ML20245A597
| ML20245A597 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Seabrook  |
| Issue date: | 04/18/1989 |
| From: | Atomic Safety and Licensing Board Panel |
| To: | |
| References | |
| CON-#289-8550 ASLBP, OL, NUDOCS 8904250285 | |
| Download: ML20245A597 (308) | |
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O UNITED STATES !
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION )
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'1 ATOMIC SAFETY AND LICENSING BOARD l'
In the Matter of: )
) Docket Nos.
PUBLIC SERVICE COMPANY OF ) 50-443-OL NEW HAMPSHIRE, et al., ) 50-444-OL ,
) OFF-SITE EMERGENCY l (SEABROOK STATION, UNITS 1 AND 2) ) PLANNING EVIDENTIARY HEARING O
Pages: 19408 through 19630 Place: Boston, Massachusetts Date: April 18, 1989 I
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HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION ,
ofI omerR,=ars 0t p/rr#& 1220 L Street, N.W., Sedte 600 A0D. M grE pl0A su ug Washington, D.C. 20005 (2e23 62s.4s::
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".%. 1. . l h_..[' 19408 UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY: COMMISSION
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ATOMIC SAFETY'AND LICENSING BOARD
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In the Matter of: ).
j ;. , -) Docket Nos.
'-PUBLIC SERVICE COMPANY OF ) 50-443-OL y 4 NEW HAMPSHIRE, et al.',. ) 50-444-OL. .
) OFF-SITE EMERGENCY !
c '(SEABROOK STATION, UNITS.1 AND 2) ) PLANNING.
, .. , EVIDENTIARY HEARING u
y
" Tuesday, April 18, 1989 Auditorium Thomas P. O'Neill, Jr.
Federal Building 10 Causeway Street 1
< < Boston, Massachusetts
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The above-entitled matter came on for hearing,
. pursuant to notice, at 9:00 a.m.
BEFORE: JUDGE IVAN W. SMITH, CHAIRMAN
, .; Atomic Safety and Licensing Board
- l. U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission Wasbington, D.C. -20555 JUDGE KENNETH A. McCOLLOM, Member Atomic Safety and Licensing Board' U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission Washington, D.C. 20555' JUDGE RICHARD F. COLE, MEMBER Atomic Safety and Licensing Board U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission Washington, D.C. 20555
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Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 1
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,, 19409 APPEARANCES:-
For the Acolicant:
THOMAS G. DIGNAN, JR., ESQ.
GEORGE-H. LEWALD, ESQ.
(; KATHRYN'A. SELLECK, ESQ.
JAY BRADFORD SMITH, ESQ.
JEFFREY P. TROUT, ESQ.
GEOFFREY.C. COOK, ESQ.
Ropes.& Gray
,- One International Place Boston,, Massachusetts 02110-2624 f
For the NRC Staff:
SHERWIN E. TURK, ESQ.
- i .' ELAINE I. CHAN, ESQ.
EDWIN J. REIS,.ESQ.
Office'of General Counsel U.S. Nuclear' Regulatory Commission Washington, D.C. 20555 For the Federal Emercan_cy Manaaement Acency:
-[ H. JOSEPH FLYNN, ESQ.
LINDA HUBER McPHETERS, ESQ.
Federal Emergency Managewant Agency 500 C Street, S.W.
Washington, D.C. 20472 f.,
For the Commonwealth of Massachusetts:
JAMES M. SHANNON, ATTY. GEN..
JOHN C. TRAFICONTE, ASST. ATTY. GEN.
ALLAN R. FIERCE, ASST. ATTY. GEN.
PAMELA~TALBOT, ASST. ATTY. GEN.
MATTHEW BROCK, ESQ..
LESLIE B. GREER, ESQ.
Common.4sith of Massachusetts One Ashburton Place, 19th Floor Boston, Massachusetts 02108 Heritage Reporting Corporation O. (202) 628-4888
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.s 19410 e APPEARANCES: (Continued)
For the State of New Hamoshire:
GEOFFREY M. HUNTINGTON, ASST. ATTY. GEN.
State of New Hampshire 25 Capitol Street Concord, New Hampshire 03301 For the Seacoast Anti-Pollution League:
ROBERT A. BACKUS, ESQ.
Backus, Meyer &-Solomon
. 116 Lowell Street P.O. Box 516 Manchester, New Hampshire 03105 JANE DOUGHTY, Director Seacoast Anti-Pollution League 5 Market Street Portsmouth, New Hampshire 03801 For the Town of Amesburv:
BARBARA J. SAINT ANDRE, ESQ.
L Kopelman and Paige, P.C.
77 Franklin Street Boston, Massachusetts WILLIAM LORD Town Hall
. Amesbury, Massachusetts 10913 For the City of Haverhill and Town of Merrimac:
ASHOD N. AMIRIAN, ESQ.
P. O. Box 38 Bradford, Massachusetts 01835 For the City of Newburyport:
BARBARA J. SAINT ANDRE, ESQ.
JANE O'MALLEY, ESQ.
Kopelman and Paige, P.C.
77 Franklin Street Boston, Massachusetts 02110 Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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19411 m
APPEARANCES: (Continued) l.\ '
For the Town of Newbury:
R. SCOTT HILL-WHILTON, ESQ.
Lagoulis, Clark, Hill-Whilton & McGuire 79 State Street Newburyport, Massachusetts 01950 For the Town of Salisburv:
CHARLES P. GRAHAM, ESQ.
Murphy and Graham
, 33 Low Street Newburyport, Massachusetts 01950 For the Town of West Newbury:
JUDITH H. MIZNER, ESQ.
Second Floor 79 State Street Newburyport, Massachusetts 01950 For the Atomic Safety and Licensino Board:
- 73 -
ROBERT R. PIERCE, ESQUIRE Atomic Safety and Licensing Board Panel U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission Washington, D.C. 20555 e
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4 WITNESSES: DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS EXAM i l
Panel: j Maureen Mangan John Paolillo by Mr. Brock 19420 by Mr. Lewald 19444
' by.Ms. Chan ,
19476 by Judge Mc2ollom 19480 by Judge Cole. 19481.
Guy Daines (Prefiled) 19515 19628 by Ms. Greer 19514 by Ms. Selleck- 19516 by'Ms. Chan 19530 by Judge McCollom 19559~
by Judge; Cole 19565 by Ms. Talbot 19575 by Ms. Selleck 19594-Arthur Lonergan O (Prefiled) 19605 V by Ms. Talbot by Mr.. Cook 19605 19607 by Ms. Chan 19622 by Ms. Talbot 19625 .
b EXHIBITS: IDENT. REC. REJ. DESCRIPTION:
Apolicants':
62 19608 19627 Congregate Care Center survey 2-7-89 e
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(. 'I "j 19412A
-% 1HQEX (Continued)
, . INSERTS:
DESCRIPTIONS: PAGE:
Testimony of Maureen Mangan and John Paolillo, on behalf-of Attorney General James M.
Shannon, regarding the actual availability of the SPMC's manned vehicles and drivers (February 21, 1989) 19429
.',. Commonwealth of Massachusetts-testimony of Guy Daines on the inadequacies of the SPMC as it
' pertains to special populations in the emergency planning zone 19515 Testimony of Arthur Lonergan on behalf of the Attorney
, General for the Commonwealth
!. of Massachusetts regarding JI-54 19605 O
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19413 V 1 EEQQEEQ1HGE L*. -
- 2. JUDGE SMITH: Good morning.
3 Is there any preliminary business?
4 MR. DIGNAN: Yes, Your Honor.
5 I want to be sure I under. stand the schedule we are 6 headed for. My understanding is that these two witnesses 7 will be finished up, to be followed by Mr. Daines, and then
, 8 by Mr. Lonergan, the Attorney General. And then the 9 question is where we go from there. It seems to me that the 10 following should be clear.
11 The Applicants wish to be sure that Katherine 12 Barnicle will testify before Mr. Sikich, because M'. r Sikich 13 relies on Barnicle, and it doesn't make much sense to cross-14 examine Mr. Sikich before you cross-examine the testimony
)
15 that he's relying on. And I can't get assurances that that 16 is the case on this yet. So I guess I need a ruling from
, 17 the Board.
18 We've also got the problem that we still haven't 19 been furnished even the redacted version of the Barnicle 20 notes.
21 Now the reason I bring this up is because I know 22 what we plan in terms of cross-examinati.on for Daines and 23 Lonergan, and it's not very long on either one. And so we 24 are going to be running into a hiatus here, or the Board is 25 just going to have to perhaps reject my views on this and Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
19414 f- ~s 1 say we've got to go forward in whatever order the Attorney
2 General wants. But it makes no sense to me to cross-examine 3 Sikich on his piece that relies on Barnicle unless we've had 4 Barnicle on the stand and cross-examined Barnicle first, 5 because the Barnicle cross may reveal areas that we don't 6 even have to ask Sikich any questions about in light of the 7 fact that the Barnicle testimony does or does not hold up.
, 8 MR. BROCK: Your Honor, the first point is Leslie 9 Greer is the one who would be handling Ms. Barnicle. And 10 with respect to the order of witnesses, as I understood the 11 general practice, the Mass AG would be putting on witnesses 12 and had the burden of going forward with evidence. But 13 subject to meeting people's schedules, that we could 14 allocate the witnesses as we saw fit.
15 Having said that, we may be able to accommodate 16 Mr. Dignan, but I would need to check with Ms. Greer on
, 17 that. And another point I would make is, as far as just 18 going through today, I think Mr. Dignan is correct that the 19 Mangan-Paolillo panel should be finished by today. That 20 then Mr. Daines will testify. Then the question is whether 21 Applicants are going to put on their rebuttal panel to the ;
l 22 Mangan-Paolillo piece or not. And as I understand it, there 23 has not been a decision even yet on that point.
24 MR. DIGNAN: Now, Mr. Brock, you know different 25 than that. We have made it crystal clear to you what the O Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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The decision is if I made it today and jr g i decision on that is.
' there was no further examination of these witnesses, it 2
3 would be pulled.
4 My only reason for holding out on this has been 5 that you haven't finished with these witnesses, and the
"' 6 reason you haven't finished with these witnesses is because
,. 7 you didn't follow through on your commitment to come up with
,- 8 the. marked up version of their testimony, and I understand 9 that's what killed all of the last day's session after I 10 -left.
11 Now that's the problem of why there isn P a formal 12 withdrawal of that piece. And the AG's office knows it.
13 MR. BROCK: Mr. Dignan, first of all, you are 14 commenting on events which apparently you weren't even here 15 for. But I think Mr. Dignan has confirmed that as yet 16 Applicants have not made a decision on that, Your Honor.
, 17 And so we are prepared to go forward, and we will at the 18 break check with Ms. Greer, if she's not here before, and 19 try to confirm and there may not be a dispute on the matter.
20 Your Honor, for the record, we have 21 distributed --
22 MR. DIGNAN: Wait a minute, Mr. Brock, I'm not 23 finished with my preliminary matters yet.
24 Your Honor, at this time two other matters. I 25 would like to note also, with respect to the Sikich cross-Heritage Reporting Corpor et ion
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i 19416 1 examination, we are still awaiting the publications of Mr.
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There 2 Sikich. These were first requested on March 30, '89.
3 has been a number of discussions in between. The last one 4 was for awhile they wanted payment in advance. That 5 apparently has been resolved, but we still have the problem 6 of we have yet to receive Mr. Sikich's publications which 7 also is a problem in putting this cross-examination
, 8 together, 9 Next, what I would like to do is also ask the 10 Board ' o sign a subpoena form which is directed to Impell 11 Corporation. This goes to records we want from Impell i
12 concerning Mr. Sikich's qualifications. And Impell has, 13 general counsel has advised us that they are prepared to
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14 produce the records to us, but they wish to have a subpoena 15 obviously for legal purposes. And we ask the Board to sign I
16 that subpoena so that we may have it served in due course.
, 17 MR. BROCK: Your Honor, there f.s one point that I 18 don't think Mr. Dignan has commented on. As I understand 19 it, I have not directly conferred with Mr. Sikich on it, but i
20 it's my understanding that Mr. Sikich, through his company, 21 is prepared to provide the publications that are requested, 22 but the copying costs are extensive and there has been a 23 request for a thousand dollars to cover those costs and --
24 MR. DIGNAU: That's gone away, Mr. Brock. They 25 aren't requesting that any more.
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gw 1 aren't requesting that any more.
1
2 MS. SELLECK: They are billing us directly.
3 MR. DIGNAN: They are billing us directly. l 4 MR. BROCK: Your Honor, as Mr. Dignan has just 5 pointed out, we are for the first time this. morning u.
6 receiving a copy of Applicants' objection in -- a motion in 7 limine regarding the Guy Daines' testimony. Mr. Daines is' r 8 probably going to be testifying later this morning. And I f
9 haven't had an opportunity to read this motion, but I would 10 point out that Applicants appear to have adopted the l 11 practice of every time we are about to put on a panel, we 12 get one of these motions. Obviously, we are disadvantaged 13 by not having the opportunity to'go.through the record or ;
( ) 14 review law or otherwise fully prepare, f 15 MR..DIGNAN: Your Honor, could I point out i 16 something?
, 17 I am perfectly -- I am perfectly --
18 MR. BROCK: May I finish this --
19 MR. DIGNAN: No, you may not.
20 JUDGE SMITH: Let him finish, Mr. Dignan. l 21 MR. DIGNAN: No, Your Honor, I'm sick of this.
22 JUDGE SMITH: Now, Mr. Dignan, just a moment. Let 23 him finish his point. I anticipate what you are going to 24 say I th3nk I can already predict this argument down to
. 1 25 its conclusion. In your remarks tell us what the schedule Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 1
19418-
'6 1 limine.
- 2. MR. . BROCK: Your Honor, certainly if there is 3 point that for whatever reason Applicants have'not been able 4 to file something-further in advance of testimony,"we 5 understand that motions have to be filed.
6 But the point is, if there are issues which 7 Applicants are aware, that they know-that they are going to
. 8 be asking the Board to' exclude, that we would simply ask 9 whatever reasonable time is, at least to - you know, a 10 couple of days to respond.
11 JUDGE SMITH: .All right, Mr. Dignan.
12 MR. DIGNAN: 'Your Honor, I would point out, first 13 of all, that I have a perfect right to sit here, let the l
( 14 witness take the stand and make my objection for the first 15 time when the testimony is-offered. That's point one.
16 Point two, we started very early in this case, and.
. 17 as the Board recognized as a courtesy to the parties of 18 doing these in writing, giving them to people in advance so 19 that they would have the advantage of knowing what was 20 coming, the Board would have the advantage of knowing what 21 was coming.
22 The motion in limine concept is a pure courtesy.
23 It's not required by the rules and regulations. We would be 24 perfectly free to let Mr. Daines get on the stand and let 25 Mr. Brock hear our problem for the first time right there.
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fs 1 Mr. Brock hear our problem for-the first. time right there.
'2 That's a frivolous objection..
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3 JUDGE SMITH: Okay. He's.not making an. objection.
4 He's making a complaint, I guess.
5 MR. DIGNAN: Well, it's a frivolous complaint. ;
'j 6 JUDGE. SMITH: Mr. Brock..
7 MR. DIGNAN: That's all I had, Your Honor. Thank
- .', 8 you..
9 MR. BROCK. Your Honor, for the record, we have 10 ' distributed copies of what's entitled " Testimony of Maureen 11 Mangan,and John Paolillo on Behalf of Attorney General James 12 H. Shannon Regarding the Actual Availability of the SPMC's 13 Manned vehicles and Drivers". .That's dated February 21, 14 1989. And we have distributed those to the Board-and to the 15 parties.
16 As the Board may observe in'looking through the
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, 17 testimony, there have been certain deletions and insertions 18 which we have done to conform to the Board's orders with 19 respect'to the testimony. We have reviewed those changes 20 with the Applicants and the Staff. And we understand that 2i the testimony is in order, I b61ieve with one exception 22 which may not appear on the Board's copies.
23 And at this time I would first refer to the panel-24 and ask them.
25 I'O J
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1 MANGAN, PAOLILLO - REDIRECT 19420 l c -1 Whareupon, F MAUREEN MANGAN .
I 3 JOHN PAOLILLO '
4 having been previously duly sworn, was recalled as a witness 5 herein and was examined and testified further as follows:
6 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. BROCK:
, 8 1 Ms. Mangan, have you had an opportunity to review-9 the tcJtimony to which I have just referred, and the changes 10 to reflect the Board's orders concerning this testimony.
11 A (Mangan) Yes, I have.
I 12 Q' And have you also had an opportunity to do that, 13 Mr. Paolillo?
14 A (Paolillo) Yes, I have.
15 Q And are there any changes that you would like to l
16 make to the testimony.as you have it before you?
,, 17 A (Paolillo) - Yes, just one on the top of page 13.
18 Q Okay, and what change would that be?
19 A (Paolillo) The first line where it states, " Based 20 on our conversation with Mr. Shuman", after that it should 21 say, "we do not believe that Front Line will provide".
22 Q All right. So instead of "we believe" as it was 23 written, it's "we do not believe".
24 Is that the change?
I 25 A (Paolillo) Yes.
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MANGAN, PAOLILLO - REDIRECT 19421 1 Q And is that change acceptable to you, Ms. Mangan?
7-~s.
- \ '- )- 2 A' (Mangan) Yes.
I 3 JUDGE SMITH: What are you going to do now? What 4 are.you going to do with that change?
5 You don't want to put this in evidence. Why don't 6 you just conform it?
7 MR. BROCK: We are prepared to do that, Your
, 8 Honor.
9 JUDGE SMITH: All right.
10 MR. BROCK: I'm just made the notation, and we 11 will those on other copies and distribute those.
12 JUDGE SMITH: All right. ,
13 MR. BROCK: All right.
14 BY MR. BROCK:
15 Q And with the change that you've referred to, Ms.
16 Mangan, is this testimony true and accurate to the best of
. 17 your knowledge and belief?
18 A (Mangan) Yes, it is.
19 Q And, Mr. Paolillo, is this true and accurate to 20 the best of your belief?.
21 A (Paolillo) Yes, it is. ;
22 Q Okay, Ms. Mangan, would you ask that the testimony 23 as conformed be admitted into evidence in this proceeding 24 and bound into the record?
25 A (Mangan) Yes, I would.
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.i-I MANGAN, PAOLILLO'- REDIRECT 19422 1 Q And would you also make that request,lMr.,
40 2 Paolillo?-
3: A (Paolillo) Yes. !
4 MR. BROCK: . Your. Honor, at this~ time we would that 5 the. testimony as conformed be admitted into evidence.
'6 MR. LEMALD: We don't object to the admission of 7 the testimony as.it's been changed.
. 8 MS. CHAN: Your Honor, the staff -- can we go off 9 the record for a second?
p 10 JUDGE SMITH: All right.
11 MS. CHAN: Thank you.
12 (Discussion off the record.)
13 JUDGE SMITH: Back on the record.
14 I note that'Ms. Greer has arrived from the 15 Attorney General's office and so the discussion of the 16 scheduling is ripe. So talk about it.
, 17 MR. DIGNAN: All right. The question is, as we 18 understand it, we're going with Daines and Lonergan after 19_ this panel, and then the question is who is up next assuming 20 the Applicants' Rebuttal No. 8 is withdrawn. And we want 21 Katherine Barnicle next. We also want the redacted version 22 of her notes, and we want Sikich's publications, and then we 23 want Sikich.
24 How does that fit in with your schedule?
25 MS. GREER: It depends a little bit upon -- am I Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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MANGAN, PAOLILLO - REDIRECT 19423 I
- ,-~( 1. correct then thinking that you have completely decided not
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- h ') 2 to put on your transportation panel?
l 3 MR. DIGNAN: No, I have not, because I'm still 4 waiting to see this cross-examination completed. And unless 5 anything happens that I don't anticipate here, it will be 6 withdrawn. But I still have to, before I make that decision 7 in good conscience, I have to let this panel end.
. 8 MS. GREER: Okay. Where we are in scheduling is 9 this. We have been planning to put on or have available to 10 put on Mr. E,ikich tomorrow. I had a conversation with Kate 11 Selleck yc.,#erday and she said that they really did not want 12 Mr. Sikich to go on until they had the publications.
13 I understand that there were a number of phone l
14 calls-traded last week in terms of arranging to get and how 15 to get to Ropes & Gray the publications and who was going to 16 pay for them and so forth. We did make an arrangement l
,. 17 yesterday, and my understanding that those publications will 18 be going out'from Chicago by overnight delivery to Ropes &
19 Gray today. But that will mean that Ropes & Gray will not 20 be getting the publications until tomorrow.
21 Our plan at this point, if we do not put Mr.
22 Sikich on tomorrow, would be then for Arthur Lonergan to go 23 on tomorrow.
24 MR. DIGNAN: You're going to reach Lonergan today.
25 MS. SELLECK: He's available today.
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MANGAN, PAOLILLO.- REDIRECT 19424
- 1 today,-that's fine. If we don't, we will.get to him
- 2. tomorrow. And then.we also have Katherine Barnicle, who is 3- available for tomorrow. And we also have Jennifer Leaning 4 who is available for Thursday,.with Gary Sikich then to come 1
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- n. 5 back and go.on on Monday.
6 MR. DIGNAN: Where are the Barnicle notes?
7 MS. GREER: The Barnicle notes are back at my
.- 8 office.
9 MR. DIGNAN: When am I going to get them?,
'10 MS. GREER: You know, as soon as I can get through 11 them. I gave them to copying on Friday. They had gotten 12 through copying approximately half of the notes. There was 13 in fact one parcel of notes done, but there are-still two 14 more parcels of notes that have not been copied as of the 15 first thing this morning.
16 Does that clarify things?
, 17 JUDGE SMITH: I beg your pardon?
18 MS. GREER: Is that enough clarification at this 19 point?
20 JUDGE. SMITH: Apparently. Mr. Dignan has stopped 21 talking.
22 MR. DIGNAN: Well, I think we are going to have
-23 some dead days here, but other than that, it's clarified.
24 JUDGE SMITH: Well, what days do you think will be 25 dead?
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MANGAN, PAOLILLO - REDIRECT 19425
, -- yi 1 MR. DIGNAN: Well, my best guess is that Daines
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.) 2 and Lonergan could well be through today. And that means 3 tomorrow we get Barnicle, I guess without notes.
4 MS. GREER: Well, I do have -- I mean the 5 secretary who was given the copying to be done has them 6 right there on the top of her desk with a note on them for 7 her to get to them the first thing this morning. It's
, 8 possible that she will get to them by noon, and I can bring j 9 them back down this afternoon.
10 JUDGE SMITH: I wonder if perhaps you might get on 11 the telephone and explain that there is an urgency for those 12 notes.
13 MS. GREER: I would be happy to do that.
('"i 14 JUDGE SMITH: Now we're going to adjourn mid-day
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15 on Thursday.
16 MR. DIGNAN: Now the other things I can tell the 17 Board right now, on Leaning -- for instance, if Leaning is a 18 big filler, no, Leaning is not a big filler. What I am 19 going to do with Leaning is I'm going to object to your 20 receipt of the evidence at all. If you overrule the l
l 21 objection, I at this point seriously think there will be no 22 cross. So let's not rely on Leaning to fill up a lot of
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i 23 time, unless the Staff has a major cross for Jennifer 24 Leaning.
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MANGAN, PAOLILLO - REDIRECT 19426 f- 1 MS. CHAN: No.
.N' 2 MR. DIGNAN: I didn't think so.
3 JUDGE SMITH: What can be done to improve the 4 situation?
5 MR. DIGNAN: I guess the problem is, Your Honor, 6 if I sound exasperated, I do. The problem is this, the 7 Attorney General's office is told to produce nutes. They. l
, 8 sort of get with it when they can and this is the approach.
9 Until something locks down on this, I don't know what we can 10 do . .
11 I know that we have met our commitments. And I 12 know it meant, for example, my being in this office over 13 that long weekend 15 hours1.736111e-4 days <br />0.00417 hours <br />2.480159e-5 weeks <br />5.7075e-6 months <br /> a day for the last three days 14 writing an appellate brief, a trial brief and everything
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15 else.
16 Until the same rule gets applied to the AG's 17 office, I don't know how we can keep the case moving. If 18 we're going to put witnesses on and produce documents at 19 whatever pace they elect to do it at, there is nothing to be 20 done. But I think we're headed for a very short week.
21 MS. GREER: If I may respond briefly. I just 22 would note for the record that the testimony of Katherine 23 Barnicle and Gary Sikich was filed on February 21st, is my 24 recollection.
25 We received a request for Gary Sikich's l
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MANGAN, PAOLILLO - REDIRECT 19427 1 publications just about two weeks ago. And for Katherine
' 2 Barnicle's notes I think more recently than that.
3 To the extent that there has been delay in this 44 proceeding I think it's probably unfair to put them all at 5 the foot of the Attorney General.
6 Ropes and Gray, if they knew that they wanted 7 those publications and documents, they could have asked for
, 8 the documents in a much more expeditious way than they have. ;
i 9 Instead they have -- it was their election to wait until we i 10 were in fact involved in the hearings with our own 11 scheduling conflicts to at that point come forward and say, 12 we want all these publications produced.
13 MR. DIGNAN: First of all, what Ropes and Gray was l
14 doing is after the testimony was filed we had one week to l
-15 file our direct testimony; that's point one. So the 16 decision-making had to wait that period.
l
, 17 Secondly, the reason we're having problems is we 18 had the extraordinary position taken by the Mass AG that the 19 Barnicle notes somehow shouldn't be produced at all; we had I
l 20 to fight that one out. Now we're having a redacted version 21 produced. We've been argued with all the way.
22 The Sikich publications, I must say, this is a new 23 one on me. Usually when you pick up the phone and ask the 24 opposing attorney for his expert publications you get them 25 by return mail. What the difficulty is on this one O
, Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
l-MANGAN, PAOLILLO - REDIRECT 19428 1 mystifies me. !
f-).
'.- t' N'j 2 I think any experienced lawyer should know by now 3 that we're going to be asking for the publications of an l 4 expert. And I'm amazed there wasn't a package ready to go.
5 MS. GREER: If I may. In fact, when the request 6 for Sikich publications came in --
7* MR. DIGNAN: March 30.
l , 8 MS. GREER: -- Mr. Sikich was not in Chicago. And 9 then when he got back to Chicago the following week he had 10 to go about compiling them, putting them together, and then l 11 there.was a series of phone calls.
12 JUDGE SMITH: Well, if there is one thing that is j 13 a fundamental basis for cross-examining an expert it's what I
t'~% 14 he has written. I agree that that should have been 15 anticipated.
16 MS. GREER: Don't misunderstand me. We have
. 17 actually no problem providing those publications. I'm 18 simply pointing out that to the extent that the applicants 19 at this point are trying to come forward and say that the 20 Mass AG is being, in some way, totally responsible for delay 21 of these hearings. I don't think that's fair, that's all.
22 JUDGE SMITH: Well, the problem will go away if we 23 have this interminable arguing about it. We'll fill up the 24 time.
25 //
() Heritage Reporting (202) 628-4888 Corporation j i
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[ HMANGAN, FAOLILLO - REDIRECT 19429 l
f-s 1 (Laughter.) {
-(
- 2 Let's go on, Mr. Brock.
3 MR. BROCK: Your Honor,.as I understand it we.have .,
4 made the offer to have the testimony of Mangan and Paolillo ;
5 as conformed and admitted into evidence and bound into the 6 record and we would so move at this time.
7 JUDGE SMITH: The testimony is received.
,. 8 (The testimony of Maureen 9 Mangan and John Paolillo 10 on. behalf of thu Attorney 11 General James M. Shannon, 12 regarding the actual 13 availability of the SPMC ;
() 14 15 manned vehicles and drivers (February 21, 1989) follows:)
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l Heritage Reporting Corporation l
I (202) 628-4888
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(, .s) ,
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
%J NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 1
ATOMIC SAFETY AND LICENSING BOARD Before the Administrative Judges:
Ivan W. Smith, Chairman Dr. Richard F. Cole Kenneth A. McCollom
)
In the Matter of ) Docket Nos. 50-443-OL
) 50-444-OL PUBLIC SERVICE COMPANY )
OF NEW HAMPSHIRE, EI AL. )
(Off-Site EP)
)
(Seabrook Station, Units 1 and 2) ) February 21, 1989
)
TESTIMONY OF MAUREEN MANGAN AND JOHN PAOLILLO, ON BEHALF OF ATTORNEY GENERAL JAMES M. SHANNON, f' s REGARDING THE ACTUAL AVAILABILITY OF THE SPMC'S t MANNED VEHICLES AND DRIVERS I.
SUMMARY
OF TESTIMONY In this testimony two investigators from the Massachusetts Attorney General's Office describe the results of their recent investigation of the actual availability of the manned vehichle being relied upon by the SPMC to support an emergency response.
These two investigators recently contacted each of the bus, ambulance, and tow companies which the Applicants, in responding to discovery requsts have stated that they will be l'
4
(_) relying on to supply vehicles to support the SpMC's evacuation plan. In other words, this testimony examines the " supply" side of th_e manned vehicles issues.
In this testimony the investigators will present, company by company, the results of their investigation, summarizing their results to the extent possible. For most bus companies willing to speak with them, it is not possible to say definitively how many manned vehicles will, with reasonable assurances, be able to respond on the day of an emergency. The numbers vary greatly, depending on time of day, day of week, and even time of year. What is certain, however, is that on many occasions the number of buses, vans, and other vehicles
,_s that will, with reasonable assurance, be able to respond, is
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'l substantially less than the numbers set forth on the SpMC's letters of agreement ("LOAs"). These are all "up to" agreements, i.e., they set forth maximums, not minimums, in many cases, this is not the number of vehicles which the managers / owners of the companies expect to respond.
As to ambulances, it a'ppears that no more than 51 ambulances and ambulettes can be counted on, with reasonable assurance, to respond. In addition, more than half of these can not be counted on to drive into contaminated areas.
There is only one tow company participating, and it will 1 likely supply 3 large tow vehicles, 3 carriers, and 9 standard l wreckers.
I II. IDENTIFICATION OF WITNESSES Q. Would you please state your names and business addresses.
A. (Mangan) My name is Maureen Mangan, and I am employed l
as an Investigator for the public protection Bureau of the !
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(,,/ Massachusetts Attorney General's Office. My business address is One Ashburton Place, Boston, Massachusetts.
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(Paolillo) My name is John Paolillo and, like Ms.
, Mangan, I am employed as an Investigator for the Public Protection Bureau of the Massachusetts Attorney General's Office.
I have the same business address.
Q. Briefly summarize your educational background experience as investigators.
A. (Mangan) I have a B.S. in Business Administration i
from Salem State College in Salem, Massachusetts. I have worked as an investigator for the Public Protection Bureau of the Attorney General's Office since March 1984. The Bureau includes six " divisions" (Antitrust, Civil Rights, Consumer
/m L.,)\ Protection, Environmental Protection, Insurance, and Public Charities) and two special " units" (Nuclear Safety Unit and Special Litigation Unit). I have conducted a wide variety of types of investigations over the past five years. Many have involved ascertaining facts by locating and interviewing individuals. Others have involved performing asset and corporate records checks, conducting audits, and analyzing ,
financial records. When requested to do so by Assistant Attorneys General, I appear in court proceedings and testify on 1 l
the results of my investigations. l 1
(Paolillo) I have a B.A. in Mathematics from Boston College. I After graduating in 1987,I was a research assistant
/~4 for the Middlesex County (Massachusetts) Court System. I came
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_s to the Attorney General's Office in December 1988 and have been working as an investigator for the Public Protection Bureau since that,date.
III.
THE NATURE OF OUR INVESTIGATIQH Q.
were asked Would you briefly to conduct describe the investigation that you with respect to the Seabrook Plan for Massachusetts Communities ("SPMC")?
A. (Both) Yes. The attorneys in the Nuclear Safety Unit' informed us that in the course of litigating the adequacy of the SPMC they wanted to know whether, and to what extent, certain private bus, ambulance, and tow companies, and their drivers, were actually committed to responding in the event of gs a nuclear emergency at Seabrook Station. Specifically, they sd provided us with a list of companies and asked us to contact the owners or managers and inquire about their commitment to participate.
Q. Do you know where this list came from?
A. Yes, actually it was a series of pages from answers to interrogatories provided by Seabrook's owners (the Applicants). These answers were provided in November 1988 in response to interrogatories submitted to them by attorneys from our office asking the Applicants to identify each of the companies currently being relied upon by New Hampshire Yankee's Offsite Response Organization ("ORO") for buses, vans, ambulances, and tow vehicles in the event of a radiological O
l
a emergencyEat Seabrook Station.
( ). The name of one additional ambulance company was also provided.by the Applicants in late January 19,89.
Q. When'did you conduct this investigation?
A. (Both) It was done in January and early February 1989.
Q. Had_you contacted any of'these companies previously?
A. (Mangan)- Yes. About a year ago, another investigator
~
from our' office, Brian Taylor, and I contacted a number of these companies and inquired about their intent to provide vehicles and drivers to New Hampshie Yankee in the event that there was an emergency at Seabrook Station and the area around.
the nuclear plant needed to be evacuated.
Q. What did you ask the company owners or managers when
- /- you contacted them at this time?
NJ A. (Both) We inquired first whether they had in fact agreed to provide vehicles and drivers to New Hampshire Yankee in the event of a radiological emergency at Seabrook. If the owner / manager responded affirmatively, we then inquired about numbers: How many vehicles? What types of vehicles and how many of each? How many drivers? We asked if they had signed any letter or other agreements with NHY and, if so, we asked them for their understanding of what.those letters or agreements meant.
We asked them whether the number of vehicles they had agreed to supply was a minimum or a maximum number.
(In almost all cases it was the latter.) We then inquired about potential problems that might exist in mobilizing all the
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<? s promised = vehicles and drivers'. In many instances the owners / managers explained that, depending on the. time ofLday, the' day of_the week, or the month of the year, they would
.. expect to have fewer vehicles and drivers available than the maximum number that had been offered to the ORO.
Q. Would you please review your findings for each of these companies.
A. (Both) Certainly.
A. MiB.ULANCE COMPANIES
- 1. Rockingham Regional Ambulance Company Nashua, New Hampshire (Mangan)
I interviewed Chris Stawasz, the Operating Manager, a year ago on March 23, 1988. A' that time he indicated that Rockingham had a Letter of Agreement with
.Seabrook's. owners to provide three (3) ambulances, but he had subsequently signed a contract to provide only "up to" two (2). He indicated that he could not guarantee that all his L
ambulances (4) would be available at all times, but two were 1 usually available.
He also said that~he has made it mandatory for his EMTs that they make themselves available for participation in a Seabrook emergency, but he admitted that contacting them all in an emergency was dependent on such .
factors as time of day and day of week.
(Paolillo) On February 10, 1989 I contacted Rockingham Regional Ambulance by telephone.
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( Rockingham Regional Ambulance ("Rockingham") has
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agreed to respond, under contractual agreements with New Hampshire Yankee ("NHY"), to a disaster at the Seabrook Nuclear Power Plant. In return for Rockingham's agreement to-participate, Rockingham has been provided a financial reward.
He said that they will receive additional compensation for their participation during an evacuation. Mr. Stawasz told me that Rockingham has agreed to m-ke all ambulances available at the time of a disaster. These vehicles are not all ambulances, however, some of them are ambulettes. An ambulette (according to Mr. Stawasz) is similar to an ambulance; however an ambulette has a larger capacity for passengers (6) and does not-have as much medical equipment stored within its cabin. All
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these vehicles are parked at one specific location (not furnished), and they provide daily service pursuant to state and municipal contracts.
I The drivers of the vehicles involved in the evacuation (
l L have received training, and they are aware of the possibility of driving into a radiation plume during the time of a disaster. The company contact person is Mr. Stawasz, and he advised me that he can always be reached during the time of an emergency. Mr. Stawasz stated that Rockingham has a 24-hour dispatcher who would help Mr. Stawasz contact all the drivers in the event of.a Seabrook emergency. The drivers involved would be told to report to the yard and then would drive into 1
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an assigned area.
Mr. Stawasz ended our interview by advising me that this is a volunteer effort on the part of the drivers and that all of these drivers live within the Nashua, New Hampshire, area.
(Both) Based on the information from both of our
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interviews, 4t appcar\,c . ..s t ther( L l'Ja e is a reasonable ersurenca that in the event of an emergency at Seabrook Station, Rockingham Regional Ambulance Company will be able to provide the two ambulances (with drivers) which the company has s
contracted to provide.
Rockingh;m m;y b; able Le esv id= vow ur )
tu: Odditional v=hicles. but-there i: ne taal assuranu. vf ihis. ,
2.
Cataldo Ambulance Service
.Somerville, Massachusetts.
D, t
(Mangan) Brian Taylor and I initially interviewed j John G. Mansfield, the Operating Manager of Cataldo Ambulance Service, a year ago on March 24, 1988. At that time he informed us that Cataldo had agreed to provide two (2) ambulances and accompanying drivers. He said they might be able to provide L I
additional ambulances if more were available at the time. I (Both) When we contacted Mr. Mansfield again on February 13, 1989, to see if he was still participating, he (
)
again said Cataldo would provide a minimum of two ambulances, as they had contracted to do.
He indicated that he had been advised by people from Seabrook Station not to speak to us, and refused to answer further questions, referring us instead to Ropes & Gray.
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Based on the information.we obtained from both these M Mef.v4.
interviews,.it appeare-that there i Ms sesvueble ::ur:ncc-that, in the eve,nt of an emergency at.Seabrook Station, Cataldo 4
Ambulance Service will be able to provide the two' ambulances.
l-(with drivers) they have been contracted to provide.
- 3. Dereck's Ambulance Service, Inc.
Manchester, New Hampshire l
(Mangan) Brian Taylor and I initially contacted Mark 1
and Henry Dufresne, the owners of Dereck's Ambulance Service on March 23, 1988.- We knew only that they had signed a letter of agreement to provide three (3) ambulances.and four (4) ambulettes. When contacted, however, they refused to answer our
() questions.
(Paolillo) On February 13, 1989, I spoke with Mr. Hank Dufresne (owner) of Dereck's Ambulance Service, Inc. Mr.
.Dufresne advised me that he refused to comment about his company's involvement in the Seabrook evacuation plan. Mr.
Dufresne referenced me to the law firm of Ropes & Gray r.egarding any question in this matter.
(Both) We have no reason to doubt that in the event of ;
a Seabrook emergency, Dereck's Ambulance will provide three h" ambulances and four ambulettes, with drivers.
.4. Medec Ambulance Pottland, Maine O _. :- - - _____ _ _ -- _ ---
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s (Paolillo) On February 7, 1989, I spoke with Mr Patrick Shaw, the Assistant Manager of Medec Ambulance. Mr. I f
Shaw provi,ded me with the following information regarding Medec '
, Ambulance's involvement in'the Seabrook Evacuation Plan, Medec Ambulance has signed a contract agreeing to provide two (2) ambulances to assist in an evacuation at the i time of an emergency. Medec also has up to four (4) crews to operate the ambulances.
Mr. Shaw pointed out that because of l the small number of ambulances Medec has contracted to provide, he foresees no problem in actually finding two ambulances available in a real emergency.
Mr.
Shaw continued by stating that either he or the manager would be the contact person at the time of an D) (, emergency.
He did not elaborate on how the drivers would be contacted or the amount of time it would take to contact them.
His personal opinion is that it would not be a problem contacting the drivers needed for the evacuation.
T- af f b bo - p kwsibrey There- :ppeers -tc be reemensble :ssura$ w \ghev.R nce that Medec 4
will be able to provide two ambulances in the event of an #
emergency at Seabrook.
- 5. Stavis Ambulance Service Brookline, Massachusetts.
(Mangan) I originally contacted Bernard Leitzig, the Manager at Stavis, on March 31, 1988, and he told me they had signed a letter of agreement to provide one (1) ambulance. I O t
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1 1 re-contacted him by telephone on February 16, 1989, to confirm ,
l the information he gave me previously. He did confirm that 1 i
Stavis' le,tter of intent is still valid, and they will provide
, one ambulance (with EMTs) in the event of a Seabrook emergency. He said that New Hampshire Yankee had requested i that he commit "up to" all sixteen (16) of his ambulances, but he refused, because he could guarantee only one (1). Stavis has also refused Seabrook's offer of compensation. He indicated that 15-20 of his EMTs have signed up to participate the training being offered by New Hampshire Yankee. It is his understanding that the EMTs would decide for themselves at the time of the incident whether or not they wish to respond or enter a contaminated area. Seabrook's owners have represented that Stavis' EMTs would be sent to a secondary zone, not the primary zone where the contamination has occurred. Mr. Leitzig also stated that he estimates it would take his ambulance, depending on traffic, approximately 60 minutes or more to arrive at the Staging Area in Haverhill from the time they had left Brookline.
Based on my conversations with Mr. Leitzig, it spec:rs r!uib \
1M 4 ehOs/d 4 hat there-is seessneble essuso..ce-that n
Stavis will provide one (1) ambulance, with EMTs, in the event of a Seabrook emergency,-
K lo No+\ot1WVt but trhere-+e-no--reasonabte-essur-ance that the EMTs will drive it into a contaminated area.
- 6. Front Line Ambulance Company Lawrence, Massachusetts, i
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(Both)- Frontline is a new addition to the list, having been first
_ announced by the Applicants in late January 1989. On February 2, 1 1989, we interviewed Robert Shuman, owner of Front Line Ambulance, concerning his contract with NHY to provide emergency service in the case of a rad,iological disaster at Seabrook Station. !
According to Mr. Shuman, in December 1988 he signed a contract with NHY to provide "up to" 15 ambulances and 15 wheelchair vans in the event that an evacuation is undertaken in response to a nuclear disaster at Seabrook. In return, his employees are to be paid $250 annually plus an hourly rate for p
any training sessions they attend. Front Line is being paid t
$2,000 annually for participating, $750 per ambulance, and $100 per wheelchair van.
Mr. Shuman understands "up to" as meaning as many ambulances and wheelchair vans as are available at the time they are called but not to exceed 15 of each. He added that at no time would he strip all ambulances from the four (4) towns he contracts with to provide ambulances in a Seabrook emergency. Therefore, he would never send more than 11 ambulances in the event of a disaster.
Mr. Shuman firmly stated that it is not his understanding with Seabrook's owners that he would send his ambulances, vans, and drivers into a contaminated area. That is something he would not agree to do.
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Q} Based on our convergatig n with Mr. Shuman, it- a ppe+r s W qae_A & e VR that t her e-i s--no-aeeu r a a.ce t h a t F ron t L i ne wi l l p rov i de mo r e than 11 am_bulances and 15 wheelchair vans in the event that there is a need to evacuate the area around the Seabrook nuclear plant in an emergency there. In addition,, md g M ARV4.
e there is no Lasurance that these vehicles will enter a contaminated area.
- 7. Bay State Ambulance (various locations including Springfield, Massachusetts).
(Mangan) I did interview the Director of Operations of Bay State, Mr. Jay Sylvain, bLen in March 1988. Because of recent developments at Bay State, however, most of what he told me then is now out of date.
(Both) On February 14, 1989, we interviewed Jay
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Sylvain, Operating Manager of Bay State Ambulance, at his office located at 867 Boston Road, Springfield, Massachusetts. We discussed Bay State's contract to provide ambulances and wheelchair vans to Seabrook in the event of a radiological disaster.
Mr. Sylvain first advised us that Bay State Ambulance was currently negotiating to sell the part of their ambulance company that services the North Shore area of Massachusetts. He anticipates that the sale will occur sometime after April 1, 1989. After this sale, Bay State will have only their (Massachusetts) South Shore and Springfield area offices. As a result of this sale, he believes Bay State Ambulance will only
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( )- be able to provide about 13 ambulances, not 22 as stated in their contract. Mr. Sylvain has notified representatives of Seabrook o,f th3s.pending change and of the need to amend his contract. He told them that at this point he could not guarantee them a specific number of ambulances. -lle s a id t h a t 6 --
-represen t a t i v e vi Statrrcok responded that they de nvi c6te if
_EMT u nd ambuler.ces shc= up ina n emercancy- +-hay only need -
-number ca - p a pet, Mr Sylvain broke down the locations of his remaining inventory of ambulances as follows:
Quincy 06 Weymouth 05 Braintree 03 Holyoke 02 (m) Springfield la Total 26 However, at least 13 of these ambulances would n21 be available to respond in the event of a nuclear disas'ter because of prior commitments.
According to Sylvain, none of his EMTs have officially signed up with Seabrook or been treined. He has left it solely up to Seabrook to recruit Bay State EMTs.
When Mr. Sylvain asked the representative of Seabrook to provide him with some information from their disaster plan, his request was denied. He was mainly interested in reviewing the chain of command and how long the estimated ambulance O( / 14_
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'( response time was.
