ML20140D812
| ML20140D812 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Harris  |
| Issue date: | 12/17/1984 |
| From: | Atomic Safety and Licensing Board Panel |
| To: | |
| References | |
| CON-#484-746 OL, NUDOCS 8412190211 | |
| Download: ML20140D812 (68) | |
Text
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O&GWR UN1TED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION O - - _ . - _ _ . . . . . . _ _ . - _ . _ _ .
IN THE MA' ITER OF: DOCKET NO: 50-400-OL 50-401-OL CAROLINA POWER & LIGHT COMPANY and NORTH CAROLINA EASTERN MUNICIPAL POWER AGENCY (Shearon Harris Nuclear Power Plant, Units 1 and 2)
LOCATION: NASHINGTON, D. C. PAGES: 7409 - 7447 DATE. MONDAY, DECEMBER 17, 1984 h 0',i vm'
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ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
OW W 444 North CapitolStreet B4 Washington, D.C. 20001 g2gg211es osob$bo goa (202n4m00 I NATIONWIDE COVERACE
CR21436.0 7409 AGB/sjg i UNITED. STATES OF AMERICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
- 3 BEFORE THE ATOMIC SAFETY AND LICENSING BOARD
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _x 4
In the Matter of: :
5 :
CAROLINA. POWER & LIGHT COMPANY and :
6 NORTH CAROLINA EASTERN MUNICIPAL :
POWER AGENCY : Docket Nos. 50-400-OL
- 50-401-OL 7
(Shearon Harris Nuclear Power :
~ Plant, Units 1 and 2) :
8 :
--- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x 9
4 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.
10 444 North Capitol Street, N.E.
Suite 402 jj Washington, D. C.
Monday, December 17, 1984 s., The telephone conference in the above-entitled matter convened at 1:30 p.m.
14 BEFORE:
15 JAMES L. KELLEY, Chairman Atomic Safety and Licensing Board-
$ JAMES H. CARPENTER, Member 17 Atomic Safety and. Licensing Board 18 GLENN O. BRIGHT, Member Atomic Safety and Licensing Board
'19 APPEARANCES:
20 On behalf of the Applicants:
SAMANTHA F. FLYNh, ESQ.
21
/v Carolina Power & Light Company 1., 22 P. O. Box 1551 Raleigh, North Carolina 23 JOHN H. O'NEILL, ESQ.
Shaw, Pittman, Potts & Trowbridge 34 1800 M Street, N.W.
" " " * * * ' * - Washington, D. C. 20036
~25
-- continued --
7410 1 APPEARANCES (Continued):
1 2
On behalf of the Nuclear Regulatory 3
Commission Staff:
MRS. JANICE MOORE, ESQ.
4 Office of Executive Legal Director Nuclear Regulatory Commission 5 washington, D. C.
6 WELLS EDDLEMAN, Pro Se t -
718-A Iredell Street. ;
7 Durham, North Carolina 27705 8
9 ,
10 11 12
( 13 14 15 ;.
16 17 1
18 19
. 20 i - 21 22 23 24 4 Ams-Feder'J Reporters, Inc.
1 25 4
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4360 00 01 7411-AGBagb 1 CONTENTS
! 2 WITNESS EXAtt -
f'T O
, 3 Dennis Kubicki 1
4 BY MR. EDDLEMAN 7417 5 BY JUDGE KELLEY 7429 4
6 BY F1R. EDDLEMAN: 7430 4 7
- 8 I
! 9
- j. 10 ,
j i 11 12 EX11IBITS IDENTIFIED S 13 Eddleman Exhibit 61 - r (d
14 11/0/04 Zimmerman letter to Denton 7421 15 Staff Exhibit 7- '
16 Mascentonio et al. affidavit 7432 1 17 Staff Exhibit 8 -
18 Kubicki-Eberly affidavit 7433 i
i 19 l
i 20 '
i 1
21 i 22
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. 24 t
l 25 i
d 4360 01 01.-
7412 n ~ 1'-AGBagb 1 -- P-R~O C E E D I N G S 2 JUDGE KELLEY: . Good af ternoon. We have three or
- . 3 four matters that we want to take up. The - fi rst . couple are-
.5 4 two different affidavits that Staff offered at the hearing, 5- I believe one of them might have been shortly thereaf teri in G any case, Mrs. Moore reminded us last week that we hadn't 7 - made a square ruling on two affidavits, one from s
4 8 Messrs. Eberly and Kubicki concerning fire doors as they 9 relate to Contention 116 and the second one was an
?
10 affidavit, I believe, from Mr. Mascentonio and others. Tras 11 there more than one person there, Mrs. Moore? ,
12 MRS. MOORE: Yes, your Honor, there were two ,
13 other individuals on the affidavit.
2 14 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. ,
j 15 Just for identification purposes that ought'to be 16 sufficient. Anyway it is an affidavit about the ITT Barton 17 transmitters and just briefly, as to the second one,. the 18 second one first, at-transcript 5770 and 71 Mrs. Moore had 19 offered that a f fidavi t and to paraphrase Mr. Eddl eman -- and 20 i f that doesn' t square with your recollection, Mr. Eddleman 21 -- you were willing to waive cross on that but.you.were not 22 stipulating any agreement necessarily with what it might 23 say.
~
f24 MR. EDDLEMAN: That's correct.
25 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay.
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4360 01'02- .7413 1 AGBagb~ 1 And as I. understand it I don't.believe the
. '2 Applicants had any objection to the admission of that.
3 af fidavit , did they, Mr. O'Neill? .
.i f 4 MR. O'NEILL: That i s correct, we did not object 5 .to.that affidavit being admitted into evidence.
l- 6 . JUDGE KELLEY: Okay.
7 So I think we can just rule on that and say'that l
8 'the Mascentonio et al. affidavit on Contention 9, the ITT 9 Barton transmitters, is admitted on the understanding, of
- 10 course, that Mr. Eddleman is not stipulating an agreement 11 with it, he is just in effect waiving his right to cross on i'
12 it.
