ML20154S322
| ML20154S322 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Comanche Peak  |
| Issue date: | 04/06/1984 |
| From: | Carpenter T, Griffin H, Ippolito T GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY PROJECT, NRC OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS (OI), Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20154R138 | List: |
| References | |
| NUDOCS 8604010060 | |
| Download: ML20154S322 (89) | |
Text
JAB:jrb 1
a 1
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
~
2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS 4
REGION IV 5
6 CONFIDENTIAL INTERVIEW 7
OF 8
9 Friday, April 6, 1984 10 Cleburne, Texas 11 12 The interview was commenced at 6:55 p.m.
13 PRESENT:
14 H. BROOKS GRIFFIN, Investicator, Office of Investigations, U.
S.
Nuclear Regulatory 15 Commission, Region IV, Arlington, Texas 16 THOMAS IPPOLITO, Engineer, NRR, U.
S.
Nuclear Regulatory Commission, Washington, D.
C.
'.7 THOMAS CARPENTER, Legal Intern, Government 18 Accountability Project, 1901 Q Street, N.
W.,
Washington, D.
C.
20009 19 Interviewee 21 22 24 r
(i. -
3 8604010060 860320 PDR ADOCK 05000445 A
m a
Q 2
1 CONTENTS 2
WITNESS EXAMINATION 3
3 4
5 6
7 8
9
.i 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
- v.,
25 i
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r 3
1 PROCEEDINGS 2
MR. GRIFFIN:
We're going to go on the record now.
3 This is an interview of who is 4
employed by Brown & Root at Comanche Peak Steam Electric 5
Station.
6 The location of this interview is Cleburne, 7
Texas, and this is April 6, 1984.
8 present at this interview are 9
Tom Carpenter, Representative for the GAP, the Government 10 Accountability Project; Tom Ipnolito, NRC, NRR: and H.
Brooks 11 Griffin with the NRC OI; and Mr. Burns, the Court Reporter.
[2 I need to swear you to the contents of your 13 statement, would you rise and raise your right hand, please?
- 14 Whereupon, 15 16 havine first been duly sworn by Investigator Griffin, was t
17 examined and testified as follows:
18 EXAMINATION 19 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
20 Q
The first subject we need to discuss is the 21 confidentiality agreement.
I'm going to read this to you, 22 and I'm going to read it into the record; and it's important 2
that we both have a clear understanding of what the terms 24 of this agreement are.
(
3 So, I'm going to be asking you as we go along if
4 1
you understand; and I am sure you do.
4 2
" Confidentiality Agreement.
I have information 3
that I wish to provide in confidence to the Nuclear 4
Regulatory Commission.
I request an express pledge of 5
coniidentiality as a condition for providina_this information 6
to the NRC.
I will not provide this information voluntarily 7
to the NRC without this confidentiality being extended."
8 Do you understand that?
9 A
Yes, I do.
10 Q
Okay.
11 "It is my understanding that consistent with its 12 legal obligations the NRC, by agreeing to this confidentialit y 13 will adhere to the following conditions:"
14 These first three conditions are what.the government 15 is agreeing to.
This is what binds us; this is what we 16 must follow.
17 "No.
1.
The NRC will not identify me by namelor 18 personal identifier in any NRC initiated document, conversatioli 2
or communication released to the public which relates directly 20 to the information provided by me."
21 Do you understand?
22 A
Yes, I do.
i 23 Q
We will not use your name in our reports; we will 24 not use your title or some description in there that would r:
25 allow the reader to identify you?
i I
s
~5 1
A Right.
2 Q
"I understand the term 'public release' to 3
encompass any distribution outside of the NRC, with the excep-4 tion of other public agencies which may require this infor-5 mation in furtherance of their responsibilities uncher law 6
or public trust."
7 This means that the NRC will not release B
documents that bear your name or any other identifier to 9
anybody outside the NRC, with the exception of other 10 responsible public agencies.
i 11 An example might be that at some point in future, i
12
- say, 13 just as an example.
If you did, it might be that the 14 NRC' would receive 15 as to your activities as an inspector, our 16 knowledge of you.
17 This is an agreement between the NRC M 18 that consistent with the law and it 19 would be possible the NRC 20 A
I see.
21 Q
But that would not be released outside the public 22 agencies that have such need under law.
23 A
Okay.
s 24 Q
That is the exception.
i.;.
25 "No.
2.
The NRC will disclose my identity within
-.. - _ _. _ _ _, _. _ _ _ _ _. _.. _. _ --._...._. _. _ _. _ _ 1 1
4 6
c I
the NRC only to the extent required for the conduct of 2
NRC-related activities."
3 In other words, they don't go back and say, " hey, 4
last night I met It will be only those 5
people that need to know who will be told what your name is.
6 If your name appears on a document and an insoector 7
is assigned to go look at a document and to determine whether 8
something is wrong with that document, he's going to need to 9
know your name so he can identify the document.
10 A
Right.
11 Q
But that doesn't mean he needs to tell five other 12 guys that are NRC inspectors.
It would be kept as restricted 13 as possible to maintain and ensure confidentiality.
The 14 government agrees to do that as part of its contract.
15 "yp.
3.
During the course of the inquiry or 16 investigation the NRC will also make every effort consistent 17 with the investigative needs of the Commission to avoid 18 actions which would clearly be expected to result in the 19 disclosure of my identity to persons subsequentlly contact by 20 the NRC."
21 In other words, I am interviewing tonight:
Let's 22 say next week I'm on-site and I am interviewing somebody in 23 DCC.
24 And I say, Now, listen, I talked to some people Q:[
25 cff-site, and I use some description that would tend to tell l
7 I
that person that I was subsequently interviewing, that would 2
lead them to say, hey, I know who he was talking to: he 3
was interviewing 4
Well, we take precautions to avoid identifying you 5
in that manner.
6 "At a later stand I understand that even though the 7
NRC will make every reasonable effort to protect my identity, 8
my identification could be compelled by orders or subcoenas 9
issued by courts of law or hearing boards or similar legal 10 entitles.
In such cases the basis for the granting of this 11 promise of confidentiality and any other relevant facts will 12 be communicated to the authority ordering the disclosure in
~
13 ah s'ffort to maintain my confidentiality."
14 What this means is, a court of law legally has the 15 right to compel the NRC to give up your name, or it's 16 possible that they could have a legal basis for compelling 17 your name.
10 If such an unusual occurrence were to occur, the 19 NRC would resist divulging your name in every way possible.
20 And if everything else failed, the NRC would 21 even ask that the court, if we were compelled as an Agency 22 to give up your name -- which is highly unlikely -- but if 23 we were compelled to do so, we would still as a last gasp, p.
24 request it be given just to the Judge, to satisfy his needs.
25 And the last thing in this paragraph says:
8
=
1 "If this effort proves unsuccessful, a representative 2
of the NRC will' attempt to inform me of any such action before 3
disclosing my identity."
4 Now, I've only been in NRC for about a year and a 5
half, but I do not know of any instances where the NRC has 6
been compelled to divulge a confidential source's identity.
7 And I don't anticipate any such instances.
We hope this will 8
never come up.
And I think we can state here in full 9
confidence that it will not in this case.
10 Okay, now, the next paragraph involves your part 11 of the agreement, what you must abide by for this contract 12 to continue to exist:
13 "I also understand that the NRC will consider me 14 to have waived my rights" -- which means 'give uo' "to 15 have waived my.right to confidentiality if I take any action 16 that may reasonably be expected to disclose my identity."
17 In other words, if you go back where you live and 18 you call up some of your friends and you say, "I was just over 19 Friday night talking to the NRC, and I told them about all 20 the stuff I found."
If you do that, obviously, you are not 21 trying to keep it confidential.
22 A
And that's a fact.
23 Q
Okay.
24 Well, what we're saying is you shouldn't do that.
15 But if you do it, confidentiality --
t
9 1
A I wouldn't dare do it.
2 Q
Right.
3 So what we're saying is, if you do this, the NRC 4
will no longer be compelled.
If you aren't keeping it 5
confidential, we will no longer be compelled to do so, also.
6 "I further understand that the NRC will consider 7
me to have waived my right to confidentiality if I provide 8
or have previously provided information to any other party 9
that contradicts any information that I have provided the 10 NRC, or if circumstances indicate that I am intentionally 11 providing false information to the NRC."
U Do you understand that?
13 A
Yes, I do.
14 Q
Okay.
15 Now, Tom has some conditions that he wishes to 16 read into the record that -- in support of maintaining 17 this confidentiality.
18 Tom?
19 MR. CARPENTER:
Okay.
20 Ie m a representative of the Government Accountabilit y 21 Project, a legal intern there, representingjbllEElhhere 22 today.
23 GAP would like to add-in as a condition to the 24 confidentiality statement that, we expect the Office of 3
Investigation and the authorities in this investigation,
a 10 I
to provide a copy of the investigation report that results 2'
from this investigation when it is made public, and when it 3
is available to the public -- that portion that is available 4
to the public -- when that time is reached.
5 And, secondly, we also expect the Office of 6
Investigation and the NRC to follow the normal OI policy 7
regarding retention of all material developed during the 8
course of your investigation as relates to 9
and not to destroy any notes or memorandum as relates to 10 11 And, finally, we would like to note ont he record 12 ti.at we would prefer not to have any Region IV personnel 13 in possession of name or files, if it can be
~
14 avoided.
15 And we would like to state on the record that 16 is our wish; and we would hope you would avoid that.
17 We realize you cannot promise _that, but we'd like 18 to have it on the record that this is what we would like to 19 have.
M MR. GRIFFIN:
Okay.
21 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
22 Q
in response to what he has said, the NRC 23 is prepared to send you a copy of that portion of the 24 NRC report that might result from your concerns; when it is V,.
s s..
25 released to the public, we would be willing to give that.
11 1
We will also send you a copy of the transcript 2
of whatever se say here today, and a copy of the confidentia-3 lity agreement.
4 I will adhere to the policy that we have which 5
includes the preservation of notes and documents that we 2
6 receive and we use in preparation of our investigative report s.
7 And as Tom has already said, GAP has reservations about 8
using Region IV personnel:
9 This is not a condition that the NRC can agree to.
10 He is merely expressing a concern about the use of Region 11 IV personnel and a desire that they'not be used.
12 "I have read and fully understand the contents of 13 this agreement and I agree with its provisions."
14 Is that true, 15 A
Yes.
16 Q
Okay.
17 What I need you to do is sign your name, right 18 here (indicating document); you can do it on this copy that 19 you have, right here.
20 A
(Witness signing document.)
21 MR. GRIFFIN:
Tom, would you witness?
22 (Mr. Carpenter signing document.)
23 (Mr. Griffin signing document.)
24 MR. GRIFFIN:
In that we've signed this, M M
we have an agreement; and the government will. abide by it;
12 I
and we expect you to, also.
2 As I said a few minutes before, a transcriot of 3
the proceedings this evening, along with a cooy of this 4
agreement will be mailed to you personally when we receive 5.
it; so you'll have -
you're entitled to copies of this; 6
and we will be sending them to you.
7 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
8 Q
- Okay, now, I want to start into your 9
initial or your original affidavit; and I'm coing to be 10 following the affidavit.
And probably the primary purpose for 11 our meeting this evening is to provide the NRC an opportunity 12 to go through your affidavit, assure that we understand 13 what you hcve to say; and also to try to get more specifics 14 that would help us to~1ook into these problems.
15 So I hope we can -- the affidavit lays out pretty 16 clearly what your concerns are; and this gives the NRC an 17 opportunity to get a little bi.t more if we can; and we'll be 18 moving from one issue to another.
19 Okay, your name is How are you 20 currently employed at Comanche Peak?
21 A
I am a 22 Q
You work in DCC or the satellites?
23 A
I work in QA office, in the QC building.
24 Q
Oh, ekay.
'~
25 And who is your immediate supervisor?,
.n
13 1
A My immediate supervisor, tne time sheet I'm on, 2
is 3
Q And what are your duties, daily duties?
4 A
At the present I control the flow'of documentation 5
from the craft to the QC, to ANI, and eventually into the 6
vault.
I Q
Okay.
8 When did you first begin your emcloyment at 9
Comanche Peak?
10 A
11 Q
Okay.
12 And what was your position when you were hired?
8 13 A
I was hired in as a document controller to draw 14 isolation drawings for the installation of insulation.
15 When a hydro was performed, after the hydro was 16 performed they would insulate it.
The walkdown was made, 17 the hydro was made; then I provided a drawing that they used 18 to insulate the areas that had been included within that 19 hydro limits.
20 Q
Did you then transfer to the position you presently 21 hold?
22 A
I went from the -- that position, to the task 23 force in the reactor building, handling hanger packages.
24 This was on the hanger push, to get the hangers through.
25 The job there was basically a clerk.
The QC
~
m 14 1
inspectors would walkdown the hangers and work to be done in 2
the reactor building; and I would -- I kept -- I provided 3
them with the ISOs --
4 Q
What does " ISO" stand for?
5 A
That's an isometric drawing.
It gives,you the 6
location by following that ISO of the hangers, the welds, 7
or anything in the plant you can find the location of in 8
this ISO drawing.
9 Q
Okay.
10 A
Also, the WDCs; they have certified copies, 11 certified vendors' copies of drawings of hangers, parts of U
hangers -- they call them VCDs -- vendors' certified copies 13-
-- to see that they were in the packages, to see that they 14 were used when the walkdown was made.
15 Basically, what I was doing was keeping, sort of 16 interfacin'g between craft when we would get the hanger 17 package, get it to the proper QC inspector, get it walked-18 down, and get it back up the hill to QA for review.
19 Q
You're interfacing with craft and you're interfacing 20 with document review --
21 A
Not with document review.
U I was interfacing with the QC inspectors, them-23 selves, making the walkdown.
24 Q
Okay.
L-25 You actually worked with QC.
15 1
A Yes, I was with QC.
At that time I was under 3
Q Okay.
4 MR. IPPOLITO:
How did the satellites or document 5
control fit into your scheme?
6 THE WITNESS:
Document control, I have -- I was --
7 you'd have to have a certification to pick up control 8
documents from document control.
Not everybody could get 8
them.
10 My number was, starts out as 083.
I could get 11 packages under the number of 083, control number.
12 Then it switched to control number 005.
But I 13 was t'he only one who could go to DCC and take control copies 14 out for anybody.
My supervisor couldn't do it.
No one was 15 supposed to be able to do it but myself.
16 MR. IPPOLITO:
In other words, you got your 17 packages from document control?
18 THE WITNESS:
I got my drawings, added them to the 18 packages that I had gotten from craft.
