ML20136F073

Transcript of 860103 Telcon in Washington,Dc.Pp 10,228- 10,243

ML20136F073
Person / Time
Site:	Harris
Issue date:	01/03/1986
From:	Atomic Safety and Licensing Board Panel
To:
References
CON-#186-703 OL, NUDOCS 8601070218
Download: ML20136F073 (18)

Text

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ORIGlhAL O . U.h11ED STATES 1 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION IN THE MATTER OF: DOCKET NO: 50-400 OL

, CAROLINA POWER & LIGHT COMPANY NORTH CAROLINA EASTERN MUNICIPAL POWER AGENCY (Shearon Harris Nuclear Power Plant)

N TELEPHONE CONFERENCE

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'V LOCATION: WASHINGTON, D. C. PAGES: 10,228 - 10,24 3 k

DATE: FRIDAY, JANUARY 3, 1986

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O OfficialReporters 444 North CapitolStreet 8601070218 860103 Washington, D.C. 20001 F2 DR ADOCK 0500 O (202)347-3700 NATIONWIDE COVE.q AGE

e CR25486.0 10,228 LOU /dnw I UNITED STATES OF AMERICA rp

'b 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3 BEFORE THE ATOMIC SAFETY AND LICENSING BOARD 4

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x 5  :

In the Matter of:  :

6  :

CAROLINA POWER & LIGHT COMPANY  :

7 NORTH CAROLINA EASTERN  :

MUNICIPAL POWER AGENCY  : Docket No. 50-400 OL 8  :

(Shearon Harris Nuclear Power  : TELEPHONE CONFERENCE 9 Plant)  :

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x 10 Suite 402 11 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.

444 North Capitol Street, N.W.

12 Washington, D. C.

() 13 Friday, January 3, 1986 14 The conference in the above-entitled matter convened 15 at 10:45 a.m., pursuant to notice.

16 BEFORE:

17 JAMES L. KELLEY, ESQ., Chairman Atomic Safety and Licensing Board 18 U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission Washington, D. C. 20555 19 JAMES H. CARPENTER, Member 20 Atomic Safety and Licensing Board U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission 21 Washington, D. C. 20555 22 23

-- con tinued --

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10,229 1 APPEARANCES:

2 On behalf of the Applicant:

3 THOMAS A. BAXTER, ESQ.

4 Shaw, Pittman, Potts & Trowbridge 1800 M Street, N.W.

5 Washington, D. C.

6 DALE HOLLAR, ESQ.

Associate General Counsel

~

7 Carolina Power and Light Company P.O. Box 1551 8 Raleigh, North Carolina 27602 9 On behalf of the Federal Emergency Management Agency:

10 JOSEPH FLYNN, ESQ.

11 Assistant General Counsel 12 Appearing Pro Se:

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's) 13 WELLS EDDLEMAN 806 Parker Street 14 Durham, North Carolina 27701-3131

-15 On behalf of North Carolina Attorney General's Office:

16 JO ANNE SANFORD, ESQ.

17 KAREN E. LONG, ESQ.

18 On behalf of the NRC Staff:

19 JANICE E. MOORE, ESQ.

Office of the Executive Legal Director 20 U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission Washington, D. C. 20555

21 On behalf of HMS Associates

22 DAVID KEAST 23 24 Ase- Repo,ters, Inc.

25

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1 4860.01 01 10230

,/ ' ] L O U b w 1 PROCEEDINGS Q

2 JUDGE KELLEY: By way of brief background, you 3 all should have received the order from the Board dated 4 December 26, 1985, entitled " Request for Siren Information."

5 I had a call yesterday from Mr. Baxter indicating 6 that Mr. Keast for CP&L had a question about the order, in ,

7 fact, suggested a conference call, to discuss whether we 8 need a court reporter on this. As I understand it, it's a 9 question and, hopefully, an answer, and our thought 10 yesterday was we probably didn't, as long as we got 11 everybody on the phone, but I thought about it a bit more, 12 and we thought it might be prudent to go ahead and get a

() 13 court reporter, so we have done so.

