ML20238A363
| ML20238A363 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Comanche Peak  |
| Issue date: | 03/20/1986 |
| From: | Sutton J NRC OFFICE OF INSPECTION & ENFORCEMENT (IE REGION IV) |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20237F760 | List:
|
| References | |
| NUDOCS 8708200465 | |
| Download: ML20238A363 (43) | |
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SWORN STATEMENT OF JAMES SUTTON March 20, 1986 7:00 p.m.
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LOCATION: Glenrose Inn ,
Glenrose, Texas TAKEN BY: George Mulley .
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5 Attachment GG 8708200465 870819~
PDR ADOCK 05000445 FE REPORTING SERVICT, (713) 222-7177 G PDR. .
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2' 1 JAMES SUTTON 1
2 was duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth and
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3 nothing but the truth.
4 EXAMINATION
. 5 By Mr. Mulley:
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'j 6 Q okay, the tame is 7:00 o' clock. Today is-March 7 the 20th, 1986. We're in room 153, the Glentose Motor Inn, i
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l 8 in Glenrose, To:tas. Pre 6 4.t' are Mr. James Sutton, George
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9 Mulley with the office of Inspector and Auditor, NRC, Mr.
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10 Pat Tate, the court reporter.
, 11 Mr. Sutton, would you first give us your present 12 job position and some of your background?
i ( 13 A ' At present, I an undar contract as a consultant 14 for ER'C; they just changed 1 4 !; 4*me now-to SIMCO, so it's 4
, 15 a new name. I'm a member of the SET, whichiis the special 16 evaluation team,.which is reviewing certain things that havebeengiventousinregardstotheCommaNhePeak 17 18 project.
3 19 First of all, I would like to give a little i
i 20 background of myself and where I stand and why I'm doing l' 21 this. I spent the last 15 to 17 years with the NRC and the f 22 AEC, coming with them in 1968, as-a reactor inspector. And.
23 working in Region III. ,
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! '. 24 25 I worked in Region III until 1973, at,which time I transferred into the vendor inspection' branch, which -- -
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3 I1 1 which was domiciled in Arlington, Texas, at that time. I
. 1 2 transferred to Arlington, Texas, and until I retired on f
3 July 4th, 1984, I have been a reactor inspector; a vendor 4 program inspecting vendors all over the country, from the
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, 5 standpoint of manufacturing of equipment and so forth.
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6 The only reason that I have become involved in l
. 7 this is because I know many of the inspectors in Region IV 8
who have worked with me and I have worked with over the 9 years, and when I came to the site, I had never been on the 10 site before and that was one sr the reasons that, under the 11 NRC rules, people -- we wouldn't have any conflict of ;)
12 interest.
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l 13 'So that anything that I could do, I would be a 14 third party or disinterested party, which I was, because I ,
l 15 had never knew anything about it except you might say some I
i 16 hearsay that I might have found out in Region IV office
{ 17 when I was, you know, in off the road. aut I had no -- I 18 had nothing -- I didn't know what was happening down at ~;
l 19 this place or at Comanche Peak.
- 20 So my remarks are only remarks that are to be i j 21 made in regards to the management and etat'r, the activities-
.) 22 of the NPC personnel on site and also at the Region IV
- i 23 office in Arlington, Texas. ,
i j 24 Q once again, when did you retired from the NRC7
, 25 A I retired July,4th, 1984. ~(
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'4 1 Q okay. f 2' A And I am -- was -- I had a con,sultant job with -l i
3 'the ASME-and National Board to db vendor type inspections 4 at least once a month. But in october of 1984, I was asked I S to, by a friend of mine, to help him for thre's weeks l'n 1'
6 doing some certification of employees-of the-util'ity and 7 that was supposed to be, like-I say, for?three weeks. l-8 I' accepted it, and I h' ave not left yet; I'm still' j 9 at the site. I'm trying to wind it down so that I could l l' .. .
t 10 finally retire. But anything I say in this report has t-
, 11 nothing to do with anything that I'm doing.on site in , [
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12 regards to my job as a consultant or reflects on the '
. 13 utility,'TUGCo. I don't want.them involved from.this 14 standpoint.
l 15 Q $ understand. ;
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- 16 A okay. Anything I say about inspectors, I'm 17 calking about inspectors of the NRC. And that is as far as 18 I'll go in regards to what I'm doing at this point.
i 1,9 The reason I'got involv'ed, as..I said before, was-l t 20 that when I started with the NRC or the'AEC, we were a very
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21 small group of people. And after working in the region at-t i
i 22 the time ~I started, I had 10 plants that.I was responsible 23 for, frqa ground, from actually, meeting,. starting them off 24 from day.one when they said they were going to build'a
- 25. power-plant to getting them, you.might.say, on.a' final- ..c 1
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5 1 completion of construction.
2 I've had 10 plants that were my responsibility to I -
3 sign off as. constructed. And I know all of the different 4 manuals, the different procedures that are supposed to be-l 5 used by the inspectors. Even though I have been out of it, l 6 I still knew about them.
1 i 7 I started the gray book for the vendor group, I I 8 started the yellow book for the const'ruction people. I 9 know -- I know exactly what's needed by an inspector and 4
I 10 what an inspector should do from the standpoint,of making
. 11 his decisions of either a deviation, a violation or i
12 whatever comes up.
(. 13 And when I first came aboard, of course I was 14 doing m7 job. But I still am being called by many. people, i
15 when I say many people, inspectors and people when I do 16 talk to them, in Region IV, who are telling me things that
- 17 I personally, I muan I couldn't believa what I'm hearing. I l
-18 But during my time, even as a vendor inspector at '
19 Region IV, I was the -- I volunteered to be the i
20 vice-president of the union. That was just something I l
l 21 volunteered to do because nobody was doing anything, and i
i l' l 22 I'm not that -- from a standpoint of saying a died-in-the-i
] 23 wool union person, but you have -- somebody has to do j 24 something.
25 Ar.d I knew people, I.could-talk to people. _
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1 Everybody knew me. And I just said, "Well if I can help 2 out, I will do it." So I had quite a few, I you might say, 3 discussions with all of the regional administrators and the 4 supervisors and so forth, over my period'of time being in !
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- 5 Region IV, or when the union actually started. )
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- 6 I forget what year it was, to tell you the truth, ]
l 7 but it doesn't make any difference. So you might say I've 8 had a chance to get in the background of a lot of this j
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9 area, of management.
