ML20078L811
| ML20078L811 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Catawba  |
| Issue date: | 07/14/1983 |
| From: | Sifford W DUKE POWER CO. |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20078L617 | List: |
| References | |
| FOIA-83-434 NUDOCS 8310240076 | |
| Download: ML20078L811 (38) | |
Text
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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION BEFORE THE ATOMIC SAFETY AND LICENSING BOARD In the Matter of: : Docket Nos.
DUKE POWER COMPANY, ET AL 50-413 (Catawba Nuclear Station : 50-414 Units 1 and 2)
Deposition of:
Walter Leon Sifford July 14, 1983
[3l 8310240076 830810 Evelyn Berger Associates PDR FOIA sTsworves neronrisa senvier AHLERS83-434 PDR e. o. sox inu l CHARLoTTr. NORTH CAROLINA 28219
I e a L A W Y E R'S NOTES Pase line 1
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-i-I The deposition of Walter Leon Sifford was taken on the 2
14th day of July 1983 at the legal offices of Duke Power 3
Company, 500 South Church Street in Charlotte, North Carolina.
4 APPEARANCES:
5 For Duke Power Company - Ronald L. Gibson, Esq.
951 South Independence Blvd.
6 Charlotte, North Carolina 7
?cr Palmetto Alliance - Robert Guild, Esq. ,
2135 1/2 Devine Street 8
Columbia, South Carolina 29205 8
(The deposition commenced at 11:25 a.m.)
10 MR. GIBSON: Mr. Guitd, this is Mr. Sifford. I assume we are proceeding under the same stipulations, and present for Duke Power are Mr. Bell and Mr. Henry.
WALTER LECN SIFFORD, 14 having been first duly sworn, was examined and deposed as 15 follows:
BY MR. GUILD:
17 0 Mr. Sifford, my name is Lob Guild, and I am counsel for 18 the Palmetto Alliance. We are intervenors in the operating 19 license case for the Catawba station, and I want you to under-
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stand that we have raised questions about quality assurance in 91
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construction at Catawba. Are you aware generally of Palmetto Alliance's position in that issue?
23 A Ver-f general.
24 G With me is Philip Jos,and Betsy Levitis is with Carolina 25 Environments 1 Study Groun harm in charlotte. snd she is running svatvu ennosa associares. ersworres n.contmo senwice. cuantorre. nontw camouma
I a tape recording to maintain a tape of the deposition. I am 2 going to ask you a series of questions, Mr. Sifford, so I can 3 understand work relating to welf m- insoection and quality 4 assurance at Catawba. If I am not clear on a question, if you 5 don't understand, if I am using a term that is not clear, 6 please stop me and ask me to clarify and I will be happy to 7
do that. I want to understand that when the question is 8
asked and an answer appears in the transcript, that your 9
answer was responsive and that you understood the question.
10 Mr. Sifford, I want to show you a document that 11 quotes the text of what has been referred to as contention 6.
12 7ge s the question that we raised about quality assurance.
13 Would you state your full name and business address for 14 the record, please, Mr. Sifford?
15 A Walter Leon Sifford.
16 G And your business address, Mr. Sifford?
17 A I am an employee of Duhe Power Cenp'any, Catawba Nuclear IS
! Station.
19 G And what's your position with the company, sir?
- A I am a welding inspector supervisor.
l
- 1 G Is your title supervising technician?
22 A Supervisor, yes, supervising technician over the welding
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inspectors.
9 G okay.
" A I hooe that's first line, what I call first-line supervicion.
EVELYN SERGER ASSOCIATES. STENOTYPE REPORT 1NG SERytCE CHARLOTTE, NORTM CAmouMA
I Okay, I understand. Mr. Sifford, this is a December 31st, O
2 1982, answer by Duka Power Company to questions that Palmetto 3
Alliance asked in discovery, and I would like for you, sir, 4
to take a few moments and read to yourself the contention which 5
begins at page 3 and goes over to page 4s It's that indented 8
pcrtion, aingle-spaced text, and it goes dcwn to here.
7 (The witness reads the document requested.)
8 0 All right, sir, had you seen that before, Mr. Sifford?
8 A. No, sir, I have not.
I6 0 31r, can you relats for me your employment history with II Duka Power Company, when you startsd with the company, and the I2 best of your reco11 action the dates you held the different I3 jcbs that you have held?
I4 I started to work for Duks Power Company on June 26th, 1
is 1972, started at McGuire Construction site at that time as a I8 With that I worked over into the latter part steel worker.
I probably of October. At that ti=c I applied for and got a 18 transfer to the quality assurance department. At that time I 19 was exposed to the procedures in the quality assurance depart-20 ment, was schooled in the areas of quality assurance, and with 91
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that I stayed in the work area, if you please, as a worker, until approximately October of 1976, at which time I was 9'
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elevated to the position of supervisor with the quality assurar ,ce 24 department. From that time I continued to work at McGuire until June the 13th, 1903. At that time I was transferred to EVELYN SERGER ASSOCIATES. STENOTYPE REPORTING SERVICE. CHARLOTTE, NORTH CAROUNA
1 Catawba Nuclear Station, where I am now stationed.
2 O All right, sir. Let's go back to '72, when you went into 3 the QA department. What was your work in '72 when you went 4 to QA, Mr. Sifford?
5 A I was a weld -- I was hired in the department after the 6
schooling 'fas cenpleted, and after I had passed the test that 7
was required with the schooling, I was a certified welding 8
inspector.
9 G You were visual inspector, Mr. Sifford?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 G Had you worked before as a welding craft, Mr. Sifford?
12 1 Most of my lifa. I have been involved in the welding 13 craft and steel rigging.
14 G Did you do welding work at McGuirs?
15 A As a welder?
16 G As a welder.
II A No, sir.
1 18 G Had you ever been certified to do code welding, nuclear 19 code welding?
- .t I had not been certified to do nuclear. I had not worked 91 on a nuclear plant prior to coming to McGuire. I had been l m
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certified.
l l 93 G What kind of certification did you have, if you recall?
94
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1 I don't exactly know what it was. I have taken different 95
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l tests but I have taken them with outsido contractors.
