ML20154P160
| ML20154P160 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 09/23/1983 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20081D710 | List: |
| References | |
| FOIA-84-61, REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 8809300128 | |
| Download: ML20154P160 (46) | |
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.OR\G M Uh11ED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3.
s 7
IN THE MATTER OF:
DOCKET NO:
ComtISSION MEETING CLOSF.D - EXEMPTIONS 2 AND 6 .
(THIS TRANSCRIPT WAS PREPARID FROM A TAPE RECORDING.) ,
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1.OCATION: WASHINGTON, D. C. PAGES: 1 - 87 .
DATE: SEPTeGER 23, 1983
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t ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC. l Off.cul.W.en, 444. North Ca e8093001r20 0e0916 FOIA Washington,gitcl .C. MStreet PDR - -
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1 l UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY CostMISSION 3
4 ' DISCUSSION OF MANAGEMENT / ORGANIZATION 5 AND INTERNAL PERSONNEL MATTERS 6
7 EXEMPTIONS 2 AND 6 a . CLOSED MEETING 9 Room 1130
- 1717 H Street, N.W.
to Washington, D.C.
11 Friday, September 23, 1983 12 The Commission met, pursuant to notice, in closed 33 session at 3:19 p.m.
14 COMMISSIONERS PRESENT:
15 NUNZIO PALLADINO, Chairman of the Commission VICTOR GILINSKY, Commissioner 16 THOMAS ROBERTS, Commissioner JAMES ASSELSTINE, Commissioner 17 FREDERICK BERNTHAL, Commissioner 18 ALSO PRESENT: .
gg JIM CUMMINGS 1
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10 Now, I can report on the discussion with cummings 11 now or after we do the ratings. I propose'we do the 12 ratings, I tell you what occurred at that meeting, and then 13 f, we'll go to Cursings last.
CO!OtISSIONER GILINSKY: Let's see, we were going --
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CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: To do the ratings.
15 16 CO!OtISSIONER GILINSKY: I would sort of like to 17 hear your conversation.
18 CHAIR. MAN PALLADINor Before, so you can thir.k abou't it?
19 COMMI!SIONER GILINSKY: Yes, if you don't mind.
i CHAIRVAN PALLADINO: No, I don't mind at all.
20 21 Well, I met with Curmings somewhere after 10:30 22 on the 22nd, and I told him at the meeting, at the Commissier <
23 meeting on 9-13, and confirmed at a meeting on 9-21, the Cornission voted that I should tell you the following: The [
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25 majority of the Cc: mission no longer has confidence in your -
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! ability to carry out the duties of your present office and 2 voted to re-assign you to another SES position. The 3 Commission has some possibilities in mind for your re-assigne 4 One possibility is re-assignment to the position of deputy 5 director of the Division of Safeguards. However, we have not 6 discussed this possibility with either Mr. Dircks or Mr.
7 Burnette.
3 Before the Commission decides on che SES position 9 to which you are to'be're-assighed, it' asked me to get your to thoughts and ideas about possible positions to which you migh 11 be re-assighed, and then I waited.
l 12 So he said, "Well, I'm stunned." These are the 1
l 13 j notes I took, I can fill in between. He would like to know 14 the basis for this action, and he wanted to know what the 15 vote was. 1 said the Commission did not agree on releasing --
16 , or on revealing how individuals voted or what the vote was.
I 17 l And I had talked individually to two Cornissioners -- you were 13 gone. You and Jim were gone. So, I took that -- well, that's 19 quidar.ce, very important to me.
20 I told him that I could not give him reasons for 21 the action. I said there were several things discussed durint 22 the meetinos and to what extent these are reasons that are in 23 people's minds, I can't determine.
24 I cointed out three items that I remember hearing 25 discussion on. One was concern about the fact that his desir.
5 1
to reflect on what action further he was going to take when 2 we gave him the admonishment was viewed as a veiled threat.
3 I said the fact that he had appeared to be concealing the 4 fact that he met with Region III personnel and changed the 5 report was something brought out. There was feeling that he 6 :,was overreacting to the action taken, and that he was there-7 fore becomit.g ineffective.
a He asked for examples. I said, "Well, I prefer not 9 to give examples, perhap. you want to get examples from to talking to people."
11 He says he wants to be asrigned to a position 12 covered by the Law Enforcement Retiremer.t Act; he brought that 13 fact up almost immediately. Then he went on to say, after 14 six years here and twenty years of government service he would 15 like a reasonable opportunity to reflect on his options; wants 16 time to find out when he can -- where he can find 4 job 17 covered by the Law Enforcement Retirement Act. Me thinks it 18 would be more appropriate to have something like 60 to 90 to days.
20 I had mentioned to him that ordinarily it would be 21* 15 days before it would be effective. However, the Commissier n would like to detail him to either an interim position or i
23 the one we 'inally come uo with as'soon as possible.
24 Well, he thinks it would be more appropriate for hi:
s 25 to have 60 to 90 days before being detailed or re-assigned.
l 1 - - - _ . --
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- 6 He was not 1
So, he would like to meet with the Commission.
he would j 2, sure if he would be ready to meet with them tomorrow, let me know either late yesterday or sometime today. And he 3
it.
4 said this comes as such a shock, he has to think about ,
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5 The first thing he has to go through is tell his wife that he l s lost his job. He said that's not going to be easy to do.
7 I said, "Well, you didn't lose your job, you are 8 being reassigned." Well, then he started to get red in the face. He turned his head. Then he got up and came out this 9
to way because I don't think he felt he was composed enough to 11 go out the regular way.
COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:
Has he talked with anyone 12 13 else since talking with Joe?
COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: He called me at home and I 14 I
15 tried not to talk to him, and he was very persistent.
16 don't think he should have done that.
1 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL: He was in to see me.
17 l Nell, he came in to see me 18 "OMMISSIONER ROBERTS:
to but I wasn't there.
COMMISSIONER BERNTRAL: He talked to me about 20 20 21 minutes, half hour, whatever we talked, about 15 minutes, an I
22 I did basically what I told you, Joe, I was going to do.
23 did not feel it was incumbent on me to discuss how the 24 Commission voted. I didn't tell him how I voted.
l CHAIRMAN PALLAOISO: I told him how I voted. I 3
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1 i told him -- I said, well, the Commission didn't agree on 2 releasing the vote. "I feel I'm free to tell you how I 3 voted."
