ML20136B097
| ML20136B097 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Zimmer |
| Issue date: | 08/09/1979 |
| From: | Bechhoefer C, Bright G, Hooper F Atomic Safety and Licensing Board Panel |
| To: | |
| References | |
| NUDOCS 7908150727 | |
| Download: ML20136B097 (339) | |
Text
.__ - _ . _ _ . _ . _ . _ _ . - -
NNk O
NUCLEAR REGUL ATORY COMMISSION
(
THE MATTER OF:
'NNATI GAS AND ELECTRIC COMPANY am Zimmer Nuclear Fac.ility)
Docket No. 50-356 O -
Place - Cincinnati, Chic Date - Thursday, 9 August 1979 Pages 2713-2042 I k j Telephone:
(202)347 3700 ACE - FEDERAL REPORTERS,INC.
OfficialReponers 444 North Capitol Street l Washington. D.C. 20001 NATIONWIDE COVERAGE OAILY '[ R 7 7908150 f
~{.-
l jwb 2713 CR 6320 ,
R/9/79 1 UMITED STATES OF A!!E2ICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATOR'l COMMI 3SION l l
\
. I In the Matter of: :
4
- l 5 Cincinnati Gas (, Electric Cor.pany : Decket No. 258 )
- 1 6 (Wm. H. Zimmer Nuclear Facility) : ;
- i
. ________________ .-. r 7
1 Cr,urtroom E05 ;
8 U. S. Federe.1 Courthot.se I 9
5th & Walnut Streets l Cincinnati, Ohio 10
- Thursday, 9 August 1579 j i i l
11 The hearing was reconvened, pu rtitant to notice l g ~o at 9:00 a.m. l
~
13 BEFOrtE :
- 14 I CHARLES BECilHOEFER, Chairman
- Y #* "3 ""'
15 DR. FRAi!K F. HOOPEE , Manter 16, GLEI.iN O. BRIGHT . Mr atber i APPEARANCES:
18 l ' .I j On behalf of the Applicant.
,9 i
TROY 3. CCNNER, .JR. , Esq. , and MARK J. NETTE1 IUniN f 20 Erg. , Conner Moore L Corbi:r,1717 Pennsylvani.c l
> Avenue, N. W., Naching tc.1, D.C. 20006 l 21 I I
- l. On behalf of the Nucl nr Regulateri Occmiscion S':sff-
-s t s.
l ~.A? IRE CO 3RENUER, EEO,, Unit?d Stater. Nuclear .
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"% !: Raquiatory C mmissf.cn, Tucingtm:, C. C. 20S53 l l
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. N.- O S-3 C11AIPM!1 E 2C1!IIO!;IT ET. : Good Itorn.i ng , ladies Jf.andgant*.smen.
i' 2.eforo ue e:srt, I'O 1...:c.3 to '.nq uire whe t f.e.: '
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3, there are any preli:ninsry r.attu u r that 1:1:' of the p1rties t'
S wish tc raise. !
7 j' Mr. *CE P'IIS AEN: do t.n ?:. cna, l' 0 Chairman, 3 ji In view cf the Bc.ard's c.r d. a r a d t.i m tin g :.u ten tion ?. 17, I ,
L ,
9(18, snc 19, a nd'. the char:. schedule ter ducovery wii-h I. ' ; .
10 regard tc Cor.t en tion 17, se vould ask thr: the Miami -
n 'I Val!.cy ?cwer Proj3ct p2t an 'ch e rmord too name of 1. heir i.
y, jl' po t anti al witns as with re gr2::d to thi.: pra.:eading, such D;
/m I' -
h a'r2 to ;c throuc.rh !a rr: al .L'. .- : ov e rv. to e. 2 :: 1 (m t o.. n
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- hn t we don ' t. -
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- j. j; .L , and .b.en put ant the nonco of tr..:c :. n ; c.e p o s i t i o2.
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g F 3er.aaps :.hac would speed th:'. r g 3 up.
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If ve wnt thrcug n the a r a l- : n. te , it weuld 1
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j re e n i t h a :. t he. tim a f o r 6 L n a c tre ; n2.'.d h a re* nassed I i
.g 1:o f re we receive 1 t h e v. n a u.: r o ho inte::r a ntories are p-g ; a c.n l.ng Ni t::c o s as .
._ r CliA.:D_N EE IIMCEFER ilcu.id i41ani Valley m..
. Sir,h to re spc nd at this h!an? 7 e ".1, ~' ' h Lak , have n
. b 3 .3 t 1 ef [. 07.3 / d .' n 3 3 $ , k I ,'*. ] ; 7 ',) A C ,
- 11' D E T.'.iWER
- ' 8 :: n o ". W re n 2 :' 3 accurata.
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,g . 9 M W . h 9 . ** . j M d w d g
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I anybody ha.z been named.
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2 MS. KOS:tX : ~M ngrso wi:h We
! M.':, E:enner. {
b 3 d got some informa : ion :frcrt some particular parson ,
L p
4g that we had named, but at to .f.:cthor th.tt person ir 3
5} going to come in and be :ur witnas:3, .I anuidn' t s ay' .
- 3 i right now, We didn't knew until. two days ago this i.
~/ 1 contention was adnittad.,
3; MR. W3'.'TE R!EH'.' s Mr. Chairnal, wo are i. a 1 ,
& bind. The Chcirman has rot Augnat I'4th ac the last 10 day for 31scovary. If de can't get b?.e nene of the !
t 11 t witness before then, ya vill b? forced :o issue a Gohn ,
12 I Don subp:e ac ' f or anyone WSc hi4 in:?crmatica , or wit ne ss as, i, .
- .;; , and bring forth any docur.ents vi t
- hl.n ?. hair possession i
J t,. , ra2. sting to Contention 17 1
l ai It wonid be orsiar to do it this wav.
I ,
g i MS. K O S I F.: I think 5 arha:ps id T.pglicanis <ould h
..;-,. [ lika to ask for a uc tion !:o ex: sad taa nima of discovery, I
j! they could do that. I uculin'.: obje :t to .: bat, 's u t I ,
l 9 couldn't s.t.y right nou. I havantt a skeil- anybody tc coma i
w ,c in. I don't even know when th a datt ci the hearinc is.
i M R ,, BRENKER: .'ir .. C r.11:n.ita ,
- would likc to 3 .
4
- . l i
- 7. ova that Mizral va llen- de rec '.:: d t-> ids r.t:ifv
- ~ thei r 7 witnesa, by teicphone, hc the art:. : .:.d to be 2: ::ca:!irmed by '.st :n : no intar A m nx,: ".uday, se th c. t O.
- .b $ .
J .
ar3 2718 I I mean, this is getting alittle bit ridiculous.
O 2 We have a lute-filed contention, a very late-filed 3 contention. The Board has admitted it, balancing
~
4 the factors. part o. the balance was the scheduling, 1
5 which the Board had to fit into the discovery schedule. l l
6 The whole claim for getting the contention 7 was that they had some great information out there 1
8 from some expert, they had comething they were going !
9 to contribute on this, and the Board relied very heavily i
lo on that aspect in their order, and the time has come {
11 to put up or shut up, as they say.
12 I believe as part of that order, the Board '
13 should stata that if a witness is not identified by :
14 ! that point, that no witness would be permitted to be l'
15{ put on by Miami Valley, absent some a:c traordinary I
g h shouing as to why that witness was not "cnown to them at A
g: this time.
I g MR. WETTERHAHU: That procedure is agreeable d
29fitotheApplicant.
20 MR. BRENNER: They've just got to get on with 21 it.. Obviously we have to take their witness ' deposition i
n]inthiscase.
1 (Board conferring.)
33] i i)
E CHA22 MAN 3EC330EFER: I would lika to inquire l why the first date taat you mentioned is so .scen, !
E ]i , i 0 MOR 03lgg l
t cr4 2719 1
We set August 24th, and that's the date for submission
(~'s {
2 of discovery requests, and you could file notice of i
3 1 deposition ca late as that date. You havo 15 days siter!
4;ithat for responses to discovery, and you could take your !
J a
Uli depositions certainly within that 15-day period.
6 MR. BRENNER: Well, Mr. Chai rman , it's August I
7' 9th today, tomorrow inexorably is August 10th. We 8' will all still be here. The 24th is it days after that.
9 j. CHAIRMAN BECHHOSFER: Right.
10 [ MR. BRENNER: We are entitled to kncy who I I
i 1! ! their wii +, esses are so we can issue subpoenas and notices !
c, ,
!? lofdeposition and maka a determination as to even whether 1
() n we want te depose the witness. I'm not curo what date 14 l you are suggesting by which we should have that informa-gI tion.
I h[ Tha Board has discretion in actting these il py ( matters. We've got a late contention. You may recall si g[ all the papers that went back and forth. From the it was to the point that Miami Valley
- glq Staff's point, 1
23 !! was very confused as to what tests they were talking 11 g !!about and what they vare relying on, and you get into
.e..
3 that kind of problam, you need discovery very badly.
,g i CHAIRMAA BECHHOEFER: I'm not denying that.
l M7. 3RE?.GER : Probably depositions when it's
) 1 that twisted up.
P00i? @9ltw,
ar5 2720 I ,. MR. WETTERHAHN: Mr. Chairman, in the r^) i
~
2l! interest of compromising this, if the Miami Valley Power ;
i 1
- l w Project would agree to give us the names of the witnesses}
4 by the 17th, I uhink that would be sufficiant.
3i C:ITIRMAN BECHHOEFER: Would you be able to do !
- i. !
'l 3fithat? I think that's a week from Frida(/, is it not?
11 o
70 MR. 3RENNER: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm going l 0
1 8htobegone after the 16th for two and a half weeks. I I I i :
3 understand I'm not the only attorney in the world 10 ' on behalf of the Staff, but I happen to be the attorney I 1 .
i .
2: who is going to handle this matter, as f ar as we know now,' ;
I
- 2 L and I'm entitled to kncu, so that I can make acciaions I f
in terms of scheduling diccovery and so on.
{]) 11 ! I yL i The Board this week has come out with a very n
g ll tight discovery schedule, and I realize that my own d l g ! schedulec are my problem, and I'm going to work it out 4
77 h co that everything can mesh, but I won' t be able to do I i!
73 y that if I don't get the name of the witness by around !
9 !! ne::t Tue sday. ;
!I i E0 ,' Now this isn't a last-minute surprise. They'vel t
o
~
y j been wanting to put this issue in for a long time, They !
x.
know who they want If they don't, some of their I q.
. , asserted basas may not exist.
3; I understaad they have to check to see if (2) ,
l
-- ,. they aro going to use these peepic as witnessos, but they
.r
?
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.__ _ __ # IA _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
I cr6 l 2721
- ought te Sc able to do that in a few days.
() 2 MS. KOSIK: Mr. Chairman, I'll go alcng with 3 Mr. Wotto::1.ahn's saggestion of the 17th.
- 4. MR. WETTERHAHN: Well, Mr. Chairman, in view 3( of Mr. Branner's achedule, would the 16th be acceptable?
r 3 MR. BRENNER: 15th. Earlier than the 15th.
7 ME. WETTERHAHH: Okay.
I g CHAIRMAN BECHHOEFER: When are ycu likely to 9
be back?
h 79 ll MR. BRENMER: I'll be back September 4th, t
I MS. KOSIK: Mr. Chairman, what's the date of }
- ,.l.
12
- the hearing? Whsn is 17 going to be heard?
l CHAIRMAN 23CHEOEFER: Well, we haven't decided i 13 ) l L i ,
g, that yet. Whether it will be ac late as the other i contenticas on monitoring and evacuation, or whether it
~.,! .
si l ilwill be scac time before that, I'm not sure. i
,: n b
, q MR. BRENUEn: Mr. Chairman, I gucsa I don't )
" h l is : !lknow what the difference is between the 13th and the 15 th ,I l i
l
- !on the 16th, even, in tarms of Miami Valley being able ,
19 c:i 20 lto do what they are supposed to do.
l I i' New, if the 15th makes a difference, all right)
?.: .
1 }
- the 15th; but you 2re starting to squeene my rescurces i
)
2 l I! when that happens. I've got to do things after I ges
_- a 0 thenr.nes; determino whather depositions are going to be l l
(^s N ';
A ! schedul ae. whether I ,heuld =ue my vacation shcet to bo l 2
the::e : sN iher I cc.n get somebody else ne covar it, I
a l
I ar7 2722 ,
f I ~ et cetera. .
2 MS KOSIK: We undarstood discovery to be the 3 period of time that you say, and I'd like to care about Mr.
4 i Brenner's perconal schedule, but there hasn't been any 5 considera:icn shown for any of the Intervenors' personal i i
G1 schedulen, and like I said, to give it just a couple of 7l days more, we just found out that the contention has been 1 1 !
S! f accepted, I think is unreasonable. l l i
l
,9 MR. BRENHER: Mr. Chairman, the comment about j 10 : my personal achedule is unfair. I didn't suggast changing ; )
i (
n! the courzo of discovery because of my schedula. It is just .!
P 22 ; a matter of common courtesy as well as due procacs that I bc I
e informed of 'sho their witness is.
l l g[ Uow, if there is some otrong reason why they
- 3 .. should ba given time, fine, my schedule would take second
'i p3 ,
place; but there isn't any reason. They've known about this
,j issue all along, they've talked to it, whcever they are lt
?a relying on, they filed papers alleging all kinds of things.
- g ; I hope they've been talking to,somebody.
L gf Now I think this Board has heard enough. I request i:
3.; that you order Miami Valley to, by telephone, inform me g i and the other parties of their witness by August 13. l
'i '
Rr second request if you refuse that, is August i 14th. i O ~
! I!y third and last request, l.f you rafuse that, i !
I i .de - -
i 00R 02ly97
I ar8 2723
!8 ic the norning of August 15th.
O 2' I
MP. WETTERE, VIN: Mr. Chairman, in e.ddition to that, 3 i aside frca witnesses, we are also interested in background 4' inforntion, of infor:r,ation on all the people on which they II raly, ao at this time we nake an oral request that they l
I i p cvide the names of all the people they relied on for the 1
7 basis of this contention, and all documents which they relied 3I on, to be cupplied to ue not latar than the close of business v
9 today.
10 MS. KOSIE: Mr. Chairman, the requests being l
!1 ' made thieb in eccence are shortening the diccovery period 12 by accui: ;he natir.1 tirae of it, and they're just totally 0 := ii i
e=ree ome31e- ma= eiecevery rertoa wee dee et. 1e i- ,
l TJj short, but we will coraply with it, but when you shorten it ,
I 13 ; to this degtEC, it'3 junt 12.nre1Sonable.
- 6 (Eocrd ccnferring.)
end 1 j7 ld ,
1 1 73 ;l I
- rs j it 20 /
d vi j 1
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9
2724
~1 david 1 CEIP. MAN LECHE 0EFER: We 'd like to a::plore the --
davidl 2 'we cet this schedula before we knew that the fuel loading take 2 3 d.a e had beer postponed. ' So what wo would like to explore fis cr 4 is the ramificabions of, itay, extending the discovery I
5 jperiodforabcuti.threeweeks.
6 l I an .;ar n v.not'certain that we would be coming F
7 j!to hearing any time in t'.e near future in any event. On I
8 I
this we do want to allow the 45 dayc for summary disposition 9 me icn, thi.t type of thing.
' 1 10 Ltt if we extended it, say, three weeks, that
- 3 twotill take car 3 of -- but required that the names of the l[
,2 supplied by, say, September 4 -- was it --
12 l"winnesses *
- g and then havn e. discovery period go for a week aftar that.
I j, ! I 5cn't have a calendar in front of me, but I 4
'l 1,,.
i would like to explore at least the ramifications -- haar what i
16 - ltha perties h4ve to say about that.
t ~t K. 00m R: Mr. Chairman, comewhere you have to gg drz.u the line ,ad try to get those cententiens over. As it g j.Mr. n Brenner has already pointed out, this is a lata 20 ed ce d ntdon. Ev.an nMtted undar these condMons, y
.i Jthese p2cple obvioucly know who they've talked to.
i Why they
, ywon't disclose it new, I don't understand, and why they can't t
,, hsay
.o q-it, I don't undsratand.
.:.a q U1e they should raly on the time periods in the j 1,..
.Seculation? when thiy are tha people who have cauced this late ;
i d
4--
2725 david 2 1 situation is imdefendable, i
l 2 Now, it's not as if, as Ms. Kosik said, that !
3 they just fceun6 out about this Tuesday. They didn't. On 4l 1
April .10 -- af.x months ago, almost -- they filed this 1 1
5! conte.ntion 1*/ motion.
}
3 . hey must have known something about it at the 1
7 tine. They must have talked to somebody six months ago, and i l
l 3 .
mora, i
9 CHAIRMAN BECHHOPJER: They identified --
10 MR. CONNER: Mr. Hofstadter's son. {
\
, ;; 1 CHAIRt).N EECHHOEFER: Right.
- ( b 9 l,1 MD. CONMER: If that's the only one, I don't know i :
13 Iwhat the secre.t would be. l g,, : In any event, we don't want to delay contention
- c. ,
.g.
.upan cententien on information that is obviously available
- 1
\
n g [to them cnd cm.n be made available probably right now. ]
7 j, They are hiding behind the regulations, and the il
.B I
bo,trd its giving them the benefit -- and it extends to the i::
,,l public -- to bend the regulations in their favor, I think.
s-> ,
I'
,, !; uni this is unnecessary in a case like this of a late filed
-" :t s ,
d ic ntantion. I 11 O
.l 1
m '
And it's not as if this is comething tney have ,
?:o cavalop. "his is comething they knew right now. !
' , 1
, :2BIRMAN 3ECHHCEFER: Yes. You sea, well, they are
=
'n; c : cont r:!.ag the achedule that we establiched. They arc -
1 1
'" 1
'cypes ng & shertening cd that time, whi:h is fcr the 1
2726 david 3 I 7 convenience of Mr. Brenner.
o
" ^
.43. CONNER: I? ell, it's obvious --
3 CHAIRMAN BECHIIOEFER: Well, we were trying to 4
- accon.modato everybody on that.
I 5l !!R. CONNER: The chortness is our problem; we l
6! are entitled to a speedy or an expeditious resolution of I
7 as many matters as possible, and this is certainly one; we l I
\
B
! cannot wait until the day before fuel loading to consider i I
G dl8 I
contentions.
10 CHA:%4AN BECHE0EFER: I realica that, and this is
" 1 a contention which we think wod1d be suitable for -- prior to l i i
I i'dbhe--
I 13 ; AR. CONNER: This could be wiped cut very quickly.
4 t
Mr3ut 1
we are entitled to know who they are and we should not have 15 .i:o wait all th.'a time.
1
- s N:w, we filed a motion for discovery of the witnesses.,
i 7 and lI co forth. They waited the full tima period prescribed ll ra ;.i.n the regr.lation and put it in the mail.
19 ; That will be after August 24th, probably; now, 20 enat's the problem we're faced with. Tour order cays that 21 discavary c mmences on August 7th. 1 "d l 2; J Us re trying to move it forward, and here again, 1 f
13 ..f there were the slightest showing en the record that they l 5
i
(~ 2; .en't incu :his er they had no basis for even filing the l
- 5 cen;cnuian 4.n the first place, I'll accept the latter because
.i i l l
I M
l 2727 than we m;va to dicmias.
2 Eut right now they are simply hiding behind a dart.d4 3; procedur?.1 '?cm.de, and for reasons that I think can only be 4! connife?.ud tetructivo and delaying.
5' CI.'AIRMAM BECHHOSFER: Yes. Well, they may also t
6, have other potential witnesses who they -- they may not have 13antiff.o'i :very one at this stage who may speak for them.
i
, ai I don't knct.
I 9 MR. CONNER: Then they will be under a duty to I to i bring ferwa::d and update any new information they have.
3
- .CUAIRMhM BECH30EFER
- That's correct. But
]
i 1; Mr. Erenne.r's motion vanted a showing of extraosinary n ci: ccus".anc os. I'm not sure at this stage that that would 3 be just:.ficd.
3g, 12. CONNER: There's one other aspect of this
- 3 alco. 3..ner no don't know what they'ra really talking about,
.,g we need te tnke the depositions in order to find out what
- e
.g ws have 20 meet, and we cannot do that until we have some
- p iden of what 'they want to talk about, and riciht now we l l
, don't kncu anything .
- =o l l l
.a 1, And that's ancther reason why we need to I '
3; hne diacc"ry as pecmptly as possible. j
] !<Lt 3REN23: Mr. Chairman, I want to correct
.. c.
l t his ., '!ce n.3ntioned my vacation schedule as part of the
. c l
i
! c ncidr : cina in thangir.g this. I asked for no change in I
- c. ,.1 ;
I i 1
2728 1
Otavi'i5 U .,
I the cisc:Vo~/ schedula: I can adapt to it; I can ac:ctnod i u co it.
3'
[ ~1r one requc::t in terms of my cchedule, which is 4.'
. ro minor, ;hn just appalloS at the lack of courtacy, 3'
very ca.:dd.dif, in Miami Va n ey opposing it, in instead of 6 ,
j cri* ring .tc. tnq witness's name on the 17th ao they agreed to --
-r .
, l I asko.d Nr itsome dnvs earlier.
,j l 11cw, this contention, an we said earlior, han u
O! I must stato emphatically that j t een croari. quite awhilo.
10j l
- f. liv; t.hi.a ho:rd, by giving too much iceway in the strictures ,
i 11 of Oircoc ari, cahus it imposnible to prepare as fully au 12 I wo ald .1ks to within the titae.
13 i
- I don't know what the diffurence is between the u! .lltu n=d the 17th or the loth and the 17th or the morning of l
3l 1
- he 15th anc the 17th in giving me the names of those l
'n witneaa::a so I can then investigate the situation and enter l 1 ** qf' ilupcoltions and arrango for peepic to cover things, and
<aI ao forth, a
- I don' t need any relief from the schedule as a tot oT .
i.
9 What you're asking for la Y CHA!21 % BECliIiO2FER:
h
, ,4 n ctrr; 9 in the schedule, lI
.,, i.!
in. D E EN';3: No, Mr. Chal nan,
~]h ' I
'a 4 3ecause va did provide the
's CHAIR!WI ':1E"!UIO3FER:
il l
" I - ercon m;.d ha'7c tvu ischs to respond.
a j
l l
2729 ddvid5 7 50. BRENNER: With all due respe00, the Chairman 2 in sct':ine the schadula did not consider the sitt'ation which 3 Mr. Wettarhain raised this morning.
i J CLIRMAN BECHHCEFER: I think that's correct. l J
5 L-'t . BRENNER: That's the problem we're dealing with.
l 3 Bt.t 12 you vut to extend it three weeks, that's one way to i
7l dc. it. I don't think it's the best way to do it.
I 3! C LIRMAN 3ECHHOEFER: Ms. Kosik, could you come up
- l l w!th che nartes of the witnessos by the dates Mr. Brenner j 2
, l 20l mentianed?
- 1. VS. KOSIK: You're talking about the 14th, is that -- j
?. . CHAIRMAN BECIDIOEFER: The loth is one I think a ha ~~
4 S'. ', !T.. ERENNER: The 14th, I think, would be okay.
'lic scener the better.
i
, .: j /S. KOSIK: If that is the board's ori!ar, we'll I
, ;, comply with 1.he order.
l u3 , . CHAIRMAN DEC3HOEFER: Yes, I think we'll adopt that, i
' 1 e, t".ien. You can do this he telephone, ,
i
- g . MR. BRENNER
- I request that the board order that t ti.:ey do it by telephone. ,
I I
,' CH.7.IRMAbi 32CHHOE?ER: Okay. Do it by telephone. }
Ta!.1 Mr. 2rc2aer by ta12 phone anyway. !
)
I
! i :n, CONMER: and tell us, tco, please. l
! 4 i- ! '
dii?i.'.P. MAN EECHHCEFEE: Yes, yes, ch, y?c. Tall l l - i I
2730 1
F everybody.
(>p.vid7 2
But I think tae applicanto you can tell by 3
talephona alco.
I 4 NCw, thic is the vitaseces we're MS. KOSIK:
~I i going to en11; is that ccrrect?
That would be --
i El. 3RE!4GR: The witnessos and sufficient information 8
that we can locate the witnesses.
KS. XOSI.K. : I realice that. l, l
' N KR. BREtr.GR: And a brief doccription of their l
i.
g.i what they do, that hind
' backgrcund ever the phone is fine:
I 12 h of thing; their employnent, their degraec, very -- I'm
.",- l' not talking about any great amount of infcrmation; just I
' M briefly so we can figure out and prepare for deposition.
O I CHAIRMAN BECHECEFER: Identification of people. )
l MR. BRElmER: Right.
Mf . .
G CUAIRMAM BEC3110EFER: Right.
!3 , P.R . BRED'ER: Their expertise, background, their i
T location, which is to be later confirmed by letter.
10 CEAIRMAN BEC:1HOEFER: All right, we'll order that M by the lhh.
t U MR. 3RE.01ER : Would -- may I inquire, would the ,
i .
4 ik 12 , bcard ::cncidcr it appr;9ricte to order that Miami Valley's O
V l" #o vitccas ~.:c :.mda available -?cr a deposition I.t a time .
I '
c: ;
- nu:en11: to be arrangad without the nacd .:f subscena no n ;
i
n 2731 david 8 1 can save ti:r.s in _iscuing subpoenas, and so on and so forth?
'O 2 (3 card conferring.)
3 R3. :COSIK: Mr. Chairman, without a subpoena 4 going out to the proposed witness, I personally couldn't 5 guarantaa that that persen would be there. I'm not sure 6 what Mr. 3rennor is asking for.
7 MR. CONNER: Let's try to approach this 8 directly: would the Chairman be available' in Washington i 9 for the signing of s'abpoenas en the 14th or 15th?
! 10 C MIRMAN 3ECIEOEFER: As far as I know, yes.
11 MR. CONNE3: Okay.
12 C MIRMAN 3ECHHOEFER: Not after the 24th.
O i (ao =a co>rerri=s-)
t ,; , CS IRMAN 3ECHHOEFER: Yes. I will remind the i
r 15 applictnts that the chairman of the panel er acting chairman gl of the par.el as the authority to sign subpcenas in the 17 absence of a board chairman.
33 MR. BREtD7ER: Just to wrap t.his up, the discovery gg schedule staya the sar.:2 as printed in the :cemorandum and 20 order; is that correct?
g CHAIRMAN 3ECHHOEFER: That's correct, right.
Mr. Pence, I see, is here.
7
?.3
._ CEAIRWdi 3ECEHOEFER: I believe Mr. Pence -- the
- .o l!;l I .
I 2732 I
"Svid9- staff is free to begin its -- well, were there any other 2
preli.ninary rr.atters that anybody wanted to raise?
3 (No response.)
4 The staff is free to start its rabutta) .-
5 Whereupon, '
1 0 '
VERNON PENCE i
l 7 was called as a rebuttal witness by the staff, and having ,
8 been previously duly sworn,-was examined and testified as 9 follows:
1 10 9 CCT EXTERATION 11 BY MR. B?I.HIGR:
12 Q Mr. Tance, ;:tsterde.y at transcript page 2682 g$
?d O- 13 I asked you some prelininary questions and we talked I 14 about the .320 inch gauge and the fact that the 1.ength of 15 it, as we described -- what we meant by length was 12 inches.
16 Do you recall that?
17 A Yes, I do.
18 0 How was that 12 inch length determined? ;
19 A Well, it's a standard engineering practice. It's 20 one of the methodo of defining straightness.
21 It's in either one foot or two foct increments.
i 22 Q How was the one foot length detarmined for that 23 .
gauge for that?
24 A I'm not curo I understand what you mean, "how l 25 iI was it detar::insd."
f k h1
2733 I
cvid10 I mean, in was -- it's an arbitrary selection, and basically - -is that what you're asking or cro you asking 3
me hew the gaugo itself was mensured?
4 C I'm asking you why 12 inches would tell you 5
everything you needed to know, given the purpose of that 6
test.
7 A Let's be careful. That ic only one of the 8 i
! methods of -~ of detarmining the atraightnces. You I
9 ncrmally define straightness in a short increnant, no,mally to . . . -
j either one foot or two foot to mako sure it's not a 11 localized hin:c.
12 You alr3o have normally an overall atraightness O 13 require.mant of the total length of a piece of bar.
14l 0 Could you explain that?
15 A In what ' Jay do you reaan?
N O Could you explain what overall straightness t
17 l requiremont in terms of overall length and han do you check i
O h that?
i.
IU A It'n based cn -- it's a littic over half an 10 inch, co that would be the total bow, you might say, that a M control red would haver it would be approximately half an 2hinch.Thicisexaminedinthechcpbya--well, it's a 4
"2j large vertical straightnocs incpection fixture that detsrmines h h a
t!at total straightnene of cnd perpendicularity and twists 3 j! and Gore Other paramchard
- Of9qs the cont Ol 'rc#
1 @ ll
f .
- 2734 g' O Each rod is inspected in that way?
O davidll 2 A Yes.
3 0 Tnia is by GE?
4 A That's ccrrect.
5 0 How abcut after arrival at the site?
6 A We don't chsck for the overall straightness. The 7 mainrerson is that if there is some form of handling damage 3
that would maka it cut of straightness, it would normally be g some kind of a localized bend or kinh, comething of that l
,o nasce. j g It would 'se rather difficult to make a large g uniform plastic bend of the control rod that would still be ,
within the localized straightness requirement and still be
,,. 4, outside the total ovarall straightness requirement.
15 16 17 13 i
10 l i
21 }
22
,,I
~l e
00 ,.
i 3
CR 6320 !
7.73 ach j Okay, now when you said " localized straightness
2735i
- O O
(./ requirer.ont," you meant the 12-inch guage?
3 ,
- o 3
. l. That's correct.
4h 0 Is it mathematically possible to have a perfectly 11 a r f formed bend that would be out of tolerance for the control
.1 rod over tae entira range but so uniform that it could
- 1 s:111 paco through the 12-inch .302 guage?
,p 1 If ycu make the assumption that the thickness of -
3
, 1 l the wing in at its minir.um condition. In other words, in 3,
. 0 ,
i tuo area of .25, I think it is, that unthematical l
. , i
,. ! poccibility does exist.
.i I ,
,..., l 1 Mcl.'., how can you be reasonably assured that ,
1 eae or mera of the rods at Ziimner don't cuffer from that
'.1 situation? l 1
j A Well, the original judgment .en that is that we t_' 'l l
l
[ da net know of any way to accomplish that. It would be 1
- Attranaly 9.ifficult oven to do with some very specialised q
equipnent in the shcp.
a
] G But if -- Ycu mentionad before that this l
'9 l
l niraightnass nuage length was kind of arbitrary, but U' V l 1 ganerall-1 ured, I suppose, but you said that it'a somctimes l
_.n. ,
cre feet, ce:hapc Other tests'for other things you'd use 11 {
s er.r:- ho t 7 ength. Why don't feu use a t.tc-foot lenguh? !
- . l t Sc could use a two-foot length. There would be l
(^T i
+
n:, yrsat liiftranca, th:s -- instand of beinc ~ .32 guage,
.i, 3-2 jwb i 2736 )i i
5 ' .32 fcr 12 ir.ches, it may be something like .38 for 2 feet. I t
O 2 j'
That's e ratlur arbitrcry point to make sure you do not !
9
. i i
have c localized kink is the enly purpose for it. I
@c' 8I .). Du wouldn't uhe longer 2-foot guage eliminate f the pesMbility of having a uniform deformation that would 6' pass tha guage but would still be out of tolerance over 7i the entire 1<3ngth?
, 9, A No, it would not. Because if the uniform bow a
cuist d, no matter what your definition of your " localized Ml hinka was, ao long as you were within that localized kink ji .:equirema.it, you could still mathematically be out in your
-l '
notal cv2:all length.
10 ]
13 3 Ett with an extended overall localized 1, '
aroT, do2sn't that cut down on the --
15 .I A. Well,'you do not uma the same .32 r'equirement for 13j 2 fech that you would for one foot. It would be an i
- r m ,
inera2ced dimension.
mj 3 If we had a rod with this theoretical uniform t
deformation, could you see it by looking at it?
no 1 oh, very definitely.
Are thers any instructions given to the RCI t ] 0 l nj ;eople to look for this type of thing?
$ 1300 specifically, Thay're given instructions 3
2 .:7 c:3rall visual inspection.
7, l
! O, '/culd the testing that's going te be done in !,
i P00RDN EL .
I 3-3 jwb 2737 1I the Zimmer reactor, which includes -- Would the preop O 2:
i tasting with the dummy fuel assemblies show this type of h
3I problem if it exists?
(
- 4. A 2.! it were sxtreme enough; it would have to be i
i I
Uh somawhere on uhe order of thres or four times the allowable li G0 cvarall strlightness before enough friction would be li 7 l! senersted t:taf: it could be seen in any of the testing.
l 0' O. How about with respect to the test immediately D a!:l af ter crie:i:ality la schieved?
