ML20090K937
| ML20090K937 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Midland |
| Issue date: | 10/22/1980 |
| From: | Horn D CONSUMERS ENERGY CO. (FORMERLY CONSUMERS POWER CO.) |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML17198A223 | List:
|
| References | |
| CON-BOX-02, CON-BOX-2, FOIA-84-96 OM, NUDOCS 8405240491 | |
| Download: ML20090K937 (75) | |
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Oceket Nos. 5 0 - 3 2 9-0M s
5 0 -3 3 0 -0M 4 C08 5U3EP.S FO'a'IE Cot ? ANY.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -x 5
Nuclea: Re;ulatory Cos ission 6
widland Service Center 1100 South "ashington Street 7
vidiand, Michigan 8
Wednesday, Cctche: 22, 1980 9
2e;csition of DCNALO ELDON F.ORN, a witness herein, 10 es11ed for examination by counsel ic: the '.uclear Eequlatory 11 Co mission in the above-entitled matter, pursuant to recess, 12 the wit ness having teen sworn previously by ari*yn Shockey, v
13 a notary public, a t - the N;: lear Pegula tcry C0:=iscica,
14 wifland Service Center, 1100 ?cuth Washingten I : vet, 15 *1dlani, Michigan, ce=cencinq st 9: 45 o' clock a.n.,,
16 Wednesday, Cctcher 22, 1950, snd the ; oceedin7: being taken 17 down by 5:enomask by Xa:ilyn Shockey and transcribed unde:
18 har di:ection.
19 AFPEAFANCESs s
20 Cn behalf of the Nuclea: Fegulatory Cc= ission s 21 W:1LIA" 7A*0N, Tsq.
- RADLEY JONES, Esq.
22 Nuclear Regulatory Commission'
?.aryland National Bank Building 23 3ethesda, "aryland 24 25 ALDERSON Rt*ORTING COMPANY, WC, 400 viRoiwA Avt, s.w. WAsMWoToN, c.c. 20024 f 202 ss4 2346
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Cn behalf of Consuma s ?:ver Company:
2 FCNALO G.
APARIN, Isq.
ALAN FA?NELL, Esq.
3
- snam, Lincoln L 3eale One First National Flaza 4
Chicago, I111ncis 60603 5
J AMES SPUNNEE, Esq.
Consurers ? cwa: ~ct;&ny 6
212 *** e s : "ichi7an Jackson, Michigan 49201 7
ALSC PRESENTS 8
~ENE GALLAGHEE, 9
NEC Inspection and Inf orcement', Pe71cn !!!
10 F AYMOND 3UCPHIN, NEC :nspection and Info: cement, Ee71on !!!
11 JCHN GIL? AY,
12 NIC luality Assurance Branch, iethesda, %s:yland 13 2..
.A,.i
.e, 14
- t r y y, 15
- AEL H000, NFC, Division of Licensing, 16 Ee
- hesda, Maryland 17 SANDEA'VISSEE, Paralegal, 18 Consumer Power Ccepany 19 SHA30N '4 AERIN, Ir.terveno:
20 SAFEARA g:AM:7.Is, Intervenor 7
21 y
22 23 24 25
. ALDERSON REPom?iNG COMPANY INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WA$lalNGTON. D.C. 20024 4 02)554 2348
176A 1
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_ T11.21H15L2L 11---
Counsel fc 3
Counsel for Nucles:
Consumers ?cwer 2,*Jes111on ef:
Fec;1sterv 2-rissir; Cc Ianv 4
Donald Horn 5
(Further) 6 7
8 r.; At + e e y u a a 44 A
a.
A 9
Exhibit N'2 - h e r lig,;11#1gi,119a 10 Deposition Exhibi 3
11 7
Consumers Exhibit i 12 Concumers Exhibi 2
13 14 15 16 17 i
18 19 20 3
o.
21
. 22 23 24 25 I
P ALQtMSON REPORDN3 COM8ANY. INC, f
400 VMGIN!A AVE, $.W., WASHINGTON. 3.0. 200:4 f:c2) 554. 345
177 1
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XF. TATON:
tr. Horn, you understand that y:n 3:e 3 eti;; under oath.
4 MR. MOENs Yes.
5
'a* h e r e upo n,
6 00NAL; HORN, 7 es;.ed for exa:ination by ecunsel for the Nuclea: Fequiatory 8 Conmission, having been previ0usly svo:n by the ** c t a r y 9 Putlic, was further examined and testified as fellovst 10 EX A. MIN A!!CN EY COUNSEL 11 FCF T'! NUCLIA3 ?!GULATORY COX.M:57:CN d
12 3Y yg. ;A;oN:
13 0
Do you recall Mr. Gallagher asking y0u :
cttain 14 for hi: -- oh, you want to de a clarification first?
15
.tg.
!A%AE:N Yes.
Then there vill to 16 continuity.
17
- 13. P ATCl*
Go ahead.
18 M?. ZAMA? N Oo you vsnt me to ask hi. some 13 questions to get it in?
20 M2. PA;oN No, let me ask him.
21
!! MR. PATON: (Resuming) 22
'. Vorn, was there some clarification or 23 statement that you wanted to make with respecc te some of 24 tha testimony you gave yeste: day?
25 A
Yes.
ALDER $oN RE*oMTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON 0.C. 200:4 f:02) $84 446
~
179 1
I
. lease de so.
2 A
Last nicht I contacted my supervise: on the 3
implementation of the last paragraph of page 2u that you 4 presented to me at the end of the questioning yesterday.
5 Eased on my discus: ion with h im, the last paragr1;h is being 6 met, based ca.the en-site geotechnical scils engineer's 7 responsibilities as he is directing the actual testing.
He 8 is determining the frequencies being taken.
He is reviewing i
9 and a;;;cving all soil test re;c:ts.
10 Xy answer yeste: day was basec on the separation of i
l 11 tha twc s stements, one being -he on-site geotechnical soils 12 enginear, the ether being the performance of testing, based 13 on the total reading of tha t section, based en specification l
14 0-211 andf field ;:ocedure ?!C 1.100.
The on-site i
15 gectechnical seils enginee: is complying with that parts:aph i
16 on that de:ucent page 24, last pt :1;;1;h.
17 0
Okay.
18
- . F :n, you referenced Eech tel Specifica tion 19 C -211.
!s it ec rect that the last paragraph on page 24 j
[
20 that you referred to references Bechtel specification C-501?
~
21 A
Yes.
3 X?. ;AXAE Ns
- t. i t tre you saying, it is based on 23 this snc C-Oit and FIC -- what was it, 1.1007 24
!Y %E. PATON: (Eesuming) l 25 0
!s it your statement that the requirement that is d
ALotRSON RtPCRTING COM8ANY, INC.
400 VIRGINlA AVE, S.W., WASM6NGTON. 0.C. 20024 (2C2) 554.:348
l 179 referenced on ;a;e 20 that you have : st referred sc ic 2 contained in ?echtel S;ecifica tion 2117 i.
1 3
A
.No, tha: :equirement is not in 211.
4 C
I'm sorry
- missed you: reference to 2
5 specification 211.
'a*ould you tell 24 what that was again?
6 A
- said based on the requirements that are 1: C-211 7 and based on the requirements and activities, cuties Of the i
8 on-site geotechnical scils engineer, that that paragra;h is 1
9 bein; complied with.
10
- he on-cite qualified scile en;inee
- S that is X:.
i 11 Kleinhart?
}
12 A
Yes.
13 Does he now supervice filling ope:a tions?
i i
14 A
Yes.
I 4
i 15 3ased on 7:u: cc::ent unde:standin;, how lone have i
l 16 ycu been in ecs.;11ance with this requirer.ent?
i J
r l-17 A
A little time after the settlement Of the diesel 18 generator building.
i
]
19 0
You mesn since that time.
o l
20 A
Yes.
1 21 Bef ere tha t time, ve:e yet ever in cer;11ance with
+
22 this requirement?
4 23 -
A
- n '73 and '7u we had an on-site gee:ecanical 24 soils engineer at the site.
! as not sure of the. technical 25 direction that he was ;iving U.S. *estinc.
s 1
(
l s-i ALDERSON RSPORTING COM*ANY, INC, 400 VIRONA Avt. S.W.. WASHINGTON. O.C. 20024 (2026884 2346
190 1
7 50 you say during that period of time you r.icht 2 have taen in cor.;itance with the requirement.
Is that your 3 statenent?
4 A
Yas.
5 Maya you been conts:ted by *:. Gene Galiaquer of 6
the regi:n ::: It.I effice?
Have you ever been centacted by 7 hie?
8 A
Yes.
9 Q
Mov many times?
10 A
- vocid say a;; oximately uC or 50 tires.
11 0
2as that in the.: curse Of hir conductir.:
12 inspections?
13 A
yes.
14 C
And ere there ever cthe: co:.r.unica tiens "c u had 15 with hi vten he was nct conductine in;ections?
16 A
Yes.
17 g
Oid you aivays ;; ovide him the inic::ation ha 18 tequested?
19 A
NO.
20 C
Can you tei:. me why on some occasiens y:u -- ve:e 21 there occasions when you did not provide him the info:r.ation 22 r e:;ue cted ?
23 A
Yes.
24 C
Can you teil us why you did not?
25 1
Eecauce : had to check with my supervision to see ALDERSON Rt*C4 TING COMPANY, INO, 403 VIRGINIA AVI.1,W., W ASHINGTON. 0 0. 20024 t2021554 2345 m
151 1 if the request, they felt, could be 1:;1 erected.
2 C
iou sear. -
you say the requ+st ceuid be 3 ie:14me n te d.
4 A
Yes.
5 0
You mean by that you had te check with them to see 6 if you could give hi tr.e ans.e: to the ;ue:.ict t.M a t he 7 a sk.ed ?
8 A
Not the an swe r, but ;cscitly tr.e documents, yes.
9 0
He sck=d you for documents, snd sometires you had 10 to tali, to you supervise: to know whether or net to ; ovide 11 him with those docu:ents?
12 A
Yes.
13
'4ere the:e occasionc when you did net, based en 14 whst your su;*:viso: told yeu, you tid net p cvide hir. With 15 these document:?
16 A
Yes.
17 0
2e you remember /any specific ir. stance cf thsts for 18 example, why in a specific cute you sid not give him a 19 particular document?
)
20 4
Yes.
21 q
'*ould you please :ela*.e that ?
0 22 A
The documentation of the ferificaticn fe: the 23 50.54(f) question 11 vss the disposition that wer to Iwave l
24 them in Ann Arte:.tnd'have Gena Gallache ce to Ann Arbor to 25 review thot.a.
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1 40ERSI.N Rf80RhNG C044 ANY, INO.
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s 400 vim 0 Inia AW. SM, WJHINGTON, D C.'.'00241202) 854.l348 i',
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182 1
0 And did he ask you to review -- descrite fo: me a 2 little more cc:pletely what these decurents were.
I trink 3
you indicated they were follow-up to your answers to 4 quastion 23.
Is that accurate?
5 A
Yes.
They are verification ;ackages en closing 6 out of those action items t question 23 cf the 5C.54(f) 7 :esponse.
S 0
.eutting all that in layman's terms, veuld y:u say 9 that that meant this,1c what you ;1anned to de abcut the 10
- oblems that vere evidenced by your res;cnses.
- que: tic.a 11 23?
12 A
So.
13 0
.N o ?
