ML20055A755
ML20055A755 | |
Person / Time | |
---|---|
Site: | Harris |
Issue date: | 07/14/1982 |
From: | Atomic Safety and Licensing Board Panel |
To: | |
References | |
ISSUANCES-OL, NUDOCS 8207190408 | |
Download: ML20055A755 (244) | |
Text
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
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In .he .v2.t::ar cf: :
SHEARON HARRIS NUCLEAR POWER : DOCKET NOS. 50-400 OL PLANTS, UNITS 1 AND 2 : 50-401 OL O July 14, 1982 214 - 456 DA*I: PAGzs: -
AT: Raleigh, North Carolina
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.EDER50X /' RENTUG 0 ~
400 Vi: @ ia Ave., S.W. Wash # m en, D. C. 20024 O Telephcne: (20 } 554-2345 t1 1 71GO408 820.'14
- ADOCK 05000400 PliR
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I' UNITED STATES OF AMERICA (v3 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COBEISSION 3 ATOMIC SAFETY AND LICENSING BOARD 4'
. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ x-e 5 :
@ In the matter of: :
SHEARON HARRIS NUCLEAR POWER ek'et Nos. 50-400 OL Sn-401 OL g
k7 PLANTS, UNITS 1 AND 2 :
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$ 10 5 -
5 ij Wednesday, July 14, 1082.
$ , 4 Dobbs Government Building d 12 -
Room 217 Raleigh, North Carolina 276.n2 O$i m is n
5 I4 ,. Prehearing conference in the above-entitled matter g i I 15 convened, pursuant to adj ournment , at 8:30 a.m.
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, c,5 I7 BEFORE:
h M 18 JAMES L. KELLEY, Chairman E Administrative Judge g
I9 Atomic Safety and Licensing Board n
20 GLENN O. BRIGHT, Member Administrative Judge 21
. Atomic' Safety and Licensing Board O 22 , AYES CAR,zNTER. yemser Administrative Judge 23 ! Atomic Safety and Licensing Board h ,
lO 24 j 25 ,
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1 ! APPEARAN CES :
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(/ 2 On behalf of'the LLcensee:
l 3 THOMAS A. BAXTER, Esq.
- JOHN H. O'NEILL, Esq.
(,3) 4; ~Shaw,-Pittman, Potts and Trowbridge 1800 M. Street , N.W.
s 5 Washington, D.C. 20036 0 .
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SAMANTHA FRANCIS FLYNN, Esq.
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RICHARD E. JONES, Esq.
5 7 Carolina Power & Light Company l P.O. Box 1551 5 ,
g 8 Raleigh, North Carolina 27602 d
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y 10 On behalf of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission Staff:
II CHARLES.A. BARTH, Esq.
- MYRON KARMAN, Esq.
g 12 -Office of the Executive Legal Director S U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission 13
(_)s g Washington, D.C. 20555 y 14 15 On behalf of intervenors:
/.
. 16 WELLS EDDLEFMN TRAVIS PAYNE h I7 l DANIEL READ i
- RICHARD WILSON
{ 18 PATRICIA NEWMAN E SLATER NEWMAN s I9 PHYLLIS LOTCHIN A
JOHN COWGELL '
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2 JUDGE KELLEY: Back on the record.
3 We're beginning the second day,of our prehearing O 4 conference in the sheeron Herris egereeing 11 cense proceeding.
a 5- Our formal session this morning is getting underway a little 9
j 6 late-because we did'have some negotiations between the R
8 7 'intervenors and applicants and staff over some of the Z
8 8 contentions, and the board just wishes to state that we have 4
0 9 and continue to encourage negotiations of'that sort. I g 10 think it's very helpful if the parties can get together on'a D
11 contention and it's well worth -- where the process bears E:
12
$ fruit after a while, it's well worth the t'_me that you spend.
Oj5 13 we had a request from ccac that one of their members,
@ 14 spokesman for them, come in today. His availability is
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15 extremely limited. Mr. Cowgell is his name. He can come
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3l 16 in between 1:00 and 1:30. He wants to address one contention m
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as I understand it; but in any event, we said come in and we
{ 18 would accommodate him when he came.
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That would suggest going to lunch right around 20 twelve let's say and being back here at one so we could go o 21 into the schedule.
22 Q As far as the schedule goes, we will take such time 23 l , as needs to be taken to go over the items we need to get over.
4 24 Yesterday seemed to go pretty well in terms of the agenda and t
25 j things ne obviously need to talk about, but it's sometimes hard t
l a ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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1 to tell how long sorething is going to take. If we are O 2 through at three er four e.c1eck this efterneen, thet.s fine.
3 On the other hand, if we are not, if it comes Si30 or so and O 4 we have a ways to go, we can see whether we want to keep 3 5 going or consider whether we come back tomorrow morning and 8 ~
@ 6 finish up. Then I think we will have to wait and see.
e7 1 6. 7- This is j ust to say that the board here -- you know -- a lot i
78 '
y 8 of people have come a long way, and the main thing is to ;
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q 9 address the points that need it, and we will stay over if we g 10 need to, but let's see how it looks in late afternoon.
11 Before we get into the contentions this morning, j a
] y 12 Judge Carpenter had some comments to make about.his piece of
! 5 .
O sm is grior work that we did for ce a t that he wanted to tetk to j
s ly 14 the parties about.
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i l 218 I JUDGE CARPENTER: All right. I'd just like at this
() 2' point in the proceeding to make it a matter of record that on 3 May 14th, 1982, I sent a memo to all parties to inform them of
() 4 the fact that I had carried out two studies that were responsed e 5 by Carolina Power & Light and .sent all parties copies of the h
j 6, reports that were the results of those studies so they might G
8 7 examir.e the nature of that uork, and I'll put a copy of that n
j 8 memoraadum in the record. The memo advised the parties that d
d 9 they might submit comments by June 1st and I'd also like to i
e g 10 put on the record that only two comments were received, one j 11 dated May 24, 1982, from John Runkle, representing the Conservation u
ya 12 Council of North Carolina, which he notes was furnished to C
13 all parties, and I presume all parties got copies of that.
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[ 14 The other response was from Mr. Wells Eddleman in the form of 2 15 a post card, and it isn't clear to me that all parties got y 16 that, w
d 17 MR. EDDLEMAN: I sent a copy -- a xerox copy of the d
l f; 18 card to docketing and service so they should have distributed E 19 ' it. I got one copy back -- a copy of the copy back.
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20 JUDGE CARPEUTER: I see. So all parties did get 21 copies?
22 MR. BARTH: Your Honor, the staff did not receive l
i 23 ? your memorandum, Dr. Carpenter, nor have we received a l
k 24 response by Mr. Runkle or Mr. Eddleman. It's constantly 25 ] been a problem in this case that this was part of the .
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1 l conversation and telephone conference and I thought the I
(]) 2 chairman's order had covered that.
3 JUDGE KELLEY: It sounds like it's at least in
(]) 4 part an internal NRC problem insofar;as you didn't get c 5 Judge Carpenter's memo. That's URC's problem, not the N
@ 6l party's. Anyway, I think you ought to check with downtown R
8 7 docketing.
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[ 8 MR. BARTH: Sir, I think that the regulations d
d 9 provide, and this has been a practice, I've been with this d
@ 10 for ten years with the service staff council, and docket g 11 servicing does not affect, it does not serve the lawyers a
d 12 who have to run the case.
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. 13 JUDGE KELLEY: I wasn' t referring to that, Mr.
14 Barth. I was talking about Mr. Carpenter's memo, the way E 15 we serve, and it's regrettable that you didn' t get it and 5
.j 16 we can certainly provide you with a copy, I would think.
2 d 17 i If the staff has any question, raise it forthwith.
E h 18 MR. BARTH: Thank you, Your Honor.
P 19 JUDGE 'KELLEY: Apart from that --
h 20 JUDGE CARPENTER: That's my purpose in raising it
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21 here, to ask if all parties have been properly served.
6 22 MR. JONES : We have not seen Mr. Eddleman's 23f response.
24 ! JUDGE CARPENTER: Yeah.
( {3 u) Ii It's brief. I guess I 25 [ might as well read it in the record would' be the simplest way l
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l 220 1 . of serving on the parties.
O 2 It reads: I commend you for bringing your work for 3 CP & L in the areas of its Brunswick plant and its Roxboro t] 4 Coal plant to my attention supplying copies of your studies to c -5 me.
II y 6g The next paragraph; for clarification I'd like to G
$ 7 have on the record, one, thc .date:of the first publication s
y 8 of the HYCO study (second printing was June, 1981). Second d
ci 9 item, the date you last worked for CP & L. Three, the ii E 10 contracts under which you worked for CP & L and, four, the i5
'h 11 amounts paid you under said contracts including dates of s-p 12 payments. I think your candor is very helpful and this 5
{} 13 information should make your position clear.
i $ 14 And rather than responding in writing to Mr.
15 Eddleman, I thought I'd respond on the record this morning
.j 16- so that if there?.is any dialogue that might develop from A
ti 17 : that it would be more sufficient than by written correspondence.
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{ 18 With response to the first item, the date of the first E
E 19 publication of the HYCO study, I believe it as June, 1981.
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20 l It was simply a second printing, but I haven't verified that.
21 MR. EDDLEMAN: Sir, that study was done in '77, l
i 22 but it wasn' t printing until ' Bl?
23 : I read the study. Most of that water monitoring l
24 data is I think '77, some'in '78. It's a good studp. I 25 liked it.
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4 221 1 JUDGE CARPENTER: Then I would guess it_was 1980.
1
() 2i It was roughly a year.
3 MR. EDDLEMAN: Does CP & L know?
() 4 MR. JONES: That sounds about right. I think the g 5 work was done in the late '70s and the report probably was '80.
E j 6 JUDGE CARPENTER: The date I last worked for CP & L, R
$ 7 I don' t work for CP & L. I did a study under a contract with
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j 8 them and the last time I did some work under the terms of a d
9 9 contract, which was simply in terms of being paid by the 8
g 10 day for time that I spent on the HYCO project and the Cape
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w 11 Fear project, I believe the last work I did had to do with j 12 preparing the section of that report which is referenced I E
13
(]) think at page 34 of that report. That was in 19 -- late 1979 x
5 14 or early 1980. I checked my records in 19 -- I'm sorry --
b 15 1980, late 1980 and 1981. I checked my records for 1981.
j 16 I billed Caroline Power and Light $1600. The previous 1.
(= I7 l year I spent eight or nine days on HYCO Lake twice and the
{ 18 l billing for that field work probably came to $6000.
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222 Brl 1 This was just to give you some fee 1 for the 2 involvement.
3 MR. EDDLEMAN: I think that is the full response 4 to the questions I had. I didn't mean to imply by asking e 5 them that there was anything wrong with what you did.
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$ 6 JUDGE CARPENTER: I would be responding, sir, R
$ 7 if I thought there was anything wrong.
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-j 8 MR. EDDLEMAN: I wonder, based on some of the d
9 9 things you said yesterday, if I could ask you a couple of 8
g 10 questions about risk assessment.
j 11 (Pause) is g 12 JUDGE KELLEY: This has to do with Judge Carpenter's Ol i3 imgereta11ty also
@ 14 .MR. EDDLEMAN: Yes.
2 15 JUDGE KELLEY: Same subject?
E j 16 MR. EDDLEMAN : Yes. I am not implying that there us 6 17 is anything wrong with his impartiality. I realize that a
{ 18 good judge would often ask very sharp questions , and I don't 5
19 mean to imply that the questions he asked yesterday were very g
n 20 sharp, but when you were speaking to Mrs. Lotchin about risk l 21 assessment, you seemed to be stating that the view of risk i
O 22 essessment thet you ho1d is that grebes 111ty times consequemces 23 ; equals risk.
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Q 24 JUDGE CARPENTER: Yes. I'm really quoting from 25 ; many of the documents, some that she was holding in her hands; ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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j 3r2 1 f and I was asking if she could put it in the context of the
' 2e document that she had already directed our attention to.
3 MR. EDDLEMAN: Um-hum.
A V 4 JUDGE CAPPENTER: That I might then understand.
5 MR. EDDLEMAN: You are connecting it to the g
4 3 6! commission's position?
eT e3 7 JUDGE CARPENTER: Yes. Absolutely.
M h 8 MR. EDDLEMAN: Yes, d
9 JUDGE CARPENTER: And in looking at safety, you G 10 are looking at increments of risk since zero risk is not --
E II I find it real helpful and certainly the commission's -- if
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g 12 not explicitly stated, remember, the document is out for r' S C) 5* 13 i
discussion. It's what we have on the table before us today, l 14 so I think that is a good -- we tried to focus our discussion 15 in terms of the documents that she was using for reference.
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. 16 MR. EDDLEPAN: Yes, sir. That clears up what I us f
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{ 18 JUDGE CARPENTER: Um-hum.
E g l9 JUDGE KELLEY: Did you have some further points for n
20 that answer? Did you get through?
21 JUDGE CARPENTER: I wanted to ask Fr. Eddleman lC 22 I
.hether he thought 1 was fu11, resgems1,e.
23 ; MR. EDDLEMAN: I think so.
() 24 JUDGE KELLEY: Judge Carpenter said e was trying 25 s to relate Mrs. Lotchin's comments to studie that NPC had l 4 1 8 l!
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v 2 Are you through?
3 JUDGE CARPENTER: That's all.
b 4 JUDGE KELLEY: That does cover that. Is that it?
5 JUDGE CARPENTER: I will make a semigratuitous g
e j 6 point. I wouldn't.want the applicant or anybody on the G
$ 7 intervenors to be surprised to learn as they go into the 4 j 8 literature that I have spent most of my time doing research i
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- i 9 on the effects of chlorine environment. Roughly a million g 10 dollars from the Environmental Protection Agency, that some
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11 of the contentions on the table I do have some prior knowledge h
w 12 of; and coming back to Mr. Eddleman's point, I am very I
5 Oi ia censcious of the fact that -- thet env decision reeched in
@ 14 the proceeding is based on the evidence presented, and I an 3
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15 here to listen, but that is the perspective I bring to my job j 16 on the board is from having been involved in research, and :I us ti 17 .was involved in preparing the EPA coronation criteria 1 y 3 { 18 document as a consultant with the Environmental Protection P
{n 19 Agency.
20 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. I would hope that some 21 knowledge of the subject under discussion would not be
() 22 I
ipso facto, disqualifying from the case.
23 l MR. EDDLEPAN: I think the opposite; but if you 24 won't cheat me, I would like to ask if he would supply a copy 25 of that document or tell me where I could get it, the l
! l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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3r4 1 coronation criteria.
O 2 JUDGE CAPPENTER: I haven't received a copy yet.
3 What the status of publication of. that document is with O 4 present hudgetary constraints with the Env1renmente1 e 5 Protection Agency I am not aware of, so'I don't know its 51
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$ 7: proceeding along through publication.
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$ 8 MR. EDDLEMAN: The people here or people up in a
ci 9 Washington that are coordinating this?
$ 10 JUDGE CARPENTER: Washington.
N 5 II MR. EDDLEMAN: Thank you, Judge.
3:
y 12 JUDGE KELLEY: One more point. Judge Carpenter's 3
Oj is diec1oeure of his grier centract work for CP & t -- that is l 14 not an uncommon thing for a judge to have had one kind of
{x 15 contact or another in the past with one of the parties , and g 16 the common practice then is to disclose those facts right out us I7 I front and then allow parties to make any comment that they see h
x M 18 fit. One specific thing that I did want to say is that I i:"
8 19 believe CCNC's response says the last sentence -- first
- n j 20 sentence says that -- well, I won't paraphrase. We agree 1
21 it's unlikely that your prior relationship with CP & L i
O 22 shen 1d interfere with your ,udgment in the shearon narr1, 23 proceeding. However, we would like to reserve our right to
- O '4 ! question y ur participation if something unexpected arises; 25 and Doctor Carpenter has made a full disclosure of the work i
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3r5 1 that he referred to and given you an opportunity to comment. ;
O 2 The point is when you have got a situation like this, 3 you clear it up right up front and you get it out of the way.
O 4 Then you go. We do not regard this as an open matter s 5 throughout the proceeding insofar as the matter that's been il
$ 6 disclosed, has been disclosed. We would consider that at R
$ 7 this point to be a dead issue because we got no objection, and M
y 8 I gather that Doctor Carpenter's remarks this morning on d
9 Mr. Eddleman's questions did not raise further questions in C[
$ 10 your mind, Mr. Eddleman. Is that right?
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$ II MR. EDDLEMAN: That's right.
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[ 12 JUDGE KELLEY: Right. So we regard that matter Ol13 then as closed and not something that can.be raised at any
! I4 minute later on. If there is some new indication of bias 15 on the part of any of us that for some reason we dion't 16 disclose, by all means, raise it. I don't think that will d
us h I7 l prove to be the case, but as to information that is out now, c:
{ 18 we regard that as having been laid to rest.
E l9 MR. RUNKLE: The Conservation Council accepts that.
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20 JUDGE KELLEY: Thank you.
21 JUDGE CARPENTER: I also thank you.
!O 22 <Eoard conferring, 23 JUDGE CARPENTER: Turning to another subject, iQ 24 yesterday we were looking at some contentions'that' involved 25 the possible leases of radioactive materials from this j
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r6 1l facility in which it seemed to me that it might be beneficial q i L' 2 for those intervenors with an interest in that subject who want 3 to put forth those contentions to perhaps have a chance to q
V 4 become more familiar with the Radway systems perhaps at one c 5l of the operating plants, and I wanted to ask whether there 0 ;
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was an interest in that, whether the applicant would be R
$ 7 responsive to that. Or if you have a resolution of it.
3
% 8 My point, it's difficult to visualize things when 0
9 you just read a document if you don't have much experience in 9
b 10 that area, and frequently it might be much more expedient to 11 have a visit and have a tour by a health engineer at an E:
A 3 l 12 ' operating plant and see what it's really all about.
i) 5::: 13 MPs . EDDLEMAN: Judge, I appreciate that, but u
l 14 personally I think I would rather look at their documents.
g 15 I went and copied a bunch of them off late last night.
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16 JUDGE CARPENTER: I see. I am speaking to
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{c 18 MR. RUNKLE: That was done at Three Mile Island s
19 just recently where many of the intervenors and applicant g
n 20 had a tour of the plant, and I think they took members of the 21 board at that time through the plant. I've read some of the i
'h 22 reports from the intervenors, and I don't think they got much 23 f out of it. I understand your point. I personally would 24
) rather not go through one. I would rather have my contention 25 s tand on itself and the docurrents .
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228 Gr7 1 JUDGE CARPENTER: Thank you very much. I guess no 2 response by the applicant is needed.
3 (Pause)
O 4 JUDGE KELLEY: Does that bring us then to the joint 5 contentions, the = subj ect of negotiations this morning? We g
E l2 6 had a number of people. I guess the board would like to have R
C tt 7 a report on what transpired, and we had ten or twelve of you E
8 8 at various times back there discussing. Jo the intervenors d
". 9 have maybe a spokesperson to lead off on this to give us their 5
10 perspective and then to the applicants?
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$ MR. PAYNE: In terms of negotiations this morning, a
f 12 at least the intervenors and the applicants have arrived at Oj i3 two cententions that 1 thina we a11 agree upon. One is with 14 respect to management capability. One with respect to steam 15 generators, and I'm not -- I'm not sure. Has the steam
. 16 generator one been given to the members of the bourd?
l h I7 ! JUDGE KELLEY: Yes.
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{ 18 MR. PAYNE: I believe you may have that in front of i
E I9 you and the intervenors accept that as a replacement for what s
20 is listed under steam generators in our joint contentions.
21 It's not very long.
iO 22 ,y0cs xsttEy: yays,you just re,,it int, the l 23 l record.
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You got a copy of it?
25 ; THE COURT REPORTER: I have a copy.
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. JUDGE KELLEY: The reporter does have a copy.of the ,
2 same document that the rest of us have. This one is entitled 3
Steam Generator Contentions, and it's ten lines long with some O 4 materia 1 stricken in the sixth 11ne asout a reactor 1m 5
g Yugoslovia. Is that the correct document?
6
@ E.-PAYNE: Yes. t G
$ 7 JUDGE'KELLEY: I think it would be helpful to type M
j 8 it into the record since it's short and you have a copy and 0
9 you can work from that,.
o 10 h (The discussed document follows:)
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STEAM GENERATOR CONTENTIONS Applicants have failed to demonstrate that the steam generators to be used in the Harris Plant are adequately designed and can be
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operated in a manner consistent with the public health and safety and ALARA exposure to maintenance personnel in light of (1) vibration problems which have developed in Westinghouse Model D-4 steam gener-ators in the MPFM^ 'Yr~cricrid """'^'" Pl=n*; (2) tube corrosion and crac ing in other Westinghouse steam generators with Inconel-600 2N et i tubesA carbon steel support plates and AVT water chemistry; (3) present de'tection capability for loose' metal'or other foreign objects; and
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(4) existing tube failure analyses.
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s 230 3r9 1 -JUDGE BRIGHT: I would like to clarify something.
O 2, JUDGE KELLEY: Sure.
3 JUDGE BRIGHT: On Number 3, the present detection O 4 cegebility for tooee metet or other fore 18 n objecte. Are e 5 you talking about what is proposed.to be installed at Shearon h
j 6- Harris or are you talking about the general state of the art?
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$ 7 MR. PAYNE: I think all:of these talk with regard
$ 8 to the proposals for Shearon Harris.
d d 9 JUDGE BRIGHT: And that would include 4, the
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$ 10 existing tube failure analysis?
11 MR. PAYNE: Yes, sir.
3 y 12 JUDGE BRIGHT: That's the applicant's analysis?
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]. 13 MR. PAYNE: Yes.
$ 14 JUDGE BRIGHT: Thank you.
15 JUDGE KELLEY: Anything else?
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. 16 JUDGE BRIGHT: That's all.
vs p 17 MR. EDDLEMAN: On that I certainly thing that if g
18 we think there is a better state of the art and can bring in l @
- 19
( g an expert on it to say that the existing is inadequate, that l
20 is going to proof, but that is not what the contention is 21 about.
22- JUDGE KELLEY: The contention references the 23 h Shearon Harris proposals.
24 MR. EDDLEMAN: Precisely.
l 25 i JUDGE KELLEY: Right. Maybe we should ask the i
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,l 3r10 I l staff next what their view is of this contention that's been s
(~j g 2 stipulated to oy the -- I guess I will come to that -- j oint 3kintervenors.
14 Who are the underwriters of this contention?
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(_) 4ll I think I know, but it should be clear in the record, but I
'j 51 will ask the staff next.
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6l MR. BARTH : Your Honor, we are not certain, but it R=
E 7 is our understanding that this replaces all of the contentions M
y 8, proffered by all of the petitioners regarding steam generators.
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MR. BAXTER: I was going to ask Mr. Payne if he o
10
- $ would read into the record the number of the contentions that
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II 5 this replaces.
a 12 N MR. BARTH: Since you asked me to comment, I did.
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, My problem is that I did not go through all of the proffered z
I4 j contentions one by one and therefore ask the question in a
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more general way to encompass any numbers that might have been y 16 left out on the summary by inadvertence.
z h I7 ! JUDGE KELLEY: Are you asking for an opportunity to
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18 y@ file later comment?
19
- E MR. BARTH
- No, Your Honor. I am asking for a l
l 20 l direct answer from these people that it replaces all of the 21 steam generator contentions which were proffered with regard
(~} 22 l to whether they were enumerated on the summary of combined s.s 23 ], contentions or not.
24
(~) JUDGE KELLEY- Well, I think Mr. Payne is going to s_/
25 i do that.
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3rll 1 MR. EDDLEMAN: I will do it.
O V 2 JUDGE KELLEY: Or Mr. Eddleman'.
3 Okay. 'I have one comment-to make
.MR. EDDLEMAN:
O 4 . hen 1 do mine. That is why 1.m doing this. Steem g 5 generators'that are' subsumed'by-this are Change /ELP 29, 30, 6
3 6 i 31, 32, 33, and'74.
si Il 7 The list'of problems incorporated by reference from s
8
@ Eddleman 18 into 19 goes with this. Eddleman 19 goes with d
- 9 it. Eddleman 112, 113, and 114. There was one little thing 10 h that I should put in. We had a little controversy about
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$ experience with D2's and D3's. My understanding is that this is g 12 has been left open in the following sense, that the intervenors c
Oi' are welcome to put on evidence about the rattern of j
m I4 Westinghouse models not predicting accurately what would' e:
15
. happen inside the D2's and D3's.
y 16 There has to be a relationship to the D4's, and us I7 the applicants aren't giving up any rights to object. Is l
g 18 that correct, Mr. Baxter?
19 8
n FR. BAXTER: That's correct.
0 JUDGE KELLEY: I understand that.
21 MR. EDDLEMAN: And so these two are the other ones
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22
'Q .- that had steam generators contentions.
23 ' JUDGE KELLEY: Right. So Mr. Barth's question, 1
l 24 Does this subsune all the steam generator contentions?
25 And I think the answer is yes. Right?
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4 4
3r12 I MR. PAYNE: I wasn't paying attention. What was m I (V 2 the question?
3 JUDGE KELLEY: Does this contention that has just O 4I been put into the record subsume ett of the steem generecer 5 tube contentions that are submitted?
g n
. j 6 MR. EDDLEMAN: To be clear, Mr. Chairman, all the e7
- 2 7 health and safety ones. I have some that go into the l G l [ 8 commission that will be under 2758 and that way.
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& 9 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay, i y g 10 MR. PAYNE: I think -- you know -- just to make 1I it absolutely clear, what it subsumes -- I can't a
j 12 speak -- I have not -- I am not saying there is any -- I have E ,
Oi' not in exhaustive fashion gone over Mr. Eddleman's contention, b I4 but it subsumes everything that was proposed in the joint b
15
. contentions.
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JUDGE KELLEY: Okay.
A I7 i l h MR. PAYNE: If there is something that is -- you
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20 JUDGE KELLEY: That should help. So let me just 21 ' get back to you, Mr. Barth. I think your question has been 22 Q answered. With that answer in hand, does the staff have a l 23 i position on this contention?
24 MR. BARTH: Yes, sir, Your Honor. We have read 25 , the contention which was discussed among the petitioners to ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
i 234 s
r13 1 'i intervene and the applicants and the staff has no objection O 2 I to the edmission er this as reg 1ecing e11 or the groceered 3 e contentions as regarding steam generators, Your Honor.
O 4!
1 auoce xsttsY: 1 thinh that says the seme thins.
5 Do you have any obj ection to its replacing all of the joint g
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the joint contention document given to us yesterday?
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4c1 235 1 MR. BARTH: I have no objection to replacing that.
[v 2 JUDGE KELLEY: This steam generator tuo part?
3 MR. BARTH: Correct, Your Honor.
4 May I point out part of the problem? We were also n -5 given a radiological monitoring contention yesterday. Eddleman 6l two is missing from that. That's why I'm trying to be u
E 7 careful as to what I commit myself to. We were given a s
j 8 management capability contention yesterday. Eddleman, d
9 forty-one, forty-two, and forty-three were missing from that, C[
b d 10 from the list. That's why I'm trying to put this in general y
j 11 terms of steam generator two contentions rather than in terms is 12 of numbers.
O j$y 13 MR. EDDLEMAN: Mr. Ch irman, 'll get to that when
$ 14 ' I go _over my contentions, but you should assume if it's not 2 15 on the list it's not in there.
5 16 JUDGE KELLEY: All right.
]
I understand your point.
e d 17 Now, let us leave 'til the end the question of the 5
{ 18 effected condition a contention of this kind may have on I
E 19 g party status and who's endorsing what and who's in by virtue n
20 of this admission and all the rest. This will be sort of 21 a common question and we'll just have to just sort that out,
() 22 but let's see how the day unfolds before we go to that.
23 , MR. PAYNE: The other contention that was agreed i O V
24 upon by the intervenors and the applicants has to do with t
25 , management capability, which is the first contention. It i
l
! ALDERSON REPORTING CCMPANY, INC.
i 236' 1 is much shortened. If'I may, I think it would be easiest 2 again to read it into the record. I don't believe anything 3 ~was presented. It is basically the 'first --
, O 4 JUDGE xELLEY: Excuee me, you don'e heve ehis one o S typed up?
A.
- e. -
@ 6 MR. PAYNE:
No. If you look at the joint e7 6 7 contentions under management capability it is the first 3
y 8 paragraph of that which is one sentence long. There's a 0
6 9 deletion of one word from that paragraph. And then one more
$ 10 sentence tacked on to that, which is basically lifted from iG i
h 11 another portion of our contention; okay? And if I may read is y 12 l that into the record, I think it will be clear.
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Q y= 13 JUDGE KELLEY: Are you going to read the whole thing
$ 14 now or just the first paragraph?
$i 15 MR. PAYNE: Just the first paragraph and accompanying y 16 sentonce. My understanding is that that is the contention d 17 ! that was agreed upon.
, 5 l M 18 JUDGE KELLEY: Oh, okay. All right. Go ahead.
5
, E 19 MR. PAYNE : And that contention under management n
- 20 capability reads as follows: the applicants have not i
21 demonstrated the adequecy of their managing, engineering, O 22 operating and maineenance personne1 ee safe 1y ogerate, j 23 maintain and manage the Shearon Harris Nuclear Power Plant 14 as evidenced by their record of safety and performance at their 25 other nuclear power facilities. A pattern of management i
}
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
237 l 1 inadequecies and unqualified and/or inadequate staff is l
O 2 likely to be reproduced at Shearon Harris Nuclear Power 3 Plant and-result in health and safety problems.
O 4 And that's the contention that was agreed upon. If e 5 you'd like, I could repeat that second sentence more carefully.
5 h 6 MR. BARTH: Staff would appreciate it if you would R
$ 7 do so, sir.
R y 8 MR. PAYNE: It is basicdlly, if you look at the O
C[ 9 very last centence of the contention as drafted, the last
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$ 10 three lines, four lines, it's almost verbatim that --
E j iI MR. BARTH: I again request, would you please just is y 12 repeat it?
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- 13 MR. PAYNE: Sure. A pattern of management
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h 14 inadequecies and unqualified and/or inadequate staff is likely F g
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15 to be reproduced at Shearon Harris Nuclear Power Plant and g 16 result in health and safety problems.
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(( 17 JUDGE KELLEY: I think that gives us the
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{ 18 contention on the record.
E 19 Any further comments? I can go around the room g
n 20 again.
21 MR. EDDLEMAN: Mr. Chairman, would you like me to 22 read the list of what that includes?
23 JUDGE KELLEY: Yeah, sure. Go ahead.
g 24 MR. EDDLEMAN: Okay. This includes --
V 25 i MR. PAYNE : Turn your mike on, Wells.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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238 1 MR. EDDLEMAN: I'm sorry. I just don't believe 3
() 2 in using extra electricity.
3 It includes CIIANGE ELP numbers thirty-six, thirty-4
({} seven, twenty-one and twenty-two; CCNC, conservation council,
- 5 twenty-one; Kudzu four, five, six and seven; it includes 6
@ 6 Eddleman three, forty-four, 101, 123, 127 and 127X.
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$ ~7 That's a difference from what's written.
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c 9 combine either Eddleman 106 or Eddleman 42, and the pattern s
g 10 of whether construction defects at Robinson or Brunswick j 11 contributed to operating problems and whether that has B
y 12 a relation to Harris is, I think, on the same basis that 5
13 we were talking about before with these steam generators; (v~)=y -
l 14 I
that is, the applicants haven't given up their ability to U
15 object to it, the intervenors or petitioners haven't j 16 given up their ability to try to make the connection.
l M g 17 l JUDGE KELLEY: So we'll get to some discussion of d l 1
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18 forty-two and 106 later in the day?
C 19 MR. EDDLEMAN: Yes, sir.
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20 JUDGE KELLEY: Yes, sir. And they're not subsumed?
21 MR. EDDLEMAN: Yes.
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1 rg e 22 JUDGE KELLEY: Is that consistent with the
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23 1 applicant's understanding?
i 24 MR. BAXTER: No, sir. One moment please.
25 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay.
! ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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239 1l MR. BAXTER: Mr. Chairman, our discussion f
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2 specifically included contention -- Eddleman contention 3 106. Mr. Eddleman in our discussion specifically included
([) 4 that contention. It looks like to be a catch-all management n 5 contention. It incorporates dozens and dozens of others and P.
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JUDGE KELLEY: Can we lcok at the -- let me pull out M
[ 8 106 to let me --
d d 9 MR. BARTH: Could we all take five minutes, Your Honor, i
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3 11 MR. BAXTER: And it's on your own desk, Mr.
, s j 12 Eddleman.
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(} 13 JUDGE KELLEY: Well, let's take a ten-minute l$ 14 break. You might want a cup of coffee. We'll look at that, 2 15 too.
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g' 16 (Recess) e d 17 JUDGE KELLEY: Judge Carpenter is a member of the 5
{c 18 board that is now holding a hearing on the Shoreham, operating g 19 the license up on Long Island. He has to be there tomorrow n
20 and he'll have to leave today along about 4:00 o' clock or 21 a little later. With 'that in mind, we thought we would at 22 least like to get over those contentions in which he has j 23 : some special expertise, like health effects and monitoring.
3
!i 24 And how would you characterize it?
25 , JUDGE CARPENTER: Environmental, i i h ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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l 1 JUDGE KELLEY: Environmental contentions in the
(]) 2 broadest cense.
3 I think we can go ahead for. now on the joint one
() 4 and perhaps start this morning with -- we move next to e 5 CHANGE, but we might, if you could -- CHANGE, if you could M.
e, j 6 check your -- I guess your first twenty is what we'll speak e7 g 7' to first of all and see where we will go to beyond that.
E j 8 If you could check your environmental ones to follow up in d
d 9 that category, we'll make sure we get over them and we'll h 10 l get to Mr. Eddleman's environmental contentions after lunch
{? 11 no that we'll be over all those hopefully before Judge p 12 Carpenter has to leave and then what we may end up doing is E
(} 13 taking some of yours, some of Mr. Eddleman's, coming back j 14 to you to accomodate that. Okay.
E 15 MR. READc That would be okay. I haven' t broken E
f 16 them down that way, but I think a lot of mine will be e
d 17 l withdrawn or collapsed,about twenty-five of mine will be 5
5 18 collapsed into the joint contention.
4 -
5
- 19 JUDGE KELLEY
- It may not be that much of a problem, a
20 but in any event I want to flag it.
21 We left off on just what the stipulated management gg 22 capability contention included and we read off a number of G:
23 contentions and then the contentions that we read off were f- agreed upon, except that Mr. Eddleman indicated that in his 24 l 25 [ understanding his contentions 106 and forty-two were not a
! ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
241 I subsumed within the stipule ted contention, and at that time O 2 we broke to look, to look at these again and discuss it. We've 3 all read it up here and forty-two, Mr. Eddleman, doesn't
() 4 seem to be what we would think of as a management centention.
g 5 It talks about inadequecies.
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5 0 MR. EDDLEMAN: I agree with you, Mr. Chairman, and 7
y that's what I told the applicants. I don't think that's u
g 8 an issue.
O C 9 JUDGE KELLEY: Well, let me just turn to them. Our
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$ 10 reaction was that forty-two may be in or out on its own E
h Il merits, but doesn ' t? have much to do with the --
B N I2 MR. BAXTER: We don' t have a problem with that, E
(]) ym 13 Mr. Chairman. It's only 106.
h 14 MR. EDDLEMAN: And 106, what's going on there, there 2 15 was a misunderstanding of what list was what, that I had E
j 16 no chance to review, like I said on the record yesterday, e I i
, b. 17- 1 I' m going to let them have 106 and also 127X which is not s
M 18 on the original list in this, so 106 is subsumed in management
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g I9 ) capability now for me.
n 20 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. Then I think that gives us 21 the answer to that question.
() 22 MR. BARTH: Mr. Chairman?
23l JUDGE KELLEY: Yes?
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24 MR. BARTH: From the staff's point of view of the 25 training program these people instituted is directly part of i
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1 i their management. There's no question about that. How th'ay l '
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3 lO 4 to us corer-one e,d torev-two ere suotins mattereor the '
l i e 5 management capability and qualifications of these people. ...
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N e 6 JUDGE KELLEY: Well, in any event, Mr. Barth, it's e7 s 7 been hard enough to get where' we; are and we're going to looks
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1 j8 at them separately, and if you want to think of them as 1 1 ,3 6 9 management you're fre'e t'o do so, but 'we're not going to o
, g 10 disturb the present state of equilibrium over forty-two, c x v <
g 11 Nou, we,have a stipulation, as I understand it, E:
l g 12 between the intervenors and the applicants over the management 1 4
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! 14 me. t 2 15 Does the staff have a position on that contention?'