A rePr0 scat 5tivC of 53Gbscck did cell Mr7 Sy-1-vait that-theywefe-44ek.i n g fer ccmeanies that woula ce acie
--t+ resperid~rn two invu t ut less. Mr. Sylvain estimates that after contacting the EMTs from his Springfield location, he i could have three crews ready to respond in 15-20 minutes and it would take approximately 1 hour1.157407e-5 days <br />2.777778e-4 hours <br />1.653439e-6 weeks <br />3.805e-7 months <br /> and 40 minutes for them to get as far north as Lowell. He estimates that it would take his South Shore ambulances approximately 1 hour1.157407e-5 days <br />2.777778e-4 hours <br />1.653439e-6 weeks <br />3.805e-7 months <br /> to get to Lowell under normal circumstances. However, if.they were called during !
rush hour, it would take much-longer than one hour. i Mr. Sylvain states that it was his understanding that his ambulances and EMTs would not be entering a contaminated area and that at no time would they enter New Hampshire and y}
f probably would not go any farther north than Haverhill. He believes that his EMTs would not enter a contaminated area unless they were provided a protective suit similar to those provided if they were responding to a chemical disaster, as many of his EMTs have in the past.g g .,
,4 b In conclusion, w Q ksevJL F~ 'r e n u de h thcre i s - nc r e asomb4e--
assum that Bay State Ambulance will be able to provide more than 13 ambulances in the eve 3t of a future emergency at VJ C bg W $ m@
Seabrook Station. ,2 ; c = 0c ne of Bay State's EMTs have signed.
up or been trained yetj i$ may net be prudent tc count er that any . 6hd 9 I n4- 4di t i o n , i.-iie r e 15 nc 553urance that these vehicles koT ^ i will enter a contaminated area.
A l
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Marlboro-Hudson Ambulance Hudson, Massachusetts (Mangan)
A year ego, in March 1988,.I interviewed t
Arthur J.
)
Breau, the. manager-of this company about its l
participation in'an evacuition in'the event of an emergency at
~Seabrook Station. For all intents, what he told me then he repeated ;or'us again when we interviewed him this year;.so I need not detail what he said back in 1988.
.(Both) On February 7, 1989, we interviewed Arthur.
Breau, the General Manager of Marlboro-Hudson Ambulance Company.
Ar ording to Mr. Breau, if there is a Seabrook emergency, Marlboro-Hudson has agreed to provide up to 11 ambulances, up to 8 wheelchair vans, and up to 3 critical care units if.available at the time. This is the company's entire inventory of vehicles.
But Marlboro-Hudson Ambulance.is under i
contract with the City of Marlboro and the Town of Hudson to provide emergency ambulance services 24 hours2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br /> a day. Therefore, since one ambulance must be reserved for each, at no time would he have more than 9 ambulances to respond to an emergency at Seabrook. Mr.
Breau added that all his prior commitments come first, meaning that if his vehicles were being used for' regular contract service, like transporting patients from a hospital to their homes or to a nursing home, these contracts would have to be fulfilled before he would release these ambulances to Seabrook.
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Mr- Breau has stated these conditions clearly to Seabrook's representatives. He= " e r , their vuly u v ac c r rrr--he, saidr-wes-to gst thG figurs5 e n yWe r . Ther--fMWSI--qupJ i c n e d
-t-he-t-ee-1-i-t i c s behind this "up te" centrect. Mr. Breau freely admits that the only reason his company signed the contract was ,
for the financial gain provided to the company and employees.
He described these payments as " free" money.
According to Mr. Breau, a total of 60 drivers havs been l
trained by.Seabrook to respond in an emergency, b':b he feels that 90% of them are involved only to receive the financial I rewards. II._aheme r gency- occu r red r he-does-no-t- be-l i eve h-is. EMTs- wou-Id-leave ~a-*Faf e" a reeand-dr-ive-into-a-cont aminated area. He has already heard some of-his-dri-ver-s-stater "If there O
g is a d i sa st er; yo trWOTrhhr^t get- me- up--t he re . "
In the event of an emctgency, Mr. Breau is the contact person at Marlboro-Hudson. Upon being notified, he and the dispatcher are to begin contacting his drivers. He feels that he could reach 90% of them, but he beltaves only a small numoer uculd actu:lly resper.d, If an emergency occurred during the day, he could contact and mobilize twelve crews right away tes s uining i. hey un eed t.c respond)-. However, if the emergency occurred at night, it would take considerable time since some of his drivers live in Fitchburg and other towns west of Worcester. Marlboro-Hudson stores some of its vehicles in Clinton, Worcester, Marlboro, and Hudson. Their normally daily runs are between Framingham and Worcester.
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.x t-1 7 'Onee the drivers are mobilized, it would take b
.approximately 45 minutes to 1 hour1.157407e-5 days <br />2.777778e-4 hours <br />1.653439e-6 weeks <br />3.805e-7 months <br /> to arrive at the Staging Area 1
in-Haverhill, as long as the roads were clear. Mr. Breau does not know where the drivers will be sent, .but it is his understanding that they could be sent into a contaminated area.
However, v the dri'ers would decide at the time of the emergency whether or not they would go-into a contaminated area Based on what Mr. Breau told us, => b is n9~20 there 1
.c r e a s o n arb-le w cLO wet (Rh eve L
assurance A that Marlboro-Hudson can ever provide more than 9 ambulances, 8 wheelchair vans, and 3 critical care units, and t;hesa__ numbers-Jaa-y-well be optimisth giver hi:: corrente ahost 4eis4t4xees .
- 9. General Ambulance Needham, Massachusetts
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(Mangan) On February 20, 1989, I telephoned Mr.
Bedigan, the President of General Ambulance, regarding General's contra'ct with Seabrook to provide emergency service in the event of a radiological disaster.
Mr. Bedigan advised me that they are currently negotiating with Seabrook for a new contract. He has not decided whether or not he will renew. His previous contract has expired. He pointed out that he has reduced the size of his company. General now only has one location and few ambulances.
Therefore, any new contract (if he signs) will be for less than four (4) ar.<bu l a nce s . He would not give an estimate of the
S
) number he might agree to provide if he does decide to sign a new con.ract.
Based on this information,x,.e.l '.>% A 4Q- $ . A 44- Mo uol d&M-be p r u de n t = t o Ad\\,\ A e eurtt un General Ambulance.'te provide any ambulances in the event of a radiological emergency at Seabrook Station.
- 10. B&L Ambulance Portland, Maine (Mangan) On sanue y 30, 1989, I interviewed, by telephone, Leo Bouchard, the owner of B & L Ambulance regarding B & L's contract to provide NHY with emergency ambuJaace services in the event of a radiological disaster.
Mr.
Bouchard stated that he has agreed to provide eight ambulances and one wheelchair van, each with at least one driver,
(/~') to evacuate hospitals and nursing homes prior to any ss meltdown at Seabrook Station. In return, NHY would keep his drivers aware of the danger, and his driver could leave at any time during the evacuation.
As he understands B & L's commitment, at no time would his drivers be driving into a radiation plume. Drivers that choose to stay if the danger I i
i level was high are to be issued protective gear, he Gaid, j l
Mr. Bouchard states that his entire staff of 50 have signed on to participate with NHY and have been trained and paid.
i Mr. Bouchard is the contact person at B & L who would receive a call from Seabrook in the event of an emergency. The dispatcher would then use pagers to contact the drivers on duty, and he could telephone the ones off duty. Mr. Bouchard I)
_19_ l l
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D
't.vj est wates it would take approximately 10 minutes to contact enough drivers to man his vehicles. Howeve.r, he could not guarantee _that they all weuld show up. He estimates it.would-take between 10-30 minutes for the drivers to assemble in Portland.
He would instruct the drivers who are on the road carrying passengers to take them to their destinations before they report to Portland. In a drill, it took one hour for his-drivers to report from Portland, Maine,-to the Salem, New Hampshire, Staging Area.
l tt -
Based on this information, th ue appears to be Mbte:, $ d etheVt reasonabic essutenee that B & L will offer eight' ambulances and A
one whe>alchair van in the event of a Seabrook emergency. -But m there-is-no t :wr-ence-that t h e 9 5 L d r i"e-r: uc u l d df-i-ve-irtt+-
contamir.ated creas os stay on duty thscughcui the emergency.
Summary of Ambulance Company Investigation The following data emerges from our investigation:
- 1. W.e ht\\t Ye_ set There ca.- 50 no m ovuoLie a s s u n.rme t ha t mo A re t h a n 51 ambulances, 4 ambulettes, 24 wheelchair vans, and 3 critical care unites will be offered by these ten ambulance companies i n-the event of a radiological emergency at Seabrook.
l 1
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ - _ - - - - _ _ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - ~
i
- . ? -1 l
i
- s. -.-
.'t,z.%..i5.T
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O. . As many as 33 of the ambulances and 16 of the l
b wheelchair' vans can'not'be counted on to drive into contaminated' l areas. .
B. SHSLyAN COMPANIES
- 1. Weagle Bus Company Shrewsbury, Massachusetts
-(Mangan) Brian Taylor and I interviewed Alan Weagle, the President of Weagle Bus Company, on March 11, 1988. At that time, according to his letter of agreement:and Appendix M of the SPMC, Weagle had agreed to provide:
76 School buses 11 Half-size school buses 08 Vans 04 ' Wheelchair vans 01 Wheelchair bus He told us Weagle was exclusively a contractor for schools. He indicated that they had signed a contract with Seabrook's owners. In' the event of a Seabrook emergency, he said they
^
would have to first finish delivering the children onboard
'their buses to their homes or schools. Then they would have to assemble their buses and drivers back at the bus yard. He realizes that they are located some 60 miles away from
' Salisbury, but he anticipates that from Shrewsbury, it would take his buses less than an hour to get to the EPZ in an emergency.
. f'
( ,
i . .
. - - - = - - - ~
f s_) -(Both) Lon February 7, 1989, we went to Shrewsbury to speak to Mr. Weagle in order to verify or update information he had provid_ed a year earlier.
This time he declined-to speak' with us, and we were_ directed to present our questions to Ropes-( & Gray.
We.therefore have no reason to doubt that Mr. Weagle still intends to offer his v.ehicles and drivers, as he indicated a year ago.
- 2. Fox Bus Lines, Inc.
Millbury, Massachusetts (Mangan)
A year ago, on March 21, 1988, I interviewed.
Mr. Brian Fox, the Vice President of-For Bus Lines. At that
( ) time they had a letter of agreement to provide 15 charter / tour buses to assist in an evacuation of the Massachusetts towns near the Seabrook nuclear plant in-the event of an emergency there. But he was not sure he was going to carry through on
~
that agreement.
Shortly before I spoke pith him, he had received a check from Seabrook's owners for his annual retainer under the agreement.
But the check he had just received had
" bounced";
so he felt he had no obligation.
(Paolillo) On February 13, 1989, I called Fox Bus Lines and spoke with Mr. Brian Fox. !
I wanted to confirm the status of their agreement to assist Seabrook's owners in evacuating the area around the Seabrook plant in the event of an emergency there. Mr.
f3 Fox declined to answer my questions, Am ,) however, 4
and referred me to Ropes & Gray.
_ _=______________ __. 1
4 s
f"'j '-
_\
(Both) As to this company,.we have to assume from
- s_--
their. refusal to speak to us that they finally did get paid and do intend _to provide the buses specified in the agreement.
- 3. -Dee Bus Company Concord, Massachusetts
'(Mangan)
Brian Taylor and I interviewed Mr. George Dee, Manager of Dee Bus Company, a year ago in March 1988. At that time he confirmed a. letter of agreement with Seabrook's. i owners to supply 20 school buses from its bus yard in West Acton, Massachusetts.
He indicated that his school contracts have a prior'ity; the school children would have to be brought home before reporting to Seabrook. He seid he '-res told bg f \
representatives _from Raabrnnk
- hat i t weuid be vety-unMke-1-y--
(/ that h i s bu c c a c n d d r i v e r s wo u ld h a vs--t-e-4&i'f e i n t o a contaminated 6 tea, Lcuouse they will h&ve enauth "erning,-
befOr0 c O n t-ami n a t i U n ildppens, Lv ev6CUaL6 6f6syGL6.
(paolillo) On February 16, 1989, I called Dee Bus Company and spoke with Mr. George Dee. He told me that Dee.had contracted to provide up to 21 buses, but he declined to answer I any of my additional questions, referring me instead to Ropes &
Gray.
(Both) It appears that Dee is committed to provide 21 wt beheVE %
buses, but Athere is av sesovneble a s sus auw w -tha t these buses mot and drivers willAtravel into contaminated areas.
f
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. /^ 4 McGregor-Smith' Bus Company
.(
~Merrimac, Massachusetts, (Mangan)
_ .A year ago, in March 1988, Brian Tay1'or and I . interviewed.Mr.' Stephen Gadd,' Vice President of McGregor-Smith Bus Lines.
At that. time he' indicated that he I 'had signed a letter of agreementLback in 1987 indicating a willingness to provide up to 120 buses, but he said that
~
Seabrook's owners had subsequently tendered a contract asking him to commit to send this number of buses, and he had decided not to sign it or make this commitment.
/
(Paolillo) on February 9,-1989, Ic /tacted the McGrego Smith Bus Company located in Merr'mac, Massachusetts.
I spoke wi their Vice President, Stelrf5en Gadd, and he advised h
V, me that McGr c)or-SmithN is not unde contract to respond to a radiological emel ency at the SN brook Nuclear Power Station within the State of assach etts. He continued by stating McGregor-Smith will no ffer any buses or drivers to the evacuation plan on e Massachusetts side. Mr. Gadd ended our conversation by elling me t at this time McGregor-Smith will not sip a contract to par 'cipate within the state of Massachysitts in t e Seabrook eva tion plan.
(Both) The e regog- th Bus Company should not be counted on to provide any'b es or drivers to aid in evacuating
/ N .
i the communities in 4he / Massachusetts EPZ. .
/ N i x
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Marathon /Weybridge Shrewsbury,_ Massachusetts
.(Mangan)
In March 1988 I contacted the Marathon Bus Line-
.i in Framingham, Massachusetts, and confirmed that they_had signed a letter of. agreement to provide up to-36 buses. However, when I attempted to contact them again in early February 1989, I found-that their telephone was disconnected. I then determined that
-they were no longer in business at the previous Framingham location. _It appears that Marathon is no longer in' business.
In February 1989 I also sought to contact the Weybridge Bus Company. According to the Applicants' answers to interrogatories, the company is located on Hartford Pike in
'Shrewsbury.
When John Paolillo and I went to the listed { address', we found that the company was no longer located at this location. . Phone numbers had been disconnected. wi.3 I beh eV 4L m ---_ 1_m_.----- N hat the iOs N CT Marathon /Weybridge Bus Company currently A existe or that it will 1 provide any buses in the event _an evacuation is called in response to a Seabrook emergency. j
$. Hudson Bus Lines Medford, Massachusetts
]
(Mangan) A year ago, on March 18, 1988, I spoke with ) J Mr. Kenneth Hudson, Sr., the president of Hudson Bus Lines. He said Hudson runs a series of commuter bus routes between Boston and a number of other Massachusetts communities north of r (> 4 i
e y Bost:n. k He~ admitted that he had.provided Seabrook's owners 0 with a letter-stating his agreement.to dispatch all his available'. buses (up to 25) in the event of a need to evacuate people due to an emergency at plant. the Seabrook nuclear power He had not signed a contract to provide these vehicles,.
.as he did not want to commit to provide any set number He said his regular' contracts are his top priority; so he could not guarantee that 25 buses would be available. He informed me that Hudson was not being paid a retainer.
(Both) On February 13, 1989, we visited the Hudson' ' Bus Lines office in Medford and spoke with Mr Jr., Kenneth Hudson, the company owner. He said he thought Hudson had signed a letter of agreement to provide "up to" 50 buses depending on the time of day, in the event of an. emergency at s. nuclear plant. the Seabrook He explained that not all of his buses are parked at the Medford lot: 40 are.in Medford and 20 more are parked in Nashua, New Hampshire. In.all cases, he said his buses would first complete their daily duties before roceeding p with participation in the evacuation effort his drivers have yet He also said that to be trained by Seabrook's owners, and he says his drivers have not been told they might have to drive into a radiation plume to evacuate people during an emergency . As to his commitment to provide "up to" 50 buses and drivers, he said that if the emergency evacuation is declared during the -i 1 commuter rush hours (6:30-8:30 a.m. and 4:00-6:00 p.m.), then ( .
- m.
11 l'
/I G the amount of. buses he would have available to contribute right
.away to the evacuation effort would be limited. His buses would firs _t liave to finish their normal daily routes before
, they could participate in the evacuation plan. Mr. Hudson did not know how long it would take all of his drivers to report to the bus yards after being contacted.
Based on the information we have been provided, it appears that if buses are needed between 6:30-8:30 a.m. or 4:00-6:00 p.m., . Hudson Bus Lines may only be able to provide a fraction of the 50 buses it could otherwise make available. At w e W } 4 vsL N.C
-such times,A they should not be counted on to provide more than about 10-15 buses.
- 7. .Buckingham Bus Service 7S Groton, Massachusetts
-(Mangan) A year ago, in March ~1908, Brian Taylor and I
contacted the Buckingham-Bus Company in Groton, Massachusetts,
.and spoke with the office secretary, Linda Leibig. At that time, Buckingham~had signed a letter of agreement agreeing to !
make available up to 14 buses and 2 vans to assist in an ] emergency response plan to evacuate the area around Seabrook i Station in the event of an emergency. Ms. Leibig confirmed this agreement, and she said a contract had been signed. She { indicated that because this is a charter bus company, some of their buses and drivers could be out on a charter at the time of an emergency. She said that Seabrook's owners had agreed to l provide their drivers with protective equipment when needed. n. Yl y-x I k
=i (Paolillo) On February 16, 1989, I called the d \*
Buckingham Bus Company in'Groton, Massachusetts, and spoke with Mr. Paul T_ouiney, ,the manager, regarding Buckingham's participation in an evacuation plan for the Seabrook nuclear plant. Mr. Touiney declined to answer any of my questions <and j referred me to Ropes & Gray. (Both) Based on the information we have, Buckingham-will provide "up to" 14 buses and 2 vans in the event-of a g_ :e .1 . _ -M w -e. i n w C ' d -: / Seabrook emergency. But there-i: nc reascaeble assurance that a full 14 buses will be provided-Some of the buses'could out on charter at the time of an emergency. Lu M(MVE%,
-Preb:bly no more
+T be.
than 10 buses should be counted on initially.
- 8. Bio W Transportation, Inc.
Ashland, Massachusetts-(Mangan) Big W is a company that was not being relied upon by the SPMC a year ago; so I had no reason to interview
.the owner / manager until now.
(Both) On February 7, 1989, we contacted Robert P. Winterhalter at the Big W office. He advised us that he had contracted to provide buses in the event of a Seabrook emergency, however, he did not wish to discuss this matter with us and declined to answer our questions, i t (Mangan) i On February 15, 1989, I contacted Mr. James Sleeper, a part-time bus driver for Big W. Mr. Sleeper had contactud our office on his own a year earlier for information _ , _ _ _ , _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ - _ - - - - - - - - - ' - - " ^ - - - - - - - - - _ ^ ^ ^ '
t s,. A.)E accut Seabrook,
. at a. time when he'had just been through k
L Seaccook's' bus driver training and was evaluating whet'her to participat_e further. Mr. Sleeper informed me that he believe Big W has contracted to supply 35 buses and drivers. However, he expressed a; number of concerns about the reliability and the timeliness of Big W's response in an emergency. First, he explained that assembling the drivers may take some time. In his case, it would take him 1 to 1-1/2 hours to get from his home to the Big W bus yard in Ashland. Then, because of the distance from Ashland to the Massachusetts EpZ, it would take the buses an additional 1-2 hours to get to the EPZ, depending I on traffic. Second, he has concerns about the mechanical reliability of the Big W buses. He does not believe that they
- () are properly maintained.and says that at any time 10 buses may be broken down.
When he was participating as a driver for Big-W in the Harvard graduation week activities in June 1988, he had to drive 4 or 5 different buses because the buses kept breaking down. Aecording to Mr. 01eover, when 5eabruuk^s peopic ucrc--
-reerwiting-bu: driveis, they li.f e r red tha t they were only interested in ohe eining the drivers' commitment (for whi-L uhey ass--pud-+-sti p e n d ) to participate in training anc h Mr.
Sleeper was left with the understanding that it would be up to the individual drivers and companies to decide whether to respond, or not, to an actual emergency. ( .
f (3. ~) s 1 N e !s Based on this information, 44 appears that in the l I even of a Seabrook emergency, fewer than 35 Big W buses can be counted on,to respond, due to the likelihood of mechanical problems that may prevent some of the 35 offered vehicles from responding. If five are broken down, that would mean that 30 j are mechanically fit to go.
- 9. Parent Bus Andover, Massachusetts (Mangan) A year ago, in March 1988, Brian Taylor and I interviewed Mr. James Naticchioni, the Manager of Parent Bus. At that time he indicated that Parent had agreed in a letter to offer up to 30 buses, 5 vans, and 3 wheelchair vans
('T to Seabrook's owners to assist in evacuating the area around
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the Seabrook nuclear plant in the event of an emergency there. (Both) On February 2, 1989, we interviewed Mr. James 1 Naticchioni again. He is still the Manager of Parent Bus Company. He informed us that Parent has signed a contract with New Hampshire Yankee ("NHY") to provide NHY "up to" 31 buses in 1 i the event of a radiological emergency. He explained that they no longer have the vans and wheelchair vans which he had offered previously. He also explained that he understood "up to" to mean that he will provide as many buses (up to 31) as he can get, with drivers, at the time. Currently only 19 of Parent's drivers have been trained, but he expects that he could get about 25 who would drive the buses in the event of an
/~s I \_/h
'4
] emergency. -However, Mr. Naticchioni stated that servicing; Parent's regular school contracts will always be his first priority. ,They currently contract with North Reading and Andover, Massachusetts.
, In the event of a Seabrook emergency, school children in those school districts would be serviced before his buses would respond to assist in a Seabrook evacuation. During normal morning and afternoon school bus hours, 24 of Parent's buses are out on-jobs and only 8 are left-parked in the bus yard.
He.also stated that when his buses did respond to assist in an evacuation, the Parent buses were to be dispatched to the Merrimac and West Newbury area exclusively. It was his understanding that they would not be sent to at contaminated () area. One concern Mr. Naticchioni has is that he has a high driver turnover rate, and New Hampshire Yankee has not requested that.NHY be informed when drivers who have been trained to participate resign. In conclusion, Parent has no vans or wheelchair vans w e_ loei m v e-to offer, and tic e is no-reesonable assutauve that Parent canNo ~ A emor supply more than about 25 buses in the event of a Seabrook Dae helleVR emergency. Even then, .they cannot be counted on to send buses A into any of the Massachusetts EPZ towns except Merrimac and West Newbury. In the event taat Parent buses are requested during the normal school bus run hours in the mornings and f
c - a w e de u r b,e\ s es/e_ 4a AT (~'\ afternoons,iparentcan,nat be relied u -Gl '@F_ : _ _ ' ^ po n'2. t o h a ve mo re t h a n 8 buses available.
- 10. Denise Inc. d/b/a Travel Time Bus Company Peabody, Massachusetts (Both) On February 2, 1989, we interviewed Richard
.Cowdell, Manager of Denise Inc. d/b/a Travel Time Bus Company, regarding their contract to provide emergency service to Seabrook in the case of a radiological disaster.
Mr. Cowdell stated that Denise Inc is under contract to provide up to 135 buses (various sizes) and 15 wneelchair vans and drivers in the event of an emergency. He explained "up to" as meaning as many as he could mobilize at a given time. Denise Inc.'s regular school contracts would be their. () top priority. If an emergency occurred between 6:30-9:00 a.m. or 1:45-3:45 p.m., 80% of their buses would not be able to respond until their normal contracted routes had been completed. It is Mr. Cowdell's understanding that the buses would be driven into contaminated areas; however, all drivers would be provided with a dosimetry meter and the drivers could pull out when they read a dangerous level of radiation. Mr. Cowdell states he attended a training seminar at Seabrook at which time they played down the possibilities of reaching a high level of radiation. They pointed out that people have contact with radiation each day. They aisc stressed that they would be advised when they reached a high level. a .. According to Mr. Cowdell, it is not spelled out who f'J')
'their contact person was in the event of an emergency. He assumes-that'the answering service'would contact him and the
,_ owner, and they would then contact the drivets. If an emergency occurred during normal business hours, it would tske 1-1/2 to 2 hours to contact enough drivers to. man all vehicles and 3-1/3 to 4 hours if an emergency occurred at night.- Only 2/3 of Travel Time's 150 employees work during the summer. Mr.
Cowdell does not know if he would be able to locate the other 1/3 in the summer, Mr.'Cowdell does not know how many drivers have actually signed up to respond. He was not able to give even an estimate. However, he~ believes that of the total number signed () up, 75%.would. respond and 25% would be sick or otherwise unavailable. Denise Inc has approximately 150 bus drivers on its payroll. Denise Inc also has a high rate of driver turnover. They provide Seabrook with updated list of their drivers only once a year. w e.\oth @ R Based on this information, i4 appcore that if an emergency.were to occur during normal school bus hours, only 20% of the 135 may be able to respond promptly. This would be 27 buses. We have no information on how many drivers have signed up--the owner did not know, and he expects that only 75% of those would show. In the summer, when only 2/3 of.Lhe k S W behevEOd drivers are employed, it may not be possible for Denise to A () --
1;~,_' \ s Y' p
;F
[: A . s u p p l y mo r e - t h a n 9 0 b u s e s . enn- w i th--hi% p%g , L
- 11. Park Transportation Avon, Massachusetts (Both) On February 1, 1989 we interviewed Vincent H.
Savill-(President) and Barney Morrissey (Manager) of Park Transportation regarding Park's contract with NHY to provide. vehicles and drivers in the event of a radiological disaster;at Seabrook Station. According to Mr. Savill, he has agreed to supply as many' buses, wheelchair vans, and station wagons-as he could in the event of an emergency. He breaks down his vehicles as' follows: 20 Wheelchair vans (which hold 4-8 passengers) I 06 Buses (each seats 43 adults) 75-100 Vans / station wagons-(which hold 12-15 passengers) Park has made it clear to Seabrook that they would only provide the number of vehicles available at the time of an emergency. They stated that Park's school and state contracts will be serviced first. Park has notified NHY that they would not respond to an emergency which occurs Monday-Friday between 7:00-9:00 a.m. and 2:00-4:00 p.m. They would first instruct all drivers to finish their regular routes. Park's contracts include school districts as far south as Bourne, Massachusetts (near the Cape), and as far north as Somerville, Massachusetts. [ ; j
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fH . j k i
.They estimate that only 10% of their vehicles would'be available during these school bus route hours.
P, ark has a total of 85 bus drivers who have signed up 1 to respond and 20 managers and mechanics who also have agreed to respond. Barney Morrissey is the contact person wi'.h NHY in the event of an emergency. He estimates he could c?ntact 90% of.his drivers in a period of one hour. They would report to the bus yard in Avon. Those drivers who already have buses north of Boston would'immediately report to the NHY Staging Atua. Route guides from NHY will then arrive at the bus yard and supply each driver with a dosimetry to measure the radiation level. The route guide will then guide the buses from Avon to the Staging Area in Haverhill which would take
\
approximately 1-1/2 hours. Mr. Savill states that his drivers were aware that they could be driving into radiation, but it was their understanding they had the option to pull out once their dosimetry read a dangerous level. Mr. Savill stated that Park has a high driver turnover rate. He believes that NHY may have a pool of spare drivers, since they requested to rent Park's buses without drivers. Park has denied this request, g g Mh t V A. Based on this information,4t :ppe::r that if a Seabrook emergency occurred at or near the time of normal school bus hours, Park may be able to provide only 2-3 i wheelchair vans, 1-2 buses, and 7-10 vans / station wagons. At A V
4- .
, j L
{ l
/'N s c. !.xhtve NN best, N ,) ^ with 105 potential drivers and a.likelihuod of contacting l
90's of them in the event of an emergency, park could supply u to 91 vehicles. -But given his high turnover rate, this behfV6
- number 4N' A
appesca tcbev<euLhoptimistic. A=safar 2nrJ mora reliable A numbc tc-ccent ;n uculd be-00-70 vehkeler teteL Summary of Bus Company Investigation The following points have emerged from our interviews with the bus company owners /managerse M WVR b N9 UD hE btot",
- 1. The number of buses school bus companies will provide in the event of a Seabrook emergency is highly variable and (q
j
-dependent on the time of day, day of week, and time of year.
During typical " school bus hours" most of the school bus companies intend to honor their school contracts first. During the summertime, it is not uncommon for school bus drivers to take other jobs and not be in close contact with thier companies.
- 2. By agreeing to provide "up to" a given number of buses !
~= '. l, L ie.
(and/or vans),"the companies generally understand this to mean
+
that they will attempt to provide as many buses as they can..."up to" that number, but many companies readily acknowledge that the number they expect to provide will be less than the "up to" number. G(_) 1
i 8 4 (
- 3. The bus companies seem to experience a fairly high i
/w)
\~ !
driver turnover rate. Since NHY asks for an updated list of drivers only annually, this means that the number of trained
, drivers each company has varies throughout the year, and the total drops by a number equal to the to the total turnover experienced each year.
- 4. The typical off-hours means of contacting the bus drivers is by telephone. This may be an adequate method if the emergency at Seabrook is in the middle of the night and.the drivers ard all at home sleeping. But if the emergency is, say, in the late afternoon or early evening, or on weekend days, when bus drivers may well be away from home, there is no 1 assurance that they can be contacted. ?. prudent planwet should netwme that :ll--thw drivers being uvnt s c te d -4wr-iWese heurs. Probably thc numbers should be disvuunted by at-lesst !
10-20% f or this r actcs alone.
- 5. Some of the companies' managers understand that their buses and drivers will not be assigned to go into contaminated areas, or into a plume of radiation, to assist in the
( evacuation. Even for companies which do not have this ' understanding, they have been led to believe that risks are { minimal, and that there would likely be time get the buses in and out to before plume arrival. Lf _ the ==a rgancy i nvn i vax- a fast-bra =kir.g, majeu relas:: of radictier c'?c: large pusL1-ene of-the sir M=s echuse L Ls vvmmunities withiu Lh; EEZ: the number A k ,) (i \ _ . . _ _ _ . - _ - _ . - . _ . _ - - _ _ - _ - _ _ - - .
(.
'? '
Y 1 I y-of-busco &nd dLAvuss : h a tmobe rnu n ted-err co res p~o~~ild needs tm bE-reduced.
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C. TOW COMPANIES
- 1. Federal Auto Repair Byfield, Massachusetts (Mangan) On February 20, 1989, I telephoned and spoke to Alan Whitehead, the owner of Federal Auto Repair. He informed me that.since signing a letter of agreement with Seabrook in 1987 to provide "up to" two tow trucks in the event of an emergency evacuation of the area around Seabrook, he has not. received the promised payment. Therefore, his view is that
't f- he is under no obligation and would not get involved in the event of a radiological emergency.
1 OtV( From this conversation, J ccaciade that Federal Auto Repair cannot be counted on to provide any tow trucks in the i event of an emergency at Seabrook.
- 2. Coady's Towing Service Lawrence, Massachusetts j
(Paolillo) On February 17, 1989, I telephoned and spoke with Ms. Sandy Bouchard, the Office Manager for Coady's towning service in Lawernce, Massachusetts. She stated that 1 Coady's has agreed with Seabrook's owners to supply "up to" all i 15 of their tow vehicles, with drivers, to assist efforts to
~
evacuate the area around Seabrook in the event of a radiological I _______________ A
L. .a. ,.. e4 i 'f .). [ emergency. 'Coady's has.the'following inventory of tow vehicles: 3 Large trucks:(able to move large 18-wheel troller trucks 3
. Carrier. trucks (transports cars on bed of truck)
U 9 Small wreckers (normal size tow trucks used for towing cars) Coady's has 22 drivers, both full and part-time.
^
Drivers who s are on-duty would get dispatched immediately'to the tow yard. tue,be.hG VE M Off-duty drivers would be telephoned; these drivers, once A contacted, cou'1d take 1/2~ hour to respond. [ ( i I
4. MANGAN, PAOLILLO - REDIRECT 19430 h 1 BY MR. BROCK:
. 'Q -
2 Q Ms. Mangan, you were questioned by Mr. Lewald 3 concerning the commitments of the bus companies, as you 4 understood them, based upon your interviews concerning 5 whether these companies would provide transportation in a. 6 radiological emergency at Seabrook; correct? 7 A (Mangan) Yes, I was.
, 8 Q Do you recall part of that. discussion focusing 9 upon whether the numbers contained in the agreements ~were 10 firm numbers or whether those numbers represented maximums 11 or up to numbers?
12 Do you recall that inquiry? 13 A (Mangan) Yes, I do. [~) 14 Q Now, I would like you to turn to page 36 of your (_/ l 15 testimony. And under " Summary of Bus Company 16 Investigation," point number one and I'll quote this.
. 17 It says: "During typical school bus hours most of 18 the school bus companies intend to honor their school 19 contracts first."
20 Now, Ms. Mangan, is that your conclusion based 21 upon the interviews that you conducted with certain bus 22 companies? 23 A (Mangan) Yes, it is. 24 Q Would you, for the record, identify for the Board 25 which companies informed you that they would first honor Heritage Reporting Corporation i (202) 628-4888 I {
MANGAN, PAOLILLO'- REDIRECT 19431 i
- 1 their normal business contracts for schools before they
?- C~ 2 would service;a Seabrook emergency? '
l 1 3 A (Mangan) Weagle Bus Company; Dee Bus Company; 4 McGregor-Smith;' Parent Bus Services;. Park Transportation; i 5 and Denise, Inc.
-6 Q If you could just speak a little more slowly and !
7 clearly to be sure that everybody hears those answers.
. 8 Let me ask you that - you have'just identified, 9 as I understand it, six bus companies who you believe ~ ave 10 made that. statement to you concerning that they would first p 11 service their normal school bus contracts?
12 A (Mangan) Yes. Six. 13 Q I believe the first one you referred to was the
-( 14 Weagle Bus Company?
15 A (Mangan) Yes. 16 -Q Would you with your best memory, and feel free to
, 17 -refer to your notes if you need to refresh your memory, 18 concisely state for the Board what that conversation was 19 with the.Weagle Bus Company representative that led you to 20 tho understanding that they would first service their normal 21 school bus contracts?
22 And maybe I could ask if you would identify the 23 date of your interview and the location of the Weagle Bus 24 Company for the record? 25 A (Mangan) The interview took place on March lith, Heritage Reporting Corporation l (202) 628-4888 l l
l . b;, MANGAN, PAOLILLO - REDIRECT 19432 1 1988 and Weagle Bus Company is located in Shrewsbury,.. Mass. Y- - u 2' Q Who did you speak with on that day? 3 A (Mangan) Alan Weagle. 4 Q And with reference to the issue of prior 5 commitments to the normal school bus contracts, what was the
substance of your conversation?
6 7 A (Mangan) Mr. Weagle, when asked about prior
,. 8 commitment, told me in the event of an emergency at Seabrook 9 his first. priority would be to take the school children home 10 first. ,
11 Q And he specifically said that to you? 12 A (Mangan) Yes, he did. 13 Q Do you recall any further discussion or does that 14 summarize, really, the point he made to you?
'( )
15 A (Mangan) That summarizes it. ! 16 Q Now, I would like you to just go down and again
, 17 for the Board's benefit and briefly summarize with respect 18 to the other five bus companies that you have identified.
19 I believe the next one was the Park Transportation 20 Company? 21 A (Mangan) The Park Transportation Company is I 22 located in Avon, Massachusetts. And I spoke with Vincent 23 Savill and Barney Morrisey on February 1st, 1989. 24 Q And regarding the prior to commitment to service 25 his normal contract, school bus contracts, what did you ( Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 I
e MANGAN, PAOLILLO - REDIRECT 19433 (~~3 1 specifically discuss that day?
\ 1 d 2 A (Mangan) I was specifically told that their 3 school contracts come first in that they would between 7:00 4 and 9:00 a.m. and 2:00 and 4:00 p.m. on Mondays through 5 Friday, they would not be available to respond to Seabrook.
6 Q I believe the next company you indicated was 7 Denise, Inc.?
, 8 A (Mangan) Denise, Inc. is located in Peabody, 9 Massachusetts and I spoke with Richard Cowdell the manager 10 on February 2nd, 1989. Mr. Cowdell also told me that his 11 priority would be his school contracts and he could not 12 guarantee how many buses he could mobilize between 6:30 a.m.
13 and 9:00 p.m. and 1:45 and 3:45 on Monday through Friday. 14 Q To try and perhaps cut this short, is it fair to 1 (S]
\ /
i 15 say that all of the six companies that you identified gave 16 you essentially the same response that during the school bus
. 17 hours they would not be available to respond to a Seabrook 18 emergency?
19 A (Mangan) Yes, they did. 20 Q Now, in interviewing these school bus companies l 21 and their representatives, did you come to an understanding 22 of the kinds of drivers who were driving for these 23 companies? Was there what you could characterize as a l l 24 typical driver or were they part-time, fulltime? What did 1 l 25 you learn in that regard? l
,r's Heritage Reporting Corporation
\~')
5 (202) 628-4888 l l 1 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ l
i l MANGAN, PAOLILLO - REDIRECT 19434 l
,r's 1 MR. LEWALD: I'm going to object to the question.
i
).
2 It's just so broad. In fact, it's about four questions with l l 3 a summary question. l 4 MR. BROCK: I'll withdraw the question and ask l l 5 this. 6 BY MR. BROCK: 7 Q Did you form an opinion after conducting your l , 8 interviews with various school bus representatives as to the l 9 type of person who was driving buses for these companies 10 that you've identified? 11 MR. LEWALD: Objection. 12 MR. BROCK: I think it's clear, Your Honor. 13 MR. LEWALD: Your Honor, she is not being offered
/N 14 as a human behaviorist or a student in --
b 15 JUDGE SMITH: You mean, there are tall people, 16 short people, part-time, fulltime?
, 17 MR. BROCK: That's correct, Your Honor.
18 JUDGE SMITH: Why don't you ask it with respect to 19 hours of employment, could you characterize it. 20 BY MR. BROCK: 21 Q Was it your understanding that most of these 22 drivers were either part-time or fulltime or do you know? 23 A (Mangan) It was my understanding that most of 24 them were part-time. 25 Q Did you have an understanding about whecher or not Heritage Reporting Corporation ( f (202) 62P-4888
k
,; I MANGAN, PAOLILLO - REDIRECT 19435 l
-r s 1 during the sur.mer months these drivers remained employed or
(_,I= i 2 performed bus driving services for these companies? 3 A (Mangan) Not all of them. 4 Q So during the summer months some would not drive; 5 is that correct? A (Mangan) 6 Yes. 7 Q Did you also'have-occasion to interview any bus f 8 companies who normally provide-transportation services other 9 than school bus services? 10 A (Mangan) Yes, I did. 11 Q And with respect to those companies did you also 12 have occasion to discuss with them whether or not their ! l 13 normal business contracts would have priority over 14 responding to a Seabrook emergency?
)
15 A (Mangan) Yes, I did. 4 16 Q Would you identify the companies with whom you had
,: 17 that discussion?
18 A (Mangan) Hudson Bus Lines located in Medford, 19 Mass; Fox Bus Lines located in Newbury, Mass; and Buckingham 20 Bus Services in Groton, Mass. 21 Q And with respect to the Fox Bus line, what's your 22 understanding of the kind of bus services they normally 23 provide? 24 A (Mangan) My understanding is that they're a 25 charter bus company and they do bus tours. Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
1 MANGAN, PAOLILLO - REDIRECT 19436 j l f (~g 1. O Who did you interview at the Fox Bus Line? 1 / 2 A Brian Fox. 3 Q What was Mr. Fox's statement or indication to you 4 as to whether or not his normal butiness contracts would 5 have priorit over responding to a Seabrook emergency? 6 A (Mangan) It was my understanding that Mr. Fox 7 would provide as many buses as physically possible in that
, 8 at sometimes not all of his buses are even in the State of 9 Massachusetts.
10 Q With respect to the Hudson Bus Company, what kind 11 of services do they normally provide? 12 A (Mangan) They provide communicator services to 13 and from Boston and airport services.
.14 Q Who did you interview at the Hudson Bus Company?
15 A (Mangan) Kenneth Hudson, Jr. 16 Q What was the date'of that interview?
. 17 A (Mangan) It was in -- interviewed twice. Once in 18 March of '88 and February of 89.
19 Q And in March of ' 88 what was the Hudson Bus 20 Company's view as to whether or not their normal business 21 would have priority over responding to a Seabrook Emergency? 22 A (Mangan) Mr. Hudson said that his regular 23 contracts are his top priority and he could not guarantee 24 the availability of all those buses. 25 Q And that wt.s in March of 1988? Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
MANGAN, PAOLILLO - REDIRECT 19437
/ 1' A- (Mangan) Yes, it was.
o 2 Q And you reinterviewed a representative of the 3 Hudson Bus Company in February of 19897 4 A (Mangan) Yes, I did. j i 5 Q _Did they have the same or'different response on
6 the issue of whether or not prior commitments to normal 7 business' contracts would have priority? , 8 A (Mangan) He had the same response.
9 Q I believe the third company you identified in this 10 regard was the Buckingham Bus Service; is that correct? 11- A ~(Mangan) Yes, it was. 12 .Q When was that interview conducted? 13 .A (Mangan) March of 1988. 14' Q And who did you interview at the Buckingham Bus
)
15 Service? 16 'A (Mangan) I interviewed Cindy (sic) Leibig, the 17 secretary. 18 Q What was your understanding based upon that 19 interview as to Buckingham's position as to which would have 20 priority, normal contracts or a Seabrook emergency? 21 A (Mangan) It was my understanding that the normal
-22 contracts had priority.
23 Q Is it fair to say, Ms. Mangan, that every bus 24 company that you interviewed that appears in your testimony
- 25 informed you in substance that their normal business Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 1
MANGAN, PAOLILLO - REDIRECT 19438 r" l contracts'would have priority over responding to a Seabrook ]
'2 emergency? I
-3 A (Mangan) Yes. The bus companies I actually spoke 4 to.
5 Q Now, Ms. Mangan, you have in front of you 6 Applicants' Exhibit No. 41. If you could turn to page 119. 7 Hopefully, you will find there a transportation I
.. 8 . agreement with the Weagle Bus Ccmpany, Inc.
9 Do you see that? 10 A (Mangan) Yes, I do. 11 Q .And that's at the beginning of that agreement? 12 A (Mangan) Yes, it is. 13 Q Now, two pages into that agreement, page 121, 14 under " Notification and Response," could you read that ( 15 paragraph into the record, please? 16 A (Mangan) "The company will advise contractor
. 17 approximately 72 hours prior to requisite for training, 18 drills and/or exercise in approximately three hours for an 19 actual emergency. In the event of an actual emergency the 20 contractor will determine and assign for the company's 21 immediate use those vehicles committed to by contract under 22 this agreement. The contractor shall not be penalized by 23 retainer price reduction in the event of a company's
, 24 requisite coincides with the time when all vehicles are on a f# prior commitment providing the contractor to have submitted 25 Heritage .cr>orting Corporation (202) 628-4888 1 a____. _- ___--_ _-___ __ - _ _ _ _ _ _ _ -
(n Q !g [i . MANGAN, PAOLILLO - REDIRECT 19439 1 1- the: required vehicles data as set forth in the terms'of.
' i;;
payment provision." 3 -' Q Now, as I understand your prior testimony you did 4' not specifically refer to this contract provision when you 5 conducted your' interviews; is that correct? 6 A (Mangan) No , I did not. 7 Q But you did discuss the issue of.' prior commitment
.' 8 to which you have already testified?
9 A (Mangan) Yes, I did. 10 11 12-13 14-15 16 'a
- ,; 17 18 19 20 21 22 23.
24 .s. 25 Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
i.' .) I MANGAN, PAOLILLO - REDIRECT 19440 a 1 'Q 'Now I believe Ms. Chan conducted some. questioning a 2 concerning the Marathon Bus Company. _; 3 Do you; recall that? > 4 A- (Mangan) Yes, I do. 5 Q And at~page 25 of.your testimony, do I understand
'? 6 correctly that, in your opinion, Marathon is no longer in .
