discipline, field engineering, and the resident engineers 20 for disposition, either spare that cable or we pull another 21 cable over it or pull: that cable out and pull another cable 22 in.
But it.would not be used if it was damaged.
INVESTIGATOR:
In reference specifically then to p
roller slag; had that been a common occurrence or
,i 25 infrequent or --
18 1-mgc 18.
MR. REHFELD:
Unfortunately all too common, 2
becausc --
3 INVESTIGATOR:
How frequent?
4' (Pause.)
5 INVESTIGATOR:
I'm just trying to get an idea.
6
-7 m not trying to pin you down now.
7 INVESTIGATOR:
One a week?
O INVESTIGATOR:
One a week, two a month?
k We' re interested in the safety aspect-of it.
10 We're trying to get an idea of the size of the problem 11 (inaudible).
12 MR. REHFELD:
I would say maybe two or three a 13 month that are located -- first of all, it is extremely 14 difficult to locate every foot of wire that has been run, 15 because where some of the welders work, accessibility is 16 so remote, and we have instructed everyone that whenever 17 they weld (inaudible), they should have welding blankets 18 laid out, and they do cooperate.
However, sometimes the 19 welding blanket might not be in the best configuration either.
It might havei a hole in it, you know, and we're 21' all human 'and-(inaudible)',
22 INVESTIGATOR:
To the best of your knowledge, 23 then, they are all (inaudible).
24 MR. REHFELD:
Yes, yes.
25 INVESTIGATOR:
And properly dispositioned.
p 19 I
mgc 19 MR. REHFELD:
Yes.
2 INVESTIGATOR:. For our own, particularly my own, 3
.-understanding, could you go through the sequence of the 4
history of'a termination card?
5 Now I'll start it off, and you stop me if I'm 6
wrong.
7 I understand Engineering first -
it comes out 8
of Engineering initially.
9 MR. REHFELD:
Well, it is first generated by the 10 computer.
11 INVESTIGATOR:
Okay.
Okay.
12 MR. REHFELD:
And then it's sent to Engineering.
13
-They receive the whole card, which has a tear-off tab which 14 contains (inaudible).
15 INVESTIGATOR:
We've seen that (inaudible) with 16 some tags on'it.
17 Then that goes to the Superintendent for Electrical 18 for the disposition of who is going to do the work.
i 19 MR. REHFELD:
Yes.
20 INVESTIGATOR:
Then it goes to the GF, and the GF 21 then gives it to one of his -- I'm talking about tehminations,oficourse-_.oneofhisthreeforementhey 22 23 now have.
And then the_f_oreman gives it to the journeyman 24 electrician who performs the work.
And when the work is
,~
t s,/
25 completed and the journeyman has signed it off, then I
m-20 I
mgc 20 underst -d it goes back to the foreman.
'2 What's the next step after that, Russ?
3-MR. REHFELD:
After the foreman gets it, he 4
turns'it back -- it just goes back up the line again until 5
^
it goes back into Engineering.
6 INVESTIGATOR:
So it goes back to the 7
Superintendent?
8 Where do you folks get into it?
Where does QC 8
come in?
10 MR. REIIFELD :
We can come in anywhere.
We can 11 do an in-process.
In other words, if we're walking through 12 the unit and we see a terminator working, we can ask him 13
)
if he has any cards that are done, and we can inspect them 14 right there, in which case we would leave on item open.
15 We won't buy the entire card.
We will leave one item open 16 to ensure that we will get the card back into our office 17 for our records, so we can log it in.
18 Also when the termination is totally complete, 19 it goes back to the engineers.
20 INVESTIG ATOR: ; Pardon me for interrupting.
But t
21 when it comes to your office and you folks then log it in r-your records, thenitgoes'tbEngineeringfromyouroffice?
22 23
'MR.^REIIFELD:
,No.
Once we log the card, once 24 we log it of f, if it's accepted, it doesn't go back to m
i j
25 Engineering.
Once we accept the card, it goes to the
21 1
mgc 21 vault, okay.
2
~
(Inaudible.)