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. 16 MR. BARTH: Give us a moment. s
- v5 1 ti 17 Subject to our prior discussion, Your Honor, wa 4
- E 'l M 18 have no objection to' the replacement of the contentions that l _
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course, is; that we do take 22 exception to excluding forty-one and forty-two. fWith that .[1 23 exception we have no problem and do accept the replacement of.
24 ' all contentions regarding thb management qualifications with 25 3
the proferred statement by Mr. Payne Vh.ich was read into th$ '
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1 record.
O 2 JUDGE xEttEY: now, a Philadelphia lawyer mighe 3
distinguish between agreeing to the replacement of a O
4 oontention on the one hand end ob3ectins to it on the meries e 5 on the other, and I guess what I'm now asking is, given the N
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intervenors, does the staff have a position on the merits d 9 of that contention?
g 10 MR. BARTH:
i i_G We have no objection to the admission j 11 5:
of the contentions as read by Mr. Payne, sir.
12 N JUDGE KELLEY: Thank you. Okay.
! E i
OiI now, was steam generators the ther -- we've
{ 14 covered that. I'm sorry. We've covered steam generators 15 and management capability; correct?
g 16 v5 MR. PAYNE: Yes, that is correct.
!![ 17 ' JUDGE KELLEY: Did you get any further with regard E
18 3 to negotiation on the joint document submitted yesterday?
O g I9 e
MR. PAYNE: There were really no further discussions, 1
20 I no discussion of substance, regarding the health effects or 21 radiological monitoring this morning. I don't know exactly 22 Q ,here we stand at this point on those two areas in contentions.
! 23 : JUDGE KELLEY: Well, certainly the areas you did
!g 24{c,e,1e31c3ereveryse1pec1.1 25 hense, Mr. Payne, ccaer, ec yeo 3 eye ,
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' e that further discussion of some limited p
j ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
- 'i 244 1 period of time might produce a stipulation on those I
() 2 subjects or one of them or what's your feel for it?
3 MR. PAYNE: I think in. terms of the health effects,
() 4 the way we presented it, the contention, if you lock at I guess g 5 it's page three of' these joint contentions --
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j 6 JUDGE KELLE*I: Right.
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S 7 MR. PAYNE : -- the contention really is that first s
j j 8 paragraph, okay, that the long term somatic and genetic i
d d 9 health offects of the radiation releases have been seriously N
, g 10 underes timated. That's the contention. In other words,
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15 that, A through F, arc really a sort of basis, if you will, y 16 to support that contention. I don't know that we'd be willing W
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g 19 contention right now.
5 20 JUDGE KELLEY: And that contention subsumes five i
21 CHANGE contention 3, one Kudzu and one Eddleman?
- 22 MR. EDDLEMAN
- Actually it subsumes -- sorry.
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23 ' Started to say consumes -- subsection C, F, H, nine and ten 1
24 of my number thirty-seven as I road it. That was another
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25 thing I reviewed last night.
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1 245 1' MR. PAYME: In other words, it's listed on the 2 . list you're looking at as Eddicman 37D.- -That's incorrect.
I 3s Instead it's Eddleman 37C, F, H, nine and ten is subsumed O 4 in ehee.
I g 5 MR. EDDLEMAN: Nine and ten are sections of 37 the Pi h-6l !
way it was put together.
l 7 JUDGE KELLEY: I wondered. Okay.
E f, 8 MR. EDDLEMAN: And I was trying to make that clear.
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d 9 JUDGE KELLEY: What about radiological monitoring, v.
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b 10 Mr. Payne? Where do you see things in that regard?
II Negotiations hold out promise or not?
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f 12 MR. PAYNE: I mean, I have no idea. We're certainly 13 willing.
m 5 I4 JUDGE KELLEY: Can't talk about it, yes.
15 MR. PAYNE: I don't think we've ever really talked
. 16 about radiological monitoring so I don't have any sense of I7 I where we stand on those contentions right now.
18 JUDGE KELLEY: Let's ask Mr. Baxter.
g I9 MR. BAXTER: I don't think we're in a position now l
j 20 where any further discussion would be fruitful. We do not have 1
21 a very substantial disagreement on the health effects part.
22 Q We do on'the radiological monitoring. We'd like to just l 23 { address those objections and I think we'll be through then.
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25 3"o"*"" " **r-address those points,' or do you want to adjourn for further
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l 246
!, negotiation, Mr. Barth?
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(]) 2 l MR. BARTH: You called my bluff. No. We are 3 prepared to address thoce, Your Ucnor.
4
({} JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. Well, let's do that then.
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5 Mr. Payne, do you want to go ahead with health 6 effects and then with monitoring?
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! M l 8 MR. BAXTER:
,8, Would it be more efficient for me to O
d 9 say what we had problems with?
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j 11 what you have to say about contentions.
s j 12 JUDGE KELLEY: Fine.
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{) 13 MR-. BAXTER: We agreed to all of the restated
$ 14 health effects contentions, except for subpart D and I'm Y
{ 15 simply not in a position today to take a position. It's
- j. 16 new and we would just request the opportunity ten days after A
g 17 ; the conference to file our answer to it because I simply havn
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18 not had the people to consult with to take a position, but
$ 19 other than D we are agreeable.
R 20 JUDGE KELLEY: I think your request is something 21 that may come up for everybody at one point or another.
22 You're going to want to file something when we're through l
23 l here or something maybe in about ten days or something.
24 ge:11 set that at the end.
i O 25 You would be willing to stipulate except for date?
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ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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1; MR. BAXTER: That's right.
2 MR. EDDLEMAN: Mr. Chairman, the applicants, they've 3 been worried about me doing things that I didn't tell them O 4 1 wae soins to do. I have some of mine thee 1 thinx e=e e c 5 basis for that, toc, which I think would combine into it. The O
3 6 ones that I cite, the Wisconsin and Minnesota studies of the R
$ 7 Land Educational Associates Foundation, and I'll clarify that M
j 8 when I get to mine.
d k 9 JUDGE TELLEY: Okay. Let's go with what's here for 10 now, all right, and see where that takes us.
,5 II Staff, the proposition from -- well you just heard g 12 it -- is the joint contention as written minus the, and of O!' IA course with the intervenors retaining the, as far as they're b concerned.
2 15 MR. BARTH: Your Honor, the staff is opposed to
.j 16 the admission of the centention labeled health effects which v.
I7 has been rewritten. Let me read the first four lines so the
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{ 18 record will show what I'm talking about.
E I9 The first four lines are the long-term sematic 8
n 20 and genetic health effects of radiation releases from the 21 facility during normal operations, even where such releases O re within existing guidelines, has been seriously under-23 I estimated for the following reasons. That is the proffered language, Your Hcnor.
(O") i 25f The commission's regulations in l'0- CFR part twenty h
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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1 set forth the permissible releases of radiation which may es l
(,) 2 l be tolerated by society. We are bound by those and any 3 inference that those are incorrect and should not be applied in this case is an attack upon the regulations and may
(]) 4 g 5 not be permitted unless theredise.a special showing 10 CFR 2.758.
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@ 6 The contention very clearly states that where R
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$ 7 such releases are within existing guidelines this is not
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j 8 good and must be litigated. Uc cannot litigate the effect d
d 9 to society of releases uhich are within the permissible 1 $
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$ 11 which are set forth in part twenty. They are also set forth a
j 12 elsewise in the regulations such as the lovest rates to be E
13 achieveableffor worker dose during~ operations.
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$ 14 Secondly, a reading of this in its totality states
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E 15 that society, including the commission which is holding this 5
j 16 hearing, has not properly addressed or understood or estimated A
f 17 the somatic and genetic health effects of radiation. This 5
{ 18 is a matter apart from the radiation to be released as P
i E 19 permitted by the commission from the Shearon Harris facility.
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! 20 We are nell aware that there was a great split in BEIR III, 21 B-E-I-R, III, regarding the somatic and genetic health 22 effects. -
l 23 : The argument of linearity or quadratic effects
, 24 as diminishing dose appertains is well known. The licensing 25 , forum for an operating license for the Shearon Harris i
f i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
j 249 l
1, f acility is not the proper forum to try to resolve a matter n
() 2 which has not been resolved by the National Academy of 3 Sciences over the last twenty years. It is beyond the purview
() 4 l of this licensing board to try and untangic or resolve the ia 5 issue which splits the academic community on BEIR III as to
$ 6 the genetic and somatic effects of radiation.
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2 7 In summary, by its own terms, the proferred M
[ 8 combined contention challenges the limits permitted by the d
0; 9 Nuclear Regulatory Ccmmission in 10 CFR part twenty to M
@ 10 release radiation; and, secondly, it goes beyond the g 11 purview of this licensing proceeding which is the Shearon u
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5 14 academic community and the National Academy of Sciences 15
{= for twenty years.
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d 17 a licensing board with technical members. It seems that 5_
18 it is not appropriate for the licensing board or its h
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n technical members to undertake to resolve this matter 20 which has split the academic community for years; therefore, 21 we think that the proferred combined contention is beyond J
22 'the purview of the notice of hearing which sets forth the
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23 Farameters which we can hear. It is not a matter 24 particularly related to the Shearon Harris facility. It 25 { goes beyond on that basis and is clearly a direct attack h
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O 2 emiseed trcm the shemrom nerris reo111ey durime norme1
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251 Srl 1 JUDGE KELLEY: Mr. Barth, are you familiar with
- O. 2 the co mission s decision in B1eck rex, 1980, ruh11c service
! 3 Company of Oklahoma, 12 NRC 264?
- O 4 MR. 8ARTH
- Not av name, Y -r Ho- r.
g 5 JUDGE KELLEY: It seems to say under certain i 0
- @ 6 circumstances we can litigate health effects in these cases.
- fi j Q. 7 MR. BARTH
- I think that you will -- if you will
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i j 8 read the third line, they are talking about releases within d
c 9 existing guidelines. 4 y 10 JUDGE KELLEY: Right.
$ 11 MR. BARTH: And they are challenging the 5:
y 12 commission's permissible releases.
i 5
1 Q 13 JUDGE KELLEY: No, they are not. Not the way'I i m 14 5 read it. I thought they are saying that when the -- when 5
15 the mistake has been made with regard to the health effects g' 16 , that will occur as a result'of these releases and the impact A l l ti 17 l statement in Appendix I, according to the comission in I y
{ 18 Black Fox didn't address health effects.
P 19 MR. BARTH: I think here, Your Honor, we differ.
n 20 JUDGE KELLEY: Well, I commend that decision to 21 your study.
I 1
22 Q MR. BAXTER: I would make just two additional 23 'i comments. We made reference to that decision and it does i
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l Fr2 I i of the issues , and that is something we keep in mind and hope
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() 4 clarification point.
l c 5 JUDGE KELLEY: Let me stop you there for a minute j 6, because I think it's a point we were discussing a little bit G -
$ 7 this morning. Uhat do you understand to be the record in R
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11 read the statement or the BEIR report or just what are we a
j 12 l supposed to read?
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15
{= JUDGE KELLEY: Record?
j 16 MR. BAXTER: Yes, sir. And a lengthy one, e
,( 17 l JUDGE KELLEY: Maybe you could spell out. We
= #
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19 ' of the rules. I am sure they don't have the record in that n l 20 case. Are you following -- are you with me on what I'm 21 talking about?
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22 l (Mr. Payne nods affirmatively.)
23 ',
JUDGE KELLEY: I assume if you went to the record
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l 3r3 1' kind of generic change on which elaborate findings were made, 2 the applicants, the staff might argue well, we have sort of 3 beaten that to death in the rule-making, and there is no point l
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in doing.it here, bue if you have something newer, you might y want to bring in testimony, and you might be able to show there 4 e.'
3 6 is nothing in the record; but I want to get at the practical
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8 You say there is an elaborate evidentiary record there?
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J 10 h JUDGE KELLEY: Not just the impact statement and
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12 MR. BAXTER: That's right.
Oi' JUoos x ttsv: um-hum.
b I4 MR. BAXTER: My firm happened to be involved in a
15-that. It was before my time. It's not a recent record.
16 There is testimony from live witnesses and et cetera.
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i h 17 i JUDGE KELLEY: Yeah.
l f18 MR. BAXTER: And we have examined the -- the e 19 g literature cited in the proposed contentions here and all n
20 postdates that record. We will not be starting from scratch 21 already in that sense. We kept in mind the commission's 22 guidance when they did this. It will be up to all of us to 23 bring forward what the record says to the licensing board l 24 when we litigate it from both sides.
25l MR. PAYNE: I think that it is our contention to i [
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9 15 g conclusion that the Nuclear Regulatory Commission _ insufficiently 16
- considered health effects when it arrived at Appendix I in I7 l h Part 20 releases. Then under this assumption this cannot be
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i j ! the commission's regulations. That is done. If we agree 20
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21 a matter beyond the purview of this board to consider in our 22 view as a matter of law.
23 JUDGE KELLEY: Why did the commission in Black Fox 24 tell the board that they could litigate these very matters? !
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C 4 JUDGE'KELLE': .Okay, i 5 n (Pause) 0 5 6 MR. EDDLEMAN: Mr.. Chairman.
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$ 7 MR. BAXTER: I had one clarification point on the 6
g 8 language of the contention. I think we discussed it, but we l
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is i j 12 sources cited in the contentions.
5 Oi' JUDGE KELLEY: All right. Well, yeah, Mr. Eddleman.
, 14 MR. EDDLEMAN: You may be getting this, Judge.
I 15 I was wondering if you had raised before the question of 16 l -d getting this appendix record in the local public document us I7 l rooms down here. I have spent several hundred dollars at 18 If this thing a nickle a page getting stuff from the NRC.
I9 is 20,000 pages, that is a lot of money.
8 n
20 JUDGE KELLEY: Several of us are blanching at the 21 suggestion. Let me look into it.
22 Q MR. EDDLEMAN: I assume the impact statement is i
23 ' not a problem.
I 24 JUDGE KELLEY: I don't know what the BEIR reports l
25 l amount to. Can't you get the BEIR report in Chapel Hill?
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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256 76 MR. EDDLEMAN: Some of the university libraries 1 -l' O 2 do have them.
3 JUDGE KELLEY: Yeah. Well, okay. Let's see O 4' where we ere then on -- enythins eise2 e 5 JUDGE CARPENTER: I just would like to make a fu
$ 6 couple comments which might be put in the category of being-R
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11
@ MR. EDDLEPAN: Judge.
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13 how you have degrees in linearity.
14
$ MR. EDDLEMAN: Now, I'm going to probably wave my U
15 hands here because it's like the old thing about describing j 16 a spiral without moving your hands, but there'are dose w
17
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{ 18 effects that you get -- whatever the health effect is. I am E
19 sure all of us are familiar with that, g
n 20 Let's say the radiation dose is going along the 21 baceline, and as you go across the baseline, the dose goes 22-Q up, and then the response goes straight up.
23 : Okay. Now, a linear one is obviously a straight 24 line. The quadratic one that I believe Mr. Baxter I believe 25 is talking about comes up with a lower slope initially and
. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
a 57 4r7~ l then comes up more sharply farther out on the higher doses.
O 2 The sugra11near response that 1 am ca1xing asout which has to 3
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'a 5 above a straight line and then more or less levels out into 0
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!!. 7 JUDGE CARPENTER: Well, that's why I'm asking the Z
g 8 question. I would term that convex.
O C 9 MR. EDDLEMAN: Yes, sir. It's convex.
10 JUDGE CARPENTER: Is there a virtue to this II terminology of supralinear?
12 MR. EDDLEMAN:
N It's used in the journals like a
Oi' Health Physics to distinguish it from the quadratic, the 14 linear, and the threshold theories.
ie 15 JUDGE CARPENTER: Thank you for helping me.
g' 16 One other item under Item D. Since we are going us I7 to be reading lots of pieces of paper from various people, h
18 I get frustrated with a reference. It gives me a title and a 19 g a year. I am very fortunate to have the NIH right down the n
20 street, and I have no problem with library facilities, but I
-21 need an adequate reference so I can go and read the material.
22 MR. PAYNE: liy understanding of that reference was 23 l that it was a paper presented in Congressional testimony. I 24 ' am not sure that it is published and readily available.
25 ! JUDGE CAPPENTER: I use this example just to make ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
- 258 1
5r8 1 the point that I might have spent a half a day in the NIH
() 2 library looking for this.
3 MR PAYNE: I believe there is a discussion of 1
() 4l Doctor Sternglass's fi~ndings in the literature.
)- e 5 JUDGE CARPENTER: My point is the reference to P.
6 let the reader find the document if he.has. proper library a e. -
$ 7 -facilities.
j 8 MR. EDDLEMAN: I share that frustration. I refer i d I C 9 to the book Secret Fallout which I believe references this.
, g 10 I don't know who the publisher is, but I have a copy of it at z
11
@ home, and I can give it to you.
B l y 12 JUDGE CARPENT'R: E I was trying at the beginning i
5 a
13 5
a of the proceeding to make this clear that well-spent-time of 1
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, p 17 Lotchin.
5 b' IB JUDGE KELLEY: Mr. Payne, where are we from your P
19 g
n perspective on the radiological monitoring?
20 MR. PAYNE: I assume we are going to proceed-21 through them and --
22
({} JUDGE KELLEY: That's right.
23 , MR. PAYNE: -- and there are four separate 24
(]) contentions there. Excuse me. Various of the intervenors
.25 k had sort of primary authority for drafting those, and I think i
t i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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,Sr9 1, that we will just take them, whoever had that responsibility
, O 2 will discuss them. I basically drafted what is listed as 3 Roman numeral III with respect here relying on the TLD's O 4 ebout the site. 1 wou1d ser that in suggert of th1e
- e 5 contention that in their -- in the papers that they filed ,
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j 6, in response to Mr. Eddleman's first set of contentions that R .
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d 9 of the ground rules that they laid out is that there were
(; 10 sort of two ways to establish basis.
11 A plausible reference to authority, which I think is y 12 we just did in the health effects one; or, two, a reasonably 5
i Q m 13 logical and technically credible explanation that establishes 5 14 the basis; and I think that is what this one is.
1 g 15 I have tried to lay out why in our opinion, in the j 16 intervenors' opinion, the TLD's that are proposed to be used us f 17 are inadequate, that they just do not serve the purposes that 1
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18 they may be called unon to serve in the event of an accident, s b 19 and that they should be replaced with different devices that j g i
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20 my understanding are available, and 1 think at this time that's 21 about all I have to say with regard to this contention.
I 22 JUDGE KELLEY: Any questions?
_Q 23 : JUDGE CARPENTER: I'd be interested in hearing the l
l 24 applicant's response to whether they feel the intervenors' j 25 perception of the applicant's plans are accurate as outlined I
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_ _ _ - . = _ ~ . .- _ _ - . . - . _
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O 2 na. 3xxTra . Thenk you, sir. 1his contention, 3 Roman III,'really is simply a restatement of elements of
- O 4 nr. eddiemen's 1.end 2. end 1 note thet it's myeterious to
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$ 7 whole paragraphs and sentences right out of those and Kudzu-M l 8 contention 4, and what we said in response to those three --
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g g 10 the intervenors are addressing a purpose for the TLD's for 11 which we have no intention of using them. They are talking
- 5:
(5 12 about emergency response decision-making and the information 13 that is needed to do that, and we have described in our f
l$ 14 FSAR, in the TMI appendix, and Sections 11.5 and 12.3.4 the 15 real time effluent monitoring that will be provided by
' 16 applicants at all significant release points in the mobile d
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17 area of radiation monitoring' capability.
{ 18 The contention, if you will, sir, it's like setting 5
19 up a straw man and then fighting it. It's like saying the g
20 wind is inadequate to cool the core, and we are not relying 21 on the wind.
, 22 In addition to that, they have given no basis for
[ 23 the alleged inadequacies in the TLD's for the purposes we 24 are intending to use them; but the major point is that they are
-25 i talking about a purpose that we do not have in mind and do not i r
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I 5ril 1 ! rely upon at al?.. So it's the same contention and I have O 2 just repeated what we have said in our papers.
3 MR. PAYME: If I might respond just briefly.
-O 4 With regard to the monitors and various effluent sites, the a 5 reference in this contention to Ginna or however you pronounce 8
@ 6 that -- in.the accident there in my understanding is that G
$ 7 radiation leaked into the auxiliary building and from there si j 8 got it out, and that was not'a normal effluent site. There d
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g 10 is in fact one of the ways we see the need for this.
11 The other aspect of this is that in terms of their i::
y 12 remote monitors -- I do not recall the number of them --. but 3 -
13 there was a very small number for the emergency remote z
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15 the event of an emergency; and as I recall, I think only j
. 16 two, but I could be mistaken about that; and that again, I uf y 17 i guess our position is that those are just inadequate in the
, E r 18 f event of an emergency, you got to haul them out there before
! 19 you can begin to get information.
20 MR. BAXTER: I would contend, Mr. Chairman, that 21 Mr. Payne is simply factoring incorrectly about his statement l 22 about the releases at Ginns and TMI were not detected by 23 in-plant monitors.
24 JUDGE KELLEY: Insofar as this is an emergency 25 , planning aspect, I think I asked you before whether the 1
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d 262 ll Sr12 I l on-site plans were already complete in the FSAR -- and forgive
-m h Q 2 lmeifIamnot clear on what your answer was.
3 MR. BAXTER: We would be filing on-site plans
{') 4 later this year. The FSAR material I recognized to -- they I
g 5 are --
0 i j 6 JUDGE KELLEY: Insofar as this is an emergency E
' 7 j planning contention, are we going to have additional
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y 10 MR. BAXTER: It will describe what I said we are Il
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! 14 described elsewhere in the FSAR and make reference to them.
15 JUDGE KELLEY: Why isn't this just premature at j 16 this point?
x y 17 MR. BAXTER: Because it's not going to say much 1
, 5 18 more than that. I think that equipment is already in there.
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1 21 the FSAR right now?
I 22 MR. BAXTER:
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l 5r13 1 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. Staff, do you have any U, 2 comment, please?
3 MR. BARTH: Yes, sir. I think the answer to the O 4 suestion 1e it's noe premature heceuse the emersency viens es s 5 developed by the two. counties and the applicants will have I
0 l j 6I nothing to do with the use of thermaluminescent dosimeters E7 at the time which are in place around the site. Let me go ei j 8 through this if may very briefly.
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p 12 reading of the dose. They do not provide continuou-g 13 reading. This is also true. They have to be retreated.
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15 Thus, in the event of an accident involving j 16 i
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h release point, the TLD's are inadequate to determine the i :::
l { 18 emergency sheltering in the evacuation plans. This is E 19
, g also true. But it does not therefore follow,Your Honor, er 20 because there is lack not only of -- lack of any middle term j 21 that they should have real time monitors for accident purposes.
22 This just is a non sequitur, the entire contention. It does 23
, not comment on the development of emergency plans by Wake 24 County or Chatham County nor to determine whether the 25 i thermaluminescent dosimeters which are proposed for the site
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1 O 2j Their gurgese is confirmetory monitoring, end 3,1 they are adequate for that purpose. There is no showing i
O 4< that they are not. We do not feel that the contention s 5 really makes any sense, and second of all there is no basis
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6 to -- no basis provided that the thermaluminescent dosimeters E2 7 placed on the site cannot adequately perform their function.
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11 MR. BARTH: I think in Perry, ALAB, which I cited 5
i y 12 carlier, the specific allegation must be made as to what is E '
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m 5 14 Whether it's true or not is a matter of proof. There is b
15 no allegation that the things will not perform their function.
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19 of their functions is to provide information in the event of g
n 20 an accident, and they are alleging that that won't be fast 21 j enough, and the applicants are telling us they won't use
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23 MR. BARTH: We stipulate they will not use them 24 for accident information.
25 JUDGE KELLEY: Stipulate they won't provide ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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1 3rl5 1 accident information.
() 2 FR. BARTH: To determine if emergency sheltering, 3 evacuation plans should be implemented.
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i e 5 MR. BARTH: Correct, Your Honor. It's not.
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$ 8 JUDGE CARPENTER: I would like to hear the response d
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13 I don't think we need to cite some other document that says x
g 14 TLDs, nonremote reading, if everyone agrees that is true, so 15 the basis of this contention, at least the. logical reasoning 16 in it is agreed upon and self-explanatory, and it is in fact 6 17 l -- we maintain that with respect to the two incidents at TMI
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l 20 radiation that was getting out into this immediate 21 surroundings, that the effluent monitors were not adequate 22
{) to tell you how much was really getting out there and that 23 the information as a result -- as a result of those failings li ;
24 at TMI, no one I don't think is absolutely clear on how much 25 i got out, so I think that these dosimeters will ultimately, if i
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i 266 Er16 Ii there is an accident, be used to measure that function or will 2 try to do it; and the information won' t be there. No one will 3 really know.
O 4 (Pause >
I g 5 JUDGE KELLEY: Mr. Baxter, where does this take us
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3 6 in your-view? When you have a contention that says a e7
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$ perform that function.
10 way. Where do we end up? Taking that to trial and hearing h
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iis j 12 MR. BAXTER: No, sir. I think there has to be E
Oi5m a basis set forward by the petitioners as to why the 14 equipment we have proposed to use for the function that's .
x 15 addressed here is inadequate. Then we will talk about whether
.[ 16 we got to get something else or upgrade the TLDs. I think v1 bi II , the contention lacks basis altogether because it has not
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n 20 JUDGE KELLEY: And once again, that equipment is l
21 described in the FSAR?
22 MR. BAXTER: In the sections I cited earlier. Yes, 23 sir. And those sections did not address the information to 24 the extent I can see.
25 , JUDGE CARPENTER: Have the intervenors taken i
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$rl7 1 cognizance of the reference section of the FSAR?
O 2 MR. EootEniN: Judge. that is why my 1 end 2 3 aren't in there. I will present reformulation. I'm going O. 4 to present a reformutetton which tekes into eccount that g 5 information which is intended to take into account the 3 6 information I took care of in my June 28, '82, amendment.
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& 7 (Board conferring)
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g 8 JUDGE KELLEY: Let's move on to IV. That a
d 9 Mr. Read will deal with for the intervenors.
$ 10 MR. PEAD: As respects the use of the TLDs and j 11 the dosi.eter, that's at Section 12.5 I believe. We have s:
g 12 just discussed the --'I believe the staff -- the applicant's Q 13 , objection to this originally was that it lacked basis, and
$ 14 there was no alternative proposed. We have discussed this, 15 and we have now proposed an alternative.
.'j 16 I believe we have met their objections on that.
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{ 18 JUDGE KELLEY: You may want to respond, but go P
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20 MR. BAXTER: Mr. Chairman,.this IV is the son or 21 daughter of Change Contention 35; and as we said there, TLDs 22 are widely used throughout the industry' and accepted by NRC Q
23 and other regulatory bodies for monitoring occupational 3
24 radiation exposures.
1 25 Now, the contention does say they lack real time i
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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G ft 7 Further, while an alternative has been written 7.
j 8 down, there is no showing made either in theory or in fact d
9 as to why that would -- that monitoring capability would be 0
10 an improvement or why it's necessary, so I still take the-h
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{c specificity.
Oi' JUDGE KELLEY: Is there any NRC rule which puts I4 some kind of formal blessing on these TLDs?
e je 15 MR. BAXTER: I am sorry, sir. I didn't get that.
j 16 JUDGE KELLEY: Well, I'm just wondering how the v:
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rules stand in this regard. We have rules on monitoring M 18
- I gather. Is there a rule that explicitly states that a 19 j TLD is an adequate device or is the company allowed to use 20 l any one of a number of devices as long as the design 21 objective is achieved?
22 l Q (Pause) 23 ;
MR. BAXTER: As best as I understand, the
' 24 li regulation does not specify.
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obj ectives .
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3 269 4r19 1 JUDGE KELLEY: This; isn't an attack on the rules?
O 2 MR. sixTER: He.
3 JUDGE KELLEY: And an intervenor couldn't use O 4 somethins elee -- and you set into somethins es to whether 5 it's specific or not,.but it's not prescribed by rules, g
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{ 8 MR. BARTH: In our view, Your Honor, there is no O
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20 are not used and some sort'of real time devices used instead?
21 How would that protect workers?
22 MR. READ: I am not really too clear on that, 23 : Your Honor -- the exact health consequences of that. I i
24 l think Mr. Eddleman might have a better response. This:is 25 ~
i not something I was planning to testify to myself.
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O sg 4 MR. O'NEILL: Mr. Chairman, could I respond to that s l g ' 5 ' Lbecause I think I understand what their contention is ,
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22 O JUDGE KELLEY: There was a question I think,
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10 How about Number 5, the calibration?
h II 5 MR. READ: Again, this is something that I did, is g 12 Your Honor; and again.it's something that I am not an expert O!' 14 on myselr> but as t undereter>a it from reeains accounts of-the Three Mile Island accident, I don't believe the rules 15 or the guidelines on inspecting the portable emergency 16 3[ response monitors have changed since then with regard to the us I7 frequency with which the monitors are to be inspected. We
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$r23 I I plus or minus five percent will work out to about once a O 2 month er so for ca11bration.
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Et b 7 MR. BAXTER: Not to my knowledge. I don't know a
j 8 of any particular lesson learned that goes to that. This a
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@ 6 -JUDGE KELLEY: Staff?
67
$ 7 MR. BARTH: We have no difference from the T.
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9 the commission's CLI 81-36, the Comanche Peak, in which the
[; 10 commission states that a contention to be admitted must set 1 z 11 forth the basis to be admitted with reasonable specificity.
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. 5 13 now projected is inadequate. No more comment.
$ 14 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay.
15 JUDGE BRIGHT: Mr. Read, where did you get the j 16 information that applicant only intends to inspect and i
17 calibrate these air monitors annually?
{ 18 MR READ: I believe that's at FSAR 12 -- let i:
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19' me start from the beginning. It's at FSAR 12.5.2.1.7.3.1 20 and also 2 in place of .1 at the end. A .2.
21 l JUDGE BRIGHT: And it makes an explicit-statement i
22 of annual?
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23 l MR. READ: That was my understanding from reading 24 it, Your Honor, i 25 l JUDGE BRIGHT: Oh, look. Thank you.
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~5r25' I JUDGE KELLEY: Let's go to VI now.
O d 2 MR. PAYNE: -Unfortunately, on VI Mr. Eddleman 3 was the lead drafter. He has been carried off by a local
. O 4 official here. I hope he is not incarcerated. I expect 5
e g him back. I think it was a parking problem.
6 3 6 If you will defer that for a moment. I think that Et
$ 7 is the only_ thing remaining on the joint contentions.
M 8 8 JUDGE KELLEY: We can figure it up. He can d
o; 9 speak to VI, and we will do that. Either when he comes g 10 back or when he is on this afternoon.
$ 11 MR. PAYNE: Sure.
M y 12 JUDGE KELLEY: Should we move then to the other E
Oi 13 change ELP contentions that have not so far been discussed l$ 14 under the heading of the joint contentions? Is that the g 15 next order of business?
g 16 MR. READ: Your Honor, you had expressed some i A 17 interest in taking care of my environmental contentions now.
l .h 18 JUDGE KELLEY: Yeah.
' E l9 MR. READ: 1 just looked through my contentions g
n 20 quickly, and as near as I can tell, the environmental 21 contentions which would be ripe for consideration now --
22 Q in other words, it wouldn't be deferred pending the issuance 23 i of the environmental statement -- have allbecn subsumed by (g 24 these -- by these joint contentions , and I'd be willing to
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$ 7 let me just say for the record we received from the seven a
j 8 petitioners here numerous contentions. Most of the d
9 filings though -- most of the supplements to the petitions l= 10 ran anywhere from twenty or so contentions, and our reaction la II was that we can cover that on about an' equal split of time, lo 12 so we will just plan to go over each contention in that Qf x 13 group of I think five petitioners. We had two petitioners 5 I4 Change /ELP and Eddleman who had well in number beyond that.
b 15 Change /ELP had 80, and Mr. Eddleman had 140, and we said we j 16 don't know if we can have oral discussion or what, so I am x
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20 l on the ones that you thought most needed that kind of 21 treatment, so we would plan -- and you did supply us with 22 a list of twenty of your eighty or so contentions that you 23 : thought shou 1d come up front for purposes of oral discussion, 24
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$r27 1 We might then take about twenty from Mr. Eddleman
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$ 7 MR. READ: Your Honor, because -- because of the ei
$ 8 fact that twenty-five of my contentions have been subsumed a
9 c; and the fact that numerous other contentions are challenges E
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11 contentions, I propose as an alternative that I begin at the g' 12 top and run through them. I think it will take the same 5 -
13 amount of time to do that.
l$ 14 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay.
l 15 MR. READ: If there is no objection.
16 3l JUDGE KELLEY: Does that seem reasonable, w
17
( gentlemen?
18 MR. BAXTER: Yes, sir.
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$ I9 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. We have got by the way about a
20 twenty of twelve.
Say again that we plan to break for lunch 21 right about twelve and come back at one. We will have 22 some time for the gentleman who is going to come in for 23 : c A N P and then back to you.
24 Mr. Eddleman, we had gotten to VI on Page 5, the
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,5r28 1 you were the chief draftsman of that, and so we look to you 2 for initial comment and then reaction and then rebuttal.
3 MR. EDDLEMAN: So you want me to start off on O 4 it2 s 5 JUDGE KELLEY: Yeah.
N j 6 MR. EDDLEMAN: Well, this -- one -- a lot of G
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j 8 that thing, and it said we rely on dedicated microprocessors.
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16 if if it doesn't, it doesn't say at all. It just says this
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1 And I think that's the -- that and the fact that they
() 2 don' t have the ability to detec,t specific radionuclides and 3 amounts being released on most of it.which we've gone back O 4 and torta on te, due we nave our vosition end the e9911cente e 5 have theirs. That's pretty much the basis of it.
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j 8 components?
d ci 9 MR. EDDLEMAN: Well, for example, there's some
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p 12 minutes they don' t know anything and, sure, if they know a 3 13 that's out they probably know something's wrong, but they
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20 and, you know, based on what information they- gave, and I l
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23 that, you know, they're supposed to -- they're supposed to 24 state their basis of what they've got in there and I think 25 l I know enouch about electronics and computers to say it's not l !
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3 Mr. Baxter?
[] 4l MR. BAXTER: fir. Chairman, you discouraged us a 5 yesterday from making set speeches in this proceeding, but 0
3 6 as we pointed out in our response to Mr. Eddleman's big R
$ 7 petition at the beginning of our response, the appeal j 8 board's Wolf Creek decision and other fundamental processes, d
d 9 due process, entitles us to know what the issue is.we're 8,
(; 10 supposed to defend against and on which we might have the 11 burden of proof, and that's at the hearing, and I guess 2:
j 12 for prehearing conference purposes I have to also consider 5
13 that I'm really responding to uhat's written down here in z
s I4 front of me rather than a lot of new discussion about 15 specific systems that fir. Eddleman may be prepared to j 16 recito off the top of his head.
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4 282 6c3 1 They have nothing to do with each other. ALARA is for 2 planned activities and expected operational occurences 3 whereas the contention sentence .also speaks about emergency O 4l responses.
5 We have no allegations as to what specific g
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5 7 which is equipment qualification, and that's a whole 6
-g 8 I don't different submittal that's discussed in the FSAR.
d 9 know what components we're talking about, why they're not N
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C 15 b JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. Staff?
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j '8 JUDGE KELLEY: Mr. Eddleman, further comments?
d C 9 MR. EDDLEMAN : Uell, first I'm -- this was the v.,
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39 g somewhat if we talk about what Mr. Baxter's been saying 20 about the use of the in-plant monitors and one is to give 21 the emergency response personnel warning or information that 22 Q they need to plan and act and that may be something that 23 needs to be deferred. There's also the idea that it's not I ,
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20 MR. PAYNE: Your Honor, just a moment. This may 21 take just a quick minute.
O l Y u've d ferred a dis ussi n ab ut how these 23 . contentions would affect the status of the various four I
24 parties that are the source of the prime movers behind these 25djointcontentions. I'm not sure but what we could deal with A
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$ 12 would have no affect on Kudzu. Likewise, I believe that 5
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22 JUDGE KELLEY: Well, it is -- take some comments, 23 , here, too, but it seems to me it has at least two practical 24 f implications. One practical implication is you need one s !
25 good contention to be a party to the case; Okay. That's t
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(]) 2 3 ruled upon, say it's discovery. Now, does that give us four 4 different intervenor groups making discovery on steam generators
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e 5 or whatever? That's a separate question.
E h 6 MR. PAYNE: Yeah. It's different.
R 8 7 JUDGE KELLEY: I'm not sure we can decide that 7:
j 8 right now, but it is a question and you can't just blindly d
d 9 say this is the way it's going to be for all purposes.
$ 10 I still haven' t been able to eat lunch. Could you j 11 not come back after lunch?
a j 12 MR. BAXTER: No. Mr. Chairman, I think it's a 5
() 13 very simple point. It's who's responsing these four
$ 14 contentions in this document; is that right?
2 15 MR. PAYNE: Yes.