4 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL: But I told him --
5 CHAIR. MAN PALLADINO: But I didn't dwell on it.
6 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL: I told "im that I thought 7 as an outsider I could be candid with him about what my 8 . perceptions were', and I just said it seemed to me that he had 9 handled some matters in the fairly recent past very badly ,
10 and that he had frankly offended some members of the 11 Commission in his handling of things, especially the relation 12 ship between him and the Commission, and that therefore the 13 j statement that you read meant exactly what it said, that 14 he didn't have the confidence.
15 I tried tc dwell on and emphasize that a job like 16 his really wasn't worth trying to do if you don't have that 17 special chemistry with the Commission, and in my judgment is the chemistry had been destroyed. And I guess I used the 19 analogy of a marriage going bad, sometimes you don't know 20 exactly why, but that's what had happened.
21 He was -- I'd never met the guy before.
COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Oh , is that right?
22 CO%MISSIONER BERNTHAL: No, I had never met him.
23 24 And he kind of charged back and --
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15 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I want to understand. What
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[ 8 1 ! do you mean, he "charged back?"
2 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL: Well, very vigorously, he 3 defended himself. And finally, without going into great 4 detail, that's essentially what I said and what he said was 5 essentially that he thought it was unfair that suddenly with-e out any reasons that that kind of summary action would be 7 talen.
8 And I said, "Well, you know, you are talking about 9 list of particulars and I'm saying that a list of particulars to is not, in my judgment at least, what's happened here."
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Incidentally, I told him 12 something similar. I said, "Jim, whatever the reasons are, 13 you have lost the confidence of the Commission."
14 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL: So, anyhow, I urged him 15 when he comes in to the meeting -- 4.nd I told him I realize 16 I was a little presumptuous to advise him -- but I said, you 17 ought to just monitor the meeting and see how in his judgman '
is it's going. And I said, it seems to me you should be Hi able to reach a conclusion as the meeting goes on as to what a you feel you could perform that job with the relationship that you now have with the Commission. And if you can't, 21 22 then it seems clear what you would want to do.
So, that's kind of where it was left. I don't 23 24 know whether he followed that advice or not.
i 23 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I think you gave him a ver', !
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ll I COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: Yes.
g COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:
- Occurate charseterization 2
3 It certainly characterizes my view.
CRAIR%AN PALLADINO: Well, I think the thrust --
4 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL: And incidentally, I did 3
6 use the term -- as I mentioned to you, Joe, this was sort of 7
the second go-around that I had explained. I said, "Look, yo g just blew it. You b'ew it in terms of your personal relation g ship with the Ccamission and members of the Commission."
go So, that's the message he's gotten trem me.
CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Well, I would hope the major 11 12 thrust would be on what acco.codations he would like to g3 suggest to us, COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: Yes, me too.
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I CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: You want to discuss it any 15 16 more?
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CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Do you want to wait to hear f 3
4 COKMISSIONER GILINSKY: I hope we are not dragging 5 this out too long, I have some important --
6 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO. I'm sorry, I can't hear you.
7 CORMISSIONER GILINSKY: I hope we won't spend too 8 long at this.
9 CORMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: With Cum-ings?
10 COKMISSIONER GILINSKY: Yes because --
11 CORMISSIONER BERN'JHAL: I'll bet it's hard to cut 12 it short.
C I'll bet it is.
13 l CO!!MISSIONER ROBERT.:
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' I don't know.
14 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
15 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL: Because there is a "hawk" 16 down at the end of the table.
17 (Laughter) q 13 CORMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: That depends upon whethe I
19 any of us are going to go into greater detail and explain
- o your underlying reasons.
21 COMMIS3IONER ROBERTS: To me it'a a matter of 22 confidence and the relationship with the individual.
t COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: That's right.
23 24 p CO!'.MISSIONER ROBERTS: And we don't have to have
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l 25 { any reasons.
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53 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: That's right.
. 1 2 COMMISSIONER RCBERTS: Does anybody want to tell me 3 that's totally illogical?
4 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: No, I agree with you.
5 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: No, I don't agree.
6 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: Joe doesn't.
7 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: I feel strongly the way you 8 handle people is, first you try to counsel, give them some l g opportunity to improve, and put them on notice. Set your it, targets for what you consider improvement and then if you 11 don't see the progress, then take some action.
12 And not giving reasons, I don't think is good.
I l 13 ; Eventually, I think, 'we are going to all end up giving reasor i
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14 But that is not necessary at this time. It depends on --
15 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: (Inaudible) 16 i CRAIRMAN PALLADINO: What's that?
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- g i COMMISSIONER ROBERTS
- I think my reason vill stanc is CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: All right, are you ready to 19 call him in?
20 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL: Where do you want him to 21 sit, anywhere special, or do you care?
22 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: We usually let him sit there.
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23 (Laughter) 24 l COMMISSIONER BERSTHAL: I didn't want to say 25 i anything, Jim.
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54 1 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Okay, so why don't we call him 2 in?
3 MR. CUMMINGS: I'm going to try a new chair.
i 4 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: I just moved.
5 (Laughter) 6 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: He just moved, made that 7 available to you.
8 (Laughter) 9 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: .T i?. , as a result of my discuss:
10 with you on 9-22 -- that's yesterday -- you requested to' meet -
11 with the Commission and the Commission has agreed to meet 12 with you to hear what you have to say, i
13 MR. CUMMINGS: Well, as the Chairmar. said, yesterda 14 morning h,e advised me that after lengthy discussions at 15 several recent closed management meetings, the Commission i 16 voted to reassign, transfer me, from the position of 17 director Office of Inspector and Auditor to another SES 18 position.
19 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Jith I referred to two specif:
20 meetings, on 9-13 and 9-22. But go ahead.
21 MR. CUMMINGS: The reason that was given for the 22 transfer, reassignment, was that the Commission had lost i
23 confidence in my ability to carry out the duties of the j i
l 24 position.
- 25 i When I asked Chairman Palladino for the specifics l
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. 1 as to why the Commission had lost confidence in me, he replie 2
that he was not able to articulate the specifics attributable ,
3 to each of the Commissioners, and suggested that I might tal)
' 4 directly with you in this regard.
5 Finally, the Chairman advised me that the Commissic 6 did not agree on revealing how individual Commissioners '
7 voted or what the vote was.
4 Those are all of the f acts that have been told to r ,
9 in this particular matter. So, following Chairman Palladino '
10 suggestion, I am here this afternoon to ask why --
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: There were two other facts.