20 I had to see that there was a current revision 21 of all of the drawings in that package; that, say, they 22 brought me a hanger package from the welding, sent a ha,qer 23 package from craft that had gone through their reviews un to 24 that point.
25
.Then I would get the latest rev of the ISO I
s
~
16
.s I
would put it in the filing cabinet.
When the QC inspector 2
came in, I would give him the entire package.
He would take 3
it out and make his walkdown, his visual inspection, of 4
whatever he was -- whatever it was that he was --'and then i
5 he would bring it back; and then I would transmit it up the 6
7 This was before I got into QA review.
8 MR. IPPOLITO:
Where did the craft get it?
8 In other words, the crafts had to have a package 10 of something to build a hanger or --
11 THE WITNESS:
They got it from welding engineering.
12 MR. IPPOLITO:
And welding engineering got it 13 form whom?
14 THE WITNESS:
The welding engineering were the 15 ones who drew the packages up.
They were the ones who 16 made the -- in other words, I guess the best thing to do is 17 to explain the path of one of these documents.
1 18 MR. IPPOLITO:
All right, that would surely help i
19 me because I am confused.
20 THE WITNESS:
All right.
21 They -- the welding engineers are supposed to 22 determine what particular thing, hanger, et cetera, is to 23 be located for having its welding and everything --
4 24 MR. IPPOLITO:
Yuh.
25 i
THE WITNESS:
-- and that is supposed to be done by 9
i
- j
17 I
welding engineering; not always, but it's supposed to.
2
.MR.
IPPOLITO:
Right.
i 3
THE WITNESS:
l
~
Then they fix up a weld data card.
4 MR. IPPOLITO:
Okay.
5 THE WITNESS:
For hangers and for piping.
t-6 And they send these~to the field, to the craft.
7 The craftsmen do whatever is called for on this weld data
{
8 card, class traveller, or whatever it is.
They perform the 8
work.
10 If they have any problems -- and these task forces, 11 the way they had it set up, you had a welding engineer,
]
12 you had your QC, you had your ANI, you had your QA, all in 1'
t 13 this one area.
I wouldn't say it was an offica; it'wasn't.
j 14 l
And they all interfaced together, right there, 15 to expedite the -- whatever they were doing to the hangers, j
16 which, most the time was rework while I was there, modifica-17 tions that had come out.
18 And this was supposed to make them accessible to i
l' each other so that you wouldn't have to spend hours and days 20 to find them, run them down.
The task force was set up 21 specifically for a certain area, and for a certain project:
22 and they were all working on that one project so they weren't 23 distracted with something else.
s s
hf 24 I don't know if.I'm making it clear or not?
\\
M
+
i c
o s
18 1
BY MR. GRIFFIN:
llllllpPisthiswhatyouarecurrentlydoingnow?
2 Q
3 A
No.
4 Q
Okay.
I '.hink that's where I'm confused.
~
5 A
No.
6 Q
You did this, this carrying the weld data cards 7
through the system; and this was your job --
8 A
Now, that's my job now.
9 Q
Okay.
10 Then after July, I went on vacation; when I came 11 back off of vacation and reported to the task force, it 12 was no longer there.
13 MR. IPPOLITO:
This was July?
14 THE WITNESS:
I was the only one.
T'
.e was nobody 15 there.
16 They hadn't told me that they were doing away with 17 the night shift.
See, I worked nights, see.
18 So I called and I told him, what am 19 I supposed to do?
There's nobody here.
20 He said, "Well, EIEllE5 I forgot to get withk you."
21 He says, "Go some place and hide and wait till morning and 22 I'll see about bringing you on the day shift."
You know.
23 So this is when, it was right after I got back off 24 vacation, that I went on days.
When I went days, they first M
put me in the hanger department working on hanger
19 I
transmitters and things, to the ANI.
2 Then about a week after this, they put me in this 3
job that I am in now, which is controiling the flow of 4
documents.
5 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
6 Q
For QC?
I 7
A For QC.
I'm in QA.
It's called QES.
8 Q
Well, maybe I could clarify by saving:
during l
9 most of your concerns that we're going to go through here, 10 in this first affidavit which was made, you were employed 11 as -- or you were responsible for transmitting weld data 12 cards; is that correct?
13 A
Nov, during the first part of the document 14 j
that we're going through here, it was -- my first concern 13 j
came up at night, when I was on the night crew.
i 16 Q
And that was your job then, to transmit the --
1 17 A
Well, I started out, like I said, working on i
18 insulation packages; and this is up in the QA building.
19 And then I had concerns there.
l j
20 And then they transferred me'down to the task 21 force.
I had concerns there.
22 Q
Okay.
23 A
I traveled carrying, expediting -- is what they 24 call it -- the different --
l 2
Q Well, as we go into each one of these issues, dllll$lk e
- e 20 I
we'll try to achieve an understanding what your job was?
2 A
Right, okay.
3 Q
Because if I try to hold them all at once --
4 (Laughter) 5
-- I probably won't be able to.
6 Following the affidavit here, you indicate that 7
in the first paragraph here, that you said you had a creat 8
, deal of experience with documentation; and you explain in 8
here how a weld data card went through the system; and that 10 was your job in transmitting?
11 A
Right.
U Q
The weld data cards, and the engineering review, i
13 and quality control, ANI; and then you gave us an explanation 14 of how the system worked?
15 A
Right.
That is my present -- that's what I do
+
now.
Q What you do now?
Okay.
18 A
Right.
19 Q
Okay.
That's pretty clearly stated here.
21 Then you say one of the first problems that you had 22 was how documentation was stored.
You said you had a couple of fires?
A No, we didn.'t.
We would have if I hadn't been 25 there.
l
21 1
See, I worked nights, and at times I was the oniv 2
one in the QC building.
3 Q
Okay.
4 A
And there's been many nights out there that I have 5
been the only one up there working in the QC building.
6 Q
Um-huh.
7 A
This is when I was working on my insulation 8
drawings.
9 Q
Um-huh.
10 A
It was easier, I guess, to have me doing that then 11 than it was during the day time.
I started in onthe night 12 crew.
13 Q
Um-huh.
14 A
And I had gone into the main DC room to get a drink 15 of water, and'I smelled the smoke, And at that particular 16 time there was a boy that had stayed over reviewing at nights:
17 he was way at the other end of the trailer.
18 And, of course, first thing I thought was to ao 19 down and see if he smelled it.
20 Q
Um-huh.
M 04 21 Al\\
Wern Let me stop you for a minute, h M
,, g It just occurred to me, in consideration of 23 confidentiality, mainly I am interested in finding out some 24 information about these fires; I want to know that as it 25 relates to one of your potential concerns -- fire hazards O
22 t
1 out there.
i 2
But, rather than going into detail as to' hat w
exactly occurred, which would probably tend to identify you 3
as the person responsible and they are not actual ongoing 4
5 actual safety issues --
6 A
There's a much better way of identifying it than j
7 that; okay?
s There are six temporary trailers that are -- have i
9 no fire. protection whatsoever.
They don't have sprinklers 13 or anything.
4 11 Q
Um-huh.
g A
Joined together in one long line.
They're a i
13 potential fire hazard,.and if it ever caught on fire, thev 14 would be gone instantly.
1 15
.Q Okay.
4
.l 16 What trailers are these?
i j
17 A
These are the QC trailers, j
is Q
Okay.
1 19 A
QC building is just, it's right in front of the i
20 weld, welding engineering.
21 Q
Okay.
)
22 A
There are six trailers joined togehter there, a
23 temporary trailers; they are poorly-wired; the airconditioners 4
j
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24 are shot; there are many electrical potentials for fire, i
26 Q
Okay.
Tell me, llllll) are there any records i
i e
9 h
23 I
1 stored in those trailers?
2 A
All permanent.
3 Q
They are all permanent records?
4 A
You bet they are!
5 Q
Okay.
6 A
Hanger packages.
7 Q
Okay.
We'll have a look at that.
8 A
But my concern over that is, if that building 9
burned --
10 Q
The records are destroyed?
I'*
A You have destroyed a large part of Comanche Peak 12 piping out there.
13 Q
Mow, do you happen to know the procedure, if they i
14 have a procedure or requirement as to storage of records?
15 A
This I will not say I have actual knowledge; I've is heard that there is.
I've heard it discussed.
I haven't 17 actually read them, I haven't actually seen them.
18 But surely to goodness -there are procedures that 18 will protect those documents.
They are not supposed to be --
20 my understanding is -- I haven't seen a procedure on it, now; 21 you understand that?
D Q
Um-huh.
3 A
But my understanding is they are not to be outside 24 of a fireproof area.
25 Q
Okay.
We can check that out.
D
]
24 1
A When they store them in the vault, they don't 2
even allow smoking back there.
3 Q
Yuh.
4 MR. IPPOLITO:
Is the vaul: in a separate building?
5 THE WITNESS:
The vault is in a separate building.
6 It's in the administrative building down the hill.
7 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
8 Q
Okay.
You indicate, in your statement here 4
U, in May, about May of
'83, they lost a lot of documents, 9
A 10 packages?
11 A
They did.
U Q
They were changing their system; they tried to go 13 to a system where there could be~ packages in the field; is that 14 right?
15 A
Yes.
16 What had happened was they had come up with a task 17 force idea.
18 Q
Um-huh.
19 A
They had a regular hanger vault, they called it, 20 in welding engineering where all of the hangers were kept and 21 stored.
M When they set up their three task forces,
- reactor, 2
auxiliary and safeguards, they broke the documentation up into 24 those areas; and carried them down to the particular place 2
inside;.urs was inside the reactor.
One one in the aux
s 25
.s I
building.
2 And they carried it right directly to the area 3
that was being worked on, supposedly.
They didn't carry them' 4
all -- they had the files down there; they didn't transmit 5
them all at once.
They came down in bunches.
They carried 6
them down rhere in boxes.
7 Yes, there was 1,500 hanger packages lost down 8
there.
I don't know how many they've been able to find.
8 Q
Okay, who is responsible for trying to recover them:
10 do you know?
11 A
Whoever the last person that had them in their 12 possession.
13 Q
But, I mean, is there one group or one person 14 on site that's been tasked for trying to locate these lost 15 documents?
16 A
No.
II They did.have, now, I don't know what group thev 18 were called; there were two men that came looking for some of U
these lost hanger packages.
Q Do you remember their names?
A No, I don't even know their names.
22 Nobody had the time to help them, the only thing of 23 it is.
Q Did they issue some kind of a memo out there saving, 25 everybody bring in all documents?
26'
~~
1 A
No; but they did at one time start to come in and 2
go through everybody's desk; they thought they had.been lost.
i II 3
Q Well, keep in mine; I've got your affidavit here, L
4 and what I'm trying to do is get more specific; and if there 5
are no more specifics here, we're going to move right on --
6 A
I did have a list; I did have a list of hanger 4
7 packages I was trying to find, to help them find.
I even have 8
the transmittal slips.
8 Q
You think these are lost hanger packages?
f 10 A
They were.
I do not want to say they have been; i
11 but they have either been found or replaced, so far as I U
know.
13 Q
How do you replace them?
l I
14 j wish I knew how.you replace them.
g is i
Q Do ycu still have this list?
16 A
It's a -- about this big (indicating) and -- oh, 1
17 I don't have the list.
1
[
18 I looked for it the other day. When they made us 18 move last time, a lot of stuff I had was lost.
20 Maybe it'd be a lot easier to explain, if I could 21 tell you what happened on one of these moves:
somebody
)
is not at work that day.
They go in and they take everythina 22 l
23 out and they throw it in boxes -- even their personal stuff 24 there; because those boxes are shuffled and shuttled.
It's a haphazard -- they have put them somewhere and lose them.
e
27 i
Right now under my desk I've get two boxes that 2
belong to and I don't know 3
what in the world they've got in them.
4 We got hanger boxes out in the -- in the halls 5
that belong to somebody; but we don't know who they belong 0
to.
7 Q
Just to clarify here:
when you're saying " hanger 8
packages," are these packages copies of the same ones in 9
DCC?
10 A
No, sir, no, sir.
They are original copies.
11 They do not have these in DCC.
These are the original 12 cards that are made by welding engineering.
They are 13 the original walkdowns made by QC inspectors; they're VCDs:
14 they're inspections,'they're PT inspections.
15 Q
They are not duplicates?
16 A
They're originals.
Some of the weld data cards.
17 They are the originals of everything that's been done on 18 that.
19 Q
If I went on-site and I wanted to ask the most 20 responsible person about this issues what are you doin'7 in trying to locate these things? -- who would be the person I 22 should talk to?
23 A
I would suggest the person who would give you the 24 most accurate descriptiori on how they are going about locating
- c 25 it would be
x 28 I
Q Okay.
2 Let's move on to the next issue --
a 3
MR. IPPOLITO:
I'm sorry.
4 MR. GRIFFIN:
Okay.
5 MR. IPPOLITO:
The way the system was described to 6
me -- and I'm having troubles --
7 THE WITNESS:
U'm-huh.
O MR. IPPOLITO:
-- the way the system was described 9
to me was, engineering, whether it's weld engineering or 10 electrical, whatever-have-you, puts together either a weld 11 design drawing or electrical ISO, or whatever; and when they U
do that, they send it down and have it reproduced.
13 Then it goes and gets a number on it, and'then it's 14 distributed to the satellites.
15 Now -- all right?
-- and from the statellites, 16 people like the craft, welding craft, or the whatever, the 17 electrical craft, they get a work authorization:
put up 18 that hanger, or install that cable.
19 They go to--with that authorization card, they 20 go to their satellite and they say, "I want this package."
21 And then are given the package that contains 22 supposedly all the right information in it, all of the design changes and the revs and all that.
"4
,. -g When they get through putting it together, they take 25 that package -- the package is supposed to be turned in every
29 I
night, as I understand.
Anyway, they return the package back to document 3
the satellite; and it gets filed there.
But one thing they told me is that when they make 5
distribution of the original engineering drawing and any 6
change thereof, the original goes into the vault.
That is what I have been told.
So, you know, I'm here wondering?
9 THE WITNESS:
Yes, you're right, the original goes I
into the vault -- after it has passed through this 11 document path.
12 It doesn't go immediately into the vault.
13 And when they give you a package down in DCC, 14 they give you DCAs, CMCs, NCRs; but what about the VC reports and the PT reports that the inspectors have made?
16 What you've got on these original packages that 17 makes it a catastrophe if you Jost them is you've got -- you 18 don't have copies; you've got the original signatures of the QC inspectors, the weld engineers, of the ANI; you've 20 got the original, signed-off copies.