13 Moving then to the one I mentioned 'first, .the 4
14 affidavit about Contention 116 from Eberly and.Kubicki, that
} :s- p/ 15 was' discussed in the transcript at pages 6908 through 6913 16 and Mr. Eddlemaa objected to the unqualified admission of 17 the affidavit as it then stood, he had a number of questions.
18 that he wanted answered about i t -- maybe . I can just'get the 19 flavor across~and also be accurate by quoting, let me quote 20 a few lines from 6909 and 6910 as follows:
21 This is Mr. Eddleman speaking and he says:
- l. 22 "I have been supplied-with a copy of
' 23 the af fidavit and I would object to its'being
< 6
! 24 admitted unless-the yield point of the steel 25 used in these fire' doors and the temperature at e
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?43GO 01 03 7414' 1 AGBagb 1 which that yield point would normally be 4
2 reached and afdefinition,-for. example, in Dtu's 3 per square. feet or a. definition stating that
- /'k the ASTM E-119 curve (.n combustible' loading
-( ,j 4 5 determined signi ficant' fire exposure to ' cauae
]
6- 'the door to yield and I also think that the- -
7 - a f fidavi t should state the assumptions, for- t 8 ' example, whether the assumption about the fire 9 brigade arriving to deal with the problem is i
. 10' part of the analysis or what other assumptions-11 there are; whether.the door itself would
(
-12 actually stand up to a fire in adjacent areas 13 or area for three hours that the ratings
.. -14 require."
/"N
'( / 15 And I don't think my inflection throughout there -
16 was accurate and if I distorted meaning I apologize.but'I 17 want to get across the thrust of questions at least that 18 Mr. Eddleman raised at'that time.
19 And then in response.to this concern-the Board
[
~
. 20 suggested something which is essentially what we're going to
, 21 do today and I'll just read, to provide the' context, from '
i.
L 22 '6912 starting at line 12, and this is myself' speaking:
23 " Suppose we were on a telephone
' 24 conference:irl the near future and one of the two
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- l peopl e here -- one 'is gone, I understand -- but i:
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4360 01 04 7415 1 AGBagb 1 the other one gets on the phone and he has read 2 over the transcript and he knows what you're 3 interested in and he provides that information-
[v ') 4 then you ask him a few questions and that is 5 transcript material that is in, would that 6 satisfy you? Do you think that would satisfy 7 your concerns?"
8 "Mr. Eddleman: Sure, as long as I 9 get a copy of the phone transcript a few days 10 at least in advance of when the proposed 11 findings were due."
12 So what we had in mind this afternoon was to 13 simply follow through on that procedure that we sketched 14 briefly there.
(~/ 15 Let me mention that Mr. Eddleman I expect we would have 16 a transcript of this tomorrow and I'll send you one 17 quick-mail, that's about the best I can do, but you should 18 at least have it by towards the end of the week.
19 MR. EDDLEMAN: That's fi ne , Judge.
20 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay.
l 21 And as we see it we're on the record now, we have 22 a Court Reporter, we're going to get some answers to some o f 23 Mr. Eddleman's questions. I hope, just in the interest of 24 complicity, that we can keep the questions fairly brief and
(~.
1
(_) 25 that we can keep objections out or brief so it just goes i
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~
4360 01 05 7416 1 AGBagb 1 simpler all the way around, but we'rc in a hearing format as 2 a practical matter and Mr. Eddleman will be cross-examining 3 --
the name of the witness is, Mrs. Moore?
(w +) 4 MRS. MOORE: Mr. Dennis Kubicki, your Honor, 5 JUDGE KELLEY: Mr. Dennis Kubicki.
6 Have you been in the case as a witness before, 7 Mr. Kubicki?
8 MR. KUBICKI: No , I have not.
9 JUDGE KELLEY: I think I better swear you then.
10 Could you raise your right hand, please?
11 MR. KUBICKI: I have it raised.
12 Uhereupon, 13 DENNIS KUBICKI 14 was called as a witness and, having first been duly sworn,
! 15
%- was examined and testi fied as follows.
16 JUDGE KELLEY: Mr. Eddleman, can you just give me 17 an idea how long you think this might take?
18 MR. EDDLEMAN: Not too awful long, Judge, all of 19 my questions fit on one sheet of paper.
20 JUDGE KELLEY: S i ng l e- spa ce d ?
21 MR. EDDLEMAN: Yes, sir, but i: is not a normal 22 full-si zed sheet .
23 JUDGE KELLEY: Go ahead. We'll see how it goes, 24 go ahead.
/ \
( ,1
_ 25 MRS. MOORE: Your Honor, before we start, I think
. . - - ~ - _ _ _ - . . - _ - -
4360 01f06' 7417
-1: ACDagb 1 it is necessary for us to make one correction-to the
[ ,
2 affidavit.
3 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay.
4 MRS. MOORE: That correct is in paragraph four of
. (_f
~
i 5 the-affidavit -- well perhaps I had better let Mr. Kubicki I think that would beLthe
~
6 make the pertinent correction.
7 botter way to handle this.
.O THE WITNESS: As Mrs. Moore mentioned, it is in d
-9 paragraph four, the sentence refers to the number of doors 10 which are interior and exterior. The sentence reads:
11 " Presently, of these, 7. areas
. , 12 involve interior doors and 13 areas involve-13 openings to the outside.of the plant."
14 It should read:
.(_r). -
^
15 "...of these, 8 areas involve 16 interior doors and 12 areas involve openings
- 17- to the outside of the plant."
18 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. Thank you.
19 MRS. MOORE: There are no further questions, your 20 Honor. "
- i. ~ 21 ' JUDGE KELLEY: Fine.
22- MR. EDDLEMAN: This is Wells-Eddleman.
. 23 C1'OSS-EXAMINATION 24 BY MR. EDDLEMAN:
25 O Mr. Kubicki, is there a list of thoseLdoors in l-
4360 01 07 7418 1 AGBagb 1 the affidavit?