12 One, I told you that while it was 15 days, the Commission 13 would like to detail you either to your final assignment or 14 l to an interim assignment, assuming the decision was made, i
15 All right?
16 MR. CUMMINGS: I am here this afternoon to ask yet l
17 why you have taken such a precipitous and drastic action is against me. I am, frankly, stunned by the abruptness of it 19 and the manner in which it was handled.
m Several months ago, the Commission issued me a 21 Memorandum of Admonishment in connection with the Appelegati 22 FOIA case. Although I personally took excepcion to that i
23 action, I nonetheless immediately took the corrective actio 24 which I believed the Commission wanted to be taken.
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' Ir.rediately following that episode, the Chairean I
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. 55 i told me that he was aware of scea sentiment on the part of 2
some Commissioners that my strong position relative to the 3 Commission's letter of admonishment might affect my future i 4 working relationship with the Commission.
5 After further discussion with the Chairman on the 6 subject, we agreed that a short memo on the subject from me k 7 to the Commission would be appropriate, and I sent this memo.
8 And I said, "Pursuant to our July 13 meeting, I want to e specifically assure you and the other commissioners that not- '
to withstanding our differences of opinion with regard to the 11 Applegate FOIA matter. I will continue to provide the Commiss
- 12 , with my very best effort in directing the activities of the 13 office of Inspector and Auditor."
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14 In addition, in that letter I withdrew my request i
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to ask for the tapes and the transcripts of those meetings 16 j
although I believe it had already been approved by the 17 Commission at the first meeting.
I 13 The gist that I had from the overall meeting that 2 19 had with the Chairman was that he was trying to put business 4 20 back on track and to look forward and not to look backward, W)$1/W 21 and I agreed. And I essentially did my Appeal Board in ordo l
l 22 to avoid further instances or possibilities of rancor
- l 23 develocing over that.
1 24 ! For the rating period July of '81 through June of 25
,I received an "excellent" perf ormance rating. I was also en<
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57 1 of six NRC oxecutives to be recommended for Presidential ran) 2 And just two months ago, I received a "fully satisfactory" 3 performance rating.
4 I am at a loss to understand what performance on m}
5 part was so egregious in the last 60 days as to warrant my 6 virtual dismissal. When employee performance is unsatisfactc 7 or below expectation, the normal management practice is to 8 first communicate the p*;oblem and then attempt to mutually l 9 resolve it.
4 to This process simply has not been taXen in this 11 case, and I earnestly ask that the Commission give me the 12 benefit of that due process. I do not know what investigatii i
I 13 l audit, memo, action, non-action on my part or en the part ;
I 14 of my office has caused you to believe that I cannot fulfill 15 the duties and responsibilities of my position. And in my 16 opinion offering me no opportunity to be aware of your conce 17 coupled with no opportunity on my part to rectify them or 18 resolve them, is to me a very unfair management practice.
19 So, I really basically ask the Commission to tell i
- 20 me what it is that caused you to take this what I consider 21 very severe and abrupt management action.
i 22 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Let me say, Jim, for mysel !
i 23 I think the most productive way for us to spend our time 24 togethtr is to think about where we go frem here. And, you ,
h 25 ;l know, the raised possibilities, I think we certainly want ::
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' I 58 1 get your thoughts on this. :
2 But as far as to stay in that position, that ir, 3 something that requires a certain feeling of confidence -- le
' me put it that way -- on the part of the Cemmission. And if ,
4 5 it's not there, it's not there, whatever the risson. ,
It doesn't seem to me fruitful to pursue taat. I. ,
6 7 wouldn't be useful, I think because I don't think there is ar a inclination to harm you personally in some way that is 9 consistent with not continuing with that position.
10 So, there may be things we can discuss, pos sibilit:
1 11 you are interested in, or whatever. And I would like us to 12 come to some reasonable arrangement that meets the intereste i
13 dtheCommissionandvour interest.
14 E
But so far as I =~ cencerned, that can't include 15 staying in that position.
CHAIR?!AN PALLADINO: Incidentially during the 16 l il 17 ". discussion I did indicate that the Commission vould like to I
j and is get your ideas and thoughts on possible reassignment, j 19 during our discussion you did say that in view of your six
- N years here and your twenty years of government service, you i 1
21 thought that it would be reasonable to provide you time enos
- 22 to consider your options and to look for a position where yc ( i
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23 would be covered by the Law Enforcement Retirereitt Act.
1 24 I You felt this took longer than any time like 15 d ;
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! 25 ; You thought it took nere like 60 or 90 days, and if I 4 e t
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' - 59 1 understood it correctly, you felt that you should have at 2 least that much *.ime before you are either drtcalled or 3 reassigned.
4 MR. CUMMINGS: I'd appreciate that.
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! 5 CHAIR. MAN PALLADINO: Now, are you saying you are f
6 not requesting that now?
7 MR. CUMMINGS: Well, I would hope that is not an 8 issue. I think there is provision for 120 days under party --
9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Wait a minute, that has to 10 do with employment. I don't think there is any inclinati6n 11 to put you out in the street. I mean --
12 MR. CUMMINGS: I understand.
I 13 ! COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: -- no one wants to do that, i
14 Jim. As a matter of fact, se had one possibility raised to ,
t 15 us -- I think the Chairman mentioned it -- if that makes
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16 sense, we can pursue it. I think there is an inclination to 17 possibly look into other possibilities, whatever.
I 18 MR. CUMMINGS:' I understand.
f I I don't want to see any 19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
20 harn come to you.
21 MR. CUMMINGS: Well, Vic, you are saying that. But 22 the actions that you are taking are far from --
l 13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: What I'm saying is 24 consistent with --
25 MR. CU'tMI';G S : -- consistent with what you just sa
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CO%MISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, as I said earlier, g
2 consistent with making a change in the directorship of the 3 office. Now, just the fact that we deal with each other on 4
this kind of ten spaces where you read statements to us and so on. It's not a comfortable relationship. However it 5
6 came about, this is not something we can go into in a court 7
of law, administrative proceeding. ;
a It's a managerial decision which one makes for one o reason or another. It's not a comfortable thing to do, and <
10 I would like this to come out in such a way that -- as much 11 your salary as possible.
12 I think I sense that general inclination, and I I
13 jthought you might have sone ideas in mind that either could I
24 jinclude--
\ I certainly, I will certainly, you 13 l MR. CUMMINGS:
16 lknow, cursue that.
i That is not the reason, however, that I a .
l 17 Ihere. The reason I am here is to ask vou for your reasons. -
And you, for one, have said that you are net going -- in 2 13 19 sense you are not going to give me your reason.
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Beyond what the Chairman z
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21 told you about losing confidence in your ability to stay in ;
that position and perforn in a way that I'm confortable with i
22 j '4 R . CU".MINGS: I guess I'd ask the --
23 CC"".!SSIONER ASSELSTINE: That's my feeline 24 23 well.
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- 61 1 i MR. CU!!MINGS: Is that your only reason, may I 2 ask that question?