Can you ex;1ain it an y other vsy than the vty 14 ou just did?
15 They are documents to verif y the co :ective action 16 has teen een;;eted on the tction items that are a ated in 17 the response.
18 0
Action items neans th a t these are items tha t 10
- + quire you to do comething.
20 A
yes.
21 A:e all the items in questien 23 closed cut?
22 A
- o.
23 0
.4e asked you to b:ing those docum ents :: Mi d *. a n d.
24 A
Yes.
25 C
Old he tell you as te the reason he vanted you to ALCERSON RE80PTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W.. WASHINGTON. C.O. 200:4 (202: $$4 0345
. a.2 1-do tha t?
2 A
Ec that he could review thee there.
3 C
rid he say why he vsnied io reviev them at Midland?
d A
I believe he said that id he Vent in to
.n n Arbor 5 it was like geing in to a vendor and there vould be too much 6 paperverk involved in getting in to that locatien.
7 g
'; hen did *e ask'ycu to bring those documents to 8 the site?
9 A
Me re uested it on October 2,
1960.
10 0
'4 hat vac four sc;onse to hin?
11 A
My res;0nse to hir. was that ! vould see what I 12 could do.
13 C
- h a t did you do?
14 A
- called u; " alt Eird and : told him v n,t Mr.
15 Gallagher had requested. Mi said'h'e eculd check te see if ve 16 would i:;10 ment that request.
17 0
You mean Mr. Eird said he vould have to check to 18 see if we could i ;1ement that request.
19 A
Yes.
20 0
- o you know whether he ever did ? -
21 A
Yes.
He called me back a;;roxi=ately a week later 22 and said the reports, the-Veridication packages veuld remain 23 in Ann Arbor.
I i
24 C
Did he say anything else te you-in tha t 25 conversation aheut why they-vecid reI*'a 4a ' Ann'Arber
- why
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W
?.
ALDERSON RE80RTING COMPANY. INC.
(,
4 J20.0 554-34! I,
403 VmGINIA AVE, S.W., WASKNGTCN. D.0L 200:
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you veul! not cc: ply with Mr. 3allagher's request?
2 A
He said that Gil Keeley had sta ted tha t they would 3
remain in Ann Arbor.
4 rid he tell you anything else atent what Mr.
5 Keeley said?
6 A
No, not that ! recall.
7 C
Did you gc along with that c: did you disagree 8 with it?
9 A
I asked him -- I said do you mean to tell ce we 10 can 't even make : ;ies of the documents and have them sent 11 up to the cite?
12 And what did he say*
13 A
Ee said that is right.
la C
! vant to ask ycu about your opinien tr attitude 15 about civing the NFC infor ation.
In your dealings with Jt.
16 Gallagher, do you think you have always been eccperative 17 with him in responding to requests for information?
18 A
Yes.
19 0
Okay.
Now, please tell me why you have always 20 been coc;erative with hi: in.civing him infernation.
21
~
xg, ;AxARIN:
Excuse me.
De you mean in what way 9
22 he was er what his motive is?
23 5?. PATON:
I asked him why.
24 YR. ZAMA3IN:
You want.to know why?
25 Y3. FATON:
I will tell you why even though.he l
1 1
1 l
i 4
. ALDERSON 'tEPcRTINO COMPANY. INC.
^
400 VIRGIN;A AVE, S.W WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 it02) 554 2345.
. a =,
1 didn't ask me.
f he says he did i: because it is 2 apprcpriate within the secpe of his responsibilit, tha: may 3 te relevant te the Boa rd, If he says he did it terause he 4 felt like it, that ray be reisvant information.
! think the 5 Soard is going :0 be inte rested in Censurers' attitude abou 6 providing information to the NFC, se ! at askin; him 7
YE. 2AMAE N:
Sc his =ctive. I wa sn ' t sure wha 8 yon meant when you said "Why."
9
?Y
- F.
?ATON: (Fasu:ing) l 10 C
Yest vny?
In other verds, what notivated you te 11 sivays roo;erate with Mr. Callagher?
12 A
It was Consumers' ;clicy := hel; '?EC as much as we 13 could to provide them information.
14 0
Hel; NEC as uen as we could; is that correct?
15
- v. o..e..
16
- o you give sny fifficu;;y reconciling that ;clicy 17 w it 'l the decision that was made providing Mr. Gallagher with 18 copies of this follov-up information te questica 227 19 ME. CAMARIN:
I would have to object to that 20 because he stated he didn 't knov the reason for '3i1 Keeley's 21 direction that they should remain in Ann Arber.
22 ME. PATCN:
Okay.
23 I think you can answer the question.
24 IHL "ICNESS:
Could you repeat the question, 25 please?
ALOERSON REPORDNG OOMPANY. INO.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGrON. D.C. 20024 (2C2) 554-2345
156 1
(The pending question was read by the reporter.)
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3 policy at the ti:e.
I was told not to have the document or 4 have -he copies sent up to the site.
5 3 Y *:3. I ATC:;s (Resu:ing) 6 C
- didn't as?. you what you felt about it at :ne 7
time.
- ' hat ! rean is how de you feel about it now?
8
.M R. ZAgAE:N; It would be the same objection, 9
since he doesn't knov :ne basis for Gil Keeley's decision.
10 But you can answer if you can.
11 THE W!T:iESS :
I didn't have any probler. With i t.
12 O Y.
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13 C
Okay.
14 Oc you know the reason for your staterent of 15 C:nsters' pclicy bei..; to hel; NEC as muc." as we ran?
16
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$.. a,., =_
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s 17 (The pending quection was read by the reporter.)
18 THE W:TNESS:
We h:ve been cid to do that.
- n 19 addition, ! f eel tha-they should be provided the same -
20 inf orma tion that I am provided so th at they can determine 21 compliance to quality assurance requirements.
22 EY 9?. ?ATON: (Fesuming) 23 C
Okay.
You do think-that they are entitled te as 24 much information as you are entitled to.
26 A
Yes.
8 ALDERSON REPORT!NG COMPANY. INC.
400 VtRGINIA AVE. S.W.. WASHINGTON. o.C. 20C24 ?2021554 2345
ic.
1 C
'4 hen Mr. Gallagher *:ked you questiens, were you 2 caref ul in your responses to answer very precisely the 3 question that he asked you, or did ycu attempt te assist him 4 with what your understanding was of what information he 5 wanted?
6 A
- would try to answer his question based on what !
7 felt he was asking, not specifically the question, but to 8 try to give him an answer that ! felt he was askin; and was 9
going to receive.
10 q
Fro: time to ti:e did ycu volunteer in fe rmation to 11 s.s.
9 4
s 12 A
Pcssibly.
13 Q
The problen with ";cssibly" is dc you kncv that 14 from time te time 7:e did?
"?cssibly" doesn't help the 15 record, ! don't think.
16 A
I cave him =cre infer:ati:n than he s;scifirailf 17 ask ed for.
18 0
Did you from time tc time give him fecuments that
-19 he did not specifically ask fcr?
20 1
Net tha t I ca recall.
21 0
This was pursuant te your understanding of the o
22 company's policy to help the NEC as much as we cocid?
23 A
Yes.
24 0
- 4 ave you folleved that ;011cy through today" 25 A
Yes.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMP ANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W;, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (2021554-234E
188 1
0 So that your statement is in responding te my 2
quest _ons yesterday you felt that you vere fc11oving a 3 company policy in responding to NEC's request for 4 information te help the NEC as much as you can.
5
- 33. ZAMA?IN:
Don't answer that. I will ebject to 6 that questien.
It is impreper. You are asking him about his 7 reiationship with the NEC in their ongoing review.
8 Yesterday and today ve are here in a deposition, in a legal 9 proceeding that is governed by rules of pra ctice, of which 10 all lawyers here are presumably aware, which directs hic to 11 answer your questiens and onl2 you questions, and te he 12 careful in understanding your questiens because ;erhaps your 13 language is act as precise as the lan;uage that the S?C 14 people or the Consumers people who are knculed;eable i.- the 15 area use.
16 He dees answer all cuestions fully and has 17 responded to all of your appropriate questions.
This brings 18 us back to one of the problems of using the N3C cngoin; 19 review as a discovery device in this proceeding, which is 20 not only improper but, to the extent that it goes on with 21 the kncviedge of the lawyer, is unethical as well.
o 22 MR. FACON:
Are you instructing your witness not i
23 to answer the. question?
24 V. R. 2AMARIN:
Yes, I am.
The record speaks for 25 itself. He has answered all questiens completely and has ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. 3.0. 20C24 f:021554 2345
i 199 1
answered all a;;repriate questions.
2 5Y !?..
?ATON: (Fesuming) 3 0
hr. Forn, in your opinion, what are the d
qualification requirements for ycur present ;0sition?
5 A
It would be te have obtained a bachelor of science 6 d+;ree in rivil engineering, preferably certified civil 7 engineer; approximately 5 to E years nuclear experience in
~
8 CA/CC.
That is all.
9 C
Oc you have those qualifications?
10 2
Tes, with the exception of certified civil 11 engineer.
12 C
Are you s reg is te r ed pr0fescional en;ineer?
13 A
y, 14 C
fou ured a different expression.
15 A
certified civil engineer.
16 certified civil engineer?
17 A
'les.
That is what : used.
18 C
Jo you equate :nese :Vo?
19 A
- yes, 20 0
This is a fellow-up question te something ! asked 21 y'Ou yesterday.
I asked you about your education, and I o
22 don't think I asked you at that time whe the r ycu had 23 attended any seminars or other training in CA cr CC that you 24 didn't relate to us yesterday.
25 Can'veu recall wh ether you attended an y seminars ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, i
l
' 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554 2345 l
190 i
1 or other training that you did not relate to us yesterday in 2 QA cr OC?
3 A
- yes, 4
C Can you tell us about these?
5 A
A pprcxima tely 197c, I received a course.
It was 6 th$ 1. F.arvin Johnson, and ! don't recal* the title of the 7 cource.
- t was, I believe, f ur or five days long.
I have 8 had t rainin g in nondestructive examination.
This was 9 approximately thrae to four days.
Examina tion was given at 10 the end of that time.
11 I have received training in Feg ;uides. ! don't 12 recall the actual numbers.
- have received training and 13 ::sining sessions on our own procedures at various times 14 throughout th-+ time that I have heen at the Yidland site.
I 15 attended a concrete seminar, I believe in '75 in Chicage, 4
16 which was talking thou: Ai!!/ASME concrete require:ents.
17 That is all can recall in a C A/0C seminar orientatier..
18 0
You said training in Reg guides.
Ecv long did you 19 spend doing that?
^
20 A
Apprcximately tyc days.
21
~
You said at various times ycu had training in you:
4 C
22 own p recedures.
How much total time de you think you spen 23 en that?
24 A
Approximately 100 hours0.00116 days <br />0.0278 hours <br />1.653439e-4 weeks <br />3.805e-5 months <br />.
25 0
Oc you have an crinion as te whether the to; ALDERSON REPORTINO COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. 0.C. 20024 7202) 554 2345
igi 1
management at Consueers Power has an a ttitude that is 2 supportiva of ar affective 1:;1ementation cf the CA prograr?
3 h3. CAMAE!N Objection.
"e answered that 4
yesterday.
5 You can answer it.
6
. u.. :_
z~.yr__ee
- v. a. _e.
a 7
gy vE. ?ATON: (Resuming) 8 C
Oo you have an opinion?
