ML20237L386
| ML20237L386 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Comanche Peak  |
| Issue date: | 05/29/1986 |
| From: | Thomas Young NRC OFFICE OF INSPECTION & ENFORCEMENT (IE REGION IV) |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20237F760 | List:
|
| References | |
| NUDOCS 8708200200 | |
| Download: ML20237L386 (89) | |
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l t l \ 1 y .------------- - 2 - 3 9 l 5 STATEMEhT OF: THOMAS HOLTON YOUNG 6 1 I'
; 7 BATE: May 29th. 1986 '
8 , 1 9 PLACE: Rocky R Notel
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10 Burlingtons Kansas 11 1 12 IN TE RR OG A TOR : MR. GEORGE A. NULLEY. JR.
- '- 1 13 4 t ./ Nuclear Regulatory Comsnission !
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, office of Inspector & Auditor J
i 15 , Washington. D.C. 20555 '
- lb 17 SHORTHAAD REPORTER: Ms. Janene M. Hill. CSR. RPR
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.- . Hostetler & Associates 19 9200 West 67th Street .
20 Shawnee Mission. Kansas 66202 21 - \ 5 22 i '
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& ASS Attachment I REG 81ERED P5K)FE P O. BOX 4589 *w w 8708200200 B70819 MEE MISSION. KS (913) 2624100 KANSAS CITY. MO. (816) 4216052 PDR ADOCK 05000445 --- . O PDR .n .--, - .. . - . - . - - - - .-
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i 2 1 "THCMAS HOLTON YOUhG,
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having been first duly' affirmed to tell the truth, the 2 i
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3 whole truth, and nothing but the truth testifies-and says:- i 4 INTERROGATE 0h 5 BY MR. Mui. LEY : t b G. The time is eight minutes past three. The date ; 7 is the 29th of May. 198b, and we are in Room 23 of the 1 i i 4 Rocky R Pctel, Scrlington, Kansas. 'present are Mr. 9 Thomast 10 ~l A. Right. Thomas Holton Young. 11 C. Thomas Holton Young who was a former consultant i 12 for Region IV, NRC, working at Comanche peak. My name is 13 George fulley. I'm the special assistant to the director 1 84 of the office of inspector and auditor, and the court ' 15 reporters Janene M. Hill. 16 l Mr. Young, we are here today at my request to t 17 discuss information that you may have concerning Region ! I < la l IV's management of the regulatory process at the Comanche l 19
- Peak nuclear power station, but before we start, would you i' 20 briefly give for us a summary of your background, your '
21 experiences and educationf " i ! 22 A. Okay. I've got -- first experience in the 23 i nuclear industry was in 1970, and here is a copy of my 2 44 resuse. SS in engineering physics, assorted courses to do
! 25 with auciting and codes. welding, industrial 7 '
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- & ASSOCIATES. INC REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL. REPORTERS P O. sox 4589 . OVERLAND PARK. KS. 66204 9 SHAWNEE MISSloN, KS (913) 2624100 KANSAS CITY. Mo. (016) 4216052
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3 1 instrumentation, electrical. nondestructive examination. 2 I'm a senior raember of American Society for 3 Quality Control, and by exam I obtained a certified 4 I quality engineer and by exam obtained certified welding 5 inspector through AWS. Am a member of that and member of 6 American Nuclear Society. 7 Have werked on a contract consulting basis since 6 about 1980. Price to that I've worked for nuclear 9
! component manufacturers. such as Westinghouse, and then 10 worked for architect engineer and then worked with 11 utilities. constructors on a consulting basis to ---a lot 12 of it has been to help them get back up to speed working 13 in such places as WPS No. 2. Nidland and Clinton and
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14 trouble spots to help them get back up to sp1!ed and get 15 going again. 16 Q. When did you begin working for Region IV at 17 Comanche Feakt i la A. Abcut August 20th. '85. 19 Q. And how long were you down theref 20 A. t Till the end of November. 21 Q. '85f i 22 A.
'85. right and the reason I was told I was i 23 leaving was because the funds ran out.
i' 24 Q. What funds were they; do you knowf l l 25 A. I don't know. I was told that the pot from f . .. . t g3
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REGISTERED PROFESSO44. REPORTERS P o. Box 4589 + OVERT.ANo PAAK, KS. 66204 SHAWNEE MESON, KS (913) 2624100
- KANSAS CITY, Mo. (816) 4214052 p e -,. ,,g,--- - - - - - --
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, 4 1, which I was cPawing was now empty.
2 Q. Who told you thatt 3 A. Mr. Westerman. Tom Westerman. Knowing that 4 others are still there and others are still doing work
-i 5 sith Shannon Phillips and they were similar to the same i b i
contract through Parameter -- I was there working -- I was 7 contracted to Action Systems who was contracted to a Parameter, and there were other people that were there 9 through Parameter. and I think they're still there now. l 10 If you hant. here is a copy of my resume. 11 Q. ' Thank you. I'll mark the resume as Exhibit 1. i 12 (Whereupon. Stetement ' 13 Exhibit 1 was marked for identification.) i 14 A.
! If you want me to. I'll sign it on the back
- 15 because I usually do.
16 (Whereupon. the witness signs
! 17 document.)
la A. It says it's true and complete at the end, but i 19 I've done some week early tLis year f or TV A. well, j e 20 investigating allegations over there. They weren't a
; 2I direct client. I was working for Quality Technology.
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;, 22 Q. Yeah. I.know them well.
o 23 A. That I've heard. 24 Q. Mr. Young. what was your involvement or what I 2$ involvement have you had out at Comanche Peakt i 1 1
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REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS P o sox 4589 . OVERLAND PARK. KS. 66204 SHAWNEE MISSloN. KS (913) 262-0100 KANSAS CITY, Mo. (816) 4214052 .i .
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I I 5 ! 1 A. Okap. Well, at fir.st I was asked to come and 1 2 hork with the task -- I guess task group. I guess they're , l 3 called, or task force -- task group. Tom Westerman was j 4 the head of that. He. and Barnes was one of his 5 assistants, and let's see. I'm trying to remember the 6 guy's -- I think the names are in the report or something. . 7 if I remember. I have a hard time remembering the names. a Worked on the task group and that was mainly to 9 look at in the QA section of the task group. ! j 10 Q. The QA sectionf l 11 A. Right. l 12 Q. That was --
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13 A. My responsibility. 1 1 14 Q. - i your responsibility. That's share you were ' 15 hired on as a corsultantf ' 16 A. Well, you know. it was a matter of like was I 17 going to get stuck in mechanical or QA or whatever, and la they decided they wantec me to be in the QA group. I 19 Q. When ycu say they, who are you talking aboutf 20 A. Westersan. I went to Washington. D.C. -- no to a 21 e Bethesda. excuse me, and interviewedwith Heissman, i i 22
, Rohrbacher, and there was an attorney there when I was 23 1 l
talking with Westerman on the phone in TexLs. and so there l 24 was an attorney there with Heissman, and Westerman was un 25 !, the phone, assume it was either at Region IV or at t':_ - r , 7 , 'v j
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b j 1 Comanche Feak'. and.another guy that was there in I l 2 Washington. he was in charge of the project from the
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3 l Sethesda standpoint. ' 4 Q. Vince hewmant i i 5 A. No.
; b Q. Ippilitof !
7 A. Whof i 6 Q. Ippili to-f f ! 9 A. This gly was young. I think he had like sandy l 10 or reddish hair. Thi n . I'd say probably about six twe. 11 six foot. j 12 Q. I don't know. t s 13 j A. Okay. In any case. so I started with the
! 14 interview there, and I guess during the interview one 15 thing that was disconcerting even there. I wondered about.
16 was after I talxed to Roger Rohrbacher -- I went in with
. l 17 him to Heissman's office and one of Heissman's comments la was " Don't make too much emphasis on QA." He said -- he 19 complimented me en my resume, thought I had good judgment 20 and he said, "We don't want to-push this QA thing."
21 Dio he expand on that at a'llf d. i
- 22 A. Not really.
23 Q. Did yoL ask him what exactly he meant when he l
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said thatf f 25 A. Well, he did say that he wanted to -- they were xH
& ASSOCIATES. INC REGISTERED PROFES$a0NAL REPORTERS P o 90X 4589 . OVERLAND PARK, KS. 66204 GHAWNEE MISSloN KS(913)2624100 KANSAS CITY, Mo. (816) 4216052 5 .s _... . - . - - .~. ~
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I 7 1 concerned abo'ut eardware. They weren't concerned about 2 . t h e C A s c m' u ch b t. t the hardware. 3 G. Okay. 4 A. After he left his office. Roger saio. " Don't pay j 5 so much attention to what he said about the QA." Roger l b seemed to have -- at least what he expressed to me -- he i 7 has concerned aucut what Heissman said. and he was more 8 concerned about it than Heissman. So from that I just --
*l after the interview I got called up and went tu the site.
l 10
.Went tc there and we were askea to review some 11 documents that we were going to work to. See if we had any 12 comments or questions. and we were to review the program
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_ - based on those dccuments, and I remember as I began to
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review the program one of my first comments was they said 15 they were going to use -- lb Q. I When ycu say program, just let me interrupt? l 17 A. This was the program that ERC and TUGC0 -- 16 Q. The QA programf 19 A. Well. that was kind of an iffy thing. That was l 20 one of the questions I brought up.
.i No. I was they weren't 21 work.ing under TCFR 50. Appendix 8. which I questioned j 22 that.
I saio. Well, wait'a minute, these guys are going 23 l i to make decisions about whether the program is good or bad
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and whether the equ'ipment was good or bad, but they still { 25 weren' t under TCFR 50 Appendix 8. 1 (w .
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i l l l a . ( l 1 You'knows there was some question about I there 2 has nothing dona about it for* a couple of months. , 3 Another question I raised was, look. they say 1 s 4 they are going to sample according to fiill Standard 105D. 5 I said. "Look, my background" -- I'm a certified !
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b engineer. 1 You can't take something unless you've already 7 proven that you Fave a stabilized process. That's what a that is for. No. 1. it's for a stabilized process, and
- 9 the standarc is also used. It's more for tne supplier
! i 10 than it is fce the person that's receiving the goods. ' i 11 Well they were going to try to use it on things i i 12 that there wasn't uniform processes. It should ce used on i e
. w. 13 something where you're producing parts off a machine where
' I 14 1 you've assured ycurself that that machine is basically 15 stable, and when it starts to go out, then you can check 16 it and tell that you need to shut your program down, and i -
17 i I that was the whole thing. i la It's a sampling technique that -- there are L ' 19 probably some things in the nuclear industry that you 20 could use it for. but they would have to be high volume
) 21 where a factory cr somebody is producing something like on
, 22 a production line, not where you've got. for instance. 25
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.i different. welders welding on electrical, and they may be 24 changing machines that they're using from day-to-day.
j 25 They may be changing types of' weld wire or process or i , , 7
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- KANSAS CITY. Mo. (816) 4216052 d.,
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9 1 whatever theyre using that day. j 4 c' So I tcld tnem I didn't think it was valid. Ano 3 Barnes agreed that he didn't think it was right, but there s 4 again, it was something that seemed like it was just going 5 to wait. let NRC respono insteao of just saying. hey, we l
'b rieed to stop this right now instead of letting it flow and 7 then come back and do it over again. l 8
So, let's see, it was asked in the QA group -- 9 there was. let's see. Lukei myself ano Joe -- well. I'll 1 10 j have to wait till I rememoer his name. I 11 d. Taffyf 12 A. No. i This was another consultant.
; 13 C. Ch. okay.
14 A. 4 Luke was a consultant to EEEG. Joe was through 15 RTS. EERG had a contract with NRC. RTS had a contract 16 with paraseter with the NRC. Anyways. we kind of divided 17 i up amongst Luke. Joe anc I what we were going to look at la i in terms of GA items, and later the leader of that little 19 ! group. he was kind of surprised at the ones I picked. 20 i I picked the one that had to do with the fuel j 21 pool liner, the ASTM code hangers an'd -- let me borrow the
', 22 i resume, and I'll look at it again. ASTM material i
23 traceability, on-site fabrication, housekeeping and j 24 i cleanliness and fuel pool liner documentation, and that j 25 i ... was -- we were soppo'.ed to look at those versus, the (' ') \ i "
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& ASSOCLATES. INC RECSTERED PROFESSOdL REPORTERS P o. sox 4589 . OVERLAND PARK, KS. 66204 SHAWNEE MISSION KS(913)2620100
- KANSAS CITY, Mo. (816) 4214052 i
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1 supplemental safety evaluation reports and their other ) i i 2 commitments. 3 One of the things that came up was I did --
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4 there was kind of a strange situation on housekeeping and
- 5. cleanliness. Instead of ERC going out and doing their own 6 housekeeping and cleanliness aucits or surveillance oy- l I
7 themselves, they were going out and overviewing TUGC0 ~ 8 doing it. That's not how the other ones, the other i 9 categories were being done, ERC was going out and coing ' l 10 their own evaluation. ' 11 In this case I can remember going out and 12 watching and seeing that like TUGC0 and the guy from ERC i 13 l woulo 1cck at items. but they didn't. you know, they i 1 14 i weren't looking for items a,round that might be related to 15 housekeeping and cleanliness. i
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16 3 f I remerber going up to. I guess the -- uhat do i l 17 they call it -- the mi11 wright shop. They were doing some la -- they were putting together the cooling shroud for the 19 control red drives and we were looking at some ! 20 housekeeping and cleanliness. l 21 Right cutside the building"there was a big 22 garage door that was open. and I was watching to see how 23 J they were' going to take c.are of the items that were 24 outside but it was very obvious as you looked inside. you I
.) 25 could see these crates there of things, and they were
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, KANSAS CITY, Mo. (816) 421,4052 4 ?en % e ,
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11 1 filthy. You could see that from 10. 15 feet away, and l 2 there were some -- they had grinding biscs and -- a-3 grinding cisc that had been marked for use for stainless 4 steel was just laying on the ground, and I didn't know I 5 whether that was - you're not supposed to contaminate 6 stainless steel. So ! didn't know if somebody was just l 7 able to pick that up and use it again or what, but that a wastt't a good situation. 9 Walked in and looked at -- it was a stainless l 1 10 steel shroud. cocling shroud for the concedl rod drives. l l 1 11 and there was, oh, animal waste, there was hair, there was 12 bees' nests.
! There was all kinds of -- and this was l
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,l v supposeo to be in warehouse storage, and I asked them. I
} 14 said. "Where did you get thisf" I asked the millwrights.
; 15 I asked them. "WPere did you get thisf" And,they said. l Lb "Oh,
,. it just came.up from" -- it was Warehouse B. and t h e. y 17
-- I was curious because here was something that was
{ 16 supposec to be in warchcuse storage and it was supposedly 19 being checkee on a regular basis by somebody, and it was 20 just filthy, and so I raiseo a concern about that. and I
, 21 know that's something that got pushed aside.
1 22 I got saved off of that, and I was going to i 23 start to ao some work with Shannon, and then Joe the guy 24 froc RTS was put on it. He didn't have a whole lot of QA 25 experience. j >
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REG 67EREO PROFES$3ONAL REPORTERS P O. box 4589 . overt.ANo PARK. KE. 66204
. SHAWNEE MISSloN. KS (913) 2624100
- KANSAS CITY. Mo. (816) 42140S2 N y e _y0 * ' * * *
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- 12 1 1. Who dic you raise this concern withf 2 A. Oh, Iar and Westerman was there. We'd have a 3 meeting just about every day.
4 C. How were they pushed asidef 5 A. Simple they took me off of it. They said, you 6 know. " Don't worry about it. It's only cleanliness," but 1 7 I said - you knew, the idea of a sampling program, if we { 8 go back to any quality program, you can't inspect 9 1 everything. Okay, you know, in quality circles, we'll say I 10 that a 10C percent inspection is not 100 percent 11 effective. 12 What ycu need to do is have some sort of I 13 sampling programa That's uhat QA is about, and the whole
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L 14 idea is if ycu gc out there*and you do a surveillance or 15 i if you co an audit. if you find something, you're only 16 taking a sample, and that sample should make you realize 17 that it isn't just this one item that we found that's f l j la wrong. l 19 There's a good possibility that there's 20 something wrong with the program or the operation of one 21 ~ ! individual or grcup of individuals, because if you have a
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problem and you did it on a sample and it isn't by any l 23 means a large sarple when you do an auditor's 24 surveillance. Fcr instance, that thing that came up in 25 the warehouse, if it was in Class B storage. someone
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& ASSOCIATES. INC REGSTERED PROFESSIONAL REPCRTERS Po. box 4589 e oVERLANo PARK, KS. 66204 SHAWNEE MISSloN, KS (913)2624100
- KANSAS CITY, Mo (8to) 4214052
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13 1 should have realized that Wait a minute. we have to go 2 cown there new ard do something about'this and get on.the 3 stick and check. 4 Maybe there's some items that are safety
- j 5 significant as well as being safety related that should be
! 6 investigated. WP'at's happened in the pastf You know, is 7
.! there any damagef Has that been the case for yearst 8 You knew. I mean it was obvious by the amount of j 9 dust that was piled up on that one as well as all the
} 10 animal matter anc all that stuff and debris in there that 11 somebody hadn't looked at that thing probably for at
- 12 least. I would guess, probably pushing a year. So, what
. 13 that mace me woncer was, well. what's the rest of the i _
l 14 warehouse like. 4
; 15 When I asked those guys from TLGCO they said
- lb they dion't go dcwn there. i They weren't t'he ones i 17 inspecting there.
l l : So I related this in the meeting. Like 18 , I say. sesetimes -- it got to the point I think we startec 19
' to meet like twice a week, but to sit down and relate some 20 l
of these items ard particularly new items and follow-up so 21 i that people coulc know and other people could hear what j 22 was going on, they seemed to not be so interested in i ! I 23 housekeeping and cleanliness. 24 But I know that one of the big things with 25 housekeeping and cleanliness the more dirt and dust' and (,y, l j ,
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& ASSOCIATES. INC REGSTEMD PROFES$0NAL REPORTERS P o. box 4589 . oVERLAPO PARK, KS. 64204 SHAWNEE MSSION. KS (913) 2624100 KANSAS CITY, Mo. (816) 4216052 1
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A 14 1 so forth you get into the systems, the more likely it is 2 to -- small pieces of dirt and so forth can' damage the 3 valve seat or dirt can stop a switch from working, 4 electrical switches and so forth. 5 It doesn't take much dirt. It doesn't make a { 6 difference whether it's a car or a nuclear plant with I 7
, great components. A little bit of dirt and stuff can get 8
in there. and sore of that dirt can get in the wrong i system. It craates hot spots and stuf f too. So I was i 10 concerneo about it, but there didn't seem to be any l 11 concern on the part of the leaders there. !