3 CO?tMISSIONER GILINSKY: That comes from a variety o:
4 circumstances which I'm not going to discuss at this point.
5 And others may have somewhat different precise formulations.
6 But, you know, in every sort of organization one 7 has to make decisions, or occasions cone up where you have to a make decisions of this sort. And where there is a mismatch 9 for one reason or another, it may reflect badly on you, it to may reflect badly on us. The fact of the matter is, we have 1
11 come to a path where, for myself, I think a change has to be 12 i made in the directorshio of that office.
I 13 l Now, at the same time, I would like you to --
14 consistent with that, you to come out of this as well as you 15 can. That may mean possibly another position at the NRC or l 16 l it may mean simply taking on a temporary position while you i
17
! look for something else, depending on what your interests are f 18 depending on what the oossibilities are.
MR. CU!!MINGS: I understand that and I appreciate
{ 19 M that. But I think that's quite separate from the other issut 21 that I am trying to get at. And I guess what I'm hear _ing is 22 that you and Jim will not addraan that issue bovend -_-
4 23 CO!!MISSIONER ASSELSTIME: Beyond the statereat tha-24 we have made --
25 MR. CU!"!!N1S Beyend saying that y u have lost l0 b
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l 1 mconfidence in me._
2 COTtISSIONER ASSELSTINE: That is the reason for l
3 making our decision, at leaSt, that a change needs to be made 4 CO*i!!ISSIONER GILINSKY: I would think --
5 MR. CU!i' TINGS: Could I ask the other Commissioners 6 for their views on that?
7 CO!1MISSIONER GILINSKY: It's not up to me to decide 8 that. But may I just make one comment, J im. I don't think 9 in these circumstances it's going to be a coa.crtable role l
i 10 to stay on. I guess I'm surprised that you would want to 11 in the circumstance that the Commission han expressed itself 12 in the way that it has.
I 13 It seems to me it's a kind of self-answo u ,g f
14 question. You occupied a particularly sensitive position, i
1 1 15 l one that involves sort of a special relationship with the ,
1 If it's not there, it's not there. It may not j 16 f l Commission. !
i 17 It may not be there for I blbethereforpersonalattributes. l 18 things that have happenad. It may not be there for idio-19 syncracies of the Commission but whatever, if it's not there ;
20 it's not there.
21 And I think the most productive way for us to 22 pursue things at this point is really to look to the future
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23 and see what is the best arrangement that can be made that 24 i will meet our resoective interests consistent with making a 25 l change. .
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63 1 MR. CUMMINGS: Jin, do'you feel that way?
2 CRAIRMAN PALLADINO: I'll give you my response. I 3 don't support e action proposed and I think I told you that
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t 4 and therefore I don't have reasons to give you for it.
6 MR. CUtiMINGS : Fred, da you support the action, or '
6 CO'tMISSIONER BERNTHAL: Well, we talked about this 7 before, Jim, Lnd I've not been involved in most of this 8 preceeding and, as the other Commissioners know and as I 9 stated earlier, my inclination is that I would tend to follov to the judgment of the Chairman who has broader management 11 responsibilities, even though in this particular case, as 12 Commissioner Gilinsky has reminded me, you are specifically '
I 13 J you do report to the full Commission.
k 14 But I agree with, as I told you and I evaluated
!$ the situation as I saw it earlier for you, I agree with what 16 -
l Vic is saying.
17 MR. CUMMIMGS: What Vic is saying. If the Commissi' l'
18 tells me that they lack. confidence in me --
l 19 COMMISSIONER BERNTRAL: The presmise here --
20 51R. CU!!MINGS: -- and they want me to take another i 21 job, that's one thing. But I think that ought to be said, 22 and I shouldn't hear that in a vote that comes in directly i
23 to me that says, "Gee, we just had two meetings and we have 24 decided that we lack confidence in you." I,,ih4-> *ki- +ha-6.
25 ,_ appropriate steps to take are to call sm ect.e 4n ar' ki"e =
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1 i 64 1 frank discussion with them about that.
2 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL: The premise for your --
3 MR. CUMMINGS: And I think before that happens you 4 ought to have some basis upon which to make the decision _that 5 you lack confidence. I have not heard that basis yet.
S COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL: Let me just finish what 7 I'm saying.
8 MR. CUMMINGS: I'm not a -- you know, I'm a career 9 civil servant -- excuse me.
10 COMMISSIONER BERNTHALs I was just going to say', th 11 premise for something like this is that your job demands a soecial relationship with the Commission. As I said earlier, 12 13 it requires a chemistry that in my judgment isn't there I i 14 anymore. And that's --
15 MR. CUM' TINGS: I think that's probably true, and I 16 don't disagree with that.
CO!!MISSIONER ROBERTS: If we agree with that, the:
17 18 I don't think we have any alternative but to make the change 19 MR. CUM.MINGS: I guess the other things is that 20 this business about this soecial relationship with the 21 Commission, I think, is getting a little bit blown out of 22 kelter. The responsib(lit 9 of my of fice, wher."e-c succeeds e is to conduct audits and investigations, and to call the fac t
23 _
24 the way thev see the . And they shouldn't have to werry sh.
23 hether_they are in favor or disfavor !*h *ha -*$~'4*" cf_
s t
l
I
- 65 1 ltheCommission. And if you get into that bind, you are ir.
2 for a very, very tough sledding, and I think that's wrong.
3 And I think if you don't have someone who has a 4 medicum of independence in that job, you are in for very, very 6 dangerous grounds. And I personally feel, frankly, that I am 8 entitled to some more direct response for wantino a change of 7 2nv responsibilities than some amoruhous pillow that says 8 _the chemistry isn't there. _
9 If you want to say the chemistry isn't there and
~
to we would like you to go out and look for another job, fine, I 11 will do that. I don't have any problem with that. But I 12 . think that formalizing this is inappropriate, a very l
13 inappropriate way to handle. people. Tom, excuse me.
14 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Well, we may be reaching somt 15 sort of accomodation. I mean, I'm willing to say the 16 l chemistry isn't there.
17 MR. CUMMINGS> All right.
18 COKMISSIONER ROBERTS: You are a career civil 19 servant. I in no way am saying you are not upholding your 20 job satisfactorily 1 I'm not prepared to say that. But back 21 to what you said, if the chemistry isn't there, then for 22 everyone's peace of mind and execution of their proper duties 4
U ; I think we should make a change.