1 1
EVELYN SERGER ASSOCIATES. STENOTYPE REPORTING SERVtCE. CHARLOTTE. NORTM CAROUNA j
1 l
l l
. -5 1
1 G What kind of welding work had you done before you went to 2 vork for Duke? What kind of jobs were you on?
3 A Some of the jobs I was on?
4 G Yes, when you were doing welding work.
5 A I have been on numerous jobs. With that, I have been on 6 about five ocWer houses.
7 G Okay.
8 A With that, several bridges, a few high-rise buildings, 9 Chesapeake Bridge, numerous jobs. I have worked on several 10 high-rises here in North Carolina with American Bridge Company, 11 which is a subdivision of United States Steel. I have been 12 with them.
13 Doing welding work, Mr. Sifford?
G 14 A Wolding, fitting.
15 Okay.
G 16 A Certain percent of fabrication, yes, all of the time, l
17 continuously in that field.
18 G Okay. When you went to work doing welding inspection at 19 McGuire, were all of the welding inspectors required to have 20 prior craft experience as welders?
21 A They were required to have prior craft experience as welders 22 or have prior experience as inspectors with a nuclear power 23 plant.
24 G Doing welding inspection or any kind of inspection?
25 This would be only those that was hired for visual welding 1
EVELYN SERGER ASSOCIATES. STENOTYPE REPORTING SERVICE. CHARLOTTE. NO8rTH CAROUNA I
1 inspection.
2 g g, hey had to have done prior what kind of inspection work, 3
prior welding inspection?
4 A Yes, it would have been on a nuclear power plant.
5 0 I hava got you. Hov long did you work as a welding 6
incpoctor at "cGuire?
7 A From October of '72 until approximataly October of 1976, 8
which I quoted prior to this.
8 G Then you became a supervisor?
IO A I did.
11 0 Okay. Were you supervisor over welding inspectors then?
19-A I was.
13 0 And were you in the first-level supervisor position, 14 essantially the same position you are new in at Catawba station?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 i G Fow, I am sorry, did I understand that it was 1332 or l
I l 1983 when you transferred over to Catawba?
18 t
I A '83.
19 0 Just this last month then?
l A You are right.
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l G Okay. Now, who is on your crow? What welding inspector, l
l Mr. Sifford? I an going to write thom down so how about slew l
23 down and give ne a list of the people on your crew, please?
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A Thoro was Rick Jones, Carl Souso, Dean 3cntley, Eddie i
l '25
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I'3 e.mo te r . John "?cckheit, TM oi d 7eS w'-a , Keith Da' fin , I cnn't EVELYN 9ERGER ASSOCIATES. STENOTYPE R$ PORTING SERVtCE. CHARLOTTE. NORTH CAROUNA I
r I
think of the other individual at the present time. I can't 2
get my thinking straight.
3 0 We have got seven. How many do you have on your crew?
4 A Eight.
5 G Is there one more missing now?
6 A Yes, it is. All new employees' names are not easy to 7
ramombar.
8 G These are pretty good. Seven out of eight is not bad for 9
one month.
10 MR. GIBSON: Mr. Guild, we have got a list we can show 11 to Mr. Sifford. Maybe he can spot the name, one of the 12 documents produced for discovery.
13 A I mentioned Rick Jones?
14 G Yes, sir.
15 A I have got John Rockholt. I mentioned Dean Bentley and Harc'id 16 Eubanks, Max Reep.
17 0 Mr. Sifford, are you aware that in late ' 81 and early ' 82 18 a good number of welding inspectors at Catawba expressed scne 19 concerns about what Duke called technical and nontechnical 20 matters, lack of support from the QA management, pressure froa l 21
! craft to approve work that inspectors didn't think should be t 22 approved, verbally overriding NCI's that welding inspectors l x1 wrote up, things of that sort, are you aware of those concerns?
94
( A No more than huarsay.
5l 2 -han y;u ;;me to the seu at c2tasse, uma yo2r sogezvisor EVELYN SERGER ASSOctATES. STENOTYPE REPONTING SERVICE. CHARLOTTE. NORTM CAROUNA
_- -g-1 inform you that there had been these concerns expressed?
2 A They did not elaborate on it.
3 G Is that where you heard about it?
4 A No, I always used the grapevine technology, whenever it 5 .comes from anybody anywhere, so I would say I heard it through 8 the grapevine.
7 G All right. New, when you came on at Catawba, who else --
8 I have got a list of the technicians. Was Mr. Ledford already 9 there?
10 & Yos, sir.
11 O Okay. And Mr. Harris?
12 1 yes, sir, 13
% And Mr. Ross and Mr. Deaton?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 0 Okay. So you are the most recent man to ecme over as a 16 first-level supervisor?
17 A I am.
18 G new, did you have any similar concerns, similar to the t
19 ones that I just kind of described by walding inspectors under 20 you when you vera at McGuire?
21 HR. GIBSON: 'Cbjection, Mr. Guild. I!cw is that included
" within the scope of the depositions,0A and CC and welding 23 inspection at Catawba?
24 lin. GUILD: I am trying to lay a foundation for asking the 5 ' fitness a series of questions regarding suocific Catawba work,
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but he has only been at Catawba for a month, and the only way fo r 2
that foundation is through his prior experienca.
3 MR. GIBSON: You are not trying to get what he knows into 4
evidence. You are trying to find out what he knows. I don't 5
think a foundation is necessary. I am not going to let him 6
answer questions about concerns he was or was not aware of at McGuire. I!e can talk to you about Catawba and what he knows 8
about Catawba concerns.
9 MR. GUILD: I don't think there is any way of doing that to without laying that foundation, Counsel.
11 MR. GI3 SON: You can ask him what he knows about them.
12 MR. GUIL3: I would like th~a question answerad the way it la was asked.
14 MR. GIBSON: I am instructing him not to discuss any 15 concerns he was or was not aware of of the nature you described 16 at McGuire.
17
!Ct. GUILD: Let me at least establish whether the answer 18 is affirmative or negative to che question, wheth. he is 19 aware of those -- whether my quaation can be anavered affirma-20 tively or negatively.
21 MR. GIBSCN I am instructing him not to answer the 22 question because we are not going to ge: into that.
23 MR. GUILD: We can work out an agr3ement about whether 24 to get into it or not get into it but I at least want to know 25 ok_gtkar t%m ,nsuyr to y g g n r -, , , ~7 +. wn ,,~.m- 4, nn, 4-han avetva sanaan associares. sianotype asponimo esavies. cuan6orra. nontw camouma
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, obviously there is no further questions that can follow, but, 2
Counsel, there la no way I can ask him questions about this 3
area at Catawba without laying the foundation. He has only 4
been there a month.
