ML20238A124
| ML20238A124 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Comanche Peak  |
| Issue date: | 07/09/1986 |
| From: | NRC OFFICE OF INSPECTION & ENFORCEMENT (IE REGION IV) |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20237F760 | List:
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| References | |
| NUDOCS 8708200378 | |
| Download: ML20238A124 (32) | |
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1 SW p ,STATEMENJ OF July'9,198h 1:54 p.m.~, CDT .
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LOCATION: NRC Region IV '
Arlington, Texas TAKEN BY: George Mulley - l I
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2 called as a witness, having been first duly cautiched and 3 sworn, testified upon his oath as follows:
4 EXAMINATION 5 By Mr. Nulley: '
l 6 Q The time is 1:54 p.m. and the date is the 9th of -
4 7 July, 1986. We are at the headquarters of Region IV NRC in 8 Arlington, Texas. Present is who is a 9 Region IV employee; syself, George Mulley, Assistant ,
10 Director for Investigations, Office of Inspector and 11 Audito'r, NR'C; and a court reporter, Mr. Pat Tate.
12 We'reheretodaytodiscusswith( t 13 information that he has concer'ning Region IV management of 14 the Comanche Peak Power Plant.
15 ( before we start, could you briefly
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16 provide for us a synopsis of your background? '
17 A I've been in the nuclear power industry i 18 approximately 23 years, the last three of which I've been l 19 working for the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. Prior to l
20 that, I worked for architect engineer Burns & Rowe of New 21 Jersey for ten and-a-half years. I worked for a utility q 22 company, Wisconsin Public Service for a year and-a-half; I l
23 was in charge of their training procedures on the Kuwanee l 2 24 Plant.
( 25 I' worked for a facility -- o.r a' company at the ~
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1 Hanford Facility, which is now Department of Energy, )
2 Douglas United Nuclear for five years, and operation of l
3 production reactors. And I worked app'roximately two l 4 and-a-half years for Westinghouse Electric Corporation in l
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5 their Navy prototype program.
6 MR. MULLEY: Before we continue, I'd like to ,{
i 7 state that I forgot to introduce Mr. Goldberg,.Mr. Steve 8 Goldberg who is a technical' advisor from I&E who's here on
! 9 detail with OIA, he's been with OIA for the last year or so
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10 helping us out with technical matters. Mr. Goldberg is )
11 also present for this interview. - -
- 9 12 Q (By Mr.*Mulley) . how long have you i ,
13 > been.with Region IV? !
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A June lith, 1984, I reported in as resident 15 inspector on the Wolf Creek Nuclear Plant.
16 Q What is your present position?
17 A I'm project inspector, assigned to the Waterford i 18 station.
l l 19 Q As a project inspector, do you have occasion to i
20 review inspection reports, findings that, you know, 21 inspectors prepare? Do they come through you for review?
22 A Usually only the ones for the Waterford plant and 23 occasionally the South Texas Plant, because those plants
[ 24 are in the section that is supervised by the chief who I 25 reportto,{ ) ,
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4 1 Q. Do you actually do inspections?
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2 A Yes. I
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3 Q Very frequently?
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4 A Yeah, I usually do some inspection, about once a 5 month, or more frequently. Sometimes not that often, 6 depending on what administrative load I have at any '9 7 particular month, i .
8 Q When you reviewed inspection reports and 9 conducted your own inspection ^s, have you ever encountered 10 any pressure on the part of Region IV upper management to 11 handle issues informally rather than documenting'them in 12 the inspection report as violations? '
13 A No. .
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Q Okay.- Have you ever perceived an attitude in the 15 Region to try to handle issues with the licensees in an 16 informal manner instead of documenting things in inspection 17 reports?
18 A No.
19 Q Have you been involved at all with the Comanche 20 Peak Project?
21 A I made inspections for a period of approximately 22 four weeks during the summer of 1985. I guess I'd have to 23 add, I don't know as I was formally assigned to do that, it i 24 was just a temporary project which I volunteered to do.
25 Q As a result of your inspections, did you identify ~
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1 any deficiencies, nonconforming items, violations, anything 2 like that, that required a report to be prepared?
3 A I provided input to a report. I found no 4 violations. I had some observations but I found no 5 violations.
6 Q what was the number of the report that you '
7 provided input to, do you recall?
8 A I'm not sure, but I think it was 85-06 and 07.
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9 Q (By Mr. Goldberg) What area were you inspec, ting, 10 sir?
11 A Primary systems piping.
l 12 Q (By Mr. Mulley) Who did this report get reported 13 to once the in'spectors were done with the report?
