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VERBATIM PROCEEDINGS NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION PUBLIC MEETING IN TH3 MATTER OF NORTHEAST UTILITIES, MILLSTONE UNITS 1, 2 AND 3 e
  $        4 gr JANUARY 27, 1998 r
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WATERFORD TOWN HALL i                                                      15 ROPE FERRY ROAD O
WATERFORD, CONNECTICUT f
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!  V            j.g. g g , g                      POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT              (800) 262-4102
                                                              ~
9902270040 990127 PDR    ADOCK 05000245 T                PDR
 
          - - - - . - . - . . _ - = . - - - -                        . - . - -      - -..--          -- -            -.- ..      -  .
2 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
            .                                                                  JANUARY 27, 1998 1                                . .        . Verbatim        Proceedings of the Public 2            Meeting  of    the        United        States      Nuclear        Regulatory 3            Commission    in    the          matter      of    Northeast      Utilities, 4            Millstone Units 1, 2              and 3,      held January 27,        1998, at 5            7:00 P.M., at      the Waterford Town                  Hall, 15 Rope            Ferry 6            noad, Waterford, Connecticut.                  . .
7 8
9
                              -10 R                        11 1
          -.                  12 13                                  CHAIRPERSON                WAYNE      LANNING:              Good 14              evening, ladies        and gentlemen.                Welcome to      a meeting 15              between  the NRC and you,                the public.          The purpose of 16              this meeting is to inform you of NRC activities ongoing 17              at Millstone with regard                to the restart of a            ullt out l                        18              there  and also to              receive your input            and feedback on 19              the restart process.
20                                  My name is            Wayne Lanning.            I'm Deputy
[                          21              Director of the Special Projects Office.                          I oversee the 1                        22              inspection activities.
  .I
  ;g                          23                                  With me tonight at the table, at the far 24              _end  tonight is      Gene        Imbro.          Gene      is in  charge      of b%s-                                                              POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT              (800) 262-4102
 
          -    -                  . - .    ~  _-          _-            ..- - -        .-    . - . - . -    . -
l l
3 JAN kR
(])                                                            98 1        overseeing          the      Independent          Corrective            Action 2      Verification          Process.      Next to      him is        Helen Pastis.
3        Helen    has been -- she's          the team leader              for a recent 4        assessment        of  the    Employee Cc      ' erns        Program.            And 5        she'll be making a short presentation later tonight.
6                              Next    to  me is      Phil      McKee.        Phil          is 7      Deputy Director also for              overseeing licensing.                He has 8        additional responsibility of overseeing                        the activities 9      with regard to the Safety-Conscious Work Environment.
10                              We  have    in    the    audience        the    Senior e      11        Resident Inspectors            for the Millstone units.                  We also R
    ~
12        have Jacque Durr,          the branch chief, back there                  in the O    13        corner and other NRC folks in the audience tonight.
14                              Tonight's meeting          is being transcribed.
15        So  I would      ack that      when you      ask questions            or make 16        commente, that you identify yourself.
17                              I'll plan on taking a break at 9:00 P.M.
l      18  -tonight.        And as we have established                    previously in our 6
    !      19        format,  we will        take    questions and              comments on          the 20        subject that we have just discussed.                    And I'll ask that
    $      21      you limit    your questions            and comments to            that topic.
1      22      And we'll also have at the end of the session a general 5
l      23        question-and-answer            session      where      you      may    ask        any 24        question on any topic.
Q                                        POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
_ _    _              _ _ _            __          _ _ _ _    . _ . _ - . .          _    . _ ~  _ ..
4 Q                                              kR              98 1                        Let me      just quickly outline                  the agenda 2  for  tonight.        I'm going        to start          it off          by talking 3  about some    of the        forthcoming meetings.                      And then        I a  will summarize        the meeting that we                had with Northeast 5  Utilities on January the 14th.
6                        Following      my    presentation, it                  will be 7  Phil  McKee.        And    Phil    will        summarize          the  Safety 8  Conscious  Work      Environment        activities and                introduce 9  Helen. And then Gene will follow with a status of the 10  Independent        Corrective      Action          Verification            Program, g      11  And that will be        followed by the general question-and-c 12  answer    session,        beginning        with          questions          on  our 13  Inspection Report, the last one that we issued.                              That's 14  No. 207.
15                        Just joining        us is Bill                Travers. Bill 16  is  the  Director        of    the    Special            Projects        Office.
17  Welcome.
$      18                        DR. BILL 7 RAVERS:              Thanks.
19                        CHAIRPERSON        LANNING:              So    let me    just 20  quickly list some meetings              that may be of                interest to f      21  you  that's coming        P'  in    the very near                  future. We'll b      22  start by  tomorrow,          ; morrow morning at                    9:00 there's a k
l      23  Tier 2, Tier 3,        Independent Corrective Action -- ICAVP 24  inspection exit.          That's at the Training                      Center. And d                                POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT        (800) 262-4102
 
  .  - -    - ~ ~ -                      ..      .-    .- - _ . _ _ -            ..      . . .  - . .    - . . - -
5 M      R                  98 1        that's open for pub'ic observation.
2                          On Thursday the 29th in King of Prussia, 3        we're having a meeting to discuss operator training and 4        cmergency preparedness        issues.                And then    on February 5        the  2nd,  the    Chairman        of            the  Nuclear      Regulatory 6        Commission,  Chairman      Jackson,              will visit      Millstone.
7        She will  hold a press        conference on the                  afternoon of 8        the 2nd and then      meet with the public that                      evening at 9        7:00 P.M. across the street at the high school.
10                          Then    on    February              19,  we'll      have        a 11        Commission meeting.        This is an                established quarterly
  ~
12        status  Commission meeting          to          discuss    the status            of O    13        Millstone  activities.            And            that  will    be  held          in 14        Rockville, Maryland.      And the time of that is                    starting 15        at 9:00 in the morning.
16                          I    want to turn now and                  just give you a 17        Readers Digest version,          if you will, of the meeting we l      18        had  with Northeast Utilities                    on January 14.          At that 19        meeting  was  Sam    Collins.              And      Mr. Collins          is the 20        Director of  Office of Nuclear Reactor                    Regulation.              So O
21        he had come to the site for a tour and participation in 1
  -      22        those meetings.
E 23                              want    to      summarize essentially                  what
[                                  I 24        Northeast  told    us    regarding                station    readiness            for POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT        (800) 26.2-4102
 
6 MEETIN          I    TO14E UNITS 1 restart and    then talk a little bit about the milestone 2 schedule that they provided to us.
3                  Mr.      Kenyon      provided        the        station 4 readiness overview where he talked about the key issues 5 and the status    of those.        And they're        the same        ones 6 ve'Ne discussed        previously. He talked to              whether or 7 not  their evaluation of each of            these key issues were 8 progressing satisfactorily          or not.      If  not, when they 9 wi.L1 be or projected to be satisfactory.
10                  So I'll just list          a couple of these and g  11 go down the    list.      High standards        was an        objective.
9 q 12 This  involved    leadership      and regulatory              compliance.
V 13 The regulatory compliance had not              met the satisfactory 14 level  of    performance.        and  he      indicated          that      he 15 expected that Unit 3 would at least be in ccmpliance by 16 February.
17                  He    talked  about      the    strong        nuclear l  18 safety  philosophy.        He talked        about    the        oversight 19 committees,    the-QA    function, emergency          planning, rad 20 protection, procedure quality and adherence.
;I  21                  Oversight      and    the        Nuclear        Safety
'1  22 Advisory  Board      was  viewud    as      being    satisfactory.
,g 23 Emergency planning had        not reach Satisfactory                at that l
i    24 meeting but expected        to be more successful                by the end POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT      (800) 262-4102
 
,                                                                                                      7
^i                                    MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS i( )                                      JANUARY 27, 1998 1    of    January. Radiation    protection was          judged to            be 2    satisfactory.        And procedure quality and adherence was 3    judged to be satisfactory for Unit 3.
4                        He    talked  a  little        bit  about          self-5    assessments      and their effectiveness and just primarily 6    addressed the nuclear oversight functioc                    And that was 7    projected to be satisfactory by the end of January.
4 8                        He also talked about corrective actions, 9    corrective action process.          Aad  that whs judged to                  be 10    satisfactory by the end of January.
g        11                        Another    objective          was  to restore            the d
12    licensing      and    design    bases.            In    other          words, 13    configuration      management    process        and    program.              He 14    exracted to      restore    the licensing          basis    and          design 15    basis for Unit 3 in February.
16                        Employee Concerns, this really                      talks to l!            17    the Safety-Conscious        Work Environment.            That had            not l        18    at'.p'*ed a level of        satisfaction that he expected, but 19    he    expected significant      progress to          be made          in that 20    arena by the end of February.
f        21                        Excellence    in    operations.            These        are "i
    -        22    things like work        control, training, operator readiness E
l        23    and security.        Essentially, that objective,                    that area 24    was      to be ready by January and early February for Unit POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT      (800) 262-4102
 
8 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()                                                            JANUARY 27, 1998 1 3.
2                                                He talked about their schedule for being 3 ready to restart Unit                                    3. And I'll just mention      just a 4 couple                                  of  significant    milestones that      we  discussed 5 during in that meeting.
1 6                                                The  first one is Mode      4. Mode  4 is a 7 condition that's specified by the specifications.                                          It's j        8 essentially as you return to power operation, there's a j        9 series                                  of  modes  you  go through    as  defined    by the 10 license.                                  Mode 4 is the first one that you go to out of 11 a snutdown, refueling outage or Mode 5.
12                                                And it's    this  mode where    most  safety 13 systems must be                                    operable and in    -- you    know, all the 14 work completed on those systems.                                      Go that Mode 4 status 15 was projected to be in early February, 16                                                He  also    indicated that    the corrective 17 action inspection -- this                                      is the NRC corrective action l    18 inspection.                                    We call    it the 40500    inspection because 5
l    19 that's the                                  inspection number.      They  projected at that 20 meeting                                  that they'd    be ready    for that    inspection in
    $    21 early                                  February. Now, this is the same inspection that
: i. 22 had been scheduled for January and had been delayed.
I l    23                                                So,      we      have      since      received 24 correspondence indicating that they are,                                        indeed, ready O\#
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT      (800) 262-4102
 
9 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
          .(])                                        JANUARY 27, 1998-1 for    the  9orrective    action    inspection.      And that's 2 slated to start on site February the 9th.
3                  Following    the      40500 inepection    is the 4 operation of safety team inspection.            This is the team 5 inspection, one of the last inspections that is done to 6 judge    the  readiness for    start-up and    continued safe 7 operation.      They projected        being  ready    for    that l                            8 inspection in February.        And we really have not        set a 9 firm date for that      inspection.      They have yet  to tell 10 us that they are ready for the OSTI inspection.
            $              11                  So that was just about the highlights of 9
1 12 our meeting, our last      meeting with Northeast regarding 13 the restart of Millstone.
14                  Just_for your        information, though,      che        i 15 staff will    be issuing    another version of. our Restart 16 Assessment Plan.      I expect that to be issued next week.
17 And we'll have      copies of-that available in the library
          -l                18  for you for your review, if you so choose.
19                  So  I  think    that covers- most    of      the          i 20  administrative    status  of our      meeting  with Northeast
            $              21 Utilities.
1
        ;-                  22                  Are there    questions on anything      that I l          23  said?
24                  DR. TRAVERS:      Let    me just add one thing POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102
 
10 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
(])                                          JANUARY 27, 1998 1 to what you said.
2                    One of    the things, just to        add to what 3 Wayne said    about the    status information that        we send 4 now to the    Commission on a monthly          basis, that status 5 paper    will    include    our best      estimate  for  planning 6 purposes of      the schedule    we're on for      completing the 7 activities    that    we  need    to complete    prior    to    any 8 Commission consideration of a restart.
9                    That    schedule          we  always add this 10 caveat  --
is necessarily      driven by the      completion by g                11 the  licensee    of  the  activities that      they  need    to e
r-              12 complete.      You may    know, I'm sure,      that the schedule
(_g/
13 that    has  been    proj ected    for restart    has  at    times 14 changed    over  the past    months.        And that's    changed 15 because of the licensee's        need to continue to complete 16 actions    that  are necessary      to    support the    possible 17 restart vote by the Commission.
{                18                    What we    do in our Commission        papers as 19 an    important    element      in  our    planning    and      our l l
20 utilization effectively of          the limited resources        that U
21 we have is try      to estimate based on what        the licensee k                22
;                  tells us    is their schedule      for effectively completing 5
l                23 corrective actions, the        schedule that we      can complete 24 our verification activities in.
POST REPORTING SERVICE EAMDEN, CT      (800) 262-4102
 
11 h
  =
kRY        98
                                        -1                    So that    paper will provide        an estimate 2 of a schedule.      But, again,      it's tied fundamentally to 3 the  completion      by    the    licensee    of  the    corrective 4 actions that they need to complete.
5                    MR. DONALD DELCORE:        No turning on?
l
,                                        6                    Donald Delcore, Uncasville, Connecticut.
7 Mr. Lanning,      you  indicated      that  one    of  the  last 8 inspections    to be done will be tne          OSTI. So I have a 9 couple ot questions related to that.
10                    It seems    to me that there      are a number
    $                                    11 of issues, both on the Restart            Assessment Plan -- some 12 indications    I      can    give    you  would    be    the  ICAVP 13 deficiencies    and the      satisfactory    completion of      all 14 those issues    that were identified in          the discovery by 15 the licensee and in the performance of the ICAVP itself 16 by Sargent    & Lundy and        whatever the findings        were of 17 the  review    done      on    the    in-scope    and  out-of-scope l                                  18 systems by the NRC.
19                    And it seems to me an enormous amount of 20 things would have to accomplished by, ac you indicated,                  '
    $                                    21 mid-February    to the end of February with regard to the 7  -                                  22 Restart  Assessment Plan prior to            this OSTI,      I would 5
l                                  23 think, if  the OSTI is one          of the last    tests that you 24 want to conduct.        And I    would think that we would have POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
12
()                                                                            AN  R              8 1 all  these license    basis issues        and the like  and, of 2 course, most    of the  spokes of the        Restart Assessment  '
3 Plan wheel completed.      Yes?
4                  CHAIRPERSON LANNING:          I agree  with you 5 that there's a lot of work to be completed prior to the beginning of that inspection, 6
i 7                  MR. DELCORE:    Well, but what        I'm asking 8 you is are  those items scheduled to be completed prior 9 to you beginning the OSTI?
10                  CHAIRPERSON LANNING:          I would guess that g                                                    11 not all items will be completed            prior to beginning the e
12 OSTI inspection.
13                  MR. DELCORE:    Could      you give  me some 14 idea  of those items that are not going to be completed 15 prior to the OSTI?
L l
16                  CHAIRPERSON LANNING:          I think one of-the 17 most important things probably is completion of all the i                                                      18 corrective actions    for various things that          need to be 19 done.
I don't    expect all of those corrective          actions 20 to  have been completed prior to the OSTI.
I do expect
      $                                                    21 the major modifications, for example, major corrections
        !-                                                  22 to processes, the corrective action process itself, for 5-
[                                                  23 example, to be working      and effective prior to starting 24 the OSTI.
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
13 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS l        -()-                                                                  JANUARY 27, 1998 1
e                                            1                        DR. TRAVERS:                Maybe I                  can add --      if I I
>                                            2  add one thing,' Don, specifically to your question.                                          One 3  of  the        things  in    looking at                  our            project  planning
!                                            4    schedule,        it looks      as-though                  we'll be            completing --
5    about      the same time we        complete-the OSTI                            will be-the
:                                            6  final      step    or  the      final              team                inspection    of    our 7  Independent        Corrective      Action                  Verification              Program.
4 8  And  that final'      inspection, one                      of a            series  of team 9  inspections, really, is designed to take a                                      look at the 10      adequacy        and effectiveness                of the                  corrective actions 9                                11      that have resulted from            findings of ICAVP.                              And we're 4        g
        ~
12      going to sample CMP corrective actions as well.
3
!~                                        13                            But, in large                measure, the OSTI --- the i
14      decision for conduct of OSTI is that most of what needs
,                                        15      to  be done        is  done, at              least          for the            purposes        of
;                                        16      assessing        operational      readiness, the                            transition that.
17      the utility has        made into being capable of running the i
        .j-                              18      plant,        support the operations,                      maintenance support to 19      operations,        engineering                  support                  to  operations,
_f-                              20      management programs, those kinds                            of things all need to
      '$                                21      be completed to the point where they can be assessed in
! .[
22      our    Operational        Safety                Team          Inspections.                Very i 5.
g                                23      important,                                                                                                    a j                                        24                            MR. DELCORE:                Well, you know, the thing l                                                                        POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT                (800) 262-4102
          .;~                  . . - _ . _ _ . .        _ - _              _
 
14
()                                                                    JA UAR            8 1 that's                                      bothering me          about    this whole    issue is    that 2 we're                            talking about an inspecticn that's verifying the                          1 3 license basis and 6esign basis of four systems                                                    out of 4 88.      And                                        I'm not    comfortable that at      this point    the 5 resolutions to                                              the deficiencies which have been found 6 hmie even been addressed, 7                                                            In  other  words,  the approach    or  the 8 resolution to                                              the issue that was      discovered either by 9 Sargent                                            & Lundy or    NU in either    of their independent 10 discoveries.                                            I'm concerned      that we're almost    putting i
lg    11 the        cart                                      before the    horse, if  you will,    because we U
12 don't have -- seem to have a complete license basis and 13 we're talsing about                                              reviewing a    licensee before      that 14 process is complete, 15                                                            And, frankly, I'm    very concerned      about 16 it and                                          I'm concerned about it        because Shirley Jackson 17 stood                            before us                    or the  press in    this very  room and l  18 indicated                                            that all of    that was  going to    be resolved 19 prior                              to any                start-ap activities.        I view  a heat-up 20 into                    a Mode-4 to                            be a start-up    activity, certainly a
  $  21 prelude to                                            it,    certainly are    dependent upon    various l  22
  ;      aspects                                            of those    systems    with regard    to the  safety 5
l  23 environment                                            and risk    assessment associated    with that 24 plan, O'                                                                  POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102 l
w                                                                                                      N
 
15 J          AR                8 i                          So I view what's                  going on here from the 2        indications you' re giving to me that we're very, very, 3        very  premature      in moving forward                  when    the licensee          ,
4        looks like they're still rushing to finish things up.
5                          So,    you know,                I'm  suggesting      here    a-6          little bit of restraint and                    a little bit of relaxation 7          in the schedule to allow them to get the issues done so l                                  8        that we    can see      that there's resolution                  to CMP /ICAVP 9          issues, that there      is resolution to                  corrective action 10          items  and not    having the            majority of        the corrective L
!.g                                11        action items done, but to have them all done.
      .s 12                            Now, I recogni::e that there                    are certain 13          aspects of    a nuclear plant                  with which you      never have 14        -all your corrective action items done.                        But, certainly, 15          they've had quite a while to correct the problems.                            And 16          I would expect that              they would-be at a level              where we 17        would only be dealing                with relatively new              corrective l                    18          action -items and that all of the ones that have gone on 19          for the last two or three years would be all fixed.
20                            And  I        think that        Shirley Jackson led I                      21          most of    uc to believe that.                    And I don't      think we're 1
              -                    22          really seeing that take place.                      And I'm very concerned I'
[                    23          about it.
24                            Thank you.
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
16 A    R            8 1                                                            CHAIRPERSON          LANNING:            Any    other 2  questions?                                            Okay.        If    there are    no other      questions, 3  I'll turn --
4                                                            MS,      SUSAN      PERRY  LUXTON:        I  have  a 5  question.                                            I have a question, 6                                                            CHAIRPERSON LANNING:            All right.
7                                                            MS.      PERRY LUXTON:        New    microphones, I 8  notice.                                              Let's  all        celebrate    that      we've  got  new 9  microphones this month.
10                                                            Susan        Perry  Luxton,    Great Neck      Road, lg    11  Waterford, Connecticut.                                                    I'm talking about        the re-- I U
12  have a question about the restart assessment wheel, the 13  restart assessment wheel.                                                    Did  you say that these will 14  be resolved before restart, all of these spokes on                                                          tha 15  wheel?
16                                                            CHAIRPERSON          LANNING:      I  think what    I 17  said                                          was that there --          all those spokes        on the wheel l    18  provide                                          input    into        assessing    the    Corrective Action 19 Program, that                                            completion of various            activities around 20  that                                          wheel  and how        -- you    know,    how well    they fix o
  . 21  defit.iencies,                                          how      well    they  respond      to enforcement
!=  22  items, how well they respond to                                                      employee concerns all 5
[  23  go                                      inte      determining how          well  the corrective        action 24  process is working.
O                                                                  POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
17 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()                                                                                      JANUARY 27, 1998 1                                              MS, PERRY                        LUXTON:                Okay.          Then help me 2          out on              enforcement.                            Enforcement, this spoke                                  of this 3        wheel,-I'm                    thinking                    of          it            in      terms    of      you                doing 4          enforcement                  actions on                          violations that                          have --                    they 5        have accrued in the last year.                                                          For instance, they just 6        .got a 2.1                  million-dollar fine up --                                              for violations up 7        until December 1996.                                      The violations from December 1996 8          to now, say, are they going to be                                                            -- is enforcement                                    --
9        are they going -- are those violations going to be, you 10          know,            enfccced?                          Are            they              going      to        have      to                    pay
                                                                                                                                                                                                                ^
g-                        11          penalties or whatever they have to                                                                do before restart?
U 12          Will those violations be resolved?                                                              Is that part of it?
O                      13                                                CHAIRPERSON LANNING:                                        That's part of it.
.                              14                                                MS,              PERRY              LUXTON:                  Will        they                              be 15        . resolved?
16                                                CHAIRPERSON                          LANNING:                The        plan is                              to 17          issue as many -- whatever violations that we can before 11 8          restart.                    -But                what        that wheel                      really        talks                to is                            .
8
        ..                    - 19          corrective actions for those violations.
20                                                MS. PERRY LUXTON:                                      Right.
f                      21                                                CHAIRPERSON                          LANNING:                In        other words, 22          we're looking at the corrective actions implementcd                                                                                                as
  -g l                      23          a result that caused that violation.                                                              That's what we're 24          looking at in assessing the corrective action process.
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT                          (800) 262-4102 l
i
                  --,.m-_m.                        . , , _  ,,      ,    . , . - _ , , , _ .                          . , , ,                  , , ,      _ . . . . . . . - . . - , . . . , , . -
 
i 18 MEETIN3 RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()                                                          JANUARY 27, 1998 1                                                MS. PERRY  LUXTON:    Right.      So I  am 2  assuming                                that  those    corrective  actions    for  the 3
violations that have occurred between December 1996 and 4  now will be resolved by restart.
5                                                CHAIRPERSON    LANNING:    They may  not be 6  resolved before restart.                                  There may be some enforcement 7  that has not taken place before restart that would take 8  place after restart.
9                                                MS. PERRY LUXTON:      Well, why is that if 10  that's one of the                                  spokes on the restart assessment        --
g  11  corrective action on the                                  Restart Assessment Plan?      Why W
12  wouldn't they be resolved before restart?
13                                                CHAIRPERSON    LANNING:    What    will  be 14  resolved before                                restart    -- the  enforcement takes      on 15  issuing a Notice of Violation, for example --
16                                                MS, PEPRY LUXTON:    Right.
17                                                CHAIRPERSON    LANNING:    --
having    an
$  18  enforcement conference and then determining what action 19  that    the staff                              will  take based    on that    enforcement 20  conference and the inspection                                    activity as part of      :tt
$  21  and so on.
b 22                                                MS. PERRY LUXTON:    Okay.
l  23                                                CHAIRPERSON    LANNING:    Some    of  that 4  enforcement                                activity may    occur after    the  restart of POST REPORTING SERVICE RAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102
 
19 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()                                                    JANUARY 27, 1998 1              this --  of the first Lndt.            What I do expect Northeast 2              to do is  at least address          the corrective actions                                    for 3              those violations.      They know --
4                              MS. PERRY        LUXTON:          What do                        you mean by 5              address?    What do you      mean by address                          than?            Explain 6              address.                                                                                          '
7                              CHAIRPERSON                    LANNING:                                Implement 8              corrective actions for those identified violations.
9                              MS.      PERRY LUXTON:              Okay.                        Not      just a 10              plan of implementation.          You're talking about an actual g            11              implementation of the corrective action.
U 12                              CHAIRPERSON LANNING:                    Particularly if it 13              affects the operability of a system, for example.
14                              MS. PERRY        LUXTON:            Right.                        So    some of 15              them --    and you're      saying particularly as                                      it affects 36;            the operability.        Some of them may be                      deferred, you're 17              saying, if they don't      --
18                              CHAIRPERSON          LANNING:                          Some            of    the l
.            19              enforcement    actions may        not be          completed.                            In other 20              words,    the staff      may not      nave issueo                        all violstions f            21              prior to restart, for example.
1
=            22                              MS. PERRY LUXTON:                  Your staff?
l            23                              CHAIRPERSON LANNING:                    Our staff.
24                              MS. PERRY LUXTON:                  Nell, okay.
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT          (800) 262-4102
 
20 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()
JANUARY 27, 1998 1                                    CHAIRPERSON              LANNING:    I  mean it's  --
2 because    we            continue to                      inspect  and    there could  be 3 violations identified, you know --
4                                    MS. PERRY              LUXTON:  Oh, within    the next 5 two weeks, you're saying.
6                                      CHAIRPERSON LANNING:              Sure.
7                                    MS. PERRY LUXTON:                I know. But there>u 8 heen violations that have occurred within the last year 9 that  you      know they've                              happened. They've    occurred.
10 They should              have the                      corrective action plans      already
  ;g    11 together    and the                              correction action      should have    been U
12 resolved.            And you                        should have given      them violations 13 already.        Right?                              So    what about  them?      Aren't they 14 going to be resolved before restart?
15                                      CHAIRPERSON              LANNING:    Well,    the first 16 part of that I think I agree with.                                    That being that the 17 violations are                            known to          Northeast Utilities and      they l  18 should  be implementing corrective                                    actions in response 19 to  those violations.                                    The  violations are part      of an 20 enfcrcement program.                                  We  have a process, procedures on
"  o
    ,  21 how that takes place                                  and we're following that process.
    ;  22 And  what I'm saying for                                  the third time      is that there s
l  23 may be enforcement that takes place after restart.
24                                      MS. PERRY            LUXTON:  Okay.      But what I'm s                                                            POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT              (800) 262-4102 Lib
 
21 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()                                                  JANUARY 27, 1998 1 saying          for the              first      time, Mr. Lanning,        is in  the 2 Government Accounting Office Report of May 1997                                    --
3                                    CHAIRPERSON        LANNING:            Now,  wait    a 4 minute.            Let me interrupt you a second now.
5                                    MS, PERRY LUXTON:        Yes.
6                                    CHAIRPERSON LANNING:              You're getting off-7 in  an area that I didn't talk about in my introductory 8 comments.                And I --
9                                    MS. PERRY LUXTON:        Oh, but I --
i        10                                    CHAIRPERSON LANNING:              General questions R      11 --
5 12                                    MS,      PERRY  LUXTON:          No.      It's    about 13 enforcement,                      though.        It's  about making          sure  that 14 enforcement does take place.
15                                    CHAIRPERSON        LANNING:          I  didn't    talk 16 about enforcement in my --
17                                    MS, PERRY      LUXTON:          But that's part      of l      18 the Restart Assessment Plan, though.                                  Isn't it?
19                                    CHAIRPERSON LANNING:              But    can we -- can 20 I  defer              that          to      the  general          question-and-answer
  $      21 session?              Can we get on --
1
  -      22                                    MS.      PERRY  LUXTON:          All    right. All 5
l      23 right.            But I won't forget that one.                        I'll think about 24 that.
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT        (800) 262-4102
 
22 JAl  R                98 1                                    CHAIRPERSON              LANNING:            I won't      let you 2  forget.          I won't let you forget.
3                                    MS, PERRY LUXTON:                    All right.
4                                    CHAIRPERSON LANNING:                      We'll cover it.
5                                    MS. PERRY LUXTON:                    All right.        Okay.
6                                    CHAIRPERSON              LANNING:          But    I would like 7  to get on with the agenda.
8                                    MS. PERRY LUXTON:                    I thought it was part 9  --
I    mean I didn't mean                        to delay.          I  just thought it 10  was a part of this, the Restart Assessment Plan.                                              But I g          11  can wait, d
12                                    CHAIRPERSON LANNING:                      Okay.
13                                    Okay.
14                                    MR.            DELCORE:            Yes.        You      know,      I 15  understand you                    want 'o            move along.              But    I certainly 16  don't        want to be restricted                            in my ability            to ask you 17  questions about                      the particular areas.                      And we've been l        18  through          this          before and            I      think      we could        probably 19  dismiss some of the rhetoric back and forth here.
20                                    One            of  the            issues    that        you  just f          21  discussed was                    the            rests t assessment            wheel      and      you I.        22  indicated that there was going to be an upcoming change 5
l        23  to the wheel, some change or amendment to this --
24                                    CHAIRPERSON LANNING:                      No. A provision --
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT            (800) 262-4102 l
 
23 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()                                              JANUARY 27, 1998 1                        MR. DELCORE:                        To the plan.
2                        CHAIRPERSON LANNING:                            -- to the plan.
3                        MR.            DELCORE:              Okay.        Well,      isn't the 4      plan that wheel that you --
5                        CHAIRPERSON LANNING:                            No, it's not.
6                        MR. DELCORE:                        Okay.
7                        CHAIRPERSON LANNING:                              That wheel was my 8      attempt to help everybody understand how, for                                      example, 9      corrective actions, the corrective action                                  process, the 10      inputs that will be                made into assessing how well                        that g      11      process is working, u
12                        MR. DELCORE:                        Okay      With regard to that 3
J 13      wheel, that plan, and                the changes to that plan,                        I sat 14      in  East  Lyme a        long        time ago              and      I listened      to a 15      presentation that you gave.                          And I know -- I sat in the 16      front row. And I asked an enormor.s amount of questions 17      with  regard to    whether all                        of those        issues    on that l      18      restart spoke were going to                          be corrected prior to              the 19      restart  of this unit.                And you assured                    many of us in 20      this  audience-, Mr.              Lanning,              that that        was going      to
  $      21      happen.
k 22-                      Now, you seem --
l      23                        CHAIRPERSON LANNING:                            Well,    Mr. Delcore 24      --
O>
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
24
()                                                                                    AN    R          8 1                                                                          MR DELCORE:      Wait a minute. Wait. Let 2  me finish,                                                          Let me finish.
3                                                                          And  you seem    to be  backing    away from l
4  that position.                                                          And I don't want      to let you    do that.
5  And so I want                                                          to remind the audience that        that's what  .
l 6  you agreed to.                                                          If we need to go get the transcript and 7  re-read that,                                                          we'll do    that, if that's    necessary, at 8  the next meeting.
9                                                                                    (Applause) 10                                                                          CHAIRPERSON LANNING:      That was my point g  11  exactly.                                                        If there is a transcript of that meeting --
9 12                                                                          MR. DELCORE:    Okay.
13                                                                          CHAIRPERSON    LANNING:        then I won't 14  debate the issue with you.
15                                                                          Any other questions?      Okay.
16                                                                          MR  PHIL McKE'    Good evening.      What I'm 17  going to focus on tonight and talk about is efforts and l  18  activities involved with --                                                            regarding Safety-Conscious 19  Work Envi.ronment and Employee Concerns Progrim.
20                                                                          And since our last meeting, I believe in
$  21  December, some of our                                                            major activities involve the NRC 1
22  conducted a team evaluat'on and that included two weeks l  23  on                            site                              of  looking    at  Employee  Concerns    Program, 24  aspects                                                        of the    Safety-Conscious Work      Environment and POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102
 
25 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()                                          JANUARY 27, 1998 1 also some of the            activities and oversight that's being 2 done by Little      Harbor Consultants.                        I won't get    into 3 that. I'll -- after                  I tinish uith          some remarks that 4 I'm going to make, Helen                    Pastis, the team leader, will 5 speak  to  that      topic,              give      you    a    summary    of  the 6 inspection, the inspection findings.
7                    What I'd like to                    talk about today is we 8 had a meeting      earlier today                    and I think      some of    you 9 attended  that.      And the meeting is one of our periodic 10 reviews, periodic              meetings between the                NRC, Northeast g    11 and  Little      Harbor Consultants                    to    discuss activities 0
12 going on, findings and status of where we are.
13                    The                meeting      principally      included    a 14 presentation by        Northeast                  Utilities and      some of    the 15 activities of Little Harbor                        Consultants.      I'm going to 16 go through that fairly quickly, if I can here.
17                    Northeast Utilities' presentation,                          most l    18 of their presentation focused on their measurements and 19 assessments and status of their assessments with regard 20 to their success criteria, O
  ,    21                    And              if  I        might    briefly      summarize,
  !    22 Northeast has six                success criteria.              And  I'm going to g
5 l    23 go through      principally four                    of  those.      Two of    them 24 include    eventually                    where      the    employee      oversight      i
    ~'                            POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
26  i
()                                                                                                    JANU R  2      98 1                    organization makes                              a recommendation or            concurs in the 2                -finding for restart.                                And, also, one of-          their success 3                    criteria is Little Harbor Consultants' finding.
4                                                            Their principle four criteria                        that they 5                  are measuring, they discussed each of those.                                                  And  they 6                  have,            for lack                    of a  better term,      a grading                  system.
7                    It's        green, yellow                      and  red. And    I might' explain.
8                  Their criteria                              for green is that .the success criteria 9                  have          been met.                      Yellow  is that, although _it's-in the.
10                  alert area, they feel that the success criteria has not E                                11                  been          met.                And red,          of course,    is problems                    and the 0-12                    criteria is not met.
)~'                                        13                                                            And among      the four criteria,                    the first 14                    criterion                    is          the  employees'    willingness                    to  raise l
15                    concerns.                    Their consideration and                assessment in that 16                  area          is          that              it is- green.      It    meets the                  success-4 17                    criteria.                        In        their presentation,      they_. discussed a l          [                                18                  number of sub-elements, although they're more than what 19                    they 're presented,'that they believe supports that and
.-f                                        20                  principally                      includes leadership surveys and results of
        ^O 21
          .                                                      leadership surveys that they had done.
: l.                              22                                                            Also, they've done cultural gz                                                                                                                                        surveys and jl                                          23                    they-have another                              criteria where they            assess concerns j                                          24                    coming in                  to the Employee Concerns                Program and levels i
)
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i
  ,e-,,--    ,- - -      , - - - , - - ,
                                  .                ,,    ,n,-w-,-.                                    , -                  ,-    _  --.,w.,  -
                                                                                                                                                    .n- - , - -        ,,-
 
0 27-MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
    . ()                                                                                        JANUARY 27, 1998 1                    of confidentiality with some' assessment with respect to 2                    confidentiality          considerations,                                whether      people            feel i                                      3                    comfortable bringing concerns in, i
{                                      4                                            In all those, with                                  the exception of the 4
5                    cultural survey, it meets or exceeds their goals.                                                          And 6                    they're close -- and close                                with regard to the cultural 7                    survey item.
8                                            Their          next criteria that they looked at l
l.
9                    was the        line    management handles                                  issues  effectively.
I                                -10                        And they -also assess                    that area as- successful, green.
      -$                            11                      And  they identified                  several areas                          that they            used in 2
12                      doing that.        A lot            of that is how the                          line management 13                      accomplishes andLaddresses                                issues and              looking at      _
the 14                      licensee's        corrective. action                        program.              Measures that--
15                      they use to help determine                                the success criteria is the 16                      timeliness        for completion of corrective actions.                                              .W ere 17                      they  done        within            30      days?-                    And    looking            at    the-l                          18                      evaluation,        they have                an evaluation                      report of -their 19                      condition        reports of. how well                              they are for                each one
:                        20                      that        goes      through            over              a            period      and          overdue O-
      -,                            21                      assignments.            And          looking at                  those          criter4.a ,          their l-
        =
g-22                      consideration            is          that            that              area    is      green            and
:l                            23                      puccessful.
2''                                            The third                criteria they                    look at is              is
()                                                                          POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT                      (800) 262-4102 l
          - , _ ,            _ ... _ _ _                    _~  , . _ .        _~    . . , . ,              _ . , _      . ~ _ _ _ _ _                            _      _
 
28 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
        ))}.                                                                  JANUARY 27, 1998 1    Employee Concerns                                  Program effective.          And that's          the 2    formal Employee Concerns Program.                                          There's a number of 3    measures                  in that, a                        number of concerns    that come in.
4    Timeliness for- looking at concerns.                                            They assess that 5    area as also green and effective or success --                                              meeting 6    the success criteria for restart.
7                                            And the final                criteria that they looked 8    at      and          discussed                      and      had  some  measurements            were 9    recognition                        and addressing                  problem areas.      And these 10    are        where there                          may- be          organizational    disputes          or p        11    problems                  in            handling -of                issues  in    a  particular 9
12 organization                        aspect.                  And that area they assess now as 13    yellow, not meeting the success criteria.
14                                            And some of the factors that they looked 15    at in that area were -- some of the -- let's see.                                                  Were 16    looking at whether people                                        would use the program again.
17    And their training aspect, the level of their training.
[        18    They haven't                        completed                  necessarily all- the    training i                19    that          they              have            planned,            although    they  have        made 20  . progress in that area.                                        Whether there's adverse trends
      -O
        ,        21    and        numbers of issues                                  that are coming    forward.          And, lI =        22    also,                  how              they're                  dealing  in      numbers            and l        23    accomplishments of completing,                                        addressing the        problem 24    areas.                And they feel                          that more progress    needs to be POST REPORTING SERVICE j                                                              HAMDEN, CT                (800) 262-4102 l-
 
__.__ _ . _ ___._ _                                . . - _ _ _ . _ _ _ . _ _ _ _ _ . ~ - _ _ - _ .                                            _ _ __. _                    _ _ . _
29 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
(])                                                                                    JAMUARY 27, 1998 1
i i                    taade in that area.
,                          2                                                      That was their findings and conclusions.
3                                                      I'll go over quickly                          some of the              items 4                    that  Little Harbor                              discussed            in their    presentation.
1
;                          5                    And  they covered                          essentially three                    areas.        One area 1
I 6                    that      they                were            looking              at    and    providing                  some 7                    obser"ations is the Safety-Conscious                                            Work Environment.
;                          8                    And  a 17t of that,                                I might explain,              Little Harber is i                          9                    there    on site and available.                                        And a    lot of the bases
!                        10                    for their observations in this area and they identified
,g                        11                    war  attel. dance                    at          meetings.              There's    an    Executive 9
,                        12                    Review        Board                  that              reviews          disciplinary        actions.
l                        13                    There's also incidents or events of employee, personnel 14                    interactions or pending events and issues in that area, i
15                    They're available and observed                                          some of the actions and 36                    how those issues are dealt with.                                          Observing some of the 17                    training into some of the on-site activities.
l                  18                                                    And hised                  on      that, their      findings                  in 19                    that aren as presented                                    today were that -- the                  initial l                        20                    ona v as that substantial improvements have been made in
,$                        21                    this      area,                  that                  they're          demonstrated          improved k
22                    understanding and commitment to reaching the goal of an g
l                  23                    acceptable safety-conscious work er                                            monment.
4 24                                                    But they also '                      m:;      some issues --                  anu POST REPORTING                      .RVICE HAMDEN, CT                      (800    262-4102
 
30 MEETING        I    TO!4E UNITS 1 one of the principle issues or items they identified is 2 some of  the interactions    and support from    some other 3 elements of    the management,    like Human Resources      and 4 other  departments in    dealing and    supporting some    of 5 these issues that may involve activities in those areas 6 and  how  all that  is  integrated    into a,  you  know, 7 combined approach    to dealing    with some of    the issues 8 that come up, 9                  And, also, some    issues were    identified 10 in that the ut.ility    and line organization has not      yet g 11 fully  developed the    requisite skills    to consistently 12 promote  a  work  atmosphere that    provides    a  safety-13 conscious wc.k environment.
14                  The  other area that    was looked    at and 15 discussed was the Employee Concerns Program, where they 16 stand there. And that    -- some of    the findings    that 17 uere discussed and presented in that area were based on l 18 a fairly extensive review of the case files in Employee 19 Concerns Program.
20                  These are issues    and concerns that    are f 21 brought  up outside    of the  line organization      to this l
l
  . 22 organization, to the Employee      Concerns Program. And a 5
l 23 focus and    concentration on looking at      those cases and 24 cases  closed  that  involve harassment,    intimidation, POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
 
31 MEETIN  R    I      T0!    UNITS 1 retaliation and discrimination.            And our code word for 2 that is HIRD, 3                    Locked    at  --    a  lot  of  those    cases 4 involved, and      those particularly        that were    closed in 5 '97,  in certain aspects and parts of some of those that l                                                  6 remained  open. Looked at other cases.          There was also 7 involvement,      review of cases      that were not considered 8 or categorized      by the licensee as        HIRD or harassment, 9 intimidation issues.
10                    There  were    reviews    with some    of  the p                                          11 individuals that      had raised      this concern on feedback u
12 and  also      observed  some    of    the    interactions      and 13 operations of the Employee Concerns Program.
14                    And the findings that were identified in 15 that  area, some      of the  principle findings,          that the 16 Employee Concerns      Program has demonstrated        an ability 17 to    effectivel,      resolve      employee      concerns      of 18 retaliation, but has also        identified that the Employee
      $                                          19 Concerns Program does not          always meet timely -- does 20 not always timely intervene in            cases needing immediate
      $                                          21 intervention      or reaching a      determination of existence 1
22 of a chilling effect.
l                                          23                    And  one of    the other findings        was the 24 Employee Concerns      Program has      not always displayed      a O                                                                POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102                      '
m                  -
 
i 1
i 1
32 l
()                                                                                        JATUAR              98 4                                                                                                                                                                  l
) 1 1                    sensitivity                to    employees          facing HIRD            situations              or 1                                    2                    maintain sufficient communications with all concernees 3                    during the Employee Concerns Program                                    investigation and 4                    recolution.
5                                                    Associated          with        both          the              safety-6                    conscious      work            environment                and      Employee                Concerns 7                    Program,        as              is        our    custom,            there        were          some 8                    recommendations that were made by Little Harbor to deal 9                    with some of the findings that they had.
10                                                      Importantly, in the last                    area discussed
,        p                        11                      by Little Harbor, they,                          too, provided an assessment of u
,                                12                      the    status of                where          they consider            the licensee                was 13                      relative to                the success            criteria.            I might              add that 14                      Little    Harbor                has        and    uses 12        attributes                  that    is 4
15                      included in their oversight plan and they're attributes J
16                      of an ideal safety-conscious work environment.
17                                                      Their grading system in                    measuring these 18                      attributes is a little                          different, although it uses the
        !                        19                      same    colors.                  It's green,            yellow          and      red.            Their 4
i l                        20                      success    criteria is -- falls into one of the levels of f                        21                      the    yellow, given that green                              is the ideal              or more or l
        .                        22                      less the perfect environment, difficult but noble                                                  goal
      .g l                        23                      to achieve.                The levels below that, in Little                                  Harbor's 24                      estimations, are accept able to restart.
0'l                                                                              POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 gg,__-..                  - . , ,        w        , - . , - . ,  __      ,.n..  -            .-,
 
1 l
33
(])                                                                                    A AR          2            98 1                                                  And where they came down -- and                                    they've 2
taken these 12 criteria and kind of identified and came 3              up            with          assessment            in    those              areas        and      kind    of 4              correlated                      those      with      the four                Northeast          Utilities 5              criteria or close to it.
6                                                  And        their assessment in                        that area was, 7              at          least with            the        first criteria                        that I    mentioned, 8              demonstrate the wi'lingness              .                        to raise safety                  concerns.
9              Little Harbor's assessment was that they were yellow in 10              that area,                      kind of mid-category finding.                                And that was g                      11              acceptable for restart.
e 12                                                  And        the    second                criteria,          demonstrate 13              that          issues            are being            effectively                    resolved        by line 14              management, the                        same        identified yellow                        but      with    an 15              improving trend                        in that area.                        And, also,          that would 16              meet            the criteria                    of    -- adequate                    of  -- to      support 17              restart.
l                      18                                                  And in the third area,                                demonstrate that I;                      19              the ECP Program is effective.                                          This criteria or element f                      20              had been identified                              previously at the last                          assessment
  $                      21              that          it was            not at          a level              that would          meet restart 8
  .                      22              expectations.                        But        at this                assessment, it              was found I
l                      23              that this                  -- it      was acceptable in                            yellow, improving.
24              And some of that was based on some recent statistics on O                                                                            POST REPORTING SERVICE RAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
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%                                                                                          34 Cid 14EETIllG RE: 14ILLSTOliE UllITS i
Q                                      JANUARY 27, 1998 1        the  acceptability    by  people      that    use  the Employee 2        Concerns    Program and    feedback      and how    they felt    --
3        whether  they felt comfortable with using it.            And some 4        of the  information showed      --
would indicate      that the 5        numbers were fairly    good, running at        about a rate    of
;              6        about 80 percent in that area.
7                        The last criteria        they identified is --
8        it's a little longer as Little Harbor characterizes it.
9        Demonstrate    that    management        can    recognize      and 10        effectively deal with      alleged instances of harassment, p      11        intimidation    or other circumstances which have created u
12        a chilling effect which collectively are referred to as 13        prcblem areas.
14                        In this area, they identify the licensee 15        is  not meeting the success        criteria. It's    a red but 16        with some    improving trends.        And some    of the  things 17        I've discussed that they found.
[      18                        I won't    get into      the 12    criteria that 19        fall somewhat along the      same lines and fall into          some 20        of  those areas. I might mention that one of the major
        $      21        activities    that  they    identified      that    they --    that I      22
        ;                Little Harbor    plans to    do in    the upcoming      future in 5
l      23        February    is    conduct    what      is    termed    structured 24        interviews, going out and interviewing a number of -- a POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT      (800) 262-4102
 
35 MBETIN          !4I  TOli  UNITS 1 select  group of    employees.      And it's a      pretty large 2 number. It's  -- I    think it's    over 280    individuals.
3 And  they did  this    last    summer.      And  this  is    an 4 interview and    it measures a bunch of elements related 5 to  employees' willingness to bring concerns forward, 6 safety  culture    and  breaks    it    down.      And  these 7 interviews will go on for several weeko and the resulta 8 will likely be available in a month or so.
9                      might mention I                      before I give      Helen a 10    chance  to  give    you    a    summary    of  the    inspection g                    11    findings,  that we    do  have    some representation        from u
12    Little Harbor here with      us this evening.      So O            13    are questions following that if there  o category, we may get some 14    support from them in responding to them.
15                    And with that, I'd like to pass the mike 16    to Helen. Ms. Helen Pastis, who will give you a little
                            -17          discussion on some of our findings in this area.
                  $                18                    MS, HELEN PASTIS:        Thank you.
19                    Good evening.      The team's main objective 20    in this evaluation was      to assess the implementation of 3                        21    the Employee Concerns Program and the Employee Concerns
                  !                  22  Oversight Panel    at Millstone. I'll    also be referring
[                  23  to those two as the ECP and ECOP, the initialisms.
24                    During its evaluation, the team also had O                                      POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
_ - . _ - _ - _      _ _ - -              _ _ = _              -      _ -        .  .  . - - _ - - . . .
                                                                                                            .          -          = _ . - . . ~ . -
36 MEETIPG RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1    the      opportunity                    to  conduct          some            evaluation          of the 2    Safety-Conscious                          Work        Environment.                  One          of        the i
i 4
3    components in the NRC's                                assessment of Millstone's                              ECP          l 1
4  and        SCHE              will        be  the        results                of  Little          Harbor                !
;                        5  Consultants'                          findings          and    recommendations.                              The
;                        6  expertise that Little Harbor brings to issues will be a 7    factor in                  our oversight program                      on the status                of the 8    licensee's programs.
9                                          The team also            assessed the            third-party 10    organization,                          or    APOP,          which            is    Little          Harbor 1
f2                11    Consultants, which oversees                                    the implementation of                            the 12    Employee                    Concerns          Program          and Safety-Conscious                        Work 13    Environment at Millstone.
14                                            The team conducted its evaluation in two 15    parts.            The first --                both parts we were on site.                                    And 16    the first week                          was December 8 to                  the 12th.        The            team 4
17    arrived on site and                            did our evaluation.                      And        then any l                18      issues or follow-up items that came up, we returned the 19    week            of        January          5  to        the    9th          and    continued                our 20    evaluation.
O
    .                21                                            To get into some of the specifics on the i                22    Employee                    Concerns Program,                  the      team found          that              the g
l                23      licensee                  has        made    significant              improvements                in        the 24    Employee                    Concerns          Program.            The          ECP    appears to                  be O                                                              POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT          (800) 262-4102
 
37 MEETI!1  R    !I    TOli  UNITS 1 functioning adequately      and seems to    be an established 2 program at Millstone.
3                  The team found that the ECP organization 4 had independence,    resources and management        support to 5 perform thorough, unbiased        investigations. The  minor 6 discrepancies found by      the team did not      significantly 7 detract from the program or its accomplishments.
8                  One area we will continue to monitor          is 9 people's villingness      to    use the    ECP again. And  we 10 heard  some of  the results      concerning that    area this g  11 morning at the meeting, y
12                  The team    reviewed some of the      ECP case 13 files and generally they appeared          adequate, with minor 14 deficiencies.
15                  On  the    ECP self-assessments,      the team 16 concluded that the ECP self-assessments were adequately 17 self-critical.      The    licensee's    tracking  of  Little l  18 Harbor Consultants' recommendations was initially slow, 19 but now is satisfactory, f  20                  On ECOP, the Employee Concerns Oversight
$  21 Panel, ECOP  was slow      to develop and begin meaningful I
g 22 activities.      But now    it    appears  to be  functioning
[  23 adequately, heading in a positive direction.
24                  ECOP    has    been especially    effective in O                        POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT      (800) 262-4102
 
A 38 At AR                              8 1                  conducting leadership surveys in specific parts of                                                      the 2                  NU organization to help identify problem areas.
3                                        The ECOP organization is an independent, 4                  diverse group of site employees that reports to a high-5                  level manager at the site.
6                                        The    ECOP      self-assessments --                              the ECOP 7                  self-assessments          had been minimal.                            But we understand l
8                  that there's one currently under way.
9                                        The other area                            we looked at        is problem                            -
i                                    10                    areas.          As    part      of      its                    Safety-Conscious                Work g                              11                    Environment,        the  licensee has                          set  up    a program                  to W
12                    identify      and    resolve        problem areas.                            The    licensee 13                    defines problem areas as areas of personnel interaction 14                    where a safety-conscious work environment is challenged 15                    or does not exist.
.                                    16                                          It is      a novel                      approach  in being              more 17                    pro-active to        identify these                            areas before they              erupt l                            18                    into an organizational crisis.
19                                          The team evaluated the                            effectiveness of 20                    identifying and resolving the                                  problem areas.        We found
      $                              21                    that the      licensee      has made                    considerable progress                            to l                            22                    improve      its    identification                      and          resolution              problem j                              23                    areas.      However,      we did find                          some weaknesses in                this 24                    area.
O                                                                            POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT          (800) 262-4102 1
          ..,r.u                          ..,                          ,      ,,        ,,.      --  ,~-m.---,-,.-m4m.m,.            --,,,w.  , - . .    .,r.....-    .,,-  m . ,
 
39 O                      "9^t%AaEff918 1                  Safety-conscious work environment, self-2 assessments    and  the    long-range    plan.      The  team 3 recognizes that it      takes a long time for      employees to 4 develop  trust in    a  developing    and evolving    safety-5 conscious    work    environment    and  it  takes  time    for 6 management to avoid the occasional errors and eliminate 7 actions which may lead to a chilling effect.
8                  The    team expects that the licensee will 9 develop a long-range plan        which will define its future 10 course  of    action.      Such    a    plan  should    discuss 11 management's    expectations    to    continue    assessing    a 12 safety-conscious work environment program.
13                  The team also      evaluated the    licensee's 14 Employee    Concerns    Program  and Safety-Conscious      Work 15 Environment    Training    Programs.      We  found    that the 16 licensee    has  made    significant    improvements    in  the 17 training provided      to its    staff regarding the      safety-18 conscious    work environment      and the    Employee Concerns l
. 19 Program.
20                  Generally,    the    team  found    that  the
$  21 licensee's    program    provides    accurate and    meaningful I
=  22 training on safety-conscious        work environment and ECP, I
l  23 The licensee is also- ensuring the training records are 24 kept to  ensure that      training is    given to    those that O                        POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
40 MEETIN        R    14 I    TO!          UNITS 1          require      it      and    soliciting            and          using          feedback    to 2          determine that training's etfectiveness.
3                                    However,          the        team              found      that  the 4          licensee has deviated from its procedures and training 5          manual. We found three instances and those could be 6          considered as minor deviations.
7                                    We    also          looked              at        Little    Harbor 8          Consultants.              Overall,        Little Harbor                      Consultants has 9          been  effective            in      overseeing          the          Employee Concerns 10          Program      at Millstone              and      has      been            instrumental    in g                                11          providing            findings and recommendations to continue the ti 12          ECP improvements, 13                                    Perhaps because the programs and Safety-14          Conscious            Work    -Environment                have              recently    been 15          instituted, Little              Harbor Consultants has                            not been as 16          rigorous              in      evaluating              Safety-Conscious                    Work 17          Environment Programs,                    such as the program dealing with l                                18          problem areas.
19                                    Little Harbor            Consultants provided very 20          thorough              and            insightful                observations              and
  $                                  21          recommendations                in        reviewing                      the        licensee's k
22          Comprehensive            Plan.            Specifically,                      Little    Harbor l                                23          Consultants reviewed extensively the Millstone ECP, the 24          implementation of the ECP and the licensee's Corrective O                                                                          POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT            (800) 262-4102
 
!                                                                                                                41 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1      Action Program.
l                                  2                                  There  are many other areas which Little 3      Harbor Consultants has                provided significant    findings.
4      For            example,  Little    Harbor  Consultants    conducted 5      extensive interviews en an individual basis to assist 6      the ECP. And as Phil said earlier, it plans to conduct 7      a second            round of structured interviews      next month in 8      February.
9                                  Little    Harbor  Consultants    has  been 10      effectivo            also in    improving    the  weaknesses  in  the g                              11        licensee's              family  of  the  HIRD  cases,  harassment, u
12        intimidation, retaliation, discrimination cases.
O                          13                                  In reacting to    events which turned very 14      quickly into              a crisis for the    licensee, Little Harbor 15      Consultants has performed its own independent and very 16  = thorough investigations of such incidents as involving 17      disciplinary actions as in the MOV and training events.
(                              18                                  Little    Harbor  Consultants    does  not 19      appear to have evaluated sufficiently such programmatic 20        areas as ECOP            and Safety-Conscious Work      Environment's
(                              21        identification            and    resolution    of  problem    area.
22      Although              Little    Harbor    Consultants  has  not  yet i
[                            23        evaluated            the problem    areas, like  the elements    of a 24        safety-conscious            work environment, the      NRC's team did 3
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
42 i
Al AR                    98 1 evaluate      the problem          areas.          And we also    heard this
]                    2 morning that      Little Harbor                Consultants    planc as    its 3 very near future activities to address these areas.
4                    The  team              .ound that  Little    Harbor 5 Consultants was      slow in              tracking and    evaluating NU's 6 responses          to      Little                  Harbor      Consultants'    l 7 recommendations.        And,          also, Little Harbor Consultants 8 belatedly provided formal documentation of information.
9                    Overall,                the    team  found    that  the 10 Millstone      Employee          Concerns          Program      has    made
                                                                                                        )
g            11 significant improvements and is functioning adequately.
U 12 ECOP  was    slow to    develop but                now  it appears    to be 13 heading in the right direction.
14                    The  programs              in  the  Safety-Conscious 15 Work Environment        have just recently                been started    and 16 progress has      been    made              and  considerable    offort  is 17 expanded to identify problem areas, 18                    The  team found                some weaknesses    in the i,            19 resolution of      problem arer;                  And it  recognizes that 20 this  is a novel approach                      an effort for the licensee 3              21 to be  more pro-active to identify                      and resolve problem i            22 areas early.
g l            23                    Little            Harbor        Consultants    has  been 24 effectiva      in overseeing the                Employee Concerns Program O                                    POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
43 JA ARY        98 1 at  Millstone and has been ins *rumental                  in providing 2 findings      and  recommendations      to    continue      the    ECP 3 improvements.
4                    Of    course,    the  NRC will        continue    to 5 monitor    the licensee's      performance      in  its      Employee 6 Concernn Program and Safety-Conscious Work Environment.
7 The  NRC will    also continue      to monitor    Little Harbor 8 Consultants'      oversight activities and to hold periodic 9 meetings to discuss its findings and recommendations in 10 overseeing the Millstone        Employee Concerns Program and g  11 Safety-Conscious Work Environment.
U 12                    Thank you.
13                    MR. McKEE:    Thank you, Helen.
14                    Before I open it      ^o questions, I -- you 15 know,  we end    up using    a lot  of terms    here.          And I 16 thought    it might be useful just to mention one.                  We've 17 used it a lot tonight and we assume everybody knows it.
l  18 And  I'm going to      ra d the    definition.          It's safety-19 Conscious Work Environn.ent.
20                    What a Safety-Conscious Work Environment f
E 21 is  is defined as a work environment in which employees g  22 are  encouraged      to  raise    safety    concerns      and where s
l  23 concerns are properly        reviewed in the      proper priority 24 based  on    their    potential    safety    significance          and O                          POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT      (8001 262-4102
 
44 MEETIN    R    II    TOli  UNITS 1 appropriately    resolved      with    timely feedback    to  the 2
originator of the concerns and to other employees.
3                  That's      why we -- a lot of the focus and 4 some of  the emphasis on        some of the    success criteria 5 are on the corrective Action Program.            We think    that's 6 a fundamental program        in addressing and      dealing    with 7 concerns and that program,          hopefully, is    well used and 8 applied in    that direction.        And, also,    that feedback 9 and  people  are  aware      of  how    their  concerns    are 10 addressed.      So  that kind      of  provides    some  of the foundation of why we look in some of the P  11                                                      areas that we
  ?
12 do.
13                  With that,      I think we'll      complete this
    -14 topic and open it to questions.          I'm surprised    there's 15 questions    in this    area.      Well, let's    -- let  me try 16 someone new. The gentleman back there.          Oh,  Okay.
17                  This works.        You don't have    to turn it l  18 on.
19                  MR. ROBERT FROMER:          Okay. Good. I just 20 have a very simple --
f  21                  CHAIRPERSON LANNING:          Name?
b 22                  MR. FROMER:        Robert Fromer, New London,
[  23 Connecticut.
24                  CHAIRPERSON LANNING:          Thank you.
O                        POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT        (800) 262-4192
 
      - _ _ _ _ _ . _ _ _ . . . _ . .                                    _    _ . _ _ . ~ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ . . . __ _ _ _. _ .
i l                                                                                                                                                                        45 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()                                                                                  JANUARY 27, 1998 1;                                      MR. FROMER:                                    I just have            a very simple l
2            question about the Employee                                              Concerns Program.                In this 3            current eval --                                                                                                          '
i 4                                      A VOICE:                        We can't hear you.
5                                      MR. FROMER:                                In this current evaluation, 4
6            what  percentage                    of          employees                        are    raising        concerns 7            directly with NU versus going directly to NRC?
8                                      MR. McKEE:                            As always, a simple question
!                                      9            that doesn't            necessarily have a simple                                              answer.      There 10            are thousande and thousands of concerns that are -- not
  ,g                                  11            concerns.              Concerns may not                                      be the proper            term. But U
12            issues    that are                  raised                    by            employees throughout                the 13            program.
14                                        For                  instance,                        there's          thousands      of 15            corrective actions                          and reports                            that come up          that are 16            dealt through the normal line organization.                                                            So I think 17            even  in the            licensee's                            statistics,                when        they    show 18            corrective            action              issues                    compared to              --
you  know, I.                          19            corrective action issues, you know, the one statistics, 20            the concerns or allegations -- taking corrective action O
        ,.                          21            issues, there              are thousands of those                                          that are brought i
        .                            22            forward        to        the            licensee                        under          the        normal        line 1
l                            23            organization practice.                                  The              ratio of that, of concerns 24            that are          brought to                    the licensee's Employee                                Concerns POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT                              (800) 262-4102
 
46 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1  Program by itself is large.                                                And if you look      at other 2    programs,            I mean we're talking of thousands to one.                                          I 3    don't know the exact ratio.                                              It depends on what systems 4    you look at.
5                                      Dut when                    you look at it              from the other 6    aspect of things in the Employee Concerns Progr'am as to 7    deal with issues that                                  go outside the line organization
;                        8    where      employees or                            contractors                  or somebody      for that 9    matter feel                they don't feel comfortable                                    to go through 10      the line          organization.                              And those            numbers relative to g                  11      all  the issues                      that are                    brought up          at the  site are i u 12      small.          But, for                    instance, the numbers                        in the    chart 13      that we        have in                  one of                the graphs is            -- they    had a 2
14      trend of approximately 20, 15, down to about 10.                                                    There 15      was --      was an increase                                  in the Employee              Concerns, the 16      exact numbers it went up to about 35 in December, which 17      is a high rate.                        We've asked and talked to the licensee l                  18      about that to explain that number.
19                                      You              compare                  those    numbers    to  NRC 20      allegations.                  In NRC allegations, you go from October -
O                  21      -
we'll go September we                                        had 10, Oct W;r            we had five, I
  .                  22      November,            four, December                                two.        So you    can see    that 5
[                  23      ratio    of          concerns brought                                    to  the Employee      Concerns
,                      24      Program wac an off-line organization receiving concerns POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT                          (800) 262-4102
 
47 MEETIN      R    !I  STOli  UNITS 1  than the NRC.
2                                                    But  I    think    in    the  larger  picture, 3  co.mpared to the concerns that are raised and dealt with 4  in the line organization,                                        the ratios are substantially 5  higher, 6                                                    MR. FROMER:        You haven't    answered            my 4
7  question.                          It's a very simple question.                    Pick whatever 8  category                        you              want.      The total      number  of  employee concerns, what percentage of that total number has gone 9
10  directly to NU instead                                      of the NRC and what        percentage
,  p        11  has directly                                to the NRC?          Now, if you    don't have the U
12  answer, just say you don't have the answer,
,            13                                                  DR. TRAVERS:        Correct me if I'm wrong, 14  Phil, but I                              think the          answer in large      measure is            we
)_            15  don't have the answer.                                      And it's by virtue --
16                                                  MR. FROMER:        Fine.
17                                                  DR. TRAVERS:        But let me    see if I          can l        18  explain.                              It's by          virtue of    what    he was  trying to 19  explain to you.                                    And that is simply that to the largest f        20  extent -- and your                                    question is a relevant          one because
  'O          21  the            ideal                  is        a  situation      where    workers  who        have l        22  concerns raise it                                    to their supervisor and          they get it l        23  resolved in some fashion.
24                                                  Maybe the next step          would be the use of O                                                                POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
d I
I 48 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O                                                                                        3^2m^av 27, 1998 1
1                  an int 3rnal                  company Employee Concerns        Program.      Now, 2                  there are numbers associated with the second step.                            But i
31 1
we don't iave numbers associated with the first step.
I 4                                                    The ideal      would be that you      don't ever 5                  get          to uso          ECP because your      problams and    issues are 6                  getting resolvsd by the normal line process.
7                                                    And    the  next    step,  which    would  be 8                  perhaps an                    allegation submitted to        NRC because you're 9                  not comfortable with                      the Employee Conceras        Program or 10                    you          don't          think    it's  effective,    would  be  another
    $                          11                    indication -- we                    have numbers      -- and  we can    provide U
12                    those.                    And I think we've given you some indication of i                                13                    the numbers of allegations that NRC is receiving.
14                                                      im in our weekly -- I'm sorry -- monthly 15                    status                reports      has  been    giving us  numbers    on  the 16                    numbers                  of    concerns    rt.ised  through    the  Employee
.                                17                    Concerns Program, 18                                                      But what we don't have and what we think l,                          19                    is probably                    a significant number --        we certainly hope jf                              20                    so.            In          fact, we hope    the program they're      developing o
    .                          21                    would encourage                    to  the maximum    extent practical      the 1
5                          22                    idsntification                    and    resolution    of issues    within    the E
l                          23                    normal line processes.                      We don't have those numbers.
24                                                      MR. FROMER:      All right. Let me ask you POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT      (800) 262-4102 1
 
49
                                                                          ~~                          *"
O                                                                                3^tY^nMi918 1                  another question. And  let me indicate just a      general 2                  philosophy. The    straightest    distance between        two 3                  points is --  I mean the shortest distance between two 4                    points is a straight line.      And I hate to go around the 5                  Cape of Good Hope to get to those puints.                        ,#
6                                  DR. TRAVERS:      Why don't you -- well --
7                                  MR. FROMER:        Well, I    can provide    you 8                  this sheet, too. For instance, let me choose December.
9                  And I -- I don't    have a calculator, so I can't        do ':he 10                              percentage math.      But, for example, one of the cent.ral g                          11                              licensee's programs for dealing with issues through the u
                  .12                                    normal  line organization    is their    condition reparts.
  )
13                              And  in  December,    the  number    of  condition    roports 14                            initiated  for Millstone Unit 3 was 442.        The nunber of 15                            employee concerns that were received -- oh.          I'm sorry.
16                            Let me go  -- well, let's stay      with December.      442  in 17                            December. And there    were 35 Employee Concernu Program 18                            issues received in December.      And the    NRC ret.eived two 19                            allegations.-
                                                                                                                /
20                                              DR. TRAVERS:    Yes. I  hav'e to  stand O
.                            21                            corrected on it.      Condition reports -- I      was thinking l                            22 g                                                          of other kinds    of concerns. The    condit.f.on reports in l                            23                            really the nominal sense are an indicator of issues and 4                their introduction    into the system that corrects them.
O                                                                            POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT    (800)-262-4102
 
50 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998
(])
1  And                        to the    extent that                    the        issues    are    tracked as 2    condition repcrts, you                                        can use              that as  a measure          of 3  employees raising concerns.
4                                            MR. FROMER:                          All    right. Let's        cut to 5    the chase.                          Let  me ask you a simple --                            another simple 6  quePtion.                          Are the number                    of allegations from the time 7    that the issue -- from the time of the shutdown to this 8  point, are the number                                        of allegations leveling off, the 9    same, decreasing?                                Which way are they going?
10                                              CHAIRPERSON LANNING:                          To who?
Q    11                                              DR. TRAVERS:                        To NRC.
L' 12                                              MR. FROMER:                        To the NRC.
13                                              MR. McKEE:                    I      think, for the most, they 14    have -- they have stayed about the same, about the same 15      level throughout that period.                                                  You know.
16                                              MR.              FROMER:              So  the  intent        of  the 17      Employee Concerns                                  Program, as                  I understand it,            is to 18      reduce the number of allegations going to NRC vis-a-vis I    19      the employees                          have chosen, because                          of a trust          in the 20      company,                      to raise                  those      issues internally.                  So,  in O        ~
  ,    21      essence,                      what we're                  getting at              here and    what you're i    22      saying is nothing's really changed in terms of employee g
l    23      concerns.                            In  terms              of            allegations,    in    terms        of 24      resources, your                          staff must                        commit to deal      with these O                                                    POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT                      (800) 262-4102 k
 
51 MEETIN  R    14 I    TOli  UNITS 1 allegations which really should be dealt with in-house.
2 Am I correct in that statement?
3                  MR. McKEE:      Well,    I don't  know if    I 4 would -- I think --
5                  MR. FROMER:        Can Mr. --
can Dr. Thayer 6 answer that?
I 7                  DR. TRAVERS        Pardon?
8                                                you l                            MR. FROMER:          Can        answer    that
!        9 question?
10                  DR. TRAVERS        The    indication of --    and g      11 Little Harbor    has explained this probably          better than s
12 I'm able to. Certainly, the level of allegations is an 13 indication of    the health    of the      cafety culture    at a 14 nuclear power    plant and it's part of          the metrics that 15 we're  evaluating and      Little Harbor        is looking  at as 16 well.
17                  I think what      Helen mentioned about      the l      18 ability  to    turn  and  make    a  dramatic change    in  a 19 degraded  safety    culture,      which    was  our  belief    at 20 Millstone    --
in  fact,  management at        Millstone    has
  $      21 indicated that was what they found when they came in --
1 22 is something that you don't do overnight. I think it's
[      23 a longer-term    process.      It's a development      of trust.
24 It's a development of,      you know, trust on the        part of D
V                            POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i
 
k 52 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
(])                                                                  JANUARY 27, 1998 1    employees that isn't earned overnight.
2                          And              I    think  we  can            evaluate            the 3    situation as        we      tuink it            exists  today in            terms              of 4    programs        and processes              and the    way they            seem to              be 5    working today 6                          yr 'ie              proof of      the pudding --                  and I 7    think you'd probably agree with this -- is                                  the longer-8    term.        And  I suspect          that in the        longer-term if,                          in 9    fact,        they've    implemented              programs    and            continue to 10      effectively implement                  them such that workers feel free 11      to raise        safety concerns, that those                  kinds of numbers 12      would decrease.
13                            Millstone              numbers    are essentially                        the 14      highest        numbers in        the          United States            today for              the 15      submission of allegations                      to NRC. And          I think that's 16      indicative        of a      long-term,            long-standing problem                          at 17      Millstone        that isn't          one that        is easily            amenable to 18      rapid change.        And, yet,              some of the information                      that 19      we've getting        from su veys                that both the              company and
          .                            20      Little Harbor are performing                      is that that is              a change
      $                              21      by        virtue of  the responses                that  are being            given to I                            22      probing questions about willingness to raise issues                                                to g
l                            23      management, willingness                      to use the ECP            Program and so 24      on and so forth.
O                                                              POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT                (800) 262-4102
                                                  -we,,e                e,                                  + - - - +
 
53 MEETI!1G RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1                      But    is it  true    that there    are    still 2 relatively high levels            of allegations being        submitted 3 to NRC?        I think it is true.      And it has to be a factor 4 in  our assessment          of  the overall      issue  of how    the 5 program        is being    implemented      and whether    it can    be 6 judged as effective today.
7                      MR. FROMER:      Well, in my    opinion, until 8 in the        long-term they could      have significant      changes 9 and        have  a negative    slope    in  terms of    allegations 10 coming to the NRC and you do not have to expend as much g                                            11 energy and the energy is done in-house with NU, I think u                                                            .
12 that Millstone should stay shut down on that issue O                                          13 alone until they can demonstrate --
14                                  (Applause) 15                        MR. FROMER:      -- that    in the    long-term 16 they can        deal with    the employee concerns        and safety-17 conscious        work  environment,      which    apparently,      from l                                            18 everything        that    you've  said    this  evening    --
it 19 indicates        that while    they're making      an effort,      they 20 have        a long way to go and their effectiveness is still
$                                            21 very        poor in terms of      being able to      turn around that k                                            22 situation, i
[                                            23                        Do I  give    them    credit  for    making    a 24 strong effort?          What else could      they do?    Yes,    I do.
O                                                                      POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
54 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS Q                                                JANUARY 27, 1998 1 But in terms of the                          public safety and in terms                          of the 2 facts            that      have come          out    --
and we're      dealing with 3 facts.              We're not              dealing with speculation                          or rumors 4 here.            In    terms of the facts                          that have come          out, the 5 public, I don't think -- I'm talking about the                                                  general 6 public.                  I'm        not    talking            about            the  employees    at 7 Millotone              who try to drum up public support to open up 8 a plant because                      they want          to P ep their                    jobs. It's 9 that the public doesn't have et st, at                                                least myself as 10 a member of the public do                              not have trust that they can g  11 operate              this      plant          effectively                      in    terms  of  human a
12 resource management.                          And, therefore, until they can in 13 the long-term, they shoult 3tay shut down.
14                                Thank you.
15                                  CHAIRPERSON LANNING:                              Thank you.
16                                                (Applause) 17                                MR. McKEE:              I'll get to you, Don.
l  18                                MR. DELCORE:                Okay.
19                                  MR McKEE:            Mr. Halloway?
20                                  MR. MARK HALLOWAY:                            Good    evening. Mark
$  21 Halloway, Niantic, Connecticut.                                              I have a few questions i  22 here            in looking              over g                                                      one of                    the    handouts that    Mr.
S l  23 Markowic              was          so nice to show                          me. I  notice that the 24 HIRD            concerns has              a basically                      flat line      through '97 POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT          (800) 262-4102
 
55 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()                                  JANUARY 27, 1998 1 with  an upward spike in        December and then        it sort of 2 flattens    off, at    least through      the 21st      of January.
3 And  then  there was      a  note  there      that said    " Trend 4 improving."      Is -- how      can we take      these numbers and 5 look  at this as an improving trend?            This is basically 6 flat with a high spike and then flattening out again.
!                            7                  MR. '4cKEE:      The chart you      -- you know, 1
8 you  described that. That's          one of the -- Northeast's 9 indicators and that's their          assessments.      I  think if 10 you look at the    -- we have asked          --
I mean we    are --
p            11 have sv.no concerns    of what is      that spike in        December V
12 which would -- I agree with you, would make an argument
                          )
13 of the trend.      And that is an issue.            And we've asked 14 Northeast to look into that.          And they're looking          into 15 that to see if    there might be some rationale            or cause 16 or why that may have happened.
17                  MR. HALLOWAY:        But      even -- but,      Phil,
[          18 even  without the    spike, it's      still basically        a flat 19 line, which does not show an improvement, f          20                  DR. TRAVERS:        That's the same        question
              $            21 we asked them.
I          22 g                              MR. HALLOWAY:      Right.      So    the    NRC's l          23 feeling    right  now    --    and  I'm    interested    in    your 24 assessment -- is that that isn't an improving trend?
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT      (800) 262-4102
 
