ML20195H244
| ML20195H244 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Seabrook  |
| Issue date: | 01/11/1988 |
| From: | Atomic Safety and Licensing Board Panel |
| To: | |
| References | |
| CON-#188-5423 ASLBP, OL, NUDOCS 8801190158 | |
| Download: ML20195H244 (116) | |
Text
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Q-UNTTED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
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IN THE MATTER OF: DOCKET NO:
PUBLIC SERVICE COMPANY OF ) 50-442-OL
) 50-444-OL
, NEW HAMPSHIRE, et a1 ) OFF-SITE
) EMERGENCY (SEABROOK STATION, UNITS 1 AND 2 ) PLANNING p EVIDENTIARY HEANING LOCATION: CONCORD, NEW HAMPSHIRE PAGES: 8385 through 849il DATE: January 11, 1988
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\- 1 UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION I 2 ATOMIC SAFETY AND LICENSING DOARD Soc 50T&I 3 i 4 In the Matter of: )
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) Docket Nos.
5 PUBLIC SERVICE COMPANY OF ) 50-443-OL l NEW HAMPSHIRE, et al., ) 50-444-OL 6 ) OFF-SITE EMERGENCY (SEABROOK STATION, UNITS 1 AND 2) ) PLANNING j 7 l 8 EVIDENTIARY HEARING 9
Monday, 10 January 11, 1988 l
11 Room 310 j Legislative Office Building l 12 New Hampshire Statehousu l Concord, NH l 13 )
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() 14 The above-entitled matter came on for hearinDi l
l 15 purnuant to notice, at 2:45 p.m.
16 BEFORE: JUDGE IVAN W. SMITH, CHAIRMAN Atomic Safety and Licensing Board 17 U. S. Nuclear ReDulatory Commission Washington, D. C. 20535 18 JUDGE JERRY HARBOUR, MEMBER l 19 Atomic Safety and Licensing Board U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission 20 Washington, D. C. 20535 j l
21 JUDGE GUSTAVE A. LINENBERGER, J R. , MEMBER !
Atomic Safety and Licensing Board 22 U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission Washington, D. C. 20555 23 24 !
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838b 1 APPEARANCES:
2 For the AnD11 cant l 3 THOMAS 0. DIGNAN, JR., ESQ. !
GEORGE H. LEWALD, ESO.
4 KATHRYN A. SELLECK, ESO. ;
Ropes & Gray [
5 225 Franklin Street !
Boston, MA 02110 t 6 i For the NRC Staff 7
SHERWIN E. TURK, ESQ.
8 Office of General Counsel !
U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission !
9 Washington, D. C. 20555 1
10 For the Federal _Emeroency Manaugment Aapncy: l I
11 H. JOSEPH FLYNN, ESQ. f GEORGE WATSON, ESQ. '
12 Federal Emergency Management Agency 500 C Street, S. W. i 13 Washington, D. C. 20472
- 14 For the State of New Hampshire
, 15 GEORGE DANA BISBEE, ASST. ATTY. GEN. l GEOFFREY M. HUNTINGTON, ESO. l
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- 16 State of New Hampshire-25 Capitol Street 17 Concord, NH 03301 18 Egr the Commonwealth of Massachusetts 1
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1 19 JOHN TRAFICONTE, ASST. ATTY. GEN.
CAROL SNEIDER, ASST. ATTY. GEN.
- 20 STEPHEN OLESKEY, ESO.
4 Commonwt th of Massachusetts f 21 One Ashburton Place, 19th Floor Boston, MA 02108 22 1
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\ i 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) l i 2 Egr the_New Enoland Q_qali_ tion _Anaj ns.t Nuclear 3- PgJ.J ut i on :
I 3 ;
j ELLYN R. WEISS, ESO. l
} 4 Harmon & Weinu !
j 2001 S Street, N. W. i l 5 Washington, D. C. 20009 !
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! 6 For the_ Seacoast Ant i-Pol _J ut i on Lecqtle_t j
] 7 ROBERT A. BACKUS, ESO.
j Backuu, Meyer, & Solomon t
] 8 116 Lowell Street l i Manchester, NH 03105 j l 9 h l JANE DOUGHTY f 10 Director l Seacoast Anti-Pollution League }
11 5 Market Gtreet k Portsmouth, NH 03801
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13 For the Town of Hampton: I C:) !
14 MATTHEW T. BROCK, ESO. l Shaines & McEachern j 15 25 Maplewood Avenue l P. O. Box 360 !
I 16 Portsmouth, NH 03801 l.
17 For the Towns of Hampton Falls and North l
Bampton and South Hampton f 18 l
ROBERT 4. BACKUS, ESQ. j 19 Dackus, Meyer & Solomon ;
116 Lowell Street !
20 Manchester, NH 03105 21 For the Town qf Amesbury: l I
22 WILLIAM S. LORD l Selectman j 23 Town Hall :
Amesbury, MA 01913 l 24 f 25 ;
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5 6 EXHIB115: IDEN: RECD 1 REJD: DE S,Chlf1T_10 N ,
7 SAPL 8 6-A 8393 8393 Letter, Decern ber 11, g 1987, Herzberg to E 9 Backus, two pages 10 6-13 8393 6393 Letter, Octo9er 31, 1983, Varnura to 11 Wallace, two paquG 12 6-C 8393 8393 Letter, Oc t ot>er 28,
. 198S, Varnura to 13 Wallace, two paqow 14 15 lb 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 d4
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- ED 1 PHOCEED INGS v
J' 2 JUDGE' SMITH: Corne to order. We are on the record.
t 3 Before wo went on the record -- gent l ernon. Dofore we 4 went on the record, I asked Mr. Turk if he was ready to addrenn i l
5 Applicantn' rnot ion for an order to warrant uubpoonau. Ho's not [
6 quite ready, but he will be ready thin afternoon yet. i 7 In the rneant irne, Mr. Flynn han infortnation to provide 8 which rnay af fect this inatter. Is that correct, Mr. Flynn? I 9 MR. FLYNN: You, Your Honor.
]
10 On Thursday and Friday of last week FE.MA host ed a ,
11 roeoting of the red ional Assistanco Cornrnit too, and inost of the l
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12 t irne -- rnout of the discussion at that rneetinD was devoted to f
13 consideration of the uholtoring tusue for the Seabrook beach .
10 14 population.
t l 15 As a result of that rnentinD, FEMA intends to prepare fP 16 norno supplernental teutirnony which reflects that discunuton and h 17 the advice given to FEMA by the f<ugional Assistance Cornraittee. i 18 It will take a lit t le t irne to prepare that, no I would ask that
[ 19 FEMA not be called upon to testify on that issue this week, but f f
20 we will be prepared at the next week of hearings, whenovar that
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22 JUDGE SMITH: AlI right. We'11 corne back ta that l>
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j 23 also when we address the rootton for nubpoonan or order for !
L 24 staff witnesses. l
! i 25 MR. 1URK: Your Honor, one ether raatter related to P
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839J 1 the argurount on Applicantui papur. Au the Board will recall.
2 the utaf f had rnade a request of thte Massachusettu Attornuy 3 Gonoral's of fice for discovory relating to the beach shelter 4 issue. And Mr. Olenkey telln rne that he does have norne 5 docurounts which he will provide to rno today. I havo not unen 6 t hern yet . I would like an opportuncty to review those fient 7 before I reupond to the rnotion for nubpoena.
8 JUDGE SMITH: All right. Any other prelirninary 9 buu ir ous ?
t 10 MR. DI6 NAN: Your Honor, I have -- go ahead, bob. [
11 MR. BACKUS: Couple of thingn, Your Honor.
12 First of all, at the last nession I believe, or t.ia y b t? a l,
13 the nonsion before the lant, the insuo of the letter frorn Dr.
14 Herz berg carne up, and having that adro i t t ed into the record. I g 15 have now discussed that with Attorney Lowald, and I havo 16 o bt a i nted f rorn Dr. Herzberg the two docurnentu that were referred 17 to in his lutter, and attached t h orn. I i
18 So I think we have a cornplete 1ist of raaterialn !
l 19 pertaining to the Mary Hitchcock Mernorial Hospital and its l l
20 capability to handle contarninated, injured persons, Hnd I 21 would like to furnish this letter which wau previounly l i
22 furnished to the parties, of Dec t>to ber 11, with the two 23 at t achrnent s no it wilI be c oro p l e t o.
24 1 don' t believe there would be any obje'etion t o that 25 at this t i rno.
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8390 8 7~T k b_) 1 JUDGE SMITH: Mr. Dignan? l i
e MR. DIGNANs No objection from the Applicant, Your l I
3 Honor. l l
4 JUDGE SMITH: Do these have any identification, Mr.
l 5 Dackun? l 1
6 MR. BACKUS: Pardon me? l 7 JUDGE SMITHt Should these be identified? I 8 MR. BACKOS: I think these should be identified as l l
9 supplementing and explaining the letter in I believo it's !
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10 Volume 2 from the Mary Hitchcock Hospital, which was the j I
11 uubject of communt by Attorney Binboo the day after Dr.
12 Herzberg's test imony.
13 JUDGE SMITH: How will they be treated in the record?
O- 14 An an exhibit?
15 MR. BACKUS: I' d like to have them marked as a SAPL i l 16 oxhibit. l I
I 17 JUDGE SMITH: I don' t have that exhibit number. My l 18 records are somewhere between here and Dulles Airport.
19 MR. BACKUS: Unfort unat e' y, I don' t know what the 20 most recent SAPL exhibit number was, either.
21 THE REPORTER: The next one in 6. l l
I 22 MR. BACKUS: All right. So thin would bo SApL 6, and 23 it would consist of the December 11, l 'J 8 7, letter addressed to l
, 24 ma f rota Dr. Donald L. Hurzburg. Attached to that in a lutter 25 of October 31, 1983, to Dr. William Wallace from Jamen. W.
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0391 1 Varnurn, Prouident of the Mary Hitchcock Meroorial Houpital. And 1 2 the second at t achnient also stapled thereto in_a one-page lettur 3 dated Octobur 28, 198S, f ront Mr. Varnuni to Mr. Wallace. !
l 4 JUDGF SMITH: Okay, inay I propose that those letterc 5 he nurnbered SAPL Exh i bit u 6-4, 6-8 and 6-C?
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6 MR. BACKUS: That would be fine. j 7 (The doeurounts reforced to were i
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O raarked for identification an 9 SAPL Exhibit Non. 6-A, 6-8 l 10 and 6-C.)
11 MR. BACKUS: The only other thing, Your Honor --
12 JUDGE SMITH: There are no objections to thece 13 oxhibitu an I undorntand it?
O 14 MR. LEWALD: No objection. j l
15 JUDGE SMITH: All right. SAPL Exhibit 6-A, 6-D and l 16 6-C are reconved into evidence.
17 (The docuntentu referred t o, !
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18 having been previously inarked l l
19 for identificatton an j l 9 l 20 SAPL Exhibit No. 6-A, 6-b and 21 6-C were received in evidencu )
22 M F' . BACHUS: Thank you, Your Honor. j 23 1he only other raatter in that I had had horo Dr.
24 Dagoulin as a SAPL witness than afternoon. He had to leave, 25 and I will advise thu Doard an uoon au I can au when hiu O Corporation Horitage Reporting ;
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~1 schedule-wi11 perrn i t hira to reappear, which I anticipata wi1i l
2 certainly be this week. It inay be Wednesday, however.
3 JUDGE SMITH: Al1 eight. Do you have other 4 prelitninary rnatters?
5 MR. BACKUS: No, that's all I have.
6 JUDGE SMITH: Anybody else? .
7 MR. DIGNAN: Yes, Your Honor. 1 i
8 JUDGE SMITH: Mr. Dignan. l 9 MR. DIGNAN: Yes, Your Honor, I have one probloro.
l 10 FEMA has indicated that they are going to file 11 su pplurnent a l t est i rnony. I don' t know if thin in going to j 12 represent a change in their view or what. Dut I have a panel, l
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- 13 I gueun thu next ordur of buuineau will be the sheltur panol of j
-i 14 the Applicant, which test f raony was prepared, arnong other j J
15 things, on the baniu of what FEMA's position wau in the 1 C, interrogatorien which bucarne the profiled tent iraony. 1 1
17 I would like articulated, because if FEMA in planning 18 to change the substance of it s t et.t itaony in any way, l'ra not at 19 a11 sure I want to offor the uholtce panel at thin ttrao unti1 I 20 know exactly what FLMA's position i ts . And I' ra wondering 11 we 21 can bu onlightunod, becauun thin tunt iraony responda direct ly to 22 a position that FEMA had articulated earlier.
23 JUDGE SMI'lH Mr. Flynn?
24 MR. FLYNN: Yes, Your Honor.
25 I henitate to say with 100 percent confidence what
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l 1 the FEMA tuntirnony will be, but I was at the RAC roeot ing and I 2 can say with confidence what the advice of the RAC wan. I will 3 do that.
4 The majority of the roernbers who were present - at the 5 RAC expreused the opinion that the sheltering-plan for ~~
6 excuse rne -- that the New Hampshire RadioloDical Emerguncy 7 Responso Plan with reupect to the beach population wau 8 adequate, and it's adequate an it stands. ,
9 All of the people at that HAC meetinD, all of the 10 rnernbern, felt.that the planu would be enhanced by addrencing L
11 the inuun of uhultoring for thu beach population. Ihat in to ,
i 12 nay, an explicit t reat tnant of when and whether sheltering would i
13 be appropriato, an inventory of oxinting uholtor, and, if [
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14 nheltering in considered appropriate under any cireurnstances, i i
15 some discunnion of how people wnuld be gotton to the shriltors. f i
l 16 There were uorno enemberu of the RAC who uxpressed the j j r
- 17 view that until that discunnion was furnished, the plan with i 18 respect to the beach population tu inadequate. !
l 19 The rationale for the split of opinion arnong the RAC
! 20 roembern had to do with the requirernunt in NUREG-06b4 that there i i i
- 21 be a rango of protecttvo cetionn. Thone who felt that the plan !
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! 22 was inadequate felt that way heCDuco providing for evacuation ,
i I 23 but not for shelter ruited on a ninglo protectivo action which f
' 24 did not natlufy the requirement that there be a range, f l
25 In additton, thoro was the larger quention of whether (
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- 1 the pra ctactivo act ion, namely, ovacuation, provided roanonablo 2 assurance that adequate protective touanures could be taken in j 3 the ovent of an accident.
, 4 In that dis -- well, perhaps I should just leava it l 5 at that. That wau discuuund briefly. Thore wan much moro l '
6 detailed discussion of the question of what wau required by the 7 planning Standard J which called for a range of protectivo
} 8 actions.
t 9 So in summary, then, the advice of the RAC was that !
I 10 the plans are adequato, but would bo enhanced by developing a l 1
il rationale for using sholtur or not using shelter.
12 MR. DIGNAN: Well, if I have partnionion of the Doard 13 to inquire of Mr. Flynn, thin majority that he' s talked about,
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14 was the majority a substantial majority, or was ther'o ono
. 15 holdout on the position, or what?
16 MR. FLYNN: I' ll tell you the narnou.
17 MR. DIGNAN You mean the aDunC105= i i
l 18 MR. FLYNN: Okay.
19 Those who held the view that the plan was adequate, l t
20 or the agencion whoun repronuntativen exproused that view, were i
21 NRC, Environraental Protection Agency, Department of Enurgy, i i
22 Department of Transportation, and Food and Drug Administration. !
23 1 guess FDA in part of HHS.
24 Those agenclos whose rnoraborn ex prennod the view that 25 the p l a r.n were not adequate were FEMA, Conroerce - represent ed Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 !
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v 1 by the National Oceanographic and Atmosphuric Administration -- 1 2 and the Department of Interior. 1l s
3 Thoro wan one aguncy not repronuntud, and that wan l
4 A D riculture. !
5 MR. DIGNAN: You said that-they thought it was
( 6 inadequato, but the fient timo around you said they all thought i
j 7 it should be enhanced.
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8 A rt+ these three agencies of the view that it's 9 inadequate?
10 MR. FLYNN: You. l l
11 JUDGE SMITH: Would you clarify that? l 12 I'm not nuru if those, that majority who thouDht the i
13 plan in adequate believe that it in adequato with unhancomont, l i
14 or if thoue who belic,vo that it in inadequate believe that it i 15 in inadoquato unlana it in enhanced, or a thted alturnativo, 16 whatever it might be, but I lont the thread there.
17 MR. FLYNN: The first group felt that the plan was l 18 adequat e regardless of whether anything further wau done, but .!
I 19 that it would be an enhancement to the plan if thono shulturinq !
i 20 innues were addresnard in greater detail along the linen that I _,
21 related.
l 22 The second group felt that until that was done the -- l 1 i 23 FEMA's prior Jadgment that the plan was inadoquat o wasn' t 24 changed. There wasn' t enouDh evidence to -- enough information 25 to change that earlier judgment. l
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-8390 p~T E~) 1 MR. DIGNA? :- Well, I' m somewhat confused. You nay 2 FEMA is of that position; yet FEMA wants to change its 3 testimony. Why? Why doesn' t FEMA uirnply adhere to.its prior 4 t est irnony then?
5 M R. FLYNN: We haven t f ortnu l at ed the tentimony yet,
- 6 Torn. What we plan to do in reflect what went on at the 7 rneet i n g.
8 MR. TURK: If I can add one comment, if Mr. Flynn 9 would permit rne, and I was not pronent at the meeting. I had a
> 10 report f rorn the NRC RAC mernber who wac present.
11 I'ra inforrned that the Department of Agriculture had 12 previously voted in July to say that the plans are adequate.
7- 13 Agriculture was not present at this' latest rnee t i ng ,
e dw 14 And I' ra also i n f o rrn e d that I believe Interior, 15 Department of Interior' n reprenentat ive, was not present at 16 this ineet ing, but Mr. Thoman represented to the ROC mernberu how 17 that individual would have voted.
18 JUDGE SMITH: Any other preliminary businenn?
19 MR. TRAFICONTE: Yes, Your Honor. John Traficonte 20 from the Mann. AG' n of fice.
l 21 I had discunned with Mr. Dignan and Mr. Turk the 22 followinD rnat t er t hat ' s corne up in the i nt er i ta since the last ,
t 23 session, and we would like, not necosuarily to ar0ue this i
24 matter now, but certainly to present it to the Board at the 25 earliest pousible t i rne. If the Doard wants to hear a Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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k ' i diEcussion and argurnent today. that ' s fine with us.