5
!!R. GI3 SON: I think you can ask him what he knows about 6
the concerns at Catawba. As I say, I am instructing him and advising him not to answer whether he is or is not aware of any 8
similar concerns, as you have described them, at McGuire.
9 MR. GUILD: Well, wa might as well adjourn the deposition 10 because thare is no point in asking -- if I can't lay that 11 foundation, I can't ask him any questions about anything that has to do with his opinion.
13 MR. GI3SCN Are you saying you can't ask him questions 14 about concerns at Catawba unless you find out whether or not 4
15 there were similar concerns at McGuire? You indicated you 16 needed a yes or no answsr.
17 0 Do you know anything about the welding concerns at 18 Catawba?
19 L Not at all familiar with them.
20 MR. GUILD: Counsel, unless I can establish a foundation al
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of what he does know and his experience, I can't ask him to
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express opinions. I can't ask him to cc==ont on procedures.
93
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I can't ask him to reflect on changes by ccmparison between 94
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h!.s enperienca at !!cGuiro and enperienca at Catawba. I asn' t 95
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ack him anyehin7 Un mf 7he nn en?1 a d j m t-n kh n Anpn=4*4nn avstyn senaan associares. svenorves nepowrina senvice. cuantorre, e owrn camouma
-- _ . _ _ , _ . . . _ . , ~ _ _ - _ . _ _ _ _ _- _ . _ _
1 and seek a ruling on the mattar. I just can't go any further.
2 IG. GI3 SON: I am not sure I understand what you mean 3
by laying a foundation. *dould you say that again?
4 MR. GUILD: I would desire to ask Mr. Sifford a series of 5
questions about the quality assurance in welding at Catawba, 6
but I can't do that, since he doesn't know about the concerns expressed by the welding, he has only been there a month, 8
without laying a foundation about what his knouledge and ,
9 experience is to express an opinion. That knowledge and exper-10 lance is obviously again seme place other than at Catawba.
11 Now, if you had worked for Carolina Power and Light Company as a welding inspector first-lina supervisor, thera is no 13 question I could establish a base of his knowledge and 14 experience. This man happens to have worked for Duke Power 15 Company at the McGuire station, and that's where his base of 16
. knowledge and experience is. It seems inescapable to me, the l
17 only way to probe that is to ask him that question.
18 MR. GI3 SON: Ycu are saying, just trying to widerstand 19 you, without knowing whether he has some knowledge about 20 similar or diasimilar concerns somewhere else, you don't i 21 l feel like you can ask him questions about what he knows about 22 Catawba.
l 23 MR. GUILD: I can't ask him to e:: press an opinion in the 1
24 vacuum without --
, 25 i
q g- m~;, aky uc 1A %4, ,7 4 3 m ,h mt " th e concerns EVELYN gERGER ASSCCIATES, STENOTfPE REPORTING SEmytCE. CHARLOTTE. NORTM CAROUNA
, I aven be evidance in the procedure?
2 MR. GUILD: Obviously you are putting him in a position --
3 you, I mean the company, puts Mr. Sifford in a position of 4
supervising welding inspection, insuring that it maets 5
10 CFR, appendix 3, being sure it's consistent with your 6
written procedures at Catawba, et cetera, et cetera. I 7
assume you purport Mr. Sifford is doing his jcb to make sure 8
the Catawba plant is built right. I can't probe that without 9
establishing his base of knowledge and experiences, period.
10 MR. GIDSON: I am going to confer with Mr. Sifford and Mr.
11 Henry before deciding that.
12 MR. GUILD: All right.
13 (Mr. Gibson conferred with the witness.)
14 MR. GI3SCN Mr. Guild, I think wa need to try to strike 15 a balance between our intent to hold this deposition within 16
, the scope of Catawba. I will allow him to answer what I under-l 17 l stand to be your question au posed, but let'a have it clear 18 we are not going to go into a detailed analysis of what 19.
I has or is going on at McGuire. Let's take it question by 20 question.
21 G Let me try again, Mr. Sifford. The concerns that I have 22 l
related that you heard about through the grapevino expressed i s I by welding inspectors at Catawba, were any similar concerns --
24 were you avaro of any similar concerns in your axperience at 25 M ?ll:2?
syntyn ermoen AssociATas. sTawOrype Re>ORTING SERytCE. CHARLOTTE. NORTH CAROUNA l
l l
f
, I A I would like for you to define " concerns" just a little 2
if you don't mind.
3 G All right, sir. Are you aware specifically of concerns 4
at McGuire about verbally voiding NCI's?
5 A There were none.
6 G okay.
A So my answer would definitely be a no.
8 G Okay. Were you aware of any concerns at McGuire, McGuire 9
inspectors being harassed by a craft?
10 A No.
11 G All right. Any concerns of inspectora being instructed I
to approve work that they didn't agree with?
13 A No, i
G Ckay. Accept weld that they didn't think it was acceptab:.e ,
15 sign off on a weld that they didn't agree with?
16 A No.
17 G How about concern that they weren't getting adequate 18 support from the supervisor in doing their inspection work?
A Clarify the question.
20 G Craft would override their objections to work and \ s
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21 that their supervision, the QA supervision, would back a craft.
22 and not the welder, not the welding inspector?
23 l
A Would you ask me that in the form of a question.
I 24 l G Sure. Were you aware of any people at McGuire expressing thne annearn; 'tv - A4ffnyM?
svetyn asnosa associares. siswones aerontma seavice. cuantorra. monrw camouna
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1 g go, 2
G Okay. Well, those concerns were expressed at Catawba, 3
and you heard that through the grapevine, and maybe otherwise.
4 Do you have an opinion why those concerns arose at Catawba 5
and not at McGuire? Why were welding inspectors complaining 6
about these things at Catawba and not McGuire?
7 A My opinion would be one that -- the difference in human 8
nature.
9 G Okay. Human nature among the inspectors?
- 1 People.
11 O Just generally people, all of the people involved in the I2 situation?
I3 A Well, I am just saying people react different to different I4 things.