56 MEETIN    R    14 I    TO!  UNITS                        ,
1                  MR. McKEE:      A flat line -- I would agree 2 with you. You have to look at that.
3                  MR. HALLOWAY:        Okay. This is --
4                  MR. McKEE:          We asked that    question and 5 made  some observations.        I don't know how far back the 6 statistics -- you      know, they may be        referring back to 7 something    that's off the graph.            But from    you see, I 8 agree with you.
9                  MR. HALLOWAY:        One thing that I noticed 10  in  looking over    the handouts        was that    I had  seen a g 11  previous  sheet indicating          some  criteria    for  status 12  indicators    and  things      have changed.          They  haven't 13  necessarily changed in the data,            but they've certainly 14  changed in the definitions given to the data.
15                    Now  " meets        expectations"    has  become 16  "world-class",    " Requires management action" has become 17  " acceptable  for    restart."          Now,  this,    to me,    is 18  troubling    because    I    don't      think  that    you  can  --
I
. 1  obviously, you can't -- you wou.Tdn't want to change the 20  data. But then when you        attach different definitions
$ 21  to those data, that      doesn't -- that doesn't give          me a 8 22
. lot of confidence.
t l 23                    MR. McKEE:      I'm not sure.      Is that --
24                    MR. HALLOWAY:        That's the    Little Harbor POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT        (800) 262-4102 sww        a w    -
w -
 
57 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()                                JANUARY 27, 1998 1 assessment and their definitions --
2                    MR, McKEE:      As    I mentioned, I might let 3 them explain    that.      Little Harbor had      somewhat of      a 4 different scale that they used.            And although they use l      5 the same color scheme, red, yellow --
6                    MR. HALLOWAY:        Right.
7                    MR. McKEE:    I  mean green, yellow, red.
8 Their  expectations look        at    their attributes.      They 9 indicated that      this    was an      ideal. And their  green 10 represents, you        know, an ideal accomplishment or ideal g    11 in that environment.          So the scale is higher      in their e
rg  12 estimate. That  --
U 13                    MR. HALLOWAY:      But  that has  changed.
14 Phil.      That has changed from the          report that I saw of 15 three  weeks    ago.      Those      definitions    have changed.
16 There  was a    definition that        said --  and John  and I 17 talked about that.        So -- here we go, John.
  $    18                    MR. McKEE:          I'll    give    John  an 19 opportunity to --
20                    MR. JOHN BECK:        As a  matter of fact, we
  $    21 did discuss    that.      We  discussed      it on  Susan  Perry 8
22 Luxton's show about three weeks ago.            And our change of l    23 labeling on    those    gradations      of  our  evaluation  of 24 various performance        criteria was in direct response to G
    ~l POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT      (800) 262-4102
 
58 MEETIN            I    T NE UNITS 1 questions that    I got      from you      and  from Susan    Perry 2 Luxton    because  of      the  apparent    confusion    between 3 calling " expectation met" when that expectation was the 4 ideal. And that's our fault        that we didn't do a        good 5 job  with  making      it    clear    thae,  meeting    an  ideal 6 expectation in our view is world-class performance.
7                  So we apologize for not doing a good job 8 in the first place of        making that fact clear.        And  we i                                                  9 appreciate the input that you            gave us that allowed      us 10 to make it clear tonight, g                                                11                  Meeting an ideal          expectation is    world-U n                                              12 class. And as we discussed this morning on that point, V
13 we  went further    to    say  that    there    are  a  lot  of 14 operating    plants      that    operate    safely    that are    not 15 considered    to  be    world-class      operators    but they're 16 certainly responsible and safe operating plants.
17                  We would expect the Millstone reactor to l                                                18 restart,    or reactors,        when    they meet an      acceptable 19 level of    performance that's comparable to            those other 20 plants around    this country, meeting the            same level of f                                                21 regulatory scrutiny        and not necessarily to        have to be b
  =                                                22 world-class.
E l                                                23                  When      we  set up    our    gradations, we're 24 also very sensitive to          the fact that they ought        to go O                                                                      POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT        (800) 262-4102
 
i 59 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
( ).                            JANUARY-27, 1998 4
1 beyond an acceptable level      of restart and operation of 2 the facilities in their      long-range strategies.      And we 3 wanted    to be able to  make those judgments      on a long-4 term basis.      And, therefore, we go      beyond just simply 5 being    ready to restart and      would look to    them in our 6 continued    oversight,  however    long  that may  be. to 7 continue to make progress.        So that's why we've    got a B wider spectrum of gradations        and that's why we've made 9 the  judgment    that it's  acceptable      for restart  when 10 they're at    the neutrtl  yellow mark with      a hotizontal j      11 arrow, at least there      or better. Anything  below that Of 12 we don't think is acceptable for restart.
13                  Is that helpful?
14                  MR. HALLOWAY:    Well, it's -- and I don't 15 know whether it's      helpful or not, John,      because my --
16 my real worry is that these definitions change as we go 17 along. I know what you're trying        to tell me is  that 18 they've been further amplified by this.
  !    19                  MR. BECK:  Well,    I'm trying to tell you 20 that    ue    changed  them  to    be    responsive  to  your
  $    21 suggestions    and your criticism.      And-if it's still not
  - I-22 clear, I'll stay here as long as necessary --
l    23                  MR. HALLOWAY:    Well, it's --
24                  MR. BECK:  -- to make it clear.
O                          POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102
 
60 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()                                                                        JANUARY 27, 1998 1                                            MR. HALLOWAY:            It's very    clear to  me, 2                          John.
3                                              MR. BECK:    Okay.
4                                              MR. HALLOWAY:    Thank you.
5                                              A  VOICE:    Excuse            me. Could  that 6                        gentleman be identified please who just spoke?
7                                            MR. McKEE:      It's          John  Beck, who  is 8                        President of Little Harbor Consultanta.
9                                            MR. HALLOWAY:            My next question      has to 10                                  do with -- and, in fact, maybe we let John go too soon, g          11                                  But in terms of the selection of the interviewees --
U 12                                                      A VOICE:  Could            we hear your questions, V( 3 13                                  too, please?
14                                                      A VOICE:  Louder please.
15                                                      MR. McKEE:      You've just got            to hold it 16                                  close, Mark.
17                                                      A VOICE:  Real loud, Mark.
l          18                                                      MR. HALLOWAY:    Real loud.            Yes.
19                                                    A VOICE:  That's gcod.
20                                                      MR. HALLOWAY:              My next    question has    a
$          21                                  lot to do      with how the interviewees were              selected for b
=            22                                these --      for these  structured interviews.                Were they 5
l            23                                done on a random basis or were they done on a volunteer 24                                basis?
O                                                                    POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102
 
61 MEETIN RE      I    TOli  UNITS 1                  MR. BECK:    Our    process and intent is to 2 get a representative sample of the entire work force at 3 Millstone. So we  look at how the organization        is set 4 up, how many people are in        various organizations, and 5 we make a cut through the entire organization so we get 6 people from every element.
7                  This  time,    we    are  also  going to  be 8 looking at the    problem areas.      And we've skewed    some 9 attention    in that  direction so      that we'd  be tertain 10 that we've sampled those      areas that are known to        have l@                          11 some  ongoing difficulties      and that    we've got  a good 12 healthy representation in that regard.
13                  As we did last summer, we will interview 14 anybody  who  comes forward      and    says,  "I  want  to be 15 interviewed in this    process."      But we  also record our 16 data  in a  fashion  that allows      us  to include  those 17 volunteers    and to exclude them      as we analyze the data l                          18 so  that we can see whether or        not our bottom line has I.                        19 been biased one way or the other, f                          20                  You  know, you    could say,    well, people
  $                          21 are going to volunteer.      They're going to pack the hall b
22 and pack the ballot box and get a positive vote or vice l                          23 versa. People are going to come        forward with another 24 point of view. So we analyze it both ways.
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102
 
62
(}                                                                              A  kR            8 1                    Last  summer    when      we  looked    at    the 2 structured interview results,        there was no      difference 3 between    the  volunteer    population      and    the    overall 4 population. So  we'll be able to      see that, if      it is, 5 and we'll report it as such so everybody'will know.
6                    So we get  a representative sample.              We 7 get  the sample -- the people are          chosen by us.        There 8 will not be    any duplicates other      than perhaps in          the 9 volunteer population from last        summer.      We're going to 10 get  a completely      different set    of individuals        so we g                                                    11 don't get repetition.
0 12                    Any other questions on how that's done?
L 13                    MR. HALLOWAY:    Well, I      understand how 14 you're doing it.      My concern is that you're -- in doing 15 the volunteer basis, that you will get both ends of the 16 spectrum,    that you don't get -- you don't get the real 17 flavor    that you'd    get from    a total    random sampling.
18 You're going    to    get people    that    are going    to  feel
!                                                    19 extremely strongly      one way    or the    other.      And  that 20 could    swing  your    data  towards      a  very    positive
$                                                    21 assessment or a very negative assessment.
1 22                    MR. BECK:    You understand that if we can 5
l                                                    23 separate that out from all the non-volunteers, we would 24 be able to see a d.fference one way or the other.
A
\l                                                                          POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
__ ._    _  _      _      .      __    _        ~.    . _      . . _ _ _ _ _ _ - - _ _ . - . -
63 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()                                JANUARY 27, 1998 1                      MR. HALLOWAY:          Well, I just        -- I'm not 2    sure that  --
3                      MR. BECK:          We'll share    those    resulta 4    with you so you'll know --
5                      MR. HALLOWAY:        I'm    not  sure why            you 6    would  -- why you just wouldn't go on a straight random 7    sampling. To me, that would give you your best              --
8                      MR. BECK:      Because      we want to hear from 8
9    anybody who feels they want            to come forward and            talk, 10    rather than say no.      If we said no, somebody would come g  11    in here and say,      "I wanted to give input.          But I didn't 9
12    get selected. So I    got excluded.          So you    can't trust 13    the results."
14                                    (Applause) 15                      MS. BILLIE GARDE:          John?
16                      MR. BECK:          Ms. Billie Garde,        who is on 17    our team, would like to add something.
{  18                      MS. GARDE:        Let  me just    a couple              of 19    things  to that.      I  generally have been          a very strong 20    advocate of    random, pure        random sampling for        all the
  $  21    reasons that    pure random sampling is            generally a good
: a. 22    idea.
5 l  23                      We discussed, prior            to the first        batch 24    of  interviews that we did,          whether or not        to do pure POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT        (800) 262-4102
 
64 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()                                            JANUARY 27, 1998 1      random sampling;      take a list of        employee numbers, put 2      them in the hat, spit out          the numbers.          And we decided 3      that that    would not    give us the      information that we 4      needed to know across the spectrum of the whole plant.
5                        And so what we've done, although they're 6      not random selections,        they are selections,-you            know, 7      blind selections of numbers within particular groups so 8      that    every organization      within    the company        is being t
9      sampled.        Security guards,        administrative, engineers 10      from this organization, engineers from that shift.
j            11                        So in that context, it's not pure random e
12      sampling.        But it    is  a  blind      sample across        every 13      organization.      And that gives        us a lot        of data about 14      what's going      on within that particular group.-                And as-15      events    have  occurred    cince    we  did      our  structured 16      interviews, that's        been valuable        data to go      back and 17      look at. When the MOV event occurred, we went back and j            18      pulled everybody who we        looked at in the MOV            event to
  . l:
  .          19      see    what kind of information we got and kind of tested h          .20      ourselves.
O
  , _ . _    21                        In    terms    of    the    volunteers,        I don't b
  -          22      think we had -- I don't remember the exact number.                    But 5
l-          23      I    don't  think    we  had    more    than    a    dozen,    total, 24      volunteers in      the last batch.          If all of a        sudden we O                                      POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
65
({}                                          AI kR    2    98 1              got  80 volunteers, that may      very well lead    to a kind 2              of, you know, review of that        process. But in the last 3              group of interviews    we did,    I want to  say there    was 4              like eight. But it was less      than a dozen    people who 5              volunteered.
6                                If someone wants to talk      to us, though, 7              we don't want    to shut    the door in    any way that    they 8              want to contact us. And then, as he said,      when we ran 9              the data, the additions of volunteers didn't change the i    10              things one way or another.
g  11                                And when    we report    the data,    we'll be 9
12              able to tell you, "Here's      a run of this data      with the 13              volunteers and he's a run without the volunteers."
14                                On  the other    hand, let's    say somebody 15              volunteers because    they've had a      very bad  experience 1G              and  they want to make sure they're included.          We don't 17              want to  shut  the door    in    their face.      And as  you 18              remember,    last time we typed-all the text of what they
  !  19              said. We want to capture      that text and we want you to 20              know what that text is.      So we tried to strike a really 0
  ,  21              thoughtful    balance between purely random        and knowing k
22              what's going on across the site, which would be another l  23              valid criticism,    to come up with a      process that makes 24              sense  and provides    useful and      thoughtful information O                                      POST REPORTING SERVICE RAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102
 
66 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()                                                                                  JANUARY 27, 1998 1                                          for analysis.
2                                                            And we'll- just keep you posted.                If we
            -3                                                get a lot of volunteers, we'll let you know.
4                                                            MR. HALLOWAY:          Thank you.
5                                                            NR McKEE:        John?
6                                                            You'll be next, Don.
,                  7                                                            MR. DELCORE:        Okay.
8 MR. JOHN MARKOWICZ:          John Markowicz from 9                                          Waterford. I want to go back to Bob Fromer's question 10                                                because I'm kind of confused as to where we're at.
g        11                                                                  If  I  look      at      that  graph    that  was 0
12                                                presented  this    morning    regarding        HIRD  and Employee 13                                                Concerns  and    I look    at  --
I'm  going to- ignore the 14                                                December spike because I just want to do percentages                  a 15                                                second. If I    look back from, say, August            to January- ,
16                                                the    number -of      concerns        that  are    being  monthly 17                                                submitted, employee concerns,            is at 15. I mean that's l        18                                                a ball park,    plus or minus one.            The number of      50.7 19                                                HIRD, which    I would assume are            the protected activity 20                                                ones, are around three.        So that's like three, fifteen, 21                                                one-fifth,_20 percent.
B
  =        22                                                                  Okay. Now, the question          that I wasn't 5
  -l        23                                                clear on  the answers was how many            allegations are you 24                                                receiving per month?      Is it    --
O                                                                              POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT        (800) 262-4102 W
 
67 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()                                                                            JANUARY 27, 1998 1                                                                DR  TRAVERS:      We ere?
2                                                                MR. MARKOWICZ:      Yeah. Three?  Is it 10?
3 Is it 20                                    percent?                    So that gets    to Bob's    questions.
4 Forget                          about the                            --
I  don't want    to --  I'm talking 5 about percentages.                                                      I want to get    a rough feel. How 6 many allegations, excluding tha December spike, are you 7 getting on average since, say, August?
8                                                                CHAIRPERSON LANNING:        NRC now?
9                                                                MR. MARKOWICZ:        Correct. Allegations, 10 NRC allegations, g  11                                                                MR. McKEE:      I think the average is about c
12 five or                                six.                    And I    think in December    the number was 13 two.
14                                                                MR. MARKOWICZ:      Okay. So the number --
15 so    Bob's answer is about one-third -- well, no.                                                        You'd 16 have to add up -- you've had to get 15 to 20 to add the 17 allegations in.                                                    So if you add allegations to concerns.
l  18 it's 20 per month,                                                      five go to the NRC    as allegations, 19 three are HIRD.                                                    And    that's the ball park.      That  kind 20 of answers his question.
O 21                                                                MR. McKEE:      It's about a third, yes.
1 22                                                                MR. MARKOWICZ:      Okay.      Okay.      I E
l  23 understand the answer then.                                                        Thank you.
24                                                                MR.      DELCORE:          Donald    Delcore, POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT      (800) 262-4102
 
68            l MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()                                  JANUARY 27, 1998 1        Uncasville,    Connecticut.      Some observations          and some 2        questions. I look at the    paat, oh, since June                and I look at the occurrences which have come forth to Little 3
4      Harbor,    to  the  Employee    Concerns      Program,      to        the
:          5      Nuclear      Regulatory  Commission        with  regard      to        the 6        training    issue, with    regard  to the      MOV issue,            with 7        regard to the oversight issues that came up in November 8      where there was 10 individuals who had some substantial 9      problems and only because of the intervention of Little 10      Harbor was that pretty      much found and there's sort                  of g    11        some state of resolution at this point.
9 12                        The  very recent    issue      of  the Unit          3 13      Maintenance Department.        The issue of --        and I didn't 14      hear any of this      issue in any of the        presentations of 15        late. The  Nuclear Records Department had          a couple of 16        individuals who were fired as a result of            raising some 17      personnel sat'ety issues.
l  18                        While that certainly is not          relevant to 4
      !  19      50.7, it    is an issue    which Little Harbor        looks into.
20        It is an issue    which Northeast looks into.              And it is O
    ,    21      an issue    of the  environment with which          the employees I=  22      must function.
5 l  23                        Those individuals were also          reviewed by 24      the    Executive    Review  Board,  which,      as    you        know, POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102
 
69
(])                                          JAN  R          98 i
1 publicly NU assured both the NRC, members of the public                                          l 2 and Little Harbor            that it would        take steps to  ensure 3 that    the cases    were reviewed            before  the individuals 4 were fired.      That certainly wasn't the case in the case 1
5 of the Nuclear Records issue.
6                    If you're          not up to speed      on that, let 7 me recommend      that you, Helen,            and you,    Phil, take                      a 8 look    at    that issue        because      it's  still  yet  to                  be 9 resolved      and it's        indicative      of what's    going on                  at 10 Millstone with management.
  $          11                    Now, with respect to that, let's go back g~        12 and look at      the fact        that there was      training in              the s
13 September time frame which was                  pretty much a result of 14 the MOV and the training issues which NU claimed had to 15 be done.        They went to the Ramada and they trained for 16 a whole day to get these guys up to speed.
17                    But then we had the oversight issues and l          18 the maintenance      issues and the Nuclear              Records issues 19 and all the issues that none                  of us in this room know a 20 thing about and only NU knows about.                  Okay?
O
  ,          21                    And I        would      suggest to    you  that              the b
5 22 training wasn't adequate.                And so we've      had some more 5
l          23 training,      another half a day of training.              And I would 24 suggest to      you that maybe there            isn't enough training O                                  POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT          (800) 262-4102
 
70 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNT.TS
()
JANUARY 27, 1998 1  and  maybe you    need to look    at a lot        of these issues 2  that's going on.
3                    But, more importantly, the issue              of all 4  these things that are taking place is indicative of not 5  an  atmosphere    that  is a  relevant        environment      that 6  people  want to be    in to bring        any kind of      a concern 7  forward.
8                    And while    your position is          to look    at 9  50.7  issues,    I think  it's    very,        very important      to 10  understand that an atmosphere          that has other issues in g    11  it is indicative of the way      the company does business, e
12  And until    that  culture is    restored          and a    trust  is 13  restored  in the    employees,    the culture        is going    to 14  continue to be there.
15                    Yes,  as Mr. Travers pointed            out, it's 16  going to be a    very, very long-term issue.            So  I would 17  expect that we    wouldn't be rushing to judgment here in 18  issuing  an  okay to    a restart        when    we don't    have a l-
. 19  handle on what's going on.
20                    Again    we're      talking      about    Shirley 0
21  Jackson saying "A resolution        to the problems, not some i
. 22  more plans and programs."      So that's an important point I
l    23  that I want to make to you.
24                    And    there  is      a    perception      that  I O
  \~#                          POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
71 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1 recognized at                                                  the meetings that 50.7 issues seem to --
2 seem to                      have to                              separate themselves from                  those other 3 issues.                                              And my        point about      that            is it's    the same 4 environment and there's                                                      no separation.              It    might be a 5 discrimination issue with regard to race or color.                                                                      It 6 may be a discrimination issue with regard to a safety -
7    personnel safety                                                  issue,                                    the same But        it's still 8 environment.
9                                                                And  when    employees              are screwed      with, 10 without trying to use a better word, it still sends the g  11 same message.                                                  And it      doesn't have              to be    associated 0
12 with  nuclear,                                                even    though    that              nuclear environment 13 certainly is of interest to the NRC.
14                                                                So the    culture's      got to            change.      And 15 there's no other way to                                                      go about it.              And we    will see 16 that  there                                              won't    be    the  need          for    HR  issues    and 17 legalistic approaches and all                                                      of the other things that
{  18 we've  seen                                              time    in  and    time    out over            this    whole 19 sequence.                                                It's not necessary.            You've got            to change 20 the culture and change the environment.                                                                  And I wouldn't O
  ,  21 be too quick                                                  to be    giving a restart                okay when      we're 1
  -  22 having that.
l  23                                                                Along with those        issues that I              raised, 24  those series of issues which went from training all the O                                                                    POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 I
1
 
72 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
(}                                                  JANUARY 27, 1998 1 way  to  the most                      recent  issue    with the    Maintenance 2 Department, one of- the thingt that I found --                                I was a 3 person,    incidentally,                      that  was    called  by  the    two 4 individuals                  who      were  fired in    the  Nuclear    Records  .
5 Department.                        They didn't choose to go        to the Employee 6 Concerns Program.                        They didn't choose to go to the boss 7 that  fired                    them.      They didn't    choose    to go    to the 8 Executive Review Board who supposedly was going to look 9 out for them and take care of the problem.                              They didn't 10 go to    the Employee Concerns Program and they didn't go g      11 to Little Harbor.
9 12 (g
f-They    came to somebody      that they didn't 13 even  know.                          They didn't      --
I    never    met  those 14 individuals                    before in my life.          They looked up my name 15 in the phone                      book and they called me and said, "We got 16 this problem."
17                                      Now,  I  relayed    that    information      to l      18 Little    Harbor                      and    Little      Harbor    relayed    that 19 information                      to  NU. Little    Harbor  directed    those 20 individuals to the Employee Concerns Program.
  $      21                                      You talked today about the effectiveness I. 22 of    the    Employee                      Concerns      Program.        How    many 5
l      23 interventions have been                          taking place by      Little Harbor 24 and those of us that have sent them to Little Harbor in O-                                              POST REPORTING SERVICE i                                                HAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102
    \
 
73 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()                                  JANUARY 27, 1998 1    lieu  of people taking the option to go to the Employee 2    Concerns    Program    or  their        boss?              That's                a  better 3    indication    of    the  effectiveness                    of          the        Employee 4    Concerns Program.
5                      Therefore, you need to get together with 6    Little  Harbor    and    Northeast          Utilities                      and      make  a 7    determination    as to    how many          of those                    issues Billie 8    Garde    or  somebody      else          in    the                Little              Harbor 9    organization has intervened.              And, therefore, I suggest 10    to you that the      effectiveness that we're talking about
;g      11    of  the  Employee      Concerns          Program            is          substantially u
fg  12    reduced because of that.          Okay?        In fact,                        my personal V
13    opinion is    that there's more consulting                                going on than J
14    needs to be.
15                      Now, I'm not an individual,                                    even though 16    Mr. Kenyon us in my group as being "Gotcha" type people 17    -- Little Harbor's job is to observe how NU -- how                                          the i    18    system  is working and how NU deals                      with it.                    It's not 4
g
  !    19    their job to notify        NU that the problem exists.                                    It's 20    not  their job to help mitigate it.                      It's not their job
  $    21    to help mediate it.
I    22                      And because of all their involvement, it g
s l    23    has  effectively looked        to everybody                    that the              ECP is 24    effective, notwithstanding the job                      that Mr. Morgan                      is POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT      (800) 262-4102 4
 
74 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1
                              -doing because I think he's doing a good job.
2                                                    But      think the I              effectiveness    of the 3                            Employee Concerns Program itself            is undermined by -the 4                            oversight        group that you put      in there to    look at it.
5                            And that needs            to be changed. And I'm not trying    to-6                            publicly chastise Billie Garde, John Beck, John Griffin
      '7                            or anybody else, because they're doing a good job.                But 8                              I  think that my observations          of what goes    on is that 9                              they're        reducing    the effectiveness      but  it looks  to 10                              everybody like          the ECP is getting the people and doing g  11                              a better job.          Big problem.
-v 12                                                    There isn't any question in my mind that 13                              the    issue that        Mark raised    a few minutes ago -about 14                              lowering        the standards    is an  absolute,    No question
    -15                              about it.        We had    a standard that    says this  company 16                                fully meets      the expectations.      We changed    that to  a 17                              world-class        position and essentially took lower levels-
{  18                                that  were levels that        were lower    before and  we made 19                                those acceptable.        You can look at it      any way you want 20                                to  look at      it. It's a  reduction of -the standards.
$  21                                It's absolutely not acceptable,
.t  22                                                    And  I think  it's    in response    to  the 5
'l  23                              Union of Concerned Scientists response to what they saw 24                                at the December        12 Commission meeting and- it's also a O                                                            POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
75 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()                                                              JANUARY 27, 1998 1 response to                                        the criticism by our      group towards Little 2 Harbor with regards to assigning those marks.
3                                                      What  we saw    at the    Commission meeting 4 was 15 out                                        of 16  attributes that were        in the    yellow 5 range and only one                                        was Fully Meets Expectations, which 6 was green.                                        That's not at all what it looks like today.
7 Problem.                                      So you need to address that.
8                                                      There wm    a Finding No. 5.        I only wrote 9 it down                                      as No. 5. And it    deals with mutual        respect l    10 that went on today                                        and it was part of        Little Harbor's g  11 review.                                        I've got to tell      you something.      I worked at 9
12 Millstone                                      for  13  years.          talked          a O 13 contractors.                                          And I  will I
tell to      lot  of you, contractors      at i    14 Millstone                                      are  treated    like    dirt.      Okay?      They're 15 treated like dirt.                                        That's not changed.
16                                                      You  can come    up  and show      me lots  of 17 examples                                      of  people  that    are  contractors      that  are
{  18 relying on keeping their job that will come forward and 19 identify to                                        you that  they're being      treated properly.
20 And        I can show you                                  just as many people who will come
  $  21 forward and                                        say they're    not treated like        the average 1
  -  22 employee in there.                                        They're treated like dirt.
5 l  23                                                      That's an atmosphere that has to change.
24 And when                                      that changes,    the culture's going        to change O                                                            POST R2 PORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102
 
76 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O                            3^"u^*v 2'' 1* 3 1 because    that's going    to  show an      improvement in    the 2 people and the way they're doing business.
3                  The Executive Review Board, for            my part 4 so  far with regard to the issue on the Nuclear Records 5 Department, has not shown        me its ability to adequately 6 review an issue of firing or termination, a letter in a 7 folder or    whatever    kind of    discipline,      because  the 8 facts    were before them and      they still fired those two 9 individuals.      It doesn't make        any sense at    all to me
!    10 what happened. And you really need to look into that.
  $  11                  As    I told    you, we U
need a    commitment.
(g 12 I'd  like to hear a commitment tonight by Little Harbor V
13 that    they're  not  going    to      involve    themselves  in 14 identifying issues to Northeast Utilities, that they're 15 going to take inputs from us        and those of us that        are 16 getting concerns      and  they're      going  to    follow  NU's 17 response and    identification of that issue            and see how l  18 they react to it and correct the problem.
  ;  19                  But I'll    tell you something.          When you 20 identify    it to    NU --  and I'm not        -- again,    I'm not O
  . 21 trying to say    to NU "We're coing to let          you find it."
l
  =  22 But  if we're    going    to show      the  world that    they're E
l  23 effective in doing it, we need to let them find it.
24                  The issue isn't that there's a "Gotcha".
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
77 JAt    R            98 1 We've just got                                                  to let    them find the        problem so  that 2 that        group                                            can effectively        evaluate    whether they're 3 able to handle the problem.
4                                                                Once  the    problem      is identified  right 5 now, folks, they're going                                                      to handle it.      They  want to 6 start up.                                                    They'll  dump every        resource they    have to 7
have to get that problem resolved, especially when they 8 know          Little Harbor knows about it and we know about it 9 and it's going to be public.
10                                                                But how about looking at them where they l    11 find the problem, they fix the problem and these guys
\ -
p 12 evaluate it?                                                  So I'd like to see a commitment from them O 13 that says they're not going to get involved in it.
14                                                                DR. TRAVERS:        Don,    can  I  ask you  a 15 question?
16                                                                MR. DELCORE:        Yes.                          !
17                                                                DR. TRAVERS:        In fairness to others who l  18 may want to ask us questions -- and we can come back to 19 you --
20                                                                MR. DELCORE:        Okay.
  $  21                                                                DR. TRAVERS:          It seems    like you  have k.
22 more in this segment.
E l  23                                                                MR. DELCORE:        Okay.
24                                                                DR. TRAVERS:          I'm not  going  to wait POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT      (800) 262-4102
 
78
(}                                                                    Ali AR        98 1 until the end, but                                          --
2                                                        MR. DELCORE:      Okay.
3                                                        DR. TRAVERS:      --
in fairness to    others 4 who might want to ask questions, do you have many more?
5                                                        MR. DELCORE:      I've just  got a  couple 6 more conaents.
7                                                        DR. TRAVERS:      Go ahead.
8                                                        MR. DELCORE:      It does take time to solve 9 these problems.                                          And for my part, more time's got to be 10 allotted                    here.                        We are      shortening the time    up and we g  11 don't want to.
2 12                                                        There's two things we need to accomplish 13 here. Let's have                                          more time to get a        better appraisal 14 of their                      effectiveness                            in dealing  with problems    and 15 let's have some allotted specific period where we don't 16 see problems or we see the norm like we see in the rest 17 of  the          industry                                  and      again they  were  effective  in l  18 resolving it.
19                                                        And, again,      same as I pointed    out this 20 morning about the --                                              earlier, I mean, about      the wheel
$  21 and the            Restart Assessment                                      Plan, I think    we're going I
. 22 really too fast here and we need to give                                                  them a period E
l  23 to evaluate it.
24                                                        In closing, we brought a lot of problems fh V                                                              POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
79 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()                                                          JANUARY 27, 1998 1 to        you.                          A number    of them are    very important aspects 2 about the ECP and workplace environment arena. I would 3 feel very comfortable, I know a lot of other people out 4 there                                would feel  very      comfortable if      the NRC    would 5 convey                                to the  public that you      won't allow      a restart 6 until                                these issues are resolved.          Okey?  Not that they  7 7 have                            a plan, not that they submit something to you and 8 say,                              "In    the  long-term,      we're going      to  have  this
;      9 fixed."                                We would    like to see them resolved.          I don't 10 want to                                see any more plans.        I don't want      to see any g  11 programs.                                  I've observed them since 1968.            And I don't 12 want to see any more.
{~                                                              I  want to see      it fixed. And 13 that's why I'm here.
14                                                Thank you.
15                                                DR  TRAVERS:    Thank you.
16                                                          (Applause) 17                                                MS. NANCY BURTON:        Good    evening. My l  18 name is Nancy Burton.                                    I'm an attorney --
19                                                CHAIRPERSON      LANNING:        Please use    the 20 mike.
O
  ,  21                                                MS. BURTON:      Oh,  I'm sorry.      Pardon me, b
22                                                CHAIRPERSON LANNING:        Thank you.
l  23                                                MS. BURTON:    My name is      Nancy Burton.
24 I'm an                                attorney. I don't live around here.          I live in POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
80 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
(}                                                                        JANUARY 27, 1998 1 Connecticut, in Redding, Connecticut.                                                      And so I haven't 2 had occasion to read very much                                                      lately about what      has 3 been going on here.                                                  But I thought the plants were shut 4 down. And I have just recently been reading that there 5 are    plans              by                                  the Nuclear    Regulatory  Commission    to 6 consider allowing one or more of them to restart.
7                                                        And          I must    tell you  to convey    to you 8 from where I                                  live, we                  think you people    must be  mad, 9 absolutely mad.                                                  I have three comments that I'd like to 10 address    to remarks                                                that have    been made    this evening g  11 that have just struck me as very remarkable.
s gg 12                                                        A Mr. John Beck, who is President of the
'V 13 Little    Harbor                                              Consultants group,      said here  that the 14 plants here in Waterford do not have to be                                                      world-class 15 in  order          to                                  be          permitted to    operate  and  generate 16 electricity, 17                                                          I think        that's what    he said. And I'm l  18 sure    he'll correct me if he didn't                                                  say that. But I'd 19 like him to understand                                                    that in Connecticut, we have      a 20 first-class state.                                                    This isn't the    Third World.      New
$  21 London,    Waterford,                                                Mystic,    these  are    first-class b
-  22 communities                            and                        they  hold  the  future  really    for 5
l  23 Connecticut with all                                                    of the possibilities    for tourism 24 and all    the natural beauty that                                                  is here. We  are not POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT          (800) 262-4102 o
 
81 MEETIN RE      I    T    UNITS 1 second or third-class. We are first-class.
2                  And  why a consultant would be permitted 3 to start  at a level which is      lower than tops, I don't 4 underr eand that  because this is a      technology which is 5 perilous  and it    requires    absolute    adherence to    the 6 highest standards. Maybe  he can address that.      And I 7 hope he will, 8                  I heard    from the gentleman      here on the 9 right that the level of      allegations from workers at      a 10 nuclear power plant is      a measure of the health      of the g    11 nuclear power plant.
9 g 12                  Is that what I heard you say, sir?
O  13                  DR. TRAVERS:      It's  a measure of -- it's 14 one measure that    we use  and are using      to assess  the 15 health of  the safety culture      or safety-conscious work 16 environment.
17                  MS. BURTON:      Right. That's  what  I
  $    18 thought  you    said.      And    you  were    referring  to 19 allegations. The allegations      by Millstone workers are 20 the highest in    the United      States. Is  that what  you 21 said?
I=  22                  DR. TRAVERS:      That's what I said.
5 l  23                  MS. BURTON:    Now, are these allegations 24 allegations which have been found to be founded?
O                        POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT      (800) 262-4102
 
82 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1                                                      DR. TRAVERS:          We're recording the number 2                                    of    allegations,      not                ones the                  that  have      been 3                                    substantiated    by the    agency, but          just the  numbar of 4                                    incoming allegations, alleged              either technical    issues 5                                    or  harassment,    intimidation,            retaliation,  the    HIRD 6                                    issues, those kinds of things.
7                                                      MS. BURTON:          And have you    kept a tally 8                                    of all the allegations that have come in?
9                                                      DR. TRAVERS:          That have come in?
10                                                      MS, BURTON:          Yes.
11                                                      DR. TRAVERS:            Yes. That's what      I was 12                                    referring to.
O  13                                                      MS. BURTON:          Are they all investigated?
14                                                      DR. TRAVERS:            They are  all evaluated, 15                                    yes.
16                                                      MS. BURTON:          And what    proportion have 17                                    been found to be frivolous and without merit?
l    18                                                      DR. TRAVERS:          Don't know the number.
19                                                      MS. BURTON:          You    don't know the number?
20                                    Have any?
$    21                                                      CHAIRPERSON          LANNING:      Well,    ir,  our k-22                                    evaluation    of  allegations,            a  few  turn  out    to  be I
l    23                                    unimportant. But that's not        --
24                                                      A VOICE:    Frivolous.
Ob POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
83 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1                CHAIRPERSON LANNINGt      Yes. But what  is 2 more important is that we have received thq allegation.            .
3 That's very important to the NRC, regardless of whether 4 or not it's proved to have merit.
5                MS. BURTON:      That is quite    a record to 6 have for a nuclear power plant.      I was -- I'm sorry.      I
                                                      '7 was  listening carefully to Helen Pastis -- is it?          And 8 I understand that      you have been at the plant recently?
9 You were referring to December      8 through the 12th      and 10  January -5 through the 9th.      Was that December 1997 and g                                          11  January 1998?    Is that correct?
    .V 12                  MS. PASTIS:    Yes.
13                  Am    I also  correct in      my understanding 14  that during that -period of time,      the plants had      been 15  shut down?
16                  MS. PASTIS:    Mm-hmm.
17                  MS    BURTON:  And would you agree with me i                                        18  that nuclear power plants      do have potential      for high J. -                                          19  danger if they're not run properly?
: f.                                      20                  CHAIRPERSON LALNING:      Stis is not -- can o
            .                                        21  I just interrupt please a second?
l--                                      22                  MS. BURTON:    I wish you wouldn't.
l-                                      23                  CHAIRPERSON LANNING:      Well, I know. But 24  I  don't really  appreciate the    way you're      asking the O                                                          POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
84 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
({}                                            JANUARY 27, 1998 1                questions.
2                                  MS. BURTON:    Well, please don't      try to
        -3                restrict my verbiage.      Thank you.
4                                  CHAIRPERSON    LANNING:      We're  trying to 1
5                inform and be responsive to the questions.          But  you're 6                really    not asking    questions in    the sense    of getting 7                information.
!        18                                  MS, BURTON. I think I am.
9                                  What I'd    like to  know,    Ms. Pastis  -- '
10                excuse me. Yes  -- is, if I understood        you correctly, 2g 11                that during this      recent period of    time when~you    were f                          .                                                              ,
12                conducting-interviews and evaluation
    .O,                                                                  at the plant, you 13                understood that there are      still problem areas in-areas 14                that you    discussed    in terms  of the    safety-conscious    l 15                work environment.      Is  that correct?      I  think that's 16                what I heard you say.
17                                  MR. McKEE:    That's correct.
18                                  MS. BURTON:    Yes. I thought so.      And,
    . 19                also, that there are continuing problems with something-20                --
a  new acronym    I've  learned    tonight, harassment, o-21                intimidation, retaliation -and    discrimination.        I'm      ,
[-                                                                                          !
22                really shocked    to understand    that that is      an acronym      !
  -l_    23                that is part of your discourse in the regulation of the 24                nuclear    power industry.      There    is no    other industry      I POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
85 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
(])                                      JANUARY 27, 1998 1  that  I'm aware of where there would be such an acronym 2  nor  would it  be permitted        to exist,  let alone    be a 3  continuing problem, 4                    So what      I'm trying      to say is  that I'm 5  having a very hard time understanding how there can              be 6  a  continuing  problem      of      harassment,  intimidation, 7  retaliation,                          and discrimination              problems    with  the 8  safety-conscious work environment            efforts while    these 9  plants    are not even in operation.          And I hope that you 10  will seriously consider that.
Q            11                    And I      want to leave time      for others to 12  speak. Thank you.                                                  4 13                    DR  TRAVERS:        Thank you.
14                                (Applause) 15                    CHAIRPERSON      LANNING:      Susan?      Susan 16  hasn't asked questions.
17                    MS,  PERRY LUXTON:-        Susan  Perry Luxton 18  from Waterford, Connecticut.          I'd like to -- for Little I            19  Hirbor, also. But I want to a' art with the NRC because f            20  I like to.
        $            21                    Let's      see. Now,    we're talking about c 1
22  safety-conscious    work    environment,        Am      right in g                                                                        I
[            23  understainding that Millstone remains          at the top of the 24  list for    allegations from the          NRC on a  yearly basis?
O                                    POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT. (800) 262-4102 5
k
 
f a
86
()                                                                              All AR                            98 1          Isn't  that what we were just talking about?                                                  They have    ,
i                                    2          the most allegations?
3                              DR. TRAVERS:                              That's what I                  said. And 4          that's correct.
5                              MS.            PERRY              LUXTON:                        Okay.      Now,  if 6          Millstone is on                the top of the list,                                    what has the NRC
!                                  7          done  in regard              to    what's happened                                  in    the last  six 1                                  8          months or    in the              last, say,                      the last year                regarding 9          these allegations?                I want to know specifien.
10                                DR. TRAVERS:                            Well, we've done a host of g                            11            things, I mean        by virtue of                            our programmatic look                    at s
12            safety-conscious work environment.                                              But      most directly, 13            in response to individual allegations,                                                    we evaluate the 14            allegations.        We try to address the issue and get back 15            to the alleger to tell him how -- or her how it's being 16            df9 positioned.
17                                But in the broader sense, we're here.                                                I 18            mean there's an order that's in place at Millstone that
~I 3.
  .                            19            recognizes the        historical problems at Millstone.                                              The 20            plants  are shut down for about two years, a little bit
  $                            21            more.      The  NkC              has a            special                  organization          that's
' I                            22            focused directly on that                          issue, amongst others, in our l                            23            Restart Assessment Plan.
24                                So, hopefully, we've had some success in POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT                        (800) 262-4102
 
__=
l                                                                                                                                                                                i i
87            I O                                                      "9"Y^aNPfsl a""                                                                                                    l l
.                            1                communicating over              the months that                    we've been looking i
i                            2                at  this  issue and                others      just what                I          think you're j                            3                asking. And  that is,                    you know,            what are                      we doing.
;                            4                Well, we're doing a lot.
5                                We're                  evaluating.              We've approved                                  an 6                independent    contractor                    to          help      us                assess,                  an
;                            7                independent    contractor who we                          feel has                the requisite
)
i                            8                expertise that some                  of us don't because these areas do 9                not    encompass    hard                    requirements            by                the          Nuclear 10                Regulatory Commission.                      There is no            1.cquirement for a g                    11                safety-conscious work environment in their development.
u 12                Nevertheless, we recognize that                            in the absence of one, 13                plants can develop problems that can bear on the safety 14                and operational safety of the facility.
I 15                                  So      we've              done        quite      a          lot.                  We've 16                emphasized -- and I think you've heard Chairman Jackson 17                emchasize  her  commitment to                        evaluating                    these issues l                    18                before restart. And that's, in sort of a capsule --
19                                  MS, PERRY                    LUXTON:            Okay,              In          a broad, 20                general sense.
4
    $                    2.1                                DR.          TRAVERS:            Well,          it's a                    little bit 22                general. But I could go on for --
l                    23                                  MS        DERRY              LUXTON:            Okay.                  Because                  --
24                well, I guess maybe I should have been more specific on POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT                    (800) 262-4102-
      . , , - , - - - . .                  ,    ,                ,--,,,,n- - , - , -                    -c -
                                                                                                                          ~ - - - ,                .-
c- - . . - - - - - , , -.
 
_ -    _ _ -  _ - - .        - ~_.- -. - .-                - - . _                            - . - . . .        _ - - - - . _ . .
l 88 O                                            "9^>5^ AMU 918 1                1        my question because I see, instead -- my perspective on 2        what you've done -- I see NU has done a lot of changing 3        and      they have done -- and they have made improvements.                                                I e                                                                                                                                        ,
4          I woulo admit that.
5                                    But  I    don't    see                you    as      doing      much l                6          because I think            you're deferring everything to                                Little 7          Harbor.            For instance, the chilling effect.                                What have 8          you been doing about this chilling effect incident that l
,                9          happened with the training, in the summer                                          of 1997 with 10          training, chilling effect?                    Have you done -- have                              you 11          talked            to these  allegers, these                      hundred allegers                  or 12          whatever            -- okay. Twelve times six, 60 allegers.                                    Say 4
13          you've            had six allegations in a year.                          Have you talked 1
l              14          to those allegers?                Have you        investigated?                      Have        you 15          investigated their allegations?                                  That's what I want to 16          know.
17                                    DR. TRAVERS:                  That      issue        is    under l        18          evaluation, in fact, by the -- by the agency.
19                                    MS. PERRY        LUXTON:                That issue          is under 20          evaluation.
;$              21                                    DR. TRAVERS:        That's right.                          That's all 1
      .        22          we can say to you.
I l        23                                    MS. PERRY        LUXTON:                  Okay.          Let's      see.
24          What is -- I don't-understand --
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT        (800) 262-4102 4
                                                                            - . - ~ . . - , .        _                            _
 
89 MEETIN    R  !I    TO!  UNITS 1                  DR. TRAVERS:    And    the reason I can only 2 say  that is  because in    the process    that we    use for 3 those evaluations, we don't talk in public about them--
4                  MS, PERRY LUXTON:      Oh. Okay.
5                  DR. TRAVERS:    -- until they're complete.
6                  MS. PERRY LUXTON:      All right. How about 7 this?    What is the NRC doing to coordinate what Little 8 Harbor  Consultants    has  found  and    what  is    coming 9 directly  to the    NRC?    Because there    are allegations 10 coming to  the NRC.      Little  Harbor    is involved    with P  11 incidents that    have occurred    in the last    six months.
12 And  so in order    for the public,    you and NU    to get a 13 clear picture of the whole of the safety-conscious work 14 environment, if you    want to use    NU's term, the      whole 15 culture of what's going on at Millstone, you need -- we 16 need -- you    need to    coordinate with them.        Have  you 17 done that?
18                  MR. McKEE:    Well, the    allegations don't 19 come directly    to Little Harbor.      It's either -- either 20 the  concerns  are  brought  to the    Employee    Concerns
$  21 Program. In some cases, issues are brought to us via,
: k. 22 you know, allegations, i
l  23                  MS, PERRY LUXTON:      Right. That's what I 24 mean. Allegations, Mr. McKee. Your  allegations and O                      POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
90 MEETIN  R    I  STOllE UNITS 1 then their findings.            Have you been coordinating that?
2                          MR. McKEE:    Well, some    we've assessed 3 the allegations that have gone to the Employee Concerns 4 Program in comparison to those                that coes to us. And 5 it's not necessarily a            one-for-one correlation.      Those
,    6 issues that go to            Employee Concerns may or may      not --
7 sometimes they also may be brought to the NRC.
8                          MS. PERRY LUXTON:      Well, I  guess I'm 9 asking that, Mr. McKee, because it inspection reports I 10 have not            seen lately any allegation      violations or any g  11 allegations addressed in inspection reports, u
12                          MR. McKEE:    Yes. In inspection reports 13 you won't.            You'll see that the allegation issues -- it 14 was mentioned            before the process calls      for our review 15 of            every allegation  that comes    in and  the follow-up 16 process.              Oftentimes  those    iusues  are  covered  by 17 inspections.              But the    inspections    don't  go for  --
18 actually, you            know, protection- of the      alleger, don't
  . 19 necessarily identify the alleger.                But they are -- they 20 are issued and identified.
3  21                          MS. PERRY  LUXTON:      But  aren't  they 1
22 identified in            the inspection report as      coming from an l  23 allegation or not?
24                          CHAIRPERSON LANNING:      No.
O                                POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102
 
91 Al AR          98                              v 1                  MR. McKEE:    No.
2                  MS. PERRY LUXTON:      They're not?      Okay..
3                  CHAIRPERSON      LANNING:    No. That's very 4  important. There's a reason that we don't do that.
5                  MS. PERRY LUXTON:      Confidentiality?
6                  CHAIRPERSON LANNING:      Exactly.
7                  MS. PERRY LUXTON:      Okay.
8                  CHAIRPERSON      LANNING:    And we don't talk 9  about allegations in the public forum.          May I ask --
10                  MR. DELCORE:      But, Phil,      Little Harbor g                                                              11  does get allegationc.
s 12                  DR. TRAVERS:      You're next.
13                  MR. DELCORE:      I  know.      I    mean  I'm 14 .
personally aware that they do get them.
15                  DR. TRAVERS:      All right.      So --
16                  MR. DELCORE:      Because I've given them to 17  them. So  don't say that    they only go      to NU and    you l                                                            18  guys.
19                  MR. McKEE:    Yes. But the process calls f                                                            20  for them to, you know, transfer those, you know, to the
              $                                                              21  Employee Concerns Program or to the NRC.
I-                                                          22                  MS. PERRY LUXTON:      All right.      May I ask l                                                            23  you    another  question      about    allegations?          The 24  allegations that    you have    received, how many        of them O                  _
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT      (800) 262-4102
 
7 92 M kRY                                98 1        have      been    harassment,                        intimidation, retaliation                              and 2        discrimination issues? Does anyone know?                                                                                  '
3                                CHAIRPERSON                        LANNING:                For    '97,  about a 4        third.
5                                MS. PERRY                        LUXTON:            A third of          the how 6        many approximate, did you say?
7                                CHAIRPERSON LANNING:                                    60, I think it is.
8        Well, there were a little over 60.
9                                MS. PERRY LUXTON:                                  60.        Se a third of 60 10        are HIRD.
!R                11                                CHAIRPERSON                        LANNING:                    They    involved 12        allegations of HIRD.
13                                MS. PERRY LUXTON:                                  Okay.
14                                CHAIRPERSON                          LANNING:                      Of    alleged 15        harassment, intimidation or chilling effect.
16                              MS. PERRY                        LUXTON:              Right.        Okay.            All 17        right.      I'd like          to ask Little Harbor something.                                              I'd 18        like      to speak        a minute                      about structured                  interviews.
: s.            19        Your process        of assessing                          what the safety                  culture is f            20        coming      up ,  you know,                    your            next      round of        structure
    $            21        interviews.        I was concerned -- and I'm addressing this l            22        to John      Beck.        I    was concerned with                                  a memo    that was l            23        sent to      managers in                NU, Briefing Sheet                            for Millstone 24        Leadership,          Little              Harbor                        Consultants        Interviews, O                                                  POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
93 MEETIN      R            fiI            TO!    UNITS 1    February 1998.              It says " Initiating action" and then it 2    talks about the next                    set of structured interviews will 3    be conducted by Little Harbor on February 2 through the 4    20th and it talks about the issues.
5                                What upset                  me the most about                this -- I 6    don't mind that you're informing                                            people, that managers 7    inform their employees                        that structured interviews will 8    be  starting.              But  what did bother me                              about it was at 9    the bottom cf the page,                            there's a paragraph that                    said 10    ""This            interview          process                      compares        the  Millstone g 11    environment              with key          attributes of                      a, quote,    ' ideal u
12    safety-conscious work                      environment.'                      It is    a critical 13    component of Little                  Harbor Consultants'                            understanding 14    of our employees' confidence                                      level" -- of course, this 15    is  NU talking to their                          people now.                    "It's a critical 16    component              of  Little          Harbor's                      understanding    of  our 17    employees' confidence level to                                          raise a safety    concern 18    without fear of retaliation.                                        NRC Chairman Shirley Ann 19    Jackson said,              quote, 'The Commission will                                not approve f 20    the  restart of              any      of the                    Millstone nuclear          plants
$ 21    until it is satisfied that employees feel free to raise i 22    any safety concern without the fear of retaliation.'"
g l 23                                I saw that as a message in a subtle                                way 24    for managers              to say        to their                        workers, "We're    at the POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT                    (800) 262-4102
 
94 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS Q                                                                                    JANUARY 27, 1998 1                  home stretch,            guys. And Shirley Jackson says we can't 2                  make it,            we can't get there      without employees feeling 3                  free            to raise  safety concerns.      So,                in not                so many 4                    words, you know what you have to say."
5                                            Now, I don't work at Millstone, but I --
6                  you            know,  I'm  not  naive,    either.                    I          mean      these 7                    managers,            they say, " Hey". You know?                    Huh.              And then 8                  another            thing is their raises are being held up for 60 9                  days            after the  restart. So you --              so what's                  -- so 10                    that's            a disincentive    to saying  what you                              real feel, p                              11                    And            I feel this is like    an incentive to say what they u
12                    think that you should              say. You know what                            I'm saying, 13                    John?              I mean it  may be a    little thing, but                                it's --
14                    these            little  things  send  messages              to managers                    and 15                    managers interpret them in ways                and then they say that 16                    to employees.
17                                              MR. BECK:    I'll  try to respond to that.
)                              18                    Your            observation is a good one.      Let me tell you what 19                    our            intention was. Our  intention is to                        have as many 20                    people asked to be interviewed because                              of the time and
$                              21                    effort            it takes  to set    up the  number of                              people, to 1
22                      select them out            of the organization, 1:r                        send them the l                              23                    message.            And  this memo that    went to management,                              who 24                    ultimately have to release people for interviews and so O                                                                                POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
95 A  AR        98 1 forth, was intended to encourage them to do so, period, 2 and nothing more, nothing less.
3                  I'm  sensitive, however      -- and    you did 4 let us know when you saw      that that -- what your        point 5 of view was. And we were    responsive to that in making 6 certain that other announcements        that went to che site    l 7 as a whole did not mention that fact.
8                  Now,  it's    no    secret    that    Chairman 9 Jackson    has said that. It's no secret that that's the 10 kind of    accountability she's going to look for in that P  11 work force. But we  made certain      that, for    example, c!
12 things    that went out were    to the point,      that goes to 13 the entire site, at    least as far as we        were concerned 14 in    our  further  comments,      did  not      include  that 15 particular admonition.      And,    for example, one that was 16 issued January 19 that went to the site as a whole that 17 covered our interviews, one        that everybody on the site l  18 read, said nothing about that and --
19                  MS  PERRY    LUXTON:    So how    many people 20 got this?    Would you venture --
21                  MR. BECK:    The management,      the upper-1
=  22 level managers at the site.        But the people      as a whole 5
l  23 got  the to-the-point    announcement.        It    did not  say 24 that. I don't think it's a secret that        --
O                        POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
r 96 MEETING R    !I    TOli  UNITS 1                  MS. PERRY  LUXTON:    I know.      But that's 2 not the point.
3                  MR. BECY,1  And I understand the subtlety 4 --
5                  MS. PERRY LUXTON:        That's    isn't  the C point.
7                  MR. BECK:    --
and that's we      were sure 8 that  it  did not  get  mentioned in      any  broad spread 9 announcement of    the structured    interviews.      And  I go 10 further,    that suggestions    like the    one you    made are il very  helpful  to  us in  doing    our    job  in the    best 12 possible way we can.      We appreciate it.      And    are also 13 confident that you won't stop making those suggestions.
14                  MS, PERRY LUXTON:      Well, I -- you know, 15 that's what I'm here for. That's what we're all in the 16 public -- that's what we're here for.
17                  MR. BECK:  And we appreciate that, 18                  MS, PERRY LUXTON:      Yes. Okay. Well, I i  19 accept    that. It's a  little late, a      little too late.
20 But  -- because it's already sent out.        But  -. don't go
$  21 away.
!. 22                  Now,  another thing      I  have to    ask you 5
l  23 about is in regard to what Mr. Delcore said.            Would you 24 commit to    not being -- to    not letting NU know        when a O                        POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
  - . - _ = _ - - - . - - . . . - _ - - . _ -  _            - - . - . - -                  . _ _ _ - _.                _ - . - .. - ..                    - .. - -
97 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O                                                                                3^"o^av 27 1998 1  situation        arises,        letting      it              know  --
watching and 2    overseeing            how NU      responds          to an            incident and                just                l 3    seeing,    stepping back and seeing every step of the way                                                            l 4    how    they resolve              or  whatever they                  do, whatever                the                l 5    incident is?            Coua    /ou commit to that?                          Do you see his 6    point?    I agree with it.
.                                            7                              MR.      BECK:          I'm            not          sure        I  fully 8    understand            it. But let me respond to his question and 9    to your reiteration.
10                                  As you know, we've got an oversight plan g                                      11      and that      oversight plan              was developed in                              response to u
12      the original NRC order issued back in the fall of 1996, 13                                  MS. PERRY LUXTON:                    Right.
14                                  MR, BECK:      In fact, we had to submit                                it 15      and it    had to            be approved        by the              NRC          prior to        our 16      beginning        to implement it and do what the order asked 17      us to do.
l                                      18                                  That      oversight                    plan            defines        our                >
  !                                      19      parameters            for operating        in this              oversight function 20      And with respect to                issues that come up in                                the course O
  ,                                      21      of our    oversight              activities, it                  states very                clearly I                                      22      that if    something is happening that                                we think requires g
l                                      23      intervention on our part, we are obligated to do so and 24      to    tell the company and                the public that                            we have done O                                                                          POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT        (800) 262-4102
 
98 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS Q                                                          JANUARY 27, 1998 1 it. And we have religiously exercised that obligation.
2 And until    it's changed,      we'll have to    continue doing 3 that.
4 How, on the other hand, many, many, many 5
more times our activities are what I would consider              to 6 be benign    in the sense      that we're doing      exactly what 7 you  just  requested.        We're  watching what      happens.
8 We're    evaluating what happens.        We say nothing to the 9 company    about    what's  happening    unless  it  requires 10          intervention      and it    does lead    to  recommendation our
$                    11          part that we      share with    you and    with everyone    else, u
12          including company management.
13                              Until    that  plan in    changed --    if you 14          want    to suggest    that it    be changed    and the  NRC can 15          entertain    it, then      that's their    call to  make. But 16          we're obligated to address it as it's written today.
17                            MS. PERRY LUXTON:        Okay. Don't  leave, i                      18          I suggest that you change        the plan according to      those
.                      19          lines    that I just    said before.      And I  don't want to 20          repeat it.        Do  you  know  what    I  mean?      Are  you
!                      21          listening?
I                      22 g                                                    Don't say    anything, Mr. McKee?      Wait a
[                      23          minute.
24                            Do you    understand what I mean?        Do you O
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
99 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1
1 understand      what I mean?        Because give -- I'll give you 2 an  example.          The    QA  situation                                that          occurred    in 3 November,    Little Harbor          was reading                                  through material 4 from  the  QA        inspectors      and they                            actually            saw  the 5 profile of      exactly what Ms. Garde had                                        written down as 6 far as her      curve when the workers get                                        to such a point 7 where  they are        so  frustrated that                                  you know          they're 8 going to blow.          And she went to you -- you guys told me 9 this  yourself.            I'm    not              --
this                  isn't  inside 10 information, p  11                        You  realized when                          you read                  this thing u
12 that the QA inspectors were going to blow.                                                  And so that 13 you went  to NU and          said, "You                    have got a                      problem on 14 your hands here.          You've got to do this.                                          You've got to 15 do that", which          they did.        Which                      they did.                  Which NU 16 did.
17                        Now, why shouldn't                            that QA have                  blown?
l  18 Because it's between the            management and those workers.
19 If they're      not handling the whole thing right, then we f  20 should see what they're            not doing right and                                        help them
$  21 change. But not          enable them like                                you've been doing.
1
-  22 And I  know you people          are only                      doing it                    out of    the I
l  23 goodness of        your heart    for            the workers                              maybe. You 24 know?    But        I  don't see      that                  they're serving                        their O                            POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT        (800) 262-4102 l
 
100 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
(])                                                                                                                                JANUARY 27, 1998 1                        proper function                                    that the NRC would really like them to 2                        do.
3                                                                        of course, you people --                                                          they're really                                ,
4                      doing your work                                                                                                                                                                    l for you, as far as I'm concerned.                                                                                You        '
5                      haven't done anything.
6                                                                        But    be              that as                                      it    may,  I'd like                          to 7                      change                that part                        of          the order.                                                And I'm    making                        a 8                        request for                              the record                            for that,                                      Do you  understand 9                        that?                Okay.
10                                                                              Now,      Mr.                      Beck,                              Mr. Beck,      the                  second g                                            11                            question                  I                      have    for                        you                          is      on    the  structured u
12                            interviews, when                                    someone is in the -- say I want to ',
(J~g 13                            in              a structured interview --                                                                      or you're going                      to do .
14                            random sampling.                                      Okay?
15                                                                              MR. BECK:                          Mm-hmm.
16                                                                              MS. PERRY                            LUXTON:                              And  I'm            in              the 17                            department,                              llow do I know -- do you send the secretary 18                            of                the  manager                      --
do                    you                          give          the  manager                        the
  .                                            19                            information and                                    then you tend to the secretary and the 20                            secretary                  gives it to me?                                                      Because I got an allegation
  $                                            21                            from somebody --
l                                            22                                                                              A VOICE:                      Speak louder.
l                                            23                                                                              MS. PEPRY                          LUXTON:                                --    or someono                          who 24                            upset during                                      -- in      the plant,                                                  that this      person felt O                                                                                                                              POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT                                (800) 262-4102
      . . . , . . .            - - , , . , . , , , .                . . . _ . , - . - - - , ,            ~..-_w.,..,,..,,..,            . , , , , , , , , . , , . , . - , - , - , , , . - - , . _ .                  ,-...--_---,,,.,,.,,.,.n--.,      .,--e-
 
l 101 MEETIN    R      I  STOli    UNITS 1  that because the manager's secretary was involved                                              with 2  passing              out      things    or  whatever,      that              this        person 3  thought that they'd                      be able to ID who              actually talked 4  in the structured interviews.                          And then when the actual 5  dialogue                of the      interviews were published, then the                              ,
6  person even had more reason to believe that that person 7  would able to be targeted as the one who said that.
8                                    A VOICE:    Absolutely.
9                                    MS. PERRY LUXTON:          So        is there              a way 10  that you                  can make sure that it's anonymous, that don't g                        11  get those managers'                      secretaries involved or                          anything?
U 12  Go    directly from NU to                      the random people?                          Get the 13  gist?
i 14                                    MR. BECK:        We're    sensitive                    to  that 15  criticism.
16                                    MS. PERRY LUXTON:          Okay.
17                                    MR. BECK:      Although, let                me        tell you l                        18  that        I don't know of a single incident or incidents in 19  our previous structured interviews                            -- and we have-made f                        20  it    clear                  to  people    that    we  --
if          there            is  any
  $                        21  indication that you've been coerced before or after the 1                        22  interviews, we                    want to hear      back from you                      because we l                        23  explained why                    we're doing them and          why it's important 24  that we get their                    unfettered views of what's happening O                                                                POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
102 A AR          98 1                    at that site    today.      And we didn*t      get any          feedback 2                      that said anybody had been intimidated, harassed before 3                      or after the interviews.
4                                        Now,  this    --
and    we  did          use          for 5                      coordination purposes, because we          were new at the site 6                      --
we barely knew where the Men and Ladies Rooms were.
7                      And  as  far as  getting    around    the organization,                    we 8                      needed    some help from somebody      who understood it.                      We 9                      don't need that help      any longer.      And this      time we're 1
l              10                      doing it all from within our office.          We've only sought
$g            11                      cooperation by    management to    give us      interview rooms 12                      scattered around the plant where we can do them.                      We do 13                      all  the  contacting    and  we contact      the    individuals 14                      directly. Management    does know      that the      process is 15                      going on    because when    people leave their        normal work
:              16                      stations,    they    have  to  have    permission        of        their 17                      supervisor to do so.      So it's no secret that people are
,            18                      being interviewed.
        ,    19                                        MS. PERRY LUXTON:        Okay, 20                                        MR. BECK:    So  we also    are confident,
        $      21                      given our    experience    before, that      nobody is          getting
        $'    22                      undue pressure. And certainly, there's nobody                present l    23                      during the interview.        They're one-on-one, just us and 24                      the individual employee.
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
103 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1                  MS. PERRY LUXTON:        Okay. I don't think 2 the  person  was    involved    so much  with    coercion    or 3 concern about that but more anonymity.          He was -- he or 4 she was concerned about anonymir.y.
l 5                  How, a    question I have.      You mentioned 6 problem areas.      You were going to go      in and deal with    l 7 the problem areas.      Have the    problem areas increased?
8 Have  any  problem    areas  increased    since    you    first 9 identified problems      areas    months  ago  or  have    they 10 diminished as    in some problem    areas have been      -- are R    11 resolved and    there's no    longer problem areas      or have E'
12 there been more problem areas added?
13                  MR. BECK:    USat  we did, we passed along 14 what we consider      to be  problem areas as      a result    of 15 that first set of interviews.        The company had a number 16 of  others,    in    fact,  probably  more    than    we  did 17 originally. So a list started with some -- between 30 l  -18 and 40 areas that needed attention.
-g
!    19                  The company's process in        resolving that 20 was  to  identify    an action    plan  that  needed to      be
$    21 implemented to deal with whatever the          particular issue 0    22 might    be. And they did    that. And they've been going l-  23 through the process of exercising those action plans to 24 resolve whatever the issues were.
O'                          POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT      (800) 262-4102
 
MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
  ]                                                                        JA! NARY 27, 1998 1                                                  We're  watching    them do that.                      We're 2                  keeping                    track of  what  they're doing    to resolve                  the 3                  problem areas.                    And there are fewer of them today in a 4                    so-called open condition than they started with.                                      There 5                  have been a                    few pop  up along    the way  over the                  last 6                    couple of months.                    Lut the net number    is less than it 7                  was in the beginning.
8                                                    MS. PERRY LUXTON:      Okay. So that's the 9                    --
10                                                    MR. BECK:    It's down in    the teens now, 11                    as I best recall.
12                                                    MS, PERRY LUXTON:      The teens of problem 13                    areas?
14                                                    MR. BECK:    A few areas    that they think 15                    need special attention, yes.
16                                                    MS. PERRY    LUXTON:    You  mean                in  the 17                    teens?                There's problem areas in the teens?
18                                                    MR. BECK:    Yes. But  they                started
  !            19                    between 30 and 40.
20                                                    MS. PERRY LUXTON:    Okay.
  $            21                                                    MR. BECK:    So now it's down to 13, 12.
I            22                                                    MS, PERRY LUXTON:    Okay.
l            23                                                    MR. BECK:    I don't know.
24                                                    MR. McKEE:    I  think that's one of their O                                                                    POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102
 
105 MEETING R            I        TO!1      UNITS 1 indicators.            And it's 10 is the number, I think.
2                            MS. PERRY LUXTON:                  Okay.          So it's going 3 --
okay.            All    right.        Nou,        I don't          remember being 4 simultaneously              revolved        -- revolved?                  Simultaneously 5 informed of            this maintenance problem that                            occurred in l
6 December, January.                  Or I haven't heard anything more on 7 this QA thing.              Now, how come everybody knows, like the 8 NRC    and NU and            you, but we            in the            public don't know 9 about this?            Why haven't you informed us on this?
10                            MR.      BECK:      We talked                about            it today, p    11 And perhaps Ms. Garde --
U 12                            MS. GARDE:        We        didn't intervene, as the 13 word that you used, in the                      maintenance.                I mean if you 14 were scripting our involvement in the maintenance issue 15 we  talked about,                  it would    be exactly                what you            have 16 described; as we attended                    all the meetings, we watched 17 it evolve and we reported on its outcome, l    18                            In        the  context            of        the          other      two.
19 incidents that Don mentioned, the manpower incident and 20 the QC inspectors, in those two cases -- well, first --
  $    21 let's take them one by one.                      First of all, the manpower i    22 issue.              And, Don, I want          to correct a few things that l    23 you said in terms of your factual presentation.
24                            I was at the          ERB meeting at which those POST REPORTING SERVICE                                                i HAMDEN, CT        (800) 262-4102
 
106 MBETI!JG RE: MILLSTONE UNITS Q                                                JANUARY 27, 1998 1  terminations were --
2                                      MS,  PERRY LUXTONt    Explain what the ERB 3  meeting is?
4                                      MS. GARDE:
l                                                          Executive Review Board.
5                                      MS. PERRY LUXTON:    Okay.
6                                      MS. GARDE:    It's  the Board that was set 7  up  in  order                    to  provide  a  check  and    balance  to 8  disciplinary                      actions to ensure they're not potentially 9  retaliatory.
10                                      MS. PERRY LUXTON:    Okay.
Q  11                                      MS, GARDE:    The information presented at t t' 12  that    meeting was that those women were not going to be 13  fired. They                    were going    to be transferred.      And  the 14  information                      presented  at the    Executive    Review Board 15  meeting gave no indication whatsoever that they've been 16  involved in protected                      activity. So,    therefore, there 17  were no red flags raised at that meeting at all.
18                                      MS. PERRi' LUXTON:    Right. But so there-
  !  "i  - so, therefore, it didn't work.
20                                      MR. DELCORE:    It didn't work.
  $  21                                      MS, PERRY    LUXTON:    And  how  come  Ms.
I g
22  Pastis says it's doing such a wonderful job?
l  23                                      MS, GARDE:    Wait, wait. It did not work 24    in that case.                      That's a very good example        of where it O    -
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 I
 
107
                  ,                                MEETIN      R          MIRSTOli      UNITS 1            didn't work.            And that -- the fact that it did not work 2            in that case revealed a lot of holes in how information 3            came to          the Executive          Review Board and                problems with 4            that process which are getting                            and I think have pretty 5            much gotten fixed.                  All right?
6                                      When Don called me over the weekend with 7            that information                because the              women had called            him, I 8            didn't think that                he was            calling me to        just tell        me 9            about          it. I believed,                as we    had discussed,            he was i            10            calling me to make sure something got done about it.
4
  $          11                                      Our      charter            requires that            they  go to 12            ECP,            That's    another thing                  that    we identified            as a 13            result of          the manpower              incident; that is,                  that those 14            contractors weren't told about ECP.                              They had to          learn 15            about the ECP            from us and/or Don.                    Don could have sent 16            them          directly to        t.he company.              He  didn*t.            I don't 17            think          it's necessarily fair for                    you to hand them over 18            to us          and  then criticize                  us because    we do          anything I
  .          19            about that.              I don't        think that's really                      fair. All f          20            right?          I'll take        fair criticism.                But that          one's not I          21            fair.
I          22                                      And      in this            case, we're        talking about g
[          23            two            single    mothers,          three          weeks    before          Christmas 24            potentially being out of a job.                              And when it was clear O                                                    POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800)-262-4102
 
108 MEETIN    R    !IL STOli    UNITS 1 to me,    because I    had been      at    that Executive    Review 2 Board    meeting,    that    the    information    the  Executive 3 Review Board    got was wrong, I        passed that information 4 on to    the company    and said,      "Little Harbor    needs to 5 know why this happened."          The company immediately acted 6 on    thati that is, they put the people back on payroll.
7 No question    that between putting them          back on payroll 8 and    today, it's taken      far too      long to  try to  get a 9 resolution of those issues.          No dispute.
10                    But    you    don't      see  Little    Harbor f!! 11 protecting the      company from that, those          facts. Those n 12 facts are out in the public, shared with you, delivered V
13 in our message and considered in our evaluations.
14                    Likewise    with    the QA/QC    issues. How 15 that has been    missed and -- how that was missed by the 16 company    and how it's now been        handled is definitely a 17 part    of our  whole overview        process and    overview and 18 analysis that left the        company in red on the        issue of 5  19 how they're handling or avoiding or          dealing with HIRD 20 issues.
$  21                    I don't say -- think that          Little Harbor i  22 could    stand up here and        commit to you      we're going to l  23 let events    blow, as you described, if          we observe them 24 getting    ready to    blow.      I  don't    think that    that's O                        POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, Cy (800) 262-4102
 
109
()                                                                                                            A AR                  98 1                      responsible oversight.
2                                                    That                doesn't        mean we're                                laying                out a 3                      path by                which we're saying, "Here.                                            Go this way.                                  You 4                      do this.                  We won't say                anything about it.                                        The              public 5                      won't                know about          it.            It will              all get                          covered up."
6                      That's not happening.                                What is -- what we're observing, 7                      whether or not we feel it's necessary to                                                                    intervene, is 8                      being incorporated and reported to you and it's being a 9                      part            of        the analysis                  that we're                        making,                            And the 10                      company is being held accountable.
p                                    11                                                    If we                were saying,                          "Do this                    and we'll 0
12                      keep our mouth shut about that incident", you're right; 13                      we should be fired.                                We're not doing that.
14                                                    MS.              PERRY LUXTON:                            I'm not                  saying you 15                      should be fired.
16                                                    MS. GARDE:                      No. I understand that.                                                    But 17                      I want to --
l                                    18                                                    MS, PERRY                      LUXTON:                      I agree                  with that.
19                      But, number one, I don' t think we' re -- on the TV show, 20                      we're                getting    informed.                      We're                not            getting written
  $                                    21                      information.                  I have                had no written                              information from I-
  .                                    22                      Little Harbor --
5 l                                    23                                                    MS. GARDE:                      Since the QA/QC letter.
                                      -24                                                    MS. PERRY                      LUXTON:                      -- since the                            QA --
O                                                                                            POST REPORTING SERVICE            _
HAMDEN, CT                      (800) 262-4102 e.,-w--                      -.-w,.      , , . , , -                        ,4,,7  . --      __.__._._....m.-      --y.        -------.-.,.,----w-                -
                                                                                                                                                                            -m-  -                p--m---------.e-m -
 
I 110
(])                                                  Ali AR            98 1        one letter.          Nothing about the records.
2                                MS. GARDE:        Well,  I  don't think            that 3        after we          do the  initial letter saying            within the        72 4        hours we have          to tell you we had such 3 meeting, we're 5        not  -- we -- our          protocol doesn't say            we continue to 6        send you written updates about what's going on.                            After, 7          immediately        after  that, that      became      a    part of        our        ;
8        public  meetings.            There      maybe  haven't      been enough 9        public meetings.
10                                MS. PERRY LUXTON:        Yes.
$            11                                MS. GARDE:        There    maybe      hasn't        been 12        enough dialogue.          But I don't want to assume --
13                                MS. PERRY      LUXTON:    Then I      might have 14        been under a          misconception that we          were going to            get 15        written documentation --
16                                MS. GARDE:        No.
17                                MS. PERRY LUXTON:            --
when        things 18        happened.
.            19                                MS. GARDE:        The written documentation is 20        when we do something that's -- when we tell the company o
.            21        something          that we don't        tell them in      public, we send I
=            22        you a letter within 72 -- five working days?
I
[            23                                MS. PERRY LUXTON:        Okay.
24                                MS. GARDE:        Within three working deys of O                                              POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 267-4102
 
111 MEETI!i              R    f4IL STOli          UNITS                          '
1                when we do that.                                            And we have followed that?
2                                                                  MS. PERRY LUXTON:                          Okay.      Well, I think 3                  --
4                                                                  MR          DELCORE:              And, Billie,          in response 5                  to your comment about those girls --
6                                                                  MS. GARDE:                  Women.
7                                                                  MR. DELCORE:                      Women.        I notified you --
8                  I        notified you -- thank you.                                                    I notified you expecting 9                you to send them to ECP.
10                                                                  MS. GARDE:                  I did, g            11                                                                  MR. DELC~tRE:                      I    did not expect            you to 12                  notify the                            company to                    get on it.                  Because    Northeast 13                Utilities has                                    been known                  to mitigate issues                  and make 14                  them              a lot                  softer                  than they            are.      And    that's      the 15                problem.
16                                                                  :4S. GARDE:                  Okay.        But, Don, I notified 17                  the head of the ERB --
18                                                                  MR          DELCORE:              I understand --
l
        .            19                                                                  MS.            GARDE:              --    because        that    was  a 20                  safety-conscious work environment issue and the ERB had
        $            21                  been had by that process.
I            22                                                                  MR. DELCORE:                      I understand that.
l            23                                                                  MS. GARDE:                      And I notified            the head of 24                  that Board.
I POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT                    (800) 262-4102
 
