ML20238A033
| ML20238A033 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Comanche Peak  |
| Issue date: | 07/09/1986 |
| From: | NRC OFFICE OF INSPECTION & ENFORCEMENT (IE REGION IV) |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20237F760 | List:
|
| References | |
| NUDOCS 8708200348 | |
| Download: ML20238A033 (35) | |
Text
. .
l q
l l
i
- " 11 h
I
\'
t l I
$NORN STATEMENT OF Q. *i. ;: . . ]
l July 9, 1986 !
2:55 p.m., CDT .
4 -
i 'i
- l r
. I LOCATION: NRC Region IV *
- Arlington,. Texas .
TAKEN BY George Mulley -
)
1
- 1 1
h e
I l l 9708200348 870819 gDR ADOCK 05000445 PDR TATE REPORTING SERVICE, (713) 222-7177
" * ' * " - - - * ' * " ' " " * ~ " - - - - - - - " -
.__._i_-____"*TL_-__
_ ___ 'L__'-__.A
_ _ '* J""
. o' .
. 2 i
3
_)
. u .
2 was call.ed as a wi'tness and, having been first duly j 3 cautioned and sworn, testified upon his cath as follows:
4 EXAMINATION h
5 By Mr. Nulleys
- 6 Q The time is 2:55 p.m. and th's date is the 9th of 9 7 July, 1986. We are at the headquarters of Region IV, the ,
\- \
8 Nuclear Regulatory Commission in Arlington, Texas. Pre'sent 9 is1 . .j .' '. ,Jff.,. ; .gwho's N a R'egion IV employee; myself,
.k s 10 George Nully, I'm the Assistant to the Director for 11 Investigations,.0ffice of Inspector and Auditor, NRC; Steve I
12
\ .
Goldberg who is a technical advisor to CIA from 155, and k , ,
13 the court reporter,7 Nr. Pat Tate..
14 Noareheardtodaytodiscusswithf7;.>.h 15 information.heLaay have concerning Region IV's management
- s- .. . . . .. 1 '..- -
16 .of the Comanche.5 .
Peak power. plant.
17 .
,. [C]beforewestart,couldyoubriefly 18 provide us with your background?
19 A Yes, I as a Naval' Academy graduate, class of
~
g 20 1955. Prior to that, I had three years - two years of l t
21 pre-law and one quarter in law school at Emory University. 1 i
~
22 f I served in the U.S. Navy after graduation-for !
23 four years. I then was employed by Ingalls ship Building -
{ 24 in Pascagoula, Mississippi, for 21 years. I began my 25 employment as a start-up test engineer, I was in systems l
6
- - ~ ~ ~
,, ~ TATE REPORTING SERVICE,'(713) 222-7177
3 1 engineering for fluid systems; was an assistant section 2 chief of the fluid section.
3 Then I was in quality assurance for five years as 4 a manager. Subsequent to that, I was a director of nuclear 5 material for four years. Then I added to my empire ~ nuclear 6 material.overhall planning and nuclear material production 7 control.
8 In '77, they moved those functions out from under 9 me and gave me nuclear material engineering.
10 In 1980 with the incipient end of the submarine 11 at Ingalls, I applied to the NRC and after the freeze was 12 up, I came with the commission 8 September '80.
. l I 13 q There was an interim in there prior to employment j 14 with the commission when I didn't know I was going to have j j 15 a job, that I was with Bechtel; one of my previous bosses 16 who was a QA manager at Bechtel, Ann Arbor, asked for me to 17 come and work for them and if I hadn't got a job with the i
18 NRC, I probably would have had to stay there. Fortunately 19 I didn't.
20 Q So you've been wuth Region IV since September, 21 1980?
4 22 A September the 8t'h, uh-huh. /
23 Q What is your position with the Region right now?
j 24 A I am a. Region based inspector.
25 Q Okay. And what aress do you inspect?
, TATE REPORTING SERVICE, (713) 222-7177
- , . . ,.~ ,_. _ .. _ _ _ _ , _ . _ _ _ _ _ _ ___ _
4 1 A Everything. Literally.
2 Q What sit'es do you perform inspections at?
3 A All Region IV sites.- I have primarily inspected 4 operations. I did not want to inspect construction when I 5
came with the Commission because I had been-in it for too 6 long. I didn't want to get involved in that. I did spend 7 some time in South Texas from January;of 1982 through 8 January of '84, during the transition there, in'the area'of 9 QA and material. ,
\
l 10 Q Have you conducted any inspections out at f
11 Comanche Peak?
12 A I was on site twice at Comanche Peak and I'm a I 13 little bit fuzzy. It was in, if I remember correctly, in 14 the spring of '82, ostensibly I was looking into Brown 6 15 Root vendor control problems that I had discovered at South 1 16 Texas. And I wanted to see if they had the same problems ]
l 17 at Comanche Peak, if it were a generic problem, and it was.
18 (By Mr. Goldberg)
Q Did you see similar problems l 19 between South Texas and Comanche Peak?
20 A In the area -- yes, because the same vendor group 21 that did South Texas also did Comanche Peak. And 22 incidentally, there was a 50.55(e) at South Texas, there 1.
23 was never one apparently at Comanche Peak.
24
{ The reason was supposed to have been that at-25 - Comanche Peak, they did a different scope' but the same
,. TATE REPORTING SERVICE, (713)-222-7177
., . 5 1 names appeared on the vendor reports. I was looking into 2 some vendor proble'ms there. As I say, ultimately trying to 3 see the scope of their 50.55(e) and close it out, which I 4 never did.
5 Q Just one last question. Do you recall wh'at the ,
6 equipment in question was?
