ML20054H125
| ML20054H125 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Zimmer |
| Issue date: | 06/16/1982 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 8206220612 | |
| Download: ML20054H125 (127) | |
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5 SCHEDULING NOTES !
TITLE: Meeting with Cincinnati Gas & Electric /Goverrunent E Accountability Project on QA/QC and Related Matters 0 E
at Zimmer SCHEDULED: 2:00 p.m., Wednesday, June 16, 1982, Public Meeting f Ei PURPOSE: The meeting is to hear statements from the utility and from intervenors on quality assurance and related matters n at Zimmer. [
t Staff briefed on this June 7,1982. I N
SPEAKERS: CG&E: i-
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William H. Dickhoner, President (15 minutes) u Accompanied by: _
L Earl A. Borgmann, Senior Vice President B. Ralph Sylvia, Vice President, Nuclear Troy B. Conner, Jr., Attorney Government Accountability Project: (15 minutes)
Tom Devine, Counsel for Miami Valley Power Project Accompanied by:
David Jones, who has worked as a senior quality assurance analyst for Henry J. Kaiser Engineers, Inc.
Richard Reiter, formerly a documents reviewer for Henry J. Kaiser Engineers, Inc.
REFERENCE:
See May 20, 1982 letter from CG&E and May 19 cotion by Miami Valley Power Project (intervenors) l 1
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NUCIJ.AR REGULATORY COMMISSION ,
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COMMISSION MEETING C
In e.A Mat:::a of: PUBLIC MEETING MEETING WITH CINCINNATI GAS AND ELECTRIC GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY PROJECT ON QA/QC AND RELATED MATTERS AT ZIMMER PAGZs: 1 thru ]26 DATE: Jund 16, 1972 _ _ _
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i DISCLAIMER i
This is arr unofficial transcript of a meeting of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Comission held on June 16, 1982 in the Cocmission's offices at 1717 H Street, N. W., wasnington, D. C. The meeting was open to public attendance and observation. Tnis transcript
- has not been reviewed, corrected, or edited, and it may contain inaccuracies.
The transcript is intended solely for general infomational purooses.
As provided by 10 CFR 9.103, it is not part of the forinal or infonnal record of decision of the matters discussed. Expressions of opinion in
- this . transcript do not necessarily reflect final detenninations or p', jbeliefs. Ho pleading or other paper may be filed with the Comission in statement or argument k3 any proceeding contained. herein,asexcept the result as the ofConmission or addressed maytoauth any'orize.
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1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
4 HEETING WITH CINCINNATI GAS AND ELECTRIC
.5 GOVERNMENI ACCOUNTABILITY PROJECT ON QA/QC 8 AND RELATED MATTERS AT ZIMMER 7
8 PUBLIC HEETING 9
Nuclear Regulatory Commission 10 Room 1130 1717 H Street, N . W.
11 Washington, D. C.
12 Wednesday, June 16, 1982 13 The Commission convened, pursuant to notice ,
( st 2 03 p.m. -
BEFOREs 15 NUNZIO PALLADINO, Chairman of the Commission 18 VICTOR GILINSKY, Commissioner JOHN AHEARNE, Commissioner 17 THOMAS ROBERTS, Commissioner JAMES ASSELSTINE, Commissioner 18 STAFF AND PRESENTERS SEATED AT COMMISSION TABLE
, 19 J. HOYLE l 20 L. BICKWIT l W. DICKHONER l 21 E. BCRGHANN B. SYLVIA 22 T. DEVINE D. JONES 23 R. REITER
, 24 AUDIENCE SPEAKERS:
i l 25 T. CONNER ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. O.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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2 1 P R0CEEDINGS 2 ;HAIRMAN PALLADINO: The meeting will come to
- 3 order.
4 We a re mee ting today with representatives of 5 the Cincinnati Gas & Electric Company to allow them to 6 brief the Commissioners on ongoing matters related to 7 the Zimmer project. We will also hear from 8 representatives of the Government Accountability 9 Project, which has been involved as counsel for some who 10 maintain a concern about the current status of the 11 Zimmer project.
12 This meeting was requested by the Cincinnati 13 Gas & Electric Company., and its purpose is. unrelated to
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14 the' ongoing Zimmer licensing licensing proceeding. 'I am 15 advised, nonetheless, that since issues regarding 16 quality assurance which are now involved in the 17 proceeding vill inevitably be discussed, an opportunity 18 for the other parties to the proceeding to respond to 19 CGEE should be provided. Accordingly, we have invited 20 the Government Accountability Project to express its 21 views.
22 I will ask the general counsel for further 23 corroboration on this point before we begin.
24 I'd also like to point out that the 25 Commission's attention has been drawn to certain matters ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON. 0.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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1 concerning the Zimmer project in its' role as supervisor .- +
2 of the NRC staff and as an enforcer of the agency's t -
3 regulations. These matters have been the subject of ;
4 ongoing investigation at Zimmer and provide the basis .J1.
4 5 for today's briefing. ,
8 The briefing is wholly outside of the c- :
7 Commission's adjudicatory role. For this reason .
8 participants a re a sked to limit their remarks to the 9 matters pertinent to the investigation and to refrain a
10 from unnecessarily extending discussion to any matters 11 at issue in the Zimmer OL proceeding.
12 I understand each of the parties has been ,
13 asked to prepare a presenta tion not to ex,ceed 15
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14 minutes. However, I believe the Commissioners would . .
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15 vant to be free to interrupt with questions as various 16 issues arise.
17 Unless any of my fellow Commissioners have 18 additional remarks, I will turn to general counsel for ; :;
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19 his advice and comments. -
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3 20 MR. BICKWIT: As the Chairman said, the 21 purpose of this meeting is non-adjudicatory. - -
22 Nonetheless, the case law is not clear that the meeting '}.
23 can take place without regard to ex parte constraints, -
24 and we've therefore assumed that the ex parte rule ,
25 applies to this meeting. c .:
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1 What the rule provides is that meetings of 2 this sort may not take place off the public record. The 3 term "off the public record" has been defined 4 functionally by this Commission to mean that matters are 5 not off the public record if other parties to the 6 proceeding are invited to the meeting and have a 7 reasonable opportunity to respond to the presentation of 8 the party to the Commission.
9 We believe a reasonable opportunity to respond 10 in this instance is provided by allowing the Government 11 Accountability Project, which filed the motion to reopen 12 which relstes to quality assurance, to previde them an 13 opportunity to respond directly to the Commission. With 14 respect to the other'Intervenors and interested states, 15 counties and cities in this proceeding, they have been 16 notified of the meeting, notified of their right to 17 attend the' meeting. They will be sent a transcript of 18 this mee ting and will be provided an opportunity to l 19 respond to anything tha t is said here before any 20 Commission action in the adjudicatory proceeding.
21 That concludes my remarks.
j 22 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Any questions or 23 comments?
24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: After all those very f
25 carefully chosen words, let me just ask whether any of ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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1 those are meant to preclude our asking questions 2 relating to any documents that were submitted in the g 3 hearing?
4 MR. BICKWIT: I don't anticipate any 5 p reclusions.
6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Fine.
7 CHAIRMAN PALlADINO: At this time, then, I 8 will turn the meeting over to Mr. Dickhoner.
9 MR. DICKHONER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I 10 have a statement which I will read, which should last 11 slightly less than 15 minutes, after which time 12 certainly we'd be very pleased, or at any time, for that 13 matter, to answer any questions that you might have.
I 14 I am Will'iam H. Dickhoner, Pr'esiden.t and Chief 15 Executive bfficer of the Cincinnati Gas & Electric 16 Company, and we're certainly plea'ed s to have this ,
17 opportunity to relate to the Commission the positive 18 steps that CGEE has taken over the past year to improve 19 the quality assurance program and confirm the quality of 20 the construction that has been previously performed.
l 21 The top management of the company is directly involved 22 with quality ma tters and is directly overseeing the many 23 improvements and corrective actions th a t I will 24 discuss.
25 Now, before proceeding I would like to ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTCN 0.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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6 1 introduce on my right Mr. Earl A. Borgmann, Senior Vice 2 President of the company. Er. Borgmann is responsible c- 3 for engineering services and electric production. With 4 him, on my left, is Mr. B. Ralph Sylvia, Vice President 5 of Nuclear Operations.
6 Now, significant changes have taken place in 7 our organization over the past year. Our nuclear 8 operations have been restructured and completely 9 separated from other company functions. The present 10 nuclear organization is comprised of four departments, 11 each directed by a manager: quality assurance, nuclear 12 engineering, nuclear services and nuclear production.
13 The four managers report to the'Vice President 14 of Nuclear Operations, who in turn reports to Mr.
15 Borgmann. The manager of the . quality assurance 16 department has extensive QA/QC experience and has been 17 with the company for approximately ten months. Under 18 his supervision, he has assembled a staff of some 212 19 quality assurance engineers, specialists, document 20 reviewers and inspectors for implementing our quality 1
21 assurance program.
22 , The augmented staff includes personnel with 23 technical expertise in the areas of radiography and 24 non-destructive testing, piping supports, velding, 25 structural design, electrical design, construction and ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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1 metalurgy.
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- Henry J. Kaiser Company, the constructor, has ,
3 airo ma*a substantial changes in its organization, with 4 the adaftion of a new construction manager andla nev 5 quality assurance manager, along w'lth the addition of ,
6 new key supervisory pers;3nel in tha quality assurance _
7 o rg aniza tio n . The Kaiser quality assurance department 8 has increased the size of its organization at the Zimmer 9 site to approximately 250 personnel.
to The company's management's total commitment'to 11 safety has led to the enhancement of-quality assurance 12 manpower and specific corrective . actions ha ve been 13 undertaken to assure full compliance with quality 14 requiremsnts. The company has directed the c6nstructor 15 to take all necessary steps to assure the complete 16 independence of its quality assurance / quality control 17 organization from the construction organization, and to 18 assure that inspectors are not intimidated or' harassed 19 in the performance of their inspections.
20 The company fully recognizes its 21 responsibility to meet the h'ighest stsadards of quality 22 within the nuclear industry. To this end, a quality 23 confirmation program was designed to systematically 24 assess those aspects of construction which Region III 25 believed to be susceptible to deviations from quality l
ALDERSON REPCRTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHW2TCN. 0.0. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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. . 8 1 requirements as a result of the weaknesses identified in 2 the quality system prior to April 1981.
3 This program was formulated on the basis of 4 detailed discussions with Region III and addresses the 5 specific design and hardware concerns the NRC staff had 6 identified in its reports. The NBC staff concurred in 7 the approach and content of our program and is closely 8 reviewing its results with company personnel. ,
9 As part of its overall program of corrective 10 action, the company has reviewed all quality-related 11 procedures for clarity, accuracy and technical content.
12 In total, over 550 procedures have been reviewed, 13 rewritten and approved by CGCE's quality . assurance 14 department. New' procedures and programs have been' 15 implemented and personnel' have been trained to the new 16 procedures.
17 During the past year, th'e quality training 18 group has conducted approximately 1400 training 19 sessions. Associated with this training and procedure 20 review program is an improved inspector certification 21 program which has been implemented to provide additional 22 assurance that personnel with quality f unctions are 23 fully trained and qualified to perform their assigned 24 tasks.
25 In order to confirm the quality of current A1.DERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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I 1 contractor inspections, the company implemented a 2 program in which its own inspectors conduct a 100 3 p er cer.t reinspection of all inspections performed by 4 Kaiser and other contractors. This program has
,~ 5 confirmed that the contractors current inspection T
m 6 programs are of sufficient competence and reliability to P
7 justify a new phase of the surveillance program to 8 monitor the contractors' inspections, which we B
9 understand will be approved by Region III.
10 In addition, the company's quality engineering 11 function ic performing a 100 ' percent review of all 12 nonconformance reports filed by Kaiser inspectors.
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13 The company has expanded its comprehensive 14 < system of planned and periodic audits to verify 15 compliance with all aspects of its quality assurance 16 program. All contractors and suppliers performing 17 quality-related functions are audited on a regular 18 basis, and increased attention has been given to the 19 auditing of vendors which supply essential equipment. A 20 program of verification of documentation generated 21 during procurament and construction has been put in 22 place.
23 Skipping down to the bottom of page 5, the 24 company has also improved its procedures for the i i
25 handling and storace of quality records. A new
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. 10 1 permanent site f acility has been constructed for their 2 handling, storage and protection. The procedures have 3 been implemented to ensure,that all quality records are 4 properly received and maintained, as well as to verify
.5 the completeness and accuracy of quality records.
6 As part of the final acceptance program of the 7 contractor's work', the quality assurance documentation 8 verification division of CGCE's quality assurance 9 department performs a review of documentation required' 10 to provide objective evidence that all were performed in 11 sccordance with prescribed requirements. Verification 12 of adequate documents precedes final turnover of 13 systems, struct,ures and components for station operation and star' tup.
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15 The company is fully confident that these 16 programs will demonstrate the effectiveness of the 17 Zimmer project's quality assurance program.
18 Now, in addition to these measures, which 19 covers current activities, the company has established a 20 quality confirmation program which addresses all 11 21 areas of concern over past quality assurance activities 22 which were identified by the NRC's Recion III. A task 23 force of engineers, quality engineers, inspectors, 24 document reviewers and clerks has been assigned to each 25 concern.
ALDERSoN REPcRTING COMPANY. INC. l 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. 0.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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6 11 1 The goal of the quality confirmation program 2 is to confirm the quality of construction of the Zimmer 3 sta tion and to ensure that any deficiencies are properly 4 addressad through engineering evaluation, analysis or 5 rework.
6 The entire confirmation program effort is 7 currently 66 percant completed. Some tasks are 8 obviously f urther along tha n others. As an example, l 9 Task IV, socket veld fit up, is now 96 percent complete, 10 with an estimated completion da te of August 13, 1982.
11 Records for some.28,277 welds have been reviewed out of ,
12 a total of 29,486. Of these, 457 lacked physical 13 evidence of disengagement and have been radiographed.
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14 From the radiograph review, only 73 appear to lack 15 disengahement, but none show any signs of cracking or 16 distress.
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- 17 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s What do you mean by 18 disengagement? Do you mean misaligned ?
19 3R. DICKHONER: Sir, when you weld a small 20 pipe, usually under two inches, into a socket weld, 21 there's a shoulder on the inside of the socket. And 22 when the welder performs the task of setting up the job, 23 he inserts the pipe until it bottoms out on the shoulder i
j 24 and then he makes a scribe mark on the pipe and he 25 withdraws the pipe a sixteenth of an inch and then ALDER $0N REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIGGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
4 12 1 performs his welding.
2 Now, when we say that there were some 457 that 3 lacked physical evidence, we could not find, out of the 4 28,000 that we looked at, we could not find the scribe 5 mark on some 457 of them. So in order to assure that 6 there was the proper gap, we radiographed these. And 7 out of those we found that only 73 lacked the gap.
8 Now, the purpose of the gap is to make sure 9 tha t as heat is applied in the velding process that the 10 pipe doesn't jam against the socket veld and crack the 11 root pass of the veld. Now, after the veld is once 12 completed and the pipe is in place, then both the pipe 13 and the socket assume the same temperature, so there is 14' really no danger of cracking from that point f.orward.
15 The only reason that you have the 16 disengagement is to make sure in the welding process 17 that you don 't have cracking. And as the radiographs 18 showed, there was no evidence of cracking in even the 19 ones that did not have evidence of engagement -- or 20 disengagement; excuse me.
21 Task I, reinspection of structural steel 22 velds, is 55 percent completed, and final completion is 23 scheduled for December of 1982. In many places the 24 company is electing to repair velds rather than obtain 25 an engineering evaluation of their adequacy. We believe ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
13 1 these velds would pass an engineering evaluation to 2 verify their adequacy for service, but we have elected 3 to make certain that these welds not be subject to 4 future questioning.
5 Several sources have suggested the 6 advisability of a third party audit. We raspectfully '
7 submit that another audit over and above the audits 8 presently being conducted is unnecessary. The 9 constructor is performing 100 percent inspection of all 10 new work, with CGCE currently performing a 100 percent 11 audit of all constructor audits.
12 CGCE is conducting the.in-depth quality 13 confirmation program for past work and is utilizing an
. 14 independent contractor to perform the bulk.of any 15 necessary rework.
to COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Excuse me. In other 17 words, Kaiser is not doing the reworks is that what 18 you're saying?
19 MR. DICKHONER: In mos't cases tha t's righ t, 20 yes, sir. That's certainly true in the case of the 21 structural steel to da te.
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.R. SYLVIA:. They did the structural steel in 23 the control room.
24 HR. DICKHONER: In the control room, yes.
25 The company believes that Region III is ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON. O.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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in 1 sufficiently aware of the particular aspects requiring 2 in-depth review that another independent audit would be 3 superfluous at best. Another audit would be 4 non-productive , time-consuming , would add to the cost of 5 the project, we believe not providing additional 6 assurance on the quality of the plant's construction.
7 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN04 Let me ask you a question 8 before you go on. You indicate on the top of page 8 9 thst, "We believe the welds would pass an engineering 10 evaluation to verify their adequacy for service, but 11 have elected to make certain that these velds would not 12 be subject to future questioning."
13 What have you done in the rework that you ,
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14 didn't do before?