2 A No, sir, there is not.
3 O Okay.
3 4 Are they listed in your analysis that I believe
( j 5 . was transmitted to the parties?
6 A No, sir, they are not.
7 O Do you know i f there was a list of those doors in 8 the Applicants' October 10th, 1984 submission which I 9 believe deals with the fire doors that had been tested?
10 A Yes, sir, they were.
11 O Okay.
12 You don't happen to have a copy of that there 13 with you, do you?
14 A I do.
-s f
(. 15 O Can you tell me where those doors are listed, 16 what table or page?
17 A Yes, I can if you will bear with me for just one 18 moment.
19 O Ce rt a i nl y.
20 (Pause.)
21 A It 's on page one of five and enclosure one and it 22 is also on page two, three, four and five of five in that 23 same enclosure.
24 O Okay.
([ 25 A Now I might add, however, that this represents a
F'.
4360 7419 1 comprehensive list of fire doors. The four that are not 2 fire-rated are highlighted in -- well they're highlighted in 3 the November 8, 1984 submittal.
4 O All right.
[ >'
5 MR. EDDLEMAN: Now let me ask, do the Applicants 6 or the Staff have any objection to admitting that November 7 8th, '84 submittal into the record?
8 MR. O 'NEILL: Judge Kelley, this is Mr. O'Neill.
9 JUDGE KELLEY: Right.
10 MR. O 'NEILL: We certainly have no objection to 11 having the November 8, 1984 letter from Mr. S.R. Zimmerman 12 to Mr. Denton which encloses an attachment regarding SER 13 Open Item 8 including tables that identify each of these 14 doors as an exhibit. Once again it has never been
/^'
(_)s 15 completely clear to us the relevance to this contention but 16 it i s our piece of paper, we stand by it.
17 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay.
18 Is that something that has already been served on 19 the parties?
20 MR. O'NEILL: Yes, sir, it was served to the 21 service list as all licensing documents regarding this 22 docket.
23 JUDGE KELLEY: The Zimmerman letters normally get 24 circulated, as I recall.
(_) 25 Okay. So you have no objection.
--- ---n , , . . . , - - - ,.
a a
4360 7420 1 How about Staff?
2 MRS. MOORE: The Staff has no objections, your 3 Honor.
( ,) 4 I need to ask a question though: I believe there
(_-
5 were some drawings attached to that letter and I was 6 wondering, we're not admitting those, are we?
7 MR. EDDLEMAN: I believe my copy had a set of 0 reduced si ze -- you know, not big blueprints but a set of 9 reduced size drawings attached and I would want to ask that 10 those, you know, normal sheet of paper or double sheet of 11 paper sized drawings be admitted in the record.
12 JUDGE KELLEY: What kind of sheer bulk are we 13 talking about? Are we talking about 10 pages or what, 14 including the drawings?
x_/ 15 MR. EDDLEMAN: I think it's about 20, subject to 16 check.
17 JUDGE KELLEY: An estimate is all we really need.
10 MRS. MOORE: Staff has no objection, your lionor, i
19 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. Granted.
20 MR. EDDLEMAN: Okay. Let's call that Eddleman 21 61, I think that's the next number I've got if I remember my 22 transcript correctly.
23 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. Eddleman 61.
24 The date is the November 8th submission, e-(S) 25 correct ?
f
4360 7421 1 MR. EDDLEMAN: Yes, sir.
2 Now I don't know exactly what my obligation is, 3 am I supposed to give the Reporter a copy?
4 JUDGE KELLEY: Yes, eventually you should. All f~h
(_) 5 of the parties have been served, you don't have to serve 6 again.
7 MRS. IOORE: Your !!onor, I believe the 8 requirement is three copies to the Court Reporter.
9 MR. EDDLE!!AN: Well what I'm wondering is if it 10 would be easier for the Staf f to just give them the copy up 11 there.
12 JUDGE KELLEY: Hell that's between you and the 13 Staff.
14 MR. EDDLEMAli: Okay. Well we'll try to talk 15 about this informally.
O 16 JUDGE KELLEY: Then the Reporter should get the 17 normal three copies. If you can arrange something with the 10 Staff, we don't care.
19 !!R . EDDLE!!AM: Okay. Fine. Thank you.
20 (Whereupon, 11/8/84 Zimmerman 21 letter to Denton was marked 22 as Eddleman Exhibit 61 23 for identification.)
24 DY !!R. EDDLEMAN:
_ 25 O Mr. Kubicki.
%-)
o 4360 7422 A Yes, sir.
2 O The dimensions of those doors that'are steel 3 doors that are treated in your a f fidavit, are they set forth
() 4 in the attachments to this November 8, 1984 submittal?
5 A Not completely, no.
6 O Okay.
7 What dimensions are missing?
8 A Well there are certain dimensions for certain 9 doors that are missing.
10 0 Okay.
11 But in fact the thickness and the height and 12 width of the door is typically in that, is it not?
13 A That's correct.
-~
14 O Okay.
i/
m 15 And if I wanted to figure out how many cubic feet 16 of steel are in those things I could simply multiply height 17 by width by thickness and get it, could I not?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 0 Okay.
20 What is the yield point of the steel -- Well let 21 me ask you this first:
22 Are all of these doors made out of the same kind 23 of steel, to vour knowledge?
24 A No, they're not.
tN
(_) 25 O Okay. What kinds of steel are used in them?
/
4360 7423 1 A All right. Maybe I misinterpreted your 2 question. The doors are not configured similarly.
l 3 0 Okay.
f-s 4 What I'm asking is what kind of steel alloys, is
(_)
5 it all mild steel or some of it certain alloys?
6 A I really can't answer that question, I'm sorry.
7 0 Okay.
O A As far as I know they are all the same type of 9 steel, however.
10 0 Did you investigate the type of steel in the 11 doors as to its properties, particularly yield point with 12 rising temperature?