21 You don't have duplicates.
See, that's what makes 4
m i t --
23 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
24 Q
Did the loss of these packages occur before the 25 satellite system was set up?
30 1
A No.
What had happened was they were transmitting 2
them down there in boxes in the backs of open trucks.
i 1
3 Q
To the satellites?
4 A
To -- not to the satellites, but down to the task 5
forces.
6 Some of them might have gotten lost..
Some of them 7
might have been set in a box here, and nobody knew who it 8
belonged to.
9 Q
But you came up with a specific -- you came up with i
10 a number, here; did you have an indication from somebody that 11 1,400 packages were lost?'
i 12 A
Yes, they talked about it down there for about 13 two weeks. -
14 Q
So they never made it to the task forces?
15 A
Apparently, if they had, they don't know what r
16 happened to them.
They kept saying that there were 15 --
17 and they kept going through these printouts that they got 18 from the computer; a'nd they kept checking them off.
A 19 And eventually, what we did to help locate some 20 of them, we went to all of QC, everybody at QC, went into 21 the vault and they gave them those to work ont and they went j
22 through individually every document that was in there.
And 23 we found some of them misfiled in the vault.
24 Q
.. (~
I thought the computer -- you're talking about i
25
" George"?
3 i
s 31 e
1 I don't think George ci.ne on line until about 2
January of '83: and these documents we're talking about were lost in May of '83?
4 A
George was in -- George-1, I guess it was, George-1,
5 or George-2; I forget what.it was._ But when they came up 6
there, they came in computer printout.
And what they was 7
supposed to be was ISO numbers, line numbers, oainter numbers;
'T 8
you were supposed to be able to go to'one and be able to 8
tell -- they was in hanger order.
Another was in --
10 i
,Q Well, for a brief time here the idea was that they wouldsend'dnesepackagestovarioustaskforces?
11 12 A
Right.
i 13 -
Q
, And they would have the douements there for their l'
use?
15 g
y,,,
16 I
Q And then they decided they were not going to use 17 that system; bring them back in; and when they brought them
~
18 back in to a central document area, they discovered that they 19 bad lost many, many, packages?
A They found that out while they were still down in 21 the field; and we were getting fc.ed-ins from George-1 saying i
22 this hangor package and that hanger package -- and we didn't l
8 have these hanger packages.
i 24 V
j j, ;
I would get the hanger packages'back from the.QC and I would be supposed to make out h tr(nsmittal to send s
f.
I s
y _
fi 4
t
'(
ly l
s
32 a
I
'up the hill to QA'for review, and there was just no order:
2 there was no way you could keep up with it.
3 Q
So you think this guy, M could give us --
4 A
He could tell you --
5 Q
He could tell how it started and when --
6 A
And what it was supposed to do, and I don't know 7
if he'll tell you what it did or not; but there is a man 0
named
-- who, @ and 9
were the ones who were in charge of transmitting 10 them down to our task force.
11 They came down there, they set up their file 12 cabinets, and they cam'e in ene weekend and they went through is all the hanger packages in there; everything was working 14 rather smoothly.
15 Then it started going astray somewhere.
I don't 16 know where it went astray.
But that's when we started 17
-- they started calling for hanger packages that we didn't 18
- have.
And we would send up the hill for those hanger packagec, 19 and they would send those back down to us, t, hat they had 20 already been transmitted down there.
21 This is when the system started breaking down.
22 This is when they started realizing that the hanger packages 23 were missing, when they would come in for the package, and 24 we wouldn't have it; and.we would send the transmittal up the M
hill -- send word up there to bring that package down -- and w
m e e
-s m
33 1
1 they would say:
we can't bring it down, we brought'it down
~
2 last week.
3 You see what I'm saying?
4 Now, this has nothing to do with document control 5
at all, or the document control people.
6 MR. IPPOLITO:
I don't understand.
Do you under-7 stand it?
I want to pursue it.
I'm fuzzy.
J 8
MR. GRIFFIN:
What's fuzzy, I think, is -- I may 9
be wrong -- I think we're looking a brief window in time 10 when they tried to use a system; started to assemble documents 11 moved them out; and then they dec'ided they didn't want that U
system and they brought them back to go to-another system; 13 and then they found out that they'd lost'a lot of stuff; 14 because they,did not maintain control over those-packages 15 MR. IPPOLITO:
I think what I'm hearing now is.
is that they started off with a central place where all the 17 documents were.
They decided that, you know, they'd improve 18 efficiency; and they created three task forces.
8 They said:
let's move the stuff down to the task 20 forces so that it'll be close to them.
21 Then they f'ound.a short while, I guess within a 22 few months or something like that --
23 THE WITNESS:
Within a few weeks.
24 MR. IPPOLITO:
Within.a few weeks they.found that
.f.
.f; 2b to be unsuccessful.
I'thinklat that time they may have l
J l
- ,e
,e 34 a
1 created the satellites.
2 THE WITNESS:
This was prior to the -- this would
~
3 be before -- maybe that's what I'm missing about.
4 MR. IPPOLITO:
Yes?
5 THE WITNESS:
This was before the satellites were 6
created.
7 MR. IPPOLITO:
That's it.
8 THE WITNESS:
See, the satellites didn't come 9
into existence until after the task force had been moved 10 back up the hill.
11 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
3 Q
And they'd already tried to draw packages back in?
13 A
Right.
14 And what was happening was, we were going into 15 the same DCC for our control copi'es.
I would go in there and.
16 I would order CMCs, one CMC; I could go in and maybe order 17 the ISO; we'd have to have the latest rev..
18 I was supposed to be responsible for these.- I 19 would not throw a control copy away; I was to take it_back 20 and trade it on a new one.
You.just do-not throw control 21
. copies away.
22 At this time, now, I want you to understa~nd:- we 23 had a single room up_the hill where-they had all the-isometric 24 1.l?
packadges, all the DCAs, VCDs, everything, filed in this.
,e 25
.And at one time it-had been maintained by ANI but then Brown Y
35 O
r 1
& Root had taken it over.
2 In another building, we had all the hanger packages.
3 One was piping and one was hangers.
And everything was working 4
~ smoothly.
They had the girls in there, they were tracking 5
all the packages; they knew exactly where everything was.
6 Then when this task force thing come into being, I
7 they started breaking those up; and I mean, utter chaos 8
broke loosel 9
They tried to bring all the hangers-down to where 10 they had this work 24 hours2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br /> a day, a QA, a man for the NCRs.
11 They had the ANI.
They had the welding engineer -- all right 19 there.
13 It would have been wonderful, if it had worked, 14 you know.
15 But their method of getting it down there was 16 so haphazard, that's where we fell apart.
17 Q
Do you have any knowledge, is there anybody who 18 has been tasked with trying to identify and recover all these 18 lost packages?
20 A
Yes, but I cannot give you their names.
1 Q
Could give it?
Would he know them?
22 A
I really don't believe he would, because I really 23 don't know.
24 Q
Who could I ask?
25 A
The two men that came up to my office had been 9
36 1
1 assigned to locating these lost documents.
2 Q
Do you know who they worked for?
3 A
That's what I was trying to think.
The only reason 4
I'm really aware of them is I was the only one that tried 5
to help them find them.
Everybody else had their own job 6
and they didn't want to.
7 I'll look and see if I can find the list thev 8
brought, because I wrote their extension number on there.
9 Q
Okay.
We can go right to the heart of this 10 particular matter, if we can find out who's been tasked 11 with trying to locate the lost documents.
U Q
It seems to me like these gentlemen came in there 13 were -- they weren't up from the task force; they weren't 14 a part of QA.
They wore white hats.
That's your engineers.
M Q
Okay.
16 A
So maybe they came cut of engineering department.
17 Q
All right, we'll see if we can find out; if we 18 can't, we may ask you to try to help us find out who,has 19 that job.
I'm sure it's not a secret out there.
20 Is it?
21
'A -
I really don't believe it is.
i 22 Q
Okay.
l 23 A
The men who set i. up, the task forces, they're 24 all gone.
25 he threw l
I 37 I
up his hands and said, I can't take it any more; and he quit.
2 h inherited the job.
3 Q
Who is @
4 g
5 Q
Okay.
6 A
So I really don't know --
7 Q
Okay, we've got a lot of issues here, and I think 8
we've gone as far as we can on that one.
9 Let's go into this concern here on the instance
(/
10 AD4r whe.re you know about the issuance of a control stamp.
Can 11 41 g
you t011 me about that?
%-g 12 You bet I can.
13 As I said, I was the only one authorized to sign 14 for control documents.
I would go down there, I would get 15 it; it would be a round circle and it would have an 83 16 in the middle of it.
And f was in DCC one night lookine at 17 some drawings and they were stamping them with a control 18 stamp that had an 83 printed in the middle of it.
19 And I said, "What's happened?
You know, it's 8
printed in there now, instead of writing it in with a pencil 21 like they been doing?"
And 6 told me that somedody had stolen g
a control stamp.
And that they were using it on things that shouldn't be stamped.
25 Q
Okay, which one was the official one, the one you
38 e
1 had to write it in, or the one that had it printed.
2 Q
Well, up until the printed one came out, it was 3
the one that you wrote in.
4 Q
Go ahead?
5 A
So I didn't think any more about it.
And I was 6
up the hill, I had gone up the hill -- this was at night, now; 7
and I can't remember her last name.
I can 8
find cut what her name is.
9 Q
Okay.
10 A
And a young boy working with her, whose name was 11 golly, when you try to pull people's names out of your 12 head, it's hard to do -- anyway, I know his name as well as 13 I do mine -- well, I'm going to skp the name.
14 Q
Are these DCC people?
15 A
Yes.
16 Q
Clerks?
17 A
She was a reviewer and he was just, I guess you'd 18 call it clerk.
19 I had gotten up there because I had an~ office, my 20 office had been up there; and I had a lot of stuff up there.
21 And I had gone up there that night for something; I hadn't 22 moved everything I had down to the task force yet.
23 And when I walked in, of course, being nice and 24 her being a woman -- we had met each other down in DCC; 'and 25 we were standing there talking.
And I looked over on the
39 6
I table and there sets the control stamp.
2 Okay.
Q 3
And is this back, like, in mid-1983?
4 A
This was while I was in the task force, so it was 5
prior to July; I'd say it was in about February or March.
6 sometime in there.
It was cold.
It was prior to the time 7
that XI went days, while I was nights.
8 Q
Okay.
9 And you asked her about where she obtained the 10 stamp?
11 A
I said, "Where in the world did you get that?"
~
12 And before I even had a chance to ask her, I said, 13 "It's illegal for you to ahve that."
14 And she said, "No, DCC gave it to me.'
15 And I said, "Well, they told me, you know, that 16 one had been stolen down there."
17 And she got real angry. She got real upset at me.
18 She said, "No, DCC had given it to them."
19 Well, I remembered what O had told me.
So 20 I didn't say any more about it right then.
But I got back 21 down the hill and I got to thinking about it.
~
U And at that time Eggggghad just taken over the 23 M and them had -- g had quit; %
job.
24 had taken over.
And my concern was -- I liked qggggg and 25 they had a tendency out there every once in a while
... ~.. _ _
40 4
4, 1
to, if somebody doesn't fit in with their clan and they want 2
to get rid of them, they droo something on them.
3 I actually believed that he was being set up.
4 Q
With the stamps?
5 A
With the stamps.
6 The stamp at that time.
7 Q
One stamp?
8 A
Yes.
9 So, I even expressed my concern to 10 He was the QA down there that I was working with.
11 And I told him I was afraid M was going to be caught with 12
'the stamp, because he had taken over that office; and he was 13 going to be the one to get burned by it.
~
14 Q
Okay, when you say you were concerned about 15 being set-up -
you say here in your affidavit that 16 you sent him a letter concerning the stamp?
17 A
- yes, 18 Q
And then alter the next day, you saw each other, 19 and he said, it's all right, M we've got two of 20 these stamps.
21 A
Right.
22 Q
So M knew that the stamps were with QC 23 in the field, is that right?
24 A
Yes.
What is, the way it actually occurred, M 25 said, well, g if you're so worried about it, Y
s 41 I
~
o 1
why don't you talk to @
2 Well, I didn't get to talk to llllll[ because I left 3
before he came.
I was gone when he got there.
And so I 4
went up to my old Affice and I sat down and I wrote a letter.
5 And I said,4EgggghtI was across the hall and I saw a 6
document control stamp over there; and EEEEk8 has told me that 7
one disappeared out in the field; and that they're using it 8
out in the field.
I said, now, if it is illegal for them t o 9
have this stamp -- that I wanted him to know they had the 10 stamp.
Because if it was illegal for them to have it, then 11 he should know they had it.
12 If it wasn't illegal for them to have it, then, 13 I wouldn't be concerned with it;-but that I thought that he 14 should know that it was there;and it was being used.
15 And I told her then, I said, "You had best get 16 that in the drawer because if ANI comes in here, they're 17 going to raise trouble."
18 And this is mainly what the letter was.
And I told 19 him that it was of no concern to me at the particular time, 20 other than I valued him in his job; and I did not want 21 him having to take -- like I said, I didn't think he knew 22 they were there.
23 Q
He later indicated to you he did know?
24 A
It wasn't the next day, it was the day after that.
t 25 I hadn't gotten any response, and I stayed over, deliverately,
,..w_
,,..*e u
- er-'
e
42 8
I to talk to him.
2 Q
And he said ad given QC two?
3 A
He laughed,-and he said, 4dEEEEB9" he said, " don't 4
worry about it."
He said, gave them to us 5
himse,1f; and he didn't give us just one; he gave us two of 6
them."
7 Q
Okay.
8 A
But that is exactly the way it happened.
I just 9
happened to be up there; I happened to see it; and 1EEEEE had 10 misunderstood. She had thought it had been stolen.
11 And at the time I didn't realize that --what it 12 could be used for.
I didn't analyze.
~
13 Q
So the implication is that QC was misusing these 14 stamps?
Do you still believe that?
15 A
Yes, because they were told -- now, let me get 16 something straight here, now:
You've got a drawing here, 17 and they print it; and it's got the black reduction, because 18 the ISos are reduced; the original ISO has got the stamp 19 on it, open in the middle, with no control number.
20 They would reduce it, then, you've got a black 21 stamp.
They were going in there and they were writing "83"
\\
22 or "005" in there or whatever they wanted in there, without 23 stamping it.
And all of a sudden I said:
anybody could i
24 print a stamp and write in the middle of it.
We want 25 original stamp.
So they sent a letter out sayi-e
43 1-back all of the documents that had been fixed like that and 2
they were going to restamp them.