O 10ij A Well, as I said, there would still not be H
li suffici:-:nt hiction genarated even if the rod were three i
or foar times outside its allowable tolerance, that it 12 h a cculd be seen.
. 'jl 22 other words, what I'm trying to tell you is 1
g thst svsn :s tolerance band four or five times what is l
presently 3:2 quired would still not have any kind of safety
- j gl g- , implisction whatsoever.
, G All right, in other words if it doesn't -- if
, , , .! it's a probica, it would show up on the friction test. If
,n [ ,
it docunft show up due to increased friction on these
,., 3 , tasta, yo2 den't care frca a safety point of view. Is that ;
cerrace l ra ;
g., A Cant's corract.
n m.. nasunza: r have no fureher quections.
U 1
- , 'h crd cenfc ring'.) I pg W !
y 2738 3-4 tab 2
1 CHAIRMAN BECEHOEFER: Ms. Kosik, do you have
,, S V ,, I
'" ',' any?
3[y MS. 'KOSIK: No questions.
'I1 C3AIN1AN EECHECEFER: Mr. Heile?
a
> Jj MR- HEILE: No questions.
ig 6 ]I C'nIRMAN 3ECHECE?ER: Dr. Fankhauser?
n 7 '. i DR. FANKHAUSER: No questions.
it i
Z3 CHAIRMAN BECIGOEFER: Mr. Conner?
0 ;i PiR. CONNE2: No questions.
10 (Beard conferring.)
; CHAIRMAN DECHUCEFER: The Board has no questions, i2hG l either. I guess the witness is excused.
(), 13 (Witness excused.)
(4 MR. CCNNER: Shall we proceed with 16?
- 5 i CHAIRMAN BECHHOEFER: Yes.
.6 , MR.' CONNER: If the Beard plence, and may the
,/ ;j record reflect, that the came panel of witnesses who i
a! uare prasent for Contentien 15 are again in their places
,f is " :.n the witness jury be:c, and they are the same witnesses ;
20 ;. uho have alraady sworn to and srpported the testimony for
'.1 i Contention 15, which was physically bound into the
- - anceript efter page 2209, tegother with the tantimony on
- 2 contention 15.
O 9~:
, The panel is now available for cress-2:: amination, i
sd 12 I did not before, I again move the cdmi3310n of the f
) N
- i 2739 3-5 jwb I
evido.1:e supporting Contention 16, supporting our position O- ,
1
~
on Contention 16.
O CHAIRMAN BECHHOEFER: Any objectionc?
i A
(No response.)
I CHAIRMAN SECHHOEFER: There being no objection, 6 that testimony is admitted.
7 Uhereupon, I
3 EARL BORG4AUN, 1I dI VERNON PENCE, 10 WILLIAM SCHWIERS, is and b
12 j RICHARD KANANEN O 2- uere reen11ee ee witneeee en heh 1e of the Arg11o nt nd.
14 having been previously duly sworn, stere examined and 15 testified further as follows:
h 1" il CHLIRMAN BECIDIOEFER: Mc. Kosik --
o 7" !( Mr. Conner, did you make any corrections that d
13 : had to be made?
q
- ' ; MR. CONNER
- There were none in that.
I 23 CHAIM1AN BE0HHOEFER: None? Okay.
25 CROSS-EZAMINATION 1
22 ..
3'l MS. RCSIK:
j 2;. ;i G I w.:ald like to just request that anybody en l
2-., de panci who haa r.he ancwcr to the question cnewer it.
- y It vcc sestad in the testi 1ony that the seals 1
d 0
u, 2740 3--6 'wb
- I 1
- c. wera inspected at %ilmington with -- by means of a visual
-K inspectic.a with a comparator, and a dimensional check. How d.
3 [. is the coinpe.rctor used to inspect the seals?
ili t 4,,
E (Witness Ponce) First, let me -- that is l
. . il aij ::eferred to as a "comparator" is the correct pronunciation. I I
3,! A comparator is a visual and a -- I guess you !
o 1 i
~ "i voule, call it a surface-roughness that you can feel with j rour finger er fingerna.il, and it has a nunbar of different j 3!{I i
> .surfnce roughnesses made by a series of different types of i f
"[ machine cperations, co that you can make the comparison i
M 'ctw.cn what is on the standard and what in on the part t,
i 4 q
- c. hat you're examining.
.I O. Au part of the examination of the inspection M with the ecmparator, was the inspector given just an
.t
- 5 9 szamole Of the type of roughness that was supposed to be J
25 3 on the se:17 l
il J .i A No. A comparator has a whole series of surface 4
i is :cughnesses, normally frcz' a surface roughness of about
- D 4 FMS to appronimr.tely 500 RMS. That's a total of about i
e Dd 1 10 different roughness levels.
2 i f,t Was the inspector told which of these 10 l
In diffa::ent levels the real is supposed to comply with? l l ~.: ?. Correct.
/
, O. Which eno YGr3 thsG3 54310 SuppoCcd to Comply
- i ainh:-
i i
P00ROMINAL
2741 3-7 jwh Il A It's usuallv raferred to as a "63 finish," or
~
.O ,
~
a "63 R&S finish.
i ,
I 3
0 Could ycu describe the dimensional check inspec- !
'I hi tion methed?
5 A Nell, this in::yection is to make aura that tha o
S[ spherical serfsco.is in the right location en the part, I
7j 'and also to make sure that the surface is of W e right 8 i contcur.
l 9 [l G Eow many of the seals wcra inspected at 10 Wilmington?
11 A All of them.
.! j 12 C G Did any of them not pass the test? '
t 13 } A I don't quite understand what you mean.
it f4 ij G Well, as a result of the inspection at !
I I!
'5 P Wilmington, did any cf the seals not meet the requirements? ,
- 1 A 2'c sure that during the production operation of
'O h
- 7 the parta, that there were periodically corro that . fill net d !
!a pass the requirements. I think that's what you're asking l
- 1
- I
.0 ;; me.
?
IC]n G Tacn you don't koop recerds as to how many l 21 passed and how many failed? '
Fl
.1 22 , L The reccrds are prchably there, bt t I don't knew l e that information.
'i h
, Q. Were all cf de zeals that uare shipped found to ,
i 23 nect the 33 R!is fininh requircment?
P00R OREL .
l 2742 3-8 jwb I L Yoc. .
2l G New is it correct then that at the cite the !
! l 3I inupection in enly nede with the comparater? i l
4ll' L Cerrect.
l
- 5) O And this inspection I assume is only to loo?c for 6 demage in chipping or handling? 20 that correct? .
7hi. L Yes.
d n
6[ .
G Would shipping and handling result in osmage to j 9 the roughness of the sac 1 such that it might become l
-1 i !
10 ] rougher than it was supposed to be -- roughar than when it j 11] was sent out?
li 12 A That's peccible.
i i G Could ycu scplain how that would happen in j 12 j- 1 it i
- 4 ij shipping?
.6 1
15 0 A. Uell, if any kind of a hard object were to be
- 5 E ,
scratched cerosa it, or a rough picco of matarial bero to
.(
i.
37 j be hit against it, it could do that.
,i i 12 , G The finich would boccme rougher? l 1 n
.; i le 'i E Correct.
o
?!
l ,
20 '. G Was the cerapzrator used in the same way l
- t. '-
si y at the inspection rite as it was at tha =anufacturing Jll.t27 l ,
q ,
q ;
22 2.. {Uitneas Kananen) I'm not at r.ro cf how the p; ccmparater was us0d at tha mInnfacturing site, so it's l u i 4 g: ' hard to reho a state snt cencerning thet, i 1
C.i Dco: anyhedy alce k. dew?
P00R 3 8 3
u 3-9 jwb l 2743 I 1 Otmparators -- it's just ust:rd as a reference
( 2 for determining the finish requirements. So, yes, it .
1[n was asad la t'ae same vau as it was used at the manufacturing 4! !
site, l'n sura.
I G "Ato did tha inspection of the scals at the Zimmer i
'3 i sitc?
t
.j 1 Myself and 11 ark Parla.
7 i.,li
- 3) ? Did you use the comparator to inspect the seals i
9" at the cita? s' U
'O [ L Yes, we used the ccmparator as a reference to 17 it inspect de acals at the site.
h
~
12 , C Did the milTxright crew which wo discussed O u ;: '
ee rencth vesee=de.7, vier any =ote in the i= eve tion 2 -
1 a
- -, j L No.
.I
"' 'Aore they prosent at tha inspection?
- l t
16 I. Y30.
1
~
0 What ware they doing there?
- , " 7. Their purpoce tras to inspect the thickness of ' r i i
- a '! the blades with "go/no go" guages at that titae. '
o, l
20 d 9 Thay did not -- they were not assigned to 4
- 1 j
l 3- inepta': the sanis? i
- ' L &c.
g3 3 Wore they given ccuparraers?
g ,
L Ihe ec=parc9ces wor 3 availabla. They wore not
"; giw:n the Ocmparators to use for use in inspecting the P00R ORGINAL
- J-10 jwb i 2744 1
I .'1 o
seals. ;
t 2 Uhat ware the results of the inspection?
0 t
3! 7. Uo found one that hcd a scratch across the seal i
,! j j curface, which was rejectsd. The others were acceptable.
E' 3 Did they meet tha requirement of 63 RMS finish?
3 t. 2cs. I 1
7 ij Qause.)
S ll1 G Dieu it uns stated yesterday th:t union rules i
9 I; recuired thai: the mi?.1 wright: do the work, and the quality Mf1 cor.tec3 reop2.e, I believe, make the recorda of the 9
s Mq inepuctien.
- t IEjj Uern there no union ruics here requiring that n
+ 3i !
- he n111m.qhta de the inspection?
l
'l 1 L Uhat's a f.act. This is a viouc1 inspection.
t 0
'i: ;, There's oc hardwara to be handled in this case. l I l w 3 "his is a vicual inspection? !
1 :
- . i
- .j 1 2aa I 1 i
- e 1t 't Mr., Pence Oaid that the comparator la used both
,. j viruully and by fooling it vi'_.c the fingers, and I .
/t 20 b:.litwo ycu said it was used in the came way at the Zimer ,
I 1: 1 a Ltc'.? '
i
- 4 Te a .. ,
3 .
23 3 & su thia rac just visually, are y:n saying that
.4 y:: did r..cc 5c a tec':ile t:st en it, cc well at the' Zir.nar e e es %
}
cnd J.~5-3 n ',m., m lid. WL pi ar i fola
l l i
AR4 arl 2745 I '
l 3' Q And there were no union rules requiring that j 2 I the mi:lbrights do that teut?
3i A 071tness I<anansn) No, there weren'b, because 6
4 the int:pector siho is evaluating the seal, has to be the one I.
3- that does that check.
I r
S 0 Why is that? I l
A Ee ':2 the one that is signing for the surface j
- 7) i 1
61 conditien fcr that seal. There's no union rules covering !
i.
9i checking visual inspeccion of soal surfaces, no. It was j
- l. I I
10l the quellity control inspector's function to check the seal.
1: ; O As part of ycur incpection, you felt of the i
12 j seale and than you felt cf the comparator; is that correct?
- s A Yos, that's correct.
']
- /. ! O And who elco did that inspaction?
i:
- 3 ', A lurh Parla.
H 16 HS. 7.0SI2: No noro questions.
Il 1
- 7 g CHAIDIAM SECHEOEI'ER
- Mr. Heile?
l:
- 9 I HR. HEIL 3
- No questions.
1; !. CHAIRMAN BECEHCFFEF: Dr. Fankhausar?
il 20 ! 3Y 3R. l'A3KEAUSER:
y ; Q Ar. Penco could you describe the function of the u
scal? ,
I 33 A Diitness Penca) This ic a spherical-,haped surfacei m that fits < ban en a cene-shaped surfcce to make a metal-to- l ,
- :notar. Ocntac;. It is uscd ichen contrcl red driva l
l ar2 2746 .
I mechanism '.a removed from tha bottom of the vessel, and
(:) .
e this acal heaps the water that is in the reactor from ,'
i S leaking out anderneath the vessel.
i i
l j.' Q If there uas come leakage, what would the implica-E. tion? of that leakage bs?
c A There would be no implication. There is normally 7 a substantial amount of Icakage that comes through those l I
L acals. They are not what you would classify so a total seal. j
- 5. It's mcre like a -- to minimize the' flow of water. It's not C a total seal.
f 1! Q Would that water leaking out be contamincted -
il j with radioactivity?
15 A Not normally. It could have a small amount in it.
I 14 i n That water is the same water that would be in E
- E !
tha reactor itself?
uH A That's correct, it's the same water that's in i
i; ; the vecesi. t 1
i 1
Q And ther2 uculd be no radioactivity in that water?
,3 lI.
p; ;l A Water itself does not really become radioactive.
- 1 1
It's any ulnute particles that are in the water that 20l 2; actually.bsccme radicactive. There is some vary, very small !
I 22 ] level cf radiation that is there, that's true. j n,
O :Muld that water that would carry Ocm2 small l 3
amounc of radiation possibly deliver that radiation to any !
( '
_ individual servicing the J2 actor -
j L d J
l ar3 2747 !
1 Ii ,
A Yes.
'- C hay I infer, then, that the seals are inadequata 3lo in their smocthness, thc 2by letting unucua?. amounta of vnter l
t i
1 4! 19ch out of the reactor, the results would be increased 3[ occupational. c:rposure to the workers?
e 3! MR. CONNER: Objection, your Honor. He is I
7l '
characuarizing it as an unusual leakage. Thero's been no i 4 G h testimony a.0 cut unut.ual leakage. l 4 i '
9i OHAIRMAN BECEHOEFER: Could you rectate your ;
1 n '
10 l quaation? l i
i I DY DR. FANI'.HAUSER:
i l '1 d i
- 2 !! O Mr. Pence, i
- the smoothness requirement was not i t ,
.! t s ; met, would you expect more or less leakage from that? l
'p l
'a i. i
_4 Q?itnsos Ponce) There would be more. I I
is : Q h'enld you sgree that we might ch11 that leakage m h an unusual cmount of Icakago, censidering that the seals, l
,; q as I otated, were not appropriately smooth? l i '
q ! A I don't know what you mean by unuunal. ,
i.
- . Q Uot.1d you prefer tha term " excessive," if it is
( !
.a [ ture than what one would e::pect?
A I'll try and mahc an interpretation of your i (i i n;. d czczani7e cara.
y
,; If thero is ancugh water coming down chat it .
=I causec *iidf'.culty no tho man that are doing :ho werk, to
,; c en za'.1:: do : hair ucr:c, that thorn is ancugh wator coming l
l I
I i
ar4 2748 f
I down that they can't sea what they are doing, or it inhibits 1 O 2i i
the hrndlir?; of their equipment, or something of this i
i 3 4 nature, I would call that exce scive, l.
4 Q l'here would be individuals working directly 9 ;.
5 1 . under these seals? - l 6I A That's correct. -
l i I 7{ ') Anc. that leakage would incresce the amount of l occupenor.a1 mposura? !
i i
- I e '; A ';o some extent, I would assume it would. ?
I a
70 0 Do you have any idea about -- could you quantitate j
'1
, that tt all for usTr
- 2 A You mean the amount of exposure? j
'3 O Yes, ed A fo, I cannot. ,
t .
's ., O Could you tell us what the abbreviation "rms"
.s I stands for?
l
,7 !; A It c. cant root means aquared.
l
- ,1 Q And how is that applied to smoothness-roughness? ,
I is a A This is the normal definition of a surface, when i i
r ! you consider -- how could I explain that -- if you looked at I
- ,i ,, the crow) scetien, it would look like very, very small i J !
,,3 ]3 thre26s or v viness of the surface, and this is a method l.
- l l i
- ,
- cf de mz.r.l.:.iag the average value of the height of those j 7; littlo g nns. !
(]
.- , Q :n other worda, root means squa. rcd is a variation
9 I f
' ,- l ar5 i o
2749 i t
fr1m a straight line in croca section? i I db
/~T i
\_) 2, A Chat's probably a good definition of it.
J[! G Then may I infer that 4 is a very saceth surface?
! I' 2. Correct.
L 3 ij O Aftar control rods are finished being inspected 4 ;j fer chipment, you hava cay iden what the roughness of those d
7 j rsject2d rods night be? I mean does it vary all over the 3 ) place, er is it usually just above 63 ras?
9'j MR. CONNER: Objection, your Honcr. There is no i
10 :,, , testinony that thero are a bunch of reject:d rods, and if
- r. -
, , ' j thay had toen rejected, it's irrelevant. j l
'1 {' DR. FANKHAUSER: I believe there was como i,
(~)
A/
>3 ref ereaca te fuel reds being inspected and rajected.
l
, Bin CCNNER: Thera was one that was rejccted on the basis of a seal which had a nich or a scratch in it,
, net en tha kani.3 of any emcothnsos. '
i
. . " HR. DEEM!ER: I don't know about the court reporter;,
.l 3 'ou t I car 5 t heur two pacple. talking at once. . j i
(3ourd conf arring.) {
I g f, CHAIRMAN BECHHOEFER: There isn't adequ c e-'
fcundx:icn in the record for this particular question, so i i !
g we fil'. J n.3 nin the cojection.
F II DR. TAITEEAUSER:
Mr. PencD, in the cour3e of manufacture of" control
. r.ds, nr.3 .:octro.~. rtdr cocasiorgily g rejected because the ceci l
+ 4 t t, ke
,II l!
arG il 2750 h
1 I is inadegwataly secoth?
3 ', j . A Correct. l 2: G Catt1d you deceribe for us the nature of inadequacy l 0
9 Of the.t smoothness?
O 5* A rrobably th.2 rost common occurrence is that the i, ate.1 will get a scratch during handling or moving like that
, l 7e in the shop. ,
i
- P ,
The other is that during the machining operation,
? sccchh!.ng qces rerong with the cutting tool and a totally ;
i
.', inndeq.tato narface le generated. In those cases you and up i i
!i uibh an 2::truely rough surface. I 1
,, O Co wa're not talking about minor variations in
~g an'coth::e a?
. ;J A 21 :: cst casac you oither get a very siccoth P
surface, cr ?ou end up with semething that is obvionely
- q very, Jery :Jongh. An in-between situation is not tha ,
c: muon. :
! l i3 G Can $ne judge the degree of smcothn'eas by a visual ,!
t 4 - ' inspectien?
- t- f. I c' ; A '* 3 %
l O Unat kind of visual indicaters doeu one use to v: judg!. he smoonhncEc7 1
212. COi!NER: Cbjastion, your Ec::or; that's been '
l
/ Si hai 2:V.'. MirrM. rod. ' l k
annuca secusczm: I thinh enave correct, it P00R DiLBINg
1 l
l i
ar7 2751 1
'O 2lne=deee-auet i==c-i Tha quartion has been answered.
2 !i
[ i?.. FAMKHAUSER: Visual indicators, cr tactile
- 1 t-1 indic1ters?
s ll ,
j (3 card conferring.) .
3W l i
! CEAIRMAN BEC3EOEFER: We've changed our mind. I 7 ?j ,
it thin' that question may be answered.
. We're not sure j si i whether Lf s been answered before or not. .
a.
WITNESS PENC2: A comparator is a visual tool.
10
!l BY DR. I'AEKEAUSER:
1; h E Q A comparator is a visual tool?
L
- 11 1 4
(Witness Pence) Correct. !
.~ n. n. :
Q Do you hava a tactile tool to be used? )
u .i
! A It's also used for that.
H l
- 9.!'
io n I 2 I coc.
. 3' And the Applicant would not have a comparator
- r hero wh:' ch .o cou?.d view?
n
'~
SG. COliNER: I object to that, your Ecnor. Time [
.. i' for disco / cry is over. Dr. Fankhauser is exploring this, I ie i I g:less, fer the first tir.e, but, you know, thera's no i .,l
- c. . !, ,
tquest doc anything under proper discovery, and we see no i i
- I j
~'
point in 7: viding new noyc to be played with in the bearing. Ii
~~
tR. 3R2NI!2R: Kr. Chairman, so far he's just esked ;
.? .2 r'nd it hara. I didn't hear 2ny discovery r2 quest.
'U. COPCER: Mell, it will obvicusly lead to 800110REAL - - -.
cr8 2752 7 production, and I object to this, there having been no proper i 0 2 demand for it in discovery. Discovery is o'rer.
1 l
3 MR. BRENUSR: My point is if the answer is no, 4 thr.t will end the debate. If it's yes, then w can get 5 into the debate.
6 CHAIRMAN 3ECHUGEFER: I think the witness may 7 ' answer whether he has one with him. i 3 WITNESS PENCE: I do not have one. l
- . I S* MR. CONNER
- We have one here, wc thought the 10 ' Scard might want to see one, but I don't propose to produce l' it, absent the prepar foundation of proper request for 12 the discovery through an Intervonor.
O :2! !
on "^"xn^os=a 12 r = r aaar = **e 2 ra-14 j I believe that if we are trying to judge the question of i
15 l adequacy of cIrcothness, and we are talking about a tool 10 [ with which fcu of us have any experience, I think it could l'
- 7 - be ver,f instructive for us to be able to appreciato the 4
- g ; quality of the tool used in ovaluating the --
li I
is -- MR. ColmER: We object, your Honor. That argument no ! is equally applicable to control rods.
1 h
- ) '; DR. FANKEhUSER
- I didn't ask if they had contr:1 .
l f 12 'j reda hora. j 3] (Sanrd conferring.)
3 CEAI?lCN 3ECHHOEFER: The Board does not think f O it will be r.acnacary for us to look at the pi ce of I
_e ; 1 s
! P00R DI M !
i
.. ,, , _ _ , - -. - _c-._- . _ _ - , . . _ _ . _ , _
6
)
I ar9 2753 l I equipment, a..d we don't think it is necessary for it to be hu .'
produced at .:his time, sitaer.
i
-t l 3y[ I:'a not becauso discovery wasn't carlier requested,[
4 that is not a valid ground, under the Clinton case, but ba .
I if th:st as it may, wa don't think it's necessary at this time G to produce it, so request denied.
i 7i 3Y CR. FA!!KEAUS".R: I I i Sf Q Thore are, in fact, then, two means by which l 1
0l nmootanes3 sf the surfaco of a seal is judgad: one is 10 tactile and one io vistal?
1: A I guoss you ceu.\d separato that.
12 0 Well, it either is or it isn't. If you lock at it, 13 ! it's visual, and if you touch it, it's tactila. Do you uso d
10.[ both of those techniques?
is A I cannot say for sure that both techniques were n
- c l, used on each scal, but that can be used, both t
- chniques i
4-
{esabeusedbyuseofthecomparator.
m!9 Q Is the comps.rator made of the same material that
- 9 ll the seal is ccmpeced of?
gc[ A .4ct noccusarily, h
3: O If it we':o other than the identical man rial, l
22 [ would one ex;cet dii arencas l in the appearcnce of the f
'l cc::1 para ::r? l 3 . A Y:e f..ay appenranc27 Yes.
,; O Il the appearance varies from that of the seal, i P00R Mutin ,
l ar10 2754 l I
i is it persi31e that the visual inspection uculd give an L !
2i errcneous -)udgment of the smoothness of the seal? ;
I e
3 A Hou that I knew of. I I
4l 0 I believe yeu stated that all shift control rods 5 ! had saale that passed visual and tactile -- that passed 0; inspection for smoothncss; is that correct?
i 78 A Correct.
C! Q And I beliavo I heard Mr. Kananen state that he 9 d did not kno.7 whether the inspection technique used on site U
t 0 l. was itten'cical to that caed at the point of manufacture; is s d
j; g that co: rect?
il 12 M3. CONNER: This witness can't Itnow what Mr.
I 13 Kananten ':ncus in his mind.
I y( D3. FANKHAUS2R: I'm addressing this question M
n j tc Mr. Mancnon.
C '
33 MR. CCNUER: It's cbvious that Mr. Fence had
. _, ; ths Ifilmington operatien, and Mr. Kanacen had the one here.
- g j Hr. Kanenan can't know enactly what was done in Wilmington,
- g. and Mr. Fence necescarily know what was done at the plant.
,..- i NR. HEILE: Mr. Chairman, if that's true, I see no g re. con uhy Mac witnesa can't answer for ,himself. It does
] concm n is as I sit hora and listan to this question that '
I
.r l "r. Connor io interjecting an answer on behalf of the ;
O -
. If the uitnans knous, I'd like to hear it from I
[
!! J l' . I aril 2755 l i
1 the witnaso and not Mr. Conner. !
O V ; l Ila. CONNER: The witnesses have already answered.
l 3
If you wculd licton, counsel Heile, then we could object j
.l l
.a q by saying the question has been asked and ancuared. j
- l. >
3 I U? card conferring.)
l' 3 L C.'. AIR!iM1 SECHEOEFER: I think the uitnesses may
-- ancuer Uimhin their own knowledge. If they don't know, they
, i 3 !: car. say so.
I s g{ WIT'IESS KANAMEN: ThereasonIsaidthatisbecausel #
il g' I Jacn't at i.he Wilmington site when they did the inspections.
1 I
3Y DR. FAMKHAUSER: i 11 j
, ., jf Q Is it usual in the manufacture of nuclear O
v .,,
! cenponents for the manufceturer and the purchaser to use
.2 h diasimilar tachniques in the evaluation for the quality q't
,j of tas ratorial manufactured and received?
a .
!; l-iR. CONNER: We object to this, your Honor. The ,
o i I
., :j uitnesses have testified the different purposes of the t
_ . inupections at Wilmington and at the plant. The different as ,
- 3 pcpons at the plant for the control rods.
3
,, It la mischaracterizing the testimony to suggest
.n i
, chat they ars deliberstaly using dissimilar techniques,
.i
. wher. he tear.niques saployed were for differ 2nt purposes, ,
and that ia in the racerd.
.. t -
' DL F%iKHAU533- It concerns me that there seams to ! !
l ha anothn on:cpla of v.r.~f pccr c0!mranicati n between the .
. i P00RORIBll0L
=)
i ?
ar12 275G
.t .
2!
manufacturer and the perchacer in thic case, and that if thay 2 g are not -2ve.:n auare of whether they are usin.,r the cama l 3 ; to-hniquan for evaluatim? 'aateriala, then I think that la a I 1 l 4 '
cerim.c flaw in the proca.ni, in the quality control process. .
t > .
I 5s MR. CCNiiER : W no't: that be str:.chan. Thora's i.
I
'3 P absol.utely no foundation for thc.t or no haaf.a in ':he record 7 n for it. ,'
+
9t .,
MR. BREM T.I!: fir. Chair an, it C:cnn' t matter 1 d
j S i.4 whether there 13 a haris for it, or foundahicn, anyway. It's D
12;joutofcrder,inan:/crent. He can write his findings after u
11 ! this is over, i 1 12 1 CH.AIRI!Ati BECHi!O5FER: I believe that is corract.
.I f.
- i n ? The objection ic auttained. l ili i t
? _'. 3Y DR. FJJEGAUSER: '
u l l
u.- ia Q Ia it a cor:Oct characterization to state that l .
.i
- ,3 } tha wanufacturar nrd the recipient cre uncertain as to whether o
P
~ 1( they are t. sing the J ana tcchni:nes for ovalur.nina .uacarials -
- i -
4
- y produced and received?
pI *
- .r.
A (Uitness ?cace) No, it's act.
i ac[ Q Parhaps Mr. Kananen can e:cplain his rasponas to l n, an c rliar questian til!ich, fron. av intepretaticc, cc ndad
- I so a e su e 44 .e. #
e er .e S 1
")
O'3jecnion, y yiR. 00MNER: no record s=>sa'ca for -
t 3
.1 .1*33124 4... ,
CuA.~22H.*al.1 AEC ii:0373R. Objectic:, suct in;?d. .
t 1
a P00RBRSINAL .
e.r13 2757 1 (Board confe: ring.)
O _
4 DR. FAN 1GLTUSER: I believe the record will speak 3 for itself. I will withdraw that.
y
)
4 ];{ cmIann ascuacm'zR: okay.
n
.: A i
eI I
i and 4 Gef t
7 3- i 4 1 2i
!0 11 i
- Z O m 5 -
i r
15 ! ..
L:
N is 'tit I
I 17 ll
'SI w
i l
20 1
. j
. i
= :4: i m '
1 i
, _4 - _ , , .4m.. . - --. - - , . - . . - . . - - - - - - . . . . - - , . , ._,~..~,4w._ .. . -- , a
2758 BY DR. FAHKHAUEER:
2 david 1 Q Nhat's -- when one is judging the smoothness of avid 1 2 thece sealc, you stated that 53-rms is the required smoothness.
take 5 3 What I woul6 ;.ike to know -- what -- how smooth these scala 4 can be mado?
5 '
Ia other vords, la the normni manufacturing process,
- J \ that -- what in the typical sutoothness of a seal?
7 na. Col:NEn cbjection, your Itonor. That is totally 0 irrelevant as to what pioca of metal might be mado smooth.
O; The fact of the issuo here is to the -- to the issues here is t
10 l 'dc these coals meet whatever minimum specifications the 11 smoothnosa are for the saals, not theoretica?>f what could be 12 dcne.
13 (Doard confarring.)
14 , 21R. CO!!NER: Gpecificction 63-rms.
15 Cim.UdmN 3E :530E73R: Objection sustained on that 15 basic.
17 i D'1 DR.17dGEAUSCR:
10 f Q Are any nemberc of the panel cuare of any mi11 wrights '
19 ! that might have done some inapection en the e seals?
20 MR. CONNER: Objection, your Honor: that would 2;j be irrelevant.
- 2 ' DR. FMWd!AUSER
- It's -- I recognite that '
l 23 :l Mr. Co:'inar anacis in propcsing cbjections and disrupting !
a 4
2c . ordarly quest.icning, I hslieve that thic particular questien ;
- 1
- g I wf.1.". in face Saceno ve.~j pertinent bectace I think it's 4 i
j
l 2759 david 2 1 importcat tc know whether any millwrights in fact did i
2 maka any inspections, whether they were ordered to or 3 whiaher they didn't.
4( M'/. . 3REIRER.: Mr. Chairman, I think --
l 5 C:LIs!AN DECHEOEFER: I think that question has 6 been aakad.
7 MR. COJNER: There's no four.dation for that 0, question; the:ca's no cuggention that a millvright has the 3
9 qualificaticnn to inspact. They are suppcsed to -- an 10 inspection inplias a cart.ain skill and art for which no 11 foundation han been shown.
12 (3c.ard conferring. )
13 MR. BREMMER: Mr. Chairman, while questions 14 bearing on that may have been asked, I don't think tho
- g ' arca has been clarified. The original objectin was
!G l relevince and materiality. I believe it is, il you look 17 at the entira evidance -- Mr. Martin is comingin with one 13 j story. Other peopic are coming in with another story.
i ggl This bears on these apparent contradictions.
i mj (Eccrd conferring.)
g f MR. 3REMNZR: Whether or not any of it la important 3, will Saponi en other testimony.
3, Cii7.: R H A11 3 E C Hi!O 3 F E R : This quo 3 tion may be 'achad. j i i
~
g]
cbje:.: tion averruled. j
- e. r.>.:.!,
Si!".a3SS X.MIANElir fionc of tho millwrights worm i
?
tl '
s P00RDMNAL 4
2760 9
- I david 3 ever inst;:cted to increct the control rod drive seals --
" i 2
the contro.'.. rod seals. .
3 Nyor, whether or net they looked at them on their 4 cvn, I do I.o t know .
5 m. BRELIER: Mr. Chairman, I'm confused. The i
l,
- centr:1 .c6 drive saalo are something else.
I 7 gy,5ESS ZANANEN: I'd like to clarify my ansver.
I B! I shouldn'ta, ave saint " control rod drive." I chould have '
i
- l 0 said " cent:::ci rod scair."
20 5.- 3,I DR. FANKEAUSER: ,
I 11 ' O Was any work performed on thosa senis by allivright 37 l.
12 A (Witness Kananon) Yes.
l 13 0 idhat was the nature of that work?
14 A on a couple of occasions they buffod off with l
13 crori clath. .
l
\
16 0 Why did they do that?
17 t. A Because there was scme gritty material on the i
18 curh::c. ,
i 10 Q How did they find tat gritty material on the i
i sur: face?
20 21 ,
A . Through vicual inapection.
20 i G Mi11 wrights found that gritty :::aterial through I
e 23 I 'di:%
i r 22. ; a n.
- -; l 0 "Al c Jou: r1 that r.starial?
l 4
P00R M3lML i
2761 david 4 1 A Cuality centrol inspectors.
t 1
2; Q Could you namo those individuals?
a A M ; rk Parla or myself.
4 Q After they buffed those surfaces, did they -- ,
3 how did they Pr.ow how long to buff thosa surfaces? I l
g A They were being instructed by the inspector.
7 0 In all casen? Is that a no?
a A Chny buffed the granulous material off the surface g until it was ceceptable.