2~ It concerns in part the s'chedule for the }itigation 3 on the Mass. plan, and as a preliminary to that, it concerns 4 the redacted i nfor. cat i ors that the plan did not have in it back 5 in September when it was first submitted.
6 It is our understanding that, as of at least Decernber 7 30th or thereabouts, first of the year, a weak or so ago, the 8 Applicant has provided FEMA and the NRC staff with the redacted 9 information.
i 10 We have a letter which I' m sure was sent to the 11 service list frota PSNH, New Harapshire Yankee, dated December 12 30, 1987. It's a cover letter that transmitted a series of l
13 enclosures to the document room, filling the gap on information I
14 in the plan as it was originally filed in Septernber.
15 Importantly, howe er, there are a couple of j 16 enclosures that contain, and I think the key here is the names 17 and addresses of the individuals who have been lined up by the 18 utility to function as emergency workers. Those enclosures 19 have continued to be redacted, and I'ra a li t t le pu::a led. Mr.
20 Turk, who I spoke with on this rnatter on Friday, was in part '
21 helpful, or partially helpful, l
22 I understand that sorncone at the NRC did receive this l 23 in forraa t i on, and i t 's aluo ray underst and ing that FEMA now has l
L 24 that i n f ortnat i on.
23 The enclosures, however, were not sent to the service O
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- a- i list, so I don' t believe Your Honors have that information, Mr.
2 Turk didn' t get the information, nor did any of the other 3 parties get the information.
4- We think that at the very earliest that it's possible 5 to direct our attention to it, we think that the Board should 6 focus on the issue of the continued redaction of those portions 7 of the Mass. plan, because we feel, as a party to the
.8 litigation on that plan, that the names and addresses are a 9 crucial coroponent of the full plan. The Commission indicated 10 that itself whtn it addressed the low power issue on the stay, 11 and it's also clear to us that FEMA and the Staff needs the
- 12. names.and addresses co adequately review the plan, and we feel
. 13 we are in the same boat. We need the names and addresses to
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14 adequately review the plan.
15 It occurs t o rou that the Applicant may well push 'n 16 to us the burden of trying to obtain those names through a 17 norrna l discovery channel and/or a Freedora of Information Act.
- 18 And it's that that we' d like to cut off if we can right now, 19 because at least the Massachusetts AG's of fice doesn' t believe 20 it's appropriate that critical components of the Mass. plan not j 21 be provided to the Commonwealth, and that we' d have to go 22 through the cumbersome and time-censuming process of a Freedorn 23 of Inforraation Act or a norroal discovery request for what we 24 consider to be essential elements of the plan.
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ld' 1 to address that. Obviously w9' d like the Board to order that 2 that inforrnation that's already been provided to the Staf f and 3 FEMA be provided to the other litigants. But if rnore 4 sophisticated ar g urnent is necessary, we would like to schedule S that.
6 MR. DIGNAN: Your Honor, the difficulty is very 7 s i ro p l e. This first carne up arnong rayself and the Cornroonwealth 8 down before the staff, and not Mr. Traficonte, but another 9 Assistant Attorney General was there. I said you want you.
10 You agree to a protective under the auspices of the Board, you 11 can have it. And I was told the Cornroonwealth would not agree 12 to a protective order. That's what the fight is going to be ,
13 about, Your Honor.
O V 14 I have no desire to keep it a necret. I just want it 15 under a protective order no that I can protect these people 1G frorn possible harannrnent who have agreed to cooperate with us.
17 And if the Coraroonwealth today representu they will 18 enter into an appropriate protective order, this problern will 19 go away within 48 hourn. Mr. Traficonte and I could draft _t 20 over a rnart i n i tonignt.
21 On the other hand, t he Corarnonwea l t h' u pcsition is l
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( 22 they won' t take it under a protective order. Then the Board is i
23 going to have to resolve it au far an I ' ra concerned.
l l 24 JUDGE SMITH: I infer you were not aware of that.
25 MR. TFd1FICON1E No, I was. I wan at t t.e meeting, O
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j 2 attorney with the Mass. AG' tt office. 1 was present. .
! i 3 I ara aware of that, and I understand that they would f i :
4 want a protective order. But we take the position that it k 4
U would be theiru to request. We think it' n- quite clear that the
' I j 6 inforraation should be autornatically be raade available to un at -
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7 the time in fact when it'u made available to the NRC Staff and !
< 6 l 8 FEMA. !
! I 9 If they don' t want the information made available to l l
10 uu, they should come before the Board and raake out a case for a j 11 protective order. We don' t believe there are any groundo for a f t
12 protective order. I' ve been trying to bend my raind as to how ;
i I 13 there can be a privacy claim in these contracts to supply l 0
14 uurvice in the event of an emergency, and I can' t see i privacy 15 right there, and certainly not a privacy right that atteches to l l
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16 the utility. j 17 If it's anything, the utility in here arguing the j l ,
i 18 privacy right of another party, and there in no evidence that
, I L 1 19 those other parties have requested that the inforraation be j 6
20 held - l 21 JUDGE SMITH: How roany people are involved? !
l 22 MR. TRAFICONTE: Hundreds, I annume. !
23 M R. DIGNAN: A lot, Your Honor. My understanding !
I 24 it'u a lot. I don' t want to make a reprouentation, becaune I ;
I 25 just don' t know. I' d have to check with people, but it's a l
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i i fair nurnber of people.
t I 2 JUDGE SMITH: Well, I --
3 MR. DIGNAN: I rne an, Your Honor rnay conclude that the 4 Cornrnonwea l t h is right. I' ra sayir g that I don' t want to be left 5 in the a position that we' re not beinD -I have told t h ern they f' 6 could have it as soon as I' ve got a protective order. If they 7 want it without a protective order, they are going to have to i
8 convince Your Honor that that's the case. We' re going to have l
a
! 9 to have a legal arg urnent before I'11 go along with that. .
I L
10 MR. TRAFICONTE: I' d reverse it and say we should {
( >
t l 11 have the in fortnat i on. It'n part of the plan. If they want a i i l
{ 12 protective order -- l f
! 13 MR. DIGNAN: Your prob l ern is it's filed under 2.790, :
, . l l 14 Mr. Traficonte, and that's where it's going to stay until 1
1
( 15 sornebody rnakes a rnove to take it out f rorn under, and I' rn not j
- 16 going to do that. So that puts the ball squarely in your l I )
( 17 court, at we nay. l I
)
18 MR. TRAFICONTE: Well, I' rn not sure there in ar:y !
- l
( 19 precedent -- I ' rn rot sure there in any precedent for filing a j 20 plan, essential parts of a plan an protected under 2.790. That l l
21 would be a quention of precedent. j
. i f 22 MR. DlbNAN: That question han never disturbed rn e, f l
23 Mr. Traficonte. I think raaking law in fun. j 24 JUDGE SMITH: Okay. Well, that'n enough.
l i
25 MR. TURK: Your Honor, .just so the record in clear [
'Ov l Heritage Reporting Corporation f (202) 628-4888 l l
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3;
'8409 l L -- 1 with regard to what the NRC Staff has.
2 None of the Staff reviewers nor the project rnanager-1 1 1 3- have copien of thin redacted i n f ortnat ion. I t ' s ray 1 J . i d
4 understanding that the utility rnade a subrninnion of nurnerous !
l -1 l
f 5 copies to the docketing section of NRC, but no far it han not ;
j- 6 gone cut to ray reviewers and to rny project rnanager. I I
i 7 And Mr. Flynn and I .just converned, and Mr. Flynn I I
I 8 inforrned rne he's not aware of whether FEMA han in fact received i j
9 the i n f orrnat i on. I guess i t 's our cornrnon understanding that it i
10 probably was nubrnitted, but we' re not aware that we have it in l l
11 our agencies in any particular pornon' n hands. i l
12 MR. TRAFICONTE:. Your Honor, I did raine thin in the 13 context of scheduling the litigation on the Masu. plan which I
.O.
14 know, Your Honor, it's of concern to the board, it's a concern. l l
15 to all of un. And I underutood frorn the last nousion that we !
'i 16 were Doing to address that innue early on thin week. ;
I 17 And I don't know what that uch2dule is going to look {
f l 18 1ike, but thin i n f ortnat i on, and our capacity to digest it and l 19 review it, in for un part and parcel of adequate review of the f 20 plan, and therefore it would factor into our view of what an ;
i 21 appropriate schedule for 1itigation of that plan is. ;
22 If we don' t get the inf ortant ion f or nix weekn or f f
23 seven wooku, it ueeran that that in really an --- that {
l 24 unnecennarily delays our initial reviews. l I
25 JUDGE SMITHS The inforraat ton again being the narneu :
\
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l :~%f')T ' 1 and addressen of those who have agreed to provide services. I i
j Et304 2 MR. TRAFICONTE: Exactly. l 1
i j' t305 3 MS. WEISS: Mr. Chairman, it's my underutanding under ,
i i 4 2.790 that the Staff has to make a determination whether a -
!. t j 5 request to hold material confidential in made, au to whether it j i
l 6 in or is not entitled to be treated with confidentiality. f l l j 7 That's how 1 read 2.790. i i !
l 8 JUDGE SMITH: I think 2.790 is a-Duvernment privilege ,
( 9 section. It's the exemptions to the Freedorn of Information Act j i 10 codified by the NRC. l
! I I 11 Nevertheless, if an argument of that nature can be l i 12 made persuasively by a private party, we would entertain the !
i f '
l 13 argument at leaut, just as a matter of the integrity of the j I
14 hearing record, and the problemn alluded to by Mr. Dignan, if f i
} 15 in fact they exiut. j l l 16 We have had a little thread, and I don' t want to l 17 characterize it too sharply, we have had, at leaut from my l f
I 18 diutant vantage point, a little thread of people who have !
I f 19 contracted for service, or have nigned little letters of l l 20 agreement, being contacLed, and suddenly those letters of l
I i
21 agreement seem to have the force that they were thought to have l 1
f 22 to begin with. I 1
23 MS. WEISS: There are a variety of possible --
i 24 JUDGE SMITH: Yen. l i
25 MS. WEISS: -- reason for that. l I
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2LJ 1 JUDGE SMITH: Right, exactly, and that'iu an area 2 that I think would be appropriate for us to inquire into,' but [
t 4 3 I' m . not prepared to do it now. f 4 ~ MS. WEISS: Mine was junt a procedural question an I !
I l f
, 5 read the rule and just glanced through it briefly sitting here. {
3 6 There has been a request made of the Staff to hold i !
7 that information confidential. The Staff in required by that I l l 8 rule to make a judgment an to whether that material in entitled 9 to be treated as confidential material under those rulas. ;
t l 10 JUDGE SMITH: The Staf f doesn' t have it. No i -
l j 11 government agency han it. j l :
12 MS. WEISS: No, the NRC staff has got it, j
. . 13 MR. TURK: It'n my understanding that -- 5 4 14 JUDGE SMITH: Oh, I' m sorry. ;
- 9 l 15 MR. TURK: It's my understanding that tho' utility !
16 submitted copies of it to the docketinD nection, but my :
l i
i j 17 revieween don't have it in their handu yet. ;
7 18 MS. WEISS: We certainly have the cover letter that !
i
{ 19 purports to do that.
I l
20 JUDGE SMITH: All right. I see. l l
21 So there was a requent by the utility to -- it's !
22 proprietary information -- to hold it confidential. It'n [
f 23 proprietary information. l 1
1 24 MR. DIGNAN: Yen. I mean, the argument in that 2.790 j i
25 haun' t been used thin way and I quite agree. I don' t know that [
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! 840; 4 i f D 1 it han been.
2 JUDGE SMITH: Well, but proprietary infortnation han 3 been used quite often in --
l 1
i 4 MR. DIGNAN: Oh, yeah, but I rnean the argurnent beinD i d
5 that proprietary infortnat ion would have norno econornic, and I ,
4 l l 6 can raake an argurnent that it 's econornic. I t !
i j 7 What I basically did here, Your Honor, wau get the i !
O bal1 rol1ing by nubrait t 2 ng in under 2.790, and I ' ra going to try l 9 to pernuade the Board under itu jurisdiction to give rou the l
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10 protection I need. i
- I
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11 It wan ray understanding this what han happened down l l
- I j 12 in Shoreharn; that the Board han put a protective order on this !
, e 1
l j 13 nort of raaterial when requested. !
O 14 Now, rnaybe Your Honor won' t agree with toe or not, but l
15 there's a sirnple solut ion for the Corntnonwealth, and it' n called j 16 when the contentions are uut, a rnotion for discovery, and they 17 can see if they can get it. l 18 The other thing they can do in try to pornuade the ,
1 19 Staff, I suppose, to give it to thern without rny having a run at 20 it. l i
21 And the third thing they can do, an I' ve tried to get !
l 22 across t o thorn, uit down, work a decent protecttve order out l 23 with ro e , and they can have it tornorrow an far an I rn concerned. i 24 I don' t underntand why anybody inn' t willing to go into that l l
f 25 hind of a protective order, but that'n their boniness.
)O l-Heritage Reporting Corperation o
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i-i 1 JUDGE SMITH: I underntand you are not wi11ing to --
i 2 i 3 MR. TRAFICONTE: No, and_just so the record is clear i i
\ l j 4 on that, we represent the Attorney General of the Cornrnonwealth ~ !
i l 5 of Massachusetts, and we' re not about'to enter into a i I
i
!' 6 protective order on the -- fient, on holding this in forrnat ion ;
i !
i 7 confidential when the inf orraat ion involves the crucial '!
i f 8 personnel aspects of the plan subraitted by the utility for the f i ;
. 9 areas in Massachusetts. We don' t see anything confidential or l 5 !
l 10 private that would n' t be a inatter of public record. l
}. !
! 11 So philosophically we' re not for keeping the !
f 12 inforraat ion confident ial. -
l t
! 17 MS. WEISS: Sorne of the st uf f on itn face the clairn
! ;O
' 14 in without rner i t . Thuy are clairning that you can keep the narne .!
f 15 of a' corporate entity confidential because of personal privacy. !
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i 16 ;
I l, l 17 You know, and the law is clear that there are no l
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l 18 c i rcurnst anceu under which he can do that. [-
I.
i 19 JUDGE SMITH: I think that we have a very new j 20 situation here. The request for confidentiality in predicated ;
21 upon a unique situation, or not unique, but very unuisual, and 22 probably rare in civil proceedings and unusual in NRC I
23 proceedingu, and it in the concern, however well founded or not I f
l 24 founded, the concurn that those who have agreed to cooperate in i 25 the plan will uorneh ow for that reanon suffer adverne offectn. j i
D Heritage Reporting Corporation l
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84O's J 1 And if that'u the case, I don' t know. It' u 2 sornet h i n g that we rni ght look at. I don' t know. We want to 3 consider it. I don' t rule it out. We have paralleln in other 4 aspectu, thone who have raised safety concernu.
5 MS. WE!3S: I don't think there in any quen .on that 6 that's the c l a i rn, but, you know, I would just raay be take 7 another cut at the point that Mr. Traficonte i n raaki ng.
8 I think there in a burden t o do rnore than c l a i rn t h a t .
9 There is a burden to provide sorne factual support for the 10 ar g u rnent that either the people want to be protected, or that 11 there in any risk to those people, or any potential harrn to 12 thoue people at all, and t hat ' n a burden that, thenc rules 13 would provide, has to be raet in the a f firraat ive by the pornon 14 seeking to keep the rnaterial cor f ident ial .
l l 13 JUDGE SMITil: Okay.
16 MR. 1 F e tt I ',0N T E : Junt the final point i n, of coutce, 17 it's their plan and it's au good in part as the personnel they 18 have lined up. And at bot t ora I guess I have the problera of 19 withholding thin i nf orraat t on unt i 1 what point? Unti1 an 20 ernergency occurn?
21 I ra e a n, at sorne point this in public i n f orroat i on.
22 JUDGE SAIlH: That'u another ar g urne n t . It'n going to 23 have to be -- an I stated with respect to the discovery diuputo 24 that we cloned on, it's g o i n t) to have to be unpeeled, which in ab -- I real ] y roeant ta nay pool -- one 1ayer at a t irne until we 1
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J, y- 1 ident i fy everyone's interent, leg i t irnat e inter ent, the
}- 2 balaneings that wi11 have to be done, what if any precedent we i
4 3 have, and all those things, and'I don' t think that anybody in f- A ready to argue it right now, are you?
! 5 MR. DIGNAN: I' rn not .
1 i 6 MR. TRAFICONTEr How can we proceed on it then in
, 7 terrns of expedient resolution of what we think in - l L 8 JUDGE SMITH: Well, let's see exactly what our j
! 9 difforencen are. l
( !
l 10 You clairn, and you are . joined by Ms. Weiss, you clairn l 1 i l 11 that it in public i n f o rtn a t i o n . Ms. Weinu clairns and you clairn l !
T.
12 that, in any event, there is a burden upon t1r. Dignan to l i )
~
i . 13 estahlich that it is to be protected.
! "O. 14 And then you rnake the further clairn that, after all, l f 15 you can' t keep it secret forever, because thin inforrnat ion will l 1
16 have to be utilized in the public dornain sooner or later.
, I l 17 That's basically it.
i 18 MR. TRAFICONTE: And that it's in the public domain l
1 19 now once it was produced to FEMA and the Gtaff for review, l
20 which occurred in the i nt er i rn between our seunions here. They l I
21 have dinclosed the i n f orraat i on. They had withheld it even frorn j i
22 the NRC during the ar D urne nt over low power and the stay on the j i
23 low power. They had redacted it uven to the NRC. l l
24 On Decernber 30, they nublaitted the i n f orraat i on, they ]
l 25 rnade it public and it'u now being -- !
I 10 Heritage Reporting Corporation !
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i ) 1 JUDGE SMITH: To whom?
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2 MR. TRAFICONTE: To FEMA and to the NRC Staff.
i
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3 JUDGE SMITH: Oh, I see.
f 4 MR. DIGNAN: Mr. Traficonte, I' m sure you are tryinD i
l 5 to paint a complete picture, and I uungent you also disclose to ,
! 6 the Board the circumstances under which it was submitted, and
! 7 the statements that were made by the executive director of t
l 8 operations at the meeting that led up to the submission.