10 And my -- like I say, back again as to why.I'm 11 doing this, I could just say. forget the whole thing, but I 12 can't allow myself to see and hear some of the things that
!,(. 13 are happening to good inspectors by m'anagement.- They are 1
14 completely demoralizing them. This is the most demoral l l
. 15 office I've ever seen. )
I 16 I thought it was bad maybe eight years ago. But !
l 17 from what I'm getting now, it's terrible. Everybody is l l
. 18 sitting around waiting to retire. That is one thing. I l
, 19 mean you've got people in management that have been l 20 downgraded, you have people up there who are really just 21 waiting to retire, that's all -- that's what they're really j 22 doing.
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l i 23 And to me, I can't buy something like that. The i
! 24 people at th's point in mar.sgenent, I've known them for l 25 years. And I can like a, person from a standpoint of being
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7 1 a person. But I can dislike them from a professional view.
2 And Ive done it many times. But the people who are in top l
3 management now are really incompetent; they are not
- 4 d'ecision makers; they're politicians. And that's what's 5 happening-in Region IV.
6 And as I told the Commissioner when I talked to
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l 7 him on the phone, that the only reason I'm doing this is
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j 4 that I can't stand to, knowing what I do know, allow this 9 not to go on unheard.
- 10 (Discussion off the record.)
1 11 A (Continued)' okay. In the course of my -
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l consulti g many times, I've talked to shannon Phillips who
'(' 13 Iusedto'workwithin,thevendorprogramand!~oolnsider
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, 14 . him a very good inspector, fair, and knows what he's s ,
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! 15 talking.about. -
j 16 I'vealsotalkedwith[-
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! 17 I've had out with me and trained him when he first came
- it with the commission, and he also is a good inspector, from 19 a standpoint that he does dig into things and in some l 20 cases, as any inspector, he has to be guided, too.-
21 is a very honest man, and what happensd auth" m
- 22 to him was that he was just one day from being told that j i 23 there was ho job for him in Region IV because he' would not -
24 go to Washington. And he only has a couple, maybe two or
't i 25 three years left to retigt. And he was going io just be-i -
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!_ 2 And I couldn't see, with some of the inspectors l
3 that they had hired, why they wouldn't -- couldn't keep l 4 him. But they made most of the people who had some, you
! i 5 might.say, very good background in inspecting, move to 6 Washington. They could have stayed in Re'gion IV and done a j 7 job for them.
8 Well, the ones that did stay in Region IV, because
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, 9 it was_their opinion, they were assigned to different jobs I
', 10 in the area, Wolf Creek and other places like that. And l l
11 when the -- I guess the TRT findings were supposed to be l
- 12 looked at and so forth, they started a program on the site
( 13 with consultants and because of the area of conflict of 14 interest, the only people who could be involved in it or 15 should have been involved with it are those people who had 16 no contact at all with the utility, with the exception of i
17 ene or two who had made .some vendor inspections, this was
- 18 true, they'd never been on site. i 7
l l 19 These people are good inspectors, but they're not l
- 20 site type of inspectors, construction inspectors, because 21 they don't have the background of being construction I i
l l 22 inspectors.
t 23 So they had to put bodies down here and they put 24 them down here, not that they're, you might say, not doing 25 a job, but there's so many restraints going on down here. - c TATE REPORTING SERVICE, (713) 222-7177
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! l Q When you say "they," you're talking about Region 2 Iv? .
3 A Region IV, right, Region IV inspectors. So like j l
4 I say, I've talked to Shannon. And when I first went to l i
d 5 see him after I came back from retirement, I walked into
- 6 his office which was the site office for INE and I couldn't 7 believe what was in there, the papers that were in there, 8 piled up all over the place.
9 And I said to him,'you know, "What is all this?"
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And he said "Well," he said, "I'm trying to get
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11 things put together down here."
12 And I said, "Well, where is your help?" j
( 13 "They won't give me any help, no help 14 whatsoever."
i 15 And I said, "This is unreal; I mean, the j l
16 paperwork that you have -- that has to be done," because i 17 nobody was doing anything. It was -- with the hours I hear 18 that they said down here for inspection, I don't know what l 19 the hell the people were doing down here, really,
,t 20 But anyway, that was my first, you might say, t
21 look at what was going on on the site because I didn't know 22 what was going on here, I just came aboard, you know.
t i 23 Q Let me interrupt. When you talk about "the hours t
l 24 they say." .
25 A Manhours of inspection, 1 mean how much time -
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- t 10 1 people have inspected here.
2 Q Being high? ,
3 A ch, yeah. But everything is included, CAT Teams, 4
TRT, and you know, where they had come down with thirty 5 people, everything is included and being added into what's, 6 you know, what's been done down here. But when you come 7 down to what Region IV has done, that's another story, I 8 mean, ,ith Region IV people. Okay.
-l 9 Q And you hadn't seen any obvious, any obvious 10 results at least when you first came on site?
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11 A Well, in my area, in my area that I was looking i
12 at as a consultant, I was only looking at the certification f 13 of people who did inspections. And that was all I was 14 interested in.
15 But what happened was that I had to look from a 16 standpoint of procedures, because we were looking at 17 procedures for these certifications and I wanted to get
- 18 some background on the QA program of the site. '
And I asked l
- 19 for a copy of the program, the site QA program, corporate 20 QA program, and I received everything I asked.
i 21 And I started looking at it, and the entire j 22 management change had been made ac the site, and from a l
23 standpoint of a quality assurance, it didn't -- what was on l
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{ the site at that moment was not what was in the program.
1 l 25 And I had mentioned this to certain people and I, --
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1 you know, did anybody look at the program, I mean here?
2 And for four months, there was no corporate program on this 3 site.
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4 Well, I know that that is a complete no-no, you !
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5 cannot do anything on a' site without a'QA program, without' i 1
j- 6 it being at least looked at by the:NRC inspectors. And l i
'.' 7 from what I understand, I think they knew this, too.
p 8 Q The NRC7 9 9 A Yes, the NRC knew this and nothing seemed to be H
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1 10 done.
l 11 Well,,this was one of my major concerns, that l , 12 here was a real major item that they should have got on and
( .I 13 they didn't get on. I mean knowing this and allowing-
.i 14 somebody to operate without a QA program is -- well, it i
- j 15 doesn't meet our criteria of the NRC.
l l 16 Q Which section of the NRC? You know, there were i 3 ,
- 17 various -- you know, there was the CAT Team, and there was I
18 the Comanche Peak Review Team and there was a Region IV and l
19 then there was a resident inspector's. .Any particular
.I 20 group would be more responsible for looking at that?
.i 21 A Well, the people who did the QA part. I mean you j.