INVESTIGATOR:
3 INVESTIGATOR:
So Engineering.doesn't come into 4
it again.--
5 MR. REHFELD:
Well, they will --
6 INVESTIGATOR: -- normally?
MR. REHFELD:
-- they will receive the card under 8
several circumstances.
If there is a reject on the card, 8
we give it back to Engineering.
If there was some' sort of 10 a change, we would attach the cards.
If there was a hold on it, or say there was a system that had a red tag on it, 12 Engineering would hold that card, 13 INVESTIGATOR:
Okay.
MR. REHFELD: -- because we couldn't buy it off.
If there's a red tag on it, we can't buy it off, and 16 Engineering can't do anything with it, so they just hold it.
I But everybody gets the card back and forth.
But 18 once we accept the card and we buy it of f, it doesn't go I8 back to Engineering.
It goes to the vault.
It's all 20 logged into our records,, and,it goes to the vault.
INVESTIGATOR: :Now you folks in Quality Control, 22 you would never get'a card until it's been processed?
23 MR. REHFELD: I I don't know what you mean by 24 "proce s se.d. "
^
INVESTIGATOR:
Well, I mean it's gone through
22 mgc'22 1
-the steps, and the el'ectrician has signed it off.
2 MR. REliFELD :
Oh, we can get a card before the 3
electrician signs it off.
We can stand there and watch 4
the electrician do the work, which is what I was talking 5~
about by an in-process.
6 INVESTIGATOR:
Okay.
7 MR. REHFELD:
Which is not uncommon.
8 INVESTIGATOR:
Well, one of the things I'm fishing 9
~at, one of the problems that turned up in this investigation 10 is that the computer program, as Bechtel has it set up now, 11 the computer was not programmed to maintain an audit of.
12
. every card.
And by that, I mean a card will be issued, and 13 the computer will show the date of issuance, and if the card
)
a 14 is lost and then Engineering requests a second card to 15 -
replace it, the record of the first card is erased forever, 16 and the record only shows the date of issuance of the second 17 card.
18 So we found that Bechtel and.ourselves, the 19 investigators, we have no way to know how many cards were 20 issued.
There,is no written. record.
And what I was 21 pursuing.with you is an attempt to see whether maybe there 22 was a way, and no one thought of to tell how many cards 23 were' issued, whether you folks maintained any record of the 24 initial issuance and any sequential records.
7x
(
25 MR. REHFELD:
Well, the only thing that we have
23 I
mgc 23 started, and we've been doing it now for.several: months,
/
2 is we updated our log, where we would log in the terminations, s
3 and every termination card --
4 IN\\ESTIGATOR:
Okay, we will pull a card.
Right 5
here it has a Revision Number.
6 INVESTIGATOR:
Uh-huh.
7 MR. RElIFELD :
We are now entering that Revision 8
Number in our log, along with the Determination Number,
9 so that we would know -- let's say we got an updated 10
. revision, we would know --
11 INVESTIGATOR:
Uh-huh.
12 MR. REliFELD : -- okay, we ' ve had Rev. 10, now 13
)
we've got Rev. 11, and we can bump the two and see if it's 14 just a paper change, or if there's a physical change in 15 the landing points, we'll 'go back out and take a look at it.
16 INVESTIGATOR:
If there's a physical change.
17 INVESTIGATOR:
Well, if I understand you 18 correctly, can you tell whether or not you have a repeat 19 with any loggings?
20 MR.' 'REllFELD : ~ It depends on when those were 21 issued.. As I said, we've only started doing this for 22 a couple of months.
23 IN ESTIGATOR:
Oh, okay.
This one goes back to 24 g.,
23 November
'81.
)
25 MR. REllFELD :
Not to my knowledge.
We wouldn't
e-24 I
mgc 24 have a Revision Number on it.
~
INVESTIGATOR:
(Inaudible.)
3 INVESTIGATOR:
- Again, we're only talking about 4
Class Q.
5 INVESTIGATOR:
(Inaudible.)
INVESTIGATOR:
I have another area I wanted to 7
address with you, Russ, and that was your comments and 8
your experience -- you've been here two years -- what type t
8 of training do t' hey give to the Electrical Quality Control Engineers?