13 A No, as far as the Staff procedures in terms of 14 evaluating steel as it relates to fire protection in a
(')T
\_ 15 nuclear power plant, we consistently use 1100 degrees 16 Fahrenheit as the yield point.
17 O Okay.
18 So you assume that any steel five door will have 19 a yield point around 1100 degrees Fahrenheit, is that right?
20 A As well as steel structural members that are not 21 protected by fireproofing, yes.
22 O Okay.
23 These doors are not protected by other 24 fireproofing, are they?
A
(_) 25 A That's correct, they're not.
4360 7424 1 O Okay.
2 Now do you use the E-119 ASTM time-temperature 3 curve for figuring what temperature those doors will be
() 4 heated to in a fire?
5 A Ue did not know.
6 0 What determination -- or how did you assess what 7 temperature the door would reach in a fire for these fire 8 doors?
9 A Well first of all you have to understand that we 10 didn't determine the precise temperature that the doors 11 would reach when subjected to the type of fire that wo 12 postulate will occur in these individual areas.
13 Uhat we did, however, do was to consider the 14 configuration of the door itself, the location of the door n
(_) 15 in relationship to the ceiling, the location of the door in 16 relationship to outside areas, the type and quantity and 17 configuration of combustible materials and the presence of 18 fire protection mitigation features.
19 0 Okay.
20 nell let me ask you: the ntu per square foot of 21 the fire area near those fire doors are in the PSAR, are 22 they not?
23 A Yes.
24 O Okay. So I could get that information there.
rm
(_) 25 And in your analysis of fires generally in
4360 7425 1 nuclear power plants, that is, a fire that you assume, you 2 do use the ASTM E-119 time-temperature curve, do you not?
3 A We use the ASTil E-119 time-temperature curve to
^h
[J 4 qualify certain fire rated assemblies, such as fire rated S doors, floor-ceiling assemblies, walls, et cetera.
6 0 okay.
7 When you say floor ceiling, is that s-e-a-1, 8 seal, or is it ceiling as i n e- e- i i- n-g ?
9 A It is ceiling but however we also utilize the 10 ASTM E-119 curve to assess the adequacy of penetration 11 seals, s- e- a- 1.
12 O okay.
13 Now did you, in your analysis, check on the 14 coefficient of thermal expansion of any of the stools used 15 in these doors or their frames, these steel fire doors?
16 A No, sir, we did not.
17 0 okay.
10 Did you check on the heat capacities of the 19 various steels used?
20 A No, sir, we did not.
21 O In fact, you could find the heat capacities and 22 co-ef ficients of thermal expansion for standard steel alloys 23 in reference texts, could you not?
24 A Yes, you could if you wanted to use them, yes.
O)
(_ 25 0 okay.
I
4360 7426
'1. Are these doors typically framed into concrete 2 walls? I l
3 A Masonry walls, yes. l
()
1
/~s 4 0 okay. Either block or concrete?
5 A Yes.
G 0 okay. j 1
7 Did you happen to check on the R-value, the !
8 thermal resistance of the, walls themselves?
9 A No, sir, we did not.
10 0 Would you accept that the R-value of masonry is 11 typically .2 per inch of thickness?
I 12 A I trust your statement on that fact, I would have 13 to check that mysel f to independently veri fy it .
14 0 okay. We could look that up in tables of 15 R-values of various materials, could we not?
16 A Yes, we could.
17 0 okay.
18 In your analysis, do you assume that the fire 19 brigade will arrive within 30 minutes to deal with a firo 20 that might affect one of these doors?
21 A our standard position of the Staff is that a half 22 an hour is the time from the advent of a fire through its l 23 ultimate extinguishment, yes.
24 0 okay.
~
l
((,')< 25 At what point do you assume that the fire brigade l
l
4360 7427 1 will begin to take action against a fire affecting one of 2 these doors in your analysis as' covered in your affidavit?
.3 A Well I can't answer that question because the
( j)
~
4 location of these doors vary throughout the plant and 5 consequently the response time by the fire brigade varies 6 f rom door-t o-door . However at no point would we assume that 7 the fire brigade would necessarily be delayed beyond a half 8 an hour.
9 O Okay.
10 Did you make any specific analysis of the fire 11 brigade response time to get to any1of these doors, fire 12 doors?
13 A No, sir, we did not.
14 0 okay.
p/
(_ 15 Did you make any analysis of the fire detection 16 instrumentation near these doors as to whether it would 17 detect a fire affecting the doors and give timely warning to 18 the plant personnel including the fire brigade?
19 A The answer to that question is generally yes. I 20 think you should be a little bit more specific as to what 21 you mean by an analysis.
22 O Well did you specifically, for any of these 23 doors, look where the various fire detectors in the fire 24 areas on the sides of the doors that are in the plant were
/h
(_) 25 and see what their detection capability would be for a fire
.. . .. . ~ .. .. . . . - - - . . - - . _ . - .. . . -
f4360 7428 1 near;the door, specifically?
2' .A Well I think to answer your question what I
, 3 .should tell you is that'we did look at fire detectors as
- () 4
~
well as_the availability of fire suppression, both automatic 5 and manual, and as part of our analysis.we concluded that, 6 yes, the presence of detectors on the interior of the plant 7 near the doors would give us reasonable assurance that a 8 fire would be detected in.its. initial stages before rapid 9 . buildup and flame generation and therefore would enable the 10 fire brigade to arrive at a point in time where the fire 11 would be relatively. -- I'll call i t -- benign or low in 12 intensity' prior to the door being significantly impacted by 13 that fire.
14 0 Okay.
- -15 -And what assumptions or data regarding the 16 reliability of the fire detectors and the redundancy of fire 17 detectors did you.use in making analysis toward that
~ 18 conclusion? ,
19 A Just past history primarily, not only from the
.20 standpoint of nuclear plant experience but also past. history 21 associated with detector use in any type of occupancy.
22 O Okay.
23 That's all the questions I have. Thank you very 24 much.
.D)
(m ' 25 JUDGE.KELLEY: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Eddleman.