P 3
Well, we've got an office up here with thousands 4
and thousands c; ISos in it, with this method of stamoing it.
5 s
Apparently what they had' decided was this was a big project, i
6 to'try to replace all the control copics.
4 7'
And they gave them a stamp where it was written i
6 in red with the 83; they stamped over it; I know they did a
9 because I've used the stamp.
~10 Now, they could also, when you think about it now, 11 they hsd a copy come in there for anything else, they could u
have stamped it'and written any number in the world in there.
13 -
But we used -it more for 83 than anything else.
3 14 Q
Okay.
15 You are saying the potential was there to misuse-16 these stamps?
17 A
You bet it was there!
18 Q
Did the possession of these control stamps by-19 QC violate procedures that existed at that time?
30 A
Yes, it did.
N 21 Because ANI was turning them back.
Et Q
Okay.
I 23 Did -
does QC still have-these stamps?
Do they 24 still have them?
25 A-
- They' don't have to use them any more, because 4
G ww,e_,-,p-
- =r-"M*+-**
" '~
- en.
w ra w -
~m y
.,--w---
m-rp
- ~~
w- - - w ~ ~ -
e-w
-,. m ev-y a w g,--4y-,-
-v-p
-y y-v wn,m y,w,
e 1
all the documents, apparently, have been replaced.
2 Q
Well, what system is --
3 A
Now they get it straight from DCC with the 83 4
printed inside it.
5 Q
Okay, so QC no longer has stamps that they can 6
use for this purpose-is that right?
7 A
So far as I know, they don't.
8 Q
Okay.
9 Is there any way that you can come-up with the name i
10 of that QC clerk whom you saw back in 83 with the stamp?
t 11 A
Yes, there is.
I can find out what her last name 12 is Her first name is @
13 Q
Okay.
14 A
And her little boy's name is qgggk 15 Q
Well, let's not go any further --
16 (Laughter) 17 You are saying that the ANI through the change that 18 he instituted as relates to these documents caused the 19 stamp that they were using back then to be discontinued?
20 A
No, it wasn:,
they weren't stamping it; they 21 were just putting it jn there.
22 ANI determined that anybody --
.J 23 Q
So they required a change?
24 A
So they said they weren't going to approve any 25 more that did not have the stamp in red ink on it.
i b
O
.c.,
,en m.
45 1
And this is when they did this other.
And they told me, 2
Iwouldtakethedrawingsupto1$llEdhfI found one that had 3
the old black thing on it with the number written in it; 4
I'd carry it up to (lBEp and she would stamp it with the red 5
stamp.
6 Q
Now, these stamps -- just to make sure 1 understand 7
che stamps that the QC clerk had, the renegade stamps, 8
were they black or red?
8 A
They were just a stamp and they'd stamp it-in red.
10 Q
Okay.
11 And they since changed the stamp?
12 A
No, it's just that they have finally, eventually, 13 got all of the documents stamped that they wanted stamped.
14 Now, at that time I knew watching them work down 15 in DCC that they were writing the number in there.
So as 16*
far as-those documents were concerned, I didn't have any 17 guilt feeling about using the stamp; because I was certain 18 in my own mind that that had originally been a control 18 drawing.
But then as I have gotten into docu' ment control 21 I can see there are many other things seals could be used 22 for.
23 They could be used on a -- if they lost a package, 24 and they wanted to replace that drawing, they could transfer that stamp.
/
~
46 1
Q Okay, the problem then relates to misuse of the 2
stamps; it's over now; is it not?
3 A
Yes, I think it'is.
4 Q
Okay.
5 Who would be our best source of information to 6
find out, besides g and M who are some other 7
people that would know about these stamps?
8 A
-- now, these are peopel you can't 9
find at Brown & Root any more.
10 Q
6 you say is now at TEDCO?
11 A
He just started the first of April.
12 Q
Okay.
13 A
And g gone.
And h definitely 14 knows about them.
15 Q
Okay.
16 If I asked him about it, do you think he'll tell me 17 about it?
18 A
I am sure he would.
I don't really believe that 19 g -- well, I can't say that because -- I think the world 20 of g, but I just don't know.
21 Ncw, the boy, 6, is working in welding engineering 22 And he was in there the night I had the tiff with her now.
23 over the stanp.
t 24
- Now, 25 Q
A QC clerk?
47 1
1 A
Yes.
And 2
Q Okay.
3 A
They can verify that, because in fact 4
wouldn't use them.
5 Q
She wouldn't?
6 A
No, sir.
dyg Q
Now, in your affidavit here you say, you indicate 7
/8 a problem in the field relating to the hydro task force 9
in preparing for hydro tests.
How did this relate to the 10 misuse of the stamps?
11 A
Well, now, that -- you're talking about the drawing 12 where they used the out of rev drawing? -- to -- where they 13 took out a small piece of pipe?
14 Q
Yes, right.
15 A
Okay, now, what had hapoened was, the girl'that 16 handled hydro was working in the same office I was; and 17 we had a laugh over this.
18 We had a CMC come in there taking out a piece of 19 pipe because it interferred with the hydro.
But before thev 20 could do the hydro, they had come in with another CMC and 21 had added the pipe, because they thought it had been left off.
22 So they had to call up the hydro again and go back and take 23 the pipe out.
24 Now, what I would like to show in that is that when 25 you don't work with the latest revof a drawing, you don't
-m e
,~,
48 e
I go to DCC --
2 A
You just stamp it yourself?
3 A
Stamp it yourself --
4 Q
You don't know --
i 5
A If you don't check DCC's book -- this is the, i
6 actually, doesn't have anything to do with the stamp; it's 7
just that if you don't get a complete package.
If you don't 8
go down there and you don't get the full package out of 9
DCC --
10 Q
Um-huh.
11 A
-- for your drawings, and your CMCs and ycur DCAs 12 and everything, showing that thing, what the latest revs 4
13 are; then you don't know -- if you just go.down there and' 14 get one and it lays in the office six months,:and somebody 15 comes along and picks it up, you don't know if you're 1
16 working with the latest rev.
17 That's why they had to set up the satellites, was 18 MMM to eliminate some of this.
Q SkOA}AkIcTT 19 Q
Okay, tell me about the upgrading and downgrading'
]
- l $
20 if piping spools?
21 3
g,.ve had piping spools.come in there, particularly 22 4
spools and flanges, that started out as a Class-3, and 23 they've changed them to Class-2.
l 24 Q
How did they do this?
i 25 A
They just put on there -- they just changed it; 9
. ~.
.~
49 i
l'.
i 1
I the QC inspector changed it from a Class-2 to a Class-3.
l 2
Now, there are people who can tell you more about 3
this than I can; but if you're running along a line and i
j 4-you got a Class-2 and.it connects into a Class
'5, there's a 5
point there where it changes from a safety-related to 1
6 nonsafety-related.
Now, there's one Class-2.has to be i
7 continuous form end to the other; eventually, that flange --
j
'8 you'll get a pipe coming out the middle of this; that's a 8
Class-2.
10 The reasons for changing-it,;I am assuming they've 11 i
got a reason for changing it.
It starts out as safety-U related, then they downgrade'it to a nonsafety-related; 13 non-ASME, it does not have to be reviewed by ANI, then.
l' Q
I see.
15 Well, do you know of any particular systems, i
16 piping systems, that are quality or safety sys' tem that you 17 personally know have been downgraded so that they would 1
i 18 miss that ANI review?
l 18
~
A I would guess a flange now and then. 'Or we had a 20 system go through here last month; I don't remember the-1 21 i
number on it; it would be. easy to trace;'because we-got three.
4 Et flanges on a spool; two of them are downgraded to non-ASME 88 and put in the vault., and one'is sent to ANI.
24 I've had several instances of that.- Now, they-4 j
--would be easy to trace, because on the transmittal 1that is i
1 4
50 I
sent to the vault because each flange has --
2 I understand how ir works,4dlIIPP-Q
^nd in ^n 3
instance like this and in this type of concern, what we 4
would need to do is to try to isolate one of them so we 5
could go have a look at it.
6 A
Okay, that I will have to do; I can do.
I can go 7
to my books, my transmittalc; I can get those numbers.
8 Q
Okay.
If you can give us an example of one or 8
a couple that have been upgraded or downgraded, we can look 10 at them and see if what they're doing has engineering 11 approval and whether it's a legitimate thing they're doing, 12 or if they are just trying to bypass the ANI.
13 A
Like I said in the last month we've had several 14 come through like that.
15 Q
Okay.
16 g
I wish h would talk to you.
1 Q
Well, I tell you, when we kick off an interview, 18 we're liable to talk to anybody on site.
19 A
Because she has got information on all of this.
20 Q
A lot of times investigations or inspections start 21 out with people who are willing to take the risk of coming forward and telling us of their concerns.
Once ve have 23 a starting point, then we normally go on cite, wherever we need to go -- whether it's vendors or on-site -- and then we 25 start interviewing large numbers of people; anybody that
51 I
might have information.. We usually are able to resclve these 2
issues.
3 But if the people we talk to won't talk to us, 4
they won't tell us the truth, then we've got problems.
5 But we've found in general if we talk to enough people, 6
and the pecole that we're talking to realize.we're not just going to be talking to them, but we're talking to all their 8
people who work with them; usually people will shoot 8
straight with us.
They will tell us the truth -- not always, 10 but a lot of times.
11 And we usually end up getting our answers if we n
talk to enough people.
13
- A Well, I'm sure she'd talk to you if she were 14 approached; but she will not come forward.
15 Q
Okay.
16 A
But she's been in document review now for three 17 years.
And she's very thorough.
18 Q
Okay.
We'll keep her in mind.
19 A
She can give you numbers, everything.
She can 20 give you everything -- everything I can't furnish you, she 21 can give you.
dbbVS Cd Q
You make reference in your affidavit here to 4\\b b 23 a document, weld data card, you believe was outrightly
. falsified by a QC inspector named 25 A
Right.
.me em d
ll 52 I
Q You say an NCR was written against -- was written 2
by a reviewer egainst this entry he made, and you say -- is 3
it the weld data card that passed through your hands?
4 A
My desk is here.
Right here beside me was g 5
desk.
Right back over here facing the wall was 6
desk.
They were discussing this card.
Thev 7
had discovered that the PT report on it, the dates did not 8
coincide with that inspection date.
9 So wrote up an NCR, okay, her and 10 together wrote up an NCR.
11 Q
I'm already somewhat aware of this issue, and what 12 I need to do is figure out what you know about it.
13 You saw it?
14 A
I saw them sitting there when he came in and 15 argued with her about it.
16 Q
Okay.
You say that had written on the 17 data card that it was signed in error;.is that correct?
18 A
When he came back, after he went into' 19 office, when he came back, he came back with a notation 20
" signed in error".
21 Q
And this had been signed by 22 A
Yes, it had.
23 Q
Okay.
24 And the NRC was voided'by 25 A
Yes, I saw the document when it came through.
53
~
J 1
Q Okay.
2 A
I had seen it before and I saw it after.
3 Q
Okay.
And it's your belief that this was falsifi-4 cation?
5 A
Yes, it was.
6 That the man had either falsified the documentation 7
or he had signed and not gone back down and looked at it.
8 They're supposed to inspect that every time.
9 But did basically the same thine that 10 did there, and they fired or 11 falsification of documentation.
12 Q
When did that occur?
13 A
That occurred--- -
14 Q
Hold it.
I think we're going to get to that later 15 on.
16 A
Yes.
17 Q
Okay.
~5a~r is You said in your affidiavit here that you remember 4 ]-43 an instance'in which craft bootlegged a rework without
" Y\\
19 9
20 documentation at all?
And where craft switched about service 21 water system from Unit 2 into Unit 1; they just used the old 22 documentation?
23 A
That's right.
24 Q
How did you find out about this?
f
^
25 A
Well, they came in and with a document that had l
54 I
been reviewed prior to the time that -- we had, well, we had, 2
you know, we had Unit 1 and Unit 2.
And it was a Unit 2 3
package.
4 And said, " Change it to a Unit 1 package.
5
-- that they had transferred it from Unit 2 to. Unit 1.
6 So instead of doing anything else, they just 7
changed it on the cover sheet, see.
And this made me wonder:
B here we got a spool, we got a valve in the middle of that 9
spool; they were going to transfer it using the old to documentation and the old signatures that was installed 11 at Unit 2, how could they move it to Unit 1?
U Q
Okay.
Is there any way we can identify where this 13 is now?
Is there any you can tell us to help us find this?
14 Or is this just something you heard about?
15 A
No. No. No.
It came right through my hands there.
16 Q
This was back in
'79, right?
17 A
Oh, no, hon, thi s was -- this is where I am right 18 now.
19 Q
Oh, is that right?
23 A
It's been several months ago.
21' Q
Can you think of any way we can identify that?
22 A
Yes, I can ask f she'll give me the number.
23 Q
Now, I don't want you -- keep in mind confiden-24 tiality.
I don't want to send you back over there with a 25 whole bunch of tasks to perform.
55
.1 And they'll say, "What's % doing?
She's 2
looking into every problem we've had."
3 You understand?
4 A
Yuh.
5 Q
I don't want to task you too hard.
6 A
Well, I'll put it like this:
if you really want I
to check into it and you want to know the ISO number and 8
the whole business --
9 Q
I want to find --
10 A
To find that particular system --
11 Q
-- that valve and spool; I want to find all the U
paper that goes with it.
13 A
Okay, well, can give you that informa-14 tion.
15 Q
Okay.
16 A
So I asked them, I said, "Why?
How can you do this? "
17 And somebody had said now -- I heard this myself -- I won't 18 say who right now I heard it from because now it's vague --
19 but, they said, "Well, you egt it on both sides of the 20 valve and move the whole thing over and weld it."
21 That's reasonable, but still -- but the documentatic a 22 on that was originally bought-off in Unit 2 some time ago.
U Q
Okay.
E' A
Out of our old backlog files down the hill.
MR. IPPOLITO:
You said tnis paperwork went through e
o
- ~
~
8
56 o
I you?
2 THE WITNESS:
Yes.
3 MR. IPPOLITO:
Did they actually line out the 4
"2" -- they lined through "2"? -- in Unit 2, which was 5
changed to read " Unit 1"?
6 THE WITNESS:
Yes.
On the front of every drawing 7
is a list of documents inside that package; they marked out 8
the "2" and put a "1".
9 Now, on the document, itself, on the -- they had to 10
, mark out on that document and initialed it and dated it, 11 when it was marked through and changed.
U In other words, looking at it, you would think, 13 well, somebody put " Unit'2" down there instead of " Unit 1".