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A I turned my input over to Shannon Phillips who 15 was the senior resident' inspector construction on the site.
! 16 And at that time for that report, I believe the draft went 17 to Doyle Hunnicutt, who was the chief at that time. And to j I
18 my knowledge, it would would have been passed on to -- I's 19 not sure where it went from.there. It ended up with j q t 20 (_,_ ,,
, I'm quite sure of that.
j 21 Were you aware of any problems encountered as a Q
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22 result of review of this report as it passed up through the 23 various levels of review?
f 24 A I was aware of problems with the report, but I (
25 don't believe it was that particular report. I think it [~
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6' I was a report prior to that one.-
2 Q Do you recall the number of that report?
3 A I was -- no, I don't recall the number.
4 Q (By Mr. Goldberg) Do you recall what the problem l
5 was?
6 A only hearsay. I was told by one of the 7 inspectors involved that he apparently observed what he' l 8 thought was violations and -- and one of the management 9 people asked him to change th's report and he iefused to do. l 10 it.
11 Q (By Mr. Mulley) Do you recall the name of the ..
1 12 inspector who discussed this with you? )
4 13 A.
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Q And do you recall the name of the management i 15 official?
j 16 A As I recall, it was Tom Westerman.
17 Q Do you have any information as far as the nature 18 of the finding what was in dispute?
19 'A 5e never went into detail with me ou it.
20 Q whatwas( reaction to this whole 21 instance?
22 .A He was upset. 'I'd guess his main objection was 23 that he was asked to change the report and then he informed
( 24 se that he didn't agree with changing it and he told 25 management if they wanted to change it, to make th~e change
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2 Q Are you aware if management gave [ t ,, jany 3 reason for wanting to change the r.epo'rt?
4 A No, I'm not aware of the specific reasons. I 5 sort of gathered they felt his observations weren't i 6 significant enough to warrant writing a violation. .
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7 Q- Andapparently(( -
felt they were significant 8 enough? !
1 9 A Yeah, apparently he' disagreed with their 10 assessment.
e m 11 ,Q Why did , j, discuss this with you?
l 12 A Wo.were working together when I was down at 13 Comanche Peak for that sort period of time. And in fact, 14 we were working on the same inspection procedure.
15 Q Did he intend to take any action as a result of 16 this or was he just resigned to the fact that the report 17 was going to be changed? $
i 18 A Be didn't express an intent to take any actions 19 to me.
20 Q You worked with Shannon Phillips then for at 21 least a month at Comanche Peak?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Bow would you assess, based on what you know of 24 him, his performance as an inspector?
25 A Be seemed competent as a construction inspector '~
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8 1 to me. He seemed quite outspoken and he seemed intent on 2 doing the job which he felt he was assigned to do.
3 Q Did you feel he was acting within the proper 4 limits of doing his job? By that I mean, you know, not 5 going overboard and trying to, you know, dig up violations
- 6. or, you know, going into areas where really the NRC had no 7 business going into?
8 A I would say he was acting within the limits of 9 his responsibility. .He seemed somewhat critical of the 10 management direction he was receiving at the time. j 11 Q What sort of statements did he make to make you 12 believe he was not happy or he was critical of the
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13 directions? -
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A Well, it's been a long time ago and it's getting u 15 somewhat fuzzy in my mind, but he indicated he'd done some 16 studies on their quality assurance program which he seemed 17
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to feel weren't given a proper review.in( a our regional I
18 management. But I don't recall any specifics. i 19 Q Did he name a person in the region who was not i
20 reviewing the stuff properly?
21 A If he did, I can't recall who it was. There were c 22 several management changes during the period, you know, in 23 question, and I couldn't even keep track of it. I wasn't
- 24 that closely involved with the project.
25 Q Were there any other inspectors out at the site m :- -- . . =. __
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9 l' at the time that expressed similar concerns?-
2 A No.
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0 (By Mr. Goldberg) How big of a team of
. 1 4 inspec' tors did you have at the time for this particular I 5 report, when you were there?
s 6 A All I recall, as far as people with input to that [.
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7 report, was and shannon and myself.
Possibly, 8 I guess, probably Cliff Bale would have had input, too.
, 9 I'm not certain to that. But*he was there and working in 10 the same trailer that we were.
11 Q What's your impression of quality assurance in 12 general in the region in terms of, you know, you deal with 13 QA issues, yourself, in other plants and from what I i 14 understand, you'd been up in Region III. How do you look 15 at how QA is looked at here; and compare it with Region 16 III's QA oversight.
17 A .I would -- I don't know as I'm really qualified a 18 l' to make a comparison, but I have a feeling that we probably ,
4 19 don't look into it in,quite the same depth as Region III, 20 because they have a section assigned.only quality assurance !