; 12 Let's see, some of the other items , ERC wa s ! ! j 13 running kind of slow.
i So I didn't have a lot to be able 14 to look at for theres and I started dcing the work with 15 Shannon. I guess I kind of innocently thought or naively 16 I thought that the reason I was being shuffled over there l 17 was Shannon needed help more than they wanted somebody to { 18 shut up, and I really begart to get the impression later 19 from some of the other guys like Dave Brown, he was the 20 first guy to leave, and I really got the impression from j 21 not just Dave, but other guys, that he left under duress i l 22 or whatever. 23 i, He didn't want to leave particularly. but I j 24 think there was things that he was questioning or whatever { 25 that they didn't appr.eciate. He was the ucchanical -- he l s>";)
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REGSTERED PROFES$10NAL REPORTERS ,1 P o. box 4589 . oVERLANo PARK. KS. 66204 SHAWNEE MG$loN. KS (913) 262 0100 KANSAS CITY. Mo. (816) 4214052 7 ---- -
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15 1 was a professional engineer. He was in the mechanical 2 group, ano hc was looking.at hangers an'd so forth, and I 3 think he was raising questions they just didn't want to 4 address. 5 G. When ycu say they, once again you're talking b aboutt 7 A. Westerran and -- I don't know. Lee may have 6 wanted it -- Les was his imme'diate lead. Lee may have
. 9 wanted to accress them, but Lee wasn't the one that 10 decided whether Pe stayed or went.- That was Westerman.
11 Sb I don't know. I.2 I remember Ian saying early on in the game he
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i ..- was afraid he was going to be the one that was going to be 14 the scapegoat for the whole deal. I mean he was mulling 15 over in his mind that. hey, this is a $5-million project l lb
'l and if anyone is going to take the fall, it's going to be t, 17 Ian Earnes because -- whether ha gets things straightened 18 out erathey don't get straightened out. He didn't say 5
19 those wercs, but he thought he was the one that was going 20 to get bopped. 21 When I worked with -- well let's see. There 22 i was one thing that I ended up being tied to housekeeping 23 and cleanliness and then it was.a civil thing. And it
]I 24 tied me between the two groups, and I think this was I
f 25 something that they sure didn't like. l '6 - h W'
..w.. m m.% . & ASSOCIATES,INC REGSTERED PROFE$$r.34AL, REPORTERS Po. box 4589 . OVERLANo PAAK KS 66204 ' SHAWNEE MGSloN. KS S13) 2624100
- KANSAS CITY, Mo. (816) 4216052
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.. . . -- - - . - .. . . b 16 1 W h a t' it was was there was a seismic gap between 2
buildings, and that allows the buildings to basically 1 3 move, the whole tuilding, and there's an air gap, and 4 there had been a lot of debriss some concrete slopped. 5 3 some foame some -- just like somebody's lunch or just 1 b i t whatever, mayce some tools or whatever dropped between. i 7 like I say, between the reactor building and the fuel I ( i a building and so forth, and these were being looked at by I 9 the civil group. but I was looking at it too because it ) 10 i was a housekeeping issue with were we going to have l 11 anymore problem. ( They weren't coordinated to gaps and i 12 t stuff, but could I see if there was anything that would i i l 13 !
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tie over to anything later or if they were going to pour !
! 14 more cor. crete or build another building later. they had to 15 be able to ccerect their processes so it wouldn't happen 16 if they would go and build more units.
l 17 i
- So as I lookeo at it, I began to look -- talked I 16 to Bill -- let's see, there was a guy from EEaG in the 19 civil group he was -- he wasn't concerned so much from a 20 technical standpcint. He figured they could saw down or i
! 21 use one of these hydrolasers and cle'r a out that concrete.
22 and it oidn't appear that there would be that much of a 23 problem. 1 i They wculd be able to get enough seismic j 24 interaction because a lot of the stuff had gone to the
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bottom and that's where you need the least in*araction. d
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& ASSOCIATES. INC.
REGISTERED PROFESSIOML REPORTERS P O Box 4589 + oVERLANo PARK. KS 66204 SHAWNEE MrSSioN, KS (913) 2624100
- KANSAS CITY. Mo (816) 4216052
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17 1 Where you need the most is at the top where you're going 2 to get more swing at the top than at the bottom, but as I 3 looked at it, I went back to lock at it from the QA 4 standpoint and housekeeping and cleanliness. t 5 I looked back and I reviewed some of the same 6 reports that.had been reviewed by a previous NRC 7 inspector, and as I did that, I looked at the exact -- it i 8 wasn't just the same type of report, but I looked at the 9 exact same reports, and what I found was the guy, the NRC 10 inspecter shculd have written up the person for using 11 forms that weren't the forms that were required by the 12 I I procedure, and CPe guy oidn't get all that he should 13 have. . j 14 So this was one of the items that they saidi I i 15 "Well, we'll take care of that later." I don't know if 16 that ever got stuck in one of the reports. l j See, they i 17 could have lumpec that in with what they were going to La l summarize in the civil, but it really wasn't a civil 19 problem. It was a dA problem related to housekeeping and 20 cleanliness. 21 i It was a matter -- and may6e they didn't like 22 that I was going cack. Here was a previous NRC inspector, 23 he looked at the exact same documents, and there was three 24 or four violations that weren't written up, and it wasn't 25 just a satter of the forms. l Part 'or it was a metter that + l I.r') 6 w _-- 1 1
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REGSTERED P90FESSONAL REPORTERS s P.o. box 4589
- oVERLANo PARK. KS. 66204
; SHAWNEE MLSSION. KS (913) 2624100
- KANSAS CITY. Mo. (816) 4214052
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there was -- the inspection was improper. not by the NRC ) 2 inspector, by the first individual, and he didn't catch 3 these things, anc I wrote them cown, and they said. "We'll l 4 take" care of ther later. " And I guess I didn't quite I 5 understand that because it really wasn't the civil problem 6 so much as here has a problem with the ability of 1 7 inspectors to inspect and them -- the ability of j 6 inspectcrs to follow procedures. 9 l . i So what that points out to me is in my sample as
)
10 I go out there-and -- I see here is an inspector that
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11 coesn't know his procedures in terms of which forms to use l 12 but from a technical basis, and that should add to the 13 i problem. like they had already adoressed the fact that
, 14 there was a problem with electrical inspectors. So we l
15 should say maybe we need to look at some of the civil 4 lb inspectors or whatever group has been assigned to look at I
; 17 these procedures, i
la i So it wasn't just the minor problem. In one 19 sense it was a sample. They were saying they wanted to i 20 use 105D. and our samples, you go out there and find that > t 21 kind of thing, they should have looked at the broader
- 22 scope of we better look at more inspectors.
8 23 Okay. d I got over and I started reviewing for l 24 Shannon some old items that had been open over a long 25 period of time and hadn't been closed yet because .hore ('s r
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, & ASSOCIATES,INC -
AEOSTERED MCFESSO4% REPORTERS s P o. IbOX 4589 + ovERLANo PARK, KS. 66204 SHAWNEE MISSION, KS (913) 2$24100
- KANSAS C1TY, MO. (816) 4214052 4
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19 1 was either more inspection needed or the utility hadn' t 2 completed sor.:e werk yet or maybe finally they said they 3 had completed the work and they were ready for us to
% inspect.
5
- d. When ycu',re talking acout Shanron. you're b talking about Shannon Phillips, the senior residentf 7 A. Right. So I started work with Shannon 8 essentially the whole time. I got pulled back over. asked 9
by Joe a couple cf questions about that cooling shroud. 10 He went to see about the other one, and he just didn't 11 seem to think there was a big deal. The trouble again was 12 there Jce didn't have a lot of GA experi.ence, and he was
.~ 13 thinking about.jtst this one item. *
\ i s f i 14 Well, raybe this one item wasn't all that 15 important. The problem was who wasn't properly inspecting
, lb' housekeeping and cleanliness and keeping down the r
) l; 17 deleterious material off of items in the warehouse. Maybe i 18 that itet wasn't so important. l Maybe some other items 19 were ano they weren't being inspected either. 20 That's the question I raised. just like the f 21 seismic gap, the stuff in the gap. i f the inspector 22 { didn't see it it wasn't following procedures. had the same 23 kind of problem in the warehouse. i 24 1 That's what you need to look at, not just the ! l 25 one ites, and that's what concerned me. ! People takt, it l
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& ASSOCIATES. INC NCSTERED PROFESSCHAL REPORTERS
.I R o. box ve9 . ovERLANo PARK. KS 66204 I SHAWNEE MSSloN. KS (913) 262 0100 KANSAS CITY, Mo. (816) 4214052 t j
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l 20 with blinders on ano look at the one problem.
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1 If there's 2 a problem witn -- I don't care if its the utility. NRC or l 3 NRC consultant, there was a broader problem than the one I 4 doing the sarple. J 5 So I, as I go over to work with Shannon on these 1 6 old problems. what came up is I may go to try to close an l I 7 item anc co an audit, oh. for instance on how they would l 8 cistribute drawirgs and chariges to drawings or changes to l 9 specifications. and the utility said. "I don't know how 10 l 4 you do it, but ycu founo the only one that was wrong." and 11 I said. "I don't know about that" but went out and found 12 out how they had -- three or four instances of goit.g back. l 13 and where the utility really thought. Well we've got our
l 14
, act together finally on this, done some work and may have l 15 updated their computer system related to the records but i*
lb sometimes, here again, it was a matter of not everybody 17 had communicated as to who was supposed to remove what. la t For instance, the one that went out there and 19 for some Class I-E electrical equipment, they had a group 20 of drawings and then their updates, in other words.
; 21 changes to them, and somebody, the electrician had come 22 in, and he was going to do some work that day on this I-E 4 .i 23 electrical equipaent, and there was a deal where one
- l 24 person from the records center would sit down and read a l 'i 25 list o f what revision ea.ch item should be and the other I i
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, REGSTERED PROFESSOML MPORTERS P o. box 4589
- OVERLAND PAAK. KS. 66204 SHAWNEE MISSloN. MS (913) 2624100 e KANSAS CITY. Mo. (816) 4214052 1
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21 l 1 person would go through the packet and say I "Yes that's j t 2 the right revisien; yes. that's the right revision, yes." ( l I 3 and. they had doce that practice, except for in the ! 1 4 package there was one that was "an old revision. j i ? 5 So wher. the foreman came back in with the guy i l b that hac pulled it, he said, his expression was. "Oh. you l 7 l mean I shouis check." and I saio. "wooh." What it l 8 tasically meant was that here was a foreman that was 9 pulling out and they were working on Class I-E equipment. l 10 electrical eculprent. and it just so happens that day that 11 something happened, he couldn't work on that one he had 12 ;ullec, but ey concern was here was an electrical foreman I
! 13 that dicn't know how important it was to make sure he had h 14 a right revision of the drawing. and in thf., case, in that 15 particular case that I looked at, there was a major change 16 to the crawing that had he installed it that way and it 17 had been inspected that way, it would have been a problem la because there was a major change in the equipment.
19 Se I went thecugh several items, and Shannon was 20 saying, well, he didn't care. In the one sense if it's 21 good, it's good. If it's bad, it's bad. So I'd go out
, 22 there and probably at least half the items I went to 23 inspect to see that, the utilities said they were closed I
24 or find out that there was either a continuing problem on i i 25 that or come up with a new problem, and one of those l 0 v
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, & ASSOCIATES,INC REGSTERED PROFESS 10% RUCRTERS p o. Box 4589 + oVEPLAND PARK. KS. 64204
; SHNWEE MISSION. KS (913) 2624100 e KANSAS CITt Mo. (816) 4214052
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instances relatec to that seismic air gap that, you know. 2 I tried to write up the thing. I had'it written up and it 3 cidn't get into the report. 4
, Now maybe it's in the report now, but I don't 5 know. The last few weeks I was there I got into -- I had b some pecple that I knew from other sites I had worked at.
7 You know. I had a run into them in the halls or out in the 8 power block er scmething like thats and one of them said 9 to me, said. " Hey, I' ve got a problem." I said, "Well, l 10 here I am working for the NRC. I've got to consider it 11 from that standpcint." I said, "What." and the one guy 12 expressed a problem with what they called -- this was a 13 group in TUGCO, let's see. I'll fino my notes here. v
, 14 They were working for Paul Leyendecker who was I
15 the TUGC0 surveillance supervisce, and let's see, okay. it , 16 was between this group. the TUGC0 surveillance group. the 17 quality engineering group. this is TUGC0 too. Apparently j la i .. there was differences of opinion as the guys from 19 Leyendecker's gecup would go out and they would reinspect 20 something that had been done by what was supposed to be 21 the original inspectors. t 22 So what they were doing was like a surveillance 23 or over inspecticn. which was a good idea. It was a way
} 24 to go out and see is the guy that'originall'y inspected, is i
- 25 he capable of doing an inspection.
1 Capable means two t
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& ASSOCIATES,INC REG 6TERED PROFESSIONAL REPCRTER$
l, R o. sox 4589 . OVERLAND PARK. KS. 66204
,' SHAWNEE MISSloN. KS (913) 2624100 KANSAS C.TY. Mo. (816) 4216052 N'
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23 1 things: If there's something wrong he has to be able to 2 find it. On the other hand. if you ca'll something wrong 3 when it's right, that's not good either. The guy has got 4 to be able to call some things. if something is black.
]
5 Pe's got to be able to call it black, if it's gray. he's
, b got to be able tc call it gray, if it's white he's got to 7 he abl( :s call it white.
8 One guy came up and told me he said. "Look. Tom. 9 what -- I've got a problem with -- J man goes out and he 10 looks at an electrical cable tray, and he has an attribute 11 for spacing between the rungs in cable tray and the man 12 checks yes. it's okay when in fact it's a solid bottom 13 cable tray and trere ar'e no rungs." l _. l 14 Well. the QE group was saying, well, the guy 15 just didn't know how to fill out the form. Okay. That's 1b a prooles. If he doesn't know how to fill out the form. 17 is it because he didn't understand the procedure or what.
! 18 or on the other hand. did the guy know how to fill out the 19 form ano just not go out there and inspectf And there I
20 were other -- let's see, there were several problems. 21 ' I think there was another one similar to that 22 regarding terminal lugs. similar to the kind of thing l 23 where they check. yes, it was okay on an attribute that
! 24 didn't exist out there. There again, either the man i l' 25 doesn't know how to do his procedure, what -
you need to
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, & ASSOCIATES,INC s
REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS R o. P*X 458F e OVERLANo PARX, KS. 66204 SHAWNEE M6 Slo, KS(913)2624100
- KANSAS CITY, MO. (816) 4214052
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24 1 retrain him cri ycu need to put in not applicable if it's 2, not applicable. ce the guy inspected it from his desk or
, 3 he coulo have gore out and maybe he didn't know how to 4 locate. \
{ 5 l i That was something I put forth. I said the man I I
- l. 6 could either be inspecting from his desk. He could be I
' I 7 going out anc inspecting the wrong cable tray which is a
bad cr worse , yot, know, he goes out and he honestly thinks 9 he's looking at the right thing and he marks down, and 10 maybe ycu have tuo people inspect the same thing and they , 11 both call it goods but another one that he should have l I
- i 12 inspected says it is bad and he didn't see it.
1 - 13 So in any case, what it does is raise the l 1
} 14 question where did the inspector make his error; does he 15 not know how to ao th'a procedure, does he not know how to 16 find the cable tray or does he just inspect from his 17 desk.