4360 7429 1 I'm thinking about protocol here.
2 Mr. O'Neill, any questions?
3 MR. O'NEILL: No, sir.
()
4 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay.
5 Colleagues?
6 (No response.)
7 I have one question that grows out of,the 8 exchange between Mr. Eddleman and Mr. Kubicki carly on, it 9 had to do with how much steel was in these doors.
10 EXAMINATION BY THE BOARD 11 BY JUDGE KELLEY:
12 0 And I think Mr. Eddleman indicated based on what 13 he heard that he could just take the dimensions of the doors 14 and multiply them and get the number of cubic feet of steel
\7 15 in a door -- that would suggest to me that these doors are 16 made out of solid steel, is that true?
17 A Yes.
18 0 They are made out of solid -- just a plate of 19 steel. It isn't just that there's no air in the middle?
l 20 A That's correct.
21 O Aren't they -- they must be awfully heavy.
22 A They are.
23 O Okay. Thank you. That's interesting.
24 JUDGE KELLEY: Any questions?
,m
.) 25 Mrs. Moore?
(
I
v
-4360 7430 1 MRS. MOORE: No, your Honor, I have no questions.
2 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. Mr. Kubi ck i?
3 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
(~} 4 JUDGE KELLEY: I appreciate your joining us today
\/
5 and --
6 MR. EDDLEMAN: Judge, excuce me --
7 JUDGE KELLEY: Ltoops.
G MR. EDDLEMAN: Can I ask him a question based on 9 that one that you asked?
10 JUDGE KELLEY: Of course. Go ahead.
11 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 12 BY MR. EDDLEMAN:
13 O Mr. Kubicki, with these doors being solid steel, 14 if they expand will they tend to warp?
(m
() 15 A Yes, they would tend to warp. The tendency -- or 16 the design of the door helps to preclude the effect of 17 significant warping by tha use of the multiple steel locking 18 pins.
19 O Okay.
20 These locking pins are located in the doors-21 themselves, is that right? .
22 A Yes, they are associated with the doors and they 23 are engaged in such a way that the doors are secured tightly 24 into the frame.
/m 25 O Okay.
\m ')
4360 ^
7431 1
Is that on all edges of the frame or just where 2 the doors meet?
3 A It's where the door meets the frame.
('T 4 O All around the edges?
U S A To my knowledge, yes.
6 O Okay. Thank you very much.
7 JUDGE KELLEY: Any questions -- Let me put it 8 this way: any questions from anybody else?
9 (No response.)
10 Okay. I think then that, Mr. Kubicki, let me 11 just say, as I was saying before, we appreciate your ~ joining 12 us today, we often say at the end of a witness' appearance 13 that he is free to go but in this case I guess you've-14 already gone. But anyway thanks very much and you're
'(), 15 excused.
1G (Witness excused.)
17 JUDGE KELLEY: So we have a motion to admit the 18 Kubicki-Eberly affidavit, now that we have afforded this 19 opportunity for cross-examination and is there any objection 20 to our admitting the affidavit at this point?
21 Mr. Eddleman?
22 MR. EDDLEMAN: Judge, I have no objection. I 23 would just make the same note as we did on the other 24 affidavit, I am not necessarily stipulating to what it
[)
U 25 says --
l l
4360 7432 1 JUDGE KELLEY: I understand.
2 MR. EDDLEMAN: --
but I have no objection to its 3 admission into evidence.
4 JUDGE KELLEY: Right. Okay.
5 Then that affidavit is admitted on that 6 understand.
7 MR. O'NEILL: Judge Kelley, shall we give it a 8 Staff exhibit number?
9 JUDGE KELLEY: We should give it some number, I 10 guess, yes.
11 MRS. MOORE: That would be Staff Exhibit 8, your i
12 !!ono r .
13 JUDGE KELLEY: G, okay.
14 Did we give one to the preceding one, or had that 4
() 15 already been done?
16 MRS. MOORE: I have proposed it as Staff Exhibit 17 7.
18 JUDGE KELLEY: So they'll be 7 and 8.
19 MRS. MOORE: I will provide the requisite number 20 of copics to the Court Reporter.
21 JUDGE KELLEY: Thank you.
22 (Uhereupon, the Mascentonio et 23 al. a f fidavit was marked as 24 Staff Exhibit 7 for
() 25 identification.)
1
4360 7433 1 (Whereupon, the Kubicki-Eberly '
2 af fidavit was marked as 3 Staff Exhibit 8 for
() 4 ident i fi ca t ion . )
U 5 JUDGE KELLEY: There are a couple of other 6 matters that have come up since we originally scheduled the 7 telephone conference.
8 Let me ask first whether all of the parties 9 received our Memorandum and Order of December 7th 10 transmitting the transcript of the last telephone conference 11 and some other things.
12 Everybody receive that?
i 13 MR. O'NEILL: Applicants received it.
r 14 MRS. MOORE: Yes.
() 15 MR. EDDLEMAN: Judge, I roccived it I think 16 Saturday. I will -- if.you recall, I requested permission 17 to ask reconsideration. It will be a very short motion for 18 reconsideration, probably about a page, a page and a half, 19 I anticipate filing either late this week or early next, 20 within the ten days specified.
21 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay.
22 Just yesterday we received a letter from 23 Mrs. Flynn and addressed to the three Judges and the subject 24 was Mr. VanVough and the circumstances of the settlement and
() 25 Mr. Eddicman, I guess, talking with the local radio stations
4360 03 01 7434 1 ACDagb 1 about the subject.
2 Let me ask Mr. Eddleman 3 Itave you received a copy of the letter?
tm
('_) 4 MR. EDDLEMAN: Yes, I have.
5 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay.
G Would you like to comment on it?
7 MR. EDDLEMAN: Just a little bit. As I recall O the conversation was taped and I tried to get ahold of the 9 reporter but I was not successful. I believe that there are 10 some, you know, some things that aren't quite what I 11 remember what I saids for example, I believe it says in 12 there at one point that I said that CP&L's files would have 13 revealed certain things, certain problems substantiating s 14 what Mr. VanVough said. I believe I said something to the 15 effect that it would have or could have if Mr. VanVough was 16 correct and so on.