What is that opinion?
9 A
That we de have management sup;cr cf Our ;A 10 prograr and that they would implement the effectiveness of 11 that pro; ram.
12 C
I'm sorry. That they would implement that?
13 A
Yes.
14 C
Oc they?
15 A
yes.
16 C
What is-your basis for that opinien?
17 ME. ZAMAEIN.
Again, objection.
Asked and 18 ancvered yesterday.
19 Again, gc ahead and ansver.
20 THE WITNESS :
Eased on manpower, based on the
~
21 precedures.that have been established, based on the 22 or;aniration, I feel that the management is responsive to 23 the'CA-program-at Midland.
24 BY 53. PATON: (2*suming) 25 You said based on the manpower.
What does that ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, iNC.
400 vtRGINtA AVE. S W.. WASHINGTON D.O. 20024 202!554-2345
102 1
mean?
2 A
Based on the nunber of people that are in :ne 3
field in the OA Organization.
4 0
You say based on the numbers of people.
! still 5 don't know whether there are i million or 5 million rec;1e.
6 How many people are th e re ?
'a' h a t dc ycu rean, based On the 7 number of pe:ple?
Hev many pecple?
8 v3. ;AMARIN:
Objection to the form. You have 9 asned him tvc questions.
'a' h a t does he mean, based on the 10 number of pec;1e 11
'3.
PATON:
He sn.id manpcVer.
! said what de you 12 mean by tha t, and he said ;ec;1e.
13
- 33. ZAMARIN:
You have asked tvc questions.
My 14 only problem is the co mpc un d. !f ycu sepsra te then Out, that 15 is fine.
16 3Y MP. FATON: (Resumin;)
T7 C
Are you having difficulties with my questions?
18 Sc.
19 "3.
ZAMARIN:
Fut it is two questions.
20 v3. PATON:
He is not having any difficulty.
He 21 just said so.
22 v3, IAMA3IN:
It is impreper-form.
You have asked 23 him two-questLons: one, the number of people, and what does 24 he mean, based on the number cf people.
If you ask him two 25 separate questionr, that is fine.
' ALOERSON 4E80RTING 00MPt.NY. INC.
400 V.RGINIA AV5. S.W., WASHNGTON. C.C. 20024'i22 554 2345
1 3 Y T.S. ?ATON: (Resuming) 2 O
Can you handle both of those questions?
3 ME. ZA5AEIN:
You asked him two questions.
- v. 3 PATON:
I am going to ask the questions ry 5 vay.
- am not going to a sk the questions your way.
- f you 6 instruct him not to ansver, fine.
7 yp. ;AyAFIN:
If they are patently im; oper, he 8 cannot answer them.
3 YP. PATON:
let's don't sit here all day and 10 argue.
If you don't want him to answer, tell hin no: to 11 answer.
12 v, g, ;AMAF:N He csn an.ever if you ask him two 13 questions.
14 Y3. PATOS:
71 esse answer y question.
You 15 haven't been instructed not to answer it.
16
'E.
CAMAEIN:
Don't answer it unless he asks a
'7 pro per question.
18 3Y v.3. p.: T ON : (Resuming) 19 0
Would you answer my question, please?
)
20 A
No.
21 0
You refuse to answer the question ?
22
- 32. CAMAEIN:
Yes. :: is a compound question.
If 23 you ask them separa tely, he vill answer them.
24 ME. PATON:
'a'e don ' t have to do this.
Just say 25 don't answer the question and go right on.
. AL:)ERSCN RE.*oRTING COM*ANY. INC.
400 VtRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON. 0.0.20024 :2021S!4-2245
+
1
l i
1 i
190 1
EY h3. PATCN: (Fesuming) 2 C
You said man;cwer.
3 A
Yes.
4 0
- ' hat do ycu mean by that?
5 A
The numbers of people in the field 0 i:;lement 6 the CA prograc, and in the Office.
7 C
De you mean there are a lot Of pec;1e?
8 A
Yes.
9 C
?o you mean there are sufficient ;ec;1e?
10 A
Yes.
11 0
"ov many pec;1e a re there?
12 A
A;;rrxinarely 40.
13 C
And this is in your new strike that.
14 Ycu have a new crganiration in your C A s
- ucture, 15 is that ri;ht?
16 A
Yes.
I'7 C
And there are DC people in that structure, in that 18 o rganira tion?
19 A
A;;roximately DC pec;1e in the st ructur e, yes.
20 C
And those people are now employed, they are nov On 21
$oard. They are not prospective em;1oyees?
Z!
A Yes.
23 0
Yes they are now employed?
24 A
Yes, approximately 40 pecple.-
25 All right, approximately 30.
And thtt is an i
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W. ' WASWINGTON, D.C. 20024 1202)554 2345
l.
..er:
i I
1-indication tc ycu, that is at least some indication to you j
2 that te; =anatement has an attitude that is supportive cf an 3 effective 1:p ementation of the CA program, is that correct?
4 A
Yes.
4 5
0 s this O A organiration -- would you describe it 6 as a CA crganization er a OA/CC creanization?
7 A
A C A cr;aniza tion.
8 0
Does this have employees in it cf both Consuners S and Bechtel?
10 A
- Yes, 11 Q
And any other cc:pany?
12 A
Yes.
13 0
Whe? What company?
14 A
There are contract ;ersennel that ars empicyed.
15 They are em;10yed by Consumers but they are throu:h a 16 contract a;ancy.
17 C
.pproximately how many people are there?
18 A-Approximately 15.
19 C
Cf the 40, approximately how many of those are 20 -Con stners ;eople?
21 A
Approximately eight.
22 C
Eight Consu=ers.
Approximately hcw many from 23 3echtel?
.24 A
'It would be the remainder.
25
'E.
ZAYARIN.
The remainder less the 15 contract ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 vtRGINIA AVE. S.W.. WASHINGTON. C.C. 20024 (2021554 2345
196 1
people.
2 31-33,,oATCN: (Resuming) 3 C
'et me suggest seme hing to you and see if it is 4 correct.
App cximately new, would this he ap p:0xima tely 5 correct -- ei;ht.C:nsumers ;ec;1e, 17 9echtel ;eeple, and 15 6 f:ce the other c ;anization or c ;anizatiens?
7 a.
Yes.
8 C
3efore this rect;anization, how many people did 9 Consumers have in thei: C A crgani stion, ap pr xima tely?
i 10 A
There are twc reorganizations f airly recent.
The I
i 11 ene chsnge war approximately cade as of this year.
That 12 reecved the auditing section from our group.
The second f
13 re0:canization was a pproxir ately in August, and that was the 14 combination of the Fechtel c:ganization with the Ocnsumers 15 o rgani s tion.
'w'hich one veuld you 16 Sefore the Organics:1:n that combined the Bechtel l
17 and :he Consumers creanizatien, how many people vera there 18 in Consumers' CA organization?
19 A
Approxi=ately 20.
20 C
At that same time how many people were th ere in 21 the 3echtel QA organization assigned to the F.idland case?
22 A
Approximately the sa.?e.
23 C
Do you mean app cximately 207 24 A
Yes.
25 0
.t. : that time did you have any of these centrac:
ALOERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INO.
' 4C0 VIRGINfA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTCN. 0.C. 20024 ' 0:1554-2345 l.
19' I
employees?
.4 A
Yes.
3 C
How many of thess did you have?
4 A
A pproxim a tely ten.
5 g
f I add those nu hers u;, the nurbers involving 6 the ^ A o rganiza tion prior to the combina tion of Consumers 7 and Eechtel, ! get 24 Consumers, 24 3echtel and 10 fror
~
S other organizations, for a total of 50.
9 A
Vo.
You asked me -- ! tho ugh t whe: you asked me 10 was how many of the 20 are --
11 C
Ch, the 10 from other organizations are within 12 Consumers.
13
.n.
- s-u...
14 C
So Consumers had 20, 10 Of their own people and 10 15 from other organirations.
16
- . 4,.w...
17 Q
3echtel had 20.
18 A
Pight.
19 0
I get a total of 40.
20 A
Yes.
21 C
Under the new or;snization I get a total of 60.
22 A
Yes.
23 Q
So how does manpower tell me that is a better 1
24 program.
25
_A The tetter prograr.-is that in many cases the ALOERSON PEPORTING tOMPANY, INC.
~ 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASH 6NGTON. 0.C. 2002d (202) 554 2345
19E 1
Eechtel organiration was working on the same ;reblems as the 2 Consumers cr;anization.
Consumers would identify a prehlem.
3 They would give it to Eechtel CA to vc k it cut.
Sc we had 4 duplication of effort.
5 Q
Tine.
! understand du;11:ation cf eff ort.
Eu: :
6 thought your first 'oint on why the progra: was better is 7
that ycu had acre people.
Did I misunderstand you?
l 8
A No.
You were correct.
9 0
It is better because you have scre people?
10 A
Yec.
-11 C
Eut is I added th e numbers, y00 h. ave CC new and 12 you had 40 before.
Is that =cre people?
13 A
No, it is not rore pecple.
The mere man;cver is 14 based on previcus year: of work.
15 0
Mr. Horn, ycu indicated that thero were ?.cre 16 pec;1e -- when you said.an;cwer, ycu Iean there are : Ore 17 people now assigned to CA at the Midland si te, is that 18 correct?
19 ME. CAMA?.IN:
More now than when?
20 Yg. pA GN Please de not censtantly interru;t the 21 interrogation.
Will you jurt let me ask th e witness?
P 22
'?.
CAMA?IN:
That is not an intelligible 23 question.
You said there are core.
More than when?
You 24 are asking him to compare'a;;1es against nothing.
25 v3.'?ATON:
The witness is not having anywhere ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. int.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W.. WASHINGr0?. 0.0. 20024 !202) 554-2345 I
i-i
- 1. 0. C.
1 near the difficulty that you apparently are havin;.
- vish 2 you veuld just let him if he dces net understand the 3 question, he can say so and : vill change the question.
4 XE. CAMARIN:
I will cbject to its forn.
You ash 5 him te compara something and you haven't told hi: what to 6
compare it againct.
That s all ! vant.
/
!E. PATON4 Are you telling him not te answer?
8 yg, ;AhARIN:
Yes, because it can't te answered.
9 ZF. PATON:
Okay.
All you have to de is say 10 " Do n ' t answer the question," and : vill ge right en tc ths 11 n ex t question.
You don't have tc hate all these Itag-winded 12 ex;1anations.
Just say " Don't answer the questien."
13
- 53. ZAMARIN:
vanted to tell you my p r o b le.? so 14 you can a s r.
the question snd get the answer you ant.
15 v2 FATON:
It is takin; up a lot of time, but !
16 vill tsk ancther question.
Ycu have told hi: not to answer 17 th+ questian.
I will'ask him another question.
18 3Y %?. PA!ON: (Eesumin;)
19 0
Did you state that one of the reascns that yeu 20 thought top management at Consumers Power had an attitude 21 that was su;;ortive of effective it;1ementation of a OA
%! program was increased manpower?
23 A
Yes.
I don't recall saying increased ~ man;cver.
I 24 said manpower.
25 0
Fine.
By anpower, did you mean increased ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGIN!A AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (2021554-2345L
i 200 sanpower?
i A
Yes.
3 q
can you tell me sp;roximately what the increase in 4 can;cver was?
5 A
- ncrease in man;cver was begun in
'73.