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. 16 MR. BAXTER: If we could just ascociate the groups d i d 17 with each one of them it wouldn't take but a minute.
M 18 Health effects is CHANGE, Kudzu and Mr. Eddleman.
5
$ 19 MR. PAYNE: Yes.
n 20 MR. BAXTER: Is that correct?
21 MR. PAYUE : Yes.
22 MR. BAXTER: And management capability is all four?
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23 MR. PAYNE: All four.
s 24 MR. BAXTER: And monitoring is CHANGE, Kudzu and (d'
s 25 i Mr. Eddleman?
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() 2 MR. BAXTER: And steam generators is CHANGE and 3 Mr. Eddleman?
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2I JUDGE KELLEY: It has to have a purpose from the
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25 MR. ELZTER: Well, I can' t foresee all the ways in l
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f 289 6cl0 1 which this may have a bearing on the conduct of the
(]) 2 Proceedings, but I think we genuinely shouldn' t ascribe two 3 people who don't advance interests in subject matters we're 4 going to be litigating.
(]) I think that' all these -- all these e 5 four petitioners over there we've been discussing have 9
@ 6 uncontested party status as far as I know from the staff and R
F3 7 applicants' standpoint.
E j 8 JUDGE KELLEY: Uncontested standing on everybody d
d 9 that came in.
- /
h 10 MR. BAXTER: No. I mean party status, including
@ 11 one admissable contention.
B p 12 JUDGE KELLEY: Have we gotten to that? I haven't 5 '
{) 13 added them up.
$ 14 MR. EDDLEMAN: I think we have.
2 15 JUDGE KELLEY: I think after this morning we have; E
j
. 16 that's right.
w d 17 l MR. BARTH: CANP we do not agree with that.
N
{c 18 JUDGE KELLEY: We haven' t reached CANP or Ms. Lotchin.
t-g 19 We're going to reach CANP after lunch.
n 20 MR. BAXTER: And we do not consider Dr. Lotchin to be 1
2I l a party of any of these joint contentions and her petition 22 ought to be denied.
)
23 JUDGE KELLEY: And Dr. Wilson's had an omitted 1
- 24 contention yesterday, at least one, a
25 l MR. BAXTER: Yes, at least the staff and applicants b
P
!I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
j
6cll 290 1 have cgreed to one.
1 0 2 avoor xsttsY= so the gerty contention agare f=cm 3 CANP and Dr. Lotchin is not really an issue at this point.
) 4 MR. BAXTER: That's right.
g 5 JUDGE KELLEY: I'm still unclear as -- I don't j 6: mind going to lunch unclear. Let's just do that.
- ?
E 7 (Luncheon recess) 3
@ 8 JUDGE KELLEY: We're back on the record.
d d 9 We expect, as I mentioned earlier, a spokesman from i
O G 10 CANP. He's not here just now, as I understand; is that iG g iI correct?
i:
.j 12 Mr. Cowcjell is not here yet, but he will be along, E
Q 13 I think, and when he~ does come we'll interrupt things to
$ 14 allcw him to appear for a while.
2 15 I think we had gotten to the point where CHANGE ELP 5
y 16 was just going to start with number one and move through in us i d 17 l light of the fact that some of your contentions had been 5
y 18 subsumed and others may be withdrawn and we'll see -- in terms i:
19 of time we'll see where that takes us, but for an hour or so n
i 20 let's try that.
2I MR PIAD: I think Mr. Runkle has some comments 22 to address to the discussion which was left sort of as I 23 understood it somewhat open-ended on the joint contention 3 24 number -- what number is it, John? Five?
(V j 25 ; MR. RUNKLE: Four IV. That deals with the use of I
il
- ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
291 1 TLDS.
2 JUDGE KELLEY: Right. Were you -- you happened 3 to be out when we got to that matter; is that what happened?
O 4 MR. RUNKLE: whee hepgened 1s, they were going g 5 to reference us to the FSAR and they did reference to N
@ 6l FSAR section 12.5.3.6.1.1, which states that they will G
8 7 use different kinds of dosimeters on their personnel, including s
j 8 the pocket dosimeters, the personal -- the personal moniter, then a
d 9 they'll use the TLDs or they'll use film badges. And thgy
$ 10 said these will be issued as appropriate under 20 CFR*202 --
5 no -- 10 CFR 21.202 which refers to personnel monitoring,
{is 11 I
y 12 I think that the contention IV should stand as is.
Olis 14 The a9911oenes have noe assured us whether -- whether ehee these TLDs will be used as appropriate. The regulations E 15 allow them to use whatever, any number of different film 5
.g* 16 badges, pocket chambers, pocket dosimeters, film rings, and 7:
d 17 I assumo that also includes TLDs, but we are not surc 5
M 18 besides a bold assortion that it's industry -- industry 5
[n 19 practice that personal dosimeters will be used over a TLD.
20 JUDGE KELLEY: Any comment, Mr. Baxter?
21 MR. BAXTER: No.
I
- t 22 JUDGE KELLEY
- Okay. Then with your further s
statement we'll be taking that -- we'll just take it 23 {
Q C
24 under advisement on that basis.
25 MR. RUNKLE: All right. Contingent stands.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
6cl3 292 1 We' re not withdrawing the contingent.
() 2 JUDGE KELLEY: Right.
3 MR. READ: Does that mean I'm up now?
O 4, JUDGE KELLEY: Right, you' re up.
i e 5 MR. READ: Before I start, if you'll tolerate one M
n h 6I general ccmment, we've had quite a few comments by Mr. Barth
! R
$ 7 and by Mr. Baxter and O'Neill to the effect that we should M
j 8 be very specific or should form our contentions with, quote, d
d 9 clarity and precision, etc, and from reading the FSAR I
$ 10 think they're applying to us a standard which they really 11 haven' t applied to themselves in terms of normally we will E:
p 12 do this, we will do that, etc. , which seems to be quite E
13 frequent in the FSAR.
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t
$ 14 If I'might cite the WolfaCreek opinion which both the i
15 staff and the applicant have relied on, I believe a closer j
. 16 reading of that opinion indicates that the matters dealt us
! ti 17 with therein were contentions which were advanced by E
{
l 18 experienced counsel, and as a second year law student, and
, P 19
{
e this is my first NRC proceeding, I can't really consider 1 20 myself experienced counsel and I hope the board would take 21 that into consideration when considering my contention.
22 in.CHANGs ELP tontentions p" Contention number one in my -
23 has been subsumed by the health effects.
24 Contention number two deals with the environmental 25 effects of operation of the plant and I believe it should be I
l
, a ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
l 6c14! '
293 o
1I deferred until such . time as the staff has prepared its
() 2 EIS.
3 Shall I just continue?
C 4 JUDGE KELLEY: Let me suggest you -- could we have e 5 a sort of understanding between yourself,.Mr. Read, and Mr.
$ 6l Barth and Mr. Baxter, particularly on things that seem to be, R
$ 7 you know, withdrawn or pretty clear. You make a statement, s
[ 8 if I don' t see a hand raised you can go on to the next one.
r) 0 9 On the other hand, if you want to make a response let me g 10 know and if it's obvious a response is called for I'll look 11 to you for one. Is that all right?
E:
l 3
12 MR. BAXTER: Yes.
O5 v =
13 JUDGE KELLEY: Yes.
l 14 MR. BAXTER: To the extent contention number two 15 is considered to be an environmental contention by Mr. Read j 16 that process is acceptabic of deferring it until the impact i
!$ I7 I statement. I didn't read it as one, frankly.
E 16 f JUDGE KELLEY: Do you view it as an environmental
- I9 s contention?
n 20 MR. READ: Yes, sir.
2I JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. Yes.
22
('N : MR. BAP.TH: We disagree and we oppose the contention, bl I I
23 Your Honor. The first three words are the applicants have 24 failed. They're talking about the applicants. They're 25 ll not talking about the staff's documents. And from our point 0
f i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
i 6c15 j, 294 l
1I of view the applicants have not used Wash 1400 in their O 2; ene1ysis ane we ahtee hy our original response that this 3 contention should not be allowed. It has nothing to do with The first three words, the staff is C) 4l the staff document.
c 5 not yet the applicant.
A 6 JUDGE KELLEY: Isn't it true, though, that when fou h
$ 7 issue your impact statement pursuant to the commission',s j 8 policy statement the staff will be assassing the impacts of d
d 9 a serious accident?
i
$ 10 MR. BARTH: Insofar as it goes to environmental U.
5 II you're correct, Your Honor, and I have no problem with a 3
- g. 12 deferral on that part. On the other hand, I'm sitting E
here reading the contention about the applicant's failure.
OiIm Well, I'm pointing 'out that staff s 14 JUDGE KELLEY:
4 2 15 will have that document and some of the debate on deferral E
j 16 becomes kind of pointless in the sense that I assume that we ;
e f 17 could deny this contention or you can withdraw this contention, 18 and even if you did either of those things when the staff came i:
e I9 out with their impact statement if they had some new matter n
20 in there you could make a contention about it.
21 MR. BARTH: Well, we agree, Your Honor, with that 22 statement of the law.
Q ;
23 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. Well, I think your 24 l, understanding about deferral is satisfactory.
25 , MR. READ: Okay. Contention number three is a h
lh :
b ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. ,
1 .
6c16 '
295 1l challenge to the ten-mile standard. I believe we've already
() 2 discussed that sufficiently and when the emergency plan ccmes 3 out I'll either withdraw that or rewrite it based on new
(]) 4 information in that plan.
g 5 MR. BAXTER: It remains our position that contentions R.
j 6 that clearly challenge rules should be excluded by the board R
$ 7 now and that applies to all of them -- the emergency planning M
g 8 included.
d d 9 MR. BARTH: We join, Your Honor.
$ 10 MR READ: Contention number four.
3 11 JUDGE KELLEY: Just a minute. I'm still not . clear i
j 12 what difference it makes. Let's suppose we defer a ruling 5
13 on three and there's later contention having to do with some
(]}
$ 14 aspect of this which we didn't rule on. Why should we 5
2 15 deny it now?
=
g' 16 MR. BAXTER: Simply because I don' t want any A
17 3 petitioner or party to have the impression by the' ' fact that the
{ 18 board deferred the rule that they might someday get an P
19 acceptable contention in this proceeding challenging in a g
n 20 major way the commission's rules. I think they ought to be 21 told now that they are not going to and if they are going 22
{) to pursue some other remedy like a 2.758 petition or a rule-23 making petition they get started with that effort and not i
24 harbor any false illusions that some day they might be able 25 i to get that.
Ii ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
6c17 296 1 MR. BARTH: We join with the statement, Your Ecnor. j O 2 1 thinx it wou1d be aggropriate to eefer such pare of ehme 3 as does not challenge the rules and get rid of the rest of O 4 it riehe nou.
g 5* JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. We can handle that, I think.
0
@ 6 Go ahead.
R
$ 7 MR. READ: Okay. Contention number four addresses s
[ 8 a number of site specific emergency problems and to the d
d 9 extent I think the same treatment I think should be given
?.
@ 10 to that one as was given to number three.
$ II JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. Next?
M N I2 MR. READ: Contention number five, I'd be willing s
Oi' to withdraw that-l$ 14 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay.
15 MR. READ: Same for contention number six.
E I0 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay.
v5 I7 , MR. READ: Contention number seven also a cost h
=
{ 18 benefit of construction, I'd be willing to withdraw that.
F 19 8 JUDGE KELLEY: Right.
n 20 MR. READ: Contention number eight is' an 21 environmental impact s tatement, or it will_ go to the 1
22 l environmental impact statement when that document is 23 available, and I think in light of Mr. Barth's previous 24 challenge to that applicant's wording I'd be willing to 25 l change that to staff if he's willing to concur in tihat.
i s
i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
6cl8 1 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay.
O 2 Mr. aarth2 i 3 MR. BARTH: It's not okay with us. We haven't i
O 4l maae ear ==r==eate so you cea'e ear it's iaaaeauate- 87 its e 5 own terms it's a non' sequitur. It's got to have some kind P
j 6 of order in the thing. We have not failed adequately -
R
$ 7 to consider long term effects, Your Honor.
N g 8 JUDGE KELLEY: I think the purpose of this d
C; 9 really under the circumstances 16 for the intervenors to z
o y 10 say that they will be looking forward to reading your II treatment of these matters and may well revise this 5
E:
j 12 contention so as to raise questions about it if they 5
.2 13 find it inadequate, 5
s s: .
l$ 14 MR. BARTH: I accept your statement of it, Your 15
{:: Honor.
E I6 JUDGE KELLEY: Is that fair enough2 us I7 MR. READ: That's fine, yes.
IO JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. And it will be deferred C
g I9 and you will see what you think of the discussion when you -
n 20 see it.
2I MR. READ: All right.
22 l Ccntentions nine and ten -- or contention ten I'm 23 willing to withdraw. Contention nine I believe goes to a O 24 challenge of the applicant's and the staff's analysis of 5120G V
25 ,
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- ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
\ V 6cl8i #
298
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I one and two, especially paragrap'/ tuo of that regulation, andk.,
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O I wou1a be w1111ny
-- do you wene -- can we defc= thav-une11 A > i a.
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t 3 later.and come back to number nino?
Ii O 4 3uo0s xzttur= rou said you'd witadraw ten, bue you +'
1
, s,
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5 wanted to --
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n 6 ;i ' .< * '
@ MR. READ: To pursue number,nind,,
R /
8 7 JUDGE KELLEY: To pursue nin'c'. Is this -- I'm reyc ing c .
l 8 it myself again. This is at least in;palt a legal )
0 ,. i - +
d 9 argument, isn't it't
? +
- s. -
s.
10 MR. READ: Y6d. .
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- , i; '
11 1 // /t h JUDGE KELLEY: Does this tableya, p: yfhere or does u .
d 12 it not?
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'j,,I-
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Mr.. READg Yes. -
.. i h 14 JUDGE KELLEY: And 'then yon look at the rule and Y :' ' ,
15
{: you debate that and pour pos'ition is it d,oesn't?
g' 16 '*
MR. READ: Yes. f us J
P 17 , JUDGE KELLEY:
=
I believe the position -- both,dhe
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- t. )
- F . .L M 18 applicant and the staff argde6ThhatiTable S4 applies to thaf ,, I g ;;, '
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, , t^
{5 19 transportation impacts of spent' fuel in this case 7
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20 ,
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MR. BARTH: The staff takes the position, Your Honor, I
21 subject of course to reviewing the staff memorandun on
/
22 Catawba to which you refoyred to. ,/
23
' JUDGE KELLEY: ' E::cuse '
me. Give me that agaih.
f ,
24 MR. BARTH: Yov laskcd us to look at the transportation 25 j memorandum for Catauba. ,, I am saying we will do that as part of t
- this*
i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. #
5 6c19 9 299 I MR. O'NEILL: Just to make our position cicar, 2 we do agree that Table S4 applies to the environmental tz .
l
/ 3 impacts of the transportation of spent fuel frcm Harris to 3 4 wherever it goes. We also hava made our position on the g 5 record that we do not believe that the transportation of
~ g
, 3 6 spent fuel from Brunswick or Robinson to Harris is recogni::able 57
$ 7 before this board in this proceeding.
6 .
, , . ,- y, 8 JUDGE KELLEY: That, too, is a le7al point; right?
d C 9 MR. O'NEILL: Correct.
i e
$ 10 JUDGE KELLEY: What I'm wondering is , let's assume N
11 that you' re right. Do we have a contention here? We've got B
g 12 a legal argument, that's for sure, but if you're right does o c v,
Q( 13 this then mean that in your view there is a detailed
! 14 analysis required and it's not there? Is that essentially i
j 15 j what you' re --
M .= +
l M4 IhI -l MR. READ: That would be the optimum result, f, d' .17 l Your Honor, yes.
(? yr I
{p 18 [ JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. I just wanted to be sure I9 what it is we're dealing with, h
n i
i 20 Comment, Mr. Baxter or Mr. O'Neill?
2I MR. O'NEILL: No further comment.
I l
22 I JUDGE KELLEY: All right. Anything else then?
]-
23 ; .
MR. READ: Would you lika for me to submit a brief 24 on that question, Your Honor?
f f, 25 , JUDGE KELLEY: If you wanted to submit further
., ] p j l j', il ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
Gc20 ~
300 1 comment under what we'll call provisionclly the : ten-day O 2 ru1e you can gue thae ee item one en your 11ee and then 3 befora uo quit we'll go over who's going to file what and O 4 when. I would think that it's something that might bc
.e 5 helpful to have something on; otherwiso I think we can go h
j 6 ahead.
R
& 7 MR READ: Okay. Number cloven I'm willing to Z
f 8 withdrau as a challenge to the ccmmission's regulation.
0 ci 9 Numbers twelve, amended twolve, thirteen A, and B
$ 10 for the same reason.
g 11 JUDGE KELLEY: Thirteen A is in another document?
is y 12 MR. READ: Yes, it is. It was submitted, I believe, S
l 13 on about the 28th of May. May 24th, excuse me.
$ 14 JUDGE KELLEY: The thirteen A and B is withdrawn, 2 15 you say?
E
]
. 16 MR. READ: Yes.
W
(( 17 Number fourteen I do not wish to withdraw at this 5
5 18 time. Unfortunately, I don't haito the expertise with mc
=
- 19
- to back that up --- back up these specificity objections n
20 that both the staff and the applicants made to it, so I'm 21 afraid I'm going to have to let that one go before you as is 1
! 22 lforruling.
23 JUDGE KELLEY: You can submit it on the papers, 24 just go ahead on that basis then, right. Is that right?
] 25 [ Yeah. Go ahead.
I l
b ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
301 6c21 1 MR. READ: Okay. Nurber fif tenn would be, a O 2i cha11enge to the ragu1aeton= as we11.
l 3! JUDGE r.ELLEY: That's withdrawn?
O 4 uR- nr^o: res-g 5 Number sixteen, because of the nature of the E I j
6l allegations that have been made in number sixteen and because e7 b 7 of the way that I have received this information and the el j 8 fact that the information that I received -- the sources I O
9 received it from were not -- did not feel that it would be g 10 advicable. for them to specify exactly what the allegations 11 5 were or exactly who they were, I think at this stage the is j 12 contention should be ronitted because I have no legal means 13 Q of compelling discovery on this point and I don't want to 14 force -- well, I can' t.
As a matter of fact, the ' people 2; 15 from whom I got this information, I don' t wish to bring ij 16 i
their names into the open exactly as stated in the
- I
! h I7 ! contention for fear of reprisal.
IO b JUDGE KELLEY: Well, we as a board have two concerns E
l I9 '
3 about this contention. One is the usual one of whether e:
20 ! it's a valid contention or not. Quite apart from that, though, 21 llthis is a very serious charge. It charges threats of 22 reprisal by management, presumably of the applicant, for 23l coming forward on safety issues, and I'd like to ask, Mr.
24 Barth, do you know whether these charges or charges of this 25 h nature have been investigated by I and E, inspection and F
l
!i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
6c22f 302 II enforcament arm of the NRC?
O 2 mR. esR,y, Ycur noner, may I address your 3
question at'a later stage? At the first break I would like 4
g . consult with our inspectors on this matter. Thank you.
e 5 JUDGE KELLEY: Fine. Thank you. Bring it up e'
3 6 G
later on this afternoon or if we're here tomorrow morning
'd 7 that's all right. I just wanted to know whether the NRC el g 8 C
staff is on top of whatever is going on here if something 9
seriously problematical is going on.
o 10 h Mr. Baxter?
=
II s$ MR. BAXTER: Just two points. I didn't understand g 12 Mr. Read's bottom line. ,
13 Q m You e::plained the difficulties you have and then 5 I4 5.
what did you propose at the end be done with the contention?
15 MR. READ: Well, my proposal is to the extent that y 16 i,
us it's possible I would liko to have legal means of compelling
"" 17 '
discovery on this question.
j d As it stands right now I can' t
\
M 18 s develop any information essentially without some cooperation j 19 from CP&L, or from the contractors at the sitei l
20
! JUDGE KELLEY:
This kind of thing I know has arisen 21 i
in various other cases, almost precisely the same thing where 22 there is a statement that there are plant employees or former 23 '
iplant employees who have information and yet they're afraid 24
- about losing their jobs or whatever and I don't mean to -- you 25 i
iknow, it's a serious matter and it does have to be locked at.
^
l
!, ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
6c23 ;
4 303 li I j The exact way in which it's done in a contention context t
$ 2 l I confess I'm not familiar with in any detail sitting here n
3 h this af ternoon in terms of disclosure of names, in terms of g 4 whether it becomes a valid contention without names and so on c 5 and so forth. We've got what you've got here and you've told
?
3 6 l me why you're not going any further this af ternoon. I think k ;
s 7 we have to consider just what we would do from a contention U l
[ 8 I
standpoint.
- .)
ci 9 Mr. Baxter, do you want to comment further?
y I 10 MR. BAXTER: Well, two things. Firs t , the office s i j 11 of Inspection and Enforcement does have means for dealing is j 12 , with anonymous allegations, and if there have bcon any E
gj -
I 13 l reported to them and they've investigated them, they would
$ 14 be reported fully in a report that's available in the public 5
E 15 document room, so I would think that if this matter has been E
]
. 16 brought to their attention they've investigated it and thoro A
(E 17 is material available on it, but, secondly, I guess I don't 18
{ understand, if we can't get anything written in the contention P
- $ 19 l now because of the problems of Mr. Read's confidential n
20 l informants I don' t see how he's going to conduct a discovery il 21 !l against us either if he doesn't knew what to ask about. It U
22 seems to me we're in a totally circular problem and I g
23 ' cortainly can't agree to the admission of a contention we 24 don't know anything about for uhatever reasons.
25 JUDGE KELLEY: Uhen I asked Mr. Barth does I and E a
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
a 6c24 i 304 I: know about this, that was sort ofnquestion=1. And if the g 2 U answer was no, they never heard of it before, then the 3
board would say then look into it and ccme back and let us
() 4 know what is going on. So that's a step that's available 5
to you, but I thought first we'd just find out whatever
- f. 0l information's available to you this afternoon so that we e
b 7 would know where it stands.
7.
E 8 n I understand what you're saying, and I don't know d
c 9 j
. if we can add a lot this afternoon beyond that.
S 10
$ (Board discussion)
=
2 11 g JUDGE BRIGHT: There have been some cases uhere d 12 E this sort of thing has come up. Generally the way the boards e
d 13
( s have handled it, the -- at least the boards that I have been E 14
- concerned with, if you can present specific instances of e
2 15 g weld deficiencies or bad concrete or whatever in sufficient
. 16 g detail with sufficient documentation then the board has p 17 4 g_
usually looked kindly upon requiring the applicant and the M 18
= staff to look at these concerns and report back to us as a
- 19 g contention. Now, that's just for your information, Mr. Read.
20 MR. READ: Okay. Thank you.
21 If the board would give me, say, forty-five days to try
([) toy develop it and if I haven' t developed it by that time I' 1 23 ,
- be willing to withdraw the contention.
24 '
() 25 ;
f MR. BARTH: Your Honor, before I reach a decision I have talked with our resident inspector who is here and we li ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
6c25k 305 l
1! have looked into welding, but we have -- as an agency. We hava E
()
-~
2 l had no information that nonconformances were being held back or 3 secreted or bad practices because of threats to job security or
's 4 personal security.
(^J
~
l 3 5! JUDGE KELLEY: Let me ask, Mr. Read, I think you
$ 6 ! said this. I just want to make sure I understand.
G 8 7 Are you willing to get b~ack to your sources who s
j 8 were concerned about their names being revealed and getting a
d 9 more specifics about uhat they're concerned with and coming
-i o
G 10 back with the specifics without at least at this stage
$ 11 revealing their names?
B j 12 MR. READ: I'll certainly try to do that. Like N .
13 I said before, if I can't do'that within a specified time,
(~]
xs @ a
$ 14 say forty-five days, I'd be glad to withdraw the contention.
2 15 JUDGE KELLEY: As a next step how does that strike N
g' 16 you, Mr. Baxter?
w d 17 i MR. EDDLEMMi: Mr. Chairman?
E 5 18 JUDGE KELLEY: Just a minute.
=
F
$ 19 MR. BAXTER: We are anxious to know whatever M l 20 information Mr. Read's got. I think it ought to be passed .
21 along to the NRC office of Inspection and Enforcement as well I
22 i if he notices any problems in that regard.
r-) I would hope it
(_/ l 23 j doesn't take forty-five days for him to get this information 0
73 24 [j together. I'd like to see it done on some shorter time N] h 25 l frame.
c f
k ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
e
- 306 6c26 5 1 JUDGE KELLEY: What about thirty days?
l O 2i MR. REND: That.s okey.
3 MR. BAXTER: Fine.
4 JUDGE KELLEY: If you could then provide whatever s 5 you can in the way of specifics to the board and the j 6 applicants and the staff and to the parties, and again a
$ 7 without any need at least at this point of names, I think n
j 8 that's a useful next step and I don't think we have to do 0
$ 9 anything else in the meantime, and we'll see what that E
D 10 produces.
$ 11 MR. READ: Okay.
is N 12 JUDGE KELLEY: Thank you.
5 13 MR. BARTH: Your Honor, I would like to add one
$ 14 further comment. Because of the very great problems 15 yr I've pointed out in this matter, if there are threats by j 16 CP&L personnel to employees to withold information from the m
17 ' NRC,I think he'd be well advised to report to our office 5 18 of Inspection Enforcement. It is not a joking matter. It's E
19 a very serious matter..
g n
20 MR. READ: I'm fully aware of that.
2I JUDGE KELLEY: Thank you, Mr. Barth.
I 22 l Okay. On to seventeen'.
23 ' MR. READ: Seventeen is a challenge to the 24 p, regulations as I read it and should be withdrawn.
V I 25 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay.
4 i
i J ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
307 6c27 I MR. READ: Eighteen I'll withdrau on the merits.
' 2 JUDGE KELLEY: Oh, yeah. Mr. Cowgell frcm CANP 3 is here and has just a brief time.
(s_m) 4 That takes us through ' seventeen. Could we 5 interrupt you for a minute to hear from Mr. Cowgell?
g e.'
R b 7 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. Can we take just a moment 7.
ej 8 to get the' relevant papers here? Just go off the record 0
- 9 for a second.
10 h (Recess)
=
,5 II JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. We can go back on the record.
c f= I2 Good af ternoon. You're lir. Cowgell; is that
{} m 13 correct?
5 I4 MR. COWGELL: That's correct.
15
. JUDGE KELLEY: How do you spell your last name, sir?
j 16 MR. COWGELL: C-o-w-g-e-1-1.
J.
H 17 l g JUDGE KELLEY: Right. Thank you.
=
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- Now, I understand from what we heard yesterday C
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- 8 that you would be coming in to speak to one of the contentions n ,
! 20 I guess it's number of which you were a principal author.
21 seven; is that correct?
!!R. COWGELL: Yes, that's correct, seven.
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23 ! JUDGE KELLEY: Well, maybe I can just say a word 24 about our fornat. Generally speaking, perhaps very generally,
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25 i the proponent of a contention such as the one that you have ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
6c28 308 I will take a few minutes to perhaps summarize and e:: plain the O 2 thrust of the coneention if thee., wertented, ehen we.11 3 have responses from the counsdl for the applicants and coun O 4 counset for the une seef t, then you wouta nave a onance to n 5 respond to them. During any of those points one of us may
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@ 6 interrupt with questions. The main purpose is for us to G .
8 7 get a good fix of what's being said by all concerned and 3
p, 8 answer questions that we may have so we can go back and d
d 9 make an intelligent decision on whether the contention should
$ 10 be admitted. With that, why don' t you go ahead?
@ l1 MR. COWGELL:- All right. Thank you, is y 12 I have a brief statement which I'll read which 5
] 13 recasts contentions 'evefyy briefly and also makes a brief m
5 14 response to applicant's response.
15 JUDGE KELLEY: Can I just -- I'm sorry. What do g' 16 we have in hand? You filed a written response just the us ti 17 other day. Was that one of the three?
5
{i: 18 MR. BAXTER: Yes, sir. Yesterday morning.
t.
g I9 JUDGE XELLEY: Okay. And the staff does not c.
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I 20 at this point have a written response filed?
' 2I MR. BARTH: That's correct, Your Honor.
22 JUDGE KELLEY: All right. Fine. Thank you.
23 i Go ahead.
24 MR. COWGELL: Thank you. In planning for the safe
- 25 l operation and maintenance of Shearon Harris Nuclear Power Plant i I
!i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
l
i 309 Cc29' 1 over its useful life applicants must take acccunt of presently O 2 evident circumstances.whose probable future course will 3 directly and substantially change the operational contention Q 4 of Shearon Harris Nuclear Power Plant, particularly if such e 5 a change might threaten applicant's ability to safely maintain
@ 6 and operate Shearon Harris Nuclear Power Plant.
R
$ 7 The apparent economic disintegration of nuclear 3 -
l 8 technology and the current political trends toward the reduction a
d 9 of government regulatory and support services are two G
G 10 such circumstances which require the applicant's seriouc 11 attention as possible threats to their ability to safely B s 12 operate and maintain Shearon Harrisi.
l 3
13 Absent this attention citizens against nuclear
$ 14 power feels the applicant's provisions for the safe operation 2 15 and maintenance of Shearon Harris are seriously deficient.
s j 16 The substance of our contention is not to argue the facts us d 17 of these two developments. We contend, rather, the simple 5
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18 fact conceded implicitly by the applicant's response that g 19 applicants have not given prudent attention to matters which n
20 appear to directly affect their ability to safely operate 21 and maintain Shearon Harris.
22 Applicant's response that our contention is, quote 23 : unquote, vague is therefore off the mark as is also their 24 assertion that this contention lacks, quote unquote, 25 i specift.ity.
l!
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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- Its basis would seem to lie at least in part in
() 2 the applicant's obligations to quality assurance. An 3
unavailable part is no less poor than a defective part.
() 4l We find the applicant's assertion that our contention y 5l is, quote unquote, philosophic to be vague. The issue is 9 j 3 6! quite concrete and of immediate relevance. If the contention R
$ 7 appears broadly drawn it is because the scope of its a
g 8 implicaticns is broad. It is the applicant's burden to 0
9 determine if and to what extent these two developments will 0 10 g impact their safe operation and maintenance of Shearon
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Harris to show how they are prepared to accomodate such 12 N developments so as to safely operate and maintain Shearon a
- 13
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Ilarris .
E I4 That's the end of my prepared statement.
_b 15 JUDGE KELLEY: Thank you.
16 Let me go to the .other c.,unsel and then you'll F 17 d have another chance to respond.
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M 18
- Mr. Baxter?
P 19 j MR. BAXTER: Mr. Chairman, I think to a great 20 -
extent Mr. Cowgell and the applicants are still talking 21 past each other. I heard him say today that he doesn' t I
understand our response and I must say I still don't
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23 understand his contention. At best I guess we might be 24 8 talking about new federalism and the allocation of major
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25 l governmental responsibilities down to smaller units of J ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
i 6c31 I 311 govl government, and on the other hand some pool of technical
(] 2 resources that are becoming spread too thinly. To me 3 these -- if that's what the contentiens are we're talking C 4' about political or legislative concerns that may well be i 5 sincerely held but really have not been provided with any 8
3 6 nexis to issues that are before this board in connection G
E 7 with the operating license application that can actually 3
j 8 be litigated. So we stand by our objection of yesterday f)
C 9 morning.
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$ 10 MR. BARTH: Your Honor, to us the contention 11 is more in the nature of a limited appearance statement 5
is j 12 stating that CANP basically feels there are problems in c
13 the nucicar industry. Beyond this we have no comment, m
g 14 Your Honor, We do not feel iti meets the characteriz ation 15 of 10 CFR 2.714 for a viable contention.
j 16 Just as a side matter without humor, of course, vs 17 the fewer applications the agency has had the greater the
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{ 18 government has poured money into this agency so the ,
O l9 g economics have certainly gone up as far as the regulation n
20 gag 3, 2I JUDGE KELLEY: I guess one reaction that I had, i
l 22 Mr. Cowgell, was if you look at the many contentions that 23 f; have been put forward and those that havg been accepted in
, 24 the last day or two, there is a fairly limited focus which 25 f this operating license hearing takes. In some cases the
- s f ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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1 commission will adopt a specific rule excluding a certain l
O 2i kind of matte: that might otherwise be heard I guess to 3 maybe -- the clearest recent example which is the rule that l
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i texes aeea for gewer out or eneee neeriase- we 11e1 9ete e 5l need for power under construction permits, but the general N !
j 6l feeling is if you've gotten to the point of building the R
$ 7 plant then surely you need it for comething and going back
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8., through that oxcercise it doesn't make any sende. So it's d
9 just excluded.
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5 G 10 Some things we don't get into from the standpoint 11 of breadth,and insofar as we focus here on the integrity w
12 of the piping and the wiring and the concrete at that plant, N
c 13 those issues do indicate the main focus. I have some doubt
- n 5 14 about the capacity of this board to litigate the health.:of 15 the nuclear industry generally in the availability down the l g 16 line of engineers and technicians to service the plant.
m
$[ 17 ; I don' t know if we can get our hands around that.
5 I 18
{ MR. COWGELL: I would not expect you to, sir.
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$ l9 I would agree with the latter two remakrs. I tried to R .
20 emphasize in my remarks, and let me say again, it is not 2I our intention to contend and argue the facts of the 22 economic health of the nuclear industry in any respect or the 23 facts of political mcmentum toward reducing regulations at 24 any level of govenment, federal or local. Our contention l
25 l is ; hat there is -- if I may appropriate a legsl phrase 3 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
6c33 '
313 1 which has been common property now, there is probable O 2 l
cause for someone wse.1,prueene1y undertaxin,ese g1anmed 3 operation of a nuclear power plant for an intended useful O 4 11re or someenino more taan twenty yeare I wou1d ehinx.
e 5 I don' t have -- I don' t know what figure's currently b
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, , a l- f frl 1 JUDGE KELLEY: The usual license is forty.
2 MR. COWGELL: It would have to take professional 3 interest in the appearance of a disintegration of nuclear O 4 technetogy, having the cleer implication that there mer be 5 in the fut'are less easy availability of high quality g
@ 6 expertise, and uniquely skillful engineering accomplishments R
$ 7 offered by small vendors who serve the larger constructor, n
j 8 What's at issue.is whether the applicants have' l d
d 9 an obligation simply on the basis of their being an g 10 appearance of such developments, having an obligation to 11 look into whether or not there is any substance, again a y
N 12 reasonable looking into, and say something to me, the public, 5
Q jc: 13 which would certify that they have taken these considerations z
5 14 into account and find thus and so.
E IS On the basis of this contention, had the applicant g 16 simply stated we have -- we have considered the widespread us f
x I7 opinion that the nuclear industry is in trouble and may be
{ 18 going downhill for the next twenty years and da, da, da, and E I9 g we think everything is hunky dorey. That would have mooted e
20 my objection. My objection is that the applicants have 21 shown no interest in examining the possible relevance of 22 the appearance.of these.
Q 23 I do not wish to argue again as I say the health i
24 of the nuclear industry.
25 JUDGE KELLEY: That clarifies your contention l
1 i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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1 7r2 1 for me. I appreciate that.
pd 2 (Board conferring) 3 JUDGE KELLEY: Mr. Cowgell, I think that lays i
O 4 it before us ineofar ee your contention is concerned, and g 5 we will be taking it under advisement with the other
- @ 6 contentions and ruling in due course. Thank you very R
$ 7 much for coming'over. I know it was an inconvenience for s
j 8 you, d
9 MR. COWGELL: Well, thank you. I apologize 6
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10 that I wasn't more readily available. I would have liked 4 II to have heard the whole thing.
a p 12 JUDGE KELLEY: Not at all. Thanks.
3 13' Q- Okay. Shall we then -- shall we go back to l 14 Mr. Read in Number 187 -
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15 MR. READ: Yes. Hearing no objection, I'll j
. 16 continue. Number 18 I'm willing to withdraw on the merits.
w I7 JUDGE KELLEY: Good.
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{ 18 MR. READ: Number 19 has been merged into the P
19 health effects, the joint health effects contention.
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l 20 Number 20 is a need-for-power contention which 21 would act as a challenge to the regulations. Therefore, 22 it is withdrawn pending a petition for suspension of the Q
23 ' rule.
24 Number 21 and Number 22 both are management 25 ! contentions, have been merged with the joint management l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. i
316 7r3 1 contention.
O 2 sumber 23, 'again a challenge to the regulations.
3 Number 24 is. withdrawn.
O 4 sR. BAx. tea: 1s 23 withdrawn 2 C S, MR. READ: -
Yes. It's a challenge to the 0 i
@ 6 regulations. It's withdrawn.
