ML20154S331
| ML20154S331 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Comanche Peak  |
| Issue date: | 04/06/1984 |
| From: | Carpenter T, Griffin H, Ippolito T GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY PROJECT, NRC OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS (OI), Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20154R138 | List: |
| References | |
| NUDOCS 8604010068 | |
| Download: ML20154S331 (106) | |
Text
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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS
- 4 REGION IV 5
6 7
CONFIDENTIAL INTERVIEW 9
10 Friday, April 6, 1984 11 Cleburne, Texas 12 13 The interview was commenced at 2:37 p.m.
14 PRESENT:
15 H. BROOKS GRIFFIN, Investicator, Office of Investigations, U. S. Nuclear Regulatory 16 Commission, Region IV, Arlington, Texas 17 THOMAS IPPOLITO, E1gineer, U. S. Nuclear 18 Regulatory Commission, NRR, Washington, D. C.
THOMAS E. CARPENTER, Leaal Intern, Government 19 Accountability Project, 1901 Q Street, N. W.,
Washington, D. C. 20009 20 Interviewee 22 23 24 M l B604010060 860320 PDR ADOCK 05000445 A PDR .
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l 1 PROCEEDINGS I 2 MR- CRIFFIN: Okay, for the record, this is an 3 interview of ; the location 4 of this interview is Cleburne, Texas, on April the 6th, 5 1984.
6 Present at this interview are Tom Carpenter for ,
7 the Government Accountability Project; 8 H. Brooks Griffin, Investigator for the NRC, and Mr.' Burns, 9 the Court Reporter.
10 Whereupon, 11 m having first been duly sworn by Investigator Brooks, was G examined and testified as follows: .
14 Q The first thing we want to go into is, it is my 15 understanding that you desire confidentiality in exchange for 16 your testimony.
17 I am going to give.you a copy of our confidentiality 18 agreement here --
2 (Handing document to witness) 20
-- and if you'd read along with me, I'm going to 21 read it into the record; and then as I read it, I'm going to 22 offer you explanations if you do not understand. .
23 So if we do enter into an agreement here that we 24 will both have a clear understanding of what the contents
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2s require from each other.
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It says, title, "
Confidentiality Agreement." !
1 l
- 2 "I have information I wish to provide in confidence .
3 to the U. S.
Nuclear Regulatory Commission. I request an 4 ,
express pledge of confidentiality as a condition for provid- ,
k 5 ing this information to the NRC. I will not pr' ovide this i 6
information voluntarily to the NRC without such confiden- }
7 tiality being extended to me." !
8 Do you understand,that? -
9 A Yes.
10 Q All right.
11 "It is my understandinq consistent with its needs U to meet legal obligations that the NRC by agreeing to this 13 i
confidentiality will adhere to the following conditions."
14 Now,
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this is what the government agrees to do'as 15 part of the bargain:
, 18 "1.
The NRC will not' identify me by name or 17 personal identifier in any NRC-initiated document, conversa-18 tion or communication released to the public which relates 2
directly to the information provided by me."
Do you understand that?
21 !
i We won't use your name, title, anything else that .
22 would -- in our reports that would -- tend to identify you 25 to a person reading that, j . 24 i "I understand that a public release can encompass 25 any distribution outside of the NRC, with the~ exception of f
9
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t other public agencies which may require this information in 2
, furtherance of their responsibilities under law or public 3 trust." '
4 An example of another agency that we might be
- 5 required to furnish such information to would be, like, 6
if you filed a Department of Labor case, or something like 7
that; they would be entitled to'the information under the 8 law.
9 "2.
The NRC will disclose my identity within the 10 NRC only to the extent required for the conduct of NRC-11 related activities."
u In other words, those.oeoole that would be involved i-13 a in following up -- those NRC employees who would be involved l
14 in following up technical allegations that you may provide i 15 the NRC might require your name to look for your name in
- 16 records.
17
. You know, if they were going to look for a 18 traveler or.an inspection which you had done, they would 19 need to know your name to recognize you as the person that
- 20 made the allegation that something is wrong,'that signed
- 21 something. .
22 But the NRC agrees as part of this confidentiality 23 agreement to disclose your name within the NRC.cn a very 24
.. limited basis. Only those that need to know will be told.
25
{ A Right.
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Q In the inspections -- and that's really what we're 2
talking about here -- that pertain to the technical issues 3
that you raise, that you have raised or will be raising in 4
the course of your -- that are listed in your affidavit --
5 t the NRC is putting together a team.
6 The individual inspectors who will compose that 7
team are not known at this time. And it's conceivable 8
and even pr'obable that individuals from Region IV, individual 9
ins'pectors from Region IV, might be called upon to perform to some duties involving inspections that could relate to your 11 specific allegations.
3 So I cannot promise you that no Region IV personnel 13 ,
would be involved in inspecti'on duties at' Comanche Peak --
14 MR. CARPENTER: Can we go off t'he record.
15 MR. GRIFFIN: Let's go off the record for a 16 minute.
17 (Discussion off the~ record.)
18 11R. GRIFFIN: Okay, I have inadvertently asked 3 Mr. Burns to go off the record. We have not gone off the 20 record. We are going to discuss the details of this on the 21 record so that this' issue, I hope, can be put to bed.
22 I understand your concerns about the ability.of 23 Region'IT/ personnel to maintain confidentiality of witnesses 24
., that come to them. I have heard this concern before.
25 Unfortunately, in the realities of the world and r- - - - - - +
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1 the NRC, we -- the NRC -- have limited staff. Region IV 2
staff is made up of hundreds of individuals, many or all are 3
{ reputable, honest people who do their jobs to the best of thei r
! 4 ability.
i 5 An indictment by anybody of Region IV in general,
- 6 .
I think, is unfair.
t_ '
4 7
Now, regardless of the concerns of individuals or 8
groups who have interest in the Comanche Peak proceedings, 9
l like' the Government Accountability Project or any local i 10 intervenorm, the NRC is not in a position to exclude our 11 inspection staff from pursuing their duties on a day-to-day U basis.
J
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] NRC inspectors will continue to conduct inspections ^
14 at Comanche Peak, i M At this time I have no information or no agreement 16 that exists anywhere that says that no witnesses from the 17 Government Accountability Project or any allegations they have j 18 will be excluded from.any of our Region IV inspectors.
i 8 i
It is understood that the Government Accountability i; 20 Project -- that the responsibility for following up the 21 allegations at Comanche Peak has been switched to'representa-22 4
tives'from NRR, part of the NRC; and who they select to 23 conduct the inspections is strictly up to them.
- + 24 Now, if you have a voncern, if GAP has a concern, 25
,, to specifically following who, specifically,.follows up
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your allegations, you can -- I am'sure that those p'eople will 2
be glad to receive a phone call at GAP; and you ,'an express 3
your concern to them; but whether they follow your desires, 4
I have not the authority nor inclination to commit to that.
5 Do you understand what I am saying?
6 THE WITNESS: I understand what you're saying.
7 But past experience with Region IV as a whole 8
has been -- has not been one to make you want to confide in 9 them.
10 MR. GRIFFIN: I understand what vou're saying.
11 THE WITNESS: And it's a group allegation.
U MR. GRIFFIN: I sympathize with ycur concerns.
13 I guess the only hopeful thing N can tell you is 14 that your concerns are being taken into consideration, your ui concerns as voiced per GAP; and I think one of the purposes 16 at present as to the responsibility for investigating allega- ~
17
! tions at Comanche Peak has been put temporarily under NRR, f 18 rather than Region IV. ,, ,
i 18-NRR is Nuclear Reactor Recaarch, it's a Division a
20 .
of the NRC that is responsible for the_ licensing of these 21 plants.
When they get near to licensing, NRR presumably takes ,
22
.over and is responsible for determining whether a particular
! II plant gets licensed.
24 ~
At this time it is my understanding that-NRR 35 is primarily responsible.for following up allegations at
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. Comanche Peak, rather than Region IV -- is responsible for 2
that.
3 And if you all agree to make your concerns known 4
to NRR -- as a matter of fact, the man that will be primarily 5
responsible for the handling of NRCs future inspections at 6
Comanche Peak should be here in a few minutes.
I If this proceeds, you're welcome to express your 8
concerns to him; I think he's already aware of them. Who he 8
or his superiors pick to do inspections is not in my 10 control.
11 But in a good faith effort I can -- I would like to 12 tell you that every attempt will be made to not only abide 13 by confidentiali'ty, but address your allegations and your 14 concerns on a speedy and equitable basis to arrive at the M
truth.
16 And I am afraid that there will be limited personnel 17 within NRC whd are asking you to take us on good faith.
18 MR. CARPENTER:
Speaking for GAP, it -is my understanc.
19 ing that Region IV would have nothing to do with this .
20 investigation so far as eyewitnesses go and their identities .
21 And Ms. Garde has expressed to me and the witnesses 22 that Region IV will have nothing tc do with that.
23 MR. GRIFFIN: I don't know who has made any commit-4 ,
ments to Ms. Garde as to the exclusion of Region IV personnel in future inspections to be conducted at Comanche Peak, which
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come from GAP witnesses.
2
- I do not have any know3 edge that any such agreement 3
has been i.ade.
4 MR. CARPENTER: We can't proceed until it's '
5 cleared up.
6 MR. GRIFFIN: Okay.
} 7 Off the record.
8 '
(Discussion off the record.)
9 MR. GRIFFIN: Let the record show that Tom 10 Ippolito of NRR has joined us here.
11 While we were off the record we were able tc resolve 12
,the concer_n by the witness and GAP representative about the 13 use of Region IV personnel.
14 Their concerns have been duly noted.
Mi To continue with the confidentiality agreement:
- 16 No. 3 -- if you'll read along with me?
17 ~
"During the course of the inquiry or investigation 18 the NRC will also make every. effort consistent with the HI investigative needs of the Commission to avoid actions which would clearly be expected to result in the disclosure of 21 my identity to persons subsequently contacte,d by the NRC.'"
22 4 In other wcrds, as we make our inquiries, we will 25 attempt to do it in'such a-way that-you would not be
- Y identified as the person having made the original complaint 26 Okay.
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"At a later stage I understand that even though 2 ;
t,he NRC will make every reasonable effort to protect my 3
identity, my identification could be compelled by orders or 4
subpoenas issued by courts of law, hearing boards, or 5
similar legal entities.
6 "In such cases the basis for granting this 7
promise of confidentiality and any other relevant facts will~
8 be communicated to the authority ordering the disclosure in an effort to maintain my confidentiality."
10 And what this means is that a court of law could 11 compel the NRC to give your name. They have the legal U
. authority to compel.
13 If they did, the NRC would resist this in every 14 possible way. '
A common way, or an example I might give is that 16 i^ 1 court of law or hearing board said, "Tell us who gave '
17 you the specific allegation ," 'and we resist it in every_ way
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l possibl e, and they still demanded i t , . we would then attempt 8 '
to release it only to the authority,.itself like a Federal_
i 20 Judge.
We'd probably ask him to go in Chambers and say, 21 "Okay, the person's name is so-and-so; are.you _
E satisfied?"
23 "Yes, I'm satisfied , ~
and it remains confidential."
3'
.p, But we would do averything in our power to abide 25 i
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by the confidentiality.
2 The last sentence in that paragraph says:
3 "If such efforts prove unsuccessful, a representa-4 tive of the NRC will attempt to inform me of any such action 5
before disclosing my identity."
6 What that means is that if the NRC were compelled 7
. after all resistance to give your name, we would attempt to 8
let ycu know in advance.
8 I hope -- I see no reason why this should ever 10 be the case, now or in the future; and certainly not in 11 your case.
U Okay, now, the next paragraph involves your part 13 in the bargain; which is what you have to agree to for us 14 to reach this contract.
5
, "I also understand that the NRC will consider me to 16 have waived my right to confidentiality" -- that- means to 17 have given up your right to confidentiality - "if I take 18 any action that may reasonably be expected to disclose my 18
- . identity" --
20 A For instance, if you get up from our interview 21 today and,you go out where you live and you start telling 22 "
people, I was up talking to the'NRC and this is what I 1
25 told them," -- and we find out about that; we will, you know H
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be aware that you have disclosed this confidential nature; -
25 you have already released it and broken the agreement. ,
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"I further understand that the NRC will consider me 2
to have waived my rights to confidentiality if I crovide 3
or if I have previously provided information to any other 4
party that contradicts information that I provided the NRC, 5
or if circumstances indicate that I am intentionally providing 6
false information to the NRC."
7 Do you understand that?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes.
9 If I'm lying, you got me!
10 MR. GRIFFIN:
Well, "we got You" as far as it would 11 violate the terms of the a'reement. g U
Are the terms agreeable to you? Can you abide by 13 your part of the bargain so far as you maintaining your' 14 confidentiality?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 MR. GRIFFIN: And is it your wish that we enter 17 into this agreement?
18 MR. CARPENTER: I would like to put on tne record 19 now GAI's additions as expressed yesterday by Ms. Garde; also 20 GAP, since we are representing EEEEEPin these proceedings, 21 consistent also with the we would like to be 22 assured that the NRC send a copy of the investigative report 23 when it is completed by this team; and, secondiv, that we 24 would expect you to follow the normal 02: policies and retain
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25 all material that you collect during the course of the
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investigation as it relates to 2
In other words, hold onto your notes and other 3
kinds of things so we can examine the basis of your 4
assumptions and conclusions.
5 I think that was fairly well expressed vesterday.
6 Lastly, I would like to reiterate 7-concerns concerning Pegion IV's investigation personnel, the 8
use of_them; and we would like to point out on the record 9
that based on understanding of past experiences 10 with other "whistleblowers" that have been disclosed to the 11 utility -- intentionally or unintentionally -- she would
.U not like to see Region IV personnel investigate. We understan 3 I ~
13 you cannot promise that; but we would like you to take that 14 into consideration.
M MR. GRIFFIN: Okay.
16 In response to your conditions, the NRC agrees 17 I to provide with a copy of the portions of the 18 report when it is released to the public; that does not includa 3
the whole report, just that which is released to the public.
20 We are prepared to fellow our own policy, obviously, 21 and we will do so faithfully.
22 We note your concern about Region IV personnel.
. 1 23 But we can make no promise as to what personnel will be 24 used in the course of follow-up inspections as to your 25 allegations. I 1
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15 Do you wish to enter into an agreement with the i
2 *
.h NRC to grant confidentiality?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR. GRIFFIN: 'Okay.
5 i
It says: "I have read and fully understand the 6
contents of this agreement, and I agree with its orovisions."
.7 Is that agreeable to you?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes. -
9 MR. GRIFFIN: Okay, I need you to sign right where 10 it says " Signature of Source of Information". And you may 11 t also date it.
n (Witness signing document.)
