ML20132E673
| ML20132E673 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Limerick  |
| Issue date: | 07/15/1985 |
| From: | Atomic Safety and Licensing Board Panel |
| To: | |
| References | |
| CON-#385-932 OL, NUDOCS 8507180038 | |
| Download: ML20132E673 (139) | |
Text
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UN11ED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION IN THE MATTER OF: DOCKET NO:
PHILADELPHIA ELECTRIC COMPANY 50-352 (LIMERICK GENERATIllG STATION) 50-353 LOCATION: PHILADELPHIA, PA PAGES: 20,748 - 20,885 DATE: MONDAY, JULY 15, 1985 f AI 9 1 N
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O ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
Official Recrters 444 North Capitol Street Washington, D.C. 20001 8507j00039 (DR ADocx $$8 Q2 (202) 347-3700 NATIONWIDE COVERACE
Jo:, Wal 20,748 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA l NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION I 2
BEFORE THE ATOMIC SAFETY AND LICENSING BOARD 3
4 --- - ---- ----
X 5 In the Matter of: :
- Docket Nos. 50-352-OL 6 PHILADELPHIA ELECTRIC COMPANY : 50-353-OL 7 (Limerick Generating Station, :
Units 1 & 2.) :
8 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -X 9 l 10 Old Custams Courtroom l Room 300 l 11 2nd & Chestnut j Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 12
~
Monday, July 15, 1985
, ) 13 1 14 .
The hearing in the above-entitled matter convened, l 15 !
pursuant to recess, at 1:30 p.m.
16 BEFORE:
17 HELEN F. HOYT, ESO., Chairperson i 18 Atomic Safety and Licensing Board I Nuclear Regulatory Commission 19 Washington, D. C. 20555 1
20 RICHARD F. COLE, Member l Atomic Safety and Licensing Board i 21 Nuclear Regulatory Commission Washington, D. C. 20555 22 JERRY HARBOUR, Member 23 Atomic Safety and Licensing Board Nuclear Regulatory Commission 24 Washington, C. C. 20555 eral Reporters, Inc.
25
Joe Wai 20,749
(~') 1 APPEARANCES:
\s 2 (As heretofore noted.)
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 l
11 l
l 12 13 14 15 16 !
17 l l
18 l.
19 20 l
21 22 23 ,
24 era neporters, inc.
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20,750 1
C O N_ T_ E N_ T S gim 1-1 BOARD 2 REDIRECT RECROSSS EXAM WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS 3
Charles Zimmerman 4 By Mr. Otto 20,760 By Mr. Love 20,765 5 By Mr. Hassell 20,837 By Mr. Conner 20,844 6 By Mr. Otto 20,845 By Judge Cole 20,849 7 By Judge Harbour 20.851 By Mr. Otto 20,852 8
Donald F. Taylor 9 By Ms. Forkin 20,854 By Mr. Conner 20,857 10 By Mr. Love 20,857 By Mr. Hassell 20,868 II By Ms. Forkin 20,870 By Mr. Conner 20,872 12 By Mr. Love 20,873 By Judge Cole 20,877 13 By Judge Harbour 20,878 LAY-IN DOCUMENTS FOLLOWS PAGE 14 Testimony of Charles H. Zimmerman together with described attachments .......... 20,763 15 Testimony of Donald F. Taylor 16 on Graterford Inmates Regarding Training of Civilian Response 17 Personnel .................................... 20,856 18 EXEIE1Tg 19 EXHIBIT NO. IDENTIFIED RECEIVED 20 Graterford Inmates No.
2 20,785
" " 20,786 21 3 22 Applicant's Exhibit No. 20,797 23 Graterford Inmates No. 4 20,826
" 5 20,848 24 Ah.r:I Reporters. Inc.
25
20,751
- 1(~ 'SueWalsh 1 PROCEEDINGS 2 (1:30 p.m.)
3 JUDGE HOYT: Very well. It's exactly 1:30. The 4 hearing will come to order. The Board begins today its 5 formal hearing into the contention and the two bases of 6 the contention admitted for litigation by this Board in its 7 Order of June 12, 1985.
8 That already admitted a contention of the Inmates t
9 of the State correctional Institutation at Graterford and has 10 admitted the contention, and the bases reads as follows: !
II "There is no..." correction. Let me state that this is the i
12 text of the contention.
'_ 13 "There is no reasonable assurance that the radiolo ,
14 gical emergency response plans for the State Correctional 15 Institute at Graterford will protect the inmates at said 16 institution in the event of a nuclear emergency at the Lime-17 rick Generation Station.
I 18
" Basis C - Training. There is no reasonable !
39 assurance that emergency response training will be offered to 20 civilian personnel who will be involved in the emergency 21 response plans, such as civilian bus and ambulance drivers. f 22 "The inmates contend that emergency response train-23 ing be offered to civilian personnel who will be assisting 24 the Bureau of Corrections, the state police, and the see neporters, Inc.
25 National Guard in the appropriate response to an accident at
20,752
- -SueWalsh) Limerick Generating Station. Pursuant to further discussions, 2 held during the closed conference in Harrisburg, the Common-3 wealth of Pennsylvania has attempted to address the in-4 mates' concern by the offering of said emergency response 5 training to civilian bus drivers. The method by which the 6 Commonwealth has suggested to achieve this purpose is a 7 letter to all bus providers which is attached to the 8 Commonwealth's ' Answer of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania to 9 Proposed Contentions of the Graterford Inmates with Regard 10 to the Evacuation Plan,' dated April 4, 1985 as Exhibit B.
I 11 This letter, addressed to the employers of the bus drivers, I 12 offers a two hour course explaining the propoer use of dosi-(7j 13 metry by the Pennsylvania Emergency Management Agency. The 14 inmates find this letter inadequate in several respects.
15 Initially, there is no guarantee that the employees will ever 16 receive any notice of the opportunity to avail themselves of 17 this training program. Furthe rmore, the training envisioned 18 by the inmates was a broader, more comprehensive program, such 19 as the training offered to the school bus drivers. See the 20 Third Partial Initial Decision on Offsite Emergency Planning 21 by the Licensing Board, Section 333, Page 155, which reads, 22 'The training program for bus drivers offers a general 23 orientation and overview of radiation principles, emergency 24 management principles, susceptibility of children to radiation w.i n.no,t.... inc.
25 and additional background information. ' The inmates contend
20,753 that the two hour course offered by PEMA is not as comprehen-OljggSueWalsh1 2 sive as the one offered to the bus drivers of school children 3 and is therefore inadequate in this respect.
4 " Basis E - Estimated Time of Evacuation. There 5 is no reasonable assurance that the estimated time of evacua-6 tion of six to ten hours can be achieved.
7 " Appendix 4 of NUREG-0654 provides details regard-8 ing evacuation time estimates within the plume exposure 9 pathway. II.C. Special Facility Populations states, 'An 10 estimate for this special population group shall usually be 11 done on an institution by institution basis. The means of 12 transportation are also highly individualized and shall be
) 13 described.' Section IV.B. of Appendix 4 entitled Methodology 14 states, 'The method for computing total evacuation time shall 15 be specified. Two approaches are acceptable. The simplest 16 approach is to assume that events are sequential. That is i 17 to say, for example, that no one begins to move until all 18 persons are warned and prepared to leave before anyone starts 39 moving. The time is estimated by simply adding the maximum 20 time for each component. This approach tends to overestimate 21 the evacuation time. The second approach, which is more 22 compicx and will be discussed further, is to combine the 23 distribution functions for the various evacuation time 24 components. This second approach may result in reduced time w n port..., inc.
25 estimates due to a more realistic assumption.' The inmates
20,754
- 1<'7 SueWalsh I contend that the failure to specifically address this m
2 estimated time of evacuation in the plan and the mere mention 3 in a footnote of the Applicant's request for an exemption 4 fails to meet the criteria as suggested by Appendix 4. The 5 inmates are concerned that the six to ten hour estimate does 6 not include a breakdown of the various sequential events as 7 prescribed in NUREG-0654, Appendix 4.IV.B. necessary to 8 accomplish the task. The inmates contend that such a break-9 dawn is necessary. "
10 Let me emphasize again to the parties and to those f
I 11 in attendance at this hearing, these are the issues that j 12 will be litigated and are the only issues that will be liti-
/m ;
/ 13 gated in this hearing. !
14 On June 17th, 1985 the Board began its prepara-15 tions for these hearings that begin today by conducting a 16 telephone conference call with the parties to determine a I
I 17 schedule for this hearing which would be fair to the parties 18 at interest. A verbatim transcript of this call has been 19 made a part of the public record and is available in the i l
20 public record if anyone wishes to view it. l 21 The parties in the conference call agreed to the 1
22 following: One, discovery was to begin immediately and was 23 arranged for among the parties. Two, the Board ordered all 24 profiled testimony to be filed with the parties by July 8th,
, e n. pori.e., Inc.
25 1985.
20,755
- 1/ SueWalsh 1 Let me stray from that for a moment to explain the 2 use of the term prefiled testimony. In lieu of calling a 3 witness and having the witness testify on the direct, the 4 rules of this Commission is -- and indeed in many other 5 administrative bodies, as well as some Article 3 courts --
6 to permit prefiled testimony. And when the witness takes the 7 stand, they are then cross-examined by the opposing parties.
8 Continuing to what was agreed to in the conference i
9 call, I did go ahead to explain the prefiled testimony and j i
10 that simply means that the direct testimony of a witness is l 11 g iven to the Board and opposing counsel and the witness is l i
12 made available at the hearing for cross-examination, which cy 13 counsel has prepared for in advance of the hearing. f 14 It is a usual procedure, I would like to emphasize, 15 and it's done to shorten the hearing time while af fording !
16 counsel full cross-examination rights. t i
17 The sponsoring party of the witness is, of course, l 18 permitted a redirect examination based upon those matters !
19 raised ori cross-examination. There will be, therefore, no 20 oral direct testimony heard here today or indeed we do not l 71 anticipate any oral direct testimony at this hearing. l 22 The third point discussed in the conference call 23 which was ordered, that the parties should be prepared for ;
I 24 oral arguments instead of post-hearing written briefs we n.nonm inc.
25 customarily used, sometimes used in addition to oral arguments
l 20,756
- -SueWalsh; or in lieu of oral arguments.
2 In rder to permit counsel ample time to prepare 3 their oral presentation, the Board has instructed the parties 4
that an appropriate period of time at the conclusion of the 5
testimony will be permitted for their review and/or prepara-tion. This period of time will not, however, exceed twenty-6 four hours.
7 8
In a letter to the members of this Board served 9
on the parties by the NRC staff, we were advised on July 2, l l
10 1985 that the parties on July 1, 1985 had established the j i
t t
ii following order of witnesses for this hearing. And the Board 12 finds this an acceptable order of witnesses. Mr. Zimmerman
) 13 of the State Correctional Institution at Graterford, for i ja the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania; Mr. Donald F. Taylor, also 15 for the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania; Mr. John D. Case, for 16 the Graterford Inmates; Mr. Edward Lieberman -- and I spell l 37 the name, L-i-o-b-e-r-m-a-n -- o f the Federal Emergency 18 Management Agency; Dr. Thomas Urbanik, U-r-b-a-n-i-k, for 19 the NRC staff; Mr. James Asher and Mr. Kanad for the Federal 20 Emergency Management Agency will be the last witness.
21 The only witness not filing profiled testimony 22 in this group of witnesses has been the NRC staf f witness, 23 and this request was by the staff to not file pre-testimony 24 for their witness. And it was agreed to by the Board, since A s, .i nepo,t.e., enc.
25 the witness could not be expected to give an expert opinion
20,757
- 1 A SueWalsh 1 on the evacuation time estimate testimony until it was filed V
2 on July 8th by the parties proferring such testimony.
END #1 3 Simons f1ws a 4 I 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 memorises, Inc.
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20,758 i
Sim 2-1 i The doctor will be testifying, therefore, in the O 2 nature of a rebuttal witness.
3 We have no additional statements to make at this 4 time. If the parties are ready, I will ask first to have 5 the appearances entered on the record for this hearing.
6 Mr. Conner, would you like to start with the 7 applicant?
g MR. CONNER: If the Board please, my name is 9 Troy B. Conner, Jr. With me is Robert M. Radar and Niles 10 N. Nichols of our firm of Conner and Wetterhahn. Our formal 11 appearance has already been entered on the record.
12 JUDGE HOYT: Thank you, Mr. Conner, and welcome,
'S 13 gentlemen.
s 14 Mr. Hassell for the Nuclear Regualtory Commission 15 Staff.
16 MR. HASSELL: My name is Mr. Hassell, counsel for 17 NRC Staff. My formal appearance has been entered in the 18 record.
19 MS. WRIGHT: My name is Nathine Wright. My 20 formal appearance has been entered for the NRC Staff into the 21 record.
22 JUDGE HOYT: Thank you.
23 MR. IIIRScil: My name is Mike Hirsch. I am here 24 representing the Federal Emergency Management Agency.
A eral Reporters, Inc.
25 JUDGE !!OYT: Thank you.
t -- _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ . - - - - - - - - - - - - - - _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ - .
t j 20,759 l Sim 2-2. I Mr. Love.
l (
2 MR. LOVE: My name is Angus Love, and I am here 3 representing the intervenors, the Graterford Inmates.
t l 4 MS. FERKIN: My name is Zori Forkin. With me 5 today is Mr. Theodore Otto and also with me today is 6 Mr. Ralph Ilippert, and we are representing the Commonwealth l
7 of Pennsylvania in this proceeding. Mr. Otto's and my.
8 formal appearances have already boon entered on this record.
9 JUDGE HOYT: Thank you, ladios and gentlemen for 10 those acknowledgements of your presence here.
11 Are you ready to call the first witness, Ms.
12 Forkin?
() MS. FERKIN: Yes, Your Honor.
14 At this timo the Commonwealth calls Mr. Charlos 15 Zimmerman.
16 JUDGE !!OYT: While Mr. Zimmerman is coming forward 17 to be sworn, are there any proliminary matters that need to 18 be raised at this timo?
19 MR. LOVE: Your !!onor, may I take it that my 20 request to make an opening statomont has boon denied?
21 JUDGE !!OYT: No. You haven't opened your caso, 22 Mr. Lovo.
23 MR. LOVE: Oh, fino.
24 h,d n. pore.ri, Inc. JUDGE !!OYT: It is still under advisomont.
25 Whorcupon,
20,760
.Sim 2-3 SUPERINTENDENT ~. CHARLES _ H . ZIMMERMAN I
-hs- was all d as a witness on behalf of the Commonwealth and, 2
3 having been first duly sworn by Judge Hoyt, was examined and 4 testfied as follows:
JUDGE HOYT: Thank you, sir. Be seated.
5 6
Mr. Forkin, is this your witnoss? I am sorry, 7 Mr. Otto, your witness, 8 DIRECT EXAMINATION 9 BY MR. OTTO:
10 0 would you please stato your name and business 11 address for the record?
12 A Charlos II. Zimmerman, Superintendent,.Stato 13 Correctional' Institution at Gratorford.
14 O Superintendent Zimmerman, do you have before you 15 today a document entitled "Tostimony of Charlos II. Zimmerman, 16 Superintendent, Stato. Correctional Institution at Gratorford 17 on Behalf of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania"' consisting 18 of an eight-page written testimony and a ono-pago attachment 19 ontitled " Flow Chart" and a four pago resumo of yourself?
20 A Yos.
21 0 ,
Does this document constituto your direct testimony 22 in the procoading?
23 A Yes, it doos.
24 Q And was this testimony prepared by you' or under hol hporem, is.
25 your direction?
- w, -
.v 20,761 SiH\-
, 2=4 1 A Yes.
2 O And do you have any corrections to make at this 3 time?
4 A No.
5 0 Is your testimony true and correct to the best 6 of our knowledge, information, and belief?
7 A It is.
8 MR. OTTO: Your Honor, at this time I would move 9 the testimony of Charles H. Zimmerman, Superintendent, State 10 Correctional Institution of Graterford on behalf fo the 11 Commonwealth of Pennsyvlania be roccived in evidence.
12 JUDGE HOYT: Mr. Otto, do you intend to have
(' 13 the resume of Mr. Zimmerman attached to this statement?
14 MR. OTTO: Yes, ma'am.
15 JUDGE HOYT: I don't recall whether or not you 16 described that or only the eight-page statement of testimony.
17 MR. OTTO: Yes, ma'am, that was the four-page 18 resume for Charles H. Zimmerman previously described.
19 JUDGE HOYT: Any objection?
20 MR. LOVE: No objection.
21 JUDGE HOYT: I think all the copics of this that 22 the Board has, Mr. Otto, has a problem with the flow chart, 23 and specifically it is in the middic of that flow chart on 24 the left-hand side. Evacuation noems to have slid up, and Aheral n porters, in.
25 was there anything attached above that? If it will help L_
20,762 ,
1 S m 2-5 1 you to see the copy that we have, perhaps that would be 2 somewhat more descriptive than my word description.
3 MR. OTTO: Your lionor , I was provided a copy 4 of the flow chart that I think is identical to yours. The 1
5 only thing that was shifted there were the captions for those l
I 6 figures, and on the left-hand side it says evacuation and 7 on the right-hand side it says evacuation begins, and the 8 rest of the copy is accurate. So with those minor ---
9 JUDGE IIOYT There is nothing that has been 10 deleted then by the duplicating process.
11 MR. OTTO: No, Your lionor.
12 JUDGE IIOYT: I think that is what had concerned
' 'N 13 the Members of the Board here.
14 MR. OTTO: No, nothing was deleted in the 15 process.
16 JUDGE !!OYT: Very well then.
17 JUDGE COLE: So underneath the words " Evacuation 18 begins," there is a repeat of that and it is illegible.
19 MR. OTTO: Correct.
20 JUDGE COLE: Can we just put a line through .
21 it?
22 MR. OTTO: Correct. Under " Evacuation begins,"
23 the first line should read " Vans leaving institution," and 24 I believe it does on those copics. l A.hroin. pore.,i,w.
25 JUDGE !!OYT: Again, I ask if there are any
20.763 Sim 2-6 1 objections.
[, 2 (No response.)
3 JUDGE HOYT: Very well. The testimony of i
4 Charles H. Zimmerman, Superintendent, State _ Correctional 3 Institution at Graterford on Behalf of the Commonwealth of 6 Pennnsylvania," and eight-page statement with a flow chart 7 attached.the the resumo, which is a multi-pago document l
8 containing four pages of the qualifications of the witness, 9 will be received into evidence and attached to the record 10 at this point..in'the transcript.
11 (The Testimony of Charles H. Zimmerman together 12 with the attachments described followst) lC:)
l 14 l
15 16 17 18 19 l
! 20 21 22 23 24 col hp.,w, Inc.
25
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O UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
. Before the Atomic Safety and Licensing Board in the Matter of )
)
Philadelphia Electric Company ) Docket Nos. 50-352
) 50-353 (Limerick Generating Station, )
Units 1 and 2 ) <
TESTIMONY OF CHARLES H. ZIMMERMAN, SUPERINTENDENT, STATE CORRECTIONAL INSTITUTION AT GRATERFORD ON BEHALF OF THE COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA Q.1. Please state your full name and business address for the record.
A.1. Charles H. Zimmerman, Superintendent, State Correctional. Institution at Graterford, Box 244, Graterford, Pennsylvania,19426.
Q.2. How long have you been the superintendent for Graterford?
A.2. I came to Graterford in August of 1983, as the Acting Superintendent pending confirmation. I was confirmed as permanent superintendent in November of 1983.
Q.3. Have you remained superintendent from that time?
A.3. Yes.
Q.4. Superintendent Zimmerman, could you please describe your prior correctional experience as well as your education and background?
A . 4. This information is contained in a document entitled Resume - Charles H.
O Zimmerman which is attached hereto.
Q.5. Could you please describe your responsibilities as the superintendent of the State Correctional Institution at Graterford?
A.5. I am the chief executive officer of the institution with administrative responsibility for the fiscal management and operation of the institution. It is my responsibility to maintain the security and maintenance operations aspect of the institution. Additionally, I oversee the provision for the health, safety and welfare of our inmates and to provide programs for their rehabilitation.
Q.6. Are you familiar with the Radiological Emergency Response Plan for Graterfot'd in response to a nuclear incident. at the Limerick Generating Plant?
A.6. Yes, I am familiar with the plan. I worked closely with our RERP Coordinator, Mr. Stephen Lucash, to determine what we would have to do to gather our inmates to implement an evacuation and to coordinate the process of bringing in the appropriate vehicidh and embarking our inmates on those vehicles and getting them out according O to the selected routes. This process was done in conjunction and cooperation with the Pennsylvania Emergency Management Agency, as well as the Central Office for the Department of Corrections', both of whom gave us support and suggestions. We also ran through an evacuation emergency exercise with these agencies for the Federal Emergency Management Agency on March 7,1985.
4 Q.7. Have you been involved in developing an estimated time of evacuation for Graterford?
A.7. Yes. It is my understanding that Commissioner Jeffes gave an estimated time for evacuation for Graterford several months ago. We subsequently undertook an
- independent analysis of the components of and the time needed to complete an evacuation of Graterford. In doing so, we worked with staff at Graterford on site and developed O an evaeuatiea time estim te sesed ge# a st experieaees s to ao ioar it would take us to secure, prepare for evacuation and ultimately evacuate the institution.
2-
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4
'\ ; ' ? /.fter we developed the estimated time of evacuation at Graterford, I reviewed it with O c'okmissioner Jeffes. We both used the same methodology in developing our estimated j dme of evacuation. In my opinion, in order to arrive at a reasonable estimated time
/ o.f evacuation, the method we used is the only method. To more fully illustrate this e u methodology, we developed a flow chart, which is submitted with this testimony.
\ \ i
/ \ Q.C. i Superintendent Zimmerman, turning to the flow chart, how was this developed?
A . 8. We' developed our estimates based upon previous experience with other
- emergencies and the day-to-day operation of the prison. We know, for example, that to lockdown' the institution would take us approximately 30 minutes. We then would have to 'get a count of the inmates. We make counts routinely everyday, and they take approximately 30 minutes.
Q.9. Sup intendent Zimmerman, do you expect it to.take any longer, to lockdown Q.
D-the institution 'during an evacua' tion situation than on a normal day?
l l Based on our pitst experience, when there are life threatening situations and t A.9.
the inmates know something is going on, for their own good, they cooperate with the staff. Foy exunple, we've had fire drills in the past, and inmates cooperate with those.
(' ! So, during an evacuation due to a nuclear incident, we expect this to take thirty minutes.
l3a .s Q.10. SuperMendent Zimmerman, are there sit:.lations and circumstances for this u ,
evicuation where the inmates would not have to be locked down?
l \A.10. Yes. If this happened in the middle c' the night or during one of our i
!pigulation counts. the institution population would already be locked down. We have 1) the population, locked down at 5 p.m. daily just before dinner for count.
We
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O 3 .
p
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also have a majority of the prison population in its cells just before lunch, about 11:30 a.m. There are, therefore, several times during the day, as well as the entire night, that we would not have to undergo the lockdown process. For the purpose of estimating the time for evacuation, however, it was reasonable to include the time needed to effect a lockdown.
1 .
Q.11. What, if anything, will the inmates be told while the officers are walking the blocks taking the count?
A.11. While the officers are taking count, the inmates would be notified via odr public address system, which is heard throughout the institution, that they should pack their personal effects in a pillowcase, that they would be permitted to take only that which would fit on that person and the pillowcase, and only those health and comfort items deemed necessary for their trip and for their relocation.
O '
Q.12.
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Would the inmates have any other notice regarding the ~ evacuation?
A.12. Yes. We plan to issue an addendum to the inmate handbook, which is given to every inmate. The addendum will tell the inmates what to do to help in the evacuation.
Q.13. Turning to the " Vehicle Arriving" portion of the flow chart, can you describe how you arrived at those figures?