21 responsibility with no other duties.
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22 0 (By Mr. Mulley) You, a couple of minutes ago, 23 mentioned the fact that several inspectors had expressed 24 concern over the way, you know, they perceived management 25 as handling some of their reports. When this was told.to -
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- 1. you, what was your reaction? Maybe not --
2 A I didn't' say several inspectors.
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-Q I'mspeakingof{ ]andPhillips,two. l I 4 A In the case of Phillips, I'm not sure a report l
5 was involved. . I mean, by "a report" I mean a formal
! 6 inspection report. I said he did a study. Now, I don't .
7 know what -- how he -- how he presented this study, whether 8 it was an informal report or informal meno or whatever.
l 9 Pardon,me. Go ahead with -- what was your question? ,
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10 Q I'm not asking, you know, I'm not asking for what 11 you told them, but within yourself, did this seen 12 believab'le to you? Did it seen, were you astonished by
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somebody having this sort of compleint?
13 What was your -- l 14 how did you accept this, these two criticisms?
i 15 A I was s.urprised. I hadn't encountered that type 16 of criticism of NRC management before. I don't know. I 17 just took a wait and see attitude.
18 Q Did you ever have an occasion to witness any 19 discussions between Tom Westerman and inspectors over how. ,
1 20 inspection reports should be written? j 21 A No. When I was - during the period when I was 22 down there, Mr. Westerman was just taking responsibility 23 for that project. And as I recall, he was having 24 discussions with NRR and upper regional management and he
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25 did not get involved in my level s't that time. So I have .
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.11 1 no' recollection of any interactions between him and the 2 inspectors.
3 Q What about here at the' headquarters itself, after ]
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l 4 you came off the site? Are you aware of any meetings in j i
i 5 his office where inspectors and Westerman disagreed over-I. 6 how inspection reports-should be written?
!- 7 A No, I'm not.
l l 8 Q What about between inspectors and Mr. Eric q l
9 Johnson, any disagreements th'at you know o.f?
10 A Just hearsay. I mean, I heard there were 11 disagreements from people not directly involved in the i
12 disagreement.
. f l 13 Q What sort of disagreements were there between 14 Johnson and the inspectors, as far as the hearsay that you )
j 15 picked up? I 16 A Well, I heard that Mr. Johnson was very critical 17 of one of the reports that Shannon Phillips transmited to >
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l h1 i 18 the office. And it was my understanding that it was a i 19 draft report, it wasn't intended to be a. final. And 20 Mr. Phillips was offended by the criticism. ,
j 21 Q (By Mr. Goldberg) Do you know the specifics on i 22 that? Do you know exactly what the issue was?
23 A- No, I don't.
24 Q (By Mr. Mulley). Could you describe for me based i
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25 on your experience and time here at Region IV, what the.
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l 1 general Region IV enforcement policy is towards licensees, 2 or does.the Region have a policy that they like to apply? j l
' l 3 A I think it coincides very closely with what we 4 find in I&E procedure manuals. I know of no differences.
J 5 Q Do you feel that the Region's doing an objective 1
l 6 job at these various comanche Peak and these other sites in i
l 7 inspecting and, you know, documenting inspection findings )
i l 8 and, you know, a fair enforcement policy?
9 A i think the Region is doing an objective job at l 1
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10 all their facilities, but I only can speak for Waterford {
l 11 and some extent South Texas at this time. And I feel the ;
12 policy is objective and the performance of the mission is I
13 objective at those facilities. l 1
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0 Are you aware of the 766 forms, I guess you'd l
15 call them, input to the, you know, the computer system? )
1 16 A Yes. l 17 Q Have you ever encountered any problems concerning ,
i 18 the accuracy of the 766 forms and the computer printout '
19 that results from these forms?
20 A You're saying do the forms, or does the printout 21 reflect what the forms input?
1 22 Q Or does the printout reflect --
23 Q (By Mr. Goldberg) -- how many hours was expended
[ 24 for each area, each module in the program?
25 A I haven't seen any problems.that way. -
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l 13 1 Q (By Mr. Mulley) When you conduct an inspection, f 2 do you prepare _the 766 form, yourself?
3 A Yes.
j 4 Q Okay. And that's attached to the inspection j 5 ' report, do I have'that correct?
l 6 A Yes.
7 Q And then it goes and somebody else inputs into 8 the the system?
! 9 A Yes.
10 Q Have you -- if during he preparation of a 766 l 11 form -- if you do work on an inspection, do I have it right 12 when I say that work should be documented in the inspection
, 13 report; is that correct?