6 c
My question was what was the increase in I manpower.
By that : meant by what at:ber of men did you
~
8 increase?
9 A
'a'e increasead from one man in Q A in '73 to the 10 p ssent or;aniration of s;;roximately 30 people.
11 C
Under the cerbined C.i cr;ani:ation, you indicated 12 consu:*rs ?ower has eight rec;1e plus 'ifteen ;ec;1e vne are
'3 contracted for, is that ri;ht?
14 A
Yes, a;; cximately.
15 0
Do you know whether Consumerr is spending the cost 16 of :3ese eight people ;1cs the fif teen pec;1e any =cre or 17 less on persennel for A than they were before this latest 18 reorganinstion?
19 A
They would ;robably be spendin; more.
20 g
assume you cannot a;; cximate how much more.
21 A
- de not know what we were paying for Bechtel 22 people at the time prior to the recrqaniration. ! don't knov 23 specifically what we are paying for them now.
24 C
You aise mentioned procedures.
25 2
Yes.
i I
i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON, 0.0. 20024 (102)554-2345 1
l
nr..
I Can you explain to me how any. changes in 2 ;recedures say have evidenced to you that scp management in 3 Censurers Fever nas an attitude that is suppcrtive cf an 4 ef f ective in;iesentation of the C A pregrac?
5 A
The precedtres we nad in '73 have teer increased.
r 6 There is mere c;ecificity in these, procedures for the vc k 7 7oing on, and we have the ever inspection that we did not 8 have 1: 1973.
9 0
to you equate ever inspection with ha.4s_-on work?
10 A
yec.
- 1 C
- take it ynr opinien is that Ccnst.ers should 12
- ave. conducted more crer inspection in the past, is that 13 correct?
14 A
n the scii? area, yes.
15 0
! r.
the sciir area, does yeer cpinien continue 16
- day?
17 A
\\' c.
18 C
- n ; cc
- rect th a t it is your opinion today that 19 Consu=crs ir conductin; sufficient hands-on inspection o r 20 over inspection it. the solis area?
21
,1 yes.
22
'4 h a t kind of verk ic scing on in the solis area 23 novi 24 A
- am not in the II E~ TV group section.
They are 25 the proup that ;oes out and ctserves the work and performs i
1 1
I ALDERSON RE*ORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. G.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 200:4 CO2) 554 2345 1
.o n.n I
the over inspections.
1 believe that there is backfill.
2 There is backfill mainly areund ;iping excavation and 3 backfill around piping.
4 C
The !? i TV is a gecup, is that what you call it?
5 A
Yes.
6 O
- 2. r e these Sechtel pec;1e?
7 A
These are the MFCA croup.
They h appen to be 8 Sechtel ;esple, yes.
i 9
0 What dees that :.e a n, !?CA?
10 A
The ecmbined grou; ir the Midland ? ciect Oualit?
11 Assurance ::oup, which includes Sechtel, Consuners and 12 contrac
- ersonnel.
13 0
Mov cany pec;1e are in that grcup?
14
. h
- v. e. n..t.,.
15 C
. w. e. :
r.
. '1,- - r.
16 A
. ependinc en which discipline.
17 n,
ec.4 1.e.
18 A
Soils, there are three.1 19 C
?c you know what percent Of their ti.e they s;end 20 on soils wo rk ?
21 A
I don't know.
22 0
Do you know their nanes?
23 1
Yes.
24 0
%ould you state their names?
25-John - Cro y, Seb Seve a nd - Yoh* Da vis.
ALOERSON REPcRTING COMPANY, INO.
400 VtRGlNIA AVE,. S.W... WASHINGTCN. O.C. 200:4 (202:554 2345
n e.:
=V
- 1 0
Those three people you just named de ha ve Other 2 responsibilities other than scils verk.
3 A
Yes.
4 C
Oetting back to the nuchers, in other words, the 5 new OA orpaniration you indicated had eight Censumers 6 people, app cximately 17 people, and apprcxinately ~5 f cm 7 other organirati:ns.
8 A
yes.
9 0
Could you name tna cther er;aniration or other 10 o rg anira tion s i 11 A
Not all of them.
! don't recall all cf thee.
'i e 12 have approximately -- we have some that have ce=e in te de 13 over inspections in th e a re a of Zack, and : a not sure what 14 company they are from.
We have SAI.
! am not sure what 15 that stands fer.
16 0
Okay, that is fine.
As far as you kncv, that is 17 the name of a renpany, SAI?
18 A
Yes.
19 0
04ay, fine.
20 A
It is not the name'of a company but ahbreviations 21 Eor a company.
22 0
Okay.
i 23
)
A new person was added Monday.
I'am not sure what 1
24 company they are from.
There are s=me fror U.S. Testine.
25 C
Okay. I.at satisfied with_your answer.
If you l
I l
l i
I ALOERSON RE8CRTING OCMDANY. INO.
4C0 VIRGIN!A AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. 0 C. 20024 (2C2) 554 2345 L.
\\\\
l I
l l
204 1
vant t; cc ;1ste it, that is okay.
2 A
- think that is all ! can rene:ber.
3 0
Why do you go cutside the 2:nsumers and Bechtel 4 organi:s tion to hire ?
Are these people CA/CC?
5 A
They have QA/OC tack;rcund, yes.
6 0
The wo:x they fe, is that CA work :: OC work?
7 A
OA verk.
8 C
- A work.
"hy dc you go cutside :: cur organization 9
to hire
- 5 people to de CA vork '
10 A
For their knowledge, for their experience.
The 11 job is short-ter to brin; people in.
12 C
!s that ch aracteristic of the verk these people 13 would de that the jobs they are assigned to are net 14 ;cng-lasting? As you say, they are short-term.
15 A
so=e sra, yes.
16 C
- s that true of the verk that they vill de in 17 connection with Zack?
18 I ar not sure what the length of tire is on their I9 contracts.
20 Mr. "orn, I asked you about your use of tne word 21
" procedures."
You sta ted there were three bases for your 22 opinion that :p management at Consumers has an ettitude 23 supportive of an eff ective im plementation cf T A.
We have 24 discussed man;cwer.
My recollection is : asked you about 25 protedures and your rerponse was that procedures nad ALDEPSON 8tEPoR* LNG OOMPANY. 'NO, 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. O.C. 20024 i202! 554 2345
d 2n.c 1
increasend c: there were more ; :cedures.
2
!s tha: accurate?
3 A
Yes.
That was part of the =nsver, ! believe.
4 I may be ic:getting the ancver that you just gave, 5 but what is it abcut the procedures that ycu ha ve fust 6
_..'._tc,_. e. ~.k. a. ~.~. a <. a. e s
- u. c y., <-..u..s.e.
=. ~. ~. _<... ^ c c ~.. ~..u. e
,.e - ~. c '.
a
.m 7 manage ent that is su;;c:tive of OA7 8
A Th's p ccedures were core specific and they 9 included the over inspection as c;;osed to ne over 10 inspection in the past.
i
- 1 0
The third itec yet centiened was or;aninstion. Can 12 you tell :e hev th a t reflects to ycu :anagement a-titude 13 with respect to OA7 14 A
The breaking up cf
- t. e c:ganizatien int: the 15 :;uality assurance engineerin; and the' II i TV
- :; s;11:
16 respensiti;ities and put exper-ise in the a reas cf those 17 ras pe nsibilitie s.
18
.c
- n your opinion, there has been a substantial 19 improvement because of the new c:7anization and the 20 eff ectiveness of your O A ;:cgram.
21 A
Yes.
2 C
!s there anything about the new CA';:cgram that 23 you think is less efficient than-what you had before?
24 a.
No.
25 C
.M r. Mc n, would yeu state your understanding of ALDERSON RE*0MT'NG COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. 5.W', WASHINGTON. O.C. 200 4 CO21554 2345
i
'0e.
1 quality control?
2 A
Ouality centrol is first line inspection to 3
planned procedures te control the 1:plementation of 4
specifications and other requirements.
5 0
Yr. Horn, I want to read you a state =ent and ask 6 you if ycu agree with it.
"The persons and cr;anirations 7 perforcing quality assurance functions shall have sufficient 8 authority and organirational freedom to identify quality 9 probler.s, to initiate, recommend or provide solu-ions, and 10 se verif y implementation ci sclutions."
11 Oo you 1;ree with that?
12 A
Yes.
13 0
- vint to read you another statement. "Such 14 persens and'cr;anitatiens performin; quality assurance 15 functions shall report t0 managerent levels such as this 16 required authcrity, and crcanirational freeder., including 17 i ns uf ficien t independence from cost and schedule, when 18 op;csed to safety considerations are provided."
19 Do ycu agree with that?
20 A
res.
2*
O Coes that mean that in taking decisiens,-that you 4.
22 should net be impacted by cost?
23 X3. CAMARIN:~
When you say that, are you referrin; 24 to the second sentence you read?
25
??.. PATON:
Yes, with reference to the second ALOERSON REPORTING OOMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASr*INGTON, 0.0. 20024 e2221554 2345
.. - - ~
207 1. sentence that ! read.
2
- v. y. r_
~a ~. ~. ': v _e c_ v. s s.
3 Ev XE. PATON: (? suming) 4 0
Oces.1: also mea: tha t you should not be sffected
-o by schedule?
6 A
Yes.
7 C
Oid anyone ever discuss with ycu, anycne at 8 Consumers ever discuss that subject with you, any supervisor?
9 A
Fot that : can recall.
10
- c you kacv when you learned that, the last 11 sta temen t that ! read to ycu?
12 A
I believe in 1973.
13 C
- n your censidera tion of the scils problem at 14 vidiand, did you ever consider the cost of the remedy t0 th e 15 problem?
16
- v. g.
A.". A E ! N :
Could : have that read back, please?
17 (The pending question was read by the reporter.)
18 MR. ZAMA2!N4 Objectica to the form of the 13 question.
20 Yce can answer if ycu understand.
21
- HE WI
- sEss:
No, I. don't understand.
Z!
BY
'E.
PATON (Eesuming) 23 C
There was a time, I believe, in connection with 24 soils vo:V. you told me, you ctated that you seriously 25 considered issuinc a sto; verk c der.
Is tha: =c rect?.
l i
i Al.CERSON REPCRTING COMPANY. INO.
. 400 VIRGINTA AVE. S.W., WASH:NGTON. 0.0. 200:4 (2:2:554 2345 s-s
(
s L
4 4
- 3. 0 =.
1 A
Yes.
2 When you seriously censidered tha t matter, did you 3 take into 1 count the cost of the action that ycu vere 4
pre;csing, that you vere conte: pitting taking?
5 A
Yec.
6 can you tel; us hev that affected your thinking' 7
A
?y continuing work, I did not feel that there 8 vould be an additional high ces impact en continued verk.
9 C
Did you consider what it vculd cost te step verk?
10 A
ye.
11 Your st ateren t is ycu didn't censider it would be
^
j 12 a high ces: := conti..ne work.
!s that your statement?
13 A
Yes.
M d ?.. CAXAE'Na
- think he said high ces; impact.
15
- v.
v:. ::. 9u.
- e e... r.4 16
r. 'Ac r n, d: you know whst the schedule is to 17 Complete constructi0n it the Midland f a cilit y ?
18 A
Yes.
19 v s.. a.
w s +....,
20 A
To have Unit 2 completed in 195c and Unit 1 in 21 1985.
U 0
These are your construction complet:en dates?