13 MR. GRIFFIN: This is April 6th.
14 Okay, Tom, why don't you witness?
15 (Mr. Carpenter signing document.) I 16 1
MR. GRIFFIN: Okay.
1 17 (Investigator Griffin signing document.)
M _
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MR. GRIFFIN: Okay,,we do not have a Xerox or a 19 copier here, but I will be glad to mail you a copy.
3D You are also entitled to a copy of the transcript I i
) of the proceeding here when it becomes available to us. .And I i
I will, also, at the same time' send you a copy of the agree-23 ment.
1 cs I would like to go on into the interview now.
( -
I plan to follow the affidavit that you provided for
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16 1 continuity.
What we will do is we will be taking your 2
affidavit and trying to expandon the information by adding 3
specifics, information that will help us perform our 4
follow-up invest 3gaticas and inspections.
5 EXAMINATION 6
BY MR. GRIFFIN:
7 Q Your name is 8 A Yes.
9 Q Would you tell me how you were employed at Comanche 10 Peak Steam Electric Station?
11 A I was Quality Control Inspector, Weld Inspector, U
Level-2, with an A grade and NDE Technician.
U Q This is for Brown & Root? .
14 A This is for Brown & Root.
15 Q And at the time you left Brown & Root, did you still 16 hold this position of Level-2?
l~ A Yes.
18
.Q When did you begin your employment with Brown &
19 Root?
8 A 21 Q
And what was the date that you ended your employment 2 there?
23 A
I 24
. l Q What was your job -- your job title was Quality 25 Control; is that richt?
17 1 A Yes.
2 Q Level-37 3 A Yes.
4 Q And what did you inspect.as far as to your duties?
5 A In the course of my employment, I have inspected gg }y pipe supports, conduits, stainless steel liner, mechanical 7
equipment, snubbers -- just about everything.
Mk-M 8 Q The first allegation that you addressed in your 9
aff'idavit here relates to the fabrication of I-bolts on-site.
10 Could you tell me about that?,
11 A Well, it was when I was first transferred in to --
Et back into ASME; I had been in non-ASME first as lead person 13 for the radwaste monitoring system before it was called 14 non-ASME.
15 And then after they organized and called it 16 non-ASME, they wanted to put someone else as the foreman so 17 they could justify my being foreman over such a small group; 18 and so I, at that point, I went into stress analysis as-built N program on nights.
20 I asked that I go nights so that I could go to 21
- TCJC and take some courses that I wanted to take toward.
22 an Associate's Degree.
23 Q And what was the time frame for this?
24 A I believe it was in March of '
81.
2 Okay.
Q
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Just'as a reminder to you, looking at your 2
affidavit here as it relates to your concerns about I-bolts, 3 you reference June of '82?
4 A
. Oh,.I'm sorry.
5 Okay, that's right: '82; '
81 was when it was G
radwaste.
7-Q Okay.
8 8 A Then, after that, I went into the hospital. And 8
when I came out they transferred me'back into ASME on the 10
) night shift; and put me in the pipe fab shop, so I wouI'dn't-
. 11 have to climb.
12 And that was in June of '82. And that's when I was j 13 in the fab shop.
j 14 I was,on inspection out there. I had been_out tnere ,
15 I guess, about a week; and I saw them welding an I-rod.
4 16 And so I went over and I asked him, "What are you '
17 doing," you know; I thought he was making some special project 18' or something; you know, just in conversation.
P 18
'And he said, "well, I'm making an I-bolt."
l 20 And I said, "What for?"
4 21 And he said, "Well, for _a hanger in the reactor.".
- 22 And I said, "Well, where's your documentation?"
23 i He said, "I don't need any documentation."
l 24 I said, "You can't put'anything in a Class-1 G ~
25 structure with no documentation. What does it go to?"
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And he said, "Well, it was a vendor hanger, it 2
came in; and they lost the I-bolt. And so when they lose 3
them, they just send up here and give us the measurements; 4
and we weld them up."
4 5
And I said, "What are you welding them with?"
6
, " Miscellaneous rod. Do it all the time."
7 Q Who was this that you were talking to?
- 8 A I was talking to a craftsman, and I.can't -I 9
1 rea'lly can't remember his name -- at that time. It's been 3 10 1
a while and, also, at that time I was new in the shop. So 11 a lot of the craftsmen I didn't know.
12
-Q Okay.
3 I
13 i
,j In your affidavit you referred to a fellow by the 14
]'
name of Joel, and the' fabrication shop foreman? Would this N
i be who you are referring to? -
16 A Okay.
17 Well, it wasn't Joel. ~
N Q Okay.
N A Then I went to Joel about it, to tell him that they so were not -- what they were doing; they were not supposed to 21 do it..
22 And'Joel thought -- he said, "Well, we do this 23 all the time." He said, "There's nothing wrong with it,"
24 said, "it was a vendor product and we lost it; so we just 25 make another one; it's already got documentation on it; we don't I.
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l 20 I have to make any more."
2 "You cannot do that!"
3 So I stopped them from doing that. And --
4 Did you write an NCR?
Q 5 A No, I didn't.
-6 I called up my supervisor and he came up and I told 7 him about.it.
8 Q Who was your supervisor?
l 9 A- Jim Reagan (phonetic).
10 And I had made a list of about eight different 11 problems I had found in the shop that I felt were out of Ut procedure. And I gave them to Mr. Reagan and.he took them 13 to the day shift superintendent, Mr. Seavers; and they told 14 Reagan that they would take care of it and make sure that 3
these things were straightened out.
-- 16 And they were going to get -- I had a problem with 17 material traceability, because they would just go out_into 18 the yard if they wanted a Class-1 or Class-2 material, and 18 they couldn't find that material in a Class-1, well, then, the r 20 would just go find an MR with a Class-1 number.
21 .
MR. IPPOLITO: You're going on to,the next one.
22 THE WITNESS: Yuh, right. I'm sorry.
23 MR. GRIFFIN: I can understand why you're doing it.
24
. But what we need to do first is we want to.get all of the i 25
. specifics _we can about the I-bolts; and then we'll go along l
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with the others. .
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THE' WITNESS: Okay.
3 MR. GRIFFIN: We recognize that that's another of 4
your concerns.
5 MR. IPPOLITO: I'm not that familiar with the 6
site.
And I understand there are a number of fabrication 7
- shops.
8 So, is there a title to the fabrication shop which 8
you had?
10 THE WITNESS: It's the iron fab shop, it's what we 11 called stainless -- the structural steel, iron fab shop, I believe is the real, title of it.
13 MR. IPPOLITO: That will help us zero in on the 14 right one.
15 THE WITNESS: Okay.
16 MR. IPPOLITO: I don't want to go looking in one 17 place when I'm supposed to look at another.
! 8 THE WITNESS: There are several fab shops; you're 19 righ't.
20 MR. IPPOLITO: Yuh.
21 4
BY MR. GRIF, FIN: . -
22 Q
And you are sure that these hangers were safety-8 related?
24
.,. A Yes,.I'know they were.
Because, the men didn't even realize that they were
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'l doing anything wrong, because, like, they told me, they said, 2
l "We've been doing this all the time."
3 And so when we went to Joel about it, well, he was 4
really honest about it, too; because he had been doing it 5
since he'd been there, you know. -
4
- 6 And then when I called the supervisor uo and he i
1 7
found out that it was.not appropriate that he should be doing 8
} it, well, then, he got really upset about it.
8 But Reagan took what-we had to the day shift to 10 let them know what was going on; and they were going to do 11 something about it.
8 And they'd keep telling us -- and I'd keep asking.
13 and Reagan would keep asking day shift, "What are you doing?
14 f What's been done about this?"
8 "Oh, nothing; don't write it up; don't worry.about 16 -
it; we're taking care of it."
17
. That was just what we got all the time.
I 2 4
Q Can you think of.a~way to identify hancers that 1
i 8 were actually nonquality, nonpedigreed materia'Is were used?
A If they're not-painted, then it's easier to identify 21 are welds from vendor welds for an_' inspector that's been out 22 9 there.
4 3
)
.Q Do you know of any --
24
,; A 4.y But I-couldn't -- I wish I had kept some numbers, 25
'but...
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1 Q What we're left with there is --
2 A An allegation.
3 Q Well, what we would like to do is, if there are b
4 many of them, we would like to find them to corroborate your 5 statement.
4 6
Can you think of anything, anybody we can talk to, 7
any records we can look at, that.would direct us to either 8
the h* angers you're talking about that you ran into here;.
i 9
_ or have you got a hint for us that would direct us to i
10 one that contained the use of scrap metal?
l 1
11 A There's a guy out there called " Rabbit" -- but I u don't know what his real name was; but we just called him
, 13 " Rabbit".
14 (Laughter)
- 15 1
Q Would he --
16 A Be would probably know, because -- thinking about i
j 17 it, I believe it was " Rabbit" that was doing the welding.
18 l
Because we only had two welders in the shoo at that time.
N Q Who were they, Rabbit and.who else?
i 20 A Rabbit and -- I can see him so well, but-I can't 4
21 think of his name.
- 22 Q Okay.
2 A Woodie, Woodie -- because he had a false leg..
24 - Okay.
Q. I'm sure we can identify him from that.
25 If we talked to Woodie and Rabbit, do you think that i
,, . %,ge. ey 4 . won - *
- s. ' .
, +. ,+-
- - - * - ..,w ---w -m e- . - - - - . , < - .c--w-- 3 y 9
! . 24 I
-+
they would corroborate what you said on the use of this type 2 of material for vendor items?
3 A I think that Rabbit probably would. I don't know 4
about Woodie. -
5 And I know Rabbit's not there; he went -- he left; ,
6 I think he -- I heard he was going to Alaska to the pipeline 4
7 there. So, I don't know.
8 MR. IPPOLITO: Well, I think you said they were 9
doing this without paperwork?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, there was no paperwork.
11 MR. IPPOLITO: So, therefore, you wouldn't expect M
the paper trail to tell you; would you?
13 THE WITNESS: Well, no, you wxildn't, but --
14 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
2 Q If I understood you correctly, you s' aid in the case 16 of I-bolts they were vandor items that_were lost; so I 17 i
presume that the paper trail for that particular hanger would 18 be that -- if the original E-bolts were still there, that 19 would be the indication on the paper; is that right?
20' A Um-huh.
21 Q Okay. .
E That's right, because you see, there would be -- the 23 only thing they would have gotten was a phone call;.and they 24 a, . -
would have written it down on something like a memo, a three-3 part, or stuff like that. And I don't believe they would have i
e eme m
_. 7.- 1 - . . . _ . . , .
25 I
i attached that to any of the hanger packages; although they 2
might have.
Because they didn't.think they were doing anythi rq 8 l wrong; so they may very well have at.tached those memos 4
a to the packages, 5
Q Do you know of anything in proceaure that 6
i addressed the problem of the loss of vendor parts for hangers I
or any other items that would have been handled by the fab 8
shop?
8 Do you know what the procedure was ror that?
10 1
A No, I can't specifically think of anything that 11 had to do with lost vendor parts at that particular time.
U Q Okay. -
U l
As the quality. control inspector, what should they 14 have done when they identified that parts.were missing?
3 A
As the quality control inspector I would think they 16 should have -- it should have been identified by craft to 17
' ~~
QC, if they had lost a piece, they should have let QC know
, 18 about it; so that we could have written the proper pacerwork-8 and NCR'd probably.
20 Because that's really about the only thing we had left at that time, NCR; so that there would..be -- so that 22 we could start a paper trail: "This item's been lost," then we could get the right documentation, RPS, to make the item or manufacture an item.
l Q "RPS" means?
1
~i
]
, i 26 1 A Repair Process or Manufacturina Record Sheet, 2
something so that we could have traceability on it.
3 Okay.
Q 4
Did they give you any indication as to how long 5
they had been using an informal system of using scrap?
6 A No.
7 His comment was, "We 've always done it like this."
8 You know, but it's wrong, vou can't do that.
M dl Because we don't kno*r what material they used.
10 me Q Okay, now, where we interrupted you a while ago, AQ-s 11 you indicated that the use of scrap material was a regular b A
~\ V U practice in fabricating Q-material?
13 That's what you're sayina in your affidavit here.
14 And my question to you is:
15 Do you know of any other specifics, other than the 16 I-bolt situ'ation, in which you actually saw scrap material 17 being used in quality --
18 A Could you show that to me, please?
19 Q I'm in this paragraph, right here (indicating 20 document)?
21 (Pause) 22 A Well, I was wondering about the word " scrap," ,
23 i because what I've indicated, or what I meant to indicate, !
24
. . '~ .
was that we had material out there that -- in the laydown yard 25
-- and it had heat numbers on it.
i 1
___s.. .- -. ..n.- - - - -
~,v y.-~--- - ~ ~ ~ ~ * '
' ~ ' - ~ " * - '
i
, s -
-27 1
By the heat number then you can go to the material 2
requisition, which you're supposed to have ~
the receiving 3
inspection report referenced on it; that'gives you the code 4
class- that that material is to be used on.
-5 Q Um-huh.
6 A Nothing but Class-1 material can be used on 2
7 Class-1.
8 r
Now, Class-1 material can be used on Class-2 and j 8 3; that's all right. But you can't go up; you can go down.
1 10
} So what happened would be that they did not have
$ 11 what they needed of I-beam, 2 x'12 I-beam, or something like 12
] that.
13 Okay, they'd get out there,-they didn't have that
- i 14 I-beam in a Class-1.
j 15 So what would happen, if on this end of the material is here (indicating) would-be the heat number that was put on 17 i
by the factory. Okay. So what would happen is they'd come 18 down here (indicating) and look in the MR.that they had 18 pulled out.t of the book --
1 8
Q "MR" meaning what?
E A Material Requisition - that says, Class-1, here's 22 the-hest number for the-Class-1 material on this type of 23 I-beam, whatever.
24 l . . ..
And then they would put that. number on there. And 25 then they'd cut it off, and then bring it up.there and put t
.. ,- . - - - - . - - ~ - - - - - ~ . - ~ -
+
- 1 -
4 . -
28 1
it down on the pile and say, "
'I need to cut a piece off of 2
this for the hanger that I'm fabricating for the MIL."
3 I Well, there you were with just a new number stamped 4
on there, and no way'of knowing had that piece come off?
5 Was the " mother number" that heat number? Or was the 6
< mother number another number?
t 7
And I found several times, I found sieces out there '
8 that had -- where they had just taken the piece -- in this 1
9 particular piece it was quarter-inch plate, where on one side 10 it had a heat number for Class-1 material.
l 11 J I turned it over and on the other side it was ~
M Class-2 heat number! .