14 I think I will just turn to Mr. Baxter. Do you 15 want to state the question or ask Mr. Keast to?

16 MR. BAXTER: Thank you, Judge Kelley.

17 Yes, there are several. We tried to interpret la the two items on page 2 of the order in the context of the 19 discussion on directivity pattern, and that raises a 20 question in our mind, and rather than send in a litoral 21 answer to the two items and then perhaps have another round, 22 because we misunderstood, we wanted to see if we could have 23 a meeting of minds and make sure were were being responsive 24 the first time we filed.

() 25 JUDGE KELLEY: We appreciate your taking this Ace-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.

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4860 01 02 10231 T'T LOUbw 1 approach. It seems simpler. Go ahead.

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2 MR. BAXTER: The first item requested is the 3 technical specifications for the federal signal Thunderbolt 4 Model 1000 Siren.

5, What I have from the manufacturer, entitled 6 " Specification," does give a lot of information about power 7 requirements, the sound output at 100 feet frequency range, 8 we ig ht , dimensions, what you expect to see in a list of 9 manufacturers' specifications. And we have that available, 10 Judge Carpenter and can send it.

11 We didn't appreciate how it would relate or how 12 it would help you with the directivity pattern, though, so

/~') 13 my first question before we get to Item 2, on Item 1, is, is V

14 that helpful, and is that what you are looking for?

15 JUDGE CARPENTER: Mr. Baxter, of course not. The 16 question directed to the activity pattern, that's the reason 17 for having the two items. The technical specifications 18 don' t describe the siren adequately, so you're exactly 19 right. None of the items that you listed speak to 20 directivity.

21 MR. BAXTER: Is that what we want for Item 17 22 JUDGE KELLEY: That's what we want for Item 1 23 then.

24 JUDGE CARPENTER: Mr. Keast, I invite you to jump

() 25 in at any point.

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. / 'j LOUbw 1 Mr. Baxter, maybe to give some perspective, in

.g 2 the order there was a typographical error where it was typed 3 " Christmas' Eve," and I apologize. It refers to page 25 of 4 Mr. Keast's testimony, when it should refer to page 22. On 5 page 22 of Mr. Keast's testimony, he testified regarding the 6 temporal pattern of the siren sound in the Harris EPZ.

7 I'd like to ask Mr. Keast what was his source of 8 information regarding the temporal pattern. I was guessing 9 it might be the technical specification. If my guess was in 10 error, we need to know that.

11 j MR. KEAST: Okay. The error, sir, is my source 12 was the directivity pattern which I have, of course,

,~

(_) , 13 provided to Mr. Baxter and, of course, can be made available 14 to you.

15 VOICE: Mr. Keast, could you please speak up.

16 I'm having trouble hearing you.

17 . MR. KEAST: Yes. My source was the directivity pattern that is referred to in your request, and I have 18 {

19 given a copy out to Mr. Baxter, and he can pass it cn to 20 you.

21 JUDGE CARPENTER: Mr. Keast, what is the source 22 of the pattern? From whence did you get it?

23 MR. KEAST: It was given to me informally by 24 Federal Signal, perhaps five or six years ago, when I was

() 25 collecting informatica from them, and I have resurrected ACE-FEDERAI, REPORTERS, INC.

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4860 01 04 10233 7~3 LOUbw 1 it from the files for this purpose.

V 2 JUDGE CARPENTER: In what form is the 3 information?

4 MR. KEAST: It is a Polar graph. It shows sound 5 level as a function of angle away from the axis of the horn 6 of the siren, and it is how it is observed at 100 feet from 7 the siren.

8 JUDGE CARPENTER: That horn that's described 9 there is the same horn that's to be used in the Harris EPZ?

10 MR. KEAST: Yes, sir.

11 JUDGE CARPENTER: So its sound level is a 12 function of angle?

(} 13 MR. KEAST: Yes, sir. Angle with respect to the 14 axis of the horn.

15 JUDGE CARPENTER: That sounds like it's precisely 16 the object of the order.

17 MR. KEAST: Okay. Well, that is precisely what 18 we can give you?

19 MR. BAXTER: It is what Mr. Keast used. It isn' t 20 exactly what Item 2 says. It's not a measure taken of the 21 Harris EPZ for five minutes, but it is what was used. I 22 received this yesterday. If that satisfies the request, I 23 can put it in the mail today.