39 Q Who made that decision?
I A The quality centrol inspector inspected after
$3 33 they 'emoved the material to an acceptable condition.
1
() 03 i O 13 "11 C#U*22
- c. A Ye:.:, he made the final determinatica.
- 4 yg[ Q Du-ing that buffing, was the inspecter there at h all tir.ics?
,6l 1
,,,, ! A I fon't knou.
u :
f
,8 ,
O Did the sil:. wrights at any point -- were they 4
I g to usa thair own judgaant te determine how long to 3g buf:' ti.cce curfaces? ,
I
.y., , A It's very possibla.
,, 1 0 ?cw would they arrive at the knowlsdga that u, i l
t auffi:icnt briling hs.d cccurred? )
s ,j ). Tacsy would -- common knowledge. I don't know. j
- ) O C
- r:rn Nnculedge? j eo ll!
O P0013fdGINAL .
l
2762 dnvid5 I A They had seen the other surfaces. They knew O 2 what E. raised area -- what the granulous Iraterial looked i
3 like. It's fairly easy to tell when it's ren.oved.
4 O They had no tools other than coir.on knewMge 9
5 to determine wilother it was adequately smcoth or not?
6 A That's uhy the inspector inspected periodically 7 until they were donc, and ha inspected the final product.
O C Approy h tely how many of the control rod seals ;
O requirad such treat.~ ant upon receipt?
10 A I'm not cure. I believe there waa'three. .
1 11 O Wars ther.s any other seals that required any l 12 l i kind cf traattent or we.re rejected for other steans -- for l 1;,, other reacons?
y, A No, I don't halieve so. Execpt for the one that 13 I previously stated was rejected. You acked about rejected.
l 16 O Eo the mi11 wrights were buffing theca surfaces; l
j7 1 who hai decided that these rurfacas were inadequate?
i 33{ A The inspectar. l l
10 0 Tha inspector had looked at these curfaces'and !
so decided that they were inadequately smcoth?
21 t, A This tras more lika liks a eleculineca condition, l
2.2 C I':n ecrry, what? j i I 23 A AL. cst like a cicanliness condition whre if you l
3f; j hed dirt er grit en a etcfaca, you would wanc to remove it. !'
b :
.;g ,
O I". uat, not ':ecucary to determine wheth2r that
. j j P00R3Rl8lNAL
1
?
I l
2763 i 1 \
david 6 gi !
f, particular f'.au was adequately removed or not?
i 9
~ l
{ A 21 0 , that's not correct.
i Q 3 comparator is necessary to datarmine whether 4l that flaw is aacessarily removed or not? ,
l A Wall, thafinal -- well, the inspactors were done --
{ f
. I d '
there was an official inspection done after the grit was remoVGd.
6 q A::. any tima during that buffing did any of the 0 millwrightn have comparators for use to determine whether 10 they shcult; continue buffing or not?
11 A That wasn't their job.
2 0 That was not my quest (.on.
I O n Ceed you direce um e - ehe eue eione :
l 14 3 The comparator was availabic to them at the time, 15 yes. !
I 10 ] The comparator was acailable to the mi11 wrights at l l
Tl : !
that ':it'.c?
1 10 . A *1ca, it was.
l-OR. FANICIAUSER: No further questions.
10l I
20 i CHAIRMAN B':CHEOEFER: Mr. Brenner.
I REDIRECT E!GMINATION 2i , 32 MR. 3232iMR:
21 i 9 M:. Pcnco, what we're talking about ic the touching .
1 l
2.! ;- cf &2 v:lecity limitser at the bottom of tha control rod j
,i *tIi3h Th'3 'lb
- DnCN 333I and Ihe guid3 DUbOI 10 thaD CorrOct2 1
a 23 j T:4.?/.~. ' c cer Mt. )
2763-A 1
(Nnvid7 0 Anc; those are two .oetal to metal surfaces, is that
- /
2 corract?
O A night.
4 Q If you nooded a parfact -- and by that I mean a"
watorproof or whatever fluid uc're talking about for the 6
seal -- would you re.~.y on designing a metal to metal surface 7
tecting?
8 l A No.
D Q So by design you don't need a perfect seal at 10 this point; is that correct?
11 A Correct.
1 Q Let me hypothacine, nevorthclosa, that we havo l p/
'" 73 I
a perfect ceal at thiu tr.Lnt. If the control rod drive j l
14 mechanism is renoved for maintenance, would there he water 15 leakage, even if thora vac a perfect seal at that point?
A Yoo, thera would.
<Y '
O Yncro would that water como from?
I
< M A well, there'n water in the -- batutan the control f D red d-ive mchanism e,nd the houting itacif: that would be --
l 20 l that would come out of that aran when you're t*anoving the I
,, 4 i
" P control rod drive. ,
J l 22 0 Well, hcw are .22 int 2 nance pe:sonnel pretected '
., e !!
-~
p 4
from this water les::aco which uculd occur even if we had 7'T li M, tha wo.ld's sect ,wthct scal?
C) %
20 4 A Ch2y ha a: -- it's 1.b m d ar tr.ir.gcar on. It's II
l 1
2764 l 1
david 8 1 almost in a lot af cases -- almost like a uotsuit. !
2 '
O Arc there any other measures that they would take?
3 A of course there's always radiation monitoring in 4 the area. Thena's a sump pump; that's a mechanism to take 5 the water that's on the 21ocr out of the area. .
l 6 Q All right. Lot's como back to the real world of 1
7 this particular seal,. tha metal surfaca of the velocity j i
8 limiter and the metal aurface of the tube back set coming s together.
10 If we have one that meets all the smoothness criterla; 11 it's been m13ed as well as it can het would there be any 1
12 fluid leakaqo from that ceal? ,
O w a , ve=, ehere weerd.
34 Q Eocause ,Miherontly a metal to metal surface tg j tcuching do not form a parfcct fluid-proof or watertight seal.
- g Il'the water ccming out during the maintenance n.
l procadure exceeds somewhat what you would normally see frera 3
!O just the ether water you described as being in there anyway, 10 are there sny other measuras that can be taken besides the 20 ones you described to help protect.the workers?
t m A nell, they're all -- other techniques where J
, ., n you can put some hind of a pisco of equi.pacnt around to
\ ~ t
,, y h drain the water off ac that it doesn't fall directly on
~, .
q y j the worksers or comethinrJ 1Ci that. !
+
,; O I'm corrj. Could you repeat that?
20 y ,
i
I.
2765 david 9 i A You can put other pieces of equil. ment to drain the n~
2i u.rcer any or protect the workers from the waters falling i
3 directly on them.
4 Q Cculd I inst?.11 a blind flange on a CRD housing?
5 A Af ter you take the drive out, yau, you can.
6 0 All right. Is that kind of like an umbra 11a overhe 3.d 7 thatwould prevent further 1aakage from coming down,us.a g very loose ;malegy7 s A ::cu might say that. Actually if you put what you
- 0 j might On11 e blind flanga, it's like putting a cap on 17 something to esal it ofd.
!2 O "hese various types prctectiva aceps hat T gf v3've been talking about, are they spelled ont in any 14 ins'cu tions er G3 maintenance nannals or whatever?
., uc, euoy a==.
1 4
- gl Q Ara you familiar with a document entitled " Control jy , Rod Drive Maintenance Manual," G33-9289?
I 33[ A on.*.y ir.dir2ctiy.
.l gj Q Uo11, dcas GE put cut izdntanance manuals to En !! describa these precedures for customers?
I 3 Uas, they de.
g.;
J ;
3j Q '%u talked atcut a hypcthetical perfect saal
. I i
e.,.,. i which meal a mer.a1 carrot provida. We've talked about i 1
i t.s sced a mani to metal seal as can ha provided. I ' d .'.1%e i 0 ,,,;
} cu to 2:.1% abcut 2 rel: city limiter and a subo heck stat ,
l P00RBRMAL
f 2766 1
m
/
lavid10 where there ic acratching. It's not as smcoth as it s.
could inve been. How much leakago war.d you cxpect in such a 3
situaticn derine; ceint2 nance of cont.tol rod drives?
4 A :t would probably be in the neighborhood of 5
maybe c half ga31on per minute.
6 0 Imd if a blind flange were insta'. led, this would 7
be stoppad; in that correct?
6 A A clind fir.nga would bring that to ascentially 0
zoro.
10 -
I O Jy the way, all this leahage we're talking about, 11 I the velocity limiter to tube beck seat, would any of that occur during reactor operatien?
13 A Mc .,
I4f 0 Nhy not?
15 a l 3 A Thcso two curfaces aro not in contact, and tha 10 I
! major saal cgninct tho vator ic a flange real between the 1 3
l 1*/ ! control red driva machanista and the centrol rod hcusing. l 10 i
_i O n. t ara the a cealc cot: posed of?
iD . I i A Those are catal 0-ring seals.
- .0 l i O As a rtats.10-ring it ecmpresses ao na to form t
I IM
! the, fluf.4- greof seal; is that corrset? I
}
ilrt's cerrect. '!.' hat's a rather cc::. ton seal- i
~n
'~
.' time iltnp c=acet'.on. This metal ri g clao hc1 a tuflon
-f h
.v.
tr>
.f cxting c; r.:2. S curc that it filla in any minuta cravicts : ,
i '
f* !
&ad ~;L hLlint' rk h3. i i.
l i
l . _ -
P00R BRIG!NM
2757 dvidil 1 0 Sa it's an example of the kind of coal you design g
3 when it'.3 it.poitant to have a good seal; is that correct?
3i A '! .mt's correct.
t 4 0 %2've had a lot of testimony about visual and 5 tzetile testitg of the v31ccity limiter. Ecw about the 6
i ttbe back scas; is that checked for smoothnees?
7 A Yaa, it is.
3 0 lire is that dene?
3 A Tha same 'vay, with visual ermination, et M ce tara, using the comparator.
11 0 2.3 that dons after receipt at the Zin:mer site i
t?j also?
% : haps hr. Kananen can answer that. ;
m '4 u 12; P A (Witness Xananen) That was visually at the I r :
j cite .,
73 lt 3 d 0 can you sae the tube back seat visually without H
u any ir:.nhia?
vi j!!
h A I t: ' a little difficult. We had to use 13 g) :
.i ,
g; su.rror 3. j go O could it be reached by hand if you wanted to I
y
. I p ;rfern a tactila t::st?
g A '? 3.7 . i 4 l
- . ..] 3
.I O la thera a rseson wir/ you didn't?
s
^ We didn't encennter any
.m. . i. A n; specific rencon . ,
a 1
' I at=at.*e cc 2h ;a seat.s. Thov're incide the tuba is what
.. :e .I c.
2750 avid 12 1 I'm getting at.
2{ O t;han you cay you didn't encounter any damage, does 3i that includa Ifter your visual check?
I 4: A Yes.
I 3 C J.a1 the tube back seats would not ba as susceptible i
G tc. cort.tchir.g typo danage as the velocity limiter; is that 7l correct? .
I i
8' A 'f bat's corrset.
i 9i L:R. 3R31 men: I hava no further quecticns.
4 l
!C (3 card conferring.)
I and 5 11 1
Y l feb f;.c. u t
.o m; -
i i 14 '.f 15 >
l l
n !) !
I j
e t
i ,
n w! ) i eh ii O! Ii
,1 22 l 20 '
o y .
1 s.?b 'l' ,
P00RORISINA
I!
JHBench 33 ,
2769 I
folc , 3 EXAMINATION BY BOARD dnvid '4 93 ., f. I:Y E. BRIGHT :
I.
i D rr. Ience, I presume -- and I guces I would like 3 ..;
o
,. D Er. Ernaner :o anseer thic, teo it's a very cinple thing.
I Fir.3t,idr. Pencc, or anybody else en the panel 2
. i.
, tha': 'cnows th0 ansersrs, do you have a ballpark idea of what i :.
i
(' .,
i the MS va120 for a ball beering would be?
- a. (Witness ?cace) Ye t, , probably abcut acmewhere 3 ::
l bet'.leen a : and a 4.
3 nl P
i G Ee: ween a 2 and a 4?
- n. Yan.
11 '
0 t G Eo this then is a ralctively rough curface 12 !
ccmparci to a ball bec. ring?
(3 '
l A. Ye .3 , it vculd be.
G I.re theca just acchined? Or are they polished?
13
nay're .T.schined on a lathe in a turning operation.
?
, ....;. '), Se you're depending en a lathe finish, rathar
, q chen .t polishw". fi.nish fer the RMS 637 r,
j
.I a. Right.
,e ,
o n I trac trying to think of scmething that I cculd L ,j '
i r.31ata an mis 63 to, co that overyone trould get an idea of l . !
b:w cac:% ': hat actually is, and I ccn't thiMc of anything cl2hc.:;a!. C.n12. Jon? !
l
. i.
. 3. :1.2 , I can 't thid; of 2nything right new, aither. !l t
Ok$$Al, fl 1
1 1 1
6-2 jwb l 2770 -
i l li I g 73o, it wouldn't be that badge. l k n (Laughter.) {.
3' l H11, th'3 point I uns getting at -- -
1 A. Probably there's a chrcea finish up there si:ailar i U to whct'c en here (inc.icating the microphone) that would j j
'; he, oh, p::obely a 16 or a 32, and maybe it'd be just a Th little bie. 2.ocghn: than that.
!i S' O Ih.at would te the chrome finish on the microphone? l 0' :t fes.
Mj 9 R :chly that aort of thing. i J
- d : fall, let .tc ask the rest of the quaution.
- 1 iI If Oore. t;2:s a scratch on thic piece that Oculd in any i
i S
l way hu aiynifiennt, would it be readily apptront to visual
.J j insi.cc: ion?
.S n. Y23, it wcu13, because it would stcnd out very d
- c :,I nuca on 9.2': curface.
- r j 3 C%2y, ca this ic not a rengh enough surface that l yen vould havo any prchlem in determining whether it had r
a i best scrat hod or sthn wise damaged?
'O l L OCrrCCt.
t
" i n, Ihank you.
t 2 (.3CCrd COnfCrring.) {
.. L* CEEG3 DECP. HOE?ER: '
I 0 I'm nca au e which me:ter of thee panel this is ;
- .'c r , a ?.': m : bps :Ir.. Pznca. You apoke of the vetor which ,
It i d
4 6-3 jwb !
2771 t
I neuld leni through either -- cither normally, or if it ;
2 !! t7ere sligh,:1y rougher and scmewhat more substance -- do 4
3h you knew -- anci you said that the radioactivity was very ii 'l lh .cw . Dc you have cny idea -- can you quantify what the I 1: l 3d zctivity lovel of the 1. ster is? Or can any of you on the fi l.
9 p panol? l "t .
'Witz:esne's conferring.)
l l'
0 3. (Witness ?cnue) It appears as though no one on !
, I
'; the : pan!J. really has that kind of information. I do know I i.
10f M.au frem the enperience of workers out in the fiald, that i
i '.' h,l f.t's .torw. ally a very stall percantage of their allowable 12 ,
Cosage, but I don't think I could quantify it much more h
C than thnc.
O I3 that allescable in terms of what the maximum 1:,3 ! c.cscce in Part 20, or como of the ALARA requirements are?
1, Icw are yet, defining that?
y A. f.Wi ness :Tannnen) The percont ge of doce that f
- ,; 70u u
- ul.2 get from the water leaking through and pass the o
a
, real '::culd ha a small percentage of ycur radiatica exposure a
- ;! t!ailo y,u're doing thic maintenanca cperation. Most of the ,
4 p, - e:pecure that you'ra going to get in changing the drives L cut ic drcn :ackground radiation. !
r Et this -- the doce that you're gatting frem this- !
i p tntar " $ d'**1 o , pct $a :eal is a rmail pcrticn cf that. !
,; D. : a2e. Je $2t in terms of the workers overall P00RBRMAl 1
r G-4 $wb 2772 I '
a::pesure, J." would not be a major contributor even if you hc.d tha c::ca .,1ve leakage that was talked abcut or 5 hyncthesicod?
di 1 1
A. That'u correct.
g' l
5 N- S Ncv in recponsa to a question of Mr. Brenner's 1
iI st.me:re reonti:ned that if a blind flange wero installed, i l I
7 the 1:-:nkage would be. zero. When, if at all, vould such 9' flanJen bo installed? Are they installed under the current !
S j' plc.na? Or will they be installed? ] l
.4 i
'O h A. kr:n11y uhr.n maintenance operationa such as l
!l l' t:wra cetrt.rol rod drive changeouts are pericrmed, you n ;
'Ep d.:cp cna. rod, nova it out, and you have a replacement rod )
i O ='d*>>=su?1,atdout1,ite91ee-i l
l S.: there'n only one hole open at a tina, and
' 4 ;I 4 12l s therC a not really a need to put this b1:.nd finnge on, 1
- 1? ', biceuco you're just -- you're putting the other drive back ;
4 7 . up in:o i~nt pcaiticn.
?
-l
... ) Mell, if there's any length of time between the is : inctallation of the rod, would a blind flange be used than?
i 0
20 4 .1 Well, thero'a no one working in the area at the 4
- M tino. That's tho t' ting. The craw drope the control red !
n tiriv: cut, nr.vss it outside, getc a rebuilt, a refurbished ;
i j l
.o c:.ntr,1 red cri7s, brings it in on the cart, and puts it t t
s i
- n h :.ch !.n i. c : cln That's the only crew that's being exposed i i
i
.- t: ' C '. 3 nteJr. They're not in thers when the drive is cut, l
- (
i 2773 6-5 jwb {
.f I G. If t. tis crew, after it took out a drive, installed 2 ] a flangre, :nd : hen later, before it put the new one in, j
(
i l 31 exh tha flanga off, wculd there be more or less exposure t
for that c.tew? Or wculdn't it make any difference?
- h 3 , A. 'Eitness Penco) That's going to depend a lot 3.' ~
on 1cu nuch the water is leaking past the seal, but in L
7 : ccliig you .nay got mo:ca c::pozure from putting the flange 3f ca r.d ta%f ng it back off again because of the time involved
?
l 3 g thaa if you ju.1t left it off and the workers left the area.
9 10 Ett there tava teen cases where there has baon 11 ::oma e mas:iva leakage, and you put the drivo -- the blind i;
!2 ll ?langs on, and then go do some work on the top of the O 1.3 ., ,
- e==ec.c em remove thce cone =o1 =ed and vue a ne<< ene sack i
- i o' an tha:e. to minimi::c the amount of leakage.
II a
- 3 i, D. P you know -- do you have any instructione or
'S.
l Uuidclinas when you wo".1d use a blind finnge and when you o
I
'i vouldn .:? C: 10 this just a natter of judgment?
1 J l{ 1 That's only a matter of judgment.
0 Is it s::per.sive, or difficult? That's two 20 }i questions, I guesa -- to put a blind flango on and take it
- 1 r ?ff?
- 2 .4c, it's nct.
, 1
.,j c 'e n ta ns of the 63 'JHS figure, is there any !
}
2,. g: tern b: d ::cruin of stror for that? I metn, either pluc i
'): ""l!'.'rl".' T: TTl?/ ILOCC2 9 l !
1
t I
I 6-6 jwb 2774 1 f., :To, this is normally defined as a ma:cimum
. O ,
, .ond:.tiar..
3 C. 3nt the :sstimony was that there is not likely 4 to 60 neal3 that are slightly rougher? Is that correct?
5' rhat if rc nghness <: cess in at all, it ucc13 he much 3 .roughcr th.tn that?
i 7!; L 1mLaa117 you'll have something that'a substan-I aj tiall-1 bet':ar than that, And if there is any kind of a O problem, i': usually shows up as either like a scratch or i
10I an entre.t.cuy rough loc?.cion.
I C. (lw is the comparator -- I guess the word " set" 11l..
!2 , isn't corract, but doa.3 it show what 63 RMS is? Or does v
12 - it show what scue other lower figure is?
- 3. Ecth. It normally has a range. In other words, Ah it has small spota en it that will have a 4, an 8, a 16, a 13[
- S 'l I 32, a 63, a 0.00, a 500.
17 , O. I see. And whoever is doing the inapection knows
- s '1 .]
which surfaco it's supposed to conform to, I take<it?
.3 L 17all, on the comparator, it is marked as to what 20 j it6 tcaignatien is, and it'a usually defined in the l 1
,_ : J .3pa:!.ff. :stf.cn3 . and the drawings.
l
- , j 0 :: SelievaIir. Kananen said he didn't know whether j e -
,el e hhe innpachcs:s wcra prenant at all times when -- during
?
q 7 ;he 72ri.:d3 Uh2n the m.'.11 wrights ware buffirq off the seals.
U
.n.- l I' i 1.1Le na J:, vore you there at all tisco during the !
6-3 $wb 2775 I pericds during the inspections that you yourself
?' perfornst.?
3 A. P71tr.cce Kananen) Yes.
1 0 to ycur lack of 'tuotiledge is cnly to the ones 6 that Mr. Pt.rla perfor. sed. Is that ccrrec't?
3 IL ea 0 'les.
7l 3I (3 card conferring.)
i
) C3hT727J7 BECEHOEFER: That's all ths questions M the LJnrd ha:.
1 "ha Ecard would like to taka a break, but I don't i t ll!;
12 h kne:t uh2ther tre should finish up.
Il fl' i t.]
[ Kl. CCNNEn: We will have no questions.
15 ':.n. EnEmmn: Uc have no questions.
u Sl C D IDMAN BECHH0E72R: Ms. Ecsik, will you have 4
i'v.rth.+r quLWions?
.s ]
C' F3. ICSIK: Mot at this tin.s.
l e: Ci!AIT4?AN 3EcliHOEFER: Dr. Fankhaucer? ,
n h D2. 7AMEHAUSER: I have juct a couple of
$* )
23 ; p.actienc.
t
)
- 2. CinIRIG.N BE0EEOEFER: Okay, why don't you ask 1
l
.;. them, then '
1
\
l 4
C20SS CN BOARD l U"! 02. F;.lEUTUSER:
O ..
l 9 : .;)1ievn. there vac se=ecno On the panoi that 4 b
l
\' _ _
= . . - . - ._ - - - . . .- - - _ .. . _-
I 6-8 jwb 2776 7 naid -- correct mo if I'm mistaken -- that background O , rudineunsmidse greneer een ue .cm.e a raduean I
3 received f2 om leaking scortator coolant wator? In that
,3 ,
correct?
3 A. (Witnoaa :te.nanen) Yes.
f a to you have nny idea of the amount of background 7 radiation one would receivo during that timo?
3 k A. That would vary dcpending on the amcunt of time the planh's been in operation. It would vary, depending gl on a lot of different circumstanceo.
I g l B Parneps wa neod to define what " background
. radiation" is. Would you defina that for ua?
I-MR. COM1ER: There's nn O ,. J, Objaction, your IIonce.
e,jl c biguity ceaaping in hero.
DR. FNE:iIAUSE3 That's what I'm t:.ying to clarify.
a ;
t' En. cotman: Dackground radiation is normally j nannt as that which c.41sta in the atmoaphore, **hich we're all expeced to right ncw. I think Dr. Pankhauanr utarted t
out referring to "the" background re41stion, meaning that 20 1, tihich existed under whero theco control roda nre.
2;;
Anct if that is the correct understanding, that
, cuestion wtu jt'et onowered, beenuno he said it would vary, j
,s g deptnding ca 2a langth of artice of the aquip:acnt. l ER. FMiKHEGE3: IL it plossa the Dcard,,the
.g
- l 1
- F00R ORIGINA[ :
i
i e
S-9 jwb 2777 l 4
i I question tiat l was just asked was for the witness to define jl O
2 i what he mc2nq by " background radiation." And if the 3 counsel wcur.d permit this witness to answer, I think this i
4l would be clr.rified, i
3[ !
CELIRMAN 35C:GOEFER: I think tha witness can 3; sarlier wh2n he unid "back.Jrcund." i 7[ !
dn. CONER: Woll, I would like the record --
6l Dr. FankhaIcer to clarify what he means, because we will 1
91 have to write preposed finding: en this, and if he means 10 n the saca background that the witncas meant in terms of l'
11 existing t' tera in that particular chamber, that's fine.
U v'
12 "Z IRMAN BECHEOEFER: Well, let the witness first O 2 1
exviata a'te ne =ea=2- 2ne=o =ev de = sieuity-M l UITNESS HMTANEN: I meant the radiation coming
~
15 'i -
frem the area undar the vassol and other parts, as oppesed 13 to the radiation coming from the leakage that we wara J
- l
- 7 j diccussing. !
i !
,d
- 3 l 3Y DR. PAN 2ERUSER:
1
'i i 19 ;- 0 Go " background rndistion" in this case has nothing !
a i n
I 10 i, to do with rediatien that we are all receiving right now.
l f
a( n Is that co:: rect?
t 7.2
- h. Taut's t ca.
j' :
n :bd yce said thct it varied over a wide range. !
- ,3 :( !
i f, CJlld y?x '3011 us ".Jhat that rangO might h3? l
= .
- m. CsuB2, es3=uc,. chme is seyond the ;
1 P00RDEIEL ;
i 6-10 jub 2778 J
I contention ccmpletely.
2 "T. ?AEGIAUS32: This continuous objection is --
l
" l certainly ." Mr. Conner is aware -- is disruptive to an o ,
.' a arderly qu;ctioning. In this particular case, the witness f
, a 5 has scated tiat there wea graater radiction frca the 3 Sackground tl .n frc.m the leaking mater. That presumes 7I that the witness has semo familiarity with w;at the L
3L background radiation is, and I don't think it's at all 9j unrencenable to persue that line of questioning.
10 km. COE?ER I rcccgnize this is not i
li f, Dr. 7c.n? dance.r's centantion, but he is still bound by t
12ja the 3imits of it. And while I hate to interrupt his idea O 42 1
(
ee an c.ree=1y crocs-c:: amination , it is imgrepe= since i 4
"40 that is totally beycad the question of whether the seals il
'34n mast minic:n ?acifientions for smoothness. And to get D !
into th:b visdcm of the Commisciencrs in developing Part 20, j 13 E
!I C' and things li%e that, i.3 where wo're lending, and that's
- b . why tm're objecting.
- (Scard conferring.)
1 TJ !, CEIPyaN BECEIIOETER: I think that line of I, l 21 [ q2ections gces far bayond the contention, so the objection l 22 in n. tair.+.d.
E M.R. 3EIL3: ilr. Chairman, then I would mova j
]
/ that ';he r.n/ar gi'ren hy the witness as rolutive to what 1;
'"wce.gtnani r:31st'.on" is and how much was in thera he I
1 I J i
6 -11 jwb l 2779 l
i s t I ctr:.cken., ;ince we're not abla to test hia ability to j 7.s
! ) 1 1
's~,/ ,3 .
1
(
knew whJ.t background radiation is. :
i 3 ^5.. CONNER: We agr>2e to that.
4] ~Ecard ccnferring.)
9 !
3' II. DRENNER: Mr. Chairman, in 'friting my 3
ff.ndingo in ny head, as I often do as I sit here in this li 71 proceeding, I thought : hat was kind of a ureful finding li 2y to have in. I'm surprised at the alacrity with which h
?!! Mr. ':ennar agreed to surike it. { l t i t i M j; I suppose enc can say it's his client's plant, e
.i 1: [i in tha end. I for one sm.s going to include it in my l h !
il NL findings. IE you strike it, I can't.
It
/-~,
p: l t
- x. -
! . ;2 : 1 I aluo agree with Mr. Heile's logic, however, )
il i; Onat if you don't strika it, further questions probing the ;
i hasis for the.t conclusion by the witness wculd be appropriato.
L 6
(3 card conferring.) ,
M2, CONDER: Uc11, I would neto one raore thing i
then, in vie.s of Mr. Branner's stateTeent. We've brought i V i a witnacces hars prepared to testify en the secothness of !
l U coals. We did not bring in somebody Vno happena to know l I the q2antition of radiction that may be emitted from a 3
i
. . . recca'. cv u the entira lifa of the plant. And if you're i i
.3 ccing =. on1:rga tha centantion to include this, tre may have !
("x :: qM miac:Od*' who happens to be kncsledgeable in thic, v) t
\
j or to '.: sh 1: up in the " GAR. It may be in there; I don't EM (R@gg
i 6-12 jwb 2780 4 1
- ?.oW e
~ 2 D . 3REliNER: Uell, the whole poinb of course 3 is thac -- I'm oure the ' reanon why the witnecc included 1 :.t in hin en2ver is it hcppens to put this whole situation 3 in ce:dcut as to unat it in va need to be worried about, 3 if anythir.c.
j t3 card conferring.)
CDI?RA!! BECIiHO2PER: The Doard helieves that t.he Statimor.y -- the ansvar should stay in. I would like 0 g1
?O i,' v.o find out ihere you're driving, or what you could like 3 t I h
Mh .o establich. }
i i
il u il DR. FAtilmAUSER: Well, a statertent has bees tI w u2de that tu amount of radiation that a worker would i
- { receiva from Icaking wcter would he considerably below t ii ' t.he backgrocnd radisticn an defincd by the witnesa. And h
jai I think that we necd to get scme quantition in here so i
. . ij that we know how important it is for the coala to ba 3
f t; y smooth, or whether we have some problom. And uithout 1; y .,
ner.bers, particularly cince the witness apparently does not 20 h havo 2ny numborc at all available for us, then I'm not f
ll 5 m i 1
c2rtain t~ tat that witnces is -- l
- r. CnI2MAIT 3ECEEOFFER: I beliavo the witnesc I
.. trebiiiad unt the ncitera would vary cenciderably, ,
f-~ m d :pendir.g on the conditione at the ti.mo, and that there !
.a ia nc Crc _a 2:&er, ce probably even a group af numbers.
e l, y
i 2781 6-13 jwb ;
I! (B;ard conferring.)
O -
Cl%IIl4AN BECIEOEFER: I think semo further j C c:ueation may bc -- but I'm not sure answers as to precice 1 ,
, jj i vimbers tt an1 given tir.e are that significant in the i "5 , I' eento::t of thil partict.lar contention. <
' ; i
" lf Feracpc further exploration in relationship to ;
it !
,; the dcce 'h.ich would amount to leakag.2, and acmo level of "l t
') '
what's no mally background, would be incorporated, so !
l i i 1 end JTB S[r n'aybe with those guidelines. j
@6 ;
2r 7 fols'O [
il 1 11 l,
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l AR7 Orl I DR. FANKIIAUSER: I uan trying to doteratine what O e that dcce would be.
3 CEAIRMAN BEC11110EFER: Well, I don't think you 4 need the precise doce, but, anyway -- I don't think these 5 people know what the precine done is, nor am I sure -- in 6 fact, he tactified he didn't know what the precice dose was.
7 MR. !!EILEs Idr. Chairman, that is encentially 0g my problem. I don't know if thsse people have the ability l
1 0 to make the statement it would be less or more than the .
l.
10 background. My problem lu I think we have conothing on '
l 11 tha record without an adequate qualification of the witness 12 to maka the statament, no I assume that is uhat Dr.
l
- =9'*"$ *-
O 'a , ' "**"" " " " ' S '
u And if, in fact, the witness is not prepared to 13 make the statement for thane proceedings-- ;
':0 !!R. BREMtfER: Mr. Chairman, all those statements 7 , of lawyers are going nouhcro. I suggest the Board, if no one else, ack Mr. Kananen what the basis for his utatement was. l m l.
- 9 I lin. CONNER
- We have no chjection to that question.
20 ; C11 AIRMAN DECHi!0EFER: Woll, actually tho Board
- l would like to know. I don't know whoue cuerstion it 10,
- -i but why doesn't the witnesa try to answer it?
33j hit"JE3S 2ANAHEU: Chay. Concerning this
- g .] mattar, I have per
- anal experience, as part of a control I!
gg rod drivo change-cut crew.
b Y
2783 j The reason that I made the atetement concerning O 2 *ao re1ative radiatio eo e receivea from ene weter teexiae in relation to the background was that it's a proportion of 3
4 the overall doae received by the workers is locs than the 1 guidelinos cet -- less than the federal guidelines, all right?
3 That's the top line.
G The time that you are allowed to be in there is 7
, ' set by the beslth physics people, depending on the radiation a 1 1
g survey which is performed that day prior to the start of the j g work. So you are all running on the clock, so to speak, g with the health physica person watching the clock, telling g you when,to come cut.
fg The reason th.t I said it's a small proportion of C ycur total deso in because of the time duration you are exposed to that water. When you start to lower the drive
[ down, you rig up the esbles, lower the drive dcwn, you are I
t only expecod to this dripping -- in this casa, this is all 17 l r it is, in dripping water -- for a mattor of maybe a minute i
10 ] or two mir.ticas at the mort.
This in a vary officient opcration. The tools
{
and the oculpmont are mot up for efficiency. It does not
, take very long at all once you start to drop the drive, you
~~
ri .