D And I had them take the whole thing out there and 14 I sprayed the whole thing red, with red paint; so nobody
- 2 would stick it up and no way it could be covered up.
i is
- And then again went to my' supervision, who again 17 went to day shift supervision, who again told us that they
- 18 would do something.
s N
What I finally instituted was that I would, when
~
20 they had to move a piece from the criginal number, the mother 21 number, then, I would go,out there and they would show me:
22
- here's the original number; I would get the MR;rthen, they 23 i would transfer the number to another end, another place; then 24
- -y
- e I would stencil it and initial it and date.that.-- to let any 25 other inspector know-that, yes, although this is a new-stamped-L
, n
- +: +-
=. . %e. w - ., . . - % e ,-- e , . m p.
m -,e3-- - , - - ev- aygy 9 , p---**rg y yw -y
, i
. . . . - . . , . . _ . - ~-
. 4 1 ? .
29 i 1 number and not the factory number, this is. good, because I 2
watched it: I saw it done.
- 3 Q Let me ask you, because of my limited understanding 4
i 4 of craft shop procedures:
- 5 i If you had a piece of I-beam that was 50 feet long s
and in the fab shop they needed to cut it into 50 one-foot f 7 pieces, would you not have to transfer the same heat number f
8 i
to each of those pieces, with a QC inspector present, --
! 9 A Yes.
i i 10 Q
So that would have been your job, to sit there and "
11 watch it being transferred?
12
, A Yes.
13 Q And are.you saying that they, on occasion, I
- 14
- transferred other numbers?
3 A i
e Yes.
- 16 What I'm saying is that --
i j 17 Q Invaiid numbers?
- 2 A No, they're good heat. numbers.
! 2
-But they weren't for that piece of material.
20 Q Why would they bother? Is it that they didn't know 21 what the heat number was?- '
- 1 22 1 A
4 No, it would be because they needed a specific kind 23 ,
< of material and in a class that we.didn't have.
24
, Q
';r Okay, you're saying the heat number would indicate 25 the class -- Class-1, 2 or 37 i 1 l
. 4.... _ _ _., -----+-: * *
---+-. ~"" ^
, _ . ,. , . , . . ~,w- ' '' '
30 1 A Yes.
2 Q So they would change heat numbers to upgrade them?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Okay, I gotcha.
5 Can you think of~any instances where you were 6
present when this occurred? -- and where you can identify 7
to us the people that were involved, so that we can under-8 stand?
9 A The one that I told you about, the first two that 10 I found, you know, when I first came up there -- and this was 11 in the.first week I was up there -- I cannot tell.you who the 12 craftsmen were involved.
13 And I don't even know that it was my craftsmen that. !
14 were involved, you know, that they were~the ones.
15
_ What they brought me was a piece of plate that is had a heat number oa it; and they said, I need this. It was 17 a number that had been stamped'in by somebody. I don't know 18 if it was them, because I didn't see them put the number there .
N But then when I turned-it over -- just, you_know, 20 -
I turned it over -- to look at it, well, there's another-lu heat number on it. . .
Q So you knew that somebody had been tampering with 23 it?
24
, 3;, A I knew somebody had. tampered with'it.
25 This had been a~ concern of mine because when they
- p. . ..+. v. -.
- - ~ ~ - - - - ----- "--
o '. ,
31 I
would have to cut off for some reason, they had to get it on 2
the floor or something, they had to cut off the original 3
numbers from the factory. Then they were stamping a number 4 on there.
5 So there was no QC verification; QC was not there 6
verifying that they stamped the right number on there. They 7
could transfer any number.
8 Q Were you the only QC inspector in the fab shop?
9 A On nights, I was; yes.
10 Q And you would have witnessed all transfers while on 11 nights when you were in the fab shop?
U A Yes.
13 Q And how many instances would you say you found 14 where you believe heat numbers had been improperly.or M illegally transferred?
16 A Well, I really -- I can't answer th'at; because the 17 first week that I was there I changed a lot of things.
18 I changed the way the shop-was going, because I was N
picking up things that they had not been paying attention to.
3 Q Do you think that your coming thera 43 an inspector H
caused them to tighten up on their adherence to procedures 22 and requirements?
2 A Yes.
24 Q Okay. '
3 A That, and I was-trying to get something done l
n 32 1 about the maintaining traceability on the material -- if you 2
~
took a piece of pipe, say, 10 feet long; and you got a 3
mother number here (indicating).
4 And they cut the mother number off. They transfer 5
the number over here (indic.ating).
6 Okay, you take 2 feet off of that, and your mother
~
7 number -- she's gone.
8 You got 8 feet left. Okay, what you got in here 9
is a new number, the number cou transferred over here 10 (indicating).
11 T2.en they take it, they put it on the crane; they U
- f lift it back and drop it in laydown yard.
13 They may come back and get it 6 months later. Well, 14 when it coras back in, there's nothing on there that indicates 3
that that was the true number that was transferred, unless 16 the QC inspector has circled it and dated it.
17 And nobody -as doing that.
18 Q I understand..
18
.When you say " circle and date," you're not talking 20 about on the piece, itself; are you?
21 A
Yes, I'm talking about the piece, .,itself.
22 Q What do you'use to circle the date on there? l 23 A
I would use a Marsh Marker to circle the number and 24 then I would put my initials on there; and then I would date 25 it.
I 1
i l
qNe " M amp emmeM* *"' y * 'S *$ p- ~9 4erehmupe m
- e-46p uhe @egne e t--iW' er - 9 % m,. --
9* * * - g4g au-
A. . . . ,
i o ,
33 ,
4 i
1
. What they kept telling me was that they were going _
2 to get me some kind of a special. stamp so that each one of
- 3 us that worked in the fab shop would have.a designated stamo; 4
4 and we could take and knock into that number, to let every 5
other inspector know that this number has been verified. -
I 6 Q And'by the time you left.your employment at Comanche 7
Peak was this marking system still in effect?
- 8 A I believe it was, i
9 MR. GRIFFIN:
? .
Do you -have any questions?-
10 .
MR. IPPOLITO: My background is not materials.
11 I have some knowledge about materials.
12
- And when we talk about the number that's stamped on
~
13 the material, it is my understanding that that number 14 represents the pour of the materials. That means they can go 2
H5 back and trace what materials were-put into that -- into the 16 4; oven, you know, to mix up that steel and to pour it out.
17 THE WITNESS: Yes.
18 i
MR. IPPOLITO: So what we have with numbers --
19 I hope you understand that it could be the same steel with 20 these numbers: they made a pot yesterday, and they made a 21 pot today; so the numbers, while they're different, they ,
22 may still be the same steel.
23 i
That's the only thing I wanted to say to you.
24 Did you know that?
26 THE WITNESS: They may_be,.but if it were', if i
i I
_._ . u __ _
. . . . . . . . , , ~ , . . , , , _ , , - - . _ , _ _ - _ , , , . . _ . . _ . , . , , . . . , , . . . . . _ . , ,, -. . . . , , , _ . . . .
J 4
, _ _ . . ~ _ , . . . , ~ . - ~ _ . . , , . , , , . . . . _ . _ ,
. t; . '
34 s
1 everything in it was for Class-1, then why wouldn't every-2 4
thing on the site be called Class-1 material?
3 That would have made it much simpler for all of 4
us if everything was Class-1. '
5 MR. IPPOLITO: It.could be that the melts !
i 6
signified by that number was a specific different melt than 7
the others; I would quess Class-1 is probably a different 8
melt. ,
9 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't know.
- gard MR. GRIFFIN
- I think we're digressing here a bit,
- .N 11 AV- 1 but your understanding is the same as mine.
.yq9'\ U BY MR. GRIFFIN:
,g " g\\ Q Let's move on to your -- you made allegations here i
CA 14 concerning a September 2nd, 1982 NCR you wrote on piping M
that was out of round, egg-shaped; can you tell us about 56 that?
U A Yt s '.
I was called to the pipe fabricating shop, which 8
is on the other end; --
20 MR. IPPOLITO: This is a di forent shop?-
21 THE WITNESS: This is a different shoo.
22 MR. IPPOLITO: This is the pipe fabrication shop?
23 4 THE WITNESS: Yes.
24 To -- they were cutting some' pipe for, I believe it 25 a was for.four different ITT Grinell spools; thev.were' going to-
+ ]
I
. l
. . , , y - -w . -- -t.+,--- "A
-'I *~ ~ " " **~ ~"#'"" ~
o 'o 35 1
do some -- they were ITTs, they came in as ITT spools, and 2
they were going to change them over to -- they were going to 3 put in Brown & Root spools- pieces of pipe?
4 MR. IPPOLITO: Right.
5 THE WITNESS: When I got there to witness the .
6 heat numbers on there and witness the cutting and everything, 7 then I saw the pipe was really badly out of round.
8 So I measured it. It was -inch out of round.
~
9 The whole length, the whole spool was out; everything.
10 They had already--they had cut two other pieces 11 earlier in the day, and two other inspectors had signed for u those pieces; but they were still in the fab shop.
f 13 Then the whole length, I think it was about a 14 40-foot length of pipe, and the whole thing was out of 15 round.
16 So when I said that, you know, we could not use 17 that pipe -- and the thing is, they needed that; because 18 that was the only pipe that we had of that particular grade 19 on-site.
20 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
1 21 Q This nas on the quality system?
4 22 A Yes.
23 And it was to go -- so they called craft, my 24 shift supervisor --
~ '
25 Q Did you NCR and put a hold tag on it?
.__ 1 ._.-_ . _ . . . . . . ~ . . _ _
. . . _ _ , . . , . . . . . _ . . , .- .- _ , ~.r . . - , , , , , -
36 1
1 A Yes, I did.
~
2 Okay.
. Q
- 3 I notice in your affidavit you identify the I
4 hold tag number as 40-15-S; is that correct?
5 A 40-15-S.
6 Q Okay. '
1 7
Go ahead, please?
8 A Anyway,.I put hold tags on that hipe, and identified 9 it'on the NCR.
j
~
10
, And two pieces were -- one was in the ncrth laydown 11 yard and o'ne was off the turbir.a deck; and I had to go find 12 them; put the hold tags on there, 13 In fact, I was training a girl at that time --
14 Mary -- and she went with me.
4 U5 Q How did you determine -- what record did you go to 1
16 i
to find out where these pieces had gone? '
17 A
, Well, they still had the craftsmen still working-is all the MRSs in their hands, material requisitions that they 19 were cut from.
h El And they said this one is, you'know, this one is 21 .
up'- 'they gave me the area'where it.was. I 22 Q Were you able to locate them and put a hold tag.
c El on? l 24' A Um-huh. I A
l El And, anyway, they called the night shift supervisor,
' l 1
.. a. ~
37 4
1 1
and then, Jim Reagan, my supervisor, and Sam Vail came up 2
there; and everybody looked at it and everybody said, you 3 know, how could a pipe get out like that? And so everybody
- 4 was aware of it on my shift of what it was. And I had no 5 problem about'that.
8 But then later on'I was called back to the office.
7
] I was still on night shift. And when I first came in, they 8
. said Al Pononi wanted to see me.
5 9
Q Let me break in here for a moment:
10 When Q-material is received on-site, is it not 11 accepted by QC inspectors?
U A Yes, it is.
1 13 Q And isn't paper created at that point showing --
14 A Yes.
2 Q And doesn't that paper travel with that pipe?
16 is Well, it does and it doesn't.
17 It comes in on an MR. See, they have -- you have s 18 books like this of an MR, which refers to a certain receiving 19 inspection report, you know; on that receiving inspection 20 report you.may get 40 feet of that pipe.
21 But when we go to cut.it, because we have such a 22 book, you just grab the first sheet number we come to with 23 that heat number. It may not be that RIR.
24 But we find that heat number and we just use that 25 MR to fill the requisition. And you may, if you went back m+ 4 e
s
} .
38 1
through the MILS, Manufacturers' Item List that were made up 2
1 in the fab shopc, then you might find heat number 40N6498; 3
if you had that and could run it in a computer, you might 4
find that we had -- we showed we installed 997 square feet
- 5 of it, when, actually, of that particular heat number on j 6 that particular RIR all we got was 20 or 40 feet of it.
7 Okay.
Q 8
A So, really...
.i 9
Q So would this method you used of taking what you 10 ;
found with that heat number, was that in accordance with 11 procedure?
U A Well, it wasn't against it.
13 Q
i As long as the heat number was correct, you all-felt
- 14 like you were in accordance or within procedure?
1 E A Right.
16 Q Okay.
17 a
Tell me about Mr. Pononi? '
18 A
He said that he wanted me to rewrite my NCR because j 8 he didn't understand it.
8 And I told him that my NCR was written -- he wanted 21 me to take off t,he ITT spools and the drawing numbers that 21 I had separated it to, and the piece numbers.
8 l I had put down, like, the drawing number, the ITT iM i.
spool, and the piece that we had cut of it.
25 1 And he said that he did not want that on there,
._ ._ .- . - - - - . . - - - - e
e 39 1
that that just muddled up the NCR.*
2 And I told him that that -- in order for you to be 3
able to find those pieces and know what they were, you had to 4
have all that information.
5 Bu_t he kept on at me and told me that I had 6 to do it.
t 7
t So finally I sat down and I wrote it, and I wrote 8 it against the heat number.
9 Okay.
Q At the time he was telling you to do this, 10 what did you believe his reasoning was for asking you,to 11 delete the specifics on your NCR7 U A Really, I thought he'was dumb!
13 I really thought he ,iust didn't understand ghat was ,
14 going.on.
15 Q Did he make any statements to indicate what his 16 thinking was? '
17 A He told me he didn't understand, he just'couldn't 18 1
understand the NCR that I had written.
18 And I kept telling him that it was necessary to 20 have the drawing and t.se ITT spool number and the piece 21 number on there.
22 And he kept telling me that it messed it up, he 23 couldn't understand it.
24 Q So you eventually followed his directions and you 25 removed this information?
y w --~ ri,, ,y-- . -v.-.-w-.. - -_ - -.-e- , . - - - , - . -
s l .
, 40
. 1 A Um-huh.
2 And so, then I believe it was on disposition to it 3
that was made by the engineers, was that that particular 4
heat number was to be picked up and taken to the structural 5 steel fab shop and used as hanger material.
i 6
Well, then, later on I had reason to look up that 7
NCR and see what happened to it; because I found that piece 8
CT pump system, that piece 38 that I had written up.
9 Q Is that a quality, a safety system?
10 A Yuh, that's right.
11 Right there coming off the pool.
G MR. IPPOLITO:
Excuse me.
D Do you recall the number of the NCR?
14 THE WITNESS: I believe I found it, yes, sir; ul I believe it's in here.
16 (Pause) 17 Oh, isn't it in here?
18 i
MR. IPPOLITO: I don't remember having seen it.
4' 19 THE WITNESS: Well, I have that NCR number. I 20 didn't bring it. I have a little slip of paper.