15 MR. DiCKHONER: I'd like to refer that 16 question to Mr. Borgmann, who is in charge of 17 engineering.
18 MR. BORGMANN: Well, the structural welds are 19 being completely reinspected, and the initial inspection 20 to the AWS velding criteria back in the mid-seventies 21 was such that the inspectors passed most of these 22 velds. The AWS welding criteria as interpreted today 23 requires an even more stringent inspection, and most of 24 these welds have a' factor of safety of five to six in 25 the welds, and in discussing and getting interpretations ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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. 15 1 of some of these welds with Sargent & Lundy, 2 architect-engineer, there's enough factor of safety that 3 even with slight snounts of undercut and porosity or )
l 4 weld spattar and what they call cold lap, they certainly l l
5 would be given a clean bill of health for the intended l 6 service.
7 But the f act remains that under the rules of 8 the quality confirmation program we would write a 9 nonconformance report on each and every weld, and the 10 procedure to clear each and every~nonconformance report 11 caused us to make the assessmen t tha t, rather than go 12 through that process and then still have some questions 13 raised as to th's adequacy of every inch and every detail 14 of that weld, we elected to in some cases touc'h'up .
15 welds, in some cases grind off cold lap, and make those 16 welds as perfect as we can get them in the~ field, so 17 there would be no doubt of the'ir accuracy.
18 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN04 So you're avoiding some 19 of the situations that existed in the earlier welds that 20 might have required evaluation.
21 MR. BOROM ANN : That is correct.
22 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Okay, thank you.
23 MR. DICKHONER: On January 27, 1982, in 24 response -- following along in the same vein as the 25 third party audit -- on January 27, 19P2, in response to ALCERSoN REPORTING CCMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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16 1 Senator Huddleston's inquiry with respect to an 2 independent contractor handling the Zimmer audit 3 program, Mr. Dircks, Executive Director for Operations, l
4 replieds l 5 "Such outside expertise is not, in our view, 6 needed in the Zimmer matter. We are satisff.ed that the 7 quality confirmation program, monitored by the NRC, and 8 other augmented NRC inspection activities will provide a 9 full and adequate evaluation of the Zimmer to construction."
11 Now, we fully realize and recognize that in 12 the past there have been inadequacies in our quality 13 control and inspection pro, grams. We firmly believe 14 these problems are behind us. We hav'e coma'tted i to a 15 comprehensive confirmatory program which will assure 16 that the quality of workmanship already completed meets 17 the high standards required of a nuclear plant.
18 005MISSIONER AHEARNE: Excuse me. I'try to 19 save my questions, but let me just ask on that one. The 20 implication , a t lea st the inference, from that statement 21 is that any of the inadequacies have solely been in the 22 quality control and inspection. Is it then your 23 position tnat, at least as far as you know now, there 24 have been no inadequacies in construction?
l 25 HR. DICKHONER: Well, the inadequacies ALDERSoN REPCRTING CCMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
17 1 obviously in the construction are that some of the tasks 2 that we're looking at -- for instance socket veld 3 disengagement would certainly be considered an 4 inadequacy in constructions or whether the veld in a 5 beam is adequate. And these are the kind of things that 6 ve tried to describe.
7 I think the 11 tasks review certain 8 construction -- certain construction inadequacies. And 9 I'd have to put those in quotes because not all of the to time it is an inadequacy, as exhibited here in our 11 socket veld fit up program. There are other things --
12 avoiding of NR's and welder qualifications -- or other 13 tasks as part of the 11, and so these are coing to have c_ . .
14 to be addressed, and they are not necessarily pure 15 construction. These would become more or less part of 16 the quality assurance / quality control program, which 17 would be more or less cleaning up tite paperwork to make i
18 sure that you do have tra,ceability f rom the paper to the 19 physical work that was actually done in the field.
20 In closing, I certainly want to give my 21 personal assurance as President of the Cincinnati Gas C 22 Electric Company that the company will continue to 23 coo pera te with the NRC in present and any future program 24 to provide complete confidence to the public as to the 25 safety of Zimmer. I want to assure you that the quality 1
ALCERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
18 1 assurance program for the Zimmer station has commanded 2 the attention of the top management of our company, as 3 well as our board of directors, and we're firmly 4 convincei that there can be no substitute for a good and 5 aggressive quality control program, and certainly there ,
6 vill be no compromise in the safety of this plant. And 7 obviously we owe this to the citizens of the community 8 we serve, the shareholders and employees of the three 9 companies who own Zimmer, as well as the nuclear to community a t large.
11 Thank you for your attention. That concludes 12 my prepared remarks.
13 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO '
Thank'you, Mr.
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14 Dickhoner. I have,a couple of questions and then I'll .
15 turn it over to my colleagues.
16 You indicated that yo u a re h a ving your own 17 inspectors conduct a 100 percent reinspection of all 18 inspections programmed -- or performed by Kaiser and 19 other contractors. And then you said that the 20 reliability is good enough to justify a new phase of 21 surveillance.
22 What sort of experience did you find? If you 23 inspected -- made 100 inspections, did you find any of 24 them deficient? In other words, your check 25 inspections.
ALDERSoN REPCRTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHWOT3N, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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19 1 MR. DICKHONERs I understand what you're 2 saying. Earl, would you?
3 MR. BORGMANNs I think Ralph has the detailed 4 answer.
5' MR. SYLVIA: Yes, sir, I think I can address 6 that. In all disciplines except for the hanger area, 7 the second inspection, the inspection done by the'CGCE 8 inspectors, agreed with the inspections performed by the 9 Kaiser inspectors 95 percent of the time or better. We 10 have worked with Region III and we've determined that 11 the inspections are subjective enough such that if you 12 hit 95 per:ent agreement you're doing about as well as 13 you could be expected to do.
14 So except for the hanger area, we found that 15 the Kaiser inspections are more than adequate at the 16 present time, and the surveillance program that we plan 17 to pursue with Region III, which they mentioned, I 18 believe, in that meeting with you last Monday, would 19 call for some relief from doing inspections and also 20 some increase in surveillance, based on the results of 21 the new inspection. We would monitor each discipline on 22 a monthly basis and as we deviated from this 95 percent 23 agreement then we would add more inspection, add more 24 surveillance.
25 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO. You said 95 percent ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTCN, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
. l 20 1 applied to everything except for the hangers?
2 MR. SYLVIAs Yes, sir.
3 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: What was special about 4 the hangers? What was your experience with the 5 hangers?
6 MR. SYLVIA: The hangar problem has been 7 steadily improving in terms of the agreement between our 8 inspectors and the Kaiser inspectors, and I believe last 9 mon th the agreement was slightly above -- the 10 disagreement was sligh tly above 5. I think it was maybe 11 around 9. I'm not exactly sure, but it was very close 12 to 5. And it has been a steady improvement in th'a t 13 area.
(
14 . CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Is this because*the 15 measurements aren't as precise?
16 ER. SYLVIA 4 It 's more complicated work, yes, 17 sir.
18 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: You say 5 what?
19 MR. SYLVIA: Greater than five percent.
20 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: The disagreement is 21 greater than 57 22 MR. SYLVIAs Greater than 5.
23 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: But less than?
24 MR. SYLVIAs Less than 10, I believe. I 25 believe it was around 9 percent disagreement.
i ALDERSON REPCRTING COMPANY. INC.
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1 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: What sort of monitoring 2 are you going to do on the new surveillance program?
3 MR. SYLVIAs Initially, we have proposed --
4 and I believe we have close to concurrence from the 5 Ragion III inspectors, ICE office --
to reduce from 100 6 percent doing inspections to 50 percent doing 7 inspection, and on the remaining 50 percent do a 15 8 percent surveillance. And then from there we would 9 monitor each discipline on a monthly basis, and as we go 10 below the 95 percent we would increase those figures, 11 and if we meet the 95 percent we would hope to reduce 12 the dual inspections.
13 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: What do you mean? You
(~
said you would do 50 percen .t, ,do an inspection, an'd then 14 15 15 percent surveillance?
18 MR. SYLVIA: Surveillance.
17 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: What do you mean? What's 18 the difference between surveillance --
19 MR. SYLVIA: Surveillance, we would look at 15 20 percent of the other 50 percent.
21 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Right, I understand.
22 Oksy, thank you.
23 I'll ask one more question and then I'll turn 24 it over to my colleagues here. You said during the past 25 year the quality training group has conducted ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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22 1 a pp ro xima tely 1400 training sessions. What sort of 2 training sessions did you have? You said a ssociated 3 with this training a procedure review program and an 4 approved inspector certification program has been r
5 implemented.
6 MR. SYLVIA: Right. We completely rewrote the 7 procedure program after the April 8, 1981, immediate 8 action level. And the training was primarily on all of 9 the new procedures, and it was to ensure that everyone 10 understood the requirements that had been taken from the 11 codes and the requirements, ANSI requirements and 12 NUREG's and put into procedures, and it was to make sure 13 that everyone understood those new requirements and the
( - 14 new procedures.
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15 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Did this require 16 requalifi:stion of welders, for example, in various 17 positions of' welding?
18 MR. SYLVIA: No, sir. This was outside of 19 welder qualification.
20 CH AIRM AN PALLADINO: P a r ticula rly who are you 21 training, then?
22 MR. SYLVIA: Primarily the QA inspectors, both 23 Kaiser and CGEE.
24 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Was there any question of 25 qualification of the welders for various types of ALDERSCN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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1 activities?
2 HR. SYLVIA: I'm not sure I understand.
3 MR. DICKHONERs That's one of the tasks.
4 That's one of the 11 tasks.
5 HR. SYLVIA: Are you referring to the welder 6 qualification issue, which was one of the tasks? .
7 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO: Yes.
8 MR. SYLVIA: Right now what we are doing is 9 reviewing the records which support that all of the 10 welders who have worked at Zimmer since the beginning of 11 construction are qualified. And wha t we 're finding is 12 that in some cases the records don't support that the 13 welders were qualified or that they at least raise some 141 doubt. .
If And'what we are -- the way we are pursuing
'16 that is that we are looking at areas of doubt and we're 17 considering, each time we find tha t there is some doubt 18 about a welder's qualification, we are considering the 19 qualification of that particular welder to be 20 undetermined. And from that we write a nonconformance 21 report if we find that to be the case, and then the 22 nonconformance report has to be dispositioned in order 23 to determine whether or not th e welder is qualified.
24 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: How do you do -- what do 25 you do to reach a disposition?
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. . 24 1 MR. SYLVIA: The first step would be to try to 2 make a more thorough review of the records to see if we 3 could find records at the site that does document that 4 the welders are qualified. The second step -- one step 5 that would be a more sure way to prove that the welders 6 are qualified would be to maybe radiograph the first 7 production weld that that particular welder has made to 8 qualify his. Rather than having a sample weld, he would 9 simply qualify himself on the first production weld.
l 10 MR. DICKHONER4 The code allows some six 11 different ways in which a welder can be considered to be 12 qualified, and of course one is at a bench where certain r
13 tests are performed, and another which is an acceptable 14 code qua'lification is .to actually radiograph the first 15 production weld of the welder, and from that point 16 forward then it would be considered that this welder is 17 qualified to perform the work similar to the first 18 production weld.
19 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: A question, Commissioner 20 Roberts?
21 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: In your opening 22 statement you talk about the manager of quality 23 assurance program has extensive Q A/QC experience, and in 24 your letter you talk about, I guess, Mr. Sylvia's 25 background. Would you just give us some sense of what ALDERSoN REPo3 TING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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s 25 1 this experience is, other projects, other positions?
2- I'm not disputing what you say. I just want 3 you to amplify.
4 MR. DICKHONER: The manager of quality 5 assurance / quality control came to us from another 6 project, and he reports directly to Mr . Sylvia, who had 7 experience at VEPCO, some 19 years of nuclear experience 8 prior to coming aboard at our company.
9 And Ralph, I would appreciate it if you would 10 explain Mr. Seger's, who is the manager of quality 11 assurance, background.
12 ER. SYLVIA: Would you like more detail?
13 MR. DICKHONER: Well, give them a little.
14 MR. SYLVIA: Okay. Well, my educational 15 requirement -- my educational status is I have a B.S.
16 degree in electrical engineering and a graduate degree 17 in nuclear engineering. I have a senior reactor 18 operator's license on two pressurized water reactors, 19 and I have qualified f or a reactor operator's license on 20 a third pressurized water reactor through the 21 Westinghouse reactor training program.
22 Since August of 1967, my work has been 23 involved with nuclear on a full-time basis. Prior to 24 thst it was not full-time, but I did have some 25 involvement through VEPCO's participation in the heavy ALDERSON REPCRTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, O.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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2 Segers has, I believe, about 12 years of total 3 experience. He has a master's, degree in nuclear 4 engineering. He has eight years in the Navy, I 5 believe. I'm not sure of the exact number, but this is 6 very close. Eight years in the Navy.
7 He has about three years of construction 8 experience at Marble Hill and about two and one-half 9 years of experience in an operating QA organization at 10 Trojan in Portland.
11 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: I have no more 12 questions.
13 COHHISSIONER.AHEARNE: M r. Dickhoner,'just to
( 14 clar'ify,'this meeting was at your request , is that .
15 correct?
16 MR. DICKHONER: That's correct.
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Coul'd you say a few 18 words as to what you hope to accomplish by the meeting?
19 Was it that you did not think we were getting the 20 straight picture from the region or what?
21 HR. DICKHONER: Well, I wouldn't say that.
22 But I think that this has been such a visible plant that 23 we thcught it would be very useful at least to be able 24 to sit down across the table and see who's responsible 25 for this operation. And hopefully we have accomplished ALCERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,!NC.
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. 27 1 that, and at the same time to give you some flavor for 2 what we have done. And we think we have undertaken a 3 massive effort here to turn this project around and to l
4 give this Commission the assurance that this project has I 5 the top attention of management. I think that's 6 certainly the reason why we 're here.
7 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I see.
8 Given that it was at your request, then, let .
9 me ask a few questions which, had I asked you to come, 10 might not be necessarily inappropriate.
11 You just said it's a massive ef fort to turn it 12 around. Is it your view that there really were 13 significant problems? let ne ask it somewhat 14 differently. Some people have suggested that the 15 dif ficulties are much more ones of paperwork that of 16 substance, and that the problems are related only to the 17 fact that the NRC has a lot of regulations and 18 consequently that there might, in the urgency to get a 19 construction project done, have been some cases where 20 paper trails weren 't developed adequately.
21 But the issue has been raised tha t perha ps 22 there really have been no problems as far as the l 23 con struction is concerned.
1 i 24 MR. DICKHONER: Well, that's a big question 25 and I 'll try to answer it. I think what we have seen so ALDERSON REPCRTING COMPANY. INC.
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28 1 far of the confirmatory program, they really have not 2 found any serious hardware problems. I don't think 3 there 's bean a problem up there that we have found that 4 ve could say really impacted on the safety of the 5 ' plant.
I 6 Now, obviously the program is not completed.
7 We don't know what we're going to find as we go down the 8 road. But the sampling in every one of these tasks is 9 at some level of completion and to this point we have 10 not really found a structural situation which would put 11 that plarit in jeopardy.
12 Certainly the paperwork is the problem. The
. 13 paper trail going from the' supplier to how that piece of 14 equipment was installed a,nd the work that was done on 15 it, there are some gaps in that, and these are the
\
16 things that we are trying to chase down in one of the l 17 tasks. The voiding of NR's, for instance, which is one l
18 of the tasks, and welder qualifications, which we l 19 mentioned before, certainly -- '
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Now, stay with the 21 tasks that you have.
22 MR. DICKHONER: Okay. I think the problem 23 goes back to the fact that this plant has been under 24 construction since basically 1971. I mean, there was a 25 start, there was a stop. Calvert Cliffs came along and ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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. 29 1 we started up again. And there's'been a whole series of 2 regulations and procedures that have gone on through 3
this 12, 13-year period.
4 And when we started out! the program, our 5 quality assurance / quality control program, was an 6 approved program by the Commissiony And we continued 7 slong those lines until it was called to our attention 8 in 1980, really, on November 20, 1980, when the report 9 came out.
10 But even then, the report said, well, there 11 are defects or deficiencies in the program, the overall 12 program is adequate. So certainly there was nothing to 13 . call to our attention that we were -- that there was
( .
14 really a serious problem until the immediate' action -
15 letter came out in April of 1981. And then that's when 16 we really acted and got ourselves completely involved in 17 the p rog ra m .
18 Under the old program that was in existence up 19 until 1974 or 1975, we acted as an overview of the 20 contractor. In other words, the contractor was doing the 21 QA/QC and we were acting as an overview role.
22 Obviously, we did not do the job that we should have 23 done, and therein lies the problem.
24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE. Let me ask a little bit 25 further. It still sounds as though the massive effort ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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30 1 that you 've described tha t you're now committed to --
2 just the sheer increase in the number of QA people that 3 the company itself has clearly makes the point that you 4 have had this massive increase. It's still possible to 5 interpret that this is a regulatory hurdle that you feel 6 that you have to jump over, rather than something that 7 you think is important toward getting the plant built 8 right.
9 HR. DICKHONER: Well, that's one of the 10 reasons why we 're here , to try to dispel the idea that 11 somehow or another tha t we're going through this to,get 12 a license. Obviously, that's the objective of anybody l 13 when they build a plant, is to eventually bring it on
('. -
14' the line and get a license to" operate it'.
15 But the main' reason that we're here is to try 18 to dispel the notion that that's the only objective in 17 doing what we're doing. I mean, I don't know how else 18 to say it other than to say that we're dedicated to 19 trying to get this plant up to the level of safety that 20 makes sense.