I 24 MR. CU A"!INGS Okay.
l 25 g cox"ISSIO:iER ROBERTS: Do you understand what b
l k
u
1 .
I l l
66 1
1 I'm saying?
i 2 MR. CUMMINGS: I guess what I'm saying is that -- 1 3 you are telling me before, at least as I understand what the l ' 4 Chairman has told me, you are basically telling me you have 5 lostconfidenceinmeandyouaregoingtomovemetoanotherl 8 job. _And that equates to me 6 8 not eerforming my job 7 satisfactorily.
8 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I'm not saying that..
9 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: In that particular
{
( 10 poc1 tion.
l 11 MR. CUMMINGS: Well, Jim, I mean, how in the hel1_ _
12 do you skin a cat like that? Mait a minute now, you can't
(
l I
13 i say that. You have told me i the discussion that I have l 14 just had -- I'll try to find the exact words.
)
15 l The Commission has lost confidence in my ability 16 .to carry out my duties.
I 17 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: That's right.
15 MR. CUM'!INGS
- Now --
19 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: As head of that office.
20 MM. CU!!MINGS: Does that -- and Tom is just saying 21 in no way does he say --
22 CO'!MISSIONER ROBERTS: That's my own opinion.
23 MR. CUM'!INGS: -- tha* T 's = = ^^* eerforming my ieb 24 satisfactorily. Now, are you saying that I was eerformine-r 25 hjobsatisfactorily,orIwasn'tperformingnyjebsatisfact:
I e
- 67 g COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: I am saying that I do not 1
2 believe you should continue in that position.
3 MR. CUMMINGS: I understand that.
! 4 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: That a transfer is 8 necessary.
6 MR. CUMMINGS: _I understand that, Jim. I am asking1 7 you the question, do you believe that I was performing my_
1 s job in a satisfactory mannar? _
9 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: Each of us may have thab to own differing view on that.._
HR. CUMMINGS: I'm asking you. Will you answer l
1 11 the ouestion, or will yno not?
) 12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: You know, this is not an i 13 j ( ,
14 administrative proceeding. This isn't something that can be 4
i 15 decided, you know, by interrogating people.
. L 16 I honestly think the most productive way -- l
\
j 17 MR. CUMMINGS: Vic, I am going -- I assure you tha'( '
i 1s I will do everything I can, as quickly as I can within !
i c
is reason, to try to find another position. I may wind up with ! t 20 the agency, and I appreciate that. But I will try to take [
21 another position.
i l 22 But I think that I am -- I think frank 11 it is'a ~~~
I l
l t doo-out for Jim Asselstine or for you to sit here -- ,
j 23 1
- L
) 24 CC",MISSIONER GILINSKY: I don't think so.
! MR. CUMMINGS: -- and refuse to answer the questic ,
25
,4 ls 2
nI i
I 68 i
I 1
of whether or not you think that I perform my job satisf acto:
2 CO"MISSIONER GILINSKY: Ultimately, a Commission hr 3 to make a decision and speak with one voice on a particular
- 4 decision. Taking personnel decisions, if you start taking 5 a Cor, mission apart, you know, as if there were -- deal with 1
4 those judgments as if there was some sort of administrative 7 proceeding or whatever, it leads to a situation which I thin) 8 is not a good one.
9 MR. CUit* TINGS: Would you answer the question, Vic?
10 Do you think I perform my job satisfactorily?
11 COMMISSIONER BERNTRAL: That's not the question he 12 Cou.MISS.ONER t GILINSKY: , I]p not coina to answer it 13 because I think this kind of approacr. between us is not a I
14 l healthy one, either. I think -- I don't feel unfriendly 15 towards you. I know you regard this at a very unfriendly 16 act, I'm sure, and I can understand that you would.
17 But I really don't feel unfrien.31y. I don't want l 18 you to come to harm other than I do want to make a change in 19 that position. And if you have suggestions, if there are 20 other possibilities that are suggested elsewhere, I certain]
21 would like to consider them and -- well, find a reasonable -
22 in whatever way I can, have you find a reasonable place eitt i
23 here or nu*. side the agency.
24 U CH;IR't\N ?ALLADINO: Are you --
CO.v.!5SIONER GIL:NSKY: But I would not have you
?.5 i
69 1 continue --
2 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: That's an accurate 8 characterization.
I 4 MR. CUMMINGS: I understand that.
6 (Simultaneous conversation) 6 MR. CUM!!INGS: I'm just savina, this is enough 7 of beating around the bush and saying,.you either/dia perfer unsatisfactory or you didn't, 3 just think that's me much 8 _
9 rhetoric. There is some sort of protection that says, "Gee, 10 if we say that, then he'll say, 'well, then why am I being 11 removed from my job'7" I've been through tbis.
12 COM:tISSIONER BERNTHAL: Jim, let me draw an analog l
13 l and I hope it's not too inappropriate. If you would care l
i 14 to listen. This may be a terrible analogy but let me try.
15 (Laughter)
COMMISSIONER BERNTRAL: I think Billy Martin has 16 i 17 ', departed the New York Yankees about three times, and there 18 probably is nobody that would say that he had not performed
- 19 his duties admirably. But the problem was that the chemist i
20 came and went about three times between him and the managem 1
l 21 the highest-level management of that particular ball club, i
l 22 And I'm not sure this is completely unlike that
! i l 23 kind of situation.
f 24 MR. CUMMINGS: That may be, but that's the diffet l
i i
25 between beeing a career civil servant and --
i i :
b
I 70 l g (Simultaneous conversation)
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: You know, it is a mistake --
2 MR. CU'tMINGS: Sure, it has the appearance of a 3
f 4
disciplinary action.
CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Let me interject with a gudstior 5
4 You said you. don't want him in the job. He says he wants to 7 go look for another job. Or are you saying -- I'm asking any
- g any one of you, but Vic, I think you raised it first in my
, mind.
to Are you saying that you want him out right now and gg then go let him look for a job?
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Yes, in effect, yes. I 12
! i 13 idon't want to leave any other impression than that. I do want l
34 to make a change now.
COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: You want a changa made.
15 I i 16 (Yes, that's right.
g; ,
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Right. But <
l gg MR. CUM't!NGS : ,
Well, I don't feel -- I have e great
- I deal ~of difficulty with that. I think I should be given a j 3, 20 reasonable opportunity to -- this is, everybody says it's not 21 disciplinary, that it's not job performance related, but we 22 want you to go right now because of this bad chemistry.
4 1
COS*.MISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, I don't think it's wis i 23
'to drive all these conclusions to their legical result and l 24 l arrive at conclusions en particular oerf:rmance and s: on, 25 n
f I
i II
71
. 1 As I said, I think the best way for us to deal with each 2 other is to look ahead and to see what can be done to meet ou 3 respective interests.
l.