7 A I really didn't care. I was looking at vendors 8 and types. But I think they did ASME.
9 Q ASME7 -
10 A Which they didn't do at -- don't know whether 1
11 they did it at South Texas or not. But they were, ifI 12 remember correctly, there was some ASME. l
,.. l t 13 But I was looking at basically bolting material, l 14 so I really didn't care. It was not germane what area it ,
. I 15 was, whether, the same problems there.
16 I think I made two brief trips down there and I 17 have not been back, nor have I volunteered.
18 Q While conducting inspections at the various 19 plants of Region IV, have you ever been as'ted to stay away i
20 from quality assurance items and pretty much concentrate on 21 hardware issues? q 22 A Answering you literally and in the context of has 23 anyone ever spoken those words to me, I can't say yes, you 1
f 24 know. I, when I. find something, I look at whatever needs 25 to be looked at. ,
q TATE REPORTING SERVICE, (713) 222-7177
.*i-4. ar yc - e , f .r g a-f e ses : Ass > tere t n m > n e.$ -=S h w' M A i a
ewM ' am e m.m>+ a. e ! _~ % e-s=-+sem+-
- m +a mn e *=e m o -- *- e .*f -- w -
6 1 Q Let me try to ask the question-slightly 2- differently and maybe the answer might be different.
3 Do you detect in Region IV management more of an 4
. interest to look at hardware as opposed to look at QA type 5 issues?
6 A I would say if there were a prioritization of 7
importance, operational -- immediate operational safety 8 concerns are higher - .have a higher priority. And of 9 course to some degree,-that's significant.
10 Q okay.
11 A Many people come from a pure operational 12 background.- And you have to have that, you have to be able 13 to look at a piece of hardware and know what that does in 14 order to put it in perspective. But conversely, you have-
! 15 to understand the generic implications of that.
i And gee, i
L 16 if it's here, is it somewhere else.
17 Q (By Mr. Mulley) But there's been no overt g l
18 attitude by the Region just to, you know, kind of let QA be l i
19 off by itself and, you know, we're just going to 20 concentrate on hardware; there's no prevalent' attitude in 21 the Region that you know of?
- I 22 A I don't -- well, of course, I'm off by myself as 23 a QA person, so I'm not quite sure what you mean by off by f 24 itself.
s 25 Q Well -- dr
~ ~~'
__g-
,. TATE. REPORTING SERVICE, (713) 222-7177
_====,==--m==-_=====mn -- - ,- - = ~: - - ---
7 1 A 'That's --
2 Q To the point where we're not really interested in 3
documenting QA violations, we're going to lessen the impact
! 4 of a QA finding, let's try to work the QA issue out with 5 the licensee?
6 A No, I have never had that. But I don't think 7 anyone would ever suggest that to me, because it would have 8
,. had -- you know, remember, I'm coming from a very strong QA 9
background and I doubt if there's anyone in the Region who
'10 would want to challenge me on QA. , It would be interesting 11 if they did. But I don't think they would.
12 Q Do you know if any other inspectors in the Region A, 13 . have had problems involving QA7 14
- A No, but I'm not a person who goes around.
15 socializing. I bring back enough work to keep me busy, you 4
16 know.
(
- I either try to have something to do productively in
! 17 the office. And I get procedures from licensees and I 18 either review them as part of that or I lay them aside and j
19 then they're available for me to look at prior to another 20 inspection.
21 In other words, I try to maxiinize Region' based 22 time as meaningful inspection time, because I don't want to 23 waste days on site gathering documents if I can help it, if j 24
{ I can get them either the time before or something, I try 25 q:
look at them in the office so I hit the site knowing what TATE REPORTING SERVICE; (713) 222-7177
8 1 my problems are.
2- I would'say we'probably waste a day or two on 3 each inspection if you don't'do that.
And there's a real 4 potential there for gaining meaningful inspection time on 5 sites if we had that as a policy.
6 Q (By Mr. Goldberg) You think you're somewhat 7 different than most inspectort in that regard?- You tend to 8 be more preparing.yourself right here in the Region?
9 A- Well, I think that a d, also. remember, I have'a 10 lot more management experience.and programmatic knowledge ;
11 of how things should work as a licensee, not.just from the 12 Navy perspective but Litton was probably more difficult to )
13 live with than the Navy was because when you worked for a 14 company that wants a 25 percent return annually on capital 15 investment, the management controls that they have in place j l
16 to assure that they get that are much more sophisticated 17 than the Navy required. {
18 And for instance, I see licensees when I look at 19 their trend analysis, most commercial trend analyses are 20 developed by middle management to convince. upper management l-21 that everything is all right. j 22 At Litton'all trending was develope'd by upper l 23 management to prove that middle management was lying to 24 them. So it's a different perspective, and I look for
{
25 that. You'll see that in this report that I just wrote up TATE. REPORTING SERVICE, (713).222-7177 ,
- ....- - ..,- -.- , ,.. .,., ,...: .~ . . . , . - , _. __
9 1
on Forth St. Vrain when I looked at their trend analysis. .
2 You know," most of them are just pretty pictures 1
3 for a dog and pony show.
, But yes, I think I am, I've had 4
considerably more background in QA and in management 5 systems than the average inspector.
6 Q (By Mr. Mulley) ~Are you aware of any problems 7 that inspectors have had in Region IV with management, 8
concerning management trying to, you know, downgrade 9
, violations,. lessen the impact of inspection findings?-
10 A If you mean someone has something that is a level 11 three that management says may.be.a level four or !
'12 something, yeah, and that's a hard one to call. i And, you , !
l '
13 know, the criteria are not so prescriptive th.at there isn't I 14 a, you know, something in that, yeah. l 15 Q What about where somebody has a violation and the i
16 Region decides to call it an unresolved item or to delete 1
17 the violation completely from the inspection report. ,
18 A I've never known of one deleted. I would not get 19 up -- and as far as saying, " Hey, you do not have adequate I
20 information for a violation, we want you to go back and 21 look again."
