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Transcript of DE Horn 801021 Deposition in Midland,Mi.Pp 1-174
	ML20090A767
Person / Time
Site:	Midland
Issue date:	10/21/1980
From:	Horn D; CONSUMERS ENERGY CO. (FORMERLY CONSUMERS POWER CO.)
To:	;
Shared Package
ML17198A223	List: IR 05000329/1981014; IR 05000329/1982013; IR 05000329/1983008; ML20090A052; ML20090A064; ML20090A067; ML20090A071; ML20090A076; ML20090A080; ML20090A090; ML20090A103; ML20090A106; ML20090A110; ML20090A367; ML20090A377; ML20090A397; ML20090A403; ML20090A447; ML20090A451; ML20090A456; ML20090A465; ML20090A481; ML20090A487; ML20090A491; ML20090A500; ML20090A504; ML20090A514; ML20090A517; ML20090A543; ML20090A547; ML20090A559; ML20090A590; ML20090A594; ML20090A600; ML20090A613; ML20090A614; ML20090A623; ML20090A626; ML20090A631; ML20090A637; ML20090A642; ML20090A656; ML20090A658; ML20090A673; ML20090A698; ML20090A703; ML20090A733; ML20090A741; ML20090A748; ML20090A751; ... further results
References
	CON-BOX-12, FOIA-84-96 OL, OM, NUDOCS 8012090479
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Nuclear 3egulatory Commission 6 Midland Service Center 1100 South Washington Street 7 hidland, Michigan 1 8 Tuesday, October 21, 1980 9 Deposition of DONALD ELDON HORN, a witness herein, J 10 called for examination by Counsel for the Nuclear Regulatory 11 Commission in the above-entitled matter, pursuant to notice, 12 the witness being duly sworn by Marilyn Shockey, at the 13 Nuclear Regulatory Consission, Midland Service Center, 1100 14 South Washington Street, Eidland, Richigan, commencing at 15 9:55 o ' clock c.:., Tuesday, Cetober 21, 1980, and the 16 proceedings being taken down,by stenomask by tarilyn Sheckey 17 and transcribed under her direction. 18 AI? EAR AN CIS s 19 On behalf of the Nuclear Regulatory Commissions v. 20 WI11IAE PATON, Esq. 3RADLEY JONES, Esq. 21 Nuclear E egulatory Commission' i Earyland National Bank Building l 22 Bethesda, Maryland 23 24 25 l 1 1 \\ l l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (2021664 2345 [' Il r

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r,.~<,- .w :.;ac3-9 3?y. _- ~r-~ -: =;- .,y ~ -Q:;W,, -% % i )., 2 1 On behalf of Consumers Power Co panyt 2 RONALD G. ZAHARIN, Esq. ALAN FA3NELL, Esq. 3 Isham, Lincoln C 3eale One First National Plara 4 Chicago, Illinois 60603 5 . JAMES 3EUNNER, Esq. Consumers Power Company 6 212 West Michigan Jackson, Michigan 49201 7 ALSO PRESENT: 8 OENE GALLAGHER, 9 NRC Inspection and Enforcement, Eegion III 10 RAYEOND SUTPHIN, NBC Inspection and Enforcement, 3egion III 11 JOHN GILRAI, 12 NEC Ocality Assurance 3 ranch, Bethesday, Earyland SILL MAINES, 14 '4MPX 15 DARL H30D, NRC, Division of Licensing, 16 3 e th esda, Maryland, 17 SANDRA VISSEE, Paralegal, 18 Consumer Power Company 19 SHAEON WARREN, Intervenor s 20 EARBARA STAEIRIS, Intervenor 21 4 22 23 24 25 \\ i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 400 VIRGINtA AVE S.W., WASH'NGTON, D.C. 20024 (2021554 2346 )

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.4 ; >- c.- w -c, -r.. c .,.3.. 3 1 ??OCEEDI N CS 2 X3. PATON: This is a deposition of Donald Horn of 3 Consumers Power, scheduled to start this morning at 9:30, 4 pursuant to notice. 5 We are going to ask that people in the room not at 6 coun sel table identif y themselve s, starting with Mr. 7 Gallagher. 8 3R. GALLAGEIE4 Gene Gallagher, NEC Inc,pection and 9 Inforcement, Region 3. 10 3R. SUTPHIN: Ray Sutphin, ICI, Region 3. 11 %R. GI13A!s John Gil:ay, G-i-1-:-a-y, Quality 12 Assurance Branch, Sethesday, !aryland. 13 ER. 2AINISs My name is Bill Maines. I as with 14 WMPX. 15 MR. HCCDs My name is Carl Hood. I am with the 16 Nuclear seculatory Commission, and I as with the Divisica of 17 Licensing. 18 ES. YISSIR4 Sandra Visser, V-1-s-s-e-. I an a 19 paralegal for Consumers Power. 20 MS. WAREEN Sharon Warren, accepted intervenor. ~ 21 ES. STAMARIS: S arbara Stam aris, S-t a-n-a-r-i-s, 22 int arv enor. 23 Whereupoa, 24 DONALD HORN, 25 the deponent herein, called for examination by Counsel for \\ ALDf ASON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 564 2346

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, w, ._,.. 3.y; 23:w;. 3.. no- .n. c -- r - - r ~v.g -N% c. .a. v...-- 5 1 0 You attended P.ichigan Technical University for two 2 years, is that correct? i 3 A Yes. 4 C Did you have any courses there that devoted F 5 themselves just to the subject of quality assurance or 6 quality control? 7 A. No. 4 8 C Did you major in civil engineering? 9 A Yes. 10 C Can you break it down any more than that, or t I 11 within that nader, was there any speciality, or was it civil i i 12 engineering? Is that the dese:1ption? 13 A Civil engineering was the description. Fevever, I 14 did have electives, and those were construction. I 15 0 Were any courses devoted to the study of soils i l 16 engineering? i 17 A res. 18 C Tell me about those..How many courses did you 19 take that addressed that subject? 4 20 A Two. !t would be one year of soils engineering. l 21 0 Was that two three-hour courses? Is that what ~ s 22 that was? 23 A Yes, and there was a lab with a one hour credit 24 sf ven. l 25 0 What year did you graduate? l l [ I J \\ l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, WC. l f 400 VIRONA Avt. S.W., WASHWOToN. D.C. 20024 (2026 564 2386 ..~...

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A '71. 2 Q Did you go to work for Consumers immediately after 3 you graduated f rom school? 4 A No. a l 5 Q .Did you graduate in June of '717 6 A Yes. 7 Q What was your employment following June of '717 ~ r 8 A I worked for two weeks with Delta Engineering in 9 Flint. 1 i 10 C What was your employment after that? l 11 A With Consumers Power Company. 12 C I want to make sure. Have we complated all your 13 formel education? 14 MR. ZAEARIN: After high school. a, 15 3Y EP.. PATCNs (Eesuming) l 16 C After high school. 17 A Yes. 18 0 You haven't taken any two week courses or one 19 aonth courses or three day courses or anything like that 20 since that time? ? 21 A Not accredited, no. s 22 C When you came to work for Consumers, was that July 23 '717 4 24 A Yes. i 25 C What was your first job? 'N ALDERSON REPORTmG COMPANY. WC. 410 WtemetA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 4 -

' i O. c-n< -. ~,,.7y, - - .. 3,,; ?.- 3.. w.pq - .c,..; u. 5. ~_ 3,.-._ .7,y.g.. c<' ' V'.- a 7 i 1 A Soils engineer. 2 C What project was that? 3 A The ludington Pump Storage Project. 4 C ludington what? 5 A Ludington Pump Storage Project. 6 0 Where is that? 7 A Ludington, P.ichigan. 8 Q What was your job there? I mean, you said it was 9 soils engineer, but what did you do? 10 A I was in charge of the dikes. 11 Q The dikes? I 12 A On the reservoir, and then later it was 13 restoration of the site, and also construction of picnic 14 areas and campsites. 15 C Festoration of the site. Restore it from what, 16 from the impact of construction or what? 17 A Yes. 18 0 What did you do at the dikes? What kind of work i 19 did you do on the dikes? i 20 A ! va.s Consumers' representative for the soil 21 p1'acemant for cost and schedule of the reservoir. s 22 0 At this time did you have any responsibility with 23 respect to quality assurance? Was quality assurance 24 applicable to this dike? 25 A It did not fall under a CA program, but we did run l l l s ALDSRSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. e, 400 VIAOINIA AVE. S.W., WASNINGTON, o.C. 20024 (202) 564-2346

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. + e .s. Q % _;c=~. u w i :: n-Q laudits on the work going on. 2 Q Was there a formal quality assurance program in 3 connection with this work? 4 A No. 5 0 .Did you have any quality assurance 6 responsibilities at that time? 7 A Yes. 8 0 What were they? 9 A It would be the performance of audits on work 10 going on. 11 0 What were you auditing? ! mean, what were you j 12 trying to find? 13 A Auditing the specification. 14 Q Do you mean deternining compliance with the 15 specifica tion? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Did you determine at any time that there was 18 noncompliance with the specification? 19 A Would you restate the question? 2 20 Q Oid ycu deternine at any time that there was 21 soncompliance with any of the specifications ? 22 A Yes. 1 23 Q ! ore than once? 24 A Yes. 25 Q What did you do about it? 6 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. O.C. 20024 (202) 554 2348

l Y~ _,.m '.y *.;L*?~~.q y y..-- ,.. - Lf ? - g ,=g a 3:, n-m.*-- 4-9 1 A They would be written up in the audit report. If i 2 it wasn't something that ! vas watching during an audit, it 3 would be contacting the people that were doing the work, 4 contacting an inspector and pursuing it through that, or 5 contacting zy supervisor. 6 C Do you recall whether the nonconformance was fixed? 7 A Yes. 8 Q I construed your answer to be that you recall 9 whether the nonconf ormance was fixed. to Now, let ne ask you, was in fact the i 11 nonconformance fixed ? 12 A Yes. 13 C It was. Okay. 14 Hov long were you at the Ludington Pump Storace i 15 prosect ? 16 A Ivo years, approximately two years, a little over 17 two years. 18 C July or August of '73 maybe? 19 A No, ! left November, part time in November, and 20 full time in December I was cone from the project of '73. 21 Q I'm not sure, you are talking about part time, 22 f ull time. You were working full time for Consumers during 23 this entire period? 24 A Yes. 25 C In December of ' 7 ll, you terminated your work at '\\ ALC*RSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 400 vtRGINIA AW. $ W., WA*.Hft'GTON, D.C. 20024 I2021504 2348

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10 ' ~ .]{ J:,. ' Chi, 3@ %a-1 the it.ngton Fump Storage Project, is that correct? 2 A No. j 3 0 Vould you explain that to me? 4 3R. ZAEARINs December of '73. 1 5 THE WITNISS: Eicht. 6 BY 23. PATOR: (Resuming) 7 Q Oh, December of '73. You at that point terminated 8 your employment at ludington. 9 A Yes. 10 0 Did your employment change at any time while you ~ 11 vere at ludington? Did you go to a different job? 12 A Yes. 13 0 What job -- the first job you had was called soils 14 engineer, is that right? 15 A Yes. t 16 0 What job did you, change to? What was your next 17 job? 18 A ! vas in charge of the recreation facilities. 19 C Vere you still a soils engineer? l s 20 MR. "AMARIN: Wait a minute. Do you mean by i 21 description or training or nature? It is a little unclear s 22 as to what you are asking him. 23 2P. PATON: I think if the Witness is unclear, he 24 can tell ne he's not clear. I don't think -- are you going 25 to alert me all day and tell ne when you are not clear on a ,1 s ALDERSON REPoRTWO COMPANY, WC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASMWGTON, D.C. 20024 12021 Ste ties

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r,.. i 11 1 question? 2 MP. :AEARIN Yes. 3 ER. PATONs I think that is ina;;ropriate. 4 ER. AEARIN: I don't. 5 ,52. P.' TON You are going to tell the Witness when 6 a question is unclee r? 7 F.R. AHARIN: Yes. 8 !R. PATON: Okay. 9 BY !R. PATON: (Pesuming) 10 Q Let me ask you, you were a soils engineer when you 11 started at Ludington. 12 A Yes. l 13 C Were you a soils engineer for the entire time you 14 vere a t Ludington ? 15 A That is not clear to me. 16 ER. AMARIN: Ace you asking his about his $ch 17 title there or whether in f act by training he is a soils 18 engineer? 19 !! MR. PATONs (Resuming) 20 Q What did you mean in the first place when ycu told 21 ma' you started as a soile engineer? 5 22 A ?.y title was svils engineer. 23 Q Was your title soils engineer for the entire time 24 you were at Ludington? 25 A Yes. \\ ALDER $oN REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 400 VIRG8NIA AVS. 5.W,. WASMtNGTON. 0.C. 20024 (202) 984 2344

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_ s-,e veaa>< . = = = = ~ew 12 - Q+: ~ R.a -,.ygL::- w n.a + - .. i y. - 1 0 Put you verked with he dikes as "irst, and then 2 you vent to the recreational areas, is that right? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Tor the entire period you had no OA t Sresponsibilities. 6 3R. CAEARIN: Wait a sinute. That's not what he i 7 testified to. 8 !!. PAT 0Xa I'll ask his. i 9 It is going to be a long day. 10 3R. ZAXARIN: Don't nischaracterire his testisony I. I J 11 and we vill be all right. 12

53. P4 TON:

You, don't think you sischaracterited i 13 anybody's testimony? 14 tR. A!ARIN No, I don't. 15 BY ER. PATON: (Pesusing) 16 C !s it correct thn,t you did not have CA 17 responsibilities while you were at Ludington for some period 18 of time ? When you first vent there did you have any QA 19 eesponsibilities? + s l 20 A Yes. ~ 21 C You did? s 22 A Yes. 23 C I thought you said you did not, but you did. 24 What were those responsibilities? 25 A I made sure that the work going on set the f g AL3enson nepontime cowANY, pec. aoswnownA Ave t.w.,wAsMWOTON,0.c.200341303I904 3348 {

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..a .y ~ 13 t 1 specifications that had been writen. t 2 Q When you went to the recreational area, did you 3 have any OA responsibilities there? l 4 A Yes. \\ 5 0 .You did? 4 What were they? 7 A !aking sure that the specification was followed in i 8 the work that was going on. 9 C Did you find any nonconforsances in that area? 10 4 Not that I recall. l 11 Q After December ! '73, what was your next 12 employsent with Consumers? You left the ludington area, the 131udington Pump Storage Project. 14 A Yes. [ 15 C What did you do then? [ t le 4 I came to Midland and worked at the Midland I 17 nuclear site. i 18 C Vas that in December in January? l IS A fart time in N.ovember, full time in December. ) 20 C What was your first job at Midland? 21 A Tield Ouality Assurance Engineer. s 22 0 Tield CA Engineer, is that correct? l 23 A Yes. 34 C F.sw old were you a t that time? 25 A Twenty-four. 2 I ALDERS 0se mWORTIIst COMP 48fY, esc. e. age vineenA Ave. S.W., wassesseTON. 0.C. 3000419831IN 3MS

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f f 5 the three, year period or f our year period you supervised one [ eperson. t l 7 A At the end of that I did. 8 Q My question is, at any time during that three year 8 period did you supervise more than that one persea? 10 A yo. 11 NR. TANARIN: Just se the record is clear, he l 12 states that he didn'.t supervise anyese during that perlede l 13but at tne end, that is when he started to supervise 14 someone. I think there is sene cesf usion perhaps la your Ifmini. I 14

22. PATON I don't think so.

He said at the end 17 of the three year period he was supervising ese person. it Mt. ZAMARINa No. At the end, he didn't supervise 19 se ssene. 30 XR. PATONa Let ne try it again. 21 If.9R. PATON: (Pesusing) l-22 C Durin9 the three year period, did you ever 23 supervise anybody? i 34 A fee. i l 5 Q I think you indicated before at the end of the l r g i m neMwmme,esumeny, me. aos vuesna ave, e.w., waeumeten, s.c. seems sases ses. sees 4

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he three year period would end December of '76 8

Q So your testimony is that when you began to 9 supervise the person, it was after the three year period. 10 A That is correct. I said approximately three years 1 l 111n my testisony. 12 Q ! thought you told se you supervised a person at 13 the end, but you sean af ter this three year period you l 14 supervised a person. Il Let se ask the witness, please, I don't think you 18 should sit there and constantly -- I as going to put on the l 17 record that we are starting the day with P.r. Zasaria 181sterjecting himself between se and the witness to the point l 18that I as not able to interrogate the witness fairly, and I 20 think it is inappropriate. l 21