15 G Okay.
- A Depending on the surrounding circumstances. My priorities ;
II change every minute, and I may react a little different here I8 than I would somewhere else, virtually not that much.
i I9 G What I want to focus on -- appreciate that -- what I want i
to focus on, Mr. Sifford, are those circumstances, those facts
-91 and circumstances, or anything different that you know about 2
in the circumstances at McGuire as compared to Catawba. Lay 93
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aside the human nature part of it now. Was the work done any l
24 Mifferent at McGuire than at Catawba, as far as you know, j 25 that would account for that?
P EVELYN SERGER ASSOCIATES. STENOTYPE REPORTING SERveCE CHARLOTTE. NORTM CAROLINA
. 1 g go, 2
0 okay. Were procedures any different at McGuire as compared 3
to Catawba that could account for that?
4 A The only thing that I would know about, maybe the heading 5
change, Catawba versus McGuire in that case.
6 0 What do you mean by that, the heading change?
I A one procedure-- procedure used to have referred to a 8
particular site as a McGuire site, a Catawba site. Now most of 8
them don't refer to a site at all.
I G In terms of the QA_ procedures now you are talking about?
A Yea, 12 G Okay. Well, so one set of procedures had Catawba at the 13 top, and one had McGuire at the top?
I4 A That's the only difference.
15 G The procedures are the same as far as you know?
16 A They are.
, G All right, sir, so there is no difference in the way i
18
! the work was done. There is no difference in the procedures, 19 just a difference in the people?
20 A We find it everywhere we go.
91 G What about the difference in the people at Catawba in your judgmar.c sceounts for the difference in the experience 93
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of a large number of welding inspectors at Catawba expressing 24 these concerns and none of them being expressed at McGuire?
25 What is it. Mr. Sifford?
l EvELYN BERGER ASSOCIATES. STENOTYPE REPORTING SERVICE. CHARLOTTE. NORTM CAROUN4
1 A some of it could, if there is any, it could be the 2 youth of the inspectors.
3 G At Catawba or McGuire?
4 A Yes, at Catawba versus McGuire.
5 % okay. Is it your opinion that generally the inspectors 6 at Catawba are younger than the ones at McGuire?
7 A No, I am talking about the time frame and the inspection.
8 G I don't understand. Tell me.
9 A Well, if I meet you out here on the street for ten years, 10 we pretty well know the street, we know where the hole is in 11 the street, and we know what constitutes satisfactory driving, 12 but if it is my first time up the street, I have to get 13 acquainted with it, and this is the type of issue I am looking 14 at.
15 0 okay. Those kind of things, those experience things, 16 the bugs, so to speak, have been worked out at McGuire and f.
' 17 not at Catawba, is that generally what you mean, in terms 18 of inspectioni 19 A A few of the bugs probably came in frem, whenever I go l
20 back to the youth a little bit on that thing, the youth to me 21 is the inexperience that we talk about. At McGuire the 22 individual was - he came from the welding craft. Some experiinnce 23 in the welding craft had been 10 or 15 years, and then he l
l 24 changed over, and it was his ability to know a good weld whenever 25 he put it in, in essence the same putting the filament material i systvN esRosR Associates. sTsNOTYPE REPORTING SERVICE. CHARLOTTE. NORTM CARQUNA
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I in, and if you take the individual that maybe is inexperienced 2
as an actual welder every time, it's very hard for him to under -
stand what it really takes in every case to make a good 4
acceptable, X-ray acceptable wold.
5 And you think the people at McGuire were more experienced 6
as actual welders than the people at Catawba, in your opinion?
7 A. Certainly that is only an opinion, yes.
8 MR. GIBSON: Are you referring to the inspectors having 9 experience as welders or the weldars have more experience?
10 We are talking about inspectors new, aren't wa?
0 II A. Yes, we are talking about inspectors.
12 0 So let me understand this. How would a less experienced 13 -- let's say you have got a less experienced welding inspector 14 at Catawba, less experienced as a welder, how would he be 15 more likely to have problems with procedures or find more work 16 that he didn't think was acceptable than somebody who was more 17 experienced at McGuire? What do you think?
18 A. Well, a vebfsimple thing in that case could be something 19 as minute as weld spatter. Weld spatter could be dropped 20 from an elevation above. It's had time to cool in the droppinc 21 process, and when I talk about cool, I am talking about going l 22 from a molten state to a solid state. It's had time almost to l
23 reach absolute solid state. It hits on a piece of paper and 24 adheres to the pipe at this point, and he may see that as 25 detrin1 ental. It ain't. It's just not there, and it's a proven EVELYN SERGER ASSOCIATES. STENOTYPE REPORTING SERVICE. CMARLOTTE NOprTM CAROUNA
1 fact throogh X-ray, through metallurgy, through chemical 2 analysis, that has no absolute bearing on that particular piece 3 of pipe, and his inexperience of realizing this through working 4 with the process very well could put him where lots of things 5 are unacceptable compared to acceptables. There is probably 6 numerous other things that we could jerk out of the bag on 7 those things that would fall in those type of things.
8 g All right. Now, you know that by July of '81 the company 9 reclassified the position of welding inspector? They do that to at McGuire as well as Catawba?
11 A Reclassify in what fashion?
12 0 They did a job position analysis and changed the welding i3 inspector pay grade, for one.
14 A Yes, I am aware.
I 15 g Okay. Now, do you understand that before that pay grade is change, welding inspectors have been required to have a specific l 17 amount of welding craft experience before they were allowed 18 to be certified as a welding inspector?
l ig A Yes.
29 0 Okay. And afterwards they substituted training in place 23 of that craft experience?
l 22 A Schooling and training, yes.
l 23 % okay, g4 A Practical experience behind someone or with. somebody else j g monitoring it.
EVELYN SERGER ASSOCIATES. STENO 1TPE REPORTING SERvlCE. CHARLOTTE. NORTM CAROUNA
1 G On-the-job training?
2 A Yes.
3 Okay. Following a certified inspector around, helping G
4 him te do his work?
5 A I always like to look at it the other way. The certified 6 man is following him.
7 0 okay.
8 A You can't get no hands-on training if you don't put your 9 hands on them.
10 0 So actually doing inspection with a certified man?