2 1
11L
                                  !                              MEETING RE: MILLSTC HE UNITS
()                                                                  JANUARY 2/, 1990 1                                  MR. DELCORE:      I understand that.                  But we          ,
4 2                expected you to notify ECP and watch the company, 3                                  DR. TRAVERS:      Don --
4                                  MR. McKEE:    Yes, we need to move on.
5                                  MS, PERRY LUXTON:            Okay.          Thank you.
6                                  MR. BECK:              I              just    have    one 7                clarification. I'd like to address one issue                      that Mr.
8                Delcore raised    obout our    changing our standards.                    We 9                did not change the standard on whit.                        We simply changed 10                  for  clarification purposes        in response                  to criticisms g                        11                  that we got    from Susan Perry        Luxcon's show that                they D
12                  didn't understand      what our standards were.                      They hav?
13                  not changed at all,      World-class is still world-class.
14                  Our attributes are ideal attributes.
15                                    And  I'd like    to        also make          one  brief 16                  comment  about what    world-class means                    to us. World-17                  class is    nirvana.      It is    way        above          the  necessary 18                  regulatory standards      to-operate            a safe          nuclear power l
  .                          19                  plant. So it's an ideal state to strive for and to try 20                  to  get  to. Very  few  plants          meet          those kinds    of o
7
  .                          21                  standards. And, in  fact, I don't know any                    plant that l                          22                  would meet all of the ideal attributes that we have set g
l                          23                  out  as  a    basis    for  judging          where          the  Millstone 24                  environment is.
O                                                                POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT      (800) 262-4102
 
C-1 113 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 l%$
1l                                              But      our  standards    haven't      changed.
2                          We're not going to            change them. We're going        to still 3                          ..old them to    those standards.          And we're      going  to 4                          report    to you faithfully on where we think they are as 5                          they continue their efforts              to deserve a restart vote, f'
6                          it and when it occurs.
7                                              DR. TRAVERS:        Thank you.
8                                              CHAIRPERSON LANNING:        Susan, I found the 9                        numbers      for the      alleged harassment,        intimidation for
\
10                          1997. So I    thought I'd give you quick              information 67 p    11                          for '97,    24 of those were alleged HI.
9 12                                                OL c'y . Here's our    plan.      We're going to 13                          take one more question            and then we're going to          take a 14                            10 ninute    break.        We'll  come  back  and resume        this 15                            session    "' =y ?
16                                                Uow about the gentleman in the back?
17                                                MR. DURAN KAHN:        My name is Duran Kahn.
l    18                            I'm a  Waterford resident.          I'm  an operating engineer.
19                            I run  equipment and        cranes at    Millstone.        And  I've 20                            heard  a ) ,t about intimidation and stuff like that.
f                                                                                                          I o
    . 21                            have to comment on it.
3 g    22                                                I recently      had an experience        at Unit 2 5
l    23                            whereby in    my estimation the load          director portion of 24                            the  lifting and 1.andling was inadequate.                Okay?  And I O                                                        POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT      (800) 262-4102
 
114 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1  actually refused      to work with somebody,          refused to do 2  the job.
3                    Now,    I'm    a    contractor. And  Unit 2, 4  rather than threaten          me or try to      intimidate me, they 5  got us all-together        and we upgraded that program.            We 6  actually    upgraded    the    procedures    to  meet  what- we 7  thought    were    the  proper      standards    because in    that 8 particular case we were going to put a              man in a basket l
l'                      9 with    the crane.      And somebody-set down a load director 10  that, to me, was      not qualified.        They appreciated      the f[                11  help in upgrading the program, d
12                      We're      not      easily    intimidated      by
                      '3I  management, anyway.          Scone, Webster      or anybody =else.__
14  Okay?    That's the      --
the crane    operators have      that i
15  reputation.
16                      At Unit 3,        I discovered something about-          ;
17  a    crane    that    I  wanted'      to  discuss    and  went    to-t l          18  Operations.      And Operations said to          me, "Well, Duran,          l 19  why don't you put it in a            CR?"  Now, you know, I don't 20  know -much      about your      technical stuff.      But  I said,        i o                                                                                              1
          ,            21  " Gee, a  CR?  You're sure        you want me to    write a CR?"        !
l
          -            22  I'm, you know, thinking it's a bad deal there.              He says 5
l            23  -- Operations says, "No.          Listen. The CR is -good.      It 24  helps us get the job done."
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
I 115
()                                            AN kR                  2        b8 1                              So,      you              know,          I've    been        going    to 2      Millstone        for      the    last                -- back        and    forth      between 3      layoffs about          ninr. years.                      I've    never experienced any 4      kind of      intimidation or coercion or                                anything else, to 5      be honest with you.              And I'm                    talking from the point of 6      view of a Waterford 2esident                                and a rate payer, besides 7      being a      contractor.            So,            you know,          that's the        truth 8      from my end        of it.        And I just had to -- after all the 9      criticism,        I had      to tell                  people noout            my experience 10      there.
i g  11                              CHAIRPERSON LANNING:                          Okay.
gg 12                              MR. KAHN:                  That's all I've got to say.
V 13                              CHAIRPERSON LANNING:                          Okay.        Thank you.
14                                                  (Applause)
<    15                              CHAIRPERSON                        LANNING:        Okay.          Let's 1
16      reconvene in 10 minutes.
17                                                    (RECESS) l  18                              DR.      TRAVERS:                    We're    going to reconvene 19        the session on questions, comments to -- for NRC on the 20        topic area        of our assessment of                            the Employee Concerns
  $  21        Program.        So that's            the topic area                    that we're        still b  22        involved in,        responding to questions                              and hearing        any l  23        comments.
24                              MR. McKEE:                        Okay. We'll begin.            Do we O                                        POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
l l
116 AN AR
(])                                                          2        8 1                    have more -- not to discourage people in thic area, but 2                    we do have other areas we're going to cover.                  But we're 3                    still  addressing    Employee Concerns,        Safety-Conscious 4                    Work Environment area.        And  it looks like          we have          a a
5                    person with a question that's already up.
6                                      MR. TOM McCORMACK:          The gentleman back 7                    here in the black would like to go, too.
8                                      MR. McKEE:      Okay.      Could we        have him, 9                    you  know, him first?      He seems eager and I don't think 10                    we've had him speak before.
  $      11                                      MR. TIM O'SULLIVAN:          My      name is  Tim 12                    O'Sullivan. I was probably, to my knowledge, the first 13                    whistleblower at      Millstone. This goes back          to 1986, 14                      '87. I remember    it  quite distinctly            because I  sat 15                    across from  the table from Jacque Durr, who                was then 16                      listening to our complaints with a group of people from 17                    both the Maryland office and from Region 1.                Excuse me.
l      18                                      I remember it      quite distinctly          because I. 19                      one  of the people    who was a    member of          the dais fall
,f      20                      asleep during the    conversation, which        gives you      some O-
  ,      21                      idea of how interested      the party who was investigating 1
    -  22                      our claims was.
I l      23                                      A few comments.        And I guess an apology 24                      is first in order because, very frankly, I think that I O
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT      (800) 262-4102
 
117 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()                                      JANUARY 27, 1998 1  thought for the longest time that the NRC were the only 2  people who give answers              to s,imple questions sound like 4
3  explosions in a      shingle factory.                However, I      think if 4  you will accept      a vote of one, I must                  add Mr. Beck to 5  that list.
6                      I'd      like    first      of    all to      address    a 7  comment    that Mr. Beck made about Nirvana.                      Now, let me 8  suggest to him that when a company does not insist upon 9  quality    and      distinction,              the      results      are    the 10  deterioration      of standards,          the debasement          of taste,
  @      11  shoddy workmanship,            cheap politics and the              turning of s
lowest common denominator.
{)    12 13 the profile of NU, but it appears That is      not only the to be the profile of the 14  NRC and somewhat of Mr. Beck.
15                      It's incomprehensible to me that                    we are 16  thinking in the      space of          a few      weeks to      start up      a 17  system    that 11    years        ago Don      Delcore, myself,            Gary l      18  Johnson    and John          Delcore      sat across        the table      from i      19  Jacque    Durr and      his genre        trying to explain          to them f      20  what  was  the problems            at    Millstone        and they    blast o
  .      21  Millstone    off as we          being the allegers,            as they once 1                                                        called whistleblowers, by a      22  called us.        We prefer to be I
l      23    the way.
24                      It's incomprehensible.                    It is  debasing
()                                POST REPORTING SERVICE l
l RAMDEN, CT          (800) 262-4102                                      1 l
 
l 118 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()                          JANUARY 27, 1998 1 the whole system to    even suggest that we are      thinking 2 of starting up a system that    has failed miserably over 3 the last 11 years    to just even keep their      house tidy, 4 not to mind rectify a severe and a debasing standard of 5 employee  treatment from    the standpoint    of harassment 6 and intimidation.
7                I would also suggest, and hopefully lend 8 some support to the attorney from Redding who suggested 9 that Connecticut is the number      one state in the    union 10 as far as we're concerned.      We will not allow the NRC,
  $    11 we  will not allow NU    to denigrate that      concept. You 9
12 have not the authority. You have long ago debased what 13 I consider to be your ability      to run a safe agency and 14 to  control and to    regulate an    out-of-control nuclear 15 system at NU.
16                That's  all I    have to  say. Thank you 17 very much.
I    18                          (Applause)
I
  . 19                MR. McCORMACK:    Are we all set?
f    20                A  caution  to  the  Nuclear    Regulatory 0
  . 21 Commission. Northeast --
1                                                Name?
  =    22                CHAIRPERSON LANNING:
E l    23                MR. McCORMACK:    Oh. Tom McCormack, West 24 Hartford. A  caution to    you. You  said you    received O                      POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
l 119 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()                                  JANUARY 27, 1998 1  some  information    from Northeast Utilities                          regarding 2  safety-conscious      work        environment              and          Employee 3  Concerns. My caution is that NU lies.
4                    I've    known NU      to tell          bold-faced lies 5  under    oath repeatedly    since at least                1986.          For the 6  purpose of law, a corporation          is an individual.                    This, 7  of course,    means that not      everyone at NU                tells lies, 8  but many do. And the most recent example was testimony 9  by  Mr. Morris himself      to    the        Department of              Public 10  Utility Control,    which the attorney for the prosecutal
@      11  -- I always    get this word      wrong -- the              prosecutorial U
(      12  division    said was    patently    false or            Mr. Morris            was 13  lying.
14                    Mr.      Blanche    behind            me    has        told    me 15  several    examples of    direct    NU lying            to the          public.
16  Other    engineers have told me          the same.            So I caution 17  you;  when  NU tells    you    something, do              so        through a
!      18  filter that it may well be a lie.
: l.      19                    Were you      -- this          lady here,              your name 20  please?
o
.      21                    MR. McKEE:      That's Helen Pastis.
I      22                    MR. McCORMACK:                Pastis.        Was your work g
l      23  associated with the 4001 inspection?
24                    MS. PASTIS:      Our evaluation used 4001 as O                              POST REPORTING SERVICE EAMDEN, CT      (800) 262-4102
 
120 MEETIN        MI    TN    UNITS 1 a guidance, yes.
2                                                        MR. McCORMACK:      Okay. Is that complete 3 at this point?                                          The evaluation?
4                                                        MS. PASTIS:        The  evaluation?      Our 5 presence                        on                  site    is  complete but    we're    right  now 6 evaluating the information and writing a report.
7                                                        MR. McCORMACK:        Okay. When do    you l      8 expect that evaluation to be done?
i      9                                                        MS. PASTIS:      The  report  to  be  out 10 shortly, next month.
  $    11                                                        MR. McCORMACK:        When    next  nionth?
12 Please.                            Because this                    is important    because Northeast 13 Utilities                                      is giving        a bunch    of dates    to our  public 14 utility                commission about the                                restart of    Millstone 3.
15 And it's very critical to the ratepayers because we pay 16 NU  about                                        25    million    dollars a    month  in  excessive 17  replacement power                                          costs while those plants        are out of l  18  service.                            This is a                very crucial issue to        Connecticut i
  . 19  ratepayers to know about                                            the schedule. When --    do we 20  have a date, rather than just next month?
O
  . 21                                                        MR. McKEE:    Next month meeting, February I  22 g
our goal                                          is to    have it    out by    mid-February, the l  23  14th.
24                                                        MR. McCORMACK:      Okay. Mid-February. So O                                                              POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT      (800) 262-4102
 
121 At kR
(])                                      2        8 1 that's about a month    late than what NU has        previously 2 told our  utility    commission      just  recently.      Okay.
3 Thank you.
4                  MR. McKEE:    I don't understand that, but 5 --
6                  MR. McCORMACK:        Yes. They told    us --
7 they told the utility commission January 20.            So we've 8 got -- we're about a month beyond that.
9                  MR. McKEE:    I    don't know what they told 10 --
$    11                  MR. McCORMACK:      Okay. All right. Now, c
12 I  have  a question.      Mr. Reardan,    who I  guess he's 13 Safety-Conscious    Work    Environment or      Safety Engineer 14 over at Millstone -- something like that.          Right?  Last 15 month he said that    people in the Safety-Conscious Work 16 Environment were pulled into a meeting somewhere around 17 the first  of December    and given      a list of    something 18  like 16 attributes that described        the safety-conscious I. 19 work environment. And  I think basically he said        that 20 all the people    there agreed      that maybe    two of  those O
,    21 attributes  had been    met.      What  is your  reaction to 1                                                Safety-Conscious Work
-    22  that?  If  you were    looking at 5
l    23  Environment, how can you say things are nice in Safety-24  Conscious  Work Environment        if  only  two  of  sixteen
  /                      POST REPORTING SERVICE RAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
122-MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998-1 standards have been met?
2                    MR. McKE2:        That  was a comment      by Mr, 3 Reardan.      We're    looking      at  information    and- other 4  information that      we received.        So, you know,      I can't 5  confirm    or deny    what      he said.      I mean    that's    his 6  comment. And  I -- I really don't          know the full basis 7  of that comment.
!                                                  8                    MR. McCORMACK:      Well,    do you  know or 9  does    Little Harbor know        if such    a meeting    ever took 10  place where Safety-Conscious            Work Environment    workers g                                          11  were  given a list of        16 attributes by      the company to 9-12  judge?    Could Little Harbor comment?          Or is it just --
:0-                                          13                    MS,      PERRY  LUXTON:              have I            some 14  information on that. That was a particular department 15  called-the Nuclear Safety Oversight Department that was 16  at  a training . session        by NU    at  the Ramada    Inn    in 17 - Norwich and they were        discussing the attributes of the ll                                        118  Safety-Conscious Work Environment.              And that's what he
  -li
[                                        19  said    at the last meeting        and that people      came to the 20  conclusion that only two          of them, they felt,      would be
  '$                                              21  met  or achieved.          I think that's    what he's referring l.-                                      22  to.
I g                                        23                    MR.      McCORMACK:      Yes. So I  mean what 24 -does that-mean to you?
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT        (800) 262-4102
 
123
()                                                                                  JANUAR              98 1                                                                      MR. McKEE:            We don't have that detail.
2                                                                      MS.      PERRY LUXTON:        It's one department, 3      Tom.
4                                                                      MR. McCORMACK:              Okay. So  you don't --
5      did you                                                look -- consider that information?                  It wasn't 6        considered?
7                                                                      DR. TRAVERS:              No. The  answer is we're 8        trying                                              to do  an independent              look for    ourselves with 9        reliance quite heavily on the efforts of Little Harbor.
10        One                                                department and              one meeting  in an afternoon    at a g  11          Ramada or wherever it was, you know, we don't know what 9
12          happened, really, except for what was stated.                                                              We think 13          we've got a                                                program that is fairly broad.                And we can 14          talk                                              about that,    if            you wish.      But it's  one  that 15            includes                                            inspections or              evaluations and    other things 16          and heavy reliance on the efforts of Little Harbor.
17                                                                      MR. McCORMACK:              Okay. So I guess maybe Ll  18            Susan                                            or I could get              some of this    information to you l '>          and                                            maybe Mr. Reardan could            talk to you    directly or 20            talk to                                            Little Harbor              directly about this    meeting at 21            the Ramada so                                            that's put on the record and                we know --
  !  22            we can confirm that it did happen and what Mr. Reardan I
l  23              is saying is either truthful or non-cruthful?
24                                                                        I have            a sentence    here that I    want to O                                                                            POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT              (800) 262-4102
                                                                        ,                            ~
 
124 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 l
1 read to you. I'll tell            you what it's from.                  It's from  !
2 DPUC Financial and Operations Review of the Connecticut 3 Light & Power.              It's a draft decision.                    It's December    ;
4 31,  '97. It makes this statement.                                                  ;
5                  "A significant delay                      in restart        solely 6 attributable      to          safety-conscious                work    environment 7 deficiencies      would              apparently            be        unprecedented.
8 Therefore, it    does not            appear likely that                this issue 9 will delay restart."
10                  Did I hear earlier                      that if the        safety-11  conscious work environment                  deficiencies were not              met, 12  that restart would be delayed or will NRC give approval O    13  to restart without this being cleared up?
14                  DR.          TRAVERS:          The      Commission --        and I 15 don't like-to    speak for them because                          they're going to 16  decide the situation.              But they've been quite                  clear, I 17  think, on- the matter              of judging the                acceptability of 18 -the  safety    culture,            call      it  safety-conscious            work I.. 19  environment, if you will,                you know, as one of                perhaps 20  the  two    biggest issues            associated            with    the current f'    21  causes for the shutdown of the Millstone units.
p
        .. 22                  MR.          McCORMACK:            Okay.          Well,    has any.
I J      23  plant in the country            ever been delayed restart because 1              24  of workers safety -- safety-conscious work environment?
O                                    POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
125 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()
JANUARY 27, 1998 1  Is that an accurate statement by the DPUC?                                                          !
2                            CHAIRPERSON LANNING:                      I don't know.                  I 3  can't comment on that.
4                            MR. McCORMACK:                    Okay.
5                            CHAIRPERSON                  LANNING:      I          don't      know 6  whether any        other plants have been                          delayed because of 7  that.
8                            MR. McCORMACK:                    So we don't know.              But I 9  can  -- you think it might be fair                              to me to go back to 10  our utility commission and say the gentleman at the NRC e          11  on  such-and-such                      a        date    said  that  it          perhaps      is C
    ~
12  unpcecedented but                      it          certainly could    delay            restart?
O        13  Would that be a fair statement?
14                            DR. TRAVERS:                  The Commission has said --
15  I'll just say it for them again.
16                            MR. McCORMACK:                    Okay.
17                            DR. TRAVERS:                    ". hat it could            -- it will j          18  be a factor in their restart decision.
19                            MR.            McCORMACK:            Okay.            So      I    can 20  straighten      out            our utility              commission            then    on this O
,              21  point. Thank you.
1
    ,          22                            I        have            a  question.          Previously,            I E
g          23  brought up      the issue                          of performance objectives.                  And 24  it's very hard to say                              there's improvement if you don't
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126
()                                          ATU R            8 1 have                a base line and      a starting place      and then, when 2 you      go to            grade,    you have    objective criteria    which 3 either are met or not met, thus a grade.
4                                A very direct question.      If next month's 5 meeting two individuals walk                      up to this microphone and 6 state                --
and      they  have a  signed    sworn  affidavit, 7 notarized                or whatever degree        possible, that they went 8 to Employee Concerns Program with a significant safety 9 issue and were told by individuals in the Employee 10 Concerns file                  not to raise the      issue because Employee l
lg    11 Concerns did not believe -- and I'm trying to quote the
! U 12 best                I can    --
did not    believe    that they  could  be 13 protected                from the      restart team.      Would  that change 14 your                assessment of the      Employee Concerns      Program and 15 the Safety-Conscious                    Work Environment?      And would ycu 16 do something about it?
17                                MR. McKEE:      That's  a    hypothetical l  18 question.                  I can't    respond to it.      I mean  that -- a 19  situation like                  that, we    would have    to  look ct  that 20  situation and assess it.
O 21                                MR. McCORMACK:      Okay. Well, hopefully, 1
  . 22  these two individual will come to you.                        A gentleman has 5
l  23  told me privately that this happened.                      And I just -- if 24  you want to                  -- if there's a      criminal investigation or O                                        POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
l l
127  ;
MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS                              l JANUARY 27, 1998
( }.
1              if you            have some mechanism and you want to bring me in                        l 2              and put me under oath, I will testify to this point and 3              then you can look                            --
4                                                MR. McKEE:            We  encourage that    -- have 5              you        encouraged that                        individual to  come-forward      with 6              that information.
7                                                MR      McCORMACK:        I certainly    will. I 8              certainly                will,          because      a -lot of  people    here    are 9              concerned                about          making      this  plant safe.      I'm-  not 10                concerned about making this plant safe because it's not g                      11                safe and it can't be safe under any conditions as shown 9                                                                                    -
                          -12                by Three Mile Island.
It was shown by    Brown's Ferry.
13                It      was shown_ by Enrico                        Ferme that  there is -no such 14                thing as a safe nuclear power plant.                              And I    don't know 15              'how        the        gentleman from                Little  Harbor    can make    the 16                statement that there is such a thing.
17                                                  Now, I don't know how many people die on-18                an      annual            basis            from    nuclear power    in  the  United l                      -19                States.                But I do know there's very good evidence from 20                world uranium hearings that --
  ^$                        21                                                  MR.          McKEE: JWe're  getting a little off I.                      22                track on this.
I-l                      23                                                  MR.          McCORMACK:    Well, a    statement was 24                made          about            safety.              It's  my  understanding      under O                                                                              POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
    .-~    ..  . -  -        --          -        . -          _ . _ _    _ -      . _ . . -    . - - .
128 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1    presently accepted radiation protection                    standards that 2    100 people die per year per plant solely from the radon 3    emitted during --
4                      DR. TRAVERS:      We've done this before,
,.        5                      MR. McCORMACK:        My --
5                      DR. TRAVERS:        Let's  stick to Millstone 7    tonight.
8                      MR, McCORMACK:        Well, that's Millstone.
.        9                      DR. TRAVERS:          We  have a lot          of people 10    who are interested in --
g    11                      MR  McCORMACK:        Don't  say it's going to V
12    be safe when it's inherently unsafe.
13                      DR. TRAVERS:      We really,            in fairness to 14    people, want to stick to Millstone.
15                                  (Applause) 16                      CHAIRPERSON LANNING:          Mr. Kennedy.
17                      MR. MIKE KENNEDY:          My        name    is  Mike l    18    Kennedy. I'm an    employee at Northeast              Utilities.            I-
,      19    work  there as    an operator      and I also            have part-time 2
20    collateral    duty    as  a  peer      representative            where        I
  $    21    interface    with    the  Employee        Concerns        Program    when 22    someone cares to take a concern that route.
23                      I'm    happy I have an opportunity tonight l
24    to  talk to  Mr. McKee      and Helen      Pastis, the          Special POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT      (800) 262-4102
 
      ._. ...  - . -          . _ _ .      ..            -    . _ - -    . _ - -      - -      .      _~ .. - . -
129 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()                                            JANUARY 27, 1998 1      Projects Office,            Last  spring I had                some involvement 2      with you with the Employee Concerns Comprehensive Plan.
3      We had  problem with          the linkage tables                and I        helped 4      work on those tables to try to make things clear.
5                            I want    to go    back a little                  further in 6      the past,        back when    Millstone 3          was up        and running.
7      And I think quite a few of us had a degree of --
8                            A VOICE:      Talk into the mike.
9                            MR. KENNEDY:    Ouite        a few of            us had a 10      degree of        arrogance.      I'll    L' q"ite honest                  about it, g        11      We thought we were doing a good job there.                              When people s
12      like  Paul        Blanche    came    along and            said      there    were 13      problems or Don Delcore,            it was a little hard                    to, you 14      know, accept that there may be some validity to some of 15      the complaints and issues that came up.
16                            And    as things      progressed, we                ended up 27      getting    on the Watch List.            We ended              up getting shut l        18      down. And even so,          about three months                after we were 19      shut  down,        Hub    Miller came      in      and        was      talking to 20      various    people.        And he  came up to              me and, you know,
    $        21      even at that stage            I was going,          "I can't        believe they 1
    ..        22      shut  us down.          We were  doing such a good job running.
E l        23      We went through            a 54-day refueling            outage.          We    were, 24      you know, well-trained.            We do our jobs well."
.                                                POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT      (800) 262-4102
 
130 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()                                              JANUARY 27, 1998 1                                    And it    took a while for    the reality of 2 being on the Watch                        List and just finding out      what the 3 problems in the organization                          really were and trying to 4 work to fix them.
5                                    The  arrogance    has been  beaten    out of 6 Millstone.                      I  believe that    from the very    top to  the 7 very bottom that if there was any technological conceit 8 embedded in the company, I think it's been dislodged.
9                                    The  last    couple  of  years  have  been 10 tough. We've been working                        60, 70-hour work    weeks at g  11 that  plant.                      And if  you ever have    another plant that
[    12 it's  in danger of getting                        on the Watch  List, I think O  13 one of the most effective things                          you could do is get a 14 busload of Millstone people to go to that plant and let 15 them  know what's                      going to    happen if  they don't    get 16 their own house in order.
17                                      I  don't think    we're ready    for restart 18 quite yet.                        I think    there are still    some issues    out I. 19 there.      I think those                    issues have been    elaborated at 20 various meetings.                        But I've had    the opportunicy as    a f  21 worker --                      I don't have      an agenda. I don't    feel I'm 1  22 particular a                      cheerleader for Northeast      Utilities.      I i
l  23  just want to come out and say what, you know, some good 24  things are, as well as some of the bad.
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
131 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1                    We've  had a    lot  of people    that    have 2  worked extremely hard since        we've made the Watch List.
3  We've  had three    separate  restart    orders,    which    is 4  unprecedented in      the industry.      One of    those restart 5  orders,  as  you're    aware, is    the  Employee    Concerns 6  restart order.
7                    Unless we can demonstrate a healthy work 8  environment where people are free to raise concerns, I 9  don't  think    the  Commission    is going  to  vote    on a 10  restart on    Millstone 3 because we're not going to meet g    11  that order. We're working hard on that issue now.
O!
12                    I  think that    your 4001    inspection has 13  shown that    ECP has come a      long way. In -nine months, 14  that went    from an    organization that was      having great 15  difficulty in effectively dealing with concerns to what 16  I call a robust and effective organization.
17                    I sent an E-mail out to Ed Morgan and to
-l-      18  the  staff  of ECP    saying    that  I personally    thought-19  they'd done a great job in developing that organization 20  in the last nine months.
    ? ''  21                    I  have a  high regard    for ECOP.      They 1
22    started  off slowly, as people        have said. _But I know ll_      23  people  on the    panel. They've    put in a    lot of work.
24  There's a lot    of dedication      and a lot    of, you    know, O                              POST REPORTING SE1i'CE HAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102 1
                                                                                  -_]
 
132
()                                          kR          98 1  people up there that feel deeply in what they're doing.
2                    I have    a great deal of          respect for the 1  people    in Little Harbor as        well. I    find that Little 4  Harbor is an excellent oversight organization.                    They --
5  they're professionals.        They know what          they're doing.
6  And  the  reports they've      come    out      with are,        in  my 7  opinion, very good.
8                    Right    now, our    biggest issue            is still 9  the  chilling effect,      rooting out,        you know,          the hot 10  spots  that are still in the organization.              Until we do g          11  that,  we're not going to be        ready for restart.            But I gs        12  think that's    cchievable in the next            couple of months.
(>)
13  We see    the number of    those hot      spots going down.              I 14  think that we can get a grasp on that issue and satisfy
            -15  the Commission when that time comes.
16                    I know for myself that in my normal day-17  to-day    job    we've    had  discussions        about      how    many l          18  allegations    are done; how      many people        go to        the NRC 19  with problems.
20                    As  a worker      -- and    I've seen          this in
  $          21  your  own interviews and      in Little Harbor's interviews 1
  -          22  in the    work force.      The general way we          deal with the 5
l          23  issues    is we  go  to  the    supervisor with          an      issue.
24  That's    over 90 --    I think it      was 92 the        last time I O
d                                  POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT      (800) 262-4102
 
            - -    ~ _ -    . . - . - - . -                      . -      -    . _        . .-
133 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUAPY 27, 1998 t( )
1    looked.      But I think that number may go higher.
2                                    In the course of, you know, being in the 3    Control Room,                  I've on a day come      up vith half a dozen 4    issues.        And these issues are normally dealt with in a 4
5    routine manner.                  Something    comes up, an        evolution, a 6    question is given                  about, "Well, do we        want to proceed
,          7    on    this?" or,              "Look. We're getting      overloaded with 8    testing      and work.                We need to scale        down on the work 9    load."      And these things                are dealt with routinely          and 10    effectively.
g      11                                    Where there's an issue        that needs to be i 5 es  12    identified            by a        CR or    there's    a question    about the
    >Q 13    operability                of    the system,    I found      that supervisors 14    encourage us to, you know, write the CR's.
15                                    I think    last year I    probably had maybe 16    55    CR's    written.                And  that's    not,    you  know,    an 17    unusually          high number.            We've  had quite      a    few CR's 18    written      to address problems in the past.                      It's -- that 19    process is working, f      20                                    Where we have ECP involvement I think in O
,  ,      21    the organization                  right now is in      some instances where 1
  -      22    there's a poor supervisor / employee                    relationship, where 5
l      23    there's, you                  know, poor    intent, but more        typically I 24    think    the ECP                  ,es are  dealing with      one department POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102 1
 
134 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()                                                JANUARY 27, 1998 1 having a problem arising in another department.
2                            Somebody            goes up for a promotion.      They 3 are reviewed by a different department for suitability.
4 Denied the      promotion.                    Somebody's had      a major problem 5 with a work      group in another                    section of the      company.
6 And  it's    difficult                    to  go  directly    through    your 7 supervisor and get resolution.
8                              In those cases, ECP seems to be              getting 9 quite a few of those cases.
I 10                              Finally, when we get            to the NRC and the
    $      11 allegations, I think are problem the NRC does have with 9
r~g -12 this  is      that                  you  are  vulnerable      to  statistical O
13 manipulation.                  People can        raise an unlimited number of 14 allegations to you                        and you judge    the criteria as      the 15 number    of    allegations                    rather  than    the  number    of 16  substantiated allegations.
17                              And in        that case    we've had, you      know, i      18 people that have done                        numerous allegations and only --
    ;      19  in  some cases,                      people    have had  no allegations;      you 20  know, they haven't been substantiated.
O
    .      21                                  I think your criteria probably          could be k-22  adjusted    and made                    a  better representation      of people 5
l      23  going to the NRC and having an allegation substantiated 24  and  using that                      as a  yardstick rather      than just    the O                                            POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT      (800) 262-4102
 
135
(])                                                                A1  kR          8 1  sheer number.
2                    And                                    I    thank    you  very  much  for  the 3  opportunity to talk.
4                    CHAIRPERSON LANNING:                                          Thank ycu, 5                    MR. McKEE:                                        Thank you.
6                                                                  (Applause) 7                    MR.                                    RON      McKEOWW:      My  name    is  Ron 8  McKeown,    I live                            in Niantic.              Just  two points. Just 9  like    everyone has mentionad to you that they talk to a 10  lot of people, I talk to a lot of people as well in the g    11  community. And I just wanted to pass along to you that d
12  from what    I see and from what I hear, there is a great 13  respect that the process that                                          we're in relative to NRC 14  and closure    and relative                                        to Little Harbor,    the great 15  perception of the people that                                            I speak to suggests that 16  the process is working.
17                    Millstone has been punished severely and l    18  continues to be punished.                                          And everyone that I speak to 19  suggests the same as what you hear tonight, that safety 20 .
should not be compromised at all.
21                    People                                      have -- the      reason this room is i    22
  =
5 not  filled with 2,000 or 5,000 people is because people l    23  believe the process is going through the process that's 24  supposed to be gone through and the process works.                                              And O
k>
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
136
(])                                        JAN AR            98 4
1      it          is an e:cample where the government is doing the job 2      it's supposed to be doing.
3                                So, contrary to all the complaining that 4'    you may            hear and  suggestions of      inappropriateness or 5      unprofessionalism, I'm here to say that there's a whole 6      lot of the            regular population that has              support of the 7      process            that  we're in    and    the  process that          you're 8      leading.
,        9                                Secondly,    I    would  suggest          that    the 10      public            may be  better served      if there's          more control
  $    11      over            meetings like  this;    that many      people left        and 9
12      continue to            leave these    meetings because they              do not 13      h6ve the opportunity to              verbalize what they would like 14      to say, or unless            it's very late at night              because the 15      meetings aren't structured tight enough.                        Limits aren't 16      put on individuals.
17                                And  since    it  is a  democracy        and all 18      elements are            allowed to give their      opinions, it would I. 19      seem to be the fair,            just and right thing to do                would 20      be to create            an environment so      that all citizens          are O
  ,    21      created equal            and given the same      opporcunity to speak l
  -    22      and to hear because there's no one sitting in this room E
l    23      that could remotely suggest                that there is no dialogue.
24      There's been plenty of dialogue.                  I --
O                                        POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102
 
      .. -- -        . _ -    - -    -    . . ~ - -        -    -    -  . - _ - - - -          -      . . . .
0 137 MEETING RE: IIILLSTONE UNITS
()                                            JANUARY 27, 1998 1                      DR. TRAVERS:            Let me just respond --
2                      MR. McKEOWN:            Yes.
3                      DR. TRAVERS:            -- quickly to                that.      And 4 I'd recpond      in this fashion.                The process              that we're 5 using tonight      --
6                      MR. McKEOWN:            Yes.
7                      DR. TRAVERS:            -- has been                one that has 8 evolved    and    one that            has  been,    for            good,  bad      or 9 different, established based                  on direct input                from the 10 people who attend the meetings.
  $            11                      MR. McKEOWN:            Right.
U fg        12                      DR. TRAVERS:            Several different examples V
13 of that I'll give you just off the top of my head.                                      At 14 one point, we were asking peoplo to sign up so                                that we 15 could in    some sort                of fair  system regulate                and give 16 people    fairly an        opportunity            to participate.                  At  a 17 meeting    much        less          attended      than      this          one,      the i            18 overwhelming majority of people                    spoke up and said they
  .I          19 didn't want that.          So we changed.
f            20                      Several          other  things that                we've done, O
  ,            21 including taking          questions          after each                section,    were 1
  -            22 directly    related        to comments            that  we            got from      the          1 5                                                                                                                    i l            23 people attending the meetings.
24                      So I          agree that you can construct these
,                                          POST REPORTING SERVICE                                                      )
t HAMDEN, CT            (800) 262-4102                                          1 1
 
138
()                                  JA    R          2      8 1 kinds of meetings differently                      than the way we're doing 2 them. But we've          attempted to be as responsive                  to the 3 people who have been coming out and sitting in on these 4 meetings, you          know, month              after month as      we possibly L could.
6                        If that's not              an acceptable -- if      this 7 is not viewed as            a fair way to conduct the meetings --
8 and that's what we're here for, by the                        way, is a fair, 9 broad opportunity for as many                      people who want to      give 10 us comments      or ask us questions                  to do.      We  are still g  11 interested in those views and we're still interested in e
eg 12 carrying      out the kind      of meeting that                people in this O
13 area who are interested              in Millstone and interested in 14 getting information and giving us information war.t.
15                        MR. McKEOWN:            My  only suggestion would 4
16 be that      -- tonight some            discussions -- and            they were 17 good discussions            and they were positive discussions at l  18 times.        My  only suggestion                  is that  it's not      in the 19 cumulative best          interest of the public                  should one-on-20 one discussion go for            30, 35 minutes.                  I'm suggesting
  $  21 that it      disccurages the            vast majority of            people from
  . 22 attending        meetings and        that          all people      are  created I
l  23 equr.1  and no        one is    better, even              if they have more 74 facts, than other people.                      And tonight you had a pretty POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT              (800) 262-4102
 
139 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1 good  attendance and I was pleased to see people of all 2 different opinions show up.      I'm only suggesting that a 3 little bit -- don't      give up on the attempt          to satisfy 4 the greater good. That's all. And thanks again.
5                  DR. TRAVERS:    Thank you.
6                  CHAIRPERSON LANNING:      Yes.      Please.
7                  MR. RAYMOND SHADIS:        Thank you.        Are we 8 back on the allegations process now?
9                  CHAIRPERSON LANNING:      Yes, sir.
10                  MR. SHADIS:    Thank    you.        My name    is 11 Raymond Shadis, S-h-a-d-i-s.      I am from Edgeton, Maine,
~
12 here  visiting friends. And  I would like        to offer to O  13 you in terms of dealing      with allegations, particularly 14 those that are brought to NRC, that for the sake of the 15 dialectic about    safety, there should      be comparison to 16 the experience at other nuclear power stations.
17                  I am    a member of an organization called
{    18 Friends    of  the  Coast,    which  was    involved        in    the 19 shutdown of Maine Yankee atomic power station, and also 20 a  representative    of  the  New  England        Coalition    on f    21 Nuclear Pollution.
22                  In addition    to that, I        serva on    Maine g    23 Yankee's    Advisory  Decommissioning      Panel.          And    our 24 experience has been that      allegations brought to NRC ar POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102
 
140 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()                                                            JANUARY 27, 1998 1  not dealt with in an expeditious and timely manner.
2                                                    The gentleman here      from the  consulting 3  firm, Little Harbor, said that there is a contribution, 4  I    believe -- and I'm paraphrasing here.                                          But he said 5  there's a                                    contribution to    confidence that    comes with 6  timeliness and response.                                      An employee brings forward a 7  safety allegation and days, weeks and months go by, 8                                                    I want to tell    you in our experience in 9  Maine that                                    we brought forward safety        allegations at a 10  full commission meeting at NRC Headquarters on February
  $  11  4 of last year and on November 11, I believe it was, of 9
12' this                              year, same year -- excuse me -- November 11, 1997 13  we got a letter from NRC saying that these allegations 14  were                                still      under  investigation      and  consideration.
15  However, some                                    of them might be      aside because      in the 16  meantime                                    the  plant  was  shut  down.      This was    not 17  addressing safety issues.
l  18                                                    With Millstone,    you  do have    a  record
  . 19  number                                    of allegations    laid  on  a  desk  for    NRC  to 20  consider.                                    One of  the questioners here asked        if these o
  . 21  were being                                    investigated    and the    response  from    thiu
  -  22  panel was that they were being evaluated.
E l  23                                                    Having  gone    through    the  allegations    I i
24  process, I want to let                                      everyone here know that there's j
O                                                        POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l
 
141 At AR                7          98 1                      one heck of a                difforence between an evaluation and                                          an 2                      investigation.
3                                                  The evaluation in a p.aliminary step.                                          I 4                      don't    know if              -- if    there in                      any -- anything            to it 5                      beyond the              notion of whether or                          not Allegations cares 6                      to handle that particular matter.
7                                                  The worker in the meantime who han filed 8                      that    does            get notice      that                  the      allegation han              been 9                      received,          is under        consideration, that                      his anonymit) 10                        will be maintained, p                                  11                                                    Dut then our experience is that there is v
12                        a long,      long dull void.                        A        '
if NRC wants          to set the 13                        etandard, which they should he doing ao a regulator for 14                        the    industry, then                I  would                    urge    you to        develop            a 15                        process    whereby real                interviews                      take place          with the 16                        people making                those allegations                          ao that they          can get 17                        their aide acrosa.
l                                18                                                    In our experience, our                          allegations wore 6
19                        parsed out, separated and destroyed based on semantics, l
f                                20                        It was a game              that was being played with                          the material f                                  21                        allegations that we brought forward to dispose of them, l                                22                        not to deal effectively with                                    the issues we were trying
[                                23                        to    raise,            11ad    there      been some                    dialogue,          we could 24                        possibly have constructively pacced beyond that step.
O                                                                                          POST REPORTING SERVICE IW4 DEN, CT (800) 262-4102 m                  _ ---- -                      _ _.                  _        , -. _ _ -        .. _    _ _ - . _ _.---- _ - _ _ _.            _ _ _ _ _ _            __    - _ _ - . . . .
 
142 MEETING RE: MILLSTODE UNITS
()                                                    JANUARY 27, 1998 l
1                                    In addition,                          I simply want              to -- going 2          back to the notion              of comparison to other                                    plants, the 3          Maine Yankee            atomic power                        station was in                .994 taidely 4          advertised as a            world-class plant.                                    In  1996, March of 5          1996, the company contracted a cultural assessment team 6          report to look at              the company culture.                                    And      what they 7          found with their employees who were then under                                                      a siege 8          mentality, very much afraid of the closing of the plant 9          because        of its      material degradation, they                                      found that 10          their employees were making                                    judgments as to whether or Q        11          not    given issues            had ,afety                          significance.                And they 9
12          were      doing this on              their own intuitive                                sense, not by 13          any stricture er guideline.
14                                    And t'cr a          upshot                    of it      was that        safety 15          issues passed by because of the pressure of the concern 16          for their jobs.              And I just want to                                    offer to you that 17          that is also a form of intimidation.
18                                    As an          outside observer, I want                                    to just I        19          remark      that I        was    very,                    very            pleased      to      see            the 20          contractor crane operator come up and                                                speak to you and 21          also the        operator who                    did such an                        articulate job                  of I        22          expressing hio view, employee of Northeast Utilities.
g l        23                                    Our    experience in Maine was that it was 24          not until the very              final days of Maine Yankee                                          when it O                                                POST REPORTING SERVICE
#                                                          HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
  - - - -    e,---  , ~ - - - -    i.~  =  ,.                    - - ,          ,,              .r--,r,,  ,y,,                -  ---,--._,v-    - - - - -
 
143 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()                                                    JANUARY 27, 1998 1          looked like                    the jig was up that employees were alle ed 2          to come out in public and                      talk about their experiences 3          in                  the  plant    without    being    vetted  by  the    Public 4        Relations Department.
5                                          And  it would    behoove in    all of    these 6        meetings --                    and I    agree with I
the gentleman    here who 7          suggested that                    some    other forum    might be    necessary, 8        perhaps an extended series                        of t eetings because it does 9          take time to heer the people.
10                                          And  I    want  to  thank  you    for  your i
  $    11        attention.                    If you have any questions --
12                                          CHAIRPERSON LANNING:      Thank you.
13                                          DR. TRAVERS:    I'll just make one comment 14          --                                                                              '
15                                                    (Applause) 16                                          DR. TRAVERS:      -- on an    observation you 17        made, if I                    may. And  it has to    do with my    response, l    18          actually,                  that    indicated    evaluations.      And  when  I 19          responded that                    way, it was a carefully chosen word and f    20          it was                carefully chosen because when        we discussed our
  $    21          response                to    allegations    that    might,    for  example,
  !=
22          include HIRD issues, we don't talk about investigations I
l    23          in public.                    So when    I responded in    terms of    alleg--
24          evaluations,                    evaluations    might, for    example, include POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102
 
144 MEETIN    R        !I            TOli      U11ITS 1          any    investigations                that                might          be      appropriately 2          determined by the Commission.
3                                  MR. SilADIS:                I see.          Let me just say in 4          that      regard        that      it        is          the      intention                    of          the 5          organir.ation          I represent              to      be filing            a 2.206                    with 6          regard to the number              of outstanding allegations on the 7          Millstone docket.            I think the most recent                                report from 8          Allegations Office had some 85 outstanding allegations, 9          of  which something in excess                            of 50 were            worker -- of 10            worker origin.            And I think that the workers need to be
$                                11            heard.          And not only        do they                need to            be heard,                      but u
12            be* ore the plant starts, to me, just plain conservative 13            safety      mentality would            say            you better            look at                    what 14            these guys are talking about.
15                                      DR. TEAVERS:                  Yes. I want to respond to 16            that, as well.
17                                      MR. SHADIS:                  Certainly 18                                      DR. TRAVERS:                  I think            it's important.
l
.                                19            We agree          with you    that workers                  should,          in fact,                      be 20            heard and they should be heard in a timely fashion.                                                            So o
.                                21            I  would just          point    out the                distinccion between                                the I                                22 g                                                completion of an evaluation and us hearing from workers l                                23            and  the          be. ginning      of                such    an            evaluation                        or 24            investigation, whatever it happens to be.
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
145 MEETIN  R  !I    TOli  UNITS 1                We're in violent      agreement, I think, on 2 one point. And  that is  that workers      do need  to be 3 heard and, if there are issues that precede restart, we 4 want to hear them before restart. We don't put off in 5 the same time frames the obtaining of the information 6 that is forthcoming.
7                MR, SHADIS:    Thank you.
8                MR. HALLOWAY:      As part  of that,  Bill, 9 what does the NRC think about    --
10                DR. TRAVERS:    You better come up, g  11                MR  HALLOWAY:  You want me to come up?
U 12                DR. TRAVERS:    You better    because nobody 13 can hear you.
14                MR. HALLOWAY:      It's  just  kind of    a 15 follow-on to what Mr, Shadis was saying.
16                DR, TRAVERS:    Yes.
17                MR. HALLOWAY:      What is  the  NRC doing H  18 about  the process  of --  you talked      about expediting 0
!,l 19 these investigations    to bring    them to closure. Now, f  20 we've had instances    of some of    these going on    three,
$  21 four years. What are -- what is the NRC doing to make t=
22 sure    that  quicker    resolution      comes    to  these I
l  23 allegations?
24                DR. TRAVERS:    Well, I don't      -- I don't O                      POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102 i
 
1 14G MEETIN    R    !IL STO!    UNITS 1 think we've    talked about expediting        investigations or 2 evaluations. We've said --
3                  MR. HALLOWAY:      No. He did.      He asked --
4                  DR. TRAVERS:      What we have pointed to is 5 factual    information that        suggesta that      many of    them 6 aren't  done.    ? r,+/ a    true.      And  --
but    we  have 7 information.      And part      of the    Commission's decision-8 making process,    just for      your information --        I think 9 we've  talked about this a little bit in the past                - is 10 going to    incluo    any pending issues, such as HIRD, any 11 investigations or so        forth that may      be ongoing.        The 12 Commission is    getting briefed.        These are      not public 13 meetings because this        is a sensitive information          that 14 can,.in fact,    be -- in      fact, has to      be discussed        in 15 private.
16                  But the Commission has indicated that it 17 fully intends to get -- even if the issue isn't closed, 18 they  are  going    to be      considering      the  issue,      its 19 potential outcome and the          significance of the issue as f  20 it could af fect the organi::ation and restart.
O
  . 21                  MR. HALLOWAY:      So, in other      worda, what l  22 l
g      you're saying is there will be a status report given on l  23 each and every allegation at the time?
24                  DR. TRAVERS:      The    Commission        is, in POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT      (800) 262-4102
 
$'                                                                                                                                                                \
i 147 ;
()                                                                                                JAli AR                      98 l
1                  fact,              getting                  status                leports            in  closed    session on 2                  important issues of this sort.
3                                                              MR. HALLOWAY:                            Thank you.
;                          4                                                              MR. DELCORE:                              Can I follow    up on that, 5                  Bill?                I have a question about that.
6                                                              DR. TRAVERS:                            Stre. Go ahead.
7                                                              MR. DELCORE:                              If you look    at the issue 8                  of the                MOV situation and you                                          recognize that Northeast 9                  Utilities                      agrees that                          retaliation took              place, Little q
10                    Harbor                  oversaw                  it          and agreed                that  retaliation took
,Q                      11                    place                --
maybe              I'm          --
you      know,    maybe  I  don't
' u 12                    understand this whole thing.                                                          But how come enforcement 13                    action hasn't been taken?                                                    I mean it's --
14                                                                DR. TRAVERS:                            Let me --
15                                                                MR.              DELCORE:                      There      isn't  any 16                    investigation that                                        needs to be                  done. It's  all done.
17                    They've already admitted to the wrongdoing.
l                  18                                                                DR. TRAVERS:                            No, no, no, no. We have a 19                    responsibility to                                      independently assess these                        kinds of f                  20                    issues before we make                                            important judgments.                And that's O
      .                  21                    what we're about.
h
      =                  22                                                                MR. DELCORE:                            Are you saying that Little 5
l                  23                    Harbor                  and            NU          made                the          incorrect    judgment    on 24                    retaliation?
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT                          (800) 262-4102
 
148              i MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1                                    Dil. TRAVERS:              We're saying we're taking 2        an independent look at that situation.
3                                    CHAIRPERSON LAlmING:                                    Rosemary?                                      j 4                                    MS    ROSEMARY BASSILAKIS:                                              These are new 5        microphones.            You don't have to turn them on.
6                                    DR. TRAVERS:            Very nice.
7                                    CHAIRPERSON LANNING:                                      Yes.                Aren't they a        nice?
9                                    MS. BASSILAKIS:                    Good evening.                                Rosemary i                                    10            Bassilakis with the Citizens                          Awareness Network.                                      A few 11            things on my pad tonight.                    I guess I just want to start 12            off by    saying that I've learned                                      through the grapevine 4
13            that a lot        of Millstone i employees                                            learned about the 14            possible closure of Millstone 1 in the newspaper.                                                                  And 15              I believe that was                wrong.      I believe that                                            they should 16            have    heard that              from management.                                    And              I know    if my 17            company  was about to shut their doors, I would want to l                                  18            hear about it              from my    company.                      And                I think it            just 19            goes to  show that                there's still room                                        for improvement 20            with situations like that.
  $                                  21                                      As    far  as      the                Safety-Conscious                              Work I                                22            Environment          indicators,          as          Mr. Beck                              discussed          this
;g 1
l                                  23            evening,  I'm very                uncomfortable                              with                  changing    the 24            nomenclature            and the grading and what not.                                                      And I just O                                                                              POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT        (800) 262-4102
 
149 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()                                        JANUARY 27, 1998 1  want to leave      it at    that. I  understand that      you're 2  implying that      people    misunderstood.        And  I'm very 3  uncomfortable with that.
4                      The    whole  issue    about  Little    Harbor 5  Consultants --        and I  know Susan Perry      Luxton brought 6  this up, as far as        them being advisors and consultants 7  and  intervening.        I think the point that we can't lose 8  is that the      reason this    concerns us so      much is    that 9  what's going      to happen    when Little Harbor      goes away.
  !                10    This is the real issue.
g        11                        No,    we don't    want  to  see  situations 12    blown  out of      proportion.      And,    in fact,    we're glad 13    Little    Harbor's        there    to    intervene.        However, 14    situations will        blow  out of    proportion    when  Little 15    Harbor leaves      if Northeast Utilities        hasn't been able 16    to develop      the abilities    to    have a    safety-conscious 17    work environment, to recognize chilling issues and deal l-      18    with them in an effective and quick manner.              So this is 19    the issue.
20                        So what      I'd    like  to    bring    to  you
          $        21    gentlemen    is where      is it    written that    Little Harbor i
g        22    will have to stay on frr a designated period of time?
3 l        23                        MR. McKEE:    I'll answer the last -- your 24    last  portion first and I'd like to respond to a couple POST REPORTING GERVICE HAMDEN, CT      (800) 262-4102
 
150 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O                          3^"u^av 2'' 1998 1 of other areas.
2                Actually,    the order that -- on Employee 3 Concerns    and    Safety-Conscious      Work    Environment 4 specifies that  the NRC, until the      situation is deemed 5 to  be corrected,    that  the  third-party      organization 6 would stay in  place. And it's not      amplified in    the 7 cover  letter that that time    would be a    time for many 8 months that  would extend certainly      beyond the restart 9 of the initial unit.
10                As Helen mentioned in her summary of her
  $  11 findings -- and I    don't think you were --        you weren't U
12 here for that.
13                MS. BASSILAKIS:      No.
14                MR. McKEF.:    One  of the things      that we 15 identified during    our  evaluation, something        that  we 16 found  was the  development of      the long-term plans by 17 Northeast and how they're going to deal and maintain an 18 environment where they're going to        continue monitoring 8  19 and looking  for any degradations to        their program and f  20 addressing    that  and  maintaining      indicators.      And
  $  21 certainly part    of that  is their assessment      of Little 1
22 Harbor. But it's the NRC that will ultimately make the l  23 decision  on the  determination or the      availability of 24 determination  of    the  licensee    to  consider    --
to O                      POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102
 
_ _ . .- . - . - . .        . . - . . -          _ _ .                  _ ~ _ _ _ -              _ - _ - . - _                          . -      - - . _ - . - -                                - - - -
l 151 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()                                                                                      JANUARY 27, 1998 1                maintain          Little                      Harbor                    beyond          when              we                  think          it's 2                necessary.                            And that's                        going to              be          -- even                            in our 3                evaluation                  plan, we've                                mentioned a              time of                                  at least 4                  several months, six months                                                and possibly a process, you 5                know, following that.
6                                                            I'd  just                    like to            mention                            I          know the 7                  topic was -- brought                                  up earlier is the fact                                                              of Little 8                Harbor's            influence in                                  several of                    these events.                                    And 9                then there's -- Billie Garde                                                  mentioned that is one                                              of 10                  the      reasonc at least Little Harbor has -- and even the p                    11                  licensee has                          identified that                          they haven't made                                            it to U
q                  12                  the level they                              want to be in that                                safety-conscious or
            %)
13                dealing with problem areas.                                                  And their intervention and 14                need for          their influence in those situations                                                                                      is a cig 15                  factor.                    And              that              is        a    continuing,                                        you      know, 16                detenniaation .
17                                                            At  our meeting                        today when                                we            met and l                    18                discussed the status, a big                                                  factor, and I thought                                              was l
8                    19                an interesting                              factor, is that                        a lot of                            those events 20                and        incidents                        that      were                being monitored                                          by      Little l$                              21                Harbor        and no                        influence where                        there are                                  evidence of l                    22                dealing with                          these issues in a                            more comprehensive and l          l                    23                better        manner.                          And there's a                        number of                                places like 24                  that.      And I think that's part of the criteria, really,
()                                                                                    POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT                    (800) 262-4102
  - - - - -              -1 r--                --n,.        -
                                                                    .,.n. . _ , - , , , , , , -                    - . . _ -        ,-.  , , _        _.                . , , , , , , . _ , .                - , - --
 
152 i MEETIN    R: !I    STO!!E UNITS                                l 1 in the ensuing several      weeks and looking at the                  past, 2 of  the  fact  of whether    they  do  influence or                  have 3 recommendations to      further events    of the type                of tne  ;
l 4 MOV and  training issues      that we    saw, you      know, late 5 last summer or last fall.                                                      ;
6                  MS. BASSILAKIS:      One of    the things that 7 we have requested, both our organization and some other 8 organizations, is that there be allowed a dry run prior 9 to start-up where NU could demonstrate their ability to 10 maintain    a  safety-conscious work      environment without g  11 Little Harbor's intervention,        I just    want to put that s
12 out, 13                  I  looked    through    the  overheads                real 14 quickly  from  Little    Harbor's    meeting.        And            I  --
15 apparently, 75 percent of the workers who have used the 16 Employee Concerns Program at      this point are willing to 17 re-use it again,    which is a    big difference from                    just l  18 last month.
19                  And    so I  was wondering    if they                could 20 comment  briefly    on  why  workers    previously            weren't 3  21 willing to re-use    and why the change has      come forward 1  22 in such a short period of time?
l  23                  MR. McKEE:    I'll    let  Little              Harbor 24 answer that. But,    you know, I think they're              -- well, O                        POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) .1C2-4102
 
153 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1  go ahead.            I won't say it.
2                                MS.          GARDE:                        Rosemary,        I        think          that 3  probably the              main reason                      is that the              first batch                    of 4  those          statistics                was      based                  on    contact                    from    the 5  employees            whose            concerns                were closed            out              prior      to 6  September.            Or was it -- Prior to September.                                                  And    that 7  group          of Employee              Concerns                      files included                    a lot    of 8  files that had been                        open for a very, very                                  long period 9  of times that is, concerns that were there when the new 10  ECP effort started and had been closed over that period g                                11  of    time.          So you had people who werc dissatisfied with 12  the process if for                        no other reason than the                                        length of 13  time that it was taking to deal with those issues.                                                                  And 14  some of            those issues              had,                  frankly, just                sat on          the 15  shelf          for a      long          time.                    So    resolving              them          in  a 16  satisfactory manner was not real easy.
17                                The          newer            concerns,            people that                    were i                                18  looked at-in the                      newer concerns, are more --                                          are done
        .                              19  under the newer program.                                    It's basically about an                                83-f                                20  percent satisfaction rate.                                    And we see that the efforts
        $                                21  that ECP has made to be timely and to move these things I                                22  along          has    been            producing                    results.            It's                not    100 g
[                                23  percent.              But        my own          feeling                  is  as        I would              call 24  somebody who had a                        concern that was, you know,                                          a year O                                                                    POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT                      (800) 262-4102
 
i 154
({}                                                                      JA i AR ' 2                98 l
1                        and  a half old, you know, I wasn't surprised when they 2                        said not only "No",                but " Hell, no, I'm not                                going back 3                        there."
4                                                Interestingly                enough,                        though, some    of 5                        those  people        who said          they          wouldn't                      go back  there 6                        actually  have referred                people to                      there that          are now 7                        some concernees.                So this is an evolving iusue.
8                                                MS. BASSILAKIS:                    Well, I'm glad to                    hear 9                        that there's been improvement.                                It will be interesting 10                        to watch over the next couple of months --
lg                  11                                                MS. GARDE:          Right.                    It will be.
12                                                MS. BASSILAKIS:                      -- because                    they should 13                        be able to maintain the status                            then.                    But I think it's j                  14                        in everybody's best interest that there's                                              an effective
:                  15                        Employee Concerns Program.
;                  16                                                Mr.        Shadis from                Maine                  brought up    the
].
17                        issue  of comparison                from,      you              know,              the  different 18                        reactors  as far as                allegations go.                                I'm just curious
)I, 19                        what -- it looks like from the transparencies that were f          20                        handed  out earlier                today    that I                    guess at            Millstone
        $          21                        there's  probably somewhere                    around                      13 a      month, 15    a 1
22                        month?
'l                  23                                                DR. TRAVERS:              Five or six.
24                                                MS. BASSILAKIS:                      Five or six?                    Really?
O                                                                    POST REPORTING SERVICE RAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
i 155 JA! AR          98 1                  MR. McKEE:    Well, that's -- the 13 or 15 2 a month,  you're    probably    thinking    of  the      Employeo 3 Concerns  losues    that  go    to  the  Employee        Concerns 4 Program. That's    about that      number.      The number        of 5 allegations is the five or six.
6                  MS. BASSILAKIS:        That's    what      I    was 7 thinking. I was just wondering how it compares to the, 8 you know, national average.
9                  DR. TRAVERS:      It's the highest.
10                  MS. BASSILAKIS:      It's the highest.            Well p  11 --
and this may have    been mentioned earlier.              But as u
12 far as striving    for a steady trend indicator              and that 13 being a success, you      know, exemplifies success as long 14 as they're    not going up, they should        clearly be going 15 way down, if that's the case.        That's what I would call 6
16 a success story.
17                  Lastly, I'm just      a little bit          confused l  18 about  the issue of    condition reports.          It looks like 19 that  they're    striving    to    have    condition        reportu 20 evaluated within    about 30    days. And    they're getting
$  21 close to that number.      They're at about 75          percent of 8
22 them get evaluated within 30 days.          Right?
l  23                  DR. TRAVERS:      Yes.
24                  MS. BASSILAKIS:        Okay. They      want to O                      POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102
 
l 156 MEETIN      R    !I RSTO!E UNITS 1 achieve 95 percent.        They also look at whether          or not i
2 they evaluated      them correctly, you know,          from a scale 3 of zero  to four,      one    to four. And    they're at      the 4 number three,    which means they're doing          a pretty good 5 job.
6                  What -- what concerns me is that in the 7 most recent inspection report it talks            about condition a reports  having    less than      adequate    corrective action 9 plans. So  I'm just        wondering where      does corrective 10 action plan in terms        of the condition report      --    where g  11 does  that fit into this        whole story?      Because if you u
12 look at this story, it looks like the condition reports 13 are going well.      But if I look in the inspection report 14 from January 9, it's        saying that the corrective action 15 plans for the condition reports aren't quite there yet.
16 So if you could just comment on that?
17                  DR. TRAVERS:        Yes.      I think what you're 18 -- well, I know whht you're looking at is an individual                      ,
f  19 --
I think  broadly, most        broadly, you    reference two 20 things. One  is NU's        indication of      where they      think
$  21 they  stand.      And  you've    indicated      an  individual
=  22 instance of part      of our program to        look at Corrective t
[  23 Actions  and how    well it's functioning.          It's    a very 24 broad program    and it      encompasses not only      the things O                        POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
157 MEETI!JG RE: MILLSTO!1E UNITS Q                                                                  JANUARY 27, 1998 1 you'll    see  ir,  the    routine  inspection    reports      but 2 evaluations being        made in    connection    ..ith the    ICAVP 3 findings.      It's    going  to  include    a  Special    Team 4 Inspection    4500, which      is  going to    be occurring      --
5 when?
6                    CHAIRPERSON LANNING:        Starting February l
7 9.
8
                                                            ,DR. TRAVERS:        The 9th    of February, you 9 know, acheduled.          This was    put  off because      of    the 10 licensea's identification          of their not being ready for g                                    11 it.
u 12                    But,  you know,    in the    broadest sense, 13 that's one -- that's an issue we identified.              And we're 14 looking    at    this    program    because    we    think    it's 15 fundamental.        And  corrective actions      are fundamental 16 not only    to the issues      but to . employee concerns        and 17 safety-conscious work        environment in the sense that if l                                    18 you  had  a handle      on  corrective actions, if you're 19 implementing an effective program,          in my view many, if 20 not all, of the problems at          Millstone that have caused
  $                                    21 the shutdown to be        so extensive wouldn't have existed, k
22 I  mean if    you implement      a Corrective    Action Program l                                    23 effectively, if you handle          worker concerns in a prompt 24 way, effectively,        you encompass    the full scope      of --
O                                                              POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 w
 
158 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
(])                          JANUARY 27, 1998 1 and it's  big. It's not    an easy thing.            That's    why 2 Wayne developed his famous        wheel, to indicate how many 3 aruas are  touched    by  whether    or  not        you  have  an 4 effective Corrective Action Program.
5                  So  this is    certainly,          you    know,  one 6 finding  that  we  noted    in  that    routine          inspection 7 report. We have not    yet completed our            assessment of 8 Corrective    Action Program.        We have          indications    of l
9 positive  findings.      For  example, in          our reviews    of 10 Significant Item    List packages we've indicated that we p    11 are  finding  those packages      to  be  high quality          and u
12 contain correct, in our estimation,          corrective action, 13 not just for the issue but the broader implications are 14 being addressed as well.
15                  So it's  really a    very large area.            We 16 have  positives and    negatives    identified through            the 17 last year and    a half  or two years      and documented          in l    18 inspection reports.      We have    yet to come          to a    final 19 programmatic conclusion about corrective actions and we 20 won't until after our team inspection on 4500.
  '$    21                  MS. BASSILAKIS:      Thanks.        That's it.
I    22                  CHAIRPERSON LANNING:      Let's        discuss our l    23 plan for the rest of the evening.          What I'd          like to do 24 is  for those folks who      have not asked            a question and O                          POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
159                    ,
(])                                                                          AT AR              98                                                    i l
1      have                a  question                about        the      safety-conscious              work 2      environment, I'd like                                  to hear those.              And then      after 3      those folks                    have asked those questions,                          let's move on 4      to the              Independent Corrective                          Action Program part of 5      tonight's                agenda              because            I  really want        to    get    to 6      Susan's question about corrective actions                                                because it's 7      a very important question and I want an                                              opportunity to 8      answer that.                        So is that agreeable?                    Okay.
9                                            So      for      those        who  have      not    asked    a 10      question                tonight                aboat          the      safety-conscious              work g                  11      environment and have a question, raise your hand.                                                    Yes, u
12      This gentleman in the very back.
13                                            MR. McKEE:            The other        mike.        Yes.      It's 14      on.            You just have to be close.
15                                            MR.      BOB WYSOCKI:              Okay.        Bob Wysocki 16      from Block Point, Niantic.                                          A question.        I    would like 17      to know --                    I've been asking                      different places where              I 18      could buy a meter                              to monitor what's coming out                      of the I
        .                  19      nuclear                power plant?                    You know, where a guy could have                                    .
J
: f.                20      a        meter          to        monitor,              you know,        what      the    increase,
      $                  21      hopefully not, of the radiation.
I                  22                                            CHAIRPERSON LANNING:                  Can we talk to you l                  23      after the                meeting?                  And we'll try to get you an answer 24      to that question.
O                                                                    POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT              (800) 262-4102
 
_ _    - -      -      - .    - .    - _ - . - - . _ =                      . - -                    . - _ _ .              . - .    . . - .    . _ - - _ -
160 MEETING RE                !I LSTOlE UNITS 1                                                MR. WYSOCKI                  Okay.
2                                                CHAIRPERSON LANNING:                                    I don't think              we 3          know inanuf acturers.                            Yes.            You need to                          know equipment 4          or something.
5                                                MR. WYSOCKI:                Yes.        Right.                    Right.
<                      6                                                CHAIRPERSON LANNING:                                    Yes.        So I      don't 7          have -- can we get to afterwards --
i                      8                                                MR. WYSOCKI:                Yes.
9                                                CHAIRPERSON                LANNING:                    -- and get you an 10          answer?
g            11                                                MR. WYSOCKI:                Right.              Okay.            And there's 12          another            question over                    there.            Why can't                        you monitor 13          like      from anywhere from the way it is, red, yellow and 14        green?                    Why            don't        you            have            something                      like    a 15          thermometer?                      You know, as                    you're improving it will go l                    16        up to green                  or if            you're going lower,                                      you go      lower.
17        You know?                  Put it in the paper every day, publish it.
,                    18                                                Okay.      Thank you.
I            19                                                CHAIRPERSON LANNING:                              Thank you.
20                                                MR. McKEE:                Thank you.
        $            21                                                CHAIRPERSON                LANNING:                        How about            this
'        t            22          lady in the front row here?                                        You haven't had a question
;}                    23          at all tonight.
24                                                MS. MITZI BOWMAN:                        I'm not sure                        you're POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT                (800) 262-4102
)
              ,_ ,    , ,    .      -,          .-        - _ _ - ,      -          _ , _ . _                ,-...w.=.-,-~_y.            , , -        ,      e_._,,,- .-w-
 
161 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1 going to allow me                        to talk because I don't              know really 2 what the agenda prevents me --
3                                    CHAIRPERSON LANNING:                  We're on  safety-4 conscious --
5                                    MS.              BOWMAN:    Prevents me  from saying.
;      6 That's what I'm saying.
7                                    My name is Mit::1                Bowman and I come from 8 New                    Haven. I have been working and listening for many 9 years to the NRC and to Northeast                                    Utilities and coming 10 to these hearings and these conversations, g  11                                    I'm              really    concerned  workers  safety t!
12 concerns are not                        aufficient, in my view, to                cover the 13 problems of whether or not to open the Millstones.
14                                    I've been watching the NRC over a number 15 of years                    and I've                been reading the    Federal Register.
16 And                    I've  been    finding              that  your    standards,  the 17 standards                      of the      Commission, have            been deteriorating i  18 over                    the years, that every time I                  open up one of your 19 Federal Registers                              I find      relapsing standards.      Among 20 some                    of  the things                that    I'm learning  about  is the
  $  21 recycling of radioactive metals into the community.
k-22                                    So            I have    very little    confidence that I
l  23 once you decide to open those plants again after their 24 miserable record of releasing radiation                                            into the POST REbORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT                (800) 262-4102
 
  .__..m_--_____            .~.    . . . . _ _ _            __ _        . - . _ _ . _ - - . _ _ _            _ _ _. _ _
162 i                                          MEETING RE:-MILLSTONE UNITS Q                                                  JANUARY 27, 1998 1 communities, three                million curies in                    one year,          1975, 2 and then other releases before and after that, that you 3 are  going to watch                the workers safety                        concerns in an 4 adequate      manner and              that you're      going to                    act in          an 5 expeditious manner to correct                    any incipient dangers to 6 the public, as well as to the workers.
7                            Now,      I have    a lot      of respect                  for the 8 workers      and I know            how important it is                          to keep a job 9 and  how terrible it is to have to risk your employment 10 even  if    the industry you're working in is hurting g              11 people outside, so there's                    a lot of denial here.                            And 59 12 people --      I heard            someone say that                  nobody dies              from 13 nuclear power plants.                  Well --
14                          A VOICE:      No one has.
15                          MS.      BOWMAN:        Well,                      actually,        the 16 authorities        themselves have              admitted                  to deaths        from 17 nuclear power.                So  --  from the    releases.                      So we    know l              18 that the cumulative releases of radioactive materJ.als -
19 - and  I'm        --
please    let    me finish.                        That  the91 f-              20 cumulative releases                do cause      cancers.                      They  do cause
  $              21 immune disorders.                So we know about that.                          And that has 1
  -              22 been admitted by the authorities.                        So even though you -
l l              23 - your denial, the workers' denials, psychological fear 24 of accepting          that, make them            not want to                      believe it.
O                                                POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT        (800) 262-4102
 
o 163 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1 These are the facts.
2 It seems to me that the oversight by the 3 NRC has been dilatory from way back.      And as I recall a i
4 couple of years    ago, a  few year ago    coming to    these 5 meetings,  that the NRC was known to have been aware of 6 Millstone's    lack of  safety    concern for  I think  the 7 statement was 12 yearL.
8                  DR. TRAVERS:    I'm going to have to --
l 9                  MS. BOWMAN:    But that's -- all right.
10                  DR. TRAVERS:    I'm going to have to ask--
g  11                  MS. BOWMAN:    Yes.
12                  DR. TRAVERS:    If you're    unfamiliar with 13 the format  we use,    let me  just tell    you what  it is 14 because we may not have made it as clear as        we should.
15 We're in  a session now    where we're asking    people who  f 16 are  interested    in giving  un  comments  or making    us 17 questions  about    Employee  Concerns  Program,    Safety-l  18 Conscious Work Environment.
19                  MS, BOWMAN:    Mm-hmm.
20                  MR. McKEE:    As far as I can tell, you're
  $  21 not. Very L.ach on track to either.
I  22                  MS. BOWMAN:      Well,  that's  what    I'm l  23 talking about is workers' safety concerns and --
24                  MR. McKEE:    We're -- but let me --
O'                        POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (F00) 262-4102 7
 
i l
5                                                                                                                                                              164            {
()                                                                          JAli ARY                          98 1                                          MS. BOWMAN:                                -- an NRC tha't is not going 2                    to address      those workers'                                  safety  concerns after                        the t
3                    plants' reopening.
4                                          MR. McKEE:                                In fad,rness to people who --
5                                                                        (Applause) 4 6                                          MR. McKEE:                                In Cairness                to people            who 1
i                        7                    want to ask questions                            on that topic, what we                                  -- well, 8                    the way we      structure these meetings is we'll stay past 9                    midnight, and we often do, to - -
10                                            MS,          BOWMAN:                        Yes. But I can't.                        I come i f                    11                      from New Haven, s
12                                            MR. McKEE:                                I'm sorry about                        that. But
:                      13                      wt re  in a session now where we are really focused and 14                      want  to take        -- because people                                have planned                      to come 15                      here and ask us questions on this topic.
16                                            MS, BOWMAN:                                Well,  I        think I've                  said j                      17                      what I had to say.
l ll                    18                                            MR. McKEE:                                Thank you.
    -h l(                      19                                            MS. BOWMAN:                                And I just              want to remind f                20                      you that we        don't      --
we in the            community don't                        have
    -O
      .                21                      confidence that the NRC will be properly addressing the l                22                      workers'      safety      concerns                              or the  community's 4
g                                                                                                                                                      safety
[-              23                      concerns in the future.                                    So that's what I have to say, 24                                            MR. McKEE:                                Thank you.
J
* POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT                                (800) 262-4102
 
c-    - - - -              -.            - - - -                                            . - - - - - - .            _ - .
s 160
()                                                Ai AR                    98 1                                        (Applause) 2                          CHAIRPERSON LANNING:                      John?
3                          MR.        MARKOWICZ:                  John    Markowicz              from 4    Wdterford, Connecticut,                    I'd        like to just              respond to 5    some of      the comments that were                        made earlier regarding 6    the  criteria that              Little            Harbor is        using for              their 7    evaluation of attributes.
8                          The        first time              I  heard them                speak to 9    that    was    at  the        Nuclear              Regulatory      Commissioner's 10    meeting, public              meeting in Rockville.                    Don was there.
g          11    Most of you folks were here.                          And then I heard it again U
12    I think      it was the 17th                of December here                at a public 13    meeting.          Again,        it      was            Little    Harbor              making    a 14    presentation.
15                          And my recollection                      of those              positions 16    from Little Harbor              was they              came up with          a scale          of 17    from green to red and there were five blocks.                                          The  top 18    one  was green, than              there were three                  yellow and then
;  I.          19    there was red.              And the three yellow were                      brokan down 20    further.          The middle        yellow had              nothing in                it, the
    $          21    upper-level        yellow        had        a        plus  and the        lower-level l
    .          22    yellow had a minus.
1
[          23                          And Chairman Jackson,                      when she                8 tarted 24    that    meeting,        said,    "I            want,    in    response              to  my O                                              POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT                  (800) 262-4102
 
166 Al        RY        98 1                    questions, reports                                                from the presenters              as to  whether 2                      things are SAT                                      for restart, UNSAT                      for restart or  how 3                      are            they trending?"                                          And,      therefore, in    response to 4                      that,                when                Little Harbor                            came  up  to present,  they 5                      indicated                          as            a group                      that  they had    as  a consensus G                      identified that the                                                acceptable, the            SAT standard  for 7                      restart was anything that they put in a criteria box of 8                    yellow, neither plus or minus; in other words, it was a 9                    middle-range yellow.
10                                                                        Now,                  there's          been  some  discussion
  $                                11                        tonight about w%et green means.                                                          But what I'm trying to
  'J 12                        put              on the record                                    as my recollection              of that meeting 13                        and the meeting on the 17th -- and I'm reinforcing what 14                        John                -- what Mr. Beck said earlier.                                              That the standard 15                        that was established at the Commissioner's meeting                                                            and 16                        then restated here at a public meeting in                                                            December and 17                        as stated this                                      afternoon at NU                      and here this    evening 18                        has not changed.
I;                              19                                                                        Thank you.
f                                20                                                                        MR. McKEE:                      Thank you.
0-
  .                                21                                                                        CHAIRPERSON LANNING:                          Mr. Fromer.
  =                                22                                                                        MR. FROMER:                        Robert Fromer, New London, I
l                                23                        Connecticut.                                      I want to comment on                        something that was 24                        said earlier by Mr.                                                  Markowic: relative to a statement, C2
    \2                                                                                                              POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT                      (800) 262-4102 i
 
l 167 MEETIN                    R            MIRSTOli                UNITS 1        questions that I had said.
2                                      First of all,                                    when I asked            my question 3        of Dr. Thayer, you gave me a complete answer in                                                                what I 4        was        looking for.                    Perhaps Mr. Markowicz felt a need to 5        elaborate, to respond to concerns on his own part.                                                                But 6        I definitely              don't need a mouthpiece                                            to interpret how 7        answers          are given                    to          me and                    how    I accept        them or 8        respond to them or how I understand them.                                                              That happens 9        to        be a pattern.                    And so I                        want to state here for the 10          record you answered my question.                                                      Okay?
g                            11                                        DR.            TRAVERS:                            I  would    inject only        a u
12          little bit of information.                                                I know you haven't asked me 13          for it.          My name is Travers, 14                                        MR.                FROMER:                            Travers.          I'm    sorry.
15          Sorry.
16                                        Okay.                  Now, the                        question I have for you 17          is,        Dr. Travers,                    with                  respect              to    the      number    of l                            18          outstanding            allegations                              that are                under investigation 19          because I think we                            need to put this into                                    perspective.
20          Is        how    many investigators                                        does your          NRC at      King of
    $                            21          Prussia have to handle allegations?
l
    .                            22                                        DR. TRAVERS:                                  I don't know,
[                            23                                        MR. FROMER:                                  See,        that's        -- that's    a 24          point        because              if          there's                      considerable                time    delay POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i
                    ,          - . -  , . . .    - - -    ..  --,        -..                                    --                ~  ,  n...                - _ -
 