) put it on the cart and you're out of there. I w d II So that'; primarily the basic for my acuumption l' i l
- j
- i. that ycu will get e very small prepcrtion of ycur total ;
, a s l
Pogg g,,@fmi
i l cr3 2784 -
1 radiation e:posure from this leakage.
.p 2 CL FANKHAUSER: I think it's realily apparent 3 that the witneas does not have the qualifications to have 4 made the statenents that he has made,'and I think that --
5 ML CONNER: Objection --
G DR. FANT IDSE2: These particular statementa made 7 [ relating to the background of radiation exposure released 3 from this water, and unless we can get some numbers, he is 9i , rapsating perhaps wh'at he has read come place, and I think I that is not appropriats testimony.
10 l ,
11 MR BRENN2R: Mr. Chairman, I've got to get 12 l witnesses out of here. I think Dr. Fankhauser should writa 13 his findings udter the hearing is ovar, unlaan he has a 14 L motion that he wanto to make in proper support of this point.
- I f
13 it All I heard was a speech, and let's just get on
!I 16 i; with it. Ha can maka the same argument in his findings.
u g {l The record la there, as to why the witness said what he said.
13 : Dr. Fankhausar can argua that's not goed enough. That would I
je ; be che end o.? that.
I Dr. Maura has been sitting here this weck, several
- .
- c d, g; j weeks the laat time, and he's got to get back. And I have 1
'l i 22 j another witne:m afher him who has to got back.
l l g CIUJ:EEAN 3ECE20EFER: Well, I think we will deny j
'i i l - g ; the motien to atriha, and you can file propos:d findings, i
I
. . .:. as Mr. 3ronno: said.
'C*3 j 4/gz :
I ar4 2785 1 EI DR. FANK!! AUGER:
I
~ -
2 O Kr. ICananan, icu have no numbers to cupport the 3 stateaunt t*: a'; 'j ou have m.ade recarciing backgrc'und rasiiatir n 4 ar compared -11:.. the doso reeeived from lecking water in 3 the r.32cter? .
g A (E ::. esc xace.nen) '.'ha t 's correc t . The numbers 7 wculd 'rary dap mding en the cir=umstances.
31 0 '1 :2. But you don't have any conTidence limith --
3 '4.1 . COtiMI?R : Objection; a l.rd and anrtiered.
30 7 rmr'ent 2 '. s a . 1 g.. 'J:s . Imr.NMER : !Ir . Chairmrx tt , '1 . ion't think that I. '
33 was c.We.:
1, ,.
Cl1I.RMAtl (MC:ll' CIT':R ; Objectaon aurruled on that I one.
b, p
- I
., v ' 'l DR. F?3'.4117.UCIIR :
a ,
I Q 07 you know uhat thosa limir.s mig.ht be that 9- l0 ,
.., d yav :.ro r :.:!ar ring to?
4/ e' l(
,6 13 py A ( ' '. cnese "acanen) No.
g 0 'Cun% yc,u .
A,. DR. PA1!KI.AU'"ER : No further questionc.
<l O
,.l (33ard cen % rring.)
,. :- C:n:RI:At1 IECHITOIlTI:R: Mr. Drenner, Jo you havn
- -r. r t'
b j
further cuasti. ann?
23 ^
. g. . .
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na.a mn . 7.,o .
.n
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r.r5 2786 l
1 FURTHER BOARD EXAMINATION g
!! BY CHAIRPJJ DECHH0EFER:
S C : would like to follow up just or e thir.g on the i
4[ last series of quentients. When you are talking about 5 a small percentage, I take it that the workmen or you i
Gl wore wearing film bcdges, that type of thing, when you do 7 this work?
Q; A (Witness Kc.ncnen) Yes, when we are doing -- we 9{ had film badges on the top of our head, which wac closest 90 to the area Of highest radiation, and then also for whole g body on the center of th.: truck of the body.
n !
Q New, of your knoulodge, did the film badgos --
i g what did they indicato in term's of your total c::posure yj during the period of time when you make one of these changes?
g A The film isn't develcped after each chango-out.
g; Do you mean for an entire cutage? Or -- we uno dosimeters I
y., ' to cheek like on a per entry basis exposuro. Tha film i l 7,3 '- badgas aran't developed until after, you kncv, after an g outage is over.
3 Q Well, I tras t:.ying to figure the few short
,,,, minutes that you ca .5 you wculd be exposed to the leakage,
-s
)
y ! what the pareentage of the allowable doca would ba, in l
- -m l l
I '
. terms of not cpecific numbera, maybe, but did the various l l
.. ,; film b.idgas or other measuring devices, sra you avara of -
O _ what they sheted for en? 02 thace entrics, in uning off tho
..S q Y
er6 2787 1 rod or putt.Lrg the rod back in?
2 A That variec with what part of the crew you are, 3 and how long you are in there, and what the radiation level 4 in the area that you are werking in was.
5 BY CR. HCOPER:
3 O Hr. Kanaren, do you have any ball park ideas 7 or ranges of what the e::pcaure might have been on one of I e3 those events where you say you go in and do these" things?
9 Do you have any idea aboch how nuch is involved in one of l 10 these acurcions, where you encounter the water?
11 Ncw, I knoi, you are not a health phycicist, I 12 guoss you're rot. I'ra not sure. Are you a health physicist?
c A (Witness Kananen) I've had health physics 14 training.
g C Q Cc you hz.ve any idea about the ball park range 16 ! 18 'ahat we rec 11y went to find out hers, of what your exposure l
yy might be?
8 16 A Like a coupla hundrad MR for a day'a work.
3,3 0 nll, that's Ocmathing lika that, acw, okay,
,e hou much Out of a couplo hundrad Mns would be from the water e$:p;stire?
2;[
gq A l'd say lecc than .'.0 porcont, bectuca of the I
li '
g fact tan t'e water Ic2hc doun, is sprayed off when you ccre oat of the contaire. cat.
O ".! "IC U 'JC h o*J that you haiten'h Cea3n!"cf. thiG, but
% Q f ;O ra/q; .
l ar7 2708 1 what's the basis for saying 10 percent? Can you give us some O 2 feel for having a little bit of confidence in what it is?
3 I kno's you don't know these things, you haven't been 4., measuring ther, bu*. can you cay that when people stay in 3 longer, if you 14 ave -- any you stay under the water drip longer, why, it would be a bigger fraction of your 200 HR, or Gll 7 somothing like that?
8 A Yeah, thst'c part of tne basis, and than also g looking at the radiation survey that's dono by the health 10 physice persen, you can tell where the high area of radiation p '
is, and you can form a mora relative opinion on the areas in that you cheuld stay ausy from and minimizo your time in.
g ,
O There are soma monitors in there that tell you g,3 l scuothing, tee, aren't thera? You said inaldo you had some I
g radiation monitor devicac, inedd there you can use when you g are working?
g A No, not when us are doing the fork.
10 0 okay, but you feel as though the 10 percent is a gft renconable figure in your 200 MR for anything during 3,) exposura; is that corroct?
You.
~q A
ij g
Q All right.
I
,,,,, Dll. UCOPE3: Thank you.
~ i; ,
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.,,, ?l (Beard confarring.) !
^
3 C:IMRMAN DECEICE:"ER: I think that's all tho ,
u
. ---.r. %
j
i I
l ar8 2788-A 1 questionc vc have.
O 2 I believe we tould like to ta'<o a braak for a 3 few minutos l 4 M 2., B.EmCR : Mr. Chairman, jtat before wa break, S maybe this 1; pia-in-the-ahy optimism, but I'm vondering i
l 6 if, for Mr. la':.ra's sche.lule, it's conceivable that based 7 on the exhau:;tien of tha cubject so far this morning, that 1 3 partiec will hava no cro 3s-examination of the tritnesses on 3
this cc,ntontf.cn.
10 I just winted *.o ach tha+: question. 1 i
t jy N 1. C0!GT23: Jased upon the writttm teatimony, j l
12 we will hnve to question; for Mr. Maura.
l 13 MM. BAETER : All right. Ecw about Mr. Martin?
14 Do you hv,3 grs.stions of Mr. Hartin? l gg M?.. CONNIRs " cry f99 He's cnly gob three g quecticas, three ansLers, l
- 7 l E 3RE'4133.R
- Any cthor partian hav:a questiens 4 8 of Mr. Maura?
f 10 ME. 2CSI3: J>.st a few. l t
i 20 E. DRE CR: Thenh you. i-4 OE?rIUdi DECTICZ?ZR: 3e back by about 11:20, I 3,
ll a
guCS3 -- I'm icr!.~f, 11;h .
f 4a,.,
.d (M c233.)
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end 7 .,,,!;
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.. - ._. . . -- . . - = .- - . -
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2799 i
vi6 ?li CUh2RMAN 3ECH!OEFER: Back on the record. $
i i
.ridi 2 ',' L > tray of the parties have further qu3stionsof .
i !
take l'- this panel hand on, I think, the one or two questions I g i{ .
- 4 au t,ad? \
4y: . I I; i Mr. Connc::7 h
! I ts N, ML CONHEn No.
' I
- 'n. DRENNUR: I thought overybody caid no before i
j L . the .rcah.
o CBILIGN 3ECE20EFER: Oh, did they? I -- I guess ,
b.- thi.s p1 nel iu aucuced !c: -- it's excuuod.
M 11, Glitncscu.i ex:tsed.)
1 i l
. .: j Mo ":o rea:1y f ar tir. Martin. i i
4 is 'a "Jh:n onr en, ll v4 THC0:AS D !CJtTIN i:
wc; cn1100 no a witn:sas, and having bean first duly sworn, i , ,i ,
we .t e:camined and t<.W:ifiad as fiollowa 1
g- ) DET2CT EXJJIINATICH l 1 >
I in l} M3. KOSIK: Let the record reflect that I.ir. Thomas t l
.ij Mu tjn is on the stand to tectify for Miami Valley Power l i
po ,. Project en rmtention 16, and f. hat is direct teatimony i l
- , 1 on c
- :nuuM:.caa ~i5 and 16 has a~.:tady been admitt:ed into the i
- r
- :o':=. ,,
t CliI 2%H ?tCUIQ?EE: I think technically it's l a 49 4 6e i. e *g6 $ 9 h g, m mmom m 1s. , ,
I
, 2790 t ,
i david 3' 1 2ri. ROSIX: Okay.
2 ~.:EI2 MAN BEC:IHOEFER: wo you might identify the j i
paragrap a _:.r.6 --
l r \.' <
t 4 h; E. 3REIm2R: Wo have no objection to the 1
cinicuic::.
3[
I
- j, m. 002iNER
- To speed it up, we hava no objtection i l 7l o to it seing cUaitted.
l' 3a '"123MAti DSCEHOEFER: Okay.
4 9 j' '?he tacts. mony on contention 16 is cdmitted. .
- 1 1 I cudocch?.r il now that that is only paragrapha 31, 32, 33, g, u o
yj and I giise. 34 applion to thoce contentions. Is that correct?
r, ., i '. . M.OSIK: 'res,
- it is.
a .l.
a n
3?hI2bmN DEC3HOEFER: Okay.
- i 9
%'ho docirmenu referred to follows transcript page
. 2 M 9 .. }
i
,;; l IE. KCSIX: The v.itness in ready for cross i
. o <nrinctf.cn .
'i il CTERMA11 32CHHOEFER: Mr. Conner?
N' CICSS 3XAMINATION
,_- d
- Il 13Y HR. CON 24ER:
u- ,
o
'1 Iir. Martin, in your answer to 31, you cay the
, O
- s. scl - - :!:x .onghness of the scal does not meet the
_ y
. : p ei..:.cttirn :. j e =, ,
l p . :.2a: spo::idi:::tions are you talking about? ,
V ;
3 ~: m talking Acut crecificaticne that rough !
~
r P00R C 0lNhl i
II 1
I 1
2791 1.
hvi .' 3 1 et rfc cn g 2iG) - that thing you've been talking about that 0i they g:'.ve - 7.311, wa sc.on it when we got half way done with i
t1 :nn, lh at:2n it and we was instructed at the beginning G[
i 4e I
tc c'mck che J tal surf 5CJ.
b Ir Kananen caid that mi11 wrights was -- and after [ ,
C. wt cett;1. Wad. about half ofthem we got this -- yoti know -- .
! j.
7o I -- uh$s .a :ht first time I unen it on the jcb site. I j.
3
.I l
? - ds.n' E knew x o it tras before. ;
l 1
, i
. - L.1 this tima I started checking the coals by feeling
, i
- (
%p
- 1 tMm a.::.d v:.c 2.11. Bt.t yet couldn't tell them by visual because l-l 1
- j i a.1
- f !:acu 'sa t rough by fas1. ,
'; n l ~
.. :3. %en you cculdn't -- different types of I-l n mc teri;.1,. .:r fia couldnc tell by looking at the -- feeling ,
b.i
- j ci t acr..
- I l t
- l Ari I asked I r. Kananon and he said that they j i
i j we.::n' t - '/a misn't Srpposed to do it. Ho told En '
I
- c. ,
.3;.ac3.Ecal"c) it van because of a smart ass onaswer. He i .
- n. I nuked te 13 I hed a eclibrated finger.
1' l j I told him -- ho told me just to 1cok at them j I
t h and al:. cf tha.n Nan rotsher than the pre::cribed thing on the ,
d i
~, c:\r6, I I
,i
,; .T
~
~
k
~
1 3 Af tsr thc.t titm ~~ ;
4
. .10. . CCHU23: I acc that it be Jrrichen; it's curiev.mc 'n
. Otampt to onlarga his tactimony. It's not P00R BRIGINIL \
, , - . ---. - ~n---
5 1 2792 f
ciavid4 rssponsive to my questica.
U ,
~
I trove it be ritricken and that the witness be
~
directed to answer my question, which is, very simply: what 4
s9ecificacien are you talking about?
3i' 2cerd conferring.)
3
'31E WITNESS: The specification on the -
7i '
l (Ecerd conferring.) i e
! MR. 3RSNNEn 17c11, Mr. Chairman, I thought the a
~
testin.ony ahcut the cel:..brated finger goes to that 10 gaestion cince that apparently is a speicification, il namely, tita ccmparator.
p~ '
CR.I~1t!AN DECHII0EFER: I think the question was answered., 'iche answer went a little beyond -- considerably i3l la I b3yerd the grestion. But I believe your questien was l
eacwerad, ac --
.D. CONNER: So, your Honor, it's obviously -- l 9 i q they'ra trying to beef up their evidence in chief by P
13j puttirg in this extra material. I don't think it's proper, -
"I The question was nor ic I ::hink it should be allowed.
n
"' l. the wcfd3.s oimplent. What I might have asked next is i,
si4
t, diff2rtut.
. , ., i
~*
- ! I'm aching what cho cpecification is. Mr. 3ranner en .I
' l
" ' a; pars.c:17 chi:_h.3 it's a calibrated finger. But I still don't 1
y a.174 ca nacu(r to q; quaction ac to what cpacification he's i
awa a. . . E 'b cb h/'a )o .)_ y
~
, l
- m[g3y ;
1 2793 l
- 1. . ? aard conforring.)
(}davidS ( l 2I t31AT.m4AH 3ET HOSF3R: I -- we decline to strike i
3; the answer but we'6 like another answer. Wa think the 1 '
4 'l questica p::co ?.bly hasn't been fully answered, at 'least. Explais 0
3 h wht tha specification was or what the -- what apecification t'
3, were you tt'kiag about? Or --
7 TE] NITHESS: Okay. The specification I was 3 h t:1kup t:br..t when wa E.nally did see the comparator -- I h
3 d was ;old, :p kn')w, which pint was supposed to be '
q i.
10 4 tM rought.at and then that point I felt of it and then 1i !'kl o1 the ocul and the sea.'. was -- you know -- fairly much
!2,j' roughor.
O Uj 7o2 know I can't toll rms, but it was definitely Il
!.39 rougine. ': run, vary noticeable.
!i 4; i rd R. c:;:mER:
-n l
H jl' Q nr2 rou talking about the point on the ;
e
- ;- cc rpr
- or that ahmied the 63 rms?
11 A Tas, sir. t
;g ;i -
0 The 53 r:ns; is that the specification you're t! a !* talk.7.n3 Ibout? ,
!! i l'
c : a. That uac the pint where they said it's mpposed , II l l 3> J te, b.i th.it s n::th, t.nd it wacn't. ! i
~~ i ! !
o n" ' O 22 that :pecification ycu are talking about in 1
\
1 g , 4 yuar ananor -- I j j i
; A I'* talhir.g -- what I'm talking about in what they i POORORlgjg.. l ,
I
1
\
2794 I 4 l i 1 d m iri d 3 teld ma and they pointed out it's supposed to be this 2 i smooth taid i', wasn't. f s' I don't have any idea of what ras of either ', A r o one of them, bitt they pointed out one thing and another. I l 1
~
d fcl.t ca5- and the othar and the seal was rougher than the place
~
. th y pointed out en tha card.
7 "j; Q Mou, what training did they give you to teach you ft 3
,i hcw to un thic coqara':cr? ;
- i I A ';.v27 never gia ma no training at all, sir. We }
F, gn " J But I'm a millwright. I mean, q wcat through :his before. 11 ) whan R:. Innanen told an I was supposed to icok at -- I mean -- i l3 ~ I des.1 a lov. With scals 2nd you don't look at a ceal. You (~ g t '2 i
~~
4 feel a ceal, !
, l I"., !!
( ' It's -- you knew -- it's a metal seal -- to t
'. 5 detect ::ughn2:s. I menn, I don't de it every day at work, f a,
but I Io it on quits a tov occas:.cnn when the occasion i ' i arieaa. . I 4
,1
- Tou fee.1 it. You don't look at -- I'ta got the
's
, 'd J quali.!icati:ns. That's what I do for a living, that type of n,
-- 9 ucrh, ar.d it iac rcugh., I r.can -
C 0 ?:ur nraining as a millwright included the 4 1"- utse el crigari. tors? , t 2
- h 12r r sir. ',
I ( L > -l C --"cra %ic cace? t i
- ." i.. 21: sir.
l
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l P 2795 s david 7 1 Q .wd you had ured them before? ! l \ 2 {l A Yes, cir. 4 3 0 I think in your volunteered answer you talkod t 4, l about -- you said something to the effect of not having had a : 5 cer.;pa- ator at first. l l 3, A Yes. I said uc did about half of the control rods. l 7 Tht.t we.a befers they -- that was ever brought up -- that g van for the CC people for uc. You see, it utan't at thepoint g(( whcre wa were checking the rods. Thatpasabcuthalfofthem.l to O :Ut, now if ycu waro train 2d as a milluight to I j, uso a compt: rater why did, you go through 50 without using I
$ ~>~! .
ens' l~3 j. h I didn't kncu you were supposed to. They didn't I ray c word about it r.ntil -- I didn't say 50. I said 50 i
- 2. ,i J 4
,3 i pm acnt. I -- nchody said anything about this cogr.rator
...e'u, originn11y. f.asy told me to lock at it. Didn't cay a I
- s. n, word ab.mut it. I -- when I saw the :cuparater, they said H
,,, it was supposed to be this smcoth, and it wasn't.
o j,
,g I rac epcot, and I asked them about it.
w,,
, f .hd the answer about the calibrated fingar. Now, l
4
, it scum th it sas thr. way you were supposed to check, by J 1
l
., N feeling: it. At O.c tics they told no just to 1cok at it.
. - - 1 ,
- ! 0 L ?.3 didn't tell ycu what the standard was or !
- e. . . ;
3 . i vh;.: 7cu .ccra 1:ppocad tc deal for. You just went ahead and j
' l GLc. it's -
.g
!! . 70 , sir. I m a told on ec=perator which placos !
P00R DEM .
i 2796 j david 8 1 thnt tha r,en was supposed to go thatsmooth, and then I l 2i i ju;st -- i : 3h Q Yau said you vere -- just a minute ago you said i 1 4 you waron't givr.n a compr.rntor until something like 50 l 3 had been 1.cohad at. G A I said 50 per ant I don't know why you keep . 7 can't re.mc2 cr it. 1 g 01:ay, nou -- l l n
~
Q 30 -- ) l i 30]o A M a, I said that I didn't ceo the comparator until l i l' 3, [ 50 percant was done. Eitht. I l i 12 i. Q Dut you didn't -- you were tecting them as a ;
. i tr.ining millaright withcut kacwing what st=.ndards you 13[ ;
,., wer.2 testing against with your finger; is that right?
- g. , A No. I didn't testify -- it was my finger before II I got the 00mp:1:ntor. I had no way of judj.ng. Befoer I
...)
s . e e war leching for scratchen and flaus, and which there was n ocratches and flaws, I found out, as Mr. Kanancn ' tad mentioned, zE 1 ' g . ,
- too.
.m_ ~
l 0 0't y . On thic first 50 parcent, you weran't l l g looking fer noothnecs. You were looking for scratches and ,
. l l
_. 1 faulta, I tai.e you raid. .
.- ; 1
.] A 703 i Sir.
'e . # 4 %. ge d de wht.t yen :1re loing? )
JJJj
l .I i i 2797 i i dsvi .19 I A l'.prirent?.7 .ro did because that was part of the o '9 d si..tcific3.tio:.1, Lhot you tue this comparator and was brought 3 I.l. out. W "tod it for the rest of them and at the time I 11 l J d was ? :..:.:.tle di.rmay?d hcv vo could have done -- done the o
- ;, first half 'ci. net.t having the comparator. I macn, if I'd 1
kr;;un there w e suppoacd tc be a comprator, I would have 6]
! i
- ' , , aCt.ed for it :un the beginning. !
0!j I did r.ot know, so -- I mean I had no 0! . knowledge 'ist there war oven a comparator there.
'b.
in] ,i g I thought you sc.id as a millwright your [ I i: ) work ma che::<ir.c the s:cothness of seals. And you had ! l
; i I:; .. these ce:.;r.:ntors as a rcillwright before. i u A :E ' 1 used them before, yes, sir.
n:. ,tf I.ni I har2 also feeled the scalo to see if you i
- , ' cculd go without a .comparator too. I mean, you can feel
., c the m.1 and 0011 how rough it is. I mean, if it's
;. 6 ia goin/ to pa;c. Now, I lasan -- i j
1 . 4 ME. SREECR: Excusa me, Mr. Martin. Can you slow l l 0 i dem .j .rt a bit for my cake and the court reportur's saka, f
;1 r ,. but no.st3.y f:r mine.
.i
, ; 'c12 WITNESS: Okay. I -- I said the comparator -- l <
i I usec F,htn nfore, but I also many timos feelod the sals t
; wrih::uu : cc2pr.rntor. ,
;, . S~l MR. COF.NEIi: i G 2:rc h you avir checked a soul for smoothness on J
2798 david 10 1 some other jcb without using a comparator? O 2 , A fec, sir. 3 0 3.nd that's all right?
^
I A Uc11, you just look for roughnesc, but I have 4[ 3 l' never on any Other job had a seal that wasn't polished. I
..; mean, when you get a seal, if you have a flat surface, you don't usa m -- I maan, I thought that was real strange in 7l i
~
2 { the first place. l ! 3h, Eut sec, I'm not a nuclear physicist, so I didn't 9 g" know 'that they needed and what it was going to do. But later when I ceen this card and was told it was supposed to be l l that smoo d , then I -- you knew - just was checking -- it i g l l
.1' 1
., was just running acroca the end and faaling t: hem. l
~ \
,~,
I didn't find none thatmet the card. 4
.i w<
0 Then, as I undarstand it, you're saying in your t g other jobs you don't necessarily need a comparator to check ti" for 3r.cothnest,? It A I -- I said in my other jcbs that they used the g , g ll ' polished zurfa:e, and you Sol for any roughness'Jiatsoever.
+ Eere you start with a roughnesa ao you have to have a
.a, y
l j' comparato to ,.tell the difference in roughness. I mean, if it's succth, you can t:11 it's smooth.
' I But then uher. ycu cuart with a roughness, you haie to have lg.
- i a compara:cr, you kr.cw -- but -- and we was not given one i 4 j until vc hc.e cone chout 50 percontef the rods. j r
l t 2799
.davidll 1 0 And you kne'r this but you didn't do anything i l
2 about f.t? O A 2a, sir. I said I did not know what was -- I 4r didn't know about tha ccmparators. I didn'ticicw what I was I f going cc dc. 13ut when I seen tha comparator -- when I 6 sean the cc:ngsrator .tnd I was told it was supposed to be i 7 so s:coth, them at that point I was -- you know -- it was t l f 3t a ,p r oblam, i 0 i 9 0 ":en you didn't know initially that you needed 1 10 [ a contparater :o do wha:cver you were doing? { ii{ A No, sir. I moan, I had no way -- didn't know l. i 12l exactly wha.t the seal was going to hold, and when -- or 2h nothing elce. 14 j Eur,at the peint I was told the osal was supposed n d is to be this cmooth, thetis the time I started checking, and
;: I cou:.dn't find nono t' sat wenld pass the point where they
;7 !! tol.i cr; they was supposed to.
u O I thought ycc indicated in ene of your
'i
;g h interregator1.2n that y:u had anked for a comparator.
.;c 1 A No e sir. I c2idn't ask for no compr.rator. I l t
y
.. !!3 did net karu there was a comparator thero. !
't
}
G Uoi, what did Kr. Xananen and Mr. 2cria do with ; 3 regrad c: the Oncethness of the ceals? l I
~
, a 20 1, nc hing. I mean, if we -- .lanct -- well, j
- the emcry -- .: didn't pass, rather, and I never ,:cen no
{
2600 david 12 I kind of grit If there wac scratches, they was taken and -- 2 - taken one and a:4 far as that there wasn't no ccratches or l 3i nicks er it. They wu parced. 4 .' Q Dil fou or wara you told to remove this -- whatever p-il 5 d:: foreign lutorial or scratches you say were on the aeals b 5 g yotrsol.d? 7l, 3id you do all that work? . 8 A :?troonally, no, sir. i 3 0 Didycu do any of it? [ f
;0 i A I think I did one, sir. ,
I i 11 0 7.:1did one? 'i
.)
1 12 ,I A 7:ah. There tcas three or four, you know. We d
- ,3 l had thrae nl:.1 wrights there. So I wouldn't necessarily be i
14 ( doing all of c..y kind cf work. I f 3 1 0 chay. Mr. coyle and Mr. Campbell were a !i vorking thera ico, right? U
.7 I A 70s, sir.
e I, Q Oir2 aither them or Mr. Kananen or Mr. Parla -- d
; did tha rest of the --
i gc ll A Mr. Parla ar.d Mr. Kananen didn't do nothing. This l
-i was a uni:n jch, and they're not allowed to do anything like t
l
.n...
, r tat. 1 t
;,3 l I nesa -- maybo y0c don't understand how a union ,
1 i wo d . Ni!.hr:ghts did tha work. . I
,,' Q 1:: t.tay parr.:ted to 1 % at the contrcl rodc? ,!
l i r
-1 2901 1
david 13 A traat do you r.ean "look at" them? I 2 i 0 I metn as quality centrol engineers, do union !
?; h I rules permit them to cor.o over to look at the control rods? l, 4
A I :till don't know what you mean "look at." I l 0 ll l { maan -* i
'i Q ::'m looking at you now. Are they allowed to look 3 7 .
l at the contrel rods ac I'm looking at you? j [ i 0 l A Yeah. Anybody can icok at something. ; Df l t C They could icok at a seal on a control red. i 10 i,' t A 'to?
. The CC people? !
r i
??l l 0 2es. l u liI n Cn ecme occasions, but moct of the time they l ,
gi [ didn't. Taer would just take our word for it. I
!tt !,I i
! / 0 Thruy're allowed to, aren't they? j
?0 i a A I guess they arc. (
lu :
., z --
;~; l j Q Co you didn't have any training on checking for 5 thess seals cut 7:e did check them; is that your testimony?
.t .
! A I:0, sir. ~. anid I had knowledge, and -- they
.10 ,
did not trai.n me, but I had knoaledge cf seals, and once
. . . ,t
,6 I had a .:cmparator, I h.wa heu to use a comparator. But t
- I
. t ,
I said I ilidn't hava a acmparator until -- oh -- about 50 l 4
- = ; <
parcent of ti.c was dona, which seemed to be a littlo O a ctranic. , l q Ccu, did M . Coyla ar.d Mr. Campbell oss a
- jf )
1 2802 , david 14 I comparato ') O , .
~
A Yac, sir. Once it was brought out. I 3h O 7:.d you all three used one? 4, a j 41 A Yas, sir. i i 5h:: 0 So, did you look at a seal without having a l ( 3 ]? ccmptator in your hnnd a.!ter the first 50 percent? I 7; h No, sir. '.fou sea, you take turns, you know - 0 0f li; e one pe: ::on may check all the seals. Ha -- ha'11 go e 9 !! with the cenparator an1 the seals while somebody else is 10 " dcing nomething else. 11 l I:ch job is rotated. 12 l 0 How many seals did you personally check? [2 A .. checked quite a few on it. I mean, the roughness I mean-- you 1.: ll vac so great taat you can feels the thing. i3 g a sty have to go back, but you can feel all four scals and 1
,2 a frcm tima to :1ce go back and check it. I mean, they was J
- ,' pretty :mch di.?ference.
;. :: Dut the ces;arator was thers, and I personally q
; g. .i didn't. T:sct wasn't my job the whole time, you know, doing )
Yi 20 ,! it. d Sut being as they did not need the specifications
;d1 3 .! told to me, I did not %ncu what difference does it make.
I n, But it's just _ho fcct that all these specifications vero : 1
! e:.ther c:xuai er nebcdy's paying any attention to it botheredj 8
.- ma frca 2 a ::; inning. ;
8 l
l I 2803 s 3 9 % you knoU Uhather or not thOy mCOt the 63 rms 3p cpec Lfic,ttion? I A ? don't kncm. They did not meet specifications that 4' i at that time. I don't imagine they've done any work 5
, I. on tham, so I don't imagine they moet them new.
0 You didn'-: answer my question. 7
- naid I don't reckon they've done work on them, gl __
A which I don't think they have. I think that vas the g i I to
,i[
t O Did any scala that you personally incpected meet t { the G3 ~:2c ai!ter you :c:1 pared it to the 63 ras gauge on the c:mparator? O .+ i
.1 ::10, sir. I cheched quite a feu. I finally give il l
.. ; up on it beca 2ne I never find nono that passod. I
'" a 0 ain't naying that nono :ould because half of them was done f
,p li I detta in '.e Mle and thsn I -- after a tire when you get one
- / .
U cftar another that don't match, you accume that the rest of
;9 i l then that are in the saco condition. If they wasn't, a ;
;l vtat dif 20: e:.ca deus it make if possibly teora than half is i 10 p ,,
i
,,] goin J tc b 3 bad any tay.
i j All rignt, now did you report thi.s? ! i O ];. A *123, cir. 5.c I caid, I reported to Mr. Kananen. f
' . . 'c in n (d u ha told me -- aaked me if I had c ca".ibrated O :nd ? 11nymr. :n to'.d irt- to icek at thon.
Two Co , -i 010g19, ,
;! I J Gacch i i) [ 2804 .
i fnlo ?j
,L G Leu did you :oport after that to anybody that I\','i david h ;
33 l nene of. :hace scala that you looked at waro meeting ;
} l 2 3peciiicabioto?- ,
d] A uc, air. I reported to Scott Guain, and at I J thc-; print .!r --- my foroman corae up to un Scott Swain told f i us tc i:a quist about the problema at the jcb. I assume I I
' }
/ ho's h2d rene relation with it, I do not knott. !!e aaid ,
nomatody Crom RCI r.old him. I do not know ha'r the chain ' t
' of xm.r.. tad ucnt, who ' cid who, but ho did montion scmething ,
I
- 0 . abo'It Scott Swain tatlkad to comebody from RCI, and that i i
' i 11 l 'sa vea nolu to bo quiet. ;
, '). %nd you made this complaint to Mr. Fowce just
() As-
;a sen 1 <rn h before yon left the job. Isn't that right? i l,
- a. 7. mado the report -- before we got to the I ccmp rt. tor, I was 7.c 1f.ng ovarybcdy, including Mr. Fowee.
4 e Q. '1.5 in yrur toctimony did you only montion that < l i
,- y au rapc2 t:.d this to Mr. Fowoo, and within a uook you worn i la!.d off? l i
T. , T '.'.cn't thiak that's what that anya. I reported , I i
! in to Scott Iwain, and at that timo Mr. Fouco anid that l
mt.9 :d:r f::c.a tho .':RC told him to be quiot. I ncan it
,; - 10 3 ' t '.117. .. .oetr c e n . I did:i't have no probic.a with him. !
I u::1u' v:.'1 nin af ter that. Wo didn't h.ws no problam
,q , .at' :r W m.nd m'; .:c.".f .
V
. .: just Or:L1 ":: R C ; do you me.n '3CI"?
O^ c ,. - (
) ) {lfkon,,.
