ML20090K860
| ML20090K860 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Midland |
| Issue date: | 10/23/1980 |
| From: | Keeley G CONSUMERS ENERGY CO. (FORMERLY CONSUMERS POWER CO.) |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML17198A223 | List:
|
| References | |
| CON-BOX-02, CON-BOX-2, FOIA-84-96 OM, NUDOCS 8405240448 | |
| Download: ML20090K860 (87) | |
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.w 2----------------x 3 In the matter of a
rocket Nos. 50-329-0M 50-330-02 4 CONSUMEP.S POWEE COMF ASY s
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Nuclear Pegulatory C0 mission 6
Midland Se rvice Center 1100 South Washington Street 7
Xidland, Xichi;an 8
Thursday, October 23, 1980 9
Deposition of O!!3EET SMITH XIElEY, a witness 10 herein, called for examination by Counsel for the Nuclear 11 Regulatory Commission in the above-entitled matter, pursuan 12 to notice, the 'Jitness beine duly sworn by Marilyn Chockey, 13 a t tha Nuclea r Pegulatory Commission, Yidland Service 14 Ce n t e r, 1100 South ~4ashington Street, "idland, "ichigan, 15 commencing at 5 :15 o ' clock 2.:.,
Thursday, October 23, 19EO, 16 and the proreedings being taken down by stenomack by arilyn v
17 Shockey and transcribed under her direction.
18 APPEARANCIS:
19 On behalf of the Nuclea r Eequlatory Con =issions 20 WIL;!.t.M P ATON, Is:;.
SEA 012Y JONES, Esq.
21 Nuclear Regulatory Commission'
'aryland National Bank Building 22 3ethesda, Maryland 23 24 25 j
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WIS;ESS PAGE
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34 Gilbert Scie. Keeley 3
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- a. a C C ?a s _D a* N 3 e 2 4hereupon,
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I 4 the de;cnent herein, called for examination by Ccunsel for 1
5 the Nuclear Peculatery Commission, having been duly swcrn by 6 the Court ?.e p o r t, was examined, and testified as follows:
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SY ME. PATON:
9 0
~4oul' you state ycur name and business address, 10 please ?
11 A
"y name is Gilbert Smith Keeley.
12 9usiness address is Consumers Power Company, 1945 13 'J e st Parnell Pcad, Jackson, Micnigan.
14 C
tr. Kelley, what is your present position with 15 Consumers Power Cor.;any?
16 A
Zy pr=sent ;cciticn is Froject :'.anager on the 17 Midland Nuclear Plan t.
18 Q
Do you spend most of your time in Jackson, 19 ichis i n ?
20 A
Yes, I do.
21 C
Do you know whether, in the last two years, there 22 has been any damage to the dike around the cooling pond at 23 Midland ?
24 A
Yes, there has been.
25 C
.Can you tell us how that care about ?
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ALCERSCN REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (2001 554-2345
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A It came a.out due to ice damage on one side of the
.2 dike during the vinter, due to vind blowing the ice.
3 C
Does the word wave action have anything to do with 4 that damage, do you know?
5 A
Jave action?
6 C
!s that a word or expression that is familiar to 7 you?
Do you know what that means?
8 A
Wave action, to my knowledge, usually means action 9 by the wind creating waves in a body of water.
10 C
Did that concept have anything to do with the 11 damage that you are discussing?
12 I do not kncv.
Based on my recollection it was a 13 conbination of primarily ice blowing due to being carried by 14 vave action.
15 C
That casage was last vinter, to your recollection?
16 A
- helieve it was last vinter.
Yes.
17 0
Was there any damage to the rip ra;?
18 A
The rip rap was moved around.
If that is your 19 term damage, yes.
20 0
Did it cause -- did you make some repairs?
21 A
No.
The repairs haven't been made yet.
22 C
Do you recall what the velocity of the wind was 23 when the damage was done?
24 A
No, I do not.
25 0
Was-the vind a contributing factor to the da age?
1 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202!554-2345
c 1
A It is my understanding that tha vind was a 2 contributing factor.
3 C
Would you describe the damage?
4 A
I have not inspected the damage, as such.
I 5 understand it is due to some of the ri; rap being moved a 6 bit.
7 C
You say some of the rip rap was moved a bit.
8 Could it have been as much as 200 feet of rip rap?
9 ME. ZA!ARIN:
Before ve go on, can you tell r.e hov 10 this is related in any way?
11 YE. EATON:
It is the dike.
I 12
- 23. 2.t.".APIN:
Doesn't this have to do with the 13 soils problem ?
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14
'f E. PATON:
That is what I am getting at.
The 15 dike, the soils in the dike.
16 XE. 2.1.M A E IN :
Ice blo'ing against the dike 1 17 somehow related to soils?
I just don't see it.
18 MR. PATON:
I would like the record to show that I 19 have started interrogation of Yr. Keeley about some damage 20 to the dike which ! had couched in terms of rip rap.
I have 21 ju'st started my interrogation and I believe Yr. Zamarin is 22 now objecting to the interrogation.
23 If he has any objection I will let his place them 24 on the record.
Eut I think it is not an appropriate 25 objection.
I thinx, it is interfering again with
=y line of ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202)554 2345 m..
6 1 questioning.
I think it is undue interference.
2 I think
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Osmarin interrogated our witnesses at 3 length about the dike and see no possible or appropriate 4 objection to-my interrogation at this point.
5 Mp. ;AMARIN:
That is because I haven't stated 6 it.
I object to that line of questioning because it appears 7 to be clearly outside the purview of any inter;retation or 8 conception of the issues in this hearing which relate to 9 soils.
And you are talking about ice having p o s si b1;-
.used 10 damage to the rip rap on the dike.
That simply has notning 11 vhatsoever to do with soils.
12 I have asked you.to indicate to my how it has to 13 do with soils.
'4 e h a d a discussion off the record and you 14 were no t able to do that.
So I object.
15 If it has something to do with soils, sure, I i
16 ag re e, you a re entitled to ask him about it, but ! haven't 17 seen that yet.
Just because -there is soil in the dike 18 doesn 't mean that you are entitled to inquire about bird 19 droppings on it.
That's all I've got.
20 MR. PATON:
do not recall up until your 21 statement any reference to bird droppings.
22 MR. ZAMARIN:
I meant nevel dro;;ings.
23 MR.'PATON4
%y interrogation had just begun and 24 vill continue and interrogate Cr. Kelley as to any 25 connection between the damage to the dike and/or the rip rap ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON. C.C. 20024 !202)554-2345
7 1and in connection with the soils problem.
i EY MI. PATON:
(2esuming) 3 Q
Yr. Kellay, ! believe my last question to you vas 4 to describe the damage.
Would you do that?
5 YR. IAMAEIN:
3efcre ve go on, ! think you said 6 you vere going to interrogate to establish a connection.
7 ME. PATON:
That is why I am asking hi: questions 8 in that direction.
9 M3. 2AMAEIN:
Until you really have some 10 foundation 11 XF. FATON:
That is where : am going. If you don ' t 12 like that particular question, I can't help it, but that is 13 the direction I'm going.
14 ME. IAMAFIN:
It is not the particular question.
15 %e had the discussion off the record.
Maybe we should have 16 it on.
17 Can you tell =e in what way this tip ra; damage is 18 rela ted to the soils issue in the hearing?
19 MR. PATO5:
I want to ask Mr. Keeley questions in 20 th a t direction.
I am nov';oing to as4 Mr. Keeley questions 21 th'a t his ansvers may or may not connect the damage to the 22 soils problem.
That is exactly where I am going with these 23 questions.
24
!s 1: your statement that I have to first 25 establish with you exactly where I am going so that you can ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. !NC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. O.C. 20024 '202) E54-2345 e
2 1 then permit me, whether or not I should proceed in that 2 direction?
3 MR. IAMARIN:
No, I don't want to knew where you 4 are going.
! want to know where you '. ave been.
- seems 5 that where you have been doesn't have anything te de with 6 soils,' and I want to know if th e y have a c nnecticn.
If se, 7 fine.
That is perfectly lecitimate.
8 MR. PATON:
I would like th e record to show that 9 think h ave just gotten started and I have been interrupted 10 so m any times that I really haven't gotten very far with Mr.
11 Meeley on this subject yet.
12 Eut I would like te proceed to connect.
I'm net 13 saying I can or cannot.
I want te ask Mr. Keeley come 14 questions to see if there is a connection.
15
- have been told there is a connection and I would 16 like to interrocate Mr. Keeley.
I don't think I have to 17 explain to you precisely what ! have been tcld that leads ne 18 to believe that there may be a connection.
19 MR. 2AMA3!N:
You have been told by ?ay Gonzales 20 th at there was a connection between the danage and the soils 21 1n' "idland ?
n 22 MR. PATON:
! understood his statement that way.
23 Ye s.
24 ME. ZAMAE!N:
Go ahead.
"e will find out what Mr.
25 0:nzales has te say about this.
l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W, WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202)554 2345
9
'l 3Y %F. PATCN4
(?esuming) 2 C
."r.
Teeley, would you descrihe the damage?
3 A
As I indicated, I have not ins;ected the damage.
4 It is my understanding that there has been some ri; rap 5 moved around due to the ice and wave action.
6 0
What is the purpose of the rip ra; being where it 7 is ?
8 A
The rip rap was to pro vide protection against ice 9 or wind wave action to the soils in the dike.
10 0
The rip rap is to protect the soils in the dike 11 from what?
12 A
From wind wave action, ice damage, any floatino 13 objects that might he in the pond.
14 0
What I meant.vas, if you had wind or wave action, 15 or ice damage, what would happen to the dike?
16 I will rephrase my question.
What is it 17 protecting it from?
What would happen if it were not 18 protected ?
Answer 2he last question.
What would happen if 19 i t wasn't protected?
20 M3, ZAMA3IN:
Are you asking him f or the specific
~
21 injury to the dike?
22
- 53. PATON:
I am asking him what would happen to 23 the dike if it wasn't protected.
24 YE. ZAMARIN:
He h as told you that.
25
- R. PATON :
No, he hasn't.
ALOER$oN REPORTING 20MPANY, INC.
i 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) $54-2345
10 i
1 v3. ZA.vARIN:
! think you are asking for the 2 specific injury.
3 x3. PATON:
Mr. ;amarin, would you please stop 1
4 interf erin; with my interrogation.
You have interfered 5 constantly.
6 All ! vant to do is to ask the witness.
The
'7 witness does not appear to be having any difficulty, and 8 your constant interruptions are, I think, unduly interfering 9 with my interrogation.
10
- v. 3 ZAMA3:Ns I know you think tha t.
! disagree 11 with you. ! think I am right.
That question has been asked 12 sa d answered.
13 EY M?. PATON:
(Resuming) 14 0
":. Keeley, what was the rip rap designed to 15 prot ect -- strike that.
16
" hat would happen to the dike if it wasn't l'7 prot ected by the rip rap?
18 A
ith wind and wave action, ice, such as that, it 19 would tend to slough off the surface cf the dike.
~
20 0
Slouch off the surface of the dike.
Is that bad?
21 A
Yes, it is bad.
22 0
Why is it bad?
23 A
Because you would lose sone surface volume of the 24 dik e.
,3 0
- am clear on that.
Is that bad?
ALtERSON REPORTING COMr'ANY, INC.
40C VIRGlNIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345
11 1
A Yas.
l 2
C Why is that had?
l 3
A Secause eventually you could end up developing 4 leaks in the dike if you let it progress to a far enough 5 poin t.
das moved around a 6
0
!s the f act that the rip rap 7 hit, in your opinion, an accurate descri; tion of the damage 8 to the rip rap?
9 WR.
ZAXARIN:
I continue to object to this whole 10 line of questioning as being. wholly outside the scope.
You 11 can answer if you ha ve snything to say.
12 THE WITNESS:
Would you repeat the question, 13 please?
14 3Y v.?.
PATON:
(Resuming) 15 C
2e you consider that, what I recall your statement 16 to be, that the rip rap var noved around a bit?
Is that in 17 your opinion an accurate description of the damage to the 18 ri p rap?-
19 A
Essed upon my knowledpe, that is my 20 interpretation.
Yes.
~
21 Q
As.?roject Manager of Midland, is this type of 22 incident and I am talking about the damage to the rip rap 23 in this case -- reported to you?
24 A
Yes.
25 Q-Fov is it reported to you?
ALDERSON REPORTING CCMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINTA AVE, t.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202)554 2345
~2 1
A It is :eported to me usually verbally, and then I 2 receive copies, usually copies of correspandence concerning 3 the problem.
4 0
Was it reported to you verbally in this case?
5 A
To the test of =y knowledge, it was.
6 c
id you also receive a written report?
7 A
I don't remember whether ! received s written 8 report c: not.
9 0
!s the rip rap on the dike ?
10 A
The rip rap is on the slopes of the dike.
Yes.
11 C
In your judgment -- strike tha t.