168 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1 required    to investigate,                        write    reports, analyze                and 2 evaluate    and              if          it's moving    at    this          slow a    pace, 3 perhaps serious                      consideration should be given by                        the 4 HRC to increase the number                          of investigators so you can 5 expedite the3e investigations.
6                              DR.          TRAVERS:    I was          being flip.        And 7 Wayne knows,              because            he  works    out of            the  King    of 8 Prussia    office,                      that there's    less        than      10 in    that 9 office. Just to give you a number, 10                              MR. FROMER:            Okay.      So          if there's less 11 than 10 and they're                        going at this very slow                pace, has 12 any serious            consideration been                  given to            increase the 13 budget or hiring on more investigators?
14                              DR.          TRAVERS:        I      can't          answer    it 15 directly.      But I will tell you that the agency hangs at 16 budget  time            every year,              considers          a      whole host- of 17 issues. And I would expect I can speak very clearly on l  18 this without any real knowledge                            of it, but to              suggest 19 that the    Director of                      the Office of            Investigations at 20 budget time each year raises the                            issue of resources in f  21 discussion.            But I don't have a --
: t. 22                              MR. FROMER:          I think this is --
5 l  23                              DR.          TRAVERS:    I    don't            have a  direct 24 understanding of how he                          does it or what his                basis for O                                        COST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT          (800) 262-4102
 
169 g                                                                      JA kR          98 1  doing it is.
2                                                        MR. FROMER:    See,    the    thing is      that 3  given    the                            concern            of    the    public    and,  also,      the 4  employees in terms of                                          resolution, I think considerable 5  input and                      pressure could                      be    brought to      bear by      the 6  public and                              the employees at              budget time with      the NRC 7  and also with the U.S. Congress to encourage. increasing 8  the budget to increase the number of investigators so 9  that you can perform your duties and obligations under 10  the    law as                                    expeditiously as        possible      because people 11  have legitimate                                          concerns here, but I        think they're in 12  many    cases                                      ignorant    about your    resources    and      your 13  circumstances and                                          your limitations as to        what you can 14  do. So perhaps the public can support your efforts to 15  increase the number of inspectors.
16                                                        Now, one of the things that has come out 17  here    with respect to a situation where the CRC and Mr.
18  Don    Delcore                                      have  people    coming    "o
                                                                                                . them based          on 7
19  ignorance,                              whether            contractors      or    otherwise,        and f      20  they're      directing                                    these people    to    Little  Harbor or I      21  they're                directipi                            them  to    the    Employee  Concerns k-22  Program.
l      23                                                        It  seems  like    these      four  different 24  people are performing two roles.                                              In one case, they're e                                                                  POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102
 
170 g                                                              M  RY                      8 1 acting    as ombudspeople                                    and          also oversigl>            ;arsonnel 2 where    Little Harbor's role is not to do that, by their 3 own charter, with NU.
4                                          It would seem that                            the way to z.lleviate 5 this duality of duties would be to perhaps charter                                                          the 6
CRC or Mr. Delcore by the NRC without any pay or maybe 7 with some pay                            --
I don't know.                That would have to be 8 worked out    --
where they would                              serve in an      ombudsman 9 role.
10                                        Now, the U.S. Navy has a very successful
  $  11 ombudsman program and the sub base has it.                                                          And perhaps 9
12 the NRC    should contact                                    the Base Commander                    to explore 13 the ombudsman                          program to                    see how          it workr:    what its 14 functions and                          purposes are, and how                              successful it is.
15 Because I      think in                                  this area,                something needs      to be 16 done.
17                                        Now, for example,                            Infoline, which is      a l  28 private    organi::ation                                  tut provides                  information about
  . 19 resources in                Connecticut, I seriously doubt                                          that they f  20 are providing                            information to people who                            are trying to
  . 21 find assistance or help                                      wici respect to nuclear energy I
  =  22 pro u*lems  or with                                    respect          to nuclear          problems,    like 5
l  23 contractors.
24                                            So maybe they could be                            the ombudsperson G                                                          POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT                  (800) 262-4102
 
171 Q                                                    M kR        98 1 and then they could put ads in the newspaper, on TV and 2 circulate flyers around Millstone                            to say, " Hey, if you 3 don' t know what to do, where to ( ) end who to see, come 4 to us and we'll point you in the direction."
5                                        LHC  should not  be  doing  this. They 6 should strictly be                          impartial observers who report      and l
l 7 evaluate.                          And like was brought    up this evening, when 8 they -- when they go away, what do you have?
9                                        And  so what I'm suggesting is a vehicle 2
10 that you                        could have in place    so that when they    do go g    11 away,                        there  isn't a  void. There isn't    this vacuum u
12 that's created.                          Now, you may want to give very-serious 13 consideration to that.
14                                        Now, one final point that I want to make 15 is                  that        the Employee    Concerns    Program,  which is    a 16 safety-conscious                          issue, is  really an issue    that I've 17 addressed previously at many separate occasions and Mr.
l    18 Durr, under questioning from me in the                            past, has given
  . 19 us a quan-- given us a number relative to this factor.
f    20                                        The reliability and the      availability of O
  . 21 Millstone operations is driven and controlled                              by human
  !    22
  =      either reliability                          or human unreliability.      Mr. Durr E
[    23 said that 50 percent, at least -- and I would say more, 24 90 percent of the problems                            are human problems -- human
()                                              POST REPORTING SERVICE RAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
172 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS ll)                                                                            JANUARY 27, 1998 1    error          problems.                                            Someone    did something        they weren't 2      supposed to do, should                                                  have done something.            And this 3    goes clear across the board.
4                                                                    Now,  the desire,    the  purpose of        what 5    you're trying                                                  to do is increase the      availability in a 6      safe way                              of Millstone                      and to --    and in        order to    do 7      that, it is absolutely essential to reduce and minimize 8      the human unreliability.
9                                                                    Now,  I've said this before and I'll say
  !I        10      it again.                                              There is no way that a        nuclear power plant
      $    11  .
can        be                        safe                    because  you    cannot    guarantee        human u
12      reliability.                                                But what  you can do at best          is minimize 13l    the unreliability of                                                  humans. And that's        what you are 14      focusing -- your direction is geared towards.                                                            Okay?
15                                                                    And so  I still maintain      you can        never 16    have safe nuclear power.                                                      But if you're going          to have 17    nuclear                        power,                            the idea    is to  reduce        that. And a
      $    19    measure of the reduction                                                    of human unreliability in the 19'    Employee Concerns                                                  area is the reduction          of the number 20      of allegations coming to you because the employees have
      . 21      trust        and confidence that                                            their supervisors and their
      -    22    managers are                                                  seriously listening in a      credible way L E
l    23      those concerns                                                and  they're    going  to  do        everything 24      physically                                              possible      to    realize    those        concerns O                                                                          POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102
 
173 ll)                                                                                HAT    RY      98 1  irrespective                                                      of cost.      And  so until that        can occur, 1
2  these power plants should not start up.
3                                                                      Thank you.
4                                                                      CHAIRPERSON LANNING:      Thank you.
5                                                                      Okay. Mr. Imbro, who has been extremely 6  quiet tonight.
7                                                                      MR. GENE IMBRO:      My name is Gene Imbro.
8  I'm  Deputy Director                                                        of ICAVP    Oversight.        That's the 9  Independent Corrective Action Verification Program.                                                                  I 10  wanted                            to try and give                              you quickly a    status of where g    11  the program implementation is.                                                            It's kind of        late, so 2
12  I'll try and ba brief.
13                                                                      As  you know,    for Unit  3 the        ICAVP is 14  looking at                                                    15 of    the    88 systems. Unit      3 ICAVP  is 15  nearing                                    completion.                        Sargent &  Lundy is        winding up, 16  winding                                    up their                    reviews.      I  believe they're        still 17  looking                                              at            some    corrective    actions        and    some i    18  modifications for the RSS, recirculation spray system.
19                                                                      But  I    think  the projected        completion f    20  would be some time towards the end of the month or sort
. 21  of  -- or towards mid-February when they' re going to be
!    22  done, g
s l    23                                                                      Now,    we  --
again,  we're      doing    an 24  oversight                                                    of Sargent & Lundy and Parsons as well.              But G                                                                              POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT      (800) 262-4102
 
174 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS ll)                                                                JANUARY 27, 1998 1 we've -- where we are now is we have completed our out-2 of-scope                                          inspection. We had an enforcement conference 3 several weeks ago.                                            Two issues primarily that        came up 4 for                                      --
in  the  enforcement conference        were the    air-5 binding issue                                          for the safety injection        pumps and also 6 the leakage                                          of -- back-leakage from valves tnat would 7 isolate the radioactive fluid                                              from flowing back to the 8 refueling                                          water storage    tank    after loss    of  coolant 9 accident.
10                                                        Wnat we found after some length of time, g    11 the leakage issue                                          had been    identified by      NU back    in S
12 June                                        and they somehow    did not remember      that they had 13 identified that,                                          so didn't tell us      until very shortly 14 before the enforcement conference.                                              So that issue is --
15 again, was already identified by the licensee.
16                                                        The air-binding issue      we felt was    a--
17 you                                      know, a concern to      us certainly because it really l    18 questioned                                          the  operability    of  the    safety injection 19 pimps.
20                                                        After  a long study, both analytical and
. 21 lacoratory                                          tests,    Northeast Utilities      concluded that
!    22 g      the                                      pumps would have been able to pass the air without 5
l    23 impairing                                          the    functionality      or      the    continued 24 operability of the pumps.                                            Again, that's something that G                                                                POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102
 
175 kR        98                        ,
1  they described                                at the meeting,    for those of    you that 2 were                              here, I    think we    need to  take a  look at    that 3  again.
4                                              But, in  any case, those two      issues are 5  still                              being    discussed    among    our  staff    and  the 6  enforcement action yet is not finalized.
7                                              For our in fection, again, we have the -
8  -
the            ICAVP    oversight    is kind  of  a  multi-faceted 9  approach.                              " include 3 the out-of-scope inspection that 10  7 "ust talket                              cout. It also included --      includes an
  $  11  inspection of Tier 2, Tier 3,                                  Sargent & Lundy program, d
12  That inspection,                                Tier 2,  Tier 3 inspection,      has been 13  completed.                              We're going to    have a public exit tomorrow 14  at                        9:00 in the Training Center for anyone who wants to l
15  attend.
16                                              We're  also  looking    at  the    Tier  1, 17  Sargent                              & Lundy    evaluation. That  inspection is    in i  18  process now.                                We're probably looking -- that inspection i
  . 19  will be                              completed at Sargent      & Lundy February    6 with f  20  the                            teams on    site  here now.      We v411  probably    be O
  . 21    looking                            for a public exit meeting on that as well some 22  time towards mid to late February.
l  23                                              One more inspection      after that will    be 24  we're going                              to conduct a corrective action inspection.
O                                                    POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 1
 
176 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS x                                                          JANUARY 27, 1998 1  And                              that's  going to  be    to  evaluate the  corrective 2  actions                              that  NU has  taken    both with  regard  to the 31 Sargent & Lundy issues                                and plus, additionally,      issues 4  that                              have  come about    as  part  of the  Configuration 5  Marrgement Plan that NU                                has self-identified.      So we're 6  going to look at both facets, both facets of that.
7                                              And we're    also  going to  look at    some l        8  other corrective actions that NU has taken in response 9  to this                              issue of  air-binding of the      safety injection 10  pumps.                              NU has stated that the reason that this was not g      11  identified by them -- and that                                  was certainly a concern S
12  to                              us with regard to the efficacy of the Configuration 13  Management                              Plan they  conducted    -- was  that the    way 14  their program was set up, it didn't necessarily look at 15  system operation                                from starting after an      accident. It 16  turas out that the recirculation spray system is                                      a dry 17  lay-up system.                                And that really    hadn't been evaluated A  by them.
I
  .      19                                              What they    have done,  at least    as they f      2C  explained to the enforcement conference, is they have -
O
  ,    21  - they've, quote, " completed this additional                                  effort of k-22  an eight-person team comprised of design engineers                                      and 5
l    23  operators to look at actually the way the system starts 24  up and operates."
O'-                                                    POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT    (800; 262-4102
 
177 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
  -([                                                                        JANUARY 27, 1998 1                                                              So-that- area, at least    as explained to 2                                            us, appears to    have been  re-evaluated by NU.      And    I 3                                            think they've    identified  -- they've    identified      some 4                                            additional areas      that they're going to    fix. However, 5
we need to overview that to make sure that then the CMP 6                                            program is complete.      So that's going to    be a part of 7                                            our  Corrective    Action  Program,    is going  to  be    to 8                                            evaluate the NU corrective actions and how they enhance 9                                            their CMP as a result of-this inspection formulating.
10                                                              Okay. Let me give you some -- still on g-  11                                            Unit  3  --
some    statistics. And  I think- these are W-12                                            probably as of today or yesterday.
0-  13                                                              The total number    of preliminary DR's --
14                                            and I    stress preliminary. And  what preliminary means 15                                            is that they've been_ issued by Sargent & Lundy based on 16                                            the  information available    to Sargent    & Lundy.        They-17                                            have    not all  been  evaluated by    NU yet. In  fact, 18                                            McLaughlin had not.
4
  ,    19                                                              So the total    preliminary number of DR's 20                                            issued    is 974. Of  those 974 issued,    Sargent & Lundy
  $    21                                            has  closed 120, which    means that Sargent    & Lundy has 1  -
22                                            looked    at the  NU  response, has    agreed  that NU      has 5
l    23                                            adequately responded to the issue.
24                                                              So  closed would  mean that    they    --
it O                                                                      POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
178
()                                                                        AN  R          98 1 would fall                                                into three categories.        These are    -- they 2 could be either confirmed                                                    DR's, which means that, yes, 3 it's -- all agree that this is a problem that                                                          needs to 4 be fixed.                                                  They  could be pre-identified,      which would 5 mean                              that NU                    has presented      information to    Sargent &
6 Lundy                                          indicating          that    NU    had  pre-identified      the 7 problem.                                                And --    or the third case would be they could l
8 be issues                                                that on    further information provided          by NU 9 are not really problematic at all.
10                                                              So,  to go    back,    974 preliminary      DR's
  $  11 issued,                                                120    closed,    54    confirmed.      And,    again, 9
12 conf!                                    ad meane that this                -- both agree that    --
or NU 13 agreas that this is a problem that needs to be fixed, i    14                                                              To    further      elaborate    on      the    54 15 confirmed, 53 of those were Level 4.                                                      And, again, Level 16 4,                  as                        some of          you know,    is  below the  threshold of 17 regulatory concern                                                  on an individual level, which means l  18 that                              these issues                    are not    really in    non-conformance
  . 19 with regard                                                to the  licensing basis.        But there      are f  20 minor editorial errors, minor calculational errors that O
  . 21 don't affect                                                the  results of      the  calculation,      minor b
  =  22 document                                                inconsistencies      that    don't cause    a    safety 5
l  23 concern.                                                Again, they need to be fixed, not -- but not 24 -- but they're not an issue of non-conformance with the O                                                                    POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT      (800) 262-4102
 
179
()                                                          MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1 licensing basis.                                            So of the 54, only one le a licensing 2 basis issue.
3                                                        Unit 2.      Unit    2 is not    nearly as    far 4 along.                                          Parsons    has  done    (indiscernible) Sargent      &
5 Lundy.                                            They started    later, as    you    know. We have 6 performed                                          an implementation        inspection at      Parsons to 7 evaluate                                          whether or    not  Parsons is    --
or how  well 8
Parsons is implemented the order plan that was approved 9 by  NRC.                                            The    report    should    be  out    next    week.
10 Essentially, we've                                            concluded that      Parsons is doing      a g    11 reasonable job in implementing 9
the order pla1.      So we 12 have no question with their implementation.
13 I don't have as detailed information and 14 stats on Unit                                          2. But  as of about      a week ago,    there 15 were about 170 preliminary DR's                                                issued and 20 of those 16 were closed.
17                                                        Mr. Markowic ?
{    18                                                        MR. MARKOWICZ:        Under  your Unit    3,  do 19 you  have the invalid?                                              Do    you have    the rest    of the 20 numbers of the 120?                                              You said 54 were        confirmed. Can
$    21 you finish out to get to 120?
I. 22                                                        MR. IMBRO:    Let's see.
5 l    23                                                        MR. MARKOWICZ:      Do you have that?
24                                                        MR. IMBRO:    Okay. Well, the 974 --
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102
                                                  ~_                                                              ---_
 
180 At    kR            8 1                    MR. MARKOWICZ:          No. Down to 120 --    54 2 colifirmed . So it's the --
3                    MR. IMBRO:          Oh. No, I don't    have that 4 in front of      me. But I can get it          for you. That's no 5 problem. I don't have that breakdown.
6 i
MS. PERRY LUXTON:          What about 854?
7                    A VOICE:        854.
8                    MS, PERRY LUXTON:          What happened to 854?
9 They're not closed?      What are they?
10                    MR. IMBRO:            They're    still    in  the 11 process.
12                    MS, PERRY LUXTON:          They're evaluating --
13                    MR. IMBRO:          Yes. Yes. They're  not 14 going to be forgott0a.            Believe me.
15                    DR. TR.TVERS:          Gene, can I    just add one 16 thing to what you said on Level 4?                Just so we -- we've 17 talked about this before, but let me just reiterate it.
l 18                    Even though individual Lt.el              4 findings
  . 19 are not significant, they are being evaluated.                  And the f 20 reason they're included in the scope                of this review is O
  . 21 we want to in the aggregate see if they present a trend
  = 22 that suggests      the need to        perhaps expand our      look or E
l 23 have the    licensee do something more in              the context of 24 their program.
POST REPOR iNG SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 u
 
181
()                                                            JA1    R      2        8 i                                                  So,  in addition          to individual        Level 4 2          findings, we                            are attempting          to assess whether          or nat 3        there is                            any significance            to the aggregate.          And      an 4        example of that                            might be, you know, if you look at how 5        many                            opportunities      there        might    have    been        in    a 6        particular area                            to find a finding,            that might suggest 7          in        a                  relative  proportion          whether or    not    that's      a 8        problem.                            If  you look in a particular area, mechanical 9        discipline, sedimentation and control, for example, you 10        might                            suggest that    if you        got an unreasonable          or an g  11          alarming rate of                            identified insignificant,                relatively 12          insignificant issues                            but        itevertheless issues        in      one 13          area,                          that we might -- that might suggest either us or 14          they looking for -- or, fet example, if these                                          findings 15          showed up                          in particular documents, FSAR                or some other 16          particular type of document that the licensee produces, 17          it        might suggest a                      need to go          out and look      at those
  $  18          documents.
: l. 19                                                  So,  in  addition          to    recognizing          the 20          relative                            low    significance          of    Level      4's,    we're O
  . 21          attempting                          to assess    the        impact or    the meaning,          if k=
22          there is any, in the aggregate findings.
5 l  23                                                  MR. IMBRO:          Yes?    Please.
24                                                  MR. JOE NAZAR:          What is the oblig --
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT          (800) 262-4102
 
182 (g)                                                                AllkR          9 8 1                                            MR. IMBRO:              Come on.              Come up.
2                                            MR.            NAZAR:      What is the              obligation to 3 close --
4                                            MR. IMBRO:              Please come up and -- people 5 can't hear you.                                          And    they can't record              you on  tape.
6 They'd like to hear j<ur voice.
7                                            MR. NAZAR:              Hi. Joe            Nazar, Pittsburgh, 8 Pennsylvania.                              My question is to the 974 DR's.                            What is 9 the  agreement                                      in terms    of  bringing            those to    final 10 adjudication prior to any vote for restart?
g    11                                            MR. IMBRO:                Well,          they're going      to be U
12 evaluated    through the                                        NU restart              evaluation process, 13 So not all -- I mean                                          clearly if it's an issue where it 14 involves a non-conformance                                            with the plant's              licensing 15 basis, those                        will be completed                      -- corrective              actions 16 will be completed before restart.
17                                              Some            of  the issues,              for  example, the l    18 Level  4's,      they're,                                    again,    they're            not really    non-19 conformance              with the                              licensing basis.                They  need to 20 recognize that                                        there are some mistakes                out there that I    21 need  to be fixed and they're correct those.                                                        And we're ig  22 going  to                                              them track                                              to  make    sure          that    they  get s
l    23 completed.                  But                          those may not      be completed              prior to 24 restart and there would be no need to.
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT            (800) 262-4102
 
183 lll                                                        AlikR            9 8 1                                              However, I mean, as Dr. Travers said, if 2  there are so programmatic                                  implications that out of the 3  Level 4                              trending, those    --
that type            of programmatic 4  issue would need to be resolved prior to restart.
5                                              MR. NAZAR:      So then if      --
(({            6                                              MR. IMBRO:      But the    individual --          the 7  individual issues for Level 4's may not be completed --
8  all may not be completed before restart.
9                                              MR. NAZAR:      So    then if I understand you 10  correctly,                              the balance    of 850      DR's,          the preliminary
        @    11  level, will ultimately --                                  NU and Sargent &            Lundy will d
12  come                  to              an  agreement        as  to    their          level    and 13  significance,                              et cetera,      prior to    the NRC          making --
14  looking at all the data and then making generalizations 15  and conclusions --
16                                              MR. IMBRO:      Yes.
17                                              MR. NAZAR: -- based on that.
18                                              MR. IMBRO:      Yes.
I. 19                                              MR. NAZAR:        And  thea. that          will happen 20  prior to the tentative restart vote in April?
        $    21                                              MR. IMBRO:      That's right.            They're going i    22  to    go -- all DR's g                                                          will go through        the process betore s
l    23  restart.                              All I'm saying is that the actual                corrective 24    --
physical                          corrective        action    making          all  these POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT      (800) 262-4102
 
184 g                                                                                    M  R          98 1      editorial                                                    corrections    may    not    necessarily  be  done 2      before restart.
3                                                                          MR. NAZAR:      I'm just    surprised, given 4      the rate of                                                      closure so far, that      NU seems to  feel it        ,
5      has sufficient                                                      resources to meet the      April vote date, 6      given that there are 700 still open.
7                                                                          MR. IMBRO:  I    mean, clearly, there's a 8      challenge.                                                      There's a lot    of work here      on the table.
9      But that's sotrathing that they need to address.
10                                                                          CHAIRPERSON LANNING:      John?  Bill?
R  11                                                                          DR. TRAVERS:    Can I j ust make a comment, 0
12      John?                                                    After your question and answer, I would propose, 13      if                            people                          will indulge    me a    few  minutes, to    add a 14      little bit something to our previous                                                          discussions about 15      ICAVP                                                    and the  process the    staff is    using to    assess 16      whether                                                    or not  and  what kind    of expansion    of ICAVP 17      scope might be appropriate.
$  18                                                                          We've done    some    thinking. We've  had 19      some criticisms of that in                                                        the 9ast. We've had a    lot 20      of                              discussion at that meeting.                              'ad if I may, I'd like
$  21      to take an opportunity to talk about that just briefly.
1
-  22                                                                          MR. MARKOWICZ:      This is  John Markowicz 5
l  23      again,                                                    also  known as  Mouthpiece.        Gene, could    you 24      explain exactly -- if you do this trending of the Level POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
185 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
(])                                                                        JANUARY 27, 1998 1 4's and                                                you've closed out Tier 2 and Tier 3, which are 2 programmatic,                                                  could you    explain    logically  what  the 3 relationship may or may not be and how you                                                        would deal 4 with                      it?                              Because,                  you clearly, if          end up  with  a 5 trending from                                                  Level 4  that's programmatic      and you've 6 closed out Tier                                                  2 and Tier 3    and they're programmatic 7 issues,                                                it kind of makes you wonder about Tier 2        Tier 8 3. I'm asking for a logical explanation --
9                                                                MR. IMBRO:    Okay. Yes.
10                                                                MR. MARKOWICZ:    --
of how that's    going
  $    11 to tie tegether.
U 12                                                                MR. IMBRO:      I'm trying to  relate this.
13 I mean all of the Level 4 issues could come out of Tier 14 1,    Tier 2 or Tier 3, 15                                                                MR. MARKOWICZ:    Oh. Okay.
16                                                                MR. IMBRO:    So I mean there would      be --
17 so what we're                                                  doing is  we're looking at    the DR's    no l    18 matter where                                                  they come  from, from whatever      aspect of I. 19 the            Sargent & Lundy                                        review. We'll try  and put -- we f    20 have a relational data                                                  base set up in access.      And so 0
  ,    21 what we're trying to look for are trends.
1
  =    22                                                                For example, if there are a large number 5
l    23 of calculational errors                                                    in the mechanical    engineering 24 area, then that may suggest that NU may need to go back POST RFPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102
 
186
({}                                                  A    kR        98 1
and do some broader review in that area to see if there 2    are any significant problems                            that come up. I  mean it 3    may go back                    and find, " Gee.        Okay. There are    other 4    minor errors.                      But there don't seem          to be any    -- you 5    know, no safety                      issues come        for the fore."      So  it's 6    that kind of thing we're looking at.
7                                      So    it's not      really a    Tier 1,    Tier 2, 8    Tier    3.                  But  it's really        a combination    of all.      So 9    we're looking at things like errors perhaps in the FSAR 10    or drawing errors or                        field installation errors or some g    11    things                  --
things of        that  sort where    you    could say s
12    "There                  seems to be a weakness here.            We haven't really 13    found          a safety              problem based on          -- because    they're t
I      14    Level 4's.                    But,    still, it would peak our        interest to 15    say    maybe we                  should look        more in    that area    because 16    maybe there is something there that's been missed.
17                                      MR. MARKOWICZ:        So I guess what I'm hung l    18    up on is the word " programmatic."                          My understanding was 19    Tier 3 kind of looked --
20                                      MR. IMBRO:        Oh.
  $    21                                      MR. MARKOWICZ:          Tier 2 and    3 looked at
: b. 22    programmatic.                    And so when you say --
I
[    23                                      MR. IMBRO:        I'm sorry.
24                                      MR. MARKOWICZ:        -- programmatic trending O                                              POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT        (800) 262-4102
 
187 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS lg)                                                        JANUARY 27, 1998 1 of Tier 1 Level 4's,                                          I'm wondering --
g      2                  MR.                                IMBRO:                                  No. You're    right. And 3 that's  a good    question.                                                                I probably      should clarify.
4 Tier  3 did    look                        at programmatic                                            areas    in terms  of 5 commercial grade dedication, Master Grippens part list, 6 set  point control,                                          those types                          of things.      What  we 7 suggested    -- and the trending is not so much errors in 8 those particular                    programs but othe'                                                    types of    things, 9 like specific types of errors                                                                    in documents or a      large 10 number of arithmetical errors in calculations.                                                                        I guess g    11 maybe  programmatic is a bad                                                                  word. But  it's -- maybe 0
12 generic is a better word for that.
13                  DR.                                TRAVERS:                                  John, before    you leave, 14 let  me suggest two possible                                                                  paths in Level      4 for the 15 identification      of trends                                                              and  any follow-up      that  we 16 might have.
17                  Path No. 1 is                                                                based on numerous Level 4 18 findings. Corrective                                                                actions will    be developed    the l
  . 19 licensee.      The                  expectation in                                                  any  good  Corrective 20 Action Program isn't that                                                                  -- not just that      issue, but
  $    21 the broader    implications of that issue                                                                    be assessed by l    22
  ;      the licensee.
s l    23                  So                          Path 1                                      goes    something    like  this.
24 Before  we ever            developed conce                                                            about a    trend, the O                                  POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT                                                                (800) 262-4102
 
188 MEETIN  R      14 I      TO!E UNITS 1 licensee does the very same thing.                                                      It addresses in its 2 planned                        corrective actions both the correction of that 3 issue and the broader question.
4                                                            In that event,          it's my expectation that 5 we would independently verify that they were doing that
]        6 and        that we                                        would  not, quote,          unquote, " expand  the 7 ICAVP" as a consequence.
8                                                            Path  No. 2        would  be in  the aggregate I_      9 again,                Level 4                                findings indicate          some sort  of trend R        10 which we identify and                                                which the licensee's          Corrective
    $  11 Action Program does not assess and hasn't e.ssess?d.
9 12                                                            In that    instance,      we might    likely  do 13 something independent.                                                  We might ask Sargent & Lundy to 14 do something.                                                We might turn it          on the licensee to do 15 something.                                              You know, it's        sort of an expectation that 16 we would                                  confirm that the necessary                        actions are taken 17 somehow, some way, and that in this case, it could work l  18 different ways.
19                                                            MR. MARKOWICZ:          I understand.
20                                                            DR. TRAVERS:          And  that leads in to what e
    . 21  I wanted                                  to discuss for just                      a few minutes. You can
    !-  22  sit      down, if you'd like.                                              You may have questions after E
l  23  I say my piece.
24                                                            We have had a          lot of opportunities    and O                                                                  POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT          (800) 262-4102
 
189 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS lll                              JANUARY 27, 1998 1  Mr. Delcore    and  Mr.                        Markowicz  and  others  in  the 2  audience to discuss from                            the very outset the construct 3  of our ICAVP Program.                            The order, of course, was issued 4  in  August    of '96.                And          since  the issuance  of that 5  order, the NRC staff here really has been charged                              with ll[          6  how we  were going to -- you know, how we were going to k)          7  sort of dictate the boundaries of that program.                                We've s
8  done a lot of work to do that.
9                    And back                        in January of '97    in a paper, M          10  we  identified,    consintent                        with the  purpose  of this
      $    11  order, which was to          conform that the licensee                      met its
      'J 12  licensing    design  basis,                        that  our  program  and  its 13  acceptance    criteria for                        assessing performance    of the 14  utility in assuring          that same thing                    was going to  use 15  that as the acceptance criteria for our program.
16                    We've had a lot of discussion about that 17  and  whether tnat's a reasonable thing to do.                            But that l    18  was  the way the order was constructed and that was the 19  fundc. mental  acceptance criteria,                          regulatory standard, f    20  if you will, that the staff has been using.
        . 21                    Nevertheless, when we attempted                            to come
      !-  22  before the public at meetings such as this and describe 5
l  23  what    we were  doing, a legitimate                          concern in  my mind 24  arose from    people who attend                          our meetings. And that e                          POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT                          (800) 262-4102 l
 
190 Al          R        98 1 concern    had to do with, "Well, can you explain in more 2 detail how you are going to implement that program and 3 under what circumstances you                        might expand the scope of 4 what you originally are doing?"                        You know, we picked 15 5 --
people    have talked about four systems.                        That's not 6 right. There      are        15 systems            being evaluated  under 7 ICAVP.
8                    But that aside, you can argue whether 15 9 or    four is enough.              But, nevertheless,            we received a l    10 criticism and we attempted                        in public meetings to reect g  11 to    that criticism, to present what was in our mind, at
:9 12 least, as    to how we were                    going to proceed    as we were 13 faced    with    the inevitable                    findings that  we expected 14 fully to find in the course of our examination.
15                    And in            doing          that, we  developed  four 16 levels of significance that correlate to those original 17 definitions in          our January Commission Paper of defect; l  18 in    other words,            something            that  demonstrates a  non-I. 19 conformance with              the licensing basis,              and deficiency, f  20 something that we're going                        to look for but  doesn't  --
O
  ,  21 and those four levels of significance, fully consistent l  22 with those      original definitions, at least                      for Level 3 l  23  indicated    that          for    the          first    three  levels    of 24  significance any finding would be categorized either as POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT                    (800) 262-4102 l
1
 
191 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
* JANUARY 27, 1998 1 something                                                    that conformed            or  didn't conform with the 2 licensing basis.
3                                                                  Three            levels        of      non-conforming 4 categories                                                    were developed,            Levels    1,  Levels 2,    ana 5 Levels 3.                                                    The fourth level is            the one we've just been 6 discussing.                                                      And it has          to do with      any findings that 7 fell below that regulatory standard of conformance with 8 the licensing basis.                                                          And we said that even though that 9 was tha case,                                                    we were          going to look      for them  anyhow 10 because we                                                    -- we recognized that            multiple examples of 11 that                                                  kind  of  thing          could    put  into    question    the l
12 licensing basis in areas that we hadn't looked.
13                                                                  What            was      requested,        in      ;ny 14 characterization, at some of the meetings was something 15 more.                                                    And    we attempted          to further,      in addition    to 16 identifying                                                    the categories            or significance      levels of 17 the kinds of findings that might occur, we attempted to-l 18 describe                                                    the  corresponding            NRC  actions    that  would 19 result                                                  or could    result        or would      likely result    from 20 identified                                                      findings          of  those    different    levels    of C
  . 21 significance.
22                                                                  So  we        discussed      those    at  a  public g
l 23 meeting as well.                                                      And the criticism we got, and I think 24 it certainly still exists in                                                              the minds of several, and POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT            (800) 262-4102
 
Mt-192 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
(])                                                              JANUARY 27, 1998 1                          many          perhaps, was    that we              had put                corresponding NRC 2                          actions          that were not automatic, were not prescriptive i            3                          enough, were          not definite enough, left                              wiggle room or 4                          were vague.
5                                                  And we held and                            continue to hold to the 6                          view that          that's an appropriate reaction                              or that's an
  ,          7                            appropriate          way to carry              out these                complex licensing 8                            and          design  basis        level        reviews                because        automatir 9                            thresholds        -- we're saying              if you                get "X"        number of    j 10                            those        or "Y" number of these, you're going to react in g      11                            exactly this way or exactly that                                    way, didn't strike us u
12                            as something that we could                      legitimately predeterminate 13                            in advance        of having reviewed the                            significance of the 14                              finding and the corrective actions being implemented by 15                            the licensee and so on.
16                                                  Nevertheless, for Le* 31                            1 we        indicated 17                              that      NRC would likely pick                a whole new system, likely l      18                            pick a whole other system to expand ICAVP if we got one 19                            Level 1 finding.        But              that was likely.                  It didn't        say 20                            definitely.        It said likely.
      .      21                                                  Level 2.              Level 2 -- well, I should tell b
      ;      22                            you what        Level 1    is.              Level 1 is                the failure        of an 3
l      23                              entire safety system, both trains if they're redundant.
24                                                  Level            2  involves                the  failure        of one O                                                            POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT              (800) 262-4102
 
193 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS lgg                                                                        JANUARY 27, 1998 1 train of a multiple-train safety system.                                                                          And for Level 2 2,  we said again the NRC would likely expand the ICAVP 3 scope,  not so much to                                                  pick a whole            other system this 4 time, but to                                                identify in other systems                          or evaluate in 5 other    systems                                                potential    similar            non-conformances.
6 Again, we said likely.                                                    And we were not -- we                          did not 7 commit any further than that to what we would do.
8                                                              And  in Level  3,    we indicated                        that we 9 would  assess those issues and the resultant corrective 10 actions on the part of the licensee to make a similar g    11 determination, would -- in                                                  fact, in this case, instead V
12 of  saying likely, we say could result in the expansion 13 of scope to look                                                  for similar non-conformances in other 14 systems.
15                                                              And,    again, we just          discussed Level 4.
16 In? in Level 4,                                                we said we would look for trends.
17                                                              We    have    recei' red            some              additional l    18 criticism                            of late for that.                          And    it's in an Office of 19 the Inspector                                                General Report that suggested                            that that 20 approach is, in fact,                                                  vague and not very helpful.                                We
$    21 have looked                                            at that        criticism and your                          criticism and b
;    22 we've -- we are                                                  attempting, and we're going to                          try to 5
l    23 document some additional                                                  discussion of our                          intentions 24 as we have been carrying out this program.
O                                                                      POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102
 
194 lgg                                                              All        R                  98 1                      And I thought I'd just touch on each one 2 of those for you, if I may, to give you a sense of what 3 we're    trying          to                              do.                    Basically,      or  sort    of 4 fundamentally, without                                              giving you              the details      -- and 5 those we're        going to                                        try          to document      in letters    to
))}      6 NEAC,  to      the        ICAVP                                    contractors              and  to  NU.      And 7 certainly      they're                                    going                to  receive      b" cad    public 8 distribution.
9                      But the fundamental objectives                                                        and what 10 the additional discussion would indicate has to do with
    $    11 making    clear      references to                                                  our    regulatory standards u
12 that  we      use  every                                        day, Appendix              B,  Criterion    16, 13 Generic Letter 91-18                                              which discusses                non-conformances 14 and  how      utilities                                    deal          with          disposition      of  non-15 conformances.
16                      The second thing we                                                    tried to do is make 17 more specific the process.                                                        Who has the authority?        Who l    18 has the responsibility?                                                Who gets briefed on findings?
19 How quickly        are decisions made on                                                    expansion of scope?
20 How are they documented?
    . 21                      We                        are                  going            to    further    explain the
    -    22 process we're using for assessing the effectiveness                                                              of E
l    23 corrective      actions in reaching decisions on whether or 24 not to expand the ICAVP                                              scope.            Corrective actions, we O                                        POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
195 MEETING R            MI        E UNITS 1      think, are fundamental to this process.                      Perhaps not so 2    much in Levels            1 and 2, but certainly in            Levels 3 and 3    4.        Again, in Levels            1 and 2, absent -- I'll        give you 4    an example, 5                          In      Level 1,          we're  going    to    document 6    that,        absent  an      Executive          Director    for Operations' 7    determination that            we don't expand the            ICAVP scope by 8    picking another system, we're going to.                        So we're go!.ng 9    to document that as              a position or a likely,            you know, 10    likely position.
g        11                          Level 2, we'd              do something similar          but c
12    it        would target      the        Director of    the Office      Nuclear 13    Reactor Regulation as                  the negative,      you know,    person 14    who        would have      to intervene in          such an    expansion of j          15    scope.
16                          Again,            generally,    what we're      going to 17    discuss and        document emphasizes              that when we      look at l        18    corrective        actions        in      our    ICAVP    determinations        on 19    whether or not to            expand scope, we're looking at                  them 20    from the context of              an independent verification by the O
4
  ,        21    NRC staff.          We're not            just going    to rely cn      what NU g        22    says        it's    doing      relative          to    the    performance        of s
l        23    corrective actions.
24                          And      lastly, it will            further discuss in O                                          POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT              (800) 262-4102 i
 
196
(]}                                          JAN        R    2                  8 1      both        Levels 3    and    Levels 4            how            we're going              to  be 2      looking at the          aggregate of              findings.                I think              I've 3      just discussed for Level 4 how that would be done.                                                And 4      we're going to          do exactly the same kind of process                                        --
4 5      it's        always  been in      our          -- you              knew,      we've always 6      talked about        this, but we're                going to try                        to further 7      discuss it        and document            the appr; ch that                            we've been 8      using for        assessing the              --
sort            of the aggregate                of 9      multiple Level 3 or multiple Level 4 findings.
10                            So we    recognize the value.                                I've always g      11      recognized        it.        In clearly            communicating                        what    our t
12      intentions are, I don't                  know that we're always perfect 13      in how        we go    about it.              I'm not              sure that              we'll be 14      perfect        this    time.          But        we        wanted        to            take    the 15      opportunity in the face                  of the opportunities we've had 16      up here to discuss this with you to document what we're 17      doing and how we' re doing it a little bit better.                                                And l      18      so  we're looking to do that in the relative near term.
19      And    we'll certainly          be open            to discuss it                        at future 20      public meetings or answer                      any questions you might have
  $      21      tonight about that as well.
1      22
  .                                      MR. PETER BOWMAN:                          My name              is  Peter 5
4 l      23      Bowman.        I'm from New Haven.                  I worked as                    an engineer 24      for    some 30-odd years.                And one of the necessities for O                                          POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT              (800) 262-4102
 
197 MEETIll  RE  !I    TOli  UNITS 1 the job that I was always told was that one was able to 2 produce  simple and concise reports, easily understood.
3 And I don't think I would have lasted very long            in the 4 job ths" I was in if      I needed three pages of      acronyms 5 to produce the report.
6                  That enid, the      thing . hat    I'm --  that 7 bothers me about all this is that the 88 systems here -
8 -
I don't know what all the      systems are. But I think 9 it was Don Delcore      said that four of the      systems have 10 been  looked at  and the    NRC is saying,    well, they're g  11 loing to look at 15.
'J 12                  Well, taking    even the 15, what      I would 13 like to know and    what I would like to        get information 14 on are the    73 systems    that are not    being looked    at.
15 And in respect    to the safety of the plant, how do they 16 rate  with the systems that are being examined?          I mean 17 if  these are  lesser    safety level      or greater    safety 18 level or are    they picked    by random?      And I think    we 1  19 need to know what    these systems are and what        relation 20 they have to t.he systems that are being examined.
$  21                  MR. IMBRO:    Let  me try and answer that. j i  22 The way the systems were picked were -- we used several
[  23 criteria. First we used risk.        So we try and pick --
24 so  the more  important    systems in    tccms of  accident O                      POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEU, CT (800) 262-4102
 
198
:                                              MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS Q                                                            JANUARY 27, 1998 1                mitigation      functions                  so          that        systems      that    were 2                important from a risk standpoint.
3                                    Secondly, we tried to pick                                systems tnat 4                were more complex.                  We'd be more apt to                      find problems              ,
5                there. Also, we tried                    to pick systems                that had been 6                modified since original license or extensively modified 7                since  original license.                        Again,            more likely      to find 8                errors.
9                                    So          we used a                number of --          a number of 10                criteria    co try          and pick              a representative              sample of 4
g          11                systems that were significant.
U 12                                    Further,                the fact that                Sargent & Lundy 13                has looked at      15 and              we've looked at                  some, you      also 14                have to understand that NU has looked at all of                                        the 88 15                systems. And so          the 15-system overlay on top                            of that 16                was to assess      the NU review                        of all        88 systems.      So, 1            17                clearly, as Dr. Travers-said, if we fir.d that there are 18                -- if the systems we look at have significant problems, I,        19                then  that may        indicate that                        we expand time      scope and 20                look at other things that NU did.                                  So this was a sample
  $          21                approach, in a sense,                  although it's a rather extensive i
  .          22                sample    because          15      systems              were        looked    at    rather 1
l          23                thoroughly and pieces of other systems as well.
24                                    But, again, you know, NU,                                thro 6gh their A
POST REPORTING SERVICE RAMDEN, CT                    (800) 262-4.'02
 
i 1
i 199
,                                                                                  MSETIN  R    ! II  TO!JE UNITS 1                  --          usf r.g        the  word  CMP.      That's    the  Configuration 2                  Management Plan                    -- has    gone back and        they themselves 3                  have looked in a fashion at all the 88 systems.                                        And so 4                  by looking at                    15, we can use that as        a means to judge 5                  how effective their review was.                        And, again      if we find 6                  areas of weakness,                    then that    we. ald .0 .icate        perhaps, 7                  you          know, that wc need to lor,k              further.      But based --
8                  if the results, if                    the outcone of the Sargent                  & Lundy 9                  review and our oversight is relatively positive, then I 10                    think we're going to                    use that as a way        to extrapolate e                  11                    that reuult to the other systems.
12                                                      MR. BOWMAN:    That    seems very strange to 13                    me; I mean that                    the NRC, that you people          are mandated 14                    to look                  out for    public  health and      safety, but                    what 15                    you're saying to                    me is  that you're relying          on NU,                      a 16                    company which has decades                      of lying and obfuscation and 17                    keeping dark                    from the    public all their        mismanagement l                  18                    problems, and you're telling                        me that you're relying on 19                    their criteria to accept these systems.
20                                                      MR. IMBRO:      No.      I  don't think                        you
        $                  21                    understood.                    We're relying on our        oversight, both the l
        .                  22                    Sargent                  & Lundy    oversight and    our o ersight              of NU's I
l                  23                    review.                    So we're    really    relying    on their            review.
24                    We're doing our own independent look.                          And we're basing O                                                                            POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102
_ sam W'7P-9'
 
200
(])                                                                                      JAl  RY 2          98
,                                                                                                                                                                      i 2      out conclusions                      on that result, not                  what NU's telling 2      us.
3                                    MR.                BOWMAN:          Another  question.                Are 4      these 88 systems through                                the whole of the three?                      Are 5      the *bree Millstones included here or just                                          --
6                                    MR. IMBRO:                No , no.        That's just for --
7      that's just for Milletone 3.
8                                    MR. BOWMAN:                  Just for Millstone 3.
9                                    MR.                IMBRO:    Yes.        I think              something 10        comparable on Unit 2.
P                              11                                      MR. BOWMAN:                  Well, and we're hoping that W
12        Millstone 1 is                  never going                to open.        But what              about 13        Millstone 2?              How many systems are involved there?
14                                      MR. IMBRO:                  As I said        -- I don't              know          '
15        the  exact number there.                              I would say something like 12 16        to 14.      I don't really know.                                  I don't have it                on the 17        top of my head.
18                                      MR. BOWMAN:                  So do we --        it would seem, l-                            19        you know, to me I mean --
20                                      MR. IMBRO:                Same type of process, f                              21                                      MR. BOWMAN:                  As a reasonable                person, it 1g                              22        would    ceem          to          be          an  impossibility          to      meet          these
,        5
(                              23        schedules that NU keeps                              putting in the newspaper about 24        their opening dates.
O                            -
POST REPORTING SERVICE RAMDEN, CT                  (800) 262-4102
 
201
(])                                                                                JAli AR  2      98 1                MR. IMBRO:      Well, I mean we can't really 2 -- I think, you know --
3                MR. BOWMAN:      I mean wouldn't we --
4                MR. IMBRO:      We're not going    to let the 5 plant start up until the job --
6                MR. BOWMAN:        Yes. I  mean wouldn't the 7 public  be more reassured if the NRC came out and said, 8 "Well, you know, this      pie in the sky, this    stuff, and 9 there's  no way    in  the  world    that they  take        this 10 corrective action, have the        NRC do a proper inspection
, g                                                      11 and open  up at the dates      at which they say"?      I mean u
12 the  public would    be more    reassured    that the  NRC is 13 doing their job if they did this.
14                MR. IMBRO:      But we're not    --
15                MR. DOWMAN:      But I don't see that.
16                MR. IMBRO:  We're not really focused on 17 their schedule.      We're focused on getting the job done 18 and having the plants restarted safely, if they --
  !                                                      19                  MR. BOMWAN:    Well, I    understand that.
20 But it would seem --
h                                                      21                  DR. TRAVERS:      I  think that even      -- we 1        -
22 think and  the licensee would even        probably agree that t
[                                                      23 this is a challenging schedule, that --
24                  MR. BOWMAN:    Yes. But, see, the problem O                                                                            POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
202 MEETIN    R    !I    TO!1  UNITS 1  is -- you know, down in New Haven we don't get too much 2  news in the newspaper. But it would be nice to read in 3  the    newspaper that the NRC thinks the NU echedule is a 4  lot    of  baloney    and  a  more    proper  date  would  be 5  somewhere    in, you    know, five years      down the  road or 6  something like that, whatever it is.
l 7                      DR. TRAVERS:      I  think we would say that  t 8  if that's what we felt.          I mean it's --
9                      MR. BOWMAN:      Well,    we don't see  it in 10  the papers.
11                      $R. TRAVERS:        Well, no. I said if  we 12  felt that was true.
13                      MR. BOWMAN:      But    I mean all this aside, 14  all    this aside -- and I may          be off the subject of the 15  corrective action.        But    I think it was Carl      B. Morgan 16  who was    the father of      physics said    many, many  years 17  ago,    I forget, about 20        years ago, that the exposures 18  to workers      in  nuclear plants      would be  reduced by  a 5                                  19  factor    of ten.      But he said      if they  did that, these 20  things would      never operate.        And that's  the criteria
        $                                      21  you should be looking at now.            We should be looking at l                                  22  the exposure to the public, the exposure to the workers
_l                                          23  and to    reduce the radiation limits          to something where 24  these    plants would not be        able to operate.      And they POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
2 c .,
MEETIN                R          !I    TO!J              UNITS 1        can't operate            now economically with                                      all the radiation 2        that they're pouring out now on a normal basis.                                                              So all 3        I would say          is that we need the NRC -- and I hope that 4        when Dr.      Jackson comes here,                                  that we can                address the 5        question      of        exposures                        and    the              whole    question                  of 6        radiation safety with respect to nuclear power plants.
7                                  Thank you.
8                                  CHAIRPERSON LANNING:                                      Thank you.
9                                  MS. BOWMAN:                          Would              you have a            list of 10        the systems that                are not                    being looked at?                      Could                we p                        11        have such a list?
U 12                                  MP. , IMBRO:                      Sure.          Yes.
13                                  MS. BOWMAN:                          Would you please give it to 14        us?
15                                  Mk. IMBRO:                        Yes.        I'll talk to you after 16        the meeting.            I'll be happy to give it to y a.
17                                  Don?
l                        18                                  MR.              DELCORE:                          Those          are                DR's, 19        deficiencies,            for those                        of you          who are not              aware of 7
f                        20        them. A lot of deficiencies.
      $                        21                                  MR. IMBRO:                          Yes.            But I      think they're I                      22        preliminary.              So            why                don't      you          just,    you              know, g
l                        23        characterize them properly?
24                                  MR. DELCORE:                          Well,              let me say that the POST REPORTING SERVICE j                                                                    HAMDEN, CT                        (800) 262-4102
                                                                                                                                                          . . - .        -      a
 
204 MEETING RE: MILLOTONE UNITS
  -(])                                                                                  JANUARY 27, 1998 1            last report that I got from Sargent & Lundy, there were 2            855 preliminary and some 700 that were validated.
3                                              MR. IMBRO:                  But, again,            validated means 4            that they've                    gone through                      the Sargent &                Lundy review 5            process        and that                    bssed            on      information available                          to 6            Sargent & Lundy, Sargent                                    & Lundy management feels like 7            these are --                    these are              valid issues that                        need to            be 8            addressed.                      It        doesn't            mean that          they're          --
that
                              ')          they're        confirmed.                      They              need      to    look at            the        NU 10            response.            Again, these                      are issues that may have                            been p                        11            previously identified by                                    NU or they            may have --              they u
12            may not be issues at all.
13                                              MR. DELCORE:                    Okay.      And --
14                                              MR.      IMBRO:                So    they      need          additional 15            documentation.
16                                              MR.      DELCORE:                Right.        And assuming that 17            they were previously identified                                          from NU, that                doesn't 18            say that they're fixed.
i
_                        19                                              MR. IMBRO:                  But the --
20                                              MR. DELCORE:                    Obviously, because Sargent
  $                        21            & Lundy found them.
I.                      22                                              MR. IMBRO:                  Well,      but -- but they're in I
[                        23            the NU process                        to be fixed.                    And soma              of the --          and 24            depending            on          whether          or not              the      pre, post-restart, O                                                                              POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT                    (800) 262-4102
 
205 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS h                                                                      JAINARY 27, 1998 1 depending on how the screens have been, when they'll be 2 fixed.
3                    MR. DELCORE:      Right.        And  no  we're 4 assuming    that a good amount of them aren't going to be              '
5 fixed before start-up.
6                    MR. IMBRO:      I  don't really      know. I 7 mean, again, I think there's a screening process that's l                                              8 been established by        im. We've looked at          it. We've l
9 done inspections of it.        We agree with the process.          We 10 agree with the criteria for pre, post-restart.
p                                            11                    So    if    these    issues      involve    a  non-u n
V 12 conformance      with the    licensing    basis,      they will  be 13 fixed before restart.
14                    MR. DELCORE:      Okay.      In  the preliminary 15 --
or in the last report that I attended with Sargent &
16 Lundy,    again  855 I    think    were  initiated, 700        were 17 validated by Sargent & Lundy.
l                                            18                    MR. IMBRO:      Yes.
19                    MR. DELCORE:      And some 224 of those were 4
20 Level 3's and some 454 of those were Level 4's.
  $                                            21                    MR. IMBRO:    But,  again, you're talking 1
22 preliminary      DR's.      That's    what    --
the numbers    are 5
[                                            23 probably right.      I won't argue with the numbers.
24                    MR. DELCORE:      Well,      no. I'm just going O                                                                    POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT      (800) 262-4102
 
l                                  _.
206 Q                                                          A  AR    7    98 1    by their report.
l                                2                    MR. IMBRO:      That's    fine.      Okay. But, 3    again, they're preliminary.        They haven't      been  - they 4    haven't go a through the process yet.
5                    MR. DELCORE:      Okay.
6                    MR. IMBRO:    Okay.
7                    MR.                      And DELCORE:                if      you    look 8    categorically,    there  were    six particular        categorie, 9    that kind of jumped out at me out of the 855.
10                    MR. IMBRO:    Okay, g                            11                    MR. DELCORE:      Some  275      dealt  with 9
12    calculation errors, be it Level 3 or Level 4.              But they 13    dealt with calculation errors.        Some 100 of them dealt 14    with PNID  or  schematic errors      which    were    in ^1ved, 15    again Level 3 or Level 4.
16                    Isnd  I think    what's important        to point 17    out here, if you go down and look, there were about six 18    categories that kind of jump right out where there were
    !                            19    60, 70, 80 and    again 100 and 275 of      particular issues 20    that  essentially appeared      to be    the same,      such that
  ?                            21    Sargent  & Lundy, the NRC    and NU all      agreed t' hat they 1                            22    were categories in that area.
I J                              23                    MR. IMBRO:    Yes.
24                    MR. DELCORE:        So  that    seems    to  be POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102
 
207 JAl AR        98 l                                1 indicative of some programmatic issues.
2                  MR. IMBRO:      I  mean  we --      yeo. I 3 wouldn't disagree. I think --
4                  MR. DELCORE:    Okay.
5                  MR. IMBRO:      In fact,  I      think    we're 6 probably going to expand beyond those six because, like 7 I say, we              we ourselves and have --                        NU and Sargent        &
8 Lundy  ate sorting the data      in different ways.          And I 9 think  what    you  just  indicated  are        or  could  be 10 indicative of    areas where NU may have to do additional
: g.                11 work. I mean we may    decide that, you know, there's a u
12 negative    trend in this    area of there's        a trend where 13 there are a lot of calculational errors that, as you're 14 saying, sort of pop out rt you and say, " Hey, you know, 15 are there other things      that -- although the individual 16 problems    may themselves    not be safety    significant or 17 may not really affect the results of the calculation to 18 any significant    degree, it    still would      indicate that V
                ;              19 there  may be  additional    review we    need      to give  us f              20 additional    confidcace that there weren't problems wide
              $                21 in this area that are safety significant, 1
22                  DR. TRAVERS:      You are    talking      about j                    23 9lements of the corrective action process that is to be 24 conducted for any --
O                                  POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
208
({}                                          Ali AR        98 1                      MR. IMBRO      Yes.
2                      MR. DELCORE:    Well, let me address those 3    two issues. First    of all, we're talking about,        be it 4    four or fifteen systems, you        know, however you want to 5    look at it. It doesn't really make any difference.
6                      MR. IMBRO:    Well, it's 15, 7                      MR. DELCORE:      But we're    still talking 8    about safety-significant        and risk-significant systems.
9    Okay?  So any discrepancy associated with the licensing 10    basis, associated with the        incorrectness of a print or g                  11    a roadmap    or a  piping diagram is      significant because v
12    we're talking    about  15 systems    out  of 88    that  are 13    significant in terms of risk and safety.          You guys have 14    said that yourself.
15                      So how    can you legitimize      and say that 16    any  issue that's    discovered    by Sargent    & Lundy  and 17    verified by Northeast Utilities        or anybody else,    that 18    it's  a relatively --      how it  --
it's below regulatory
  !                  19    concern?
20                      I  mean I've    listened to    Marty Bowling f                  21    telling    us about that there Sust wasn't any real major k
22    problems. But,  you know,    that's not what    I read  in
  }                  23    these  documents.      There's    some  kind of    interesting 24    Level  3 issues in here about fuel and not doing safety O                                    POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
209 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1                            reviews  on reconstituted        fueli    that is    to say  that 2                            they've  taken out      the  fuel that    was expended  after 3                            three  cycles and replaced it with fuel and then didn't 4                            do  a safety review associated          with that new core.          I 5                            mean there's some pretty significant issues in here.
6                                              So what I'm saying to you is that I          --
7                                              MR. IMBRO:      Preliminary.
8                                              MR.      DELCORE:      Yes.    't
                                                                                . still  -- it's 9                            preliminary,    but    it's demonstrative of        a number    --
10                            there's  a thousand issues that Sargent            &  Lundy says g 11                            there's a problem with.        And NU has come back and said, d
12                            "We agree with 120 so far.          There's still 800 we've got 13                            to look at."
14                                              MR. IMBRO:      And    they will be looked at.
15                            I mean --
16                                              MR.      DELCORE:      But,  Gene,  even  you.
17                            yourself,    publicly have      said    that there's    a lot    of l 18                            issues here.
19                                              MR. IMBRO:      Well,    you know -- you know, 20                            a thousand is a large number.
$ 21                                              MR. DELCORE:        I don't think anybody that i 22                            I recogni::e  in this      room ever    expected that    we'd be l 23                            talking about a thousand DR's.
24                                              MR. IMBRO:      Well--
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT        (800) 262-4102
 
__        _ _ _  _ - - _ - - - . - - - . ~
210
(])                                              AI AR          98 1                            MR. DELCORE:    That  was just  not  the 2        realm of what we expected.
3                            MR. IMBRO:    But  --
4                            DR. TRAVERS:    Don, I think you're right.
5      And I think that's in some measure attributable to the 6        level of effort that's being applied here and the depth 7        of the review.
8                            MR. DELCORE:    I am --
9                            DR. TRAVERS:    (Indiscernible) experience 10        going      at these kinds of      reviews in this    fashion. So P            11        Level 4 -- lots of Level 4's, I agree with you.
0 12                            MR. DELCORE:    A substantial  number of 13        Level 3's.
14                            DR. TRAVERS:    Well --
15                            MR. DELCORE:    About    a third of them are 16        Level 3's.
17                            DR. TRAVERS:      But  let's -- let's  make l            18        sure we're      not  mischaracterizing the      situation _yet.
19        Those may, in        fact, all    be confirmed. Every one  of 20        them may be.      But they're not yet.
    $            21                            MR. DELCORE:    Right.
    .l          22                            DR. TRAVERS:    So    let's not -- let's not 5
l            23        lose sight of that.
24                            MR. DELCORE:    Okay.
O                                            POST REPORTING SERVICE RAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102
 
211 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()                                  JANUARY 27, 1998 1                        DR. TRAVERS:    The process  we've put in 2  place, it's going to be applied to all of these issues.
3                        MR. DELCORE:    Okay.
4                        DR. TRAVERS:    So that  we can at the end 5  of the day come before you and          the public and tell you 6  what happened.
7                        MR. DELCORE:    Okay.
8                        DR. TRAVERS:    But in  advance of  that, 9    let's not,      you  know --  let's  not reach  a  judgment 10    that's not warranted, at least at this point.
P  11                        MR. DELCORE:    Except  that if we look at V
12    the      six categories, I    think we can    reach a judgment,
  )
13    that categorically there are six          different issues that 14    seem to be      prevalent in either      the issues which  they 15  have        already resolved    between    them and  NU or  those 16  which they initiated to begin with.
17                        In other words, the    interpretation that l  18    I      got from Sargent & Lundy at    the meeting was that it 19    seems to be the same ratio of those six categories.
20                        DR. TRAVERS:    And you may be right. And O
. 21    I think Gene has sort of alluded to that.
l
=  22                        MR. DELCORE:    Okay.
5 l  23                        DR. TRAVERS:  And, again, I think there 24    are two paths for that.
O                              POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102
 
212 MEETIN  R    MI  TO!E UNITS 1                                        MR. DELCORE:    Okay.
2                                        DR. TRAVERS:    For    what could occur as a 3 result of that.                            One in what I'll call      the corrective 4 action  path.                            And that    is that    we don't  reach that 5 conclusion absent NU reaching the same conclusion.                                And 6 once they                          do, we expect their      corrective actions will 7 apply horizontally as well.
8                                        MR. DELCORE:    Okay.
9                                        DR. TRAVERS:      Now,  you  know, if  you 10 assess  that                          and you    find  that    it's working  right, 11 that's a good indication                            that, you know, their program-12 is going to pick up and apply the, you know, the extent O                                          .3 of condition criteria for --
14                                        MR. DELCORE:    Okay.      Now, let's put the 15 corrective action issue in perspective a little bit.
16                                        DR. TRAVERS:    Sure.
17                                        MR. DELCORE:    In May, the licensee said, l                                            18 "Here's  all the 50.54f issues.                              And I'm    ready for an 19 ICAVP."        And                      in  June, they    documented    an issue  of 20 backflow to the reactor water storage tank but didn't--
        $                                              21 June. It was some                          time in June      that they documented 1                                            22 that in a CR, put a --
l                                            23                                        DR. TRAVERS:    That was ours.
24                                        MR. DELCORE:    Excuse me?
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 j
 
l 213
()                                                                  JAl AR  2        98 1                                                          DR. TRAVERS:        1  think    that    was our 2                                        finding in our inspection.      No?
3                                                          MR. DELCORE:    No, no, no, no.        This was 4                                        in June.
5                                                          DR. TRAVERS:    A different one.                  I G                                                          MR. DELCORE:    Right. No. It's the same 7                                        issue.
8                                                          DR. TRAVERS:    No. This was a CR.              !
9                                                          MR  DELCORE:    CR. Okay. So they wrote 10                                        a CR in June, but    they wrote a Level 2 on          it and made 11                                        it- a restart issue. But  nothing was done about it at 12                                        Lll. Along  gave the out-of-scope ICAVP review            and it 13                                        found that issue. And NU wrote another CR because they 14                                        didn't know the first one Existed.          Okay?    So now we've 15                                        got  two  CR's on    that issue      and  there isn't      any --
16                                        anything  that anybody    can demonstrate that          they took 1
17                                        any action towards_ addressing that rather            significant 18                                        issue, at least if you would listen to the NRC say that                '
    !  19                                        that's a fairly significant _ssue, both with respect to 20                                        them  not being    able to  find it in      the CMP    and with
    $  21                                        respect to being outside      possible dosage lim.ts to the 1
1 22                                        public in terms of health and safety,
  -l    23                                                          So  fairly  significant        issue.        They 24                                        assign a Level 2. They don't  --
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
214 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()                          JANUARY 27, 1998 1                DR. TRA'fERS :  Sounds like --
2                MR. DELCORE:    Hmm?
3                DR. TRAVERS:    Sounds like    we're being 4 appropriately cr!.tical.
5                MR. DELCORE:    Well --
G                DR. TRAVERS:    You're    commenting on our 7 characterization.
8                MR. DELCORE:    Yes. But what I'm saying 9 is that  here  we have    something that    was assigned                a 10 Level 2 that probably should have        been a Level 1.              And Q  11 I've  listened to  a number    of meetings    uhereby we've 0
12 been  told in  the  public that    the corrective            action 13 program is a very    high quality and is a      good program.
14 I'm not absolutely convinced by any of what I have just 15 seen --
16                MR. IMBRO:    I don't think we've reached 17 that conclusion yet.
l  18                DR. TRAVERS:    We never --
    '9                MR  DELCORE:    Oh,  Okay.
20                MR. IMBRO:    I don't think we've said the
$  21 corrective action program is --
l  22                MR. DELCORE:    But    I'm very  concerned l  23 about that little fiasco, 24                MR. IMBRO:        We    still  have              two O                        POST REPORTING SERVICE RAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
j 215 MEETIli  R    I4ILI T0!J  UllITS 4
1                  inspections here.                                                                            l 2                                                  MR. DELCORE:      And more      importantly --
3                  yes.                But      I don't think      we're at    the point              that we 4                  ought                to be    conducting those        inspections yet,              Gene.
5                  When you have the problems that we just identified with 6                  regard to                  the corrective action,          I see no              reason for 7                  you            to be        conducting    a 40,500      inspection because              I 8                  don't              think      they're    ready    and  the    indications are 9                  they're                  not ready.      And so      I'm very    concerned about 10                    that.                  And I'm very concer W about the fact that much g    11                    of what is sitting here that ends up being validated by tf 12                    everybody                  isn't going      to    be fixed    until some            other 13                    outage                  down the    road and      that you're        accepting less 4
14                    than a                  first-class    final safety      analysis report              and 15                    license basis and information                        for individuals to go to i            16                    publications, to                    go to license        basis, to          go to    road 17                    maps,              to    go to    piping    diagrams,    to      go        to  wiring l  18                    diagrams and, in fact, find                        that this wire running                in 19                    this              tray is, in        fact, 2408B and        it's 2408A.              And I 20                    think                that that's      a very,    very important              issue with
        $    21                    regard                    to    corrective        maintenance,                preventive l
        . 22                    maintenance and troubleshooting.
I l  23                                                    MR. IMBRO:      I agree.
24                                                    MR. DELCORE:        Well,    then we should              be O                                                          POST REPORTING SERVICE Hl.MDEN, CT      (800) 262-4102
 
216 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()                            JANUARY 27, 1998 1 requiring them to fix every issue that is found.
2                              (Applause) 3                  DR. TRAVERS:    No.
4                  MR. IMBRO:
We're really      looking    at 5 that. Don.
6                  MR. DELCORE:    All of these.
7                  DR. TRAVERS:      No, no.      Don, the answer 8 is we are going      to require correction of every        one of 9 the findings that are      confirmed. The only differences 10 that    you may have with the way we're approaching it is g    11 that it's going to be done commensurate with the safety r                                                                            l 12 significance    of  the  issue.      And    that  equals    the 13 potential    for    some    relatively    minor    issues  being  '
14 carried    Jut    and    implemented,      And    that's  --
I 15 understand the issue.      I just want to make --
16                  MR. DELCORE:      Dr. Travers, your opinion 17 of  a significant                      and safety issue            commensurate with    '
18 safety issues    has    been nothing    like any    of us    that
  !    19 worked at Millstone and        any of this public, you      know, 20 understands. You need to work on that.
  $    21                  MR. IMBRO:    Yes, Ma'am?
I
  . 22                  MS. KAREN NORTON:      My name    is  Karen I
(    23 Norton. I live i., 7torra, (..7ecticut.        And my father 24 is an engineer.      And I think that I'm      not comfortable O                          POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102
 
l l
!                                                                                                    217 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1  with the idea that these safety concerns are -- will be 2  deemed                                    okay and fixable after restart.      I find that of 3  great concern.
4                                                  I also    want to    reiterate what  I think 5  was                                    brushed aside,  the comment    that Mr. Bowman made 6  that the Northeast                                    Utilities has great influence      over
      '/ what is being told by the media to the public.                                        They're 8  basically                                    presenting that      everything  is  going  very 9  smoothly                                    and that  the public    should expect  that the 10  plants are going                                    to be coming back on line.      I really
  $  11  do think it's crucial that some of the NRC concerns are t'
12  told to the                                    public and    that NU is  corrected on    that 13  issue that restart                                    will be imminent as      early as March 14  and April, 15                                                  Or are you saying that restart is        going 16  to happen in March and April?
17                                                  DR  TRAVERS:      Well, fundamentally,    let 18  me                          just agree with your major point.                And that is the
  . 19  communication of                                    where we stand    in our program. And f  20  this meeting tonight is                                      one evample, just one,    of the
  !  21  program that we've implemented                                        at Millstone. And it's I  22 g      rather extraordinary.                                      If  you're not familiar with it, l  23  I can just thumbt. ail sketch it for you.
24                                                    It includes not only these      meetings but POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102
 
_ ___ _- _ -- - - -    -_-    - .        . _  -      _ _ ~ _    _ - - - - -          . . - -      _ _ - .              _ _ _ - -
218
()                                                    Ali AR                  98 1 the conduct of our          working meetings in the daytime                                --
2 and there are numerous meetings of that sort -- that we 3 typically for    other plants across the                    country hold in 4 either the Regional NRC Office or in Headquarters.                                        But 5 we're holding    essentially all of them up                      here so that 6 people can sit in and attend and observe.
7                  So I      agree with              you. Millstone                is an 8 important issue        historically.            It's      important to                  the 9 people who    live      around here.                And    we're doing,                  yot 10 know,  what we    can      in terms        of extraordinary                  effort p                      11 relative    to what      we normally            do to      try to        bring an U
12 understanding -- sometimes we don't do that good a job.
13 You know.      I'm not      that great at              it occasionally,                    I 14 know, and sometimes we don't -- we don't communicate as 15 clearly as we could or should.                      But we're trying.                    We 16 really are.
17                  And      some of        the concerns          you've heard 18 expressed tonight are just                the kinds of concerns that,
  .                      19 you know,    we're incorporating                into our      assessment of f                      20 where Millstone stands.                We do          that in meetings                  with O
  ,                      21 the Commission as well.                We transcribe those.                      We put
  !                      22 them  right on the Internet so that people can get them g
l                      23 very  quickly.          We    put      all        of  these  preliminary 24 discrepancy reports on the                Internet as soon as they're O.                                              POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
l 219 M UAR                                  98 1        identified.                  You    can            go            to          Sargent      &  Lundy            or 2        Parsons.com              or whatever it is                            -- we can          give you the 3        address -- and get it on the day they're issued.
4                                    So    we        --
even                if we      speak      in      some 5        acronyms at times -- and you can quis us on that.                                                          We'd 6        be    glad to try            and explain those.                                    And given        -- and 7        even          in the face of the very complex issues that we're 8        talking              about,    we    are            trying                    to    communicate those 9        things.
10                                    MS    NORTON:                  I        applaud you for that ind Q                    11        I appreciate that.                But on the other hand,                                    in terms of t!
12        communication, as long                        as this topic got opened                                up, I 13        just want to say one more thing.
14                                    DR. TRAVERS:                      Sure.
15                                    MS. NORTON:                          The            last  time      that            I 16        attended this              meeting I pointed out                                    that somebody was 17        trying to say that the -- I don't know --                                                  the level of l                    18        citizen participation -- that the amount of people that 19        were here              showed that not that                                people were interested 20        except a few -- few -- I can't remember the going --
  $                    21                                    DR. TRAVERS:                      Not from us.
1
  .                    22                                    MS    NORTON:                  -- the                  going term.        But my I
l                    23        point -- I'll finish.                          I'll be brief -- is                            that these 24        meetings              are always        held, I                      think, in            Waterford and POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
220 MEETIN  R    I    Tol4E UNITS 1 that  - and that people all over the state are actually 2 concerned about this issue.        And if you  had meetings, 3 say,  in Hartford,    I think    that  you'd find  that you 4
wouldn't be able to leave for a whole weekend.
5                  DR. TRAVERS:      Well,  we  have    to  be 6 practical, too. I mean we're very limited in our --
7                  MS. NORTON:    Well, I just wanted to make l      8 that pointi that it would be great to have a meating in 9 a  more central point in    the state, not    that I -- I'm
(      10 not  complaining    about these    meetings. I think    we g  11 should have them and more.
12                  CHAIRPERSON    LANNING:    Could    I    just 13 elaborate  just'a    litt'' bit    on your  statement about 14 referring  safety-significant      issues?      All  safety-15 significant    issues  will  be  corrected  prior    to the 16 restart of the unit.
17                  MS. NORTON:    I want  all issues    to be l  18 corrected.
19 CHAIRPERSON LANNING:      Well, all    issues 20 will not be    corrected prior    to restart. And    that's O
    . 21 Susan's question. And  I want to get to    that question l
g 22 tonight because it's very important        that we all have a l  23 common understanding of the backlog and what's going to 24 be deferred and the basis for that.
O                        POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102
 
221 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O                              3^"u^av 27, 1598 1                    DR. TRAVERS:                It's important.
2                    CHAIRPERSON                LANNING:                It's      very 3  important.
4                    So we're still on ICAVP, Joe.
5                    MR. JOE BESADE:              Joe Besade, Waterford, 6 Connecticut.        I hope this          is a proper          question under 7 this ICAVP, on the come-along investigations                              that were 8 going on at Millstone and CY.
9                    CHAIRPERSON LANNING:                  Can't talk          about 10 them.
$  11                    MR. BESADE:          Won't talk about them.
V 12                    CHAIRPERSON LANNING:                  Don't know          about 13 them.
14                    MR  BESADE:              Okay.      I have          a notebook 15 here.        When  was the        last          time  any  member of            the 16 governing body of the NRC who makes up the rules suited 17 up      in PC's  and a    bubble        suit and        went into          a high 18 radiation area such            as the        dry well or            the Unit    l's 19 Hell's Kitchen to see the existing true picture?
f  20                    CHAIRPERSON LANNING                  Ou?; region -- just 0
. 21 a Unit 1 question?
-l  22 g                        DR. TRAVERS:              Are you talking about                the
[  23 Commissioners or --
24                    MR.        BESADE:              Anybody          from      your O                            POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT        (800) 262-4102
 
i 222
()                                          JA!T AR        98 1          department.
2                            DR. TRAVERS:      Our    Seniors    go    into 3          radiation areas frequently.
4                            MR. BESADE:    Your Seniors?
5                            CRAIRPERSON      LANNING:        The    Resident 6          Inspectors.
7                            DR. TRAVERS:    Yes.
8                            MR. BESADE:      Anyone been in        there in a 9          bubble suit under those conditions?
10                              CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Yes, sir, 11 d
$                                      MR. BESADE:    How far back?
U 12 CHAIRPERSON LANNING:        You know,    time --
13            years, 14                              MR. BESADE:    Okay. Well, recently.        On 15            any of  the three units, any one of the -- even the two 16            that you're  not even    thinking about starting          up just 17            yet. Any  one  of them    should  be    constantly being l      18            monitored by  people in your. position        to oversee these
      -19            people who have been lying to us all these yaars.                They f      20            have a track record of not being honorable people.
O
,      21                              The other thing is I asked a question of k
g      22            Mr. Travers EP    far as having --      when Chairman Jackson l      23            comes  to Waterford, for her      to -- if      it was possible 24            for  a member of    the CRC to    go as an      observer to see O                                      POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102
 