22 That per se is not necessarily invalid. I'd have 23 to look at the specific examples to say, hey, yeah, that
[ 24 was a something or other.
25 Now, if you find a situation.were a violation was
,, TATE REPORTING SERVICE, (713) :2-7177 t_____ "I.*lIIU_21. l__'_*TN '- ~
YI
- E-
- -
- 717--- *f ' u -* _YI " NT #'2 N ' 3
- "D""*MN""'T'7* - - *FT#P* -'*'#N'* 'f' * ' ##-- "
10 1 downgraded to an open item, was proven that it was valid, 2 was signed off as'an open item and never upgraded to a 3 violation again, I 'would have a heartburn with that, but' 4 I've never had that experience.
5 Q (By Mr. Goldberg) Going back to the. issue that 6 George raises having to do with something that'isn't quite 7
all there and becomes an unresolved item in terms of more 8 information is required based on the inspection manual.
- 9. A Then if it gets s,ign'ed off as an unr.esolved item 10 though it was a problem, I would have a heartburn with 11 that, yeah.
12 Q That's what we' re t alkireg about.
Where a problem l I 13 {
is sitting there, needs corrective action and gets signed !
14 off as an unresolved item and the licensee doesn't know 15 what the agency action is going to be on that issue, where l I
16 timely corrective action is necessary.
17 A Yeah, I don't know. That could happen, I'm .
18 not --
19 Q But you personally would have a problem if that 20 was taken off --
l 21 A Yeah.
22 0 -- off as a violation and put as an unresolved 23 item?
24 A 4 And then never made a violation if it.were one, 25 yeah. .
a
. . n. .. _ -.
~n TATE REPORTING SERVI cF:, (713) 222-7177
. 11' -
'l Q Yes.
2 A And agai'n, you have to realize and may I digress, 3 you can either have me re' peat it or not. But for instance, 4 I am tomorrow -- because I can't ever get it done in the 5 office and I coul'd do it on my word processor at home -- I 6 am reviewing the new QA training for the NRC and we don't 7 really train people in QA.
8 So here you've got an inspector who's going out 9 cold; he has very little understanding of what he's -
i 10 supposed to do. I've had residents call me cn1 QA matters 11 and I'm happy to and I encourage that, but here you've got 12 a guy-out there, our site representative who may not be i 13 really knowledgeable of it. He may have come from an 14 operating Navy reactor and he may be the greatest control l
15 room guy in the world. But he doesn't understand quality 16 implications when he sees it. And I wouldn't say that was I
( 17 limited to Region IV. And so it's - .some of these things f i 1 18 are hard to call.
19 Q (By Mr. Mulley) What about the resident 20 inspector out at Comanche Peak, Shannon Phillips. How
~
21 would you assess his QA7 22 A I came in behind Shannon during'the transition.
23 I inspected at South Texas. And whenever I go on a site 24 for the the first time, I go back to day one and read all
(
~~ '
25 of the inspection reports, a very, very emotionally ,
~
~
TATE REPORTING SERVICE, (713) 222-7177
12 1
. unrewa'rding but necessary thing to do but you have to put 2
that site in perspective, you can't just pick up and run 3 wi,th it. '
4 Now, I have not done that with Wolf Creek, that's 5 one I have not. I did in '73 but I don't remember what it . .
s 6 said. Arid I haven't upgraded it since then.
7 -
But I looked at all of the things that at on, 4
because one of my concerns is that in the transition that 9
we would'1.et something. fall through the crack. And.I found 10 that shannon's reports and what I saw of his perspective 11 wasverynaturefromahalityassurancepointofview.
)
12
- I would say that he is one of the,more nature Ok ,
13 peo'ple in the Region. And that's probably because he came -
14 from the vendor branch, if I'm not mistaken, and they have I 15 a better perspective of On than any - other than my'self,
~
il you know, of any Region based inspectors. They understand 17 Appendia a because that was their bread and butter.
18 And whether it's Shannon or one of the other
- 19. guys,ff ,d , e a another good one, he has a good 04 !
20 perspective.
i !
21 0 (By Mr. Goldberg) 1
' ~
What about the.section chiefs 22 and branch chiefs, the people like Eric Johnson who's a 23 division director now, I keep thinking he's a branch chief, 24 I knew his as a branch chief.
25 A c well, he came straight out of the Navy. There's.
94b@ e'O9 .,"--"-'%@O#NW w= - - -- = - -
- ^
13 1 no way in the world he could have have a OA perspective.
2 You've got to be -- frankly you've got to be in the 3 trenches -- and I think if you'll look at my record, I 4 probably get more level fours than anybody else,-because, 5 what'I do is go back and'1ook at the problems that'I had, 6 and everybody has the same problem.
7 So if you've got a person who's never known what 8 it is to be on the other side of'the fence, then it's 9 difficult for him to have the ' perspective, not only that it 10 may be difficult to put a finding in perspective because he 11 has not seen what can happen. .
12 The reason that we went out of the submarine l l
l l
13 business in addition to emotional conflict with the Navy, l
l 14 but the prime reason the let us go was that we downgraded l 15 our QA to the point where we were absolutely unacceptable 16 because our corporation apparently did not want a strong QA i
17 manager. When this manager who was fairly strong went to '
18 Bechtel in '73, they replaced him with a series of people.
19 And every time they got smart enough to realize what the 20 problems were, they either transferred out or they removed 21 them.
22 So I've seen'what can' happen and I see the signs i 23 of a deficient QA organization; it will literally destroy a
! jl 24 corporation or a function.
l 25 Q (By Mr. Mulley) Have you ever had any occasion 7 .