21 I have it and another NCR that was written on ,
Mt the same day by another inspector.
23 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
24 Q Okay. Will you get those to us?
.3 .0 Mi A Oh, yes.
i
, . ,%ww w . . .w ww $ m ,* *4 v e- " emO +e* W* ' ,***M** '# * ' " " ^ ~
e >
.~- _ _ _ _ .__ _ . __ _ _ _ - _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
., ., ^ .
41 1
I'm sorry, I thought, I mean...
2 Q That's all right.
3 MR. IPPOLITO: Would one of you two make a note of 4
that? -- the NCR number?
5 e
MR. GRIFFIN: Because that would really help us, 6 you know.
7 THE WITNESS: Well, if you pull the cackage, 8
CTlFB -- let's see -- CTlFB14, okay, Piece 38, well, there 9
was also a problem with that -- I guess I better get to that i 10 later.
11 Anyway, when I went back to the NCR, it had been --
12 it was on Rev.-5, it had been revv'd four times after I 13 saw it by the engineers.
14 And by then it didn't say anything in the world M
like what I had started out with. But the copies should be is or are available in the vault -- should be a copy of the 17 original rev.
18
, MR. IPPOLITO: The original rev?
19 I didn't realize, but what you are telling me:
20 you can revise an NCR numerous times?
21 THE WITNESS: They do. ',They do; yes.
E MR. IPPOLITO: I didn't know that.
23 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
24
.. Q To disposition them;'right?
25 A Yes.
42 f
1 What they had done was they -- when they dispositio r 2
an NCR, to use that pipe to the fab shop and use it for 3
hanger material -- then it turned up.in the TC system.
4 And another inspector wrote it up.
5 So they had revised it to where they used it anyway, 6
because they already had it welded in. And I remember that 7
system, because it took two weeks to get that welded in.
8 They couldn't get the pipe to fit.
9 And the reason they couldn't get the pipe to fit to is because it was like this (indicating)!
11 It was out of round.
U Q Okay.
13 Will the CT number and will the NCR number that 14 you will provide us, Will this give us what we need to go 15 and locate --
16 g l 7,,,
4
' 17 Q -- locate not only the p'iece but where it's 18 installed?
i 19 A Yes.
2D Q Do you have'every reason to believe that it's 21 still on-site?
22 A Yes, sir, it still is.
Last time I was there it j was.
- g. IA 8' Q
A
.nd 1... . 111 .gg..h ,.d?
Well, it's kind of round now; but what they did, is l
J l l
1
- l
'43 1
. they issued -- there's an RCS issued -- you got to get this 2
whole package; because there's an RCS issued, and what they 3
did was they buttered it. They buttered it. I think it was 4
starting at the center of the weld, they buttered just like 5
lk-inch all the way around because of~ minimum wall violation.
6 And it's buttered almost all the way around the 7
pipe. 1 -inches all the way around.
8 Do you understand " buttering'?
8 MR. IPPOLITO: I know what. buttering is.
10 THE WITNESS: Yuh, okay.
11 MR. IPPOLITO: But it's hard for me to understand U2
-- well, I guess what you're.saying is it looked like it was -
13 buttered all the way around?
14 If they were going to make it round, obviously, M
it had more material on the -- on one ride than on'the 16 other sides, because that would then make it round?
17 THE WITNESS: Well, okay -- well, now, what I have 18 JhSkj seen done, and I didn't see this done -- well, I don't know.
Ab' 8 But somehow that pipe was half an inch out of round.
20 I had a night shift supervisor up there from craft, I had my 21 supervisor, my lead man, and everybody .up there; and they all 22 checked me to be sure about that pipe.
23 And they all concurred that, yes, that pipe is.in 24 bad shape. '
25 Now, somehow that pipe ended'up down there and it's
-. _ _ _ . . . . _ . . _ . . . . _ _ _ . . . . . _ _ . . . . _ . . _ _ _ . _ .. - ~ ._.. . - _ _ - .
44 1
more or less round.
2 MR. IPPOLITO: Okay.
3 THE WITNESS: And what I've seen done is they 4
have some kind of a T-jack, like this (indicating) and they 5
would apply heat and keep going like that (indicating) until 6
they would get the pipe more rounded.
7 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
8 Q Is there a procedure that allows them to do this?
9 A No.
10 But what I saw them do it on was stuff that was 11 ~
not ASME stuff.
U Q I see in your affidavit here you say: I have 13 knowledge about cases where craft received out of round j 14 piping and pulled it so as to achieve roundness.
U Tell me about this?
16 A
That was when I was working in the pipe shop, I've 17 seen them do that. And I've seen them do that out in the 18 field.
- 19 When I would see them doing it, I would go up to 8
see what it was they had. And they were always working on H
Class-5 or 6, something like that,_4, 5, or 6; so back then l
22 we were just -- it was Class 1, 2, or 3; and 4, 5, and 6 they l
didn't. pay any attention to. !
24 Q Okay. But in your affidavit here you refer to 25 stainless steel?
i I
1
~-, - - - - - - - - ~
- i
^
45 1
A No, the one that I'm talking -- where I'm referring 2
to the stainless steel, that was stainless steel that went' 3
into the CT line. That was stainless steel that I wrote 4
up.
5 Q And you are saying stainless steel pipe was the 6
one that was buttered?
7 A I know it was buttered; I signed it off.
8 Q Okay.
8 I went down there when they put the welding,on it.
10 And I measured it. And it measured about 1 or 1% inches 11 showing that they had welded that far; and then they took U
a grinder and they ground it down smooth and everything so 13 it blended in with the pipe and looked just like the pipe.
14 And you would have to do an etch to find it.
15 Q How long a piece of pipe was this?
- 16 A
I think we're talking about 12-inch pipe.
17 MR. IPPdLITO: I believe you mean length?
18 THE WITNESS: Length?
18 MR. IPPOLITO: 12-inches in diameter. -
E How long?
21 THE WITNESS: 4h foot, something like that. '
E BY MR. GRIFFIN:
23 Q
It sounds like an awful lot of work to heat and make .
24 g,
.o it round and then butter it off -- isn't that an excessive amount o'f work to make just one pipe fit?
. t
- 1 c
. '. m 46 l' Did you ever hear anyone give an explanation as to 2 why they wanted to salvage this?
3 A It was the only material that they had on the site 4 that could go in there.
5 Q Is all this work simpler than just getting another 6 spool?
hk
[.@ 7 A I wouldn't think so.
8 But I know that it was Piece 38. And I know, too,
$bk ' 9 that if you'll go back and look at the package, when you get 10 to -- there's. a CMC which also will be able to give you the 11 number on -- I didn't give it here.
U The CMC was 123, -- I believe it goes up to 5 -- I 13 in CMC 3 which is what we had then, it was called Piece 38.
14 CMC Rev 3 was not in the package, you couldn't 15 find it, where it referred to it as Piece 38.
16 Now, on the drawing and everywhere it's called 17 Piece 48.
18 Q Go somewhere during the revisions they dropped a 19 piece number, and then in later editions they added another 20 piece number?
21 A It became, instead of Piece 38, it became Piece 48.
22 But you have to have Rev.-3 to know that it was 2
Piece 38 on Rev.-3, and then Piece 48 on Rev.-4; because if 24 you don't have 3, and you didn't know what happened, you're 25 not even going to know anything happened,
~- .-
~
z ~ - - ~ ~ -' '
. 47 1
MR. IPPOLITO: Just so I understand: do you 2
understand the paper control system that they are required 3
to save all -- what you call a CMC and all revisions?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, but I understand a lot of 5 stuff gets lost.
6 MR. IPPOLITO: But they're supposed to?
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. They're supposed to.
8 MR. IPPOLITO: So in other words, --
Revision 5,
~
9 they don't throw away -- they're not supposed to throw away 10 Revisions 4 through 17 11 THE WITNESS: Right.
Et MR. IPPOLITO: They are supposed to have 1, 2, 3, 13 4, 5?
14 THE WITNESS: That's right.
2 They're supposed to be in the package.
16 But what I had was the final package that was 17 going for N5; and that's what I was looking at. And the CMC i
18 Rev.-3 was not in there; because this was just before I was i 19
' leaving, and I wanted to get this information. I wanted to 20 see what had happened. '
21 Because on this particular one, when I kept going 22 back and pulling it, when I found that down there in'the field, 23 installed -- Piece 38 -- the one that I had rejected -- and 24 saw the buttering on it, then I went up there to' Bill Darby R ~ l 25 in Document Control, and I said, " Bill, I want to see !
l
- 3. e . g, y , ce w + = -,w h e- * '4Wf'***'
g * *'**T*N,.85W#**"' ***#M"
~ * '
s 48 1
the package on so-and-so."
2
. And he said, "Oh, I know about that. We got that 3
one pulled and in a special file. That one'is a bad one,"
4 you know.
t 5 And I said, "I know it's a bad one." I said, -
6
- Did you know there's an NCR on that, that I wrote, and it's 7
down there in the system?"
8 He said, "Yuh, I know it; that's why we got it in 8 i a special file."
10 And so I kept going back about it.
11 And so finally Bill came to me one night and he 12 said, " Sue, if you value your job, you better be quiet about 13 this. Benepzen has already gotten mad about your pursuing 14 4
this on this piece of piper and he said'you'd better watch 15 your step around here."
16 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
l~
Q Is Darby still on site?
- 18 A Yes, Bill Darby is still there.
18 Q ,
And Benepz?n?
so
, A Greg Benepzen.
21 Q .
Did Darby indicate where this file was?
22 1 A Yes, he showed it to me. He gave it to me.
4 In fact ,
I had it.
! 24 p..
And then I went in to where.there were copies of 5 E i
the NCRs in another room. See, this is night shift, and s
f 1
. - . ....r. .,_-.g...w
- 4e=.y. v- ~.=w.+-- -a
i:
49 j
i there wasn't that much supervision, so I could do things then.
4 3 And I went in to look for the'NCR to see what had happened to it.
l And there was it, it was Rev.-5 of an-NCR that I hadn't
! seen since it was Rev.-l and was to be sent 6
- to the iron fab shop.
7
' And there's another piece that ended up that I 8
wrote up on that NCR'that's'in the yard tunnel; and I'll 3
- have to hunt the number of that. But I believe it's in 4
ArlYB003.
4 I believe that's the number that it's in.
11 '
And that's two pieces that I specifically numbered
- Ut A and used on that first NCR.
13 Now, looking back, I think the reason they wanted 14 me to change that was because -- no, that'sn'ot the one; no 2
(indicating document).
- 16 MR. IPPOLITO
- Let me ask you a question -- talking i
i about this buttering: if we can't find this missing Rev.-3, 1
18 '
I okay, is it possible by tracking some other paperwork, like 19 I
the work authorization -- there may have been a work 4
20 1
authorization for the welder to make it--the butter?
i !
21 "
THE WITNESS: i
! 22 There's an- RPS that's with the . !
I.
package.
4 4- 23 MR. IPPOLITO: Oh, it._should be in the package?
24 1 ."
1 .' THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, the.RPS.
3 i i
MR. IPPOLITO: And that thing should say, buttering, I
1
.-n.~~~a -- v~--*~~*- -
~ ~ ~ * '
. .. . . . - . . - - ~. --- -- - - -" * * ~ ~
50 I
or something?
2 3
THE WITNESS: Yes.
3 i
It's up at.the top -- let me show you what it will 4
look like. b 5
okay, it's right up here (indicating),-it will !
6 i
give you -- it gives you the instructions and how much they 7
1 want it buttered, how far around.
8 okay, then down here is the hold' point that shows 8
you the welds that I had to sign off on.
i 10 I signed that off.
t 11 No, not this one, this is just'one to give you an
- 12 i
idea what it's like. _
13 okay.
14 I signed it off, and I wrote down here, how much,
[ is
- - how far around the pipe they went; and how far back they 16 t- welded.
I measured it and then I wrote that down up here 17 4 (indicating).
1 18 The weld tech had put up here (indicating) what I
18 i
they wanted; and I wrote down here (indicating),what they 8
had; and then I signed here (indicating) yes, that's what's 21 .
there.
22 And that's when I got that, that's when I started 4
j 23 ;
looking; and that's when I started to pursue this particular !
i
! 24 NCR !
and kept watching it to see what was_ happening with it.
26 MR. GRIFFIN:
This document we're using is an example i e
_-~__--____u-2__
_ _ . . _ . _ _ . . _ _ .. _ . ~. ._ _ .
' l* '% .
- -- - -~ '
f 51 i
1 of a Repair Process Sheet, just as an example; this isn't 2
the specific document that she's referring to.
3 i- BY MR. GRIFFIN:
4 t Q So you think the CMC and the NCR and CT number we 5
have will be in that paperwork?
i 6 A Yes, sir. I think with the drawing number - you
- 7 want the whole package -- and,the RPS will be in there, 8
- the NCR. number should be in* there; and then go look for the.
9 NCR; and then request the original revision -- because they i 10 won't have them out there for.you,
's 11 They'll on.ly have the last one.
- 12
? And if you'll request all the revisions, when you 13 get an NCR on anything that's been-revv'd, it would be.a good 14 idea, particularly if it's gone past Rev.-1, to ask, "I want ,
15 the rest of the revs. " '
16 Because if they've been revised by engineers, 17 they probably don't say what the inspector saw when he was 18
- there. ~
l 19 Or that's been my experience.
(. 20 MR. IPPOLITO:
Let me ask you a question:
21 You say you were the QC inspector that measured 22 4
j the weld and all that?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
. 24 -
MR. IPPOLITO: Is the buttering on that particular
- i 25 pipe, was that according to' procedure?-
l <
_,_,G. . -, -e .i
~ ~ - ~ - ' ~ - ~ ~ ~ " * * ' ' ~ ' ^ ~ ~ ' " ~
s 52 1
THE WITNESS: -Yes, sir.
2 And I had an RPS that was signed by ANI; they 3
concurred with it.
4 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
5
, Q Do you know how the rest of this same spool was 6 used?-
7 A No, I don't. I just know where two pieces of it 8 went.
9 I know one of them went in this CT line, and I know 10 another one went in the line in the yard tunnel.
11 Q Is there any way we can identify them that you can 12 think of?
13 A I can give you the numbers, the package numbers.
14 Q Okay. -
M A And if you'll get the original NCR that I wrote is for those package numbers and follow the ITT spool And heat 17 number, and then be.sure and watch the CMCs to watch them 18 change that number on you, then you'll find that they're 19 in there.
20 Q Is there any reason to believe that the change of 21 Piece 38 to 48 was anything other than just,a typographical 22 error?
- 3 A Well, I think it was in'tentional.
24
,j, Q Did anybody ever indicate to you that the change 25 was intentional?