21 You know , wha t 's a t stake for the Cincinna ti 22 Gas C Electric Company not to do a good job -- I mean, 23 ve would litorally be jeopardizing the assets of our i 24 shareholders by not doing a good job.
25 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Okay. Let me assume, ALDERSCN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, s
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31 1 then, that it's not just because we're asking for these 2 things, that you're doing it because it makes sense.
3 Why didn't they make sense in previous years? Remember 4 now, the assumption is you're not doing them just 5 because we asked for them.
6 MR. DICKHONER: That's right. Because in 7 previous years the programs and the way these plants 8 have been built in those years didn't require the amount 9 of surveillance and the amount of effort that is put to into these plants today. I guess the fault was that we 11 relied on the contractor to do it, and as I said, this 12 was something that was accepted up until just recently.
13 'So.I guess you might say that we didn't know
( 14 any better, th a t we were not doing the job that we were 15 supposed to do.
16 MR. SYLVIA: Can I add a little bit to his 17 answer? As the officer in charge of operating the 18 plant, I certainly would not want to be involved with 19 ope ra ting a plant that wasn't pure-in terms of meeting 20 the quality requirements. And I feel that the Zimmer 21 plant, when we go through this program, which really has 22 a triple QA effort right now, triple quality assurance 23 effort -- one, one effort is that we 're going back and s . 24 looking at everything they did prior to April of 1980.
25 The second one is we have a full Kaiser QA effort. And ALDERSON REPCRTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
32 1 then the third effort is that we are looking at doing 2 e ve ry thing the third time, or the second time for work 3 that's going on now.
4 That's really equivalent to a triple QA 5 effort.
6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Mr. Sylvia, how long 7 have you been with the company?
8 MR. SYLVIA: Since -- ten months.
9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Ten months. So what 10 you're describing, though, is that you're comfortable 11 with what they're doing now.
12 MR. SYLVIA: I'm describing that I'm o
13 comfortable with what they're doing now, plus I'm saying
( 14 before we start up we'll be satisfied with what was' done 15 in the past, bscause one of'these programs that we have 16 in effect looks at the past, everything that was done 17 prior to April of 1980.
18 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Is your program going 19 to be geared to looking at everything that was done or 20 the nonconformance reports?
21 MR. SYLVIA: It will look at essentially all 22 safety-related efforts in the plant. It will verify 23 either through reinspection or through paperwork that 24 the plant meets the quality requirements. And in 25 looking at this program as I have seen since I've been ALCERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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33 1 here in these ten months, I don't think any other plant 2 in the country will have the quality proven to the 3 degree, to the high degree that Zimmer will before we 4 get that operating license.
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Well, take the relative 6 one aside for a minute. That's another type of 7 question.
8 MR. SYLVIAs Tha t's just -- that's the way I 9 feel. ,
to COMMISSIONER AHEARNE4 Yes, yes.
11 In looking, though,'f or the work in the past, 12 you said you were going to look at every safety-related 13 -- how did you define that?
- 14 -
N R . -SYLVI A's Defined looking at?
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Safety-related.
16 MR. SYLVIA: Well, our documentation program 17 would pick up any -- as we're compiling all of the 18 required document, it would pick up any --
19 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEt What I meant is, I 20 thought you wara saying, rather than looking at 21 everything, you were going to look at every thing that is 22 safety-related. And so that seemed to me that you had 23 some definition of safety-related that you were using.
24 MR. SYLVIA: Right.' Safety-related in my 25 definition would be any system that if it failed could ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
34 1 cause an accident or any system required to mitigate the 2 consequences of an accident if you had one. That's I 3 think the pretty well accepted definition of a safety 4 system.
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Well, there's a lot of 6 debate as to what safety-related --
7 MR. SYLVIA: Well, that's I think the basis 8 for the --
9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I see.
10 MR. SYLVIA 4 -- f or what was called essential 11 when Zimmer was designed.
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: When you are going, 13 though -- this' program that you have now put in place or
~
14 are going to put' i-n place .to go back and look at 15 everything that hss been done, I gather that's 16 everything that -- something like 90 percent or 95 17 percent of the total construction of~the plant, is that 18 correct?
19 That is, this new effort is the last five or 20 ten percent?
21 MR. SYLVIA: Well, the safety-related items on 22 the --
23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Yes.
24 MR. SYLVIA: -
previous 90 percent, that's 25 true, which is probably less than half of the total ALDERSCN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTCN, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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1 plant.
2 COMMISSION ER AREARNE: Will you at that time 3 have done the same level of checking of the past actions 4 as you will have of the current and future?e Y guess 5 what I'm really trylav to get at is, how much of this 6 checking of the past is going to be of the record and 7 how much of the past is going to be a checking <of the
./
8 actual construction? '
9 MR. SYLVIA: It's both. If the records , ' '/
10 indicate that we need to do physical inspection, then we And much of the quality #
11 do physical inspections.
12 confirmation program involves physical inspection. It's 13 not just a paper check.
(- 14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: You 've been there now .'
15 for ten' months. You've had, as you explain, a lot of .
16 experience with respect to other plants. What is your-17 general conclusion or tentative conclusion at th? moment',
18 as far as the construction of the plant? 'I recognize.
19 you finished telling us that you wouldnt be comfortable ~
20 with the plant going into operation unless you were 21 comfortable wi th the total construction. But it's not 22 yet in operation. /
23 So what is your view? Is the plant -- are 24 there possible problems? ,
w 25 MR. SYLVIA: I'd say' that until we complete ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (20 0 554 1345 ,
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36 1 the quality confirmation program of course there are
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2 possible prablems. But the game 's not over until it's 3 over. But based on the indications that we 've had so 4 far, the hardware problems have been relatively minor, 5 and' the description -- or the discussion that Mr. .
~
6 Borgmann had on the control room structural beams, where 7 we are making minor repairs rather than doing this
'/ ,
'{ engineering evaluation -- we 're no t just sa ying that the 9 engineering evaluation would be okay based on past -
{P 7, j 'f0 safety 'fictors.
.t /
11 We started out doing the engineering 12 evaluation and we found out how time-consuming it was, W -
,e
>,;_ 13 and that's why we went to the minor repairs.
It was a
( .
<14 m uch simpler. approach, a much more economiral approach.
15 So as late as last Wednesday I asked the construction 16 design, engineers in Sargent & lundy, if I asked them to 17 take the worst velds that we had in the control room and
/
18 do Gn engineering evaluation to remove doubt that people
'! i 19 may._ha've - ,,it seems that some people do have some doubt 20 about whether or not they would have been structurally w h'a t would the answer be.
~
21 sound -- He said there'd be 22 no question that from a structural integrity point of 23 view the' walds tha t we 're repairing are ade qua te, would f 24 meet all'the requirements.
25 CO MMISSIO N ER AHEARNE: So I gather, then, it ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
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37 1 would be consistent; your view would be the same 2 underlying thread that at least I pick up from Mr.
3 Dickhoner's statements, that as far as you can see at 4 the moment any of the problems, or the primary problems, 5 a'r e with respect to keeping accurate and good records, 6 as opposed to actual problems in the way the plant is 7 constructed?
8 MR. SYLVIAs That's right, and then upgrading 9 the inspection to present day criteria, too. That's a 10 large part of that effort.
11 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Okay.
12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs Let me ask you -- you 13 may have answered this before, just'by implication, but 14 let me run it by you again. Yo'u've had a chance now to 15 be immersed in this whole quality control business for 16 some time. Do you feel you've been caught up in a bunch 17 of unreasonable requirements, or are these sensible and 18 reasonable requirements that need to be complied with?
19 3R. DICKHONER: Do I think they're 20 unreasonable? Absolutely not, no. It just makes good 21 sense in order to make sure that you have a well-built, 22 safe plant, and certainly these requirements make very 23 much sense.
24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Including the needs to 25 document --
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
A 38 1 MR. DICKHONER: Absolutely.
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: --
the various parts 3 --
4 MR. DICKHONER Absolutely.
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: --
of the work.
6 Let me ask you about these 212 quality 7 assurance engineers and other persons. Could you tell 8 us how many of these are CGCE personnel and contractors, 9 and how many a re assigned -- in f act , I wonder. Down 10 here you say "and inspectors for implementing our 11 quality" --
"our construction quality assurance 12 program." Did you mean " quality confirmation program"?
13 MR. DICKHONER: Well, it's both.
( 14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY[ Could you break these 15 down as to who is doing what, and which of them are CGCE 16 employees and which of them are contractors?
17 MR. SYLVIA: Okay. The answer to the first 18 question is 26, 27 people are permanent CGCE employees.
i 19 Ihe others are contract employees. Of the 212, I '
to believe 65 are working in the quality confirmation 21 program, sad the remainder are working in o ther areas 22 inspection, quality engineering, dccument review --
23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: How many of those --
24 MR. SYLVIA: -- and procedure development.
25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: How many of them are ALDERSON REPCRTING CCMPANY,INC.
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39 1 carrying on the traditional QA function, ' w hich is to 2 oversee the QA activities of the contractors, the 3 architect-engineers and the constructors?
4 MR. SYLVIAs That's around 100, I believe, in 5 that neighborhood. And these people are certified 8 according to the requirements of ANSI Standard 45.2.6, 7 and we certify them. Our management program calls for 8 CG0.E personnel -- our contractor personnel certify 9 t h'e m selve s , but CGCE personnel certify these contract to inspectors. -
11 . COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs Are the CGCE people 12 concentrated in any one of these activities ?
.13 MR. SYLVIAs No, sir. They're spread out to 14 manage the overall program. .
15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs And what happens if 16 this new phase of confirmation is approved where you 17 would back off the 100 perrent confirmation? What would 18 happen to this group?
19 MR. SYLVIA 4 We would probably try to use them 20 in other areas, and the quality confirma t' ion progra m 21 would be a very likely area, assuming we can finish that 22 program.
23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: And the main concern 24 about continuing the 100 percent checking, is it the 25 time involved or is it the number of people involved or ALDERSCN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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40 1 what?
2 MR. SYL7IA: Well, we think we've gotten to 3 the point where a surveillance program would actually be 4 a better approach.
5 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: I wonder if I could get a 6 clsrification on an answer you gave on this first page.
7 You speak about the fact that "Our organization" --
8 "Significant changes have taken place in our 3 organization." And then you talk about 212 quality 10 assurance engineers, specialists and so forth.
11 I somehow got the impression these were people 12 working for COCE. Now, if I understood the response to 13 Commissioner Gilinsky's question correctly, you said
( 14 there were on'ly 27'CGCE. Are these pitople working, 15 these additional people, are they working part of the 16 CGCE effort?
17 MR. SYLVIA: Tha t 's righ t, and they a re being 18 managed by CGCE. The leaders of the divisions or the 19 groups under the manager are CGEE personnel.
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: The other people, 21 though, I think you said they were contract. Are they 22 Kaiser or are they --
23 MR. SYLVIA: No, sir. They're from NES, SAI, 24 NIC They are reputable suppliers of inspection, CA 25 inspection type people in the industry.
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41 1 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Who is the highest 2 level CGCE person at the site?
3 MR. SYLVIA: I'm at the site about 50 percent 4 of the time. The next highest level would be the other 5 three -- four managers who are permanently at the site.
6 This would be the manager of QA, the manager of .
7 construction -- CGCE has a manager of construction also 8 -- the manager of ~ the plant, the nuclear production 9 department manager, and the manager of the engineering 10 group, nuclear engineering department.
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Any more questions?
12 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: I would like to get 13 a little b'etter sense from you of your present 14 , impressions of the magnitude of the potential rework 15 problem that you' face. You provided some informa't ion on 16 'rask IV.- In particular, I'd like your assessment, based 17 upon what you know now from the quality confirmation 18 Drogram, of the potential rework problem and the number 19 of nonconforming items, particularly for Tasks I, II and 20 III.
21 MR. SYLVIA: Well, we've talked quite a bit 22 about the structural steel problem. That's Task I.
23 24 25 ALCERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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42 1 Mr. SYLVIA: Well, we talked quite a bit about 2 the structural steel problem as task one.
3 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: That is right. And
- 4 you indicated that you are doing a lot of repairing of 5 welds.
6 Mr. SYLVIA: It is a matter of repairs 7 th o'ug h . When we way rework, we don't mean you cut the 8 weld out and put another in. There is some grinding, 9 mostly grinding and some adding of filler material. So 10 I guess that is about the only way I know how to 11 characterize the structural steel. That is expected to 12 be finished by the end of the year. On that task as we 13 make an in,spection we also make any repairs.
( -
14 Region three personnel are down there quite a 15 bi t, almost full time. They are very cloeely' monitoring 18 our ef forts in all these a reas. We have a very close 17 working relationship with them ann they are well aware 18 of what we are doing.
19 On weld quality, on tasks two and three, we 20 are really not far enough along to make project. ions that 21 would have a high degree of confidence, but the people 22 who are working on those tasks don't really see a lot of 23 hardware rework or hardware problems coming out of any 24 of these tasks at the present time.
25 MR. DICKHONER: I think there ma y be a misconception that all we are doing at the present time is identifying th e problem. We are identifying th e ,
l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINTA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
43 1 problem and also directing the problem as we go along.
2 It is a parallel path but it isn't in series.
3 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: That brings me to my 4 second question. As I understand what you have said, 5 you have basically three activities that are now going 6 on at the site. First, is the identification of 7 problems through the quality confirmation program, 8 second, is work to correct those problems and, third, is 9 your ongoing construction activity.
10 MR. DICKHONERs That is correct.
11 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: I wanted to ask you 12 to what extent those latter two activities in any way 13 adversely impact the first activity, that is, to what
( .
14 extent do the ongoing repair work efforts and the 15 ongoing construction efforts in any way detract from 16 your ability to with good confidence to identify all of 17 the problems? Is there a benefit, for example, in 18 focusing your efforts either largely or exclusively on 19 the identification of problems first and then getting 20 into the correcting phase after that, and perhaps doing 21 that to the deferral of ongoing const ru ction activities?
22 MR. DICKHONER: Well, we think it makes sense 23 to do them together, to identify the problem and fix the 24 problem because this requires a lot of scaff old'ing and a 25 lot of removing of equipment to get to the point of ALCERSON REPCRTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON 0.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 e
44 1 inspection. And from a just sheet good engineering and 2 construction practice af ter you have once identified the 3 problem it makes sense to fix it, to clean up that part 4 of the plant and move to the next area of concern.
5 The other part, of course, is that we are 6 doing parallel work in completing the existing three or 7 four percant. I think that we say that the plant is 8 approximat.nly 97 percent complete as f ar a s the physical 9 completiChr and that remaining three percent is another 10 path that we are going down which is completely 11 independent of the confirmatory procram.
12 Now we don't see with the number of people 13 that we have got and the quality, of the people that we 14 have there that this presents any problem because in 15 many cases they tre in different aress.
16 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: So there is not a 17 problem simply in ter'ms of just the magnitude of the 18 amount of work that is going on there?
19 MR. DICKHONER: I think that is correct, yes, 20 sir.
21 COMMISSICNER ASSELSTINE. The last question I 22 had had to do with your statemen on page 2, that the 23 company hsi directed the contractor to take all the 24 necessary steps to assure that quality inspectors are 25 not intimidated or harassed in performance of their ALDERSCN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
45 .
1 inspections because that really goes to the heart of'the .: ..
2 confirmation program as well as your quality assurance .,
3 program for ongoing work. .
g?
4 I wanted to ask if you had any information 5 that would indicate or lead you to believe that th ere b
- n ;
8 are continuing instances of intimidation or harassment 7 of quality inspectors at the site in the performance of :
^
8 their inspection work now?
9 MR. DICKHONER: I think the situation is 10 improving. Certainly I am sure you are all aware tha t 11 about three weeks ago we did have a water throwing 12 incident. I think we acted positive in that regard. We J'. -
13 sent all the workers home at noon that day and as a -
14 condition for re-employment or coming back after ths 15 holiday they had to sign "a statement that they ;
16 understood what harassment meant and that they -
17 understood that there was a federal penalties, both 18 punitive and a fine, and that as a condition for . j':
19 re-employment they would not in any way harass or .
20 intimidate inspectors. If they did and they were ,
21 apprehended it would mean automatic discharge f rom the >~
22 job. ' ~
23 I think seven pipe fitters refused to sign the 24 statement and they were terminated immedia tely. In ,
e 25 order to follow up on it we hired an expert criminal ALCERSON REPCRTING COMPANY,INC. ;. -
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 L - . _ _ _ _ _ . _ _ __
46 1 investigator from one of the local police forces to 2 attempt to identify the individual or individuals 3 responsible for the water incident. There was an awful 4 lot made of this, that it was dirty water containing 5 human vastes and all of that.
6 Just for the record that water had been 7 analyzed and it was pure water. There was no fact 8 whatsoever that there was any urine or human feces in 9 the water.
10 Obviously we don't condone it and we never 11 have. We have certainly impressed on Kaiser the 12 company's position on harassment and intimidation of 13 inspectors. I think you have to realize that when you 14 have got 2,000 p'eople on a job,,and for the most part 15 these are all dedicated hard-working craf tsmen, but like 16 in any group of people there are going to be some bad 17 apples. Obviously these are the things that we hope 18 don't happen, and certainly I think we have taken enough 19 steps and put these people on notice that we won't 20 tolerate it. But that doesn't sa y th a t there won't be 21 another incident in the future. Certainly it 22 embarrasses us, but I don't really know how much more we 23 can do in order to stop that sort of thing.