7 business based upon the investigation you conducted?. c 8 A (Mangan) Yes, it is my opinion. 9 .. Q And could you explain to the. board the sources of 10 information or the investigation you conducted which leads 11 you to that conclusion? 12 -A (Mangan) It is my understanding that Marathon Bus. 13' Line is no icnger in business, and I had believed that 14 Weybridge Bus Co:npany located -in Shewsbury, 'in March' of 15 1988,;was in the process of buying them out. 16 And some time after that, at the end of ' 88 or .4 17 '89,.I found out through the newspaper, and since at one 18 point I had used Marathon Bus Lines for commuting purposes 19 to and from work, that they were no longer running a 20 commuter service to and from Boston, and that Peter Pan Bus 21 Services had taken over their lines. 22 In February of 1989, when I went to find Weybridge 23 to verify that they had in fact taken over Marathon's 24 contract, they were no longer at the Shewsbury location and \. 25 their phone number had been disconnected. Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 .. . .. _ _ _ - - _ _ _ - _ - _ . __ _ i
l l MANGAN, PAOLILLO - REDIRECT 19441 1 Q Okay. And so based upon that investigation, am I ) 9 2 correct you concluded that both Marathon and Weybridge are 3 no longer in business? 4 A (Mangan) To the best of my knowledge. 5 Q All right, Ms. Mangan, I would like to focus for a 6 moment on the McGregor-Smith Bus Company. 7 Am I correct you did interview McGregor-Smith, or 8 a McGregor-Smith representative in March of 19887 9 A (Mangan) Yes, that is correct. 10 Q And you make reference to that interview at page 11 24 of your testimony in the first paragraph? 12 A (Mangan) Yes, I do. 13 Q And based upon your interview conducted at that 14 time -- well, first of all, do you know more precisely when 15 the date of that interview was? 16 A (Mangan) No , I don't. 17 Q But it was some time in March of 19887 18 A (Mangan) Yes, it was. 19 Q And who did you speak with at that time? 20 A (Mangan) I spoke with Stephen Gadd, the vice 21 president. 22 Q And you interviewed him concerning the -- well, 23 why don't you state. What was the purpose of the interview? 24 A (Mangan) The purpose of the interview was to 25 determine what he understood his commitment to Seabrook was Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
MANGAN, PAOLILLO - REDIRECT 19442
,r~x 1 bas 9d on a letter of agreement he had signed. l t )
.'- 2 Q And based upon that interview, was it your 3 understanding that McGregor-Smith was or was not 4 participating to provide buses for Seabrook emergency?
5 A (Mangan) It was my understanding that they were 6 not. 7 Q Now, I believe Ms. Chan asked you a few questions 8 regarding McGregor-Smith concerning whether there had ever 9 been any communications or phone contacts that you were i 10 aware of that McGregor-Smith had received concerning their 11 involvement or lack of involvement in providing buses for 12 Seabrook; is that correct? 13 A (Mangan) Yes. l
~) 14 Q And would you summarize for the Board, did in fact f('J 15 Mr. Gadd advise you that there had been or he had been 16 contacted in this regard? !
17 A (Mangan) Yes, Mr. Gadd advised me that he had 18 been contacted by members of the town in Massachusetts that 19 he normally provided bus services to. 20 Q Did he describe for you what the content of those 21 communications were? j 22 A (Mangan) No, he did not. 23 Q When did he advise you about the fact that he had 24 been contacted? 25 A (Mangan) In March of 1988. 1 /~ Heritage Reporting Corporation ( (202) 628-4888 l - - _ _ - -
,1 MANGAN, PAOLILLO - REDIRECT 19443.
f-~g 1 .Q Ms. Mangan, in reviewing the testimony, am I
.U 2 correct that there were certain companies that you 3 interviewed in March of 1988, who you attempted to 4 reinterview in February of 19897 5 A (Mangan) Yes, there was.
6 And certain of those companies declined to be Q
7 reinterviewed in February of 1989; is that correct?
, 8 A (Mangan)' Yes.
9 Q And those were identified in your written 10 testimony? 11 A (Mangan) Yes, they were. 12 Q~ Is it also true that you attempted to interview a 13 couple of bus companies that had not been previously 14 identified prior to March of 1988, and that you made an 15 attempt to conduct an initial interview in February of 1989? 16 A (Mangan) Yes, I did. 17 Q Okay, and which companies were those? 18 A (Mangan) Big W and Holmes Transportation. I 19 think that was in March of '89. 20 Q And with respect to the Big W Bus Company that you 21 attempted to interview for the first time, when was that, 22 March of ' 89? 23 A (Mangan) That was in February of '89. 24 Q February of 19897 25 And what response did you receive? (- ) Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ - _ . _ _ _ _)
I-t MANGAN, PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19444 l
.fe~g 1 A (Mangan) I was told to contact Ropes & Gray.
. - 2 Q They declined to be interviewed. Is that fair to l
3 say? 4 A (Mangan) Yes.- 5 0 And you also identified the Holmes Bus Company 6 'that you interviewed or attempted to interview'in March of 7 1989; is that correct?
, 8 A (Mangan) Yes.
9 Q And what response'did you receive when you 10 attempted to contact and interview the Holmes Bus Company? 11 A (Mangan) I was told to contact Ropes & Gray. 12 Q They declined to be interviewed? 13 A (Mangan) Yes. 14 MR. BROCK: Your Honor, I have no further ( 15 questions of the witness. 16 JUDGE SMITH: Mr. Lewald. 17 MR. LENALD: Yes, Your Honor, a few questions. 18 RECROSS EXAMINATION 19 BY MR. LEWALD: 20 Q Ms. Mangan, when you called the Big W Bus Company 21 and whoever you talked to there suggested that you, or told 22 you to contact the firm of Ropes and Gray, was there more to 23 the conversation than that? 24 A (Mangan) I believe I -- I may have asked him just 25 to confirm the number of buses that he had agreed to provide ( Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
I i;p
'MANGAN, PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19445 1 and he rould not even confirm that.
s
]
R. 2 Q Now wasLit your understanding that Big W, or' 3 . whoever you talked to at Big W would'not talk to you in any 4 -event-or just'did not want.to talk to you without the 5 presence of the counsel? 6 A :(Mangan) ltt was my understanding he did not want 7 to talk to me at that time..
-,. 8 Q At that; time?
9 Did you ask Big W whether or not they would 10 consent to talk'in the presence of counsel? 11 A (Mangan) No. He did not give me a chance. 12 Q' He didn't give you a chance? 13 A (Mangan) .No, he did not. 14' Q Did either anybody from the Big W or Holmes say {} 15 that they had declined to' talk to the Attorney General's 16 representative, you, under any circumstances?
,~ 17 A (Mangan) No, they did not.>
18 Q And it's your conclusion, is it not, that they 19 declined to be interviewed period? 20 A (Mangan) They declined to be interviewed by me or 21 Mr. Paolillo at that time. 22 Q At that time. 23 You would agree, would you not, that this is 24 somewhat -- that that's somewhat different than declining to-25 be interviewed at any time or under any circumstances? Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 i
l ' p-
- 7 NANGAN, PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19446 1 A (Mangan) 'Yes, I would believe that it was-
*. 2 different.
3- Q And neither anyone from the Big W or the Holmes 4 Bus Company'made that statement to you; that-the company 5- would'not-be agreeable to'be. interviewed at any time under 6 any circumstance?
- 7. A (Mangan) Neither made that statement.
l',. 8 Q On page 25 of your testimony, Ms. Mangan, the top 9 of that page is headed " Marathon /Weybridge"? 10 A (Mangan) Yes. 11 Q- And this name that you have listed there, 1:2. Marathon /Weybridge, was because of your understanding that 13- there had been a merger, or there was a merger of Marathon 14 with'Weybridge, or a buyout?
)
15 A (Mangan) A buyout or something of that sort. 16 Yes. 7 1, 17 Q And you went to the last address you had for 18 Weybridge -- 19 A (Mangan) Yes, I did. 20 Q -- in order to determine that; is that as I 21 understand your testimony to be. 22 A (Mangan) Yes, I did. 23 Q And Weybridge was not at that address, I take it 24 from you testimony. 25 A (Mangan) No , it was not. Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 i
)
MANGAN, PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19447 1 Q Did you make any effort to find whether or not 3
^]/
M 2 Weybridge existed anywhere else? 3 A (Mangan) No , I did not. 4 Q Oh, you didn't call the Applicant or New Hampshire 5 Yankee to determine if Weybridge had a new address, did you? 6 A (Mangan) No, I did not. 7 Q If I could refer to page 22 of your testimony.
, 8 And this is with respect to the Fox Bus Line, is it not, of 9 M111 bury, Massachusetts?
10 A (Mangan) Yes. 11 Q And if I could refer to page 23 of your testimony 12 and the last paragraph of that testimony. 13 Do you see that? [L.,)t 14 A (Mangan) Yes. 15 Q And you say that, "We have to assume from their l 16 refusal to speak to us that they finally did get paid and do
. 17 intend to provide the buses specified in the agreement."?
18 A (Mangan) Yes. 19 Q Now, is it my understanding that following your 20 response to Mr. Brock's questions with respect to Fox Bus 21 Company, you are now changing that testimony? 22 A (Mangan) No , I am not. 23 Q That still stands as your testimony? 24 A (Mangan) I'm referring to the specific agreement. l 25 Q I beg your pardon? f ('"),/ Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
L..Y , NANGAN, PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19448 1 A (Mangan) I'm referring to my understanding the l (' 2- agreement to be during that interview in '88. 3 Q And this was an agreement that was the subject of 4 a letter of credit? Excuse me.. A letter of agreement..
'5 A. (Mangan) -Yes.
6 Q Now the substance of what Mr. Fox told you with
'7 respect to his prior commitment was that getting the kids
. 8 home would have a priority if he received a: response call 9 from Seabrook, is that --
10 A (Mangan) Well, Fox Bus Lines is not a school bus 11 service. They are a charter bus company. 12 JUDGE COLE: I'm sorry. I-didn't hear that, Ms. l L 13 Mangan. .They'are what? () 14 15 THE WITNESS: be to the school children. (Mangan) Their priority would not They are a charter bus company,
'16 not a school bus company. ., 17 BY MR. LEWALD:
18 Q I'm sorry. What company were you referring to to 19 get the kids home? You did -- 20 A (Mangan) I did mention six school bus companies 21 that had said that their commitment was to the school 22 children. I'm not sure which one you' re specifically 23 referring to. 24 Q Do you have any recollection as to which one you 25 were referring to when you used the phrase "get the kids Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 l w___ __ . _ _ _ _ _ _ _
MANGAN, PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19449 3 1 home"?
\j
. 2 Was that Weagle Bus Company?
3 A (Mangan) Yes, it was. 4 Q And what he told you was that if he was engaged in 5 the effort to getting the kids home from school, he would 6 not be able to respond to a call from Seabrook; is that ! ) 7 true?
, 8 A (Mangan) Could you ask that question again?
9 0 Yes. Whom did you speak at Weagle, if you 10 could -- l 11 A (Mangan) Alan Weagle. 12 Q Alan Weagle. 13 Did Mr. Weagle tell you that if he received a call 14 from Seabrook to respond to an emergency, that he would have f~)) 15 to give priority to getting the kids home from school? 16 A (Mangan) Yes, he did. 17 Q And this is, in essence, what six other bus l ( 18 companies told you? Is that what you testified to? { j 19 A (Mange.n) Yes, it was. 20 JUDGL MCCOLLOM: "Six" other bus companies? 21 THE WITNESS: (Mangan) Five other. 22 MR. LEWALD: Five other bus companies. Six in 23 all. 24 BY MR. LEWALD: 25 Q Was it your understanding that Mr. Weagle's () Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
MANGAN, PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19450 i i fs 1 concern was that the call from Seabrook might be at a time 2 when he was engaged or about to be engaged in bringing the 3 children home from school? 1 i 4 A (Mangan) It was my understanding that Mr. ; 5 Weagle's concerns was if a call came when the children were 6 actually in school or on their way or coming home from 7 school, there would be a problem. i 8 Q But on other occasions there would not be a 9 problem? 10 A (Mangan) No, there would not. 11 Q That is, Mr. Weagle was not concerned with what he 12 might have to do under a school contract a week following a 13 response to a call from Seabrook; is that true? 14 MR. BROCK: Could we get clarification on that 15 question, Mr. Lewald? I don't think I understood it. 16 MR. LEWALD: Well, if she can understand it, she
, 17 can respond to it. If she can't, she will say so, I'm 18 sorry.
19 THE WITNESS: (Mangan) No, I don't understand it. 20 BY MR. LEWALD: 21 Q Mr. Weagle was concerned with an immediate 22 conflict, was he not, between responding to his school 23 contract and responding to a call from Seabrook? 24 A (Mangan) Yes, that was the -- 25 Q And you were not reading Mr. Weagle's response was Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
1 1 NANGAN, PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19451 , l 73 1 that he could not respond to Seabrook, to a call from n' ) 2 Seabrook at any time because he had to be in a " standby" 3 position to respond to a school contract in the next day or 4 next week or whatever? 5 A (Mangan) No, that's not my understanding. 6 Q And this would be true with respect to the other 7 bus companies that you referred to, the other five?
, 8 A (Mangan) Yes.
9 Q Now if I could refer you to Applicants' Exhibit 10 53, which is the 1989 questionnaire that you were provided 11 by the attorneys at the Attorney General's office. 12 Are you familiar with that? 13 A (Mangan) Yes, I am. 14 Q Or do you have it before you? [\_ } 15 Now, if I understand your practice with respect to 16 this questionnaire, and indeed the earlier questionnaire . 17 that you used in 1988, you would ask the respondent whom you 18 were interviewing questions that might be suggested by the 19 questionnaire, but not necessarily those that were actually 20 in the questionnaire. 21 Is that true? ! 22 A (Mangan) Yes, some questions on the questionnaire 23 I did ask, but not all of them, and I may bave asked other 24 ones that aren't on the questionnaire. 25 Q Well, could you now tell us which questions you k (,,) Heritage Reporting Corporation l , (202) 628-4888 j i
m a , Li MANGAN, PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19452
- 1. did ask with respect.to each of the questionnaires that you
'* 2 have' filled out?
3 Yes or no. 4 A (Mangan) If'I went through. questionnaire by 5- questionnaires, I could tell you a specific interview what 6 questions I saked. 7 Q Even though the questions were not 'a the words of i: 8 the questionnaire? 9 A (Mangan) I don't know if I could. 10 Q You don't know now if you could reframe the 11 question you put to the witness unless it was reading from 12 the questionnaire? 13 A (Mangan) No. I old read -- on some of them, I () 14
- L5 did rephrase the questions.
Q And would it be possible to go back and tell us ic which ones you did rephrase and how you rephrased the
. 17 question?
18 A (Mangan) You mean generally or specifically for 19 each interview? 20 Q Well, generally first. 21 A (Mangan) I don't think I would be able to do it j 22 generally. 23 JUDGE SMITH: Well -- 24 MR. LEWALD: I beg your pardon? 25 JUDGE SMITH: I'm just waiting. Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
r . i, , r MANGAN, PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19453
,o 1 Ua 2-
~
BY MR. LEWALD: 3 Q I didn't hear your answer. 4 A (Mangan) .I could not make a general statement for 5 'all' interviews on which questions I rephrased. 6 Q Would you be able to tell in any instance where 7 you reframed a question?.
. 8 A (Mangan) What do you mean by " reframed"?
9 Q Well, didn't you testify that you did not ask the 10 questions that appear on the questionnaire in the very words 11 of the questionnaire; that you reframed the questions and 12 asked the witnesses a similar question or something that 13 would carry the thought, in your view, but not in the 14 specific language of the question? j l: 15 A (Mangan) Well, on the first page of the
- 16 questionnaire, the first question, I did not reframe thLt . 17 question.
18 19 20 21 22 23 24 t ' Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 l j
- __7_
MANGAN, PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19454 1 BY MR. LEWALD: v a 2 Q Are you referring to Exhibit 53? 3' A (Mangan) Yes. 4 Q The first page of this section headed by 5 " Introduction?" A (Mangan) On the second page where the 6 I'm sorry. 7 questions actually start. The first-one on the page.
> 8 Q You say yeo did not or did ask that question?
9 A (Mangan) I did ask that question. 10 JUDGE SMITH: What redirect does this recross 11 address to? 12 MR. LENALD: Well, Your Honor, this is -- redirect ! 13 is the testimony in which they have not formed a belief as l /'T 14 to result of an investigation that was performed as to fU 15 certain facts. 16 This was not covered in initial cross because it
. 17 was our belief that it was not part of the testimony.
l 18 JUDGE SMITH: So you have a rather lengthy recross i 19 ahead of you, don't you? ; 20 MR. LENALD: I appreciate we do. But I thought 21 that we would have an opportunity to examine into this area 22 of which we had not examined with regard to before under the 23 understanding that it was no longer part of the testimony. l 24 And it is now being brought -- and our 25 understanding that it was not part of the testimony is that j e i y ~\ g j Heritage Reporting Corporation ] (202) 628-4888 l l ___________o
L I !. l L3 ; MANGAN,_PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19455 (3 1 Mr. Brock' was going to redraft it in some fe?:m that might be t)
. 2 -- subject to agreement by Chan and myself for submission i I
3 into evidence. 4 He had not done this. And it was my understanding 5 that he did not intend to; and therefore, the testimony is l - 6 no longer being offered. 7 JUDGE SMITH: And? 8 MR. LEWALD: Then we found out that Mr. Brock 9 indeed did intend to reorder the testimony, if you will, and 10 ask the time to do it and that is how we spent the rest of 11 Friday morning do3ng that. And it's this new version, if 12 you will, of the testimony that we're examining -- that I'm 13 examining now. ( 14 JUDGE SMITH: And as I predict you have a very 15 long examination? 16 MR. LEWALD: No , Your Honor. 17 JUDGE SMITH: Okay. 18 BY MR. LEWALD: 19 Q Ms. Mangan, on what documents, if any, would you 20 rely to recap any aspect of your investigation? 21 A (Mangan) Are you asking the documents I relied on 22 to draft the testimony? 23 JUDGE SMITH: She doesn't understand what " recap" 24 means. 25 c::> M.rie. orein, cor or.eion (202) 628-4888 l i
i 3
- l. MANGAN, PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19456 A. 1- BY MR. .LEWALD:
( b- 2 Q On which documents did you rely to draft your 3 testimony? l l 4 A (Mangan) The notes I took on the interviews j 5 either on these forms or on a piece of. paper. p l ' 6 Q You filled in these forms as the respondents-were 7 being interviewed?
, 8 A (Mangan) Yes, I did.
9 Q And you put the respondent's responses you 10 elicited in your examination under what headings you thought 11 were proper on your questionnaire? 12 A (Mangan) Yes, I did. 13 Q I understand from that that the responses that
/~'\ 14 appear under the questionnaire were not necessarily to the U
15 questions above the answers that appear on the 16 questionnaire? 17 A (Mangan) No. When they answered a question 18, without me asking it usually I wrote it down at the bottom i 19 or on the back or somewhere else on the questionnaire. 20 Q On the bottom of the back? 21 That is the responses that you couldn't find a 22 place to put them on the questionnaire? 23 A (Mangan) So I wouldn't have to look through the 24 whole questionnaire and go back to page eight when we're 25 only on page two. It's awkward to turn to the pages and ( Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 l m_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ . _
1 MANGAN, PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19457 y*'s 1 wrd;e in-the specific spot if they answered a question
- 2' without me asking it.
3 Q Did you record everything that the witnesses 4 responded to with respect to your interviews of them? 5 A (Mangan) Yes, I did. 6 Q Every single thing that was said? 7 A (Mangan) I believe that I did.
, 8 JUDGE SMITH: Now you just changed the question in 9 mid-stream there. It's not quite fair.
10 First you said, did she record everything that the 11 people responded to. And she says, yes. And you l 12 characterize that response as being everything that was
-13 said, and that's an entirely different thought.
14 MR. LEWALD: I would ask that question. 15 BY MR. LEWALD: 1 16 Q Did you record everything that was said between 17 you and the respondent? 18 A (Mangan) Not everything. 19 Q Did you record only those things that you thought 20 were pertinent to the questionnaire? l 21 A (Mangan) I recorded anything I thought was 22 pertinent to determining whether or not what they understood 23 their agreement to be. ,
)
24 Q What they understood their agreement to be.
. l 25-And by " agreement" you're referring to what O
Q Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
7 MANGAN,.PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19458
'^g i document?
\' j
. 2 A (Mangan) I'm not implying to a specific document.
1 3 I'm referring to their understanding of an agreement that 1 4 they have with Seabrook, either a letter Of agreement or a 5 contract. But I did not refer to a specific' document. 4 6 0 You're referring to the general arrangement? 7 A (Mangan) Yes, the general arrangement.
, 8 Q Now have you looked at Applicants' Exhibit 41 over 9 the weekend or since you last testified?
A 10 A (Mangan) No , I have not. 11 Q You have Exhibit 41 before you, do you not? 12 A (Mangan) Yes, I do. 13 Q If I could ask you to turn to page ll? [T
'\,_]
14 A (Mangan) Is that Volume 17 15 Q I beg your pardon? 16 A (Mangan) Is that Volume 17 l 17 Q Volume 1. Yes. 18 Do you have that? j 19 A (Mangan) Yes, I do. 20 0 That is a contract with the Dee Bus Company of 21 Concord, Massachusetts; is it not? 22 A (Mangan) Yes, it is. 23 Q Is your testimony that you were or were not aware 24 of the existence of this contract at the time you 25 interviewed Dee Bus Company?
,r m.
Heritage Reporting Corporation ('- ) (202) 628-4888 l L__-____
MANGAN, PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19459 (' l' A- (Mangan) I~ don't remember, y 2 Could I ask you to turn to the second page of that-Q 3 . contract, and the third line from the top of that contract, 4- second page. 5 A (Mangan) Where? 6 Q Do you see that? 7 A .(Mangan) Yes. i ,. 8 Q The third line? 9 A (Mangan) Yes, I do. 9 ' 10 Q And that says: " Contractors' drivers shall have 11 received emergency preparedness training prior to vehicle 12 operation." 13 Do you see that? 14 A .(Mangan) Yes, I do. ( 15 .Q Were you aware that was a requirement of the Dee 16 contract?
;, 17 A' (Mangan) Do you mean before I went there?
18 'Q At any time? 19 A (Mangan) During the interview Mr. .Dee did tell me 20 that it was his understanding that his drivers would be 21 provided training. 22 Q Were you aware that all of the bus drivers for all 23 of the bus companies were to be provided training under the 24 individual contracts for those companies? (Mangan) 25 A Yes. I believe they were all going to Heritage Reporting Corporation L (202) 628-4888 ,
--m.__-__--- _ _ _ _ _ . - _ - _ _ . - _ _ _ _ _
f: t . MANGAN, PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19460 ; i 1 be provided training. { [ ("]
\m- / ~l
. 2 Q You believe that they all were going through 3 training?
4 A' (Mangan) Yes. 5 Q Did you have any idea what the training entailed? 6 A (Mangan) No , I did not. 7 Q During your interview of the ambulance companies,
,- 8 were you aware that the ambulance company drivers were to i
9 receive training of a particular nature? 10 A (Mangan) Yes. .I'was aware that they were going 11 to receive training. 12 .Q And did you know what kind of training? 13 A' (Mangan) No, I didn't know.
\ 14 Q Could I refer you to page 97 uf Applicants'
[O 15 Exhibit 41. 16 Do you have that? 17 A (Mangan) Yes, I do. 18 Q This is the Schedule A of the Stavis Ambulance 19 -Service Company contract with New Hampshire Yankee, is it 20 not? 21 A (Mangan) Yes, it is. 4 22- 0 Could you look at page 99 of Exhibit 51 -- Exhibit 23 41, I'm sorry. 24 Do you have that? l 25 A (Mangan) Yes, I do. Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4889 h 4
-9' l
MANGAN, PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19461L i l/ ' 1 Q Does this describe the kind of training that I b 2 drivers of the ambulances are to have? ; i 3 A (Mangan) Yes, it does. 4 Q And it says, " Document training in the care;and
~5 handling of contaminated individuals,"' dons it not?
6 A (Mangan) Yes, it does. ! 7 Q If you had this knowladge at the time you
, 8 interviewed any of the bus company owner / operators would 9 that have changed your testimony? Of the ambulance drivers, s.
l 10 I'm sorry? 11 MR. BROCK: I object to the form, Your Honor. I 12 think it's vague. I don't understand the point of the i 13 question. () 14 15 MR. LEMALD: Well, let me rephrase it. probably jumbled ambulances and buses here, so that it may I think I 16 end up unintelligible.
.. 17 BY MR. LEMALD:
.18 Q Your testimony expresses a belief, does it not, l 19 with respect to how many ambulances will be provided by the 20 ambulance companies that you interviewed, does it not? l 21 A (Mangan) Yes, it does.
22 O If you were aware of the requirement of training 23 of ambulance drivers as it appears in schedule C of the 24 Stavis Ambulance Service Company, would that have caused you 25 to change your testimony in any way? Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 1 [ L __ _ ____ =_ _
1 MANGAN, PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19462
;r-{ 1 .MR. BROCK: Your. Honor, I'll object.- I think the L "(j 2 . question is.ver- Sroad and open-ended and I don't think it's 3 ' fair to.put soms ..ing that. broad to the witness.
.4 Would it change her' testimony in.any way, that 5 fact.
6 JUDGE SMITH: Well, it's her testimony. 7 Overruled. I think we could arrive at it more
.. 8 crisply by pointing-out the aspect of the testimony that he 9' . believes is amenable to change, but that's his call.
10 THE WITNESS: .(Mangan) No, it would not. 11 BY MR. LEMALD: 12 Q In your interviews did you have some discussion 13 with ambulance owner / operators with respect to t 14 contamination? l. 15 A (Mangan) Yss, I did. 16 Q Nhat was your understanding of contamination at
. 17- the time of these interviews?
18 What did you mean by " contamination?" 19 A (Mangan) My understanding of contamination was 20 that the 10 cities and towns in Massachusetts that would 21 have to be evacuated may be contaminated. 22 Q I lidn't hear you? l 23 A (Mangan) That the 10 cities and towns in 1~ l 24 Massachusetts that had to be evacuated may be ccataminated. 25 I don't -- I'm not exactly sure -- I don't know what the Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
l ll l MANGAN, PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19463 l l /' - 1 definition of " contamination" is. I .- ( 2 Well, you had interviews with ambulance Q 3 owner / operators with respect to contamination, did you not? 4 A .(Mangan) Yes, I did. 5 Q And you didn't understand really what the meaning l 6 of the word was when you were talking to the 7 owner / operators, did you?
, 8 A (Mangan) I understood it to be -- I understood 9 .the contamination was in some way, that going into ther,e 10 areas or coming in contact with these people that these 11 people -- ambulance drivers and other people could be 12 contaminated with radiation.
13 Q At the time were you aware or were you not aware 14 (d that the ambulance drivers were to receive instructions and
\
15 training in the area of handling contaminated injured 16 individuals?
, 17 A (Mangan) I was aware that they would receive 18 training.
19 Q But you didn't know the nature of the training? 20 A (Mangan) I didn't know the specifics of the 21 training. 22 Q Now, in the questionnaire you use the phrase -- 23 let me strike that. I would ask you, if ysu would, refer to 24 Applicants' Exhibit 53 in the questionnaire. 25 And on the fourth page of that exhibit and l Her.!tage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 i
MANGAN, PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19464
/ 1 questio.nnaire and halfway down the page there's a question, 4- 2 "Do your drivers specifically understand that they mcy be 3 asked to drive into an airborne plume of dangerous radiation 4 coming from the Seabrook plant?"
5 What is " dangerous radiation" as you understand it
^
6 to be? 7 A (Mangan) I'm sorry, I haven't found the question.
, 8 Q I'm sorry, if I referred you to the thire i>aJe, it I
9 should be the fourth'page. 10 JUDGE COLE: It's the third page of questicas, but il the fourth page in the exhibit. lL2 (Pause to locate document) 13 BY MR. LEWALD: () 14 15 Q. Did you ever ack that question to any of the respondents that-you interviewed? 16 (Long pause)
, 17 18 19 l
20 ) l' 21 22 23 24 4 25 O) i g Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 1 j
7 MANGAN,- PAOLILLO , RECROSS 19465 1 THE WITNESS: (Mangan) .I' don't have the page
..- -2 on'--
3 BY MR.'LEMALD: b l' '
'4 Q I. beg.your pardon?
i 5 A (Mangan) .I do not have'this page on the surveys 6 that I'm looking at that I had filled out.
; 7 0 . Well, did you ever --
, 8 JUDGE SMI.TH: That question only appears on one of 9 the two forms.
10 MR. LEMALD: It appears on the -- 11 JUDGE SMITH: Are you aware of that? 12- MR. LEMALD: -- exhibit, I believe, Your Honor. 13 JUDGE SMITH: Well, there are two: forms. One.ils j 14 .the one.that she used in the later.round and one that was 15 appkrently used in the earlier round. .The: Exhibit 53 '.s the 16 one which has the question to which you are inquiring.
. 17 . MR . LENALD: Used in the later round, I believe.
- 18. JUDGE SMITH:, No, that's the earlier round 19 apparently, and the Attorney General ExhibitL76, I think 20 'what she has before her, does not contain that exact 21 question while it contains a similar question.
22 MR. LEMALD: It's my understanding that Exhibit 53 23 was the questionnaire used in the 1989 -- 24 JUDGE SMITH: Why don't you ask her about that? 25 MR. LEWALD: I did earlier, but I'll ask again. Beritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 L_ ,- _J
MANGAN, PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19466
N 1 JUDGE SMITH: Well, here, let's point out N^] 2 something that's self-evident from both exhibits. Applicant l
l l 3 Exhibit 53 and Massachusetts Attorney General 76 differ in 4 some respects. Both of them, however, state at the end some 5 reference to last June. On the third to the last page both 6 of them say, "Last June we had an exercise," which would I 7 place the development of each of these forme after June of
. 8 '88. Therefore, after the spring of '88 interviews.
9 MR. LEWALD: With respect to the exercise, yes. 10 JUDGE SMITH: Well, since the exercise was in June 11 of ' 88, the first round of interviews was in March of ' 88, 12 and the second round of interviews was in February of ' 89. 13 MR. LEWALD: Well, maybe I should start over 1 j (,~}, 14 again. My first question was what was her understanding o.f s_ l 15 the phrase " dangerous radiation". And then I think I then 16 followed with a question had she ever asked that question.
, 17 JUDGE SMITH: Right. And then she starts looking 18 through a lot of forms, and I'm saying that one form has the 19 question on it and one does not.
20 BY MR. LEWALD: 21 Q Well, apart from your -- if I can just break in. 22 Apart from what appears on your notes that appear 23 on the questionnaire form, do you have en independent memory 24 of asking any of the respondents whom you interviewed about 25 dangerous radiation? 7 ( ) Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
lul
;g ._
MANGAN, PAOLILLO - RECROSS. 19467 cf m . 1 A (Mangan) I believe I asked Front Line Ambulance. ] h 2 Q- And my question is, what did you understand I 8 3 dangerous ~ radiation to be? l 4 'A (Mangan) I understood it'to be something that ; 5 would be life threatening. 6 Q Life threatening?
; 7 ,
A (Mangan) Yes.
,. 8 Q And did you define it in those terms when you 9 interviewed, you say Front Line Ambulance manager or 10 operator?
11 A~ (Mangan) No , I did not. 12 -Q Do you know how he was using'the term? 13 A- (Mangan) I do not know. He just used the term 14 " contaminated".
.15 Q And can I ask you whether you have any 16 : understanding as to how the Seabrook, or the procedures of . 17 the'Seabrook plan, emergency plan for handling a. life 18 threatening radiation problem?
19 A (Mangan) No, I do not know. 20 Q And I believe you told us earlier you had no idea 21 whatsoever with respect to dose management controls might be 22 instituted under the Seabrook plan. 23 A (Mangan) No. I don't believe that's what I said. ! 24 Q What did you say? 25 A (Mangan) I don't remember the question being Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
.y. r g., Q.( MANGAN, PAOLILLO.- RECROSS 19468 1 asked like'that. 7
..' 2 -Q Well, it's fair to say that you have:no knowledge 3 of how the Seabrook plan'provides for the monitoring'of 4 emergency. workers to determine what dose.they may.have bsen 5' exposed to?
6 A (Mangan) Some.of the transportation company 7 representatives did tell me about a dosimetry recorder which
, 8 would measure the radiation level, I believe.
9- Q But you had no knowledgea of that appearing in the-10 plan itself? 11 A (Mangan) Yes, I knew that was in the plan, 12 Q You knew it was in the plan? 13 A (Mar.gan) After May of 1908. ( 14 Q After talking to the bus operators? J
)
15 A (Mangan) No, I knew in June as I observed the 16 drill.
; 17 Q. I didn't hear you.
18 A (Mangan) I knew as of June, because I observed 19 part of the drill. ; 20 Q Oh, after June of 1988. 21 A (Mangan) Yes. 22 Q And were you an assigned observer on the part of 23 the Attorney General's office? 24 Was that an assignment? 25 A (Mangan) Yes, it was.
-Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
l l MANGAN, PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19469 f 1 MR. LEWALD: I have no further questions. l 2 JUDGE SMITH: Mr. Brock, Attorney General's 3 Exhibit 76 seems to be the eame form as Applicants' Exhibit 4 53. But the Board was led to believe otherwise, because 5 there is a page missing on Attorney General's Exhibit 76 6 which is the page that contains the question that Mr. Lewald 7 was cross-examining on.
, 8 MR. BROCK: Your Honor, if I understand the page 9 that Mr. Lewald is questioning on, that's the fourth page of 10 Applicants' 53, third question; is that the one?
11 JUDGE SMITH: That's right, yes. 12 MR. BROCK: Okay. Your Honor, I don't know how 13 Applicants' 53 was put together. I can only say that -- () 14 15 JUDGE SMITH: MR. BROCK: You mean how -- Well, with respect to it, for example, 16 Your Honor, I'm looking at another interview form which Ms. 17 Mangan used. This is the Parent Company, for example, dated 18 2-2-88. I think it means February of ' 89. This is the 19 newer form. There is no page like the one to which Mr. 20 Lewald was referring. Let me just double check that to be 21 sure, but I don't believe there is. 22 JUDGE SMITH: You have got a dangle in the 23 preceding page, unless you just took it out and left the 24 dangle there. If you look at the third page of Attorney 25 General Exhibit 76, the last word is "what". Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
P i l-l HANGAN, PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19470
,/'% 1 MR. BROCK: I see. All right, let me just check.
.h 2 Your Honor, I see how the sentence flows.
3 JUDGE SMITH: And it just turns out that that is 4 the Front Line, the one that she asked the question of. And 5 the place to record the answer is missing, if it existed. l 6 Maybe somebody tcok that page out by design.
.7 MR. DIGNAN: Is 76 the Front Line Company?
. , 8 JUDGE SMITH: Right. l 9 MR. LEWALD: Yes. 10 MR. BROCK: Well, Your Honor, at the break I can 11 check again with Ms. Mangan. All I can say is I have at 12 least one other -- 13 JUDGE SMITH: She's sitting here listening to all
. () 14 of this.
15 Do you have any views about this little mystery? I 16 THE WITNESS: (Mangan) Okay. When I answered
. 17 that question, I wasn't looking at the right question 18 because I didn't have the form in front of me.
19 JUDGE SMITH: How about the form that you used? 20 THE WITNESS: (Mangan) The form that I used I 21 believe didn't have that question on it. 22 JUDGE SMITH: Any of the forms that you used? 23 THE WITNESS: No. On one form, which you filled 24 out, it was on it? Which one was that? 4 25 JUDGE MCCOLLOM: Would you look at the third page O Q Heritage Reporting (202) 628-4888 Corporation I
MANGAN, FAOLILLO - RECROSS 19471 1 of each one of those and tell us what the first line is on
. c. each one of them? j I
3 THE WITNESS: (Mangan) On Front Line, the first j 4 words were, "Were there any conditions". 5 JUDGE MCCOLLOM: Now look at the fourth page and 6 tell me what that was. ! f 7 THE WITNESS: (Mangan) "Have they been told that ;
, 8 those will have to drive into". I 9 JUDGE MCCOLLOM: Okay. Then you are missing a 10 page.
11 JUDGE SMITH: Yes. What did you just read from? 12 THE WITNESS: Front Line. 13 JUDGE MCCOLLOM: The Front Line.
,, 14 JUDGE SMITH: Right. Now pick up another one and 15 what do you have at the top of the third page?
16 THE WITNESS: "Have they been told". 17 JUDGE P'.~.I T H : It's the fourth page, isn't it? 18 MS. CHAN: Your Honor, the Staff is having a 19 problem understanding how this came about, because the Staff 20 examined -- it's on page 19371 -- on the fourth page of the 21 questionnaire, and I put all those questions, there is three 22 questions about contaminated area into the record. 23 JUDGE SMITH: Oh, but see, there's another 24 question on other pages about contaminated area. 4 25 MS. CHAN: This was on the fourth page of the i
't Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
MANGAN, PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19472
~'
1 questionnaire that I had examined on last Friday. 1 ~' -2 JUDGE SMITH: Right. 3 JUDGE COLE: Of Applicants' Exhibit 53. 4 JUDGE SMITH: There is two questions that are very 5 similar. On Applicants' Exhibit 53 on the fourth page, 6 there is a question, "Do they understand that they may be 7 asked to drive into an airborne plume of dangerous radiation
, 8 coming from the Seabrook plant or into areas contaminate 9 with dangerous radiation after the plume is passed?"
10 And then a similar question appears on the first 11 question of the next page. Well, that's about protective 12 clothing. 13 In any event, all the ' forms that you have here
/D 14 seem to be missing that question.
b 15 THE WITNESS: (Mangan) Yes. 16 JUDGE SMITH: And that's was your experience. 17 Those were the forms you used and it did not have that page. 18 THE WITNESS: (Mangan) Yes, that's correct. 19 JUDGE SMITH: I'm going to also ask you to look at 20 Applicants' Exhibit 53 here. Look at the fourth page and 21 confirm whether not you used that. 22 (Document proffered to witness.) 23 JUDGE SMITH: I'm asking you really the same 24 question except I wish you to look at the page that is 25 missing so you have a more assurance in your answer. Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
l,'q . MANGAN, PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19473 1 We'll take'a 15-minute morning break and you can a 2, check and see if that's the case. l 3 THE WITNESS: (Mangan) Okay.
.'4- (Whereupon, a recess was.taken.)
5
.6 7
,. 8 9
10 11 12 13
'14 15 16 , 17 18 19
- 7. 0 21
! 22 23 24 25 Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 .I
MANGAN, PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19474 1 JUDGE SMITH: Have you examined the two versions
- (j)I
/"
2 of the form?
-3 THE WITNESS: Yes, I have. ~
4 JUDGE SMITH: What have you learned?
'5 THE WITNESS: (Mangan) I've learned on three of 6 my interview forms, the page we're talking about is the last c ,. 7 page on my form.
, 8 And on the other ones the last page isn't there.
9 JUDGE SMITH: The last page? 10 That wasn't even into our discussion. 11 THE WITNESS: (Mangan) The last page on my forms
'12 is the page four that we're talking about.
13 JUDGE SMITH: I see. 14 What then is Attorney General's Exhibit 76, which t
)
15 has several pages after that page? The page in question. 16 Would you tell me again what you found out with 1
, 17 respect to the fourth page on Applicants' Exhibit 537 18 THE WITNESS: (Mangan) What I found out with 19 respect to this page, on three of the forms that I used --
]
20 on three of the interviews this page is attached as the last 21 page on the interview form. And all the rest of the pages i 22 are omitted. 23 JUDGE SMITH: Okay. And what is the last page on 24 the other forms? 25 THE WITNESS: (Mangan) The last page on the other Reporting corporation
' ( ]) Heritage (202) 628-4888 1 d--.--..---.-_-_.--_._.--____--.___ _ . ~ . _ _
m MANGAN, PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19475 f'1, 1 forms is where it says, " Drivers" -- t ! JUDGE SMITH:
~
2 " Drivers union?" 3 THE WITNESS: (Mangan) Yes. 4 JUDGE McCOLLOM: On the three that you did find, 5 did you fill out the questions and did you ask the questions 6 on that page? 7 THE WITNESS: (Mangan) One of the three. I asked
, 8 the specific question that I was asked before.
9 JUDGE McCOLLOM: And that was? 10 THE WITNESS: (Mangan) That was on Hudson Bus 11 Lines. 12 MR. BROCK: Your Honor, just to be sure the Board 13 is fully satisfied, I believe Mr. Paolillo also conducted a ['V ! 14 search and has some information on the same point, if the 15 Board is interested. , 16 THE WITNESS: (Paolillo) The A survey ir, question 17 is that I filled out, five of them have that particular page 18 and it is also attached as the last page. And on three of 19 them the page is omitted; I don't have them at all. 20 JUDGE McCOLLOM: Did you ask the question on any 21 of those pages and have any notes on them? 22 THE WITNESS: (Paolillo) No, I do not. 23 JUDGE SMITH: Mr. Brock? 24 MR. BROCK: Your Honor, I understood -- 25 JUDGE SMITH: I thought he -- do you have
,73 ,
Heritage Reporting Corporation ('~') (202) 628-4888 ,
1 I MANGAN, PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19476 (~3 1 questions on recross? 2 MS. CHAN: I think in light of the results of the ] 3 discussion we have just had about what questions they may or 4 may not have had on their list, I might need either off the J 5 record a few minutes to confer with witnesses and figure out 6 which companias had those questions and see if it is 7 reflected in their responses. Because I can't really cross
, 8 without knowing that.
9 Because there were five out of eight in Mr. 1 i 10 Paolillo's; right? l 11 THE WITNESS: (Paolillo) That's correct. 12 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 13 LI MS. CHAN: h)\j 14 Q And, Ms. Mangan, you said in four out of how many 15 .you had the questions? 16 A (Mangan) In three out of I believe 10.
.. 17 Q And on the ones where you have --
18 JUDGE SMITH: Well, first before you to into this, 19 just bear in mind that in general she testified that she 20 didn't ask everybody every question and sometimes she asked 21 questions that were not on any form. 22 MS. CHAN: I just wanted to find out on the ones 23 where she had the page about contamination. l l 24 BY MS. CHAN- ! 25 Q Did you ask those questions or is there anything l Beritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 1 __ _ _ _ _ _ _ - - - __ _ _ _ _ _ _ - _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ - _ _ _ _ __ a
cr- , l} MANGAN, PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19477 fN 1 on those forms?
\
L d '] 2 A (Mangan) On Hudson Bus Lines, on that page, i ! 3 asked one question on that page. l 4 Q Could I ask you which question that would be? 5 A (Mangan) It's the third question.
Could you read the question, please?
6 Q 7 A (Mangan) "Do your drivers specifically understand
, 8 that they may be asked to drive into an airborne plume of 9 dangerous radiation coming from the Seabrook plant or into
-10 areas contaminated with dangerous radiation after the plume 11 has passed."
11 Q And their response? 13 A (Mangan) He's not sure what his understanding
,m
.(
14 was. (
- 15 Q. Did you explore that response at all?
16 A (Mangan) No , I did not.
, 17 Q I would like to draw your attention to your 18 written testimony at page 23 and your interview with the Dee 19 Bus Company that you and Brian Taylor interviewed, I 20 believe, Mr. George Dee?
21 A (Mangan) Yes. l 22 Q And in the middle of that first paragraph you !
)
23 state: "He indicated this his school contracts have a 24 priority. The school children would have to be brought home 25 before reporting to Seabrook." l Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
MANGAN, PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19478
' P"' ,
.1 Is it your understanding based on your interview k~
- 2 that the school buses would be delayed due to their regular 3 scheduling?
4 A (Mangan) Yes, that is my understanding. 5 Q Did any of the suppliers make specific statements 6 saying that their vehicles, whether ambulances or buses, 7 would not be made available later after their routes were i 8 completed? 9 A (Mangan) Yes. 10 Some of the ambulance companies said that some of 11 .the vehicles could not leave a town if it was assigned to 12 the town for emergency services. 13 Q You mean under contract they could not leave their 14 town? 15 A (Mangan) The town that they were assigned to. 16 Yes.
, 17 Q Early in your testimony today you made a reference 18 to times that school buses would not be available. And I 19 just want to see if you meant to say this.
20 You said that while the children were in school 1 21 the buses might not be available. Did you just want to 22 limit it to when they're being picked up in the morning and 23 when they're being dropped off in the afternoon; was that an j 24 error in your testimony? 25 A (Mangan) No. t Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
MANGAN, PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19479
-f g 1 I didn't want to limit it to that time. It also -
+O 2 - my understanding includes that if the emergency occurred 3 at 12:00 they couldn't just go up there for an indefinite J 4 period of time. I don't know what would happen if the 5 schools would close and they could transport the children 6 home first or I don't know exactly.
7 I understood it that they couldn't leave the
, 8 general area until some measures had been taken to get the 9 school children home.