12 In your judgment, could the function cf the tip 13 ra p be affected by the quality of the soil in the slope of 14 the dike where the rip ra; is?
15 A
It is my epinion that it could not be.
16 C
Within the Consu:ers organization, who would be 17 most concerned witn the damage?
Who would be most directly 18 concerned with the damage to-the rip ra p?
19
%R. IA%ARIN:
I will o bject to the form of the 20 question and the use of directly concerned being vague and 21 a m'bi g u ous.
22 ME. P AT0!:
Can you answer the question?
23 MR. IA%ARIN If he knows what it means, he can.
24 THE WITNESS:
The responsibl*ity of activities in 25 no n -0 lis t areas for these construction activities on-site ALDEMSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. Q,C. 20024 f:C2) 554 2345
i l
13 1 rests with Tom Cooke and the c ganization that reports to 2him.
3 EY
".R.
PATON:
(Eesuming) 4 0
Is there anybody below Tom Cooke in the 5 or;anization that would be concerned with this ;roblem?
6 g3. ZAgA3:N
- object to the form of the 7 question.
You =ay answer if you can.
8 THE WITNESS:
Don Sibbald reports to Tom Cooke and 9 has been the field engineer responsicle for workino with the 10 subrontractor on the dike, so he would be directly involved.
11 SY gR. PATON:
(Essuming) 12 0
Oc you know who ;1sced -- what company placed 13 the. ri; ra;7 14 A
No, I do' not.
15 O
Co you know whether the f act that the dike -- I'm 16 sorry, that the rip rap has been moved arcund a bit has 17 cauced any sloughing off of the surface-of the dike, since 18 it happened last winter?
19 A
Thore have been inspections and, based upon my 20 :ecollection, there has not been any da: age to the stils.
21 C
Do you plan to make any repairs to the ri; rap?
22 A
Yes, we do.
23 C
What will you do?
24 A
!t is my understanding that the areas where the 25 :1p rap has been moved around will be repaired by putting ALDER $0N REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINtA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTAN D.C. 20024 f 202) 554 2345
13 1 larger rip rap in place.
2 0
Have you reached a conclusion that the rip ra; 3 that was pinced there cri;inally was not as large as it 4 should have been?
5 A
Rased upon the results, or what has happened, yes.
6 C
20 you know when you are going to make those 7 :ap31:3?
8 A
It is my understandit; they will be made la te thi s 9 f all.
Those are the plans.
10 0
Why do you wait to P.ak e those repairs?
11 MR. lAMARIN:
Agsin : object.
Lo you think you 12 have established a connection to the soils issue in this i
13 case yet?
We have been at it for 25 minutes and, again, !
14 find it difficult to believe as I sit here that seteone who 15 is purportedly an expert within the NEC staff has indicated 16 a c:nnection between the soils issue in this hearinc snd 17 this rip rap damage.
That. you are either unwilling or j
18 unable to tell us, and you certainly haven't established it.
19
- don 't think, based on tha t, that your motive is 20 app:cpriate in this deposition.
21
- 23. PATON:
Mr. Zamarin has challenged my motive 2 in this deposition.
I don't think that 5:. Zamarin should 23 se t himself up as the judge of my motive and interf ere with 24 s y interrocstion.
25 I think if he believes my interrogation to be l
1 ALDERSON REPcRTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINI A AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON. O.C. 20024 (2021554 2346
15 1 imp cper that he should instruct the witness net te answer 2 the question anf if the staff feels that the question shculd 3 he certified to the Licensing Scard, we can do that.
4 I don't think it a ppropria te that you constantly 5 interf ere.
I will proffer fo: the record what to re seems 6 to be overwhelming clea: as to-the relevance of this issue, 7 even though I see no need to do that.
I will do that.
8 I would again request that you terminate 9 in tef erence with my inter:cGation, but I will p:cffer for 10 th ? record that the witness has stated that the rip rap is 11 there fe: tne purpose of preventing their being a sloughing 12 off of the surf ace of the dike and that if the:e was too 13 much of that there vo u'ld be leaks in the dike.
14 You inter:cca ted the staff witnesses ateut the 15 dike and now you a:e going to a ict of troutie te objection 16 to my inter:ogating the witness about the :i; :ap and th e 17 stability of the dike.
18
%E. ZAXARIN4 This is what ! thought you perha ps 19 thought the connection was and --
20
%9. EA00Na I would say I have not finished my 21 in't e rrog a tio n.
22
%E. IAXA5IN:
You just stated what you think the 23 connection is.
24 ME. PATON:
My next question would be whether the 25 slouching off would consolidate the soil that was not ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGIN!A AVE S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202 $54 2345
15 Iproperly compacted in the dike.
2 MR. ZAMAEIN:
There isn't, in my knowled;e.
And 3 there's been no sloughing off.
4 Let se also make a sta temen t.
You talk about 5 inte rrupting, and there is a difference between simply 6 interrupting an: a lawyer coing his job.
I think I knov 7 what it is for a lawyer to do his job properly, and perhaps 8 you don ' t.
9 ME. PATON I am convinced of the fact that you 10 think you know exactly what you were doing, Mr. Zamarin.
11 You '. ave told us that over and over and over, and I will 12sti;ulate that you think you know what you are doing.
13 M3. ZA AE!Na
- think you have demonstrated that 14 you don't.
15 MR. FATON And vill stipulate that you keep 16 j a b b in g a t me, that you kncv or that I do.
And ! vill 17 stipul?.te that tha t is clear in your mind.
18 MR. ?AMARINs All right.
And ! will continue to 19 ob ject when you ask improper questions.
20 E! 5?. PATON:
(Resuming) 21 O
Mr. Keeley, let =e ask you this question.
22 "culf the slou;hing off of the surface of the dike ZIbe accentuated if the soil in the dike was not properly 24 compacted ?
25 ME.
A5AF:Ns I object to the for: of the 1
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 :202)554 2345
)
17 1 question.
You can answer if you want.
There is an 2 objection to the form of the question.
3 You refer to slou;hing.
I don't think there is 4 any foundation for that.
5 THE WITNESS.
Would you repeat the question, 6 please?
7 M3. ;AMARIN:
Why don't you have her read it bark?
8 (The pending question was read by the reporter.)
9 THE WITNESS ;
We assume that if there was no ri; 10 rap on the dike and if you assume that the soil had not been 11 rompacted, there would be a diff erence in the rate of 12 sicuching of f.
13 3Y gy. PATON:
(Resuming) 14 0
Would this sloughing off be increased?
15 A
Yes.
16 Q
Do you know whether the soil on the dike wa s 17 properly com pacted?
18 A
- is my opinion that it was properly compacted.
19 C
What standard do you use in making that statement?
20 A
Because we have had no evidence of settlement to 21 am'ou nt to anything on the dike.
22 C
You say to amount to anything.
Has there heen any 23 se ttlemen t ?
24 A
There was some indications in one corner, I 25 believe, of settlement.
But that was some time acc and ALDER 50N REPORTING COMPAfJY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTCN. D.C. 200:4 (202)554 2345
19 1 since that tics there has been no evidence of settle ent.
2 Q
Do you know if that indication of settienent was 3 reported to the NEC?
4 A
It vss reported to the NRC.
5 C
Am 7 correct that you stated that the reason that 6 you think it was properly compacted is that there has been 7 on indication since it was constructed that there was any 8 settlement?
Is that accurate?
9 A
That is rorrect.
10 Q
Do you know what standard, if any, was used for 11 coopaction when it was beine built?
12 Yg. ; AM ARIN :
I cbject to the form of the question.
13 THE WITNESS Would you repeat the ques tion, 14 ;1ea se ?
15 (The pending question was read by the re;crter. )
16
- HE "ITNESSs
! ;tess I would have to ass. you what 17 is meant by standard.
18 3Y MR. PATOS:
( 2 a su r.in g )
19 Q
Does the word have any meaning to you?
20 XR. ZAMARIN:
I will object to that as being 21 argumenta tive.
A standard is a flag.
A standard is a 22 banner.
A standard could be a spec.
You asked him about 23 standards before when you indicated settlement.
I don't 24 think that is an appropriate question.
It is argumentative.
25
!?.-PATON:
Could you answer the question?
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VtMGINTA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202)554 234$
i i
I
19 1
XR. ZAZA?IN:
No.
There is no obligation for hi.?
2 to try and ;uess as what you are asking him.
If you have 3 som= thing in mind on your question.
He has indicated he has 4 a problem with the question.
.ephrase it.
If you can't 5 then move on.
6 MR. PATON:
Zr. Zamarin, ! vould again request-7 that if you instruct your witness not to answer the 8 question.
"Je don't need lengthy explanations.
9 MR. ZAMAPIN:
vill put whate ver ! vant on the 10 reco rd.
Let's move on.
11 MF. FATON:
Now you are objecting and interfering 12 with =e again, and then instructing me to move on.
Is that 13 cc::ect?
14
?. 5. IA5AEIN:
Yes, it is.
15 SY M2. PATON:
(Eesuming) 16 0
X:..< e e l e y, what was your title when the dike was 17 being constructed?
18 A
I had tv: titles, or two : obc, when the dike was 19 bein g constructed.
I was Director of incineering Services 20 an d I was Director of Ouality Assursace.
21 C
Can you.tell me what year that vas?
22 A
I was Director of Engineering Services until 23 1973.
Then, in late 1973 -- November, 1973 -- I was made 24 Director of Ouality Assurance until July of 1975.
25 0
Can-you tell ne what years it vac that the dike I
I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
j 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 '202)554 2345 l
20 l
1 was being constructed
' year c: yes:s?
l 1
2-A To the best of my knowled;e, it was ; ior to 1975.
l 3
0-Did it take more than a year?
4 A
Yes.
n 5
0 97 that, you mean it was com;1eted in 1975 or 6 before 19757 I
7 A
- believe it was completed before 1975.
3 0
Would it he accurate to say that a;;roximately 200 1
9 feet of ri; rap was coved around a bit, or disturbed?
4 10 A
I do not know.
l 11 C
'4 h y do you wait until the fall to repair it?
Why 12 didn ' t you repair it right away?
13 1.
~4e have to get a subcont:setor and get the stone j
l 14 available, or the ri; rap.
15 0
Ar cc: rect that you see no 1: mediate danger or 16 problem f rom the fact that the rip :1; has been moved around 17 a bi t ?
i
.i 18 A
That is correct.
19 0
Does the dike around the cooling pond have any
- j 20 saf ety f unction, in your opinion ?
4 l
21 A
No.
22 C
oes that include the portion of the dike
'23 immediately ad:acent to the inner pond?
24 A
.Yes.
25
.C
!s the inner ;ond a Category One structure?
1 1
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON. 3,C. 20C24 (2021554 2345
.-.... ~
21 1
A Could you define what you mean by inner ;cnd?
2 C
Do you kncv what : mean by the thirty-day pond --
3 the emergency pond?
4 A
Yes.
5 C
The energency pond.
Is that a Cate; cry One 6 structure?
7 A
Yos.
That is a Category Cne.
To :e, a structure 8 normally is a building.
9 What would you call it?
A Category Cne what?
10 A
It is a Category Cne system.
11 C
A2 I correct that your opinion is that no 12 malf unction of the dike could sf fect that Category One 13 syst em ?
1 14 A
That is correct.
10 0
Zr. Keeley, de you know the location of the 16 service water discha:ce lines in the area of the emergency I'7 po nd ?
18 A
! kncv the relative location.
Yes.
19 C
What is that relative location?
20 A
It is adjacent to the diversion dike.
It runs out 21 on each side of the emergency cooling ;ond and on the nceth 22 side dike for the othe: lina.
23 C
So there is one of these lines on both sides of 24 tha emergency pend?
25 A
Yes.
ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WA$mNGTON. D.C. 20024 i2021 $$4 2346
22 1
'Q s it your opinion that no malfunction or failing
'2 of the dike could affect the service water discharge lines?
3 A
That is my opinion.
Yes.
4 (A brief recess was taken.)
5 rf w.P. IATON:
( Ec-s umin g )
E g
w:. Keeley, do you know of any studies on the 7 consequences of cooling pond dike failures?
8 A
I'm not aware of any.
No.
9 0
Is there rip rap around the en tire cocling pond 10 dike ?
11 A
Yes.
12 q
is it the same a: cunt of ri; ra; all around the 13 dike ?
C: does it vary in places?
14 A
I do not know.
15 C
Does the expression 1974 show cause ; oceeding 16 mean anything to you?
17 A
Yes.
18 0
Did you testify at that proceeding?
19 A
Yes.
20 Did you read the decision of the Licensing Soard 21 which resulted f rom that decision?
22 A
Yes, I did.
23 0
Did the licensing Board quote you in their 24 decision?
25 A
This : don't remember.
ALDERSCN REPORTING COMPANY, tNC.
400 vtRGINIA AVE. $,W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 :202:554 2345
22 1
C Can you tell re the substance of your testimony at i
2 that proceeding?
3 A
.Could you define what you mean by substance?
4-C Yes, sir.