22 can't go back into the CAT Team or the TRT because this was 23 after this happened. But the people who were going to do
-]t 24 the quality assurance area would fall strictly under their
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25 area and also under Region IV, I mean.
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p 12 1 Q Okay.
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l 2 A It would still come under Region IV. But I i: '
3- didn't know there was some poli.tical things going on in
. ~4 regards to who was in charge of this whole project here. I 5 sean it was in Washington and first it was Ippelito who I l
J 6 have known for years and.then the next thing he leaves and
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!. j 7 then Noonan comes in'who have-I've,known and'I didn't know
- 8' who was in charge. -
I 9' And then I heard that that Region IV was coming
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l 10 back in the picture again and then all these consultants
, q i 11 appear on the site with Region IV people who they sent 12 down,,which were the people who came out of the vendor 4
() 13 group. .
! 14 And they were more or less in charge of what's j 15 happening, you know. .But I made enough hints to people, I i
.i 16 sean, that if they didn't know what I was talking about, ;
} 17 either ignored me or thought I was something else. .
, 18 Q And you believe that they were aware of.it? '
i i 19 A Ch, I know they were aware of it. I know they I
( 20 were aware of it, that that was the bad -- the thing, j 21 because I, l in my area, this was something that was being f f
j 22 covered by another consultant and he, I mean that's- i 23 something that will'come out later on from~the standpoint 24 of the site.
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25 So I don't want that to be part of my -- of my ~
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1 13 1 report here. But yes, I know they knew this. And I've 2 seen some things that they knew this a long time ago from 1
3 the standpoint of quality assurance on this site.
1 4 And from some of the things I've seen, I've been l i
l l 5 told, and I've seen with my own eyes, reports that are l
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l 6 pulled apart and completely pulled apart. You know the one i
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7 I'm talking about. I just don't believe what I read /see.
1 8 That's one reason why I'm saying that people in l 9 management up there right now, which we know, are i
- 10 incompetent or they're out of their cotton picking minds.
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! 11 Q Which reports? Do you have any specific reports I i 12 that you could reference that you feel have been --
l(/ 13 A Well, some of them were dealt reports and, you 14 know, I -- I don't want to -- I really don't want to say
- 15 the ones, because -- that I have seen. You'd just have to 4
16 take my word, I've seen certain reports.
f 17 And it's not -- I don't think it's to me to go 18 ahead and say which ones, because they were drafts. But i
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19 what was done to them was unreal. I mean I've never seen l 20 in my life anything ripped apart like that, really, at that
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21 point. And I didn't agree with them, because what was in j
22 there was completely removed and -- '
l i 23 Q When you say "What was in there" --
1 24 A What was in these drafts.
l 25 Q Are you talking about violations? --c f
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- 14 1 A Violations and so forth. It vas, I was starting 2
. to get the feel of not from -- the feel that all they were 3
- trying to do down here, when I say 'they," I'm talking 4
about'the NRC group or consultants and so forth, was to 1
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clean up everything that the TRT had found and that was it, 7
l 6 they didn't want anymore problems. $
'I 7 0 The 'TRT' meaning the NRC7' -
8 A The NRC, site at this. point, you know, n'to the
- 9 ones that come.in that did the inspection but to clean up 10 their findings and so forth, the 700 and some odd things 11 like that.
12 And it just appeared to me, I mean I've got a C
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.u 14 feeu ng and r' e been a ins,e. tor ,o, forir rears and I think.I can feel things out, I mean I have funny ideas or I ll
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have feelings about certain things, and this was one I was !
16 having and talking with shannon and talking with 17 talking with some of the people in Region IV telling me .;
i 18 what was happening up there in regards to people leaving, 19 of good people leaving and asked them why they left, and j
L 20 i sone o'f them left because of annagement, really, maybe they f 21 didn't really want to go.along with what was happening, and 1
22 they chose not to stay.
I 23 And because of that, I felt that if this keeps on 24 going, somebody, some time is going to get up on the stand i a 25-when this hearing comes gn for this site and under oath ~
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1 he's going to have to tell what happened here. And at that 2 time, it will blow Region IV out of the water.
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. 3 And this is what I told the Commissioner, and I'd
, 4 rather have Region -- or the NRC take care of what's in 1
7 5 house before it gets out, because if it gets out, you are 6 all, everyone's dead at.this. point.
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7 That's one of'my major reasons that I wanted to 8 -keep it in-house because I still feel a -- not an
- i 9 obligation, but I still have a feeling for the commission
- 10 from the standpoint of starting with it when it was just a
[ 11 few inspectors, and to what it is now and knowing the type
) 12 of work that we did and knowing ,what has to be done and in l
( 13 regards to even making violations what they are and how 1
1 i 14 they are and so forth, what was told to me and some of.the l] >
15 things I've seen turning them into.
l 16 Just Monday I picked up the newspaper, I got a i
17 copy of it there, saying that they issued a report and they 1
- 18 gave them some violations or whatever they want to call ;
~i.l 19 them at this time, they're only fours which like,,you know,
.k a 20 a slap on the wrist. '
.9 su
-j 21 Some of those are not, they are real violations, 22 and they should not have been made fours, that's one thing. i
- 23 And I agree with some of the findings that-were had but the M 24 inspectors have been, I don't know how you put it, but 1
,I 25 1 eney've been' bulldozed down and they, at this; point,' there ,
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l 1 isn't going to be anymore, anymore violations or anything
. 2 out of this site from anybody, it's going to be all l -
3 unresolved items and this is not what you want, unresolved 4 items, t
1 5 Q some of the draft reports that you looked at and i
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6 violations that were removed, that you have knowledge of, f 7 do you consider these violations to be valid violations?
I i 8 A Yes. From my experience as an inspector, yes, i
j 9 they were. And if I was,still there, no one would have f
l 10 removed them from me, I mean they were violations under our
- 11 rules and regulations.
! 12 Auditing done by Region IV of the site is l
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u atrocious, ther did noe fon ow the <anua1, they didn't
' 14 follow the areas that had to be looked at at certain times. i
) 15 I put ten of these plants on the line. I've
-l 16 signed off on ten of these plants in regards to f
- 17 construction; I know what has to be done.
3 18 I Everything is after the fact here, everything is i
l 19 after the fact here. And I must also say everything is i'
20 after the fact at Wolf Creek; there were no really good n i 21 inspections of Wolf Creek.
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9 22 Q When you say "after the fact," what --
23 A Paper. All you're looking at is paper. You're 24 not actually watching or not doing the things that come j 25 under the program that you have to look and be there and' ~
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1 sign off on. Using paper and that's all. I mean --
2 _
Q so you're just reviewing licens.ee documents?