G b 7 Number 25 lacks su.*ficient basis according to
$ 8 the applicants and the staff. I don't have the staff 0
9 noted down on that. I think -- I have -- Unfortunately C
10 I haven't been able to study this matter in greater depth.
5 II Time concerns. I would merely like to point out that the E:
g 12 direction of one of the maj or runways at Raleigh-Durham O!'l '14 Airport does head in the general direction of tihe plant and certainly a -- it is quite conceivable and beyond the 15
, realm of mere speculation that an aceident could occur
! El 16 with an airplane from the airport striking portions of' the A
I7 plant. Beyond that I really can't provide any more basis h
a 18 for that contention.
- 19 g JUDGE KELLEY: Could we have a -- let me make n
20 this clear.
21 MR. BARTH: I have --
l 22 JUDGE KELLEY: Mr. Barth first, if you wish. 25.
23 , MR. BARTH: I didn't hear what happened to 24, 24 Your Ib nor.
25 l MR. READ: It was withdrawn.
! ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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l lf 7r4 1! MR. BARTH: Thank you. I have no comments on
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U 2.h25. Stand on the original comment.
3 JUDGE KELLEY: Excuse me. I'm getting back O 4 into it.
g 5 (Pause) 3 6 j JUDGE KELLEY: You say in 25 and four others R
$ 7 they lack specificity and that they challenge the rules.
s j 8 25. Could you specify how that lacks specificity -- if d
9 you will forgive me?
$ 10 MR. BAXTER: You are addressing Mr. Barth or me?
II JUDGE KELLEY: Yeah, I'm sorry. Mr. Barth, u
g' 12 MR. BARTH: Sir, we felt that the mere fact of Ei 13 an airport within a five-mile range did not provide any
( }) f l$ 14 kind of reason or rationale or basis or specificity for 15 stating that an analysis need be made. There are a number j 16 of airports in the country and the State of North Carolina e
17 I with small airports and la.rge airports. These things are 5 18 very often within this close or closer to plants.
P g I9 JUDGE KELLEY: What is it that triggers a site n
20 specific analysis such as I believe was done at Three Mile 21l Island? Perhaps some other reactors.
/q MR. BARTH: Several things do, Your Honor. Part V 22 l i
23 of this from the staff's point of view is the provisions in
,fm, the standard review plan for aircraf t analysis which has V 24 ql 25 its own criteria, but apart from that a showing by an h
Il a ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
j 318 7r5 I intervenor such as in -- in Three Mile Isit nd that the air O 2i potterns took them over the reactor wou1d certain1y trigger 3 enough specificity to require that the matter be further O 4 -invest 18ated.
l g 5 This also happened in the Big Rock Point where the s
l @ 6- Air Force used the containment dome as their marking for l R
$ 7 a change of course. They came right smack toward the E
g 8 reactor and then went another direction.
0 9
l 9 This kind of -- this kind of reason and concern 10 over the concern that there are airports in the country and h
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- 5 is y 12 kind of showing -- I believe as the commission put it -- a l
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Q5 reasonable man ought to inquire further.
! I4 JUDGE KELLEY: Where did the commission say that?
.j 15 MR. BARTH: That is one of those things I don't
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A 17 h (Pause)
E 18 JUDGE KELLEY: You mean a reasonable man footnote i
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E 19 that went to the Supreme Court?
20 MR. BARTH: I'm not certain, Your Honor.
21 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. That's one I happen to
- g 22 know about. Now, there isn' t any rule that says --
! U 23 , MR. BARTH: In the point of view of the staff, i
24 unless something else is raised by the intervenors to show 25 l some uniqueness to have an analysis made.
i i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
i 310 7r6 I JUDGE KELLEY: Staff? I'm sorry. Excuse me.
O 2 nr. 3sxter, 3 MR. BAXTER: Well, NRC Regulatory Gu'ide 1.70 at O 4 Secet- 2.5.1.6-eets forth the conditions under which y 5 applicants have to provide aircraft hazard analysis, and e
3 6, that says if you have a federal airway or airplane approach R
it 7 within two miles of a site, you have to provide analysis ,
n j 8 and for all airports within five miles of the site -- and 0
- ! 9 we have no such cases here, and that is reported in the 10 h Harris FSAR.
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.g 12 between five and ten miles and between -- and beyond ten c
Oi' , miles there is a formula which relates both the traffic I4 volume and the distance from the site of the particular C 15 ci airport.
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{ 18 from the plant do not have sufficient traffic volume E
g l9 operations to satisfy the requirement that such analysis c:
20 be done.
21 Now, this isn't a regulation. I understand that, 22 but what we objected to in terms of basis grounds is that 23 , there will be no allegation as to why that generic staff 24 judgment is not valid in this case.
25 l JUDGE KELLEY: Are there FAA regulations behind l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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- 7r7 1 it? Do you have any knowledge?
'O 2 <gause) 3 MR. BAXTER: I do not.
- ] 4 MR. BARTH
- We have an agreement with the Air e 5 Force as 'to flight patterns for Air Force planes that they 8
@ 6 will not be within ten triles of the reactor.
R i $ 7 JUDGE KELLEY: That is helpful. Okay. I guess s
Q 8 we can submit on that basis , and we will consider it.
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9 10 MR. READ: Number 26 is also a challenge to the regulation and is withdrawn pending a petition for
{lI g' 12 waiver of the rule, o
13 Rule Number 27 I will withdraw. I think other Qh-l l 14 intervenors were presenting contentions on the same issue, 2 15 and I really don't have the expertise or access to experts i[ I0 to pursue that one.
! d 17 I Number 28 I would like to submit that one for the l E
{ 18 board's consideration based on the -- based on the work of E
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l9 Sir Alan Cottrell who has written that the best standard 20 practice' presently available is about only about a-fifty 21 percent chance of detecting a crack under one inch thick --
22 I mean one inch long -- excuse me -- in thick steel. I 23 , believe he was looking at Westinghouse reactor vessels in 24 his analysis, which certainly is -- has access to this
,O 25 Harris plant. .
d ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
321 7r8 1 1 JUDGE KELLEY: Mr. Baxter, any comment on 287 l
O 2' MR. 3AxrER, ye11, the conteneton as it was 3 written says nothing about Sir Alan Cottrell or anyone else O 4 in terme of a basis in terms of the bald assertion that the 5 testing method wouldn't be adequate. He is cited by g
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@ 6 Mr. Eddlemen and we responded to them including citations l
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$ 7 to considerable change in his position over the years; but l 8 as this contention is written for us, we have no -- no way i 0 d 9 in which change has specifically addressed the testing that x
i 10 we have described in the FSAR and it will be carried out in i E II testing programs associated'with Shearon Harris reactor
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Qf m 13 JUDGE KELLEY: Mr. Barth?
I4 l 5 MR. BARTH: We have nothing further to add, Your i $
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y 16 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. 29 to 33? Weren't they i vs 17 h in consolidated --
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l MR. READ: Yes. They have been merged with the i #
! I9 -- consolidated. Numbers 34 and 35 were also in the joint 8
n 20 -- the joint contentions and number -- that was in the joint i
21 monitoring contentions, l'
JU E KELLEY: Right.
_O 23 MR. READ: And Number 36. I think it's -- if I i 24 ' I want to raise that issue, I think I will raise that under 25 the joint nanagement contentions , so I would consider that l
4 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. l I I
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2' JUDGE KELLE.Y: All right.
3 MR READ: I am not sure if that's in the O 4 etatemene thee we handed out.
y 5 JUDGE KELLEY: Excuse me. Let me make sure I'm e
j 6 straight on this. 3'6 -- did I understand you to say that e7
- 7 you would consider 36 merged with' management?
8 MR. READ: Yes, Your Honor. That's correct.
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JUDGE KELLEY: 'Let me look at this a minute.
H 10 ij (Pause)
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. MR. BARTH: That's listed in the summary that c5 12
'd they passed out.
c OiI5 JUDGE KEttEY: With managemene2 14 MR. READ: I don't think that was' originally.
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9 15 g MR. BAXTER: Yes, it is. Both 36 and'37.
6 MR. READ: Well, that is what I was about to say 6 17 a about 37 as well.
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18 JUDGE KELLEY: Well, upon stipulation, okay.
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n 20 MR. READ: Okay. Number 38 deals with fuel 21 cycle effe' cts and-it does say applicant's analysis, but 22 Q I am going to change'that to staff's analysis if that's 23 agreeable with the board and hold that one for consideration
-24 at such time as the environmental statement is issued.
25 JUDGE KELLEY: Maybe I can turn to the staff.
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7r10 1 The 53 decision. Is this also, when I asked for information, im Q 2 a case where we are waiting for the commission to decide what 3 to do?
b,) 4, MR. BARTH: Our recommendation, which appears on a 5 Page 94 or 95, was that also your recommendation, Mr. Baxter, 9
3 6l on S3?
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$ 7 MR. BAXTER: Yes, n
j 8 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. You indicated a willingness a
9 to defer until the appearance of the impact statement, and 9
$ 10 I think both of the other parties, the applicant and staff, E
5 11 are saying we are waiting to hear from the commission in the is y 12 same way, and we will see what to do, so under either approach
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it would be a matter of deferring it at least for the time 5 14 being.
j 15 MR. READ: Since the next two contentions, g 16 Number 39 and 40, deal with psychological --
e 17 JUDGE KELLEY: They are stress.
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- 18 MR. READ
- The same approach would apply.
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n 20 kind of commission guidance on stress in the fairly near 21 future, so the board will know where to go with contentions 22 il of this nature, b'l I 23 ' MR. READ: I'm-hum . ! umber 41 reference to the b
24 applicant's summary of the emergency plan and likewise since 25 ii the emergency plan is not yet available I have requested !
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7rl'1 I' .that one be deferred.
- . I O 2 ,uoGE xEttEy, yhen this ,ay, the emergency \g1an, 3
does that mean the on-site plan?
Q 4 MR. READ: I believe -- to tell the truth, I g 5 can't really remember, Your Honor. I have just written 0
3 6 " defer" on this, and'I haven't looked at it closely. I 5 7 l
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M j 8 JUDGE KELLEY: I would certainly defer that.
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MR. READ: Yeah. Okay. Number 42 I'm'willing 10
! h to withdraw on the merits. Number 43 likewise.
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16 JUDGE KELLEY: Correct. Staff? Applicant?
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5 18 MR. BARTH: It's correct'from our point of view, E
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20 JUDGE KELLEY: All/right. Go ahead.
I 21 MR. READ: Number 45. I believe I will withdraw 22 that one since Kudzu has intimated that it is willing to go ,
23 : forward with that.
24 Number 46 is again emergency plans, off-site, l
25 j and I'm willing to defer that as well.
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! ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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!7r12 1 Numbers 47 thr ugh 52 are all cost benefit and --
.O 2 and financia1 concentions, and 1.m w1111ng to withdra them.
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JUDGE KELLEY: All right.
0 4l MR. READ: Number 53 is a health effecte conteneton.
5 y JUDGE KELLEY: That is on 70, correct?
6 3 6 MR. READ: I will give the old numbers as well.
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. J d 9 considered a health effects contention or an attack.on the 10 h mixing analysis. I'm willing to consider that as a health
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Qf 13 rei s old Number 8. Excuse me.
@ 14 JUDGE KELLEY: All right.
7:
y 15 MR. READ: Old' Number 9. New Number 55. I'm g 16 willing to withdraw on the merits.
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fx 17 Old Number 10, New 56. I'm willing to withdraw
' 18 h on the merits.
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Old Number 11, New 57. It 's been merged with 20
- the health effects contencion.
21 Old Number 12, new 58.' Likewise merged with the 22 health effects contention. -
23 l Old Number 13, New 59, has been merged with the 24 health effects contention.
1 0 25 l Old Number 14, new' Number 60, has been merged i l i
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p 5 and I believe there is a generic rule-making pending on this h' , ,
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j 8 withdraw this one pending"that. , ,, ,
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$ 14 thing is true for old Number 20, new Number 66, t /'
.g 15 JUDGE KELLEY: Nos,' when you say merged, the
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23 ' JUDGE KELLEY: Thank you.
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MR. READ: Same is true for 67, old Number 21;- O' o fm 24 ! ~:
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25 , and likewise 22 - well 22-68 I will withdraw on.'the - _.
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2' (Board conferring) 3 31 MR. READ: Nitmber 25, new Number 69, has been
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5, JUDGE KELLEY: Excuse me.
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' 'j ~. 6l MR. READ: Yes.
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$'7 JUDGE KELLEY: I feel troubled about something.
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contentions here as being -- as underlying, if you will,
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%f 23 fifteen contentions as I understand it. They may have I -
24 D ? some historical significance if you are trying to find out S
O 25 the meaning of something, but the operational language is
.l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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1 frl5 1 in the joint contention that was -- that was in fact O 2 edogted and some of the meterte1 1n these -- if you witt --
3 ancestral contentions is not in --
O 4 MR. REAo: 1 em fu117 eware of that. Your Honor.
e 5 JUDGE KELLEY: All right. But I wanted to be P.
$ 6I sure we all were.
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$ 7 MR. READ: The contentions are sufficiently --
3 j 8 the joint contentions are sufficiently broad that -- that d
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!; 10 about, and I am perfectly willing to accept it.
E 11 JUDGE KELLEY: Management is a broad contention.
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5 13 with your understanding?
l$ 14 (Board conferring) 15 MR. BAXTER: It's_the applicant's understanding, j 16 Mr. Chairman. These are substitutes.
vs 17 MR. BARTH: Staff understands it too.
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19 various of us and the applicants, so if he says he is going g
n 20 to stand on the exact words right now, then I don't know 21 what that does to that. I think it changes it, but I'm 22 not sure, and I'd like to at least talk to him before I say 23 that I assent to what he just said because that is not my l
24 understanding.
25 MR. BAXTER: There is no change in anything that ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
i 329 i
7r16 I I told you before.
O 2 MR. EDDtEMAN, 1 hat is the assumption that 1 was 3 operating throughout. I find a lot of times that the O 4 assumption'that was straightforward 1y obvious to you 5 doesn't seem to get stated in a way that means the same
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c Oi' 1 have notes on what 1 eaid was okay, and I might reference
! 14 that if they say it's not.
15 JUDGE KELLEY: I think we are clear on this.
- j 16 The reason I raised it really was when you said you referred
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(( 17 to an old contention, Mr.' Read, and you said this is merged E
$ 18 in the new one. '
P E 19 MR. READ: Um-hum.
n 20 JUDGE KELLEY: And you look at it and say I don't 21 know if it is or it isn't -- because all I understand is that
, 22 the old one is an ancestor, and this is a substitution that 23 i took place.
24 ! MR. READ: Um-hum.
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Go ahead.
25 i JUDGE KELLEY: Go ahead.
J l j l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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7rl7 I MR. READ: I think' for practical purposes that would
& 2 V mean that the contention was withdrawn on the face of it.
3
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JUDGE KELLEY: It's no longer operational in a O 4 legal sense. It's the joint contention. That is the 5 - operational contention.-
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6
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g 12 as a point of argument. Yes.
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14 refresh my memory as to where I was?
at 15 MR. EDDLEMAN: 69-23.
y 16 MR. READ: That has also been merged with the as h I7 monitoring contentions as have Numbers 24, 25, now 70, 71 18 This is where I'm having JUDGE CARPENTER:
P 19 j trouble. You say it's been merged with instead of being 20 replaced by. That's what I'm asking. I'm getting the 21 feeling that all of these which are very particularized have be me in rporated, long, long, multipart contentions O
23 by use of the word " merge".
24 I am not very clear about what you mean by the 25 l word " merge".
i l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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7r18 1$ MR. READ: Subsumed.
() 2 JUDGE KELLEY: Superseded?
3 pl MR. READ: Yes.
4
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g 5 ! supersede better than subsumed, e
@ 6 MR. READ: That is not --
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9 Number 72 has to do with radiation health effects ,
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O y 10 which I understand it will be considered in the staff's Il environmental assessment of operation. Therefore, I u
N 12 would like to defer that one till that environmental 3
13
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assessment.
@ 14 MR. BARTH: Your Honor, our objection to this s
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j 16 the appeal board, and it does not seem appropriate for this
- i 6 17l matter here.
5 y 18 JUDGE KELLEY: I understand. Go ahead. We 0
g 19 , will decide that, e
20 MR. READ: If I could, Your Honor, I'd like to 21 withdraw 73a at this time and return to 73b at the end 22 since there might be some spirited discussion on that.
[)
23 ' JUDGE KELLEY: 73 must be in the supplement.
24 Is that right?
25 MR. READ: No. It's 73, small a. There is a 0
i
! ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
i 332 7r19. I small-a and then a small b there.
() 2 JUDGE KELLEY: Oh.
3 MR. READ: Okay. And if I could, I would like
() 4 to withdraw 75 and at this time return to 73b when I g 5 finish because that way we can steam through the rest of 9
3 6 the contentions and then just return to 73b.
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$ 7 JUDGE KELLEY: Go ahead, s
j 8 MR. READ: 74 has been merged, superseded as d
9 you will, with the steam generator contention.
10 Number 75 is awaiting the staff environmental
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11 statement, so I ask that that one be deferred.
5 B
y 12 Number 76 I'm willing to withdraw on the merits i f 5
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5 I4 Number 77 is redundant. I'm willing to withdraw 5
15 that one on the merits , and the last two contentions are j 16 l
-- 78, 79, old 32, 33, basically go to cost benefit and w
I7 l h_ i to the extent that those are discussed in the final b
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p 18 environmental statement. I'm willing to defer those 19 g
n ques tions , and Number 80 I already spoke somewhat to that, 20 and that is basically for the consideration of the board 21 in considering the other contentions and --
22 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay.
(])
23 i MR. READ: And --
24 JUDGE KELLEY. It's basically a legal argument, qgg 25 l is it not?
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
y 333
- 7r20 1 MR. READ
- Yes,.Your Honor, it is. I don't O 2I really feel like discussing that at tne moment.
3 Number 73B. The staff and the applicants or O 4 1 sueee esseutieliv the egeticents in their reseonse.
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g 5 MR. BAXTER: Excuse me, Mr. Read. I have not
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@ 6 caught up with the'end of your list. If you could just G
$ 7 give me just thirty seconds .
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,j 8 MR. BARTH: And I did not catch what would d
ci 9 happen to 80, Your Honor.
$ 10 JUDGE KELLEY: 80 was withdrawn and B we are E
-j 11 going to talk about.
e j 12 MR. READ: Mr. Barth asked about Number 80. That 5
13 is essentially a legal argument for.the consideration of l 14 the board in considering- the other contentions , and I am 15 not advancing it. I will withdraw that as a contention as g' 16 pertains to the Harris plant per se.
> A 6 17 l MR. BARTH: Thank you.
J 5
{ 18 MR. BAXTER: I just had one conment on Number 78 E
[n 19 which Mr. Read asked be deferred. We took the position 20 that this is a challenge to the new need-for-power rule and 21 we would ask that a board ruling be issued on it.
22 JUDGE KELLEY: We will consider it in that light.
23 ; MR READ: All right.
t j 24 JUDGE KELLEY: And you wanted to go back to --
MR. READ: 73b. I believe that -- I believe 25l' Y
! ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
1 1 334 7r21 1 this is also covered -- I believe -- as far as I know, this L(]) 2 has covered everything that was in my May 24th amendments 3 as well as to the only one that was outstanding for ;
4 discussion is 73b.
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g 5 JUDGE KELLEY: Without looking again at May 24th, e,.
@ 6 did that elaborate on contentions already here in large R
$ 7 'part?
Z j 8 MR. READ: Yes. This was one addition.
d d 9 JUDGE KELLEY: And that would bring us down to E,
U 10 this one?
11
$ MR. READ: Um-hum. 73b if I might. I am not
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y 12 really sure what -- how I should address this. It says --
5 r~g 13 if I might read it into the record that the section on V
z 5 14 radiological impact of routine operation, Section 5.2 of U
15 the ER is inadequate because it fails to consider the y 16 radiation and other health effects likely to result from v.
17 , the routine military use of plutonium and/or other h
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{ 18 materials extracted from the fuel used at the plant.
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er 19 To the extent that this will be considered in 20 the staff's environmental statement, I don't know whether 21 the board would like to defer ruling on this until later 22 i or what. I do feel that this is an issue that should be 23 considered in considering environmental effects of the i
24 ll plant.
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25 MR. BAXTER: We are not in favor of a deferral, 0
i
! ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
i 335 F7r22 1l Mr. Chairman. Our position was that the federal action that
() 2 is relevant here under NEPA is the ' issuance of an operating 3 license for Shearon Harris , and that doesn't include a
(]) 4 proposal or even a contemplation of the use of waste from
- g. 5 the facility for military purposes and in fact current
$ 6 United States policy is against that, and under NEPA this R
$ 7 is a speculative and remote impact that need.not be analyzed s
j 8 and it should be ruled on by the board, d
C 9 MR. BARTH: This is a fair summary of the law x.
e y 10 as staff sees it and the contention should be denied.
E 11 MR. READ: May I respond?
u j 12' JUDGE KELLEY: Are you agreeing with what E
(s]) aj 13 l Mr. Baxter said?
! 14 FR, BARTH: Yes, Your Honor.
5 15 JUDGE KELLEY: Any other comment, Mr. Read?
16 MR. READ: I would like to respond if I might.
d A
I7 JUDGE KELLEY: Yes. Go ahead, g 18 MR. READ: There have been several proposals 19 over the past several years to use spent fuel from g
n 20 commercial power plants for weapon production and -- as 21 I understand it, based on the report that was issued by i
22 the environmental policy center the federal government is
)
23 , currently considering this alternative. The applicants 24l pointed out in their response to this contention that O
25 current federal policy as expressed in -- I believe it is i
l l l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. I i
l 4 336 7r23 1 the Hatfield amendment forbids the use of commercial spent O 2
(_/ fuel for weapons production.
3 However, current federal policy as we all know O 4 is often sub;ect to change. ana the progese1s -- the matter 5 is under -- has been under study by the government, and I'm g
n j 6 sure some sort of plan has been developed to use this R
$ 7 material for weapons. I think that in view of the fact 8 that applicants -- they won't be ruling on applicant's r)
C 9 operating license for at least three years and they propose 10 g to operate the plant for a period of anywhere from twenty-
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12 producing somewhere on the order as I understand it of about Oi' n 400 kilograms of plutonium a year for which plutonium there E I4 are essentially three alternatives.
15
, One is to leave it in spent fuel and store it ad j 16 infinitum in a repository, and second is to reprocess it A
I7 and use it for commercial power, and the third is to extract h
.=
18 it from spent fuel and use it for weapons production.
5 g Under the circumstances I think it certainly is n 19l 20 not inconceivable that -- that the government would in fact 21 use the fuel produced at the Harris plant which could not be O Produced without the issuance of the operating license in 23 ! weapons production.
24 As I understand it, the government is currently 25 looking into the possibility of -- of reopening the Purex i
! ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
i 337 r7r24 I plant at Hanford which could accept not only military spent O 2 fue1 but a1se other fue1 which is compatib1e with the purex 3 process which would include fuel produced at the Shearon O 4 Harris p1ent. 1 betieve the compatib111ty requirements are 5 that basically it's used in zirconium, tubing, in 202 g
9
@ 6 pellets -- and I forget what the third criterion is, but G
E 7 all three criteria apply to Shearon Harris, so based on 5
j 8 those considerations that any environmental view of the d
$ 9 effects of the plant, the operation of the plant, would have 10 to consider military use of the fuel.
II
$ JUDGE BRIGHT: Mr. Read, now from what you have s
l 12 said, I gather that your only problem is with military'use O!' of the ptutonium. 1s thee correct?
$ 14 MR. READ: As I understand it, Your Honor, the 15 government has undertaken a draft and environmental impact j 16 statement of the breeder program which is the other us I7 possibility for future use of the fuel beyond placing it in 18 a repository for permanent disposal.
I9 JUDGE BRIGHT: Well, do you think that the 8
n 20 breeder reactor is a military use of the plutonium from 21 Shearon Harris?
22 MR. READ: No. It isn't.
23 , JUDGE BRIGHT: Well then, I want to go back to 24 the original question and be very clear on this.
25 i MR. READ: Um-hum, t ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
_- . . . = _ _
- ;33 7r25 I JUDGE BRIGHT: As I gather it, your only problem
!O 2 here in this centention is mi11tary use of the g1utentum 3 that can be extracted from the Shearon Harris plant. Is
. O 4 that e feir statement 2 s 5 MR. READ: In this contention. Yes.
8 3 6 JUDGE BRIGHT: Okay. Thank you.
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$ 7 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. That brings us to the si j 8 end of the Change ELP contentions. Right?
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- 9 MR. READ: 'Yes, Your Honor, it does.
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g 10 MR. BAXTER: Sir?
II JUDGE KELLEY: Let me just say that the board l
o 12 very much appreciates your wi'.lingness to evaluate your
'3 O =l contentions as time 80es on end thinss haggen end documents
@ 14 come in and things get said and you change some and withdraw 15 some, but it very much expedites and assists the process to j 16 be willing to reassess and pull back the ones that you don't as I7 want to push. There is plenty here to debate about even h
- 18 when all the -- even when a lot of contentions for one reason P
$ 19 or another get withdrawn. So thank you.
M 20 MR. READ: You are welcome, Your Honor. I think 21 all of my substantial concerns have been addressed, and I i
'O l think n behalf of Change that Change feels the same way.
23 JUDGE KELLEY: Thank you. That will leave us
., p 24 in terms of a major piece of work Mr. Eddleman's contentions V
25 l that will I guess start after a ten-minute break. Let's -
I i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
i 339 fr26 1 take ten minutes.
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_ q_) 2 .(A recess was taken) 3 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. We are back on the record, eS
(_/ 4- and I believe this brings us to Mr. Eddleman's presentation g 5 of his content' ions. Let me just try this out with you, 2 l
$ 6 Mr. Eddleman. We asked you for your list of twenty and l R
5 7 you gave us twenty and the next twenty. Some of the 3
y 8 twenty very probably have been pulled up into the joint d
". 9 contentions by now.
10 MR. EDDLEE%N: I have a list checked off that way, h
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. sir.
s y 12 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. So do you want to proceed 5
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13 on the list of twenty minus those'and then we will just keep; m
E I4 going as you -- as you see fit I guess. It leaves us with
{x 15 a lot of contentions , and we will have to see how much we g 16 can cover, but we will certainly get over a good bit, w
I7 MR. EDDLEMAN: I know that, Mr. Chairnan. I had h
E 18 thought -- don't want to keep the board cround just for me, P
19
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n and I have so many contentions including a goodly number 20 that I don' t feel I can withdraw. I have piles of bases 21 here if they want to cite bases , but I thought I would go 22
{) over these twenty and the next twenty if we can.get to them 23 , and any more that we can get to including any one that t
24 anybody has any particular concern with, and I would take 25 l up questions and per the conference call of June the 3rd, i
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
340 r7r27 I which the transcript is still at the LPDR.
2 JUDGE KELLEY: Let me clarify. The transcript 3 of the telephone call?
O 4 xR. EDDtEMAN: re1eghone conference ce11 of June-
'; 5I the 3rd I believe, e,.
@ 6 JUDGE KELLEY: There isn't one. Did I say there C
b 7 would be?
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{ 8 MR. EDDLEMAN: I thought there was a reporter on d
9 the line. Somebody was asking what your name was, and I
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o G 10 thought there was a reporter there.
$ 11 - JUDGE KELLEY: No. In any event, I think'it i::
y 12 was the next day we~ issued an order, and the basis of the 5
13 call which I think incorporated substance of it -- but the
@ 14 short answer is that there is no transcript of that call.
15 MR. EDDLEMAN: Okay. I didn't understand that, j 16 Thank you, e
17
{ At any rate, to try to make a written response f18 P
based on board questions and other questions and thinking 19
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e:
that goes here to most of them that we don't get to, I don't 20 want to tie things up. We have motions to get to, and I 21 have a couple of preliminary matters that I think have to 22 deal with largely the way the applicants responded to what 23 is a contention and the background of them, and I think it 24 l will take me five or ten minutes.
25 - JUDGE KELLEY: I think we indicated before -- but i
l i
n ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
a41 7r28 1 let me state again. Here we are at twenty to three and we
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(_) 2l\ propose to go this afternoon up till five plus, but we are 3 ' also quite prepared to come here tomorrow morning and spend e !
4
(_m) some more time discussing your contentions. I want --
y 5l while on the one hand, not commenting as to going over n
@ 6 every single one , I want to give you a good shot and give R
S 7 us a good shot at the contentions and so on, and we are not E
j 8 by any means bent on finishing today, and you will have time e
d 9 to voice your concerns and make your points.
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C 10 g MR. EDDLEMAN: Well, I appreciate that,
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$ I was just trying to see if it might be more a
g 12 efficient for me to make a written response later and also 3
13
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v 5 have yet another filing deadline with the Utilities m
5 I4 Commission at five o' clock tomorrow.
E -
15
{= JUDGE KELLEY: If you have done prioritizing in j 16 your own mind and you get over those that you think most m
g' 17 : need oral discussion here and you make your major points
=
18 fs and think you can make the rest of it by written submission,
$ 19 then maybe we can finish today. We are not against that, n
20 MR. EDDLEMAN: I would like to.
21 JUDGE KELLEY: But we are willing to go either e 22 l way is all I'm saying.
(- .
23 : Okay. Why don't you go ahead.
24 MR READ: If I might interrupt for just a 25 second, Your Honor. With regard to the motion that I O
a N
S ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
j 342
- 7r29 1 filed earlier at the beginning of this proceeding --
(]) 2 JUDGE KELLEY: :Yes.
3 MR. READ: -- I have talked to Mr. Baxter, and
' he indicates that he isn' t really ready to argue that motion 4
(])
ia 5 at_this time, and that would be acceptable with me if some h 6 alternative mechanism, either by a. conference call or E
j $ 7 whatever, could be arranged.
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[ 8 JUDGE KELLEY: I had a couple of questions I d
9 wanted to ask.
9 I think it's reasonable for Mr. Baxter 5
g 10 to have further time since he just got it down here to file E
11 a
a written response, and I suppose we could get on the phone p 12 and if that seems to be indicated, I don't think it's 5*
a 13 crucial that we get to it here.
(~J) y -
m 14 5 MR. READ: Okay.
_b 15 MR. EDDLEMAN: Mr. Chairman, if you are going j 16 to do that, I would like to at this time adopt that motion w
17 4
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that Change filed as mine. I don't know if I am allowed to
{ 18 do that in NRC practice, but I concur with its basis, and I A
19
{n would like to see it adopted.
20 JUDGE KELLEY: Any comment from Mr. Baxter or
- 21 staff?
i 22 MR. BAXTER: No.
23 , MR. BARTH: No, Your Honor, 24 JUDGE KELLEY: All right. We will consider you 25 i a cosponsor of the motion.
1 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
~
4 343 7r30 1 MR. EDDLEMAN : Yes, sir.
2 JUDGE KELLEY: So shall we proceed with Mr. Eddleman 3 then at this point?
O 4 Go eheed.
5 y .MR. EDDLEMAN: Okay. If I may-be allowed to 9
j 6
~
say just one litt1e facetious- thing -starting off. I was R
7-referred to as a cleanup hitter early on, humorously speaking j 8~
as a cleanup hitter for the Natural League here. .We d
' c' 9 realize though the Applicant's League.is ahead seventy-five o ,
10 to nothing in this game at this stage, but the Natural
,{II League thinks that since the game goes on for eleven million j 12 years in that Natural League that we have not yet begun to c
Oi' taxe our swinse. and here 1 so.
.b I4 JUDGE KELLEY: Go ahead.
15 MR. EDDLEMAN: I want to start off by addressing 16 somewhat -- have the applicants really responded to what is hacontention? This might be worth exploring. When I got I
E 18
- into this, I didn't know a blasted thing about framing e
I9 h
e contentions. I had endeavored for some years to learn about 20 that because I thought that I was going to be in this 21 situation at some point.
22 What.I did was I basically tried to get intervenors 23 , to feed me old contentions that worked and why did they work, l
24 and that wasn't very successful. In fact, I would say it 25 was uniformly unsuccessful. I must have put out twenty or ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
j 344 7r21 1 thirty contacts and gotten one or two sets of contentions over C. 2 a cong1e of years, and nobody cou1d rea11, te11 me what n 3 contention was.
O 4 1 viewed this es e 1eerning process. 1 started g 5 off looking at the ones that I did find which were mostly E.1 3 6 from Virgil Summer and Catawba and some cases in R
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$ 7 Pennsylvania, and I tried to understand what made the M
y 8 contentions contentions, and why some were admissible and d
! $ 9 some were not, and I couldn't find a logical basis that made 10 sense to me, you know, based on my thorough lack of legal h
1 5
Il 4 training, but it looked to me that a lot were simple and is l 12 short and seemed to say this'is wrong with the plant and it i O!'
j
! m I4 would have bad consequences -- they weren't making it, and E a lot of the objections were that there wasn't -- they i 5 15
, didn't really say basis sometimes, but you haven't 16 i,j
- 5 explaine'd how this accident could happen or why it would I7 happen and so on, but I think that has something to do with f
M 18 the length of some of my responses.
I9 Also in my references and so on I noted 10 CFR 50.32 8
n 20 which is about incorporation by reference in the FSAR and it 21 says you can do it provided such references are clear and 22 specific; and if that is the definition of clear and specific l 23 l that the applicants are abiding by, I think it's highly
- 1 24 variable because if you look in there, there are some I
25 l things where they just say we have experience with such and 4 .
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
[ 345 7r32 1 such. They don't cite the studies or name them and some of O 2 them name e who1e document or sey thet is teken care of in 3 WXXX, four digits, and so on; and so when I was trying to 0 -4 underecend whet specificity wee, a 1ot of it. 1 eatd we11 e 5 if the FSAR is no more specific than that, that is about 0
, j 6 how specific to be; and that was part of my basis.
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$ 7 I also in the old 10 CFR 2 I recall some'little M
] 8 subsection that said that even those framed by lawyers d l C 9 should be read or interpreted fairly broadly by the boards, !
G 10 and I looked through Mr. Runkle's copy and couldn't find it.
is
~a h II I don't know if that's been changed; but at any rate, I am l l 12 not relying totally on that.
O!I m 14 CP & L make this very interesting argument that since I 5 am an energy consultant and a teacher and helped technically 15 with the case in '79 -- basically I read the technical j 16
'A documents and spewed stuff back out to the lawyers when they 17 h need it,that gives me some unusual or better qualification 18 than the average person in drafting contentions, and to me i'
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n 19 it's a good example of their level of logic here. It 20 completely contradicts the kind of arguments that they are 21 making about me not showing nexus to say -- well, in numbering 22 their responses to me, they say he hasn't shown why this 23 failure here means something to it; and they advance no 24 basis whatever that I can see that being an energy consultant 25 ) or a teacher or anything gives me an ability in highly ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
! 346 Fr33 1 technical legal pleading and contentions.
() 2 For example, Mr. Payne, who I think is a good 3 attorney -- and I am not trying to impeach-him, but I asked
() 4 him what is a good contention, and he said he didn't know.
g 5 Even Judge Kelley said he only knows them when he sees them; 9
@ 6 but.maybe_that is too broad -- and I really understand there R
$ 7 are things that are like that; but what I'm saying is that M
j 8 for CP & L to claim, especially whenever I get up to testify d
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o g 10 intelligent guy that went to a nice institution years ago, E
11 but we are darned if he has any particular expertise at all; a
p 12 and then, of course, if they want to insulate their house,
({}c 13 they might ask me a question; but that is beside the point, m
5 14 But they produce a completely contradictory theory, 15 and what I'm trying to say is that I tried to frame contentions j
. 16 based on the best I knew -- and it wasn't much but since then w
d 17 I have gotten ahold of a lot of the NRC cases on contentions ,
E
{ 18 and the ALABs showed contentions that to me are at least as P
{n 19 vague, and I know everybody else has an opinion on this --
20 and almost anything that was put into this proceeding and 21 that a lot of them, the board would give a possibility of-I 22 revising later on or revising within a certain time limit
[}
23 and so on, and while I don't propose to revise merely as 24 many as I put in here, I think that this is relevant to
{)
25 what is a contention and what should be admissible, and .
l i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
f 347 L
7r34 1 j
that is the statement that I basically stand on on that.
O 2: 1 have down et the end of my stetememt et the very 3 end I'd like to say something about copying of the service O 4 tiet decause 1 have sreet difficutty with that, end I have g 5 asked CP & L to help me out, and they said that certain 0
@ 6 things are too expensive to do and some things are too --
N l
$ 7 ' might get the documents out of their control. I offered R
j 8 to. pay them for copies, and they haven't quite established 0
9 9 the cost of them or whether they can do it, particularly
$ 10 the amendments to the FSAR and ER. I need a copy of that. l 3
11 I've gotten to the point last night when the h
s y 12 Xerox machine broke down, the librarian jumped right on it 5 '
t Oi'=
aad tried to fix it for tea minutes -- or rive =tautes aaa 5 14 they couldn't, and I got down on my stomach and with one 15 of their nail files, supporting myself on my stomach, with l '
! -d 16 my head, shoulders, and arms completely off the ground and us 17 reaching into the machine as far as I could go and pulling h
f 18 ' the thing out to get it fixed and running, I said the hell e 19 g with this; it's worth money to me to get the copies I'd n
20 like and CP & L will help me, and if they won't, I'd like to 21 say something about the service list. At the end I will deal q
V 22 with that. -
23 JUDGE KELLEY: Let me just interrupt and ask 24 Mr. Baxter. Copies of documents forthcoming -- well, let's 25 f take amendments to the FSAR and ER.Do you have any e
i
! ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
> 348 i .