5 What subject -- I will strike that question and 6 ask you a dif f erent question.
t 7
2 hat subject did you address in your testimony?
8 A
The subject was quality assurance, includinq the 9 Consumers ?over Company quality assurance program.
10 0
What did you say about the quality assurance 11 program?
12 13.
AhAEIN:
I will object to the form cf the 13 question.
14
- 3. FATCF:
All ri;ht.
15 Can you summarize your testimony?
16 THE WITNESS:
I believe a su mary would be to the 17 ef f ect that we, Consumers Pcver Company, had reor;anized and 18 built up a quality assurance group that had more manpower 19 than previously and had written up policies and procedures -. - ----.
20 to implement that quality assurance program.
And that the 21 ma'nagement was bein; directly involved in the program and 22 keeping up-dated on the program itself, including activities i
23 in problem areas.
24 BY P.?..
PATON:
(Resuming) 25 0
Are ycc aware of the fact that Consumers Power has i
ALDERSON REPORT 1NG COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. C.O. 20024 (202)554 2345
2c 1 recently reorcanized its quality assurance organiza tion ?
2 A
C:uld you define the term recently?
3 0
Within t".e last two or three months?
4 A
Yes.
5 C
Do you know whether, in that reorg aniza tion,
6 Consumers is taking the position that they now have more 7 manpower in its quality assurance organization?
8 MR. ZAMARIN:
I chject to the form of the question.
9 THE WITNESS:
I don't know whether Consumers is 10 taking ths.t ;osition.
It is my understanding that there is 11 more manpower directly under Consumers' control.
12 EY %E. PATCN (Eesuming) 13 0
Do you know whether the claims that e. e teing made 14 by Consumers with respect to its newly reorganized quality 15 assurance organinstion are very similar to the statements 16 that you =ade when ycu ref erenced your summa rized testimony 17 in the 19 7h show cause proceeding?
18 wp. ;A%ABIN:
I will object to the form of the 19 question when you ask him about claims.
l 20 THE '.'ITNESS :
I do not know what you mean by l
21 c1 aims.
ZZ 3Y MR. PATON:
(Resuming) l l
ZI C
Do you know what it is hoped vill be achieved by l
24 the new quality assurance organization?
25 A
Cne thin; I im svare of it is to achieve -- or two ALDERSON RE*CRTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (2021554 2345
25 1 things -- are th'e direct control and supervision of all 2 quality assurance on the det and to the prevention of 4
3 overlap between separate organizations.
4 0
Is the new quality assurance organization going to 5 have more man;over?
6 A
It is coing to have more manpower reporting and 7 under the direction of Consumers Power Company.
8 0
Will it have new policies and procedures?
9 A
New policies and procedures vill have to be 10 written and have been written, or are in the ; ocess of 11 being written to cover this.
Yes.
12 C
Will top managemen t a t Consumers Power be more j
13 closely involved with quality assurance activities than they 14 were prior to the reorganization?
15 A
I do not believe so.
16 Will there be any difference under the new 17 reorganization with regard to the participation of top 18 management of Consumers Power?
19 A
Not that I am aware of..
20 Q
You are aware of the probler. wi th respect to soils 21 at the diesel cenerator building?
4 22 A
Yes, I am.
23 C
And are there problems with reils at other areas 24 of the power block ?
25 A
Yes.
There is.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, int.
l-400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W. WASHINGTON. O.t. 20024 (20:1554 M
25 1
C De those problems, in ycur opinion, result from 2 improper implementaton of quality assurance procedures?
3 A
I'm not sure what you mean by quality assurance 4 procedures.
That is a rather broad term.
5 0
Did you have a quality assurance progra:
6 applicable to the placement of those soils?
7 A
Yes.
8 Q
So you had a quality assurance ;rogram a;;11 cable 9 to the placement of the soils?
10 A
Yes.
11 C
Under tha t prog ra m, were there certain procedures 12 that were to be f ollowed to assure that the soils were 13 properly placed?
14 A
Yas.
15 C
Were those procedures always followed?
16 A
No.
Not in its entirety.
Not in their en tiret y.
l 17 C
Oid the quality assurance program reveal that l
18 errors were made in the testing and placemen t of soils?
19 MR. IAMARIN:
May I have that question read bark 20 plea se ?
^
21 (The pending question was read by the reporter.)
22 13.
A.tARIN:
I object to the form of the 23 quas tion.
The reason I am objecting is that placement -- !
24 don't know whether you are talking about where it was placed 25 or whether it was rompacted perperly, or what.
It is on ALDERSON RE*ORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.O. 20024 1202)554 2345
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g Jould you agree vith'the A x;cu sion filling g
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Tf p}+,'it'is'noi enly. filling'-
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,C Fil'1 A'y:5 and ccop(ac^ tion G'f the' soils.
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y 13 the s;olls 1.4'.the pow % }iock area ?
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a 15 4
Yhat kind s
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hat were w,yc., - -
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n -
Ctn'you"tell me ene o,f the.ty%.e more signif'icant y
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i 21 areas tha't,yqa recall?
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22 A
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?s.g,m 23 testing.
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'4 hat we.re t h.*,- e, r :J:s ih t es tin g t h a t. were made?
m, y,
A ;w,n, yt red Wo%.,.-, h, )! ' n mn,, cory, it 25 A
s si wa s,i.o t using th e b,*9
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28 1 proper Proctor Cu:Ves.
2 C
Whose error vis that?
3 A
Th a t w a s L*. S. Testing people during th e testing.
4 0
Would proper implementation of you: OA progra 5 have detected those errors?
6 A
- find that question difficult to answer hecause 7 the Consumers' OA progra: is to condue: surveillance and 8 audits.
It is not to do the hands-on testing itself.
9 0
! realize that.
'y question is whether proper 10 implemen tation of Con sum ers ' OA program would have revealed 11 that errors in testing had been made?
12 A
Yes, I believe it would have.
13 0
Do you know why ycur OA program did not reveal 14 those errors?
15 A
No, I do not.
16 When did filling and compaction of the soils 17 in wha t year did filling and co:spaction of the soils begin?
18 A
1975.
19 0
What was your title at that time?
20 A
Profeet Manaser.
21 O
In 1975 how aany people on the site spend 100 22 percen t of their time on OA or QC work for Concumers Power?
23 MR. ZAMARIN:
Do you mean employed by Consumers?
24 "R.
PATON:
Yes.
25
- HE W!! NESS
I believe at that time the:e were ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. O.C. 20024 (2C2) $$4 2345
7.
e, !,,'
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1 ap v3, r ; A-Mii (Resuming) 4 i
.a
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~3 3 hat vas, Ehe 'titiv of,,the person who was the top y,,;. -,(.
r, 4 of that gyoup ef-five or,six in responsibility?
.e t
s 5
,_A
. Jerry Cg3 >-rier. '
s
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- s..
~
6
.C
'A.,. ~ ' f e' err e ct that you 'wers Director of Ocality t
y-y
' Assurance ~.uniil dul'y of 1975?
.)
8 A
Thit is, cor, rect.
r s'
9 0
Yod havestestified that proper 1 plementation of
,s g -,.,,, -
10 your 0) pro;ra vculd have revealed the inad equacies of the st 11 tests and t h a t.t h a, t led to the soils probier that new exists 12 a t the sito.
Is that an accurate statement?
13 MR. 2A,9APIN. I will object to the j
14 ch ar acte ri=a tion.'. One, ! don't think anyone has talked
'Ir 15 abou t inadequacies of the tests.
There were errors in 16 testing we were talking about.
17 MB. PATCN:
I ag ree.
18 3Y M3, PA;0N:
(Resuming) 19 0
5.r. Keeley, you testified that there were-errors 20 in t esting the soils.
21
~
A Yes.
22 0
You testified that proper implementation of your 23 own OA program would have detected.these errors.
Is that 24 rig $. t ?
25 A
Yes.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INO.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. 0.0. 20C24 (2C2) 554-2345
30 1
(
! asked you why 1.5;1e entation of your ;A program 2 did not d etect these errors.
Am I correct that you said you 3 did not know?
4 A
That is correct.
5 0
Does that indica te to you any breakdown in 6 implementation of your Q A program?
7 A
You asked me if I knew.
I said no because I was 8 not responsible for CA during this period, se I can't answer 9 the question.
10 C
You vare Director of Ouality Assurance until July 11 o f 197 5 ?
12 A
That is correct.
13 Q
And then your title became Project Manager?
14 A
That is correct.
15 Did you ever, at any ti=e, determine why you OA 16 program did not detect the errors in testing tne soils?
17 M3.
A.TARIN:
By you you are referring to Gil 18 Keeley as opposed to --
19
".3.
PATON:
Did you?
Did you ever personally?
20 Did you, Yr. Keeeley?
21 THE WITNESS:
No, I did not.
(Resuming) 23 0
Did Consumers Power ever?
24 A
Yes, I believe they did'.
25 Q
" hat did they determine?
s ALDERSON REPORTING COM#ANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON.' D.C. 200:4 (2C*'!!4 2345
31 1
A As I testified before, that was discusse'd with the 2 staff in the r.eeting in July.
It was provided to them in 3 the detailed document issued as 50.55(e).
4 0
But that doesn't tell me.
You are tellin; me that 5 there is an answer that exists on a piece of ;a;Er 6 somewhere.
Oo you know th e reason that was determined by 7 Consu=ers Pover ?
8 A
I cannot recall it without going to the document.
9 No.
10 You don't recall, for example, whether it related 11 to any breakdown in the CA program?
12 A
I don't understand the relationship of that 13 question to the one tha t you previously asked.
14 0
I asked you why I will go back a:M do the whole 15 thin g again.
16 You said there were errors in testing the soils.
17 You said that proper implementation of your ;A program would 18 have detected those errors.
19 Nov : am-asking'you, do you have any conclusion as 20 to whether that represents any kind of a breakdown in :he OA 21 ; dog ram ?
22 MR. 2AMAR!N:
I think you asked that.
And I think 23 he answered that.
24 THE WITNESS:
I believe I already answered a 25 diff erent type question that there was a p chlem in the CA I
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VtRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 f 2021554-2345
32 1 pr o g ra m.
That it should have found that problem, in my 2 opinion.
3 BY HP. PATON:
(Resuming) 4 0
You say there was a problem ia the ;A program.
5 'Ja s tha t th e only problem in the OA program with respect to 6 soils?
7 3y, AXARIN:
I object to the form of tne 8 question.
You can answer it.
9 THE WITNESSs I can't answer that because I wasn't 10 in volved in the details of evaluating the CA program on 11 soils.
12 3Y MR. PATON:
(Resuming) 13 0
Er. Keeley, you are the Director of Quality 14 Assurance on the site until 1975 and you then became the 15 Project Manager.
You. remained on the site 100 percent of 16 your time at th a t time -- during 1975?
17 A
I've never been on the site 100 percent of my time.
18 0
For the last half of --1975, when you were the 19 Project Manager, how much of your normal working hours were 20 spen t on the working site?
What percentage of your working 21 ho'urs were spent on the site?
l.
22 A
20 percent.
23 0
In subsequent years, since 1975 until now, 24 approxicately what. percent of your time is spent on the site?-
25 A
Approximately 15 percent.
l ALOERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VtRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. 3.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
33 1
O Your statement is that there was a nroblem with 2 the QA program with respect to testing soils.
Is that 3 accurate?
4 A
That is accurate, and it is based upon my 5 knowledce of what was discussed with the staff and presented 6 in the 50.55(e) report.
7 C
Eut is it accurate that you do not know of any 8 other problems in the CA program exce;t the one we have just 9 been discussing, since July of 19757 i
10 A
I don't know what you mean by problems in the QA 11 prog ram.
12 C
You used the word, sir.
You said there was a 13 problem in the C A program.
14 A
3ut you only addressed that to soils.
Now you l
15'have opened it up to problems in the OA program.
16 C
!:u said there was a problem with the C; program d
I'7 w i t h respect to soils.
What was that problem?
18 A
I testified before that I felt the problem was in 19 the testing area and other problems in the ;A program with 20 respect to soils had been discussed with the staff and 21 pr'ovided to them in the 50.55(e) report.
22 C
I am asking your knowledge as to what those other 23 problems were.
24
- 53. IAMARIN:
That has been ask ed and answered.
'25 He testified he doesn't recall.
He can't recall without
~
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINtA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. 0.C. 20024 f 2021554-2345
i l
3u 1 going te the 50.55(e) report.
2 M?. PETON:
Okay.
Is that your ansver?
3 THE gI;grss:
Yes.
4 SY ME. PATON:
(Eesuming) 5 0
Does that answer apply to a period in time, July, 6 1975 threugh the preser.: time?
l 7
.t R. IAMA?.IN:
I will object to the for cf the 8 question.
It is so vague.
9 ME. P A T0!' :
He gave me an answer.
I asked him 10 does that apply to the July,
'75, to the present.
Il YR. ZA!ARIN:
Does what apply?
That he can't 12 recall?