A.13. Yes. We travel these routes regularly with our own buses and vans when l
moving from one facility to another, and we used what we considered to be the most reasonable figure. If we would have gradual entry into the emergency situation, we would already have the buses on site at Graterford. On the other hand, if we have a more rapidly developing incident, it may take between one to three hours for the bus companies to get their vehicles to the support facilities and then travel time to Graterford. The figure we used in developing the estimate was two to four hours. This 4
t is a realistic travel time from the support institutions to Graterford and is based on the drivers having the busses at the support institutions.
Q.14. Turning your attention to the off-duty personnel figures on the flow chart, can you discuss how they were arrived at?
A.14. Yes, the chart indicates that off-duty personnel will arrive in one to two hours. We know this because we've had emergency situations where we've had to call in off-duty personnel. In addition, our institution emergency plan, which is tested at .
least twice a year, requires us to conduct a test of our call-in system. Our response in this instance is based upon those tests as well as those actual emergency situations that have happened over the past several years. Some of the personnel begin to arrive almost immediately, but to get the manpower for the loading teams will take one to two hours. All of the off-duty personnel would not be required to effect our evacuation i
plan; only the number indicated in the plan itself would be necessary to effect the O
movement of the inmates from their cells to the staging area. -
Q.15. Turning your attention to the " Vehicle Loading Team" figure on the flow chart, can you discuss how that was arrived at and what it really means?
l A.15. Basically, it means that we assigned designated personnel to be vehicle loading -
teams, that is, they would be at the staging areas. We have designated five of those areas in various places in the institution to which inmates would be funneled and boarded on the buses. Loading team personnel are required to see that the inmates get on the proper vehicle.
l Q.16. Turning your attention to the information under the heading of " Evacuation" on the flow chart, could you explain the figures shown for the Class 3,4 and 5 inmates?
O
f A.16. Y es. Class 4 and 5 inmates are those inmates requiring the least amount of security that we have at our institution. In point of fact, many of these inmates live outside the walls of the institution and work outside the walls. Some of them go home on furloughs periodically. Class 3 inmates are those inmates designated as our general population. They are free to move about the inside of the institution depending on their work assignments, where they live, and in which program they are involved. All of our staff who would be involved in moving these inmates have been trained in the use of security equipment and use it on a regular basis. We have designated special .
teams that go on the blocks, the numbers determined by the size of the block and the amount of security needed. These teams would effectively remove the inmate from his cell, apply the appropriate security device and see him on his way to the appropriate staging area. The teams can move from cell to cell because we will have officers running a line from the block that is being evacuated onto the staging area. The
. Inmate.will be directed to go and follow that line of officers so that the inmates in effect would be walking to the stahing areas for boarding the buses in a smooth,
' ~
uninterrupted flow.
Q.17. Superintendent, the amount of time you have allocated for these Class 3, 4 and 5 inmates appears to indicate that more than one inmate at a time in each of these classes will be getting security restraints and being loaded, is that correct?
A.17. Yes. We have teams of officers doing this simultaneously on several blocks and moving right down the block on all of the ranges and tiers. Ranges and tiers are the different parts of the cellblock.
Q.18. In the flow chart you allocated more time for the Class 1 and 2 inmates.
Could you describe what Class 1 and 2 inmates are and why you allowed more time to O reste ia ao io a these ia tes'
A.18. Class 1 and 2 inmates are those requiring the highest degree of security that we have in the facility. These are inmates who are in our restricted housing units or in disciplinary lockup or administrative custody. The reason we have allowed more time to restrain and load them is because of additional security devices that may be used and the additional security required in moving them from their cells to the vehicles.
Again, there are several teams working, depending upon the location and the physical plant, and the time estimate is based on the fact that the officers are familiar with using the restraints and moving the inmates. .
Q.19. What effect would there be on the evacuation if one of the cellblocks refuses to lockdown or in some other way tries to impede the evacuation of the institution?
A.19. I believe minimal to none. My opinion is based upon the fact that we handle emergency situations en an almost regular basis, and the very nature of the fact that Graterford is a maximum security correctional facility. We have a team of trained O personnel, our ' Emergency Response Team, which would be on hand and would be ready to respond to any type of situation like this. We can isolate areas inside the institution, and once isolated, we simply move the required personnel into that area, and they do whatever it is that they have to do to restore order.
Q.20. The other inmates could still be evacuated?
A.20. Absolutely.
Q.21. Turning your attention to the caption " Evacuation Begins" on the flow chart, how did you arrive at the numbers for the times of evacuation for the vans, ambulances and buses?
A.21. We arrived at these figures by evaluating the actions that would take place during the evacuation. Certain actions will take place at the same time. We can
- - - - e y--- w-- -7 i- -
8 begin lockdown, request the vehicles and call in off-duty personnel at the same time. As I discussed earlier, inmates will be restrained, loaded into vehicles and removed as *he vehicles arrive on site. To arrive at the total of eight to ten hours, we reviewed -the busses that would be coming at what time and how many inmates would be loaded at what times. We then added a short peried of time for travel time out of the evacuation area. Although I am not at liberty to disclose evacuation routes, I can say that we will have the inmates go out of the evacuation area in a reasonably direct route. We will certainly not take them out past Limerick. ,.
Q.22. Why do you have a range of numbers in this section?
A.22. Because we would load the busses as they arrive and send them out to the support institutions, and the busses are expected to come in at varying times since they are travelling different distances.
Q.23. In conclusion, Superintendent Zimmerman, do you believe the evacuation could take longer than the eight to ten hours you have compiled for the evacuation time estimate for Graterford?
A.23. In my opinion, it's highly unlikely. We developed the estimate using figures based on experience, including experience with emergency situations. The inmates will .
have been provided information with respect to an evacuation in the inmate handbook and will be kept abreast of developments during an incident. My staff and I are confident that the evacuation can be completed in the time indicated in the flow chart.
l l
O l l
FLOW RT p%) S .
R .E .R.P .- ACUATION Evacuation Order:
Lockdown Order (30 Minutes): '
i
! Population Count (30 Minutes):
1 l
Vehicles Arriving (2 to 4 hours4.62963e-5 days <br />0.00111 hours <br />6.613757e-6 weeks <br />1.522e-6 months <br />, adverse conditions 4 to 6 hours6.944444e-5 days <br />0.00167 hours <br />9.920635e-6 weeks <br />2.283e-6 months <br /> maximum) 58 Buses - 3 Ambulances 10 Vans Off Duty Personnel Called (1 to 2 hours2.314815e-5 days <br />5.555556e-4 hours <br />3.306878e-6 weeks <br />7.61e-7 months <br />, adverse conditions 2 to 3 hours3.472222e-5 days <br />8.333333e-4 hours <br />4.960317e-6 weeks <br />1.1415e-6 months <br /> maximum)
Vehicle Loading Teams Assigned 5 Loading Sites (I hour)
A-B-C-D-E Evacuntion Ber, ins:
Cei oitlon-
..ifI..o f.vnet:Alhots:
200 Inmates Class 4 & 5 (1 Minute per 1 Man) Vans Leaving Institution (Within 3 Hours of Notice to Evacuate)
! (25 Minutes Securing & Loading) 2125 Inmates Class 3 (1 Minute per 1 Man) Ambulances Leaving Institution (5 Hours 10 Minutes Securing & Loading) (Within 3 Hours of Notice to Evacuate) 125 Inmates Class 1 & 2 (5 Minutes Per Man) Buses Leaving Institution (Within 3 to 8 Hours of Notice to Evacuate)
~
(2 Hours 6 Minutes Securing & Loading)
EVACUATION COMPLETED Last group of buses leaving within 8-10 hours 6 e
RCSWE CHARLES H. M IR*%N r
'd 4603 Perkionen Creek Road Furital Status: tbrried Cbilegeville, Pennsylvania 19426 Two Children hiephone: 215-489-2184 Date of Birth: February 16, 1944 E N ION RECEIVED B.A. Ohio State University, 1969 bbjor: Sociology I .
sVL 011985 M.S. Xavier University, 1971 Fbjor: Correctic as OFF;CE OF CHIEF COUNSE CORRECTIOW, D*PERIENCE ' -
August 1983 - Present State Correctional Institution at Graterford *
- Post Office Box 244 Graterford, Pennsylvania 19426 Acting Superintendent 'Ihree Fbnths; Appointed: November 14, 1983 DUTIES: 'Ibtal ad:ninistrative responsibility for treatnent, custody, and fiscal operations of a maximum security state institution with a population of approximately 2400 adult felons. Directly re-O sponsible for day to day operation of the institution -
b ~
and providing for care, custody, control, and re-habilitative services of the inmates. Responsible to plan, organize and direct the program and operation, including a Diagnostic and Reception Center; classifi-cation and treatment programs, overall custody, farm, industrial and plant operations, fiscal operations, and personnel management. Responsible for institutional policies and procedures under, fprmulating the utbrella of Bureau of Cbrrection guidelines and directives.
Presently working towards institution accreditation.
Direct a staff of over six-hundred (600) enployees and ad:ninister a budget in excess of $32,000,000.
June 1980-August 1983 State Correctional Institution at Huntingdon Drawer R Huntingcbn, Pennsylvania 16652 Superintendent i
i DUTIES: 'Ibtal responsibility for treatment, custody, I and fiscal operations of a maxinum security State l
Correctional Institution with a population of over 1550 adult felons. Duties same as above. During my tenure as Superintendent, the institution population
(] increased fran approximately 1000, for a gain of over
/
CHMuls H. EDMDOM PAGC 2 50%. Staff increased as well to cpproximtely 365 full tine e::ployees, and the annual budget went frtr approx 2mately $10,000,000 to approximately $13,500,(
, Accepted and net the challenge to enable the insti-tution to assimilate this large increase in populata with a mininnrn of difficulty and no major problems 1 innovative progrannung, developing alternative schep for routine functions such as showers, feeding, recr t
ation, etc., double celling, and the development of dormitory and outside nodular housing units. Also brought the institution to within final readiness st for the Comnission of Accreditation audit.
June 1978-June 1980 State Regional Correctional Facility at Mercer R.D. #2, P.O. Box 10 Mercer, Pennsylvania 16137 (Regional Correctional Institution)
Superintendent DUTIES: Total responsibility in directing the treat nent, custody, and supportive programs of a 180 man minimum security, regional correctional facility.
Began by recruiting, hiring and training a total sta of 101 personnel involved in all areas of institutic operations including maintenance, dietary, medical, clerical, security, personnel, and business manageme Directly responsible for the subsequent day-to-day
, operations of the institution in providing for the c O -
custody, control and rehabilitative services for inm Formulated and inplemented institutional operating philosophy and directed program developnent to provi for academic and vocational opportunities for inmate comnitted to the institution. Also direct deval m and inplementation of group and individual counselin educational release programs, work release programs <
a full spectrum of leisure time recreational activit Responsible to oversee and direct an overall operati budget of $2.3 million.
March 1973-May 1978 State Cbrrectional Institution Post Office Box 99901 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15233
. (Maximtun Security Cunm?donal Institution)
Deputy Superintendent for Inmate Services 2
DUTIES: Total administrative responsibility for the treatment area of a one thousand inmate, adult, maxis security correctional facility. 'Ihis included the direct sqpervision of department supervisors in the following areas: medical services, cx>unseling (in-cluding psychiatric and psychological), diagnostic ar classification center, activities, chaplains, data O
1
~
OlARLES H. ZDtDMW PAT 3
~
services (including records, clerical and receiving),
vocational placement, and education (academic and vocational). Developed volunteer resources and ccm-munity services involving over fifty (50) separate O aee=cies e=a ever t -womarea (2oo> i=aivia= 2 9 rtici-pants rendering services to inmates. Involved with labor issoas, including grievance hearings, regular meet and discuss mootings and negotiations regardi:x3 local issues. Responsible for review and approval of
.. budgets for all treatment areas. Review all disciplinar procedures and individual inmate lock-ups. Review i
nonthly sanitation, health and safety standards of entire institution including dietary and living quarters
, Administrator in charge of the institution on a regular basis as rotating " Duty Officer" and Acting Superintende during his absence.
July 1972-March 1973 Imbanon Correctional Institution P.O. Box 56
Tahanon, Ohio (Medium Security Correctional Institution)
Assistant Associate Superintendent DUTIES: Served as Administrative Assistant to the Superintendent and both associate superintendents.
Performed administrative, coordinating, and supervisory duties in all areas of the institution including security, treatment, and ccamanity programs 'and relation f -
, Acted as legal advisor to institution disciplinary boari and performed public relations activities for the in-
_ stitution, which included news interviews, television appearances, and public speeches. Conducted in-service training classes for all institution personnel. Alma acted as direct liaison between inmates and line pe.ra ..
and the Superintendent, thereby insuring a cooperative acceptance and inplementation of new departmental policies and procedures. Directed and coordinated all I
inmate programs including religious, conmunity services' and Jaycees. On assigned weekends, and holidays, acted as administrator in charge of the institution.
October 1969-July 1972 Iebanon Correctional Institution
, Post Office Box 56 lebanon, Ohio (Mediun Security correctional Institution)
I Social Worker i
DUTIES: Supervised the Social Services Department in l
the absence of the regular supervisor. Had a caseload of up to 450 inmates. Acted as a voting member of
! various institution conmittees. Conducted a narcotics education program within the institution and gave presentation on drug abuse to interested citizens' O groups and educational facilities. Conducted i
l l
y ,,_- - w,n- , --ea--- ---------m-----n-ww ~ - - - - - - - - - - - -
mlmo&RF.'dG)MR PAGC 4 individual, group, and f amily counseling. Wrote social histories and special reports for the Parole Board.
June 1969-October 1969 Ohio State Penitentiary IGi Post Office Box 511 Columbus, Ohio (mxinum Security Penitentiary)
Social Worker DUTIES: Duties included counseling, participation in orientation programs, research and writing social historf TEACHING AND CCESULTDC C
August 1984 Ca mission on Accreditation for Corrections Certified Camission consultant for adult Correctional Institutions.
June-July 1984 New Jersey Civil Service Dcaminer Trenton, New Jersey Correctional Administration Dcaminer January 1980-1981 Certified Instructor for Municipal Police Officers Education and Training September 1979-May 1980 Indiana University of Pennsylvania Indiana, Pennsylvania >
-O -
za tructor - cr1===olo97 -e<*e# ion Pr~ -ze June 1974 Xavier University Cincinnati, Ohio Consultant - Training Prvgican for County Corrections Offs September 1972-June 1973 Xavier University
-Cincinnati, Ohio Graduate Instructor - Corrections .<
- Octr+=r 1972-Decenber 1972 Hocking Technical College j Nelsonville, Ohio l Undergraduate Instructor - Corrections i
l MILITARY l
May 1966-March 1968 U. S. Marine Corps f
PRCFESSIONAL ORGANIZATICNS I
American Correctional Association - Menber North American Association of Wardens and Superintendents - Member O Pennsylvania Prison Wardens' Association - Menber l
l l'
l
4e__
20,764 S
1 NUDGE'HOYT: Very well, do you have~ady
. (_{m
>- 2-7 '2 additions, deletions or'revisi~ ohs to make on~this,'!b: Otto, 3 or is the witness' tendered for cross-examination?
'4 MR. OTTO: The witness is tendered for cross, 5 Your Honor.
t 6 JUDGE HOYT: Very well.
7 The order for cross-examination was not 8 establi'shed. However, I think we will simply start out 9 with the applicant and move around the_ room accordingly, 10 with the staff being the last, which is customary ~in these 11 hearings. If you- are not acquainted with that procedure, 12 Mr. Love, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission Staff attorney 13 is usually afforded the last' position in the examination
(}
14 ritual.
15 So we will take the applicant, Mr. Conner, and 16 his staff first, and then we will take. Mr. Hirsch and 17 then the Nuclear Regulatory Commission staff.
18 Mr. Conner, would you begin your cross, please.-
l9 MR. CONNER: The applicant has no cross of this 20 witness.
2I JUDGE HOYT: Very well.
22 Mr. Hirsch, do you have any examination of the 23 witness?
24 MR. HIRSCH: Your Honor, I don't anticipate having rst Reporters, Inc.
25 any cross, but perhaps Mr. Love might be given the
20,765 Sim 2-8 .
,s 1 opportunity to proceed.
- 2 V
2 JUDGE HOYT: Well, now, Mr. Hirsch, we have 3 already described the routine. He is going to be given 4 that opportuntity. You don't have to appeal for his 5 participation.
6 MR. HIRSCH: Okay.
7 JUDGE HOYT: Do you want to begin your cross, 8 Mr. Love?
9 MR. LOVE: Excuse me?
10 JUDGE HOYT: Are you ready to begin your cross?
11 MR. LOVE: Yes, I am ready to begin.
12 JUDGE HOYT: Proceed.
13 CROSS-EXAMINATION 1'."'i jINDEX 14 BY MR. LOVE:
15 Q Good afternoon,-Superintendent Zimmerman.
16 A Good after' noon.
17 Q I would like to touch' briefly upon -your resume 18 prior to getting to the merits of the testimony. I would 19 like to ask you if you have received' any training regarding 20 preparedness for a nuclear emergency during your schooling 21 and what-not?.
22 A Prior to coming into Graterford, you mean?
23 Q Yes.
.24 A No.
ertl Reporters, Irg.
25 Q Did you receive any training in basic radiological
20,766 Sim 2-9 I principles?
O 2 A No.
3 Q Do you have any training in traffic engineering?
4 A No.
5 Q Do you have any training in evacuating large 6
institutions?
7 A Experience.
8 Q And what experience would that.be?
9 A With development of plans at the State 10 Correctional Institution at Huntington when I was Superintendent 11 at Huntington, with assisting-in plans to evacuate the State 12 Correctional Institution at Camp. Hill when~I was Superintendent
) 13 at Mercer and also in developing plans to evacuate the State 14 Correctional Regional Correctional Facility at Mercer.
15 Q Now which, if any, of those dealt with nuclear 16 emergencies?
17 A All of them. We had to develop emergency plans 18 in all of our institutions for any type of emergency, and 19 when the Three Mile Island Incident occurred, it made us 20 aware of the fact that we had to develop evacuation plans for 21 nuclear emergencies as well.
22 Q So that occurred after the Three Mile Island 23 accident; is that correct?
24 A eral Reporters, Inc. A That is correct.
25 Q Nere you in any way involved in any evacuations
20,767 Sim 2-10 7s. 1 during the Three Mile Island incident?
\)
A 2 No.
3 0 And where were you working in 1979 when.that 4 occurred, if you recall?
5 A The State Regional Correctional Facility at Mercer.
6 Q I see. Have you had' any experiedcanin : evacuating 7 a. prison during a nuclear emergency?
8 A No.
9 Q Now have you in fact ever had to evacuate a large 10 institution?
11 A No.
12 Q With respect to your military service, you were in f' 13 the United States Marine Corps; is that correct?
\-)j 14 A Yes.
15 0 And what rank did you hold in that service?
16 A When I left active duty, I was an E-4 Corporal.
J
+
17 0 I see. And what type of discharge did you receive?
18 A Honorable.
19 Q And why were you in for only 22 months?
20 A It was during the Vietnam era, and I signed up for 21 a two-year enlistment and I got out early to go.to college.
22 Q- All right. Now with respect to the estimated 23 time of evacuation that you have prepared, and I believe you 24 said you subsequently undertook an independent analysis of the rd Reporters, Inc.
25 components of of the estimated time of evacuation; is that
20,768 m 2-11 1 correct?
2 JUDGE HOYT: Where are you reading from, Mr. Love?
3 MR. LOVE: From his testimony, excuse me one 4 moment.
5 (Pause.)
6 Page 2, question and answer No. 7.
7 "Have you been involved in developing an estimated' 8 time of evacuation for Graterford?"
9 "Yes. It is my understanding that Commissioner 10 Jeffes gave an estimated time for evacuation for Graterford 11 several months ago. We subsequently undertook an independent 12 analysis of the components. of and the time needed to complete 13 an evacuation of Graterford."
14 Is that accurately stated?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 BY MR. LOVE:
17 Q It is my understanding that, and correct me if 18 I am wrong, that Commissioner Jeffes' estimate was six to ten 19 hours. Is that accurate?
20 A I believe that is what the Commissioner estimated.
21 Q And am I correct in stating that your estimate is 22 slightly different than his estimate? Is that correct?
23 A Let me see exactly where we came up with it. I 24 believe ours was a bit shorter than the Commissioner's.
A eral Reporters. Inc.
25 JUDGE HOYT: If you have a citation to the t
20,769
~
Sim 2-12
, 1 testimony, Mr. Love, it would'save some effort.
2 MR. LOVE: I have ---
3 THE WITNESS: Our flow chart summarizes it at 4 eight to ten hours. _ When we put the figures together, we were 5 still within the six to ten-hour range I believe.
6 14R. LOVE: The document that I was referring to, 7 and the only information in the record came in the form of 8 an affidavit of E.-Robert Schmidt Jeffery Kaiser concerning 9 the risks to the inmates of the State Correctional Institute 10 at Graterford from accidential releases of radioactive material 11 from the Limerick Generating Station. It was attabhed as an 12 exhibit to the applicant's first request for an exemption.
13 No. 13 states, "Once notification to evacuate the
{j 14 Prisoners has been given, it is expected it will take six
- 15 to ten hours before,the last prisoner is ready to leave 16 (Private" communications between Theodore G. Otto, III, 17 Commonwealth.of Pennsylvania Assistant Counsel, Department -
18 of Corrections, and G. T. Kaiser, Nuss Corporation, 1/31/85."
p 19 Does that refresh your memory with regard to 20 the original six to ten-hour evacuation plan?
21 THE WITNESS: I don't believe I was involved
-22 with that.
23 MR. LOVE: Well, that is what I am trying to 24 get at.
eral Reporters. inc.
25 BY MR. LOVE:
.-,we arw + ~ , - - - 4 - , ,- --~.--,..,m-e c- 3 s-# .r-sc - - +
r w,-
20,770 Sim 2-13 j Q So you know nothing about that particular
'^'
2 estimate; is that correct?
3 A I wasn't involved in that one, no.
4 Q Okay. Is it correct that the plan itself does 6 not contain any specific time frame?
6 A I believe that is correct. I would have to refer 7 to the plan to be positive.
8 Q Okay. So the plan contains no time frame.
9 Commissioner Jeffes through this affidavit has stated six 10 to ten hours. Now you are stating eight to ten hours. I would 11 just like to get how you came up with these figures that seem 12 to be different than prior statements.
~
13 MS. FERKIN: I would object to the question. There
')
14 is a characterization in his question to which I would object 15 to, the characterization of Commissioner Jeffes' estimate.
16 JUDGE HOYT: Have you any argument, Mr. Love?
17 MR. LOVE: I don't know if it is Commissioner 18 Jeffes' estimate. I know that Mr. Otto could perhaps clear:
19 it up. He was the one that was quoted in the prior pleadings 20 stating it was six to ten hours.
21 MR. OTTO: That is correct. I mean Commissioner 22 Jeffes did come up with a six to ten-hour estimate.
23 JUDGE HOYT: Any other arguments?
24 (No response.)
A erti Reporters, Inc.
25 Very well. The objection is sustained.
20,771 Sim 2-14 1 BY MR. LOVE:
2 Q Now could you tell us how you came up with your 3 estimate as a juxtaposition to Mr. Jeffes' estimate?
4 A I believe I can explain in my own words, which I 5 indicated I believe in my direct testimony. Based on the 6 experience that we have with the steps that we have to take 7 to secure the institution, namely, we have to lock the 8 institution up and it depends on the time of day as to how long 9 that would take us. It averages about 30 minutes. We would 10 then have to get a count of our population, and the average 11 for that is about 30 minutes as well.
12 If at the same time that we receive the direction 13 that we had to secure the institution for an evacuation and 14 the buses were sent on their way, they would be on the way 15 while all this was going on. Within two hours we would be 16 ready to embark on the buses. We would have our staging area 17 set up and we could begin loading the buses and getting 18 inmates out.