223 MEETING RE: MILLST0!!E UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1 what really    takes place and not            the propaganda pushed 2 out by these NU --
3                  DR. TRAVERS:          Yes. I    don't have    an 4 answer  for you,      but    I ' .L 1    just  speculate    on  the 5 practical    difficulties it might -- but I will -- I owe 6 you an answer and I'll --
7                  MR. BESADE:          I'd uppreciate      it  veiy 8 much.
9                  Also, as far          as the transcript      of this 10 evening's proceedings,      I'd like a copy            for myself and g                                    11 I'd  also like    a    copy  issued        to  the    CRC  for  our s
12 documentation room.
O                            13                  CHAIRPERSON          LANNING:      We  already have 14 CRC  on our  distribution list            for this    transcript of 15 these public meetings.
16                  MR. BESADE:        s  see,    And if    I'm not 17 mistaken, they haven't been getting them as they should
{                                  18 be. I received one.      And I had another            one that I was 19 promised by    Mr. Travers.          I haven't received that one.
20 So I -- I'd like to have one for my nuclear room.                  So -
f                                    21 - I know you tried      to tell me that you were            trying to 1
22 cut  expenses. Well, it seems as though that I've been l                                  23 told  that    the    --
you      people      have    a  budget    of 24 approximately a half a billion dollars.                Am I correct?
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT          (800) 262-4102 s
 
224 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS Q                          JANUARY 27, 1998 1                MR. IMBRO:    That's the whole agency.
2                CHAIRPERSON LANNING:      That's the    whole 3 NRC budget.
4                MR. BESADE-    Okay. Now, you had --
5                CHAIRPERSON    LANNING:    I'll  get  you a 6 copy. I'll get you a copy.
7                MR. BESADE:    Thank you. Thank you, sir.
8                CHAIRPERSON LANNING:    I'll be glad to.
9                MR. BESADE:    All right.
10                CHAIRPERSON LANNING:    All right.
p  11                A VOICE:  We'll pay for it ourselves.
V 12                MR. BESADE:    Thank you.
13                CHAIRPERSON LANNING:    All right. Can we 14 now move into the general question -- no?      Okay.
15                A VOICE:  A real very quick question.
16                CHAIRPERSON    LANNING:    This  lady right 17 over here is next. She hasn't asked a question.
l  18                MS, GERILYN WINSLOW:      Gerilyn  Winslow, 19 Waterford, Connecticut. I'm  concerned about the ICAVP 20 just  in the numbers alone. And I guess Don's given me
  $  21 some  numbers and you    seem to have    a little different
  ,  22 opinion  on the numbers. But 699 DR'e  validated is a I
(_  23 lot. And we  were told  like me aths ago    that NU  was 24 going to do such a good    job fixing the plant up before POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i
l l
k
 
225 MEETING RE: MILLSTGNE UNITS
()                                                              JANUARY 27, 1998 1 anybody even inspected                                        1*., that they probably      wouldn't 2 find anything wrong.                                          And now they've found up        to 700 3 just in those four systems.
4 I'm concerned about that and I'd like to 5 see  the scope                              expanded            because    I'm very    concerned.
6 I've done some math and                                          we've got like 15.000 possible 7 discrepancies                      in the other 84 systems.                        That's a lot.
8 And my children go to school across the street from the 9 plant,      right                            across            the      street. And      I'm  not 10 comfortable with those numbers, p  11                                    MR. IMBRO:                      I mean I    can -- I certainly U
12 can understand where                                        you're coming from.      But    I think 13 you  have    to                  wait,                    though, until      the  process      gets 14 corpleted.      We're going to look at -- right now, you're 15 right. The 699 number I                                      think came from a January        13 36 report  --
17                                    MS, WINSLOW:                      Yes.
l  18                                    MR. IMBRO:                      -- from Sargent & Lundy.
19                                    MS. WINSLOW:                      Yes.
20                                    MR. IMLRO:                        There are more    now. Okay?
    $  21 I mean, as I                said -- but you have to think                                  u.a t -- of 1
    -  22 all those 975 or however many there are, only 100-and -
E l      -
I  forget what it said                                        -- 120 have    gone through the 24 process.      And of the 120, only -- only 54 issues have -
O#
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226
(}                                                      Jali  R            8 1 - are  issues that were not previously identified by NU 2 or , quote, real issues.                                    But, again, looking at              -- if 3 you look at those,                                there's really one          non-conformance 4 out of those 54 with the licensing basis.
5                            MS. WINSLOW:                        I have 224      --
6                            MR. IMBRO:                        But, again --
7                            MS.                    WINSLOW:      --
outside of the design 8 basis.
9                            MR. IMBRO:                      I guess we haven't explained i
10 it  properly.                                  But    look    at    the  validated          DR'e.
g    11 Validated            Dx's,                      again,    are    things  that          have  gone U
12 through the S&L precess but have not been yet responded 13 to by NU.            The 224 which -- refers to what category?
14                            MS. WINSLOW:                        Level 3. Level 3.
15                            MR. IMBRO:                      Again, like I say --
16                            MS.                    WINSLOW:        Does not      meet licensing 17 and design basis --
l  18                              MR. IMBRO:                      Yes.
19                              MS,                  WINSLOW:        --
but    is intended          to 20 perform --
  $    21                              MR.                    IMBRO:      Yes.      Yes.          But,    again,      i i
    -  22 those are preliminary.                                    Those have to        be responded by t
I l  23 NU.
24                              MS. WINSLOW:                        Well, I want            ther,all --
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227
()                                                                                    A    R          98 1                              well,                        what about    --
I have    a  concern then    because 2                              they're going to go into Mode 4 next week and start the 3                              plant                        up. And now        none    of    these  have even    been 4                              validated                                                        make any yet. That doesn't                      sense. That 5                              plant is going to be turned to the On switch next week.
6                                                                    MR. IMBRO:        Well, Mode 4    --
7                                                                    MS.      WINSLOW:        And    these DR's    haven't 8                              even been validated --
9                                                                    MR. IMBRO:        Mode 4 is not thE On switch.
10                                                                    MS, WINSLOW:          -- yet.
'g      11                                                                    MR.      IMBRO:      And    if  thert are    issues U
12                                there that                    --
13                                                                    MS. WINSLsW:          Once it's    on, they're not 14                              going to turn it off.
15                                                                    MR. IMBRO:        Mode 4 is not On.      Mode 4 is 16                                  --
17                                                                    MS,      WINSLOW:          It's heated    up  to 200 l    18                                degrees.
19                                                                    MR. IMBRO:        Yes,    200. Okay. But    it's 20                                not -- but,-you know, it's not critical.                                  Again,  it's--
O
  ,    21                                                                    MS. WINSLOW:          When you live a mile away, 1
  . 22                                on is on and 200 degrees is on.
5 l    23                                                                    A VOICE:          CY wasn't critical      when they 24                                had the nitrogen (indiscernible - not at microphone).
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT          (800) 262-4102 1
 
228 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS g                          JANUARY 27, 1998 1                MS. WII! SLOW:    Yes. Just my  point is 2 they should upand the scope.        Okay?
3                MR. IMBRO:      I understand. I understand.
4                MS, WINSLOW:      Rather than go through all 5 this number thing back and forth.
6                MR. IMBRO:      I understand it's an area of 7 concern.
8                MS. WINSLOW:      The  scope should    be --
9 tnere's  84 systems  that might      have 700    things wrong 10 with each one of them.      That's my opinion.
Q  11                Thank you.
9 12                MR. IMBRO:        I understand    what  you're 13 saying.
14                A VOICE:      It    sounds like it's    open to 15 me.
16                MR. IMBRO:      Rosemary?
17                MS. BASSILAKIS:        Rosemary  Bassilakis l  18 again. I just  want to say that        you keep saying    that 19 these are preliminary.      We  need to wait,    we need    to f  20 wait, we need to wait.
      $  21                You  need    to    understand    that  we're a l  22
      . community that's    been asleep      for a  long time    and we 5
l  23 have been rocked awake.      And we'r-      . going  to wait.
24 We're going to speak --
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT      (800) 262-4102 i
 
229
(])                                                                      Al RY              9 8 1                                    MR. IMBRO:        I  never thought      you were 2                  anleep.      You're right on the ball.
3                                    MS. BASSILAKIS:        We're going to speak as 4                  soon  as we think there      may be an          issue because we're 5                  not going to wait until the end.
6                                    MR. IMBRO:  Good.
7                                    MS, BASSILAKIS:        Because in the end, you 8                  may  decide that everything in            hunky dory and they can 9                turn    the switch on.      And at that          point, our cries of 10                            increasing the scope      will fall        on deaf ears.      So  we 0                  11                            need to be vocal and we need to be hard now, 12                                              MR. IMBRO:          We're    not      I'm not 13                            c'aggesting you not comment.            Please.
14                                              MS,  BASSILAKIS: .How          many times    did I 15                            hear the word " preliminary" tonight?
16                                              MR. IMBRO:    But they are preliminary, 17                                              DR. TRAVERS:        They are.
l l                  18                                              MS, BASSILAKIS:        I know.      But you n ,d -
  ;                  19                          -
but you're also saying that we need to wait, f                  20                                              MR. IMBRO:    Well,        we need to wait until o
  ,                  21                            the process --
1
;                    22                                              MS. BASSILAKIS:        And    we need to let you l                  23                          know that we're not comfortable with that.
24                                              MR. IMBRO:    Okay,      I understand that.
O'                                                                  POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT        (800) 262-4102
 
230
()                                                      Ali R    2          98 1                                          MS. BASSILAKIS:            So  are you  going to 2 increase the scope?
3                                          MR. IMBRO:      Based on what          we know now, 4 no.                But              with,    you    know        --
there's    still  more 5 evaluation that needs to be done.
6                                          MS, BASSILAKIS:            Okay 7                                          CHAIRPERSON LANNING:              Susan?
8                                          MR. IMBRO:      Let To.a come up.          He's been 9 waiting a while.
10                                          MR. McCORMACK:          This    is quick. Again,
;g      11 we had this DPUC business about                                      Millstone being in the
! 0 12 rate    base and                          us ratepayers          are    paying at  least 25 13 million d 11ars a month in excess of replacement power 14 costs.                            It's very crucial.
15                                          In the DPUC document, it says the              ICAVP 16 program would be finished by January 15.                                        Is it?
17                                          MR. IMBRO:      No.
18                                          MR. McCORMACK:          Any expectation      of when
  !    19 this program will be wrapped up between Sargent & Lundy
  -f    20 and NU                            and the verifications, the              preliminaries and a G
  ,    21 Sargent & Lundy report?                                Any estimated date for Sargent I    22 g        & Lundy's report?
l    23                                          MR. IMBRO:    Oh, gosh.          I'd say some time 24  in the end of February.
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      \1
 
231 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1                                                        MR. McCORMACK:          End of February.      Okay.
2 Sc at least                                        --
3                                                        MR. IMBRO:    That would be my guess.
4                                                        MR. McCORMACK:            So  at least  six weeks 5 past the date here.                                            Okay.        Thanks.
6                                                        CHAIRPERSON LANNING:            Okay 7                                                        MR. IMBRO:    Other questions?
8                                                        CHAIRPERSON          LANNING:    Susan. This is 9 the good one, though.                                            This is a good one.          I'm excited 10  about this one.
$    11                                                          MS. PERRY        LUXTON:      God,    this  is U
12  ridiculous, isn't it?
13                                                          Let's    see.          A  question I    have is  --
14  okay.        Now, I want to talk about reasonable                                                assurance.
    -15  My understanding                                            of the regulatory          structure is based 16  on  the                              fact that              NU  follows          rules and  procedures.
17  Right?                    This is the process question of ICAVP.
I    18                                                          MR. IMBRO:      Okay.
19                                                          MS. PERRY    LUXTON:        So NU  follows rules 20  and procedures.                                          And    you have to -- because          you can't O
,    21  be everywhere                                          and  you can't          do  100 percent    of  the b
=      22 systems, you're                                          only going to          do a certain    amount of I
l      23 the  systems.                                          So you are          trusting this    process with 24 '
Joent & Lundy and NU agreeing to the -- now there's a O                                                                POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT          (800) 262-4102
 
232 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS ggg                            JANUARY 27, 1998 1 word you used.      Not validated.                                                              But when NU agrees to -
2 - when they negotiate --
3                  MR. IMBRO:                                                    Confir. DR.
4                    MS. PERRY                                                  LUXTON:                Yes. They confirm 5 the DR. Okay.      Well, my question is                                                                  if you have this 6 many deficiencies in these 50                                                              or but maybe 15 systems, 7 whatever you say, what                                        I need for you                              to -- if    we're 8 assuming that you have a similarly aggressive review of 9 other  systems,    wouldn't you                                                          find        at  least as    many 10 problems as you found in the four systems or, you know, g    11 with the boundary 15?
U 12                    But my                            question is                                      how can    you assume 13 they're  not  --
wait a                                                  minute.                  I  wrote it    down.
14 Wouldn't you find at                        least as many problems?                                                  And how 15 can  the  NRC say    that                                            those                  problems would        not  be 16 safety-significant?                        Because                                          if      you  found    as  many 17 problems wrong in      those systems as                                                                you are in      these,
{    18 you  can't  assume      --
you can't                              tell  us,    you can't 19 reasonably    assure                that                                        they            wouldn't        be  safety-20 significant, even those may be mostly                                                                      majority 4, of a 21 4. The others may not.
: k. 22                    MR. IMBRO:                                                    Well, again,                you know,      if 5
l    23  there are --
24                    MS. PERRY LUXTON:                                                                You can't  --
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT                                                    (800) 262-4102
 
233
()                                        JAlf  RY 2      98 1                  MR. IMBRO:                -- Level 4 problems and they 2 seem to indicate a trend, then we're going to ask NU to 3 expand the scope in some areas.
4                  MS,              PERRY LUXTON:        I  know that. But 5 that's not    what I'm asking, though, Gene.                        I'm saying 6 you can't assure me reasonably --
7                  MR. IMBRO:                I    can't assure you      of 100 8 percent unless I                  look at everything.        And even  then, 9 I'm  not    sure            that      I couldn't    miss    something. So 10 there's no way -- if you want 100-percent assurance --
$  11                    DR. TRAVERS:                But  if I could jutt chime U
12 in  for '    moment?                In  the absence --      take the sample 13 systems that we've looked at, 15.
14                    MS. PERRY LUXTON:                  Right.
15                    DR.              TRAVERS:        In    the    absence  of 16 identified s!gnificant findings                      in those systems, even 17 if  you find a lot of minor calculational errors and so l  18 on and so forth, rather                  than projected in the        fashion
. 19 you've just done --
20                    MS. PERRY LUXTON:                  Right.
C
. 21                    MR.            IMBRO:    --
the findings that we're k
=  22 seeing thus far would have                  you reach just the opposite 5
l  23 conclusion in        that we looked very,                  very thoroughly at 24 those systems that                  we've looked at and        we didn't find O                                    POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN. CT (800) 262-4102 l
l
 
234
()                                                              A    R              8 1 significant issues.                                      We  didn't.      And despite the      fact 2 that you're finding --
3                                                  MC. PERRY LUXTON:          But you can't say to 4 me that              you wculdn't                          in those other        systems, though,    ,
5 Dr. Travers.
6                                                  DR. TRAVERS:      No. But --
7                                                  MS, PERRY LUXTON:        In these, you didn't.
8                                                  DR. TRAVERS:      No, no.      I agree. I'm not 9 saying --
10                                                    MS. PERRY LUXTON:        Right?    I mean just--
g    11                                                    DR. TRAVERS:          I'm  not  saying    you U
12  couldn't                    possibly.                  What    I'm saying is        that based on 13  what we always do in our                                        sample reviews -- and this is l
14  an extraordinary sample.                                        It's a very large sample          for
      ,  what  we would                                    normally    do to      confirm    this kind    of 16  issue.
17                                                    MS, PERRY LUXTON:        Mm-hmm.
l    18                                                    DR. TRAVERS:      Based      on a very    --
it's 19  not 100                percent, but it's                          a very --      we view it    as a 20  very  extensive                                    effort.        It's costing      millions    and 0
  ,    21  millions.                            It's involving, what, a hundred or so people 1
  =    22  at Sargent & Lundy --
5 l    23                                                    MR. IMBRO:    Yes.
24                                                  DR. TRAVERS:        --
doing,    you    know,
(~
    \>                                                          POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT      (800) 262-4102
 
235 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()                                                                                      JANUARY 27, 1998 1 detailed, detailed                                                              reviews. We're looking    to, in the 2 way  we developed                                                            the    program, say    that even  though 3 we're only looking                                                              at samples, we're going to        look at 4 them so thoroughly that                                                                it's going to give us      a sense 5 of whether there's sign .'icant issues elsewhere.                                                                    If we 6 started  to identify even a few Level l's or Level 2's, 7 you know, this is the indication that you might need to 8 and, in fact, should look elsewhere.
9                                                                        MS.        PERRY    LUXTON:    But  the point    --
10 okay. Well, this is                                                                -- another thing    is the process
$    11 that  you guys have set                                                                up from the    very beginning is y
{}  12 even if you find l's                                                                and 2's, you give NU    the ability 13 to pencil away the l's and 2's.
14                                                                        DR. TRAVERS:          No , no, no.
15                                                                        MS. PERRY        LUXTON:    They  just d'    that 16 with  the CR                                                that they                supposedly didn't    know about.
17 You  guys came out                                                            --
remember? -- and    said thac they l    18 hadn't found it.                                                              You found it.      Then, all cf a sudden, 6
f    19 two weeks later we read in the paper they said they did 20 find it but they couldn't remember                                                                    that they found it.
o
. 21 But they did find it.                                                                You know?    Now, all of c sudden, b
    -22  that  was a                                        Level                        1.      But  now  suddenly  it's  not g
l    23 anything.                      It's                                        a level low,      low level, because    they 24 did find it but they can't remember that they found it.
O                                                                                  POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
    .                                                                                                                                _J
 
236 MEETIN    RE    I    TO1E UNITS 1 But now they did find it.
2                That makes it sound like very strange to 3 us in the  public. It    sounds like NU doing    their own 4 business that they used to do.      How could they have not 5 known they wrote    a CR on the    thing?    Then they  still 6 haven't fixed  the CR.      They  still haven't    even done 7 anything to correct    it. I mean it    really Emells,    I 8 think. Doesn't it?    Kind of?
9                All  right.      Let's  go on  to the  next 10 thing. What wao my original question that you wouldn't
$    11 let me ask?  I forgot, for crying out loud.
32                A VOICE:    It's time to go home, gang.
13                MS, PERRY    LUXTON:    What was it?    _ What 14 was that question?    I mean I was serious about that.        I 15 have no idea what it was, 16                  CHAIRPERSON LALNING:      We were talking --
17 you had the corrective action --
l  18                  MS. PERRY LUETON:      Right. The wheel.
19                  CHAIRPERSON LANNING:        -- wheel with all 20 the spokes.
O
,  21                  MS. PERRY LUXTON:      Yes?
b 22                  CHAIRPERSON    LANNING:      And    you  were
_l  23 asking about enforcement.
24                  MS, PERRY LUXTON:      Enforcement. Right.
O                      POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 m                                                      __
 
237 lll                                                                      JAT R          98 1                        CHAIRPERSON                                        LANNING:      All    of  those 2 issues around the spoke                                              of that wheel are      things that 3 are -- will        be considered for evaluating how                                            well the 4 corrective action process is working.
5                        MS, PERRY LUXTON:                                        Right.
6                        CHAIRPERSON                                        LANNING:      Now, the    whole 7 objective here is to evaluate the process and                                                  see that      ,
8 it  is        working                  effectively                        to  identify    and resolve      ,
9 deficiencies.          Okay.                                      That's the whole --
10                        MS.                                        PERRY    LUXTON:        Don't      say
$    11 deficiencies.          You mean like -- deficiencies not in his U
g 12 deficiency category.
13                        CHAIRPERSON                                          LANNING:        Not      his 14 deficiency.        Yes.
15                        MS. PERRY                                        LUXTON:    You  mean, you know, 16 problems.
17                        CHAIRPERSON                                      LANNING:      That's    a  good l    18 point.
7 19                        MS. PERRY LUXTON:                                          Yes. Don't use that 20  terminology.        Like problems.
$    21                          CHAIRPERSON                                        LANNING:          Prob' ems.
I g    22  Problems.        Okay?
3 l    23                          MS. PERRY LUXTON:                                      Problems, yes.
24                          CHAIRPERSON                                      LANNING:      For example,    I O                                                  POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
238 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O                                                          3^"u^av 27 1998 1 want  to illustrate                                the  point.              We    requested NU    to 2 provide us                                in a 50 54f letter,              Eemand for Information 3 letter, two lists.                                One list was the restart list.
4                                              MS, PERRY LUXTON:              Right.
5                                              CRAIPPERSON            LANNING:      And the    second 6 list is the deferred list                                --
7                                              MS. PERRY LUXTON:              Right.      Okay.
8                                              CHAIRPERSON            LANNING:              of their 9 process.                    And -- and the process for putting a problem 10 on one or the other list.                                    Okay?
P      11                                              MS. PERRY LUXTON:              Mm-hmm, b
12                                              CHAIRPERSON LANNING:              Now, we    have been
    .\
13 inspecting the deferred list.                                              We've looked at each of l          14 those items on                                that deferred list              to check to    ensure 15 that it is not safety-significant and to ensure that it 16 should not be or the restart list.
17                                              Now, the first review                we did, we    found l      18 some of those items and they were moved over.
    ;      19                                              MS. PERRY LUXTON:              Moved c /er to where?
f      20 Deferred?
21                                              CHAIRPERSON              LANNING:      No.      To  the 3
22 restart list.
l      23                                              MS. PERRY LUXTON:              Okay.
24                                              CHAIRPERSON              LANNING:    Okay?    Now, just O                                                        POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT              (800) 262-4102
  ~
t                                                                                                            9
 
239 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1 this month, on the 9th I think it is, they submitted to 2 us another list, an updated list of things that's going 3 to be deferred.
4                                                MS. PERRY LUXTON:  Okay.
5                                                CHAIRPERSON LANNING:    Okay?
6                                                MS. PERRY LUXTON:  The 9th of January?
7                                                CHAIRPERSON LANNING:    Yes.
8                                                MS. PERRY LUXTON:  January 9.
9                                                CHAIRPERSON  LANNING:  And    I think that 10 number as it stood on the 9th is clmost 5,000 items.
R. 11                                                MS. PERRY LUXTON:  Oh.
I%~
!    12                                                CHAIRPERSON LANNING:    So that's why this l
O 13 is important for us to understand --
14                                                MS. PERRY LUXTON:  Oh, my God, i
15                                                CHAIRPERSON  LANNING:    --
what  that 16 means.
17                                                MS. PERRY LUXTON:    Yes. That's    right.
l  18 Because before it was                                    --
I thought it was    3,000 items 19 at the -- 5,000 are going to be deferred?
20                                                CHAIRPERSON  LANNING:        That  is    the O
21 proposal and --
22                                                MS, PERRY  LUXTON:    And you have      to --
1 l  23  they have to run that by you?
24                                                CHAIRPERSON LANNING:    Right.      And we're POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 I
 
240 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
{}                                                                                                  JANUARY 27, 1998                          .s 1 looking                                                  at that                          list. Yes. Yes. And  we're also 2 looking at the process                                                                            they're using to put it      on the 3 list, as I've already said.                                                                            Okay?
4                                                                                        So if start-up occurred        today -- I said 5 if, a big if --
6                                                                                        MS. PERRY LUXTON:      All right.
7                                                                                        CHAIRPERSON LANNING:        -- it's  possible 8 that there would be 5,000 items that would need to be -
1 9 - that oill be fixed at some future date.
10                                                                                        MS,  PERRY LUXTON:        L 1ht. But  who g    11 assures us that you make sure that taey get them fixed?
U 12 Because that has been a problem with you in the past.
13                                                                                        CHAIRPERSON LANNING:        You do. You  do.
14 Right here.
15                                                                                        MS, PERRY LUXTON:      Oh, my God.
16                                                                                        CHAIRPERSON LANNING:        And you  read our 17 Inspection                                                                          Reports. W- tell    you what we    do, what we 18 found and so forth.                                                                            But --
i I
  . 19                                                                                        MS. PERRY LUXTON:      But how -- do we have 20 a list of those 5,000 items?                                                                              How do we know --
  $    21                                                                                        CHAIRPERSON LANNING:        Yes.
1
  . 22                                                                                        MS. PERRY LUXTON:      You haven't given      us 5
l    23 a list.
24                                                                                        CHAIRPERSON    LANNING:        They're in  the f
    \-                                                                                              POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
241
(}}                            AIkRY          8 1 Waterford Library.      And,  you know,    it's  a stack    of 2 paper that high.
3                MS, PERRY LUXTON:      Oh, my gosh. That's 4 going to take an enormous amount of work to keep an eye 5 on you guys.
6                CHAIRPERSON LANNING:      Well, it  takes an 7
enormouc amount of work for us to review those deferred 8 lists to ensure  there'n nothing safety-significant          in 9 there that's going to be deferred.      Okay?
10                MS, PERRY LUXTON:    All right, p  11                CHAIRPERSON LANNING:      Now, that list  --
0 12                MS. PERRY LUXTON:    That's a new --
13                CHAIRPERSON LANNING:      -- will  continue 14 to grow maybe before restart ever occurs.        Okay?
15                MS,    PERRY  LUXTON:      I  don't  know if 16 that's acceptable to the public.
17                CHAIRPERSON    LANNING:    Well,  I'll    --
l  18 that's  the reason    it's  important that    we have  this 19 conversation.
20                MS, PERRY LUXTON:    I know    it. It's too
$  21 bad it's at 12:00 at night and nobody's here.
1
. 22                CHAIRPERSON LANNING:      And we understand.
E l  23 Well, maybe next time --
24                MS. PERRY LUXTON:    We might want to talk O                        I-OST REPORTING SERVICS HAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102 i
 
242 MEETIN                      RE                                  I    TOliE UNITS 1  about that again next time.
2                  CHAIRPERSON LANNING:                                                          --
we should start 3  off with --
4                  MS. PERRY LUXTON:                                                        I think so.
5                  CHAIRPERSON LANNING:                                                          --
the corrective 6  action process and start                                                      talking about the backlog and 7  --
8                  MS, PERRY LUXTON:                                                        And then you can talk 9  about the new spoke                wheel that you said it's                                                going to 10  be a new restart  --
P  11                  CHAIRPERSON LANNING:                                                          Restart Assessment e
U 12  Plan.
13                  MS.        PERRY                                                LUXTON:      Restart Assessment 14  Plan. We should talk about that, too, at the next one.
15                  CHAIRPERSON LANNING:                                                          Yes.      Well, we're 16  just -- what  that is is an                                                        update of the seal        items,
: 17. the stuff we've been inspecting all along.
[  18                  MS. PERRY LUXTON:                                                        Right.      Right, 19                  CHAIRPERSON                                                        LANNING:        So    we've  been 20  closing some of those.                                          We're doing our inspections.
$  21                  MS. PERRY                                                      LUXTON:      So    that    would      be i,  22  appropriate to talk about that at the next meeting.
5 l  23                  CHAIRPERSON                                                        LANNING:          It  certainly 24  would.
O                        POST REPORTING SER7 ICE HAMDEN, CT                                                        (800) 262-4102
 
243 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
(])                                                                                                            JANUARY 27, 1998 1                                                                                              MS. PERRY LUXTON:      Right.
2                                                                                              CHAIRPERSON LANNING:      But we're going te 3 have it available for you beforehand in the library --
4                                                                                              MS. PERRY LUXTON:      Okay.
5                                                                                              CHAIRPERSON LANNING:                if you'd like 6 to get a copy of that.
7                                                                                              MS. PERRY LUXTON:      All right.          Okay.      '
8                                                                                              CHAIRPERSON LANNING:          Okay?      Does    that 9 help?
10                                                                                                MS  PERRY LUXTON:    Yes,        That's --
lg      11                                                                                                CHAIRPERSON LANNING:      Good.
'N 12                                                                                                MS, PERRY LUXTON:      That's        very helpful.
13    Disconcertioq, but helpful.
14                                                                                                CHAIRPERSON LANNING:          I understand.        I 15    can appreciate that.
16                                                                                                MS. PERRY LUXTON:      Yes.        Okay.
17                                                                                                CHAIRPERSON LANNING:      All right.
l  18                                                                                                MS. PERRY LUXTON:      Thank you.
19                                                                                                CHAIRPERSON      LANNING:            Any    other 20    questions?
    $  21                                                                                                MS. PERRY LUXTON:      Not that I can think 1
    . 22    of right now, except where's my pillow?                                                                                          You know?
E l    23                                                                                                CHAIRPERSON LANNING:          Does anyone        else 24  have any questions?
POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT      (800) 262-4102
 
244 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()                            JANUARY 27, 1998 1                  MS. NORTON:    Wnen  is the    next public 2 hearing?
3                  CHAIRPERSON LANNING:      I'm sorry?
4                  MS. PERRY LUXTON:      When    is the  next 5 public meeting?
6                  MS. NORTON:    What  is the    next public 7 hearing, meeting?
8                  DR. TRAVERS:      The  next      there are a 9 host of meetings upcoming.        But the next meeting      with 10 the  Commission,    for  example, is    February    the 19th, g    11 10:00, I think. I think it's in the morning.
U 12                  A VOICE:  9:00.
t 13                  DR. TRAVERS:    9:00?
14                  A VOICE:  I think it's 9:00, 15                  DR. TRAVERS:    February 19    in Rockville, 16 Maryland. And, of course,      we will --    we haven't yet 17 scheduled our next    evening meeting. But we'll do that 18 shortly.
4    19                  A  VOICE:    I  just would    add that  the 20 Chairman is going to be here on the 2nd of February.
  $    21                  CHAIRPERSON      LANNING:        I'm    punchy, b
  =    22 Right. The 2nd of February.
I l    23                  DR. TRAVERS:    And  there's going to be a 24 public  question-and-answer session, I        think, at 7:00, O                        POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT    (800) 262-4102 j
 
a M 245 MEETIln RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
()                                                                  JANUARY 27, 1998 1 something like that.
l l
2                                                        CHAIRPERSON LANNING:            7:00 at the          high 3 school auditorium.
4                                                        Okay. Last question of the              evening --
5 or the morning,                                          First of the morning.
6                                                        MR. NAZAR:    The      question I        have goes 7 directly to what Gene                                            was just talking about,                  And my 8 question is                          given that                    Commissioner, the head                of the                          I 9 Commission                is coming, what is going to be, if you know 10 now,  the general format of the public meeting? Is she
_g  11 expecting just general questions? Is this going to be u
12 more  like                a                            Congressional      hearing      where      one_ just 13 presents, you know, typed papers, et cetera?
14                                                        DR. TRAVERS:    About        an hour, hour and a 15 half,        But she's                                      going to -- my understanding              is that 16 she's going to start                                            off with a brief statement,                  And 17 we have --                she has solicited -- I                                      think we've done it
{  18 for her -- questions from several groups in advance of
  . 19 this.      The Citizens Regulatory Commission, for example, f  20 NEAC.                The Friends                                of  Millstone        and CAN,      Citizens o
  . 21 Awareness Network.                                            Were  solicited -- if they wouldn't 1
  -  22 mind -- and they have                                            provided us with three questions E
l_  23 for the              Chairman.                                And  she's expected            to start      off 24 early in the                                          meeting with addressing some              of those or O                                                              POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i
 
246 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS
(])-                          JANU%RY 27, 1998 1 all of those questions.
Following that, the expectation                                        is that she will respond to questions from the audience.
4                MR. NAZAR:                                Do you know          if there's any 5 structure or organization that's going to be put on the 6 meeting to avoid this becoming an argument about the --
7 either  the  economic            viability                      of    nuclear power- or 8 desirability of nuclear power or whether radiation                                        has 9 any  finite limit, lower                                limit at which          you don't see 10 effects any  more, et            cetera, et                      cetera?          Which  are g    11 valid  issues, but    that's peripheral                                  to the      issue of W
12 whether Millstone is ready to restart.
13                CHAIRPERSON                                LANNING:      Well,      if you've 14 seen the Chairman in public forums before --
15                MR. NAZAR:                                Never met her,
: l.      16                  CHAIRPERSON                              LANNING:          --
she's  very 17 effective at keeping questions                                on track to the subject 18 at hand. So  I think it's important to her that you're 4    19 from the public and she'll try to respond to the public 20 on Millstone.
  $    21                  Okay.              That's it?                      Good night        to all.
                                                                                                          ]
b
  =    22 Thank you for coming.
5 l    23                  (Whereupon, the meeting was adjourned at 24 12:12 A.M.)
O                          POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102
 
CERTIFICATE O
I, Paul Landman, a Notary Public in and for the State of Connecticut, and President of Post Reporting Service, Inc., do hereby certify that, to the best of my knowledge, the foregoing record is a correct and verbatim transcription of the audio recording made of the proceeding hereinbefore set forth.
I further certify that neither the audio operator nor I are attorney or counsel for, nor directly related to or employed by any of the parties to the action and/or proceeding in which this action is taken; and further, that neither g            the audio operator nor I are a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel d
('          employed by the parties thereto, or financially interested in any way in the outcome of this action or proceeding.
In witness whereof I have hereunto set my hand and do so attest to the above. this 11 thday of Feb. ,19 9a l                                                                    On A -
                                                                            ~
2- -
b  --
a                                                                              President m    ~
-l ,
1-I POST REPORTING SERVICE IL 1-800-262-4102}}

Latest revision as of 23:28, 31 December 2020

Transcript of 980127 Public Meeting in Waterford,Ct Re Northeast Utilities,Millstone Units 1,2 & 3.Pp 1-246
ML20203E399
Person / Time
Site: Millstone  Dominion icon.png
Issue date: 01/27/1998
From:
NRC
To:
References
NUDOCS 9802270040
Download: ML20203E399 (247)


Text

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VERBATIM PROCEEDINGS NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION PUBLIC MEETING IN TH3 MATTER OF NORTHEAST UTILITIES, MILLSTONE UNITS 1, 2 AND 3 e

$ 4 gr JANUARY 27, 1998 r

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2 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

. JANUARY 27, 1998 1 . . . Verbatim Proceedings of the Public 2 Meeting of the United States Nuclear Regulatory 3 Commission in the matter of Northeast Utilities, 4 Millstone Units 1, 2 and 3, held January 27, 1998, at 5 7:00 P.M., at the Waterford Town Hall, 15 Rope Ferry 6 noad, Waterford, Connecticut. . .

7 8

9

-10 R 11 1

-. 12 13 CHAIRPERSON WAYNE LANNING: Good 14 evening, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to a meeting 15 between the NRC and you, the public. The purpose of 16 this meeting is to inform you of NRC activities ongoing 17 at Millstone with regard to the restart of a ullt out l 18 there and also to receive your input and feedback on 19 the restart process.

20 My name is Wayne Lanning. I'm Deputy

[ 21 Director of the Special Projects Office. I oversee the 1 22 inspection activities.

.I

g 23 With me tonight at the table, at the far 24 _end tonight is Gene Imbro. Gene is in charge of b%s- POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

- - . - . ~ _- _- ..- - - .- . - . - . - . -

l l

3 JAN kR

(]) 98 1 overseeing the Independent Corrective Action 2 Verification Process. Next to him is Helen Pastis.

3 Helen has been -- she's the team leader for a recent 4 assessment of the Employee Cc ' erns Program. And 5 she'll be making a short presentation later tonight.

6 Next to me is Phil McKee. Phil is 7 Deputy Director also for overseeing licensing. He has 8 additional responsibility of overseeing the activities 9 with regard to the Safety-Conscious Work Environment.

10 We have in the audience the Senior e 11 Resident Inspectors for the Millstone units. We also R

~

12 have Jacque Durr, the branch chief, back there in the O 13 corner and other NRC folks in the audience tonight.

14 Tonight's meeting is being transcribed.

15 So I would ack that when you ask questions or make 16 commente, that you identify yourself.

17 I'll plan on taking a break at 9:00 P.M.

l 18 -tonight. And as we have established previously in our 6

! 19 format, we will take questions and comments on the 20 subject that we have just discussed. And I'll ask that

$ 21 you limit your questions and comments to that topic.

1 22 And we'll also have at the end of the session a general 5

l 23 question-and-answer session where you may ask any 24 question on any topic.

Q POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

_ _ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ . _ . _ - . . _ . _ ~ _ ..

4 Q kR 98 1 Let me just quickly outline the agenda 2 for tonight. I'm going to start it off by talking 3 about some of the forthcoming meetings. And then I a will summarize the meeting that we had with Northeast 5 Utilities on January the 14th.

6 Following my presentation, it will be 7 Phil McKee. And Phil will summarize the Safety 8 Conscious Work Environment activities and introduce 9 Helen. And then Gene will follow with a status of the 10 Independent Corrective Action Verification Program, g 11 And that will be followed by the general question-and-c 12 answer session, beginning with questions on our 13 Inspection Report, the last one that we issued. That's 14 No. 207.

15 Just joining us is Bill Travers. Bill 16 is the Director of the Special Projects Office.

17 Welcome.

$ 18 DR. BILL 7 RAVERS: Thanks.

19 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: So let me just 20 quickly list some meetings that may be of interest to f 21 you that's coming P' in the very near future. We'll b 22 start by tomorrow,  ; morrow morning at 9:00 there's a k

l 23 Tier 2, Tier 3, Independent Corrective Action -- ICAVP 24 inspection exit. That's at the Training Center. And d POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

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5 M R 98 1 that's open for pub'ic observation.

2 On Thursday the 29th in King of Prussia, 3 we're having a meeting to discuss operator training and 4 cmergency preparedness issues. And then on February 5 the 2nd, the Chairman of the Nuclear Regulatory 6 Commission, Chairman Jackson, will visit Millstone.

7 She will hold a press conference on the afternoon of 8 the 2nd and then meet with the public that evening at 9 7:00 P.M. across the street at the high school.

10 Then on February 19, we'll have a 11 Commission meeting. This is an established quarterly

~

12 status Commission meeting to discuss the status of O 13 Millstone activities. And that will be held in 14 Rockville, Maryland. And the time of that is starting 15 at 9:00 in the morning.

16 I want to turn now and just give you a 17 Readers Digest version, if you will, of the meeting we l 18 had with Northeast Utilities on January 14. At that 19 meeting was Sam Collins. And Mr. Collins is the 20 Director of Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation. So O

21 he had come to the site for a tour and participation in 1

- 22 those meetings.

E 23 want to summarize essentially what

[ I 24 Northeast told us regarding station readiness for POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 26.2-4102

6 MEETIN I TO14E UNITS 1 restart and then talk a little bit about the milestone 2 schedule that they provided to us.

3 Mr. Kenyon provided the station 4 readiness overview where he talked about the key issues 5 and the status of those. And they're the same ones 6 ve'Ne discussed previously. He talked to whether or 7 not their evaluation of each of these key issues were 8 progressing satisfactorily or not. If not, when they 9 wi.L1 be or projected to be satisfactory.

10 So I'll just list a couple of these and g 11 go down the list. High standards was an objective.

9 q 12 This involved leadership and regulatory compliance.

V 13 The regulatory compliance had not met the satisfactory 14 level of performance. and he indicated that he 15 expected that Unit 3 would at least be in ccmpliance by 16 February.

17 He talked about the strong nuclear l 18 safety philosophy. He talked about the oversight 19 committees, the-QA function, emergency planning, rad 20 protection, procedure quality and adherence.

I 21 Oversight and the Nuclear Safety

'1 22 Advisory Board was viewud as being satisfactory.

,g 23 Emergency planning had not reach Satisfactory at that l

i 24 meeting but expected to be more successful by the end POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

, 7

^i MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS i( ) JANUARY 27, 1998 1 of January. Radiation protection was judged to be 2 satisfactory. And procedure quality and adherence was 3 judged to be satisfactory for Unit 3.

4 He talked a little bit about self-5 assessments and their effectiveness and just primarily 6 addressed the nuclear oversight functioc And that was 7 projected to be satisfactory by the end of January.

4 8 He also talked about corrective actions, 9 corrective action process. Aad that whs judged to be 10 satisfactory by the end of January.

g 11 Another objective was to restore the d

12 licensing and design bases. In other words, 13 configuration management process and program. He 14 exracted to restore the licensing basis and design 15 basis for Unit 3 in February.

16 Employee Concerns, this really talks to l! 17 the Safety-Conscious Work Environment. That had not l 18 at'.p'*ed a level of satisfaction that he expected, but 19 he expected significant progress to be made in that 20 arena by the end of February.

f 21 Excellence in operations. These are "i

- 22 things like work control, training, operator readiness E

l 23 and security. Essentially, that objective, that area 24 was to be ready by January and early February for Unit POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

8 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 1 3.

2 He talked about their schedule for being 3 ready to restart Unit 3. And I'll just mention just a 4 couple of significant milestones that we discussed 5 during in that meeting.

1 6 The first one is Mode 4. Mode 4 is a 7 condition that's specified by the specifications. It's j 8 essentially as you return to power operation, there's a j 9 series of modes you go through as defined by the 10 license. Mode 4 is the first one that you go to out of 11 a snutdown, refueling outage or Mode 5.

12 And it's this mode where most safety 13 systems must be operable and in -- you know, all the 14 work completed on those systems. Go that Mode 4 status 15 was projected to be in early February, 16 He also indicated that the corrective 17 action inspection -- this is the NRC corrective action l 18 inspection. We call it the 40500 inspection because 5

l 19 that's the inspection number. They projected at that 20 meeting that they'd be ready for that inspection in

$ 21 early February. Now, this is the same inspection that

i. 22 had been scheduled for January and had been delayed.

I l 23 So, we have since received 24 correspondence indicating that they are, indeed, ready O\#

POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

9 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

.(]) JANUARY 27, 1998-1 for the 9orrective action inspection. And that's 2 slated to start on site February the 9th.

3 Following the 40500 inepection is the 4 operation of safety team inspection. This is the team 5 inspection, one of the last inspections that is done to 6 judge the readiness for start-up and continued safe 7 operation. They projected being ready for that l 8 inspection in February. And we really have not set a 9 firm date for that inspection. They have yet to tell 10 us that they are ready for the OSTI inspection.

$ 11 So that was just about the highlights of 9

1 12 our meeting, our last meeting with Northeast regarding 13 the restart of Millstone.

14 Just_for your information, though, che i 15 staff will be issuing another version of. our Restart 16 Assessment Plan. I expect that to be issued next week.

17 And we'll have copies of-that available in the library

-l 18 for you for your review, if you so choose.

19 So I think that covers- most of the i 20 administrative status of our meeting with Northeast

$ 21 Utilities.

1

- 22 Are there questions on anything that I l 23 said?

24 DR. TRAVERS: Let me just add one thing POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

10 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

(]) JANUARY 27, 1998 1 to what you said.

2 One of the things, just to add to what 3 Wayne said about the status information that we send 4 now to the Commission on a monthly basis, that status 5 paper will include our best estimate for planning 6 purposes of the schedule we're on for completing the 7 activities that we need to complete prior to any 8 Commission consideration of a restart.

9 That schedule we always add this 10 caveat --

is necessarily driven by the completion by g 11 the licensee of the activities that they need to e

r- 12 complete. You may know, I'm sure, that the schedule

(_g/

13 that has been proj ected for restart has at times 14 changed over the past months. And that's changed 15 because of the licensee's need to continue to complete 16 actions that are necessary to support the possible 17 restart vote by the Commission.

{ 18 What we do in our Commission papers as 19 an important element in our planning and our l l

20 utilization effectively of the limited resources that U

21 we have is try to estimate based on what the licensee k 22

tells us is their schedule for effectively completing 5

l 23 corrective actions, the schedule that we can complete 24 our verification activities in.

POST REPORTING SERVICE EAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

11 h

=

kRY 98

-1 So that paper will provide an estimate 2 of a schedule. But, again, it's tied fundamentally to 3 the completion by the licensee of the corrective 4 actions that they need to complete.

5 MR. DONALD DELCORE: No turning on?

l

, 6 Donald Delcore, Uncasville, Connecticut.

7 Mr. Lanning, you indicated that one of the last 8 inspections to be done will be tne OSTI. So I have a 9 couple ot questions related to that.

10 It seems to me that there are a number

$ 11 of issues, both on the Restart Assessment Plan -- some 12 indications I can give you would be the ICAVP 13 deficiencies and the satisfactory completion of all 14 those issues that were identified in the discovery by 15 the licensee and in the performance of the ICAVP itself 16 by Sargent & Lundy and whatever the findings were of 17 the review done on the in-scope and out-of-scope l 18 systems by the NRC.

19 And it seems to me an enormous amount of 20 things would have to accomplished by, ac you indicated, '

$ 21 mid-February to the end of February with regard to the 7 - 22 Restart Assessment Plan prior to this OSTI, I would 5

l 23 think, if the OSTI is one of the last tests that you 24 want to conduct. And I would think that we would have POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

12

() AN R 8 1 all these license basis issues and the like and, of 2 course, most of the spokes of the Restart Assessment '

3 Plan wheel completed. Yes?

4 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: I agree with you 5 that there's a lot of work to be completed prior to the beginning of that inspection, 6

i 7 MR. DELCORE: Well, but what I'm asking 8 you is are those items scheduled to be completed prior 9 to you beginning the OSTI?

10 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: I would guess that g 11 not all items will be completed prior to beginning the e

12 OSTI inspection.

13 MR. DELCORE: Could you give me some 14 idea of those items that are not going to be completed 15 prior to the OSTI?

L l

16 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: I think one of-the 17 most important things probably is completion of all the i 18 corrective actions for various things that need to be 19 done.

I don't expect all of those corrective actions 20 to have been completed prior to the OSTI.

I do expect

$ 21 the major modifications, for example, major corrections

!- 22 to processes, the corrective action process itself, for 5-

[ 23 example, to be working and effective prior to starting 24 the OSTI.

POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

13 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS l -()- JANUARY 27, 1998 1

e 1 DR. TRAVERS: Maybe I can add -- if I I

> 2 add one thing,' Don, specifically to your question. One 3 of the things in looking at our project planning

! 4 schedule, it looks as-though we'll be completing --

5 about the same time we complete-the OSTI will be-the

6 final step or the final team inspection of our 7 Independent Corrective Action Verification Program.

4 8 And that final' inspection, one of a series of team 9 inspections, really, is designed to take a look at the 10 adequacy and effectiveness of the corrective actions 9 11 that have resulted from findings of ICAVP. And we're 4 g

~

12 going to sample CMP corrective actions as well.

3

!~ 13 But, in large measure, the OSTI --- the i

14 decision for conduct of OSTI is that most of what needs

, 15 to be done is done, at least for the purposes of

16 assessing operational readiness, the transition that.

17 the utility has made into being capable of running the i

.j- 18 plant, support the operations, maintenance support to 19 operations, engineering support to operations,

_f- 20 management programs, those kinds of things all need to

'$ 21 be completed to the point where they can be assessed in

! .[

22 our Operational Safety Team Inspections. Very i 5.

g 23 important, a j 24 MR. DELCORE: Well, you know, the thing l POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

.;~ . . - _ . _ _ . . _ - _ _

14

() JA UAR 8 1 that's bothering me about this whole issue is that 2 we're talking about an inspecticn that's verifying the 1 3 license basis and 6esign basis of four systems out of 4 88. And I'm not comfortable that at this point the 5 resolutions to the deficiencies which have been found 6 hmie even been addressed, 7 In other words, the approach or the 8 resolution to the issue that was discovered either by 9 Sargent & Lundy or NU in either of their independent 10 discoveries. I'm concerned that we're almost putting i

lg 11 the cart before the horse, if you will, because we U

12 don't have -- seem to have a complete license basis and 13 we're talsing about reviewing a licensee before that 14 process is complete, 15 And, frankly, I'm very concerned about 16 it and I'm concerned about it because Shirley Jackson 17 stood before us or the press in this very room and l 18 indicated that all of that was going to be resolved 19 prior to any start-ap activities. I view a heat-up 20 into a Mode-4 to be a start-up activity, certainly a

$ 21 prelude to it, certainly are dependent upon various l 22

aspects of those systems with regard to the safety 5

l 23 environment and risk assessment associated with that 24 plan, O' POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l

w N

15 J AR 8 i So I view what's going on here from the 2 indications you' re giving to me that we're very, very, 3 very premature in moving forward when the licensee ,

4 looks like they're still rushing to finish things up.

5 So, you know, I'm suggesting here a-6 little bit of restraint and a little bit of relaxation 7 in the schedule to allow them to get the issues done so l 8 that we can see that there's resolution to CMP /ICAVP 9 issues, that there is resolution to corrective action 10 items and not having the majority of the corrective L

!.g 11 action items done, but to have them all done.

.s 12 Now, I recogni::e that there are certain 13 aspects of a nuclear plant with which you never have 14 -all your corrective action items done. But, certainly, 15 they've had quite a while to correct the problems. And 16 I would expect that they would-be at a level where we 17 would only be dealing with relatively new corrective l 18 action -items and that all of the ones that have gone on 19 for the last two or three years would be all fixed.

20 And I think that Shirley Jackson led I 21 most of uc to believe that. And I don't think we're 1

- 22 really seeing that take place. And I'm very concerned I'

[ 23 about it.

24 Thank you.

POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

16 A R 8 1 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Any other 2 questions? Okay. If there are no other questions, 3 I'll turn --

4 MS, SUSAN PERRY LUXTON: I have a 5 question. I have a question, 6 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: All right.

7 MS. PERRY LUXTON: New microphones, I 8 notice. Let's all celebrate that we've got new 9 microphones this month.

10 Susan Perry Luxton, Great Neck Road, lg 11 Waterford, Connecticut. I'm talking about the re-- I U

12 have a question about the restart assessment wheel, the 13 restart assessment wheel. Did you say that these will 14 be resolved before restart, all of these spokes on tha 15 wheel?

16 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: I think what I 17 said was that there -- all those spokes on the wheel l 18 provide input into assessing the Corrective Action 19 Program, that completion of various activities around 20 that wheel and how -- you know, how well they fix o

. 21 defit.iencies, how well they respond to enforcement

!= 22 items, how well they respond to employee concerns all 5

[ 23 go inte determining how well the corrective action 24 process is working.

O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

17 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 1 MS, PERRY LUXTON: Okay. Then help me 2 out on enforcement. Enforcement, this spoke of this 3 wheel,-I'm thinking of it in terms of you doing 4 enforcement actions on violations that have -- they 5 have accrued in the last year. For instance, they just 6 .got a 2.1 million-dollar fine up -- for violations up 7 until December 1996. The violations from December 1996 8 to now, say, are they going to be -- is enforcement --

9 are they going -- are those violations going to be, you 10 know, enfccced? Are they going to have to pay

^

g- 11 penalties or whatever they have to do before restart?

U 12 Will those violations be resolved? Is that part of it?

O 13 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: That's part of it.

. 14 MS, PERRY LUXTON: Will they be 15 . resolved?

16 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: The plan is to 17 issue as many -- whatever violations that we can before 11 8 restart. -But what that wheel really talks to is .

8

.. - 19 corrective actions for those violations.

20 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Right.

f 21 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: In other words, 22 we're looking at the corrective actions implementcd as

-g l 23 a result that caused that violation. That's what we're 24 looking at in assessing the corrective action process.

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i 18 MEETIN3 RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 1 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Right. So I am 2 assuming that those corrective actions for the 3

violations that have occurred between December 1996 and 4 now will be resolved by restart.

5 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: They may not be 6 resolved before restart. There may be some enforcement 7 that has not taken place before restart that would take 8 place after restart.

9 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Well, why is that if 10 that's one of the spokes on the restart assessment --

g 11 corrective action on the Restart Assessment Plan? Why W

12 wouldn't they be resolved before restart?

13 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: What will be 14 resolved before restart -- the enforcement takes on 15 issuing a Notice of Violation, for example --

16 MS, PEPRY LUXTON: Right.

17 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: --

having an

$ 18 enforcement conference and then determining what action 19 that the staff will take based on that enforcement 20 conference and the inspection activity as part of :tt

$ 21 and so on.

b 22 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay.

l 23 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Some of that 4 enforcement activity may occur after the restart of POST REPORTING SERVICE RAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

19 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 1 this -- of the first Lndt. What I do expect Northeast 2 to do is at least address the corrective actions for 3 those violations. They know --

4 MS. PERRY LUXTON: What do you mean by 5 address? What do you mean by address than? Explain 6 address. '

7 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Implement 8 corrective actions for those identified violations.

9 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay. Not just a 10 plan of implementation. You're talking about an actual g 11 implementation of the corrective action.

U 12 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Particularly if it 13 affects the operability of a system, for example.

14 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Right. So some of 15 them -- and you're saying particularly as it affects 36; the operability. Some of them may be deferred, you're 17 saying, if they don't --

18 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Some of the l

. 19 enforcement actions may not be completed. In other 20 words, the staff may not nave issueo all violstions f 21 prior to restart, for example.

1

= 22 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Your staff?

l 23 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Our staff.

24 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Nell, okay.

POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

20 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

()

JANUARY 27, 1998 1 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: I mean it's --

2 because we continue to inspect and there could be 3 violations identified, you know --

4 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Oh, within the next 5 two weeks, you're saying.

6 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Sure.

7 MS. PERRY LUXTON: I know. But there>u 8 heen violations that have occurred within the last year 9 that you know they've happened. They've occurred.

10 They should have the corrective action plans already

g 11 together and the correction action should have been U

12 resolved. And you should have given them violations 13 already. Right? So what about them? Aren't they 14 going to be resolved before restart?

15 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Well, the first 16 part of that I think I agree with. That being that the 17 violations are known to Northeast Utilities and they l 18 should be implementing corrective actions in response 19 to those violations. The violations are part of an 20 enfcrcement program. We have a process, procedures on

" o

, 21 how that takes place and we're following that process.

22 And what I'm saying for the third time is that there s

l 23 may be enforcement that takes place after restart.

24 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay. But what I'm s POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 Lib

21 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 1 saying for the first time, Mr. Lanning, is in the 2 Government Accounting Office Report of May 1997 --

3 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Now, wait a 4 minute. Let me interrupt you a second now.

5 MS, PERRY LUXTON: Yes.

6 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: You're getting off-7 in an area that I didn't talk about in my introductory 8 comments. And I --

9 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Oh, but I --

i 10 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: General questions R 11 --

5 12 MS, PERRY LUXTON: No. It's about 13 enforcement, though. It's about making sure that 14 enforcement does take place.

15 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: I didn't talk 16 about enforcement in my --

17 MS, PERRY LUXTON: But that's part of l 18 the Restart Assessment Plan, though. Isn't it?

19 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: But can we -- can 20 I defer that to the general question-and-answer

$ 21 session? Can we get on --

1

- 22 MS. PERRY LUXTON: All right. All 5

l 23 right. But I won't forget that one. I'll think about 24 that.

POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

22 JAl R 98 1 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: I won't let you 2 forget. I won't let you forget.

3 MS, PERRY LUXTON: All right.

4 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: We'll cover it.

5 MS. PERRY LUXTON: All right. Okay.

6 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: But I would like 7 to get on with the agenda.

8 MS. PERRY LUXTON: I thought it was part 9 --

I mean I didn't mean to delay. I just thought it 10 was a part of this, the Restart Assessment Plan. But I g 11 can wait, d

12 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Okay.

13 Okay.

14 MR. DELCORE: Yes. You know, I 15 understand you want 'o move along. But I certainly 16 don't want to be restricted in my ability to ask you 17 questions about the particular areas. And we've been l 18 through this before and I think we could probably 19 dismiss some of the rhetoric back and forth here.

20 One of the issues that you just f 21 discussed was the rests t assessment wheel and you I. 22 indicated that there was going to be an upcoming change 5

l 23 to the wheel, some change or amendment to this --

24 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: No. A provision --

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23 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 1 MR. DELCORE: To the plan.

2 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: -- to the plan.

3 MR. DELCORE: Okay. Well, isn't the 4 plan that wheel that you --

5 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: No, it's not.

6 MR. DELCORE: Okay.

7 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: That wheel was my 8 attempt to help everybody understand how, for example, 9 corrective actions, the corrective action process, the 10 inputs that will be made into assessing how well that g 11 process is working, u

12 MR. DELCORE: Okay With regard to that 3

J 13 wheel, that plan, and the changes to that plan, I sat 14 in East Lyme a long time ago and I listened to a 15 presentation that you gave. And I know -- I sat in the 16 front row. And I asked an enormor.s amount of questions 17 with regard to whether all of those issues on that l 18 restart spoke were going to be corrected prior to the 19 restart of this unit. And you assured many of us in 20 this audience-, Mr. Lanning, that that was going to

$ 21 happen.

k 22- Now, you seem --

l 23 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Well, Mr. Delcore 24 --

O>

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24

() AN R 8 1 MR DELCORE: Wait a minute. Wait. Let 2 me finish, Let me finish.

3 And you seem to be backing away from l

4 that position. And I don't want to let you do that.

5 And so I want to remind the audience that that's what .

l 6 you agreed to. If we need to go get the transcript and 7 re-read that, we'll do that, if that's necessary, at 8 the next meeting.

9 (Applause) 10 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: That was my point g 11 exactly. If there is a transcript of that meeting --

9 12 MR. DELCORE: Okay.

13 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: then I won't 14 debate the issue with you.

15 Any other questions? Okay.

16 MR PHIL McKE' Good evening. What I'm 17 going to focus on tonight and talk about is efforts and l 18 activities involved with -- regarding Safety-Conscious 19 Work Envi.ronment and Employee Concerns Progrim.

20 And since our last meeting, I believe in

$ 21 December, some of our major activities involve the NRC 1

22 conducted a team evaluat'on and that included two weeks l 23 on site of looking at Employee Concerns Program, 24 aspects of the Safety-Conscious Work Environment and POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

25 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 1 also some of the activities and oversight that's being 2 done by Little Harbor Consultants. I won't get into 3 that. I'll -- after I tinish uith some remarks that 4 I'm going to make, Helen Pastis, the team leader, will 5 speak to that topic, give you a summary of the 6 inspection, the inspection findings.

7 What I'd like to talk about today is we 8 had a meeting earlier today and I think some of you 9 attended that. And the meeting is one of our periodic 10 reviews, periodic meetings between the NRC, Northeast g 11 and Little Harbor Consultants to discuss activities 0

12 going on, findings and status of where we are.

13 The meeting principally included a 14 presentation by Northeast Utilities and some of the 15 activities of Little Harbor Consultants. I'm going to 16 go through that fairly quickly, if I can here.

17 Northeast Utilities' presentation, most l 18 of their presentation focused on their measurements and 19 assessments and status of their assessments with regard 20 to their success criteria, O

, 21 And if I might briefly summarize,

! 22 Northeast has six success criteria. And I'm going to g

5 l 23 go through principally four of those. Two of them 24 include eventually where the employee oversight i

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26 i

() JANU R 2 98 1 organization makes a recommendation or concurs in the 2 -finding for restart. And, also, one of- their success 3 criteria is Little Harbor Consultants' finding.

4 Their principle four criteria that they 5 are measuring, they discussed each of those. And they 6 have, for lack of a better term, a grading system.

7 It's green, yellow and red. And I might' explain.

8 Their criteria for green is that .the success criteria 9 have been met. Yellow is that, although _it's-in the.

10 alert area, they feel that the success criteria has not E 11 been met. And red, of course, is problems and the 0-12 criteria is not met.

)~' 13 And among the four criteria, the first 14 criterion is the employees' willingness to raise l

15 concerns. Their consideration and assessment in that 16 area is that it is- green. It meets the success-4 17 criteria. In their presentation, they_. discussed a l [ 18 number of sub-elements, although they're more than what 19 they 're presented,'that they believe supports that and

.-f 20 principally includes leadership surveys and results of

^O 21

. leadership surveys that they had done.

l. 22 Also, they've done cultural gz surveys and jl 23 they-have another criteria where they assess concerns j 24 coming in to the Employee Concerns Program and levels i

)

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0 27-MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

. () JANUARY 27, 1998 1 of confidentiality with some' assessment with respect to 2 confidentiality considerations, whether people feel i 3 comfortable bringing concerns in, i

{ 4 In all those, with the exception of the 4

5 cultural survey, it meets or exceeds their goals. And 6 they're close -- and close with regard to the cultural 7 survey item.

8 Their next criteria that they looked at l

l.

9 was the line management handles issues effectively.

I -10 And they -also assess that area as- successful, green.

-$ 11 And they identified several areas that they used in 2

12 doing that. A lot of that is how the line management 13 accomplishes andLaddresses issues and looking at _

the 14 licensee's corrective. action program. Measures that--

15 they use to help determine the success criteria is the 16 timeliness for completion of corrective actions. .W ere 17 they done within 30 days?- And looking at the-l 18 evaluation, they have an evaluation report of -their 19 condition reports of. how well they are for each one

20 that goes through over a period and overdue O-

-, 21 assignments. And looking at those criter4.a , their l-

=

g-22 consideration is that that area is green and

l 23 puccessful.

2 The third criteria they look at is is

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28 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

))}. JANUARY 27, 1998 1 Employee Concerns Program effective. And that's the 2 formal Employee Concerns Program. There's a number of 3 measures in that, a number of concerns that come in.

4 Timeliness for- looking at concerns. They assess that 5 area as also green and effective or success -- meeting 6 the success criteria for restart.

7 And the final criteria that they looked 8 at and discussed and had some measurements were 9 recognition and addressing problem areas. And these 10 are where there may- be organizational disputes or p 11 problems in handling -of issues in a particular 9

12 organization aspect. And that area they assess now as 13 yellow, not meeting the success criteria.

14 And some of the factors that they looked 15 at in that area were -- some of the -- let's see. Were 16 looking at whether people would use the program again.

17 And their training aspect, the level of their training.

[ 18 They haven't completed necessarily all- the training i 19 that they have planned, although they have made 20 . progress in that area. Whether there's adverse trends

-O

, 21 and numbers of issues that are coming forward. And, lI = 22 also, how they're dealing in numbers and l 23 accomplishments of completing, addressing the problem 24 areas. And they feel that more progress needs to be POST REPORTING SERVICE j HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l-

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29 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

(]) JAMUARY 27, 1998 1

i i taade in that area.

, 2 That was their findings and conclusions.

3 I'll go over quickly some of the items 4 that Little Harbor discussed in their presentation.

1

5 And they covered essentially three areas. One area 1

I 6 that they were looking at and providing some 7 obser"ations is the Safety-Conscious Work Environment.

8 And a 17t of that, I might explain, Little Harber is i 9 there on site and available. And a lot of the bases

! 10 for their observations in this area and they identified

,g 11 war attel. dance at meetings. There's an Executive 9

, 12 Review Board that reviews disciplinary actions.

l 13 There's also incidents or events of employee, personnel 14 interactions or pending events and issues in that area, i

15 They're available and observed some of the actions and 36 how those issues are dealt with. Observing some of the 17 training into some of the on-site activities.

l 18 And hised on that, their findings in 19 that aren as presented today were that -- the initial l 20 ona v as that substantial improvements have been made in

,$ 21 this area, that they're demonstrated improved k

22 understanding and commitment to reaching the goal of an g

l 23 acceptable safety-conscious work er monment.

4 24 But they also ' m:; some issues -- anu POST REPORTING .RVICE HAMDEN, CT (800 262-4102

30 MEETING I TO!4E UNITS 1 one of the principle issues or items they identified is 2 some of the interactions and support from some other 3 elements of the management, like Human Resources and 4 other departments in dealing and supporting some of 5 these issues that may involve activities in those areas 6 and how all that is integrated into a, you know, 7 combined approach to dealing with some of the issues 8 that come up, 9 And, also, some issues were identified 10 in that the ut.ility and line organization has not yet g 11 fully developed the requisite skills to consistently 12 promote a work atmosphere that provides a safety-13 conscious wc.k environment.

14 The other area that was looked at and 15 discussed was the Employee Concerns Program, where they 16 stand there. And that -- some of the findings that 17 uere discussed and presented in that area were based on l 18 a fairly extensive review of the case files in Employee 19 Concerns Program.

20 These are issues and concerns that are f 21 brought up outside of the line organization to this l

l

. 22 organization, to the Employee Concerns Program. And a 5

l 23 focus and concentration on looking at those cases and 24 cases closed that involve harassment, intimidation, POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l

31 MEETIN R I T0! UNITS 1 retaliation and discrimination. And our code word for 2 that is HIRD, 3 Locked at -- a lot of those cases 4 involved, and those particularly that were closed in 5 '97, in certain aspects and parts of some of those that l 6 remained open. Looked at other cases. There was also 7 involvement, review of cases that were not considered 8 or categorized by the licensee as HIRD or harassment, 9 intimidation issues.

10 There were reviews with some of the p 11 individuals that had raised this concern on feedback u

12 and also observed some of the interactions and 13 operations of the Employee Concerns Program.

14 And the findings that were identified in 15 that area, some of the principle findings, that the 16 Employee Concerns Program has demonstrated an ability 17 to effectivel, resolve employee concerns of 18 retaliation, but has also identified that the Employee

$ 19 Concerns Program does not always meet timely -- does 20 not always timely intervene in cases needing immediate

$ 21 intervention or reaching a determination of existence 1

22 of a chilling effect.

l 23 And one of the other findings was the 24 Employee Concerns Program has not always displayed a O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 '

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i 1

i 1

32 l

() JATUAR 98 4 l

) 1 1 sensitivity to employees facing HIRD situations or 1 2 maintain sufficient communications with all concernees 3 during the Employee Concerns Program investigation and 4 recolution.

5 Associated with both the safety-6 conscious work environment and Employee Concerns 7 Program, as is our custom, there were some 8 recommendations that were made by Little Harbor to deal 9 with some of the findings that they had.

10 Importantly, in the last area discussed

, p 11 by Little Harbor, they, too, provided an assessment of u

, 12 the status of where they consider the licensee was 13 relative to the success criteria. I might add that 14 Little Harbor has and uses 12 attributes that is 4

15 included in their oversight plan and they're attributes J

16 of an ideal safety-conscious work environment.

17 Their grading system in measuring these 18 attributes is a little different, although it uses the

! 19 same colors. It's green, yellow and red. Their 4

i l 20 success criteria is -- falls into one of the levels of f 21 the yellow, given that green is the ideal or more or l

. 22 less the perfect environment, difficult but noble goal

.g l 23 to achieve. The levels below that, in Little Harbor's 24 estimations, are accept able to restart.

0'l POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 gg,__-.. - . , , w , - . , - . , __ ,.n.. - .-,

1 l

33

(]) A AR 2 98 1 And where they came down -- and they've 2

taken these 12 criteria and kind of identified and came 3 up with assessment in those areas and kind of 4 correlated those with the four Northeast Utilities 5 criteria or close to it.

6 And their assessment in that area was, 7 at least with the first criteria that I mentioned, 8 demonstrate the wi'lingness . to raise safety concerns.

9 Little Harbor's assessment was that they were yellow in 10 that area, kind of mid-category finding. And that was g 11 acceptable for restart.

e 12 And the second criteria, demonstrate 13 that issues are being effectively resolved by line 14 management, the same identified yellow but with an 15 improving trend in that area. And, also, that would 16 meet the criteria of -- adequate of -- to support 17 restart.

l 18 And in the third area, demonstrate that I; 19 the ECP Program is effective. This criteria or element f 20 had been identified previously at the last assessment

$ 21 that it was not at a level that would meet restart 8

. 22 expectations. But at this assessment, it was found I

l 23 that this -- it was acceptable in yellow, improving.

24 And some of that was based on some recent statistics on O POST REPORTING SERVICE RAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

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% 34 Cid 14EETIllG RE: 14ILLSTOliE UllITS i

Q JANUARY 27, 1998 1 the acceptability by people that use the Employee 2 Concerns Program and feedback and how they felt --

3 whether they felt comfortable with using it. And some 4 of the information showed --

would indicate that the 5 numbers were fairly good, running at about a rate of

6 about 80 percent in that area.

7 The last criteria they identified is --

8 it's a little longer as Little Harbor characterizes it.

9 Demonstrate that management can recognize and 10 effectively deal with alleged instances of harassment, p 11 intimidation or other circumstances which have created u

12 a chilling effect which collectively are referred to as 13 prcblem areas.

14 In this area, they identify the licensee 15 is not meeting the success criteria. It's a red but 16 with some improving trends. And some of the things 17 I've discussed that they found.

[ 18 I won't get into the 12 criteria that 19 fall somewhat along the same lines and fall into some 20 of those areas. I might mention that one of the major

$ 21 activities that they identified that they -- that I 22

Little Harbor plans to do in the upcoming future in 5

l 23 February is conduct what is termed structured 24 interviews, going out and interviewing a number of -- a POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

35 MBETIN !4I TOli UNITS 1 select group of employees. And it's a pretty large 2 number. It's -- I think it's over 280 individuals.

3 And they did this last summer. And this is an 4 interview and it measures a bunch of elements related 5 to employees' willingness to bring concerns forward, 6 safety culture and breaks it down. And these 7 interviews will go on for several weeko and the resulta 8 will likely be available in a month or so.

9 might mention I before I give Helen a 10 chance to give you a summary of the inspection g 11 findings, that we do have some representation from u

12 Little Harbor here with us this evening. So O 13 are questions following that if there o category, we may get some 14 support from them in responding to them.

15 And with that, I'd like to pass the mike 16 to Helen. Ms. Helen Pastis, who will give you a little

-17 discussion on some of our findings in this area.

$ 18 MS, HELEN PASTIS: Thank you.

19 Good evening. The team's main objective 20 in this evaluation was to assess the implementation of 3 21 the Employee Concerns Program and the Employee Concerns

! 22 Oversight Panel at Millstone. I'll also be referring

[ 23 to those two as the ECP and ECOP, the initialisms.

24 During its evaluation, the team also had O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

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36 MEETIPG RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1 the opportunity to conduct some evaluation of the 2 Safety-Conscious Work Environment. One of the i

i 4

3 components in the NRC's assessment of Millstone's ECP l 1

4 and SCHE will be the results of Little Harbor  !

5 Consultants' findings and recommendations. The
6 expertise that Little Harbor brings to issues will be a 7 factor in our oversight program on the status of the 8 licensee's programs.

9 The team also assessed the third-party 10 organization, or APOP, which is Little Harbor 1

f2 11 Consultants, which oversees the implementation of the 12 Employee Concerns Program and Safety-Conscious Work 13 Environment at Millstone.

14 The team conducted its evaluation in two 15 parts. The first -- both parts we were on site. And 16 the first week was December 8 to the 12th. The team 4

17 arrived on site and did our evaluation. And then any l 18 issues or follow-up items that came up, we returned the 19 week of January 5 to the 9th and continued our 20 evaluation.

O

. 21 To get into some of the specifics on the i 22 Employee Concerns Program, the team found that the g

l 23 licensee has made significant improvements in the 24 Employee Concerns Program. The ECP appears to be O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

37 MEETI!1 R !I TOli UNITS 1 functioning adequately and seems to be an established 2 program at Millstone.

3 The team found that the ECP organization 4 had independence, resources and management support to 5 perform thorough, unbiased investigations. The minor 6 discrepancies found by the team did not significantly 7 detract from the program or its accomplishments.

8 One area we will continue to monitor is 9 people's villingness to use the ECP again. And we 10 heard some of the results concerning that area this g 11 morning at the meeting, y

12 The team reviewed some of the ECP case 13 files and generally they appeared adequate, with minor 14 deficiencies.

15 On the ECP self-assessments, the team 16 concluded that the ECP self-assessments were adequately 17 self-critical. The licensee's tracking of Little l 18 Harbor Consultants' recommendations was initially slow, 19 but now is satisfactory, f 20 On ECOP, the Employee Concerns Oversight

$ 21 Panel, ECOP was slow to develop and begin meaningful I

g 22 activities. But now it appears to be functioning

[ 23 adequately, heading in a positive direction.

24 ECOP has been especially effective in O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

A 38 At AR 8 1 conducting leadership surveys in specific parts of the 2 NU organization to help identify problem areas.

3 The ECOP organization is an independent, 4 diverse group of site employees that reports to a high-5 level manager at the site.

6 The ECOP self-assessments -- the ECOP 7 self-assessments had been minimal. But we understand l

8 that there's one currently under way.

9 The other area we looked at is problem -

i 10 areas. As part of its Safety-Conscious Work g 11 Environment, the licensee has set up a program to W

12 identify and resolve problem areas. The licensee 13 defines problem areas as areas of personnel interaction 14 where a safety-conscious work environment is challenged 15 or does not exist.

. 16 It is a novel approach in being more 17 pro-active to identify these areas before they erupt l 18 into an organizational crisis.

19 The team evaluated the effectiveness of 20 identifying and resolving the problem areas. We found

$ 21 that the licensee has made considerable progress to l 22 improve its identification and resolution problem j 23 areas. However, we did find some weaknesses in this 24 area.

O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 1

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39 O "9^t%AaEff918 1 Safety-conscious work environment, self-2 assessments and the long-range plan. The team 3 recognizes that it takes a long time for employees to 4 develop trust in a developing and evolving safety-5 conscious work environment and it takes time for 6 management to avoid the occasional errors and eliminate 7 actions which may lead to a chilling effect.

8 The team expects that the licensee will 9 develop a long-range plan which will define its future 10 course of action. Such a plan should discuss 11 management's expectations to continue assessing a 12 safety-conscious work environment program.

13 The team also evaluated the licensee's 14 Employee Concerns Program and Safety-Conscious Work 15 Environment Training Programs. We found that the 16 licensee has made significant improvements in the 17 training provided to its staff regarding the safety-18 conscious work environment and the Employee Concerns l

. 19 Program.

20 Generally, the team found that the

$ 21 licensee's program provides accurate and meaningful I

= 22 training on safety-conscious work environment and ECP, I

l 23 The licensee is also- ensuring the training records are 24 kept to ensure that training is given to those that O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

40 MEETIN R 14 I TO! UNITS 1 require it and soliciting and using feedback to 2 determine that training's etfectiveness.

3 However, the team found that the 4 licensee has deviated from its procedures and training 5 manual. We found three instances and those could be 6 considered as minor deviations.