I 4 CHAIR
- TAN PALLADINO: Any other questions?
8 MR. CUW!INGS: Okay, what is it that the Commission 6 would like to do?
7 COTtISSIONER ROBERTS: We have to agree to a a conclusion.
No, we have to do that in CHAIM%N PALLADINO:
9 4
10 concert here. ,
11 COMMISSIONER SERNTHAL: We haven't discussed the !
l 12 queGtion --
13 CHAIM1AN PALLADINr): No, we havent' discussed a
- 14 proposel.
15 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Let me ask you this, whethe J If we 16 you -- let's not address agreement or disagreement.
) 17 take the f act that the Com:nission has decided there is going l 18 to be a change, all right, what is the most comfortable thin i 4
19 for you?
20 MR. CUdStINGS: Well, I would like to go and look f
. i 21 l a job.
l 22 CO.'t'!ISSIONER ROBERTS : That's not unreasonable. ;
f 4
I
(
23 MR. CUsetINGS: I would prefer to look in my i
24 particular situation for a job which rovers me under the i
25 i
retirement system that I'm in, and those jobs are more i !
i I l
72 1 difficult to find than others.
2 And I must say, too, that after the last letter of 3 admonition I asked the Chairman if he wanted me to stay on at 4 the Commission. It was not something that we did not discuss' t
6 CRAIRMAN PALLADINO: And I said, "Yes," I wanted l 6 him to stay.
7 MR. CUMMINGS: And he asked me to stay. I did not 8 you know, this was something, after a letter of admonishment 8 you go around and slugging it back and forth. You know, this to comes as a shock, and the Chairman indicated to me that he 11 wanted me to stay. So, I haven't done anything.
12 So, this, as I say, comes to me as a shock, 13 particularly by the abruptness of it. If someone calls me 14 j down at 10:30 and sayn, "We just had a meeting and voted, 1 \
1 15 the majority of the Commission, that you are to leave." So, 1
16 : I need -- I will accomodete your wishes, but that's going to
(
) 17 ! take time. I'm starting right now from scratch, and I would l ,
2 l
1 1 18 like an opportunity to Ng> out and look for a job in a reason.
1 18 manner. And that may take -- I don't know, l
i '
i M And during that period of time, I would hope --
6 ,
21 whatever that period of time is -- that I'm not going to ) 6 22 sent to the corner to count jellybeans. .
I 23 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: You are saying during tN i
24 peried of time you want to stay as Director of CIA? ,
25 MR. c'a'. MIN Gs : I would like to stay as cin t0 c
f l .
i i i-
1 73 1 the office.
2 COMMISSIONER BERNTRAL: Why don't we consider those 3 issues?
4 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Okay. Thank you, Jim.
5 (Whereupon, Mr. Cummings left the room.)
6 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Well, I was rather silent, 7 then. Dut I think there are a few things I'd like to say.
8 I'm not going to re-argue whether he should go or not, I 9 think that's already been decided.
10 Br.t as I sense the situation, we are -- at least 11 l the majority of the Commission is not saying that his work I'd was unsatisfactory -- to various degrees of satisfaction.
13 t
I think at least in part some of it is his style 14 at:d the interaction of the Commissioners with that style, i
15 I I tr. ink if he stayed on, we would still get good l Primarily, the people who 16 i investigations and good audits.
i II l work in there still are the ones that do it.
16 I would say, barticularly in view of the abruptnes 19 and I think his diligent service, aside from the way we may 20 think about how he reacts, I would say we ought to give him 21 90 days, I think, would be a reasonable period in which to 22 find the kind of job he wants. I would say we ought to do 4 i
23 Now, this is not the way I would handle it. I i t 24
[thinkItoldyouIwouldcallapersonin,tellhit the h concerns and perhaps put him on r.otice and say, "Here is wh t
L e
- 73
- 1 the office.
2 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL: Why don't we consider those 3 issues?
I 4 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Okay. Thank you, Jim.
8 (Whereupon, Mr. Cummings lef t the room.)
4 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Well, I was rather silent, 7 then. But I think there are a few things I'd like to aay.
\
8 I'm not going to re-argue whether he should go or not, I l 8 think that's already been decided.
10 But as I sense the situation, we are -- at least 11 the majority of the Commission is not saying that his work 12 was unsatisfactory -- to various degrees of satisfaction.
g 13 ! I think at least in part some of it is his style 14 , and the interaction of the Commissioners with that style.
I 15 I I think if he stayed on, we would still get good 16 investigations and good audits. Primarily, the people who i
work in there still are the ones that do it.
17 18 I would say, particularly in view of the abruptnes 18 and I think his diligent service, aside from the way we may M think about how he reacts, I would say we ought to give him 21 90 days, I think, would be a reasonable period in which to 22 find the kind of job he wants. I would say we ought to do 9 e
23 Now, this is not the way I would handle it. I 24 , think I told you I would call a person in, tell him the 25 concerns and perhaps put him on notice and say, "Here is wh E
b e
) .
H
, 74
. 3 I'm going to look for," and in a period of time I'd expect to see compliance. If he doesn't improve, then he knows where he ,
2 3 is going. I think that would be an appropriate thing to do l 4
here, but that's not what we did.
6 So, I would say, I would propose to give him the i
s 90 days. I don't think you are going to lose anything by it, t COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, I tell you what you r 7
a may lose. There is a problem, I mean, someone in that ;
e position who has the relationship that he has to the 10 Commission at this point.
11 CHAIR. MAN PALLADINO: Are you worried about the jub f 12 getting done? If you are worried about the job gettilig done, t
13 lIdon'tthinkyouneedtoworry.
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I just don't know --
14 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: If you think about --
15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I've got a lot of questions l 10 l
l 17 about his judgment in a lot of these circumstances. I don't f
! is know whether he will find a job in that -- first of all, I i
to wouldn't want him in that position, j l
CRAIRMAN PALLADINO: Even the 90 days.
M
! c)M!!ISSIONER GILINSKY: No. But he may not find a i 21 job in 90 days, so he'll extend c:other 60 days. I think the!
! 22 s
23 most sensible thing is for him to be somewhere else where he ,
! And I '
l 24 l doesn't have any deadlines and he can look for a job.
t 25 wouldn't impose any deadlines on when he needs to find a job l
J b r r i h !
b !
I I f
75
- COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
Yes, I'd agree with you.
1 2 I'd give him whatever time it takes.