11 A Right.
12 O But in any event, the experience that you had was not 13 experience in doing actual welds yourself because they didn't 14 require that any more, or welding inspectors, right, after they 15 did the reclassification, you didn't have to have welding craft 16 . experience to be a welding inspector?
17 A Agreeable. That's the way I understand it.
18 0 Most of the welding inspectors still have welding 19 experience, right? I am not asking you to count them up. I 20 am saying most of them.
21 A Yes. Now, I am not familiar with those at Catawba per 22 se, the background, excluding those that was transferred down, 23 so I can't -- I hope that that percentage I have got in my 24 mind doesn't reflect every case down there on a case basis, 25 where I am giving you any false information. The only thing I EVELYN BERGER ASSOCIAff 5. STENOTYPE REPORTING SERvtCE. CHARLO*TE. NORTH CAROUNA E.
1 am looking at are those I am aware of.
i 2 G Those that you are aware, and that's true at McGuire, 3 you already had a crew of people on who had been hired on earlier, 4 and they stayed on, and so there wasn't a sudden change 5 overnight of suddenly bringing on all welding inspectors who 6 didn't have craf t experience, but a few came in, right?
7 A Yes.
8 G Okay.
9 A Now, let me clarify that yes statement just a little bit to because you asked two or three questions as far as what I am 11 concerned in what you say. In clarification of that, I have 12 ncne of the employees at catawba that I had at McGuire.
13 0 Fine. Well, I am just picking on what you have been it telling me, Mr. Sifford, and what I am trying to understand 15 is, how is it that you didn't lose out in qualifications of is welding inspectors if those welding inspectors don't have l
L 17 to have any welding experience, and you have already told me is you think that welding experience is important.
ig A I don't know -- I didn't want to lead you to the understand-m ing that it is all that important. Whenever I came out of high 21 school, college has changed since then, and the things that 22 were acceptable now were not acceptable then, and I am 1
23 saying by that, you can get the same quality out of an 24 individual, depending on the way that you school him.
l
.>3 0 okay, i
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1 A And these individuals that we talk about, that you mentioned 2 before, to the standpoint why did they find things unacceptable ,
3 there is numerous little details that can't be picked up in 4 a very short frame of time, and these individuals may very 5 well have already been out there, maybe should have consulted 6 at this particular point, if he had some real small minute 7 looking thing, or whenever it was. You might even need to 8 talk to another first-line inspector at that point because 9 his point might not have been at all valid on that thing, and to at that time maybe those things needed to be discussed with 11 other individuals, if necessary, because I see life a training 12 ground, and, if you please, I am just hitting another milestone 13 today by sitting here looking eye to eye to you.
14 0 He all learn something.
15 A Right on, so I am saying that this employee can be picking 16 .up continuously. I pick up occasionally on something.
17 0 Well, I want to talk to you about that stuff. What I 18 want to kind of hold us on for a moment is this questien of l 19 craft experience because I am interested in your opinicn on 20 the subject of the importance or lack of importance of having 21 craft welding experience to do a good job inspecting welds.
22 Let!s talk a little bit about NDE inspection. Have you ever m been over NDE inspection? Have you ever supervised nondestruct ive l
24 examinations?
5 A I~have.
EVELYN SE RGER ASSOCMTES. STENOTYPE REPORTING SSRvtCE. CHARLOTTE, NORTM CAROUNA
1 O Okay. Now, you continue to do that now? You are over 2 visual inspection now, right?
3 A I have visual certification. I have had a PT certificatien.
4 G What is PT now?
5 A Liquid penetrant.
6 G Okay. A number of welding inspectors at Catawba, their 7 background is not in welding, their background is doing NDE 8 examination. It came over from doing NDE inspecticn, got trained 9 and certified and are now visual inspectors. Do you have any 10 of those on your crew?
11 A I do.
12 G Give me an example of who they are.
13 A Again I have got to kind of watch this thing because 14 everything is new and I have run over certificaticn as far as 15 the individual certification, his level and so on and so forth.
16 O Just your best recollection.
I 17 A But I have Max Reep and John Rockholt and Rick Jcnes, l
- 18 Carl Sousa. All of these are certified in the PT, scme of them 19 in PT level 2, some of them in PT maybe level 1 or 2, whichever i
l s> the same thing holds true,.
i i 21 O Now, all of those people you are talking about, they are 22 not all just certified -- let me start agaits. Some of those 23 PeoP l e worked as welders too, didn't they? Do you kncw?
24 A Yes, we have several of them that worked as welders prior i
(
- s to going aboard, if you please, with the OA department.
EVELYN WERGER ASSOCIATES. STENOTYPE REPORTING SERVICE. CHARLOTTE. MONTM CAROUNA I
i
1 O What I am intereste d in the question I have is, do you 2 have any welding inspecto s that you know of who never worked 3 as welders but whose prior work was in the NDE area and they 4 came over to be welding inspectors?
5 A Well, I think that is true with probably several of those --
6 maybe Max Reep in this case and maybe Rick Jones. I can't a 7 hundred percent say on this stuff.
8 0 All right. Well, focus on then, if they are examples, 9 and maybe they are not, but someone who has done what I have 10 just described, they never worked as a welder ar.d they have 11 worked as an NDE inspector and they came over to get certified 12 as a visual, if you hold everything else equal, okay, Mr.
13 Sifford, can they do es good a job inspecting welds as semeone 14 who actually has made welds?
15 A My answer to that would be yes, and the reason is that 16 welding inspection or any inspection that the Duke Pcwor Syster ,
17 has set up is nothing more or nothing less than following rules 18 and regulations, and I guess I kind of want to look at it like 19 whenever we passed our driver's license exam, if you pl3ase, 20 the reason that we passed is because we abided by the rules, 21 not because we were professional drivers. We tcok the test anc.
22 we were given the opportunity but the real sequence or the 23 real factor in the thing is our abilities to take the test in 24 accordance with rules and abide by the rules. And this holds 25 true with anything, in my estimation. It's how well the individua.
EVELYN SERGER ASSOCIATE S. STENOTYPE REPORTING SERVICE. CHARLOTTE. NORTH CAROUNA
1 may be schooled in his abilities to follow rules.
