ML20148G046
| ML20148G046 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Trojan File:Portland General Electric icon.png |
| Issue date: | 11/01/1978 |
| From: | Mccollom K, Mark Miller, Paxton H Atomic Safety and Licensing Board Panel |
| To: | |
| References | |
| NUDOCS 7811100111 | |
| Download: ML20148G046 (230) | |
Text
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b NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION E
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IN THE MATTER OF: ,
-PORTLAND GENERAL--ELECTFIC CC.'4P.Vf?7 e t" r.1, ~ '~
(Trojnn iluclear ?lar.3)
Dacket Mt. 30-2-4 l
l (Ccr.tro1 ;uild!...g ?r:013f.!r.; )
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Salem, Oregon -
Place -
1 November 1973 1833 - 20S3-Date - Pages .
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- Teleohone:
(202)347 3700 ACE -FEDERAL REPORTERS,INC.
k OfficialReporters 444 North Capitol Street Weshington O.C. 20001 NATIONWIDE COVERAGE . OAILY
. . . . . . _ _ _ _ . _ . . . - . _ . _ -.1 Z----~
WRalocm/wb' I F& Bloom 1833 CR 9925 1
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1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA N] l
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~ ( 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY CCI'eIISSION 3 _ ____ __ _ -_
i t 4[ In the matt:r of: :
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q : 3 Eh PORTLA!!D GEME*ML ELECTR20 CO:Cli, : C ,chst !!c. 5'> ^,44 !
1 h et al. : (Cen tre:. 2 ilding i
- g. 4 j : Pr:cniing:) { !
(Trojan Nuclear Plant) :
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Hearing Room A, ,
3 l! State Capitcl Dui' ding, l f.I Salem. Or.cgca. ;
10 81 j Wadnecday, 30'rech t 1, l'"70. li 11 0 - l The hearing in the abova-entitled matter was l m ..
,q [ reconvened, pursuant to adjournmant, at ^,:30 a.m. I a#)] 13 i BEFORE:
14 i s
MARSIIALL E . MILLER,' Esq. , Chairman , j 15 Atomic Safety and Licensing Board, j ,
13 DR. KENNETH A. McCOLLCM, Member. l j
i 17} DR. liUGH C. PAXTCN, Member.
f '
i
) ;g APPEAPANCES:
s I
19 li On behalf of Licensess: ' l 4
4
- 1'l1 s i 20 ROLAND F. BANKS, Esq., Southor, Spn".liing, Kinnsy, ;
Willi.amson - Schwabe, S tandarf. Plar:, ;
u i Portland, Oregon 97204. >
t e t
+
22 M.VJRICE AXEL.-QD , Eaq . , Loucastain , Me cr.::: .,
Reis and Axelrad., 1015 ccnnecticu W a .ne , ;' ,' .
.+.l
.. Washinc. ten, D.C. 20025.
I
.o.,., 4 i
RONALD JCENSCN, Esc.., Port 1:nJ. Canara2 Elsctric l Ccmpany, 121 S.W. Salmon Street,:?crcland a.
! Oregon. ,
4 6
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is tg 1834' i
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On' bahalf of Bonneville Power Administration:
(
WILLIAI4 KINSEY, Esq. ,1002 d.E.11olladay, p 5 Portland, Oregon.
aa .
!i on behalf of the State of Oragon Ec ,s.r'::anc of Encrsy, G[ '
Oregon Public Utility Cc m iscioncr:
lg 6[ JOHN II.- SCCOLOPSKY, Ssq. , Depart = cat of Justics, ;
' e, State Office Building, Saler., Oregon.
- 7
.I O1 On behalf of the Nuclear Regulator CoIxtissien:
- _ .-, _ l 9 JOSEP11 GRAY, Esq. , Of fice of E::acutive Legal Director, United States Muclear P.ngulatory ic : Commission, Washington, D.C.
i, 11 : i
! On behalf of Columbia Environmentcl Counci.'. !
12 l Intervenor: !
13 GREGORY KAFOURY, Esq., Kafoury & Hagen, j 202 Oregon Pioneer Building, 320 S.U. Stark -
1.g i Street, Portland, Orogon.
15 - On behalf of Coalition for Safe Pcwer, Intervencr, 'l and g ,se,:
16 j j EUGENE ROSOLIE: 392G N.E. 12th Street, Portland Oregon.
i t
a
. .l i On behalf of Consolidated Intervencr::, and pro 3:
4 jgj NINA DELL, 2018 N.W. Everstt, Por : land Oregon.
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t' 1835 11/01/78 1, s
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, .C .O N .T.. E .N .T .S S~.s.
1 2 Witnesses Diitect Cross ;b/Deard i e 1 3I Donald J.Brochl ) 1836 2047
- c I S.R.Christensen ) "
,h Bart D.*Ti&. era )
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Lic-17 73.3.3 71gure 34 7-2, ::0th cide >' 3 31,~ 20 Di
. . 1 Censolidated Incenonors':
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,3 1. Pross rel. case 200' O'/d 20211 l 1.1 !, 2 Oregon DOD to Hillians, PGU, 4/13/78 ?.117 2013 I i
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.I A 2i CITAIR!!A!! MILLF.R: Good morning.
i 3, 8 We 11 resume the cross-e:: amination of tha panel,
^
L ,
4 'j please. l l I! l U } Whereupon, -l 5
i o DONALD J. UROE!IL, i
, . i .
I 7' S. R. CIIRISTE!!SEN, {
N i( 3 BART D., WITHERS, -
0g and i
- 0 JO!!N L. FREMI?iG -
i
- 11; resumed the stand as witnesses en behalf of the Licenses, '
!. In and, having been previously duly sworn, ware e::amined and j N'
I 1.3 ' ' testified further as follows: '
[L , i tu p C1 FAIR!iAli MILLCRs The State of Oregon has con-l, i-
- 3j cluded its cross-examination, has it?
I jg [ MR. SOCOLOF3IG'. s Yes.
1
- -[ CIIAIRMAN tiILLER
- Thank you. I
' 1 I
, a, ;3 ,4<
Mr. Kafoury.
4 19f MR. KAFOURY: Good morning, Mr. Chairman, gentle ;g
- e. ,
4
+- 20 - men. ,
- , , i m ,
CROSS-EXAMI!IATICU (Continued) ,'
.t yr l DY MR. .KAFOURY:
3
.;3 .' O Mr. Brochl what's all this about crah.s in the -
i
, y '7 containment vessel? ;
j i 3[ N ' g ), A (Witness Eroshl) In the coursa of testing the ',
1 i y !
l! I il, *
.s.,,,s.-p. .
om-
.w,,.
_na. nn, m
,, g a s .-e..
g 1837 l i
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~VN mpb2 1 containment vessc1 it is taken to 15 parcent beyond its
) l ) .
s ), dasign pressure. The frocen containment is c 60 psi design. l i; !
I '
^
O ji It's pressura-tasted at 69. And at this prassure the steel l i : reinforcament in the cer.Minnsat tha T>re- '= :cri canf.cm r3 l 0
- g. C. taking tha load.
j 1 o Gjj Ac you heard in acrlier tactimony, in crdar for
- I
+
7 i the oteel to take the load concrete cracks. Now it's pre- l l i C stressed. The tendonc take it but there is some redistribu-
' l
.. n... 1 Eh tien, and some cracks appear. And as a prccess of testing, il la 10 jj we map those cracks so that in cubsaqusnt tssts which will Il M T, be done periodically during the life of the plant, we can
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it i observe any differences that thara night be.
.c -
,. m
{ n ! Q Is the concrote procracked, or is cracking simply N if so:r.a thing that takes place during testing and is ant' rely l'
in anticipated?
- h. MR. BANKS: Mr. Chairman, I'm going to objact to s -
- 7 i any further questions along this line about the centainrnnt ili a,
7a l building.
19 .: It's'beyond the scope of the direct, and it's Qe il ft \
- LT, ; also not relevant to tha issues before the Board.
O
- rl 9 CHAIRMM MILLI
- R: Yes.
If
- i J :*
b je Sustained.
= , MR. KATOURY: ?hy I be heard cn tha questi:n, 6
c .-e lj Mr. Chairman?
g
) e O CHAI? FAN 'ELLER: Yes.
/ W Ujg I
6 u
. _ _ _~_. . _ _ _ _ _ . - . . . ,
- f 1
1838 l 1
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A mpb3 1i, MR. KAFOURY: I'll reserve the matter for later.
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2{ Thank you. f l
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j 2] 3 CIIAIRMAN MILLER: Very well. }
J
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4 ') DY MR. "GSOUR'l:
Cd 0 - Do you kno.i much about ear'.hqud:as, Mr. 3rcch1?
a- 1 c
G '! . A (Witness Droehl) Not a great deal.
i4 Y
1 f a. O Uhich of the members on the pans 1 would be the
, 7h -
3
'. b" rnost knowledgeable on the subject?
,+,qge,.
ii r 4 .,.
y .e. e-$o&ger o A' on Earthquakes? -
- ic j Q Cn earthquakes end earthquake criteria for the .
l '
is 3 plant.
l' 116 A I think we're all quite knowledgeable on the :
} e carthquake criteria for the plant, at least the engineering
. 'v i
- 4 portion of the Staff. !
gg , O (
I'm sure it's in the record someplace; but what n
f gg is the FSAR definition of an SSE at Trojan?
,4
-, A The~f .ia is defined by a spectrum of 1 -
, 3 . curves at two percent damping. The spectrua is amplified from t, !
-g what we call zero ~ period acceleration to a point which is 3.2 a* 3 ,
, 3 f times the sero period acceleration.
- g. ;{f '
The zero period acceleration is .23g. So the e!
t nl; midrange of frequencies of interest, that would be .8g. At 3 other darping facters this varias. It's certainly higher for 1
3; [1 lower damping facters --
I ^ 1 '$ i l . CIIAIRMAN MILLER: Higher for what?
- s < a ;n e a
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i
3 1
1 1
il 1939 l F .
d u
CD t
mpb4 if WITITESS BROEIIL: . IIigher for' lower damping factors, A
2[;
?" and lower for higher damping factors. This is defined in the l 3 SAR. .
s s s BY tiR. ID.FOUR*1:
Od s1 Q Would it help to usa the board? I den:t und.ar-GN stand your answer at all.
.o 1 .
1 i . t. '
i
- 7[ A (Uitness Brochl) There's a figure in the FSAR I
.a ji that describes it completely.
9h C1!AIRIO.N" MILLER: At what pcge? What8 s the refer-1 l'
m; ence?
f
- (
UITliESS DROE!iL: Figura 3.7-1; tha G23 is 3.7-2.
I,
- g. b- EY MR. KAFOUK'l:
t3 0 Is there a graph which you can ecsily put on tha V 3 g !' 4 board for all to see and explain that way?
il
- g i MR. DANKS
- That's what this is that he's talking' L
i<
.,3 [. about. It is a graph.
ii
. - (*; MR. KAFOURY: It night be easier to put it on
. . b the board than to pass it around.
e.
.s !!
w p CHAIRMAM MILLER: Well is it feasible to cut it -
e~ i..t '
. .4 -
on the board? ,
- 1 iii WIT!!ESS DROEHL: It's a rather cc= lon diagram.
1
. .. CIP.IRMMI MILLER: All r!.ght. Chon vs f ll u:e the
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~
diagram.
e
" Let's have the diagram nar:ted for id:ntidi.:ation.
t w .;
MR. BANKS: We can make ccpiss c2 the dir. gram v .;.
1h O
a lt ii H _ _ _ _ . . . . , . . _ . _ _ _ . . _ . _ . . . . . _ _ _ . .
- : =. -
2.::. . - :: - .-.2. - . - . - -
i! 1840 !
[ l 1
[N. mpb5 1 and make it an exhibit.
s )A 2' CHAIMiMI MILLER: If it is being referred to I y
3 a0 ' think it should at least be identified. !
M =
0" MR. "J.FOURY: That a' he fin 3.
ti.
5 wit!ESS DROEHL: That's 3.7-2.
- e. .3 ; ,
- 3di; CHAIMfAN MILLER: That will become E:chibit, for i *. 7 I't identification, Licensee number 17.
- 3! (ifhereupon, the doctur,ent I g .__ _ . _ _
D ij referred to was marked as 5;
b
? "> [l Licenace E::hibit number 17 i for identificaticn.)
CUAIMIAli MILLER: 2 Both sidas oi. the paga will be f c
(e) considered marked for identification, it boing apparont that 6 cne side refers to one subject and tho obverso sido refers to i
e u l' f
another. i s
I H, I: Do you wish to see the disgram, M . Kafoury? I f1 17 !,i MR. KAFOURY: I would.
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CHAIRMAN MITAFR: Does anyone have a copy? I l es '
I,
- think Mr. Kafoury'is entitled to see it and the witnesses E i,
e' :
- 20 ;, obviously are going to have to refer to it. We are going to i n i aj ,. need one more. -
i 0
22 4i- MR. DANKS: I might say thia. has been in the Il g :; discovery rcom. I think some peopic have scen i:. maybe. .
I 24 ] don't know if they've copied it or not.
n/. n g CHAIMIMI MILLER: Well, I'm sura it has, but the li
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-. . , _ - - , , ~ . . - - - -- ,
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it t
1841 I n
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!(~~ 'mpb6 I witnesses haven't. !
U[(5 '-
2 WIT!TESS DROEHL: It might help to' describe that ;
i-c a d in a little better terms by saying that the p,
cro period -
4 acceleration is -- ,
f C D'l BY MR. KAF'OURY: , j t) .Q If. tat do you maan "zero period occalarction"? l r i 7: A (Witness Broahl) If I may centinuo.
['
. 3 The cero period accoloration for the structures i
.m . m 5l
, Oj speais of the period which is tha inverra of the fraquancies ;
n; l and ntmbers--as the frequency incracces tha nt:6er, the in- !
4 l'
4 verse of it becemos smallcr. It's -just enc over the fraquency.)
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What we call " caro period", normally ncminally i
[
4 l
/' 7
\
- 3 ij thoso frequencies above 30, 35 cycles per second. They're 4 a
l 1 i yi not amplified. ,
1 l
$3 , DR. MC COLLOM: Can you explain why that is true? 1 1
' I
,g Why is that considered zero frequency? 4
/
1 1 n j WITNESS DROEHL: I'm really not that 1.all equipped;
.l f
, 3 }'l to explain why. That's really a seismologist's crea, t
- v. ,
, i I
- m. ; DR. MC COLLOM: I wonder if it isn't hacause j "cu .
- r ;
- w i.i above those frequencies there is no input frem ths.: enrthquaka
-r !
p .
. spectruu.
3 d,I 1
N, WITNESS DECD!L: The amplification is -- the {
' 4 g ji. functions of the amplificatien, or aplidic tion ara bayond
{
h the scope of my knowledge. The fact that they cra not ampli- .
to s s e !
, i O fled I'm well cuare of. And I believe uhat you're saying ic
%-w . ) ~~ n 1
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-1842 l l
P mpb7 correct, that there is no input there, number one. Because l
%o)) 7 A
t
\
the frequencies that are in the ground response spectra that :
^
3I we see most often in the earthquakes are down in the very low !-
i ' ,
l 6 :l. frequency rango, in the order of twe t: --
1.'o11 cc cn c:::mpler '
- i i
,, 5 !! in the Ilumboldt Day, I believe they got in tM pech enos up as '
s ,
f~
o 5 d high as four or fiva in that one that wcc r ported Iy Mr. Dodds.
4
. 'l -
il 7j DR. MC COLLOM: Again, the very tsrminology ;
l u ,
l 6! "zero acceleration", "zero g acceleration" implies no input.
l 4 -.- . . - .-.----l 9' WITNESS BROEHL: I?..'s zero pericd acceleration. l li :o We're not speaking of the high frequencico. There's no ampli- l i ;
fication of the high frequencias. I 3l '
!2 ! But the bcca acceleration that we censider is $
ja i'
Ui .25g.
- V .
g DR. MC COLLOM: I believe my original statement 1
- 3 probably makes most sense to me at this point.
l .
l
. e ,! (Laughter.) l i
j:, ,i WITNESS BROEHL: In the two to cight cyclo range--l 7 lli.
- = BY MR. KAFOURY:
t ,.
l
- j -
g, 0 By " cycles" you mean that the earth moves this
, Nl g l
j
,j [i way and it moves .this way, that's ene cycle? ,! l Il l!
i d;'.:d A (Witness Droehl) That's one cycle, hert as the i l e
I g h modern technology calls it; but it's the full cycle, the moticn' il r.y" !: one way and the other way and then hcch to aero. That'c the l
Q 1 24 CYCL **
pb' g In the frequency range of two to eight cycles per :
. (G .
i
%m., 4me .em ete - .e- w. -
-t. -
_ . . . _ _ . . __. _ __ m_. _ _ . . _._
- I-l 1843 1 -
1 1
,/^ } . mpb8 1 second, this is the flat portion- of the curva of the maximum V .q 4 l
s 2 .1: amplification, and that portion of the curve is the part where 1
- l, i
._. 3:l. you see most of the heavy portions of the ground responce you - '
i J"
really see in a trea tine-histcry el an e.nrthqui!.::.
1 1 y J In the report that' Mr. Doddc prenanted on the l u
- j Ilu=boldt Day, they had several peak accalornticns that were
- p 7I ,
reported, and these were in the --- as I recall, the 2, 2.5, 4,
! G 4.5 cycles. It was in this portion. This was where the .2, 9 the .3 accelerations were e::prassed.
~
20 At Trojan with the respons3 spectra at two per-j
.! cent damping, which is the basis for cur design, the anglific2-
- .2 tion would state that our plant ic dasiined for .37 Tor the 552
![!
N 'S l ,
For the .15g ODE we arc designed for 60 parecnt of that, or t .; ' .40g.
14 #i At the .11g OBE it would be slightly in excess of I.
1.* .] .35g. So the !!umboldt Day earthquake at these frequencies --
il d these are the frequencies of interest -- this would not have a
5 ;s h been an ODE at Trojan, even under the reduced critaria.
n 9
's ,, That's what that curve tells you.
- e. a >
, ;,0 i 1
O What is to be avoided in earthquahas is amplifica-y ,
tion, is that correct?
.n j A Mould you repeat t:he question?
- Q ?Tnat is to be avoidad -- what ia nec to be.
- J desirad is emplification, right?
m i
,3 e
g 7.5 A Mc. Ic.plificatica jusc de jribas the basic upon
+
e 1
of bl t
'*"*W. m.-h. usa . Jam . .. ,w ., ,ai, y
_= _. _ . _ __ . _ . , _ . _ , _ _ _ , .
e i-i -
1844 '!
l ;
5 mpb9 7 which the seismic design is developed. -
I 2 MR. KAFOURY: I hate to tal:e up time if everybody f j- 7
.l-1 t ^
3' understands e:: cept me. j
.o CI!aI?JOJ .%CLLER: Would feu lika to hras Dr. <
,, 5( McCollom ask questions about the curve? :*t might help, I think{.. .
.! 1 o;. perhaps. .;
ie d j 7 !'s MR. KAFOUP,Y: Please.
I'
!* 3 DR. MC COLLOM: I would like for the record to
.t _ _ _ _ . . _ _.
9 ! show that this is tho first tir.e I have over saIn this curve ~.~ ;
i !. ,I 10 ' MR. IGFOUR'Is It's been in the docu~.c:.t roo:a for l i
11 ' , several renths.
t I
- E
- CIIAIRMMi MILLER: As I say naith3r the witnesses ;
[
r .
- 12. I I
nor the Board have been there.
\
t 14 i (Laughter.)
and la .3 i
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^ " b ebl 1 ;f DR. MC COLLOM: I'd like to make sure that I under '
I il
~
~')
' ^ :4 2 ';j stand what this is because if I do, I think I can go down ,
,i -
,1 l the sequence of things that would describe it as to what it C J. 3 - is. t
- s. 2 ,' If this is tha ucsign racpanso ; sare. Of an earth '
4 I
? .) quake -- !
'o
.! l E 7 I
t WITNESS BROEHL: That's correct. Thrt's Uhat they } J t '
.' 3 call the smoothed spectra.
I fh- DR. MC COLLOM: The smoothad cpectra of tha design ! (?
;g 'j basis earthquake.
1 . WITNESS BRCEEL: That's correct. '
;I } .
M, q DR. MC COLLOM: A'll right. r~ y gi g v} 3 ll g !! p Now.this table, as I understand, a design response spectra 13 created by taking a simple oscillator of a mass 3 4
- )
0
- 3 and a spring and a damper. The denper of ecurse is charac-4 gg teristi.: of the damping here, 1 percent, 5 percent, or uhat-
.;7 [ fiaTre;yau. And they shape that and lock at the response, the i
.i e
3 ,:l valor:lty, and the displacement of that with respect to the 1 i
- i .
.;g y groaad. And the acceleration. All of those things are ,
. 7,9 repee. wanted on this curve. j
,u !! The acceleration is on the curva going fren the uppe'r 3 ,' Jaft corner to the lower left corner en slanting ding:nal
; [ :ars, t
m The displacement goes from the upps: right corner ! t
,s /
(u j' . . , , to the icwer left ccrner on slanting bars this way.
,< .j ,
l 1 8'e-=
. e emee - -Ng.g.m-w+ -.ame-=, -+
- -~. . - . . . . . = - ..
. F
? 1846 8 1 :
eb2 I
/'M 1 ,
And the velocity goes on the vertical. . (y"/ - 1 2 And then of course period, or inverse frequency, t i 3} , goes in this way. (Indicating. ) ,' 4[ CHAIRMM MILL 2R: Is that yotr .w 2rattndi.g Sir? ! ' i' i
,p. 5 r.. WITMCS3 BROEHL: Yoc. To say lurther, thic is tha 1 D I G li ground input motion -- ,
{a l . !
- s 7 DR. MC COLLOM: Yes. .
l b WITNESS BROERL: -- at the ground leval to the
, structures. - -
9 lI 4
*0y
, DR. MC COLLOM: Chay.
1 i 1; j Now off of this tho ma::imua valtas of the responac p : rz ! I of the oscillator aro of particular interest, cnd this can be '
- g. ; ,
t ./ ja stated by an equation. And that equation is related to the i! y, maximum energy absorbed in the spring. The spring cf course 15 is characteristic of the building. , i l 13 CHAIRMAN MILLER: Isthisyourundarstandinh?
)7 WITNESS BROEHL: Yes. -
l k a gg DR. MC COLLOM: Will you stop me if I depart frca 4 ,
' ~
g I
! what you think is reality? ,
. 20 (Laughter. )
I p,; [ CHAIRMAN MILLER: I just want to bra sure that this a is the panel's tastimony, -- i
)
l
;3 y (Laughter.) )
il g,g , CHAIRMAN MILLER: -- if thev concur with the seme-x (Op j
, 3,, what' detailed questions of Dr. McCollon,
%/ ,
#*' -'***** 4,.9.i.i.sge+./ .%gg w g.4,. ,, ,
== --
= .:-. a..==- - - :- .; ===- .
. = ex: \
i , 1 I 1847 l l 1 l .! 5
/~T - eb 3 - 1 j., If.at any point you do not concur or you wish to N
- V; j
O li modify the way the question is framed in order to make it 3l your answer, please do so. . m ( 4 I: You may continue with your questicaing, Dr. McCollo:-
! 9
" v 1
" 0. DR. MC COLLOM: Fror.1 this aquation which has tha l H
e 0 ilo energy in the spring, uhich is the energy imparted to the [ yh. building,youcanobtainavelocitywhichsometimesisre-j 1= 9 u ferred to as the pseudo-valocity, that is, the velocity that l
- q. _ ._ . - . _ . _ _ _ . _ . . ._ _ _ . .- . i c ', corresponds to the ma::imum velocity, the ma:timum displacement, 0
0 and maximum acceleration. 1 to / Is that true? i {. ii
; :5 '7ITNESS BROEHL:
. Yes.
I m} DR. MC COLLOM: New when the various desquencies 13 J of the building are known, I presuma you can enter this at 4 y that frequency, comeu'p and intersect the curve at that damp-33 ing factor, and pick off a displacement, an acceleration, { 13 and tha velocity for that frequency. Is that truo? 1
-[ ;7 ; WITNESS CHRISTENSEN: 'le s , that's true.
I a jg DR. MC COLLCM: And that is how ycu use.this curve,
- I
;p h '
and that's the answer to his question as to what this curve
, gg i i
' means. ,
l' el ,,.i WITNESS-CHRISTEMSEN: Yes, r; b e CHAIRMAN MILLER:. This curve then, I tche it, g j! !
. ,= b refers to Licensess' E::hibit 17 for identification.
Is that M n.w ,1 3, correct? N .i Yes. i WITNESS BROEHL:
'Q "
j$. ' s' y N. , .. -. .
-.-. ~
-- - .r - .,
- - . - . - .- . c.__: 2
- z. ._. :- - 2 ._. x x.-
l a, . 4
! 1848 i
1[- r '~") eb4 BY MR. KAFOURY: [ 2. j O Who is in charge of onsite construction observation for PGE7 - 3[i . 4 !] A (Witnssa Brochl) At uhat period o'f hina? c 'lo -- O Nell, during the construction of the plant were I i i- I
'3 ;
. there more than enc pcsple -- more than one person?
I* ,
'E 7 A In the initial phases of the construction, our .
I v 6 f, resident engineer was Able Dunning who was assisted by' Jake : i
- y. - .._. . . ..- . _ . . .-.
l 3 ' tildersebacs. Mr. Dunning left the co.mpany about, ch, a third l 1
;0 of the way through the construction and Mr. Alfersebnes
{
! l 11 j became resident engineer and has continusd in tP.ct c pacity '
; since that time. ; l g(') '
; ;3 0 And there were from three to ten field ongineers 1
l l v ' at PGE who were on site during the entire construction time; l t.; i ; t l ig - is that correct? 16 ; A From three to ton. This varied; as I said earlier l 3j, I there were about three in the early phases, and we got up as ; e - s 1 i
" .g3 [ .high, as .I- recall, as ten during the latter part of the t
' l ' l gi construction. j
[ g Q And what was the full range of the dutiec that they' i g were called upon to perform et that time? I i , g ,l A Really, the over-all understanding and acnagement '
- l. i a l' l of the conctruction project. In the early phan-3 it ';ac ~
v 4 . - g[ .i strictly related to construction.' In the latt3r phases it 1: l - was relatsd more toward equipment and systems' final Q .g L e
- g. ,
b t'**., +sk-- we hmg+ ..g myg'Eh 54'GG D $6 *hA4.n+'PD *mmur 8' 4 1nW W6 N 'S tw g %a
_._ . ._ - ~ . _ . _ _. ._ .. - m_ _ -
= _a .;.2_u.. .
I (' ! i ' l1 i 1849 5 eb5 installation, checkout and startup. we 4 1
! 0 !}
u Q Did they have authority over-all at the work place 7: ' 6 ? 3y A- What do you mean by " authority"? {-
;- !i
; 'j Q Authority in the sema sence that you hava '.ino of li authority in the corporation for whi:h you work. .
-.) '.i A You mean could they shut doun the work? Could they--
- j) 74 Q Could they say No, don't do it th ~ way, do it j 4,
i
. .r u[._
, g. .this way, or You're fired, or what could they cc7
~
,9( , i
~
'A The engineer working for us is an indapendent ~ ~
3
,0jf engineer. He had full responsibility fcr hirs dssi?n.
.}
- .g Q I'm sorry, new who are you talking chout? 8 h .
f pf, l A- Bechtal Corporatien. m .'
)
t - gl Our field engineers could not chango the engineer's'
;4 p design since they did not have responsibility for it. Their I
.. I g3 ; responsibility extended to seeing to it that the construction!
ll
;g i on the plant was 'done in accordance with the intent of that b
g" design. And if there was any deviation from that they cor- ,, i j 5, .g3 { tainly had the full force of the company behind them to do e f
. IL .
9 h,, what was necessary to see that it was done prcperly. ga ., i n
. go[ 0. In response to Interrogctory 3 from the columbia
+
r d t 3-J Environmental Council -- that's on page 4; you m y Jant to b 3 C look at it - P .' ,
' ~ . ;;
4 A .(Witness ?rewing) What data in that? . g ;y it Q- Well, it says "Rasponses to Interrogetcries dctsd' p ' - y-
; ~g .ip October 16." And they *. vere served October 27, appere.atly.
t i i i
. . .w--e v - - se.Q a mown. - mea . .-.n.a ..~m-> --
. .L . ~.:: . . .
- ~
- i a:
.i-t 4 i 1-f 1850
.)
l ' .1 I: .C ss eb6 I MR. BANES: These are the ones you sent just before! J 9 4 T - the hearing? i , 3 MR. KAFOURY: These are the ones received by you - 4l a couple of weeks before the hearing. i i 5 MR. BANKS: You rocsived them Friday' < 1 MR. KAFOUnY: Yes, I received them just before the ,
. s. .
7' hearing. j! ! i j ,'v , G BY MR. KAFOURY: . .j . . . . -. _ . - . . _ . _ _ ~ _ __ 7 - 4 ii R 0 It says in the first sentenes of the response: 1 i i 10 PGZ contracted with 33cht31 for onsite i t
*1 ), construction management. PGE's construction nanagar 22 I was represented onsite by the project rasident 13 engineer and his staff." \
14 What was the reintionship between 3echtel'a con-15 struction management and the role of PGE's onsit-a super-16 visors? .I T ly! 17 A (Witness Broehl) The Bechtel construction manage- ^ I s 18 i ment interpreted the contracts and directed -- j . .j l~ 4
- s O ' Contracts with subcontractors, are you talking
[' to about? 1, A This is PGE's contract with the contracter?. i n -- and saw to it that the contract requirements i were carried out properly by the centractor. n} They '-lors our u agents, really an extensien of our organi::ation. And mny
- (r% ,
changes that were required in order to make the design and 4 s< % d 9k-e.
- M'n.7 a.Anm* h 14MH w 4 p wns " b *
\m wp-=7-
i
! 1851,l eb7 1 the contract come together were recom: rended to PGE b the 1
}
v/,' i 2'l Bechtel construction manager, and PGE approved those changes. 1
! ',.I 3 MR. BANKS : I might add for the Board's edifica-
- e d [i tion, the reason that Pr. Erickson hand;d up Do 7G.B is the i
!I i
, 5 !! interrogatcry ansue:: goes beycnd what Mr. 7.afcury read. The .
, i j
, G f' answar to the question that he just asked is in the inter- f, 7 rogatory. It says the FSAR defines the responsibility of'the i
it I. two organizations. ,
.,- p BY MR."KAFOURY: 'h Gg 1
Q In other worJs, Ecchtel uss '.hc designer-engineer 10h i' 11 j, for the plant, and at the onsita construction, acchta'. had la[d the contract for construction management and their role unu i
\
) m between that of the PGZ stpervisors and the contract workers?
14I A (Witness Broch1) That's correct. I i would 15 ' O THey would-- That is, the Bechtel pecple 16 > observe the onsite construction and report to the PGZ staff
)
17 [ on the scene with their suggestions and so on? t I
; e. la A More than suggestions. They were ranaging those ;
i . , t + l, ,
's i!
i contracts and any required changes they would negotiate the {, ,
- g. 4 I
. 3 [ chances with the. contractor and then meha recommendations once!
- h. . !.
21 j they had completed that work to PGE. PGE mtda tha final j i
.c, ' decisions on any changes. i 4 I as O About how many peoplo dM 2e:htsi hcv3 onci':o v
.i
.g" 3. I during the time history of the ccnstruction of ths Trojan [
f)~) g j g l
.v l Nuclear Plant?
r _-n-, . . . .
i 1 ( > i' s. 1852 ' { eb8 II A Well, during the major portion of the construction, ',
. l' i im 2 '
there were approximately 50 to 60. Toward the latter ende on .
.I 3 'o completion, I believe the nunber got as high as 90. !,
^
. o .1 y !. t. ,
,. so '
3i: 1 a
.. i e ;
I I
;* 3' :
h . _ . , . _ , . . . - . .=._ _ - . . . . _ . p ..... - 4
, s h.
- !)y -
.I i 1 .
1 t' e Yo ' s 36 l = 14 ' I i
. s.
i 15 ,
- - _ _ _ . . l . 17 si
- I 4 ,
IU ,)
$ eI g O* , 4 i ? ~!
. '20 .
'21(j !l! !
le .g . i*
*1 e.W81er
- .u ji .
- t e e
\a" II
. i.
it . . _ .. _ - _. _ , . . . _ _ _. ._. M$re .cphr wh -
.re e 4mm ees .,4 -6
. . . . . . . - - . . . -.8 - . -. . .
= . . - .~.-- ---- . . . -=. =. w.: .- = w.
R ,
. 1853 t-pp) 7, -
1C asbl 1' Q Ala I corract that there is sorde confusion about
! 8 2
.,,. how much steal is in tue walls of tne control builuin97
'3 ,
^
h A I bellava you'ra incorrset. In uy mind, thare iu no 00nfC1,1Cn. Q There is no ur.11 ir. which thcra i: 0 0.c. acastion g g l' t about whsthar or not it has steel. reinforcc:acnt? i.
! A No. ;e g.
( J Q._- Now I believe you said yesterday;that bha function. f q ; . , .
~
PGI:' u pecple on-site during constructicn was to sac tnat f l 1
. v.,,.. c \
q 3sc't.tsl followed its own quality c.scuranca j regram. That's 49 I costrect? I dis ! A That's correct. o ( 0 . And this was accomplished largely by exa:aining 14 records, is that correct? Is It was a combination of audit and inspection. 15 l 16 l l , Q What do you r:.ean by audit?
.i
. A This is examining records.
3 l: Q And by inspection you ucan looking at ucrP. in i -)
; progress?
l A That's correct. , n,
~'
'O Could you explain in a bit re.oro detail the I:la
-, }
of tha 14RC Staf f 'in observing construction, rzviv.7ing
" I CCnStr'.'.ctf On?
t b "t A The Ragien V perfern1d 0.udita caricdic:.11'. .
,/%.
i
~ -
.( " t both anncunced and une.nno nced, during tne cours: of U
' -*C "L%E8S -r-eame Ne o a.p,.._J .s ,, _, ,
y-
1 1
- a 1854 -
1
'lf l 3_ ,.: l
\ r t .
I I agb2 ?.} construction. And they would typically ccme on-site for
~._ g i il three- cometimes a four-day period and. view the work, view ;
i, ,. a, .. ! ,
\
g d2e, quality control records, perform scue requested survaillan' I c'
] checks and tcata, observa tacting that .ma guin; n, cand ,
n- l . 1' E
,; at the cenclusion of their innnection -- which w.;r not an " ~4 .
l jj accompanied-tyce thing, tuay had full cr.d fra2 accaca to the l
..q
' j. project, could spea'< Vith the workman, supervi cra - over CT .l 1, the entire project -- we would have an exit intarview, - -?- '
3.,c. ) inwhichtheywouldinformusoftheirfindingc,cc.yprcbleusl 1
~. or potentici problems that they had obceryc'.. on cur *:ork, !
e
, and would also discusc prob 12.s that hrd cor.2 up on ctuer i
to
'~ , projects, so as to forawarn us of defects in tu c ualiti 7, .
3s 1 M)
." I program that they had seen alcewhere to give un an cpportunity.
\
m j, l
.. . : I
i to bolster ours, if it were needed. It was a vary useful !
l 15 ' and licipful effort on their part.
! Q And about how long was the pericd of cons cruction
; 1 l! '
of the plant? l l i l, * \ 5 \ M' A Construction -- we received our construction oermite
\
\
It)- 'h in Februa'my of 1971. We started the on-sita activitiac roughl! i e o "O the first of March, when wa raally got on-site, in 1971. 1
.n
%'e completad the scacntial part cl c.c. constructien-
- , in the fall of 1975, received our operating lic..ru in n-4 '
November o : 1975 and placed the pinnt d n~ ar.ric- .. ; . m ;t er , i o
- So that wa , oh, something over 4.5 years.
ll a J M :'r Q Arid do you knew roughly how many tir.23 tac Nr.C l
. . . . - . . . 1
. _ I
- -.- :- - - ._ .: . ; -- - _.: == : : .= . = :
=- =,--
<i l 0 1855
; 1 l
1 (3 agb3 l Staff, counting both announced and unannounced visits, -i ) ,
; P 2 !
dropped in on you? A I would have to hazard a very wild guass. I hava ' l i
/*. II no --
't !!