- c. *.. --
53 1
A I*think'bdcause I was told to let it alone, and --
2 Q Who told you this? -
3 A Bill Darby told me. He said, let it alone that he 4
had Greg Benepzen, and Greg Benepzen was a supervisor 5
discussing me and that, piece of pipe; and if I had anything 6
more to say about that piece of pipe, I was going to be in I
trouble.
8 Q Were you actually threatened by anybody?.
I A No.
10 7 was just warned by Bill.
11 Q
Do you think Darby would remember this inciden.t?
U A
I think Darby will,.but I doubt that Darby will ~
13 cooperate with you at all..
14 Q Okay. Let's move on to the --
E A
In fact, I know Ralph, his brother, and Bill, bothi* .
16 will remember this incident.
MR. IPPOLITO: You know, on that.same subject, 18 you have a small sentence here that says, "This incident 19 was not isolated." I mean, you give an example, and then you 20 say:
this incident was not isolated.
21 Can you add any more, any other -- obviously, we're 8
trying to identify all that we can here,'if,they exist?'
THE WITNESS: Okay. Well, what I meant was this 24 incident of a QC inspector being called down and told to a...
N 1
.l
.--~~.-.- -
- - . - ~ ~ ~ - - ~ ~ - - - --
'b
s, 54 4
1 change their NCRs and then of engineering taking our NCRs 2
and changing them; it's not an isolated instance.
3 MR.'IPPOLITO: Has it happened to you beyond what 4 you've recorded here?
5 THE WITNESS: That's the only one that I have 6
gone down and changed the wording on at all.
7 And I gave them such a hassle that they wouldn't 8
ask me any more; I guess if they wanted to change mine,.they'd 9
change them themselves.
10 MR. IPPOLITO: I don't want to put words in your 11 -
mouth: is the rest just hearsay on your part?
U
,THE WITNESS: No, sir. It's for real.
13 I know Ralph Darby was called down -- he was in 14 Review -- and Ralph Darby was called down about the same time 15 that this happened, just before this happened to me.
4 16 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
17 Q But you heard of that from scme other people, did 18 you not?
19 A I heard about this from Ralph, he called me.
20 He was really upset.
. 21 He had been called down _there and.they had made him -
22 rewrite an NCR 3 times because they didn't want it to say 23 what's actually there.
24
.x. ,
And Ralph was really upset. And they had threatened J.5 25 him.
l 4
- . . = . * . . - -, _ _ -- ee+w e
.=m- --e e
..w.r. e. ...-- -o w s. =e..- .-n 1 a,
l 55 1
Q Threatened him in which way?
2 A i
Threaten ed hhn kdth that he could hit the gate; he
- 3 1 could either change it or he could hit the gate. t
- 4 t And he was really upset.
5
} , Q Who was he arguing with?
6 A He was arguing with Pinoni and Seavers.
's eR,C 7
Q All right. Let's move on.
~
8 The next thing in your affidavit is you address a 9
{
i problem on site regarding the upgrading of the code class 10 material; would you tell us about that?
11 A Okay. Well, when I went in to.the structural i
ut 1
steel fab shop, I had a piece of material that was a Class-2.
- 13 I
They wanted to use it in a Class-1 assembly. ,
14 I said, "You can't,.that's Class-2."
3 "Oh, no, that's been upgraded by IM."
k 16 I said, "IM?
What in the world is an IM?"
), 17 k And they said, " Interoffice l memo. " .
i
- t. 18
- I started laughing.
N Because I thought they were pulling my 1eg,
~
you 4 20 know; I thought, it's just the guys giving me a hard' time.
21 4 And they said, "No, it really is; there's inter-Zt office memos."
s 25 And I said, "Well, let's see?"
l
- 24 I
, So I go in there. They go in, look:through their w
El book, and they find -- and a lot of'the interoffice memors are I
l
. _ . . . _, .-~ -c------
.,- , . - - , , , , , , , , - - ~ .-..-., , ----- ~ ~.... ,, n. ....,,,,,.,,.-.-,,,,.,,,.-n,., . . - , ~ , , , , .
15 6 1
tacked up on the wall, with numbers, upgrading material. '
2 And they stood there till they found that-heat number, and 3
it would be upgraded to -- you can use this as a Class-1, 4 you know. And it was signed by an engineer.
5 But upgrading by IM, there's nothing in -- there's 6 no --
7 Q Did the pedigree of this material, did it still 8 identify it as a Class-2 or Class-3? How did the IM change 8
the paper that' traveled with the material?
10 A There was nothing that traveled with this material.
11 This was an IM.
U Q Just a piece of material with a hea,t number on it?
U A A piece of material with a heat number and the i
14 craftsmen would say, "Oh, that's been upgraded by IM."
15 And you'd go look up the IM, and I would take -- on 16 the bottom of the MIL, where we put how many pieces, what 17 size and what the heat number was -- and I would asterisk 18 that and put up here (indicating) " material upgraded per 19 IM" and then put the IM number, 20 Q okay.
21 You said earlier, I believe, if I understood yeu 22 correctly, that the heat numbers indicate heat class material?
23 A That's right.
24 Q. So did they change the heat number or did they 3
just say that this heat number is now a different class?
A .
57 1
A This heat number has now been upgraded.
2 Q Do you know of any procedure or procedures that 3
engineers used that allowed them to do this?
4 No, sir, and I don't know of any traceability on A
5 those IM's, either. I don't know what happens to them.
J
, 6 They go in the trash cans.
7 Q Do you know of a central repository where all-
'8 j
IMs f,or upgrading material are kept?
i
! 9 A No.
10 7
Q Do you know where we can go on site and find these 11 ~
IMs used for this purpose?
t2 A Yes, sir, you-can go to the iron fab shop and 13 l tell the foreman or the -- whoever the goldhat is up there--
14 that you want to see the IMs. And they can show them to 15 you.
16 Q And they plainly state that such and such a heat 17 number'has been upgraded?
18 A Yes.
19 g' And you know of no procedure in the fab shop that 20 allows that?
21 A Not by IM, no, sir.
j 22
! Q Is there a system at Comanche Peak-in the fab shop 23 that allows upgrading? >
! 24
, A It can be upgraded by engineers.
But the thing, 25 my problem with an IM is it has no traceability; you don't
,g - ** =9 e=*eegab*^
- .me- -** * *'****~*v**"' '
o '.
. ~~ =
58 1
know -- there's nothing you can go back to at some later 2
date that tells you that -- if you pull the MIL on everythine ,
3 and I had not put the note on there, then you'd say, well, 4
i hey, she's used a Class-2 on this container here that calls 5
for a 1 - material.
6 Q Um-huh.
7 A Then you say, why did she do that?
8 I can't tell you why. I can't tell you; but 9
because I put that note down there, " upgraded per IM," --
10 that that's why I did it.
11 So at a later date I don't think you're going to l U !
be able to find it as a Class 1 or Class 2.
13 MR. IPPOLITO: You kept saying " fabrication shop" --
14 any fabrication shop?
15 THE WITNESS: Iron fab. ,
16 MR. IPPOLITO: If I were to go to the iron fab 17 shop and say I want to see your TMs's
- 18 THE WITNESS: Yes.
19 And in fact, if you go in there - ,back into the 20 office -- and look on the walls before you walk out on the 21 shop, there's two doors. Okay.
And look on the wall for 3
the IMs tacked up there on the walls. O,r they were 23 when I was there.
24 -
And I tried to find out where the IMs, what 2
happens after; and nobody could tell me.
~
. ~ . ~ . . . . - - . ..
l___..-__--
59' 1
. -t Because I thought an IM was a. joke, interoffice 2
memos to upgrade material.
3 Q Okay. In your affidavit here you refer to the i 4 4 stamping of pipe with a number on the plate that incorrectly ;
( 5 identifies the type of material. What's your concern about 6 :
that?
7 A
Okay, that was what I told you about earlier, I: 8 was that --
t 9
,Q About.the cutting of pieces ~and the stamping?
. 10 A Yes.
j.
- - 11 Q okay, we've heard that.
12
.j .. A I think I got out of sequence on-'it.
1 13 Q You also make a statement: I once saw a document 14 i that said there are 70,000 IMs that upgraded material for' 15 .
pipe fabrication shop alone.
16 4 Is this true?
17 l A 4, That should be " iron fab shop".
j 18 Q
! What kind of document was this?
I, 18 A
It was just an IM, which said~70,000.
- j. 20 Q Okay.
i r
And you,took this to mean'that there must i 21 have been --
22 A
1 well, I knew that there were at lease 70,000 of l 23 \
i them, 24 i Q
l . ' .. , But not all IMs have to do with upgrading of 25 material, do they?
4
...-a gm q,ema ne -. = $. 4 = ad *4In - N ,
' " J J'% T" * * * ^ i'*'* e
60 1
A As far as I know, they do.
2 Q But IMs are used for other purposes, other than jus t 3 upgrading materials?
4 A They may do it, but I don't know. The only IMs 5
that I have ever seen were those in the iron fab shop; that
. gd5 was the first I had ever heard of them, the first time I V
% 7 had ever seen them.
j gd /\D 8 Q Okay. Well, I think we can run this one down.
)%h
--- 9 Okay, now, let's move into the instance that 10 involves in June 1983 in which you were approached by 11 Seaver, Woodard and Blixt; tell us about that?
U A Well, they came in, it was -- I was working night 13 shift, and they had decided to take my supervision, was 14 Jim Reagan, on nights, --
and they had decided to take our is night shift supervisor and put him on days; and put some of 16 the day shift supervisors and rotate them on nights, saying 17 that they were going to find out what went on on nights and 18 what went on on days.
19 So that was the first day that Mr. Reacan was on 20 days, and they had put Dwight Woodard to work that night 21 as our supervisor.
22 And when I got through, well, then Seavers and U
Blixt -- Seavers told me, "lllP, we have this special project 24 for you."
And he said, "We want you to go over, we've got 25 approxiamtely, somewhere, 112 - 142" -- he said 142 at one w
~*w =
- + , , g =w -
.,,-e 4 -= +- po.-eu. - w som e ven.p--
61 1
point and then he come back and said 112 -- so I really 2
don't know how many there ended up being; but it was a lot.
3 Q A lot of?
4 A
Travellers, over in the millwright shop on the 5
stainless steel liner.
6 Q And this is stainless steel liner plates for the 7
spent fuel pool?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Okay.
10 A
That we are -- that the inspectors for some reason 11 neglected to sign off on.
U And I said, "Well, how can I sign them off when I" 13 didn't do it?"
14 Q QC Inspectors?
15
. A Seavers was the superintendent.
16 Q
Okay, but QC inspectors were required to sign off 17 on these hold points? '
- 18 A Yes,'th,e ones that did it. They were required to.
19 Q And they had neglected to?
- 20 A Yuh, they were not signed off. i I
21 )
Q Okay. .
22 Q So he said -- I said, "How can I do it?" :
%3 I
And he said, "Well, they got a little chit," which !
24
\
was a little piece of paper about like th,is little piece of !
25 paper right here (indicating); white; "and if they'd fit un one
,y, ,
- up *- - * * * '
'"'*W"
- c. .
62 1
and then it was sigord by some inspector." Some of them were 2
'78 - '79. Well, '70, that was before I came.
3 But there was one inspector that was on those 4
chits, Larry Wilkerson, and he's still out there. He's 5
left a couple of times to go other places but has come.back.
6 So I said, when I saw what they had, I said, 7
"Well, call Larry, because I don't believe that's what this 8
is for."
9 I had anywhere from six to eight hold points 10 to sign off. -
11 And over here at the side, it said under the rods U
being drawn, it said, " fit-1, fit-2, fit-3, fit-4" --
13 Q Six to eight on each of the travellers?
14 A Yes.
M Q Okay.
16 A
And, I said, "this doesn't make sense, because the 17 chit plainly says, fit-1."
And I said, "so it can't apply 18 to all the rest of these. It can only apply,to fit-up-No. 1."
19 And, in fact, on some of them it didn't even 20 show that they had drawn rods on all the fits; it just showed 21 they had drawn rods on part of them. .
22 And he said, " Don't worry about that. We've got 23 to have these in by -- ASME is going to take over the stainlear-24 steel liner, but -- non-ASME is going to take over -- but 3
they won't take the paperwork until it's all signed off, what i
t 63 l 1 ASME was supposed to do."
. i 2
And they wanted me to sign off all those so they 3
t could get them to ASME on Monday morning.
4
'Juul I kept telling, I said, "This could not be 5
what it's for, or it wouldn't specifically state fit-1."
6 i,
Q okay.
+
7
! They wanted you to sign these things off, put your 8 i initials --
8 !
f A My name.
10 Q Your name, and would that also require that you 11 date it?
U A
!j I dated it the day that I did it, that I signed it .
13 off.
t j l' ,
Q i Now, do I understand you're sayin'g you're signing
- 15 off on a hold point on something that the rest of the record 16 would have indicated it was installed. years earlier?
i 17 A
I The only thing ~that indicates it was installed years earlier is that one little piece of paper; that's it.
8 Q The chit indicates it was installed earlier, but
- 20
( when --
f
- 21 MR. IPPOLITO
- Excuse me.. .
22 Travellers not. dated? ,
1 E l
THE WITNESS: No, sir.
I 24 i . The traveller is dated, but the date that I put on 1 it, that is not the date that the work was done.
I l
I l
-- 5
64 1 I kept telling them that the chit was for fit-1, 2 and Billie Catness (phonetic) and I, we got the drawings, 3 and put them up on the wall there in the mi11 wright shop; 4 and went over to it.
5 And what fit-on was where the two pipes were 6 together, and they put a backing strip here; welded it; that 7 was fit 1.
8 But what they did was weld them all out and then 9 took a crane and lifted them and dropped them down into the 10 liner; because once they were in the liner you couldn't 11 get to the back of them and do that weld.
12 Then they went around to the front and they made 13 those welds, down, the corner, the horizontal weld, and 14 all that.
15 That's what I was signing off for!
16 A bunch of welds that I had no documentation 17 telling me had been done. All I had was a chit.
18 And I kept telling them that I couldn't sign it 18 off, not to do it.
20 And so then they got Frod Evans and sent him over 21 there and --
22 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
23 Q Is this another QC inspector?
24 A
.. Another QC inspector.
25 And they said, they told -- I got up there and I
.. s -
e 65 i
1 left. I went out the back.
4 2
1 Anyway, well, I got really upset about it, because j 3 I had been haggling and haggling with them -- with Blixt
.i 4
and with Dwight, and told them that this is not what -- that i
5 I couldn't sign this stuff off.
- 6 So I left and went to the QC shack, and then I 1
j 7 called a friend of mine. And I told him, I said, "this is
! 8 not right; I know it's not right. And I told them it's not j 9 right."
10 q And so, anyway, I went back over there and they 11 had sent Fred Evans over to help me.