14 BY.MR. GRIFFIN:
LS Q
Just a typographical error?
16 A
Just a typographical error; that's what it would 17 appear te be.
18 Q
But you feel certain that this whole thing actually 19 got picked up --
20 A
I know it did.
I know it did.
21 MR. IPPOLITO:
And this marking-out should still be U
there?
23 THE WITNESS:
It's there.
24 MR. IPPOLITO:
Okay.
25 TH'E WITNESS:
It's still there.
It'll-be there as
57 1
~
I long as the document exists, because it's got, you know, 2
signature on it.
It's got-the origina'l signatures on it.
l
'3 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
Q-2 i
4 Q
The next part of your affidavit goes into conversa-N DIM 5
tions you've heard between craft and engineers that' relate
~
i 6
to craft making hardware fit; and then they just have the 7
engineers come along and sign off on it.
8 A
Yes, what had happened, between the craft -- this 3
9 is what it all boils down to:
they go out and they will start i
10 to do a job, and maybe,it won't exactly fit like they think i
j 11 it should, or they might put something right there, never E
considering the fact that that spot was left open for
)
13 something else to go there.
1 i
14 Q
Um-huh.
i 2
-They'd make it fit and then they'd call the.
16 engineers to approve?
17 A
They would come down and they would look at it, 1
18 and then they would say, as-built,.and as stamped on the 19 drawings, as-built.
j so Q
Yuh.
4, -
i j
21 Well, I know the asbuilt is -- it's my understanding I
E that asbuilt also gets on some of these draw 1ngs.by other 23 1
means for legitimate reasons?
l 24 A
Yes, they do.
26 Q
So, can you think of any instances,.any specific O
58
~
i 1
1 instances, where you've seen -- I know'you've heard'the talk- -
2 but do you know of any specific instances where this was 1
}
i_
3 1
done; where it was constructed first by craft _and then j
4 the engineers were asked to come in and approve it later j
5 on?
6 A
I've just seen it go through my hands.
I can't j
7 give you any documents, I can't give you any specifics, other t
8 than -- I wasn't thinking in terms of numbers or anything l
9 else -- I was just saying -- in many instances after it has J
10 been put on th'ere asbuilt, it created a-nonconforminq
}
11 condition, and they had to move it again.
i 12 j
Q Right.
2
{
13 A
Now, let me give.you just a -- not a specific --
i
}
14 but this is something that was discussed on the bus going i
j 15 home.
1 j
16 This guy come up there and he says, " Boy, I nearly l
17 got myself in trouble the other day."
He-was the' driver.
18 He says, "We were just drilling away on this wall, and all II of a sudden I noticed that it said -- that there was 20
' electrical embedded in the wall'" -- so he goes to his i
21 supervisor and confesses what he's~done and the supervisor 22 kind of gave him kind of a hard'look, you know, like he was l
23 really-going to get tough with him.
24 And then all of a sudd'en he started grinning and 25 said, "well, you lucked out this_ time. We put that up~there 9
, ce m me e, e
,4
'**en" g
r
59 I
to keep them from putting anything else up there."
Because 2
they had a"rpecific thing they ha'd to go there and they had 3
put that on there.
There was no electrical embedment at all 4
in that wall.
5 Q
O$ey just wanted to make sure --
6 A
That nobody put something up there.
7.
(Laughter) l 8
These are things that if you do go out there 9
and ask, and you do have the people with the knowledge, 10
,they will clarify that for you.
Okay,4llllll(Idon'twanttomisleadyouor 11 Q
/,
12
, them or anybody else:
'a lot of people that talk to NRC, i
i
'i3
, they '3ay, you know, they point out and say:
" bad pipes."
14 Now, the NRC can keep this information in mind, 15 and,that there's this as-built thing is a good example, 16 and we can alert our inspectors to it.
7md when they're 17 doing their routine inspections, if they see something that o
18 looks suspicious. having the information that this improper 19 procedure is sometimes employed by craft, it can be a tip-off 20 to them.
21 But there's no way we can go out there and search Z2 through all the records, and search threitgh all the hardware 23 out there and --
24 A
Oh, lands, I know that!
25 Q
So I appreciate your alerting us to it; and if you -
..m.,
e-t* *
- 60 I
come across where you know someb'ody, somebody's name that 2
you can give us that can direct us to the specific particular 3
instance where this has occurred; and we can go talk' to the 4
4-person, and get those papers, or we can go to the hardware; 5
we.11 do something about it.
6 A
Right.
7 Q
I just don't want to mislead you into thinking 8
that we're going to send 500 inspectors down there and 9
they're going to someh'ow come out'--
10 A
No, I'm thinking more or less in terms of 11 talking to some of the engineers who are concerned.
I've U
heard them voice this.
13 Q
Okay.
l' A
I am not talking about' going down and looking at j
15 the pipe.
Ask:
Has this ever happened?
They'll tell you.
1 I
16 if it's happened or not; and they'll tell you where it's 17 happened.
18 Q
They will?
3 A
Yes.
There's some of them out there that will; 20 you bet they will.
21 Q'
22 Well, why would-they be telling on themselves?
1 A
Because they're not going to go forward and offer 23 you information, but they're pretty concerned.
7 24 j
.Q Is that right?
25 A
They are concerned.
?t I
F gr
,i4gy y
+*rt
-v
-~w--
Y1T-=
f' y'
-TT
61 a
I Q-Okay.
2 g,11, we.11 keep that in mind.
3 A
And I really believe if you ask them that they 4
will not try to cover up anything and'they will tell the 5
truth.
6 Q
Okay.
7 MR. IPPOLITO:
The engineer is the only one authorized 8
to stamp "as-built"?
8 THE WITNESS:
The as-bt ilt is stamped on af ter the 10 engineer has approved it in the condition that it's in.
II My main concern is:
they've got a set of drawings i
out there sent to them by Gibbs & Hill (phonetic).
13 MR. IPPOLITO:
Right?
14 THE WITNESS:
Okay, and a craftsman does not know 15 how much stress or --
MR. IPPOLITO:
I appreciate that.
I BY MR. GRIFFIN:
I dIIIEEEksometimesanengineercanvoidanNCR Q
19 but just saying "as-built"?
That's one of the possibilities, 20 is it not?
21 A
I know one got voided; beided it.
22 wrote it.
And reworded it and revised it n
and revised it, until it's no longer what she wrote.
24 MR. IPPOLITO:
I was just trying to get clear in 25 I I
my mind:
what you said is an engineer is called down to look
1-at this thing; and he.'ll say:
Okay, as-built.
That means 2
that he goes back and writes out something that says s
3 "as-built"?
4 THE WITNESS:
He will sign, he will sign the weld 1
5 data card.
6 MR. IPPOLITO:
Okay.
As-built?
7 THE WITNESS:
Yes.
I 8
MR. IPPOLITO:
The engineet has to do that?
9 THE WITNESS:
Yes, he does.
I f
10 MR. IPPOLITO:
Okay.
l 4
11 -
THE WITNESS:
Now, actually, I guess-maybe I should j
U clarify myself on this point.
i 13 They used to take all of those changes in-14 procedureb and send them to Gibbs & Hill, who would then look f
15 at the overall picture and determine:
yes, this was~a safe 16 place to put this.
j 17 Now -- it would take 2 or 3 days to have to come 18 back -- they have gone around that now; and*everbody's right 19 there on site; they are revised by an engineer who is not
[
20 looking at.an entire, overall, picture.
4 21 MR. IPPOLITO:
I gotcha.
THE WITNESS:
That'sd what I was trying to bring f
j 22 23 out.
24.
f BY MR. GRIFFIN:
25 Okay.
g 1
- l
o
+
63
\\
l 34gt c M, in your affidavit you have a -- you describe 1
McT\\
2 the work of a particular QC inspector named M who had 7k > ' l#b 3
not been trained --
4 A
,5 Q
Yes.
~
6 He had not been trained ar.d you use him as an 7
example of somebody who had been given the test and the 8
answers to the test 9
A Yes.
10 Q
Did he tell you this?
11 A
Yes, he did.
U Q
Okay.
13 A
He most assuredly did.
And you won't find him 14 now unless you go looking for him; because they picked him 15 up yesterday and put him out in the field.
16 Q
Okay.
17 But, let me ask you this:
we've got your under-18 standing of the situation, and I don't think we need to 19 explore it thoroughly; but I need your opinion on this:
20 If we go talk to
, will he --
21 A
He certainly will.
22 Q
So far as his training to read drawings or his 23 qualifications --
24 A
He certainly will.
25 Now, this is the thing:
they started firing him.
l
64 1
And he's quite verbal with them.
I mean, he doesn't -- and 2
he told them, you know, his first hydro he performed alone; 3
you can't perform a hydro by yourself.
And they asked him, dei llll asked him, "Well, how 4
5 in the world did you make a good grade on this test, if 6-you hadn't been trained?"
7 He said, "It's easy to do if you're given the P
8 answers beforehand."
9 He had gone out there and had out hold taas and 10 referenced them to CMCs that didn't even pertain to that 11 system.
In other words, he did not know what he was doing.
U And they had two men working full-time for about 13 six months backfitting and going.back and reinspecting 14 everything that he had ever touched.
2 And they set him up there in our office, supposed 16 to be helping this girl with the hydros; and he sets there 17 all day long and he draws pictures because he's got 18 nothing to'do.
Once in a while he might have a little 19 project that he can do.
He is -- they won't fire him.
20 They don't fire him.
21 Anybody else is out the gate that does what he 22 does; and he sets there and he actually laughs at them.
23 And come through yesterday.
Friday 24 he was in jail.
Monday he didn't come to work, or didn't 25 call and say why he wasn't.
And
~ame through
,-e,
~
vs I
cnd ono of the guys ocid, 4WIINIlllwhydon't you fire him?"
2 He says, "I can't."
3 They sent out a notation around, it says, "Do not 4
illegally park in the parking lot, or you're going to get' 5
terminated."
6 So they called us there the next day, he had 7
deliberately parked crossways in the parking lot, se"eino if s.
8 they were going to fire him.
9 Q
Okay.
10 A
His father has one of the Olympic --
11 Q
Is that right?
Sa U
Now, in your affidavit here,'vou make some Mt Acn 13 characterizations that -- of some of the managers, 6 h-Y 14 and up there; and we already have your testimony 15 adequately preserved in here.
16 There is one question I would like to ask you:
You indicate thatM had put a freeze on anybody sending 17 18 records out of the vault or reviewing records in the vault.
19 A
Yes, sir.
4 20 Q
They must juct stand there and look at them and then get a note from M irst?
21 22 A
They got a bunch of things like this laying on the 2
counter --
24 Q
You have to sign --
25 A
You have to carry it in and give it to him and get
..~
66 1
him to sign giving you authorization to go pull that out.
2 Q
okay, now, is that to take it out of the vault?
3 A
That's just to look at it.
You can't take it 4
out of the vault.
5 Q
Can you make a copy?
6 A
That's just to look at it.
7 Q
Jurt to look at it?
At the counter?
8 A
At the counter, stand there at the window.
Q Now,dlEIl$bhasbeenput in another position; is 9
10 this thing still in effect?
11 A
Yes, it is.
U It's in effect and now they've got it so that 13 only a few out of each office can go down there and pull.
14 And you've got to have those documents. 1llllllb 15 said, "I've exceeded the amount by 10 people" -- he has 10 16 more people on there than they wanted.
17 They only want one person authorized to go down there 18 and lool at that stuff.
19 Now, what it is, is, when you're reviewing a 20 document, you have to know that you got the right serial 21 number on there, and got the right valve number on there, 22 and everything.
23 And if there's any question, if anything doesn't 24 coincide, when you have your precedures and you can see 25 what certain kind of pip.e was to be used, then you can go down
67 I
there and look and see if information that had been left off 2
tha't thing.
3 But only a few people can do that now.
4 I was down the day before yesterday'when one of the 5
QC-inspectors come down there to check something and found 6
out -- you're going to have to take that and get some 7
signatures on it -- and he said, all I want to do is look 8
at it 8
And the guy from Cyant. was standing there behind 10 us.
11 And he stood and argued with them a little bit, 12 and then he got real mad and reached over and crumpled it, 13 like that, and says, here's what you can do with this!
14 (Laughter)
U And threw it in the wastebasket.
16 And the guy from Cygna just cracked up.
17 Q
Let me read here for a minute.
You write of the Crow 18 g
framing and firing of 18
((({
(Pause) 20 A
I knew Alan very well.
I worked with him on nights 21 for a long 'ime.
t Q
Do you know if he filed any grievance with the 23 Labor Department?
24 A
No, he didn't.
And he has not been able to find 25 a job.
He's working on a chicken farm.
He cut his finger off
+
amm.
..>-,e4 m
I the other night.
2 Q
Oh, he's the guy.s 3
Do you know what the official reason for firing him 4
was?
5 A
Yes, sir.
6 Q
Falsifying documentation?
7 A
They said he was.
8 He was, like I said, did exactly what 9
M id; only they had set him uo.
10 He had gone down and looked at a flange and he 11 had written a nonconforming condition on it, and assigned it 12 an NCR number.
13 They came along and they reworked the flange and 14 the nonconformance that he had shown no longer existed; 15 because the flange was reworked.
But it created another 16 nonconf orming
- condition, and another NCR was written on it.
17 In fact, two other NCRs were written on it.
18 So they came to M -- and I talked to M - and they came 19 to lllg and they said, well, this is no longer in existence; 20 we've got to get this NCR signed-off.
And there were two 21 other NCRs on it.
22 So he wrote, he referenced down at the bottom, 23
" reference per NCR," and give an NCR number; and then he 24 signed.
25 And they fired him for falsification of documentatio n 8
l 69 I
saying that he had signed off all of the hold points that 2
were on that flange; when, in reality, he had only signed 3
off that one NCR.
4 And he had no chance for defense or-anything else.
5 Now, if they go in there, I'm sure they're going 6
to find this exactly the way it happened; but, he was out the 7
gate, fired, and put on his termination papers " fired for 8
falsification of documentation."
And it is there on his 9
records, I know, because I work in the time office on 10 weekends, and I pulled them out and I looked at it, seeing 11 what they had written on there.
U And I've been concerned ever since he got fired.
13 Q
And he told you the details that you related in 14 your affidavit?.
Is that right?
M A
Yes.
16 Q
Okay.
17 A
And I've got the number of the NCR.
18 Q
Okay, can you provide us with-that number?
19 A
has it.
20 Q
Now the last thing in your affidavit here relates 21 to about how was stashed; they checked him when 22 he was going out for official documents?