[
~
fj CHAIRI!AG nILLER: Don't gucss, plet.sa. If a
- g . you hava a judgment, you umy give you best opinicn. If
-i .~ ., I you don't have, then we don't we.nt you to cenjecture.
I, i - l .- - _ . . WITNESS BR0mff M- Y'd woll aware M h w many
'k o{ Butwhenhucounttheu,it'svary l.
i
*[ times they were there. I to 'I l
difficult to get a good number. I d say pechably 30 to 40 8 I 11 times. This is the ranga. 1*' BY MR. KAyOURY: A
" 13 Q Who kept records? Who made records and who !
14 1 kept records? l g# i , 1G. BAliKS: Of what?
' I 1
10 l BY !G. KAFOURY: l 17 '
-Q Of conetruction. The same records you'va been
'. E referring to.
I N A (Witness Broehla) We have cany, many racords,
- e. .
i **
' '.} Q Whari the NRC Staff would , drop in, they would 1
21 axamine records. j Would they examina rocords crntad and 44
^*i possessed by PGE, created and possessed by Uccht:1 created 23 ;} and pocacsced by centractors, subcontractors? ha?
. .c d M j, A I guass you really hava to understand the quality i si j ?T assurance program.
'j .
i
. * - - - . . . ~ - - - - , .. , _ , .,- , . .,... .
1AA' * h-Mh- 19'M %e8l'mid M d o*N. gr e <.se= = . * --= T - - r -- - -- - - ** = - - - - *--' - - -w. --
..-. = . = = = . - . :- - -
i I~ i 1856 ] agb4 The contractors have the primary rospensibility
}
w . .. a' n s l for the quality of the work. { l, o i Q Excuse me. What do you usan by that?
#) A M211 they var hired tc insta..'.1 21: .=/b ri r. '.
- d. .
D. j and 2quipcont in accordance with constructi:n :a:nt:. cts , t
, El and design drawings. That's whac tnay wcra Sci:/J p:.id for. [
? They had a program that was developad whers
]
' + r I. they made records of what they did, which provid2d objective ! , 4 ! O evidance that that work was parforr.ed in accordanca uith ! t
,e i f
'~ j: the raquiretcents.
Il (( Now, those ara the primary quality nasurt.nce, l ' \ l D G h quality control records. ! [) 1
,f Ul-II Q Are these delivered at the end of avery day l
i o s 14 '! to PGE, or were they kept by the centractora, wero they }
}
1
!5 . delivered to Bechtel? .
10 A They were kept by the contractors until tae , a i 57 L' work was completed. And then, at the completics of tne oork,; I i l ', 18 the quality assurance records we.+ . napiled into packag s i j- !' i 19 . and those records'were delivered to PGE. . I
. 20 . Q And who had the right to inspect taasa rs:crds . 0 21 I,j without notice?
i, 22 0 A NRC. D 23 'l4 Q F.cw about 3echtsl? d
, 24 },; A' Bechtal'had full access to the records during
/ d
( y,5 P their development. The dccumentation was, say put in tha
- 1 t;
- 1- . . _.__ .. . . . _ _ _ _ _
N * %#W8 4 r- 5p.at . psi *titN,p ens- g.,.,-4,y... g. g ,
.~ - .- .- .. :.: = : w. = . ..a.
U s 1857 s i i Da t ! agb5 files on completion of the job. Bechtel inspecteu the (7 -l l 2 I contractors' records. We inspected the contractors' records,i i
! 3l and Bechtsis' inspection of the contractors' records. And l' I I 4 [j c1RC inspected all of us. )
. !! l
# IIcv many different construction companics were f; O v
6*i involved in the building of the plant, roughly? , 1
.- t A Approximately 30 to 32 major contracts.
f I' a l -i -__ 0- -- What was your role at_this time? .._. i 1
- y . _ _ . . . _ . _
i A In the early part of the project, I had tha i l
'O Vi responsibility of the design development, licensing and !
II {j i i I the construction role. l' p~ i i The construction p;:.rt was diractly associ:.ted
/ U with the resident engineer reporting to me. Later, as our I
project organi::ation developed, we hired a construction l 15 i manager. The resident engineer now reports to tnat constructic. 16 manager, and I had a functional responsibility over hin l
.. I' for the rest of the construction period.
p-l L1R. KAFOURY: Does anyone know whether the ,
. \
I9 , eExhibit 18 has been received back -- Exhibit 17, rather?
- w. .
l
- U 11R. BANKS: It just came. , j l
2I (Documents distributed.) l
.j l 2 l BY iIR. KAFOURY:
" , Q Fir. Brcehle, how many f. cts dc ycu t 2ed :c Jacw !
h
/ M about in eartaquake in order to determina whether or not D: l \
h EU ! it is a design basis earthquake? !
- i l i l! !
. ~ . - , . ,
_ - - . _ . _.4 , . . . _ _ _.. . . .
. .. . . . . . - -.. - - . - - . - - -== =..--.--------------~:.x..
I d 1858 if .m }
/ \
agb6 t A (Uitness Brochle) As defined for Trojan, we 4 ]7 s
- j,
! would consider generally a design basis eartnquake as one 0 !j which er.ceeded the design response spectra critaria in the
.? ';
.t SAR.
i
*~ 5-l Q The alcuents that go into tuct are volcciSy h
G r, . . ?; in inches per second of the building?
~
, 1 .'8 A No. .
?
llle O ' -1, f Q Ho. .. What is thelcrtical a::is? __ ' t! '- 3 ll ~
) A What we're spsaking of is ground inpe.t metdon -
t 10 L i p- this ir tha measurement of the carthquake, net the building j it i i but the ground. I 1 .3
'~ i'
- I : 0 Velocity relates to mass, right? 11cas cnd
- il 12 [ \
movement? l u" . A You have to differentiate between the building i; l and the ground. I (6 : =i O Right! t ' g' i
; A Our design earthquaka is based on ground motion.
I
- i '
.*n
]..'. l Ground motion can be measured on acccleration and fr2quency. I. 1E ' 3 h ! Q Right.
-i 1,
+g. .
)
'
- 20 i A And they are all interrelated, so you can tche m'
~
D any part of this and these things you're scenaing ci are it . j;
"- M]i.. functions of it. i n
8:- Q Right. M Which functions determine whether ycu hav: :
- ( on 6
-( . l design basis earthquake? You have ground acceleration,
.i i
4 8 w ++-o.-- $ a Ah#f gw-pg u .me-- r%.g. v.- .-%=
~ . :._ _; w ,;; . :., .- .. ,- -_.____;__
- i r 1859
\ T agb7 number one. What's nuiser two and what's number three?
1; MR. BANNS: Just for the record and for h e Board's-l 3 benefit, I think we're talking about the design basis 4 . i carthquaha new. And at ihnabcidh, ua utro aque.t'.W thnt , i i;
.)
ld with SSE. 3i i l CHAIRIWI MILLER: The Board equc.tes d?. sign bc. sis ; 4 .. . . i 3 j 7l earthquake as meaning safe shutdown earthquaks or SSE. g { !}
- 0' a --. We regard the two ter:as as synoycout,. Uylless scr.chody is
! 9 i going to change the definition on us, that's th2 wa the 10 Board is going to ragard it.- l 2 p' . MR. DANKS: That's what I was concernad with, i 1 , 1 g'o 1.: WITJESS DRGEHLE: We're talking r.thout the I ! l lh- acceleration at a frequency which would e.v.caed the curvo, j 14 ' ; j, based on two percent dalaping. 4 i 2 BY MR. KAFOURY:
- 1G O Q So you have acceleration, which is tua g-figure --
' I 3 '
A And the fraquancy or period. j
'3
. Q And the frequency. <
19
, { How about the duration, in that e.n clar.cnt or not? !
6 <$e b I- .'20 . 2- , A - No. , t
. aj !
I bel:sva it'r .'.r. O Somebody wants to object. ., 74, Christensen. 3l - i , (The panel conf arring.) N
/ h~) ,
i
'Q l , ) t,
. f. .
WN*'
- Le 6 a4 m4=
l - ". eg - 4 mw...
; gy% .9 .g .
94 . g.r_ e m
__.m ._ :._._._ _.______y .j !1 1860
. 1 1 ,. , 2a ,
1 ( 't WRB/mpbl CHAIRMAN ICLLER: Counsel, you said two percent : ' x
-~'
) .. \
l
\
.j 2 ,; damping, did you not? You said two, and I believe it was ! l i ! , l I 3 ,i five percent damping. P' MR. KAFOURY: I didn' t s a." ar"Y.1!.n r '.': c': .; M.: .. -- 1 ; 1
,- 0 y,, ing. l l
, 60 CHAIPl-!Tdi MILLOR: I8m corry, it uny hcv0 b2en l li' l
~~
the witness. JN _i _Is it two percent on SSE or the design basis _ . _ _
'l
. . ._.: t..
l l O lhenrthquake?
*t l
\; ,
Ei jj WITNESS 3ROEHL: The ground input cpactra, as : 11 ! l
, t i 4(. was defined, is 3.2 percent amplification at two parcant damp- .
l
- s. <
.' (2 3 ing. This is -- our spectrum is haced on th:t, e.nf. tha other ' 12 curves ara appropriately placed to that.
! CIIAIR!IAli ICLLER: This is the first tino the
. t Board has heard that term in that respect. Wn hava not seen l I
l 10 ] that portion of the FSAR. So wo think us vould like to find I
' ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
i, out right now what we're talking about. I
, '. c5 K, [ DR. MC COLLOM: Let me question hare just a
, p .
ggl . minuta, may I?
- s. \ .
This design resecnce stoctra pr sur.e.d a cartain go !Il y, l earthquake and its duration and its frequencia p:2stnt to
- I I
nT; ;' start with, did it? (l r ll WITiESS CHRISTEN 3EN: That's corracc. ri t, f' ', ; y'
~
DR. MC COLLON: So from the viewpoint of dur. tion
/N, ,i l,
y ,/~ e 4 s of an carthquake, that is alresdv- built into this curva, d li H y h il Ii
tl 1861 1 1 . !/f w\ 1 . mpb2
- WITNESS CHRISTENSEN That's correct. The time 2 history - you explained it very well yesterday in that. the ;
I . t 3 , time history that would be needed to develop this particular j
. .l
'< : - curva would require that it be an earthquakn. of *2 furchi:n 3 lji that would be someplaca beyond 20 seconda. In F.dditica, the, i
, 3 h curve is such that it is made up of, say, a rango of three 7 different earthquakes, one near the site, one a msdium dis-I 'I tance from the site, and one far distant from the site, to
. ~
9 get the fregr_incy necessary to develop over the full range of. i 10 frequencies shown on this particular ground reopense spectra. DR. MC COLLOM: All right.
ll
,, Now, with that in mind, define f.:r m3 *.that the 4' N [
.s
) d lly amplification factor is that they're referring to in the FSAR.
! L 14 l'
l What does that do to this curve? Or what did that do to the I ts ' initial curve to create this curve? i 1
' -id Is that an appropriate questien?
;1
+ .i 0 WITNESS CHRISTENSEN: Let no explain.
4
.j
.i '. . c, 1
'i The 3.2, we initially had a response spectra at i
'j 19 two percent damping at around a period of about .4. 5, , 3 DR..MC COLLOM: Now what do you mean "cround a
,;.., period of about .4"? The damping?
1 v,.s ! iCTNESS CHRISTENSEN: No. Tha period, or, say,
, . ,d
- e. e :! a frequency of about 2.5 cycles had an amplification facter of b
m f y 2.3. h ,f . DR. NC CeLLoa: i:ow what do you maan 3y u! l _ _ . , , ~ _ ._
-_ ..___ - . . . . . _ . __ . . _ . _ c.. _ - _ _c.
e i . 1862 ! I ( } mpb3 L " amplification factor of 2.3"?
]
4 O ~9 ~' 0' I
. WIT!TESS CHRISTEMSE11: Okay.
+
, t 3i The amplification factor, as Mr. Brochi e::plained, _
J . is the multiplic: that you multiply the care period ground 2 3 e 2 1 acceleration timco. So if you icoh at the curvo that you i 9> e
, 3i have before you you'll note that appro:cimately care period, ,
i ( 7 ,i or it shows point zero one period, the acceleration is .25g. i t i
.!* . ah If y'ou continus on out you'll note you have a l j.4 __..__. .. _.
, . g: -.
If you go up you'll find that the accelera-g;
. ~ . _ _
D )/ pericd hero of
.4.
,' . e i , i ;'.' h tien is appro::imately for two parcant derping c:' nbcut .Gg. i
?
,' il DR. IC COLLOM: And that's the amplification jl G. factor? .I
.f ' i
,- p - '
j ( / M WITNESS CHRISTENSEM: That's correct.
- p'-
a
,. !4 '
If you multiply the .25 times tha amplification
-15 factor you get the .8g.
1 l DR. MC COLLOM: All right. I 13 [l l Now, then, let me ack this: 4 17f i < a , -J;' If we did not have this amplification factor
+
i' jg this .25g would juist' continue out straight en the acceleration {
- 1. ,
I 2c h. line of .25g, is.that correct? . t t L. . 4 ;; ; ,tTITHESS CHRISTENSEN: That tould ba cor sct, yes. ' i i ! 1 r 74 [ DR. MC COLLOM: But because at a given frsqu:ncy . t . 3
;c j which corresponds to a period dcun here, vcu '.ra going to n
r- 4 y specify that it has a given anplification fcctor which is ! /^\ '/ il y u g greater ehan .2sg hacause it's ampufiee. o rou core up ana you , 1 h (* e . - . _ -. - .-. . .. .
* '"b'4-'- w $- W- 4v Ww - g 93.pe- .W.b rWor wA .- g, ., .,
m ,,
. - .-. ._ .;,. - ._ .. .__m-- _.m.. -
u ._ . m
!! l.
1863 Y mpb4 1; . intercept that point where you would have been on .25g at L/^ r 2 that frequency or period, multiply it by 3.2 and accept that { t t 3 as ' the g instead of the .25g. J i II WITNESS CIIRISTmTUmi: Chat's c.arr ct. i l l Sh As you explained earlier, a singis dr. gree of free-t
, 5 dom or a mass on top of a spring with some type cf n daping 7 spring would vibrate and amplify the ground r.otion to some
'd' value_above .25g, and that's why you hnva the magnification 0, factor.
i i i 10 (l DR. MC COLLOM: That meanc if ycu ris':ali a n 0 ( ' i p! spring and a mass, the mass sitting en top of the cyring, :nd c
'C [l you have the ground detm en the bottom, and ycr.
. 72 Wat up D) w Y
;s I and down with a given acceleration --
n
\
ji 14 WITNESS CHRISTEUSE21: Or sideways, 1 I DR. MC COLLOM: It's easier for me to see up and 15 l down.
.l;I
'l
- ;- (Laughter.)
, ;j -
Then this unit up here, which is on t5s snd of
* .o 1 .
1 P the spring, actually accelerates -- has en acceleration 3.2 is
- 1. i ,
2,3 times as great as the ground was moving it.
- WITNESS CIIRISOr.iSOI: That'c ri$.ht.
! ,9.2 The acce10 ration it ceas would *en an accelsrrtion a1 -- here if the damping was tro t;cr. :-nt vet- d : = it n . . h, t
a _.s, . . DR. MC COLLOM: 'Je:3.
- /xs\ .j i f ll T%/ .= ,4 And the russ on' too of it corrs.cpende tr ; part el ii 1
s an . + -- e,imy,.,s. .9,.gio.. .w.,44%, . ., ,,,,
,.g,,,u,. m
_ ..,...s._
.w u =. ; 2. : ..a .
m 1 e li . t- ,l [ 1864 I I I- i
- mpb5 the building, if you uish, that you're considering..
- x.
. s i
E ,
WITNESS CHRISTEliSEN: The fundamontal mode of the 1 3 jj huilding. If it happens to be, say, at that particular frc- l-
<- r :
4 , ' quancy, then we chott1.d uma th:.t particuir.: ::ala: r"ir.. l ,8 .: a . y S fj CL. if MI~LER: Thank you. f 4 , , Uy 9 Mr. Kafoury, you may proceed. f
.- i
^/ p
'i BY HR. KAFOUILY: I
, i l!
- li O .
Whatisthercngeofgroundcccelerationinterra[ l i 3 i 9id of g-forces under the possible SSE earthqua%cs? 3 .
- I- .0hr Do you understand the quastion? l il ,
i. i; A (Witness Brochl) At two percant damping it I
- ;d 1 I i
. .: [ follows the curve that you have in front of you. n goes j
's s j 3 I l ) D. !, from .25g at zero period up to a maximum of .8 g, and than j u J. , t I
;<! drops off at the louer frequcncies. .
I 3 1i ts ;i Q And two percent damping is the figuro that is 1
. f i
14 assumed for any SSE, or it varics? } j 17 ( A Ho. For any dampi?.g factor you hcyo a prcportica-
'. .c lq' ata level. The Trojan critaria and the bcsic for cur curve
* ,) .
s was an amplification of 3.2 at two porcent damping. ;
..5 i , !
'l
- r.0 d This is, you might say, the design curva Scr tha +
1 !. . h .i
- a +] ground input motion, and then all the other it.rting fcet
- rs for-8-
.t ]11! building design that you want to consider, thay ar prcportion-{
- q < h g ' ately higher or lever. ?cu can't cpock cf all ci tham. So you b j3* g l! use two percent damping as the basis for the d2aign and the , v 3 ,; discussion of the ground' input motion. And that's hev va wara sg
'hn' '
j h '.
-1 4
4 I .. . ,. . . . . .. - s
- u ._ - _.__ _ _.. 2..__- _ - - - - n ---- u ;7 1865 i ,
i b mpb6 1, licensed initially and how uo have designed tha structure and l d ' i ' ji O l ' the basis -for our scismic design as stated in the SAR. ' !t i . , 3 [l A (Witness Christensen) All I wanted to explain is
.; s !i -' '! that the curve .vas speci* ad "or two cor00nt iraf.ng. ' '.r; i SS3 i: '
[- 3h for our particular building is fiva percant d=rping. Sc you G,t understand that the design of the building is based on five. ; <,. . i ,l 7i percent damping. i ( .
- s
. 4i The curve had been specified to us on the basis .
q ._. ~ - p 9i of you draw the line for the two percent 'and then you ctin draw-
~
1i 'I <t i
~l0 I. all the other lines because they parallel that particular line.!,
1 i ;g Is that clenr? l
- 71 i n, A (Witncss Eroehl) The differont d
- cping factor:
7% p
' l l(x 13larearithmeticreally,
.i 14 A (Witness Christensen) You use for the building j a design for the OBE of two percent damping; for the SSE lj 5
i j
, .. you're using five percent damping.
9 ! t , l ,7 ! DR. MC COLLOM: But all the building damping i j ll factors are included at a smaller accoleration than tha two 3 }l s
, gg ;l percent curva. Ic'that important? l e ,j s j,* 20 WITNESS CHRISTENSEN: Maybe I -- I'm cor:1 i
,.n [H CHAIRMAN MILLER: Give us ten secondc.
..,7. y> '(The Board conferring.)
g il g
. 9 DR. MC COLLOM: I'll clarify my cbatcmant.
7 ga , What I was acking was: . A !
.(w ,gN, At a given frequency if the da ping factor you i
( . t
't
' Ij
. . ~ . ..6-.- - + . - _.%. . . , . , . . . , , ,
.. _ ..__ . . _ . . . . _ . . . _ __ __ _ . _ _ _ . _ _.~ .-
't i
- l t j 1866 i e!
i t
'[ mpb7 2" design to is two percent and the actual damping factor of the l
/ -
w./ ' {
~~'
2l building is five percent, then the acceleration that you *
-i 1
3 il would observe would be less than that that wcula ha observed
,e n ,
2 -i l l at t'.ro p?rccat
.i i i .
,, 5? UIETESS CHRISTC?SEU: That's correct. i i
2 C WITNESS EROEUL: That's corr ct. j, j 7 !' DR. MC COLLCM: Thorefore that ic a conservative ,i l'l i:j way of designing. l g I I WITNESS BROEHL: I think the tuo parcant damping i 10 -s ao ground input motion criteria is, say, of interest to just j s l it that. That's the bacis on which the total d9.uign 637elops. I ind that two percent damping doesn't hava 0.ny &ing to do with !, is 3', CBE or SSE; it has to do with che basic' acceleraticn and tha
,1
}
- 1
;;, j criteria on which you can get all the othar n.rsers to put a
iJ 3-a f in..o the building motion for whatever damping f actor is of ) i d; int 3 rest for that particular e::arciso. 4 i f, 7 '4 WITNESS CHRISTENSEM: You'ra correct in what vou - J
-i
.J,. stated. The conservativa dampaning factors that we used here !
, .'I. l 3
it j are:two percent for an ODE indicates that we are in t'te elastic} 4- i i g ;; range. And, as pointed out, as this gets c1csa to th= ' 4"4 t,
) .:
i
- i y y then your darpaning facter is going to incrcass.
J.n d' .3 0 these - f k g! k.i vere conservative in the use of the tuo percent for the CBE
'. il
' 't
.a - and the five corcent for the SSE in our casa.
,m
,- p il
,r CR. MC COLLOM: I would 11:2 to eM: scr.a other s
(5 _[ u j questions that may cid Mr. Kafoury in his further zusaticning, n%
+
O I
-,a -ew
.l 'I 1867 )*
1
' {
[+ i -, mpb8 1 if I could. j
\ .
M 2 CHAIRMAN MILLER: Do you mind, Mr. Kafoury? , i i i l- 3 MR. KAFOURY: It cant t hurt. :- i r^' 4 'i
. DH. MC COLLO*i: It hna to do with th3 insM t-l?
.. 5I ment:ation and the measurement you take to find out whether you l
,, 6 lr had an OBE .or an SSE, which is the area you're questioning in. lj 7 You have a group of frequencies or periods that !
I 1 l l 3l ' fou have instrunentation set at which wil_.l ._te_ll you when you j l
, j
- . 1 have an acceleration at that frequency of .25g, or whatever-9 j 10i .l other setting for an OBE or an SSE, correct? l 16 I WITNESS CHRISTEUSEU: Yea, at the presant time i
ta ' it is .11 for an 03E and .25. ; j (A)' ty 1 DR. MC COLLOM: Yes. # f it And that means that as you go across this table { i (S you're sampling how many different points with differont [ Id instrumentation measurements? ' 17 WITNESS CHRISTENSEU: If yoTilcok at the chart ib and you see a period of .04 and it goes over to a period of i gg .5, we are samplin'g 12 locations that on a log-1cq ccale are j 1
'g. ,
30 equal distances apart. ! I u m. DR. MC COLLOM: Now what that means ic von hav - i, n an instrument sitting there at each equal period incremant -- r WITNESS CH3ISTEUSEU: g 2ight. ve DR. MC COLLOM: -- all the way across that spact-
,b% .
G .g .: rum looking at the acceleration at that point and having a l i. i
I
,1 1068 ,f, j
'. t.
f
. ). mpb9- 1[;: means of alarming if-it exceeds the acceleration at any one i 3Q;9 2 iII of those points, or as reany of them that it '. e::ceeds. '
- 1 l
'l P 31!
i; ifITNESS CHRISTEUSEN: At each of those locations. '- e y : I. You're correct. J i U; '
,. DR. UC CCLLOM: Do you then ass e.a that if tha c 3; i
I .t;*; goes off that as far as the reactor goe: you hava an 02E if c 7 it is at the present setting, .11g, at any one of thcas, and
~
n I .e - 3 h, , if it goes off.. at .2Sg you asse.ne that you would hava an SSE l 9 f. on any one of those 12 different instruments? 1 d %
- ' WITNESS CHRISTEMSEN
- It wculd be - th Only '5 TC i!!. {
p . 1 (1 q correction I would make would ho that tiu .25 ti. ras its mag- ! J.
- t .lf nification factor at the particular frequency wou.~.d be :he f
.. [ N 15 I V) 121 N one that would set it off.
%j ,,
DR. MC COLLOM Yes. All right. That'~s goed. j t u i 13 [ I'm through, Mr. Kafou..'f. i a and 2a ,j, . k o 9
.7 d .
f l
- .. 1: g
'"I} ;
4- b , r r4 i- ! d . -
.!!. i
.n.4
.l, ;
Sne il 9
./ as
-.1 r 'l
*i
./ .
~9
- A/ !
U = 3'4
- n
'.l v s. *r ,..s -4 m ew.,
,..w. . , , , , , , . - _- -. ,
, , , . . g.p g-e a s . - . _ . . m._,. _ - , . -3
i - , . _ . . . . _ _ _ _ _ . . _ _ . _ _ _ _ _ . . _ _ . _ - --.u_; ;; _ ;x. .z_=_. ..._ .- 1 0 1869
,{- ,.
i a 2b ebl 3 BY MR. KAPOURY:
; A.185 2' O Mr. Christensen, I don't want to spend too much i,
., s 3::
time with this because it was covered to some c: tent yester-f i* as day, but uhere we have instrur.c7tatien, ac I h ali res " t iio
- t. '. ,
, ,. 5y at Trojan, do we not, whers a ground cccaleration ic nas.sured i ;.
)
, 3k along three axos, vertical, longitudinal, latitudins'., is [
i . L I~ 7 there any difficulty in accurately contriving frca thcae l
- 1 5f figures the actual g-force in an earthquake uhich cuts ,
S diagonally to, say, the two ncn-vertical anes?
, f.
'20 A Ofitness Broahl) What do you mean, difficulcy in l p i I
d eriving? !
*1;h i 12 O Is it readily done? Dcas it create a problem? Is f 13 it going to be more accurate if the earthquake happens to be M particularly in one direction than in another?
15 CHAIRMAN MII1ER: That's three questions, but I 1ti think perhaps you can understand what Counsel is trying to
)7 get to. y 18 I WITNESS CHRISTEUSEN: '
. I understand. .I chink what is I'm trying to relate is on our tine history accelerogram e '
- g. i 7.o l are able to measure a time versus acceleratien. And in using j i '
21
}';i those you would be able to determine a directic a1 c:re;cn3.',t i t
i a 7 that is of maximum value. ! The other type accelorcgraphs are meca : ring paths 7.3 'h, r d i so what they're looking for is the peak valua. But you do i fm, , e (vk p,g .L At the same tima you don' t have tha *ngofwhen[
)l not have-- :
,l>;
( ww . . a. ,._ wesumurym e+,.een. _ e esmaimpw wwe==s"- *ma wesse w -
, .w..
j' 1870 f u . a li I'n'E ~ eb2 1 i ' those peaks occurred. With tae time history you do have time " bh j and peak, so you can combine, at any one gi.ven time, the two k l P.
-l 2'I I i
5q components to get the maximum direction and value. {. ie . t 4 S However, as Dr. White points cut, thi ching rill !
; - t 4 ,
probably show you that tho thing has shifted in man:r dirac-
,. U ',-, t
,i 0 ', tions during the period of the acrthquake.
1 -!" i l
' 7{ BY MR. KAFCU2Y: i
\ i J'
' ,i . . 3! O In Exhibit 17, it was said that there is a time i l D' ' period, a duration of the earthquake assumad in this chart
- D and that it's something over 20 seconds. -
1! , A (Witness Christensen) What I scid wa0 the -
! 12 chility to make this chart assume scme earthqunhe cf at least I 3 : (
I g- 20 seconds. (s-}- '-
; ).
s l, 16 0 What do,you mean, the ability to maka this chart? !6
. ?
15 A Well, a function of a time history chart of an i g! earthquake would show that it is a series of accelerations 1 17 around a zero. acceleration. To develop the chart to have
, (c , enough frequency points you would have to have a minimum of
>, I
'l I
19j a duration of an earthquake of at least 20 seconds to develop 4- s t enough fraquencies across that time history to develop the m: full range. Otherwise'you would sea -- for one lika you saw i n.{ . yesterday on Humboldt, you would se e one spike that would ecmc f J i 7,3 up and maybe exceed cr' approach one of thecs line: and then t Y' 2/, . come back to the .25g and just extend right clong that line. ;
,/N ., i, Q p' m(
In other words'you wculdn't see the length frca { 3 4 r l..
- i. .'
"was.**
= . - , . ,
..., % ,m ,, ,. ,
-~ -" - - -
- .- . . . . . - . 7. __ ._
< . l n l f
@ 1871f( l d- j d, . i s- .
.eb3 1 this to.over here, you would just see one spike come up, come ,
[' 2 l back down, and follow the .25g line on. 3 Q The containment building of course is a Seismic .. ,
- i. e '
4 h! Category 1 building, isn't it? - 4 . 5 'lI A (Uitness Bro 3hl) That's. correct, l
!J ;
, GH Q Mr. Christensen, in your testimony, page 3, the
. ., p ~ . p 7 bottom paragraph says in the first sentence: j, . A _ _
- "If an earthquake producing measurable
~'
;j s' ground motion at Trojan were to occur (0.01g),
il 4 . 3 l, it the ground motion and representative structur0 cad
;i ti equipment response motion data would be cuto-e t ['
i 12
- matically recorded by the Trojan scismic instru-g mentation systems."
; ) .; My difficulty is with the word "representativo" is in the second line. e i
16 Isn't there a great deal of variation from build-i g7 ing to' building, from floor to flocr, between. structures t .
~
p- ;g and equipments so that you can't really say that any of them G ;g are representative? Or am I incorrect? 1 q .. ,
* ;c A (Witness Christensen) What we are saying there
): m is that we would be abla to devalep a tima history and again, ]
.i , .
0 '2 2 'j we would be able to develop a response spectra of an carth- ; e ' 23 quaka at the five locations that are mantioned in ny testi- j c g mony, i f'( .
.g (
( I s
'In addition, we would have the peaks at eight l; h .-
1
- m me'.+*-e-+eme-- e.e _ _ , . . . , , ,
.-.=. _ - . . - . _ . . , , _ _. . . _ . . ._ . . _ _ , _ _. _.
F e-v-e.. -- _ _ _ - _ _- _ _ _ _ _ _ . _ -
l
.. l
.!j ' 1872 1,i i b
, if
( \ eb4 1 ll other -- well, at eight locations. Plus we would have the : k l' ' I A 2 i,l response spectra of the base. (- [ 3 I[ Now ati those locations we could develop represen- -
/
0 i: tative response spectro. for that location frer. the datt.
+
,, 3[ O Would that be for tho, purpose of evaluating
?
- 3 il simply the earthquake itself?
. i,;.
l 7kh A Yes, and also for the building. :
' U S ;! _ Q Page 4, at the top:
l
,' Il
. _ _f f
;) j! "In addition to inspections and tests il mt a performed by plant oporaters following pir.nt shut-l
;) -
down after an CZE, engineering invastigations l' r i : would be conducted in two basic crees:...." , i F i 1 ( g3 and so on. j ( - l
- .4 l Who would be doing the engineering inv.sstigr.tions? !
l
;3 i.
A It would be people of my staff, plus any con-iS sultants we decided to hire. I
;7 >: Q And if you were to have an OBE earthquake at t
! i
, ;gl Trojan and Trojan was running at the time, when would tha NRC !
- I . !
iS hy be notified? Would you like to make a commitment on that j 9- D '
. 39 ;; with any greater specificity than required by the FSA2, or do !
i:
- g; you want to stand by their requirement? -
2h MR. BANKS: Mr. Chairman, I Tculd prefer that he
!! i
, i
.,3 j ask them the question. He's assuming that what h c bcnn nnid '
i
,. g (g. before is necessarily the groundrules. I think he cught to A .;
i l ask them. x.J l' , , . ,
-~ r Thev can answer that questien cc to when they would 1
I ' r i.. . . - . . - - . . . - - - . . . - - - . g e. s-A . .q pe.. a q yg.,e g % *% f * *=gy$.M e .*-M+=N =h
- .. . . . . - . .: :_._:--=.:.--:;====-------------=.-_.:
S 1873 i . I eb5 [. e make reports under varying circumstances. t 3[ l, 2l ; CHAIRMAN MILLER: Yes, I think it would be better 3 if you would address these witnesses in the form of a ques- I 4 ,li tion. i
'I
.. O{!,, MR. BMKS : I think they can answer the questien j it I G ll directly. I t
7' BY MR. KAFOURY: b' O What is your understanding of when you vould be 9[ required -- how coon you would be rcquired to notify the HRC 10 after an OBE earthquake? I (
)
I I 1 *4 h,i A (Hitness Christensen) Mr. 17ithers w:uld he acre i W' qualified to answer, i
). 13j Q Mr. Withers?
}
14 A (Witness Withers) There are two placas in the l
! 5 technical specifications which discuss reporting requirements !
15 M I related to earthquakes. I believe Mr. Dodds yesterday was 17 l talking about the item in the tech specs related to seismic
. m instrumentation which indicates that if that instrunentation '9 .
Is has been actuated by a seismic event that a written report 5 ,
+ would be made within ten days of that event.
20 j
- i :
, 4 21 t In Section 6.9 of the technical spscificaticna ;
t, t i where it deals with reporting requirements, thare is cas itan : I.2 '[ ' I 23 ;. under the immediate or within-24-hour rapcrtiar :cqui.:ar.6ut ,m 24 which talks about natural phenomena, acts of nature, which h j e,; t would result in the plant being shut down ac being irnediately t , i i
=p..-Am--> qui weggW 4 md+Wgna. T wh sw 4+
, a . .. .. x - -
. . - . - . -; - - ---- .- =.:.:.=-- ::::----- = ::. :. :=- :- -- .
.a :
t i f 1
- (' '1874
.s. .. ,,
eb6 1f reportable. 4 b' 2 So we would consider the occurrence of a seismic l 3j event which resulted in our shutting the plcnt dcwn as f alling . I ' i .
-,- vithin the definition covered in that sectica of tha.':echr4- -
a
., C.; cal specifications, and uculd cenaider it tc be r :>c'endict:1y 3, reportabis itam. As soon as the irmodiate action; had been !
+ .
7l : taken and we had verified the condition of the plcnt,*ee vould i
< ,, -I i* i l t
ak..bereportingthoseconditionstotheNRC. 13 Q And that is promptly, or irredictely, er are you
;d b saying that it would be done within 24 hettra? '
4 4 . 8f j gi A It would be done within the 24 hours. But it is ,
! p- '
12 !! difficult to put an e:cact time fra=e on it beccuse thare are
.1 l
13' : a lot-of communications involved and a lot of acticus to take.
! L g; And I think, as Mr. Dodds point out, with the fact that there 15 is presently a resident inspector, if he were onsite, he would a
16 be right at the scene and involved. He lives naarby. He l
;7 ' might feel it if~h~e7ere at home.
}
;g But these kinds of notifications would be made l !
. l gg within the first few hours after the occurrenco. l 4
t- [
, .;c Q Mr. Broshi, in response to CEC Interrogate:y ,
)
p i Number 6 --., g ll ' 2 p, .
. CHAIPJIAN MILLER: Pardon es just a =cr.cnt. i
, d
- 0 I recogni::a the reasonabisness, as the vitnceses
..r .
in y q see it, of this immeidate raspense but if events of a seismic o v- !
.' ' nature occurred'to the point where action was taking placc in OL .,,. .
i
- E
~ . _ . _ _ _ _ . ._. _
Ja. , - . . . %m 4 -.w e.. -.w. - . ~ . **.,y -
. 3 .
1875[ eb7 1[ the interests of safety and it was shut down, while that may , l' 2 take some time, up to 24 hours, is there any reason wny l 3 people wouldn't stund on formalities or toch spcca or any- !, I 4i thing else but would send semebcdy to ccmmunice.to irn dittely 'I
;f
} l i
. 3 {! with NRC7 i i I Gi I'm not speaking now about the other ::.finaments i,
.s 7 of your period within 24 hours but is there any reason why
- O there could not be prompt, ir.mediato notificaticn to NEC if i an event occurs which is resulting in a chutdctm, a cold 3l .