% alNA[
! I 2805 :
9-2 jwb i , i 7 A -RCI, yes. .I 2f g Did you ever rsport this'to the NIC7 i 3j A Yes.. sir, I did, and there uns an erroneous thing ! I d menticned the other day. I think Mr. Brennar caid that ! i i 5 lI they first learned of my problems thrcugh the paper. I-r ! 60 called Mr. Focte. sc# cr thrso times before -- f 7, S Mister who? I, l 3 A Mr. For 1, from the NRC. L 9; g Foster? i s 20 0 A Yao. Twt er three times befcre he finally called l l me back, and ' 11 l he did call ma back on a wecksnd night !
.g i 12 [ about 10:00 or 11:00 a'cicek. But I had called him firot. ! ;
e i i Q D
*3 .k !
ii I contacted him beforo anything was in the paper. That's l j 14 lO l where I got the phene number was through the reporter. , t - 1 15 :! MR. BREKI!ER: Eccuse me. I havo no prebism with ti 3 M i most of that answer, but I think the part with recpect to ;
- .I i 7j what I might have caid should be atricken, since I happen ;
y , is !j.! to personally knew there's no basis in the racerd isr that, i 10 jj since I never voiced any opinion one way or the other ; { 20 lll about the NRC. l I l 2; 4] THE WITNE35: I was talking about yccr witnecs. h I2 i MR. 3REWER: But I move the cocm2nt cc to what
*i ,
23 -! I might hsve caid ha stricken. 1- S., $ C!E"RuAK JECTUIDIF3R: Yes, npparentl'l it vaan't -- O l2 T 3 E *TI T T.2 c 3S: It wacn't the attorno? but it was ky
I' 9-3 jwb 2806 , 1 the witnesa. He menticnod it in the record, that they l O, 2 found cut nbant it through the paper. I cc.11cd him, you i l 3 knor, sce, before it was in he paper. 3 CHAIRMAN BECEHOEFER: Well, it8 0 in the record j 4 l 5 anyway. Why don't we strike the portion that dealt with ,
' l 5 Mr. Brenno-i i
TEE WIDESS: yeah, I didn't maan Mr. Brenner. , 7 ! l o CHAIRMAN BECICOEFER: Okay. l l
' i LIR. COMi3R : We have no objection to that part j , 3 .
of it being taken out:. l i to j i l t [ 3;' n'I tm. CcNuzit: l
I'n corry, you brought up fir. Foatar's namo. j , 33 a 0 >
33 May I infer that that is an MRC inspector fren Region III? I I A. I don't know who ha is. I just get the ntrr.ber g and name, and I called the number and they said "the NRC," and I achod i:o talk to Mr. Foster. I have no idea who j 3,3 f 5
;7l he 13.
,o 1: MR. BREldER: I will atipulate that fir. James ,
~: i Fouter is an employee of tho tJRC Regional Inspection
' j g f,. ,
I 3 ;; Office in Chicago, Illinoin. i 4 LY !!R. C01RCRs
#. i fj A:.d you scy you called him two or three times !
.~
3 , t
,g q!
bofere he wculd.do anything? ! u m 1- .1 Fe, I didn't say he wouldn' t do cuything. I ! O :
., ; said, beforo I rseeived the call, you kncu. The uitnacs
[O
, ~ 4Mg l
1 9-4 jwb 2807 l 1 unid the othar day that he tried to get aheld of me and 2 1 finally got inold cf me during the weekend, or semething. ; I' 3((.; Well, tant's '. rue, Sut I had called him before.
. I ain't )
n 4 ll maying that he wasn't doing nothing in this meantime, , 9 5 It 'cause I gtsss he wac icching into it, but -- ! i 6 @ I just va.at to get the record clear en this. ! i I c 7' Did you talk to Mr. Fcctor before he reached you on the ! 6i phone? ,
?
0 A Y2s, cir. j i i to , S Yau did tal:t to him -- - 11 I E Yas. !. I
!2 0 What did you ask him to do? :
10 . A I waked him to look into it. ( l V.S S And did you do that -- how many times? A I don't - two or three -- I know it was et least is jI
?1
! two. I don't kncv if I called him a third time or not.
M 'I, 1 n'] 4 All right, ycu had two telephone conversations
;a : with Mr. Poater abcut reals before he finally called you 19 back on the night you rsferred to?
20q A Y uh, I didn't even know he was going to call me 4 . 2; ij back. Us junt called m3 back as _ a courtesy to tell :sa he ! , I i i nl was doing scJmthing. It was en the seals and the control
- I '
f 3 red bladas.
, G 'Jon nade 2 su770ctien on the record ': hat you had 3j te *.alk no h:J2 t;c or Drac timos hefere he uc :1d do anyt' ling..
l
i 9-5 jwb 2808 ; 2 I L F0. .! 2 4 .11
- right, fino. " hat is not what you meant.
I I 3' .L T -10n't haca what time they startad anything. ! 4I I'ni nra if yon'd like to know the NRO recordc would tell 1 i i 3h you whtt tino they startad. j u i d
'5 j g Tou're not suggesting the ICIC was derelict in
'1 j chech!.ng in ::o this matter.
i t i I 3: A Us, si {,
) : G L.l.1 right. c 10j' !?ow tehen did ycu report this -- ycur problems .
I i 1J [ with the ar213, first, to any supervisor?
.l i
- a. In23 we got the comparator, I mentioned it then.
1.2 [ l l l o t ,e u! ! That' then 2 starb2d, you know. Liko I said before, you 11 h kncv, nupcc ud to go thrctgh the chain of ccT%nned. It a f g wasn'* unbil I ncntio202 it to Ecott Swain was the first i ( o ., .eal Te:ctian I got, and all I get then was just to bo 7- quiet.
;c ;; G 2'm corr i? Did you say you want through the ;
e I i
- 3 , chain of crumnd? !
.. i r
2.; h{ a 2 aaid -- e7c.ntually, yeah, I said, but -- no I et . y >; rent vp n:d niked to Scott Swain, but he was standing 4 4 e +
.m .I there, I ;ta': raid., yet- kncv, docan't coen like anybcdy ,
I 3
..- z:.uch c.~.na ca".ts, bu :, you knou, thece seals don't =est the !
4 m .,
. sc.ecidi. +: dens accc:: ding to thic card.
,; P. C:ct, , M r., J'oi n o w a s 7 0 u r h o s a . Right?
) ; ]DF maigt . _
i y ; 4 9-6 jwb 2809 4 1 4 L ~ : a :3, sir. ! k n i ?
?. Jn3 roughly 50 percent of the rods had been
' 'b 1" i.napect96 end that jcb teck about six weeks. So roughly 4 at elm 2ni of three tracka, you kncv chout the comparator, l I
3l Tcw did you cc= plain to anybody at that point? l A. I didWu =c= plain about -- well, in ossence I 3 i;L - l l 74 guess I c:aplained. I wanted to know about the other 50 , 3 percent. Icb uhen I .n.s told that you couldn't use it l I 3! t anyas?, 1: 9iis't mahs any difference. You vaan't supposed 29 to feal r:. As far as looking, you couldn't toll nothing i; by lookinJ. So the 50 p.sreen: wouldn't Inko any differecca. Y : . 12 I But in 2 x.,Lnony teday, you was supposed to feel, so it ! I ! l 13 would us.ko . Sifferenec. C. Cr2 you say phon you first reported this to any
- D[ nep arviacr':' 1 e
ja bd 1 ~ tan I f'.rst seen the cesparntor. Tu p 0 .311 right, P.!at vcc when tha Jcb was about 50 l
., i
-y pcreant 6. 22?
i 1
- . L hs.
- !. v r.o !i .
0 .Til right, n m , who did you report it to? f L I :startsd out telling the GC. . s C. *iO 2 didn't tr.12 to Mr. Fettee about it? t L ' fall, th2 first timo I scan it I mentioned it l i
- - ^o hin, yi:.a rir.
.;; Q. 213 ycu talk to tho 00 people first? i (s ,
s
o l 1 9-7 jub ,; 2810 I I i < E Uhey was star ding there. I mean, I didn't jump, i /m . 2[u . un ' .tctnd t'.c t plant - it was a big plant. I did not Pnow j (- i.
; :l.: uhen ha we:s , Got tha QC person standing there. I asked !
1 1
-r ij him p. bout t.
l 3jn ; ':t other wcrds, mera or less centemporaneously
. i v ;
Jll i Vit2 ireur caing tha cemparator, you ccmp.1.cined to the ; i e r,t.po.: nac : -- I wtan to the QC man? f 1 i 3 .i A. *9, sir, l' , d i
!? . C. Sn:1 who uns tho QC man? .
t 1" [ i tc it Mr. IG.nanen, or Mr. Parla? ' i 11 j .; .t was Mr. ':ananen.
- He's the one told me about .
how i:he c.t ,ibratcd fin <"er. fIej: - ('; f. f. ' r5 that was abcut when the job was 50 percent t/ a j
.,; . KT. i pl.3 ".'A
'l
.; L pprcximately, yes.
.1 t'
G cv who elce did you report it to? A. cil, I ::aported it to Fowee -- apparently ; i 1 everybcdy 'nnw it. I uean, why wculd I report it to ;
, .scashed" ne's standinu thero and done knoue about it? l i .
Cj 0 fell, now, didn't Mr. Fcuee knct about it baforo, o
- - or not? ?
l ! 2." h :efere when? ; r i
,3 P. hro yeu, in ycur testimeny in the answer to Out ;tir. 5 ' vhen ycu ray that within a weth of when ycu
( 1 . LJ tmra .a id 92 wac r,htn ycu brought the ma-ter to the [W r.g T
. g.
l
- j. i 9 8 jwb 2811 i
)
t
! e.ht.cntion d? the superriscr, and that's when you said you
.4 j
,j : $ g told Mr . F ". vie. '
E o 3. Jc , the uupervicor that that was referring to
.i 4It. wasn't Mr. Itv::e, it was Scott Swain. Mr. Sowes went i 3L hafora the1.
3 l- C. Jr. you hevo a copy of tha testimony in front of 1 , ,
- 7. you? f 3: ?. . :?c, I don't.
I
'i 0 Uculd counnel give you your copy of your it i tecthrony?
i i
- o r .
i !' .'Cauncel hanling testicony to witness.) l 1 1
!! o, .
To you want c.o change your anzwer to Question 347 ii Jrnse. ) R. ]! l
. ' II m, BRENNER: Mr. Chairman, I'm kind of d
;T acnfused by this line of questioning. The time gap that
; all deca postionc were going to was the gc.? between f i i the tina P.T. Martin usy have first reported it and left j i..
i
.; the jot *:ite. And answer 34, the one chat he'c talking i
, ahcut, is 2.ct that gap at all. It's the gap ht6.een the
- i DL a tima Mr. Enute allogndly said "be quiet about the problems D'
; ut the plan 4" so vo'r3 mi::ing up apples and oranges, here.
p, PT.. CON:In: That is not a cor ect ra ding of ; i 1
- the newer to cucccien 34. i
,. iii: ivT'E:SS : And in 33, it saya "a" supervisor.
;; icson't sr.y my dir20t 'cupervisor. The 3upar713cr I ,
- a. w M'98qrq{
l I 9-9 jwh 2010 i 1 was talking about was Scott Swain, who was supposed to be O , doing cenething c.bcut this reactor. That's the i i i i 2 uupervicor I was talking about. I was not -- did not ! 4 ,. apecify ny " direct supcrvisor." I caid "s* :;uperviscr. ! l 5 , BY MR. CONNER: I 3l ~ G .:ir. Martin, read 33. "Did you bring this matter 7 . to the autantion of tha supervisor? "Ancuer: "7es, I did." ! a 1 B "What ware ycu told?" ! i 3 ! q "Tha ne::t any, my fereman, Mr. ?cwso, got the a ? l 70 1 crew together and told us to be quiot." Within a week, . ji J 11 l- ue entira crew was laid off. i i i 12 A Okay. l 12 s @ New your answer suggesto that you caid nothing 14 about this until rcughly five or si:: wacks into - L 15 E No, sir. No, sir. l3[ G Ncv I ached 'icu did you uant to changa your i 17 : tactimony te reficct Mr. Suain. It i 1 A Well, it's in the record now, but this dccument j
- a!
10 0 hero is still right. It says: Did you bring it to the 4 is f.0 y attention of the cupervicer? The superviner I
;j l
;; ,, brought it to the attention of van Scott Sucin. At that 1
I r !!o timo, my foreman, '.thich %scw about it bcfore, told me to i ) !' r. be quiet ahcet it. I i
" r 1 2 See, the facr that he told to ta Se quiet about i
;g it was in telling Ccett Juain, which was the prob 1cm. It l f?
~}ai i
I i. 9-10 jwb 2813 I wasn't the i.'s.ct of telling him. He wasn't upset if I told h, l y t 2{ him about it. f 3 g .U.1 right, now, you talked to Mr. Swain about 4l this, then, reaghly after -- just after you talked to i 5 Mr. Kananon? Is thc.t uhat you're saying? 6j A Mo, sir. i i 7' G sew long after you talked to Mr. Kancnen did you I Ob talk to Mr. Suain? i 9 l- A Is was a couple of waeka, whatever. 'fou know, d r iC j' when I seen him. He isn't there all the time. i f : li ! O Did you recall that yesterday we talked about the i i : 1 12f duration of this jcb which went from July 26th to li 12 September Gnh when l'ou left, in that pariod7 That is J. !t fad rcughly a six-week pericd. Wenld you agres? !
.i !
15 I A Yes.
'I 1 50 parcent of the jcb would have bcon done in j P !l G i
- i '
;7 " roughly 3 noka, and you talked to Mr. Kansnen at the end ;
M1 l of about 3 weaks. Then you talked to Mr. Swain, how much i l D< I longer afts: that? 2c ; A Nell, actually 50 percent of the jeb uouldn't l o - i ,
.1' ;
.5 have been done,.becauco the recrating, and the bringing bcek
- . ] i out -- then I consider the job done is when they'rs acwn r! in the tuh n, ani. we wcat through 'em, you kne 7, it'd bo very hard te occt:: mire how auch wac den % It ucc in the 25 crate: cr in the hc.~.ec 4.t that time. I maan, li%c I 9-
-. L. - . _
? %j,
D, b 9611 jwb ; 2814 I mentioned bef:re, T did not keep accurata record's of all a (~)
'/
h 2lle this because I did not think at the time it uns going to s J maka any diffference. n
#' g XIat I'm trying to say is, I don't knew how far 3 along, bccatc2 of what was in the crate, what was tahon .
5j i bnek out of the cr2te, and what was in the hole. ; 7[ n Ol:ay, did ycu ccmplain, or call, or notify any r a other supernicor in ac.i' tion to Mr. Kananen, LIr. Si, rain, f 9 and Mr. I'on e, of the scal problem that you describe? . M a. Well, Parla. il I O Tec also told Parla? , O A. Yes. ;,
- 2 0 Q. Iu that at z.bcut the same time you told (vO .,
n . R Mr. Kananen? l 2 a. I really don't h cw which I told rirat, because
'I
, whicnever er e was -- il Mr. Kananen was working that day, '
~7 I told hira first; but I mentionad numerous times, becauso n you *:ncw -- ace, I did not know what difference it raade,
- 0 but I vs.c told it was supposed to be a certain cmoochness, ;
20 < and it unsa't, and I wanted to bring it to everybcdy's l 2: attentien that votid licton.
.2 rhat'3 the re; con I asked Mr. Sunin. I told
.- him,, it d:n't cars ".ika anyhedy cice ::arca.
,o ,' O. Ohny, nes./ le: c 1coh at you an war 4:. Questien 34. v) Since no acre riew Octab!.it'hed Siis apclim tc -- atrika Pogg gM,W
i
- l l
C-12 $wb l 2815 i 4
' ! what I inut said. !
., l
~ i. Y :sts day I a:)kad you if your conversations with l
,I .
l 4 Mr. 7ene referred ::o in the answer to Question 34 related 1
- t t
)
to the particles, and I thought you said it did, that ' ;
'i ,
I ! M
~
convarsatiot.? l ,
. I j
0 ' 1 I said it ecu.9d, because I did bring up l 1 l 7 quoctionn, J.t's like ~ told ycu at the beginning. I do ; 3 U ' not knov this is the colo reason about the seals, because S! I had Icenticrcd othar Si.ogo about the banding in the rods, ' I
?O 'l and the particles, and " mentioned stuff all along. Maybe .
. 6
'.*1 it was a cattlation of all these, that scaabedy finally I t
1 ! Ej told !&, Fotee to tell ts to be quiet. I do not kno'w vhat O " === in die mite air- I'= === = =taa ro=e==- i I4 ;j G Lay, nov youberday you indicated -- you 15 stated cat?.ccrically that It. Powee said "be quiet about l a i I 15 the probicsc at ths plant." You said that stuck out in i
.) :
c' " ' your mi:0. } i
,e . A re s, sir. l
.'O / G I: that still your testimeny?
20 .) A. Ycs, cir. , 2 ?J G Icn't it fact a that what 11r. Fo:ces t:1d 'you ; l c; l 13 mor3 alrrg tha Ides of "ycu shouldn't 50 talking about
.ia , things you der.: understand?
1.1 , 1 Jc, sir. 2 3 r s =, m e u t 2 noe riyht? i un.h5Hfy
1 l l
.il 1 i 9-13 jub 2816 I A I'n positivo, sir.
O 2 N3. CCNNE3: 'Phenk you. No furth*,r quectione. l l l 3 C IN.: FEN TIE 230EFER: I guosa Mr. Heile would I l 4 ba no::t.
.t !
3
.9 l 1rl !!n. EIL3: ;
4 3, O' E;. Martin, there was some tcatir.cny in the caca 7 a' cort tha a'aprcximate roughnecs of the conla arca, and , semcone urnihr.rc along the lino mentioned the.t it may ll
? '! apprc::!nnte 20 roughne ss of the chrcrao finich on the i
M ll1reicrcphona I
?? ' i rald ycu any thct's an accurato characterization ,. ,
') i i ^. l cf the otr.11 that you lacpect:d?
l
, I O O, P th, air. j U 't !
1 j n V.anid ycu hav.2 the ability to characteriae it D .lP in a dif f. x 3n': fashice. than might have been enccplified for
*J] ut, cr :'ott:.J you give c.3 an er:cmplo cf how rough they wor 3? ,
1
- ' ,' t. U ), cir. It's like this tir.o, it'a liko I said i
1 ; I
- i hofero, yeu can feel ~: neb =, you knew, for a chc t period of ,
I 13 time, bal u her about a year, I meen I cannot any, you l M] know, thei. Mais feels liko that did. I'd have no way of l , f !
*. Inc, wing. :. n3an, I thi3k they got the ecmperator; why )
1 y t ccn't t'w ' 3r'.ng 17, cut and chow ycu vhat it's cuppesca to i f 001 13..JC' I s O. ::1 .: fr.in to say, thcugh, ':hnt -- lot me ash - y:n : :1 " mt i': u?! re'.:gh:)r than '.ha chromo fini.sh on d4Ot yg
i I 9-14 jwb 2817 7 the :r.icropL Li s? f D Q .,
~
16 '!r:13,
. yeah. I can renember thnt was quite a l~
3[e bit ::u:Jhar ca.:n that. I moan, you could nea lines. You
'[;
cou:.d run y:.t.: fingar un and down it, and your fingernail
~. i a[ w:uid cl.! & back end ferth to where the gril".o that the !
hl f 13thG 131 di r. l l I 7y @ C 't37 7 thankU. s j C'IAII.MAH at 3:3OI72R: Dr. Pankhaucor? l 4 ; J] Uf DE. FAi4KIDUSEns l N G !.: .11rtin, t.ihat wara your -- what were the l ' l l j crigdra1 ;.r.:1rvaticne that you were given rage.rding the l 1 3
"l -
r eals v3c 7 T .: cre;t cas assigned to inepact those control : I
.' reda? !
'f t<17 war: no mention of roughness.
- a. . Ths'r said,
." 1:oh der t'.c333 and acrc.hches, period.
i e at D2nto and scratchss. And did you i?ind any ' I i l denta at:st n:ratchem it: Shoea uealo that you incpectod? , 1 l
.:' 11. *!n, s;ir. l
' t- i G. D!A ycu find anything that you w:uld charactaris:e l l
. i i N : tu "feelirn intoric1" en these neala?
I
?; 1. T! ) , not foreign material. It una not buffed or ;
i
.; ;olichel. n.: '?ar cc f;rsign mctorials. !? t'ntra van t 2. cts.ir g c: :::.tre - there was ncthing noeded to bo taken 7,. - Off * .ed im 6cw:c cnd scratches.
- 1. J, r: ahe con:r rn cf yccr ?uperi/ ors wcn mora with
4 I' i 2819 i 9-15 jwb : . i ;' - de:1ta and c:aatchs than without mention to L'oraign 2[ matorials? 'ss that the best of your reco17.,3ction? l 1
, I
~,; A :: ., , , air. I scan, obviously if dwre uns ,
f l
5 feraign. mi.1 L:!isla, wa 17o'21d take them off, but wc did not f
j i' poll.sh thw or buff them to get them off.
** 4 2 I 3 3 7 La ycu ovor o':zorve any of your supervirors i 3 l, O.
il
' ;1! in@cct:ing Liocc 383137
.i. t 3; E :. hay c.pparantly looked at them, espacially if U, !
3y ,. we had a rAc! Cam, and tm'd go get them, and they would , B) cc:aa ar.d u ch at thut, too. That was their job. But if
? ' 'l thay pasn'ei, yach, there van no reason fcr them to coma ;
- I
?2 ! oner therug ud coun11y they didn't. l I
. i.
t=2 "sa ener e>e e=r i======a=*= to : "cs= *ae O " 1 c- . J l casothne.nl c? those..:ca33, other than tho fingerti? ! a . 2 ; 2. '-h 2y diar.'t ut a their fingers. It tras lika j i 1
. tir. I:enannt. 3 aid, yct2 3r..:w, uhon we were tal!cing about
'; ~ cr.li~m.to.i f 1.tysrs. Thc.y figura the pocpla don't got -
caliieat:C :?ingc.:a. :
- s 0 2:n. Thy -;uct looked at them? e 1
- '.'. ?.. or, cir.
}
Q. 't'.d they have -- wculd they use ecmparators at
. t1:at hinci t' n cpening of the timo during uhich the ,
- fir.w ach : 23c ucre . .'.nspacted.
p :.a D. ic , 31 . 0 awt:mw - evenifitunaeuthesc: acc.a at
-d[dgyr
9-16 jwb 2019 t y that tima. I 17.ow it traun't out where we was doing the ,
>~ . ..
cnocx:.ng Y: Al,.e . ;
- o that it's c.y understanding that, aa far as !
3 h. 0 i I-n
;. you know, end as far as yeu obcarved, ::cughly 50 percent !
. n !
' of the control reds, that would be on the crScr of 70 or !
l
> so, ware 30-called "Annpoeted" without the use of the i 1
-. 1
! compa:a':c.:
y _ 0 p! ! A. Jaah withcut visual, er feeling ih sither one, I d, . . 1
?' yes, air.
I
'0 :;
9 .it the ti.nt that you began to use the ,
.u ,
h, h comperate::, !as any er01: nation made as to tyhy it hadn't ; cnd Jiis '2 < been uced narlier? i
#9 ; ,
Qar10foin i u ll 4
- te
.%J ,' l
'l .
", ti !
1 t 1 l 3 i 7
.c ,
i N=. l }
. I 4
I
%nulf.
l l 1
i iG010 nel 2020 3 A 10 , z iat . I wau wondoring, but nebody had any o' 2 i annuars.. t.nd 1:n when I was told you was supposed to look 3 at i.t, you kn u, I fienrad it didn't make any difference,
- i. but I know if it was supposed to be such a roughneca that I
5 you can't :el:., oopecie.lly like you brought up beform, when
-3 it'a a diffr:e:nt type of natorial, you can't tell by looking I
7 at it hou ro :r h come.:1.it.g is. You've got to feel it. 3 Q D a ': neither Mr. ?l.ananen nor Mr. Parla gava any 3 l indios. tion o2 'ahy rourbly half of those seals had boon I
'i0 incpectud uit' cut the use of this particular devico?
11 A Ib, air. 12 l 0 A s tl a ti:Lc that you became concerned about the i O :s l a==:ier or ex' "cr:< 'aa' 'he ====e==*urer a=a sore r=ee'
;4 (t or 2h icant the quality of the condition of thoue seals, n; h you repentadly enprosced your concern to a number of I.
I 5,3 li! dif forer.t 3tst r*rico:.y po connel. That is my undorstanding. ilh gj !c ' tab corract? A Yes:, sir, I'd tell anybody that would licton. 73 [ O n) l; Q 216 you get any kind of -- did you receive l> e g3j any a::prerui:n of concern by any of those pornonnel? A M, sir, I didn't. You know, it'a liko I said 7 u ' fro; the Legi:xing, 3on kucu, I got nothing. It -- you 2.; kno t, o g J .dn 't knou c:cactly heu it was being used, y, bat wt.riy 12:rd b ba c.mccrned, which upsat 20. Why
.. nob;dy ' w ,c prnsd, if 6cy htd a opoeifiaanica, 'ihy vaan 't !
.. a
l l l 1 ar2 2021
- they fclle. wing them?
i [ k n i; Q c.n3. 1.t was a short amount of time after you , 1 i i 1 3? ,
'::o;an :: *fidc 1: 7 express your views that you laarned that ,
1
, l 4l " yorr entire c.:cw was going to ba,laii off?
p l
; l 1
r
)
g; A "1t, right after I contacted -- well, I didn't i [ t 3' contact hs. uls etandia3 there, he 'was up in the aroa. AFtsr { . 1 yj I told 3 cort .hain, and my forenan said'that ho centacted, l I, t s k you "tnow, tie contractor, and the contractor told him to tell l ; J: a 9 I,,! us to bu q:w - l go( 0 Ec :fou vera bid to be quiet about the probleme !
! I g; y at the pl.2/.i., and ycu continued to be concerned.
f Ware there l 1 I gg.[ any excusou gi. von as to why your crow was laid off? f n I;
'G 1", A Fc, sir. l U ; I g4 l{ Q tc you have any knowledge of a separate crew f r I g ,' tha i;t might 1... m takan you:: place after that?
l, o . A Tenh. There was a craw that took our place !. l , u
. a origina.~.17 Uhst thay did was -- >
e'
., 4 L,. [l
? P. . 3RENICR: 3xcuco me, you have to move your !
l . Le. ?, hand. l j' '
, 'UI: i n T !ri:S 3 :
. es , there was another craw that l
~ D. !
t l g,,l rop 1.ccede.o. Iut origina:.ly what they did was cican the ;
. 1 n
con ro1 ::::*1. 1 1 q' l 5:2 EPZEEn2 Excuse me. I'm corry. I didn't 3 , l
-.s , , . geh thtt c.u r. . Can th3 ropertar repeat it?
L race:i ual road ac requ0stad.)
.0 84
f' i. cr.::3 ' 2322 1 '1 33. 75 K E*:EER: o
?. - 2 9:s there ar pressions of dissaciefaction to you 3 i: . CG2 vi L the qutlit:f of work that your crr.w was doing?
ll A at about the quality of work, ne, sir. l 3' O lc the only c:prescien of dissatisfaction that
.? N yca ara r.u 2; e of relat ad. to the e::pression of concern P
i 7l i C out .^ 9 ; 4t.'.ity of n.s':erir.ls that th<t picnt was being 0 cercrrectel rith? 3 L .' 2 :; , sir.
;o .A. ?ARTAU31:.R: No further questionn.
l; JD.IRI@d? BEC:MOE"ER: Mr. 3rcnner. 12, 2 tin. 3EEN1LR: 1
) m G r. Ihrtin, >?o you have any personal knowledge f
. .,, : ! cc Lw pre s: nca of grit on this portion of the bottc:t of a,
.u.. 3, ten : antral red th.Ita vou were inspccting for cecothness?
n3 a ::i, sir, I never sean no grit. i
.1
.J i 0 3:. you cr other members of your crew use emery
. ,:)-
t: r zccc r:y =atter 1rcn that portion? i I g ;; : A .icracchen, ycti know, gouges in the se11 itself. l
;:,9 T:1cy va; u st og Jc'd rtrrt with a file and filed on it, and
- t. taan roi u si sma:y ,
f
. 0 11 right. {
,4
,. 2ct di2tati; faction with the caccthness of i i
t,w:: del rc thi.: . sfc.:a or aft:nr the filir.g :rocedures? I
. '1, w fi'.iag proccdurce didn't havo nothing P00R D MI m l !
l
nr4 2823 L I tc do with :.;c becarce tae scal was smoother after we got
. l a
2[ i done with ~ :#r:.m what Share. was before, you cculd fuel Oi w h t :. . w a.; muually sncother. You know, a person could l 4' physically rli:a them thiste a lot better than whe.t's just t 5' scing :o enu c:?f a grir. der, I mean the blades. i 3! O nr. hartin, s, hat I's trying to find out is when 7 ye's we: o 4: uauticfied with the roughneos, was this before 9; or aftur ti.o i'Irther picccdures employed at the facility g- te sm::ne.'1 it ;ut? 2C A I'21: further ;rocedurcs? tg C P>..( ycu jus t ':cstify that there t.as seme filing 11 dcca? 13 ., a ' mh . That was on individual rods where they i g wu a 2cranc.: or got:ge. 2 had nothing to do with the 3 Oc !!gi'11t!S J . y3 , O ::! there wac any removal of grit by crery, it i p.*. i e sutt:cq:.c. at to your departuro? 3- jrat teo'c 3g 7 Ifu, sir. Pha possibility is there was grit i l gg ; te::3.a ef 6, b 2 ; if t: horn 20 grit, ycu know, I don't think Z
;- c tl. ::y 'd b2 r.n .ag enz.: 7 to take it off. I mae.n, tho acetone l
,7 sclu:ian : :. . linnolve j :st abcut anything besides metal, g , ar d yen j : .h t ripe it of f .
l
# t
.s
- }
. Jrn:1 yor: tsc:imony, it'a the metal itself that l tar J rubb'd .us ; any Jrit on the sr.r:'aco of taa metal?
g .. *r.:'c righr., cir. u
.au.gg c
- . -. .=. . . . .-
t ll nrS i, 2824
'l Q Mr. I:ananen tcntified that he and the other QC r i i
2 ', r>x?lcyta af .0I actaclly performed that inspcetion for i 3U ' amcothras3 L thoua reait. Do you cgree with that? l 4; A 1 , sir. 5 2 Y y:n knew 12 the work you vero performing in 1 0' ..c:kint, tu arf touchintr ..hese seals was considered an a
'P i in <pe:: tion fer purposes ol.' entry into DCI's records?
r l C, a ': 1 thy the:t had all the stuff wrote down, and I I They said E W:y dide.' c.ntion nothing about the filing. 5 IC i sc'.11.n.ing cc ut emory, I think, in a couple of them. i 11l C Co you have :t . Maura's testimony? I'll ask 1 51
*2 .l yc.:.r :cunsel i e give it !:o you. ,
l, 13]a U.)ccument han.hd to the witness.) 14 ij X".. SRENNER: Off the record. {g] (?4iccussion o.'f the record.) d 16 .' M' 1R. BPINMS.1:
'l 12. !:artin, wi.11 you please turn to attachment B.
;y L Q 1
is 11 A Yon, sir.
'i 3 p: E!L KOSIK: Did you say 3 or D?
- 1
,;o . !!L BRENNER: B as in boy.
h
.f i
.u, t ,]'
E*.' !!R. BPJ:NNZ3: , 1
~
n i Q D..' you evsr fill c'It a form like thi.s over the ! i i 3 c: aron of ye w c.:mi11ng the matal curfaces that we aro
- u. .
d ' a cr.sain g.' s _a
'. .h 13, sir. Ses, we would do t r.aintunance and i
% g/ l
i i arS I, I 2825 > t l 1l tell ther, c
' hey would write it down, sir.
O J i a xe you obser m theimung entries onto ws i - 31 Ier:a aith r 2 ps:t ?.o the roughness and smoetbness of the t 4I i en.l.s , .erc i: clar~ i. ". item 57 : l 5l 3 . A u s , 131r., Dr. 1.ifferent occasions . I didn't stand t Gi over than a3 I was doing all of them, but I have seen it
',i 7! befera uni scan then fill it out. -
I ' O b.c rould give. them the result of your observation 3 Pl ! i 3 l' and they ac:1. 3 imediately write it down en a forn like this; to j ' is t: hat wha.: 7:2 are testifying? i t; p n :l crs , cir. Like I said, I've seen them fill it out, p 5 *>
*=tt
! but I did nos go thrcIgh '.he files and see what they was it g writing d'avn e .:ir.
l. y !! O . mdercta.2d that, and I understand that you 3; have cc en thu fill it at:t. Faut I am trying to find out i a is si n respe:t to the cr.1: ries that they mado for item 6,
'l 3.,
~ < , was thi.: h tac inmedia.:s timefrc=e of your reporting on 0
73 your etce m . G ns of thaca items? 4 39.)d A : t vn? mbcut the came time, but according to this } g d it aaya, inuger. scale for nicks and scratches. It don't l
.a say ncM:ing about roughne c, so, you kncu, maybe I wasn't j
. - cue:c.3cd t i- --
E) ,cncer'.ed 0.bcut it. But then :ihv did we hava
- l i
l 7 the car.1 :n 1 u.id it w.c supposed to bn seconhc I,
.k .