19 Then based upon the amount of time it takes for 20 buses to come from their furthest point, get to the staging 21 area and load up and depart is how we came up with our 22 time estimate.
end Sim 23 Joe fols 24 Aher:l Reporters, Inc.
25
20,772 3-1-Joe Wal 1 Q May I approach the witness?
2 JUDGE HOYT: Yes, Mr. Love, you may. If, 3 however, you have some document to show the witness, I would 4 prefer that you give a copy of it first to his counsel before 5 you show it to him, and you have done so, and a copy to the 6 FEMA counsel and a copy to the Nuclear Regulatory Commission 7 Staff and a copy to the Applicant. We would like a copy.
8 MR. LOVE: There are two copies, Your Honor.
t 9 We are one short. l t
10 JUDGE HOYT: Two is fine. {
11 (Document is shown to witness. ) ;
12 MR. LOVE: Now, the document I am referring j 13 to, Number 4.1, Graterford Prison, it is my understanding !
14 this document was the original evacuation time estimate 15 submitted with respect to the Graterford Prison, and it 16 states: State Commissioner of Corrections estimated a total i I
17 evacuation time of five hours and thirty minutes for !
18 Graterford if evacuation order is given in the day time. l 19 BY MR. LOVE: (Continuing) ;
I 20 Q Now, are you familiar with this estimate?
21 JUDGE HOYT: Just a minute, sir. Let me first i
22 find out first of all where you obtained this.
23 MR. LOVE: This was in my files when I took 24 over the case, and it was my understanding that this was l wa neponm, w. l 25 the initial filing with respect to the Graterford Evacuation
3-2-Joe Wal 20,773
^ Plan, some three or four years ago.
- 1 2 JUDGE HOYT
- Mr. Conner, can you give us a 3 hand as to where this particular, I would take it part of the 4 environmental statement --
5 MR. CONNER: That is my recollection. We asked 6 Mr. Zimmerman to produce any document he intended to rely 7 on during discovery, so we could have checked it, and we will 8 check it tonight.
9, My memory is, however, is that this was attached ;
10 to our environmental impact statement which was filed in 1981.
11 March 1981. ;
i 12 MR. OTTO: Just for the record, that substantially
' , I
,1 13 precedes the development and the final drafts of our l 14 evacuation plan, so it wasn't based on a plan in effect l 15 at this time. l 16 JUDGE HOYT: Mr. Love, let me inquire of you, i
17 then, is this really germain to any of the issues before !
i 18 this hearing? l 19 We are dealing with a new estimate entirely.
20 This was filed, oh, four years ago, and I think has been l 21 revised substantially since then.
22 My recollection is that I get some submissions i l
23 on all these things almost daily in the. office, so that I l
24 would seem that this is probably updated, too. l iera nmorar . ime. l 25 MR. LOVE: That is just exactly what my next
20,774 3-3-Jos Wal
{} 1 question is.
2 Are these documents all to be read as one, 3 or are they revisions. Because what I see here is initially 4 a five hour and thirty minute estimate, and then I see 5 Commissioner'Jeffries six to ten hour estimate, and now I 6 see Superintendent Zimmerman's eight to ten hour estimate, 7 and I wonder what is the history of the development here.
8 JUDGE HOYT: Well, Mr. Love, the time to have 9 educated yourself on the background of the case stopped some 10 ago.
11 And it is not going to continue in this case 12 today . We know what we have before us. We are not going
(_/ 13 back into the historical aspects of how these various things 14 were developed. This witness has already told you what his 15 knowledge is, when he came into the planning of the evacuation 16 for this particular installation.
17 And I don't think this is germain to any of the 18 issues that we have.
19 Unless you can give us something better than 20 just an educational process of yourself, I think we will have 21 to ask you to limit your cross examination to the contents 22 of the direct testimony that you have before you.
23 MR. LOVE: I think it is important, Your Honor, 24 to understand the relationship between Superintendent et Repormes, Inc.
25 Zimmerman and the Commissioner of Corrections, especially in )
l
.1
I 3-4-Joe Wal 20,775
/~^ 1 light of the fdct that they are giving two different time
(_)
2 estimates.
3 JUDGE HOYT: I think that can be explained, 4 Mr. Love, and if you wish to examine this witness on that, 5 you may do so.
6 I don't think, however, what appears to be 7 an ancient, in terms of how long this case has gone on, 8 description of the estimated time of evacuation which is 9 not involved in your particular contention.
10 Does anyone else wish to have any -- well, Mr.
11 Conner, you seem to have a finger raised at least. What do 12 you have?
/~'
- (_)\ 13 MR. CONNER
- If the Board please, I checked with 14 Mr. Honan, the Philadelphia Electric engineer who handles l
l 15 licensing matters such as this. He recalls this document i
16 as being one that was requested by the NRC Staff following 17 the Three Mile Island accident to give just estimates for the 18 NRC's planning purposes.
19 It may, or may not, have been included in the 20 draft environmental impact statement. We would note that 21 at the time this was submitted, this was prior to the EPZ 22 having been defined or the evacuation routes defined, and 23 of course, based on 1980 census data.
24 So, there is a lot of reasons why this is just a n.po,=., inc.
25 an early estimate.
20,776 3-5-Jon.Wal
() 1 JUDGE HOYT: It was not then a part of the 2 environmental impact statement, is that-what you are saying?
3 MR. CONNER: I am not sure. We will check that 4 and advise you if there is anything to the contrary.
5 It may have been in both places. It may have 6 been used both places.
7 JUDGE HOYT: Did anyone from the Staf f -- Mr.
8 Hirsh, would you have any input'on this?
9 MR. HIRSH: No , I have no input.
10 JUDGE HOYT: Ms. Ferkin, do you wish to respond 11 to any of the argument? Mr. Otto?
12 MS, FERKIN: The only point I would wish to 13 raise is given the characterization of the document by the 14 Applicant, it seem that the document loses much, or any of 15 its relevance, given the scope of Mr. Zimmerman's time at 16 Graterford. It is obviously a document that predates his 17 involvement.
18 JUDGE HOYT: I am inclined to agree with you, 19 Ms. Ferkin. It does lose its relevance, particularly I 20 thought this was probably from the environmental impact 21 statement, Mr. Love, but it seems to have even less dignity 22 in the proceeding than that.
23 And you have no knowledge from your files 24 where it came from?
Am W Reorwes, im.
25 I don' t think this is germain to any of the
F-20,777 J3-6-Jos Wal'
~3 1 issues we are going to litigate here.
(G 2 Proceed to your next line of questioning.
3 MR. LOVE: One further point on this issue.
4 BY MR. LOVE: (Continuing) 5 Q Superintendent Zimmerman, if you can, can you 6 reconcile your estimates with the estimates that the Department 7 of Corrections Superintendent has given?
8 JUDGE HOYT: Now, by those you mean the eight 9 to ten hours, is that correct?
i 10 MR. LOVE: And if he has any knowledge --
i l 11 JUDGE HOYT: Do you understand the question?
i 12 MR. ZIMMERMAN: If I may rephrase it. What I t'
1 (j\ 13 think Mr. Love is asking me to do is to comment on how my l
14 ' estimate coincides with the Commissioner's estimate of i
15 six to ten hours, which also.. coincides with the original 16 estimate of five and a half hours, and why I might think 17 that there is a difference.
18 BY MR. LOVE: (Continuing) 19 Q Correct.
20 A Initially, this document which was formulated 21 about four years ago, cites that there were 1,800 inmates 22 at Graterford. We now hase approximately 2,600 inmates at 23 Graterfor -- about 2,500 -- a little over 2,500 -- 2,500 to 24 2,600 inmates.
d Reporters, Inc.
25 So, the increase in population will give us an
3-7-Jon Wel 20,778
() 1 additional time factor to be considered.
2 Also, we are talking four years later. We have, 3 I think, sophisticated our techniques a little more and we 4 know more of what we are dealing with when it comes to 5 evacuation of a correctional facility, as well as allowing 6 for those special problems.
7 The Commissioner of Corrections estimate of 8 six to ten hours was a broad figure. Just because I came 9 up with eight to ten does not mean you couldn't accomplish 10 it in less time.
11 I tried to be as realistic as possible, given 12 the average conditions, based upon our experiences with what
() 13 the plan required as well as handling inmakes, as well as 14 evacuating the areas of the institution.
15 Locking them down, checking for security, 16 et cetera.
17 I think what you have' seen as a result of our 18 estimate on site, by myself and my staff, it is merely a 19 synthesis of all of the more general estimates made by the 20 Commissioner of Corrections based upon his experience as 21 head of the entire Department versus what we have to do on 22 site dealing with the people that we work with every day.
23 Q And how did those estimates coincide with the 24 . development of the action plan itself?
e n.porwri, Inc.
25 A .That question I don't understand.
20,779 3-8-Jon Wal l 1 Q Did you have any input into the plan itself?
2 A (Pause) In what sense? We were told we had 3 to evacuate an institution possibly. We had help with 4 central office and PEMA. We had constat communication 5 and in the sense of what goes on on site, yes, we had input, 6 if that is what you mean.
7 Q Yeah. Okay, I will ask you a couple of a particulars with regard to certain aspects of the flow chart 9 you mentioned earlier.
10 First, I would like to turn your attention to the I
11 lock down segment of the flow chart, and it is my understand- i 12 ing that you state that a thirty minute period can be expected j 13 for a lock down.
14 Now, given, of course, the fact that if an 15 emergency occurred at night there would be no need for a lock 16 down, but assuming for the purpose of this question that a l l
17 lockdown occurred during the daylight hours when the inmates l
18 were not already under lock and key in their cells, I am o
19 wondering if the thirty minutes that you anticipated is 20 based upon normal day-to-day operations or is it based upon j l
21 past emergencies, or fire drills, or how did you come to 22 arrive at that thirty minute figure?
23 A All of the above.
24 Q All of the above?
feral Repo,ters, Inc.
25 A All of the above.
v 3-9-Joe Wal '
(} l Q Okay. Now, with respect to prior emergencies, lL 2 which you state that you have taken them into consideration,
'3 were you Superintendent of Graterford during the power 4 outage on C Block in September -- September 12, 1983?
. 5 A I was acting Superintendent at that time, yes.
6 Q Now, I would like to -- just so we can follow 7 along give you a memorandum from Captain Case regarding this 8 incident.
9 (Mr. Love hands document to witness.)
10 The document to which I am referring is entitled, l
l ,
11 Incident in Institution - Power Failure, September 12, 1983, 12 to Deputy Superintendent Vaughan, Major Winder, and Captain
) 13 Diez, and[ file,'from Captain Creighton M. Cason.
14 Do you recall'this incident?
15 A Yes, I do.
End 3. 16 Suet fols. ;
,17 ~
16 19 20 21 22 23 24 Reporters, Inc.
25 i
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- { $
,d+
20,781 Q Now, it indicates in the first paragraph that the
- '")ibSudW21shi
\.
.s 4 2 lights went out at approximately 1715; is that accurate?
4 4
3 A ' To the best of my recollection.
p 4 Q All right. It goes through the various events of 5 that day, and towards the end it indicates C block was
. 6 secured at approximately 2128, D block -- this is Page 2.
v, s '~
wh 37 D block secured at approximately 2205.
- 8 Is that accurate?
d' o s 9 A To the best of my recollection, yes.
, IC ( Q Now, isn't that some four or five hours after e
W i the incident began?
j/ J 12 A Yes, it is.
- '% J ss) 13 y Q And isn't it further stated that at approximately d
1-4 005 a check was made on C block due to inmates not being in 9
15 their proper cell; C block had betweeen two and seven inmates 16 in the bottom section, all were placed in single cells
, s i. < p 17 .approximately 1:20 hours?
18 A Yes.
f I h 19 Q And that would be maybe six hours after the u .. .
, 20 incident occurred; is that correct?
A It's six hours after the initial power failure.
f 21 22 It's not six hours after we began locking up, 23 Q And when would you say you began locking up?
p ,
r
.; 24 A As we moved towards dark. You will note in the i Am- ,
el Rmomo, lm.
25 Il first part of the report, it says we were able to continue h '
si
-...e . .. - -.
\
20,782 j feeding by sunlight.
- 4k "+]SueWalsh 2
0 Right.
3 A It was only towards darkness when we had to start 4
to lock up, we were trying to get the power back. And at 5
that time a condition existed in the institution which no 6 1 nger exists, in that we didn't have an automatic emergency 7
lighting backup system.
8 This was a highly unusual incident that would no 9 longer happen at Graterford.
10 0 So, you are stating that the fact that this lock-up 11 took from four to six hours was because of the failure to have 12 a backup lighting system?
13 A That and the fact that because of the confusion ja of total darkness and the resistance of the inmates in 15 certain isolated areas, such as C block and D block.
16 0 Well, isn't it possible that those pockets of 17 resistance could develop in an emergency at the Limerick 18 Generating Station the same way they did in this inat ance?
19 A No. Number 1, there wouldn't be total darkness, 20 which there was at this time. And no one could identify anyone 21 else.
22 Number 2, an emergency at Limerick would be a 23 life-threatening situation to the inmates. And our past 24 experience has showed us that the inmates cooperate with Ae et Reponen, Inc.
25 those kinds of situations.
20,783
- F'1-SueWalshi And, number 3, if one area were in some way dis-U 2 rupted we would simply isolate that area and proceed with 3 locking up, securing and preparing the rest of the institution 4 and have our emergency squad handle the one isolated area.
5 Q Now, how'long does it take to lock up under normal 6 circumstances?
7 A Approximately thirty minutes.
8 Q So, there is no real additional time frame given 9 for an emergency situation; is that correct?
10 A I'm not sure I understand your question.
11 Q Well, you state that a lock-up normally takes 12 thirty minutes. And you are also stating that under emergency
() 13 conditions a lock-up will also take thirty minutes.
14 Is that correct?
15 A It depends on the emergency. In some instances, 16 it may happen faster if the inmates know it is for their own 17 good. In other instances where you may have a pocket of 18 resistance, it may take longer.
19 Q I see. All right. Going back to the hostage seige 20 of October of ' 81, I understand that you were not at that 21 time superintendent at Graterford; however, you were working 22 for the Department of Corrections; is that not correct?
23 A That's correct.
24 MR. HASSELL: Judge Hoyt, the steff is very Ace el Reporters, Inc.
25 reluctant to interrupt Mr. Love's cross. But I believe for
20,784 9 purposes of the record, since it appears that Mr. Love is
(^)1-4-SueWa1 u
2 moving to another document that Mr. Love should identify --
3 at least identify for the record the document that he has 4 just finished examining the witness on, because I think it is 5 going to be very difficult to follow in terms of this record.
6 JUDGE HOYT: I think you are correct, Mr. Hassell.
7 Mr. Love, can you give us some insight as to where this 8 particular document came from?
f 9 Do you intend to have it marked as an exhibit? Do 10 you intend to insert it in the record, or try to have it 11 inserted in the record?
12 MR. LOVE: Yes. I apologize for that oversight.
13 JUDGE HOYT: All right. Then, go ahead and pro-14 ceed. Give us the rundown on this.
15 MR. LOVE: I will label the first document that 16 I referred to, however, which was rejected as P-1.
17 This one I will label as P-2. This document was I
18 obtained through discovery with Mr. Otto, counsel for l
l 19 Superintendent Zimmerman.
L 20 JUDGE HOYT: Then, what I will mark as Graterford 21 Inmates Exhibit 1 is the Subject Incident and Institution 22 Power Failure on September 12.
l 23 MR. LOVE: I was going to call that 2. I was going
- 24 to call 1 the prior document that I submitted that was part Am- el Reorms, lm.
25 of the Environmental Impact Statement.
20,785
- f']-SueWalshi JUDGE HOYT: No. You have already been told, Mr.
v 2 Love, it was not part of the Environmental Impact Statement.
3 Mr. Conner just -- my understanding was that Mr. Conner had 4 said that this was not in fact --
5 MR. CONNER: It was originally created for an earlier 6 purpose, but whether it happens to be in the Environmental Im-7 pact Statement we will have to check.
8 JUDGE HOYT: All right. Then, I perhaps misunder-9 stood you and have misspoken.
10 What we will mark then is Graterford Inmates Exhibit 11 1 for identification, the document marked 4.1 Graterford 12 Prison, what had been marked as Graterford Prison Exhibit --
D
(_) 13 Inmates Exhibit 2 for identification is Subject Incident and 14 the Institution Power Failure, September 12th, 1983.
15 (The document referred to is 16 marked as Graterford Inmates 17 Exhibit Number 2 for Identifica-INDEXXX 18 tion.)
19 Do you have anything else?
20 MR. LOVE: Yes. I would --
21 JUDGE HOYT: All right. Good.
22 MR. LOVE: I would like to submit P-3, Report of 23 the Governor's Panel to Investigate the Recent Hostage Incident 24 at the State Correctional Institute at Graterford.
Am- d R eormrs,lm.
25 I am not giving the whole report but only the portions
20,786
- f-SueWalshi which deal with the incident itself and the lock-down.
N-] l 2 MS, FERKIN: Mr. Love, do you have a copy of the 3 entire report available?
i 4 MR. LOVE: Yes, I do.
5 JUDGE HOYT: As a matter of housekeeping, Mr. Love, 6 while you are distributing-those copies to all counsel, parties 7 to this hearing, and to the Board, we have marked these 8 exhibits as Graterford Inmates Exhibit 1, 2, et cetera.
9 And what we will mark as Graterford Inmates Exhibit 10 3 for identification is the Report of the Governor's Panel to II Investigate the Recent Hostage Incident in Graterford State 12 Correctional Institution dated August 1982.
() 13 (The document referred to is marked 14 as Graterford Inmates Exhibit INDEXXX 15 Number.3 for Identification.)
16 Proceed, sir.
17 MR. LOVE: Yes.
18 BY MR. LOVE: (Continuing) 19 Q Superintendent Zimmerman, are you familiar with this 20 hostage seige that occurred in October of 1981?
21 A Indirectl;r from reports. Yes.
22 Q And are you familiar with this report that was 23 issued by a Governor's Panel that was appointed to investigate 24 l that incident?
! d Reorwrs, Inc.
25 A Yes.
i
20,787
~
77-SueWalsh Q Now, would it be accurate to indicate that the
~_-
2 incident initially was reported as beginning approximately 3 6:45 p.m. on the -- one moment -- October 28th, 1981?
4 A I don't know from direct knowledge of that. I 5 don't know when it began. I wasn't there.
6 I see a statement in the report that you have 7 excerpted from the report itself where it indicates officers 8 were directed to return to the control center for new assign-9 ments at 6:45.
10 So, I don't know what was going on there on site.
11 I wasn't there.
12 Q Well, would it be correct to assume that the c
i 13 incident had been reported and there was a response in 14 progress at that time?
15 A Evidently, yes. i 16 It -- would not one of the first things that one Q
17 would do in this situation would be to lock up the institu-l 18 tion? !
l 19 A That depends on the judgment made on site. That's 20 for the officer in charge of the institution to decide when 21 to do that. l l'
22 Q Turning to Page 5, the first paragraph in the 23 second column states: The head count could not be completed 24 at this time as small groups of inmates were still being Am- 9eral Reporters, Inc.
25 returned to their cells from distant locations, because there l
20,788 jf4/^NSueWalsh) -was no functioning loudspeaker or other system to communicate
(/
l 2 clear instructions to everyone. Also a group of officers was 3 dispatched to investigate rumors that inmates were seen on 4 the institution roof,out in the yard and elsewhere.
5 Do you have any comment on that particular state-6 ment?
7 A Well, we presently ---
8 JUDGE HOYT: Wait a minute. Mr. Love, this 9 ' witness is not here to comment. This witness is here to 10 testify. If he has some testimony that is germane to thes.e 11 issues that we are litigating, that's one thing.
12 But a comment is not an appropriate question in
, - 13 these proceedings.
14 MR. LOVE: WelI, my point is this, Ms. Chairman.
15 This was a prior emergency situation at the State Correctional 16 Institute at Graterford, and I believe that the length of time i
17 that it took to lock-down the institution at that point and 18 time may be relevant to how long it might take to lock-down 19 the institution given an emergency at Limerick.
j.
20 JUDGE HOYT: Mr. Love, this witness has already 21 told you he was not aboard at the time. So, he does not 22 have any direct knowledge of this incident.
23 If you had another witness on this, perhaps. But 24 this witness is certainly not qualified to testify.
{}
Ams->wal Reporters, Inc.
25 MR. LOVE: All right. I will move on.
20,789
- f'7-SueWalshi JUDGE HOYT:- Very well.
V 2 BY MR. LOVE: (Continuing) 3 Q Superintendent Zimmerman, were you asked to bring 4 the log book entries of the various cell blocks during prior 5 emergency situations during your tenure as Superintendent of 6 the State Correctional Institute at Graterford?
7 A No.
8 Q You were at no time requested to produce log books?
9 MR. OTTO: If I may, Madam Commissioner, I spoke 10 with other officials at the State Correctional Institution 11 at Graterford regarding Mr. Love's request for his log books 12 and were informed by them, particularly the Deputy Superin-( 13 tendent for Operations who would know about these, that they 14 don't exist.
15 So, I'm. kind of surprised about this question.
16 JUDGE HOYT: Let me see if I can reconstruct 17 this then, Mr. Otto, i
18 Is it your position, Mr. Love, that you had re-19 quested these logs of Mr. Otto, and you had expected this 20 witness to have these. And you, subsequent and prior to this 21 hearing, if I understand you correctly, Mr. Otto, you 22 advised Mr. Love that those books were not available because 23 they did not exist?
24 Ae MR. OTTO: That's correct. And the memorandum d Reorwts. Inc.
25 that has been already marked as Graterford Inmates 2, was one
r 20,790
- F~?O-SueWals) of the documents produced for Mr. Love to provide him informa-b 2 tion regarding prior emergency incidents at Graterford. He 3 had a list of five. And we have provided information regard-4 ing all five of them.
5 MR. LOVE: May I respond?
6 JUDGE HOYT: Yes.
7 MR. LOVE: After our conference call of June 18th, 8 I attempted to conduct a limited discovery in the form of 9 two requests, one mada June 20th, 1985 to Zori Ferkin, and 10 the subsequent letter dated July 8th, 1985 to Mr. Otto.
11 During both letters I requested information, log 12 book entries and any memorandum regarding how long it took
() 13 to complete the lock-downs during five or six prior emergency 14 situations. To date, I have received one piece of information 15 that gives me what I requested. And that is P-2, which I 16 have already discussed.
17 JUDGE HOYT: Now, let me ask you this, Mr. Love.
18 Did you receive any explanation as to why you had not receiv-19 ed the others?
! 20 MR. LOVE: I initially received an explanation that 21 there was no such thing as a log book for the entire institu-22 tion. I discussed it with inmates who stated that it was 23 their understanding that there were log books for each of 24 the various cell blocks; thus, I wrote a second letter on "A Reporters, Inc.
25 July 8th requesting that this information be made available
20,791 t-ll-SueWah today.
2 MR. OTTO: I never received any letter from Mr.
3 Love dated July 8th, first of all. And, additionally, Mr.
4 Love did pick up a packet -- well, I had a packet of informa-5 tion delivered to Mr. Love in Harrisburg, since that's where 6 he was at the time, containing memorandums regarding the 7 five incidents. And I know he received them because I saw 8 the documents that I had sent to him at the deposition of 9 Major Case.
10 Now, those documents contained the information Il you requested as best we have it regarding essentially lock-12 down times in other emergency situations.
13 JUDGE HOYT: Mr. Love, if there aren't any logs, 14 .there aren't any logs. ,
15 MR. LOVE- Initially -- can I submit as P-4 my I6 -letter of July 8th to Mr. Otto that he claims he never re-17 ceived?
18 JUDGE HOYT: Let me see what you have there, Mr.
I9 Love.
20 (Mr. Love hands a document to Judge Hoyt.)
21 All right. Mr. Love, tell me how this letter was 22 posted, if you recall?
23 MR. LOVE: It was posted by regular mail.
24 JUDGE HOYT: Did you post it by registered mail?
Ace ' Reporters, Inc.