TATE REPORTING' SERVICE, (713) 222-7177
._-._m.,_- ,, . . _ , _ _ . - - - _ . _ _ -. _ . - -- - . _-
14 1 to deal with QA issues with' Tom Westerman?
2 A I guesc'I have, not recently. But Tom was 3 section chief when I first came here, and he -- at that 4 time, we were organized differently, operations was its own 5 thing. And if I may digress, I like tha't a lot bet'ter.
6 But -- and I had findings at some of his sites and I never 7 had a problem,.you know.
8 Q With Tom?
9 A But again, remember,'I'm coming from a stronger 10 position than most people are.
11 Q Right.
i i
12 A And I can give examples and whatever that says, I i
13 " Hey, 'this is a problem and here's the type of thing that 14 can happen," and generally that helps put it in a
1 15 perspective, if you have a person who doesn't have the 1' 6 background automatically do it.
17 Q How would you describe the Region IV's inspection 18 policy?
19 A Give me the document to which you are referring 20 to.
21 Q Inspection attitude, you know, how -- what they 1 22 feel they should be doing for_the licensees, what they feel l
23 their inspection program should accomplish?
l J 24 A Other than what's in the manual, I don't know if 25 I've ever had anything verbalized to me. I know what I'm I
. ,. TATE REPORTING SERVICC, (713) 222-7177 w === , - - - - .- - --
15 1 out there to do.
2 Q Bas the" Region ever taken the position of trying 3
to assist the licensee to get their license,.you know, try 4 to hand 1'e things informally?
5 A I have no firsthand knowledge of that. '
.,c 6 Q (By Mr. Goldberg) --
7 Q '(Sy Mr. Nulley) Do you'have second hand 8 knowledge of 'that?
9 A r don't know.
10 Q (ByMr.Gbidberg) You mentioned your manual.
11 Let se ask a follow p question to George's question. When 12 you close out an ins ection procedure, do you close it out l t 13 only after you've talien the line ,iten)of r' requirements and 14 have completed those requirements or do you do it some 15 other way?
16 A l If 2 just did the module, I would never find 17 anything. e it okay. h Q But I'm asking it differently. You're 19 right. You are right in that sense. But at a minisua, as 20 a minimum, do you take the requirements section and know in 21 your own mind that you've gone through all the 22 requirements?
23- A Yeah, basically.
But ,2 look at it more
{ 24 programmatically.than that, really.
25 0 okay. c
,, TATE REPORTING stRvr0R, (713)222-71i7 '
16 1 A In other words, if I'm going to do a module, I 2 envelope that, but I know what a maintenance program should j 3 be. ,
And I look at'what a maintenance program should be. I 4 know what a QA program should be, I know what a material 5 control program should be. So I envelope the minimum 6 requirements to have one that is acceptable. And in that l
7 yes, I pick up the line items.
l 8 Q (By Mr. Goldberg) Let me ask a question a 9 different way. Do you take cr'dit e for other inspectors in l 10 thinking that they covered --
11 A No.
12 Q some parts of that -- of those requirements --
13 A I never had that as a problem.
14 -
0 Okay. The point of it is, when items get closed 15 out, you know, in the data base, the 766 data base, do you 16 in your own mind feel that you, yourself, have completed 17 that procedure, that procedure --
18 A Whenn my 766 -- yes, uh-huh.
19 0 It's not 80 percent complete, 50 percent t
20 complete?
i 21 A No. Now I've closed some out at 80 percent {
22 simply becaura I didn't think it was worth it to go back 23 and do ar.ything else and spend a trip, but I will look at 24 that the next time.
{ i
- ql 25 Q But you won't call it a hundred percent complete
, TATE REPORTING SERVICE, (713) 222-7177 ,
.p
-g ,
,' .- 5, '
i c
.~ u 3. -
, 17
- ) ..\ -
.t
- s. - 1, when you did only accident 50 percent of.the work? .. .,
g e
- u. - ,
, s t 2, A No. No. '
i .,, 1
. a 3
- ~
Qi You alko wouldn't close it out;if you did.11t' 50 ,n
,e >
- s. .
t > q
~
5, j 4 peicint and you think sea,a htidy else did it for-.50 percent.;
a, l'-
.- 5 of the time,'you wodid use it based on what you're s i-
- i. N 6 particular participation in that-procedure is?
s q
l 1 7m A Yes. N i I , % ,
l-L N ~
8 Q Therefore goiny back to first question so I can
, ,- s l
' 9.
understanditalittlebihbet'tei,I x x think what you're f
. s . -
i t'aying'is, you take the piacedure as a guide'because of 10-s 11 your expert knowledge of the area?
12
A Yeah.
o .
3 .
2-
- 13 However, you feel co*nf[ dent that those line items j Q .
. .s 14 requirements tNat set the e, live, six, seven, have been !l 3
l 15 completed in ond way 'or another --
l -
16 A Yeah'. .
, N-
.. .s . .A j 17 o- -- by yourselff '
! 3 18 XS That's right. And far more than that. I would
- s. .
19 1
love to be able to rewrite i:hti smodules, I really would. -
I 3 .
- j. 20 ' think that it's a lot to eG>ect a person coming out of the !
21 Navy, fcc- instance, to understar.d what he's really supposed !
4 1 s 22 to be doing-and I think that's part of the overall problem.
23 You know, we never train an inspector to inspect. We presume he knows.how to do'it; 4
24 -
s 3
25 (By Mr. Mulley)
Q. Are you familiar with the form h
, t -
TATE REPORTING SERVICE, (713) 2267177 .
m l:
u.---..-.,,r_..- 3,.
J - - - - - , - - - - - bm n= - < "R -
18 9
1 7667 * '
2' lA Ch, yes.'