13 ME. PATON:
Yes, that he can't recall any other 14 problems with the OA prcoram that he dces not ;ersonally 15 remember.
(
16 IHI 4ITNESS:
Again, I would have te a sk you what
{
17 is m ean t by other p roblems with the CA program.
18 EY ME. PATON:
(Resu=ing) 19 0
Mr. Keeley, I thought you just said te me a minute 20 ago that you didn't remember any other problems with the QA l
21 prog ra m.
22 A
I said I did not remember any other CA problems 23 with respect to the soils.
24 0
Right.
I will limit this to soils.
25 I am asking ycu, do you remember any c her OA ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINTA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
35 i problems with respect to soils, with the exception of the 2 one you mentioned about testing, since July 1975, of your 3 own recollertion?
4 EE. ZAMARIN:
Objection as to form.
You may i
5 answer it.
~
6 THE WITNESS:
I do not remember any offhand.
No.
7 BY ME. PATON:
(Resuming) 8 0
Mr. h'eeley, are you an officer of Consumers Power 9 Company?
10 A
No.
11 Q
Do you spend all of your no rmal working hours on 12 the Midland Plant on the Midland Pla nt ?
And by that I 13 mean are you assigned f ull-time to the Midland project?
14 A
Yes.
15 Q
Are there other people superior to you in the 16 Consumers Power Company that spend all of their time on the 17 Midland project?
And by that I mean that they are assigned 18 f ull-time to the Midland project?
19 MR. ZAMARIN:
By superior to him, do you mean 20 above him in the corporate hierarchy?
21 THE WITNESS:
No.
22 3Y M3. PATON:
(Besuming) 23 0
Did you testify that the 50.55(e) report discussed 24 other problems with CA in the soils area?
25 MS. ZAMARIN:
I object.
If he did, it was asked 4
ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
i 400 VfRCtNIA AVE. S.W.. WASHINGTON. o.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
36 1and answered.
2 M P.. PATO5:
I can't argue with that.
3 THE WITNESS:
I believe I testified that the 4 50.55(e) report addressed C A problems with respect to soils.
5 3!.52. PATON:
(Eesuming) 6 0
The 50.55(e) report addrecsed OA problems.
Did I
7 you ever read that 50.55(e) report?
l 8
A Yes.
l 9
?
Ap p r o xim a tely how long ago?
l 10 A
I read it when it was issued and I don't remember 11 the date when it was issued.
12 Q
Did ycu read it more than once?
13 A
Yes.
14 g
Iid you read it more than twice?
15 A
I don't believe so.
16 0
Co you know who prepared it?
17 A
It was prepared by Consumers' CA.
If you are 18 talking about the 50.55(e) report, that had to do with the 19 CA program problems.
20 C
Yes, sir.
21
~
Have you heard any dollar figures mentioned by 22 anybody in Consumers -- that works for Consumers Power, that 23 vorks for the 5echtel Corporation, as to the cost to remedy 24 the soils problem a t the F.idland site?
25 A
Yes.
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 vtRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
37 1
C What is that figure, or what ::: those figures?
2 A
I don't remember the exact figures that were 3 provided in answer to question 22 in part 50.54(f) answers.
4 Q
Do you remember the approximate figures?
5 A
I believe it was around $15 million -- something 6 like that.
7 0
What is your reccliection as to that $15 million?
8 Did that address the total cost to remedy the soils problem 9 at "idland?
10 A
No, tha t $15 million was for the cost to remedy 11what I would say the hardwood type fix.
That does not 12 include any type of schedule delays, effects or cost of 13 m o n e y.
14 Q
Do you have any estimate as to whether the soils 15 problem a t Midland will cause any delay in construction 16 completion?
17 A
Yes.
I have an opinion.
18 0
What is that opinion?
19 A
That opinion is that if we do not resolve the 20 fixes and start doing th e wo rk in 19 81 i t could affect the 21 sc'heduled completion da te on the plant.
22 C
Affect it in what way?
23 A
It could become a critical path item.
24 C
Do you know do you have an opinion as to 25 wh ether or not the soils issue will be resolved by 1981?
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345
32 9'
1 MR. ZAMARIN:
I think he said resolve the fixes.
2 You asked a different question.
3 MR. PATON:
I don't mean to change
..le question.
4 I will change that.
5 Do you hsve an opinion as to whether or not you 6 vill able to resolve the fixes by 1961?
7 THE WITNESS:
No.
8 EY MR. PATON:
(Resuminc) 9 0
You don't have an opinion.
Is that correct?
10 A
That is correct.
11 Q
In your opinion, is the staff's review of this 12 issue lopactinc your resolution of the issue s?
13 A
Yes.
14 0
Does Consumers Power have, to your recollection, 15 any figure that you used generally to it.dicate the cost of 16 dela y of construction.
For example, 7100,000 a day or any 17 figure like that?
18 A
Yes.
Consumers has a figure.
19 0
Can you tell me what that figure is?
20 A
I do not remember the figure.
21 Q
Mr. Keeley, do you know whether or not Mr. Horn 22 has any backloc of unresolved matters within hir is :9 sponsibili ty ?
24 -
A I don't '<nov what you mean by unresolved matters.
25 0
Do you know what I'mean by non-conformances?
ALOERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
1 1
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON. O.C. 20024 (202)554 2345
39 1
A Yes.
2 0
20 you know what I mean by unresolved NFC itees?
3 A
Yes.
4
,C Do you know what I mean by NEC non-compliances?
5 A
Yes.
6 0
Is there a difference between those las two items 7 that I read?
Or are they the same thing?
8 A
I would like to have those last two items repeated.
9 C
The last two were, number one, unresolved NEC 10 it em s, and, number two, NRC non-compliances.
In your 11 opinion.
12 A
In my view, an unresolved item with the '?C is 12 something that during their inspection they feel is a I
l 14 potential inf raction or something such as that which they 15 need more information on before they make that decision.
16 C
I might correct it.
That item, for exam;1e, might l
17 no t turn out to be a non-compliance?
18 A
That is correct.
19 0
Then I understand your answer to be that there is 20 a diff erence between the last two items, and I will read 21 th'e m again if you like.
22 A
No, there is a difference, in my mind.
Yes.
23 Q
Are these items ' that are under Mr. Horn 's 24 responsibility?
25 MR. CAMARIN:
I chject to the form cf the question.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INO.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. O.C. 20024 (202)554-2345
00 1
THE '4:TNESS.
Do you mean all of these unresolved 2 ite=s?
3 3Y YR. PATON:
(Resuming) 4 C
! mean does Mr. Morn have any responsibilit? with 5 respect to these three ite=s?
6 A
He does, in his area of responsibility.
Yes.
7 0
Do you know what his area of responsibility is?
8 A
To my knowledge, it is principally soils and 9 concrete.
10 Q
Do you know whether he has a backlog in these 11 areas?
12 A
- don't know what you mean by backlog.
13 C
D: you know whether Mr. Horn is now spending any 1-4 of his time within his area of rcsponsibility on 15 non-conf ormances?
16 A
Cne of his principal duties is to conduct a t' di t s,
l'7 surveillance over in spection, to write up non-conformances, 18 and then see that the corrective action is taken and the 19 non-conf ormance is closed out.
~
20 C
Do you know whether he is now spending any of his 21 time on that area of responsibility that you just described?
22 A
As f ar as I know, he is.
Yes.
23 C
Do you know whether he is up to date in that work?
24 A
I do not know.
25 C
- vant to do that for the other two.
For the ALDERSON RE*cRTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202)554 2345
a1 i
l 1 unresolved 520 items, does he spend time on that subject?
2 A
Yes.
3 C
Do you.know whether he is now spending time on 4 that responsibility?
5 A
I assume he is.
6 C
Co you know?
7 A
No.
8 C
Do you know whether he has a backlog of unresolved 9 NRC items, and I'm not trying -- if you have trouble with my 10 wo rd backlog, would you say yes or no for the record?
11 A
Yes, I have trouble with what you mean by backlog.
12 C
Does he spend time on NEC non-compliances?
13 A
! assume he does.
14 C
Do you know whether in fact he does?
15 A
No, : don't.
16 Q
Do you know whether he is now currently spending 17 time on NPC non-comp 1.'
,ces?
18 A
I assume he is.
19 C
Do you know for a fact whether he is or not?
20 A
No, I don't.
21'
~
C Have you ever known whether or not, in fact, what M Mr. Horn is spending his time on.within the last year.
23 MR. ZA%APIN:
Could I have that read back?
24 (The pending question was read by the reporter.)
25 ME. ZAMARIN:
I-object-to the form of the question.
At.DERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINtA AVE. S.W.. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345
42 1
ME. PATON:
Strike the question.
2 gy yp. pATON4
( F e sumi:.g )
3 C
Do you ever communicate directly with
- r. Horn?
4 A
What do you mean by communicate directly?
5 C
Do you ever talk to Mr. Horn?
6 A
Yes.
1 7
C How f requently do you talk to Mr. Horn?
8 A
Very infrequently.
9 0
Oo you know what Mr. Horn does in his professional 10 responsibilities at the Midland site?
11 A
Mr. Horn works for the Consumers quality assurance 12 department under the supervision -- the ex-supervision -- of 13 Mr. Oorley and' performs all the duties that are assigned to 14 him.
15 0
In your rapacity as project manager of the Midland 16 si t e, what kncviedge, in your opinion, should you have ofe 17 Mr. Horn 's activities ?
18 MR
- AMARIN
I object to the form of the questi:.n.
19 THE WITNESS:
Since quality assurance in not ut. der
~
20 my supervision, I think I should have a general knowledge of 21 M. Horn's activities.
22 BY MR. PATON:
(Resuming) 23 0
If Mr. Horn was having any difficulties in cetting 24 his Joh done, is that the type of information you should 25 know ? -
' ALCER$oN REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTOP
- C. 20024 (2021554 2345
u3 1
MR. IANARIN:
I object to the form of the question.
2
- gg WITNESS
I guess I would have to know what 3 pa rt of getting his job done, or what is the definition of 4 getting his job done?
5 3Y ME. PA!ON:
(Resuming) 6 C
If he were having any difficulties in 7 accomplishing his assigned tasks within the area of quality 8 assurance tha t he has, would you be interested in knowing 9 that?
10 33, ZAMARIN:
I object to the form of the 11 question.
Do you mean as Project Manager should he know it?
4 12
?. R. PATON:
I will strike that.
13 3Y MP. PATON:
(Resuming) 14 0
Would you be interested in knoving and --
15 substitute as Project Manager -- should you have that 16 in f o rma tion ?
17 A
As Projert Manager, I as interested in what GA 18 problems there are.
Yes.
But I'm not responsible.for the 19 OA department nor their day-to-da y activities.
20 MR. PATONs Why don't we take five minutes?
21
~
(A brief recess was taken.)
22 SY MR. PATON:
(R+suming) 23 C
Mr. Keeley, I want to read to you -- I am marking 24 ss NEC Deposition Exhibit.M o. 1 (Keeley, October 23, 1980),
25 a 'ro py of Licensing Peard decision 74-71 in the Midland case ALDEPSON REPORTING COMPANY. INO.
400 VIRGIN!A AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 f 202) 554-2345
uu
~1 as dated September 25,'197c.
2 (The document referred to was 3
marked NEC Deposition Exhibit 4
No. 1 for identification.)
5 EY ME. PACCNs (Eesuming) 6' O
Yr. Kaeley, I want to read to you paragraph 75 of 7 that decision.
It is on page 606.
After I read it to you I 8 will show it to you so that you can read it, and then I'll 9 ask a question.
10 Ouote, the attitude toward compliance with 11 Commission rules and regulations was set forth by Gilbert S.
12 yeeley, ;irector of Project Quality Assurance Department 13 Services.
In response to a Board question as to why the 14 future implementation of the Midland quality assurance 15 pro; ram will be better than its implementation -- will be 16 better than its past implementation in terms of 1'7 ef f ectiveness, unquote.
18 And that is followed with a quote -- with a 19 cita tion that the record at transcript u77.
20 Mr. Keeley, let me ask you to read that, please.
21 Fdr now, you can read any other part of it you like, if it r
22 is going to put it into context for you.
23 Oo you remember the substance of your testimony at 24 th a t proceeding?
25 A
I don't ' now wha t you mean by substance?
ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. O.C. 20024 (202)554 2345
45 1
ME. FARNIll.
I also believe you have asked his 2 once.
3 MB. PATCN:
!'m not sure he ever answered.
4 THE 'd!Th?CS:
I did answer.
I gave you a brief 5 outline of what I remember from my testimony.
6 3Y ME. PATON:
(Resuming) 7 Q
This decicion said you told them why future 8 implementation of Midland quality assurance program would be 9 better than past implementation.
Do you agree that you told 10 them that?
11 A
Yes.
12 Q
Do you remember anything about why it would be 13 be tter ?
Issentially why it would be better?
14 A
I believe ! said because I was in charge of the CA 15 prog ram, along with other reasons being that we had 16 proced uralized -- we had set up more aanpower in the 17 organization.