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uv 17 1 ER. "A!Ai!Na I will cbject to the form of.the 2 question because you were talking about' a three year period, 3 and that date is imprecise. He said abcut three years. 4 Perhaps if you ask his during the. period he was quality 5 field assurance engineer, you would then have an absolute 6 time f rase on it, and that way we won't have to worry about J 7 this imprecise appecximate three year period. J 8 MR. PA?0No I really don't want any help fros 9you. You are interjecting yourself unduly in my 10 interrogation of the witness. If the witness and I don't 11 understand each other, I think the witness can say if h6 l 12 doesn't understand the question, and I don't think you j 13 should constantly sit there and interpret questions for the 14 witness and perhaps tell his when you don't understand the 4 Ilquestica. le MR. ZAEARINs Your sisperception of the role of - I 17 lawyers at a deposition is not going to affect the way I 18 represent my client. If you ask a question that is bad as 19 to f ors, or confusing or unintelligible, I will object and 30 ve vill go f rom there. 21 2R. FA;0Ns I'll still object to your constant 22 interjecting yourself between myself and the witness. 23 MR. IAEARINs I know you do. 24 !Y 27. PATONs (Resusing) 2R Q Let me ask you about this. You have indicated 1 N ALDOR0'A A08047We8 COMP 40ev. WeC. i A 400 vtpoweA Avt. S.W., WAtesieseT006. 0.C. 30004 13081004 3349

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.,,,---.,...--s,,.4. [QN ~._,~..m 1 th at you supervised one person rosewhere near tTe end of l i 2 this three year period, is that correct? I l 3 A Yes. 4 Q Tor how long a period of time did you supervise I this person? i 8 let se strike that question. i 7 Did you supervise this person at any time during l [ 8 the three year period? i 8 A 40. 10 Q So you supervised this person af ter the three year 11 period. 12 A Yes. 13 Q What responsibilities did you have when you l 14 started your espioysent as a field quality assurance llentineer in Oecember of '737 14 A I received the civil discipline at the Eidland 17 site. 18 Q I's sorry, I didn't hear you. Would you say thte 18again? E A I had the civil discipline at the Midland site. 21 Q Civil discipline? Could you tell se what that s 22 sean s ? 23 ) Any civil activities that would occur, I was in 24 charge of the quality assurance of that activity. 3 Q What does civil include? What kind of work does l l i x l l ALeoneos nepontwee conspany, wet. ese vinonna avt, s.w., wassanseton, e.c. seems (seet ese. sees i

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, a :g,, 19 1 is. * :1ude? It includes concrete, reinforcing steel, coatings, f 2 j 3 s:: 4 I dont want to interrupt you. Have you finished? 5 A Yes. You said concrete, reinforcing steel, and the last 4 t 7, c a. ..ta soils. The other one was coatings? l 8 A Yes. i 9 Coatings over what? i 10 A Steel surfaces, concrete surfaces. i 11 'Jhat were your responsibilities? Take any one if J 12 y: vant, concrete or whatever. What did you do? 13 A I reviewed specifications. I performed audits. I 14 p crsed walk-through surveillances of concrete activities. 15 Tell so what you did with respect to soil work. t 14 4 The same for soils. 17 You reviewed -- you say you reviewed the \\ l 18 r;

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I 19 Did the asocifications you reviewed, were they 20 r. lied by techtel? 21 A yo. i 22

35. IARARIN:

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gg. :AEAF:N You b'(t. You asked his specifically I 2 about solis. Are you now going back about generai or are l I 3 you keeping it to solist It makes a difference. i ER. P ATON a With respect to solis. 5 . THE WITNEfts I don't know what you mean. i l l 6 gy !r.y. PA;0Na (Resuming) 7 0 You said you reviewed specifications. That is one l i 8of the things you tid. 9 A Yes. 10 C And you did that with solis. l 11 A Yes. i 12 Q Whose specifications were they? Ehe wrote thes? 13 A lechtei. 14 Q s it part of your procedure to check those il specifications against the PEAR or the document filed by itConsumers with the NRC7 17 A The question is too generai.

here were seven 18 years there.

19 Q I as asking you, do you consider that for this N three year period that you were a field quality assurance 21 ensineer, do you consider that as part of your Joht Sheeld t l 22 you check the specifications given to you by lechtoi against 28the PSAR or the FIAlt 34 A Yes. 28 C Did you do that? l A6semeem nopentose senspawv, sec. see weenaA Ave, s.w., wasnosetens, s c. asses aseen ses.asse - f

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4 hat does 95 percent 15 compaction meant 16 A

95 percent cospection seans that you have 95 17 percent of a standard compaction test. 18 Q Cid the techtel specifications state what that 19 standard test vast 20 A Yes. 21 Q Did the PSAR state what that standard test vast 22 A I don't reca11. 23 C You do recall -- do you recall what the standard 24 test was in the lechtel specification? 28 A Yes. '\\ N A0 PORT 1886 C0h8PANY, IIeC. 400 WiesetA Avt. 8.W.,WASMace?ON. 0.C. 20034 tasti 904 3348

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...mm...%......,,..,, y [ G $. b e w w .r.7,. C $7.. d* ^' i 1 0 What was it? i i 2 A There were two of them, and I am not sure on the 3 wording. One was related to AST! D-1517. The other was 4 Sechtel Zodified Proctor. i 5 0 .Was there any conf usion as to which of these tests 4was applicable? 7 !R. ZAHARIN: Excuse me. I will object to the i 1 8 form. Confusion on the part of whom? 9 SY !R. PATON (Resusing) 10 0 Was there any confusion on anyone's ; art as to 11 which of these tests was applicable? 12 A The question is too general. Could you give se a 1 ] 13timeframe when? 14 C The three year period, '74, '75, '76. i 15 A Yes. l 16 C Are you aware of any correspondence addressing f 17 this sutject in that timefrase? 18 A Yes. I 19 Q Vere there several letters back and forth between 2 the tochtel people at Ann Arbor and on the site trying to 21 c1'arif y this question? I 21 4 Not that I recall. 23 C When you audited or when you did your quality 2 24 assurance, or when you did your verk as a field quality 25 assurance engineer, which of the two test {s did you use to AtmenseN ASPo4TW86 CetfPANY. WC. aos vmesma avs. s.w., wasmes0 TON. 0.C. 30004 (303: 806 8380

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% w.. .,4.. 23 1 determine whether there was compliance? 2 A I used Bechtel Eodified Proctor. s 3 Q Why did you use that one and not the other one? 4 A locause telecons had been written to state that 5 that was 30 be used. 4 C Tros whos? 7 A The site to project engineering. 8 Q The site. Who is the site? 9 A The sidiand site. 10 0 Who is that? It sust come from some person. 11 The one that I recall was Bechtel CA had a telecen 12 with project engineering. I 13 0 Bechtel QA to project engineering. That is 14 consusers? 15 A No, that-is t ech tel. 14 Q 5t the Rechtel CA people told the fechtel 17 engineering people that the test to be used was the techtel 18 Modified Proctor. 19 A No. 20 C Not How is that wrong? 21 A I believe you stated that techtel CA solds project 22 engineering what the test was to be. 23 C Right. 34 A It was the other way around. 25 C lechtel project engineering told -- the people at t \\ ALDOR$04 AGP0stTWO COMPANY, WIC. 400 vm0senA Avt. 8.W., WAtweefoN. D.C. 30004 18081944 3346

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'T *..7 - s1 pfjch$ k i the site told the people at th'e site what it was to be. 2 A Yes. 3 0 Put you never to your knowledge checked the FSAR 4 the Consumers filed with the NRC to determine what was 51ndicated there was the proper test? 4 A Yes, I did. 7 0 You did? 8 What did you find? 9 A I didn't find any requirement in the PSAR for that 10 compaction test, to the best of my knowledge. 11 v3. PA;0Ns Let me show you a document that has 12 go t a date at the tcp which is difficult to read. I believe 13that date is Har=h 22, 1979.

n pencil on the front, far 14 whatever evidentiary value or not, are the words l

l it-Inv.sti,ation r. port.-

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18 on page 2 of James C. Keppler, which I have marked 17 Deposition Exhibit.9o.1 f or identification. l 18 (The document referred to was 19 marked Deposition Exhibit 20 No.1 for identification.) 21 3Y BR. PATON: (Resuming) 22 0 Xow that your attorney has put the date and your 23name en it, I'll ask you if yes have ever seen that before. M A I have seen a copy of this. 3 C 'Jhat is that? 's j A680R0080 map 08mWG 4thePANT. INS. dag WWhessa AWS. 8.W., Wateesseten, e,g, geggs laget ges.P 4 i

' '... ' ;.. 1 4 ;..c. p.-. :s;.3 -- j e - ,,_,,.4, .;.',.I.i;7;, p;.... Ig.. * * 'U.,. ,S '-' w 25 1 A This is an ICE report. 2 C Can you te11 se any more about what it is?

s it 3 just another ICE report?

4 A It is an ICE report of the soils investigation 5 that Region 3 performed at the site, Ann Arbor and in 4 Jackson. ' 7 Q Did you read it sore than once? 8 A Yes. 9 Q The appropriate cospection test -- is the l 10 appropriate compaction test a significant consideration in l l 11 detersining the consideration of the soils difficulties at 12 Midland? 13 MF. :AHAR Ns could we hear that back before he l 14 ansv ers ? 18 (The pending question was read by the Beterter.) 16 sr. ZAMARIN: I chject to the fors of that 17 question. 18 If !!. PA;0Ns (Resuming) 19 Q ist se ask the witness, did you understand that 20 question ? f I 21 A Yes. 22

27. PATON:

Do you still object to the fors of the i 23 question? l 24 MR. :ARARIN: I didn't object on the basis that it 28 wasn 't understandable. It is just the fors. You used the nunnson ete.ntwo cons *aNv,wec. ese wooenA Avs. S.w,, wasametoes, D.C. 30004 (308N3384

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here were two specifications, C-210 -- in f act, i

20 there were three specifications, C-210, C-211 and C-209. 21 O You testified at one point that in the Rechtel 22 specifications there were two tests, is that correct? I 23 XR. IA!ARIN: Tvc standard tests you are referring 34 to t as If FR. PATON: (Resusing) ALDORe0e6 RSPORTWe4 CORePANY. lesC. 400 viseenA Avt. 9.W.. Wassassef006. 9,C. 30034 1800' 006 8984

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27 1 Q Two standard compaction tests, and if you didn't, 2 or if that doesn't sound right, please correct it. 3 A I don't recall whether the two tests given in each 4 of those specifications -- 5 Q .That is not what I asked you. 6 Were there two tests anywhere in Bechtel's 7 specifiestions ? 8 A Tes. 9 Q Do you recall wheths: in Specification C-210 there 10 were two tests? 11 A Yes. 12 O Were there? 13 A Yes. 14 0 'Jere there two tests in 3echtel Specification i 15 C-208? 16 A Yes. 17 0 Were there two tests in Bechtel Specification 18 C-211? 19 A I don't recall. 20 0 Were these specifications, did they address soils 21 vo'rk? 22 A Would you clarify that question? 23 0 Yes. Let's start with the first numerically 24 specification, C-208. It was specifications for what? 25 A-Testing. T ^4 '. .\\ ^ ALDERsON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. s aoo viRaism Avs. s.w., wAsmwoTow. o.c. 2co24 82o2i ss4 234s e 3

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,,am,,,.,,,__,, IB f.Nb5a-n }... 3~ 1 0 7 hat? l 2 A Foils, concrete, steel. 3 Q It was for testing, and it was for testing more 4 than just soils? 5 A Yes. 6 0 2 hat was the specification C-210? What was that 7 for? What did that add:ess? 8 A Soils placement. 9 C Just soils? 10 A Tes, I believe so. 11 C All righ t. C-211, what did that address? 12 A Soils placement. 13 Q What was the dif f erence between C-210 and C-2117 14 A C-210 was soil placement ';y Canonie. It was a 15 subcontract for Canonie. C-211 was nere structural backfill 16 plac em ent. 17 C I don't understand the difference. You said C-210 18 was with respect to the-vork done by.Canonie? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Cenere11y what was that? Did they do work in the 21 pover hiock area? 22 A "' hey did some, yes. 23 C 7 hat other work by Canonie did C-210 apply to? 24 A It applied to the. cooling pond dikes. 25 C -Are you finished with your answer? '\\ ALDER $oN REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 400 vtRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

.*c ~ ' ..~.- .r. ,-.~5_- g.-._-- n.,a-c . e _.....m . * :.y=,, ...-x .m .s' NY. c. .cu. 29 1 A Yes. 2 C Did Eechtel use Epecification C-210 for the 3 placement of soils in the power block a:ea? \\ 4 A I'm not clear on the question. 5 0 You indicated that Specification C-210 applied to 6 soils placement. 7 A Yes. 8 0 You tell me that specification C-210 was a Bechtel 9 specification. 10 A Yes. 11 Q Did 3echtel use Specification C-210 for coils 12 placement? 13 A I aa having problems with the word " soils 14 placement." 15 0 They are your words. Bechtel -- Canonie did the 16 soils placement. Is that what you are saying? 17 A Where? 18 0 The power block area. 19 A Right. 20 0 Who else did any of it? ~ A Sechtel did part of it. 21 22 C Did Eechtel perfora QA on that soil placement in 23 the power block area? 24 A Yes. 25 0 Did they use Specifica tion 21-in perf orming that ~. ALDER $oN REPORTING COMPANY, INC. = 400 vtMGsNIA AVE. $.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 564-2345

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.. ".. y rw. ...,w. g,,.w t .e- ~ 1 quality assurance work? - 2 A Yes. 3 C The two standa.rd compaction tests you mentioned 4 bef ore were ASTP. D, is that correct? e 5 A Yes. 6 Q What does that stand for? 7 A ASTE is the American Society of Testing ?.a terials. 8 C Then you also said I believe D-1557. 9 A Yes. 10 C The other one els a Sechtel. Modified Proctor Test. 11 A Yes. 12 0 !s there a difference between the two? 13 A Yes. 14 Q What is the difference? 15 A With the 0-1557 you would obtain 56,000 foot 16 pounds, approximately 56,000 f oot pounds. With the Sechtel 17 Modified Proctor you would obtain 20,000 foot pounds. 18 C Using the ASTP. standard test with 56,000 foot 19 pounds would be more conservative than using the other test, 20 would it not? 21 A Yes. 22 Q In performing your function as a field quality 23 assurance encineer, do you know which of these tests was 24 used by Bechtel? -25 A Yes. l g ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 564-2345

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. w g. m... ~ :. w. 3,3 3..-- (=.3. .a s- . =%w ....n 31 1 Q Which one? 2 A They used both. 3 C As a field quality assurance engineer, did you ' consider tha t appropriate? e 5 A Yes. 6 0 What were the criteria that you used to determine 7 when one test was appropriate and when the other was 8 appropriate? 9 A They used the 20,000 foot pound method for 10 evaluating tests and they used the ASTF. D-1557 only for 11 information, which was very seldom. 12 C I'm sorry, I just don't understand your answer. I 13 as rure that.is my f ault. 14 You used Eechtel to evaluate tests. In 15 determining confor=ance with specifications, an I correct 16 that 3echtel used the 3echtal Zodified ?:octo: Test? 17 A Yes. 18 Q .What do you mean they used the other one for 19 infors ation? I'm not sure I understand that. 20 A They very seldom, maybe when they first started 21 ou't in the soils placement, they had run the 1557 test for 22 inf oraation. 23 C And you say they used it when they started out. 24 A As information. 25 C Did they stop using it after some period of time? N A'.DERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 564 2348

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don't recall them'using it, 1557, to evaluate 2 soils placement, only as inf or=ation.

3 Are ve still talking about this ti=eframe, '74, 4 *TS, and '761 a 5 C Yes. 6 A All right. 7 !R. PATONs Why don't we take five minutes' break. 8 (A brief recess was taken.) 9 BY ER. PATON: (Resuming) 10 Q Mr. Horn, I want to show you a document we have 11 dust identified as 2eposition Exhibit 1 and ask you to take 12 a lo ok a t pa g e s 11, 12, and 13, which follow this partial 13 sentence at the botto= of page 11. I am just going to read 14 th a t. Then I'= going to hand it to you. "The following is 15 a summary of the docu=entation regarding the confusion of 16 the compaction requirements for plant area fills" 17 Now, before I hand you this document, you 18 indicated that you have read this more than once, this 19 document. 20 A Tes. l 21 Q 1et me ask you to look at pages 11, 12, and 13, ~ 22 and when you have done that, I want to ask you a question. 23 Would you let me know when you have had a chance 24 to read those pages? 25 A Yes. \\ ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 400 VIRGINLA AVL S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2346

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52. PATON:

Starting at the bottom of page 11, 3 reading Items 1 through 10, which ends on page 13. 4 THE WITNESS : I'm through. 5 ,3! ER. PATON: (Resuming) 6 C When you read that document for the first time, 7 was that your first knowledge of this correspondence that 8 you have just read about? 9 A The question is too general. 10 Q Let me back up even more than that. 11 Do you agree that you have just read a document 12 that seems to reference some correspondence between Bechtel 13 employees? 14 A Yes. 15 Q What was your first knowledge of that 16 correspondence? I 17 A

here are quite a f ew letters in here.