2 O Okay.
3 A now, we do with these sert of what we want to se=etimes.
4 I am not talking about -- let me back up and rephrase that because 5 you can get the wrong interpretatien en what I just said. We 6 do with rules scretimes around the hcuse, or fire prevention, 7 anything we want to name, sort of what we want to with it, 8 not Duke Power rules. I want to get that clear new. We don't 9 deal with Duke Pcwer rules what we want to. They are set up, to and we are to follow them, and anything any less, we are not 11 being paid for what we ought to, and we are not attempting to.
12 O Mr. Gibson here and me and lets of other lawyers cut there 13 whose job it is to generate stacks and stacks of paper and i4 figure out what these rules mean, Mr. Sifford.
15 A I understand, te G My point is this, someone has got to have judgment and l 37 experience to be able to intelligently take a piece of paper
- is that has a written rula en it and knew what it means and make ig it make sense. Don't you agree with that?
m A I do, and with two different pecple you still may ccee up l 21 with two different epinions.
l l 22 0 I am talking about welding inspection. You take screbcdy 23 who is off the street and you teach him all those rules, and 24 he remorizes them and he can spout them out back and fcrth, 25 but he is leching at a weld. Now, is it your opinion, Mr.
EVELYN BERGER AS3OCIATES. STENOTYPE REPORTING SERVICE. CHARLOTTE. MONTH CARouMA
s
- 1 Sifford, that a man who can memori=e those procedures backward 2 and forward and knows the rules can do as effective a job inspect-3 ing a weld as a man who knows how to make a weld, a welder?
4 A Run that by me again because I lost a little bit there in 5 maybe a word or two.
6 G Okay. A man kncws what the procedures are, he knows what 7
the standards are, can he do as good a job as a man who knows g all these rules and procedures but also knows how to do the work, 9 he knows how to weld?
w A I think with the schooling we have, yes, and the reason --
11 let me elaborate on that just a hair.
12 G Sure.
13 A The reason is, that we have got ceupens being set up, u coupons being small tests to show the rights and the wrcngs.
We have some that says unacceptable versus acceptable. But 33 ig they are set up -- seme of them is acceptable versus unacceptabla.
l 17 For example, if we had undercutting, undercut being a less ig amount of base metal right near the weld -- if we had an under-i g cut and it exceeds what the procedure says, it's autcmatically g unacceptable.
og
~
G Okay.
t i
A And all the individual does at that particular point 22 g
is visually, we gain 85 percent of our knewledge by visual, g,
he looks at the thing, he determines at that point that it does exceed the allowable amount, that would make it unacceptable 3
l EVELYN SERGER ASSOCIATES. STENOTYPE REPORTING SERVICE. CHARLOTTE. NORTM CAROUNA
- -- __~
- 1 if it did.
2 O Okay.
3 A or vice versa.
4 0 okay. Well then, let me finish this point. When I asked 5 you the first line of questions about the difference between
-6 McGuire and Catawba, as you figured it anyway, you told me you 7 thought that it might be accounted for because of the lack of 8 experience by the youth, so to speak, of the inspectors at 9 Catawba versus McGuire, and you explained that to me, I thought ,
10 in terms of the McGuire people having more axperience as welders.
11 I thought you were telling me that was important, and I under-12 stood you to say it was important.
13 Now, am I just missing the point, Mr. Sifford, when you i
14 are new telling me you don't think it is i=portant in this area?
l 15 A No, I don't think you are missing the point. I think what 16 is really happening in the thing -- let's be realistic on the thing. You and I weren't born in the nuclear age, do we agree?
l 17 is % True, 19 A By not being born in the nuclear age, we did not and 20 no one had all of the answers whenever we come aboard with 2i nuclear power, and by not having the answers, all of us have e learned through experiences, and with that we had some real gocd 23 answers, we had seme near excellent answers by having the 24 individual, prior to all of the schooling background that we go 3 through new. You see, when we started this program off, there EVELYN SERGER ASSOCIATES. STENOTYPE REPORTING SERVICE. CHARLOTTE. MONTM CAROUNA
=
I weren't a stack of books up on this end of this table, if we o
~
put them on the end of this table out here, whenever we started this program off. I am not saying nuclear power was started 4
in 1970, 1972. It started prior to that, but all I am saying is ,
5 we used the available tools that we had up until that time.
8 The available tool was an individual with welding background, 7
and now we have got books and schooling and directions, and it 8 works out identically, it works out identically the same as your 9 I am sure as soon as they started that thing, law degree.
to they could probably have recorded everything in that magazine.
11 Seriously, let's go back --
12 I am not sure it's any better today.
0 13 A I am going to let you decice that. You carry the law 14 I am not carrying the degree.
degree.
15
! 4 Sure, okay.
16 .A I am respecting your degree.
17 G So am I understanding you are saying basically in the process l 18 of getting this program off the ground, you have learnad that 19 you can do as effective a job through schooling and training as W you thought you had to do through using experienced people before?
21 Is that basically it?
22 A It was a good time to use experienced people before because 23 we didn't have the schooling and the training, and I see new that 24 the schooling and the training does so much for us -- it 5 does what our archaeologists does with scme of our land. He EVELYN SERGER ASSOCIATES, STENOTYPE REPORTING SERVICE. CMARLOTTE. NORTM CAROUNA
1 determines the age of the thing by some method of calculation, 2
j,if you please, and by some reading and schooling, so new we 3 are at a point where we use reading and schooling to determine 4 what needs to be done in the inspection program, in comparison 5 to letting the John Doe, if you please, put some of his old 6 basics into the thing.
7 Okay.
G 8 MR. GIDSON: Mr. Guild, it is 12:20. Would continuing 9 for a short while finish?
10 MR. GUILD: Let's take a lunch break and come back about 11 1:30, 12 (Thereupon, the lunch recess was. taken frem 12:20 p.m.
13 to 1:35 p.m.)
14 0 Mr. Sifford, you have Mr. Reep working for you, don't 15 you?
16 A I do, Mr. Max Reep.
17 0 And Mr. Reep, I understand, filed a harassment complaint.
18 Are you aware of Mr. Reep's harassment complaint?
19 A No, sir, I am not.
m o That's the first you heard of it?
21 A It is.
r G You have Mr. Rockholt working for you?
23 A I do.
24 n Now, let me understand this. Whose crew was Mr. Rcckholt 25 in when you transferred over to McGuire?