18 But they had several quite a few instances 19 l where there was an attribute out there. Cable trays was 20 one, ano I think this terminal lugs was the other that. I 21 you know, the guy said. Yes, it'sokhy.buttherewasno f 22 attribute. So there was a real squawk. and I know 23 Leyendecker had a problem with it. 24 He was -- I remember talking with him, and he 1 25 just dion't like the way things were going. The QE group i i V
& ASSOCIATES,INC 9 REGSTERED PROFESSIOML REPORTERS R o. Box 4580
- OVERLAND PARK. KS. 66204 SH4YNEE MISSloN, KS (913) 2624100 KANSAS CITY, Mo. (816) 4214052 1.
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25 J 1 was run by Cuhtis Biggs. His group was the one that had 2 the final n.Ry. So in other words, the original TUGC0 3 inspector would go out, and we'll say he said yes, it's 4 good, and then Leyendecker's group, the surveillance 5 group. would go out and say yes. it's good. Then there's b no problem. If the first guy went out and said no. it's ! 7 bad. Then let's say -- Leyendecker's g.'oup didn't even go a cut. but if he WEnt out and Saic yes. t's good and then # 9 t Leyendecker's group went out and said no, it's bad. Then 10 t CE would go out. they may go out too, and they would 11 cecide themselves if it was one of these, quote, just j 12 paperwork problers where the guy just didn't know how to 13 fill out the fore. l ~- Then they said it was okay, and they
! 14 had the final say.
i 15 So. let's see -- nou my concern was there that 16 both these guys that had told me this and then when I was i 17 over there talking to those two, thert was some other guys la that said. " Yeah, why don't you go look at this, why don't 19 you go look at thisf" l This was this PAC group. 20 c. Okay. I 21 A. Guys from PAC. " 1 I 22 Q. That's P A Cf 23 A. l i That's P A C. that's project assistant l 24 corporation. j 25 Q. Ano they were with TUGCor t 1 ! i
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%& ASSOCtATES,INC. Ell i REGSTERED PROFESSOdL REPORTERS
' P o. box 4589 e oVERLAPO PARK, KS. 66204
! '3HAWNER MISSON, KS (913) 2624100 e KANSAS CnY. Mo. (816)4214052
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26 1 A. l Yeah, they were a consulting group too. 2 Q. TUGC0f 3 A. Yeah, they were consultants to TUGCO. 4 G. Right. 5 A. Okay.
! j 6 G. So what did you do with that information that l I
( 7 they gave youf
)
8 A. That's where I made thc file about three inches 9 thick, and this was getting near the end of -- I kept on 10 getting as much. information as I could. Lut they already 11 tolo me ey centract was up. They ran out of m.oney. 12 4. They being Who , told you that? 13 A.
~
Westerran told me that. So I got as much 14 information as I could. I made a file. I made a copy o f 15 the -- I had a ccmputer printout sheet that had a listing 16 of all the -- let's see, what do they call that. IWC 17 l rejects, and they were. oh. I don't know. I've got one. i 18 4 two. three, four pages listing, and these were just the I l 19 ones where there was a dispute. i So I left that computer 20 list. and then I went and got copies of all those i
! 21 reports.
i I think they were called SSRI's and I put on the 22 top of it like NCR column, where there is an NCR -- Y was 23 a NCR issued by QE. 4
} U means QE. agrees so there was no N(R l 1 24 issued. S means QE does not agree, and C. called ] 25 incorrectly. So I made a copy of all the reports they lO l
j . ...
& ASSOCIATES. INC REG 6TERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTER $
P O. box 43B9 . OVERLANo PARK. KS. 66204
. SHAWNEE MlSSloN. KS (913) 2624100 KANSAS CITY. MO. (816) 4214052 b , N 6 h .**' *** see m
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_ _ . . . .. J. - 3 i i 27 1 neeoed to lock at. i 2 l These kere the reports that were generated by 3 the surveillance group -- made copies of the report to 1 4 phil Halstead whc was the TUGC0 site -- let's see, call S him QC ranager. I think, but he was the head GC on site j 6 i for two or three months -- which indicated where some of
! 7 the guys had had some problems.
1 6 And what elsef Wel).. anyways, left a file aoout
\ 9 three inches thick. Told them the steps that I went 10 through to get tc where I did, and then I talked to.
11 what's his name. Mark Emerson. After. Shannon had to take . 12 l the allegation. I guess. since I figured I was the e '13 consul tan t , he needed to write it up and he did. i t ,_,./ I 14 C. So you reported the allegation to Shannonf 15 .A. Right. l % Q. And do you recall the nature of what you
! 17 reporteo to Shannon, how was it worded; do you recall. I i la mean formally the allegations 19 A. I rean it's here. I mean this is what he wrote.
20 and I'l1 tell you if there's any problem. l 21 "On November 24th, 1H5 i Mi'. Thomas Young. an 22 NRC consultant irformed me of an allegation or concern s 23 made during conversations with site personnel. It is 24
. alleged that Texas Utilities Genetating Company. TUGCO.
25 management has become increasingly uncomfortable with
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, & ASSOCIATES,INC.
J REGSTERED PRCFESSONAL REPORTERS P o. box 4589
- OVERLAND PAAML KS. 66204 SHAWNEE MtSSloN. KS (913) 2624100 KANSAS CnY. Mo. (816) d216052
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28 1 adverse treno's reported by a site consultant. group." That 2 site consultant group was PAC. 3 Now the adverse trends related to what I was j 4 talking to you about before. and that was groups
.l ,
5 disagreeing and ACR's not being written when in fact there 3 6 was a problem, and one group was saying. Well
.i it's just a l 7 paperwork preblea. when it really sounded to me like 8 quality program, at least. or inspector training problem. l 9
t "It seers that these trends are viewed as 10 embarrassing and possibly a threat to licensing the plant 11 in the immediate future." I can't disagree with that
< 12 because that's what the guy indicated.
He said. " Hey. I
,] 13 think maybe they're concerned about this thing being l 14 licensed." whatever. That may be fairly far reaching 15 because they were only doing a sample. The surveillance lb group again was just doing a sample to see whecher or not t
i l 17 the inspectors were capable of coing their work. and if 3 18 the sample shows up that there was a problem, then that 19 means ycu need tc go back and reinspect those inspectors' 20 work. i 21 So obviously that can draw'in more than just -- t 22 the ones originally thought of was the electrical. and the
; 23 bad part about this was, when I was down there for tha i
j 24 task group. ERC has hired by TUGC0 to look at the work o
-l 25 that hao already been done. These guys from TUGC0 in the 1
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._ & ASSOCIATES. INC REGSTEREO PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS P O. BOX 4s0 . OVERLANo PARK KS. 66204
*. SHAWNCE MISSloN. KS (913) 2624100 KANSAS CITY. Mo. (816) 42'.6052
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1 29 1 surveilla'nce ' group were looking at the work that was being 2 cone right then, the ongoing work. So the [roblem there 3 was it hadn't gotten corrected. i 4 h Okay. "Nembers of the consultant group." that ; 5 i was FAC. "have been informed that the consultant's ' I 6 contract will not be renewed." This isn't exactly what I 7 call uncommon in the incustry. In other words somebody S 6 is brought in. paid to do a job. They go out -- and I I 9 know these guys, how much experience they have. I mean i 1 10 none of these guys that I'm talking about that came to me ! 11 or pipeo up when I was over there in the office asking 12 questions have less enan 10 years' experience, probably !
! 13 pushing 2C a lot of them.
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So it wasn't like they,were j 14
- dumb or didn't know what they were talking about.
1 i 15 They were colo their contract wasn't going to be 16 renewed and some of them were being of fered to come over 17 to TUGCO. i So guys were thinking about their jobs and so i la forth. "And, i sore connect this action with TUGC0's 19 frustration." Scme of those guys thought that was part of 20 the reason that they were being moved out as a group was 21 because they were finding too many problems. continuing. 22 now problems. Ycu know. for example. they could have 23 maybe found a pecblem -- the impression they lef't me with 24 i was that had they found problems that while they were in 25 l the past and they're not having a problem now. that's (%s'
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& ASSOCIATES,INC AEGISTEAED PROFESSIONAL AEPORTERS R o. box 4589 . oVE3LANo PAAK. KS. 68204
' SHAWNEE MGSloN. KS (913) 2624100 KANSAS CITY. Mo. !816) 4214052
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1 30 1 ckay, but now"we're still having them. That means you 2 still haven't got your act'together and that's no good. 3 So they f el t they were being pushed and shoved. 4 and I would say at least five guys mentioned concern of j 5 " Hey, ycu ought to 90 look at this." Two of them got real I b specific, talked'to me and gave me copies of reports. I 7 went to their head of their groups so they wouldn't be 6 Exposed.
'l d. What did you find when you looked et the l 10 reports. did you verifyf l
11 A. I had to agree with them. l I could see there was ' 12 quite a few. This four-page list of the computer printout 13 that I gave left a copy, told Mark Emerson, and he must 14
! have -- he had tc talk to Westerman because Westerman came 15 !
over anc talked about it. and he didn't like the lb allegations going on. You know. he didn't like the way l { l 17 i the allegation was worded. I can't help it. i la Q. Whc was hef 1*l A. Westertran. All I've got to due if a guy tells 20 me, " Lock. these guys are frustr'a*;ed and the reason 21 they're shoving us out of here was bdceuse we weren't 14 22 doing our work tre way they wanted us to." meaning they i t 23
! were doing too gcod a job, all I'm doing is reporting what } 24 they saic. If they think that's the reason. that's what 25 needs to be investigated. If they think they're being i/O
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< & ASSOCIATES,INC >
x REGISTERED PROFESSO4AL REPORTERS P O. box 4589 . OVERLAND PARK. KS. 66204 SHAWNEE MISSION. KS (913) 2624100 + KANSAG CITY, Mo (816) 4214082 L ,. _. , . _ _ - . .~ ~~- ~ - -- w______-______
31 1 intimidated a'nd barassed in a quality mode. it needs to be 2 investigated. 3 Westernan supposedly went back over there later 4 and talked to these guys, and they knew me -- one guy was
, 5 reel specific anc had some complaints. It was funny --
6 the one guy said -- Westerman told me on the phone that
}
7 t42 one guy said there wasn't a trend. but then he 8 mentioned there has a whole bunch of them in the same l 9 thing. I guess be didn't understano the >ord trend, in l 10 the sense -- I don't know how Tom approachea them on it -- 11 when you have one item and it's continued over several l 12 months, that's a trend. I guess he didn't understand what I d i 13 l kesterman meant khen he said there was a trend. He said. 14 "No, there wasn't a trend." but he did express there was 15 several items. That's what he expressed to me, and that's L lb what he expressec to Westermen. There were several 17 probleme. I guess there was a communication problem on 18 what a trend is. 1 l 19 The other guy that said there wasn't a trend.
- 20 he's the one in the computer analysis group. He's the one 21 that mace the ruroff. He explainedall this. You can see 22 all the discrepancies between QE and the surveillance l 23 group. There's a whole bunch of them.
t I 24 So for him to say to Westerman that there was no 25 trend either, he was afraiv for his job already, and he r j , < ,t W1El & ASSOCIATES. INC REGISTERET PROFES50e% REPORTERS I PO. Box 4M9 - oVERLAPO PARK. KS. 66204 { SHAWNEE MIS $loN. KS (913) 2624100
- KANSAS CITY, Mo. (816) 4214052 7 7.,& -
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7.. . I bd 1 cidn't want t'o bE seen -- I think Westerman approached 2 . them on site which r. hat's not too good. 3 G. How do you know what they told Westermant 4 A. f Westerran talked to me. d 5 G. So he reporteo -- 6 A. I talked to Shannon too. l
. ? C. As far as --
1 6 A. I called them cack as friends and saic, you l 9 know. " Hey." I can't want to mention na~res. 10 G. Right. 11 A. "What cid he say to youf" Well, some of the 12 things jived, but I guess it'just sounds crazy to me how i 1 i 13 Westerman or ar.ytody that understands the word trend -- 1.- . 1 14 mayce the guy said "No, there's a trend, but there's been 15 a continuing problem " and all these examples. the guy. l 16 i shoulo say. "0kay. you oidn't understand the word trend." 17 G. It was a trenof 18 A. Right. The other guy knew.
. . . _ He knew what . trend--
19 was. He saic. ")ere is a trend. I'll show you." He's 20 the one doing a computer analysis, pulling all these items ,
- 21
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out. . . doing the scets, and he knew. and. for him to say _ ~ 22
' there wasn't any. I thi'nk he was concerned about- his job. ~
, 23 d. Okay.
.- .' ... a i But you did verify;.bi talkingeto these. .
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24 &~ ~ ' . w . . individt.als that they did say there wasino -tr,end. 'o'r iare's .. 25 you getting that from Westermant
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33 1 A. I gdt that from Westerman. They told me 2 firsthanc before Westerman ever talked to them at all. 3 That's how the allegation ca!.ie up to begin with, " Hey. 4 we've got a trend." 5 .G. Okay. That'.s the point I want to make. They b told you there's a treno. Westerman comes back to you and
, 7 said these guys said there was no trend. You never went 6 back ano said. "khat did you tell Westermanf" 9 A. No.
10 C. The information you're getting now as what they 11 ' told Westerman is coming from Westerman nowf 12 A. Right.
"Two of the personnel -- two of the 13 consultant personnel working in the inspection process
! 14 control group stated that the ccrrect'ive action taken by i
15 TUGC0 quality engineeririg is a joke." That's what they lb tolo me. Now this is -- that's their words. , I mean it 17 wasn't me. It wasn't srmething Shannon changed around. 18 Trr,,se guys said. "Ch. quality engineering is a joka " I 19 sean, that's bad when they think it's a joke. "And this ) 20 is specifically true.of electrical area trends." They're 21 the ones that mertioned trends, and again, like I say, 22 they approached re. I cidn't approach them. l j 23 i After I got over therc. I went back several e4 times, abcut four or five times, waiting for reports and 2C getting so f orth outn and the people in the' group iO
. }-p& ASSOCIATES.INCSiML
'f* ' MGISTERED PROFESS 80re% REPOMERS
.. P O. 3cx 4589 . OVERLAND PARK. KS. 66204 I SHAWNEE MISSloN. KS (913)2624100
- KANSAS CrrY, Mo. (816) 4214052
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34 1 including. let's see. I talked to Randy Byrd, he's a 2 Daniel emplojee en a contract at TUGCO. _He and Larry. I 3 think it's Bast, works for Ebasco, he's the corrective 4 actiori supervisor. Those two generated the reports that 5 sent to Halstead. They tell paul Leyendecker's group what l b to inspect. 7 okay, the rest of this letter.
. He says, "I 8
recommend that this matter be investigated immediately 9 because the consultant group will probably leave site
, } 10 within 3C days." Yeah, the guys told me when they were ~
11 supposec to leave. I think it got delayed frc: the midole 12 of December to the middle of January. but in any case.
.- 13 "At this point in time, all this group is 14 available for interviews on site." There was a guy that 15 was in that group that I had worked with befnre. He was 16 the heae of the group. He was either parallel to 17 Leyendecker er Leyendecker took his place, one or a the i la other, ano he hac expressed some concerns.
! He didn't get 19 specific, but he just said -- this is a guy that had over 20 30 yea s' experience.
21 He saic i you know, basically indicatad that they 22 cidn't want to get things straightened out. And he was 23 concerned about Pis reputation. He just didn't want to 24 stay, and I had worked with him at Midland. ! So he knew I j 25 liked tc be in a place that had problems, long term. 7" o) l
; . & ASSOCIATES,INC RGOESTERED PROFESSICPdL REPORTERS I
I P o. box 4589 . OVERLAND PARK. KS. 66204 SHAWNEE MISSION. KS (913) 262 0100
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35 l , 1 Bac'k te the letter. "This item is also 2 important because it implicates current TUGC0 3 management." okay. These guys were saying that they were i 4 bumping up to like Halstead. ano he knew there was t t l (i 5 proolems between GE and the surveillance supervisor, you 6 know, one group said one thing was no good and the other 7 one saio. no, it's just a paperwork problem. i Said there l 8 was a trend. Nothing was being done. That's what they f 9 were incicating, that management didn't want to do 10 anything with it. t 11 Q. Right. I i 12 A. Okcty. "Also, activity in the electrical area in I t l 13 Unit 2 is extremely high and if adverse trends continue. J l l 14 improper GC inspections and improper work may be j I
- 15 proceeding." That was the concern I had. They had found i 1
16 some specific examples c' their samples, and that sample i 17 there again meant. hey, if I look at an inspector and I l 1 i I. la find one cf the inspectors screwed up on three or four i 19 items. I better look at everything of that inspector. ! 20 That's what tneir report should show, anc management j 21 should say, yeah. I agree, we need t'o look a t this guy 1 22 back for such and such a time. 23 Q.
!' So, when Westerman came to you, how would you ), 24 summarize his opinion of the allegations l
25 A. He just talked to me on the phone. J 1 i
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REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS l 1 P o box 4589
- oVERLANo PARK, KS. 66204 SHAWNEE MISSloN, KS (913) 2624100 KANSAS CITY, Mo. (816) 4216052
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- 36 1 4. Ok a'y . 6 hat did he say to'you; did he think the 2
allegation had any merite was 11e going te do any work witn 3 it, what hag he cone with itf 1 4 A. Well, be said that he talked to the guys, and he l 5 didn't seem real concerned, and he said it had been put I b into the system, meaning the NRC's tracking system. That 7 means scmebocy wrote it up. Now I don't know if he did 6 that or not. 9 C. And you left the' package with Emerson; is that 10 correctf 11 A. ! No. I left the package -- I was working in 12 Shannon's trailer -- " 13 l l Q. Right. .