12
- Ch, what happened then is Dwight and Ted Blixt 13 came in and told me there in the QC shack, said, " h this 14 stuff has got to be done by Monday; and you'll stay here and is do it if it takes you all three days to do it. You will stay l 16 here until it gets done."
17 Then they sent Fred Evans over there to helo me 18 do it.
l 19 And I told Fred then, I said, " Fred, in order to 20 cover our asses -- because this is wrong -- the only thing 21 what I'm going to do is I'm going to askterisk these things, 22 and I'm going to put a note down here that I signed for a 23 I
chit; and theri I gave them a number, the page and the number."
i 24 Like, I had two -- some of them had two pages, some of them l 26 l had three.
66 1
BY MR. GRIFFIN:
2 Q Each traveller was, like, one or two pages?
3 A One or two pages.
4 And then a chit.
5 So what I did was I numbered, like, this was one, 6
page one of three, page two of three, and then I gave the 7
chit a number, three of three.
8 And then I referenced this down here (indicatino),
8 that way, so they had to keep that chit on there. Because M
I was just trying to cover myselt.
U 0 Okay.
U What did the. travelers look like when you received 13 them? Were they blank?
14 A No.
f Q What did they have written on them?
16 A
Okay, they had written on them, like this (indicat-U ing), and on this side right here (indicating), up here it 18 says, "the liner plate" and everything, up here (indicating) 8 and right in here (indicating) it's the little squares, little lines, kind of like this right here (indicating),
I and it says the fit, and then the. welder's signed out and 22 the rods that he signed out.
And then on this side over here, it's the QC hold 24
, point. And that's where I signed it.
25 Q Is this a QC checklist type of thing?
67 I
A Yes.
2 Q
Is there any way that you can direct us to where, 3
or can you tell us where these travellers would be now?
4 How can we find these travellers?
5 A
They turned them over to the non-ASME filer house.
8 Q And they were for the backing strios in the spent 7
fuel pool?
8 A
But what I signed off on was for the front row of 8
everything.
10 Q Okay. Go ahead with your story?
II A Well, a~nyway, we signed them off. And later on 12 Fred went over there and told everybody, said, "Well, I got 13 old she's over there raising hell; I got her busy and I'
we got it done."
But he didn't see anything wrong with it, what we 16 were doing.
And I don't think he even out the asterisks on 17 there or anything. He thought I was just -- he thought --
18 he said, "they told us to do it, the supervisors told us to U
do it; and just do what they tell you to do."
Q This is what Fred was saying?
21 A Yes.
Q In your affidavit you also indicate that you were told to sign these off, but you said you heard talk on site 24
.* the QC supervisors were threatening to have you fired 25 for signing off?
, , _ , _ _ . , , ,.g esNw*** # "* '
~
l
) 68 i
i 1 A Yes.
2 Q The supervisors found that you obviously signed
{ 3 something wrong and they were under the belief that it was 1
4 your responsibility? -
- 5 A .
I don't see how they.could have been, because 6
! the same ones that told me to do it were the same ones that 7
were in the meeting.
8 But they were going to let me take the fall.
i 8 Q Somebody down there was critizing you, is~that ;
10 ,
right? -
) 11 A
! Yuh, well, certainly.
4 1 U a Q Who were these people that were --
{ <
j 13 A I don't know who all they were. I really don't..
l'
{
l I know that they were my supervisors, and I know !
15
{ that except --
4 j 16 Q Which supervisor was that?
17 .
A At that time it was Seavers and Blixt and Woodard.
j 18 Q Who did they work under?
i 19 A Gordan Purdy. '
I 20
] Q In your affidavit you say the following Monday you
- 21 i heard QC supervisors threatened to have you. fired for signing 22 off on hold points.
23 t
1 Which QC supervisors are you referring to? '
1 24 j
A I don't know. That was rumor.
1 26 4
Q That was a rumor?
f i
e
- __ , ,,,....ee -..e.,.. . ~ ~ * * ~ " * * ' .
""***M*^ *~ ' _ _ * **._ __._._ __.__ _ _ _ ~
69 1 A That was just a rumor.
2 Q Well, if it wasn't the people that gave you the 3 directions, who --
4 A It would have had to have been, because they are 5
the only ones who go to those meetings, and they're the 6 only supervisors there are.
7 Q Okay.
8 Now, you said that Reagan intervened for you?
9 Who would he intervene with?
10 A Well, I guess with the -- with whoever it was.
11 Reagan, when he came back on -- they put him back U
on night shift, ,and the first thing he did was call me in the 13 office and ask me about it.
14 And I didn't want to tell him what had happened.
15 And he says, " Don't worry," he said, "tell me 16 what happened."
17 He'd been my supervisor for, you know, 2h-3 years.
18 He was a straight guy.
19 So I told him what had happened. And he said, M
" Well, don't worry about it. "
21 But I went to Fred and asked him, ," Fred, have you 22 heard anything that they threatened to get rid of you?"
23 And he said, "No. It's no big deal."
24
.. Q A,nd,in your affidavit you say, now the liners are 25 in the plant and there's no way of knowing, short of
~
. 70 1
dismantling the spent fuel pool and finding out if those 2
plates are free of problems. ,
3 Now, the chits, the travellers that you were 4
looking at, I believe you subsequently decided were not for i 5
the liners, themselves, but for the backing strips; is that i 6 r right?
7 A Right.
8 2
] Q Now, does your concern lie with the liner plate 9
4 or with the backing strips?
to A My concern was with the whole, with all the other 11 welds that I signed off, that I didn't see; and as far as I 3
3 know, nobody else did.
} 13 Q Now, you're saying when they discovered all this 4 14 signing off that you had done, had been for something other is 1
than what they thought it was -- L 16 1 A Um-huh.
17 i
Q -- did they continue to use these traveller 18 documents -- I mean, the documents containing your sign off ?
18
{ A I think --
so Q To represent some of these hold' points had been 21
- inspected or had been examined?
8 A I'm not for sure what they did.
23 What I heard is that they decided that then it had j 24
... been -- all of it had been NDE'd, it had been penetrant-tested, and it had been vacuum-boxed and passed that; and l
'l t
4
_ - - ---.4.. - - *
- a. ,
71 1 then it was okay.
2 Q So no NCRs were written, and you don't know what 3 happened to the travellers?
4 A No.
5 And at that point I knew not to pursue it any -
6 further, 7
Q The travellers and chits were attached?
8 A I attached the travellers to the chits, myself.
9 Q Who could I go and ask that could tell me where 10 these travellers are now?
11 A I don't know. You might ask the non-ASME side of U
the house; they are the ones that got them.
13 MR. IPPOLITO: The only reason why it would be 14 difficult to find these' particular travellers is because' they 15 were transferred from ASME to non-ASME shops is that correct?
16 But you would be able to track them had they stayed in 17 ASME; right? '
18
~ THE WITNESS: I should think if they got ASME 19 signatures on them, they should be in the vault, is where 20 they should be.
21 That part should be, because their part took off 22 after this.
23 I think what they were doing was the elevators 24*
and attachments, was what they were going to dot because E
non-ASME is seismict so it's still not BOP.
ee i
. l 72 1
BY MR. GRIFFIN:
2 Q Okay.
i 3
And there were no weld techs involved in anv of i
4 the inspections on the liner plate.or the backing strips, I 5
were there? It was all Q; right?
i 6
A It was all Q.
3 7
Q Okay.
8 Now, give me some advice based on your knowledge ,
, 8 as an inspectors if I went to somebody on the ASME side 10 now and I asked them to help me locate all travellers for I 11 the backing st'ips r to the liner plate in the spent fuel pool, U
.i wouldn't they be able to produce those?
1 13 As a group, wouldn't they be together?
14 A They should be.
j 15 Q Or would they be in packages that related to each -
16 of the plates in the spent fuel pool?
17 A
I don't see how it could be in the package for the 18 plate, or you'd have to have two separate file sheets.
J 19 j Q Okay, 20 A Because you're putting'two plates together.
21
. Q I see, right.
22 A I can tell you this: when you all come on site,
- 23 4
what's always happened before, is one, they call us in and 4
24 ,
told us that we were not to talk to you all; if we were 25 i
approached by the NRC, we were to tell the NRC that we had 1
,g,, ,, -
_..# _ y e, . pe %w are'* F**** *" S
,9* -
. I
- ' ~
73 1
an inspection we had to go on, or we had to go to our super-2 visor and talk to him, and takeyou to our supervisor.
3 We weren't supposed to talk to you all.
4 4
And also that when you come on site they know 5
t ahead of time when you're coming; they've always known ahead 6
of time.
7 Q
This is digressing just a minute, but about 6 or 8 8
months ago, did you hear from your fellow inspectors that 9
I the NRC was calling in a lot of QC inspectors and interviewing 10 them about freedom to inspect and were they allowed to 11
' report deficiencies?
1 U A Yes.
13 i
Q Did you hear anything about that?
14
< A. Yes, I did.
j 15 Q
1 I guess you were not one of the ones that --
j is A No, I've never been called in. Only one time.
17 Q
Did you ever ta3.k to any of the people who had been 18 questioned by the NRC?
19 A Yes.
20 Q
Some of your fellow inspectors were called in?
j 21 A
l I had a good friend that.was called in.
22 Most of them, you know, they didn't give you any 23 informations that's what they would always tell; because they 24 would come back and tell the bosses they didn't give you any 25 information.
4 9
_ e , .,
og w +Fe -
- 4
___'**e*****%_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ . ' _ _ _ _ _ _ _
74 I
"Well, I don't have any problem here, no problem 2
here." That's what they would say.
3 Q .It sounds like, without identifying your friend, 4
that your friend, is it safe to say, had information but he 5
refused to give it?
6 Or did he indicate that he thought they had I
freecom to inspect?
8 A They indicated they had not given any information no matter what. Because they were afraid.
0 Q Okay.
Let's move on to the next one here, it says , about C:!Cs , commodity modification cards on welds. Tell me about 13 that?
I' A
Okay, what I was talking about is they would want, I
like, you had a 3/16 weld, fillet weld --
16 Q Okay.
I A
-- okay, and they decided through stress analysis I8 or something that it should be a V inch..
I' Well, all they'd do is they'd just go up there and 20 they'd just put -- tch-tch-tch -- a quarter inch of weld 21 on there, you know? And that's all they did. '
22 And unless I misunderstood what was supposed to 23 happen, what's supposed to happen is they're sucoosed to put 24 a minimum amount of weld on there. You can't just go up there 25 ,
and put a quarter-inch weld on that thing.
,..y
- p. e < sog_ - _ p-p ee*
- DN
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ..-__._.____e_ _ _ _ _ . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
s 75 1
You've got to put more than that. You've got to 2
put --
3 Q Did you ever witness anything like this?
4 A Ch, yuh, all the time; because that's what we did 5
all the time.
6 on those walkdowns and those backfits, that's 7
what we were doing, is adding weld like that; the whole time.
8 Q And it's your understanding it's a violation?
8 I
A The VCD walkdowns,.that's what we did.
- 10 Q What is a VCD walkdown? '
11 A
Vender Certified Drawing, we'd make walkdowns on-U the vender certified drawings; we would measure the weld that 13 was on there and the weld that the engineers said they 14 wanted on there; and if it wasn't right, then we'd write it 15 up.
16 And they'd issue an RPS to go out there and put 17 a quarter-inch weld on it.
18 Q
- The addition of the weld material was done with 8
i engineering approval?
s A Yes.
21 Q
Don't the engineers have the authority to request 22 and have this happen within procedure?
23 l A j Well, the engineers have'the authority. I-just 24 l :, don't think it was right.
25 Q Well, we'll have to evaluate that.
I ec _ *wa *+m * * * -
. , --7**""' ~ " ' * * * * * * ^
76 1 A That's a concern of mine, I didn't think it was 2 right.
3 I see your concern.
Q 4
It would help -- could you identify the area or 5
the pipe where they have done this with the CMCs?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 If you go to the stuff that was in the VCD walkdowns ,
8 if you will go there and pull the documentation on,that, 9
you'll see where what we did, we went in and measured how 10 much weld was there. And we would write it in there, how 11 much weld was there.
U And then we would go back and they would repair 13 the weld; they'd have an RCS, a repair card to add that 14 quarter-inch weld on there, or whatever, put a half-inch 15 weld on there or 1/16; we would measure .
it again; and we 16 would write it down.
17
.Q And the CMCs were prepared by the engineers 18 specifying this was what was to be done? -- that there was 19 to be additional weld material added?
20 A Yes.
21 Q There are many of these, and if we looked at 22 the -- if we pulled these records, we'd have no trouble findin 23 an example?
24 A Right.
Q I'm asking now, are there numerous examples?
-~.-m- -~ -
--~~===~=~~ ~' * * * * * * * * ~ * * ~ ~
s j
77 i
A There are numerous examples -- I'm trying to think 2
on the CMCs -- I wouldn't worry about the CMCs; I'd get the 3
VCD walkdowns and look at those; because those tell the whole 4 story.
5 When we started out, they called them " red 6 packages". And we started out doing the program that way.
7 And then they said, well, that didn't work out; 8 .
so they called us back in and they set up another program 9
that they called VCD walkdowns.
10 And that one didn't quite go', so they set up 11 another one; and we did it again.
12 16 so we started the program over three times.
hb +A ,
y13 Q Okay.
(y' $9
-- 14 Another issue you raise in here is undocumented 15 weld repairs; would you tell me about that?
16 A Well, I wish I could give you an example, I could 17 give you a number or something.
18 Q Um-huh.
19 Anyway, these repairs were done without QC 20 inspection; craft would just go out and --
21 A Yuh.
U Q -- dig them out, repair them?
23 A Okay -- it's several times I've been over this 24 today, so I forget where I've been.'
25 Q Okay.
i
.,m.- .. - . . .
- ~ . - . 4-. -a. - - - - - - --
~~e *
~
78 1
A Okay.
2 This one was an NCR that I wrote, and this was when 3
we were doing the walkdowns, that I had written up a weld 4
for being insufficient.
5 And when I went back up there to look at the weld, 6
well, they had come back in behind me and the weld tech had 7
taken and had craft, just on the back of a piece of paper,.
8 and told them to add metal to that weld; and they had no 8
docu' mentation for it, and no ANI sign off on it, or nothing.
10 They just came in there and added metal.
11 Q And who are weld techs?
U
, A Well, what they decided to do, because we were 13 finding so many discrepancies, that they were going to take 14 a weld tech and send them ahead of us to identify-problems; 15
. and then they could turn it_in and the craft would go ahead.
16 And that way they didn't have to do paperwork; see?
17 Q But these are Q-systems, Q-m'aterials?
18 A Yuh.
18 Q And yet they're bringing BOP inspectors in to look 20 at what you're inspecting? Ahead of you?
21 A Yuh. .
22 Q To --
23 A Look at it ahead of us. +
24
. ;. Q -- speed it up?