3 A No, you're reviewing construction documents and 4 things like that, you know. It's, 3ou know, you have 5
certain times, certain periods of time you're supposed to 6 take, say, an audit, you're suppored to have an audit of
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't 7 .the corporate. office QA/QC prograt.
l, 8 Well, from what I saw, I don't think anybody has f
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9 audited them-for ten years, really, in the. corporate j 10 office. I mean, you know, I know it's five years anyway.
- 11 But they should have been done.
12 Site audits, they, I've seen some reports, I mean t
(. 13 they're public reports, you know, and I look at them and
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14 they look.very good, you know, but I can't buy some of the 15 stuff that's in them,.you know, at that point.
I i 16 So this is an area, this is another area like I
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17 say that I was very concerned with, was auditing, and 18 especially for the months that there was no, no approved j 19 quality assurance program An the sense that they completely 1
l 20 reorganized and that is a major function of -- they could
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- 21 tell you but you've got to put it in writing. You just t
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. 22 can't be told something; someone says, "Well, they were
't 1 23 told and so it's all right," you know.
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'24 But you don't do these things. When you change l
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L 25 people around, then -- especially peop1>s who have to sign g I
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18 1 things, they couldn't do anything on the site until they 2 had somebody up in Dallas signing off. And there is, this 3 is the only area I'm talking about, one of the areas anyway 4 of this auditing, that the NRC knew about and they've known
, 5 for quite awhile about the thing and nothing ever happened.
6 And that bothered me.
l l 7 Q What months were you talking about?
8 A Let's see, that must have been -- I'm just trying l 9 to go back, April or something, when I found it. And it 10 wasn't until November something was really done. I mean, 11 that the new program came out.
l 12 But in my capacity, I -- I couldn't do any .
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(: 13 further because somebody else was doing that. And like I
, 14 say, that's part of the third party overview of what's e
l
- 15 happening here. And that's not in my category. But j i 16 knowing about it and knowing that the NRC wasn't doing what t
l 17 they were supposed to do just bothered me at thnt point, a
18 that they allowed it to happen. .
! f 19 So that was the one reason.
4 20 Another area that more or less got me a little
} 21 bit concerned or really concerned was that one of the s i '
j 22 contractors was, their contract was not renewed and thep ,
1 23 had inspectors out in the field who were doing I
24 reinspection, work that was going to be -- was being done .
l 25 l out there, and they knew that I had been with the NRC.
I And -
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19 1 they came to me, they said that they had a problem in the 1 2 field of something that they saw, and not that they were 3 making an allegation, but they just wanted to let the NRC l I
, 4 know about it.
! J 5 And I said, "Well, go to the NRC in Region IV."
~
t 6 And they said, "No, we're going to take it to I' -
7 Region III."
8 And I said, "Why are you going to take it to
- 9 Region III?"
10 k Well, these inspectors who I found out were good '
11 inspectors,'I mean very good inspectors, worked at Midland i 12 and had a very good, when I say relationship with Region f
(- 13 III where things that were going on, they told the NRC 14 about it and they got on the ball right away and got it a
It done, something was done.
I 16 And I said, "Well, why are you going there?"
- 17 And they said, "Well, we just do not trust the ,
{
l I
18 NRC inspectors from Region IV."
19 And I was thinking, I said, "This is, you know,
)
! 1 li 20 it should be handled by Region IV."
l 21 So I pick up the phone and I called Tom
! !j 22 Westerman, who was in second in command, and I know Tom.' j 23 I told him, I said, "I've got two fellows here
'1 i l
24 who have.some things they want to talk'to you about, and I 1
]
l 25 want you to talk to them." ..j 4
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1 And the answer back I got from Tom was that, l I
2 "We've got so much stuff going on down here with these TRT, 3 closing these, we can't have anymore problems here."
4 And that bothered me when he said that and I
- 5 said, " Tom," then I'm saying, "They want to go to Region
}.
! 6 III and talk to Kepler's people."
I j 7 And I said, "If they do that," I said, "you know, l 8 what that really means." And I said, "You are going to --
9 look, talk to them."-
10 So I set the thing up and I told him about it and
. 11 they set up the investigation or whatever you want to call I 12 it, and I know that he talked to them, but I know nothing
( 13 e'ise of what happened. But what they told me, I don't know 14 what they told him, you know, from that standpoint.
l "
l 15 Q Right.
16 A So at that point, I said I did what I thought was l 17 right, was having them look at it, but I had a bad feeling,
, 18 a taste in my mouth what somebody says, when somebody has a t 19 problem, that they're too busy to take care of it because 1, !
i 20 they don't want anymore problems here.
1 21 Q These contractors, then, you feel had some valid 22 concerns?
23 , A They had some concerns, I mean from the 24 standpoint of things that were happening on the site here.
4 1
25 And that was their concerns. -- .
2 TATE REPORTING SERVICE, (713) 222-7177 I
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21 1 Q And concer's. that the NRC should be looking at?
2 A Yeah, that's what they were telling them for, 3
because they did tell these to the NRC people at Midland 4 and something was done. And this is the whole thing, and
- 5 they just, like I said, they said they wouldn't -- didn>t 6
want to talk to anybody because they didn't trust anybody, 7 the NRC inspectors here.
- 8 Q Can you outline their concerns or do you want to
, 9 outline their concerns?
10 A- No, not at that point because I don't know what 11 they said. I mean that's unfair on that standpoint because 12 all I did was to alert the NRC that there were two people
( 13 that wanted to tell them something and go listen to them.
i 14 0 okay. Did they discuss the concerns with you?
t 15 A i
only on a very, you might say, general-type 16 nature, because they were doing reinspection
. and so forth, l 17 and I don't want to get mixed up, I had -- with that area '
l 18 1
because it was not in the area that I was in. I 19 But they did have some concerns which I think 20 they should have told them.
i 21 Okay.
Q But there was no doubt in your mind that l 22 these people had some concerns? I I
i i 23 A ch, yeah. No, they had concerns.
24 I
Q And they knew what they were talking about?
, 25 A ch, they were qualified people, they had worked ~
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l 22 1 at Midland and other people who I've met know them and knew i
2 them and they were very conscientious young men and good l 3 inspectors and I had no problem with that part, none 4 whatsoever.
5 Q Did you get any feedback from them after ,
? .
i 6 Mr. Westerman talked to them?
l
- 7 A None whatsoever, because they all lef t ar.d went f 8 to Michigan and they're on another job and things like i.
j 9 that. But I never called up and asked them what happened, i
j 10 or, you kr.ow, if he did it or not.