~
3
.Q When'you prepare an. inspection report, do you l~ 4 fill out the 766 forms?
! 5 A Yes, and I hold it until the entire repor't is 6 ' signed off.
~
7 Q Why is that?
1 l
8 A Huh?- Because I want to see the report before I I~ 9 give them the 766.
, t 10 Q If,on-the 766, you were going to put down a 11 certain inspection procedure as having done work, you know, 12 having work complete cut that procedure during that report, l i
13 would you also in the report dncument some place the work t 14 that was done on that procedure?
)
15 A I don't know -- you mean -- I don't know that I J 16 would -- no, I would -- no, huh-uh; you mean, I did step #
17 one, two, three, four, five; no.
18 No.
Q For example if you were working on reactor 19 ,
internals and there's a certain inspection procedure that 20' requires you look at the reactor internals, and you want to 21 give credit for doing 50 percent of that procedure in 22' inspection report 80-17, could I go back to your report 23 80-17 and see something in there to indicate that you did
! 24 some work on inspection reactor internals?-
25 .
A Well, but I don't do those,. .I do programmatic.
TATE REPORTING SERVICE, (713) 222-7177 h_rrrr r rrrr n~-- - " r -~ ~ "r"" "~"- '
~:
a '
19-l' Q Okay.
l 2 A And its' a little different. I see what.you're
- 3 saying. And it's-hard for me to answer because I've never j '4 done those step by step ones'like that,'that much. But 5 possibly not. If I did the whole thing and didn't'have a l
l 6 finding, I would probably do that. But if I didn't do the i
7 whole thing, I would say what I didn't do. You see what 8 I'm saying?
9 Q (By Mr. Mulley) I k'now with the 766, you know, 10 there input it into the computer and there's an, inspection !
11 report number given next to the work completed, and I would 1
12 assume that I should be able to go back to.that inspection 13 report that somebody, you know -- there should be a 14 paragraph that refers --
15 A ch yeah, okay, there will be a paragraph that 16 says mechanical maintenance or maintenance program 17 implementation, yeah, uh-huh. But I it won't say section i l
18 two --
19 Q No. No -- e 20 A Section --
21 Q It might in the scope --
22 A It might be -- there will be a separate paragraph 23 for each module, yes.
24
{ Q (By Mr. Goldberg) In other words, irrespective of whether you had a finding or an observation, if you did
~
~
25 r.
..s :
l
, TATE REPORTING SERVICM, (713) 222-7177
- __,...__..,.._.,._.....,..,.2.,..,,. ..
. . , , , ..,,,,,._r.... . _ . . _
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ .__ ___1_____
, 20 1 work in that area and you took credit for it in the 766, 2 you would probably' find a paragraph in your report?
. 3 A You should find a paragraph.
4 Q You should find a paragraph.
5 Q (By Mr. Mulley) And just to repeat something you 6 said a couple of minutes ago, it is not improper to close 7 out an inspection procedure after having done only maybe 40 8 or 70 percent?
A 9 or 80 percent.
10 Q As long as you accurately reflects you've only 11 done 80 percent?
12 A That's right.
2
{
' 1 13 Q But you don't feel it's proper to close it out 14 only if completed 70 or 80 percent but reflect'you've done 15 a hundred percent?
16 A No, that's why you have the percent column in 17 there. In fact, I didn't realize you could do that for a I 18 while, but I have no heartburn as long as you reflect that,
, 19 " Hey, we did 80 percent and we closed it out."
20 Q Let's say you were going to use in closing out or ,
i l 21 doing some work on an inspection procedure work done by (
22 somebody else. Maybe another inspector has inspected 23 various line items and that maybe his inspection findings 2 24 can be also applied to the procedure you're working on.
25 A If -- I understand what you're saying. If I had TATE REPORTING SERVICE, (713-) 222-7177
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ . _ , - - - _ - . - . - - . = , . . . - . . - . .. - -
21 1 that type'of thing and I could look in another inspection
~
2 report and in a paragraph I could define that he had looked 3 at that, such as paragraph line one or paragraph -- or "I 4 looked at these internals" or whatever, yeah, I would take 5 credit for it. But if I couldn't define to the point.where 6 I could justify in a court of law that I had knowledge that 7 he had done it, .I would never include it.
8 Q Would you have this, in --
9 A To digress, I antici'pate that I would take any 10 inspection report I ever had, I e er wrote, to court, I 11 prepare it like that. Because these are legal documents <i 12 and we should all do that. -
l 4
13 Q so would you have it documented some place the 14 rationale that you used? For example, if you're going to i 15 close out an inspection procedure or you're going to credit 16 an inspection procedure for being 50 percent complete, i 17 based on other inspections done- by somebody else, is there !
I 18 some place that I could find out?
19 A Not now because we're required to throw 20 everything away. But until then, you could have. )
21 Q (By Mr. Goldberg) I don't understand what you 6 22 just said. You are say'ng i you're required --
23 A- Yeah. Once we finish a report, all'the
{ 24 background data we're to throw away now.
25 Q Who has required you to do that? I
,. TATE REPORTING SERVICE, (713) 222-7177
_-._.,, _ . . e _ _ . _, - , . . ~ . _ . _ . . _ _ _ _ ~.
l- .
.* 22 1 A That's, that.was -- I thought it was,an NRC -
2 policy. We do it here, yeah.
3 Q (By Mr. Goldberg) Okay.
, 4 A Now, there are a few things.that I haven't. But l
j 5 I mean, you know, open items, for instance.if I have a 6 violation and I'm going have to close out.that violation at 7 a later time, until I've got a satisfactory closure on it, 8 I will hold my background data so I can review to be sure,
-9 because it may take six months'or a' year or two years.