'll l
'7r35 1 objection to supplying copies to the intervenor?
gs ts,) 2 (Pause) i 3 MR. BAXTERi I thought that, leaving aside
(]) 4 other kinds of licensing correspondence, I thought that e 5 the local public document rooms were set up for the FSAR 0
3 6 We had not provided copies of the original R
9 and the ERs.
$ 7 documents to intervenors.
E g 8 (Pause) 0 c; 9 MR. PAYNE: We would like to know when and what E
g 10 material is coming to -- just to find.out -- to get some Z_-
11 a
idea of what they are doing and when they are putting them N I2 in.
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{) m 13 MR. EDDLEMAN: I have stood for a couple hours g 14 at a time and --
E 0
15 JUDGE KELLEY: Let's go one at a time. I just N
g 16 got a question to the applicants about supplying these e
g 17 documents. I would actually like to look at this myself.
E M 18 Can we take a thirty-second pause?
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M 19 (Pause) 20 JUDGE KELLEY: Back on the record.
21 I'd like to refer you to Pages 39 and 40 of the I
s 22 decision dated March 5, 1982, in the Catawba proceeding, x) 23 copies of which I believe were sent to the LPDRs, and I 4
24 i believe there was a motion made and granted in that
! () h 25 j proceeding which did this.
i
! ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
i 349 7r36 1l Well, a motion was made as follows. .That the
(} 2 intervenors be served with copies of all relevant documents 3
generated by the applicant and the staff in connection with
(]) 4- this operating license proceeding. This would include g 5 most significantly amendments to'the FSAR, other formal n
@ 6. technical exchanges between the applicant and staff, 9
l
$ 7 emergency plans generated by state and local authorities, M
[ 8 draft environmental impact statements, staff SER as d
d 9 supplemented; and that order was entered and objected to g 10 and objection overruled and it stands in that case; and I'd 3
j 11 like you to look at that order and see whether it causes u
j 12 you -- and the staff too. I'd like the staff to look at 5
{])
13 the same order and see whether you have any objections to l
p l 14 it and perhaps you could include it in your posthearing 2 15 filing in the near future.
w
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.m.
d 17 I guess Mr. Eddleman brought this matter up with Mrs. Flynn 5
18 today, this is the first time I have been made aware of the P
$ 19 problem; and I think, as I mentioned yesterday, we are er 20 always open for discussing problems with petitioners.
21 The proceedings will move faster if we do that in advance 22
) and have time to consult with ourselves and ourV$lients 23 l and get back to Mr. EJdleman.
! 24 (g
f-
/
l JUDGE KELLEY: The more you consult and consult 25 l carly, the better off we will all be, but I would ask you to i
i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
.350 7r37 1 look at that order.
I
() 2 MR. BAXTER: Has the Catawba certified that 3 objection to the appeal board?-
i
(]) 4 JUDGE KELLEY: No. They were asked to, and they.
- 5 declined. They can seek direct certification of that order
[
e.'
.3 6 if they want.
R b 7 MR. EDDLEMAN: I would like to say that the ER i M j 8 amendments which I am not sure were in this list you read d
c; 9 were among my concerns. -
10 h JUDGE KELLEY: Yes, they are.
=
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s g 12 JUDGE KELLEY: Yeah. It includes that.
c
(]) f 13 MR. BARTH: Your Honor, I think from our point
[ 14 of view it does not go to the -- to the matter at issue.
j= 15 We will serve copies of: documents of our own source to the
, y 16 applicants upon those that you admit as intervenors.here.
. A 17
- ]fr We don't need an order for that. We will certainly commit g 18 to-do that, s
E 19 JUDGE KELLEY: Staff-generated documents the M
20 staff would serve?
21 MR. BARTH : Staff-generated document which we 22 send to-the applicants in this proceeding, Your Honor.
)
] 23 ;' JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. Well, in any event, that i
r~g - 24 sounds good; but in any event, would you look at the order V
25 f thoroughly that I am referring you to and see whether that i
f i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
1
p 351 7r38 1 includes anything that you object to or omits anything you 2 think ought to be included.
3 MR. BARTH: Yes, Your Honor. I have. That is O 4 what 1 m trying to avoid seceuse the commise1on in Caro 11ne 5
g Power and Light, Shearon Harris, CLI 80-12, 11 NRC 514,-
v
@ 6' very clearly held that the licensing boards had not been
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$ 7 delegated authority to direct the staff in administrative s
j 8 functions. I see no reason for us to get into this kind d
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of a discussion. We will commit to provide the papers to o .
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{= these people voluntarily.
II 5 JUDGE KELLEY: I would have to look again at E:
l 12 that decis ion . I don't think it has anything to do with Oi' what 1'm talkins about. hue 1 witt look at it.
I4 f I am asking that the staff and the applicant 15
.,. look at the Catawba order and advise this board of any j 16 objections that they have to it.
e
!i 17 l MR. BAXTER: In our postconference --
N
{ 18
' JUDGE KELLEY: And we will set a date for that, f
19
{n MR. BARTH: Can you give us the date of the order, 20 sir?
21 JUDGE KELLEY: March 5, 1982 22 MR. BARTH: Thank you.
23 MR. EDDLEMAN: Shall I proceed on my contentions?
24 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. I think you were through 25 various introductory points.
I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
352 l I
I 4
7r39 1 .
MR. EDDLEMAN: Well, I have one -- well, maybe
() 2 two introductory -- but maybe I should save the next 3
question.till we get to 758, but what does " withdraw" mean?
1
(]) 4 If I withdraw a contention, does that mean I am saying that 5
I'm not going to pursue this in this casc?
g 6 e
JUDGE KELLEY: Basically, g
7 MR. EDDLEMAN: It doesn't mean that I'm^saying '
CS '
] 8 that it's no good or there is nc validity to it?
O d 9 JUDGE KELLEY: Doesn'tshave to.
10 h MR. EDDLEMAN: Well, okay. Then whenever I II 5
a say I withdraw something, I don't mean that it's no good.
g 12 rei s just that I don't think.I can pursue it under the c '
13
(]) f m circumstances.
14 JUDGE KELLEY: Sure. You n$), y decide' as a g 15
= practical matter, you may decide as the case is shaping up4 f
m 16 that you have a lot of good contentions, but you.just can't
' y" 17 litigate them all so you drop a few. You just withdraw k 18 them. You don't have to say they are not good. That is F
19 the end of that, h
n 20 i FGL. EDDLEMAN: And like if the board is going '
1 21 to rule on the ones that are, quoke, unquote, chall'enges 22 to the rule or alleged to be so, I think I will just let
)
23 , the board rule on them rather than withdrawing them, i
, 24! JUDGE KELLEY: That's all right.
< I 25 MR. EDDLEMAN: Okay. Let's see. With respect k
. i I.
i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
353' 7r40 1 to the matters of financial qualification -- and I don't have
'O 2 that 11se here
. hut the agg11 cants have their 11st of whae 3 they think is my financial qualification -- and I think the O 4 etaff hes some eore of organizetion on it, end 1 wou1d 11ke j.i g 5 to let everybody know that I am a party to this appeal --
e
@ 6 I don't know what -- 'a legal action in the D.C. Circuit y7 Court of Appeals, DocketkNumber 82-1581 I believe the {
f8 a
title is New England Coalition on Nuclear Pollution et al N 9 vs. NRC, challenging t-heir adoption of this financial
$ 1 10 h -qualification.
II
$ At any rate, my attorney is William Jordan III, a
g;12
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Harmon and Wise,-1725 2et, Northwest, D.C. --
^
Oi Waehinston. D. C. 20cor>. Phone tiumber (202) 833-9070 --
! I4 and I would direct any of your questions about that case M
15 to him; but I'm letting-you know, you know, I will not .
j 16 us discuss this in any detail because I think the suit --
the I7 h NRC rule which the board says they are bound by will take 5.
18 3 care of it.
E 19 g s JUDGE KELLEY: Yeah, I think that's right. The n
20 rule is there , and we are going to follow the rule -- well, 2,1 as a practic matter until the commission tells us to stop, 22 and they would do that presumably'if they lose the case.
23 !. Otherwise we willy follow it.
24 MR. EDDLEMAN: In other words, it's what the 25 commission says and not what the court says that is relevant k
1
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l \ / i' a j 3 fr41 1,3 herc l' t U 2 , JUDGE KELLEY: Well,-I am not meaning to suggest
. r 3 that ' boar 6 go around ignoring coirt decisions . We are q
V 4l awareofthebtoo. We are their immediate delegates and -
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,MR. EDDLEMAN: Okay. Let me start in on my ,'
y 8 laundry list then. Number 3. What did we say? l '
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o ' i' b 10 the joint contention on management capability. -
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11 Now, let me just ask, has that been stipulated
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13 C) JUDGE KELLEY: I believe it was. Okav.
m I 5 14 MR. EDDLEMAN: Okay. Number L. I have a hard 15
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time keeping my papers organized, but I will do the best I 1
16 can; but, Number 4 is at Page --
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!i 17 MR. RUNKLE: 46. ,
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{ 18 MR, EDDLEMAN: Thank you. ,
E 19 g MR. RUNKLE: CCNC has adopted some of these
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20 contentions, and I will get involved in only !. hose that s
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21 ' '
we adopted if I have something to add. '
s 22 JUDGE KELLEY: That sounds okay. At least
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23 provisionally.
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24 MR. RUNKLE: Yes.
G 25 ,i MR. EDDLEMAN: It seems that this may be -
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1 considered a challenge to the rule because we are only
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2 considering sing 1e ta11eres2 newever, what 1.m geteing ae
, 3 is 'in trying to decide what kind of actions are possible q
k' w 4 at the plant, you have to take into account these factors, i
r- 5 many of which have to do with the way Brunswick was
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f 3 6 constructed, the way Harris is being constructed. The
- E E 7 ICS the applicants have told me is not a thing that they l
E j 38 have there but it is a computer system. I believe in my i 4 c 9, 628 amendments I was saying well, computers can cause an
$ 10 error even when they are not safety equipment by sending E . .
r yU a spurious signal, and so at any rate I'm going to leave g 12 one to the board. I think there may be a basis to get
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<rta or it, but I will leave it to the board.
h! If JUDGE KELLEY: Any comments?
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MR. BAXTER: No.
.'j 16 MR EDDLEMAN: Number 7.
- I
, h 17 l JUDGE BRIGHT: I guess my problem here -- could
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you make a very short statement? Not necessarily that that C
, 19 is all we will consider but a central idea of w'nat your a I2 20 commission -- your contention is?
21 MR. EDDLEMAN: Okay, I'll try that. I would 22 say that due to CP & L's construction failures as 23l evidenced by what has been observed by I & E at Harris --
24 well, CP & L and also construction problems. mean that --
25 l well, CP & L's construction and operating problems at ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
.. . - . _ _ . ~ . . __ _ . - - - - _ _ _ _. - _ _ _ . . - _ .
356 4
7r43 1 . nuclear plants mean that there is a need to address accident I
O 2 sequences in more degeh because the defense in depth concept 3 on which nuclear safety is b'ased assumes that most of the O 4I lavere wi11 be senerally fully functional.
5 What I'm saying is that CP & L is fairly unique g
h6 G
and the Harris plant being their next plant is unique in E 7 that they have had all these problems that are not unique 3
j j 8 but special. They have had all these problems and they
- e 9 9 need to do a better analysis than you would need at an g 10 ordinary plant that was operated by a utility that had a
' 11 better record. I think that is about as good as I can do, is j [ 12 (Board conferring) 13 Q MR. EDDLEMAN: And then for basis I cite their l$ 14 construction and operating at Brunswick and the I & E 15 inspections at Harris. For example, the failure to y 16 control the pipe hanger w.lds.
- us I7 JUDGE BRIGHT
- Okay. And then all the rest 4
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{ 18 of this here is a backup? That is you. You are actually E
g I9 making your case here?
n 20 MR. EDDLEMAN: It's like I said about what I 21 thought a contention had to be. I probably put in more 22 than I needed to. As I understand it, a contention only 23 needs to put the applicants on notice generally as to what p 24 l they are defending against and raise an issue that is d f 25 worth something in the hearing. They say cognizable.
I 4tosasosaseoaTisocomensv.inc.
l 357 <
!7r44 i JUDGE BRIGHT: Well, that is specific enough so l l
lO 2 they xnow what they are og ageinst, and there is a greb1em
) 3 that I have in reading your contentions because there are O 4 eo many thin 8s included in it I don't know exactiv which l c 5 ones you intend to really actively pursue and which ones i 9 6
you said well, look, this is true or has happened and 3
R 3 $ 7 therefore we should accept this contention.
g 8 MR. EDDLEMAN: Well, I tried to narrow this down, O
C 9 M and I can probably do better in writing later if necessary. l e
G 10 JUDGE BRIGHT:
I think that will do it.
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11 MR. RUNKLE: I would like to draw the board's y 12 attention -- that multiple failures resulting from a d'
Q 13 single occurrence are considered to be a single failure,
- $ 14 and that is Part 50, Appendix A, so when it refers to 1 y -
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15 multiple failures, that is --
y 16 MR. EDDLEMAN: I think I used the language e
i g 17 , common mode failures, and that is, of course, what I'm 3 ,
E 18 talking about.
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- 19 l g (Board conferring) e.
20 MR. BAXTER: Mr. Chairman, i
21 JUDGE KELLEY: Yes?
22 MR. BAXTER: While we are hearing -- we have the 23 same difficulty, of course, that Judge Bright did; and we 24 are hearing a slightly new answer to what we at:swered in 25[ writing. It's difficult for me to say I rely on our papers i
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
_ - _ _ - =. .- . - _ . . . _ - - .- . . - _ .- _. - - _ . _
I 358 l r
A 17r45 1 when I heard something a little bit different today. . I ;
O 2 ehought conteneton 4 wes e1mg1y for reesens 1 d1do.e quite '
3 understand an allegation generally that multiple failures, l i
O 4 eomethins devond the sinsle fetlure criterion was needed i i
! e 5 in the safety analysis for Harris. Today it's asserted ;
i 55 3 6 that there is a problem with the construction that should i 7 require assumptions of multiple failures beyond what the f8 O
regulations require.
c; 9 I haven't heard it, and we would oppose the !
$ 10 contention.
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$ 11 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. Does the staff have i B
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o 12 anything to add?
Q 13 MR. BARTH: Nothing, Your Honor.
! ! 14 JUDGE KELLEY: Number 7 I guess is next.
j g 15 MR. EDDLEMAN: Number 7 says that the safety
, m:
-' 16
) d analysis, safety evaluation report, should incorporate a vs d 17 i comprehensive failure modes and effects analysis. I E
l 18 - think it's best to defer that until they come out with it.
E g 19 They might actually buy what Mr. Vastakus has been telling
, n 20 them, and that would make it moot.
I
! 21 JUDGE KELLEY: That should wait the appearance 22 of the SER?
! 23 MR. EDDLEMAN: R.igh t .
- 24 MR. BAXTER
- We are not in favor of deferral.
25 ' JUDGE KELLEY: You feel there is enough information?
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
i
h 359' 7r46 Ii MR. BAXTER: I think he should be able to formulate
() 2 his contention based on our application.
3 JUDGE KELLEY: Well, are you saying, Mr. Eddleman,
({} 4 that your real focus is going to be on the SER and you are e
Ei 5l1willing to withdraw with regard to the staff -- to the j 6 applicant's papers?
E 5 7 MR. EDDLEMAN: Well, no. If that's what he is R
j 8 saying, I have read some of the so-called failure modes and d
C 9 effects analyses in the FSAR, and I don't believe they are E,
y 10 adequate, but in order to specify it in the detail which I
$ 11 think Mr. Baxter would like to be satisfied -- and possibly a
y 12 the staff -- I would have to do it in writing, but I do not E
13 agree based on what I read in the FSAR that those FEMAs are
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s 14 sufficiently comprehensive and sufficiently anchored, 15 sufficiently supported.
j 16 , This is one where, you know, I might drop a lot
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6 of them; but this looks to me like it's really a crucial 5 :
{: 18 issue in terms of whether the plant is going to be safe, s
19 and I will probably drop most of the others before I let g
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20 go of this one if it turns out to have some -- some meat 21 to it in terms of their analysis.
-s 22 JUDGE KELLEY: One thing that might bear a little U
23 , talking about at this point because it does I think concern g~ 24 us in terms of how the process works . We had contentions V ll 25 filed as of I believe May the 14th that several petitioners i
l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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7r47 I hincludingyourselffiledsomelaterdocumentsandIbelieve o
V 2 for the most part at least the applicants and staff had 3/ simply responded to them and -- okay -- and then here we 1
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@ 6 factors and all the rest of that.
6 5 7ll I don't know that we are much disposed to go E
j 8 through that exercise now, but it's another matter to leave a
9 9 this conference and then go back to the drawing board and,
?
@ 10 you know, try again. I think we have got the things and 11 they stand submitted. Whatever problems they have -- they E:
j 12 are being raised and we will have to decide. That isn't 5 -
(^-) g 13 to say that you can't later file late contentions and get
@ 14 it in, but we can't go through a process whereby we are 5
15 sort of continually recycling and never getting to a ruling, j 16 MR. EDDLEMAN: Yes, sir, vs
!5 17 l JUDGE KELLEY: I think you follow me.
$ 18 MR. EDDLEMAN: I do. And I'm not proposing c
s 19 g that we do that. What I was saying, Mr. Baxter suggested n
20 that I don't have any problem -- didn't suggesc it but it's 21 a question whether I had any problem with the applicant's m 22 failure modes and effects analysis, and I do. If they (G
23 have to stand on that on the record, Judge. It's in the (q 24 board's discretion. I will go with whatever the board says.
v 25 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. I understand that, j
4 4
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
361 7r48 1 JUDGE CARPENTER: Mr. Eddleman, responding to your O 2 increduceery remerks eb - e what is e centent1. , you 3ust 3 made'the comment that you had read the failure modes effects O 4 anetyeie in FsAR. 1 em not eut on notice es to which ones e 5 you read and which ones you think are good, bad, or 8
@ 6 indifferent; so it's hard for me to understand what it is R
$ 7 you are contending, s
j 8 MR EDDLEMAN: I understand that, Judge, d
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. JUDGE CARPENTER: Whether it's all of them, g 10 some of them.
11 MR. EDDLEMAN: It's very difficult for me, is y 12 In the first place I am not sure I found them all. For c
Q 13 example, when they bring in amendments to the FSAR, they
@ 14 change the index to each volume, but at least prior to 15 Amendment 3 they didn't change the main index. If I g' 16 wanted to find out what was changed, I either had to I
g 17 I intercept that thing before it wa.s put into the book or M 18 else I had to look through every volume to see what had 0
g 19 been changed. I am not sure I found all the failure n
20 modes effects analysis.
21 In fact, one of them is referred to as a ewhere.
O i referen e s I wasn't able to -- this is part of 23 ' the consequence of having to go back and forth to the 24 libraries and copy things off and spend hours at the 25 I copying machine doing that. I wasn't able to get it all i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
3 .304 i
7r49 1 down. I would say to you -- okay -- part of this is_that IO 2 1 simg1x -- 1 den.t think enybody cou1d hend1e thet ve1eme 3 of material -- okay -- in the amount of time that we have i
O 4 soc. 1 meen Ce a t took veere to prepare it end the staff e 5 will take years to analyze it, but the petitioners are 8
j 6 supposed to prepare contentions based on it in four or G
E 7 five months I guess.
N g 8 This is what we had and with it out of our a
ci 9 possession in effect, it's off to the library, but the 10 library has certain hours it's closed. It was closed for 11 a week in May, completely closed.
@ I could get the 3,
p 12 documents there in Chapel Hill -- and I did.
E 13 But it's very hard to deal with this, and I
$ 14 did the best I can. I don't believe that FSAR is designed 5
y 15 to form a basis for pleading contentions. It is basically i
.] 16 CP & L's pitch to the NRC, yes, we are good and give us the s
17 license.
h f18 JUDGE CARPENTER: Yes, but you are now looking a 19 g at it and saying it's deficient in some way, and my point
, n 20 is broadly stated as you just expressed yourself, what we 21 might get for testimony is the whole FSAR verbatim.
' 22 MR EDDLEMAN: No, sir. With respect to failure 23 ; modes effects analysis. Right. Right. Of course, the
- 24 other thing is sometimes when I am reading for hours and 25 hours and I will look at this and my mind says, look, this '
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!! ' ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
i 363 7r50 1 ! doesn't make any sense; but I'm tired enough that I don't
() 2 have a comprehensive note of this is where I am reading 3 here or this is where I'm reading there, and this is what
() 4 is wrong with it. It's hard for me to figure out what is e 5 wrong. I have the same problem with the FSAR and the ER, A
a g 6 and I am not asking this as an excuse, but I an saying this G
$ 7 is a problem that I actually face.
E j 8 It's a practical problem. How do you make sense d
c; 9 out of that document?
s g 10 JUDGE CARPENTER: Well, it isn't that it's the Il most proper example, but it is a clear example. Instead s
g 12 of saying in their preamble management -- the management
=
13
({) fm contention as far as I could see in the introduction in a 5 I4 sense, rather than simply asserting that you have examined j= 15 one or two or three -- or however many you feel comfortable j 16 with -- failure modes effects now, and it appears to me they A
- 6 17 are deficient in the following ways, and that puts the E
M 18 applicants on notice as to what he has to defend himself 5
[ 19 against, and we understand what it is that you want to 20 address to this board.
21 MR. EDDLEMAN: I understand and I wish that I had l 22 done that and, you know, I had to do all.my own copying, 23 ,I my own typing and so on.
24 O 25 I
I l
! ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
Bal 1 364 1
1 JUDGE CARPENTER: I don' t want tc delay this anymore.
() 2 I just simply wanted to be responsive about your comment 3 about what is the contention. I think it's easier to define es 4
(_) what is not a contention than what is a contention.
g 5 MR. EDDLEMAN: Thank you. I agree.
H i j 6 May I take number fourteen and fifteen slightly R
b 7 out of order because that vill keep us flipping through the s
j 8 book in order?
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$ 9 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay.
$ 10 MR. EDDLEMAN: Number fourteen. I think the 5
Il 5 applicants and staff hold that this is a challenge to the a
g 12 rules boccuse need for power can't be considered. I say ind'
=
({)f13 and I stand on it that I'm not challenging their load 14 forecasts. What I am asserting is that in terms of operating r
C b 15 ! the plant it would certainly be nice if they had a market
=
j 16 for the power and I'd like to refer you to the testimony e i II
. of CP&L's witness Span. This is the transcript of the M 18
_ construction permit hearing. It starts in at 1731, and his 19 j j testimony isn't numbered, but this is attachment five to 20 his testimony which' is bound in at 1731 in that transcript, 21 dockets 5400 through 403 in 1977, where he gives the price elasticities of demand. It gives
(]) And I won' t belabor it.
23
, them in the range that I said here -- actually higher than 24 h a lot of parts than the range I've said here, and what I'm
(])
25 saying is when they operate this plant one of the effects ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
Sa2 365 1 . is, wham, it's in the rate base and the rates are going O 2 to go up and that has an effect on how much electricity 3 people can sell. And if the amount of electricity they O 4 can sell goes down', they still have to cover that fixed o 5 cost because the big thing at the Harris plant is going to b
l N I
6 l
be the fixed cost of it in the rate base, and, therefore, k7 a
if sales go dowc We rates go up even recre which makes the j 8 sales go down even . ae which gets them into really big d
o 9 trouble fairly fast. And I think that you might be showing
'd
@ 10 trercy to them[if the NRC can do this by not giving them an j 11 operating license so they won't get themselves into this
! B j 12 mess. That's the statement of that contingent.
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13 JUDGE KELLEY: Doesn't that still get you into
! 14 load forecast when you're talking about business --
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- 15
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MR. EDDLEMAN: No. I'm assuming load forecast
- j. 16 is correct, but they haven't taken into account what it's A
d 17 i going to do with their rates.
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18 JUDGE KELLEY: So the rates go up and you say the 19 n
loads will go down because people can't afford such high rates?
20 , MR. EDDLEMAN: Their witness says so, too. Okay.
21 Well, I'm not going to argue it.
22 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay.
23 Any comment?
24 MR. O'NEILL: We don' t have anything to add to our 25 final.
I i
- i. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
66 8c3 1 JUDGE KELLEY: Mr. Barth?
O 2 Ma. BAara, we neve nothine to edd, Your acner.
3 Earlier you suggested if we had something to add
.O 4 "e shouta o 11 1e to vo=r tee =tioa to so r==ter-
.e 5 JUDGE KELLEY: I'm just being sure. Okay.
A h 6 MR. EDDLEMAN: Okay. Number fif teen. Now,.let's R
g 7 see. The' basis of this was before they filed the s
[ 8 amendments and before the rule was changed on need for 0
d 9 power they presented ~an analysis of costs and benefits.
b g 10 By the way, they say, you know, you confused one E
j is 11 unit with all of them. I remember copying that out of a thing J
g,12 that was bent over and I didn't see that because some things E
13 were four units in the. right-hand column. In fact, as far
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l @ 14 as I recall,that page didn' t even say per unit per year, E
2 15 but then they have some of them as per unit and all in' the E
g[-16 same column. It was pretty confusing. But the point of that us
- g 17 is, I need to ask a questien about this one because it b 18 basically alleges that their cost benefit analysis is 5
19 seriously in error, seriously enough so if you counted the n
{
20 costs of the plant that hadn't been sunk yet that it 21 probably loses you money to operate it. And I understand 22 the NRC's passed this rule. What I need to know, and it 23l , may n6t be a simple answer ic, before the rule was passed l 24 ' how much of this might be heard? When are the sunk costs 25 determined for the determination of the costs and benefits, i
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
i 8c4 367 1 the operating license stage? Because the table that they've
() 2l filed and the -information they filed takes . it basically from 3 the year one.
() 4 JUDGE KELLEY: I'm not sure. I don't think I know e 5 the answer to your question. I'm not sure. They used to N
$ 6 litigate need for power in operating license cases. I could E
$ 7 never understand why. But I don't know the answer. I'm 8 ?
[ 8 corry. Do counsel? Can you be helpful at all d
d 9 MR. BAXTER:. No.
i n
g 10 MR. EDDLEMAN: Well, in that case I'll just leave
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M 11 this one to the board. And I do have put together some of j 12 l the parts of an affadavit and petition already and I hope to do 13 more of that as you suggested, Judge. You said take your
{~)
! 14 time if you can do it better. I think I can do a little 2 15 better if I take ny time.
N 16 MR. RUNKLE:
.] Why in the ER in the first place is a
17 ; there any mention of any costs and benefits and load if 5 18 l we cannot challenge them?
g 19 MR. E AXTER: As we explained yesterday, that n
20 environmental report was filed before the ccmmission passed 21 this rule and we are going to be amending the cost benefit r s. 22 section in the near future.
1 vJ 23 MR. RUNKLE: By removing?
l 24 MR. BAXTER: It won' t be removed altogether, but lots f3
%) l 25,; of features of it will be.
I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
i 368 8c5 '
l I
i 1y MR. EDDLEMAN: By the way, the applicant suggested p
V 2 h that I wasn't aware of come things when I wrote this. I 3 wrote these contingents about these in rough order that 4 they're in the amendment he*e, and it was only on May the lith n 5 I think or May the 10th af ter the library reopened that I P.
$ 6' even found out from an accession list or otherwise that they e7 5 7 filed that, that changed it back to two units and so on.
3
[ 8 So, you knou, I wasn't trying to fool the board or pull the d
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, wool over the applicant's eyes or anything. I was relying E
g 10 on what was out there.
N lI But I would like to call your attention to part of i::
12 amendment two to the ER, specifically table 8.1.1-1, which is Q 13 an estimated benefits of SHNPP. And I'll be brief.
m 5 I4 It states that the propertional distribution of 5
15 electrical energy per unit 1.96 kilowatt hours industrial, j 16 1.33 residential, 088 commercial, 0.02 highway, .11 public us h 17 i authority and 1.22 for resale, a total of about five and a 1 5 18 f half kilowatt hours. And I'm sure that's a typo, but that P
19 got past them in an amendment, so I think there's some basis g
r3 20 for my statement that they were using inaccurate information.
- 21 Number 37 is next. Many of these, as you have 22 O se,,,, ,,, ,,pe,,,,,, ,, ,,, 3c1,,c,,,,,,1,, ,,se,1,s 23
- effects. I believe that was stipulated in.
24 I don' t have a lot to add to what I wrote. I 25 think number A is the one that I think is important here, b ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
l 8c6 369 i ! particularly, you know, it may have need to be deferred in I
O 2 11ehe of whae the nRC eere eheue psycho 1osice1 etrees, sue, I
3 l years ago I was in a car accident and the person who was O 4 dea 11ne with me said "what ere you soins to do for vein end e 5 suffering?" I said "I'm glad I'm alive. What do you mean 7
el
$ 6 what am I going to do for pain and suffering?" He said G
g 7 "usually they give you three times the value of your medical l ;; '
l 8
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8 treatment and your monetary loss for that." And I sa'id l 0
- ci 9 "well, you know, we'll see."
i h 10 But the point is that when somebody dies of cancer,
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$ 14 time usually and it's not a very pleasant experience. And it l
l 9 15 seems to me that that's a cost and that's an environmental 5
y 16 impact of those deaths that I think everybody admits that us
!;[ 17 i some deaths will result from the operation of a nuclear plant, l y ;
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l E 18 and the production of the fuel for its operation. I think
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$ 19 , everybody admits that. They argue about how many and so on, n 1 20 but I think in everything that I've seen people have never 21 considered the pain and suffering of these people, the pain i
22 and suffering of their relations and so on. For example, 23 , being a teacher --
Q U 24j JUDGE KELLEY: Can I just get clear --
25 MR. EDDLEMAN: Thirty-seven.
! ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
P 370 8c7 !
l 1 JUDGE KELLEY: Right. Thirty-seven is what you're
<g kJ 2 on.
i 3 MR. EDDLEMAN: Page 106 at the top is where I am, l
() 4 Judge.
g 5 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. And my question is, given the Q
h 6 i stipulation N of the joint contention on haalth effects, R
$ 7 are you now just focusing on things that you think are
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j 8 not in the stipulated contention?
d d 9 MR. EDDLEMAN: Yes, Judge.
E, G 10 . JUDGE KELLEY: Okay.
E 11 MR. EDDLEMAN :
@ Now, if you think this is, Judge, I a
j 12 might say it is, but ...
/' 3 t,_) 5 13 (Board discussion) m 14
$ JUDGE CARPENTER: I'm confused now. Are you 5
15 suggesting that you want to propose additional contentions?
j 16 MR. EDDLEMAN: No, Judge. I'm standing on this one, e
h I7 l this 37A. I'm saying, in other words, the ones that are E
g 18 superseded by the joint contention I have listed off. I 19 believe they're like C, G, 8,9, and 10,- but whatever I said g
VCLLY 20 that~there is what stands on that.
21 Okay. I've got some others. C, F, H, 9 and 10.
() 22 But there are some things in here that I don't 23 think are adequately covered. I'm going to stand on the 24
(]) wording, but this particular one, 37A I though was worth 25 l talking a little bit about. I think when you consider Ehe n ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
8c8 -
371 I
I environmental impact of this that you don't say just these O 2 guys die or even just these guys die and their lives are i
3 Iworth $300,000 each, but you say these are real live human l
O 4 beinee end ther die and ther suffer and the=e is somethins I
e 5 to that, too. It's not that they're cleanly killed or --
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$ 6 I don't think there's any merit in killing them cleanly G
$ 7 either, and that's what I'm talking about here. And I M
j 8 basica3 ly stand on this as filed. If they trant more --
t 3
d 9 I think this is one that says -- you know, common sense
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$ 10 tells you this, if you want to risk analysis that says
- $ 11 something about it I can probably dig one out of my files.
1 5:
- j 12 JUDGE KELLEY
- What you're focusing on now, if
- E '
] x 13 I understand you, is the psychological stress that
!! 14 accompanies, let's say, death by cancer?
i
{* 15 MR. EDDLEMAN: Yes. The pain and suffering z
- gj 16 is the word I used, but it may be characterised, but like x
!' d 17 I said, the NRC guidance on psychological stress says ycu've s I
{ 18 got to include this. It may be that the NRC says that
' E g 19 psychological stress is just worrying about it and not the n
20 actual effects when they happen, and in that case this 21 pain and suffering is something different, but it may 22 overlap. I don' t know.
23 , JUDGE KELLEY: I'm wondering myself. I don ' t 24 know the answer, but there's a recent decision which directs I thought that was stress 25 l the NRC to consider stress.
=
- i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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8c9
! 372 I
1 l occasione.1 by fear that a plant was going to have an 7
O 2 l eccidene and that eore of thine, noe vain and sufferine i
3 f associated, let's say, with dying by cancer. .
O 4 un soots"^u= niene- raat' =r understandine s 5 too, and I think it's my contention 87 on psychological 5 i
$ 6i stress that speaks to that, what you're talking about.
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$ 7-I We'll get to it.
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{ 8 JUDGE KELLEY: But at any rate you now are d
d 9 focusing on parts that you don't think are included in
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@ 10 the joint contention?
j 11 MR. EDDLEMAN: Right, and I just leave the others a
y 12 to the board. I think number D there's a basis in NRC E
Q 13 translation 520. I managed to get a copy out of the NRC j 14 here now so if applicants need to look at it, NRC translation U
2 15 520, it's available from the public document room for a 5
j 16 nickel a page. They may have it in their files. I don't vi p 17 l know. But, you know, the others that are not superseded in
, h 18 37 I'm just saying let them stand. Eight and sixty-nine I 5
$ 19 think pretty much the same way. I mean -- I don'.t know.
n 20 l Maybe I should come '.o them explicitly. I'm just taking 21 the ones in order that I had, but I said that those two n 22 were rather related. Eight is the one about fuel cycle V
23lj effects. I think it's pretty clear health of that effluents 24 in that table S3, whether table S3's any good or not, of 25 course -- and I am a member of NRDC and there's that court ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
373 8cl0 !
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i 1 case, but until the commissioa acts, etc.
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I think that for a moment --
MR. DARTH: I got lost.
o 3] i How do we get on eight i) s_ 4 i, from 37A? I'd like to follow this.
3 50 MR. EDDLEMAN: I just blindly followed n.y list, N !
h 6 ! and if you notice where it says 8 I've done one of my G
6 7 inundations here and said' really 37 was the prima contention g"I
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8 on that and 69 and 8 were re 8 Neje, relcted to it and I d
y 9 just commented on 8 but I said I thought I was getting a z
o G 10 little out of order.
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)M 11 MR. BARTH: Thank you, Mr. Eddleman.
j 12 MP EDDLEMAN: I thought it was gsod that you
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wj y 13 l could litigate the effects of the effluents from the
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$ 14 health cycle and I proposed to do that -- EUEM fuel cycle.
$ l 2 15 Pardon me.
d 16 , MR. RUNKLE: I would like to question this v i p 17 t disposition of putting this off -- deferring this contention N
{._
18 until the commission does issue guidance to licensing A
19 boards g I think if table S3 has been kicked out by a court n
20 case I think that this is an area that needs to be litigated 21 now. Maybe by the time we get around to the hearings it 22 j may not be, but I think that the validity of table
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23 ' been severely questioned in waiting until the commission 24 decides I don't think maybe years in the future.
(~j]
m 25 ) JUDGE KELLEY: I don't think that's terribly d
I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
. _ _ . . _ _ _ _ . . _ . . ~ _
acil 37i 1 likely. I don't believe the mandate in that case has issued, O 2 ! se that if thae.s true ae ehts time it has no hinding ifs 3 [;offect on the cenmission. The commission as indicated O 4 ear 11er ther miehe seek reheari=9 o= ther mer so to the g 5 Supreme Court. I don't agree with your observation thct 0
@ 6 it's right for us to just march on without having any direction e7 f; 7 from the commission.
N E, 8 MR. DAXTER:. Mr. Chairman, I have information on
, d
- i 9 that. Rehearing was petitioned for and already denied by
- . b 10 the court. The NRC along with other participants have
]
3 11 already filed for a stay of the mandate and the commission's y 12 announced that it's asked the solicitor general to seek 5
13 Supreme Court review.
z 5 I4 JUDGE KELLEY: Thank you. Excuse me just a moment.