10 *. shutdown, the OBE magnicude? 1; I realize information would ha gatherad, that you
, I
- 2 { would be making more formal reports, whether oral or written, 13 but what I'm inquiring about initially, 'is there any 'on
;4 in the world why an immediate notification te Unc could not 15 be ma'de?
je WITNESS WITHERS: No. CHAIRMAN MILLER: Would it be .nade? 17 lI. 13 WITNESS WITHERS: Yes.
=
19 i I would'like to qualify that. : v I.
,, go CHAIRMAN MILLER: Very well. l
- i
.m. .
l; WITNESS WITHERS: That would depend scz.e: hat on the l
.,, jl time of day that the event occurred. New on a back shift you . : .
I g just have the operating crew, and their 1:mr.ediato cencarn 3l would be handling the situation at the plant. l [ \ ~' 27 CHAIRMAN. MILLER: Yes, I understand that. .s w l i
.I
_ _sm - - _. _ _ _- _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ - _
. . :., c . . ..... . . . . := -- ==. -
. :, =__ -
I i
- -0 '
i
! , 1 1 1876 C
- eb8 -1 WITNESS WITHERS: And that could tie up their en-
- l. 2 tire resources for'some period of time, less than an hour,
! 'S '
let's say. .
;w .
4 ,1 CisAIRMAM MILLER; All right. ' r [ a 5{ WITNESS WITHZRS: Then their concern would be with 1 1 6 I. v.otifying management, mysalf or the essistant superintendent, ; 1 f,s 7 of the conditions, and identifying the need for any assistance !' ' l L'
=
54 x things of that nature. . l
- = . _ . ._ _ _ ___ _ __
c My response then would be to take whatavar action
. a il 2
;g p vas necessary to provide them the help and sup_ ort the .
0 (
;j needed,'to notify my management and additienal peopla en my i
}
ig II staff who are needed to be involved in thic. '
..nd in en event
,e *
[) v 12 u like that why there would be, you know, delegation of respon-14 i; sibilities for communicating so that one person is not doing l 15 it all in series. 16 But'in this first hour or two period when all those 1 g ::cmmunications were taking place, why .the NRC wculd he in-la cluded in those notifications. [
<w 19 CHAIRMAN. MILLER: Well, how high an order of ,
, i 20 priority-- I know you're busy, I know many things are boing l
~ 1 ,
hl done. I clso know the plant is being shut do'.>rn, cnd I want ! i r n ,;j to know'that NRC's notification, which I don't suppose takes ; 1
,,3 j that long by telegram or telephone or scmathing, 7:n'.3 ba
, +
e- ,, 4 I high enough on the list that it would not ha traiting whilo j m t. n; things were done. x - . l!
'h i i.
_l
-y y .-- - ~ -p .- - - - --
g -%-
. - - . . . - -. ~ .. . - . - . . - - . . . . . . . . . -- . . . - ~ . . _ . . . . . .
1877 ! f,- , eb9 1 WITNESS WITHERS: No, it would not. That report' I s - { . ! A 2; would be made, either by ma or the assistant superintendent, ! , i I 3 in the same time frama that we would be notifying corporate j . 3 4! nanagement of that situation. + h )
;5 f, CHAIR:'AN MILLER:
. Very well, the came tics by you e ,
;i G;
. >I or your equivalent in order of ccmmand which ic high in the )i
'*' 3 l 7 order of priority of notification.
t
'* WITNESS WITHERS: That's correct.
C l j g
. . ~ . i CHAIRMAN MILLER: I think we'll take our rocess f
3 lr now. i i lo i 11 (Recess.) { t i 2b 12 ' i ( fn \ 9e I
~ 1 14 i i
l 16 l i 1 17 18 v .
$b g .
. ID , l l
i 21 ;,. , t
.y t
N n ;; >.
,.~'*
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- f. f i i li
'-+ - +-
. _ . _ _ . . . . . _ . . - _ . - . . . . . . . , . . -, m._ .
c i 1 l
; i 1878 '
1 rLM' .f 2C agbl- CHAIRMAN MILLER: iIr. Kafoury, you may proceed. f l '
,. 6
.; & q CG g MRi KAFOURY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
c .
- 1
~ '
i
- i s
BY MR. KAFOURY: '
,, s ;
l i E d Q I'm 100hing at"Licensac's 2.:. pen:n w C ::alidatcy 4 [ c I , Intervanors' Interrogatories," servad on August 19. 1 Page Four, Interrogatory Eight.- The quanticn 3.5: t . I j " Provide a summary of ths equipment 3 _ . _ . which_ia housed in the_ control buildinn whic.1 1 s ' g
- O is safety-related. Idantify any equipment which '
l I
- j. '3.- ;
is related to safe shutdown of Trojan during 035 i
'I' and SSE."
i i so .
"i I hava a nut.or of questicas abcut your ansuer
'I
) 2 there.
. V. - l ',f Who would like to do that? Is that within a . , t
- 4 i 15 .
particular area of one of you? I t l IG A (Witness Broehle) Well, what's your question? i . . 17 0 Wall first of all, it has two 125 vcit UC !
- IG batteries and associated equipment.
w [ [ , 10 What is the function of those batterics and m . +. 20 l associated eqiupment in the ordinary ,cou se of trorh, that is, i 21 in the absence of an emergency? 4 ,
- 2 A To provide the DC power for control purpcm.s. :
, CI t 0 What do you mcz.n, " control purpassc?"
1 .
.\
/ ,
24 A The contros systarts use the DC powcr to operata .. \.x / 25 the relays.and devices that signal the equipment to turn
]
96. s . , s h .. .+ - . ~ ~ , . . . . . . . . .w.
~ ~ , - ...-.n - n.s . . . . . . ~ -. . - . . . -
. - , . - .- cr ,
_. _ ~ . _ . _ _ _ . _ . _ _ _ _ _ __ _ ___ _ ,._ P i
!! 1879
( . i . 9 .," agb2
! l
}
on, turn off. This is the control power. 2 . Q In the basic control power, the plent is not
-c 3 t 1
j - attached to outside electrical souces but is battery povered i .; !. from inside the plant?
, :i. < 3" d A Uc11 in the cance it's conncatet. to cwesida it G i: ;*. 5 sources, the batterico have to be rachanrad and'you have '.
t . t l 7l chargers on the batteries. If you lose outside pcuer, ths I. l.
~ ~ ~ ~
hI . l j battery is~there and~available., independent cf any power 4 0 i' Source. 10 i; Q Are they constantly being recharged 3 roc outaide? e
'. j;.
y, A Yes. ; e '. ; l
] [a Q How long uould they -- how long could they :ccap ;
o l' il i you, going if you were cut off from the outsida? 14 h* ,r A I don't recall the e::act tima, but it's idantifiedl- 1
'5 in the SAR. It's quite a langthy tima.
IO
, Q Uow long would they need to operata in orc'.ar to I7 0 assist with shutdown, if that were to become naccasr.ry due
, h
[ '8 h to an emergency? 1 e
,9 5
J A Just during the period required to actuate things, P
'O to maintain them, the supply is much longer than tas shutdown
'I pericd required.
22 ; u cir. Frewing, did you want to say scri.ething?
-, I' 5
A (Hitnacs Fra. zing) !c.
. ., fj "h'i l Q And what equipment would these batteries maha 23!! .i work during an emergency shutdown, including an OEE shutdoun
'..:ai i I
~ - - -
.= .
; -..x . : - = - - - - - = --.----------===. =--...-._..
3 .
' 1880 FP 3 !.j^ agb3 -
i or an SSE shutdown? There's isn't a.ny difference is there? ,[ 2! 4 [ A (Witness Broehle) No, it's the same equipment.
- 3 l[ Q What would the battaries do? What would they maka.' .
i
- . U '
work that could not ba worked uithout ther.?
~0 A That couldn't be vorhad without tham?
2 f
. d }a You'd have to manually. operate soms valvec which, ;
' y ,( l
. as an example, these provide the algnal to the pilot relay {
Cf on the valva. . 8 1' i Q Are tha valves inside the turbino buildin<g? j 11 1
'O If i q A Like the valves associated with t;ha anniliary j q f I as v
d feedpump operation. j i
"~ if Q Witere is that locatsd?
4 p~ ? A It's located in the turbine building. .
]
"3 l{ Q What would it be helpful for, what would the
- 4 batteries be helpful for during shutdown, if not escential?
I
~. :
- A They would cartainly assist in the emergency
;{
l n, i l ~' ' j shutdown nature - l ;l - . ,, l - [ J Q I'm sorry, emargency shutdown? -- What was the f t i <.
". b,'last word?
i
, j
'O h; A I said the nature of the e,argency shutdown, how !
'I you vould control it. It would be much msre difficult .
9 ro i.
. without the battary, w l.a S '> 0 Uhat could get out of centrol?
IAh A It isn't a matter of getting out of centrol, . [ l. V M it's being able to actuate your devices autor.z.tically. , p .
!i Q: ,
y .~-,rv -p ,w - . ,,m. ,_%, ,
-awa--.,_- - - - . . . - - a-
't i
I 1881 > J 1 i
} agb4 Getting them started, you mean, would be a lot
, j Q g ,
more difficult without the batterica? A That's correct.
,e.
" {i Q liumbar 3 is onc tra.in of 4150-V switch 3:ar. '
i !
"t !
?I What is that?
i
- S I i
.: A That's the switchgcar for the emergency cafe .
t i snutdown equipment. That is one train. There is another i
's trainr-a duplicate of it, in the emergency switchgear room 9
ovdr the dinal generator room which is completely independent! IO ' t of the control building. f I ! U Q And if there wera to be soccons hans of very ,; 12j modest mechanical sophistication, hcw would ycu ::: plain T 13 I to them what that is? What it does? I4 A These are the davicas, the switchgcar that turns.
~l 15 the motors on and off. They're the main connection ctation.
10 You have a motor and you have an slectrical 17 4. supply, and there has to be a switch to connect thct motor IB to the electrical supply to make it run. This switchgear IS ' room contrains those devices. J Q And what is one train?
- ll.
s. 21 li A No have a radundant system. One train -- w2're li '. F2 ' saying that one group of switchgear ic in that rocm. 172 j
-3 have another train, another group of switchra.: Jer p ! ,ly IA 'I duplicate systems'that are located remote Ercm the con rci l l 1 V E building. !
i l
)
e . 1882 , f '. i. P~x 1 [: '5 ) agb5- 1 Q Where? ' M, i
. n.
.n.
*I A This is in the au:tiliary switchgear room over
- r
- i .
- ~
J the diesel generacor room. It's in the turbino building, A 't i in a Class 1 structura. n I. w q
- _t
;i Q And do thess two cwitchgsars -- En cna c.fitc.wcar f ;i ;
. ; would be in operaticn when the picnt eaa in operation and i 2; .
l 1 the other would be held in reserve, or would they bot:h only - '!* 8h !
!' cotoe into play, or either of them cerc.o into play-if- there j -- -
0 '
\
t were a problem? i l 10 ' A A11'of the emergency systeme requiref. Scr safa i i
- 1 ly shutdown t
are redundant. That is to say that ue hrvn two ' N i' !! l [' systems completely separe.tc. Their pcwar sources -- ano i l
,O i 1.3 (',,
? ,
., power source is located in the control building and the L to 14 h power source'for the other train is locatad in the turbina
, , , [ (
l 15 il building. It is fully duplicated. M le [ DR. MC COLLOM: Let me ask a question, please. ii 'l' MP.. KAFOURY: Please. i
.- . ;p
!B il
. DR. MC COLLOM: Can any of the equipmant that is
{i
! 19 !! l
. ' , connected to these be operated from either placc ct any i
. i, 1 . s.
.. ;. time? . !
.t .
Of I
"* l MITUESS DROEHLl:: Ho. 1 M
i 1
"y -
DR. MC COLLOM: What, then, is the ratscn for 1 l
.t
) t'ut?
I
-i
.3, WITICSS BROEHLE: There's a pump to perfor.v.soto t
"]
.a
;) safaty functicn. It has its switchgear located in the ccatro.
{. - Ie
. r,' f. .
.. i
. ;.z------- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
.] 1883 -
11 I I- agb6 r building. , y,. o
, 3 You have a second pump which performs er.actly -
3 . the sama function. Its switchgear wculd be located in the p turbine building.
. 5' DR. :IC COLLCM: So you can parfc:.a @. d ata G, .
4, function from either one to accomplish tha sano re.sult? l { 7i WITNESS BROE1!LE: That's correct. G .
' .L
~ . . . , _
BY Ma.1GSOURY: _ _p _ 9 I j Q But you couldn't. use one switchges.r interchangaably. 10 1 I l with either ptuap ? ! 11 \ l A (Witness Broehl2) lio . 1
~ ." , j. Q Dut one pung, if working prcperly, would bo I3 enough to prevent a meltdown in an emergency, is that 14 correct? .
1 A That's the basis of it. 16 Q Dack to the batteries, Number Eight, for just one monant.
. 'o.
~ .. . W B
You're saying that enough we.ter could ba pi.'.mped IO
, in manually through the turbine building witaout tne use
. . O of those batteries to prevent a meltdown, assuming the 21 integrity of the turbine building, right?
*h
" j, A We belicvo that tha auxiliary feedpt=p equipment f._ ;
,,}.
could be sacrt:d and eparated manutlly fr:n on".sids that control rocm without tha batteries. l / ,K / ! s D D 5 j Q So you would not nead any battaries at all, you're i
. r 1
.i g .
.= a: . .- u . . <:- n. -. :
^
_ - . - . - - . . . - - . - '\ 2 a , , 1
'i' - i 4 1884 i ! l : 1 ;i c j '
l- l
/ j '
4 5 t (/ 4 ,' agb .7 2! f 'saying, necessarily?
! ! A Not necessarily. I say it is uith considerable l y b 3 3
difficulty but it could be done. {'
]{t ;
i 0 Q Uhat would ha tha difficulty? ! 3
, 3. jl operating the cylit+cs manually.
A r
.o 4
- 59
,, 'li Q You maan, you would need large nuacica or clavarnass)
" h,; or what would be the difficulty?
i .t . - y L __ _ 4 A Cleverness, I would say. Tec.Inical kncwledge of-q - .'; .s i where they are, how to do it. ) 3! . .. 46
~ y r 0 Keep talking. j t
ss
'.i i A Pardon? .
.C :
t"') i, < 0 What kind of technical kncwledge would be r2quiradif
.l' 2 4e g s '"
i who has that technical knowledge? -
- . i
- < l ,
"a i- A The plant operators. j
]. 'r
- - i5 j' p Q Ilow many of them are there?
I'# y ' $ '- L A You can talk to tir. Withers about that. l.
.'.. .., y 1! D A (Witness Withars) An operating crcw censists b *. m 'ii!
, of a minimum of fiva people. ,
[;.., 9 I O The whole plant can be run ,with five people? .
- on i,' !
j' *
]p A Yes. . ,
i m'" h, Q And sometimes is? u 3n
':i A Yes.
- C
'E ' That's not counting security peop12? ' O o
't O eR ' h
- A That is only plant operators.
> t-- j-i V end2C U !I , i .d
'f 3
Y. L g+..-- -..a. , .m 4 .s , e m w .- . m, ,
l I 1835 ;
},,
(s ( 2D tB/mpb1 [', . Q Eo there is a minimum of five plant operators at l
^
[ . l al. the plant when.it is in operation, 24 hours a day, correct? , i I l A That is correct. . 3h 3.140 O. And all of those are traind. in getting tho l
' ' a' . 1
.. y : 4
- O 3 nuxiliary pump to work regardless of the status of Go batter ;
0 i
.},less' correct? .
j n 7 . ) A That is not normal procedure to operate the 1 .
.; i l 2 f Auxiliary feed pumps without_that Source of power. These .
4 9 .- operators are familiar with the equipment and could operate i M i equipment or develop schemes to operate aquipment in the I 1 .
.s f event there was an abnormal condition.
But that battery. 11 , I
*/ power supply is an integral part of the plant equipment and j i
s 3 would normally be expected to function. I W ', O You say that they could develop schemes in the 1 1
}}
15 I/ absence of the batteries or the dysfunction of the batterie= . L l
.6 j. in an emergency situation to get the auxiliary pump in the -
[ l maltdcun.
;' l turbine building going to prevent a } ;
i.. ,
% d How do you know that they could develop schemes . :- ' l 19 h and what do you mean by "could"?
P. . O D,. A. This equipment could be coerated without the d 11 :5 DC power supply. That would be an abnormal wa'y of operation . 5 y
- ". ?! and would require ingenuity on the part of the eparator. i
.i i c{ In other words,. there are not detailed precadures 24 ! for what you do without this, or without that, er if scmahhing .[ !
i
% .i els.e doesn't work. The procedures in the plant manual are !.
\q .
J
- h. - . -- ..
,.4 . . : .a. s
< ' ' . . -~-%"
;a. "
%uTL:4 ;
~~
, . !! 1886 l 1
i 'C] ~~ mpb2 1 ba, sed on having the required equipment in operation. Andthere! 2 are not additional procedures for when required equipment ; i 3; is not available. . - 1,
- 4. Thora are c: tion Otat?.mants of what yo" :.r" to
' il j !.2 fj do without that equipment to keep the plant st01. f C
G ii Q But they don't tell you how to 'do it?
*. t
/; A Normally such a procedure would indicate that in s
s , , Ih, some plant conditions a surveillance or other action would._ i 3 - _ i 4 0 ', indicate that seme required equipment was not'cperable, and ] , ! to ,, then you have an action state. cent that tells you within a 4 a 4
;; Il; prescribed period of time you have to put the plant in sens ,
a es 4.2l; condition. But it's not based on the assumption that when i ( ) 73 some problem develops that you have less than the required
- .; h.Iamount of equipment to handle the problem.
5 The plant was designed with redundant trains, ! 3 -l
,e j;!, with redundant equipment, as Mr. Broehl has described, and ;
t
,; q the action to be taken in the event of an smergency is based ;
1
;; j, on the minimum amount ,of design equipment being available, j
3 i . .
- , n. i Q Whers are the redundant batteries?
l d- , i
. noq A They .are in t'fo battery rooms. '
;;; } Q Where are.they? !
.i n.. t,li A . de've got batteries in the control building tad ,
, al e ? in the turbine building. e y} . Q' And the' turbine building is a cctsgory tro y jj structurs?! ,
-U -
.i o
.sw%
me +w..,e.a, e-We-e q-
= -- :.= : - a =.. .=--..: ,= : .= 2: .-. . =: - a .. .. . - = -
u l 1887 t -(s D; mpb 3 If i A The frame of the building is category one.
^ 2I O ifnat's a category two structure within it?
I I t f 3' A I would like to refer that question to !!r. h. I i *i Christ 2nctn 3
-> i
.. 3 ;:
A (tfitncus Christancen) The '" '*'-' '-"ilf.ir.g is a 4 3 !. category two structura, the fra:r.c of it is. It has been
+
}
- l. i t
7 '. checked out or designed to be abla to withstand an SS2. j 8i The rooms that Mr. Withers has been describing
. _ . ~ _ _ .._,. _ .__ _p 9 ' that are within the turbine building are category one huildings.
!O P Q Is there a particular rearon -- Wall, strika that.i
. t l' , !
I' ,
.Do you acknowledge that it is pocrib'.a that there ; .
C ,[ could come a time uhen it would hs vital for scrt. cons.t: *<nc' r 1 s e) ..I , how to use their cleverness to get the au::ilic2:y feedpunrps v ' 4 going without functioning batteries? Th:t's sc=cthing that ; 15 l could happen, isn't it? i
- s. ;
I
,3 A (Witness Withers) I don't think that's a raal
,1 f! '
,; o plausible typa of a scenario. i H
i
,g ;I,i Q It could happen?
- l G
3 I: s. My question is: '
... 'I ,
. 20 ,
. Isn'.t it worth - we're tal'cing about the last d .
- n y line of defense here, aren't we, and isn't it worth having a i.
i .
,u (. procedure that depends upon cor.athing grantar ths.a, sensthing 0
- .;; j more substantial th m inspiration?
7 = '; A You have assu:nsd a failure er a less c2 tme aatter- ' O
~.(O w
}.i les because of soms event?
j a h: s-
. - -...-. - .. .. . . . . . . . - - , . . . . . - . . ~. --
l . I.i j
,i 1888 ,
t O mpb4; ~ ij Q Yes. And I've been told that the pump that could , s . .. ' i C i! save the plant in an energency, in the absence of the batteries, n '; ' -O , 3 y can be operated but only by schemes which would be devaloped at'. J '
< hho tima by psopla en the 3:2rs the uculd null e m: e nir ros-d .
; J .'j; ponso end think chout it and tl.uy would hr~ra no guidelines, .
. ir .
bhev . would have no specific directions as te what to do in .
. 3. .
- 7 (t those circur. stances.
il !
?
i.
~
Am I correct in all that I'vo anid? I:
,7 i 0i o A (Witness Broshi) I think actu21'.y ifaab jck ~ ~
4
!L ! have dona is carried the scenario bsycnd uhat un cencider i
e. i a credible. - li
, *:: We have a design basic for the picnt, 2nd thr.t ,
< /g.' N l ,t2 i{ design' basis is such that wa feel we have precluded this h $
- V
.4 ij possibility from a practical standpoint of having lost both
'l J.
l Wo do not consider this a credible event I q.. i,! of the batteries. 4 4 This is beycnd the criteria. {
,j L from a design basis standpoint. ,
4 . _ __ . ~ _ 4 }, gy ,, Q Well, there is a scenario uhich could be davised i
'. ,3 I wherein this came to be your last 'line of defense to save the !
i
q it plant, isn't that true?
f 4 - 4 A There are nany scenarios that can be dsveicpad. i
),0 I s
~
el g
! You have to establish cre6.ibility for them. . 4 C.c: 't hsiin '
i 4 y i, . ..6 h for incredible ovents.
- 7. , . l( :C.. EEms: !2. Chairan, I woul1 cbject to I':res
/ g4 0 questioning along this lins unless the--
O I Q' aq om. nrouar: I will ach no further qu2sti:nz ".1 cat il af If l!. - . . - - ...._ - _ . _ _ . . ... au==ce --.er ,*'.hf. d-e.ps m = gam m-e
. , - . ~ . . . . -
44 . . , , , w, g
- 9
_ . . . ._ :.__. . _2.; -_ -----.-._-----._- - - - _ 1
)
'i ;
6 1889 : a r N mpb5 1f this line, f a h) i 2 DR. MC COLLOM: I would like to, then. ' s e 'i
' ~
3 if bm. BANKS: Okay. l-
.1 1 t
- i.' All I ims going to say 12 L . Chairm .n, ' int I [
!! I i U think as long oc the proceduras that they are talking about j
, 9F arewithintheoriginallicensecritoriathatwamayhegettind'
. 1 4 7[ beyond the issues in this particular hearing. That's all I f I $
U' was concerned about. - - .
~ . : _-- .. l 0: DR.'5d~COLLOM: I just want clarification.
I think, Mr. Withers, you've ancuerad this, but : 10} I would like to kncus to Do the operatcrs kncu that the e. : ilia:y feed purp:.
- r. -
f > 13 ti for instance, as an example, will cool the reactor in a shut-4 t s l 14 ' down situation? ; i ! l
~
15 WITNESS WITIERS: Yes, they do. , DR. MC COLLOM: Do they know all of the valves I
' 3 d, -
and controls, including pumps, necessary to allow this to ha l f t . accomplished and where they're locatsd? !
>i WIT!ESS WITIERS:
'les, they do. They knew all i, i '
4 l
- ?,0 t the valves that would have to be opened to f03d water to the
'] steam generators with an auxiliary feed pump. Thay kncu the h..
;t h'l valves that would have to be operated to provids cooling
);
h
;; ,; vater to that nuniliary fasdwater p'.rz.7, and thy %ncv t'u ei I
' y'.1 valves that have to be operated to provide staan if ycu are w t t] ; .;, feeding stanm to the steam driven auxiliary feedwater pump.
9
.I e
P
* ?*w= .4- eew : m - .
__ _ . _ _ _ _ , _ _ m_
t
- d. .s 1890 t
g .
- s. >
\
F ' l
; _'T mpb6 1 And they know the lineups that would be required to operate 2L the diesel engine that driven the second au::iliary feedwater ;
4 ,.- 3 !, ptmp. :.
- L P.. :-:C CC1I C H: nnd f.c hn'; kn - hc:*~ 30 ::c rs.t7 i 4
l 1.tanually any of the cenyonants of the syctam thc.t can ba 1 3 d operated manually? ! l .- . :t '
- t. l 7! (
UITNESS. WITHERS: Yos, they do. - { l s i i DR. MC COLLO!!: Thank you. 1 O /l . - _ . _ _.4, - 1 DY MR. KA?OUR'l: t t - it; ( Q If I may just follow up en that:
}'
' ' ,U Uhat, then, is tha area in which thay need to
'l
- 7. davelep the schenes? 3 i
Ws, aD) / c .1 U A (Witness Withers) I believe that your question j j 14 i And my rasponse was that i a b. previously referred to precedu ca.
. \,
;i l there are not developed- the writton formal procedures to i d
, :3 L cover every contingency that can devolep. I L
,; .i The procedures tell you how to line up and operate 1
3
, t i . 2 ,. a piece of equiptant, assuming that normal plant situr.tions l
. .i . :
;; ;i exist. In the training of the operators they learn tha de- i p ;
- j. . 3 [{ tails of those systems, the components, the valvas tha lina- !
, a
.. :. 1, ups that are required. And in the event when this ac.uip= ant 4 c ,, y is actuated they do not get the expected reculta, they knew
- l g; ,
the sequence of events that is requirzd, they kncu th t for
,u i this equipmant to operate as designed, and it uculd ha ossen-7 m
. .gf -
* "g ,
tiallv - a trouble-shooting -crocess to check the lineup, valva 9 0 1 '- i
- .( . - .
i'ea* -. *ugue$st ge. 're--e.nw4' -
**u*N ed .y- adhi -
,a
1891
. i p3 mpb7 ! .
by valve, to check the signals to the equipment so that they l ( l . I i I <% 2 ,}' would resolve thesa problems or obstacles to operation and i s 4 .- . '. 3 ',i wonid be able to line it'up and manually cperate it. .. 4d ' But you could write just almost an infini'r-1't 5 't. umber of proceduras to cover cvsry
, kind of a prc':12:.. .he.t s ,
'l .
! G I' you co.uld have that might, from scze - that anybef." cou.'.d
. i, .
i 7' think of that would impact the, operation of the.t equignant. a l l -
'd () And we have to depend' en the operators being able to tre ble- )
i __q _._ _ _ _ m. . _ i o "-shoot and diagnose problems when you get beyond what wa 20n -
- 0 '- sider the credible design basis, i ti 3nd 2D <
i' p i
- 3 i ,
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- r$% M NW-W' "dN'$D She:
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- h. 1392 .
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.- T 2e abi 1 Q If I could just sum this up, and then I would like 2I to move on: (
! l 3i In other words in that circumstance where the b h i
#~ .
h.. battaries cannet be operated ard the ar;: ilia
- y ;;um a .ra e U/ i-,
required to save the plant, the possibla veristions in that
- s 3[ scanario just laid out are so . numerous and comple::.that ona 7 cannot readily devise regulations to govern conduct in that 0 .. _ circumstance ..andlou just simply _haya to rely on the nerves _._ j
- f. .
i 0 ;l and the wits of the people on the scene?' Correct? i i c7 10; }I A I think you do depend on trained operators and '
- l. i procedures in order to operato the plant. }
11 )I I il f l. Ucw thera is a point you can gat to where every- .! I \
'3 thing is not contained in the procedure and you dapend on I s
I 14 h t; the operator's know1' edge of the system and his ability to : I 15 diagnose problems and do effective trouble-chooting in order 16 to handle that situation. i 17 In'the situation you have cited you havs focused j 15 I on the DC power supply. Now that may or may net be the only f 19j ~ problem you had at a given time, and I guess in developing
- o. [ -
1 your scenario you assumed that's the only problem. Thore ; m il' f
- Et { could be other eroblems if you have assumad that is tha result '
I 7 of a seismic event. , 23 ] ,But it would require a knefledga cf in Tp tam and
~ 1
/' an evaluation of the condition that existed,
'f 24 el : ( 3 '., I DR. PAXTON: Mr. Withers, is it true that ell of e ' I
- , . _ , ._ -_ ";a.;; . - . - , _ . - -7=:/'7r~"-~ _
. . - - . . ~
~
- ....__.. i____ ;
.__.~ . _ . . -~ L. _- l 1893
) ab2 3 these operators will have passed examinations by NRC personnel?
'^
2 WITNESS WITHERS: No, that is not the case. The ! t C 3 licanse requires a certain nu.nber of the plant operators to 6 l 4 have NRC licenses. Not all five operators wculd be licensed. l , 3 We generally have a number of' licenses in addition 6}! to the minimum requirement, and essentially have all our peopic 4 7 working on the' licensing program. ! l
, O1 Before they are licensed th'ey are qualifica as a e t !' s- what we call auxiliary operators, and it is during this ,
i ' period that they become familiar with the various syntams
+
10 I 11 ) , and the operating procedures before they get to tha point of a' l 12 going for an NRC c: tam. They may start out as an au::iliary In operator in the turbine building and they would then learn --
'a become familiar with and qualified to operate all the systems
!5 in that building.
l 16 So not all would have NRC licensas. { l ' 1 17 DR. PAXTON: But what would the minimum number be f i I l tg who would be licensed? .
, t 4
1g' WITNESS WITHERS: There's a requirement-- We ' 6 , i 20 generally have three licenses on shif t at all times. i 21 DR. PAXTON: And is it true that in the e:tamination 22 for these licenses, considerable attention is paid to emer-
;; gency situations su::h cs has been discussed hare?
( y WITNESS WITHERS: Yes, it is, verifying that opera- .p : ( g tors understand the inner workings of the systans, that they
.,-wre - m-y- sw 4m me =. o e is -*-*
_z . .. .x- - a h i
./I 1894 i o
t l l[
.s ab3 '.[ i know locations of key equipment and things of that type. l l' 2f The NRC examiner spends about an eight-hour shift 3
<m 3: with them, walking through the plant, asking them what th'at ,
!. i
- 49 lo, what.they would do if that indicated somo abnormal value, !
~
j 2 h where they would go to manually operate thic valve if it
. .il 5j failed to operate, and things of that nature.
7 DR. PAXTON: Thank you. }
?
6 BY MR. KAFOURY: . e 9 0 Part C is in three sections. The first is *
. 1
[ :of engineered safeguard 3' actuation system. ifact is that? ! 11 A (Mitness Frawing) That's equipment Uhich Octuates 1 i ; t ?. ' valves and pumps nececsary for safe shutdown of the plant. ; C
- g j( ) 13 i
{ O And that deponds on the batteries for normal i
}
,v i, g functioning, dcean't it? . i l
;5 A It depends on either AC power, which is supplied 16 from offsite, or from the emergency diesel generators onsite, n .
17 1 or from the batteries. j l f
. 18 0 Does it have separato hookups for the batteries and ;
19 the AC offsite power?
?. ;
, A Some of the equipment is operated frem AC pcNer '
20l l ,; l and some of it is operated from DC pcwer. n' O And the DC is all'bEttery and the AC is all cut- , ni side? IIi 7' A outside, or from the emergency oncite diesel Cs yj; d;l 6,
,3 1 generators. You recall that we have the capability to cperate L .
1: 4
~
i . . . . . . _ . . . . . .. - - - - .- ----
- . . . . ... _.. . - - - . - . -a- --.- - - . . . -.--
l l l I j 1895,li i eb4 1 the plant' independent of offsite power. 2' Q And independent of the batteries? l l (^ 3 A In an extreme situation, yes. !- l
'3 ' l Q' Uow the actuation systam is c0mpc32d of triggers, i s
3' l
*. water and rodc. Is that correct? -- safety rods to be em-
- l) 3 2
' . bedded into the nuclear material?
4' 7 A The equipment you're describing refers to all E ]. thry.e numbered items in PGE's response to Consolidated Inter- I 5; venors' Interrogatory Numbar 8. You are describing all of l-t 10 t'te equipment necessary to shut dcwn the plant, all of the I I 1
't electrical signals, if you will.
i l 1
)
!2 : Q Part C, Numbers 1, 2 and 3, are all the automatic
?
13 safety systems, you are saying, or just C, Number l? Ds I'm l 1.'. sorry, j . t
'5 A They are the control and instrumentstion systems. I i
16 Q Which is "they," 1, 2 and 3? 17 A Yes. That's identified in the sentence preceding , i
;a i 1, 2 and 3.
'9 Q What distinguishes the engineered safeguards' 20 actuation systems from the others? Ebatisitsuniquacharac-21 teristic?
i C A There are three items listed. The engineerad 23 j safeguards' actuation systam, the nuclear instrub. ntuien j ( ?I ' ' system, and the solid state protection systen.
~ . !
g 15 . The engineered safeguards' actuation system, as I j l
- i. i 1
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. . . _ . . . - . .-.. --. ~.-
. . . . , _ _ _ _ . ~ _ _ _ . . .
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. - - :-, . _ , + . . - - , . , , _ . , ,,w._ .,m, .a
y . _ _ _. _ __ -_._. i t . i i 1896.i j]s eb5 stated previously, are electrical switches and so forth which 1l , 2 actuato pumps and valves necessary for cafe shutdown of the ' t -
- p. 3' plant.
i . , 4 ;3 The nuclear instrumentation cyctem consicts of . 1 4 i 5 ij mee/uring devices and signal processing drricts which measure l
. 't j Sd thi neutron flu:: in the reactor core and signal breckcrs to 4 ) i
.~. 7l oyan to cause the control reds to drcp if scme abnormal I, I
) ;
- ,- a situation develops. i,
. - _ - . _ _ _ _ ~ . . . - _ _. _ . . _ . . .
o ,, The solid state protection system measures other ' l' to primary coolant parameters, temperatura, pressure and things n .
)t 0 like that, and if they get out of ncrmal bounds, signals the
' l 12 o plant to shut down. I I I 13 Q Does the plant automatically shut down upon that . D ' 14 f, event?
;) A Yes, t
- e a .
3 Q Then numbers 2 and 3 gather information; right? ' s 37 You have sensory devices -- -
;g A Yes. !
4 i 19 Q -- for riumbers 2 and 3. i L. [ gg And they are both attached 'to the automatic shut-1
.. . ' down system which consists of both pumps and rods. !
s t <
=. i A They are connected primarily to the shuticun system i 1
+
for the rods, to cause immediate shutdown of the plcnt. . l'
, ', y . j. In addition, they start actuation of equipment i
\.
.- l which is' the engineered safeguards' actuation systen that tells!.
l.i E !. U. . .. w r.-$',7' f == w k e *qOe .ur 4me.+ - 4 eJa.gM*e rem.amd,s.au.a.- Gre.ee=, e be m'.mp s a e n-. . e-- .y- - e-, p- e-
- : . ;-.: .- r. - .= -
r 1897 l i I 4 ebG 1 certain pumps and valves to operate. I I t^)[3p> 2
- 1
-Q Okay.
r' 3 So 2 or 3, if triggered, cause the rods to sink }, l I> into the nuclear material and, at the same time they bring ! i 5 Number 1 into play which starts the water pump. I e G: A Yes. 4 I
*I i
Q And Number 1 is simply an instrument of the other ' 1 _ . . _c, j two? i p ', A Yes. 10 Q Is it your understanding that sema nuclear power , 31 ; plants have an automatic sensor system relative to earth- ! 12 ; quakes which has a similar function to the nuclear instru-13 mentation system and the solid state protection system? That ll 14 i is that it will automatically trigger a shutdo>m? L' MR. BANKS: I object to that. It's irrelevant 15 '.i jg f; what other nuclear plants have.
. r
.7 / CHAIRMAN MIIJ2R: We are discussing Trojan.