24 Now the other type of harassment and 25 intimidation other than that can occur certainly f rom ALCERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
14 7 1 disagreements over whether the worker is doing his job 2 and whether the inspector agrees with the quality of the 3 work. These are the other kind of argumentive type 4 harassments that we get into and I am sure there is an 5 awful lot of reports of that type of harassment and 6 intimidation.
7 In many cases we are not really in a position 8 to comment because the Commission does not always give 9 us sufficient information that we can follow up on what 10 the harassment situation is, and when I am speaking of 11 the Commission I am speaking of Region III.
12 MR. BORGMANN If I might add a comment, too, 13 that we have done certain things at the site. We tri~de 14 to open up co.mmunications. We have put out 15 communication bulletins. We have had some people come 16 in to conduct team building sessions to let the key 17 people on the site, both on the OA side and the 18 construction site, discuss their problems and define 19 their role in the project and try to get everybody as 20 part of the team and move toward the goal that we all 21 wanted which is a safe plant.
22 So we ha ve done other things .to try to 23 eliminate the basic conflict which is there. Kaiser has 24 been incessantly told, as Mr Dickhoner indicated, that 25 our policy will not tolerate that, but we also are doing ALDERSCN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
48 1 more than that. We are trying to put everybody on the 2 same tesm and work together to eliminate some of the 3 basic conflicts.
4 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO Has harassement ceased 5 since the people signed this statement?
6 MR. DICKHONER: As far as the water throwing 7 and that type of harassment, we are not aware of whether 8 there is other harassment, or at least'it has not been 9 called to our attention.
10 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: Thank you.
11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY If I may just return 12 to a point. Did I understand you correctly that there 13 is no single CGEE person who is there full time who is 14 in charge of the entire project? I understand you are 15 there half the time, but we will say below that there 16 are four individuals.
17 MR. DICKHONER: Of course, these are high 18 level people. I mean, the manager of quality assurance 19 and quality rontrol is there constantly. Our manager of 20 construction is there full time. Our manager of the 21 plant and getting ready for the sta rt-up and turnover of l
22 systems is there full time. Mr. Slyvia is there half i
l 23 the time or more. Mr. Borgmann comes up almost every 24 day in the morning for severs 1 hours1.157407e-5 days <br />2.777778e-4 hours <br />1.653439e-6 weeks <br />3.805e-7 months <br /> and I try to get up 25 there on a once-a-week basis. So there is certainly ALCERSON REPCRTING CCMPANY,INC, l 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 554:2345
49 1 management awareness or presence on the job.
r 2 MR. BORGMANN: I think one thing has to be 3 mentioned. We are only 35 minutes from the site.
4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, I understand 5 that.
6 MR. BORGM ANN : I guess basically I am the 7 overall project manager as the project has evolved over 8 the years. I am up there, not full time, but I am up 9 there quite a bit. Our whole management is only 35 10 minutes from the Zimmer site from downtown and we are in 11 constant touch all the time. There is no one person up 12 there right now in charge of the whole project.
13 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: From CGCE.
(' ,
14 MR. BORGMANN: From CGCE, yes, sir. .
15 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: I think Commissioner 16 Ahearne had a question.
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Just a couple of 18 questions. Just for completeness, I notice at the end 19 of you statement, Mr. Dickhoner, you mention that there 20 are three companies who own Zimmer. Could you remind me
- 21 who they are what is the percentage?
l 22 MR. DICKHONER: I would be happy to. CGCE of 23 course is the applicant and we own 40 percent of the 24 plant. Columbus and Southern Ohio Electric Company is l 25 28 and a half percent.
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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50 1 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: What was the name?
2 MR. DICKHONER: Columbus and Southern Ohio is 3 28 and a half, and Dayton Power and Light Company is the 4 31 and a half percent ownership.
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Could you one of you, 6 and perhaps Mr. Sylvia would be best to comment on the 7 Ohio boiler inspection and the issues that they have 8 raised.
. ~
9 M r. SYLVIA: Any particular issues?
10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Well, I thought that 11 you had the National Board of Boiler and Pressure Vessel 12 Inspectors ---
13 Mr. SYLVIA: That is correct.
( .
e 14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: With respect to.the ---
15 MR. DICKHONER: Let Mr. Borgmann comment on 16 that. He was at a recent meeting with the State and the 17 Na tional Board so he would be more up to date on it.
18 MR. BORGMANN: This goes back I think to an 19 interpretation of the applicability of the containment 20 which is a post-tension , reinf orced concre te structure 21 with quarter inch steel iron inside of it and as to 22 whether or not when it was designed and constructed 23 whether it came under any ASP.E code and thereby under 24 the Sta te of Ohio rules and regulations, because Ohio is 25 an AS!E code state.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
. - - . .- - . - . . . - _. - . . . . - - - - - - .- .6 51 1 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS They are more than 2 that. They are more stringent, but that is not an issue.
3 MR. BORGHANN: On pressure vessels?
4 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Yes. I used to 5 manufacture pressure vessels ---
6 MR. DICKHONER: Not recently.
7 HR. BORGMANNs Not any more.
8 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Excuse me.
9 MR. BORGMANN: They adopted the ASME code in 10 about '66 and they are consistent with the ASME code.
11 When we designed and built Zimmer, the Ohio code was 12 referencing a 1968 ASME code. At that time the ASME 13 code did not address a concrete pressure vessel. In 1:4 1977 Division 2,of Section 3 of the Code did contain 15 provisions for concrete containment structures and 16 pressure vessels. So the code when it did come out did 17 distinguish betwe'en concrete pressure vessels and 18 containment structures.
19 Now our containment is designed to meet in 20 everY way the 1977 ASME code requirements because at the 21 time it was designed Sergeant Lundy made certain that it 22 meant the draft requirements of that code which really 23 exceeded the final code. But the State of Chio is nov ,
24 saying that the containment is a pressure vessel and 25 therefore should have had third party inspection during ALDERSON REPCRTING CCMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20C24 (202) 554-2345
52 1 its construction.
2 Now we have had a meeting with the State and 3 wi th the National Board and af ter some discussion the 4 conclusions are that they are basically interested in 5 the liner, even though we indicated tha t the liner is 8 not the basic pressure retaining me mb ra n e. It is only a 7 leak membrane.
8 But in any event, we proposed a program based 9 on our discussions with the state and this program will 10 allow them to review the radiographs that we have on the 11 line which amounts to 10 percent of the seams and we 12 have made particle inspection on all of the carbon steel 13 portion of the liner and we had dye penetrant paper ori
.( 14 all of the stainless steel lins port, ion of the liner.-
15 Then we also agreed to allow the state to witness the 18 final pressure tast on the containment.
17 Now that program has been given to Mr. Mylon 18 of the State of Ohio for his review. We feel that the' 19 basic program will be acceptable and he would propose to 20 utilize the National Board people to come down and 21 review the documentation and I assume also witness the 22 test along with himself. So we feel that is on the road 23 to resolution.
24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Could I ask the 25 General Counsel what authority the Sta te of Ohio has to ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
4 53 1 impose requirements on the pressure vessel?
2 MR. BICKWIT: Well, it is a matter of 3 continuing litigation outside of Ohio. As a general 4 proposition it is my view that with respect to safety 5 related activities, the purpose of which is to protect -
6 against radiation exposure, the State of Ohio is 7 preempted by the Atomic Energy Act.
8 MR. DICKHONER: If I may inject a comment 9 there. I think even the Industrial Commission of Ohio 10 is not sure whether really they do have jurisdiction.
11 In fact, they urged us to take this to court and make it 12 s test case.
13 (Laughter.)
14 MR. DICKHONER: And we are obviously going to 15 stay away from that one.
16 ( La ugh t e r . )
17 COMMISSIONER'AHEARNE: Just one last 18 question. Mr. Dickhoner, earlier in answering one of my 19 previous questions, I asked what had changed and I 20 thought you said that over the last one or two years 21 there is really a much ;reater appreciation in the whole 22 industry to do these things differently.
23 MR. DICKHONER: Yes, sir.
24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: So I would like to ask 25 Mr. Sylvia whether it is your impression that this is AWERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
- _ _ _ _ _ - _ _ ._ _ _. 1 l
1 54 1 new to the whole industry?
2 Mr. SYLVIA: I think that certainly since TMI 3 there has been a tremendous upgrade not so much in the 4 basic requirements for the regulations but in how you 5 implement those regulations. There has been a gradual 6 build-up through the years, you know. Over the last 10 7 or 12 years if you look at the reg. guide and other 8 quidances that have been generated to tell you how you 9 need them all, it really hasn't changed that much.
10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Are you saying though 11 that f or good construction practice that keeping these 12 . kinds of records and keeping track of everything that is 13 gotng on, that that is relatively new?
14 Mr. SYLVIA: I think the amount of records and -
15 the types of records and the guidance for exactly what 16 you need to do ---
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I am not talking about 18 from the NPC. A different way of saying it is the 19 standards that were applied and the techniques that were 20 applied in the building of Zimmer prior to say the last 21 year or so, are those the same that you found when you 22 got there? Is that sort of the same set that Vepco had 23 used?
24 Mr. SYLVIA: Not over the years. It was the 25 same set that they were currently using.
ALCERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
55 1 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: So you are saying that 2 Zimmer was sort of built in those previous years the 3 same way that you would find that Vepco plants were 4 built?
5 M r. SYLVIAs Generally.
6 MR. BORGMANN: I would like to comment. I 7 don't think that we are indicating that we didn't feel 8 the records were necessary. I think it is a perception 9 of who had the responsibility for keeping those 10 records. I think if we learned anything, it is the 11 utility that has to get hands-on involvement and keep 12 those records.
13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Well, yes. I think .
14 that it'is clear that you have learned that. The' '
15 is pression that I got though from what Mr. Diockhoner 16 said was that prior to recently that the industry in 17 general hadn ' t realized that. I think what Mr. Sylvia 18 is saying, or at least his impression was that Vepco 19 didn't believe it was necessary for the utility to be in l
20 charge.
21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY : I as sure we vill hear 22 about it.
23 ( La ught er. )
. 24 Mr. SYLVIA We had to start off --
l 25 (Inaudible) --
and when I say "we" now I am talking ALCERSCN REPORTING CCMPANY. INC.
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56 1 about Vepco, in December of '72 and we were involved in 2 the nuclear business. So I guess we were in more of a l
3 position to keep up as we built our second unit. And it 7- )
- 4 wasn't a matter of what was required, it was just you j 5 learned how to approach the requirements and the records 6 in general. The re co rd kee ping was all spread out.
7 There wasn ' t an organized manner to accumulate any 8 records. I would say in later plants in Vepco we had a 9 more organized method of accumulating the records, but 10 the requirements were essentially the same, and you are 11 trying to get your hands on the same types of rec'ords.
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE Thank you.
13 CHAIRMAN PAllADINO: Well, in the interest of 14 time perhap's we ought to 'erminate t this portion of the 15 discussion. We thank you very much for coming. We'are 16 interested in making sure that top management attention 17 is given to adequate construction and safe operation'of 18 these plants, and it is reassuring when we get top 19 management showing the interest at least that has 20 developed in recent months on the part of CGEE.
21 MR. DICKHONER. Thank you so much for giving
, 22 us the opportunity to appear, and I would like to extend 23 an invitation to each of you individually certainly to 24 come down and see what is going on at Zimmer because I 25 think it would be very much worthwhile.
ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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~
57 1 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: It is clear from what 2 ve have heard and are continuing to hear that there has 3 been a substantial change. Obviously though, at least 4 from my point of view, wha t I am probably most concerned 5 about is becoming confident that what vent on in the 6 past didn't have underlying it some bad construction.
7 MR. DICKHONER: I think our program vill 8 clearly will definitely prove that not to be the case.
9 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: All right. Well, at this 10 time I wonder if we might relinquish the table to the 11 representatives of the Government Accountability project.
12 Thank you very much.
13 MR. DICKHONER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
15 ' '
- (At this point in the Commission' meeting the ,
15 representatives of CGCE left the Commissioners' table 16 and the representatives of the Government Accountability.
17 Project came forward to give their presentationc.)
18 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Mr. Devine, I gather you 19 are the spokesman, or at least the initial sp ok e sm a n.
20 MR. DEVINE: Yes, sir.
21 Thank you for inviting our participation toda y.
22 My name is Thomas Devine. I am the legal 23 Director of the Government A cco un ta bility Project at the 24 Institute for Policy Studies. I am appearing today on 25 behalf of the Miami Valley Power Project, the intervenor ALOERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTCN, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
58 1 that recently moved to reopen the licensing hearings at 2 Zimmer. I will be presenting today's prepared statement.
3 Mr. David Jones on my right and Mr. Richard 4 Reiter on my left have accompanied me to help respond to 5 your specific questions.
6 Mr. Reiter worked at Zimmer as a documents 7 reviewer. He qualifications are primarily from 8 experience where he became an expert on design control 9 and traceability deficiencies through his assignments at 10 the plant.
11 Mr. Jones currently works at Zimmer as a 12 documents reviewer also for the contractor, Kaiser 13 En gine e rin g .
[ .
14 Contrary to recent public statements, however, 15 " this was not always the case. Until May Mr. Jones was a 16 senior quality assurance analyst, one of three advisers 17 'to the QA Manager at the top of the Kaiser chart. He 18 has worked as an auditor, a quality assurance engineer, 19 a quality control manager and an assistant quality 20 assurance manager.
21 He was the man Kaiser assigned last spring to 22 analyze waether the NRC wa s correct that nonconformance 23 reports were voided improperly. He was removed from the 24 project when he agreed with the NRC's findings, perhaps 25 too early. He is particularly qualified to answer your ALDERSoN REPCRTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
59 1 qu es tio n s.-
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Coul'd I stop you for a 3 moment. Could you say a word about the Government 4 Accountability Project and the Institute for Policy 5 Studies?
6 MR. DEVINE. Yes, sir. The Government 7 Accountability Project is a project within the Institute 8 for Policy Studies. ITS is what is known as a 9 think-tank in Washington. They do academic studies and 10 publish articles, research pamphlets on books, for 11 example.
12 The Goverment Accountability Proiect is 13 primarily a legal clinic, although we also work with 14 citizens organiza tions increasingly. Our goal is to 15 help employees of organizations whom are what is known 16 popularly as whistle-blowers, individuals who feel that 17 their organization is engaging in some type of 18 illegality or misconduct.
19 We review their evidence and allega tions, and 20 if we feel that their charges are significant and they 21 are on the level, we will help those individuals either 22 to defend themselves against reprisals or to pursue 23 serious investigations of the charges that they have 24 raised.. Quite routinely those individuals try to work 25 within the systen, first, before they come to GAP, and ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (702) 554 2345
60 1 that has been the case consistently with the employees 2 at the Zimmer nuclear power plant.
3 As a result, I was a bit surprised to hear 4 that the management there was taken by surprise by the 5 findings last November. Employees within the plant had 8 previously raised those issues to CGCE officials.
7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs Thank you.
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Since Commissioner 9 Gilinsky asked that question, let me ask the second half 10 of it which I was going to ask. What is you 11 rela tionship to the MVPP?
12 MR. DEVINE: We are counsel for MVPP in their 13 motion to reopen the licensing process and make certain -
~
14 contentions. We have been involved with investigating 15 issues at Zimmer in the past, however. Mr. Applegate 16 originally came to us for representation.
17 We are currently representing Mr. Jones in an 18 administrative lawsuit through the Department of Labor 19 and challenging retaliation through what we perceive as 20 a demotion to documents reviewer.
21 We have also agreed to represent another 22 individual at the plant who wishes to remain anonymous 23 at this time in case anything happens to him.
24 So we have had some experience over the last 25 few years.
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
61 1 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: But in this particular 2 situation you are the counsel for MVPP; is that correct?
3 MR. DEVINE: Yes, for purposes of today's i
4 forum, although it is a little bit confusing in my own 5 mind who we were here on behalf of, but that was I guess 6 the general explantion I received.
7 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: MVPP then is a local 8 group?
9 MR. DEVINE: Yes, it 1.?, sir. It is a 10 wholly-owned subsidiary of the Cincinnati Alliance for 11 Responsible Energy, which is the local grass-roots 12 organization.
13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: MVPP is wholly-owned? '
( . . .
. 14 MR. DEVINE: Yes sir.
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: So there are paid staff 16 people; is that wha t you a re saying?
17 MR. DEVINE: Yes, there are paid staff people.
18 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Then they have employed 19 you, GAP, to be their counsel in this preceeding?
20 MR. DEVINE: Tha t is correct, yes.
21 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: To backtrack then, what 22 was the Cincinnati group?
23 MR. DEVINE: Cin cinn a ti Alliance for
- 24 Responsible Energy.
l 25 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: That is a citizens l
l i
l l
ALDERSON REPORTING CCMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
62 1 group in Cincinnati?
2 MR. DEVINE: Tha t is a citizens organization, 3 correct.
4 MR. BICKWIT Excuse me. I think the 5 ra tionale f or the invitation related to your capacity as -
8 counsel to MVPP.
7 MR. DEVINE: Yes, sir.
8 MVPP has appreciated the recent staff 9 recommendation to reopen the licensing proceedings at 10 Zimmer. But we agree with the utility and with Region 11 III officials that those proceedings should not delay 12 ongoing investigations and corrective acti,on a t the site.