MR. REHPELD:
Well, when you first come in, they 12' give you all the work plan procedures and quality control 13
()
instructions, which lays out step-by-step how to perform-each 'anction.
Then you read the specifications.
Then 15 you're introduced step-Ly-step to each section of the 16 functions that you'll be doing.
You're taken into the field 17 and shown around, how to read raceway, what to look for, 18 what's correct, what's incorrect, and design details and 18 things like that, and-howrto pull cable, how to prevent 20 cable damage, things to watch out for.
21
'And after awhile it'just becomes second nature.
22 INVESTIGATOR:' How long is this on-the-job type 23 ttaining -- take place before you're Lurned loose as a
(~~3 regular inspector?
Is there a set time, o r --
/
M MR. REHFELD:
I don't believe there is a set time.
25 mqc 25 I believe it's as the individual learns.
2 INVESTIGATOR:
As he or she grasps --
3 MR. REllFELD :
Right.
I don't think anybody, you 4
know, learns at the same rate.
5 INVESTIGATOR:
Are you a Level l?
6 MR. RElIFELD :
Level 2.
7 INVESTIGATOR:
Do the QC Inspectors belong to a 8
union, or is it a non-union?
9 (Pause.)
10 INVESTIGATOR:
We have some areas where we work --
11 this is as a sideline -- where the QC Inspectors belong to 12 the same union as the craft.
13 MR. REIIFELD :
That's interesting.
14 (Pause.)
15 INVESTIGATOR:
'I don't have any further questions.
16 INVESTIGATOR:
I have a couple.
17 INVESTIGATOR:
Okay.
18 INVESTIGATOR:
I might have missed it when you 19 went 'over the termination cards.
20 As a general rule, do QC Inspectors take the cards 21 with them to inspect?
22 MR. REliFELD :
'Yes.
23 INVESTIGATOR:
In all cases?
Are there ever 24 any situations where they might go out looking and 25 come back -- ( end of tape, Side 1).
26 I
MR. REIIFELD :
As a rule, you're going to take the mgc 26 O
card with you, because that's what you're going by.
You're 2
3 buying what's on that card.
4 INVESTIGATOR:
But there is nothing in that 5
procedure as far as when you -- (inaudible) --
6 MR. REliFELD :
No, no.
7 INVESTIGATOR:
You said you've been here three 8
years.
9 MR. REI!FELD :
Yes.
10 INVESTIGATOR:
llave you ever -- are you aware of any situation in which an electrician. allegedly was told 11 to splice a quality class cable, and now or subsequent, 12 13 a QC Inspector determined, yes-or-no, he could or could 14 not?
15 MR. REliFELD :
No.
16 INVESTIGATOR:
(Inaudible.)
17 MR. RElIFELD :
No.
18 INVESTIGATOR:
If that question was directed to 19 you now by an electrician, "Can we --
20 MP. REIIFELD :
You can't splice Q cable.
21 INVESTIGATOR:
Do you feel that the training 22 for QC Inspectors or Engineers is adequate?
23 MR. REliFELD :
Yes.
24 INVESTIGATOR:
In reference to executing 25 nonconformance reports, is that done by Engineering, or
w 27' I
mgc 2'7
-is that done by QC, or both?
2 MR. REIIFELD :
I'm sorry?
/
3 INVESTIGATOR:
The execution of nonconformance 4
reports.
5 MR. REIIFELD :
You mean in writing?
6 INVESTIGATOR:
Yes, right.
7 MR. REHFELD:
It's done by Engineering and Quality 8
Control.
9 INVESTIGATOR:
llave you had any problems as far 10 as when you feel it should be done?
I realize we got to, 11 before we started, intimidation.
But you feel like 12 you're qualified -- not hindered by, in executing your work 13
[J i
by putting a red tag on (inaudible).
14 MR. RElIFELD :
No.
15 INVESTIGATOR:
Anyone else?
IIas there ever been 16 any situation where someone felt that he was taken 17 advantage of by Production by overridindJ a
QC Engineer on a 18 red tag?