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A That's correct.
l 15 Q Okay. And then when you prepare the 766 form, I 16 guess that information is taken off the inspection report 17 and references back to that inspection report by number, 18 doesn't it? Do I have that correct? l 19 A That's correct. ,
20 Q Would I be right to assume then if I looked at a 21 766 form or the computer printout that comes from the form 22 and it talks about an inspection procedure that was done in 23 the form, you know, -- I don't know, 35,060, for example, 4 24 if that 766 shows that inspection procedure as being 25 performed, I should be able to go back to the inspection
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14 1 report.and'get the details of the inspection of that -
2 procedure; is that' correct?
3 A Well, you should.be able to but it's not 4 necessarily true, because sometimes inspectors will perform 5 a procedure and say'nothing about it-in the report.-
6 Normally, they should discuss it in the report, 7 though, if they spend time on it.
8 Q (By Mr. Goldberg) I don't understand what you 9 just said. If you spend. time'in'the area, normally in your 10 inspection report don't you describe that area you've-just' 1
11 looked at, whether it's reactor internals or piping or what 12 have you, that you did look at that particular area, you l
- 13 may have no findings, but don't you normally in your 14 inspection report identify the area you're looking at?
1 15 A You're supposed to. But what I'm saying, it may l
16 not necessarily be done. :
i 17 C (By Mr. Mulley) Why -- ]
l 18 Q (By Mr. Goldberg) Why wouldn't it be done?
19 A I don't know. Maybe the inspector just forgot to 20 document it.
f 21 Q But that may be documented in the 766 card, is 22 that what you are saying?
23 A Yes, it acy.
- 24 Q I have a related question to what' George is 25 asking. How do you determine you have completed a --
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15 1 procedure, you've closed it out, you've done a hundred 2 percent? What is you criteria for determining that?
3 A well, generally I don't know how all inspectors 4 do it, but you use a procedure as a guideline and check to 5 see that you performed all the steps required and that'you 6 don't have any further inspection to perform on any of the 7 steps and it's a judgment call, when you think you're 8 through.
9 Q You're saying you use the procedure as a 10 guideline. Are you saying that you do not take section two
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11 of the procedure, the requirements, and take each one of 12 them and finish those before you close it out? Is that i
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I 13 what you're saying, or are you checking those line items in 1 14 the requirements section? ,
15 A That's true, if you read our program, depending j 16 on what program you're following, today we're talking about 17 the 25.12 program, the construction program. y l
18 Q Right.
19 A I generally, recently I worked the 25.15 program.
20 But it's a judgment call as to whether you do every step in !
f 21 the procedure. If you have reason to believe that the
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22 licensee is in compliance from other sources or you have ;
23 reason to believe that a step was performed in another
- 24 inspection, it's not mandatory that each individual line 25 item be performed for that reason. In all cases they -
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1 16 1 aren't performed in each inspection as to that procedure.
2 Q (By Mr. 'Mulley) Is there any sort of a double 3 check on these forms? When you submit your 766 and it goes 4 in to be input into the computer, is there any sort of 1
5 double check later on to make sure that all this is done i 6 properly, that the inspector properly prepared the form, 7 that it was properly, you'know, put into the computer?
l 8 Are you aware of any double check?
9 A Not really. I think our management is supposed 10 to look at the form but all I can tell you, the only time 11 I've had one kick back is when I left a blank and the 12 computer operator picked it up or I put the number in a
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13 particular blank which the computer wouldn't allow.
14 Q (By Mr. Goldberg) Is there a regional policy on 15 how you deal with inspection prep time, travel time,*
16 prioritized in between Unit 1 and Unit 2, multiple unit 17 sites when have you to bill out your 766 time; is there a l l
18 standard way of doing all this report writing, et cetera?
19 Do you put those in your 766 report appropriately?
20 A Well, we have guides on preparing the report.
21 But when it comes to 766, I follow the I&E procedure. I 22 don't know of any specific regional guide we have for that.
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- 23 0 Let me ask it a different way. For prep time, l
( 24 how do you assign prep time? Do you assign it to the 25 specific modules that you're looking -- going to be ~~
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17 1 inspecting? When you do reports, do you assign those to 2 specific modules that you looked at? How do you, yourself, 3 do that?
4 A You sign preparation time to a report number in 5 our TNA system, " Ritz" we call it. As far as 766, it's not 6 reflected in the 766 reports.
7 Q 766, therefore, is direct irespection hours only?
8 A Only direct inspection hours.
9 Q Okay. 1 10 Q (By Mr. Mulley) If you are conducting an
- i 11 inspection of a procedure and you decide that even though 12 you haven't done all the various line items, you're through
- 13 with the procedure, you've done enough, or maybe you don't !