24 JUDGE CARPENTER: Me, Baxter, I'd like to ask

() 25 whether the measurements that are referred to in Item 2 ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.

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( ) LOUbw 1 actually exist.

2 MR. BAXTER: We are confident we don't have 3 anything that goes for five minutes.

4 Dr.'Bassiouni of Acoustics Technology took some 5 measurements, and we are attempting to get whatever data he 6 has. We don't have it yet. They will be daytime, and I 7 can't really describe with any more precision today what we 8 are going to got, but they were not used by Mr. Keast.

9 JUDGE CARPENTER: Mr. Baxter, have you learned 10 from Dr. Bassiouni whether a recording of sound levels was 11 made at a fixed point?

12 MR. BAXTER: I have not spoken with him.

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(_) 13 Mr. Goodwin, can you answer that question?

14 MR. GOODWIN: Yes. This is Ralph Goodwin.

15 Dr. Bassiouni, when he took his measurements, did 16 record the sound leve1\ using a tape recording device.

17 JUDGECARPENhER: -Mr. Baxter, we would like the 18 information that Mr. Keast has provided to' you, at your 19 earliest convenience- , and we'd also like sound recordings 20 that Dr. Bassiouni made, as soon as they're available.

21 The second is backup to the first, and it seems 22 desirable.

I 23 1 MR. FLYNN: I have a question about Judge 24 Carpenter's last request. Do I understand correctly that A

kJ 25 the recordings we're talking about are tape recordings?

. ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.

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4860 01 06 10235 f()-LOUbw 1 JUDGE CARPENTER: I assume that they are strip 2 chart recordings.

3 MR. FLYNN: The point I wanted to make is, if 4 they are tape recordings, it would seem to be rather 5 difficult to share that with the parties. If they are 6 interpretations of the tape recordings, that's a different 7 matter.

8 MR. GOODWIN: As I remember the work when it was 9 done, they were made with tape recordings -- magnetic tape 10 recordings.

11 JUDGE CARPENTER: Mr. Goodwin, do you know if 12 those recordings have been converted to numerical data A

(_) 13 summaries versus time or a graph versus time showing sound 14 level versus time at a fixed location or a rotating siren?

15 MR. GOODWIN: No, sir. I don't know that that 16 has been done. All that I know is that the recordings were 17 made and how it has been analyzed since those recordings 18 were made, I'm not sure of at this point.

19 MR. BAXTER: We are in the process of getting 20 what is basically on tape and, of course, if it's available 21 in that form, we prefer to submit it in that form rather 22 than a tape. It would be more convenient for anyone.

23 JUDGE CARPENTER: The Board feels very strongly 24 that whatever device Dr. Bassiouni has for converting those 25 tapes should be used before it's transmitted to you.

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-(_) LOUbw 1 MR. BAXTER: I understand.

i 2 JUDGE CARPENTER: Are there other questions from 8

3 Mr. Keast, Mr. Baxter, about the meaning of the order?

4 MR. _ BAXTER:' , No , I think we understand the 5 request. I'm not sure we understand how the Bassiouni data 6 will assist, but we'll be happy to provide it.

7 I can mail the directivity pattern Mr. Keast 8 used, today.

9 Do you have any questions, Mr. Keast?

10 MR. KEAST: I think I should clarify a comment on 11 the directivity pattern which you will be provided. The 12 -title of the graph you will receive is " Thunderbolt Siren

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( 13 l Directivity Pattern GB2 at 100 feet, 650 Volts."

I I

14 In applying it for this particular study, where 15 the sirens operate at 500 hertz, I have assumed -- and this 16 is written on the graph that you will receive -- 500 hertz 17 would presumably be broader.

18 ! In other words, the use of a 650 hertz 19 directivity pattern for a 500 hertz siren is slightly 20 conservative because the duration of sound exposure would be 21 slightly greater at 500 hertz than at 650 hertz.

22 23 24

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4860 02 01 10237 (m) LOUbw 1 JUDGE CARPENTER: Mr. Keast, do you indicate in a l 2 quantitative sense on the graphs the nature of that i

3 assumption?