- 13 Sustained. )
gg - BY MR'. N TOURY: [ go. ,' O The next question is: If the cnswer to the 3, stricken question is Yes, and only you knew, why decan't
}
p-- [ Trojan have such a system? 2:1 MR. BANKS: Same objection. t
, ,4 CHAIRMAN MILLER: Sustnined. j I
g 3Y MR. KAFOURY: ! 4 I lo
--. , - , y- , , - , -
_ . . _ . . _ ._ . . _ - . . ._ m . __ . . . _ . . - - - - - - - P ; ! 1898 j i
.;r y ab7 1 l
0 How would you compare the automatic system frem i j u - , 2l- those which rely on human perception? 1 (m 3l: MR. BANKS: , Same objection. 4! CHAI CtMT HILL 2R: Suctr.ined .
, 3l BY MR. KAFOURY:
3i 0 Whose idea was it not to have an autcmatic earth-4- 1 t 4 7[ quake shutdown system? s
. O MR. 53ANKS : Same objection. .
j
. 9 ,
CHAIPJ1AN MILLER: Sustained. 10 ! Mr. Kafoury, we have new sustained'Jeur objections.*
- i l
11! BY MR. KAFOURY: j , i , j 12 Q Letter D is interconnecting cables. What do they l 13 interconnect, and where are they? 14 A (Witness Frewing) They interconnect the pumps and i i -
;3
- the valves and the control switches and the indicater lights i f
16 listed above.
;7 Thef are located in the control building, the ,
ja auxiliary building, the containment, and those Clacs 1 portions-c! of the turbine buliding which centain the diesel generators . V
- o [ and the auxiliary feedwater pumps.
Q Could you possibly just take a momant and very q; [i . l. roughly, and not to scale and not with great accuracy, but m
= ',
n , show me where the cables go by drawing the buildings en the
;,.4 ; board? '
pg( A I think that would be pretty difficult. I think *
.i I
f' i: . _ . . _ . . - . _ _ . . . . . . ___ _ _
. . . . :-. . , . - - ~~~ - . . ~ ~
, 'j i, - - j
, 1899 ,l i
ab8 ![' y 1 that information or some of it is shown in the FSAR, the . Q , . (5 2 basic design description. ! p 3 Q Are the cables-- Would we see a great webbed f.
'- 4 network if we were to draw them, or ere they bound together l . .
, 5' and only separated witnin buildings and for particular in- l i, = a 5' struments?
d A The duplicate trains of safe shutdown equipment j 7
.i Gi are separated as part of an NRC requirement.
. 7..
4 s' O De they all come in and out 'of the contro1 1inilding '
~
I; to at the same place?
! A Mo.
[ tt 2 ; t [ m; O Is there a duplicate cystem you're saying that ; i 1 ,
) ;3 comes out of 'the control building? I i
14 A No.
; {
l 15 Q Explain to me what the duplicate system is. I'm l i ' 16 sorry I don't anderstand.
].
,7 A You recall that I believe it was Mr. Christensan k-i .,
;3 or Mr. Withers pointed out that ene of the philosophies in l 49 building and operat:ing a nuclear power plant is that there
! . 7,3 is duplicate or redundant safe shutdown equipment. Chat
- . ,3 3 equipment is honestly separate, and the control cablec, the
- ,y, pumps, the valves, everything about that system is separate. !
! l' 7,3 Those cables do all come to the control reem such y than an operator :r.ay operate Train A or Train S or both as 3q he may desire or as they may be available. In that sense they i
, i L i 4 .. .._._ . _ _ . . . __ _ _ . _ _ _ _ _..
- .. .~ . . - - . . -. . . - . . - - . . -
y - w _._._.y . . , _ , , - - -.y s.-.-
._ _. - _. _ _ .__ _ .e__
1900 l r N eb9 1 both come to the control room, but they do not all enter the \ l S 2 control building 4t the. same location. p 3 Q So they have separate wall penetrations? 4: A In many casos, ye:5. l i i 3li 0 But each inct,rument has a sepcrats train which l l 1 l Gf is part of a separate electrical system to which it is trired l
. 1 7 in?'. Is that correct? !
- 8 A Each instrument belongs to either Train A or Train
_ _ _ . ~ .. _ . ._ . g B. Recall that either Train A -- - t i 10 0 You mean the instruments are duplicatsd? ! i 1; A Let me finish. 12
' Recall that either Train A or Train B can, by 1 13 itself, safely shut the plant down.
14 Q Now I'm confused. 15 You have duplication of instruments? 10 ' A Yes. 37 0 So 'ycu have two of every instrument and each in-
, 18 strument is either on Train A or Train B?
19 A That's correct. 20 Q Now if you had a failure of-- ! I I 21 CHAIRMAN MILLER: I don't t link he had finished. t 1
,, WITNESS FREWING: That is correct insofar ac I
g safe.shutdoun aquipment is concerned. i g BY MR. KAFOURY: l 3 Q If you had-- If we postulate a failure to tho
-As4.- -) &W$L %4d S MM% - % emher wp e
- me , 4,,wmy.,,
r.--- - e
. -. . . . - . .. . :--. - - . - . . = - . w .=
i 1901 - 1 1
/" ' .
eblo 1 collection of cables, Train A, they are at some point all l (\ l-2 joined together; is that correct? l
- p. 3 A (Witness Frewing) No, that 10 really not true 4 either because there are many parts of Train A. Thers ?.ra 1
5 a number of pumps; thers are a number of valves. And they l 1 G are not all brought together at one place. But they are in i 1 e 7 proximity, yes, so you can postulate a failure of the cables
. 8 that run Train A, -- ,
9 0 Okay. ~ ~ ~ 1 10 , And if that happena -- ' I 11 A -- and then Train A does not wor?. We rely on 4 12 Train B to safely chut down the plant. 13 Q If a particular instrument within Train A goes on s 14 the fritz and becomes unusable, is Train A-- You know, 15 postulate the worst possible instrument. Is Train A entirely; 16 knocked out or substantially knocked out?
- 17 A I think "substantially" would be the word.
f ., 18 CHAIREN MILLER: You said the " worst possible I 19 instrument." Is thitt what you meant?
- ~
, 20 MR. KAFOURY: Yes.
4 2e 21 22 23 M l0 2s
.. ,. , nn--~ - - - - + - ~.e. ~ -* ~ t
.w. .m+ . . , . .
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, _ _ _ _ - _ _ y ,
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'l ! i 1902 i 2f O 5 WRB/mpb1 1l BY MR. KAFOURY: l l
(,
)7.200 t. i T' 2 l' Q Suppose, again, that a crucial instrument on i l !
p ' train D, say, were at the same tima knocked out. 3 (!! !
-iN IUt. Christon, ycu ars - !
'! i C i; q
A (Uitnoss Christonson) 1;o, I wac just te.1hing. . . . ; -
'I O Assume in addition to the previous postulete that i
s d e 'l '1 a key instrument which is on train'D is also' knocked out, cay j i a $3 by spalling or some unfortunate incident. Could it happen, 3 st then, that you would lose both train A and train B simply by 11 i 8 10 .; losing those two instruments? I i li
'1j
- CHAIRMAN ICLLER: Nho is best qualified to answer
*4 a
C , that question? .! f 12 WITNESS FREWING: The simple answer is that is nois v - g- i a design basis for the plant. We only have two redundant j i 15 'l trains, as opposed to three or four or five or scme other
,3 lll number you might suggest. But we rely on either train A or il:-
,7 train D to safely shut down the plant. '
gl BY MR. KAFOURY:
. I, .
.5 .i 0 So the answer is yesi j 1 .
- I
,' 9 ,
S
, toy A (Witness Broehl) I think you really have to go ;
n !
,3 q beycnd the postulation. We're talking about control rcom ;
F2 equipment of this type. You want to remember that ue have i; -
;.2 il the remota chutdown panels outsida the control room. So for
+. !
j g.: jjemergencyshutdownwedonotralyontheinstrumentationin { q .. 7- w j the control room wholly. l v j i n 4 y . A
-e-. ..+e...>-mmee .are- ,wer o ema.am. , ._. - - .. ..
E_ww; 4*4eiW*w' er g
- NW9E "' 4 e ug.m@pM-
- w h 4% * +'N -
-"S'eeWdia ***-erem- ren h' --**, V up 4 wf .
T + --
.-_=p-***'t_ _ _ _ _ _ _. _ _ _ _ . _
^ 1 ._: .__.- 1 ._ _ .
- - ~
1 --cn uz
- m------ -R p
- 1 1903 p-g mpb2 1 -
0 Tell me'about those panels. 4, 2 A Mr. Withers? .
.g .-
p 3 ) A (Mitness Withers) I would like to go back, if I .. 4 !! could, to clarify. 1 11
)- '
l 5i In your previous qucctions you hcvc r.ade reference 1 A-
' l 0' to 'nstrurents. If some instrument failed or if some instru .
x . mont was damaged. Now I don't know
.a 7 exactly what you mean by
. 3 that term.
g 0 I said the worst possible instrument, the one -- ic ; that instrument on the train which you would least like to 5 1 3 j ! ;l see knocked out of action. cc, d CHAIRIM MILLER: Nell that's the best, isn't it? q i V 13 MR. BANKS: I assume you're also leaving out the A s.) . fact that they might fix it.
. g3 CHAIR!M MILLER: Do you want to rephrase the t .) question, Mr. Kafoury?
ly MR. KAFOURY: Mr. Bank.C has avoided redirect p ewamination all week. I don't want him to have the chance 4 ta to do redirect without having to pay the penalty for it. 20 CHAIRMAN MILLfrR: Well, w}1at is that penalty?
;g[ MR. KAFOURY: The penalty is having to -- the y; penalty is giving us a chance to ask mora questions.
~
23 CHAIRMAN MILLER: Mell, you're asking now, so it g is not a great loss. g, Go ahead and reframe the question. H . f t
. ., . , : c .. . _ , .
. - . , . - m..s.- -w.,._e- ..4.--- -
---e ---- 7
- .w-. .y _ , . wp.., . , _ - , . ,
p . s s a , 1904
- i.
(3 mpb3 i, - Here's a raframed question. Now I wan't'the panel
- D/.m ,
2', i.' to listen to this..
.(* 3 '. Proceed, i I l 3 BY MR. KAFCURY:. I 1 t U 2
,, S 'j Q The reframed question ic: j
~
.4 GI t' Postulating the loss in train A of that Uhich j 1
d 7 you believe to be the most crucial of tha safety-ralated inst:N-
)
3 l mants, I believe I have been told that that would kneck out -- } 3 substantially knock out train A, is that correct? , to n A (Witness Withers) Again, I an unsure whct you { f :
- f. t ! mean by " instruments". Are you talking indicating instruments 71 c1 CHAIR!mN MILLI:R: Let's find out. l 1
n If we're talking about instruments or devices, or y f whatever, what is most critical or what are these which are
'i tg critical to achieving a safe shutdown on train A, let's say.
g3 T Let's find out with a little more specificity what we're talk-
,, p ing about.
,.e WITNESS WITHERS: Well, really it's not my ques-is tion, so I'm not sure what we are talking about.
3 L ,
, 20 t
CHAIRMAN MILLER: Well, your answer would he'in Ocacidor thct I a response to what is that which is most crucial. f - g the question ended there and you are now going. to tell Ire what p3 is most crucial to cafe shutdo1n on let's say trcin A.
- t .
2t; WITNESS WITHERS: Assuming the plant uns oparat- ; fM !'
-( g -
3 ing, some failures cf instrumentation could result in the [ t d t! ' ._ _ . . _ . . _ . _ _ _ _ . . _ _ _ _ . , _. Y .r- = pr*+3 . -dj- s - t yw-- -.s -__
4 , 1905 ' s !, N mpb4 I shutdown of the plant. In other words, an interruption of
\ )
{ 2 power to the rod control system would shut the plant down.
-(* 3 I
CHAIItMAN MILLER: What else? Or is that the worst'. t
'I caso that you wish to considar? j
,1 i i
BY MR. KAFOURY: . a. 3 iIf C} 3 Q That would be a harmless error, right? You"d 4 h I simply -- you would have -- there wouldn't be any safety I,i_ problems as a result of that, would there?. [ ,. [ D A (Witness Withers) No, I wouldn't c::pect any. ! l 1 10 ,l O I'm tal' ting about an emergoney situation as i q :. M might be postulated in a great earthquake. And you have been i l I i i l
.1,j describing the safety-related equipment in the centrol build- )
l l
) '? i ing. And my question is - and you've been describing the Ql ;
role that these various instruments, machines have for enabl-1 ing the plant to shut down safely. ] 15{ I
.5 ji My question is:
i ci - Taking track A and the entire range of devices 1 i I f3) that are attached to train A, which'of these would make more .f .. t. i l
- s : difficult -- most difficult the safe shutdown of the plant if l
\ . <
00 ] it were to become disabled? I l q: i A (Witness Withers) . I think if ycu cre talking ! i :! '
,"2f . now about'a seismic evant that has caused problems in the -
I
;g y control. building such that inst umentatien has bean damaged, 24 , that damaging any portion of that instrumentatien would act
.[
i.
) 3 present a serious problem assuming that you did net also have t
l' i . _ _. _ e>" "
,. . _ , = . . .
.i J
1906 s i.
-l s mpb5 1 i, a' design basis accident. ,
(N[5 5
,. 2 .I, l,
As long as the reactor systems are intact, tha I { i I
.'(~' 3; lack of this instru.gntation -- there is enough additiona.4 ;
- I 1I. instrumentation to nonitor any givan paramotor en tha raricus I d
,, d .'i '
two trains and on various interconnected systems the.t thera ; t l G .k{i :
! 'would not be a problem in controlling the plant on the bicis .
7' of losing instrumentation in the control room or in the contrb1 I. - Sy building.
;l ___t 9h Q I don't think you understand my quastion. -
4 , i t'.- My question is: I
'. ' a;- r The goal ~is to create a cafe-shutdown in this t '
n [a question, cha"' Th2 casumptien ic an emargency, for inctance-j s r
- 3 an earthquake.
l q
) a And you have described that these various y; devices play various roles in assurring safe chutdo;m.
l {
!3 !
My question ist
;e . If there were one instrument that you would least 4 l !
,y' l like to see be hit with a great block of granite and knocked !
i
; o - j- out of commission from the point of view of assurring a safe !
1
; i
- s [ shutdown, what would be that device that you would not want !
. i ,
. ;,c f to see -- that you would least like to see knocked out of f
a: , i commission? ! e l
,_ 3 l, ,
A I think to answer that question I would not:d to ,'
- f. kncu what you hava assu:nsd the condition of ':ho plcat to bc u
.. I following this tragic event.
i 3 DR. MC CCLLOM: May I assist? - 2 . p . t l
,tl
u_r = = =_;:= u. .m m._ w_. . .
',1 :
6 <
-p 1 .
- I ,
1907i ' a
~' '[apb6' 1 MR.-KAFOURY: Plaase.
1 I
- }. i ,
i 3 3 DR. MC COLLOM: Have we established which train ' I i . l ~ D 3 and what its objectives are? This is just a general -- j- " 1 o 'l, WITNESS WITHE?3: As far as I knod it is. i U i I
;y 4
d!i , DR. MC COLLOM: Would it be helpful if we picked I
; 1
^
i! I' one? f i"-
?) MR. BANKS: I don't think the question can be i
e e i answered in this complicated plant with that kind of a ques-9 tion. I. 10 DR. MC COLLOM: What I would like to do at this i
) l p ;; ;
point, I think -- this may help-- is to establish sena of the l bases on which control systems in nuclear systems are mado
- l h ) g as a general bases, because I think that might be helpful in
- - gt- viewing
- it from the point of view we're talking about hara.
l' !! I'll just take one , channel, let's just say, and Ig , <> 0 I will pick a neutron channel as a typical channel. Itow don't !I g c .
;y , pin me down that this is what you do or don't have, but as a .
8, i, ., .6 general philosophy. I . 3(n IIere is _ a neutron channel that measures the a , . i
, _ac neutrons in the reactor that in essence measures the power ,
it ' j :n level, and you'have a point at which if that' neutron channel
-g 1 ,
is working.and it goss above a cartain level it causes the
) l l
g ! reactor to be chut down because that is the designcd system. I - . WITNESS WITHERS: That's correct. ; f- w g 3 DR. MC COLLOM: You have one channel. ! f: . .
.,.-,.,,--e- - - + ---y - , -. w , - , , ,, .,- ., , ,,, .,n
, :. . - . - z. = ;.---.=- =:======. .
y . i _:
.I 1908j And'you'have another channal that's next to it - !
f] l mpb7 1 f N' F-well, next to it, another channel that measures the same thing. l
,m 3 and it's completely separated all the way down the lino from 1-l
' l t l ! 4 [ the point at which it measuras the neutron: all i:he ucy through; i 5 j} to the point where it causes the rod to drop in and rhut down ! A 11 1
,s
, G the reactor. That's the second lino. } s 7}y Now that's train A and train B. , 1 I: } e 0 WITNESS WITHERS: But in tha case of nuclear ;
.l 9; instrumentation and'some of the protei:tive systems it's even -
10 , more involved than that in that you have perhaps four channals !
~
F. of nuclear instrumentation and it takes two out of four radun-i
R dant signalc to give you a shutdcwn cignal. I.
*2, DR. MC COLLOM: But the principle I'm going to a ~% / ;
f4 y; try to make here is different from that, though. [ 2
)
.l
) 15 l Let's just assume there's two because then it's
- c ; like some of the other systems and you can change it over to l Il I
- ;p y the auxiliary feed pump or whatever other system you want to. 4 1
, :, g '
Now let's assume that both of those did go out. , 4 1 d g D Do you have seme other method of measuring neutrons, or do you I p,0 4 have some other method of establishing that the power ic going ! 0; [} up that' would in itself cause it to shut dcun, then? j 3cth . - .I -
= f neutron channels are out'of operation.
l' ' g WITNESS FEEWInG:- The gensral answar to your ques-- a i . t i
,. y[ tion.is yes, as Mr. Withers said. Tenperature and proccure, ;
g for exampic, of the reactor veasel would tell you that -- i a . q 3 4 ( k
...% .--g ' : ragme==
+% *=%w H 4-W--n-
+~e*%--- -v-' t
= , -
n - - + , . - < - . -
1909 j#'T mpb8 1 DR. MC COLLOM: And you have more than one ( t C ^! 2 channel there as well, do you, measuring the temperature and I j f- 3 pressure? 4 UITNESS FREWIMG: Yes; , t i
- 5) g DR. MC COLLOM: And that would't'311 you that l
i G {j-the power was going up in some unsafe mannor or something, so I 7j that would be another factor. ' And" there's a nu=ber' of them
, Sii behind that too, is that correct, that would also measure
{ D , some charact' eristic that's going on that is saying that tlie ii ! 10 ;! reactor is approaching an unsafe condition? 21 ,' WITNESS FREWING: That's the ganaral philosophy .
"2 of system design, yes. *
[(~ ) ' 13 Fl DR. MC COLLOil: Does that help? li sa ji MR. KAFOURY: It does. , 3-is B BY MR KAFOURY: ',
- .[ t,$ Q Let us say that we want to shut doun the .A
,,. plant. That's the given, for whatever reason, we want to {
. ~ shut down the plant. Yor instance, we've had an SSE earth-
- 9 , quake and you're required to shut down the plcat in tha shes-t-
- g. est possible time. And assume again tilat thers has been g; damage to one of'these instruments --
{;
}.
,, , 1 A (Witness Withers) One of which instrum:nts? j
,; ; Q One of these instruments which we.either have }
i , i
, L; t- discussed or are on the brink of discussing, (a) through (a) --i 4
-l well, leaving out (e) for the moment. l
[~ s 73 1 ( )
=
5' i
* . maw-. me. .+2- .uw . . - ~ . - ., . , . . .
= . - - .--. - . 2 .. _ . .
s u i-i 1910 { . tl 8 l( V .. h spb9 1f i If you suffered a loss of one train 'o f switch ; 2[ gear, for instance, would that knock out one train? 4
S! A Yes, it would. !
n!
- i 4[
Q Okay. 1 1 i ^ 4
*. 3 ti Let's say that train A had its cuitch gaar hnoched
. j p! 4 G , out, and then what would it taha to knoch out t ain 3 so that h i, v,
* 'i d you would not be able to shut down, aside from manual shutdown?:
1, g
' 9 ', 3 A Probably the only place whers ona problem that's ;
7 the entire train is in either the electrical cupply or the l 0} l
'* O [ control system to that train.
. i
.; i'
't i Now if you have a probicm in the control systom you can get around that by manually --
) 4.*! Q What is the control system to the train?
14 !! MR. SAMIG: I think he.ought to be allowed to i answar the question first. I s
- ! l CHAIPllTW MILLER
- Yes.
;3 .i '
j t i , ; . ji Pinish your answer. j , t _ ,3 ' WITNESS MITHERS: The control cycted would be the! 1 ( I system that would tall the various pieces of equipmant in that j i~
.,3
- e. il 1 21 li train to operato.. But that function could be done by the I H ;
; *, h: operators if the control system ware to malfuncticn. (
d i r; -': ' If you did not have electrical power to the var- ; t t
=/ ious components of the train then the train 10 incperabis, i n :
.f n i,i But as you mentioned in your question, if you had lost the i
l f I switch gaar of one train, and I assume, then, that there la 4 3 lI
;} - .
N G fa
- . . ~ . _. -m.
#8P' '".r' #.hik.r- Ah g, ,
I. 1911 l . l
'N, mpb10 1 ,'. no power available in that switch gear, then thn corgonents i i
2 which are norr. ally provided power from that train would be n - ;
- 4 , inoperable.
I and 2f a' ,
+
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.. 3 i t
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.. "._ _ _ 3 _._
l. l D j in . TO ;, (
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,. ... . , , .- , . . .y . m,. , ,., ,,.,,,.y..--,.., ,.. c,--,-,my.,....-.,,. -.,-y..
Ii 1912 ! i
^{ }} !
2G agb1 Is the engineered safeguards actuation' system
]s g3
,} Q ,
l 7.400 centered in one piece of machinery, one instrument? l.
^
3 l f A Yes, I would say that - No, there are actually , i A P, 5 y two trains and there are tuo energining devicas to acch l Blj train. And these are located in heavy metal cabinets within ; G .
', the control recm.
3, , 7f , j So that, in the event of something falling say 3 i,
- ~
within the^ control rocm,~thsse could noh be-hit-inadvertently
. . because they are further protectsd by being inside these "O !'
heavy metal cabinets which house the control pancls and ,
.. . I se i :
i the equipuents in the backs of the control panels. So they j 12 $ are not readily susceptible. ] [s s is \ A But there are these, actuating devican which would 14 start or send signals to the various pieces of equipment 15 in an emergency safeguard features train. . to Q Postulate that Train A is knccked out.by loss 17 'I of switchgear and Train B has the engineered safoguards j 1-f actuation system knocked out through, say, floor response lo ~ spectra problems. It gets rattling around thara, inside { the big metal cabinet and is somehow damaged. At that peint, what would you be unabic to do as a result of those postulata , difficulties? i i ji A (Uitness Brochle) I think we have a ;c Bu!.. tion 2s l, that is really beyond credibility in this point. And, again, s
\M UN an accident has not been described, so that you dcn't really
} '
a : i i,i n
.. . ._ _ . - , - . . _~"~_-_... - _ . - . _ _
~ ._. .- - .- . _- - - _ . . .
dl 4c 1913 i I i . {~% s i agb2 1 know what equipment is required. w p. .
, Q All other things normal, would you be able to
~
e
~ shut down the plant without the manual feedpumps?
4{ I A Just the vary situation you'vc deceribec, the
,]
i j *
~h e
{ plant is already shutdown becausa you'va knocked out things 3 !j; that are essential to keep the plant operating. It would , 7[ 1 trip by itself. i I
.c
~
- i. l 4 -
-Q- What would have tripped it? Tha switchgear? l t 1 oi
~; A The loss of redundant trains. You can't hsva that.i'.
i . 10 '
' i
[ Q I didn't know that. ; l { A -- and continus operation. I s Q So, if one switchgear is knocked out, then l~' automatically the solid state protecticn system -- that is, l 14 ( the rods?
- i . I 15 A The reactor control sees signals fro'm upset IO ' ,. There are many, many conditions which cause it to trip.
17l sources. j
.g
' I a
Q And that's one of them?
' t 9[ A That's one of them. -
1 U !) Q If the solid stata protection system -- the solid
,,.. nil .
"i :{ stata p2 0 taction systela, is that combination of systs:cs,
, l'i !
* .q . t.
switched when tripped -- causes the centrol rods to bc -
. l'
- 1!. inserted into the nuc1 car material, is zh d c :ract?
n-k,i.. A
% That's correct.
03 Q If that happens, but the autcmatic feedpumps are i 1
\,
'e
.- ._ . ~ _ , _ , . _ . . ~ ~ . . .. . . . _ . _ _ ..
l ) 1914 , ! l 3 f% :s 9
- I
) agb3 knocked out and let's say for some reason the manual pumps
, h
- 4 2; i are not brought into operation, what would be the result l' e 3; !
1 of that? 2 f. . i
- g. The pumps are nec2ascry to shut d:em :.h.: plant, i
C 3 .:*
;1 aren't thay? Tha rods are not sufficiant in anu cd theu-3 a. s :f. solves to chut down the plant, is that correct? ;
t ~j ' l ' e' i;i A The plant is shut down. It's a matter of heat l 1 . 3,
- , I,
- I removaLaftar that. . ~
N! . Q ktat c o you mean by shut do m .3 t.
.n l ; A The reactor is tripped. Wacn the rocctor trips,
{ {j . i the turbine trips and the plant is shut down. a l 3 It's not generating power any more?
"j Q l l
, 'I '3
' I! A It is not generating power. The nucicar process j g
M is shut down, so all you have 1cft to take care of is 'he c $ 3 residual haat from the reactor. {
- 1 16 Q Is the residual heat, in the absence of the pumps, I
l g,'li theoretically great enough to cause a meltdown?
) -
'S.
A No, the auxiliary pumps are tnere to prevent that. i > 1i 19 ln That's why we have the diverse and redundant scuroca of 4
.. 1:
t < i Md!! energy for the' pumps. The separate ; shutdown panel and tha ] U ]o emergency facilities are incorporated in t he plant design , il
~
to provide for the diverse redundant multiavanues o2 l Ud i being able to get thoas pumps -atarted and put th=.t watar
,l l
f_ ay-intotheplant--intothesystnu. Mhb Q In other words, in order to be certain that you're
'l
${
ti. s
?! _. . . _ . . - . _ . _ _ _ - .
g 7- w.' -- p=--r- '
_. _w.___ _ _ _ . . .
) 1915 0
l h . agb4 going to avoid a meltdown it is necessary to hcve the pumps
\J. . ')
2; i either electrically or manually working, in addition to , 3 the solid state protection system? Correct? 4l
> A Mo.
l
,, ,l - .
1 A (Witness liithers) After the plant is shut doun
- 6l by the control rods being inserted into the pl. int, nea" 4
i
=
! ! I continues to be generated. If no operator action wers taken, O
this heat would result in an_incraase in temperatura and
)
pressure in the steam generators until the cetpoint of the 3{ j 10 1 i
, relief valves was reached, at which time they would open, !
i i
" relieve steam to the atmosphere and thereby renove heat
- u. i
' !,i from the generator, from the steam generator.
This process would continue, as the pressure went t d* down the safety relief valves would close, heat would 5 continue to build up, raising temperature and pressure 16 ' and this process would repeat. 1
- 7 lI>
5 Now, eventually you would uso up all the water l
. . 1 TG within the steam generators and you would no longar have a l
1 - . j 39 heat sink. Before that water is gone and before you reacn j s :
- U that prob 1cm, it's necessary that you have th capsility E of adding water to the steam generators so that you can put i U in water and take off steam to continue to rencve heat. l
~
E.p So for the first coveral cinutec cr un to about - 1 : M i an hour, somewhere in that hallpark the quantity, the ! ( 25 c inventory of water in the steam generators is sufficient lI ul.
-4 .r- -em6+--a '*"d Gu 'wa-+-r se-
1 a ,
> . 1916 i
I
' ~. ~ ' '
' C'"> agb5 just through the relief valves opening, to handic this probleh!. ; 2},
' )l Now after that, you've got to be abic to inject j 3l; l
} or pump water into the steam generators. You have two
.,t
[ atu:lliary fesdwater punps. You've got nain f ndscaps that a1 ;
- j
ll . operate off steam, they may be operable. I 3f , I Many of thu questions that havo been asked don't
+
7f' really identify scme of the conditions which might exist i 3
' ~ ~ ~ '
when this problem arose, and that makes them difficult 91
$ to answer. ~
, 10b f
;.l But there are many things that you could do to 1 j
l li o !
! lins up one or more of theca varicus alternate cour:2s of !
g, ! ' z
- g. . feedwater cnd get water going into the generctom. .
And that would be -- once the plant was safely is : shut down, that is, the nuclear reaction had'b 6n stopped,
!3 i that would become the number one concern of the operating 16 j crew would be to get those systems going. l 9; .
i d And it is realyy difficult to identify any single j
=
'S
. event or loss of instrument or loss of some pisce of switch- '
'O '
gear that would preclude that from happaning. l 20 ' I CHAIRMAN MILLER: Just a moment. .
'31 l-, We'ro going.to take a short racess,. tan minutas,
,, i -
Dr. McCollom would lika to have access to s0=c scrtions of 23 3 i 1:he F3AR. Could t'ut be arrangsd? s ,
- 24. i 3j - MR. BMIKS : Certainly.
?.5 h' CUldRMAN 28. ILLER: Tsn ninutes, please.
4 (Recess.) 1 i . J. is e '% e w e ay e.. -+.m., w.,e --
.ye s, .
. , , .my., .. . 4 w.
Il 1917 [t s 2h ebl 1, CHAIRMAN MILLER: Ms. Bell, do you want to proceed ( l
' ' 09 2l i in the absence of Mr. Kafoury? We're ready to go. Do you (
7 want to ask'some questions? .l t 4' MS. BELL: Generally I go efter Mr. R:colis.
, 5i CHAIRMAN MILLER: ;'.r. nosolie.
e 6* MR. ROSOLIE: As I understand, Mr. Rafcury ic
'i
- 7 going to be here in a second. There he is now.
i i* - ~.. - P, ,, -- CHAIRMAN MILLER: You'almost tripped our alarm
'I 9 system, Mr. Kafourf.
10 MR. KAFOURY: I'm sorry I'm late. 11 CHAIPl!AN MILLER: You may prcceed. BY MR. KAFOURY:
, 12 ,
I , l! <-<)- 1.3 ' O Part E, Control room heating, ventilating, and i 3 4 14 air conditioning system. How is that related to safety? 15 A (Witness Frewing) It ensures proper temperatures 16 for operation of the electrical equipment. It ensures 1
,7 habitability for the operators. I t
I. 18 Q What kind of temperature range is the equipment i I. 19 designed to endure? .! t j, 20 A I':n sorry, I don't know the e:cact numbers in the
.21 [ range of 140 degrees Fahrenheit.
s i
, :2 4 MR. KAFOURY: I will have no further questions en l the design response spectra, on the condition that
'13 :
at Mr. Christensen agrees to spend a few minutos at lunch time 33 trying to explain it to me. Is that fair enough? 7 .
.l - . . - . . ..
-'TWN.Mz9a h +9 s i sggg pee .,
4 , T
- v -
1r ' " ' - - - - - ---___ma _. - . - _ _ _ _ _ - _ a_-
...: =. - = _: , . :_ .-
t ( l 1918 l . Q eb2 I! CHAIRMAN MILLER: I take it it will be the subject V '* , of an informal conference, if Mr. Christensen has no objec-l- 3 tion.. It is not a condition of your employment, hcwever. l. II (Laughtar.) ., I 5I If you're willing to confer, Mr. Christensen, -- ,, ( l- 6 i1R. BANKS : Wo'll do about anything'if there are t ? no more questions. {l a l - 91 CHAIRMAN MILLER: Very well. j' O Mr. Rosolic. 10 MR. KAFOURY: I just have cna or two ".or3. 11 CHAIRMAN MILLER: Very well. Proceed. la ! BY MR. IM'OURY: r l 13 O Mr. Christensen, Professor Holley said that the i , 14 key to inspections after an earthquake is to know what you are 15 looking for. Who would do inspections im::tediately af ter an , 16 earthquake which required the plant to shut down, and what instructions have they received on what to look for?
,7 li,
.., *G A (Witness Christensen) I have qualified structural
~
, f, - engineers on,my staff 'and in addition, I have qualified civil p[.
20 i engineers itho ara very knowledgeable in the areas of struc-d
'21 ! t, tural design. These people uculd kncu the locations with
, , '?. J ' regard to beams , columns, and connecticns that ueuld bo high-a
$,,j ,' stress points and they would first look at dose po'.nbs.
it
- FA l Q On page 3 of your responses to the CCC questions, t ***'
. ~, : -. Interrogatory 6, talking about the seminal event hero, t L 4
0 j ' V , ' I .. . ~ _ _4 .
.) _
1921
..t ' .
I O 'N ( ! eb5 i -- basically said that the Nuclear Regulatory Cem:nission is s 4 2 not sufficiently thorough and aggressive in inspecting the I i 3 construction of. nuclear power plants? . 4f A I'n not thercughly aegain :e26 vith it I.'ut I havo 1 i 51 haard of it.
! r
< fi j Q Given.that statenant, does thnt hav2 any ha: ring
. 5 ' 'I 7 on your statement of a high degrce of ccouran=2?
< P, 1 '
A Hono whatscevar. _ , . . . . _ l e' Q So in your mi5id then, actually tha degree that i
;O 'j the NRC participated in overseeing the construction of h
1 I'
- Trojen vould not have a bearing on the quality assuranca?
i l in i A That's correct. ()
,v 13
;4 !!
1 i [ Q How many reportable occurrences hava occurred at Trojan that are due to design deficiencies or bacatae of i
;5 l faulty work in the construction?
4 V.l'
;5 MR. SANKS: I object to that as being irreicvant, i
,7 9., Mr. Chairman.
1
- ;3 .t CIIAIRMAN MILLER: No, I belicva it's relevant so 4
D . 19 'j far. I 294 r! Do you understand the question, the reportable
-.. E.;
errors that are dus'to the two factors specified.? ,
! s I
.s.
. MR. BANKS: I think we have also an:Warad thct l
3
. qnration in an interrogatory.
P
. / r.A a: CHIJERMAN MILLER: Interrogatcries are not evidenca f ) t jv) - .
".-. :i;; uR. amas: I uneerstand.
a i.! 8'
~ - - . . . _.
.+- -~..'...--. . mm . . .%e . . . _ , . , _ , , , , , ,
, 4 ,-. , *.,.--,-----g e.-e-ar
~ o 1922
.{
V s, ab6 I WITNESS FREWING: If we can look for a moment to i
/ i 1
N b .
.P ; 2 <
find ~our answer that we prepared we can give the same answer. i i ,
,3 CHAIRMAN MILLER: Surely-- Wall, if there's a '
4 chtnce you might give a different one, naybe you had better i ; l l, 5{ answer it without locking. j GiI (Laughter. ) ,
~
7 MR. KAFOURY: You gentlemen will find a partial l-t 1 1
. 8 response to the questilon in the response to the Licensees' ;
D response to Columbia Environmental Council Interrogatories. 10 WITNESS FREWING: Which numbers j
- 1 MR. KAFCURY: The CEO Interrogatories datad 12 October 15th, served October 27th.
l 1 g .
, j 12 , WITNESS FREWING: We don't have a copy of the '
"\. f 14 , attachment to our response to Interrogatory 22 '.rith ui.
15 (Document handed to the witness panol.) te WITNESS FREWING: I count 21.
;7 BY MR. ROSOLIE:
. 13 0 That's just due to design errors?
gg A (Witne'ss Frewing) Correct.
) 20 0 Do you know how many due to -- because'of faulty m wn% done during construction?
y A No. 23 Q Is there a list of those ccmpiled?