J 25 MR. LOVE: Regular. Excuse me, regular mail.
20,792
$-12-SueW1 JUDGE HOYT: You posted it by regular mail?
2 MR. LOVE: That's correct, Your Honor. i 3 JUDGE HOYT: You have no return receipt or any 4 registration or any documentation?
5 MR. LOVE: No, I do not, Your Honor.
6 JUDGE HOYT: All right. Yes, Mr. Otto.
7 MR. OTTO: One additional point. Mr. Love and I 8 did discuss the possibility the letter would be coming to me 9 regarding some additional information. It was done while we 10 were in Washington, D. C. doing another deposition on a 11 potential witness.
12 And it was -- obviously, if Mr. Love had said the l ) 13 letter was on its way I would certainly have called him had 14 I known if it didn't show up. But I was under the impres-15 sion that he had gone back to his office to stop the letter, 16 since our conversation at that deposition indicated to me 17 that he was mistaken in not receiving a second page essentiall:7 18 of this memorandum that has already been offered as P-2.
19 And I informed him he had gotten the second page.
20 He realized that in his file at that time. And, therefore, 21 we -- I was under the impression the matter was resolved.
22 MR. LOVE: If I may quote from the first line:
23 I am writing to you as a follow-up to our conversation in 24 Washington, D. C. on July 3rd, 1985 and to my previous s n.po,ters, inc.
25 discovery request concerning the data during prior emergency
20,793
' t-13-SueW 1 situations at SCIG.
2 JUDGE HOYT: Mr. Otto, let me inquire of you.
3 At the meeting in Washington on July 3rd, did you tell Mr.
4 Love that these logs did not in fact exist?
5 MR. OTTO: My recollection is that we spoke earlier 6 regarding the existence of these logs. And I had told him 7 earlier that they did not exist to my knowledge.
8 JUDGE HOYT: Earlier than July 3rd?
9 MR. OTTO: Yes, ma'am. To my knowledge, and based 10 on my information and belief, they did not exist.
11 JUDGE HOYT: Do you recall whether or not he 12 inquired of you on July 3rd again about these logs? And did 13 you then give him the same response?
14 MR. OTTO: At July 3rd, the primary focus of Mr.
15 Love's concerns was regarding the second page of the memo- ,
16 randum that has already been admitted. f l
17 JUDGE HOYT: Mr. Love, regardless of the letter, 18 whether it was or was not received, if the logs do not exist, 19 the logs --
20 MR. LOVE: Could I ask Superintendent Zimmerman 21 if they exist --
22 JUDGE HOYT: You sure may.
23 MR. LOVE: -- with respect to the cell blocks?
24 JUDGE HOYT: Can you enlighten us, Mr. Superintendent?
Aneerd Reporters, Inc.
25 WITNESS ZIMMERMAN: There are books that the
20,794
(~'l-14-SueWI Lieutenants keep on the blocks. But, to my knowledge they s._/
2 do not document any such incidents. They are done by 3 separate memorandum.
4 These books are block logs, and they are kept for 5 repair work on the blocks, maintenance of the blocks, shake-6 downs, things of this nature, inmates that have been given 7 warnings about their behavior or the condition of their 8 cells.
9 JUDGE HOYT: How about emergency lock-downs?
'10 WITNESS ZIMMERMAN: Emergency lock-downs would be Il logged-in separate memos and extraordinary occurrence reports, 12 but to my knowledge not in the block log.
( 13 s_/ JUDGE HOYT: All right, Mr. Otto. With that ex-14 planation, do you know whether those logs exist or not?
15 MR. OTTO: The information requested by Mr. Love 16 was regarding lock-downs during emergency situations. And 17 I specifically asked whether log books of that type of 18 information were kept and was informed by the staff at 19 Graterford that they do not exist, and that the only way --
20 in fact, it was exactly what Superintendent Zimmerman testified 21 to, that the way that we keep track of emergency situations, 22 lock-downs, et cetera is by way of separate memorandums 23 which have been provided to Mr. Love.
Ame{+J} Reporters, Inc.
24 MR. CONNER: If the Board please, as a matter of 25 onlightment at this point in the record, during the deposition
20,795 of Major Caso the letter which is identified as Exhibit 3
}-15-SueWI 2 to that deposition is a letter to Mr. Love from Mr. Otto 3 which points out essentially what was just said. There are 4 no logs as to lock-downs in emergencies. And that was the 5 information communicated in this letter.
6 And I think that because of this date of June 27th 7 it may be well to appear in the transcript at this point.
8 JUDGE HOYT: Very well. I think you have a good 9 point, Mr. Conner. Maybe we should include that in the '
l 10 record at this point.
11 MR. CONNER: It is attached. We, at the deposi-12 tion of Major Case, agreed that the whole thing could be
() 13 offered as an exhibit. Since that is identified as Exhibit 3 14 there --
15 JUDGE HOYT: Are you going to offer that later, 16 Mr. Love, the entire deposition of Major Case?
'17 MR. LOVE: I have no objection to that.-
18 MR. CONN ,: At the deposition, it was identified 19 as Applicant's Exhibit 3.
20 JUDGE liOYT: All right. Are you going to offer 21 it, then?
22 MR. CONNER: July 1985. So I will offer it now 23 so that there be no confusion about the matter.
24 JUDGE IIOYT: Very well. That may be the best Ase :s n.po, .. inc.
.25 procedure to adopt at this point. Iny objection by any
20,796 SueW I counsel? Mr. Love, you said you didn't have any?
2 MR. HASSELL: No objection.
3 JUDGE HOYT: Fine. Ms. Ferkin?
4 MS. FERKIN: No objection.
5 JUDGE HOYT: All right. Mr. Conner, do you 6 have additional copies of that?
7 MR. CONNER: We will have them. Everybody at the 8 deposition got these. Unfortunately, I only have this one 9 copy. I assuite the transcript of the deposition was sent to 10 the Board but I don't know that it got there or not.
II JUDGE HOYT: It didn't get there, Mr. Conner.
12 I never have seen this deposition.
13 MR. CONNER: We will make copies of the exhibit 14 tonight and make it available to the Board. Had I known it 15 was going to come up this way, I would have done so.
I6 JUDGE HOYT: We will admit it'at this point in 17 the record, however.
18 Mr. Conner, can I prevail upon you to see if you I9 can get some copies done overnight?
20 MR. CONNER: Sure.
2I MR. HASSELL: The staff has an extra copy should 22 the Board desire one now.
23 JUDGE HOYT: We would appreciate it, Mr. Hassell.
24 That may be also your explanation on your July 8th letter,
- J Reporters, inc.
25 Mr. Love. They just don't get delivered.
20,797
$-17-SueW1 The deposition that we will admit into evidence
(
2 is that of Major case, and it's the entire deposition with 3 all exhibits attached.
4 MR. CONNER: If the Board please, I have no 5 objection to the Board taking that entire deposition at 6 this point. But we are only offering that one letter to 7 clarify the colloquy between Mr. Love and Mr. Otto. I 8 certainly would not want to be in the position of offering 9 .to sponsor Major Case's testimony. I 10 JUDGE HOYT: Well, I took it to be the one letter II of Mr. Love which is attached as Appendix 3 I believe, isn't 12 it, the letter to Mr. Love from the Department of Corrections, 13 signed by Mr. Otto, dated June 27th, 1983, a letter that had I4 been attached as an appendix to the deposition of Major Case 15 then will be attached to the record at this point.
I6 MR. LOVE: Does that letter include the inclosures 17 or is it just the letter itself?
18 JUDGE HOYT: Let me fully describe it, Mr. Love.
19 It's a two-page letter dated June 27th, 1985, addressed to 20 you at your office in Morristown, Pennsylvania, entitled 21 "In the Matter of Philadelphia Electric Company (Limerick 22 Generating Station, Units 1 and 2), Dockets No. 50-352 and 23 50-353."
24 4D #4 Am, 3 hwerters, Inc.
Simons fld$
20,798 7
5
- 5-1 1 JUDGE HOYT:- If you wish to see the copy that the iv l 2 Board has before it, you may do so if you wish.
3 MR. LOVE: That is quite all right, Your Honor.
4 I have a copy.
- 5 , JUDGE HOYT: Very well.. All right, with that 6 explanation then would you continue your crcss-examination, 7 Mr. Love.
8 MR. LOVE: Thank you.
9 BY MR. LOVE:
10 0 Just one further question on the log book. TAreithe 11 daily log books kept by the Lieutenants on the block cn: the I
12 Captains?
13 A Lieutenants.
{~}
14 0 -Lieutenants'on the block. Are you stating to me 15 .that if there was a ' potential for a meltdown at' the Limerick 16 facility and you were given orders to. evacuate the prison that 17 this sort of information would not appear in the daily log 18 books?
19 A That is correct.
20 0 And that there would ba no evidence that the lock-down 21 was called or anything of that nature?
22 A They are not used for that purpose.
23 Q Now do you have copies of the documents that 24 Mr. Otto did send to me regarding the prior lock-downs?
A eral Reportm, Inc.
25 A The one you handed me.
z .
20,799
'Sih 5-2 1 .Q But you don't have any of the other material?
'[
'2 -A . No , I don't.
m 3 0 .There were several additions to the letter 4 regarding the request for information. .I don't have copies 5 , f them, but I believe that all the parties do have them, 6 which I would like.to refer to if I could.
7 JUDGE HOYT: Do you have a copy.for the Board, 8 Mr. Love?- We do not have those.
9 ' MR . LOVE: I don't have it at this time.
10 JUDGE HOYT: All right then. Go ahead.
11 BY MR. LOVE:: 3 12 Q Well, let.me1 withdraw that.
13 In my second le't ter I mentioned another power 14 failure .that; occurred during the week of February 23rd, 1984.
15 Do you remembbr that incident?
-16 A Yes, ,I do.
17 Q Do you' recall what time of day the power failure 18 occurred?
19 A I think that one occurred after dark, but I can't 20 be positive.
21 Q And was this after you got the backup lights, or 22 Prior to?
23 A Prior to.
24 Q And did you have to give a lock-down order at
- hra n. port rs, tu.
! 25 that time?
f g%
'A h p *,.
20,800 Sim5-3 ; A We did lock up the institution at that time.
2 Q And do you recall approximately how long it took 3 for you to achieve that?
4 A It took a while because we had to wait for 5 cmergency generators and lighting to be set up by the 6 Skipak Fire Department to respond to our call for help. Again, 7 it wa s total blackness.
8 0 I sco. When you mentioned a while, are we talking 9 a few hours or ten hours?
10 A No, it wasn't anywhere near ten. It might have 11 been, oh, I don't know -- I don't remember specifically.
12 Q An hour or two hours?
~') 13 A Two maybe, a ball park figure. If you have the 14 doctment there, maybe it tells you.
15 0 I don't have any. That was my unanswered letter 16 of July 8th.
17 MS. FERKIN: Your Honor, I move to strike the 18 last remark.
19 JUDGE HOYT: Yes. Mr. Love, I think there has been 20 sufficient explanation. That is an inappropriate remark.and 2I it will be struck.
22 MR. LOVE: Fine.
23 BY MR. LOVE:
24 Q Were there any other power failures that you can A<hcr;l Reporters, Inc.
25 recall?
20,801 im 5-4 1 A I think we had a rash of them at that time and 2 maybe a total of three altogether that were total.
3 O Did the same problems occur on all three, if you 4 recall?
5 A Until we finally got our emergency lighting, yes.
6 Q I see. When did you get the emergency lighting?
7 A Right after the last one. I mean we finally 8 convinced everybody of the need and the money had to be spent 9 and we finally got them and we got them installed.and they 10 have been operating very successfully, 11 0 In light of this testimony that you have given, 12 do you still believe that you can achieve a lock-down in'30
(~') 13 minutes?
14 A Oh, yes.
15 Q Now moving on to the segment with regard to the 16 vehicle time estimates, you have stated in your flow chart 17 that the vehicles could arrive at the institution between 18 two and four hours, and that under adverse conditions in 19 four to six hours. Is that correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And the vehicles we are talking about are 58 22 buses, 3 ambulances and 10 vans; is that correct?
23 A Those are the figures that we have there, yes.
24 I don't have direct knowledge of the exact amount needed. It A erd Reporters, Inc.
25 is all according to the plan.
r 20,802 5-5 1 Q Are your time calculations for the arrival of the 2 buses based upon past experiences?
3 A They are based upon traveling time that we have 4 experienced with vans and buses in the past, yes.
5 Q Okay. And how far would those vans be coming 6 from, or buses, excuse me?
7 A I think the furtherest is about four hours away.
8 Q And how many miles would that be?
9 A I am not sure offhand. I think maybe a hundred 10 and something, in the high hundreds.
11 Q All right. Just to speed things along, the 12 exhibit that was just introduced by Mr. Conner I believe 13 indicates that the distance is 190 miles at its farthest
')
14 point; is that correct? Can we stipulate to that?
15 MS. FERKIN: Yes. The Commonweath would stipulate 16 to that figure of 190 miles as being'the distance, the 17 farthest distance that 'the buses would have to travel.
18 JUDGE IIOYT: Very well. Any objections from 19 any other party?
20 (No response.)
21 None having been heard, the stipulation will be 22 accepted.
23 BY MR. LOVE:
24 Q Now this 190-mile distance factor, was this A er;l Reporters, Inc.
25 utilized in past expercises when you had the buses coming
20,803 Sim:5-6 i in?
n' 2 ,
A We never actually brought buses in on exercises.
3 This is based upon actual travel time when we transport inmates 4 for other reasons.
- 5 0 Okay. Now that actual travel time, is that under 6 normal conditions?
7 A All kinds of conditions. We transport inmates 8 year round in all kinds of weather.and all kinds of traffic ,
9 and all times of day and night.
10 Q Does it include simultaneous evacuation of the 11 general public due to a nuclear emergency?
, 12 A No.
]
13 ,
O Do you anticipate that the corresponding simul-
{}
14 taneous evacuation of the general public will cause any 15 problems' for the vchicles entering the EPZ and arriving at 16 the State correctional Institute at Graterford?
17 A No.
18 0 You anticipate no problems whatsoever?1 19 A No. '
20 0 Are you assuming then that the general public t
21 will evacuate in an orderly fashion?
22 A I am not making any such assumption. I just know 23 that by the routes traveled and the directness of them and 24 the way that we have practiced and gone over the road that I
' hrti n. port.n, Inc.
25 don't see any problem at all.
r; 20,804' im 5-7 1 0 You don't see any problem with the people leaving 2 the area?
l 3 A No.
I t
4 Q Now you mentioned at some point that these 5 buses ---
6 A Wait. Let me back up on your last question. .You 7 said with the~ people leaving the area.
8 -Q The general public.
9 A In working with the various management agencies 10 and everything, you know, we are using routes and ways that 11 make it most efficient for us and do not hit any major areas, 12 and with the time involved for the buses to get there, because 13 of all of those factors, I don't foresee any problems. Now 14 whether there are going to be problems with the populace 15 leaving the area or not, I don't know.
16 Q I see. So you haven't really calculated that 17 into the formula; is that correct?
18 A That isn't in my area of responsibility; that is 19 correct.
20 JUDBE HARBOUR: Excuse me, a point of clarifi-21 cation. You said you didn't have any problem with, or you 22 didn't understand the problem or you weren't involved in the 23 problem of the evacuation of the general public. Were you 24 referring to difficulties of the public evacuating or possibic hrti it. pore.rs, Inc.
25 interference with your buses?
20,805
'Sim 5-8 j THE WITNESS: Basically the public evacuating.
1 BY MR. LOVE:
2 3 Q Now you state at some point in your testimony that 4 the buses would go from _the bus companies that have been ntracted with to a support center and then to the 5
institution; is that correct?
6 7 'A Did I state that in my written testimony?
8 Q I r ad that somewhere.
9 MS. FERKIN: Mr. Love, we would appreciate a 10 direct reference. ,
jj MR. LOVE: All right. Excuse me one second.
12 (Pause.)
13 On page 4, Question No. 13. " Turning to vehicle 34 arriving portion of the flow chart, c.an you describe how 15 y u arrived at these figures?"
16 "Yes. We travel these routes regularly with our j7 buses and vans when moving from one facility to another and 18 we us d What we considered to be the most reasonable figure.
j9 If we would have gradual entry into an emergency sitaution, 20 w would have already had buses on site at Graterford. On 21 the other hand, if we have a rapidly developing incident, 22 it may take betwoon one to three hours for the bus companies 23 to get their vehicles to the support facilities and then 24 travel to Gratorford."
hrd n.porteri, w.
25 D es that refresh your recollection?
20,806 S m 5-9 1 THE WITNESS: Yes.
2 BY MR. LOVE:
3 Q So when you say 190 miles, that they are coming 4 from as far as 190 miles away, would it be safe to assume 5 then that the total travel distance would be in excess of 6 190 miles 11: that they have a stop to make at a supporting 7 institution?
8 A Not to my knowledge.
9 Q And can you explain that?
10 A Because the vehicles are arranged for at the 11 support institutions, and I don't have direct authority over 12 that and how that is done. But to my knowledge, the time
^) 13 that I am informing you of and the distance that I am informing 14 you of is the distance and time that we would use.
15 0 I am not sure I understand. Are you saying that 16 bus companies are near support institutions?
17 A That is correct.
18 0 But they would first have to stop at that support 19 institution; is that correct?
20 A That depends on the specific situation. I believe 21 that there are some instances when the bus company drivers 22 would drive the buses and there may be some situations where 23 correctional personnel would drive the buses.
24 0 But in either instance they would have to stop A er:1 Reporters, Inc.
25 at the support institution prior to coming to Graterford;
20,807 im 5-10 1 is that correct?
2 A I don't know that. I am not involved in that 3 part of the plan.
4 0 I see. Then I take it you have no idea how long
-5 _they would also be stopping at:these support institutions?
^
6 A I have no direct knowledge of that.
7 0 Well then how can you say that the buses will be 8 there within two to four ho'urs?
9 A Decauco I am made aware of how long it takes us 10 once we call for the buses.to get there. I have been given 11 that information.
12 Q But tha't does-not take into consideration a stop 13 at the support institution?
14 A I' don't know if it does or it doesn't.
15 0 Who does?
16 A The support institution superintendent I would 17 imagine.
18 0 I see. Itave you taken into' consideration in this 19 two to four hour estimate the time that it would take to 20 contact the individual drivers and for the individual drivers i 21 to get to the buses? Was that calculated into this two to four 22 hour time frame?
23 A Yes, it is.
24 Q And how ,ong is that estimated to be?
- heti n. pore.ri, i=.
25 A I didn't break that down.
^
20,808 r,S 5-11 i g. .I_see.
. That is just all----
h N%s '
2 AI Again,-that is support institution functions.
-i.
3 -Q Now you state thatfit is four'to six hours under 4
adverse conditions. . What..do you mean by adverse conditions?
5 A Heavy snows.
u
- 6 Q -So we~are talking: weather when we talk about 7 adverse conditions?
8 A Yes.-
9 Q And'how heavy a snow has been contemplated by you 10 in this situation?
Il lA Oh, anything that we'have traveled.q,We have 12 traveled'y' ear'round.
13
'MR.' LOVE: ' I .have nothing: further-with respect I4 to that' issue.
15 I would now'like to move on to the off-duty 16 personnel called within one to two hours and in adverse condi-I7 tions two to three hours; is that correct?
18 A Yes.
I9 Q
. What factors did you utilize in coming up'with 20 the one to two-hour estimate?
' 21-A We periodically run tests of our emergency plan, 22 and when we do we activate our call-in system. It is based 23 upon our experiences ~with those tests as well as with former 24 6 emergencies when people come to the institution.
til Repoeters, Inc.
25 In actuality people start arriving at the institutior t
20,809 S 5 12 1 almost immediately.
2 O Now when you have tested this call-up system, was 3 there ever a sLmultaneous evacuation of the general public 4 going on at the same time?
5 A No.
6 Q Now when you have utilized this call-up system 7 for past emergency situations Graterford, was there ever 8 a simultaneous evacuation of the general public going on at 9 the-same time?
10 A No.
- 11 Q Could you explain the call-up system and how it 12 works?
13 A We have kind of a pyramid structure, and there
/)
14 is'a list of personnel that are called by the shift commander 15 or whoever is designated to call from the facility itself.
16 They in turn call "X" number of other people and it is almost 17 like a chain letter and eventually everyone is contacted ---
18 JUDGE HOYT: Just a moment, Mr. Love.
19 Go ahead, Ms. Forkin.
20 MS. FERKIN: Well, I think the Board may be 21 anticipating an objection I might have made on one or two 22 questions down the road. I was going to object based on 23 Mr. Love 's further questioning on this area. I was thinking 24 of objecting that it was outside the scope of the admitted A nrol Reporters, Inc. >
25 t'. contention.
i J
t
20,810 Sim:5-13 1 JUDGE HOYT: Yes, I think you are correct, O 2 Ms. Forkin.
3 Mr. Love, I think that was one of the other a bases that the Board in.its order of June 12th had rejected.
5 .I am recalling again for you the the basis of the litigation 6 before this Board today, and indeed this week. The estimated 7 timo of evacuation bases, and that is bases "e", and this 8 deals with the methodology of the computation for that time, 9 and I don't believe that this is germane to that issue.
10 MR. LOVE: If I may respond, Your Honor.
11 JUDGE HOYT: Yes.
12 MR. LOVE: ft is my understanding that Superin-
- 13 tendent Zimmerman has indicated in his methodology regarding a
14 the overall estimated time of evactuation that off-duty 15 personnel can be called and will arrive within one to two 16 hours. This is what my questions pertain to.
17 JUDGE HOYT: Do you have anything further, 18 Ms. Forkin:
19 MS. FERKIN: Your Honor, I did not object 20 initially because Mr. Love simply asked for an explanation 21 of the call-up systee. If the question had gone much.beyond 22 that, yes, I believe I would have entered an objection, but 23 the initial question I did not find objectionable.
24 JUDGE HOYT: All right.
A eral Reporters, Inc.
25 Anything from any of the other parties?
20,811 gg .5 (No response.)
(,, 3 JUDGE HOYT: The objection is sustained.
2
.MR. LOVE: I am not sure I recall the question that was objected to.
Could you. read that back?
5 (The question was read back by the reporter.)
6 BY MR. LOVE: '
7 +
O Will the call-up system rely upon the commercial
.8 phone lines?
9 MS. FERKIN: Now I am going to object, Your Honor.
,I think we.are now delving into the subject matter of a' contention that was previously denied.
- JUDGE HOYT: Mr. Love, I think Ms. Ferkin is
() '
correct.in that, and you have been told this a number of 14 times in both the conferences that we had and I believe 15 elsewhere in this record.
16 The objection is sustained.
17 MR. LOVE: Your Honor, I understand that I.had 18 a prior contention dealing with the call-up system. However, Superintendent Zimmerman has stated that he can get his:
-personnel to the prison within one to two hours and he is relying upon a call-up system to do that, and I do not under-stand why I am not allowed to question him regarding the how and the factors that he has utilized in comingeto this 24 II R* Porters, Inc.
decision. I think it is relevant to this issue.
25
20,812 Sita. 5-15 JUDGE HOYT: Mr. Love, the objection has been
,,:. g sustained.
2 3
MR. LOVE: Please note my objection for the 4
record.
3 OM: haceed.
5 6
BY MR. LOVE:
7 0 Now Superintendent Zimmerman, as you stated-earlier with respect- to the vehicles entering the EPZ. that 8
9 you did not take into consideration the public's evacuation, 10 tw uld your answer be the same with respect to the mobilization ij of the' manpower? I will rephrase that if you want me to.
12 A .Maybe I had better clarify. The public evacuation 13 was ---
j4 JUDGE HOYT:' Just a moment, Mr. Zimmerman. There 15 is no question _before'you.
16 Now, Mr. Love, if you have a question, you may
- j7 ask it. The witness is not. going to volunteer answers for 18 you.
j9 MR. LOVE: I will gladly rephrase the question.