7 We also looked at Little Harbor 8 Consultants. Overall, Little Harbor Consultants has 9 been effective in overseeing the Employee Concerns 10 Program at Millstone and has been instrumental in g 11 providing findings and recommendations to continue the ti 12 ECP improvements, 13 Perhaps because the programs and Safety-14 Conscious Work -Environment have recently been 15 instituted, Little Harbor Consultants has not been as 16 rigorous in evaluating Safety-Conscious Work 17 Environment Programs, such as the program dealing with l 18 problem areas.

19 Little Harbor Consultants provided very 20 thorough and insightful observations and

$ 21 recommendations in reviewing the licensee's k

22 Comprehensive Plan. Specifically, Little Harbor l 23 Consultants reviewed extensively the Millstone ECP, the 24 implementation of the ECP and the licensee's Corrective O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

! 41 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1 Action Program.

l 2 There are many other areas which Little 3 Harbor Consultants has provided significant findings.

4 For example, Little Harbor Consultants conducted 5 extensive interviews en an individual basis to assist 6 the ECP. And as Phil said earlier, it plans to conduct 7 a second round of structured interviews next month in 8 February.

9 Little Harbor Consultants has been 10 effectivo also in improving the weaknesses in the g 11 licensee's family of the HIRD cases, harassment, u

12 intimidation, retaliation, discrimination cases.

O 13 In reacting to events which turned very 14 quickly into a crisis for the licensee, Little Harbor 15 Consultants has performed its own independent and very 16 = thorough investigations of such incidents as involving 17 disciplinary actions as in the MOV and training events.

( 18 Little Harbor Consultants does not 19 appear to have evaluated sufficiently such programmatic 20 areas as ECOP and Safety-Conscious Work Environment's

( 21 identification and resolution of problem area.

22 Although Little Harbor Consultants has not yet i

[ 23 evaluated the problem areas, like the elements of a 24 safety-conscious work environment, the NRC's team did 3

POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

42 i

Al AR 98 1 evaluate the problem areas. And we also heard this

] 2 morning that Little Harbor Consultants planc as its 3 very near future activities to address these areas.

4 The team .ound that Little Harbor 5 Consultants was slow in tracking and evaluating NU's 6 responses to Little Harbor Consultants' l 7 recommendations. And, also, Little Harbor Consultants 8 belatedly provided formal documentation of information.

9 Overall, the team found that the 10 Millstone Employee Concerns Program has made

)

g 11 significant improvements and is functioning adequately.

U 12 ECOP was slow to develop but now it appears to be 13 heading in the right direction.

14 The programs in the Safety-Conscious 15 Work Environment have just recently been started and 16 progress has been made and considerable offort is 17 expanded to identify problem areas, 18 The team found some weaknesses in the i, 19 resolution of problem arer; And it recognizes that 20 this is a novel approach an effort for the licensee 3 21 to be more pro-active to identify and resolve problem i 22 areas early.

g l 23 Little Harbor Consultants has been 24 effectiva in overseeing the Employee Concerns Program O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

43 JA ARY 98 1 at Millstone and has been ins *rumental in providing 2 findings and recommendations to continue the ECP 3 improvements.

4 Of course, the NRC will continue to 5 monitor the licensee's performance in its Employee 6 Concernn Program and Safety-Conscious Work Environment.

7 The NRC will also continue to monitor Little Harbor 8 Consultants' oversight activities and to hold periodic 9 meetings to discuss its findings and recommendations in 10 overseeing the Millstone Employee Concerns Program and g 11 Safety-Conscious Work Environment.

U 12 Thank you.

13 MR. McKEE: Thank you, Helen.

14 Before I open it ^o questions, I -- you 15 know, we end up using a lot of terms here. And I 16 thought it might be useful just to mention one. We've 17 used it a lot tonight and we assume everybody knows it.

l 18 And I'm going to ra d the definition. It's safety-19 Conscious Work Environn.ent.

20 What a Safety-Conscious Work Environment f

E 21 is is defined as a work environment in which employees g 22 are encouraged to raise safety concerns and where s

l 23 concerns are properly reviewed in the proper priority 24 based on their potential safety significance and O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (8001 262-4102

44 MEETIN R II TOli UNITS 1 appropriately resolved with timely feedback to the 2

originator of the concerns and to other employees.

3 That's why we -- a lot of the focus and 4 some of the emphasis on some of the success criteria 5 are on the corrective Action Program. We think that's 6 a fundamental program in addressing and dealing with 7 concerns and that program, hopefully, is well used and 8 applied in that direction. And, also, that feedback 9 and people are aware of how their concerns are 10 addressed. So that kind of provides some of the foundation of why we look in some of the P 11 areas that we

?

12 do.

13 With that, I think we'll complete this

-14 topic and open it to questions. I'm surprised there's 15 questions in this area. Well, let's -- let me try 16 someone new. The gentleman back there. Oh, Okay.

17 This works. You don't have to turn it l 18 on.

19 MR. ROBERT FROMER: Okay. Good. I just 20 have a very simple --

f 21 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Name?

b 22 MR. FROMER: Robert Fromer, New London,

[ 23 Connecticut.

24 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Thank you.

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i l 45 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 1; MR. FROMER: I just have a very simple l

2 question about the Employee Concerns Program. In this 3 current eval -- '

i 4 A VOICE: We can't hear you.

5 MR. FROMER: In this current evaluation, 4

6 what percentage of employees are raising concerns 7 directly with NU versus going directly to NRC?

8 MR. McKEE: As always, a simple question

! 9 that doesn't necessarily have a simple answer. There 10 are thousande and thousands of concerns that are -- not

,g 11 concerns. Concerns may not be the proper term. But U

12 issues that are raised by employees throughout the 13 program.

14 For instance, there's thousands of 15 corrective actions and reports that come up that are 16 dealt through the normal line organization. So I think 17 even in the licensee's statistics, when they show 18 corrective action issues compared to --

you know, I. 19 corrective action issues, you know, the one statistics, 20 the concerns or allegations -- taking corrective action O

,. 21 issues, there are thousands of those that are brought i

. 22 forward to the licensee under the normal line 1

l 23 organization practice. The ratio of that, of concerns 24 that are brought to the licensee's Employee Concerns POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

46 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1 Program by itself is large. And if you look at other 2 programs, I mean we're talking of thousands to one. I 3 don't know the exact ratio. It depends on what systems 4 you look at.

5 Dut when you look at it from the other 6 aspect of things in the Employee Concerns Progr'am as to 7 deal with issues that go outside the line organization

8 where employees or contractors or somebody for that 9 matter feel they don't feel comfortable to go through 10 the line organization. And those numbers relative to g 11 all the issues that are brought up at the site are i u 12 small. But, for instance, the numbers in the chart 13 that we have in one of the graphs is -- they had a 2

14 trend of approximately 20, 15, down to about 10. There 15 was -- was an increase in the Employee Concerns, the 16 exact numbers it went up to about 35 in December, which 17 is a high rate. We've asked and talked to the licensee l 18 about that to explain that number.

19 You compare those numbers to NRC 20 allegations. In NRC allegations, you go from October -

O 21 -

we'll go September we had 10, Oct W;r we had five, I

. 22 November, four, December two. So you can see that 5

[ 23 ratio of concerns brought to the Employee Concerns

, 24 Program wac an off-line organization receiving concerns POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

47 MEETIN R !I STOli UNITS 1 than the NRC.

2 But I think in the larger picture, 3 co.mpared to the concerns that are raised and dealt with 4 in the line organization, the ratios are substantially 5 higher, 6 MR. FROMER: You haven't answered my 4

7 question. It's a very simple question. Pick whatever 8 category you want. The total number of employee concerns, what percentage of that total number has gone 9

10 directly to NU instead of the NRC and what percentage

, p 11 has directly to the NRC? Now, if you don't have the U

12 answer, just say you don't have the answer,

, 13 DR. TRAVERS: Correct me if I'm wrong, 14 Phil, but I think the answer in large measure is we

)_ 15 don't have the answer. And it's by virtue --

16 MR. FROMER: Fine.

17 DR. TRAVERS: But let me see if I can l 18 explain. It's by virtue of what he was trying to 19 explain to you. And that is simply that to the largest f 20 extent -- and your question is a relevant one because

'O 21 the ideal is a situation where workers who have l 22 concerns raise it to their supervisor and they get it l 23 resolved in some fashion.

24 Maybe the next step would be the use of O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

d I

I 48 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O 3^2m^av 27, 1998 1

1 an int 3rnal company Employee Concerns Program. Now, 2 there are numbers associated with the second step. But i

31 1

we don't iave numbers associated with the first step.

I 4 The ideal would be that you don't ever 5 get to uso ECP because your problams and issues are 6 getting resolvsd by the normal line process.

7 And the next step, which would be 8 perhaps an allegation submitted to NRC because you're 9 not comfortable with the Employee Conceras Program or 10 you don't think it's effective, would be another

$ 11 indication -- we have numbers -- and we can provide U

12 those. And I think we've given you some indication of i 13 the numbers of allegations that NRC is receiving.

14 im in our weekly -- I'm sorry -- monthly 15 status reports has been giving us numbers on the 16 numbers of concerns rt.ised through the Employee

. 17 Concerns Program, 18 But what we don't have and what we think l, 19 is probably a significant number -- we certainly hope jf 20 so. In fact, we hope the program they're developing o

. 21 would encourage to the maximum extent practical the 1

5 22 idsntification and resolution of issues within the E

l 23 normal line processes. We don't have those numbers.

24 MR. FROMER: All right. Let me ask you POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 1

49

~~ *"

O 3^tY^nMi918 1 another question. And let me indicate just a general 2 philosophy. The straightest distance between two 3 points is -- I mean the shortest distance between two 4 points is a straight line. And I hate to go around the 5 Cape of Good Hope to get to those puints. ,#

6 DR. TRAVERS: Why don't you -- well --

7 MR. FROMER: Well, I can provide you 8 this sheet, too. For instance, let me choose December.

9 And I -- I don't have a calculator, so I can't do ':he 10 percentage math. But, for example, one of the cent.ral g 11 licensee's programs for dealing with issues through the u

.12 normal line organization is their condition reparts.

)

13 And in December, the number of condition roports 14 initiated for Millstone Unit 3 was 442. The nunber of 15 employee concerns that were received -- oh. I'm sorry.

16 Let me go -- well, let's stay with December. 442 in 17 December. And there were 35 Employee Concernu Program 18 issues received in December. And the NRC ret.eived two 19 allegations.-

/

20 DR. TRAVERS: Yes. I hav'e to stand O

. 21 corrected on it. Condition reports -- I was thinking l 22 g of other kinds of concerns. The condit.f.on reports in l 23 really the nominal sense are an indicator of issues and 4 their introduction into the system that corrects them.

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50 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998

(])

1 And to the extent that the issues are tracked as 2 condition repcrts, you can use that as a measure of 3 employees raising concerns.

4 MR. FROMER: All right. Let's cut to 5 the chase. Let me ask you a simple -- another simple 6 quePtion. Are the number of allegations from the time 7 that the issue -- from the time of the shutdown to this 8 point, are the number of allegations leveling off, the 9 same, decreasing? Which way are they going?

10 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: To who?

Q 11 DR. TRAVERS: To NRC.

L' 12 MR. FROMER: To the NRC.

13 MR. McKEE: I think, for the most, they 14 have -- they have stayed about the same, about the same 15 level throughout that period. You know.

16 MR. FROMER: So the intent of the 17 Employee Concerns Program, as I understand it, is to 18 reduce the number of allegations going to NRC vis-a-vis I 19 the employees have chosen, because of a trust in the 20 company, to raise those issues internally. So, in O ~

, 21 essence, what we're getting at here and what you're i 22 saying is nothing's really changed in terms of employee g

l 23 concerns. In terms of allegations, in terms of 24 resources, your staff must commit to deal with these O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 k

51 MEETIN R 14 I TOli UNITS 1 allegations which really should be dealt with in-house.

2 Am I correct in that statement?

3 MR. McKEE: Well, I don't know if I 4 would -- I think --

5 MR. FROMER: Can Mr. --

can Dr. Thayer 6 answer that?

I 7 DR. TRAVERS Pardon?

8 you l MR. FROMER: Can answer that

! 9 question?

10 DR. TRAVERS The indication of -- and g 11 Little Harbor has explained this probably better than s

12 I'm able to. Certainly, the level of allegations is an 13 indication of the health of the cafety culture at a 14 nuclear power plant and it's part of the metrics that 15 we're evaluating and Little Harbor is looking at as 16 well.

17 I think what Helen mentioned about the l 18 ability to turn and make a dramatic change in a 19 degraded safety culture, which was our belief at 20 Millstone --

in fact, management at Millstone has

$ 21 indicated that was what they found when they came in --

1 22 is something that you don't do overnight. I think it's

[ 23 a longer-term process. It's a development of trust.

24 It's a development of, you know, trust on the part of D

V POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i

k 52 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

(]) JANUARY 27, 1998 1 employees that isn't earned overnight.

2 And I think we can evaluate the 3 situation as we tuink it exists today in terms of 4 programs and processes and the way they seem to be 5 working today 6 yr 'ie proof of the pudding -- and I 7 think you'd probably agree with this -- is the longer-8 term. And I suspect that in the longer-term if, in 9 fact, they've implemented programs and continue to 10 effectively implement them such that workers feel free 11 to raise safety concerns, that those kinds of numbers 12 would decrease.

13 Millstone numbers are essentially the 14 highest numbers in the United States today for the 15 submission of allegations to NRC. And I think that's 16 indicative of a long-term, long-standing problem at 17 Millstone that isn't one that is easily amenable to 18 rapid change. And, yet, some of the information that 19 we've getting from su veys that both the company and

. 20 Little Harbor are performing is that that is a change

$ 21 by virtue of the responses that are being given to I 22 probing questions about willingness to raise issues to g

l 23 management, willingness to use the ECP Program and so 24 on and so forth.

O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

-we,,e e, + - - - +

53 MEETI!1G RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1 But is it true that there are still 2 relatively high levels of allegations being submitted 3 to NRC? I think it is true. And it has to be a factor 4 in our assessment of the overall issue of how the 5 program is being implemented and whether it can be 6 judged as effective today.

7 MR. FROMER: Well, in my opinion, until 8 in the long-term they could have significant changes 9 and have a negative slope in terms of allegations 10 coming to the NRC and you do not have to expend as much g 11 energy and the energy is done in-house with NU, I think u .

12 that Millstone should stay shut down on that issue O 13 alone until they can demonstrate --

14 (Applause) 15 MR. FROMER: -- that in the long-term 16 they can deal with the employee concerns and safety-17 conscious work environment, which apparently, from l 18 everything that you've said this evening --

it 19 indicates that while they're making an effort, they 20 have a long way to go and their effectiveness is still

$ 21 very poor in terms of being able to turn around that k 22 situation, i

[ 23 Do I give them credit for making a 24 strong effort? What else could they do? Yes, I do.

O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

54 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS Q JANUARY 27, 1998 1 But in terms of the public safety and in terms of the 2 facts that have come out --

and we're dealing with 3 facts. We're not dealing with speculation or rumors 4 here. In terms of the facts that have come out, the 5 public, I don't think -- I'm talking about the general 6 public. I'm not talking about the employees at 7 Millotone who try to drum up public support to open up 8 a plant because they want to P ep their jobs. It's 9 that the public doesn't have et st, at least myself as 10 a member of the public do not have trust that they can g 11 operate this plant effectively in terms of human a

12 resource management. And, therefore, until they can in 13 the long-term, they shoult 3tay shut down.

14 Thank you.

15 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Thank you.

16 (Applause) 17 MR. McKEE: I'll get to you, Don.

l 18 MR. DELCORE: Okay.

19 MR McKEE: Mr. Halloway?

20 MR. MARK HALLOWAY: Good evening. Mark

$ 21 Halloway, Niantic, Connecticut. I have a few questions i 22 here in looking over g one of the handouts that Mr.

S l 23 Markowic was so nice to show me. I notice that the 24 HIRD concerns has a basically flat line through '97 POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

55 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 1 with an upward spike in December and then it sort of 2 flattens off, at least through the 21st of January.

3 And then there was a note there that said " Trend 4 improving." Is -- how can we take these numbers and 5 look at this as an improving trend? This is basically 6 flat with a high spike and then flattening out again.

! 7 MR. '4cKEE: The chart you -- you know, 1

8 you described that. That's one of the -- Northeast's 9 indicators and that's their assessments. I think if 10 you look at the -- we have asked --

I mean we are --

p 11 have sv.no concerns of what is that spike in December V

12 which would -- I agree with you, would make an argument

)

13 of the trend. And that is an issue. And we've asked 14 Northeast to look into that. And they're looking into 15 that to see if there might be some rationale or cause 16 or why that may have happened.

17 MR. HALLOWAY: But even -- but, Phil,

[ 18 even without the spike, it's still basically a flat 19 line, which does not show an improvement, f 20 DR. TRAVERS: That's the same question

$ 21 we asked them.

I 22 g MR. HALLOWAY: Right. So the NRC's l 23 feeling right now -- and I'm interested in your 24 assessment -- is that that isn't an improving trend?

POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

56 MEETIN R 14 I TO! UNITS ,

1 MR. McKEE: A flat line -- I would agree 2 with you. You have to look at that.

3 MR. HALLOWAY: Okay. This is --

4 MR. McKEE: We asked that question and 5 made some observations. I don't know how far back the 6 statistics -- you know, they may be referring back to 7 something that's off the graph. But from you see, I 8 agree with you.

9 MR. HALLOWAY: One thing that I noticed 10 in looking over the handouts was that I had seen a g 11 previous sheet indicating some criteria for status 12 indicators and things have changed. They haven't 13 necessarily changed in the data, but they've certainly 14 changed in the definitions given to the data.

15 Now " meets expectations" has become 16 "world-class", " Requires management action" has become 17 " acceptable for restart." Now, this, to me, is 18 troubling because I don't think that you can --

I

. 1 obviously, you can't -- you wou.Tdn't want to change the 20 data. But then when you attach different definitions

$ 21 to those data, that doesn't -- that doesn't give me a 8 22

. lot of confidence.

t l 23 MR. McKEE: I'm not sure. Is that --

24 MR. HALLOWAY: That's the Little Harbor POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 sww a w -

w -

57 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 1 assessment and their definitions --

2 MR, McKEE: As I mentioned, I might let 3 them explain that. Little Harbor had somewhat of a 4 different scale that they used. And although they use l 5 the same color scheme, red, yellow --

6 MR. HALLOWAY: Right.

7 MR. McKEE: I mean green, yellow, red.

8 Their expectations look at their attributes. They 9 indicated that this was an ideal. And their green 10 represents, you know, an ideal accomplishment or ideal g 11 in that environment. So the scale is higher in their e

rg 12 estimate. That --

U 13 MR. HALLOWAY: But that has changed.

14 Phil. That has changed from the report that I saw of 15 three weeks ago. Those definitions have changed.

16 There was a definition that said -- and John and I 17 talked about that. So -- here we go, John.

$ 18 MR. McKEE: I'll give John an 19 opportunity to --

20 MR. JOHN BECK: As a matter of fact, we

$ 21 did discuss that. We discussed it on Susan Perry 8

22 Luxton's show about three weeks ago. And our change of l 23 labeling on those gradations of our evaluation of 24 various performance criteria was in direct response to G

~l POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

58 MEETIN I T NE UNITS 1 questions that I got from you and from Susan Perry 2 Luxton because of the apparent confusion between 3 calling " expectation met" when that expectation was the 4 ideal. And that's our fault that we didn't do a good 5 job with making it clear thae, meeting an ideal 6 expectation in our view is world-class performance.

7 So we apologize for not doing a good job 8 in the first place of making that fact clear. And we i 9 appreciate the input that you gave us that allowed us 10 to make it clear tonight, g 11 Meeting an ideal expectation is world-U n 12 class. And as we discussed this morning on that point, V

13 we went further to say that there are a lot of 14 operating plants that operate safely that are not 15 considered to be world-class operators but they're 16 certainly responsible and safe operating plants.

17 We would expect the Millstone reactor to l 18 restart, or reactors, when they meet an acceptable 19 level of performance that's comparable to those other 20 plants around this country, meeting the same level of f 21 regulatory scrutiny and not necessarily to have to be b

= 22 world-class.

E l 23 When we set up our gradations, we're 24 also very sensitive to the fact that they ought to go O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

i 59 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

( ). JANUARY-27, 1998 4

1 beyond an acceptable level of restart and operation of 2 the facilities in their long-range strategies. And we 3 wanted to be able to make those judgments on a long-4 term basis. And, therefore, we go beyond just simply 5 being ready to restart and would look to them in our 6 continued oversight, however long that may be. to 7 continue to make progress. So that's why we've got a B wider spectrum of gradations and that's why we've made 9 the judgment that it's acceptable for restart when 10 they're at the neutrtl yellow mark with a hotizontal j 11 arrow, at least there or better. Anything below that Of 12 we don't think is acceptable for restart.

13 Is that helpful?

14 MR. HALLOWAY: Well, it's -- and I don't 15 know whether it's helpful or not, John, because my --

16 my real worry is that these definitions change as we go 17 along. I know what you're trying to tell me is that 18 they've been further amplified by this.

! 19 MR. BECK: Well, I'm trying to tell you 20 that ue changed them to be responsive to your

$ 21 suggestions and your criticism. And-if it's still not

- I-22 clear, I'll stay here as long as necessary --

l 23 MR. HALLOWAY: Well, it's --

24 MR. BECK: -- to make it clear.

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60 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 1 MR. HALLOWAY: It's very clear to me, 2 John.

3 MR. BECK: Okay.

4 MR. HALLOWAY: Thank you.

5 A VOICE: Excuse me. Could that 6 gentleman be identified please who just spoke?

7 MR. McKEE: It's John Beck, who is 8 President of Little Harbor Consultanta.

9 MR. HALLOWAY: My next question has to 10 do with -- and, in fact, maybe we let John go too soon, g 11 But in terms of the selection of the interviewees --

U 12 A VOICE: Could we hear your questions, V( 3 13 too, please?

14 A VOICE: Louder please.

15 MR. McKEE: You've just got to hold it 16 close, Mark.

17 A VOICE: Real loud, Mark.

l 18 MR. HALLOWAY: Real loud. Yes.

19 A VOICE: That's gcod.

20 MR. HALLOWAY: My next question has a

$ 21 lot to do with how the interviewees were selected for b

= 22 these -- for these structured interviews. Were they 5

l 23 done on a random basis or were they done on a volunteer 24 basis?

O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

61 MEETIN RE I TOli UNITS 1 MR. BECK: Our process and intent is to 2 get a representative sample of the entire work force at 3 Millstone. So we look at how the organization is set 4 up, how many people are in various organizations, and 5 we make a cut through the entire organization so we get 6 people from every element.

7 This time, we are also going to be 8 looking at the problem areas. And we've skewed some 9 attention in that direction so that we'd be tertain 10 that we've sampled those areas that are known to have l@ 11 some ongoing difficulties and that we've got a good 12 healthy representation in that regard.

13 As we did last summer, we will interview 14 anybody who comes forward and says, "I want to be 15 interviewed in this process." But we also record our 16 data in a fashion that allows us to include those 17 volunteers and to exclude them as we analyze the data l 18 so that we can see whether or not our bottom line has I. 19 been biased one way or the other, f 20 You know, you could say, well, people

$ 21 are going to volunteer. They're going to pack the hall b

22 and pack the ballot box and get a positive vote or vice l 23 versa. People are going to come forward with another 24 point of view. So we analyze it both ways.

POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

62

(} A kR 8 1 Last summer when we looked at the 2 structured interview results, there was no difference 3 between the volunteer population and the overall 4 population. So we'll be able to see that, if it is, 5 and we'll report it as such so everybody'will know.

6 So we get a representative sample. We 7 get the sample -- the people are chosen by us. There 8 will not be any duplicates other than perhaps in the 9 volunteer population from last summer. We're going to 10 get a completely different set of individuals so we g 11 don't get repetition.

0 12 Any other questions on how that's done?

L 13 MR. HALLOWAY: Well, I understand how 14 you're doing it. My concern is that you're -- in doing 15 the volunteer basis, that you will get both ends of the 16 spectrum, that you don't get -- you don't get the real 17 flavor that you'd get from a total random sampling.

18 You're going to get people that are going to feel

! 19 extremely strongly one way or the other. And that 20 could swing your data towards a very positive

$ 21 assessment or a very negative assessment.

1 22 MR. BECK: You understand that if we can 5

l 23 separate that out from all the non-volunteers, we would 24 be able to see a d.fference one way or the other.

A

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__ ._ _ _ _ . __ _ ~. . _ . . _ _ _ _ _ _ - - _ _ . - . -

63 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 1 MR. HALLOWAY: Well, I just -- I'm not 2 sure that --

3 MR. BECK: We'll share those resulta 4 with you so you'll know --

5 MR. HALLOWAY: I'm not sure why you 6 would -- why you just wouldn't go on a straight random 7 sampling. To me, that would give you your best --

8 MR. BECK: Because we want to hear from 8

9 anybody who feels they want to come forward and talk, 10 rather than say no. If we said no, somebody would come g 11 in here and say, "I wanted to give input. But I didn't 9

12 get selected. So I got excluded. So you can't trust 13 the results."

14 (Applause) 15 MS. BILLIE GARDE: John?

16 MR. BECK: Ms. Billie Garde, who is on 17 our team, would like to add something.

{ 18 MS. GARDE: Let me just a couple of 19 things to that. I generally have been a very strong 20 advocate of random, pure random sampling for all the

$ 21 reasons that pure random sampling is generally a good

a. 22 idea.

5 l 23 We discussed, prior to the first batch 24 of interviews that we did, whether or not to do pure POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

64 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 1 random sampling; take a list of employee numbers, put 2 them in the hat, spit out the numbers. And we decided 3 that that would not give us the information that we 4 needed to know across the spectrum of the whole plant.

5 And so what we've done, although they're 6 not random selections, they are selections,-you know, 7 blind selections of numbers within particular groups so 8 that every organization within the company is being t

9 sampled. Security guards, administrative, engineers 10 from this organization, engineers from that shift.

j 11 So in that context, it's not pure random e

12 sampling. But it is a blind sample across every 13 organization. And that gives us a lot of data about 14 what's going on within that particular group.- And as-15 events have occurred cince we did our structured 16 interviews, that's been valuable data to go back and 17 look at. When the MOV event occurred, we went back and j 18 pulled everybody who we looked at in the MOV event to

. l:

. 19 see what kind of information we got and kind of tested h .20 ourselves.

O

, _ . _ 21 In terms of the volunteers, I don't b

- 22 think we had -- I don't remember the exact number. But 5

l- 23 I don't think we had more than a dozen, total, 24 volunteers in the last batch. If all of a sudden we O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

65

({} AI kR 2 98 1 got 80 volunteers, that may very well lead to a kind 2 of, you know, review of that process. But in the last 3 group of interviews we did, I want to say there was 4 like eight. But it was less than a dozen people who 5 volunteered.

6 If someone wants to talk to us, though, 7 we don't want to shut the door in any way that they 8 want to contact us. And then, as he said, when we ran 9 the data, the additions of volunteers didn't change the i 10 things one way or another.

g 11 And when we report the data, we'll be 9

12 able to tell you, "Here's a run of this data with the 13 volunteers and he's a run without the volunteers."

14 On the other hand, let's say somebody 15 volunteers because they've had a very bad experience 1G and they want to make sure they're included. We don't 17 want to shut the door in their face. And as you 18 remember, last time we typed-all the text of what they

! 19 said. We want to capture that text and we want you to 20 know what that text is. So we tried to strike a really 0

, 21 thoughtful balance between purely random and knowing k

22 what's going on across the site, which would be another l 23 valid criticism, to come up with a process that makes 24 sense and provides useful and thoughtful information O POST REPORTING SERVICE RAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

66 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 1 for analysis.

2 And we'll- just keep you posted. If we

-3 get a lot of volunteers, we'll let you know.

4 MR. HALLOWAY: Thank you.

5 NR McKEE: John?

6 You'll be next, Don.

, 7 MR. DELCORE: Okay.

8 MR. JOHN MARKOWICZ: John Markowicz from 9 Waterford. I want to go back to Bob Fromer's question 10 because I'm kind of confused as to where we're at.

g 11 If I look at that graph that was 0

12 presented this morning regarding HIRD and Employee 13 Concerns and I look at --

I'm going to- ignore the 14 December spike because I just want to do percentages a 15 second. If I look back from, say, August to January- ,

16 the number -of concerns that are being monthly 17 submitted, employee concerns, is at 15. I mean that's l 18 a ball park, plus or minus one. The number of 50.7 19 HIRD, which I would assume are the protected activity 20 ones, are around three. So that's like three, fifteen, 21 one-fifth,_20 percent.

B

= 22 Okay. Now, the question that I wasn't 5

-l 23 clear on the answers was how many allegations are you 24 receiving per month? Is it --

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67 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 1 DR TRAVERS: We ere?

2 MR. MARKOWICZ: Yeah. Three? Is it 10?

3 Is it 20 percent? So that gets to Bob's questions.

4 Forget about the --

I don't want to -- I'm talking 5 about percentages. I want to get a rough feel. How 6 many allegations, excluding tha December spike, are you 7 getting on average since, say, August?

8 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: NRC now?

9 MR. MARKOWICZ: Correct. Allegations, 10 NRC allegations, g 11 MR. McKEE: I think the average is about c

12 five or six. And I think in December the number was 13 two.

14 MR. MARKOWICZ: Okay. So the number --

15 so Bob's answer is about one-third -- well, no. You'd 16 have to add up -- you've had to get 15 to 20 to add the 17 allegations in. So if you add allegations to concerns.

l 18 it's 20 per month, five go to the NRC as allegations, 19 three are HIRD. And that's the ball park. That kind 20 of answers his question.

O 21 MR. McKEE: It's about a third, yes.

1 22 MR. MARKOWICZ: Okay. Okay. I E

l 23 understand the answer then. Thank you.

24 MR. DELCORE: Donald Delcore, POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

68 l MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 1 Uncasville, Connecticut. Some observations and some 2 questions. I look at the paat, oh, since June and I look at the occurrences which have come forth to Little 3

4 Harbor, to the Employee Concerns Program, to the

5 Nuclear Regulatory Commission with regard to the 6 training issue, with regard to the MOV issue, with 7 regard to the oversight issues that came up in November 8 where there was 10 individuals who had some substantial 9 problems and only because of the intervention of Little 10 Harbor was that pretty much found and there's sort of g 11 some state of resolution at this point.

9 12 The very recent issue of the Unit 3 13 Maintenance Department. The issue of -- and I didn't 14 hear any of this issue in any of the presentations of 15 late. The Nuclear Records Department had a couple of 16 individuals who were fired as a result of raising some 17 personnel sat'ety issues.

l 18 While that certainly is not relevant to 4

! 19 50.7, it is an issue which Little Harbor looks into.

20 It is an issue which Northeast looks into. And it is O

, 21 an issue of the environment with which the employees I= 22 must function.

5 l 23 Those individuals were also reviewed by 24 the Executive Review Board, which, as you know, POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

69

(]) JAN R 98 i

1 publicly NU assured both the NRC, members of the public l 2 and Little Harbor that it would take steps to ensure 3 that the cases were reviewed before the individuals 4 were fired. That certainly wasn't the case in the case 1

5 of the Nuclear Records issue.

6 If you're not up to speed on that, let 7 me recommend that you, Helen, and you, Phil, take a 8 look at that issue because it's still yet to be 9 resolved and it's indicative of what's going on at 10 Millstone with management.

$ 11 Now, with respect to that, let's go back g~ 12 and look at the fact that there was training in the s

13 September time frame which was pretty much a result of 14 the MOV and the training issues which NU claimed had to 15 be done. They went to the Ramada and they trained for 16 a whole day to get these guys up to speed.

17 But then we had the oversight issues and l 18 the maintenance issues and the Nuclear Records issues 19 and all the issues that none of us in this room know a 20 thing about and only NU knows about. Okay?

O

, 21 And I would suggest to you that the b

5 22 training wasn't adequate. And so we've had some more 5

l 23 training, another half a day of training. And I would 24 suggest to you that maybe there isn't enough training O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

70 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNT.TS

()

JANUARY 27, 1998 1 and maybe you need to look at a lot of these issues 2 that's going on.

3 But, more importantly, the issue of all 4 these things that are taking place is indicative of not 5 an atmosphere that is a relevant environment that 6 people want to be in to bring any kind of a concern 7 forward.

8 And while your position is to look at 9 50.7 issues, I think it's very, very important to 10 understand that an atmosphere that has other issues in g 11 it is indicative of the way the company does business, e

12 And until that culture is restored and a trust is 13 restored in the employees, the culture is going to 14 continue to be there.

15 Yes, as Mr. Travers pointed out, it's 16 going to be a very, very long-term issue. So I would 17 expect that we wouldn't be rushing to judgment here in 18 issuing an okay to a restart when we don't have a l-

. 19 handle on what's going on.

20 Again we're talking about Shirley 0

21 Jackson saying "A resolution to the problems, not some i

. 22 more plans and programs." So that's an important point I

l 23 that I want to make to you.

24 And there is a perception that I O

\~# POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

71 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1 recognized at the meetings that 50.7 issues seem to --

2 seem to have to separate themselves from those other 3 issues. And my point about that is it's the same 4 environment and there's no separation. It might be a 5 discrimination issue with regard to race or color. It 6 may be a discrimination issue with regard to a safety -

7 personnel safety issue, the same But it's still 8 environment.

9 And when employees are screwed with, 10 without trying to use a better word, it still sends the g 11 same message. And it doesn't have to be associated 0

12 with nuclear, even though that nuclear environment 13 certainly is of interest to the NRC.

14 So the culture's got to change. And 15 there's no other way to go about it. And we will see 16 that there won't be the need for HR issues and 17 legalistic approaches and all of the other things that

{ 18 we've seen time in and time out over this whole 19 sequence. It's not necessary. You've got to change 20 the culture and change the environment. And I wouldn't O

, 21 be too quick to be giving a restart okay when we're 1

- 22 having that.

l 23 Along with those issues that I raised, 24 those series of issues which went from training all the O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 I

1

72 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

(} JANUARY 27, 1998 1 way to the most recent issue with the Maintenance 2 Department, one of- the thingt that I found -- I was a 3 person, incidentally, that was called by the two 4 individuals who were fired in the Nuclear Records .

5 Department. They didn't choose to go to the Employee 6 Concerns Program. They didn't choose to go to the boss 7 that fired them. They didn't choose to go to the 8 Executive Review Board who supposedly was going to look 9 out for them and take care of the problem. They didn't 10 go to the Employee Concerns Program and they didn't go g 11 to Little Harbor.

9 12 (g

f-They came to somebody that they didn't 13 even know. They didn't --

I never met those 14 individuals before in my life. They looked up my name 15 in the phone book and they called me and said, "We got 16 this problem."

17 Now, I relayed that information to l 18 Little Harbor and Little Harbor relayed that 19 information to NU. Little Harbor directed those 20 individuals to the Employee Concerns Program.

$ 21 You talked today about the effectiveness I. 22 of the Employee Concerns Program. How many 5

l 23 interventions have been taking place by Little Harbor 24 and those of us that have sent them to Little Harbor in O- POST REPORTING SERVICE i HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

\

73 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 1 lieu of people taking the option to go to the Employee 2 Concerns Program or their boss? That's a better 3 indication of the effectiveness of the Employee 4 Concerns Program.

5 Therefore, you need to get together with 6 Little Harbor and Northeast Utilities and make a 7 determination as to how many of those issues Billie 8 Garde or somebody else in the Little Harbor 9 organization has intervened. And, therefore, I suggest 10 to you that the effectiveness that we're talking about

g 11 of the Employee Concerns Program is substantially u

fg 12 reduced because of that. Okay? In fact, my personal V

13 opinion is that there's more consulting going on than J

14 needs to be.

15 Now, I'm not an individual, even though 16 Mr. Kenyon us in my group as being "Gotcha" type people 17 -- Little Harbor's job is to observe how NU -- how the i 18 system is working and how NU deals with it. It's not 4

g

! 19 their job to notify NU that the problem exists. It's 20 not their job to help mitigate it. It's not their job

$ 21 to help mediate it.

I 22 And because of all their involvement, it g

s l 23 has effectively looked to everybody that the ECP is 24 effective, notwithstanding the job that Mr. Morgan is POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 4

74 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1

-doing because I think he's doing a good job.

2 But think the I effectiveness of the 3 Employee Concerns Program itself is undermined by -the 4 oversight group that you put in there to look at it.

5 And that needs to be changed. And I'm not trying to-6 publicly chastise Billie Garde, John Beck, John Griffin

'7 or anybody else, because they're doing a good job. But 8 I think that my observations of what goes on is that 9 they're reducing the effectiveness but it looks to 10 everybody like the ECP is getting the people and doing g 11 a better job. Big problem.

-v 12 There isn't any question in my mind that 13 the issue that Mark raised a few minutes ago -about 14 lowering the standards is an absolute, No question

-15 about it. We had a standard that says this company 16 fully meets the expectations. We changed that to a 17 world-class position and essentially took lower levels-

{ 18 that were levels that were lower before and we made 19 those acceptable. You can look at it any way you want 20 to look at it. It's a reduction of -the standards.

$ 21 It's absolutely not acceptable,

.t 22 And I think it's in response to the 5

'l 23 Union of Concerned Scientists response to what they saw 24 at the December 12 Commission meeting and- it's also a O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

75 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 1 response to the criticism by our group towards Little 2 Harbor with regards to assigning those marks.

3 What we saw at the Commission meeting 4 was 15 out of 16 attributes that were in the yellow 5 range and only one was Fully Meets Expectations, which 6 was green. That's not at all what it looks like today.

7 Problem. So you need to address that.

8 There wm a Finding No. 5. I only wrote 9 it down as No. 5. And it deals with mutual respect l 10 that went on today and it was part of Little Harbor's g 11 review. I've got to tell you something. I worked at 9

12 Millstone for 13 years. talked a O 13 contractors. And I will I

tell to lot of you, contractors at i 14 Millstone are treated like dirt. Okay? They're 15 treated like dirt. That's not changed.

16 You can come up and show me lots of 17 examples of people that are contractors that are

{ 18 relying on keeping their job that will come forward and 19 identify to you that they're being treated properly.

20 And I can show you just as many people who will come

$ 21 forward and say they're not treated like the average 1

- 22 employee in there. They're treated like dirt.

5 l 23 That's an atmosphere that has to change.

24 And when that changes, the culture's going to change O POST R2 PORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

76 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O 3^"u^*v 2 1* 3 1 because that's going to show an improvement in the 2 people and the way they're doing business.

3 The Executive Review Board, for my part 4 so far with regard to the issue on the Nuclear Records 5 Department, has not shown me its ability to adequately 6 review an issue of firing or termination, a letter in a 7 folder or whatever kind of discipline, because the 8 facts were before them and they still fired those two 9 individuals. It doesn't make any sense at all to me

! 10 what happened. And you really need to look into that.

$ 11 As I told you, we U

need a commitment.

(g 12 I'd like to hear a commitment tonight by Little Harbor V

13 that they're not going to involve themselves in 14 identifying issues to Northeast Utilities, that they're 15 going to take inputs from us and those of us that are 16 getting concerns and they're going to follow NU's 17 response and identification of that issue and see how l 18 they react to it and correct the problem.

19 But I'll tell you something. When you 20 identify it to NU -- and I'm not -- again, I'm not O

. 21 trying to say to NU "We're coing to let you find it."

l

= 22 But if we're going to show the world that they're E

l 23 effective in doing it, we need to let them find it.

24 The issue isn't that there's a "Gotcha".

POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

77 JAt R 98 1 We've just got to let them find the problem so that 2 that group can effectively evaluate whether they're 3 able to handle the problem.

4 Once the problem is identified right 5 now, folks, they're going to handle it. They want to 6 start up. They'll dump every resource they have to 7

have to get that problem resolved, especially when they 8 know Little Harbor knows about it and we know about it 9 and it's going to be public.

10 But how about looking at them where they l 11 find the problem, they fix the problem and these guys

\ -

p 12 evaluate it? So I'd like to see a commitment from them O 13 that says they're not going to get involved in it.

14 DR. TRAVERS: Don, can I ask you a 15 question?

16 MR. DELCORE: Yes.  !

17 DR. TRAVERS: In fairness to others who l 18 may want to ask us questions -- and we can come back to 19 you --

20 MR. DELCORE: Okay.

$ 21 DR. TRAVERS: It seems like you have k.

22 more in this segment.

E l 23 MR. DELCORE: Okay.

24 DR. TRAVERS: I'm not going to wait POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

78

(} Ali AR 98 1 until the end, but --

2 MR. DELCORE: Okay.

3 DR. TRAVERS: --

in fairness to others 4 who might want to ask questions, do you have many more?

5 MR. DELCORE: I've just got a couple 6 more conaents.

7 DR. TRAVERS: Go ahead.

8 MR. DELCORE: It does take time to solve 9 these problems. And for my part, more time's got to be 10 allotted here. We are shortening the time up and we g 11 don't want to.

2 12 There's two things we need to accomplish 13 here. Let's have more time to get a better appraisal 14 of their effectiveness in dealing with problems and 15 let's have some allotted specific period where we don't 16 see problems or we see the norm like we see in the rest 17 of the industry and again they were effective in l 18 resolving it.

19 And, again, same as I pointed out this 20 morning about the -- earlier, I mean, about the wheel

$ 21 and the Restart Assessment Plan, I think we're going I

. 22 really too fast here and we need to give them a period E

l 23 to evaluate it.

24 In closing, we brought a lot of problems fh V POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

79 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 1 to you. A number of them are very important aspects 2 about the ECP and workplace environment arena. I would 3 feel very comfortable, I know a lot of other people out 4 there would feel very comfortable if the NRC would 5 convey to the public that you won't allow a restart 6 until these issues are resolved. Okey? Not that they 7 7 have a plan, not that they submit something to you and 8 say, "In the long-term, we're going to have this

9 fixed." We would like to see them resolved. I don't 10 want to see any more plans. I don't want to see any g 11 programs. I've observed them since 1968. And I don't 12 want to see any more.

{~ I want to see it fixed. And 13 that's why I'm here.

14 Thank you.

15 DR TRAVERS: Thank you.

16 (Applause) 17 MS. NANCY BURTON: Good evening. My l 18 name is Nancy Burton. I'm an attorney --

19 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Please use the 20 mike.

O

, 21 MS. BURTON: Oh, I'm sorry. Pardon me, b

22 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Thank you.

l 23 MS. BURTON: My name is Nancy Burton.

24 I'm an attorney. I don't live around here. I live in POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

80 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

(} JANUARY 27, 1998 1 Connecticut, in Redding, Connecticut. And so I haven't 2 had occasion to read very much lately about what has 3 been going on here. But I thought the plants were shut 4 down. And I have just recently been reading that there 5 are plans by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission to 6 consider allowing one or more of them to restart.

7 And I must tell you to convey to you 8 from where I live, we think you people must be mad, 9 absolutely mad. I have three comments that I'd like to 10 address to remarks that have been made this evening g 11 that have just struck me as very remarkable.

s gg 12 A Mr. John Beck, who is President of the

'V 13 Little Harbor Consultants group, said here that the 14 plants here in Waterford do not have to be world-class 15 in order to be permitted to operate and generate 16 electricity, 17 I think that's what he said. And I'm l 18 sure he'll correct me if he didn't say that. But I'd 19 like him to understand that in Connecticut, we have a 20 first-class state. This isn't the Third World. New

$ 21 London, Waterford, Mystic, these are first-class b

- 22 communities and they hold the future really for 5

l 23 Connecticut with all of the possibilities for tourism 24 and all the natural beauty that is here. We are not POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 o

81 MEETIN RE I T UNITS 1 second or third-class. We are first-class.

2 And why a consultant would be permitted 3 to start at a level which is lower than tops, I don't 4 underr eand that because this is a technology which is 5 perilous and it requires absolute adherence to the 6 highest standards. Maybe he can address that. And I 7 hope he will, 8 I heard from the gentleman here on the 9 right that the level of allegations from workers at a 10 nuclear power plant is a measure of the health of the g 11 nuclear power plant.

9 g 12 Is that what I heard you say, sir?

O 13 DR. TRAVERS: It's a measure of -- it's 14 one measure that we use and are using to assess the 15 health of the safety culture or safety-conscious work 16 environment.

17 MS. BURTON: Right. That's what I

$ 18 thought you said. And you were referring to 19 allegations. The allegations by Millstone workers are 20 the highest in the United States. Is that what you 21 said?

I= 22 DR. TRAVERS: That's what I said.

5 l 23 MS. BURTON: Now, are these allegations 24 allegations which have been found to be founded?

O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

82 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1 DR. TRAVERS: We're recording the number 2 of allegations, not ones the that have been 3 substantiated by the agency, but just the numbar of 4 incoming allegations, alleged either technical issues 5 or harassment, intimidation, retaliation, the HIRD 6 issues, those kinds of things.

7 MS. BURTON: And have you kept a tally 8 of all the allegations that have come in?

9 DR. TRAVERS: That have come in?

10 MS, BURTON: Yes.

11 DR. TRAVERS: Yes. That's what I was 12 referring to.

O 13 MS. BURTON: Are they all investigated?

14 DR. TRAVERS: They are all evaluated, 15 yes.

16 MS. BURTON: And what proportion have 17 been found to be frivolous and without merit?

l 18 DR. TRAVERS: Don't know the number.

19 MS. BURTON: You don't know the number?

20 Have any?

$ 21 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Well, ir, our k-22 evaluation of allegations, a few turn out to be I

l 23 unimportant. But that's not --

24 A VOICE: Frivolous.

Ob POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

83 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1 CHAIRPERSON LANNINGt Yes. But what is 2 more important is that we have received thq allegation. .

3 That's very important to the NRC, regardless of whether 4 or not it's proved to have merit.

5 MS. BURTON: That is quite a record to 6 have for a nuclear power plant. I was -- I'm sorry. I

'7 was listening carefully to Helen Pastis -- is it? And 8 I understand that you have been at the plant recently?

9 You were referring to December 8 through the 12th and 10 January -5 through the 9th. Was that December 1997 and g 11 January 1998? Is that correct?

.V 12 MS. PASTIS: Yes.

13 Am I also correct in my understanding 14 that during that -period of time, the plants had been 15 shut down?

16 MS. PASTIS: Mm-hmm.

17 MS BURTON: And would you agree with me i 18 that nuclear power plants do have potential for high J. - 19 danger if they're not run properly?

f. 20 CHAIRPERSON LALNING: Stis is not -- can o

. 21 I just interrupt please a second?

l-- 22 MS. BURTON: I wish you wouldn't.

l- 23 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Well, I know. But 24 I don't really appreciate the way you're asking the O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

84 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

({} JANUARY 27, 1998 1 questions.

2 MS. BURTON: Well, please don't try to

-3 restrict my verbiage. Thank you.

4 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: We're trying to 1

5 inform and be responsive to the questions. But you're 6 really not asking questions in the sense of getting 7 information.

! 18 MS, BURTON. I think I am.

9 What I'd like to know, Ms. Pastis -- '

10 excuse me. Yes -- is, if I understood you correctly, 2g 11 that during this recent period of time when~you were f . ,

12 conducting-interviews and evaluation

.O, at the plant, you 13 understood that there are still problem areas in-areas 14 that you discussed in terms of the safety-conscious l 15 work environment. Is that correct? I think that's 16 what I heard you say.

17 MR. McKEE: That's correct.

18 MS. BURTON: Yes. I thought so. And,

. 19 also, that there are continuing problems with something-20 --

a new acronym I've learned tonight, harassment, o-21 intimidation, retaliation -and discrimination. I'm ,

[-  !

22 really shocked to understand that that is an acronym  !

-l_ 23 that is part of your discourse in the regulation of the 24 nuclear power industry. There is no other industry I POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

85 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

(]) JANUARY 27, 1998 1 that I'm aware of where there would be such an acronym 2 nor would it be permitted to exist, let alone be a 3 continuing problem, 4 So what I'm trying to say is that I'm 5 having a very hard time understanding how there can be 6 a continuing problem of harassment, intimidation, 7 retaliation, and discrimination problems with the 8 safety-conscious work environment efforts while these 9 plants are not even in operation. And I hope that you 10 will seriously consider that.

Q 11 And I want to leave time for others to 12 speak. Thank you. 4 13 DR TRAVERS: Thank you.

14 (Applause) 15 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Susan? Susan 16 hasn't asked questions.

17 MS, PERRY LUXTON:- Susan Perry Luxton 18 from Waterford, Connecticut. I'd like to -- for Little I 19 Hirbor, also. But I want to a' art with the NRC because f 20 I like to.

$ 21 Let's see. Now, we're talking about c 1

22 safety-conscious work environment, Am right in g I

[ 23 understainding that Millstone remains at the top of the 24 list for allegations from the NRC on a yearly basis?

O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT. (800) 262-4102 5

k

f a

86

() All AR 98 1 Isn't that what we were just talking about? They have ,

i 2 the most allegations?

3 DR. TRAVERS: That's what I said. And 4 that's correct.

5 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay. Now, if 6 Millstone is on the top of the list, what has the NRC

! 7 done in regard to what's happened in the last six 1 8 months or in the last, say, the last year regarding 9 these allegations? I want to know specifien.

10 DR. TRAVERS: Well, we've done a host of g 11 things, I mean by virtue of our programmatic look at s

12 safety-conscious work environment. But most directly, 13 in response to individual allegations, we evaluate the 14 allegations. We try to address the issue and get back 15 to the alleger to tell him how -- or her how it's being 16 df9 positioned.

17 But in the broader sense, we're here. I 18 mean there's an order that's in place at Millstone that

~I 3.

. 19 recognizes the historical problems at Millstone. The 20 plants are shut down for about two years, a little bit

$ 21 more. The NkC has a special organization that's

' I 22 focused directly on that issue, amongst others, in our l 23 Restart Assessment Plan.

24 So, hopefully, we've had some success in POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

__=

l i i

87 I O "9"Y^aNPfsl a"" l l

. 1 communicating over the months that we've been looking i

i 2 at this issue and others just what I think you're j 3 asking. And that is, you know, what are we doing.

4 Well, we're doing a lot.

5 We're evaluating. We've approved an 6 independent contractor to help us assess, an

7 independent contractor who we feel has the requisite

)

i 8 expertise that some of us don't because these areas do 9 not encompass hard requirements by the Nuclear 10 Regulatory Commission. There is no 1.cquirement for a g 11 safety-conscious work environment in their development.

u 12 Nevertheless, we recognize that in the absence of one, 13 plants can develop problems that can bear on the safety 14 and operational safety of the facility.

I 15 So we've done quite a lot. We've 16 emphasized -- and I think you've heard Chairman Jackson 17 emchasize her commitment to evaluating these issues l 18 before restart. And that's, in sort of a capsule --

19 MS, PERRY LUXTON: Okay, In a broad, 20 general sense.

4

$ 2.1 DR. TRAVERS: Well, it's a little bit 22 general. But I could go on for --

l 23 MS DERRY LUXTON: Okay. Because --

24 well, I guess maybe I should have been more specific on POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102-

. , , - , - - - . . , , ,--,,,,n- - , - , - -c -

~ - - - , .-

c- - . . - - - - - , , -.

_ - _ _ - _ - - . - ~_.- -. - .- - - . _ - . - . . . _ - - - - . _ . .

l 88 O "9^>5^ AMU 918 1 1 my question because I see, instead -- my perspective on 2 what you've done -- I see NU has done a lot of changing 3 and they have done -- and they have made improvements. I e ,

4 I woulo admit that.

5 But I don't see you as doing much l 6 because I think you're deferring everything to Little 7 Harbor. For instance, the chilling effect. What have 8 you been doing about this chilling effect incident that l

, 9 happened with the training, in the summer of 1997 with 10 training, chilling effect? Have you done -- have you 11 talked to these allegers, these hundred allegers or 12 whatever -- okay. Twelve times six, 60 allegers. Say 4

13 you've had six allegations in a year. Have you talked 1

l 14 to those allegers? Have you investigated? Have you 15 investigated their allegations? That's what I want to 16 know.

17 DR. TRAVERS: That issue is under l 18 evaluation, in fact, by the -- by the agency.

19 MS. PERRY LUXTON: That issue is under 20 evaluation.

$ 21 DR. TRAVERS
That's right. That's all 1

. 22 we can say to you.

I l 23 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay. Let's see.

24 What is -- I don't-understand --

POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 4

- . - ~ . . - , . _ _

89 MEETIN R !I TO! UNITS 1 DR. TRAVERS: And the reason I can only 2 say that is because in the process that we use for 3 those evaluations, we don't talk in public about them--

4 MS, PERRY LUXTON: Oh. Okay.

5 DR. TRAVERS: -- until they're complete.

6 MS. PERRY LUXTON: All right. How about 7 this? What is the NRC doing to coordinate what Little 8 Harbor Consultants has found and what is coming 9 directly to the NRC? Because there are allegations 10 coming to the NRC. Little Harbor is involved with P 11 incidents that have occurred in the last six months.

12 And so in order for the public, you and NU to get a 13 clear picture of the whole of the safety-conscious work 14 environment, if you want to use NU's term, the whole 15 culture of what's going on at Millstone, you need -- we 16 need -- you need to coordinate with them. Have you 17 done that?

18 MR. McKEE: Well, the allegations don't 19 come directly to Little Harbor. It's either -- either 20 the concerns are brought to the Employee Concerns

$ 21 Program. In some cases, issues are brought to us via,

k. 22 you know, allegations, i

l 23 MS, PERRY LUXTON: Right. That's what I 24 mean. Allegations, Mr. McKee. Your allegations and O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

90 MEETIN R I STOllE UNITS 1 then their findings. Have you been coordinating that?

2 MR. McKEE: Well, some we've assessed 3 the allegations that have gone to the Employee Concerns 4 Program in comparison to those that coes to us. And 5 it's not necessarily a one-for-one correlation. Those

, 6 issues that go to Employee Concerns may or may not --

7 sometimes they also may be brought to the NRC.

8 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Well, I guess I'm 9 asking that, Mr. McKee, because it inspection reports I 10 have not seen lately any allegation violations or any g 11 allegations addressed in inspection reports, u

12 MR. McKEE: Yes. In inspection reports 13 you won't. You'll see that the allegation issues -- it 14 was mentioned before the process calls for our review 15 of every allegation that comes in and the follow-up 16 process. Oftentimes those iusues are covered by 17 inspections. But the inspections don't go for --

18 actually, you know, protection- of the alleger, don't

. 19 necessarily identify the alleger. But they are -- they 20 are issued and identified.

3 21 MS. PERRY LUXTON: But aren't they 1

22 identified in the inspection report as coming from an l 23 allegation or not?

24 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: No.

O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

91 Al AR 98 v 1 MR. McKEE: No.

2 MS. PERRY LUXTON: They're not? Okay..

3 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: No. That's very 4 important. There's a reason that we don't do that.

5 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Confidentiality?

6 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Exactly.

7 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay.

8 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: And we don't talk 9 about allegations in the public forum. May I ask --

10 MR. DELCORE: But, Phil, Little Harbor g 11 does get allegationc.

s 12 DR. TRAVERS: You're next.

13 MR. DELCORE: I know. I mean I'm 14 .

personally aware that they do get them.

15 DR. TRAVERS: All right. So --

16 MR. DELCORE: Because I've given them to 17 them. So don't say that they only go to NU and you l 18 guys.

19 MR. McKEE: Yes. But the process calls f 20 for them to, you know, transfer those, you know, to the

$ 21 Employee Concerns Program or to the NRC.

I- 22 MS. PERRY LUXTON: All right. May I ask l 23 you another question about allegations? The 24 allegations that you have received, how many of them O _

POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

7 92 M kRY 98 1 have been harassment, intimidation, retaliation and 2 discrimination issues? Does anyone know? '

3 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: For '97, about a 4 third.

5 MS. PERRY LUXTON: A third of the how 6 many approximate, did you say?

7 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: 60, I think it is.

8 Well, there were a little over 60.

9 MS. PERRY LUXTON: 60. Se a third of 60 10 are HIRD.

!R 11 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: They involved 12 allegations of HIRD.

13 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay.

14 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Of alleged 15 harassment, intimidation or chilling effect.

16 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Right. Okay. All 17 right. I'd like to ask Little Harbor something. I'd 18 like to speak a minute about structured interviews.

s. 19 Your process of assessing what the safety culture is f 20 coming up , you know, your next round of structure

$ 21 interviews. I was concerned -- and I'm addressing this l 22 to John Beck. I was concerned with a memo that was l 23 sent to managers in NU, Briefing Sheet for Millstone 24 Leadership, Little Harbor Consultants Interviews, O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

93 MEETIN R fiI TO! UNITS 1 February 1998. It says " Initiating action" and then it 2 talks about the next set of structured interviews will 3 be conducted by Little Harbor on February 2 through the 4 20th and it talks about the issues.

5 What upset me the most about this -- I 6 don't mind that you're informing people, that managers 7 inform their employees that structured interviews will 8 be starting. But what did bother me about it was at 9 the bottom cf the page, there's a paragraph that said 10 ""This interview process compares the Millstone g 11 environment with key attributes of a, quote, ' ideal u

12 safety-conscious work environment.' It is a critical 13 component of Little Harbor Consultants' understanding 14 of our employees' confidence level" -- of course, this 15 is NU talking to their people now. "It's a critical 16 component of Little Harbor's understanding of our 17 employees' confidence level to raise a safety concern 18 without fear of retaliation. NRC Chairman Shirley Ann 19 Jackson said, quote, 'The Commission will not approve f 20 the restart of any of the Millstone nuclear plants

$ 21 until it is satisfied that employees feel free to raise i 22 any safety concern without the fear of retaliation.'"

g l 23 I saw that as a message in a subtle way 24 for managers to say to their workers, "We're at the POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

94 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS Q JANUARY 27, 1998 1 home stretch, guys. And Shirley Jackson says we can't 2 make it, we can't get there without employees feeling 3 free to raise safety concerns. So, in not so many 4 words, you know what you have to say."

5 Now, I don't work at Millstone, but I --

6 you know, I'm not naive, either. I mean these 7 managers, they say, " Hey". You know? Huh. And then 8 another thing is their raises are being held up for 60 9 days after the restart. So you -- so what's -- so 10 that's a disincentive to saying what you real feel, p 11 And I feel this is like an incentive to say what they u

12 think that you should say. You know what I'm saying, 13 John? I mean it may be a little thing, but it's --

14 these little things send messages to managers and 15 managers interpret them in ways and then they say that 16 to employees.

17 MR. BECK: I'll try to respond to that.

) 18 Your observation is a good one. Let me tell you what 19 our intention was. Our intention is to have as many 20 people asked to be interviewed because of the time and

$ 21 effort it takes to set up the number of people, to 1

22 select them out of the organization, 1:r send them the l 23 message. And this memo that went to management, who 24 ultimately have to release people for interviews and so O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

95 A AR 98 1 forth, was intended to encourage them to do so, period, 2 and nothing more, nothing less.

3 I'm sensitive, however -- and you did 4 let us know when you saw that that -- what your point 5 of view was. And we were responsive to that in making 6 certain that other announcements that went to che site l 7 as a whole did not mention that fact.

8 Now, it's no secret that Chairman 9 Jackson has said that. It's no secret that that's the 10 kind of accountability she's going to look for in that P 11 work force. But we made certain that, for example, c!

12 things that went out were to the point, that goes to 13 the entire site, at least as far as we were concerned 14 in our further comments, did not include that 15 particular admonition. And, for example, one that was 16 issued January 19 that went to the site as a whole that 17 covered our interviews, one that everybody on the site l 18 read, said nothing about that and --

19 MS PERRY LUXTON: So how many people 20 got this? Would you venture --

21 MR. BECK: The management, the upper-1

= 22 level managers at the site. But the people as a whole 5

l 23 got the to-the-point announcement. It did not say 24 that. I don't think it's a secret that --

O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

r 96 MEETING R !I TOli UNITS 1 MS. PERRY LUXTON: I know. But that's 2 not the point.

3 MR. BECY,1 And I understand the subtlety 4 --

5 MS. PERRY LUXTON: That's isn't the C point.

7 MR. BECK: --

and that's we were sure 8 that it did not get mentioned in any broad spread 9 announcement of the structured interviews. And I go 10 further, that suggestions like the one you made are il very helpful to us in doing our job in the best 12 possible way we can. We appreciate it. And are also 13 confident that you won't stop making those suggestions.

14 MS, PERRY LUXTON: Well, I -- you know, 15 that's what I'm here for. That's what we're all in the 16 public -- that's what we're here for.

17 MR. BECK: And we appreciate that, 18 MS, PERRY LUXTON: Yes. Okay. Well, I i 19 accept that. It's a little late, a little too late.

20 But -- because it's already sent out. But -. don't go

$ 21 away.

!. 22 Now, another thing I have to ask you 5

l 23 about is in regard to what Mr. Delcore said. Would you 24 commit to not being -- to not letting NU know when a O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

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97 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O 3^"o^av 27 1998 1 situation arises, letting it know --

watching and 2 overseeing how NU responds to an incident and just l 3 seeing, stepping back and seeing every step of the way l 4 how they resolve or whatever they do, whatever the l 5 incident is? Coua /ou commit to that? Do you see his 6 point? I agree with it.

. 7 MR. BECK: I'm not sure I fully 8 understand it. But let me respond to his question and 9 to your reiteration.

10 As you know, we've got an oversight plan g 11 and that oversight plan was developed in response to u

12 the original NRC order issued back in the fall of 1996, 13 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Right.

14 MR, BECK: In fact, we had to submit it 15 and it had to be approved by the NRC prior to our 16 beginning to implement it and do what the order asked 17 us to do.

l 18 That oversight plan defines our >

! 19 parameters for operating in this oversight function 20 And with respect to issues that come up in the course O

, 21 of our oversight activities, it states very clearly I 22 that if something is happening that we think requires g

l 23 intervention on our part, we are obligated to do so and 24 to tell the company and the public that we have done O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

98 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS Q JANUARY 27, 1998 1 it. And we have religiously exercised that obligation.

2 And until it's changed, we'll have to continue doing 3 that.

4 How, on the other hand, many, many, many 5

more times our activities are what I would consider to 6 be benign in the sense that we're doing exactly what 7 you just requested. We're watching what happens.

8 We're evaluating what happens. We say nothing to the 9 company about what's happening unless it requires 10 intervention and it does lead to recommendation our

$ 11 part that we share with you and with everyone else, u

12 including company management.

13 Until that plan in changed -- if you 14 want to suggest that it be changed and the NRC can 15 entertain it, then that's their call to make. But 16 we're obligated to address it as it's written today.

17 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay. Don't leave, i 18 I suggest that you change the plan according to those

. 19 lines that I just said before. And I don't want to 20 repeat it. Do you know what I mean? Are you

! 21 listening?

I 22 g Don't say anything, Mr. McKee? Wait a

[ 23 minute.

24 Do you understand what I mean? Do you O

POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

99 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1

1 understand what I mean? Because give -- I'll give you 2 an example. The QA situation that occurred in 3 November, Little Harbor was reading through material 4 from the QA inspectors and they actually saw the 5 profile of exactly what Ms. Garde had written down as 6 far as her curve when the workers get to such a point 7 where they are so frustrated that you know they're 8 going to blow. And she went to you -- you guys told me 9 this yourself. I'm not --

this isn't inside 10 information, p 11 You realized when you read this thing u

12 that the QA inspectors were going to blow. And so that 13 you went to NU and said, "You have got a problem on 14 your hands here. You've got to do this. You've got to 15 do that", which they did. Which they did. Which NU 16 did.

17 Now, why shouldn't that QA have blown?

l 18 Because it's between the management and those workers.

19 If they're not handling the whole thing right, then we f 20 should see what they're not doing right and help them

$ 21 change. But not enable them like you've been doing.

1

- 22 And I know you people are only doing it out of the I

l 23 goodness of your heart for the workers maybe. You 24 know? But I don't see that they're serving their O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l

100 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

(]) JANUARY 27, 1998 1 proper function that the NRC would really like them to 2 do.

3 of course, you people -- they're really ,

4 doing your work l for you, as far as I'm concerned. You '

5 haven't done anything.

6 But be that as it may, I'd like to 7 change that part of the order. And I'm making a 8 request for the record for that, Do you understand 9 that? Okay.

10 Now, Mr. Beck, Mr. Beck, the second g 11 question I have for you is on the structured u

12 interviews, when someone is in the -- say I want to ',

(J~g 13 in a structured interview -- or you're going to do .

14 random sampling. Okay?

15 MR. BECK: Mm-hmm.

16 MS. PERRY LUXTON: And I'm in the 17 department, llow do I know -- do you send the secretary 18 of the manager --

do you give the manager the

. 19 information and then you tend to the secretary and the 20 secretary gives it to me? Because I got an allegation

$ 21 from somebody --

l 22 A VOICE: Speak louder.

l 23 MS. PEPRY LUXTON: -- or someono who 24 upset during -- in the plant, that this person felt O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

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l 101 MEETIN R I STOli UNITS 1 that because the manager's secretary was involved with 2 passing out things or whatever, that this person 3 thought that they'd be able to ID who actually talked 4 in the structured interviews. And then when the actual 5 dialogue of the interviews were published, then the ,

6 person even had more reason to believe that that person 7 would able to be targeted as the one who said that.

8 A VOICE: Absolutely.

9 MS. PERRY LUXTON: So is there a way 10 that you can make sure that it's anonymous, that don't g 11 get those managers' secretaries involved or anything?

U 12 Go directly from NU to the random people? Get the 13 gist?

i 14 MR. BECK: We're sensitive to that 15 criticism.

16 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay.

17 MR. BECK: Although, let me tell you l 18 that I don't know of a single incident or incidents in 19 our previous structured interviews -- and we have-made f 20 it clear to people that we --

if there is any

$ 21 indication that you've been coerced before or after the 1 22 interviews, we want to hear back from you because we l 23 explained why we're doing them and why it's important 24 that we get their unfettered views of what's happening O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

102 A AR 98 1 at that site today. And we didn*t get any feedback 2 that said anybody had been intimidated, harassed before 3 or after the interviews.

4 Now, this --

and we did use for 5 coordination purposes, because we were new at the site 6 --

we barely knew where the Men and Ladies Rooms were.

7 And as far as getting around the organization, we 8 needed some help from somebody who understood it. We 9 don't need that help any longer. And this time we're 1

l 10 doing it all from within our office. We've only sought

$g 11 cooperation by management to give us interview rooms 12 scattered around the plant where we can do them. We do 13 all the contacting and we contact the individuals 14 directly. Management does know that the process is 15 going on because when people leave their normal work

16 stations, they have to have permission of their 17 supervisor to do so. So it's no secret that people are

, 18 being interviewed.

, 19 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay, 20 MR. BECK: So we also are confident,

$ 21 given our experience before, that nobody is getting

$' 22 undue pressure. And certainly, there's nobody present l 23 during the interview. They're one-on-one, just us and 24 the individual employee.

POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

103 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay. I don't think 2 the person was involved so much with coercion or 3 concern about that but more anonymity. He was -- he or 4 she was concerned about anonymir.y.

l 5 How, a question I have. You mentioned 6 problem areas. You were going to go in and deal with l 7 the problem areas. Have the problem areas increased?

8 Have any problem areas increased since you first 9 identified problems areas months ago or have they 10 diminished as in some problem areas have been -- are R 11 resolved and there's no longer problem areas or have E'

12 there been more problem areas added?

13 MR. BECK: USat we did, we passed along 14 what we consider to be problem areas as a result of 15 that first set of interviews. The company had a number 16 of others, in fact, probably more than we did 17 originally. So a list started with some -- between 30 l -18 and 40 areas that needed attention.

-g

! 19 The company's process in resolving that 20 was to identify an action plan that needed to be

$ 21 implemented to deal with whatever the particular issue 0 22 might be. And they did that. And they've been going l- 23 through the process of exercising those action plans to 24 resolve whatever the issues were.

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MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

] JA! NARY 27, 1998 1 We're watching them do that. We're 2 keeping track of what they're doing to resolve the 3 problem areas. And there are fewer of them today in a 4 so-called open condition than they started with. There 5 have been a few pop up along the way over the last 6 couple of months. Lut the net number is less than it 7 was in the beginning.

8 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay. So that's the 9 --

10 MR. BECK: It's down in the teens now, 11 as I best recall.

12 MS, PERRY LUXTON: The teens of problem 13 areas?

14 MR. BECK: A few areas that they think 15 need special attention, yes.

16 MS. PERRY LUXTON: You mean in the 17 teens? There's problem areas in the teens?

18 MR. BECK: Yes. But they started

! 19 between 30 and 40.

20 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay.

$ 21 MR. BECK: So now it's down to 13, 12.

I 22 MS, PERRY LUXTON: Okay.

l 23 MR. BECK: I don't know.

24 MR. McKEE: I think that's one of their O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

105 MEETING R I TO!1 UNITS 1 indicators. And it's 10 is the number, I think.

2 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay. So it's going 3 --

okay. All right. Nou, I don't remember being 4 simultaneously revolved -- revolved? Simultaneously 5 informed of this maintenance problem that occurred in l

6 December, January. Or I haven't heard anything more on 7 this QA thing. Now, how come everybody knows, like the 8 NRC and NU and you, but we in the public don't know 9 about this? Why haven't you informed us on this?

10 MR. BECK: We talked about it today, p 11 And perhaps Ms. Garde --

U 12 MS. GARDE: We didn't intervene, as the 13 word that you used, in the maintenance. I mean if you 14 were scripting our involvement in the maintenance issue 15 we talked about, it would be exactly what you have 16 described; as we attended all the meetings, we watched 17 it evolve and we reported on its outcome, l 18 In the context of the other two.

19 incidents that Don mentioned, the manpower incident and 20 the QC inspectors, in those two cases -- well, first --

$ 21 let's take them one by one. First of all, the manpower i 22 issue. And, Don, I want to correct a few things that l 23 you said in terms of your factual presentation.

24 I was at the ERB meeting at which those POST REPORTING SERVICE i HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

106 MBETI!JG RE: MILLSTONE UNITS Q JANUARY 27, 1998 1 terminations were --

2 MS, PERRY LUXTONt Explain what the ERB 3 meeting is?

4 MS. GARDE:

l Executive Review Board.

5 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay.

6 MS. GARDE: It's the Board that was set 7 up in order to provide a check and balance to 8 disciplinary actions to ensure they're not potentially 9 retaliatory.

10 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay.

Q 11 MS, GARDE: The information presented at t t' 12 that meeting was that those women were not going to be 13 fired. They were going to be transferred. And the 14 information presented at the Executive Review Board 15 meeting gave no indication whatsoever that they've been 16 involved in protected activity. So, therefore, there 17 were no red flags raised at that meeting at all.

18 MS. PERRi' LUXTON: Right. But so there-

! "i - so, therefore, it didn't work.

20 MR. DELCORE: It didn't work.

$ 21 MS, PERRY LUXTON: And how come Ms.

I g

22 Pastis says it's doing such a wonderful job?

l 23 MS, GARDE: Wait, wait. It did not work 24 in that case. That's a very good example of where it O -

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107

, MEETIN R MIRSTOli UNITS 1 didn't work. And that -- the fact that it did not work 2 in that case revealed a lot of holes in how information 3 came to the Executive Review Board and problems with 4 that process which are getting and I think have pretty 5 much gotten fixed. All right?

6 When Don called me over the weekend with 7 that information because the women had called him, I 8 didn't think that he was calling me to just tell me 9 about it. I believed, as we had discussed, he was i 10 calling me to make sure something got done about it.

4

$ 11 Our charter requires that they go to 12 ECP, That's another thing that we identified as a 13 result of the manpower incident; that is, that those 14 contractors weren't told about ECP. They had to learn 15 about the ECP from us and/or Don. Don could have sent 16 them directly to t.he company. He didn*t. I don't 17 think it's necessarily fair for you to hand them over 18 to us and then criticize us because we do anything I

. 19 about that. I don't think that's really fair. All f 20 right? I'll take fair criticism. But that one's not I 21 fair.

I 22 And in this case, we're talking about g

[ 23 two single mothers, three weeks before Christmas 24 potentially being out of a job. And when it was clear O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800)-262-4102

108 MEETIN R !IL STOli UNITS 1 to me, because I had been at that Executive Review 2 Board meeting, that the information the Executive 3 Review Board got was wrong, I passed that information 4 on to the company and said, "Little Harbor needs to 5 know why this happened." The company immediately acted 6 on thati that is, they put the people back on payroll.

7 No question that between putting them back on payroll 8 and today, it's taken far too long to try to get a 9 resolution of those issues. No dispute.

10 But you don't see Little Harbor f!! 11 protecting the company from that, those facts. Those n 12 facts are out in the public, shared with you, delivered V

13 in our message and considered in our evaluations.

14 Likewise with the QA/QC issues. How 15 that has been missed and -- how that was missed by the 16 company and how it's now been handled is definitely a 17 part of our whole overview process and overview and 18 analysis that left the company in red on the issue of 5 19 how they're handling or avoiding or dealing with HIRD 20 issues.

$ 21 I don't say -- think that Little Harbor i 22 could stand up here and commit to you we're going to l 23 let events blow, as you described, if we observe them 24 getting ready to blow. I don't think that that's O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, Cy (800) 262-4102

109

() A AR 98 1 responsible oversight.

2 That doesn't mean we're laying out a 3 path by which we're saying, "Here. Go this way. You 4 do this. We won't say anything about it. The public 5 won't know about it. It will all get covered up."

6 That's not happening. What is -- what we're observing, 7 whether or not we feel it's necessary to intervene, is 8 being incorporated and reported to you and it's being a 9 part of the analysis that we're making, And the 10 company is being held accountable.

p 11 If we were saying, "Do this and we'll 0

12 keep our mouth shut about that incident", you're right; 13 we should be fired. We're not doing that.

14 MS. PERRY LUXTON: I'm not saying you 15 should be fired.

16 MS. GARDE: No. I understand that. But 17 I want to --

l 18 MS, PERRY LUXTON: I agree with that.

19 But, number one, I don' t think we' re -- on the TV show, 20 we're getting informed. We're not getting written

$ 21 information. I have had no written information from I-

. 22 Little Harbor --

5 l 23 MS. GARDE: Since the QA/QC letter.