15 j Let's take another ten-minute break.
y 16 (Recess) n f
=
I7 l JUDGE KELLEY: Back on the record. We'll resume 18 b discussion on Mr. Eddleman's contentions.
i:-
I9 i s er MR. EDDLEMAN: I believe we're at number 46. And 20 with respect to numbers 46 and 47 Mr. O'Neill will make a 21 couple of statements which I think I'm going to agree to.
I Q 22 l 3
MR. BARTH: Sir, for a moment. I'm trying to
- 23 ; follow this. As I look at the 20 the next bracket is 24 69, 8 and 14. I don't know where 46 comes from, 25 a'
- MR. EDDLEMAN: The parenthesis you should ignore.
)
- ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
9 8c12j 375 1
If you were a computer programmer you'd ignore everything O 2 inparenthesis. vcu have 37 and 14 and 15 are taken 3 out of order. I said I was. 57's really up next, but O 4 we're going to take care of 46 and 47 because that's th:2 uay e 5 you turn the pages.
il
- j. 6 Number 46'is on page 125 and number 45 is on page e7 8 7 127.
7.
y 8I JUDGE KELLEY: Right, d
d 9 MR. EDDLEMAN: I apologise for any'inconvenienco.
N g 10 MR. BAXTER: Would you use the microphone, Mr.
I l E
h 11 Eddleman?
E:
y 12 MR. EDDLEMAM: I just don't like to use that Q 13 electricity.
! 14 MR. O'NEILL: Mr. Chaiman, Mr. Eddleman has asked 15 l
me if I would read onto the record to satisfy his concerns y 16 about the neutron shield and embrittled bolts which is -- was e
17 5
the basis of his contention 46, that in fact the Harris design
{ 18 does not employ a single neutron shield but rather a neutron P
19 n
shield pad assembly consisting of four pads that are bolted 20 and pinned to the outside of the core barrel and that's 21 freferencing rSAR section 3.9.5.1, and I believe Mr. Eddleman I
(] 22 and I have discussed this and that satisfies his concern.
23 MR. EDDLEMAN: Yeah, but the point I'm gctting at 24 L is your statement a littl farther on. I knew it was 25 ! pads, but the point is that the analysis says the pins are f
l
- ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
376' 8cl3 3 l
l i f going to hold that thing in place come hell or high water even I
() 2 if the bolts fail, and that's the point. I mean, if that's 3 h true I don't have any basis for this and that's what I wanted
() 4 j
on the record, so I'm withdrawing that, g 5 JUDGE BRIGHT: You're withdrawing 46?
M 6l MR. EDDLEMAN: I'm withdrawing 46. l 1 !
( 7 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay, I Z
j 8 MR. O'NDILL: Also with respect to 47, Mr. Eddleman, d
d 9 I believe you were nost concerned here now with respect I
@ 10 to the copper content of the welds?
3 l j 11 MR. EDDLEMAN: The copper phosphorous and a
12 venadium. I think we went over that. If you just
- y -
13 , reference the tables that's all I want, if those tables
(])
y 14 show what you purport to show. I just want it referenced b
l !
w 15 in the record.
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.'j 16 MR. O 'NEILL: This really references Mr. Eddleman's e
l @ 17 , June 28th amendment where he discusses the copper content of N
M 18 the welds in the reactor vassel, and in our response to that 6
[n 19 dated July 13th,1982 on page 12 we give the FSAR tables which 20 set forth the venadium copper and phosphorous weld metal 21 content. Those are FSAR tables 5.3.1-7 for unit one and i
(} 22 I
5.3.1-10 for unit two.
23 These icvels are considerably less than those that 24 Mr. Eddleman had some concern about, I believe.
)
25 MR. EDDLEMAN: That's right.
i.
h ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
'8c14 377 1 And just to follow up, you also stated that the 2 , base metal also met those c~riteria for the percentages of I
3 those metals. And what I did, I spoke to Sir Alan Cottrell 4 and I then consulted various experts at MIT department of 7'
- s 5 metalurgy, Dr. Steele from the fburea\t'of f' standards, Art Lche
- ) (, Q ,- ' r-
@ 6 of Babcock and- Willcox and others who all basically
& .3 6 7 told me if it's a point.three copper and up or has a R
j 8 significant amount of these others in it, then you have a d
2 9 basis for concern. It might embrittle much faster.
$ 10 /I'm g I'm doing this to get on record the basisU /p 5 1I withdrawing this one, too. In other words, if this a
y," 12 basis turns out to be false then I might come back. I E
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i don e think ie ie, but I'm suse guetiny the besis of the
! I4 withdrawal on the record.
15
{= JUDGE KELLEY: I understand that. That's an y 16 appropriate thing to do.
vs f I7 MR. EDDLEMAN: And I'm withdrawing on that 18 basis, w I9 g Now, in pagination order number 54 is next, even e.
20 though 57 was earlier on the list, so I propose to turn over 21 to number 54.
O 22 2his 1,the security p1an, and to the extene that 23 it addresses 50.13, which is the rule about not being able 24 to stand military equipment, I think the correct course for 25 ,'
me is a prcposed rule-making.
i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
Sc15 I 3 j JUDGE KELLEY: What page is it on?
4 h 2 MR. EDDLEMAN: Page 143, Judge.
54- 1 3
, MR. RUNKLE: I also notice 54, too. There are
() 4 two 54s. One on page 139.-
5 MR. EDDLEMAN: Yes. I'm sorry. Tha t was a e
Ti 4 6 misnumbering.
e 7 Well, 54-1 and 54-2 really deal with the same 8 problem, but 54-2 is the security plan aspect of it. And d
g 9 what I'm saying is I've talked to a lawyer, I've pursued i
i fE 10 experts, I'm going to join in with the group. We're 5 11 thinking about getting together maybe a joint attorney and d 12 a joint c:: pert to take a look at that security plan and 3
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13 formulate contentions on that basis, so I think this should
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E 14 be deferred until we get a chance to look.
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! 15 By the way, I have experienced considerable 5
. .] 16 difficulty in finding somebody who's clearly qualified in this.
2 6 17 I mean, just locating a person. I've been at the FBI, the 5 -i
$ 18 CID at Fort Brag and all over the place. And I asked the P V
[ 19 NRC too and the guy said "Do you want me to shoot m'uself in A
20 the foot?" In other words, he wasn' t going to help me 21 out. In other words, what I'm saying is, I'm not sure that 22 30 days is enough time for me to get moved on this, but I'm
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23 going to try to do it and I'll try to do it within a reasonable gg 24 time . I think if 90 days has gone past and I can't do it I'm
(/ 4 25ygoingtohavetodropit. -
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1 i JUDGE KELLEY: Let me be clear. Mr. Payne of Kudsu,
() 2 [I believe, was going to pursue this and his next step was 3 to see if he could find an expert and see how he makes out
() 4 in that regard. Are you in concert with 2k , Payne or are i e 5 you on a separate track?
A.
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@ 6, MR. EDDLEMAN: I've been separate so far, Judge, but R
$ 7 the applicants suggested that we might want to get together i a I
$ 8 and I think that might be constructive. Now, I'm not d
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, suggesting that -- I think it might be useful. I've even
$ 10 talked about hiring another attorney. I've discussed 11 this a litt1b bit with the applicants and I've said, e
y 12 "You'll throw me entirely out of this and make my attorney E
(]) j 13 come in and talk for me if I'm hiring an attorney for this w
5 14 purpose", and they said probably not. You know, see --
15 if I can' t look at it, and I'm not quarrelling about that.
16 I don't want to look at the thing.
d I want an expert to look e
17 at it, but if I can' t do it and I have to have a lawyer to i
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18 look at it, then they've got me in a Catch-22 Then your P
"g 19 lawyer has to represent you in every other thing.
n 20 MR. BAXTER: All right. The point was not whether --
21 ' we agree with Mr. Eddleman if he retained a lawyer for the I
22
]{) , security plan phase of the case he could still represent 23j himself for all other things. That's what we agreed to.
i l 24 MR. EDDLEMAN: All right.
(]} That's what I was 25 . trying to say.
, ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
380 8cl7 [
1 JUDGE KELLEY: That seems to , follow; yes.
2 MR. EDDLEMAN: So I'm just aying that, I would , 1 l
3 l like to defer this until I can get back in contact with 4 an expert and then if I can' t manage it within a reasonable l
e 5 time, which I think is 90 days, I'll drop it.
] n h 6l JUDGE KELLEY: That seems satisfactory. Okay.
g .
$ 7 MR. EDDLEMAN: Okay. Number 57. This is an s
j 8 emergency plan, one that's pretty comprehensivo and it was d
C 9 draf ted under the apprehension of the Catawba thing. You
$ 10 got to remember when I wrote these things up I had no idea 11 what position the staff and the applicants were going to is l 12 take in here. 'I was afraid they'd be as obnoxious as the Q 13 ones in Catawba and say that "you can' t d'o anything. You've l 14 got to use your x-ray vision of the future to project what's 15 in this document, tell us exactly what's wrong with it and
.'j 16 not only that, work voodoo on us so that we don' t correct it A
17 by the time we write the thing so that you can have a
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5 y 18 contention", and I addressed that, I think, in my'initicl, P
19 you know, pleadings starting off my contentions.
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20 But at any rate, since these folks seem to be 21 more reasonable I think the best thing to do is to defer t
22 this one until the plan comes out and let me look at it and f) v
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23 l see if I think something's w:ong with it, and that's what I l
24 propose. .
25 JUDGE KELLEY: And that's really consistent'with i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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3l MR. . EDDLEMAN : Right. And,'you know, I think it ,
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@ 6l you know, hang out at, the' County Commissioner's office and.
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-$ 7
) get it, but I'll do everything I can to get' the thing as soon v
l t 8' as I can and4 file it.
c} 9 JUDGE KELLEY:' 'I believe that applicants indicated 4
s .. .
5 h 10 carlier .their intention' to 2sort of serve the intervenor -
j 11 parties. '
is y 12 MR. BAXTER: 'Ihat's right. I said yesterday we c
13 recogni::ed the interest in a hearing on this and we're .
l 14 interested in.getting. started, so as soon as we get it we b.
. i g 15 will serve'it.
t f 16 f MR. EDDLEMAN: Now, numbers 59 and 60, if I can u
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17 take them together. 59 51s on page 158.
~
60 follows it on y 18 page 161. These tsd are basically addressing changes in
+
P e-gg g what the CP was issued on, and according to the NRC's rule n
20 now that doesn't happen, so I'm just going to leave them for 21 the board to rule on. I think they're going to be 22 considered challenges to the rule. I want to challenge I
23 ;cthat rule, tco, but I know I have to do it in the appropriato
(. e 24 form.
25 l I really don't think that the NRC is doing the ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
! 382 Sc19 1! people of North Carolina a favor by letting us lose an I
h 2 [ additional two or three billion bucks on this deal, but then, h
3 l you know, it may not be the NRC's responsibility at all.
I O 4l Nu ber 64. This is about spent fuel and, well, e 5l ; I have two things to say about it. One is the applicant's N
$ 6 argument. It strikes me as one of these nice, clever
- r. t R i g 7 legal arguments that makes sense if you follow their
- 7. -
l 8 assumptions, but in another way makes no sence, and here's d
ci 9 the way I take it doesn't make any sense. Even if they z
h 10 have a license at Robinson and Brunswick to ship their' spent g 11 fuel anywhere it needs to go, and that is included in 3: ricv.J s '
g 12 those plans' licenses; nevertheless, if the operating license E.
13 for Harris didn't include the authority to receive and store l$ 14 that spent fuel it wouldn't come here.
E 15 Now, they applied to do this, and, therefore, I N 1 y 16 think the impact on this area -- you're talking about the t
17 l area within 50 miles of the plant, the zone of interest, 18 the impacts on this area from that table actually are 1_. 19 occasioned by the license having those provisions in it n'.
20 to accept and store the spent fuel.
21 Now, so what I'm saying is, in other words, if I
22 lthey didn't have the operating license or even if they 23 didn't have this provision in the license, this wouldn't 24 l be here, so I think it's worth considering and I'll just p%) i 25 [ 1 eave it for the board to rule on that basis.
l -
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! ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC. l
'8c20 383 i
j .The other thing is I drafted a -- let's sec. It's q (]) 2 called a revised Eddleman 64X. Let's see if I can lay i i.
l my hands on it. I hcnded them out to everybody else.
) 3 JUDGE KELLEY:
(]) 4 I' ve go t them.
5 201. EDDLEMAN: I can't reach it. Here it is. Okay, e
e i
j 6 This one, the written stuff down at the bottcm m
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7 really raises another issue, the handwritten stuff. I just j- 8 think you can ignore that. That is the environmental n
N 9 effects and so on. I can raise that at the time the ER
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E h 11 things and one of them is - explicitly referred to in my d 12 contention that's already come in before. That is that the z
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trans-shipment means when .you take it to Harris, unload it
{ ({} 13 E 14 to store it, then you got to load it' back to take it away
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! 5 15 wherever it. goes af ter that, so you're actually loading i 10 4
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.- 16 and unloading fuel twice more 'than you would if you just
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- 6 17 left it at Brunswick and then shipped it away frem Brunswick l M 18 in a unit train when Brunswick runs out of steam, so I think 5
- 19 there's an environmental impact of bringing it up here l 20 that comes from taking the fuel up here and unloading it and 21 loading it again at some future date to take it away. And 22 that's basically addressing fuel handling.
4
)
4 23 l Now, the applicants say a . fuel handling accident has 24 minimal consequences, you knou. Now, under Murphy's Law 25 $ we'll see what.happens. I have in some of my other contentions
- 9 l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
a 384 8c21 0 1 l referred to, and particularly 628 amendment I cited the best (qJ lj 2 , cource I had, and I've actually been en the phone to Dr.
I 3 [ Resnikov and others trying to get th more ~ precise cites a
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(_) 4l for those statements about how the things can leave and i
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5! they've' not been tested, but I'll let that stand on its c m n l N
e 6l merits in the amendment. But what I'm saying is that t
k7 about handling twice is already in my stuff explicitly and I j 8 think implicitly the first paragraph is, too. It talks e
d 9 about the -- I'm talking about the integrity of this d I E 10 building in a number of these things. And all of a sudden x
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< 11 ' your tornado missile resistent building -- and I picked b
- j 12 tornado missiles because that's supposed to show how tough
(~') E 13 it is. In other words, I figure if it'll handle a tornado v p, j 14 missile then it'll also handle, you know, a pitchfork tossed 2 15 attit.or ra thand: grenade, or, you know, something else flying 5
y 16 by. You know, it has to be tougher to withstand the tornado 7;
6 17 ;
missile than almost anything else except the earthquake maybe, 5 i M 18 and I think it's seismic too. I think they do have a seismic f
E 19 design for the pools.
A k
20 At any rate, but all of a sudden units three and 21 four aren' t there any more, and that's changed since they i
("') 22 l docketed this. Units three and four had a ccnnectier to xs l 23 l that and that connection I presume involves some kind of 6
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24 opening. In fact, I know it had to involve some kind of
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25 gopening.
What I'm saying is, they might not have made l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
l 3
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l 385
- 1. t that outside wall there tornado missile resistent because
() 2 the units were going to be there, and if you've got a tornado 3 missile resistent containment sitting on the other side of
() 4 your wall why make the wall in the middle tornado missile g 5 resistent too? It almost couldn't get to it if unit threc
@ 6 and four were going to be there, except that three and four R
$ 7 are never going to be there. Maybe unit two's not going s
j 8 to be there , but, you know, that's the question that can ccme 0
0; 9 up.
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y 10 So those are the two pieces. So I propose this j 11 as a rewording. It's not twenty-five words or less. It's b
f 12 probably seventy-five words or less, but it's a rewording
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13 of what I think are the basis and specificity problem parts
$ 14 of 64.
2 15 Mr. Baxter and I have discussed somewhat formally E*
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16 which ones are the basis and specificity now, I hope fitting i
d 17 l in with what he wants, but, you know, I'll let him say.
5 k 18 JUDGE KELLEY: 64X is now offered as a substituto P
$ 19 for 64?
M 20 MR. EDDLEMAN: Yeah, for those parts of 64 which 21 the applicant objected to on basis and specificity. He says
() 22 it's only part of it.
23 ,
} JUDGE KELLEY: So 64X is a supplement to 64?
(]) 24li MR. EDDLEMAN: Yes. I think it basically restates, 25 l you know, that's what it's meant to be. It vould -- I can' t --
k 0 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
386 8c22 ti Il C
1 j parta of 64 I think the applicants object to because there are 2 challenges to rules and so on. Okay. There are some parts 3 that they don't appear to object to on that basis. This is p) s.
4l a substitute which would supersede those parts that they a 5 object to simply because they don't have basis and specificity.
j 6 JUDGE XELLEY: Is it going to become evidenced to it
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7 us when we read 64 -- 64X in the applicant's objection to j 8 64? Just what is the contention?
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} 9 MR. EDDLEMAN: Well, 64X is the contention. As E
h 10 to what they objected to, I think you have to go to them.
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M 11 JUDGE xELLE'Y: I just worry about knowing what the
- j 12 contention is. Do you want us to rule on 64X?
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(n; 13 MR. EDDLEMAN: Yes, I want you to rule on that, and z
5 14 I think you'll probably rule on the parts of 64 just saying, 8
15 well, this is a challenge to the rule to the extent they're j
. 16 , required for that, but I'm not sure. It is broken down.
- i
% 17 'i It is A, B, C and so on, and I think there's parts, you know, i
{ 18 give you some idea of what the allegations are, and the 628 i~
19 g amendments give some more basis to parts of it, oh, particularly 20 l parts E and -- let's see -- E, F,
! ,, H, I. I may have made 21 a couple of mistakes in this lettering, but I think that O 22 x__ e4x 1,a1mose a separate thing a,out emergency p1anning 23 for this. So it will probably be deferred to emergency
(] 24 planning.
25ji And the reference to Dr. Resnikov's work, h'e d
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387 8c231 _.
, published a sort of a reprint of this study that's coming
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(_- 2 out in the Fall of '82 in the Waste Paper which is a publication i
of the Sierra Club Radioactive Waste Unit thing in the
{) 4 Spring of 1982, and I have a copy of -that, and if the m 5 applicants can't dig it out of what they're resources are
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e all supplies and. one, a xerox copy of the article.
E 7
JUDGE KELLEY: Let. me mention on the record just S
}a 8 the possibility, I think we now have spent fuel contentions j 9 from at least three different intervenors proposed, and a
p the board may consolidate those in some fashion.
e 10 z
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d 12 MR. BAXTER: Yeah. Mr. Chairman, we responded F.
to the original contention 64 on June 15, and after Mr.
(: ) =3' 5 14 Eddleman had a chance to review that response we got an x
b y 15 amended contention 64 on June 28th. We filed a response E
16 to that yesterday. This one is not maybe substantially 2
- 17 different, but it's slightly different, and we've received y
E 18 some other papers today that I would presume are going to
=
! { j9 be addressed to substitutes. We didn't object on timeliness 5
{ 20 grounds to the June 28th amendment, but the time has come 21 where we are going to, and neither Mr. O'Neill or I are I
- () 22 going to be in a position to respond substantively to whether 23 l or not the basis or specificity or other legal objections
. 't 24 may obtain to these new things that are being passed out i ()
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25 ; today, and we' re just going to have to avail ourselves of ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
Sc24 388 1
the opportunity to respond in writing and we will be raising
() 2 timeliness consi.derations at this point. '
3 JUDGE KELLEY: Mr. Barth?
() 4 MR. BARTH: We're not prepared to addrecs the e 5 contention at this point, Your Honor. I think it's best P.
5 6i to make no comment. I haven' t the foggiest idea what he's e t 7 been talking about the last five minutes. Contentions 8
8 8 are passed out every ten minutes of this hearing.
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d 9 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. Let's go on.
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$ 10 MR. EDDLEMAN: Okay. I think it's pretty clear what E_
5 11 my position is, and I think this just restates what I've U
d 12 already said, so I'll go on from there. Let's see. The next z -
E C one on my list is 7 . I believe that's loss of control
(]) 13 j 14 power.
2 15 I don't know. At some point I wanted to come back and E
.~ 16 pick up 42, which isn't in this list in this order, but I 3
I l @ 17 j have something on it that I can get out of my way. May I 5
M 18 just go to 42 now?
=
H E 19 JUDGE KELLEY: Yeah.
2 20 MR. EDDLEMAN: Number 42.
21 JUDGE KELLEY: Is that on the list of the top twenty?
r~N 22 MR. EDDLEMAN: I don't think it's on that list, but
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we had a discusion about -- I've got a number of housekeeping 23f i 24 things. I just realized that I have promised to dig out a 25 , thing about where the FSAR had said something about the --
I i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
8c25 ! Ok ay. Sorry.
g 389 j Number 42 is a quality assurance thing as I consider Q 2 it, and what I have is the statement that the --
JUDGE KELLEY: If there's some special reason for 3
Q 4 bringing it in at this point?
MR. EDDLE'<iAN: Yes, so I can get this thing out of g 5 e,
my stack and not have to worry about where it is, and then I 6
E P
.g can do the stuff more expediciously.
7 8
JD M: Okay.
N 9 MR. EDDLEMAN: Okay. Yesterday the chairman kindly
- /
$ 10 supplied me with a copy of the NRC staff's analysis. I don't C
Z l j jj know what it's entitled Preliminary Assessment or the 12 Organization and Management of Carolina Power and Light Company 9
for peration of the Shearon. IIdrris Nuclear Power 31 ant.
Q 13 E 14 I haven' t had a chance to review it in great detail. Just 5
$ 15 when I looked at it it seems to summari::e things mostly on s ?
the basis of boxes and qualifications and even total ammassed J 16 2
37 ; years of experience in nuclear. These people have 1257 years b 18 f experience among them and the like.
E t-j9 , I don't consider that analysis, and they say it's 9
25 20 Preliminary, but, you know, I'm just saying that to state 21 what my position in, but I'm not endorsing this thing as an 22 adequate analysis. But one of the things that I noted here on Page 13 at the bottom -- or rather near the bottom of that, 23 l 24 they're talking about Shearon IIarris Nuclear Power Plant.
The SALP -- let's see. I think that's the systematic 25l i
i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
Ge26 3901 1 assessment of licensing performance review board. And I
(^) 2 refer to the SALP in some of my updates. I think probably
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3 the 628 one may be the 6-5.
O 4 The cv a t verformance of 11 censed activity eurins e 5 plant construction has been slightly below average for plants e
N h 6 under the jurisdiction of NRC region two. The board attributes 7 this performance rating to a lack of effectiveness of CP&L's M
l 8 quality assurance / quality control program for identifying and a
ci 9 correcting problems. The report noted that this problem Y U.:w.kt
$ 10 area has been highlighted to the NRC resident expector for 3
j 11 continued close scrutiny, and that goes on'to to say that s
y 12 CP&L's overall performance was below average, and number two i
13 exculpates that a little bit.
l$ 14 At any rate, in my 28 amendment I addressed their 2 15 QACC analysis, and tho' applicant came back to me and said E
y 16 he hadn't 1 coked at what we've got in FS'AR I think it's 17 --
us y 17 it's section 17.2. Now, this is at page 23. I'm really N
M 18 trying to get through this as simply as I can. Page 23 of the 5
{M 19 June 28th amendment. It's contention 41 actually, not 42.
20 I think 42 will fall into it.
21 Okay. My problem with that, I read that analysis.
22 I really looked over it in detail.
23 JUDGE KELLEY: Is that page 23?
i 24l MR. EDDLEMAN: It's June 28, 1982 amendment page 23.
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25 i
- ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
y 391 9rl 1 JUDGE KELLEY: I'm looking at Page 23.
O 2 xa. EontExiN: e-28-82 amendment.
3 JUDGE KELLEY: What page?
O 4 sa. EontEaAN: Pege 23.
e 5 JUDGE KELLEY: I'm looking at --
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@ 6, MR. EDDLEMAN: Contention 41 toward the bottom R
$ 7 Everybody got it? It gives ' job description and gives an n
j 8 outline of what the program does, but it does what the d
9 9 procedures were written. It basically to me -- it's a 10 cartoon that says what will be done and what will be
$ 11 assured. It's just a bald claim. It will do such and is j( 12 such. It looks like a commercial for something, but it's Q 13 not a basis, and I have laid out a bunch of questions about 14
$ it in there that I think I need an answer to even say if the s '
15 thing is valid or not, and I don't think I can even answer g' 16 on that basis, so anyway this really -- the Contention 41 I
g 17 l -amendment here on Page 23 of the June 28th amendment, what l
{c 18 I think takes this original 41 and 42 and it says pretty 19 n
h much what needs to be said about it,.and if they say you 20 haven't said what the problem is, that it really needs to l
21 be -- I think I do say it needs to be corrected, and basis 22 I think is provided in this NRC evaluation of CP & L's 23 i management, that the QA is one of their biggest weaknesses, 24 " and they are constructing Harris, so I think that would be I
25 ; a good substitute is what I am saying. Shorter substitute, i.
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592 1 Easier to review for 41 and 42 in my original, so then I
() 2 would.-- I would let this supersede'those with the 3 understanding that they are -- that its grandparents or O( / 4 whatever and if you want to know what I mean, maybe they n 5 can shed some light on it. If they confuse.you, don't E
j 6 deal with them.
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$ '/ JUDGE KELLEY: Mr. Baxter, you have responded to-M
[ 8 the 6-28 amendment?
d 4 9 9 MR. BAXTER: Yes, sir.
$ 10 JUDGE KELLEY: Go ahead.
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W 11 MR BAXTER: Well, I just heard him say I think j j 12 that he was going to substitute what he just said for all
. E 13 this, and what he just said was something having to do with
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$ 14 construction quality assurance at Harris based on the staff's 15
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l j 16 MR. EDDLEMAN: I was explaining why this amended l
d 17 ' 41 that's in the 6-28 amendment is adequate contention.
E M 18 MR. BAXTER: Let me just put it this way. We 5
h 19 responded to an allegation of FSAR Section 17.2 which is n
20 about the operations QA program. That's what we understood l 21 the contention to be. If Mr. Eddleman wants to amend it, he l'
22- will have to do that in writing; and we will respond to it
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23 that way.
24 For my purposes, I can't respond to that.
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9r3 1 and construction QA are different. things-and they don't have O 2- enythins to do with each othere 3 MR. BAXTER: I. am not going 'to make a sweeping O 4 statement that nothius hes anythins to do with anythins else.
e- 5 but we are certainly two different programs and two -- and we O
@- 6' are not litigating here the quality assurance.of.the R
8 7 construction program. That was done at the CP stage.
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$ 8 Mk. EDDLEMAN: Well, I think that the ability of d
- i 9. the construction QA to make sure-the plant is ready.to go
-G 10 is definitely at issite and that the postoperation is a
@ 11 . cartoon. It's a cartoon. If you want to defer that, then a
p 12 1.will defer it. I E
- Q 13 JUDGE KELLEY: I understand the different points-
$ 14 of view, and we will simply make a ruling on it.
5 2 15 JUDGE CARPENTER: Mr. Eddleman, if I can, wasn't E
.j' 16 this a case where the board must look to see that the v5 (E 17 general design criteria have been complied with? To say.
{ 18 that the operating considerations should in some way 0
19 acknowledge an imperfection in construction, no way.
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'20 Various pieces of regulations that the applicant is 21 responsible for complying with will be complied with.
O ' " ""*- '"t" i" 9"" t'7t"8 6" " ""d ' "'"- '*" 7 23 doesn't add any strength to your argument and tends to 24 confuse the issues.
25 MR. EDDLEMAN: All right, i
l i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
394 l 9r4 1i . JUDGE CARPENTER: Do you see my point? The 2 construction must be up to speed and all aspects of the 3 operating system including operating procedures must stand O 4 on their own merite end the crose-teta between your 4 5 consideration is more confusing -- more confusing to me 9
@ 6 than helpful.
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$ 7 MR. EDDLEMAN: All right.
E j 8 JUDGE CARPENTER: And it doesn't beg -- you see, 0
C 9 you are really begging more concern in your mind about
$ 10 some construction deficiency that should be compensated 11 for in the operation. That is not the way the board can E:
y 12 look at it.
5 Q m 13 MR EDDLEMAN: Let me respond to that, g 14 JUDGE CARPENTER: I was making an observation 15 in passing, not really specifically wanting to replow that j 16 one.
us Lj 17 MR EDDLEMAN: Judge, if you will let me, I E
M 18 think you have in effect suggested that this ought to be 5
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6 19 split into two things. One about the construction QA,-QC, 20 which the board is responsible for being done right, and I 21 will probably have a coa: ment about that in a while. This l 22 is where the Diablo Canyon mess comes in, but another one 23 l which says the operation's QA is not established on the i
1 24 basis of what they put in the FSAR 17.2 so far is not I
25 sufficient that anybody can judge whether it's adequate or ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
' 395 <
9r5 1 not. It's just a cartoon of what the procedures are.
2 In other words, I can say I will accomplish an 3 antigravity machine, but that's a hell of a lot different O 4 chen tae dee1 8n of it thee works.
g 5 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. I think we can move on.
'O j 6 MR. EDDLEMAN: On to what extent? 41 would R
$- 7 then be within _ construction -- and let me just make this s
j 8 Diablo comment here because I raised it a couple times ,
d C 9 especially about sui spondee 1 review. The thing that E,
y 10 disturbs me about Diablo --
E.
j 11 JUDGE KELLEY: Does this relate to the contentions?
g g 12 MR. ' EDDLEMAN : It relates to 41.
Q 13 JUDGE KELLEY: Go ahead.
! 14 MR. EDDLEMAN: So it would be better if I knock 15 it out. I can say when I got to the sui spondee one that j 16 is what I was talking about. Don'.t have to say it again.
us 6 17 One problem at least at Harris -- I am saying E
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18 that a thorough and accurate analysis is necessary. I 19 got the Diablo board decision where the board okayed the h
n 20 low power license and the board in that decision says 21 basically yes, the issue of the-seismic design was raised.
O The staff has completed its review. We say it's okay.
23 , That's the end of it. That was the import to 24 me of what it said in there, and I can give you the citation 25 l in writing later if you want them, but then after that i
f i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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l 9r6 1. happened as was shown in this meeting that we had with the f'/
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b 2 NRC's environmental people on the 7th of April. It was 3 revealed and subsequently sent a pile of documents to the
(.) 4 library here, the LPDR, showing in gross detail they found e 5 over a hundred errors in the seismic design after the n
6fboardhadapprovedit.
R
$ 7 What I'm saying is that, you know, the NRC process E i g 8 in my mind -- we intervenors are only minor helpers in this, a
@ 9 Now, we are supposed to kind of look over people's shoulders
$ 10 and scream if they think something is wrong and see if you 5
j 11 think it's worth reviewing, and that may help the process s
- j 12 some, and the fact that we are looking at it may help the 5
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5 14 them if they do a sloppy job on something, but in this case b
15
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. 16 ' wrong with the NRC. Rather, I am afraid it is typical of e
N 17 j the NRC.
E M 18 It got by the staff. It got by the applicant F
h 19 and the applicant's consultant and by the board. A hundred n
20 odd errors, serious errors it looks like to me. Seismic 21 design of a plant that is close to an earthquake fault,and I
22 1 a junior engineer found the first one and they started
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23 checking back through it and they found more.
c's 24 l' It looks like if they had done an adequate job
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25 , of checking in the first place they would have found that, 9
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I fr7 1l and they should have done it. I think the board i
O 2 iperticu1er17 in tight of the seriousness of the fault oue 3 there should have dug into this in more detail and O 4 f demanded more thorough review, and what I'm saying in 41 g 5 is CP & L has got problems. They had them for years, and R
'$ 6' that is really the basis of this.
R 8 7 I think you need a more thorough going inquiry M
j 8 into this QA and QC in Harris than some ordinary utility d
d 9 that had a good record, and.that's all I have to say.
$ 10 I believe that we are now at Number 78.
5 l
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11 JUDGE CARPENTER: I would like to ask how long y 12 you expect to spend on that.
E Q 13 MR. EDDLEMAN: Would you like me to go to 84
$ 14 first?
E 2 15 JUDGE CARPENTER: That's up to you.
5 g 16 MR. EDDLEMAN: I will be glad to do it if it's vi 8 17 more convenient for you.
5 M 18 JUDGE CARPENTER: I don't want to suddenly be E
$ 19 in the middle of that one, n
20 MR. EDDLEMAN: Now again, with this one I have 21 a proposed rephrasing, and it incorporates some data that 22 became available to me after the 14th of May. This is 23 , Number 84, the original Eddleman filing, and that's on 24 Page 190 -- at the bottom of 190 is where it starts and 25 { it references -- it says ES. That should be ER Table 3.6.2-1 N ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
- 300
- 9 9r8 1 Where I say "or corrections to it" I mean corrections and O 2 updates.
3 The proposed substitute --
() 4 JUDGE KELLEY: Now, is that something we got y 5 today?
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j 6 MR. EDDLEMAN: Yes. Headed -- it's headed R
$ 7 Proposed Contention on Chemical Pollutants / Carcinogens --
3 8 8 JUDGE KELLEY: In view of the fact that I don't d
9 think any of us up here, probably not the other parties, o
g 10 have read the substitute, let alone focussed on it, this s
Il is the kind of material that ycu have to focus on. I 5
a p 12 wonder whether it wouldn't be better, all things better
() 55 m 13 that you can submit it and we will have whatever the m
14 applicant wants to file by way of objection or whatever.
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{= 15 MR. EDDLEMAN: Okay.
j 16 JUDGE KELLEY: And then the board will do what w
I7 it has to, but to attempt to explicate is not something h =
{R 18 fruitful.
b I9 MR. EDDLEMAN: I uill go along with that. I 8
n 20 really -- I couldn't understand why the applicant couldn't 21 understand what I was saying, and now that I see the typing
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22 and the printing, I think that was a lot of the source of 23 l this difficulty, but I -- but they said Mr. Eddleman 24 didn't say what chemicals. Where it says Page 191, Line 1,
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j 399 9r9 1 others, I mean those are just examples of thing that you
() 2 can get when you react to all that stuff; and I imagine 3 Judge-Carpenter-knows better than I do if there are errors
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(_) 4 in there.
- 5 Those are the things that you can form from E
j 6 ammonium chlorine. Then you have other pollutants R
$ 7 pouring down the Cape Fear River, and to the extent this E
g 8 gets into the Cape Fear it will be biologically e
9 concentrated or it has the potential to be in the fish and 9
$ 10 even in the seafood off the coast, and that is the basis 11 of this thing.
B y 12 Now, the main addition -- and I'm doing this for 5
13
(]) fm your reference of what it says -- not arguing it -- in 5 14 this proposed contention, the proposed replacement, is to 15 refer specifically to data that I got from the Corps of j 16 Engineers in the State of North Carolina as to what was i d l N 17 , being monitored around there.
I N
! E 18 I also found that the LPDR on the -- I think i 5
[n 19 it's the 8th or the 9th of July for the first time -- a 20 document which I had asked to be delivered because it was i
21 missing and it's there now in the library and the 22 l librarian doesn't have any idea when it came in, and it's
{ 23 the report from '78 and '79, the monitoring report, I
/~ 24 believe forwarded by CP & L to the NEC on February the U) i 25 l 8th, '82; and in there you can look at what data they O
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- 9r10 i monitored the-water for, the elements and so on, and most O
t s/ 2 of'them are heavy metals and the -- you know -- the gross 3 { pollutants , chemical oxygen demands, suspended particulates () 4 and coliform bacteria and so on. Kind of standard stuff. g 5 I'm saying they haven't tested to know exactly G.
@ 6- what organics are in here, but the Hull River Assembly R $ 7 did a' study of that which feeds into the Cape Fear and
- g. .
j 8- established that all kinds of industries were discharging d o; 9 chemicals into it and that was dyes and other things like y 10 that. They react with chlorine. When they do that, 11 they can form carcinogenic chemicals which can be a y 12 concentrated in the food chain; and this would apply to 5 13 ({) f z the lake to the extent that the carcinogenics are formed 5 14 in the lake. 0 15 From what CP & L is putting in, I think that j 16 pretty well explains the basis of what I am talking about, 7 U' 17 1 and I will just leave it at that. E { 18 . JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. Comments from the P E 19 applicant? E 20 MR. BAXTER: No. 21 JUDGE KELLEY: Staff? l {} 22 MR. BARTH: None, Your Honor. 23 4 JUDGE KELLEY: Go ahead. 1 24 MR. EDDLEMAN: Number 78 is on Page 186. 25 l MR. BARTH: We covered that, Your Honor, at i l' I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. l
, 461 9rll 1 3:59 p.m. today.