19
'MR.
RElIFELD : ' I'm ilot quite sure that I understand 20 the question.
21 INVESTIGATOR:
.Okay.
Are you aware of any 22 situation where any of the other QC Engineers had red-tagged 23 an item and then Production simply, either going through 24
,o Engineering overriding a decision which had been made by the Q) 25 Quality Control Engineer, which would (inaudible)?
28 I
mgc 28 MR. RElIFELD:
If you mean like if there was a red i
2 tag hung on something, and Engineering or craft --
3 INVESTIGATOR:
Yes.
4 MR. REIIFELD :
-- disregarded the tag --
5 INVESTIGATOR:
Well, not disregarded, no.
6 (Inaudible.)
But in lieu of the QC Engineer -- we're 7
screwing around -- or I'm screwing around, and I put it in, 8
and you come along and say, "No, that's improper," and 8
you red-tag it, and he comes along with a Construction 10 Foreman, Superintendent, and says, "The hell with that noise.
11 Take off the red tag," and we have to go to Engineering to 12 get you to remove the red tag.
That's the type of sit'uation 13
-(
)
7.m talking about.
w./
14 MR. REliFELD :
If there is something that we feel --
15 or I feel is wrong, I speak for myself.
If there is something 16 that I feel is wrong to the point where it requires a 17 nonconformance and a red tag, then that is what is done.
IO INVESTIGATOR:
And you get support from both sides?
4 19 MR. REliFELD :
Yes, I do.
The nonconformances
^
that I've written, I don't believe I've had one that was 21 invalidated.
22 INVESTIGATOR:
Do they -- this is aside -- do 23 they account for all nonconformance reports?
24 em MR. REliFELD :
Yes.
(
)
v 25 INVESTIGATOR:
They have someone review it, and
7 L
29 1
then (inaudible).
mgc 29 2
MR. REllFELD :
From the moment that you write 3
the NCR, before he can audit it, before it's --
4 INVESTIGATOR:
(Interposing.)
.5 MR. REHFELD:
-- you've seen the violation and you write it up, and before anybody else sees it, you take 6
7 it to the NCR log, and it gets a number.
And then they 8
get the original plus two copies, and then they generate 9
it from there.
10 INVESTIGATOR:
I don't have any more questions.
11 INVESTIGATOR:
There is only one area that I wanted to cover, because you've been around a lot and 12
')
13 checking cable.
,1 14 One of the allegations we have, Russ, is that there was more than the usual use of controlled drugs on 15 16 this site.
I'm talking about marijuana and hashish, 17 cocaine and the different amphetamines.
18 What has been your observation over the last 19 two years?
20 iMR. RE11FELD :
Well, I don't know what you 21 consider as-a normal: amount, but --
22 INVESTIGATOR:
Well, just whatever you have 23 observed or heard.
24 MR. REllFELD :
Compared to what goes on in other
-s M
places, I don't feel that's true.
I mean, once and awhile
'v'
r 30.
1 you walk around a corner, and you might get a strange smell mgc 30 2
or something, but I have-never seen anybody that I would 3
even think wa's remotely under the influence of drugs or 4
alcohol or anything else that was working out here, during 5
working hours.
6 INVESTIGATOR:
We've been told a couple areas 7
that are supposed to have been areas -- or are supposed to 8
be areas where the smoking of marijuana has been the most 9
common.
One of them was in Unit 1, and you worked in Unit 1 10 until relatively recently; is that correct?
11 MR. REliFELD :
Well, about ten months ago.
12 INVESTIGATOR:
So you worked for approximately
~x 13 fourteen months in Unit 1.
(d 14 One of the areas -- and I'm not familiar with 15 she plant, so bear with me a littic bit with my maybe 16 inadequate description -- but there is a cable tray area, 17 apparently, underneat the control room, and there are apparently pe,netrations\\from.the cables that run up into 18 19 the control panels through:there, and the smoke scoped up N
through there pretty strongly at different periods of time, 21 we've been told.
And the users of the marijuana apparently 22 were laying in the cable trays.