I don't know what you are 3 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
' 4 giving him, except you say, "Well, we are going to transfer 8 h im . " Incidentally, you have to tell me where you want we )
e to consider his being transferred. You tied my hands on that 7 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: A suggestion, send him 1
8 to the safeguards job.
I have to negotiate. It's not 8 CHAIRMAN *ALLADINO:
10 all that simple.
I
' 11 CO'1MISSIONER GILINSKY: Oh, Joe --
12 CHAI9 MAN PALLADINO:
For God's saka now, don't let l 13 re get angry, but I've got the job of implementing your l
14 l decisions. Now, you ought to give me some flexibility in 15 I implementing your decisions. I want to implement them, I an '
i I think if I'm going as far as 16 going to implement them.
17 ld keeping him in for 80 days, I want to know how you feel on t 18 But don't set I've got to do it right this minute t .
18 and then find out I reslly can't tell him where to go.
M COkt.'!ISSIONER GILINSKY: You don't have to do it --
21 CHAIR' TAN PALLADINO: I'm saying, I have to have t 22 to talk to Bill Dirchs. I have to see what irpact this is going to have in that direction. aybe there is another t
23 24 l alternative to consider. I'm saying, I want a few dr.ys to S
25 h, do that.
li h
h L
I 76 i
1
- , t I'n. also separately proposing that I think it's L
2 a good idea to proceed this way and give him the 90 days. If 1
you want to say, "Well, I'm uncertain about whether he'is goir t 4 to ask for an ext 4nsion," ask him to give a lettar of .
i i 8 resignation effective December 31.
4 I'm just saying, there are lots of ways of covering :
4 7 your tracks if that's what you are worried about.
4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: It seems to me it's reasonal ,
l e that he should have a way, a place from which to look for l
10 another job if he does not want to stay in this agency. I i
i 11 t
wouldn't put a time limit on it, but I think there are a lot !
i i 12 of problems about leaving him in that position.
l !
13 ! And if you are talking about a few days to talk l i
l 14 l to Bill -- i i '
15 i CRAIRMAN PALLADINO: Well, yes, those are i
i i
16 two separate ~~
i 17 CO WISSIONER GILINSKY: But talking about 90 days 18 as far as I'm concerned is just not a good idea and I would ;
i is not favor that at all. l 20 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL: I wish I had a better view 21 of the extent of the problems of leaving him there for sone i 72 period of time, and I don't. So, I've got to rely on others' t
M judgments. t 24 l I think 90 days, Joe, is long. I think the questic 23 ! of some period for him to be able to -- !
i L
f l*
k i
77 3 (Simultaneous conversation) l To find a job like that !
2 COM!!ISSIGNER GILINSKY:
in, say, 30 days is, I suspect, not an easy thing. It may a
l
- 4 take him six menths.
COMMISSIONER BERNTRAL: Well, okay, but let me got 8
4 to the point. The point is that he clearly is in a, position 7 of strength for job hunting if he hunts from his current position, and I sympatise with that. I think 90 days is too 8
9 long just because these tnings have a timeliness and I would to much rather, frankly, set some considerably shorter length of time and extend it is you feel you must. But 90 days is a 11 12 long time for a "lame duck" to be 'n an office like that.
13 But I don't know, I'm not aware of all of the 14 sensitivities that Vic speaks about.
15 Co%!.tISSIONER ROBERTS: Let's get everything out, 16 and I'm not impu*,ing necessarily any foregone conclusion abo
- 17
' what Cummings might do in the future.
But let's faoe the reality of it. The guy is Is is taking this very seriously and very hard. We have a basic to disagreement, and that's why we are not going to continue hi 21 But the potential there for him to be mischievous 22 (Laughter) t 23 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: I agree with you, Tom.
COM?tISSIONER ROBERTS: I'm not saying I believe 24 l He is reacting 25 j he's doing damned good or he's dishonest.
i b
73 1
already like a wounded animal.
2 COMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: Just his aerformance in a here today is every reason not to --
i CHAIMAN PALLADINO: Come on, Jim, for God's sake.
4 s If you were told you were going to be fired, you wouldn't 6 come in with a prepared statement? You would be damned fooli:
7 if you didn't. Don't tell me that his performance today is :
a going to influence your decision.
9 His perfomance today is what I would expect from 10 almost any person.
11 (Simultaneous cor,versation) 12 CHAIMAN PALLADINO: Past performance, yes. '
! i i i
t I
.J i 16 r !
l l.
17
- l
'I 18 r
I 19 l
1 20 i I
21 1
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24
) I F
i :3 !
l t
h i
i
t I 79 l
1 2
. 3
. 4 5
6 7
6 ,
CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: I worked with him just the way 9
I think I ought to have worked with Jim. Now, you voted
- to gg differently so I followed the *dvice.
CO.TtISSIONER GILINSKY: But the difference is, as 12 g3 3 opposed to g M 'de have had one meeting after Neother g4 1 on the ,9pbject of James Cummings, some of which he attended, 33 ]someofwhichhespoketous. We had highly emotional meetin 33 IdA letter of edmonishment and so on.
g; h So, for a person like that to come'in here and say I
18 this is out of the blue. I think, shovs a tremendous gg , insensitivity on his part.
I' CHAIR'RN PALLADINO: I don't agree. He asked me if go I wanted him to leave and I said, "No, I'd like you to stay.'
21 I
22 Chat's ny honest opinion.
I 23 CO'N!99IONER DOBERTSt If that cuestion had been q
4 Jhanded around to all the Cercissioners, you might have gotte l-25 a positive response.
80
- CHAIR!AN PALLADINO:
No, he wanted to know how I 1 ,
2 felt.
COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: (Inaudible)
. 3 4
CRAIRMAN PALLADINO: He wanted to know how I felt.
5 I didn't know how -- well, I made a proposal and I'm hearing g you out. You are saying --
7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I think there are just too a
many' problems with him staying in that position in these l
e circumstances. 1 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:
Letmeaskaquestion,maybef to it we need McDermott. Can you detail him to Bill Dircks and keel 12 him at his present pay?
j CHAIPJ!AiT YALLADINO: Can we what?
13 I r l
' COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Can you detail him to Bill 14 is I
Dircks?
CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Oh, sure.
16 i I
COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I'm sorry?
17
]
CHAIR' TAN PALLADINO: But he wouldn't be in his is le present place.
CCM?!ISSIONER ROBERTS: I understand that.
to CHAIR'UL'! PALLADINO: Yes. But I'd like to have a 21 22 few days just to go ahead and prepare the road and then get i
23 it done.
C0"."ISSIONER ASSELSTINE: Sure.