10 0 I see. 11 On redirect you were questioned about your meeting 12 with the McGregor-Smith Bus Company and in March of ' 88 13 mentioned that Steven Gadd had told you that he had been 14 contacted by members of the town he provided services to. (} 15 Do you recall that testimony? 16 A (Mangan) Yes, I do.
, 17 Q You had a later interview with Mr. Gadd. Did he 18 at that time mention or did you ask him whether or not he 19 had received any additional calls or contacts?
20 A (Mangan) I never had the later interview with Mr. 21 Gadd. 22 Q Oh, I see. 23 Mr. Paolillo, you had an interview later in time 24 with Mr. Gadd? 25 A (Paolillo) That's correct. Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 i i
i 19480 I (~X 1 Q Did you mention or did he mention that he had (
)
2 received any phone calls regarding his participation in 3 Seabrook emergency planning? 4 A (Paolillo) No, he did not mention that. 5 Q Did you try to refresh his memory that he had l 6 mentioned earlier in March of ' 88 that he had received any 7 contacts? Did you follow up on that? i 8 A (Paolillo) No, I did not. 9 Q So if he had received phone calls you would not 10 have known because you didn't ask? 11 A (Paolillo) Exactly. 12 MS. CHAN: The Staff has no further questions at 13 this time. 14 Thank you. [~}- (_ 15 JUDGE SMITH: Mr. Brock? 16 MR. BROCK: Just a couple of questions.
... 17 JUDGE SMITH: Wait just a minute, Mr. Brock.
18 EXAMINATION BY JUDGE McCOLLOM 19 JUDGE McCOLLOM: I'm at a disadvantage because I 20 was not here during your earlier testimony but I would like 21 to know just a little bit more about how you went about the 22 interview. 23 In particular, did any of your interviewees ever 24 actually see the document or put any marks on the document? 25 THE WITNESS: (Mangan) No, they did not. I i ("'y Heritage Reporting Corporation I ( j/ l (202) 628-4888 l _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ - 1
l MANGAN, PAOLILLO - REDIRECT 19481 (
/~x 1 THE WITNESS: (Paolillo) No , they did not.
( ) . I'~~' 2 JUDGE McCOLLOM: And I think, Mr. Paolillo, did 3 you respond as to whether this page, the one that has the l 4 dangerous radiation -- dangerous contamination on it, did 5 you ask that question of anybody? 6 You said you had several? Six? 7 THF. WITNESS: (Paolillo) Five.
. 8 JUDGE McCOLLOM: Five. You had five which had 9 that page in it. But did you ask the question of anybody?
10 THE WITNESS: (Paclillo) No , I did not. 11 JUDGE McCOLLOM: Thank you. 12 EXAMINATION BY JUDGE COLE I 13 JUDGE COLE: Ms. Mangan and Mr. Paolillo, did you (,~~i 14 use a tape recorder in any of these interviews? w I 15 THE WITNESS: (Mangan) No , we did not. 16 JUDGE COLE: Is that standard for your
. 17 investigations or would you normally use a tape recorder in 18 investigations?
19 THE WITNESS: (Mangan) No , I never use a tape 20 recorder. 21 JUDGE COLE: Thank you. 22 JUDGE SMITH: Mr. Brock? 23 FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION 24 BY MR. BROCK: Ms. Mangan, with respect to the Big W Bus Company 25 Q
,a
( ) Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
b MANGAN, PAOLILLO - REDIRECT 19482-1 you previously testified, as I understand, that they I
- (~'N
\w,] ' j
-a 2 declined to be interviewed; is that correct? I 3 A (Mangan) Yes, it is.
4 Q When you were told that, was there'any indication 5 given to-you that Big W would be available for an interview at another time or under other circumstances? l 6 7 A (Mangan) No, there was not.
, .8 Q Could you characterize for the Board what was the 9 attitude of the Big W representative with whom you spoke 10 when you requested the interview?
11 MR. LEWALD: Objection. 12 JUDGE SMITH: I'm sorry, would you give me that 13 again? () 14 15 MR. BROCK: Yes, Your Honor. The question I believe in substance was, would you 16 characterize for the Board the attitude of the Big W
, 17 representative with whom you spoke and requested an 18 interview when they declined to be interviewed?
19 JUDGE SMITH: And you object to that. 20 MR. LEWALD: I objected to the characterization of 21 whatever she might think his attitude might be from a phone 22 call. 23 JUDGE SMITH: Well, as it was expressed in words. 24 MR. LEWALD: If it was. 25 JUDGE SMITH: What did he say? What were his Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 i mmm________._.___ _ __
i 1 I MANGAN, PAOLILLO - REDIRECT 19483 1 r ~'N 1 words? f Y_) 2 THE WITNESS: (Mangan) This interview was in 3 person and it was p;metically -- he just slammed the door, 4 basically, when he told me to contact Ropes and Gray. He 5 stopped the conversation and shut the door, so I left. 6 JUDGE SMITH: He was abrupt? 7 THE WITNESS: (Mangan) Yes. i 8 BY MR. BROCK: 9 Q With reference to t'e Holmes Bus Company, was that 10 interview in person or by phone? 11 A (Mangan) By phone. 12 Q Am I correct that the Holmes Bus Company 13 representative with whom you spoke declined to be Ih 14 interviewed? () 15 A (Mangan) Yes, they did. 16 Q Did they or did that representative give you any . 17 indication that Holmes Bus Company would be available at j 18 another time or under other circumstances to be interviewed? 19 A (Mangan) No , they did not. 20 MR. LEMALD: Objection. You can't have what they 21 said or that somebody said. We're not dealing with I 22 impressions of the witness. 23 JUDGE SMITH: Well, just generally propose your 24 questions that way and if you want to ask specifically about 25 tone of voice or something, do that. But separate the two. 'rx () Heritage Reporting (202) 628-4888 Corporation
I i MANGAN, PAOLILLO - REDIRECT 19484
<~N 1 MR. BROCK: I'm content with the responses as they )
- 2 stand, Your Honor, unless the Board would --
l 3 JUDGE SMITH: No. I thought we had -- all right. 4 BY MR. BROCK: i 5 Q Ms. Mangan, in the testimony as conformed to the
6 Board order and as has been admitted into evidence there is.
7 reference on various occasions to an expression of belief by
, 8 you and by Mr. Paolillo.
9 Can you state, what is your -- when you say in the 10 -testimony that you believe something to be true, what do you ; 11 mean by that? 12 A (Mangan) I believe something to be true based on 13 the facts that were told to me. ( 14 Q. By the?
.C 15 A (Mangan) By the company representatives.
16 Q Mr. Paolillo, is that yeur understanding or do you 17 hrave a different understanding? 18 A (Paolillo) No. It's the same understanding. 19 MR. BROCK: I have nothing further, Your Honor. 20 JUDGE SMITH: Anything further? 21 MS. CHAN: The Staff has a couple of questions. 22 MR. LEWALD: I just have one if we' re going in 23 order. 24 25 Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
-G MANGAN,-PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19485 L
h ,) 1 FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION ,~q
.. 2 BY MR. LEWALD:
3 Q When you were attempting to interview a bus or an 4- " ambulance company and you were advised to call Ropes and l'
- 5. Gray or talk to Ropes and Gray,Edid you ever do that --
6 follow up and call Ropes and Gray? 7 A (Mangan) No, I did not.
- , 8 MR. LEMALD: I have.nothing further.
9 JUDGE SMITH: Ms. Chan.
. 10 FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION 11 BY MS. CHAN:
12 Q Earlier on my cross just a moment ago you 13 mentioned that you only had notes about asking the question () 14 15 about contaminated areas to Hudson; is that correct? A (Mangan) That specific question. 16 Q Yes. 17 A (Mangan) Yes.
. 18 Q If you could refer to your testimony at page 11.
19 It begins on page 11, the Stavis Ambulance Service in 20 Brookline, Massachusetts. 21 A (Mangan) Yes. 22 Q And on page 11 in the middle of the page it says 23 that -- you testify that, "It is his understanding that the 24 EMTs would decide for themselves at the time of the incident 25 whether or not they wish to respond or enter a contaminated Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
. - - - - - - _ - - - - - _ - - ---------- --_------------- -_ .o
w --- . - - . i MANGAN, PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19486
,r"3 1 area." ]
+ 1 l' 2'~ _2 Was that in response to a question from you about {
3 whether or not they would enter a contaminated area? 4 A (Mangan) Yes, it was. 5 JUDGE SMITH: Ms. Chan, are you aware that
ame of 6 essentially the same question is asked twice in 7 these forms?
, 8 MS. CHAN: Yes, I am. I just wanted to check on 9 these because she said she only had notes on Hudson that she 10 specifically asked the question. And the Staff in its cross 11 plan wanted to find out if it was the questions that brought 12 forth the answers, if it was the questions themselves that 13 suggested that the buses would have to go into contaminated
/ i 14 areas.
'w.)
15 JUDGE SMITH: But your reference to the fourth 16 page is confusing.
, 17 Well, if I heard you correctly, you began your 18 questioning by a reference to the page in question.
19 MS. CHAN: Well, I will change the premise 20 at this point and just ask general questions about 21 contamination. 22 BY MS. CHAN: 23 Q On page 12 of your testimony in discussion with 24 Mr. Shuman of Front Line Ambulance Service. 25 // \ (e'~'m) Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 5
MANGAN, PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19487
/~N 1 His response on the bottom of the page: "Mr.
. 2 Shuman firmly stated that it is not his understanding with 3 Seabrook owners that he would send his ambulance, his vans, 4 and drivers into a contaminated atea."
5 Was that in response to a specific question from 6 you or did he volunteer that? 7 A (Mangan) That was in response to two specific
, 8 questions from me.
9 Q Do you recall what those specific questions were? 10 A (Mangan) Yes. 11 They're questions on the form. l 12 O Which questions? 13 A (Mangan) On page three, the first question where () v 14 15 it says: "Were there any cor.ditions you imposed on the use of your buses and drivers?" In this case it would be 16 ambulance. 17 Q I just want to confirm that earlier in your 18 testimony in response to questions from Mr. Lewald you 19 testified that you were not aware that the training for 20 ambulance drivers included the handling of contaminated 21 persons; is that correct? 22 A (Mangan) That's correct. 23 Q Beginning on page 20 of your testimony and 24 continuing on to page 21 you have a summary of ambulance 25 company investigation. I O) (s Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 a
,)
i f MANGAN, PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19488 v - 1 And you ' state on top of page 2::. : "We believe that [i
.: 2- as many_as 33 of the ambulances and 16 of the wheelchair-vans cannot be counted on to drive into contaminated areas."
3 4 Is this based on: questions that you posed or is 5 this your opinion based on some representative proportion of~
.6 the ones that:you asked the question of?
7 A (Mangan) It's based on questions that I asked.
, 8 Q So-this is an actual count of the vehicles based 9- on.the specific question as to whether or not'each company 10L would drive into a contaminated area?
11 A (Mangan) Yes, it is. 12 Q On the bottom of page 23 in an interview with the 13 Dee Bus Company you express an opinion on the bottom of the 14 page, both you and Mr. Paolillo that: "It appears that Dee 15 is committed to provide 21 buses, bt; we believe that these 16 buses and drivers will not travel into contaminated areas." s,- 17 Is that in response to a question that you asked 18 or:just because~I believe in your '89 interview Mr. Dee l 19 declined any additional - declined to respond to any 20 additional questions? 21 What is the basis -- shouls; I rephrase that for 22 you? 23 A (Mangan) No. I'm just looking. 24 I based that on my March of ' 88 interview with Mr. 25 Dee when I asked two different questions. One being: "Do l; Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
i .. MANGAN, PAOLILLO - RECROSS 19488 1 And you state on top of page 21: "We believe that 4 2 as many as 33 of the ambulances and 16 of the wheelchair 3 vans-cannot be counted on to drive into contaminated areas." 1 1 4 Is this based on questions that you posed or is ) i 5 this your opinion based on some representative proportion of 6' the ones that you asked the question of? 7 A (Mangan) It's based on questions that I asked.
,. 8 Q So this is an actual count of the vehicles based 9 on the specific question as to whether or not each company 10 would drive into a contaminated area?
11 A (Mangan) Yes, it is. 12 Q On the bottom of page 23 in an interview with the 13 Dee Bus Company you express an opinion on the bottom of the 14 page, both you and Mr. Paolillo that: "It appears that Dee ( 15 is committed to provide 21 buses, but we believe that these 16 buses and drivers will not travel into contaminated areas." 17 Is that in response to a question that you asked 18 or just because I believe in your '89 interview Mr. Dee 19 declined any additional -- declined to respond to any 20 additional questions? 21 What is the basis -- should I rephrase that for 22 you? 23 A (Mangan) No. I'm just looking. 24 I based that on my March of ' 88 interview with Mr. l*
^
25 Dee when I asked two different questions. One being: "Do Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
l 19489 l-1 1 your drivers understand that they may be sent into areas {~' 2 contaminated with radiation?" l 3 And Mr. Dee said, he did not know. 4 And the question stating: "Did you understand 5 clearly.that if an accident occurs at the Seabrook Station 6 Nuclear Reaction you have agreed to send your buses and 7 drivers into areas which may be contaminated with
, 8 radiation?"
9 And Mr. Dee responded that he was told by Seabrook 10 that it would be very unlikely that they would have to go 11 into a contaminated area because there would be enough 12 warning ahead of time to evacuate everyone. i' 13 Q But he didn't specifically say that his buses
'I 14 would not travel into a contaminated area. You just D) 15 inferred this from those responses that you have read?
16 A (Mangan) Yes, it is.
. 17 Q Thank you.
18 MS. CHAN: No further questions at this time. 19 , JUDGE SMITH: Anything further? 20 MR. BROCK: No. 21 JUDGE SMITH: You're excused. Thank you. 22 (The witnesses were excused. ) 23 MR. DIGNAN: Your Honor, I am prepared to advise 24 the Board and the parties -- I don't think this will be any 25 great surprise to anybody -- that the Applicants will not be Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
, r H I 19490 l
f . f'N( 1 offering the Applicants' Rebuttal No. 8. 3 N,,) l l 2 There is one technical matter I wish to take care 1 3 of with respect'to that. There are two or three references, 4 and.I apologize for not having the page numbers with me but 5 I left the note back in my office. There are two or three 6 references in Applicants' Rebuttal No. 9 to Applicants' 7 Rebuttal 8. The short and simple answer -- and I so state i 8 for the Applicant and to be bound by the record -- those l7 9 references can simply be removed from Rebuttal No. 9 which 10 has been cross-examined and not to be used as evidence by us 11 or by anyone else. Anyone who wants to use it as evidence 12 other than us, they can. But we will not be. 13 I have checked the references. They were simple ( 14 cross references sort of coming into place where it was
)
15 obv'.ously the feeling of the authors of the testimony, there 16 might be a concern why aren't we getting into this and they
. 17 were just references. They aren't substantive utilizations 18 of 8.
19 So with that clarification and understanding the 20 Applicants will not be offering Applicants' Rebuttal No. 8. 21 MR. BROCK: Your Honor, based upon that 22 representation by Mr. Dignan, at this time we would move to 23 strike the transportation agreement identified as MOERP-12 24 beginning at page 67 of Applicants' No. 41 which is with the 25 Marathon Line. () Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
19491 i 1 That'is based upon what we think is undisputed :)
; t( s - 1
- testimony that Marathon is no longer in business. And also, I 2'
L-3 based upon the fact of Applicants' prefiled testimony, i 4 Applicants' Rebuttal Testimony No. 8 dated April 13, 1989 at' i 5 .page 13 which identifies transportation resource summary .; 6 listing various bus companies upon which Applicant relied, 7 Marathon.does not appear on the list. L 8 Based on that admission, Your. Honor, and the 9 ' testimony of Ms. Mangan, we move that the transportation 10 agreement-No. 12 be stricken. 11 12 ( 13 [~5 14 15 16.
. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 u-_-_________________ - _ - - - - - - - . - . - - - - - - . - - - - - - _ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - . - -
1:
- , 19492 yh . 'l MR. DIGNAN: I have no-objection to that, Your 2 Honor.-
3 ' JUDGE SMITH: So you will mark your exhibit then 4 that you give to the reporter to conform. 5 MR. DIGNAN: Well, it's already in eviden;e. 6 ' JUDGE SMITH: Well, not-the exhibits -- only the 7 exhibit.
,. 8 MR. DIGNAN: Yes, 41.
9 JUDGE SMITH: Well, where is that? Where is that 10 exhibit physically? 11 MR. DIGNAN: It was prefiled. 12 JUDGE SMITH: Off the record. 13' (Discussion.off the record.) h
\/
14 MR. BROCK: Your Honor, I have a point to raise 15 with respect to Applicants' 41. And at this time we would 16 move that what is identified as MOERP-7 with McGregor-Smith
,, 17 the' letter of agreement dated August 18, 1987, be stricken 19 onLgrounds'that we believe the testimony and the evidence is 19 undisputed by Ms. Mangan that as of March 1988, that 20 McGregor-Smith was no longer participating and was no longer 21' willing to provide transportation resources for Seabrook.
22 I would also point out that Mr. Lewald, on the 23 record at transcript 19224, represented, "He did not want to i 24 sign a contract in this matter." And I think, while not 25 dispositive, that is further evidence that McGregor-Smith is l 5 Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
Y i 19493
' - 1 'not-participating, and we therefore move to strike the
- N-L ' 2 agreement, so-called.
3 MR. DIGNAN: I won't agree to that, Your Honor. 4 That may give him an argument that you should not give 5 weight to the agreement, although I don't think it does. 6 And-I hardly think that the testimony that has been elicited 7 in this matter establishes what Mr. Brock thinks it does.
, 8 But in any event, it's a question of weight and 9 argument. It's not a question of admissibility.
10 JUDGE SMITH: What are we talking about here now? 11 We're talking about -- 12 MR. BROCK: It's the -- 13 JUDGE SMITH: Where is the page number? 14 MR. BROCK: Page 31, Your Honor. ( ). 15 JUDGE SMITH: Where is the testimony? 16 MR.. BROCK: That's transcript 19224.
. 17 JUDGE SMITH: No, no. Where is the testimony for 18 your panel? What page is it discussed?
19 MR. BROCK: I believe that is at 24, Your Honor. 20 JUDGE SMITH: Could we begin with -- 21 MR. DIGNAN: This, incidently, Your Honor, is the 22 particular bus company that you will recall -- 23 JUDCE SMITH: I un'arstand. 24 MR. DIGNAN: -- that was discussed in connection 25 with the sanctions.
) Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
19494 f'~x., 1 JUDGE SMITH: Right. So surviving is the first
\ ) i
2 paragraph on page 24. The rest of that reference to 3 McGregor-Smith is out, and the testimony that is not 4 rebutted by any testimony on Applicants' Rebuttal Testimony 5 8 is the statement that Mr. Gadd said that Seabrook's owners had subsequently tendered a contract asking him to commit to 6
7 send this number of buses, and he decided not to sign it or
, 8 make this commitment.
9 And then where is the contract? 10 (Document proffered to the Board.) 11 JUDGE SMITH: We don't have a contract on it. We 12 only have a letter of agreement. 13 MR. DIGNAN: That's correct. [ ) 14 JUDGE SMITH: So you are willing to stand on the
'm J 15 record as it is.
16 MR. DIGNAN: I am.
. 17 JUDGE SMITH: And you are asking for a ruling 18 right off the bench as to what finding we should make.
19 What would we strike? We would strike the letter 20 of agreement. That's still in there. The question is -- 21 MR. DIGNAN: All that would be establishes is 22 that -- they didn't establish he wasn't standing by the 23 letter of agreement. What they established was that he had 24 said that he did not want to sign a contract. 25 JUDGE SMITH: Well, I don't even know if they Ci
, Heritage Reporting Corporation
/
~
(202) 628-4888
1 L 19495 1 established that much. 1
2 MR. DIGNAN: Well, I don't either, but assuming 3 that-what's --
4 MR. BROCK: Your Honor, I believe the testimony 5 was -- , 6 MR. DIGNAN: And it comes down to, as I said -- 7 MR. BROCK: The testimony was when I asked for
, 8 clarification of what Ms. Mangan meant by paragraph one on 9 page 24 was that her understanding was McGregor-Smith was 10 not participating. That evidence is unrebutted and that is 11 the last evidence on the point. That is a subsequent 12 evidence to this letter of agreement, so-called, at page 31 l- 13 which is dated August 18, 1987.
14 As the Board has pointed out, it is different from ( 15 every other transportation agreement which Applicants have 16 offered. And we think, given the unrebutted evidence, it 17 should be stricken. 18 MR. DIGNAN: Well, in the first place, it is 19 rebutted because Mr. Donovan testified he checked them all 20 out and they all checked out. So you will have to decide -- 21 JUDGE SMITH: We will have to wait until we see 22 the proposed findings. 23 MR. DIGNAN: That's the point, Your Honor. What 24 you are getting is an argument on evidence best made at the 25 ,close of a case. This doesn't go to admissibility. () Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 ___ _-_ - __ -_ _ _ a
1-l + i 19496 1 JUDGE SMITH: Nobody is being surprised. We will f(~i lt 2 just wait until we see what the various arguments are on it. 3 Are we ready for Mr. Daines? 3 4 Whereupon,' 5 GUY DAINES. l' Ei having been first duly sworn, was called as a witness herein l 7 and was examined and testified as follows:
$. 8 MS. GREER: Your Honor, before we proceed with the
;9 testimony, I understand that the Applicants have filed a 10 motion in limine with respect to Mr. Daines testimony; is i s11 that correct?
1' L 12 MS. SELLECK: That's correct. 13 MR. DIGNAN: That's correct. () 14 l15 MS. GREER: Okay. based upon the February 7th stipulation. If I may, I believe that is 16 Do you happen to have a copy of that stipulation?
.~ 17 MS. SELLECK: Yes, I do.
18 MS. GREER: Can I borrow that from you for one 19 second? 20 (Document proffered to counsel.) 21 MS, GREER: I'm not sure whether the Board has had 22 a chance to -- 23 JUDGE SMITH: Well, do you agree or not? 24 You have been sitting here all morning. You could
]
25 have examined that stipulation and you could have been in a Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 l 1 l _ _ _ 1
l 19497
,/'g 1 position to agree or not to agree with the motion.
.V.
i 2 MS. GREER: I'm not in a position to agree with 3 the motion at this point. 4 JUDGE SMITH: You disagree with it. 5 MS. GREER: And I will tell you why. 6 I was not the person actually who negotiated this 7 stipulation in connection with JI-40. At the same time, my
., 8 understanding is that JI-40 concerns notification to the 9 hearing impaired who were on the registered list. If you 10 will refer to the line in Mr. Daines' testimony that the 11 Applicants are seeking to strike, it is the availability of 12 a TDD to receive phone calls or contacts from unregistered 13 persons.
( 14 I don't believe that, as the stipulation dated (.)/ 15 February 7th was filed, it made any reference to or any 16 connection to that open 800 number with the respect to the 17 hearing impaired and the availability of a TDD in that 18 instance. 19 If however negotiated that stipulation can shed 20 any clarification on the plain language of it, I'll be happy 21 to a clarification from the Applicants. 22 MR. DIGNAN: Well, the first question is this. Is 23 this testimony offered under JI-40, or isn't it? 24 MS. GREER: It is not offered under JI-40. MR. DIGNAN: 25 All right. b q ,/ Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
N 19498 E/~N - 1 JUDGE SMITH: Isn't this very similar to previous
)
. 2 confrontation between counsel?
3 MS. GREER: .We merely have legal discussions. We 4 don't have confrontations, Your Honor. 5 JUDGE SMITH: Oh, all right. 6 MR. DIGNAN: I have confrontations. 7 JUDGE SMITH: Well, the stipulation seems to be
', 8 rather broad. Let's read the stipulation.
9 It's JI Contention 40. " Applicants have agreed to 10 provide TDDs to all deaf and nearly deaf individuals in 11 Massachusetts EPZ who do not already have one as suggested 12 by'JI Contention 40. In light of that agreement, 13 Massachusetts Attorney General withdraws JI Contention 40." 14 Now this is -- ( 15 MS. GREER: If you will make reference to JI-40, 16 that contention reads as follows: "The SPMC does not 17 contain an appropriate or timely alert and notification 18 system for residents who have special notification needs." 19 The portion of Mr. Daines' testimony they are p 20 seeking to strike is the availability of a TDD system to 21 receive call-ins from unregistered people. It has nothing 22 to do with notification, which is JI-40. l 23 MR. DIGNAN: Your Honor, could you look at the 1 24 piece that we are trying to strike? 25 The statement, as I read it, is, "There is also no Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
i 19499 j i (~N 1 evidence of any TDD for the hearing impaired as part of the i / -;
. 2 communication system that supports the emergency operation J 4
3 center." 4 That's the statement we want stricken on the basis 5 of the stipulation. 6 MS. GREER: Yes, but if you read it in connection 7 with the general statement, this is at page 10 of Mr.
, 8 Daines' testimony.
9 JUDGE SMITH: All right. This supports the 10 emergency operation center. Is that the nuance that you 11 are -- 12 MS. GREER: No, no. What it really is, is that -- 13 JUDGE SMITH: Mell, in the first place, we begin f^') N_s 14 with a stipulation that all deaf and nearly deaf individuals 15 in the EPZ who do not already have one'will have a TDD. 16 MS. GREER: That I believe is referring to -- my 17 understanding -- 18 JUDGE SMITH: Well, whatever it refers to, it's an 19 easily understood sentence. .; 20 MS. GREER: Yes, I understand that. But Mr. 21 Daines' testimony goes to the availability of receipt of 22 phone calls, not to the making of the phone calls, but 23 receipt of phone calls on the -- 24 JUDGE SMITH: What's a TDD? i 25 MS. GREER: A TDD is a special telephone connector ( Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 l _ _ _ _ . _ _ _________________________ __ _ __J
I l
- f. 19500 l
r'T 1 for the hearing impaired where what you do is, instead of l .
%'] 2 speaking into it, it has essentially a typewriter system
} 3 where you type into the instrument and received by a TDD. l 4 At the other end of the line there is a printout. Typically 1 5 it comes out -
JUDGE SMITH: But does a TDD also receive?
6 7 MS. GREER: It receives and sends. However, this l , 8 statement goes to the availability of the 800 number to 9 receive call-ins, to receive call-ins from unregistered l 10 persons who have TDDs in their own homes. 11 JUDGE SMITH: Who have TDDs in their home. 12 MS. GREER: Right. 13 JUDGE SMITH: I guess I don't understand. [) 14 MS. GREER: Okay.
\_/
15 JUDGE SMITH: Let's start at the very beginning. 16 MS. GREER: I'm sorry? Should I start again? 17 JUDGE SMITH: I am comparing the statement made by 18 the witness where he says on page 10, "There is also no 19 evidence of any TDD for the hearing impaired as a part of 20 that communications system that supports the emergency 21 operation center." 22 MS. GREER: Right. If you -- 23 JUDGE SMITH: But I know that every single 24 hearing-impaired person in the EPZ, who does not have a TDD, 25 is going to get one. I know that.
/
(O ,/ Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
4 19501 r 1 So I know then that everybody in the EPZ, a (~')/ 2 hearing-impaired person, has a TDD. 3 MS. GREER: That's right. 4 JUDGE SMITH: Everybody has one. 5 MS. GREER: Everybody has one.
6 JUDGE SMITH: It's stipulated.
7 MS. GREER: That they know about.
-, 8 JUDGE SMITH: And they can receive and send on it.
9 MS. GREER: Right. 10 JUDGE SMITH: All right. 11 MS. GREER: However, the 800 number cannot receive 12 that we know about. 13 JUDGE SMITH: Where does he say the 800 number? 14 MS. GREER: Okay, if you look at the question ( 15 immediately above, it says, " Question. In your view the 16 SPMC and the procedures and resources under that plan, have
, 17 you see any indication that a similar allocation has been 18 made to the unregistered needs population?"
19 "The plan is oriented to the evacuation of special 20 needs facilities and persons on the regist ered list. There 1 21 is a reference to a phone number to call for information and 22 assistance. There does not appear to be any provision for 23 providing such assistance." 24 Then when you go down, the next question is, "In 25 the reference you have mentioned or in any other provision r
' Corporation Heritage Reporting
( (202) 628-4888 ___-___-____a
).
19502 1 1 of the plan, is there any indication as to how many phone 2 . calls that one number can handle and respond to?" 3 "There is not." 4 And then he goes on to say, "There is also no 5 evidence of any TDD for the hearing impaired as part of that 6 communication system." 7 This is the ability to receive calls from the
, 8 unregistered hearing impaired who have TDDs. That's all it 9 is. Has nothing to do with JI Contention 40.
10 JUDGE SMITH: So far not one member of the Board 11 understands what you are saying. We don't understand it. 12 JUDGE MCCOLLOM: We don't all understand it the 13 same way. () 14 15 MS. GREER: JUDGE SMITH: Okay. No two of us understand it the same. 16 (Laughter.)
- i. 17 MS. SELLECK: If I might inquire, Your Honor. If 18 it's not under JI-40, I would like to know what contention 19 it is being offered under.
20 JUDGE SMITH: All right, let's reserve that. 21 Explain to me again -- let's take a person that 22 you think is at risk because of this shortfall. 23 MS. GREER: Okay. 24 JUDGE SMITH: And what happens to this person? 25 MS. GREER: Okay. Beritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
l : 19503 F Y~4 . 1. JUDGE SMITH: The person is at home. MS. GREER: Just -- 4- 2' 3 JUDGE SMITH: Is the person at home? 4 MS. GREER: The person's at home. A hearing-5 impaired person at home who'is not on the registered list of
: impaired that.New Hampshire Yankee has. You are aware that 6-7' New Hampshire Yankee has a list to call down to impaired
[i; L8 people who reside at home in the event of an emergency. 9 JUDGE SMITH: All right. 10 MS.
- GREER: Okay. Mr. Daines' testimony is 11 directed, in part at least, to having no resources available 12 for people who are impaired, reside at home and who are not 13 on that list. His testimony, in part, states that thero 1/. ' should be an pool of-resources available_to respond to their 15 needs and they should be set aside in advance because you 16 know that in fact there will be call-ins on the spot.
, 17 The plan has a provision in it to have an 800 18 number to respond to people in need at the time of the 19 emergency who need' assistance in some way. The only thing 20 that sentence says is that the plan does not appear to have 21 any provision for a hearing-impaired person who calls in, 22 because there is no way of receiving that.
23 JUDGE SMITH: Isn't that what it says? It says, 24 "There is also no evidence of any TDD". .4 MS. GREER: 25 You have to read it in context with Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
l 19504 l (~~; 1 the question above, Your Honor.
' l
)
I' # 2 MS. DOUGHTY: Your Honor, it says that there is. I 3 no evidence of any TDD for the hearing impaired as a part of 4 that communication system that supports the emergency 5 operation center. In other others, the receiving gadget 6 isn't in there. 7 JUDGE SMITH: The what?
, 8 MS. DOUGHTY: The gadget that would receive the 9 calls isn't at the EOC is what the point of the sentence is.
10 JUDGE SMITH: On that 800 number. 11 MS. GREER: That's it. Very simple. 12 JUDGE SMITH: So they can't send -- 13 MR. DIGNAN: She does it better than you. [N_/ } 14 MS. SELLECK: Your Honor, if I might clear up the l 15 matter. 16 Originally we had route guides which went to the
, 17 homes of the hearing impaired. And in our stipulation with 18 the Mass AG, we have agreed to provide a TDD for every 19 hearing-impaired person with whom we are aware in the EPZ.
20 As part of that effort, we will be publishing a 21 TDD number along with the 800 number in future annual 22 distributions of the public information materials. 23 JUDGE SMITH: Wait a minute. 24 (The Board confers.) 25 i,f )j Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 1
19505
)
(~N 1 JUDGE SMITH: Is the issue now that even if j i ) U 2 everybody has lots of TDDs in their house, that there is 3 nobody at the number that they would call with a TDD to l
\
4 receive such communications. That's the point she is making 5 now.
)
6 MS. SELLECK: Oh, there is a TDD, Your Honor. 7 JUDGE SMITH: She said. But that is what you're
, 8 saying is the case?
9 MS. GREER: That was my point. 10 If Ms. 8 11eck is now representing that the 11 Applicants are making a commitment to put in a TDD that will 12 apparently take care of the fact that there is no TDD 13 mentioned. ( 14 But I would point out that at the time that this
)
15 testimony was prepared and filed that information was not 16 available to Mr. Daines.
. 17 JUDGE SMITH: What do you want? Do you want TDDs?
18 Do you want a TDD capacity at the other end? 19 MS. GREER: And an adequate number in staffing to 20 respond to that. 21 Perhaps Mr. Daines is really the person who should 22 be addressing this issue. This is his testimony. 23 JUDGE SMITH: Let's go through with Ms. Selleck's 24 other point. What contention are we talking about? 25 MS. SELLECK: Well, that's what I would like to (q,/ Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 1 j
19506 1 know. I thought JI-40 was the hearing-impaired contention, l
\
r"') . i 2 and that has been negotiated away. i 3 Whether the person who did the nego':iations was as 4 careful as Ms. Greer, I don't know. But the contention, as 5 I understand it, has been withdrawn. 6 MS. GREER: JI-40 is gone. This goes to 49. 7 JUDGE SMITH: What's 497
, 8 MS. GREER: 49 is assisting the resident special 9 need population.
10 MS. SELLECK: This is special needs -- a need for 11 transportation? 12 (Pause to locate document. ) 13 JUDGE SMITH: Let's read JI-40 into the record. s ( 14 The contention is: "The SPMC does not contain an appropriate J 15 or timely alert notification system for residents who have 16 special notification needs."
. 17 Now that issue is out.
18 MS. GREER: That issue is out. 19 JUDGE SMITH: That issue is out. 20 But you argue that it is still in. The hearing-l 21 impaired special notification needs, right, is still in 22 because it is a part of a larger contention? 23 MS. GREER: No. I'm not talking about 1 24 notification of the hearing-impaired. I'm talking about the 25 ability for the hearing-impaired who are not the list to .~^g / 1 ( ,/ Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 l
19507 r~N l' communicate to New Hampshire Yankee ORO and ask for-
*-- 2 assistance if they are not on the list.
3 JUDGE SMITH: They have special notification 4 needs, right? 5 MS. GREER: It's not a question of notification. l 6 They cannot call in and ask for assistance on the spot. 7 Let me see if I can try this. There are two -- we
, 8 maintain that there are people who are resident special 9 needs people who are on the list. We put in a contention A0 saying that, first of all, they have not got everybody on 11 that list who is in fact home-bound and has a special need.
12 They say for those people who are home-bound and 13 have a special need, that will need assistance in the event 14 of an emergency, we have a provision which is an 800 number ( 15 to receive communications from them on the spot, and then 16 we'll send out people to take care of them, transportation
, 17 or whatever.
18 'The TDD sentence that they're moving to strike is 19 a point that they have no way of receiving contact from -- -h 20 at least in the plans as they now are -- from the hearing-i 21 impaired who try to communicate by TDDs. 22 MS. SELLECK: Your Honor, providing TDDs -- 23 JUDGE SMITH: Tell me what contention this is 24 again? 25 MS. GREER: 49. Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
L-
'19508 1 MS. CHAN: Which basis doen that refer to, Ms.
--gN V* 2 Greer?
3~ MS. GREER: One second. 4 (Pause) 5 MS. GREER: I think it's actually a combination 6 of -- j J 7 JUDGE SMITH: Where is the basis for that? We !
, 8 . don't have a basis?
9 MS. GREER: It's actually 48 and 49, a 10 combination. 11 MS. SELLECK: 48 and 497 l 12 MS. GREER: 48, we maintain that they have not got l 13 everybody who is in fact -- has not identified all the 14 special needs population. 15 JUDGE SMITH: Well, the problem is, I see here 16 clearly a contention that talks about people who have
. 17 special notification needs.
18 And then I see two other contentions which I don't 19 even understand they are so broad. % 20 MS. GREER: If I may clarify. 21- 48, essentially says, that they have not ( 22 identified and do not have on their list all the home-bound
.23 special needs people.
24 JUDGE SMITH: Right. 25 MS. GREER: 49 says they have not -- o l Heritage Reporting Corporation l (202) 628-4888 ] l L
19509 1 JUDGE SMITH: But don't forget, the stipulation is I 2 that they're going to have everybody whether they're on the 3 list or not, everybody is going to have a TDD phone. 4 MS. GREER: Well, presumably that appears to be a 5 little overly broad in its language and that's why I was 6 asking for clarification on that. 7 JUDGE SMITH: It doesn't need clarification, It 8 is a clear statement. 9 MS. GREER: Actually, my understanding is the fact 10 that the only people that that stipulation was meant to 11 apply to were the hearing-impaired were on the list. 12 Would you like to shed clarification on that? 13 MS. SELLECK: I would let it speak for itself. It 14 says, "All the hearing-impaired." That's what it says. 15 MS. GREER: Are you saying you're going to offer 16 TDDs to every hearing-impaired person whether they're on the 17 list or not? 18 MS. SELLECK: Well, you're fighting logic there, 19 Ms. Greer. I don't think we can offer a TDD to someone we '] 20 don't know if they exist. 21 MS. GREER: Well, you can -- 22 MS. SELLECK: Besides, this sentence I believe 23 went to the ability to receive. 24 And we would not be providing a great number of 25 TDDs at some cost without the ability to receive them. Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
19510 73 1 That's part of the system.
!)
2 MS. GREER: My understanding is that the ability 3 to receive them was not in connection with the 800 phone 4 number system. 5 MS. SELLECK: And as I explained earlier, also
.6 part of the system which was begun at the Mass AG's instance l ,
7 will be to publish a TDD number to go along with the 800
, 8 number in future annual distributions of the public 9 information calendar.
10 MS. GREER: I'm sorry, my understanding is that, 11 you know, I may be wrong about this. If this is a 12 commitment that you have now made -- l l 13 MS. SELLECK: We'll stipulate to that right now. ('%j;\ 14 MS. GREER: Then they will provide an 800 number 15 for TDDs. However, I still think it bears inquiry as to thm 16 staffing and so forth.
, 17 I'll tell you the real problem that we have here.
18 If you'll look at that part of Mr. Daines' testimony, it i 1 19 says that even if they have an 800 number it's unclear how . 20 many people they will have to answer those phones, whether i 21 it's only one phone coming in for all the SPMC or whether l I 22 in fact -- l l f 23 JUDGE SMITH: They're only asking one sentence and l 24 that one sentence says: " Patently no longer valid." 25 There is no evidence of any TDD for the hearing-l l r^x Heritage Reporting Corporation i () ' (202) 628-4888 l
19511 1 impaired. Of any TDD for the hearing-impaired. I still
. (N . , b. 2 keep coming back to that.
3 We're faced with a stipulation that says they'll 4 all have them. 5 MS. GREER: Yes. But this is a TDD at the 800 6 number. 7 JUDGE SMITH: There is no evidence of any TDD for
., 8 the hearing-impaired.
9 MS. GREER: At the 800 number. d
; 10 JUDGE SMITH: They're going to have that.
11 Then you go slipping off, well, some of them l 12 aren't identified. And every time I try to pin you down {_ 13 what you're litigating you go off in another little theory
\ 14 of it.- And that's the problem we had the other morning.
[O 15 And then we came, well, you don't read the 16 stipulation as being all of them. And the clear language 17 is. 18 Now, I just can't follow your argument because the 19 argument never seems to stand still. '9h 20 Everybody is going to have a TDD. Everybody. 21 That's the stipulation. 22 MS. SELLECK: All the hearing-impaired. 23 JUDGE SMITH: And deaf. 24 MS. SELLECK: That's right. 4 25 JUDGE SMITH: They're all going to have it. So G(h Heritago Reporting (202) 628-4888 Corporation _.__.-_--mm_ _ _ _ _ _ _
F g. 19512
.9i s l' don't worry about'whether they're on the list or not. The i .
c 2 language is that you stipulated out are all going to have 3 it. 4 And now they're going to have the ability to 5' communicate, to have somebody at the other end to receive 6 it. i 7 MS. GREER: All right. 'The only point of ,nat one
, 8 sentence in Mr. Daines' testimony was that there is nothing 9 so far in the plan indicating that they're going to have the 10 ability to receive that for the non-registered home-bound.
11- JUDGE SMITH: Forget the non-registered home-F 12 bound; they're out of the case, aren't they? Because the 13 stipulation is that all of them will have it.
-[% 14 MS. GREER: We're talking about the EOC --
15 JUDGE SMITH: You have stipulated away the aspect 16 of the case which postulates that some will not be 17 identified. That part is out. You stipulated that part 18 out. 19 MS. GREER: Are you talking about in contention ,jg 20 with JI-407 21 JUDGE SMITH: Whatever I'm talking about. The 22 words that I'm saying, whatever they are, you have 23 stipulated out that aspect of the contention that there will 24 be a segment of the population, hearing-impaired, who do not 25 have TDDs. That part is out. You stipulated that out. It (' Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
l b 19513 (~'N1 1 is gone. I read the stipulation. t
- 2 MS. GREER: I agree that by the language of the 3 stipulation it says, "All deaf individuals in the EPZ."
4 JUDGE SMITH: In the EPZ. So that part is gone. 5 MS. GREER: And now there's a commitment that -- 6 JUDGE SMITH: Don't. Let's freeze that. Let's 7 freeze that. That is done.
, 8 MS. GREER: Right.
9 JUDGE SMITH: Don't back off that. 10 Now, everybody can send and receive. Now you are 11 now satisfied that at the EOC they're going to have the 12 capability to receive from those people on TDD. 13 MS. GREER: If that is the stipulation that is now
'# 14 being made by Ms. Selleck, the offer of stipulation that is
)
k./ 15 now being made, but that is not -- my understanding is that 1 16 had nothing to do with-the stipulation that was entered in
, 17 connection with JI-40.
18 MR. DIGNAN: Ms. Greer, was the Attorney General's 19 office really their. opinion that what we did is, we said i[ 20 we're going to give everybody a TDD but then we weren't 21 going to let it operate because we weren't going to set up a 22 line to receive it? Was that really your understanding? Or i 23 is that an understanding that you come up with today to try ; 24 to hold this piece of testimony? 25 MS. GREEh: Mr. Dignan, do you want to know what Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 l
' s y
0; . g 19514 1~ my understanding.is. D 2- MR. DIGNAN: This is appalling. 3 JUDGE SMITH: The problem is,.I know you're
=
4 capable and I have read what Mr. Daines has written in other 5 ' places in his testimony. I know he is capable of,a very JI 6. clear expression. .This is'-- if you mean all'the things 7 you're saying by it, you could.have done better. This
~,,
2,- 8' sentence'is out. 9 However, you got your commitment. I mean, I'm not 10 saying that the commitment stands. The sentence is out. 11; MS. SELLECK: She already had it. l 12: :MS . GREER: At this time-then, we would offer this 13: testimony.. () '14 15-MS. SELLECK: MS. GREER:
.Is the witness going to adopt it?
Oh. 16 DIRECT EXAMINATION
, 17 BY MS. GREER:
18 Q Mr.-Daines, in light of the discussion that has
]y}f 19 happened here,-is that your' testimony in front of you?
20 A (Daines) Here? 21 Q Yes. 22 A (Daines) Yes. 23 Q With the one modification in your testimony that 24 has been just made by order of the Board, do you adopt that 25 testimony as your testimony? Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
L, DAINES - DIhECT 19515.
; fey -1 A (Daines) Yes, I do.. ~ 's j
. s' 2 MS. GREER: We offer that? 3 JUDGE SMITH: Any objections? 4 MS. SELLECK: No objection, Your Honor. 5 JUDGE SMITH: You may examine him.
Has the reporter been supplied with a 6 MR. DIGNAN:
7 marked up copy or what at this point. It's going to be
, 8 incorporated by reference.
9 MS. GREER: We will undertake to give the reporter 10 a marked copy with that one sentence deleted. 11 JUDGE SMITH: The practice has been -- no, you 12 don't have to do that. The practice has been to le="e the l 13 sentence in but strike it through so that it can still be
/N 14 read, but it is evident that it has been deleted, b You don't have to change anything. Just do what 15 16 you apparently have done and give it to the reporter.
I
, 17 MS. GREER: Fine. !