They would 18 have been bef ore I saw them in this document, I believe, 4 19 most of them. 20 C You think you would have seen most of them before 21 th'ey were summarized in this document? Is that your ansver? 22 A Yes, I believe I have seen most of them before I i 23 have seen them in this document, that is correct. ~i 24 Q Do you know whether you have or not? E5 ER. ZAHARINs Wait a minute. I object unless he t l i \\ ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 i. ~ t _., _ _ _ _ _. _ _ _ _ _ _..__ _., +

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34 ( ?;.5 = 6 w .;:,_., m n f ' ~~ 1 is shown the particular le ter. You are civing so::teene 2 else 's summary. ! don't think that is a f air inquiry of any 4 3 witness. 4 IR. PATON: I am not cr'ess examining him on the

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6 !!. ZAEARINs. You are asking him if he knows when 7 you saw the letters, and you don't have those letters in 8 front of him. 9

53. PATON:

I am asking him when his first 10 knowledge of the subject was. 11 ER. ZAMARIN That is a different question. 12 !! ER. PATCN: (Resuming) 13 0 Can you answer that question? i 14 A 'Jould you repeat it again? 15 0 let me ask you this question. 16 Did you ever become aware of any confusion within 17 3echtel as to the proper compaction test to be'used? t 18 A Yes. 19 C When did you first become aware of that confusion? 20 A don't recall the year. ~ 21 C Vnat was your knowledge? What did you learn when 22you first learned of this? 23 A Would you repeat the question? 24 Q Let me just ask you, you don't understand the 25 question, is that correct? '\\ At.DtASON REPC,:' TING COMPANY, INC. 400 VIRGlktA. AVE. S.W., WASMNGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2M5

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5 read some. thing ? 6 Do you remember anything about your first 7 knowledge of this subject? 8 A No, I con't recall. 9 Q Yut you do know that you did know something about i 10 this subject before you saw that report. 11 A Yes. 12 C Sct you don't know what you knew. 13 A I don't recall what ny first encounter of this 14 problem was. 15 C Tell me whatever you do now about this subject, 16 about the confusion at Eachtel about the proper compaction-17 test te be used. 18 A "'h e telecen that I recall was a telecon between 19 Jon Hook and Rao, and that was because of the problem of 20 which test to use, whether to use the 1557 method or to use 21 the 3echtel ?.odified ?:octor which we had been using. 22 0 Do you have any idea what year that vas? 23 A No, '76 or '77. 24 Q !.et me ask you -- just a minute, please. Do you remember whether you gave Hr. Gallagher any 25 ) l \\ ALDERSON REPORTING COMP ANY. INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 2002C (2021564-2345

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(.}:.,.., 3 3 _ k {_ 11 0 , [f.$5=%w& - ~ 1 of the correspondence that isteferenced in pages through 2 13? l 3 EE. ZAEAE.I54 It would be the same objection of ) 4 not having the correspondence bef ore him, based upon -- D 5 .MR. PATON: All righ t. 6 EY ER. PA00Ns (3esuming) ~ 7 Q Eased upon the description, Mr. Gallagher's 8 description of this correspondence, do you remember whether 9 you gave Mr. Gallagher copies of this cc::espondence that is 10 in this dccument? 11 A ! don't recall giving specific items n here. 12 believe I gave hin some, possibly all. I don't recall. 13 C Do ycu remember coeting with Er. Gallagher in 14 0ctober of 19767 15 A I don't recall that da te or month. 16 0 Tell us what you know about the conf usion within 17 Sechtel about the proper compaction test to be used. 18 A Tron time to time within Consumers, within 19 3echtel, there were problems with the interpretation of the 20 specifications in the areas of which standard test to use. 21 Q Mr. norn, that is all you know about the confusion 22 within Eechtel -- 23

53. ZAEARIN Hold it.

24 ER. PATON: S trik e th a t. 25 BY MR. ?ATON4 (Resuming) ALDER $oN REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 400 VIRGIN 6A AVE. S.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (2021554-2345

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.* q d -s ip..'- 5.-- h - .,. y.:-~c .-a s'- %% c. 3a.. 37 1* 1 0 Is it your statement that you have just told me 2 about everything you know about the confusion within Bechtel J 3 about the proper compaction test to be used? 4 A No. 5 C Would you please do that. 6 ER. ZAEAPIN: I will object to the form as calling 7 for a narrative, and you tried to pin his down to a question t 8 but you are asking it in a narrative. That is an objection 9 to f o rm. 10

52. PATON:

Are you telling him not to answer? 11 ER. ZAEARIN4 No. I am just saying I don't think 12 you can pin his down on that answer because you are asking 13 him f or a narrative, and that is an objection to form. 14 MR. P ATON s Okay. 1 15 EY ER. PATON: (Resuming) 4 16 C Do you know any more about the confusion within 17 2echtel about the proper compaction test to be used that you 18 have already related? l 19 MR. ZAEABIN: The same objection. 20 3R. P ATON : This is really -- I don' t understand 21 this. l 22 ER. ZAEARIN: He may note the letters, he may know i You are asking him a very broad-ranging 23 there are telecons. 24 question. 25 MP. PATON: I will ask his what he knows and go. '\\ f ALDWISoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (2021554 2348

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13. PATOMs All right.

We vill be here a long Stima the way this is going. Ckay. 6 BY 53. PATON: (Resuming) 7 Q Mr. Forn, I am going to read Ites No. 1 on pages 8 11 and 12. Then I am going to hand you the document. In 9 f act, if we have another document -- oh, you have it. You 10 can follow along. 11 A Is this the same document? You can follow me along, and 12 Q To my knowledge., 13 when I get through reading that item to you, I am ;oin; to 14 ask you what your knowledge is of that item. As a matter of 15 f a ct, since this will be a deposition exhibit, I will not 16 read it. You can take time to read it again, if ycu want 17 to, and I as going to read it richt now. 18 ER. ZABARIN4 You are talking about the document 19 or So. 1? i l 20 YR. PATON: We are talking about page 11 of 21 Deposition Exhibit No.1. ~ 22 ?.R. ZAHAR!Na You just want him to read No. 1 for 23 right now. 24 %R. PATON: No. 1. That is on pages 11 and 12. 25 RY ER. PATON: (Essuming) ~ ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC 400 VIRGNA AVE S.W., WASMmGTON. O.C. 20024 (202) S84 23a6

~ Y.', _.,; R. E .&- 5.]L"Qq.',~=...-.K. 7;i.r... ' ;<g.i g.a; E-;~it-- ...x --e n. . % v.. .v-39 1 1 7 You have read that, Mr. Horn? 2 A Yes. 3 C What do you understand it to say? 4 ER. ZAHARIN: The document speaks for itself, but 5 go ahead. That is an objection. 6 If you esn answer it, go ahead. 7 THE WITNESSs ! don't understand.the question. 8 3Y ER. PATON: (Resuming) 9 0 You don't understand my question? My question was 10 what do you understand that to say? 11 A That is correct. 12 Q Do you see Item No. 1 on pages 11 and 12? 13 A Yes. 14 C Did you read Item No. 1 on pages 11 and 12? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Do you und.erstands Ites No. 1 on pages 11 and 12? 17 A Yes. 18 Q What do you understand it to say? 19 A Eubcontracts was addressing field engineering on 20 their concern on the soils and the backfill for the planter 21 fi11 and hers to be compacted to 95 percent compaction and j 22 received four roller passes with the 50 ton rubber tire 23 roller. 24 C That is what you understand No. 1 sa ys ? 25 A Yes. 'N ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 400 VIRGINtA AVE. S.W., WASMtNGToN. D.C. 20024 (2021554 2345

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53. ZA3ARINs I will object to the form of the 8 question.

Are you asking is No. 1, whether something is an 9 appropriate test? 10 EY HR. P A"'ON 4 ( F.e suming ) 11 Q I willk start again, ask the same question. 12 Whatever the question is, I will start again. 13 You just gave me an answer. Now I want te be surt-14 I on derstand that an swe r. 15 What I attempted to ask you is which of the two 16 tests does h o. 1 tell you is appropriate? 17 A At the time it told me Rechtel Zodified Proctor. 18 Q !s tha the test you have stated would require a 19 test involving 20,000 foot pounds? 20 A Yes. 21 Q I read the words fodified Proctor %ethod, and then ~ 22 at the top of page 12, AST5 1557, F.ethod D, and I thought I 23 understood you to say before that that involved the test 24 th at used 56,000 f oot pounds. An I incorrect? 25 A Would you restate the question? \\ ~ ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY, INC. =. 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W WASHINGTON. o.C. 20024 (2021864 2345 w y

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42 pf;L O ~. s .. 1, :.;.- hh I ~" e..- 1 C Okay. I am reading the words at the ottom of 2 page 11 and the top of page 12, quote, Modified Proctor 3 Method (AST! 15 57, M e th od D ), unquote. Do those words tell j 4 you whether the test should involve 56,000 foot pounds or 5 20,000 foot pounds? i 6 A Those words tell me that it was a modified test 7 sethod to the 1557 Method D. 8 Q Can you answer my question? 9 MR. ZAHARIN: I think he did. 10 MR. PATON: I as asking you whether that tells you I livnether it is 56,000 foot pounds or 20,000 foot pounds. If 12 it doesn't tell you, that is fine. 13 THE WITNIssa I believe I answered it previously. 14 It would be 20,000 foot pounds. 15 R! HR. PATONa (Resuming) 16 C Describe for me which of these two tests it is 17 that involves 56,000 foot pounds. 18 ER. ZAHAR!Ns Which of which two? 19 5R. PATON: He previously testified that there 20 we re two - 21 HR. IAMARIN: Are you out of number one? 22 3R. PATONs We are abandoning number one. We are 23 talking in general terss. You told me before there were two 24 tests. l l 25 THE ~4ITNISS: Yes. l l l \\ ALDERSON REPORT:NG COMPANY, MC, s 400 VIRGmeA AVE. S.W., WASMmGToN D.C. 20024 (2021584 2346

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H M.~'m 1 1 You were, at that size', a Midland fieed quali y 1 2 assurance engineer, right? 3 A Eight. 4 C Did that interest you?,Did you know there was any 5 conf usion at the time? 6 A I don't believe at that time, no. 7 C so? 8 A Not on th e percent compaction. 9 0 Within your area of responsibility at the time, 10 should you have been aware that there had been any conf usion 11 in this area? i 12 A Vould you restate the question? You I now what your responsibilities were at the 13 0 t 14 time, is that correct? 15 A Yes. 16 C Consie.oring those responsibilities, do you think 17 you should have become aware of any confusion in an area 18 lik e this ? 19 A If there would have been confusion in that area I 20 would hope to have. Bechtel didn't always tell se when 21 there was confusion in these letters and things like that. 22 C Should Bechtel have told you if there was any i l 23 confusion in an area like that? 24 A I would have hoped that they would have. Hr. Forn, I appreciate that. But what I as 25 C ALoansoN neronTwo cowANY. me. 400 vinomia Ave. s.w.. wAsMWoTON. 0.c. 20024 (2021664-2346

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!R. PATON:

Do you understand what I mean by that? 11 THE 2!TNESS: No. 12 3Y MP. PATONs (Resuming) 13 C You don't understand that? 14 A 'l o. 15 0

2. Forn, you work for Consumers in this period of 16 time we're talking about?

17 A Yes. 18 C And you were a field quality assurance engineer? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Did you have any responsibility to observe ~ 21 Eechtel's work on this site? h 22 A Yes. 23 Q uithin that area of responsibility -- strike that. 24 Would your knowledge of any confusion that existed 25 on Iechtel's part on compaction requirements come within i i N I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. i 400 VIRGelA AVt. 8.W WASHWGTON. 0.C. 20024 (202) 964 2348 + - - -

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'- Q . e ) ',' ,,.4 ,tM, 1 that field of responsibility ?'- ~ - 2 A Would you repeat the quest on? 3 Q Lat me ask you -- you don't understand the l 4 question as I stated it? !s that. correct? 5 A Yes. i 6 C You do understand it, or you don't? 7 A Yes, I don't understand it. 8 C Did you have any responsibility to know whethe: 4 9 3echtel was complying with compaction requirements? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Would you have been interested to know, within 12 your p:cf essional responsibilities, whether or not there was 13 any confusion on Eechtel's part as to what those compaction 1 i 14 requirements were? f l I 15 A Yes. t 16 C Dit. you know, in 1974, that there was any 1 17 conf usion on Bechtel's part as to compaction requirements? I 18 A Yes. a 19 0 What did you do about it? i l 20 A The compaction requirement was as stated in number 21 on'e. When I was out on the dike -- I believe it was the a 22 dike -- the question care up whether four roller passes was 23 required and in addition to meet the 95 percent compaction. t 24 I contacted the -- I believe I contacted the CC 25 man at the time and I questioned him on,it. He contacted l 1 ALDERSON REPORTmG COMPANY. WC. 400 VIROWWA Avt. S.W.. WASHINGTON. O.C. 20024 (202190d.2346 -

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Yes. 14 Q The isst ites 1 see here, I notice it was October, 151977 let se ask you this. When was the confusion 16 clarified ? i, 17 A On ites nusber one it was clarified that year. 18 Q

as there further confusion?

19 A Based on this document? Yes. 20 0 What was that confusion? 21 A They are enumerated here. 4 22 Q, I as entitled to ask you questiens, sir. 23 What was the future confusion? 24 MR. ZAMARIN: With regard to what? 25 %R. PATON: He's already answered there was \\ ALDER $oN REPCRTING COMPANY, INC. 400 VIRetNIA AVE. S.W WASMINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) $64 2348

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53. IA!ARIN:

We have a record that we a:e 4 concerned.with. 5 MR. PATOFs Okay. 6 MR. ZAMARIN: Can you recall specifically what 7 that refers to this document? 8 MR. PATOKs Mr. Zamarin, I don't think you should 9 he a sking your witness questions. 10 MR. ZAHARIN: I'll ask him one if vant to. 11

33. PAT 05:

You are going tc interrupt me and

2 st art interrogating your own witness?

I think that is 13 im pr oper. 14 Could the witness please see the document that 15 I' v a handed to him? If you are done with it I will take it 16 back. 17 MR. IAEARIN: If you are asking him to refer to it 181n answering your question then he can see it. If you are 19 asking for his recollection then he has no need to see it. J 'D "R. PATON: He has had it for fifteen minutes il bef ore you took it out of his hand. 22 ER. ZAHARINs Do you have a question pending? 23 ER. P ATON s By this time I have no idea. Could I 24 have the document back? 25 MR. ZAHARIN: Sure. N AL.DERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVS, S.W., WASHINGTON. 0.C. 20024 (2021 SS4 2345

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~' "V*- 4 50 4 1 your company, Consumers, to determine what it said about th e 2 proper compaction test to be used at Midland? 3 A Yes. 4 C When did you do that? i 5 A ,197u was the earliest. } 6 Q Do you recall what it said? You have r.ferenced two 7 5R. IAEARIN: What is it? e 8 things. j 9 ER. PATON: I as asking about the PSAR. Tell se 10 what the ISAR said and tell me what the FSAR said, if you 1 11 reca11. In 197u I doubt if there was any PSAR. i 12 THE %!TNIESa I don't recall in the PSA3 13 requirements for the percent compaction. 14 SY !R. PATON: (Resusing) 15 0 I want to clarify. You don't recall. I think you i 16 have just stated that you looked. Is that correct? 17 A That is rorrect. i 18 Q Is it your testimony that you could not find any? 19 ?.R. ZAEARIN:. He said he could not recall. 4 5 20 MR. PATON: I'm asking him. 1 ~ 21 !! !R. PATON: (Resuming) 22 C Are you saying you don't remember whether you 23 found any? Or do you resember that you had not found any? 24 A I don't remember that I found any. 25 0 You don't remember that you found any. Oo you \\ ALDERSON REPORTW8G COR4PANY. W8C. 400 VWic.efiA AVE. S.W., WASMW8870N. C.C. 20024 12023 Esa.23a0 T r_

s.. s --. _ f=<*n%ter1._ 3v.- h W ae g %.. li .'ig _ .Mj'..et;~.,g,.: p ~ -~ ~ ' * ' ~ - .] Y' k$ h *j,WY, '-. -w c m -. c ., -.. - -,,.,,,,.,m. g ( .%... r., m~.~.....,,_, ,..y ~ Q:. _. _ \\- m. _. ;% f% :nkn..& - a ~' '~ l 1 recall whether the PSAR refers to the Dames an ..oore Peport? 2 ER. ZA!ARIN: I will object to the form cf the i - 3 question where you say ref erenced. '4111 you tell us what 4 you mean? 5 BY MP. PATON: (Besuming) 4 6 C Do you know what I mean when I say a document is 7 referenced by the P5 AR? Do you know what that question i 8 neans? i 9 The question was raised by your lawyer. 10 A I believe I understand what that means. L 11 ER. IAEA?IN4 Then ! cbject unless ycu ask hio 4 12 wh at his understanding is, so that we know the f rare of 13 reference f or his answer. 14 BY MB. PATCNs (Resuming) 15 C Please explain whst you 2ean by referenced by th e i 16 PS AR. 17 A Within the body of the section it may state Dames 18 and Moore Report, or in the back of a section it may have i 19 references that were used in preparing that document. I 20 Q Fine. Do you know whether in f act the PSAR 21 ref erenced ? Danes and Focre Report entitled, quote, ~ b 22 Foundation Investigation and Preliminary Ixploration f or 23 Borrow Enterials, unquote? 24 A I don't recall whether it did. 25 C You don't recall. So if you don't recall reading, 'g atoons0N RePORTwo C0hAPANv, psC. des viponaA Avs. s.w.. wasweeToN. o.C. ases4 < asanas ases