23 A
Those are Censumers construction ccepletion dates, 24 yes.
25 0
Do you know when that estimated construction I
l ALOE
- SON REPORTING COMPANY, INO, 400 vtRGIN'A AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. 0.C. 20:24 (2021554 2345
. ~...-
t ;
_ w -.
q
^
.2C9 s :ived t?
1-compietion sc?.edule fas'madeLo:-
s 2
A
'i o, I don't recall.
It js a car.tinuni schedi:le5 s.
3 It chances.
^ *l
, s
^
.1 A
Yes.
\\
^
5 C
00 you. knc v wha t < t?.e e xpec ted 4a tes.'ef : 'r+:cial 6 operation are?
~
~
7
'hore are the, dates --
i 8
C Wouldn't ec..struc tion cc mp.l'.r tion, b s;; cgimately g
. },
9 six months before that?
\\.
\\
\\
~
s i
10 A
yes.
=
11 Oc you 's-l0 N.oJ h dr. :r.9 ;1 ants!are reqcired~oi,gither
~;
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12 ;iant ic requi:ed c go info ^c;eratica, under the fontract s
,s 13 that you have with Dev Che':ics1 fe; stear?
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14 1
- believe it' is'bece:ber 3:f 1995.
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19 commercial operation,;;i; N to ?ebwmbe
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24 company and to you.that Unit 1 co into operation by Speember.
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25 inc ;:: cess?
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1 A
No.
2 0
Did T.S.
Testing run ecmpaction tests fer Eechtel?
3 A
Yes.
4 0
Did
".2 Testing fail te report deviations fro:
5 specified compaction requirements?
6 A
Not that ! recall.
7 0
Y.r. Ho rn, I want to hand ycu a letter dated 8 February 1,
1978 from ?echtel sc U.S. Testing 70mpan7 9
- R.
2A%ARIN:
'4 h y don't we mark that Exhibit 3?
10 vF. FATON:
I will mark it as Deposition Ixhibit 3 11 as of today's dats, Cetober 22nd.
12 (The dccument referred te was 13 narked Deposition Exhibit 3' 14 f:: id en tifica tio n. )
15 SY
- ?.
FATCN: (Fusuring) 16 0
- vill ask you a questien abcut a specific portien 17 of the entire letter.
If you want te read the entire 18 letter, you may.
19 Sir, vould you read the first sentence of the 20 paragraph that begins "!n conclusion" on th e second Lage?
~
21 vs. 2AxARIN:
Why don't you read the whole thinc?
22 THE WITNESS:
I finished reading that.
23 3 Y
F. P A T O N : (Resuming) 24 0
The first sentence in the second to last paragraph 25 tht becins with " n conclusion."
- don't want to ask you ALDERSON PE*CR LNG COMPANY, INC, 400 WRG6NtA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. 0.0. 200:4 I:02)554 2345
's It I
1
-aa 4.
I whe her you aq ee vf.th the entire sentence becauseL:he ~ast 2
part of taa. sentenes says the-U.S. Testino is therefere s
3 lizbie fc: costs, and J don't van' te ask'yce about snat.
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8 17 lack of compac-fon of ^ the fill'a t-tne. Yid 1End site?
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%3. 2AMAEIN:
I don't know if this was completely 2 identified f or the record. Ycu have been referrin: to NFC 3 ;eposition I.v.hibit Number 3 as of today 's date, which is 4 rorrespondence froc Bechtel Power Cor;cration te U.S.
5 Cesting 00mpany, Inc.
Ref e rence is failure cf fill 6 supporting the administratica buildinq grade beac at celurn 7 line'C.u C-20?-B-286.
S 3y v?. PACON. (Resuring) 9 0
Mr. Ho rn, have you ever heard anyone in Censumers 10 mention a prospective er actual law suit between Consumers 11 and Eechtel arising out of the soils protiet?
12 A
cou;d have the question read back again?
13 (the pending questice was read by the re;orter.)
14 "n ".. y r e e.
Na.
16 O. V.
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16 Tid there ctne a ti:e during the censtruction of 1'7 the administration building that it was neticed that there 18 was settle ent in excess of what was expected?
19 A
Yes.
20 C
Co you know what the cause of tha t sett'ement was?
21
~
A set all the causes,
.o.
I de act recall all the on-- causes.
23 0
What was the da te or approximately when did you 24 first know that there was a ; chlem with the settlement of 25 the administration building?
ALOERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (2021554 2345 '
.sa 1
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Q "as it substantially before you knew abcut the 3 se.tlement proble: at the diesel gene'rator building?
4 X ?.. Z A M A ?. !N :
Objection to form.
5
- "I *4!"NES The question is tec general 6
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7 0
Can ycu answer the question?
8 A
I don 't kncv vhat yen mean ti substantial.
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14 Your answer was you didn't knew when the administration 15 building happened.
16
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'2 17 vere vorried about the protien with the diesel generator 15 building?
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20 C
- c you hate any idea hev much tefere?
21 A
.!; proximately a y ear.
"2 Q
-: think you indica ted that ycu knev ene of the 23 possible causes. I asked you about the causes of the p ctie:
24 at the administration buildin;.
25 A
I knew after the diesel' genera:Or ;rchlem what the d
l At/TRSON PE80RTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRG:NIA AVE. S.W.. WASHINGTCN, 0.0. 20024 (202:554 2345
I 213 1
causes were.from iccking at reccrds. I was not aware cf the 2 causes pri;r to :he diesel generater building problems, to 3 the' test of my recollection.
4 C
When you first learned ci the problet at the 5
administration building, did you attempt te determine what 6 the cause vas?
7 A
vo.
8 C
Am I ccrrect.that you did nc-consider tha-within 9
the scope of your job at that time?
10 A
Yes, that is correct.
"I C
It is correct you did net consider it within the 12
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13 A
' hat is correct.
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a 15 the cause of that probler. was?
16 A
Yes.
17 "m h o d.4 e
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- vould have been 2echtel and Consumers' pre;ect 19 management organiration.
20 g.
- o you know cf an ytedy in Ocasteers IcVer who has 21 heer. -- strike that.
o 22 Do ycu kncv whether Consur ers ?cver has taken any 23 adverse personnel action against ~ against anyone that verks 24 fer-Consumers Fever because of the soils-;rchlem?
- 25 vs. ZAy,AF.V:
Crdection as. o fcrt.
1 i
i 1
Ai.DERSON mEPORTING COM*ANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 2' 024 t:02)554-2345
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$ 9. E.
I YOU Car ET.SWer.
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C Co ycu know whether 3echtel Cc:Ocration has taken 5
any adverse personnel action a;ainst any em;1 cree of E e c..t e l 6 because of -he soils p:chle:7 7
v,:. aAvAEIN:
Cbdection as to form.
8 THE WIU;ESS:
Not that I an aware of.
9
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10 that action was taken by Eecntel a*.d/cr Consurers 11 as a result of the perceived proble: v i t.'
the administratior 12.- u _4.,.a.a.
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13 A
can : have the ::uestion back again?
14
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18 C
Did Consumers de anything about the cer:eived 19 prcblem?
20 v, E. ;AMAEIN:
Objection as to f 0::..
~
21 HE *.I:yIss:
t is tec general. I ion' 22 understand.
23 EY vE. ?A*0N: (Eesuming) 24 0
You say there vac a p:chlem?
25 A
Yes.
g l
ALDERSON 8E8CPTING 03MPANY, INO.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W. WASHINGTON. O.C. 200:4 (20 1 E54 2345 -
216 1
0 Did Consumers do anythin about the ;rchlem?
2 YE.
A.5APIN:
Objection as to f: m.
3 IHE 4:TyEss:
The question is tco general.
4 3Y MF. PA!ON: (Resu:ing) 5 C
Oc you know whether Consumers did anything atcut 6
this perceived ~ ; oblem?
7 FE. ZAMA?!N Objection as the ic :.
8
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9 FY ME. PATON: (Resuming) 10 Your answer is yes?
11 5.
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12 a.
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13 A
The material var moved, as stated in that letter 14 that you had there.
".a erial was secved.
And as the 15 material was bein; removed, it was coe;ared to p cciors that 16 had been taken ; eviously and tests tha: '. a d been taken 17 previously.
They. removed the concrete that we had ; chlems 18 with and began to wri e them anew.
They teck terin;: in 19 certain locations per that document that you showed me.
20 They had meetings with the test lab.
That is all that : can
.P*
- OCa.1a.
22 C
- A f te r all th a t, did Consumers determine what.the 23 cause of the cettlement ; ohlem was?
24 A
Not that ! recall.
Fechtel did, but ! dcn't-25 recall if OcDsumers did or not.
1 ALCERSON REPCPTING COMPANY, INC.
ar.0 vic 3.NIA AVE S.W,. WASH'NGTON. O.C. 20024 2021554 2345
i
$9 ".7 1
You san 3echtel did determine the cause of the 2 p.
- s. e,
3 A
Yes.
4 Old they ever tell Censumers?
5 1
- don't recall.
6 You know that 3ech al deter:-ined -he cause?
A Yes.
8 Q
Eut you don't kncv vhether they ever 01d 9 Consunsrs?
10 A
That is right.
11 e.
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17 "E.
ZAMAE*N:
Cifection as :c for:.
Oc you mean 18 as te his knowledge?
$.9
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To your kncwledge.
- 41
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.c 22 EY ME. PATON. (E=suming) 23
'th e ?
24 At least 3echtel.
I'=
not sure whether Consumers 25 ga're that question to Zechtel er not.
ALOERSON REPOGNG COMOANY. INO.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W.. WASHING CN D.C. 20024 !202) 554 2345
l l
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2 the proble: vas n0: an isolated problen?
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4 THE W:TNESS:
I rust gave that.
! a: net sure.
S v?. TATON:
You want me te anend.ty ;usstion and 6 say to his knowledge?
7
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9 ever; case, so I guess if ycu want to instruct him not to 10 answer tne nection, please ge ahead.
11
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.AT^5:
It is proper form in every question to 13 say to his knowledge ?
Is that what you are sayin;?
14
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15 coreone else 's mind, it 14.
Eid anyone think it?
You hava 16
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17 wha t ;ec;1e are thinking.
18 "E.
PA!ON:
If
at comes up again, we vill face 19 it whenever ask hi what is in semeene else 's nind.
~
20
- t. y w; S. a* m a..N*
(.Q 3. s a.,..ng) 21 Nov 7etting back te what we vere talking about,
^
o 22 did you say that Dechtel deternined the cause of the f ailure?
23 A
Yes.
24 Oc ycu kncv what that cause was?
25 Yes.
ALDERSON REPOFTING COMPANY, INC.
'~
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W.. WASHINGTON. C.C. 20024 :202)554 2345
- s e.
1 a,
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4.9 2
A
?ased on that document, it was the selection of 3 p ceters, i
4 yg, A.v.A315:
That docu:ent is ref errin; to 5
- X.6.
w4 s.
6
?! *.*.. OATCS8 ( 3esumin g )
7 C
The selectien cf erroneous proc crs.
8 A
Yes.
9 0-Ey U.S. Testing?
10 A
Yes.
11
.0 And'scr.eone at Eechtel thoucht tha: this ; roble:
12 was acre widespread than just at the administration building?
13 A
Yes.
14 Whc was that?
15 A
I den't recall.
kncv 3echtel cok action en 16
-h=t.
! don't know whc within 3echte; teck :he action.