C ft ecc thu :s.ccrd will reflect what the form
,, S Of,J ' 1 i 'r.32N : 'd 7 g3 S.2d n11. .
.. a km ed
cr7 2026 1 Could yott tur* to attachmont F of Mr. Maura's 2 testimony? .:e you have it? 3* A It that it there? 4 Q 2.. F. 5 This is a cut-away dusign drawing, Mr. Martin. G 4 Can you tell from looking at it uhe.t it represents? 7 A lieh, that wenia be the control red and the 3 control red ':ube. O Q C:sn you recognir.e the velocity limiter in that 10 drawing? It Oc you knew v' rat a velocity limi'.cr is? In A 30, sir. p Q If you don't, I will use another term. 1.1 A I au not f amiliar with the tar:n. 15 0 ':an you ident.fy the portion of the bottem of Sc j thu control red that ycu c::a:cin:d for nicks and cuts and gy roughnece in talu drawing? l gn , A Net Teally, sir. I ceuld make a -- you %now, I i.
;g Il cott1d taka a geena, but I don't kncw if your picture is 1
20 j' bad, or what, but I would cay it would be in here, h
.u. . l, Buu I don't ':n:w if tha'e in right, because the way the d !
n .!j picture i: - II g ,; I Q 't . Acrtin, I'm chouing you : largar,
;ther ,
f
.. 4 fanciar 9. casino of taa eratrol red driva mechar.icm.
- I have l
i w i- caly cea ca;y, and .: r2c a ' '.: plan tn - ': it nu anhibit. hMuutt}kr
l 1 I cr8 2027 I l 1 I'd lika you to keep att.uhment F and look at thiu one 1 3 and see if yc 2 can identify the scrtion of the control rod , 1 4 S the t you have c:cemined. l 4 Th!s is wich respect to the smoothnosa of the l l 5 seals and any aicha or etis on the seals. l l G! /t'itness e:tamiaing document.) 7 A L:-.te I said, I would imagine it's there, but 8 that's nov. recally -- the other way. If that's it. I don't 9 even know if that's h. 1 it .l
- Q You're not haring any trcuble orienting yourself l' ,
11[ to the drawing, are you? You understand that in real life, ! I 13 I it's a spherc, and what vc are looking at here is a cut-tway? ,
! I t3 I A Ycsh, I took machanical drawing, I knew what i
'}.
14 you'ra talki.n; abcut, but tte picture, I just can't --
- g. O '.!o2're way ahead of na, cecause it took my b
.:0 . j witness five ::d.nutes to e:cplain that to me.
t
! .' ra get a f alt pan here, and I've got another >
t i
!4 3 (!' copy comev/rera of attachmant F, and I'd like you to darken s
g, 1 f,in completC y .all the areas that you believa you felt for G O g. rot.ghncas and .ncothn2ca and nicks and cuts and so Orth. d \ Uc11, I caa't do that becausa I'm net cure that's 3 :i A !
. evc n the placa. I we sid ass :ns that's it, bct I do not know. i 3
I
.g
'I cc.n .3ho/ 7c;I en the ccntrol red, br.t I cannct tell frcm !
i i
. , . ! the oictura. 12: corrf, cir. i I
,3 e ; G .H1 right. Cro m ment.
t , h&:3. y
ar. 9
- i. 2828 2 'Enusc.)
Ig%
# 2 Forget
.e t ' a try i c this way , Mr . Martin .
3l abcut the p: ct.are. i 4 .' n loo %iag au an actual control rod, the portion i 5, tht.t you <tzeld hate exatined with your fir.ger and visually, 3 in would b2 tromid the .:ntire circumference of a circle; is 7 that corre .:., a spharc? i 3 L 't would h Ja to bo, if it's going to hold anything, i 9 0 h.11 right. ':ou in terms while ycu waro facing to the betten .;f the contrcl red, in terms of linear distance u I up and deun along the vartical n: tis of that portion, about la[ how long n distance would you run your hand cvor in order i.: mj to mako thi: check for roughness? 3.., , A hell, %c re.:.1 in only about that big (indicating), 1 g lj, and ycu 12s; run your fin'Jer around it. i o 26 Q rcil, could you dancribe for the reportar about 1 how big? l t . l I
.ns a I ".c a ' t :x v . l I:
a l l
.s 1 Q Uca :nve to sn r it. i
.g A I Jaa trying to visualizo, trying to remtsber and give 4 "et. 1 don't kno'.o, et yba four er five inche.s acrocc. , l 1
.. s.
- r 22:.l.y c:
c:n wher knewed tha - liho I'd ny befcre, i t
- x. .-
4 m s ,. i. .. g: 3 ,s :hia st':ff ras going to be impcrtant, l t
'I :cok .c arn .no..ito and brcught them in to you.
'_/ {
.. :Inu t.' n. ..!id nytedy at 2CI or any place elca
- .n p r- ti::: scrt:.cn or the 5 :tc'a of that k
; ;. : : vc- ;: ..;..r
?000 00ll5lI,
l e ar10 2829 9 II> ccatrol red 4.ct would make the back seat and form the seal? i' 2I A F.3hcdf told 3:e uhere it was supposed to be. They i 3f just told te to compere it: and said that thic seal here is l-f. 4 '-, supposa d uc :m so smooth and it wasn't. I don't know where Te I it's scing to be used er nothing else. I don't awn know i 6 !- wh,3ther & :.'r tho' top or :)ottom, I don't know which way to put 0 7l 16 in, bu : 3 unew that Sul is not as smooth as that 8, comparato.: 3:.id it was suppocod to be. i G, O T.: it possiblo, then, if you had been running I
;0 f yo sr hced .:n:1 felt thic from your observation on an area t
It of ' h* ho cte ..t of that control rod much larger than the
;3 ,' pa.:ticalcr c.:ca that wouS.d form the ceal with the back seat?
- s l; A m, sir. -
l
!4 Q Nil, according to what you told ina, you don't w( know whap. gt:ticular a::c2 foras the seal of the back seat.
- 6 - A I uncu the flat surface is your seal, and the i
t; ; whale flat ew; face, you tra only using eno part of it as 3 h,e yc i.'.: cena, wh:..:h ic pocsible, tho wholo thing acrcco it wa.3 6
}
;g ' still rough, to it don't matter what point you are
;,c ccing the cen: and what part is just hanging over and neu li e
-4 i. doinc net'r!n" The whola thing wac rough. ;
nj Q Io :.t ;canible than the w y it's accigned is that u n' it has such a angic on .t that only the bcttom portion of
.. g" '-h n :n;- 2 M r.nlli Jc:nr..; che cea17 g ' -
- ' 3 pecc:.ble . that bottc:a Englo -- deni t kno*7 l P00R REM t
aril 2830 1 whct you're La1xing sbcut. I know what a eeal looka like, 2 ani that wa:s a deal, you know. It was rough. 3 Q M1 right. Nebcdy showed you which particular 1 part to loo:: sc, or hold you that this in the part that
- 5. fornia the u sal; ic tt.at correct?
0 li A % 11, ocmabody nontionod, you know -- I could
}
7 loth at it and tall 3t wrc semo typo of asal, and they
- J dic montien : hat was a acal, and I checked the whole surface.
I I o1' O %d you et ar Leo a velocity limiter in poultion to forming a o<nnt with the tubo back cont? 11 A :Jo, air. 12 0 3: you doci't :ncu exactly which portion would form il t;j the acal, tn n? In that correct? g lf A that'n rf.ght, but of the Durface it could have
'd 75 poccibly bn3.1 a soni, the whole thing was rough. I said P
n; N ~ that .I actc : knou uhut pcrtion of that in used no a seal, c j 3.j but,;/ou %n u , what part was hanging over, but I know that l M l 10 ![ what isn't>uod an a saa2 would decrease the officiency of gg I tho seal, .' ! ycu wn:: just uaing a small portion of this t ( ' area, it wc 21d bo not lat u offcctive than if you were uaing i g,) f , ,n f' thu uhole cras. :: don't know if you were caing the whola I . ~. , , 3 are or not, bab the pare t;hnt I une told was n seal and I g it icokod 1Dr2 a anal to n us.s rough, the uhole area. ; i i I 10 <
'%ug; f
5
- y. ---
, _ _ __m -
l ll 1
; l 2031 >
- i 4 david 1 0 it x you don'u know if this roughness was uniformly avit.1 2 !
o diatriht:t .d . . I, teko 11 3 ...;. ycu hncv is you felt some roughness on many i t
.ls z.r 4 of tbi cos.t.*o2. rede; correct?
i 5 II "
. :: use unife rm o t - on the whola seal. It was l'
I G Ei1 tno er r. ) . It was the uay they was running the lathes 7 vich th s (m :c:ing J.ccion. 2 S O :1:ay. 1 0 A n::l it w an very uniform. I mean, a lathe in
-Q ) rnLforn.
I 1; Q .kn, I ballere fou tastified that when you're U. l 1: ired to . jn , this it: a -)ob to job relation of a particular { l
- s ::i::e na:! 221 niring in 6cne through the union; is that
; k,, car ::1ct?
- el ; 7, Yas. It'c tono through the union or you can i
- si a call - 1:: 2::ody trorkn at a place and you can call and i.
- cak f or to: r.tedy -- yet know -- oh, like if they're
- , 'I familier d th the tior!c, u
.g - Ycu can cal.' the.a and toll them to ccue back to f n
1
., wrk. nnd grnorally it yoa'rs uorking at e, placo and get ,
1
; P !. add M F m d you'ra sti.11 off when the job calls back, I
Qcv- at u :.. y on! than bach cun. t Q Ic chat a union poli::y? l-A I guasc it'3 union policy. 'Ihat ' :1 usually what Tir .r.cm r.can, 2 ne t. a union officin1 oo I don't know
.1! tN.T . polic, bu : I b. V ths.t happe
. _~ . .. -. - --. . - . _ . . _. .
I 2832
!. l duvid2 ;j Q :c yea know Tcu long .stter you luft the job ;
2 eite ' hi's .: .hr vor! crrw van hired? h I 9 Il 3 ':hin c thtt '. ,rna about 20 dayo or comething. I l 4 .d. des' b kna f that't- ri1ht. j1 l J 5 m not uvan pcaitivo. Tho dayn that I laid
. .)
#l g oS'-- that ;r.dt psychec': otub I had, but I havan't done I l
1 a no .iar the.: - ; t
! ., i 2 N'rs talkin7 a. bout something appro::imately two i I l 1 to thr1:.0 ya ka?
gy
!l a I uould iay .7os.
.g 0
- l
'g
. C in 9 hen 7on ':estified that the work war not complete, l
ij I
, ,, p in ranpetu.c t.o quec . ion 34, you were thinking about entire l 2
work or. n in ::01 reda, not the particular tasks that you had l O ,o ' j tr.rm doing 2p until the tirco you left; is that correct? l h bil, th.2t ' t, right; you know, I assumed -- you
,o ,
.l kaow -- tha: it we.c going to try to get thoca particles n>
l _ j out '- ycit now - .ind that's what I uso doing be"oro is t
' clenniny. I think it 1.culd do a more thorough cleaning i i
4 i E semdou ta pt thoca materinin out of there.
- r 0 3:6 no other crau una working for approximately
;G j f.
1 tr.m to tic.as weeks after you left; in that correct? E! a is I 'JUoDO. I -- O I.a other vc;;Sa, wa're not talking about continuoua : !
'or.t wher a yrt lah c.nd than throughout the whole period or ,
c' !. O xr. d.it.Sc !. 7 thar nIber other people vero brenght in? , ; (( k
L l, q 2033 l david 2 IL L ' 311, sir, I truly believe that that's the i n U .,
;j rs.ucon I w u la.~.d off, and see a contractor is not dumb i i
d 3q et.ough tu bev -- I mean, they know they can got introublo [ l 4 I 13 thuy jurc- jec rid of one crew and hire another one. j g l J c Sher 3's cioing to be a time lapne., and I assume
,' t'.in 2 n u.m :ha time lapso van.
b h 7 j,! ," "cM , what point were you in the job at the 3 ti.no your esc.> left? Wrcr the control rods layina about
- t. l.
3h and ,aro yc a in the middle of working on t.%un or were they
* 'l il Nl i plac2d bat.1. rionn in the tubes?
' lh
'. 1 a h y n s in uha tube. l L '. ~
n r, 21dn't you tastify earlier that you would consider ll II r>=r $<=>"'>= e*=" "u **e ===*r=1 r=a= "e=> st cea t= ta- ! lO i:
'a,
- 1. , y t. 2br 1 1
- r '
?
A r.:en thay : tere placed ..nthe tuba :nd it was 4
- 1c=. 3d . !ur a una sti.11 particles in there.
i ,
.. 1 .it the tira the other crew was hirad in this t
y 1 5
- otchly t~n to three mok timo period, subre Juont to your !
I J ; .cavfng t:4: job at Zitr.or, W Me you then vorhing at another I ;9 ,', .
- Job?
il A No, air. i ., 1
.. Q Tc according; to your cwn unica policy you bd.iove !
s a ihnt ycu :..:ccid aava ha.tn among thcGo to go back to that 1
- b? .
A : c:u.l e h.ne boon, yea, sir, nu hcw, I - it 3 l
2834 david 4 I rs. ries, yot knew -- thr.: basically if sonobody calls and
+,; s ay tht+y ;ca n want scrasbody to do on comebody, that's 1
%I what 3ngp.:r.s I
4 , 2 All righc, the problem, Mr. Martin, is we've a h2d tactiricay that day marely en11ed your unica r.o get t
?I c'ac hh e r c::c.>r. You understand that normally the hiring is c ano ':Jr:civ.a the union.
7 So that part matches. i 3! ')id you ever talk to your union busincas agent i i ! 3 ci cc to tmy you ccren't included in any of the crews sent h: l cut m Zimer?
.l t.
A I been trying to get ahold of the BA at that inI time. LLx. I caid, ho's not our business agent now, and 1 r4 I can't 5r. hold of hin.
;..,, Q 313 you ask him back then'at the time all this 3
- :. cccurred?
.Mo , sir.
,J ; A At that time I didn't know whether any
,, ti :illluri;h , sould ba bcch and by the time thatI knew they i
i had raph: raant mil'tirichts cut thera, and they were doing (i d . unic .lcb,'is had a differnnt DA. l . 9 i I T.enn, thic was like months later that I had any i
; , conte.7t. 'E ran into ora of the people that replaced .
I i n.s .m. 2a ::1d no abcu it. l
'i i
;) D M you ath anybcdy in authority in your union :
.; l i
I es te %y jeu waron't cent back to the ::immer sita? ' O
~
; ,,all,- the erly eno that could ha 73 cnsverq4 that
~
' ..q M g
i
l 2835 I david 5 sould. hsv e ac.tn 1t3. Wars, and I have no iden -- I think O ,
~'
f he 's in ? L . rida. I do not know where he's ut, o i
' :" ? L. Hera? Would you spell his nace?
,)
' !L i I acn't knoti how to spell it.
I: h 2 !/2.k e a q,.t e s t . Give us something clece.
', .1 I have to idea how to spell it.
L
! 'i211, you take a guess if somebody's going to t
- i
~
guens, Co 2haad. Give it your best shot. l.t
!,. O Mr. Martin, I'm not trying to be cute. I'm having i
h3 trouble tw.'s: standing you. That's why I went to got a hett?r apt 7:timat: cn of his name. l I
*! A ;1are.
2 MR. CCIEEU : ??cre? b4 [ IEE wit"F3SS: Hare. MR. COlTER: W-a-r-e?
'e ' IILE WIC%ESS: I would imagine.
E MR. IiRT. UTER:
. l, 9 And Mr., ' faro is the businons agent you previously 1
'i.
j :.*eferref. :.. who 1 no 2.cng.Dr there? I. f PU ,; A Ihah's right. 4 i~ l , u 2c; long as:er 2e other crew was sent out did j
.2 3 ; ou f f.rc . 22rn tiut another crew had in fact bec.n sen'
- r. ut to
- a 3 tr.ar nts IL kI I
~ j - 'd re ..;had peracnal knnuls6ge the oder crew j
./ !
i
.rnc .nir:.a : 3d ni.1n:i. Tcv knx, they tras laid off before I
! mea :::* ' .hin g C: . : it. Eccau3e I r.2".?.ad tc ene of i
l l l 2836 j david 6 I Q t?.2 workars there. ! k 1 Q 1cv long aftar? l e
)
3 ;. I don' t ::new . Several months -- you know -- it ) 4 was a long :i::te. l l 5j 0 .ias it roucile practice for the union to send the i < , d Jk a.vne peo7% bsck out: Ac a job that has been interrupted and 9 7 It then rewnd if thous people are not working when the job q \
- ll rasumca?
. b, 1 S 'ia 7. 'fon, sir, that's what I -- you know -- you want 10!'l peoplo on t'au job uho k:1ows what's going on.
1 If nomebody's I out thero that has coate familiarity with it, that's the 11 l4 b F 30Plo you '/ ant bac!t cr.t there, normally, unle::s there's
= some roe. con you dida't aant thoco pecple back out there.
s 74 h) Q 101. BRENUE R: I have no further questions. i
- s (Doard conferring.)
,0 hI MURtGli B2C UIOZFER: I think at this stage we'll N
;7 ij break fo :s x.och ar.d wa'11 resume with the heard questions at !
! p; 2 2 09 o 'clori:. f
.,j UDecupen, at 12:35 p.m., the hearing was l y, rece3ccv3 fe, !.unch, to reconvenu at 2:00 p.m., that sans i I:
2nd :.1 :f, 6.ay. ) i
!,I l cav1a nu. n i ,
Am e. D
_- . ._.- . . - .=, .. - - . . - = _~ . . . . 2837 5 david I AFTEI'KON .9ESSION
- .I i.
avid 1 2' (2:00 p.m.) f 1 tsho 13 3 OIIAIFfGM B3CF.Ifru:F5P.: Bach on the record. I 4l Is Mr. Martin ::cady? 3v Wher0HPOn, I il THOM*.S D. MARTIN 7 was racumed n: t witnosr., and havaing been previously duly l a jl cuorn, was en.mJned x: d tes bified as follows: i DOAR1 2 3.}'lINATION 9 ,J 10 ' DY MT.. BitIGIC: i , i 11ll Q Mr. !'ortin, c.17. I want to do is clarify just i i 1; . a few things in my own ui:.d. i, I
- n. f Firat, let mo ask you, when tha business of 1 1
. i i
1 14 incpceting tha rods firt:t came up and than you inapcoted l them, would you ::ny again procisely what you were told to w{ . in j do. n) 1 A Ycu rean t.te whola proceduro?
- g. Q 7en, uhat iso P.he scope of ycur responsibility? :
1 3 a Okay. V2 una told, you knew, to uso gaugos --
.c k you knew -- the gaugea. and if there was any problem we l
-4 ;. might as far :o tha sca!.s.. wa was told to exaninn the sills 1
f
.3 1, for ccratchoc and differc.:t mecourement.
3 4 t DR. { COD 32: 3.:anin tha uhat? I S :n13.
' ?cah, .2::Tr.ina t.he seals.
. THE U:*.ME3 3 s
- a. ,
i And thera wn: d!.ffara::t n .accron:Onts, you know., in tho
.}n .
ya6 .
2838 1 I avid 2 I can't ramcmber the rcoa.Ju emento, you know, like in inches l 2 for the movement of tha Lc;% and stuff like that. l 3 !!
- SY 11R. BRIG'lT : l 4'
l 0 As fa:: as the c:ala vera concerned, ycu wero , E o a !! to visually inopoct them f r: rcratchco, nicka, bungs, 3Y abrasions, thic kind of thing? 7 i A 'lo c , cir, that:3 all I was told at the beginning. l , u ,! C Yes. Now, sftc; you had incpected about . half of )
/ e j, ti d
o them or nomethinr like t's: or about half of them had been 4 j d k s! t inspected, did thoco its :2ctions change? 1
.. a 1
ji A No , u. .r . The instructions didn't changa, but at
- u. nh 4
g that time I seen the comp ;ntor, and they told me v:hich j P :e i
^ l1 places the -- you kn:w -- chectuothness was cupposad to be, 2
. d l
!! and like I enid before -- :u know -- the thing about the
.m
'~
i calibrated thing -- yca cr m - they said lock at them. t
- i
!, At no timt did dey say -- you know -- use this i comparctor cc ro ghnt.13 ch ack.
, j
'p Q Oka:,'., so then your use of a ccmparator in i I
s r. \ h determining the :Imcot'aeas of tha seals tmo ret pcrt of
.: .s N !
~~
j your duty an specifitelly laid out to yet? I
.* .g .
A Not !a the bc;i.inign -- you knew -- when we got i e-it we was told ,;o leth a: it but -- ycu know -- Onat's what i upset me at t2.a :ime. ? i:. kn.n -- you kr.cw - if you had l f a cct.parator, yn anc cid . ul tha .diffarence. "lon %ncu. l r
~
Q Th. *: :'m eenfm ;i S nt here i.s 2.:0t there'3 a I P00R OR M l . i
4 1 '
- 4009 david 3 $,, grott deal of differ.9cce, it uppears to ma, between lcoking ,
9 1 O - l: I for a acratch, nickt, btre 3,< this cort of thing, visuel 1 t i
.er ef
.; inapection juct to coa if - tc.re's anything significantly ; ,
f 4
.,O wrong with the real and actually conducting the full field f l
I inspection of t;:.a smotAt lees of the seuls, i o., I chh
. a Well, I guuns --
O So I'a usklng ycu; .cra you specifically told to j\ 3
, do that particu?.ar ayratien? !
o a No, c ir, : tz .sr.
- t. I uusn't particularly told
.7 ill ,
.,0 k but tihen I go+ mant c:mgarntor, I could tall the difference. l 2 h II o I knew what u..'.s right. That's the whole reason I'm here.
si eb
. . , The procedure .uc.n't ~olicwed the way it should bo. I mean,
,, j t
i if tha;r had a cc:.r:srator, they should have told us in the
., n l g .
,, j beginning hctr t.c use it e.rd overything -- wall, wn knew how
.a a c to uso it.
- m. 4 -, i
.. ;i ; ~,ut: it chot..lc: Iave been giren -- supplied at the i !
U :
'seginning. U.S Ncnt thrausrh all of them and chec.ked them !
n - that way. :'
.I ll i t
G Ch: y . LW: ma r*:h ycu about this comparator. You i say--Ibolitvaycr.rtestinonysaidthatitwaspointedoutte! . you wh.!ch of the arcm en the ecmparator was the one that i
- i cer capott/.ed te dia r: qui;, amenr. Jer the Jer13: roughly i
r.c - 3 .~17 O.4 I h e} en % 2 ~: 2
.? !.a (.irtim 7.'.:;t ed by a mar:cing of .scue :tind?
-.g !
2840 dnvid4 I$ D: 2- '.t uty "ir -63" -- 54, scmething like that, (
.i
-l or --
II 3 A S :i :. t's . 1cc: P.ino ago. I know I can't remmnber i
! hcu mar.y ove.4r i as, ;,t i was pointed cut so I.tany over from U '
then tcp .tnd ya n n 99 hr.u which onc in war.
'l , I e :.l1y Oc t't razenhor too much about it, but ,
~ i the fact tan 1 c ut in r.y ! tind that I was chound uilich one 3,
.U it vac suroor.c o ba, and they -- you lrf -- the seals nas a
' .c o.. tha card.
rong aer t'mn v t ic
, G Pnd 's;o cht m d con this particular apot?
A 'n .c r/ cper tor:. I doa't knew which ene it was. 1 , Q Sii. c 11r, ?a::1.1 or :t . Kananan? t .
' l, a ,1,:. u 4
, C At '.: tiac t:1e'.t indic.rced what was the appropriata pleen en the e t ara var, d. .u day instruct yc 2 to uso it?
f I L !!r.: :.i fa:- Ic ?:=21 2 it. It nac m2ch later -- {
, to 2:ck at 12. :t wa . d ?f,arist type of metal, you know.
?
It -;ct1d hcv:. - I at:.id t:cm at the nimo if you're supposed
- e. to 1 ok nt it (, . .lu yea P.n;c a picture inctead of a metal card, t 1
"a: ida ' t a lk a ac centre. Ycu're suu. posed to -
i 1;c.'. ;. 12. .;
- c.0 :1.' 1 :r st a pict21*a. Y: t. dina't have i
= 1/: no m 1. e O' 1
) C . ]'d 9 '. bd i .' C na 0.*1ra C. I (d r.T.* g CA; a 3 a')F'Sar3d 4
._ . - . . - _ . .- - . _ .. - -- . - - ~ . . - . . .
I
- a. .
.! I
' 2341 o
dc.vid5 IJ to "ou to be ' nehe me:tkin is. e 2ij 4. T.u, sir. e! 2 3h C ltr: somab:dy d.d a cloppy job of turning the 4 38cf. face? 3 i, A eM1, I dodc k acw -- you know -- if it's a
~
cicppy job. h 2y keep them polished. In my ostimation, 9 7 q if you'ra gcia; to have c seal -- if it's going to ha as 9' smcoth as that, you're scing to have either a different s 9 degree of cut L:caust tnst would change it er poccibly to j (
'O q chango ycur c.n 'le ca ycur cutting, but -- yct kncu -- I l t.
- ran lathea a 1detlo bit cad you cculd strictly do it i with lathoc li c tar thn. t hat was done. You know. I:ven
] l2 ,
- s viehoni: z.ny ..U.ar -- ycu know -- polishing or anything done
'q' to it af tarn.n.s .
.: Q tr ain:.y . you can poccibly work an e:teellent
.; surfnca wie c. latha. ,
.- le othar thing that hothered rr.a quite a bit.
?c y. -- vol.. E . 7,ai..tnen and.yca hare testified that thera :
i
- w. 3 coma en.c-- .ing d3na ra the scals with emory. ,
en
.g A I itinh lit. U2nanen said that -- I don't know l It was -- heins talking
; if he tsutio n. crer r :r not. !
i.
~.
a:w t eclin:i...b Th2r? raa smor'r used and there was a
- f. '.c 09 21 w . :r;.c of tec scratrJhes. IIs mentioned about !
, c c .. n 2 r.D , '- A gn na tt : in1. I don't know what it was; ,
l 30.oved, 'OOt thora 'tils i s ~ /0 ? '. '3. .- c.l 2 .7C U
~
l l l.- . ,, -
t j 2842 I ,
., t 6
r:cretnes that. .2ca runc 7. d at the job cita, i i
\ ' b 7 if.6 .,
0 7.C 3 tnis br! F.; raa to the part 'c hat bothcre
~
l nes: did you ; c t rse .f cro: une a file on th9 Jaca of the > I c o r.; ? . t i " A ;i:, cir. ca er o inc',..ancs . I did, but - you know -- when I T tot .3cno with it it w: s a: cother with the filing and with the r.ory. i': ?c n':rooth" the.n tvhnt it van criginally. O W ;, '. tan v.hia file work donc acrocn the entire N faca of ..he are..:.?
; .' \ 30 i;:c 14. va :'n ' b.
* ' ;. 2 7: .:t .:op M .toeton?
42 1 I r. , . a ~~ '. t v - t ". ' t for the ciretradorence, but
, 11 :an ~ ~p: . V: av - - EJ a.. acrcau -- you kncu -- tha
,' ! /.tc..a marf aa i p .: '..'it Ji. c ut n. . I 'n .a ching , ua:: it fint nerous on the i
r. whc.' 3 T.e'aca *^ any 'crt cf it? 1 i ria. 3.- t .: ' t: fla: -- you know - you get it cloco. i E00 0 .T o 6
<md 12 1 I t
..I I' 3Gotch a,3
-] ,, 2843 s- ,
1d' O, U C ., now, you're a millwright,.and I don't know }
' I O rose david 2 whether tus : c:mes wiehia vou= orverience c: noe, hue I 132 3 cht.nid '.hich t at if you have a metal-to-metal seal which a' dr. pends Oc xch a graat 0:: tant upon the concentricity of 4
3 .:hsse two un': .:.g parts.. : hat laying a file on ene of them
. l
., , uce.1d be not ecnside ed goed form.
a 37:autly, uir. 'i' hat's what I'm caying. The . 3 vhele procodm.a. Muf it uas probably botter than to i
., acratch, you *:rou, probably if it protrudes, you know, I
- air.'t saying :. ; w 21a he worsa than what it was originally, .
4 ' but that's a:.achar probicm, that you're exactly right, the 1
~.-
fi.'. 2 shoulc. arx.r hcVe b :en used on ene. ! I l l 0, c 5 r..- one fina.'. thing.
, g
, N:n ~.'cu did na? that you personally --
. h I una told to, yes, sir.
w
;y O. Gkry we'ra no: 1 coking for responsibility here,
. er "uho chee i.U a," I th.nk is what the legal people always S4 ca/ at this pof.nt. ,
. L 0::.?.y .
s
. , . ,, 0 !?a'ra just tryf.ng to find out what happened.
ae r'
,, Non Ect *:.e just ask a simple question, and I ut.uld ..i::o 2 "as" rf a 'no,' rnd then ycc can arplain it l l if ycu .mtid 1:'.ko. :
i i i
.i b i,, f f a '
e i t O l
, 0 C h. ' ' to 70u:7 ;UT par:Onal knCW10d'jo, ,
99 $@S
]
13-2 jwb 2844 : t
![ unequivcca!.ly, do you katw that Mr. Parla and Mr. Kananen f '
4 l 2] u did not ;orscrally :,nspoet those seals? !
'3 i L thll, I h r:w ti ay didn't on acme ci' them, Mr.
I 4 Parla, becauct va'd go ccn?letely through 'en and ho
- f.4 wonidf t even be -- he'd be cutside smoking a cigarette, So it'd be hard to ccamine anything.
3] +: - sir. l 7y hw I 'now if you get him here, that means his j 31 : job, he's going to scy he was, but that's uhere he ! s' van. I menn, wz wenn all the way through them and we'd . M tell him whnh t.uy war, and he'd be cutside smoking a ! u cigarette. j , o ! G Then the repcrts 'c hat the 00 peoplo usra respon-12]., i s I:; l cible for, th:y had to sign off on.them, they did that .
.1 i 9q withcut persemally es:pcet.ing the seala? I 1
e-; j A In sc ne cacer, yon, sir. l n
.}-
;a , O In cosa caccE?
q
; 7 ',' a. It w w - 'dha I said, most of the timo ha !
1 7; j was standing thera, and he could visually look at the coals f 1 ,
~
;g ! because I motn Sey're sitting there, but in scue cases i
~; . we go through tism, and he vouldn't be pnying no attention. i
- d' a Th:ra wac no way that he ceuid have done this 1
g, without you knowing e.bcut it? y~ A. I -- t B Coi'foa brec.hr, going to the man'c room, whatever7 i
,; I'n' jusit en:fi 23. ~1cu mrho an un2quivecal statsrsnt, and ;
E I uea QDk .
l
.. i L3-2 jwb , 2845 '
j' i 1j 4 vant to knov inut hcts strong this is. r l o . -
' 1' L He'.1, the er.17 cay he could do it was -- uhile I !
!! i 3 .4 ucc geno, une id he got tac crana, took the rods back out I i, i 4 ';i of the guide 02':es, and locked 'at it. I mean, that's as f
', ?
oh' definite an : :::tn make it. Lika ve'd give him the unecuretr.cnts, rid he'd as7er walk over to them where the 3 f'l*:
*/ U uaa:e tras, und v2'd toll . aim, you know, everything's all ;
t i C a right, and than he'd writa it dcwn, standing at the one 2. 1
?h end, a.nd neut w:11k u5 thoro and write this stuff down, e
'2 0 ?: and they was pu dcun o.: the thing. .,
e 5-tt iIc>,r I knew, yon know, it's going to be his word j i: -r 11 ! against mino. '.: knete Vut he's going to say,' but I'd be !
> t i
2 more than ui' li ng co ta32. a lie detector teat, because j r : MU what I'n tol'.1U you is tac truth. i t U1 % Well, I'm no'c 1rying to ir.pngn your honecty at
,' i.
- 9k,: all. I'm juct trying to find out what goes on in this j
* ** d imperfect trol:1d . i M MR. T.CGD'.': I think that'D all I have. Thank t
!? you.
. .C ' DY 3R, HOOPER:
f.