11 But,I heard through the grapevine that sure, I {
i i 12 f j mean he did do it, he did have a meeting with them at a h 13 motel and so forth, but what happened there, I know nothing 14 about. And I can't talk to that area.
j 15 But people tell me things. And like my wife I
'. 16 says, "Why are you getting involved with this for?" But as i 17 I said before, I don't believe people should be destroying o
18 things, I don't believe that reports should be changed
, 19 after they have been signed off by everyone.
j i
! 20 Some of the so-called management threats and I j
't 21 innuendos to some of these inspectors I think is not
- 22 management type conduct. It's just at this point, I think 1
l 23 it's -- the morale in that region is at the lowest ebb I've i
j 24 ever heard. It was very low at one time but it started to ,
I i
25 pick up and then just went down the drain. --
i TATE REPORTING SERVICE, (713) 222-7177
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s i
3 A Well, I think you've heard it already so you know l
4 what I'm talking about. But when people say, "New, you've 5 got a good job and get good pay and so forth, you know, l
- 6 let's not rock the boat," that's what it really turns out i
7 to be.
8 And that's, to me, anybody -- if anybody ever 9 said that, at that point, I would bring them up on charges.
10 But it's easier for me to say something like ,this than 11 other people,'because I am retired and I just can't, I j 12 can't stomach what I'm hearing and this is not just one
( 13 person, it's more than one person.
14 There's quite a few of them in that region. And l 15 you'd have to go down the line and start talking to l
16 everybody in that region to find out what's going on up 17 there, the things that have happened.
18 And like I say, I don't know who's running that 19 region. Because I can't fathps Mr. Martin allowing this to 20 go on, unless he's completely isolated.
l 21 And prior to this, when I called the f
I
- 22 Commissioner, I was going to call Mr. Martin and sit down 23 with him and ask him just what is going on up there, does l
l 24 he know what's happening at this site in regards to l 25 reports -- changing of reports making, you might say, -.<
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1 deviations and violations, they're not violation, they're 2 not deviations, and that's the way it's going to be and 3 that's it.
4 I mean, this is not the way you inspect and in i 5 all my life of inspecting, the inspector still has the i 6 right, unless he's pr. oven wrong by some substantial 7 evidence, to have his right to say what he says and that is 8 it. But to have people changing what he has to say without
- 9 rhyme or reason or nothing, this is not right.
- 10 And this is why I say at this point, the 11 inspectors are not, I can't talk for the consultants or i
I 12' anything like that that are down here, but the inspectors
!(- 13 that come down, I don't think they're going to find 14 anything anymere, I mean, from that standpoint.
i ;
1 15 0 When you talk about changing reports after f {
16 they've been signed -- '
j 17 A Well, I know there's one that was changed. I I
18 haven't personally seen it, but knowing what's been going .
19 on, I believe it. I believe it, j 20 Shannon has put himself on the line and he 21 doesn't have -- he really doesn't have an axe to grind 22 because he came down here with the idea of being an i
23 inspector, a site inspector, getting out -- he's a hands-on 1
l 24 type of man, getting out there.and looking around to see 25 what's going on. But because of the paperwork and because -
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25 l l 1 of the you might say the mess this place was in from the
, 2 standpoint of records being kept by the NRC, it's unreal, i 3 just unreal. i
.; 4 And as I said, I asked them for some things that l 5
i
.i 5 I needed, couple of directives that would be public that I i
,. i
; 6 wanted to take a reading on, and they couldn't even find f i '
i j 7 them, they had no help here, none whatsoever. And it was l
! l 8 just, they wouldn't let him do anything from that i 1
9 standpoint. 4 i 10 Q When you earlier talked about vendor personnel !
' 11 l being sent out to the site because they had no previous '
12 contact with Comanche Peak, and peu commented about their I (_.$ 13 qualifications or suitabilities to be construction
.i 14 inspectors.
15 A The thing is that not that they're good -- I'm ; P
! 16 not saying that they're not good inspectors, but the J.
17 inspection that they had been doing for the last ten years j 18 or eight or nine years that-they've been with the vendors
) 19 and their backgrounds was more to the manufacturing type of l 20 inspections.
j 21 And unless you know how a power plant is built and i 22 how it's run and so;forth, you are -- from the standpoint j 23 of people, you get lost from the standpoint of looking at i
! 24 l
i something and saying that this is wrong or that's wrong, 25 because in a plant', everything is controlled, people who -1 p} TATE REPORTING SERVICE, (713) 222-7177
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; 26 i 1 have been working in the plants for fifteen, twenty years, 2 it's a completely different atmosphere. .
3 But when you come on a construction site, you 4 have people who are coming in and going and you don't get i s
- 5 the type of continuity that you do in a plant. And you j b.
6 have to weigh that when you look at different things and j 7 you have to know that.
, 8 And the inspection, I mean the people from Region
, 9 IV who were here, they've been put in charge of some of the i
10 consultants or in charge of the consultants. And I met 11 some of the consultants, and one thing, I was wondering
.; 12 what kind of training that they give these consultants in h 13' regards to NRC backgrounds. And I don't think they really 14 got much training of what NRC really stands for or how they J j 15 work, you know. I think this is wrong.
16 I mean, if you're going to use consultants, you i 17 should give him a training program in what the NRC does and
- l 18 doesn't do, you know. And from that standpoint, the people l\
i ' 19' who are here in the different categories, I personally, I l 20 mean, I know them, and personaly I like them, but 21 professionally, I have no feeling for them. I don't think ; 22 they're capable of doing what they're supposed to do. l l . 4 23 -(Brief recess.) i 24 A (Continued) Just from the standpoint of my 25 observations and my thinking in regards to the site, many - l i l TATE REPORTING SERVICE, (713) 222-7177 1 w ww.m.m m . c.~ . v. wn m + - n i
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27 1 of the things that nave happened at this site other than 2 like I say what I'm involved with -- well, even that, too 3 -- many of these things could have and should have been 4 picked up five, six, seven years ago by the NRC. If they 5 followed the manual inspection type of manual and done the 6 job they're supposed to have done. This goes back into
; 7 1980, 1979 when all this was going on, they started up.