18 (Whereupon, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts 19 Testimony of Guy Daines on the inadequacies of the SPMC as '{ 20 it pertains to special populations in the emergency planning 21 zone, was inserted.) 22 23 24 25 Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
-w
( ) UNITED STATES OF AMERICA V NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
- . ATOMIC SAFETY AUL LICENSING BOARD
;h- Before the Administrative Judges:
{
]* Ivan W. Smith, Chairman I' Dr. Richard F. Cole -
Kenneth A. McCollom
)
In the Matter of ) Docket Nos. 50-443-OL
) 50-444-OL
.j PUBLIC SERVICE COMPANY ) (Off-Site EP)
- j. OF NEW HAMPSHIRE, E,I AL. )
)
l' (Seabrook Station, Units 1 and 2) ) February 21, 1989
)
i
.i p if COMMO' WEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS TESTIMONY OF <
GUY DcINES ON THE INADEQUACIES OF.THE SPMC - AS :T PERTAINS TO SPECIAL POPULATIONS IN THE EMERGENCY PLANNING ZONE 2 p
,q /
L
+
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ - _ - - _ - _ - _ - - - - - _ _ _ _ = - _ _ - _ _ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 I v , l L i
+
Q. Please state your name, position, and business. address. (, A. . My name is Guy Daines, I am director of civil emergency
-services for Pinellas County, Florida. The address is 400 South Fort Harrison Avenue, Clearwater, Florida 34616. I g ,.
am also a directorifor Hazard Management. Group,.a 4 bonsultingfirmlocatedat2308CarrickCourt, Tallahassee, Florida.
'Q. In brief, what will your testimony be about?
'A. I will testify as an expert witness on the inadequacies of the SPMC as they pertain to the Special Needs Population in the EPZ. I will specifically address inadequacies of the SPMC as.they-are raised regarding JI Contentions 16, 48, 49, 50, and 51.
O i%-) I. will testify that I disagree with the FE A findings: of , adequacy on evaluation criteria that perta n to the Special Needs ' pulation. I will testify that the lock of ; proceduresz will. result in a . communications and resource
, ,p
' overload.and that planning ,ust b. er:,.a. .r a der with g.:
that eventuality. I will tastify that tne 'an does not. , provide for the stajfing a:.! resoc:ceu th. ;,il: Le
,y necessary to support and as>ist tt ! S peci $ f!eeds '
4d4 Population in the e'/9nt of 'n evac'Jation f:ma the , 4L , Massachusetts EP2. :( MF
~
Q.' Can'you please state br;3 fly your professional' experience and credentials.
t A. ; At;the-present time I am Director of Civil Emergency L\v/ Services for pinellas County Florida, and I have.been in that position since March,'1987. In that capacity, I am responsible for all 911 and dispatching services for'a county of approximately 830,000 people. I am responsib1'e' for the emergency management function which is a division-within my. department'and also I am responsible for all. H. emergency medical services within the county, prior to that, I was the Director of Emergency Management for..pinellas County. I was in that position from May of
+
1979 until February of 1987. In that capacity, I was responsible for all emergency planning for the county to include the preparatica, the response, and the. recovery "E D .operatians. coordin-2ted the ' county emergency response during che si king of P.he U.S. Coast Guard ship " Blackthorn" and the sbwo; Bridge "isaster. I developed all hurricanes. ! evacaatLor. p1mns and &.e implementation guides and recovery guic M hs- ?- Mong 'th those plans for the county. I e
, als d re.:pr .. fi all syitem exercise for county O' of li- siae -.n Flocis i.
.r 4 V I- was respons i.ble io t he .esponse operations durint;m - % -g; 1' .
l' du r - i cule Elena in Auv ast 1965. That included the., gg 4 l'
. evacuation of between 150 "00,000 residents in Pinellas [
County, the evacuatice of three hospitals and nirieteen
~
h'- l 1 i
nursing homes, and the sheltering of 114,000 evacuees. I
- p. :
Lk_ also coordinated the recovery effort after Hurricane Elena. .I developed and equipped a state-e of-the-art county emergency operations center. 1 Prior to my being with Pinellas County, I was in the United States Army, and while in the United States Army,.I had i several assignments that put me in an assignment with emergency planning responsibilities. During the period July 1970 to June 1973, I uvs Chief of Japan Ground Self-defense Force, the Liaison Division and Chief of Operations Division for United States Army Japan 9th Corp. I was responsible for all p!arning with the Japanese Ground n' S-
- Staff Office and the-Uniter States Embassy in Tokyo.'~ThatA-included, United St( tec mili ary support for disaster operations in-the 'into Plains (Tokyo) area. I was TM
-responsible and de 31cpr3 p'_ans for t'Te draw down of the- 44
. United States Army anitt an ' facilities in both Japan and ;,
Okinawa afte *'s v m te" cf ".". operations in u , , P; Vietnam. I "as al 9 :e-"c"" le fe- the development of the
- United Statt A :my- !apr. r ;t to :he National Joint , g
- St rat egic 0;+ ra dioc- 1 ole t. _j ph .
;J . ,Prioc to going _-to l ipan, I 3s a P'.1ns Officer in.the Plan
'i
.j Division of G3,,Heciguate.o- , United States Army 24th-Corp?
in Vietnam. I was row,cas. 10 for pl nning combat 3
- N operations for a ta:tien1 " 3. Corp. which consisted of two 1
il __._m_m__. _ _ _ -______-- -
l 4 United' States' Army divisions and one Marine division. I
.A assisted in the development of contingency plans for the i
. withdrawal.of 24th Corp. from Vietnam.
3 of 1
.e g" '
Befor'e to. going.to Vietnam, I was an inspector in the i Inspections Division of-the' Office of the Inspector General, ; United' States Army-Europe and 7th Army in Germany, and iti o was my responsibility to inspect all classified contingency plans in connection with the United States Army forces in
. Germany'as.part of their I.G. inspection. .g I am currently writing a chapter called " Disaster Planning, Training and Exercising" in a book titled Princioles and
- i. Erarlin_.af Emercerwr.J 11aags. ment. That book is being;done) m .- for the International' Cities Management Association, and is-
,, being cc.npiled through the University of Denver. P s
Q. Have you brd an opportunity to review the evaluation of the ~ SPMC made by FEMA in D. ember of 1988 as that evaluation 9ertoint.te Special Ne 1s population 7t -
- A, "e s F *e S; ac ' f - :s ; . 2 ric reviewed evaluation .,,
.r:.. :, a s .1 :. C- it ad' es foll'o,ws: . ,
Me - x ?r: er ung .c s e persons 1whose mobility may; ny
- ^
n be' i pe i red dt' ts sucu Lac . ;r 1 s institutional or: Gd;f
<ithe< c4 af l aetant . Th.. e m. m -hall include ,
. - %Yt o noti.icatie-1; suppoct,- r.d .ss .s'ance in implementing?' MG.
d ./ 'rctective men;ures wt 'o n Oropriate." M W 5# 1
+ h ae else re iewed ti, t !E.".; .'ir. ding in connection with' that
-?valu ati >n cri erion arH TE'%'s conclusion that the SPMC is adequate as it per'.ain" to the Special Needs Population.
_1_
Q. Do you agree with that finding and evaluation?
,s A.
(v) No I do not. I do not believe the the SpMC provisions for the Special Needs Population are adequate. Q. Could you please state what particular problem you see in connection.with that finding as it pertains to the Special Needs Population in the Massachusetts EPZ. A. I reviewed the Seabrook plan and particularly have looked at all those portions of it that pertain to special population requirements. In meeting that need, it appears that with the SpMC's provisions for notifying, assisti.:g, and supporting the resident Special Needs population, t HY l ORO has taken steps to compile a list of this population by mail in card. However, I think that the thing NHY ORO is overlooking, is the hesitancy of the population to self-(~' identify. This problem has become very apparent to th ne k of us who deal in evacuation planning. When you get. . involved in the special needs planning, you find that ily a ve ry small number of the people that are out the:e a ! regt. ire assistance _during an evacuation, will selt id(' Ofy 3 i actua11'r become a part of your 1 *: s t t- I l t 2 umners of this. population do not var" y- w > l e- ou to know, that they have ;mo ,7; s . i.;;. 3.. <
- i. try dif ficult to get that p ouletic:1 w an r ac v&M*
l l' . As an example, in Pinelle1 Coun'.v in l'f9-1981 i ,j w .st down in Pinellas County, how did
-ycm go about gatherint the names of persons on that list?,
n, A. There were se'-eral me) hods we used. One was that we
~
- publishad.infc.reation 'or-use during an evacuation and . 1 ,
~ . . . !
gl distributed 3L0-400,06) to nouseholds throughout the county. y n
. Addi' tic .:a' y, one 'cius nor year in utility bills we put 00 k e informetic7 w>:n a phc.e numbrer on it that allows persons toi ,
I ' call i; y a H> .c o ..o register. We also use 3 3 ' f
=A,4 newr r'g a r , re'te. ....' O ..3 vi spots-to make people aware of the i in Jr 3. s J.:ct:ation program. ,
Q .: Do -you ':se other r >" 1 t- ...~ those that you just , WW5 idencifiec to help you :> t ac u lists toosther? 4
. L. ; e*
. A .- - We. y o . t o 1 h e ne 4alth c ce wor.:ies and also use the; Florid *;
Departiant'of Health and 26abilative Services. Those. W organizations provide servi e; to the elderly and persons in their own homes who ne?d so:ce type of assistance. We go'to I _5
1 organizations such as that to try to get them, through their n(,,) programs, to see if they have persons who should be registered and placed on our list.
'Q. Are the means that you use to establish your lists in Pinellas County significantly different then those l' procedures that you have identified as being used in the Massachusetts EpZ by the New Hampshire Yankee Off-site '
Response Organization? A. Well, I think our effort is much more extensive, and I 1 think we have had a great deal of experience since we have been involved for eight to nine years in trying to identify that population. I have nct seen any evidence at efforts by NHY ORO to work with home health care agencies to see, through those programs, how many persons are out there that may need to be on.their' list. But I think the primary 73 difference is through the experience that we havr gained in (
\- ') working in this area over'the past eight to nine years.
Despit.. our efforts, we know there is s siinitic -r r = tbr ~4 L cf peotle out there who are not on our litt. Th j r; ler .
'- r'.s not just in Pinellas County.
It i. i an w3 ot - vou are dealing with the Special - m- 4.
- 2 . owe to recognize.that you at: dea _ w'-h - = 2 de n.it want to be on your' list. T*'.ay C cit are so:aeone SS
}
to k m that they may be impaired ' n me.o .y . Th m is a de cm m+rn that the list may be passed on to :;o.'aone S that mry come in and rob them, bea; thaa ep, at vaatever. O. pl ca se describe any experience that you have had and iny j
- (j
('T difficulties or problems that have come to light as a re< It 1 l
- o
L U . i' L of that experience that relates to having resident special' needs lists that do not include the full population in a [
) given geographic area. .% f:l A. During Hurricane Elena, we conducted as far as we can s
determine the. largest medical evacuation in the history of , the' count'ry with nineteen nursing homes and three hospital,s being moved. That was all done on a. pre-planned basis with
'~
every facility knowing where they were going, how many 4 ,y buses th'ey were going to get, and that worked out extremely well. We also nad our registration list for those people that were in the homes, and we attempted to go and get them. We found two things occurred. In some communities many of the e
~ 3 peopleJthat were actually registered on our list were only:
'N -' T sing us:. as a . back up. We dedicated resou$ es to go pick -
'them'up and found-they were not there. In contrast, in M '
Q
'other communities a high percentage, up to 70% plus, of the.
people on'their lists were,there and were ;teked up. The V -communities with thelhigh percentage of use were communities , that had worked with the pe ;o..a ci.. thu.r . rs in a continuous and ongo?".g.e v m 'qat tue per....s i.n their lists trusted them. s N The second thing we learneo and tho one thav. really hurt'us j r was the special neech popu1>rion not en out list started' They calling every respor ve s;er ry in Fine 113s C3unty.
, made calls to the Sheriff's Department; to police, fire, i
and emergency operation cen.ers. rhese peoo'e caller' every I
-d-
1 l
,_ response agency they could find in the telephone book and
(_,/ in addition called 911. It resulted was a tremendous impact on our resources because in many cases we found that one person would call three or four agencies. It ended up with the 911 system being overloaded with people requesting assistance. It caused our EMS units to run 1,000 calls during a two day period and our ambulance resources in the county ran an additional 1,000 emergency calls. The majority of these were the people that required assistance during evacuation. We ended up with about 500 of those persons being taken to local hospitals and another 279 persons taken to nursing homes. They caused a serious problem within our system because we 7-s L-J were not aware that trey wei there ,ad when the emergency . occurred, suddenly it was li<e they lapped out of the woodwork and placed t.amendcas deman's on our resources.~n." t We were not prepared (or it ut that
- ire .
Q. Since that time, ?. c; m~~2 jur' + tr ;7 ;our 3 emergency planning > A. Well, what I ink as n d .as not at in ;his county, sh We finally rec gnii C h fCt that the people on our listy .co were just the .ip ni ae c. t ,c 3 W had ac c reviously,w in our emergen y piso , r aco ;n . cd th s at.d ..ade any . e ,e provision for 6 hat la Je lu:. er of r aple who call in that , need for assitcance a, ties aut minu te. We nave since ,.
'(
( adjusted to that 2nd cther raunties are adjusting to that , throughout Flcridd. I
What we have done is to establish a phone number that can be called that in turn provide access to resources that we have set aside that are separate from those that are going out to nursing homes and hospitals, and separate from those that are going out to the persons registered on the' list. Those resources are available to assist in providing service and assistance to the people that we do not already know about. O. In your review of the SpMC and its procedures and resources under that plan, have you seen any indication that a similar allocation has been made to the unregistered special needs population? A. The plan is oriented to the evacuation of special needs , facilities and the persons on the registered list. Where there is a reference to.a phone number to call Cor ^9 inf orr.iation and assistance, there does not appe r to be .ny provision for providing such assistance. There is no indic' tion as to what person is responsible ':o andle tt. set calls within the emergency response orgarize2ic . T1.e r t is
.o in;_ication that there is any transpar'it n lloc.te t; sut ac rt the unregistered special needr 7-,v*4 i )
- he ct: appears to be a breakdown i tb p'an inc ;~ gr apasne/ the phone call for assista ce. ,,
- 3. In Pho reference you have mentiorad or in anothar provision of tha plan, is there any indica' on 35 '3 how many phone-i, caJis that one phone number can 13ndle and resp ad to?
\. W t N re i s no t . I-Tha r a ie Msc 03 eidence or a ny wm the-dreadna i mpai-redTpa rt of that corrriUMrat7 ens-sysh.;n t h alt -StipperWF he eme.rgency--operatiUTT Te~ lite r . ?ou 5ee r-evidence that the number is going to go 'nto a ning19 r"e
1 or a switchboard where one person would route the call. If they are doing that, it may be bad. This occurred during Hurricane David in Dade County, Florida, where persons f
-requiring assistance during' evacuation were.given'the >
sm emergency operation' center phone number. , d It totally i lodked" up the phone system at the EOC. Q. Have.you identified any problems in connection with Special. Needs population under the SpMC? A. Well another problem that I have with the plan is the lack of staff to assist the Special Needs population. When you are dealing with a special needs population, you are dealing with people that need assistance. From what I see in the: g , SpMC, NHY ORO has bus drivers. responding with vehicles to-q locations to. pick up the Special Needs po; lation. What we
;c have.found;is that additional persons are eeded on .hoser vehicles to provide assistance. Normally, we try te put an <+
EMT-or paramedic on that vehicle because w.oti c 'aere t j people have some type of medical problem ani it it- very difficult for that but dri
~
i I r, as >rM 10 'J Pssist f them.in'gettingsout of tw ' ome e - 1 i' o .
- a.
oSo the lack of-staf ing on the buses is.of concern. !tiIs" going to be very difficul' .o have only one person ^ T a bu's
. going around to pick up x cle thah you kan shoad of timW"
.have some type of specie nied. It may 3107 be ter2 difficult for the Special Needs population to walk to the bus and to board the bus.
Q. Do your concerns extend to those people have identified themselves as ambulatory and able to have a curbside pick (,-s) up? v A. Yes.- I still feel it is advisable to provide someone with some medical experience or background on that bus to assist. Q. In considering the loading the elderly or other special~4 needs ambulatory populations onto school buses, how many people have you found are needed to do that kind of loading procedure? A. I base my observations on this point from experience, because I watched the loading door of school buses used during a nursing home evacuation where we had a large numbar of personnel to help. We used firemen from five different fire departments to evacuate a 120-bed nursing home. The first step on a school bus is extremely high. Elderly people, who are included in the special needs population, find it very I . difficult to raise their leg up and thei pull themselves into the bus because of that high first ster You wo"ld norm' ally have to have, at a minimum, three peop.'i to assist each person getting into that bus. Now hat is two p+ ople, one on each side, to assist each person by ral.:ing'them up, and one within the bus to help t aes.. to aeu .n m a bus. .aw there may i be ways to get around i ,
- uci as tamp, u >id ..2 things that 7
car be constructed. so: av 7, ~ hen you +ust pu' up to y evacuate a faci!!ty, (o s tu3 think r ou: :he n*rnber of h l people it will require '.) t)ad the typo or persvr being i evacuated onto t.ie t*/ac of /et .c le t.sef . - Q. In connection with nursing hor as or othct spectil s facilities that have not planned or exercised tor evacuations ahead of tire, have you had any experience as (\ -} to whether they would t pical: need additional staff to support them in the eve-t of an ev=<uer na?
1
.A. I have normally found that if a nursing home evacuates or a (I-medical facility evacuates, without prior planning and exe cising, it becomes very difficult for that facility to complete the evacuation on their own. They are going to l77 'need outside help. y, l-Q. 'So in terms'of a planning recommendation, do you believe that it is' advisable'for a response organization-to have-
,s additional personnel available to make such a response? h '
'A.- You have two options. One is to devote the time, the training and the exercising to allow the medical facilities to do it on there own. If for whatever reason, certain facilities can not, will not, or has not had preper training and. exercising, recognize that fact and include in
~
your plan a capacity to provide the additional resources,. h that.will be needed'to-evacuate those facilitif .. 12 So to-the extentithat;there are Specia, Needs T cilities in the EpZ that have not trained or exercised, whi -would your-recommendation be?' qq A. If'they have not trained or'esercised . head of ime, I would strongly suggest that that f -:t a ro<.oge z d end resources allocated to allow tha"1 M e a + . : t. m a c a e. ; a t i c a i byprovidinhassistance. Th r. SP1C 'or nr+- pt- tje ans
- additional reso'urces.' to .he a ai1able. f 9 r evacua: ing Jpecisi, e
" Needs Facil"it'ies other taan croviding transporo tiot; $
)
(
9TATEMENT OF QUALIFICATIONS
%)
Guy E. Deines, a CRG Associate, is currently the Director of the Department of Civil Emergency Services, for Pinellas County, Florida. There, h3 is responsible for the budgeting and management of 11 Fire Districts, and the budgeting and contract management of 17 Emergency Medical services Districts. As Director, Mr. Dainea develops and implements all County Emergency operations Plans, and is responsible for the county-wide 911 Program and the activities of the Pinellas County Emergency operations Center. He is also an Instructor for the Federal Emergency Management Agency's course on " Evacuation Planning and Response Actions Simulation." From May 1979 to February 1987, Mr. Daines was as Director of Emergency Management Administration and Operstic as Coordinator for the Department of Civil Emergency Services 4.1 Pinellas County, Florida. There he developed the PinelltS County Hurricane Evacuation Implementation Guide and Ri:cvery Implementation Guide, including a step-by-step <2 cision-making process for hurricane evacuation, which utilize state-of-the-art hurricane planning, response and detailed p acedures for., recovery operations. He also initiated and coc,linated the first ' (c all-systems Pinellas County Hurricane Evacuatic Exercine (_) coordinated the first all-systems PineJ1as Coun Murricat e Evacuation Exercise; and developed and squip?sd '
.t state-of-the-art County Emergency oper tione ce er.
While at the Department of Civil Ersrgt1cy N rt e v. u wsA responsible for EOC activation and tasranac epe- t '.o n x-ing i Hurricane Elena, which included the evz:uarton 2 : - nw 00,000 Pinellas County residents, the cunct.rr. at on :te inn M tbree hospitals (211 patients) and 1) ur~ int * ' i ats),
. and the sheltering of 114,000 aw cu as.
Ifr. caines also coordinttad the levelo. a. _ '. ion of the first Pinellas Count, Natart ut (a suc! n .- ., and er crdincted County amargt.. cy rx. or.. *s, .a v.au - m .N t. % Petersburg Incident Comme.nd F u dr in', :m.v .h. r '. ; a ; Fire, w'ich resulted in the avecuat at of tpI c u tcC rnsidants.
'4 ' #r Mr Dai:'as carned his M.J.. in n 'ag<.mero 0% b Mn " aloge*in St. Louis and his B.S. it. Cen.nt :e (3ur '.neau) fres h tern Kentucky University. He is e retir9d U.S. Irmy T.i.sutonon'.
Colonel. O
b DAINES - CROSS. 19516 l <g s 1 , JUDGE SMITH: Ms. Selleck? ' !. 2 CROSS-EXAMINATION'
.i 3 BY.MS. SELLEOK:
4 Q Colonel Daines, my name is Kate Selleck and I'm px 5 representing the Applicants'here. 6 You are currently the Director of Civil Emergency. 7 Services.for Pinellas County in Florida; is that right? l l.- i..- '8 'A (Daines) That's correct.
~
,. 9 JUDGE SMITH: Do you have a cross-examination i.,.- 10 plan?. 11 MS.LSELLECK: . Oh, yes,.Your Honor, I do. 12 ' (Document' proffered to judgas. ) 13 BY MS. SELLECK: [}
. %./
'14 Q 'And.you have held that position for over two
'15 years',.is that right?
16- A (Daines) ' Yes, ma' am, I have, c 17 Q .I noticed'in your statement of qualifications at 18 the end of your testimony that you were an instructor for a 19 . FEMA course called " Evacuation Planning and Response Actions 20 Simulations?" l21 lh (Daines) Yes, ma'am, I was. I helped write that
,22- course, also.
- 23 Q Is that an annual course?
u r .24 A. (Daines) I believe FEMA teaches that on an annual
^
25 basis. I have.not actually taught in it for about a year 1 Heritage Reporting Corporation O. (202) 628-4888
l II DAINES - CROSS 19517 l
1 and a half.
' ' N] 2 Q How many times have you taught it? 3 A (Daines) I believe three times, if my 4 recollection is correct. 5 Q How long does it run for? 6 A (Daines) It's a one week course. And normally I 7 would go up and teach my part of that course which dealt
, 8 with the evacuation process and also special needs 9 evacuation.
10 Q As the course concerned with evacuation planning 11 for radiological emergencies specifically or is it more 12 general? 13 A (Daines) It was all hazards.
'N 14 Wa had county directors from nuclear counties,
[O 15 also. Or counties that have nuclear power plants. 16 Q I see.
, 17 Now you're appearing here today on behalf of the 18 Massachusetts Attorney General; is that right?
19 A (Daines) Yes, ma' am. 20 Q Do you have a contract with Mass AG? 21 A (Daines) Yes, ma'am. With HMG, I was contacted 22 through HMG it's called. 23 Q Do you know what HMG stands for? 24 A (Daines) Hazards Management Group. 2b Q When did you agree to go to work for the Mass AG?
,rh
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Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
DAINES - CROSS 19518 j 1 A (Daines) I believe it was in November. I was
2 just contacted to review some documents to see if I was 3 interested in' participation. And I'm very concerned about 4' t.he special needs problems, and that's basically why I 5 agreed to do it.
6 Q Who from the Mass AF's office did you talk to 7 initially?
, 8 A (Daines) I bel 3 eve Mike Carter. But again, that 9 was back quite a while ago.
10 Q Do you recall w'2at they asked you to do? 11 MS. TALBOT: Excuse me. Could we just clarify 12 something. Mr. Carter is not from our office. 13 THE WITNESS: (,)aines) No. Mr. Carter is from
, 14 HMG.
15 MS. TALBOT: Right. 16 THE WITNESS: (Daines) We have a "G" here that
. 17 I'm missing --
18 MR. DIGNAN: I think the question was clear. The 19 answer I have a problem with. 20 MS. TALBOT: Whatever, Mr. Dignan, let's just keep l 21 it clear. 22 BY MS. SELLECK: 23 Q Do you know who at t he Attorney General's office 24 contacted Mr. Carter? 25 A (Daines) No, I have no idea. Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 t
- 1 DAINES - CROSS 19519 I
_ , -~g 'l Q Can you tell us what your assignment was? l
* ' 2 A (Daines) They asked me to review some planning 3 documents and especially oriented towards the evacuation'of 4 the special needs population. And I received those 5 documents and reviewed them and made a decision after I 6 looked at them.
7 Q A decision as to? i 8 A (Daines) As to whether or not I was interested in 9 doing this. 10 Q I see. 11 Did you have any familiarity with the SPMC, the 12 Seabrook Plan for Massachusetts Communities before you went 13 to work for the Mass AG? 14 A (Daines) No, I did not. 15 Q I take it the Mass AG provided you with copies of 16 parts of the plan or did they give you -- .y. 17 A (Daines) Parts of the plan. 18 Q You didn't get all ten of the yellow volumes? 19 A (Daines) I did not get all the plan. 20 Q Do you recall what parts of the plan you reviewed? 21 A (Daines) I looked at the -- I guess you could 22 call it the basic plan which would be sections 3.6 which is 23 on evacuation; section 2.1 on organization. 24 I also looked at the implementation procedures, 25 IP-1.10; IP-2.7 and 2.10. I also reviewed the evaluation of Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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n DAINES -. CROSS :19520 jM. 1 the plan by FEMA and that was-for' standards "G" and "J."' i j 74 Q m) - And Appendix M which was transportation. L2i
'3 Q. Do.you recall if you reviewed implementing-4 procedure 1.3 for the. evacuation support coordinator ll 5- function?
6' A ' (Daine s ) ' Yes. I did look at the evacuation 7: support coordinator function.
. '8 Q Now you descri.be in your testimony your efforts to 9 locate all=of-the opecial needs people in Pinellas County, t . .
10 Florida.
- 11. Would you tell us, in your efforts to locate all 12 of these people did you have the cooperation of the state 13' government?
() 14-15. A (Daines) We have the cooperation of the state government in Florida because it is a state law in Florida. 16 Voluntary registration.
- .-- 17 Q And you received assistance from the Department of 18 Health and Rehabilitative Services in Florida; is that 19 right?
20 A (Daines) No, we did not. 21 Any assistance by them is purely voluntarily on 22 their part. At the present time we're trying to change 23 Florida law to raake that mandatory. 24 Q I see. 25 You mention on the bottom of page six of your i Beritage Reporting Corporation l (202) 628-4888 l I
g. l t DAINES - CROSS 19521 l l . jr'T 1 testimony that you'use home health agencies and also the 2 Florida Department of Health and Rehabilitative Services. 3 They've helped you in tae past? 4 A (Daines) Yes. That's purely done on an l' 5 individual basis. And if a county chooses to work with them 6 and they have a good established working relationship, then 7 they'll work together.
.. 8 Q Then they get that help?
9 A (Daines) Yes. 10 But there is no mandatory requirement on a part of 11 that agency to work with the county. 12 Q I see. 13 And for your county you do have that relationship (T 14 and you do get that help?
\>
15 A (Daines) Yes. 16 We work with the Department of Health and
. 17 Rehabilitative Services; the Office of the Aging. Any 18 agency that we can contact including our home health care.
19 Q Are you aware that for the Massachusetts portion 20 of the Seabrook Station EPZ that the state government and 21 the local governments here are not participating in any 22 planning? 23 A (Daines) I'm aware of it from reading the basic 24 plan or the plan where it does mention that. 25 0 Are you also aware that the Visiting Nurses () Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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- l. ~ ' .i l W 4 l
r-r' -'M "
, c, c-DAINES' . CROSS 19522 i
[-) .. 1.~
. Associations,: one of'the home health care agencies in ;'. ; . 2: Massachusetts, is state funded here?
o < l i- 3 A (Daines); No , I'm'not aware of that.
- 4 5
n ' 6 7
.,,- 8' 9
l.;.
.10-11 12
-13 14 7- 15' 16
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-18 19 20 21 22 i
23 24 . u 25 1 Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
i DAINES - CROSS 19523 4 i fN 1 Q In your testimony, you refer to the efforts that
; )
.~~ 2 New Hampshire Yankee has made to identify the special 3 population persons in the Massachusetts portion of the EPZ.
4 Can you tell us if you have reviewed since you 5 filed your testimony the Applicants' Rebuttal Testimony No.
6 6 regarding special populations? Have you seen that 7 document? , 8 A (Daines) No, I have not.
9 Q Are you aware that the Applicants did an original e ) 10 mailing of special needs survey to all the households in the 11 EPZ and a follow-up survey a-year later? 12 A (Daines) Yes, I am. 13 0 Were you aware that the Applicants provided 14 letters and posters to approximately 380 state and regional l ) 15 social services and handicap advocacy groups? 16 A (Daines) Yes, I am. 17 0 You' re aware of that. 18 And that they took out ads in area newspapers at 19 the time of that original survey? 20 A (Daines) Yes, I am. 21 Q Were you aware that another distribution to all 22 the EPZ households was made in 1989 with public information 23 materials in calendars? 24 A (Daines) No, I'm not aware of when this was done; 25 just of the concept of what was being done, not the actual f~% Reporting Corporation ( ') Heritage (202) 628-4888 1
DAINES - CROSS 197. 4 l' ~ l -/~ s 1 dates and when it was done.
- i. (
J 2 Q Are you aware that there was extensive newspaper 3 and radio advertisement the week before and the week after 4 that mailing? l 5 MS. GREER: Objection as to form of question. 6' It's not clear from the form of the question what is meant 7 by the word " extensive" advertisement. l , 8 BY MS. SELLECK: 9 Q Do you understand the word " extensive"? 10 A (Daines) Yes, I do. And I would assume, I would 11 hope that you would do that because that's common practice. 12 Q Were you aware that sign langauge television 13 program, which was produced by a local handicapped advocacy 14 organization, was put on at the time also? 15 A (Daines) No, I was not. 16 Q Is that the sort of effort of which you would
- , 17 approve?
18 A (Daines) Would you repeat that, please? 19 Q Is that the sort of effort you would approve of, 20 having a sign language television program? 21 A (Daines) We have done things such as what you are 22 doing, and we have done more than what you are doing. And 23 we still do not feel that we have an adequate list. What 24 you are doing is what other people have done and are doing. 25 And we have done more than what you are doing.
-, s-( j Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 l
.:i DAINES - CROSS 19525
}'s
(~)y 1 I've run on cable television, as an example, over
. and over and over on the government access channels. We 3 have gone and run spot announcements; same type thing. But 4 as I said, we've probably done a little more than what you 5 are'doing right now.
6 Well, certainly with the state and local Q
7 governmental efforts --
, 8 A (Daines) No, that's strictly through counties; 9 not throuch the state supporting it.
10 Q Are you aware that the guidance directs us to do 11 an annual mailing, an annual mailing of public information 12 materials that would include a cail-back card for special
~
13- needs people?
/ \ 14 A (Daines) Yes, I am.
V. 15 Q On page 8 of your testimony, you say and I quote. 16 It's part of that middle paragraph there. "In some
,- 17 communities, many of the people that were actually 18 registered on our list," and these, I guess, you're 19 referring to special needs people?
20 A (Daines) That's correct.
" We dedicated 21 Q ...were only using us as a backup.
22 resources to go pick them up and found they were not there." 23 And then you go on to say that in other communities very 24 high percentages of people were there and were picked up. 25 Would you agree with me that if a fair number of l t Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 t 1- - _ _ - - _ _ _ - _ _ _ - _ _ - . _ - _ - - - - _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ - . - - _ _ _ _ _ _ - _ _ _ - _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ . _ . _ _ _ _ _
DAINES - CROSS 19526 (~T 1 people who have preregie'ered use other forms of Q)
'. 2 transportation, that the transportation resources that were 3 slated for them are now available for other people?
4 Do you agree with that? l 5 A (Daines) The transportation resources -- 6 Q That you had slated for the preregistered people. 7 A (Daines) No, I would not agree to that, because
,- 8 you will find that in the middle of an emergency those 9 resources that are committed, you are going to expend those 10 resources for those people. And you are going to find then 11 that they are not there. And those resources are sitting at 12 somebody's house knocking on a door trying to figure out' 13 where they are, and you can't use that bus, van or whatever
() 14 15 it_may be while it's there. Q If it were the case that the plan only sent the 16 resources after a phone call verification that indeed they 17 were necessary, would your answer be different? 18 A (Daines) I can only tell you what I've learned 19 from experience and from dealing with other county directors 20 that have gone through this. And I've been doing this for l 21 several years. I've been involved in workshops in Georgia 1 22 and Louisiana and Texas teaching. Just recently I, I guess j 23 last year, on the special needs portion of the national 24 television program run by FEMA. This problem is just now 25 surfacing.
'O ( / Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
DAINES - CROSS 19527 j'"i 1 There are very few people that have a handle on 2 the total problem. In the middla of an emergency, what we 3 learned is that that list that you developed, first of all, 4' through studies, through surveys that have been done such as 5 United Cerebral Palsy, that Florida conducted a survey in -. 6 1984, which included the nuclear counties in Florida. They 7- made a statement as the primary problem is that no matter
',, 8 what effort you put into a voluntary registration program, 9 you will only achieve minimal results.
10 Now, that statement has in fact been put out from 11 different agencies, different surveys. We learned that 12 through experience. At the time I didn't believe that. I 13 developed a list that had 3,000 people on that list. When 14 in fact the emergency occurred, whether or not phone calls (} 15 were made or not, a large number of those people were not 16 there.
..- 17 Now, we attribute that to we think that many of 18 them were only using government as a backup source of 19 transportation.
20 Q I understand that. My question went more to this. l 1 21 If the transportation resources that you have dedicated for l 22 the people on your list, if they are not sent out to those 23 people because a telephone verification wasn't made, they l 24 are available for other purposes. 25 Would you agree with that? Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
DAINES - CROSS 19528 "r"Q 1 A (Daines) No, I don't. As an operational person, Q-- 2 .I don't think that will happen. You are talking someone's 3 life. You are not -- 4 JUDGE SMITH: Now just a moment. You can accept 5 the premise of her question and then, quite appropriately, 6 explain if you don't agree with the premise of her question.- 7 But she's entitled to an answer, nevertheless.
, 8 Do you want to start again on this question?
9 MS. SELLECK: Yes.
-10 BY MS. 2LLECK:
11 Q If you'll agree with me that those resources are-12 not deployed until a verification is made, and that 13 verification is not made and they are not deployed, that j 14 those resources are available for other people? 15 A .(Daines) I would agree to only that statement. 16 But can I clarify that further based upon as
, 17 running the operation center what would actually happen?
18 Q You disagree with the premise of the question? 19 A (Daines) Yes. 20 Q Okay. l 21 A (Daines) Can I clarify that further as an 22 operational type person sitting in the EOC, and I've run 23 operation centers? i 24 Q Certainly. 25 A (Daines) I don't believe that because you did not l; Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 i L__________ _ _ . _ !
DAINES - CROSS 19529 make that phone contact, you will not send that vehicle. (~] 1
~- 2- You are not in that position. When you don't make that-l 3 phone contact, the vehicle will be dispatched.
4 Q Are you aware -- I'm turning to another subject 5 now of federal regulations. 6 Are you aware of federal regulations which would 7' require facilities that receive Medicare or Medicaid funds c 8 to have an emergency plan and to exercise it on a regular 9 basis? 10 A (Daines) Yes, ma' am, I am. 11 Q And are you also aware that nursing homes and 12 hospitals have to comply with state and local fire safety 13 codes and -- well, are you aware of that? 14 A (Daines) Yes, ma' am.
}
15 Q And would you agree that most of those codes 16 follow the National Fire Protection Association life safety
, 17 code?
18 A (Daines) Only for the fire side. 19 Q Okay. Are you aware that that code requires that 20 medical facilities have emergency evacuation procedures? 21 A (Daines) Yes, I am. 22 I have also reviewed -- I have 73 nursing homes 23 and 23 hospitals, and I have reviewed those plans. And I l 24 find that in the majority of the cases, and this has been 4 25 stated to the Department of Rehabilitative Services in the (f )j Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 __:_m___________.________u.____m________m_..__--__u_ _ _ . . . . _ _ _ _-u__u___.__:_____..__________.u___ _ . _ . _ _ _ _ _ - . _ _ _ _ _ . _ _ . _ _ _ _ _ . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ___________2_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ . . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ . _ _
DAINES - CROSS 19530-(' 1 State of Florida. I went out to Texas and reviewed hospital A \ 2- and-nursing.home plans, and I will say that in most cases I 3 find them-to be very inadequate from an emergency planning
- 4. standpoint, because they are not emergency' planners. That's 5 not wtst.they do for a living. They provide medical care 6 'for a living..
7 7 Q Would you agree that if they acceptyd r a tining and e ;8 aid, that they would do a better at evacuatitoi 9 A (Daines) Yes. I believe that. training is an 10 answer. 11 MS. SELLECK: I have no further questions, Your 12 Honor., 13 JUDGE SMITH: Ms. Chan? () 14
-15 (Document proffered to all parties.)
CROSS-EXAMINATION 16 BY MS. CHAN: e 17 Q Welcome, Mr. Daines. My name is Elaine Chan, and 18 I am the counsel-for the NRC Staff. 19 You mentioned that you had some experience in 20 training with counties that had nuclear plants in them; is 21 that correct? 22 A (Daines) Would you repeat that, please? 23 Q You mentioned in your testimony that you had j 24 experience in training some personnel from counties that had 25 nuclear power plants located in them; is that correct? Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
DAINES - CROSS 19531
'T 1 A (Daines) I don't think I specifically mentioned
(' 2 that in my testimony here that I had training from nuclear 3 power plant counties that I remember. 4 I can say that I have given training to all the 5 county directors in the State of Florida concerning the 6 special needs problem at the conference for the emergency 7 management directors. I've been called in to different i 8 counties around the State of Florida to include those that 9 have nuclear power plants where we have discussed the 10 special needs problem in workshops, meetings, et cetera. 11 Q I see. And in any of your workshops and meetings i 12 have any of them dealt with the issue of the identification I ! 13 of special needs populations in response to a nuclear or l [ } 14 radiation threat?
\_/
15 A (Daines) I don't think specifically on that. But 16 .I think you have to understand that in emergency planning
, 17 there is certain issues that cross boundaries and apply not 18 matter what type of disaster. And special need~ issue is 19 one of those problems that cross over into other aspects of 20 emergency planning.
21 Q You seem to have vast experience in the emergency 22 planning area. Based on this experience, would you say that 1 23 people might be more inclined to identify themselves as a 24 special needs person if they knew it was a radioactive 25 threat as opposed to something like an evacuation for a 1
,/ y ;
t,) Heritage Reporting Corporation j (202) 628-4888 l l l
l-DAINES - CROSS 19532 f'% 1 hurricane where some people choose to stay in their homes 1 2 and won't leave them? 3 A (Daines) I personally don't believe that, no. I 4 think a threat to a person is a threat. 5 Q Are you familiar with FEMA Guidance Memoranda 247 6 A (Daines) Yes, I am. I have read that. 7 Q And you're familiar with provisions that set forth h 8 FEMA's guidance on what would be a satisfactory survey of 9 special needs population? e 10 A (Daines) Yes, I am. 11 Q And what is your understanding of that guidance? 12 A (Daines) Well, I think basically it talks about 13 surveying the population, having the voluntary registration, () 14 15 and having it done on an annual basis. What we have learned in a real emergency is that's 16 not adequate. That the type people that you get on your
, 17 list are normally the type people that have some type of a 18 serious medical problem. And what happens is when the 19 emergency occurs, when you only update that list on an 20 annual basis, that either that person is now in a nursing 21 home, they are dead, or they have moved or something has 22 occurred. And you will find that a percentage of those 23 people will not be on your list anymore.
24 Q Do you think it would be helpful before one would 25 dispatch and say transportation or medical assistance to () Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 1 (
. .j i
'n ?
DAINES - CROSS 19533 r^y 1- help someone evacuate, whether you would call on the
-U' 2 . telephone'and confirm, and if'they_said they needed 3 assistance, that you would send it. But if they definitely 1 4 said they did not.need assistance, you would not' send it. l 5 Is that a reasonable assumption?
6 A (Daines) Well, I think the first thing is that 7 you are' basing that on a premise that they're going to tell a 8 you that. And I really don't know if that's true, that they 9 will tell you. If you call and you get them on the phone 10 and say, do you need assistance, first of all, they 11 shouldn't be on that list if they don't need assistance. 12 That's the first thing. 13 When you make that phone call, you are not calling j 14 to find out if they really need assistance, because they 15 shouldn't be on there. You are making that call to tell 16 them that you are going to come and pick them up and to . 17 start getting ready. 18 Q In response to cross-examination by Ms. Selleck 19 for the Applicants she wanted to know whether or not if you 20 'made a telephone call to the person and you called and you 21 asked if they still needed the assistance that they were 22 pre-identified for, and they said they would not need it, 23 would you still in that event send the vehicle to fetch 24 them? 25 A (Daines) Not if that person told the individual i l () seritage Reporting corporation (202) 628-4888
J r . DAINES - CROSS 19534 Vy 1 making the call, no, I do not need assistance.
'( l-
' 2. Q So that resource would be available to someone who 3 might call spontaneously?
4 A (Daines) Yes. 5 Q I note in your testimony that you have a lot of 1 . l' 6 experience in planning, especially with home health care 7 agencies and cooperating local or county officials. i 8 Is that true? 9 A (Daines) The experience gained in working with 10 home health care agencies has all been in about the past 11 year and a half, because we came to a realization that
'12 because of the DRG program that has now been implemented I 13 guess in, in about 1986, that diagnostic -- let's see, l 14 diagnostic review. It's under the Medicare program.
<~}
15 What's happening, though, is that hospitals are 16 putting people out into the community much faster. And you
. 17 will find more people going under home health care because 18 of that program which was implemented by the federal 19 government. And we started working with our home health 20 care agencies because we found that many more people were 21 going under home health care in the community. And many of-22 these people, in turn, would need to be on our list.
23 Now the problem Chen that is generated by that is 24 most of those people are only on home health care for a 25 short periods of time. And since you do not know when a
' (~T
() Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
DAINES - CROSS 19535 r) k/ 1 nuclear accident occurs, it's very difficult to try and keep
. 2 that as an updated list because,.in turn, the annual 3 requirement for updating.
4 Q Have you found in your experience good cooperation 5 between the State of Florida agencies and the county or the
6 local agencies that you have worked with?
7 Have you found a cooperative relationship? Have
, 8 you developed a cooperative relationship?
9 A (Daines) Not' from state level. 10 Q I see. But on more local level, you have? 11 A (Daines) As I mentioned earlier in my testimony, 12 I find that working locally appears to get more things done 13 where you are working face to face with people. The state
/ '\ 14 Department of Health and Rehabilitative Services has been b
15 nonsupportive, and in fact on rule changes or statute 16 changes have come out against what the emergency I was 17 trying to do. 18 Q Do you think that your efforts to compile a 19 special needs list for Pinellas County would be 20 significantly more difficult if you did not have this 1 21 relationship with the county and the local agencies? 22 A (Dainos) Would it be more significant or 23 difficult? 24 Q Would it be more difficult to identify these 25 people without that cooperation? Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 l l . .
3 V l M 1 DAINES ' CROSS 19536 1 A (Daines) I had more people on the list before 1-
. 2 ;got' involved'with home care agencies. We purged the list d .
3' E and had to go back and start all over, and we're gradually
- l. 4 building that back up.
5 You will.get people on our list based upon the
6 other things that you do. I.think there is a. moral l
7 requirement on our side to work with all these agencies and 8 also a requirement,.as part of some of the~ FEMA guidelines, 9 to make as much effort as you can. Ind as-I mentioned 10 . earlier, it's like lifting a stone and you'll never know 11 what you find under that stone. It's only the tip of the 12 iceberg. 13 Q Referring to your review of the SPMC, can you 14 please just confirm for me whether or not the' standard 15 against which you are judging the adequacy Of the SPMC is 16- the plan that you have for Pinellas County and the extensive
., 17 experience that you've had in developing that plan and the 18 list of special needs population?
19 Is that the standard against which you are 20 measuring the SPMC7 21 A (Daines) No , not totally. Obviously, we do have 22 a plan and we have been working on this for the past eight 23 years. We have dealt with the special needs problem. We 24 have found, as we got more involved in it, we learned that 25 the severity of the problem is much more than what we had Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 l j i
DAINES - CROSS 19537
;r'} 1 ever realized. So we do have a plan. I obviously looked at J-
.L ' ' 2 that. I also looked at the experience of implementing that 3 plan and having to go through that in a large-scale a evacuation where you had to provide that service to those 5 that were on your list.
6 But in addition to that, I base that on my 7 contacts not only in the State of Florida, which are
, 8 extensive with other directors concerning what they are 9 doing with special needs in their plans, but also during 10 workshops and meetings that I have with people from other 11 parts of the country.