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j 14 A. -- at that point which is right next to 15 Westermari. Westerman had been over there. I told
, 1b Emerson. I saide You've got a three-inch thick file 1 t
17 i I here," ano I toic him what was in it, you know, and I had i 18 listed everything that was in it And gave him
! some 19 directicns. told Emerson, and Emerson had got back to 20 Westerman apparently and asked Westerman to handle it, and 21 Westerman acted en the pl.cie like, chi he didn't know 4
; 22 anything about it.
.I j 23 Q. Okay.
' i 24 A. So I don't know.
; 25 G.
i . And you personally feel these allegations were
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}-{CRXLEl & ASSOCIATES. INC REGETEMD PROFESSIONAL REPORTER $
P O. Box 4589 . oVERLANo PARK, KS 66204 SHAWNEE MISSloN, MS (913) 26J4100 . KANSAS CITY, MO. (816) 4214052
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v 37 - 1 significant. the concerns that the-PAC people hadf 2 A. The guys that came'to me. like I said, the guys 3 .that came to me -- the first two guys that came to me. I _i
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know they don't have anything less than 10 years' 5 experience. I'd say they're poshing 20, both of them. i i 6 d. And they felt there was something significant
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!. ' 7 and that the NRC should look into itf j! 8 A. Yeah. Otherwise they wouldn't have come to me. 9 They hac tried tc work it up through,their own .l l 10 management. That's what they need to do. 11 Q. Okay. i 12 .A. Ancther. item -- did they talk to you about SISCO 13 sealst
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14 d. Yes. I was going tc ask you about the BISCO 15 seals and what ycu founc. lb A. j Before we get to BISCO. there was some other j 17 items related right there on site involving records. I l 18 think I really stirred up the pot bad on records. I was li i trying to -- I was reviewing the changes to drawings, and ! . 20 I went op to the piping hanger group, and I was trying to
' 21 l
4 follow through with some changes that didn't quite make 22 sense.
'l 23 I wanted to m&ke sure that there was adequate
't l 24 documentation on the changes and so forth, and I asked one.
25 ; the supervisors up there. I said. "Do you have a' copy of ' iOdbh I 1 TEILFlt
& ASSOCIATES,INC
, , MOSTEMD PROPEN MPORTEM
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5 P o. 80X 4600 . OVERLANo PARK. KS. 66204 SHAWNEE MS$loN. MS (913)2624100 KANSAS CITY, Mo. (S1S)d210062
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38 iI 1 thist " And he said. " Wall, no. .. We shipped them to New 2 York to Stonc & kebster." and I said -- they said for a 3 complete re-analysis. I said. "Okay. But you have a copy 4 here on site, don' t you, of thacf " And be said.' "No." i 5 And I said. "Well. does Stone & Webster have a second 1 1 s l copyf bho has a second copyf Do you have it on t 7 microfilmf" "Well, there isn't." t And he saic I said. j a "You mean you sert the original recordf" And I said. 9 "Well how many cf these are theref" And he says, 10 " Thousands of them."
' And I saic. "Welli how many pieces 11 of paper in each recordf" l He said. "Oh. 40 or 50." !
j 12 So we? e talking about at least a half a million
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pieces of documer.ts for their original analysis of --
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t 14 engineering analysis of the desi'gn configuration in all > { 15 these hangars
. and at that point. I just said. "Well.
j lb thank you." I i 17 I went back and sat down, and I knew there was a 18 problem. , I sat cown. I showed Shannon what I went 1 19 through. He saic. "Are you kiddingf Let's go talk to 20 them. I want to go there too."
,i So we went through the i
21 process again anc ~~ to see what they had. They didn't I 22 even have records. They didn't know what they had sent
. 23 Stone a Webster.
24 c. There war no inventory done of the documents l j 25 that they had sentf i t
}-f615JR . & ASSOCIATES. INC REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL MEPORTERS P o. DoX 4589 . oVERLANo PARK. KS. 66204
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39 1 A. They may nave done it on a few packages. 'They 2 knew essenticily which packages they had sent, but they l 3 didn't know what was in each package. and they didn't have 4 in force -- I checked with Stone & Webster, Stone 1 5 Webster on site and in New York. They didn't have a l .. b procedure in place of receiving those documents and 7 inventorying ther. So you know. Then we asked. "Well, a how did you ship themt These are your only records. How i did you ship therf" He said. " Cardboard record boxes." 10 and I said, you know. 11 So they didn't protect the records either. So I 12 looked at that. Let's see. that was, you know, that was 13 their piping analysis. 14
, Then I went down. looked in the vaults and i 15 checked the vault,s and saw that the one vault that had 16
; been in use for. I don't know. I guess originally was 17 going to be their final vault, but it wasn't. had no floor la drains. Didn't have a spinkler system.
19 All they had was hand-held fire extinguishers. ,
, 20 and they i.ere inside the door which is bad because, you l
' q 21 j
i know, if the fire is inside, you canft get them. You l j 22 . I 3 know, you want te have them open and ready when you're ) t 23 going to open the door because that's one of the worse 24 times. l 25 You open ene door and the fire is going to come l
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40 i 1 out, ano through - 'I guess you have to call it a 2 temporary wall because it wasn't all -~ it wasn't -- I I 3 wasn't a firewall. There was like a door between one l 4 portion and an acjoining vault. And there was records in N 5 J there and there was a cof fee pot in there and there was 1 l i b some food crumbs. \ i I guess they had some doughnuts. and 7 i there was a leak in the roof that had been there. and they 6 had fooleo with it. I guess, off and on supposedly trying 9 to fix that thinc for about four years. 10 So we were concerned about the moisture content 11 in the area and so forth ir teras of the records. and then 12 let's see. I looked at the records that were out in the 13 trailers, and sirce they were going through this I 14 i reverification process with the NRC and so forth, they had 15
, taken some recorcs that had been permanently vaulted and lb they hao to do scme more inspection on them or they were 17 going tc do reinspection. So they took them out of the j 18 vault. They weren't just documents. They were ewcords.
19 individual records, that were put in the packets, and they 20 were saying. yeah, but.it's a package now. 21 i They were individual documents with records in 22 there. So what they had were records and documents i 23 together in nonfireproof file safas and just a standard 1 24 t office in trailers and some of those had sprinkler systems 25 and some of them didn't. I i 0
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' P o. Box 4S10 . ovEA!.AND PARK, KS. C6204 SHAWNEE MISGoN KS (913) 2624100 . KANSA9 CITY, Mo. (816) 4214052
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41 1 There has another -- the purchasing file. I'went A over there tc talk to them, and that building. let's see. 3 they didn't have a sprinkler system. They had several 4 places both cn the wall and the ceiling where it was just 5 a plywooo patch, and then there was a plywood wall and 1 6 outside of that khere it wasn't even secured, there was 7 files, ano I asked one of the clerks there. they had a receivec a let of this purchasing information down from 9 Dallas to the site and they weren't sure what was in the 10 files. whether they had duplicates of them or not. 11 I They didn't know whether the only originals were ! 12 in some cf those files. They weren't sure. So then what 13
, s was to be their ultima'te final vault, which was over near
. 14 \
the. 1 guess the operating administration area. I guess 15 you'd call it but their ultimate vault et least when I 16 was down 3 there -- whether there was another one or not I
- 17 i don't know -- when I was down there in the fall of '85 j 18 i
there, they didn't have a Halon system. They had a water 19 sprinkler system. I said. "0kay, if you go down and look j 20 at the ANCI stancards, what you need to consider if you're i 21
! not going to have a Halon systeS is what damage - you've i I 22 I
i got to keep the noisture content in the radiograph and the i 23 1 other area within a certain level. " 24 What are you going to dof" l i l l 25 ' They had nice rolling shelves, but they were i
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, & ASSOCIATES. INC scenne.o notssa meonnas l
P o. Box 4589
- oVERLAPC *AAK KS. 66204
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.j SHMNEE MIS $1oN. MS (913) 2624100 . KA4AS CITY, Mos(816)4214052 .1 .1 l
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l I l a l I 42 l 1 open anc racks c'd racks and racks of permanent records 2 that were sitting ir folders that were open on both faces 3 on the shelf. So it vould roll. And there was a water l 4 sprinkler system. So if there was either a fire or 5 something set off the water sprinkler system, the water ) ! f b would destroy all the records. t 7 And I said, now, the standard also says that they have to be ready with c floor train of adequate 8 i 9 capacity. So I asked them what was the capacity of the i ! LG floor train. They didn't know. They had to go make 5 11
, calculations on tha floor train to make sure there was i
, 12 sufficient capacity to withdraw the water so it didn't 1 13 tuild up to the level of the records from a flood 14 standpoint.
15 I And I said, "Have you * . . Jone a time test, one 16 of your fire brigadef" l' I said, "You've got 4 fire system 17 here in ycur reccrds system. What if you hcve a fire in i i la the cable spreading roomf That's where the guys are goi.n.g . . . _ . . . . . . 19 to 90. The fire brigade is going to go there. How long 20 is it going to take them to get to your records centerf. '
! 21 n. . . ;. . .
,3 How much is going to get buil t ' up and. .-
so" f orthf" .Th'ey, I .- 22 hadn't dcne any calculations. They.had no'. idea how long
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, , . . . . . . . . . . .. - .. - e 43 1 They said. "Witlli we considered it." They thought abcut 2 it. That's all they dio, wa.s they thought about it.
3 Well, consider ir. those terms, in engineering terms and 4 techn'ical terms it means if I'm going to use a Halon l /, 5 system. then I need to know what else I'm going to do with b that. 7 If I'm going to use a water system. I need to
.l a consider all these things before I build it. and they j i
; 9 hadn't cone it. I 10 Q. What standards are we talking about that they
; ]
11 violatec first in the transportation of the originals off 12 the site, the way they storec documents on site. plus the f 13 way they transported documents on the site? , 1 14 A. ANCI N45.2.9. 4 l 15 G. Now that would cover bothf i i 16 A. The stcrage and shipping of the records. l
'I 17 d. Okay.
4 I
! 16 A. Now this became a real hard spo' f or Westerman.
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19 He came over, and I think he must -- he must have grilled 20 Shannon on that I would estimate at least, what I knew l j 21 about its probacly five hours. I mEtan, just I would say 1 j 22 if I was in Shannon's position. I would have been badgered 4
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'.! 24 They didn't want to hear about it. They brought 1
j 25 in -- they seid. Well, no the national -- I guess it was
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& ASSOCIATFS. INC REGSlERED PROFESSOeAL REPORTERS P.o. sox 4589 . OVERLANo PARK, KS. 66204
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- KANSAS CITY. MO, (Sie) 421-6052
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44 1 NFPA, Nationa'l Fire Protection Association. They said. 2 Well, here they.got stuff from -- I think it was even from 3 Washington. Somebody had looked at this before and they 4 ignored it. 5 Here is another thing where apparently somecody b from NRC -- these recoros problems, they had these records 7 vaults like this for years. Nobody had said anything 6 about it. 50 -- l 9 G. When ycu say they had something from this fire 10 protectioni who is .theyf l 11 A. NRC. Region IV and Washington. 12 G. Okay. Somebody other than Shannon Phillipsf 13 A. Other than Shannon. They said " Hey, you know. i 14 water will get tc a deep seated fire." Okay. That's 15
, true, but see, they didn't address some of these other 16 issues of what are you going to do about the moisture 17 ruining the records by the water that's used to put the la fire out, and there was some other things that in the NFPA 19 stancarcs that they looked at one paragraph. but they 20 didn't go down three more paragraphs that would have said, 21 "You're convicted. You didn't do right."
22 C. The standard again, what is it, the NF -- 23 A. t National Fire Protection Association. 24
- d. Okay. The NFPA standard, war that in any way in i
25 conflict with the ANCI standardf I I l : i.D v - I i
& ASSOCIATES. INC.
MG4TERED PROFESSIONAL 4 REPORfERS P o. sox 4509 . OVERT.ANo PAAK. KS. 68204 I 99WNEE MISSloN. KS (913) 2624100 . KANSAS CITY. Mo. (816) 4216052
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i 1 l ! I i i 1 - 45 l 1 A.. They were looking up in the NFPA standard a -- 2 like a lot of standards. the regulatory guides say use ! 3 this or give us an -- you give us a reason for an i 9 alternate. " 5 Well, if you use something else like NFPA and ! b say NFPA reccmmerds that you use water, that's fine, but i I 7 you've got to calculate for your floor trains. and you ! l l 8 have to know that up front and you have to know what are l 9 you going to do to protect these open shelves of records, i I 10 and I'm trying tc think what else -- well, the funny part ' 11 about it, I don' t remember the exact words but I remember 12 Shannon was working on it. 13 That's still just as I was about to leave, and I a 14 looked ano cculd see that somebody from either Region IV 15 or Washington said, "Look." and they circled something in j 16 the NFPA. If th e y wo ul'd have gone three or five more 17 paragraphs, they would have seen that yeah, but they had a { 18 i problem still, the vary standard that they were using to 19 justify the fact that they had proved what was already 20 there later on said you've got a problem. 2 21 G. So let me get this right -- t
.j 22 A. One paragraph might have said. "This part is 23 okay." but Paragraph 5 would say, for instance. "No.
I 24 there's something else you've got to deal with that you 25 haven't dealt with."
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t * & ASSOCIATES. INC REGISTERED PROFESSOe% REPORTERS
' P o. Box 4589 + ovERLANo PARK. KS. C3204 SHAWNEE MtS3.oN. KS (st3) 262 0100 e KANSAS CITY, Mo. (816) 4214052 P
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46 1 G. Okay. So apparently the NRC had considered tnis 2 problem in the past?
! 3 A. Right.
4 G. Ano they used the standard adopted by the 5 Naticnal Fire Prctection Association as being the guiding b standarc; is that correctf 7 A. They used that as acceptable -- let's see, what i a do they call it -- archive. archive-type records. 9 G. Okay. Ano apparently during discussions of this 10 standare there was still problems with the way things were 11 being done by TUGC0f 12 A. Right. l l i 13 G. They were not in compliance with the standardt i {' 14 A. Right.
' \
15 G. To what standard was TUGC0 committed to; was it, l 4 16 committed to the ANCI standard or -- 17 A. i They were committed to the ANCI. I think it was
- la a draf t -- we hao those in like Shannon's trailer. just 11 looked it up.
20 G. So if they were committed to the ANCI standard. 21 why was it appropriate for them to even be considering. 22 4 you know. the other standard. the National Fire Protection
', 23 Association stancardf 24 A. Well. If I remember correctly. that NFPA
'! 25 standaro is mentioned in, either in the red guide or the
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& ASSOCIATES. INC RfGIS1ERED PROFESSIONAL REEWERS P o. BOX d'89 . OVERLAND PARK, KS. 66204
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i 47 I 1 l ANCI standard'as like a reference or something that you 2 right censidce -- i i 3 G. Okay. I i 4 A. -- as an alternate, but that NFPA -- they were 5 convicted by the NFPA thing as well. i 1 6 4. Either wayf 1
! 7 A. Either way, right. and the problem was I think i i
a both it goes back to the same thing of like on the seismic k 9 gap. Here is sorething that the NRC looked at before and i i 10 they weren't willing to say, "Okay. We screwed up. I'm f 11 sorry. i This is what you've got to oo." because they had a 12 problem with the records that were in thJ trailers. 13
~
They had records and do'cuments in standard file 4
! 14 i cabinets in a trailer that -- you know, a trailer will go 15 1 up in a good 15 rinutes, a trailer is gone. You might lb
- have your sprinkler system there and that's about it.
j 17 d. Now the records that we were talking about that la got shipped up to New York belonged to what firmf 19 A. They were TUGCO's records. 20 G. Right, being sent upf 21 A. By TUGC0 to Stone & WebsteE. Stone & Webster 22 was going to do a re-analysis. l 23 d. Okay. i { 24 , A. -- of all these designs. l 25 G. Were trere any problems with the CB&I records I f* f
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; & ASSOCIATES. INC REGLSTERED PROFE REPORTERS P o. box 4569 + oVERLANo P49K. KS. 66204 SHM/ NEE MISSION. KS (913) 2624100 KANSAS CITY, FC (516) 4214052 l
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48 1 being sent of f the site; are you familiar with that at 2 411f' ' 3 A. I hearc that Y 1>had a problem with that. 4 L wasn't looking at that in particular, but I understand a I
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. 5 similar kind of thing.
h d. Nappe'ned with thatf 7 l A. Sase thing. They were shipped improperly. 8 4. Was there a violation written as a result of i what you went through with Stone & Webstorf 10 A. On the recordst 11 d. Yes.