8 If this place had been or this site had been 9 inspected according to the NRC's program at that time, many
. . 10 of the things that have happened now that are causing l
11 what's going on here would have been, you know, it would 12 have be taken under consideration and most likely resolved I (_.- 13 five, six years ago. 14 And as I just said off the record, that the , i I
! 15 utility, in some cases, I mean, could have a case that the l, 16 NRC did not do their job and it could, I mean I don't I
17 know -- I'm not a legal person, but from what I understand, i 18 they could come back at the NRC that many of these things l 19 were not taken to their end, you might say, and dealt with l 20 like they should have been dealt with in other plants that j 21 I've known that I've shut plants down in my career because 0
. 22 they had so many violations on the QA programs, I have shut t l i 23 them down.
j 24 I can name many, many areas of that. And that's j 25 just my review or look at this plant, I just couldn't - e TATE REPORTING SERVICE, (713) 222-7177 W~7FLs.; .a.aw;a;w .wi.wmaw: * . ~ " "
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6 e 4 28 1 believe that all these things were still, you might say, i 2 open and nothing had been done. . 3 Q The philosophy that it's more important to 4 inspect hardware than to inspect the QA program, is that a
! 5 valid --
1 i j A 6 No. Well, first of all, the first thing that has 7 to be done with any nuclear plant is to find out do they 8 have first of all a quality assurance program, a quality i - t 9 control program; do they have people in the program who l 10 understand and are qualified to be quality assurance people 11 and managers; and that they follow the quality assurance i 12 manual, will follow and conform to 10 CFR which is the (' 13 basis of our whole inspection program. I 14 In the early days of any plant, the first thing I 15 you did was to look at the manual, to look at what was I i l 16 going on and in those cases where there was work underway, ; i j 17 you would look at the implementation of their QA program. l 18 The programs, itself, from the NRC and what the ;
'i 19 h NRC inspector was -- is supposed to do and has to do, lays 1
20 it out. But if you don't send anybody out to do these l 21 things, if no one is doing them, and following the 22 procedures, many things are going to just happen. I 4 23 I mean you have to, you have to have enough 24 people doing these things. And from what I understand,
. .25 there's been a heck of a. lot of manhours spent down here by ~
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6 . 1 29 ) 1 NRC people and there are still things that are coming to 2 light. And I just don't understand it from that 1 3 standpoint. ' 4 Q So then the function of going and inspecting a 4 i l 5 piece of hardware, what would that serve? I
; 6 A All right, that would be the implementation of 1 7 whac the original concept of looking at pcper, at one time l 8 we were looking at paper until it came out our ears and 9 then in many changes in INE, we changed around so tha.t we 10 start looking at hardware, from the standpoint. i l
l I
! 11 But when.you look at a procedure that's put out
- i 12 by the utility, they say they're going to do certain 1
( 13 things, you have to go out in the field, you have to pick l 9
-14 certain objects and items and so forth and see what's been l
i j 15 done and if the paper that's been produced in doing it has l l , 16 been produced and is according to the plans.
. 17 So you.have to look at hardware. And.in the I i 18 past, oh, I would say the past seven or eight or nine l 19 years, most of the plants that I understand in other 20 regions, people are looking at hardware and they're looking i
j 21 at hardware only to find out if the quality assurance 22 program is working. 23 And that's the only way y'u're o going do it by 24 auditing and finding out is it being done. But there was i 25 many points in all of the NRC manual for inspections that ~'< 4 TATE REPORTING SERVICE, (713) 222-7177 f
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a 30 1 you had to witness, you had to -- you had to be here to ( 2 look at it. There was certain points that you have-to look
,' 3 at.
4 And I like I.say, if they were here, they missed 5 it completely. And the QA program is the most vital part
, 6 of building a nuclear power plant. And it always has been, 7 that they have to have a viable plan'and they have to have 8
a viable audit p'rogram, pnd they have'to be looked at by
, 9 the NRC inspectors as to what they're doing, themselves
; 10 because they're the onss that are building the plant, j 11 they're the ones that are supposed to have or should havs i i
! 12 audits to prove what's going on, and these are areas which h- 13 I think we've,been very weak in and I know that they've
; 14 j been brought to the attention.of management for many, many l
j 15 years, from a QA standpoint. And some of these things I . i
'j 16 don't think got anyplace, i
l' 17 Q So if an inspector were to observe violations of ' 18 l 3 Appendix B that dealt with QA and records keeping, those ' 19 violations you feel would be a significant -- 20 A
'i l when I look at the -- what was in the newspaper 21 here, did I get those over there? Let me get this.
.i
) 22 Have you seen those?
l 23 Q Is this a recent newspaper? e
'j 24 A Monday.
I 4 25 Q okay. .
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31 1 A You can have it. i 2 Q Okay. And what paper was this.in, do you know? 3 A The Fort Worth Star T'elegr'am, Monday. i 4 Q Okay. It says in this article that an NRC 5 inspection last fall resulted in citations for six I j 6 violations of federal regulations. All these violations
', 7 were. listed as level four, the second least serious j 8 violation cited by the commission.
l j, 9 The violations are failure to maintain sufficient 10 chemistry records, not reporting a welding violation on 11 report to the Commission, inadequate control for design I 12 documents, absence of procedures for controlling off site , ( 13 shipment of original design records, signing of inspection 14 reports by a noncertified electrical inspector and revision 15 of drawings without required review and approval. I 16 These were all assigned level four. Do you l 17 believe these, this level to be appropriate for violations
; 18 of this sort?