12 O I see. And in your meetings at the state level 13 you said and with people from other parts of the country, 14 were these planners -- were you discus sing this with the [L.)D 15 assumption that they had the cooperation of their state or 16 their local agency when they were planning? 17 A (Daines) I think it varies state by state. I 18 think that the thing that I see and the thing that concerns 19 me very much is the total lack of understanding of what the 20 true problem is. That it's very easy to put something down 21 on paper. But as you get more and more involved with 22 providing a service and protecting these people, you will 23 find that the problems will just grow and grow and grow. 24 And it is a tremendous problem, and there are very few 25 people that have a complete understanding of that. And (-) Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 l l
t i 1 DAINES - CROSS 19538 j'N - 1 every day you learn more and more about it.
- V. 2 In your testimony you discuss some of the L 4 Q
3 inadequacies that you found'in the SPMC, including' 4 communication and resource overload. 5 Do you think either of those issues, that's
# communication and resource overload, might be resolved if a 6
( , 7 more extensive planning effort was conducted similar to that
, 8 undertaken in rinellas County?
9 MS. GREER: Objection as to form of question. 10 Are you'asking him specifically whether he thinks 11 resource and communications overload will be taken care of 12 by county or state participation? 13 MS. CHAN: No. This is if the ' inadequacies -- I 14 can rephrase the question if you would like, and you can try [G~) 15 again. 16 BY MS. CHAN:
, 17 Q Referring to your testimony on inadequacies that 18 you identified in the SPMC, in particular, communications 19 and resource overload which seems to be a common thread in 20 your testimony saying that people not on the list will call 21 in and there won't be resources available for them.
22 Do you think these problems might be resolved if a 23 more extensive effort, similar to that undertaken in 24 Pinellas County to survey these people ahead of time and 4 25 planned what to do in case of an emergency, do you think Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
DAINES - CROSS 19539 1 those problems wold be resolved if we pursued a course that O 2 you did in Pinellas County? 3 A (Daines) I think that would be a first step. 4 But I think the point I'm trying to make that the planning 5 effort is not the only part of what you must do. You know, i' 6 a plan is just a piece of paper. The question is whether or ; 7 not you truly understand how to implement that plan. Aad I
, 8 think that's the key to it.
I 9 0 I would like to explore a little bit your opinion 10 on page 7 of your testimony. You state, "I think that the 11 primary difference is through the experience that we have 12 gained in working in this area over tne past eight to nine 13 years." () 14 15 Have you found that the Pinellas County special needs population list has improved over the years? 16 A (Daines) I can say yes and no to that. As I 17 said, when we originally got involved in a planning process, 18 we did surveys to find out, estimating how mat,.y people 19 possibly might be on our list. Our problem was that we 20 chose, and I shouldn't say " chose". Through lack of 21 experience, we chose to ignore those figures. 1 22 It was estimated that 12,000 to 15,000 people j 23 would require outside assistance in the county during an 24 emergency. We ended up with 3,000 people on that list. Now 25 that list was updated on an annual basis. The list (f Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
I DAINES - CROSS 19540 [') I gradually grew as you put more' effort into it. But that 2 still did not mean that you had a good, valid list. It only 3 meant you had more people on the list. 4 Q But then you could plan with a greater response, 5 is that correct, if you had more people identified? 6 A (Daines) We now have on that same list 1300 7 ' people. And what we hope is that those 1300 people is a
, 8 better list and a more valid list than the 3,000 that we had 9 prior to that.
10 Q So that what you are saying is mors is not always 4 11 better? 1 12 A (Daines) That's very true. i 13 Q And did you find that your lists were refined 14 after each emergency? 15 A (Daines) No, because most communities do not have 16 major emergencies that impact on the entire county or the
., 17 entire city. So you will find, I think, very few 18 communities that say, all right, we'll now update the list 19 because we just had this little incident. So there is very 20 few incidents that take place in the country that are of 21 that magnitude that would cause you to suddenly redo your 22 entire list. We did it because of an incident that impacted 23 on the entire county.
24 Q You mention that your list pared down from 13,000 25 and now you have -- (p) Heritage Reporting (202) 628-4888 Corporation l l
DAINES - CROSS 19541 fs - 1 A' (Daines) Three thousand. (' ' ')-
. 2 Q I'm sorry, 3,000, and now you have it pared down 3 to 1300, and you think this is a more efficient list.
4 Was this based on some confirmation of the 3,000 5 -that helped you pare down the list? Did you have any 6 confirmatory efforts? 7 A (Daines) The carrent list, the way we have
., 8 designed the system now, is that we decided, and what we 9 learned during a real emergency is that people living in a 10 community place a great deal of loyalty and they feel, I 11 guess, trust towards their local fire, police, people such 12 as that.
^
13 We now have a list that is computerized and spread
/ \ 14 throughout the community and implemented at county level'and V
15 at city level. And what we recommend then is we're trying 16 to imp,lement at least a semi-annual update of that list. I 17 personally feel it should be more than that, but it becomes 18 very difficult, even a quarterly update of that list. We 19 are recommending individual interviews by the local special. 20 needs officer who will go out and actually sit down with 21 that bedridden person, talk to them, and we found that 22 paring the list down will take place that way. And we slso 23 find that you will end up with a more valid list that way. 24 O I have one last question. You mention just now 25 that some of the paring down of this list is possible 'rx () Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 f l l
- _ _ - - - _ _ - - . }
c____ _ _ _ . _-. -_ . _ _ _ _ _ . _ _ _ . . 1,E DAINES - CROSS 19542 L.g-q .1 that some of'the paring.down of this list is possible
'- - 2 through the people's' confidence in their police and fire
-3 fighters in their competence, .in their participation.
4 Can we generalize to other parts of the country 5 that this would be true? That if people had more confidence 6 in the responders, that they would respond to a survey 7 asking if they had needs more honestly? i 8 A (Daines) I would hope that throughout our country 9 that our populations have faith and trust in our law 10 enforcement and fire agencies. 11 MS. CHAN: Thank you. I have no further 12 questions. Thank you, Mr. Daines. 13 JUDGE SMITH: Would it be all right if we broke (]
^\_/
14 for lunch? 15 Do you have much redirect? 16 MS. TALBOT: I have a little bit, Your Honor, but
, 17 I would prefer to break for lunch now.
18 JUDGE' SMITH: All right. 19 MS. TALBOT: Thank you. 20 JUDGE SMITH: Return at a quarter until two. 21 (Whereupon, at 12:45 p.m., the hearing was 22 recessed, to resume at 1:45 p.m., this same day, Tuesday, 23 April 18, 1989.) 24 25 4 Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 1
DAINES - CROSS 19543 r~T 1 AEIEBHQQH EEEE1QH
*\ ' ') 2 Whereupon, 3 GUY DAINES 4 having been previously duly sworn, resumed the witness stand 5 herein, and was examined and testified as follows:
6 JUDGE SMITH: Mr. Daines, before I turn you back 7 to the Assistant Attorney General I would like to explore
. 8 one point.
9 That is when Ms. Selleck was examining you she 10 asked you if you believe that more could be done under the 11 plan to identify and have a reliable list of special needs 12 population. 13 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir.
/ 14 JUDGE SMITH: And either through timidity or
)
15 prudenc'e or whatever it was, she didn't follow through on 16 that.
. 17 But just generally speaking, what advice, having 18 looked at the plan the way you have, what advice can you 19 give the Board members, bearing in the mind the special 20 circumstances that prevail here and that is that the local 21 organizations are not cooperating in the planning process?
22 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Sir, I think that -- in l 23 looking at the plan I think one of the things that all of us l l 24 are concerned about is whether or not a plan is 25 implementable. l l Reporting Corporation Heritage [s\-} (202) 628-4888
g I
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L DAINES - CROSS 19544 (' 1 And when-I look at that --
' \,)] _
- 2 JUDGE SMITH: Of course, I'm asking in the area of 3 your basic testimony here, not just as a general planner, 4 because fairness requires that we don't suddenly introduce 5 new ideas.
'6 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir, I understand.
7 What it appears to me is that the plan meets some
, 8 basic requirements when it comes to special needs.
9 But as I mentioned earlier the more -- I learned 10 through experience and I don't ever want the' people in my 11 community to have to go through that again. We ignored 12 certain things that were very obvious; and yet, it's the 13 question, do I believe this or don't I believe it? We 14 chose, well, we' re _ going to concentrate on our list. And we
)
15 concentrated on that list. 16 What we found in any emergency is, that's not the
. 17 key to the response.
18 And I really believe that in the plan that I see 19 you have a response to the people with special needs. But I 20 don't see an understanding of the real problem and the total 21- problem related with special needs.
.22 I really meant that very seriously. It's like 23 picking up a tqck and you will not believe what comes out
- 24. from under that rock when you deal with the special needs 25 population. And it's not just in what we're talking about m
5 Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 1 ________-__________ - _ U
l DAINES - CROSS 19545
'n 1 here. It carries over into sheltering.
' )
i' 2 I can give you an example. There are people out 3 there in our communities right now that are on -- that have
]
4 a special need but it's related to just oxygen. They're 5 carrying a small bottle around with them or they're pushing 6 a small cart with a bottle on it. 7 Well, for those of us who are not impaired in some
, 8 way, we don't think about that. If we go into the home and 9 take those people out of that situation, put them in a 10 congregate care facility and suddenly that person runs out 11 of oxygen. Well no one really thought about this, listen, I 12 didn't realize we had people out there that are on oxygen 13 every day in our communities. And that's true. That is a
( 14 fact. 15 And yet, I was faced with it where we ran out of 16 oxygen. We had 70 shelters open and had an oxygen
. 17 requirement in every shelter for those people that had that 18 special need.
I 19 Since then we have planned to put K tanks in 20 certain shelters so we can respond to that. And I hope I'm 21 clear on this. They are addressing the problem. 22 My feeling is -- 23 JUDGE SMITH: They are? 24 THE WITNESS: (Daines) They are addressing the 25 problem to the degree that, yes, it's in the plan. But I n ( 1 Heritage Reporting Corporation
\- (202) 628-4888
c L 7 DAINES - CROSS 19546 1 don't think it reflects a true understanding of the problem f3 ( i'~'
/
2 or the' total addressing of that issue related to the people 3 with special needs. 4 JUDGE SMITH: Now, in the'Pinellas County, is that 5 Clearwater? (Daines) Yes, sir. 6 THE WITNESS: 7 JUDGE SMITH: And that is an area that has a large
-, 8 group of older people?
9 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir. 10 JUDGE SMITH: So you have probably a greater 11 concern with special needs population. 12 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Sir, I think you'll that - 13 - statistically you will find that the median age here in 14 the United States is going up every year. And that problem
}
15 will be prevalent throughout the United States. 16 JUDGE SMITH: But you have been able to gain
. 17 special insight to special needs because of the special 18 population in Pinellas County.
19 How large is that county? 20 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Sir, it's 280 square 21 miles. 22 JUDGE SMITH: I mean population? 23 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Population? It's rigit 24 now about 830,000. 25 JUDGE SMITH: Could you be more specific, however, i Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 i
j 4 ' 3.' DAINES - CROSS 19547 f/ y l' on: concrete ways that you .believe that the plan can be
#)
2 improved with. respect to special needs population? s 3 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir. 4' I think one thing is, they have got to come to a 5 realization that-the list is not the key to it. The list
that they have is something that they are going to haveLto 6
7 deal with becau5s of requirements, whether it be federal 8, guidelines in some states at state requirements. 9 But rather than just have the list they need'to 10 concentrate on having a valid list. They need to ensure 11 that'that list is in fact a list of people that do require 12 assistance during an evacuation. That's the first thing. 13 Not-just accepting the list but making that a valid list. 14 Secondly, they have to recognize that.they may
)
15 only have on their list, valid or invalid, maybe one in four R16 or one in five of the actual people within their community
, 17 that will need assistance during an evacuation.
18 And because of that we made the decision, and I 19 say that I would hope to never go through that again. We 20 concentrated our efforts on the list. And what absolutely 21 killed us was the people not on our list. Our 911 system 22' took 14,000 calls for assistance during that two day period. 23 JUDGE SMITH: What period was that? 24 THE WITNESS: (Daines) That was from midnight on 25 Friday through noon on Sunday. Beritage Repor^.ing Corporation
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- DAINES - CROSS 19548 1 JUDGE SMITH: What disaster was that?
2' THE WITNESS: (Daines) Sir, this was a hurricane 3 threat. But they took 14,000 calls requesting assistance. 4 And what we ended up being faced with is the people that 5 . were not on our list called every agency that they could. 6 They would call inw enforcement, fire. They would call 7 ambulance companies. They would call EOCs, the emergency
, 8 operation centers. And everybody would respond to it. And 9 they would get there and whoever the first one there picked 10 them up and they were gone.
11- Our ambulance companies had almost 300 12 cancellations where they arrived at a location from a call 13 for assistance and the people weren't there anymore. 14 Now that's dealing with the people that weren't on 15 your list. 16 JUDGE SMITH: 'Now, how is that related to the list
. 17 being -- excuse me. You've answered the question I was 18 asking.
19 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir. 20 They tie together. And this is why I'n saying, 21 you must recognize the deficiencies that you have in your 22 list and concentrate on making that a valid list, make an 23 effort and resources to go pick those people up. i l 24- To give you a little more insight into the j n 25 problem, when you don't have a valid list, we had 3,000 Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
"6,, . If 7
DAINES - CROSS 19549
/~~^ 1 people on our list.--
2 JUDGE SMITH: When you're saying " valid," do you 3 use the term " valid" to mean both complete and accurate? 4 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir. I mean complete 5 and the people that actually'need assistance. 6 We had communities that went out and the way our 7 system ran is, we provided the list that we collected at
, 8 county level . down to -the individual communities for 9 response.
10 So the fire, the ambulance companies and the l 11 police provided that joint response. It was the normal 12 response within the community. We provided the list to the 13 city. [ ] 14 We had cities that when they went out to pick , k.J 15 those people up that on an average only about 30 percent of 16 those people were there.
, 17 I can remember one city, the City of South 18 Pasadena had 80 people in one mobile home park on their 19 special needs list. When they arrived there with buses to 20 pick them up all 80 were already gone. And it was an 21 ' indication to us that these people had actually just used us 22 as a last resort on getting out. And we expended resources 23 to go get them. And then they took the first advantage of 24 anything they could to get out of the area.
25 Now, conversely we had another city, St. ( Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 ( l l L - _ _ __ __ _
. .I DAINES - CROSS 19550
,r' 1 Petersburg Beach that over 90 percent of the people that l
2 were on their list were there waiting to be picked up. l 3 After the emergency when I did the critique, I 4 tried to find out what really occurred in this special needs 5 problem. What I found was, the only difference I could t. L . 6 determine was that in the City of St. Petersburg Beach they 7 went out and interviewed, personal interview in the home
, 8 every individual on their list. And in turn their people 9 were there waiting for them to pick them up.
l 10 Now, in addition to that, they estimated that they 11 picked up 250 people off of their list that were there 12 waiting for them and it was over 90 percent of the people
-13 that were on their registered list.
14 They provided assistance to 300 people that { 15 w .en't on their list. So they had more people that called 16 in that needed assistance that were actually on their list, 17 and they did have a valid list. 18 The only difference I could see when going out and 19 conducting interviews with the fire people after the fact 20 was that they had a very good program of establishing 21 personal interviews with those people. And they would sit 22 down and talk to them and say, well, can't your neighbor 23 help you or will your neighbor help you. And if they said,
]
24 no, they won't, the fireman would walk next door and say, 25 has anyone talked to you about helping this individual in an Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
c. DAINES - CROSS 19551
,S.
- 1 emergency. So they ensured that the people on their list
- ('6" l 2 really needed help.
3 JUDGE SMITH: That's very good advice I believe. 4 But that takes care of one side of the problem. 5 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir.
- 6. JUDGE SMITH: And that is, the validity -- I mean, 7 that~the people really do need help.
.; 8 But given the-special circumstances here, do you 9 have any advice on how they can make sure their list is 10 complete? This is the problem.
11 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir. 12 We have continually worked on this list. 13' JUDGE SMITH: Bear in mind, in this area at this (~') 14 time that the communities, the local governments, are not v 15 participating, they're not helping. And apparently, from 16 the testimony we have received here, the local relief
.. 17 organizations and health care organizations are not 18 participating either.
l-19 So did you have any particular insight, given that i 20 problem, that would be helpful? 21 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Sir, I think that an 22 outside organization could still assist in ensuring that a 23 list is a valid verified list. I think the key is the 24 individual contact. 25 JUDGE SMITH: Complete though. Complete. I L s Heritage Reporting Corporation
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L. . DAINES - CROSS 19552
. r"N - l' THE WITNESS: (Daines) Complete?
2- JUDGE SMITH: That's the problem. 3 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir. It's a problem. 4 We have done everything that we can. Let me go 5' back to 1979 -- 1 6 JUDGE SMITH: Let me explain something further.
.7 We have an opportunity here, the Applicants are in a
,- 8 position here that if the Board wants to direct some type of 9 improvement, whether we have the legal authority to do it or 10 not, they're likely to accept it. So you have an 11 opportunity right here.
I 12 You have an. opportunity to recommend to the Board 13 improvements that we could recommend or impose upon them [^\
^ %.)
14 that would make a material improvement in the public health 15 and safety. 16 And one of the things is, about the completeness
. 17 of the list. And then the validation inter on is also very 18 important.
19 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Sir, I think I would have 20 to go back to the surveys that were done and the experience 21 in that voluntary registration will only provide you minimal 22 results. 23 And the key to that is to continue to work on a 24 list and the minimal results that you have through that of 25 ensuring that if you have 3,000 people on your list, you l 1 j ) Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 l l l-- - - - _ _ - - - - _ _ .
DAINES - CROSS 19553
/~N 1 want to make sure that all 3,000 people need assistance.
Lk T 2 JUDGE. SMITH: Right. That's the need, but not' l> 3 completeness. 4 THE WITNESS: (Daines) That's right, sir. 5 JUDGE SMITH: Now, reflect back on developing your i
- 6. own list. Think'of the'different ways that you have added 7 to it.
... 8 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir.
9 JUDGE SMITH: I mean, not validated in a sense you d 10 make sure that they all needed help. But think of the 11 different ways that you added to your list to make sure that 12 all those who do need help are included? Can you think of 13- anything? I \ 14 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir. U; 15 I went out and we contacted such agencies as 16' Office for the Aging.
, 17 JUDGE SMITH: The what?
.18 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Office for the Aging.
19 JUDGE SMITH: It's a state office? 20 THE WITNESS: (Daines) I'm sure there's a similar 21 organization here in Massachusetts. 22 JUDGE SMITH: That's a state office. 23 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir. And usually 24 they're regional level, also, or down a county level. 25 We also contacted such agencies to provide any Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 i
.i........ - -
DAINES - CROSS 19554 1 type of service to the elderly or people that are confined 2 to their homes. 3 JUDGE SMITH: Like oxygen suppliers? 4 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir. 5 JUDGE SMITH: Commercial companies? b . 6 THE WITNESS: (Dcines) Meals on Wheels. 7 JUDGE SMITH: Meals on Wheels?
, 8 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir.
9 The problem we had with that was, that unless 10 there's an intensive program that goes along with that to 11 explain the concept on what you're trying to do, what we 12 would receive back would be, they would register everybody 13 that they provided a service to. 14 So you would end up building your list up. So 15 that's how we ended up going to 3,000. 16 JUDGE SMITH: Well, you would have to guard
. 17 against repetition?
18 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir. We would have 19 to guard against repetition. 20 We would also -- again, you would have to go back, 21 once you built that list up of going back And ensuring that 22 only the people on the list needed assistance. Because 23 those agencies will have a tendency not to sit down and sort 24 this out for you. They' re going to just give you everything 25 and let you sort it out. Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
..I DAINES - CROSS 19555
,r ~ . 1 So what we would receive back is a registration
'~ '
-2 for everybody that they provided a service to. And again, 3 that put us in the same position. A large number of names, l 4 but out of that large number of names only a small number or 5 a smaller percentage that really needs assistance.
6 You could end up, sir, with a large number of 1
,. 7 names and not even touch the real people'within your
! ', 8 community that need assistance, if you're not careful. 9 JUDGE SMITH: How about mentally and emotionally 10 impaired people; is that a special problem that you dealt 11 with? 12 THE WITNESS: (Daines) No, sir. 13 We have not found that that was separate -- a 14 separate proclem from just those people with special needs. [~ v { 15 JUDGE SMITH: That's a part of the aged 16 population, too, that have that same problem.
.. 17 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir.
18 I think another thing, when we interview the 19 people we ask, it appears like questions that are more 20 oriented for the response organization to ensure that the i 21 proper type of response is given. 22 As an example, if you take a mailer and call ] I 23 someone and you don't ask the question, do you live on the i i 24 fifth floor of a building or on the second floor, there's a l 25 tremendous difference in the type of response that you may i A (' j- Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
f
,i DAINES - CROSS- 19556 i rN 1 provide to that individual. And I think that's another '
- V -
- 2. thing that you must do when you're looking at the response 3 to that information you receive back. Is it necessary to
[ 4 provide an EMT or paramedic along with that response to that 5 individual. 6 Is it necessary to provide any special equipment
'7 or do they have any special equipment that must go with them 7 8 when they leave?
9 We try and do that through our phone calls and our 10 interviews, so it helps us on that response side. 11 JUDGE SMITH: Anything else you can think of to I j 12 develop a completeness? 13 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Sir, I'm just glad you're
.; 14 interested in the problem, because it is st 'h a tremendous.
15 problem. 16 JUDGE SMITH: But we're not going to implement it.
. 17 THE WITNESS: (Daines) ' .e s , sir. I'm learning 18 every day. And all I can tell you is what we have learned.
19 And the things that I'm trying to pass on to you 20 we have learned through experience. I think eventually 21 you're going to get involved on the shelter side on these 22 people because tl.at some person that has and can live in an 23 environment in their home, when you put them in a congregate 24 care facility you're going to be surprised how quickly their 25 condition deteriorates. Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
L DAINES - CROSS 19557
~S 1 You will find that if you take someone and put
?(d 2 them on a non-air-conditioned bus and this emergency occurs 3 in the middle of the summer how quickly that type person, 4 it's a special needs type person, they're condition is going 5 to deteriorate while you're moving them around.
6 We have problems with -- we evacuated 19 nursing 7 homes, as an exanple, and three hospitals in the middle of
.- 8 this evacuation. We learned many, many things concerning 9 just handling that type person. We learned that -- say, a 10 transit-bus may be easier to load a person that's elderly, 11 that has some type of special need because they can't even 1:2 get their leg up high enough to get on a school bus. Just 13 because they're elderly.
() 14 15 We had people in shelters that couldn't lie down that we would have to put backboards behind them to actually 16 put them on the ground and to raise them back up. Purely
. 17 because these people on an every day basis can live in their 18 little apartment, in their home. But you take them and put 19 them in an emergency situation and the adrenalin gets gcing 20 and suddenly they become a-medical problem. And it's not 21 just one or two. Suddenly you have a shelter with people in
.22 it that -- like I read in here where it says, bring your <
23 medicine. I had to have a doctor sitting in the operations , i 24 center writing prescriptions to shelters because it's nice 25 to put it on paper and say, bring your medicine, But when i
*( r) Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
l J: l l DAINES - CROSS 19558 1 r~5 1~ the emergency occurs people walk out the door without their
]
f 1
> b~ 2 medicine.
3 Then the next question is, how are you going to i 4 get medicine to them in that congregate care facility? It 5 can only be written by a physician. 6 And it's interesting that a lot of people don't 7 know what their medication is. When they come up to you and
, 8 say, I've got to have my medication, I left it in the EPZ.
9 And they say, well, what is it? And they say, well, I take 10 a little red pill in the morning and at noon I take a little 11 yellow pill. And suddenly you have a very serious problem 12 because their life could be at risk over just that aspect of 13 it. lT 14 Again, as I said, I have gotten very interested in O 15 this problem and we have tried to address everything we can 16 find.
. 17 JUDGE SMITH: And of course you've had the 18 unwelcome benefit of actual emergencies.
19 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir. 20 JUDGE SMITH: Is there a nrtional a organization or 21 regional organization that exists for the purpose of 22 coepiling experiences, lessons learned from these
- 23 emergencies?
04 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Sir, would you say your 25 1 sot part again, please. D C) " ie 9- " e ru=9 c-r"- i (202) 628-4888 l
I ' j DAINES - CROSS 19559 gr^g- 1 JUDGE SMITH:- Well, other than in your memory and o 0'- 2' your mind, where are the lessons learned from the various 3 emergencies throughout the country? Where is that 4 information simulated and disseminated and organized? Is 5 there any particular resource for that type of information, 6 the experience? 7 THE WITNESS: (Daines) No , sir.
. 8 What you will normally find is it's done through 9 . national type conferences. FEMA, as far as I know, does not 10 collect the lessons learned, the critiques from different 11 emergencies as.far as issues such as this and then put them 12 out across the country.
13 And I think that is a problem, also. Because what 14 it causes is everyone continually reinvents a wheel.
)
15 EXAMINATION BY JUDGE McCOLLOM 16 JUDGE McCOLLOM: Early in yot.. testimony you
, 17 indicated that at least the health organization at the state 18 level was not of any significant help to you as a local 19 county emergency operation whenever you went into an 20 emergency.
21 Are there other units of the state government that
- 22. did' provide a kind of service and a kind of help that did 23 help your emergency situation? )
I 24 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir. d
'25 The way Florida is organized you have the State Beritage Reporting Corporation j (202) 628-4888
DAINES - CROSS 19560 1 Department of Health and Rehabilitative Services. The local
.7 ;
d 2 arm of that is the Public Health Department. And we work 3 very closely with our Public Health Department at the local i 1 4 level and they do assist us during emergencies. And a l l 5 director of that Public Health Department actually sits as a l 6 desk officer in the emergency operation center, and it's his 7 job to monitor the evacuation of all medical facilities and
, 8 to ensure that transportation is provided to those 9 facilities. He becomes the primary key medical officer 10 during any major emergency.
11 JUDGE McCOLLOM: Does he relate then back to a 12 state center? 13 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Sir, he has access to the 14 state emergency operation center in Tallahassee through the f\s) 15 normal phone system. I mean, he can pick up and talk to 16 their liaison officer at the State EOC.
, 17 JUDGE McCOLLOM: And if it were a hurricane it 18 would cover a large area. But I want to relate to one area 19 which it seems to me comes closer to the concentrated kind 20 of thing that would happen in the case of a radiological 21 release and that was the Jones Chemical fire that you )
22 relayed in your ste.tement of qualifications. 23 THE WITNESS: (Dainos) Yes, sir. 24 JUDGE McCOLLOM: Would you describe that just l 25 briefly and then tell how your evacuation plan worked there ] I
<~T Heritage Reporting Corporation f
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L l j.' DAINES - CROSS 19561 Er~y 1 and what you were required to do, and particularly with RQ
- 2 respect to;those with special needs?
1, 3 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Sir, in this case it was a 4 localized incident. Even though 10,000 people were 5- evacuated it was all within one jurisdiction, the City of lg - f 6 St. Petersburg which is a city of 250,000. I 7 From county level.we provided support to that l i
, 8 incident site. I was in charge of that support. The city 9 evacuated people. They coordinated through me their shelter 10 response, transportation aspects that we provided from the
'11 county plan to that city to respond to that incident.
12 What's interesting, we found that on the special 13' needs side many of the same problems that occurred in the () 14 it large scale disaster occurred in, just like this small micro-emergency where we only had three or four shelters 16 opened, we ended up with the same problems related to the
.. 17 people with special needs that we had in the large 18 emergency.
19 But in that incident, an area was evacuated around 20 the fire. It was a chemical fire, chlorine, and they 21 evacuated, if I remember, a one mile zone around that 22 chemical fire. And we provided shelt ering. He provided 23 buses to move the people. And then we provided any 24 additional support provided by the incident commander who 25 was the fire chief from the City of St. Petersburg. () Heritate Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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js '1. JUDGE McCOLLOM: One of the things that.you did -* h 2 discuss andfit may haveLhappened in both places., but in 3 terms of Elena Hurricane was the, in essence, the redundancy L, 4 of responses to people where there are several different 5 organizations. 6 THE WITNESS: (Daines) 'Yes, sir.
- 7 JUDGE McCOLLOM: Have you done something to try to i: 8 design that out.of a next time?
'i.
9 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir. 10 We-have looked'at several different alternatives.
.11 What.we're'looking at now is a combination of a phone line 12 and a 911 system, which the people are used to.using. And 131 allowing them to call in,on a 911 system as one way to
() '14 15 achieve assistance. And secondly, to put out on television a phone
'16 number and on radio, whatever, a phone number to call. And
.- 17 'we're putting in computer terminal links that sit' right next 18 to the people that answer the questions. And we will have 19 then someone capable of inserting that particular request 20 for' assistance directly into the dispatched system and it 21 will go on a priority basis on a list of calls.
, ,' i 22 And us found that we've had to prioritize calls in 23 a major emergency because they build up faster than you can 12 4 dispatch to those calls. And we will incert it that way and 25 through the 911.
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 = _ - _ _ - - - _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ - _ _ _ _ _ _ _ - _ _ _ _ . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ -- _-__ _ _ _ _ _ - _ _ _ -
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,r's 1 So we're trying to address it from two sides.
*-]
N 2 One, a separate phone number and recognizing the fact that 3 people will automatically -- they'll call 911 for help. 4 But we're also planning on using a separate phone 5 number and then making a link into that 911 system through f' 6 our CADS computer, our computer aided dispatch system, that 7 would go on and input that call and stake it up for
, 8 assistance to be provided.
9 Separate from that we're trying to set aside 10 resources to respond to that. 11 JUDGE McCOLLOM: All right. But now you have i 12 several resources. All those resources then are going to be 13 ' programmed in so that you don't have three people going out ( 14 to the same address? 15 THE WITNESS: (Daines) We're hoping that that 16 will occur. We're hoping that that will occur through --
. 17 our cities also have access to that same computer system 18 that we do.
19 JUDGE McCOLLOM: And then the last thing that I 20 wondered about, you mentioned several different kinds of 21 needs: the oxygen tank and the like. Other than just, l l 22 quote, " evacuation," whether it be an ambulance where the 23 person has to be placed in an ambulance or a bus, what is 24- your experience in gathering that kind of information in 25 your list? have you been able to identify people who know ( . Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 l
DAINES - CROSS 19564 l
, r's li that in the list preparation or do you arrive at the place
-2 and find out?
3 THE WITNESS: (Daines) No, sir. 4 When we make our initial phone call to the person 5 we ask questions that will enable us to fill out a little 6 block that says: a wheelchair lift is necessary; they can 7 move by bus; or they require an ambulance.
, 8 .So we do that initially. And then we try to 9 verify that through that personal visits.
10 JUDGE McCOLLOM: The question was asked a while 11 ago about emotionally disturbed people. Is there anything l L 12 like that that you run into in other areas besides emotional 13 or other than evacuation? 14 THE WITNESS: (Daines) No , sir.
)
15 The only thing -- and again, I can caution, 16 because you do have some nursing homes evacuated. We
, 17 evacuated 19 nursing homes. I did not, as an emergency 18 planner, know that there are certain nursing homes that have 19 psychiatric licenses. And in my plan I evacuated, not 20 knowing this, a nurs3ng home with a psychiatric license into 21 a geriatric nursing home and it created major problems.
22 They have people streaking up and down the hallways. They 23 were zipping urinals off the walls and everything and just 24 created some major problems, 25 But the point is that as an emergency planner you A Reporting Corporation Q Heritage (202) 628-4888 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ - - _ _ - - - . - - - - _ _ - _ _ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - _ -- - - -- - m
DAINES - CROSS 19565 l I 1 have to recognize things like that. In this case I didn't
.> f w\
.i j*
2 and it did create problems. ; i 1 3 JUDGE McCOLLOM: Thank you. 4 EXAMINATION BY JUDGE COLE 5 JUDGE COLE: Mr. Daines, you made an effort to 6 determine the reasore why in one population location a lot 7 of the people that had signed up for service just had
, 8 already evacuated by the time the transportation service or 9 whatever service was' required, was provided. And in other 10 communities you had a very high response, people were 11 waiting.
12 Did you make any assessment of how the needs of 13 the people that had already evacuated were met? How were ['T L. 14 they transported? You said they weren't there when the 15 services got there; how did they get out? 16 THE WITNESS: (Daines) No, sir.
., 17 We did not go back and survey that. We do know 18 that a survey was conducted of those people that were in 19 shelter and that survey indicated that five percent of the 20 people in shelter got there by bus or that indicated they 21 had some type of an assistance requirement.
22 But this whole area, such a grey area because 23 we're dealing with people that don't want us to know 24 anything about them. And that's part of the problem. They 25 don't want you to know they're out there. O) t
\
Heritage Reporting (202) 628-4888 Corporation i
DAINES - CROSS 19566 r'N 1 We even went through the thing that maybe we'll (
' /
1 2 put a little sign on their door like a little circle that 3 will indicate that that person will need evacuation 4 assistance. And right away people said, well, heck, people 5 are going to walk down the street and go in and rob them. 6 So they threw that out immediately. 7 But you're dealing with a group of people that may
. 8 be impaired and they don't want people to know that. I 9 think that is part of what you have to accept, also.
10 JUDGE COLE: Well, you have indicated that the [ 11 people on the list for -- list requesting service are only 12 the tip of the iceberg. 13 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir. fs 14 JUDGE COLE: And with reference to your current (%j) 15 list in Pinellas County you indicated you had 1300 people on 16 that list and you think it's a pretty good list?
. 17 THE WITNESS: (Daines) No, sir.
18 What I'm hoping is that 1300 needs assistance. I 19 probably have 12 to 15,000 people that aren't on my list 20 that will need assistance. And the same conversely applies 21 up here where you have a number on a list and recognize that 22 you also have a number, whatever that may be. An additional 23 three people for every one that might be on your list that's 24 out there, that will need assistancs during an evecuation 1 25 and you're not going to know about it until the emergency
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.- 2 JUDGE COLE: So your current list of 1300 is about 3 somewhere between 1 and-2 per thousand of your county 1
4 ~ population. And you're saying that the list is three to 5 four times that. So we're talking six people per thousand. l *
-6 Is that a good estimate for you?
7 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir, I would think.
., 8 JUDGE COLE: Now, what's your basis for that 9 number?
- 1 10' THE PITNESS: (Daines) You mean where I'm getting 11 1 basically the 12 to 15,000 from? 1 12 JUDGE COLE: Yes.
13 THE WITNESS: (Daines) That was done through a
-['N - 14 survey. That is what I was mentioning earlier in my 15 testimony that we did. We had the figure but we really,
.16 psychologically for some reason, didn't accept that, that 17 there were that many people out there that would need 18 assistance.
19 What the survey indicated, sir, was 4.3 percent of 20 'our evacuating population would require assistance to leave 21 theic homes. 22 JUDGE COLE: Well, that's a lot bigger than four 23 per 1,000, sir? 24 THE WITNESS: (Daines) 4.3 percent? 25 JUDGE COLE: Yes. That's four out of every () Heritage Reporting (202) 628-4888 Corporation l l t
L. # DAINES - CROSS 19568
. fy 1 hundred. The figure that you have in your county is now .15
.%.,J .
2 percent. . 3 THE t'. NESS: (Daines) Sir, statistically -- I'm 4 not good with statistics when you're six from 1,000. I can 5 tell you what the figures are, but I haven't computed it out ll ' 6 on statistics. l 7 I do know what the original survey indicated which
, 8 was 4.3 percent of our evacuating population, indicated that 9 they would need assistence during an evacuation to leave 10 their homes. Of that number we, at that time, only achieved 11 on our list 3,000. So that would work out, we probably 12 ' tracked out of that possibly one in four actually ended up 13 on our. list.
14 JUDGE COLE: The numbers don't coincide, Mr. 15 Daines. 16 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Sir, are you basing it on 17 a total county population? 18 JUDGE COLE: Well, that's what I thought we were 19 -talking about. 20 THE WITNESS: (Daines) No, sir. On the 21 evacuating populction. 22 JUDGE COLE: So in Elena you evacuated almost half 23 a county, that's 400,000 people? 24 THE WITNESS: (Dainas) Yes, sir.
. i 25 The 4.3 percent was based upon the evacuating
/~
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DAINES - CROSS 19569 l f~< 1 population that was also done through a survey which worked I (
- 2 out at, I think, 350,000 people at that time was our 3 maximum.
1 4 JUDGE COLE: So the number on your list is only a 5 small fraction of that? 6 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir.
.7 JUDGE McCOLLOM: Before you leave that.
, 8 Would you tell us the survey by which you got 9 these 13,000 identified? What was ' mt ?
10 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes. 11 Sir, it was a survey completed in 1980 by a firm, 12 I think Lochner and Associates. It was done a,s part of 13 comprehensive hurricane evacuation planning which was at
., 14 that time to be implemented throughout the United States.
. 15 We were the first large regional type area that was involved 16 in that type planning.
17 They came in and did a behavior survey to 18 determine some of the -- let's say -- technical information 19 that would assist the emergency planners in the development 20 of the'ir plans. 21 As an example, in addition to the behavioral 22 analysis which were used to assist us in deciding how many 23 people would go to shelter; how many people would use the 24 road system in leaving the county. They also did the 25 transportation modeling that went along with it. () Heritage Reporting (202) 628-4888 Corporation
I" DAINES - CROSS 19570 [ And that 1 ,So'that was all done at one' time.
~
?--) .
i 2 information was then provided to the. emergency planners 3 within the county. So you received technical information 4 that'you could incorporate into your emergency plans. 5- JUDGE McCOLLOM: Now the one thing.that I would
,' 6l like.to find out is, what kind of survey caused the number 7 of 13,000 to be identified, though?
., 8 What was the mechanism by which they identified
,9 it? Was it a statistical study?
10 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir. 11 It was from.19P0 and I'm not the one that did the l
- 12. survey. I would think it was by phone call and interviews.
13 JUDGE McCOLLOM: And then statistically 14 extrapolated to the full population? (}. 15 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir. 16 JUDGE COLE: Well, I guess I can't leave without
- 17. getting it straightened out, Mr. Daines.
18 13,000 people were identified as needing 19 assistance of the evacuating population of 400,000? 20 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Sir, when you say 21 identified, you're only identifying 4.3 percent and 22 multiplying it out and we came out with an estimate of that 23 many people who were out there. Not identified. Only a 24 number that was interpola'ed c from a percentage developed 25 t!. rough the survey.
'7n
() Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 1 1
r [ :- L DAINES - CROSS 19571 rw.c 1 We did not actually identify that many names, only I -f t-L -4 \ ) l 2 a number. 3 JUDGE COLE: So what is the prime figure, is it 4 'four percent or something like that of whatever the number 5 is, something like -- 6 THE WITNESS: (Daines) It was 4.3 percent, sir. 7 JUDGE COLE: So, one out of every.25 is going to 6 8 need special assistance. Is that a realistic number in your 9 view based upon your experience, one out of every 25? 10 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Probably at least, sir, 11 one out of 25. 12 JUDGE COLE: Okay. 13 '(The Board confers.) () 14 15 JUDGE COLE: 4.3/4.2 percent? Sir, in determining this figure, l 16 THE WITNESS: (Daines). Yes, sir.
.- 17 JUDGE COLE: What was the population that was 18 sampled there and how big was the sample, do you know?
19 Whom did they interview to determine these 20 numbers? j 21 THE WITNESS: (Caines) No, sir. I'm sorry, I 22 real]y can't answer that. I was a recipient of the final i t . 23 information, not the individual details. 24 JUDGE COLE: But do you know if they happen -- if 1 25 they tried to get a -- l t Iieritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 j
T DAINES CROSS 19572 1 THE WITNESS: (Jaines) Yes, sir. > j}s . a 2 JUDGE COLE: -- statistical' sample. 3 THE WITNESS: (Daines)' It was done utilizing, 4 let's'say,1the best techniques of sampling at that time. 5 .TUDGE COLE. Now, would you expect a figure like
6 this 4.2 or 4.3 percent that you found in your county in 7 Florida to be comparable in an area around the Seabrook
, 8 Power Plant?
l 9 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Sir, if I look at -- I 10 understand that transportation needs were estimated about L 11 five percent in'this area. Our transportation needs were i 12 estimated the same, at five percent. 13 If in fact it's true there, it may also be true on ( j' 14 that'other number. I can't say that for sure, though. 15 But I notice in a survey that was done up here it 16 was indicated that there were five percent of the people 17 might.need transportation. And our survey indicated just 18 about the same exact number. 19 JUDGE SMITH: Now tell me more about these people, 20 though? This 4.3 compared to five percent up here, they 21 need -- they do not have transportation of their own. 22 THE WITNESS: (Daines) No, sir. 23 The way the survey indicated, five percent of our 24 population, our evacuating population would need some type 25 of transportation. (202) 628-4888 { i
t-l- DAINES'- CROSS 19573 L r~3 1 JUDGE SMITH: That's your evacuating population. 2 THE WITNESS: (Dainea) Yes, sir. 3 JUDGE SMITH: Why do you use that term 4 " evacuating?" 5 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Well, sir, they didn't' 6 survey the entire county. What they surveyed was those 7 people that live within the evacuation zone.
,. 8 JUDGE SMITH: Oh, okay. That's the population who 9 are subject to evacuation?
10 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir. 11 JUDGE SMITH: Now what is it that they need? 12 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Then 4.3 percent of those 13 people surveyed, not of the five percent, 4.3 percent 14- indicated that they would need some type of assistance. (} 15 Now, the survey did not go into that type of
- 16. assistance or anything.
. 17 JUDGE SMITH: That's exactly my point.
18 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir. 19 JUDGE SMITH: Did the survey establish whether 20 they were self-sufficient as compared to having no 21 transportation or that they had no other source of 22 transportation such as a family member, neighbor, or that 23 type of approach? 24 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Sir, for those that had a 9 25 method of leaving they did indicate how they were going to I Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
i DAINES - CROSS 19574 f 1 get out, through a family member. i 2 JUDGE SMITH: And they would.not be included in 3 .the 4.37 4- THE WITNESS: (Daines)- That's correct. 5 JUDGd SMITH: So you end up with, Judge Cole says, 6 one out of 25 that you believe. That is an intuitively I 7 very, very high number. 8 JUDGE COLE: Thank you. j 9 1 : ;' 10 11 12 13 14 15 ! 16
, 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
l . h ^ .l . l-DAINES - REDIRECT 19575 f ~q 1 MS. GREER: Ms. Talbot is going to do the redirect l
"\ l 2 on this one.
l 3 MS. TALBOT: Thanks. 4 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
-5 BY MS. TALBOT:
6 Q Mr. Daines, do you prefer me to call you Mr. 7 Daines or Colonel Daines?
. 8 We should have gotten that straight when we first 9 met.
10 A (Daines) Ma' am? 11 Q Do you want to be called Mr. Daines or Colonel 12 Daines? 13- A (Daines) Mister. f"' L 14 Q Okay. I just have a couple of points of 15 clarification I want to touch on.
. :L 6 Earlier during Ms. Selleck's cross-examination,
. 17 .she mentioned that 380 state and regional services and 18 groups had been sent information of some sort from the 19 response organization. And you indicated that it was 20 appropriate to do that.
21 I was wondering if you could just expound on that 22 a little bit as to the relevance that sending that kind of 23 information has on a state level. 24 A (Daines) What, on sending the information out to 25 the different agencies or -- Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
DAINES - REDIRECT 19576
/N 1 Q All over the entire state.
2 A (Daines) Well, I really don't know if that's 3 appropriate in that you're trying to concentrate on people 4 in the local area that's going to evacuate. And I think you 5 will get a better response concentrating your efforts there 6 than on a statewide basis. 7 Q Okay, I just wanted to be clear on that.
, 8 Also, you were asked whether you were aware that 9 guidance requires the response organization to do a survey 10 which they do by way of mail-back card. And you indicated 11 that you were aware of this.
12 The Judge picked up later on that issue and asked 13 you how you thought a sur--9y could be done better. And I t 14 was wondering if you could just, again for clarity sake, (O 15 answer this question related to that. 16 You indicated in your answer to the Judge that one
, 17 way to make the survey better was to have one-on-one 18 interface between the response organization individual -- in 19 the example that you gave it was a fireman -- and the 20 particular person that asserted a need for some sort of l 21 special assistance.
22 My question is, could a nongovernmental entity 23 also conduct such interviews with the same success rate, in 24 your opinion? 25 A (Daines) Yes, I would think so. I think there is 7-s () Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 l l
DAINES - REDIRECT 19577 Ll, l'- one2 thing that.you have. If it's a response agency and it's . t V 2- a local response agency, you-have.a feeling of trust already l 3; ' built up. But I see no reason why you couldn't'do the same 4 thing with another agency as-long as they, in turn, build up 5 that: feeling of trust also. I think that's -- on'the fire-6 side,.that's good for.them going in. They have that 7 capability.