23 Do you know the area I'm talking about?
24 MR. REllFELD :
The only place that you're x
w./
M describing would be the 120 spreader room, because that's
~
31.
p.
I I
mgc 31 where your cable tray is underneath the.cquipment.
You know,
(
you have vertical risers that will go up to the floor
)
2 3
penetrations and the (inaudible).
4 INVESTIGATOR:
llave you ever heard of QC 5
Inspectors going down to the -- is it called Sun Acres?
6 What's it called?
They laydown area.
7 INVESTIGATOR:
Sunshine Acres.
8 INVESTIGATOR:
Sunshine Acres.
8 INVESTIGATOR:
Or Sunshine Park.
10 MR. REIIFELD :
I don't even know where it is.
II I've been here two years, and I don't know where it is.
12 (Laughter.)
13 j
INVESTIGATOR:
We've been told that that's been I4 a relatively popular spot for engineers to smoke pot, and 15 some QC Inspectors.
16 MR. REIIFELD:
I don't know.
I don't even know I
where it is.
18
-INVESTIGATO'R :
Okay.
19 From your observations, Russ, on this plant and being responsible for a very important part of the QC 21 inspection, how would you characterize the work that you 22 see being done?
23 MR. REIIFELD :
Very profensional.
24 INVESTIGATOR:
You're satisfied?
, )
25 MR. REllFELD :
Ninety percent of everything that
32 L
I mgc 32
.I inspect, ninety-five percent of everything that I inspect, 2
I would say is done in a very professional, very good, safe 3
manner.
A 4
Now whatever we find that does not' fit that.isasent 5
back until it does meet that remark.
6 INVESTIGATOR:
llow would you characterize the 7
amount of time you have to do your work?
Is it adequate, 8
inadequate?
Are you pushed?
9 MR. REllFELD :
No, I'm not pushed.
Depending again 10 on what functions of work you are talking about, --
11 INVESTIGATOR:
I'm talking about the inspections.
12 MR.'RElIFELD:
Of determinations?
13
/
)
INVESTIGATOR:
Right.
14 MR. REHFELD:
There's no pressure.
There is 15
~ There is no, "You have to do so many today."
no rush.
16 There's no quota system.
You can take as long.as.it takes 17 you to do the job right.
18 INVESTIGATOR $
Ilow about your observations on the 19 part a the journeymen wiremen?
Are they under great 20
- pressure, or do they.have adequate time?
21 MR. RE!IFELD :
I feel that they have adequate time.
22 INVESTIGATOR:
llave you ever heard them complain 23 to you about it?
24 MR. RE!!FELD :
"ou're always going to hear complaints.
25 (Laughter.)
l
3 33 I
mgc 33 MR. REHFELD':
They always complain that they feel 2
that they'have to do.too much, but it's everybody's 3
judgment, what is too much, and if you, you know, stand 4
around for a couple hours and smoke cigarettes and drink 5
coffee, I don't think you're being pushed.
6 INVESTIGATOR:
Right.
7 And you're working at -- you've been assigned to 8
Unit 2.
9 MR. REHFELD:
Well, now I'm assigned to the main 10 office.
11 INVESTIGATOR:
The main office.
12 Is it Unit 2, Gene, where we had the problem of 13 the unistruts?-
14 INVESTIGATOR:
Unstruts, yes, 15 INVESTIGATOR:
In the lower levels of Unit 2, 16 we've been given an allegation that there is some animosity 17 that has grown up+between some of the craft people and QC 18 and some of the craft people and their supervision.
And 19 what -- the 'sto'ry given to us is that there are unistrut 20 brackets that are put'in'to< support the' cable trays and 21 the piping around them, and these are welded to embedded 22 plates.
23 I haven't been over to see it, Russ, so if my 24
,f.
description is inadequate, you'll understand -- and the 25 QC Inspectors that inspect the unistruts, they have a die s
,...,..;.,;,,,~..;,,n
..,,..,. es..,...,,w x.n e. - ;. :.w
.. z :... x ; r _.
l 34 mgc'34 1
that is their inspector's symbol, which apparently they 2
take and strike, I assume with a hammer, and it makes 3
their mark on the embed plate.