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' C ._ 7 - - 1 site ? 2 A Could you give me a time frase? 3 C I said ultisate. Did they ever figure it out? 4 A Yes. 5 C When did they figure it out? 6 A Af ter the settlement of the DG building. 7 0 What was that ultimate disposition or resolution? 8 A It would be to use Method D 1557. l 9 0 How sany foot pounds does that involve? 10 A 56,000 foot pounds. 11 0 Who sade that decision? 12 A I as not aware of who made tha t decision. 13 C Let se show you iten number five on page 12 that 14 you have previously read and ask you to review that again. i 15 Have you seen that, sir? 16 Yes, I have read that. 17 Q I want to read you this sentence. 18 Quote, Geotech reiterates the specification 19 requirement of 95 percent of ASTM 1557 Method D, unquote. 20 And this was in 197u. to you agree? 4 t I 21 A Ies. That is what the record says. l r 22 0 Do you understand that to be 56,000 foot pounds, 23 or 20,0C0 foot pounds? 24 A As stated there it would be 56,000 foot pounds. 25 0 And that is in 197a? 1 ALDERSON 99PORTwee COMPANY sec. 400 Vimee886A AVE. S.W. WAsNwecTow. 0.C. 20024 (2021064 2380 s

Q ' ~ ~-,}.).y[Q} N .iiG,,* hq^?L' ;- _-- . q.p-j- ;. ~ sn >-~ ,- m G". 4... > 54 1 A Yes. 2 C I thoucht I understood you to say previously that 31t was Pechtel's position that 20,000 foot pounds was the 4 appropriate test in 197s. 5 A .I don't believe you asked and I don't believe I 6 stated that. 7 C With respect to the appropriate test for 8 compaction, we have been talking about two tests. Was there 9 any confusion on Pechtel's part about which test was 10 appropriate in 19747 11 A I stated that I could not recall that. 3ased on 12 nuster five there, it appears there was. w 13 Q Oon't you think the knowledge of whether or not 14 there was any conf usion in 1974 was within your knowledge -- 15 your knowledge of that was within the scope of your 16 tesponsibilities in 197a? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Did you know about that confusion in 197u7 19 A I could not recall that. 20 0 You don't know? 21 IR. IAEARIN: He says he can't recall. 22 MR. P AION : Ycu.iust don't recall? 23 THE WITNESS: I don't recall at this time. 24 !Y $3. PATCNs ( Resuming ) 25 C Oid Iechtel follow a practice in 1974, to your ALOG# SON 95PORTWe6 COMPANY, pfC. 400 VWHIpMA Avt. S.W., WASNessGTON. 0.C. 20024 13031 IGo 33e6 d

\\ h$h! 5 Y. - - ~ TA..;m_e, y~ h._ %k3 , ~ v., W,QQ;;yg ./==. ~ 'I' ., - i ' Ws.gu-: w m r..<? ; m a :,.. ': ?:G% M. r:..v. ~ m_.:-m w.. u 3 ~ ~ lhL e_.,.t;; y..e ..m,b,,., g. ~W ~~ 'M$Q.-Qm.6 a P.. - % - 4.s - .y .w ' 1 knos' ledge, of keeping you fully informed on a su ject like s i 2 thid ? '\\ x 2 s .s 3 A. 'iould you repeat the question? ss w 4 Q Did Eechtel f ollow a practice in 197u of keeping 5 rou informes of a subject like the one we are discussion, to 6 your knowledge? 7 'A Could you repeat that once acre? 8 MR.,PATON: Would the reporter read that back, N 9 pleasi? 10 (The ;ending question was read by the reporter.) 3 11 A To the best of my knowledge, they did. 12 - Q,_ In 1974, did you e ve r -- st rik e th a t. 13 Have you ever complained to anyone within 14 Consumers or Bechtel that Rechtel was not providing you the J 151nformstion' tha't' you needed to perform your duties? x 16 A .Could you repea t that once more? 17 '. MR.s?AION: Would the reporter please read the \\ 18 question? 19 (The pending question was read by the reporter.) 20 A' That is too. general a question. .v 21 Q 1et ie,ask you this. Do you understand the 22 question? 23 A Yes. 24 Q [t'istocgeneralmeaningit covers too many years? j s 25 A Yes. .s ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. AJO VIRGINIA AVE. $.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (2021554-2345 a

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~ 07iv,.. Zt': x-1 SY MP. PATON: ( ?.esumin g ) 2 Q Tell us the events that caused you to make this 3 complaint. What led up to the complaint? 4 A Bechtel had been working on a report of the 5 background -- the backup -- information for the 6 qualification of equipment that was to be used at the 7 Eidland site. 8 Gene Gallagher had asked several times on getting ~ 9 that document to the site to have at the site a reference 4 10 and it was in pursuing his request and my own that I 11 contacted Sherif Afifi to expedite getting that document to 12 th e field. 13 Q My question was to tell us the background or the 14 f acts that led up to your complaint, and that is your answer? 15 A Yes. 16 C You contacted Er. Afifi and asked him to get the 17 document to the site. Is that correct? 18 A Yes. 19 Q That is what caused you to make a complaint about 20 not getting enough information? ~ '21 A Yes. 22 Q Did Er. Afifi send it to the site? 23 A Yes. 24 C When. 25 A I don't recall the time. G t i Al.DERsON REPoRTWG OOMPANY. WC. 4o0 vmoW A Avt. s.w., wAsMWGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2346

~ -' s ~:.y. ..~ ..-.:.1.-. r-. mc .% ;.g-g p;a./ ;;- n 3..-- . n.,--x...c - :.:2 z-q _';7~: --3.y. =- -.. ~--{._g-Q &! ,.e.* m v.. .:.,. 3 4 S8 1 C We startad this by my asking you whether there -- 2 strike that. You stated that you made a complaint to 3 someone that you weren't getting informatica you thought you 4 needed from Bechtel. Is that correct? 5 A Yes. 6 0 Who did you complain to? 7 A Sherif Afifi. to abandon this subject for just 8 Q Er. Horn, I want 9 a second and then get back to it. But I want to ask you 10 something else first to see how long this interrogation vill 11 1a st. 12 Were there any co=;1aint? Did you make any 13 complaints to anyone in the year 1980 about not getting 14 information f rom Bechtel in a manner that you thought 15 appropriate f or you to perf cra your duties? 16 A Not that I recall. I'm trying to remember if that 17 fell into 1979, when I talked to Sherif, or whether it fell 181s to '80. I don't recall, but it was one year or the other. 19 Q What was the lapse of time? I believe you 20 indicated you asked Bechtel or Er. Afifi f or this report and ~ 21 pethaps you had to go back and ask him again. Is that 22 correct? 23 A No, ! did not ask Sherif. 24 Q You asked somebody else? 25 A Yes. i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE. 5.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2348 -

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Who did you ask the first time? 4 A The first time was Sherif. 5 C Who did you ask the second time? ~ 6 A Jim Vanzeck. 7 C How much time elapsed between the first request 8 and the second request? 9 A Approximately a month. I don't recall. 10 0 I gather -- is it that month that you felt was a 1111ttle longer than it should have been? That you should 12 have had the information before the month was out? Is that 13 fair? 14 A With th's words that Sherif told me, yes. I would 15 have expected to have been received a t the site within that 16 month. 17 C What did he tell you? 18 A In summary, he told me that.they were working on 19 1t and it should be out soon. ~ 20 C You talked to Sherif first. Is that correct? 21 A On the complaint. Yes. 22 C Was it the type of information you thought you 23 should have had before you called Mr. Afifi the first time? 1 24 A Yes. 25 C Md Sechtel always provide you information that 'N 'As.nensou neronTWo COMPANY, WC. m. 400 vmOWlA AVE. S.W., WASHWGToN, D.C. 20024 (202) SS4 2M6

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.4 ;;- .gn l inordinate amount of time to get even basic information l t l 2 proceedino this way. Perhaps it is permissible to proceed i 3 this way, but ! as af raid it is going to take a long time. 4 MR. ZA5ARIN: I think the appropriate fornat is t He is 5 for you t.o ask a question and for him to answer it. 6 not supposed to guess at what your next question is going to ~ 7 be. So if you will ask, he vill answer them. And that is 8 what ha is doina. 9 ?.R. PATON: Does that mean when I ask him if 10 somebody has a name and he ansvers yes. 11 ER. ZAMA3!Ns That is right. 12 NE. PATON: All right, that is the way we are 13 going to proceed. I'n sorry, sir, but I've f orgotten the 14 gentleman's name. What was his name? 15 THE WITNESS: I didn't give you his name. 16 3Y P.R. PATON: (Resuming) l 17 Q I will see if I can think of the next question. 18 What is that person's name? h i 19 A Jerry-Corley. 20 Q Jerry? 21 A Corley. 22 C Could you spell the last name? z i 23 A C-o-r-1-e-y. 24 0 Would you tell se his title again,~ please? 25 A I believe it was Cun11ty Assurance Superintendent. -s ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 400 VIRGtNIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (2021064 2346 .o

..er., e . a pgcj.gH O-.p in- .,_., -m- -. -3..n.;;;-{g:riy. -.,--.=3 .~ - ~~.y..g ...~ .,,s,. ~ r s... a. %^% e. u., 58 1 0 Did he have responsibility -- he had supervisory i 2 :esponsibility as is: as you a:e concerned? He was your 4 3 superior? 4 A Yes. 5 0 .He was your superior with regard to CA as it 6 : elated to solis? 7 A Tes. 8 Q Did you ever discuss with him the status of the QA 9 program and implementation on the site during that 10 three-year period? 11 A Yes. 12 0 Oid you ever advise him that there was a lack of 13 compliance with CA of their program or implementation during 14 that three-year period? 15 A Tes. a 16 0 What, in your opinion, during that three-year t 17 period was the most serious violation of CA implementation? 18 A The missing rebar problem. 19 Q Was that within your scone of responsibility? 20 A Yes. i 21 Q In that three-year period, in your opinion what 22 was the most serious deficiency with respect to compliance 23 with soils O A? 24 A Could you repeat the question again? 25 (The pending question was read by the reporter.) t '\\ ALoER$oN REPORTWG CTPANY. WC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON O.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

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' 22 .. c .]'~}'-3:.}$ ' p g - Q k ; 3 - ; ~ j '- ... % J.r?-5 1 Q -q~5 75..:_-- E- ,s g "~r . :.,,,5., ,, a. - ' - 70 1 Q What fid they determine it to be? ) 2 A Insufficiently compacted material. 3 0 Do you know when they determined that? 4 A I don't recall. No. 5 Q Do you have an opinion as to -- well, do you agree ~ 6 with that conclusion that insufficient compaction is the 7 cause of the soils problem at %idland? 8 A Yes. 9 0 You do. Do you have an opinion as to whether or to net quality assurance deficiencies that you have reported 11 contributed to the insuf ficient compaction? 12 A I as not sure, again, as to the time frame. We 13 vere talking about up to '77. ! am not sure whether the 14 NC?s that ! filed at th a t time and the AFRs that I filed at 15 th at time relate to soil problems that we have had or have 16 now. 17 Q I want to ask you to look at items number 13 and 18 14 on page 19 of Deposition Exhibit Nunber 1, then I want to 19 ask you if that refreshes your recollection in any way. 20 The question is whether or not, having reviewed 21 th at information, this assists you in answering my previous 22 question tha t during the period 1972, 1975, and 1976 quality 4 23 assurance deficiencies contributed to the insuf ficient 24 compaction that you say Consumers has concluded as the cause 25 cf the soils problem? '\\ As.oSRsON REPO4DNG CCMPANY. INC. e, 400 VIRGINIA AVL S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) S$4 2346

i c. .....swa : <,,.. yy,tk ~* ~ ., ~: M*C"m'Wy,Q::g n :s,,,$ %d m ?. e % ;}, L:.1:. _ _ w. .~. w -v: -,n-.a i C s c..~..,... ,.m.__,.,,_,.,,.....w..,,, g w;%. m,,> .. y.... ; . - g. ,+ ,w,. 4.. . f ~. - - - - - - g.;w 1 ME. ZAHARIN: If I may, that really vann't your i 2 question -- whether it reported quality assurance 3 deficiencies. ! think you changed gears on us a little bit. 4 EY IR. PATON: (Besuming) 5 Q Have you reviewed items 13 and lu on page 19 af 6 the Deposition Exhibit Number 17 7 A Yes. 8 Q Having reviewed that, do you have an opinion as to 9 whether quality assurance deficiencies at the site in the i 10 years 1974, 1975 and 1976 contributed to the insufficient 11 compaction? 12 MR. ZAHARIN: I object to the form of the 4 13 question. You may answer. i 14 THE '4!TNI55: Exsaples that are given here are not 15 th a t time period. I cannot state, without looking or 16 without seeing what those findings were at that time. 17 BY ES. PATON: (Resuming) Mr. Horn, I want to show you part 18 Q I show you a 19 of NBC Deposition Exhibit 2 for identification as of today's t 20 da te, October 21, 1980. 21 (The document referred to was 2 22 marked Deposition Exhibit 23 No. 2 for identification.) 1 24 BY HE. PATON: (Resuming) 25 Q I want to show you part of what I have marked as 's ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. u 800 VIRGINIA Avt. 5.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2346

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' ' $f. '... g + -^;;ga '.'a M 2 h 9: , w n.X.. I -i.i-Q { -{' 3..-- [=. ~.,.. ~ if '~ - l r. a; Tu 1 C How nany items of nen-confernance are in that 2 repert? 3 A It apoears that there are three closed findings i 4and three open findings. 5 C Can you tell se what those are -- the three open 6 findings? 1 7 A. The first finding is a non-conformance against the 8 specification C-210. The same f or finding nusber 2. The 9 third finding is non-conforming against specification C-211. 10 C What was the difference between finding number 1 4 11 and nuater 2, since they both apparently reported 1 12 non-confornance with C-210. i 1 13 A Offhand, I can't see the difference between the i 14 two because they both contain moisture deficiencies and 15 compaction deficiencies in both findings. j 16 C How nany examples of moisture deficiencies and 17 compaction deficiencies do you report under finding nunber 1 18 and you can approximate it? 19 A Tour on moisture, approximately, and density, 20 approximately two. 21 C Could I see the report just a second? l 22 I show you a sheet at the bottom of the page that 23 says Sheet five of twelve. What does that inf ormation relate 24 to ? Tell se what is on that page. 25 A They are examples of deficiencies against-i \\ ' ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 20024 62021 584 2346 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W.. WASHINGTON. O.C.