17 Also I guess my basic comment was that my 18 understanding was that the existence of a settlement, cash 19 settlement with Mr. VanVough was on the record per the 20 previous conference call and since it was on the record I 21 was as free to use that as any member of the public would 22 be. I thought that I better do my speculating before I had 23 a copy of the affidavit in my hand -- I mean not of the r 24 a f fidavit, of the agreement in my hand because if I did any p3 b 25 speculating once I had it the inference that I was doing so
a 4360 03 02 7435 1 AGBagb I on the basis.of information from it would be, you know, a 2 reasonable thing and I couldn't avoid that so I figured i f I 3 was going to talk to the press I had better talk to them
(] 4 before I got the thing.
%J 5 JUDGE KELLEY: Well did you consider, under all 6 of the circumstances, not talking to the press on this 7 subject at all?
8 MR. EDDLEMAN: I can't say I gave it much 9 thought, Judge.
10 JUDGE KELLEY: Well I guess our Doard talked 11 about it a little bit and we wanted to hear, you know, what 12 you had to say. We feel, based on what we knew and what we 13 hear from you now, that it was no t -- there wasn't any legal 14 bar, that's true, to your talking to the press at that time,
,s 15 we don't think that it was a prudent thing to do. You can
(_)
16 make a choice between trying the VanVough issues in the 17 media or before the Board, but for now you're choosing the 18 Doard and we've got a contention before us and the Board, at 19 least initially, keeping this agreement confidential, it 20 just says it's confidential between the parties. Of course, 21 you know that.
22 So we feel that to speculate about amounts of 23 money in terms of the agreement was, while not legally 24 barred, was not a good idea.
/% Well sir, I can appreciate that.
(s- ) 25 MR. EDDLEMAfi:
v 4360003 03 7436
'11 AGBagb~ 1 I.will say that Mr. O'Neill said, you-know, when we were 2' discussing it in.the previous conference call, at least as.1 3 recall,-that i t cost a good bit to litigate and.that was
'N 4 .something to take.into account, that was one'of the bases ~of
.Q( . :j 5 my; speculation. I'm not trying to presume,on some, you 6 .know, ' matters of Icgal practice, I-guess, that I probably
~
-7 don't understand fully. I guess my feeling is that we try 8 these things as a public proceeding except where things _are 9 ~ to be held in confidence; that things that were on the 10 record I can say and things that I guess I can say but I 11' obviously can't use anything that's under a protective order 12 and I haven't and I won't.
13 JUDGE KELLEY: Well I guess our perception Okay.
14 of this particular matter and yours are somewhat different.
() 15 You have stated your. slate on it and we have stated ours;
'l-6 again we think it i s a matter really more of - judgment -- it-17 is a matter of judgment, not a matter of legal ~ requirement.
18 Ue'will be in a different situation though, I~
' 19 think, quite shortly. We did, as you know, in our order 20 tell the Applicants to turn over the settlement' agreement 21 and we included in our order at page two this language:
22 "Mr. Eddleman is not to disclose any:
- 23. terms of the agreement to any other person subject 24 to further Board order."
['
%,) 25 And I' gather that's agreeable with you, i
t l .4--.s., b,-~ ,..m,
4360 03 04 7437 1 AGBagb -1 Mr. Eddleman?
2 MR. EDDLEMAN: Perfectly, Judge.
3 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. Well I think on that
/~3' 4 understanding that's all we wanted to say about it.
j 5 MRS. FLYNN: Excuse me, this is Mrs. Flynn, may I 6 just make one request? I think that it is important that 7 Mr. Eddleman understand that not only -- or that the order 8 be that not only can he not discuss the terms of the 9 agreement but that he not discuss the agreement at all, 10 because this --
11 JUDGE KELLEY : That's what we meant.
12 MRS. FLYNN: Okay.
13 JUDGE KELLEY: When we said don't discuss the 14 terms, we mean the agreement and the terms.
(ml
~j 15 MRS. FLYNN: Okay.
16 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay.
17 MRS. FLYNN: Thank you.
18 MR.. EDDLEMAN: Judge, now let me understand 19 this. Do you mean -- not to disclose the agreement, I am 20 perfectly agreeable with that.
21 JUDGE KELLEY: Right.
22 MR. EDDLEMAN: But you're saying I can't discuss 23 it. My understanding is that, you know, what's on the 24 record here is that there was an agreement made.
f) 25 JUDGE KELLEY: Right.
v
= v -- - m -
e
~
4360!O3:05- 7438
~1 .AGBagb. {l:
' !!R . EDDLEMAN: That there is a single paragraph 2 agreed between the power company'and Mr. VanVough as to what 3 may be disclosed about the agreement and the other thing 4 .that's on the record is that there was a cash settlement,
[
5 amount unspecified.
6 JUDGE KELLEY: That's right.
7 'MR. EDDLEt1AN: Okay.
8 . Now in other, words i f somebody calls me up and 9 asks me -- I ' m - not talking:about me taking the. initiative, 10 if somebody calls me-up and asks me says Well what do.you l
~
11 know about this agreement I'll say I can't tell'you anything
-12 but those three things because I got a copy under a
~
13 protective order and I can't-discuss what it says or doesn't-14 say. That's what I would do.
~
15 Now is that consistent with what you're talking
-(v .I-16 about?
17 JUDGE KELLEY : You're just saying that'the fact 18 that there is an agreement, that's public knowledge,_right?
19 MR. EDDLEMAN: Right.
20 JUDGE KELLEY: 13e agreement exists, and that's 4
21 no secret.
l 22 Secondly, a statement was made on the-record-that; i- 23 there was a payment made, a money payment. That, _too, is on ;
24 the public record.