20 JUDGE HOYT: All right. Go ahead.
21 BY MR. LOVE:
22 0 Does your estimate of one to two hours to 23 m bilize the off-duty personnel take into consideration the i
24 corresponding evacuation of the general public?
rtl Reporters, Inc.
25 MR. CONNER: I object to that. There is no
20,813 5-16 1 foundation as to why one would affect the other, if at all.
2 JUDGE HOYT: Do you want to respond, Mr. Love?
3 MR. LOVE: I think that common sense dictates 4 that if you are going to bring in 700 individuals to the 5 State Correctional Institute at Graterford and you are going 6 to hava an evacuation of the general public within a 10-mile 7 radius of the nuclear power plant, that they are indeed 8 relevant to each other. I think there is a potential for 9 on the highways and I think there is a potential for 10 accidents on the highways ---
11 JUDGE HOYT: Mr. Love, this is not a jury trial.
12 MR. LOVE: You asked me if I had a comment.
^
- )
13 JUDGE HOYT: I asked you for a comment pertinent v
14 to the issue, but not for a speech.
15 MR. LOVE: Fine.
16 JUDGE HOYT: Now if you want to have any legal 17 arguments, you may do so. However, the objection by 18 Mr. Conner was that you had not laid the foundation, and I 19 think perhaps you should lay the foundation for your question.
20 MR. LOVE: All right.
21 JUDGE HOYT: Go ahead.
22 MR. LOVE: I will attempt to.
23 JUDGE HOYT: Very well.
24 BY MR. LOVE:
A er;l Reporters, Inc.
25 Q Superintendent Zimmerman, who would give you the
20,814 Sim 5-17 1 order if you were going to evacuate the State correctional
/ T-V 2 Institute at Graterford?
3 A -I would get my direction from the Commissioner 4 of Corrections.
5 0 And am I correct in assuming that an evacuation 6 from Graterford would also.be-in conjunction with an evacuation 7 of everyone in the area?
8 A I am not sure I know that. I don't know. I am
- 9. not.sure I can answer that question.
10 0 So you are sayinguthat there is a chance that 11 Graterford may be evacuated,.whereas the general public would i
12 not; is that correct?
{} 13 A I don't know that. I am responsible for Graterford, 14 and I got the order to evacuate Graterford, that is what I 15 would effect.
16 MR. LOVE: Your Honor, to save time and avoid 17 confusion, it is my understanding that during prior discussions 18 on these issues that there would be no evacuation of Graterford 19 unless there was an evacuation of the public and vice versa.
20 JUDGE HOYT: Mr. Love, your preparati6n of your 21 case, I take it, is perhaps missing some links, but it is not 22 going to.be done at this hearing. If you don't-know these 23 things, there is not much I can do to help you. You have been 24 given ample time for discovery and ---
rd Reporters, Inc.
25 MR. LOVE: I really haven't been given ample time,
20,815
"'7 5-18 1 Your Honor.
2 JUDGE HOYT: Mr. Love, the Board finds that you 3 have been given ample time. Now proceed.
4 MR. LOVE: And the Code of Federal Regulations 5 just ---
6 JUDGE IIOYT: Mr. Love, proceed.to your question, 7 and if you want to lay your foundation, go ahead.
8 BY MR. LOVE:
9 Q Superintendent Zimmerman, are you saying that 10 you don't anticipate a public evacuation when you are 11 evacuating the prison?
12 A No, I am not saying that.
- 13 Q Do you anticipate an evacuation?
14 A Probably, yes.
15 0 I see. So have you taken that into account when 16 you made up your flow chart and in particular the events that 17 will have to occur outside the institution that may be 18 affected by such an evacuation?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Andyou don't believe that they will have any 21 bearing upon the manpower mobilization or the vehicle 22 entry?
23 A I believe because of the way we have developed 24 our plan that it can work efficiently and effectively.
A eril Reporters, Inc.
25 Q What do you base that belief on?
L
20,816 Sim 5-19 1 A Well, I think I am getting into an area that I 2 can't really discuss such as routes, how they were chosen and 3 specifics of call-ins and things of this nature.
4 Q I don't want to get into that either. It is just 5 that regardless of what route will be taken, there will 6 obviously be people evacuating; is that not correct?
7 A Not necessarily.
8 Q What do you mean by that?
9 A Well, there are time frames involved, and there 10 are areas where our traffic is staggered with other traffic, 11 and all of this has been taken into account. Does that answer 12 your question?
13 Q By whom?
14 A By the developers of the plan.
15 Q Other than yourself?
16 A That is correct.
17 Q Fine. Thank you.
18 Moving on to the section marked Vehicle Loading 19 Teams, just a few points of clarification on this.
20 Will the vehicle loading teams, you state they 21 will be assembled in one hour. Is that mutually exclusive 22 of the evacuation section that states 25 minutes for 23 securing and loading one man per minute. Are those functions 24 separate or would they be going on correspondingly?
A er;l Reporters, Inc.
25 A Could you repeat that. I am not sure that I
20,817 u rstand your quesdon.
1 W5-20 2 Q You say " Vehicle loading teams assemble at five 3
1 ading sites in one hour," and on the other side you say 4
" Evacuation 200 inmates Class 4 and 5 one minute per man."
I just want to understand what tasks are occurring simultaneously and which ones are not, and I am asking if 6
7 you could explain these'two events and how you foresee these g events occurring?
A The vehicle loading teams are assembled prior to 9
10 the loading of the inmates themselves. They are already in jj place. They are occurring simultaneously with the population count following lock-down.
12 Q S then they do not occur simultaneously with the
- 13 j4 evacuation of the three classes of inmates; is that correct?
A They are already there then.
15 16 Q I see. All right, thank you.
So these vehicle loading teams, are they the 37 individuals that will be securing and loading the various 18 j9 clases of inmates?
A They are the individuals who will be loading 20 the various classes of inmates.
21 O So they will stay at the loading sites only 22 and they will not go into the cell blocks and secure the 23 24 inmates and move them to the loading sites?
A er;l Reporters, Inc.
25 A We have other means of doing that.
20,818
.,_Shn 5-21 1 Q I see. How many personnel are going to be in t 1 V
2 the loading teams, if you know?
3 MR. OTTO: I would have to object. I mean, this 4 is'into a secure area going into numbers of manpower and' things 5 like that.
s 6 JUDGE HOYT: I believe, Mr. Love, we are getting 7 very close to that point. Is this your last question in that 8 ' area and can you take a ball-park figure on this?
9 MR. LOVE: A ball-park figure would be fine, 10 Your Honor.
11 JUDGE HOYT: Is that agreeable with you, Mr.. Otto?
12 MR. OTTO: Yes, Your Honor.
4 (j v'
13 THE WITNESS: Conld you repeat the question?
14 BY MR. LOVE:
15 0 A ball park figure on'how big the loading 16 teams would be, how many personnel are involved?.
17 JUDGE HOYT: Roughly, Mr. Zimmerman.
18 THE WITNESS: Are we talking total, Mr. Love, 19 for just loading or-for one. bus or what?
end Sim 20
? Joe.fois 21 22
, 23 24 e rti st. porters, Inc.
25 4
_ , , - , - - , - - - , , ,- _ , - , , . = - - , , - - , --w. , . ,--4--,,-- a- = w-
6-1-Jos Wal m 20,819
{')
ss 1 Q Five loading sites. Vehicle loading teams 2 assigned to five loading sites. How many would be assigned 3 to each site?
4 JUDGE HOYT: Mr. Love, I think that is getting 5 to the very heart of what Mr. Otto's objection was.
6 MR. LOVE: This isn't crucial to my case. I 7 will be happy to move on.
8 JUDGE HOYT: Very well.
9 BY MR. LOVE: (Continuing) 10 Q Is it true that the Class I inmates would be 11 loaded prior to anyone else being loaded?
12 A .Did I say that somewhere? I don't think so.
p
(_) 13 I don't think that is necessarily the sequence of events.
14 Q Superintendent Zimmerman, could you explain 15 the crder of sequence that the inmates will leave the 16 institution?
17 A As they are loaded.
18 Q And would I be correct in assuming then whoever 19 gets there first -- whatever vehicle gets there first would 20 be loaded first?
21 A Well, it depends on its destination. We could 22 have various class of inmates being loaded simultaneously, 23 because we do have different areas of the institution for 24 the different class of inmates.
r_ggg __ _ neporiers, inc.
25 Q Then I was incorrect when I stated that the
20,820 6-2-Jo2 Wal
('] I Class 1.
2 A That is why I questioned it, yes.
3 Q Fine,thank you for clarifying that. Now, 4 you state that, for example Class III inmates, there are 5 2,125 Class III inmates.
6 You state one minute per man, five hours ten 7 minutes total. Can you give us a little more information 8 on how you came up with that figure?
9 A Well, we secure inmates every day -- we move 10 inmates every day, and based upon our experience, we put 11 together those figures, and then we simply added together 12 the amount of time it would take for one inmate , for
() 13 2,125 inmates.
14 That is how we came up with those figures.
15 Q Now, when you say the average time for one 16 inmate, what -- time to do what?
17 A To secure him with the appropriate security device .
18 Q So, would that mean go to his cell, open his 19 cell, secure him with the appropriate security device, 20 and then send him to the loading site?
21 I don't understand. My question is this: How 22 -- assuming that I have this correct -- the cell has to be 23 opened. The individual has to be secured, and then the 24 individual has to transported to the loading site, how that nowmm s=. -
25 all can occur in one minute?
6-3-Jon Wal 20,821 j) 1 A I am trying to answer your question without 2 compromising --
3 Q Take your time. .
4 A Information. Privileged information. I refer 5 to it on page 6 of my direct testimony.
6 At the top paragraph. In about the middle, 7 it says: All our staff who would be involved in moving 8 these inmates have been trained in the use of the security 9 equipment, and use it on a regular basis. We designated 10 special teams that go on the blocks.
11 The numbers are determined by thq' size of the 12 blocks and the amount of security needed. The teams
() 13 effectively remove the inmate from his cell, apply the 14 appropriate security device, and see him on his way to the 15 appropriate staging area.
16 The teams can move from cell to cell because 17 . we will have officers running a line from the block that is 18 being evacuated onto Ehe staging area. The inmate will be J
19 directed to go and follow that line of officers so that the 20 inmates in effect will be walking to the staging areas or 21 boarding the busses in a smooth, uninterrupted flow.
22 Q With respect to the last sentence, where in 23 your flow chart is the time frame for that event -- to take 24 it into consideration? In other words, the going from the f_ggg
_ o nepo,sers,Inc.
25 cell to the loading site?
6-4-Jon Wal
{ }- 1 Is that in the one minute?
2 A Yes.
3 Q It is.
4 .A I am using the one minute into the cell secure 5 on the way -- into the cell secure on the way. One minute; 6 one minute; one minute.
7 If it takes him three minutes to walk from 8 the cell to the staging area, then three minutes later that 9 first inmate is ready to board the bus and be staged, and 10 consequently so on down the line.
11 Q Where do you say three minutes in your flow 12 chart?
l.Q ~
ss/ 13 A It is not three minutes, because each minute 14 means each inmate is being secured and sent. So, three 15 minutes later Inmate No. 1 is arriving at the bus, one minute 16 later Inmate No..2, one minute later Inmate No. 3, so, there-17 fore, it is one minute, and the only difference is at the 18 end of the line it will be three minutes later for the last I9 inmate to board the bus than it was for him to leave his 20 cell.
21 Q So you put an extra three minutes on at the 22 end, is that what you are saying?
23 A At one minute per man for one man, I think we 24 just figured in the one minute per man.
Roman. sat 4 25 We didn't count in the three minutes it takes
6-5-Joa Wal 20,823 1 to walk to the area.
m 2 Q Is Ebat a pretty accurate estimate of how long 3 it might take to walk from the end of a cell block to one 4 of these areas?
5 A I just came up with that figure.
6 Q Could you -- after giving it some thought, would 7 you still stick with the three minutes?
8 A I would say it was less.
9 Q With respect to the Class 4 and 5 inmates, you p) indicate 25 minutes total, is that correct?
i
~
II A Yes.
12 Q And you have 200 of those individuals, is that k/ 13 correct?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Are these the least secure persons, or the 16 most -- l 17 A Most responsible individuals, requiring the !
18 least amount of security. i i l 19 Q Now, with respect to the more secure individuals,,
l 20 the Class 1 and 2 inmates, these classification figures, thesel; i
21 are figures that you use throughout the institution on day-22 to-day activities, is that correct?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And these 1 and 2 level inmates would be your al Reporters, Inc.
25 more dangerous inmates, is that correct?
[
20,824 6-6-Jo3 Wal j A Dangerous security risks, escape risks.
2 Disciplinary problems. Administrative custody.
~
3 Q And you anticipate five minutes per man, is 4 that right?
5 A That is correct.
6 Q And how did you get to the two hours and six 7 minutes total on that?
8 A Well, again, we are talking of 125 inmates at 9 five minutes per man, and because of where they are we can 10 be securing them simultaneously.
n They donet have to be individually done.
12 There are separate areas for these inmates , these class of
) 13 inmates.
14 Q Would I be correct in assuming that you have 15 sufficent manpower -- that you have calculated that you have 16 sufficient manpower to conduct the loading of three types of 17 inmates, and also be doing many at a time in all three types 18 of inmates?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And would it be necessary to go beyond use of 21 just correctional officers to achieve these tasks?
22 If all things worked well.
23 A To secure the inmates?
24 Q Yeah.
el Reporters, Inc.
25 A No.
6-7-Joe Wal 20,825
- 1 Q So, the correctional staff could do that?
2 A Yes.
3 0 What is the figure that you used, the population 4 number that you used to develop this flow chart?
5 A It looks like 2,450, 6 Q What is the current population today?
7 A I believe today we are at 2,500 -- right around 8 2,500.
9 Q Is it true that the population has been increasing 10 significantly since you took over the job? !
11 A I don't know what you mean by significantly.
12 I Our population has been climbing. i
) 13 Q And do you have any approximate figures on how 14 fast it has been climbing?
15 A I think about ten percent. '
16 Q Is this figure ten percent per year?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And is it anticipated that that figure would 19 continue? !
l 20 A Actually, we are anticipating it tapering 21 off. j 22 Q I believe I am up to P-5, is that corre ct?
23 JUDGE HOYT: I don't know, Mr. Love. We have i 24 erd Reporters, Inc.
three -- Graterford Inmates Exhibit 3 for identification 25 and the report of the panel.
I
6-8-Jon Wal 20,826 i MR. LOVE: So my July 8th letter that was v.. '
2 mysteriously lost in the mail, I think, was four.
3 JUDGE HOYT: Do you want that marked --
4 MR. LOVE: Four, yeah.
5 JUDGE HOYT: It is marked merely as an Exhibit, 6 Mr. Love. It is not -- this witness can't sponsor that.
7 I will be happy to mark it for you if that is what you want 8 to do.
9 MR. LOVE: Correct.
10 JUDGE HOYT: Correct, what, sir? l
{
11 MR. LOVE: I would like it marked.
12 JUDGE HOYT: Thank you. Correct me if I am
(_,) 13 wrong, then, it is Graterford Exhibit 4 for identification, 14 which is the letter purportedly from you to Mr. Otto. There 15 is no five, is there? As far as I know.
xx INDEX 16 (Above referenced document :
17 is marked Graberford Exhibit No. 4 18 for identification.)
19 MR. OTTO: If I may, Judge Hoyt, on the second !
I 20 Page of the letter marked as 4 for identification, the date 21 at the top of the letter is July 9th rather than July 8th, 22 1985.
23 JUDGE HOYT: That is on the second sheet, Mr. l 24 Otto. The first sheet has July 8th. I don't know whether er j Reporters, Inc.
25 it is July 8th or July 9th, but the first sheet has July 8th
20,827 B-9-Joa Wal 1 on it.
2 MR. OTTO: It may be in my office today.
3 MR. HASSELL: May I inquire, please, for 4 purposes of clarification of the record, Judge Hoyt.
5 JUDGE HOYT: Surely.
6 MR. HASSELL: I am not sure what Graterford 7 Inmates Exhibit No. 4 consists of. Is it a two pages, or 8 one page?
9 JUDGE HOYT: The document submitted to me that 10 I have marked for identification as Graba: ford Exhibit No. 4 l 11 is two pages, a letter purported from Mr. Love to Mr. Theodore l 12 G. Otto, III, Esquire, on page 1, dated July 8th 1985; on j i
13 page two, dated July 9th, 1985. .
I 14 The copy that I have before me is not signed 15 and it is a copy of this letter on page 2-CC to Zeri Ferkin, '
16 Esquire.
i 17 MR. HASSELL: Thank you, Judge Hoyt. !
i Your Honor, for the record I would !
18 MS. FERKIN:
19 note that as the letter on page 2-CC to me, I have not ;
I 20 received a copy of this letter.
21 JUDGE HOYT: That was my question to you, also, 22 when I realize that CC had been on there, Ms. Ferkin. Thank 23 you.
{
24 All right, Mr. Love, are you ready to proceed? l
-; nnmem..r=. l 25 Let me inquire of you at this point how much more cross
. - _ - - - - =_ . -_ -
6-10-Joe Wal 20,828 1 examination of this witness do you have?
(')T
\-
t 2 MR. LOVE: Very little.
3 JUDGE HOYT: All right, we would like to 4 schedule an afternoon break for purposes of -- various 5 purposes. I will put it that way.
6 MR. LOVE: Two more issues to cover and we will 7 be'.through. Should I continue?
8 JUDGE HOYT: Two more issues. Do you anticipate 9 that they will be very long?
r' 10 MR. LOVE: No.
11 JUDGE HOYT: Fine. Let's give it a try. Go 12 ahead.
r 13 BY MR. LOVE: (Continuing) 14 Q I refer to your -- what has been marked P-5, 15 A Strategy to Alleviate Overcrowding in Pennsylvania's Prisons 16 and Jails. Rqort of the Pennsylvania Commission on Crime 17 and Delinquency's Prison and Jail Overcrowding Task Force.
18 Once again, I have condensed this document which 19 I do have;for anyone who wants to inspect the entire document, 20 I have it available.
21 . I have condensed it to the relevant portions Chat 22 I would like Superintendent Zimmerman to discuss.
23 JUDGE HOYT: I would like the Superintendent to 4
24 have before him the original, Mr. Love, if you are going to e n.ponen.inc.
25 have him testify from the document.
6-ll-Jon Wal 20,829
()
1 MR. LOVE: Certainly.
2 (Mr. Love hands document to the witness.)
3 BY MR. LOVE: (Continuing) 4 Q Now --
5 JUDGE HOYT: I would like for the record.to 6 also reflect that the document has been shown to counsel for 7 the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania prior to being handed to the
- 8 witness.
9 BY MR. LOVE: (Continuing) 10 Q Now, with recpect to page 36, and a corresponding 11 . chart on page 34, states: Admissions to the Department rose 12 38 percent in 1979 to 1983.
'T. 13 Based upon your observations during that period, 14 would you say that is a correct figure?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And the chart on page 2, which indicates the 17 future -- Department of Corrections Present and Projected 18 Population and Capacity, which states approximately on 12/83 19 there was slightly under ten thousand individuals; 12/84, 20 there was approximately ten thousand individuals within the 21 Pennsylvania State System; 12/85 going up to -- almost eleven 22 thousand, and then 12/86 going up almost to twelve thousand, 23 and then 12/87 going up maybe thirteen-five.
24 Would that -- do you agree with those figures?
J Reporters, Inc.
25 A The population or the capacity figures?
12-Joe Wal 20,830
(~)
\_/
1 Q The population figures. '
2 A The population figures --
3 Q Oh, excuse me. I was -- I stand corrected. I 4 was referring to the capacity figures. Population figures, 5 roughly 12/83, twelve thousand; 12/84, maybe twelve-fif ty; 6 12/85, a little over fourteen; 12/86, perhaps fifteen, 7 -- would that be roughly accurate of the population growth 8 in the State system?
9 A The population growth as far as projections go, 10 yes.
11 Q And would it be safe to say that a similar 12 growth would occur at Graterford?
'( ) 13 A No.
14 Q Would it be safe to say that the growth at 15 Graterford is anticipated to be more than that?
16 A No.
j 17 Q Isn't it now true that you have construction
! l 18 underway for an additional five hundred cell facility?
19 A Yes.
l 20 Q When is that going to be opened?
l 21 A It is scheduled to be opened in 1988.
t l
l 22 Q And what would the population at Graterford 23 be according to your figures around that point in time?
24 A We estim,1te that it would be pretty close to el Reporters, Inc.
25 where we are now, maybe a little bit more.
-, __ . _ _ , _ . _ - . _ _ _= _ _ . , _ . . ,. . _ . . _ . . . - _ _ _ .
6-13-Jos Wal 20,831 j ) 1 O You do not anticipate any further increases 2 in the population of Graterford at this date?
3 A With the support of Department of Corrections, 4 and the Commissioner's Office, we are attempting to keep the 5 Graterford population at minimal growth levels.
6 Q Do you personally have any control over that 7 population?
8 A Only insofar as I can appeal to the Commissioner's 9 Office for assistance if I feel we are getting too crowded, 10 and if he has someway of helping he does.
II Q Is it not true that as the Eastern Diagnostic 12 Center for Pennsylvania, you are obligated to accept everyone n)
(_ 13 sentenced to the State System in the Eastern Region of this 14 State?
15 A We must accept them. If we are too crowded, we i
16 can send them to the other diagnostic centers, which we have I 17 done and are doing. ,
18 Q So, then, you have no problems with the fact I9 that your plan may become outmoded in the future due to 20 population increases. You don' t think this is a possibility, ,
21 is that what you are saying?
22 A Even with the population growth, our staff 23 and support facilities grows accordingly.
ll 24 Al . L.) Reporters, Inc. Q The support --- could you say that again?
25 A I say as numbers increase, so the support
6-14-Joe Wal 20,832 1 facilities increase.
2 O Correspondingly?
3 A Yes.
End 6. 4 Sue,Wal fols.
5
'6 7
8 9
~0 1 11 12
- O 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 ;
1 a-,. 24 l 25
20,833 7-1-SueWall Q Are you stating that when that new five hundred 2 cell. facility opens that you will just stop double-celling?
3 A That's what I'm looking forward to.
4 Q All right. One more --
5 MR. CONNER: Could we make a technical objection?
6 Could we have some identification, for the sake of the record, 7 as to what the Pennsylvania Commission on Crime and --
8 Delinquencies, Prison and Jail Overcrowing Task Force is?
9 I assume that it is either a legislative committee 10 or an arm of the Bureau of Corrections. But the record 11 doesn't show, and I think perhaps it might be weli to do it 12 here.
() 13 JUDGE HOYT: I anticipate that the counsel for 14 the Commonwealth is probably going to pick up on that, Mr.
15 Conner. If not, they will now.
16 (Laughter.)
17 Go ahead, Mr. Love.
18 BY MR. LOVE: (Continuing) 19 Q One final point I would like to cover. Let me 20 find it specifically in your testimony here. Okay. On 21 Question Number 12, it states: Would the inmates have any 22 other notice regarding the evacuation?
23 You state in your answer: Yes. We plan to issue 24 an addendum to the inmate handbook, which is given to every as Reporwes,Inc.
25 inmate. The addendum will tell the inmates what to do to help
20,834
f-2-SueWall in the evacuation.
2 Could you expand on that?
3 A Basically, we are going to give information in the 4 inmate handbook, which will alert them to the fact that we 5 also have an emergency evacuation plan as well as our routine 6 fire drills, and things of this nature to help protect them 7 in the event of an emergency.
8 Q And when did you come up with this idea?
9 A Very recently.
10 Q How recently?
11 A Last few weeks.
12 Q And, you say "we." Who do you mean by "we?"
() 13 A I think it was in discussion with the Department 1-4 and with our own people on emergency planning.