23 A
- Well, had told me about that.
24 Q
Did ]llIED see, know, or have personal knowledge 2
of them putting the documents on him?
16 1
Or was he just speculating?
2
.A He may have been speculating.
After he told me' 3
what he did, I went in and pulled 4
termination papers.
And it basically occurred as he said.
5 It didn't have in there that M had etrried it out 6
for them.
7 Q
Okay.
8 A
But, I'm going to tell you what the termination 9
paperes said:
that had gone to safety, had went 10 to safety, and told them that he had been seen putting 11 documents in his personal belongings when he left; and asked u
for a search of the car.
13 And when they went up and searched the car, they 14 found them in the trunk of the car; and they fired him for 15 theft.
16 Q
Have you talked to gabout this?
17 A
No, I haven't, he's not here.
18 Q
But you think he got set up?
19 A
I know he did.
EL Q
Do you know anybody that saw, heard or was there when O stashed on him?
21 22 A
was there.
Nc.
23 (Laughter) l 24 Q
I am trying to find out --
i 25 A
They had told him -- during the questioning out there j
G
-w,
-g
,g
.-n-,,-
71 1
you question
- and he may tell you where he heard 2
it.
3 Q
Okay.
4 A
That would be the only way that I would know to 5
trace it back to its source.
6 Q
Okay.
7 Well, I think that's as far as we need to ao with 8
that one now.
The affidavic pretty well explains the 9
situation as you know it to be third-hand.
10 Let's go into the other affidavit here, this is 11 dated April 6, right?
E You all completed it today?
~
13 Ji Yes.
14 Q
All right.
15 (Pause) 16 Now, you said when we got together today, these 17 are things that have occurred since you made your original 18 affidavit?
19 A
Yes.
20 Q
okay.
21 Let me read for a second here.
M Allg #06 22 (Pause) dQJJN
~~~
23
~ I've been reading your second affidavit, here, and 24 it's well-written and it seems thorough.
The bulk of the 25 affidavit appears to indicate a change in procedures.
e s
72
=
1 A
Yes.
j 2
Q And you believe that this change is going to 3
result in a bypass of certain reviews that relate to 4
worker qualifications, material, traceability,'waterial
~
4 5
numbers; and-this review bypass, in your estination, is-not 6
-- this means the packages would not be checked in accordance t
7 with crocedure?
4 I
8 A
That's right.
9 I
mean, they won't be.
1 10 Q
Okay.
I mae--
11 And you say that, in this affidavit, that pioing U
packages have not been sent to ANI since September of '837 13 A
They had not up until I started checking -- when 14 they released them, I started going in and pu'lling my ISOs 15 and found they had been in file without' documentation; and.
16 I began with' February and they've been taking piping packages i
17 over there.
They were backlogged in my file.
That's.when 18 they started taking them over there and that's when they 19 found they had'been filing them without all the documentation 20 being closed.
21 Q
Under this new concept they bypass N5?
22 A
QES review, we're going to bypass; then it's going 23 to go --
24 Q
Straight to ANI?
25 A
It's going to go into the file for the N5 group to I
4
~
,_ n..,.
73 1
N5, as a full package concept; and all of this, when everythir o 2
is completed like that, then it's all to be sent to them; 3
they're combining two jobs into one.
4 Q
They go to ANI --
5 A
And then to the vault.
6 Q
And then to the vault.
7 They don't have any training, you understand, of 8
the'N5 group telling them what to look for when they 9
review --
10 Q
Okay.
Let me tell you,llllllEP it's laid out 11 very clearly, the points you're trying to say here in the U
13 And what I'm going to have to do or Mr. Ippolito 14 is going to have to do, is we're going to have to find 15 somebody who is already familiar with the Comanche Peak system 16 for document review.
17 And if the NRC has not already been appraised of 18 this change --
19 A
Okay.
20
-- they will be appraised of it now.
And NRC will 21 have to evaluate whether this is a reasonable concept that meets the needs or the requirements that they've already 23 committed to do.
24 Q
Now, let me say this:
we didn't have time to put 25 this in the affidavit -- but they started their procedural
74 I
changa, in fact, today.
2 Q
Okay.
3 A
They were going to start the other day but the 4
NRC they said moved into the conference room.-
~
5 (Laughter) 6 MR. GRIFFIN:
Is that right?
7 MR. IPPOLITO:
That's where we're located.
8 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
9 Q
Well, I don't see any real need for us to oc into 10 thi's; you've explained it very well.
11 A
Right.
12 Q
And we have the information and we will evaluate 13 it.
14 Now, whether it constitutes a problem, if they're 15 entitled to do that -- all this, you know, the NRC will 16 examine --
17 A
Right.
18 Q
-- and a decision will have to be made.
19 A
Right.
20 Q
Now, in an instance like this, I'm not sure it 21 will result in a report being issued.
Usually these are 22 handled rather informally -- if this is a change of procedure; 23 I m sure you're right:
they probably are going to the 24 whole package concept.
25 But whether it complies with the requirements the
7.5 1
NRC makes, we'll evaluate.
2 A
Right.
That's good.
3 Q
You also indicate in here came to 4
the office and removed the manuals for the QES final review.
5 A
Yes.
6 Q
Okay, now, that is in conjunction with this 7
procedural change?
8 A
Up until today they had been reviewing out of 9
procedure.
After today and the new procedures are installed, 10 they will be in procedure; but up until this time we've 11 been reviewing out of procedures.
12
- Q The affidavit does state are affected here; I
13 noticed that; that will make it easy for us to evaluate that.
14 And you say, as of today there are no longer 15 any procedures for final review, but they will be along?
16 A
I don't know they'll be available -- I don't know 17 what procedures are going to be changed, whether it's going 18 to be all the procedures, or just the method for doing it.
19 Because they have shut us out.
20 In other words, and 21 myself are -- we haven't been included in the new proceder:1 --
22 Q
And this whole package concept will extend to 23 hanger packages, too?
24 A
Yes.
25 Q
Do you expect they would extend it to other things?
O o
e-
vv o
I A
No, just hangers and piping.
2 Q
And no procedures have been written to --
3 A
They've been written, I suppose; I don't know what 4
they are about; but they have not been made known.
5 Q
And you indicate also in the affidavit there's 6
been a change on-site where packages were lost, they apparently found some of them; and they are looking 8
A Yes.
I have a list of those.
Q If that develops into a problem, in other words,--
10 A
I'll have to find them or --
II Q
Okay, that's not really something that we're u
ready to get into right now.
If you've lost documentation 13 temporarily, hopefully, it will be found'.
14 You don't have any reason to believe somebody 15 threw them away?
16 A
No, I don't.
17 I just think that -- well, I can't say that; 18 because they were in the file.
I put them in the file.
19 And whenever they switched them, the evening that I left, 20 and they switched them from my files into that entire 21 package system.
22 Q
Okay.
23 Another thing here that concerns me, you say in 24 the affidavit here, that following ANI review of certain 25 items, they are removed from packages and placed in a large
7
,7 n
I manilla envelope and it's marked " historical".
2 Are these voided documents?
i 3
A Yes, sir.
4
.Q Are they documents that no longer have any 4
i 5
relationship to that package?
6 A
No, everything has a relationship to the package, j
7 The end result is, what you will be looking at, if you don't i
8 look inside of those voided packages, what you're looking at 8
would be the latest 10
)
Q Okay.
Are we talking about a lot of the documents 11 that are going into the voided -- being voided?
12 A
Yes, everything but the latest, everything but 13 the current --
14 Q
Okay.
i is Now, when they're marked." historical" does that i
16 mean they are going to be placed in permanent storage?
17 A
I don't know what happens to them.
18 Q
well, that's the question I have.
4 18 A
They're supposed to -- that's supposed to happen.
Q Okay, well, let's assume that it is, unless we 21 develop --
22 A
Well, let's assume that they're left in the 23 j
packages; and somebody goes in there and'they pull things, 24 j
they will see the current documentation; everything is f
copesthetic and fine; they don't see any need to look in that 26 i
e 78
+
I historical, because everything is there.
2 Q
I understand the concept of having the whole 3
psckage.
4 A
Right.
5 l
Q As long as all the documents and all the historical 6
documents related are available -- and it's been our 7
experience, it's been my personal experience -- that thev 8
are available.
9 A
well, they have to be.
10 Q
From what you tell me here, I have no reason to 11 believe there's anything suspicious about it, u
Do you think there's something suspicious about "it?
onlywhen]lllllaskedthemwhy,youknow, they 13 A
14 were doing this, they just said they didn't want anybody 15 looking at the old documentation.
16 Q
Who told 4ENEEp' this, do you know?
17 A
She may have asked 4 ebb 18 Q
19 A
That's M 20 And I'm being evasive here, but she said that she 21 was told that that was the reason for doing it.
22 Now, my particular opinion is not worth anythina, 23 but -- I know for a fact that some of these hangers have 24 beenn worked and worked and worked and reworked and worked M
until yoa would think they didn't have a spot left on them 8
a 79 o
I that they could rework.
2 Q
Um-huh.
3 A
And it's just more or less that it woyldn't appear 4
that that much effort had gone into that one darticular 5
hanger.
You've got thousands of hangers out there.
This is 6
one thing that has escalated the cost of that plant, is 7
the number of revisions.
8 Q
And rework?
9 A
That's right.
And it would just appear that there 10 wasn't as much rework as there was.
11 Q
Okay, also in your affidavit here, you mention GMA 4 12 ug incident in which you and @ were taking hanger a recent td - g 13 packages to the records vault, and you were talking to 14 come other people --
15 A
Yes.
It' Q
-- and they showed you a package or ISO that 17 contained no weld?
18 A
Well, he had a film package, you know 'or this f
19 weld; and he started laughing and said,."you know, the funny 20 part about this:
thereis no weld 9-1 on this ISO."
21 And M aays, "Well, where does it belong, then?"
22 And he says, "How can we find out?
!!ow do we 23 know?"
24 Q
Okay, we've got the ISO number here.
25 A
Yuh, you sure do.
1 Q
Ycc.
~
2 A
The film package is what you want on that, and 3
then check it with the ISO.
4 Q
Okay.
5 MR. IPPOLITO:
That's all part of the package, 6
though?
7 4
THE WITNESS:
No.
He had that in his hand by 8
itself.
I don't know if he put it with the package; I don't 9
know.
- 10 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
11 Q
For the record, that's ISO 16-2-AB-3, and it 12 refers to Weld No. 9-1, 13 A
And then he said -- they asked me how would we 14 check this out to see that it was a good film; he says, is "well, I can pull it out like this, and they can say, well, 16 that looks like a pretty good weight; looks like it's pretty 17 good plastic."
18 (Laughter)
O4 b Al m t
D le Q.
Okay, and then you give an example in here of hq-Il]
20
-- a classic example -- of people not knowing -- you talk 21 about flange?
22 A
Yes.
23 Q
And you've given that as an example of how work is 24 being duplicated, and people do not know -- okay; that will 25 help our inspectors out.
They can be on the look-out for that.
e -
6IDQ%yWon A9-16 1
Okay, now we get to the point in here where they 2
had the meeting for your whole document package concept, 3
which you were not a party to?
4 A
That's right.
5 Q
But you give us a list of people that were avail-6 able for that.
7 Now, coming out of that meeting, you were told 8
that ad told the people that attended that meeting that if they were interviewed by NRC they were not to divulge 10 or give them information except per procedure.
11 Is it your understanding all these people that 10 attended that meeting were given these same instructions?
13 A
That's what has me concerned now.
Q Okay, who's h supervisor?
A He's accountable to 26 Q
If we just asked him would he say he's passino on instructions in this?
18 A
He is.
19 Q
There's a list here in your affidavit of people 20 who attended that meeting; and are there any on there that 21 you think would shoot straight with me if I asked them if 22 tnat is, in fact, what Mr. Beneszten told them?
23 A
I don't know of a one of them that wouldn't.
24 Q
They would not?
25 A
They would not.
I think every one of them would tel l
04 I
because every one of them is setting in there training their 2
own replacements.
3 Q
Okay.
4 That's what I need to know.
5 (Laughter) 6 I think that's got us covered.
7 A
how, let me explain something that's haopened 8
today that we didn'~t have time to get in the --
8 Q
Okay?
10 l
A
-- something that happened later than this, that 11 we haven't had time to get in the record.
1 They started this new procedure and we've been 13 frozen out of it as far as I can tell.
I' jgggggcamethroughtheoffice.
One of the girls 15 was leaving, several. people are standing in there talkina, 16 and they got to talking -- I don't know what brought it on; I
but he said -- and he looked right at.]lllll-- and he said:
18
" People who are not loyal to the company will be the first 19 ones to hit the gate."
And he said, "Anybody with excess 20 absenteeism, early outs, will be the first ones out the 21 gate."
22 They were talking about the layoffs, that's what 23 it was.
24 But it was the " loyalty to the company" that really 25 got me, you know; and I couldn't believa hearin.g it.
83 1
Q So you think they already suspect her and you?
2 A
Yes, I do.
I believe they suspect certain 3
individuals.
4 Now, another reason why I think they suspect 5
is because she was the butt-end of their jokes yesterday.
6 And she's getting very unhappy.
And she's going to turn 7
her resignation in Monday.
8 0
Is she?
9 A
Yes, she is.
10 They were in there talking about a sexual 11 harassment suit that had been filed against M -
12 Q
By g ?
13 A
No.
By and 14 And one of them was saying, well, last year 15 husband, had poked g (phonetic) in the nose l
16 for sexually harassing her; and that he had gone down and 17 filed charges.
And she wanted to know what was going on, 18 she had hearil her name; and that's what he told her.
19 But anyway a little big later g come in and 20 admitted that that's what they were saying.
So she went in 21 there and she told g the said, M she said, "I
22 don't particularly enjoy being connected to the jokes."
23 He said, "Well, I don't blame you, baby, I wouldn't 24 to be connected to them anyway; but I would like to be want 25 connected to you."
p--
,3-. - -
~.---
.,,.-_--,e.
,--vs.
e s
84 s.
e 1
In other words, they're giving her a hard time.
2 She's very susceptible.
She's basically chicken, that's why 3
she hasn't come to you anyway, you know.
4 Q
Well,]lllllllmaybewe'llhaveanopportunityto 5
talk to her either on-site or off-site some day.
You have 6
alluded to her numerous time in your affidavit and it seems 7
like she has quite a bit of information that might reflect 8
on your concerns.
M have I or Mr. Ippolito here threatened 9
10 lou in any manner, or offered you any rewards in return for 11 this statement?
U A
No, you haven't.