IIave you ever seen what I'm talking about?
l 4
5 l
MR. REllFELD :
No, I've never seen that.
I've l
6 never seen that.
7 INVESTIGATOR:
Well, the story we're getting is 8
that some of these craftsmen are coming along and changing 9
the unistrut after it's been bought off, and setting it up 10 so it doesn't meet design in an attempt to get the QC 11 Inspector fired or a couple of the foremen that they're 12 teed off at, because they have reportedly terminated 13 craftsmen for too many early-outs, too long coffee breaks.
14 IIave you ever heard any scuttlebutt about this 15 type of allegation.
16 MR. REliFELD :
This is the first time I've heard I
17 of it.
To my knowledge, there is no -- the only QC stamp 18 that I know of are the stamps that we carry in our pockets 19 that are rubber.
20 INVESTIGATOR: 'Well, these could be QC Inspectors 21 for welding.
22 MR. REIIFELD :
Well that's a whole different 23 ballgame.
I know a friend of mine who is a welding 24 inspector, he carries the same stamp I do.
O 25 INVESTIGATOR:
And as f ar as -- does he stamp on
i l
35 I
l I
mgc 35' the embed plates with it, then?
2 MR. RElIFELD:
Not to my knowledge.
3 INVESTIGATOR:
Okay.
4 INVESTIGATOR:
Are you familiar with an individual 5
by the name of (inaudible), a general foreman?
O MR. REliFELD :
Yes.
7 INVESTIGATOR:
What is (inaudible).
What 8
is h'is job (inaudible) ?
9 MR. REHFELD:
Is he --
10 INVESTIGATOR:
(Interposing).
11 MR. REHFELD:
Yes, he's electrical INVESTIGATOR: Okay.
(Inaudible) GF.
13 MR. REHFELD:
'He might be a GF.
I don't believe 14 he is.
15 I
. INVESTIGATOR:
Well, a foreman at least.
10 MR. REHFELD:
I thought he was a Superintendent.
I II tINVESTIGATOR: ' Okay,: maybe he is.
I don't know.
I I8
~
I'm going by GF.
I'm just giving you what we have.
That's 19
.why (inaudible).
l 20 Have you ever had any direct relations with him?
21 MR. REHFELD:
I know the man, I mean to say hello 22 l
to him.
23 INVESTIGATOR:
What is his reputation among the 24 other people?
.O 25 MR. REHFELD:
As far as I know, it's okay.
36 o
I mgc 36 INVESTIGATOR:
Is there any reason that you 2
would know or anybody in any QC-type would like to get even f
with him for a revenge-type motive or anything that you --
4
'MR.
REHFELD:
Nothing that I know of.
5 INVESTIGATOR:
How about anything (inaudible) --
6 Yashimoto.
He's supposed to be the foreman.
MR. REHFELD:
Yashimoto, yes.
8 INVESTIGATOR:
Do you know what his first name is, 9
by any chance?
10 MR. REHFELD:
No.
He's not a foreman anymore.
11 (Simultaneous conversation.)
MR. REHFELD:
Now he's.back to carrying tools.
13 INVESTIGATOR:
Is he an electrician?
14 MR. REHFELD:
Yes, he is.
15 INVESTIGATOR:
Okay.
Again, what would be his 16 general reputation?
17 MR.'REHFELD:
I have no idea.
I've never had 18 any personal deal _ings with him.
19 INVESTIGATOR:
You haven't heard any'adverso comments relative to people getting irritated because 21 he was (inaudible) ?
22 MR. REHFELD:
No.
23 INVESTIGATOR:
Any reason that someone was 24 attempting to get back at him for revenge or --
MR. REHFELD:
No, I haven't.
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~ INVESTIGATOR:.'From your--observations, do you y
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s INVESTIGATOR: lOkay.
I have no:additionali "l
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- 11 '
.and:sittingethrough this' questioning with;us and supplying.
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Weiwill close thisJinterview attthis1 time. -The
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