( 9 M R. TRAFICONFE: Are you referring to the affidavit 1 !
j 10 that is attached to the cover letter -- 1 L
11 MR. DIGNAN: No, I' m talking about what ~~ 3 i 12 MR. TRAFICONTE: -- or the stat ercent s down in .
I i .
13 l Washington?
14 MR. DIGNAN: -- the executive director of operations j 6
t j 15 said the Staff was willinD to accept the documents under, under 2 i J g
16 what rules. t t
j i 17 MR. TRAFICONTE: Well, go ahead. I' m certainly not l I !
! 18 trying to give a partial story. Maybe I' m just not aware of '
19 what you -- l u i 20 MR. DIGNAN: My recollection is the executive j 21 director of operations indicated that the NRC Staff was l 22 prepared to take this material to Det the ball rolling. And it f i l 23 I overstate his case, I' m sure Mr. Turk will say differently.
i 24 And he also indicated that the staff would have to 1 l 25 make a determination, and that if a determination wan made that i !
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i j
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1J 1 they couldn' t koop it, then perhap_ the information would have l
^- l 2 to be taken back by the Applicant.
l l
- 3. So it wasn' t simply a submission out to the Staff l l
l' 1~
4 with a ho,-hum, and let's see what happens. -There was a lot l l 5 more behind it than that. j
! i
! 6 M R. TRAFICONTE: Okay. Actually, I' m not aware of a i
! 1 7 that. Did he indicate that he was going to accept it and hold j l
! i
- 8 it confidentially? ;
l !
l 9 MR. DIGNAN: That was my reading of what he said, i i
4 ,
! 10 until such time as his lawyers advised him to the contrary. At f' 11 which time we would be in a position then'to see whether we f l 1 l- 12 wanted to leave it in a position where it had to be given up, l
.,-.q 13 or could take court action to prevent it. j
. !3_1 1
. 14 MR. TRAFICONTE: .All.right. j j , !
! 15 M R. DIGNAN: So it was hardly just a throwinD it down )
l l
{ 16 there and sueing wnat comes up. l
- 17 MR. TRAFICONTE: All right. Is Mr. Turk aware of any l i
18 of these developments, because this i s something that he and I l i l 19 had a discussion on Friday on this, and I knew nothing of that.
l l
! i j 20 Mr. Turk, are you aware of this pledge on the part of l l' !
21 counsel for the NRC Staff to hold this confid -- l 22 MR. DIGNAN: There was no pledge by counsel for the l l
23 NRC Staff, Mr. Traficonte. There is a transcript of the l
24 meeting at which it took olace in which the executive director 1
25 of operations of- the agency mado certain representations, not I)
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i f 2 MR. TRAFICONTE: I see. l i 3 MR. TURK: And I assume we' re only talking about J' g 4 things stated by the executive director of operations --
- 5 MR. DIGNAN: That's correct, that's correct, Mr.
1.
6 Turk.
r l 7 MR. TURK: Your Honor, there was a rneeting on 8 December 22, in Bethesda, and the rneeting was transcribed. I l
i !
j 9 wouldn' t say that Mr. Dignan has mischaracterized the EDO's ;
f 1 10 statements, but I think 'ho context was, or at least the intent !
11 that I perceived in the words of the EDO were, that the i
1 12 Applicant could subrnit the infortnation under a claim of '
l !
] 13 privilege, and the NRC Staff would attempt to respect that ;
I j 14 clairo of proprietary privilege. But if it was found that we l l i 15 cculd not protect it, we wo.41da' t. ;
2 J 16 JUDGE SMITH: Would not, t 1 i a
i l 17 MR. TURK: Would not. i i- !
! 18 JUDGE SMITH: But by the Cornmission's own regulat ion, l I
l 19 you are required to consider whether the infortnation was (
! c l
20 submitted to you with an expectation of confidential treatment. j f
i !
! 21 MR. TURK: I' m sorry, I missed -~ !
i l
I 22 JUDGE SMITH: Well, under 2. 790 (a) (1) -- no -- under i r
23 2. 790 (b) (4) (i i i) , the Commission is required to consider 24 whether the inforroat ion was t ranstn i t t ed to and received by the 25 Cornm i ss i on in confidence, and they are also required if the f Heritage Reporting Corporation ]
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3 You know, they just. can' t disregard it. I mean, they It a
I 4 have to give it some consideration. f.
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5 MR. TURK: 'I f I understand you, you are saying the ,
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- . 6 Staff has to consider whether or not the privilege pertains. j
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l 7 JUDGE SMITH: That's right. l l
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8 MR. TURK: Yes, and that's something that will be !
9 done. l 10 But there has been no pledge to date, or no aDreement f 5
l 11 to date where the NRC Staff, through the EDO or any other i
12 petson, has said, yes, this is privileged information and i
13 untitled to protection under 10 CFR 2.790.
7 3-
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14 MR. DIGNAN: If I was thought to be saying that, I i
j i
15 wasn' t , Mr. Turk. !
1 2
16 My difficulty is Mr. Traficonte is saying to the :
17 Ocard, well, something is wrong because Dignan's got it down i
18 there in the hands of the Staff. And I just wanted the Board i J
19 to understand I d idn' t just throw it down in the hands of the j i
1 20 staff. I did what I can do to protect it. l f
21 I quite agree with Mr. Turk; there has been no pledge !
1 22 of confidentiality Diven to the Applicant to date. But I think i
(- 23 a reading of that transcript fairly says the EDO said they l I
24 would be willing to receive it this way. And then as I j 25 understand it, their lawyers are going to look at it, and l l
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l 2 as they-customarily do.
3 It.wasn't just flipped down there with the' hope that I
- 4 somebody would keep it confidential. .
[
5 MR. TRAFICONTE: Your Honor 3 this is the situation. .
j G Their inaction is going to solve it.
l l 7 I then understand that'this may not have been .i 1 l l' 8 appropriate to bring to the Board's attent ion, although Mr. l
! l
[
1 9 Turk and I discussed that exact procedure on Friday. I' d take j l
t ,
i, 10 it then the NRC Staff is going to make the'first cut on whether
(
l 11' we' re going to get this information; isn' t that rignt, Mr. l i
I 12 Turk? l i
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- 13 MR. TURK: I really don' t krvow what procedure wil.1 be !
14 followed.
l 15 Normally, if there is a request for confidentiality [
!; 16 made, as has been dene in this case by the Applicant, and the .
I l-
' 17 documents are held with the understanding that there is a f I.
i 18 request for confidentiality, they won' t be disclosed in the ;
4 19 first instance, I imagine, unless somebody asks for those l f
20 documents to be produced under 10 CFR 2.790. f I
l 21 MS. WEISS: That's a misinterpretat ion. l C
, 22 JUDGE SMITH: I think what Mr. Traficonto has done l 23 now, he has availed himself of the hearing process in the first i
24 instance to informally try to resolve it, and I take it as an !
l 25 informal discovery request, which sort of leap-trogged the l Heritage Reporting Corporation j (202) 628-4888 j o
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2 MR. TURK: Well, who is the request being made of?
3 JUDGE SMITH: The Board right now.
- 4 MR. TURK: As I understand it, the request is to the 5 Applicant to produce the inforrnation to the other parties. I 6 don' t see that there has been a request for disclosure rnade to 7 the Staff.
8 JUDGE SMITH: Not yet. Mr. Traficonte has predicted 9 that he's going to come to the Board and ask the Board to 10 require that the information be released. All he's asking now 11 is it be scheduled for argument. But I infer that he hopes to 12 have it worked out i n fortna l l y, and if not, he' l l make a forraal
.j-m 13 discovery request in thia hearing under the dincovery >'ulen if 14 it comes to that.
15 MR. TURK: If I can pass back for a rnoment.
16 I understand the Board's corament s. I want to refer 17 back to one st ateraent which oerhaps needs some clari f icat ion.
18 There is an affidavit submitted with the Applicant's 19 letter of Decernber 30th which transmitted the plans with 20 information. The affidavit is signed by Ted Feigenbaum. On 21 PaDe 3 it indicates "that the inforrnat ion has been t ranstnit t ed 22 to and received by the Commission in confidence."
23 And I sirnply want to put on the record that I arn not 24 aware, and I have indicated to Mr. Traficonto that I arn not
, 25 aware, that there has been any pled D e of confidentiality issued Heritage Reporting Corporation l (202) 628-4888 l
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2 1 by the NRC Staff or the Commission with respect'to these
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l '2 documents, and no statements have been made, to ray 'tnowledge, 3 beyond the statements made in the transcribed meeting of I l
4- December 22nd. j i {
if 5 JUDGE SMITH: Right, and that's what I would expect. {
i
[ G I don't think you really could give a pledDe of 1
l 7 confidentiality. i e.
{
[ 8 Why is this, right now, and we' re Doing to be having, 3
l 9 I assume, a request for normal discovery with respect to the !
l 10 Massachusettu plan in due course. Now you are just hoping to 11' cut short a discovery dispute?
l 1
! 12 MR. TRAFICONTE: Well, in two ways it seeras relevant j 1
l 13 now, i- f I
14 First, we hoped it was even more basic than a j
[-
i 15 discovery requent. We see it as a component part of the plan, j 16 and we don *t think that under normal circumstances you need {
). 17 raake a diur:overy request to get essential elementu of the plan j f
18 itself. That's the first point. l i
l 19 The second point is, as I said at the outust, for us !
f 20' it's connected to the scheduling of the litigation on the Mass. l
! 21 plan, which I know the Board is going to address, I thought, if ,
l 22 not today, soon, this week, Mr. D i gnan' s request. We, I think, l
23 all want to know where we' re headed on that. And if it's going j
[
t j
24 to take us six, seven or eight weeks to get this information j 1 \
! 25 through a discovery request or some Freedom of Information Act !
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11 / 1 request, we view ourselves at a disadvantage.
2 FEMA and the Staff are reviewing critical personnel 3 information. I believe FEMA started that review, and, Joe, you 4 can correct me if I' m wronD, but down in Washington, you 5 indicated, your agency indicated you' re going to begin that 6 review last week.
7 So review is beginninD on a plan that's going to be G litigated soon, and we don' t have it.
9 JUDGE SMITH: Okay.
10 MR. TRAFICONTE: And, you know, that is something we 11 just wanted to call the Board's at tent ion to, and ask that it 12 be -- in some sense that the situation be harmonized as between 13 the litigants here.
~'O' 14 JUDGE SMITH: Would you characterize -- what is the 15 r.ature of the services that these people have agreed to -- .
16 MR. DIGNAN: Your Honor, I don' t know if you have the 17 sucmission that was made, but the affidavit descrious them this 18 way. Enclosure 3, emergency plan, Appendix As names, 19 locations and other information that would identify certain 20 persons and organizations who have agreed or contracted to 4
21 supply services, resources and facilities to support the plan. ,
22 Enclosure 4, emergency plan, Appendix C: Letters of 23 agreement, names, letterheads and other information that would 24 identify certain perconn and organizotions whv have aDreed or 25 contracted to supply services, resources and facilitieu to Heritage ReportinD Corporation (202) 628-4888
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s/ 1 support the plan.
' 2 MR. TRAFICONTE: He is reading from an affidavit, !
3 Your Honor, that's an attachment to that cover letter. About t
t ;
4 three or foua pages down, there's an af fidavit. [
T 5 MR. OIGNAN: And Enclosure 6, emergency plan, t l .
l j 6 Appendix M: Names, addresses and other information which would i i :
t 7 identify persons or organizations who have agreed or contracted 1 i
j 8 to provide host facilities and resources and services, road !
i f 9 crews, bus and ambulance services. t I
j 10 You know, there's no kidding what.this is all about, l 11 Your Honor. You have, as you always do, delicately put it, !
c ;
I 12 there is a thread of indications that agreements that we have ;
! 13 with people come apart, and we want to protect those names as l l CE)-
14 long as we can, e
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i 15 Now, in terms -- as I said, as far as the i l l l 16 Commonwea l t h ' s review is concern, I stand right here, I have :
the authority of my client right now under an appropriate I i 17 1 I l 1 l 6 18 protective order to agree to give thtm overything. And I i 19 frankly don' t underst and why somebody won' t just take it under !
+
i 20 a protective order. They can fight with me later about whether
} 21 to get relief from the protective order so they can'make it l l
l
} 22 public. But they can have it under a protective order right i
i i l 23 now. l JUDGli SMITH: What would be - - do you have any l
! 24 i l
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j 25 position as to what the Board might do if we ordered release of l I l
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8420-1 this information, and stomehow the agreements did-start to come 2 apart, what evidentiary inferences, if any, we could make,.or 3 is there anything that could be done along.that line?
4 I guess-in the ideal world this in information that S should be public. But at the same time we did recognize a-G thread, or at least we' re conscious of that possibility. But 7 at the same time we would be awfully upset i f, in a hearing 8 that we' re conduct ing, if information produced in the hearing 9 was used to improperly attack the parties. That's a difficult 10 thing.
11 MR. DIGNAN: I understand you would be, and'this is 12 why I thought the protective order would be the solution, f
, . 13 Lecauno I have no doubts that my friends who represent the ,
O' 14 Commonwealth of Mausac.1usetts, if they are unoer a protective l 15 order, will not violate that protective order. That will 16 remain confider.tial, and I assume that's true of any at torney '
, 17 in this room, and they will obey the protective order, and the 18 problem will not arise of arguing why somebody did somethir.g. ;
19 And I think that that's the way to go here.
20 Now, there can come a point, I quite agree, a f t er 1
l 21 contentions are sett led and we' re in litigation, where some i 22 party can honestly feel that the public disclosure of some of 23 these names is necessary to make their point. At which time !
i 24 they can, in the time-honored manner of litigation, come to the i
25 Judge and say, Your Honor, I would like relief from the l
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[d) i protective order in order to raake thin information public
- 3 i 2 during the course of the hearing. .
! 3 And at that point, assurning that sornebody wishes to j 4 persist to keep that particular infortnat ion f corn public 5 disclosure, there is all kinds of rernadies the Board can order )
i 6 such as an in camera session, or rnaybe the IJoard will say no,
. 7 we' re sat isfied at this point that it just has to be rainde ,
4
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J-8 public. ;
t
! 9 I just don' t understand why a protective order is not I
! 10 the way to go on this. They can have it t ornorrow. They [
f 1
j 11 haven' t lost any right to litigate later with rne whether or not 1
l 12 the order should continue to rernain in effect, and everybody is l l
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13 protected. ,
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! U. 1 JUDGE SMITH: Well, 1 was thinking perhaps of L
j 2 interfering with the Applicants' contractual obli Dations, l 3 rights, which could be a separate cause of action, but I rnean L
f 4 within this case, that is of raajor concern. Otherwise, I agree !
5 it should be generally public. ;
i 6 MR. TURK: Your Honor, it roay help if I --
7 MR. DIGNAN: I was -- I arn sorry. l 8 MR. TURK: I was going to offer to illutninat e what !
l 9 these different types of cornpanien or providers of services f 10 are, if it would help the Board, I risuld do that in a rnornent.
) l l 11 The Staff requented frorn the uti1ity in Decernbor, 1
I. i i 12 there was a telephone corarnunicat ion on Decernbar 1Sth, and it :
i l l 13 was followed up by a let ter of Decernbar 23rd, in which the i i
l O 14 Staff requested that the folroqinD information be provided: the 15 name of a hospit al identified in the plan; the locations of the l l
16 EOC, CCC, RC and SA; -- those arc different ernergency response j i
j 17 facilities on a particular roap in the plan -- r,aa.eu of j I
18 cornpani es and their authorized representatives, providers, and l; 19 individuals who have entered into agreernent letters; location i
20 of agricultural producers in the ingest ion ernergency planninD ,
[
21 zone; identification of host faci 1ities; narnes and inventory of i p
22 road crew cornpanies under letter of agreernent ; narnes of bus, j f
23 arnbu l ance, snow rernoval, wheelchair van cornpanien under letter [
24 of agreernent ; and narnes of congregate care centers, host school F
25 facilities and other special facilities.
O :
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- 1. 1 And in addition, I have a bus dispatch pefority for
{ 2 the Town of West Newbury.
- 3 JUDGE SMITH
- Okay.
4 j 4 MR. BRDCK: Your Honor, could I be heard just l-j 5 briefly?
j 6 I understand your comment about not -- or considering !
i
{ 7 some protective order which would not interfere with the 1 t i 8 Applicants' contractual rights; and just so that it is clear on j i
i 9 the record, we feel, at least with respect to the New Hampshire i i
10 plans, we have raised questions about the validity of some of ;
i 11 those letters of agreement and whether there are actually i :
- 12 personnel behind the letters. l I
! 13 And certainly we would think that it in wholly j ii I:) 14 appropriate and necessary to, again, whatever companies or 15 Individuals letters of agreement had been entered into with l l
16 respect to M'ssachuset ts, that we would be able to go behind
- 1
.7 that, consuit wich these people; and if we feel for whatever 18 reason, the people aren' t to be provided in accordance with the j i
19 letters, we would be able to produce that in evidence, Your l 3
20 Honor. !
21 We think that's crit ical evidence. l 22 JUDGE SMITH: Yes, that's -~
I don' t think it is l 1
23 going to be very practical to have a protective order that }
I 24 would prohibit parties from interfering with contractual i
relations, and also allow them to point out pousible i 26 I
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1 inadequacies of the contractor's plan, and I don' t know, it is 2 a very difficult problem.
t 3 But I think it is a real concern. As we have heard 4 over the weeks here, with the atmosphere that might prevail 5 over there, that releasing these names could adversely affect G the Applicants' contractual rights.
7 And we are looking for a balance. We are lookinD for 8 some kind of a balance.
9 MR. BROCK: As you know, I --
10 JUDGE SMITH: Mr. Backus, if you have comments to 11 make to the Board, make them verbally, okay?
12 MR. BACKUS: Okay, I will. I wan juut going to nay, 13 Your Honor, I think the attdosphere of which you speak, if it O .14 e x i c,t s, in simply a fact that we have to deal with it and wo 15 ca r.no t --
, 16 JUDGE SMITH: That in right, you are right.