13 Q
Have you given this statement freely and 14 voluntarily?
15 A
Yes, I have.
16 Q
Is there anything further you would care to 17 add?
18 A
Yes, I would like to add something to the record:
18 I need my job! -- as bad as anybody out there.
20 But I will not sell my soul for 30 pieces of 21 silver!
22 I have no axe to grind with Brown & Root or almost 23 anybody out there. I like @ I like 24 The only reason I'm in here is because I am M
concerned with the quality of the plant, and not because I 9
,n
s_
85 I
have a vendetta against anybody.
I don't want to see the 2
plant shut down.
I'd like to see it operate safely.
3 But I do want it to be safe.
4 Q
Yes.
5 A
And that is my only reason roc coming in here.
6 g
g,yy, y,d like you to know as a representative of the NRC, I appreciate your coming in.
We have our routine 8
inspections.
And it is much easier for us to identify 1
8 problems on the site if the personnel who work on these sites 10 will tell us where best to look.
That doesn't mean that if they tell us something that turns out not to be correct 12 because somebody else hnd a review or somebo,dy~else had input 13 that they're not aware of -- still and all, those persons 14 who come to the NRC and give us information about the 15 substance of their job, it makes it much easier for us.
16 A
Right.
17 Q
So I put you in that category, and I appreciate your --
19 A
The reason why I say I've done it is I may not have 20 anything to contribute but I know that if there is an 21 investigation thoroughly performed, and you say to me:
this is a safe plant; I will sleep better at night.
23 If I don't do anything, if I don't do what I feel 24 like I should, f I see something that's not quite right and 25 I don't report it and I leave and later something happens to
- m
_ _ = _ -..
D g
I that plant, I would feel responsible in a way for whatever 2
it was That's why I welcome an NRC investigation. If it's 3
safe, I want to know it.
If it's not, I want something done 4
about it, even though it could practically destroy me 5
financially and every other way.
6 Q
Well, the last thing I'd like to say is -- for the I
record is that the -- we've entered into the terms of 8
confidentiality; as my part of it and those that receive the 9
information you give, will endeavor to preserve your con-10 fidentiality; and you will, too; and I hope nothing occurs i
11 in your job on-site during your day-to-day -- I hope you get u
to keep your job, too.
I see no reason why you shouldn't,
- I unless you know something that I don't.
14 A
Well, I don't.
2 Q
Okay, let's hope it remains this way.
16 A'
Like I told him today whenever he said the early 17 cuts and the absenteeism and the late would be considered first in the layoff; and he said, if you're here and you're i
19 not performing your work, you'll be laid off.
20 Well, I was in the other room, in the file cabinet, 21 and I was a little bit upset over everything that's been going 22 the last couple of days; and when the guy says, what did 1lgglbgsay--Isaid,hesaysthatifyou'renotloyaltothe 24 3
company, hit the gate.
25 He says, no I mean what did he really say?
l i
l l
l l
4 ee
.ey.*.e.
m d-87 6
1
.I said, he says if you are not going to be loyal 2
to the company, then you're going to be the first one out 3
the gate.
4 And he kept on and I says, well, go in there and 5
ask him, I says, don't ask me.
Goinandask%l if you 6
don't believe me.
7 And I said he also said the absenteeisms, the i
8 lates and the people who were off for weeks at a time would 9
be the first ones out the gate.
10 He said, well, I can understand that.
I said, well, 11 I can, too.
I said, he also said, if you're in here -- by n
this time I was beginning to feel like maybe something might be amiss as far as I was concerned, you know, because of the 13 14 way he was doing it.
And it may be; I don't'know.
15 But then I said, well, I tell you one thing, if 16 they're going to get rid of anybody for absenteeism, early 17 outs, they'll have to find an excuse for that because I'm 18 never late, I'm never early out, and I'm never off.
I said, 19 now, they might get me for sitting on my ass --
20 (Laughter) 21 Q
Okay.
22 A
And he said, no they won't get you for that, either.
23 MR. GRIFFIN:
Okay.
24 Tom, have you got anything statement you would like 25 to make?
oo t-s 1
MR. CARPENTER:
Well, as g continues to wo'rk i
2 there and information is continued to be orovided, we'll 3
be in contact with you. Her statement today dons not represent 4
an exhaustive list of concerns; she might have. memories 5
in future of other concerns that she has forgotten about; 6
and not all concerns have necessarily been covered.
7 We want to make that clear and on the record.
8 And we just reiterate our concern about 9
confidentiality.
I don't mean to beat a dead horse at this 10 point, but I really want to express GAPS concern as well 11 over the issue of Region IV personnel being utilized to WAQ 12 investigate.
AI dbb 13 4g There is one thing I've act to say 14 now before I go:
15 You asked me a while ago about my knowledge of 16 falsification of documentation.
I was on the night shift, 17 and I was in the room when ordered M 18 M to sign-off some documentation, some old documenta-19 tion.
I don't know how old, but I know more than a couole of years old.
21 And she was refusing to do it.
And he told her 22 he said, "You will either do it, or you'll spend your three-23 day weekend here until you decide to do it."
24 MR. GRIFFIN:
Okay.
25 And I know that that documentation
.m t 89 I
was falsified.
2 MR. GRIFFIN:
I think we already know about that 3
particular incident; and your statement will be considered 4
corroborative of that.
5 The ccher person was 6
MR. GRIFFIN:
Okay.
7 He signed it, too.
8 MR. GRIFFIN:
Okay.
I 9
But we will be exploring that.
10 So that's tha reason why I say I 11 know that there are times when they do falsify documentation 12 because I was there and I heard it.
13 MR. GRIFFIN:
Okay.
14 Tom, you got anything?
15 MR. IPPOLITO:
Nothing.
Thank you.
16 MR. GRIFFIN:
Okay, that's it.
17 (Whereupon, at 9:20 p.m.,
the interview was 18 terminated.)
19 20 21 22 23 24 25 t
l l
7_.
('
/
U:.37LD STA:LE'Gi n:.: L C t.
4~
I tOCLiAR hi3JLAIDF.Y COMr.1SSIOh 3
INVES72GATIVE 2h2ERVIEr.
5 OI 6
AMVILL (J. A.) DILLINGHAM, JR.
E
- -. :. a ?.:::
- .e C:..: r i n c.:s t So. ervel. Oc n ;-
g Glen kose, 7exas 11 hednesday, Au ust 2.,
1963 12 Tne interview cor.menced, pursuant i
to netace, 3 *.
at 1: 4 0 p. r..
{
4 3#
PAR *12 EE FRESENT:
i On benali cf tne fR0 Off2ce cf 2nvest:cstion:
it t j
kICriARD K. HERR, Investigator
.i gjj E. ERDOKS GRIFFIN, Investigate:
l Office'cf Investigation, Regaer, IV O. S. Nuclear Reculater~v Co:n. ss ict.
IE 611 Ryan Plaza DEive 19 Sus te 1000 8
Arl a ncton, Texas 7t,011 20 I
-On Denalf cf Citizens Asscelaten for Scund Enercy:
l 0 1,.*.l T A i L 2 I S, F r e r : c e.. -
~~
'L..FY ELLIS 14?(
S.
F01x o
Da.it.s, 'lexas 75224 24 e
i
,,3 i
e i
8 j,
k' TAYLOE AESDCit TES g
1625 I ITE!T N V. S'."it 100,4 WA1*NC.Tch OC' 2:00g g
f2 2 253 355:
l i
,...s-u 4
O 2
I FROCEEDI NGS 2
wnereupon, 3
nRVILL (J. R.) LILLIg3ngg, y g, 4
having been rirst culy sworn oy investigator herr, was l
5 examined and testiflec as follows:
6 m
MR. GRIFFIN:
For the record, this is an 2
i interview of Arvill Dillingham, Jr.
!i B
Yeu are ne: greient:y e:. leyed, crs i:
J.F.?
n. C I L :. I N S F. M'. :
hc.
10 MR. GRIFFIh: The location of tnis interview is l
11
- ne courtroom of the Somervell County Co.rtncuse in G2en l
j i
12 '
Rose, Texas.
1 I3 j Present at tnis interview are R.
K. Herr, 14}
l E. Brooxs Griffin, Arvill Dillingha:., Mrs. Juanita Ellis l1 15 l and Mrs. Ellis' nusband, Jerry Ellis.
i It.j Tne sub;ect cf tnis interview concerns the 3I area of intimidation.
Our questions today tnat we a:e j
18 going te direct to you, J.
R.,
will oe as relates to your 19 previous employment at i
Comanene Pear. on tne subject cf l
i inticication.
I Know you previded affidavits to CASE and i
21 i everything line that and I xncv tnat some ci tnese tnings U
t i
nave alreacy been acdressed by the SRO.
I i
Ul MR. DILLIt:GnAM:
Right, and I also want tc 24 bring some otner stuf: up, too, tnat hasn't been crougn j
up.
l TAYLOE ASSOCIATES l
1625 i STREET. N.W. - $UITI 1004 WASHINGTON.D.C. 20006 (2c2 293 3950 s
B
.m 3
I MR. GRIFFIN:
New stuff?
L' MR. DILLI AGri Av.:
Cn, yes, new stuff.
MR. GRIFFIN: Oxay. hell, we will r.ake time for 1.
4
- f. n a r..
5 it.
R..
when did you start work for rown and 6
pogg7 i
MR. DILLINGHAM: It must have been somewnere in b
t.".e nE.g.~.rrinOCd 0.i 3970.
f.
NR. GRIFFJN:
An y ur soc title?
I 10 l XR. DILLINGHAM:
I was a boiler. Taker.
I II I Mh. GR*FFIN:
Khe was your supervisor?
Dale Owens.
l I3 i MR. GRIFFIN:
l n'nen did you lea ve your I4 i
employment witn Brown anc Roct?
15 MR. DILL'INGHAM:
Well, I left once before in 8
yi 9
ce: Ween tims. I startec tc strx witn Brewr. and Root at tne sutton Plant in Ncrte. Carolina anc nen as the job wen-c r.
i 16.
down I went to worn witn Scutnport on tne Mic.tord Job.
I l
19 l just transferrec right over.
t i
MR. GRIFFIS:
Knen did you corre to Comanche I
n Feax?
ns MR. DILLINGHAX:
'75 I think it was.
"I I
i MR. GRIFFIN:
As a D0ilermaker?
l I
24 l MA. DILLINGHAM:
Right.
2 MR. GrLL FFIN:
Anc wnen dic yca leave Erown and.
i e
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Ab 1
hh. DIL LI NGH A.4 :
Mr. Tanley continuously tcl6 me if I woulors ' t do a certain job ne woulo get somecooy 3
tnat woulo.
Lixe, for instance, this swipe test. You co4ne 4
in tne root and you clean tne whole room.
It is supposed 5
to be a certain class, like Class A, and tnen you get tne 6
swipe test to come in there and your QC to come in there ano he picxs out tnese three areas and he will eneck. those 8
- ..ree arear er- :i :..e 3 all enees out good tne wnoie race 2
L is get, :c: ins ance.
10 hell, Tanley called me in nis office and he 11
- saic, J.
h., ce ween me anc you and that wall there I have E
learned a little tricx aoout tnis swipe test.
he said tne i
13 first thing you oc is you find out what three areas tney l
14 are going to enecx and you clean those tnree areas and I5 don't sorry aoout tne rest cf it.
I saio if we are going I
I6 !
to de it that dar.n way, *wny do it at all.
Let's just say l
31i It is gooo.
he saio li you can't nandle it I will get j
16 somecody else snat will.
6 l
It is 11xe he says, lixe tne false 20 documentatten, you Know, on tne liner.
He tolo me I taa o i:
o cetter have tnat liner by tne :1rst of tne year or else i
e e
i
-- i hit ene gate if I an net tnrough Ly January 1st.
- hell, j
3 nere con.e.v.icxey Gerig and he says tnere ain't no way you l
24 are geing to do it.
Ne nave 650 travelers that is screwed "aj up.
I 6
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17 1
lot of times tney told us to do stuff that I Just wo ul e.n ' t 2
even oc.
I wou)o Just agree along witn him anc go aneaa 3
a nu. co it ragn:
oecause taey are unexperienced people anc 8
tney ace. ' t xnce waat tney nre talking about. 9 u.,pe r c e:.t of 5
One time.
6 MR. SERR:
Are you saying that Flowes was I
intim2 dating?
8 4-MF..
! L & I:C::.. N :
T.e pec:le unae r ni.. was : 10 l
4 i
te cc it c e i t t.e r nit une gate er else.
a 30 v.R. HEriR:
Do you xnow wne toic tne pec,le II un=e r n ar-?
1 12 Mh. CILLINGHAM:
1.ee Carnes ano George Taniep I3 came through tne clesel generators.
ii MR. HERR:
And tney telc tne men worr.ing 15 for ---
f
!'.R. LILLINGHAM:
Craig Flowes, wnlen Craig i
I..
' ~
wcrsec for me, or e2se hi-ene gate. See wnat nappene was 18 tne millwrignts =as ourning oif some stuff ana gc.2ged 19 holes in the material.
Well, they wantec it repaired 20 ammeciately be:cre someoody seen it I guess.
.: -i MR. H E.F..; :
New tnose men, tney wor <ed for you?
i l
MR. D h L I dG.5 A.:
Rignt.
- 11 MR. riExR : Did tnose two guys ever tnrea en you 1
24 intar.idate ycu, or are you saying that that was cr
,5 j
intimidating to yc.:?
i.,
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9 m.
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So I went and seen Tanley and I said Tanley, we have got all tnese travelers messed up ano we can't do 3
it.
He saic you get your ass out in the field with toese 4
people ana we will tage care or th2s paperworx.
Well, in 5
order to tage care of toe paperworg I nad to ao tne rework 6
where we nad hold points Jump where tne fatup and cleanup I
weren't bought off and all kind of stuff weren't.dio.
I e
did ver; 11 tie rewtrk. In other wercs, tne S5e er 555 all s
at cnre ceca.:.e gccd anc 1 ust la.agine 1t atk false 10 signatures of QC cecause some QC personnel is no lenger on II tne Joe tnat was do.wn taere wnen t.he fitup was made and it I2 was alreacy welded out.
t 13 P.R. GRIEFIN: nere you there wnen tnis worn was I4 accepted?
15 s
MR. DILLIhGHAM:
Rignt.
j 16 MR. GdIFFIS:
I.
otner words, it nas beer.
1-g bougnt cff :Inally?
T' i
I8 MR. LILoIS3Has:
hell, I xeep gcing oacx anc 19 i
- ney are not doing very cuen work.