10 so I'll hold that that i still open to the extent 11 that we haven't closed the entire issue. But yeah, isn't 12 there something NRC-wide? And it1really is a sticky. thing I I 13 to me, because I still got Navy stuff going back to the '
l 14 '50s, that I keep because they pro.ve certain facts.
And I i 15 think we're making a mistake, Commission-wise, I'think 16 we've over reacted to Freedom of Information, because I 17 think there's certain things that we should retain because !
l 18 we do have legal records and have to defend those under 19 certain circumstances.
20 Q (By Mr. Mulley) Going back briefly to the 766 21 forms, have you had any problems considering accuracy of. -i 22 the information en these forms, whereas you've had --
23 A I don't understand. Yeah, I've messed up'a
- 24 couple of times.,
25 Q Have you ever had 'to go -- "
TATE REPORTING SERVICE, (713) 222-71hh
~
= = = _ = = = = r_u__: r_ r = m-__::ar_ = 1_u m =r- ~ - -- - --
231 1 A- There's a. block I forget to fill in that's 2 supposed'to have'a^one in it.-
3 Q- Have you ever had occasion to have to go into-the 4 system to pull out, for example,-out of Comanche Peak, pull' 5 out the 766- data on to a computer printout, and take a look 6 at the work that's been done and found out that this stuff 7 is inaccurate?
8 A Huh-uh, I would never-have any reason to do that.
9 Q (By Mr. Goldberg) Has there been an occasion 10 where the supervision has changed your input to 7667-11 A Not to my knowledge.
12 Q In other words, if you say something is 40 l 1
4 13 percent complete, they're not going to necessarily make it l
14 a hundred percent complete after they've received the l 15 inspection report?
{
l -
l i
16 A To my knowledge, nothing like that has ever 17 happened. But neither have I -- I wouldn't see-why it !
l 18 would. But I've never gone back.and checked the 766.
l 19 Q (By Mr. Mulley) Have you ever had any occasion
,. 20 to overhear or to witnets or to hear about confrontations l
21 between Westerman and some of the inspectors out at [
22 Comanche Peak?
(
23 A I've heard that there were concerns about things.
{ 24 .But frankly, as I said in the beginning, every time 25 somebedy mentions Comanche Peak, I stick my fingers in my '"
, TATE REPORTING 5ERVICE,'(713) 222-7177- .
l_ -. , ..,_.s,_,.,,,,,._._.__._s,..m-,_ m,2, , , .
24 .
1 ears and run like heck for the farthest corner. I don't 2 want to.know thing' about it. And I've purposely avoided 3 knowing.
- 4 -
Yes, I've heard rumbles and things. But I don't 5 oven try to remember enough'to be able to do it. I know 6 there were some, there were -- there was some report that t 7 was supposed to have been highly emotional about something.
\
8 But I preferred not to know the details and to forget, 9 frankly. '
\
10 And for one thing, a little knowledge is a 1 l
, 11 dangerous thing. But I've had no interest in.it and I've
\
12 got a more than enough to worry about on my own sites.
\
13 There was - and I'll tell you that, list's see, I 14 was trying to think - there was a problem sometime back i 15 thatf;.;,,[ZZ. a and x
.4.. ,f )
,-)and. - they we.re
[
16 involved in, there was some inspection report or.something.
17 And that's about all I resember. And you probably know !
i 18 more about it than I do.
19 But there was supposed to have been a concern
[
i 20 there and I didn't really get into it. Those are the only 21 two names I remember. j 22 0 Did you have any knowledge of anybody in the.
23 Region IV changing the findings'of inspectors or changins 24 inspection reports without the inspectors knowing about it?
25 A No, I was trying to - no, again, I try to avoid ~
~~ . _ _ _ . . . . _ . __
- -i-TATS preomTING samvicr., (713) 222-7111
- - . . ....~,..i...,._.---
, ,., . . , . -.. . _ _ . . -~
25 1 gossip and chit-chat. But no, I would probably be the last 2 to know.
3 Q Do you feel that you've been given the freed 6m 4 then as an inspector to go out and do your job, report your 5 findings and have your findings published as you see fit?
6 A Basically, yes. For whatever reason, I was 7 terminated on inspecting South Texas in January of '84 and l 8 have not gone back and have not closed out any of th'ose 9 things. But other than that,'not that I mind --
10 Q What type of things were you looking at out at 11 South Texas?
12 A Anchor bolt problems, material control problems, 13 imbed problems, that type of thing.
l 14 -
Q So you were finding problems at South Texas? i l
15 A Yes. And they're documented in my reports. Very !
16 voluminously.
17 Q (By Mr. Go.ldberg) And what happened; can you 18 give us little background?
l 19 A All I know is that they had a program to go over 20 all of these things and I have had no time and I told 21 management, " Hey, you know, it will take me a month or so i, 22 just to get back up to speed."
23 And I don't know whether all of the findings were j 24 addressed. Probably the most significant ones are some of 25 the anchor bolt material things and one that is, the most ~
,. TATE PFPonTING SERVICC, (713) 222-7177
....,_.n...- ... m.-.,.- . . . - - -w. 2.- ~ ~ ~ - -
26 significant is probably the imbed -- potential imbed
, 1 2 material mix up; b'ecause they lost control, that was a 3 finding in investigation down there in '79, I didn't find 4 that that's ever been addressed. I don't know how that 5 would ever even be resolved. But that's th.e only thing.
6 Q Let me ask two questions. One, how come this was 7 not picked up earlier in earlier inspections at South 8 Texas, that this type of material traceability lapse, and 9 second of all, why wouldn't management.want to keep you 10 involved because of your expertise .in this area?
11 A I don't know. You're asking a question I don't, i
}
12 know. I tell you why it wasn't found.