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2 C What kind of deficiencies? 3 A Moisture content deficiencies and compaction 4 deficiencies. 5 Q You used the expression density before. Ooes that 6 sean the same th* Density and compaction? You used them 71n the same sense. 4 8 A Yes. 9 Q Is that an open ites or a closed item? 10 A It is a closed item. 11 Q Mov =any examples of each do you have? i 12 A Compaction, 22. 13 Q ! notice one of those is marked north plant dik e. 14 My question is what is the location of the other ones? 15 A vouldn't kncv that without the report itself. 1 16 Structural back fill vould be within the plant area. i 17 wouldn 't know other than that. i ~ 18 C Structural back fill. Does that expression mean i 19 to you that it any involve sand or clay, or is there no 4 20 connection between those two? The expression structural j 21 back fill. Does that connote to you either sand or clay? l 1 I I~ 22 M3. ZAMARI3a As it appears here on sheet five or i 23 tw elv e ? i 24 HR. PATONs Right. 25 THE WITNISS: No. 1 l N ALDERSoN REPoRTWG COMPANY, WC. 400 VWH3 mea AVE. S.W., WASHm4 ton. O C. 20024 (202i 954 2344

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79 .....~.-:.cm-,.-m..m%,,,,,._,,,,.,,.,,.,,,, kr.w.. -h;c'1w ~ ~- '.r.., ;,. ~~~2~;., .Q'!, 1 compacted satorial. McVeveri-I 'do not kncv if te actual 2 locstiens are locations where we have found insuf ficiently 3 compacted back fill. SY .R. PATON: (Resuming) 9 4 5 C ,As I cerrect that you do not have an opinion.- 4you do not have an opinion as to whether the f 7 non-conformances reflected by audit report nuster F-7732 8 contributed to what Consumers now feels is insufficient 9 compaction at the site? 10 A Yes. That is correct. 11 Q That is correct? You don't. 12 to the result of the report of the test indicate 13 to you insuf ficient compaction ? 14 A Yes. 15 0 Explain that. How do you arrive at that 16 conclusion? 17 A The specification requirement at the time these 18 vere taken was 80 percent of relative density cnd the tests, 19as indicated in this report, are below that requirement. i 20 C What is the date of the first test repcet on that 21 report? 22 A 5/25/74 l 23 Q At that time, you were a field quality assurance 24 engineert 25 A Yes. i g ALOGASON REPORTING COMPANv, WeC. 400 VineselA AVE. 8.W., WASHINGTON. O.C. 20004 (2001964 2346 0,

' ' *pc %.1 T, 6ac6 2 >N M ,s,- m. 4-G /,,"J1..r';;.3., .] " ~~.} ,y f ,. i w. %w a..,u . f 8C 1 C !.esponsibi for soils? 2 A Yes. I 3 C When was your first knowledge -- did you become 4 aware of these non-compliances during 197s? 5 A ,1o. 1 j 4 C Eut some of the tests were taken in 19747 i 1 7 A fes. i 8 C Vouldn't knowledge of the outcome of those tests 9 he within the scope of your job as a field quality assurance j 10 engineer? 11 A Yes. 12 Q can you explain why you were not aware of the i 13 results of some of these tests? 14 A I did not review all records. I performed audits 15 on work and' did walk-through surveillances on work. l 14 C Did the fact that you did not discover these l 17 aon-conformances indicate to you the CF. progras or the 181splementation was deficient in any way, discovered in 197k1 ) 19 A No. l 20 Q I as not sure I understand. Do you mean you have 21 a deficioney and it is within the scope of your esployment 1 22 and you are a OA san and you are the soils Q A san and you 23 don't have any knowledge and that is okay under the QA t } 24 yrogrant That does not indicate any probles within the GA i i 5 program? k S A4. DOR $0N AGPoeTING COMPAsfv. INC. i .s 400 vimenesa Ave. S.W,. Wastuostfees, g.C. 30084 ISOBf 908 3388

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53. PA;0N:

Yes. 1 4 THE WITNESSa No, because we didn't look at all 5 work going on. 6 SY NE. PATON: (Resusing) 7 C Consusers did not know about these non-conf orsance 8 questions in 1974, is that :icht? 9 A Yes. 10 0 Did Bechte17 11 A I en not aware that they were. No. i I 12 C !s it cor:ect -,did 0.5. Testing have this 13 info: nation in 19747 14 MR. :A!ABIN: Which information? 15 MS. PA;0Ns The test results we have been talking 18 ab ou t. 17 THE W!TNESSs Yes. 18 BY ER. PATONs (Resusing) 19 C And nobody else knew about it? Nobody else knew i 20 about the test results? 21 A No, that is not co: rect. 22 C Who did? 23 A techtel knew about the test results. i l 24 C In 19747 25 A Test results, not these findings. Fight. s ALosas0w napontwo c0WANY WC. l 400 Vl#0##A Avt. S.W., WASMWSTON. D.C. 20024 I303) 964 2346

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.'#^' %v - :,,, s., 82 i 1 Q 3echtel, in 1974, they knew the test results, but 2 they didn't know that they were not in conformance. Strike 3 th a t. They didn 't know that the tests did not conform -- 4 that they were non-conformance tests ? ] 5 .!R. ZAHARIN: Could you repeat that back? ~ I 8 (The pending question was read by the reporter.) i 7 !!. PATONs We will strike all of that and begin j i 8again. 9 BY MR. PATON: (Resusing ) I 10 Q U.S. Testing had the test results? i 11 A Yes. 12 C U.S. Testing was n'ot aware that the test results j 13 did not conform to the standard? 14 A The question is too general. There are a lot of 15exaspies in there of different type problems. 18 The fact that the densities were not set. I as i i 1 17 sure that they were aware of that. l 18 Q U. S. Testing? j 19 A Yes. 1 20 Q Was ?echtel aware of it? i 21 A Yes. i i 3 22 Q Vere you aware of it? 3 A Not that I can recall. No. 24 C You think Bechtel was aware of it? 3 A Yes. i t t i \\ ALDERSON REPORTwee C0hePANY, NoC. , 400 Ven0 INIA AVE. S.W.. WA888880 TON. D.C. 20034 13031984 3346

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~ ~ ' -' ~ 4 "~"a r...,w &u i 1 performed -- the rework was performed. That is why we'had i 2 examples of still having non-conforming material. 3 C As part of a CA program in 3echtel's quality 4 assurance, shouldn 't that information have been reviewed in 5197 a ? 6 A Would you repeat the question again? 7 Q ! will strike the question and try at it another 8vay. If Pechtel had properly implemented a CA program, 9 wouldn't they have revealed this information in 19747 10 A I believe so. t i 11 C Wasn't it part of your job to oversee or check on 12 or look at or observe or judge 3echtel's CA program? 13 A Yes. 14 0 Why didn't you uncover this deficiency, then? 15 A

did detect a deficiency as stated in here.

l 16 0 You detected it when? 17 A Prior to 11/4/77. 18 0 11/u/77. Prior to? How much prior to? 19 A During that audit report. 20 C That doesn't help me. A month before? Cr two I 21 aonths tefore ? 22 A Cctober 3 through the 7th. 23 C Cf '77? 24 A Right. 25 C Vasn't that toO late? i ALDERSON REPORTWO C044PANY, INC. ) 400 VIROMIA AVE. 8.W., WA8wNOTON, D.C. 20024 i2021064 2346

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33. ZAMARTNa I have to object.

Too late for 1 4 4what? ~ hat is objectionable as to fors. l 5 .53. PATON He is a CA man. He is a responsible 6 Q A =an. 1 7 All right, within your area of expertise. CA I an 8 talking about. Your QA responsibilities, et cetera. 9 BY MR. PATON4 (resuming) l t 10 0 You discover, in 1977, a probles. It involves I 11 fill material placed in 197a. Do you consider your u 12 discovery of that problem timely? 13 A No. 14 C Why didn't you discover it tisely? l l 15 A Depending on the scope of the audits, we might i 16 look at a certain phase of construction testing and audit 17 th a t and then another audit aight pick up on another portion i i 18 of testing or placement. That is why.it any not be timely. 19 0 I understand your question to be that a CA audit 20 doesn't check 100 percent of all the items you want to check 21 on. It checks on a select group, and in this case the 22 probles didn 't happen to fit in -- it just didn't happen to 23 f all within the select group. That is the question. 24 ER. IANARIN: That is the question, is that 25right? Is that what you are saying? 4 I N ALDER 008f ASPoem888 C0aspasov, sec, 400 wipeanA AVE. 8.W., WAttemetfoes, D.C. 20004 taat:944 3348

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i e 2 THE W TNtfS Yes. 3 !! MR. PATONs (Resuming) 4 0

s that, in your opinion -- does that, in your 6 opinion, say anything adverse about your CA program or 6 implementation?

7 !R. ZAEAR Ns vill ob: lect to the form of the 8 question. 9 !R. PATONa I will let him answer it. 10 THE IITN!!ss Vould you repeat the question? 11 MS. :A!ARIN: Vould ycu read it back? 12 (*he pending question was read by the reporter.) 13 !Y MF. PATCNs (Resuming) 14 C Can you answer that? 15 A What do you mean by adverse? 10 C I'll ask ancther question. 17 In that instance -- in the instance you have 18 described where you did not discover a non-conformance until 19 1977 that occurred in 197a, does that demonstrate to you -- 201s that consistent with a good CA program? 21 A No. 22 C What 1s the problem with the progras? 23 A I would hope that the program would pick up the 34 probless as sney are occurring and not a year or two years 251 ster. n ALDOR90ef RSP0emsee C04sP488Y. WC. 400 vi40setA Avt. 8.W., Wasseneet088. D.C. 20094 tatti944 2340

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w-%- . ~,. x ft 1 0 Did you indicate there was some deficiency in a 2 progras that would permit that? 3 A Yes. 4 0 What is wrong with tha t progras? 5 A ,;he progsta should pick up problems that are 6 occurring at the time that they are happening. 7 0 Did that same situation indicate to you any 8 deficiency in the implementation of that progras? Or do you 9say that the problem is with the progran itself? 10 A Vould you repeat that again? 11 0 You understand the situation we are talking about 12 where there is a deficiency in '7u that was not discovered 13 until '77. Do you have that in sind? 14 'R. ZAHAE N The non-conformance in '7a? 15 !P. FA70Na The non-conformance in '7s. to THE WITNESS: Yes., 17 tY MP. PATON: (Resuming) 18 G fou have indicated that that reflects a deficiency 191n the C A program. 30 A Yes. 21 0 asked you what deficiency, and : understood your 22 answer to be that the program should pick it up. 23 A Yes. 24 0 I knew that. Again, I's not trying to to funny, M but I knew when the progras didn't pick it up, I know the 9 Assento4 percatmos conspANY mec. ace vmotNea Avt. S.W.. Wateme6 TON. 0.c. 30034 1303i SM.3Me

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33. PATON:

Fine, a good question. What should 10 have been done that wasn't done? 11 MR. IAMARIN: If anything, in your opinion? 12 THE WITNESS: Hore actual following of the work 13 going on in the field. 14 3Y ER. PATON: (Resuming) 15 C Are we talkinc about Sechtel program or Consuners' 16 program? ' 17 A Bechtoi program. 'When you said Consumers or 18 Bechtel, did you mean the actual work performed by one of .q. 19 those organizations, or the p cgram? \\ 20 Q 1et me back up to another question. You indicated. 21 th'ere was some ;:5blem vish the program. Were you talking ) s s. 22 about Bechtel's. program or Consumers' progra m ? i 23 A I was talking Consumers' program. s w 24 QN I want' to ask you again what was wrone vith 1 I 25 Consumers' program? -)Why didn t it' pick up this deficiency? \\ w e n FT - s. _\\ s s x ALDERSON REPORT.NG COMPANY, INC. 400 VIRGEs AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (2021554 2345 g s A D\\,y ms s ].W l~ + - - -

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'h a t was that person's name ?

n 15 MR. IAEAEIN: Excuse me. When you say this 16 review, he is referrinc to the audit. I am not sure that is 17 what you were referring to. 18

23. PATON I'll ask him.

19 THE WITNESS Don Blumenthal. 20 BY MP. PATON: (Resuming) 21 Q Is Don Blumenthal still employed by Consumers? 22 A No. 23 Q Hov long -- strike that. 24 How~1ong was he engaged in QA work for Consumers, 1 25 to your knowledge?. i I i '\\ Amansow nerontmG cowawv. me. 400 VinGmlA AVs. S.W., WASHmGToN. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

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believe they were 710 million.

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+.w es r ~'* c ' - - ~ .~. .~,w.~"' .? ' h ?g, 6; .g*.'-s ?. ;.r. nm.s.4f C Did you'com)1y with-)Jour CA progr'*am Fthe .. -.^ ~ ~ ~ 2 frequency of checking th e s,e reports? 3 A 'de did not have a frequency established. 4 0 Did the QA prcoram leave that frequency to your j 5 judgment? 6 A '!as. 7 Q !s it your opinion now that your judgment at that 8 time was not good? 9 A No. 10 C Is it correct, then, that although your opinion is 11 th at your judgment at that time was good that*it did, in 12 f a c t, not work out very well? 13 MR. ZAHARIN: You'mean it didn't work out very ~ 14 vell because they didn't catch these? 15 !!. PATON I will explain what I mean by didn't 16 verk out very well. Okay? 17 ~4 h a t ! nean by tha't is that you checked these test 18 results with a certain frequency in 1974, is that correct? 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. 20 EY MP. PATONS (Fesuming) ~ 21 C In 1977, it was revealed to you that there vere a 22 number of non-conf ormances. !s that correct? 23 A Yes. 24 C And now we find that there is a very serious soils 25 problem at the site characterired by at least a problem that ALDER $oN REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVL 5.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 .e

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94 ( > yJi,* m u a w a yy *.- .TKT ~%g l it =ay take Tic million to fit. Is that correct? 2 A Estinates that I have heard, yes. 3 C Tell me whether you agree or disagree with my 4 statement that since you, yourself, say that the lack of l 5 frequency in checking those tests in 1970 contributed to the 6 problem. Er statement is that that didn't work out very 7 vell, did it ? That the lack of checking in 197u as a matter 8 of f act didn't work out too well. 9 ER. ZAHARIN: I will object to the f orm of the 10 question. When you talk about problems, there were two. He 11 testified earliers that he couldn't say whether these 12 non-conf ormances contributed to the soils problem because he 13 didn 't know the locations of the tests. 14 You were talking before about the problem being 15 the f act that these non-confo:mances were not picked up 16 until '77. Now you are using problems to describe the soils 17 problem at Midland. He's already said he doesn't know where 18 these were. Therefore, he doesn't know if-these 19 non-conf ormances in f act relate to an area with the - 20 compaction problem. ~ 21 3Y !?. PAT.CN (Resuming) 22 Q Er. Horn, I think you are indicating that the 23 non-conformances indicated on page five of twelve of report 24 number F-77-32, I think you have indicated that you cannot 25 conclude that those non-conformances contributed to the l N ALoansON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

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don't recall any.

No. .7 C Let me make sure I understand. You did agree that 8 there is insufficient compaction at the site? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Do you have any opinion of what the cause is? 11 A Yes. 12 Q What. 13 A They have been established in the response 1450.Su(f). 15 Q What are they? 16 A Heavy reliance on testing as opposed to inspection. 17

33. PATON:

I want to ask-a few general questions 18 -- very general -. bef ore I show him the documents and ask 19 wh a t, if anything, he knows about it. 20 E! HE. PATONs (Resuming) s 21 ~ Are you f amiliar with staff question 23? Q 22 A Yes. 23 Q Did you prepare a document in response to-that 24 qu es tion ? I 25 A I helped prepare it. Yes. ~. Al,OERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

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. m..,_.... m,,.,,,........ .-yc) .:.-- - 5.. __,1( 96 {.7.$@-- hw_a-- 1 0 Did you substantially prepare the document? I i 2 mesn, did you do most of the work? 3 A No. 4 0 You had some contribution to it? i 5 A .Y e s. 6 Q Pave you read it? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Do you recall now -- you can certainly read the 9 document if you want to -- but do you recall when you read to it whether you disagreed with anything in the document? 11 A I don't recall disagreeing with anything in the 12 d ocumen t. 13 Q Is it fair to say that the document addressed the 14 root causes of insufficient compaction? 15 A 'Jould you repeat that again? 16 Q Is it a f air statement to say that your ansvers to 17 staf f question 23 addressed the root causes of insuf ficient 18 compaction at the site? 19 A Yes. 20 0 That is fair. Do you know approximately how many 21 rcot causer were identified in 23? Now I as asking you for ~ 22 your recollection. In a minute I will show you the document. 23 A Approximately 25. 24 Q Do you recall, about five minutes age'I asked you 25 what were the causes of insufficient compaction at the site i ALosasoN RFPoAT1NG COMPANY. INC. 400 vmGINLA AVE. S.W.. WASMNGToN, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

i ~.. :,Y; ' wJ .c '=u.ti_'.7::: f,y,4;-g +..,;f;:(.Q: r... pys_:4-J.?k a ' :K-z d': ' vo-?m. J; -:,, s a. 97 1 end you answered heavy reliance of testing as opposed to 2 insp ection ? ~ 3 A Yes. 4 C Am ! correct that you had not completed your 5 answer at.that point? 6 A Yes. ' 7 C Okay. Were some of these causes identified.in 23 8 similar to the non-conf ormances that we were talking about a 9 minute ago in that they were not discovered for two or three 10 years? 11 7.E. ZAEASIN: Excuse me. Could you read the 12 uestion bark please? 13 (The pending question was read by the reporter. ) 14 3Y ?.R. PATON: (Resuming) 15 C This is to clarify that last question, since there 16 is some problem with it. We are talking about page 5-12 of 17 audit report 7732. As I correct that you indicated prior 18 th at the non-conformances reflected-on that page were not 19 discovered by you for several years -- 1974 non-conformances 20 were not discovered until 19777 21 A Yes. I vocid like to correct that. There was 22 only one item on,here that was in '7a on this page. The 23 rest of them are in '76 and in '77. 24 0 Is it correct that the '76 non-conformances were 25 not discovered until 1977? ALDERSON 9EPoRTING COMPANY. INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE 5.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (2021554 2345 T T

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27 ' --- ~ ' ' 1 A That is cc::ect. 2 0 Do you have an opinion as to whether or not that 3 delay in discovering the non-conformances contributed to the 4 soils ;:ohlem at Midland? 5 .MR. "AEARIN: I object. He has answered that.' 6 MR. PATON: He answered it? lih at did he say? 7 3R. ZAHARIN: Do you want me to tell you what he 8 said? 9 ER. PATON: Sure. ~ 10 MS. ZAEARIN: He said no, I can explain it. 11 3R. PATON: He states that he doesn't know that 12 th a t contributed to the insufficient conpaction. 13 3R. ZAEARIN There were really two points to your 14 question. One to the fact that they were not discover and 15 he said no, and the uther is he doesn 't even know if these 16 son-conformances contributed because he doesn't know whether 17 these were in locations where in f act there was a compaction 18 problem f or information that is contained on here. 19 -Tha t is my recollection of his answers. 20 !! HR. PATON: (Resuming) 21 C '., e t me shift back to question number 23. Question 22 23 reflected a number of root causes for insufficient l 23 compaction of the site. Correct? 24 A Yes. 25 Q To your knowledge, were any of those root causes l i ? I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2348

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99 1 -- did any of those root causes involve deficiencies or 2 non-conformances that were not discovered in a tinely manner 3 and please feel free to look at the ansvers if you want to? 4 A Not that I recall. 5 0 How about inadequate soil noisture testing? 6 A I don't recall that as being a root cause to 7 insuf ficiently compacted back fill. It is a root cause in 8 that report for a deficiency that was identified, but I am 9 not sure whether that is a reason for insufficiently 10 compacted back fill. 11 Q I want to go back to page five or twelve of audit 12 number F-77-32. You indirate that there were 13 non-conformances that were not discovered until 1977 which j 141n f act occurred in '75 or '76. 15 YR. IAMARINs I think he said one in '74, the rest 161n '76 and '77. 17

HE WITNESS Thare are some reports in there and 18 a portion of that that do indicate the other years that I 19 gave earlier, but on that rpecific page it is only one test.