&/ELYN SERGER ASSOCIATES. STENOTYPE REPORTING SERVICE. CHARLOTTE. NORTM CAROUNA
1 A Well, I believe you better rephrase the question. I 2
didn't transfer to McGuire.
3 0 When you transferred from McGuire.
A He was in Mr. Ross's crew.
5 0 Okay. Now, did all of the rest of the welding 6
inspectors under you now, Mr. Sifford, transfer over from 7
someone else's crew when you came over from McGuire, or did 8 you take someone else's place when you came over?
9 A It was a split. They split Beau Ross's crew.
10 0 Okay.
11 A And I don't know exactly how many employees was in Beau 12 Ross's crew, but I have eight.
13 0 Okay. And who got the rest of them? Do you knew?
14 A Beau still has them. ,
15 g He kept the other half of them?
l 16 .A He kept the other amount, whatever the amount is. I am l
17 not really sure offhand. I have got an idea but I don't know.
18 G You took eight from him though? That's where your eight 19 came from, is that what you understand?
N A Yes, I did.
21 O Okay. Why did they do that? Do you know? What was your j W understanding as to why they split Ross's crew?
I
! 23 A No specifics given on the thing. My general opinion would l' '
L "24 be that the size of the crew probably was-the reasoning for it.
l ..
5 "O Did he have more on his crew than the others, as far as l
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1 you know?
2 A What little I know about it, yes.
3 0 Okay. How does your crew in size compare to the crews of 4 the other supervisors, first-level supervisors? Do the rest of 5 them have about eight?
6 A I have the general opinion that they are about the same 7 size, and I don't know how many employees the other supervisors 8 have in their group.
9 0 But as far as you know, your opinion is about the same?
10 A As far as I know, they are equal, to be honest with you.
11 0 okay. Do you have any understanding of who decided which 12 inspectors from Mr. Ross's crew would come over under you when 13 you transferred in? Who split up Mr. Ross's crew? Who 14 decided who went to you and who stayed?
15 A As far as I know, upper management determined that.
16 0 Who would that have been?
I 17 A I would have to assume that it come under the t
18 jurisdiction of whoever was the second-line supervisor or 19 before I got there.
20 0 Okay. Who is the second-line supervisor now?
1 21 A Mr. Fred Bulgin is my supervisor.
l 22 0 okay. And he was there when you got there, Mr. Bulgin 2a was?
24 A No, sir, he and I went the same time.
25 g He came over from McGuire with you?
! aveov~ eme. ..sociares. stimorne .onr ..mnce. enmorr . wo.rw c..ous.
1 A He did.
2 0 Okay. And did you work for Mr. Bulgin when you were at 3 McGuire?
4 A I did.
5 0 And you understand that Mr. Art Allum was in Mr. Bulgin's 6 position before he came?
7 A I do.
8 g You understand or assume that it was Mr. Allum that decided 9 how the split of Beau Ross's crew would be done?
10 A Your guess is as good as mine. I really don't knew and I 11 really didn't pursue that.
12 0 Okay. Would it have been his job, as far as you know, or 13 scmeone above him?
14 A Well, I would say that it would have been his job, that it l
15 came through him at least.
I 16 0 Okay. It wasn't Mr. Dulgin's decision anyway? You knew 17 that? Mr. Bulgin didn't decide how Mr. Ross's crew would be is split up and who you would get?
19 A I can't answer that, I am sorry.
20 0 You just don't know?
21 A I don't know.
22 0 He might have?
23 A He might have.
24 0 Okay. Did he tell you? Did Mr. Bulgin say "Here is how l
25 you are going to get your crew assigned," or words to that effect?
l EVELYN EERGER ASSOctATES. STENOTYPE REPORTING SERVICE. CMARLOTTE. NORTM CAROUNA
1 A No, sir.
2 Who did you get the word from?
O 3 A Well, I got the word that thatwould be my crew, and 4 excluding that, I don't know. What we really did on the thing, 5 in essence, to say we split it in accordance to jobs, if you 6 please, reactor 1 versus reactor 2.
7 G Okay.
8 A I took on reactor 2.
9 O Okay. And who got reactor 17 10 A Mr. Beau Ross.
11 G Did y'all work the same shifts, you and Mr. Ross?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 O Which shift do you work?
14 A First shift.
15 S Okay. Are the other first-level supervisors on the first 16 shift or are they on another shif t?
17 A At the present time they are all on the first shift.
18 0 Okay. Is there a welding inspection done on other shifts?
19 A There is twoinspectors on the second shift right now.
m O Okay. Who do they work for?
21 A Mr. Ross, and there may be, it just may be one somewhere 22 else that I am not aware of, and there is second line or there 23 is first-line supervision on the second shif t but they are not 24 classified as welding inspection supervision, although ties 25 hand in hand.
EbELYN WERGER ASSOCIATES. STENOTYPE REPORTING SERVICE, CHARLOTTE NORTM CARQUNA
i 1
4 Who does the first level -- I am sorry, who does -- yes, 2 the first-level supervision on second shift?
3 A I believe it is Mr. Dennis Cabe.
4 0 Okay. Does he do MDE's as well? Do you know?
5' A He does RT.
6 0 Okay. What's your opinion of Mr. Rockholt's work?
7 A I guess I would want you to elaborate on opinion in this 8 case a minute.
9 g Well, you have been on the job for a month and you have 10 had an opportunity to supervise Mr. Rockholt, haven't you?
l 11 A I have.
12 g Okay. And as a superviser, it's your responsibility to 13 evaluate your men's work, is it not?
14 A It is.
! 15 0 I just want you to give me an evaluation of your opinion 16 .of Mr. Rockholt's work. Is it good, bad, indifferent? Is he 17 competent, commendable? Is it marginal? What is your opinion l
18 of Mr. Reckholt's work?
l 19 A What inspection I work behind him on, and his conscientious-20 ness to procedures, my interpretation a: this time is that he is 21 a very competent individual, attentive to detail.
l 22 G Do you have any criticism of Mr. Rockholt's work?
l 23 A At the present time?