19 A Certain ones there could be in that area. But
'. 20 when you are telking about records being removed from the 1
j 21 site, that is something different, because they're the only 22 records that they have of the site. And from what I l 23 understand, they were shipped off site and I believe'that
- 24 they were put down as a violation and they were talked out i
i l 25 of it completely, of doing it. I i 1
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d 32 1 Q Who'c "they," when you talk about they? . 2 A The inspector. . 3 Q The NRC inspector? 4 A Right. j 5 Q And when they were talked out of it, who was? 6 A sy management. 7 Q NRC management? 8 A Right, NRC management. And you just don't
'l 9 send -- I mean, I like, I say, I'm back to my time with l 10 the -- as an inspector with the NRC, and on sites, you l 11 don't send off documents of -- safety related documents i
i 12 without -- well, you just don't send them off site without ( 13 having copies of them and these should never have been sent i 14 off site at this point. 15 I mean, that's the way I feel because I.kn,ow what {,
'l 16 they were. I mean, I've been told what they were. And the 17 amounts of them completely blow my mind when I heard about
.{ 1 18
; it, that they would not be a real violation, I mean put ,
I 19 b i from that standpoint. ' I 20 Q So you real that something like this is a f 21 significant violation? 22 A Oh, yeah, definitely. If I was the inspector on 4 23 i this site, that would have been a violation of 10 CFR 50 24 and control of documents, because the documents really 25 should not, unless you have two -- unless you have another ~ i TATE REPORTING SERVICE, (713) 222-7177 s _ _ _ - - - - -
33 I set of them, you shouldn't let them out of your control ! i 2 because they are *he only documents for a safety related 3 item. And that's what I say. And they were just talked 4 away. j S Q And I understand from the inspector, the NRC 6 resident inspector, that he believed that since the records f 7 b were sent off the site without copies being maintained by ' 8 the licensee, that at a minimum they should have been i j 9 shipped in fire proof containers, and from what I , 10 understand, these records were shipped in cardboard boxes. 11 A
, That's -- I understand the same thing. And I 12 agree with the site inspector that, if they were going to
() 13 do it, they should do it. ' 14 i But then again, those were site records; the work 15 was done on site, and I know, I've worked with the 16 companies that have done that type of work in other plants, 17 and they never took those off until there was another copy 18 of it. Those are site records. > 19 If they're made in the manufacturing plant,'then l 20 they'll be sent to the site. But not the things that are 21 done on site, you just don't remove th'em all and send them f 22 away, you just don't let them out of your hand, I mean. 23 Q So if the NRC inspector decided that he would j 24 consider the fact that they had to send the records off 25 site, but that at a minimum, they should be stored as if - i TATE REPORTING SERVICE, (713) 222-7177 d -
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4 1 they were on site in a fire proof container? 2 A They should have protected. . 3 Q And if he were to write a violation saying, you 4 know, given that they shouldn't be off the site, but since d l 5 they are off the site I want them protected, and they
! 6 weren't protected, if he were to write a violation, would
! 7 you consider there to be a --
8 A It's a valid violation. 9
-_ a valid violation?
Q 1 i 10 A Definitely, definitely. And I've given i 11 violations to many companies on the same thing. i And
! 12 they've been upheld. But when I saw that in the , newspaper l I
\
] (. 13 Monday, I had another feeling again how could, you know, i
l 14 , this is ridiculous, some of these, you know, it's like who ) l 15 dotted what "I" and who crossed what "T" and so forth. I t
. 16 I mean, you know this is nitty-gritty stuff what I
; 17 (
i they're saying, I mean frem the standpoint of saying that ' 18 these are true or not. But there's more background to them
! 19 which doesn't even show. You'll have to talk to inspectors ; 20 about what they really found and what they've said and what
{
! 21 happened to them, where did they go. I mean.
I know 22 there's more to it than just what I read in the newspaper.
]
l 23 MR MULLEY: Could we go off the record? i j 24 (Discussion off the rec,ord.). t 25 Q (By Mr. Mulley) Based on your past experience, l i ,1 ll
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35 1 if you were inspecting a plant, issued a citation or s
)
2 determined that there was a violation and went to the j 3 extent of out-briefing the utility of a certain viol,ation, 4 4 and several months down. the road the utility contacts you i 5 arid says, "We found a document that pertains to the . l 6 violation," how would you handle a situation like that? f '
} 7 A First of all, while the NRC inspector is on site f
8 or wherever he is making the inspection, and asks for a i 9 piece of -- or a document that he needs to do his l l
? 10 inspection or to prove something to him and he asks the j 11 utility or manufacturer, whichever, for that document and .j l 12 the person may come back and say, "We can't find it right i
( 13 now," all right. 14 You give them the time necessary while you're l 15 still there of when it comes to a final exit' meeting and if 1 i 16 you -- if you tell them that you have found something which i j 17 they could not prove, you're going to give them a violation i 1
, 18 from that standpoint of document retreival, which is part i
! 19 of the program, or what, then the report should contain {
l j 20 that. i 21 Now, if they -- when they answer you, they can 22 say that "We have found something," then in the next 23 inspection, you'd go back and look at what they have. But
'24 the violation is still there; when you leave or you've made
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25 your final opinion of what you found, that has to be in the _.~j
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36 1 report. 2 And when I read the paper there of inspections _ 3 being made four, five, six months ago and just being 4 reported now, this is -- this is not the way you inspect 5
; plants. You don't wait four months to get reports out.
6 But from what I understand, that happens in that
', 7
', office, everybody looks at it, everybody does everything to 8 it, it doesn't go anywhere. And it means that's a j 9 i
worthless, worthless report, it's completely worthles_s to l 10 anybody, it's stupid to even issue it. i I 11 I mean if I was a -- if I was a utility, I wouled l 12 laugh at you that you're issuing reports so late. ' They 13 should come out within at least 30 days, they should be 14 out, on the road. And this when I say that it's worthless,
; 15 the whole thing. I mean it doesn't do anything.
)
16 i Q The practice of reclassifying a violation to an q' 17 unresolved item, does that have any benefit, serve any < 18 benefit to anybody? i a j 19 A Unresolved items normally you don't have to close l ' 20 out, they can go on forever. i Some people use unresolved 21 items just as a tracking system. And from what I 22 \
. understand in reg &rds to all the problems they had about ; .) 23 computers down here, which is another area that I just hear 'l 24 about from people, in trying to put tracking systems in on i 25 all this that's happened.down here, I don't know what's t _-
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37 , I really happened from the standpoint of the system, I can't 2 speak to that. 3 But you don't have to close out really unresolved 4
,. 4 items. They go, they just disappear. But some people used
! 5 to use them, I personally used them sometimes when I was
}
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} 6 inspecting just to keep something open so I wouldn't forget l 7 the' thing.
; 8 But before I finally signed off on a plant, I was i 9 sure that L11 unresolved items had been -- something had i 10 been done to them, but they don't really have to be because 11 they're not in that program, that part. They had to be a 12 deviation or they had to be a finding that'.s reported. You
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* \, , 13 could make an unresolved item and then to get a little more
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l' 14 information. But once you find a deviation and once it's 15 been given to the utility or the manufacturer, then you I ' 16 cannot change that violation three months later and say l
! 17 "Well, they found the paper in three months."