18 ME. FAPNElla I also note that his testimony at 19 th at -hea ring -will certainly speak for itself.
20 YR. PATON:
I now recall that Mr. Keeley did ray 21 t h'a t.
22 SY ME. PATON:
(Resuming) 23 0
Nov, with respect to your present knowledge of the i
24 soils problems at the Midland site, what is your opinion as 25 to how the 2 A implementation in 1970 and 1975 in the soils ALDERSON RE*O9 TING COMP ANY. INC.
400 VIPGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (2C2) 554 2345
m 46 I area -- how did it work out, in your o; inion?
2 M3. FAENELL:
Could I have tha t read back, please?
3 (Th e pending question was read by the reporter.)
4 MR. ?AENELL:
I object to that question.
There is 5no foundation that the soils involved in the soils problem 6 were put down in 1974 and 1975.
i 7
- 33. PA;3Ns Can he answer?
8 THE WITNESS 4 When I was responsible for OA th e 9 soils in the 0 area under the diesel generator building had 10 no t been placed.
11 BY MR. PATON:
(Fesuming) 12 C
Okay, Mr. Keeley.
Yy question strikes me as very 13 simple and straightf orward.
You indicated that there were 14 O A problems in the filling and compaction of the soils.
Is 15 that correct?
116 A
Xnowing what we knov nov there vere CA problems in 17 prim arily th e testing area of the soils.
Yes.
18 0
All I'm asking you is, with respect to your 19 statemen t to th e -Boa rd.
-In the-1974 show cause hearing you 20 told the Board why future implementation of C A vould' be 21 be'tt er than past implementation.
I'm asking you why, in the 22 remaining part of 1974 and 1975, how did tha t work out in 23 the soils area?
To me that is quite straightforward.
24 ME. ?ARNELLa But your question before dealt with 25 the soils and the soils problem area.
I stated, and I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
. 400 V*GINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (2321 554 2345
47 1 believe it is correct, that the soils -- and Mr. Keeley said 2 the soils -- were not put down under the diesel genera tor 3 buildinc in 1974 and
'75.
4 EE. PATON:
! didn't ask him about the diesel 5 generator building.
All right.
When were the soils with 6 which we are having problems -- v. ken was the filling and 7 compaction work done?
8 Tgr WITNESS:
It started the latter part of 1975.
9 SY MR. PATON:
(Eesuming) 10 0
How did the.0A program work out in the soils area 11 vith respect to the filling and compaction of soils that 12 be;an in the be; inning of 1975?
13 M F.. FARNE11:
Are you going from 1975 up until the 14 time up until when?
15 YE. PATON:
1975, 1976 and 1977 16 M3. FARNE1L:
! think if you read his resume you 17 will see he vac not respcnsibla in that area.
18
.Y R.. PATON:
I am asking him.
He is the Project 19 Mana ger.
If he doesn 't know tha t is an - acceptable -answer.
20 THE WITNESS :
It is my opinion that, based upon 21 th'e knowledge that we know now, based on the settlement 22 problems that vern experienced, there were OA problems in 23 the placement and the testing of the soil.
24 3Y 7.R. PATON:
(Resuming)-
25 0
Yr. Keeley, do you agree that you testified at the l
l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
L
' 4c3 V130:N!A AV. S.W., WAS9!NGTO*!. D.C. 20024 (202'554 2245
u8 1 show cause proceeding that f uture implemen ta tion of Midland 2 OA would be better than past implementation?
3 A
I did.
4 Q
Was it?
5 A
Yes, it was.
And, in fact, as a result of the 6 placement and testing problems that occurred and resulted in i
7 the diesel ;enerator buildin; settlement problem we have 8 even a better O A program now than we had in 1974 and 1975, 9 because a psrt of QA is to upgrade your CA program based 10 upon previous experience where you have had problems, in an 11 a ttempt to prevent those problems from occurring in the 12 f utu re.
13 CA is not a static program by any means.
14 0
Mr. Keeley, are you aware of a request from Mr.
15 Gallagher of Fegion III for Consumers to move some 16 inf ormation that relates to Consumers answer to staff 17 question 23 f rom Ann Arbor to the site?
18 A
Yes, : am.
19
- 53. CA%AEIN:
Let me just state that I object to
~
20 this line of questioning as being irrelevant.
But ;o ahead.
21 EY 53. PATON:
(Resuming) 22 C
Have you agreed to move that information to th e U site?
24 A
No, ! have not.'
25 Q
Can you call us why you don 't want to agree'to
~.s.
ALDEMSCN REPORTING OCMPANY, INC.
400 WG6mA AVE. S.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (2021554-2345 i
l L-
49 1 that?
2 A
This is back-up information -- documentation 3 concerning the investigation in order to answer question d 23.
It is my understanding that this consists of 5 approxicately three to four file cabinets of documentation.
6 I do not believe it is good practice to transfer this amount 7 of documentation to the site, since the principal 8 documentation control on tha t is in Ann Arbor.
9 Plus, the people who have been doing the work in 10 closing this answer out on question 23 are primarily 11 engineering people who are located in Ann Arbor, sc that, in 12 my =ind, any questions tha: ?. r. Gallagher might have with 13 respect to the review that is being conducted tha t could 14 close out question 23 would be asked mainly of people who 15 are located in Ann Arbor.
16 It is also based on my experience in conducting 17 audits.
We usually go to the area where the principal 18 source of doru=entation and the personnel involved with that 19 documentation are located.
20 C
Do you know if your reasons for not wanting to 21 transport that =aterial were ever conveyed by anyone to Mr.
22 Gallagher?
23 A
No.
I do not know that.
24
- 13. ZAEARIN:
Could I ask a question?
25 ME. PATON:
Yes.
ALDERSON RENRTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. 9.C. 20024 202)554 2345
SC 1
%3. ZA%ARIN:
Was it ever related to you as to Mr.
2 Gallagher's stated reasonin; for vanting them brought to the 3 site, as opposed to remaining in Ann Arbor f or his review?
4 THE ~4!TFESS:
I saw a telecon record which 5 indicated he f elt he would have trouble filling or getting 6 some kind of paperwork to get in to Ann A rbor.
I am not 7 aware that this should be a problem, because the NRC has 8 been going to Ann Arbor previously and vill continue to 9 conduct audits.
10 ER. ZAEARIN:
Is it your understanding that that 11 paperwork was ref erring to the fact that going to 3echtel 12 would be lik e visiting a vendor and there was certain 13 paperwork he would have to fill out in order to do that?
14 THE V!TNESS:
Yes.
15 X3. ZAMAEIN:
- 4ac there any other reason conveyed 16 to you as t: Why Mr. Gallagher vanted the records brought to 17 the site as opposed to remaining in Ann Arbor, other than 18 wh a t you have just stated?
19 THE WITNESS:
I heard tha t he f elt tha t rest of 20 the people that he would be asking questions of were at the 21 sita.
22
??. ZAMARIN:
'4 hen did you hear that for the first 23 time ?
24 THE ~4ITNESS:
Yesterday.
25 MR. ZAMARIN:
You heard tha t from whom?
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGIN!A AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. C.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
51 1
TEI W!! NESS:
You.
2 MR. ZAMARIN:
- vas relating to something that Mr.
3 Gallagher told me for the first time yesterday.
1 4
3Y ME. PATONs (Eesuming) 5 "r.
Keeley, would you please tell us what your 6 responsibilities are as a Project Manager for the v.idland 7 project?
8 A
My present responsibilities?
9 0
!as, sir.
10 A
As Midland Project Manager, ry present 11 responsibilities include the areas of design, construction, 12 testing of the plant prior to systems coing inte service, 13 and administration of the va rious con tracts Consumers has 14 with Eechtel, E C W, Dow Chemical.
15 0
You said you spend 20 percent of your time -- 15 16 or 2 ) percent of your time -- this wa y.
Hcw much do you 17 spend the balance of your time at Jackson?
10 A
I would estimate I spend ap;roximately 9C percent 19 of the balance of my time in Jackson.
20 0
What is your relationship to the quality assurance 21 ac'tivities at the site?
~
22 A
My relationship to quality assurance activities at 23 the site is not direct reporting relationship or guidance, 24 bu t to be aware of what the quality assurance problems are.
25 0
You used the expression quality assurance ALDERSON REPORTING COMP ANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON. ::.C. 20024 !:02)554-2345
52 i
1 problems.
By that do you mean problems within the quality 2 assurance program or problems detected or revealed by the 3 p ro g ram ?
4 A
Roth.
5 C
Oo you feel that you are aware of the quality 6 assurance problems at the site?
7 A
Yes.
8 C
Are there any quality assurance problems at the 9 site right ncw?
10 A
I guess ! would have to ask what is your 11 definition of problems?
12 C
That is your word, sir.
13 MR. CAMARIN:
It started out as yours.
14 MR. PATON:
I asked him his relationshi; to 15 quality assurance.
I am sure your answer was -- I wrote it 16 down -- to be aware of quality assurance problems.
Do you l'7 k n ow what you.?ean by quality assurance problems?
18 MR. ZAMARIN:
That is an improper question.
19 object to it.
20 MR. RATON:
Does the witness know what he means is 21 an improper question?
22 MR. ZAMARIN:
You bet.
Of course he knows what he 23 r e an s.
That is an improper question.
24 MR. PATON:
Then we will stipulate that he knows 25 wh at he means.
Let me ask him if he knows what he means.
ALDERSON REPORTING OoMPANY. INC.
.I 400 V!RGINIA AVE. S.W. WASHINGTCN o.C. 20024 (202)554-2345 li o
53 1'4 hat do you mean by that, sir?
2 M5. CAMARIN:
By what?
3
%R. PATON:
By what?
We have just been having an 4 exchange here about QA problems.
I don't think this is 5 prod uctive,
?.r. Zararin.
I think this is some kind of a 6 procedure that doesn't lend itself to appropriate discovery.
7 33.
Ax'ARIN:
He asked you what you mean by CA 8 problems in the context of the question that you had.
He 9 cannot tell you whit you mean by that in the context of your 10 question.
That is why he acked you to clarify the question.
11 M3. PATON:
Are you directing him not to answer?
12 XE. ZAHARIN:
I'm not aware of what question is 13 pending right nov.
s 14 MR. PATON:
If you could relax a bit you would be 15 aware of what the questions -- strike that.
16 EY XE. PATON:
(Resuming) 17 Q
Mr. Keeley, I asked you what your relationshi; to 18 quality assurance at the site wa s.
Ac ! correct that your 19 answer was to be aware of quality assurance problems?
20 A
That is correct.
21 O
Do you know what you mean by quality assurance 22 problems?
23 A
Yes.
/
24 MR. ZAMARIN:
That-is an. im proper question.
I 25 object to it.
ALDEPSON REPCRTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRG:NIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345 1
i
54 1
MR. PATON:
First you said he didn't know, then he 2 said he knew.
3 3p, ;AXAEIN:
That's right.
But it is an improper 4 :;u estion.
5 ME. PATON:
What do you mean by quality assurance 6 problems?
7 33, ZA3AR N; hat has been asked and answered.
8 You can go ahead and. answer it again.
9~
THE WITNESS:
Cuality assurance problems can =ean, 10 in my mind, what non-conformances are being written, what 11 prog ramm a ti: type problems there migh t be.
Are tnere any 12 trends developing on non-conformances?
That is my 12 interpretation.
14 3Y %E. PATON:
(?esuming) 15 C
All right, sir.
Are there any quality assurance 16 problens of that nature at the site a t the present time?
17 A
Yas.
18 Q
Could you tell us what they are?
19 A
No, I cannot.
I do not know what all of the 20 non-conf orma nces a're, for instance, because they are listed 21 on' non-conf ormance reports.
22 C
Do you know how many non-conformances there are 23 no w that are not resolved?
24 A
! vould have to ask what you mean by resolved?
25 0
All ri;h t.
I will strike-that.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINTA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 202)554-2345
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Do yo u 'r n'o v h e v many ng:-confo rmances 'have been f
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A No, I do nCt.
T i
4 Q
Do you V.ncy approximately how many E non-conformances have been v-itten in the last few months?
\\
l' 6
A No, ! do not.
s 7
0 Do you look at the non-conformances?
8 A
Yes, I do.
1 1
9 C
How frequently do ycu look at them?
l 10 A
I get a copy of all non-conformances and icok at 11 them as they coce acros: my desk.
12 0
And you don't have any idea do you have any 13 id e a how many were written in the isst three ?.onths?
14 M2. ZAMAFIS:
That has been asked and answered.
15 He says he doesn't recall.
16 M3. PATON:
First he said he didn't know how 17 m a n y.
Then he said he didn't know approxicately hev r. a n y.
18 No v I am asking him does he have any idea how many?
19 M3. CAMAEIN:
That would be approximately hov 20 m a n y.
You are asking him to guess an'd that is im; roper.
21
- 32. A T C N Okay.
Do icu have any idea how many 22 nor -conformanc r have been written in the last few months?