17 MR. BACKUS: I think that it in a fact, and I think i
18 that whatever that atmosphere may be, and however it may be 19 perceived, I don' t think that can be handled by denying the 20 public, including my clierts, the right to this inforraation 21 which is part of the plaa.
22 JUDGE SMITH: Right.
23 Well, I am not saying you are right. But I am 24 telling you are very pernuasive on one-half of the p ro b l ern.
25 MR. BACKUS: Well, I am junt uaying that you -- ,
f r
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1- - 1 JUDGE SMITH: That.you are --
2 MR. DACKUS: And you say that a balance has to be 3 struck. And all that I can say is that from my point of view, 4 --
5 JUDGE SMITH: The balance is on your side.
6 MR. DACKUS: It has to ce struck on the side of 7 public disclosure of these people that are supposed to perforra 8 public responsibilities in the event of an ernergency.
9 JUDGE SMITH: That rercains to be seen.
10 Certainly there is a strong, strong public interest 11 in making public inforraation public. We recognize that.
12 We are aware of the various problerns and nuances of
. . 13 it, and I don' t know if we are aware of any solution to it, but .
14 we will set it down for further discussion and hope that 15 something can be worked out.
16 Although, in this instance, I arn rather pesuirnistic.
17 Now, any other prelirainary business?
18 MR. BACKUS: I have one other thing, Mr. Chairrian. I 19 don' t know just where we are in terms of our schedule.
20 We do have rebuttal test irnony on the evacuat ion t i rne 21 en t i taa t ?s panel. There are a couple of corrections that will 22 be refiled t ornorrow, but I have that testimony available. This 23 in the test irnony of Mirai Fallon, Beverly Hollingworth, and 24 Llizabeth Weinhold.
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(l 1 that Mimi Fallon and Elizabeth Weinhold have done on tho -j i
2 traffic situation and the evacuation routes at the beach.~ ;
3 Now, I am told'that these people can be available for I 4 testifying in support of this prefiled testimony as early as (
l i
5 tomorrow if that is necausary or desirable. 'I am not saying !
- j. 6 that in . the otely - day that they can do it, but it in j 4- i I 7 available -- i 8 JUDGE SMITH: Have you discussed this yet? !
l 9 MR- BACKUS: No, because I thought we were going to l {
i i 10 be taking up the sheltering testimony, but I just heard Mr.
11 Dignan uay that perhapu he was not ready to go with the l t
i 12 shelt: ring testimony, dependirig on what FEMH has to say. [
13 And if so, I was just offering thin as tontimony that i 14 could be offered early. !
15 JUDGE SMITH. Well, would you follow our previoun l I
16 request ard first raisu it with the other partieu? {
i 17 MP. EACKUS: Sure. I I
l 18 Meanwhile just no e,trybody will have this au noon as {
l i f 13 possible, why don' t I make available copies of thi9 to the L 20 Doard and the partieu, thono that d an' t already have it.
I i
t 21 JUDGE SMITH: Thank you, i
! l h 22 MM. BACKUS: You, there a,e a couple of corrections, l h f 23 but the substantive testimony in au we intend to off~er it. ;
I 24 IUbGE SMITH: Okay, can you put it in the uhape of an l 25 tairplane? l Heritage Reporting Corporatiou !
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2 JUDGE SMITH: Any other preliminary buuineus?
3 MR. OLESKEY: Along those linen, we are working on ,
4 two ETE rebuttal filings, and Mr. Fierce is back in Douton 5 working on them now, and auked me to make it clear that he 6 hopes to have them in at the end of the week, and if not, next t
7 ' week.
8 JUDGE SMITH: We nave no hearing scheduled next week.
9 MR. OLESKEY: I understand that, but we would mane l 10 them available in any event.
11 MS. WEISS: Along those lines, may I just mention 12 that the Coalition has filed some rebuttal testimony of Mr.
. 13 Earl.
I 19 JUDGE SMITH: Yes.
, 15 MS. WEISS: And at some point I Quess we want to I
16 discuss when it might be appropriate to schedule that.
17 JUDGE SMITH: Well, what we have tried to do, with 18 almost a 100 percent .'ailure, is to urge the parties to talk d
19 among each other as to the scheduling.
I 20 And I would, we have not given up hope yet, that that 21 might work, but would you give it a shot? l 22 Maybe you can bring a new dimension to it and 23 accomplish that. .
i 24 MS. WEISS: Your Honor, I guess we are conceding that
{
i 25 we are going to be having another week of hearingu after this I
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2 JUDGE SMI'lH No, I don' t know. The question wi11 i 3 probably be rnore where, because thin in it for here. And 4 probably the discussion should c; enter onto what can be heard 5 norneplace alue, probably Washington, and what rount be heard 6 here.
7 That in what I would hope that the parties would take 8 into account when you discuss it.
9 MS. WEISS: Oh, he is in New York, so it in probably 10 just as easy for hirn to get to D.C.
11 JUDGE SMITH: Yes, well, all right.
12 Is there any further business?
13 MR. DIGNAN: Yes~ Your Honor.
O 14 Just for your i n f ortna t ion, before the week is out we 15 will be filing with you a utipulation between ourselves and the 1G New England Coalition on Nuclear Pollution.
17 The New Eng1and Coalition on Nuclear Dol 1ution and 18 the Applic' ants have agreed to a utipulation whereby they 19 withdraw their contention NHLP-4, which was the contention that 20 wan directed at the hearing-irnpaired, and an a renuit two 21 pieces of test irnony which they have prefiled will not be 22 offored, and our panel's t est iroony on not i ficat ion and 23 corninunicat ions wil l be substantially reduced in scope.
24 Our plan in to leave the utipulation with you at the 25 t irne we hr.ve the new version of the test irnory ready and this O
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l 1 will resolve that. But for scheduling purposen there in going 2 to be a substantial reduction in the tirne that is necucuary to l l
3 dual with the not i ficat ion and corntnunicat ionu -- !
[
4 JUDGE SMITH: All right.
5 MR. DIGNAN: --
because the -- I won' t say the raajor !
6 issue, but the rnout t i rne- connurning of the issuen has been t t
7 resolved between the partien. !
e t
8 MS. WEISS: That is correct, Mr. C h a i rrn a n . l 9 And at the tirne that it in filed, I would ank for the [
i 10 Board to approve the utipulation on the record. j i
11 JUDGE SMITH: 011 right. ,
I 12 Any other prelitainary buuiness? i i
.- 13 In thin panel ready? l
l 14 MR. DIGNAN: Your Honor, I was going to requent thin. I l
15 As I have indicated to you, I would like a chance to think i i
16 about the question of going with the shelt er test irnony in light l 17 of the fact of what I have heard f rorn FEMA.
i i
18 Dut this does not rnean we ntop. i l
19 You will recall that Dr. Mileti wan part of the ETE j t
20 panel, and at that t irne ray brot her Traficont e reserved the f i
21 right to cross-exarnine a piece of that t est i rnony in connection i E
22 with the t irne when sheltering was taken up. That was the piece l
23 entitled Spontaneous Sheltering.
24 Mr. Traficonte had indicated to rne before today that 25 when the sheltering panel went back on, the first order of f
EO !
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! l l 8430 1 business in cross-exarnination an far au he was concerned wan !
! i
). 2 for hirn to cross-examine this piece of Dr. Mi l et i's t ent'irnony. l i !
k _3 I was going to ruspectfully suggest that we roove to !
l t I, 4 that. I don' t know if that will take up the balance of the day '
5 or not, but it'will.give rou nome time to think about and i i
i
- - 6 consult with ray colleaDues on the question of what we want to l 7 do with the regular shelter panel in light of what FEMA han !
I i
.8 said. I 9 Of course, in the last analysin the Board will tell 10 un what we are going to do with them, but I would like to think l 11 about what our position should be and whether we want to offer i
12 the shelter testimony at thin t iene.
13 So, if that in agreeable with the Doard and with my 14 brother Traficonte, we could proceed to let hirn just crosu-15 exauine that piece which was Doing to be the opening order of 16' business in any event, at this point. l I
17 JUDGE SMITH: Do you understand -- had p1anned to do l
18 that?
19 MR. TRAFICONTE: Yes, we had planned on doing that, l i
20 ( au long an I can ask Dr. Mileti quantionu that involve his !
I I
21 assenument of material contained in the sheltering testimony.
22 That'n to say, I want to auk hirn quest ionu concerning l 23 behavior that are based in part on his review of your 24 sheltering package.
25 MH. DIGNAN: So you view thern as integral?
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1 MR. TRAFICONTE: Well, I wouldn't uay integral, but f
u 1 don' t want to be prohibited f rorn asking hirn quest ionn that ~~ I
?' 3 ,
I f 4 MR. DIGNAN: I understand. !
) 5 MR. TRAFICONTE: I can' t une thuru is a problern j i
G there. l i
7 Mr. Dignan , are you conternplating withdrawing, are l l )
8 you contornplating withdrawing thin test irdony in its entirety?
9 Is that -- !
i l
j 10 MR. DIGNAN You guenned it. .
i i a t' 11 I have cont ernpl at ed recorving the right to withdraw l
12 it, let'n put it that way.
I i f 13
- rnean, I will put the cards up to overybody.
! . ,O 14 If FEMA in going to corao in here and chanDe their f
15 testitnony to say, quote, in accordance with the -- what 1 l I
16 understand to be the raajority of the RAC -- that the plan in l f
17 adequate without further reference to uholtering, that's called 18 a rebut t able preuurnpt ion.
19 And I'11 ride with it. [
l 20 MR. TRAFICONTE: Thiu in rebutted by contrary l 21 evidence, as we know, i 22 MR. DIGNAN: That is right, go take your shot.
l 23 MR. TRAFICONTE: Maybe that inuun then -- roaybe he !
24 has to decide first, bacauue I do have a series of questions l t
r 25 for Dr. Milett that --
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k) 1 JUDGE SMITH: Well, what portion of the testimony 2 would you examine him on? !
3 MR. DIGNAN: This was on --
4 MR. TRAFICONTE: Pages 20 to 23 of the sheltering
$ test irnony package. ,
G Now, that is one long paragraph on that page, but at ;
7 the bottom, there cre a couple of alumentn. First, there are '
8 attached to this sheltering package sorne draf t rnensages. And I 9 was going to review with Dr. Mileti those roessages. ,
10 Secondly, there is a reference by incorporation in 11 the uhulturing tentirnony to the behavioral testimony, regarding .
12 spontaneous sheltering.
4
. 13 And I was Doing t o, obviously, review that with Dr.
' O 14 Mileti.
15 JUDGE GMITH: Then you suspected he in the author of .
16 that?
r 17 MR. TRAFICONTE: I uuspect he is.
l 18 JUDGE SMITH: You, and I don' t -- it unemn to ine you ,
F i 19 could crons-examine him on those staternents whether that i i
, 20 t est i rnony is in or not. ;
21 MR. TRAFICONTE: Well, that 's fine. I ' rn prepared to ,
t i
! 22 proceed. I just wanted to indicate to Mr. Dignan that the !
23 thrust of rny crous-exarninat ion of Dr. Mileti concerns the i
24 uheltering toutirnony and hin viewn on behavior with regard to 25 it.
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[> 1 If we' re not going to have sheltering testimony, then l
- 2 I' m not sure that this in anything but Just fillinu in the next 3 hour and a half, which I am glad to do that.
3 .
4 MR. DIGNAN: My point in thin; when the ETE went ~ in k 5 there wan a sectivn called upontaneous sheltering.
4 l 6 MR. TRAFICONTE: Right, i
j 7 MR. DIGNAN ' And we heard from you all day au t'o A 1 8 whether it han something to do with ETE. .I happen to think it-9 does. But that in neither' hero nor there.
10 At that time, you reserved and naid you wanted to 11 cross-examine that at the time Dr. Mileti came back with thin 12 panel.
13 Now, I guess what I' m anking you, do you have any 14 questionu that come only out of that and you could ask them, 1
15 and then you can make up your mind about what you want to do 16 about anythinD else after I tell you whether I' m going to of fer 17 the sheltering testimony. J l
18 because if what you are telling me is there are no 1 *] questionn that really come out of thin, that they all really 20 come out of the sheltering tentimony, then maybe we can just go 21 to the sheltering testimony.
l 22 In which case, I would ask the Board for 10 minutuu 23 to think about it. l 24 I am at your disposal, Mr. Traficonte, whichever you 25 choose to do.
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? 1 JUDGE SMITH: There is a third alternative which we I.
2 raight consider and that in he proceeds with his tantiraony, we 3 keep it au a discrete package.
q 4 It either'in abandoned or not abandonud, depending
-t 5 upon what your decision in. In any uvent, it in prenceved-for l l
-6 use later on. l l
7 As I understand it, you don' t know if you are going j l
8 to offer thin, and Mr. Traficonte in naying, well, if you don' t 1 5
i 9 know if you are goinD to offer, he does.n' t know if he in going l i
10 to bother to cross-exaraine. j l
11 In any event, we' re hare now. We don' t know. Why l
l 12 3 don' t we get the cross-exarninat ion in the record, hold it :
I I
13 aside, and plug it in as appropriate depending upon what l O. l l 14 happenn? )
l iS MR. TRAFICONTE: Unless a five rninute break -- unless j t
i 16 he can resolve it in five rninuten -- f t
17 JUDGE SMITH: All riDht, if you can resolve it in 10 l 10 ra i nut e s, great. I just said as a third alternative, you could i 19 consider. j l
20 MR. THAFICONTE: Sure. !
21 JUDGE SMITH: Yes, we rainued our raidaf ternoon break.
22 (Laughter.)
23 JUDGE SMITH: So let's take a 10 rainut e break and neu l
34 what you can work out.
25 MR. DIGNAN: Thank you, Your Honor.
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1 (Whoroupon, a beis9 roca s 5, W tn t aNan. ) - t 2 JUDGE SMI'iH Mr..Dignan,.1 undtn'n t and .that ' you. reade ,
j 3 an arrangernent with Mr. Traf*sconto? .,
MR. DIGNAN:
4 The -- Mr. Traticonto? Oh, there ho is.
S An I understand thu arrangernent we raada, Your Honor, G is that ~ Mr. Traficonte will start to cross-exatoino Dr. Mileti 4-7 with respecc to the upontaneous shaltering raaterial which l
8 appears fr om Pagun 98 to Panu 101 an the App 12 cants' Dirent'No.
t i 9 7, which han already been adtnitted.
I 10 That i t ' s undervi.t ood by everyone that this cross-11 exarnisat ion wi ll, of nocuruity, range into the yet-to-be-
, 12 offered Applicants' Direct Tent irnony No. 6. The Applicant has
\
Dr. Mileti in prepared to be cronued -n !
f- 13 no ob,jection to that.,
I I 'L' l 14 that bauin, and thu Applicants will advise the Board tornorrow, ,
15 and the partieu, au to whether they are goinr} t o, in fact, -
l l 16 well, I hope to advise you torcorrow as to whether or not s
l 17 Applicants' Direct No. 6 will, in fact, be offered into l
18 . evidence.
1 19 Mr , Traficonte has assured rne that in any event there i
4 20 will be no duplicat ion of cross-exarainat ion. To the extent ho ;
1 2 .' ranDes into No. 6 today, there will be no further running into j i
22 it to repeat the questions. 6 i
23 And if that's agreeable to the 13oard, that's the i
24 arrangement we have worked out. ;
r 25 JUDGE SMllH: All r20ht, other partieu inight be
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$ T, affected by- t hat , but Mr. Traficonte in any event would be the
( ~ '% , q .
L, <1,;o J- main Intervenor on it.
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'3 MR. TRAFICONTE: Would Your. Honor want to swear Dr.
I:
- 4 M('ett again?
5 JUDGE SMITH: Dr. Mileti, you are utill under oath i
6 throughout this testimony. You have been sworn before.
- 7 MR. MILETI: Yes, I understand.
8 Whereupon, ;
9 DENNIS MILETI 10 having been previously duly sworn, was recalled as a witness, i
1 11 and was examined and testified as follows: i 1
i
) l 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION !
13 BY MR. TRAF1 CONTE:
s O 14 O I am not going to introduce myself, Dr. Mileti, to 15 you, again, but I will introduce myself to other roembers of the f 4 16 panel. :
t 17 My name is John Traficonte and I am an Assistant ,
c 18 Attorney Ouneral for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. !
i ;
19 Now, Dr. Mileti, do you have a copy of a document, EO entitled Applicants' Direct Testimony No. 6 (Sheltering),
i r 21 before you? !
22 A (Milet1) Yes, I do. 3 i c 23 Q And just so the record 5s clear, would you t urn to ;
4 i b
) 24 Page 23 in that document? !
23 A (M110ti) Yes, I' m there. l t
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D) 1- 1 -Q Toward the bottom of that page -- strike that.
2 In the middle of that page, if I may, I' d like to 3 read a portion into the record.
4 A little bit above the middle, it begins, "Specific 5 emergency messages have been developed and will be added to the 6 plan for advising the beach population to take shelter in the 7 nearest indoor public location. A pre-recorded message to this 8 effect will be in place at the beach siren activation points 9 for broadcast over the beach public address system.
10 "The EDS sheltering message for the beach population 11 will advise people to go to the nearent indoor public location.
12 The EDS message for this contingency will also request
. 13 owners / operators of public access facilities to assist people
'O' 14 with taking shelter.
15 "A sample of these messaDes is provided as Attachment 16 3. It is expected that people will comply with Emergency 17 Broadcast System announcements to take shelter and that 18 owners / operators of public access facilities will make their 19 facilities available for this purpose, as discussed in the 20 testimony of the ETE and human behavior panel."
21 Now, I would like to beDin on that last point and 22 ask, so the record's clear, this reference to the testimony of 23 the ETE and human behavior panel.
24 Can you, for the record, identify what sections of 25 that testimony, that earlier submitted testimony, are beinD FO Heritage ReportinD Corporation (202) 628-4888
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i MILETI - CROSS ' 8436 - t 1 referenced here?
b a- - Are there specific portions being referenced? ,
3 A (Mileti) I would presume at a minimum the section C I
! A that begins on PaDe 98, and runs through Page 101 of the ETE ,
5 testimony. i
-i 6 Q And you say, at a minimum. l 7 And do you believe there may be other portions that 8
are referenced?
9 A (Mileti) I can't answer that question with total 10 certainty. j 11 And when I think about human behavior I think about c r
12 the knowledge base we have, as opposed to parts of tuntimony.