-24 MS. PERRY LUXTON: -- since the QA --

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-m- - p--m---------.e-m -

I 110

(]) Ali AR 98 1 one letter. Nothing about the records.

2 MS. GARDE: Well, I don't think that 3 after we do the initial letter saying within the 72 4 hours we have to tell you we had such 3 meeting, we're 5 not -- we -- our protocol doesn't say we continue to 6 send you written updates about what's going on. After, 7 immediately after that, that became a part of our  ;

8 public meetings. There maybe haven't been enough 9 public meetings.

10 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Yes.

$ 11 MS. GARDE: There maybe hasn't been 12 enough dialogue. But I don't want to assume --

13 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Then I might have 14 been under a misconception that we were going to get 15 written documentation --

16 MS. GARDE: No.

17 MS. PERRY LUXTON: --

when things 18 happened.

. 19 MS. GARDE: The written documentation is 20 when we do something that's -- when we tell the company o

. 21 something that we don't tell them in public, we send I

= 22 you a letter within 72 -- five working days?

I

[ 23 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay.

24 MS. GARDE: Within three working deys of O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 267-4102

111 MEETI!i R f4IL STOli UNITS '

1 when we do that. And we have followed that?

2 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay. Well, I think 3 --

4 MR DELCORE: And, Billie, in response 5 to your comment about those girls --

6 MS. GARDE: Women.

7 MR. DELCORE: Women. I notified you --

8 I notified you -- thank you. I notified you expecting 9 you to send them to ECP.

10 MS. GARDE: I did, g 11 MR. DELC~tRE: I did not expect you to 12 notify the company to get on it. Because Northeast 13 Utilities has been known to mitigate issues and make 14 them a lot softer than they are. And that's the 15 problem.

16 :4S. GARDE: Okay. But, Don, I notified 17 the head of the ERB --

18 MR DELCORE: I understand --

l

. 19 MS. GARDE: -- because that was a 20 safety-conscious work environment issue and the ERB had

$ 21 been had by that process.

I 22 MR. DELCORE: I understand that.

l 23 MS. GARDE: And I notified the head of 24 that Board.

I POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

2 1

11L

! MEETING RE: MILLSTC HE UNITS

() JANUARY 2/, 1990 1 MR. DELCORE: I understand that. But we ,

4 2 expected you to notify ECP and watch the company, 3 DR. TRAVERS: Don --

4 MR. McKEE: Yes, we need to move on.

5 MS, PERRY LUXTON: Okay. Thank you.

6 MR. BECK: I just have one 7 clarification. I'd like to address one issue that Mr.

8 Delcore raised obout our changing our standards. We 9 did not change the standard on whit. We simply changed 10 for clarification purposes in response to criticisms g 11 that we got from Susan Perry Luxcon's show that they D

12 didn't understand what our standards were. They hav?

13 not changed at all, World-class is still world-class.

14 Our attributes are ideal attributes.

15 And I'd like to also make one brief 16 comment about what world-class means to us. World-17 class is nirvana. It is way above the necessary 18 regulatory standards to-operate a safe nuclear power l

. 19 plant. So it's an ideal state to strive for and to try 20 to get to. Very few plants meet those kinds of o

7

. 21 standards. And, in fact, I don't know any plant that l 22 would meet all of the ideal attributes that we have set g

l 23 out as a basis for judging where the Millstone 24 environment is.

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C-1 113 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 l%$

1l But our standards haven't changed.

2 We're not going to change them. We're going to still 3 ..old them to those standards. And we're going to 4 report to you faithfully on where we think they are as 5 they continue their efforts to deserve a restart vote, f'

6 it and when it occurs.

7 DR. TRAVERS: Thank you.

8 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Susan, I found the 9 numbers for the alleged harassment, intimidation for

\

10 1997. So I thought I'd give you quick information 67 p 11 for '97, 24 of those were alleged HI.

9 12 OL c'y . Here's our plan. We're going to 13 take one more question and then we're going to take a 14 10 ninute break. We'll come back and resume this 15 session "' =y ?

16 Uow about the gentleman in the back?

17 MR. DURAN KAHN: My name is Duran Kahn.

l 18 I'm a Waterford resident. I'm an operating engineer.

19 I run equipment and cranes at Millstone. And I've 20 heard a ) ,t about intimidation and stuff like that.

f I o

. 21 have to comment on it.

3 g 22 I recently had an experience at Unit 2 5

l 23 whereby in my estimation the load director portion of 24 the lifting and 1.andling was inadequate. Okay? And I O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

114 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1 actually refused to work with somebody, refused to do 2 the job.

3 Now, I'm a contractor. And Unit 2, 4 rather than threaten me or try to intimidate me, they 5 got us all-together and we upgraded that program. We 6 actually upgraded the procedures to meet what- we 7 thought were the proper standards because in that 8 particular case we were going to put a man in a basket l

l' 9 with the crane. And somebody-set down a load director 10 that, to me, was not qualified. They appreciated the f[ 11 help in upgrading the program, d

12 We're not easily intimidated by

'3I management, anyway. Scone, Webster or anybody =else.__

14 Okay? That's the --

the crane operators have that i

15 reputation.

16 At Unit 3, I discovered something about-  ;

17 a crane that I wanted' to discuss and went to-t l 18 Operations. And Operations said to me, "Well, Duran, l 19 why don't you put it in a CR?" Now, you know, I don't 20 know -much about your technical stuff. But I said, i o 1

, 21 " Gee, a CR? You're sure you want me to write a CR?"  !

l

- 22 I'm, you know, thinking it's a bad deal there. He says 5

l 23 -- Operations says, "No. Listen. The CR is -good. It 24 helps us get the job done."

POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

I 115

() AN kR 2 b8 1 So, you know, I've been going to 2 Millstone for the last -- back and forth between 3 layoffs about ninr. years. I've never experienced any 4 kind of intimidation or coercion or anything else, to 5 be honest with you. And I'm talking from the point of 6 view of a Waterford 2esident and a rate payer, besides 7 being a contractor. So, you know, that's the truth 8 from my end of it. And I just had to -- after all the 9 criticism, I had to tell people noout my experience 10 there.

i g 11 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Okay.

gg 12 MR. KAHN: That's all I've got to say.

V 13 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Okay. Thank you.

14 (Applause)

< 15 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Okay. Let's 1

16 reconvene in 10 minutes.

17 (RECESS) l 18 DR. TRAVERS: We're going to reconvene 19 the session on questions, comments to -- for NRC on the 20 topic area of our assessment of the Employee Concerns

$ 21 Program. So that's the topic area that we're still b 22 involved in, responding to questions and hearing any l 23 comments.

24 MR. McKEE: Okay. We'll begin. Do we O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

l l

116 AN AR

(]) 2 8 1 have more -- not to discourage people in thic area, but 2 we do have other areas we're going to cover. But we're 3 still addressing Employee Concerns, Safety-Conscious 4 Work Environment area. And it looks like we have a a

5 person with a question that's already up.

6 MR. TOM McCORMACK: The gentleman back 7 here in the black would like to go, too.

8 MR. McKEE: Okay. Could we have him, 9 you know, him first? He seems eager and I don't think 10 we've had him speak before.

$ 11 MR. TIM O'SULLIVAN: My name is Tim 12 O'Sullivan. I was probably, to my knowledge, the first 13 whistleblower at Millstone. This goes back to 1986, 14 '87. I remember it quite distinctly because I sat 15 across from the table from Jacque Durr, who was then 16 listening to our complaints with a group of people from 17 both the Maryland office and from Region 1. Excuse me.

l 18 I remember it quite distinctly because I. 19 one of the people who was a member of the dais fall

,f 20 asleep during the conversation, which gives you some O-

, 21 idea of how interested the party who was investigating 1

- 22 our claims was.

I l 23 A few comments. And I guess an apology 24 is first in order because, very frankly, I think that I O

POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

117 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 1 thought for the longest time that the NRC were the only 2 people who give answers to s,imple questions sound like 4

3 explosions in a shingle factory. However, I think if 4 you will accept a vote of one, I must add Mr. Beck to 5 that list.

6 I'd like first of all to address a 7 comment that Mr. Beck made about Nirvana. Now, let me 8 suggest to him that when a company does not insist upon 9 quality and distinction, the results are the 10 deterioration of standards, the debasement of taste,

@ 11 shoddy workmanship, cheap politics and the turning of s

lowest common denominator.

{) 12 13 the profile of NU, but it appears That is not only the to be the profile of the 14 NRC and somewhat of Mr. Beck.

15 It's incomprehensible to me that we are 16 thinking in the space of a few weeks to start up a 17 system that 11 years ago Don Delcore, myself, Gary l 18 Johnson and John Delcore sat across the table from i 19 Jacque Durr and his genre trying to explain to them f 20 what was the problems at Millstone and they blast o

. 21 Millstone off as we being the allegers, as they once 1 called whistleblowers, by a 22 called us. We prefer to be I

l 23 the way.

24 It's incomprehensible. It is debasing

() POST REPORTING SERVICE l

l RAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 1 l

l 118 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 1 the whole system to even suggest that we are thinking 2 of starting up a system that has failed miserably over 3 the last 11 years to just even keep their house tidy, 4 not to mind rectify a severe and a debasing standard of 5 employee treatment from the standpoint of harassment 6 and intimidation.

7 I would also suggest, and hopefully lend 8 some support to the attorney from Redding who suggested 9 that Connecticut is the number one state in the union 10 as far as we're concerned. We will not allow the NRC,

$ 11 we will not allow NU to denigrate that concept. You 9

12 have not the authority. You have long ago debased what 13 I consider to be your ability to run a safe agency and 14 to control and to regulate an out-of-control nuclear 15 system at NU.

16 That's all I have to say. Thank you 17 very much.

I 18 (Applause)

I

. 19 MR. McCORMACK: Are we all set?

f 20 A caution to the Nuclear Regulatory 0

. 21 Commission. Northeast --

1 Name?

= 22 CHAIRPERSON LANNING:

E l 23 MR. McCORMACK: Oh. Tom McCormack, West 24 Hartford. A caution to you. You said you received O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

l 119 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 1 some information from Northeast Utilities regarding 2 safety-conscious work environment and Employee 3 Concerns. My caution is that NU lies.

4 I've known NU to tell bold-faced lies 5 under oath repeatedly since at least 1986. For the 6 purpose of law, a corporation is an individual. This, 7 of course, means that not everyone at NU tells lies, 8 but many do. And the most recent example was testimony 9 by Mr. Morris himself to the Department of Public 10 Utility Control, which the attorney for the prosecutal

@ 11 -- I always get this word wrong -- the prosecutorial U

( 12 division said was patently false or Mr. Morris was 13 lying.

14 Mr. Blanche behind me has told me 15 several examples of direct NU lying to the public.

16 Other engineers have told me the same. So I caution 17 you; when NU tells you something, do so through a

! 18 filter that it may well be a lie.

l. 19 Were you -- this lady here, your name 20 please?

o

. 21 MR. McKEE: That's Helen Pastis.

I 22 MR. McCORMACK: Pastis. Was your work g

l 23 associated with the 4001 inspection?

24 MS. PASTIS: Our evaluation used 4001 as O POST REPORTING SERVICE EAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

120 MEETIN MI TN UNITS 1 a guidance, yes.

2 MR. McCORMACK: Okay. Is that complete 3 at this point? The evaluation?

4 MS. PASTIS: The evaluation? Our 5 presence on site is complete but we're right now 6 evaluating the information and writing a report.

7 MR. McCORMACK: Okay. When do you l 8 expect that evaluation to be done?

i 9 MS. PASTIS: The report to be out 10 shortly, next month.

$ 11 MR. McCORMACK: When next nionth?

12 Please. Because this is important because Northeast 13 Utilities is giving a bunch of dates to our public 14 utility commission about the restart of Millstone 3.

15 And it's very critical to the ratepayers because we pay 16 NU about 25 million dollars a month in excessive 17 replacement power costs while those plants are out of l 18 service. This is a very crucial issue to Connecticut i

. 19 ratepayers to know about the schedule. When -- do we 20 have a date, rather than just next month?

O

. 21 MR. McKEE: Next month meeting, February I 22 g

our goal is to have it out by mid-February, the l 23 14th.

24 MR. McCORMACK: Okay. Mid-February. So O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

121 At kR

(]) 2 8 1 that's about a month late than what NU has previously 2 told our utility commission just recently. Okay.

3 Thank you.

4 MR. McKEE: I don't understand that, but 5 --

6 MR. McCORMACK: Yes. They told us --

7 they told the utility commission January 20. So we've 8 got -- we're about a month beyond that.

9 MR. McKEE: I don't know what they told 10 --

$ 11 MR. McCORMACK: Okay. All right. Now, c

12 I have a question. Mr. Reardan, who I guess he's 13 Safety-Conscious Work Environment or Safety Engineer 14 over at Millstone -- something like that. Right? Last 15 month he said that people in the Safety-Conscious Work 16 Environment were pulled into a meeting somewhere around 17 the first of December and given a list of something 18 like 16 attributes that described the safety-conscious I. 19 work environment. And I think basically he said that 20 all the people there agreed that maybe two of those O

, 21 attributes had been met. What is your reaction to 1 Safety-Conscious Work

- 22 that? If you were looking at 5

l 23 Environment, how can you say things are nice in Safety-24 Conscious Work Environment if only two of sixteen

/ POST REPORTING SERVICE RAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

122-MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998-1 standards have been met?

2 MR. McKE2: That was a comment by Mr, 3 Reardan. We're looking at information and- other 4 information that we received. So, you know, I can't 5 confirm or deny what he said. I mean that's his 6 comment. And I -- I really don't know the full basis 7 of that comment.

! 8 MR. McCORMACK: Well, do you know or 9 does Little Harbor know if such a meeting ever took 10 place where Safety-Conscious Work Environment workers g 11 were given a list of 16 attributes by the company to 9-12 judge? Could Little Harbor comment? Or is it just --

0- 13 MS, PERRY LUXTON: have I some 14 information on that. That was a particular department 15 called-the Nuclear Safety Oversight Department that was 16 at a training . session by NU at the Ramada Inn in 17 - Norwich and they were discussing the attributes of the ll 118 Safety-Conscious Work Environment. And that's what he

-li

[ 19 said at the last meeting and that people came to the 20 conclusion that only two of them, they felt, would be

'$ 21 met or achieved. I think that's what he's referring l.- 22 to.

I g 23 MR. McCORMACK: Yes. So I mean what 24 -does that-mean to you?

POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

123

() JANUAR 98 1 MR. McKEE: We don't have that detail.

2 MS. PERRY LUXTON: It's one department, 3 Tom.

4 MR. McCORMACK: Okay. So you don't --

5 did you look -- consider that information? It wasn't 6 considered?

7 DR. TRAVERS: No. The answer is we're 8 trying to do an independent look for ourselves with 9 reliance quite heavily on the efforts of Little Harbor.

10 One department and one meeting in an afternoon at a g 11 Ramada or wherever it was, you know, we don't know what 9

12 happened, really, except for what was stated. We think 13 we've got a program that is fairly broad. And we can 14 talk about that, if you wish. But it's one that 15 includes inspections or evaluations and other things 16 and heavy reliance on the efforts of Little Harbor.

17 MR. McCORMACK: Okay. So I guess maybe Ll 18 Susan or I could get some of this information to you l '> and maybe Mr. Reardan could talk to you directly or 20 talk to Little Harbor directly about this meeting at 21 the Ramada so that's put on the record and we know --

! 22 we can confirm that it did happen and what Mr. Reardan I

l 23 is saying is either truthful or non-cruthful?

24 I have a sentence here that I want to O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

, ~

124 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 l

1 read to you. I'll tell you what it's from. It's from  !

2 DPUC Financial and Operations Review of the Connecticut 3 Light & Power. It's a draft decision. It's December  ;

4 31, '97. It makes this statement.  ;

5 "A significant delay in restart solely 6 attributable to safety-conscious work environment 7 deficiencies would apparently be unprecedented.

8 Therefore, it does not appear likely that this issue 9 will delay restart."

10 Did I hear earlier that if the safety-11 conscious work environment deficiencies were not met, 12 that restart would be delayed or will NRC give approval O 13 to restart without this being cleared up?

14 DR. TRAVERS: The Commission -- and I 15 don't like-to speak for them because they're going to 16 decide the situation. But they've been quite clear, I 17 think, on- the matter of judging the acceptability of 18 -the safety culture, call it safety-conscious work I.. 19 environment, if you will, you know, as one of perhaps 20 the two biggest issues associated with the current f' 21 causes for the shutdown of the Millstone units.

p

.. 22 MR. McCORMACK: Okay. Well, has any.

I J 23 plant in the country ever been delayed restart because 1 24 of workers safety -- safety-conscious work environment?

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125 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

()

JANUARY 27, 1998 1 Is that an accurate statement by the DPUC?  !

2 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: I don't know. I 3 can't comment on that.

4 MR. McCORMACK: Okay.

5 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: I don't know 6 whether any other plants have been delayed because of 7 that.

8 MR. McCORMACK: So we don't know. But I 9 can -- you think it might be fair to me to go back to 10 our utility commission and say the gentleman at the NRC e 11 on such-and-such a date said that it perhaps is C

~

12 unpcecedented but it certainly could delay restart?

O 13 Would that be a fair statement?

14 DR. TRAVERS: The Commission has said --

15 I'll just say it for them again.

16 MR. McCORMACK: Okay.

17 DR. TRAVERS: ". hat it could -- it will j 18 be a factor in their restart decision.

19 MR. McCORMACK: Okay. So I can 20 straighten out our utility commission then on this O

, 21 point. Thank you.

1

, 22 I have a question. Previously, I E

g 23 brought up the issue of performance objectives. And 24 it's very hard to say there's improvement if you don't

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126

() ATU R 8 1 have a base line and a starting place and then, when 2 you go to grade, you have objective criteria which 3 either are met or not met, thus a grade.

4 A very direct question. If next month's 5 meeting two individuals walk up to this microphone and 6 state --

and they have a signed sworn affidavit, 7 notarized or whatever degree possible, that they went 8 to Employee Concerns Program with a significant safety 9 issue and were told by individuals in the Employee 10 Concerns file not to raise the issue because Employee l

lg 11 Concerns did not believe -- and I'm trying to quote the

! U 12 best I can --

did not believe that they could be 13 protected from the restart team. Would that change 14 your assessment of the Employee Concerns Program and 15 the Safety-Conscious Work Environment? And would ycu 16 do something about it?

17 MR. McKEE: That's a hypothetical l 18 question. I can't respond to it. I mean that -- a 19 situation like that, we would have to look ct that 20 situation and assess it.

O 21 MR. McCORMACK: Okay. Well, hopefully, 1

. 22 these two individual will come to you. A gentleman has 5

l 23 told me privately that this happened. And I just -- if 24 you want to -- if there's a criminal investigation or O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

l l

127  ;

MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS l JANUARY 27, 1998

( }.

1 if you have some mechanism and you want to bring me in l 2 and put me under oath, I will testify to this point and 3 then you can look --

4 MR. McKEE: We encourage that -- have 5 you encouraged that individual to come-forward with 6 that information.

7 MR McCORMACK: I certainly will. I 8 certainly will, because a -lot of people here are 9 concerned about making this plant safe. I'm- not 10 concerned about making this plant safe because it's not g 11 safe and it can't be safe under any conditions as shown 9 -

-12 by Three Mile Island.

It was shown by Brown's Ferry.

13 It was shown_ by Enrico Ferme that there is -no such 14 thing as a safe nuclear power plant. And I don't know 15 'how the gentleman from Little Harbor can make the 16 statement that there is such a thing.

17 Now, I don't know how many people die on-18 an annual basis from nuclear power in the United l -19 States. But I do know there's very good evidence from 20 world uranium hearings that --

^$ 21 MR. McKEE: JWe're getting a little off I. 22 track on this.

I-l 23 MR. McCORMACK: Well, a statement was 24 made about safety. It's my understanding under O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

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128 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1 presently accepted radiation protection standards that 2 100 people die per year per plant solely from the radon 3 emitted during --

4 DR. TRAVERS: We've done this before,

,. 5 MR. McCORMACK: My --

5 DR. TRAVERS: Let's stick to Millstone 7 tonight.

8 MR, McCORMACK: Well, that's Millstone.

. 9 DR. TRAVERS: We have a lot of people 10 who are interested in --

g 11 MR McCORMACK: Don't say it's going to V

12 be safe when it's inherently unsafe.

13 DR. TRAVERS: We really, in fairness to 14 people, want to stick to Millstone.

15 (Applause) 16 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Mr. Kennedy.

17 MR. MIKE KENNEDY: My name is Mike l 18 Kennedy. I'm an employee at Northeast Utilities. I-

, 19 work there as an operator and I also have part-time 2

20 collateral duty as a peer representative where I

$ 21 interface with the Employee Concerns Program when 22 someone cares to take a concern that route.

23 I'm happy I have an opportunity tonight l

24 to talk to Mr. McKee and Helen Pastis, the Special POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

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129 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 1 Projects Office, Last spring I had some involvement 2 with you with the Employee Concerns Comprehensive Plan.

3 We had problem with the linkage tables and I helped 4 work on those tables to try to make things clear.

5 I want to go back a little further in 6 the past, back when Millstone 3 was up and running.

7 And I think quite a few of us had a degree of --

8 A VOICE: Talk into the mike.

9 MR. KENNEDY: Ouite a few of us had a 10 degree of arrogance. I'll L' q"ite honest about it, g 11 We thought we were doing a good job there. When people s

12 like Paul Blanche came along and said there were 13 problems or Don Delcore, it was a little hard to, you 14 know, accept that there may be some validity to some of 15 the complaints and issues that came up.

16 And as things progressed, we ended up 27 getting on the Watch List. We ended up getting shut l 18 down. And even so, about three months after we were 19 shut down, Hub Miller came in and was talking to 20 various people. And he came up to me and, you know,

$ 21 even at that stage I was going, "I can't believe they 1

.. 22 shut us down. We were doing such a good job running.

E l 23 We went through a 54-day refueling outage. We were, 24 you know, well-trained. We do our jobs well."

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130 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 1 And it took a while for the reality of 2 being on the Watch List and just finding out what the 3 problems in the organization really were and trying to 4 work to fix them.

5 The arrogance has been beaten out of 6 Millstone. I believe that from the very top to the 7 very bottom that if there was any technological conceit 8 embedded in the company, I think it's been dislodged.

9 The last couple of years have been 10 tough. We've been working 60, 70-hour work weeks at g 11 that plant. And if you ever have another plant that

[ 12 it's in danger of getting on the Watch List, I think O 13 one of the most effective things you could do is get a 14 busload of Millstone people to go to that plant and let 15 them know what's going to happen if they don't get 16 their own house in order.

17 I don't think we're ready for restart 18 quite yet. I think there are still some issues out I. 19 there. I think those issues have been elaborated at 20 various meetings. But I've had the opportunicy as a f 21 worker -- I don't have an agenda. I don't feel I'm 1 22 particular a cheerleader for Northeast Utilities. I i

l 23 just want to come out and say what, you know, some good 24 things are, as well as some of the bad.

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131 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1 We've had a lot of people that have 2 worked extremely hard since we've made the Watch List.

3 We've had three separate restart orders, which is 4 unprecedented in the industry. One of those restart 5 orders, as you're aware, is the Employee Concerns 6 restart order.

7 Unless we can demonstrate a healthy work 8 environment where people are free to raise concerns, I 9 don't think the Commission is going to vote on a 10 restart on Millstone 3 because we're not going to meet g 11 that order. We're working hard on that issue now.

O!

12 I think that your 4001 inspection has 13 shown that ECP has come a long way. In -nine months, 14 that went from an organization that was having great 15 difficulty in effectively dealing with concerns to what 16 I call a robust and effective organization.

17 I sent an E-mail out to Ed Morgan and to

-l- 18 the staff of ECP saying that I personally thought-19 they'd done a great job in developing that organization 20 in the last nine months.

? 21 I have a high regard for ECOP. They 1

22 started off slowly, as people have said. _But I know ll_ 23 people on the panel. They've put in a lot of work.

24 There's a lot of dedication and a lot of, you know, O POST REPORTING SE1i'CE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 1

-_]

132

() kR 98 1 people up there that feel deeply in what they're doing.

2 I have a great deal of respect for the 1 people in Little Harbor as well. I find that Little 4 Harbor is an excellent oversight organization. They --

5 they're professionals. They know what they're doing.

6 And the reports they've come out with are, in my 7 opinion, very good.

8 Right now, our biggest issue is still 9 the chilling effect, rooting out, you know, the hot 10 spots that are still in the organization. Until we do g 11 that, we're not going to be ready for restart. But I gs 12 think that's cchievable in the next couple of months.

(>)

13 We see the number of those hot spots going down. I 14 think that we can get a grasp on that issue and satisfy

-15 the Commission when that time comes.

16 I know for myself that in my normal day-17 to-day job we've had discussions about how many l 18 allegations are done; how many people go to the NRC 19 with problems.

20 As a worker -- and I've seen this in

$ 21 your own interviews and in Little Harbor's interviews 1

- 22 in the work force. The general way we deal with the 5

l 23 issues is we go to the supervisor with an issue.

24 That's over 90 -- I think it was 92 the last time I O

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133 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUAPY 27, 1998 t( )

1 looked. But I think that number may go higher.

2 In the course of, you know, being in the 3 Control Room, I've on a day come up vith half a dozen 4 issues. And these issues are normally dealt with in a 4

5 routine manner. Something comes up, an evolution, a 6 question is given about, "Well, do we want to proceed

, 7 on this?" or, "Look. We're getting overloaded with 8 testing and work. We need to scale down on the work 9 load." And these things are dealt with routinely and 10 effectively.

g 11 Where there's an issue that needs to be i 5 es 12 identified by a CR or there's a question about the

>Q 13 operability of the system, I found that supervisors 14 encourage us to, you know, write the CR's.

15 I think last year I probably had maybe 16 55 CR's written. And that's not, you know, an 17 unusually high number. We've had quite a few CR's 18 written to address problems in the past. It's -- that 19 process is working, f 20 Where we have ECP involvement I think in O

, , 21 the organization right now is in some instances where 1

- 22 there's a poor supervisor / employee relationship, where 5

l 23 there's, you know, poor intent, but more typically I 24 think the ECP ,es are dealing with one department POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 1

134 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 1 having a problem arising in another department.

2 Somebody goes up for a promotion. They 3 are reviewed by a different department for suitability.

4 Denied the promotion. Somebody's had a major problem 5 with a work group in another section of the company.

6 And it's difficult to go directly through your 7 supervisor and get resolution.

8 In those cases, ECP seems to be getting 9 quite a few of those cases.

I 10 Finally, when we get to the NRC and the

$ 11 allegations, I think are problem the NRC does have with 9

r~g -12 this is that you are vulnerable to statistical O

13 manipulation. People can raise an unlimited number of 14 allegations to you and you judge the criteria as the 15 number of allegations rather than the number of 16 substantiated allegations.

17 And in that case we've had, you know, i 18 people that have done numerous allegations and only --

19 in some cases, people have had no allegations; you 20 know, they haven't been substantiated.

O

. 21 I think your criteria probably could be k-22 adjusted and made a better representation of people 5

l 23 going to the NRC and having an allegation substantiated 24 and using that as a yardstick rather than just the O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

135

(]) A1 kR 8 1 sheer number.

2 And I thank you very much for the 3 opportunity to talk.

4 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Thank ycu, 5 MR. McKEE: Thank you.

6 (Applause) 7 MR. RON McKEOWW: My name is Ron 8 McKeown, I live in Niantic. Just two points. Just 9 like everyone has mentionad to you that they talk to a 10 lot of people, I talk to a lot of people as well in the g 11 community. And I just wanted to pass along to you that d

12 from what I see and from what I hear, there is a great 13 respect that the process that we're in relative to NRC 14 and closure and relative to Little Harbor, the great 15 perception of the people that I speak to suggests that 16 the process is working.

17 Millstone has been punished severely and l 18 continues to be punished. And everyone that I speak to 19 suggests the same as what you hear tonight, that safety 20 .

should not be compromised at all.

21 People have -- the reason this room is i 22

=

5 not filled with 2,000 or 5,000 people is because people l 23 believe the process is going through the process that's 24 supposed to be gone through and the process works. And O

k>

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136

(]) JAN AR 98 4

1 it is an e:cample where the government is doing the job 2 it's supposed to be doing.

3 So, contrary to all the complaining that 4' you may hear and suggestions of inappropriateness or 5 unprofessionalism, I'm here to say that there's a whole 6 lot of the regular population that has support of the 7 process that we're in and the process that you're 8 leading.

, 9 Secondly, I would suggest that the 10 public may be better served if there's more control

$ 11 over meetings like this; that many people left and 9

12 continue to leave these meetings because they do not 13 h6ve the opportunity to verbalize what they would like 14 to say, or unless it's very late at night because the 15 meetings aren't structured tight enough. Limits aren't 16 put on individuals.

17 And since it is a democracy and all 18 elements are allowed to give their opinions, it would I. 19 seem to be the fair, just and right thing to do would 20 be to create an environment so that all citizens are O

, 21 created equal and given the same opporcunity to speak l

- 22 and to hear because there's no one sitting in this room E

l 23 that could remotely suggest that there is no dialogue.

24 There's been plenty of dialogue. I --

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0 137 MEETING RE: IIILLSTONE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 1 DR. TRAVERS: Let me just respond --

2 MR. McKEOWN: Yes.

3 DR. TRAVERS: -- quickly to that. And 4 I'd recpond in this fashion. The process that we're 5 using tonight --

6 MR. McKEOWN: Yes.

7 DR. TRAVERS: -- has been one that has 8 evolved and one that has been, for good, bad or 9 different, established based on direct input from the 10 people who attend the meetings.

$ 11 MR. McKEOWN: Right.

U fg 12 DR. TRAVERS: Several different examples V

13 of that I'll give you just off the top of my head. At 14 one point, we were asking peoplo to sign up so that we 15 could in some sort of fair system regulate and give 16 people fairly an opportunity to participate. At a 17 meeting much less attended than this one, the i 18 overwhelming majority of people spoke up and said they

.I 19 didn't want that. So we changed.

f 20 Several other things that we've done, O

, 21 including taking questions after each section, were 1

- 22 directly related to comments that we got from the 1 5 i l 23 people attending the meetings.

24 So I agree that you can construct these

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138

() JA R 2 8 1 kinds of meetings differently than the way we're doing 2 them. But we've attempted to be as responsive to the 3 people who have been coming out and sitting in on these 4 meetings, you know, month after month as we possibly L could.

6 If that's not an acceptable -- if this 7 is not viewed as a fair way to conduct the meetings --

8 and that's what we're here for, by the way, is a fair, 9 broad opportunity for as many people who want to give 10 us comments or ask us questions to do. We are still g 11 interested in those views and we're still interested in e

eg 12 carrying out the kind of meeting that people in this O

13 area who are interested in Millstone and interested in 14 getting information and giving us information war.t.

15 MR. McKEOWN: My only suggestion would 4

16 be that -- tonight some discussions -- and they were 17 good discussions and they were positive discussions at l 18 times. My only suggestion is that it's not in the 19 cumulative best interest of the public should one-on-20 one discussion go for 30, 35 minutes. I'm suggesting

$ 21 that it disccurages the vast majority of people from

. 22 attending meetings and that all people are created I

l 23 equr.1 and no one is better, even if they have more 74 facts, than other people. And tonight you had a pretty POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

139 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1 good attendance and I was pleased to see people of all 2 different opinions show up. I'm only suggesting that a 3 little bit -- don't give up on the attempt to satisfy 4 the greater good. That's all. And thanks again.

5 DR. TRAVERS: Thank you.

6 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Yes. Please.

7 MR. RAYMOND SHADIS: Thank you. Are we 8 back on the allegations process now?

9 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Yes, sir.

10 MR. SHADIS: Thank you. My name is 11 Raymond Shadis, S-h-a-d-i-s. I am from Edgeton, Maine,

~

12 here visiting friends. And I would like to offer to O 13 you in terms of dealing with allegations, particularly 14 those that are brought to NRC, that for the sake of the 15 dialectic about safety, there should be comparison to 16 the experience at other nuclear power stations.

17 I am a member of an organization called

{ 18 Friends of the Coast, which was involved in the 19 shutdown of Maine Yankee atomic power station, and also 20 a representative of the New England Coalition on f 21 Nuclear Pollution.

22 In addition to that, I serva on Maine g 23 Yankee's Advisory Decommissioning Panel. And our 24 experience has been that allegations brought to NRC ar POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

140 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 1 not dealt with in an expeditious and timely manner.

2 The gentleman here from the consulting 3 firm, Little Harbor, said that there is a contribution, 4 I believe -- and I'm paraphrasing here. But he said 5 there's a contribution to confidence that comes with 6 timeliness and response. An employee brings forward a 7 safety allegation and days, weeks and months go by, 8 I want to tell you in our experience in 9 Maine that we brought forward safety allegations at a 10 full commission meeting at NRC Headquarters on February

$ 11 4 of last year and on November 11, I believe it was, of 9

12' this year, same year -- excuse me -- November 11, 1997 13 we got a letter from NRC saying that these allegations 14 were still under investigation and consideration.

15 However, some of them might be aside because in the 16 meantime the plant was shut down. This was not 17 addressing safety issues.

l 18 With Millstone, you do have a record

. 19 number of allegations laid on a desk for NRC to 20 consider. One of the questioners here asked if these o

. 21 were being investigated and the response from thiu

- 22 panel was that they were being evaluated.

E l 23 Having gone through the allegations I i

24 process, I want to let everyone here know that there's j

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141 At AR 7 98 1 one heck of a difforence between an evaluation and an 2 investigation.

3 The evaluation in a p.aliminary step. I 4 don't know if -- if there in any -- anything to it 5 beyond the notion of whether or not Allegations cares 6 to handle that particular matter.

7 The worker in the meantime who han filed 8 that does get notice that the allegation han been 9 received, is under consideration, that his anonymit) 10 will be maintained, p 11 Dut then our experience is that there is v

12 a long, long dull void. A '

if NRC wants to set the 13 etandard, which they should he doing ao a regulator for 14 the industry, then I would urge you to develop a 15 process whereby real interviews take place with the 16 people making those allegations ao that they can get 17 their aide acrosa.

l 18 In our experience, our allegations wore 6

19 parsed out, separated and destroyed based on semantics, l

f 20 It was a game that was being played with the material f 21 allegations that we brought forward to dispose of them, l 22 not to deal effectively with the issues we were trying

[ 23 to raise, 11ad there been some dialogue, we could 24 possibly have constructively pacced beyond that step.

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142 MEETING RE: MILLSTODE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 l

1 In addition, I simply want to -- going 2 back to the notion of comparison to other plants, the 3 Maine Yankee atomic power station was in .994 taidely 4 advertised as a world-class plant. In 1996, March of 5 1996, the company contracted a cultural assessment team 6 report to look at the company culture. And what they 7 found with their employees who were then under a siege 8 mentality, very much afraid of the closing of the plant 9 because of its material degradation, they found that 10 their employees were making judgments as to whether or Q 11 not given issues had ,afety significance. And they 9

12 were doing this on their own intuitive sense, not by 13 any stricture er guideline.

14 And t'cr a upshot of it was that safety 15 issues passed by because of the pressure of the concern 16 for their jobs. And I just want to offer to you that 17 that is also a form of intimidation.

18 As an outside observer, I want to just I 19 remark that I was very, very pleased to see the 20 contractor crane operator come up and speak to you and 21 also the operator who did such an articulate job of I 22 expressing hio view, employee of Northeast Utilities.

g l 23 Our experience in Maine was that it was 24 not until the very final days of Maine Yankee when it O POST REPORTING SERVICE

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143 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 1 looked like the jig was up that employees were alle ed 2 to come out in public and talk about their experiences 3 in the plant without being vetted by the Public 4 Relations Department.

5 And it would behoove in all of these 6 meetings -- and I agree with I

the gentleman here who 7 suggested that some other forum might be necessary, 8 perhaps an extended series of t eetings because it does 9 take time to heer the people.

10 And I want to thank you for your i

$ 11 attention. If you have any questions --

12 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Thank you.

13 DR. TRAVERS: I'll just make one comment 14 -- '

15 (Applause) 16 DR. TRAVERS: -- on an observation you 17 made, if I may. And it has to do with my response, l 18 actually, that indicated evaluations. And when I 19 responded that way, it was a carefully chosen word and f 20 it was carefully chosen because when we discussed our

$ 21 response to allegations that might, for example,

!=

22 include HIRD issues, we don't talk about investigations I

l 23 in public. So when I responded in terms of alleg--

24 evaluations, evaluations might, for example, include POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

144 MEETIN R !I TOli U11ITS 1 any investigations that might be appropriately 2 determined by the Commission.

3 MR. SilADIS: I see. Let me just say in 4 that regard that it is the intention of the 5 organir.ation I represent to be filing a 2.206 with 6 regard to the number of outstanding allegations on the 7 Millstone docket. I think the most recent report from 8 Allegations Office had some 85 outstanding allegations, 9 of which something in excess of 50 were worker -- of 10 worker origin. And I think that the workers need to be

$ 11 heard. And not only do they need to be heard, but u

12 be* ore the plant starts, to me, just plain conservative 13 safety mentality would say you better look at what 14 these guys are talking about.

15 DR. TEAVERS: Yes. I want to respond to 16 that, as well.

17 MR. SHADIS: Certainly 18 DR. TRAVERS: I think it's important.

l

. 19 We agree with you that workers should, in fact, be 20 heard and they should be heard in a timely fashion. So o

. 21 I would just point out the distinccion between the I 22 g completion of an evaluation and us hearing from workers l 23 and the be. ginning of such an evaluation or 24 investigation, whatever it happens to be.

POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

145 MEETIN R !I TOli UNITS 1 We're in violent agreement, I think, on 2 one point. And that is that workers do need to be 3 heard and, if there are issues that precede restart, we 4 want to hear them before restart. We don't put off in 5 the same time frames the obtaining of the information 6 that is forthcoming.

7 MR, SHADIS: Thank you.

8 MR. HALLOWAY: As part of that, Bill, 9 what does the NRC think about --

10 DR. TRAVERS: You better come up, g 11 MR HALLOWAY: You want me to come up?

U 12 DR. TRAVERS: You better because nobody 13 can hear you.

14 MR. HALLOWAY: It's just kind of a 15 follow-on to what Mr, Shadis was saying.

16 DR, TRAVERS: Yes.

17 MR. HALLOWAY: What is the NRC doing H 18 about the process of -- you talked about expediting 0

!,l 19 these investigations to bring them to closure. Now, f 20 we've had instances of some of these going on three,

$ 21 four years. What are -- what is the NRC doing to make t=

22 sure that quicker resolution comes to these I

l 23 allegations?

24 DR. TRAVERS: Well, I don't -- I don't O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i

1 14G MEETIN R !IL STO! UNITS 1 think we've talked about expediting investigations or 2 evaluations. We've said --

3 MR. HALLOWAY: No. He did. He asked --

4 DR. TRAVERS: What we have pointed to is 5 factual information that suggesta that many of them 6 aren't done.  ? r,+/ a true. And --

but we have 7 information. And part of the Commission's decision-8 making process, just for your information -- I think 9 we've talked about this a little bit in the past - is 10 going to incluo any pending issues, such as HIRD, any 11 investigations or so forth that may be ongoing. The 12 Commission is getting briefed. These are not public 13 meetings because this is a sensitive information that 14 can,.in fact, be -- in fact, has to be discussed in 15 private.

16 But the Commission has indicated that it 17 fully intends to get -- even if the issue isn't closed, 18 they are going to be considering the issue, its 19 potential outcome and the significance of the issue as f 20 it could af fect the organi::ation and restart.

O

. 21 MR. HALLOWAY: So, in other worda, what l 22 l

g you're saying is there will be a status report given on l 23 each and every allegation at the time?

24 DR. TRAVERS: The Commission is, in POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

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1 fact, getting status leports in closed session on 2 important issues of this sort.

3 MR. HALLOWAY: Thank you.

4 MR. DELCORE
Can I follow up on that, 5 Bill? I have a question about that.

6 DR. TRAVERS: Stre. Go ahead.

7 MR. DELCORE: If you look at the issue 8 of the MOV situation and you recognize that Northeast 9 Utilities agrees that retaliation took place, Little q

10 Harbor oversaw it and agreed that retaliation took

,Q 11 place --

maybe I'm --

you know, maybe I don't

' u 12 understand this whole thing. But how come enforcement 13 action hasn't been taken? I mean it's --

14 DR. TRAVERS: Let me --

15 MR. DELCORE: There isn't any 16 investigation that needs to be done. It's all done.

17 They've already admitted to the wrongdoing.

l 18 DR. TRAVERS: No, no, no, no. We have a 19 responsibility to independently assess these kinds of f 20 issues before we make important judgments. And that's O

. 21 what we're about.

h

= 22 MR. DELCORE: Are you saying that Little 5

l 23 Harbor and NU made the incorrect judgment on 24 retaliation?

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148 i MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1 Dil. TRAVERS: We're saying we're taking 2 an independent look at that situation.

3 CHAIRPERSON LAlmING: Rosemary? j 4 MS ROSEMARY BASSILAKIS: These are new 5 microphones. You don't have to turn them on.

6 DR. TRAVERS: Very nice.

7 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Yes. Aren't they a nice?

9 MS. BASSILAKIS: Good evening. Rosemary i 10 Bassilakis with the Citizens Awareness Network. A few 11 things on my pad tonight. I guess I just want to start 12 off by saying that I've learned through the grapevine 4

13 that a lot of Millstone i employees learned about the 14 possible closure of Millstone 1 in the newspaper. And 15 I believe that was wrong. I believe that they should 16 have heard that from management. And I know if my 17 company was about to shut their doors, I would want to l 18 hear about it from my company. And I think it just 19 goes to show that there's still room for improvement 20 with situations like that.

$ 21 As far as the Safety-Conscious Work I 22 Environment indicators, as Mr. Beck discussed this

g 1

l 23 evening, I'm very uncomfortable with changing the 24 nomenclature and the grading and what not. And I just O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

149 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 1 want to leave it at that. I understand that you're 2 implying that people misunderstood. And I'm very 3 uncomfortable with that.

4 The whole issue about Little Harbor 5 Consultants -- and I know Susan Perry Luxton brought 6 this up, as far as them being advisors and consultants 7 and intervening. I think the point that we can't lose 8 is that the reason this concerns us so much is that 9 what's going to happen when Little Harbor goes away.

! 10 This is the real issue.

g 11 No, we don't want to see situations 12 blown out of proportion. And, in fact, we're glad 13 Little Harbor's there to intervene. However, 14 situations will blow out of proportion when Little 15 Harbor leaves if Northeast Utilities hasn't been able 16 to develop the abilities to have a safety-conscious 17 work environment, to recognize chilling issues and deal l- 18 with them in an effective and quick manner. So this is 19 the issue.

20 So what I'd like to bring to you

$ 21 gentlemen is where is it written that Little Harbor i

g 22 will have to stay on frr a designated period of time?

3 l 23 MR. McKEE: I'll answer the last -- your 24 last portion first and I'd like to respond to a couple POST REPORTING GERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

150 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O 3^"u^av 2 1998 1 of other areas.

2 Actually, the order that -- on Employee 3 Concerns and Safety-Conscious Work Environment 4 specifies that the NRC, until the situation is deemed 5 to be corrected, that the third-party organization 6 would stay in place. And it's not amplified in the 7 cover letter that that time would be a time for many 8 months that would extend certainly beyond the restart 9 of the initial unit.

10 As Helen mentioned in her summary of her

$ 11 findings -- and I don't think you were -- you weren't U

12 here for that.

13 MS. BASSILAKIS: No.

14 MR. McKEF.: One of the things that we 15 identified during our evaluation, something that we 16 found was the development of the long-term plans by 17 Northeast and how they're going to deal and maintain an 18 environment where they're going to continue monitoring 8 19 and looking for any degradations to their program and f 20 addressing that and maintaining indicators. And

$ 21 certainly part of that is their assessment of Little 1

22 Harbor. But it's the NRC that will ultimately make the l 23 decision on the determination or the availability of 24 determination of the licensee to consider --

to O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

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l 151 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 1 maintain Little Harbor beyond when we think it's 2 necessary. And that's going to be -- even in our 3 evaluation plan, we've mentioned a time of at least 4 several months, six months and possibly a process, you 5 know, following that.

6 I'd just like to mention I know the 7 topic was -- brought up earlier is the fact of Little 8 Harbor's influence in several of these events. And 9 then there's -- Billie Garde mentioned that is one of 10 the reasonc at least Little Harbor has -- and even the p 11 licensee has identified that they haven't made it to U

q 12 the level they want to be in that safety-conscious or

%)

13 dealing with problem areas. And their intervention and 14 need for their influence in those situations is a cig 15 factor. And that is a continuing, you know, 16 detenniaation .

17 At our meeting today when we met and l 18 discussed the status, a big factor, and I thought was l

8 19 an interesting factor, is that a lot of those events 20 and incidents that were being monitored by Little l$ 21 Harbor and no influence where there are evidence of l 22 dealing with these issues in a more comprehensive and l l 23 better manner. And there's a number of places like 24 that. And I think that's part of the criteria, really,

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152 i MEETIN R: !I STO!!E UNITS l 1 in the ensuing several weeks and looking at the past, 2 of the fact of whether they do influence or have 3 recommendations to further events of the type of tne  ;

l 4 MOV and training issues that we saw, you know, late 5 last summer or last fall.  ;

6 MS. BASSILAKIS: One of the things that 7 we have requested, both our organization and some other 8 organizations, is that there be allowed a dry run prior 9 to start-up where NU could demonstrate their ability to 10 maintain a safety-conscious work environment without g 11 Little Harbor's intervention, I just want to put that s

12 out, 13 I looked through the overheads real 14 quickly from Little Harbor's meeting. And I --

15 apparently, 75 percent of the workers who have used the 16 Employee Concerns Program at this point are willing to 17 re-use it again, which is a big difference from just l 18 last month.

19 And so I was wondering if they could 20 comment briefly on why workers previously weren't 3 21 willing to re-use and why the change has come forward 1 22 in such a short period of time?

l 23 MR. McKEE: I'll let Little Harbor 24 answer that. But, you know, I think they're -- well, O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) .1C2-4102

153 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1 go ahead. I won't say it.

2 MS. GARDE: Rosemary, I think that 3 probably the main reason is that the first batch of 4 those statistics was based on contact from the 5 employees whose concerns were closed out prior to 6 September. Or was it -- Prior to September. And that 7 group of Employee Concerns files included a lot of 8 files that had been open for a very, very long period 9 of times that is, concerns that were there when the new 10 ECP effort started and had been closed over that period g 11 of time. So you had people who werc dissatisfied with 12 the process if for no other reason than the length of 13 time that it was taking to deal with those issues. And 14 some of those issues had, frankly, just sat on the 15 shelf for a long time. So resolving them in a 16 satisfactory manner was not real easy.

17 The newer concerns, people that were i 18 looked at-in the newer concerns, are more -- are done

. 19 under the newer program. It's basically about an 83-f 20 percent satisfaction rate. And we see that the efforts

$ 21 that ECP has made to be timely and to move these things I 22 along has been producing results. It's not 100 g

[ 23 percent. But my own feeling is as I would call 24 somebody who had a concern that was, you know, a year O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

i 154

({} JA i AR ' 2 98 l

1 and a half old, you know, I wasn't surprised when they 2 said not only "No", but " Hell, no, I'm not going back 3 there."

4 Interestingly enough, though, some of 5 those people who said they wouldn't go back there 6 actually have referred people to there that are now 7 some concernees. So this is an evolving iusue.

8 MS. BASSILAKIS: Well, I'm glad to hear 9 that there's been improvement. It will be interesting 10 to watch over the next couple of months --

lg 11 MS. GARDE: Right. It will be.

12 MS. BASSILAKIS: -- because they should 13 be able to maintain the status then. But I think it's j 14 in everybody's best interest that there's an effective

15 Employee Concerns Program.
16 Mr. Shadis from Maine brought up the

].

17 issue of comparison from, you know, the different 18 reactors as far as allegations go. I'm just curious

)I, 19 what -- it looks like from the transparencies that were f 20 handed out earlier today that I guess at Millstone

$ 21 there's probably somewhere around 13 a month, 15 a 1

22 month?

'l 23 DR. TRAVERS: Five or six.

24 MS. BASSILAKIS: Five or six? Really?

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i 155 JA! AR 98 1 MR. McKEE: Well, that's -- the 13 or 15 2 a month, you're probably thinking of the Employeo 3 Concerns losues that go to the Employee Concerns 4 Program. That's about that number. The number of 5 allegations is the five or six.

6 MS. BASSILAKIS: That's what I was 7 thinking. I was just wondering how it compares to the, 8 you know, national average.

9 DR. TRAVERS: It's the highest.

10 MS. BASSILAKIS: It's the highest. Well p 11 --

and this may have been mentioned earlier. But as u

12 far as striving for a steady trend indicator and that 13 being a success, you know, exemplifies success as long 14 as they're not going up, they should clearly be going 15 way down, if that's the case. That's what I would call 6

16 a success story.

17 Lastly, I'm just a little bit confused l 18 about the issue of condition reports. It looks like 19 that they're striving to have condition reportu 20 evaluated within about 30 days. And they're getting

$ 21 close to that number. They're at about 75 percent of 8

22 them get evaluated within 30 days. Right?

l 23 DR. TRAVERS: Yes.

24 MS. BASSILAKIS: Okay. They want to O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

l 156 MEETIN R !I RSTO!E UNITS 1 achieve 95 percent. They also look at whether or not i

2 they evaluated them correctly, you know, from a scale 3 of zero to four, one to four. And they're at the 4 number three, which means they're doing a pretty good 5 job.

6 What -- what concerns me is that in the 7 most recent inspection report it talks about condition a reports having less than adequate corrective action 9 plans. So I'm just wondering where does corrective 10 action plan in terms of the condition report -- where g 11 does that fit into this whole story? Because if you u

12 look at this story, it looks like the condition reports 13 are going well. But if I look in the inspection report 14 from January 9, it's saying that the corrective action 15 plans for the condition reports aren't quite there yet.

16 So if you could just comment on that?

17 DR. TRAVERS: Yes. I think what you're 18 -- well, I know whht you're looking at is an individual ,

f 19 --

I think broadly, most broadly, you reference two 20 things. One is NU's indication of where they think

$ 21 they stand. And you've indicated an individual

= 22 instance of part of our program to look at Corrective t

[ 23 Actions and how well it's functioning. It's a very 24 broad program and it encompasses not only the things O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

157 MEETI!JG RE: MILLSTO!1E UNITS Q JANUARY 27, 1998 1 you'll see ir, the routine inspection reports but 2 evaluations being made in connection ..ith the ICAVP 3 findings. It's going to include a Special Team 4 Inspection 4500, which is going to be occurring --

5 when?

6 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Starting February l

7 9.

8

,DR. TRAVERS: The 9th of February, you 9 know, acheduled. This was put off because of the 10 licensea's identification of their not being ready for g 11 it.

u 12 But, you know, in the broadest sense, 13 that's one -- that's an issue we identified. And we're 14 looking at this program because we think it's 15 fundamental. And corrective actions are fundamental 16 not only to the issues but to . employee concerns and 17 safety-conscious work environment in the sense that if l 18 you had a handle on corrective actions, if you're 19 implementing an effective program, in my view many, if 20 not all, of the problems at Millstone that have caused

$ 21 the shutdown to be so extensive wouldn't have existed, k

22 I mean if you implement a Corrective Action Program l 23 effectively, if you handle worker concerns in a prompt 24 way, effectively, you encompass the full scope of --

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158 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

(]) JANUARY 27, 1998 1 and it's big. It's not an easy thing. That's why 2 Wayne developed his famous wheel, to indicate how many 3 aruas are touched by whether or not you have an 4 effective Corrective Action Program.

5 So this is certainly, you know, one 6 finding that we noted in that routine inspection 7 report. We have not yet completed our assessment of 8 Corrective Action Program. We have indications of l

9 positive findings. For example, in our reviews of 10 Significant Item List packages we've indicated that we p 11 are finding those packages to be high quality and u

12 contain correct, in our estimation, corrective action, 13 not just for the issue but the broader implications are 14 being addressed as well.

15 So it's really a very large area. We 16 have positives and negatives identified through the 17 last year and a half or two years and documented in l 18 inspection reports. We have yet to come to a final 19 programmatic conclusion about corrective actions and we 20 won't until after our team inspection on 4500.

'$ 21 MS. BASSILAKIS: Thanks. That's it.

I 22 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Let's discuss our l 23 plan for the rest of the evening. What I'd like to do 24 is for those folks who have not asked a question and O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

159 ,

(]) AT AR 98 i l

1 have a question about the safety-conscious work 2 environment, I'd like to hear those. And then after 3 those folks have asked those questions, let's move on 4 to the Independent Corrective Action Program part of 5 tonight's agenda because I really want to get to 6 Susan's question about corrective actions because it's 7 a very important question and I want an opportunity to 8 answer that. So is that agreeable? Okay.

9 So for those who have not asked a 10 question tonight aboat the safety-conscious work g 11 environment and have a question, raise your hand. Yes, u

12 This gentleman in the very back.

13 MR. McKEE: The other mike. Yes. It's 14 on. You just have to be close.

15 MR. BOB WYSOCKI: Okay. Bob Wysocki 16 from Block Point, Niantic. A question. I would like 17 to know -- I've been asking different places where I 18 could buy a meter to monitor what's coming out of the I

. 19 nuclear power plant? You know, where a guy could have .

J

f. 20 a meter to monitor, you know, what the increase,

$ 21 hopefully not, of the radiation.

I 22 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Can we talk to you l 23 after the meeting? And we'll try to get you an answer 24 to that question.

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160 MEETING RE !I LSTOlE UNITS 1 MR. WYSOCKI Okay.

2 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: I don't think we 3 know inanuf acturers. Yes. You need to know equipment 4 or something.

5 MR. WYSOCKI: Yes. Right. Right.

< 6 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Yes. So I don't 7 have -- can we get to afterwards --

i 8 MR. WYSOCKI: Yes.

9 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: -- and get you an 10 answer?

g 11 MR. WYSOCKI: Right. Okay. And there's 12 another question over there. Why can't you monitor 13 like from anywhere from the way it is, red, yellow and 14 green? Why don't you have something like a 15 thermometer? You know, as you're improving it will go l 16 up to green or if you're going lower, you go lower.

17 You know? Put it in the paper every day, publish it.

, 18 Okay. Thank you.

I 19 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Thank you.

20 MR. McKEE: Thank you.

$ 21 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: How about this

' t 22 lady in the front row here? You haven't had a question

} 23 at all tonight.

24 MS. MITZI BOWMAN: I'm not sure you're POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

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161 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1 going to allow me to talk because I don't know really 2 what the agenda prevents me --

3 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: We're on safety-4 conscious --

5 MS. BOWMAN: Prevents me from saying.

6 That's what I'm saying.

7 My name is Mit::1 Bowman and I come from 8 New Haven. I have been working and listening for many 9 years to the NRC and to Northeast Utilities and coming 10 to these hearings and these conversations, g 11 I'm really concerned workers safety t!

12 concerns are not aufficient, in my view, to cover the 13 problems of whether or not to open the Millstones.

14 I've been watching the NRC over a number 15 of years and I've been reading the Federal Register.

16 And I've been finding that your standards, the 17 standards of the Commission, have been deteriorating i 18 over the years, that every time I open up one of your 19 Federal Registers I find relapsing standards. Among 20 some of the things that I'm learning about is the

$ 21 recycling of radioactive metals into the community.

k-22 So I have very little confidence that I

l 23 once you decide to open those plants again after their 24 miserable record of releasing radiation into the POST REbORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

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162 i MEETING RE:-MILLSTONE UNITS Q JANUARY 27, 1998 1 communities, three million curies in one year, 1975, 2 and then other releases before and after that, that you 3 are going to watch the workers safety concerns in an 4 adequate manner and that you're going to act in an 5 expeditious manner to correct any incipient dangers to 6 the public, as well as to the workers.

7 Now, I have a lot of respect for the 8 workers and I know how important it is to keep a job 9 and how terrible it is to have to risk your employment 10 even if the industry you're working in is hurting g 11 people outside, so there's a lot of denial here. And 59 12 people -- I heard someone say that nobody dies from 13 nuclear power plants. Well --

14 A VOICE: No one has.

15 MS. BOWMAN: Well, actually, the 16 authorities themselves have admitted to deaths from 17 nuclear power. So -- from the releases. So we know l 18 that the cumulative releases of radioactive materJ.als -

19 - and I'm --

please let me finish. That the91 f- 20 cumulative releases do cause cancers. They do cause

$ 21 immune disorders. So we know about that. And that has 1

- 22 been admitted by the authorities. So even though you -

l l 23 - your denial, the workers' denials, psychological fear 24 of accepting that, make them not want to believe it.

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o 163 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1 These are the facts.

2 It seems to me that the oversight by the 3 NRC has been dilatory from way back. And as I recall a i

4 couple of years ago, a few year ago coming to these 5 meetings, that the NRC was known to have been aware of 6 Millstone's lack of safety concern for I think the 7 statement was 12 yearL.

8 DR. TRAVERS: I'm going to have to --

l 9 MS. BOWMAN: But that's -- all right.

10 DR. TRAVERS: I'm going to have to ask--

g 11 MS. BOWMAN: Yes.

12 DR. TRAVERS: If you're unfamiliar with 13 the format we use, let me just tell you what it is 14 because we may not have made it as clear as we should.

15 We're in a session now where we're asking people who f 16 are interested in giving un comments or making us 17 questions about Employee Concerns Program, Safety-l 18 Conscious Work Environment.

19 MS, BOWMAN: Mm-hmm.

20 MR. McKEE: As far as I can tell, you're

$ 21 not. Very L.ach on track to either.

I 22 MS. BOWMAN: Well, that's what I'm l 23 talking about is workers' safety concerns and --

24 MR. McKEE: We're -- but let me --

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i l

5 164 {

() JAli ARY 98 1 MS. BOWMAN: -- an NRC tha't is not going 2 to address those workers' safety concerns after the t

3 plants' reopening.

4 MR. McKEE: In fad,rness to people who --

5 (Applause) 4 6 MR. McKEE: In Cairness to people who 1

i 7 want to ask questions on that topic, what we -- well, 8 the way we structure these meetings is we'll stay past 9 midnight, and we often do, to - -

10 MS, BOWMAN: Yes. But I can't. I come i f 11 from New Haven, s

12 MR. McKEE: I'm sorry about that. But

13 wt re in a session now where we are really focused and 14 want to take -- because people have planned to come 15 here and ask us questions on this topic.

16 MS, BOWMAN: Well, I think I've said j 17 what I had to say.

l ll 18 MR. McKEE: Thank you.

-h l( 19 MS. BOWMAN: And I just want to remind f 20 you that we don't --

we in the community don't have

-O

. 21 confidence that the NRC will be properly addressing the l 22 workers' safety concerns or the community's 4

g safety

[- 23 concerns in the future. So that's what I have to say, 24 MR. McKEE: Thank you.

J

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() Ai AR 98 1 (Applause) 2 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: John?

3 MR. MARKOWICZ: John Markowicz from 4 Wdterford, Connecticut, I'd like to just respond to 5 some of the comments that were made earlier regarding 6 the criteria that Little Harbor is using for their 7 evaluation of attributes.

8 The first time I heard them speak to 9 that was at the Nuclear Regulatory Commissioner's 10 meeting, public meeting in Rockville. Don was there.

g 11 Most of you folks were here. And then I heard it again U

12 I think it was the 17th of December here at a public 13 meeting. Again, it was Little Harbor making a 14 presentation.

15 And my recollection of those positions 16 from Little Harbor was they came up with a scale of 17 from green to red and there were five blocks. The top 18 one was green, than there were three yellow and then

I. 19 there was red. And the three yellow were brokan down 20 further. The middle yellow had nothing in it, the

$ 21 upper-level yellow had a plus and the lower-level l

. 22 yellow had a minus.

1

[ 23 And Chairman Jackson, when she 8 tarted 24 that meeting, said, "I want, in response to my O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

166 Al RY 98 1 questions, reports from the presenters as to whether 2 things are SAT for restart, UNSAT for restart or how 3 are they trending?" And, therefore, in response to 4 that, when Little Harbor came up to present, they 5 indicated as a group that they had as a consensus G identified that the acceptable, the SAT standard for 7 restart was anything that they put in a criteria box of 8 yellow, neither plus or minus; in other words, it was a 9 middle-range yellow.

10 Now, there's been some discussion

$ 11 tonight about w%et green means. But what I'm trying to

'J 12 put on the record as my recollection of that meeting 13 and the meeting on the 17th -- and I'm reinforcing what 14 John -- what Mr. Beck said earlier. That the standard 15 that was established at the Commissioner's meeting and 16 then restated here at a public meeting in December and 17 as stated this afternoon at NU and here this evening 18 has not changed.

I; 19 Thank you.

f 20 MR. McKEE: Thank you.

0-

. 21 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Mr. Fromer.

= 22 MR. FROMER: Robert Fromer, New London, I

l 23 Connecticut. I want to comment on something that was 24 said earlier by Mr. Markowic: relative to a statement, C2

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l 167 MEETIN R MIRSTOli UNITS 1 questions that I had said.

2 First of all, when I asked my question 3 of Dr. Thayer, you gave me a complete answer in what I 4 was looking for. Perhaps Mr. Markowicz felt a need to 5 elaborate, to respond to concerns on his own part. But 6 I definitely don't need a mouthpiece to interpret how 7 answers are given to me and how I accept them or 8 respond to them or how I understand them. That happens 9 to be a pattern. And so I want to state here for the 10 record you answered my question. Okay?

g 11 DR. TRAVERS: I would inject only a u

12 little bit of information. I know you haven't asked me 13 for it. My name is Travers, 14 MR. FROMER: Travers. I'm sorry.

15 Sorry.

16 Okay. Now, the question I have for you 17 is, Dr. Travers, with respect to the number of l 18 outstanding allegations that are under investigation 19 because I think we need to put this into perspective.

20 Is how many investigators does your NRC at King of

$ 21 Prussia have to handle allegations?

l

. 22 DR. TRAVERS: I don't know,

[ 23 MR. FROMER: See, that's -- that's a 24 point because if there's considerable time delay POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i

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168 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1 required to investigate, write reports, analyze and 2 evaluate and if it's moving at this slow a pace, 3 perhaps serious consideration should be given by the 4 HRC to increase the number of investigators so you can 5 expedite the3e investigations.

6 DR. TRAVERS: I was being flip. And 7 Wayne knows, because he works out of the King of 8 Prussia office, that there's less than 10 in that 9 office. Just to give you a number, 10 MR. FROMER: Okay. So if there's less 11 than 10 and they're going at this very slow pace, has 12 any serious consideration been given to increase the 13 budget or hiring on more investigators?

14 DR. TRAVERS: I can't answer it 15 directly. But I will tell you that the agency hangs at 16 budget time every year, considers a whole host- of 17 issues. And I would expect I can speak very clearly on l 18 this without any real knowledge of it, but to suggest 19 that the Director of the Office of Investigations at 20 budget time each year raises the issue of resources in f 21 discussion. But I don't have a --

t. 22 MR. FROMER: I think this is --

5 l 23 DR. TRAVERS: I don't have a direct 24 understanding of how he does it or what his basis for O COST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

169 g JA kR 98 1 doing it is.

2 MR. FROMER: See, the thing is that 3 given the concern of the public and, also, the 4 employees in terms of resolution, I think considerable 5 input and pressure could be brought to bear by the 6 public and the employees at budget time with the NRC 7 and also with the U.S. Congress to encourage. increasing 8 the budget to increase the number of investigators so 9 that you can perform your duties and obligations under 10 the law as expeditiously as possible because people 11 have legitimate concerns here, but I think they're in 12 many cases ignorant about your resources and your 13 circumstances and your limitations as to what you can 14 do. So perhaps the public can support your efforts to 15 increase the number of inspectors.

16 Now, one of the things that has come out 17 here with respect to a situation where the CRC and Mr.

18 Don Delcore have people coming "o

. them based on 7

19 ignorance, whether contractors or otherwise, and f 20 they're directing these people to Little Harbor or I 21 they're directipi them to the Employee Concerns k-22 Program.

l 23 It seems like these four different 24 people are performing two roles. In one case, they're e POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

170 g M RY 8 1 acting as ombudspeople and also oversigl> ;arsonnel 2 where Little Harbor's role is not to do that, by their 3 own charter, with NU.

4 It would seem that the way to z.lleviate 5 this duality of duties would be to perhaps charter the 6

CRC or Mr. Delcore by the NRC without any pay or maybe 7 with some pay --

I don't know. That would have to be 8 worked out --

where they would serve in an ombudsman 9 role.

10 Now, the U.S. Navy has a very successful

$ 11 ombudsman program and the sub base has it. And perhaps 9

12 the NRC should contact the Base Commander to explore 13 the ombudsman program to see how it workr: what its 14 functions and purposes are, and how successful it is.

15 Because I think in this area, something needs to be 16 done.

17 Now, for example, Infoline, which is a l 28 private organi::ation tut provides information about

. 19 resources in Connecticut, I seriously doubt that they f 20 are providing information to people who are trying to

. 21 find assistance or help wici respect to nuclear energy I

= 22 pro u*lems or with respect to nuclear problems, like 5

l 23 contractors.

24 So maybe they could be the ombudsperson G POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

171 Q M kR 98 1 and then they could put ads in the newspaper, on TV and 2 circulate flyers around Millstone to say, " Hey, if you 3 don' t know what to do, where to ( ) end who to see, come 4 to us and we'll point you in the direction."

5 LHC should not be doing this. They 6 should strictly be impartial observers who report and l

l 7 evaluate. And like was brought up this evening, when 8 they -- when they go away, what do you have?

9 And so what I'm suggesting is a vehicle 2

10 that you could have in place so that when they do go g 11 away, there isn't a void. There isn't this vacuum u

12 that's created. Now, you may want to give very-serious 13 consideration to that.

14 Now, one final point that I want to make 15 is that the Employee Concerns Program, which is a 16 safety-conscious issue, is really an issue that I've 17 addressed previously at many separate occasions and Mr.

l 18 Durr, under questioning from me in the past, has given

. 19 us a quan-- given us a number relative to this factor.

f 20 The reliability and the availability of O

. 21 Millstone operations is driven and controlled by human

! 22

= either reliability or human unreliability. Mr. Durr E

[ 23 said that 50 percent, at least -- and I would say more, 24 90 percent of the problems are human problems -- human

() POST REPORTING SERVICE RAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

172 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS ll) JANUARY 27, 1998 1 error problems. Someone did something they weren't 2 supposed to do, should have done something. And this 3 goes clear across the board.

4 Now, the desire, the purpose of what 5 you're trying to do is increase the availability in a 6 safe way of Millstone and to -- and in order to do 7 that, it is absolutely essential to reduce and minimize 8 the human unreliability.

9 Now, I've said this before and I'll say

!I 10 it again. There is no way that a nuclear power plant

$ 11 .

can be safe because you cannot guarantee human u

12 reliability. But what you can do at best is minimize 13l the unreliability of humans. And that's what you are 14 focusing -- your direction is geared towards. Okay?

15 And so I still maintain you can never 16 have safe nuclear power. But if you're going to have 17 nuclear power, the idea is to reduce that. And a

$ 19 measure of the reduction of human unreliability in the 19' Employee Concerns area is the reduction of the number 20 of allegations coming to you because the employees have

. 21 trust and confidence that their supervisors and their

- 22 managers are seriously listening in a credible way L E

l 23 those concerns and they're going to do everything 24 physically possible to realize those concerns O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

173 ll) HAT RY 98 1 irrespective of cost. And so until that can occur, 1

2 these power plants should not start up.

3 Thank you.

4 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Thank you.

5 Okay. Mr. Imbro, who has been extremely 6 quiet tonight.

7 MR. GENE IMBRO: My name is Gene Imbro.

8 I'm Deputy Director of ICAVP Oversight. That's the 9 Independent Corrective Action Verification Program. I 10 wanted to try and give you quickly a status of where g 11 the program implementation is. It's kind of late, so 2

12 I'll try and ba brief.

13 As you know, for Unit 3 the ICAVP is 14 looking at 15 of the 88 systems. Unit 3 ICAVP is 15 nearing completion. Sargent & Lundy is winding up, 16 winding up their reviews. I believe they're still 17 looking at some corrective actions and some i 18 modifications for the RSS, recirculation spray system.

19 But I think the projected completion f 20 would be some time towards the end of the month or sort

. 21 of -- or towards mid-February when they' re going to be

! 22 done, g

s l 23 Now, we --

again, we're doing an 24 oversight of Sargent & Lundy and Parsons as well. But G POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

174 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS ll) JANUARY 27, 1998 1 we've -- where we are now is we have completed our out-2 of-scope inspection. We had an enforcement conference 3 several weeks ago. Two issues primarily that came up 4 for --

in the enforcement conference were the air-5 binding issue for the safety injection pumps and also 6 the leakage of -- back-leakage from valves tnat would 7 isolate the radioactive fluid from flowing back to the 8 refueling water storage tank after loss of coolant 9 accident.

10 Wnat we found after some length of time, g 11 the leakage issue had been identified by NU back in S

12 June and they somehow did not remember that they had 13 identified that, so didn't tell us until very shortly 14 before the enforcement conference. So that issue is --

15 again, was already identified by the licensee.

16 The air-binding issue we felt was a--

17 you know, a concern to us certainly because it really l 18 questioned the operability of the safety injection 19 pimps.

20 After a long study, both analytical and

. 21 lacoratory tests, Northeast Utilities concluded that

! 22 g the pumps would have been able to pass the air without 5

l 23 impairing the functionality or the continued 24 operability of the pumps. Again, that's something that G POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

175 kR 98 ,

1 they described at the meeting, for those of you that 2 were here, I think we need to take a look at that 3 again.

4 But, in any case, those two issues are 5 still being discussed among our staff and the 6 enforcement action yet is not finalized.

7 For our in fection, again, we have the -

8 -

the ICAVP oversight is kind of a multi-faceted 9 approach. " include 3 the out-of-scope inspection that 10 7 "ust talket cout. It also included -- includes an

$ 11 inspection of Tier 2, Tier 3, Sargent & Lundy program, d

12 That inspection, Tier 2, Tier 3 inspection, has been 13 completed. We're going to have a public exit tomorrow 14 at 9:00 in the Training Center for anyone who wants to l

15 attend.

16 We're also looking at the Tier 1, 17 Sargent & Lundy evaluation. That inspection is in i 18 process now. We're probably looking -- that inspection i

. 19 will be completed at Sargent & Lundy February 6 with f 20 the teams on site here now. We v411 probably be O

. 21 looking for a public exit meeting on that as well some 22 time towards mid to late February.

l 23 One more inspection after that will be 24 we're going to conduct a corrective action inspection.

O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 1

176 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS x JANUARY 27, 1998 1 And that's going to be to evaluate the corrective 2 actions that NU has taken both with regard to the 31 Sargent & Lundy issues and plus, additionally, issues 4 that have come about as part of the Configuration 5 Marrgement Plan that NU has self-identified. So we're 6 going to look at both facets, both facets of that.

7 And we're also going to look at some l 8 other corrective actions that NU has taken in response 9 to this issue of air-binding of the safety injection 10 pumps. NU has stated that the reason that this was not g 11 identified by them -- and that was certainly a concern S

12 to us with regard to the efficacy of the Configuration 13 Management Plan they conducted -- was that the way 14 their program was set up, it didn't necessarily look at 15 system operation from starting after an accident. It 16 turas out that the recirculation spray system is a dry 17 lay-up system. And that really hadn't been evaluated A by them.

I

. 19 What they have done, at least as they f 2C explained to the enforcement conference, is they have -

O

, 21 - they've, quote, " completed this additional effort of k-22 an eight-person team comprised of design engineers and 5

l 23 operators to look at actually the way the system starts 24 up and operates."

O'- POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800; 262-4102

177 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

-([ JANUARY 27, 1998 1 So-that- area, at least as explained to 2 us, appears to have been re-evaluated by NU. And I 3 think they've identified -- they've identified some 4 additional areas that they're going to fix. However, 5

we need to overview that to make sure that then the CMP 6 program is complete. So that's going to be a part of 7 our Corrective Action Program, is going to be to 8 evaluate the NU corrective actions and how they enhance 9 their CMP as a result of-this inspection formulating.

10 Okay. Let me give you some -- still on g- 11 Unit 3 --

some statistics. And I think- these are W-12 probably as of today or yesterday.

0- 13 The total number of preliminary DR's --

14 and I stress preliminary. And what preliminary means 15 is that they've been_ issued by Sargent & Lundy based on 16 the information available to Sargent & Lundy. They-17 have not all been evaluated by NU yet. In fact, 18 McLaughlin had not.

4

, 19 So the total preliminary number of DR's 20 issued is 974. Of those 974 issued, Sargent & Lundy

$ 21 has closed 120, which means that Sargent & Lundy has 1 -

22 looked at the NU response, has agreed that NU has 5

l 23 adequately responded to the issue.

24 So closed would mean that they --

it O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

178

() AN R 98 1 would fall into three categories. These are -- they 2 could be either confirmed DR's, which means that, yes, 3 it's -- all agree that this is a problem that needs to 4 be fixed. They could be pre-identified, which would 5 mean that NU has presented information to Sargent &

6 Lundy indicating that NU had pre-identified the 7 problem. And -- or the third case would be they could l

8 be issues that on further information provided by NU 9 are not really problematic at all.

10 So, to go back, 974 preliminary DR's

$ 11 issued, 120 closed, 54 confirmed. And, again, 9

12 conf! ad meane that this -- both agree that --

or NU 13 agreas that this is a problem that needs to be fixed, i 14 To further elaborate on the 54 15 confirmed, 53 of those were Level 4. And, again, Level 16 4, as some of you know, is below the threshold of 17 regulatory concern on an individual level, which means l 18 that these issues are not really in non-conformance

. 19 with regard to the licensing basis. But there are f 20 minor editorial errors, minor calculational errors that O

. 21 don't affect the results of the calculation, minor b

= 22 document inconsistencies that don't cause a safety 5

l 23 concern. Again, they need to be fixed, not -- but not 24 -- but they're not an issue of non-conformance with the O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

179

() MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1 licensing basis. So of the 54, only one le a licensing 2 basis issue.