23 MR. ;AhARIN:
That has been asked and answered.
I 24 diragt ::1 a not to answer.
25 ME. F!TOS:
That is all.
If you direct him not to ALCERSON AEPCRTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. C.O. 20024 (2021 E54-2345
~
56 1 answer that is all we really need.
2 EY MF. PATON:
(3esuming) 3 Q
Do you have knowledge of any single 4 non-conformance that has been written in ths last few months?
5 M?. ZAM.A?.!N I object to the f orm of the question.
,6 THE WITNESS:
Yes.
7 EY MP.. PATON:
(Eesuming)
B C
What was that?
9 A
There was a non-conformance, f or instance, written 10 on alectrical equipment having dirt inside of the equipment.
11 C
Are there any programmatic problems existing on 12 the site in the program?
13 A
The only ones that I as aware of are those la concerning th e results of a recent MAC audit on our test 15 program manual.
16 0
What are they?
17 A
I do not know off the top of my head.
They were 18 in my opinion minor audit finding: that had to do with 19 co rrecting some procedures in our test program.
20 0
What is YAC7 21 A
MAC is a consultant company that Consumers hires 22 to conduct bi-annual corporate audit.
23 Did they file a report with your?
24 A
Yes.
25 And your review of the repo rt is wha,t you are ALOER$0N REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINI A AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)!!4 2345
= ~
- Ireferencing when you say there vere minor prohlems?
2 A
Yes.
3 0
Did they make any finding tha t they were minor 4 problems?
Did.9AC mak? e finding that they were minor 5 prohlems?
6 A
The findings and non-conformances never indicate 7 whether they are major or minor.
8 Q
Does MAC evaluate the problems at all, or do they 9 just report them?
10 A
Th ey report the findings as well as give an 11 evaluation to managemen of the status of the OA program.
12 7
They gave an evaluation in this report?
13 A
Yes.
14 Q
Can you summarire it?
15 A
Not from memory, no.
16 C
The third area you mentioned under the headin; of 17 QA problems was trends developing.
!s that correct?
18 A
Yes.
19 C
Can you explain to me what you mean by that?
20 A
Part of the C A program is'to take a look at the 21 ty'pe of non-conformances that are occurring and if you see 22 more than one, or a significant number, of non-conformances 23 it indicates there is a trend rather than it being an 24 isolated case.
25 0
D: you have any situations such as that at the ALDERSON REPCRTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRG!NIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345 8
l 58 l
l 1 site now?
2
!?. 2AMARIN:
Do you mean a trend. developing, or 3 looking at things for trends?
4 gy,gy, pATON:
( ?.e s u mi n g )
5 C
o you have what you consider to be any trends 6 developing at the site right now?
7 A
-Not that I am aware of.
8 Q
Who is responsible for determining whether there 9 are any trends developing at the site?
10 A
The manager of quality assurance.
11 C
Who is that, sir?
12 P.
Walt Bird.
13 0
Does he spend most of his time at the site?
14 A
No.
15 Q
Does he spend most of his time in Jackson?
16 A
- telieve he spends :ost of his time in Jackson.
17 Q
! ask you were there any trends developing at the 18 site and I believe your answer was not to your knowledge.
19 Is tha t ccrrect?
20 A
Yes.
21 Q
Are there any trends developing in Jackson?
22 A
Not to my knowledge.
U Q
I am sorry.
I asked you whether Mr. Biri spen t 24 most of his time in Jackson, and if you answered it-I forgot.
25 A
- answered yes.
To my knowledge he spende most of ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345
59 1 his tire in Jackson.
2 C
- s he assigned t: spend one hundred percent of his 3 vorking hours on the Midland project?
4 A
- yes, i
o C
Are there other people who spend test cf their i
6 time in Jackson who are assigned one hundred percent in the 7 CA organiration in Jackson?
8 MR. ZAMARIN:
Could I hear tha t back please?
9 XE. PAT 0h:
may not have finished the question.
10 (The pending question was read by the reporter.)
11 MR. PATON:
I will strike the question.
12 EY ME. PATON:
( 2 e su r.ing )
13 C
Are there people other than Yr. Eird in the CA 14 organiration in Jackson who spend all their time On the 15 Midland proj ect?
16 A
Yes.
I'7 C
'40uld you name those people, please?
That person 13 or persons?
19 A
I do not kncv their names.
20 0
Do you know whether Mr. Earquglio is one of them?
21 A
"e is not one of them.
22 0
Oo you have any idea how rany persons there are of 23 th at description other - than Mr. Bird?
24 A
I believe there are around two or three.
25 C
Do you ever-talk to, write to, or otherwise ALDERSCN REPORTING CoMPANV. INC.
. 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (2021554-3 45
60 1 communica te with those people?
2 A
The people who spend one hundred percent of their 3 time o..
Eidland?
4 C
Yes.
4 5
A yo.
6 O
Mr. Keeley, I believe you stated that part of your 7 responsibility as Freject Manager was to be aware of CA 8 problems.
How do you become informed of CA problems?
9 A
I stated that part of it is coming through reviev 10 of non-conf ormances.
In addition, I attend quarterly 11 managemen t review meetings with the Q A department.
12 In addition, I receive a copy of the OA 13 depa'rtment's monthly report.
14 C
Okay.
Aside from reviewing documents, who do you 15 talk to in Jackson for the purpose of being aware of OA 16 problems in Midland on the ?.idland project?
17 YS. IAMARIN:
I'm scrry.
Could I have that read 18 ba ck, please ?
- 19 (The pending question was read by the repcrter.)
~
20 MR. PATON:
Can you answer the question?
21 THE WITNESS:
Yes.
I talked to Jim Cooke, Walt e
22 Bird, and 3en Marguglio.
23 -
BY XE. PATON:
(Resuming) 24 0
What is Mr. Marguglic's resconsibility with 25 'r esp ect to Midlaad?
ALD3RSON REPORTING OOMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASMNGTON O.C. 20C24 (202) 554 2345
61 s
i 1
A Mr. Marquglio has, under '.is direction, a OA group 2 which is responsible for providing assistance to 'a'al t Bird 3 for conducting audits.
He provides manpower.
In addition, 4 he is responsible f or the corporate OA program and the 5 auditing of that program.
6 0
!s Mr. Jim Cooke a Vice President?
7 A
Yes.
8 Q
Do you Anow what percent of Mr. Cooke's time he 9 spends on the Midland project?
i 10 A
Do you.mean at present?
I would estima te around
{
i l
11 nina ty ;ercent.
l 12 g
o you know how often he visits the site?
j 13 A
Approximately once every two weeks.
14 C
What essentially is the difference between your 15 responsibilities to Midland and Mr. Coese's responsibilities 16 to Midland?
17 A
Mr. Cooke has directly reporting to him the 18 manager of quality assurance Walt Bird, the licensing group, l
19 manager of---licensing, a'nd-the ::anager of cost and scheduling.
20 0
- i th respect to OA problems at the site, as
=
~
21 tetween you and Mr. Cooke, who has primary responsibility to 4
22 resolve those problems?
23 ME. "AMARIN:
I will object to the form of the 24 qu estion.
You have an assumption in there that one of the 25 two 'is primarily responsible to resolve the C A problems.
I ALDERSON REPORTING OCMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W.. WASHINGTC% 0.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
62 1 think that is contrary to previous testimony.
2
- y. ?.. PATON:
! will ask him another question.
3 3 Y ?.F. PATON:
(Fesuming) 4 o you have any responsibility to resolve OA 5 problems that are within your knowledge at the site?
6 A
Yes.
7 0
What is that responsibility?
8 A
That responsibility is if non-conformances or l
9 audit findings are written on the project management 10 organiration.
Whereas we are responsible for taking 11 corrective action on that non-conformance.
I h a v e-that 12 responsibility.
l 13 0
What if a non-conformance was written on something 14 other than project management?
Do you have any 15 responsibility f or that?
16 A
No.
Nc direc. responsibility, because 17 non-conformances or audit findings are very clear and who 18 ha s the principal responsibility for taking corrective 19 action to close out that non-conformance or audit finding.
20 -
Q You mean the non-conformance or the audit finding 21 st'ates specifically who is supposed to resolve it?
22 A
Yes.
23 Q
What would it state if the non-conformance was on 24 project management?
Is that it would state that it was 25 to be resolved by project management.
Is that what you mean?
At.OERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INO.
' 400 VIRGIN!A AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (2001554 2345
63 1
A That is correct.
2 0
What kind of non-conformances are to be resolved 3 by project management s trik e th a t.
4 Are there non-conformances that don't have to be 5 resolved by project management?
6 A
Yes.
7 0
Tell re what those are.
8 A
These are non-conformance written on anybody 9 3ech tel, 3EW, subcontractors, other subcontractors.
10 0
A non-conformance written on 3echtel is something-11 dif f erent than a non-confor:ance written on project 12 msna gemen t?
13 A
It is only different from the standpoint that the 14 non-conf ormance or audit finding is based upon whether who 15 was responsible for the work activity and why it was 16 non-conf erning and what co rrecti v e action should be taken.
17 Q
By project management you mean Consumers?
18 A
Sy project management I mean the personnel that 19 report directly to me.
I believe that was the. tone.of your 20 question.
21 0
Are there Consumers people on the site who don't 22 report to you?
23 A
Yes.
24 0
Who resolves a non-conformance written on 25 Bachtel?
Somebody within 3echtel?
l ALOERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 1202 554-2345
l l
l l
t 64 1
A Tha t is correct.
2 O
Is it correct that you have responsibility to 3 resolve non-conformances written on project managecent?
4 A
For the groups that report directly to me for 5 da y-to-d ay. firection.
6 C
Are there groups within project mana;sment that 7 don't report to you on a daily basis ?
8 A
Yes.
9 0
What are the groups that re po r t to you on a daily 10 basis ?
11 A
I believe I testified to those previously.
They 12 a re the engineering group, the administrative group, and the 13 construction, pre-operational testing and operational group.
14 2
Who has responsibility to resolve non-confor:ances 15 on p ro ject management involving groups other than 16 construction, testing, or the groups that report directly to 17 yo u ?
18 A
It would be based upon how the non-conformance is 19 vrit ten.
Whoever has conducted the work activity, and if 20 the non-conf ormance is written on that work activity it 21 vo'uid be the responsibility of that group to take corrective 22 ac tion.
23 0
Okay.
I understand.
l l
24 Is Mr. Horn considered to be within the 25 construction group that reports directly to you?
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INO.
400 VIRGIN!A AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20C24 '202) 554 2345
l i
65 1
A No.
2 0
s he is any group that reports directly to you?
3 A
No.
4 C
What group is he in?
5 A
He is in the Midland quality assurance group?
6 0
Who is responsible for resolving non-conformances 7 within t hat a:es?
8 YE. IA5ARIN.
In what area?
9 ME. PATON.
In the QA area?
Let me back up.
10 You said that Mr. Horn was not in any group that 11 repo rts directly to you.
12 THE WITNESS:
That is correct.
13 SY ME. PATON:
( 3 e sumin g )
14 C
He is in some other group?
15 A
Yes.
16 0
He is in the CA group?
17 3
That is correct.
18 0
Who does the CA group report to ?
19 A
They report to Mr. Cooke.
20 C
Oses Mr. Cooke nave responsibility to resolve 21 no'n-conf or ances written on that group?
ZZ A
He has ".he responsibility to see that they get 23 closed out and is kept up to date on the status of them.
24 Bu t, again, if the non-conformance is written on the group 25 th a t works for him, then the direct responsibility for ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
4C0 VtAGINTA AVE. S.W., WASHINGrON. D.C. 20024 (2021554-2345
66 1 taking the :orrecti?e action rests with the g:cu; that the 2 non-conformance was written on.
3 F.:. Co o k e, for instance, would not take the 4 corrective action to close something out that was written --
5 the non-conf ormance specifies what the problem is and who 6 was responsible for the vc:k activity.
It is that g: cup or 7 person 's responsihility to close that non-conformance out 8 and take corrective action.
S 0
You named certain g cups that repcrted directly to 10 fou.
! am sure you are extremely f amilia r with them, but 11 wrote the down. I thought fou used different words each 12 : m e.
13 You used engineering.
Do you equate that to 14 design?
15 A
That is correct.
16
'4hich werd do you use : ore frequently?
17 A
! use the word engineering design.
That should be 18 :n e proper ter=.
19 Q
Okay.
Engineering design.
And it is proper to XIsay group?
Engineering design group.
Is that correct?
21 A
That is :orrect.
22 C
!s it a constructior group?
There are four croups.
23 A
Construction group.
24 Q
The next one is testing of plant.
25 A
That is correct.
ALDERSCN REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 Vi>..NtA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. O.C. 20024 1202)554 2345
67 1
O You don't say testing of plant g cup, do you?
2 A
! guess I term it a ; oup.
- is the 3 pre-operational test group.
4 C
Administrati0n of contracts.
What do you call 5that group?