13 The issues raised in the eight new' proposed 14 contentions.in our opinion are too significant to wait 15 solely for eventual resolution by the ASLB. They 16 require immediate enforcement action as well. As a 17 result, we are preparing *a petition to the Commission to:
18 First, suspend the construction permit at 19 Zimmer; 20 Second, replace the current qualify 21 confirmation program with a comprehensive, third-party 22 reinspection program that possesses full authority to 23 identify an impose corrective action on any 24 nonconforming conditions; and 25 Third, require an independent management audit ALCERSCN 3EPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
3 .
./' 63 n ,l,_
1 or CGCE and Kaiser management, including recommendations 2 whether to replace the permanent QA'structuras with
.p 3 independent organizations administered by outside groups.
4 We will present affidavits and documentary 5 evidence to support the petition. Today, however, I 6 would like to discuss three reasons why the current 7 quality confirmation program must be replaced with an 8 alternative enforcement policy.
9 First, there are inherent structural flaws in 10 the quality confirmation program, or QCP. Last November 11 Region III's Administrator, Mr. James Keppler, concluded 12 the quality assurance at Zimmer was totally out of 13 control. He had already imposed the solution to that 14 problem in an April 8th, 198'1, imm'ediate action letter.
15 That was the C7CE administered quality confirmation 16 program. We b(lieve its structure is flawed inherently.
17 To surmatize:
18 First, the quality confirma tion program is not 19 comprehensive. It only covets issues identified by the 20 NBC in last N o iember's report. Issues missed or 21 postponed by the NRC will be missed by the quality 22 confirmation prouram.
23 Second, it does not address the causes of the 24 QA breakdown. At best it deals with specific effects.
25 Third, it does not provide a unique, ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
4 -.- - - . .y . - - . - -- . . - - . . - - - - - - -
t -
/.'" 60 7
- t, f
i el in de pe nd an t internal structure. The QCP inspectors who 2 vrite up .1Rs still funnel them back through personnel l3 from the existing quality assurance system, includin'g
[A . b iser management.. The new staff is little better than SP .a massive team of research assistants. They do not have
,,- p6 the organizational freedom to enforce their decisions.
,,. t ,
1 . 7 Fourth, it does not identify the standards and 8 criteria used to evaluate reports presented by the
( ~
9' staff. What is good enough for C",CE may be questionable 1 . ,
10 to other authorities. For example, an ASME team
'11 recently rejected a quality confirmation program appeal 12 to relax ASME codes on control of radiograph quality.
13 There was another issue in the report that contained the f . .
14 discussion on the containment liners.
~
15 Similarly, last Thursday Mr. Keppler rejected 16 COCE's assessment that the structural steel velding 17 deficiencies were insignificant and cosmetic. It is not 18 surprising that by f ar the most common disposition of 19 the NRs that have been written up from the quality 20 confirmation program has been " accept-as-is."
21 Fifth, it is still basically a paperwork 22 review. The field inspections are limited to items 23 where the paperwork is not satisfactory. Un f o rtuna tel y ,
24 the paperwork at Zimmer is a questionable foundation to I
25 screen out actual site inspections. 550,000 of last ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
7 65 1 November's fine das for fsise recordI. As a result the 2 quali'v confirmation program suffers from the same lack 3 of credibility.
4 We heard an example of ths: this morning.
5 Only 457 out of 29,000 ples socket belds were 6 raradiographed. But there had been repeated findings 7 that the previous radiographs were 1ot reliable. Yet, 8 they were the basis to decide which areas had to be 9 looked at specifically.
10 Sixth, in some cases it ma,y be too late. For 11 many items, such as vendor componen':s already assembled, 12 the utility may lose the warranty .if it breaks the seal 13 to check the quality inside'. .Similarly, despite
- k. 14 announcing programs, how can CGCE determine today that a 15 vendor had a reliable OA program eight years ago when a 16- part was purchased. According to internal Kasier 17 findings this could involve 42,000 purchases. How can 18 they establish traceability for beams bought from 19 junkyards that buy and sell scrap metals or for pipes 20 that wer cut up years ago and scattered throughout the 21 plant without keeping track of the heat numbers? How 22 can valves be damaged throughout the plant by overstress 23 durino inadequately controlled hydrostati: tests be 24 repaired now without a massive repurchase program? How 25 can irreplaceablo records, such as voided NRs that ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINtA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
66 1 identified previous problems and proof of welder 2 qualifications, be replaced when they are irretrievably 3 lost?
4 Finally, the program relies on decision-makers 5 who have s built-in conflict of interest. Every repsir 6 that CGCE approves further delays openings, increases 7 costs and documents the ef fects of deficient leadership 8 at the site. This spring the SEC approved'over the 9 utility's objections a shareholder resolution by the 10 Cincinnati Alliance for Responsible Energy to 11 investigate alleged mismanagement behind last November's 12 fine. Nearly five percent of CGCE's stockholders 13 supported the resolution. It is naive, in our opinion, 7
14 to e'xpect a manager to admit the full consequences of 15 his owd misianagement if that is the resuit the quality 16 confirmation program must produce to allay the current 17 concerns.
18 The second area or issue that we would like to 19 discuss is the empirical deterioration since April 1981 20 of the quality sssurance program.
21 There appears to be a perception that things 22 have gotten drastically better in the last year. We do 23 not believe that is the esse.
1
! 24 Despite the rhetoric, the explanation is a
! 25 lack of msnagement commitment to the quality l
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67 1 confirmation program. Last week Mr. Jones testified 2 that the new site construction manager publicly 3 announced his objective, and this is from Kaiser, to 4 return to the " pre-April 1981 modes" when Kaiser and 5 COCE had everything going for them and were building one 6 of the cheapest nuclear plants in the country.
7 The results were predictable. Hr. Jones 8 suffered the bulk of his harassment after April 1981 9 when het first, challenged inadequate quality to verification for work on items purchased from vendors 11 second , when he challenged COCE's insbility to meet the 12 audit requirements necessary for inclusion on Kaiser's 13 own approved vendor list; third, inadequate material 14 traceability and identifications fourth, structural 15 compromisas to the vendor survey's audit programs; 16 fifth, inadequate degree of independence for Kaiser 17 au'ditors; sixth, inadequate design controls to keep 18 track of revisions; and, seventh, serious flaws in the 19 quality of work by the current conpany performing 20 nondestructive examinations such as radiographs on 21 site. Those are some o'f the people who were in the 212 22 that were discussed with you this af ternoon.
23 If anything illustrates the continued 24 deterioration of quality assurance at Zimmer, it is a 25 new procedure introduced approximatey a week and a half ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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68 1 ago. This procedure known as ZAPO-5 guts the entire 2 non-conformance reporting system. It replaces NRs with 3 something called in-process inspection deficiency 4 records.
5 On May 28th Kaiser announced quite frankly 6 that the major thrust of this effort has been to provide 7 alternative means of documen, ting and resolving 8 deficiencies without using the NR process. The quality 9 confirmation program was producing up to 50 NRs per 10 week. Z APO-5 is an a ttempt to stifle this trend.
11 As it explains, NRs now will only be written 12 for deficiencies "found after fin:1 inspection or that' 13 cannot be corrected through the In-Process Inspection
( .
14 Deficiency R e co'rd . ,IID$s'shall be written 'to document 15 +hk correction of deficiencies identified luring HJK 16 inspection process, up to and including final 17 inspection."
18 Now the parallel OA procedure, QAP 16, 19 Revision 8, which was recently reviewed by the ASME does~
20 not mention IIDRs. The reason is simples while they 21 provide an alternative to NRs, they sacrifice 22 accountability. There is no provision on the TIDR form 23 to verify corrective action.
24 IIDRs are prohibited from providing procedural 25 instructions which grants unlimited discretion f or the ALDERSoN AEPoRTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
69 1 nature of corrective action. They structurally 2 eliminate the concept of OA independence from 3 construction. The authorized engineer who may be 4 responsible for the deficiencies can overrule the 5 inspector's decision to rework and only limited appeal 6 is available. In the end, final review of IIDR 7 disposition is controlled almost exclusively by the 8 Hanager of Quality Engineering. We have had as many 9 complaints and allegations about his commitment to the 10 quality assurance program as any other individual at the 11 site.
12 While ZAPO-5 permits NRs, it subjects them to 13 such a bureaucratic gauntlet that only the,most stubborn 14 inspector, anin'dividualsuchasMh. Jones' caliber,'was 15 still trying to issue NRs'under those circumstances.
16 All NRs now will be " drafts" until approved by quality 17 engineering. Then they face four levels of review by an 18 assortment of personnel, including "other 19 individuals... determined by the cognizant supervisor."
20 If it survives those cuts, only then does it go to the 21 Material Review Board.
22 If there is a dispute over disposition, during 23 the interim ZAPO-5 permits work to continue unless the
' 24 QA Manager specifically suspends it. In the meantime, 25 there are no time limits to resolve the disputes. In ALDERSON REPCRTING COMPANY,INC.
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70 1 short, under this procedure hrs are reduced to an 2 exercise in futility.
3 We believe this represents a f undsmental 4 change in the nature of internal quality control. Now 5 the premises of quality control at Zimmer require trust 6 and the good faith of the construction department. This 7 CA structural change defies all of the findings of last 8 November's report. If the Commission acce pts this new 9 approach at Zimmer as part of CGCE's reform program, it 10 will signal the rest of the nuclear industry that NRs 11 and structural independence for QA are not longer 12 mandatory.
13 .As the QA procedures at Zimmer have
(' ~
14 deteriorated, we believe the re taliation has increased.
15 We appreciate the recent efforts by CGCE to crack down 16 on dousings, for example, there. However, we wonder if 17 they are going to be vigorously endorsed in the future 18 on an ongoing basis.
19 On February 26th CGCE previously took credit 20 for a prompt and vigorous response to previous 21 harassment. They asserted that the problem had ceased.
22 We will be watching to see if it still has.
23 The third issue we would like to discuss is 24 the issue of character and competence.
25 While this is a licensing issue for the ASLB, ALDER $0N REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
4 71 1 in this forum it is an issue of credibility. In recent 2 weeks CGCE 's credibility has suffered.
3 The statements at last Thursday's 4 Congressional hearings are illustra tive. A CGCE Vice 5 President testifieds -
6 "In my opinion, the basic quality assurance 7 policy f or construction was Kaiser's. On various 8 occasions our QA Manager had differences of opinion with 9 Kaiser, but certainly did not attempt to direct or 10 shortcut the overall program. We should have had more 11 deep involvement. We should have completed controlled 12 the program. But to say that the program was not 13 -carried out'because we deliberately told K aiser to
( 14 shortcut it or not carry it out is f alse."
15 That statement was directly inaccurate. It 16 was so wrong that it is hard to believe that it was 17 offered in good faith. We*have evidence of at least 29 18 examples be tween 1971 and 1977 where CGCE directly 19 participated in establishing the QA policies, in many 20 cases over Kaiser objections.
21 Nor is their domination merely historical.
22 1sst November's NP.C report documented more than a dozen 23 additional instances. A 1981 GE audit revealed that 24 Kaiser had discontinued audits of work on GE purchases 25 at CGCE's direction.
l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHtNGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
72 1 This inaccuracy concerns a decisive premise 2 for the reform imposed by Region III last April. The 3 quality confirmation program only makes sense if CGCE 4 was truely unaware of the Kaiser policies. It is also 5 significant on another level.
6 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Which Kaiser policies are 7 you talking about here.
8 MR. DEVINE: The policies that led to the 49 9 complaints in last November's report which, as were 10 publicly explained, were policies of the contractor of 11 which the utility was largely unaware. Those policies 12 involved problems with false inadequate documentation.
13 They involved problems with harassment and retaliation
(
- 14 and they involved problems with an inadequate quality 15 assurance structure.
16 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: You mentioned policies.
'17 Policies is what I was wondering about. What kinds of 18 policies are you referring to there?
19 MR. DEVINE: Well, policies such as voiding 20 nonconformance reports for software procedural problems 21 and only limiting nonconformance as to hardware 22 problems. That would be one example of that.
23 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Okay.
24 MR. DEVINEt We also believe that this is 25 significant on another level. If CGCE officials do not ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 l
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73 1 testify in good faith to the Congress, there is little 2 reason to think that their quality confirmation reports 3 to the Commission are more reliable.
4 This inaccuracy was quite blatant in our 5 opinion. Last Saturday the newspapers published a March 6 8th, 1976, letter from Mr. Borgmann denying the funds 7 for additional QA staff. It was published because it 8 directly contradicted Mr. Borgmann 's testimony at the 9 hearing. The letter was already on the public record as 10 part of Exhibit 9 to EVPP's motion for leave to file new 11 contentions. When we submitted the motion in May, 12 CGCE's response was that it contained "nothing new."
13 We'hsva also heard last. week an announcement
( .
14 that the Justice Department has reopened, the criminal 15 investigation at Zimmer. When the probe was suspended 16 last summer, NRC's Office of Inspector and Auditor was 17 questioning CGCE management about criminal violations of 18 the Atomic Energy Act. We found that in Exhibit 52 of 19 last November's NEC report.
20 Unless the U. S. Attorney chooses not to 21 pursue those leads, we now face an unusual scenario.
22 The same organization under active criminal 23 investigation is charged with implementing a reform 24 program that may have been triggered by its own 25 deliberate misconduct.
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74 1 In our opinion, that policy does not make 2 sense. We doubt that it would be filed is a public 3 official were involved.
4 Finally, the.NRC has not issued a 5 comprehensive ban on destruction of records during the 6 qualify confirmation program. Although there is a 7 document certifica tion program, in all frankness I must 8 share with you that we have received repeated 9 allegations of documents destruction at the site. In 10 essence, CGCE now has absolute control over the evidence 11 that could be used to make a case against itself, 12 criminal or otherwise.
13 To illustra te the consequences of ,this
( .
14
+
control, last year GE auditors were only able to obtain 15 from CGCE 8 of 22 work pa'ckages requested for an audit 16 on the FEI/FEDR system. They were not able to obtain 17 any requested documents on'the electrical work.
18 In conclusion, all parties agree that public 19 confidence must be restored in the safety of the Zimmer 20 plant. A reform program administered by CGCE cannot 21 achieve that goal. Optimistic utility progress reports 22 no longer are taken seriously. Under these 23 circumstances, the quality confirmation program is 24 unfair to the utility. No matter how thorough its 25 effort, the cloud of public distress will remain.
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75 1 Region III has suggested a possible use of 2 consultants a t the end of the quality confirnation s
3 program. Like Mr. Dickhoner, we agree that the solution 4 is not to add another layer of oversight. The only 5 viable solution is to substitute a legitimate structure 6 for an 1111gitimate program.-
7 We believe that the public will no longer 8 accept a program that relies on the facts to assess the 9 strength of the henhouse.
10 Thank you. .
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Mr. Devine, there were a 12 number of things you said at. I haven't caught up with 13 all of them. I wa's trying to understand, is the
( -
14 organization'und,er criminal investigation or are there 15 specific pecple?
16 MR. DEVINE: Well, I cannot answer that 17 question, Mr. Palladino. I know that individuals within 18 the CGEE organization were being questioned about the 19 role of CGCE officials, but I can 't say who is 20 speci'fically the focus of it.
21 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: You do make the statement 22 "The same organization under active criminal 23 investigation is charged with implementing a reform 24 program tha t may have been triggered by its own 25 deliberate misconduct." That appears to give a ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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e 76 1 statement of fact and from it draws a conclusion, and I 2 wasn't able to follow whether there were facts there in 3 support of your conclusion.
4 MB. DEVINE: Only that we think it is a .
l 5 reasonable assumption that if the criminal investigation 6 concerns activities at the Zimmer site, it most likely 7 also involves organizations administering the work.
8 CHAIRMAN PAlLADIN04 You also spoke about 9 allegations, but I can't find it here. "Although there 10 is a document certification program, in reality GAP has 11 received repeated allegations of document destruction at 12 the site. In essen ce , C'GCE has absolute control over
~
13 the evidence," et cetera.
'I '
14 Well, allegations don't negessarily imply ~
15 proof.
16 MR. DEVINE: Ihat is correct, sir. We will be 17 presenting the evidence of that in_our petition. And 18 since this was a briefing about the sdequscy of current 19 enforcement, we would suggest that those issues be 20 looked into.
21 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Well, I was most 22 concerned and definitely q uite in terested , and yCu vent 23 very fast and I slmost interrupted you because it was 24 going so fast that I couldn't follow, but it had to do 25 with basically the quality assurance program, and I wish ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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77 1 I had made notes on it, where you were talking about the 2 IIDR and the NRs and the like. I guess that was about 3 page 4.
4 MR. DEVINE: Yes, sir, pages 4 and 5 in 5 particular; 5 and 6.
6 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: All right, 5 and 6. Now 7 you began by saying "Now if anything illustrates the 8 continued deterioration of quality assurance at Zimmer, 9 it is a new procedure introduced on June 2nd." It says 10 "It cuts the entire nonconformance reporting system and 11 replaces NRs." What are NRs? Are those noncompliance 12 reports?
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Noncompliance reports.
14 CHAIRMAN P5LLADINO: '"
. . . and rep 1' aces NRs 15 with something called in-process inspedtion deficiency
.16 records." You are making a statement there that is of 17 great interest to me. Could you expand a little bit 18 more on the basis for the statement?