8 A They brought some of them in from craft.
. . . . - .op....@ .. -
c*'* '**'"
- e
79 1
Q Who was directing that this be done?
2 A Bob Seavers'and Bill Baker.
3 Q What time frame did this occur?
4 A This was in '82 or '83.
5 Q What systems?
6 A All of them.
7 Q This was just a common practice?"
8 A It was all of them. They would just cet a drawing 9
see, and they would just follow that drawing; and all the 10 hangers that were on there, VRHL', and all the hangers that 11 were on there, that's what they would do.
U Q
So the weld techs were preparing irs o.n deficiencies .
U they found?
14 A No. They just wrote little notes.
15 Q Did they put a hold tag?
16 A No.
17 Q Were they applying reject tags?
18 A No.
19 Q They were just pointing out the deficiencies?
20 A
Craft would follow them doing what they pointed out.
21 Well, things happened, you know, in a system when 3
you're doing something like that, well, then they started 23 I getting the drawings that we had already completed. '
- 24 And so there we had either already bought something 25 off or rejected it, and they had it; and they would go up l
2 ~ ~~ ~ ~~
~ ' ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~'
80 s
t 1
there -- we'd bought it off;they would reject its and 2
they'd come back in and weld it; and then they'd call us to-3 come up there and look at the weld.
4
.Q Was there any procedure that allowed or created' 5 .
the precedent for them using weld techs to inspect welds in 6
advance of QC?
7 A
No, it was just something they decided it'd be a - !
8 good idea.
8 Q
Did the weld techs sign off on the weld sheet? i 10 A No. -
11 Q
It was kind of an informal inspection system? 4 A Yes. (Nodding affirmatively) 13 Q Help me here because I'm not familiar: some of the 14 systems have hold points for the welds that were being
" performed?
18 A
If they hadn't had weld _techs doing it,.ves.
If I had gone up there and rejected the weld, then I would have written an NCR and rejected that weld.
Then they would have had an RPS.
N -
The way they were doing it, then they didn't have to have an NCR; they didn't have to have an RPSs Q Give me an example can you remember some system 2 -
you say.it was done in general -- but, can you remember a 7, specific system?
" ]
A Heat exchangers, Unit 1 heat exchangers.
- <et **
3 . .
81 1
Hangers.
2 Q Okay.
3 When?
4 A '82; '81, '82.
5 Q When did this come to an end?
6 A As far as I know, they're still doing it.
7 MR. CARPENTER:
Can we take a 3 or 4 minute break?
8 (Recess) 9 MR. GRIFFIN: Okay.
10 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
11 Q As regards undocumented weld repairs, vou indicate n an instance where you cauaht
. craft welding metal on a hancer 13 that had already been bought off.
14 You said you went to Quality Engineering to get an H5 NCR number, and they resisted you; and then you went to anothe r is office and finally got the number. Is that richt?
17 A Yes.
- 2 18 Q It was 7912?
19 A Yes, sir. '
20 There was an unattended office in the admin 21 building, and I went there to get the number. They put the 22 numbers on a sheet on the door, and then you just fill.it in.
23 So I put the number on my NCR and left it there, .
24 and filled in the blanks there with what I had written uo.
25 Q
bo you know -- well, if this NCR was -- how it was
.o .
82 t
1 dispositioned?
2 A No.
3 Q You never went back and looked?
4 A I couldn't. I went on days right after that. ,
5 They put me on days, and so I couldn't check it. It wasn't 6 like at night. At night I could go around and find things 7 out if I wanted to. But on days you couldn't.
8 Q. But we could go and look at the NCR log and --
9 under 7912 --
10 A Yes.
11 -- and it should be there, and it should be Q
U dispositioned by now?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Okay.
2 We may have already covered this, but what time 16 frame were we talking about for this particular incident?
17 A I think we're talking around June of ' 72.
18 Q '827 19 A '82, I'm sorry.
20 Q June '82.
21 A I think I can get a copy of that. I was going to U do that, --
l 23 Q We can get a copy of it.
24
,! .-., A Okay.
25 And find out what happened to it. -But I know it
a 84 I
. really upset them because they had done the work and they s 2 didn't have an ANI; and I went and got an ANI. And he came' 3
up and I showed it to the ANI man, John Harper. And he came a
4 up there and we did verbal battle with them over it.
5 And the guy didn't want to give me the NCR number 6
but, like I said, I went down the hill and got me one anyway.
7 Okay.
, p Q (7 8 You indicate here another NCR that you wrote in
) 9 January 27, 1984 in which a weld tech was called in and 10 performed inspections on QC hold points incorrectly?
t 11 A Yes, sir.
U According to procedure, if a final NDE on the weld 13 data card has been bought off, then if there is an RCS to be 14 issued, if for some reason the weld failed, an RT, then, 2
you are to -- the RPS is assigned QC hold point.
16 The final NDE had been bought off on the 14th; 17 on the 15th they did an RT on it. It. busted. It was not good.
18 So they issued a repair process sheet on the 16th. .
19 I have that here somewhere. '
- 20 t
They issued the RdS on the 16th and they issued '
il it with weld tech hold point.
3 So in order to cover -- to me, in order to cover 23 what they had done, where it should have been QC instead of .
24
' .j: weld tech, they went to Jack and they told Jack that.they 3
wanted him to line through date of the 14th, and put down the l
_ , . . , , - - . , - ,,m.,.,.%_., -- , , , _, ,---,,.e. . - -
,c --.-x.--.,,-<w. -,
=. .- . _ . - - . -. . . -.
85 1 17th.
2 And Jack said that he didn't.want to do that.
3 i
He didn't think he was supposed to do that.
1 j 4 Q And Jack?
5 A Quality control inspector.
+
6 They wanted to change his inspection date to the l 7 17th, which would make what they did okay for procedure.
8 So, now -- I'm jumping around here -- I went to j 9 I
Terry Concini and I showed it to Concini, and I said, Terry, i 10 something's wrong here.
d 11 I I said, if Jack forgot to put "
late entry" on the i 12 4 bottom of this, then I've got no problem with it. '
V
) 13 But the way it looks now, I've a bad problem.
- 14 And I said -- he said, "Oh, don't worry about that.
! That
- 15 t
RT was an information RT and it didn't count."
16 I said, "That doesn't make sense."
17 Well, come to find out, on that AF' system, --
18 Q What is "AF"?
! 19 A Alternate feedwater.
1 20 We have a directive, I understand, from the NRC I i ' 21 1
22 Anyway, it was a legitimate RT and included in the 23 package.
J 24 I said, that'just doesn't make sense to me, that, 25 you know, if it was just'an in5ormation RT and it'still called :
-~6.
v y, 9. . = -doee, opp .we+ * * ~ * ' * *o
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' 86 !
i
- 1 .
.i for repair work that we did it out of procedure,
,' 2 So I talked to Jack. First I went to the super-3 i
visor. I went to everybody first. Before I wrote the thing 4 up. I 4
3 j And I told Jack, I got Jack, and I told Jack, 6
- I said, " Jack, if you forgot to put ' late entry' on here, !
- 7 i
then that's all I need to make it fly-with ANI. But otherwise 8
I've got a problem here."
9 " ,
And he said, No, no, that's not what happened at
, 10 all."
i He said, "The craft people brought that package to 11 me and wanted me to change the date from the 14th to the 17th.
D And I said, I don't think I can do that."
13 i And they said, "Yuh, you can; and it's okav; we've 14 already talked to your supervisor and you can do it." .
N So Jack said, "
I contacted Terry Concini."
. .He 16
. contacted him twice, called him twice, and went up the hill 17 once to see him about it. '
'18 And Concini told him, "Oh, it's just an information 4
19 i
RT, it doesn't count; go ahead and. change the date."
1 20 1
So Jack did change the date.
21 i So with that I'went ahead.and wrote the thing up.
i E Q An NCR7 23 -
, A- Um-huh, an NCR.
, ,, 24
" And then -- that was actually the.24th; I put the 25 27th; but it was the 24th -- on the 27th, there was
.i
)I 4
i eq eem * .
E[ -- , e
- ~
. . . .. . _ _ ~_ __
s 87 I
1 a meeting. And I was called into the meeting with Bob
- 2 Seavers, Ted Blixt, Dwight Woodard, Terry Methjeni and 3 Jack Sanford.
4 And before I went into the meeting I went down to 5
Dwight's office to meet with everybody so I could go up there .
6 with them.
- 7 And Terry turned ta Dwight and he says, "Oh, by 8
the way, Dwight, we fixed that problem up. Jack just forgot 9 to put ' entered in error on there'".
1 10 And so, when I got into the meeting and they asked 11 why I had written the NCR, then I started to explain.
M And Ted Blixt just jumped up and started yelling 13 1
.i at me. "How come you to. write this NCR and not even talk 14 to the inspector? You didn't have to write this NCR. It i
15 wasn't even necessary."
16 And I said, "You just wait -- you just give me 17 30 seconds, sir, I'll explain to you why I wrote the NCR."
18 I said, "I did go to the inspector and I did talk 19 to the inspector."
20 And then I told them just what I just told you .
21 And the inspector was sitting right there. ,
I l
22 "
So, they came back'with, Well, we're just going 3
to annul the NCR, because it's all been took care of now."' l 24 And, "
, ,. Do you concur with this?"
25 And I said, " Gentlemen , it's up to you" , you know.
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1 Q Did the NCR have a number?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q And it was put into .the system; right?
4 A I have a copy of it; yes.
5 Q Okay, will you provide that to 'us?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q Now, if we go back and talk to Jack, is he going to 8
say that it was an error, a typographical error? Is that 9
going to be his story to us?
10 A l .
Yes, sir, because he's been told to say that.
11 Q Are you convinced.that he knew that by changing O
that number that he was making a false entry?
13 A I think Jack was afraid he was; but when you meet 14 Jack, you'll know that Jack's afraid of everybody.
15 .
And he came to me and he said, he wanted - "I just 16 want to know one thing,llEn why did you write me up?"
17 I said, " Jack, I didn't write you up. In fact, 18 I tried to cover up for you." -
19 Because they came in the next day, the Level-3 was running around hollering " falsification of documentation."
21 And said, " Wait a minute:
you and I both kn,ow Jack did what 2
22 he was told to do." I said, "where the mistake was made 23 was with weld en{ineering. They knew, thgy had the paper right '
5' s -
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- . in frontwaf N them, telling them that that final NDE'-- they E
knew it had a QC hold point."
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1
. So I tried to cover for Jack. I said, " Jack, 2
there's going to be a meeting, a meeting is go'ing to be 3
called."
4 See, I didn't know that he had already done this 5
other stuff -- signed " late entry" on it.
6 I said, " Jack, there's going to,be a meeting called. "
7 I said, "when it's calle'd, when you go in there, please, 8
tell them the truth. Tell them exactly what happened.
8 Use the names -- everything; but tell the truth!" Ycu know, 10 because I was still trying to protect Jack.
11 And I didn't know that I was the one in trouble.
N (Laughter) i 13 And so, about that time Dwight came up behind me 14 and he's patting me on the-shoulder and saying, $lllll[there' s 2
! going to be a meeting at two o' clock this afternoon, and 16 we want you there. And, Jack, we want you there."
17 .
And I said, "Oh, boy."
1 18 So Jack turns around to me again, he says, "Why 18 did you write me up?"
20 I said, " Jack, I didn't write you up."
21 "Everybody says you did." . .
- 22 He's just that way.
1 23 Q Okay.
j
~% 24 Next your affidavit says, Rusty, a Level-3, j 25 approached me about my NCR; was Rusty at the time convinced it i
paw wwW 4 :*** M*W # ' O I
3
. 90 1
was a typographical error, or do you think he knew at that
. 2 point?
3 A Rusty knew; he knows. Oh, yuh, he knew.
4 Q He knew it was changed?
5 A Yuh, he knew.
6 Q To make it right?
7 A Yuh, he knew it; sure.
8 Q Why was he trying to get you to sign it?
9 A He'd been told to.
10 Q By who?
11 A By Seavers.
U And he came up to me and says, "You got to sign la this concurrence slip."
14 And I said, "Got to?"
D
. He said, "Well, no, you don't have to."
16 And I said, "Well, I'm not."
17 And he said, "I didn't think you would."
18 And I said, "I don't want my name on there."
19 And then he took off and went straight into 20 Seaver's office with it. So that was, at that point -- the 21 next day or two, then I was notified that I,was on the layoff 22 list ; then I was notified when I objected to that, because 23 of my experience and my level and my certification, then, 24
~f,r .
's they came back, then Dwight came back and told me that they 25 were going to put in weld enginearing and cut my pay in half.
91 I
And I just said,"Okay."
2 And I knew then that if I didn't leave that they 3
were going to discredit me in some way.
4 They had done it -- I had three other people, 5
friends of mine, that they did that to.
6 One, they came up and said that they wanted to-7 get rid of him. And Anthony wouldn't leave.
So, suddenly 8
they went out into the parking lot out there, and out of all 9
the' cars out that that I know had marijuana in them, they 10 found a stub of marijuana in his car.
11 That's just strange to me out of all the parking lot, and I know the guys that go out there and light-up as 13 soon as they get there -- and Anthony's the one they got.
14 They did the same thing with Alan Adkins. They got him, too.
- 16 He was writing an NCR arid I told him, I said, 17
" Alan, don't write that NCR; I wrote it and as a result of 18 writin~g it I ended up with -- I lost my lead position because 19 of it.
And in order to protect myself, I had to go nights, to get away."
21
.And he said, "Oh, I'll be careful.about my 22 wording."
8 I said, " Alan, I was very careful."
24
.,7 .
. :. .- Well, in a few days they came and got Alan on' 25 !
falsification of documentation. And there it is. Alan's
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working on a chicken farm. Two weeks ago he cut his finger 2
off. An A-inspector, with about eight years experience, 3
and he's working on a chicken farm! It's the only job he 4
can get.
5 Q And you believe this was because he was doing his 6
jo37 7
A Yuh. Because he wrote NCRs on stuff -- it's 8
all right to write NCRs on minimum weld and it's okay to 9
wri'te NCRs on arc strikes.
10 But don't write them on anything important.
11 Anything that's really important, anything that's going to UI hold them up.
13 And then, of course, Chuck Adkins -- we all know 14 the story of Chuck.
15 Q Anyway, after that, various events occurred in 16 which they complained about you being out of your work area, 17
, and you eventually gave two weeks notice?
18 A That was after I gave two weeks notice, they came 19 in and said I had been -- it had been reported that I was 20 out of my work area, and that I didn't feel like I could 21 stay in my area, that I could just go. ,
ZZ Q Okay.