3 Unit 2. Unit 2 is not nearly as far 4 along. Parsons has done (indiscernible) Sargent &

5 Lundy. They started later, as you know. We have 6 performed an implementation inspection at Parsons to 7 evaluate whether or not Parsons is --

or how well 8

Parsons is implemented the order plan that was approved 9 by NRC. The report should be out next week.

10 Essentially, we've concluded that Parsons is doing a g 11 reasonable job in implementing 9

the order pla1. So we 12 have no question with their implementation.

13 I don't have as detailed information and 14 stats on Unit 2. But as of about a week ago, there 15 were about 170 preliminary DR's issued and 20 of those 16 were closed.

17 Mr. Markowic ?

{ 18 MR. MARKOWICZ: Under your Unit 3, do 19 you have the invalid? Do you have the rest of the 20 numbers of the 120? You said 54 were confirmed. Can

$ 21 you finish out to get to 120?

I. 22 MR. IMBRO: Let's see.

5 l 23 MR. MARKOWICZ: Do you have that?

24 MR. IMBRO: Okay. Well, the 974 --

POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

~_ ---_

180 At kR 8 1 MR. MARKOWICZ: No. Down to 120 -- 54 2 colifirmed . So it's the --

3 MR. IMBRO: Oh. No, I don't have that 4 in front of me. But I can get it for you. That's no 5 problem. I don't have that breakdown.

6 i

MS. PERRY LUXTON: What about 854?

7 A VOICE: 854.

8 MS, PERRY LUXTON: What happened to 854?

9 They're not closed? What are they?

10 MR. IMBRO: They're still in the 11 process.

12 MS, PERRY LUXTON: They're evaluating --

13 MR. IMBRO: Yes. Yes. They're not 14 going to be forgott0a. Believe me.

15 DR. TR.TVERS: Gene, can I just add one 16 thing to what you said on Level 4? Just so we -- we've 17 talked about this before, but let me just reiterate it.

l 18 Even though individual Lt.el 4 findings

. 19 are not significant, they are being evaluated. And the f 20 reason they're included in the scope of this review is O

. 21 we want to in the aggregate see if they present a trend

= 22 that suggests the need to perhaps expand our look or E

l 23 have the licensee do something more in the context of 24 their program.

POST REPOR iNG SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 u

181

() JA1 R 2 8 i So, in addition to individual Level 4 2 findings, we are attempting to assess whether or nat 3 there is any significance to the aggregate. And an 4 example of that might be, you know, if you look at how 5 many opportunities there might have been in a 6 particular area to find a finding, that might suggest 7 in a relative proportion whether or not that's a 8 problem. If you look in a particular area, mechanical 9 discipline, sedimentation and control, for example, you 10 might suggest that if you got an unreasonable or an g 11 alarming rate of identified insignificant, relatively 12 insignificant issues but itevertheless issues in one 13 area, that we might -- that might suggest either us or 14 they looking for -- or, fet example, if these findings 15 showed up in particular documents, FSAR or some other 16 particular type of document that the licensee produces, 17 it might suggest a need to go out and look at those

$ 18 documents.

l. 19 So, in addition to recognizing the 20 relative low significance of Level 4's, we're O

. 21 attempting to assess the impact or the meaning, if k=

22 there is any, in the aggregate findings.

5 l 23 MR. IMBRO: Yes? Please.

24 MR. JOE NAZAR: What is the oblig --

POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

182 (g) AllkR 9 8 1 MR. IMBRO: Come on. Come up.

2 MR. NAZAR: What is the obligation to 3 close --

4 MR. IMBRO: Please come up and -- people 5 can't hear you. And they can't record you on tape.

6 They'd like to hear j<ur voice.

7 MR. NAZAR: Hi. Joe Nazar, Pittsburgh, 8 Pennsylvania. My question is to the 974 DR's. What is 9 the agreement in terms of bringing those to final 10 adjudication prior to any vote for restart?

g 11 MR. IMBRO: Well, they're going to be U

12 evaluated through the NU restart evaluation process, 13 So not all -- I mean clearly if it's an issue where it 14 involves a non-conformance with the plant's licensing 15 basis, those will be completed -- corrective actions 16 will be completed before restart.

17 Some of the issues, for example, the l 18 Level 4's, they're, again, they're not really non-19 conformance with the licensing basis. They need to 20 recognize that there are some mistakes out there that I 21 need to be fixed and they're correct those. And we're ig 22 going to them track to make sure that they get s

l 23 completed. But those may not be completed prior to 24 restart and there would be no need to.

POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

183 lll AlikR 9 8 1 However, I mean, as Dr. Travers said, if 2 there are so programmatic implications that out of the 3 Level 4 trending, those --

that type of programmatic 4 issue would need to be resolved prior to restart.

5 MR. NAZAR: So then if --

(({ 6 MR. IMBRO: But the individual -- the 7 individual issues for Level 4's may not be completed --

8 all may not be completed before restart.

9 MR. NAZAR: So then if I understand you 10 correctly, the balance of 850 DR's, the preliminary

@ 11 level, will ultimately -- NU and Sargent & Lundy will d

12 come to an agreement as to their level and 13 significance, et cetera, prior to the NRC making --

14 looking at all the data and then making generalizations 15 and conclusions --

16 MR. IMBRO: Yes.

17 MR. NAZAR: -- based on that.

18 MR. IMBRO: Yes.

I. 19 MR. NAZAR: And thea. that will happen 20 prior to the tentative restart vote in April?

$ 21 MR. IMBRO: That's right. They're going i 22 to go -- all DR's g will go through the process betore s

l 23 restart. All I'm saying is that the actual corrective 24 --

physical corrective action making all these POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

184 g M R 98 1 editorial corrections may not necessarily be done 2 before restart.

3 MR. NAZAR: I'm just surprised, given 4 the rate of closure so far, that NU seems to feel it ,

5 has sufficient resources to meet the April vote date, 6 given that there are 700 still open.

7 MR. IMBRO: I mean, clearly, there's a 8 challenge. There's a lot of work here on the table.

9 But that's sotrathing that they need to address.

10 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: John? Bill?

R 11 DR. TRAVERS: Can I j ust make a comment, 0

12 John? After your question and answer, I would propose, 13 if people will indulge me a few minutes, to add a 14 little bit something to our previous discussions about 15 ICAVP and the process the staff is using to assess 16 whether or not and what kind of expansion of ICAVP 17 scope might be appropriate.

$ 18 We've done some thinking. We've had 19 some criticisms of that in the 9ast. We've had a lot 20 of discussion at that meeting. 'ad if I may, I'd like

$ 21 to take an opportunity to talk about that just briefly.

1

- 22 MR. MARKOWICZ: This is John Markowicz 5

l 23 again, also known as Mouthpiece. Gene, could you 24 explain exactly -- if you do this trending of the Level POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

185 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

(]) JANUARY 27, 1998 1 4's and you've closed out Tier 2 and Tier 3, which are 2 programmatic, could you explain logically what the 3 relationship may or may not be and how you would deal 4 with it? Because, you clearly, if end up with a 5 trending from Level 4 that's programmatic and you've 6 closed out Tier 2 and Tier 3 and they're programmatic 7 issues, it kind of makes you wonder about Tier 2 Tier 8 3. I'm asking for a logical explanation --

9 MR. IMBRO: Okay. Yes.

10 MR. MARKOWICZ: --

of how that's going

$ 11 to tie tegether.

U 12 MR. IMBRO: I'm trying to relate this.

13 I mean all of the Level 4 issues could come out of Tier 14 1, Tier 2 or Tier 3, 15 MR. MARKOWICZ: Oh. Okay.

16 MR. IMBRO: So I mean there would be --

17 so what we're doing is we're looking at the DR's no l 18 matter where they come from, from whatever aspect of I. 19 the Sargent & Lundy review. We'll try and put -- we f 20 have a relational data base set up in access. And so 0

, 21 what we're trying to look for are trends.

1

= 22 For example, if there are a large number 5

l 23 of calculational errors in the mechanical engineering 24 area, then that may suggest that NU may need to go back POST RFPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

186

({} A kR 98 1

and do some broader review in that area to see if there 2 are any significant problems that come up. I mean it 3 may go back and find, " Gee. Okay. There are other 4 minor errors. But there don't seem to be any -- you 5 know, no safety issues come for the fore." So it's 6 that kind of thing we're looking at.

7 So it's not really a Tier 1, Tier 2, 8 Tier 3. But it's really a combination of all. So 9 we're looking at things like errors perhaps in the FSAR 10 or drawing errors or field installation errors or some g 11 things --

things of that sort where you could say s

12 "There seems to be a weakness here. We haven't really 13 found a safety problem based on -- because they're t

I 14 Level 4's. But, still, it would peak our interest to 15 say maybe we should look more in that area because 16 maybe there is something there that's been missed.

17 MR. MARKOWICZ: So I guess what I'm hung l 18 up on is the word " programmatic." My understanding was 19 Tier 3 kind of looked --

20 MR. IMBRO: Oh.

$ 21 MR. MARKOWICZ: Tier 2 and 3 looked at

b. 22 programmatic. And so when you say --

I

[ 23 MR. IMBRO: I'm sorry.

24 MR. MARKOWICZ: -- programmatic trending O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

187 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS lg) JANUARY 27, 1998 1 of Tier 1 Level 4's, I'm wondering --

g 2 MR. IMBRO: No. You're right. And 3 that's a good question. I probably should clarify.

4 Tier 3 did look at programmatic areas in terms of 5 commercial grade dedication, Master Grippens part list, 6 set point control, those types of things. What we 7 suggested -- and the trending is not so much errors in 8 those particular programs but othe' types of things, 9 like specific types of errors in documents or a large 10 number of arithmetical errors in calculations. I guess g 11 maybe programmatic is a bad word. But it's -- maybe 0

12 generic is a better word for that.

13 DR. TRAVERS: John, before you leave, 14 let me suggest two possible paths in Level 4 for the 15 identification of trends and any follow-up that we 16 might have.

17 Path No. 1 is based on numerous Level 4 18 findings. Corrective actions will be developed the l

. 19 licensee. The expectation in any good Corrective 20 Action Program isn't that -- not just that issue, but

$ 21 the broader implications of that issue be assessed by l 22

the licensee.

s l 23 So Path 1 goes something like this.

24 Before we ever developed conce about a trend, the O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

188 MEETIN R 14 I TO!E UNITS 1 licensee does the very same thing. It addresses in its 2 planned corrective actions both the correction of that 3 issue and the broader question.

4 In that event, it's my expectation that 5 we would independently verify that they were doing that

] 6 and that we would not, quote, unquote, " expand the 7 ICAVP" as a consequence.

8 Path No. 2 would be in the aggregate I_ 9 again, Level 4 findings indicate some sort of trend R 10 which we identify and which the licensee's Corrective

$ 11 Action Program does not assess and hasn't e.ssess?d.

9 12 In that instance, we might likely do 13 something independent. We might ask Sargent & Lundy to 14 do something. We might turn it on the licensee to do 15 something. You know, it's sort of an expectation that 16 we would confirm that the necessary actions are taken 17 somehow, some way, and that in this case, it could work l 18 different ways.

19 MR. MARKOWICZ: I understand.

20 DR. TRAVERS: And that leads in to what e

. 21 I wanted to discuss for just a few minutes. You can

!- 22 sit down, if you'd like. You may have questions after E

l 23 I say my piece.

24 We have had a lot of opportunities and O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

189 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS lll JANUARY 27, 1998 1 Mr. Delcore and Mr. Markowicz and others in the 2 audience to discuss from the very outset the construct 3 of our ICAVP Program. The order, of course, was issued 4 in August of '96. And since the issuance of that 5 order, the NRC staff here really has been charged with ll[ 6 how we were going to -- you know, how we were going to k) 7 sort of dictate the boundaries of that program. We've s

8 done a lot of work to do that.

9 And back in January of '97 in a paper, M 10 we identified, consintent with the purpose of this

$ 11 order, which was to conform that the licensee met its

'J 12 licensing design basis, that our program and its 13 acceptance criteria for assessing performance of the 14 utility in assuring that same thing was going to use 15 that as the acceptance criteria for our program.

16 We've had a lot of discussion about that 17 and whether tnat's a reasonable thing to do. But that l 18 was the way the order was constructed and that was the 19 fundc. mental acceptance criteria, regulatory standard, f 20 if you will, that the staff has been using.

. 21 Nevertheless, when we attempted to come

!- 22 before the public at meetings such as this and describe 5

l 23 what we were doing, a legitimate concern in my mind 24 arose from people who attend our meetings. And that e POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l

190 Al R 98 1 concern had to do with, "Well, can you explain in more 2 detail how you are going to implement that program and 3 under what circumstances you might expand the scope of 4 what you originally are doing?" You know, we picked 15 5 --

people have talked about four systems. That's not 6 right. There are 15 systems being evaluated under 7 ICAVP.

8 But that aside, you can argue whether 15 9 or four is enough. But, nevertheless, we received a l 10 criticism and we attempted in public meetings to reect g 11 to that criticism, to present what was in our mind, at

9 12 least, as to how we were going to proceed as we were 13 faced with the inevitable findings that we expected 14 fully to find in the course of our examination.

15 And in doing that, we developed four 16 levels of significance that correlate to those original 17 definitions in our January Commission Paper of defect; l 18 in other words, something that demonstrates a non-I. 19 conformance with the licensing basis, and deficiency, f 20 something that we're going to look for but doesn't --

O

, 21 and those four levels of significance, fully consistent l 22 with those original definitions, at least for Level 3 l 23 indicated that for the first three levels of 24 significance any finding would be categorized either as POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 l

1

191 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

  • JANUARY 27, 1998 1 something that conformed or didn't conform with the 2 licensing basis.

3 Three levels of non-conforming 4 categories were developed, Levels 1, Levels 2, ana 5 Levels 3. The fourth level is the one we've just been 6 discussing. And it has to do with any findings that 7 fell below that regulatory standard of conformance with 8 the licensing basis. And we said that even though that 9 was tha case, we were going to look for them anyhow 10 because we -- we recognized that multiple examples of 11 that kind of thing could put into question the l

12 licensing basis in areas that we hadn't looked.

13 What was requested, in ;ny 14 characterization, at some of the meetings was something 15 more. And we attempted to further, in addition to 16 identifying the categories or significance levels of 17 the kinds of findings that might occur, we attempted to-l 18 describe the corresponding NRC actions that would 19 result or could result or would likely result from 20 identified findings of those different levels of C

. 21 significance.

22 So we discussed those at a public g

l 23 meeting as well. And the criticism we got, and I think 24 it certainly still exists in the minds of several, and POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

Mt-192 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

(]) JANUARY 27, 1998 1 many perhaps, was that we had put corresponding NRC 2 actions that were not automatic, were not prescriptive i 3 enough, were not definite enough, left wiggle room or 4 were vague.

5 And we held and continue to hold to the 6 view that that's an appropriate reaction or that's an

, 7 appropriate way to carry out these complex licensing 8 and design basis level reviews because automatir 9 thresholds -- we're saying if you get "X" number of j 10 those or "Y" number of these, you're going to react in g 11 exactly this way or exactly that way, didn't strike us u

12 as something that we could legitimately predeterminate 13 in advance of having reviewed the significance of the 14 finding and the corrective actions being implemented by 15 the licensee and so on.

16 Nevertheless, for Le* 31 1 we indicated 17 that NRC would likely pick a whole new system, likely l 18 pick a whole other system to expand ICAVP if we got one 19 Level 1 finding. But that was likely. It didn't say 20 definitely. It said likely.

. 21 Level 2. Level 2 -- well, I should tell b

22 you what Level 1 is. Level 1 is the failure of an 3

l 23 entire safety system, both trains if they're redundant.

24 Level 2 involves the failure of one O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

193 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS lgg JANUARY 27, 1998 1 train of a multiple-train safety system. And for Level 2 2, we said again the NRC would likely expand the ICAVP 3 scope, not so much to pick a whole other system this 4 time, but to identify in other systems or evaluate in 5 other systems potential similar non-conformances.

6 Again, we said likely. And we were not -- we did not 7 commit any further than that to what we would do.

8 And in Level 3, we indicated that we 9 would assess those issues and the resultant corrective 10 actions on the part of the licensee to make a similar g 11 determination, would -- in fact, in this case, instead V

12 of saying likely, we say could result in the expansion 13 of scope to look for similar non-conformances in other 14 systems.

15 And, again, we just discussed Level 4.

16 In? in Level 4, we said we would look for trends.

17 We have recei' red some additional l 18 criticism of late for that. And it's in an Office of 19 the Inspector General Report that suggested that that 20 approach is, in fact, vague and not very helpful. We

$ 21 have looked at that criticism and your criticism and b

22 we've -- we are attempting, and we're going to try to 5

l 23 document some additional discussion of our intentions 24 as we have been carrying out this program.

O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

194 lgg All R 98 1 And I thought I'd just touch on each one 2 of those for you, if I may, to give you a sense of what 3 we're trying to do. Basically, or sort of 4 fundamentally, without giving you the details -- and 5 those we're going to try to document in letters to

))} 6 NEAC, to the ICAVP contractors and to NU. And 7 certainly they're going to receive b" cad public 8 distribution.

9 But the fundamental objectives and what 10 the additional discussion would indicate has to do with

$ 11 making clear references to our regulatory standards u

12 that we use every day, Appendix B, Criterion 16, 13 Generic Letter 91-18 which discusses non-conformances 14 and how utilities deal with disposition of non-15 conformances.

16 The second thing we tried to do is make 17 more specific the process. Who has the authority? Who l 18 has the responsibility? Who gets briefed on findings?

19 How quickly are decisions made on expansion of scope?

20 How are they documented?

. 21 We are going to further explain the

- 22 process we're using for assessing the effectiveness of E

l 23 corrective actions in reaching decisions on whether or 24 not to expand the ICAVP scope. Corrective actions, we O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

195 MEETING R MI E UNITS 1 think, are fundamental to this process. Perhaps not so 2 much in Levels 1 and 2, but certainly in Levels 3 and 3 4. Again, in Levels 1 and 2, absent -- I'll give you 4 an example, 5 In Level 1, we're going to document 6 that, absent an Executive Director for Operations' 7 determination that we don't expand the ICAVP scope by 8 picking another system, we're going to. So we're go!.ng 9 to document that as a position or a likely, you know, 10 likely position.

g 11 Level 2, we'd do something similar but c

12 it would target the Director of the Office Nuclear 13 Reactor Regulation as the negative, you know, person 14 who would have to intervene in such an expansion of j 15 scope.

16 Again, generally, what we're going to 17 discuss and document emphasizes that when we look at l 18 corrective actions in our ICAVP determinations on 19 whether or not to expand scope, we're looking at them 20 from the context of an independent verification by the O

4

, 21 NRC staff. We're not just going to rely cn what NU g 22 says it's doing relative to the performance of s

l 23 corrective actions.

24 And lastly, it will further discuss in O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i

196

(]} JAN R 2 8 1 both Levels 3 and Levels 4 how we're going to be 2 looking at the aggregate of findings. I think I've 3 just discussed for Level 4 how that would be done. And 4 we're going to do exactly the same kind of process --

4 5 it's always been in our -- you knew, we've always 6 talked about this, but we're going to try to further 7 discuss it and document the appr; ch that we've been 8 using for assessing the --

sort of the aggregate of 9 multiple Level 3 or multiple Level 4 findings.

10 So we recognize the value. I've always g 11 recognized it. In clearly communicating what our t

12 intentions are, I don't know that we're always perfect 13 in how we go about it. I'm not sure that we'll be 14 perfect this time. But we wanted to take the 15 opportunity in the face of the opportunities we've had 16 up here to discuss this with you to document what we're 17 doing and how we' re doing it a little bit better. And l 18 so we're looking to do that in the relative near term.

19 And we'll certainly be open to discuss it at future 20 public meetings or answer any questions you might have

$ 21 tonight about that as well.

1 22

. MR. PETER BOWMAN: My name is Peter 5

4 l 23 Bowman. I'm from New Haven. I worked as an engineer 24 for some 30-odd years. And one of the necessities for O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

197 MEETIll RE !I TOli UNITS 1 the job that I was always told was that one was able to 2 produce simple and concise reports, easily understood.

3 And I don't think I would have lasted very long in the 4 job ths" I was in if I needed three pages of acronyms 5 to produce the report.

6 That enid, the thing . hat I'm -- that 7 bothers me about all this is that the 88 systems here -

8 -

I don't know what all the systems are. But I think 9 it was Don Delcore said that four of the systems have 10 been looked at and the NRC is saying, well, they're g 11 loing to look at 15.

'J 12 Well, taking even the 15, what I would 13 like to know and what I would like to get information 14 on are the 73 systems that are not being looked at.

15 And in respect to the safety of the plant, how do they 16 rate with the systems that are being examined? I mean 17 if these are lesser safety level or greater safety 18 level or are they picked by random? And I think we 1 19 need to know what these systems are and what relation 20 they have to t.he systems that are being examined.

$ 21 MR. IMBRO: Let me try and answer that. j i 22 The way the systems were picked were -- we used several

[ 23 criteria. First we used risk. So we try and pick --

24 so the more important systems in tccms of accident O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEU, CT (800) 262-4102

198

MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS Q JANUARY 27, 1998 1 mitigation functions so that systems that were 2 important from a risk standpoint.

3 Secondly, we tried to pick systems tnat 4 were more complex. We'd be more apt to find problems ,

5 there. Also, we tried to pick systems that had been 6 modified since original license or extensively modified 7 since original license. Again, more likely to find 8 errors.

9 So we used a number of -- a number of 10 criteria co try and pick a representative sample of 4

g 11 systems that were significant.

U 12 Further, the fact that Sargent & Lundy 13 has looked at 15 and we've looked at some, you also 14 have to understand that NU has looked at all of the 88 15 systems. And so the 15-system overlay on top of that 16 was to assess the NU review of all 88 systems. So, 1 17 clearly, as Dr. Travers-said, if we fir.d that there are 18 -- if the systems we look at have significant problems, I, 19 then that may indicate that we expand time scope and 20 look at other things that NU did. So this was a sample

$ 21 approach, in a sense, although it's a rather extensive i

. 22 sample because 15 systems were looked at rather 1

l 23 thoroughly and pieces of other systems as well.

24 But, again, you know, NU, thro 6gh their A

POST REPORTING SERVICE RAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4.'02

i 1

i 199

, MSETIN R  ! II TO!JE UNITS 1 -- usf r.g the word CMP. That's the Configuration 2 Management Plan -- has gone back and they themselves 3 have looked in a fashion at all the 88 systems. And so 4 by looking at 15, we can use that as a means to judge 5 how effective their review was. And, again if we find 6 areas of weakness, then that we. ald .0 .icate perhaps, 7 you know, that wc need to lor,k further. But based --

8 if the results, if the outcone of the Sargent & Lundy 9 review and our oversight is relatively positive, then I 10 think we're going to use that as a way to extrapolate e 11 that reuult to the other systems.

12 MR. BOWMAN: That seems very strange to 13 me; I mean that the NRC, that you people are mandated 14 to look out for public health and safety, but what 15 you're saying to me is that you're relying on NU, a 16 company which has decades of lying and obfuscation and 17 keeping dark from the public all their mismanagement l 18 problems, and you're telling me that you're relying on 19 their criteria to accept these systems.

20 MR. IMBRO: No. I don't think you

$ 21 understood. We're relying on our oversight, both the l

. 22 Sargent & Lundy oversight and our o ersight of NU's I

l 23 review. So we're really relying on their review.

24 We're doing our own independent look. And we're basing O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

_ sam W'7P-9'

200

(]) JAl RY 2 98

, i 2 out conclusions on that result, not what NU's telling 2 us.

3 MR. BOWMAN: Another question. Are 4 these 88 systems through the whole of the three? Are 5 the *bree Millstones included here or just --

6 MR. IMBRO: No , no. That's just for --

7 that's just for Milletone 3.

8 MR. BOWMAN: Just for Millstone 3.

9 MR. IMBRO: Yes. I think something 10 comparable on Unit 2.

P 11 MR. BOWMAN: Well, and we're hoping that W

12 Millstone 1 is never going to open. But what about 13 Millstone 2? How many systems are involved there?

14 MR. IMBRO: As I said -- I don't know '

15 the exact number there. I would say something like 12 16 to 14. I don't really know. I don't have it on the 17 top of my head.

18 MR. BOWMAN: So do we -- it would seem, l- 19 you know, to me I mean --

20 MR. IMBRO: Same type of process, f 21 MR. BOWMAN: As a reasonable person, it 1g 22 would ceem to be an impossibility to meet these

, 5

( 23 schedules that NU keeps putting in the newspaper about 24 their opening dates.

O -

POST REPORTING SERVICE RAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

201

(]) JAli AR 2 98 1 MR. IMBRO: Well, I mean we can't really 2 -- I think, you know --

3 MR. BOWMAN: I mean wouldn't we --

4 MR. IMBRO: We're not going to let the 5 plant start up until the job --

6 MR. BOWMAN: Yes. I mean wouldn't the 7 public be more reassured if the NRC came out and said, 8 "Well, you know, this pie in the sky, this stuff, and 9 there's no way in the world that they take this 10 corrective action, have the NRC do a proper inspection

, g 11 and open up at the dates at which they say"? I mean u

12 the public would be more reassured that the NRC is 13 doing their job if they did this.

14 MR. IMBRO: But we're not --

15 MR. DOWMAN: But I don't see that.

16 MR. IMBRO: We're not really focused on 17 their schedule. We're focused on getting the job done 18 and having the plants restarted safely, if they --

! 19 MR. BOMWAN: Well, I understand that.

20 But it would seem --

h 21 DR. TRAVERS: I think that even -- we 1 -

22 think and the licensee would even probably agree that t

[ 23 this is a challenging schedule, that --

24 MR. BOWMAN: Yes. But, see, the problem O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

202 MEETIN R !I TO!1 UNITS 1 is -- you know, down in New Haven we don't get too much 2 news in the newspaper. But it would be nice to read in 3 the newspaper that the NRC thinks the NU echedule is a 4 lot of baloney and a more proper date would be 5 somewhere in, you know, five years down the road or 6 something like that, whatever it is.

l 7 DR. TRAVERS: I think we would say that t 8 if that's what we felt. I mean it's --

9 MR. BOWMAN: Well, we don't see it in 10 the papers.

11 $R. TRAVERS: Well, no. I said if we 12 felt that was true.

13 MR. BOWMAN: But I mean all this aside, 14 all this aside -- and I may be off the subject of the 15 corrective action. But I think it was Carl B. Morgan 16 who was the father of physics said many, many years 17 ago, I forget, about 20 years ago, that the exposures 18 to workers in nuclear plants would be reduced by a 5 19 factor of ten. But he said if they did that, these 20 things would never operate. And that's the criteria

$ 21 you should be looking at now. We should be looking at l 22 the exposure to the public, the exposure to the workers

_l 23 and to reduce the radiation limits to something where 24 these plants would not be able to operate. And they POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

2 c .,

MEETIN R !I TO!J UNITS 1 can't operate now economically with all the radiation 2 that they're pouring out now on a normal basis. So all 3 I would say is that we need the NRC -- and I hope that 4 when Dr. Jackson comes here, that we can address the 5 question of exposures and the whole question of 6 radiation safety with respect to nuclear power plants.

7 Thank you.

8 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Thank you.

9 MS. BOWMAN: Would you have a list of 10 the systems that are not being looked at? Could we p 11 have such a list?

U 12 MP. , IMBRO: Sure. Yes.

13 MS. BOWMAN: Would you please give it to 14 us?

15 Mk. IMBRO: Yes. I'll talk to you after 16 the meeting. I'll be happy to give it to y a.

17 Don?

l 18 MR. DELCORE: Those are DR's, 19 deficiencies, for those of you who are not aware of 7

f 20 them. A lot of deficiencies.

$ 21 MR. IMBRO: Yes. But I think they're I 22 preliminary. So why don't you just, you know, g

l 23 characterize them properly?

24 MR. DELCORE: Well, let me say that the POST REPORTING SERVICE j HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

. . - . - a

204 MEETING RE: MILLOTONE UNITS

-(]) JANUARY 27, 1998 1 last report that I got from Sargent & Lundy, there were 2 855 preliminary and some 700 that were validated.

3 MR. IMBRO: But, again, validated means 4 that they've gone through the Sargent & Lundy review 5 process and that bssed on information available to 6 Sargent & Lundy, Sargent & Lundy management feels like 7 these are -- these are valid issues that need to be 8 addressed. It doesn't mean that they're --

that

') they're confirmed. They need to look at the NU 10 response. Again, these are issues that may have been p 11 previously identified by NU or they may have -- they u

12 may not be issues at all.

13 MR. DELCORE: Okay. And --

14 MR. IMBRO: So they need additional 15 documentation.

16 MR. DELCORE: Right. And assuming that 17 they were previously identified from NU, that doesn't 18 say that they're fixed.

i

_ 19 MR. IMBRO: But the --

20 MR. DELCORE: Obviously, because Sargent

$ 21 & Lundy found them.

I. 22 MR. IMBRO: Well, but -- but they're in I

[ 23 the NU process to be fixed. And soma of the -- and 24 depending on whether or not the pre, post-restart, O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

205 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS h JAINARY 27, 1998 1 depending on how the screens have been, when they'll be 2 fixed.

3 MR. DELCORE: Right. And no we're 4 assuming that a good amount of them aren't going to be '

5 fixed before start-up.

6 MR. IMBRO: I don't really know. I 7 mean, again, I think there's a screening process that's l 8 been established by im. We've looked at it. We've l

9 done inspections of it. We agree with the process. We 10 agree with the criteria for pre, post-restart.

p 11 So if these issues involve a non-u n

V 12 conformance with the licensing basis, they will be 13 fixed before restart.

14 MR. DELCORE: Okay. In the preliminary 15 --

or in the last report that I attended with Sargent &

16 Lundy, again 855 I think were initiated, 700 were 17 validated by Sargent & Lundy.

l 18 MR. IMBRO: Yes.

19 MR. DELCORE: And some 224 of those were 4

20 Level 3's and some 454 of those were Level 4's.

$ 21 MR. IMBRO: But, again, you're talking 1

22 preliminary DR's. That's what --

the numbers are 5

[ 23 probably right. I won't argue with the numbers.

24 MR. DELCORE: Well, no. I'm just going O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

l _.

206 Q A AR 7 98 1 by their report.

l 2 MR. IMBRO: That's fine. Okay. But, 3 again, they're preliminary. They haven't been - they 4 haven't go a through the process yet.

5 MR. DELCORE: Okay.

6 MR. IMBRO: Okay.

7 MR. And DELCORE: if you look 8 categorically, there were six particular categorie, 9 that kind of jumped out at me out of the 855.

10 MR. IMBRO: Okay, g 11 MR. DELCORE: Some 275 dealt with 9

12 calculation errors, be it Level 3 or Level 4. But they 13 dealt with calculation errors. Some 100 of them dealt 14 with PNID or schematic errors which were in ^1ved, 15 again Level 3 or Level 4.

16 Isnd I think what's important to point 17 out here, if you go down and look, there were about six 18 categories that kind of jump right out where there were

! 19 60, 70, 80 and again 100 and 275 of particular issues 20 that essentially appeared to be the same, such that

? 21 Sargent & Lundy, the NRC and NU all agreed t' hat they 1 22 were categories in that area.

I J 23 MR. IMBRO: Yes.

24 MR. DELCORE: So that seems to be POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

207 JAl AR 98 l 1 indicative of some programmatic issues.

2 MR. IMBRO: I mean we -- yeo. I 3 wouldn't disagree. I think --

4 MR. DELCORE: Okay.

5 MR. IMBRO: In fact, I think we're 6 probably going to expand beyond those six because, like 7 I say, we we ourselves and have -- NU and Sargent &

8 Lundy ate sorting the data in different ways. And I 9 think what you just indicated are or could be 10 indicative of areas where NU may have to do additional

g. 11 work. I mean we may decide that, you know, there's a u

12 negative trend in this area of there's a trend where 13 there are a lot of calculational errors that, as you're 14 saying, sort of pop out rt you and say, " Hey, you know, 15 are there other things that -- although the individual 16 problems may themselves not be safety significant or 17 may not really affect the results of the calculation to 18 any significant degree, it still would indicate that V

19 there may be additional review we need to give us f 20 additional confidcace that there weren't problems wide

$ 21 in this area that are safety significant, 1

22 DR. TRAVERS: You are talking about j 23 9lements of the corrective action process that is to be 24 conducted for any --

O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

208

({} Ali AR 98 1 MR. IMBRO Yes.

2 MR. DELCORE: Well, let me address those 3 two issues. First of all, we're talking about, be it 4 four or fifteen systems, you know, however you want to 5 look at it. It doesn't really make any difference.

6 MR. IMBRO: Well, it's 15, 7 MR. DELCORE: But we're still talking 8 about safety-significant and risk-significant systems.

9 Okay? So any discrepancy associated with the licensing 10 basis, associated with the incorrectness of a print or g 11 a roadmap or a piping diagram is significant because v

12 we're talking about 15 systems out of 88 that are 13 significant in terms of risk and safety. You guys have 14 said that yourself.

15 So how can you legitimize and say that 16 any issue that's discovered by Sargent & Lundy and 17 verified by Northeast Utilities or anybody else, that 18 it's a relatively -- how it --

it's below regulatory

! 19 concern?

20 I mean I've listened to Marty Bowling f 21 telling us about that there Sust wasn't any real major k

22 problems. But, you know, that's not what I read in

} 23 these documents. There's some kind of interesting 24 Level 3 issues in here about fuel and not doing safety O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

209 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1 reviews on reconstituted fueli that is to say that 2 they've taken out the fuel that was expended after 3 three cycles and replaced it with fuel and then didn't 4 do a safety review associated with that new core. I 5 mean there's some pretty significant issues in here.

6 So what I'm saying to you is that I --

7 MR. IMBRO: Preliminary.

8 MR. DELCORE: Yes. 't

. still -- it's 9 preliminary, but it's demonstrative of a number --

10 there's a thousand issues that Sargent & Lundy says g 11 there's a problem with. And NU has come back and said, d

12 "We agree with 120 so far. There's still 800 we've got 13 to look at."

14 MR. IMBRO: And they will be looked at.

15 I mean --

16 MR. DELCORE: But, Gene, even you.

17 yourself, publicly have said that there's a lot of l 18 issues here.

19 MR. IMBRO: Well, you know -- you know, 20 a thousand is a large number.

$ 21 MR. DELCORE: I don't think anybody that i 22 I recogni::e in this room ever expected that we'd be l 23 talking about a thousand DR's.

24 MR. IMBRO: Well--

POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

__ _ _ _ _ - - _ - - - . - - - . ~

210

(]) AI AR 98 1 MR. DELCORE: That was just not the 2 realm of what we expected.

3 MR. IMBRO: But --

4 DR. TRAVERS: Don, I think you're right.

5 And I think that's in some measure attributable to the 6 level of effort that's being applied here and the depth 7 of the review.

8 MR. DELCORE: I am --

9 DR. TRAVERS: (Indiscernible) experience 10 going at these kinds of reviews in this fashion. So P 11 Level 4 -- lots of Level 4's, I agree with you.

0 12 MR. DELCORE: A substantial number of 13 Level 3's.

14 DR. TRAVERS: Well --

15 MR. DELCORE: About a third of them are 16 Level 3's.

17 DR. TRAVERS: But let's -- let's make l 18 sure we're not mischaracterizing the situation _yet.

19 Those may, in fact, all be confirmed. Every one of 20 them may be. But they're not yet.

$ 21 MR. DELCORE: Right.

.l 22 DR. TRAVERS: So let's not -- let's not 5

l 23 lose sight of that.

24 MR. DELCORE: Okay.

O POST REPORTING SERVICE RAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

211 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 1 DR. TRAVERS: The process we've put in 2 place, it's going to be applied to all of these issues.

3 MR. DELCORE: Okay.

4 DR. TRAVERS: So that we can at the end 5 of the day come before you and the public and tell you 6 what happened.

7 MR. DELCORE: Okay.

8 DR. TRAVERS: But in advance of that, 9 let's not, you know -- let's not reach a judgment 10 that's not warranted, at least at this point.

P 11 MR. DELCORE: Except that if we look at V

12 the six categories, I think we can reach a judgment,

)

13 that categorically there are six different issues that 14 seem to be prevalent in either the issues which they 15 have already resolved between them and NU or those 16 which they initiated to begin with.

17 In other words, the interpretation that l 18 I got from Sargent & Lundy at the meeting was that it 19 seems to be the same ratio of those six categories.

20 DR. TRAVERS: And you may be right. And O

. 21 I think Gene has sort of alluded to that.

l

= 22 MR. DELCORE: Okay.

5 l 23 DR. TRAVERS: And, again, I think there 24 are two paths for that.

O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

212 MEETIN R MI TO!E UNITS 1 MR. DELCORE: Okay.

2 DR. TRAVERS: For what could occur as a 3 result of that. One in what I'll call the corrective 4 action path. And that is that we don't reach that 5 conclusion absent NU reaching the same conclusion. And 6 once they do, we expect their corrective actions will 7 apply horizontally as well.

8 MR. DELCORE: Okay.

9 DR. TRAVERS: Now, you know, if you 10 assess that and you find that it's working right, 11 that's a good indication that, you know, their program-12 is going to pick up and apply the, you know, the extent O .3 of condition criteria for --

14 MR. DELCORE: Okay. Now, let's put the 15 corrective action issue in perspective a little bit.

16 DR. TRAVERS: Sure.

17 MR. DELCORE: In May, the licensee said, l 18 "Here's all the 50.54f issues. And I'm ready for an 19 ICAVP." And in June, they documented an issue of 20 backflow to the reactor water storage tank but didn't--

$ 21 June. It was some time in June that they documented 1 22 that in a CR, put a --

l 23 DR. TRAVERS: That was ours.

24 MR. DELCORE: Excuse me?

POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 j

l 213

() JAl AR 2 98 1 DR. TRAVERS: 1 think that was our 2 finding in our inspection. No?

3 MR. DELCORE: No, no, no, no. This was 4 in June.

5 DR. TRAVERS: A different one. I G MR. DELCORE: Right. No. It's the same 7 issue.

8 DR. TRAVERS: No. This was a CR.  !

9 MR DELCORE: CR. Okay. So they wrote 10 a CR in June, but they wrote a Level 2 on it and made 11 it- a restart issue. But nothing was done about it at 12 Lll. Along gave the out-of-scope ICAVP review and it 13 found that issue. And NU wrote another CR because they 14 didn't know the first one Existed. Okay? So now we've 15 got two CR's on that issue and there isn't any --

16 anything that anybody can demonstrate that they took 1

17 any action towards_ addressing that rather significant 18 issue, at least if you would listen to the NRC say that '

! 19 that's a fairly significant _ssue, both with respect to 20 them not being able to find it in the CMP and with

$ 21 respect to being outside possible dosage lim.ts to the 1

1 22 public in terms of health and safety,

-l 23 So fairly significant issue. They 24 assign a Level 2. They don't --

POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

214 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 1 DR. TRA'fERS : Sounds like --

2 MR. DELCORE: Hmm?

3 DR. TRAVERS: Sounds like we're being 4 appropriately cr!.tical.

5 MR. DELCORE: Well --

G DR. TRAVERS: You're commenting on our 7 characterization.

8 MR. DELCORE: Yes. But what I'm saying 9 is that here we have something that was assigned a 10 Level 2 that probably should have been a Level 1. And Q 11 I've listened to a number of meetings uhereby we've 0

12 been told in the public that the corrective action 13 program is a very high quality and is a good program.

14 I'm not absolutely convinced by any of what I have just 15 seen --

16 MR. IMBRO: I don't think we've reached 17 that conclusion yet.

l 18 DR. TRAVERS: We never --

'9 MR DELCORE: Oh, Okay.

20 MR. IMBRO: I don't think we've said the

$ 21 corrective action program is --

l 22 MR. DELCORE: But I'm very concerned l 23 about that little fiasco, 24 MR. IMBRO: We still have two O POST REPORTING SERVICE RAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

j 215 MEETIli R I4ILI T0!J UllITS 4

1 inspections here. l 2 MR. DELCORE: And more importantly --

3 yes. But I don't think we're at the point that we 4 ought to be conducting those inspections yet, Gene.

5 When you have the problems that we just identified with 6 regard to the corrective action, I see no reason for 7 you to be conducting a 40,500 inspection because I 8 don't think they're ready and the indications are 9 they're not ready. And so I'm very concerned about 10 that. And I'm very concer W about the fact that much g 11 of what is sitting here that ends up being validated by tf 12 everybody isn't going to be fixed until some other 13 outage down the road and that you're accepting less 4

14 than a first-class final safety analysis report and 15 license basis and information for individuals to go to i 16 publications, to go to license basis, to go to road 17 maps, to go to piping diagrams, to go to wiring l 18 diagrams and, in fact, find that this wire running in 19 this tray is, in fact, 2408B and it's 2408A. And I 20 think that that's a very, very important issue with

$ 21 regard to corrective maintenance, preventive l

. 22 maintenance and troubleshooting.

I l 23 MR. IMBRO: I agree.

24 MR. DELCORE: Well, then we should be O POST REPORTING SERVICE Hl.MDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

216 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 1 requiring them to fix every issue that is found.

2 (Applause) 3 DR. TRAVERS: No.

4 MR. IMBRO:

We're really looking at 5 that. Don.

6 MR. DELCORE: All of these.

7 DR. TRAVERS: No, no. Don, the answer 8 is we are going to require correction of every one of 9 the findings that are confirmed. The only differences 10 that you may have with the way we're approaching it is g 11 that it's going to be done commensurate with the safety r l 12 significance of the issue. And that equals the 13 potential for some relatively minor issues being '

14 carried Jut and implemented, And that's --

I 15 understand the issue. I just want to make --

16 MR. DELCORE: Dr. Travers, your opinion 17 of a significant and safety issue commensurate with '

18 safety issues has been nothing like any of us that

! 19 worked at Millstone and any of this public, you know, 20 understands. You need to work on that.

$ 21 MR. IMBRO: Yes, Ma'am?

I

. 22 MS. KAREN NORTON: My name is Karen I

( 23 Norton. I live i., 7torra, (..7ecticut. And my father 24 is an engineer. And I think that I'm not comfortable O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

l l

! 217 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1 with the idea that these safety concerns are -- will be 2 deemed okay and fixable after restart. I find that of 3 great concern.

4 I also want to reiterate what I think 5 was brushed aside, the comment that Mr. Bowman made 6 that the Northeast Utilities has great influence over

'/ what is being told by the media to the public. They're 8 basically presenting that everything is going very 9 smoothly and that the public should expect that the 10 plants are going to be coming back on line. I really

$ 11 do think it's crucial that some of the NRC concerns are t'

12 told to the public and that NU is corrected on that 13 issue that restart will be imminent as early as March 14 and April, 15 Or are you saying that restart is going 16 to happen in March and April?

17 DR TRAVERS: Well, fundamentally, let 18 me just agree with your major point. And that is the

. 19 communication of where we stand in our program. And f 20 this meeting tonight is one evample, just one, of the

! 21 program that we've implemented at Millstone. And it's I 22 g rather extraordinary. If you're not familiar with it, l 23 I can just thumbt. ail sketch it for you.

24 It includes not only these meetings but POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

_ ___ _- _ -- - - - -_- - . . _ - _ _ ~ _ _ - - - - - . . - - _ _ - . _ _ _ - -

218

() Ali AR 98 1 the conduct of our working meetings in the daytime --

2 and there are numerous meetings of that sort -- that we 3 typically for other plants across the country hold in 4 either the Regional NRC Office or in Headquarters. But 5 we're holding essentially all of them up here so that 6 people can sit in and attend and observe.

7 So I agree with you. Millstone is an 8 important issue historically. It's important to the 9 people who live around here. And we're doing, yot 10 know, what we can in terms of extraordinary effort p 11 relative to what we normally do to try to bring an U

12 understanding -- sometimes we don't do that good a job.

13 You know. I'm not that great at it occasionally, I 14 know, and sometimes we don't -- we don't communicate as 15 clearly as we could or should. But we're trying. We 16 really are.

17 And some of the concerns you've heard 18 expressed tonight are just the kinds of concerns that,

. 19 you know, we're incorporating into our assessment of f 20 where Millstone stands. We do that in meetings with O

, 21 the Commission as well. We transcribe those. We put

! 22 them right on the Internet so that people can get them g

l 23 very quickly. We put all of these preliminary 24 discrepancy reports on the Internet as soon as they're O. POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

l 219 M UAR 98 1 identified. You can go to Sargent & Lundy or 2 Parsons.com or whatever it is -- we can give you the 3 address -- and get it on the day they're issued.

4 So we --

even if we speak in some 5 acronyms at times -- and you can quis us on that. We'd 6 be glad to try and explain those. And given -- and 7 even in the face of the very complex issues that we're 8 talking about, we are trying to communicate those 9 things.

10 MS NORTON: I applaud you for that ind Q 11 I appreciate that. But on the other hand, in terms of t!

12 communication, as long as this topic got opened up, I 13 just want to say one more thing.

14 DR. TRAVERS: Sure.

15 MS. NORTON: The last time that I 16 attended this meeting I pointed out that somebody was 17 trying to say that the -- I don't know -- the level of l 18 citizen participation -- that the amount of people that 19 were here showed that not that people were interested 20 except a few -- few -- I can't remember the going --

$ 21 DR. TRAVERS: Not from us.

1

. 22 MS NORTON: -- the going term. But my I

l 23 point -- I'll finish. I'll be brief -- is that these 24 meetings are always held, I think, in Waterford and POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

220 MEETIN R I Tol4E UNITS 1 that - and that people all over the state are actually 2 concerned about this issue. And if you had meetings, 3 say, in Hartford, I think that you'd find that you 4

wouldn't be able to leave for a whole weekend.

5 DR. TRAVERS: Well, we have to be 6 practical, too. I mean we're very limited in our --

7 MS. NORTON: Well, I just wanted to make l 8 that pointi that it would be great to have a meating in 9 a more central point in the state, not that I -- I'm

( 10 not complaining about these meetings. I think we g 11 should have them and more.

12 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Could I just 13 elaborate just'a litt bit on your statement about 14 referring safety-significant issues? All safety-15 significant issues will be corrected prior to the 16 restart of the unit.

17 MS. NORTON: I want all issues to be l 18 corrected.

19 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Well, all issues 20 will not be corrected prior to restart. And that's O

. 21 Susan's question. And I want to get to that question l

g 22 tonight because it's very important that we all have a l 23 common understanding of the backlog and what's going to 24 be deferred and the basis for that.

O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

221 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O 3^"u^av 27, 1598 1 DR. TRAVERS: It's important.

2 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: It's very 3 important.

4 So we're still on ICAVP, Joe.

5 MR. JOE BESADE: Joe Besade, Waterford, 6 Connecticut. I hope this is a proper question under 7 this ICAVP, on the come-along investigations that were 8 going on at Millstone and CY.

9 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Can't talk about 10 them.

$ 11 MR. BESADE: Won't talk about them.

V 12 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Don't know about 13 them.

14 MR BESADE: Okay. I have a notebook 15 here. When was the last time any member of the 16 governing body of the NRC who makes up the rules suited 17 up in PC's and a bubble suit and went into a high 18 radiation area such as the dry well or the Unit l's 19 Hell's Kitchen to see the existing true picture?

f 20 CHAIRPERSON LANNING Ou?; region -- just 0

. 21 a Unit 1 question?

-l 22 g DR. TRAVERS: Are you talking about the

[ 23 Commissioners or --

24 MR. BESADE: Anybody from your O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

i 222

() JA!T AR 98 1 department.

2 DR. TRAVERS: Our Seniors go into 3 radiation areas frequently.

4 MR. BESADE: Your Seniors?

5 CRAIRPERSON LANNING: The Resident 6 Inspectors.

7 DR. TRAVERS: Yes.

8 MR. BESADE: Anyone been in there in a 9 bubble suit under those conditions?

10 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Yes, sir, 11 d

$ MR. BESADE: How far back?

U 12 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: You know, time --

13 years, 14 MR. BESADE: Okay. Well, recently. On 15 any of the three units, any one of the -- even the two 16 that you're not even thinking about starting up just 17 yet. Any one of them should be constantly being l 18 monitored by people in your. position to oversee these

-19 people who have been lying to us all these yaars. They f 20 have a track record of not being honorable people.

O

, 21 The other thing is I asked a question of k

g 22 Mr. Travers EP far as having -- when Chairman Jackson l 23 comes to Waterford, for her to -- if it was possible 24 for a member of the CRC to go as an observer to see O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

223 MEETING RE: MILLST0!!E UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1 what really takes place and not the propaganda pushed 2 out by these NU --

3 DR. TRAVERS: Yes. I don't have an 4 answer for you, but I ' .L 1 just speculate on the 5 practical difficulties it might -- but I will -- I owe 6 you an answer and I'll --

7 MR. BESADE: I'd uppreciate it veiy 8 much.

9 Also, as far as the transcript of this 10 evening's proceedings, I'd like a copy for myself and g 11 I'd also like a copy issued to the CRC for our s

12 documentation room.

O 13 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: We already have 14 CRC on our distribution list for this transcript of 15 these public meetings.

16 MR. BESADE: s see, And if I'm not 17 mistaken, they haven't been getting them as they should

{ 18 be. I received one. And I had another one that I was 19 promised by Mr. Travers. I haven't received that one.

20 So I -- I'd like to have one for my nuclear room. So -

f 21 - I know you tried to tell me that you were trying to 1

22 cut expenses. Well, it seems as though that I've been l 23 told that the --

you people have a budget of 24 approximately a half a billion dollars. Am I correct?

POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 s

224 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS Q JANUARY 27, 1998 1 MR. IMBRO: That's the whole agency.

2 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: That's the whole 3 NRC budget.

4 MR. BESADE- Okay. Now, you had --

5 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: I'll get you a 6 copy. I'll get you a copy.

7 MR. BESADE: Thank you. Thank you, sir.

8 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: I'll be glad to.

9 MR. BESADE: All right.

10 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: All right.

p 11 A VOICE: We'll pay for it ourselves.

V 12 MR. BESADE: Thank you.

13 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: All right. Can we 14 now move into the general question -- no? Okay.

15 A VOICE: A real very quick question.

16 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: This lady right 17 over here is next. She hasn't asked a question.

l 18 MS, GERILYN WINSLOW: Gerilyn Winslow, 19 Waterford, Connecticut. I'm concerned about the ICAVP 20 just in the numbers alone. And I guess Don's given me

$ 21 some numbers and you seem to have a little different

, 22 opinion on the numbers. But 699 DR'e validated is a I

(_ 23 lot. And we were told like me aths ago that NU was 24 going to do such a good job fixing the plant up before POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i

l l

k

225 MEETING RE: MILLSTGNE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 1 anybody even inspected 1*., that they probably wouldn't 2 find anything wrong. And now they've found up to 700 3 just in those four systems.

4 I'm concerned about that and I'd like to 5 see the scope expanded because I'm very concerned.

6 I've done some math and we've got like 15.000 possible 7 discrepancies in the other 84 systems. That's a lot.

8 And my children go to school across the street from the 9 plant, right across the street. And I'm not 10 comfortable with those numbers, p 11 MR. IMBRO: I mean I can -- I certainly U

12 can understand where you're coming from. But I think 13 you have to wait, though, until the process gets 14 corpleted. We're going to look at -- right now, you're 15 right. The 699 number I think came from a January 13 36 report --

17 MS, WINSLOW: Yes.

l 18 MR. IMBRO: -- from Sargent & Lundy.

19 MS. WINSLOW: Yes.

20 MR. IMLRO: There are more now. Okay?

$ 21 I mean, as I said -- but you have to think u.a t -- of 1

- 22 all those 975 or however many there are, only 100-and -

E l -

I forget what it said -- 120 have gone through the 24 process. And of the 120, only -- only 54 issues have -

O#

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226

(} Jali R 8 1 - are issues that were not previously identified by NU 2 or , quote, real issues. But, again, looking at -- if 3 you look at those, there's really one non-conformance 4 out of those 54 with the licensing basis.

5 MS. WINSLOW: I have 224 --

6 MR. IMBRO: But, again --

7 MS. WINSLOW: --

outside of the design 8 basis.

9 MR. IMBRO: I guess we haven't explained i

10 it properly. But look at the validated DR'e.

g 11 Validated Dx's, again, are things that have gone U

12 through the S&L precess but have not been yet responded 13 to by NU. The 224 which -- refers to what category?

14 MS. WINSLOW: Level 3. Level 3.

15 MR. IMBRO: Again, like I say --

16 MS. WINSLOW: Does not meet licensing 17 and design basis --

l 18 MR. IMBRO: Yes.

19 MS, WINSLOW: --

but is intended to 20 perform --

$ 21 MR. IMBRO: Yes. Yes. But, again, i i

- 22 those are preliminary. Those have to be responded by t

I l 23 NU.

24 MS. WINSLOW: Well, I want ther,all --

POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

227

() A R 98 1 well, what about --

I have a concern then because 2 they're going to go into Mode 4 next week and start the 3 plant up. And now none of these have even been 4 validated make any yet. That doesn't sense. That 5 plant is going to be turned to the On switch next week.

6 MR. IMBRO: Well, Mode 4 --

7 MS. WINSLOW: And these DR's haven't 8 even been validated --

9 MR. IMBRO: Mode 4 is not thE On switch.

10 MS, WINSLOW: -- yet.

'g 11 MR. IMBRO: And if thert are issues U

12 there that --

13 MS. WINSLsW: Once it's on, they're not 14 going to turn it off.

15 MR. IMBRO: Mode 4 is not On. Mode 4 is 16 --

17 MS, WINSLOW: It's heated up to 200 l 18 degrees.

19 MR. IMBRO: Yes, 200. Okay. But it's 20 not -- but,-you know, it's not critical. Again, it's--

O

, 21 MS. WINSLOW: When you live a mile away, 1

. 22 on is on and 200 degrees is on.

5 l 23 A VOICE: CY wasn't critical when they 24 had the nitrogen (indiscernible - not at microphone).

POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 1

228 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS g JANUARY 27, 1998 1 MS. WII! SLOW: Yes. Just my point is 2 they should upand the scope. Okay?

3 MR. IMBRO: I understand. I understand.

4 MS, WINSLOW: Rather than go through all 5 this number thing back and forth.

6 MR. IMBRO: I understand it's an area of 7 concern.

8 MS. WINSLOW: The scope should be --

9 tnere's 84 systems that might have 700 things wrong 10 with each one of them. That's my opinion.

Q 11 Thank you.

9 12 MR. IMBRO: I understand what you're 13 saying.

14 A VOICE: It sounds like it's open to 15 me.

16 MR. IMBRO: Rosemary?

17 MS. BASSILAKIS: Rosemary Bassilakis l 18 again. I just want to say that you keep saying that 19 these are preliminary. We need to wait, we need to f 20 wait, we need to wait.

$ 21 You need to understand that we're a l 22

. community that's been asleep for a long time and we 5

l 23 have been rocked awake. And we'r- . going to wait.

24 We're going to speak --

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229

(]) Al RY 9 8 1 MR. IMBRO: I never thought you were 2 anleep. You're right on the ball.

3 MS. BASSILAKIS: We're going to speak as 4 soon as we think there may be an issue because we're 5 not going to wait until the end.

6 MR. IMBRO: Good.

7 MS, BASSILAKIS: Because in the end, you 8 may decide that everything in hunky dory and they can 9 turn the switch on. And at that point, our cries of 10 increasing the scope will fall on deaf ears. So we 0 11 need to be vocal and we need to be hard now, 12 MR. IMBRO: We're not I'm not 13 c'aggesting you not comment. Please.

14 MS, BASSILAKIS: .How many times did I 15 hear the word " preliminary" tonight?

16 MR. IMBRO: But they are preliminary, 17 DR. TRAVERS: They are.

l l 18 MS, BASSILAKIS: I know. But you n ,d -

19 -

but you're also saying that we need to wait, f 20 MR. IMBRO: Well, we need to wait until o

, 21 the process --

1

22 MS. BASSILAKIS
And we need to let you l 23 know that we're not comfortable with that.

24 MR. IMBRO: Okay, I understand that.

O' POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

230

() Ali R 2 98 1 MS. BASSILAKIS: So are you going to 2 increase the scope?

3 MR. IMBRO: Based on what we know now, 4 no. But with, you know --

there's still more 5 evaluation that needs to be done.

6 MS, BASSILAKIS: Okay 7 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Susan?

8 MR. IMBRO: Let To.a come up. He's been 9 waiting a while.

10 MR. McCORMACK: This is quick. Again,

g 11 we had this DPUC business about Millstone being in the

! 0 12 rate base and us ratepayers are paying at least 25 13 million d 11ars a month in excess of replacement power 14 costs. It's very crucial.

15 In the DPUC document, it says the ICAVP 16 program would be finished by January 15. Is it?

17 MR. IMBRO: No.

18 MR. McCORMACK: Any expectation of when

! 19 this program will be wrapped up between Sargent & Lundy

-f 20 and NU and the verifications, the preliminaries and a G

, 21 Sargent & Lundy report? Any estimated date for Sargent I 22 g & Lundy's report?

l 23 MR. IMBRO: Oh, gosh. I'd say some time 24 in the end of February.

O' POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i

\1

231 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1 MR. McCORMACK: End of February. Okay.

2 Sc at least --

3 MR. IMBRO: That would be my guess.

4 MR. McCORMACK: So at least six weeks 5 past the date here. Okay. Thanks.

6 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Okay 7 MR. IMBRO: Other questions?

8 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Susan. This is 9 the good one, though. This is a good one. I'm excited 10 about this one.

$ 11 MS. PERRY LUXTON: God, this is U

12 ridiculous, isn't it?

13 Let's see. A question I have is --

14 okay. Now, I want to talk about reasonable assurance.

-15 My understanding of the regulatory structure is based 16 on the fact that NU follows rules and procedures.

17 Right? This is the process question of ICAVP.

I 18 MR. IMBRO: Okay.

19 MS. PERRY LUXTON: So NU follows rules 20 and procedures. And you have to -- because you can't O

, 21 be everywhere and you can't do 100 percent of the b

= 22 systems, you're only going to do a certain amount of I

l 23 the systems. So you are trusting this process with 24 '

Joent & Lundy and NU agreeing to the -- now there's a O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

232 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS ggg JANUARY 27, 1998 1 word you used. Not validated. But when NU agrees to -

2 - when they negotiate --

3 MR. IMBRO: Confir. DR.

4 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Yes. They confirm 5 the DR. Okay. Well, my question is if you have this 6 many deficiencies in these 50 or but maybe 15 systems, 7 whatever you say, what I need for you to -- if we're 8 assuming that you have a similarly aggressive review of 9 other systems, wouldn't you find at least as many 10 problems as you found in the four systems or, you know, g 11 with the boundary 15?

U 12 But my question is how can you assume 13 they're not --

wait a minute. I wrote it down.

14 Wouldn't you find at least as many problems? And how 15 can the NRC say that those problems would not be 16 safety-significant? Because if you found as many 17 problems wrong in those systems as you are in these,

{ 18 you can't assume --

you can't tell us, you can't 19 reasonably assure that they wouldn't be safety-20 significant, even those may be mostly majority 4, of a 21 4. The others may not.

k. 22 MR. IMBRO: Well, again, you know, if 5

l 23 there are --

24 MS. PERRY LUXTON: You can't --

POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

233

() JAlf RY 2 98 1 MR. IMBRO: -- Level 4 problems and they 2 seem to indicate a trend, then we're going to ask NU to 3 expand the scope in some areas.

4 MS, PERRY LUXTON: I know that. But 5 that's not what I'm asking, though, Gene. I'm saying 6 you can't assure me reasonably --

7 MR. IMBRO: I can't assure you of 100 8 percent unless I look at everything. And even then, 9 I'm not sure that I couldn't miss something. So 10 there's no way -- if you want 100-percent assurance --

$ 11 DR. TRAVERS: But if I could jutt chime U

12 in for ' moment? In the absence -- take the sample 13 systems that we've looked at, 15.

14 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Right.

15 DR. TRAVERS: In the absence of 16 identified s!gnificant findings in those systems, even 17 if you find a lot of minor calculational errors and so l 18 on and so forth, rather than projected in the fashion

. 19 you've just done --

20 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Right.

C

. 21 MR. IMBRO: --

the findings that we're k

= 22 seeing thus far would have you reach just the opposite 5

l 23 conclusion in that we looked very, very thoroughly at 24 those systems that we've looked at and we didn't find O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN. CT (800) 262-4102 l

l

234

() A R 8 1 significant issues. We didn't. And despite the fact 2 that you're finding --

3 MC. PERRY LUXTON: But you can't say to 4 me that you wculdn't in those other systems, though, ,

5 Dr. Travers.

6 DR. TRAVERS: No. But --

7 MS, PERRY LUXTON: In these, you didn't.

8 DR. TRAVERS: No, no. I agree. I'm not 9 saying --

10 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Right? I mean just--

g 11 DR. TRAVERS: I'm not saying you U

12 couldn't possibly. What I'm saying is that based on 13 what we always do in our sample reviews -- and this is l

14 an extraordinary sample. It's a very large sample for

, what we would normally do to confirm this kind of 16 issue.

17 MS, PERRY LUXTON: Mm-hmm.

l 18 DR. TRAVERS: Based on a very --

it's 19 not 100 percent, but it's a very -- we view it as a 20 very extensive effort. It's costing millions and 0

, 21 millions. It's involving, what, a hundred or so people 1

= 22 at Sargent & Lundy --

5 l 23 MR. IMBRO: Yes.

24 DR. TRAVERS: --

doing, you know,

(~

\> POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

235 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

() JANUARY 27, 1998 1 detailed, detailed reviews. We're looking to, in the 2 way we developed the program, say that even though 3 we're only looking at samples, we're going to look at 4 them so thoroughly that it's going to give us a sense 5 of whether there's sign .'icant issues elsewhere. If we 6 started to identify even a few Level l's or Level 2's, 7 you know, this is the indication that you might need to 8 and, in fact, should look elsewhere.

9 MS. PERRY LUXTON: But the point --

10 okay. Well, this is -- another thing is the process

$ 11 that you guys have set up from the very beginning is y

{} 12 even if you find l's and 2's, you give NU the ability 13 to pencil away the l's and 2's.

14 DR. TRAVERS: No , no, no.

15 MS. PERRY LUXTON: They just d' that 16 with the CR that they supposedly didn't know about.

17 You guys came out --

remember? -- and said thac they l 18 hadn't found it. You found it. Then, all cf a sudden, 6

f 19 two weeks later we read in the paper they said they did 20 find it but they couldn't remember that they found it.

o

. 21 But they did find it. You know? Now, all of c sudden, b

-22 that was a Level 1. But now suddenly it's not g

l 23 anything. It's a level low, low level, because they 24 did find it but they can't remember that they found it.

O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

. _J

236 MEETIN RE I TO1E UNITS 1 But now they did find it.

2 That makes it sound like very strange to 3 us in the public. It sounds like NU doing their own 4 business that they used to do. How could they have not 5 known they wrote a CR on the thing? Then they still 6 haven't fixed the CR. They still haven't even done 7 anything to correct it. I mean it really Emells, I 8 think. Doesn't it? Kind of?

9 All right. Let's go on to the next 10 thing. What wao my original question that you wouldn't

$ 11 let me ask? I forgot, for crying out loud.

32 A VOICE: It's time to go home, gang.

13 MS, PERRY LUXTON: What was it? _ What 14 was that question? I mean I was serious about that. I 15 have no idea what it was, 16 CHAIRPERSON LALNING: We were talking --

17 you had the corrective action --

l 18 MS. PERRY LUETON: Right. The wheel.

19 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: -- wheel with all 20 the spokes.

O

, 21 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Yes?

b 22 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: And you were

_l 23 asking about enforcement.

24 MS, PERRY LUXTON: Enforcement. Right.

O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 m __

237 lll JAT R 98 1 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: All of those 2 issues around the spoke of that wheel are things that 3 are -- will be considered for evaluating how well the 4 corrective action process is working.

5 MS, PERRY LUXTON: Right.

6 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Now, the whole 7 objective here is to evaluate the process and see that ,

8 it is working effectively to identify and resolve ,

9 deficiencies. Okay. That's the whole --

10 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Don't say

$ 11 deficiencies. You mean like -- deficiencies not in his U

g 12 deficiency category.

13 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Not his 14 deficiency. Yes.

15 MS. PERRY LUXTON: You mean, you know, 16 problems.

17 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: That's a good l 18 point.

7 19 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Yes. Don't use that 20 terminology. Like problems.

$ 21 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Prob' ems.

I g 22 Problems. Okay?

3 l 23 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Problems, yes.

24 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: For example, I O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

238 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS O 3^"u^av 27 1998 1 want to illustrate the point. We requested NU to 2 provide us in a 50 54f letter, Eemand for Information 3 letter, two lists. One list was the restart list.

4 MS, PERRY LUXTON: Right.

5 CRAIPPERSON LANNING: And the second 6 list is the deferred list --

7 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Right. Okay.

8 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: of their 9 process. And -- and the process for putting a problem 10 on one or the other list. Okay?

P 11 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Mm-hmm, b

12 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Now, we have been

.\

13 inspecting the deferred list. We've looked at each of l 14 those items on that deferred list to check to ensure 15 that it is not safety-significant and to ensure that it 16 should not be or the restart list.

17 Now, the first review we did, we found l 18 some of those items and they were moved over.

19 MS. PERRY LUXTON
Moved c /er to where?

f 20 Deferred?

21 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: No. To the 3

22 restart list.

l 23 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay.

24 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Okay? Now, just O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

~

t 9

239 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS JANUARY 27, 1998 1 this month, on the 9th I think it is, they submitted to 2 us another list, an updated list of things that's going 3 to be deferred.

4 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay.

5 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Okay?

6 MS. PERRY LUXTON: The 9th of January?

7 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Yes.

8 MS. PERRY LUXTON: January 9.

9 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: And I think that 10 number as it stood on the 9th is clmost 5,000 items.

R. 11 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Oh.

I%~

! 12 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: So that's why this l

O 13 is important for us to understand --

14 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Oh, my God, i

15 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: --

what that 16 means.

17 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Yes. That's right.

l 18 Because before it was --

I thought it was 3,000 items 19 at the -- 5,000 are going to be deferred?

20 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: That is the O

21 proposal and --

22 MS, PERRY LUXTON: And you have to --

1 l 23 they have to run that by you?

24 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Right. And we're POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 I

240 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS

{} JANUARY 27, 1998 .s 1 looking at that list. Yes. Yes. And we're also 2 looking at the process they're using to put it on the 3 list, as I've already said. Okay?

4 So if start-up occurred today -- I said 5 if, a big if --

6 MS. PERRY LUXTON: All right.

7 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: -- it's possible 8 that there would be 5,000 items that would need to be -

1 9 - that oill be fixed at some future date.

10 MS, PERRY LUXTON: L 1ht. But who g 11 assures us that you make sure that taey get them fixed?

U 12 Because that has been a problem with you in the past.

13 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: You do. You do.

14 Right here.

15 MS, PERRY LUXTON: Oh, my God.

16 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: And you read our 17 Inspection Reports. W- tell you what we do, what we 18 found and so forth. But --

i I

. 19 MS. PERRY LUXTON: But how -- do we have 20 a list of those 5,000 items? How do we know --

$ 21 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Yes.

1

. 22 MS. PERRY LUXTON: You haven't given us 5

l 23 a list.

24 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: They're in the f

\- POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

241

( AIkRY 8 1 Waterford Library. And, you know, it's a stack of 2 paper that high. 3 MS, PERRY LUXTON: Oh, my gosh. That's 4 going to take an enormous amount of work to keep an eye 5 on you guys. 6 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Well, it takes an 7 enormouc amount of work for us to review those deferred 8 lists to ensure there'n nothing safety-significant in 9 there that's going to be deferred. Okay? 10 MS, PERRY LUXTON: All right, p 11 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Now, that list -- 0 12 MS. PERRY LUXTON: That's a new -- 13 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: -- will continue 14 to grow maybe before restart ever occurs. Okay? 15 MS, PERRY LUXTON: I don't know if 16 that's acceptable to the public. 17 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Well, I'll -- l 18 that's the reason it's important that we have this 19 conversation. 20 MS, PERRY LUXTON: I know it. It's too $ 21 bad it's at 12:00 at night and nobody's here. 1 . 22 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: And we understand. E l 23 Well, maybe next time -- 24 MS. PERRY LUXTON: We might want to talk O I-OST REPORTING SERVICS HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i

242 MEETIN RE I TOliE UNITS 1 about that again next time. 2 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: -- we should start 3 off with -- 4 MS. PERRY LUXTON: I think so. 5 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: -- the corrective 6 action process and start talking about the backlog and 7 -- 8 MS, PERRY LUXTON: And then you can talk 9 about the new spoke wheel that you said it's going to 10 be a new restart -- P 11 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Restart Assessment e U 12 Plan. 13 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Restart Assessment 14 Plan. We should talk about that, too, at the next one. 15 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Yes. Well, we're 16 just -- what that is is an update of the seal items,

17. the stuff we've been inspecting all along.

[ 18 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Right. Right, 19 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: So we've been 20 closing some of those. We're doing our inspections. $ 21 MS. PERRY LUXTON: So that would be i, 22 appropriate to talk about that at the next meeting. 5 l 23 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: It certainly 24 would. O POST REPORTING SER7 ICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

243 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS (]) JANUARY 27, 1998 1 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Right. 2 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: But we're going te 3 have it available for you beforehand in the library -- 4 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Okay. 5 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: if you'd like 6 to get a copy of that. 7 MS. PERRY LUXTON: All right. Okay. ' 8 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Okay? Does that 9 help? 10 MS PERRY LUXTON: Yes, That's -- lg 11 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Good. 'N 12 MS, PERRY LUXTON: That's very helpful. 13 Disconcertioq, but helpful. 14 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: I understand. I 15 can appreciate that. 16 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Yes. Okay. 17 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: All right. l 18 MS. PERRY LUXTON: Thank you. 19 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Any other 20 questions?

   $   21                                                                                                 MS. PERRY LUXTON:       Not that I can think 1
   . 22    of right now, except where's my pillow?                                                                                          You know?

E l 23 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Does anyone else 24 have any questions? POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

244 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () JANUARY 27, 1998 1 MS. NORTON: Wnen is the next public 2 hearing? 3 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: I'm sorry? 4 MS. PERRY LUXTON: When is the next 5 public meeting? 6 MS. NORTON: What is the next public 7 hearing, meeting? 8 DR. TRAVERS: The next there are a 9 host of meetings upcoming. But the next meeting with 10 the Commission, for example, is February the 19th, g 11 10:00, I think. I think it's in the morning. U 12 A VOICE: 9:00. t 13 DR. TRAVERS: 9:00? 14 A VOICE: I think it's 9:00, 15 DR. TRAVERS: February 19 in Rockville, 16 Maryland. And, of course, we will -- we haven't yet 17 scheduled our next evening meeting. But we'll do that 18 shortly. 4 19 A VOICE: I just would add that the 20 Chairman is going to be here on the 2nd of February.

 $    21                  CHAIRPERSON      LANNING:        I'm    punchy, b
 =    22 Right. The 2nd of February.

I l 23 DR. TRAVERS: And there's going to be a 24 public question-and-answer session, I think, at 7:00, O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 j

a M 245 MEETIln RE: MILLSTONE UNITS () JANUARY 27, 1998 1 something like that. l l 2 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: 7:00 at the high 3 school auditorium. 4 Okay. Last question of the evening -- 5 or the morning, First of the morning. 6 MR. NAZAR: The question I have goes 7 directly to what Gene was just talking about, And my 8 question is given that Commissioner, the head of the I 9 Commission is coming, what is going to be, if you know 10 now, the general format of the public meeting? Is she _g 11 expecting just general questions? Is this going to be u 12 more like a Congressional hearing where one_ just 13 presents, you know, typed papers, et cetera? 14 DR. TRAVERS: About an hour, hour and a 15 half, But she's going to -- my understanding is that 16 she's going to start off with a brief statement, And 17 we have -- she has solicited -- I think we've done it { 18 for her -- questions from several groups in advance of

  . 19 this.       The Citizens Regulatory Commission, for example, f   20 NEAC.                The Friends                                of   Millstone         and CAN,      Citizens o
  . 21 Awareness Network.                                            Were   solicited -- if they wouldn't 1
  -   22 mind -- and they have                                            provided us with three questions E

l_ 23 for the Chairman. And she's expected to start off 24 early in the meeting with addressing some of those or O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102 i

246 MEETING RE: MILLSTONE UNITS (])- JANU%RY 27, 1998 1 all of those questions. Following that, the expectation is that she will respond to questions from the audience. 4 MR. NAZAR: Do you know if there's any 5 structure or organization that's going to be put on the 6 meeting to avoid this becoming an argument about the -- 7 either the economic viability of nuclear power- or 8 desirability of nuclear power or whether radiation has 9 any finite limit, lower limit at which you don't see 10 effects any more, et cetera, et cetera? Which are g 11 valid issues, but that's peripheral to the issue of W 12 whether Millstone is ready to restart. 13 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: Well, if you've 14 seen the Chairman in public forums before -- 15 MR. NAZAR: Never met her,

l. 16 CHAIRPERSON LANNING: --

she's very 17 effective at keeping questions on track to the subject 18 at hand. So I think it's important to her that you're 4 19 from the public and she'll try to respond to the public 20 on Millstone.

  $     21                  Okay.              That's it?                       Good night        to all.
                                                                                                          ]

b

  =     22 Thank you for coming.

5 l 23 (Whereupon, the meeting was adjourned at 24 12:12 A.M.) O POST REPORTING SERVICE HAMDEN, CT (800) 262-4102

CERTIFICATE O I, Paul Landman, a Notary Public in and for the State of Connecticut, and President of Post Reporting Service, Inc., do hereby certify that, to the best of my knowledge, the foregoing record is a correct and verbatim transcription of the audio recording made of the proceeding hereinbefore set forth. I further certify that neither the audio operator nor I are attorney or counsel for, nor directly related to or employed by any of the parties to the action and/or proceeding in which this action is taken; and further, that neither g the audio operator nor I are a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel d (' employed by the parties thereto, or financially interested in any way in the outcome of this action or proceeding. In witness whereof I have hereunto set my hand and do so attest to the above. this 11 thday of Feb. ,19 9a l On A -

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