14 have enough time, maybe there's something else that takes )
15 priority, so you decide to close out the procedure, how do 16 you do that? Would you just close it out as being 50 17 percent complete or would you close it out as being a $
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18 hundred percent complete even though you only did 50 19 percen't of the work?
20 A I don't have authority to close one out unless 21 it's a hundred percent complete. If I, for some reason I l 22 could only do 50 percent, I would inform my management that i 23 that's what I had dene and either I needed to go back and i 24 finish it up or.they needed to assign some other inspector 25 to the procedure, or if they have figured, you know, it was TATE RE. PORTING SERVICE, (713) 222-717.
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18 g, 1 adequate,f then m?Lmanagement could close it out.
2 Q (ByNr.~Goldberg)- Wnen you say you inform e
v3 management, I'h not clear about the way you do that. In.
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j' l' 4 y o u r i n s p e c s'(hion report, it.doesn't show per se how much of {
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5 the procedure you completed, as I unders.tand it.
The only 6? place that's going to be in th 766 reporting; is'that 1
7 right? -]
1 8 That's true. 1 1.i ;
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Q Does your manager see every input you make into i
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10 7667 11 A Yes.
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.Q Okay. So he would be aware of that?. 1 i 13 )A But I would tell him orally that I hadn't 14 complete'd the procedure.
- 15 Q But from a documentation point of view, the only 16 pla'ce he really sees that is in the 766 reporting
/ 17 information,.in documentation I'm saying?
18 A That's probably true. Generally, in writing a 19 ro p'o r't , it wouldn't'be proper-that -- to write in sthe 3
4 20 report we worked on procedure such and such an$ didn't
- complete it, we ' don't give the licensee that type of
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'22 informati6n'gener$11y. So -- and we don't give_them the. '
23 766. ,
'14 Q Who keeps track for your manager on the'
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25 completion of modu e's? Is there somebody in the.seetion or -1
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19 1 branch that keeps a running account before, for example, a 2 letter goes out ab'out the readiness of'the plant to get a l
3 license? Is there somebody keeping a record of that, 1
4 ,omebody responsible for that?
i 5 A Yes. Usually we -- usually that person has a j l
6 title of project inspector.
. l 7 Q Which is your title? :
l 8 A Yeah, I do that for Waterford. l 9 0 So you know, in the'15 program which is a 10 different program than we're discussing, the percent of' 11 completion of modules and TI's that are going on for 12 Waterford?
l l 13 A Yes. I review each 766 that comes back after the 14 inspections are made and I enter their percentage l
15 completion in a schedule. -
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i l 16 0 Who is the Comanche ?eak project inspector?
i 17 A I think there are more than one on Comanche Peak 1
18 right now, and I don't know who has that responsibility. t l
1 19 0 or, conversely who has --
I 20 A Cliff fiale is one of the project inspectors. But 21 I think there may be others.
22 Q (By Mr. Mulley) So in your, you know, role right 23 now, if you decided that although the inspector's only done i 24 50 percent of the module, he's not going to do anymore for l 25 whatever reason, doesn't have enough time or whatever, on -
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20 1 the 766 would you show that when you close it out as being 2 a hundred percent complete or would you just close it out j 3 at 50 percent complete? I 4 A I would show it, if the inspector turns in 50 5 percent, I would show it as 50 percent, or he would show it 1 1
6 as 50 percent; and if management made a decision not to l
7 psrform more on that inspection and I was a project !
8 inspector, I would put a "C" after it to indicate that a 9 consciouc decision had been made to close it out.
l 10 Q (By Mr. Goldberg) Let me try, George, a question ,
11 a different way. If the resident or someone else, let's 12 say at Waterford, submits the information as a hundred i
13 percent complete, 100 percent complete, and you look at his 14 inspection reports, and you see that there's a difference 15 between what you read and what would be a hundred percent 16 complete, do you raise objection to that?
17 A Sure.
18 0 (By Mr. Goldberg) Okay. i 19 0 (By Mr. Mulley) You told me a little 'while ago 20 that an inspector might consider work done by the licensee 21 as being part of fulfilling the requirement to close out a 22 procedure. Work done by somebody, anybody, you know, in 23 other words, work other than his own, he might feel that 4 24 the licensee has really emphasized this area --
25 A 'No, no, no, correct that. We never consider work
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21' 1 done by the licensee as fulfilling any of our: procedural-
, 2~ requirements. But quite often, we have the same 3 observations made -- being made in multiple procedures.