23 The events you've identified that we've just been 24 g talking about, is this what you have filed as your basis for 25 your
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1 A Yes.
2 Q Okay.
j 3
MR. CARPENTER: Partially, not all of those.
4 THE WITNESS: Well, yes, not all of it.
5 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
6 Q Well, I'm talking about this last incident?
}. '
gf 7 Did that lead up to your leaving?
8 A Yes.
9 1
Q You make.a general observation in here that you 10 believe QA lacks independence, and that there is pre'ssure 11 from the craft side on QC inspectors?
U
~~
A Yes.
13 Q You said that last year you were called to inspect 14 a pipe hanger and that you saw another hanger?
i 3 A Yes.
16 Q And they told you not to look at that hanger?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Who was the goldhat, do you remember?
4
! 19 A No. I want to say it was Slim, but I know it 20 wasn't Slim. I've always thought of him as Slim, but that's 21 not his name. He's a tall, skinny, old, fel, low.
22 It's just a thing. - I'm not.the only one that it's 23 happened to.
I I think it's happened to just about every 24'
.'1 inspector out there, that if you call in and you see somethinq E
i else, you're told -- I know it's happened.to Alan, because l
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94 !
I we talked about it a couple of weeks ago before he had a 2
finger cut off --- about' being called out and seeing something 3
else, and going to identify it;'and being told to leave it 4
alone; that that wasn't what you were called for.
5 ,
Q And up until the point you left your employment 6
with Brown & Root did you still have the authority to write 7
NCRs?
8 A Yes.
8 Q
You could get the number, you could report it?
10 g y,,,
11
~
They had me in document review during the last:
U but I still wrote NCRs.
13 Q
Telk me about the letter that you and other QC 14 people were attempting to draft in January?
3 A
I can give you -- I can show it to you.
16 Q Okay. Will you give us a copy of that, too?-
17 g y,,,
Q Okay.
8 ,
Did you eventually send it to Brown & Root?
20 A Yes, sir. '
21 Q -Did you ever receive any~ reply? -
22 A No, sir.
23 I gave a copy of it to Gordon Purdy and a copy to 24 Eastern Office. 1 25 l Q Is this after you left or 'before you left?
l 4
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1 A Just before I left. r 5
i 2
(
I tried to get with Mr. Purdy, it was on a Tuesday,
)
[
i l 3 yuh, it was Tuesday before I left.that I was given the 4 ultimatum.
i 5 1
And I tried to talk to Mr. Purdy and te.11 him what i 6
had happened; because I didn't think that that was richt. i i
J ;
i 7
And finally, when they had me go down to see i 8 . ;
Bob Scott, and I was supposed to sign some papers for TUCO; -
j 9 1
and I gave him a copy of the letter, and because of what I i s
i 10 wrote on the papers for TUCO :
' then they got really upset. ,
+
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So they went and somehow they got involved with Purdy.
4 m >
And he came up to the office and got me and he said 13 -
he wanted to see me about a letter I had -- something -- and t
3 ;
i 14 I said, "I've been leaving messages all week that I wanted 2 to talk to you."
16 And he said, "Well, I~know you have, but I been ;
. 17 so busy." !
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i 4
And I went in and I told him then about what i
) 19 had happened. And I said, "I don't think that that is.the {
20 I
way to treat somebody." I said, "I been here almost five !
' t 21 years. I have no reprimands in my record. ,I am fully I 22 certified.
I'm even certified on the non-ASME side of the r El house. -
i And I have'two letters of recommendation in my file. '
24 ;
t 4 from Brown & Root supervisors. 1md-I don't think that was
'25 any way t$ do me."
i 1
~
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I led up to your termination, not your termination, but your 2
quitting?
3 A Not physically. Like I stated before, my fear 4
was that they would discredit me in some way.
5 Q Your reputation?
6 4 Ruin my reputation.
7 Q Affect your future job opportunities?
I 8
A Yes.
9 Q You say in your affidavit in the second week of 10 January 1984, Purdy called a meeting in which he told the 11 inspectors not to talk to the GAP representatives that U
were in the parking lot?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Did you attend this meeting?
u" A Yes. -
16 Q
Now, you said,.again, that you did not exactly hear 17 Purdy say this; but you heard from others that Purdy had 18 said that people who talked to GAP would be fired?
19 A
That's what I heard from others. '
20 Q Is there anybody you can direct me to, or tell me 21 the name of, who actually heard Purdy say QA-QC peoole would 22 be fired if they talked to GAP personnel?
23 A I can't.
i 24 Q Or was it just the general --
26 A It was just the general talk, like.
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Q When you attended this meeting, did you hear most 2
of what Purdy was saying?
3 A No.
4 Q Was it, like, too big an area?
5 A We were outside, it was freezing; the wind was 6
blowing 90-to-nothing; and he was trying to shout so every-7 body could hear; because we couldn't get the conference 8
room for all the QC people to get into.
9 ~
And I was standing there in the back and most of 10 us were just huddling around trying to stay warm.
We were 11 freezing.
U Q If I asked Mr. Purdy -- this is your opinion, now,-- .
13 if I asked Mr. Purdy if he said he'd fire people for talking 14 to GAP representatives, what do you think he'd say?
U A Well, I would think he'd say no.
16 Q Are you convinced that he threatened to terminate 17 anyone who talked to GAP representatives?
18 A oh, like -I said, I didn't hear it.
U MR. GRIFFIN: Okay, as far as I can see, that 20 covers the specific concerns you have. I know you're going 21 to have to wait out and everything, and 22 it will probably be very necessary for the NRC representatives 23 who handle your various concerns - you know, there's too 24 many of them and various experts will need to address these 3
various concerns; people that we have in the NRC, to look into e.- ----
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-.~
.s 99 1- these areas.
1 2
) And there may come a time when further questions 3
will need to be asked. May we contact you and ask you these 4
questions? -- to get more specifics, or ask other questions, 5
like over the phone, or something like that?
6 THE WITNESS: How will I know it's you?
7 MR. GRIFFIN: Well, probably the best way is to 8
ask -- is to ask anybody that calls and identifies themselves 9
as NRC representatives -- the best thing to do is just to 10 call back collect.
11 THE WITNESS: Okay.
U MR. GRIFFIN: 'You know, that's the simplest way I've 13 always found whenever I want to make sure I'm talking to 14 whoever they say.
2 J MI But we probably will need to do follow-ups. And 16 you can ask them. You know me, now, Brooks Griffin, 17 Mr. Ippolito,' and you can ask them; anyway, satisfy yourself.
18 THE WITNESS: All right.
UI MR. CARPENTER: Be sure to call us if.you have any 20 questions.
21 MR. GRIFFIN: But we really need a,n opportunity to 22 ask follow-up questions. I have no reason to believe that we have asked you every single question today that we probalby 24
,., need to ask you.
. v.e t
THE WITNESS: Well, I know that there's things that
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I thought about later that I should have said something
~
2 about and wrote down, but then I didn't bring them, so...
3 (Laughter).
4 MR. . GRIFFIN: Okay.
5 Well, if you have additional information,
.C documents, or anything like that you would like for us to have 7 a look at, you might include them with these things you all 8-
) &s/ have already have committed to giving to us; and maybe a
{ 9 written explanation or something:like that. Because that's gr g(1 10 our job, is to inspect these plants, investigate trouble.
~~- 11 THE WITNESS: There is one I wanted to talk to you U about.
! 13 i = Now, I don't want to use'this man's name, because f 14 i I know he does not want to become involved any'more. He was 15 terminated out there.
i 16 He was one of our supervisors. He was also one of l 17 1
our trainers in charge of training.
{<
18 l
And his advice to me when I went to him -- his wife's ;
19 ,
a friend of mine -- was to stay totally out of it; because, 20 .
he said, it's too dangerous.
t 21 But what got him terminated is when they brought 22 -)
the bunch up from South Texas, when South Texas went under. 1 25 i And they brought all those people out from South Texas.
g, 24 b * %:
They brought -- of course, they got rid of our 25 people, you know, the people that were there; they got rid of.
i 9
. . . . . . ~ -
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1 And, George said that he got -- just as a matter
! 2 of his being training director, he needed information on 3 these people. ~
So he went.to the computer and gbt,on the 4
terminal and started getting information on the background 5 on these people.
6 And when he saw what it was, he went to -- he i 7 went to Tolson and them, and he said, "
Look," he said, 8
-- not just Tolson, but Frankum -- and he said, "Look, you a
9 better check on these people. The education they're tellinq '
10 you they have, they don't have.
All they have is a i
11 symposium or something or some document they sent off for."
3 MR. GRIFFIN: QC inspectors he didn't believe 13 were qualified to hold the positions they were being --
14 THE' WITNESS: These were Level-3's and stuff.
t U5
- MR. GRIFFIN: Okay.
16 THE WITNESS: That they brought in.
17 And this is what he said.
18 So after he did that he said, "All I'm telling.you 19 is before they shut that terminal to South Texas down, i
20 you better get on.there and get this information; because a
21 these people are coming up he're with documentation that 22
-- I mean, they've got the little squares on the wall, like, 23 I've got a bunch of squares, too; and it looks good on the 24 i
wall; but it's not, worth tiddleywinks, you know."
25 And --
l I
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N*ME * *^ "8'" #+ + -
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. . 102 1
MR. GRIFFIN: But as these people came on site, 2
did they not have to take tests?
3 THE WITNESS: They were corporate level-3's.
4 They just trained, got training.
5 MR. GRIFFIN: Do you know the names of any of these 6
guys?
7 THE WITNESS: Well, I do, but right now -- they're 8
still there, level-3's.
MR. IPPOLITO: You say they were all in training 10 at one time? -
11 THE WITNESS:
1 They were in training, trained them 12 .
as inspectors.
13 MR. IPPOLITO: They trained them as inspectors?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes. sir.
15 And also when they gave the level-3 test to a 16 bunch of people out there that were level-2 inspectors, 17 what I was told -- and I was told this by one of the.
18 lead men, and he was mad because they didn't include him 19 and let him take the level-3 test -- that they gave them the
! m test right here and the ans,wer sheet right there (indicating).
21
, MR. IPPOLITO: But he was not one of the ones 22 taking the test?
23 THE WITNESS: No. But he was angry because he had i
M
/-
been there for so long and they didn't include him and let 2
,i him take the level-3 test.
a os -
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But I think the stuff about the guys' certification ,
2 that would be easy enough for you all to check.
3 MR. GRIFFIN: Okay.
4
. lhghaveIoranyotherNRCrepresentativehere 5
threatened you in any manner or offered you any reward 6
in return for this statement?
7 THE WITNESS: No.
8 MR. GRIFFIN: Have you given this statement freely 9
and' voluntarily?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 MR. GRIFFIN: 'Is there anything further that you 12 would like to add for the record?
13 THE WITNESS: I think not.
14 MR. GRIFFIN: Tom, is there anything that you 2
would like to add?
16 MR. CARPENTER: No, other than if #
17 remembers other concerns -- in other words, we don't is necessarily believe this is comprehensive; that she might 19 remember in the future items; and will bring them forward then.
20 MR. GRIFFIN: Sure. The NRC is always there and 21 that's our business to receive and review and inspect and 2
identify problems in this area. Somebody can direct us to 23 problems, then that makes our job easier.
24 THE WITNESS:
I used to keep a log of everything, but
~
1 25
(
they said it was illegal for us to have them; and so I threw !
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104 I
them away. I got scared.- Junked them; put' a bunch of iron 2
, on top of them.
3 MR. GRIFFIN: That's all. Thank you.
4 (Whereupon, at 5:20 p.m., Friday, April 6, 1984, 5
the interview was concluded.) .
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 .
20 <
23 24 25 l
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i CERTIFICATE OF PROCEE3h:Cs 105 l 2 3 This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the 4 NRC cot @lISSION, 3 In the matter of: COMANCHE PEAK, CONFIDENTIAL INTERVIEW
, Date of Proceeding: Friday, April 6, 1984 7 Place of Proceeding: Cleburne, Texas
, were held as herein appears, and that this is the original
, transcript for the file of the Commission.
to it James R. Burns, Jr.
Official Reporter - Typed Oy s' I
%.{'lfffhi -
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/
pf ficiad Rep 4rter - Si,gnature r /
d
- 15 16 17 18 -
~
19 l
20 21 22 23 24
- s *$5 25 TAYLOE ASSOCIATE 5 REcis7tREo PRortssioNAI. REPoMTERs NoRWoLK. VIRGINEA
- __ '4._. . . . . _ ._
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ . - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ~ ~ ~ - ~ - ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
F~s s CC~'OENTIALITY AGREEMENT
. I i have infomation that I wish to provice in confidence to the U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC). I request an express pledge cf confidentiality as a condjtien of providing this ingrmation to the NRC. I will not provide this infomation voluntarily to the Nm. without such conridentiality being extenaec to me.
- t is my understanding, consistent with its legal obligations, the NRC, by agreeing to this confidentialir, will adhere to the following conditiens: )
(1) The NRC will not identify me by name or personal identifier in any NRC l initiated document, conversatic1, or comunication released to the public which l relates directly to tne infomation provided by me. I understand the tem "public release" to encompass any distribution outside of the NRC with the exception of other public agencies which may require this information in futherance of their responsibilities under law or public trust.
(2) The NRC will disulose my identity within the NRC only to the extent required for the conduct of NRC related activities.
(3) During the course of the inquiry or investigation the NRC will also make every effort consistent with the investigative needs of the Comission to avoid actions which would clearly be ' expected to result in the disclosure of my identity to pamns subsequently contacted by the NRC. AT a later stage I understand that even though the NRC will make every reasonable effort to protect my identity, my identification could be compelled by orders or subpoenas issued by courts of law, hearing boards, or similar legal entities. In such cases, the basis for granting this promise of confidentiality and any other relevant facts will be comunicated to the authority ordering the disclosure in an effort to maintain my confidentiality. If this effort proves unsuccessful, a representative of the NRC will attempt to infom me of any such action before disclosing my identity.
I also understand that the NRC will consider me to have waived my right to confidentiality if I take any action that may be rea3onably expected to cisclose my id, entity. I further understand that the NRC will consider me to have waived my rights to confidentiality if I provide (or have previously provided) information to any other party that contradicts the infomation that I provided to the NRC or if circumstances indicate that I am intentionally providing false information to the NRC.
Other Conditions: (ifany)
Qs ,W/rMa ()/g p Mcgy(D /$f 41fTv4f:~
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Ihavereadandfullyunderstandthecontentsofthisagreem% f ent.
- [6:4. 0 I agree with its provisions.
~
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Date nature of lon Typed or Printed Name and dress Agrced to on behalf of the US Nuclear Regulatory Comission J.!-N lp'.!
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Date 51gnatdre
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Typed or Printed Name anF. Title revision 1.
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