13 So I really can' t answer that questiont I don' t know.
O 14 O Now, turning back to Page 23, in the sheltering [
15 testimony, are you the author of the, any part or the whole of
}'
16 the section that I have read into the record? [
?
i 17 A (Mileti) I did not write it, no. .
18 Q Is there any portion of the sheltering testimony that l 19 you are the author of? f
! l 20 A (Mileti) I did not write any of it, however, I had f j 21 many conversations with different people about uheltering as l 4
22 well as other topics. i 23 Q All right, did you have any other conversations, did j
}
! 24 you have any conversations with individuals who were authoring f
f 25 this sheltering testimony? l
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1 A (Miluti) I, to be honest with you, don' t know who
[
actually did the writing of the testimony. I 2
3 Q Okay.
4 A (Mileti) I can say that I have talked to John'Baer, i 5 Tony Callendrello, Paul Frechette. Richard St rorne, a few years ;
6 ago. I have talked to those persons about various aspects about 7 human behavior in emergencien.
8 9 But you were not involved, as this docurnent, as this 9 testimony was being prepared, you were not involved in 10 providinD advice to its author as to what should be said about ,
11 behavior in the context of sheltering, is that accurate? ;
12 A (Mileti) No, I can' t say.that was accurate. .
I
- 13 Q Okay. !
l 14 A (Mileti) I was talking to those persons about a ,
1 15 variety of aspects of hurnan behavior in ernergencies, including 16 shelterinD, and I am not sure when it was that they might have j a i 17 begun or ended writing this testimony.
4 18 Q Well, we are not going to find out now who wrote -
- 19 what, for reasons that are already clear on the record.
20 But we might have to pick that up later.
i
, 21 Let me then focus your attention to the last sentence i
22 in the paragraph I read you.
e 23 That uentence reads, "It is expected that poopio will I
24 comp 1y with einer g ency broadcast syntem annou ncernent s to take f 23 shelter. And that owner / ~~ let 's take that fient. [
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MILETI - CROSS 8440 f ss 1 Let's take that phrase first. "It is expected that i
2 people will comply with emergency broadcast syntum 3 announcements to take shelter." !
4 Is that your testimony? !
i
- 5 A (Mileti) I would agree with that. I think that is 6 the most prudent hypothesis one could offer, i 7 Q And you are prepared to adopt that testimony here, 0 today, as your testimony? l
- 9 A (Mileti) Yes.
}
10 Q Does the reference to the people who will comply with
]
11 emergency broadcast system announcementu to take shelter l I
l 12 include the beach population? ,
?
1 13 A (Mileti) Yes. !
C:) 14 O And now, the second half of that sentence, and I am ,
1 ,
1 l
L 15 going to paraphrase slightly, it is expected that ;
i !
16 owner / operators of public access facilities will make their ;
, 17 facilities available for this purpone as discussed in the ;
! 18 test imony of the ETE and huntan behavior panel. [
l 19 In that your testimony?
i
. 20 A (Mileti) Yen. !
! h i 21 O And you are adopting it, although you did not author !
! 22 it, you are adopting it today au yours?
23 You are prepared to defend that statement? {
e
- 24 A (Mileti) You. 1
(
i 25 Q And again, are these owners and operators of public I
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MILETI - CROSS 844 l Al 1 access facilities, do they include those owners and operators i 2 of beach public access facilitieu? i 3 A (Mileti) They would be people who own buildings and 4 that would include wherever they might be.
5 Q Including those who own buildinDu in the beach strip 6 in the Seabrook EPZ?
7 A (Mileti) Yes.
4 8 G Okay.
9 Now, Dr. Mileti, have you ever testified in any 10 previous proceeding specifically on human behavior with regard 11 to sheltering behavior?
12 A (Mileti) Yes, i inave.
13 Q And what proceedings were those?
' ~
14 A (Mileti) I know for sure I talked about that at 15 Shoreham. And I can' t say honestly I remember ever talking I
16 about it at other proceedings, but it is possible.
17 Q Okay, when you testified on sheltering at Shoreham, 18 did it involve shultering in place, as opposed to sheltering 19 for a population that is transient and it is not inside any 20 buildinD7 21 Is the distinction clear?
22 A (Mileti) It certainly tu. I just don' t remember.
23 Sorry.
24 O Now, your testimony is it, with regard to human 25 response and sheltering, is this testimony based on a review by Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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1 you of, for example, this document entitled, Direct Testimony j i
i 2 Number 6, the choltering testimony? j l
1 1
- 3 And/or any other documents that comprise the ad hoc j i-4 sheltering plan that had -- I am searching for what the status ')
l l 5 of that plan i s, as we speak -- but that has been proposed by l
- . I
{ 6 the Applicant? {
l 1 I. 7 Is your testimony based on a review of that ad hoc )
I !
I i 8 sheltering plan? l
( 9 A (Mileti) I am not sure I know what you mean by an ad j i ,
t
! 10 hoc sheltering plan. It is based on my review of different -
I i
! 11 studies about how people behave in eraergencies, as well as, !
12 information about the kir,d of public emergency warnings that i !
13 will be issued. I f
14 (Sirens oeund outside.) i f
i 15 MR. DIGNAN: They like it, John.
16 MR. TRAFICONTE: I was thinking about how nice it was {
l 17 to have Dr. Mileti here as this is happening. l 18 BY MR. TRAFICONTE:
19 O Let tae make my question a little bit more precise.
.30 I understand that you have knowledge with regard to 21 behavior during emergencies.
22 And I understand that your testimony on sheltering, ,
in part, in based on that knowledge. But I sta auking taore !
23 l,
24 precisely, in the testimony have on sheltering based on a l 25 review by you of anything specifically, anything specific about I
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l 1- 1 sheltering at Seabrook, that you have dona?
l l 2 Any review you have conducted on which'you are basing 3 your testimony here?
l-4 A (Mileti) Review of the Seabrook Emergency Broadcast l-I $ System Messages and supplemental aspects of the public warning 6 system that would occur in an emergency, including the beach at 7 Seabrook.
l 8 I have also been to several of the beaches as we have 9 talked about before.
f 10 O' Yes.
I f 11 A (Mileti) And I have also talked to planners about l 12 other aspects of the plans, but I don' t know if what we might 1
13 have talked about regarded what you have called the ad hoc i
0.
14 plan, or if it was in the plan, or what have you.
15 But in general, basically a review of the emerDency i
16 warnings that would be issued as well as now that emergency l
17 would be handled, in reference to public information.
18 0 Okay, we are going to turn to the messages in a few 19 minutes, but let's take your visits to the beach areas, first.
20 At any time, when you visited the beach areas, did 21 you personally review the existent shelters to make any 22 determination at all as to how those shelters might function n i
! 23 the event of an emergency as shelters?
l 24 A (Mileti) No.
I 25 And that would be outuide my area of expertise. Had Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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l MILETI - CROSS 8444 l 1 I done that, I probably wouldn' t be able to offer any kind of I 2 sound Judgment about it.
3 Q Havu you reviewed Stone & Webster's two reports on 4
4 exactly what shelturu do exist available to the public in the 5 beach strip?
6 A (Mileti) It in possible I may have encountered 7 nome written words and I am not uure whose they raight be, 8 regarding shelters.
9 I have certainly seen many pictures of what could te 4
10 sheltern, but I don' t recollect reviewing a technical report in '
11 any way.
i 12 O These pictures that you reviewed, are they picturen [
13 of shelters on the, in the Suabrook beach strip?
CE) ;
. 14 A (Mileti) Pictures of buildingn there, yes. ;
15 0 Is your toutiraony about human behavior with regard to (
16 sheltering, is it based on anything specific about the beach 17 ntript the buildinDu in the beach utrip, for exaraple?
18 A (Mileti) No. It is based on human beings, and I ,
I 19 would presurae those are the people who would be sheltering.
1 20 So I focused on people and how they behaved, rather ;
3
) 21 than the shelters that they would go in to. i I 22 O So if we can Do back to the sentence at the end of l
) 23 the paragraph on Page 23, it is expected that people will ;
24 cornply with emergency broadeamt wynt era announcernent s to take i i
I 25 shelter, you sue that? ;
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f 1- 1 A (Miluti) Yes, I do< !
2- l I- 2 Q As for as you are concerned, you don' t mean to l 1
3 represent that they will be successful in doing that? l
}
- j. 4 That is to say, as far as you are concerned, people l
j 5 will attempt to comply with emergency broadcast announcements 6 to take shelter, is more technically accurate from your l l l
7 perspective? :
! 8 A (Mileti) If what you are talking about is the j l 9 response of those in search of shelter, yes.
)
i 10 However, I was also talking about the response of l :
1 11 those who had access to shelter that they could provide to the i l
12 public.
13 Q No, you are right the first time.
14 My question is aimed at what it is you know and what 15 it is you have reviewed.
16 I f, for example, you assume with me that there are I 17 not enough shelters in the beach strip to house the population, f
18 as far as you are concerned that doesn' t affect your statement i
19 here as to what people might be expected to do. l l
20 They are going to attempt to comply with the EPS l l
21 messatae?
22 A (Mileti) If there aren' t enough buildings for the 23 people at the beach to fit in, then they all can' t fit in them, f
24 I would have to agree with that, f 1
25 Q But your testimony has nothing to do with that. You j
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s 1 don' t know if there is or there isn' t adequate sheltering for ;
2 the relevant population? !
i 3 A (Mileti) No, I don' t .
4 Q Okay.
5 A (Mileti) That certainly would be outside my area of j 6 expertise. ,
- 7 Q And similarly, your statement as to what owners and 8 operators of public access facilities will do is a general ;
9 statement, isn' t it?
10 You don' t have any information about what specific 11 owners and operators of public access facilities on the beach 12 strip will do?
i i 13 You have not interviewed them or conducted any
- O 14 empirical research with regard to these individuals? i
. 15 A (Mileti) Absolutely not, because it would be
, 16 inappropriate to take their behavioral intentions as indicators ;
I 17 of their actual behavior in an emerDency. '
f 18 It is much more prudent to base that on the behavior t
, 19 of other human beings in other emergencies. ;
! 20 0 Well, let's take that point. That is an interesting l f
t 21 point. What about, i sn' t it your tentimony in the ETE portion [
t I 22 of this esse, that there could well be upwards of 50 percent
! 23 spontaneous evacuation in the beach area, in the event of an 24 emergency.
f 25 A (Mileti) I would have to answer that I spoke about a ,
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MImETI - CROSS 8447 1 range of 6 ,ential shadow evacuation in reference to what I was 2 calling "kuyhole shadow evacuat ion' , and that range was from 3 25-to-50 percent.
4 And it was in reference to what could be expected in 5 an evacuation. It wasn' t speaking about sheltering. .
a 6 Q Right, but as I undgestand, you have consulted with 7 Mr. Lieberman, and Mr. Lieberman has plugged into the I-DYNEV
' 8 model of 50 percent keyhole evacuation, spontaneous evacuation 9 assumption, iun' t that right?
10 A (Mileti) I have no idea what Mr. Lieberman did with I 11 his model. ,
12 O Well, assume with me, that there i s, at present, a 50 13 percent spontaneous evacuation assumption in the plan. It in i i
14 reasonable to assume, isn' t it, that a portion of these 15 individuals who will evacuate reside and own public buildings l 16 in the beach strip, do they not?
17 A (Miluti) I suppose in some kind of scenario, where i 18 you were having an evacuation, and the beach was not being 19 asked to evacuate and not being asked to shelter, that it is ;
20 possible that some shadow evacuees could come from that i
21 population, if they were in a like geographical distance to ,
22 the plant, as those who were advised to evacuate. t 23 0 Woll, let's imagine that the beach strip is advised ,
24 to shelter. In that context, what in your testimony as to what 1
i 25 percuntage of the population adviuud to uhaiter, may instmad, !
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MILETI - CROSS 8440 i evacuate?
2 A (Mileti) I can' t . answer that question without 3 specifying what the total public emergency.rusponse
]
4 recommendations are.
i S Because there aru different recommendations that 6 might lead me to uifferent answers. In general, which is the 7 only way I can answer that question, I would have to say that ;
8 good emergency information could, for different geographical 1
9 areas, have people enDage in different protective actions.
10 0 No, I understand that is your testimony with regard 11 to different DeoDraphical areas.
12 But let's focus on the beach strip as a whole, and, i
i 13 as a hypothetical, assume there is one protective moauure beinD 14 broadcast to the beach population; and that t u, to shelter.
4 t
15 Do you have a view au to what percentage of the ;
I I 16 population would upontaneouuly evacuate instead of shelter?
1 17 A (Milet3) I would need to know if other persons are i
, l L j 18 being asked to evacuate or not. And if those other persons who !
i f 19 are being asked to evacuate are in a different geographical i
, 20 area or not. )
21 Q Well, we have already stipulated that everyone in the l 22 beach area in being told to shelter. So, yes, there other [
I 23 arean outside the beach avea are beinD told to evacuate. i
! i
! 24 So it would model the keyhole example. Other areas l 25 are beinD told to evacuate; the beach areau are being told to Heritage Reporting Corporation .
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~) 1 shelter in place. ]
1
! 2 Do yov have a view as to whether a percentage of the i
I 1 l 3 people in the - beach area would, in fact, avacuate? l I l i
4 A (Mileti) It is possible that some might think of l l l i 5 that. It is possible that some might engage in it. I wouldn' t )
i !
l i j 6 expect if that is the protective action being recommended for l l
7 that specific area and it is being recommended for-everyone in )
8 that rspecific area, and i' information were as good and as f 9 repetitive au the Seabrook plan envisions, that many would 10 evacuate.
11 But of course it is possible that some could..
12 Anything is possibio in reference to human behavior. But I f
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. 13 would estimate it, that it would be low. t 14 (Continued on the next page.) !
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'I4 40 1 Q- Let's.go back, because I may be confused. I 2 It'n my understanding that the plan now annumen a_50 3 percent spontaneoun evacuation figuru. So that if an area iu 6
4 told to evacuate, and an adjoining area in told not to 5 evacuato, then plan assumes that 50 percent of the adjoining 6 aroa, whoso recommendation it in to uit t ight and don' t 7 evacuntu, the plan now assumes that 50 porcent of those people 8 will spontaneously evacuate, and that'n called the key hole t
9 model of evacuation.
10 That's accurate, iun' t it? ,
I
, 11 A (Miluti) I don' t know what the plan assumes. You' d l
12 have to ask someone who doun.
13 D Dr. Mileti, you were here when we croun-examined, or !
-(1 14 wo had a discunnion with Mr. Lieberman on this precise point, l 15 weren' t you?
16 A (Mileti) I was here for a long time when Ed 17 Liuborman was being cronn-examined, and heard him speak a great 18 deal about his model. l 19 1 can' t say 1 understood overything he was saying, or 20 that I remember overything that I understood.
21 O Okay, but we had a, and I can find it if wu noud t o, 22 I can find it in the record.
23 You recall a discussion with Mr. Lieberman about a 60 24 percent figure that he in uuing for upontaneouu ovacuation, 25 don' t you? That that is in fact the planning banis right now.
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'O 1 A (Miluti) I have a vague recollection that I a rurnurnber tir. Lieberrnan answering a quention, referencing 3 sornethinD he looked up, and he uaid 60 percent was the answer.
4 5 1 rernernber enore explicitly sayinD that in reference G to key hole shadow ovacuationn, --
7 Q Yes, and --
8 A (Milet1) --
I would recorarnend 25 to 50 po-teent --
9 0 Yun.
10
, A (Mileti) -- would be a likely range that a plan
! 11 conuider.
, 12 Q That in what we' re talkinD about right now. You' re t 1
13 on to it. That' n ray rnernory an well, that here in a 50 percent t
i O 14 figure. You recorninended a ranDe f rorn 25 percent to SO percent, 4
15 and he hau plugged in a 50 percent figure.
3 16 Now I' in t ryinD to get you to analyze what would l 17 happen if the bear:h areau were advised to shelter in place, and 18 the narne assurnpt ion t hat is at work in the plan of a 50 percent
! 19 spontaneous evacuatton, that'u to say, 50 percent of the people 20 who were not advised to evacuate do evacuate. That' n what the 21 plan in now -- that'u the prernise of the plan.
22 What wi11 happen when those 50 percent of the people ,
23 in the beach area evacuate?
24 What will happen to those uheltern, the buildings 25 that they own or operate?
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' 1/ ff \ 1 MR. DIGNHN I object. The quantion in without a foundation. It's true thorn in toutimony in thn caso if a key 3 hole evacuation in ordered, and overybody else was told not to 4 ovacuato, there would bu a shadow avacuation in offect between ,
5 25 and 50 percent outside the keyhole. ;
1 6 I underntand tho hypothetical put to the witness now j 7 in in the key hole, we' re ord 'ing shelter, and I don' t know f
8 that anybody hau put the quantion to dato, other than perhapa .
9 earlier today Dr. Miluti, annuming you order a key hele [
10 shultur, will pooplu still ovacuato. ,
11 MR. TRAFICONTE: Let ma put that question -- [
12 MR. DIGNAN: That's not what was discunsed at the [
t 13 ETE. I' m not saying my brother shouldn' t be allowed to explore i 14 it, but I think he's got to auk the foundation cuestionu of ,
15 this witness as to whether if you assume thore tu an order to I i
16 shelter, as I understand it now in the key hole, or t1at -
17 something will happen outside or incide that keyhole in the ;
18 nature of evacuation, but that's not what wan dincuoued with f i
19 Mr. Lieberman. f i
20 MR. TRAFICONTE: Well, what we' re get t ing here is my l 21 public education on the meaning of upontaneouu ovacuation, and ;
i 22 1 had to have that happen in public, but let me put that ;
i 23 question to Dr. Milett. f t
24 BY MR. TRAFICONTE: [
i 25 0 If the beach area in advised to shelter, what I l :
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1 purcentaDe of the beach population advined to uhultur will
-l 0 2 upontaneounly uvacuato?
l 3 A (Miluti) Wit h good einergency informat ion. ~~
l 4 0 You.
5, A - (Mi lot i) -- a very small porcentago.
6 0 Well, what range?
7 A (Mileti) I can' t nive you a range. I would just say 8 that it's just simply a very small number. In any protectivu 9 act ior. for any kind of an ernergency, theru is always a person 10 or two who uirnply doesn' t want to engage in that protectivo 11 action.