, 12 -
A. , Well, kesterman went up and.he said -- he told 13 them to stop shipping records. So he essentially stopped l 14 work. - 1 15 d. - Which eeans'that he recognizes something is I Ik wrong thenf l 17 A. Yeah, at least that's what he said, that he had i la 1 l i stopped them fros shipping any more records. Okay. I li . don't know, it kind of went back and forth, and like I 20 t said, I would say on the records between this thing on the
- 21
! L fire protection and the records, they were related [, 22 obviously because -as they're being shipped -- no concern 23 of being protected from fire or wnatever- as they.were 24 being shipped, nct uhder a separats record or something, 25 tither a fireprocf safe or protected by a separate
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ns 1 Cocurent. I I 2 He reccgnized there was a problem about the 3 sh ip tre n t of records and he stopped it, but after that. l I l 4 like I say, I'd probably say that there was so much i l l 5 argument went on over the records because TUGC0 did not b f want to budge in terms of -- thEy didn't want to put the i 7 records that were intermingled with the documents in the 8 packages out in the field in fireproof safes. It cost too 9 much money fer tre fireproof safes.
, That was mentioned in i
10 a meeting. 1
'll j Somebody said thate and somebody must have t i 12 kicked the guy urder the table because that's what I 13 heard. They went to the meeting. One guy from TUCC0 14 said, indicated something about the money, and he must j 15 have got a swift kick under the table or something oecause 16 i
the other guy mentioned those problems. So I don't know. ! i.
! 17 Q.
When you said Westerman spent about five hours ( 18 with Phillips -- i 19 A. That's just a minimum I'd say. I was there -- I 20 mean I heard - I mean it was just like a thing of like if I t' 21 you could
! imagine like someone sittirig on the witness 22 stand just being grilled and lashed at and just --
23 Q. What pcsition did Phillips take as far as what 24 did he want to de about itf 25 A. Well, he wanted them to put the records in the [D v !
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& ASSOClATES. INC t REG 57ERED PROFESSN REPORTERS
- 7 o. Box 4589 . oVERLANo PARK. KS. 6A206 SHAWNEE MSSloN. KS (913) 2624100 e KANSAS CITY, Mo. (816) 4214052 l
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l 1 trailers in firegroof safes. He didn't have a problem and ] l 2 neither did I I think, you know, if they want to have 3 L their records back out in the field so the guys can look 4 at it and they check them out properly arid so forth. 5 fine. I b The thing with the vaults -- I mean needed the l 7 roof fixed on the one portion of tha t one vault 50 they e didn't set a leak. They got the coffee pot and stuff out I i 9 right away as socn as we mentioned that because if i 10 somebody forgot to turn that off -- I think there was a i I i 11 copier in there, a copy machine. I That stuff can cause a l 12 fire. They said. "Well i we always turn it off." Well. i j 13 you know, all you neeo to do is slip up once and that can
! 14 l cause a fire, there wen't your records. They said. well.
15 they could ccpy it again. That's not an assurance. The I 16 i assurance is to keep it from happening to begin with. j 17 And Shannon really wanted them to do something j la i in terms of the ultimate record vault that was there on l-19 site that had the water sprinkler system and the open
.i 20 shelves. They did the calculation, brought me the i i ;
i 21 calculations on the floor train and so forth, but the i 22 question was still there. I said. " Yeah. but you still
! 23 have a moisture problem, and what happens to the records l 24 l that are on those open shelves when the sprinker system j j.- 25 comes ont " I mean they're do!uged with water.
-s They are !
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51 i 1 their permanent records. and I don't know if that's been 2 cealt with. I dcn't know whether it's been written up. 3 Like I say, just back and forth. 4 Q. And'so basically phillips wanted to do something 5 to correct the situation, make them.come under compliance. l 6 and Westerman's tone was what, just forget itf i .. L 7 A. Yeah, it was through Westerman we got the stuff , . 8 about the NFFA. " Hey. look, we've looked at it before. l 9 We've had special, qualifieo teams to come in here and il ' 10 look at it. and they d.on't have any problem with it." and 11 that bothered me and somebody checked the paragraph. "Look i {, 12 at this in the NFPA" aric just go down a few more : i i - 13 paragraphs and Icok down and laugh.
- v' 14 d. ,
Let se ask you a question about inventorying the 15 records. Ib A. You mean the ones.that were shipped from site to ; i 17 1 Stone a Websterf . la Q. Apparently they've come back by nowf g 19 A. They were supposed to come back. They ! were l 20 supposeo to invertory. We told them -- my understanding 21
- was since I went over there and I fo'und out that there was l 22 no procedure for them to be handling this back and forth 23 -- and once it hit New York it was going to be distributed 24 f
from New York feca Stone & Webster to like Boston. Cherry 25 Hill. New Jersey, and I think it was Houston.'and it might 1 l-{CEER & ASSOCIATES,INC MG61ERED PROFES5stAAL REPORTERS P o. box 4589 . OVERLAND PARK. KS. 66204 SHAWNEE MIS $loN, KS S13)2624100 KMOS CITY Mo. (8W)4218052
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I 52 , 1 have been Oklahora too. i 50 it wasn't like jus't 2 aownstairs. It has going to'have to go by truck or rail 3 or something.again. if G. So how would TUGC0 be able to ascertain when the ) 5 i records were returned to them that they.~in fact. had'all
~
6 the records that they sent outf 7' A. They cculdn't. I 8 G. Unless -- a ! 9 A. r ;
- The only way they could know that was had they
!' 10 inventoried what they got to begin with or had a copy. ano.
11 they hao neither.
! So they had to rely.-on-Stone & Webster i
12 i to properly inventory them up in New York or -- they'd j 13 already distributed some. They had to properly inventory f' 14 them where they sat. They were supposed'to stop work too. f 15 finish their procedure, get it on.line, inventory lb everything that was up there. and then I think they were 17 going to ship them back or make copies. I don't know 1 la what. I i 19 G. Okay. ! 1 t 20 A. Now then you want to talk about the BISCO. '1 I 21 d. Okay. Apparently then in itegion IV Inspection I
- 22 Report 85-14. this issue was covered of the records. w
- I 23 A. Okay. Let me see if I can find.what I wrote up I 24 on it or somethirg. You want some specific examples of j 25 some of the ones that I looked at. Georger i
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@& ASSOC %TES.INCTELEl REGSTERED PROFE88s0NAL REPORTERS i P o box 4509 . OVERLANo PARK KS 86204 SHAWNEE MISSloN. KS (913) 2624100 KANSAS CCY. Mo. (816) 4214052
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53 ) 1 G. Yes; if you have them. i 2 A. O k c y '. l Here in 83 -- these are report numbers. 1 3 83-15-V-01. That gives you the actual item. Remains. } 4 open. .There was a basemental repair not documented on the 5 NCR. There was a new ulolation, the same thing no NCR 1 l t a written. I already talked to you about that. The one.
; 7 the gaps on -- or seismic gaps -- no, skip that.
1 8 Oh. this was one -- I don't know why it didn't 9 get in there. l Maybe it got in later. 64-08-03. Now that la may have ended up getting into a report later. but it 11 remainec open. I There was a new violation -- oh. it's ' i la actually a deviation. I It was on design deviation and 13 installation, a seismic category. 1 and Ei structural { , 14 steel. 15 84-16-4-02, that remained open. There was new lb violations that was -- controlled design document 17 changes. That's the one where I went to investigate the*e ; i la cesign cocument changes. That's where we got into this 19 half million or so records that were shipped by mistane. l 20 No wait a minute. They weren't shipped by mistake. The 21 l guys said they shipped them on purpose, and we asked them l 22 why oidn't they copy them. They said it cost to'o much l . 23 soney. So -- ! 1 24 Q. I have here, if I can interrupt for a minute. 25 I've got the inspection report as was sent out, and I've O i s.-
}- ; WEELEl
, & ASSCCIATES. INC REQ 31EMED PROFECp0NAL REPCRTERS P o. Box '589 e oVERLANo PARK. KS. 66204 9
SHAWNEE M6SloN. KS $13) 2624100
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54 1 got,the areas'they they wrote up. QA Records System j l 2 Review. This is Inspection 85-14-11. This report"wasn't 1 3 sent out until --
't i
l 4 A. Until everybody had massaged itf. l 5 Yeah.
'l C. It 'dian't go out until February of '86.
'l 6 A. Yeah. ,
, ,l 7
C. I'm sorry. did not go until March of '86. I
, 8 Inspection was ccnducted in October of '85.
! 9 A. Yeah.
10 C. i, But would you quickly for me scan some of the 11
.! things that were written concerning the problem you just j 12 ciscussed and see if you agreef '
l-13 A. The way it was writtenf 14 c. The way it was written. We can take a' quick l i 15 rest here. I 16 (Whereupon. a recess was taken.) 3 17 Q. (By Mr. Nulley) Mr. Young, you've had some time 18 to review Region IV Inspection Report 85-14. How accurate 1*l do you feel the violations or the deficiencies that you 20 were involveo with concerning the records were reported in j 21 that inspection reportf , d 22 A. l_:3 Well. I see two that are unresolved problems 23 !]M that were definitely in violation. 24 Q. Which two were they?
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..I 25 A .,
They wculd be 84-14-U07. that;'s on 445. and on 9 3 (.,
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@& ASSOCIATES $XR INC AEGEftMD PROFESSOeM. MPORTERS
,, P o. BOX 4589 . oVERLANo PARK. KS 66204 SHAWNEE MSSloN, KS @13) 2624100 KANSAS CITY. MO. @16) 4214052
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l 55 1 446, it's 85-11-LD7. 2 d. Why do you feel that it was inappropriate to -- 3 A. Because the standard tells them to consider from 4 a technical standpoint up front all the items related to 5 records storage and protection, and they hadn't considered b the results of tre water deluge on open shelving and -- 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. Okay. That was on the UO7. That was the TUGC0 9 record center or sample. They're required to consider up 10 front. Consider doesn't mean just think about it. It 11 means to think atout, consider it from an engineering l 12 standpoint. i If I don't have the Halon system and I have 13 some other systes, then I have to consider all the i ../ t 14 possibilities. I mean that's like asking somebody -- I'm 15 going to build myself a bathroom a,nd a shower and I'm i 16 going tc have a cuarter inch drain in my shower and I 17 don't know
. whether when I take a shower if a little hair 18 falls out of my Pead whether the thing is going to plug up 19 and flow all over my bathroom. Find out up front. That's 20 the whole idea. You're -talking about permanent records.
21 PPRV. They call it UDS. kamethingthere. The 22 fact that that ccnnected part of it had water problems 23 i with a leaky roof and had been there for several years, j 24 they had items in there that could catch fire if somebody j 25 didn't turn them off, a lot of binders. They were on open
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$HAWNEE MtSSIO6. KS (913) 2624t00 . KANSAS CITY, Mo. (816) 4214052
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Sb j 1 bookcases. Same kind of thing. They should have 2 considereo it up front. 3 Let's see, the one that's U05. I don't know. 4 They're saying they're going to let the horse get out of 5
*i the barn and run it around and we'll take it back later.
b They say right here in the body of the repeat they say. 7 cidn't Edoress definitions all facility locations. methoo a to maintain control of and accountability for records and 9 so forth and remove from site storage facility anc 10 temporary storage facilities and they already had 11 violatiens on this. 12 I mean Westerman had stopped work on some of i 13 th'is stuff, and the fact that they're going to let them 1% e have some more time to get their act together, that's kind i 15 of. crazy. They had a violation. They should have the a 16 violation i be recuired to respond with when am I going to 17 have this done, and in the meantime, if they don't respond {
; 18 i t to an unresolved item for three months. they continue the 19 same thing. )
l 20 Q.
.t' .So you think there was enough information 21 i available on some unresolved items to cite them for 22 violationf l
23 A. Oh, no not onc - probably aooui i Gr . Probably
-l 24 one for each of the vaults at least the interrecords 1 25 vault, the permarent plant -- now see here is some. Here i
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& ASSOCIATES. INC REC 47ERED MKFESSOa4 REPORTERS P o. BOX 4589 . oVERL.Ato PARK. KS. 68204
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57 1 in the report'. They call it PPRV. and they seem to have ! 2 reflected that pFRV. as 'a permanent clace as opposed to the 3 TUGCC record center. which is the ultimate repository, at 4 least it has wher I was on the site. i 5 Even ir the report there 's confusion.
.i I mean 6 there's confusior amongst TUGCO. They want to call it 7 permenant. but it isn't. That's what PPRV stands for.
a permanent plant record vault, but they don't want to call 4 9 it permanent because it doesn't meet the standaro. 10 IRV is the one that had the leaks. I don't 11 know. I suppose if you give them enough time on unresolved i I 12 items, they'll get all the records in the permanent plant i i, 13 record vault, ano the problem will go away by removing ) e
, 14 them all, and that's not the way to do it.
15
, Oh. this too. I went out and I asked a them -- \
j lb TUGC0 had sosebocy come in and co an audit. Ebasco, and i
, 17 Eoasco recommended changes. let's see, back in '81.
I They I la ignored them. TUGC0 ignored them. So they had been told , li before there was a problem they ought to correct.
- That's 3 unresolveo. It shouldn't be unresolved.
1 21 Idefiritelygottheimprebsionat least with 22 the reccrcs that they were trying to grind the people down l 23 so evenutally they gave in. They kept on badgering i " i 24 ! .I Shannon. and Sharnon didn't want me to sit in on the 25 meetings because I wasn't NRC personnel. i-I wac a
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56 i i consultant. tut be was taking the heat on all this record l 2 stuff. .And with all the arguing going on. I think it ' 3 would've made Tom Westerman happy if he just would nave 4 said " Forget it." except for maybe copying the records 5 that went to Store & Webster and then getting procedure in f b place.
! l 7
j I think at the point -- he had already gone over l 6 and stopped work on i t. He had to do strething. He had a l 9 violaticn on that. i I'll see if I can -- that's yours, ) i
! 10 rightf i l
11
- d. Right. 1 l
12 A. My concern w'as -- I know there was like one I i 13
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ceviation that I think it was originally supposed to get l
; 14 into that October report and dion't. and that had to do i
15 with. I guess it was -- they call it engineering change to 16 the crawings. There was one situation -- I hope this is 17 written up. I i I tal~.ed to Shannon about it. I talked to
- 18 Westerman about it. That you had a basic drawing, and on 19 the basic drawing there was a stairwell that had to be j 20
; addressac because of seismic -- not because it was safe --
21 "
,, obviously safe, but seismic concerns had fallen down. I 22 guess. ano se that's why we were looking at it, and there
; 23 was an engineering change notice to that, and that 24 engineering change notice was a major modification to the t
I 25 original drawing and then there was a second er.gineering
. 0-1 s l
& ASSOCIATES,INC l
REGSTERED PROFTSSONAL REPORTE#.S P o. BOX 4589
- OVERLAND PAAK, KS 66204 SHAWNEE MGSloN, KS (913) 2624100 KANSAS CITY, Mo. (816) 4214052 6
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_ca . . a .- .. - . _ . . i 1 I 59 1 change notice' and that modified the original drawing. 4 2 In:tead of the drawing as modified by that first 3 engineering change notice. it would be like say -- we're 4 right here near kolf Creek, and it would be like someone ! I j 5 saying I've got a plat of the land that's out there. It j b doesn' t show the cooling lake for Wolf Creek because Wolf 7 Creek isn't here yet. Okay. J 6 Then major modification is Wolf Creek comes in (
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9' i here ano you've got the plant and the lake, and then you j j 10 - I have another charge notice that comes back and says to 11 change the property line that's right in the middle of the l 12 lake when it doesn't even recognize that the lake is 13 there. So I guess, you know. a parallel of what 14 happeneo. So that was a deviation. 15 The guy that made the mistake admitted that 16 there was a eistake. the design engineer. He had been off'
! 17 sick quite a bit. and he come back, and when I got j 18 togethe.' with hit. he admitted that he obviously.never l
19 looked at the original engineering change notice that made j 20 the major modification to this stairwell and he should i 21 have.
- i 22 Now what this tied into is another auditor 23 surveillance that I was doing related to the distribution 24 of engineering change notices. I had asked for the 25 distribution center for the engineers. nuclear iO f v v
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& ASSOCIATES. INC REGas11 RED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS - - P o box 4589 . OVERLAND PARK. KS. 66204 SHAWNEE MISSloN. MS (913) 262 01(D . KANSAS CITY. Mo. (816,4214052 y -- W , -
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j . .. , .., 60 1 engineering, wher a guy goes to make a revision to his 2 drawing. doe: he have the engineering change notices with 3 him, and the man in charge of the document control center 4 says. "ho. he doesn't need them. He either has a copy 5 himself or he kncws what's on that drawing." 6 Well, there was a perfect example of the guy not j 7 knowing what was on the drawing. 50 my concern was here 8 was one deviation where we found the guy. He admitted l 9 that he hadn't had the ECN. It was a major modification. 1 10 not just somethirg minor that'he could have forgotten. 1 11 But it was a majcr modification to che thing which made j 12 his later ECh nonsense. - I ! 13 It was a good example that they needed to change 14 l , their procedure and require that any engineer who was 15 revising the drawing to have all the ECN's that i were l 16 applicable to that drawing right in front of him. So I i 17 that's an engineering design problem.
; One. the stairwell 18 i
may not seem like a big deal. it was a seismic problem. 19 but it pointed to the problem that I already raised.
; 20 I
- I said it sounds like and I wanted that to be an 21 i
1 observation cf that surveillance that they should have j 22 changed the procedure. That was a perfect example.