4 so if I'm aware or if an inspector is. aware that 5 those same line items were performed by another inspector 6 using a different procedure, he may not do those partich.ar 7 ones for the procedure he's working on.
8 Q. Oh, okay.
! -Q (By Mr. Goldberg) Whereby inspectors who are not 10 based in Region IV, would you take credit for these 11 inspectors?
12 A Yes, you can. And you can take credit if they 13 were NRR people, any NRC person assigned as to make 14 inspections for that particular facility, you can take-15 credit if they happen to be consultants which we've hired 16 to, you know, make those particular inspections or 17 evaluations, however you want to call them.
18 Q What about third party reviewers that are hired 19 by the licensee, could they be taken credit for, in 20 completing the inspection procedures?
21 A Not to my knowledge. I've never encountered that 22 si t'ua ti on . l 23 Q (By Mr. Mulley) If this is in fact done, would
$ 24 it be documented anyplace, the. thought process of the 25 inspector in, you know, saying I'm going from 20 percent to ~
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I 1 80 percent because, you know, various line items have been 2 performed in other inspection procedures by other NRC
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3 people and therefore I feel I don't have to do these line l 4 items or whatever? Is that thought process documented 5 anyplace so you understand what he's taking credit for and 6 somebody else'later on down the road would understand, you 7 know?
l 8 A I would say generally not. It's, like I say, l
9 it's a judgment call, usually'made by the inspector. When 10 he, he's usually the person that decides whether he's 11 completed a procedure or not.
12 Q So in that case then, you could have something go 13 from maybe to 20, 30 percent camplete to a hundred percent 14 complete in the inspector's opinion, and really have {
15 nothing there to document? l 16 A That could happen, if it should happen that he l
17 thinks he's performed 30 percent and then after the fact, j 18 he learns of or he reads another report that another 19 inspector has performed and learns that this other i 20 inspector looked at a lot of these items that he was ,
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21 planning on looking at later. l t i i
22 Q (By Mr. Goldberg) Okay, another way of asking -l 23 the question is: If the inspector does not do it, you
! 24 know, showing a.hundred percent complete or 80 percent j
.j 25 complete, you're saying no one else can above him, in other i
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1 words, the inspector is the -- initiates the issue, 2 initiates the action; a project inspector branch or a ,
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3 section chief couldn't do that, or could they?
4 A They could.
5 Q They could, independent of the inspector who's 6 doing the inspection?
7 k Yes. ;
8 Q How could they do that?
l
-9 A They could be aware of, like I say, the part of p 10 the inspection which the inspector that was working on the 11 procedure didn't have a chance to complete, if they were
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12 aware that another inspector had done this part of the 1
13 inspection, they could assign that credit to the procedure. /
14 -
Q But they'd have to do it in a consultation with 15 the inspector who did the work?
16 A I would think so. They wouldn't have to, but 17 normally they would.
18 Q Okay.
e 19 A They could consult each inspector independently.
20 Q Yeah, but see what's confusing me, do they input 21 the 7667 I thought you said earlier the inspector would 22 input the 766 data. Are we getting multiple people 23 inputting the data base?
. 24 A Well,.that's possible.
25 Q Is there a procedure in the Region about who TATE REPORTING SERVICE, (713) 222-7177
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24 1 inputs the data base? I'f there isn't, doesn't it lend some 2 question about the' reliability.of the data base if you 3 don't have a uniform place where the entry comes in?
4 A The 766 goes through the branch chief, so he's 5 really the -- he signs off the report with the 766 6 attached. So I would think it would be proper that if a
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7 change is going to be made to a 766f 'or a particular l 8 report, he would be made aware of it.
9 Q But what I don't understand here is, who actually l
10 puts -- makes the input into 766, the branch, chief, the 11 project inspector, the resident inspector?
12 A The inspector performing the inspection; but as I l
13 say, it goes on up through the reviews at the --
l 14 -
Q But the problem is there can be multiple inputs;
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15, there's a greater chance of reliability problems, of the 16 data. In any data that ycu work on, generally when you're 1
! 17 working with a computer data base, you try to keep a l 18 minimal amount of contact with the input of that data as l
19 you can because of the reliab411ty -- if you understand 20 data reliability, it goes down as a function of how'many i 21 people can input into that data base. '
22 So what you're describing leads to some question 23 about the reliability of 766 data base on -- you are saying
( 24 that there isn't any procedure about who does it, when they 25 do it, how they do it. -
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25 1 A Well, you might question the reliability of the 2 hours input to the 766, but when it comes to the percentage 3 performed on a procedure, I wouldn't have much question on l
l 4 it because anybody making input has made a conscious 1
5 decision as to th'e reasoning behind their number --
6 Q But that is a subjective judgment to some extent l 7 and may not be in a sense -- is not a quality control step, l
l 8 necessarily, where there is a body of opinion of whethe*
i 9 that is correct or not, either -- for example, when 10 escalated enforcement action is taken in the Region, it 11 goes to an enforcemen't coordinator who has sort of a i
12 perspective of seeing things from a general multiple plant, j 13 multiple inspector situation.