19 MR. DEVINE: Yes, sir.
20 CHAIRMAN PAILADINO: I had trouble following 21 what led to that conclusion on your part.
22 MR. DEVINE: I would like to turn the floor 23 ove,r to Mr. Jones and M r. Reiter who have both been 24 familiar with this issue.
25 MR. JONES: I think most of the reason for ALDERSoN REPCRTING CCMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
78 1 that statement is that in February Henry J. Kaiser was 2 surveyed by the ASME. According to all literature that 3 Kaiser publishes today, they had absolutely no problems.
4 I think this stems f rom a February survey by 5 the ASME on Kaiser and the fact that after the survey 6 team went home new procedures which did not match the 7 requirements of the QA manual, which was used to do the 8 survey, are being issued. These procedures are totally 9 in violation of the QA manual that was reviewed and to certification was the basis of approving them.
11 If we could show you the ZAPO-5 procedure, it 12 says that these documents, IIDRs, will be issued, 13 i'n cluding final inspection; any time before and j' . .
14 including final inspection.. -
15 Now I have been in quality assurance for a 18 long time, roughly 20 years, and if that is not a 17 deliberate attempt to circumvent the nonconforming 18 reporting system, then I will quit.
19 CHAIRMAN PAL 1ADINO: State that again. What 20 does the IIDR say?
21 MR. JONES: This is an in process inspection 22 deficiency report. It does not receive the level of 23 review that a nonconformance report would do. It is not 24 clarified in the QA manual itself. It is not even j 25 mentioned in the QA manual.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
79 1 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: And who wrote the QA 2 manual?
3 MR. J3NE5s Kaiser. This is Kaiser's OA 4 manual and this is a procedure that was drafted after 5 the survey. -
6 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: I am having trouble. I l 7 really would like to understand this a little better.
8 Are you saying that Kaiser doesn't have the privilege er 9 the responsibility to change this manual when it thinks 10 it is inappropriate?
11 MR. JONES: Not to that effect. I wouldn't 12 think that the Commission would endorse it either. You 13 have to review the procedure. I,obviously can't show , .
k '
14 you it in detail. But you have to reviev'that, procedure 15 against the quality assurance manual of which 16 recertift:stion as the basis.
17 CHAIRMAN-PALLADIN0s Wasn't that done?
18 MR. JONES: Not to my knowledge. I don't knov 19 anybody that has done it yet. I brought this to the 20 site inspector's attention and he said he was currently 21 looking at it. Now I haven't heard anybody ---
22 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: So we don't know yet 23 whether or not that has been done.
24 MR. JONES: But it is in of f ect.
25 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: The IIDR is in effect.
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- 80 1 MR. JONES: Yes, and so is the manual.
2 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: I honestly wish I 3 understood better what you were telling me here, except 4 the general statements.
5 HR. JONES: I think if we are going to talk .
6 about qualify confirmation and policies of a O A program, 7 and of coarse that is what it is, it is a set of 8 policies. It says what we intend to do to assure 9 quality. And on that basis I would think tha t someone 10 would be reviewing these procedures before they are 11 issued because that is obviously an attempt to 12 circumvent the nonconformance reporting system.
13 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO When you say someone
( 14 should be reviewing, you mean someone other' than NRC 15 should be reviewing?
18 MR. JONES: It can be NRC or it can be ASME's 17 authorized nuclear inspector. You know, one of the 18 overseeing inspertion branches should be looking at 19 those procedures before they are ever issued.
20 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: And you assume, I l 21 presume, that that is not being done.
l 22 MR. JONES: I haven 't seen any objection to 1
23 it. It is issued. I mean, there are people working to 24 th a t thing right now. Every nonconformance report that l
25 is circumvented is a lost record so far as I look at it.
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81 1 CHAIRMAN FALLADIN04 You switched on me. We 2 are talking about the procedure and you say you don 't 3 know whether or not it has been approved.
4 MR. JONES: Well, it has been approved. It is 5 issued. It is in effect. It is being used by Kaiser 6 today.
7 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: But you didn 't know if 8 anybody had reviewed it?
9 MR. JONES: I don't know if anybody has passed 10 justment on it. I said I brought this to the attention 11 of the site residen t inspector at the station. He said 12 he was looking at it at that time. I also brought it to 13 the atyention of the authorized nuclear inspector on 18 ' site an'd -he said .he h ad no t approved it ye t'. But it is ,
15 issued and it is in effect.
16 What I am saying is why should these types of 17' procedures that are blatantly violating the CA manual, 18 why are they to be issued and effective prior to any 19 approval? What are we going to do, come back in here 20 later on and look at them and say, well, the guy didn't l 21 write a good procedure here?
22 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Well, the manual I gather i
23 was approved by the NRC?
24 MR. JONES: No, ASME just recently, which is l
I 25 an acceptable way to comply with the program I
l ALCERSON REPCRTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
- 82 1 requirements.
2 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Now you are saying the 3 manual was approved by ASME, but you are saying the 4 change was not reviewed by ASME.
5 MR. JONES: R ig'h t .
8 CHAIRMAN PALLADINos But you told the NRC 7 about it.
8 MR. JONES: I told the NRC and the huthorized 9 nuclear inspector who is the ASME inspector.
10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY4 I think he is saying 11 the change is a t odds with the manual, if I understand 12 you correctly.
13 MR. JONES: It violates it directly.
14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEa Could you compare, just 15 ' walk through an item from start to finish using the 16 previous procedure and using this revised procedure and 17 what actually would happen?
18 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Actually what we are not 19 talking about is just two basic procedures. We are 20 talking about a QA manual section versus an implementing 21 procedure. You have Henry J. Kaiser's QA manual. They 22 are numbered as quality assurance procedures.
23 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: You said these were 24 approved by ASME.
25 MR. JONES: Right, in February for ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASH 4NGToN. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
83 1 recertification. They are required to do that every 2 three years.
3 MR. DEVINE: He wants you to compare the NR 4 system of dealing with deficiencies and the IIDR system.
5 MR. JONES But I don't want him to mistake 6 that there are just two procedures. They are not of the 7 same hierarchy as documents go. The QA manual is a much 8 higher hiscarchy than the ---
9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Yes, but I am still to interestel in ---
11 MR. JONES: The QA manual that was presented 12 to the ASME and approved and was the basis f or their 13 recertification would state that you would have to write k 14 a non,confornance report. This'nonconformance report, 15 based on the disposition that was attached to it, would 16 have to receive a Material Review Board, you know, and 17 there is just any number of things that have to happen 18 after that based on what you are talking about, the 19 disposition, you know, and all this kind of thing. It 20 would require sone review and corrective action, you 21 know, and a report of that corrective action or 22 verification of it.
23 This IIDR requires that somebody put this in a 24 list of what was wrong so that the construction man can 25 look at the' disposition and correct it prior to anything ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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- 84 1 being documented. So I am saying from now on if you go 2 by the procedura you will not have another NR vritten 3 because it includes a final inspection. What they are 4 saying is these are deficiencies that we can correct 5 while it is in process, the work is in process. But as 6 far as I am concerned, the work is in process until you 7 get the license to operate it. So that circumvents the 8 NR process altogether. You do not have an NR.
9 In fact, I attended a training class on site 10 for the ZAPO-5 procedure and the man training the 11 session said good-bye to the NR point blank. Those were 12 the instructor's words.
13 CHAIRHAN PALLADIN~0: What does.an NR give you 14 that an IIDR doesn 't?
- 15 MR. JONES: It oives you a record of this 16 nonconforming item. It gives you the proper level of 17 ' review and dispositioning. It gives you a statement of 18 corrective action and cause and it is a primary record.
19 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Doesn't the IIDR give you 20 the same thing?
21 MR . JON ES : No, it does not.
22 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: It does not tell you what 23 the fault was, it doesnt tell you how it was corrected 24 and it doesn't tell you ---
25 MR. JONES: It says it is prohibited in the ALDERSoN AEPCRTING CCMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINlA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C, 20024 (202) 554 2345
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1 procedure from giving any instructions on how to fix it.
2 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: But it presumably gets 3 fixed. Now what record is made that it was fixed? See, 4 I presume an IIDE is a record because it is called an 5 in-process inspection record. What is recorded?
8 MR. JONEss Basically where you found it and a 7 very brief description of what it is.
8 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: It is necessarily more 9 brief than an NR would be?
10 MR. JONES: Oh, yes.
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Necessarily so or is it 12 just a habit?
13 MR. JONES: By the form it would be. I mean '
(.. . .
14 there is just not enough room to indicate what the 15 problem is.
18 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: You can't add more pages?
17 MR. DEVINE: Presumably you could add pages.
18 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Well, I want to make sure 19 now. You are telling some very strong implications and 20 I want to make sure I understand them.
21 MR. JONES: I would be glad to go through both 22 procedures with you step by step if you want me to.
23 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Well, I gather this is an 24 in-process inspection deficiency record that identifies 25 a deficiency. You said it describes it.
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. 86 1 MR. JONES: Yes.
2 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: All righ t, then what?
3 Does it also describe what was done about it?
4 MR. JONES: Not to my knowledge. It gets 5 closed out and dispositioned by ---
6 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Well, I gather you should 7 have some knowledge. You claiming this as, and I forgot 8 how you called it, a great deterioration of quality.
9 MR. JONES: Any time you have a OA manual that 10 states one thing and you do something else through an 11 implementing procedure which you know is not going to be 12 reviewed to the extent that your QA manual is, I would 13 say that, you know, after a survey and the team has 14 left, that is,a problem.to me. ,
15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Would you just follow 16_ that up and explain in what way?
17 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: It is a different 18 subject. I was trying to find out the difference 19 between an NR and an IIDR regardless of the approval.
20 MR. JONES: Basically'I am saying it doesn't 21 require the same level of review and acceptance.
22 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: I was asking you what do 23 you get on an NR that you don 't get on an IIDR?
24 MR. JONES: You don't get the cause, 25 corrective action and you don't get instructions to fix ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
87 1 it.
2 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Does not the IIDR also 3 include what was done about it?
4 MR. JONES: No.
5 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s It does not. Does it not 6 include anything about the quality of the fix? It 7 identifies a problem.
8 MR. JONES: I could probably give you a better 9 answer by having CGCE's management on it, which was just 10 recently conducted in which they criticized this whole 11 system of IIDRs when they found it. There was no log to 12 keep track of them such as an NR vould be. There are 13 any number of discrepancies. I am saying the basic
(- 14 p o in't is you have got a quality assurance manual and you 15 are implenenting a procedure that does not match it.
16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Could we understand 17 exactly why it doesn't match?
18 MR. JONES: It is completely different. I 19 mean if you are talking about a nonconform ance report 20 and then you are talking about IIDRs, they are 21 completely different. There is no mention of an IIDR in 22 that part of the manual.
23 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: That is what I was trying 24 to find out, and I so far haven't found out the 25 difference. The only thing I got so far was that it is ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
88 1 a record. It does describe what was found. You say 2 there is not as much room on one form as the other.
1 3 MR. JONES: It has already been considered by J 4 CG CE 's old auditors as an inadequate record by their 5 audit. l 6 MR. DEVINEs Mr. Chairman, I could summarize 7 the findings of the auditors on this. One of their 8 findings in an April 1982 audit was that IIDRs were 9 improperly being used to document veld repairs. The 10 criticism is that they did not have traceability for who l
11 did the welding, for the procedures or the revisions 12 that were .used for the welding originally. They don't.
1 1
13 identify .th.e veld filler material, size or heat block 14 number. They doit*t verify follow-up inspections. T' hey
~
15 don 't verif y acceptitble procedures to current revisions 16 were used for the corrective action. They do not 17 require approval for weld repairs or the KE-1 weld forms 18 required, quality assurance, engineering and weld 19 engineering approval before a weld can be repaired.
20 Those are examples in one particular instance where an 21 IIDR was used.
22 CHAIRMAN PALLADING: And I gather the NR does 23 include all these things?
24 MR. DEVINE: Yes, sir.
25 MR. JONES: Yes, it does.
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89 1 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Do you know what CGCE 2 did about this?
3 HR. JONES: I do not have any knowledge 4 because shortly after that I was removed from my 5 position as Senior Quality Assurance Analyst and I am 6 not a Document Review Clerk.
7 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO: Well, I still don't have 8 a good feal for ---
9 HR. J3NES: I will provide you with a copy of 10 both, if you would like, and you can have your people l 11 review it, but I think you will find exactly what I am 12 telling you is the case. It would be hard for me to 13 describe point by point what a. procedure does when you 14 are not' knowledgeable about the procedure or the forms 15 or the records and everything else. I would be here 16 explaining that to you for the next eight hours, and I 17 don't think you want to spend 'tha t much time on it.
18 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Well, I don 't know. You 19 make some strong statements and I might just be 20 interested in doing that. But I don't think it should 21 take eight hours to explain the difference between the 22 NR and the IIDR. If you have some data that shows that, 23 I would appreciate that.
24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Examples would help.
25 3R. JONES: We will get it to you.
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90 1 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEs You say that you were '
2 removed. I think Mr. Devine's statement, it says "When 3 he agreed with the NRC he was removed from the project."
4 M r. Devine, are you saying this is a statement 5 of chronological fact or are you drawing a connection?
6 MR. DEVINE: Well, there is some litigation 7 that is proceeding on this right now. So for the time 8 being I will state that we believe that was the case and 9 it is a statement of fact chronologically. Mr. Jones 10 could give you more details on it, however.
11 MR. JONES: Basically I was given 560 voided 12 nonconformance reports to review to establish the 13 validi ty of the caport, whether the problem still 14 exists, whether it has been corrected through other 15 rework, and, if it still exists, the corrective action 18 to be taken to correct it.
17 I was prematurely removed from.this assignment 18 because on several occasions I disagreed with the site 19 quality assurance manager,-then at that time M r. Phil 20 Giddings, as to how far we should go to check the 21 validity of it.
22 One case that I have stated that is in my 23 action to the Department of labor is that we had a piece 24 of pipe 20 feet long and 30 inches in diameter, outside 25 diameter. The pipe was purchased from an unapproved ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
91 1 vendor. Ihe proper paperwork was non on the site for 2 it. It was written up on an NR and subsequently 3 dispositioned to use in non-essential systems.
4 When I want to check on the material through 5 the material issuing procedure the accountability was 6 there only for two-and-half feet of what had been 7 issued. I told M r. Giddings at the tine that we should 8 investigate to where it was used and try to find out 9 ascertain where it was used and if we have any still on 10 the site, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. His comment 11 at that time was I was going t'oo far and I was removed 12 from that project. That is one case.
13 I think it is pretty clear that I validated '
14 most of them were validated NRs and should have 15 corrective action appropriate to close them out.
16 Unfortunately, I never finished the project.
17 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: And you were working in 18 QA and this was the QA Manager?
19 MR. JONES: Yes. At that time I was a quality 20 assurance engineer, contrary to the other statements.
21 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Was he a qualified 22 engineer also ?
23 MR. J3NES: M r. Giddings?
24 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Yes, your supervisor, the 25 person that you said removed you.
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. 92 1 MR. JONES: I would have to say he probably 2 was. I am not sure. I didn't evaluate him. You know, 3 I don't know what his credentials were or anything else.
4 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Well, I was trying to 5 determine whether this was d'iffering professional 6 opinions or whether it was trying to hide it?
7 MB. JONES: I will let somebody else judge 8 that. I don't want to prejudge that because I think I 9 wa s right and , if proven wrong, you know, I will agree 10 with that.
11 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: You had mentioned that 12 you had 20 years experience in QA work. Could you just 13 briefly sketch what that was?
'14 MR. J3 N ES : Yes. General Electric, the .
15 Aircraf t Components Division; the William Powell 16 Company, the Nuclear Grounds Division; the Vulcanheimer 17 Valve Company, Jerry's Tools, Incorporated , tha t is a 18 machine shop; and Kaiser. This whole span is QA/QC 19 related all the way through.
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: How long have you been 21 with Kaisar?
22 MR. JONES: I started with Kaiser on November 23 the 10th, 1980.
24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Could I ask Mr. Reiter 25 ---
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93 1 MR. REITER: I will certainly attempt to 2 answer any question you have to ask me.
3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: You are obviously here 4 for a purpose and Mr. Devine believes that you have some 5 supporting information to offer. Could you summarize 6 what that would be?
7 MR. REITER: I have perhaps some more specific 8 allegations than Mr. Jones or what Mr. Devine have been 9 alleging here. I worked as a document reviewer 10 essentially for about a year and.a half ending I think 11 in November of 1981.
12 There were a lot of clerical type of people 13 reviewing and checking for comple,teness on most
( .
14
- essential piping documentation which is what my previous 15 expertise was. I was given the job of dealing with all 16 of the problems that they had or the things that they 17 couldn't run through their little mill properly. In 18 this process I genera ted a lot of nonconformance reports 19 and identifiad a lot of problems that had slipped by the 20 quality assurance program for a long time through years 21 of review by several levels of the personnel they had 22 there.
23 I suppose specif.M 2 3 ie reason why I might
,24 be here is that I am willit-a to ea; age that there were 25 deliberate falsifications throw in front of me to keep l
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94 1 se from doing an adequate review and to mislead me into 2 accepting items in documents which were obviously 3 unacceptable and contained what I considered to be very 4 blatant gross mistakes or falsifications, whatever you 5 will.