} 23 What was donef l i That deviation didn't get in one i 24 l
report. It was supposed to get into the next one. I l
! 25 think it was supposed to get into November's, but see I ic s
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, t & ASSOCIATES. INC REGSTERED PROFES$10NAL REPORTERS i
PO. Box 4589 e OVERLAND PARK KS. 66204 l SHAWNEE MISSION, KS (913) 2624100 KANSAS CITY. Mo. (816) 4216052 l 1
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1 I left at the end cf hose'aber. ano I don't know whether it' I 2 got in the report'or not. 3 d. Okay. Sometime b'ack we started talking about 4 the EISCO seals and the issues. What did you find out 5 that gave you sore concern of the BISCO sealst 6 A. Okay. Before we get into 9ISCO. there's 7 something. Glosor -- what's his first nase. He's one of 8 the guys there errough paramete and he raised a major I 9 question about grounding of the main buses in'the incoming 10 lines anc he said they'd always been ,I-E at all the other 11 plants'.he'd been at. He was a' registered professional 12 electrical engineer, had done wcrk at several plants. and, i
.. 13 l I think he hao dcne some other work for the NRC. i 14 He raised a question about the groundings major 15 grounding, and he just laughed. He thought it was crazy.
i lb
! and I remember gcing over and asking him later about it. .
17 and he said. " I t. got taken' care of." The way he said "Got i
; 18
! taken care of" scunded like it got shoved under the rug.
19 Forget about it. So that was something you might talk to l 20 him about.
~,
.} 21 Let's see, okay.
i BISCO seals. I've got to i 22 th' ink how I got started on this. It was a follow-up to
), 23 one of the items that Shannon had written something up. , 24 Ch. here is my chronology. This is.the same chronology.
25 I've got a copy cf what I left them. , okay. This is --
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i P o. BOX 4580 . OVERLAND PARK, KS. 66204 SHAWNEF MSSloN. KS S13' 2624100 KANSAS CRY. Mo. (016) 4214052 A 1 "5 ' -, . gn ;;g - . ,% M..c., , ,,,.i , :; f
i 4 I 62 1 the chronology' I left them is on 64-24-UO4. It was TUGCC's tracFing a144. 2 3 Okay. I lef t this for Westerman and Emerson. 4 Mark Emerson or shoever else needed to look at it. No. 1. 5 '75. there was a fire. BISCO in Chicago Park Ridge. b No. 2. summer of '76. a second fire, unknown 7 what records. original test data are destroyed. a Q. This ist 9 A. At Park Ridge again. 10 c. What cceporation are we talking aboutf 11 A. BISCO. Okay. No. 3. Cctober '7b. PCA. I think i 12 l that stancs for Fortland Cement Association, that's who
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t 13 old the testing cr approved it. , This is the test number.
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14 PCA-Oct-76. Test six configurations. A, 8 and C failed 15 the hose stream. D. E and F pass. A special one-hour lb base hose stream test is used. The test was not to
- 17 IEEE-634.
la C. Which isf 19 A. [ . That's -- IEEE is Institute of Electrical and
; 20 Electronic Engineers. . That's the standard,they were j
.l 21 committed to in the SR. That's why I marked it down. i i
3 22 Q.
- hey being TUGC0f i
' i 23 A.
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i No. 4. IEEE-b34 comes into existence. Let's 4 l 24 see. 1975 SR comeitsent to IEEE-b34 and to ASTME -- I
'j 25 can't read the rest because it's copies.
( RG 1._EL & ASSOCIATES. INC REG 61JRED PROFES$10NAL REPORTER 5 i
' P o box 45fru . oVERLANo PARK. KS. 66204 SHAWNEE MSSioN. KS $13) 2620100 KANSAS CITY, Mo. (816) 4214052 Y~ I
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63 ! l 1 No.'6. 3/17/82. contract award meeting. TUGC0 2 and EISCO. 3 No. 7. 4/12/82. staff of BlaZO mobilization. 4 That means they came on site. 5 1 No. 8 5/24/82. Craft BISCO mobilization.
'4 h That's the craft part of the 8ISCO.
7 okay. No. 9. b/8/82 contract fully executed. 8 I'm getting thess dates and this information from the 3 i
, 9 I
contract administrator for that BISCO contract. TUGCO. I i 10 That was the contract administrator. 11 No. 10 6/15/82. craft stand by. 1 When I say I'm i 12 getting it from him, he has written documents that I was
.- . 13 taking the information out of.
ss 14 l No. 11 7/30/62. craft interim demobilization. " 15 No. 12 craft demobilization. 1/83. Ib No. 13. 7/8/83 TUCC0 audit of BISCO, Chicago. 17 It wasn't to the lath criteria. l 18 There is a question there. i Okay. They didn't 19
-- they have a qLestion in their records, and you remember 20 I
here is TUGC0 that doesn't have their own act together in 21 terms of records, and they're going in and inspecting i I i 22 BISCO fire protection and they have two fires. That's
- i l 23 their business, is fire protection.
i
, 24 c. Wasn't there some question about those fires as j 25 to -- ?
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& ASSOCIATES.INC b d RfCSTEMD PROFES$JONAL REPORTERS P o. Box 4589 . OVERT.AND PARK. KS. 66204 SHAWNEE MISSloN. KS (913) 2624100 KANSAS CITY. Mo. (816) 4214052
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4 64 1 A. Oh.'I con't know. 2 Q.. -- the nature of the originf 3 A. The nature of the origin. I don't know how they l 4
, got started bute you know. the funny part about it is. 1 1
5 I'll tell you later. is that they said that their records j b were destroyed ir the fire. Well, the fire was before the 7 ! records were generated. So there was a long fire from the ' l 8 summer cf 8 7b to October of ' 76.' i It didn't last that ; 9 long. That was the man's excuse, and I'll tell you who it i i 10 was. l 11 All right. No. 14. May. '84. successful fire I j 12 test. i
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13 v No. 15. 7/14/84. NRC Unresolved Item 84-24-004 14 on certifications. That's the certifications of.'9ISC0 15 that these fire-stops are good. j lb Okay. 11/13/84. BISCO. Ackerman to TUGCo.- This 17 is a letter. J. C. Youngblood. That's who in TUGC0 got t la the letter. BISCO met the requirements. MFS. Somebody I 19 sent -- okay. BISCO is saying in that letter'that they i ; 20 set the requirements. the 11/13/84 letter.
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21 16. TUGC0 requests a fuel load for 9/84. c 1 1 22 Okay. So they requested the fuel load for 9/84 before 23 i they hao this straightened out about these fire-stops.
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24 They knew there was a problem. it was an unresolved item 25 but; they had regt.ested a fuel 1s d. f .
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i AEC61ERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS -
'i P O. box 4589 . OVERLANo PARK. KS. 66204 SHAWNEE MIS $10N. KS (91.1) 2624100 KANSAS CITY, Mo. (816) 4216052 c . - -
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. i 65 1 No.*16. now 7/1/85. BISCO matrix Division a 2
continues'to reference this test PCA-dCT. for October. 3 '76. which does not -- that's the one that didn't comply 4 with IEEE-634. didn't even reference it because IEEE-b34
, 5 didn't exist yet. but they were committed to it in the SR. ;
j l i 6 before SISCO came on site. i 7
; That's coming back to me as I'm going through a this. So the deal is they commit to it in the SR.
l ! 9 IEEE-b34. After that they contract..for SISCO to come in l !
; 10 and do the fire-stops. BISCO comes on site. They send a 11 letter ar.c say everything is hunky-dory. Everytning we j 12 send you meets tte requirements, but this one test wasn't I i l } .- 13 to IEEE-b34. It ,didn't exist when they made the test. So l i -
14 they hac to ao a reetest. l
. But they already made the false
}
l j 15 statement that we meet the standards. They couldn't have ! l l lb because they didn't exist when they can the test. 17 G. Okay. l
~
! 16 l A. No. 19 8/20/85, there's ANI that's American 19 Nuclear Insurers. I think it is, letters to BISCO and 2D TUGC0. both on the same day t one to BISCO and one to l 21 TUGC0. I And what ANI is saying to BI3C0 and letting TUGC0 22 know, they're going to rescind their acceptance of that l i 23 '76 test.
,] 24 And in addition, a recent test had been failed.
25 similar test. So now there's a cuestion about a meeting O v s 7 i . . h1.
& ASSOCIATES INC
.. ~ L REGtSTEMD PR(FESSiOML REPORTERS P o. BOX 4589 . OVERLAND PARK. KS. 66204 SHAWNEE MISSloN. KS (913 2624100 KANSAS CITY. Mo. (816) 4216052
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66 1 attachec. 2 No. 20. on 8/27/85. let's see. TDDR. I think 3 that's TUGC0 Design Deviation Request or Report, and it's 4 1 numbers FF-85-Ob3. shows it's not reportable. In other J
, 5 words, they've get a test.
i They've requested fuel load. 6 and then they get this before that there was a question by 7 the NRC. and af terwards they get these letters that this a isn't -- this is a problem. this testing is a problem, and 9 ANI is rescinding it. - l 10 I think ANI said they would. but they were 11 reeting a one R rating. but they were committed to a two d l 12 rating cr three. But this TUGC0 deviation report or TDDR. 13 whatever it stancs for, indicates that it's not 14 repcrtable, but they hadn't even done their analysis yet !
! 15 when I was talkirg to them. They were still in the 16 process of. analyzing this. y 17 They've already said. ch. no there's no --
, la they're still analyzing all the SISCO reports. yet they've i
19 already said it's not reportable. They didn't know how j 20 many this affected.
; 21 i
They've already said it's not reportable. So
.{ 22 l
right there they've got a problem with -- it should have 1
- 23 been potentially reportable at least.
?
Okay. 24 So that TDDR shows it's not reportable, but on 25 the same TDDR that says it's not rPoortable they request
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& ASSOCIATES. INC j AEOSTERED PROFESSOM REPORTERS P o. box 4589 + oVERLANo PARK. KS 66204 <
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4 67 1 more information for BISCO to prove the tests were good. 2 So here they're saying it's not reportable but they don't l 3 know because they haven't got enough infccmation to prove i 4 the tests were gcod. l 5 Okay. No. 21 9/lb/85. BISC0' letter by C. W. 6 Brown to TUGC0 C. G. Craemer. that's C R A E M E R. BISCO l t
? will supply recessary information to prove they did an l 8 added test with three-eignths inch special' compound which 9 caused it to pass.
- 10 okay. Basically what they're saying is well.
11 the one we had in the wall we can't prove to you. We 12 aoded the.special cap on it. a fireproofing cap, and that i 13 passcs, but that's not what they have installed. So what 14 they have. I'd say at that point, a 5055-E condition. l i 15 They've had reports. test records they were l l lb saying needed to be rescinded. They're saying here we can l l } 17 give you this other one with this extra three-eighths inch l 18 compouno on it which will cause it to pass. t 19 'Shannon or anybody able to provide you any of l : 20 these letters from BISCO to TUGC0 back and forthf 1 , [ 21 G. No. not really, I've got a couple of memos ! i 22 from -- i
, 23 A. Okay.
24 G. -- Sharnon to various people, but he was not j ' i 25 able to give me the --
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& ASSOCIATES. INC REGS1ERED PROFESSOW. REPORTER 5 P o. Box 4589 + OVERLAND PARK. KS. 66204 SHAWNEE MISSloN. KS (913) 2624100 KANSAS CITY. Mo. (616) 4214052
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J. 68 l 1 A. No,'I'r talking about somethine frcm TUGC0 to 2 EISCO anc BISCO to TUGC0 and, ANI to both of them. to TUGC0 . 3 and Bisco. l 4 Q .' No -- l { 1 5 A. That was in that three-inch stuff that I left l I 6 with tnis chronology. 7 Q. So in your opinion there was a problemf 8 A. Okay. Ch. yeah. we're not done yet. 22. 11/7/85. THI -- that's Y -- begins a follow-up on this I 9 l'
, 10 84-24-UC4. I recuested the certifications. Then reports.
, 11 letters. matrix audited information records, etc. ' So I j 12 asked -- ckay.
t 13 Now. 22A. 11/18/65. 7. H. Young gets a call from 14 SISCO Chicago development engineer and let's see. I forgot
, 15 His name now. It's here someplace. Gary Fedor.
, Ib F E D 0 R. Okay. Questions were asked through the --
i i 17 okay. 18 I went to the SISCO site lead engineer and asked 19 him to forward scme questions to Chicago because they 20
] couldn't answer them about the fires and so forth.
El Chicago wanted to answer me directly; Okay. 22 j Now. when I asked them the questions, this Gary 23
.l i
Fedor stated the fire occurred in the summer of '7b.- He l 24
.; stated the fire has the cause of the loss or destruction j 25 of records. No way the fire could have been the cause f, [s -
; & ASSOCIATES,INC Mois1TRED PROFESSIONAL. REPopTER$
P o. Box 4589 + oVERLANo PARK KS. 66204 SHAWNEE MISSloN, KS (913) 2624100 KANSAS CITY. Mo (816) 4216052
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69 1 1 because the fire occurred three or four months or more 2 be fore the tcst cccurreo. That's the problem. 3 That's why ANI was rescinding because the test i 4 records were lost. That is, couldn't prove. That's part l 5 of the reason they're rescinding. Okay. That kind of 6 thing should have been turned up in TUGC0's audit of 7 BISCO. They didr' t get that criteria verj well. That was l 8 another problem I had. l l 9 l
}
okay. BISCO -- this Gary Fedor stated their new
', 10 vault is fireproef and answers yes to meeting ANCI N95.2.9 11 on the vault.
j 12 I 21 1/2. I must have skipped something. I fino l 13 some more stuff. I w 10/16/85. TUGC0 interof fice memo from 14 Craemer to BISCO on the site. Kennedy for BIICO. Let's . 15 see, a request of rework of all seals affected by i 16 rescinded S-26 cpproval. 4
; 17
' Basically the letter was tell me how much rework 3 18 e
you have to do on these seals that were rescinded by -- I 19 that were - when ANI said we're rescinding our approval h 20 of this S-26 test, that was the one that included the PCA 21 October '7b test. ' 4 22 Okay. ( They were to include the scope. that 23 meant like the room, the trace numbers. Two, they were to ! I 24 include the fire test and the ANI. that means the American i 25 Nuclear Insurers, approval for the rework or rework l 1 i ! ' r i , . w
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REC 31ERED PROFESSCHAL RtPORTERS i R O. BOX 4589 . ovERLANo PARK, KS. 66204 SHAWNEE MISSION, KS (913)2624100
- KANSAS CITY, MQ. (816) 4214052
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a, - ( 70 1 schedule I guess. 11y copy is bad on the edge. e The third one is the schedule when the rework 3 will be completec. i So before I went and asked them all 4 these qLestions. TUGC0 is saying they need to do rework 1 5 l and they still haven't gone back on this TDDR and say 6 maybe'it's -- they don't know. ! 7 See, they've already installed them. They've l j . 8 already asked for a fuel load. So the context is they've l ! 'I already asked for the fuel load. They've already got them 10 installed. and then they find out this problem, but yet 11 they don't call it 5055-E. I 12 All richt. 21 3/4. 10/24/85. 8ISCO memo. Trent 13 to TUGCO.
~
It locks like a K. I can't read the rest of i 14 it. No. 1. scope. Okay. This is a response to the 15 i 10/16/18 -- 10/1h/85 memo. Trent is responding. The
; 16 l
- scope is eight penetrations are af fected by that test.
! 17
( Two are removed already. One is now out of the scope. la
. something they did that switcheo out of the scope, and l'l five are left. and they're all into the control room.
j 20 They were -- it kind of reminds of this records t 21
.i' deal with the unresolved item. They'were waiting to see 22 how many they would end up pulling anyway. So maybe the 23 problem would go away by itself.
24 Now, second thing on this letter rework and 25 upgrade to matrix revision. they were revising the matrix w-r T y
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& ASSOCIATES. INC REcasTERED PROFESSOW, REPORTERS
. P o. Box 4589 . oVERLAPC PARK, KS. 66204
. SHAWNEE MSSION. KS (913) 2624100 KANSAS CITY, MO. (816) 4214052
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4 l l i 71 l that told them what test applied to what and what they 1 2 have satisfics the ANI approval and fire' test and any new 3 I raterial, then they'll put new documentation.
]
4 Third, rework schedule'latt'*. Too much work and 1 S cable pulling, etc., right now. Okay. I went back and 6 researcheo when they -- oh, this is my Nc. 4. back on No. . 7 !
- 4. They added IEEE-634 to the 1978 -- in 1978, that was i a
the first additicn of the SR or PCR or whatever. It was l 9 plenty of time. l 10 J Let's see, No. 5 there was a correction. SR 3 11 adds IEEE-634 in a general rewrite on fire protection in l
, 12 Amendment 17. Or 4/17/81 the ASTNE 119, that was the li
- - 13 other standard, was in from the original. Okay. And I I.
14 have a note here, let's see, 4/17/81 date I went in, and ,
~
15 that was prior te the contract award meeting of 3/17/82. !