20 E! 5?. PATON: (Resuming) ~ 21 C You gave me two reasons. You said there was not I 22 enough hand-on testing by yourself. You gave ne two reasons 23 why -- two causes f or that delay, the reason it was not 24 disecvered until later. You thought there-were two causes 25 f o r it. '\\ ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC. n 400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (2021554-2345 4. -=, +-

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.. p ; ..: h h - m,os ~& 1 One, there was not e'nough hands-on work by 2 yourself. Okay? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Do you recall the other one? 5 A ,It was='t frequency of audits. It was scoping of 6 an audit - what we looked at? 7 0 I don't understand scoping of an audit. What does 8 that mean? 9 A 'Jhat specifically we looked at during that audit. 10 The audit would be scheduled. It would be scheduled that we 11 would run a soils audit that sonth, and it was left up to 12 myself on what ! actually looked at during that audit. 13 0

think you indicated that you used good judgment 14 in that regard -- in scoping the audit?

15 A Yes. 16 Q Then it is acceptable in your mind when auditing 17 thess tests as part of your responsibility that you do not 18 discover a problem for more than a year. Is that acceptable 191n your mind? Is that a permissible result under an 20 acceptable sudit program, in your expert opinion? 21

32. ZAMARINs Objection to the form of the 22 question.

23 THE *4!TNESS Could you repeat the question again? f 24 3R. PATON: I will say it again. 25 3! ER. PATCNs (Resuming) \\ ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (2021 554-2346

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believe I was aware of non-conforming tests.

7 was not aware that they had not been cleared. 8 Q You were aware of non-conforming tests? 9 MR. PATON: Why don't we take a five-minute break? 10 (A brief recess was taken.) 11 3Y ?.P.. PATON: (Eesuming) 12 0 !;. Horn, we have been, discussing a situation 13 indicated by your audit report F-7732 that certain 14 non-conf or=ing tests were not known to you f or a year or 15 more. to you agree with that statement? 16 A .t o. 17 Q Tell me what is wrong with th at statement. 18 A ! might have been aware of non-conforning tests. 19 I was not aware that they had not been closed out. That is 20 what that audit finding indicated. t 21 C The fact that they were not closed out. L'h a t does ~ [ l 22 that mean ? 23 A That the ma terial had not been reworked. and 24 sa tisf actory tests covering the failing tests taken. 25 0 So tha problem was still outstanding, to your l 1 1 l r 'N ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. l-mio viRoiNiA ave. s.w., wAsNiNoTON. D.C. 200M (202) 554-345 l

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~n ~ \\;. g: L. :. ~ u...w .,..n.........ux...,,,,.w...,,.._.,. y 1C2 . f.R?c=..L= mn .X. :.,.. c&.~& ~ 1 knowledge. The problem had never been solved. Is that 1 2 correct? 3 A That is correct. 4 C Di dn ' t you indicate to se that if in your QA 5 program there had been more hands-on work that you might- ~ 6 have di.- overed that problem earlier? 7 A Yes. 8 C You cave me another reason -- something about 9 scoping. Something about the frequency of the audit or a 10 scoping of the audit as the other rea son that you might have ~ 11 discovered that earlier? 12 A Yes. 13 C Could you explain that a little more please? 14 A If an audit would have looked at, gone through all 15 the records of tests that had failing tests and a check to 16 see if the f ailing tests had been cleared by passing tests, .17 th a t would have been picked up. 18 Q Please correct me, but I think you are saying to 19 me that if you had checked, you would have f ound it. That I 20 know. That is f airly clear. If you had checked it more 21 f:equently sarbe you vould have found it? 22 A No. If I would have checked it for the scope of l 23 those tests earlier ! vould have found it. 24 Q I can't argue with that at all. 25 If you had found it you would -have found it. What a b s / N ) Al.DERSON Rff0RTING COMPANY. INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE. $.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (2021554 2345

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i .:N w 2., t 103 { 1should you have done? Should you have done anything 2 diff erent than what you did? 3 ER. ZAEAEIN: When and with what, please? 4 EE. PATCNs Do you want 'me to go through the whole 5 thing again? 6

53. IAEA3!Na You mean other than what he did here?

'7 "R. PATON: When he did the audit work on this 8 that led to this report here. Would you do anything 9 diff erent if,you had to do it again. In doing the work that 10 led to the preparation of audit report T-7732 vould you de 11 anything different than you did? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 ET H3. PATON: (3esuming) 1 14 C What would you do? 15 A I would have more hands-on inspection. 16 C Anything else? 17 A No. 18 Q ! thought a minute ago you gave me some other 19 :eason other than a hands-on inspection, or as I wrong on 2)that? i 1 21 A No, I gave you another reason,'which would be 1 22 scoping of sudits, but I believe I would scope them the same l 23 as what I have in the past. ~ 24 C So you wouldn 't change that ? So it boils down to 25 hands-on work? '\\ AtoEnsON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 400 vinGNiA Avt. s.w., wasteNGTON. D.C. 20024 Q02) 564 2349

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.m.. n .n. ~ ~.-.. w-.g*.U. ~ A. p;,t 'h v =*, 3g. c a-.= m.. -- - g, y, s: _ g. 1 A Yes. 2 C Were you aware at the time, or was it your 3 opinion, in 1974 or 1975 or 1976 that you were not doing 4 enouch hands-on work? 5 A No. 6 Q When did you come to the opinion that you were not 7 doing enough hands-on work? 8 A It came out in the 50.54(f). In preparing for 9 that. 10 C When was that? 11 A The response was, I believe, in April, 1979. 12 C April of '79? 13 A Yes. 14 C Oid ycu prepare that response? 15 A Yes. 16 C Oid you contribute to it? 4 17 A Yes. 18 C So it was your opinion in April,1979, that there 19 should have been sore hands-on work? 20 A Yes. 21 0 .!n your audit work? 22 A You said audit work. It wasn't audit work. l 23 Q In your QA work?1 24 A Yes. 25 Q Was it ever your opinion before April of 1979 that 'N ALOeRsoN REPoRTWG COMPANY. WC. = s aco viRoWiA Avt. s.w., wAswiNGToN. O.C. 20024 (202) 954 2345

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13. PATON4 What did you just say?

11 THE WITNESS t I said no. 12 YE. ZAMAEIN: Do you mean what was his previous 13 answer? If you want ts hear it, let's have it read back. 14 The problem with this is f or him to say he should have done 15 more doesn't mean that what he did wasn't enough. 16 ME. PATON I as afraid that these conversations 17 are going to the witness. 18 3R. ZAHARIN: He sl:endy answered the question no, 19 and you seemed pu2: led. 20 MR. PA!ON: All righ t. We vil have to go back and 21 do' tha t one again. 22 (The sequence of questions and ansvers was read by 23 the reporter. ) 24 3Y ME. PATCN (Resuming) 25 Q Let's go back to that little line of questions '\\ ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. n 400 VIRGIN 4A AVE. S.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202)554 2346

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4you might possibly have identified. Would you agree that 5you probably would have identified sone of these problems -- i 6 or ?.o you think possibly is sore accurate? 7 A I think possibly is more accurate. 8 C What problems are these that you might have 9 identified? 10 A .ift thickness problems, reliance on testing, lack 11 of adequa o CC inspection. That is all that ! can recall 12 no w. 13 C The fact that you now believe that more hands-on 14 verk should have been done, does that =ean that there was, 15 a t the time you did your work in '74 throuch '77, 16 insufficient staffing in the QA organization? 17 A No. 18 0 Then ! vould conclude that it was a matter of 19 emphasis in your work as opposed to requiring someone else 20 to help you do the work. Is that correct? 21 A Could you repeat that again? b 22 (The pending question was read by the repceter. ) 23 THE U!TNESS: I don't understand the question. 24 3Y ER. PATONa (Resuming) 25 0 You indicated you didn't think there was a problen 4 \\ ALDERSON REPORTWG CosAPANY, INC. s 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W. WASHWGTON. D.C. 2003a 4202) 564 2148

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de had tha t way back before.

14 ZR. PATON Do you agree with your lawyer that you i 15 didn 't tell se tha t ? I think he just changed now to a type 16 of hands-on. ~4hy don't you just let his clarify it? 17

55. ZAHARIN:

Eecause it has been. asked and 18 answered and he said that there should have been more and 19 you said did he not do enough and he said no. j 20

33. PATON:

The record is total confusion. I would 21 th' ink could clarify it by you and ! talking. let me just 22 ask him a very simple question. '4 hat did he say? 23 ER. :', A E A R IN : Then I have to object, because it 24 has been asked and answered.- 25 5R. PATONa You said something about hands-on work u l I '\\ Ai.oans0N REPORTMG COWANY, WC. 400 VIAG#mA Avt. S.W.. WAsum4 TON. 0.C. 20024 (202) 964 229

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, n.[,.- % ~.;'.)id.l D h P i 3. _- Q Q Q ' ,;- Q g u* ?. pp- -{- r- . -:,cv.. .,.t., .e 111 1 A Yes. If I would have had more time to spend on it 2 I could have spent more time on soils. ?.ig h t. 3 C You have indicated to se that you ultinately 4 decided there was a lack of hands 'on inspection in the soils i 5 area and ycu didn't spend that time because you didn 't have 6 that time available. You would have spent more time on it 7 if you had had the time, is that correct? 8 A Yes. J 9 ER. ZAHARIN: I object. He has already answered. 10 THE WITNESS. I said I could have spent more time 11 on soils had I -- 12 SY 33. FATON (Resuming) 13 0 What is possible is not helpful. Should you 14 have? That is what we are talking about. You said the lack 15 of hands-on inspection is the problem, and I as trying to 16 find out why there wasn't more hands-on inspection. Why 17 wasn 't there more hands-on inspection? 18 A At the time I did not feel that there was a 19 problem with soils of magnitude that I presently know. 20 0 Is it fair to say that you did not appreciate the 21 ;r'oblem at the time? 22 XR. ZAEARINs What problem? You mean with the 23 soils? i 24 RY !?.. PATON: (Resuming) 25 C You did not understand there was a serious soils +- 'l l ALDER $oN REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 400 VWIGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (2021554 2346

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j ' ' ' ] * ' ?g.f._ n..% 3~.,To-:,.?; g 3:,;.y ' l .g. g g &.'J,..- -n- ..s ..n .e y~. 4.r.z-Q. ';: ~ , w' .m s :. .,:a a. 113 1 C What is your conclusion now? i 2 A That it was not effective. 3 C 'Jh a t makes you say it was not effective? 4 A The problems that have been identified.g 5 Q The problems have been identified, I believe you 6 cited bef ore, were lift, thickness, reliance on testing, and 71ack of adequate QC inspection. 8 A Ies. 9 C These are the problems that arose from inadequate 10 Q A, is th at correct? 11 A Those are problems that could have possibly been 12 caught had there been more hands-on inspection of that work. 13 C I think I asked you this again. I don't knov 14 whether you answered or not. You made the judgment -~ ! 15 believe you indicated -- on how much hands-on inspection you 16 did. Is that correct? 17 A Yes. 18 C so on hindsight you now believe that your dudcaent 191n that reg a rd was in error? 20 ER. ZAHARIN When you say in hindsight, you mean 211f' he had known then everything he knows now would his 22 judgment have been different? 23 MR. PATON: No. 24 XP. ZAEARIN: Is that what you mean by hindsight? 25 RY MR. ?*. TON (Resuming) i i \\ ALoans0N REPORTWG CWPANv, WC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASNINGTON, D.C. 20024 (2021554 2345

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1 C Considering what you*know now, do you consider 2 that your judgment at the time, based on what you knew at 3 the time, was good judgment? f 4 A I f eel that at the time that I performed the soil 5 audits and inspections that I was performing them and 6 evaluating the problems identified to the best of the CA i I 7 program. The hindsight that I see now vculd tell se that I 4 8 more over inspections should have been performed at this i 9 time. If I had to do it all over again ! vould probably do 2 10 the same thing at tha t time, now knowing the infctmation I 11 that I know now. 12 Q Okay. So your judgment, based on everything you 13 know now, was that your.1udgment at that time was good, was 14 not defective based on what you knew at that time? i. I 15 A Yes. 16 0 Do you consider yourself qualified in the quality 17 assurance area? Did you consider yourself at that time 18 qualified to perform your f unction? i 19 A Yes. l 1 20 0 When you first started as a field quality 21 as'surance engineer veuld you agree that you had very limited i 1 I 22 experience in O A? l j 23 A Yes. 24 Q And when you first sta rted, did you consider 25 yourself qualified to perf orm the job you had? i, N Ai.neRsoN REPORTING COMPANv, INC. 4 x i ace vwiGusa An. s.w., wAsWNGToN. O.C. 20024 (2021584 2345 , ~..

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he first recommendation that I can recall was the 15 merge between Pechtel QA and Consumers OA, which would have 16 heen the last part-of '79 or the first part of

'80. 17 0 Approximately when did you become aware of the 18 diesel generator settlement problem? 19 A Aucust of 1978. 20 0 Am I correct that you indicated -- how long afte. l 21 th'e diesel generator building settlement problem did you 22 come to the conclusion that there was a lack of hands-on 23 inspection in the soils area? ~ 24 A I don't recall. It would have been between that 4 25 timer period and the time period of the first report on the ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. ) l aco wRoma ave. s.w.. wasNmatoN. o.c. 20ca4 <2c2: ss4-2us -

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1 question 23 response, which va's April of '79. It was 2 betdeen that ti=e period. 3 C So I see a gap between April of '79, i 4approximately, when you came to the conclusion that there 5 should have been more hands-on inspection in the soils area 6 and December of '79 or January of '80, when you made such a 7 :ecommendation to your management. 8 3R. ZAEARIN No, the recommendation to the 9 management was with ref erence to insufficient staffing, not 10 about hands-on. You are comparing apples and oranges. 11 ER. PATON: What was your recom=endation to f 12 management? Did you indicate to management when you made 13 the recommendation in December of '79 or January of '80 that 14 there was this lack of hands-on inspection that we discussed. 15 THE WITNESS No. 16 SY MR. PATCNs (Resuming) 17 C No? What was your recommendation to management in 18 December of '79 or January of '80? 19 A 3erry Corley asked me how many people I felt I 20 needed in the quality assurance engineering section, and - ! 21 stated three to four people. 22 C' How many people did you have when he asked you 23 that question? 24 A One. 25 C So it was your opinion at that time that you f 4 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVL S.W,. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (2021554 2346

l ' ' Q. > A, O~ j e : ..,. +. j k$ j y ~.. 3 3. y.-- D .* ; g g u ; i ii,;.; i c. - w* - 4%- =..,,w .e i 119 1should have had tvc or three more people than you had? i 2 A 7 hat he was asking me was with the merge we were I 3 goin g to have with 3echtel CA how many I felt I would need 4 to f ulfill the responsibilities of the new requirements per 5 that merge, and I stated three to four people, including 6 myself. 7 C I recall an answer you gave, and it say be not 8 accurate -- 9 ER. SAMARINa You mean your recollection may not 10 he accurate? 11 3R. PATON My recollection. i 12' BY 53. PATONs (Eesuming) 13 C You indicated that you became aware of the problem 14 that there should have been more hands-on work when you that 15realired tha diesel generator building settlement 16 the diesel generator building had not met its design 17 criteria in settlement. Do you recall an answer like that? 18 A I recall saying that it was after that. Yes. 19 Q My question is, when you referenced design 20 criteria, what did you mean? 21 A The TSAR requirements on settlement. s 22 C Do you recall what they are? 23 A For the diesel generator building it varies 24 between 2.8 inches and 3.2 inches per the f orty-year lif e of 25 the plant. '\\ ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE, $.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (2021564 2346 ~