4 17 0
" hat action did 3echtel take?
18 A
They took horings in other 10ca:10ns.
19 7
h' hat was the purpcue of that?
20 A
T: determine if there was a preble with 21 insufficient compaction of material.
E C
Did they get a result?
23 A
Yes.
24 C
Wnat was that result?
' 25.
A Adequate results.
ALOER$CN REPCATING COMPANY. INO 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W. WASHINGTON D.C. 200:4 (2C2) 554 2345
-220 1
O Adequate results.
- 'h a t does tha: mean?
a 2
A-That there wasn 't a prcbloc wi:P insufficient 3 conpaction cf backfill in these areas where they tcok 4 borines.
5
- here did they take horings?
a 6
A They teck some arcund the administra:Len 7 building.
They took one south cf the diesel generate:
8 building, and ! believe they took one-by the chierination 9 building.
10 So, cther than around the ad.tinistra'.ict building, 11 they :cck tv: borings.
12 A
Tc the best of y recollection, that ir correct.
13 You cay cne is scuth cf the diesel cenerator 14 building.
15 Yes.
16 u.. c w ' s. -
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w 17 A
A;;rexi:stely 20 feet.
18 The other ene, where was the other herin-;-taken?-
19
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2 20 0
?o you in ycur ;refessional jud;:ent believe the 21 taxing of.these two bo rings the re, veuld that have satisfied 22 you as to whether this proble: was an isciated problen?
23 ME. CAMAE!N You mean his OA as o;;csed to a 24 geotechnical engineer, which he is not?
25 Y. E. FATON:
In his expertisa.
Oc you want te ge ALDE.* SON RE*QRTING COM8ANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTcN. C.C. :CO24120:! $54 2345
1
.c
- 'e have spent a lot cf time on what his ex;ertise is.
back?
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call ic: the expertise of an gectechnical engineer, v.". i ch h e 4 is not.
5 vs. ;ATON:
We spent a lot of time en his 6 e x - 0.. 4.e e.
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2. a.
.s..e. k..i.,-
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.i 8 him fo: a lay opinion or 9
we.
. A *. C N.-
a-a s V. _'.,...i -
- ... '. n..i...' c.*. '..r
....e 10 ex;ertise.
11
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12
"?.
PATON:
Oc you want me te oc back and ark hi:
13 vha t his expertise is again?
14 w:
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4..
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4
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17 a; pear to ;c tevard gec echnica' engineerin ; expertise.
i 13 v.:...-r;.*.0N4
.e.i.* n '. a s k x..*....w. s..
- s a.d a.
..4..'. 4 n 2
I 19 your ex;er-ize.
We is either an expert in scne area er he 20 is not.
I asked him within ycur ex;ertise.
- assume he 21 knows his evn ex;ertise.
22
! F.. ; A y. A r. N r He can answer it.
have an 23 ohjection te the form of the questien.
24
- E.
PATON:
I have nc idea what the questien is at 1
25 this ;cint.
4 ALDERSON AEPORTING OQMPANY. INO.
400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 2002A :20* 554 *345
n,eze 1
Aculd you please reread the question?
2 (Thc pending question was read by the re;c:ter.)
3
%?. 2AXAFIN:
You can ansus: subject te the 4
Objection, if you can.
5 THE K!! NESS:
I a: net a 7ec echnicni soils 6 engineer, rely on their expertise ind project engineers' 7 eX;ertise in that s ea.
! can't answer that questi0n.
8 EY ME. PATON: ( 3 e su r.in g )
9 C
Did you ever hear anyone at Consumers discuss, ::
10 your kncvled;e, the sdequacy of those tvc tests t: determine 11 vnether the ;;ctler at the adr.inict:ation buildin: vas sn 12 1solated ;:oblem?
13 A
Could I have that read back, ;1 esse?
14 (The ;endin; quest 10n vis read by the reporter.)
15 TE. CAXAEIN:
! object tc tne f0::.
- think he 16 ta;ked abcut =cre thsn two tests.
You vere talkin; ah0ut 17 the one by the chierinition and cne by the diesel ;enerate:
18 building?
19 XE. PATON:
I was s;ecificsily referring to 20 vh.'ther all the tests were tsken.
If you want me to repeat l
21 the questicc, ! viii. I will state do: the record.tht: ny E question is ecuched in terms of whether all the tects that 23 you centioned or all the torin;s that you entioned sere 24 adequate.
d9
. u.. r. # 1..o r.c e :
- v. u.
9 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
l 40: vlRGINIA AVE. C.W., WASHINGTCN. D.0,20C24 (202) 554 2345
e ~. _-
i EY 'JI.
PATC.\\s (E+su=ing) 2 Who did you hear discuss this sutfect?
3 A
- don't recall specifi: peop12.
4 Was there discussion by : ore than one person?
4 5
A
- believe there were various' discussions.
6 Can you tell us whs these discussi:ns were?
7 A
These would have been after the diesel generate:
[
8 buildin; problem, when we ;0 tack and lock at the validity 9 ef the two tests that vere taken.
Evidently they were net 10 enough.
I 11 0
So you were indicatin; th a t ov ve are in 12 hindsight.
Is thst wha ~t you are sayinc?
13 A
Yes.
'd Tell us wha: these statements were, unless you i
f 15 have c 1;1eted your an:ver.
l 16
- s is cem;1eted, 17 The statements vere that the tests were not enouch.
18 A-
- a;; ears evident from the results of the diesel 19 generator building settlement that they were not enough.
l 20
?cu don't have any ar;ument with that conclusion, 21 10 you?
22 A
'c.
23 Oo you have an opinion as te whether there'1: any i
24 Ocnnectic be tween the se ttlement ;;oblen at the 25 administration -- do ycu have an opinion now, based on 4
ALDER $0N REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRG:NIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20C24 -:2021 554 2345 l
c 7
v I
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everythinc you kn:V up until this time, whether there is any 2 - connectier between th e se ttlemen t ;:chlem at the 3 administration building and the settlement ; obier at the 4
diesel genc:stor building ?
5 A
Yes.
6 What is that~ crinion?
7 A
They are.simniar.
c 8
g to they have the same cause?
9 A
They possibly have ;he same cause, yes.
10 t
You esn't.co any =cre than ;cssibly.
You couldn*
11 say ;;chably?
12 A
- ossibly.
believe ve have ;;esented pessible 13 causes.
'de d e n o t specifically know what the ;::blems were 14 in the diesel 7ene rs to: t:11 ding area, what the specific 15 causer vera te ;inpaint one.
We can't de that. "o-vculd 16 civ e pessit".e 03:sec.
17 C
Okay.
- s this the ty;e cf ; oble: that
'8 1.;;eeentation of
'a correct and effective CA p:ccra eight l
19 have detected?
~
~
20 A
The quertion seers tco 7enersi.
~
21 With the knowledge that you ;ained free. the 22 settlement prcblee at ~ the administ:ation building, dc you 23 have any c; inion-ss to whether or ne an effective OA 24.;;ograe mi;ht have prevented the p::blen at the diesel 25 g ene rsto: b"ildin;7 ALCEascy agpoq* NG ;;yeANY, INC.
400 VIRGIN!A' AVE. S.W.. WASHING *CN. O.t. 20024 2C2. 594 2348.
& A >a 4
I YF. ZA%AE!Ns Excuse ze.
Could I have that cae 4
i 2 read back, please?
i 3
'(The pending quentien was read by the reporter.)
T 4
XR. ZAMAE N:
I cbdect to the dere of the question.
5' THE WITNESS:
I.av e a. har d tine trying.tc 6 tnderstand the questien based on the adminict:stien buildin; 7 non-O and the diesel generate: buildin; 0 3'
sv
,vy.
pA;oN (Resuming) 9
-There was nc CA applied to the administration 10 building, is that cc :ect?
I' A
That is correct.
12 0
!id you learn anything. fro: the ex;erience at the 13 administration building?
14 A
After the diesel generate: buildin; settlement,
I i
15 yee.
i 16
?cu tidn't learn anythin; until after the diesel i
1 17 7enerator buildin; settled?
i 18 vg. ;AMA3IN:
- object to the f ers of the question.
i 19 THE WITNESSs That is correct.
l=
20
?Y MF. PATON: ( F.e suming )
i 21 0
- o ycu know of anybody whc1:ade a statement that
' 22 raised the possibility that naybe because the administration 23 bui'iding vss sinkinc, that maybe tnis pr:ble was =cre 24 w i:* es pr e a d than jus t a t the administration buildin;?
25 A
I don't recal* anyone makint that specific f
ALOERSON MfPORTING COMPANY, (NO.
400 VIRGINt A AVE. $.W.. WASHING:ON.
_. -, -0.0.'. 0024 !20** S$4 2348
226 1
statsrent.
2 0
You cta ted that Bechtel ;erformed seme terings for 3 the purpose of determining whether the probier at the 4
administration building was isolated; is th a t ccrrect?
5 A
Yes.
6 pid seentel to th a t verk the:selves or fid they 7 hire somebody else to do it?
8 A~
They hired so:eone.
9 C
Co ycu have any idea who that was ?
10 A
- den't recall right new what the name of the 11 cc pany vis.
12 o you knew of anyone in Conscrerc 7ever who had 13 res;cnsibility t: cermunicate with ?echtel en this subject, 14 on the subject of taking :ne torings fer-the pur;cse of 15 determinin: vhether or net the problet was an isciated 16 ;;ctiem e 17 A
'iould y ou re; eat tne ;uestion again?
16 vE. ZAy.Ag N Could you read it back, please?
19 (The pending question was read by the reporter.)
20
. u. r "a -. y.r.e e. 4 Nc.
~
21 EY M?. PATON: (?asu:ing) 22 C
- et ne try this another way.
When Sechtel 23 performs a f unction like this where they have some borings 24 done for the purpose cf deterninine whether this problem is 25 an isciated pretie=, isn't there fer.ecne within Censumers ALDERSON *EPORTING COMPANY, INO.'
400 VIRGINtA AVE, S.W.. WASHINGTON. 3.C. 200:4 (2001554 2345 1
1 Power that has scae res;cnsibility fc: that-area?
In Other 2 vo ds, Censumers doesn't just turn this over to Ee:htel and 3
say they don't want to hear any =cre.
There rust be some 4 con tact nan c: liaisen man c: somebody that 3echtel re;crts 5 to for this informstion.
6 A
Yes.
7 q
'ho is that?
8 A
They would :eport it to Tc: Cooke, c: they micht 9 have repceted it to Oen Sibbald.
10 C
Okay. Did you ever hea: -- what is the other 11 centleman': name?
12 1
Don Sibbald.
13 Oid you ever hear Tec 00cke c: Ocn Eithald make i
1 14 any cc: ment about the result that 3echtel chtained from 15 :tking the berings?
16 A
yms.
17 0
" hat cec:en t was tha.?
18 A
That they were adequate.
Con Ei:taid tcld ne that 19 they were adequa te, the result.2 were adequate.
I
- =
20 Did he'ex;: ass to you any :isgivin;s c: dif fi cult y.
21 ateut Sechtel's conclusion?
22 A
No, not that : can recall.
23 q
Mr. u :n, I vent to ask a quest.on alcut 0:iterien r
24 16 of 10 CFE, Part 50, Appendix 3, and ! vsnt te -- can !