15 Q I see. And why was this not contemplated earlier?
16 MS. FERKIN: Objection. Your Honor, I fail to see 17 the relevance of this line of questioning.
18 JUDGE HOYT: I think the last question, Mr. Love, 19 is --
20 MR. LOVE: I -- can I -- if I may be permitted to 21 respond.
22 ' JUDGE HOYT: Very well. Respond, if you wish.
l 23 MR. LOVE: It's my belief that this particular l 24 addendum, which I have never heard anything about during all J Rmorwes, W.
l l 25 the prior discussions we've had, has been made in response to i
20,835
, ~~7-3-SueWI some statements that my expert made and will testify as to t
v 2 tomorrow. And that's why I'm trying to ascertain whether 3 this was made in response to his statements or whether this 4 was some kind of inaependent idea that they came up with.
5 MR. CONNER: Objection. Irfc]evant.
6 JUDGE HOYT: All right, Mr. Conner. Let Mr. Otto 7 respond. All right, Mr. Otto, go ahead.
8 MR. OTTO: All through the discussions we've had 9
on this plan we have been talking about prior notifications 10 and things like that taking place. And I think this is just 11 another one of the ways we can notify the inmates.
12 JUDGE HOYT: Would I be correct in assuming, Mr.
) 13 Otto, that this is part of the continuing dynamic growth of 14 the evacuation plan in general?
15 MR. OTTO: That's a fair statement, I suppose. ,
16 JUDGE HOYT: Thank you. All right, Mr. Love.
17 MR. LOVE: I will move on, then.
18 BY MR. LOVE: (Continuing) 19 Q Do you have a copy of the addendum?
20 A No.
21 Q Could you tell us what will, in fact, be included 22 or if you have thought about it?
23 A I can eventually produce a copy. I don't have a
(.)d Reporters, Inc.
Acad 24 copy with me.
25 Q Okay. Could you do that?
I
20,836 17-4-SueW 1 A Yes.
2 MR. LOVE: I have nothing further of this witness.
3 JUDGE HOYT: Before we have any redirect, we will 4 take a fifteen minute recess. Will that be sufficient also 5 for you to prepare your redirect?
6 MR. HASSELL: Before redirect begins, I must 7 submit I do have a few clarifying questions for cross. I 8 could go forward with it now or after the break, whatever 9 the Board's desire is.
10 JUDGE HOYT: I think we will allow that to go 11 forward after the break, Mr. Hassell.
12 MR. HASSELL: That's fine.
13 JUDGE HOYT: And there was no intention of the 14 Board to cut you out of the question plan.
15 Very well. We will recess for fifteen minutes.
16 (Whereupon, a recess is taken at 3:31 p.m.,
17 to reconvene at 3:55 p.m., this same day.)
I 18 JUDGE HOYT: All right. The hearing will come to 19 order. Let the record reflect that the parties to the 20 hearing have all returned.
21 The witness has again taken his place on the 22 witness stand. Sir, I will remind you that you had taken 23 an oath here, Mr. Zimmerman, in this courtroom earlier. You 24 are still under that oath.
eer:j Reporters, Inc.
Ace _
25 WITNESS ZIMMERMAN: Yes, ma'am.
p 20,837 t\7-5-SueW j JUDGE H0YT: Mr. Love, you had completed your D
2 cross-eiamination at the end of the first session this A ., 3 afternoon, and I~ understand Mr. Hassell has some questions.
4 Do you anticipate any, Mr. Conner?
5 MR.. CONNER: We have one clarifying question that s
y 6 somebody else will probably ask.
7 JUDGE HOYT: Well, if it isn't asked then let us 8 ,'know at that time.
9 MR. CONNER: Yeah.
4 10 JUDGE HOYT: Mr. Hassell, please proceed.
i 11 MR. IIASSELL: Thank you, Judge Hoyt.
A y
j 12 CROS.S EXAMINATION 1 "s BY MR. HASSELL:
p.{e,IDEXX 13 la Q Good afternoon, Mr. Zimmerman. My name is Mr.
15 Hassell, counsel for NRC staff.
M 16 Would you turn to Se flow chart that is attached 17 to your prefiled testirOt i ,
i 18 A Yes.
, 19 Q As I understand your testimony in response to Mr.
20 Love's cross, you indicated that two thousand four hundred 21 .and fifty inmates was the population estimate that you relied L 22 on in developing the flow chart- is that correct?
- 23 A Yes.
24 0 I believe you also testified that the current J neporwn, inc. ,
+
25 population of the State Correctional Institution at Graterford T
F v . +
20,838
("37-6-SueW 't is twenty-five hundred inmates; is that correct?
-Q 2 A Approximately, yes.
3 0 With respect to that difference in population, 4 would that have any effect on your current evacuation time 5 estimate of eight to ten hours?
6 A No. It wouldn't.
7 Q Why not?
8 A The small number of inmates we are speaking of 9 it just would mean an extra vehicle.
10 Q I believe you were asked some questions with 11 respect to the Class 3 inmates that show up on your flow 12 chart; specifically, I believe you were asked some.questitns I) 13 concerning whether you included the time for the inmates to 14 walk to the staging area.
. 15 Do you recall that line of questioning, Mr.
16 Zimmerman?
17 A Yes, I do.
18 O And I believe it was your testimony that you did 19 not include the time for the inmates to walk to the staging 20 area with respect to the Class 3 inmates; is that correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Would you please explain what, if anything, would 23 happen with respect to your time estimate if, in fact, that 24 -time was included?
- 2 Reporters, Inc.
- 25 A At most, as I indicated earlier, it may go up by p-
20,839
7- 7-S ueW l about three minutes. And in three minutes time, one can (V
2 walk anywhere in the institution. And since this is all 3 being done'very sequentially, the only difference would be 4 that the last man,.once he secured, may arrive at the bus 5 three minutes later than we had originally estimated.
6 But again this is all being donc simultaneously.
7 .It's not like we have to get one after the other after the
-8 other. So we may be loading three or four or five vehicles 9 at one time.
10 So, it really may have no impact. But at the out-11 side it would have a three minute impact.
12 Q I believe you were also asked some questions with
() 13 respect to your entry concerning off-duty personnel called.
14 Do you see that area on the flow chart?
15 A Yes, I.do.
16 Q Now, with respect to the times that you have there --
17 and I may have missed this -- would you please explain what 18 factors you relied on in developing those times?
19 A Based upon our past experience in testing our 20 emergency call-in plan, we have to call in off-duty personnel 21 for various types of emergency at a maximum security facility 22 such as Graterford. When we tested our call-in system, we 23 were able to tell how many people we had contacted and what 24 amount of time and how long it would take them to come to the d Reporters, Inc.
25 institution.
20,840 7-8-SueWalj And, as I said, in reality whenever we have had x
2 an emergency situation and called people in, they began ar-3 riving almost immediately because of their various locations, 4 some within a matter of a mile of the institution, two people 5 all the way within Philadelphia and other areas.
6 Q Does the off-duty personnel called, would that 7 involve the maximum number that are needed to evacuate the 8 full facility?
9 A No. The majority of the people needed to evacuate 10 would already be on site, depending on the time of day.
11 For example, if it occurred during the middle of 12 the working day we have, I would guess, around three hundred s
i 13 PeoP l e on site at the present time.
14 Ind at various other times, depending on the 15 shift, it would involve either more or less people.
16 MR. HASSELL: If it's not a security concern, Mr.
17 Otto, feel free to raise this as an objection if there is a 1
18 problem.
19 BY MR. HASSELL: (Continuing) 20 0 Could you give a rough estimate of how many ad-21 ditional personnel would have to be called in an off-duty l 22 status in order to evacuate all of the prisoners?
23 (Pause.)
24 Mr. Zimmerman, do you believe that that's --
eral Reporters, Inc.
25 JUDGE HOYT: Just a moment, Mr. Hassell. Hold
20,841 4
~
.( \7-9-SueWaB your answer for a moment, Mr. Zimmerman. Mr. Otto is think-V 2 ing.
3 MR. OTTO: Well, I don't mean to hold up the 4 wheels of justice but initially Superintendent iZimmerman 5 testified that it would depend on the time of day as to the 6 numbers of officers that would need to be called in. And 7 maybe if he could respond in a -- I don't want to say in a 8 vague way, but in a way that's not entirely specific, that 9 would be appropriate.
10 MR. HASSELL: Well, as I recall the question, 11 that's why I framed it in terms of the maximum number. I 12 don't want him to tie it down to a particular shift. I 13 just want to know in the situation where you contemplate 14 calling the maximum number -- you don't have to say when 15 .that is even -- approximately how many off-duty personnel 16 would that involve?
17 MR. OTTO: We would have no objection to that.
18 JUDGE HOYT: You understand, Mr. Zimmerman?
l l 19 WITNESS ZIMMERMAN: Yes. You want a ballpark l-l 20 figure for the --
21 JUDGE HOYT: I think those are the magic words.
22 WITNESS ZIMMERMAN: -- maximum amount of people 23 that might have to be called in for a site evacuation of 24 Graterford?
- TJ Rwormes, lx, 25 BY MR. HASSELL
- (Continuing)
20,842 (3.7-10-SueWql Q That's correct.
V 2 A Okay. I would give you ballpark figure of 3 three hundred people. And that would be the absolute maximum.
4 Q Okay. I would like to take you back to your 5 testimony concerning I.believe two prior incidents that Mr.
6 Love referred to in his cross-examination, one that took 7 place in September of 1983 and the other in February of 1984 e
i 8 where you were asked questions about the lock-down time.
9 Do you recall that area of inquiry?
10 A Yes, I do.
11 Q Would you please explain what factors would be 4
12 different that would lead you to conclude that the thirty
) 13 minute time estimate that you are allowing for lock-down is 14 reasonable?
15 A Yes. During those incidents, there was confusion 16 throughout the institution, and whenever we have had a lock-17 down for other reasons -- and we do have them periodically --
18 especially when there is something that the inmates recognize 19 as something for their own benefit, they are cooperative and l
20 go right along with whatever direction is given because they 21 recognize it's the best way to function and operate in order 22 to effect the goals of the plan.
23 Q Is that the only factor? I'm trying to clarify an 24 area of testimony that I'm not sure frankly is clear in my 9 Reporters, Inc.
! 25 mind. I believe you also mentioned something about generators.
r L
20,843 g g-ll-SueWall or backup lights.
2 . A Well, as I said, at those times. Graterford now 3 has backup emergency lighting. When we had those power 4 failures we not only didn't have any backup emergency light-5 ing and were put into total blackness causing confusion 6 throughout the institution among both staff and inmates, but 7 we had never planned for a power total blackout.
8 And consequently, we dealt with it as best we 9 could. And every time we had one the Maintenance Department 10 assured us it could never happen again. And finally after Il they assured us for the third time it happened again, we 12 made a decision that we had to get emergency backup lighting,
) 13 and we did.
14 So, they said it still can't happen again. But 15 we do have emergency backup lighting that no matter what l
l 16 happens those lights come on now. I I
17 Q Does that also mean that you may have in place --l l
18 or have you established specific procedures for a total blackodt 19 if that were to occur, however unlikely? l l
20 A That's something that we incorporated into our i 21 emergency plan with backup help based upon our experience 22 at those two -- three occasions.
j 23 MR. HASSELL: I have no further questions.
24 JUDGE HOYT:
! Did you get your question answered, I er:J Reporters, Inc.
25 Mr. Conner?
20,844
(",-12-SueWall MR. CONNER: No.
U 2 JUDGE HOYT: All right. Go ahead and ask it 3 now.
4 CROSS EXAMINATION 5 BY MR. CONNER:
INDEXX 6 Q Mr. Zimmerman, I probably just didn't hear this 7 correctly. You were asked a question by Mr. Love about 8 buses coming in from the other locations and I think you said, 9 or you answered something to the effect that they would use 10 routes which would not hit the areas used by the public in i
11 an evacuation.
12 As I understood that, you simply said they were
() 13 coming in on roads that are not evacuation routes or that 14 they would be using the incoming lane, whereas the evacuations 15 would be in the outgoing lane.
>- 16 But I wasn' t sure what you meant, or if you meant 17 something else.
A 18 A That's part of what I meant. The entire evacua-19 tion plan was done in conjunction with PEMA, and they were 20 responsible for coordinating to be sure that we would not 21 interfere with one another, the Graterford population with 22 the general population.
23 And that's the way it has been drawn up.
24 Q Then, if I understood, you meant to say then 2 Reporters, Inc.
25 that the incoming buses would not be interfered with by outgoing
20,845 l traffic?
()l3-SueWal 2 A That's , correct.
3 MR. CONNER: Okay. That's all I have.
4 JUDGE HOYT: All right. Mr. Hirsch, you have 5 no questions?
6 MR. HIRSCH: No.
7 JUDGE HOYT: Ms. Ferkin, are you and Mr. Otto 3 ..
8 ready for your rebuttal, redirect I guess?
L 9 MR. OTTO: Actually, we've been very lucky i 10 in that the other' parties have done most of what we were II going to do.
12 I have one area where I would like to just 13 clear up Superintendent Zimmerman's testimony.
I INDEXXX - I4 REDIRECT EXAMINATION f 15 BY MR. OTTO:
10 That is with regards to the two to four hour Q ,
f
! 17 estimate for the vehicles arriving-that you used on the flow 18 chart. Could you briefly discuss and hopefully clarify 19 for the record how that figure was arrived at and what it l
20 is based on?
21 A It is based upon our experience in travelling j
22 to the various facilities on a regular basis under all types 23 of conditions throughout the years.
24 And it was arrived at using our experience in l
J Reporters, Inc.
25 travelling to those facilities, both to and from, with vans,
e 20,846 14-SueWall with buses and with various transport vehicles.
2 Q Now, in prior filings with this Commission there 3 were estimates of one to three hours provided that that would 4 be the time it would take for the bus providers to provide 5 the buses to our support institutions.
6 That two to four hour figure there, does that 7 include the one to three hours estimated to get the buses 8 to the support institutions or not?
9 A I've been assured by the Department of Corrections 10 that I would have the buses that I needed in that period of II time. And, as I stated earlier, the arrangements made at 12 the specific support institutions are made by those support m
13 superintendents and coordinated by the Department of Cor-I4 rections.
15 MS. FERKIN: Your Honor, that concludes our i
16 redirect. We do have a point of clarification. I I7 You had asked for some information with respect ,
18 to the document from which Graterford Exhibit 5 is taken.
l 19 I believe, Your Honor, you had asked for an explanation of i
20 the nature of the Pennsylvania Commission on Crime and 2I Delinquencies, Prison and Jail Overcrowding Task Force, 22 the pages of which -- pages of their February 12th,1985 report 23 are included in what has been marked as Graterford Inmates Exhibit 5.
erei Reporters, Inc.
25 Your Honor, I think the easiest way to handle
20,847 gg-15-SueWalb that is simplest to either enter into the record as a 2 Commonwealth exhibit a, if you will, front page of the report 3 which lists the: members of the Commission or I can simply 4 read that page into the record.
5 JUDGE HOYT: Why don't you just introduce it as 6 an exhibit, Ms. Ferkin? And the first page and the reverse 7 of that first page, I should say perhaps the cover page and 8 the reverse of that cover page with the copy of the extract 9 that had been referred to?
END #7 10 Simons flws 11 12
( 't 13 14 15 ,
l 16 i 17 l
18 19 20 21 22 23 24 eral Reporters, Inc.
25
20,848
- l. Sim'8-1 j , MS. FERKIN: Your Honor, I obviously don't have O- 2 sufficient copies of.this document available to distribute now 3 that I can-identify what.I would propose to enter.
4 JUDGE HOYT: - Very well.
5 MS. FERKIN: > It.:is the front page of the facing 6 Page, 'if you will, of a February 12th, 1985 report of the 7 Penw.;ylvania Commission, on Crime and Delinquencies , Prison
~
.8 and Jhil Overcrowding Task Force entitled "A Strategy To 9 Alleviate Overcrowding in Pennsulvania's Prisons and Jails,"
and I would . L.like that' identified and received in evidence as 10 Commonwealth Exhibit, I believe we are on Exhibit 14. -I would jj have to check the record of your prior decision, Your Honor.
g
" * *
- Y "' 8' ' "*
13 C confess I have forgotten what exhibit number you are on as 34 w 11. And in order that it not-be confused with any previous 15 16 xhibits, perhaps we should renumber your exibits and start a new numbering system here for this.
37 Perhaps we can use ___
18 19 MS. FERKIN: Would Exhibit G-1 be acceptable?
20 JUDGE HOYT: G-1 would be acceptable. And we 21 will assign the identification G-I to your, Mr. Love, here 22 which has the connotation here meaning Graterford Inmates.
23 (The document referred to was marked 24 cComonwealth Exhibit No. G-1.for;
.rti n. port.rs, Inc.
X XXXXXXXX 25 ,
identification.).. ,
e 20,849 8-2 1 JUDGE IIOYT: That will be duplicated along the 2 way and delivered to us, Ms. Ferkins.
3 Judge Cole, you had some questions I think.
4 BOARD EXAMINATION 5 BY JUDGE COLE:
6 Q Just one of two questions, Superintendent 7 Zimmerman. It has to do with the emergency backup lighting 8 system.
9 You recall that you testified to having a certain 10 time problem with lock-down during previous power shortages, 11 blackouts at the plant. When was(the emergency backup lighting 12 system installed?
^
13 A As I said earlier, immediately after the last 14 power failure, which was I think February 1984. We began.
15 installing it shortly thereafter and I think it was completed 16 Probably in the fall of that year.
17 Q I think you have already answered my next question 18 when you identified that as the last blackout. Have you had 19 any blackouts since the ---
20 A No. We have had partial power failures, and I 21 wouldn't call them blackouts because the emergency lights 22 came on and everything worked well. We have had blocks 23 thrown into total darkness, what would have formerly have 24 been total darkness, but with the emergency lighting system Aher;l Reporters, Inc.
25 it worked.
l 20,850 I
I
.ekf*'O' Q So you have had power failures but not' blackouts Q. '
2 because of the system you installed to prevent that?
3 A That is correct.
4 Q During these power failures, did'you conduct any 5 lock-downs?
6 A The more recent power failures? Do you mean the 7 ones with-thetemergency lighting system in effect?
l 8 0 Yes, sir.
9 A Yes.'
10 g; How long did it take you to conduct those 11 lock-downs?
12 A Oh, it was a matter of minutes. It was usually I
_ ()~ just isolatedJto one or two blocks, and if the captain decided I#
to lock it up, within 15 minutes the block was locked up.
15
! 0 And the only difference with respect to the power 6
failure was that you had the emergency lighting system intact?
l A Yes, and it was not institution-wide.
l Q What was not institution-wide?
I 19 l A The power failure. A transformer, an area 20 transformer went and threw parts of the institution into 21 blackness, which was actually.not blackness, but into.no power, 22 and then the emergency lights came on, and those parts of 23 the institution were secured.
24 The power failure of February and September, it rtl Reporters, Inc.
25 was a total system-wide failure which originated somewhere
- m. - _-
5
'20,851
- Sim 8-4 j in the power plant and getting hit by lightening.
w!
2 -
JUDGE COLE: All right, sir. Thank you.
3 That is alliI'have.
4 JUDGE lHOYT: Judge Harbous.
5 BOARD EXAMINATION
. INDEXXXXXXX 6 BY JUDGE HARBOUR:
7 Q I-am.sorry.. I am'still not clear on the 8 notification and response time of the bus drivers and the 9 amount of time that it takes to drive to Graterford 10 Institution, and how that fits with your two to four-hours 11 of time. What does your two to four-hours time include?
12 Does it include the notification and response time or just-13 the travel time', or does it include some promise of time 14 that you don't know the basis of?
15 A I know the basis of the travel time to the 16 various institutions because we send and receive vehicles 17 to and from the various institutions.
18 Q And with 190 miles maximum distance, the maximum 19 time for travel time is what?
20 A Four hours.
j 21 0 Thank you. Now if you have more, please 22 continue.
23 A I do not know what arrangements are made at
- 24 those institutions for getting the vehicles to us. I do rol Reporters, Inc.
25 know the Department has said we would have the vehicles
r-20,852 :
1 Sim 8-5
) in that amount of time. l I)
'2 Q Do you know whether the other institutions which 3 would be providing the buses would be notified by the 4 : Department of Corrections in a manner similar to the way 5 that you are notified?.
6 A Yes. As a matter of fact, they would be notified 7 by the Department ~probably way in advance. Unless a 8 bizarre situation happened, we would have those buses?on site 9 before we were even given the order to evacuate.
10 Q Under the most likely circumstances?
11 A That is correct.
12 Q But under the least likely circumstances ---
13 A Then we would have an immediate type of situation.
}
14 Based upon our experience at Camp Hill with TMI, we had 15 buses lined up outside the institution during that whole 16 cmergency in case we would have had to evacuate, and weowould 17 have the same thing at Graterford.
18 JUDGE HARBOUR: All right. Thank you.
19 JUDGE HOYT: I have no qusetions, Mr. Zimmerman.
20 Is there any reason that this witness cannot be 21 excused?
22 MR. OTTO: I have one more redirect question.
23 REDIRECT EXAMINATION INDEXXXXXX 24 BY MR. OTTO:
.rd Reporters, Inc.
25 0 You referred to the power plant. Just for the
20,853 On 8-6 1 Board's clarification and maybe for some of the other parties, 2 which power plant were you just discussing?
3 A I thought about mentioning that. We have a new 4 power plant under construction right now and it will be on 5 line in Janaury of 1986. The old one is pretty old.
6 JUDGE HOYT: Will that be in addition then to the 7 emergency backup that you were talking about?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am, it would be.
9 JUDGE COLE: Are you saying that you generate 10 your own electricity on site?
11 THE WITNESS: We purchase power from PE, but there 12 is some kind of a relay system that it goes through our
'^
13 power plant. Our power plant produces steam for the 14 institution primarily.
15 JUDGE COLE: All right. Thank you.
16 JUDGE HOYT: Well, let me try the question 17 again then. Is there any reason that this witness needs 18 to be retained?
19 (No response. )
20 JUDGE HOYT: All right then. Superintendent 21 Zimmerman, you may be excused, sir. Thank you.
22 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
23 (Witness Zimmerman excused.)
24 JUDGE HOYT: All right, the next witness is A erd Reporters, Inc.
25 Mr. Taylor. Is he here?
7.
20,854 r
~Sim 8-7 MS. FERKIN: The Commonwealth would call 1
L('g,
~
'2 -Mr.' Donald Taylor.
. '3 . JUDGE.HOYT: 'I believe you have taken the oath 4 before, Mr. Taylor,"but.I don't know how long those may be
- 5 good. Let's try again.
6 Whereupon, .
7 DONALD F. TAYLOR
'8 was. called as~a witness-ontbehalf of the Commonwealth of INDEXXXXXXX
_9 Pennsylvania and, having been first duly sworn by Judge 10 Hoyt, was examined and testified as follows:
11 JUDGE HOYT: Please be seated.
12 Are you ready Msu Ferkin?!
~
I I "X- 13 MS.J:FERKIN:.. JYes , I am.
. (_)
'14 JUDGE HOYT: Go ahead.
15 DIRECT EXAMINATION 16 BY MS. FERKIN:
17 O Sir, would you please state your name and 18 business address?- d
. 19 A Donald F. Taylor at the Transportation and Safety 20 Building in Harrisburg, Pennsyvlania.
21 Q Mr. Taylor, what is your position with the 22 Commonwealth of Pennsylvania?
23 A I am the Director of Training and Education for 24 the Pennsylvania Emergency Management Agency.
ti it. port.n, Inc.
25 0 And, Mr. Taylor, have you testified previously
20,855 8-8 1 in this proceeding?
2 A Yes, I have.
3 0 Sir, do you have before you a document entitled 4 " Testimony of Donald F. Taylor for the Commonwealth of 5 Pennsylvania on Graterford Inmates Contention Regarding 6 Training of Civilian Response Personnel"?
7 A Yes, I do.
8 Q And does that document consist of six pages of 9 written testimony and a seven-page attachment, which is 10 entitled " Plan of Instruction No. 7"?