12 There were people who refunud to leave Mt. St. Helens l 13 even though they know they weru going to blow up with it.
l
! 14 But usually offective raten of 99 percent for a l 1 l l
15 evacuation can be achieved with good ernergency i n fortdat i on.
10 0 Okay.
. 17 A (Mileti) And I would presume the sarne in true in i
i 18 reference to shulturing, but I can' t say it's true for 19 everybody. But it would be a small nuraber with good ernergency 20 i nf ortda t i on.
21 0 Dr. Mileti, pleaue explain what the fiUuru 25 to 50 22 percent spontaneoun ovacuation in the key holu context raeans.
1 23 A (Miluti) I have that presented in ray testimony on 24 t hed ETE, and I can uiraply refer you to - lot rno find the 2S attachment.
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[/ )'s .
5
- 1 It would ba Pape-190, were it numbered, right after 2 Page 189. And on that diagram in the ETE testimony on the page 3' after Page 189, if the first full circle out'from the plant 4 site were the 10-mile boundary, and the second and last full 5 circle were the 20-mile boundary.
6 Q Yes.
7 A (Mileti) And if the little circle that isn' t G complete that's closest to the plant site were the two-mile 9 boundary.
10 Q Yes.
11 A (Miluti) Were evacuation ordered for all the people 12 twithin two miles of the plant, as well as everyone out to the
. . - . . 13 10-mile boundary i n, let's say, a downwind direction.
- ~
14 Q Yes.
15 A (Mileti) And I didn' t draw this very well --
it 16 could be 25 percent of the two to 10-mile range -- that I would 17 expect 25 to 50 percent shadow evacuation in the area of the 18 EPZ not advised to engage in protective actions, not advised to 19 evacuate.
20 Q Yes, but at --
21 A (Mileti) And that presumed a.t there were no 22 shelter recommendativas being made.
23 Q Right. Let me ask you the more general question.
24 Is the notion of spontaneous evacuation applicable at 25 all, in your view, to a situation where a population instead of Heritage Reporting Corpor . tion ,
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MILETI - CROSS 8455 1 being advised to evacuate is being advised to shelter?.
2 A (Mileti) If what you mean by that is people are 3 advised to shelter and they instead engaDe in the evacuation 4- protective action --
5 Q Yes, that's what I mea r3, 6 A (Mileti) -- it would be evacuation. I wouldn' t call 7 it spontaneous. I would call it an evacuation decision rather 8 than a sheltar decision, and I certainly wouldn' t impose the 9 sorts of range that I talked about in reference to Page 190 10 here regarding shadow evacuation at all.
11 0 Can you explain why you would assume that the people 12 who are within the five-mile zone, if we can refer to your 13 chart on what would be Page 190, can you explain why you assume O 14 people who are not advised to evacuate would evacuate, upwards 15 of 25 to 50 percent of them would evacuate, but people who are 16 advised to shelter, some percentage, parallel percentage would 17 not necessarily evacuate?
18 A (Mileti) To answer that question fully, I'd have to 19 talk for half an hour, so I' ll givo you a thumbnail sketch of 20 the reasons I think why there is a difference.
21 In general, pe"nons being asked to not engage in 22 protective action, and rather, to continue to in essence do l 23 nothing in reference to the sort of evacuation described on i
l 24 this paDe, many of those persons might feel, for the wrong 25 reauon, that they are in the zone of risk and decide to l
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2 Sorno persons raay feel that why.not err on the side of 3 safety, and go ahead and evacuate. Some persons simply have no 4 constraints to evacuation, so they rnay go ahead and evacuate, 5 et cetera.
6' However, in an area where people have been advised 7 ,that they would in fact be safer if they sheltered rather than 8 evacuated, they are not being asked to do nothing. They are 9 k being an'ed to rnake protective action recomraendation baned on 10 i n for:nat i on f rora, roost people would presume, persons who know 11 what's going on, and therefore they have sornething to key their l
12 behavior off of in that a specific behavior is being l
l 13 recommended.
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IS that information to the public, that much fewer people would l
l 1G end up making different decisions than what they have b2en l
17 advised, which is categorically different from telling people 18 there is no need for you to engage in protective action.
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! 19 Q I see. So the difference is between a population i
20 that is advised to do nothing, because they are .ot at risk, at 21 .eant as the broadcant rnenuage advisen thern, they are 22 classified in the not-at-risk sector of the population, the 23 predict ion you raake about what t hey' re liable to do in not 24 parallel to a prediction about what people told to shelter will 25 do in terrnu of the percentage of those told to shelter who will Heritage ReportinD Corporation (202) 628-4888 l
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kl 1 spontaneously evacuate. 1 hat is apples and oranues, in your 2 opinion.
3 A (Mileti) Yes, I' d agree with' what you just said.
4 O Generally, your test imony on cheltL-ring, is it based 5 on some empirical record or research on human sheltering?
6 A (Mileti) I was -- in general, no. It's based on an 7 empirical record about how people behave in emergencies. I was 8 unable to locate, and we reviewed 400 evacuations involving 9 chemical accidents, or technological emergencies, and were 10 unable to find,a case where people were advined to shelter.
11 And so it's not based on perfectly analogous 12 emergencies in which large members of -- numbers of the 13 population have been asked to shelter simply because I haven' t 14 been able to find one. There may be one. If anyone knows, I 15 would like to know about it.
16 Q So there is an element of extrapolation here, is 17 there not?
18 You' re ext rapolat ing from what humar. beings have beer 19 told to do in other contexts, and you' re making the asuumption 20 that if they are told to shelter, they will.
l 21 A (Mileti) Absolutely. There has to be extrapolation 22 in this case since we haven' t experienced any emergencies at 23 nuclear power plants analogous to the kind that we' re planning I
l 24 for here.
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- 1 extrapolation since these kinds of emerDencies haven' t happened 2 yet. That is, a nuclear power? plant in which people had to 3 shelter or evacuate, and there was a good plan in place.
4 0 .No, I understand that, but.we have - -we have an 5 historical record, an empirical record of evacuation in G response to an ernergency, don't we?
7 A (Mileti) We have an historical record of a range of 8 actions that people engage in in emergencies. Evacuation is 9 just one. There are dozens upon dozens other behaviors people 10 have engaged in in reference to different emergencies. And 11 sorne people have studied various di f ferent aspects.
12 It is true that evacuation has received the most 13 research attention. It's certainly the rnost focused in
.(m iL 14 settings like this in terras of that. But people who study what 15 the public does in response to emerDencies tend to look at what 1G people did in response to the warnings that they got, which may 17 or may not include evacuation.
18 Q Right, and when you' ve . reviewed, or after your review 19 of that research, you found no case of human response to a 20 recomrnendation to shelter?
l 21 A (Mileti) We found no case in which a large segment 22 of a community was given the protective action recommendation 23 to shelter, i
l 24 O So it is fair to say that your testimony in the form l
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El 1 shelte;' is based on your core notion that ernerDency broadcast 2 systerns generally can guide and shape hurnan response if they' re 3 adequate, if those nysterns are adequate?
l 4 A (Mileti) In general, yes, but I' d like to rephrane 5 it by saying I think ray predictions here and everywhere else 6 are based on looking at the causen of hurnan behavior rather 7 than looking at descriptive accounts of how people behave.
8 Q I underntand, and we' ve had lengthy discuuuions on 9 what causes hurnan behavior in ernergencies, and it' n your view 10 that, in raajor part, it's shaped, det erra i ned , caused by the 11 i n fortnat i on available to the actor at the t irne of the 12 erner g ency?
13 A (Mileti) In Deneral, yes.
V 14 Q Now, it'u a fact, isn' t it, Dr. Mileti, that in the 15 event of an ernergency at Beabrook an individual hearing or 16 subject to the ernergency broadcast systern would have two 17 alternatives open to hird or her. That 's a fact -- t wo 18 f und ardent a l alternativen open to hirn or her. That' n a fact, 19 isn' t it?
20 A (Mileti) It depends on what you rnean by f undaraent al 21 alternativen.
22 O Well, that individual can shelter, or that individual 23 can evacuate.
24 A (Mi1eti) In t e rrn s of protective actions, that's 25 probably true. There are, in terros of h urna n response, other J
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.g I) 1 actions they could engage in.
2 Q Well, other relevant actions?
3 A (Mileti) If they did nothing, that would be quite 4 relevant I think in the final analysis.
5 Q Fair enough.
6 Setting aside doing nothing, are there other relevant 7' actions that an individual could take to protect himself or 8 heruelf?
9 A (Mileti) I would imaDine not, because I haven' t 10 heard about them, but I' m not an expert in the field of-how one 11 protects yourself from radiation, no I can' t really say for 12 nure.
13 Q Now, in that context, an individual is going to have
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&J 14 to make a decision an to which of these fundamental protective 15 measures he or she engages in.
l 16 That's accurate, isn' t it?
17 A (Mileti) From an analytical point of view, I would 18 uay yes. However, I' m sure there would be some persons, if 19 asked to engaDe in a particular protective action, that may not 20 think of the other one.
21 For example, if evacuation were advised, persons may 22 not even have it au part of their consciousness that sheltering l
23 exiuts and vice-versa.
24 Q Well, let's take the vice-versa.
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1 from a behavioral neientist'u point of view that they wouldn' t i i
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- 3 A (Mileti) I' m sure some personn would think of f
,i q 4 evacuating, yen.
! 5 Q No. But the question is would anybody net think of ,
6 it. I i
j' 7 A (Mileti) It'n always possible in reference to human J L 1 l
) 8 behavior -- !
! I l 9 Q Okay. l i 10 A (Mileti) -- that you can find noMeone that would do l 1
1 11 it. If you can think it up, it's ponnible that it could ;
12 happen.
13 Q No, I understand.
14 But a prudent and rational planner would assume, t 15 would he not, that presented with an emergency an individual is f 16 going to be placed in a situation where he could shelter if he 17 is advised or known what sheltering means, or he could p f
18 evacuate. I f 19 He' s going to be presented with that alternative, in 20 he not? l
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21 A (Mileti) At the abstract level, yes. Those two l l
f 22 alternativou exist. I 23 Q Okay. And it's your testimony that you can make j 1
24 predictions about what people will do in >euponne to a !
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i_/ 1 broadcasting system to shape -- and other information made 2 available to that individual -- to shape his choice.
3 That's right, isn' t it?
4 A (Mileti) I would rather uay help thern make the best 5 decision about what to do rather than shape their choice.
6 Q However, I don' t want to get tied up in the jargon.
7 But the point is that it's your view that that person's choice, 8 based on your testimony a..d your knowledge, that person's 9 choice is going to be a function of the information made 10 available to hirn.
11 A (Mileti) In general, yes.
12 Q Okay. Now, do you have any ernpirical evidence, or 13 are there any cases that you have exarained where an individual
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14 placed in an emergency has a choice, fundamental choice of 15 protective rneasures, and there is empirical evidence that the 16 emergency broadcasting system has been able to help that 17 individual shape, or appropriately shape his choice?
18 Are there any cases of that?
19 A (Mileti) There have been cases where there have been 20 hazards occurring in cornmuni t ies. For example, ch ara i ca l I
21 explosions and then toxic plurnes, where certainly personu could
(
t 22 have sheltered or evacuated, and evacuat ion was recornrounded, 23 and ernergency information went out, and the evacuation was l
l 24 successful, and I would presurne not much sheltering, if any, 25 went on.
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N' I don' t know, as I' ve already said, of any canes 1
2 where that circumstance occurred where sheltering was advised.
3 Q Right. So that was goinD to be ray next question.
4 So there are exarnples of situations where in 5 ernergencies people had a choices they could have sheltered or 6 they could have evacuated. The ernergency broadcast syntum 7 advised evacuation, and they evacuated. So there is ernpirical 8 ovidence for that proposition.
9 But if I understand your t est i rnony, there is no 10 ern p i r i c a l evidence for the proposition that a person placed in 11 the sarne situat ion with a choice, they can evacuate or they can 12 shelter, advised by the broadcant systern to shelter; we have no 13 cases where they in fact did shelter.
O 14 A (Mileti) An I' ve already said, I don' t know of any 15 cases where a large, cornmunity-wide ernergency recort,rnended 16 uhelter as a protective action.
17 Delieve toe if I did, I would have entered the 18 findings in my test irnony.
19 Q l understand. Now, let's go back to your basis for 20 your t est irnony that in Just that situat ion you' re confident in 21 predicting that if the ernerDency broadcast synt ern is adequate 22 they will shelter if advised to shelter.
23 Now, what is the basis for that?
24 A (Mileti) It's the only prudent conclusion that a 25 reaur,nable scholar in roy field could reach after reviewing the O
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A >1 1 empirical data that does exist.
2 Q It in.
3 How about the conclusion that we don' t know, would 4 that be a prudent conclusion based on the research data that a 5 scholar in your field has reviewed?
6 A (Mileti) We don' t know empirically because that sort 7 of event has occurred as a --
8 Q Right, so we' re not able to predict.
9 A (Mileti) No, I didn' t say that.
10 Q No, I know, I know.
11 And I' m asking, wouldn' t a prudent scholar in your 12 field, having reviewed jurt e that empirical research, come to
, 13 the conclusion that we don' t know what would happen in that 14 scenario?
15 An individual havinD two options, sheltering or 16 evacuation, being advised to shelter, in the absence of any 17 empirical evidence that the emergency broadcast system would 18 produce that response, a prudent scholar would conclude wo 19 don' t know what an individual would do in that circumstance.
20 A (Milett) No, I disagree, and I don' t think if a 21 scholar, and there have been some who have in fact said we 22 don' t know.
23 Q Who were they?
24 A (Mileti) Ron Perry, I think, although even though 1 25 still don' t read German.
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'I b - 1 Q He said it in some other.lanDuage though.
t 2 A- (Mileti) English.
3 It is the case that we have an empirical record about 4 what it is that are the key reasons why publica do what they do 5 in an emergency. And sometirnes we ask pub 41cs, in reference to 6 all kinds of hazards, to stuff towels under the 11oor. Somet irnos 7 we ask them to evacuate. Sometirnes we ask thern to just listen There in a whole range of G l for rnore ernergency i n fortnat ion.
9 +.bings that people can engage in doing, and the empirical 10 record suggests that we know that ernerg ency information han the 11 rnajor ef fect on deterraininD that rusponse.
12 Now, to ignore that record and that finding, and to 13 throw up our hands and say the knowledue we' ve accumulated over O 14 30 years looking at neveral hundred emergencieu where publien 15 have enDaged .n protect ive act ion recornrnendat ions is not 16 applicable to one because that protect ive act ion recornmendat ion 17 hasn' t been rnade, in irresponsible.
18 So I wouldn' t call that scholar prudent. I would f
19 call t hern irresponsible. That's not what the empirical record 20 suugents.
21 Q So you would call a scholar that concludes f rorn t he 22 etapirical research with regard to hurnan rouponse to shelcering, 23 you would call that scholar irnprudent if that scholar decided 24 that the record in so ulight that they just can' t know, they 25 can' t predict what h urna n beings would do in that nituction; O
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- 1 that would be imprudent.
2 A (Mileti) On the basis of the record we have about 3 what shapes human response in different communities, at l
4 different times with different human beings in reference to S different hazards out the window, yes, I' d ' call that 6 imprtdence.
7 Q Although we have no empirical case where emergency 8 broadcast systems have kept people in their homes sheltering.
9 A (Mileti) I don' t know of any community-wide 10 emergency where people have been asked to r,helter, and I' ve 11 said that several times. I' m willing to keep saying it as many 12 times as you would like, but that is true.
. ., 13 Q Have been asked to shelter and shelter.
14 A (Mileti) That's right.
i 15 Q Or for that matter, we have no cases where people [
16 have been asked to shelter. r 17 A (Mileti) It is possible that there have been cases l 18 where people have been asked to shelter, but I didn' t search in l
l 19 that arena because they weren' t community-wide emergencies that I
20 would be analogous to this event.
21 For example, there may have been a minor leak of l
22 something or other in some obscure city somewhere where 23 just --
- 24 Q No city is obscure, Dr. Mileti, for the people who 25 live there.
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8 l-i MILETI'- CROSS 8467 1 A (Mileti) That is true, i ,
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2 A srnall advi sernent to thelter in a particular i 3 building, but I didn' t review that . category of ernergencies i
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1J 1 JUDGE SMITH: How about tornadoes?
2 .Isn' t that a pretty routine sheltering advisory that 3 people get?
4 THE WITNESS (Mileti): Yes, now that you rnent ion it, 5 that is true.
6 In fact, FEMA technical planning guidance talks about 7 how one goes about selecting a good shelter; how to find an 8- interior wall or a room without windows; and how to make.
9 choices about engaging in shelter activities.
10 I had in rnind technological events when I did thin 11 review. I' rn almost embarrassed 'to say there are studies of 12 public response to tornadoes.
t . 13 Most of thern are somewhat dated in that public
'0' 14 response to tornadoes is pretty sound and therefore it seerns as 15 if the planning problems are solved and there isn' t touch money 16 available to research them from a behavioral point of view.
17 And there are cases where public response was, in 18 general, prudent to warninDs of tornadoes, including 19 sheltering.
20 JUDGE SMITH: How about imprudent?
21 THE WITNESS (Mileti): There, certainly because many 22 of them were old, old studies cases, where people made wrong 23 decisions about what to do in emergencies. There i s, indeed, ,
24 variation.
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l MILETI - CROSS 8469 f~T (s) 1 Q Now, in the case of a tornado, Dr. Mileti, an 2 individual -- is an individual placed in a situation where he 3 or she could evacuate and/or shelter?
4 A (Mileti) Yes, in general, but there have been cases 5 where people were Diven no choice.
6 Q They had to do one or the other, I take it?
7 A (Mileti) In a few cases, but in general you were 8 correct.
9 Q Well, in those situations where individuals who were 10 free to do one of two things, they could evacuate or they could 11 shelter with regard to a tornado, have you done any 12 investigation as to how the emergency broadcast nyutem impacted 13 on that decision, if at all?
O 14 A (Mileti) I' d have to say in the course of my life I 15 have read probably every human response study that's ever been 16 done.