- g4 A . (Witness Brcehl) We have not compiled such a lict. ;.x ' '
{ p,g Q. When a reportable occurrence happens and fcu fill
\
e*=w. .% +. .=eew,... -
l v .-
^
. 1923 h.
4. t.. ) [h
,V2 ab7 1 out a report and it is, say, under a specific area liko 2 i? design, quality assurance, personnel error, equipm.at f ailure,
- j- .
L 3' {L are they .the'. filed according to the category that they - il.. . 1 - ~ occur cd ot j us t by da'ce ?'
-l
- i. - .
. n i
i *
. 'j U
A (Witnesc' Withers)- The Licensoe 3 vent R3;crts are )' 6hi- filled out and distributad in accordance with liF.C instructions
. t l Tl in the guideline they put out "or that purpose. They are
]
C
, _ a public document in the reading recm, available to anybody '
9 ll at any time. .
,1 ID l '
Different use can bo made of those by differ :t people. At the plant we do an annual ravicw of Licanssa Mh jl Td Event,Ruports, locking for trsnds or continuing problens that l
) ?2 j, need additional management attention.
Y 14 ll The number of reports we just looked at as design 15 errors I think could also be construed as design deficiencies, 10 and I would want-to indicate that there are both kinds which II r/ 1, . are designed as design probic:cs on the form. But a design u
. $ }j . deficiency and a design error might be slightly different.
,! $9 I do not have a number for workr.anchip probicmc
.i -
. - .10 j; but would say thsy would be very, very small.
1 21 j' .CHAIPl!AN MILLER: Lot me inquire whether T. Of n .
- 22. ,'j , these reportable occurrences or informaticn reichad -::o them a
p a.3 1 have any bearing upcn either tho seismic capahilitics cf th: il
,:: sc 'r3 3 control building or upon necessary elsments for a safe chut 0 ') ll . .
t
; down inthe. evant of a seismic event. If so, identify them, n .
il,>
^
c.. _ ._ - _. __ . - .
.iv. % ,.,v.. , w ade. .,e .. '- *.weas.-+- - -+wpgen A *ww, . - , .
M w w w - w pv -, e v me-' -3 y - -tq.m y q.yw-
a 1924 l
- . ?
(/^ ab8 1 please. l QM 2 WITNESS WITHERS: Mr. Chairman, your question is
\
j
, l i r 3[; a little bit broad. We have had a number of problems in the l 1
early months of operation acsociated with the aexiliary feed- l 1h ! li li e'
' 3 jj water pumps.
y I i
.5 i CHAIRMAU 2CLLER: Which has a ralationship cr could 7 have a relationship to the safe shutdown capability in the a
.,-~s 8 event of a seismic occurrence?
l _ 9[ ! WITNESS WITHERS: But they were not really~ i 10 j . seismic-related. i itj CHAIEMAN MILLER: Here they safe shutdown-related l 12 ) which could have a roasenable connecticn or relationship.to 6,) is seismic occurrences?
\
1;l WITNESS WIT *IlR3 : They were the kind of prchicm i 15 (e that would not have affected our capability to shut down the 16j plant as required by the procedure in tho rient of a ceismic 17 i . occurrence. They were all control prob 1 cms that affected the 1S automatic sta rt of the units. In the event of a c213mic f tg event, why a manual start is more than cdequata.
. 20 CHAIRMAN MILLER: Is the 'same truc of the seismic F
gg capability strength, that is to say of the centrcl building? t n i WITHESS UITHERS: One Licensce Evant Report t I
- 23 h recently issued was I believe Mumber 78-13 that hed to de with 0
24 Ai 7 ,
!lj wall penetrations, and I think that's been discussed earlier
('a [ ,qg , l in the hearings. t 8 . w-
t, e . ->: - . i t, . 1925 .#. I ' 1p3 eb9 1[ - - WITNESS FREWING: ., Licensee Report ,o-13 was cur , i a : 7 / 2 hp submittal or. May 2 that' gave rise to this proceeding. l .i s
- t . .
[ 3 he CHAIRMAN MILLER: . I sea. Very well. Thank you. j. .i l' il h.
]," J [; You may procc:d.
i , l e! DR. PAXTGli May I cch hora, e.re tcst Of th303 i
,c ;
3; . concerned with' design deficiencies cf equipmant as opp.md .
' t
-7 to structure, or how do they balance cut?
l,
!, 3i .
WITNESS WITHERS: '?cs, I would say they wara, and
..l9 o !l' probably uith systems as much as equipment, san 11 dsficiencies I
10 ,i that subsequently led to cparctional problans of a minor n7 nature.- -;
- I i s! r,R. PAXTC'f: Ic Ir. ore than cna concern d with j ul structural design d2ficiency?
;qi WITNESS.BROEEL: I believe that 7G-13 is the only ;
e i
'5[ structural design deficiency.that we hcvc identified since I i
34 plant operation. I 17 j DR. PA% TON: Thank you. 2h ! 1 3a fla .,, 9 !.' t I
- e' i
a 2d 1 j
.we
., . .{ .,
d
.M ll
. .. . s q "J: .
if h.
. . . , . - . . . . m ....w. - . . . . . . . - . - . - , . - . --.
~y a. v< - sv ,,, s.o ,mne. sm -~me.ns.-r* .ws...-
r ., . m, , , , , g y- ,,-,, - . , , - - - .,v w. , _.y -
.i j' i* ,
'{ .1926 , l i:
.l
, .gNm s3 j ' i g l 3A agbl. BY MR. ROSOLIE: *
- v. r C10 2) '
Q There was a questien brought up, or it ca:aa out : b < when Mr..Kafoury asked a question as to cracks in the con- -f
'1 sll 0 tainn.ent building.
f e . { : .' g [*! I was uendering, werc there any thor cr!.ci:s that i ;; occurred in the plant due to the normal opezation of the ! t
- - 7 1- plant? .
i
. s
-- --- A .(Witness Bronhle) There arc nu::ercus shrinkage .
9 cracks in clabs and poscibly scas in walls the.t are par-l 10 l ceptibia. I perscnally knew of cna blo :3 nasce.ry *.1a11 that . l q' ;
! has a visible shrinkaga crach in it. Chis iJ n :J: c chaas
.,s wall..
. l p~ k *
'y In my personal viewing of the main structural l>,
! elements, and particularly the control building walls, 'l 1 l
15 noticable cracks arr. just non-c::istent. l 16 Q cracks to any equipment due to nor:nsi operation, i l
, ,. or supporting structures?.
1.! r ]'! . A -No. 1l I 9'I i A (Witness Frewing) I do re, call one of the 21 !
; 1 20
- i' Licenses event reports previously notad had to do uith, l 91 I beliava it was, pipa supports where a esf:ctiva *tald l i
n ,I l
~
_. . wr.s found.
.3
- l. Q And whct is the nurt .r cf th.t rep ;t? 1 1
' O *i A-
- i It was provided in tha intarrogr..torv *:r:cua. - "
- f. .. 'N - /
A_,j e',.: 4)l (Q I can't saa the nurber, and I thottshu maybe you
' !i 1
. y. . 1
- i. i s _ . _ _ . _ - .
- ~ . , - - , . . . _ -
mr ye,
l,
- 1 .
it . l i. 1927 ( 1
,_ p gi
[ kr lI i agb2 i, j i might have it.
- A I'u sorry, I can't see it eithar. !, l
- 1 3,
i - Q It says the T-bar supporters located in tha !
,I t ., !
I pips .3c.setion. i l s A 'Jos. That we.s Ropo::ttb:... Occurer.nce 77-13. Q . t P Q Maybe you could. . . . It's my undars ::.nd.ing fron " lj r, , 1- .,. , reading tnat that this occurred on w o cccasionc bcth
- t. j, n '
. . t March 1st,1977, and liovenbar 17, 1977. I j
-.- - . . _ . . . . _ _ _ _ . i j
_ ~ _
. A (Nitn2ss Eroshlo) This particular f.33ign dafect, :
t ' l in if wo may call it that, has to do vie.1 the 1.e/lica e_.at ia i t t
. . . . 1 ll
' ' .1 connacted to the pipe to allow lcagitulin:.1 and 12.t:;ral
~ 'i ficxibility, but providing vertical support. ,
i ( U rk
"~ !!!
1 It is not a structural member of the building, f
!, l as such, _ nor is it a rigid connection bet'.raen the building 4il!. .I
,l U l and the pips. This, in effect, was a pad on the pip 2 that !' '
1 '- l allowed it to move freely in all but one direction.. . I. !. ,
. And the manner in which it was connected to the '
l . u, i j .. pipe was the design deficiency. It was not a rald problam, i
, . l l*
*0 t but a design probism. -
s
.. i 20 ,
. Q Lst's assume cor a mement, that an carthquake -
l E ,. - occurred, there was v2rtical motion Sn.t did nct C.rr tint t'
- v. i .
p pipe to move, the pipo cracked. What wou.'.d ccc, ?.t uns
,s
'l
--' ;, -plant?
, . . 4
'-' {i A (Uitness Fre. wing) This prcbica did n:t r.0.at; w - {a ;
g s. U09 to the pipe cre.cking, but it was a support cracking, I i. A a ."
. 1.
. 8 'e
*I . . , . - . . . . . . _ . . . . _ _ . _ . . . , . _ . . _ . . _ , , . _
~.- - L .. .
.-. :-.x.- u.- .-: :_- . :.- u, . = . = . ~
.. . 4 1928 :<
1 14 1t 1, f, fC4R)
-( agb3 } believe. And the support would crech, perhaps, but there I
i 28 '
*.. would bs no obvious consequential damaga.
3 b Q. !!as Portland General Elec'ric c done any vibration 4 .j y analysis on equipr. ant '.ihen the pl:.".sc is enr:.ti. .'? -
? g[
.i ! A (Mitness Brochic) For '.that pur.;0sc?
) 3v To discover such things as wis il.sc:v0:1d f.n y,
] $
Q ! ' t
- a \ <
t .. this LER. :
. AL i
__ _. A .,,, For that purpose, no. _ _ . . i 1
$1 - . __
l; Q For what purpcscs did you do thsm? 36 A We have done soma equipment vibrcticn analysis 1 to :]n 1 i .i' l in an offort to datormine operational moda cacractaristics l h l
;3 l which can predict changes in the operaticnal charactaristics 1 ,
of the plant and equipment. It has nothing to do with 14 i i seismic cr structural capability. I I t j$ 'h ! Q Did those studies include the centrol building? i l i l '* A Pardon? i
" d Q Did they include the control building?
I: ..,i I *
. A No. l
'9 Can you turn to Interrogatory Raponsca to Stevn l Q
.-o I
9
~"d1 Willingham" datc'd August 11, 1973 cnd,Interrog::.t:ry 12?
i v~ jI In raspcnse to Interrogatory 12, I tri:d sc .
/,ll .
look up really quick who RCA is. C2.n you tell r.3 tho th : !
" }l e '
A
'~~ l j is?
. I.
!- MR. BANKS: It's Mr. Anderson, I believo.
. -~s !
- ( .c
'" I 1
WITNESS DROEHIS: Yas. l1, 1
'O" 'S'# "' 4 pp gg _
_a *
.. u - . . . = . = - - .a..:. . . . ...
n
~
,3 5
l 1929 ; a . ;m .
)
<, agb4 1[*: - MR. DANICS: Of Bechtcl.
9'
&--fb 2l -
MR. ROSOLIE: Of Dcchtel Corporation. , o .
, .p s 31
. D*/ MR. ROSOLIE:
2.
',n.
~
'j , G 2:r.d in hi.s resp:n.3. 30 2.;;.t it.n :.': : .. ' . i .. ,
'l 5 li 1 i . .' y which tha qucetion vas: 4 . .
, ,j , "Pleacs prcW.da vibratica encJ. . Ti 3 . ) ; -I l.
t conducted when rsactor and turbine t.ra in ! i l i n 9 i o i . 4 .i - .1,p operation."
- t. . .
a t
- i! The rc= pense of th?.t interrcgator-1 at::: $
I iu j'I.
' l b
No vibration anal cis hn3 *:Onn .c. :tr- i.,
gt !!' t 4 1 formad on the control buildi.w when the w ct:r - ! 1 h i ma >
~ P and ths turbinc building are in ccarntion." ~
i 70 ' 1( / A (Witness Droshle-) That's correct. N . ..' g , )
, Q Is that true? j 6 >
15 A It's true. T
' 3 Q Dut there has been otudies dons en iqui;nant
~ a., l insida tne control building? i 1' , I t
- 18'l A Not whan the plant's in operaticni no.
l
, l .
U -- - 18 ! O The 20, 21 Lens due to design d2fici".ncy arrors, l
'O '
is that considehd normal? , , 3, il j MR. DAli!CS: Objection ac nch bei ~ rC.r/..t. n ., t d'
;L CHAIR:IAlf M~LLEn: Ststained. -
. ,a 1
. , .. . > . s,.
.e. .
s,, . n.o. e. a.-u., . 4 O /T MM . Q. Would these have 2.ny bearing en your c.csccon:nt n T . , . . ' gj
* *; of the capability of tha Tro-ian Muclear 70 Var 21=.nt to -
;l
'k p .
t 6 .* . , . , . - + -
'N WPMd. .e ge4 pn= es#E st v't* ha.weW e ,,4 q, p .,q,m, % ,,
- . .- . - ~ . .. - - . - .... --, j
-f i' - il ! !
1930l 1
. l; '
1 l 4 ( agb5' , perform adoquately? A rN 2l
- j V.' L MR. DAt1KS
- Objection, irrelevant.
. C11AIni.!A11 IIILLER: During the interim opere. tion 'i Ai
- {'. ! period? l
,i ,
r i. BY tin. Ros0LIC - 5 i l ; ,, Q During the interic operation paried. ',
!! - 7 i
CHAIRMA11 MILLER: You may answer.
. 8 r...
- WITNESS BROEliLE: . Uculd you repent _the full ...
.l I 9
question and then we'll try to answer it? 50 DY MR. PDSOLIE:
..i .
.s.
v i 9 Q Uould the 20 design deficiencias,. cr 22 -- 4 12'.
- I DR. MC COLLOM: . 32. Isn't th2.t *.ihat 1:.ha ni.ut er '
l i 49 ). $, ' l k, ( ' - was? , i i 14 2 i WITNESS FRSWING: I identified 21, incl". ding - 15 ; l the Licensee Event Raport which led to thic procaeding. i 10 ' CUAIRI1A11 MILLER: Let's ask then about the 20, I'1 : axcluding' the cne that we are new proceeding to analy::c. l !4 . <3 i BY MR. ROSOLI2:
.o Q Excluding tha one we are now prcceeding cr.. So
' 9
'0 that would make'20. design deficiencies. Eculd they havs . t 9*
any bearing on the adhquacy of Tr')jan to cparata during h a [ _ "nl ! interim, or your assessment of Troje.n tc cycreta dcrin'; %2 ! I ,( . . interim? , x ,. 7
' Y
',"1} '. A (Witness Broehls)- Mothing paculir.:- te this questien i ., l. .
l of the control building adaquacy. -
'"' A.I :
' it .
il
-1 . t
*~**u - o - n..e _.o,m._ ..w,. .,, _g_ , , , , _ ,
~ YM NU, 4 , e n
- spp g s.
1.,.y-. r- - eiL . -
,'ihhW..-,,--y
.c -
.u_ 1; . : - .= ~- .-
0 .
.'l -
I 1931. i t ."[' b'38agb6 I CHAI1 MAN MILLER: Havs those design deficiencies ; p' q/ / 2 g
- i. .
i been et,rrected in your judgment profcasionally, gentlamen? 1- o .s . M. WITNESS BROEHLE: They hava, or ara in tha process 4, "
*t I cf briag corr:ctad.
~
- u}' .
.s CE?JR:@.3 MILLER: -Uhathar Tray r.r./9 : n. : c:rr.:.c had '
3 '.l - .
, .[
9 or' act or are in the arocess, would interir. Our .ti' n similar
- s. ' 4 L i
te the order which has bee.n ordered uhich is.tho' subject of e
.. ._ icrutiny here__._- would they have any advcrce.cff.sch. whatsoever _
D; . . _ , . . i 3 upon the safe oparation or upcn the cap cility ed th2 safe 10 ' i shutdown in the avant of a scisnic cvont cs 101. c.: 0.03, ; N l ,
'l for a:cannic? -
f
*i.
., 1 A. , NITNZSS BROSHLE: I would recily Rini. of lika ;
No vl P '
, h answer it in another way. l
- W 10.120
, 9i Had Trojan been operating, and had this question a
*5 never come up of the. control building being perfectly 4
I i b t
<g d i satisfactory, Trojan would be operating ncy in our n.:rnal i 3, . t t
1 I
4 course of businses correcting thesc kind of defi:iancica. '
q i yi ' i We would have proceedcd to have correct 2d then and t ara {v ,<, o
, 'l, would have been nothing differons ,
93 :l - .
- a. . .
, The defect in the control 'auilding is raz.l'.y un-
- o. ,
,] related to how we would havs 90nc d ouh i'. ras, t e >.:'.7 '!u u s ui d .
.m
~
;i u
have corracted it and the timeliness of thtt c rre.ctt.cn. '
~
CIIAI".11.".N ICLL2P.: It is not a rca;;;. i'.: cc. :, . ; , n .s m{4 / 3 T*f... I'm' afraid.
- I s i
3~3 t s,,
\
m The issuo here is not wha.t Wetid have happened l sI . 55
- 9 6
, . ,_ 3 _ _ .m s__._-.-._ - - ----- - - ,- -
, ~.r + , . . .
.,......y w-- - - - - - ' - -
, , . n. m . . . . -
-m_._- . ... . , . _ _ _ , ,
3 l p 1932 -
. Y
^tr% .g i L. ' agb7 had it been designed cnd built to a 0.15g CBE, for example.
;x .
- - - 2 .
We're now in a wholly different situation whera this phass lg b ' of the proceeding is upon h e safety of intarir o?aration
..! a i :j with a cold shutdown rr guire.1 in tw: rmat o_! :. : . i::r.c .veni ,
2 1
# 5 ij as lew as 0.00, possibly.
I 0 '
*3 t Now, under % oso circumstancas, is thcra anything 1
{< jL here that affects either the safety of the intarim operation Ia .._._.--i s or-the capability of a sa.2a and successful safa shutdcwn .. .. . .;
--q -
a n 9 r
! under those circumstancas. L i
10 You want to think about i'c over :.r.ch? I d:n't
't '
want just a quick answer, if you havo not give.r. it thought. 1i 12 i I ,d n't .:21:.vic thara's: MITNESS SROBELE:
- As I say i
anything that would affect it. i CHAIRMAN HILLER: Is that true of overybody else 15 ' i on'the panal? i i ! f$ WITNESS FREWING: Yes. l 17 Yes. WITNESS CllRISTEUSEN: l i t8 CHAIR:El MILLER: Vcry well.
- lou cay proceed . ;
N Do you want your recess now, Mr. Rosol:.c? ! 6 l
* 'g j MR. ROSOLIE: Sura. That'3,1 be finc.
l CHAIRGT MILLER: All right. 1:30. ! , t ;
" I l (Whereupon, at12:05 p.m.,'tha h nring in vhe
" I tbev-a-entitled matter sim recassac'. h o r a : : n " 2 n e tch it
,. I
.. Q,.4 -1:30 p.m., this ss.me day.),.
l
'O r \j; M ,
a D t i
.. %... i..
4 , . _ , . . _ . . . m.. . . . . . . . . . . , . . , . . , ..
.. . . ..~... ~~, - . - ~ . _- . , _ . . .
e--- - - - - . . y --w ,, ., ,
- . . =-.=. - - - -~ -
-----_ z z -- m m ; z z ;- -
W 1933
,e -l -
v -
% MADELOM/ 1i AFTERNOON SESSION lle10 mpbl ,.
a L 2 , (1:30 p,.m.) i i 3 l CHAIRMAN !ELLER: We're on the record.
- n. ,
4 f Uhercupon, i CONALD J. BROEHL, a !f, t. 6l S. R. CHRISTENSEN, I n ; BART D. ICTHERd, E l ud
~ . _ . -
G JOHN L. FREUING l
, to resumed the stand as witnesses en behalf of the Licensee, i ..!
11 j ar.d, having-been previously duly sworn, wars c::amined and l 1
. .:estified furthor as follows: '
, -.. t 1 5.3 b MR. BANKS: We have copies of the diagram that p
14 '- Dr. McCollom requested, and I have .been ashed to just inform 1 t!' the Board that if you have any questions about the diagram l i 75 j. apparently Mr. Frewing is prepared to clear up any questions
- w. . .. !
]
n you might have about that
..,- ng (Distributing documents.)
,1 .; .
" CHAIRMAN MILLER:
is [, Lat the rccord show that Mr.
, Ic Gray, Staff Counsel, has handed to the Board and the parties i 21 a copy of a document dated October 31, 1978, entis. led i
~,* 2 Additional NRC' Staff Qu2aticas Ralatinti to Ficor Peaponse
~
4 Spectra and Equip!!ient Gunlifications. s 24 This is in accordance with statsmants mada by I' gg . Counsel yesterday in regard to this subject.
.\. . . . - . .-
~ ~ --
. .: x- _z zy - ^:
-^ - - ' '
-?
.'1934 y .
4 : mpb2 1'; HR. GPAY: Yes.
} i ,. .
x/5
- 2 CHAIRMAN MILLER: Fine.
j 3' Let the record alac show that the Board has re-
- c. ..!
? ! quested and has roccivod, as hav2 the partias, pio: cf the
, \ r
', 3 I Trojan Nuclear Plant FSAR, designatcd in ths 177sr right-hand
, + t < +, 8 j: corner-as Engineered Safety Featuras, Simplified Diagran,. l ! 1 E 7[ }. Injection Phase, Figure 6.3-3, below that Ar.ondment 17.
. ! f
' .t '
- G[ This is --
e< ....~.g ..w..+.w ... .
.t 9 ] Df DR. MC COLLOM:' Is that Figure 5.3-5, or -6?
D }i MITNESS FF3 WING: It*s G. . t !
- j t' DR. MC COLLOM
- It"3 hard to tall in this repro-3 t,2 duction. '
3 l- CHAIRMAN MILLER: Usil at any rate, we have it l' i ' s mj(. before us. At the bottom it's typed in "pmandrnnt 17". i i The Docrd may utilize this documcnt or may not 15]i
,.3 ,I in questions, so we therefore wanted it to be available to I
- e, ! all partics and Counsel.
! I j
-m 'MS. BELL: Mr. Chairman?
- m. . .f, ,
CHAISMAN MILLER: Yes. O, , *. '
- !, 2;)y'! MS. BELL
- I spoke to my technical consultant 1.
and possibla witness, Mr. Robert Pollard, last night, and he ; m .
;n ,( is -in the process of revieuing the floor recponsa spectr ra and
. U g f'; the. -- wall, t'2e reruits of that that the Applicant had sub-n e 'em dt ! .ow uhat the Staff was doing, and
<L
.l '
4
. % +
e 4 - '. g.9 4 'W
+ .46 4 *- - + w.4 .
.m e- ..-.
.~ - . . --
- ~ . ~ .
4- . 1935
' ti ?
ti 9 4 .e O Ni mpb3 I bi so I told him what the situation was with these additional ( ^/ !1 s 2j Staff questions.
~
l And he was interested in receiving these u 3 .:, as soon as possible. i i
, c t i
.s: ,
iE 3 And I would be interacted to find cut if the
.: i
.i .. Ej Daard could direct the Staff and the Licencoe to send the
,, 6:j responses to these questions and anything that the Sinff night
. a 7' ;
come up with themselves directly to !Ir. pollard in order to
.e ;; .
18 _. 1 R, expedite his being able toJ ut input into this. j r-
~
4
; LU CHAIRWdi !! ILLER: Well, I thinh that would be
- i F.;!fyourresponsibility.
And I don't think it would cave tima 4 4 1: h anyway. This is Wednesday, after all. !; .. I think that the Eccrd 'p robably will review it
. V~ \ ::
j( j. ;i h as we go along. We would probably like to hcve the witnesses x _ 1-k [ who are capable of testifying with regard to thoce matterc
.i .
3 ji available Friday morning about 3:30
. .; y MS. 3 ELL: Mr. Chairman?
i l .;h CIIAIRMidi !! ILLER: 'les. 4
'. .c '.. MS. BELL: If I could com sat a liti:la further:
- a. , ' There is obviously -- er at least ebvious to me, 4
. ,1, -
@ ;'j that thera is no way that I can get my witnass hers on Friday a- norning. I wculd like to be abla to bring his i:p u en .uch
.. 2
+
as possible to this croceeding en this particular sifafect, in M,, .
, ;;. that he~was p.7.rt of a original Trojen inspect!.cn te r..dih
.~ . g; j the NRC and has particular concarn of t'le andaty-rnlstad f
O ,y, x e (v) + a-.- a., equipmsnt recistence to seismic sysnts. f,
,o .
And ha is ccmpletely a hl 1 so .
.i
-.
- 1'+'-W'% F'
, g 193G t
i ,e
/D Ii mpb4 1, familiar with this and he has a lot of expertise.
v/;" ,t 4 So if the Licensee co.11d help by aiding in I 'J It P getting the things through their Teletype machine that seems
.,1 r' tI j:, to cap infermatien from conat to coast it aculd Osrtainly
, b help the information on the record.
P, a, . i.i CLMR:4AH MILLER: idell tk at's a mattsr I think
! you'll have to take up with the Licensee. It's not a matter g .-m.--,e,-.esig %,, 3h that_.the Board should_ inject itself into. _",
9 MR. BANKS: Why don't we confar with her at the
' I
<*-r. *
- recess.
i s*- 4 [ CIIAIRMTR SILLER:
. Yoc.
Ccnfor with Councel. ir x e ( v)' .. 2 k And uhile it can be done in a sence of being i
\
cooperati to and c5 a sort of courtesy on the other hand it's s to not a matter that the 3ca'd r feels it should inject itself into. 4 4
'. It ,F
. ,1 Mr. Rosolie*?
'.7 ij CROSS-2X.V.ItiATIOtt (Continued)
)
i
, ic }l BY MR. RCSOLI2: l ll+ !! -
U [- 0 out of the 20 design deficiencies, which ones
. U '
. E !! are still being worked on, coing bach to the L2Rc, now.
i 2! MR. DANKS: Again, Mr. Chairman, p .ticulcrly
'Z'h after the record has been clearsd up, I 'rcule,cbject going l d
C i! into any of'thosa deficiencies i at dr act calata t.: 9.1 4
*A is structura ihaelf as being outside the scapa c.
inc present. l
-(\ ,
n '(+ j .5 g proceeding. r 4 f i I.
- . 1
r 1937 1 . N 4 3 :; 2
\
p: ; mpb5 66 CHAIRMAN MILLER: Yas. P- 4 2 ;{ I believe that is so, Mr. accolio.
.1 .-
j, 3 ~ .' Hold it just a coment. . P i !' ,
/ '
(The Deard cenferring.) 1'
; 3 There ic ono r. attar thc3 ths 20crd uny inclira i
)
e, 6d into that relatos to tha au::iliary h2at pu:g, acr.a problen 1
- : 1 7 9 that davsloped or possibly developsd with reference to the a
4 .
. , 0 !. auxiliary heat pump.
~ .__ - , _ _ . .
4 , l _l 3j So therefore,' Mr. Rosclie, we itculd let you go 3
- i. 4 I
! ;n P into that. i i
i i
,) . DR. MC COLLCM: Enich one of thoco was it? I i ';' think you identified this nern.Hg ena t. tera you had cn at::il-
',f@. i, t n i;n iary heat pump that did not start auterr.tically. [U fj 14 'l WITNESS WITHERS: 1.3 had coms pr0 Slam Carlise h t3I t with the auxiliary feedwater pumps. Those h vs baan j ; ; ', ' corrected. Thosa problems are no longer outstcnding.
,y DR. MC COLLOM: Okay.
~
q e .-<.; CHAIR!G.N MILLER: Wall *. with that chata of the o
*t
{. . - g }; record, unless you have sor.ething that's going to h aur upcn ti it , t y, ,; that, I beliove. that vcu?.d, then, give you the inforr.ation.
, ;. l But we're ncs cutting ycu off on tha: Scint
;2 . beccusa that night be gona inte by thea Sc:rd.
', )
MR. ROSCLII: Chay.
*r .
LY MR. RCSCLII:: p' , ? 5, ,
. ..e- , O A uoint of clarific:, tion ,n that:
\ -
i' 1 4 - N gweye-w '.
- wee,w h=.- e mwg .4w-own.ee- ,%,.* . + , .
i
-,,,#,y. __e. ,p,
.,,,m. , , > - , - -
4 a .1938 i I O r i mpb6 I i Does that involve what is known as the DBA
!- A
'sequencers? f, t '
e \ I A (Witness Withers) That is a separate item 4 es
". e,{
It t
" ': from tho auxilicr/ feodwater ptmpu a ,
eH "b We have done a ntr.ber of LERa initiated cs a ' r.
.r
' ' ;, result of prcblems with the DBA scquencers.
Choce problems 7ftoohavebeencorrectedpriortothispoint. - C( - CllAIRMAN 11 ILLER: Does that cover the point youI 1 ~~~~0' [ had in mind; !!r. Rosolie? ~ J 1 M (.! MR. ROSOLIE: Yes. ! l CIIAIRMAN liILLER: All right. I
"- Insofar as the Board has any questions about it, !
K'- . ., t ' i
/
)
w ', those two matters probably vill be gone into at the cenclusion
- t. . :
'84t h of cross. He want to clert you to the issue so that you would 15 g have the opportunity if you wish at this timo.
'l
? MR. ROSOLIE All right.
I
!. BY MR. ROSOLIE:
i3 y Q Now earlier you mentioned about the LERs up inte ;
' 1 '
. '. ? b May, which is -- l!ay was the one concerning the control build- l
! l
' 1 00 !!ling.
4 14 . J'd I My questien now is to the inst LER in those b TI interrogatorias which I believe is dated "Evenh Date: June 22, ft 1.3 tl 1978; Raport Date: July 21, 1070'. 0
.. ?.4 A (Witness Frewing) The panel -- che encuss me. l l
Os g
. '5 " Itere it 13.
\
S L f d ._ _ . . . _ _ . ._ -. - 4 diWr.M"F '"Du'%'D'4D.9.*
- 95 t emed "W N' *W4D98'w+9'***
',^^4y.
, . - " * * * "
- _' ..,_>..w_s.
...:.. --: - . : ~. _ = .=. . :- :
. ..a: :.= - == = -- :.= - -
.=-
/
BT
~ 1939'
}-
1 C~' mpb7 2d Can you read those dates again, please, Mr. l -l .
~
'll Rocolia?
- a f
7da O' The event date is June 22, 1978, and the report s
- j u Y
ents is 7uly 21, 19"0. 3 'i It should ha tho inst onc.
. ,. P
*? A Yes, we have those.
*. y
>t
- m. ;) CHAIR!?.11 MILLER: And your question is?
--J --
' C y:)n .
BY MR. ROSOLIE4 .. . , _ __, i i. i 1.5 0 Does this affect the safe operation of the i n N lI Trojan'Iluclear Pcwer Plant?. .
,- A (Mitness 3rcehl) It could have.
Q In what wr.y? 4 I .
! .x) :: 4 A In the event of a design basis accident the desigt
'A !! ad stress of the pipe is somewhat ex::ccded with tha grouted M penetrations. This Licensing Event Report identifies those u
+ ' penetrations that are a potential distress a.nd we hava correc-
, 9 i
. d tive action underway to correct the situation.
i, ay The grout is being removad. S ^ O So cor:: active action in going on acw? G a]' ,
, 20 j{ A Yes.
j- .r. 1 CHAIM!A21 trill 3R Well,tihen vil". auch c0rrac-j- ..
! tive action be completed?
l 11 13 ;, U CTESS 32C2HL: I' Nill be cc.g if:Ed before li
- m 2 i 'l'g startup.
- ,4 1:,
t t J.l; - [. CHAIR!Oli MILLER: "Tery well. F 0r. l . .
. . . , , , , ~ ~ , . , . . . . . , . - _ , _ , , _ .._. -
u' i-t-p, r-.- y e,-g +.y r- pw g--e r-m-7 *e+-------- - m m- -- m w 'e-&w-e e
. .._ . ~ _ . . .
] s 1940-1 I
, g3s, mpb : ] DR., PA%TO!!: Is it, fair to ask what pipe is 2
. being discussed?
i , 3 WITITESS BRCE!!L: Th3rs are several pipes involved /
! 4d Would you like to help with that?
5 ,l WITNESS CHRISTEli3EM: I believe it's Enhibit 3 j ' ** l .' I 6 tihich ' lists the particular pipss that 'ta cre mcking -- and 2
.) -.
- l;.
7h the modifications that we're making to the pipa to ensure that t 8: a f
; , C{ it fits below the code allowchles, m . _. L . . _ _ . _ . _ . . _ , . . . .,_ .
U l-- MR. DAIIKS: Can you tell him on Enhibit 3 which
'l 10!! of ths items'it is?
i! 'i t-WIT'iESS CHRISTEii331: r All right.
; ?. E::hibit 3, anything that is titled EEC Munhar i5'h 780G3.- There are jcbs listed, jcbs two through sixteen. They i .'
R. g are each of the enes that we are making modifications to.
. y.n. DR. PAXTOM: Thank <'au.
l M f. CHAIRMAN MILLER: Mr. Rosolie? t i 4
.. DY MR. ROSOLIE:
, 3f, ,
O I guess I don't u7darstand. tg You said everything that's at:cbered 70-063 is t
". ;c related to this LER, is. that correct?'
4
,; A (Witness Christensaa) bhatiscorroct. .
i
)
, ; O Chay,
,;, i,; :
J' !
,a l Than let's 1cok at job nurbar tt:.
- i {
,i (
...., e New in the LER I believe ic rays scrz.athing gj g.haboutgroutingsurroundingthepipewasrenc'taf.,andinjob N / )
l' N e
.I .
f
. .~. , , , . . . . _ . - ._ . . . _ . . _ _ _ __ i
_ __ _ _--- l
~ . - , _ . ..-. . .-..
l l b 1941 I ' 5 :-
;,, 1 u 1 N I' I d ' number two it says " removal of one seisI: tic anchor".
mpb8' l I
\ ..
J O I I NC 0d I don't understand the relationship therc. '. l
- n. . . i, 1 1
1 3' A Let me e:glain something, i I
;. e 1 I
i This LER has bran cinca scust6at modified and a ,I I l ?.c new one submitted. I think as we e:@lainof.'.7 hat the 3itua- i
- i. 1 I 3 {, tion is en this -- ,
1 . A (Witness Brochl) Let me surmarico what has ; j 7 ':it e ! 1l i
'3 j. happened hora.
r.. __- ,F _ _ . . _ _ 9.3 We identified the problem that ic in thic " ils !
.1ll Licensing Event Ropert and that causod us to maha . dattiled l j
'I
; h survey of the potential prcblem and 7hethar i'. ta-l anist in ,
d l u ,' other systems in the plant. A cu- 727 ed al'. cd tha affacted .i
- ! l Tj 13 is systems has been completed, and all of the acncenfericances i' e i ,
V ;4 [ related to this type of problem have been idtentified. 1 i , And the identification of t*:e corrective action f 15 [l . 13 [ is noted in the RDC 78-063. That is the total work that is - l 4
, ,2 l found to be necessary au a result of the identification- of the
;3 j{ initial deficiency. i
'. I i t
t 3! l O And are all theca RDCs that ara numbered 73-0 53 i 6, .
- a. w fi Lens? s '
. 1.
.. O A Mo ,,
{ f c ;i ' A (Miboss Chrictansa:1)
- g ., O *'hich ones ara?
3 ,;} . A (Witness Drcohl) Eall t'uy f ra all relu.:ad io
.t' s
;: the LER.
+
The LEn has been supplamented tc .iafine tha tact of Q-u . U, N
'l iw--, - w - .e _
- - -, a- . , -
.. =. _ - . __ - . ...