Because very few Ii 13 people have the background that.I do And I really wasn't 14 interested in going to South Texas because I told 15 Gagliardo, if I go through, I'll find things nobody would l
16 be happy with, at this stage of the game particularly. '
17 And basically, I found it because I went in and !
I 18 the first time I was on site, I asked a Brown & Root l
19 material control person, "Where is your material control 20 program;" and it turned out that they had none. So that 21 raised a concern with me about what are the implications. I 22 They had a 50.55(e) on mixup of certain bolting material 23 and then I just expanded it to look into other things that
- 24 if you had in it that area what other problems could you 25 have. .
I
,. TATE RR5'nRTING SERVICE, (713) 222-7177
. _ . . .. _ . .. - . - -- _.- - .-- - ~ - . - -
gy 1 Q (By Mr. Goldberg) You raised the material 2 control, you said 'the material control program did not 1
{
3 exist when you asked the question. Well, material control I 4 issue is something that's picked up in the 25.12 program as 5 you know.
6 A We really are weak on that. We do not address 1
7 it, per se. '
8 0 Well, yes and no. I don't know what the j
9 procedure was in the '70s. Btit the key it is, with all due l 10 respect to your expertise and I respect it very highly, it l 11 seems to me that if a proper inspection was done in South 12 Texas earlier, just based on what you are saying, a proper i
13 being someone with equal expertise as you have, may have 14 picked this up earlier.
15 A okay, let me tell you specifically how I got into 16 it. I asked the person, I said, and I go back now not, to 17 Navy nuclear, but our president that came with Ingalls the 18 year I came there, came from McGraw Construction Company, 19 who built the Paduka and Richmond facility. So when Mel 20 came there, he brought his management team in and they 21 compared their way of doing business and management systems l
{
l 22 with ours and found they were very compatible interestingly
! {
! 23 enough. And I haven't found that same level of 4
24 sophistication in any construction site.
I 25 But one of the things that is inherent in this l
TATE REPORTING SERVICE, (713) 222-7177
, , . . . . . , . . . ~ , -s
- g a++a.--r.*- *
- ?- - - ~^ ^
28 1 type of project is that when you make drawings, you have a 2 material take off,' and engineering does part of it as a 3 steel bill and ma'terial people do part of it, and you 4 consolidate line items _at a point in time, based on 5 schedule, you order and then you have. releases as more of 6 the material. There was none of this at South Texas.
7 Apparently the first time that material was 8 identified under Brown & Root is when the craft supervisor 9 came up to say,."I'd like some steel."
10 Now, well, that raises a concern -- they 11 obviously ordered certain things that they ordered for 12 every project. But this puts you under the pressure of l
'I 13 being late and therefore you have a tendency to compromise 14 vendor area and receipt inspection and everything else.
. (
15 So based on that disability and based on my 16 background, I started looking, okay, for that potential i
17 what happened down there. And that's how I got into it.
&I 18 But anyone who had not been in construction under 19 control conditions would not even know that this was a ,
20 parameter that should be considered, do you see what I'm
(
21 saying? And tell me a module that leads you to that.
22 O I think it can happen. Maybe I have the 1
l 23 standards that you have. As a module writer, I think there 1
) f 24 are standard things that one could look at. But rather 25 getting into that in detail --
TATE HCPORTING SERVIcc, (713) 222-7177 1
. . . . . . .. . . . _ . , _ . . . _ _ _ _ _ . _ _ _ . - - - _ _ . , _ m
29 1 A You see what I'm saying.
2 Q I unders'tand that you have this specific 3 expertise in this and it may be easier for you to pick this 4 up, but I tend to feel based on what you are describing f 5 that any construction site quite apart being a nuclear site 6 would want to have a good material control program would 7 want to have good lead times, would not want to compromise 8 vendors, all those good things.
9 A If they even know th'at that's a factor in.
10 construction.
11 Q Well, it should be a factor in any construction 12 project.
I I 13 A I'm not arguing the point. I'm just arguing that 14 I haven't seen that. 1 1
i 15 Q The question is that we are into, let me just 16 jump into it, is that you had an issue that you were 17 running with in 1980 and I'm still wondering --
18 A January of '84.
19 Q -
'84, and I'm wondering why you were terminated 20 from that project, that's really the issue.
21 A I assure you I don't mind never going to Bay City 4 22 again.
. 23 Q What reason did they give you?
24 A Nothin.g, I just went on the Waterford project.
(
25 0 Who terminated you from the project? ' '
,. TATE REPORTING SERVICP., (713) 222-7177
____.._._.___ _ 2_ .- -
, .' 30-1 *A I don't know specifically who's decision it was.
2 O And as a' result, the things that you'were 3 pursuing.-- .
l 4 A I have not looked at and I have not been privy to i 5 their closure. SomeonepresentedmewithsomethinkinMay 6 wanting me to concur but it had no substance in the closure 7 and I said, " Hey, I can't do it."
8 Q (By Mr. Mulley) Do you feel that a practice that i
9 you just outlined, has happened before in the Region where 10 you've had inspectors --
11 A I don't know. I can only give you my --
l
{ 12 Q (By Mr. Goldberg) I think as a suggestion for 13 us, I don't think it's of immediate need but sometime maybe 14 in the future, we'd like to see your inspection reports .
15 that you wrote in that time frame in this area, if'we 16 could.
! 17 A Suru.
f 18 Q I think it would be of some interest to us.