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, _QM --.1;N)((Q.Lyj.,,4,# . E.G,.... - ?. y. _- ~ 4. m - -_, "*'%t'd$$q fs . Ty-fWM j'f32?A'E7WQT ;; ~p.:#n, .....rge. m o rm -w., --. u_ ; %._..,_,._,__ , -q [Q.f (X:u w av.:u =. --.~~.n,,,-,..~.2.-.. ..,. ~... {}Q~!b-mn&-- ~ ~ '/..;;.,_ f 9..-~% + 1 answer the question, you can or can not perform your 2 function now with one assistant. 3 M3. ZAMARIN: The same objection. You can answer. 4 THE WITNISS4 I would like to talk to my counsel. 5 (A discussion was held off the record.) 6 THE 4:TNISSa When I mentioned day-to-day work, it ~ 7 would be over inspection plans f or the II and TY group to go 8 out and inspect to. That is why I say I feel at the present 9 staffing we have we can handle that. There is a backlog on 10 open NC?s. There is a backlog on unresolved items with the 11 NRC. There is a backlog of items of non-compliance with the 12 NRC. 13 And to resolve all of the things that ! as 14 responsible f or the present staff with one person in 15 addition to myself cannot do the total job. 16 !! ME. PATON: (Resuming) 17 C You have a backlog of non-conformance. What did 18 you say ? 19 A Non-conformances. else did you say you had a backlog in ? s 20 C What 21 A Unresolved NEC items. 22 0 '4h at else. 23 A A backlog of items of non-compliance that the NRC 24 ha s. 25 0 These are non-compliances NRC is raising as 1 1 1 i 1 \\ J ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 400 VIRGIN 4A AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2348 ---r

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- W-E s.y g-y;c Q:-. m . ~_ .M A -h.;&~.h E5._p -: g =sg; 7.,;.- 7 9 9 : % <-- =. ,:u .,a.- 129 1 A The top one. 2 C Non-conformances? 3 A Yes. 4 C That is with respect to soils? 5 A Some are with respect to soils. One is on 6 structo:a1 steel. One is on concrete. Cne is on compaction 7 equipment. That is all that I can recall. 8 Q The next item I have listed is NRC unresolved 9 items. In your mind is that a separate list f rom the 10 non-confornances ? 11 A Yes. 12 C

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13 A From my best recollection it would be silicone 14 behind tase plates is an unresolved item. Not having 15 qualification requirements for g: outing persennel for 16 grouted anchors. 17 Q ! missed a word. What personnel? 18 A Grouting personnel. 19 C Could you say the whole thing again? 20 MR. IAEARIN: I think it was qualification 21:equirements f or grouting personnel. 22

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-% % - 4.. a.. -'F* 131 l 1 1 that. I don't mean to interrupt you, but the Kepple 2 :eport, do you mean 78-20? 3 A Yes. l 4 C Items of non-compliance. I am looking at pages 17 5 through 19 and ! see sixteen examples, review of 6 non-conf ormance reports. Are you referring to that, or are 7 you referring to the entire report? 8 A Within the body of the report there are numbers in 9 parentheses af ter a given section and I am ref erring to i 10 th ose. 11 C .' :. Horn, let me ask you very briefly. There is 12 no q uestion about this, but I'm looking at the bottom of 13 page e and I see the numbers 329/78-20-01, and on the next 14 page -- page 9 -- ! see at the end cf the report called 15 Effective cound Water in Plant Area Fill -- half an ites on 16 page nine. I see the number two. 17 A Yes. 18 Q Is that the series of reports or items that you 19 are talking about that you just referenced? 20 A Yes. Within the Keppler report. 21 O Do you know approximatley how many items there are 22in all? k 23 A In this report? i I 24 Q Approximately.' i 25 A Approximstely nine or ten. i I 's Al. DER $oN REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 400 VIRGIN 4A AVL S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202)554-2346

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.....,. ~ -.. ~ ...;3.g;77. pg.:;.y.gg. 7 f...q g.gz; . g. gg, d p.--h- .. ~,fr.x.- ..e-mv.. 2,n 133 l ' ~ 1 A Mght. i 2 C rithin ycur responsibilities at the OA plant -- at 3 the Midland plant, ra ther -- you are the Civil Group 4 Superviso r. Is that acceptable to you? i 5 !R. 1AEARIN: The same objection as bef ore. l 6 ITE WITNIt$ s The question keeps changing on me. } ' 7 It seems like -- no, it is not acceptable and we plan on 8 trying to get old items closed out -- at least on a computer i 9 printout progran. As f ar as it being acceptable, it depends 4 10 on the actual itea, in what stages it is as f ar as getting 11 resolved. There are many open items. 12 0 I mestn the total picture you have given me. You i 13 have indicated there are several of these items. Adding i i 14 them all up, is that acceptable to you in your capacity as 15 Civil Group Supervisor? i 16 ER. 1AEAFIN4 The same objection as to form. We 17 don't know acceptable as to what. 18 3R. PATON He is the Civil Group Supervisor. Do 19 you have dif ficulty with that question? 20 THE WITNESSa Yes. 21 BY 5R. PATON: (Resuring) 22 Q Have you reported these items to your supervisor? 23 A Not specifically. He is aware of then.. 24 0 Have you made any recommendation to him that 25 something should be done to resolve this backlogt l l I \\ ALDERSON REPORTING COGAPANY. INC. s-400 VIRG#eA AVE. S.W., WASM:NOToN. D.C. 20024 (2021554 2345

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( ; 6.w=x r 2 2,e _,-m-, % m.wcm.. o. s,..., 134 ,g ' ;;- '.T T 1 - m g:s '.c. ' t .(..Q2:w wm.W 1 A He is the cae who is pushing f or that. Yes. 2 2 C Are you pushing for it? 3 A Yes. 4 C And he is pushing for it? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Eov long have you both been pushing for it? 7 A App:oxizately two months. 8 C That is the time of the reorganiration? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Did you have responsibilities in sose of these 11 areas p:ior to two months ago? 12 A Yes. J 13 0 Were you pushing to get them resolved then? 14 A Some were in ;; ogress. Some were being pushed. 15 Yes. 16 C I understand your answer to be that you were 1 17 pushing to get sose of them resolved. 1 18 A I said some were in progress and some were being 19 pushed. Yes. l 20 0 That is what I said. You were pushing some of . 21 them. 22 A Yes. 23 C Hov long were you pushing some of those? 2 24 A Sose of those approximately eight montits. 1 25 0 Who do you push? l '\\ ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. 0.C. 20024 1202) 944 2349 ~...

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=-- 1 resolved. You were confining *your efforts when you said 2 ;ushing to yourself and your supervisor? 3 A No. I said project engineering personnel and 4 Bechtel C A personnel before the time of the merge. 5 0 ,Do you ever go higher in the Consumers 6 organiza: ion to try to get come of these things done? 7 ?.E. ZAEARIN: Higher than his supervisor, or 8 himself ? 9 MR. PATON: Higher than yourself or your 10 supervisor? 11 THE WITNESS: I personally don't. No. 12 3Y ER. PATON: (Resuming) 13 Q Do you think you should? 14 XR. ZA%ARINs In order to do what? 15 3Y MR. PATON: (!*susing) 16 0 to you think you chould, with the responsibilities 17 you have as the Civil Group Supervisor? 18 A If the need arises, yes. 19 0 Apparently you have not found that the need has 20 arisen since you say you have not done it. 21 A That is correct. 22 0 Have you ever done it? Gone over your boss's head 231n O A and said something isn't getting resolved and you are 24 unhappy about it and you want some help from somebody higher r 25 than your boss, since you worked for Consumers? l l .s ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 400 vie 64NLA AVE. S.W., WASMtNGToN, D.C. 20024 (202' " 4 2349

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, n_;..m, e.# - -%v - s. . a c,. 137 1 MR. ZAEAR!Na I will object to the form as a 2 characteriration of his testimony, which I don't believe it 31s. 4 ER. PATON: All I said was had he ever done it? 5 MR. ZAMARIN: Then you told us what it meant. I'm 6 not sure that is what we have been talking about. ~ 7 BY MR. P ATON: (resuming) 8 C Regardless, have you ever, since you have worked 9 for Consumers Power, so ugh t to talk to someone higher than 10 your own supervisor because of your own inability to get a 11 aatter under your own responsibility resc1ved? 4 12 A I don't believe I have personally. I believe my 13 supervisor has taken it up further. 14 Who does he so tot 15 A With the new organiration, he would go -- it was 16 Hank leonard under the new organiration. Hank leonard is my 17 supervisor. He would have gone to Jerry Corley. 18 Q Is that as high as it goes? 19 A If ther -- you see those people are aware of open 20NCis. The Q A manager is aware of open NCRs. Also, Bechtel 21 ma'nagement is aware of open NCRs. The computer printout 22 indicates who has the responsibility for getting the action 23 done on the specific ites. 24 C Do you know whether Mr. Bird is aware of this 25 backlog cf problems that you recited? \\ l i '\\ ALDER $0N REPORTING COMPANY, INC. j 400 VIRGINIA AVI. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (2021664 2345

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[Gi-2tl... ' /. .r,- T. '.'Eh - 1 A Yes. 2 0 Do you know what he is doing about it? 3 A It appears in his sonthly report. 4 Q Do you know? 5 A .Ps: don me? 6 C Do you know what he is doing about it? 7 A Me is trying to im press on the peo ple out in the 8 field to get our items closed out, if we have the 9 :esponsibility to get them closed out. ) 10 Q That is -- is 5:. 31:d doing anything to advise 11 his superiors? 12 A Yes. He makes up the monthly report that he 13 submits to the Vice President. 14 0 'Jhat Vice President is that? 15 A The ?idisnd Vice President. 16 C Does he have a name? 17 A Yes. Jim Cooke. 18 C Are you tvare of any conversations between 3:. 19 Bird or F.r. Cooke with respect to the backlog of items that 20you have recited? l 21 A Conve::sation meaning verbal? 22 C Verbal. Written. Any consunications between 23 those gentlemen on that subject? 24 A Yes. The monthly report. 25 0 What does the monthly report say? We cucht to fix '\\ ALD8RSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 400 vtRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASMtNOTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 844 2348

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let me ask you this. You have been in 8 0A work for a number of years now and you are sitting across 9 the table telling se you don 't know what I mean by QA 10 ;;ogram, and I have dif ficulty with that. Can you tell me 11 why you don 't know what ! mean by QA ;:ogras? 12 !R. ZAHARIN: vill object to tha t. He says he J 13 doesn't know what you mean, because I suspect you don't knov 14 vhat you noin by QA ;:ogram. 15 ER. PATON: He has been in OA for seven yea:s and 16 he doesn't know what I mean by the ex; ession OA program. 17 ER. ZARARIN: His terminology may not be the same 18 as yours and he is entitled to know what you are talkinc 19 about. 20 EY !?. PATONa (Eesuming) 21 C Oc you know what I mean when I say CA ; ogram? 22 XR. ZAHARIN: I object. He can't know what you 23 ae a n. It is impossible it.: him to know what you mean. 24 ER. FAT 0Ns I'll ask h:2 what he understa ds -- 25 what you mean when you say CA program. \\ A L'.!' 1 REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 400 VIROWIA AVE. S.W., WASMWGToN. o.C. 20024 (202) 884 2348

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HI WI;NISS

No. 16 !Y !!. PATCN (Resusing) 17 Q Hsve you conveyed that information to your 18 superior? 19 A No. 20 Q !s it your opinion that you require additional 21 po':sonnel to perform the responsibilities that ycu have as a 22 Civil Group Supervisor? JN 23 A Yes. \\ \\ 24 Q Do you know why you cannot get those additional

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v111 evaluate it at that time based on what 8 activities we have to follow and what is being done.

9 C Do you have an opinion on that satter right new? 10 Do you know if you add another person whether you vill be 11 able to perf orm the responsibilities assigned to you now? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Do ycu have an opinion? 14 A Yes. 18 0 '4 hat is that cpinion? 18 A That we vill be able to perform the activities 17 that we have to perfors in our C A sanual. 18 0 What will be the sinisus qualifications for the l 19 person that you next assign to your section? 20 XR. ZAHARIN:

ch: lect as being outside of the 21 se' ope of this proceeding, but so ahead and answer it if you 22 know.

l 23 THE VITNISts There is a number of possible i 24 requirements f or that individual. 3 ff MR. PATON: (Resuming) 1 N atoeRs0N 40PORThe COWANY, WC. 400 veeNA Avt. S.W., WASMWSTON. 0.C. 20034 4303) 984 3340

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It is outside the t 5 scope of this proceeding by leaps and bounds. 6 BY MR. P ATONa (Resusing) I 7 0 till you answer the question? 8 THE W:! NESS: May I talk to my counsel? 9 ( A discussion was held off the record.) 10 THE WITNESS: The gene:a1 requirements, as l 11 :eca11, would be five yea:s experience in construction with 1 12 approximately th:ee years in the nuclear area, preferable a [ 13 degreed engineer, a member of prof essional engineering l 14 groups. Thst is about all I can recall. i 15 3Y E!. PATOWs (Resusing) 16 Q !s there any requirement that this person have any J } 17 experience in quality assurance work? 18 A There si'ght be a person of QA and CC, but I don't 1 t 19 recall if it is specifically tus11ty assurance. 1 20 C There is a requirement? Is there any requirement 21 th at the person have any CA or OC work? 22 A Yes. t 23 0 Do you know how many years? 24 A Again, no f ast and hard rule, but approximately 25 t!2ree years of nuclear CA, QC experience. i N As.nensoN mopostme coupA=v. me. 400 veneena Avt, s.w wasumotoN. 0.C. 20:3413001884 3380 l