.. - .. ~ . . - - - - ~ .
i .I 1942 mpb 1 1 the. work. (mI
%).' "
, 0 Do you have a copy of that supplement?
j 3[ . A No. . I I 4 , Q Can you provide me with a copy of thct cvpple-o I
- f ment.
'). 4 ,5 j-[ A I think tho information tnat's in that ic pro-
?!t ,
vidad to you in RDC 78-063. That's far more detailed than
,. O' tha LER Supplement.
- . . - - - - . - ~ -
g !i . 'O Well, I thought you just told ma that thers are a n 1 / 10 'l ,
- hings in hers that are not LER3
;; MR. BAITKS: We'd be happy to cupply I'r. Rosolie .
t,q , with the supplement. I'c doscn't happan to be hera right now 't (' g3 ; but we have it down here in Salem and we:d be happy to make a
%v :
p, j copy of it and supply it to him.
. g CIIAIRlWI MILLER: All right.
i - 3 /, You'll get a copy, Iir. Rosolie.
'i
- l MR. KAFOURY: Excuce mo, Mr. Chairman.
t -
- l ,
g Would Mr. Rosolic be allowed to uses it for a tg questioning out o'f order if it is supplied after his time for cross-examination is completed? o gg l CIIAIRlWI MI'IER: If it roletes to matters that
. ,, e are otherwise available, yes.
- . ~
.O 3 MR. KA7CURY: Thank you.
; !G. SANKS: And I assuma also if it has material
[j /
\
T
- ~f w.
that isn't already covered on Exhihit 3 which he now has. p, . l' - . - - . - - . . .. - _ - .- .
.ep,g m +n=- '
*a arg e mep W. nm%M e Wg-h idips -- h wg-t 4w y-n==
___ _ ... .. - j 1943 i :j [y) , mp>10 .l CHAIRMAN MILLER: Yes. i Gi ^-- 2 ;l it - l n our information so far is that the e:dtibit before i h I 1 O
- t. . . him is more detailed. Howevar if it turns out thab thel.e are.
t it . J -
.other matterc then ho till be giv?n cn ep?c:$ ritf.
C' , MR. GRYi: 2ncesc me. , j l i
- 0. ;; If it night sava tims -- 1 l
CHAIRMAN HILLER: Yac.
; 7f]q . .. G h.,.
MR. GRAY: - . I believe I do ha're a copy of that ,
\
~"
2 y which I had gotten oth3rwisa. i' 10 q1i CHAIRMAIT MILLER: Lonn 11:. -- il
./ liR. GRYl: I could loan it e.nd hm 1 it replaced. l 1
t
, 1 Mr.-Banks, why -- l MS t v4 *!.i
.d 21R. - DAIES : It looks like someone fren our staff s .
t'V A
- t 4
N is on their way to get it too. y 1 Mh CHAIRMAN MILLER: Fine.
'. i h Proceed, Mr. Rosolie. You may have it in your
;y 0 hands sooner than you expect.
I', i
- .-.' HR. RCSCLIE: "' hank you.
l
> 9 si. .
.s ji BY 11R. ROSDLIE:
! e. .
Oc 0 traat is -- in job atrho'r tc:c, uhe.1 is tha rancen 1 , l 2: , for the removal of one scisrJ c :nchcr? i 1 - A (Witness O.rister.sen) Th-2 y -4 ~< -~ cars in s
;. - p int is that 12 ycu Ento ?i pe going SeTnen m:c,.:ty crchcre r.*
and there is a restrain. in bebman that is not nudsd, than p t ,, ..
~
to -- undar a design condition for thanntl,::ciscia and ci .
\ f
- ?.
I d - . . _ . . . . . _
.w y- y ww --w--
^ ~ ^ ^
- . - --. J :-.. . -- c=
'I 1944 fg mp. ill . 1 - other forces, that you will remove the restraint which further I !
1
; s 7. restricts that movement and keeps the stresses below the code i n ,. I n ,
1 3 ll allowables, j 1, i 4j What has happened is that by having a grouted . 3 , e
,l
- d. t 5 jj penetraticn.whore it wasn't supposed to be we essenticily l i
t - ,
< 5L't added another anchor point to the pipo. So wa're just re-
'.' I c
j = 7 i,' moving one thct is of a different nature, a steci anchor, and , t
. Oy the pipe rimains within the stresses, the code allewable j
. , - . ... s. - . . - -. . - s N stresses. d l 20i O You'ra removing cne anchor and raplacing it with , i
; e ;- another one in a differant place?
, A I would say that vculd he the and us.sult of what 4 .
3 has happened, yes, i M li u j Q Can you show me on this t;here that is being dene? s el I g3 l L Is that with a separate job numbor? J 6 ,
)
A I'm sorry, which number ere you talking chout? ' i i ', t gl 0 I'm talking about job two.
- ,4 {l You're saying that you're removing one seismic i
}* gg anchor. I believe I heard you say that you're removing it 2,; from one place, but you'ra putting another one receplace else.
s
- 4 e-
- I A Mo, no. What I said was that the result of h
r
,; {l having a piping penetrabian with grout in it at one location
, i e.- l that ce can remova, that results in actine.r lika 2. nnchor.
I y So in analycing the pipe us find that by rer.cv-AU 'ing another anchor we arc casantially clicuing ths pipe to act
'k '
e I I
't
., 6-
.,qn eg.-,,ew.e e se-. . 4 w w - +- ---.W- ~** wow-*' - -~*" *-
r- <'-y-g y wr -- 4
a b i 7945 f . -mpb12 1 in the manner 'it's supposed to under the design conditions j- ? 'O and keep it within the code allowables. If we left that 4 a 3I anchor in thera than that would have been a f..rth2r r2ctraint i I .
,r y )
4t and would not have al'. owed it to me n undcr decica conc.itions, (. j! which would then have had .:c cwhat of a pescih'.: over trocs j d
~
ei 1
- t . on this.
72 Q Okay. , d ,.. What is the status of jobs nu:aber 3 and 4? t r j l
-i,. .- . . ~ .
-, 4 .s .._ ... _ . _
j f i -- A - okay. i
- O ' In this particular case uhare you as that it rays-i l .
that ' thera cre two U-bolts--this is the came es job 2 in a i sense--when you put tro U-bolts en c pipa you ?.ra r-Qing it 3
. . . s c h3 as an anchor. i l_s f(h So what ws're doing is locscning tha t*ro U-hcits i, and making it as it is,a guido so that the pipe is free to
- 3 -
i s [ move. And in doing so we again -- we find thct the pipe under I s
,, y the design conditions is within the code allcwablar. Eefere y l it was an anchor point with tho two U-bcits tight ned. i s
a gg q. MR. BANKS: I think he asked you '? hat's the n . 2;) ll status of it. '
, O .
'I 21 ll t WITNESS C:RISTEUSEt:1 Ch, the' status of it? l 22 '..! Tha status of it. It hcs a --
- n I' p v. -
L
'a
;; UI'DIESS 3ECZEL: It's in ihn procsss. -
' J o.
ij 1:~ TMESS ClICSTEUSEU: It's in the prec2 s. It ym . . n q
.ad !!ADELCNr .u e Hi. has not been cor.pleted yst. ?
'F.3LCOM -
ti -* s f1ws ji .
- i
+ , .. ...
1
-a
- . -. -.. .-.. ~ ..
WRBLoom i; i 1946 . f1ws ' I MADELOti-a[ i 3C agbl- 1l', BY un. nascLIE: x > N _:/J 2
.{
t Q It will be checked and adjustments made as necessag l 3 ' ( 1 that's what it says, t
/. , .
a .
, p I guacs ray q .zatici. i.:, he.s 1': .x.cn cP.cck:c and
= :;
3 has it been found that adjustmants are need:C.7 i I g 3 ;l' I (. 1 A (U4.tness Chrictenscn) W hav2 nch cc:t. plated the i, job yet. l l
~ 3 A (Witness Broehle) I think I'mantioned earlier a
- l that all this work is in the process of bcing cor.pleted,
" I 1
and it will be completed prior to plc.nt startup, that's ta: !
- o. l l i
,I status of all these jobs.
i : I l 4 . .. ,,l .
! Cll '~ j Q Including c0ntinual utnuing?
[n) N 3 j *e l' ! l i A These are work items. ! (f I l CHAIRMAU MILLER: What's the question? l l i5 BY MR. ROSOLIE:
! M Q My question is, in jobs 3 and 4, it states at the I
a
!l and that:
o, .' [ "The heat removal system will be 4 8 -
)
U' checked and adjustments will be made, if
' li
' - p. -
t
'20 L necessary." . i 41-Are you ctill checking it, has it b$:n. chsc.< d?
If M If'it has been checked, is 'it tha ,m::chlam cr net?
'23 i A. *';;itness 3rcehic)
, T=2 :ork item ia tc t-
,W 24 ' check the. clearance between ths brachet and the pipe and. if '
- y .~\ . , '
26 (x there is insufficient cicarance, the cl arc.nce will be pin ad l i _ _ . ._.. , . _ . _ LP yd t*' T At =l@he.s. p W " f a'PhpMgMM' i
- maggy 4 ge at - '*M.ch,. ia MrbWe* #E4 *me m 4-s a
_ -.m . -T
. . , . _ _ .u,_ . _ . . _
1947 5i O( %.)' . s agb2 in theret, the lock nuts will be tightened and that's the
, 2 .i.
l 9 job, that's the item'of w rk. It's not a perpetual checking. I 3 ': 5' . e Q llow was the survey done to d.etericine these
, h t t. '
problems?
# f :i 1 '
A (Uitnaas Christensan) Pacple want into tho field 3
, , :' , , and chscked the piping penetrations through walls and detar-sn 3, mined if the pipes had been grouted or if they were ungroutod. ~
ep
~
Q ""Do they go around and check all the grouting? =
- n. .
- s :!
t' A They checked approximately 700 "I" cells in tne -- r well, they checked all of Class 2 and 3 safchy syshe.?.c.
'31 Q And I assume they checked Clc.sc 1, too didn't l .e.
) i thay?
./e 5
.- a
.o e
'j\ fj A They.did check Class 1 also. They didn't l t.
*a ti aeed to check all of Class 1-because of the fact that it
.c
. i j is in containment and tne piping penetrations are not grocted, s 1G 't
- 4. Q So the Class 1 safety systema are just all in h
m :.
'l the containmant vossel?
h
'S P ;, y A Esssatially, yas. Anything outside they did i 19 'h i,
- L l check. '
e Ic H . y A (Witness Broehle) All Class 1.- 2,, 3 cyctens
, outside the containnent were chackad.
Q And I assuna plant personnal did that <ncling?
~'
A No, 1. hey wr; principally .:nsin. .::::c "rt M:
.t
'$ j
- p. f Portland office, cssisted by Sachte1. i
-(~ , _ ,,
e A (witnocs Christ =nsan) Eschtal :.nd ci'. ida 4 l
.O .
b - _. _
=.- ; a-.- =: . . - . . - . , -.
I i 1948 4 d I i 11 (v - agb3 consultants.
.- )5 2 f
0 Now, am I correct in assuming that thess wars all m r ~! design errors? t P A I think a princip. ' prebica csocciated %ra .123 i (
- l 3r <
actually a constructicn installation arror. It hac to do with l .- I 5 the bond breaker that uns applied to the pipe before the
~
grouting material was placed. The bond breaker that.was used 1 l
. 3
_ was.e4+har ineffec+Ava nr i m a11 cases,._not used. _ . . _ . . And what we found here were instances where we l
.n could not varify that thera uas sufficient freedom of move-ment, actually, in that groub to assure that the thing was not m'"
acting as a rastraint. So, to pr2clude that pcc2itility, I (u l i A s"a we are removing the grout and replacing with comathing where ' it can move. Q Should that problem have been picked up in !
!5 the quality assurance program? I i
t
* - ~ ~ = = = . ~ ,
'7 A In should have been. .
'. 10 Q Why wasn't i+?
tt - ' g *. .b j A The specifications for review of that particular 5
; e i s
i i e D inem were not that clear, and the inspection en it was, say,
] l
" by ommssion, was not clearly identified as a ccatrol iteu. ,
; Q Do you knew of anything else, er ani ether speci-i U fications that are not claar ban: eculd .ffe.:, ; 'c .:w ,
. t
* , quality assuranca?
L . ! Q. m ' A tio, I do not.
* = = =
- _oe me.u., we,e-er....-*,e..
se4ept w ~ e.
%. ee% , em .. . ~w=n- -
.=seegg y , . ,.%. %%
_ _ . ._ m . _. _ . _ r
+
.. 1949
- b. . .
a
.$ I
., j
~. . ~.,
.i agb4 Q w it possible thay soms exist?
vl. ,e.. - . A It's. possible. j i .. . , . 1 4 . I
-c .' MR. EANKS: Mr. Chcirnan, I think that;a beyond l
'a
. . ! n g .,...a g .,, . g 4.
* * ..t.,
- 6. ..
, 9. a . m. ,; y. ,. .t %' . r
....';,, e 1
.g, e f5 C.tLP Es.P.2.m* D STL'S**i* m *9 9
..e .it. a,,. .93
. ..'.,..?..'.
. .2 .!...
3 2
. . +
2.. .*?
. .. i 1
. s
, C Counscl..
J. .
.,. n' 4f BY MR. ROSOLIE:
. d 4
,I Q Coul.d one of you.gantle.nsn enplain_.th_a differenca to f)
. betwee.n a technical specification and FA3n?
.n
~
.. . A (Witnoss "rochl:) The Trcj tn oper .iir.g 1;.cana-2 F , . .
L includes,as a part cf it, the technical specificc.clona wnich
.... i.
_ .s 61 gover: .hs-oparatien of the plc.nt. The F3An is a Finni e s (a, { Safety Analysis Report. It's part of the documents e3ad to n ' le, u r describe the plant to the URC for the licanting prcccco. v (j The FSAR is referenced in tho'tachnical specifications in fd 84 P several. places. 9
' 3 Q What do the technico.1 c p cificnticns c;.2 as to
+,Ia
* " oe the oparation of the plant c.t a tima'When that pl r.t does s .., . 0, s.
t- . not meet the CBE7
,. .s P. $
. A Thara is no dirac% referencs in La ' M n ic.1 .
E apecifice.tions to tha C22 undcr the scismic c:. m d :f.ica. . gr.#t t .a It simply raf.-rences tac TS?J.. It-p.
/w. O~ *.e,
- a m-. ., .. .,g*.
- n . . . . ..7.h.
. b. ..9 ,..- .
i.g~.3...ye
. .=.J u i., , ; e . . . . . . . .
e e . ' [ . # ,(, Section you're roading fr0m? DI
"~ '
~
n -., ,
. .J '
O ., c .4~.vi.,.
,. s y . . ..4*.
.s .,3
. . .. ~. . . . .
. . ., n - ~. . .
.J...... -.
f. 1 a
-'.yn.9 + . QuMg e8.' **egs-phe_ * . i sygM E P -W.eg.
q " = h owg Dw .44vt. *4%e.wr-e- 6-
, .. . ,. vn,,, , . ,
-- . . . - - m. , . .
_. 1 e 1950 i i 1 t 1 y 1 i 1 (O N .x;) ' agb5 a.
'O And does it say that the plant is to be operated
] in accordanca with the AFSAR.under that section? . Y t
^ y A- Will you repeat ti -?
l
.q [ l Q .In that Section 3.71 dcas it ::t;.ta that ths l ?
- l. .-
ua
- f. plant should be operated in accordc.t.ca with tho ArSAR?
I ' o ,
! a. 1 A Ho, it says it shall bc designce. t.nd maintained i
t r
- 4 ,l I
].totheprovisionscontainedin.Saction3.7cfthePGAR.
3 < . 3 t!
-Q- And.3.7 of the AFSAR, .I b,elisva, etates that tua -
g3 . . . _ . . _ . . . .. . . _ i OBE should be 0.15? ' 10h i d A That's corrcct. n
.. p
;l *4111 you turn to Exhibit sin?
Q . n 1, . 9 en ea. li MR. BAtutS: That's the LER. D 13 Q BY MR. ROSOLIE: 14 l Q If yov. go to the LEAR, which is the second page N of that exhibit, I believe -- 18 ts d lj CHAIRMAN MILLER: What? What are you raferring to,
- j. . !!
llf Mr. Rosolie? .; ,' t e' H il MR. ROSOLIE: Exhibit Number Sin. e 0 . n d f. i DR. MC COLLOM: Of whom?
- s. ! ,
9
' * ") 3 dit f MR.'ROSOLIE: Of PGE. ,
I
.. y
~~
h MR. 3A!!.XS : It chculd So a i nter dated 'irl 3, F e- a .
~ jj 1978, with the L2R that's involved hara c.ttr.ched.
,, a
;E rS LI2: Dr. Sa: ten ha.3 ..t.
- n. .
BY MR. ROSOLIE: i !.
../ -, 4
O
\ 1 Q Ca.n you tell 22 '.Iny, :.n the LIE'. -- in las LIR, 4
4 I' 9 t - - 6 '8W . .e
- 4 ulhial,a rk pg.a g, 9 , , _ , _
, _ - . , , ..s ._w._- . , , , - -
l
. .' 1951 v ] .
l 7 i
,fx N :
(s }) agb6 1[s ~ under the event descri.ption and probabla consequences, i V ",, i
. 2I 8
! ',1 next to the last sentence in Line Six, .6 states: !l
]- ., e 1 .l J . .
l A $l "No technical specifications . t 1 l
? If i il viole.tod."
y ,
.3 .
l [ ~ '! , A (Witness Brochl ) Un vicu the tochr.ics.1 spaci- ' n
- 3d ' l
,, jj fication in this casa as mccning the safe shutdown earthquake !
. v:
criteria. This is the highest level of criterion, the one ' l
~ .
i, which.we view as being.tne limiting condition. _ , . l 0 0 Q You just told ma prsviously than the technical
*t V4
.j specification 5.71 says than the plcnt is to be cpor'.42d
. 'l l
' ' !! And in 'd10.t section of the 75An ,
... d 'according to FSAn 3.7.
it states that the 033 chotid be 1.5.
,/ giN e -J
~
l;I ls A I believe what I said was -- ts -
.y t l U.
, , Q. Q -- 0.15. .
. . , - i 2
- A -- that the plant was to be designed and main-s .
t tained in accordance with the 73AR.
'S I said nothing chout E
4 i c ..
" ::b operation.
r
*- '5 d Q What is your interpretctica of naintain?
I e .f.
; l- ,
'- E .1 9
A. That the plant will be safe undar all conditions.
~
,. : Q And' cll conditions incluf.cs cycraticn, e.'.cean't u,
e ss
'- it?
g Ot A Correct. 4 ; 2 a 225c~:in:', onen v ;+1.o
- . 2:2.L:: .1 : D::=: sr U.: .
', .. ~
<w ,
I notica that Mr. Withcra przp ced the cc n r 1.?.ttsr. A.. +~
\ O .' believa a G.A. Si marman prepared tas LU"..
=x d
. t,
, .1 e.m
--- W
1 2 i 1952 tfy 1-l j , agb7 ! Who prepared the ne:st document, which is entitled, Ay. 2 I
! " Reportable 00currenca," and it consists of four pages?
3- .
^ A (Witncss Frewing) The people in my organisation,
(
- 3. ' .
i
- i including ht:. G.A. Zi:n.icrm:.n, prap4.ral rhat m ..::,.::.al. It j 3i ,
' , , i included input from peopic in Mr. Christ astn's orp.nication j
G} and Mr. Withers' organization. i
,, d } ,
. 7! l u And who approved it? ll
' 8 ..
~_ A ,i. ..It was: reviewed by .the Plant Revic',L. Board, ',
i 9
, which is a plant safety committee of PGE, and also reviewed t .
10 i ! l by the Nuclear Operations Ucard, a cc:cpuy-wide safety ', 11 : I
! committee of PGE and approved by both, prior to being 12
,s transmitted by Mr. Withers.
N {
< .. a- . ,
Q Did they approve it:. .uithers' cover letter in j w - the LER, or just the third pieco there, the Reportable ! t 15 : Occurrence? [. 15 8 l A I think they simply approved the several pagca > i l ' headed, Reportable Occurrenca. But it WEs the basia for i
.g i
taking material and filling out the LER forra, and the nasis 19 i for Mr. Withers' transmittal. e
. -Q Sok 'in other words, the Raportablo Occurrenca I 2 '
came first and than tac LER was filled out, and tnan SIR. l "i Withers' lettar iras made and it was sent to th-2 ,IL2, in I
'" ; that the pro ssa?
A YC3. N:t rauch time actween those. m - Iq i -. ( end3C '"! l 9 l I l' ., . . ,
% W 41m *= ==% eeihssyp4 '
4 e o g 44 4. (e s 4,9 4 p m . , ,
- - ,__., , -,.y $pp
.:.- a.. - ..x: -
!y .
. 1953 l
\+ \
. '[ {
(
'5 )
3d ebl 1 i. i CHAIRMAN !! ILLER: Are'you about through, !'
' l 2 )t Mr. Rosolie? I
.i
- ~t MR. ROSOLIE: I hava.several more questions. ?
b. 4 c12 37 MR. T.0SCT::: 5 it
- fi Q New ict ma sce if I t'r.doratani ycur ccmpany 's h
3 '; position in this matter. ; e-t 7 p(a First of all, according to FG2, Trojan does maat a :
..4 6
_ _ ;)
*O the SSE of .2._5; correct? i
. . _ _ . _ _ . .- x
. I 3 .? .
A (Witness Droshl) Correct. U.' N It has an 03E of .117 ' O *
'l 4 A Correct.
M b
'O i O The plant chculd operate dus to conserve.tism built !
l l[) N g% O Pl .. into the plant. 4 14 l;* A The plant should operate because it meets the i
'S !\ safe shutdown earthquake. It meets the safe shutdown earth- -
- ! J quake criteria, I should say, as stated in ths FSAR. l M {$. :
P.j! O A few minutes ago ue went through the technical .
- i '
.. 6 ;, s specifications and it said that the plant should be r.cintained-t e '
C :,t in ac'cordance withi the FSAR which stat 2d tha 035 should he
> .i: t r .
22 C '
- 1.5. That's not correct?
d - li .
.:. :$ A No, .15.
2?. sf O OSE?
;l l'i . A Yes.
1
/- 3.? f G. So how can y:n operr.te the ple:it when you're in
/"N :t T;T , ' Violation of a technical pacification?
l,' e 1
*e- hW8EM-' 9-g6945 F ' r rt@.1f 'ht*- M. 4.eyge4W 4
- z u u, .:- = . . -
i : ..
~
.. :._._ ~ -
- j '1954'l
- I 4
'l l' i .
Th fd eb2 '12! f A The FSAR says many things about the plant and . 1 7 2 included in that is an OBE criteria. We view that criteria ' a , Si , as being a criteria for shutting the plant down and making a . i -l ' i !. thorough inapaction of the entiro plant prior to rectarting i e d" f
$lf it 'in the event of a severe carthquake. j io !'
t j i 3h. The plant is designed to withstand a cuch mors i
=
severe earthquaka than that .OBE, and that is the safety,
,' /i e
) basis-of the plant. It is really the SSE. Sinca we do not 4 L
1 9i meet the'OBE of .15, what we proposo in the Lice 2 Evcnt 1 M; . Report for interim operaticn is c araticn at lla until auch Ml ' time as we restore the plant to the capability of .15 CBE. l
; That does not say that the plant is unsafe. It- * -/
KN ' i 13i says that the plant cannot operate at those higher levels
.b i, yl during this interim period. The safe shutdown earthquake is 15 . a-safety criteria and we do meet that. Therefore, we view the plant is safe, 13l d
27 j Q Well, in your opinion then, what is the purpose
+ 13 I of the CBE criterion?
.. 1 .
19 i A. It's a level at which you can operate to without r, ;
- l 20 l having to shut the plant down and meka a thorough, dstniled j t !
:1 j 8.nvestigation-for damage. It's an'operatione.1 limit,:ot : ,
- - ". Infety limit. _ 4 23 'I O And in tha 75A2 it stata that the OEI 1:: to h2
.- 24 E 'l.i - .15. With all' the::e abbreviatiens and pcints I'n '
g 35 :.. getting rd::ad up h2re. 3 il t . I= .
. . , ~ . . . - - ,.. - ~ . - . .
- a prA.hg=
New ,'am hai -AM-e 4 er
,i i 1955 l
- r. .-
i {. 1 kO 4 T 1 eb3 II 1 However, what you're telling ma is that your l' 1 {%d ., h 3-t company's position is that that doesn't matter beenusa the 1-1.,,. , {
.. 1 . .
2 ts; elant meets the SSE of .25.
- Is that not correct? ?
A It'c another ecy of stching it, ras. "M. I'm 0 .] j U f; stating is that since we do net meet the operational limit ; i 't' ~t
!, ,- i 1 of .15g, we would propose to shut the plant dcwn at the limit { ,
s . We do meet 7h wr2 do meet, and make that' detailed inspection. ,
- S I; i _
the-.llg.
-. _ It.is in a sense setting a lower limit at which
.d 3P fou would shut down and in::pect, which was appropriate since . .
l I! I N? We don't meet that higher' limit. 1
-1 - - 4 U .i.1I DR. MC COLLOM: Could I ash a que.3tien here? ?
4, i l'.! ; MR. RCSOLIE: Yes, Dr. M 0:1.:.cr.. I. 1
'3 i DR. MC COLLOM: Considering that we hava a plant A u it is that is now designed and built and is in a certain condition, l
i
'5il in your opinion which is the safar way to operate if you have u.;
M$ interim operation, to shut do m if you have an 03E greater L ! 1 t i 17 i than .11 or to shut down if you hata an CBE greater than rit IG $ .15 and do the inspection? Which is the safer
- procedure? j r.
. i 19 ,ll WITNESS BRCEHL: The safer procedura is to shut j
"* 3 '
. CO y down at .11. This of course is why t'e pro' posed it. ,
T i', I might add, Dr. McCollcm, that t.is is not in- I TO j,' consistent with cther parts of the technical pacificatic:.s. t 20 ,t In many ef Sc systt.r.s we h:v.1 :-ortting li.~ iia u al?. n.: 4 c I4[ safety limits, and where the partii: lar plant citac.tien
*) :
it q 3 -}e warrants it, those opar'ating li. tits, the rules lithir. th; eh < M y. I b*
.. - _ . . ~
=.. - . . - . . u;a - -
l
.t I
!! . 1956 l 1
t-g- ab4 1 technical specifications that those operating limits be re- -i V)x 2[
\
duced temporarily because of out-of-spec ~or out-of-compliance
\
I
} 3 conditions until you can bring the plant back into full j j,^ ,
i o il; compliance. l 1 50.;' And what we are proposing here in n,t r elly in- l e
,! consisf.ent with that philosophy.
S {1 7 DR. MC COLLOM: Thank ycu. 4
*- O CHAIRMAN MILLER: Mr. Resolio.
, i
. n.+ -~v..
l -- l 9 1l . BY MR. ROSOLIS: -
,t s
1
- g. Q Let me see if I understcnd this philcacphy. !
nk It's my understanding the purposa of the 03E is N
;, to shut down the plant and make cn inspection and then make '
i. gq sure nothing has gone wrong, and then restart the plant. ; ( ]t i t l
; f., h, Tha purpose.of this is to assure that it vould be a more a
et
$g ,i st'ringent, you might say safety system because it would re-15 j' qu're you to check the plant out before it re: chad the SSE g wh..ch is higher than an OBE. That's the purpecc cf an OBE, jaa't it?
.G i!,
I
.., lj A (fditness Brechl) Sometimes I wonder what the real i
8-C, l- purpose of the OBE is. My personal beliof on ths OBE, and I m.. do believe that it is a prudent type of limitaticn to have ii
,, U on the plant, is the.t since the picnt cannot ha heated for
-nn
,, .e j!g an SSE and the SSE of course is navor c':pected to reallt/
t. y { oc:ur during the life of the plant, at scms level achablished
' G. /
3 be:.ow that 'at which you are still quita certain that nothing b
- , j ' Wgggup g- j-W m .pp.gh,ge g r4&E .g pm pws, e
- W W ew> Me** ..sw.*W- '*esu.gs-mai.au.,
5 x a. . # %.~.. .-4
~
i+- 7 i'l ~ - - - h, . '.1957 t.. i.
?! .
.1
!L l! -is going to happen but yet the level of earthquake is suffi-
((N[)' . eb5
~~
3h d cient to warrant a prudent operator to take a good look at-i j
!~
fj . t j 2 !>j. that plant, you have'a requirement for shutdown and a thorough. 1 jr . I I 4h inspection.
'i .: , 3 ;a; And this is just -- wall, good senco. And this <
J 3 N: is what the limit is set there for, e.nd it's agracd upcn with
.i lj the NRC at a point at which we Will shut d0un and inspect thatj 0 plant. And it is set well below the 'dosign limit that the -}
+ ,
-,o .
- a. mm - i
, . .I ; criterion for the severe natural phonemenon is based on.- !
I I i i
- 0 ?
i That's really what it anounts to in my vive. ! 1' ) DR. PA% TON:- Is.it not true thtt tha gansral
' 4 ;
1; i i format of technical soecifications involves both cn crerating j 3 limit and a safety limit? -l I've had the impression that j
's Mii possibly this is consistent with that fornat which calls for 1
13 . l the two different earthquakes, -- < i
*3
, WITNESS BROEHL: I believe it is.
1 i !
;7 ' DR. PAXTCN: ~~
the OBE and the SSE. 1
,.3. l! WITNESS BROEHL:
. . This is he'./ I have viewed the ODE..
q* 3 fl - CHAIR:*.NJ MILLER: Mr. Rosolio. , s'
. 1,' BY-MR. ROSOLIZ:.
h. a i *
- t
;;; !! Q Would everybody elca on the 'panol agree with I 7j! Mr. Eroehl?
h . n 31] A (Mitnars Frawing) 'Yes. gj fI
.. A (Witness Withers) Yes.
/ I
/' N '
gf a' ;A (Witnass Chris tensen) Yes.
\s
.! .O
}. ~ - . ...;._. .. _ . ..-.. ._. .
.- . . . . . - . ~ . . . .~ : . . , . - = - - . . = = = - = .
1958- R V WN eb6 1'l O When you say the building cannot be tested, what - Y \) i
~
2 do you mean -- cannot be tested for an SSE? ' p l y
~ U (( MR. BANKS: Well, maybe you have a way to do it. j i
i! J i !
? .- MR. ROSOLIZ: Well, I *..2nt to kno.1 '.dau he means i l l
d{ .- when he says it cen't be tested. ! 3[ ., UITNESS BROEHL: We just don't have building J 1!
- o. } '1
. 7 shakers that big.
i lj l , b MR. ROSOLIE: Oh, okay. I thought you meant that j 4 ._. . . . . _ . . . . - . - - - 4
& i t
all this testimony we've been hearing was no goca r "'~" i .
'O .I 3Y MR..ROSOLIE: $
4 _ I '. hI O You stated also that an SSE is vary v.nlikely co i t ,
- 2 g occur. What do you bare that on?
13 A (Witness Breehl) The basis on which the <1esign [ ,
.v . 11, criteria for the plant was developed.
jt 15 }' CHAIRMAN MILLER: Mr. Rosolie, I have the impres- -
. i 16[ oion you're running down. Is thr.e true?
'7l 8 MR. ROSOLIE: I'm getting close.
2l . (Laughter.)
. "J '; MR. KA500RY: It's under .lg at the moment. ;
#~
23 BY MR. ROSOLII:: i i 21 t, Q I guess this is to It'. Withe:.a: I tl '
~t .:d' In the response entitlad "Licensca's Supplar.utal I u
3l Response Ottad October 27, 197 0 to CenSclidaW. Innsynce rc ' t, .
.- Interrogatcrios 2eceived August 14,197S," and I ballavs ! .f ..
Id l O gg .h you respended to Interrogatory 13 D, which is p=.ge 3 d that 1, -
*t I .
.t.
1- - . ga. w. w e em ai- y r,s m -g).% d- -' &W e ed , e bee 4% Ele ***We 'h.*M w
;f 1959 i:
v' n- ; f 3
~
1 eb7 i h . document, where is the time history accelerograph recorder .
/mNh .>
d i I! I br' ,l 2 j' located? j 1 3h (Witness Uithe: s) A It's located in the control !
$ \
- t. . rocm immedistely no::t to the caak shock annunciator panal.
1
?q O And -you hava h2ard it go off when '.he pl: t has i :
l ,' i 3; been operating? j 4 4
* *' f
. A I personally have not heard it go off, but I have >
Ol talked with several people who hava.
- i
~'
a, . DR. MC'COLLOM: What do you maan, "go off',* and
*0 ; t/nich one are you tal':ing about? :
4, ; HITNESS WITHE *tS: I'm talking about de ti. .2 .
+ , :
n ', history acceleregraph reccrder which is triggerad at tha .Olg.,I t [mf n 'i DR. MC COLLOM: To start recording? ! ( i. e l 14 ji WITNESS WITHERS: Yes. That vould then energice I
. g'- i! the five acceleregraphs and one of those, or three channels 1
j
\
p,; of the 15 would be recorded on this recorder which would then-j j . ;
,; !j start runni~ng cut'a printout. I
,s =
j; l BY MR. ROSOLIE:
# i
. 3 i! O So theia has been ceismic activity at the plant
{ L.
,- .g. g at .0lg?
4 *
* !t . ,
yh A (Witnocs %? thars) lic, dora has not. Chara hcva
.1 e.- b n
besn occtrrances, thou.gh, whOn this equi:=2nt hce. h .3.Sn
- s
.p ,
energized in de precess of oclibrntien cnd c; crab:.ng it a.nd
-4
- v. ji I understand that it has oparated in tha pact dua to chcchs
.I
.) e
,.3 cn the ground in that vicinity by hea's equiptant, or dr:pping f]i V. .,.: d. -
D lt , m, __ _ . F qsf@/ e w -ed 'Wp-6 i %g4ah.e.e@ g te s +emgetg $m impage.peuru Maww Ap M -'a
r
~
1 1960 .
.g 1 , pm\
i ob8 [ materials. That is located right next to a roaduay inside , 6 A / a l i the' plant, the trigger mechanism which wottid energize that I i- : i "
} equipment', so the equipment has been energi::2d for calibration; 4
A. no knew 13dge of a saisuic.a. ant
- Al y
3 0 ' That.makes me wonder how -- if there was an carth-
.. .e y
# 1 h quake how would you determine that you had an accurate read-
_ l
; f '* , '
I ing if this is located in an area where heavy equipment will l
'3 ]t be going by?
O i q A What reading are you talking.about? t
, ") Pi Q The time history acceleregraph.
ll q ;! A The instrcment that I uca referring to was the ;
- ji:
trigger =echanism which is in prob:bly the nrt suscsptible 1
/]Vj ..,
- I i
place. It would energize.and activate five accelerographs
.; D l' M '
- M
- at different locations within the plant, and thay would t
provide you with a . reliable history not related to that night l
'o l
i i have occurred in the area immediately adjacent to the trigger. ; 7 {e DR. MC COLLOM: Is the trigger mechanica any part t ,
. 1 1 N i
, l 61 of that record that would show what seismic activity wculd
~ i 3[ occur when you 1co'k back on it? The trigger it:cif. i: it I o
i
. Z !{.. triggered by the.same accelerograph thac is then record 2d .
?I Il later, or is it trie.a.ered and then another ccca'. r x.r.wAh is
.d i
..3 .
;j the one that' is recorded on the brccing?
Ul UITME53-UITI22S: It 's a sap hr .te inctrr.snt. I af
*-. 37 MR. ROSCLIZ:
i , g\ i a (M[ F3 { a n O Uculd an automatic shutdown system add t., the ! 1 l.-. : 4 t el - g, _,;,., i _ < - . . . - - ~ . -~.. !
$ Y V --'t w -
7ma . - _____ m. m._ _ m-r- _._----_a_.__.a_m._w._ - _ _ . _ _
.. . . _ .. a _m __c ._.__;.. :._ . ;- :.z-- ._.