() 25 What is-not on is what the amount would be, i
I o
f '
L
e c4360:03 06' ~7439
- l AGDagb 1 right?'
2 MR. EDDLEMAN: Yes, sir.
3 JUDGE KELLEY: But you know you can't speculate-
- 4 up, down or in any direction because you will in fact .know.
.5 MR. EDDLEMAN: Right.- So.that's what-I'm'saying, L
6 if somebody' asks me how much was it-I'.ll say I can't confirm 7- or deny any figure because I got~the thing under a O protective order.
9 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. What was your third point?
p 10 MR. EDDLEMAN: The third point was the single 11 paragraph that was agreed between the Applicants and
'1'2 Mr. VanVough as I understand it is a thing that could be
- l. 13 publicly stated about the agreement.
i 14 JUDGE KELLEY: It'already has been, hasn'tLit?
. '(
15 ' f1R . EDDLEMAN: That's right.
16 What I'm saying i s -- What I'm trying to clarify,
- s
~
17 Judge, and it may be just my ignorance of legal matters:
, 18 Are you ordering me not to discuss the agreement at all or-19 only not to reveal what's in it? <
, 20 JUDGE KELLEY: Well I think the three things that t 21 you just said as you said them is fair enough,,that's all-(
22 public. What we say here in our order -- and that's- the:
f-
! 23 operative language I'm quoting now:
! 24 "Mr. Eddleman is not to disclose any.
g () 25 terms of the agreement to any other person L
i.
I i
l-I i
i i
r:
4360:03=07 7440-1 ~AGBagb - 1 subject toLfurther Board order."
.2 -MR. EDDLEMAN: Right and that's certainly 3 agreeable to me.
4 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. And I think that's clear' ,
.O.l, 5 .enough. -In light of this discussion, do you think 2's 6 -clear.enough?
7 MR. EDDLEMAN: I think that's perfectly clear, 8 Judge. In other words -- well let me try to say it back:-
9 that I shouldn't say anything to anybody whether it's.
10' speculation or statement that discloses or describes or
-11 tells any of the terms of the agreement at all.
.12 JUDGE KELLEY: Right'.
13 MR. EDDLEMAN: Okay.
14 What I'm trying to understand is now as to those 15 things that are.on the public record I 'can talk about them (f
e 16 all I want, it's-just as to what they say, but I couldn't-
~ 1 '7 speculate as to say the amount of the settlement or the 18 other terms or anything like that because I got the-thing
-19 under a protective order and I know the answers so I'm not 20 allowed to say anything about that, right?
21 JUDGE KELLEY: I think that's a fair statement.
22 MRS. FLYNN: But Applicant s --
23 JUDGE KELLEY: I really think, you know, a simple 24 thing is getting awfully elaborate here --
() 25 MR. EDDLEMAN: I understand that, Judge,~but'what 4
3 4360o03L081 7441 1.^AGBagb 'l- -I'm:trying to see -- you see, before.you said that, you I
2 know --
3 JUDGE KELLEY: Mr.'Eddleman, let me finish,.
ki L 4 please.
5 MR. EDDLEMAN: I beg your pardon, Judge,-I i 6 thought you had.
7 JUDGE KELLEY: I'm not through.
8 I mean the agreement you are under is by.its 9 terms and this Board order of the 7 th' of December, 'it's one
10 sentence long and it contains about 17 words. It says don't 11- disclose the terms of the agreement period. Right. thy ' ve 12 been over the fact that you can say'to anybody you want 13 there was an agreement to settle, there was a payment of 14 some kind and there's a paragraph'here'that's public and
() 15 whatever the paragraph vaid.
~
Now isn't that enough-forius 16 to say this afternoon to have this straight? It is for me.
17 MR. EDDLEMAN: It is for me, too, Judge.
18 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. Then what else is open?
19 Mrs. Flynn, that give you a problem?-
20 MRS. FLYNN: I only -- Mr. Eddleman's concern is 21 giving me a-concern. I think that i f -- once he has the 22 agreement he should not -- equally he should not be nole to 23 speculate to the media or to other people about motivations 24 and things because it sounds as though -- I mean he's going 25 to have the document, I think once.he has it he has an
[)
4360 03 09 -7442 1 ACBagb 1 obligation to truly remain silent with the exception of the 2 three matters of fact that you have aircady articulated.
3 But speculation about motivation and hings like that seem c'"N 4 to me to be really going to the spirit of the protective V
5 arrangement, if not the precise letter. And since-6 Mr. Eddleman seems so concerned about the precise letter of 7 the Board's ruling, I am a little concerned about his view 8 of the spirit of it.
9 JUDGE KELLEY: Mr. Eddleman.
10 MR. EDDLEMAN: Yes.
11 JUDGE KELLEY: What about the approach of your 12 being free to speak about the three points that we have now 13 stated several times and I think it's quite' clear on the 14 record and otherwise not discussing this matter period?
O
- . ,j 15 MR. EDDLEMAN
- Judge, that was why I was trying 16 to clarify what the exact scope of the order was. It looked 17 straightforward to me in the December 7 th ruling. I don't 18 have any great interest in engaging in further speculation 19 on this, I think that just as a matter of judgment, let's 20 say, like.I said before that if I did any speculation about 21 it with the order in hand the inference that I was basing 22 that speculation on knowledge that I'm not allowed to 23 discuss or disclose would be reasonable and therefore I 24 shouldn't do it.
() 25 I've got a little problem, I guess, First
?43GO,.03 10 .
.7443
'2 AGBagb 1 Amendment-wise ~about being barred from saying anything-but
~2 those1three things about it-but_I guess without knowing 3 terms exactly I wouldn't.be able.to explain any further. !
-(); 4 JUDGE KELLEY: Well'I might just say,again we 5 don't_know how long the protective order'is going to 6 obtain. It may well.be.that next month or the month'after 7 that, for whatever reason, the protective order is'no-longer 8 in place. We simply don't know what's going to happen yet.
p '9 This is something that preserves the status quo for the 10 time being, that's the idea, and I don't think that the 11 First Amendment le going to be unduly infringed by a-12 short-term understanding that you are limited to those three i.