11 A That is right.
12 O Is that your direct testimony on the Graterford
(~ ', 13 Inmates Contention in this proceeding?
14 A That is correct.
15 0 Mr. Taylor, was your testimony prepared by you 16 or under your direction?
17 A Yes.
18 Q At this time, sir, are there any corrections you 19 , wish to make to this testimony?
20 A Yes. On page 2, in the second line, "Grateford" 21 is misspelled. There should be a second "r" in Graterford 22 that needs to be inserted.
23 0 And are those all the corrections you wish to 24 make?
A< eral Reporters, Inc.
25 A That is all.
20,856 8-9 f 1 Q As corrected, Mr. Taylor, is your testimony s]'
true and correct to the best of your knowledge, information
~2 3 and belief?
4 A It is.
5 s . MS. FERKIN: .Your Honor, at this time I move 6 that the testimony of Donald F. Taylor on Graterford Inmates
_7 Contention Regarding Training of Civilian Response 8 Personnel be received in evidence.
9 JUDGE HOYT: Any objection?
10 MR. LOVE: No objection.
11 MR. HASSELL: No objection.
12 MR. CONNER: No objection.
13 JUDGE HOYT: Very well, the six-page testimony
}
14 of Donald F. Taylor will be received into evidence and 15 will be attached at this point in the transcript.
16 I believe previously Mr. Taylor's qualifications 17 had been inserted in the record and we need not insert an 18 additional copy at this time.
19 MS. FERKIN: Yes, Your Honor, and that point is 20 noted in the testimony which he is giving today.
21 JUDGE HOYT: I believe that transcript page, 22 for easy reference at this point, was transcript page 19,498.
23 MS. FERKIN: That is correct.
24 (The testimony of Donald F. Taylor on Graterford rd it. port.rs, Inc.
25 Inmates: Contention Regarding Training of Civilian Response INDEX Personnel follows:)
1
.r -
(
O UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION Before the Atomic Safety and Licensing Board In the Matter of )
)
PHILADELPHIA ELECTRIC COMPANY ) Docket Nos. 50-352
) 50-353 (Limerick Generating Station, )
Units 1 and 2) )
TESTIMONY OF DONALD F. TAYLOR FOR THE COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA ON GRATERFORD INMATES CONTENTION REGARDING TRAINING 0F CIVILIAN RESPONSE PERSONNEL Q.1. Please state your name and business address.
~
(]); A.1. My name .is Donald F. Taylor. I am Director of Training ~ and Education for the Pennsylvania Emergency Management Agency -
(PEMA). My business address is Transportation and Safety Building, Room B-151, Harrisburg, PA 17120.
Q.2. Mr. Taylor, have you prepared a statement of your professional qualificati,ons?
A.2. Yes. A copy of my biography was admitted in evidence in this proceeding fol. Tr. 19498.
Q.3. Mr. Taylor, what is the purpose of your testimony?
A.3. The purpose of my testimony is to respond to the admitted contention of the Graterford inmates regarding training for civilian personnel who may be called on to participate in 1
( the radiological emergency response plan for the State Correctional Institution at Grategord in the event of an emergency at the Limerick Generating Station.
Q.4. M r. Taylor, could you define what you mean by " civilian personnel?"
A.4. When I refer to " civilian personnel," I use the same definition as that stated by the Atomic Safety and Licensing Board in its Order of June 12, 1985 admitting this contention. The Licensing Board (at p. 6) defined
" civilian personnel" as "those non-state employees identified in Plan 2 of the RERP for the State Correctional Institute at Graterford as having a role in the emergency
~
~
())- response in the event of a radiological _emergenc'y at L i m e r i c k." Such employees are bus and ambulance drivers employed by civilian bus and ambulance companies.
Q.5. What does the training you offer encompass?
A.S. The dosimetry training that will be provided to these bus and ambulance drivers is outlined in the plan of instruction attached to this testimony and incorporated herein by reference. Decontamination monitoring procedures will also be examined as there is a remote possibility that, if dosimetry is utilized by these bus and ambulance drivers, they will also be involved in some manner with decontamination monitoring. This training will ensure
() their knowledge of that process.
2
l O Who will conduct training for the civilian bus and Q.6.
ambulance companies?
A.6. The training described here will be conducted by PEMA. Any such training that will be required is for the direct benefit of another Commonwealth agency. Thus, it is PEM A's responsibility under Annex E of the Commonwealth Disaster Operations Plan to do the training. The training that has
{
been performed for local municipalities (cities, boroughs, townships), school bus drivers, fire fighters, and other personnel should have been performed by the appropriate county. P.L. 1332 places that responsibility on the county. However, due to the inability and/or unwillingness
~
~
of the various counties. tn conduct this training,
- ([)
Philadelphia Electric Company employed a consulting firm to fulfill the training responsibilities of the involved counties.
{ Q.7. How will the bus companies be made aware of the availability of the training you are offering?
A.7. On April 4, 1985, I wrote a personal letter to each of the six bus companies that will transport prisoners from Graterford in the event of an evacuation caused by an accident at the Limerick Generating Station. These letters offered dosimetry training to the bus drivers who will be employed in this endeavor. To date, no responses
() f. rom these six bus companies have been received.
3
A program designed to encourage the aforementioned six bus companies to accept this training will be implemented in late July and early August, 1985. This implementation will involve personal visits by me to each of these bus companies so as to personally urge them to take advantage of this offer of training.
Q.8. How will the ambulance companies be informed of the availability of PEMA training?
A.8. The ambulance companies will be offered training in the same manner as that described in my previous response with respect to the bus companies. I will contact the ambulance companies that. would be called upon in an evacuation of O. - _
Graterford in a radiological emergency at timeric.k by letter, as I have already done with the bus companies.
Thereaf ter, in late July and early August I will visit each company to encourage the company to accept the training offer, if the company has not already done so.
Q.9. When and where will bus and ambulance driver training be conducted?
A.9. Any training sessions that are conducted will be scheduled in a place and at a time convenient to the drivers themselves. It is presumed that such training will be conducted at, or near, the bus or ambulance company headquarters.
4
9 O Q.10. Will PEMA attempt to contact individual drivers to encourage them to accept the training program?
A.10. No. It is not within the purview of PEM A to contact individual drivers in the event a bus or ambulance company does not accept training. However, I intend to make every effort to persuade the bus and ambulance companies to accept such training.
Q.11. Will there be training offered to the bus and ambulance companies in subsequent years, af ter Limerick goes into
, commercial operation? <
A.11. Yes. This training and/or refresher training will be made available an.nually to the drivers of each bus and ambulance -
O- company.
Q.12. The inmates contend that the training course offered by PEMA is inadequate because it is "not as comprehensive as the one offered to the bus drivers of school children" as described in the Licensing Board's Third Partial Initial Decision. Do you have a response to this contention?
A.12. Yes. First of all, the training program for school bus drivers provided by Energy Consultants (EC) through the auspices of the Applicant, Philadelphia Electric Company, was approved by me prior to its implementation in the various counties in the Limerick EPZ. It should also be noted that PEMA certifies the EC instructors as qualified 5
1 i
() to give such instruction. I am therefore in a position to compare the EC course to that being of f ered by PEM A in this instance.
As may be seen in the PEMA lesson plan, the plan of instruction for these bus and ambulance drivers covers a f ull spectrum of topics, including government response to disasters, levels of radiation during an incident at a fixed nuclear facility, proper use of dosimetry, and decontamination monitoring procedures. The only significant difference between this course and the EC program is that the latter provides what I term a "public relations" lesson. This explains how a nuclear generating plan operates and the safety of such a facility. .
\ ~
In my opinion, the PEMA-offered training will I
adequately prepare these bus and ambulance drivers to respond to the Graterford facility in a radiological emergency at Limerick. Further, to the extent drivers attending a training session raise questions that are not covered within the precise scope of the course, the PEMA instructor will respond to the question to the best of his ability, and direct the questioner to other sources if need f be.
4 Q.13. Does this conclude your testimony?
4 l A.13. Yes.
i O
i 6 i
t
PLAN OF INSTRUCTION NUMBER SEVEN DOSIMETRY AND DECONTAMINATION SEMINAR FOR EMERGENCY PERSONNEL Rationale Despite the extraordinary precautions and safeguards in effect, there remains the possibility of unplanned radiological releases from the nuclear-powered generating plants located within the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. In minimizing the risk to emergency response personnel who may be required to function in a potentially hazardous environment, there is a need for such personnel to know how to monitor their personal exposure to radiation, monitor exposure of other persons, and conduct proper decontamination monitoring procedures.
~ ~
~
[ }-
Purpose This seminar is designed to provide emergency personnel with the knowledge and skills that will permit them to monitor their personal exposure to radiation and to conduct decontamina-tion monitoring procedures that will be employed in appropriate locales in proximity to nuclear-powered generating plants.
Objectives
! Upon completion of this seminar, participants should be able to do the following:
l 1. Develop an understanding of the government l
response .ta) disasters.
- 2. Demonstrate an ability to properly utilize the designated dosimetry.
- 3. Know the acceptable levels of radiation during an incident at a fixed nuclear
- facility.
()
1 i
- 4. Demonstrate an understanding of maintaining
,_ appropriate records.
- 5. Understand reception centers, mass care centers, and where decontamination monitoring procedures are utilized.
- 6. Demonstrate the proper use of a survey meter.
Qualifications for Attendance All county emergency management coordinators, members of the county emergency management organizations, municipal emergency management coordinators as recommended by their county coordinators, and any other person approved by the Pennsylvania Emergency Management Agency are eligible to attend this seminar.
Summary of Subject Areas Subjects Hours
- 1. Introdu'ction and Overview ,
o,1
~
- 2. Government Response to Disasters 0.5
- 3. Dosimetry 0.9
- 4. Decontamination 0.9
- 5. Summary and Conclusion 0.1 Total 2.5 Units of Instruction
- 1. Introduction and Overview 0.1 hours1.157407e-5 days <br />2.777778e-4 hours <br />1.653439e-6 weeks <br />3.805e-7 months <br /> The instructor will introduce all those persons who should be made known to the students. Then, through a brief lecture, the instructor will explain the purpose of this seminar and briefly review the subjects that will be discussed.
O 2
,y
- 2. Government Response to Disasters 0.5 hours5.787037e-5 days <br />0.00139 hours <br />8.267196e-6 weeks <br />1.9025e-6 months <br />
- () '
Reference:
- a. Federal Civil Defense Act of 1950, P.L.81-920.
4
- b. Pennsylvania Emergency Management Services Act of 1978, P.L. 1332.
- c. "The Pennsylvania Emergency Manage-ment Agency," a brochure.
Presentation: The instructor will lecture on the development i
of civil defense in the United States with an emphasis on Pennsylvania. The evolvement into emergency management will be explained and its present mission described. The involvement of emergency management in planning for incidents
- at fixed nuclear facilities will be described.
The PEMA brochure will be utilized as a hand-out.
- 3. Dosimetry 0.9 hours1.041667e-4 days <br />0.0025 hours <br />1.488095e-5 weeks <br />3.4245e-6 months <br />
Reference:
Commonwealth of Pennsylvania; Disaster Operations Plan, Annex E (" Fixed Nuclear Facility Incidents") ; November, 1981; Appendix 16 (" Radiological. Exposure ~
- Control."). -
(])
j
', Presentation: a. '
Through lecture and discussion, the instructor will demonstrate the proper use of the three dosimeters and the charger.
o (1) CD V-730 (or DCA 622)
(2) CD V-742
' TLD (thermoluminescent dosimeter 1
(3)
,' badge)
(4) CD V-750
- b. Through lecture and discussion, the instructor will explain the following acceptable levels of radiation l
concerning fixed nuclear facility I incidents:
(1) 25 R (2) 15-20 R (3) 5R l
()-
3 l
l
+ > - ,
- c. Through lecture and discussion, the instructor will explain the proper s_j record forms and how they should be maintained.
- 4. Decontamination 0.9 hours1.041667e-4 days <br />0.0025 hours <br />1.488095e-5 weeks <br />3.4245e-6 months <br />
Reference:
Commonwealth of Pennsylvania; Disaster Operations Plan, Annex E (" Fixed Nuclear Facility Incidents"); November, 1981; Appendix 16 (" Radiological Exposure Control").
Presentation: The instructor, through lecture and discussion, will examine reception centers and mass care centers. Then, decontamination monitoring procedures will be identified and demonstrated.
The proper use of a CD V-700 will be explained and demonstrated. The following will then be discussed and explained:
- a. Background radiation (usually .03 mr).
- b. Radiation above background of .05 mr or more will be referred to a physician.
, c. Thyroid must not exceed .1 mr. .
\
- d. Appropriate record keeping.
- 5. Summary and Conclusion 0.1 hours1.157407e-5 days <br />2.777778e-4 hours <br />1.653439e-6 weeks <br />3.805e-7 months <br /> The instructor will briefly summarize the content of this seminar and then bring it to a conclusion.
Evaluation All participants will be requested to complete the evaluation form that is marked " Attachment A."
Deployment
- This seminar will be presented in each county within the Commonwealth that is involved with nuclear-powered generating plants.
O 4
Attachm:nt A PENNSYLVANIA EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY
( OFFICE OF TRAINING AND EDUCATION Course Evaluation for Dosimetry and Decontamination Seminar I. General - Check space preceding most appropriate answer
- 1. My reaction to this seminar can best be described as:
( ) a. The seminar met my needs far beyond my expectations.
( ) b. The seminar met my needs in an adequate manner.
( ) c. The seminar did not meet all my needs.
( ) d. The seminar did not meet my needs at all.
- 2. My estimate of the instructor's capabilities can best be described as:
~
( ) a .' The instructor was exc'ellent.,
( ) b. The instructor was good.
( ) c. The instructor met most of my needs, but some needs were not addressed.
( ) d. The instructor failed to meet my needs.
- 3. The room in which the instruction was conducted can best be described as:
( ) a. The room was excellent.
( ) b. The room was good.
( ) c. The room was not quite adequate.
The room was totally inadequate.
( ) d. .
II. Meeting Objectives
- 1. My understanding of the government response to disasters can best be described as:
( ) a. I fully understand the government response to disasters.
( ) b. I understand generally the government response to disasters.
() ( ) c. I do not understand the government response to disasters.
1
- 2. My knowledge of the proper use of dosimetry can be g-] described as:
V
( ) a. I fully understand the proper use of dosimetry.
( ) b. I understand generally the proper use of dosimetry.
( ) c. I do not understand the proper use of dosimetry.
- 3. My knowledge of the acceptable levels of radiation during an incident at a fixed nuclear facility can best be described as:
( ) a. I fully understand the acceptable levels of radiation.
( ) b. I understand generally the acce; able levels of radiation.
( ) c. I do not understand the acceptable levels of radiation.
- 4. My understanding of the proper maintenance of appropriate records can best be described as:
1 ( ) a. I understand completely the appropriate records and how they are to be maintained.
( ) b. I understand. generally the a'ppropriate ~
recor'ds and.how they are to be maintained.
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~
(])
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( ) c. I do not understand the appropriate records or how they are to be maintained.
- 5. My knowledge of reception centers, mass care centers, and where decontamination monitoring procedures are to be utilized can best be described as:
( ) a. I fully understand reception centers, mass care centers, and where decontamination monitoring procedures are to be utilized.
( ) b. I generally understand reception centers, mass care centers, and where decontamination
, monitoring procedures are to be utilized.
l ( ) c. I do not understand reception centers, mass care centers, or where decontamination monitoring procedures are to be utilized.
- 6. My knowledge and understanding of the effective use of a survey meter can best be described as:
( ) a. I understand completely the use of a survey meter.
( ) b. I understand the proper use of a survey meter, but have some questions about such use.
() ( ) c. I do not understand how to use a survey meter.
2
III. Recommendations
- h. In'the space below,.please submit any recommendations you may have regarding this seminar.
.g 4
6 3
20,857 S,im 8-10 i MS. FERKIN: ,The witness is tendered for
~ - :
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2 cross-examination.'
3 JUDGE HOYT: Thank you.
4 We will again start out with you, Mr. Conner.
5 I I CROSS-EXAMINATION. ,
6 INDEXXXXXX 6 BY MR. CONNER:
7 Q- s EMr.TayIor)'youreferredtothetypeoftraining 8 that your office will offer to the transportation providers, 9 mostly the buses. Has-your office provided this typendf
~
10 training to other bus providers or other people in the State 11 before?
12 A The same training has been provided to other.
13 bus drivers, yes, sir.
- O' '
j4 Q Has-it been'provided to any of these ones_that 15 have been designated, the six bus companies you referred to?
16 A No,.it has not.
17 MR. CONNER: I have no further questions.
18 JUDGE HOYT: Mr. Hirsch.
19 MR. HIRSCH: I have no questions, Your Honor.
20 JUDGE HOYT: Mr. Love, are you ready for your 21 cross-examination?
22 MR.. LOVE: Yes.
23 CROSS-EXAMINATION sINDEX- - 24 BY MR. LOVE:
el Reporters, Inc.
25 Q Mr. Taylor, have you ever had any prior experience 1
20,858 Sim 8-11 1 in dealing with institutionalized persons?
2 A In what way?
3 0 Training them.
4 A Yes.
5 0 offering training about them?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And where and when?
8 A About ten years ago in Western Pennsylvania, 9 in Pittsburgh to be exact. I ran a counseling group for a 10 half-way house, if you will, for parolees and probationers 11 from about 16 or 18 counties in Western Pennsyvlania.
12 Q Have you ever offered any training in the custody 13 and control of incarcerated individuals?
14 A No.
15 Q Do you have any experience in evacuating penal 16 institutions?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Where would that have been?
19 A That was prior to my being Director of Training 20 and Education. I was a Nuclear Civil Protection Planning Officer 21 for the PEMA and was in charge of developing the crisis 22 relocation plan then in effect in the Commonwealth.
23 Q Excuse me?
24 A That was then in effect in the Commonwealth.
A er_I Reporters, Inc.
25 Q For the whole Commonwealth?
,1 - _ . , .
20,859
'Sim'8-12 Q And that' included the prisons I take it?
- (- 1
-a . ,
2 A Yes, sir,'and other institutions housing the 3 Nentally disturbed an'd patidnts of that type.
4 , Q. Okay. :Now with respect to,the course content 5 -of the training that you plan to offer -- and let me just 6 refer specifically to your_ testimony here.
7 (Pause. )
8 In your plan of instruction No. 7, which was 9 attached as an exhibit, on page 3, government response to 10 disasters, "The instructor will lecture on the development 11 of civil defense in the United States with an emphasis on' 12 Pennsylvania and the evolvement into emergency management 13 'will be explained and its present mission described. The
[' } '
14 involvement of emergency management and planning for incidents 15 at fixed nuclear facilities will be described."
16 Will this include any mention of prisons and 17 evacuating prisons?
18 A Yes. This is the only -- Graterford is the only 19 penal institution in the Commnonwealth_and in the country, 20 as I understand it, that is in a 10-mile EPZ. But in this 21 case, yes,.we would discuss that.-
22 Q Due to this unique situation?
23 A Yes.
24 Q I see. Were you involved at all in the evacuation heti n. port.n. inc.
25 planning for the Camp Hill facility?
20,860 Sim 8-13 1 A In what time? During TMI?
O 2 O Yes.
3 A Yes.
4 Q And in what capacity were you in?
5 A I was at that time the Director of Training and 6 Education for PEMA and I was in charge of a couple of people 7 who were in the process of developing that evacuation plan 8 for not only Camp Hill but the entire area, at that time 9 20-mile area.
10 Q Now the course that you have offered, the 11 course that you are offering, do you see any particular 12 problems in that it is involving a prison as opposed to say 13 school children?
14 A No.
15 Q You don't anticipate the fact that the individuals 16 to be transported being inmates makes absolutely no difference 17 as far as you are concerned?
18 A No, I don't think so.
19 0 Will there be any offer of training in inmate 20 custody and control?
21 A No.
22 Q Do you feel it is necessary?
23 A No.
24 Q Now the Licensing Board in its third partial A er;l Reporters. Inc.
25 decision stated that civilian bus drivers for school children
\
20,861 I ' #" " "9 * * " " " "" 9 " #" # "" "
'im 8-14 2 and overview of radiation principles, emergency management 3 principles, susceptibility of children to radiation, and 4 additional background information."
5 Will your course include these topics?
6 A Yes. When we' discuss that, as you can see in 7 the plan of instruction in the area regarding dosimetry and 8 also in the decontamination monitoring procedures, we 9 discuss those general background principles and the use of 10 those instruments and so on. So it is all tied together.
11 Q Are you familiar with the course content that 12 the Board was referring to in this third partial decision?
13 A -I don't know which ---
c ,
v 14 0 I believe it is offered by Energy Consultants.
15 . A If Energy Consultants did it, that was introduced 16 to me prior to its being introduced to any of the students 17 and was approved by me in that regard.
18 Q Is your course more comprehensive than this 19 course?
20 A It is the same course.
21 Q It is the same course?
22 A Those people were certified by me.
23 Q How long does the course take?
24 A This course?
A eral Reporters, Inc.
25 Q Yes.
20,862 Sim--8-15 ~
- s I A It says three hours or two and a half hours. It N.]
2 is over on page 2 I believe. Two and a half hours on
'3 -- p a g e. 2 .
4 Two and a half hours. Fine.
Q 5 Q When was this training offered?
- 6 A To whom?
7 Q To the bus companies, or to anyone with regard 8 to this particular issue?
9 A Okay. You mean in regard to the bus drivers?
10 0 And anyone else that might have been contracted
'II or is going to be?
12 A That are going to take care of Graterford?
13 g .yes,
[a'l I4 MR. HASSELL: Judge Hoyt, if I may. Before the 15 witness goes forward, Mr. Love, and I am speaking rehlly-16 through Judge Hoyt. I believe the record is going to be I7 hopelessly difficult to understand unless we allow the l
18 witness to finish and the witness allows you to finish.
l 19 JUDGE HOYT: Yes, I think you are right, 20 Mr. Hassell.
2I Accordingly, gentlemen, you are cautioned.
22 THE WITNESS: I think my testimony indicates 23 that on April 4 I believe of this year I sent a letter to i 24 the six bus companies involved offering them the training.
ril Reporters, Inc.
25 BY MR. LOVE:
i
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)
20,863
-Sim'8-161 1 Q- Have you'recewived any responses to date?
7s
(. 2 No, I haven't.
A 3 0' zand that'is the total offer that you have 4 generated is just a letter to the six bus companies?
5 A' That is' correct.
6 Q My clients, the inmate population, are very 7 concerned about the possibility that these drivers may
.8 not show up. Is there any guarantees that you can provide 9 that these drivers will in. fact be trained and will'in 10 fact participate?
II A' I can only offer the training, and as I have
-12 indicated also in my testimony, I will go out and personally j{ } 13 contact each of those six bus companies on a. personal basis
'14 attempt to persuade them to have their drivers go through 15 the training.
16 As far as some assurance from me, I don't think 17 you are asking the right person.-
18 Q In other words, you cannot provide such assurance ;
19 is that correct?
20 A That they going to show up?
21 Q Or that they are going to be trained.
22 A No, I can't provide assurances other than offering 23 them the training. I cannot offer any assurances that they 24 will be..
d n.porem. inc.
25 0 Will financial incentives be used to encourage u
20,864 Sim 8-17 the drivers to participate in the training?
1 2 A I am not going to address that. However, that 3 has been considered and we have a process if that ever becomes 4 an issue.
5 Q Who would be the person to address that?
6 A To address the issue of ---
7 Q If financial incentives will be used.
i I think, you know, if that becomes an issue, and 8 A 9 if it is raised by the bus companies and they believe that 10 they want some sort of reimbursement for their employees, 11 then I would go back to the Department of Corrections and make 12 this known to them and they would have to then make the g 13 arrangements because the contract is between them and the 14 bus companies and they would probably have to go back to 15 PECO and ask for the money to do such reimbursement.