;. '! O lion, Hr Martin, frc a what you just told n' 3r. -- the otht: nend:cr c 2 th3 Board hera -- is there a
t n- anyt'aing to rf..a cut th1t these seuls could ba re been incp20 tad cit:13.1 behre yst were there or nitar ycu left? l l
]
- a. The:.' aculd unv? heon. sir. . e'$ 13 l- ? N J
w - - - _ _ - - - - . - - - - - - - - - _ - - - - - - - - -
1* 1 gi I t 13-4 jwb l 2846 I !l 0 Ycu <'.:n't knctr thout that?
., 5I I
\
~{ L Co, ::f.r, there' l be no way I'd know.
1: l 4 Bu t ycu're x.::e that during the time of your Q. , 3
. dj employs.unt tim.:, tha': you did all the work en inspecting u,
3 thesa s. asis? n a 34 1 Kel'., I -- rou %n::w, like I said before, h
- ' different tima you know, one of these dayo he could, but I.
3 ij in all casse,: niaan, there was cases where he couldn't f SI hava pocaibly .cz.n the rio210. In lots of cases he could ! t M !j hava scen pa: t of th,an.
-l
- 1y, C Wel?., new does at take two man en something like l
i 3ji this to Icek at the 2,ul? l 2 1 No,1 :.r, but yor. have to get around the end of
! it wherc it'a t.t. 2cn cai't stand around ths other end to c
25 cee it. M 0, Ycu I .ca, ycu h vs to have senebcCy hold it up
.7 O for you or cc.t1.hing?
n. c 1 30, it's en a r:ck. All you've get to do is
.: stand thera. ht if yor.'ro, say, on the other end er
.0 cutside ar.oki:r a ci7are.tta during the whole time that t
;. they've hea?. incpected En.' put down in the holas, you know, 7.n ' you r:aa't pec;i:ly knew what conditica anything was in.
9 ::"c. t .;ill not c: ear about thia. I:' theca things ! I
;,_ z:fo feat sitt::< around,'ty can't acr.eicdy ic this I whi'.e you'rP .. t s thern .a-c : ffac break? g I
ij i 130E juc I' { 2847 t
'" A riac n: to we takt it cut of the boxas, you know.
n f a '
^ l 'e f T dr.n't amnen2 t. P.tria et.ul: see through the bcx. i
< t 3y G ' 2c: .
o I A. Gc i. ; ' : tab.n cut of the boxes, pat on tha racks, .
3 i 5 l; .:tnd like ha *.o aid cuand tp at one end senotimes, or
- , .scr.ntin.an mit si12, nr.S never valk around where tha naals i:
., I
'40F at.
3 U2il, ::or you ony it's a matter of taking them ' G 9 out of tho Ec1:.1. Ia these cnly one out of a box at a ' I
'" .' tims? i I
d' ,
.t l'cu t. ? cur up tchen out of a box at a time. . l
?
o , 1
! ' ' .l O. and ,daile they were out of the boxos, you were }
l V ! l' i
.. thare a12. the hhte? ! l 1
A 77.c. :Lr, that ma part of r.y job to tako them cut of tha ic.: n, ro I hna to be there. , j
'^
G "cu'a svin thc? were never put back in the boxes W ano. taken ont t Jc.Ln? 1 I
.- A Uel l . jurt iha ::nas who -- when they changed the
- E speci21:c.tt.ca :: and wanted'. to rado 'em, they was put back 20 n; and taken bac: e.ut, hat then we got done with the ones
- th!.it was wcc r;nd, thay vac put down in the guide tube.
; 4 !k. t.. tetti rc.y uculd he, between the July 26th !
1 9
', and Scp;nhu; n. S SL , i:,n, that there's no way where l . f., !, cluco Ont:J. ,! *: ).'.d hTra ~x !,r. inapocted by an7ene alas when
( ; yee w, % : ns, tae u s :me se that wey, whan yeu i l . L
g i
?
13-6 jwb 2848 , 7 J weren't around. .O
~
A No. We *uaJ ta%ing thto out of the bo t and putting , t 3' them in the control -- like I caid, in the majority of l 4 cases, you know, he ::oult but I'm saying that in some , 3 '
, cases that ho 'ms in a place where ho cculdn't poscibly see i i 3
the caal. l . e Ycu 2aan ha una in a place where he couldn't sas ! 4 7h h them. Il 3
! A See, you haow, he wac on the other cnd of the
't control rods, ho couldn't poanibly, you know, see how rough "O lel .
!! them acals unc, but really, you knew, as far an anything, ,
ll *
!2 ,j it didn't maho any difference, beenuce the acals that was ;
O = ! ve==oa white a> " =='t *> re wa=a'e == " r== **aa *he aa - 1 'e l that was passed while he wac there. n ; o , 1l Neu if we had 2ny thct was any worse than that, j M !{o we'd told him and he would como up and loch :t '2m. You ; l' know, anytima yo had a paoblin, you know, ac far as a ; c1 j ccratch or sc:nathing, un'd got the inopocter and ho'd come u < I and check it.
- i i O
r.0 jj But if you had no problem, you know, like if j b : l' they'd already hacal ;accad, you knou, therc'd be no rnacon z.. ' to get the innpoeti:r to icoh at it. E O Go you're cayir.g -- telling uc th.'t tha roncen
. you know that '.o / didn' ': look at thoaa -- he vauldn't look
. _ , at acma. of theca actis, uac because ycu vers thsre and 9p e#
l 13 ~ jwb 2849 1 1[ was not in the position to saa them -- i' I!p ! A Yes, nir, J g - and thcn eat was true, cc -- and thoro's 3[ ., 49 no other time -- in other :crds, when these are cut of the 5j boxes when you waren't thure? L
$: A Well, you know, in come casas scme of 'am could 7 of been left on thcra, fo: lika lunch or scnothing like S{,' that, but we cenpletely go through a cet of four, ycu know, 9 where he was at s peint where he couldn't ses 'em when 13 they was dcwn in the guide tubes.
n' G You n.can you put them back in the bc:ces. Is i t, j tnat right?
.l A No, we didn g, t., Only if they was' defective. j
\ : 4, G Whah t:culd yon do with them then? 6 33 j' A Il they was defectivo, wa put 'em back in tho 1 l ; i g jj 1 be:tes . If th2r wasn't, un put them in the guide tubec.
.i I
;, !l 4 You'd go ahear?. :..nd inctn11 them, then? !
Ja > l i pV-j A He *ccul6 cene bcck but they was wrapped bach up. l l p yJ g I see. I ree. e : i i
..w; ,! A And pt.t back in there. t
..f.
G Tell Is about this union rule and the matter of ,- I
-- l:a
- e. the coni in.;pacticn. You crty it's not possible for the '
l 1 f ' (
, quality nacurance man to .3ctually inspect the senis? I
- .; A I thir.5 vhan yce -- you can check into it. He ,
A
~
. can 100k at the mani, het a.1 it ' cc teuching car 'rork, I l
13-3 jwb 2850 I Ij ; mean, it may be n. ;;111y thing, but they're nct supposed to, u 6 and that's ocr job. J O 4 You c an't tauc?- the saal? 4[ s A : Tot unlesa wc de it first. You knew, lika I said, F 5f it's a cilly praesdure, but, ace, if he could do it without t 3' us d0inggt first, then 1. hat would eliminate a millwright 7 from doing\'that particulcr job. 3; 4 'de can't svaa run his finger around it? e , i . 9 i A Ac Icng as we'ra doing it, it'c fino. i T , a Dut yot.'ve get to do it first? M il , A. Well, so leng es w6'r.3 doing it, it don't really
. .- f
. ?. ,. make any difference whc'r doing it, first, but, you know, I.
1 l they -- i
- s [ s- ,
f M "a cculd heve ccne it first and then let you do
- 4 S . i .
- r~ ;
! I '
it afterwards?
- 3 q l ;
i !j 9, A
*Ier.ll , it's possihia.
t i i ii I
,7 ,a.
S Eut in all ca:es, you scy you got to run ycur i
<s .
7 4 finger aronnd the coni, cico. Is that ccrrect? l
.e ,
's !
jf A We wars au;peacd to. I :=.cnn, it got, you know, ! 4 1 y, dr we was fairly util acquciated with Mr. Peric, because he
;,j O[ worked with un nost cf the time. I mean, wo trould, you l a
. /:1
?mcw. if hs Wr had te chtch the saci -- I ain' t as.ying that :
1 1
'l in svary cass h2 chec%sd the ::c 1 that we rschechad it in l
- avtary case, h1 all rarily annt to bring cut ia that the j 2aal:3 tra nee Oc :ny tPrt that cc:d scys :hny vn suppes,#
?$ "
i 13-9 jwb o * <1 f b Ii to 'c e, no mat.ta ; who : hec Aed them. O , '*t
~ ',
Q. You c.'.y that ac c tillwry nt, you have caen quite 3 a few matal ceals he. form. Ic that correct? 4j L I wo:1dn't say "cuite a few." I said I'd seen 'en. 3, G Hott many hcTe you setn? } d , 5} A I wouldn't have no idea.
/! O to you hrow, ara they all alike?
V , 3J a. No, they're dif"oront, but any time you got a j a
? 'I metal-to-metal scal, yea scel for n=cothness.
'l
- s
' O ": ap Well, do yc2 fez 1 the metal-to-metal seals all I.I.
ii ! have the name f.incticn? ' I
'l. A. No, t>ir . Chat'3 tinat I'm saying. J' rom the
- 3 very beginning, I did not knew what that was, and that's t
u[ i the rencon I did net question nothing till I saw the
;I [ comparator, and they said it was supposod to be such -- you
, 1 3h know, smoothnacs, and then at that time is thes I thought D c>h there w us scrothing vrcas. You hecw, before, I had nc ; 4, :,
- 2j ,,
idea hcn it was used, hcu smooth it had to be, er nothing !
, -, i
- 0 , eli:o. }
1 ,
, r; j{ G anothar thing that confuses me a little bit about ,
, 1 I
- r. : 1l ycnr tastimony hsro, who vac it who told you hcw to ese this ; c r, 'l -
guide? I d.iih18 t triderstand who told ycu -- I n Mcbc 2f told r.e heu to taa it. They just pointed n_, n.
'; cut 9hnt place S.a crott'nssa r wac suppeacd ic be. Nobody said, yet bc 7, ycu 'icci it, - becauce they nececr told un to j P00R BRE M .
'I
' l, 13-10 jub 1 2852 h
If fcel it anyway but hhoy juct pointed out to me which g a place on the car.1 ra; su':pssed to be the prescribe 3 e
- l s=cethncsc, an.i it ::sn' .
t 4] '4 (1 Tno ucinted thic cat to you? I think you may 59 have told -- 0
$l .
A Cn: of tis 02 ;sopis, you knew, I':n pretty surs 7l' it was Mark :?a.:la, but r cc.117 at the timo, ycu know, I 9 il.. shewed thes, y su knew, t old them to feel it, and everything l b 5' aise, then tim'a v1.:n h2 told me about the calibrated ; l I 10 [ . fingarc. L
.. G 7cu'ra ;ccitiva ene of the GCs told you, not 11 jl. am.c ether mil?. wright told you? '
is }I, L Th e uilhrig:.a.t: wouldn't know no mero than I did. p pj I mean, they j. tnt brought. tne card out. We didn't know I 1 F
- , where it ccmi frem.
- d ii Q. But it's sort :f funny that he -- ycu didn't ij I
;7 j nel en accignaent cf using thic thing, and yet you say .
l ij K. that he peine.e ! cut tha .:ar5, of' the guide, or whatever it j i ' 1 ~' mb was, to uce. t can' t re:encils thema things. 1 a Il np Ec d'.dn't tell you to use it. Why did ha point il.
. i
;; !i eut the -- s.-hat is it -- ths part that 53 :"J3 part? These l i d
a , 3" tuo statmanta don't gil ). You see what I m2an? )
, i 7 .1 I - un Qratuid that, cir, and I neuld t
, imagina ha 0 ui.:hing h2 hc.d never told ca what Emoothness 5
3 it was aunto m te ~3. :th nu f a ct ramaian h & ; pg %di a
~ --
13-L1 lwbr, 2853 h a Iq me. I vec teld, And, Z :nean, there was quite a fcv 6 2 pecple, you % 01. It wasn't juct, you kncu, so"to person 3[ aaid that' a d'c , you knca. At the time, everybody knew . , i 4 6 that that'a what it uss sqppossa to be, you know, it I i l' wcon't just o:3 parten; e7erybcdy knew which point it was l l 3 lg suppocad to ba, and the seals ara not at the point that 7 j.'i was pr.:crito! On the cara. I! l Jy L1 Hell. was cny rnoothnecs -- did you just run~ , i 4 5 i' ycur finger a::2:.nd on this thing? Is that the way you , I I.; l n
'O ' could te2.1 wha.: ter f.t wac --
f 4 11 d*l A. Ilo. Jaa, if yc2 run your finger around it, C l1 ., thnd's the va/ she 10the rute. You havo to go down it to m! ;, feel the 6:.if 2:ance in vcriations of ycur -- I i
"a ji G Can 7:u describo this surface that you were
,i ,
o 13 9 fceling? Shai dess it 1cok liko? Decc it 1cok liko your ; si u
.J nand, er reme ning like this (indicating)? Can you put i I
;7 . your hanca up ::o acrt of describe what the surface Icoked ,
p i. l3 like? , n, n. Ch, it waa li%c that big (indicating cuped hands) P i
.;; I arcuni, I <jvess. j i
L 0krg , now 90uld you be feeling all the .'
. G :
inside cf pen: 1.icaes, or just the face cf it?
. . . ;., L 'J. .e 71acs 't.iere it's tayored, and whera the seal rculd h.ai r
lI2. " U.EIE2 !. J . 500p2:f I We2d2r #.f I"Q7 P00R ORE M l
12-12 jub . 2854 I recrectfu .1.7 eng pst that if that si::o dimencion is 4 I impcrtant t.: you, ycu had betts: get him to cay scmething I 3 besides holding up his hands. l
-i ; BT LR. HOOPIR:
e Q. Y ns. It var a cice cemething like holding your 4 I handa with, .zay, a tuc-inch circle, or something like --
', 1 I'd ny it's a "little bit bigger than two inchec.
'l R j g Accut three indes?
i i> 1 Thres, four. Like I said, it's been a long time i D ]l ago. The on'y thing that cticks out in my mind, it upset i
! g me at tho time , that i hen I felt that card and fol.t the seal, 2
4 12 !! thny was nob -- the seal '.zas roughar than the card. N
'" " 77c11 hcw uide was the surfe.cc that ycu had to 0
't fact en hore?
i, 't 172u1C. you say la's a half-inch? This is sort
~ '
. .I of a fir.: surfcce'that runo around?'
.g 2. Ih we.r a tapert' aurface. I'd say myhe a littic 1:ss. ,
l i t' 1
". U ,
Q. Half cn inch? , t l i g )
.;I, A. I w w.'dn't ~.ike to give no specific meacurcments. j
+
y't
;; - If you juqt T9.e -- go chnch the seals, I mec.n, they'rs ,
t. urcag. I dtn't Mnew -- r;. Jeu :x.id this befor3, but I wc.nt to kncv what _. . .v. er Mcv ltcu : ic': 3 -- wbthor you 're real*cr -- I'm not W " M # $D d $@ 4 N .
O it 1 13-13 jt(0. l 2855 i , th:ags you acid this acrning. I can't be confident from (" h vhat y:c~'ra asi.3 that yon really felt the coala. 3 p 1 f all, mayb : I didn't, but that una the thing 1 that uher tas calling the scals when we was filing on them. They cold un to flie the seal, and that was the thing we van fili-.g on. 3o I as t:1e that they knew what the seal van, I mean, it 1 coked like a seal to me. I don't know, i 1 sir. Ycu .:no:3, ::'m not trying to get smart, but this
; ; whe :.c thin:J --
., G Util, who told you? Did comebody come and show
, you, "this ir Mo sc.11; this is c::actly where no vant you u, to file?
- 1 Uc11,*: hen wo vac feeling the roughness, and they was burs sa it, they told us to file the seal, and that's what va Jiled.
0
- q O. Oh, a hur? T:.1is is a hur on the edge of it, or n ,
scrathing? i 1 Uher 2 it hih cenething.
; G % ca2. But you didn't take a. file and go all over the cucot.1 curface?
~
; I thought you told Mr. 3right --
g, 1 1 1.crona the surf tea, not -- around the surface. i 4 C'uat it 3cr. you 'r3 filing on. . t 1 Y:.D, ik :,1c3 ac?.c31aca where they'd, you kncu,
., jucu cena r.p, .m a fcat fil<a acrosc the curfaco, not l.
~
aru 16 4.h: 3=:!aco. P00R MM
s 13-14 jwb 2956 t t 1l G C "1. :: underst:cd from this morning's testimony ii
>I the.: yo:t 2i1+1 <;ue irregu ".arities in the smooth surface, 6
>t! which I var 71::f.cus chout ,
I 4d & Fe, . : *:aa just a hurr -- V 5 ':i a G'uc : ti burr tha: you filed on. ' li 6 1 Y o.3 ,
'l [ G All :7.ght.
H : 21 And ;':a say tha1 your instructions really wora, 3:
. tho only inst:en;tions you had was to sort of inspect these N
10j for scratches .ind dents, '.s raally what they told you to
'l i
i ,-
'. do?
14 _ i,. A Yes, lir. 11ast ir of fact, that's what's in that lis , paper, ':0 cha:h for n.: rat:hss and dents. o a I
>. Io S But it's pc3 cit 1.o that after the scratches and il 'f
; i; der.:c, that 3e.2abcdy cama and officially made an inspection
'l is 1 besidec yer. s.41.?, when yes veran't thars?
t
- 3. If :ny was tak an back out of the thingc, yes, i 1: I
;u " Jir. I i
it 9 Let'1 anc. Tran: -- the matter sert of comes up ; n aF here, I don't k wa how fa.:, if you can toll us this, you a h cav. you live in %ct: tr r. cf the plant. Is that correct? ! a
- 2. a. :: li 3 in .belia. !
Is as -S l i
.? I *.131 .],1.
C V 1, J . Q. [*. : '
- 2 it (*.'nt ? y L,
1: .,w :. ur .:. n , ie': ec,a io, I guess. i l \ l l l
i . [a l w j
)
# '.. .d. a.~ 1 2857
., i O 9eer your e2.ploycr know you were living there? l 7,
Did everybody ac the plant knew you were living in that aren? t .4
,, N A. 1 t:11 them I lived c1cse to the plant, and I'd aj f like to ne it Sne right, sir. ;
3
., Q You co.id tham you wcro worried about the plant s
1 l
-; when you livei in the urw ? Did you express this?
y , A No, ~t just hc:3.use I lived in the area. You 7 > l j krov, I hrve the name encarn, because I'm planning on leaving
- the arca, but I still ,iant it done right because everybody I
~
can't lee.ve. 10l Q Upt y:)u told thm you lived in the area and l 11 : i I utre concerned uout :Te plant. I think you said that. 3 .! 4 h A Yeah, I did. I was planning, if it opened up, to u i move, but ever/cody caa' t :ceve. i.1] ' j 0 How did you get along with all these people, your j i quali':y aasurcr o guys, like Mr. Kananen ,over here? Did you 10 ', y get along well lii:h him, er did you talk to his vary much?
.m o i A Not 'r cry inuch. I.iko he said himcoif, he only did 13-
.. 19 of thc contr?'. rods. I mostly dealt with Mr. Par?.a.
IS -l
] Like uc'd even ci out 2nd Irink during lunch, and he'd
^# 9
'{ bring . beer back. so we was fairly well acquainted with Mr. ,
-1 t
, P FLIl0. .
3 i , Q 15.3 *i i frio'id cf all the other millurights, teo? A Y.rs, ji. . l _,a - Q Ycu t .' g:t a.ic:19 pr: tty well.
- .d !
, R $M confir.i:c.) f) pq j iN -
i cr2 2858 1 BY CHAIRMAN BEC:IHOEFER: 2! 0 Mr. Martin,, I wanted to inquire first about 3- the period of tine beforo you said the comparator had been 4[ brought onto the cita, or that you used the ccmparator., i 5l A I didn't really get a chance to uso it,the i G! firch ti:ae I seen one, they wasn't in that area we was working e 7l for about 50 porcent of the rodo. i 8, Q Well, I want to talk about that period of time.
-3 Thosa early rodn, the .:ods that you - bhe first group,
;O . you inspected those only for dents and cuta and things of I
J1[ that naturet is that correct? T3 A Yeah. Same thing that's in the thing, the scratches I t3 and , stuff similar to that, yes, cir. j)' O Now, trosa particular rods after you inspected
;;3 ' them, what happened to them? Did they get immediately ta installed?
ty ; A If they pae: sed. I l i p3i l Q Acsut:.ng they passed . d, to s A Pac::cd, yes . y; Q So they waro inr:talled at that time?
;) ; A Thrt va:: in the rackr you know, they wasn't in i
, ,3 ! the ranctor, hu- they vac :.n the rack, yes, sir, i 1 4
.j 3 Q What I'm trying to fiejara cut is af ter that t1:30 , !
[
- es e e .. . a toose /, h i
,3 i been s:::Itiasi v ib a :::2po.?ator? Not by you, nece:33nr'ly, but ,
i 1 i j I l J
[ 2859
"#3 1 by someona, by :Ir. Parla or Mr. Kanenen.
O a! ! s wu, there a a p-1suity, sut it wee 1d de 3 .' complotoly againct unioi ruloa, and that was a union job. 4 There had to be nillwri.Jhts thera to help get them out, cet i 33 them back up ou :he rachs to be examined. O l' OL 0 So they couldn't havo 1een examined when they were l' i y lli in the racks the" were placad in or -- I mean work had to be
,1 3l dona on them --
3 A They t.'an in :ho guide tubes. i g' Q Yea, ..a the guido tuben they couldn't be e::amined i g; as such, at t'.:at point.
'lP. I T Don't 1:nov any possiblo way, no, sir.
g 0 and they wora put in thoco guide tubon irmnodiately
.;4 l after your exami.nr. tion --
t' l
.,. A sa q Aftar they una c.'.anned, yas, 1
.g .3 p q Yec. And what period of time was that? I mean, i
. .j.
i 10 thic a matter of minucca or hours or days?
;l
;,3 A Mc11, na sco, no /ou get dono, that's a mattor of
..,)
.. y( minutca r as soon c.s they go: done, that's *,shan they start
,,J to bo put doun 116 the halo.
c.
,,, q Q So .ta 1'ar as you wars cuaro, thoco rods and tha
,,,, ! aarlicat ones bak:o you had accoo to the comparator, they
. j ceuld not -- boy.cc en :ha time you a::amined then und the l i
tia n AS*:/ wor:. ;m.v. .i n the t:,. bus , they could not have been -- t ocucoce e.',aa con: i
,,., .vr: ..a.n 3::amined them, ::s hr ca you are ;
j 1 I '
1
'f' 1
ar4 2860 1 [
.i 1 tuure?
i 0i A I den't set any way possible, no, sir. 3 C New it. tat about before you examined them, what 4 happened co thorr? Did yon uncrate them and examine them at 13 a very chort tir.c interva!? 1 g A Yes, sir. W'c'd uncrate them, put them up on the y sawhoraec and inspect then, and if they was good, they was i' , 1 3 3 put in the guide tubea, and if they wasn't, we'd put them back 1 9 in the box.
;9 0 Af*.cr you uncrated them, and before you examined
.; 7 the.3, I ts):e J.t, what amount of time elepsed then? In that
;,3 a very short om-iod?
4
;3 , A What, from the time they we.s uncrated to tha
;g time they van dcen?
I O The d e you c::amined them for bruises and cuts ! y i
.a..l, and scrapes.
, A W21:. as far aa on the seals, that Ins a very
.7 chort tima the::a, but, you kncu, we had to vacuum, run the 3
,3j gauges at 1.iem. in so.co cases aika them, and then wach g; them down u.ith .:ceton a, and thran put them down. [
.c 4 ! I m:tn it sounds lika a lot, but if you run it up m
;,3 , vibh the gnuga, you IL:cy, and ncthing sticke, you vacuum --
.x-7acuum chen, Oh :n ycu Vash the.m. It's not r?, ally much time ;
,g 3
involved. 3
. . . O Ma.:o : Jeu r :::al.ly there during that whola period
P ar5 2861 Il of timo between the time it was unpacked and the time it was 6 i. 4
*q incertad into t;n guida cubes?
h 3 l4 r.l A ' fos, :3ir. d I), O and I suppese you can remember no one other than
,i se
- R
, yourself had a a:nparator and did the mencurements or tests, 3 using the cofaparator? I'In talking about the --
.i l.
7 A Cen?.T;anor -- I didn't see no comparator, until i 8i thara was 50 porcent of th 3m done. t 0 0 All r:.ght, and /cu were present during that, l i W l; casentially during the whole period of time between the time iv 11 ;, they wers unpack 1d and the time they were lot into the guide v 2P.N tubes? i: 13 !! A ros. 1ir. M ,,O. And you would h we had a chance to have seen k a IU 1 anyone elsa val::. v.p wi:.h c comparator and do it? ' n - . I
?G vI A Yes, air.
'I 17 h Q Ordi::r.rily fou To under union rules -- I will to paco that fer .:he memc.it, .insuming somebody was violating
"/2 : them.
;l 9
10 '] A C%ay, yenh. No, there was nobcdy walking around. 4 21 I knew neb Cy r.~hed up and .nanined them with a cenparator, 2 yea, sir.
$3 0 I Tic : 3 zh2*:' a ; hat I 8:n driving at. i
)
m Ion t:ntic:..d T.at you filed certain of these i i y piacus. Zou w.;. tl.au -t t-o sarly tima period or latar? P00R Dil!GINAL
1
- l l
arb !, ! 2862 1
,c. 1 4 ,i A Well, really, 1 don't remember exactly when it was. l C 6 r l 1
I don't :uo if it made an' a difference, but they was filed O q because if scrcr. thing decicice, you know -- it had nothing 4 to "lo with comycratort, it's, you know, a burr, so I don't i U remember a:::ctP; what timt it naa, but I do remember, you u know -- 7 ': 0 Woll, was that the type of bruiseo or cuts or il 3 roughneus -- net roughnesc, but the types of things you were 9a 1 coking for ir.itially? ij 10 A Yec.h, that's all we was looking, was just nicks 1 11j and bango,
- 2 l, O Nov vara t:1oce -- you said the pieces were filed.
- t n
G1 You did the fillig; is thct corroct? M ;, A 7eah on on2 of them. II
;0 ., O Ucu .; s thct ;rrticular one installed in the
'd d reactor?
1:< A 'f ec , 31' - I don't kncu if it was act in the i
.3, reactor, ict ih vaa put in the guide tubes to la placed in
~
q
's a the raccter. 2 10n't know whether it actually went in the
;,0 guido tubes.
; O ~ c2u. nou do fou know of anyone elco who did 1 a cny filing? t M nas o;her mill'.trights also do filing? !
A ': '.: n.a re ihn 'i Campbell did, yeah,
, The one
;; t* t c. t was :2f r :' fr:n a brr 10 a pratty bad. place, thia 1
,; is : ost aa? c:ar. ? ple m a, you :c:ou, it didn' t taku -- it ;
i P00R ORIGINAL ! . l l
i ar7 j 2863 1 1 ij wasn't like c.c na filing, all day, you know. So I could 2 possibly, you ka m, if I *;scuumed, even miss it. So I don't 3 .; kno,. how many w2; dona. I'm pretty sure Kenny did some, e U 4 q but I can? t car 3::actly hcw many cr anything like thct, 5 "l becausa it'a a vary crick ,Srocedure, becauce there's not'a O ;J wholo le t of f !.1.ing. You know, their didn't try to take a big 7 ji. gob..off and trf to c= oth it off. It was just small burrs, I i DL but they w3u fiU.ng done. 9 (- Q The oie you mentioned that was rejected, did
!O h anybody try to ?8.1o that first, or was that obviously too d
ng seriana to try and fil2? O
*/
12 A I dea't think anybody tried to, or I don't really ( ;3 j remcmher that la3tance. 3ut from the beginning, you know, 9 g ji' just pertinent c: tings t anything that was rejected, I, you know, lg j I lay up at nigr:c, yo2 ::r sw, lay awake at nights thinking u I
;g aboct the things that aappanod there, and if it was' rejected
,j 7 , and wasn't goin; to be usei, you know, I'd havo no reason to --
.; 3 Q Uhat Um trying to develop is did anybcdy try to
;3 "caka it acceptu13 beforo -
V . gg !j A It in : in :ch s chape they didn't even try to, l h ) 3 but I cnn't ray infind tely, but. I don't think so. !
- 1. }
,3 Q Mcw, if tar foa get the comparator and during the l i
g period of t' T.u. 7 m usc. .i it, was one of the quality control
.. inspec:crs ar n .-i or in tha general area etery tiro you used l , . .
-- <:very ti: y.: per.-1;rned these inapoctions?
P00ROR,1,Nb I - - --
arc i 2364 I 5 A Lifte I said -- oi
~j Q I ' m no : asking at this tiro whether ne saw each e0
~t one, but were thmi in the ganeral area?
aI
"". A In the general area, yes, sir.
- 4
~]n Q You said on a :ortain number of occasions, they g .,
il certainly cbserved you doing the test; is that correct?
, l; A Well,~~. would imagine, you know, if they was in o.il q
the area and they saw me feeling the seal, and I told them I O f was -- it didn't nake any difference, but they saw me 1 coking 1 My at, you know -- I got to the point where I didn't even mess f i{ 4 with the seals. I worked c.a other things, because, you know, yo 1 d every time if I call them it was there, it didn't make no ,, 3 C dy difference, there wasn't no conse in me repeating myself i q I4 if I wasn't getting ncWhero. They knew it and wasn't doing
. a 4 0 i' not)ing about it.
IS [! Q Could you at 12ast give a ball park figure that 1 l 1 1 U- the number that they timmsc1res ran their fingers over, or l
- i 1
ne e do j with the ccitparator or on the surface? l U 10 '! , A Well, I really don't know, you knou, according F MN toi:1L Kananen, the way h3 told :ne at the time, he said d 27 I you don't got no calibrator, for him to just lock. You know, j 12 lock for dents and sers.tche's, that's all they w2n lecking J
.E for. There'd be to ree3o.a to fac1 it. .
l ( 21 But if you'r0 'ocking 'fer differance of roughness, { l 25 you'd have to f W. it, ^:uz i.f yo *ra just 1 coking for dente l l ~ P00R3RIGINA'
4 l cr9 2864 ^
'l and scratches which is on the sheat, if that's what you are
?
2 ;. 1 coking for, thera would be no need to even feel it, because l-3 ;- you can tell a f.e.it or 1 acratch by sight. 4 "s Q Uhat .I'm trying :c determine is the m1mbar of 9 3 )1 times, at least innofar aa ycu are aware, that thsy thanselves l Jj felt the surfcce and felt the ecmparator.
! A I didn't see them feel it vary often at all. You 7!
F e '.t know, I can't say c:tactly heu many, but I'd say a relative 1
).g few number of timas, boca 2s2 I war instructed to -- you know, !
3e I was doing this icelinef, a,6 overybody elco was doing what ! i I I in g; } they was told. I was a 1.!.ttle upcot, you kncu, because when ! 4 73 ' I saw the compara7.or was different, that so far as doing 13 what us was t01d l.c to !.cok at tham for scratches, you wouldn't> y d need to feel it. j gl , Q But af.er yo.1 7c : the comparator, after it was ; in your area of t% eita, did you uce it on ovary rod you
.g {l L :j,l exmnined? ,
g! A No, I used it on quitta a feu, and it get to the f I g point where 2 didn't run across ncne that would pa.3s it, so ; i + g; I just assumed if it wn: : hat bad, it wouldn't nako !.ny i , difference if therest c/ :h n was good, but I just accumed
'1 3
,,, that they run a g mersi pat:2rn that mest of :hara, if =ct all 1 r
! i
. .,, .,. of them, was bad. I can': any all of than wac bad, because
. .1 '
like the first in. ..f, I lidn ' t even have, you kncu, have O ' y . . . the co=parator to ccm s :o 1: with, af tar a wua I 3:st sot , .
.:z j j f,
er10 l 2865 1 away from it cecause, you k::cw, every one I was checking was 2' worse than what u.:e compara:or should have boon. O Q Can you eatinate the nt:nber after you got the 4 comparator, after it una av.ailable to uso, can you ostimate 1 3i the number whoro <:ho conparator was used? And the number j l where it wasn't? Again, a ball park guess? 0( 7 A Ho, I .ccally couldn't come up with a figuro. You ! l 0 know, it's a very large porcentage of the rest, you knoJ, I gl because even if, ycu know -- I was indisbcliof, I was still, f: you know, constaraly g:in'; Jack and checking them because, to [ti 21 jg p you know, it don'. taka jus 1 a fool. You can fool it readily i , f3 t if it's smooth or not. B.it a very, very large garcent was I ( 9;) IL' rougher than the acal, but C ccanot, you know, pinpoint it, j
- l g.; ; and that's only on half.o? :: hem because I don't know about gg the first half, bacau.so I didn't have nothing to ecmpare it g with.
l 1 i g7 'O Well, :'m tr; ring to determisc on the seIond half j j gg]n how many of them .rere c7en 2xamined this way. { pi i A Well, I don't (now if people was instructed to I gg do some that way,aven on the chock list it don't say r. hat 3 4 and we was. not told to do it, and if they do -- I know one t , I e gj time I think I e:Jtimated at least 75 percent of the total, ~ j I !