- 13 matters.
t l 14 MR. EDDLEMAN: Well what you're saying is until j( .
) 15 the Board modifies its order that I'm not to say'anything i 16 about this agreement except the three matters that are on
[ .17 the record, is that correct? ,
18 JUDGE KELLEY: Let me consult with my colleagues, 19 okay? Excuse us a moment.-
20 (Pause.)
21 The three Judges are back now, ladies and 22 gentlemen, just wait a minute, we'll be back to you, i
23 (Pause.)
I-24 This is Judge Kelley back.on. Mr. Eddleman, are 25 you with us? !
1()
i I ,
i l
e
4360 03 11 7444 2 AGDagb 1 MR. EDDLEMAN: Yes.
2 JUDGE KELLEY: Mrs. Flynn?
3 MRS. FLYNN: Yes.
,T 4 JUDGE KELLEY: Mr. O'Neill?
N._)
5 MRS. FLYNN: Yes.
6 JUDGE KELLEY: Mrs. Moore?
7 MRS. MOORE: Yes.
8 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay.
9 We have discussed this point somewhat further and 10 I'm going to tell you in a general way what we have decided 11 to do and then probably tomorrow we will mail you the exact 12 text of what we're going to do.
13 The basic idea though is that save for those 14 three areas that we have discussed several times in the last i
!q ,/ 15 few minutes, namely the existence of the. settlement, the 16 fact that a payment was made and the fact that there is a 17 piece of public information about it, neither Mr. Eddleman 18 nor the Applicants shall make any public statements about 19 this settlement pending further order of the Board. That's 20 the general thrut; of it. I think you can understand it.
21 Do you want to comment on it, Mr. Eddleman?
22 MR. EDDLEMAN: Judge, that's okay with me.
23 Am I allowed to tell people i f they ask me to i
24 comment that I am under order not to?
s
) 25 JUDGE KELLEY: Yes.
c 4360'04 01 7445 1 AGDagb 1 MR. EDDLEMAN: Okay. That's fine.
2 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay.
3 !!rs . Flynn?
4 MRS. FLYNN: Yes, that's agreeable-to us.
(~}
'uj 5 JUDGE KELLEY: All right.
6 Well we'll just have to work cut a couple 7 sentences and we'll mail it out tomorrow. We may phone it 8 to you also.
9 How our direction was that you supply the actual 10 agreement and any explanation you wanted to make by today.
11 Has that been done or is it being done?
12 MRS. FLYNN: It will be done today, yes.
13 JUDGE KELLEY: All right.
14 Well you can do it with the understanding that
<^s.
(,) 15 that's what the order will be.
16 !!RG . FLYNN: Thank you.
17 JUDGE KELLEY: All right.
18 The only other thing that we had this af ternoon 19 -- and we don't have to deal with it but we thought we might 20 be able to -- the Applicants filed a motion to receive 21 additional evidence dated December 11 and it behooves the 22 Poard to receive into evidence Applicant's Exhibit 27 and 28 23 having to do with pipe hangers.
24 Do you know the motion I'm talking about, f')
x.
25 ,Mr. Eddleman?
t w
4360 04 02 7446 1 AGBagb 1 F1R . EDDLE!!AN: Yes, I've seen it, and Mr. Baxter 2 and I had a brief conversation about it this morning. I 3 haven't really had time to dig into it. I don' t have a 4 response ready at this time.
(~}
5 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay.
6 MR. EDDLEMAN: I would just respond in writing.
7 JUDGE KELLEY: If you had looked it over and it 8 looked okay we would just be done with it but if you haven't 9 had a chance to study it then okay you'll just have to 10 respond in writing.
11 MR. EDDLEMAN: It will be a brief response.
12 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. fine.
13 Anything else anybody wants to raise?
14 !!rs . !!oore?
(~)
nj 15 MRS. MOORE: Staff has nothing.
16 JUDGE KELLEY: !!r . O 'Nei l l ?
17 !!RS . FLYNN: No, sir.
18 JUDGE KELLEY: Mr. Eddleman?
19 MR. EDDLEMAN: No, sir.
20 JUDGE KELLEY: I guess that's it then. Ue're 21 through here.
22 UcIl thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen, 23 Merry Christmas.
24 MRS. !!OORE : Sir, I'd like to thank everybody f
( 25 also, thank the Board and the partiel for accomodating us
4360 04 03 7447 1 ACBagh 1 in this so we don't have to go down to Raleigh.
2 JUDGE KELLEY: Did you have to say it quite that 3 way?
. p 4 (Laughter.)
%.J 5 MRS. MOORE: -- at this time of year i s what I 6 meant.
7 MR. EDDLEMAN: As the people of Raleigh and the 8 State of North Carolina, we take no offense.
9 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. Very good. Goodbye.
10 (Whereupon, at 2:35 p.m., the telephone 11 conference in the above-entitled matter was concluded.)
12 13 14 O' 15 t
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16 17 i
10 19 20 21 22 23 24 O - 25 l
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i m ,- n-<n -se- . . - - ,,--.v. .-e- , . . - - - , - , - - -,----,---.~...,.,-.-.,--,ew..c.---~, .na--,,,,w,, ,.g..---,,,- ,,,nn--,-g,,- - ,-w.pw,, -,me ,-,-
CERTIFICATE CF OFFICIAL REPORTER This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION in the matter of:
NAME OF PROCEEDING: CAROLINA POWER & LIGHT COMPANY and NORTH CAROLINA EASTERN MUNICIPAL POWER AGENCY (Shearon Harris Nuclear Power Plant, Units 1 and 2)
DOCKET NO.: 50-400-OL 50-401-OL PLACE: WASHINGTON, D. C.
DATE: MONDAY, DECEMBER 17., 1984 were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission, (sigt) .
(TYPED)
ANNE G. BLOOM Official Reporter ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
Reporter's Affiliation