-l a
g 1961 , t 1 eb9 ability'of the plant to safelyshutdownincaseofanearth-j l *h l l \
~2d.: quake? '
e
~
O [i MR. BANRS: This may bc the sama question that I
*: .i 4' objected to beforo .that Mr. Ecfoury acky'., cithough it is i
54 not quito as elear to me uhat he'c asking, but I'll ebj2ct
, a v I 3a just to ha consistent with the othar cbjacticn. Ze ucre 4 !g i . 7 talking about other plants and sema sort of an autcmatic j 1
3 it am, i as^ g i D.}
&jl ..
MR.;RAFOURY: It's in a bettar form than my ques-I
!O l tion. i 6
}<
f t [; (Laughter.) ' Su.t 10 1 i CHAIFl4AN MILLER: It may be a little morG polished I [/]% , G, .but I think the end objective appears to be the same, and [ }
.'we will, for consistency and other reasons, sustain the
;4 15 g objection. I s :
i ts y) ,, MR. ROSOLIE: May I be heard, Mr. Chairman? 1
,7 CHAIP24AN MILLER: All right. By the way, you'ra a; taking a' lot of + 4e. I know you're doing the best you can, j.
g, 6. but we're spendin'g an awful lot of tima, f I Zj MR. ROSOLIE: I'm trying bot to rapaat what g; 9 Mr. Kafoury has dona or cnyona else has dcne.
.i;
-[
3-CHAIRMTS MILLZR: It'c not that ycu're rapenting, 0
= .it's just that you're taking'so much time. 3ut go 2 head.
.._ ; y What would you li*t:e to be heard on?
r F, h-
\
\
;y, hj f(
.t 4 MR. RCSOLIS: It seems to me thct ainee bhare is
. li -
i t*
. - ,. .m . - .- . . _ , _ r.-. , _ _ . _ , . . . _ . _ _ . .
.= - ----::.-::;- - -
1962 h
; eblo 1 a possible safety question here and the margin of safety and - i, > h l -
2 the ability of the plant to safely shut down if an earth-
\
3j . quake occurs at the plant, then it vould seem to me anything
*i -
that would essist or increase that ca_fsty nar. Tin culd be of 3* int 3 rest to ' this Board and the Zoard may racer.nond to the i / ' 8, Commission that such an item parhaps be installed. i
'... 7 j.'
And you know if it is the view of this panel or i a !{ other panels that perhaps such a system would be valuable, i s, i the Board might want to censider that. t
' t C i: CEURMAti MILLER: Well, we thank you but it is d
i' t far beyond the jurisdiction of the 2 card or our provin=a, l 5 n and it is also not consistent with tha record to data. f 'There may be many things you would lika to suggest
- p. !' that could be done in another forum, but a trial typs pre-
;3 eseding is not the one.
3d .;3 7 ., h
, 13 6
- h ?)
20 9] ,
< l d
+ + Li me L
r il 1
'( 25 v
,1 I
tt
.__ m.. .. . _ . _ . .__ _ . . - . . -- --.
- . s:t. '
- il -
t 1963
; i I I ^ 3E agbl 'I . BY MR. ROSOLIE: f I '
^3 !T ' . . .
I H i
}I Q Who on the Plant Review Board is the structural-6 ' !' - 3.d .
tj, engineer? , y 4 i i ~
"d h (Mitncss - With ars) Therc ar: no "It: 4 f. '.tr ?.1 '
t . enginacrs" on the Plant Revicu Dcard. ; 1 . 9 4 1 . 12.220
- 1; O eWho, on the Plant Review Board, is qualified l' *.* ,,-
"' , in seismic design?
g , 1:
, "; A There are no saismic designors on ths Plant
, n, , _._ _ _ . . - - - p 3I , Review Board. .
~
I s D Q And is that true, also, of the Huclaar Review s at " Board -- is that correct, the Nuclear Revici Board? 7 4 r9 h A (Witness FrcWint;) The answar ic, tharc are no ].
)
, 4, ,
.e U[ seismic desigr ns on the Nuclear Oparations Board, altnough .
[ , N./ ; the Huc1 car Operations Doard does have available to it i i
?
U }' the resources of Mr. Christansen's department which does j
.I.
M).!, include qualified structural engineors. i. L,,, i
;[' Q Mr. Christansen, it's my understand frota your 4 IS testimony that you're the person responsible for tha seismic !
3 ' instrumentation systems. Is that right? I f l
'*~-- T ! A (Witness Christensen) I'r$ responsibic 60 the '
. l
, i t
i 'f l degree that: my depart: ent chose the squipnant to ha in:te*12d. l d The cars and maintencnce of thc 2quipment is. 7:rdorm:0 by 1 C; Mr. Withers and his grouo. i
/,,
M - t' d.
'Q Dcos your department s'taluata thn fun.::ioning l e .
i [q; 1 2 p1- s of that equipatent? ' N " 1 .
'I g
l!
. .,.,_.._.-n....
, p .w a r =$,,- gr us- -M* W T'Wh.s *'W4.+'84*'**' **
,__,_ g . . , , n.-., v-~~ * ~ *
'l
- 'l
1964 '
;m)
( agb2 11 i A If there wcs a seismic event, ' we would, yes.
.ih '
2I ' Q How about the testing of that equiplaent, who ! 3 ' evaluates that? ti -, ,. A (Uitnasa Withers) chat testing .:c.C.d 22
- t . ,
f b {' i, , ovaluated by supervisory personnsi in tha engin2ering or i 8 I technical activity at the plant. It would also be subject j
. ~ i to audit by the plant quality assurance departnent. I cl. l
~j .
Q ...And_are there people on there from Mr. Christensen C: 9l! 8 department? i jQ ' t A No, Mr. Christanson's people wculd be involved , ja L! in ,the event that we had probler.s with the equipment end !
'l I l t"o j sought their help or assistanca.
V
'\ O l' A (Witness Christensen) The calibrations of this '
equipiaent is done in conformance with manufactcrers' pro-E caduras. I IO' O Mr. Withers, on tha first page of your testinony, 17 the third paragraph which begins:
- s. G "The Trojan plant has an emergency procedure identifying the actions to be cahen
- D ~ in respons'e to scismic instrumentstion, actuation.
and other indications that an earthquc%e has s! occurred."
-l .
E3 ! 'Tcat arc those ' indications? M A (Witness Withers) That would be feeling the O ig .E ;; effects of a aeismic event, in other words, vibre. tion in i I
.n.. * .. ._
, ,. , . . . - . - . _ . . . ~ - . . . , _ - . _ - . .
o . 4' f 1965 '.
'f 'l t ;i * /( w\ V/
agb3 J the building, vibration noted by plant staff. personnel outsiae, N ,.A ?yy ; j .[ the building, but a positive awareness that a seismic event j
- - i ,
o o -l - p, had occurred. i. .;. .5!
- e Q ':ould ih bc mora 1::3:r M at icu p;:n:.r. ~ .1 c.
-,d
\
1 1
/ ji tha control builfing to' fasl ths acr'dqnthai ':sthor K.:.n d
,P, pec.o. la outside?
g
, t
.0 A It really wouldn't matter. It would .orceab1v ,
.4 c .d . 1
. . _ _ _ _ _ ..;p_be more likely_that peoplo outside wouM_ feel _ it. But it 1
n. c o could be felt in either placa. Out an earthquaha the siaa 10 F
, wa're talking abcut as the CS2 or tha 533 uculd i:e felt n
. .. ; p ,
by people.ce the plant.
-~
Q Uhat would occur if c.n cpere. tor falt vibrati:n . N .e -
^'
I insida the plant, but the enunciator did not light up? q l i
- v. d A That question ic a lit:la bit hard to answer
'J
- 3 without soma definition of the vibration or whe.t phenomena ,
that he e::mrianced. . Could you be mora soccific? .
- CHAIR:LM LIILLUR: You'ra gatting e. littlo bit !
i de i $. ::: remote now, aren't you? Whct dcoc tais h.va to 20 ia a 3 t ,
- t practical way, with the interin operatien,.&- =accat.bla
. d ,
* ) ,,
, 'I safety. You don't raallr cuacose . c. that. 'ta ' r.2 do,.. ut iho
.)
% . fin poi:tt of whether cr act pucpla f:al :. :~c.t .a cr.: wc - 1 1
"~-
d decide wher.har it's a truck or scmathing to daterr.in: 1h ?.t 4,. u -. ,,.....a... . , , ,. ,. ,....c...,z,>
,, .a .. . - . . . .. : . .. .
.a-..
*l
.a s "",y'i You've cove. red c.nd .ro :p mitt:d you h covar ti.
- s, , .
., e
( ~ y instrumen ation and cc on. 3ut v':u'v: rcLchsd I .';cliavc r.
~
'i r
- 6. e-4 _ .,, _ _
,_ ._ -- . _ . - . ~ . - . . . ._. . . . . , _ . __
; I i
1966ji 'I .1 gh , l V(
/
agb4 2, point of not merely diminishing returns but very nearly diminished returns. If you have anything further, get on
, 1 0 .i
" with it. If not, I'm afraid we are going to have to terminate '
- 1} l
.f you. ; '5 i I :.R. ROSOLIE:
I guess thsta all I hc.ve,for now.
- 6[
CHAIRilAN MILLER: All rignt. Thank you. . s i'
. 7 We will take our afternoon recess. i 1 i
S
-= _ _. .. (Reces s. ) _ . . _ . _ _ .
i' C - CHAIRMM MILLER: vis. Bell, you mey c:ca_r.ine.
] BY MS. DELL:
. . l.1 0 I'm going to start my crocs-e::amina icn by picking 12 i' '
up a few points that were , brought up in -- that ara in the ,
/ 13 i-V ! k record, that'the Licensee will provide witnesses to answer >
14 these questiens, so it's just a matter of clarifying a few 15 points as we go on. 16 !- i I believe, Mr. Withers, you said that taere is a minimum of five operators at the Trojan plant ct any given 5 j shift, and three licensed operators. i 19 A (Witness Withers) Y4s. 1 3[ ,f Q . And that is for .both the shutdcun condition er.d I the operating condition? Thera is no diffarance?
~,l.
A Yes, thara's a difference in the refueling Nl 4 Cperation. Y O". 100 requirc.d to h.*.V3 '.ic nn 0 0.3 bC".h . 4.7 th .
.a l control 2000 and in tha refueling ar3a. That is 39311ad out pa N .( in the FSA3. And you achieve that by reassigning pacple.
t . d
.a.
m -Nao emewe e.p-reaa .s wa - - de =e ss s. a. --do=,m.-- _*.-
- _ m _ . . . . i es-
-p 1967 1:;
"d
.: )
obl 1 1: It is different in those two conditions. a j.
" h '-
8-i d 13 e Q There was some question about any arrangement that ! U
~
Sy PGE Would have with Bochtel Corporation as far as inspection 5. e
. procedures. Could any menhor of the peine.1 hall na a little -s L >: bit about that relationship, if PG2 has it, in terms of 1 .
G '[. inspection, let's say for after c scic:aic event?
, d.
l
. 7 ,' ,: A .(Witness Broch1) We have no contract with anyone l'
, O regarding outside services for inspection following a seismic
. , . . - . . ..P i i By event. Depending on the nature and the depth of inspection,
'i
, ?C li ty t we would require outside assistanca, or nay raquiro cutsida-1
!! g assistancs. And Bachtal Corporation, becauco they are in-
! .e.
- volved in design, might bo involved.
3ji Q Do you have any brief idea of whether or not they [-&s} 4 14f: ,might be called in fer the specific. purpose of 1 coking at t'
,9j .the effect of a seismic event on the structural situaation d
;d g at the Trojan plant, or is that just completely out of the d
vp realm of poscibility? r
,, yq i, A I think it would depend ccmpletaly on the nature
'* ig of the event.
t 20 0 You,might be able to shed a little bit of light c 1 . y: ? on this. Mr. Anderson frem Eechtel scid, unn: cresc-3 ,. examination from Chairnan Millar: g , 3* "If you ash...."
/,_
g.; l, CHAITLui MILLER: If you wculd changs that to " examination" from " cross-enerd. nation," ele:.J 27
.n . q -
z
?
*I p p v . %..wa- - ,,c.py.a wow'. v sw -v~ = = = > -
_. ~ '~
_ . . _ . _ _ _ - . _ _ _ m. s. - ll 1968 .
. i e
p eb2 1 BY MS. BELL: S Q "If'you ask the question, what happens L 11 : j 3 'j if the building fails, wo satisfied curselves . 4[ that the plant could be chut dcwn from outside il
, ef the building without use of equipment inside the l .
G[ building. It's not easy to do and I think that
- a. n. . 1 7 ll.1 any more information on this really should come
, 3 from Portland General Electric, who are much nore 3 .. --
0l familiar with operating the plant. W2 are satis-toy . fled that it could be done."
'l
;; Uould you h:ve any addition to what Mr. Anderson I
/
~2 N said abe.ut'that? ,
a ' 3l
, A . (Witness Broehl) I believe Mr. Withers can pro-v a l (4 lj aably address that. ;
U
' I 15 A . (Witness Withers) We have the capability to shut 2
L down the plant from outside the control room. g3 One of the 410 .-
} design criteria is to be able to do that with the control j
g j room uninhabitable. y
. i
,g g There sas not a design requirement that the plant e
2( be shut down with the control room o:/ the centrol building ' a destroyed or damaged because of a se smic event. i i
-.; We holieve that with serious problems $n the ,
I I y[ centrol reem or the control building. that us 3till have the
/, '
y, :; . capability to handle shutdown of the plant from outcid2 the
^
control room, but it would be difficult and it is beyond what h 3e
'5 Ij
,l the design of the plant entails.
;l -
1;4 - e .+m-*4 +==+m=*.- ,. -.,mgwe+ = .=*ms.. +
t 4
- 1. 1969 -i
!. 3f . j 1 WRB/mpb1 ! j' Q What can make the control room uninhabitable?
m , I A I believe this came about because of a "what if" i I 1 3 ', or " suppose" type question. And our position is that -- ,' i ( , , 4 e::cuse me, you seid the centrol recm nas uninhchitab'.o? :
;, 0 Yes.
i." G f,i . ( { C0 A- I'm sorry. j i
~
7i
) The control room could be uninhabitabic because ,
a of let's say the breathing ctmosphere, sacka er someding ! 3 hI s. ud like that hat would driva the people out. In that event
, i
- they could handic this from another 1ccation.
c1 . O Uhen you say "another location" I assume you're
, referring to the so-callad remoto statiens cd' cps ation that
(
.s w
) .
; . 3 .y, have been referred to by other witnesses. f
!4 ij A That is correct, ij ,
id [ Q And you would be able to do the shutdown proce-
,I
-: , dure from one station, or would you do it from coveral?
' A
, It would require people in at least four differ-
,, , ont locations outside of the control rocm to handla this.
. }! . i
- .9 [ Q A minimum of four.
. 1 e 43 >f And is ~ there any postula':sd mani um nurt a. you t *
~
u . would need for that? E
- w. ,a, A That wculd probcbly only be limiSed by the imagina
.g., ( tion that you put into the scanc.rie.
,, , .y ,f Q okay.
AI lL (. .g p And the number four, does that cene frcr the TEM p
'd
- f P
u. et.... 4 49-- se.4 ew-,e- en en m.sv < *k~=6# '
- --- l:- .
, . - .._.,._i._
Il t l 1970 i mpb2 1l or from PGE procedural things, or what? Where does that come
.,[]j , 4 2 from?
3 : A .That comes from the pGt proceduros. ..
~ .: l ; G h,,
O Imd could you briofly tell me *.there : hose four
,i , 5 y people would have to go in ordar to do that,. and uculd they y
3: [ have to be at their stations at the same time? 7ii A You would have one person at the au::iliary s
- j. G li feedwatsr pump control panel in tha turbine building, another
.l L[ person at'the charging pump area in ths auxiliary building, i
l 19 ; and two people at each of the safety-ralated notor control i 1- : centers, ons in the turbine building and ens in tha au::iliary
.t
,,- building.
q
.vs
[ ') 13 0 Is there any sort of relay or interccm system (\ ( w[ that would be used for comunication between the four stations" 15 A We have an installed plant communication system,
;9
~t
, an Executane system for paging throughout the plant. We also
; / .il. have walkie-talkies, radio communication available which would i
i ,
,,,, probably be used in this type of an event.
n Q And 'do those operators carry that with them or i* gc ( would those be found in the stations? a .
; j A They normally do not carry theso. In this kind d
.,j of an event they would pick the up as they lait tha r.ontrol
,i g i; recm.
.i
+ -q ,.ll There wnuld be other radio cormunicatien equipman aVailable in the GeCurity building juSt CutJidG t'le tUrDin3 s .
- If V
* ,-= i 4ew -ere . - +.4 u,,,p.,~.i. .aw.
.-__m_______.-__'w.+mia,e
, ~ .
s <..w. _- .. L' .. -
~,. _ -- * .-a. - - I
?
4 1971 Jd
-(<
DN 1 mpb3 . ] :;'j building where additional equipmsnt could be obtained if I 1 x ^ 1 1 l., 'd necessary. - i.
' .t 34 -
0 And going back to the second questien a minuta .
,- t k I li ago that those pecple have to be at thair rutiv.: al' * "he
'I
. f d 0,, sama tico? .
'l : -
sb A No, they would not. Thera vould hava to ha 3
. . d,
. 1
- 7. d, - coordination between the people. The can at th's charging . l 1 l 11!j station location would have to communicate with thoso at the 1
,, ap motor control centers, and they would have to manually cparats .
.9 j' breakors to operate valves, energiso equipmsnt, c.nd it would 1 il
;; l; be neces:sary for them to commr.icate with him cnd for him to
- i ccmmunicate with them to coordinate tho chcrging line-up to the!
1 E reactor coolant system. [v) i
;3
; ; }..j If you didn't have ' the walkie-talkio or E;:ecutene 2 i O
.i
;3 S system wasn't operating, would it atill be possible to chut i
..\
it
'5 4 down the plant?
} ,
D 1
;; 'i A Yes, but it would be =cro difficult. 1ou could j d' i t
, 9;
,t probably supplement that with messengere and a cartain cncunt 4 t
s, 9 of running around. But it would be mora difficult. ; e, n.i -
,a cl O Okay,.
s
,; So that wculd assentially =cvs up y:ur number of 3 9
.... , people required?.
.. 1p A Yes.
.- ; O okay. .
a s
- I s
u
.) And do you have any cetimation cs to what . hat
.' [...
.I*
'. i .
n.
..g , < . , . - --,%.m= me...,==-*+- 4 -
q:. L li'
'1972 3 > .n
/h a 1-
-mpb4 *j number'would be?
, },
{ 4 A /- . i ,3 . E ;a; A It might take two or three more peopic. But- i W s 5 'j there would be' security people, for example, availabla who ); e ,- j ,; could help in that role, and thoso pen?lm do c".rry r: dios .j -
- f. themselves. So it ic hard to see baing ccmpletely out of tho
'i s 'y 4 radio ccitmunication picture. .
- 7 ij Q So you would conceivably be utili::ing people who 1
i. 5.+-
. *i ig; are not trained 'in anything that has to do with reactor opera ,
- n. .. Q . ,.~...n..- ,.
_ . , . , _ . ,t You would usa security personnel? - t I';" tion.
.3 A ':'ho scenario that we got inte '..'ith this was if we had to have assistance .in cer=tnicchiens .a would ".se l
security people. And they are tucined in cerrxnications and
~
.)~. .g i in'the use of walkie-talkios, and I believe could handle
. ,\ l we that effectively.
pg g Q , Okay. Thank you.
.s; .
n PGE had subcontractors to do much of the work.
,' One mentioned by Mr. Danks was Tri-Erectors of
, ,, ,., Washington, and' they were subcontracted unlor Hoffman
;g , cons' ruction Ccmp'any, which is located in Portland.
. Go
- g. HofftrAn was, I prasuna , a. major subcentractor for ?GE?
.p ,
l
.n . -4 A (Witness Brochl) A najor contrcctor.
E
. Q A major contractor.
3 Hot many other majcr centrIcte.c3 in the s r.a
. .e
.; category as Heff:nn were there?
<_ e. ,,
A As I racall we had a total of 30 prima 00ntrach [Q. F
- k
- r. ; .. . . _ _ _ _ . _ . . .
e - .a.. . .
. _ _ _ _ . _ . _ . . _ . . . _ . _ . _ . __.m. _.
+
}.-
a l l 1973l
; .j j i,A mpb5 3 ,. on -the construction.
4 s , i
'^
i' 2i O And then -- could you give me a rough estimate 1- l . 3l - of how many subcontractors might have resulted 'from those l I r. ,
) ,.
4j' m!.jor contractc?
, 3; A On the order of ton total.
38 6a Q Ten for all of 327 d f. 4 7 A Those were subcontractors that performed work j i
. 3l .. ousite . ... ,_ _d' , _ _ . _ -
l l , DI Q And did.the 32 major contractore all perform ~ ~ ' l0 ' construction work? ' J
- A Yes.
Q Uov briafly, because I'm beginning to think this As . , f
.s Y. :x : isn' t an important point, but,Mr. Brochl, Mr. Banks mention t t'
14 ed that he might have a better answer as to a question that I i
. 1 15'l. asked of Mr. Katanics about the time period betwaan the- steel l 5,o building that was erected originally for the control building, 1 '
i
~
,r , between that time that that was erected and the time that it
,, , .., g. was completely closed off fron the weather.
1
;9 j Do yo'u have a rcugh indication about how much
, 20 - time that was?
,, ; 'd A (Witness Droehl) The steel crecticn was done i
during the fall of 1971. And following its ccmpletien the
.,, i ,
slabs for all levsls were olaced itctsdir.taly. Cnic provid.ed I m y weather protaction for the bulk of the ir. wor hiers of steal.
...e.,
4 1 That was followad almost immediatalv bv the - 6 -- ..
- t. _ . _ - _. -_ . _ . . _.
. t I
.i 1974
't I w
i mpb6 i !i construction of the major wal'is, outside shear walls on the
)
il 2h control building; 7.nd as I recall that building was essen-N, l 3g tially closed in by the ' summer or fall of 1372. Q And by "clahs" ycu're referr:8.n.; to floor 312bc? 5 i; A Floor clabs and the roof si do.
.i 93 Q I would presume this has alru.dj haan covered, *. 1 7 but this is simply a different context in which this questien '
d em . . . 3 :t: .+.. #,.came up. So if tou 'have anything to add I would appraciate it.
. . -- 4----e p1 If not, no is a good answer.
<a It was said in cecebody's tastimony -- I .'.:alieve i
e the 3echtel testimony -- thet:
.. "The Trojan Picat thua is enn of tho dau g power plants in the United States for which the g.; ODE selected is greater than one-half the GSE."
l jg;. L And I asked the question, would you say this stata
,c . ment is a conclusien about the site in any way, and Mr. ,
t -
; j ;l Anderson replied that Portland General Electric would be in
,- ,3 ., a botter position to answor.
* .n
.; !j A Ne selected the .15g for z.dditic 21 conservation.
,* '4 -
sn.~,
.i This is stated in the FSAR.
e
,I O Who selected that?
i'
..o.
.. 3 e,
Portland General Electric Compr.n*7 t'
,; O .And who in ?crtland Geror.rl Electric, .c . . 'the t a
w
. ij departrant?
s, s, ,. a e G A It was a managament deci.sion. a :t t 4
. . . . . . . . # . - . .. . . ,.r.... wee ..
.i
#*N 9b9sf c. % **MWW."'N #.+Str@4-4" " ' ' * - ' 'M ' # *'MP-* '-* ' " - ' ' '
____m.______m. _ . - - _ . - _ - _ - . - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
3 1 1975 ,
.h I h'% li 5 mpb7 1 0 'What section of the management was responsible ]
j i( e 2 for that decision? d 1
?
3 , A The ultimate responsibility rests with the 4..'j vice presidant of Enginetring Construction. ,; . .5 1 O Nho was at the time? ' i j ;' , 6 ,, A General E. C. Itchner. I
] c-l Q To .your knowledge was he provided with any --
7{ l l 1 . G[ what documents was he provided with to help him, to aid in ,
! D' I: making that decision? ~
n Ti A To my knculedge there was no parti::d er document l involved. Rather it was discussions with tha enyinsers and , l
- consultants that he had working for us at the tina.
J 2 '- 0 Was he given -- to your knowledge, was he given
'd i :
;4 ll any range of figuras that he could have chosen from?
o ". A At that time thera was nc established criteria, 15 ['
; l
,s i, very little precedent established for the selection of an i 1
- / il operating basis earthquake, and it was, rather, 'a balancing i
. ;s if of what the expected design criteria would be for the CBE I
;g and the SSE. ,
And the idea was to maximize the ODE level so I e ,* i t 20 ;. as to preclude having to shut the plant down for the maximum a >- . y,: q' amount yon could get for the reascnabla meney spent. y\,.i q !{ i, It was strictly' a prudent cparaticaal qucatien so il
~
e- .i. ! far as the companv 'ms concernsd. l'
^3. + y ;t- Q Without a whole lot mere detail, could you c:: plain that to me again? Maybe it's my hearing too. I'm not hearing 3l .
i) t h.
- e. . ._.
.a-p.; m e.sw amo gp -r+%a ,wgm .a #.e,gew +
_.. . . . - ~ _ . _ T. p
.ib 1976 { -
- q &
((} . mpb8 y you that well.
.{
; j^
A
~
2 ld ' ; A' The ' decision was one of operation a l ability j li g 1 dh 5 recognizing'that were an O.BE to occur that exceeded what our f-1 i a
' i valus was set at,. the olant t:'ould havn te b . chuu drn anc'. a 3
i, I l, , d ,; detailed inspection. This is an operating plcat and w: have l, j ' i l 6 '; it there to make power, not to shut it down and lock at it, i e, p [ !
~
't
'# l
- 7. il.e So if for essentially little or no material i ;
1
-$.. j u.._ '3 i_. ._additiont.1' _co_st_ you. can get a higher icvel ,f operating basis
.. .~
l
- ~
g
; 3i earthquake it's a prudent decision, we fcci, to go to a come-10 l what higher level. And with the critoric as we n'.dsrcteed it
, at that time this would have been a balance betwcan the operat ' I
- L
' ' ing basic earthquaka. and the acfc shutdown carth:Iuche.
p
, )+ .a Q Do you know if the management was provided wir.h
)
] 6, s, a minimum? '
i 1
;5 ;; Do you understand my question? '
l g . A No. i i i 1 7l Q Do you know if the management was proviisd with f i
., . ,a a minimum level which they could work frem?
. .t .
l9 j A Mo. i it
, ;c h As I say, there was no establichni critaria at 1 + .
3 N the time we were selecting that operating basis earthquakn. ! 72 0 10 CFR Part 100, which is the criteria new -- cr Appendin A i a li 2 o to that -- fcr establishing the .- operr. ting Snais cartw:uuhe
, .f., h.. and the safe ahutdown earthquaks was not in place at the tima
'g . g ,V . C " 4 wa vare cerforming the initial decign and Inking our
~
Ij. t, -
.V
.4 v.
n.,
% , .n % g, .w-.- em.-., # *=omm.ee -4 +--= +-
- p. -.m ,
y ? "'
. . . ~ .. . . _ . .... . .-. . ,.
l 1977'f,
.! d f~ts mpb9 i construction permit application. That I believe came into j l
\ '
) 2 - effect -- if I re all right, in N vo ember of 1973. It was in i
, f I
l 3 place at the tin.4 of our receipt of our operating license. , l 4.. But of ccurse tha '+'dgn had procef.ed that by O
! . 5 !! a number of years. ? l 1 -
'y !
- i P Q Maybe I'm drawing my own conclucions, but would ;
1 l 7l you agree with as if.I said that picking these numbers was g 0 }j somewhat arbitrary? G !} A Somewhat. 4 . i
!O '.I O And would you agree that to a largs a:: tent we're j e
talking about safety versus money in deciding, what e::catly 1
", , the levels are going to be set at. i
[)5 g r; A Not as far as .the operating basis earthquake is 14 l concerned. The safe shutdown earthquake, yes. t I
~
15 !! l 5 Ii i
*. i e !
1 and 3f g
;[,. : '
. e
",}
l
': t-l ?
I
- l
- t ti y-~ y (3' I !
sw) .n i s l
.1 il
.I.._
j d'9"WW' -
- T $edW999 a rf
. WW w am@.- -.m
._ g g _ ,, _
u _
~
_, , _ . . . _ , ___ 1
.i .
1978 ' [, e
'{
f 3g ebl i ), Q WouldyouthenbesayingbythatthattheOBE--thd ,j(w.N.200
\ .
2 !!
- 4 method that you used to determine the OBE had nothing to do
?
4 l
. .l. ..
l 3 !j with the desire to maintain financial stability by being able , i !; ., 4 ' to operate the plant most of the tima?
'{ A Being abic to operata was the piima:y reason for u .
4 : 1 6 !i sotting the OBE level where it was.
! *. 'I ,
t,
'* !! 14 Q And are there safety trade-offs with the CBE as ts
- _- SN well as the SSE? ._ _._ _ . l l
~ ~
0 'I A The SSE is -- that's a question of safaty.
- r 3
l '.' ; . O Is there a safety trada-off in terms of money when j. 1 M4f; you are determining the ODE as well as what ycu just said i M. about the SSE? O ( \- O' [i -CHAIRMAN MILLER: Pardon me. What dc you mean?
^ ; .
l' ; Maybe you'd better define that term. I'm not sure that I'm ; i tf! understanding it. 4 I a I MS. BELL: Trade-off c2.3 -
;: ?
I
- 7 'j CHAIRMAN MILLER: The whole thing. Money, trade- i, li .
., 12 ll off, and safety, you're stirring them all up in a pot but i o, j
- s. ll I'm not just sure"what your sami-conclusion is in your ques- 1
, 20 h tion which is gatting mi:ced up vith 032s and SSEs now, so I .
t a! would like a clarification, plaase. 4 r:] BY MS. BELL:
- s j Q You originally said that the CSE and the S3E vore i
fs
\
;.g ' set-- In other words'the 03E was set first. It was set at i
;j a point wher2 you -- basica11v. so that vou uculdn't ha'io to
,g l ,t.,.: -
.s U
u.
,s
-~; - . . . - ~ . ~ , - . . . _ , , , . .- _ . . _ , . n__,
. . . . . . _ . _ . , ... _ . _ __ ._..m. - _ _ . _ . . . -
l i f o 1979
! I h,
-eb2 1-{l shut the plant down every time there was a little treme e l-f }
! L .2 2 j l
. 1 because it wouldn't be that important, and also you vould I t ;
5 i 3l .. lose money if you had to shut the plant down. That's my y l
- 'l 4 ., . language, but isn't that what you caid? l 11 l; 3j A (Nitness Brochl) It was an opercticnal considera-
, O j tion, yes.
l 7 ';I MR. BANKS: The only thing I'm concerned about is 1 e - __, _,4 !} whether.he said_that.that was. set first. I den't. remember f.1 . _ . . . _ 9d anything like that. N iC I' CHAIRMAN MILLER: I don't recall that either. I nf H . Did you testify or do you testify that the OBE 12 'j level was set first? I suppose first or sacend is in tarms
- -x j
[ ) a of the level of SSE. V' *~ l ' l 14 d WITNESS DROEHL: The S3E and the OBE were estab-4 lished at the same time. The SSE really set in a sense the 15 l
,3 OBE level. We believed at the time it was set that at 60 per-
, 7 , cent of the SSE the economic cost would balance. This was y
. ; !: looking at an unfactored OBE versus ths.SSE. This is the
. .I
. r, basis upon which that was established.
2C , , BY NG. DELL:
!i m 't i
0 Could you define what you mean by-*halance" as y:n nd just used it in your last sentenco?
'l
? A (Uitnoss Eroehl) As we underst:cd tha criterin 23 0 1
'N at the time those were estchlished, an unf actored 03E vi:h 21 h
. \j h 31 2 percent damping and an SSE cf 5 percent damping producad f.'
i! N
- - ~. . -.-
l 1 t i l . I ; t l 1980 l- ! 1 %
' !j! l l
't eb3 i essentially the same forces. And on this basis we felt that'
'C I' the ODE could be set at 15 percent, the SSE at 25 percent. ! )
.l *
., I I
2 i; t, This is 60 percent'of them with no a'aditional cost to PGE j' l l' l-1.250 ~ for plant I.cilities. .td it efas en thct .h.:in that it U:.3-1 ' i. ; c' set at 60 percent.
. .i.
j, I '! i Q Okay. .,- i v e '; , I 79 A In other words we maximize the OBE without having -!
- I d
. ..+
- jj -- we felt at that time -- spent additional:.cney. -.
$ V. l I1 CHAIR @N MILLER: Additional =cnsy for what? You '
r
- 2
!C .I wouldn't have to spend additional monoy for Uhat? l I 1
. 1
; ".1
?TITNESS 2RC2HL: ' 2'or building additonci strangth !
- .' into the facilities. This 60 parcant '.n.c act at n very }
l T ii . 1.3 early time, and the establishment of coma of'the design N ,l values, in our understanding -- it was PGE's understanding '
;! 1 c :i was that it would not require any uhat.=_ight be a minimal }
e .
.i-f M. amount of additional-reinforcing bar or anhancement of the i l
?? , equipment design in order to support the 50 percent CEE. j i .i
' l
% ' t ". ; CHAIRMAN MILLER: So it was in tarma of OSE and :
!! . j
.' 2 . ! not SSE? l s
l
- C ,' WITNES3 BROEHL: That's right. .The SS vcs re .'..'.y I n i 4
r,; the primary safety consideration. I bel'.ava at 1:he tin 3, atd c2 . we fc11y underato.:d the critorir., we probabi2 vould hr.va r 51 tried to set it nt c. 1cuar valta. , e (
,,.t, ~ ;t CHAI2'Cni MILLER: Tha C33? ,j 5! *
\ pa ;,', WI* NESS B3CEHL: Tne 032. }
H s '.
.e -
.I
?.s .
, . . _ . , - - _ . . . . . - - . . _ . ,,,,s. . . _ , . _ . , , - . _ . .
, . -r , - . , - n--
I' ., 1981 i i
]n.h k,))
eb4 1 CHAI:tMAN MILLER: Thank you. !-
, 2 DR. PAXTON: If you had fully understood the -
I O I criteria that didn't exist then. - [ 44 WITNESS ERCEHL: Right. ii . u . i . 5,lt, DY MS. BELL:
** . 0 '
j . G Q Under cross-e?. amination by myself of Witnesa j 7 .. Miderson of Bechtel Corporation, we were talking about the f
'O i
t
- 8. *:7 . manual controls that were located -- that are located in
._ _ p 9 )$ the auxiliary feedpump area in the turbins'buildin[, and'he :
Li y . J' thought that this was one elevation removed from the control i 10 I h 11 room itself. Is that true? !
, q
- u. l A (Witnesc Withers) No, it's actually th "m '2Vels e
fs ( . 1.3 removed. It's on the ground level or the 45-fcot level while 14 the control building is -- the control recm is at tho 93-foot . 15 level-l p,: O So basically one would run down three sets of
'~
17 stairs, or walk down?
'l t 1C A Yes, you'd go from the 93 to the 77 to the 61 to i
- . I ib the 45. l
~. ,
l
- 2.0 Q Now I also asked him in what way would a person l i
%t be told, that is, an operator or would that person ccma from I
;. t nj the control room? And he didn't have much of rn answer. (
g[ He referrod it to you.
^ I,; A Well, that is a little difficult to annuer b2cause !
)
g p3 l at any given time, operating personnel can be in a nurter s P
. - - ,- w,
t. J
.L 1982 1 i
O
\
j. eb5 If ., of locations. There will probably always be at least .two
! a '
1
',lt. . in the control room, maybe more. The other people would be .