16 Q Are you personally familiar with the bus companies:
17 A I know their names and addresses.
18 Q Are you familiar with whether their employees 19 are full or part-time?
20 A I have no idea.
21 Q Do you know they are unionized?
22 A I have no idea.
23 Q Now you -- and correct me if I am wrong -- you 24 were involved in other training for other personnel that At erd Reporters, Inc.
25 will be involved in this other than the Graterford inmates?
I
20,865 Sim 8-18 1 A Yes.
O 2 O The civilian schoolLbEs drivers, for example?
3 A- -
Yes.
4 Q And you have offered training to those companies 5 I assume?
6 A That training has been provided to those drivers.
7 Q It has been?
8 A Yes. It is done on a continuing basis, on a
-end Sim~ 9 regular basis.
. Joe fols 10
~ 11 12 3
(])
14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
- J Reporters, Inc.
25
l 20,866 9-1-Jon Wal 1 Q- And what kind of response have you received?
l A Offhand I can't say, except that the re cords '
2 1
3 that I receive on a regular basis indicates that there is 4 relatively full compliance. I understand that we have more l
5 than enough people trained than we need.
6 Q Now, if a bus driver is not trained, do you 7 think his ability to perform in this evacuation would be 8 greater or less?
9 A I don't think it makes any difference, because of 10 our concept of evacuation, the bus drivers are not ordinarily 11 going to be issued dosimetry, so they don' t need to know that.
12 Q So they don't really even need the training,
'( ) 13 is that what you are saying?
i 14 A It is my belief that they don' t, no.
l 15 Q Do you think the fact that the drivers would be 16 called upon to drive into a nuclear emergency, and face the 17 dangers from incarcerated individuals will cause them some 18 concern and perhaps not show up?
19 MS. FERKIN: Objection.
20 JUDGE HOYT: I am getting all sorts of signals 21 here. I don't know who wants to object.
22 MR. CONNER: I yield to the State.
1 23 JUDGE HOYT: Wise idea, Mr. Conner. I l
l 24 MS. FERKIN: I was about to yield to the l w necews. tx.
I 25 Applicant.
I
9-2-Joe Wal 20,867 JUDGE HOYT: Well, I yield to no one.
-( } 1 2 (Laughter. )
3 JUDGE HOYT: Your turn, Ms. Ferkin.
4 MS. FERKIN : A lack of foundation as to 5 -- one point the dangerousness of the inmates, the other 6 point was the state of the nuclear emergency.
7 Frankly, those two points there have been 8 foundation as to the hazard of the situation that these 9 bus drivers were facing.
10 JUDGE-HOYT: Mr. Conner, I don't mean to 11 facetiously cut you off or anything. If you wish to contribute.
12 MR. CONNER: I agree with all the things Ms.
() 13 Ferkin said, and I will add to it it is way beyond this 14 contention as to training in this area.
15 JUDGE HOYT: I think on that basis -- Mr. Love, 16 do you wish to make any further comment before the Board i
'17 rules?
18 MR. LOVE: No. I will withdraw that question, 19 and move on.
20 JUDGE HOYT: Very well.
21 BY MR. LOVE: (Continuing) 22 Q Now, with respect to the ambulance drivers ,
23 have they been contacted yet?
24 A They haven't.
d Reporters, Inc.
25 Q When do you anticipate contacting them?
3-Jo2 Wal 20,868
/~T 1 A In the same time frame that I contact the bus
'%.)
2 drivers, the bus companies.
3 Q Can you give us any assurances that they will, 4 in fact, be trained?
5 A Based on my experience with other ambulance 6 drivers, I would say that the likelihood is that they would 7 accept the training.
8 MR. LOVE: I have nothing further.
9 JUDGE HOYT: Very well. Mr. Hassell, are you 10 ready. Mr. Love has completed his cross examination. I believe 11 you are next.
XX INDEX 12 CROSS EXAMINATION 13 BY MR. HASSELL:
14 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Taylor. My name is Mr.
15 Hassell, counsel for the NRC Staff. I just have a few 16 questions for you.
i 17 Would you please explain why the bus drivers 18 will not be issued dosimetry?
19 A Pennsylvania has a concept of one lift; 20 the concept includes going into the area prior to the need ,
21 for dosimetry, and removing the prisoners , so there wouldn't I 22 be any need for issuance of dosimetry.
23 Q I believe you testified earlier in response 24 to cross examination by Mr. Love that training in the area
- S Reporters, Inc.
25 of inmate custody and control would not be necessary, is that 4
6
, - . . . . , . . . . . - , , , - ----,, . _-..m-, y - , , _ - _ . - - , --
i 9-4-Jon Wal 20,869 1 correct?
{}
2 A That is correct.
3 Q Would you explain why not?
4 A The Department of Corrections is going to provide 5 the - on cada bus that kind of custodial control, so the bus 6 drivers will merely drive these buses.
7 0 To your knowledge, is that also the case with 8 the ambulances?
9 A That is correct.
10 Q Do you have any reason to believe that the 11 training for the bus drivers will not take place because 12 of the absence of some financial inducement?
.() 13 A That may be a factor, but I don't have any real 14 hard -- any real reason to believe that they won't accept 15 the training.unless they have some financial inducement.
16 MR. HASSELL: If I may just have a moment.
17 (Pause.)
18 MR. HASSELL: I have no further questions.
19 JUDGE HOYT: You have any redirect?
20 MS. FERKIN: I do, Your Honor, but I ask for a 21 short break.
22 JUDGE HOYT: How short?
23 MS, FERKIN: Six minutes.
24 JUDGE HOYT: Very well. We will recess for 3 neporwri,Inc.
25 six minutes.
9-5-Jos Wal 20,870 1 (Short recess taken.)
2 JUDGE HOYT: Very well. The hearing will come 3 to order.
4 Let the record reflect that all the parties 5 to the hearing that were present in the hearing room prior 6 to the recess are again present.
7 The witness is taking his place on the witness 8 stand. You have previously taken the oath here, and I am 9 reminding you that you are still under oath. l t
10 Ms. Ferkin, are you ready to proceed? ll 11 MS. FERKIN: Yes, ma'am.
12 JUDGE HOYT: Please do so.
,I INDEX 13 REDIRECT EXAMINATION l
14 BY MS. FERKIN: i i
I 15 Q Mr. Taylor, Mr. Love asked you questions with 16 respect to whether dosimetry would be provided for the l
17 civilian bus drivers who would respond to Graterford Limerick I 18 emergency, do you recall those questions? !
19 A Yes.
I 20 0 What is your understanding as to whether 21 dosimetry would be provided for bus drivers of civilian i 22 companies who would respond to Graterford? l l
23 A For the ones at Graterford?
l 24 Q Yes, for Graterford. l a nmorten. ix. {
25 A The dosimetry, there will be dosimetry provided to
1 20,871 9-6-Joa Wal
- I those bus drivers who will be driving the buses. The prisoner a
2 himself from Graterford.
3 Q Do you know why that is as opposed to, for 4 example, drivers of school children?
5 A I believe that it is because of the time 6 factor. The time the bus drivers for Graterford would be 7 there in a potentially -- at a potentially dangerous time, 8 and for that reason they would be provided the dosimetry.
9 Q Could it take longer to evacuate the Graterford l l
10 Institution than it could to evacuate the schools within the l 11 EPZ?
i 12 A I would assume so, yes, j
(, 13 Q Is that your understanding of why dosimetry !
I i
14 would be provided to these drivers? l 6
1 15 A Yes. !
16 Q Mr. Love also asked you, sir, whether you 17 thought training for the bus drivers who will respond to !
18 Graterford would make a difference in their responses. Do l 19 you recall those questions?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Would you tell me in your opinion why training i
22 is being provided for these bus drivers?
23 A Well, many people don't understand dosimetry 24 and radiation and this will enhance their understanding of l w3 Reporwrs, Inc.
l 25 that to enable them to have a better understanding of what l l
i
9-7-Joe Wal 20,872
/~'
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- i ' kind of an environment circumstance they might find themselves 2 in.
3 Q So, such training would, in your opinion, enhance 4 the understanding of these bus drivers?
5 A Yes.
6 MS. FERKIN: I have no further questions.
7 JUDGE HOYT: All right.
8 MR. CONNER: May I have a couple of clarifying 9 questions?
10 JUDGE HOYT: All right, Mr. Conner, go ahead.
XX INDEX 11 RECROSS EXAMINATION 12 BY MR. CONNER:
t( ) 13 Q Mr. Taylor, on this point of dosimetry, if I 14 were a bus driver driving to Graterford to pick up some 15 prisoners, as you say, I would have dosimetry on me. It 16 would be a film badge and a -- what would it be?
17 A Well, CDD 730, or its equivalent, CDD 742, 18 JUDGE HOYT: Are you saying CB --
19 WITNESS: CD.
20 JUDGE HOYT: Charles Dog. All right. Go ahead.
21 WITNESS: And a TLD badge, thermal luminescent 22 dosimeter.
23 BY MR. CONNER: (Continuing) 24 Q Okay. Now, when I arrived at my destination and
'A Reporters, Inc.
25 delivered the prisoners, what would be done with that
20,873 9-8-Jon wel 1 dosimetry?
(}
2 A It would be checked, read, and at least the 3 730s and 742s would be read, and if there was any real problem 4 then the TLD badges would be read if there was any need for 5 that, and the data recorded.
6 Q And in the event it were decided for some reason 7 -- I am the bus driver still, and I am entering the EPZ from 8 outside the EPZ, could training in dosimetry be given to me 9 on the spot, such as would be done for farm workers, for 10 example, who might be re-entering?
11 A There are provisions for that.
Yes. A very 12 quick orientation.
. ,m
\ 13 MR. CONNER: Thank you. I have no other 14 questions.
15 MR. LOVE: Could I ask some additional questions 16 in reference to the redirect?
17 JUDGE HOYT: Yes. Proceed.
xx INDEX 18 RECROSS EXAMINATION 19 BY MR. LOVE:
20 Q Mr. Taylor, you stated a little earlier you 21 felt the training would make little difference, and now you 22 have stated that it would enhance the trainee's ability to 23 function, is that correct?
24 A Well, enhance their understanding of the potential A- J R eorwes,lm. I 25 problem, yes.
9-9-Joa Wal 20,874 1 Q And would it -- following that a little further, 2 if they did not have the training would it then be safe to 3 say that their ability to function during evacuation would 4 be lessened?
5 A No, I don' t think so.
6 Q You don't think so?
7 A No.
8 Q All right,I Move on. Just for clarification, 9 you said earlier that dosimetry training would not be offered. i l
i 10 However, you are withdrawing that statement, and you are now i Il stating that it will be offered, is that correct?
12 MS. FERKIN: I object to the characterization 7~ q
,,) 13 of the previous testimony. I don't think it was a statement 4 1
14 that dosimetry would not be offered. l 15 MR. LOVE: Dosimetry training, or dosimeters, I 16 believe he stated, would not be offered earlier; and now you are i
17 stating that it will be offered.
l 18 MR. CONNER: Object. l 19 JUDGE HOYT: Let's have a ruling on the objection, i
20 Mr. Love. If it is characterized inaccurately, Ms. Ferkin, j i
21 I am going to allow you to pick up the question on your 22 re-redirect, and perhaps clarify it in that fashion.
I 23 Go ahead, Mr. Love. l 2d BY.MR. LOVE: (Continuing) l J Reportm, Inc.
25 Q Could you clarify what you were saying about.
l l
t
19-10-Jon Wal '20,875
/~N 1 dosimetry and dosimeters -- dosimeters and dosimetry training?
O 2 MR. CONNER: We would object on the further 3 ground that on the initial cross-examination the witness was 4 asked no questions about dosimetry as such.
5 IIe was asked about training, and I am not sure 6 Mr. Love is making distinction in his own mind, at least, 7 in that question.
8 I think he needs to approach it a little more 9 fundamentally.
'End 9. 10 SueWal fols.
11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 -
19 20 21 22 23 l
24 Reporwes, Inc.
25
20,876
[/1-1-SueWall JUDGE HOYT: Well, I think it's coming through w
2 fairly clearly, Mr. Conner. We will let the question be 3 asked by the counsel.
4 Go ahead, Mr. Love.
5 WITNESS TAYLOR: Can you repeat that and tell 4
-6 me what you asked again?
7 MR. LOVE: Yes.
8 BY MR. LOVE: (Continuing) 9 I'm just trying to clear up your remarks regard-Q 10 ing dosimetry training and the use of dosimeters with respect II to these civilian bus drivers.
12 A The dosimetry training has been offered to them, 13 will be offered to them again. The dosimetry, as I understand Id it, will'be given to them at some point I guess when they 15 arrive at the -- I'm not sure where the dosimetry is given 16 to them, either at the home place where they gather and I7 rendezvous before going to Graterford or at Graterford.
4 18 In any event, they get the dosimetry. -
I' MR. LOVE: Fine. Thank you. Nothing further.
- j. 20 JUDGE HOYT: Mr. Conner, do you have anything as 21 a result of that exchange?
22 MR. CONNER: No, thank you.
23 JUDGE HOYT: Mr. Ferkin?
MS. FERKIN: We have nothing further.
3 R eorwrs, W.
JUDGE HOYT: Mr. Hassell?
20,877 f^9-2-SueWall MR. HASSELL: No, Judge Hoyt.
(j-2 JUDGE HOYT: This is Judge Cole, and he will 3 have some questions for you, Mr. Taylor.
4 BOARD EXAMINATION INDEXXXX 5 BY JUDGE COLE:
6 Q Just one or two questions, Dr. Taylor. It has 7 to do with Page 3 of your prepared testimony, Question 7 --
8 Answer 7.
9 Now, with respect to the personal letter that 10 you sent to each of the six bus companies that will transport 11 prisoners from Graterford in the event of an evacuation, were 12 there any conditions stated in this letter for the training?
(j 13 Was it identified, for example, that the train-14 ing might be provided free of charge, or would be provided 15 at no expense to them?
16 A Yes. It was made clear that it would be provided 17 to them at no expense to them.
18 Q All right, sir. Now, in the last part of your 19 answer to Question -- well, at the bottom of Page 3, you 20 state: "To date, no responses fron these six bus companies 21 have been received."
22 I just wanted to make sure that I understand 23 what is meant by that term. Does that mean any kind of j 24 communication, or does it mean something other than that?
m3 Rootmes, lm 25 A No. I haven't heard from the bus companies at l
20,878
' O-3--SueWall all.
V' 2 Q Not even a phone call?
3 A No, sir.
4 JUDGE COLE: All right, sir. Thank you. That's
'5 all I have.
6 JUDGE HOYT: Judge Harbour.
7 BOARD EXAMINATION
'INDEXXX 8 BY JUDGE HARBOUR:
9 Q Following up on Judge Cole's, you said offered 10 at no expense to the bus companies. Is that correct?
II A That's correct.
12 O Would not the wages that the men would earn while r%
$u,[ 13 training be an expense to the bus company?
14 A I would think so unless the bus company -- I 15 don't know how'they were going to do that. We didn't talk 16 in details.
I'7 I haven' t been contacted by them.
18 So what did you mean then by no expense to the Q
19 bus companies?
20 A Well, no expense to them. It was not that we 21 were going to charge them tuition or anything like that.
22 Q So, it's a free course?
23 A Right.
24 Q How difficult is it to read a dosimeter? Is e neponm, Inc.
25 it like a fever thermometer perhaps, as difficult as that,
20,879 l more difficult than that?
}-4-SueWal 2 A No, it's about the same difficulty I would think.
3 O. What about the other aspects of dosimetry train-4 ing? Does it involve any complex, technical understanding?
5 A No. We provide the various levels of radiation 6 that they might read from their dosimeter and then indicate 7 what course of action they should take if their dosimeters or 8 one of their dosimeters would show that reading, we would 9 bring out those various levels as indicated in the plan of 10 instruction.
11 Q Now, has potassium iodide been provided along 12 with the dosimeters for the bus drivers, or will it be (O
,j 13 Provided? Is it in the plan?
14 A I'm not sure of that.
15 Q Now, I think in your prepared testimony you 16 said that you will contact the ambulance companies or the 17 ambulance operators.
18 And I thought that I heard you just now say 19 that you have contacted them. Which --
20 A No. No, I have not yet contacted the ambulance 21 drivers. But I intend to do so at the same time as I 22 contact personally the bus companies.
23 Q So, you are talking here about the ambulance gg A.g7J 24 operators when you say ambulance drivers?
Reporters, Inc, 25 A Right. I believe it's one company, although I'm
)
/ O 20,880
(}-5-SueWall not quite sure of that.
V; P" When do you intend to contact the ambulance 2 ,. O 3 . companies?
4 A I'm going to do dhat at the end of this month le
( 5 or the early part of August.
6 Q The Applicant has offered to provide this 7 training through energy consultants, and as I understand I
8 it the State of Pennsylvania has said it's their responsi-9 bility, that they intend to offer it.
10 Do you have adequate staff to offer this training 11 in terms of numbers of people and the qualifications of the 12 people?
- r1
(/ 13 A Yes, I do.
14 JUDGE HARBOUR: That's all I have.
15 JUDGE HOYT: Are there any additional questions?
o 16 MR. LOVE: May I ask one additional question 17 along that same line?
18 JUDGE HOYT: What is the nature of the question?
19 MR. LOVE: Do the letters --
/
I 20 .. ,JdDGE HOYT: What's the nature of the question, I
jP 21 Mr. Love?
22 MR. LOVE: With regard to the letters that were
, 23 sent to the bus drivers.
gr 24 CUDGE HOYT: All right. Go ahead.
' A.gp
$l d Reporters, Inc.
INDEXXX 25 ', RECROSS EXAMINATION
- r 1._
20,881
/"*r-6-SueWaly BY MR. LOVE:
k_[ '
g Q Do the letters indicate in any way that the 3 training will involve evacuating a prison? Or, is it just 4 offered with respect to the radiological aspects of the training?
5 A I'm not quite sure I understand.
6 Q. Does the letter --
7 MR. CONNER: I think the question goes beyond the 8 contention.
9 JUDGE HOYT: May I have that question again, Mr.
10 Love?
11 MR. LOVE: Does the letter sent to the bus 12 companies offering training indicate in any way whether it
- [))
%+
13 involves a prison evacuation?
14 JUDGE HOYT: You think that is beyond the scope 15 of the --
16 MR. CONNER: I think that was slightly different.
17 I thought he had said that the training or any training about 18 the evacuees from the prisoners, the inmates.
19 JUDGE HOYT: Well, the question he is asking 20 is the one he has just asked, Mr. Conner.
21 MR. CONNER: I withdraw the objection.
22 JUDGE HOYT: Very well, because it was going to 23 be overruled.
24 Proceed.
'h. d Reporters, Inc, 25 BY MR. LOVE: (Continuing)
20,882
. vf')-7-SueWall Q Does the letter indicate anrthing about the 2 fact that it would involve a prison evacuation?
3 A It refers to the fact that the bus drivers
'4 will be evacuating prisoners from Graterford.
5 MR. LOVE: Fine. Thank you.
6 JUDGE HOYT: All right. Do we have any other 7 questions?
, 8 (No reply. )
9 Very well. Is there any reason for this 10 witness to be retained?
II (No reply.)
12 None, Ms. Ferkin?
) 13 MS. FERKIN: I have nothing further.
14 JUDGE HOYT: Very well. No one intends to 15 recall you, then. Thank you for your testimony, Mr. Taylor, 16 and you are excused, sir.
17 (The witness stood aside.)
18 Very well. The Board will recess this evening, 19 to meet tomorrow morning at 9:30. In anticipation that you 20 may wish to have this transcript of today's hearings available 21 before the hearing begins tomorrow, is there any desire to 22 have this available before 9 o' clock at this hearing site?
23 I'm talking about the daily transcripts. -
24 MR. HASSELL: If that's possible, because I'm r* Reporters, Inc.
25 in the posture of Dr. Urbanik arriving this evening --
4 20,883
'D /]-8-SueWall JUDGE IIOYT: Yes.
2 MR. IIASSELL: -- and I'would obviously would
- 3 want him to have available Mr. Zimmerman's testimony.
r 4 JUDGE HOYT: Yes. I frankly will have to say 5 that that was part of the reason that I made the inquiry, 6 Mr. liassell, to determine when we could get those transcripts 7 available.
8 Would you wish it any earlier than that?
9 MR. IIASSELL: I think that will be sufficient.
i 10 JUDGE HOYT: Nine o' clock. Very well. Then --
II MR. CONNER: I'm sorry. Are we talking about 12 9 o' clock tonight or 9 o' clock tomorrow morning?
13 JUDGE HOYT: No, we are talking about 9 o' clock 4
14 tomorrow morning.
15 If that's not clear, that is-what time I'm 16 talking about.
17 MR.< CONNER: If the transcripts were to be 18 available earlier, we would appreciate knowing about it so 19 that we could pick them up, because we do intend to submit ~
20 findings --
21 JUDGE HOYT: Y68.
- 22 MR. CONNER
- - along with our oral argument, 23 and that would expedite our review a little bit. But on the 1
-24 other hand, if it's an imposition on the Board in any way we J Reporters, Inc.
- 20 don't do it.
20,884 SueWall JUDGE HOYT: No, it's not an imposition on the 2 Board. We don't type, Mr. Conner.
3 But the Reporters have told me that they can 4 have this available earlier if there were to be some need 5 for having it earlier. This is assuming that their support 6 staff arrives in time --
7 MR. CONNER: Oh.
8 JUDGE HOYT: -- and I think it will arrive in 9 time; it has never failed in the past.
10 So that if you wish to have it earlier, if 11 you would tell me how much earlier that you would want that 12 perhaps we can relay that through to our Reporters and they
<~n ,
13 can make the arrangements accordingly. !
i 14 MR. CONNER: Okay. We will talk to the Reporter 15 about it and maybe get a partial transcript and then have i
16 it rebound. But I see -- !
17 JUDGE HOYT: I simply don't want the transcript 18 being made available to one party earlier than it would be 19 made available to any other party.
I' 20 MR. CONNER: Okay.
21 JUDGE HOYT: I assume that all parties here i 22 have ordered copies of the transcript, the daily transcript; 23 am I correct in that?
24 Have you ordered it, Mr. Love?
er f Reporters, Inc.
25 MR. LOVE: I have not.
20,885
("g-10-SueWad JUDGE HOYT: Do you intend to order one? You V
2 may if you wish.
3 MR. LOVE: I will have to find out more details 4 regarding the cost and get approval from my boss.
5 JUDGE HOYT: Now, Mr. Love, you came to this 6 hearing knowing pretty much what the cost of transcripts are.
7 You are a practicing attorney in this jurisdiction. I find 8 that a little hard to accept as an excuse.
9 MR. LOVE: You should meet my boss.
10 (Laughter.)
11 JUDGE HOYT: We will recess then to meet 12 tomorrow morning at 9:30. Any party who may wish to get 4
(A / 13 an earlier transcript will be afforded that opportunity if 14 they wish.
15 (Whereupon, the hearing is recessed at 5:02 p.m.,
16 Monday, July 15, 1985, to reconvene at 9:30 a.m.,
17 Tuesday, July 16, 1985.)
18 * *********
ENDDDDD 19 20 21 22 23 24 d Reporters, Inc.
25
NO PAGE NUMBER CERTIFICATE OF OFFICIAL REPORTER a
This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION in the matter of:
NAME OF PROCEEDING: PIIILADELPIIIA ELECTRIC COMPANY (LIMERICK GENERATING STATION)
DOCKET NO.: 50-332 50-353 I
PLACE: PIIILADELPIII A , PA
(, J DATE: MONDAY, JULY 15, 1985 were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
(sigt) /M -
( %{TL_, , ,/ j_{-, g (TYPED) GARRETT . WALSII, R.
MYRTLE II. WALSil Official Reporter Official Reporter Ace Federal Reporters Reporter's Affiliation
- Ace Federal Reporters 7
-)/t r,. L! (NL"*~ %
MA,RY C. SIMONS Official Reporter Ace Federal Reporters