.,- 8 Q So in other words, am I correct in assuming that 9 these personal interviews that are geared to the individual 10 'needs~ assessment'would ensure that prior efforts would 11- perhaps not be exercises in futility?
12 'A (Daines) Repeat that, please. 13 Q It was sort of an abstract question. I'll reframe 14 the whole question.. 15 Am I correct then in my understanding that it is L 16 these personal one-to-one interviews that are specifically 1
- 17 geared to assessing individual needs, that that is what 18' ensures'the other steps, i.e., sending out information, g 19 sending out response cards or whatever, that ensures those L
20 efforts from becoming rather futile? 21 A (Daines) If I understand the question, I'm having
'22 a very difficult time understanding the way you are phrasing 23 that of why it's futile.
24 Q Then don't answer it if you don't understand it. l 1 25 It's me. I'm new at this. We'll just go on. Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
~ .p y
DAINES - REDIRECT 19578 1 (Counsel. confer.)
;}Q '
O- -
- 2. MS. TALBOT: I've had help, so.let me rephrase
- 3~ 'that.
4 BY MS. TALBOT: 5, Q' In other words, you think that the one-on-one !" 6 contact is an' appropriate factor in' helping to develop an'
. 7, adequate list; accurate list, rather?
l, 8 A (Daines) Yes, I.do. 1 9 Q- Okay. if. 1 10 A (Daines) It appears that that is the best method 11 that I have run into so far. 12 Q Does this information that's gathered at'those 13 interviews, is that ever given to the person that actually 14 drives the vehicle, in your experience, to pick ~up those 15 special needs person?. 16 A (Daines) What we are trying to do with the l
.. 17' information is to computerize it, make it available down at 18 the local level,Lthe response agency level. That when the 19 emergency occurs, they can go into the computer base. They 20 can withdrawal their portion of the list, either as a 21 complete list or an individual sheets, and if necessary, 22 that could be done where they c.ould rip that off, provide it I
23 to the response driver, if necessary, to go out. J 24 Q. So in other words, ideally there would be more
~'
25 information available than just the type of vehicle that Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
t I,;.: DAINES - REDIRECT 19579
- b. would be dispatched?
i fy .1 2 'A (Daines) Yes. 3; JUDGE' SMITH: Could I interpose a question at this i I. 4- . point? 5 Do.you do anything to relieve the concern that the
"' 6 person providing the information, that that information will 7 get into wrong hands? Did you ensure them of
, 8 confidentiality?
o '9 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir, and that is a-li ' 10 problem. 11 JUDGE SMITH: Do you think that's -- 12 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir. 13 JUDGE SMITH: -- it's important to assure them of 14 conf..dentiality? ( 15 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir. 16 JUDGE SMITH: Is it a problem preserving that
, 17 confidentiality?
18 THE WITNESS: (Daines) I would think it would be, 19 sir, in some cases. It depends on where that information is 20 put. We' re putting it into a computer that we' re the only ) i 21 ones that access to it, and that information is maintained 22 there. But I would think that that is a major concern to 23 the individual. 24 Sir, that brings up c point that you had mentioned l 4 25 earlier on working with other agencies. I have run into Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
b q. DAINES - REDIRECT '19580 J *s n. l' problems where other agencies have refused to give us j ! b- ' 2 information on the emergency management side because of the 3 Privacy Act concerning these individuals. ; I 4 BY MS. TALBOT: 1 5 Q Mr. Daines, Ms. Chan made a point earlier where 1 she said "more is not always better". I just wanted to go j 6-7 back to that and clarify it a little bit.
, 8 In your experience, it's become apparent to me 9 listening to you that a 4.3 to 5.0 figure is an appropriate 10 planning basis for assisting special needs; is that correct?
11 A (Daines) That's what we've used, and it appears 12 like that's pretty valid in a lot of counties that I've 13 talked to also, different counties. 14 Q And that would include both identified and ( 15- nonidentified special needs? 16 A (Daines) Yes.
. 17 0 Okay. And also, in listening to your testimony 18 today when you were responding to the Judge's question in 19 particular about your experience in St. Petersburg Beach, is 20 it?
21 A (Daines) St. Petersburg Beach. 22 0 Where they had the 90 percent success rate, if you 23 will, where 90 percent of the people who pre-identified were 24 on the list. 25 Just in terms of the "more is not always better"
'( Heritage Reporting (202) 628-4888 Corporation
DAINES - REDIRECT 19581 (^g 1 statement, . would you agree that, depending on the nature and l a j . L' 2 method of the initial survey, the information that's 3 initially: garnered can vary to a great degree as to 4- ' accuracy, depending on the type of questions that are asked 5 in the type of information that is elicited?
- 6 A (Daines) Oh, yes, I think that's true, especially-1 7 if it's a mail in. Our system is a little different in that
., 8 we don't put out a mail in. We put out a phone number and 9 they call in, and we take a long series of questions to fill
- 1 10 out the form initially. And then that's followed'up by a 11 second phone call, and hopefully then a visit to their home.
12 Q And given your experience in St. Petersburg Beach, 13 I take it you would agree that it is possible, however, to () 14 15 get a relatively high number of respondents, again given the nature of the survey? 16 A (Daines) Yes, you can get a high number of
,, 17 respondents. And it's based upon your effort that you put 18 into it.
19 Q Okay, I just have a few final points here. 20 You answered earlier something to the effect that 21 "a threat is a threat". In other words, that there was no 22 distinguishing between a nuclear threat and, for example, an 23 environmental threat like a hurricane, 24 Am I correct in understanding that you meant that J 25 in the context of the scope of your testimony? In other m Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 D 1
k.., . k-- E DAINES - REDIRECT 19582' J( . 1 words,.that people will self-identify or-respond to a survey b a 2 at about the same rate regardless of the nature of the 3 threat? And that you did not mean that statement in the 4 context of how people would actually respond in an 5 emergency? 6 A (Daines) Yes. When I answ(red the question, I j 7 wasn't thinking of the emergency situation. But we run into
, 8 the problem of when someone responds to something on a 9 survey that's done eight years prior to the incident.
10 Q All right. 11 A (Daines) What they are thinking at that time. 12 And usually they are not relating it. 13 Q Okay.. That's what I thought. Thanks. [ /') 14 Also, you said earlier that the plan you reviewed 15 meets " basic requirements". l 16 By saying this, I take it, and please correct me
.: 17. if I'm wrong, that you do not mean that the plan meets all 18 requirements in terms of assisting the special needs, or in 19 fact that it's even adequate?
20 A (Daines) Say that again, please. 21 Q I have in my notes here before that -- 22 MR. DIGNAN: Your Honor, may I note that I know 23 leading isn't a very good objection in this world. But, you 24 know, when you pick the horse up and lead it all the way -- 25 MS. TALBOT: I can rephrase it so it's not Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 = _ _ _ - _ _ _ _ . _ _ - - _ _ - . _ _ _ _ _ . . _ _ _ _ ___
LI DAINES - REDIRECT 19583 1 le adir.g.
-2 MR. DIGNAN:
~
-- to the water, I think it's time to 3 call. leading.
4 MS. TALBOT: I can rephrase it so I'm not leading. That's no problem. 6 .BY MS. TALBOT: 7 Q What did you mean when you said the plan meets
. 8 basic requirements?
9 A (Daines) When I say the plan meets basic 10 requirements, let's say that there is -- it addresses a 11 special needs problem to the point that for planning 12 purposes that you have the special needs issue addressed in 11 3 there. All parts of that issue are obviously not addressed. 14 But it does basically address that. (
- 15. I could see no evidence as an example that there 16 was a complete understanding of what's not on your list and
, 17 the calls that are going to come in during the emergency 18 from those people needing assistance that's not on the list, 19 I could see no evidence that resources were oriented in that 20 direction or system to allow that to occur, and a l
21 recognition that that's going to occur. That's what I was l l 22 saying. j 23 It basically in parts of that, it does address. 24 You will see special needs. They have a special needs 25 coordinator, a special needs liaison. What I'm talking 1
/
'(3 -) Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
. 1 DAINES - REDIRECT 19584 r') 1 ab'out is that complete system,. based upon a recognition of
'b' 2 the problem, the true problem.
3 -Q So, in your opinion, can you' treat the identified 4 and the nonidentified special needs residents apart from 5 each other? I' 6 MS. TALBOT: Is that leading, Mr. Dignan? l JUDGE SMITH: I don't know if it was leading or 7 ! ,. 8 not but -- l 9 MS. TALBOT: Confusing. 10 JUDGE SMITH: Yes. 11 MS. TALBOT: Just strike that last question. 12 Forget it. 13 JUDGE SMITH: Do it again. 14~ MS. TALBOT: Shall I try it again? Okay, take
)
15 two. 16 BY MS. TALBOT:
, 17 Q So, in your opinion, is it appropriate to treat 18 the identified special needs, i.e., those who have filled 19 out the form and said, I need help, apart from the 20 nonidentified special needs, i.e., those who at the last 21 hour say, oh, my goodness, I need help, and they call up and 22 say, come and get me?
23 A (Daines) Well, I think that's one of my major 24 points. That you are morally obligated to provide the 25 resources, the people that you've gone out and got them on
' A, Heritage Reporting Corporation i] (202) 628-4888 - - - - - _ _ _ l
6 DAINES - REDIRECT 19585
,-s 1. that list, and you've got to plan the resources to allow .
'l .
2 that to occur. 3 Separate from that you have got to understand that 4 that is only going to be a small part of the people that 5 actually need assistance in your community. And with a 6 recognition of that, going back to your resources and 7 designing a system and the resources to support the people
, 8 that are out there that ate going to call in and say, I need 9 help, that aren't on your list. , 10 Q Earlier Ms. Selleck, and I think Ms. Chan may have 11 touched on it too, said, well, what if we call someone up I
l 12 and there is no answer, and we send that vehicle to pick up l 13 someone who wasn't identified.
- 14. In your opinion, is that an appropriate way to 15 deal with nonidentified special needs residents?
l 16 MS. SELLECK: Could I have that question back?
. 17 JUDGE SMITH: All right.
18 BY MS. TALBOT: 19 Q Earlier I believe that either Ms. Selleck or Ms. 20 Chan raised the hypothetical that what if you call someone 21 on the list to give assistance to, and there is no answer, 22 or the person doesn't respond, or even in a separate example 23 the person says, I don't need the help. Then you take that 24 resource and then you allocate it to someone who was not 25 pre-identified, who called up and said, I need help, but i Heritage Reporting Corporation
\/ (202) 628-4888 J
1
.1
. DAINES - REDIRECT 19586 Lpr"$' 1 someone'for whom there had been no particular resource
( h' - p- 2 allocated by virtue of the fact that they weren't l l
.3 identified. j i
' 4: Am I more clear'now? I can try it again. 1 1
5 JUDGE-SMITH: I think you've put lots of thoughts 6- in there that is not an accurate characterization of the 7- questions that --
,- 8 MS.,TALBOT: I'll just withdraw it then.
t- 9 JUDGE SMITH: No, don't do it just because of my 10 comment. l 11 MS. TALBOT: Okay. 12 JUDGE SMITH: I'm trying to help. I mean, you 13 may. O .14 MS. TALBOT: .Okay. No, no. L 15 (Laughter.) l 16 MS. TALBOT: I'm just a little gun shy.
, 17 JUDGE SMITH: Well, no, no. Just relax. You are 18 asking perfectly fine questions. They just need a little 19 work.
I 20 MS. TALBOT: I'll just break it down then. 21 JUDGE SMITH: Yes, break it down into individual i I 22 concepts.
]
23 MS. TALBOT: Okay. I don't want to lead though. 24 See, so it's tricky. 25' JUDGE SMITH: Well, even if you have to lead a i Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
DAINES - REDIRECT 19587 r~N 1 little bit.
) ,
2 MS. TALBOT: Okay. l 3 (Laughter) 4 MR. DIGNAN: I wasn't objecting to leading per se.
5 It's just that that leading got to be a bit much. l l 6 MS. TALBOT: Well, I appreciate your help, really. 7 THE WITNESS: (Daines) I think I understand your
, 8 question, but I think also that you are trying to put two 9 things together that shouldn't be together.
10 One is, the person that calls, or they call that 11 individual and the phone line is busy, or no one answers. 12 When I answered the question earlier, I feel, as an 13 operational person sitting in an EOC, I would have to make f) v 14 the decision to go on and expend the resources to that 15 house, or you sit there and keep dialing, keep dialing, keep 16 dialing, or you go on and send that resource out.
, 17 For that person that calls in, then you have a 18 different situation. You may end up where you have 19 resources. If you're prioritizing your list, you may end up 20 expending resources for a person that wasn't on the list 21 before you get to the person that was on the list unless you 22 have made a decision ahead of time saying, I am going to 23 devote my resources to everybody on this list. Once they 24 are serviced, then I will devote my resources to the people 25 that are calling in that need help right then, and I'll send (O) Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
Q
- p. DAINES -- REDIRECT 19588
) 1 .them out.- ;
,.V '* i 2- So it's sort of two different situations that will 3 require two different say operational ways to go about 14' accomplishing it.
.5 MS. TALBOT: Okay, that answers my question.
'6 I have nothing else. Thank you, Mr. Daines.-
7 MS. SELLECK: I have a couple of -- i- 8' EXAMINATION tY JUDGE MCCOLLOM 9 ' JUDGE MCCOLLOM: Let me straighten one other thing
.10 out. I've got to go back to St. Petersburg beach.
- 11 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir.
12 JUDGE If?COLLOM: I believe there is a little 13 confusion in the numbers that we talked about when we said 14- 4.2 or 4.3 percent. 15 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir. 16 JUDGE MCCOLLOM: And the 95 percent that you said
.- 17 were waiting for you to help them and they were on your 18 list. ;
19 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir. 1 20 JUDGE MCCOLLOM: All right. That was not 4.2 21 percent of the total population on St. Petersburg Beach, was l I 22 it?
]
l 23 THE WITNESS: (Daines) No, sir. The figures that 1 24 were developed were done on a regional basis from the 25 evacuation zones. That's one city, and it wasn't Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 l l l __--.a.n .-
Ji 19589-
}}< j L1. specifically. -- that' survey was not directed at just that w U <2 'one city.
3 JUDGE MCCOLLOM: All right, but you'had an 4- evacuation zone in that city.
'5 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir.
6 ' JUDGE MCCOLLOM: What was the population of that?
;, 7 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Sir, the City'of St.
1 8 Petersburg Beach is approximately114,000. j 9 JUDGE MCCOLLOM: All right. And you apply the 4.3 i 10 ' percent to that.- Whether it was regional-or not, that's the 11 number tb-t you have. 12 How many were the 100 percent of those that you 13 had on your list of which'95 percent were waiting to be 14: evacuated? (}
.15 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Sir, I think the easiest-16 way.to -- let's see. Here we go. I would like to repeat .; 17 again, I'm not a mathematician in any way.
18- JUDGE MCCOLLOM: We respect that.
- - 19 THE WITNESS
- .(Daines) The depuhy fire chief told 20 me that they picked up 250 people that were on their list.
l L 21 JUDGE MCCOLLOM: Okay. And if I multiply 4.3 22 percent times 14,000, I get 602. 23 THE WITNESS: (Daines) That will work out fairly l 24 close. 25 JUDGE MCCOLLOM: Now the point is that you didn't i 1 p tg Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
V^ u [: H 19590 r"<g 1 move 95 percent of the 602. You removed 95 percent of --
, g' 2 that.95 percent corresponded to 250.
3: THE WITNESS: (Daines) About 280 or so, sir. i 4 Yes, sir, but what's important is they picked up 5 an additional 300 that weren't'on their list. l 6' JUDGE MCCOLLOM: And that comes out pretty close. I c,. 7 THE WITNESS: (Daines) And that comes out pretty L.i 8 close, yes, sir. 9 ' JUDGE MCCOLLOM: Yes. Thank you. 10 JUDGE SMITH: Ms. Selleck, just a moment. I 11 EXAMINATION BY JUDGE COLE 12 JUDGE COLE: Just one. Based upon your estimate 13 of the total percentage requiring assistance, say it's 5 i 14 percent, your list contains about .15 percent. 15 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Right now, sir; yes, sir. 16 JUDGE COLE: So that's about one out of every 30
. 17 that actually -- one person out of every 30 that need help 18 are currently on your list.
19 JUDGE SMITH: That's consistent with your 20 understanding? Yes? 21 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir. 22 JUDGE COLE: So for everyone on your list, there 23 are 29 out there that are going to need assiatance. 24 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir. That list is 25 gradually being built up. () Heritage Reporting (202) 628-4888 Corporation l
r- ! i1 ] l 19591 f-KJ . 1 JUDGE COLE:- What would you do to take care of ; e ) 2 that problem? 1 3 THE WITNESS: (Daines) What I was trying to I 4 explain before, we have tried to build up our list but not 5 concentrating on numbers alone;-the. concentrating on 6 building up our list with persons that really should be on 7 our list. We are gradually doing that.
. 8 When I said earlier, sir, that we have 3,000 9 people on the list, that didn't happen like that. That 10 '3,000 built up over a period of about four years. We 11 started out with 200. It went to 500. As we got more of 12 those agencies' involved that we were discussing earlier, we 13 might add an additional 500. So that was a gradual build
/O 14 up.
O 15 Now we're trying to concentrate our efforts on not 16 only building it up, but also building it up with only those
.. .17 people that need to be on that list.
18 JUDGE COLE: All right, sir. You are going in a 19 little different direction than my question anticipated. 20 You have been working on this for seven or eight 21 years and you are developing your list. And as of now, 22 after identification of the problem and working on it for 23 some period of time, you still only have one out of every 24 30. 25 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir. ( Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
l b 1 L 19592 L l r Nfi 11 JUDGE COLE: My question, other than trying to get I l
.%.) 2 more people on-the list, you're going to have to provide for 3 those other 29 people in an emergency.
4 How can you do that, and what are you doing to E 5 provide for that? i' 6 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Sir, a part of those 7 people -- I mentioned home health care agencies before. A l -, 8 part of that additional people that are not on that list 9 belong in home health care agencies. At one time we went 10 out to the home health care agencies and said, register your 11 people with us. 12 What we found though is that persons on home 13 health care are not on home health care for long, long () 14 15 periods of time; that they are on and off. months, four months under home health care. Maybe three
'16 As I said with the DRG system, we are getting more
'17 on.home health care, and they stay on for a month as they 18 recuperate from a major operation. Then they are off of 19 home health care.
20 We're working with those agencies such as home 21 health care to maintain a list on their own by evacuation 22 zone. That when the emergency occurs, they will, in turn, 23 provide us that list at that time. Now that'J a large 24 number of people. At any given time in our community, not 25 at any given time, but over a one year period, we have
'O Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
4 19593
/~'s 1 30,000 people on home health care over a one year period.
\
>~') 2 So that's a large segment of that population that you're 3 talking & bout that's not on our list. i i
4 We chose to address that side of the problem that i 5 way. By having that agency maintain a list, provide it to 6 us at the time of the emergency. We have them go through 7 and even color code their cards, or within the computer mark 8 off what people need to evacuate under certain conditions. 9 What we would like to do eventually, at'least for the large 10 ones, is directly link them into us by computer modem so 11 that we would have input into our computer when the [ 1. 12 emergency occurs, and then we can get the names and 13 everything right from that agency. That's one way that we'd I \ 14 addressed it. V 15 The other way is througn, first of all, I 16 recognizing the problem which we did not recognize before, 17 and now trying to take our entire system to include the 911 18 our normal response, which goes on every day, where I've got 19 44 rescue vehicles -- advanced life' support, fire engines, 20 fire rescue vehicles -- out in a county, of keeping them in 21 service. Of taking a portion of our ambulance advanced life 22 support, committing them to our every day emergency, fitting 23 into them as many of these calls that we're talking about 24 here as we possibly can. 25 Then taking the ones that start building up that
'r] (j Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 I
l
DAINES - RECROSS 19594 r^p 1 we have the excess. Then trying to find resources that we j b"# .2 can dedicate to throwing them into it also to going and'get 3 these people. 4 So we are trying to use everything available to 5 us, to include our every day 911 system, our dispatching 6 system-for our normal operations. Then adding additional 7 resources that we can come up with through bus, through van
, 8 and through additional ambulances that will be called in to 9 service by the ambulance company, which would raise our 10 ambulance total to just about 50.
11 MS. SELLECK: Just a couple of questions. 12 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 13 BY MS. SELLECK: [~T 14 0- Your experience in Hurricane Elena, what portion k - 15 of the county was evacuated? 16 Did I hear correctly, you said about half? .,- 17 A (Daines) Yes. I don't think I said that, but I 18 think one of the Judges indicated it was done by University 19 of -- or Florida State University after the hurricane. They 20- could only pin it down to about 350,000 plus. That would be 21 probably 40 percent or so, but you are approaching half of 22 the community was evacuated. 4 I 23 One of the problems we have with that, and I might 24 mention it because it's a cons 3deration, is that we had many 25 people evacuate that we did not plan on that were not in the i Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
h:~ DAINES . RECROSS 19595. f- -1? threat area. dr . . cJ -0. Q- And at the' time you had pre-identified 3,000 3 special-needs person; is that correct? l l-L 4 A (Daines) Yes, ma ' am . . g 5 -Q And that. turned out, you said, to be an
^
4
-6 overinflated number.
7 A' (Daines) We think so, because many of those were 1 *
;- 8- not there. I
- 9. Q. In your testimony on page 9, you refer to other .,
10 calls on resources. There is a thousand EMS. unit' calls, and ] 11 then.there is another thousand additional calls. These are 12 the people who were not on your original list, am I right? 13 A (Daines) That's a mix. Part of those were J 14 service calls. That's also low.
}
15 When I tried to get the exact-number, I put in the. 16 critique thr; exact number that they actually responded as 17 part of the system and formally made records <nt it. I was
- 18. told that they estimate that they probably went 2,000 calls, 19 not 1,000. 'So.it probably is closer to 3,000 plus calls.
20 Q Of mixed, some on the list and some not on the 21 list. 22 A (Daines) Yes. That included normal response 23 also. So that was a mix of the normal emergency operations 24 that were going on, plus any calls that came in for 25 assistance. t Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
.h 7'
c , DAINES - RECROSS 19596 [.g. . 'l -Q- The' number.you gave before, one out of 25 people
- yt
- a. '2' beinglspecial needs' people, these are-people'who require 3 some assistance from someone, am I right, be it family,-
'4 neighbors, friends or the government or another
'5 . organization?
6' Am I understanding your testimony? 7 A. (Daines) No. I think the figure we are dealing 8 with,:the 4.3 pc;_sn. 2f what this goes back to. That was 9 people that. require outside assistance. And when it wab 10 saying outside assistance, that would be some type going 11 back-to what you are saying. 12 Q. Outside of their -- 13 A (Daines) Not necessarily the government. 14' JUDGE SMITH: I still think there is confusion on
)
L -15 .that point. But when you say outside assistance, not 16 necessarily the government, that eliminates - you don't
,. '17 include family members, or neighbors, or church groups as 18 being outside assistance?
19 THE WITNESS: (Daines) No , sir. I think I just 20 confused the situation. 21 The way the survey indicated, someone who could 22 evacuate, it was indicated in there, the outside assistance 23 part was addressed in other places in the survey. 24 What the 4.3 percent was is of people that had no 25 other means of assistance and would need someone to come in Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 , l
L .
, J:: '
I DAINES - RECROSS 19597 1 s y 1 ~ and help them. They didn't have a relative. They'didn't E .; ~2- have someone. I.think I confused you on that. f: ,: 3 JUDGE SMITH:- They would need some assistance t 4 which they.at that time could not then identify other than 5 you are asking yourself. L 6 THE. WITNESS:. (Daines) Yes, sir. They indicated 7 they needed outside assistance. -There were other ones that
, '8 indicated that they had friends or. relatives that would help 9 'them and take care of.them.
10' BY MS. SELLECK: 11 Q You also mentioned, in response to either a Board 12 question or perhaps Ms. Chan's question, using special 13- buses. () 14 15 buses instead of school buses? Did I hear you incorrectly or did you say special 16 A (Daines) I don't think so.
,, 17 Q Okay. I wasn't sure if I heard you correctly or 18 not.
19 MS. SELLECK: I have no further questions, Your 20 Honor. 21 MS. TALBOT: Your Honor. 22 MS. CHAN: Staff has one item it would like to 23 clarify.
-24 25
( Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 l i
l z l DAINES - RECROSS 19598 p' 1 RECROSS-EXAMINATION Y 'J 1-' \
'2 BY MS. CHAN:
i 3 Q You tclked at. great length about the concerns of 4 the elderly which seem to be a large percentage of the ( 5- population you are dealing with. They were concerned about 6 confidentiality when they identified themselves as needing 7 assistance, and they didn't want something stuck on their
, '8 door.that would notify the public that they might be easy 9 victims for crime or for other unpleasant things.
1* 10 And in response to some questions from the 11 Massachusetts Attorney General's office, you said that a 12 private company could go out and do these face-to-face 13 interviews and have the same success rate as let's say the l#~) 14 local firemen'or the police.
\_/'
15 Do you foresee any problems with the people being 16 more reluctant to discuss their needs with a private company
., 17 than with a governmental entity like the fire department or 18 the police?
19 A (Daines) I think again it's back to trust. That 20 going in, the fire department is in uniform when they show 21 up at the door, and there is a feeling of trust already. I , 22 don't see any reason why that same thing couldn't be built 23 up with proper identification, or wearing the name tag. 24 I think you read in the paper where people 25 identify themselves as somebody that they are not all the I 1 Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 l 1 j
t
\
6 DAINES - RECROSS 19599 l 7sg. 1- time. But I_think that if they have proper identification, l 1 4'- '12 2 and it may be a problem to get this' going, but I don't see 3 why eventually that couldn't be done, that feeling of trust 4 that can be built up, because they are also a response 5 organization. They are going to provide them a service.
, 6 Q Do you see any difference in the people -- if you 7 can tell from your experience. Would you anticipate any ; 8 difference in the people's mind about keeping the list 9 confidential that a private company may not be able to l
10 . withhold this information as opposed to a public agency that 11 might have some more duty to the public to not let these 12 names out? 13 A (Daines) I have not -- 14 JUDGE SMITH: Ms. Chan, I think you are pushing 15 the witness beyond his claimed expertise.
.16 MS. CHAN: Okay.
l l, 17 JUDGF SMITH: He doesn't claim any special 18 knowledge of this. 19 MS. CHAN: That's fine. The Staff withdraws its 20 question. 1 21 I have no other questions. 22 JUDGE SMITH: Any other questions? 23 MS. TALBOT: I just have two short clarifiers, 24 Your Honor. 25 I Heritage Reporting Corporation [] k (202) 628-4888 1 w________________________________________ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
l 19600 DAINES - REDIRECT
~. 1 FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION l 1 l
~' 2 BY MS. TALBOT:
3 Q Ms. Selleck raised the point earlier that the j
-4 3,000 figure on your list was overinflated. I i
5 Ic it true that that same list, though, is also 6 underrepresentative of the special needs populat4.on in 7 general?
, 8 A (Daines) Yes, that 's true based upon what 9 occurre and the information that we had. That we had a 10 small number on our list of the actual people within the 11 community that needed assistance during an evacuation.
l l 12 Q So the problem was more like the list didn't have 13 accurate information. ['} 14 A (Daines) Well, that's the second problem.
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15 We also did not have accurate information, and we 16 also had a small list.
, 17 Q Okay. You indicated that you set aside resources 18 for people on your list which the list is the best list you 19 can make and it's understood that you can't always get 100 20 percent on the list.
- 21 But do you also provide a separate resource pool 22 for people who are not on the list?
23 A (Daines) We are at the present time attempting to 24 take our resources and we're trying to do it on the side of 25 smaller type vehicles. We learned during an actual
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., 1 emergsr.by that you.cannot take a bus 1to go pick up one t
~)" ~2. person because a bus going down a dead end street might not
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3 be able to turn around, and we. ran into that quite often.
.4 You cannot use large vehicles to go pick'up people with 5 special needs.
6' So we are trying to locate, and we're setting 7 aside, we've asked fire departments to set aside vehicles..
,. 8. TWe tre attempting to set aside vehicles also that will allow 9: us to respond with a smaller vehicle type response and also
- .- . 10- asking the ambulance company to set aside a number of
. 11 ambulances for:.their response also.
12 MS. TALBOT: .Thank you. That's all, Your Honor. 13 EXAMINATION BY JUDGE COLE 14 JUDGE COLE: Just one question, Mr. Daines. 15- In the hurricane evacuation, Elena, was it? 16 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir.
; 17 JUDGE COLE: Three-hundred fifty to 400,000 people 18 were evacuated; is that correct, sir?
19 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir. 20 JUDGE COLE: Do you happen to know what percentage 21 of those people were actually assisted in evacuation? 22 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Sir, we could never -- we 23 could'never determine that, and we made attempts to. And it 24 goes back to your dealing with a group of people, and I've 25 put a statement in the critique concerning that. That we l Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
E' -_.a._m_ _ _ - - _ _ . . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ , . , _ _ . _ . , _ _ _ _ _ _
19602 1 had a very difficult time getting any information at all t
>' ' 2 concerning this whole thing. It was just very difficult 3 going back and finding out what happened. But we could not 4 develop that percentage; no, sir.
5 JUDGE COLE: It would be'a nice number. 6 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Yes, sir. 7 JUDGE COLE: But it's just not available.
, 8 THE WITNESS: (Daines) It really would. It 9 really would.
10 JUDGE COLE: Thank you. 11 JUDGE SMITH: Anything further? l l 12 (No response.) 13 JUDGE SMITH: Thank you very much. We've 14 appreciated your testimony. 15 THE WITNESS: (Daines) Thank you, sir. 16 (The witness was thereupon excused.)
. 17 JUDGE SMITH: Fifteen-minute afternoon break?
18 MS. GREER: Before we break this afternoon, can I 19 just address one point? 20 JUDGE SMITH: Sure. 21 MS. GREER: That is in terms of the scheduling. 22 The Applicants -- t 23 JUDGE SMITH: Now, have you brought this up with ) 24 the other people yet? 25 MS. GREER: No, this is really a follow up of what 1 i O Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 l I
p y.: 7, gg 19603 ] [.. [ wi i 1' we are willing to propose in order to -- 2 JUDGE SMITH: 'Right. See, in the protocol we !
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3 follow is:you get an agreed upon schedule'first with the 4 other lawyers. And if you'can't do that, then you bring to-5 us things that have to be resolved.
;6 MS. GREER: Okay, fine.
, jn 7 JUDGE SMITE: In any event, let's do it after the
, 8 break.
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9 MS. GREER: Fine. 10 (Whereupon, a recess was taken.) 11'
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- LONERGAN - DIRECT 19604
,< ' "N 1 Whereupon, t :
- 2 ARTHUR LONERGAN 3 having been first duly sworn, was called as a witness-herein 4 and was examined and testified ra follows:
5 DIRECT EXAMINATION 6 BY MS. TALBOT: 7 Q Mr. Lonergan, do you have in front of you o' 8 Testimony of Arthur Lonergan on Behalf of the Attorney 9 General for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts Regarding \. 10 JI-54, dated February 24, 19897 11 A (Lonergan) That's correct. 12 Q Do you adopt this as your testimony? 13 Have you gone over this?
/ 14 A (Lonergan) Yes, I have.
Y. ,)\ 15 Q Do you adopt this as your testimony? 16 A (Lonergan) Yes.
, 17 MS. TALBOT: At this point, Your Honor, I offer 18 Mr. Lonergan's testimony into evidence.
19 JUDGE SMITH: Objections? 20 MR. COOK: No objections, Your Honor. 21 MS. TALBOT: Your Honor, if I may -- 22 JUDGE SMITH: Well, let's receive it into 23 evidence. 'l l 24 MS. TALBOT: Oh, okay. )
-25 JUDGE SMITH: The testimony is received and will '( f s) Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 l
q.g LONERGAN - DIRECT 19605 ' ~
.W 1 be bound into the transcript as if ready.
L 7 2 (The Testimony of Arthur 3 Lonergan on Behalf of the 4 Attorney General for the 5' Cormnonwealth of Massachusetts l /* 6 Regarding JI-54 follows:) 7
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UNITED' STATES OF AMERICA
' NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION ATOMIC SAFETY AND LICENSING BOARD Before the Administrative Judges:
Ivan W. Smith, Chairman Dr. Richard F. Cole Kenneth A. McCollom
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In the Matter of ) Docket Nos. 50-443-OL
) 50-444-OL PUBLIC SERVICE COMPANY ) (Off-Site EP) 0F NEW HAMPSHIRE, EI AL. )
)
(Seabrook Station, Units 1 and 2) ) February 21, 1989
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TESTIMONY OF ARTHUR LONERGAN ON BEHALF OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR THE COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS REGARDING J1 54 k U
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TESTIMONY OF ARTHUR LONERGAN ON BEHALF OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL il FOR.THE' COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS REGARDING J1'54 l 1
SUMMARY
OF TESTIMONY l: I< q l This testimony concerns a telephone survey I conducted on February 6 through February 10, 1989. The purpose of this ; i survey was to find'out how certain space, which has been i designated for Congregate Care Center usage in various i't industrial facilities, is used in the normal course of business and how-that space could be made ready for use by evacuees in ~ the event that there was an emergency at Seabrook. I also asked each contact person to tell me who would-be available to provide the manpower to make the particular space ready for use as a Congregate Care Center. The above question ()
,-y was asked with respect to business and non-business hours.
Additionally, I asked whether there was a pita which hau been drawn up regarding the clearing of such space. l The results of the survey can be summarized as follows: out of the twenty-five facilities I called, only nine said they i had plans or procedures to address the matter of clearing the
- - space. Of these nine, five would rely on a plan given them by "Seabrook". The other four had some sort of in-house plan but only two of those were reported to be in written form. Three !
others stated they had no plans regarding this matter and two were "not sure" if such a plan was in existence. The general manager of one facility said he had no idea the facility had l been designated for use as a Congregate Care Center. One l l3 Nl individual indicated that clearing and making the space usuable
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.A I )5 for evacuees would entail reliance on a " directive". Two are relying on "Seabrook" or " Red Cross" to deal with space conversion or clearance. Six would not answer my questions and one' facility was no longer open.
When I asked the contact people about the staffing for a
. movement to clear or rearrange space, two said that they would rely on Red Cross or Seabrook, ten said they had a " call list",
four said-they had employees at the site around the clock, one
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" assumed" the facility would use its own personnel, six would not answer my questions, one had no idea the facility had been designated for such use and one is no longer open.
The names of contact people were made available through two
.. -documents, copies of which are attached to this testimony. The 1s ,) following statements are numbered according to the numbers on the June 21, 1988 status lists which are attached hereto as Attachment A.
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. ( ,, TESTIMONY l
1.. ~ Statement concerning Mass Electric in North Andover, i Massachusetts, at 1101 Turnpike Road, obtained from ) David Kennedy. i 1 1' On February 7, 1989 I spoke with Mr. David Kennedy. He informed me that during the normal course of business, the space which has been designated for use by evacuees in the
-event of an emergency at Seabrook is used for garage office .
i space, parking lots and vehicle repair. He said that the space i would have to be cleared prior to use by evacuees as a
' Congregate Care Center. If the emergency occurred during business hours, the space would be cleared by available
. employees of Mass Electric, "Seabrook" people and Red Cross people.' If the emergency occurred during non-business hours, the space would be cleared by "Seabrook" and Red Cross.
- 2. Statement concerning Mass Electric at 170 Medford Street in Malden, Massachusetts, obtained by Mr. peter Flynn.
I spoke with Mr. peter Flynn on February 7, 1989. He would not answer my questions.
- 3. Statement concerning Mass Electric at 44 River Street in Beverly, Massachusetts, obtained by Mr. Don McHale.
On February 6, 1989, I spoke with Mr. Don McHale. He informed me that some of the space designated for use as a Congregate Care Center is ordinarily used as office space. He told me that if an emergency occurred during business hours he f ( would look towards "Seabrook" or the Red Cross to clear that 4
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.that portion of the space which needed to be cleared. However, he was not' absolutely clear as to who would be responsible. Tf an emergency occurred during non-business hours, Mr. McHale said he was not sure who would supply manpower for clearing the space.
- 4. . Statement concerning New England Power / Mass Electric at 25 Reservoir Road in Westborough, Massachusetts, obtained from Mr. Ronald David.
On February 8, 1989 I spoke with Mr. David. He informed me that the space designated for use as a Congregate Care Center was used in the normal course of business as office space or
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auditorium space. .He said there would be some need to clear the designa~ted ares, depending on which floor was being used. 7~ During business hours Mr. David said he had an on site staff of \'-) 25 people who could be responsible for clearing the area. If an emergency occurred during non-business hours, Mr. David said he would contact his people. As an example of his people who would be available to perform tasks for clearing the space, he indicated that he had construction crews and maintenance people. Mr. David said he has a written plan for clearing the space which was proposed by Mike Lewis from Seabrook. On February 10, 1989, I spoke to Philip Wilkowski concerning obtaining a copy of the plan mentioned by Mr. David. In order to obtain a copy of this plan, I was infnrmed by Attorney Kirk Ramsauer, on February 14, 1989, to contact Mr. Thomas Dignan or John Ritcher at the law firm of Ropes & Gray.
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/Y 5. Statement concerning pSNH at 1000 Elm Street in Manchester,
( ,) New Hampshire, obtained from Mr. Mike Wojdyla. On February 8, 1989 I spoke with Mr. Mike Wojdyla. He informed me that the space designated for use as a Congregate Care Center is ordinarily used as conference rooms and an auditorium. He told me that tables and chairs would have to be broken down and moved in order to convert the space for use by evacuees. If an emergency occurred during business hours, Mr. Wojdyla said he had his own people, plus a list of people he i could call to provide the manpower needed. If an emergency - occurred during non-business hours, a " call-list" would be used i to provide any necessary manpower. Mr. Wojdyla was not sure ; whether there was a plan in existence regarding converting the
~~ space as a Congregate Care Center.
- 6. Statement concerning PSNH at New Hampshire, obtained from Charles Morton.
On February 8, 1989, I spoke to Mr. Charles Morton. He would not answer my questions and referred me to Mr. David Shields. I have been awaiting return call from David Shields.
- 7. Statement concerning pSNH at 333 March Avenue, Manchester, New Hampshire, obtair:ed f rom Jack Burke.
On February 8, 1989, I spoke with Mr. Jack Burke. He informed me that during the normal course of business, the space which has been designated for use by evacuees in the event of an emergency at Seabrook is used for vehicle storage, conference rooms, and garage area. He said that the space rN would have to be cleared of materials and vehicles in order to L__1__ _ _ _ _ _ _ . _ _ _ _ ._
.g pi) be used as a Congregate Care Center. If an emergency occurred during business hours, Mr. Burke said that the warehouse crew would clear the space. If the emergency occurred during ;
non-business hours, Mr. Burke said that standby people obtained l through a " call-out" procedure would be used to clear the 1 space. When asked if there was a written plan pertaining to converting the space for use as a congregate care center, he said he would have to check on this. He then told me to call p Don Tracy, who is the facilities manager. Mr. Tracy said that I would have to make my request to Ropes and Gray regarding the written plan for clearing the space. It was never indicated to me one way or the other whether in fact this facility had a
,, written plan.
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- 8. Statement concerning PSNH at 60-80 West pennacook Street in Manchester, New Hampshire, obtained from Don Tracy.
On February 8, 1989, I spoke with Mr. Don Tracy. He informed me that during the normal course of business, the space which has been designated for use by evacuees in the
. event of an emergency at Seabrook is used as office space and for the repair and maintenance of trucks. He said that in order to convert and use the space as a congregate care center, vehicles would have to be removed. If this emergency occurred during business hours, and the space had to be converted for use by evacuees, Mr. Tracy initially said that Red Cross would be used. Then he changed his mind and said that he would use
- in-house people to clear the area. If the emergency occurred N- during non-business hours, and the space had to be converted
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I Y O for.use, Mr. Tracy said that standby people available through
" call out" procedure would be used. He said that these are
-essentially in house people. When asked if there was.a plan in l
existence regarding clearing the space for use as a Congregate Care Center, Mr. Tracy said that there would be a directive to clear the space.
- 9. Statement concerning General Electric at Western Avenue in Lynn, Massachusetts, obtained from James Callahan.
On February 8, 1989, I spoke with Mr. James Callahan. He told me that the usual business carried on in this-facility is jet engine manufacturing. He informed me that during the normal. course of business the space which has been designated for use by evacuees in the event of an emergency at Seabrook is (n) used as auditorium space, warehouse space, and conference room space. He said that some rearrangement wculd be necessary in order to use the space for a Congregate Care Center, but he said that this would not disrupt the evacuees to the point of being a problem. If an emergency occurred during business hours and the space had to be converted, Mr. Callahan said that I employees of GE would provide the manpower. Similarly, if the emergency occurred during non-business hours, Mr. Callahan said
.that employees of GE would provide the manpower. Apparently there are three full-time shifts at all times working at this facility. When asked whether there were any written plans for clearing the. space, Mr. Callahan indicated that these type of plans were within their normal contingency plans.
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.10 . Statement concerning Sheraton-Wayfarer Inn at U.S. Route 3 Al s in Bedford, New Hampshire, obtained from Marcel Gerard, l general manager. j On February 8, 1989, I spoke with Mr. Gerard. lie informed )
L me that during the normal course of business, the space which had been designated for use by evacuees in the event of an emergency at Seabrook is used for meeting rooms, guest rooms, i l convention centers, and conference centers. When asked if this space had to be cleaned out or rearranged in order to be used by evacuees, Mr. Gerard indicated that there would be a ' day-to-day set up; that sometimes there is nothing in any of the rooms, but sometimes modifications would be needed to clear and set up. He said it was hard to predict because things change on an ongoing basis. Whether an emergency were to occur (q) in business or non-business hours, hotel staff would be relied on to provide the manpower. Mr. Gerard indicated that there was a plan from an independent team who may have beer. representing Seabrook. When asked for a written copy of this plan, Mr. Gerard advised me to call the legal department at Flatley Headquarters in Braintree. l l
- 11. Statement concerning the Sheraton Tara Hotel at Tara Boulevard in Nashua, New Hampshire, obtained from Bob '
Lehman, general manager. When I called Mr. Lehman, the general manager of the Sheraton Tara, and asked him questions about the space that had been designated for congregate care use, he did not know what I was talking about. He was unaware that this facility had been designated as such. He asked me to mail him the questions and
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a r 7~ A j' then he would speak to superiors at Sheraton. Mr. Lehman-
. indicated that he has been' general manager at this particular hotel for two months.
- 13. Statement concerning Raytheon at 141 Spring' Street in Lexington, Massachusetts, obtained from Len McCarrick.
On February 8, 1989, I spoke with Mr. Len McCarrick. He informed me that during the normal course of business the space which has been designated for use by-evacuees in the event of an emergency at Seabrook-is used for cafeteria space, medical department space, main entrance space, and large corridor space. When I asked him.if this space would have to be cleared out or rearranged in order to be used as a congregate care i center, he said that furniture would have to be moved. If the (Q ( ,/ emergency occurred during business hours, Mr. McCarrick said that Raytheon maintenance people would provide the manpower. If the emergency occurred during non-business hours, Mr.
'McCarrick said the security force who are there at the facility 24 hours a day and the janitors would provide necessary manpower. Mr. McCarrick said there was no plan in writing.
i regarding the clearing of the space. I
- 14. Statement concerning Raytheon at 430 Boston post Road in Wayland, Massachusetts, obtained from Steven Fugarazzo.
i On February 8, 1989, I spoke with Mr. Fugarazzo. He j informed me that during the normal course of business, the space which has been designated for use by evacuees in the f-, event of an emergency at Seabrook Station is used as cafeteria f (
o s_ J space, conference room space, and first aid facilities. Mr. Fugarazzo informed me that furniture would have to be moved in order to use the space as a congregate care center. If the emergency were to occur during business hours, maintenance personnel of approximately 45 people would provide the manpower.- If the emergency occurred during non-business hours, Mr. Fugarazzo said that a call in on an overtime basis would be initiated. He said that Seabrook would call and that Seabrook would initiate that call. He said that he does have a congregate care plan from Seabrook which he got last June or July. When I called back on February 10, 1989 to request a copy of this plan, Mr. Fugarazzo was not at the facility. I
, left a message and have been awaiting his return call.
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- 15. Statement concerning Raytheon facility at 528 Boston post Road in Sudbury, Massachusetts, obtained from representative of Raytheon.