17 So, yes, I' ve encountered them.
18 I also have to admit that I d idn' t do a review of 19 tornado response studies for this testimony. I, an I' ve g 20 already said, was thinking of technological emergencies.
21 In general, as I recall, however, I think the prudent 22 course of action in reference to tornadoes in not necesuarily 23 one or the other. And you' re supposed to shelter if the 24 general guidance is you hear a tornado tu very close and 25 evacuation isn' t an option.
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. 1 Otherwise, it's easy to step out of the path of a 2 tornado by just going a mile or two.
l 3 Q Is-that piece of information something that sornebody 4 who lives in a tornado band, or, tornado -- strike that --
5 tornado area is likely to know?
6 A (Mileti) I suppose it depends on what you mean by a f
7- tornado area. It is true that --
8 Q An area that is hit by tornadoes.
9 A (Mileti) Every state in the country is hit by 10 tornadoes. However, there are some states that don' t think 11 they are hit by tornadoes, in which case people are very 12 unlikely to know things.
< 13 And there are raany states in the country called 14 tornado area -- obviously Kansas is part of it -- where people g
15 have referred to disaster subcultures where what people do in 16 reference to warning response or in regard to hazards is part 17 of the local culture. I rnea n, it's just part of livinD there.
18 And so there's a variation.
19 G So that when there is a disaster subculture existent, 20 wouldn' t it be your view that elernents of that subculture, the 21 knowledge and folklore in that subculture roay well be a 22 d et erro i nant of human response in the event 'f an ernergency?
23 A (Mileti) Well, disaster subculture is the 24 consequencu of having exportenced a part icular hazard's irnpact 25 so rnany t irnes that people learn from experience, and they LO Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4688 l
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N4 1 recognize the risk. And in those situations, that experience, 2 and the built-in mechanistas that society has adopted to deal 3 with that risk, do hold.
4 But that is not --
5 Q Well, let rne put the question again. I think that 6 was a partial answer.
7 But in those areas where there's a disaster 8 subculture, would it be your testimony that that subculture 9 would be a key deterrainant of human response, in addition to or 10 other than the ernergency informat ion nystem that's used in that 11 area?
12 A (Mileti) Aspects of culture would have an effect in l 13 any emergency. Certainly in a place where there is a disaster l 14 subculture, it would have a rauch more important effect, but I l
1 l 15 wouldn' t hypothesi ze that that would eliminate the effect of 16 erner gency i n f ortnat i on. It might help people better understand l
l 17 how to hear that inforraation and respond to that information.
I 18 Q Do you know whether there's a disaster subculture in i
19 the Seabrook EAZ?
20 A (Mileti) I have no idea, but I would guess not.
I 21 0 'Ind on what basis would you make that gue ss?
22 A (Mi1eti) I don' t have the sense that the area is 23 i rnpac t ed by a particular hazard frequent enough for a diuauter 24 subculture to exist.
25 However, I could be wrong.
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- 1 Q Ceuld subcultures develop outside the context of 2 actual events?
3 Could subcultures develop outside the context of 4 actual evento, actual emergencies, could they develop -- and 5 here I' m asking your view as a -sociologist -- in response to a 6 collectively perceived, possible event, i . e. , the heginning of 7 operation of a nuclear plant?
8 A (Mileti) If what you' re asking me in could there be 9 a community that was dramatically opposed to a nuclear power 10 plant, or --
11 Q We know the answer to that.
12 A (Mileti) -- or let' n uay fearful of nuclear power,
- 13 or that sort of thing, and could that turn into a social
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14 movement that then adopted the characteristics of a culture?
15 Q A subculture. A disaster subculture.
16 A (Mileti) It would have to be, yes, of course, it 17 would have to be a subculture, only American society has a 18 general culture. +
19 Then the answer i s, yes. I mean, one would expect 20 that. In fact, one would expect t h r.c that's the case in i 21 reference to the definition of a social movement. However, I
22 that's different than a disaster nub.ulture, in which norms 23 about processing risk and dealing with rink exist.
24 That comes from experiencing floods in the name 25 communition year after year, along the Minuius1ppi, for O
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,9 (V 1 1 example.
2 O I understand. I understand.
3 But it is your view then, an a sociologist, that a 4 subculture could develop around a perceived risk. For example, 5 in the Seabrook EPZ there could be such a subculture, that's 6 your view, isn' t it?
7 A (Mileti) It's quite possible, yes.
8 In fact, sociologists have done studies of social 9 movements associated with the anti-nuclear movement.
10 0 And couldn' t that subculture develop its own 11 knowledge base, accurate or inaccurate though it may be, au to 12 the appropriate response in the event of an emergency?
13 A (Mileti) It's certainly the case that it could 14 develop perceptions about what it perceives prior to an 15 emergency about what in an appropriate response in an actual 16 emergency.
17 Q Okay.
18 And again, we' re going back to, and I don' t want to l'3 go over the same ground, but it in your testimony in that 20 context, though, that in the event of an emergency, the 21 emergency broadcast system and the information supplied to 22 those individuals would control for that subculture, or the 23 shared knowledue or perceptions among the population in the 24 area?
25 A (Miluti) Yes. It's alwayn been -- well, I wouldn' t O
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l MILETI - CROSS 847" 1 use the word "control", I would use the word, help people make f a good decisions.
3 Q Okay.
4 A (Mileti) But that people respond in emergencies 5 based cn what they perceive the risk to be during the emergency 6 and what they perceive is an appropriate response in an 7 ernerg ency.
8 And the key factor deterraining that is not what 9 peoplu bring to the ernergency with them, their subculture, with 10 their preferences, their belief, their religion, but rather the 11 ernerg ency in fortnat i on.
12 O Yes, now, I understand that, and today for the first 13 time I heard you speak of disaster subcultures where people can
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14 brinD their experience and their knowledge to an ernergency, and 15 their behavior can, in part, be a function of their behavior 5 16 and knowledge.
17 Now, that's how you dencribed dinaster subcultures, 18 if I are not mistaken? 4 19 A (Mileti) Absolutely. People yo through ernergencies 20 no rauch, they know what thone kindu of ernergenciou are like; 21 f or exarnpl e, floods along the Mississippi.
22 O But rehearsaln, public rehearsalu, or public 23 discussion or private discussion of such an ernergency wouldn' t 24 . constitute that sarne kind of dinastor subculture?
25 A (Mileti) Well, I think I roay have left you witn a O Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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's 1 wrong impression.
2 You' re presuming that where a subculture exists, 3 people have kneejerk immediate response tc the hint that an 4 emergency is about to occur.
5 -That 's not the case. What is the case, and I could 6 describe an analoDy were there one in the Seabrook EPZ for a 7 disaster subculture, because of frequent broken nuclear power 8 plant accidents here. However, I suspect they' d shut the plant 9 down if that happened.
10 People would know how to pack their bags if they were 11 going to evacuate. They would know what sneltering meant,
, 12 about shutting off this and closing that and what to do.
gg 13 And, therefore, it would be an easier job of having d 14 persons perform their response to the emergency in an effective 15 way, as opposed to an emergency that's never been experienced 16 before.
17 Q How about if the people in the Seabrook EPZ, Dr.
18 Mileti, understood that, generally, the shelters in the beach I 19 strip provide only 10 percent reduction in dose as compared to 20 no physical shelter at all?
21 What if that piece of information was generally --
22 strike that. What if the population was generally conversant 23 with that piece of i n f ormat i on~/ Would that impact on how they 24 would interpret a sheltering directive, do you think?
25 A (Mileti) I think if personu durinD the emergency did l
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i 3 it.
I 4 But I believe that that decision would be greatly j 5 influenced by the kind of ernergency infortnation that was going l
r 6 on during the ernergency. ,
l l 7 Q Okay, are you aware that sheltering in this case ,
8 would be the recornrnandat ion, although roany i f not rnost of the 9 shelters utilized would only provide a 10 percent reduction l 10 factor for certain forrns of radiation?
11 A (Mileti) I' rn not an expert in that area, i i
t 12 Q Are you aware of that fact? j i
13 A (Mileti) The nurnbar 10 percent is a bit farniliar. 1 l
.[_l l
14 don' t know where I carne up with it. l l
15 Q Have you reviewed this sheltering testirnony, Dr. }
16 Mileti? j 17 A (Milet1) Yes, I have. I' ve read it several t i rnes.
18 The last tirne was on the plane out last night. I I
19 And i f an ernergency inforrnation broaricast says to :
I 20 people, you' ll be safer if you are sheltered, that's not !
l ,
21 pulling words out of thin air. I would hope it's based on the l
1 decision that there would be less exposure to radiation by '
22 i !
4 '
1 23 shelterinD than by enDaging in evacuation.
f f 24 And I think that kind of inforroation which in a sound
! 25 decision about how people would be safest, if presented to the '
t D Heritage Reporting Corporation l
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. t. / 1 public in a reasonable way, would elicit most people to engaDe 2 in the behavior from which they would be the safest.
3 Q Do you believe a' person would assess a situation 4 whereby sheltering would protect them from 10 percent of the 5 dose that no shelter would, do you think a person would 6 perceive that as a protective measure, as a rational protective
/ measure to take?
8 A (Mileti) I' m sorry, could you please repeat.the 9 question?
10 Q Yes, that was not clear. Let me restructure the il question, r.
12 If an individual knew that the shelter that ne was 13 advised to take was going to protect him from 10 ps.acent of the O 14 radiation dose, would that person be likely to interpret that 15 recommendation as something that he or she v;ould follow?
16 A (Mileti) I imagine that the answer could be yes or l 17 no, depending upon other factors. If one is comparing a 10
, 18 percent savings in done to a 300 percent exposure -- for 19 example, making the wrong decision to evacuate and increasing 20 exposure by staying in the plume a longer time or what have you 21 -- if they understood that, I think it would be most likely 22 that they would, in fact, shelter, because that's the less 23 exposure.
24 If you' re asking me would somebody go into a shelter 25 that they didn' t think was very useful in sheltering versus not Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
MILETI - CROSS 847a 1- being in radiation at all, then I think they' d opt for not 2 being in radiation at all.
3 Q No, that's quite clear.
4 What if the alternative was you are beinD advised to 5 shelteel you know that the shelter that you are being advised 6 to enter in going to provide you with 10 percent reduction in 7 dosage, as compared to no shelter, you have, obviously, another
- 8. al .orrect ive ; that is, to evacuate.
9 What is your prediction as to rational response in i
! 10 chat situation?
t
- 11 A (Mileti) I believe that persons would, indeed, l
12 engage in what they believe is the rnost prudent course of i
13 action, and indeed are rational decision makers in responding
-(~}
l '(,"
14 to ernerDency i n fortnat i on, and they would opt for doing what l
15 they think would be the safest for them.
l 16 And I think in reference to a sheltering advisory 17 that that, indeed, would be the safest alternative. I don' t 18 have the knowledge that uheltering would be advised when 19 evacuat ion would raake people safer.
20 If that's the case, it's probably an ill-conceived 21 plan. I mean, if the wrong protective action is being 22 recomroend ed .
23 But I think emergency information in likely to be 24 able to help people corne to understand what in their bout 25 proinctive action and help them decide to engage in that 7T L/
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MILETI - CROSS 847':s f%
\- 1 protective action.
2 Q I see.
3 So, if I understasd the answer, an individual hearing 4 the recommendation that he or she shelter would understand that U even thouDh he might know that the shelter is only going to 6 provide a 10 percent reduction in dose, he is going to i
7 understand that, as compared to what will happen if he 8 evacuates, he's better served to shelter.
9 That's your testimony, isn' t it?
10 That's how emergency broadcast system should work?
11 A (Mileti) As I recollect, and perhaps I should look 12 to make sure the emergency broadcast system tells people that 13 they would be safer if they sheltered than if they did 14 something else, and I think that is significant information, 15 because that's indeed the case.
16 Q Okay, why don' t we take a look at that and see if it 17 says that?
i j 18 Why don' t we turn to one of the attachments, j 19 Attachment No. 3 to the sheltering testimony, and you will see l
20 there Attachment No. 3, at the top, (1 of 4), you see that
l l 21 The document is headed "Beach Public Address Shelter l
22 Message".
23 Do you see that -- I am sorry, take your time.
24 A (Mileti) Okay, I' m there. I 25 O Okay, and then that's a one page document. And then
! Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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-- m the next docurnent in a three-page docurnent also headed 1
2 At t achrnent 3, but t h i'.s t i rne Pa D e n 2, 3, and 4, that is 3 entitled, "Message F, General Ernerg ency, (Sheltering Towns and 4 Beaches)".
5 Do you see that document; and that's a three-page 6 document?
7 A (Mileti) Yes, I do.
8 G Now, you' ve reviewed these two rnessages, have you l 9 not?
l i 10 A (Mileti) Yes, I have.
t 11 Q Okay.
12 And can you point out for us where in either of thesu
. 13 rnessa D en it is indicated to the listener that ho or shu iu ,
t h
14 going to be safer a. f they shelter as cornpared to evacuate?
15 (Continued on the next page.)
16 17 18 l
19 l 20 l
l 21 l 22 l
l 23 l 24 l
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b_jO 1 A (Mileti) A quick readinD of this now, and I don' t 2 find it.
3 JUDGE SMITH: Are you talkinD about Attachmer,t 2 or 4 4, too?
5 MR. TRAFICONTE: Yes, both. I was asking him to 6 review both of them and see if there are references einywhere in 7 there that would indicate that shelter is going to previde rnore 8 protection.
9 JUDGE SMITH: Well, --
10 MR. TRAFICONTE: You, the top of the second -- in the 11 second document, Message F. As you return to the second 12 page -- st"ike that.
13 Yau, the second page. So everyone has the same spot, Iy)
'V' 14 it's Attachment 3 (3 of 4). At the beginning of that page you 15 will see the sentence, "In order to get the greatest protection 16 from possible exposure to radiation, you should take the 17 following actions " --
and then a series of numbers.
18 BY MR. TRAFICONTE:
19 Q ls tnat the kind of indication that yot ' re 20 referencing by indicating that one course is safer than 21 another?
22 A (Mileti) Yes, thank you for pointing it out to me.
23 I honestly did rnius it when I read thin.
24 Q Well, I' m not sure you did.
25 Do you think that suntence refers t o -- do you think Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
MILETI - CROSG 8482 1 that sentence actually references shelter as compared to a radiation, or does it in fact adview the listener how best to .
3 maximize the protection once he shelters?
i 4 Because if then read what follows after the colon, 5 what do you find?
6 A (Mileti) I think this is in reference to sheltering.
7 I mean, it's in the contuxt of the shelthrinD paragraph that 8 comes prior to it. And it's just describing to people what's 9 meant by sheltering.
10 0 Right. And it's clear, isn't it, that this sentence f 11 and the sever. points that follow it indicate to a .iscener that 12 once he shelters, this is how best to maximirt the reduction, 13 the r adiation dase to be achieved by sheltering.
14 That's a fair reading caf this sentence, i sn' t it?
15 A .Mileti) I think what tnia says is in c eder to get 16 the greatest protection from possible exposure to radiation, 17 this is what people should do.
10 Q Well, 1 Duess my point is you' re the expert in 19 emergency messages.
20 1s this clear, does this indicate to the l i nt erier
- 21 that he's being -- done this inform the 117tence that it's 22 safer to whelter than to evacuate, or does this inform the 23 listener that if he wants to get the greatest protection while 24 sheltering, he should do one of the fol.wwing seven things?
2a A (Mileti) No, I think what it does is suggest that O
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2 % 1 they do all of the following seven things, and - that these are I
2 the thingu people -- those personu should-del that in, the 3 persons referenced in the preceding paragraph on t!' precedinD 4 paDe, in order to get the greatest protection from radiation 5 exposure.
6 It says, if you live in these towns, and in order to 7 get the. greatest protection from possible exponure to 8 radiation, this is what you should do, and then they. describe, 9 in essence, what shelter is.
10 Q Right, but nowhere is it made clear, in it, that 11 their net naving will be greater if they do this au compared to I 12 evacuate, or do you understand that's what these sentences
- ,_ 13 rnea n?
L" I would hope that's what these sentences 14 A (Mileti) 15 roean and that --
i 16 Q Well, you' re the expert in emergency response.
! 17 Is thin how a listener will understand these j 18 sentences?
I 19 A (Mileti) I think it would lead people to think that i
20 if they live in these towns --
l 21 Q Yes.
l l 22 A (Mileti) -- this is what they should do.
l 23 Q Well, I understand t hey' re going to grasp that this l
! 24 is what they should do, at least what they' re told they should l
I i
25 do.
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(- 1 My point is, will they understand, in light of our 2 previous discussion, will they understand that doing this is 3 going to be safer for them than evacuating?
4 7.s the mesuage going to make that clear?
5 A (Mileti) I think the words, "in order to get the 6 greatest protective action", thin is what you should do.
7 0 Well, it doesn' t say that, does it?
8 It doesn' t say, "in order to get the greatest 9 protective action".
10 A (Mileti) I' m sorry, the Dreatest protection from 11 possible exposure to radiation, thin is what you should do.
12 A n *) since this describen shelterinD rather than evacuation, I 13 think --
14 O Hight. But then it follows to say, for example, raake 15 sure all your windows and doors are closed tightly. So to too, 16 I mean, to a rational person, couldn' t that mean once you' ve 17 sheltered, make uure your windows are closed.
18 That doesn' t tell toe anything relat ive to the 19 benefits I might gain from an evacuation.
20 A (Mileti) I do believe that this does not b./e words 21 in it that compare dose projectionu to what one vould F
22 experience ir. evacuation. But t t.e first advisement sayu 23 shelter indooru at your current locatim.
24 If you' re asking me could we put more words in here 25 that talk about other thingu, the answer in you. Thetre's a Heritage R>,e p o r t i n g Corpnration (202) 628-4888 i
i I L
i-1 MILETI - CROSG- 848b 1 limit. I mean, these things get repeated every~15 minutes and 2 they can' t = be more than 15 minuten-long.
3 Q All right. Just to throw the final monkey wrench in, 4 if you want to direct your attrntion to Item 3.
5 Item 3 says that i f you' re in your car, close all 6 windown and vents while you continue to travel to your 7 destination.
8 Now are you still fairly clear that the thrust of 9 this mens, age in to inform the listener that he or she is safer 10 in sheltering than he would be if he evacuated?