14 -
I don't -- from what you're describing, you don't i 15 have that type of an individual who might challenge the !
l 16 percent completion of modules, that it may have a different i
17 point of view than the section chief or branch chief. That j 18 capability does not exist in the Region. {
19 A I'm not sure it exists in any region. I would,
- 20 in my opinion, the chief responsible for that project, he's 21 responsible for the percentage completion on the 22 procedures.
23 Q (By Mr. Mulley) What would happen --
l 24 A And he --
25 Q (By Mr. Goldberg) You're talking about other
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1 specialties that come in. You've got security, fire l
2 protection, qualit'y assurance, you're saying that the 3 project chief understands in great -- enough detail to knov 4 the multi-disciplinary facts of how one procedure closes 5 out other procedures? ,
6 A No, I'm not saying he has that expertise, but I'm 7 saying he has the ability to consult with the various 8 people involved in the --
9 Q But there's no person who looks at this and f
10 determines whether 766 is being handled consistently from .
! I 11 one section chief to another section chief? ,
12 A I don't know of anybody that does that.
13 Q okay.
14
- Q (By Mr. Mulley) I think the problem that we're 15 having in during this review that we're doing now, is that 16 we see a lot of inspection procedures closed out on the 766 17 where you go from ten percent to a hundred percent and, for 18 example, they have an inspection report number next to that 19 90 percent, and you to go the inspection report and there's 20 not one word about that procedure in the report.
i 21 So there's no way anybody can assess, you know, 22 how it got closed out. And that's the problem that we are l
! 23 running into now.
I 24 A What you have is a situation where the only way
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25 we can input into the 766, the way it'.s set up, is by l
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'27 j 1 ' report number. And when you get task force involved you 2 may have a situation where a task force performs certain A
3 reviews or inspections and it's never documented as an 4 inspeed n report. And come person may decide, hey, we did 5 this, and we're going to insert it. And so just' pick a
'6 number, on one of our reports, we're going to enter this 7 data.
8 Q' (By Mr. Goldberg) You were involved with
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9 Waterford. Do you think there's any pressure to close 10 inspection procedures based on the closeness of the fuel ]
11 load date or the criticality date; in other words, is there 12 any pressure in this region to finish up procedures that 4
13 weren't really finished up based on a -- when you do your 14 readiness module that you've completed more modules than i
15 you actually did?
16 A I wasn't involved in Waterford at that stage but 17 I was involved with Wolf Creek and I never_saw any pressure ]
18 of that nature. I j 19 Q (By Mr. Mulley) What is the information from.the I' 20 766's used for, when you get the computer printout showing, ]
21 for example, comanche Peak and al the inspection i
22 procedures, inspection modules and then, you know, 23 percentage complete, a hundred percent, a hundred percent
{ 24 complete, right'down the line, what is this information 25 used? Who uses this type of information, for V.st reason?
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28 1 Do you know?
2 A You're talking about a similar plant to Comanche 3 Peak, similar phase?
4 Q Any plant. For example, if I go to the computer 5 now and I want to know what inspection procedures have been 6 done on comanche Peak, I, you know, enter and get my 7 printout that is based on the 766 data, and then go right 8 down the list, as a matter of fact, I've got the list 9 someplace and it will show"all'the inspection proce'.ures 10 and next to it, it will show, you know, the status c? the 11 procedure being at 10 percent complete or 20 percent 12 complete and next to that will be the inspection reports I; 13 that is supposedly, you know, the work was done on.
14 '
Who uses this information; do you know? I mean, 1 15 who would ask the computer for a printout like this and I 16 then make -- then use it?
17 A I would guess the project section chief, branch 18 chief, division director, regional administrator.
19 Q Is this used to assess the amount of work that's 20 been completed at the site?
21 A I would think so. It would be one of the L 22 documents which would be used to assess completion.
23 Q So I guess the thing we're looking for then, when
{ 24 a ple.nt is ready-to be licensed, is to have a 766 computer 25 printout with everything 100 percent complete on the side
.. . TATE REPORTING SERVICE, (713) 222-7177.
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29 1 then, I guess is that what the ultimate goal is and that 2 means we're done with our inspection of the site?
3 O (By Mr. Goldberg) George is talking about the 4 25.12 program specifically.
5 A I regard the 766 as more of a bean counters 6 instrument. I would think a project inspector would have a 7 better document than a 766 to track open items to 8 completion. I know I do for Waterford, I never look at the 9 766. I have a schedule with actua1 status of all the t
t 10 procedures for the year.
1 11 Q (By Mr. Mulley) Okay, let's take Waterford.
12 When it comes up for licensing, do the Region people go to 13 you and ask you what the status is or they just go to the 14 766's, when decisions are made ac to how.much more work we I 15 have to do to get this plant ready to go --
16 Q (By Mr. Goldberg) Maybe Wolf Creek would be a i
17 better example because Wolf Creek was during pre-op and f 18 start-up testing.
19 A They would to go the project inspector, who 20 wasn't me for Waterford; I was a resident. But they would I l 21 go to him and he would be tracking all of the open 22 procedures. And they would say, " Hey, Bob, where do we 23 stand on all of the procedures which we have to complete?"
I 24 And he would probably use the 766 but that l 25 wouldn't be his primary document.from which he would answer
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the question, because there'.s a lot of questions that 2 aren't reflected in the 766 which would have to be answered 3 anyway.
4 Q (By Mr. Mulley) During your time at Region IV, 5 have you ever been steered away from identifying and 6 documenting QA problems, you know, steered towards looking.
7 at hardware issues that can be, you know, pretty much 8 repaired, fixed very fast?
9 A No, I've been given pretty much a free hand to 10 look at anything since I've been in Region IV. :
11 Q When you were at Comanche Peak, did you work with 12 any consultants for the month that you were there? l 4
13 A I can't recall that I saw any consultants the 1~4 month I was down there. .
j l
15 Q Okay. While you were at Waterford or Wolf Creek, .
- 16 did the Region have consultants at those places, that 17 you're aware of?
18 A At Wolf Creek, I assumed the responsibility on 19 Waterford several months after it had been given full power 20 operating license. So it was pretty much in a normal 21 operating status. And we didn't have any consultants in 22 that time.
23 And Waterford -- or Wolf Creek, we did employ a
! 24 number of consultants, particularly in closing out open ;
25 items. .
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1 Q Were they given freedom by the Region to, you 2 know, fully develop and explore anything that they saw-was, 3 you know, needed to be worked on?
4 A They were at wolf. creek, they were pretty much 5
treated as regular inspectors and told to do whatever they 6 had to do to complete the procedures they were working on.
7 Q Have you ever worked for Tom Westerman?
8 A Not formally. As I say, I was performing 9- inspections at Comanche Peak when he was appointed chief or 10 whatever organization that was called at the time, the task 11 force, I guess, or whatever. But I never had any contact 12 with him as far as my work.
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Q So you have no firsthand knowledge, then, 14 concerning any management philosophy he may have about, you 15 know, keeping things on an' informal basis with the i
16 licensee?
I 17 A No, I don't know anything about that. '
18 (By. Mr. Goldberg)
Q I have no more questions.
- 19 (By Mr. Mulley)
Q Do you have anything that you 20 would like to add before we close out this interview?
21 A No. I 22 (Statement concluded at 2:43 p.m., CDT.)
23
( 24 25 .
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1 THE STATE OF TEXAS:
2 COUNTY OF HARRIS:
3 4 I, R. Patrick Tate, Texas CSR #1730 and Notary Public 5 in and for the State of Texas at large, do hereby certify 6 that the facts as stated by me in the caption hereto are 7 true; that the above and foregoing answers of the witness j 8 to the Interrogatories as indicated were made before me by 1
I
., 9 the said witness after being f'irst duly cautioned and sworn 10 to testify the truth, the whale truth and nothing but the 11 truth, and the same were thereafter reduced to typewriting 12 by me or under my direction and supervision. .
l, 13 I further certify that the above and foregoing -
14 sworn statement, as set forth in typewriting is a full, i 15 true and correct transcript of the proceedings had at the 16 time of taking of said sworn statement and that I am 17 neither counsel for nor employed by any party hereto. j i
18 In testimony whereof, witness my hand, this 10th 19 day of July, 1986.
20 0 21 P o 1 22 My Business address is: .. op ( o/A, 1712 Esperson Buildings k. Patrick Tate, CSR #1730 23 Houston, Texas 77002 Notary Public in and for My current certification the State of Texas l
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24 expires: 12-31-86 My Conmission Expires: 06-27-89 25 .
, TATE REPORTING SERVICE, (713) 222-7177
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