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1 18 You know, because that report should have been ! 19 out with that in it. And now if you're going to put a 20 report out now and you're writing about something back I 21 three or four months ago, you don't -- you still shouldn't j 22 change the report. The report should not be changed, 'it's 1 A 23 still a deviation at the time you made the inspection and l I 24 you're reporting about the time you.make the inspection, 1 l 25 that's what you're reporting on, not three weeks or three t __q i i TATE REPORTING SERVICE, (713) 222-7177
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38 l l 1 months down the road or whatever it is that they have. 2 ! Q Is it proper to reclassify a violation to an i 3 unresolved item even though you have enough information 4 available to call it a violation? 5 A The inspector who makes the inspection is the one j j l l l 6 who first makes his decision as to what he has. If he
, 7 knows the rules and regulations, if he knows the programs, 8
he knows what a violation is, he knows what a deviation is, ' 9 he's the one that's going to make a decision of that is 10 going to be or is not going to be. All right. 11 In many cases, in some cases , from the standpoint 12 of deviations and violations, after they're discussed with I 8 13 a supervisor, could be changed. t But the reason that it 14 l would be changed was because you may have made a wrong 1 15 decision, or if it's a very, you know, important type of { 16 thing, the supervisor would go cut and take a look at it 17 himself. And many times, this has happened, because you i 18 1 can't be a supervisor sitting in the office and saying what l 19 the inspector has seen with his own eyes. 20 i i, So I have always said come out and look at it l 21 yourself and then say it's right or wrong or it is or it 22 isn't, but just don't say that isn't one. It's been 23 happening, here it happened many times, and you know, in 24 you might say inspections. i i i 25 There are some. inspectors look at something ano .j i TATE REPORTING SERVICE, (713) 222-7177 e 4 g e .'
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, . . . 39 1 everything is a violation and then when' you really get down 2 to it there real'1y isn't a violation, might be just a 3 deviation. A violation has to have significant safety 4 background and emphasis on it. And they should not be I
t 5 changed, if it's a violation of an NRC rule, regulation, so j 6- forth. k
. 7 Those are. violations; you can't change thoso.
8 But some of the others could be made a lower, into a
- 9 deviation; I don't know if they changed the, you know, it's 10 been a long time since I did inspections, but if they've 11 changed what a deviation is or what a violation is, I don't ,
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l 12 know what the present day thinking is, I'm talking about i
? ! h, 13 when I was inspecting, which is ten years ago.
14 But when we made a decision most -- like I say -- t 15 most of the time, the decision would stay, but the report 16 got out within a 30 day period of time. It has to. And
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17 all my life, I've never, I mean I've never heard anybody 18 changing something because somebody found something three ! ,) 19 or four months later.
- 20 MR. MULLEY: Off the record. l <
21 (Discussion off the record.) i 22 A (Continued) I would just like to make a 23 concluding comment on this whole area, is that as I said in 24 the beginning, my concern is with what had not been done
; 25 which should have been done by the NRC and especially -.
TATE REPORTING SERVICE, (713) 222-7177 ak u w is w .w a m .rss- m m.w:.;:. wwa . .m . + o - '
l I 40 1 Region IV in regards to inspecting this plant. And what is
- 2 happening or what can happen to some of the people who are 3 still inspecting and bringing in valid violations or valid 4 type of findings and there -- they would be downgraded or' 5 completely removed, and with the.saying, "Well, that's the
- 6 way it's going to be."
f, 7 Destroying all draft reports is another thing 8 that I don't condone or don't condone until what is done is i 9 in writing and on the street, it's sti_11 a draft report. 10 But to destroy all of the notes and things I 11 think is wrong. And this was an order from certain people l 12 to do these things, destroy everything. And'as I said, at
- h. ' 13 the beginning, that my only concern is that it be held --
I
, 14 or be looked at internally by NRC to take care of the NRC i
j 15 from t'he standpoint that there are a lot of people doing 1 16 good jobs in inspecting all over the country, and I 17 wouldn't went this to be blown out of kilter by other ,i
, l la persons that would do it to the NRC. l l 19 And that's my real feeling, that's the only i
- l 20 reason that I stand up or talk about this, because I ,
1
} 21 have -- I still have a feeling for the Commission and i
j 22 trying to get work done and trying to get these plants on B 23 the line and put them on and make them safe to operate. 24 And that's about it. j 25 Q (By Mr. Mulley) I just have one question - c \ -
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. . . . 41 1 concerning the destruction of draft reports. Why do you 2 feel people are being directed to destroy draft reports?
3 A Well, you have to remember that, as I told you,
. 4 that people do call me up on the telephone and talk to me.
i 5 And what was told to me by some peop19, I believe, because i j 6 the people wouldn't be telling me something that is not 7 true, I mean I respect their veracity in regards to what l 8 they say. 'If it was just a passing remark by somebody it 9 would be something else. But it depends on who tells me i 10 something is what counts, who it is that's telling me these 11 things. And I feel that this is happening. 12 Q Did.they ever indicate why? f l; g g .'. 13' A Well, if something came up, I mean if you have
] 14 something that can really show that this is not what you 15 said,. somebody is in trouble. ', 1 l
16 ! I mean, and this is one thing that what happens > l i
! 17 when inspectors get into a situation like this, they start l t l 18 to rabbit things away and you're not going to find them l ) .. 19 until something happens and like I said, I wouldn't want
't j 20 some of the inspectors, the NRC, inspectors to be put on the i
~.j 21 stand and being put through the third degree by Mr. Block, 22 he would blow -- this place would be blown out of the water i
j 23 because they would tell exactly what you're being told 1 24 right now by the inspectors and that's the thing that 25 bothe'rs me, that it's there. c
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I 6 , ,s . 42 1 And like I say, I've seen some things with my own
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2 eyes, and I've read them over and in the course of this 3 whole investigation, I think that-you'll find out it's not 4 just some one or two people who are saying this, but quite. 5 a few people. 6 And I think this is -- the whole Region IV office 7 should be looked at and people talked to in that office in 8 regards to the whole conduct of things, and this is not 4 9 just in one area, this is in quite a few different areas.
' 10 (Recess at 8:22 p.m.)
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y* . -.. s .. > 43 P 1 THE STATE OF TEXAS 3 2 COUNTY OF HARRIS: 3 t { 4 I, R. Patrick Tate, CSR #1730 and Notary Public in and
.! 5 for the State of Texas e certify that the facts as stated in i
j 6 the caption hereto are true; that testimony of the witness i j 7 as indicated herein was had before me by the said witness 8 after being first duly cautioned and sworn to testify the 1 i 9 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, and the 1
. 10 same were thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under j 11 my direction. l l-12 I further certify that the above and foregoing (i . : 13 deposition, as set forth in typewriting is a full, true and i
14 correct transcript of the proceedings had at the time of l 15 taking of said sworn. I 16 In testimony whereof, witness my hand, this 21st
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17 day of March, 1986.
- 18 i 19 My Business address is:
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. nA . 3 < c, 2 w 1 1712 Esperson Buildings h. Patrick Tate, CSR #1730 20 Houston, Texas 77002 Notary Public in and for l My current certification the State of Texas l 21 expires: 12-31-86 My Commission Expires: 10-27-89 l i
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TATE REPORTING SERVICE, (713) 222-7177 1:
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