6 A
The administra tive group.
7 2
You are responsible for resolving non-confor:ances 8 vritten on project management for those f our groups -- the 9 four groups we just named?
10 A
Again, responsible for resolving non-conformances 11 rests with the person who the non-conformance is written 12 on.
It can be written on a person or it can be writte.- on a 13 gr o u p.
It is up to me to see that the non-conf ormances are 14 closed out and Oive adV*ce on closing them out.
15 MR. pA;oN:
let me have about two minutes.
16 (A briaf recess was :sk.en.)
{
l 17 RY MR. PATON:
(Resu= Lng) l l
18 0
Mr. Xee ey, how long have ycu been employed by i
19 Consumers Power Company?
20 A
Since 19f..
21 Q
00 you think that the soils problem that exists at 22 the Midland site now was caused in any way by the 23 incompetency of the people who partic: p ted in the filling 24 and compaction of the soils?
25 MR. 7,AMAR!N:
I will object to the form of the ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 vtMGINIA AVE. S.W.. WASHINGTON. O C. 20024 (202)554 2345 e
i 58 1 question.
2
- HE WITNEssa
- quess I would like a definition of 3 what is meant by incompetence.
4 BY ME. PATON:
(Resuming) 5 Q
Is it part ~ cf your job to determine the competence 6 of people who are employed by Consumers undar your 7 supervision?
8 ME. ;AMARIN:
The same objection as to form.
You 9 are using the same word.
Fe doesn 't know wha t you are 10 asking.
Do you mean the technical qualifications of 11 people ?
You are using the same word, asking another 12 question.
He doesn't know what you r.ean by that.
13 ME. PATON:
Do you have any trouble with the 14 question ?
15 THE W:TNESS:
I would have to have it read back.
16 (The pendin; question was read by the reporter.)
17 ME. PATON:
The witness indicated he was having 18 dif ficulty with the word incor.petence.
I am merely askinq 10him if the incompetence of the people who work fo r him is
~
20 no t specifirally within his responsibilities.
l 21 Now if he tells se he doesn't understand the 22 meaning of the worf incompetence I will go on to the next Z3 question.
I 24 ME. ZAMARIN:
I have an objection as to form.
He 25 ma y answer t he question.
ALDCRSCN REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINTA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202)554 2345
69 1
MF. ?ATCN4 Can you answer the question?
2 THE '4ITNESS:
It is my responsibility to evaluate 3 the competency cf the people who work directly for me.
4 EY ME. PATON:
(Resuming) 5 0
- s the difficulty that you had the fact tha t :
6 usec the word incompetence as c; posed to competency?
The 7 people who work for you?
Ckay.
8 Do you have an opinion whether the incompeterce of 9 any of the people involved in the fillin; and compaction of 10 the soils in Midland caused the problem?
11 XE. ZA%ARIN:
Caused the problem?
I will object 12 as t o f orm.
13 THE WITNZSS:
Yes, I have an opinion.
14 SY MP. PATON:
(Resuming) 15 0
'ihat is that opinion?
16 A
I don't think you can tie the cause of the problem 17 to a bla ck -a nd-whi te incompetency of individuals.
! think 18 it was nore complica ted than tha t and has been spelled out 19 in our ansvers in the OA area, which 1 previously pointed to 20 in 5 5.' 55 ( e).
21
~
Q
?o you know whether anyone in Consumers Power 22 Company was reprimanded or any other adverse personnel 23 action taken because of the soils problem?
Eecause of their 24 participation in the soils problem ?
25 A
I am not.svare of any.
No.
1 ALDERSON REPCRTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. 0.0. 20024 (2021554 2345 L.
70 1
C Could I ask you that same question as to 3echtel?
2 A
Would you repeat the questier, please?
3 (The ;ending question was read by the reporter.)
4 E! ME. PATON:
(Resuming) 5 C
Have you heard from anyone that there was any 6 adverse personnel action taken by the Sechtel Corporation 7 against anyone who participated in the filling and 8 compaction of soils ?
9 A
I would hsve to ask what is adverse -- whatever 10 the word was after adverse.
l 11 C
Personnel action.
You really don't know what :
12 ze an b y that?
13 MR. ZAMARINs He asked you the question.
14 SY XE. PATCNs (Eesuming) 15 C
I'm just asking him.
Your problem is you don't 16 understand that expression.
Is that correct?
17 A
Yes, that expression is ra ther broad.
18 C
Do you know of anyone who was reprimanded at 19 Sech tel in Yidland in the soils area?
20 A
I do not recall any direct reprimand.
21 C
Any indirect reprimand -- strike that.
22 Any reprimand of any kind?
23 MR. ZA!ARIN:
! object to form.
24 THE WITNESS:
Again, the word reprimand is quite 25 broad in my opinion.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINI A AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 200:4 I2021554 2345 L
l
________________m
4 71 1
SY ME. PATON:
(Resuting) 2 0
Y:. Keeley, do you know anybody at 3echtel that l
3 was fired because of his participation in the his 1
4 participation in the filling and co=paction of the soils at 5 the %idland site?
6 A
No, I do not.
7
- o you know anybody who was transferred because of 8 his activities ): participation in the filling and 9 compaction of the soils at the tidland site?
10 A
No, I do.not.
11 0
Do you know anyone at Bechtel that was told that 12 his decisions or any decision that he made during his 13 participation in the filling and compaction of the soils or 14 an y of the eerk done by Bechtel that led to it that those 15 decisions were not correct?
16 A
Yes.
17 C
'4ho was that?
18 A
I don't think it was a s;ecific person, but it was 19 the fact, one of the facts,-that entered into one of'the
(*
20 causes that was not a soils engineer, a geotech-type f
21 en'gineer on-site, one hundred ~;ercent of the tine during the i
22 soils placement..
23 Q
You say somebody made. a comment about the decision 24 that led to that situation.
Is that what you are saying?
3 A
!!c.
.I as saying-that was one of the reasons were ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON, O.C. 20024 1:02) 554 2345
72 1 listed in tha t 55.55(e) that could have been a pa rtial cause 2 of the problem.
3 C
There was not a soils engineer at the site one 4 hundred percent of the time because of a decision that was 5 made at Sechtel.
Is that correct?
6 A
That is my understanding.
7 0
What you were talking about a minute acc.
Did you 8 say someone told ser.eone else that th e decision that led to 9 th a t was wrong.
10 MR. 2AXARINs No.
I object.
That was asked and 11 answered.
You acked him that question and he ref erred you 12 to the 55.55(e) report.
13 MR. PATON:
Can you answer it?
14 THE WITNESSs I would hat. to ask you to repeat 15 that.
16 ME. PATON:
Strike it.
17 3Y ME. PATON:
(Resuming) 18 C
Okay, Mr. Keeley, I was asking you whether any 19 cocoents vere :ade that anybody at Bechtel had made an 20 incorrect decision during the filling and compaction of the 21 so'ils a t th e Xidland site.
You responded with the fact that ZZthere was not a soils engineer a t the site one hundred 23 percent of the time.
24 Is there some connection between those statements 25 in your mind?
- i ALDER $CN REPORTING COMP 4.NY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W.. WASHfNGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) $5. 2345
73 1
T3. ZAMA?IN:
Could I hear that again, please?
2 (The pending question was read by th e re por te r. )
3 MR. ZAMARIN:
I believe his response was fuller 4 than that and had more to it.
If you want to refer to it, !
5 would like to go back on the record and hear his response to 6 that question.
7 MR. PATON:
Fesponse to what?
8 MR. ZAMARIN:
You just quoted an answer that he 9 gave.
You said he responded in a certain way.
I would like 10 o hear his entire response, as long as ye u are asking hi:
11 about it.
12 (The response was read by the reporter.)
13 M3. PATON:
There is a pending question now.
14 MR. ZAMARIN:
I object to the for: cf the question 15 aise on the grounds that it is a mischaracteriration of tha 16 previous question and answer.
17 TEE WITNESS:
Yes.
I believe there is a 18 connection and -- in that somebody in the field made a 19 decision tha t a fi'id engineer with soils experience met the 20 in t en t of tnere being a geotechnical engineer.
21 MR. PATON:
Okay.
22 3Y ME. PATON:
(Resuming) 23 C
Have you heard from anyone th a t anyone at Bechtel 24 indicated that that decision that you have just described 25 was correct?
ALOERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. O.C. 20024 '2C2) $$4 2345
7a 1
- 53. ZAMA?!Na Let's have that ene back, please.
2-(The pending question was read by the reporter.)
3 3Y MF. PATON:
(Resuming) 4 0
Mr. Keeley, if I amend that last questien and say 5 incorrect instead of correct, do you have that question in 6 mind?
7 A
Yes.
This, a;ain, was discussed as one of the i
8 possible causes of the proble: and was presented in the 9 ansvers.
Not the ansvers but the 55.55(e) on the everall 10 quality assurance investigation on why the problem occurred.
11 C
You have just referenced the fact that there is an 12 indication socevhere that that decision was not the correct 13 decision.
Is that correct?
Is my statement correct?
14 A
No.
- do not remember a statement as such.
That 15 is was an incorrect decision.
I remember that it was a part 16 of why the ;;oblem could have cccurred.
I'7 Q
Do you knov.ho made that decision?
18 A
No, I do not.
19 (A brief recess was taken.)
20 EY MR. PATCN (Fesuming) 21 Q
Mr. Y.eeley, do you have an c; inion as to whether 22 the compaction equipment used to compact the soils was 23 qualified bef ore it was used to compact the soils?
24 M ?.. ZAHAPIN:
Chjection as to form.
23 THE WITNESS:
Ba sed upon my me= cry, the equipment ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VfRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. 0.C. 20024 (2021554 2345
13 1 was qualified to cc:;act the soils.
2 3Y ME. PATON:
(Resuming) 3 0
Yot: answer is that it was qualified te cor;act 4 the soils ;;ier to the time it was used to ccm;act the soils?
5 A
That is my opinion based upon memory.
6 Q
X:. Yaeley, dc you kncv anything about an 7 agreecent between Sechtel and U.S. Testing to toll the 8 statute of limitations?
9 A
I do not kncv what tell the statute of limitations 10 means?
11 0
That is not what : asked you.
I'll ask another 12 ques tion.
i i
13 u n've ycu ever heard those words used with respect 14 to any a; eesent between Sechtel and U.S. Testinc?
15 A
- have not hea rd these words used.
16 0
To your kncviedge, has Consumers P0ver identified I
17 f or the NRC the causes of the soils ;;;blem at Midland?
18 A
Yes.
19 C
70 your knowledge, did any:ne within Consumers 20 disagree with these conclasions -- disacree with the stated 21 ca'us es ?
22
-A Net to my knowledge.
No.
23 C
To your knowledge, did anyone in Bechtel disagree 24 with those stated causes?
25 A
Net to :y knowledge.
No.
AL0EASON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINtA AVE. S.W., W ASHINGTCN. D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345 6.
76 1
Q Mr. Keeley, I asked you a minute age about wh e th e r 2 you ever heard the words te toll the statute of limitations 3 in connection with an agreement between Sechtel and U.S.
4 Testing.
Have you ever read these words in connection with 5 an a; eement between 3echtel and
'). S. Testing?
6 A
- have read copies of letters concerning that, but 7 I don't recall the actual words.
8 C
Mr. Xeeley, are you f amiliar with a ;:. Feck, who 9 was hired by Bechtel with respect to the diesel generate 10 building p chlem?
11 A
Yes, I am.
12 0
Do you know what his reconmendation is with 13 respect to the diesel generator building?
14 A
I would like a little more specific definition of 15 with respect to the diesel ;enerator building.
16 0
You don't know tha t ! am referring te the 17 settlement problem with the diesel eeneratcr building?
18 A
! assume that is " hat you meant.
19 C
There is a proble with the diesel generator 20 building with respect'to settlement?
21 A
There was a problem with the diesel generator 22 building with respect to settlement.
23 Q
Did Dr. Feck, to your knowledge, make any 24 :ecommendation in the past with respect to any problem that 25 may have existed a t the diesel generator building?
/.-
f-l 7
ALDERSON REPORilNG OoMPANY, INC,
)
400 VIRGINtA AVE. S W., WASHINGTON. Q.C. 200:4 (202) $54 2345
{
l
77 1
A Yes, he did.
2 C
Do you know what the recomrenda tion vas?
3 A
Yes.
4 Q
What was it?
l 5
A The reco::endation was to place a surcharge on the 6 area and to also de-vite the area.
7 Q
- oes Consumers Power agree that the recommendaten 3 made by Dr. Peck is appropriate?
9 A
Yes, we do.
10 C
Oid you :enduct any investigation yourself as to 11 that recommendatica, or did you just accept his 12 recommendation?
13
- 93. TAMARIN:
Oo you mean you, Gil Keeley?
14 M?. ?ATON:
You, meaning Consumers Pover.
15 THE W!! NESS:
I don't know what you mean by 16 investiga tion.