24 25 l CRAIR"AN ?ALLADINO: And I think I can do that in i
i
't
l '
81 2
, 1 the forthcoming week. I've got to determine where he is i
2 going to go. I've got to come back to you with the options i 3 on who is going to take his place. I think you have to put l i 4 the package together and come back and say, now here is how 6 we are going to proceed and it's going to be day "X", and i
e that's it. j l
7 But before we did, then I wanted to see how you I a reacted to some period of tirae. But I gather you reacted j e , negatively.
i i to C0".MISSIONER GILINSKY: See, I think when he i
) 11 should have come in -- there are all sorts of possibilities, ,
i f l
12 you are going to have him doing some special study on i
13 investigations. These things get solved in organizations j 14 every day all over the country. There are problems of this I !
l 15 sort, mis matches of one kind or another, and ways are found l I
] 16 lto j deal with them. ;
' I
! 17 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: That's right, and I know the !
I is right way. I have dealo with then for many years. I know [
' t l to the ones that work and the one that cause the kind of i l 30 circumstance that we have here. t i
21 The ones that work well is where you do it with as i
- I 22 little rancor as possible. You alert the guy, say you are i i
i 1
23 going to do it. Look, go get yourself lined up or, if we l
1 I 24 !
think he is salvagable say, well, we are willing to werk wi:1 [
i t 25 hyou for a certain period of ti.e and go ahead and see if we 1
1 i
q h ,
L
______________-_i
82 i
1 can't salvage him. The ones that don't work, that don't work '
2 with the greatest effectiveness at least in the best interest i
. 3 of the organization doing it, I think are the ones that are [
4 handled the way we are handling it. (
t s I'm not trying to degrade -- I'm saying, if you l e don't want to give him a period of time to look for a job, 7 fine. ;
e COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: He does have a t'ime. f No, I mean in his present I a CKAIR4AN PALLADINO:
[
t to position.
11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Right. In fact, he should 1 la be devoting -- if he wants to leave, he ought to be devoting 13 full time to looking for a job, and that's also inconsistent 14 with him running things there. ,
i 15 It seems to me this is the wisest course, to find i 16 ,another spot.
17 CRAIRMAN PALLADINO: As long as the votes are there j t
to to do !t, there is no sense for me trying to discuss it furt! [ i to I think we are doing it all wrong.
CO'tMISSIONER BERNTHAL:
30 So,let'ssee,thequestio]i 21 is, I guess, whether he stays at all longer in his current - (
I 22 CHAIR!!AN PALLADINO: Well, whether or not you are j I
t 23 willing to give him an extended period of tire in his presen I f
24 [ position. I don't know, I proposed 90, "ou proposed sorethi j L
- $ ,less, or not. That's if you say, "No, we don't want to kee; ,
I f 1
i l
- s3 g
him there," then I'll go to work and I work out the detailing 2
and who I would propose to have fulfill the lob. r l
3 t 4 l
8 t l
4 e 1 I l
i i
- e l i l
! 10
.! 11 12 t
I
! 13 l I
14 1
15 l
i I think that's reasonable - -unless you want to f to J
- g7 ,do something different like 90 days, or 60 days, or whatever t
' l I 18
]youeropose. .
I T I I
g, COTtISSIONER GILI!ISKY: I think one of the Icssons of this as far as a personnel natter, it is very inportant l to f I
gg the Commission speak with one voice. You know, I understand l
l 22 that you are -- strongly and you are in an awkward position.
\
- I think there are good ways e 23 CRAIRvN! PALLADINo:
24 l Going personnel nattets and there are bad ways of doing (
25 cersonnel natters. j i
U 4
l j 4 :
84 g CO'tMISSIONEM GILINSKY: But however it comes out, I!
i 2 think that when a person feels that, you know, there is a some leverage or you can work on one Commissioner or another :
e 4 to reverse things --
6 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: I wasn't working to reverse e it. I never asked them to reverse it. I said -- he made (
t a proposal, the one proposal he made was the one that I e quoted to you, and I proposed that ve accept it.
You are e saying you don't want to accept it, that's fine.
10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: He had no reaction when'yot 11 socke with him to this other position?
12 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: No, no reaction. That he i I
13 i wanted to go to a position where his Enforcement Retirenant !
l ,
j 14 Act ** !
g3 COMMISSIONER BERNTRAL: I don't think he accepted l 16 l the fact that his job was over until today.
i 17 CHAIR!iAN PALLADINO: What's that? l 1
COMMISSIONER SERNTHAL: I don't think he had ;
to accepted the fact that he was not likely to win this case I
l so until this afternoon, and he may still not, i i
COMMISSIONER GtLINSKY: I'm not sure that he accep l 21
- l 22 it still, I say frankly.
t I
g CHAIR'!AN PALLADINO: No, I think he accepts that h !
23 !
1 I 24 is going to go out of his position. He would like to stay j
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until he can find another job. It gives him a positien cf l i 25 ,
o 1
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85 1
strength for finding it. But it that's not what you want to d 2
th&t's what we are not going to do.
s So, I gather at least three of you feel that you 4
don't want him on here for any period beyond what it takee 5 to work out the details.
6 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: Yes..
7 CRAI5 MAN PALLADINO: I will so toll him. All right.
6 COMMISSIONER SERNTRAL: So, are you clear then, Joe, 9 on what --
CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Well, what I'm going to do is 10 11 tell him that -- well, first I'd like now to go talk t6 Direkt 12 about the assignment.
13 i
! COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:
Well, I thought that's what
( ).
4 14 l you meant. ,
COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: Yes.
15 It i l '
17 18 19 20 21 22 l
23 24 s
25 f
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7 8
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10 11 12 13 l
(
14 15 16 l
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23 l Othereupon, the r.eeting of the Cor.9ission was 24 j a p 25 q adjourned.)
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l .
CERTIFICATE OF OFFICIAL REPORTER This is to certify that the attached proceedings before I the UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION in the matter of: ,
NAME OF FROCEEDING: DISCUSSION OP MANAGEMENT / ORGANIZATION AND INTERNAL PERSONNEL. MATTERS CLOSED MEETING - EXEMPTIONS 2 and 6 !
DOCKET No.: .
I PI. ACE: Washington, D.C.
l s eote:nber . 2 3, 19 9 3
( gg7,,
were held as herein appears, and that this is the origitial :
transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclea? ;
Regulatory Cort:nission. '
(sigt) M. E. Hanssa f d // dew l j (TYPED) [
i I
Official Reporter .
- l Reporter's Affiliation .
(
Ace-Tederal ;
[
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1
) i
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