}
d . 2 j' out in other parts of the plant. Their whereabouts vould be l 4 1 known by 'cho control cperater. So he wculd inztrr.:': th:m as
] ,- UN to'the places they would go. ,i '
q . 34 The shift supervisor who is the nut.:er one man in
^
\
7ll,- charge .on the shift would be following up to make sure that
- i
~
4 k. __ people _got to those proper _sj;ations outside the. control _ room, i . y - - . _ _ . - _ . O h, the control operator directing and the shift superviser
.1 M !j backing him up. i 0 l
'.i Q How does the control operator kn.:w whers d e other ;
, ! operators are in the plant? Is thors scme cort of a sign out ! l 1 system in the control room?-
-Q
'i4 j'i A He assigns them where they cheuld p: When they l
leave the control room into other areas.
~3 : 1 il l 9
uu ;; o Okay. l r. i I r/ ;jy Mr. Andersen identified as category 1 structurns - I
- i I t ;c ;; in the Trojan plant the auxiliary building, the f'.el building,!;
.- 1; , i ic t!
the diesel building, the containment, parts of the intake }
- y , ;
. 1.04 structure, the auxiliary feedpump area, and de turbina i h .
- ?
*3 1,:
building, and I belisva th: t was n11. - t
. - t a s
.- . ,; ,: Are there any othar Category 1 structurcs? l l n !.
*; y A (Witness Chrisesasen) lic , Ho's corrtet. t F ^3 u i:- A- (Witness 3rechl) tTould you repeat dat question, ;
b' i v,s li please? Y - l
- ti 1 :
0 ; w -- --- . , . _ , . -
-n . . . .
. _ . _ . _ _ _ _ _ . _ _ _____________c_ _ _ _ _ _ - - . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
~
,_. .--_ , _ . _ . . . _ _ . - -- . _ - - .- ~ - - - -
l
,l 1983
~ '
3 S eb6 1 Q Identified as ' Category 1 structures were the " s. N
^e 2 i
auxiliary building, the fuel building, the diesel building, 3 the containment, parts of the intake structure, the au::lliary feedpump area,inside the turbins buildine. Ar there nn 4 i. i
. E more?
i ! I. ' A (Witness Frewing) Did you mention the control
- e. >
7 i building? i 3 Q Actually I didn't. - ~ . . 3! e The question was "other than the ccatrol building.".. i IC l t A (Witness Broehl) There is also the cervice water i 11 ;; strainer pit which is hetueen the intake a tructure and the 12 fuel building. i ( O) ,
'3 ;
i Q okay. Thank you. te, I Also referred to in preparing certain t' ables in l I tsJ their -- the reference to their testimony that had to do with ; I I isj mill certificates they said that the Applicant was the person 1 i or the group responsible for holding onto the mill certifi- i g ,li
., ta ji cates. Is this true? 5' 4 i -
;g ;f A Yes.
. ( ,
2a l. 0 And is that PGE or a major contractor or a sub- l l i.
- 2. p contractor? ,
- 1 q l' A PG2 has those records. They're in the dccument i
( - 1
'd3 rcom. '
7
-m 21 0 They are not kapt at the plant?
/N\
( :, A Well, we have copias of them in tha document recm.
.V 9'5 j
j r ' l i
- -- . - . . . -~ .-._- ... . . . . .
I.; 1
' i 1984 i /~' < .!!
f eb7 ' ;1) They are kept in safekeeping in Portland. - Q{' -
,[
~(!! 0 Okay.
3 !! 4 1 This may have been supplied, I don't remember. I : don't recall receiving it. Under crosc-e::an.inatica by the 3 d .. State of Oregon, Mr. Anderson could nc.,t supply the answer to ' 4 , what subcontracter plac.d the rebar in the shear walls, and
- o. p 7 li ,
Counsel was going to supply this information. itas it supplied? 4 i O ph .... _ . MR. _B._ANKS :- That's what ycu read earlier. __ I..
-. . l
_ l'
? think what I tolc' you was that that cubcontractor I dcn't
!O remember the name of that supplied tha .cchar, he may alec 4 ;
O. . have installed it. 4
'2 0 3Y MS. 3 ELL: l
,. ? l
/T g IS . j (v})T y Q One last clarification-- Oh, that was determined t
1.380 M ,1 not to be relevant by the Board. ! 5 a
'3f CHAIRMAN MILLER: Thank you. !
H[ :s MS. BELL: So I'll skip that one. l I
.7 'i BY MS. BELL: .
p ; il i !
* '.S
!{ Q Could you explain to me how a sump pump would ;
il '
'E '; indicate a leakage in the primary coolant system, just l
, O? briefly? .
';
- A (Witness Withers) Fe have st=p pur.pc :.ccatad' at 9t , various places in the plant, including tha containmant
= building, and there is indication in tha cc::arol r en .=
, y these simp pumps operate and in some cases there is liquid
~
s 24 H l
, 2. l?'"1 indiC9tO in the pump, high laVGl-low lOvel. 50 the
?g e
i
.~.- . . - . . . . . - -
-. u -
2: n ,, i s 1985 ' l' ab8 ! actuation of a sump pump or the frequent actuation of a sump ! s 2I . pump or the abnormal levels in the sump in an area would t 3l indicate that liquid was running into that area at an ab-
- 1 i normal rata, or in an area thors that phone.anen hcd not '-
t
... 3 previoucly been experienced, and would indicata to the opera--
6: tors an abnormal situation that should be follousd up and
!.. )
7i f investigated. j i
. Q The emergency response plan, who is responsible
. _ _ . .3{ l 94 for contacting Region V of the IIRC?
~ -)
1 to l A Are you referring to the seismic -- !
- d Q Nell, if there's a difference I would like an {
d j , i; i answer to both. I l a
; -- A I would be the person responsible to contact or 14 direct others to make that contact with the MRC. ,
;5 Q In both situations? .
I 5 13 , A Yes. , 3g 77 ; i i
' f
, ia ! i
. l is l , i l
... !! s
, 20I .
T ( l e r lI 20N l!
'3 ut t D
(' w i: h li n u i - ~ ~ - . *g %,,-, s % w., . _ .,,% , __.
+--g- g..w w -
i., ,,-vwg ,e- ya
, m _ . _ . ._ - . . _ . _ _ . ,
'l i lj 1986
)
18
!7/ .. g [
7
) 311 avb1 -
Q Could you explain to me the difference between . i 2a g
$te emergency rasponse plan and the seismio amarg5ncy
"~-
3' .' response plan?
,.4
.d A I'm'not certain wh!.c you mean hy cR;.::iuncy i
3h j [j response plan. t *- 00 C2 f Q Well I presume that PG3 has an atsrgency responso
* !j
' ljj plan for both on-site and off-site procedures te b: carried. l'
^^ out in the evenb of an emergoney- .
i t r ,
" [4j' Now, the on-sito things would includa all corts i.. o
E of technical things we don't necd to go into a.t this point, ie i\
unless they are specific. IIounver, thora sra nora ganaral
. things that have to do with conmunications, and that's whan
. e. i
" (j I'm interested in, especially in terms of how that rslates
'il
- 1 to the NRC, given that we've heard the testimony of fir. Dodds l
e~ from the NRC.
'6 A 17e have a document entitled the Radiological
' ,! Emergency Response Plan which has to do witn he reintion-1 M' ships of Trojan and Portland Gcnaral Electric with tha cther
[
, , , 9ll .y governmental ag.encias in orsgon and liashington, cnd it's 20 really based on'a radiological energency. And that vonid caly
. , , h
~' ba involved if the cuergency rasultad in c. radici:;icci 0
-' ;j{ emergency cutside the isoirtion area of the Troj an gle.nt.
~'
.j Ucu, other situaticns */aich 'acu.d ia < ra
.,-~ _., , . ;
42 :; reporting to the NEC are cov2 red by the t2chnica'. spacifice. tic:-
/ T Q h G fj 'or other NRC regulaticns.
[i; '
,s. .
~
sm wen m e., m . . , _ . . . , [* _
l h 1987' 1 3/~ n 1 ( ). agb2 -
, We also have requirataents to report to the State
- . 4, 2' .
I 3-l _ of Oragen. These are covered in other doculaants. 3 . -
. s But priraarily the reporting requirements to
- e. '.
ll NRC are ccverad in tha tacanical specificttions, which ara ,
., r :1
~ fi, a part of the licenss.
' (
sb [.. Reporting to state authorities, has that been
] Q )
determined by the utility rather than by the NRC7 1 3 l *_ _ _j ._ A .Normally.it's.been_ decided by the..stata regulatory. 3l ,
- se agencies.
t' t en
" ll Q I still don't think I'm getting my c.naWor.
hl - 11 6 l Mr. Dodds refarred to the fact that e.n ensrcency 12. i responsa plan for a seismic event would differ from a nor:aal ()
-t emergency response plan and I'm trying to figura out that 14 difference. I'm somewhat familiar with rna normal emergency 13 response plan.
.3 A When you say the normal emergency respense plan, l
}, .
i are you referring to the radiological emergency responsa
** *! plan? a ;
Q That happens to be the one I'm familiar with, s~
3 ..
3, But I'm just interestad in, if th are's anything extra you
.. !j
' 9 would do in'an u.organcy creatad by a scismic cccurrance.
.1
" ]. A I would, I guass, have to ansutr that question
' " -1, A e%
i in t'..'o . Way3 : 6
'#I :;l The fact that thare's a sais:aic evcat WOuld ha h .. d[ reportabla and wculd bc reported in accordance with Q ~
it y-i.
- 11 ~
d'
_. -~ .
' GI i !! 1980 ! l
[ agb3 technical specifications. If that seismic event resulted in u e a radiological amargency, then there vould be additional j , Ti .
}. ,
[ reporting requirements because of the radiological emargency j G .s
, waich would be identifice in the radiciegice.1 c :.e.rg..ncy ' . ..:; '] l i
[] Q responsa plan. i
! 3.1 }* !
, j, Q Haveyoueverdonoabcmargencyrasponteplan l
, 7 0 \
i drill that included the remoto operation, or a playthrough j
'.. r B t1 - ;
. .; ". .] of the remote shutdown when you were not able to uss ta'e -l k n '. . [., control room? - m .. . p A This has been demonstrat2d, not as a part of a - i! ; l ik radiological emergency drill, but as part of tha preeparatienEl 1
.a ;!,
? test program that was conducted prior to the tima wa brought
.h I / !' the plant into operation.
y '4
- s 1
1 At that time, ue had a formal preoparational l
.{testthatrequiredthatwedemonstratethecapabilityto j
.. *l carry out those functions from outside the control room. l
" ~. i
!]) And that was satisfactorily done.
3 l 1 l 3 Ij
< Q And how long ago was that, appro::imataly? i
. h -
1 N A. That was done in probably November, 1975, i*
, .- it
't
' ~
, just prior to the time we loaded fual !
U .
.>.,1
-1:: Q And just for clarification of vhrer. you said, was .
...s .
that in order to demonstrate the.t one could do it or thaii i 1 l 9 [ the oparat0:0 in tha plant wera 00r.pttant to I,'c 3.bcut thcf.: i i, :
' . 'g.
.g business according to tha procedurcs?
f' (
.. is w ;: A. The primary purposa of that tasa at taa.t time c,. .
S.
?
e w M+ ,wamp. a + -- r+w,,d-. wee s....
_m . . . . _ .. m - - t 1989-I ' l ,.-~. . . y agb4 i was to demonstrate system capabilities.
.v- p, O I! ave you ever done a runthrough of that procedurs 3 -
with the operators at the plant? b' A Chic ia cov:rsd f.n % a trr.inin 'fsca .:he at2ndpoi-i} r 31 of showing than the equipment, the lccationc, the breahors ll
; l . G .I
_ j ,, _ that are used, where people go. But we d: not normally shut down the plant for training pcrposes.
, G Q Dut have you ev_er h.ad a drill uhere you went_ . _ _. . _.
i g*fthroughthiskindo}' I procedure? i' 10 A We'vs done it, cs I mantiencd, i . a we.l't-throttih . l 11 l way, but not as to really oparating tha plant from that 12 ! i lo cat s..on . ( r
' '3
' 1 Q Okay. I didn't mean changing the operatione.1 status, I meant doing a drill in that you wouldn't be saying, 4
15 Okay, let's go down and see what it looks like, but you know, , 16 at a certain timo you would say, Okay, tais is what's 17 happening, see if you know what to do. That kind of drill.
- I8 Has tnat ever happenad?
19 A No, that is not done. 20 l With the minimum number of pcopie you have on 21!! sya l shift, thess people are occupiod with kamping tat.i.: Ej on the real things, and we've not done tua.t. h 23y C Eow me.ny radiological anorgency r.2:7: ? ?. .a ; y :
l
A f drills have you been through since Crojan Scyan cperatt.c-0
'O A Ua havs had a drill every year since 1975, l! ;
1 1 tI i l c-. m , , , . , , , , , + +.p.. _ ,_ . ,,,_ __
e t.
. 1990 .I m j j(~g agbL i
i involvindthevariousstateandfederalregulatoryagencies t g' ; , which are a'part of that drill. J 1 "dP
! _ Q In your last drill, the paople who participate .
e" !l of" ices r.d
', on the off-sito cc r.unicationa and olf-si".a
' ~
"t state offices and agencios in both Gregon and Washington
,1 r2
[: expressed a lot of concern about the fact that the communi-
;e 5 7 oation was, in my words, fairly terrible. They were pratty fe e
upset. What, if anything, has been dona to improve night
-4 I communications for emergency responso planc?
I Nk A UcIl I guess,I attended that c::itique and I M . don't romer$cr hearing those aame uords, so I'm at a lose i to !
! as to how to answar that quection.
M ;i
/ w\ - Q Okay. 11ow would you evaluata the night responsa
\ l Ml E in the last drill?
1
!$ 1 MR. DAdKS: 1ir. Chairman, I tnink this is ir-13l relovant tp safe shutdown, which is what we're here for.
l 17 ' CIIAIRMAN MILLER: It is getting pratty fhr from
. 18 that field, I think.
P M; MR. KAFOURY: May I be heard very briefly?
/ II 20 I CIIAIRMAN MILLER: Vary briefly, bacause we're j
- i h $ into matters now that, with or without stsel, I don't quits i l l'i y: see it haaring on the issus of interin operaticn. l 0
3 5 ,,' MS. BELL: U211 there are c coup' m ^^ 6M-es. I
- ~
M ; One is that tha testim ny cf Mr. Withers sr.ys e V ti 'that - he describcs the capabilit r of tha plcnt to functicn ~ ,
'i
' 'l y
o
. ._ _'f . - _ . . _ . _ - _ _ . . . _ , _ . _ _ . __ __
, .;_.._ . .m an . - ..._..u2.....-
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' i.
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? i 1991
; 1- -1 I
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.agb6 and the plant staff to respond properly immediately following
-) j
; % 2+
.the seismic event. -
3- , . C:fAIIO1AN MILLER: I take it that's referring to
.N U safe shutdown, isn't liq unich is the iccuc /.cra?
it i
* ~ li MS. EELL: Okay.
i a fj l l 5. A i
. ,,- l. To me, safs. shutdown also involvos the ability -
, 7' l - .
{ to commin11cate during the night. ;) i
, 9 J* C11AI.64 MILLER: _Well..ncw there's where I think
. , . _ . . __.. _ . i 1
' e we may be differing, because I don't believo that tue ability 1
10 1
'l to come to a safe shutdown at a level of 0.03 or 0.11 is 1 n b
- i logically related to what happens thereafter in r.he country-2 4 4
*~
side or elsewhero. Not to say thosa are not important, they j p g ! g are, but we're concerned now with the OBE safe suutdown, )
'4 which is a narrower issue and that's why we've given you 15 latitude. We know you're interested in the m. ttar but you '
'i
*6 have just about sons to the periphery.
U ' MS. DELL: I won't pursue tala, but I do believe l 18 r that at some point today, that a question was that -- l 3 , 1 19 1 I 4 . that in the middle of tile night -- or maybe this was Mr. Dodds' s- ' og
, , -- in the middle of tae night would there'be a differenca? .
I I'
". 1
' }! And it seemed to ne that tne cerr.unication .iould not te as 1 .
M b immediata and prcmpt.
- ,ml!
" '; CII.UEIOl! MILL 2R: That *:as 20tificati.03 to h.C, l l
8 ! C 1 *M N wasn't it? l l-
% Il MS. BELL: I believe so.
U r' r i v-
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- s agb7 '.' CIIAIIG,1AN HILLBR: Which.again bears upon safa l(GA : 'k i
h shutdown, which is an operation that takes a little time. *
- a.
Q
-- : I don't think that it's concerned with the countryside, r, .' '
thcugh, as s't.ch. Wo don't depr:.ca a the nscausit-j c2 ,1 1 - d t what you're interested in but I don't believe this is the i.
' {. "
tims and place. You've had a lot of latitude en it. f
" 3: , . . . _ .. ._j _ _ . - We'll_ sustain _tha_9biection.
d[ . us. BELL: I have a couple of mora qusstiens about t 9~ d emargency response plans which I think are releve.nt and I , J t
;i will try.
se .% 7
- ! BY Ms. DELL:
11 N 1 1, l** J Q Excusing the fact that my'interpretatien might
'V t i t*
.h . be somewhat different than yours, is it a true str.tomant t
M-[ that PGE ba'ically s first developed a phone-tree type of k
<g.y
. - . p, ,
communication as opposed to a more linear single-string type 4 4
..,k.
b-of phone communication just recently, after the icst li
- Jo . .-
Il emergency response plan drill? 4 4 -
"' t;;' MR. BANKS: I have the-same objechion, Mr.
e, * - a
}t -
l ,
~ i .' Chairman. -
p
- M :.f CILMRMAN MILLER: The sama ::uli.1g. S uct 2.incf..
2T. - [ ny us, scLL: d I4 .' G Is the nuxiliary fcadge::p coerc. tion i.tcle.d:d in
,- F d n, the emergency response plan drill t..at ycu do for the plant?
?J ~ A- (Nitness Withers) I don't b2lieve it has J
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5-gg,ygagtimp'q g qwW# g + pW W M*' ' W sm G.m = n *gue NW
- M h*48- '"'Y'*
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)
i 1993 agb8 been in any of the drills we ran to this point.
)
lY[ i 2 Q- And in terms of what happened in the last drill f .
!. ' 3l internally, that is, inside the plant, how long did it taks '
[
;j
.to locata the problem that was hypothesi =ad in tne drill?
1
* !! A . I do not remember the exact number of minutes I* s !,,: .
I !' it took, but would like to stress that there is a big differ-- ; ence in noting a piece of paper taped to a pipe that says , f G you have a .. problem and walking into a room where you e actually have noise, sound', small, staam and things like
~[
10 i this happening. N I do not believe that you can totally draw conclusions from that kind of a drill and beliavo t.w.t tha
', U response in that particular case was good for tho kind of I4 a drill that was performed.
l 15 Would you say that it took about 50 :ninutes, I Q
- l I6 though, to locate?
l l I7 A ]' Did you say 50, 5-0. !
- e
'O Q Yes.
l s .
'0- From.the beginning of -
U , A As I say, I can't remember the exact number i i 7 ! but that sounds in the right order of magnitude. i
.. i ,
*J Q ' Thank you. l
! L ~ U' Could you tell me whc wcs ren; cnnible fcr nc=:ity l , i- - e' MJ during constructicn? ' a
- q %j ,
A (ilitness nreehle) The resid.nt engineer. 11e
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_ .. _.2. 1 h 1994 i< t i i Il. !? e agb9 (
)
delegated this to Bechtal Corporation.
^
2[ Q And.did they have a subcontract with a security [
* :1,1 3 agency?
.P A Yes.
- N.
. ~ ..
Q And do you knew what that asancy vcs?
- I
! 1
.. 1 A I don't recall.
1.
'I lj p Q Who would know that information? f a
Si! A. I can'get-that-information.
',j
*1, - __
o, .. .
' i; Q I would like that. -
10 y
- g. A (Witness Withers) The contract durin>J constructicr; I:
. was with Bur s Security.
!2 l*i
, Q Now that was basically the personnoi involved
. T. .
\ / i in security. Were there also physical maans of security ll
- a c
! such as, I believe you point out to begin the groundwork i
,# I for the modification in this case. ,
,c I f Is that' question clear?
b CIIAIR@l4 MILLER: ilot to ne, it isn' S. . I dcn't if
' I5 understand it.
I!, t .. Y 1. l
+.
! BY MS. BELL: '
" "cy Q I'll start with a littic ,enplan:ticn.
- j. When I went out to see tha pl:nt, in tha e.rca
- 0
" l. b-near where they vera considering putting up tha codification,
'"' I they uar3 beginning to put u;/ .' nn a s "h'. :. .
I he:.ic73 I we.s s
'" I.
.'.~ '
y told by Mr. Erichsen of PGS, was for security er soucthing
.o
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;, lika that. And I want to kncu what the physical typcc of
.e.+ %.
- y . "
. _ . . _ .. ~ , _ . .._._ . . . _.. . ! 1995
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, 4 v ;,1 (k
') avbl0 security that were used during construction were.
. i(/ 2 MR. GRAY: I'm going to object to this line of f ; i 3
, y questioning. I don't really believe it's relevant at all, l
i y( : (j unlass us. lloll can show tha rsl.sve.ncy.
+.
C11AIltimi MILLER: Yss, what is tne relsvancy? I 6I i ' l ,, MS. DELL: { The-relevanco is simply that I'm i, , concerned with certain errors that wara -- that happened i i . a y during_. construction.Whereas I.realif.e we're disqussing _
. ~. .
design error the implementation of'the design is also relevant. And security of the plant is important in terms
'l .
1 iI of its operation, also in terms of its construction. 1
. ... C11TCRMAN MILLER: Are you speakint; of prest.nt
' g). 13 security or future security of the Trojan plant as is? i M If you are, that might be one araa. If you're
.33 going back into history of security, it might be an interesting:
1 1 16 exercise, but frankly tnere is the plant, it's licensed to j l .
- .' .I ' operate, the question is whether or not - as you know -- '
I I r- '6 tas two factors. So, does it make any differance? s . 3I I3' j ;
- s. ,
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1996 [ 31 I
- WRB/mpbl. I Did any of the four of you on the panol partici-l , /^ 2 j.; pate in meetings with Professors Holley and Dresler?
l d
!' A (Witness Droehl) I did, .
( 5 {ef ' A (Witness Christencon) I attonchi 't think ene n
,. 5['meetingwiththem.
a j
- 2.180 '3 ;}
s Q And with Bochtel?
. 7- f. A Yes.
~
<- -., S. ,'i -
MR. BANKS: May I ask a point of clarification? 3f Are you referring to prior to the hearings? l 10 ' MS. DELL: Yoc. DY MS. DELL:
... O Could you tell mc what Jerry Self's pocition is
.' 15 in PGE?
t
;/, ; A (Witness Withers) I can answer that questicn.
15 ,. Jerry Self is a plant engineer empicyed at Trojan f j ,1 within the engineering group at the plant.
.I s
,y ,
Q And what are his responsibilities, briefly? j I , . A He would have responsibility for certain plant s y .
,g ; systems,handlindtheengineeringproblems,reviewofdata,
*. .:1
. 2a d, and so forth, involved with those systems under his respon-
, j {!:
sibility. 1
.7 0r. 0 In this local area where would One go to find r .
2 ',; out the magnitude of sn aarthquc?<e? r
.,-~ 3,; $ It was referred to, I believe, by Mr. Codds, than
['N " !i 5j one could go to a university in the Day aren to check cut what 1 e 1 I;
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/~ - mpb2 1' was happening. Do you happen to know whers one would go in l f' 2 -
'this area? I i )
! 3- A (Ifitness Christensen) I'm not sure what you're - !
4, referring to, rsally. I have just a.cupposition thr.S you'ra '
- i
-j . 5 referring to the University of California,in the sar.2 way with ?
. ? i different colleges around maintain seismographs that record 9'[g - ,i 7l -
these earthquakes, and in doing so they estimate their magni'- ; i t
)
, 'a ); tude, c
. . . . - - .__ _ . . _ _ _ _ _ . , _ _ . , ._. _~,
74 .... - -_ 9l Okay. Q I 10 : And what would be the closest place around ;
, , s
'l, Portland to go to for that information? }
l 12, , Either the Univorcity of Washington or even CMSI 7
!\ /
\ 13 ( does, and Oregon State College does.
1
, 'q Q Where would PGE go if they were trying to find j '
15 ! that out? , 1 ! ! i A 11here is the location of the earthquake? ! l
. Q Well, we're talking aEcut -- I hope we'ra talking I
i i' j '
, ;) { about the fact that we're at the Trojan Plant and somebcdy out
> j, . I
; y ,' there is -- ( l t
t P s . t;
! p,c ;; A I think we have our own scismegraphs.
! t I
g[o Q Wr; were talking about being able to check out '
,h seismographs against other saismographs.
r 3
" 3 A Well --
n 8 us CIIAIR!!All MILLER: I think that's enough.
,g Proceed.
- x. .
*% + me=es a . . mr+epw.es<.- 1-= = m e.g.t - gw .s ,wp, g.m.e.- ...su. %
l v. 3 . j 1998 i i mpb3 1 q , BY !E.' BELL: I
' V*, 3 i
fl 0 Are there any parts in the accelerographs at I ( l l Trojan that need to be sent out for analys'i3?
' 3 !!
N A (Mitness Christanssa) We vould undcuttedly send s
, ;i-:I the tir.e-history out to have semabody ancI.yna it further i g 4h af ter we had obtained, say, peak values off of it.
. n 7 O And where would that go?
il ..#.". ._A Well, we hava checked it -- check at a ccuple of 7(! 4 ah locations. One would be, that .I remember of, wculd be Ingall M !! Corporation in Los Angeles. n. 11 'il Q Coos any member of the panel have any idea why q 2.fc 'j PGE is withdrawing their necd for power testimony? p MR. BAliKS: I think their ansuer,to that I gave
;.; h. in my opening statement, and that was based.upon what the n
c;g !! Chair's statement was at the prehearing conference as to 1 o 3; f what was relevant.
.)
,- MS. DELL: Okay. Thank you,
,. :(hV BY ZG. BELL:
;gI Q Do y'ou know why !!r. Dunning, who was the first a
j , e resident engineer during construction, resi7ned his post? 2; A .(Witness Drcehl) Yes. t.i g, [ -O Can you tall to why, briefly?
;r, A IIe was offered a bottor job.
.q s
g; , C11AIRfDN 11 ILLER: IIe made c trcda-off of meney O I g g for prestig.s, you night say.
.g.
5 u h . . - . _ _ . . . _ _ _ .._ _ _ _
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m.=2; -- - - 2 22. a_ _,,7;n.;; - - _ _ -- - - ;;_,_ . _ _ __
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I fmpb4 (Laughter.) f L' ]1 ' ' 10[
- d. BY MS. DELL s
i 3 ,, Q You spoke of changes that were recommended by fi
' :, Bechtel to the construction =anager.
. . 5.-' Here there any changes that trere dona by Bechtel, 1 .
, b' who was in fact a designer and engineer, that were not routed ;
l' ,
, 1 !* 7d through recommending it to PGE and then having it okayed and !
B j. having it done? [_!1
.e (
~~" '
A (Uitness Droehl) No. ' l
; in Q Again, very briofly, could you tell me why there t
4 j it were more Dechtel people -- up to 90 you said -- ensito tcwar2
.- the end of construction if nechtel in fact was responsible 1
l[ ) . .a '. simply for overseeing and quality assurance? l\ l 14 : A They were responsible for managing the construc-il 9 And as a rule of thumb, it taken in a manage-e 13ll'tioncontracts. q d ment staff approximately one person for every ten in the field. H l
.,j And we had 500 to 1000 in the field during the peak of j ; ;g construction.
b . 9l That was the time when Bechtel had 90 and we had l l i
. 20 10 or so. I g; Q What'is your understanding of the history behind
;jU the sense or the feeling that there might b2 a deficiency of I
~t t
steel in the west wall? y gl A I don't really understand your question.
.,5 Q Okay. Mell,-that's a good enouch ans;/er, then.
g ..
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4
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- ;g 2000 ;
i y 2npb5 1 (Laughter.)
?)
i-
~~' {
. 2 ll You talked about the quality assurance program ;
i f 4 i a that Bechtel did, and they were overseen by PGE,'cnd that
~
g j , j , included what you firch torm:d audit end inc;c: tion, .nd ther l t
.3 ; ' . _you spoke'lator of surveillance chachs on thu vorh.
l . e, a i 34:a . What exactly is a surveillanca check?
' l-I 7 j.
.g A That's going out and looking at the work to see )
a $. what's going on. 6 7.- _ _ _ _ . _ _ _ . . _ _ _ __ . . . _ _ Q So that's basically an inspection? It's ano dier I t s '.! I 1 d' word for incpection? E l
;) '
i A Yes. i l 1 l t , O You said the NRC Staff visited during construc~ l q) . tion.
- .4 Was thera one person who camo out each time, or i
.i
;3 .j was it just a different person?
- a. A There were several people uho came out, sometimes 4,
. 4
-. y two and three persons on a single inspection. }
i i 1 l
! .,, aq 0- And were records kept, or do you know cf any y ! . ,
. ,, li records that were kept of what they inspected? i
- l y :j. A They prepared en audit report which was sent to l l 1
' l PGE following the inspections which noted all tho'results of I 1
.l .
7 ,, the inspection, any ncnconformancas F.nd what required folleu-un acticn wcs c:m.scted of uc. t
.-- .,4 d Those are all-a matter cf public record.
f Nt g I
.n, b, Q Newf in the Licensee's responses to Consolidaced (v)h.' .i !
9
'e
'h h
t ~ms.. .e-.,-o.pr- *,,v.sw. ,--m mwe
, , , , .,_g.,. n,,,_ . _ , , . , _ ,
.[ i 2001 1 i
mpb6 1, d')' , ,, l 1 Intervenors -- no,. wait a minute.-- yes, the consolidated i U"' 2 7 Intervenors that was received by the Licensee August 14 and
- h i e i
3 l.{ responded to on August 19, Interrogatory 8, and the response sf J. l. to Interrogatory 8 --
'l .
,, 5: CHAIRMMI MILLER: Ms. Eell, how soon will you be !
=
4 :: j S 1,' finished, do you think? ; l
= 7i MS. DELL: I'd say between an hour and tuo. ,
! 4 1
9{p CHAIRMAN MILLER:
, I suggest we're going to take p1 a recess and I would suggest seriously you cut dcwn very
( ! I in.!! significantly. I il ! t 1 ii We've given you considerable latiW'= "cu in the 33 first hour, but -- well, think it over. .
,3[
Recess. 14 n (Recess.) Il l 4a f1ws 15 CHAIRMAM MILLER: All right. , 4A T-146 S2 , 3 You may proceed. , I g , BY MS. BELL: , 4 .
- 3g . O When we ended we were on page 4 of the Licensee i t
b sg responses to Consolidated Intervenors' Interrogatories, dated !
,a * , ge , August 19.
2* p The response to Interrogatory 8, Section 3,
.,. l there's a reference to cne train of 4160V switch-gear. Is 1 -
this the sans thing as the DBA, or the desig . Sasis accident
..., :g, c.
3 !j! sequencers?
; l A (Witness Droehl) Uo.
(v/ w'
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d*I 4 Mygp '49%.y4 41 ,' WSt e.e$ a.Oqi-' r .4se g g -
.og _g.
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~4.
,O - l mpb7 Q.
1, 1ll .
.It is not.
o a:' 1 *- 2 A No.. 1' .l
'l - '1 '
3 ii . Q Are the DBA sequencers housed in the-contrei ..
-.. ;, t 4
; b building? !
t A Yes. '{ 3 .}t Q- And are they safety-related equipment? );-
.a 7 tj .,
A Yes. .I i
't d'p.
C Why aren't they on-._....- this list, or mn I missing 't
-H I
a ,[ something? A ] I 9 , Item C-1, they're part c:? that equi:n. tent. n
.: O 0.iay. Thank you. '
>? Are you aware of a stata.snt : rea by Dr. Fdad x
Miller, who is the present director of the Department of g,
\v Energy, who said on September 20, 1977:
; i l3y. " Reoccurring equipment :.lalfunctions in
- I j y, - the plant's design basis cecident sequencer:
y over the past 21 months has pre.mpted a request ) I zg ' to the Nuclear Regulatory Commission." b .
,3 A Yes. (
t n o l
. c Q You.are, okay. j
.n .], MS. BELL: I would like tn pass out copies of thi {
s s
~,
It to the pertiss end offer it in evidence for icentificatien. [.'
.]. ' > , (Distributing documents.)
.o -
,T ,
. ;li, CHAIEMAN HILLER: Is Dr. Miller c:nnse.d 7. h the O ,, l,i State of Oregon? -
.. a y C.'.
't
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;t q -e rm@Je vg - y W4,e4 e - '
m 4 y e ,h 4 ? e%igema.- n e them .I 4 4m
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.22. . .
a _ _ m m .. c _. ~ . . .
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- i. ,
I i 2003 . i a :. i mpb8 I MR. SOCOLOFSKY: IIe's the director of the Energy . [
'I Department.
'i 9 :1 h
}
'I
.i .[y ,
CIIAIRlWI MILLER: Is he available for testimony? l. . t , f 4 )E MR. SOCOI0FSIC: I think he's de'.cn tha hell. I; d- + j' , Sd CIIAIRIIAN MILLER: This, then, is a hoarscy docu- { i = 11 '., ment? , s !! s
- 7 (,a MR. SOCOLOFSICl: I don't know anything about this
~
O ! Sji document. I'm only representing them in this case. 2
, 9[, CHAIR!UCT liILLER: I believe it's a press. release. ;'~ . 1 I
mi.f. MR. KAFOURY: To my understanding,. it would be a 1 . t
' basis for questioning,'Mr. Chairman, rather than -- '
1
- v. MR. SOCOLOFSKY: Do ycu unnt me to see if I can .
) 9 - get him to identify this?
14 CIIAIRMAN MILLER: l7o. I just wanted to know l 15 j about his availability if we were going to get a hearsay docu-i
- ] ment.
.: You've given me the facts on that. . ;
, I t'
J
-]
- BY MS. BELL: !
1 I { , Q Would you like a little time to look over this?
; fg i It's relatively brl.ef. 3
~ 23 ,, MR. 3ANKS: !!r. Chairman, I think befo::a 'they'::e ,
- g. asked questions about this document we ra going to havs to find! 2
' . out if they,can identify the document. All they have been .
i, I .
,, 1 g '; asked before'is if they knew Mr. Miller me.de sc=c sort of a * '
l~
-s y *
. ' statement.
7 , i . .CIIAIIUiAlf MILL?,R Yes. .Q
' ~ '
1 - h
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II ._ - . . . . . - . _ . . . _ . _ . . . -- u .~ u _ . , , .. .. . _ . _ _ . _
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1 u >
. 2004 .
-j. I 4 i mpb9 i. BY MS, BELL: f),t k' 2j
'l Q Have you seen this doc .nent before that you have 1 j .I a y before you, this press release?
a (. i)
< ' i- A (Witnass Dr00hl) Ho. * '
t.
. n' Q But you are awara of ecms of th2 stator.ents made l I* i 4 . within it, is that correct? ;
. :t
. i. ;
A I'm aware of the subject problem. s 7if.
- Q Who among you said a minute ago that you were ?
- 0(y. . _ _ . . _ __
3 :.i aware.that he had made'that statement? -4
.i l.
o -i A I did.
*. Q Is that truo? f
- <,. A Yes, I'm aware he made the stater..:at. !
.3 Q Okay.
v .- y CHAIRMAN MILLER: This press release that you iS . have handed'out, simply for purposes of the record, will be
< ! marked for identification, Consolidated Intervenors numbar ,.
. i
') !!l One.
i ; i eq/ (Whersupon, the document j
= -
I pg !; referred to wms marhod as j
. ,1 ,
. 3.0 .! Consolidated Intarvonors 1i i r .
g for idontificatien.) $
"*i. .>
,, i,
..e ,
. 'CHAIRfW1 LLER: ' Rcwe' sr. befcre it can bc used i
y. A 3 there is going to have., to be foundation prcef Ic'.d. .~. d d.wa k$
,- 4 } is no use taking time going into matters tharc un12:s you'r: '
/~N ..
A (
. 3' .i going to be able to estchlish some right to use this.
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