I'7 BY !?. PATON:
(Resuming) 18 Q
Old you =ake any study yourself to see whether you 19 ag reed with wha t he was reccamending?
You being Consumers 20 pover?
~
21 A
We made no separate study, but we evaluated his 22 decision and depended upon his expertise to give us advice 23 in this area.
24 C
Did you make an independent conclusion yourself 25 that what he was advising was appropriate?
ALDERSON RE*ORTING COMP ANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON, 0.0. 20024 s2021554 2345
76 1
A I'm having trouble with the word independent 2 conclusion.
3 0
What I'm trying to get at is did you merely rely 4 on Dr. Feck, or did you make -- let me ask you this.
Do you 5 believe he is correct in his recommenda tior.?
6 A
Yes.
7 C
What makes yo u think so?
8 A
I believa he is correct because of his experience 9 and knowledge in the area.
10 C
Do you know why Eechtel hired Dr. Feck?
11 A
Eechtel hired Dr. Peck because they considered him 12 on e od, c : the world's reknown expert in-the area of soils, 13 and to get an independent consultant involved.
14 0
Do you have stop work authority at the l'idland 15 pro ject ?
16 A
Yes.
17 Q
Have you ever exercised it?
18 A
Y=s.
19 C
Can you tell me the circumstances invcived the 20 la st tine you exercised it?
21 A
The last time ! exercised it directly van when I 4
22 was Director of Quality Assurance and I believe concerned 23 installation of tandons in the contain:ent building.
24 0
Did you ever seriously consider exercising your 25 stop work authority while the filling and compaction of the ALDERSON REPORTING OOMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 f:02! 554 2345 w
79 1 soils vorX was pro;rassin;?
2 A
yo.
3 Q
Mr. Keeley, I think ye t stated, just generally 4 speaking, that Dr. Peck's reccamendation was to surcharge 5 and de-wa ter.
Cid you have any input tc that decision?
6 A
Yes.
7 C
Sy that, dc you mean that you provided information 8 to Dr. Feck in his considering the matter?
9 A
No.
10 0
Can you tell se what you mean by you had input?
11 A
I had input te evaluate in my mind which of th e 12 alternatives that could be possibly be implemented to 13 correct the problem should be utilired.
14 "as one of those alternatives to reccve the fill 15 t h a t had been placed and start all ever again?
16 A
Yes.
I'7 Did you consider the dollar cost of that 18 alte rnative?
19 A
Yas.
There was an estimate made of that.
20 0
Oo you have any idea what that vas?
21 A
! don't remember the figure.
It was provided in 22 answer 22, ! believe, to 50.54(f ).
23 Did censidera tion of that dollar cost affect your 24 decisionmaking process in that rgard?
25 1
That, along with the recommedation of Or. Peck ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INO.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. 0.0. 20C24 3202! $54 2 345 6
E0 1 that the su: char;e program would adeq ua tely ec: rect the 2 p chlec.
3 C
Do yo knew when 0:. Teck made that decision?
4 '4hether he was aware of the seismic design requirerents for 5 the diesel generator building?
6 A
t is zy understanding that he was aware of the 7 seismic desion requirements, because that aise entered into 8 the de ;ision on de-wa tering.
9 0
Oc you know.whether, since tha t ti me, the seismis 10 desien requirements have changed?
11 A
The seismic design requirements which the plant vs 12 built to and which are specified in the FSAE and the PSAE, 13 it is my understanding, have been reewaluated and ! am aware 14 of a letter f :s tne staff cencerning this subject.
15 C
Do you knew whether Dr. Feck has been prcvided 16 that inf o rma tion?
17 A
I do not know whether he has or has not.
18 Q
X:. Keeley, are you aware of any present lawsuits i
19 tetween Consumers and Bechtel which relate to the soils 20 problem in this case?
21 A
No, I am not aware of any.
2 22 Q
Are you aware of any -- have you heard of any 23 contem pla ted lawsuits between Eechtel and Consumers in this 24 ca se ?
25 MR. CAMAR!N:
I will cbject on the, ground that any ALDERSON REPORT'NG COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554 2345
j Bi 1 such inquiry would go into grounds that includ e privileged 2
MR. PATON:
Are you telling him not to answer?
3 ME. ZAMARIN:
Of course.
4 XE. P ATON :
Well, if you just tell him not to 5 answer you don't need to explain.
You have instructed him 4
6 not to answer that question?
7 3E. ZAMAR:N
- 5. ave exerted the privilege which 8 means you can't require him to answer.
l 9
XR. PATON: 'And you are telling him not to answer?
10
- 33. ZAZAEIN:
Well, sure.
11
%3. PA?ON:
Yes or no.
That is all it needs.
I i
12 3Y
?.E. PATON (Resuming) l l
l 13 0
Did you ever becoeve aware that there was a soils 14 problem in the area of the administration building?
15 A
Yes.
16 0
Can you tell me snen you becar.e aware of it?
17 A
- became aware of it sometime in 1977 when I 18 received a copy of a memo concerning that ;rchlen.
19 0
Do you know when anyone -- do you know when the 20 problem first occurred?
~
21 A
Based upon my memory, it was cometime in 1977.
M O
Do you know how many months ela; sed between the 23 time the problem occurred and the time you first heard about 24 it ?
25 A
No, ! do not remember that.
ALoERSON RE?oRTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VfRG'NIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 200:4 (*0215c4 2345 1
r-82 1
Q Do ycu know that it was scre than two =cnths?
2 A
I can't remember that.
3 0
Do you knew whether you heard about it strike 4 that.
5 Can you relate in any way to your knculedge the l
6 extent of time between tn+ time that this p chlem ha;;ened 1
7 and the time that you became aware of it?
j 8
A 33, ; :annot.
9 0
Do you recall ever saying that you were not aware 10 of the soils ; oblem at the administration building un til 11 af ter ycu became aware of the soils problem at the diesel 12 generator building ?
13 A
No, I don't remember saying that.
14 Q
Oc you knew whether Consumers or 3echtel took any 15 borings c: any other action te determine whether the soils t
1 16 protle: at the administration building was an isolated 17 ;:ctlem?
18 A
Yas.
! believe there were some be::ings taken.
19 C
D: you know how =any borings were taken ?
20 A
I believe there were two bo:ings taken.
l
~
21 C
'a' e r e t h o s e taken by Bechtel?
l 22 4
Those betings, I believe, were taken by a 23 subcontractor to Eachtel.
24 Q
Do you know whether that was U.S. Testing?
25 A
! do not believe it was U.S. Testing that took the ALCERSON REPORTING CQYPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVI. S.W., WASHING TON. D.C. 20024 (202) $54 2345
-e.
1 bo rin g s.
2 Q
Do you recall righ t nov who it was that took the 3 borings?
4 A
No, I do not.
5 C
Do you consider that you have sufficient expertise C to judge whether two borings are adequate to determine 7 whet.her a soils ;roblet at the administration building was 8 an isolated problem?
9 A
! do not consider that
!, personally, have the 10 expertise, but depended on somebody else for doing that 11 investiga tion.
12 0
- id you ever hear anycne at Consuners or Eecntel i
13 st at e wh e th e r th o se two bcrings -- strike that.
l 14 I believe you stated that the borings were taken 15 on behalf of Eechtel.
~!c that correct?
15 A
Tha t is ba sed upon my memory.
- believe tha t is-17 the case.
18 Q
Did Eechtel do anything else besides take two 19 borings to d etermine vnether the soils proble: at the 20 adminiztration building was an isolated problem?
21
^
A They not only took borings but ran bicy count 22 tests.
23 C
Did you ever heard anyone within Bechtel or 24 Consumers comment on whether Eechtel's investigation of the 25 soils problem at the ad =inistration building.vas adequa te te ALDEASON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W.. WASHINGTON. C.C. 20024.(2021554 2345
l 64 1 determine vasther it was an isolated problem?
2 A
I remember discussions with Tom Cooke on the 3 subject.
And tha t we considered, based ugon the blev counts 4 and the borings taken, that it was an isolated groblem.
5 Q
I want to nako sure I understand.
!t was your S conclusion and Mr. Tom Cooke's conclusion at that n e e tin g ?
7 A
It wasn't a :eeting.
It was just in verbal 8 conversation.
)
9 C
In the course of that conversa tion it was your 10 conclusion that the investication was adequate to determine 11 that it was an isolated problem.
Ic that what you are 12 saying ?
13 A
- yes, 14 C
Taking into account nov hindsight, and by that 15 : mean taking into account all the knowledge that you nov 16 h a ve, do yoc now consider that that investigation was 17 ad equa te ?
IS
". 2. ZAHAPIN:
1st me object to the form.
So you 19 mean it was adequate based on what they Anew'at the time, or 20 assu ming they knew at the time everything they know now?
21 MF. PATON:
Just a minute.
Let me try that.
22 E!
F.F..
PATCN:
(Fesuming) 23 C
Mr. Keeley, do you agree now, based on all the 24 knowledge that you now have, that in dact it was not an 25 isola ted ;r:blem?
i l
l
\\
l l
1 1
ALDERSON RE*CRTING COM'4NY, INC.
l 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASMNG*ON. O.C. 20024 (202)554 2345
95 1
A Yas.
2 C
Do you a;ree that Sechtel ca:e to the wrong 3 conclusion?
4 X3. :AMARIN:
I will object to the form of the
-o quest.<on.
6 X?. P ATON :
Do you vant me to go through the whcie 7 thin; again?
If you do, I will be glad to.
8
?. E. 2AMAEIN:
This is in the fra everk of 9 knowledge based on knowledge th a t he has nov.
10
- v. E. PATON:
Off the recc:4.
11 (A discussion was held off the record.)
12 3Y y?, PATON:
( F.esu min g )
13 0
5:. Kseley, do you believe tha t, based on the 14 inf ormation Sechtei had at the time when they decided ena:
15 the soils problem at the administ:stion building was an 16 isciated pr:ble: that they made the right decision?
17
- ' E. ZA%ARIN:
Could I hear that back, please?
18 (The pending question was read by the repc :er.)
19 THE "ITNESS:
Yes.
20
?! XE. PATON:
(Eesuming) 21 C
If 3echtei had had at that time all the 22 inf ormation that they.: e possers, vould they arrive at the 23 same d ecision ?
24 A
In =y opinion, nc.
25 Flease tell us what infermation it is that makes ALDERSON REPORT:NG COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGtN!A AVE, S.W.. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (2021554 2345
l SS 1 that-difference.
i 2
A The additional information is that we have t
3 experienced settlement in another area which we didn't have 4 before and, as a result of that settlement. we had to take 5 additional borings v.~.ich showed the problems with the soils.
6 C
s it your opinion that Eechtel took a sufficient 7 number of borings when they first addressed the problem of S the administration building?
9 ME. ZAEARIN:
That was asked and answered.
He 10 said yes previously, unless you are asking him based on what 11he knows today.
12 ME. FATON:
Yes.
Based on what you know today, do 13 you have an opinion as to whether Sechtel took en otgh 14 bo rings when they.ade their initial investigation of the 15 administration building for the soils problem?
16 ME. : A Y A ?. :N :
And assuming 3echtel didn ' t have 17 th a t inf orma tion then that we have now?
Only by hindsight?
18 ME. PATCS:
No.
That has nothft.g to do with that.
19
( A discussion was held off the record.)
20 3Y ME. PATON:
(Eesuming) 21 C
' Mr. Keeley, am I correct in stating that you said s
22 th a t, based on the information Bechtel had at the time they D made their initial decision that the soils problem at the 24 administration building was an iso' lated problem, that they 25 made the righ t ' decision?
ALDERSON REPOP. TING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20C24 (202) 554 2345 i
1 l
S7 1
A Yes.
2 O
Oc you think th a t the infor:stion that they had 3 available at ' that time was adequate to r.ake that decisien?
4 A
Yes.
-5 0
Do you think that sound engineerin; jud;=ent Sexercised at that time vould have indicated that you should 7 take more borings than they tock?
8 A
No. I think sound engineering judg=ent was used 9 based on what they saw at that time.
10
?
The exercise of sound engineering judgment at that 11 time in fact' turned cut to give a result that was not 12 cc :ect.
So you agree with that?
13 A
- Eased upon subsequent events that is cc :ect.
14 0
Mr. Meeley, were there any pec;1e wi thin Consumers 15 c: Eechtel who disagreed with Rechtel's conclusicn that the A
16 soils p:chlen at the administration building was an isciated 17 p ctiem ?
18 A
I'm nct aware of anybcdy who disagreed with that.
19 ZR. PATCN I have no more questions.
20 MR. ZAMARIN:
'4e have nothing else.
21 ME. FATON:
It is stipulated that NBC De;csition 9
22 Exhi bit 1 is a resume of p:cfessional and educational 23 experience of Gilbert S.
Keeley.
24
('4hereupon, at 1:10 p.m.,
the deposition was i
25 concluded.)
l i
I l
i ALDERSON REPORTING 00MPANY. INO.
400' VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. c.C. 20C24 (202) 554 2345
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