I) 2 JUDGE KELLEY: Excuse me. -Let me mention that 3 Judge Carpenter has to. leave.and catch'a plane, but we I () 4l still have a quorum and we will proceed for a while this g- 5 afternoon, and I think we may now be.able to finish up, d-
@ 6 so sort of looks that way. That's what we are going to 3 $ 7 try to do.
M y 8 MR. EDDLEMAN: Well, let me -- d . d 9 JUDGE KELLEY: Excuse me. The last voice
$ 10 was from where? $ 11 MR. BARTH: From the. wilderness here. We a
y 12 covered 78 at 3:59 p.m. 5 - 13 Pardon me. Have we? I don't (]) MR. EDDLEMAN: m 5 14 think that's correct. U
- {= 15 MR. READ: I believe Mr. Eddleman started j 16 on 78 and for Mr. Carpenter's benefit went from there to W
17 l 84 without any substantive discussion of 78. 18 JUDGE KELLEY: That is consistent with my 7 h i .P I {5 19 recollection. 20 (Judge l Carpenter left the hearing room) 21 MR. EDDLEFMN: All I will say is that except 22 for the reference to PVC cable I understand there is no ! 23 , PVC control ccble. That is in the middle of the page. 24 I will get this retyped if you want a better copy, s i 25 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. Stand on the submission?
! ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. . _ . . _ _ , . . _ _ . . _ _ - - - ..m.. . . _ , - . . . . _ . . . . . _ . , _ . . _ - _ , . _ _ . _ _ . - _ . _ . . _ _ . _ . _ . _ , . . . _ _ . _ . ~ . . , , . . ~ . . ,~ -
i 402
$rl2 1l MR. EDDLEMAN: Yes. There is one thing I O 2 wanted to clarify, Judge. It's my understanding -- see, 3 I don't want to make the board come back tomorrow if it's O 4 not necessary. 1n fact, I don't want to go eny tonger e 5 this afternoon if it's not necessary, but if I have to N @ 6ll state the bases or what the meaning of all my contentions R $ 7 is more clearly, I think I can do a better job of it in n
j 8 writing now that I have learned more about what a d
- ! 9 contention is in twenty-five words or less. I got off
$ 10 because I thought you needed more to back it up. If you 3 =
q 11 can say it in twenty-five words or less and state the E: p 12 basis shortly, I think I can get it better in writing E Q 13 than I can do here talking, but if I don't get the z i 5 14 opportunity to do that, then I would have to do I think -- 15 unless you won't permit it -- is to drag the rest of my + gj 16 Harris file over here, which is about twice as big as I us 17 have here now, and go through all of them.
=
{ 18 (Pause) P
$ 19 JUDGE KELLEY: Let me make sure I understand you.
5 20 Maybe you could restate that. , 21 MR. EDDLEMAN: Well, what I'm saying is that if i the board would permit me to respond in writing to the 0 1 23 applicant's and staff's criticism of my contention with 24 basically a short statement -- I won't. promise to be 25! twenty-five words -- certainly half a page or less about ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
r 403 3r13 1! what the contention is -- what does it mean, and perhaps ' I 2' a statement of what is the basis, and it wouldn't be that 3 in every contention. If they say we think it means so O 4 end so end he doesn e set the basis -- and 1 em timitins e 5 this to t.he ones where they are objecting to basis and 8
@ 6 specificity because the other things are legal arguments.
N
$ 7 JUDGE KELLEY: All right.
M j 8 MR. EDDLEMAN: Then -- 0 0; 9 JUDGE KELLEY: Let me be clear. You are talking z O G 10 about a response to an objection about basis and specificity? That is one thing. lII j 12 MR. EDDLEMAN: Right. 5 {} V: 13 I
, JUDGE KELLEY: An amendment to a contention is E I4 something a little bit different.
15 Um-hum. MR. EDDLEMAN: g 16 JUDGE KELLEY: As I said before, the contentions us 17 i with all their virtues and faults are now before us. h { 18 MR EDDLEMAN: Right, i: I9 JUDGE KELLEY: And the papers have been written h n 20 with reference to them, and I think it's time to focus on 21 the contentions that we have got and decide on them one way 1 22 or the other as a basic approach; and if you are 23 i contemplating -- well, I think that is enough said. You 24 understand what I'm saying? 25 l MR. EDDLEMAN: Okay. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
l 404 19r14 1 JUDGE KELLEY: And then I think maybe we would () 2 ask the parties how they feel about getting some further 3 submission on the contentions that we haven't talked about. N
//
( 4 MR. EDDLEMAN: Ask them if they feel it would e ~5 be helpful. What I want to do, would it be helpful to d j 6, the parties and the board for me to restate some of these R
$ 7 in twenty-five or fifty or a hundred words as to what I was s
j 8 getting at? Particularly the ones they said they weren't
*J d 9 sure what I was getting at and to state the basis of them; $ 10 and if you say I can't put in anything but what was in there M $ 11 before, I think I should be able to loop the reference or s
y 12 give more detail as to what I cited so they can find it. 5 { m 13 MR..BARTH: For the staff, Your Honor -- 5 14 JUDGE KELLEY: Let me get n comment from the 15 parties on the proposal. Mr. Barth, you were saying -- g' 16 MR. BARTH: It would not be helpful from our w 17 We have matters here, and we should {= point of view. { 18 adjudicate them. F E 19 JUDGE KELLEY: What about the general proposition, 5 20 Mr. Barth. It's true, is it not, that petitioners for 21 intervention put forward contentions and they don't write () 22 briefs about them. Just put them forward and they then 23 are responded to by the applicant -- typically by the l 24 applicant and the staff. Sometimes at some length and in 25 ] some detail and there isn't any formal provision for a il i i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
s 405 9rl5 I written filing of a reply by the petitioner, and we indicated O 2 in our earlier order -- order of June 4th I believe it was 3 that we had a couple of requests for permission to file D 4 d replies, and we said in effect, well, let's wait and have 5 the prehearing and you will have a chance to reply to some g e3 3 6 of the points at least. Perhaps the bulk of them. We e7 5 7 will wait and see if you want any further chance to reply j 8 in writing to the applicant and the staff in the light of d
; 9 what happens there.
10 Now, this afternoon we have heard from II Mr. Eddleman on some of his contentions but not all, and 5 is l 12 he is proposing to file something in addition with respect
] , 13 to some of the contentions that he hasn't spoken to, and l$ 14 that's what you're being asked to comment on.
j::: 15 (Pause) ! 16 2[ MR. BARTH: Ordinarily, Your Honor, I would us (:: 17 say that this is a viable alternative to permitting the { 18 conanent on the staff's and' the applicant's filings, but i: I9 h n the track record of this proceeding shows that every five 20 minutes Mr. Eddleman has come in with new material which 21 no one has seen, and we just simply cannot handle that. O t' "a '"ke the """"=Pri " th"' "e d ver 23 all of his contentions, the staff will make no objection 24 to a filing by Mr. Eddleman promptly -- however that may 25 l be determined -- in which he will make an effort to point i
! ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
406 9r16 1 to an error in the applicant's analysis of his contentions () 2 or the staff's analysis of his contentions insofar as 3 they meet the standards of 10 CFR 2.714; but I in advance (]) 4 make a motion for the board to strike all material which e 5 is new and not relevant to those two considerations. N
@ 6 JUDGE KELLEY: So you are saying that you would R $ 7 not object to permission to Mr. Eddleman to file a reply s
j 8 paper that spoke to arguments by the staff or the 0 9 argument that the contention was lacking in basis or
$ 10 specificity? Is that right? ;* 11 MR. BARTH: Correct, Your Honor.
n k j 12 JUDGE KELLEY: What do you think of that, E p j= u-13 Mr. Baxter?
$ 14 MR. BAXTER: I think to the extent Mr. Eddleman M
15 hasn't addressed particular contentions here at the j 16 conference, I have no objection to him addressing our v. 17 i (= arguments -- that is , if we say he didn't have a { 18 reference and therefore that is not basis and he says, oh, P [n 19 yeah, I did. You missed it. That's all right. Going 20 out and digging it up and giving it to us at this point 21 is what is supposed to have happened by May 14th or under g3 22 any interpretation of the regulations by June 28th, and (/ 23 it wasn't supposed to happen at the prehearing conference i 24 either for that matter in terms of Mr. Eddleman's either/or -- lO 25 ; i with a paper afterwards or doing it here. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
407 9rl7 1! There have been cases where on a very few issues I () 2! the licensing board has found merit -- they have given an 1 3 intervenor or a petitioner to reformulate in one or two () 4 areas, but I do not see in this particular case the e 5 likelihood of success based on our success with several A n j 6, amendments already, and I think that is something that the R
$ 7 board would only come to on its own well into the process s
j 8 of ruling on the contentions if it really thought it was d d 9 almost there in one given area, but the wording was
$ 10 inartful.
E
$ 11 I mean not a wholesale invitation to redo them.
a j 12 We would be starting from scratch. 5 ~ 13 (]) fm MR. BARTH: I did not understand any invitation 5 14 by the board for any reformulation of any contentions 15 whatsoever. We object to any reformulation of any j 16 contentions totally. Absolutely obj ect. w g 17 This is no time to start there nor did I e M 18 interpret your remark or invitation to address that. -I P 19 would not address it had it not been brought up, h n 20 JUDGE KELLEY: I think what you said was 21 consistent with what -- the discussion we had with what 22 (]) Mr. Baxter has said. Let me go back to Mr. Eddleman and 23 l see if we don't have some kind of an agreement on this. 24kMaybewedon't, but let me try. (-)) s I 25 ' The proposition that I understand to be evolving i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
< 406
,9r18 1 from this discussion is that we might wrap up your
() 2 discussion of contentions very shortly here and not reach 3 a goodly number of your contentions and then the understanding () 4 would be that you would not file anything else on contentions I e 5 that we have discussed this afternoor, or on contentions
! 9 @ 6 that are referred to as incorporated into the joint l
R
$ 7 contentions, but that with respect to the remaining l 8 contentions you may wish to file a brief statement answering \ 4 c 9 argument of the applicant and the staff against the $ 10 admissibility of your contentions? Special reference was $ 11 made to arguments claiming a lack of specificity or basis, a
y 12 MR. EDDLEMAN: That's correct. I wasn't trying j 5 13 to get any more than what Mr. Baxter said. I don't ({} f
; $ 14 really understand what Mr. Barth is saying some of the 2 15 time. I don't know. I should tell you what he is s
saying about never having seen some of the stuff before. g
. 16 w
d 17 l I don't believe that is true. 5 5 18 JUDGE KELLEY: Well, I think a key point here -- 5 j e. 19 of course, you knoc the board can just rule on this -- 20 this kind of thing, and it may not please anybody, but one 21 point that ought to be at least clear here I think is 22 whether you are going to be in a mode of reformulating (]) 23 - contentions or whether you are in effect giving explanato'ry 24 commentary on contentions already before us by way of _{]{ r 25 I countering an argument that it lacks specificity or basis. I I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
409 l l i 9r19 1 I think Mr. Baxter as I he.ar him is objecting, O 2 and I know Mr. Barth is objecting to reformulating V l 3 contentions , but a submission that says my Contention 34 O- 4 is okey because 1 eaid this end this end the other, and g 5 that is specific enough, is in the nature of argument; O j 6 but it is something that the board might agree with. R
$ 7 They might not otherwise see it in that light. Who knows?
A 8 8 Now, is that kind of a rather limited reply d ci 9 satisfnetory to you?
$ 10 MR. EDDLEMAN: Yes, Judge. What I wanted to 5 11 get at was where I understand the purpose of this order --
is j 12 and in this prehearing conference you said well, name 5 - twenty of them. That is all we will get to and maybe C) f13
$ 14 another twenty. I think that is why I named another 15 twenty to start off with, but I don't name the ones on 16 which there was basis and specificity, so I will have 3l s.
17 some of those left that I wasn't prepared to discuss, h c: { 18 If it's easier to do it this way, that is what E 19 I want to do. Okay? They say there is not sufficient g n 20 specificity in this. There is too. If there is and 21 here is what it is -- and I will try to be as brief as 22 Q possible in that. 23 i JUDGE KELLEY: Well, let me be real clear on 24 one point. I will say it once more. I am prepared to 25 ; sit here tomorrow and go over every single one, and so is i I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
410 9r20 1 my colleague. I sensed -- what I don't think is critical. O 2 1 don.e think it's essential. we could wrap up today and 3 still render due process to all concerned. O 4 Second1y, 1 thought thet it was your preference e 5 on balance not to spill over and take half of tomorrow on t.
$ 6 that discussion.
9 8 7 MR. EDDLEMAN: It is. It is. And I think
?! @ 8 we got it worked out. I am agreeing with what you are a
c; 9 proposing; and if the applicants and staff say okay, then
*/.
h 10 I think we are done with that, and I will run through the 11 rest of my list here, and we will be done. E: (c 12 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. Now, run through -- in Q 13 running through the rest of the list, what exactly do you m 5
. 14 contemplate?
15 MR EDDLEMAN: Saying what I am going to do with j 16 each contention. I start with Number 78.
^
d 17 MR. BAXTER: Of the top twenty? E
$ 18 JUDGE KELLEY: On that, that is easy. That 5
19 I understand, h c: 20 MR. EDDLEMAN: Yeah. 21 JUDGE KELLEY: Fine. Go ahead. 22 MR. EDDLEMAN: So do I understand that I am 23 f getting the opportunity to do what you say? 24 JUDGE KELLEY: Sure. l 25 ! MR. EDDLEMAN: Okay, t
! ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
411 r' 9r21 1 , JUDGE KELLEY: Yes. Well, let me be clear on (~) (_/ 2* that. We have had this discussion and Mr. Eddleman will 3 be entitled to submit -- and we will be setting a time for (~)3 ( 4 submission that I think will apply to all of them -- son.e s 5 additional reply argument, if you will, on contentions we 9 j 6 didn't discuss this afternoon at the hearing. This will R 8 7 not be by way of rewriting contentions but rather by way M j 8 i of arguing the adequacy of the contentions that have already a d 9 been submitted.
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1Ocl $ 412 1 i MR. EDDLEMAN: Correct. ,
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b} 2, 11 JUDGE KELLEY: Fine. Is that an accurate statement 3 of our discussion? O 4 MR. 8AxTER: Yes, Mr. Cheirmen. g 5 MR. BARTH: I think it is, Your Honor. To tie 8 y 6 up everything, I think you also implied that the staff and R
?2 7 the applicant would have no further reply whateoever. This s @ 8 is absolutely agreeable uith us. There will be no reply to a
ci 9 Mr. Eddleman's filing by us. g 10 JUDGE KELLEY: That's agreeable with the board? id { l1 MR. BAxTER: I'm not waiving that if I need the is y 12 opportunity. 5 O i 13 an anara= vou oennoe have a renvoir forever-
$ 14 R-e-M-v-o-i-r.
E 15 MR. EDDLEMAN: {:: All I'm saying is that if Mr. Baxter y 16 feels he needs to make a reply I don't object to it.
- J.
l (( 17 i JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. I don't think it will be a M 18 practical problem. So with that then why don't we finish
# 19 g , the list of -- finish the twenty as to where you are on those n
20 and we will look to your reply -- such replies as you want 21 to make consistent with our understanding; that is to say, you 7 22 a'ren't required to file replies,.but you may within the (V , 23l limits of our earlier statement of the understanding. 24 Mr. EDDLEMAN: Can I get just the page of the l 25 , transcript that says what I can do, because I'd like to have f
; ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
10c2 413 1 it very clear. My memory I think is good, but I'm not sure () 2 it's good enough that -- 3 JUDGE KELLEY: I believe that -- let me ask the () 4 staff. Won't we in a natter of a few days have a copy of
- e. 5 the transcript of the PDP.?
E n M e. 6l MR. EDDLEMAN: PDR, Yes, sir. They told us at Apex 7 theyI d have something down here next week, and itdarrived 8 about six or seven weeks later, and I was looking for it all 0 g 9 the time. I called the PDR branch in D.C. to expedite it.
-i h 10 JUDGE KELLEY: Well, it's fair enough that you 3
5 11 should have a hand on this piece of paper. I'll make a d 12 note to see that you get it. 3
=
I'l d 13 MR. EDDLEMAN: Thank you.
%J p $ 14 Well, I had already finished 78 and I'll let it stand W
b E is on its merits. 5
- _. 16 JUDGE BRIGHT: Pardon me just a moment. You say you i
d 17 j finished 78? M 18 MR. EDDLEMAN: Well, I said I was going to let it l 19 ! stand on what it said. M 20 JUDGE BRIGHT: Stand on what it said? l 21 MR. EDDLEMAN: Right. r3 22 JUDGE BRIGHT: Would you do me just one little favor? V 23 MR. EDDLEMAN: Certainly. 24 JUDGE BRIGHT: Would you connect up the first part
)
25 land the last part and tell me where that middle has anything I I l
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1
414 I to do with what I think of as this contention? This relates () 2 to off-site power loss; is that correct? 3 MR. EDDLEMAN:<- Virtually complete loss of controlled () 4 power. I believe some of these were off-site. Some of n 5 them might have been in-plant. In other words, if you M. j 6 cause a common mode failure of a certain kind you cause all R
$ 7 the control power to go, but now that's about as clear as a
j 8 I can make it.. You said to relate what you think the d d 9 contention is and I'm not sure what you think the contention
$ 10 is, but if you just tell me what the middle is maybe I chn j 11 try to go from there.
M j 12 JUDGE BRIGHT: Well, the way it reads to me is E () 13 that you're going to lose off-site power, bang. Now, this m 14 is certainly -- it happened at _ Crystal River more than once 5 15 as I understand it for periods up to fifteen minutes. Okay. j 16 Now, that's what we have the diesel generators for. W d 17 ! MR. EDDLEMAN: Right. s M 18 JUDGE BRIGHT: But now then you -- let's see. Well, c
$ 19 I can kind of see how you might use that, but then a n
20 vulnerability in accident situaticns, you didn't say anything 21 about an accident situation up here. The short circuits 1 l (')
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22 due to a use of this particular equipment, cable and wiring 23 not qualified under accident -- MR. EDDLEMAN: Okay. I think I can try to l (]) 24 l 25 connect it up. d ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
s 415 1 JUDGE BRIGHT: I thought it was just a simple I
- 2l loss of off-site power.
l 3 i !!R. EDDLEMAN: I think I see what you're getting 4 at now, Judge. The start and the end -- the end where it's
.a 5! task A44, section blackout of NUREG 606. Those relate N 6l to the loss of off-site power. And in the middle I'm b 0 $ 7 trying to talk about some consequences. I recall f8 U
contingents that were tossed out. I say you can't have this. d 9 You just say I lose off-site power; so what? The diesel's
$ 10 come off, for example. Okay. . But what if they don't or y
j 11 , what if something else boes wrong? Then you've got a problem is j 12 'to deal with. E
- O j' 13 What I'm saying is that given that a lot of this
$ 14 equipment is made to older standards that were before this 2 15 was considered a serious possibility, and given that the 5
g' 16 known PVC cable -- I omitted out the PVC because they don't us d 17 : use it -- could be degraded and that -- there is more N M 18 lexplanation of that in some of the others. 5 [n 19 I notice I've gotten blanks up there at the top, 20 but I believe the contention that should be in the blanks, 21 and it says the above, 77 -- 77;I guess is the main one. 4 l C 22 There may be some others further above that, and if you -- 23 77 would be the main one above that should go in there. 24 I think it is implied in what I already said on paper here. J 25 ll Then, let's see. I say in this little thing that d l! ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
i 416 l
- 1 goes out to the side, because I think I realized the same V
2 [ Problem that you did or I tried to -- it says before this 3 loss of power problem was considered critical or frequent 4 enough, design features to present -- prevent it beyond a 5 the two redundant power supply divisions diesel generator A
$ 6 4and on-site DC.
E f 8 7 Now, that's what it says. Am I clearing it up2 s y 8 JUDGE BRIGHT: Well, I just want to be sure that d ei 9 I know what we're trying to litigate here. Y
$ 10 MR. EDDLEMAN: Well, I am saying that --
g 11 JUDGE BRIGHT: Well, are you saying that this plant is g 12 will go completely ape if you have a 15-minute loss of O i i3 off-eite vower 2 h 14 MR. EDDLEMAN: Something else has gone wrong at 2 15 the same time and some of these degradations can contribute 5 j 16 to an accident under those conditions, yes, that's what I'm us d 17 i saying, that that possibility is there and I don't think E M 18 their analysis of it is good enough. I I
$ 19 JUDGE BRIGHT: Okay. The various components, n
20 you're saying then, for example, that switchover from off-site 21 power to diesel generator pouer is going to kick off all O 22 ithese re1ays and cause circu1e breakers to cut off gower 23 to the involved control and --
] 24 MR. EDDLEMAN: It could.
JUDGE BRIGHT: 25 ]il
-- it goes cascading down the line.
E
;I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
I 417 l l 1 I This is the part that bothers me. 2 MR. EDDLEMAN: Right. If the stuff is degraded 3 I I'm saying that relay could be out of -- or actually, 4 whatever feeds power to the relay could give it too much 5 power or too little. It could short out and, wham, you a O i
@ 6l don't have your switchover.
E
$ 7l Now, a lot of these common power supplies, as I n
j 8 think I noted in my 628 amendments about something else, O d 9 the redundancy between, say, unit one and unit four and i h 10 unit two and unit three, but units four and three aren't i j 11 there anymore so they're obviously going to have to do some i:: y 12 kind of redesign or else build those new four and three buses in the=e enyway, end I don't know if they're going to de O ) 'i3
$ 14 that or not, and I don't know if they've addressed it in 1
2 15 their amendments. They haven' t in anything I've seen so E j 16 far said, well, here's hoa we're. going to take care of it us
!"[ 17 i and keep that redundancy. Though I think to try to answer iS l !5 18 your question a little more, I'm s'aying to lose off-site l c ' $ 19 power and this degraded equipment and connections and n
20 circuitry are in there, I'm talking about electrical 21 equipment, then the possibility exists that it will take out 1 0 22 the contro1 power. It w111 moe worh might. It w111 eieher 23 send spurious signals or not send the right signals to switch 24 it over to get those redundant power supplies in there or the 25 , diesel generator will fail. That's the point of it, that I j' t ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. l
, 418 i' ; l if the off-site power goes away and it's degraded equipment r
l' I (_)/ 2' and wiring, electrical equipment, can't handle that, can' t 3 maintain the supply af power that's needed to maintain () 4 the safety functions, that's what I'm getting at. I don't c 5 think they've addressed that in sufficient detail. I don't P. 8 m 6! think their design and construction is adequate to it. 7 JUDGE BRIGHT: Okay. Thank you, sir. E 8 8 MR. EDDLEMAN: Now, number 87 psychological stress, a i d ! c 9 I think that we have --
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h JUDGE KELLEY: Do we have any comment from the 10 l s ' E 11 other parties on that? c 12 MR. BARTH: Not from the staff, Your Honor. 3
=
JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. Go ahead, Mr. Eddleman. () 13
$ 14 MR. EDDLEMAN: Number 87, psychological stress.
da
! 15 I think that's really clear. That's got to wait. Now, E
j 16 I'm sjust going to let the board rule on it. M d 17 ! JUDGE KELLEY: All right. 5 i 5 181 MR. EDDLEMAN: Number 105, exclusion area size.
=
H {M 19 Now, one of the things it says in the parts of 10 CFR 50 about 20 . operating license is that you've got to address changes that 21 have happened since the CP stage and one of thoce things was
)
[]} 22 ]Three Mile Island. 23 , What I'm maintaining in number 105 -- and I haven't 24 jeven lg looked at it. I'm trying to do it from memory, but -- (/T \_. 25)now, I'm not trying to. I just started into page 210. What a ll ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
n 419 1 I'm maintaining on 105 is that in light of that accident 2 exceeding the design basis I think that -- you and the 3 applicants and the staff have argued back that actually 4 the release wasn't an overdesign basis of release, at least. e 5 that they measured, or whoever measured it that they P.
$ 6 relied on. I think probably that the applicant or the staff R
8 7 generally didn't respond to the evidence of it. I'm saying
~
[ 8 they did it wrong. They need to reestablish that exclusion a d 9 area and I make an argument in here and I cite NEC cases,
'i
- C g 10 and basically I drew this out of other documents and tried
*g 11 to put it together the best I could, and any lawyering s
y 12 deficiencies are my non-lawyerly self. And, you know, I'm E () 13 saying I think the argument's good and let the board rule, h 14 JUDGE KELLEY: Let me ask you whether or not in E E 15 this contention you think -- is there an element of 5 y 16 emergency planning here? I mean in the sense that before i d 17 you hand the current emergency planning bill, which is very E
$ 18 new, these part 100 siting criteria, I think, serve some P
[R 19 purpose from a. emergency planning standpoint as well as l 20 just allowable.1 releases. 21 MR. EDDLEMAN: As I understand 111 -- let me () 22 borrow Mr. Runkle's copy. I think it's probably the same as 23 ' the..on.e: i X-ronad and uced. Okay. It seems to say when 24 you put the plant downi nt<a certain--you've got to size your (]} i 25 l exclusion area and your low population zone such that certain l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
t" 420 I doses won' t be exceeded. . () 2 I What I'm saying is there's evidence coming out of 3 Three Mile Island, and I hope that in this basis I referenced -- lIP 4 JUDGE KELLEY: Are those doses under accident a 5 conditions or doses under normal operation 2 E
@ 6 MR. EDDLEMAN: Under accident conditions, Judge.
R
$ 7 And worse than that, if you look at page 211 at the top --
j 8 in other vords, the bottom of 210 and top of 211, I just i 0 9 9 copied the citation out because I think it said what I wanted ] i E g 10 it to say. I don' t know if that's how lawyers do it or E 11 not.
@ The board ruled and I guess that might have been a
i N I2 the ALAB, but it said the ASLB. They have distinguished E , (]) 13 between the design basis accidertts and ~ the 'even more severe m 5 14 hypothetical accident required to be postulated 10 CFR 100 -- 15 there's a typo there -- for the purpose of evaluating site j 16 suitability. a And what I'm saying is that it's under accident h_ I7 k E 18 conditions you've got to look at that^_ zone under a basis of E 19 i g n a worse ' accident then what's really considered credible. 20 And an accident at least as bad as Three Mile Island now ought 21 to be considered credible now because it happened. I've p 22-l (]) seen things that have very little possibilities, but they 23 ; happen, and that's my rationale for it. 24 l (]) And then I cite table 13.2 of the 1977 SENPP safety 25 ' and evaluation report and it says that they use design basis
- i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
i
t 421 1 accident to do it. It's footnote one to that table confirms ( 2 this as the DBA doses therein are less than those in lo CFR 3 l100.11. So that's my argument en it. () 4 And the other thing I think about it is this, e 5 TID 14844 which I believe is from 1963, and is the basis of n 4 3 6 this, is outdated, but, you know, I made the argument in here. R
$ 7 I'm talking about accident conditions and I think they ought E
l 8 to before they operate the thing because obviously it's d d 9 not dangerous in this way unless it's operated, so I think i o
@ 10 it's part of the operating license. They ought to be E
{a 11 required to set that zone and I also think, and, you know, p 12 and argue that it's not relevant, but the expanding population 5 ( ) fc 13 , in the area -- I think I raised the question about zoning. I
$ 14 I did, down at the bottom of the page, 211 -- zoning and 2 15 so on to make sure that you didn't get concentrations of s
j 16 people in the area that would be at more risk based on a e g 17 l more realistic evaluation of what that iodine release could E M 18 be under credible conditions and making it conservative at 5 19 {e 111, I think, requires by making it a bigger relief than that 20 at the basis of setting this LPZ and EPZ. I 21 l JUDGE KELLEY: I'm raising a question and let () 22 me assure you I don' t knew the answer. I'm groping myself. 23l ; Dut if in fact the icw population zone for the reactor 24 i was set on one basis several years ago and one reason for {_') 25 , doing that was to establish emergency planning procedures of l 1 l
! ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
422 1 I.one kind or another,. arguably, it's new energency planning n V l 2 l rules simply superseded that -- in other words, you can i J 3 ' put in place an emergency planning rule that will comply 4 with 50.47, that's that. I don' t know. I'n just raising g 5 the question. I don't know the answer. y
@ 6 MR. EDDLEMAN: I think I see what your point is, R $ 7 Judge, but I don't think it's my point here. My point s
[ 8 here is if you've got to have those things for the plan or ts C 9 not and the fact that you have them now when you don't have z, C h 10 a plan I think proves that. z E I y 11 JUDGE KELLEY: My question is,.does the LPZ have Es p 12 any operational significance if you've got a plan under l = O l is 50.47 which is accepees1e2 I don't know. oo you know2 z 5 I4 MR. BAXTER: I don't think it governs evacuation I $ 15 capability determinations anymore. E[ I0 JUDGE KELLEY: What does it govern? us I7 l MR. BARTH: I suppose at the boundary, Your Honor. 18 MR. BAXTER: I believe it's used for design purposes, i: t-g I9 ~ That's my understanding, the dose rates you're going to set at n 20 certain areas. 2I JUDGE KELLEY: In accident situations? 22 O Ms. exx,Es, And we ha,e EsAR ana1yses show1m,now 23 that we meet those dose rates for accidents. 24 JUDGE KELLEY: I'm really kind of groping here, l 25 as I think I admitted. n ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. rs -r - -r w3.-- wy - -- -- -y.-.--m.--*-.-r,w . - - - ,,----r- -g,+-
423 l 1I MR. EDDLEMAN: I think the ones Mr. Baxter was (3 v' 2 f referring to are design basis, but what I'm saying here is 3 these may need to be set beyond design. basis and design O 4l basis probably needs to be higher in the light of Three e 5 Mile Island. The amount of radiciodines , for example, 9
$ 6 in setting these conditions. That's right in the rules.
R
$ 7 So here I think I'm doing what they want me to do as j 8 explicitly as I can. I'm saying here is the rule that's d @ 9 urong. Here's why it's wrong. Here's the credible v.
o [; 10 scenario for it. It's either good or it's not. I'll 11 let the board rule on it. Es N 12 MR. BAXTER: If that's what it is, it's a
= ~
0 l is che11enge. z 5 14 MR. EDDLEMAN: I'm saying you guys haven't 15 complied with the rule. That's what I'm saying. g 16 MR. KELLEY: I think -- let me see what's.the us
!i 17 s tep .
E { 18 Are you going to rest on your paper or do you P 19 have something further? g n 20 MR. BARTH: We have nothing further, Your Honor. 2I JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. 22 MR. EDDLEMAN: 112 is a steam ger.erator ths.t is
)
23 , superseded in the joint contentions. Number 115 anticipated 24 transient without Scram. Page 225. Now I think -- 25 HEW's has been argued about and argued about and sc on for
!i H ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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; 424 l
1 a long time, but I was establishing first off here some basis 2 that this could lead to an extremely serious accident and I 3 g cite a specific document 'for that, and that's the pump and O 4 the borne insece1on system is =oe ccnr.idered sefety e 5 related equipment at Harris, and I'm sure I got that out P.
$ 6I of the FSAR, but I have no site to it. And other failure GT M 7 modes that are possible, and I list off some that I think M
j 8 might be possible and that's to say that there's more d d 9 than one. M c G 10 JUDGE KELLEY: Let me ask you, Mr. Eddleman, whether j 11 you have any comment on this. The applicants at page 137 of s y 12 their response quote seme statements by the commission in E O i ia connection with the new e ru1e-mekine to the effece thee
$ 14 they think that things are safe enough pending the completion U
15 of a rule-making. That seems to imply that if that's so, y 16 or more importantly if the commission thinks that it's so, as ti 17 there is no need to litigate hapless-type events in individual s 5 18 cases. 5 {n 19 MR. EDDLEMMI: Well, you know, by the time they 20 get to the operating license stage in the hearing maybe it 21 may very well be that this rule-making has been completed,
] 22 and then I'll have to see whether I'm going to have to seek l 23 an exception to the rule'or whether I think their cnalysis 24 is adequate or whether I think the staff's analysis is 25 adequate and so en and so C:aybe the best thing is to defer i
I i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
, 425 1
l l j j it or kick it out en the basis of whether it's a challenge r' l (_-) 2 or an attack on the rule-making. I'll leave it to the p 3 l board. () 4 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. o 5 MR. EDDLEMAN: Number 132. I think this one on n n room should be deferred. CP&L stated that d
- 6l :
the control { 7 their control room design review isn' t complete yet. There n 8 8 seems to be a little of that number three. When I was down u e d 9 at the library the xerox nachine broke down and all that.
-i $ 10 I was getting some of that copied off and it seems 'they E
E 11 have some kind of display there, and I really haven' t had a d 12 time to review it, and it's. just been there for a few days. z R () 13 And, you know, I don' t think I've had adequate time to A 14 review it, but I think the best thing to do is just to defer this one until that is out and in my hands and I can f= 15 16 look at it.
]
s y 17 , JUDGE KELLEY: We talked about this yesterday, W M 18 didn't we, Mr. Baxter? 5
'y 19 MR..BAXTER: Yes, sir. There's a new wrinkle to n
20 this one, though. Mr. Eddleman amended this contention in 1 21 the June 28th filing on our respence we gave ycu yesterday --
/~T 22 You may not have had time to look at it -- We agreed to \> ,
I I 23 ! take a reformulated version of the contention, so at your s (} 24 leisure you might look at that and see whether you have 25 any problems with that. l l ) ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
r 426 If MR. EDDLEMAN: I'm sorry. Mr. Baxter, I appreciate () 2 your calling that to my attention. 3 I'd follow through with one thing else about the n (_) 4 June 28 th while I'm at it. e 5 JUDGE KELLEY: While we're on 132 then could we N
$ 6l have from the staff in the post hearing filing that we've R
8 7 referred to a statement whether they agree or disagree M j 8 with the applicant's stipulation to this contention number a d 9 1327
~i o @ 10 MR. BARTH: Yes, sir.
E h 11 JUDGE KELLEY: Could you take a look? B j 12 MR. BARTH: We will do so, Your Honor. JUDGE KELLEY: And then -- ({) 13 Fine.
$ 14 MR. EDDLEMAN: Mr. O'Neill has been thoroughly 5
2 15 confused by my attempts to clear up this typo that's 5
, g . 16 referenced in the June 28th amendments. It's the one where w
d 17 l I'm talking about -- I think it's the environmental impacts
$ i M 18 of fuel, nuclear fuel, and it -- Let's see where it is.
5
; 19 , I can't find it, butranyway. the relevant document n
20 that he doesn' t know what it is I've shown him already. It's 21 NUREG 0889 draft environmental impact statement alleging i
' the operation of Sand Rock Mill Project, which is a 22
(]) f 23 uranium mill. I think it represents the NRC's state of 3 {} 24 the art environmental analysis of these impacts, and that's 25 j why I put it in that contingent. And I'm sorry about the
- n l l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
l 427 1 l 1! typo. A I U 2 l 106 has gone away. It was subsumed or -- 3 JUDGE KELLEY: Let me see. I just want to be d 4 sure about here we are now. t g 5 I had a sheet of paper with what I think were the 0 3 6 top twenty. Is 106 in the second twenty? G 8 7 MR. RUNKLE: Yes. N E n 8 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. d d 9 Now, Mr. Eddleman, are you proposing to walk
- 2 o -
g 10 through the second twenty? 5 11 MR. EDDLEMAN: I don't have to. I could do it a y 12 under the statement. There are a couple of them that will 5 O i 13 probably go aw y. For example, number 70 the applicants I [ 14 think had made an objection to that. Basically this 2 15 refers to a kind of electrical:. penetration that they didn't
! E .'j 16 have and the need existed only in a few plants. They put
(( 17 proof of that in the record and I'm done with it. I withdraw 5 M 18 it. That's number 70.
=
s 3 19 JUDGE KELLEY: Number 70, you're withdrawing that? l A 20 l MR. EDDLEMAN: Yes. l 21 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. l I O 22 MR. EDDLEMAN: I might just call to your attention U 3 23 as I okip down through this -- nou, I'm not wanting to make this
, 24,l my written comment, but with respect to 116 there is stuff in l 25 , the 628 amendm' e nt about that. With respect to number six, the l i l t I '
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC. \
n l 428 l I fHoniker v. Hendry case, there wa.c a bench order in that case . O's 2 in the Circuit Court of Appeals recently that basically said b 3 they just wouldn't try the matter and it's, as I understand it,
,-] 4 So that's going on.
on appeal to the Supreme Court from that. 5 g Number 33 is intervenor funding. I just want the e.'