25 have the book, ;iease? : vant to ask you this question 2
ALDEPSCN REPCRTING COMPANY, INO 400 VIPGINTA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON 0.C. 20C:4
' 20 2) 5 54 234 5
i r-i,
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j 1
withcut your. reading it, and then, depending en whether you
[
2 can 0: canac t answer the questica, !.will hand it tc yeu; 3
but I want to test your knoviet;e.
4' Is one of.the pur;cses of Criteria
- 6 the s
5 ; oventice of repetiticn of nonconf::mances?
g-
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.sse,.
e 7 foundation.
s-L 8
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- TNIss:
I don't knov vhat 16 is.
i t
.i 9
SY
".F.
PATCN: (2esur.ing) 10 C
Is going to cuggest tc you what it is and you an 4
11 take an a.a.: der.
12 A
Are you going sc give me the title?
s 13 C
Yes, ! a.m.
j 14 A
?.ay.
4 15 e
Oc::ective Actien.
Nov : vill repeat the question.
4 16
- s one of the pur;cr+s when I-finish with thic, i
17 vill ist ycu read it if you vant tc.
Is one cf the 4 -
18 pu:;oses of Criterion 16 the ;:evention of repetition of 19 nonconformances?
i 20 A
Yes.
21 C
?.r. Horn, ! want te hand you N*.C ep:sition t'
Z2-Exhibit Number 1 and direct y:ur. attention tc the tetton of i -
23 pa;e 2.
It goes: continuous te pa;e 3 vhere the:e is'a-list
~
t a
i l
24 of five items. These are listed unde: paragraph ' captioned i
4 25 "Su: mary Of.Ficts."
.va r t te ask ycu t: :ead these, and.
.i.
i i
4 ALCER$QN Rge;migNG c;ypAyy, iN;,
i 1
400 VtmGINIA AVE. 5.W, WASHINGTCN. c.C. 20024 t202) 554 2345 1
.49 1
whan you get th:Ough ! vant t0 ask you whether you agree 2 with those five state:ents.
3 A
Could you re; eat the question?
4
(;,e perding question was read by the re;orter.1 5
- Y yp
- ATCN
- ( 3.s sumin g )
6 X:. M :n, de you :ecall sy question?
7 A
Yes.
I de not aq:ee with the s;ecific vc: din; of 8
these.
9 0
'Jould you tske them one by one and tell us, if you 10 don't agree, hev y0u don't aq ee?
11 A
All right.
Tu=ter one --
12 7
If you don't
.t i n d, would you rea1 nunber 3r.e?
13 A
"A lack of cont:01 ind supervisic.- ti ;1ent fil; 14 activities centributed te inacequate :: ; action cf 15 foundation material."
16 The only disa; e+:ent ! hav+ with thst is that it 17 is a ;cssible contributor to tha t ; stlem.
18 All richt,. sir. Could ! see that dccument, ;1 esse?
19 let ssk :e shout your answer.
You are indicating 20 -- does your sesver indi:ste that it is ;cssitie that i lack 1*
Of centrol of supervision of plant fill activities did not 2 cor. tribute to inadequite Ocepaction of foundation material?
23
%R. ZAXAEINs Could you read that back, ;1 esse?
24
-(The pendinq question Vas. read by the re;crter.)
25 TF.I WITNESS:
Was that adequate er inadequate?
ALDERSON Pt*0RTING COMP ANY. INC.
400 VIRG;N!A AVE. S.W., W45HINGTON. D.O. 20024 1:3:!!$4 2346 t
e.- es
+
1 E! MP. FAOCN4 ( ?e sunin g )'
2 C
! ?.. FATCNs The only verd that ! intend to change 3 is "nct."
.e t me try to explain my Juestion.
I 4-This statement indicates that a lack of contrel I
5 and supervision Of plant fill activities cen.ributad to the 4
6 inadequate :::; action of foundation material, and 1 nink 7 you indicated you veuld agree that it was only ;cesible tha t
[~
8 it centributed.
9 A
Yes.
10 C
Starting with your sta te:en;.that you can only 7 11 to the ;cint Of saying it va: ;ossihie that it centritsted t
1 12 to inadequa te compaction of founda tion naterial, 7.y questien 13 te you is'is it ;ossible in yo:: nind that a inck of cent:ci 14 and supervision Of. plant fill activities did net centribute i
4 15 to *nadequate 00 ; action of fcundation material?
i.
16 A
Yes, it is ;cssible.
1 17 0
Okay, thank you.
18 A
N :,.be: two. "Cc rective action regarding d
19 nonconf ormances rela ted te ;1 ant fill va c insuf ficient 0; i
j.
20 inadequate, as evidenced by the repeated deviatisns f:0m the j
l 21 specification.:equirements."
22
- agree with that sta temen t.
23 0
3kay, sir.
i i
24 8
'.'lu m b e r t h r ee.
"Certain fesign' basis and
- 25. construction ' rpecifica tions related to foundation type, I
l ALDERSON' REPORTING tOMP ANY, INO, 400 VIPGIN!A AVE,5.W., WASH NGTON. D.t. 200:4:200'!$4 :345
-t.
23' 1
material p:c;erties and con; action require:4nts were not 2 fci;cved.~
3
- agree to that.
4 Numher fcur.
"There was a isek e f clear direction
.5 and su;;c t between the cont:setors, engineerin; cffice and 6 construction site e s veil as within the con.rac:0:'s 7 en;inee:in; office."
8
- a;:ee tc that.
9
': u.*
- e : five.
"Th e FS AF centains inconsist ent,
10 ince::ect and unse;;orted statements with res;ve: to 1*
foundation y;e, soi; ;;c;erties and settlement vslues."
12
- acree tc that.
13 0
All :Lcht, sir.
Thank you.
14 Ourinc the period of time when plant fill 15 c;< rstiens we re being c e n d.u c te d in the ncn-dike a rea, was it 16 vithin the sce;e of your responsibility -- and ! a.: linitinc 17 the question te scils -- was it within the sce;e of yeu:
18 responsibility to sssess the qualificatiens of !schtel 19 ;cality control persennel?-
20 A
Yes.
21 C
Old you conside: any of the: unqualified?
~
22 A
Yes.
23 0
'4hc did you consider to be unqualified?
24 A
- don't recali tae name of the ventlenan.
25 0
Vas it just one ;entle an?
i ALD(PSCN REPCMTING COVPANY. INC.
400 VIRGIN!A AVI. S.W., WASHINGTON. 3.C *0024.2021554 2345
]
i i
.s 1
A Yes.
!t was one occurrence en soils. Cne nicht 2 whan ! vas inspecting, and the ;isce ent cf the seil, !
3 believe they were placin; clay on top of structural backfill 4
area.
That requires the sand.
And I began questioning hi:
5 on the requireeents, and it appeared to =e that he was not 6
familia: vith that, with the soils. ! folleved u; on it the 7 nex
= c ::.in g.
8 C
'4 hen you say you fc11cved u; on it, what did you 9 Lo?
j 1
i 10 A
- contacted his superviser and : told hi.e that we i
i 11 a; eed tha: the nan vould be taken of f scils un til he had 12 received adequate train:.n; in *.he soils area.
l 13 C
lid that ha;;en?
i 14 A
He vas rencved f:Or the soils, and as is: as !
15 kn:v, he did no: ;c hack to the soils inspection.
J._
16 0
Oksy.
.ie n e :s il y what was it that he was 10ing th e I
17 nicht that you talked sbcu:7 What function was he i
i 13 performing?
l l
19 A
Me was carryinc cut the in spection by 00 cf soil 20 placerant.
i l,
21' O
Oc you ret.emhe: anything in ps ticula r that you 22 thought he should kncv that'he didn't knoV?
23 A
les.
24 0
What was that?
25 A
The requirenent'that st:cetersi backfill material ALCEPSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGIMA AVE. S.W., W ASHINGTON, D.C. 200*4 (20*' 564 2346
i 232 1 'he placed within three feet of a structure.
2 Did ycu ever hear of Management Analysis 3 Torpc:stion?
4 A
Yes.
5 C
Are they now doing any verk for Consumers or 6 Sechtel?
7 A
yes.
w 8
C
'4 h a t sre they doing, generally?
9 A
They run sudits on our CA ;:cgra:.
10 C
- dave they :+ ached any findings?
11 A
I' don't recall.
I am not aware of sny findings.
12
'C Have they co.m;leted their work' 13 A
! am not sure.
14 C
.. :. Horn, I wa n t to shev yce NEC 2eposition 15 Exhibit Number 1, page 12.
At the bet:ce of the page there-16 is a paragraph that has, among other verds in it, a 17 reference to a herd of-mules, and : vant to ask you to read 18 that.
19
- 15. CAXAE!N4 You are referring tc.garag:s;h 20 number 67 21 ME. PATON:
.Yes., pa rag ra ph nuc h e: 6.
22 9..
?ATON: (Resuming) 23 C
Have you finished reading that?
24 A
Yes.
-25 C
Do you unde: stand the paragraph?
ALDERSON AfPORf!NG OcMPANY. INC.
400 VIPGINIA AVE. S.W.. WA5MINGTON. D.C. 200:4 (2021 $54 2348
l 234 1
A-Yes.
2 O
Do you agree -- ! a: going tc take a part of this 3 out and ask if you agree with it. !a
-just changing it to 4 sake it a question.
l I'
5 Do you agree, f c a technical point of *tiev, with L
6 this statement's If the compaction could be achieved with a l
7 herd of mules valking over the fill, it would be acceptable
'A 8 as icnq as it got the c5 percent compaction -- within the 9 confines of the 'ifland case and all that you know about it 10 and the requirements for compaction at tidiand?
11
'R.
- AMAEIN4
- vill ebject to the forn of th e 12 question in that you say f:ce a technical point of view or a I
13 gectechnical'pcint of view or f rom his responsibilities at 14 QA.
15
?Y ME. PATCN: (Resuming) 16 0
kithin yeu: own expertise, which ! assu.e you are l
17 f amilia: with.
18
?R. "AMARINs The same objection as to forn.
19 EY MR. PATON: (Resuming) 20 I will ask you a different question.
i 21 Oo you have an opinion as te whether c not you 22 have the competence to state whether the procedure suggested 23 by this paragraph is sound engineering practice?
24 A
Yes.
25 0
s the p,:ccedure suggested by this pt:acraph sound ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20C24 (202) $$4 2346
1 235 1
engineering practice?
2 A
yo, 3
0 Was there some dsmage to the ri; rap a t the dike 4 sometime within the last year?
5 A
Not that : an aware of.
6 C
Was there any damage or disturbance te the dike 7 within the last two years that you are aware of?
8 A
There were some problems with the dike, and it was 9 within the last two years.
10 C
Do you know a n'/ t h in g about it?
Do you know what 11 happened?
12 A
No.
13 0
Did Canoni bulid the dike a:cund the cooling pond?
14 A
Yes.
15 g
s any of the dike around the cocling ;ond ;
16 iirted?
17 A
- o.
18 0
Do you know whether there is any structure syste 19 or component within the cooiing pond tha t is a Category :
20 structure?
21 A
Yes.
22 0
What is that?
23 A
The discharge lines from the surface water out to 24 the emergency cooline pond.
25 Q
!s it within your technical competence to kncv ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 8202)884 2345 L-
l 1
l 236 1
whether f ailure of the dike could adversely impact those 2 discharge lines?
3 A
.v o.
4 C
Did you have any connection with the construction 5 of the dike within your professional responsibilities?