,' 16 So the IEEE-b34 was in as of 4/17/81 and the contract 17 ]'
award date was fer 3/17/82, and later they're saying l t 16 everything was hunky-dory. There wasn't any problems. l 19 Now I raised a question and apparently this 20 wasn't well received, not by Shannon but by the others, 21 Westerman. Let's see. Oh, okay, asked these questions: ,
, 22 When was the firef Summer of '76.
i What records were 23 lostf i i one was a re-test for each lost record. Whai tests
! 24 have failed and what do they do when a test failsf What l 25 have they done tc the records storage facility to preclude r'h v
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& ASSOCIATES. INC REGIS1ERED MOFESSIONAl. REPORTERS P o box 4589 . OVERLANo PARK. KS. 66204 l SHAWNEE MISSloN. KS (913) 2624100 e KANSAS CITY. MQ. (816) 4214052
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i a 72 l 1 recurrence, and I checked with Bob Scott in Dallas. 2 TUGC0. Last audit in Chicago was 7/8/83.
, 3 Scope was corporate activities ano document 4 control procedures audit schedule, document transmi t tal -
t i j 5 forms. GC inspection, training records and vendor ; i 6 qualification activities, nothing about record storaga. l l' 7 They hao two fires. 4 One of the concerns I had was what other plants 9 were affected. They didn't put out -- BISCO didn't put i
; 10 out a Part 21 either. So there may have been other i
' I 11 facilities affected.
6 12 Here is that TODN FP-85-063. l It says -- okay. j 13 h
,- It's TUGC0 Nuclear Engineering Design Deficiency Report.
{
, 14 DBD-FP-2R.1. Has typical ceiling details assigned in 1
15 i, three-hour fire rated barriers that reference American i 16 huclear Insurers Acceptance S-26. That acceptance has 1 17 been rescinded by ANI. Fire testing by ANI indicated that 18 the designs were less than three-hour rated. Procedure 19 violatec 2323-MS-38F. I think that's not a procedure but l 20 the specification. i 21 Revisicn 3. Paragraph 3.5.'2.2. Oh, here is the
! 22 guy that --
Kim Anctor, that's who reported it on 8/27/85. I
! 23 Q. Who does Kim work forf 24 A. He was on contract at TUGC0.
He was their fire l 25 protection guy. He is the guy that also said that when I l l l fT% l
, 1 7
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& ASSOCIATES,INC
_. L i REG 6TERED P90FESSOdL REPORTERS P o. Box 4589 . OVERLAND PARK KS. 66204
. .i SHAWNEE MtSSloN, KS (913) 2624100 KANSAS CITY. Mo (816) 4214052 g
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[_ . . -_ _ _. . . I. .. . - .;., -- - - --- ~ 1 1 i 73 1 was up there 'sking a about this, they hadn't evaluated all
\
2 this stuff yct.' keeping that in mind that they haven't t 3 cone all the evaluations yet, they had a lot to go. TUGC0 i 1 4 nuclear engineering QA review and approval and it's i 5 Shahood (ph) or -- I can't read his name. He was middle i i 6 eastern. I don't know. He's R rated or something like 7 that. 8 8/29/85. let's see. action addressee C. G.
, 9 Craemer, oiscipline. FP. fire protection. Recommended 10 corrective or preventive action.
Now it says. 11 "Potentially repcrtab,le under 10SF-21-N10C-5055-Ef No. i 12 If yes, action taken." It doesn't apply because they say 13 no. And how they come to that conclusion when they l 14 .
! haven't done all the evaluations yet, they weren't going
$ 15 i
to be done with those evaluations until like maybe the end j lb of January or enc on F.ebruary of '86.
. 17 Corrective action. the vendor. BISCO. should 18 supply evidence cf satisfactory testing and up-to-date ANI ; 19 4
acceptances for all designs now covered by S-26. 20 i Preventive action, the vendor should provide
; 21
- evidence that the balance of the ANI*' acceptances used at 22 CPSES are current.
23 l. Implementation due date. 10/15/85, and it's I 24 l signed by Craemer as the responsible action addressee. 10 25 -
- I can't read it -- something '85. It must be 10/1/85 s
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& ASSOCIATESt INC MGETERED PROFES$0NAL REPopfERS i
R o BOX 4589 + OVERLAND PARK, KS. 66204 SHAWNEE MIS $loN, KS (9 ;3) 2624100 i KANSAS CITY. Mo. (616) 421-6052 y n e Q
74 1 and managemen't review approval. It's that same Shahood 2 Ali cr sesetbing like that 10/1/85. 3 G. Nak. what do you feel the NRC should have done 4 as a result cf TLGC0 knowing about this problem, not 5 reporting it as a 5055-E; what would be the appropriate
] 6 acticn for NRC tc taket 7 A. A violation; they didn't wri te a 5055-E. They a
didn't even -- the other thing is I look at the process of l 9 i t how in the world they can say i t is not even potentially ! 10 reportable when they haven't even d'one their evaluation so ; 11 that the specific instances were. No. 1. they didn't write 12 the one. The other is once they're process, what's their 13 ' process for writing 5055-E's, how ' can they say it's not 14 i potentially reportable when they haven't even evaluated 15 the situation at all. These things -- I mean that's
, 16 another thing.
17 They asked for fuel load. and they hadn't even 18 evaluatec the fire protection. I mean that's like. " Hey, il is the horse already out of the barnf We want to ride 20 him." It's - "See. if he's in the barn." They didn't j 21 know. There should have been a Part21 by BISCO.
, 22 The NRC should have evaluated.
I NRC should have
- ; 23 gone up to BISCO in C-hicago and looked at their fire 24 protection facilities for -- I mean their records storage 25 facilities and find out the best they could what had been Mu' 7 '"
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.. a . - L m & ASSOCIATES,INC REGISTERED PetOFES$3ONAL REPORTERS i
P o. BOX 4589 . OVERLANo PARK, KS 66204 SHAWNEE MISSION. KS (913) 2624100 KANSAS CITY. MO. (816) 4214052 _-.. n... -m .w- * .~ ~ - ~ -*~
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u._.. , _. . . . . . . .a - .. -- : * --- I-75 1 tested Lp to that point, did they have records for all the 2 tests, i. hat facilities had'been affected by these burnt 3 records, and if they didn't know, then they would have to 4 redo a lot of them, r.ot just for TUGCo. i I 5 C. The BISCO seals were not only used at Comanche b Feak, were theyf !
.i l 7 A. No. no. They're one of the biggest suppliers of '
.2 8 --
that would be likes you know, there being a problem i 't with Westinghouse main cooling pumps. i 10 C. So you're talking more of a -generic issuef I. 11 A. Definitely. That's why there should have been a 12 part 21 by BISCO when they burnt the records. They said i j .- 13 they dicn't know what all recoros wer'e lost. I don't
~
! 14 know. I can't figure out how in the world --
if you want 15 the numbers of trese -- or do you want copies of thesef i 16 ! l 3 Q. If I cculd get copies. it would be really l
, 17 great.
18 A. I can cet copies done at the newspaper tomorrow 19 I guess.
; 20 d. Yeah, and you can just mail them to me.
< Let me
,; 21 i
ask, going tc sore more general issu'es, while you were
-l 22 working as a consultant down at Comanche Peak. do you' feel 1
i
-! 23 that the Region IV management tried to steer you away from 1
j 29 quality assurance matters into more hardware-type issuest j 25 A. You knew. to look back at iti I almost think 1 [-p& ASSOCIA1F_S.INCsxn MGetERED PROFESSIONAL REPCMERS e P o. BOX 4589 . OVERLAND PARK. KS. 68204 SHAWNEE MISSION. KS (913) 2624100 KANSAS CnY. Mo. (816) 4214052
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l l 76 1 they don't understand what it means to sample. They don't l 2 understano the significance of a bad sample. You knod. 3 whether there's blinders -- if I go ou t -- and let's take 4 the thing with the cooling shroud. Maybe that wasn't a 5 real safety significant issue because of its function, out ,' b housekeepirig and cleanliness. we already know about. I 7 intergrain expressed corrosion and so forth being a 8 problem at other plants. and they've traced some of that 9 back to just simply low melting point metals and so forth. 10 deleterious material. the wrong kind of marking pens and 11 stuff like that teing used. 12 There are material problems because of
; 13 deleterious material. How do you know what's in animal
~~
14 feces and bees' rests and stuff. don't know what's been 15 dumoed in there. and when you've got dust that's. that you 16 ca. casily write in, you know. on there. Well. if that's 17 one item what other itemsf l 16 Q. Right. 19 A. And thE thing. I guess a lot of it goes back to 20 that understanding of how significant is it when you come 21 I up with a bad sarple. and they here $truggling with that. 22 You know, what de they do. i I There was a lot of argument 1 23 going on in the beginning. Well what happenst Well.
}l 24 we're going to let them go ahead with using Mill Standard j 25 105D. What happens when'they find a bad samplef I
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& ASSOCIATES,INC REGISTERED PROFESS 3ONAL REPORTERS Po box 4589 . oVERLANo PARK, KS. 68204 SHAWNEE MISSION. KS (913) 2624100 KANSAS CITY Mo. (816) 4214052 I '
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77 1 They trieo that up in Midland. I can remember 2 setting up a thirg. They insisted on'that,being done at 3 t'idland on pipe bangars, and I took a list of all the pipe 4 hangars, large bcre and then small Dore and used a random l l 5 number generator and took a sample of the right size for 1 L j 6 the total number of that size of hangars and then went out 7 and inspected attributes, and when you find like 110 out l 8 of a 12C have a problem with them --
!. 9 Then they started going through. well, yeah, but 1
i
! 10 they had all these different attributes. and I said.
11 "Well, wait a minute. I
; what we said is we were' going out !
12 3' to see.whether ar inspector had the ability to inspect." i 13 So they had started doing a song and dance. So -- the l -- i 14 i whole thing is what's the. significance of a sample. I i 15 think that's the -- j 16 d. : i As f ar as what you could observe of dealings 17 between Shanron Phillips and Region IV management. do you la feel they were trying to discourage Shannon from ' 1 19 1 . documenting violations that he discovered or you 20 discovereo and reported to hint ( j 21 A. Well. I think if WestermanOhad his way in terms 4 22 of Shannon. Shanron would have just said yes. sir, yes.
; 23 sic.. ano eliminated a lot of the problems.
A 24 G. I What type of job do you think Shannon was doing j , 25 out theref 1G FKbaLEL & ASSOCIATES. INC REGS1tRED PROFESSIOML MPORTERS
- P O. box 4589 . OVERLANo PARK. KS. 68204 SHAWNEE MISSloN. KS (913) 2624100 KANSAS CITY. Mo, (816) 4215052
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, A. I think he needed a fire suit. I think he was 2 -- I think hc was doing a good, job. think one of the 3
things that may -- I don't know whether they were trying 4 to make him look bad at that point. You know. their 5 manual says you've got to go out and inspect so many units 6 in a period, whether it's a month or whatever. If I'm 7 your boss and I want to get rid of you and if I spend 8 enough time badgering you and talking to you in the office 9 where you can't cet out and do your inspections. you're
! 10 sure not very pecductive in the. field.
l'1 Someone could come back and say later. "Well.
; 12 gee. I mean you talked with the boss about this. What dic I
,- 13 you do the rest cf the dayf" 2 "Well. yeah. but I talked
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14 with his for five. hours." and the boss would say. "Well. I 15
, signt talk with Fim a little bit." but I suppose if I 16 wanted to be nasty if I was, ycu know. that kind of 17 pe rs cri . I could sit down and talk with someone for hours f 18 t
and hours at a' time and make them rewrite reports and 1*l rewrite reports to the point that you couldn't be 20 productive, you couldn't get out and do your inspections. 21 I know it was kind a problem with the i 22 i secretary. I mean she actually turned in her notice to i 23 quit because she was using an old IBM typewriter that I i 24 hasn't cperating properly, didn't have correction and l 25 everycooy anc their brother was coming over there and. you k ,A l v'
& ASSOCIATES. INC REGIS1ERED PROFES$0eAL REPORTERS P o. box 4589 . OVERLAND PARK. KS. 66204 SHAWNEE MtSSloN. KS (913) 2624100
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79 ; 1 know, when you type a.page and you don't have a 2 correctable thing and you turn it in and you say. "Well. I 3 want three words changed in it." you have to retype the 4 shole thing. It's not like being on a word processor. 5 So eventually -- they have one for her now, but b when somebody redoes the report, you've got to review the 7 thing over again to make sure there's no mistakes. I 6 mean, you change one number and you say. I put such and 9 sucn a crawing was bad or such and such. you have to make 10 sure of the drawing numbers and revisions and so forth. 11 So I mean I'd say he was because of the way 12 e things were managed, he was -~'and not just him -- people 13 were pushed into spending less time in the field than they 14 coulc have. Maybe that's part of the reason they rewrote 15 some of mine. I already found so many things as it was lb that the less I has out in the field. the better. . 17 It's, see. it was really kind of disconcerting la to me tc be down there and think, well. here these guys. - - . . - { 1 81 want to go find cut what's wrong with the place and get it 20 all straightened out and then find out later, well. that's ; 21 not really what we want to do. -
* ~
l 22 j I think one of the things is people better , ! 23 realize that. yo t, know. just because you work for*
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the NRC.
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24 doesn't make you perfect .t i t h e r , and somebody..iq.your . 7- . . .
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- KANSAS C:TY. Mo. (816) 4216052 -
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e 60 1 it might have'been three years ago. That doesn't give you 2 the right now to gloss it over. It needs to come to the 3 surface. 4 I don't know if people were concerned about t 5 getting sued or what, but you know. that is. I guess the 6 way I lock at this, is we've got unresolved items like 7 this when they should have been violations. 6 You're going to get people that' want any excuse i 9 in the world to stop a nuclear plant from be'ng i built. It 10 may and up in the end being technically ekay, but you're 11 going to have a Pard time proving it to people like that
;. 12 I
' when Lhey say hqre is a nontechnical issue and you just 13 said who cares arc you oldn't do anything about it. You 14
. were looking out for the utility instead of looking out 15 for the people which is your job.
h So, yot, know. I think that's something that -- 17 Q. Other than the instances that you provided l i la earlier where you tried to report your concerns to I I 19 Westerman and he was not excited about getting them, were 20 there any others that you tried to report to himf i t We ! 21 discussed the PAC and -- ' 22 A. The whatt
; 23 G. We discussed -- l 1
2 24 A. Oh, PAC. l' i
! 25 G. PAC. yeah. !
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l l 81 1 1 A. Oka9 PAC. and there was the deal with BISCO.
, 2 'G. Right. And the recordsf 3 A. The records. but that. you know. the records
. 4 involvec several items all together. The housekeeping and 5
I cleanliness, the thing about the shroud, they just wanted 1 6 1 to shove that aside. ano the thing with stopping the gap. l i 7 the seismic gap, between the two buildings. When they a said. "ke'll take care of it later." I thought I wonder 1 9 how. It wasn't the civil problem I was concerned about. 10 It was the ability of the inspectors to take care of what ! 11 they were doing. follow procedures and so forth, write ! i 12 down what they fcund. 13 G. Okay. t l 14 A.
! Here is this test on PCA -- this is the BISCO.
; 15 October. '76. PCA. ANI Acceptance No. 5-26. It says IEEE lb riot considered. So I mean it's real obvious that it !
i 17 wasn't. They didn't say it passed. Well, that's what's
; 18 crazy. Their letter says later that we meet all the i
19 conditions but right here they just plain and simple say 20 it wasn't even censidered. 21 Q. You're going to give me a copy of all of those l 22 cocumentsf ! I j 23 A. Ye'ah. You didn't get a .copyf t ! ! ! 24 d. No hub-uh.
'i 25 A. Here is how I wrote it up.
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l J l I l 4 62 1 : G. Oka9 i l 2 (Whereupon. a discussion was held off 3 the recoro.) l 4 A. Okay. .Let me see. Probably one thing that t
'i 5 comes out is this first thing. all these certificates of 1
b compliance showing catches in question are Dow Corning
; 7 DC3-6548. BISCO calls that SF-20. See Dow Corning may
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have supplied that to somebody other than Bisco as well. I j
. 9 I don' t know. I asked them about how they audited Dow
( 10 l I Corning. anc that's something that the NRC really ought to 11 look at. how Bisco or some other supplier which probably 12 would use sore Dew Corning material, how well they audited
.- 13 like Dow Corning or whatever as the supplier. Okay.
i v z 14 That BISCO seal design matrix shows that Bisco l
- 15 SF-20, which is that Dow Corning stuff, being used in lb several different configurations. So that -- they each 17 have the respective tests.
. Oh. let's see all these 16 I
tests. this October. '7b, test along with other original I 19 data was presumec lost in a fire in the summer of '76. 20 4 This was not and I put in, quotes. discovered j 21 i, under American Nbclear Insurers. ANI rescinded their 22 Acceptance S-2b. It wasn't TUGCo. It wasn't' BISCO. It i-23 l was the insurer. and in the one sense they said. "We don't-
} 24 care." As f ar as the insurance concern was, it would J 25 probably be set. but they weren't meeting their SR I !