On February 8, 1989, I spoke a representative of the Raytheon facility. I did not record his name. He gave me the following information. He said that in the normal course of business the space designated for use as a congregate care center is cafeteria space, conference room space, and first aid facility space. He indicated that this space would have to be I rearranged or cleared out to be used as a congregate care center and this would entail moving tables and chairs. If an emergency occurred during business hours, maintenance people { would provide the manpower. If an emergency occurred during I
.({;) non-business hours, "Seabrook" would notify Mr. Steve Fugarazzo, i
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) and he would then notify his people on a call-in basis.
(J - There is a plan pertaining.to use as a Congregate Care Center which was given to the facility by Seabrook some time last June or July.
- 16. Statement concerning Raytheon facility at Harwell Road, Hanscom Field Complex in'Bedford, Massachusetts, obtained from Anthony Mangini.
On February 8, 1989, I spoke with Anthony Mangini. He told me that.in the normal course of business the space designed for use by evacuees is ordinarily used as an aircraft hangar. He , said this space would have to be cleared out in order to be
-used as a congregate care center and that clearing out this space would entail removal of the aircraft. If an emergency occurred during business hours, Mr. Mangini said that Raytheon
{'~'} flight operations people and maintenance people would provide
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the manpower. If an emergency occurred during non-business hours, second and third shift maintenance and security guards would provide the manpower. Mr. Mangini indicated that there is a plan. Mr. Mangini said this facility has a plan which covers removal of the aircraft. In addition, he has a booklet of approximately 16 pages which he described as congregate care center type of a plan. When I asked for a copy of that plan, he advised me to contact an attorney named Mr. Carl Barton at Raytheon legal department in Lexington, Massachusetts. 1:)
) [A/') 18. Statement concerning Raytheon facility at 2 Wayside Road in Burlington, Massachusetts, obtained from Arthur King. On February.9, 1989, I spoke with Mr. Arthur King. He informed me that in the normal course of business, the space which has been designated for use by evacuees'is ordinarily used for' cafeteria space, dining room space, and conference ; room space. Mr. King said that this space would.have to be ' cleared out or rearranged in order to be used by evacuees. This would entail removal of furniture. If the emergency occurred , during business hours and the space had to be converted to use, personnel from plant engineering would provide the manpower. If.an emergency occurred during non-business hours, personnel from plant engineering and security by way of a " call in"
,N procedure would provide assistance. Mr. King told me there was i l-
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no written plan to clear the space which had been designated as a congregate care center.
- 19. Statement concerning Raytheon facility at Woburn Street in Lowell, Massachusetts.
On February 9, 1989, I spoke with a representative of Raytheon. He indicated that this facility manufactures missile systems. In the ordinary course of business, the space designated for use by evacuees would be used for a conference room, cafeteria, function room, or main aisles. The contact person said the space would have to be cleared out in order to be used by evacuees and this would entail the removal of furniture. If the emergency occurred during business hours, maintenance and tradesmen would provide the manpower. If the
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} emergency occurred during non-business hours, management would put into effect an emergency call in system. This person told me there are some written plans regarding converting this space and this has been put together by Raytheon. When I called back )
l on February 10, 1989, I left a message for Mr. Louis Chandounet l l requesting a copy of the written plan regarding the congregate care center. To this day I have not heard back from him.
- 20. Statement concerning Raytheon facility at 676 Island Pond Road, Manchester, New Hampshire, obtained from Winnie Blaise, Industrial Relations person.
When I called this facility on February 9, 1989, I asked to speak to Mr. Kevin Paquin or Mr. Robert L'Homme. Mr. Paquin is no longer there. The woman I spoke to, Winnie Blaise, took my questions and informed me she would get back to me. Ms. Blaise (q) , returned my call later this afternoon and told me that she was referring my questions to Mr. Carl Barton at the Raytheon Headquarters in Lexington. I received no answers to my questions from Ms. Blaise.
- 21. Statement concerning Raytheon facility at 350 Lowell in West Andover, Massachusetts, obtained from Mr. Manning.
On February 9, 1989, I called Mr. Manning. He informed me that the usual business carried on in this facility is the manufacture of ground to air missile systems. In the normal course of business the space designated for use by evacuees is a main cafeteria, a small cafeteria, and a medical facility. This space would have to be cleared out or rearranged to be p_ used by evacuees. This would entail the moving and rearranging s, of tables and chairs and the moving of other furniture. If an
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( emergency occurred during business hours, and the space had to be converted for use by evacuees, maintenance and tradespeople would provide the manpower. If the emergency occurred during non-business hours, there would be a call-in procedure , implemented. Mr. Manning said that a call-in procedure is available 24 hours a day, seven days a week. He also said that key members of management would be located by this emergency call-in procedure. Mr. Manning said there is no written plan for conversion for use as a congregate care center, but they [ would rely on general corporate procedure.
- 22. Statement concerning Raytheon facility at 7 Redmond Street in Nashua, New Hampshire, obtained from Mr. Manning.
On February 9, 1989, I spoke again with Mr. Manning. He told
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(_) me that this Raytheon facility is used as a warehouse. Mr. Manning said that certain areas within the warehouse are designated office areas and some space is open and common. This space would be used for evacuees in the event of an emergency. Clearing up this space for use as a congregate care center would entail moving furniture. i If this emergency occurred during business hours, storekeepers, 1 materials handlers, shippers and tradespeople would provide the manpower. If the emergency occurred during non-business hours, security people would provide the manpower. In addition, there is l an emergency phone procedure that would be available. When asked l whether there were any written plans regarding use of the space, Mr. Manning indicated there are no written plans but he would rely
,s- on corporate procedure.
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+ I' t 23. Statement regarding Raytheon facility known as the Bunker (_,) Hill Pavilion at Water Street in Charlestown, Massachusetts. On February 8, 1989, I called this facility, and was informed that it is closed. As a result, I could not get any' information as to what the space is being used for presently, how the space would be rearranged or cleared out, who would provide the manpower, or whether there were any plans in fact to convert the space to a congregate care center. !
- 24. Statement concerning Yankee Atomic Electric Company at 1661 -
Worcester Road, Framingham, Massachusetts. On February 9, 1989, I placed a call to this facility, and left a message for Mr. John DeVicentis, Vice President, to call me back. Mr. DeVicentis called me back that day and asked me f- to address any questions to Attorney Thomas Dignan at Ropes and
*~2 Gray.
- 26. Statement concerning Perini Corporation at 73 Mount Wayte Avenue in Framingham, Massachusetts.
L On February 9, 1989, I called Mr. Richard Varney, plant manager. He informed me that this facility is the headquarters for Perini Corporation. In the normal course of business, space designated for use by evacuees would include conference rooms, unfurnished office space, a handball court, corridors, and lobby space. Mr. Varney said that some of this space would have to be cleared out to be used by evacuees. If an emergency occurred during business hours, maintenance personnel could i provide the manpower. If an emergency occurred during
S non-business hours, Mr. Varney assumed that personnel from (V i
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;O q ,) Perinilwould clear,the space. Mr. Varney indicated that there j: are no written l plans in place regarding the use of this. space i as a congregate care center.
t l' K ' 27. Statement'concerning Perini Corporation at Johnson R'ad.in o
. Bow, New Hampshire, obtained^from Gary Webb and Robert Walker.
]
On February 10, 1989,;I spoke with Mr. Gary Webb, shop office' manager. Mr'. Webb informed me that the usual business carried on in:this facility is heavy construction and repair . s. entailing ~the use of heavy equipment. He declined to answer any other question.and said that Mr. Walker would call me back. . On February 14, 1989, Mr. Walker of Perini Corporation
' called me back and told me to call Mr. George Graham regarding.
, 'any questions'I had. When I called the number given to me for Mr. Graham,'I realized that Mr. Graham worked for Seabrook
. Station in the emergency planning area. As such, I did not speak with him.-
28.: Statement concerning Holy Cross College at One College Hill in Worcester, Massachusetts, obtained from Mr. Zimmerman.
'On February 10, 1989, I called this facility and spoke with Mr. Zimmerman who indicated that he would get back to me. On February 14, 1989, I spoke again with Mr. Zimmerman. He told me at that time that all questions regarding congregate care centers should be addressed to Attorney Thomas Dignan of Ropes and Gray.
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4 LONERGAN - DIRECT 19606 1 MS. TALBOT: Your Honor, just to point out, there F EtO . 2 was one part that was omitted in the beginning. .There
- 3 should'really.be a little section'on who Mr. Lonergan.is.
L 4 So maybe if' counsel'for Applicants, Attorney Cook, would ask 5 him just--to get it on the record that he's a - you know,
who he is,'because it's not in there.
6' 7 JUDGE SMITH: Where are you employed?
, 8 THE WITNESS: (Lonergan) I'm employed at the 9 Department of the~ Attorney General, in the Public Protection 10 Bureau, as an investigator.
11 JUDGE SMITH: How long have you been employed 12 there? 13 THE. WITNESS: (Lonergan) I'm there one year. 14 JUDGE SMITH: Do you have any special 15 qualifications as an investigator? 16 THE WITNESS: (Lonergan) Qualifications in the _.- 17 sense of?
.18. JUDGE SMITH: Training, experience.
19 'THE WITNESS: (Lonorgan) Training. Upon arrival l 20 at the Department of Attorney General, you are assigned to a 21 senior investigator, and you are with him or her for a 22 period of time until you are assigned your own cases. 23 There is also a manual and there is also more or 24 less a lot of give and take between the investigators, based 25 on their prior experience with similar cases and similar I Beritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 _-- -______-________a
p.. . (l + ' LONERGAN - CROSS 19607 L , . 1 similar circumstances. [. >- JUDGE SMITH: Okay. 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION. 4 BY MR. COOK: 5 Q Mr. Lonergan, my name is Geoffrey Cook. I am one 6- of the attorneys representing the Applicants in this
,. '7 proceeding.
1, '8 'You were employed then, as we heard,'as.an 9 ' investigator'by the' Attorney' General's office. Yes? 10 A (Lonergan) Yes. Yes, I amt. 11' Q And how long have you. worked as an investigator 12' 'for the Attorney General? 13 A- (Lonergan) I'm.there just about one year. 14 ' Officially it would be a year May 16th. 15 Q Have;you had any experience as'an investigator 16 working for other' employers?
, ,< 17 A (Lonergan) No , I have not.
18 Q Mr. Lonergan, did you perform this survey as part 19 of your duties as an investigator? 20 A (Lonergan) Yes, did. 21 Q Who asked you to perform the survey? 22 A (Lonergan) Attorney Talbot. 23 Q And did she give you a list of questions? l 24 A- (Lonergan) A survey with a list of questions, l 25 that's correct. j 1 I Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 I
-------------___m_ _ _ _ . . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
LONERGAN - CROSS 19608 i (~s) 1 Q Do you have that list of qpestions with you? 1 _l
'("/ 2 A (Lonergan) Yes, I do.
I 3 Q I want to show you a list of questions that has 4 been produced for the Applicants and just ask you if it's 5 the same list of questions. And if it is, I would like to 6 have it marked as Applicants' Exhibit 62 and admit it into 7 evidence.
. 8 (The document referred to was 9' marked for identification as 10 Applicants' Exhibit No. 62.)
11 (Document proffered to the witness. ) 12 BY MR. COOK: 13 Q They appear to be -- 14 A (Lonergan) It's identified as a Congregate Care
]}
1 15 Center Survey. And for this particular one, it's in North 16 Andover and he was the first individual I spoke to, Mr.
, 17 David Kennedy.
'18 Q And if you leaf through those question sheets, 19 they appear to cover the facilities that you spoke with, is i
20 that right? l 21 A (Lonergan) Yes, yes. 22 JUDGE SMITH: Mr. Cook, the identification number, 23 the last exhibit number I have for the Applicants is No. 54. 24 MR. COOK: Yes, Your Honor. We are planning to 25 use and add several additional exhibits in the filing that ( Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 o-__---_----- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - .
l {' i: ; r LONERGAN - CROSS 19609 1
)
N fi 1 -- will go out. tonight as'part of Applicants' response to the a') z 2 Interveners' second filing' phase.. And so we anticipate that
, 3- that number will come up through 61, and that this would be 4 Exhibit-62..
5 JUDGE SMITH: 'Okay. 6, MR. DIGNAN: It's reserved ammbers in between, 7 Your Honor. i 8 BY MR. COOK:
'9 Q. Mr. Lonergan, are these the only questions you .s 10 ' asked' contained in these sheets? There aren't any other 11' ' questions,'are there?
12' A (Lonergan) No. Any questions came from the 13- -survey. 3- Q. I see. And you didn't ask the first three i 15 facilities that you list about the existence of a plan to 16 ' clear space, did you?
. 17 A (Lonergan) No, I did not.
18 Q Why was that question added in handwritten form 19 ' starting with the fourth sheet? 20' A (Lonergan) The reason that it's added is that 21 after making my first calls to the applicants, I went back
'22 to the attorney just to let her know that I had begun this J
23 ew;vey, as to how it was going, whether or not I wac able to ) 24 contact these people, and just kind of a rough idea as to j
. 1 251 how things were proceeding.
1 Heritage Reporting Corporation : (202) 628-4888 ! J I
[., ; LONERGAN - CROSS 19610 s:
,r'sf l' And she brought it to my attention. She said, did 4 2 you ask.the question if they have plans. because initially 3 she did tell me to ask that question. I neglected to ask 4 that question on the first two or three, or the first three, 5 whatever it was.
so Ms. Talbot had asked you to ask the question 6 Q 7 about the existence of a plan to clear space before you
.. 8 called any of the facilities?
9 A (Lonergan) That's correct. 1 10 0 I see. The notes you made on each of these survey 11 sheets constitute the entire extent of the notes you took 12 while making these phone calls; am I right? 13 A (Lonergan) Yes, on both sides. Yes, there is no
/ ) 14 more than what you have a copy of.
\~)
15 Q And did you take those notes right as you made the 16 phone calls, either right after the phone calls or during
. 17 the calls?
18 A (Lonergan) Pretty much during the course of the 19 conversation. And if there was more to it, I'd maybe write 20 something alongside of it. But, yes, pretty much during the 21 course of the conversation. 22 Q And when did you prepare the testimony that's 23 based on these survey sheets? 24 A (Lonergan) I concluded this some time around
~
25 February the 10th. I believe it was during the period of
' (f3j Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4868
I LONERGAN - CROSS 19611 rx 1 February.the 6th through the 10th that I made the calls. A
/
2- And upon completion, after anybody that was supposed to get 3 back to me and they finally did, they I returned it to 4 ' Attorney Talbot. 5 Q And when did you actually make the effort?
'[ 6 I'm sorry, I don't think you answered the question ,
l 1 7 that I had wanted to ask.
.. 8. When did you make the effort to summarize this 9 information in the form of testimony?
10 A (Lonergan) That was my completion of the task. 11 I, in turn, returned it to Attorney Talbot, and that was the 12 substance of the survey, and then it was typed up and given 13 to me. 14 Q So you did not prepare the actual testimony by 15 formulating the paragraphs. You approved it and adopted it 16 after it had been typed up?
, 17 A (Lonergan) Well, I can only say that I had 18 prepared it by way of the questions and the responses, and I 19 wrote down the responses. And then I, in turn, returned it 20 to Attorney Talbot.
21 Q And when you received.those responses back, did
- 22. you make any corrections?
23 A (Lonergan) None that I can think of offhand, no. 24 Q Mr. Lonergan, in your present position, have you ) ever prepared written testimony on prior occasions based 25 ( Heritage RejJrting Corporation (202) 628-4888
N LONERGAN -' CROSS 19612 jy- 1 upon information acquired through a telephone survey like
+ 2 that that you did Fore?
3 A (Lonergan) I have done another survey, but maybe 4 you should repeat that question just so I'm sure. 5 Q Sure. Was that other survey that you did 1 1 e 6 performed.by acquiring information over the telephone and 7 then summarizing that information or preparing it, analyzing
. 8 it after you acquired that information?
l: 9 A (Lonergan) It was doua over the phone. And as to 10 the extent of whether or not it was summarized -- did you 11 use the word " testimony"? 12 Q Yes, summarized in the form of testimony. 13 A (Lonergan) Yes. As far as I remember, it was [ j 14 just returned and that was the extent of it. I asked the
%/
15 questions and they gave the answers. I wrote them down and 16 I returned them to the attorney that made the request.
. 17 Q I take it that was the only occasion on which you 18 performed a survey similar to this one.
19 A (Lonergan) Yes, it is. 20 0 On that occasion did you take the opportunity, did ) 21 - you have the opportunity to evaluate or check the 22 information that you received over the telephone by either 23 speaking firsthand with individuals to confirm the 1 24 information that you had first received, or visiting ] 25 whatever facilities were the subject of that other survey? l () Beritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
1 LONERGAN - CROSS 19613 L l r x, 1 A (Lonergan) Which survey are you referring to? I ( ) l 4 2 The one that I have? l 3 Q Well, which survey were you referring to, Mr. i 4 Lonergan, when you said, I've performed one other survey? i l 5 A (Lonergan) That was for special facilities i 6 regarding whether or not, in terms of shelter care, I I 7 believe I did that for Attorney Leslie Greer.
, 8 MS. TALBOT: Excuse me. I'm unclear as to which 9 survey Mr. Lonergan is being crossed on right now.
10 MR. COOK: I'm just trying to understand, first of 11 all, whether Mr. Lonergan has prepared testimony and 12 examined a body of information based upon a telephone survey 13 on prior occasions. ["'i 14 And secondly, whether he had takea the opportunity l \ I ~- l l 15 to check on that information firsthand after acquiring that I 16 information over the telephone on that prior survey. 17 THE WITNESS: (Lonergan) As far as I know, the 18 prior survey has never been used as a form of testimony, as 19 far as I know. 20 BY MR. COOK: 21 Q But that survey -- 22 A (Lonergan) It was a survey that I conducted, and 23 I completed, and then I returned it. But as far as official 24 testimony, I'm not certain. I just don't know. I don't 25 think so. ('~'}j l Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
. e -- .
p, 19614' LONERGAN - CROSS l ?- 1 Q Do you.know if that survey involved the Seabrook L.L 2 ' proceedings,.the offaite license? 3 ,A- (Lonergan) I believe it does.- 4 Q You mentioned that the previous survey involved 5 the opportunity or the subject matter of -- what was it? 6 Congregate care centers? 7 A- (Lonergan) No. The one we had before.was the
;, 8 congregate. care center.
9 Q; Right. 10- A (Lonergan) The other one was for special 11 facilities relating to shelter. 12 Q Special facilities. 13 A (Lonergan) The various facilities in around the 14 area of the North Shore, and their size and that type'of 15- thing, and if they could accommodate people. That's just
'16 kind of a --
.., 17 Q Did that survey, by any chance, involve the
'18 question as to whether those. facilities had a plan for the 19 clearing of space? l 20 A (Lonergan) I would have to look at the survey. I 21 don't think so, but I don't remember.
22 Q Mr. Lonergan, did you visit any of these
-23 congregate care facilities?
24 A (Lonergan) No, I did not. 25 Q Mr. Lonergan, if I can direct your attention for a Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
LONERGAN - CROSS 19615
<x 1 moment to your testimony on page 1. I believe your 1
[' # 2 testimony states, does it not, that you called 25 3 facilities? l 4 A (Lonergan) That's correct. 5 0 And if I may direct your attention to page 16, why
-' is it that the last facility is numbered 287 6
7 A (Lonergan) Apparently they were out of sequence.
, 8 I took them as I found them, and they do jump and skip on 9 occasion such as -- if you notice, it goes 14, 15, 16, and 10 then to 18.
11 Q Right. And does that happen again as well? l 12 A (Lonergan) I think it does. I would have to look 13 at it, but I do think it kind of skips one more time. 14 Q Did you make any effort to ascertain why those (~} C 15 numbers were skipped? 16 A (Lonergan) Not really, no. 17 Q Mr. Lonergan, have you read the sections of the 18 Seabrook plan for Massachusetts communities, or SPMC that 19 concerned congregate care centers? 20 A (Lonergan) I don't believe I have. l 21 Q Have you seen a copy of the Applicants' congregate l l 22 care center management plan? l l 23 A (Lonergan) I don't think I have. No. 24 Q Do you know, Mr. Lonergan, the total amount of
.- 1 25 space that will be used to accommodate evacuees in each l l
,/~~
1 l ()
\-
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 l l
LONERGAN - CROSS 19616 q 1 facility during an emergency? Each facility listed in your i('( 2 Attachment A. 3 A (Lonergan) No, I don't. 4 Q Did you ask, in your survey, what proportion of 5 the total space a particular use such as office space, or
;s' 6 cafeteria space occupied as far as the total amount of space 7 available at that facility?
i 8 A (Lonergan) You mean numerically? 9 0 That's right. Either numerically or generally 10 such as does this facility -- 11 A (Lonergan) When I asked a qsestion, did somebody 12 give a square footage answer? 13' Q Either that, or did you say, does the cafeteria j '14 space here constitute 50 percent or half of the space at 15 this facility? 16 A (Lonergan) No.
- l. 17 Q You don't know then how Applicants determined the l
18 amount of space available for each of these facilities 19 listed in Attachment A; is that right? 20 A (Lonergan) No , I don't. 21 Q Did you find out then how Applicants arrived at l L 22 the numbers of people listed in the fifth column of 23 Attachment A of your testimony? l 24 This is Attachment A of your testimony, the last 25 two sheeth. I'm counting across from facility, address, () Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 1
LONERGAN - CROSS 19617 t fN 1 context, phone number, number of people. And asking you'if
'N .
4 2 you found ort'or whether you understand how Applicants 3 arrived at.the numbers contained in Column 5 of Attachment 4 A. 5 A (Lonergan) I do not know how they arrived at 6 those figures. > 7- Mr. Lonergan, are you aware that the American Red
~
Q ! I
-,- 8 Cross has detailed procedures governing the requirements for 9 congregate care centers?
10 A (Lonergan) No , I'm not. I 11 Q Have you seen any check lists or shelter 12 evaluation forms that would be used by the Red Cross in 13 determining whether a facility is an acceptable congregate 14 care center? [~}/ 15 A (Lonergan) I don't think I have. No. 16 Q You don't know, as an associated question, whether 17 any of the facilities you contacted were evaluated according 18 to such criteria? l 19 A (Lonergan) By way of the Red Cross? ) 20 Q Yes. 21 A (Lonergan) I really don't know. I know that the 22 Red Cross was mentioned in the early stages of the survey I ) 23 conducted by -- I know in fact David Kennedy, the first
- 24 gentleman that I spoke to, mentioned the use of the Red 25 Cross. 1
(- Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 l
L lI LONERGAN - CROSS 19618 f"'- l' Q Are. you aware:.of 'any Red Cross requirement ~ for a i ,
- +t
-~
2 plan'toiclear space then at congregate care-facilities? 3: A '(Lonergan) .No, I'm'not.
~
4' Q Mr. Lonergan, I would like'to direct your
-5' attention to.your notes for a minute. One.of the questions
'6 you'ask which is listed on your survey sheets'under Question 7 3.is, "What sort of action.the clearing space would entail?"-
., 8 Is this correct?
9 A '(Lonergan) That's Question No. 3, yes. 10 Q On your fourth sheet, if'I can ask you to turn to 71 thatLwhich applies to the New England Power Facility in 12 Westboro.
-13 Your notes say that, ' Depending on the floor, some
.14 . desks or filing cabinets would have to,be moved", or 15 approximately.that; ' is that correct?
16 A (Lonergan) Yes.
,- 17 Q And if I can move to your survey sheet numbered
- 18. 15, under the same category, under what.would clearing of 11 9 space entail, your answer is, " Moving tables and chairs" u20 that you received from --
21 A '(Lonergan) You've gone from No. 4 to No. 15?
-22 Q Number 15, that's correct.
23- A (Lonergan) Okay. i
'24 And it's Question No. 3, and the response I took 25 was, " Moving tables and chairs" for No. 15.
\
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LONERGAN -' CROSS 19619 j' Wl 1 .Q. " Moving tables'and chairs". h * -C 2 If I can direct your. attention finally to page 9 3 of your testimony where you describe your conversation with g 4- Mr'. Len-McCarrickLat the Raytheon facility in Lexington, and 1:
-5 this would be what you have numbered 13 on your survey ~ sheet-6' 'as well as 13'in the testimony.
7 You testify that you learned.that the space at 4 8' Raytheon in Lexington is used for cafeteria space, medical 9 department space, main entrance space and large corridor 101 space; is that correct? 11 A1 (Lonergan) Yes, that is. 12 Q What do you understand the cafeteria space to
'13. consist of?
14 A (Lonergan) Tables and chairs. 15 -(F And the medical department space? 16 Probably beds, tables. ,. 17 A. (Lonergan) Yes,.I'm not sure. Well, I shouldn't 18' .say I'm not sure. But I can't remember exactly if they 19: meant that there were sort of like cubicles as you would 20 find in an emergency room in a hospital for immediate care L21' facility or something of that, or if it was, you know, just 22 an office on a corridor that maybe during the course of a 23 day somebody may get ill and they would walk down to see
.24' that nurse or who might'be there.
;5 2 Q All right. And the main entrance space, what do I Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
._ __o
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{. LONERGAN - CROSS 19620
' 1' you think that consists of?
4 , a 2 A. (Lonergan) Just sort of a -- my guess is a lobby. 3 Q A lobby or a hallway? A (Lonergan) Yes.
.5- MS. TALBOT: Excuse me. May I instruct the 6 witness, Your Honor.
7 Mr. Lonergan, please d.n't guess if you don't
, 8 know. Thank you.
'9 BY MR. COOK:
10 Q That would probably be the same for the large
.11 corridor space, the fourth of your categories.
- 12. -A (Lonergan) Well, I'm really -- I don't know 13 exactly what they would mean by a large corridor, but r -14 corridor space.
15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22' l 23 24 25 l Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 L_--____-___-_____-____.-
e - l' ; LONERGAN - CROSS 19621
,esf 1 Q .Now you asked to contact persons whether he had a
\ i,
'~ 2 written plan to clear the space at the facility, didn't you?
3 A (Lonergan) Yes. 4 Q Mr. Lonergan, what would you expect such a plan to' l I 5 contain? Arrows for moving furniture?
6 MS. TALBOT: I object, Your Honor.
7 THE WITNESS: (Lonergan) I have no idea what that
; 8 plan was.
9 MS'. TALBOT: I object. 10 MR. COOK: Applicants have no further questions. 11 (Pause) ; 12 MR. COOK: Your Honor, I beg the Board's 13 permission there are two additional questions. 11 4 JUDGE 3MITH: All right. 15 BY MR. COOK: 16 Q Mr. Lonergan, when you did your special needs 17 survey that you discussed that is not contained in this
.18 testimony, has that been utilized for other testimony, to 19 your knowledge?
20 A (Lonergan) I don't know. I 21 Q Do you know what was done with the results of that , 22 testimony? 23 A (Lonergan) I just couldn't answer that question, 24 I simply don't know. 25 Q When did you do that survey? l I
~r Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 1 1
i< . 4-LONERGAN -CROSS 19622 3 L1 A (Lonergan) I already -- I think it's'perhaps in
- 0(: 2 ' January. But, I mean, I'm just not sure.
3' Q JanuaryL1989?
'4l
. A -- ' (L'onergan)' '89, yes.
5 MR. COOK: Thank you very much.
6 CROSS-EXAMINATION
- 7 BY MS. CHAN:
,. 8 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Lonergan,-my name is Elaine
'9 Chan and I'm an attorney representing the NRC Staff.
~10 Earlier'the Board questioned you about your 11 . arrival at the Mass AG's office, may I inquire whether or 12- not any of your experience prior to joining the 13 ' Massachusetts Attorney General's office involved emergency 14 planning?
15 A (Lonergar) No , it did not. 16 Q Did you ever have any contact with the area of 17 selection set-up or use of. congregate care facilities? o 18 A (Lonergan) No. 19- Q Were you'give'n any documents by Attorney Talbot to 20 give you background information before you went to do this 21- survey? I 22 A (Lonergan) Repeat that please. 23 Q Were you given any documents in the way of
'24- background information before you went out to do this
.25 survey?
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LONERGAN - CROSS 19623
'j- 1- A. (Lonergan). No. I was just given a surveyfof
.V~
2 roughly 25 copies and began the survey. No other additional 3 information, as far as I can remember. 4 Q Would'you feel comfortable in stating that mcst of 5 the individuals you contacted at the locations designated as
'i' 6 congregate care facilities were generally aware of what was 7 necessary to set up a facility?
,- 8 For example, they all knew they had to move 9 furniture or airplanes or whatever was in the way?
10 A (Lonergan) I would say a good portion of them had 11 pretty good ideas as to what it was about. 12 Q And even if they didn't have a written plan or 13 procedure available they still seemed to know what needs to I~ \- 14 be done? M 15 A (Lonergan) Well, some did not have written plans 16 and a few were not aware of the concept.
,- 17 Q But even if they didn't have a plan, did they 18 still know about what they should do?
19 A (Lonergan) They may have, but I'm not sure. 20 Q on any of your questionnaires did you leave -- did 21 they all respond to question three, "Would the space need to 22 be cleared out or rearranged in order to be used by 23 evacuees?" 24 Did all of them know the answer to that question? l 23 MS. TALBOT: The document speaks for itself, Your Reporting Corporation
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I
4 LONERGAN - CROSS 19624 gx 1 Honor, unless you want to take the time and have M r.
;\)
2 Lonergan look back through all 25 pages. 3 MS. CHAN: Well, the second one doesn't have an 4 answer, so he might have an impression that was not recorded 5 on this survey. 6 MS. TALBOT: It's because the person wouldn't talk 7 to the investigator. That's apparent on the footnote.
, 8 MS. CHAN: I'll withdraw the question.
9 BY MS. CHAN:
.. l 10 Q On page eight you approached someone at the 11 Sheraton Tara Hotel. Was there any question in your mind as l 12 to whether or not that would be an appropriate congregate i
13 care facility even though he did not respond or recognize i [~'i 14 that it was designated? NJ 15 A (Lonergan) If the hotel itself was appropriate? 16 Q Yes.
. 17 A (Lonergan) I couldn't -- I wouldn't know. I just 18 stayed to the survey and made those calls.
19 Q You have no opinion as to whether or not it would 20 be appropriate? 21 A (Lonergan) I mean,. there was -- no, I do not. I 22 did not at the time. l 23 Q One of my earlier questions I asked if you had 24 seen any or had been provided any documents by the Mass AG's j L , j_ 25 office and you said, no; is that correct? Other than the 25 I L' .\- Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 I i' l
-n LONERGAN - REDIRECT 19025 i
, ~5 1 copies of-the survey form? j 2 A- (Lonergan) As far as I know that's all -- yes.
3 The survey was given to me and then I began to call the i 4 individuals on the list. This list that's attached. 5 Q So you would agree that you have not seen any 6 contracts between the Applicants and the congregate care l 7 facilities? -
.,- 8 A (Lonergan) Never saw any contracts.
9 MS. CHAN: Thank you. t . c. . 10 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 11 BY MS. TALBOT: 12 Q Mr. Lonergan, just to clarify. Are all the 13 facilities that you interviewed represented in the 14 testimony? -
)
- 15. Is there anyone that you called that isn't 16 represented in the testimony?
, 17 A (Lonergan) I believe they're all represented.
I 18 MS. TALBOT: Thank you. ' l 19 I have no further questions. 20 JUDGE SMITH: You're excused. 21 Thank you. , 1 l 22 (The witness was excused.) ! i l ' l 23 MS. TALBOT: Your Honor, regarding Applicants' 24 motion to compel production of documents that were withheld l 25 earlier under attorney / client privilege, I'm perfectly 1 1 1 ( Heritage Reporting Corporation l (202) 628-4888 l l l _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ - - - --- l
l 19626 f-N ' 1; willing to go forward with that tomorrow or whenever the M- 2 Judge wants. 1 3 However, if the Board requests a written response 1 4 .I would have to take my full 10 days. But I just want the ] 5 Applicants and the Board to know now that I don't feel like, 6 'you know, it's going to prejudice my position to not have a 7 written response. So if you want me to just come in
, 8 prepared.
9 JUDGE SMITH: Are you prepared to argued it orally 10 now? 11 MS. TALBOT: Not now, but tomorrow, Your Honor.
.12 JULGE SMITH: Okay. 1k), that's your call. If you 13 want to argue it orally, that's your judgment to make. We
/~' 14 will do that.
- k. ~
15 MS. TALBOT: Thank you, Your Honor. 16 JUDGE SMITH: Is there anything we can do this
,. 17 afternoon now?
18 MS. CHAN: One more item. 19 If the Mass AG could arrange to have a copy of the 20 redacted version of the Barnicle notes delivered to the 21 Staff, also, at the same time a copy is delivered to the 22 Applicants. 23 MR. BROCK: Understood, Ms. Chan. 24 MR. COOK: Your Honor, could I just confirm that 25 Applicants' Exhibit 62 was received, which was the question I
. ,ey -
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. 19627
.1 and. notes?.
2 JUDGE SMITH: No , it wasn't. You sort of had a 3- mass production process there.- 4 Are you offering it now? 5 -MR. COOK: _-Yes, Your Honor.
'6 JUDGE SMITH: Are there objections?
,. .7 . 'MR. BROCK: Could you clarify.the offer, please?
i 8 MR. COOK: Yes. 9I We're offering in evidence as Applicants' Exhibit 10 62 Mr. Lonergan's 25 survey sheets numbered one through 28 l-l 11 with numbers 12, 17 and 25 missing. 12 MS. TALBOT: I have no objection. 13 MR. COOK: No objection. 14 JUDGE SMITH:. Applicants' Exhibit 62 is received. 15 (The document referred to, 16 having been previously
.- 17 marked for identification 18 as Applicants' Exhibit 62, 19 was received in evidence.)
20 MR. DIGNAN: Your Honor, could I clear up another 21 thing mechanically? 22 I have a vague feeling, and I may be dead wrong on 23 this, that the testimony of Mr. Daines was never received in 24 evidence formally. The reason it hit me was just when I 25 O Heritage Reporting (202) 628-4888 Corporation
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'19628 f-s 1 start.ed thinking about 62. I don't think the magic wand was 2 actually waved over it. I have no objection to the magic 3 wand being waved. And my recollection may be wrong. But if 4 you recall there.was some give and take there. The. witness
.s 5 was offered and Ms. Selleck said, aren't you going to ask if 6 he adopts it. There was.one question of adoption and I 7 don't think anybody came back at you and ask you to formally
, 8 receive it. Now I could be wrong.
9 MS. TALBOT: In case.you're right,.can we do that 10 now. 11 JUDGE. SMITH: Yes, certainly.
- 12. It's received.
13' (The testimony referred to i 14 was previously marked, ( ) 15 received and bound into 16 the record at the end of
, 17 Mr. Daines' direct 18 examination.)
19 20 21 22 23 24 i, 25 Heritage Reporting Corporation (v) I (202) 628-4888 l l
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, [;
l1 19629 f( 1' MS. TALBOT: Thank~you, Mr. Dignan.
-- 'jl 2 MR. DIGNAN: Anytime.. .
4 13l JUDGE SMITH: All right. Anything else we can do ) I 4 this afternoon? L 5' .MS. DOUGHTY: One very-brief little thing. 6- Seacoast Anti-Pollution League's name. appears 7 through~some communications or some testimony that it C 8 shouldn't befon having to do with the Town of Hampton and 9 NECNP contentions dealing.with teachers. Our organizational 10 name shouldn't have been on there, we didn't brief that in 11 our trial brief and-I just wanted to call that to the 12' attention of the Board. 13 JUDGE SMITH: Thank you. ,O 14 MR. DIGNAN: Your Honor, one thing I would like to 1 %,/ E 15 put in the record as I think of~it. 16 In our service list we have been serving-for some 5 17 time a.Mr. Carrig, C-A-R-R-I-G, who is Chairman of the Board 18- of Selectmen of one of the towns and frankly _the name slips
- 19. my mind.
20 MS. DOUGHTY: That would be North Hampton. 21 MR. DIGNAN: Thank you. 22 We had two items returned to us now, refused by 23 this recipient. I have written Mr. Carrig a letter after ! 24 - the first one came in saying that if within -- I forget what ) 25 I said, 10 days or a week -- if I did not hear differently i 4 O Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 g __=__________________.1_____________ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ . _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _ _ - . _ _ _ . . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ . . _ _ . _ _ _ _
s u 19630 !
,> s 1 .I assumed this meant he no longer wished to be served and we
^ J L N '-' 2 would_take him off the service list. Obviously, if I hear 1
3- ' differently from him I will change it back. But I just want L 4 that in the record as a matter of record that that has been H 5 accomplished because we're going to pull him off the service 6 list if we don't hear back from him. 7 JUDGE SMITH: Okay.
, 8 Would you remind me again what the status of Mr.
9 Urbanik's testimony.on the SPMC is? 10 MS. CHAN: Yes. 11 At the present time the Massachusetts Attorney 12 General's office, specifically Mr. Traficontt, was 13 considering whether or not he would stipulate the testimony He
'} 14 in without cross-examination. And that's still pending.
15 has not.yet come to a decision to the best of my knowledge. 16 JUDGE SMITH: Okay. _,- 17 If nothing further we'll adjourn until 9:00 a.m. 18 tomorrow. 19 (Whereupon, at 4:10 p.m. the hearing was adjourned 20 to reconvene tomorrow morning at 9:00 a.m., Wednesday, 21 April 19, 1989.) 22 23 24 , 25 f Heritage Reporting Corporation
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ll CERTIFICATE 7-~ This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the matter of:
, Name: Public Service Company of New Hampshire, et al.
(Seabrook Station, Units 1 and 2) Docket No: 50-443-OL 50-444-OL (Off-site Emergency Planning) Place: Boston, Massachusetts Date: April 18,.1989 were held as herein appears, and that this is the original O(~'N transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission taken stenographically by me and, t , thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under the direction of the court reporting company, and that the transcript is a true and accurate record of the foregoing proceedings.
/S/ ,
(Signature typed) : Donna L. Cook Official Reporter Heritage Reporting Corporation (202)628-4888
7 _ _- _ _ _ . - -
,e.-
(((- ?:s s .' l~- I b f/ s ] u, L April 17, 1989 l'
. UNITED STATES OF-AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION before the t
ATOMIC SAFETY AND LICENSING BOARD
~
)
'In the Matter of )
)
PUBLIC SERVICE COMPANY OF ) Docket Nos. 50-443-OL NEW HAMPSHIRE,-et al. -) 50-444-OL
)
(Seabrook-Station, Units 1 and 2) ) (Off-site Emergency
) Planning Issues)
O APPLICANTS' CROSS-EXAMINATION PLAN FOR TESTIMONY OF GUY DAINES Applicants will' inquire into the following matters:
- 1. The amount of time the witness spent reviewing the SPMC and how much of the SPMC special population procedures I he reviewed.
- 2. Whether the witness was aided in his efforts to
- . identify special needs persons in Pirellas County, Florida by help from state agencies and home health care agencies.
- 3. Whether the witness is aware of Applicants' efforts to identify the special needs population by special needs mail back card distribution, annual calendar distributions; k/
iC-i . t~\ newspaper, radio, and television advertisement; and attempts to. work with state and local and home health care agencies.
- 4. Whether the witness is familiar with the procedures n for providing assistance to persons calling in during an emergency-(e.a., work of Special Populations Liaisons, route guides on buses to assist in boarding).
- 5. Whether the witness is aware of federal regulations and' National Fire Protection Association Life Safety Code, which require facilities to have emergency evacuation procedure.
By their attorneys, l >
~
JHopas'@~.Dignan,Jr. George H. Lewald Kathryn A. Selleck Jeffrey P. Trout Jay Bradford Smith Geoffrey C. Cook Ropes & Gray One International Place Boston, MA 02110-2624 (617) 951-7000 e O
I t 1
NRC STAFF CROSS EXAMINATION PLAN FOR GUY DAINES ON TESTIMONY CONCERNING THE INADEQUACIES OF THE SPMC AS IT PERTAINS SPECIAL POPULATIONS j 1
- 1. Determine witness' knowledge and experience with NRC and FEMA guidance I
.on emergency planning. l
- 2. Explore extent of witness' reliance on State of Floirda and local govern-ment agencies, including home health care agencies in the compilation of the special needs list for Pinellas County.
A. Is this the standard against which he is judging the adequacy of the , SPMC? B. Determine whether the inadequacies in the SPMC including communica-tion and resource overload might be res6lved with a more extensive effort similst to that undertaken in Pinellas County? C. Explore witness' opinion on p.7, "I think that the primary difference is through the experience that we have gained in working in this area over the past eight to nine years."
^
Has Pinellas County's special needs population list improved over the years? Is this generally true of most such lists? Are they [\_,'/ s improved after the experience of each energency?
- 3. Determine whether Pinellas County confirms lists and how lists are updated.
- 4. Explore implications of sending limited resources to locations only to find that people have already evacuated.
.4 Il
' 's April.18, 1989 f~~)Y.
's.
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION before the ATOMIC SAFETY AND LICENSING BOARD
)
In the Matter of )
)
PUBLIC SERVICE COMPANY ) Docket Nos. 50-443-OL OF NEW HAMPSHIRE, et al. ) 50-444-OL
)
(Seabrook Station, Units 1 ) (Offsite Emergency and 2) ) Planning Issues) I-
)
APPLICANTS' PLAN FOR THE CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE O TESTIMONY OF ARTHUR IDNERGAN ON BEHALF OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OF THE COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS REGARDING JI 54 A. BACKGROUND. I
- 1. Applicants will inquire about who employs the witness, his position with that employer, how long he has worked for that employer, and whether he acted in the course of his normal duties for that employer when he made the l telephone calls described in his testimony.
- 2. Applicants will inquire about who asked the witness I
to perform the telephone survey, whether that person provided ) him with any questions to ask, the number and content of , r O
l f i l L.) j those questions, and, in particular, the question concerning I the existence of a plan to clear space.
- 3. The witness will be asked about the notes he made on the information received in his survey and his preparation of his testimony.
- 4. The witness will be asked about his prior experience, if any, in preparing testimony based upon telephone conversations, any previous study of the operation of emergency care facilities, and any procedures he follows to verify or further investigate information acquired through telephone surveys.
,,3 t
V) B. NUMBERS AND ACCURACY. Applicants will inquire about the number of facilities the witness investigated, the number described in his testimony, and the reason for any numbering that does not proceed sequentially. C. KNOWLEDGE OF THE SPMC. The witness will be asked if he has read the sections of the SPMC that concern congregate care centers, and, if he J has, when he read those sections and what they say about clearing the shelter area. (D U 2 l I
I ' fG .O D. THE-DETAILS OF PROVIDING AVAILABLE SPACE. Applicants.will ask whether the witness knows the total ? ,
' amount of available space at the facilities, the proportions attributed to any particular use, the method used by Applicants to determine the amount of'available space, and the manner in which Applicants arrived at the numbers of people listed in Attachment A to the witness's testimony.
E. FAMILIARITY'WITH RED CROSS OPERATING PROCEDURES The witness will be asked about Red Cross procedures for establishing Congregate Care Centers, his knowledge about
- whether Applicants followed such criteria, checklists used to determine the acceptability of facilities as care centers, and the existence of any Red Cross requirement that such facilities have plans'for clearing space.
F. THE NEED FOR A PLAN. By using.a few examples drawn from the witness's notes and testimony, Applicants will explore the kinds of space j provided by designated facilities and whether a plan is j needed to clear this space. _' O r- . w ! '_), L , O. 1 P Respectfully submitted, thAddl Thomas /'G'. Dignan, . Jr. George H. Lewald Kathryn A. Selleck Jeffrey.P. Trout Jay Bradford Smith,
-Geoffrey C. Cook Ropes & Gray One International Place Boston, MA 02110-2624 (617) 951-7000 5
O e O _ _ _ - _ _ _ - - _ _ _ _ _ . _ - _ _ _ = . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ . _ - - . . _
.. . .. . . - - _ _ - - = - _ _ _ _
l i
-s i
l
' 'Q NRC. CROSS EXAMINATION PLAN FOR TESTIMONY OF ARTHUR LONERGAN ON BEHALF OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR THE COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS l REGARDING JI 54
- 1. Determine the witess' training and experience in emergency planning and the selection, set-up and use of congregate care facilities. I
- 2. Explore witness' f amiliarity with the role of the American Red Cross in emergency response and.its guidelines for congregate centers.
- 3. Confirm that'most yof individuals he contacted at-the locations designated for use as congregate care centers were generally aware of what was.necessary to set up the facility for congregate care, regardless of whether or not they had a written plan or procedure available.
- 3. Determine whether witness seriously questioned whether the Sheraton Tara Hotel would be an appropriate congregate care center. p.8 l
0 O
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