Tney are trying te l
20 audit it and are trying to find paperwork tnat tney can't I
'l I
fino.
Iney are trying to fine weld numoers anu Just all e,
kinc of stuff.
U l
MR. Gr.IFFIt:
You mean they nave been doing l
24 this since you left?
I t
I.'
Mh. LILLINGhnM:
Yes.
I I
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I 2u MR. GRIftlh: Dio you get pecple that thic information from 2
are still worxing out tnere?
3 MR. CILLINGHAM:
Craig Flowes. He is my 4
foreman.
5 MR. GRIFFIN:
Flowes tc1d you tais?
6 MR. DILLINGriAM:
I I asxed nim. I saic are you all still worxing on tne liner and he saio no b
, not very muon.
he di c 12.13 Or We $10 OnB!. 77.Ert Fit S c.T 6 f. - r f.
tnat was nct mase on a certain part of tne liner in tne 10 transter canal wnere your gate lancings 11 go in. It us un.5er ccncrete now, but all at once I2 i tney forgot aoout tnem.
Rennie heco, 13 he still works out there.
He worxeo for TUGCO.
ne was the foreman over tnat, 14 tne general foreman.
When I toox over he come tolo me 15
. He saic we have get a big mess-up down tnere and we have got 16 !
X-rays that some haven't t
17 li been made anc it nas alreaoy been poured.
- Well, i
I was going to get into it and tney shut lo i down all tne liner.
So eney movec on te a different 19 So there are X-rays that job.
20 still nave not been made.
You nave got nollow places in the concrete senino t 21 ne liner l
walls.
2: !
MR. GRIFFIN: Let's 90 a cinute.
cacx to intimidation for U
24 I
MR. DILLINGHAM:
Okay.
i 25 MR. GRIFFIS:
Besices Tanley and Carnes, did t
TAYLOE ASSOCIATES 1625 i STREIT. N.W. - SWTI 1004 W 5HINGTON. D.C. 20006 A
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anyuccy else out 21 tnere ever threaten or intimi 2
harass you - -
cate er 3
MR. DILLIhGHAM:
8\\
telepnonc.
Somebody tnreatened me on the
'Iney called me up and saio I wa 5
kr.o w, after I went s ceae, you 6
to stouston.
MR. GRIFFIN:
Did you Know wno it I
was ?
MR. DILLINGHAM:
ho.
Pt i
NR. G P ! ?F 2 :.': 01f arf::cf e-i t..e r e tut c-
/ 0.: 0 in:c acceptir.; ce:ect2ve wor i
10 j n
defective work besioes Carnes a er per:ctmar.g II nc Tanley?
MR.
12 k DILLING.2A!!:
Well
}
MR. GRIFrIS: I am trying to get 13 t
cany people enreatened you and now an ioea cf how 14 yce or intimidated you.
many people narassed i
la MR.
16 DILLINGHAM:
I dicn't reatening off c:
tase too mucn I
II !
,a n y e c c f*.
g wtule nave it In otner words, me anc Tanley l
out just 1:
^
ma t.er' of f a c t,
4e me anc my crether woulc IE As a we lixec eacn otner a lot i
19 I would take anc tell nlm I wa A Act cI times 20 s doing it it and I wouldn't tne way he wants l
21j ce doing'it i
tnat way at all.
1 Just get nie eff peoples' oac4 I woulc 22 I and c:f my bac4 really don't know wnat because ne 23 l he is coing.
i wnatsoever.
He is not experienced 1
24 j
MR. GRIFFIN:
I actually perform or accept On how many occasions did you 25 j defective wor 4 l
l would you save i
l e
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51 I
(Tne reporter noticed a drawing on tne baci>.
s sace of Exnioit 5 and cro u a. n t it te Mr. Dilline. narr. 's i
3 attention.)
4 1.E. DILLI:4GhAN:
(.delerring to Ixnitit S I- ) Cn,
i 3
tais is tne expanslor. Joint I was talxir.g aoout with tne 6
f1Alet welds.
It is a real small stainless steel 1/otn expanolen ]cint anc it has got two small, little fillet E
se.:: : r. t r e.
L u. GF.I.:i: N:
Csa;. I t.. ink e na.e go:
t..1.
10 '
in tc.e testi nrny.
.: c w.m 11 DILLI.sGHAM:
We put several, several, I p,
t t r i c.,: t r. or tnree nunc.re tons against i.
- y.
I3 Oxay, stainless steel liners. Tnis is lixe tne i
14 reac.or ouil:1ng and tne fuel building. ne are supposed to 15 nave a gap in nere on our fit-ups.
This is not in there.
16 i
M}.. GRIFFIN:
Tnis is scr.etning ne ?
3 ' l; j
?.?. CII.LINGH A:::
l'es.
16 g
MR. GR15F I.N :
0,c a y.
i U
t
. Jt. DILLINGHxM:
oo l We are supposed to have a gap in nere no less tnan 3/16ths ano no more tnan 3/8 ns.
4
~'
NR. t3 ERR:
knere is t.? For tze re:Ord,
)
deser.ce wnat it is.
23 l
.v.F. DILLINGHAM:
Tnis is a stainless steel l
24 liner. Inis is an emoec floor plate to angle on the octton.
23 [
an: side plate to angle.
I don't xnow exactly wnere, but l
i i
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,sr g-
-w w
+4 de
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somewneres in tnere. I can tell you a person tnat procaoly Goe5 K n o m*.
3 i
MR. McAR:
Unit 1 or Unit 2?
I 4
MR. DILLINGHAM: Well, on the fuel cellding y 5
nave just gone one, and for all I xnow it might be both 6
1 liners, but I can tell you the person's narne tnat could i
prooably tell y u because he is tne one tnat did it.
I MR. n.R.. :
Who is t..a-'
~I 6
- c. '
n. C I;;I s 3.%M :
Ecrt I.ceillne.
30 Okay, wnen I raade general foreman ne comes II cve'r anu I asxed he.c is everytning going and he starte:
12
- talxing, he goes man, tney nave us welding. Insteac cf I3 putting a gap in tnere, tney nac at Jacmed togetner and 14 Just togerner and Just la16 a ne11-arc-wire over it and 15 welded it oct, you xnow, in otner words, not maxe a full i
pin weld.
I said on: in tne nell nad yoc de taat, an: he
,- }
sal: Bert Evere t.
ne was :ne c.eneral foreman I re.olaced.
,g.
So I wen: and seen Bert, and I saic, Eert, I 19 saic I xnow you all cidn't de it, but tna: welder saic you j
'O all laid nell-are wire in there and welded it over because 2If your gap wasn't cig enougn. He goes well, J.
R.,
we can. I 22 l see it was on :ne t p angle an:. tna is celo Ine water 6 3 level, anc he goes, no, it was en tne o:: tom, and I g:
godcatn. He goes, I swear won't nappen again. I pro:Ise e
I e->j you 2-won't nappen again. I said well, I can guarantee 1:
f 6
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won't happen again.
Sc 1 started to go to Tanley and then 1 3
reali:ed in torth Carolina if I c!id I woulc probaoly nave d
gotten ru:. ef f, anc tnen I Just wan:.ed to see how iar i
E tnese peccle was going.
In tier n Carolina I thougnt 6
somebody would come along behind ana straignten everyt.hing I
with little white gloves on ano stuff, but that isn't out 8
ne way 1-w e r.: e :.
We was :. e :..+ 1 00:n; i. 50 1 us-co ted :: see new far tne. w:et pc an: stuff.
10 Sc wna you nee: te de is taxc a little 07 U
test and rur along enere anc fine tne thicxness of ycur welc.
13 he also han a weAcer in tnere.
he was a real I4 bac welder.
He would cold lap it.
He woulon't let it 15 penetrate.
Then wnen you weld it over, you could grind it i
16
.. an: ru:. your test en it anc every nin: is :: cat, out 8
i-
- ::gnt nc:.:e as tnicx as a ple:e of paper.
As a ma: er N
cf fact, I near: tna: hnalen Daniels went alen: cenin us M;
and toon a straign pin an: stuex noles in it. he is still t
20 1 nere. I con,: xnew wnetner ne did er net, ou
..i s na.me is analen Daniels.
.vf..
rte A R :
Why don't ycu draw an arr=w wa.ere I
cne proble is on enere.
4 (Dillingham Exnibi; 7 fcilow: )
_e.
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I got one drawec.out here.
2 here is the problem rlgnt h e r e.- You are 3
supposed tc have a gap lixe tnis one rign; here.
You are supposed te coce in here and you are supposes to weld i.
5 Yea tack it and tnen you come bacx and you weld it nere 6
and here and eventually you weld it until you weld it all I
tne way out an: make one solid weld out of it and tnis is 6
,us: as streng as tne rest of i..
.5.
L: L!s:
hn. Ge: '. y e
- g. e t a 11:11e arr:.
witn an "A" or some ning line tnat.
1*
AR. GRIF FI:;:
Tnis is welding done on tne i
1I liner, right?
i t
o MR. DILLINGHAM:
Rigns, tne stainless steel l
14 Liner.
la.
This is Item A.
Tnat is wnere it is supposec.
16
- nave been, wr.len a lo: cf it is, but at certain place:
e i
I it d:d 11xe tnat.
You nave got you a lit.le cut wele 1
Ih nere an you lay a little nell-are wire along tnere _ and 19 i
i you welc over it.
Of course, wnen ycu welo over it you
'l Ol i
get a little lump and tnen you grind i-back off 11ush and v
j taen you nave get as tnics as ycur fingerna.A, for i
j
...s t a n c e, and you can snap it.
3l; e
That welo tnere you =culc ta<e bulldozer and 5
s e4 j
noon tae two toge ner and you couldn't pull tnem in tw:.
Tnis you cculc taxe anc snap at w1:n ycur finger, or-Just t
t TAYLOE ASSOCIATES 1625 i STatt' N.W. = SulT! 1034 w;.:;;;,4GivM D.C.
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55 1
tne tempereture of summer and winter will crack tnat.
e.
M5. ELL 15:
Wh/ ocn't you mar.e tnat "E".
3 MR. CILLINGhnM:
"B",
oxay. how hert Loe flin::
4
. i c 6.- tell ycu wnere it is, how you might want t.c. cnees witn 1
Wnalen Danie's because after I left I cnecxed witn a guy 6
and he said Knalen come along benind us. He always carried I
a straign pin in his cigarette anc stuck noies in his f:
8 fl.:sr and s.n e d.:.
He salc ne tocs a little straigh.
f..- Efter -c ren ali c.r te=ts on it anc, tne LFE anc :ne I
10 vacuu:: cox, and ne come alcng cenind us anc ne stuex holes 11 e
In tne welc witn :nat little pin.
Tnat is calles a colc l~' I lap rign nere.
(Cillingnam Exnic1t ho. o follows:)
14 15
.t 16 i
t 16 19 20 21 -
e, 24 l
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I 67 nam out anc tney agreed tnat ne coulon't nancie 1:.
So 2
eney was going to pull all nis certi ication.
3 Ine superintendent tolo tnem, or the general 4
superintencent, if tnat mar. cian't nave his certification 5
i oy tne enc of tne weex tnat their butts was gone.
6 MR. HERR:
What is tne name of tne I
superintencent?
i e
- e. CI' L::sGF. Av.:
Yca would have te ence': with c.
G:; =: er Fre
.. l c r. :,13, c.:: 2 nins tne mar's r.a:E. Whi Ml Jam.es Callicut.
Now tnis is wnat tney telc me. Ycu can I
Ul cn e e.s with Fred Sicncis over at I,1 the senoel or tne guy called Gc.dcr ce:ause eney agreed tna i
3*. :
- ne guy coulcn't weld ana i
tney we.s gcing to pull nas certs.
34I j
l in otner woras, ne was certifred to do l
II construction worn and tnat is wnat we cid.
In order for i
4
}6 l
- ner :: c.c pipe werx taey n.ac tc taxe a pipe test, walen i
a little str:.cter test, 11 4
anc 1: nac :
ce X-rayed. Sc ne 16 coulcr't even nardAy et oar wcr r:
wnlen was constraction.
I9 MR. HERR:
So tne superintencent
-l
~0 1 i
ME. DILLINGHAM:
s The general superintendent, i
25 i
accorcing to Fred Kicncis or Gcicen, told tne: if that man 22 l dicn't nave nas certi:ication fcr pipe cy tne end of cne I
~3 i
weex inat tney ass was gone.
l I
e 4l MA. EERR:
And tney were the training pecple?
a i
~
l ME. LILLINGriAM:
Tney were instructors at tne i.
5 TAYLOE ASSOCIATES 1625 i STRiff. N.W - $UITE 1034 WASHINGTON. D.C 2000e j
(202 293 395f.
1 y
._y,
So I
l scnoch, yes.
1 2
1A. HERR:
Wnct nappened?
~J E.
DILLI.sGHAM:
They gave hat: nis i
Ce r :111 Ca t a or..
l 5
I This as.cs: one of my welders corr.plained 6
after tne job was dic to me.
His name is Mike Ratliff.
Tnis is a transfer tuoe in tne canal.
It goes frou tne F
ra.a. Icel b,.:ild:ng o the reactor buildi..
i In t.a: ::se y:u nave ge: sc.T.e we;cs ir. :nere 30 l
- na is full pin weles.
Yee are supposed tc perge it, anc Ul
- ne-f ul. p: n welc, 1:
supposed te dip in a little rigr.: in 12 nere. Tnat is waa: i: is supposed te lcck lixe.
"A c.
2".
13 -
su: as tney started welding it sucxed in er.
]4 tne= real cad.
Sc :ney en up maning a partiat pin wele.
l*'
out of it.
16 i i
MR. GRIFFIN:
How car. we fir.d tnese?
i
..i
.Vd. C I LLI.*iG d A *;
- They onl)' nave got two Cf i
M
- n e c.. Yo nave got a pene: ration tnronen tne reac:Or coins 19 I
i inte tne fue2 cuilcing.
It is Just a round transfer tube e
}
20 I is all it is and ena: is wnere your f uel leaves tne
~.-'.
reacts: a r.c lays down anc goes tnrougr tna tuce.
You ge j
to ycur a al..less stes liner.
U MS. ELLIS:
Is taa: Unit 1?
I e4 i
MR. DILLI NGE A.w.:
Uni: 1 and Unit 2.
6 t
I l
i MR. HERA:
Is tnat C?
I l
a TAYl.OE ASSOCIATES t
' 1625 l $TRf!T N W. = $UITI 1004 WASHINGTON. D.C.
20006 (202 293 395C
DILLIrwGHAM EXHIBIT r
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