6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: These are the kinds of 7 things that were referenced in the ---
8 MR. REITER: They are symptoms. These are 9 like specific symptoms of the general ---
10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: But these are the kinds .
11 of things tha t the NBC previous report covered which led 12 to the fine against the comp"any?
, 13 MR. REIT$Rs Yes, these are the sort of things 14 which led to'the,same thing, the traceability and the 15 inaccurate drawings and designs and things which some 16 fines were levied for, but I do not believe what I.have 17 seen in'their report saying what I believe to do is a 18 complete representation of what I said.
19 Let me correct myself the re . They have 20 reopeded, I understand, the criminal investigations and 21 such which may be dealing adequately with th i s . I don't 22 know.
23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Could you explain.
24 You said deliberate, and I don't remember your exact 25 words, but deliberate attempts to fool you in effect.
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95 1 ER. REITERs We would write nonconformances on 2 items one week and the next week when we would come back 3 we would find that several years after they had been 4 installed and when no one should have actually been 5 working on them at all, we would find codes and numbers 6 stamped into these items in subsequent weeks or color 7 codes painted on things which appeared to me to be an 8 attempt to close the nonconformances we had written or 9 to discredit us.
M) COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: You are saying the 11 documents you had worked on and made some notations on 12 had things added to them which were made to appear as if 13 those had been added earlier?
14 MR. REITER: The documen'ts',themselves were no t 15 altered 's:o much as the actual physical item in the field 16 .had identifica tion ma rk s 'a dded to it two or three years 17 after it had been accepted on a final acceptance basis 18 and put into the quality assurance vault. All of the 19 things I was reviewing came right out of the vault.
20 They were all " closed packages" that had passed all the 21 layers of review. So inasmuch as that all the 22 deficiencies that I found would be classified as 23 nonconformances.
24 CHAIRMAN PAlLADINO: Was your allegation one 25 of those that was investigated by NRC investiga tors?
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96 1 MR. REITER: Yes. I talked extensively with 2 the NBC investigators I think on four separate occasions 3 for a total of many hours.
4 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: And you were able to give 5 them the detail of ---
6 MR. REITER: I gave them as much detail as I 7 could. I told them everthing I have told everyone else 8 through the years.
9 COMFISSIONER AHEARNE: That referenced my 10 previous point that it appeared tha t the things you are 11 describing were the type of things that did lead to the 12 civil penalty, including the charge of a material false 13 statement against the company.
( . .
14 M r. Devine probably is familiar with that.
15 MR.'DEVINE: While Mr. R'eiter' spoke 16 extensively with the NRC investigators, the report did 17 not describe what was one of the cores to his challenge 18 of traceabilityf whl=h was on a surveillance report 19 known as SR-2819. That was included in the report as 20 background information, but its contents were not 21 summarized. That is one of the issues which must be 22 add ressed bef ore traceability can be determined.
23 Basically what that report stated was that Mr.
24 Reiter was forced to make questionable assumptions about 25 the traceability and heat numbers of pipe which had been ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
97 1 seccioned and could no longer be verfied that it was 2 part of the same piping. In fact, it was impossible to 3 draw the conclusions that the paperwork gave for 4 traceability on those pipes. We do not believe that 5 last November's report addressed that issue. Perh a ps 6 the ongoing investigation will cover that and that is 7 why he wanted to raise it this afternoon.
8 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Can I ask you another 9 question. You give a summary, to summarize the quality to conformance confirmation program is too late is one of 11 the issues.
12 MR. DEVINE4 Yes, sir.
13 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: In support of that you 14 give a number of questions that- again imply fact and -
15 conclusion, but I am not sure whether they are fact or 16 whether they support the conclusion. For example, you 17 say, and this is at the top of page 4, "How can valves 18 damaged out of the plant by overstress during 19 inadequately controlled hydrostatic tests be repaired 20 now without a massive repurchase program?"
21 MR. DEVINE: There is a typographical error 22 th e re . Th a t is "throughout the plant" and not "out of l
23 the plant."
24 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: All right, throughout the 25 plant. It implies that somewhere valves were damaged by l
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98 1 overstress through an inadequa tely controlled 2 hydrostatic test.
3 MR. DEVINE: What that is meant to imply is 4 that valvas very well may have been damaged through 5 inadequately controlled hydrostatic tests. What we 6 believe that we can prove is that the tests were 7 uncontrolled to much too large a degree, and that is 8 very dangerous for ---
9 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: How do you know they were 10 uncontrolled?
11 MR. DEVINE: Well, there is evidence tha t we -
12 will be presenting to the Commission, and I was 13 instructed not to make an evidentiary p re s en ta tien. ,
14 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: So in part this is an' 15 assumption that they may have been damaged by a 16 hydrostatic test that you believe to be uncontrolled and 17 for which you hope to present so5e evidence?
18 MR. DEVINE: Yes, sir.
l 19 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Feing an engineer I find 20 it very difficult to follow rhetorical statements like l 21 this as proof, and it would be helpful if you set t ,rth 1
22 really what you found, because we are interested, very 23 interested in making sure that these plants are built 24 ri g h t.
25 MR. DEVINE: We are looking forward to l
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99 1 presenting that to you.
2 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Incidentally, this was 3 only an example.
4 Go aheid, John.
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: In your petition you 6 say that, and "you" I speak now as you as the counsel 7 for MVPP, is in the midst of an intensive 8 in vestiga tion ---
9 MR. DEVINEs That is correct.
10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: --- enhanced by 11 numerous internal doc'uments. At some point you do 12 intend to. provide us with that informations is that 13 correct?
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14 -
MR. DEVINE$ Yes, sir.
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I gather that proba$1y 16 would help a creat deal ---
17 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Yes, that might help.
18 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: --- because, just as 19 the Chairman, I find that it is impossible to reach a 20 conclusion based on just statement, just as on the 21 opposite side I am not about to accept when the company 22 says that they are confident that the plant has been 23 built well, that is not enough. Similarly when you say 24 you are confident it hasn ' t been built well, that is not 25 enough either.
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1 HR. DEVINEs I think that we were requested to 2 help define the issues for you all today, and so we are 3 trying to.
4 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO It would be most helpful,
- 5 and I would be interested in what the difference is 6 between the NR and IIDR.
7 MR. J3NES I will be glad to give you a 8 summary and the procedures.
9 MR. REITERs At your convenience we would all 10 be happy to supply you with all we can, I am sure.
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: What?
12 HR. REITERs At your convenience and your 13 desire, I am sure we would all be happy to supply you
( ' .
14 'with whatever w'e1have. .
15 CHAIRM\N PALLADIN0s Well, I was specifically 16 interested in the difference between the NR and the 17 IIDR. There are other statements that sometimes becloud 18 the issue. For example, I don't know what you mean by 19 what is good enough for COCE may be questionable to 20 other authorities, and clearing up a few of those points 21 would help along the way.
1 22 3R. DEVINEs In that point we were questioning 23 what standards the nonconformance reports are being 24 dispositioned under. That was the point of that.
25 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Any other questions?
l 1
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101 1 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Yes. I wanted to ask 2 one at any rate. You said here that you think the 3 responsibility for comprehensive reinspection and 4 corrective action of all safety related work should be 5 placed with an independent organization free from 6 conflicts of interest. Just what do you have in mind 7 here?
8 HR. DEVINEs Well, we know there have been 9 third party inspections. For example, at the South to Texas project there was an independent audit of the 11 design of the plant. We also know that there are firms 12 that engage in that type of business that in fact in the 13 past have been hired by Kaiser and CGCE but could also 14 be fired by then. We beli've e that there.should be some 15 quality assurance / quality control organization.
16 I think it would be presumptious for me to 17 suggest any individual organization specifically. We 18 think that they should be chosen and have sufficient 19 freedom and independence so there wouldn't be any 20 question that if they came up with the wrong findings 21 that they would be dismissed from the site or that their 22 findings would be overruled internally.
23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Who would they report 24 to then?
25 MR. DEVINE: I think the best solution would ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
102 1 be for them to report to the Commission. That would be 2 the solution that I would recommend. I know know the 3 total range of options. Obviously they would have to be 4 working with the applicant and with the contractor to 5 implement any necessary corrective actions that they 6 recommended, but we think that report should go directly 7 to the Commission.
8 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKYa But in terms of 9 responsibility and authority, we don't build plants. Do 10 you have in mind CGCE hiring someone to conduct a 11 independent review or turning over all responsibility 12 fo r all corrective action to such an organization?
13 MR. DEVINE: There are many ways that a third
.f 14 party. program could be implemented, and I think it would 15 be premature for me to pin down any one in particular 16 that we think would be the best. We would like to'see a 17 commitment usde to that type of structural check and 18 balance system.
19 Of course, there are things off the top of my 20 head I could suggest such as the utility preparing a 21 list of outside firns and the Commission approving one 22 from the list or the utility making recommendations and I
23 the Commission approving or rejecting them or the 24 Commission appointing someone specifically.
25 I believe there is some sort of Congressional l
I t
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103 1 legislation that is pending right now that would give 2 the Commission authority to go beyond the previous 3 ground rules of quality assurance programs. I am not 4 sure of its status.
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Thank you.
6 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Jim?
7 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: I had a couple of 8 questions. Particularly you identify a number of flaws 9 that you see on pages 3 and 4 of the present quality to confirmation program.
11 MR. DEVINE: Yes, sir. '
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12 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE I take it your 13 thesis is that because of those flaws there really is no -
14 assurance that the ongoing quality, confirmation program 15 is going to identify all construction problems.
18 MR. DEVINE: On the structural level, yes, sir.
17 ' COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: I have just a couple 18 of questions about some of these and particularly as 19 they relate to your proposal for a third-party 20 reinspection program.
21 The first point, I take it your concern is 22 that the list of task areas that have been identified 23 thus far nay not identify all problem a rea s.
24 MR. DEVINE: Yes, sir.
25 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: You are in essence ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON. O C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
104 1 asking there then for a 100 percent reinspection of the 2 plant.
3 MR. DEVINE: Yes, sir.
4 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: When I read that one 5 in connection with No. 5, which is your concern about 6 relying upon a document re vie w , what you seem to be 7 asking for is essentially a hundred percent physical 8 reinspection, actually a reinspection of all equipment.
9 MR. DEVINE: That is correct.
10 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE4 Physical testing and 11 observation as opposed to ---
12 MR. DEVINE: Well, in some cases, as I stated, 13 there are legal bars to physical testing, but we are 14 asking for a 100 percent reinspection and not just a 100 15 percent review of the paperwork; that is correct.
16 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: The second item I 17 guess I really didn't understand what you had in mind 18 there when you point out that the quality confirmation 19 program does not address the causes of the QA 20 breakdown. At best the CCP deals with specific 21 effects. What is your concern and your point there?
22 MR. DEVINE: I am basically asking the 23 question why, how did this occur, what were the reasons 24 for it occurring,.was it merely because of a change in 25 regulatory policies or was it because of some I
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105 1 intentional circumvention of regulatory policies, was it 2 because there was bad advice from the architect engineer 3 and what were the causes of the problem?
4 We think that that is true of any 5 organizational reform thit you can just go after what 6 has been produced because of an improper cause. The 7 quality confirmation program really isn't an 8 organizational effort. It is simply to look at the 9 effects to confirm quality.
10 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: So in essence what
~
11 you are saying is perhaps from the standpoint of this 12 particular plant and, second, from perhaps a broader 13 perspec'tive it is important to look at how we got to 14 this situstion.. .
15 MR. DEVINE: That is right. Mr. Keppler 16 stated last November tha t the QA program was totally out 17 of control. The quality confirmation program will not 18 address the question of why, what led to that and how
< 19 did we get there.
20 COMNISSIONER ASSELSTINE: So in essence what.
21 you are saying is we need that as well as a program that 22 is focused on determining whether or not this particular 23 plant has been built or will be built in a manner that e 24 would provide reasonable assurance of adequate 25 protection to the public health and safety.
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106 1 MR. DEVINEs Yes, and that is why we included 2 the recommendation for a management audit as well as the 3 reinspection program.
4 COMMISSIONER ASSElSTINE: Items 3 and 4 5 weren't entirely clear to me. Is the gist of those that 6 you believe that the quality control function or the 7 quality control review and quality assurance review 8 function should, first, set the standards for what would 9 be a noncompliance and, second, should set the standards 10 for whatever corrective action has to be taken, and, 11 third, should have the authority to actually order that 12 corrective action? Does that cover everything you have 13 in mind for 3 and.4, or is it something else there, or 14 am I off the track? -
15 MR. DEVINE: I think that basically covers 16 it. In No. 3 we were stating that the quality
! 17 confirmation program inspectors do not have the 18 authority to enforce their decisions or even submit them 19 directly to the Material Review Boards now. They are 20 brought back into the existing quality assurance 21 program. OCP was presented as an extraordinary measure 22 of relief and in our opinion it isn 't . It is just an 23 increase in the number of staff who will be performing 24 the normal QA activities to an extent that weren't done 25 over the years that will on some level be finally done.
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107 1 Now we don't think tha t it is anything new in 2 particular, other than an increase in staff for directed 3 assignments.
4 In No. 4', this is very much a question in our 5 mind. The quality confirmation program inspectors 6 aren't the ones who review their findings. They are 7 brought back to the existing organization and under what 8 standards will they be dispositioned?
9 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: That is, I tak'e it, 10 under the present program though a documented 11 determination, at least if we use the nonconformance 12 report?
13 MR. DEVINE: Well, that is one of the reasons 14 why we started, yes, if you rely on nonconformances.
15 But if these are switched and the quality confirmation 16 program produces IIDS, you won't get the documentation 17 as to how the corrective action wa's followed through.
18 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: But at least if you 19 followed the non onformance report route you would have, 20 one, the quality control identification of the problem, 21 and, second, you would have to have a documented 22 disposition later on.
23 MR. DEVINE: That is, correct.
24 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: On point No. 6 it 25 wasn't clear to me. I understand the problem under No.
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d 108 1 6 and you may well have situations in which you have a 2 particular piece of equipment that you simply cannot 3 document is in conformance because tne records are gone 4 or a long period of time has passed. But why won't that 5 be identified under the quality confirmation program?
6 It seems to me that one possibility under the 7 quality confirmation program is that you will identify 8 items of nonconformance that you cannot document 9 conformance on.
10 MR. DEVINEs I agree with you about that, 11 sir. In this point we are trying to say that while the 12 quality' confirmation program can identify problems, it 13 can't produce miracles. The're.has got to be some sort 14 of way to Veal with these problems. -
15 Mr. Keppler at last week's Congressional 16 hearing stated that the QCP sched ule is basically for 17 identifying problems in the field and that that will be 18 extended for actually correcting them. Well, this 19 af ternoon we heard tha t those two things are being done 20 ' simultaneously and I would respectfully disagree based 21 on the information that I have received, that many of 22 th e nonconformances are piling up and that, quite 23 frankly, they don't know what to do with them.
24 Tha t is why I made this point. Witness after 25 witness has asked me what are we going to do aPout 4
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109 1 this. They don't have the answers. It may be that 2 those answers exist, but they are not going to be 3 provided automa tically by the quality confirmation 4 program. There are still some very hard questions that 5' must be answered. -
6 MR. JONES: Can I add to that for just a 7 second?
8 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: Sure.
9 MR. JONES: As I understood CGCE's comments 10 today, this quality confirmation program is only going 11 to correct those items identified previously. This is 12 not a hundred percent reinspection. This is a hundred 13 percent rainspection or justify less. My question is 14 what'is the justify less?
15 CH5IRMAN PALLADINO: I am sorry, I thought 16 they were doing a hundred percent reinspection of 17 everything that Kaiser was doing.
18 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: On the new work.
19 MR. JONES: On ' the n e w wo rk . Now it is only 20 going to correct those previous items that were 21 identified. It is not to identify problems. If it has l
22 been previously inspected and accepted it is not going 23 to pick it up.
24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: That might be the case, l
25 but that is not how at least it has been described to us.
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- 110 1 MR. JONES. Well, there were some-2 communications between Mr. Moorfield in the NRC and the 3 CGE.E people and they say the justify less.
4 COMMISSIO!!ER AIIEARNE4 One of the clear 5 questions that the Commission will be addressing is what 6 kind of a program was put in place to review the past 7 work and how adeguste was that and how adequate are the 8 proposed fixes to any changes that are deemed to be 9 necessa ry? Now it has been described to us by at least 10 our people that the initial stage of the program is to 11 go through all of what has been done and find out where 12 problems exist. Then at that stage it vil have to be 13 decided what fixes are necessary.
/ .
14 MR. DEVINE: Right. -
15 MR. JONES: We will also give you a copy of 16 the communications we have got from CGCE I think that 17 contradict thst. There seems to be some basis for 18 agreement in these communications that we are going to 19 do a justify less basis. So we will give you a copy of 20 that also. I wasn't privy to that information, I am 21 sure, when it was going on, but recently I have had a 22 chance to look at it, and we will give you a copy of 23 th a t also.
24 COMMISSIONER ASSElSIINE: Ihat covers the 25 basic questions that I had. I just wanted to make sure ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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111 1 I understood.
2 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKYa I think it was Mr.
3 Dickhoner who said that he thought there weren't, and I 4 don't remember his exact words, but any serious hardware 5 problems in safety related systems. I think that more 6 or less captures his response to Mr. Ahearne 's question.