4 MR. KEAST: No, I do not. Just indicated that I 5 make the assumption.

6 JUDGE CARPENTER: All right.

7 MR. KEAST: In my judgment, it's a minor matter, 8 and it's in the conservative direction. That is why I use 9 this graph, which is the only one I have available.

10 JUDGE CARPENTER: Well, to the extent that it's 11 conservative or perhaps not entirely physically realistic, 12 the measurements by Dr. Bassiouni, if you can get them,

() 13 would provide a basis for calibrating the graph.

14 MR. BAXTER: Well, except, as I understand it, 15 you get a slightly different directivity pattern for a given 16 siren, a given location, a given time, depending upon l 17 conditions.

18 JUDGE CARPENTER: Mr. Keast, would you amplify on 19 Mr. Baxter's statement as to how great that might be?

20 JUDGE KELLEY: Can I interrupt just a moment.

21 Hold on just a moment, please, ladies and gentlemen. I'm 22 going to push our mute button. We will be back on in just a 23 moment.

24 (A pause.)

25 JUDGE CARPENTER: The Board is back on the ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.

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()LOUbw 1 conference.

2 Mr. Keast, is there a simple response to my 3 question?

4 MR. KEAST: Only in a qualitative sense. The 5 data that you could receive from a field measurement such as 6 may be available from Bassiouni will show short-term 7 temporal variability. For example, each time the siren 8 swings by the observer, a somewhat different pattern will be 9 observed. The reason for this is inhomogeneities in the 10 atmosphere. Those inhomogeneities and their effects will be 11 larger from any dif ferent in the directivity pattern between 12 500 hertz and 650 hertz. In addition, they will be larger

() 13 in the daytime, when I presume the measurements were made, 14 than they would be at night, because atmospheric 15 inhomogeneities are greater in the daytime. If you were to 16 look at a record of five minutes of siren operation, each 17 siren passage record -- each siren passage peak, if you 18 will, will not be identical.

19 JUDGE CARPENTER: That's why in' writing the 20 order, we thought a record with a length of five minutes 21 would give us sufficient data base, so a central tendency 22 might appear. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what 23 data Dr. Bassiouni has before we can pursue this matter 24 further.

25 MR. GOODWIN: Judge Carpenter, this is Ralph ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.

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v LOUbw 1 Goodwin again. One thing that does come to mind on 2 transposing the magnetic tape data to either a graphic 3 display or tabular display which shows the siren sound level 4 in relationship to time, it could be a time-consuming 5 process to get back to Dr. Bassiouni to carry out that 6l work.

7 I'm not aware of what his work levels are at the 8 present time or in what form the data is in, and I think we 9 need to acknowledge the~ fact that it might be something that 10 might involve time to produce.

11 JUDGE KELLEY: Would it be possible, once you 12 talk to Dr. Bassiouni, to get back -- not in a conference

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(_) 13 call, but get back to Mr. Eddleman and us and FEMA and just 14 give us a status report on what does he have, and when can 15 he do whatever he can do, so we have some notion of that 16 parameter?

17 We have had some discussion now of what the Board 18 had in mind and what Mr. Keast and Dr. Bassiouni either have 19 or may have. I think that's clarified.

20 Does anybody have any question about what the 21 Board has asked for and what's going to be provided?

22 Do the Applicants understand that, Mr. Baxter, at 23 this point?

24 MR. BAXTER: I believe so; yes.

25 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. Mr. Eddleman, I expect ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.

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) LOUbw 1 you might have questions about aspects of this. I'm going 2 to make a suggestion and state too that now that we have 3 established what's wanted and what's forthcoming, that we 4 await its arrival to everybody.

5 We said in our order of the 26th that we thought this information might just be straightforward and not 6l 7 require any cross-examination. In some of the discussions 8 today, I'm not sure whether that's completely true or not, 9 but in any case, I would suggest deferring questions from 10 the other parties until they have actually seen what these 11 papers look like.

12 Does that seem reasonable, Mr. Eddleman?

q f 13 MR. EDDLEMAN: Judge, I don't have any problem 14 with that with respect to the information. I should 15 mention, I still haven't got the map that the Staff was 16 going to put in the mail. It may be held up in the 17 : Christmas rush.

18 l JUDGE KELLEY: I think we got ours just 19 yesterday.