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23 Q ! think you have also referenced some informal 24 stop work. What was the alternative that you discussed to a 25 for:a1 stop work? 'N ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVL 5.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20C24 (2021554 2345 ~
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.p __~____s._ _;.wy . g,. 3t, m -- i 1 A Telling the people that we were working with to i 1 2 stop. If they didn't stop then I would go to my I j 3 supervisor. I would go te my supervisor or go to the field ~ i 4 engineering supervision to get the work stopped until I ,y 5 resolved the problem. 6 Q Do you know how often you did that -- where you 7 did it informally? Approximately? I realire that may be 8 hard to reaember. 9 A Whenever I found the probles. 10 Q I realire this may be hard to remember, but did ~ 11 this happen rocchly twice a yes: or fif teen times 'a year, or 12 more ? Can you make any approximation of it at all? 13 A To my best recollection approximately twice a year. 14 Q Oid you ever seriously consider issuir$g stop work 15 order -- a formal stop work order? 16 A Yes. 17 C Tell us what was the matter that caused you to 18 seriously issue a stop work order? i 19 XR. ZAMARIN: Seriously considerly or seriously 20 issu e ? i 21 ~ XR. PATON: Seriously consider. 22 MR. 2AMARIN: I thought you dropped a word out o-2 23 your question. I didn't hear consider. 24 THE WITNESS: Af ter the diesel generator building 25 settlement and after performed an audit of soils this year. \\ ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVL S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (2021 554 2345
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151 i-1 I i 1 SY XP. PATONS (?esuming) 2 g Am I correct that you just indicated there were 3 two occasions on which you seriously considered issuing a J' 4 stop work order? 1( 5 A .To my best recollection. Right. T 6 C And the first one was after the diesel generator 7 building settlement and the second one was -- 8 A After I performed a soils audit this year. 9 0 What do you understand about your authority to 101ssue a'stop work order? 11 A I have the authority to stop work. 12 O Under what conditions would you stop work ? 13 A If an item -- there is a checklist that we go 1 14 through on stop work -- determination of stop work. If an 151 tem continues and it would be high cost impact if verk 16 would continue and it would affect the safety of the public 17 that is about it. l 18 0 With respect to the -- after the diesel generator 19 building settlement, what were the considerations -- what 20 vere -- what did you consider when you say you seriously I 21 co'nsidered issuing a stop work order? 22 ~ A I believe Een Margulgio. contacted ne and felt that 23 stop work should be imposed on 3echtel until we resolved the i f 24 problems or possible problems and root causes' of the actual ' 25 settlement' of the diesel generator building. \\ ALDER $oN REPORTING CoMPANV. INC. s 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (2021554-2345
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LA;1 ..,..m.,~-.e->--v*w.~.se...=~---- a 152 ~ . -. + QplG.'c= ~w= ~n. .y .>"Q 1 0 k' hen was that? 1 2 A I don't recall. 3 0 You say -- essentially, I think, what you are j 4 sa ying is it var Zarguglio -- is that how you.:ronounce it? / 5 A Ies. That's how you spell it, but the way you' l 6 pronounce it is Margulio. 7 C Am I correct that Mr. Zarguglio st;gested that to 8 you? 9 A Yes, he did suggest that to me. 10 C And th a t prior to suggesting it to you you had not 11 seriously considered a stop verk order? 12 A I was concerned about continuation of work. 13 Q ihd you independently of your call from Z:. '14 Marguglio -- had you yourself seriously considered issuing a 15 stop work order? 16 A No. 17 C Knowing what you know now,-do you think you should 18 have issued a stop work order at that. time? 19 ZR. ZAEARIN: Objection as to form. Do you aean 20having all the information you have now. If he had all that 21 in'f o rm a tion a t that time? 22 ' !?.. PATCN: That is what I said, I think. Knowing 23 what you know now, would you have issued a stop work order? i 24 MR. ZAHARIN: The same objection as to form. In 25 other words, knowing what he knows now,'would he have issued .\\ ALDER $oN /.?oRTING COMPANY. INC. r 400 VIAGINIA AVE. S.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 l m
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l .v'- 2- -.,.u 153 l it based upon what he knew then, or would he have issued it 2 assuming that he knew then what he knows now? i 3 %R. PATON: It is knowing what you know now, which 4 I assumes means knowing what you k'now now. I said knowing 5 what you know now.- 6 ER. ZAHARIN: Would you have then issued it? . 7 ER. PATON: Knowing at that tine what you now 8 know, would you have issued a stop work order? 9 THE WITNESS No. I would like to state that stop 10 work -- not a formal stop work -- was imposed, but the stop 11 vo rk was not imposed on Sechtel. 12 2! ER. PATON: (Resuming) 13 0 Was that imposed by Consumers?. 14 A Yes. 15 Q Who r.ade that decision? 16 A Sen 'arguglio. 17 0 Do you agree with that decision? 18 A Yes. 19 C Tou agree with that decision, but at the same time. 20you state that at that time id you knew everything you knov 21 no'v you would not have issued a stop work order. Is that 22 correct ? 23 A Yes. 24 C Is the reason that you would not have issued a-25 stop work order at that tine beca'use there was some \\- ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVL S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 564 2345 nd -sw-- g v-e y-r w g y ai%-' 'v ew
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And after '7u, there vasn't a 2 pernanent on-site geotechnical soils engineer out there. As 3 he was requested from project engineering or f rom the 4 field. He would go out there on visits. But not on a 5 :egular basis. 6 Q Was he a Consumers em;1oyee? 7 A No. He was 3echtel Geotech. 8 0 Are you f amiliar with 3echtel design criteria 9 C-501? 10 A have read it. Yes. 11 C Do you know whether it requires that during 12 filling operations that there be a continuous technical -- 13 that there be a continuous technical supervision by a 14 qualified soils engineer? 15 3R. ;AMARINs Could we have the question read 16 back, please ? 17 (The pending question was read by the reporter. ) 18 THE WITNESS: By filling I am assuming soil 19 placement fill and I am aware of maybe not those quote, 20vor'ds, unquote, but words to those effect. ~ 21 SY !?. PATON: (Resuming) 22 C In your opinion, was there compliance with that 23 requirement? 24 A No. 25 0 Were you aware when filling operations were being i j l i '\\ ALDER $CN REPORTING COMPANY, INC. \\ 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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157 i 1 "ithin your responsibilities at that time, did you 2 do anythin about that? About that infernation that there 3 was no qualified soils engineer continuously on the site? 4 A I wasn 't aware of that requirement. I'm just 5 saying when I was aware. 6 C When did you first become aware of the requirement? 7 A I can't recall the time period bef ore. But I knov 8I was after the diesel generator building settlement. 9 C You are stating that you do not know right now 10 yo u ca n ' t ramember that you knew of this requirement for the 11 qualified soils engineer to be continuously on the site 12 during filling operations. You were not aware of that ;rio 13 to the settlement of the diesel generator building? 14 YR. IAEAR:N: May I have the questien read back, 15 please ? 16 (The pending question was read by the reporter.) 17 EY HR. PATON: (Resuming) 18 Q Do you remember right now -- do you remember when 19 you acquired your first knowledge of the requirement that 20 there be a qualified soils engineer on the site continuously 21 du' ring filling operations? 22 A I remember performing an audit. I don't. recall f 23 th e d a te or th e time f ra me. Where it is an a udit on C-501. 24I recall reading the portion that states similar to the 25 words that you have. I'm not sure of the exact words, but I I l l l- \\ 2 l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. l 400 VIAGINIA AVE. S.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2346 -
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~~hen I performed that audit.~~
e 5 .EE. ZAHARIN: Ask him if he recalls when he 6 perf ormed the audit.. 7 3Y !E. PATONs (Resuming) 8 Q I don't know when you performed that audit. Can 9 you hel; us out? Do you know when you performed that audit 10 approximately ? 11 A '75 or '76. I don't recall. 12 C So there was a time -- strike that. 13 Was there a time while soil placement was being 14 ace:mplished in the power block area -- 15 y.3. IAEAEIN: Eeaning the diesel generator 16 building area? 17 ER. PATON: The diesel generator building area. 18 Do you want me to name some = ore? 19 THE WITNESS: If you say non-dike area - 20 ME. PATONs We vill understand each other? 21 THE WITNESEs I will understand it. Yes.- 22 BY ER. PATONs (Resuming) 23 C The non-dike area. Was there a time while filling 24 operations were being conducted in the non-dike area that 25 you were aware that there was not a qualified soils engineer 'N ALDERSON RE*ORTING COMPANY. INC. = 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202)554 2345
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~~Jas there ever a time when you had knowledge of 12 two things simultaneously.~~
Numbe: one, that filling 13 operations in the non-dike area were being conducted and 14numbe: two, that there was not a qualified soils engineer 15 continuously on the site and that you vere aware of the 16 :equirement for the qualified soils engineer to be 17 continuously on the site ? 18 A Could I have the question back again? 4 19 %E. ZAHA3INa-Just read it back. The question was. 20 fine, if you could read it back. ~ 21 (The question was read by the reporter.) 22 THE VITNESS4 May I talk to my counsel? 23 - ( A discussion was held off the :ecord. ) 24 THE VITNESS: I will try_to answer the question as 25I feel that you are proposing it to me. \\' t -l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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~~ihen I read 4 that requirement in C-501 I did not feel that it was a 5 requirement to have a person of the capability that we had 6 had earlier and what we have now at the site.~~
7 3Y 33. PATONs (Resuming) 8 0 You say when I read the requirement. 9 3R. ZAEARIN: You only read a portion of it. I ~ 10 think he is saying there is more to it. You have been 11 limiting him to one sentence. That is why I wanted you to 12 show his C-501 earlier. Yc.u are limiting him to one 13 sentence of that and he has been giving responses in 14 ace:: dance with your questien, which was that ene sentence. 15 'Jhat he is saying now is that there is more in 16 C-501 of which he was aware.. 17 THE 'd TNESS: That is right. 18 BY EE. ?ATONs (Resuming) 19 0 There is something else in criteria in C-501 that 20 bears on the qualifications of the soils engineer? 21 It states what this man does. A 22 C Does it indicate the degree to which he has te he 23 continuously on the site? f 24 A No. 25 0 Does it say what he is supposed to do? l x 4' ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2346
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~~33. IAMAPIN I don't think it is capable of heing 13 answered, in sy legal opinion.~~
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155 ~ 7 1 objection. 2 IR. FATC5: I'n asking the witness if he 3 understands the question. 4 vR. IANAr:Ns I don't care what you are asking 5him. I want to know what the question is. 6 BY 5E. PATCNs (3esuming) ' 7 Q 2:. Horn, are you familiar with Eechtel design 8 criteria 5017 9 A I have read it. I have perferned audits to it. Yes. 10 0 Do you recall whether there are any requirements 111n 3echtel design criterion 501 with respect to having a 12 qualified soils engineer on the site continuously, all the 13 time ? i 14 A Yes. General requirement. l 15 0 Your answer is yes. General requirement? 16 A Yes. 17 C That is your answer? 18 A Yes. 19 "R. IAEAR!N That is his answer. It is on the 4 20 :e co rd. i 21 EY MR. PATON: (?esuming) 22 C What is the requirement with respect -- strike 23 th at. rhat is your recollection with respect any' 24 :equirements that may be contained in Bechtel's design 25 criterion 501 with respect to having a qualified soils .\\ ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 1202) 584 2346 --s .m. ,y ,y.
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A Just as you have stated. a 3 that the person perforn field tests. 4 0 Z. Horn, I an asking you fe: your recollection of 5what the requirement was. 6 %R. IAZAEIN: He just told you what it was. 7 ER. PATON: Ee said there was a requirement and he 8 was to do some testing. 9 ME. IAEAE!N: That is right. That is what it 10 says. Ycu can read it. 11 3! MR. PATONs (Easuming) 12 C ! am asking you your recollection of what the 13 :equirement was with respect to a qualified soils engineer 14en the site at ?.idland. 15 EE. AMARIN:
~~think he just answered that.~~
~~If 16 you will go back two ansvers you will find it. It has been 17 asked and answered. We vill have it read back. 18 (The answer was read back by the 1 porter.) J 'l 19 ST ER. PATON: (Resusing) 20 0~~
~~5. Forn, I just" heard the reporter read back your 21 an'sver, including the words, as you stated.~~
Were you 22 :s f e rring to something ! stated. 23 A Yes. 24 C Did you say as ! stated? - 25 A I don't recall what ! stated. \\ ALDER $oN REPORTING COMPANY. INC. e,. 400 VIRGINLA AVE. S.W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (2C2) 554 2345
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7..,y--;'g:y; # m 'n-. =. ;.y u 167 1 0 Did you incorporate within your answer some 2 statement that I made? 3 A Yes. 4 C Can you tell ne what that statement vas? + 5 A .The statement was the question prior to my l 6 :esponse. l ~7 0 What did ! say? 8 A You stated the quote out of that document and left 1 1 9 off the part 10 Will you tell me what I said? 11 A Filling operations should be perforned under the 12 continuous technical supervision _of a qualified soils i 13 engineer. I believe you added at all times at the Midland a l 14 site, i 15 C Okay. I thought I said at any time. Do you agree 16 that Sechtel's design criterion C-501 required that at some 17 time -- m eaning any time -- I'm not pinning you down to any l 18 particular period, but that at some period of time there be 13 a qualified soils engineer -- strike that. 1 20 That filling operations should be performed under 21 th'e continuous technical supervision of a qualified soils 22 engineer? I .I i 23 A Would you repeat the question. You had your i 24 strike out stuff and then the question wasn't complete. 25 C let me try something else. I'm going to ask you i 'N ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 -
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~ ~ S? n:.,. 27.e .. -::y:g;p. : k. :.-- Lr - ..-;,L m. :4~ 'i L,l.* Q. [ ; 7 3..-- Q.~= g... __y.g,.e' .A c. >.s if9 l 1 :equiresent? l 2 x3. ;AMAE!N: As he sits here now? l 3 EE. PATON: Yes. 4 THE WITNISS Con;1ete?* No. 5 .!Y w.R. PATON: (Fasuming). 6 C Please explain your answer. 7 F. Pight now, as I sit here, the on-sits g 2otechnical 8 soils engineer that we have at the site does ce t perforn 9 field tests. He directs field tests, but he does not to perform field tests. 11 0 What you are saying is you are saying you are not 12 in compliance with that right now? 13 A That is correct. As. stated the wa y it is stated. 14 0
~~n what way are you not in een;11ance with that 15 righ t now?~~
16 A I just stated that. That the on-site geotechnical 17 soils engineer does not perf orm the actual tests. He 18 directs those tests. 19 0 I see the words in here technical supervision -- 20under the continuous technical supervision of a qualified ~ 21 soils engineer. It would seem to me that that would not 22 : equi:e hin to perf orm the tests. If he just supervised i 23 them, that would be sufficient. 24 5R. ZAHARIN: We vill stipulate to your 25 understanding. '\\ ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 400 vmo NiA Ave. s.w., wASMNGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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..Qpn;r.1~.==.sy, --- ~ 1 OEI W!! NESS: No. 2 !! !?. PATON: (Eesuming) 3 C Was there ever a period, to your knowledge, that 4 you were not in compliance with this requirement? 5 A .With the knowledge that ! have right now? (, 6 0 Yes. 7 A Yes. 8 Q There ves a period when you vere not in compliance 9 prior to right now. Fi:st you indicated that you vere not 10 in compliance with it now. Is that co: ect? 11 A The way that that reads, that is cc::ect. My 12 interpretation of those words. Yes. 13 C You do not think you are in conpliance with it 14 n o w. Is that co: ect? J 15 A That is cc :ect. 16 C Do you have an opinion right now, based upon what l 17 you know now, and as you sit there, that you were ever in 18 compliance with this requirement? 4 l 19 A No. c 20 MR. PATON: ay we have the last question and 21 an'sver read back ? 22 (The last question and answer were read back by t.. I 23 th e re porter. ) l 24 BY %R. PATON: (resuming) 25 G Was your answer that you did not have an opinion? s ALDER $oN REPORTING COMPANY, INC. egg VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON o.C. 20024 (202! 554 2345
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~~s there anything inconsistent in your mind I~~
' 7 between.-- is there anything inconsistent in your statement 8 that you are not now in compliance with this requirement and 9 that you have never been in compliance with this requirement 10 and you are permitting work to continue? 11 A Could ! have that read back again? 1 12 (The pending question was read by the reporter.) 13 .t!I WITNESE: Eased on the discussion on that 14 particular section, it appears to me just today in this 15 diseassion that we are not in compliance with the words 16 specifically that the on-site geotechnical soils engineer is 17 perf orming the test. 18 SY NR. PATON: (r esumin g ) 19 C Who is performing the test? 20 A U. S. Testing personnel are performing the tests. 4 ~ 21 C Y:u do now have an on-site soils engineer? i 22 A Yes. l i 23 Q Are there any filling operations being performed 24right now? 25 A Yes.
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1 Q 'J h a t are they? 2 1 I do not know the specific locations of these 3 placements. 4 C Do you know -- strike th'a t. 5 How many qualified soils engineers are on the site i 6 :ight now? 7 A To meet that requirement, one. 8 C !s there another or others for some other purpcse? 9 A There is one person that is at the site pa rt-time t 10 and tha t is very limited right now. That is a man who is 11 basically stationed in Ann Arbor. 12 C Oo you know his n,ame? 13 A
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14 C He is a qualified scils engineer? i 15 A Yes. 1 16 Q He is en the site,sometimes? 17 A Yes. 18 Q !s there another qualified soils engineer that is { 19 on the site? 20 A Yes. 21 0 !aybe more than Wanzeck ? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Tairly continuously? 24 A All the tise. l 25 C What is the name of the man who is there all the i l l i j ,s ALDERSON REPoRTWG COMPANY. INC. I i 400 VIROWIA AVE. 5.W., WASHtNGTON. 0.C. 20024 (202) 554-2348
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a. 173 1 time? l l 2 A Karl X1einhart. 3 0 To you knowledge, does he supervise any filling 4 operations that are going on right now? i 5 A Yes. 6 O Does he do that continuously? 7 A Yes. l 8 Q Is U.S. Testing performing in-place density tests? l l 9 A Yes. 10 Q Does %:. Kleinhart supervise the testing perfo rmed 11by U.S. !* sting? 12 A I don't know what you mean by supervise. 13 y
~~vould suggest to you that the word supervision 14 is in this last paragraph.~~
! intend it to nean it in that 15 :a nn e and let me ask if you understand it as it is stated 16 ther e. Oc you understand the question? k 17 A Yes. 18 Q '40uld you answer the question? 19 A He is one who provides technical supervision to 2 20 U. S. Testing personn el. I ~ 21 0 3:. Horn, is the reason that you say you are not 22 in com;11ance with this last parag 15 cn page 2u now relate 23 to the words who would perform.
~~11 density tests?~~
And 2dyou are saying that !. Kleinhatt does rot perform in-place 25 density tests? I l f ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC. [' 400 VIRGINIA AVE. 3.W WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345 0
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~~o you knowledge, does he supervise any filling 4 operations that are going on right now?~~
5 A Yes. 6 'Do e s h e d o th a t continuously? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Is U.S. Testing performing in-place density tests? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Ooes %:. Kleinhart supervise the testing performed 11 by U.S. Testing? 12 A I don't know what you mean by supervise. 13 y
~~vould suggest to you that the word supervision 14 is in this last paragraph.~~
! intend it to mean it in that 15 =anner and let me ask if you understand it as it is stated 16 ther e. Oo you understand the question? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Would you answer the question? 19 A He is one who ; ovides technical supervision to . 4 20 U. S. Testing personnel. 21 Q 3:. Horn, is the reason that you say you are not i 22 in compliance with this last paragraph on page 2u now relate 23 to the words who would perf ern in-place density tests?.And 24 you are saying.that 5. Kleinhart does. net perfors in-place l 25 den sity tests? ? l l l t ALDERSON AE*0RTING COMPANY, INC. 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2348 .}}

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