19 A They're about this high.
20 Q I said "some." ,
21 A You have to look at all of them. They can't be h
l 22 split apart. They're evolutionary.
i 23 See, one of the things I did in that. case, thread i
g 24 forms were one of the concerns I had with site fabricated 25 anchor bolts. I don't.try to make determinations based on 9
l
. TATE REPORTING SERVICE., (713) 222-7177
- +7p svwm =* s~oewesvt wwwe**;%e*' ~w ? *:w';
'y 7+^ #~ **~*[w'~~** *
- I
_ _ -_l.'---l.Li---~-
l 31 t
I i
1 my expertise even if I don't feel comfortable. I went to 2 the person who headed the thread design committee for the 3 United States from 1948*through the '70s; I just happened 4 to be able to get to him, who is a -- hand book'H-28, are 5 you familiar with that?
l 6 Q Yes.
7 A The site had never heard of it, neither had 8 Bechtel. But anyway he' was the man who owned H-28 from its 9 inception in '48 until he retired. And, you-know, when it 10 comes into a question of statistical sampling, I find out 11 the guy who owns mill standrad 105 and say, "H,ey, this is a 12 valid application of mill standard 105."
13 I don't make that determination myself; I attempt
(
14 to find the highest level of expertise that I can acquire.
1.
15 Q (By Mr. Mulley) Is a resolution to a problem l 16 that you just described, where you go to the expert who may 17 be outside the NRC, do you feel that that's a suitable way 18 to go to solve a problem?
19 A Yeah, because he is, he's the Bible, you know, I 20 can't obligate us to funds but as long as he does it for a 21 freebee and he is the person who knows more about it than d l 22 anyone else.
I 23 Q So if you have a resident inspector who --
l 24 a I don't know whether that makes people happy or l 25 not. .
l .. TATE REPORTING SERVICE, (713) 222-7177 t . _ _ _ . _ . . _ _ . , .,_..._._.._m,m.. .. ., ._ ,
32
. l' Q' If you have a res'ident inspector and sorrebody 2 .from the management disputing the interpretation of a code 3 or --
4 A I go to.ASME, too. I've been a member since '65.
S Q So you feel'it would be an' appropriate avenue to 6 get this resolved would be to go to ASME people and ask 7 them, "What did you mean-when you wrote this?"
8 A Sure.
9 Q Is that done in the' Region?
l 10 A I' don't think anybody does it but me. But you 11 know, to me, we're looking for reality, we're looking for 12 reactor safety. And if the person who makes a 13 determination on what's good or bad happens not to be in 14 the NRC, does that mean we don't find out the truth? You 15 know. And that may have gotten me in' trouble, you know. I 16 don't know.
17 But I've got -- to me, truth is the ultimate goal '
) 18 in our profession. We can't afford anything else than 19 knowing what is right when it comes.to reactor safety. No, 20 I've got and I've gone to fastener manufacturers, you know, 21 the head of their metallurgical department at Bethleham 22 Steel to find out questions abo'ut thelr bolting and it '
23 turned out that yeah, the fasteners down there were not
[ 24 nuclear grade.
25 Q (By Mr. Goldberg) I have one last question going . ~
TATE NORTING SERVICr:, (713)'222-7177
... _ :.- ..,_. _ 4.._. ._. _.a.,_.x,... m ,; ., . _ _ . . . _ _ . - ~ -
~
. 33 1
back to your Bechtel, not Bechtel, but Brown & Root' 2
experience, were pou personally unhappy when you were told 3 to go off and do another project?
4 A .
I don't care. Literally to the extent that -- I 5
like to wrap everything up,'okay? I have enough of a sense '
6 of tidy. But I presume that it's going to be closed out ,
1 7
and I understood that I would be able to be satisfied that 8 \
it was\' closed out. '
.9 Now that, in general, that is not something that 10 l always - there have been items closed out that' maybe the 3 I
11 guy who found them did'not bless the closure. And don't 12
\
know that anything says you have to. I don't.know f any ;
13 policy or requirement for that.
- 14
- Q (By Mr. Nulley)
- If you have had atdi sgreement s
15 over certain ites with management, have they ever.just f
finally just changed it and'-
16 .
f.
17 A No.
18 I (Discussion off the record.) #
19 0 (Mr. Null'ey) I have nothing more to add.
I 20 Q (By Mr. Goldbstg) Ask if he wants to add j 21 anything for the record.
22 -
f Did you want to add anything? . l i
23 A Other than I think, again, I think that they
24 realised with my background that might'not, they might not j 25 want to challenge it, you know.
f
=
l mar:.=U Tarn p ronT,Iwo samvice, (713) 222-7177 -
t 35 1
2 THE STATE OF TEXAS:
3 COUNTY OF HARRIS:
4 5 I, R. Patrick Tate, Texas CSR #1730 and Notary Public 6 in and for the State of Texas at large, do hereby certify 7 that the facts as stated by me in the caption hereto are '
8 true; that the above and foregoing answers of the witness i
9 to the Interrogatories as indicated were made before me by
~ 10 the said witness after being first duly cautioned and sworn 11 to testify the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the l
12 truth, and the same were thereafter reduced to typewriting k 13 by'me or under my direction and supervision.
14 -
I further certify that the above and foregoing 15 sworn statement, as set forth in typewriting is a full, l
)
16 true and correct transcript of the proceedings had at the 17 time of taking of said sworn statement and that I am 18 neither counsel for nor employed by any party hereto. I 19 In testimony whereof, witness my hand, this 10th ;
20 day of July, 1986.
j 21 22
/
23 Hy Business address is:
1712 Esperson Buildings
- hN (
/R. Pat' rick Tate, CSR #1730 '*
{ 24 Houston, Texas.77002 Notary Public in 'and for My current certification the State of Texas J 25 expires: 12-31-86 My Commission Expires: 06-27-89 !
- d TATE REPORTING SERVICE, (713) 222-7177 .
_._.~.....-.....-._-,_._.m...._..__ -
_ __ _ _ _ _