11 A (No response.)
12 O Dr. Mileti, did you write this message?
13 A (Mileti) I can' t say I wrote any of_the manuagen. I 14 certainly have communicated at least two dozen times with 15 several people, one of whom I know wrote many parts of this 16 message, of these messaDes.
I 17 Q That was very close to your testimony when we earlier l
l 18 addressed ETEn.
l'd >
I' m talking specifically about thin Meunage F. Was 20 it part of the mensages that you reviewed in the time frames
, 21 that you' ve ir.dicated earlier that you have reviewed the l
i j 22 messages for the plan?
l 23 A (Mileti) I' ve certainly seen, this message neveral 24 t imes, you. Many times, in fact.
25 O This MessaDe F?
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MILETI - CROSS 8480 1 A (Mileti) Yes.
2 -Q And thin Message F in part of the messages that 3 you' ve reviewed, and you find adequate; in that correct?
4 In light of your knowledge of emergency broadcast 5 nystems, this message in one of - the onen that you' ve reviuwed 6 and you consider adequate, or.above average, I think your 7 testimony is?
8 A. (Mileti) Oh, absolutely.- 1 mean, these mensages.go 9 so far beyond the emergency warnings.
10 I mean this honestly.
11 Q I know you do, and --
12 A (Mileti) That's at other places.
13 0 -- t hat wasn' t the thrust of my -- not that I don' t O 14 mind the iteration of that. That's fine. But I just wanted to 15 make sure that Message F is included in that group that you are 16 about to pay great homage to.
17 It's one of the mennages that you find exemplary?
18 A (Mileti) Yes.
19 Q Let me turn back, because I may have cut you off and 20 I didn' t give you an opportunity to annwor my question about 21 Item No. 3 in that mensaDe on Attachment 3 (3 of 4).
22 How doen Item 3 fit into that menscgc an a whole?
23 A (Mileti) What do you mean by fit in? In terms of?
24 0 Well, I' m trying to understand how the mennage in 25 Doing to function when it's addressed to thene people in the O
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a MILETI - CROSG. 8487 k- 1 identified townu.
2 How would a listener who in not in his car understand 3 Item 3 when he hears it? He will hear that if you' re in your 4 car, close your windows and vents while you continue to travel 5 to your destination.
6 Now what happens to a listener who hearn that 7 directive who is not in his car? He disregards that?
8 A (Mileti) It's a good question. It in possible that 9 some confusion could result.frorn thin, I' m embarrassed to nay, 10 au roany times as I' ve got over these mensaDes, because we' re 11 auking people in the same geographical area, some are in the 12 house and sorne are in the car, to engage in different
- 13 protective actions.
'O 14 And in order to be able to do that well with it, and 15 eliminate the potential for confusion, more explanation needs 16 to be added.
17 Q I' m not sure I understand your point about we' re 18 asking these people to do a range of protective actions.
19 Isn' t this whole messaDe aimed at -- isn' t this 20 roessage exclusively a sheltering roessage?
21 -
A (Mileti) Yes, it is. However --
22 O So wouldn' t we want to instruct the people who are in 23 their cars to get out of their caru and head for phyuica) 24 shelter?
25 JUDGE SMITH: This cross-examination has been going
[O Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 1
t MILETI - CROSS 8480 1 on for some time. I think you ouDht to ask and answer the 2 quantions in the context that there are two piecen of advice 3 here. One is advising people to go to a shelter, and the other 4 in to shelter in place. .I mean, so long as you' re aware of 5 that.
6 MR. TRAFICONTE: Yes.
7 JUDGE SMITH: I Just can' t -- I don' t get the sense 8 that the dialogue has taken that into account.
9 MR. TRAFILONTE: I' m sorry. There are two sheltering 10 directions. One is i f you' re in a building, shalter in place.
11 And i f you' re not, go to a shelter.
12 JUDGE SMITH: Depends upon where you live; you know, 13 what the uituation --
0 14 MR. TRAFICONTE: Where you are.
15 JUDGE SMITH: Yeah, where you are.
16 MR. TRAFICONTE: Well, then, maybe I ought to put 17 that question to the witness. Maybe I misunderstood this 18 message.
19 BY MR. TRAFICONTE:
20 0 What doen Item 3 tell you to do if you' re in your 21 car?
22 A (Mileti) I would presume that what Item No. 3 tells 23 you to do in exactly what it uayn. Continue traveling to 24 wherever it in you happen to be goinD. That's what 1 --
25 0 And that means, if I undurstand the point of the O
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!' 1 Board here, that rneann -- l 1
l l- 2 JUDGE SMITH: It's a subset of the advice of those l
' 3 who are in a situation where it in deemed neceuuary to shelter !
l 4- in place right now, zip, nothing else, au compared to the other ;
. i 5 instruction which sayu, apparently, find shelter.- {
' i i 6 MR. TRAFICONTE: That's -- I think we may have a i
, 7 mutual confusion here. J 1
t I
a 8 BY MR. Ti< AF I CONTE : i l
9 Q Does No. 3 tell you to find shelter? :
I 10 Does Item No. 3 direct you to find shelter? f
}
11 JUDGE SMITH: Well, no. I junt get the sense that (
12 none of you are talking about, or that we' re not hearing the ;
I 13 same mesuage. l I
14 As I read this, there are two sets of people who are
)
15 involved. In season, those who are at Hampton Beach, Seabrook l l
16 Deach, or the beach, they are told to find shelter, go find 17 shelter.
18 The second not are people who are not at the beach, 19 other towns for example, in a situation, apparently, of, well. l 20 there is such that don' t go anyplace, shelter ri Uht now, and if 21 you' re in a car, get out, yet out of town. I mean, this is an 22 extreme situation here as I read it. l t
23 And, you, indeed, it does not tell people to seek l 24 shelter. The earlier one tellu people to seek shelter; in that l i
25 right?
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O. 1 MR. TRAFICONTE: I think -- I don' t know. l 2 JUDGE SMITH: But I mean if it in right, addrons it 3 in the context of your questions and anuwers.
! 4 MR. TRAFICONTE: All right. l f
1 j 5 DY MR. TRAFICONTE: i i
- j. 6 O Let me go back to an earlier question that I poned, t
I 7 Dr. Mileti. l l
8 MR. 1RAFICONTE: And my watch says a little after l
9 5:00. That may not be right. But we -- j l-10 JUDGE SMITH: That's about right. We' ll have to 11 conclude uoon, but let's clear up -- why don' t you clear up 12 this point and -- t 13 MR. TRAFICONTE: Yeah, I was just going to say, lut 14 me just finish thin point and then we' ll break, if that's all :
}
15 right with the Board.
16 BY MR. TRAFICONTE: !
t I 17 O We started this line by -- I was inquiring of you how i
18 a listener would respond to the message, thin sheltering }
19 message. Let's take the case of the listener who is not in a ,
f 20 physical structure, who is on the beach, and he in being j e
i 21 directed in this messaDe to find shelter. l
\
t l 22 That'n right, isn' t it? l t
23 A (Miluti) Yes, I believe uo. l f
24 G Okay. Now, how in that listener Doing to under -- i k
26 MR. DIGNAN: Wait a minute, Mr. Traficonte. You got Heritage Reporting Corporation l (202) 628-4880 )
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i MILETI - CROSS 849 grm . ,
1 1 him to accept that, but take a look at thu bottom paragraph on 2 the first page of the messagn, apropos to what Hin Honor 3 already has brought up.
4 MR. TRAFICONTE: Yes, yes, that's right.
5 . JUDGE SMITH: Maybe it would be a good idea if ;
6 overybody went home now and read the message.
7 MR. TRAFICONTE: Again.
- 8 Well, I think we can clear it up. ,
i 9 JUDGE SMITH: All riDht, Do ahead.
- 10 MR. TRAFICONTE
- If Mr. Dignan is referring to the 11 sentence that says, "These people will be advised to shelter in .
12 place," thiu means you should remain indoors at your current ;
' - 13 location, is that --
' ^
i 14 MR. DIGNAN: Then it rolls along sayinU, "StayinD 15 indooru will provide you with protection from radiation caused !
16 by radioactive material released from Seabrook Station. In 17 order to get the greatest protection from possible exposure, f
! 18 you should take the following actions:" One, two, three, four, 19 five, six, seven, and No. 7 says, "Remain indoors until told by 20 local or state officials that it is safe to Do outside or until ,
21 further protective actions are recommended."
(
22 Now, I assume No. 3, Mr. Traficonte, and I'll 23 stipulato with you, was to catch the case of the guy who's l ,
i i r i
24 driving in a car and hears it on the car radio. ,
23 MR. TRAFICONTE: RiDht. !
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l 4 MILETI - CROSS 8491-IO 1 MR. DIGNAN: And he's being told to stay in his car 2~ and keep Doing.
l Y 3 MR.-TRAFICONTE: Right.
- j. I j' 4 MR. DIGNAN Shelter in place, which in one of the i !
- l. 5 definitions of shelter in place that's in the plan; in the car, j
} !
j 6 keep going, j
! l 7 MR. TRAFICONTE: I see. So -- -
8 MR. DIGNAN Windown closed, air conditioninD offa l l-t l l 9 MR. TRAFICONTE: Okay, so -- (
j 10 MR. DIGNAN: Radio on.
F 11 MR. TRAFICONTE: Okay, can I now put the question to 12 Dr. Mileti after I' ve been enlightened by --
13 JUDGE SMITH: Goes butter this way.
O 14 (Laughter.) v l
15 MR. TRAFICONTE: That depends on your point of view. j
}
16 MR. DIGNAN: I guonu ray problern is, the rnennage -
17 upeaks for i t sel f. If ray brother wants to arDue to the Board j h I 18 in a finding that it's a crutarny roessage and ought to be l 19 changed --
I l 20 MR. TRAFICONTE: Well, I want your witness to j l
l 21 indicate it's a crurarny toesnage. ;
I 22 JUDGE SMITH: See, we digressed. He started off by ;
I 23 trying to have hirn st ate that people receiving this rnennaDe ;
d 24 would not derive the uenue that it is to their best advantage, 25 and they would therefore evacuate.
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b~l i In that utill what your purpose is? But hasn' t there ,
2 been a digresuion? '
3 You' re att acking the mensage as a whole now, . an it 9
4 not being a very good message for whatever weaknennen it might i
5 have. I sn' t that what han happened?
6 MR. TRAFICONTE: Well, we started by trying to 7 investiDate human-response in 110ht of a sheltering order when O there's alwayn the possibility to evacuate. That's the 9 context. -
i 10 It's his testimony that even though you could !
11 evacuate i f you' re told to shelter, you' re going to shelter.
12 So thin is the mesnage that's going to work that affcet. And I
.)
t 13 14 was going over it with him, and I was identifying Item No. 3 which is addressed, not to the person on'the beach, but a
) 15 person in a car who has been told to continue to his j
~
f 16 destination.
I
- 17 JUDGE SMITH
- This is a subset of people -- !
1 18 MR. TRAFICONTE: Yes, it is.
19 JUDGE SMITH: -- who wera told to shelter in place. i 20 MR. TRAFICONTE: Yeu, it in. ,
l l 21 JUDGE SMITH: Right. !
I 22 MR. TRAFICONTE: And what I' m investigating is the 23 impact of that part of the mecuage on a person who's not in l 24 their car. If I' m not in my car, I' ra on the beach, and I hear f i
25 this message, and a person who is in their car is being told to, [
b) [
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) os 1 shut their windown and continue to their destination, how am I 2 going to understand that and I' m on the beach and being told to 3 nhel t er, find adequate shelter.
4 MR. DIGNAN: All right. ObJoct, unle , - - in this 5 question in the context of the whole raussaue? That is to say, 6 that the person has heard thin along with all the paragraphs in 7 front of it that precede it.
8 MR. TRAFICONTE: Goon without saying, yes.
9 MR. DIGt!AN: And is the exiutence of item 3 goinD to 10 tell him to no click, click, I' ll ignore overything I heard 11 beforehand?
12 MR. TRAFICONTE: Or one -- well --
13 MR. DIGNAN: Is that the question?
O 14 MR. TRAFICONTE: 1 didn' t put it in thone terms.
15 DY MR. TRAFICONTE:
16 Q But the quertion i s, what is the irepact of Item 3 on 17 the coherency of the raessage?
18 That one finally is to you, Dr. Mileti.
19 A (Mileti) Sorry.
20 Q And don' t tell rae to repeat it, pleane.
21 A (Mileti) Did you just auk rne if the cohurency of the 22 raeswage --
23 0 1s affected by ltum 3 here?
24 A (Mileti) I wish you' d asked me what it would mean 25 f or how people tai Dht ret pond to it rather than the coherency of O
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MILETI - CROSS 849U 1 the monnage.
2 O Fino.
3 How will people respond, a person on the beach 4 hearing thin message, hearing Item 3 an to what you do when 5' you' re in your car, you keep going, how will that impact on 4
6 that person's chot. au between evacuation or sheltering?
j 7 A (Mileti) I suppose 1 should say some general things 8 to try to clear --
9 Q Well, you could say particular things.
10 A (Mileti) And particular things. .
I 11 JUDGE SMITH: Which pornon? :
12 MR. TRAFICONTE: The person on the beach who in being 13 advised to seek shelter by the message.
3 14 JUDGE SMITH: Beach group, it'u not a beach group.
15 This is a non-beach group.
l t
16 MR. TRAFICONTE: But he hearu it.
17 JUDGE SMITH: Oh, I see.
18 MR. TRAFICONTE: He hearu it, he hears it. Sure, >
19 sure, I agree, he's not in his car, but he hearu the message 20 about people -- l 21 JUDGE SMITH: I shouldn' t have interfered. I' m norry.
22 BY MR. TRAFICONTE:
23 Q Am 1 right about that? He does hear that portion, ;
24 doesn' t he? You don' t delete that section when we send the 25 mesnage out to the beach?
i I ,
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MILETI - CROSS 8490 1 A (Miluti) ' sure don' t know of any plans to delete 2 any partu when it's uunt to the beach.
3 G Right. l 4 A (Mileti) In general, it' n not a good idea to ack i 5 people occupying the same geographical area to engage-in 6 different protective actions, because of coincidence or 7 demographic factors, like whether you' re pregnant or not, 8 becauce what that does is defino an area at risk and has the 9 potential to create confusion.
10 We have here a message dramatically devoted to 11 getting people to shelter. There is nome potential for some 12 people to potentially be confused by hearing that some people '
13 are being asked to travel to their final dentina11on. It O 14 doesn' t specif y whether that's a shelter destination or outside 1
15 the EPZ. ,
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16 There in a potential here that, if you' ll forgive me, 17 we raight have some shadow shelteroru, that pursons might stop 18 their car and seek shelter because the message is designed to
- 19 get people to indeed seek shelter, and it is possible that some 20 persons upon hearing this one sentence will, because of that !
21 sentence being there, Will consider evacuation when they might !
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22 not have otherwise considered evacuation.
But the message is so clearly designed and so many 24 times talks about that sheltering is the best protective ;
25 action, I can' t imagine that it would be the reason for why f
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MILETI - CROSS 849'r 1 peopic t4ould choose to evacuate instead.
2 O Well, should the rnesuage be changed,- Dr. Mileti, in 3 that regard?
4 JUDGE SMITH: Nurnber 3, you rnean?
5 MR. TRAFICONTE: Yes.
6 THE WITNESS: (Mileti) There's no -- I don' t see 7 any reason to.
8 If you ask toe could I recornrnend a way to state 9 Sentonce No. 3 better, the answer is you, but my answer would 10 be yes in reference to every other sentence in an EbS rnessage, 11 or anything oise I' ve over seen or participated, even directly 12 in writing.
13 I think that this would raake it clear to the O
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14 population at risk what is the protective action that in 15 recornrnend ed, and that is sheltering.
16 MR TRAFICONTE: Okay, I' rn prepared to break now.
17 I' rn altnost done. I'rn not quit e done, and I assurae we can pick 18 this up tornorrow rnorning and finish Dr. Miluti very, very 19 quickly, but I -- obviously this kicks the question back to Mr.
20 Dignan as to what's going to happen tornorrow rnorning. I tried 21 to finish it, but I just didn' t do it.
22 He' l l be back?
23 MR. DIGNAN: Oh, yeah.
24 MR. TRAFICONTE: They' l l all be back?
25 MR. DIGNAN: I don' t know.
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4 MILETI - CROSS 849ek i 1 (Laught er. )-
2 MR. BISDEE: Your Honor, could I -- it may be apt at 3 this point, more apt than it would have appeared 15 minutes 4 ago, to raise the question of the hearing location.
5 JUDGE SMITH: All right, can we go off the record-and E 6 allow the reporter to go about his business?
7 MR. BACKUS: One other thing on the record. ,
8 Asuociated with the rebuttal test irnony that I handed i
9 out at the beginning this afternoon is a videotape, and I do '
10 have copies of that videotape to hand out to the parties. 7 11 JUDGE SMITH: As an exhibit? .
12 MR. BACKUS: Mm-hmm. '-
13 JUDGE SMITH: All right, may we go off the record ;
O 14 then? Anything else on the record? i 15 We' re of f the record, and we will meet tomorrow at 16 9:00. ;.
17 (Whereupon, at 5:13 p.m., the hearing was recessed, 18 to resume at 9:00 a.m., Tuesday, January 12, 1988.)
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1 CERTIFICATE 2 !
l 3 This in to certify that the attached proceedingu before the 1
4 United States Nuclear Re g u l at or'y Ccci.11 mn o n in the rnatter of:
5 Narne s PUBLIC SERVICE COMLANY OF G NEW HAMPSHIRE, et al.
7 Docket Nurn ber t S-- 4 4 3 - OL , S-444-OL 8 Place: CONCOHD, NEW HAMPSHIRE 9 Date: January 11, 1988 10 were held an herein appears, and that this in the original I
j 11 tranucript thereof for the file of the United Statou Nuclear 12 Regulatory Corntnission taken electronically by rae and, 13 thereaftur reduced to typoweiting by rno or under the direction
! . 14 of the court report ing cornpany, and that the recording is a
~O 15 true and accurato rer.rd of t in fn going r. coedingu.
1 16 /S/ j. ____.,.' _ _ _ _ . , , _ ,
17 (Signature typed): KENT ANDREWS 16 Official Reporter 19 Heritage Reporting Corporation 20 l al 22 l
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