@ 6 I think the rule is clear, but I'm r board to rule on that.
e7
=
7 y ,saying, look, you know, I spent several thousand dollars on e. S 8 M this already and I'm spending a lot of my time and so on. I'd d 9
}" just like to put in my request for funding and 'say,'look, if e
F 10 3 it ever becomes possible for funding I want to get it back
=
II because I'm -- I think if I'm laying my money out -- you know, h d 12 I E CP & DL, for example, I don' t think would have built the 3 ('/
\-
s 5 plant if they couldn't rate base it, so I'm just getting my
$ 14 .
g request in. 5 15 g JUDGE KELLEY': I know at least in the recent past T 16 g there's been in the NRC either authorization or appropriation 17 ; d z < acts that have had explicit language barring financial
=
M 18
= assistance to intervenors. I'm not certain whether right u
19 j now that kind of language is in effect. If you want to check 20 it, there is some background behind that, though, that you 21 may also be aware of. The NRC had a rule-making back in I i (~) 22 l
\_/ l l think ' 75 '76 on the subject of funding intervenors and I
23 decided not to do it. That's more complicated than that. I () think the short answer will be no. l 250l! MR. EDDLEMAN: Yeah. I'm just saying -- 1 0
- i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
l 429 1 I JUDGE KELLEY: But we'll just have to look into it O 2
!a little further and --
3 IIR. EDDLEMAN: All I'm asking for is the short O 4 enswer. 5 g Number 73 about TMI action plan I think is best n 0 deferred because they haven't put in their full response to it. E 7 il I haven't had a full chance to review amendment three in s [ 8 particular. I did Xerox this thing out of it last night that d" 9
~. I think are just completely cartoons. Just as a first blush c
10 h they say position 2.AC 3, CP & L will comply. And I'm
=
II f damned if I know what that means. You know, I guess that means g 12 they're going to try to do what the NRC said and whatever that C O i '3 1s, but the old one said whatever the NRC said for them to do z f and then their response. And the new one it just said will 5 15 g comply, will comply, will comply, and so I'm going to have to
= ? 16 g take some time to look at that, but I think the best thing to d 17 w , do is defer 73. =
M 18
- With respect -- there's one of them, I'm referring s
19 j
, to FSAR 1.6, that table of W-Caps, I'm not sure this is 110, 20 but let me just make this response about it.
21 i p v 22 j 23 i 24 25
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430 llrl 1 JUDGE KELLEY: I think we better narrow it down. ( 2 We will get on the record with this , and I would like to 3 know where it fits. - O
's / 4 MR. EDDLEMAN: .Yes, sir. I'll try. Let g 5 me look at my index for a second.
O j 6 (Pause) G
$ 7 MR. EDDLEERN: The one with W caps. It's a Z
j 8 miscellaneous one, isn't it? d d 9 MR. BAXTER: I'm sure.
$ 10 MR. EDDLEMAN: Okay. I don't know. Number 9.
j 11 I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman. It just occurred to me that if s y 12 I was going to try to wrap it up that I should knock that 5 13 ()f m one out. Number 10 I will not comment on, but I will 5 14 try to find tl11s thing. 15 No, it's not Westinghouse controls. I am j 16 trying to do two things at once, and I better stop and a I7 do one. h b 18 It seems to me that it's probably miscellaneous 5 ' [ n 19 plant design. It's their response to me, IBRD, 20 applicant's response to Eddleman. 21 JUDGE KELLEY: Maybe it's something you could-22 just include in your filing. [} 23 , MR. EDDLEMAN: Sure. I will be glad to do r3 24 that. I don't want to waste your time. On 120 I have V 25 l read their analysis of that type equipment. It seemed to i i l l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
r 431 I i llr2 1. be that the FSAR was much more in the nature of a summary () 2' of the results and although it described the analytical 3 methods, that was it. () 4 103. I believe there is stuff in the update e 5 that they said about sample' counting. I don't think that N
@ 6 cures it. I mean in their updated filing. I don't G $ 7 tFi.nk that cures what I'm talking about. With respect 3
j 8 to the hydrogen release -- maybe I better put all this 0 9 ' stuff in what I write. g 10 JUDGE KELLEY: Well, there are just a few items.
$ II It wouldn't be very much to add. I think it's a good idea.
a p 12 MR. EDDLEMAN: Okay. Then I will leave it at E ' 13 ({} f that. In other words, the ones I have talked about here, b I4 I won't say any more about. The ones I haven't that are 15 basis that are specificity are brief. Here is what it y 16 really says. Not rephrasing it but saying here is what a 17 the basis is that I said. h x { 18 JUDGE KELLEY: By way of explanation for the P 19 submission. Right. I don't mean to be arbitrary, but g e 20 this could be kept to a page or less double spaced per 21 contention. 22 MR. EDDLEMAN: Yes, I think that is a perfectly O. 23 reasonable criterion; and if I exceed it on one, I will 24 make it a half page on the other so that it averages out 25 [ on all of them. I will commit to that. I
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432 4 11r3 1- MR. O'NEILL: I trould like to ask Mr. Eddleman I (~> (_) 2 to withdraw Contention 51 which he and I have discussed 3 and he has recognized that based on FSAR 5.3.1.6 there will n) ( 4 be six specimen capsules in each reactor vessel and there e 5. was some ambiguity in the FSAR. That is a fact, and I 9 !
$ 6I believe that satisfies Mr. Eddleman and he is willing to R $ 7 withdraw contention 51
[ 8 MR. EDDLEMAN: You are saying that is a fact. O C 9 There will be six capsules in each one, and I had the v., c g 10 specific rule and said this doesn't seem to comply with 5 11 the rule. It seemed to imply to me that there were six 5 a p 12 for two units. He said it's six per one unit, and under
-s 5
a 13 (-) 5= that basis I withdraw 51 l$ 14 JUDGE KELLEY: Very well. 15 MR. BARTH: Mr. Chairman, j 16 JUDGE KELLEY: Excuse me. I tb!nk that -- this A 17 then covers your contention subject to your filing the h 5 18 papers we discussed, right, Mr. Eddleman? 3 P [* 19 MR. EDDLEMAN: Yes, I think so , Mr. Chairman. I 20l JUDGE KELLEY: I was going to suggest that we 21 stretch for five minutes so you all could think about just I 22 what the loose ends are, and we are all a little tired and () v 23 , we might forget to do something unless we all sort of focus (s c) 24 l on that. We will do the loose ends when I get back. 25j MR. EDDLEMAN: Don't cheat me, but the June 28th I f
$ ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
433 llr4 1 amendment has something to do with the diesel generators, k' 2 and I thought I would bring that reference to your attention. 3 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. Off the record. l'3 (_) 4 (Discussion off the record) a 5 (1 recess was taken.) 9 3 6 JUDGE KELLEY: Go back on the record. I think R
$ 7 we can finish up in the next few minutes. We don't have a
j 8 a lot of items. 4 9 9 I wanted to go around the room and have people z o y 10 raise things and remind the board to do something. Let Il me just mention a few things that we do have in mind. We 5 a j 12 spoke from time to time in the course of the prehearing more (]) 5 13 I think today than yesterday about particular items that z 5 14 would be submitted in writing after this prehearing but a 15 fairly soon so that what was submitted to be considered by j 16 the board in deciding the ir. sues it has to decide. x 17 We didn't set a date for any of that. I suppose h
=
i 18 {e it would be simpler to get the same date for all or most of 5 g I9 l that material. I do not have before me -- or clear in my n 20 mind exactly what all the items are. They are Mr. Eddleman's 21 filings by way of response. (~j) 22 j Oh, there were a number of things. Bhybe I will
~
23 ask your help at this point. Mr. Eddleman, we know what (~} s _., 24 l( we are talking about because we just talked about that, 25 MR. EDDLEMAN: Yes, sir. h h li ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
4 434 llr5 1 JUDGE KELLEY: What about it? A time for you to ( 2 file that paper.
~
Do you have a' suggestion? i 3 MR. EDDLEMAN: Well, because I will be tied up in 4 () 4 the CP & L rate case for a week or two, I would need thirty e 5 days. I would like to do it at the same time that everything 0 3 6, else comes in. I would do it sooner if the rest need to. R
'$ 7 JUDGE KELLEY: . Mr . Eddleman suggests thirty days.
A y 8 Do we have anything due from CCNC or from Change ELP of that 0
$ 9 nature?
g 10 MR. RUNKLE: For_CCNC I needed to get an answer 11 back to you on whether we were going to follow up on the a p 12 physical security plan. JUDGE KELLEY: Oh,. yeah. ({) 5 13 l$ 14 MR. RUNKLE: Our board meets on the 18th. I can < C 15 drop you a letter next week sometime. You should haveuit by E I j 16 the end of next week. - , W d 17 JUDGE KELLEY: A letter to us with copies to the M 18 other partie~s?
= # Sure, ; 19 MR. RUNKLE:
n 20 FR. EDDLEMAN: Just to double-check, I said
- 21 ninety days from now that I would have it or drop it. My 22 business of pursuing the security plan. I think you said
{]) 23 3 that was okay. (^g JUDGE KELLEY: Let me take it one at a time.
\J 24hli 25f'SurelythedaythatMr. Runkle is suggesting next week is fine.
I
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435 llr6 -1 Okay. Let me-step back to Mr. Eddleman. You wanted more ( 2 time to explore the availability of experts and related 3 problems; is that right? () 4 MR. EDDLEMAN: Right. My problem is that I can s 5 make phone calls to people, but sometimes they don't return E3 3 6 them, and some people that I have called a dozen times for R
$ 7 -- half a dozen times I call them and they say yes , we will s
y 8 get it to you right away, or I call the FBI for something, d 9 and they say we will get back to you, and they don't, and I 9 z o . g 10 have to call them day in and day out for weeks, and I need 11 ninety days to track all the stuff down. Not because it will a
- j 12 take me ninety days but because I have to depend on other 5
1
'()a 13 people to locate an expert. I think I have the lawyer problem @ 14 covered.
15 { JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. Let me just proceed and
! 16 then we will get back to that then, but I would like to have x
l 6 17 ninety days on that question and thirty days on your other
\
l @ M 18 filing. E
$ 19 MR. EDDLEMAN: Right.
t E. JUDGE KELLEY: Do you have any filings, Mr. Read? 20 21 MR. READ: Well, we discussed the matter of the l 22 welding quality control. (~s)
~
23 JUDGE KELLEY: Yes, f 24 MR. READ: And I had suggested forty-five days 25i on that. - l
- ; ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
e 436 lir7 1 MR. EDDLEMAN: I hate to bring it up, but I think l (-) 2 l I'm going to have to. I have a contention that goes to that 3 where I actually named an individual in reference to record m 4 before the North Carolina Utilities Commission; and if I am I g 5! going to follow up on that, I would propose to do it on the j 6 ) same schedule that Mr. Read is basically, e7 E 7 JUDGE KELLEY: Which contention? Do you know a j 8 what number that is? O c 9 MR. EDDLEMAN: I don ' t h ave --
'd @ 10 JUDGE KELLEY: Just so we know what it is.
6 E 11 MR. RUNKLE: One of the three contentions. d 12 Probably 3D maybe. 3C.
?
(]) cg 13 MR. EDDLEMAN: Well, that is superseded I guess , c j i 14 I If you are going to require me to come up with names of b
! 15 people to pursue it, I think it would fall under 3, and I j . 16 can take my time, w
d 17 l JUDGE KELLEY: I want to keep this very clear just 5 M 18 who is going to do what. Let's be careful as we discuss these
=
fa 19 items, 20 As I recall it, Change was going to look into the 21 allegations of the people they been in touch with and they () 22 were going to come back and supply a list of specifics 23 ' without names, and then we would see where we were going' to go from there. That was what we,were going to do.
) 24 l 25 .; Correct? '
j , d J ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. ' 4
. 437 h
1 ,llr8 11 MR. READ: Yes. l O 2i JUDGE xEttEY And if you have a sim11ar contention, 3 Mr. Eddleman, I guess you might likewise do that if that O 4 eeunde tike a miesion you might underteke. c 5 MR EDDLEMAN: Fine. And the time frame is -- N 3 6 JUDGE KELLEY: We will work on that. I have R F: 7 suggestions of thirty, forty-five, and ninety days on three j 8 different items. Maybe that is okay. I am not saying that a o 9 isn't a good time frame. M
@ 10 Now, let me go co the applicants. First Of all, 11 yes -- yeah, is !-[ , 12 , MR. RUNKLE: We are not finished over on this I
{) 5g 13 side yet. h 14 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. E 15 MR. RUNKLE: Right. When Change was making their j 16 presentation was to file a brief on the fuel storage issuo i. d 17 l and the conservation -- 5 {p 18 JUDGE KELLEY: On the applicability of Table S4
$ 19 , to that situation.
20ll MR. RUNKLE: Yes. 21 JUDGE KELLEY: The Conservation Council raised (~') 22 I the same issue, v l 23 { MR. RUNKLE: I can either submit a joint brief ps, 24 with Change or submit one ourselves or just feed him , v , 25 l information. I mean -- E 3
) ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
436 s_ I I lir9 I JUDGE KELLEY: Why don't you try to work together; O 2 i and if you egree, fine. if you don c, you can each eusmie 3 something; but if you come to the same point of view, you
~
O 4; can fi1e e 3eine geger. 5 MR. READ: We would suggest forty-five days on 9 3 6 that, Your Honor. R
$ 7 JUDGE KELLEY: All right. Are there other j 8 items on this side of the room?
d d 9 (Pause) (; 10 MR. EDDLEMAN: I am not certain there are none, but II I can't think of any more. s y 12 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. Four so far. Well, first E Oi 13 on substance let me ask you two things, Mr. Baxter. First l$ 14 what have you got in the way of issues in an effort as you 15 are taking away from here? 16 MR. BAXTER: We are going to respond in writing
]
A d 17 to some of the new revised amended contentions Mr. Eddleman E { 18 provided today. P
$ 19 JUDGE KELLEY: Right, n
20 MR. BAXTER: Those were all filed with the board. 21 Is that my understanding? 22 l MR. EDDLEMAN: Yes, I passed them out to l i 23 everybody who is here. 24 JUDGE KELLEY: Right. 25 ll MR. BAXTER: We are going to respond to the U ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
430 4 11r10 1 Change motion served yesterday morning -- renewed motion on i O 2 the eegareetcn of the hearing. . 3 JUDGE KELLEY: Right. O 4 xR. BAxTER: we ere going to reepend to rategregh n e 5 of the combined health effects contention that was f 8 j 3 6 distributed yesterday morning by the group. That is the l k 7' one I wasn't prepared to answer on Sternglass. 2 ;; 4 j 8 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. [ d c 9- MR. BAXTER: And we are going to respond to -- I , I g 10 with our position on the Catawba ruling on serving documents, iG 11 JUCGE KELLEY: Right. Right.
. is y 12 MR. BAXTER: That's all we have on our list.
5 What time frame would you suggest' Q 13 JUDGE KELLEY:
@ 14 first of all for your filing? Maybe I should add one t $
- 2 15 element in terms of how the board sees it. That is to say l E
; j . 16 when we say we think we need to have these papers in order i d l @ 17 to do what we need to do, I would like to confirm my i s
{ 18 impres'sion, but my impression is that the various items E 19 that are being described right now relate to a rather -- l g l i 20 rather small number of issues that will be before the board 21 and that the bulk of the work that we have to do is submitted 22 as is, which would suggest that we are not in a real big } 23 hurry to get these submissions, i 24 On the other hand, we like to get our work done [ 25 ! in a reasonable time. l ! I i i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. l - - . _ _ . . - - . . ~ - - - -._-. - - -_. - - - - - - _
-.A llrll 1! MR. BAXTER: I would agree with you about l
O 2 everything except Mr. Edd1eman s opportunity to f11e I 3 reply argument. There are a large, large -- I hope he O 4 underetende he a not weiving any of those if he doesn c e 5 file further replies. 8 3 6 JUDGE KELLEY: No. But I was thinking about R 6, 7 that-as an exception. If that many of your contentions are [ 8 sort of hanging fire until you file, we might want to have d d 9 that fairly soon.
$ 10 MR. EDDLEMAN: Well, I will do my best, 5 @ 11 Mr. Chairman. As I recall, there were about fifty --
a f 12 somewhat less than fifty that had the basis in specificity. Oj13 chink we knoekea out twenty-five. so there t et =o t
$ 14 twenty-five more. _ You will get at most one page on that --
15 one page each on that. Probably not that. And I can do j
. 16 it faster if you think so or if you change your mind later, vs d 17 if you give me a little notice.
5 E 18 JUDGE KELLEY: You said thirty? 4 g 19 MR. EDDLEMAN: I said thirty. E 20 JUDGE KELLEY: I think that is okay with us. 21 MR. EDDLEMAN: Okay. That gives me time to deal O with the rate case then. Otherwise I could have done it 23 quicker. 24 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. Now, Mr. Baxter, can you l 25 ' pick up our thread? l
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l
441 11r12 1 MR. BAXTER: Yes. You were asking how long we O 2 wanted. 3 JUDGE KELLEY: Yeah, Right. O 4 MR. BixTER: We ere gang to a fer to meet g 5 Mr. Eddleman at fifteen days if he would come in with his W 3 6 additional argument. We would file our other papers on that u 5 7 time frame because we are anxious to get together. A y 8 JUDGE KELLEY: Well, you are offering fifteen d c 9 if he is willing to do fifteen. Is that what you say? G 10 MR. BAXTER: That's right. I think there would
$ 11 be -- may be a substantial delay in the board's deliberations is y 12 depending on what he files, and there may be a need for us 6l13 to ask leave to respond again, and after we have had these l$ 14 responses out for a month now -- at least from the j =:
15 applicant --
.'j 16 MR. EDDLEMAN: Can I deal with them informally?
e ti 17 Because fif teen days will be hard to meet. What is going s { 18 on in the two cases -- the CP & L's cases? In the rate E e 19 case they have told me no, you can't get more extension of a 20 time or you shouldn't be allowed it because what you are 21 doing with the NRC is irrelevant, and legally that has merit, 22 bue in terms of what 1 can grectiea117 do, 1e hes e prob 1em, O 23 and I would like -- 24 JUDGE KELLEY: You say you are going right into 25$arateproceedingtomorrow? I l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
442-lir13 1 MR. EDDLEMAN: No, it's not tomorrow, but I have l O 2 a filing deadline tomorrow and then the rate proceeding is 3 going to block up a lot of the end of the month, so I will O 4 do it es fese ee 1 cen under that. 1 w111 not detex. o 5 JUDGE KELLEY: Thirty days would be like the 55
$ 6l 15th of April, right?
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$ 7 MR. BARTH: 15th of August.
- 7. '
j 8 JUDGE KELLEY: August. It's late in the day. 0 o 9 MR. EDDLEMAN: What I'm suggesting, Mr. Chairman, E
$ 10 is that if you will give me a statutory thirty days, that 11 I will be willing to talk to the applicants and do my a
p 12 damnedest to get it done quicker and to block out with them 5 Oi is about how much 1'm soins to file and what 1 m soins to talk
$ 14 about so that they have some idea. You know, I'm not 15 pursuing to lay down the law to them and be bound by it, j 16 but just to talk to them a little bit next week on the us 17
{:: phone and say here is what I think I will be responding M 18 and filing something further on and here is what I think it I 19 l g will be, and let them see what they need to do on that l 0 20 bas is . 21 MR. BAXTER: No, that is not my problem so much. 22 l Q It's getting the filings before the board and the matters l 23 before the board so they can rule on them. l 24 lI MR. EDDLEMAN: I guess I am further suggesting 25 if we'can work that out, maybe we can get them filed faster. l; , t 1 ' i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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i 443 Llrl4 1 MR. BARTH: Your Honor --- O 2 MR. BAxrER: We11, between fifteen ena thirty 3 there are a limited number of alternatives. If you have O 4 one, go eheed end sex it now. g 5 MR. EDDLEMAN: What I am saying, I will try to N
. 6 make it as much less than thirty as I can, and I will try to y
n 7 talk to you about that to see if what you do has a bearing s j 8 on it. I will do it as fast as I can, but I can't commit d A 9 myself to do it in fifteen days when I have the rate case. E, . G 10 MR. BARTH: May I make a statement? The 11 agreement to which Mr. Eddleman agreed proposed by Your is j 12 Honor, agreed by everybody else, is a filing by Mr. Eddleman E Q 13 with you. I don't want any discussion with Mr. Eddleman l$ 14 or -- if he wants to talk to them, fine; but we are 15 concerned with his fulfilling the agreement he made with j 16 the licensing board to file a paper addressing objections w! g 17 ! he made with contentions. Not further negotiations or E 18 talking. E I am not negotiating the
, 19 MR. EDDLEMAN:
n 20 contentions. 21 JUDGE KELLEY: I think I can spend a few minutes 22 asking interested parties when they think they ought to file, 23 and it seems to me they are interdependent interests in this 24 matter, and it warrants some brief discussfon I think 25 we discussed it about enough, and by way of compromise we l i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
j 444 lirl5 1 8 will set your deadline, Mr. Eddleman, at August 10th. . O 2 MR. EDDtEMin: August 10the 3 JUDGE KELLEY: Right. And we will set the O 4 agglicent'e dead 11ne et August 10th aleo. e 5 MR. EDDLEMAN: Mr. Chairman, that is practically
! N @ 6 thirty days as I read it; so I don't think I have to say R $ 7 anything even though -- I think I can make it, s
j 8 MR. BARTH: Your Honor -- Your Honor, I.-- d Q 9 JUDGE KELLEY: Let me -- okay.
$ 10 MR. BAXTER: I had one other comment, hG 1I JUDGE KELLEY: Yes,
! h i is
- j 12 MR. BAXTER: If we are still on my part of it.
5 .
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! 13 I do not know. We didn' t raise an objection to Change
, m l 5 14 asking for additional time to plead a contention on j 15 construction defects because they apparently didn't , j 16 understand how they could do it without revealing names, as
(* 17 j Mr. Eddleman asked for an opportunity that I don't even f l { 18 understand what contention it relates to, and he didn't E e 19 , know either, and it seemed to me he got-it, and I just think n 20 there ought to be a motion filed if he really has some 21 contention that is similar and he needs the relief. Then 22 It's sort of a way to do business. Q he ought to assert it. 23 Just let go by. I don't know what. This is for an 24 amendment opportunity, for some unknown contention. 25 { I I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
l 445 i l 1! JUDGE KELLEY: I think you've got a good point. (]
\
2 What you're suggesting, I take it, then, is that if Mr. 3 Eddleman wants to revise a particular centention alcng the
"_T J 4 lines of the change contention that to say a welding defect i
5 contention involving someone who may or may not be named, g , h6 G he should just file a motion to do so. Is that a likely
$ 7 centention; is that right?
E j 8 MR. BAXTER: That's right. Pointing out to us G
@ 9 what he's filed already. We know what he's talking about $ 10 and we can respond to the motion. % 11 MR. EDDLEMAN: That would be okay. And the other 3
y 12 aspect of this, which I think I started to address and 5 () 13 the board wanted me to go ahead and follow up was that
$ 14 3I which that as in is superseded by the joint intervenor's
{= 15 contention on management ccpability. j 16 MR. BAXTER: That solves the problem. W a
. I
- b 17 ' JUDGE KELLEY: So are you willing to just withdraw N
E 18 it on that basis? l b 19 g MR. EDDLEMAN: Well, I'm saying it is effective n 20 withdrawal. And the question of what evidence I can get 21 3on it now is a matter for discovery. They can send me an l-(]) 22 j interrogatory, how much evidence have you got on this, and I 23a have to tell him. l 24 MR. BAXTER: That's great. We don't need 45-day []) 1 25 li leave. l
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i 446 1 1 MR. EDDLEMAN: Not to me. 2 JUDGE KELLEY: We've settled that, so the applicants 3 arc filing papers on four different items, I believe, and O 4 we've eee Auguee 10, end we see Aueust 10 for Mr. Edd1emen for s 5 his I'll call them respense papers. You had a separate is
$ 6 request of 90 days for security which strikes me as a e7 8 7 little long. I don't know. Let me ask Mr. Baxter first T. ,8, 8 and then the staff how they regard the request of 90 days d
ci 9 to move ahead on the security question.
$ 10 MR. BAXTER: I don't have any objection to that i5 j
is 11 provision. We had asked the board to do what the Catauba g 12 hoard does, and that is require intervenors to ansuer a O l ia eries or aue tion - 1 enina se wou1d de u eru1 ir enee j 14 were fornalized within the 90-day peric3 and that responce E 2 15 in, bet if that's done in the 90-day time period it's more 5 3l 16 than adequate as far as I'm concerned. A d 17 i JUDGE KELLEY: You referred to the questions -- 5 E 18 I know the questions you're talking about. I don't have a
= # 19 g copy in front of me.
5 20 MR. BAXTER: The expert is the main subject, I believe. 21 JUDGE KELLEY: I think I'd like to take a look at Q 22 that when we go home. That can be one lose end. 23! The board owes people a brief directive on what ( 24 we want them to do with regard to security and with regard to 25 your pursuing that, and we'll set a time in there, but I'll c ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
1 1 447 i 1! bear in mind your request for time and -- O V 2 ; MR. EDDLEMAN: It goes to the job that'I have in the i 3 fall, which is teaching school. It takes up more of my time () 4 i and makes it harder for me to be available. They practically e 5 never get through to me at school. h -
@ 6l '
JUDGE KELLEY: We'll bear that in mind. G F2 7 The staff 6nvisions that the board will issuc M [ 8 something f airly soon about what we'd like to hear frem people d c 9 on the subject of security, and that'll have a time limit
'd E 10 of some sort.
E 11 Do you have any time limit to suggest? h W j 12 MR. BARTH: I have no objection to the time limit 5 . proposed. I would like to point out that in our filing (]) 13
$ 14 respondings to all those contentions we included the Catawba b
2 15 papers relating to the security matter so the petitioners E j 16 who intervene have well been put on notice for some time Ss e d 17 to what you require in Catawba.
$ 18 JUDGE KELLEY: Did you give them the April order as 5
[n 19 well as March 5? 20 MR. BARTH: liot the entire order, sir. We gave them 21 pages out of it. 4 22 j JUDGE KELLEY: I'll look into that. Okay. ('} 23;l MR. BARTH: We also owe you some papers. 24 JUDGE KELLEY: Just a minuto. Let me consult my 25 l notes here for a moment. i
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! 448 A
1! Okay. Can you tell me? l 2' MR. BARTH: We owe you a paper on the Catawba 3 transportation memorandum to see whether it's consistent
; O 4 with the goeiuon we tek here. We owe y - a resy nse on j s Black Fox and 10 NRC regarding the ability to litigate 5-l ! O I j
6 l radiation emmissions permitted by the commission. E Q 7 JUDGE KELLEY: Not emmissions so much as the health s j 8 effects resulting from'the'emmissions. rJ d 9 MR. BARTH: I understand, Your Honor. If I use i h 10 the wrong words the record makes it clear and I agree with a . 11 what you're saying. I 3 j 12 We owe you a response on the motion to separate 5 Q 13 the proceedings regarding unit one from unit two, and we j 14 owe you some kind of a note'on the Catawba board's order j 15 regarding services papers. We are quite agreeable to provide 4 1 y 16 these on or before Tuesday, August 10, which you set for 2 j g 17 . other filings. . 5 l { 18 JUDGE KELLEY: Fine. E g 19 MR. BARTH: I would bring up one other matter if Cl 20 I may, when appropriate, Your Honor. 21 The staff has no objection to the admission into -- l 22 as an issue in controversy of Eddleman's contention 132 as 23j formulated on page 14 of the applicant's response to Il 24 amendments (second set) to contentions of petitioner 25 Wells Eddleman dated July 13, 1982. We discussed this i l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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i 449 i anong ourselves and have no problem with the board admitting
+
O 2lt it as a e ntenti n in this proceeding, sir. l l JUDGE KELLEY: Thank you. 1 3 Q Could you remind me, now, Mr. Daxter, where the -
, applicants stand on 132 as just referred to by Mr. Barth?
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! *! MR. BAXTER: That was our answor he was just 3
e 6 I. f reading frem. ITc agree to it. I e. 7
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450 l 13rl 1 MR. BARTH: It's time. O 2 JUDGE xsttEY: so ordered. But now getting back 3 to Change ELP in the welding, we didn't set a time. You O 4 suggested forty-five deys es e time. 1 think thet stends p 5 in a somewhat different footing because it requires your 8
@ 6 finding some people.
57 6 7 MR. READ: They will be difficult to find. M l l 8 JUDGE KELLEY: They may be. That seems d d 9 reasonable to the board. Let me check whether counsel for
$ 10 the other parties have any objection.
11 MR. BAXTER: No objection. B: 12 MR. BARTH: Staff has no objection. I 0l is 14 JUDGE xEttEY: so that le forty-five 9 1us
$ fif teen is August 60th. Now, whatever it is. Forty-five t:
l l 15 days from today. j 16 MR. EDDLEMAN: That is how I calculate them, and w d 17 it works. 5 { 18 JUDGE KELLEY: And the other thing that I see P < 19 here in my notes is the brief on the applicability of S4. l 20 It sounds like it could be done a little earlier. Say 21 August 10th along with most of the other things. 22 Q MR. READ: That's acceptable. 23 , JUDGE KELLEY: And I think that is all that I 24 recall. 25 ll MR. RUNKLE: There wasn't a ruling on the I
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, -51 13r2 1 consolidation of Change ELP. We are going to leave that I
- O 2 off2 3 JUDGE KELLEY: Yeah. Okay. Is there objection b' 4! from either the applicant or the staff to the consolidation e 5 of ELP?
k j 6 MR. BARTH: Not.from the staff. R
$ 7 MR. BAXTER: No objection.
R
$ 8 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. So ordered.
0 9 MR. READ: There was also my individual motion C[ z C . i G -10 for consolidation for Change ELP.
$ 11 JUDGE KELLEY: Granted.
a p 12 Okay. Does that take care'of it -- of the sort E Q 13 of pending assignments including one or two for the board? l @ 14 Now, just a couple of more words here from us . 15 We will be turning to doing a memo and order on these g 16 questions soon and get it out as soon as we-reasonably can. i e I7 It will take' awhile. It's fairly complicated, and there h M 18 are a lot of questions. I can't give you any confident , 5 g I9 prediction as to when that's going to happen. n 20 (Board conferring) i 21 JUDGE KELLEY: Early fall, which we will not 22 j{ define; but seriously, we will try to get it out as soon as , 23l we can, i ! 24 Now, in terms of what we got to get to, the 25 il scheduling, we did right up front talk about when we expect i I
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452 13r3 1 certain things to happen, We haven't said anything about a 2 schedule for discovery and when we issue this memo and order 3 ' which will formally grant party status and admit certain of O 4 the cententions, norme11y discovery is ogen et that goint, p 5 but it would seem to me that anything relating to scheduling 0 3 6, -of discovery depends in large part on what contentions you are it
$ 7 at and we don't want that yet with respect to a lot of them, s
j 8 so I think it's premature to really talk about that, but we a q 9 might entertain motions to that subject at that time.- That g 10 is to say right after we issue the order, and I don't really 11 see anything to set anything else now. We will know more E: g 12 when we know where we are going on the contentions. I
.O l m is mi 8ht just edd by way of information for some of the 5 14 intervenors there is a procedure set up in the rule 15 governing this kind of hearing that is 2.71 -- 715a. I j 16 think I mentioned this before where you come in and file
, e 17 objections to the order, and there being so many parties and h_ E 18 interests, there will be a lot from all quarters, but that i: l9 will be a step that we will go through after we issue our h n 20 order. 21 MR. EDDLEMAN: Judge, doesn't that section say 22 something about doing it in five days? 23 , JUDGE KELLEY: Yeah, I think it does, and it's 24 not uncommon for boards to extend that time in a complicated 25 f case, which we might well do. I l h ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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1 453l 1 t l13r4 1 MR.'EDDLEMAN: That was just a question I was () 2 asking. I am not asking for an extension. 3 JUDGE KELLEY: No, I understand. But that's (I 4 not written in stone. I don't have anything else that we e 5 have to cover, but let me go around the room again and see i 0 3 6 whether there are other things you want to raise. R
& 7 MR. EDDLEMAN: Two items I think that are minor
. B j j 8 housekeeping. One is that you mentioned about getting a d 9 9 copy of today's transcript available to me so I would know
$ 10 exactly what I was responding to and what I covered and so 5
l h 11 on and getting it to the LPDR. As long as I know it's < k l p 12 there. Either place. I will meet your August 10th (]) - 13 deadline even if you get the transcript there on August [ 14 the 9th. {= 15 JUDGE KELLEY: Yeah. You know enough now to j
. 16 start, and I thought when I got my transcript I would w
j d 17 Xerox a copy and mail it to you. Y M 18 MR. EDDLEMAN: That will be fine, Judge. 5 19 The other question I have is about the service j {n 20 list. We.are already getting some of the correspondence 21 from NRC staff. They are just sending it to us , but there () 22 are a number of -- I think including the petitioners who are 23 still here -- who I think the applicant and the staff already 24 basically said yes, we agree these folks have at least one
)
25 admissible contention and therefore they ought to be parties, {
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T 454 13r5 1I and I was wondering if on that basis those who do have at O 2 least one admissible contention could be put on the service 3 list. - O 4 JUDGE KEttEY: ror purgosee of getting cogiee of g 5 coirespondence and things like that? 3 6; MR. EDDLEMAN: Right. So that when they file e7
$ 7 another amendment to the FSAR I don't have to get on my e7 y 8 stomach at the library to fix the Xerox machine again.
d C 9 JUDGE KELLEY: The NRC has what they call a
$ 10 service list. I don't know whether they -- they issue one --
11 whether there is a different list called a party list. I is j 12 don't think there is. 1 think as a practical matter 5 ~ Oi m 13 recitionere for intervention see rut on the service tiet. 5 14 and that is that. It may be that -- I am not saying they b 15 will, but the staff may say that guy is just a petitioner j 16 so I don't have to send him anything, and if it would -- if us ( - 17 it would advance things from your standpoint if you were a 5 3 18 ! party now for that purpose, is that what you're saying? E g 19 MR. EDDLEMAN: Yes. To clear it up, I'm not as a 20 concerned about the staff because they are sending us most 21 of the stuff, but a lot of stuff that the applicants are 22 - I've been trying to work something out, but Q filing 23 ! getting on the service list from now on would be a way 24 around it. 25 i JUDGE KELLEY: Well, we have got a pending i l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY INC. _ _ _ _ _ . _ _ . _ _ _ , ~ - - _
; 455 ,g t.
L#Rc 1 objection from the applicants. We asked for their comments -- a 2 theirs and the staff's -- on the kind of order we entered in 3 the Catawba, and they are going to file their points , -and I O 4 think before ruling on that we would like to see what they e 5 have to say, S
; @ 6 MR. EDDLEMAN: Okay. Then that all comes in on l C $ 7 August 10th?
s [ 8 JUDGE KELLEY: Right. d c; 9 FR. EDDLEMAN: I am sorry. I had forgotten that, z d C g 10 JUDGE KELLEY: Anything else? 11 MR. READ: Insofar as the copy of the transcript a g 12 goes, I'd like to ask that you order one be sent to the local 1 A5
- () 13 public document room in Chapel Hill if that's feasible.
$ 14 JUDGE KELLEY: Should be. I will see what I can
, Y E 15 do. 5 y 16 Anything else from the applicants? ' s I h_I7, MR. BAXTER: I have a cleanup item. Yesterday 18 h when you were questioning me at the very beginning about I O ! 19 the emergency planning process, I put out a little g n 20 misinformation. I said that in the State of North Carolina 21 l , there is a single nuclear emergency response plan to which () 22 there are plant mitexes , and that is not correct. There are 23 ! individual state plans for each nuclear power plant in the (]) 24 state, and then there are amexes for each county within the 1 25 l EPZ. P s ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
3 456 14kl 1 JUDGE KELLEY: Thank you. ( 2 Anything else from the staff? 3 MR. BARTH: We have nothing further, Your Honor. () 4 MR. EDDLEMAN: Based on what Mr. Baxter just g 5 said, do those state plans for Harris exist yet?
? @ 6 MS, FLYNN: No.
R d 7 MR. EDDLEMAN: Maybe not. Okay. 7< g 8 JUDGE KELLEY: Okay. Well, I think it's been d C 9
, a productive conference and I appreciate everybody's g 10 cooperation and contributions , and we will be getting back 11 '$ to you in the form of a decision before too long and then s
g 12 we'll carry on from there. ()Qfm 13 Thank you very much,
@ 14 15. FLYNN: Thank you.
D 15 We ' re adj ourned. JUDGE KELLEY:
.j 16 (Whereupon, the proceedings were adjourned.)
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NUCLEAR REGULATORY COW 4ISSION This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the
'3 Nuclear Regulatory Commission, Atomic Safety and Licensing Board, in the matter of: Shearon Harris Nuclear Power Plant, Units 1 and 2 Date of Proceeding: July 14, 1982 Docket llumb er : 50-400 OL and 50-401 OL Place of Proceeding: Raleigh, North Carolina were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the Commission.
Ronald Graham Official Reporter (Typed) ,$ 7, l cA d AA:A,J Official Reporter (Signature) Kathleen M. Cardea
, Official Reporter (Typed) //
AAlue- Le cfL % Official Reporter (Signature) ~)}}