20 MR. EDDLEMAN: Okay. I'll wait for that.

21 What I wanted to ask is, does the explanation of 22 data here belong on the record, since it's somewhat explains 23 what information is being supplied and its relevance. For 24 example, I don' t think I heard the variation of the siren

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N/ sound level thing before in the testimony that's in the 25 ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.

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())LOUbw 1 record. That's just from my memory.

2 JUDGE KELLEY: We said in our order -- I think 3 the short answer is yes, Mr. Eddleman. Or the answer ought 4 to be yes, and we can hear any disagreements, but our 5 thought was to get the information, and we have now had some 6 interpretation about what it means. It seems sensible to 7 include that too, and I'd go further and say that I can send 8 you a copy of today's transcript by Express Mail, and if the 9 discussion on the record here this morning raises questions 10 in your mind, and you have other questions based on what 11 comes in, you could put them with that later, but not a very 12 much later date.

() 13 MR. EDDLEMAN: Thank you, Judge. I appreciate 14 that.

15 JUDGE KELLEY: Comments from the State?

16 Ms. Sanford? ,

17 j MS. SANFORD: We have no comments. This 18 procedure sounds satisfactory.

19 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay.

20 Ms. Moore?

21 MS. MOORE: The Staff has no comment. That's 22 fine with us.

23 JUDGE KELLEY: Mr. Flynn?

24 MR. FLYNN: No comment.

25 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay.

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/- m i 1 Now you said, Mr. Baxter, you could mail out the s_)LOUbw 2 papers today, and we're going to get -- I guess I'm just 3 reviewing the status of things.

~

4 We're going to get a status report back.

5 If Dr. Bassiouni can do these things rather 6 quickly and just ship them off, then just do that. If 7 there's going to be some significant delay, could you let us 8 know?

9 MR. BAXTER: Yes, sir.

10 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. And then we said in our 11 l order - that anybody who wants cross-examination on this 12 material, and it means the papers forthcoming, plus matters

(~)

(/ 13 discussed today, should ask for it within five days after we 14 get the papers, and a telephone call would suffice.

15 For example, Mr. Eddleman, if you want to have an 16 opportunity for questions, if you call me and let the 17 Applicants and Staff know, we should be able to set l

18 ' something up.

19 Ithinkthenthatthatseemstocoverthishrom 20 our standpoint.

21 Anything else from anybody on this morning's 22 subject? Mr.- Baxter?

23 MR. BAXTER: No.

24 JUDGE KELLEY: Anybody else?

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) I 25 (No response.)

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[LOUbw 1 Okay. Let me just mention one other matter while 2 we're on the phone. I know Mr. Eddleman, this morning is 3 negotiating a discovery dispute. I am right about that, am 4 I not?

5 MR. EDDLEMAN: We haven' t gotten to the

~

negotiating part yet, Judge.

6f 7 JUDGE KELLEY: In any event, you mentioned that 8 was upcoming. I was simply going to mention that.

9 We would hope you could work it out and negotiate 10 a settlement and just move on. If you come to disagreement, 11 then the next step for Mr. Eddleman would be a motion to 12 compel.

,~

13 Why don't you get back with me, and we would be 14 willing -- I would think, if the parties to do it -- to 15 approach this in an expedited way and maybe handle it on the 16 , phone to hear a motion to compel and the answer fairly 17 straightforward and just get it resolved.

I 18 But again, we would urge you to try to negotiate 19 it out.

20 We have nothing else. If there is nothing else 21 from any one else, we will say thank you and good morning.

22 (Whereupon, at 11:23 a.m., the telephone 23 conference was concluded.)

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CERTIFICATE OF OFFICIAL REPORTER t'

L))

This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION in the matter of: -

NAME OF PROCEEDING: CAROLINA POWER & LIGHT COMPANY NORTH CAROLINA EASTERN MUNICIPAL POWER AGENCY (SHEARON HARRIS NUCLEAR POWER PLANT)

DOCKET NO.: 50-400- OL PLACE: WASHINGTON, D. C.

) DATE: FRIDAY, JANUARY 3, 1986 were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission.

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v .

(TYPED)

LOUIS P. WAIBEL Official Reporter ACE-FEDERAL EPORTERS Reporter's Affiliation, INC.

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