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63 1 commitment. There was confusion uith the on-site 2 personnel abcut the reason the second' test that ANI had 3 reques ted f ailed. 4 l , okay. Those fires destroyed records were ths
, 5 tasis for test reports. They're still using the test i
! 6 reports.
i 7 Oh, I think I mentioned this. that the last 6 audit of BISCO in Chicago was July. '83. They're supposed 9 to audit ther every year. That's a violation just in 10 itself. their auciting criteria. 11 Oh. tnis is another thing NRC needs to look at 12 industrywide. Ncthing in ASTr!-119 or IEEE-634 precludes i 13 retesting until a good test occces on the same i
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l 14 configuration. You can have a configuration and test it 15 l over anc over again until it passes. It may have failed 16 four times, passes the fifth time, then it passes you can i 17 use it. la d. Is that rightf 19 A. There's nothing to preclude them from reusing 20 it. 21 d.
- That makes no sense at all".
22 A. Well, it reminds me of some other. I've talked l 23 1 with pecple that have said they've run tests on pumps or
! 24 sometning like that, and I asked the guy, "What if it just 25 went outside the curve it was supposed to bef" They said G _311 R
& ASSOCIATES INC REGr$1ERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTTRS P o. BOX 4589 . oVERLANo PAAK. KS. 6C204 SHAWNEE MGSloN. KS (913) 2824100 KANSAS C:TY. MQ. (816) 4216052
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84 1 they would do a re-test, and I said. "That's interesting.. 2 What do, you co if it just makes it insidef .Do you do a 3 re-testf" And they said no. 4 d. That's not a good test.
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? 5 A.
4 Nn . that goes back to that quality engineering 6 thing, what it means'to do a good test, what your limits ( .t 7 are, your test peints and so forth. 6 i Okay. .The commitment on the BISCO stuff'was-9
- 5.1.5.3 to the SR.
I should have.a copy of that in-10 .here. Ch. I thirk you'll see on some of these 11 j certificates of compliance that BISCO used some of this l . 12 with Palo Verde plant. BISCO used these certificates of a 13 compliance with the Palo Verde plant-too. So that's at 4 .. 19 least one other job possibly affected. l 15 Q. Have we discussed with you today the significant lb items of concern that you have with Region IV's management 4 17 at Comanche Peak, have we missed anyt i la A. Yeah.
, There's one thing that I think that's --
19 I don' t think it's just limited to Region IV. That's this ' t
! 20 ' bit of protectior. of individuals that want to oring forth i i
, 21 information or bring up a problem, I don't care whether <
{ 22 they're working for the NRC or for the utility.
^l 23 I was real concerned since -- particularly as I' 24 knew these two, a couple of friends that came to me on the 25 site that the NRC needs to address an individual up front i
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85 1 with a cuestion of do they want to be protected.'and I think that nceds to be done. 2 3 I've understood that kesterman has called me a 4 troublemaker, anc that's related to bringing up all.these I. i 5 issues to Shannor in front of his wife and apparently he . b said something tc Johnson in Region IV and -- because i ? Jonnson came back and was talking and'said something to 8 Shannon. "But nok that we've got rid of the troublemaker." 1 9 and he said. "What." and he mentioned my name, and on -- 10 see I was called about two weeks ago by this same company-11 that I worked for the NRC down in Texas for to go do -- 12 help do an investigation of the NRC and TVA and Franklin
.- 13 Research Institute, the relationship between NRC. TVA and 14 Franklin Research Institute. and it was similar to what 15 happenec there, 16 They called me like on a Wednesday and they 17 said, "Will you be able to be there on Mondayf" We'll la call you back Friday if it's Monday or Tuesday kind of 19 thing. It was delayed, said now there's two positions to l 20 decide from. I.can do either one. It was QA and another i
21 one anc then I got called back, and they said now they're 22 goiag to do it with their own people. I don't know that I J 23 believe that. 24 G. Okay. q 25 A. Basically what you've got is a situation where [3 l { U I l u.a~ ,,
& ASSOCIATES. INC.
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someone is dcing the job they were hired to do. and then 2 when they do it. they get pushed out of being able to do 3 the work. 4
!1y concern is I talked to some other utilities 1
5 t that hao some positions open, showed a real interest at : 6 first. They saw the resume and all that stuff, and the 7 first contact they woulo have made would have been with i 8 the NRC and then all of a sudden we're not interested. 9 G. Okay. 10 A. So I definitely get the impression that somebody 11 is trying to remcVe me from the nuclear industry. l 12 l
- d. Is there anything else that you wo'uld like to l l
13 add that we haver't already discussed? 1 I , 14 A. Just if ttiere's some way I can help. I'd be glad 15 to and just like I said to Asselstine when he called me i lb ! and asked for some information. I told him. I said. you 17 know. I had at ore point considered, especially when I was 18 down there trying to get into something like that, what is 5 19 it. ASC5 fellowship -- or no, the ASCS fellowship and
! 20 doing some more work with the NRC. but at this ooint, you i 21 i, know. I would have done that contract there about the j 22 Franklin, but I wouldn't recommend anybody that I knew i 23 that wanted to de a good job to go do some work for the 24 ARC.
i I mean it just. I wouldn't see them in the same l 25 spot. i i
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En \ l l Pcemanent Contacts c/o Parents, s I l EDUCATION AND TRAINING (other than professional seminars) I B.S. - Engineering Physics (some M.S.I.E. work), University of Pittsburgh - 76 Application of Major Electrical Equipment - Gilbert / Commonwealth, 78 Industrial Instrumentation - Saginaw Valley State College, 81 l l Walding - Jackson Community College, 78 l E.I.T./P.E. Review - Clemson University, 84 5 Christian counseling ) AWS Welding Inspection Course, 82 courses, 75-80 ASME III - ASME-Chicago / Fox Valley, 83 Westinghouse NDE, 74-76 ASME XI - ASME-Chicago / Fox Valley, 83 Liquid penetrant Managing for Quality Control - ASQC, 75 Ultrasonic Testing Management for Professionals - Westinghouse, 75 Dimensional Metrology N:w Engineer Development (planning, scheduling, cost, Radiography - various, 74-78 safety, labor relations) - Du Pont, 84 Speechcraft - Toastmasters, 76 Form Design and Management - Westinghouse, 75 Supplier QA/QC - Ford Motor, 79 Audit Team Leader Training Program - Consumers Power, 81 Time Systems - LTS, 85 l Auditor Training - Bechtel, 81 Auditing for ANSI-N4S.2.23 - Gilbert / Commonwealth, 78 D; sign and Procurement QA - Consumers Power, 81 l Electrician, Pipefitter, & M111 wright classes - Daniel International Corp., 80 l Manufacturing Problem Solving - Dr. Hansraj Bajaria/ASQC - Palmetto Section - 8S l Clearances: DOE D0D Languages: Latin, Spanish, Greek, Hebrew Memberships / Certifications: AWS member and Certified Welding Inspector #83010061 by exam; ASQC Sr. Member and Certified Quality Erigineer #8449 by exams ANS National member; Certifiable to ANSI-N45.2.6 Leve,1 III and N45.2.23. i
SUMMARY
Experience from basic materials production and testing through component manufacturing and testing, procurement, design, construction, spare parts to modification r.nd outages of operating facilities and regulation of construction. Over eleven years of Quality Assurance / Control, Reliability, Testing, Regulation r.nd related Design experience with increasing responsibilities, plus over three other years of business and document related experience. Also, over nine years part-time additional teaching, counseling, and l organizational / administrative experience. Functional responsibilities include quality requirement assessment; quality systems development, implementation, analysis, audits , and revision; quality progtams, procedures, manuals, instructions,. forms, checklists, and inspection plans writing, review, and revision; drawing and specification review; setting _of standards; review of nonconformances; material review board; provide corrective action;
. train inspectors and engineers; perform tests, over-inspection, statistical studies and l
r: search; cu'stomer liaison; resolve technical problems; respond to government personnel; 10 d/ perform audits and surveillance of manufacturing systems, construction, suppliers, and design; teach / assist in CQE review. Worked with raw materials, chemicals, plat gics, besic metals, rolling, coating, lubrication, processing, fabrication, heat treating, essembly, welding, brazing, casting, machining, testing, installation, components /assemblics, and related spare parts in compliance with ASTM, ASME, ANSI, ANS, ASQC, WASH, RDT, API, SAE, ACI, AWS, IEEE, NEC, NFPA SMACNA, AISC, SSPC, OSHA, 10CFR, 29CFR, NUREGs, NRC-Reg / Safety Guides, DOE, FSARs, PSARs, NavShips, Military, EPA, State, and other codes, standards, laws, l regulations, and specifications. Other business experience has included marketing / sales, establishing suppliers, pricing, and proofreading. l L___._____
Thomas Holton Young Page 2 WORK EXPERIENCE 8/85 through 11/85: Action Systems-Client: U.S. N.R.C. Region IV-Task Group at Commanche Peak-PWR under construction-Recovery program.
Title:
Quality Assurance Engineer / consultant
- Duties: Assess utility third party action plans and actions for ASME material traceability, on site fabrication, housekeeping / cleanliness, and fuel pool liner documentation against SSERs and their commitments; additionally work with NRC resident to followup, close-out, and write new citations on civil / structural, mechanical / piping, electrical, fire protection and documentation / record's items.
2/84 to 8/85: Pittsburgh Testing Laboratory - Client: E.I. du Pont de Nemours at the U.S. Department of Energy Savannah River Plant - Modifications and outages of material.s reactors, separations, laboratory, manufacturing, and waste storage facilities; construction of fuels manufacturing, waste processing (vitrification), waste storage, and special material laboratory facilities.
Title:
Quality Assurance Engineer Duties: Participate in assessment of projects (criteria include radioactive material release, nonradioactive hazardous gas release, unexpected cost, loss of production, criticality, process hazards and others). For "Q" assessed projects, write QA PIans providing require-ments to crafts, inspection, test, engineers, and others for actions and records. (Including-l architectural / civil plans and mechanical / electrical / piping / instrumentation plans). Projects l assessed non "Q", recommend a QC Plan, inspection by request, or general monitoring based on ; complexity, extent and cost. For Lump sum subcontracts, write / recommend extent of sub- ; contractor QA program or PTL inspection / monitoring. Supporting work included review of ' uaste processing (architectural, civil, electrical, instrumentation, mechanical, piping, and strucural) specifications for verifiability, understandability, reasonableness, adherence to codes, effect on procedures, and M&TE requirements;. review Du Pont coating, painting, l and piping site specifications 'for the same requirements; review project drawings, non- 1 4 conformance reports, procedures and changes, and inspection methods; develop forms, checklists and flowcharts; perform general construction / inspection surveillance. Report monthly to Du Pont upper management the progress of QA planning and work on up to 35 "Q" projects. Interview and train new QA engineers. Recommend site quality program improvements. 4/82 to 7/83: U.S. Testing - Client: Illinois Power-Construction of Nuclear Power Plant-BWR at Clinton, IL - Recovery Program
Title:
Area QA Supervisor Duties: U.S.T.: Administrative supervision of quality engineers, level III & II inspectors, QC program developers, and document reviewers. Responsible for addressing client needs for personnel; acceptance / rejection of personnel submitted by home office for work on site; t ime and expense vouchers. Client: restart of work program including write instructions for IP Supervisor of Welding, NDE and Testing; review IP QA procedures, instructions, and training manual; write progress reports and update schedules for overinspection efforts; review electrical, mechanical, structural nonconformance reports; audit A/E engineering; surveil electrical design; review of constructors' procedures, review operations procedures, surveillance procedures (SP), maintenance work requests (MWR), condition reports, provide inspection points on SPs and MWRs; construction surveillance; other duties as assigned. 8/81 to 3/82: Aero Detroit - Client Consumers Power Co., - Construction of Nuclear Power Cogeneration Plant-PkA at Midland, MI.
Title:
QA Engineer Specialist ' Duties: Review instrument tubing specification and inspection plan; write checklist for audit of preoperational testing procedures and their implementation; review calibration lab and M&TE calibration procedures; review mechanical components / spare parts Corrective Action Reports; determine deportability of nonconforming items to 10CFR 50.55(e) or 21; perform hanger / support overinspections and review related drawings / soft-ware; audit prime contractor's performance and procedures to codes and FSAR; review mechanical / structural receipt inspection packages for system turnover.
Thomas Holton Young Page 3 WORK EXPERIENCE (continued) 4/81 to 6/81: Piping Design Services - Client: Gulf-States Utilities - Construction of Nuclear Power Plant-BWR at River Bend Project.
Title:
QA Consultant - Duties: Review documentation systems (and related training) for drawings / changes and deficiencies / risk for adequacy; audit fuel /NSSS components vendor to 10 CFR 50 Appendix B. 10/80 to 4/81: Lehigh Design - Client: Washington Public Power Supply System - Construction of Nuclear Power Plant-BWR for WPPSS #2 Project', Hanford, WA - Recovery Program.
Title:
Systems Turnover Engineer Duties: Reverification for Restart of Construction Task Force functions: Evaluate safety-related HVAC, instrumentation, and instrument piping deficiencies of all types - Nonconformance Reports, Corrective Action Requests, NRC findings and concerns, 50.55(e)s and part 21s, audit findings, and inspection reports for proper disposition, adequacy, completion, impact on restart of work; provide a trend analysis on type of deficiency and causes; provide recommendations for management systems improvements; procedure review; estcblish checklist for audit / auditor evaluation and qualification of auditors. In addi-tion, set up final review of documentation for containment liner (vessel) and associated piping for completeness and adequacy. 6/80 to 10/80: Kansas Gas and Electric - Construction of Nuclear Power Plant-PWR-SNUPPS at Wolf Creek Generating Station
Title:
QA Engineer III Duties: Audit constructor; assess / provide corrective action for systematic drawing problems; perform surveillance on welding, special concrete testing machine evaluation, concrete tensioning cable forms and cleanliness; procedure review; supplier surveillance; design jig for measurements on concrete test machine; evaluate special hardware concerns on components and spares. 4/79 to 5/80: Sabbatical to teach, counsel, establish businesses at a ministry, and then go to school. l 1/79 to 4/79: Douglas Division of Scott and Fetzer - Mechanicoi, Llectro/ Mech., Electrical Parts for Vehicles - OEM at Bronson, MI.
Title:
QC Manager i Duties: Manage QC department of two supervisors and about fifteen inspectors; procure m aj or equipment; assess customer problems, contact and provide corrective actions; assess , systems and paperwork and upgrade; deal with problem vendors. l 1/78 to 12/78: Gilbert / Commonwealth Companies - A/E Firm - Erie Nuclear Project, NSP-SNUPPS, J.H. Campbell, at Jackson, MI.
Title:
Quality Engineer Duties: Review and evaluation of specifications, vendor proposals, procure, ment documents and activities; evaluating Vendor QA qualifications / manuals; audits of internal design and procurement functions; and vendor surveillance. Assignments mainly nuclear and some fossil.
- 6/77 to 10/77: Walworth Company - Nuclear and Speciality Valves at Greensburg, PA l
Title:
Nuclear and Speciality QA Engineer - Duties: Witness hydro tests; perform welding surveillance; evaluate and provide ccirrective design for testing and related equipment; evaluate heat numbering system control and pro- i vide corrective actions; prepare revisions to QA manual; review customer specifications; train dimensional inspectors.
Thomas Holton Young Page 4 WORK EXPERIENCE (continued) 1/77 to 3/77: Goulds Pumps - Nuclear Power Plant Pumps at Seneca Falls, NY
Title:
Nuclear QA Engineer Duties: Review, correct, revise company standard specifications <and drawings; provide . l inspection requirements to receiving inspection; address customer problems; review and I comment on customer specifications for quality requirements; direct nuclear QA in absence i of manager; witness hydto tests. i 8/74 to 3/76: Westinghouse ElectroMechanical Div. - Nuclear Pumps, Canned Motor Pumps, Valves, CRDMs at Cheswick, PA
Title:
Assoc. Nuclear QA Engineer Duties: Design and/or modify computer systems to create an integrated information system for material review, audits, welder qualifications, procurement, industrial engineering, administration, and QA (this was a Westinghouse first accomplished after several others had failed, and this system produced plant-wide acceptance with major backlog reductions); provide instructions for and direct selected work of engineering assistants and clerks; QA material review board representative; review drawings and specifications; prepare and/or revise instruction, procedures, QA manuals, overinspect for MRB; design jig; surveillance ; of performance tests; lead auditor and auditor on major monthly systems, manufacturing, and l followup audits and mini audits. j 1/74 to 6/74: Pittsburgh-Des Moines Steel - ASME Tanks and Vessels, Bridges, Towers, Other Structures at Neville Island, PA
Title:
QA Supervisor Trainee Duties: Provide receiving inspection requirements to inspectors; set up receiving inspec-l tion standards and traceability system; review drawings for welding and NDE requirements; ! develop and read radiographs. I i 1970 to 1974: Various companies in Pittsburgh, PA - Engineering Testing and Research - I Plastics, Coatings, Metals, Meters, Valves, Ceramics, Lubricants, ,etc. ' Duties: Perform mechanical tests on valves, meters, bearings, and other devices; test plastics, chemicals, ceramics, powdered metals, coatings, metals, weldments, lubricants; material feasibility studies; size control study and equipment design; set quality standards; compound and produce lubricants, sealants in pilot plant. Please respect the confidentiality of this personal information. If you desire to forward i T!;is resume outside of your organization, please obtain prior permission from me. l The facts stated in this resume are true and complete.
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