7 Do you have a different view of the situation?
8 MR. DEVINE4 Yec. I have a drastically 9 different view of the situation. However, for me to 10 list hardwa re problems this afternoor,would be listing 11 allegatior.s and they haven't been confirmad by the NRC.
12 7. did a rather intensive review of last 13 November's report and my opinion pas that that report 14 documented signi'fican,t hardware pr'oblems. I.think it 15 all comes.down to what your perspective is and what your 16 definition of significant is. What may not be 17 significant for 3r. Dickhoner would be very significant 18 for a member of the community perhaps who doesn't have 19 his background or why may have different interests than 20 he does for the problems.
21 He doesn't think th e welding problems in the l
22 structural steel area are significant. None of the CGCE 23 representatives do. Mr. Keppler, however, did think 24 that those were significant at last week's Congressional l 25 hearings.
l ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON O.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
112 1 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: The word was serious.
2 MR. DEVINE: Serious, okay.
3 To me I think there is general agreement that 4 a number of parts of the plant need to be worked on some 5 more, and the disagreement is whether it is anything 8 that there was ever really to worry in the first place 7 anyway. There are many, many allegations that we have 8 received of hardware problems that I know the NRC is 9 looking at also, and I would pref er to wait until ther 10 have been resolved before I offer my own opinion on 11 definitions.
12 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Any other questions?
13 (No response.)
14 CHAIRMA'N PALLADINO: Well', I thank you, Mr.
15 Devine, Mr. Jones and Mr'. Reiter.
16 MR. DEVINE: Thank you, sir.
17 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: This was not organized as 18 a debste, and unless General Counsel think s I am off 19 base, I would like to see a comment from CGCE on the 20 information submitted today and, in turn, you may want 21 to comment, but this would be on the basis of the 22 transcript which I presume is being kept.
23 MR. BICKWIT: I don't have any problem with
'24 asking for a CGCE comment on the specifics raised here 25 that went beyond those specifics raised in the initial ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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113 1 CCCE presentation.
2 MR. DEVINE: My only request would be th a t 3 ge ne rally as a former debater I know that the way it 4 goes is you make a position and the other side gets to 5 rebut it and then you have a chance to defend the 6 original po sition. Unless we, too, can rebut their 7 prepared statement and transcript today we would ask for 8 an opportunity to defend ourselves.
9 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Oh, I would think that 10 any comments that they submit to us you would have an 11 opportunity also to comment on. We would not only give 12 you the opportunity but we would like to get what imput 13 you have.
14 ER. BICKWIT: Well, this is a matter that I 15 would like to speak to the Commission on.
16 ( La ught er. )
17 HR. BICKWIT We seem to be going down a road 18 that we might regret going down on a future occasion.
19 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Well, all this will be 29 subject to further advice from counsel.
21 COMMISSIONER AREARNE: It is non-precedential 22 rou are L27ing.
23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Are you .aying further 24 comment Would be written?
l 25 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Well, I would be ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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114 1 interested and I presume other Commissioners would be in 2 what CGCE has to say about all this. Since it was a 3 lengthy operation, I would expect that their comments 4 would be based on the transcript.
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I guess for myself 6 since they are right here I would just like to ---
7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I certainly have no 8 objection to having them comment.
9 CHAIRMAN PALLADINOs I was going to say maybe 10 a minute or two, but we are not going to have time to go 11 through a debate and this was not organized as a debate.
12 MR. BICKWITs If the Commission wants to hear 13 from CGEE at this point, I don't have any problem with'
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14 *that just so long that it is onderstood that there is no 15 right to a presenta tion a t this point.
16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Well, I see no 17 difficulty with hearing f rom bo'th sides for a f ew 18 minutes each till five o' clock.
19 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO No, I would like to break 20 it up before five, in about 10 minutes from no w.
. 21 ER. CONNORs Mr. Chairman, my name is Troy l
22 Connor and I am counsel for the applicants. We would 23 like an opportunity to respond to some of these 24 mischaracterizations, deliberate or otherwise, on some l
25 of these points.
l l
ALDERSON REPCRTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRG!NIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTCN, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
. . . _ . _ . _ _ . _ _ _ . ._ . . _ _ _ . . _ - 1 115 1 We would also like to respond in greater depth 2 at such time as they make any further supplementation of 3 the record as you indicated at one point, because there 4 are several things ?are that simply are nothing but wild 5 charges that are incorrect.
6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Would you mind taking a 7 few minutes. What I would really be interested in, in 8 all deference to the legal counsel, I would rather have 9 someone with the knowledge of the substance ---
10 MR. CONNOR: Mr. Co m mission e r , I do not 11 believe that lawyers make good technical' w itnesses .
12 (Laughter.)
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Why don' t we hear from 14 the company'.
15 MR. CONNOR: Would you like to take them back 16 up to the table?
17 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: No. Why don't you just 18 spend four or five minutes on any points you want to 19 make and then will give Mr. Devine and his people four 20 or five minutes.
21 MR. DICKHONER: Well, I think we would 22 certainly like to comment on the differe,nce between an 23 NR and an IIDR, and I think Mr. Sylvia would be i 24 qualified to answer that.
25 Mr. SYLVIAs Several of the comments that Mr.
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116 1 Jones asie regsriing the IIDRs are simply untrue. First 2 of all, it does not eliminate NRs. Second of all, there 3 is a record of the deficiencies found with IIDRs.
4 Thirdly, it is a system that is a hold point type of 5 inspection system.
6 CHAIRMAN PAllADINO: It is a what?
7 Mr. SYLVIA: Hold point, h-o-1-d, hold point 8 type of inspection.
9 COHMISSIONER GILINSKY Do you regard it as 10 consistent with your manual?
11 Mr. SYLVI A: All of our procedures are either 12 changed or in the process of being changed to 13 accommodate this new concept. It is only new to the 14 site, to Zimmer. It is not s new concept for.the -
15 industry. It was bought to the site by our new OA 16 manager, by Kaiser's new QA manager and other people 17 with experience from the industry. Ce put it in service 18 because we thought it would enhance communications and 19 help us with our harsssment problem. It creates a 20 little bit better working relationship with the craft 21 personnel and with the inspector. We document the 22 findings, we trend the findings, and this trend is used 23 to train the craft people and train the inspectors. We 24 try to train thes with the same instructors so that they 25 are all trained to the same requirements.
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117 1 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: You said that the 2 procedures are either conformed to the manual or are in 3 the process of being changed so that they will conform.
4 Mr. SYLVIA: I believe they are essentially 5 complete at this point in time.
6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Does that mean that at 7 some previous time while they were in use they did not j 8 conform with the manual?
l 9 Mr. SYLVIA No. The procedures are not put 10 in use until they are completed and the personnel who t
11 will use the procedures are trained on the procedures.
12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Just to pursue this 13 point, are you slying that at no . time were these ' , '.
14 procedures covering this new form of reporting out of' 15 conformance with your QA manual?
16 Mr. SYLVIA: That is correct.
17 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: Are you saying that 18 when you identify a problem that you will fill out not 19 only an IIDR but also an NR on that same problem?
20 M r. SYLVIA: No. Ihe problems that you would 21 use the IIDR to identif y a re diff erent types of problems 22 than the NR would identify. They don't require an 23 engineering solution. It is a workmanship problem.
24 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: But you would have 25 the same kind of documentation to assure that there is a ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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- 118 ,,
1 resolution?
2 Mr. SYLVIA: That is correct. We document it 3 and it is trended. As I said, the trend is used to 4 conduct future training on an as-needed basis.
5 -
COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: Is the determination 8 of the resolution, one, the resolution that is required' 7 and, two, the adequacy of the resolution made at the 8 same level as for an NR or is it made at a different 9 level ---
10 Mr. SYLVIA: The NR would typically document a 11 materials problem which would normally require an 12 engineering solution. The IIDR, the deficiencies 13 identified by it would be a workmanship type problem.
14 So the resolution for those types of problem's would be 15 made by the same types of people.
16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: In other words, at a i
17 lower level as far as you engineering organization is 18 concerned for the IIDR as opposed to the NR?
19 Mr. SYLVIA: Well, if an NR were written on 20 the same deficiency that the IIDR identifies it would 21 get the same level of review.
22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Even before?
23 Mr. SYLVIA: Right.
24 COMMISSIONER' ASSELSTINE: Would a 25 nonconforming weld be a workmanship problem or a ALDERSON REPCRTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
119 1 materials problem? )
2 Mr. SYLVIA: A nonconforming weld?
i 3 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: Yes.
4 Mr. SYLVIA: More likely if it is a 5 nonconformance repo rt it would be a materials problem 6 normally requiring an engineering solution.
7 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE: Such as might be 8 identified under task area one, for example?
9 Mr. SYLVI A: Correct. Many NRs are being 10 generated every day and every week. This did not stop 11 the generation of NRs. That is totally false.
12 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: But if that nonconforming 13 veld ha',d a void in it, would that be a workmanship kind 14 ' 'o f probl'em? ,
15 Mr. SYI VI A: If the weld were finished and the 16 final inspection after the weld was finished indicated a 17 void, then we would write an KR and i't would be an 18 engineering evaluation to determine whether or not the 19 weld had to be taken out or whatever.
20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Under what 21 circumstances would it be the other kind of report?
l 22 M r. SYLVIA: The only kind of report is in 23 process.
- 24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY
- Is this for new work l
25 then?
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120 1 Mr. SYLVIAs Right, it is for new work.
2 , COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Only for new work.
3 Mr. SYLVIA: Richt, except for a certain area e of the plant in the dry well where the structural steel 5 work under task one is being combined with new work 6 because it so-closely. relates to the new work.
\;
7 COM MISSIG H E R. ASS ELSTIN E : But with that 8 exception there would be.'no IIDRs on any nonconforming 9 item resulting from the quality confirmation program?
10 s Mr. SYLVIA: I believe that is correct. I i
11 can't think of any case ---
12 COMMISSIONER'GILINSKY: Does this conform to 13 practice elsewhere in other construction sites?
14 Mr. SYLVIA: Yes", it is. As I. indicated, the 15 ' concept was. brought to us ---
16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Other nuclear 17 construction sites.
18 Mr. SYLVIA: hight. '- ~- by our new personnel 19 who brought it from ideas that they had acquired through 1
20 their work experience at the other sites.
21 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Are there any other 22 points?
23 MR. DICKHGNER: I think we would like to 24 comment on the mischaracterizatio'n of some of these i
25 letters that were in the newspaper which were trying to s
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121 1 infer that somehow or another Mr. Borgmann was in 2 collusion with Kaiser as f ar as limiting their work 3 cvailability or performance.
4 NR. BORGHANN: I thin'k I should try to clear 5 the record up from my standpoint. I never attempted to 6 mislead anybody. My statement in front of Mr. Udall's 7 subconsittee was to the effect that the QA program at 8 Zimmer was basically Kaiser's and that we never 9 exercised the proper oversight and that is the basic <
10 cause of the problem we got into. Then letters appeared 11 indicating that I had limited Kaiser's addition of
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12 personnel on occasions, but I can assure everybody that 13 that was an attempt to shortcut the program but merely 14 to review with them the need for personnel.
15 From time to time they asked for personnel, 16 but until people are shown to be busy and until ther 17 justify the need for additional people and until some 18 request for overtime, we had the right from an 19 administration standpoint to determine how much manpower 20 they needed. But we did not direct the program and we 21 did not tell them what to do in the way of documentation 22 and things lik e tha t. It was their 0A manual.
23 So I just want to set the record straight that 24 I did not a ttempt to mischaracterize our role at Zimmer 25 or to indicate that we did not discuss with them from ALDER $oN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
e 122 1 time to time or have disagreements as to how the program 2 vss carried out. But it was their program, and that was 3 the point I was trying to make.
4 Then there is something else. I think there 5 vss a statement of Mr. Devine that people had talked to 6 us about a criminal investigation. I think he said 7 something to the effect that officials at CGCE had been 8 contacted with regards to a criminal investigation.
9 There has been no such discussion with us, to my 10 knowledge. So those are a couple of points I would like 11 to make.
12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Can I ask you a 13 related question. Mr. Dickhoner said that he was
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14 surprised I think he sa'id by the immediate action letter 15 and tha t until 'then you had no idea, well, I think you 16 said no idea, that these sorts of problems existed.
17 Were there no indications at all, even if you had a 18 small QA program? Did nothing turn up? Did you see no 19 signs? I mesn, sfter all, va are talking about, however 20 the hardware problems come out, massive deficiencies in 21 the application of the OA program.
22 MR..B3R3MANN: I think over the period of time 23 that I reviewed the inspection reports of the NRC I 24 certainly was avsre of various noncompliances that had l
25 occurred on the site. But from my discussions with l
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a 123 1 other people on other sites and from my personal 2 feelings that I never thought they were excessive.
3 I think the first time that I really get 4 seriously concerned about the program was in November of 5 1980 when we had the initial SALP review. At that time 6 ve had a seeting with Region III and that was the first 7 time that there was any indication from them that ther 8 thought that our number of noncompliances were in excess 9 of what they would consider average and that our program 10 was not up to snuff.
11 Finally I think we got a letter in February of 12 1981 with which they transmitted the SALP report and 13 indicated that while our number of noncompliances was
- 14 ra ther high, the overal program was deemed adequate.
15 So while I had concerns and while we had 16 several discussions about how to reduce the number of 17 deficiencies, I never got the impiession that we were on 18 the threshold of a terrible, terrible program.
19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Can I ask you one more 20 question. I was asking about was there a single person 21 in charge of the site and you said tha t basically you 22 were in charge.
23 MR. BORGMANN: That is correct.
24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Does that mean that 25 there are people who report to you that don't report tc ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
'N 123 1 Mr. Sylvil?
2 MR. BORGMANN: There is only one person that 3 reports to me thst does not report to Mr. Sylvia at the 4 present time and that is our construction manager. That 5 was done somewhat deliberately. Mr. Syliva does not 6 have any conflict of interest in pushing construction 7 versus quality assurance or making certain that the 8 plant is satists: tory for operation.
9 Mr. Culver, who is our construction manager is 10 the only man involved in Zimmer at the managerial level 11 who does not report to Mr. Eylvia.
12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Thank you.
13
- CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Thank you.
14 Mr. Davine, I .will give you four gr five 15 minutes to make further comments.
16 MR. DEVINE. I think that there was a rather 17 lengthy discussion of the IIDR system, and without i
18 taking out the ZAPO-5 and the quality assurance 19 procedures at Zinmer and matching up the dates and going 20 section by section we couldn't hsve resolved this in a 21 brief smount of time.
22 But I would like to compliment M r. Sylvia on 23 some very constructive changes from the IIDRs as written 24 in the Kaiser records. To my knowledge, those changes 25 were imposed today. They are not part of the paperwork ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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t s
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- 125 1 system that we documentud.
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs Literally today?
3 HR. DEVINE: Pardon?
4 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINEs I think he means 5 just in the last couple of minutes.
6 (Laughter.)
7 MR. DEVINE They were not part of the 8 paperwork system that we studied, that we went over 9 point by point. I quoted one section of SAPO-5 today 10 and we thought that it would probably be excessive to 11 quote all of the relevant sections of it. But his 12 statement is inconsistent even with the provision that 13 is quot,ed.
14 ' Secondly, with rega'rd to Mr. Borgmann's 15 ' statement that he didn't mean to mislead anyone, I guess 16 it was an unfortunate linguistic problem then for him to 17 say that he didn't overrule Kaiser beca'use the letter 18 printed in the paper did overrule Kaiser. In fact, we 19 have a number of examples, as I mentioned, over two 20 dozen examples where Kaiser was overruled, sometimes it 21 was on staffing and sometimes it was on policy and 22 sometimes it was on when to write a nonconformance 23 report and sometimes it was on requests for surveillance 24 of vendor audits.
25 Finally, Mr. Borgmann stated that there has s
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. 126 1 never been a discussion, to his knowledge, with CGCE 2 about a criminal investigation. I would direct him to 3 Exhibit 52 of last November's NRC report. Mr.3 William 4 Swearz was the CGCE official. He was in charge of 5 quality assurance,for CGCE. The Nuclear Regulatory 6 Commission 's Of fice of Investigation Inspector and 7 Auditor spoke with Mr. Swearz as part of a criminal 8 investigation. Perhaps Er. Borgmann was not informed of 9 the discussion, but it is on the record.
10 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Well, thank you very much.
11 We appreciate both organizations being here 12 and I guess we will get further information as it 13 deve' lops.
14 Thank you all for coming.
15 We will st'and adjourned.
16 (Whereupon, at 4:45 p.m., the meeting 17 adjourned.)
18 * *
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d m
UUC".ZAR sul.wi"*CET CSMF*332CN This is Oc ca.Mif7 that the attachec, pr Ceedings befers the COMMISSION MEETING 10 the 34ttar cf;. Public Meeting - Meeting with Cincinnati Gas and Electric Government Accountability Project on QA/QC and related Matters at C3C4 Cf FPCCteding: June 16, 1982 Zimmer QCC!tnC llCChet
?l3C4 Cf Proceeding: Washington, D. C.
were held as herei.: appears, anc chah this is the cri.;;1:21 :: scscr:
thersef fCr the file Cf the C--tssic=.
Mary C. Simons Offi=tal EspCrCar (~'7;ec)
( '
M, d ~r i C Rs**th Officizi EepcrOar (Sifnature) t L.
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