6 A
Yes.
7 0
'4 h a t was that?
What connection did you have ?
8 A
The part of the dikes were 0 and were later made 9 non-Q.
10 Q
What part of the dike was it?
let me interrupt.
11 By Q, do you mean 0 listed ?
12 A
Yes.
13 C
That means to you subject to Appendix !?
14 A
Yes.
j-15
~4 hat part of the dike was at one tine 0 listed?
I 16 A
The ; art of the northeast dike was C.
All of the 17 no:th plant was Q, and pr.rt of the west pla n t dike was 0.
18 0
Are you referring to the dike'around the cooling 19 pond?
20 A
This is the total, the dike that surrounds the J
21 entire project.
The plant, the power block and the cooling 22 pond.
23 C
Ref erencing the dike that is around the cooling 24 pond only -- do you understand what I mean by that?
25 A
Yes.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMP ANY. INC.
400 VtRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON, O.C. 20024 (2021554-2345
N',,y
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Did you have any professional respon,q u ty with
'\\
2 respect to th e con s t'ruf, r.lon o f th a t d,tke? N.
M '
i v$1fereb $e par,*. of ta,e'tortheast diken 3
A I,am not sy),(9.
I\\
g
- t... l.
x 4 is that wasQwithreseget to the actWg Odefa'ce watyr of s,
uN g
pg, (
g
- w s
s 5 the coolint pond '
'\\;
s y
s
(
s 6
Q Other'thar tijl.t portMnf did you ha e any i
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t 3:
responsibility with pect y the 40 1,truction cf 't,te.,,w$ tke 7
y hopdi,{ p[p.
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c,..
s
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h, 8 around the cooling g
s., ' _'
As N
s s s
y'-li, 9
A No.
' Q, A.
O N
4-q-
g s
'w.
'4ho s97er(155d for 'Consum'ers Fyer'tha i I 10 C
i \\
y _,, '
,g 11 construction of t!'e dN e 4 ound the cooling ponds
'f g
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s 12 A
The question 2As tool general. I du ft k e :{ e -
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t l
.e A,
Canoni did tis;,.. dX.l*l3
+
a s
,! ?
d,,
13 Q
Y ";
t I'
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y,,,
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- R. P A TJ y, If aecoplatedthisstaggofthe JL 22 deposition of P,rnR:;d,315ce Ekerything seems to b'e,' sine
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EX ATIN ATION EY COUNSEL TOR CONSUMERS PO'4ER COMPANY 2
py 33, ZAMARIN:
3 0
In response to one of the questions by Mr. Pa ton 4 with regard to your decision not to stop work in soils 5 piscement, you indicated that you didn't think there would 6 be a high cost impact on continued work, and therefore you 7 didn't stop the work.
8 Can you tell us what you mean by high cost impact?
9 A
The consideration made for that high cost impact 10 would be if work would continue at its present requirements 11 and later determined to be unacceptable, to ao back in and 12 rezcve that material or repair the consequences of that 13 material.
14 0
So you are talking about the cost of going back l
15 and redoing some verk if it is later found that that is 1
16 n ec essa ry, and that is the cost impact ycu reforced to.
17 A
Yes.
Not the cost impact of stopping work at that 18 time.
19 MR. ZAHARINa I also have two exhibits.
One has 20 been marked Consumers Exhibit Number 1 as of today's date, 21 and it is headed "Orai Communications Record dated 22 10/2/PO."
23 (The document referred to was 24 marked Consumers Exhibit 25 Rumber 1 fee identification.)
ALDERSON REPORTING CoMPAliY. INC.
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I would simply like You to,look at that and tell 3 me if that is a record of a tElicc[ that you made.
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4 A
Yes.
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5 0
In that telepbone conversction-between you and %:.
6 Gallagher, L believe it v'as, 'he requested certain inf ormation
~' with regard to' Specification C,210; is that correct?
8 A
Yes.
9 Q
Did he. state wh y he wanted that information?
10 A
To the test of my recollection, it is that this 11 information was missing frco. previous investigations and 12 that they wanted that in f orm a tion.
13 Q
Did he tell you why !.e thought it was misring from 14 previous investigationr?
15 A
The lead-in to that conversation was that one of 16 the inspectors he wa s with had thrown out his informatien.
17 C
Do you recall what advice -- and you can reflect 18 your recollection with Exhibit Number 1 -- that
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19 Gallagher requested of you on October 2, 19807 20 A
There were two requests tha t I ha d te pursue.
One 21 was to identify the persons that ;tepared, checked and 22 approved the Specification C-210 based on the cover sheet to 23 that specification, and my understanding wa s that I-aise 24 identify the oroup that they were affiliated with.
25 3R. 2A%ARIN:
I have here what has been marked ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
1 400 V:RGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTCN. D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345 j
2u0 1
Consumers Exhibit Number 2 f or identification.
2 (The document referred to was 3
marked Consu=ers Exhibit 4
Nu=ber 2 for identification.)
5 BY 3R. ZAMARINs (Resuming) 6 0
Does that contain some or all of the infor:ation 7 that you understand Mr. Gallagher to have requested on 8 October 2, 19807 9
A No.
This information does not include the actual 10 group that they were with.
11 Q
Other than that information, does it contain all 12 the information that you understood Er. Gallagher to have 13 requested?
14 A
Yes.
15 0
Was it your understanding at the time of your 16 telephone conversation with !r. Gallagher on Cetober 2, 1980 17 that this information was requested for the purposes of this 18 hearing with which we are involved or discovery with regard 19 to the hearinc?
20 A
Yes, that was my understanding.
21
- 33. ZAEARIN:
I have no further questions.
22 THE WITNESS:
You forgot number two regnest.
I 23 said there were two items.
24 BY %R. ZAEARIN:
(Resuming) 25 C
What was the other request?
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (2021554-2345
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A The other one was tnst the verifica tion packages 2 from Ann Arbor be sent to the site so that he could come in 3 and review those packages.
4 0
That is what we discussed earlier when you were 5 answering Mr. Paton's questions.
6 3
yes.
7 MR. ZAMARIN:
I have no further questions at this
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8 time.
9 FURTHER EXAMINATION 10 BY COUNSEL FCE THE NUCLEAF REGULATCRY COF.5ISSION 11 SY FR. PATON:
12 C
I want to ask you, Mr. Horn, just one or two 13 questions about Consumers Exhibit Number 1.
Did you prepare 14 this document?
15 A
Yes.
16 0
Is it, to your knowledge, word for word the 17 con ve rsa tion that took place?
18~^
A No.
19 C
The conversation was not tape recorded or copied
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20 in any way.
21 A
No.
22 C
This is just your recollection?
23 A
Yes.
24 ER. PATON:
Okay.
25 Are you through?
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20C24 (202) !54-2345
2d2 1
MR. ZAMARIN4 I have no further questions.
2 MR. PATON:
I'have no further questions.
I want 3 to place a couple of statements on the record.
4 The first statement ! vant to make is that Mr.
5 Zamarin asked me about a week ago, discussed with me the 6 matter of NRC employees requesting information f rom 7 Consumers ampicyees, and requested that NRC employees not 8 ask Consume s employees to prepare information specifically 9 for the purpose of the proceedings that we are now involved 10 in.
By that I mean what is known as the OL/0M proceeding.
11 I did not do anything in response to his request, 12 and we discussed the matter aoain today.
I intend to ask 13 Er. Food to send a notice to NRC employees and ask them to 14 ref rain from asking Consumers employees to prepare 15 information specifically for the purpose of this 16 litigation.
17 I would submit that any such request coming from 18 Mr. Gallagher in the recent past are from Mr. Gallagher's 19 point of view a very, very logical continuation of the 20 practice he has followed for many years, but I intend to ask 21 him to observe Mr. Zamarin's request and other NRC employees 22 to do the same.
23 ER. ZAMARIN:
I will just state that by putting 24 this on the record, we in no way intend to indicate nor do 25 ve suspect that there was anything in Mr. Gallagher's mind l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 20215*4 2345
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that was improper in doing this.
It is just that we are in 2 kind of an unusual situation where we do want the normal 3 review to continue but that as lawyers we have a certain way 4 that things have to go with regard to the hearing.
5 re certainly don't suggest or intend that there 6
was a;/ thing inproper in his motivation.
7 MR. FATONs I want to make another statement for 8 the record.
!t was my intent a t the conclusion of Mr.
9 Horn's deposition to leave his deposition open.
Ey that I 10 meant that in the event, which I now consider to be remote, 11 that the NRC would want to take a further deposition of Mr.
12 Horn, that that would be done.
13 I thought that that was within the scope o'f the 14 understandings between attorneys, and I note that the 15 Consumers attorneys have taken the depositions of three 16 staff witnesses and to this point have left them all open 17 for further depositions, to which I readily agreed.
18 I would also note that--the staff has cooperated to 19 whatever time schedule has been suggested by Consumers.
To 20 my knowledge, there is no specific agreemer.t that Mr. Horn's 21 deposition be left open.
I don 't wish to argue the matter; O
22 I merely wish to make those comments.
If the attorneys 23 cannot reach an agreement, then I suggest that the simplest 24 procedure would be to bring the matter to the Board's 25 attention.
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400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345 c
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1 ME. ZAEAPIN:
Ckay.
let me just clarify one thing i
2 with regard to the scope of the understanding between the 3 a ttorneys.
The reason for adjourning sine die on the 4 depositions thst were started of the NRC personnel was 5 because they were not completed at the time when travel 6 arrangements required that they be adjourned.
7 In none of those was there any indication or B suggestion that the inquiry was complete.
In fact, my 9 recollection is that Er. Eood's was adjourned sine die for 10 the sole purpose of possibly going back through, I believe 11 it was, 50.54(f) and 50.55(e) matters and his acceptance 12 criteria with regard to those.
That was the only purpcse 13 for which that was adjourned sine die.
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14 We completed our interrogation with regard to 15 everything else, I recall, so that one was not left open.
16 It was just'that one matter. And if it were to resume, it 17 would be limited to that one matter because we had alr 4dy 18 completed our own inquiry with regard to other matters aEd 19 had so stated.
o 20 Sinre the reason f or the adjournment of Mr. Horn 's 21 deposition at this time is that you have completed your 22 inquiry as of this time, it will remain our position that 23 the deposition is cempleted and adjourned with further 24-deponents saith not.
25 MR. PATON:
A very brief reply.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202f 554-2345
2 f4 5 1
I suspect the problem vill po away because :
2 suspect th a t if the staff has probable cause to believe that 3 Mr. Horn has some very valuable information in this public 4 interest proc +eding, that the Ecard vill let us take his 5 deposition. If we do not, they will not, so I doc't expect 6 the problems to continue.
7 ME. ZAMARIN4 That is a higher authority than 8 either you or !.
9
( Wh ereupon, at 12440 p.m.,
the de po sition was 10 concluded.)
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24 25 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
1 NUf"7AR REGULATORY COMMISSICN This is to certify'; hat the attached preceedings before the A,
DEPOSITION OF DONALD ELDON HORN in the matter cf: CONSUMERS PO97ER COMPANY Date of Preceecing: October 22, 1980 Docket !t6:b ar:
50-239-OM & 50-330-OM Place of ?rocee<iing: Midland, Michican were held as herein a;;ents, and tha this is the original tranJeri;;
therecf for the file of the Coc=1ssica Marilyn Shockey Official Reporter (Trped) 4 f
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