24 G Yes.
25 A No, sir, I do not.
EVELYN BERGER ASSOCIATES. STENOTYPE REPORTING SERVICE, CHARLOTTE NORTM CAROWNA
1 O Okay. Are you aware of any criticism of Mr. Rockholt's 2 work, either now or at any time?
3 A NO, sir, I am not.
4 0 Okay. I am going to show you a series of documents made 5 available to us. On top is a June 27th, 1983, memorandum from 6 tir. Grier to Mr. Alexander and Mr. Davison, and there is a 7 couple underneath it as well, and it relates to Mr. Rockholt.
8 Have you seen those, Mr. Sifford?
9 A No,. sir, I have not. Do I need to read this?
10 g No, you don't. There is a series of the document, on 11 the back of the document, thare is a handwritten document.
12 It is a complaint by Mr. Rockholt concerning Mr. Allum. Were 13 you aware that Mr. Rcckholt had ccmplained concerning Mr.
14 Allum?
15 A Yes, I am.
16 0 You knew about that before I showed you these documents?
17 A I am thinking back to the cliche I knew about it through is the grapevine, through hearsay.
19 0 Mr. Allum is now -- is no longer a supervising welding go inspector, is that right? He is over ND?
21 A That's right. I thought he was over mechanical.
22 g Mechanical?
g A Dut I am not sure.
24 0 Okay. Do you have an opinion about Mr. Reckholt's 3
. ccmplaint about Mr. Allum?
EVELYN SERGER ASSOCIATES. STENCTYPE REPORTING SERVICE. CHARLOTTE. NORTH CAROUNA
1 A. I don't guess I do because to me it's one-sided, probably 2
one-sided grapevine is all I have heard.
3 0 Which side -- give me an idea which side you heard.
4 I haven't A I guess I probably heard some of Rcckholt's.
5 heard a thing from the other side.
6 g Do you have any responsibility for acting on that cceplaint?
7 A Sir?
8 Is any part of your job responding to that ccmplaint or G
9 acting on that complaint?
10 A I feel like, since I have been chosen to be a supervisor, 11 I feel like it would be some of my responsibility to not promote 12 fictional things but rather promote factual things, and until 13 I have both sides, I don't have anything but ficticn, in 14 essence, to say.
15 g Okay.
16 1 I don't know if you really want to say it's fiction, but 17 it's the type of thing I should never elaborate on until I 18 have both sides of the issue. Just because I have one side 19 doesn't make anything fictional.
20 0 This is the comment that Ms. Horne, the employee relations 21 assistant, has in her meno. "We discussed the fact," and she 22 was meeting with Mr. Rockholt, and she says, "We discussed the a fact that beginning Monday, June 13th,1983, John would have 24 a new supervisor, Hap Sifford. Also new would be .Pred Bulgin 25 and Gerry Goodman. John said he greatly respected and supportc d EVELYN SERGER ASSOCIATES. STSNOTYPE RSPORTING SERVICE. CHARLOTTE. NORTM CAROUNA
1 George Grier and Larry Davison and was looking forward to 2 working with his new supervisor. John doesn't intend to bring 3 this issue up again. He has no desire to be labeled a trouble-4 maker. He feels like it is his duty to bring this prchlem 5 to management's attention." Have you had any problems with 6 Mr. Rcckholt, have you?
7 A No, sir.
8 0 Okay. Here is a memo. It's June 2nd, 1983. It's
! 9 regarding Mr. Feemster. Mr. Feemster works for you?
10 A He does.
11 O I want you to take a look at that and tell me first if 12 you have ever seen that before er not. It's again Ms. Horne, ta employee relations, her memo.
14 A No, sir, I have not.
15 g Okay. Are you aware of Mr. Feemster having cencorns about is lack of support from management?
17 A It seems as though I may have heard him say -- make seme is brief comment on that thing but I believe I am not in a position ig to elaborate to the standpoint that I don't even remember letting 2o that record in my mind.
21 O He didn't bring any of those to your attention?
23 A No, sir, he did not bring it to my attention.
l l 23 Q Okay. Is Mr. Feemster a competent welding inspector, in 24 ycur opinion?
25 A Extremely sc.
l l
EVELYN SERGER ASSOCIATES STENOTYPE REPORTING SERVICE. CHARLOTTE. NORTM CAROUNA 6- )
, . 1 0 Okay.- Do you have any criticism of his work? <
2 1 No, I do not.
3 G Okay. That's all I have. Mr. Sifford, I appreciate it.
4 I thank you for answering my questions. That's all I have.
5 BY MR. GIBSON:
6 G Mr. Sifford, are you aware of anything that.would cause 7 you to question whether the Catawba Nuclear Station is safely 8 built?
9 A Run the question by me again.
10 0 Are you aware of any':hing that would cause you to question 11 whether the Catawba Nuclear Station is safely built?
l 12 i Uc, sir, not one iota at the present ti=e.
13 MR. GI? SON: Anything further, Mr. Guild?
14 MR. GUILD: Not from me.
15 (Thereupon, the deposition was concluded at 1:55 p.m.)
16 l
l l t7 18 l
19 20 21 22
\ 23 l 24 i
25 EVELYN SERGER ASSOCIATES. STENOTYPE REPORTING SERVfCE. CHARLOTTE. NORTM CANOWNA L /
.. 1 I, Walter Leon Sifford, hereby certify that I have read 2 and understand the foregoing transcript and believe it to be 3 a true, accurate and complete transcript of my testimony.
4 Walter Leon Sifford 5
6 This d3 position was signed in my presence by Walter Leon 7 Sifford on the day of 1983.
8 Notary Public 9
to CERTIFICATE t1 I, Ann P. Harris, court reporter and notary public, do
[ 12 la hereby certify that the foregoing 37 pages are a true, accurate and complete transcript of the proceedings during ths deposition I 14 of Walter Leon Sifford, that Mr. Sifford was duly sworn prior 15 to the taking of his deposition, and that the parties were 16 present as stated.
17 I also certify that I am not of counsel for nor in the 18 employment of any of the parties, and that I am not it,terested, 19 either directly or indirectly, in the outcome of the proceeding 3.
20 This 22nd day of July 1983.
2L n, k Ann P. Harris - Notary Public
!G / A v.a 22 State of North Carolina County of Mecklenburg 23 My commission expires:
24 June 30, 1986 25 EVELYN SERGER ASSOCIATES. STENOTYPE REPORTING SERVICE. CHARLOTTE. NORTH CAmouMA
- -. A__ _ _ __ . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ _