ML20212L987
| ML20212L987 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | 05000000, Fermi |
| Issue date: | 03/12/1985 |
| From: | COMMONWEALTH EDISON CO. |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20212J657 | List:
|
| References | |
| FOIA-86-202 NUDOCS 8701290461 | |
| Download: ML20212L987 (39) | |
Text
.
OR GlTAL.
r U511ED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION c
~
IN THE MATTER OF:
DOCKET NO:
INVESTIGATIVE INTERVIEW (CLOSED MEETING)
LOCATION:
PLYMOUTH, MA PAGES:
38 i
DATE:
TUESDAY, MARCH 12, 1985 12 1 870116
(
GARDEBb-202 PDR i,
L ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
1 ottwaiMxrun 444 North CapitolStreet Washington, D.C. 20001 EXHIBIT 11 (202) 347-3700 MIONE CONG y
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2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 3
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 4
5 6
In the Matter of:
7 GA TERVIEW OT 8
i 9
10 Classroom Pilgrim Huclear Plane 11 Route 3A Plymouth, MA 12 Tuesday, March 12, 1965 13 ja The interview of commenced i
15 at 11 :4 7 a.m., pursuant to Notice.
16 PRESENT:
j7 JAllES N. KALKMAN, Investigator Office of Investigations 18 Tield Office: Region III 799 Roosevelt Road 19 Glen Ellyn, IL 60137 20 21 Pilgrim Nuclear Station Plymouth, MA 22 23 24 25 APEX Reporting Regiaered Professimal Reporters P.O. Box 3 Boxa, Massachuurts 02112
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1 INDPX 17ITNESS :
2 EXAE5i:ATIOM:
3 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
l 10 11 12 13 14 15 l
l 17 18 19 yn 21 22 l
23 l
24 25 i
APEX Reporting Redstered Profession.11 Reponers P.O. Box 3 Boson, Massachusats 02112
3 I
PROCEEDINGS 2
11:47 3
!!R. 1; ALKPAU :
For the record, this is t:he 4
interview of who is 5
employed by Boston Edison.
The location of this interview i
6 is Plymouth, !!assachusetts.
7 Present at this interview is tiPC 8
Investigator Janes Kalknan (K-a-l-k-m-a-n).
9 Interview is being recorded by.Tanet Hills.
10 The subject matter of this interview concerns 11 alleced record falsification by L.X.
Constock at the Ferni II l
12 Muclear Power Station.
13 Mr.
would you please stand and raise ja your right hand?
15 1:hereupon, 16 17 having been first duly sworn, was called as a witness herein, and was examined and testified as follows:
18 EXA?'INATIOD l
j9 M. R. M MN:
20 D
Do you currently work for Boston Edisen?
h a t 21 s.
is your posit _ ion?
22 23 0
1; w long have you held that position?
24 7
Sin e Yes, I think it was 25 APEX Reporting Regisered Professiond Reponers P.O. Box 3 Boson, Massachusats 02112 r-m m
m
i 4
1 The exact dates I'm not sure of.
l 2
O Prior to working for Boston Edison at Pilcrir 1
3 Station you were where?
4 A
Before Boston Edison I was working here, for 5
6 0
Have you w any other nuclear plants y
between your L.K. Comstock employment and your present job?
8 A
NO-l 9
Q So you came from Fermi II to Pilgrim?
10 A
To Pilgrim.
jj Q
Eow long did you work at Fermi?
12 A
13 ja O
And what was your function at Fermi?
A Assistant OC manager.
15 Throughout that time period, for those %
16 O
l 37 years?
l That wasn't quite @ ~ years.
I$t's see, 18 A
19 Yes, sir, I
20 I was hired as assistant Oc manager."--
Q As assistant QC manager what were your func'tions ?
21
?
A It was handle the inspecto'r's for 'tfe 'electrTeal 22 23 conduit program for the conduit work on the Fermi project.
O How many inspectors did you supervise?
24 A
At one time, for two or 'three months they had s
25 APEX Reporting Regisered Professional Reponers P.O. Box 3 naaam w na a.., -. nosso
I to bring a lot of them from another job site.
Inspectors and
-2 clerks?
Or just inspectors?
3 O
Hell, how nany people were you responsible for?
4 A
There was about 90.
90 to 98 at one time.
5 Q
pnd the majority of those people were OC 6
inspectors?
7 A
Yes, sir.
At the bulk, when we had the bulk of
~
8 the inspections.
s 9
Q And all these people worked directly for 10 Comstock?
ij A
Yes, sir. I'm pretty sure, because they brought 12 a lot of them when we had the bulk of the inspections down 13 from -- what was that other plant up north?
i ja Q
Midland?
A Yes, Midland.
15.
Q Did you have certifications as a quality control 16 inspector yourself?
j7 A
Oh, yes.
18 0
What levels?
What type?
39 A ~
When~I was there?
20 21 O
Y* * * ' #
A All the way up :.to level 3.
22 o
Level 3 QC7 23 A
Yes, sir.
24 0
Conduit?
Electrical?
3 APEX Reporting Regisered Professwnal Reponers 4
P.O. Box 3 Boson. Massachuunts 02112
1 A
Pechanical.
I've got all that back in by 2
briefcase if you want to see it.
3 O
It's okay. So your function was to inspect the 4
work product that cor*tock perforned, when they would install 5
conduit or hangars or something of that nature?
6 A
Yes, sir.
Conduit.
Yes.
7 O
You people would inspect the placement?
I 8
A Yes, sir.
9 O
Amd inspect it to whatever codes were 10 applicable?
l jj A
Yes.
12 Q
During the time period of 13 was that the last portion of Constock's activities at Fermi?
34 A
Well, it was winding down.
I was laid off.
15 0
You were laid off basically when the job was 16 finished?
37 A
It was coming.
It was winding down.
- Yes, 18 0
What specifically did the QC Department do to j9 turn over the Comstock product to Detroit Edison?
3 A
Well, at the finalization they had all the 21 g
check list of conduit and hangar check list in the file.
I 22 l
gu ss it was around December when they were figuring on 23 turning the whole bulk of it over.
Earlier that year they 24 had got rid of the QCLnanager, so I was the only one there s
3 APEX Reporting Resisered Professional Reponers P.O. Box 3 l
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that had signature authority.
Is that what you're askina me 2
about?
3 0
Yes.
4 A
So as we were turning the records over they would 5
come in to me, I would verify the project or the product, 6
conduit or hangar was inspector, and I would review it and 7
sign my name as the authorizer.
In other words, for the 8
reviewing of the records.
9 O
Are you referring to inspection check lists?
10 A
Yes.
n Q
The GC inspectors would go out and physically 12 Perform inspectors?
A Yes.
13 ja O
And they would fill out check lists with attributes relating---
15 A
To what. heir inspection was.
16 Q
And if everything was acceptable they would 17 sign off on it?
Give the paperwork to you and you would 18 review it?
39
-gv:# Review it
^Yes.
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20 Q
17 hat was the process if there were rejectable g
item's?
~
l' 22 A
If they were rejectable items they would have to 23 g
ut and re-inspect them and check the bottoms.
The check 24 list had two blocks on it, acceptable and rejectable'(r-e-j).
25 APEX Reporting Reginered Professional Reponers
' 21 P.OI. Bor 3 Boson, Massachusats 02112
8 1
If it was rejectable they would turn it over to the 2
L.J. Comstock Construction or repa[r whatever was rejectable.
3 And the inspector would go back out and re-inspect what was 4
rejectable, and then he would put it on " rejectable part" 5
and make an additional check list.
6 O
So Comstock production people would actually 7
repair whatever the rejectable item was?
8 A
Yes.
9 O
Is there any review process by an engineer?
10 Did an engineer have to look at it first, at the rejectable 11 item to see if it needed to be repaired, or could be used as is?
12 A
If it was wrote up as a deficiency.
Yes, sir.
13 ja Q
All rejectable items were not written up as deficiencies?
15 A
No, sir.
16 Q
What was the difference?
37 A
Well, a deficiency is something that was 18 installed, not by the Fermi design in other words.
They are j9 drawings.
You know, a hangar was not specifically where the drawings called for, and that type of situation.
It was
)
O items that could be repaired without having to. write up a l
deficiency report on it.
In other words, if a conduit was 23 wrong two or three foot in the wrong place or wro,ng direction that would be UCR, not to design.
s 25 APEX Reporting Resisered Professonal Reponers P.O. Box 3 Boson, Massadumsts 02112
9 1
Then the engineering departnent would Cisposition 2
that you have to use that as a repair or whatever.
3 0
At the end of the project, as far as Constock's 4
involvement, when inspectors had inspection check lists that 5
had rejectable items that were written up as non-perfornances 6
or NCR's or DDR's -- is that what you call then?
7 A
Yes.
Document deficiency.
i 8
O At that point Comstock wouldn't repair any 9
longer.
Right?
Someone else would because Constock was 10 leaving the site?
11 A
Yes, that was what the final push and the 12 rush was on. In other words, they were going -- Detroit 13 Edison was going to take them back and repair theirselves.
(
And everything -- they wanted all of our records turned over ja at one time is what it amounted to.
And if they had a 15 deficiency on them Detroit Edison was going to accept them 16 v'.th the deficiencies.
17 18 Q
How did this punch list system work?
Is that another way of categorizing a rejectable item?
j9 20
- --'A'
- Yes.,.3In other words, they,would.take parts of a system -or.whatever they wanted to turn over.
They would 21 send up a package, we want this part of the system, or f
22 whatever.
What we would do is write up the punch list, 23 identify the deficiencies in that system that Detroit Edison 24 wan e, and send that over to project.
25 APEX Reporting Regisered Professional Reponers P.O. Box 3 Bonon, Massachusets 02112
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O Was the punch list system developed specifically 2
for this record turnover?
3 A
Yes, sir.
4 Q
Prior to that time, if you had rejectable itens 5
w)uld you write up a DDR or an NCR?
6 A
No, sir.
7 l
0 And have Edison look at the rejected item that 8
way, and disposition it?
9 A
Yes, sir.
This turnover system was actually set 10 up for the demobilization of Comstock.
In other words, they ij were demobilizing Comstock at the time.
And that is why 12 they wanted everything we had recordwise, whether it was 13 deficient or not, as long as the deficiency was notified on there.
y, 15 Then I guess after that they went back and 16 started rebuilding Comstock back up and started hiring more 17 pe ple and everything I guess.
0 Because the punch list system wasn't workino?
18 A
Either that or the bulk of it was too much work j9 or something.
So they started bringing people back on.
3 Actually, just before I was laid off they started building it g
back"up!
Just to take careof the problems that were-g existing.
What the biggest problem was is that their 23 re ras should have been turned over as they were done instead 24 of all at once.
3 s
APEX Reporting Reginered Professional Reponers P.O. Box 3 Bonon, Massachusats 02112
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11 1
Q Was there any concern on the inspectors' part 2
about this jurisdictional turnover of records? t'ould anyone 3
have to sign off on an inspection that they knew had 4
rejectable items?
5 A
well,'yes.
And they were explaining the procedu:.e 6
was given to them to read for what we were doina.
In other 7
words, the procedure stated, you know, that all we was doing 8
was turning the records over to the client.
And I can't 9
remember procedure.
10 0
Was that a Detroit Edison procedure or Constock?
11 A
It was Comstock.
If I remember richtly, it was 12 approved by Detroit Edison.
13 Q
Was there a procedure for jurisdictional
('
ja turnover of records?
A Yes, sir, and it was approved by Detroit S
15 Edison's QA.
It had to be.
Yes, because we were the sub-16 contractor.
37 18 0
You personally didn't feel that was the most efficient way, most acceptable way, to handle that closecut u
39 of these records,-or of the inspections?-
20 A
How did you find that out?
21
'O Well, just fr m -- I think you implied that you 22 felt that Comstock should have stayed and closed out their 23 wn re e table items?
24 A
Yes, sir, I do.
I didn't approve of the 25 APEX Reporting Reginered Professional Reponers P.O. Box 3 Boson, Massachusnets 02112
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procedure to start with.
As a way I've always tried to 2
operate, if a product wasn't right it wasn't right.
3 O
Do you think it would have been difficult for 4
Detroit Edison to go back and do an acceptable job repairing 5
Comstock work?
Not having been as familiar as the Comstock PeoP e would be with the areas.
Do you know what I'm l
6 7
trying to get at?
I 8
l A
Not really.
9 Q
Well, do you think Fdison would do the quality 10 job that Comstock could do on their own work?
11 A
Well, I couldn't really say that.
I mean, you've 12 got qualified people in there, sure.
Because everything was 13 done by procedure, you know.
If you read procedure you could do it.
As long as you had the qualified electricians that 14 really cared about the job.
But you get trades in there that 15 don't really care about the job.
16 O
Do you think it's possible that because of this 17 record turnover and this punch list system that Detroit 18 Edison was using to follow up on rejectable items, do you 39 think it's possible-that Edison could miss-certain areas?
20 A
No.
When we turned them over we had the system 21 covered pretty good.
Whether they wanted parts or not' wi 22 had it all down where we knew where we was.
Comstock had 23 it down, you know, pretty good for that type of a turnover.
24 That is what they wanted.
We researched it, and that's what n
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we tried to give them.
2 O
What was your concern about the record turnover 3
and the jurisdictional turnover?
4 A
I just didn't like to have to turn everything 5
ove r in bulk.
I don't know.
When you are doing an inspection, 6
that inspection and the paperwork should be turned over at
- 7 that time, instead of that one time when they had us turn 8
it over all at once.
And they gave us a three month period 9
or two month.
It's been over a year.
But we had 15-20 jo file cabinets full of permanent records, that I ended up 11 reviewing, that should be turned when the job is done.
12 Q
Are you referring to when Comstock's work was 13 completed?
A On that particular conduit for that particular 34 hangar, whenever it was.
When the inspector went out and 15 inspected this ten foot, you know.
And that ten foot was 16 acceptable, the record should have been turned over to j7 Detroit Edison at that time.
But there was never anything s'
18 set up for that, and we came down to the final denobilization.
j9 t
And that's what they wanted, all at once, and it was pretty 20 tough.
21 O
I've interviwed several oresent and former 22 C nstock QC people, who had scac concerns about the l
23 jurisdictional record turnover.
And I think they felt that 24 s me f the work wasn't being looked at.
That there was a 25 APEX Reporting Regisered Professional Reponers P.O. Box 3 Boson, Massachusats 02112
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lot of pressure to get these records turned over, and the 2
people weren't performing the type oFinspections that should 3
have been performed?
4 A
No.
I think what they are talking about is a 5
lot of these records -- what had happened is a lot of these records, when Comstock had first started back then.
Thev 6
7 still had to check thoce.
Over a period of time, from the 8
time I got there, the whole program had been chanced two or three times, the way that Detroit Edison wanted it done.
9 10 New forms.
So at the end we had to ao back and put the old records on the new type of forms.
At that time it was
(
11 a ballot.
And there was a lot of push on gettino that j
12 done.
But I can't say that -- I told them to let ne know if j3 they are not satisifed with it, to take the time and go back ja and do it.
Even though I was getting pressured hard.
15 But because I've been in this business since 16 l
I was just pushed, that's all.
I don't try to turn 17 anyone down.
Everybody's got their own system.
I inacine I
18 now I didn't mess up.
39 r:
0 S
C mstock had a chance in their check list,
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20 i-their format, and so on?
f-g A
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f 22 0
.7 extensive was that change?
23 A
S me of it was pretty extensive in the way they 24 inspected.
You know, after working here and learning these 3
APEX Reporting Rennered Professional Reponers P.O. Box 3 Boson. Massachusats 02112
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procedures and everything, I can't quite, you know, renerber 2
what the check lists and everything were right now.
And 3
I'd rather not---
4 Q
But they wanted all the old inspections 5
rewritten?
6 A
Well, on the new type of inspection plan.
Yes.
7 l - Where the old inpsection plan was stapled to it.
,y 8
O One of the attributes that was changed on the 9
inspection check list was the deletion of the as built 10 drawing attribute.
Do you recall that?
ij A
I sure don't.
Like I said, I couldn't remember 12 UOW-13 0
I think early on in the project the inspectors ja were -- one of things they would look at were the drawings 15 to see where the conduit was as the drawing said it should be.
And if they were experiencing a lot of problens in that 16 37 area they'd be deleting that attribute from the check list?
A To tell you the truth, I can't remember that, 18 i
t But in any' nuclear field the prints are always, you know.
f, 39 t
20 Y u know, wh_en,you,_determi,ne to have a, print updated you are always a month behind or something like that.
But I f
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- ""'t remember if that was deleted or not, to tell you the
{r' 22 truth.
23 l
Q Do you think you were experiencing unusual 24 pressure to get these records turned over?
3 l
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A Yes.
2 0
I mean, you've been in the business since 3
and you know what nornal construction pressure involves.
Pas 4
this situation at Fermi unusual?
Was there more pressure than 5
the usual construction?
6 A
Well, when they got rid of the QO manager, they 7
gave me some more help.
In other words, I was 8
left there except for full signature authority.
I was just 9
there by myself.
10 0
Who was the OC manager?
11 A
12 0
He was laid off, or put on a different job?
13 A
No, he was more or less retired.
There was ja no laying off.
I don't know where he went.
1:e had something-else to do.
15 16 0
Uhen he was laid off you were the only person j7 in the management chain in the qC departr,ent?
j A
Yes.
18 Q
Whom did you report to after left?
j9 l
20 Directly to thehome office in Pittsburgh.
A Q
Who in particular?
{
21 r.
A
- Well, was the head' man up at
['
22 Pittsburgh.
But
- I cannot think of his lui,L name --
23 was the regional manager.
g 0
25 l
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A
- Yes, 2
O So your direct line was to 3
A To 4
O Then to 5
A Yes.
6 0
was the person who was putting much y
pressure on you for records turnover?
8 A
No, sir.
9 Q
He wasn't?
10 A
No.
ji O
He wasn't Comstock?
12 A
I said it wasn't Comstock.
13 Q
It wasn't Comstock? It was Edison?
(
ja A
Yes.
0 Who in particular at Edison?
15 A
People at meetings.
I don't know.
I can't l
16 think of their names now.
Fell, what I thought pressures.
j7 18 They wanted it done now, and they would give you a tine schedule to do it.
And we'd try to meet that time schedule.
19 With a little more help we could have made the schedules, but 20 -
i my myself we w re just slipping cnd trying to make a date.
21 O
You were r,esponsible to meet Edison's 22 de!.coules?
I g
A H 11, they would put the schedulings that we 24 needed the systems by.
Like I said, it was demobilization.
25 APEX Reporting Ressered Professional Reponers P.O. Box 3 Boson, Massachuseus 02112
18 1
And we'd get into the mobilization mode.
It's pretty hectic.
2 I can't say it's there, you know.
Of course, they've got 3
so much noney to spend, that type of deal.
4 Q
Did you tell Edison that you were unable to 5
meet their schedule?
6 A
No, sir, I told them we'd do the best we could.
y Q
Did your Comstock nanacement know the type of 8
Pressure that Edison was putting on you people?
9 A
I really couldn't tell you in a direct way whethe r 10 they did or not, Q
Were they supportive?
gj 12 Oh, yes, they'd come down for the meetinos and A
stuff.
13 Q
You said you were the only person that was 9
"~~~
15 A
In charge of inspectors.
All the meetings.
g That way, yes.
I mean you just can't go out and pick a p
Uuy UP off the street for OC manager.
It was tryina.but 18 it was just in a situation where you had a two or three 9
month period there.
They were trying to get me help, butvliko l
20 i
I said, you can't just go and pick a guy up off the street 21 for QC manager.
7 i
I was offered the job, but I did not wanc to take the job.
I'd rather have been with the people, givina out the job tasks and being in the field with them, like I'm APEX Reporting Resisered Professonal Reponers P.O. Box 3 Boson, Massackaars 021J2
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19 I
doing now.
2 O
Hell, obviously Comstock could have sent someone 3
from a different plant or from the home office to help you.
d Did you express the fact that you needed some assistance?
5 A
I don't know if I did really.
I'm not the type 6
of person to sit and cry about somethines.
You've got to dig 7
in harder and deeper and do more.
I can't just sit around 8
crying.
They probably knew that I needed help.
Like I said, 9
they were trying to get somebody.
I think there were just too 10 many people there for me to handle, because I never missed 11 i
a day.
Even cane in while I was sick and stuff.
I used to 12 work seven days a week trying to get caught up.
Therefore, 13 I was working two shifts.
14 Q
Did you feel that if you didn't meet one of the 15 schedules your job would be on the line?
16 A
No, sir, I just knew it would look bad for 17 Comstock.
And me working for Comstock, I'd hear something 18 about it.
Like I said before, that's the way I' operate.
19 Like now on We 20 had a seven day outage.
We had to get that seven day outage 21
-- explain why you couldn't get it.
So I dig in and try to 22 do'the best you can.
~
23 Q
There was no threat for you to lose your job 24 for not meeting the schedule?
25 A
I don't think so.
I think Mr.
thought APEX Reporting Regisered Professonal Reponers
. P.O. Box 3 Bonon, Massachuuas 02112
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the world of me because I did try to do the job every tine.
~~
2 As far as I know, I did not leave with any bad faith within 3
Constock that I know of.
4 Q
This pressure to turn over records.
Nas that 5
the cause of your problem with the---
6 A
I think so.
7 0
... falsification of records?
8 A
Yes, sir.
Part of it.
I can't give you step 9
by step of what happened now.
But all I had to have done was 10 initial and date it and I would have been all right.
But I did not do it, and it was my fault.
That's why I hated for 33 what did happen to happen, but after it did I was scared.
12 I went back and told them the truth, and when Comstock laid 13 me off that's why I didn't pursue anything any further.
I ja just -- because, you know, it hurt me.
Because the type of g
Person I am that would never hurt Comstock, which I was 16 I
trying not to to begin with.
g No, I can't blame anybody for it.
18 O
Could you recall for me the events surrounding these two record falsifications?
A There were three.
21 O
Nhat do you recall from that time period?
A I'd zalher not with this, because 1 really can't remember exactly.
I don't want to---
Q I'm not asking you to remember exactly.
I'm jus g
APEX Reporting Regisered Professional Reponers P.O. Box 3 Bonon, Massachusats 02112
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asking you if you can recall anything dealing with those 2
particular records?
If you can recall the day when this 3
occurred?
4 A
To the best of my knowledge, the way it was now, 5
like I said, they were putting in portions of check lists 6
in folders.
And it was a whole folder full.
There were 7
three of them there to sign.
I went out in the bullpen.
i 8
The person that had done the inspection was not there, so 9
I went on and signed that person's nane without dating and 10 l
initialing.it.
And in the meantime I can't remember what 11 happened, either a phone call.
They went through the systen.
12 So they were found at a later date, and the l
13 people there at Fermi, what the call a SAFETEAM, special l
34 investigators, called ne over and, like I told you, I was s
scared and I told them I lie.
I didn't want to hurt Comstock 15 g
and myself, and then I couldn't do it.
I went back and told them the truth.
And that's the way it is now.
17 18 Q
Let's talk specifically about these particular records.
First of all, the inspector was 39 20
.. ~ ~......:.
A.
Ye s.,, _ ;,,
21 y
O had performed the inspections?
22 A
Yes.
73 Q
And these records needed to be turned over?
p A
s.
l 25 l
APEX Reporting Registered Professonal Reporters P.O. Bor 3 Boston, Massachusats 02112
22 1
0 Do you know if there were rejectable itens on 2
these records?
3 A
I don't think there could have been if I went 4
and signed them, because I signed them on the right I'm 5
pretty sure.
That whole folder, if I'm not mistaken, was 6
accepted.
I can't remember exactly, but I'm pretty sure it 7
was.
8 0
I hand you a copy of two of these check liscs.
9 I'll show them to you.
l'aybe you can recall f rer. the chech 10 lists -- this is conduit inspection check list CSC-02G.
33 Could you take a look at that Comstock check list?
That's one of the documents you're referring 12 to?
13 A
Okay, this is what we were talking about 34 earlier.
The inspection complete, CLKC punch list T2100 15 CSC-001.
16 That is what made that document complete, g
37 I
0 This is a cover sheet that was used for l
18 turnover only.
Is that correct?
39 A
This is an attachment.
Yes, this was -- I'n g
pretty sure it was.
The only reason ve used it was for the i
21 turnover.
22 Here is tne first inspection.
Things ena..vod g
l three or four times.
Here is the same rev. up here of this g
I same one.
This is the one that ran into the salley area.
g i
l l
APEX Reporting Reginered Professional Reponers P.O. Box 3 Bonon. Messachuunts 02112 i
23 1
It was done by Imd here is the one, rev. E on 2
the sane one that was inspected down to here.
3 0
In the queenie area?
4 A
Yes.
This is the same one that this one was.
The s'me conduit?
5 O
a 6
7 Yes, sir.
7 This part here was actually just for turnover 8
purposes.
This one here is for the conduit hancar.
That's 9
when we went to turn them over.
This is what this statenent 10 meant here, for the punch list items.
So this was just for n
the turnover of the conduit itself.
12 O
This was to be punched list because there was 13 a rejectable item that someone hadn't located?
(
ja A
Yes, sir.
0 I
y u know what the rejectable item was?
15 A
Supports and pull bosses had been QC accepted, 16 as a reject. CSC-028-1.
That's FSR CRE 1041 on that support j7 there.
This was this support right here, 021.
18 O
So the conduit support was rejected for some y9 reason?
7
- n A
Yes, sir.
21 Q
And there's a DDR written on that support?
22 A
support would have to be reins acted FSCR 3626.
e 23 Inspected 2327, DDRE 10910.
Right.
See conduit check list f r punch list.
So that iten was turned over on this punch 5
APEX Reporting Regiwed Professional Reynters P.O. Box 3 Boson, MassacAusects 02112
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.y...
f
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list item here supposedly.
2 O
So this is the type of document that was broucht r
3 in to you in packets, inspection check list packages were 4
brought in to you and you had to put this cover sheet on it 5
for turnover?
A Mo, the cover sheet was put on by the writer 6
7 with the turnover group that was in charge of this. In other 8
words, they would get all the punch list itens and everythino 9
and go through all of the conduit in the hangars, and they 10 would put this statement on there.
It O
Who was in the punch list croup if you know?
12 They were people from Comstock?
13 A
Yes.
14 0
And obviously this was one of then?
A No, was one of our inspectors.
was an 15 16 inspector, worked over there for a little while, then wanted to come back to inspection.
h was there for -- I p
l l
18 don't know how long.
O S
the people in this aroup there preparino these 19 packages for turnover would fill out this cover check list 20 and put this---
21
- r
- ~u g A
Asterisk down there for---
l 7.y c
Q Statement that it was for inspection, Comstoex's 23 inspection was completed?
And then they'd sign off and you 24 signed ff n it?
25 APEX Reporting Regiwed Professional Reponers P.O. Bor 3 Boston Masrachusats 02112
25 1
A Yes.
2 0
Even though they weren't necessarily with the 3
people who conducted the inspection?
4 A
Yes, sir.
They were sioning off the locistics 5
of that item on the bcttom, saying that this is turned over 6
with this punch list.
That top patt is not really the 7
inspection itself.
It should be attached like that.
Saying I
8 what was rejectable, what was a DDR, NCR nunber on it.
9 Q
I guess the question that's benging to be asked 10 is why couldn't you have had or someone else sign gj that inspection check list?
3ecause h was the one that signed the original 12 A
wasn't g 13 ja Q
Uhy couldn't g have had any OC inspector sign i
that?
Why did you put name on there?
15 A
I don't know why it was really, whether that was 16 area or what it was.
It was for some reason.
I cannot 37 l
i remember right now.
And that is the truth.
18 0
worked in queenie area?
39
.A_,
Y s,.
Whether M had.the whole queenie check 2
20 list or not, I couldn't remember exactly, 21 i
0 Do you know if E was on~the site that day?
22 Oh, yes, h was on the site Rat day.
23 0
Why didn't you have k sign that?
24 25 sam, I was probably pushed, and I just---
A l
l l
APEX Reporting Regisered Professional Reponers P.O. Box 3 Boson, Massachusms 02112
l 26 3
O Could you have had another DC inspector sien the document instead of 2
A 3
N t really.
There was some reason why_
this was either area.
I cannot remember exactly.
I'm sure I j
an't.
I'd sure tell you if I knew, why it was, but for 5
some reason it was.
6 7
The reason that you put O
nave en that document?
8 A
I do not remember.
Whether M had that area 9
or it was in that area, I cannot remember.
?'aybe it was because made that final inspection with g initials he re for supports.
I don't know, sir.
I really don't.
If I 12 would remember I'd surely tell you, because I know I don't want to cet out of nothing.
14 I was wrone when I done what I done, but I can't remember the reason.
15 0
You put name on these three documents---
16 I
A If. ean remember, it was all cueenie too.
17 Weren't they all CSC conduits?
18 O
I believe so.
19 A
Like I said, there was some reason but I can't 20 remember offha.nd.
f.
22 Q
If that's the case then if you put' 23 name on the documents because worked in the queenie area 24 could you have done that with other inspectors that had othe r 25 areas?
s
' APEX Reporting Reginered Professional Reporters P.O. Box 3 Boxon. Massachusats 02112
r 27 1
A No, sir, these were the only three that I'd ever 2
done that one.
I cannot, for the life of me, know why I did 3
it now.
I have never, up to this time, signed anybody else's 4
name.
Never.
5 0
Is it possible that these particular docunents 6
were the only documents that were not signed of f for the whol e 7
package to be turned over?
8 A
Yes, that's what I said.
There was three of 9
them in that package that wasn't.
10 Q
So there were a large number of docunents in jg this package that could be turned over as soon as those last 12 three were signed?
A Yes.
33 I
y, Q
Apparently you felt that---
A If I can remenber, I don't think there's that 15 16 many CSC conduits in queenie.
I don't know.
I cannot remember. If I could I would.
37 18 0
You said this is the first time, and the only 19 time, you had put someone else's name on an inspection 20 document.
One can assum'$'thet there was unusual pressure to 21 get these documents turned ~over? '
,. 7 22 A
There was pressure to get then to be turned over 23 Yes.
24 0
Did you tell that you'd put $ name 25 on three documents?
APEX Reporting Ressered Professional Reponers P.O. Box 3 Bonon, Massachuurts 02112
28 1
A No.
Not to say it went on and slipped my mind, 2
because I done it before all that investigation and everythin e.
3 Because after we went on through the process and turned over 4
the bulk.
5 Q
I'm trying to understand your motivation for 6
doing this.
You knew it was not an acceptable practice.
7 You knew you had many years in the nuclear business inspection, 8
and you dealt with pressure before.
Why in this instance?
9 A
I don't know.
That's what I said.
I do not 10 know why I done it.
I really shouldn't have done it, but ij I don't know why not.
12 Q
Did you feel threatened in some way either by 13 1 ss of job or position?
A No.
Like I said, I was trying to meet the 34 schedule, you know.
There was so much to be turned over, to 15 g
do, and I was trying to get it done.
O So if I went through the Comstock inspection 37 18 check lists of the signatures I wouldn't find any other falsifications?
39 I
20~
A.
N, sir.
Not by myself yod won't.
No..
As a matter of fact, I think after they had the investigation g
I think QA went through I don't know how many percents of our g
re ords and done an aucit.
23 Q.
Quite frankly, my concern, the purpose I'm here g
f r, is n t to get you to admit anything as far as falsificat ior 25 h
APEX Reporting Reginered Professional Reponers P.O. Box 3 Bonon, Massachsants 02112
I 2D 1
A I understand that.
2 O
It's to find out why you did it, if there was 3
that extreme pressure from Edison or whomever, did other 4
people experience the sane pressure, people that worked for 5
you.
7.nd because of that pressure were they out there doinn shoddy inspections so they could get things turned over?
6 7
Well, we were all pushed to get the job done.
A I cannot say that.
Of all the people working for me, I had 8
9 enough respect for all the people that if they gave ne a check list it was right.
And I know that everybody was g
under -- we had a place to meet and everything, and how many g
conduits they wanted this week.
We was all under pressure, yes.
To get the job done.
g i
O Did you have a cuota to neet?
4 7.
Yes, sir.
'" hey had it wrote down like per month footage and per week footage, and how nuch nonth footage we turned in.
Q You had that broken down by inspector, how many inspections each inspector had to perform?
In a day or week?
A I can't remember exactly right now.
I think we 20 did.
21 g
22 O
You think' you d'id?
1 2~
r 23 A
Yes.
I think we did.
I'n not sure.
24 I'm pretty sure we did.
25 0
It's probable that the inspectors had a certain APEX Reporting Regisered Professional Reporters P.O. Box 3
,i,,. Boson, Massachusses 02112 i
30 1
number of inspections that they had to perform on a schedule?
2 A
Inspections or footage per inspector, if I'm not 3
mistaken.
4 0
What happened if they didn't meet their quota?
5 A
Nothing that I know of.
In which way?
6 0
Were they fired?
Laid of f ?
Someone else broucht 7
in to do the job?
8 A
No, when we had to go back to do our re-inspection 9
that's when they sent a lot of Comstock people down from 10 Midland to pitch in and help us.
That's when the big push jj was on to get everything re-inspected to the new QA pronram.
12 O
Did the new people at constock brought in from Midland, did they receive the same training that the original 13 Fermi inspectors received?
yg A
'ihat do you mean, type of inspectionwise?
15 0
Type of inspection trainino.
16 A
Well, we had a regular training school. If I'm 37 n t mistaken, the way we did it when we came in, we would 18 put a couple of the Midland inspectors with one of Constock 39 inspectors for a couple of_ week period.
I'm prettv sure that 20 is the way we done it.
It was documented I'm pretty sure.
g O
They were all Comstock inspectors, but sone were at Ferni and some were flom Midland?
23 A
Yes.
And, of course, every nuclear site had g
different procedures.
So the ones that cane from !'.idland --
5 APEX Reporting Resisered Professional Reponm P.O. Box 3 Boson, Massachusness 02112
31 1
I'm pretty sure that's the way we did it.
2 Q
The people from Fidland were already qualified or 3
certified to certain levels?
4 A
Yes, sir.
5 Q
For inspection?
6 A
Yes, sir.
Post of them were certified in 7
conduit also.
i 8
O So they didn't have to receive any certifications?
9 A
.Just the Fermi way of inspecting them.
That's 10 why I'm pretty sure what we done was send a couple with our ij people for a week or two weeks at a time to learn our 12 system and our procedures.
I think I said I thought it was 4
i 13 document, but I can't say for sure whether it was or not.
l j,
Q So these people were brought in specificallv 15 to get the records drawn up?
16 A
No, sir. Specifically to get the bulk of the 17 conduit re-inspected.
They had the re-inspection procram 18 that that latest one, or the one before that, was revised, 19 that was to be, so Detroit Edison were to go back to 100 20 percent re-inspection of the conduit that had already been 21 inspected.
That's when we brought all that help from 22
_ Midland.
- ic
- r.., n ; u,:
- w l
23 Q
Did you have the authority to terminate 24 inspectors?
25 A
I was told when we had to reduce and all that.
APEX Reporting Resisered Professonal Reponers P.O. Box 3 Bonen, Massachuants 02112
.._....._.,.;....y...
s tJ N-
.,n.
e
L 32 1
You mean fire them on the spot?
2 Q
Or layoff.
3 A
Mo, the layoff was sent down fron_
4 above.
I had the authority to fire soneone on the spot if 5
they were doinc something wrong.
But the way our system went y u'd give them three warnings, and that would be put in thei:-
6 file.
And if they did it a fourth time you had the option to 7
do what you want.
8 But when it came time for layoffs they would 9
usually tell me.
I had my input of is he doino his job, or g
is she doing her job, or whatever.
33 O
W uld it be accurate to say that the first peopl e 12 that got laid off from the Fermi project were the ones that 13 didn't meet their inspection ouotas?
j, A
No.
The first ones that were laid off was most of them from Midland that had come down.
You know, they were g
going to be laid off from Midland anyway.
And they came down p
to help us.
They were the first ones to go.
Yes, I'm pretty 18 sure it was.
With Fermi people, you know, they were the next to go.
O What impact do you think this pressure fron Edison to meet schedules h6d en the overall Constock performance?
A well, probably to make a few mistakes, like I did.
APEX Reporting Reginered Professional Reporters P.O. Box 3 Boson, Massachuseus 02112
j 33 i
Q You mean documentation?
I'm not sure of 2
inspections?
Or both?
3 A
Y u know, any time you cruestion your first 4
target down there, you make a mistake.
I've seen then.
if you find out about a mistake and go ahead and cure it, But 3
I don't see that there is any problem.
Anybody can make nistakes.
~
~
7 Q
Did you ever tell anyone at Edison that the schedules were unrealistic?
9 A
It seemed to me I think I did.
10 0
Do you remember who?
A Mo.
I think, if I ain't mistaken, that was one meeting we had when 14r.
was down the.9, I think.
I can't renenber.
I really can't.
But I know I told hin.
I told him we were all pushed hard.
15 16 0
Who was your contact at Detroit rdison?
17 A
In QA?
That's who I reported to.
It was a tall s
18 fellow with a
~ And
[washisassistant.
4 19 was the one we mostly went to when we had problens and we 20 had the OA to help us.
I can't remember.his nane.
23 He,was a contractor for -- we had.,the,AE at the time.
22,
Q Bechtel?
.ee...
23 A
Daniels.
This worked.for Daniels.
At 24 least at Detroit Edison.
23 0
So the pressure you people were experiencinn was APEX Reporting Regiitered Professional Reponers
- P.O. Box 3 Boson,* Massachuutts 02112
,..; :.....:....J3..
34 1
from Edison QA?
l A
Mell, not really.
You know, it was more or less 2
3 higher up.
I used to have to get into the big meetings over 4
at Fermi I.
That's where we used to have to report.
How much 3
sleep we've had, how much we've got and going to get.
6 Op was actually trying to help us, because they 7
were told when we hadn't reached this new inspection check I
8 list, they had to write the procedure.
They were trying to 9
work with us the best way they could, you know.
But I guess 10 the way it cane down was they wanted everything changed to 100% which it was.
And some of the inspection sheets back 11 there, you'll see three to four inspections plans attached 12 to each of then.
They inspected it the first time, and they 13 had to go back for it again.
And finally when it got to j,
s ne was m re r
ess set down.
15 I
There were QA I cannot remember his y,
last name or the ame, but when they had to 37 change to be made they wrote it up the way Detroit Edison 18 wanted it, their inspections.
Communicate as best as possible.-
Q You saw one person from the entire Edison l
21 g
office that was responsible for the' pressure that you were receiving to get the records turned over?
A Right.
Like that one person doesn't make the schedule.
Detroit Edison itself, this is what they want and g
l APEX Reporting Reginered Professional Reporters P.O. & r 3 I
t.
D 35 1
they have to have, you know, to meet the denobilization 2
schedule.
Just regular weekly neetings you've got to ao to 3
as well.
4 Q
Mhat department were these for the demobilization?
5 A
Detro'it Edison?
6 0
Yes.
7 A
I guess management.
I didn't get into that.
8 I had meetings with Comstock, and whoever made it.
9 O
Mhen you would go to a meeting and you got to jo report on how much footage you would expect, who would be n
chairing that neeting?
Uho would be the person at the neeting?
12
]lllsonething.
I A
Can't renenber names.
13 can't remember his name.
He was a tall fellow.
I can't
- 4 remember names.
Of course, there'd be QA departnent there, 15 16 us, I guess they held meetings for Bechtel and they held meetings with Constock.
j7 0
Well, if y u went to a meeting and you hadn't 18 met a quota for that particular week or day or whatever --
39 were they daily meetings or weekly meetings?
20 A
Weekly I'm pretty sure it was.
I can't 21 remember.
22 Q
What was said if you didn't meet the qucts?
23 A
They just said: "You want more men or more 24 vertine to make your quota?"
25 APEX Reporting Resismd Professional Reporters P.O. Em 3 Boson, Massachuseus 02112
. y;....,
36 1
O Uhat would your response be?
2 A
Well, we had all the people I could handle.
I 3
guess it would be more overtime.
4 Q
Uas it that easy-going? 13as it agreed at the 5
meeting, or was there finger-pointing, where you, Comstock, 6
better start meeting these quotas?
That sort of thino?
7 A
Not really that bad.
No.
Not those type of 8
meetings.
You know, "this is the schedule to meet" and 9
stuff like that.
None of this beating on the desk.
Very 10 few of them meetings.
They were not the type of meetinos I n
went to.
I would talk to people higher up, that type of 12 meeting.
We had a schedule and we told them how much we 13 did, how many footace we made this week and last week, and the last month, and whatever.
And have it set up.
34 0
The only thing I'd like to try to understand 15 now from this particular meeting is that it's my impression g
and understanding that you really can't put your finger on 37 why the records, the few records we've identified as being i
18 falsified, were falsified?
39
^
20 O
Other than some production pressure from Detroit 21 bdison?
22 A
Uh huh.
Put it this way, it wasn't me that 23 signed it.
I mean, I signed it. You know what I'm sayino?
O Yes.
But is it correct that other than the i
I APEX Reporting Resisered Professional Reporters P.O. Box 3 Boson, Massachusars 02112
{....
37 1
Detroit Edison production pressure there was not a notive for 2
signing these documents?
3 A
No, sir.
17 ell, I can ' t answer that.
I'm not 4
putting the blame on anybody.
I'm not saying it was Detroit 5
Edison's pressure, you know.
There's always pressure, and 6
there was a lot there, but I'm not blaming it on them.
7 MR. KALKMAN:
Mr.
have I or any 8
other NRC representative here threatened you in any manner, 9
or offered you any rewards in return for this?
10 THE WITNESS:
No, sir.
jj MR. KALKMAN:
Have you made the statement really y luntarily?
12 j3 TEE FITNESS:
Yes, sir, and I wish I could give i
j, you more.
If I could remember the stuff I would, but I sure can't.
j3 MR. KALKMAN:
Is there anything you'd care to 16 add for the record?
37 THE UITNESS:
No, just like I told you, I don't 18 know why I did it.
39 MR. KALKMAN:
That's all.
20 (Whereupon, the hearing in the above captioned g
matter was closed at 1:00 PM).
g 23 24 25 APEX Reporting Reginered Professional Repor:ers P.O. Box 3 Boson, Massachusetts 02112
l l
CERTIFICATE OF OFFICIAL REPORTER NO PAGE NO, 38 This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the
~~NITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION in the matter of:
NAME OF PROCEEDING:
INVESTIGATIVE INTERVIEW (CLOSED MEETING) i DOCKET NO.:
NONE
' PLACE:
PLYMOUTH, MA DATE:
TUESDAY, MARCH 12, 1985 wero held as herein appears, and that this is the original t anscript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
l
~
(Sigt).
//6 r
/
l (TYPED)"/ / JANET HILLS l
Official Reporter Reporter's Affiliation 1
i i
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