~
-. but I was juch fi ftxing that maybe 25 percenu cf theco wera l 1 .I ;
,, p , out of the fic .r.. Icif c cut of wha'c I didn't check that ,
1
,m.
might have been :Lght,.':ut I would Cay it'a pr:sb Dl'! i [ P00R ORIGIN 2 ' I e
t cril 2866 1 even more than that. I car 't ecma up with a figure, but like 3{ I said, every one I checkec2 -- i ! Oi Q I'm not trying to get the number you thcught l 4[ were defectiva, I'm trying to get the nu=ber thet vers 5i examined with the comparater, and I gather that the first half 3} weren't, and that a cartain percentage of the next half 7 weren't, and I'm trying to got some figure on that. 3l A Maybe 25 percent the second half, I personally 9 ,. did it, but I don't know, possibly the OC people checked -- pl I don't knew oxr.ctly what they did. But I know that the i 3j ! seals still didn't pass the thing. There was nothing --
!S[ there would be ccmething iri tha records, I would think, i
w, semothing shculd be bc.cu,Eht up by the NEC, did they know, , t I h because in the rccords - if it said it was rougher than L l t3 ' , the compa ator. ) ac ; (Eoard conferrir.g.) pj , S2 DR. ECO9ER: r3 0 Mr. tiartin, cc.n you deceribe this comparator thing for me? In this a page or a piace of cardboard or 10 , i 39 , sonathing? 3g. A No, it's a piecn of motel, sir.
;.3 >. O It's - picco cf metal? Ecw big is it?
g A (":ndic 2 tin
. I gucsa mayba about ad:: inches by
?
fenr' and - a hall; ccrothir.g li::a that. I don't knew the _9 .; l g 3Z21Ct mGa3nrT*1J.2t:3,. It k*a; ju:2t a pi **. c# u ~ctC1 that had I i s, 1
. . - - . -. . . . ~ _ .. .. - . . . - - . . - .- -- .. -
1 i ar12 l 2867 y- dif f.arent acgr se 1 of rott1hneau on it. O d 0 ed hm e m e e aesree of tcueneoa errensed 3; 1rcund en thia pl.<aco c2 pepor? ! t 4l A It'a lot a picco of pnper, it's a piece of matal.
;, Q Picco of uetai. I'm corry.
I 3] A Woret aas, I hol.ieve, two lines. lI 7q 0 Too 1Ln:s'r i A Liks I onfd, it unc a long tima ago. The only thing 3 g I knew 'c the point tacy pointe >l out wao smooth, tha ceal i WDC Tough'itt **han the $31nt they Chowed mc.
! 0 ]'m trfin'; to decido how you know for nura you
,,1 l we.ro talking a cac the cana point. Cnn you identify -- which
.g ,' point on :hia plato uc u thin rcughncoc titing that was identi.flod Ior you, ce n ycu identify which corner of it?
Acc it in tha :tiddle? Warc it on the aido, or how was it you I laid it on thic ~olaco of statal? f3] . A Sir, that viss t long time ago. I think it wau y;] a l about three or 'aur ! os. thu end cd thin smoothneau cido.
'.' 3 -
1 0 of Ra ::ncothnunn nid a, three or four frem the end? o A 7 B Ci no ro. I can't any that'a the exact numbor, F.) ' O' but I know cc tre tim, ycu know, I didn't junp over one, I 21 ,! was on th<: r'.St.0 ona Lt t!'ar, tim 3. I can't cay that's ,
..a whose it was ac;, that wec a icng timo ago.
3 , O Ihi t pnGil ic , tho*:gh, that yCC :319 fat havn miatahan! O- , the ;mcof;r.:ia: $ hat 7t a w.:a Ov.ppeced to -- ,'
. .a s P00RORIGlNE ,
L- -
-_. . - - - _ - . =-
ar13 2868 3i A Mo, J.ir.
?
s 2, O Eow can yet be curs? 3- A Lecarce the.y showed to, I had it right there, it _3 , . vac this one, you know. 3 ,, Q Did it have a number on it or anything? A 3 I didn't evsn rancaber, sir. I just know once I a s . F got to thct placa, it was the one I went back to. f i g l,, O IIow did ycu kacw it was the right picce every j timo? On 20 ! A Nea you find e place, once somebcdy shcws you on
,i
., ,g ,' anything, you 'nva to be probably pretty stupid not to be able
.g { to go back to 'ma came place and check it. I was shown the
.g. { place, sir.
N, i Q Your :sstimony is Mr. Kananen put his finger on one
.l n .' point; is that u: tat ta did?
., 6 A I didn't cay Mr. Kananen at all.
2 l i Q Who d.d? i 17 4 A I sa:.d it us.1 one of the GC inspectors, but I l
,0 h, 4
,w q,
" had told him - had poin :ed to the place and for Mr.
\
l c
, .; Parla, for him :o feel it.
_J, , s" '
,l Q Ia vaan'E Mr. X,1nanen, it was somebody aise, then?
1 A N:11 I told Mr. Kananan, tee, that it wasn't l Aa the tRJ20, fo:: h;.! t to clieck it, and he said, you knew, you k don't una you3 ffnger, ycu haven't got a calibrutad finger, O and all :his "c' knc.,
. ,t .
E00RORENat
ar14 2869 1 Q I want i:o k;1ou $tho it was who put their finger on O 2 g thic point on tid.a place, :.daintified the roughness. Can you 3:O remamber who it vas? l , 4 A I can't. rcm1rhoe, cir. 3 i, O It cor.1d be any of several people? 3fni A Yean, but 7 toch it to both of them, tho CC iI yf inspectors, u.d tcld then to do the same check, which apparentl y I 3; it didn' t nake any diffe: ence or something to them. ah:. 0 Enat did you cay when you too'c it? Did you say chould I two thic roughnaco patch on the plato? Ia that right?
- 1) ]l 1
u 'I Did yoti ach the:1 wheth-r a iu wcc right roughness guide to use
;2 I when you took th m to be checked? ,
i I
;;3] A Eo, a.r, I didn't ack them'if this was the o
ia 1 right placa. 7.t was f si::17 apparent that I was concerned g:0 about i.% and if it vaan't the right place -- you know, I j .. ....
;g " didn't point ,to lis plai:s and say thic, I wculd" h6M' the d i
,7 ] card up close to it and go frem the card and that, and they f d
l
- g. could sne which ona I was lecling, and if I was feeling i g tha urong ons,.' mean it would seem logical to me that i
;;) q they'd say the " usen fo:: That is you ara feeling the wrong *
.1 one. They scen :le do this ccuntless timos, and I told them l
.n.o t ,I l
! to ec .t. I ? thor; tra 3 a {uestica that I was on t:10 wrong I' l
, i I
i I
. . cpot, they 323r.: ! hava bre19ht it 'c o my attention. I don't ;
t,
,- rue -- I ' nou r .t t!n p. ace it was supposed to be, mycelf, N .o .
l
. e e e 4 - me ae + eie .
g
I ar15 2970 1 Q hil, thera's a big discrepancy there in what 2 Ycu 2sid and trhet other pecple said, and the other thing 3 ; thet aort of !,cicra me is how do you know thac this wasn't 4 supposed to be nr rough c.s you thought it was? The only v I B iI basis you have frr saying nobody told you what thaca seals l 3 '; ' do, '2ese metal realo, at:d mayba you were expecting something t i 7: to be awfully smcoth wher. .'.t really wasn't supposed to be H is D' real smooth, but the only basic that you have of saying that 9 it was supr.oe2d .o be cmco A is a point on thic chart or
!) this plate, r
ij , A Thia aetal pla.ta, yes, sir. ti and 14 !;.: 1 i o l
=;
2.0 sw s I o 10 s OD , 20 ' x [.2 . i i
~
"q.i
~. ;
(
'k .*
="
O ~ i P00R 3RIGNAL i, i 1
l. y I 2871 Sdavid 1 l{ Q Chey, and it ectid be that maybe you raiaidentified da'r:.d1 - the pein t h 2.: they art talking about and you'ra talking c 2ie. 3 - a% cut two dittarint poini:c 21c me A I don ' t thin't ti q's. my way that's possible. 3 ,: A3 ::'.any times az I enked different people and went over it, IL I dcn' think tharc'n any poccibl. way there could have been v,
- ' b a mi::up it which point on the card that the cr.cothness was d
v .
.1 stpposed to be. '
d Jfn Q D:..d t' icy over tell you Stthis ocal wac supposed f 1 4 i
'Q c to 1cuh?
- 1 A Well, I found t:At out later,tha9. -- phen I I 6
- - in1hed te Mr. 7 utor. !.
t
- 3 0 'kull yen have 2ecn less concernou about it leak?
'. if you krzw it J1c t.ucocccd to !
i yJ A Uc, Lr, no t ccally baccuse -- ceo - ji Q Wall - go ahasd. J. Chaf. My mole idr.1 is if you've got l
~
specificaticas t scra's a reason Jor thoce spccific 2tions, a! and you should-follcu th2 arecifications. If they could , 9 ,
- p cay it'a goic t) leak, fire. !
c: Dr 12 tha,1c21 in verso than it - what it's a
.1 supr oced to *:e . Lt's .::ing to 1cch more than what l' c's l*
, aupt.0 cad to ::. 3.rd !! it (coan't make any differance, uhy vas ?.ny s wif- r.icn Jin 2 in the first placa?
0 Hu' J yut hac ! t;vr2 wars any sp2cifi.:stionc? l
t l l 2872
. b david 2 -
l A I wa 3 told a the tirae that -- that they was n . suppocod to bc : hat smooth. 3 0 Isn' it a fac : the only basic yoa havo for
.1
+' i aaying ther:s'a 1pecific sti:no in the little plate on this t ;
e t + s ! metal siteet -- :his natal guide that -- but you had no i
.i . ,
basis other than that for knowing what the epocifications
- 7. were?
'I A do, tir. 'At that tine they would bo -- there
]
E l wasn't a way o'? rreasuriag the smoothnecc of the card q ,
%' '. unlass you had scmathing 'vhere you compara then at the t l
i i 11 j same time, I
- l. '
T .". I w.enn, you just can't fill the thing in unless
- t. .
T you have so.r.eth .r.g tc cupare it with, unicas it's one -- l' j i t, quite a bit dil forenca so you can tall. !, I
; In ouhcr words, you have to have it close where l I
. 1 P you can check Meh en<:e in awhile. ;
i g Q Ce t:m up '.ro .tr casa hora, you'::o caying that
)
13 since thic ;taca't at m eth as your guide tht was given to , g you, you" o cart. ming thit the thing was going to leak more , i 1
,7 than it uac sugyoced to and tha result is that it'was 1 i
a
, going to be dati.iercen.
t j ;p, , i.e :.act wh it y u -- is that what you ir.cgined at w the cim$ a W r. . s wha: C 21Jured it wetid probabl7 ba
.t da:r.p.c:suc b 2urela r_t. hnc 1 -- you b cw -- radic.tions, in tha P00 Roll 810L
t 4 14
!! 2373 a
david 3 I : var e: -- jou %.1:w -- it would be radiations - you know -- ( , bu t. -- 0 Thor didn;: :9.11 you how many redistiona in the Q i water. thoutTh, li.! thay? i i J A dc. They li:!n ' t . I figured it van pretty much 3~ haing in the m ccor It was only -- but -- I figured it ! , 1 7 could poscibly be a danger -- you know -- I didn't know how
- i bad, buc diat I've hoon trying to get at -- that in numerouc 9 .71n: 2: t".1 th :: vih th<3 plant, they keep changing specifications! 1 er not foi..".cgi . ; uhe apacifications, and if you're going I
- l tc builf an c: nic pl nt, it should be built right. ;
I
., I ~.2an -- yoa know -- if you had very stringent i l
. thf ng. s 1. 2 J:3.i.,i -- all the c.roceduros -- I think that's
. .t i
l' the same pr:S12 a wo';e. hr. 7ing at Marble IIill. 0 ' c t '1 leav2 tlnt to the peopic who -- Ict'c stick t to the c:cmnr. tion, th mgh, shall we? l i cc e, then, I lalieve you also said today that you : ' i u ;
, rej sebad quic: s fcw of thaca things simply on the basis ;
- cf 2cratchc : la that crrect, that you rojected them ;
. l
- r. and said -- l re,: retchan, I caid I don't know how many !
y ?. t
, tcc uco I ::21../ .rar 't f nvolved in the cea's toc much befers. ,
;. Tcen ! s'.. W.l' .':mpnad it I would chech on!.y a f2w of them,
~
- ut -- ,a - m j ut t -- ycu know -- c.haned ep ---
7C1. 2307
- . ' ' m L:> rz.ny ';hers -- there wec a fan l
P00RDlElNAL l l
....~,:
i 4 l 2874 dr.vid4 1[ with scrr.tches. But they wasn't rejected. They was i I O c1 caned up. Chere war on.~.y one rejected. l. O !: 0 '/cc. help 2d cican these up by filing the burr i 4hr off of them. ' hat's the caly thing you have to do with I (' . o j< the scratches, the scrathing inspection? i 1 01 A fer, sir. I 7 l"l Q Ic trat all yorr bcsis for saying it should be ,
- i. I i
a! , rejected -- it'r the basic of this comparator test; is that h
- s H correct?
4 i? oi A And possibly cr.o of the rembers b:cught up -- d
!? O' it was filed. It would probably laa.t more too..
i l Mh C l'un you were . net aware of anything -- any scratches l I
- 3 ' or nicke other ihan this cne which shouldn't have passed, 1
. 1
- 4 but ycu do belir ve -- it d s ycur testimony tact about half --
I i
- Ih at least h2L? -- and 3ot ;ay you didn't -- you gava up doing il
- 3 :.;
thin thing becarss no mrn' cf tham were bad? - A rw, ~.:alf was donc and checked -- you know --
;7 !}
a j
;3 4 so I had to :1c arate way of saying how many -- you know --
r
;;j so it's just -- all those over --
l
;.c C You said hefere you got through with the job you
'l i
p ,-- {t quit doing i.t h:2use all of thea were bad; is that -- 4 3q A f dida't scy g ve up completely. I ca'd I i I s got ding ut.d, 2nu I : ~.il: go back, you know, becauso it eraa nuil;. " h,. i.hsri 2c- r.s . l q , G ,, Int; - yo a kr ot -- I was renuioni_:g right along -- ! 2
- P00R 3R M L ;
o - .
. .. . -- . . ~ .. .
2875 avid 5
- you know -- that the ;cala did not mact thic card --
o 1
~j you know -- au many tinaa as I brought that up -- I noticed 0II Somebody
! they was using the wrong plates on the cards.
4 !
; sure there told me.
- 50) .
I I mean, I was upcot about it. 1 0 I kno>i you unre upnat, but I don't know if you I were necessarily upeet about something they had told you
)
3 J i about. t
'd Now, what'o the -- I'm otill not clcar about this th
'Q l busincos. You s:.ty ycu cort of gavo up inspecting
'j ii j- them becauce tho'/ voro all bad. In that --
.., :f
[ A I didn't giro up. They were still inapectod. I O '3 :llI eti11 suae -- Yeu anew -- before I ween'e che=*i,e every j ,f
'l asal, you know.
O O Lr. We waa switching around. I just stopped checking l '.,
'"i , overy sual becauna it didn't make any difference if it it
$a- l:! uas too rough or not.
4, 3 It was utill ghacked for scratch and dents and g , i "J 0 catuff like that, sir. 1 D 'l 0 Yes, .1011, okay. You still checked for that. You W ' said they wors all bad and then they inspected them all and Z'- put bham back on the m chiae. ; J, A I enn't ponsibly any they were all bcd .iecause ; I didn't check all cf dem. Put uho ones I chockad woro j rougher than the carta cir,
' j
2876
, , david 6 I Q Can ycu tell ma how many again you think you i :
'/- 2 checked, roughly? O' A Well, I -- 4 0 You said abcut half of them? Il j', A No. Maybe 25 percent. Maybe a little more, b C g I don't know -- you knew, l 1 I just -- ycu know -- if -- you know -- I know 7l i 3 if there was any scratches; they van going to do something l 1 I 9! about it, but as far ac roughness, they was all just about l V l 10 j the same, so it d.idn' t make any difference. Ycu xnow.
'a 1i 9 I would imagine if one was real rough like 1 12 II somebody mencioned something about if the lathe really got it.
i
- 2 l Thatwould have been detected, and -- you know -- by whoever e
(~'/)
;.,' i, checked it.
t g ,:d I So anytime ,on had comething that's not run in N ;i the same way -- you knew - ~ comething that's not -- if there's! ! t, 4 a big difference, it wcu].d have haen picked up.
;7 d
73 4'. So I cidn't ft.al the fact that I went and checked 1 ma i cach one personally was going to make anv differenca at all i c i
;3 'j as to quality because .f they ucra going to put them in, j h t
' i
- -j what difference *,.ould _t nr.ke if I kneu every one was rougher a i n '
n 4 than what the gudde was.
~~ ij ;
ce At uhr.-. tims I could uce the guida. Or juct l g <; , i part of than wac. So .ong as there wasn't no serious -- i tY _.. .vou know -- crcticmo a: th t -- cerious oroblems. Scratches
2877 david 7 I or something like that. l O 2[ Q Wac this rmighnass sort of grainineas when I l C[ you put your finger in and rubbed it around? Uers there l' 4[ ridges or was there a aort of graininess? Ecw did it feel? g J -A It was ridgus; like any tina you use a lauho, l 3! you go down to a point - ,you knew - if ycu have a circle } 7' turning and you go doun, you have a ridge going all the way Si . down. I 3I You have a continuous type of thing. f h 0 These were -idga marks, then, from the lathe? Dl 11 i A I wou?.d imagine that's what it was. I would have i 12 ' to run my finger aroun.1 :c raka cure exactly, but they were t { circular type thing. 13l8 1.; O So it was circular grcoves around -- iS ' A Around the ceal, yes. l'ii O I see. All r!. gat. Thank you. H f
. 7 (Boar 1 conf ar.:iag.)
i! 13 j CTG 2ELN SE233CIFE2: I believe that's all the ; a : i a
;3 l1I quastions the board ha-3 at this tir.e. .
t 20i Ma. Xosik? I' 2; , OR'.1SS ON BOARD ZXAMINATION h I i 22 ;; .aY MS .. DS:JR i l 1 :
' ' l l ;, ; Q Wera jou cc a millwridht trainad to uro a
. t 4
, f,1 ,
Cc.T.pC.rator -- a JOr.pCatOr.' t ( .
. A . 3.3 p "" 11.n k ItuCI. tIIAin nha 2E'u jr3'. i 3 2 1 k h 013.I a
e P00R OR M AL . r v -
2878 e david 8 ' I have been familiar 4tth the compara or before. 2 MR. 312NNER: ! r. Chn.'.rman, that question has i D f i been asked and aasverei I doni kncv how neny ti=ca 4i + over the courre of this tc.;timony. I move it be stricken on that hasis. And I think we ought to -- we're [ j 4 6 I' ' [ so far along now, I think ve really ought to mnko a l 7 very serious effort te keep these only to new questions and B answers. n' d CHAITd4AU BIOHHCSFI;2: I think that one is correct; i M! ! it has been asksd and answered before. So lot's strike that. U l- 5*! M3. Y.OSIK:
, I2 lI Q What parec*tage of the time was Mr. Kananen I
Cj present at the i.aspecticn? i
,<f i- A Well, he did 19 out of 137. I don't know what i
3! percant that is. Not tco much. I'3 j Q Uan Nr. Parla t.hert.: for the rt.mainder cf the , y . U fi inspection of tha rentisdcr of the rodo? !
; I Adn A YOS.
- i. I 10 ' Q Did you ever chcarvo ;'r. Kananen insp2ct seals ,
i ! 7llll with -- by the use of the compar:. tor? l
! {
1 a i 07 ' A I dida't perscrally cbserve it. It's pcssible he l' I could have. '
- n ! ,
73 ,[ . Q Did you o.*xarvc him inspecting a scal?
- H A I nciar caterw.d him chsching tha rae.1, no, sir -- i d I mean, no, T.c'n. : can' cay as didn't,'ont I didn't s
P00P?"l%L
2 2879 david 9 1 see hLa. 2j Q. How uout R . Parla, did you ever observe n i e 3[ Mr. Parla inspac: a seal by using t. comparator?
~
I' a[ A Ho, I didn 8 t.
?!
3 f' O Uas it only then the.millwirght crew that<1d the I 3 inspection of th3 scalc? t i A Well, we was dcing it -- you knew -- I can't 3 - say at what time becarse tho majority of the tir,a we were i , D 3p just going by -- I car.'t ray how many times I locked at l l I d g it, but the mejerity cf the time I would say the mi11 wrights, ,
'J I l.
yeah. 3( 0 Did ysu in your inspection of the seals ever il bserve any dirt or grit en the face of the seals?
"3 li I l
; ,, h MR. ER2m12F : Objection. Mr. Chairran. I asked ,
d, ! 3 j several questicr.s alorg that lin, including that specific 1 l
' 1
' l
...i qttestion. I
. :) d if AskeC and casucred.
u d I
., 3] (Benid confarring.)
4- h C3AII?.AN B"CEHOEFS2: Yes, that's c statement,
.. 9 5; 0 I think, that w:o askcd.
3 ..!
,., 'i l'S. I OSIR: I have no more questions.
e t
,,,. CHAIIRIG TT:CUHCEFER: Mr. Emile? l
.+ q; ,
i F2.. I.E7.a2 : [*. h 170 OCthing flirther. . C311III;J1 il:0 IID3?I:2: Or. Fankhncscr. i f - , an. rr=ma: cas. i
- P00R ORSINil ;
i l *
. - w >
2880 david 10 1 B*l MR 3RENUSR:
- 2. Q Mr. ft.rtin, did you --
O, CHAIRI'AN 2ECIDIO2F3R: Dr. Fankla2cer. L 4 DR. F11!!G3AU3ER: Just a few questions. 3 BY DR. FMK"AUSIn: 3 Q There in sone confusicn now about the nature of 7 the imperfectiona in t::e soal. tre've heard -- would hou l 9 tell un the varicus t7 pas of imperfections thatyca 2cund 9 and tha maneuver 1 that wara made to remcVe those imporfections2 go ' MR. C MDIEn: ':Te object to that, your Honor. That .i y area has been corered all :ver the place. To describe the
. g whole process ov:c again I think is totally imprcpor at this
> ,w e point. y I UR. F.WKHAU3ER: If I may -- if I may explain. i 1,, The reason is th1t dering Mr. Hoopor's questiening, I think g the impression nuy hava bsen left that the only time that filing was done tas whan there were burrs on the edge of the 37 U"'"1
- 13 {
gg If tant were the case -- and I think tha rest -- g we needn't be a: concerned as if files were used en the
,, .. h. . fcco uf the coal. I thiah we need to get that perfectly
-3 ,
. , , , elea:. !
Er. Chairnan e gf El I ?E7dC1 : I vac going to ack }
! l
.4 ,
protty much thosa gunsticr4 oncept I think Mr. Conner's
,,., h cbjecticn is c:.:::n:h bec:,uso it was a very generally !
a, t
)
=$ 4
~
,w , ~nem..,, -,,.,,,w. - ..
2881 1 avdd11 described proc.ani. hr.1 I think Dr. Fankhaucer can ask npecific quoctials for ,socrific answers. 3 C"AI.1DJJ EE H203?D: I thi:1 tint: a correct. 4 Why d:n't yot * - ti.a a mc:e spec:ific. Mhy f.ca't fou ask him a the 3irect que.st '.c:- ti? at :l:n just nmitianud. 1 J' Sr 3?., 7Ar;n:LYJS OR: 7 9 Hera dere an7 in: perfections in tha faca of the a seal rc-quiring y ou to ~2ss 2 file across the face of the D seal? D A Yan. Sir. 11 DR. 2.iN."dIAU 3ER: No further questions. l"' C2.'t!.T. '.AH FA' :UIC3FER: Pa. Brenner. 10 117 .D , 3?.En GR: O !!- . J. tr t i n 4, did I hear you state that the filing O process to ramon the '.netrfactions was very quick and therafore yon cof.dn't tas;;ify how much of this was done by Uf .athcr a.111 wright 17 D A Ycah, It v m juct .like a small burr -- you know-- l mI tith a file it .i m't tak 2 1cng to take a cua11 burr off or
'O
,. something.
.v l 7
; Q Uact ;ird el ma:erial are we talking about? What "r i.
ver tha ren?. m ;de cu : of?
* ?ai .
i A :: S r 't kro 7. ichody told me. I have no reason i
- I o i l
3 j-l
- o :ncu. 4
' r i
u O . :.1 : wht. H015. it. Sa que tien haa bacn answered. l 4 P00RORIBln
2882 david.L2 I There has baen tantimony that it's made out of - 2 sta!nlest steel; vould you have any reason to diopute that S 33. sed on yocr oh3crvation7 4 A 14 0 , s i.r . 5 O c ccin!. ass steel is a fairly hard natal, is it 3 act? 7 A Yac, sir. 3 0 so if I can fiI e an inpe2fisction rather quickly 9 off attinleua stael, .ca'rc only talking about come to 80ri; of vri slight btrr?
- q P. That's what I cay, aslight burr. Very slight.
O Q Jnd these -- it was these burrs that you felt c did not match tha ecniarator in terms of - 14 A :s o, sir. Lo, cir, the roughness of the sea 3 had 75 nothing to io wit'.1 che hu::rs. It was just the roughness of 16 the seal ccT.per.td to the comparator. 37 Q S > cftar t!e burrs were filed off, you sti13 felt gg l it vac rough cc:. pared to t.ho ocmparator?
?
;g ! >
A I'm talking abcut enes that was never even filed. 29 j Yott: svorago p34 tas, you 1.now, started out rougher, even I : e4
! if they didn't 1. ave nr burrs en them.
i 4
.c. s.F .1
- n U dn't lave nothing tc do with filing.
d
;- :L I PIKI21 : Chay. Ito further que2iens. !
,:. . i . .T.IrdM 3'CEEEitR: Mr. Conner. ;
. ~ , ,
. f A Hi310.: D. : get ::rt turn ncw?
13 2883 david:.3 I C7A3 E.1 EE HIICIFER: Yes. O V 4
!!.'.. C Nd2n: Ot.: of order.
6 3 H.? liR. CC1513R: 4 Q It!. Mtrtin, it is not clear when this filing that 5 you'::a tr.lki.ng a.:out tns done. 3 in it yctr cesti:rony that this was done as te 7 varicus reda 9/n a e:ccminsd, or were they donc come time later? ( 0 ,:l. A as thmy ;:eza ere. mined.
'f 0 l.,
Q And : u tol". ycu to - did you use a file? I
?0 l.. A '?as , sir.
I 11li 0 %m :31d 7: 3 to uce a file? 12IIb A f br: 3 no idea. 13 ! O Md au jn:t d.c it on your own? t 14y a ar .tir. I
;5[ I tr 2, idle CC percen was standing there. If f
is!a I t,::*n ' t cu~;7c r e i to be uCng a file, I believo he'd say, H g ;! *Pait a Ic.in n :re . ' 3cc: usa no ucu.ld watch me do it. v li Q "ri, say it agt.in: what were your instructions 03 h. ; .+ e
- n i whea you rcn it oking at the facs of the seal Vner. you t
so saw the at:n tch or e m ethfng. F.aat unze you supposed to i'
, 3: 1 do then?
1 A :' na: cup;rsed to ell th$ QC per:cn. I would 53, 9l
. t
;-;j inn.Jima dai. 's hx.*c i he -- he'd say file the::1. Liko I :
i I 2 '>- S av. , .01" :C . L 0 W o. 2 i , Cu Wrs # 00 nt the3
~
l
.t _t eo tm ._, , , zoe. at -
,h_.
w. P00ROMNAL t I
l 2884 * ; david 14 1* Md 11P.e th) ons guy -- he'd reject it and i 2l dier we 'd file 1 : and possibly more -- I don't know how . 3 many. 4 O Mhere did you gst your file to do this? f , A 2*m a mil 1Ncight. I got files in my box. 3 Q 'st n n't a file that anybody issued? 7 A Ho. 0 0 rid t ny tell you the type of file 'd use?
- t Ol A 't. o .
10 0 ~ihat 't.indof file did you use? 1; a J. iii. tie raill file, you know. 10 < Q i.'n sorry? 13 A A nill file. I
%.3 1 0 'that roughnnss?
15 A Uh?
, ;;; l 0 Yani; roug'u. css?
. How do you describe the size L
;j of die --
ic A A mi'.1
. fil..
- 7.aat's hcw I describa it.
to ! O A cir.glo size - - i !
=[ o h You renn hou long was it?
i 33 y n mi'.1
. file is a mill file. It's a vary il
+>
' fin 3 fi';, 3 .
.o.
3 l r; p G all ..ight, Jat that's the nr.ma. That describes 4 i
.c . ,
onl*.' Onu ge 'm2 .r whiavor 'rou call it?
, 'h.: c ra 10e :::.cu c:nts than on a mill file? ;
2885 david 15 1
, A I - rou co tid probably get into came measurements
( l 3d you *2ad on t .a e uter, one, but there is very fine mill file. U 3 'j You .mou. I?: vnan't na ro':gh file. It was a very fine 4ii file, f; O 1;nu could ii -- the fece of cno of thece files I I d" ct:mp.tre ta ore o.: ths :hings on the comparctor, for example? A Mc11 the filo I unod, it was rougher than the Il JP con.paratnr, b n not all : hat :w.ch. G[ Q ?.11.:I thaca things on a comparator? I 10p A All? You :: 3an '-- I didn't compare it with the 1j i cc Marstor. Tht:'s whit I said before. You can take one J;., . cpecific point - you know -- and another ene. But unless I 13 J I ws I:amining . hat :f t.la
- gainst a comparator, I'd have
-la j no way of bac.ci.ag this -- you know -- it was a long time ago.
;g Q 11 0 yo: knc : whether it was 62 -- 63 or 33 or 5007 i
g[ A I h w a no iloa. g !. Q .:nu , n'ted. in responsa to Dr. Hooper's questien e 73 i! that you ecw.6a': rc:as.aber -- I think it was D.: Hooper -- d what the face a! the c sparator looked like.
;;j {}I l
.i 3 l{ Sct :lis r.n:nin; in response to my questions you 1
+.
- j. aaic. ycu hed u:n 1 a es: spar 7. tor -- I understcod -- frequently 1
f
= in jchs ;rio: .:o ;; inn.o r.
. A :.5s . :ir. ,
. , l
.. i 0 :. : ' : r: cc::: sat? i 0 ..
=; 2 - =i=-
t k ]$, g g i g g q _ t
I i t
! 2886 I
vid16 ) Q ud with all tnute: perience you don't know what V 3i a ccuparchar icoks 1:.ht? 3' A Tt2 c:mparator they had was different than what 4 I've hat uitt. ec parat:rs f hat was round. I've had them -- Sl . see, it's a picc cf uttal. It's got different degrees of S }, roug'r.near cn it. 4 7j Ih 64f.'a natter.. You .'cnow. The dosign is l Jt ccmplat%.y dilf: rent. I m:an, you could have two -- you i ai could have two is grece of roughness or 40 or 50. You know. I 10l Ccmptrator: tre r.ot clike. You know. nj i You u.a, you dsrcribe a house and than describe
- n. the I:c'pire Ghat Suilding. Inescence, you know, it could 33 b2 connacuad, but just bcecuse it's comparative doesn't i
j, uct.n it'c goinu 23 look like the one they have.
;g [ 0 ItL 'jor J.cn't remember that.
JC i Dea't all cem_:srators Scys the sama roughnses
. ,. p I.: indiar. tors c.n +..htn?
'!D ! A T: h pan.ds cn wLat you want to compare it against.
i ec Fil Y:n ::ncu c if 7ct. ecs. pare it against something that's -- in r v, ! no cass uccle *:.t; compa.rnt:r- von had would evsr be
.m. j
.! involvef. uith ::n ethiar tht.t's smooth or rough. You wouldn't
,e have te '..mte :htc canv star.s on it.
~ it !
m I :xt . , c.rybet.'y who makes a comparator don't l nahe c m er e:1, 21C:". !.
, ( .C' Z ght. 3:.0 I. E.C D2 ** i
= P' <
oTad~1tZil?Arhad gggg
2887 (2vid .7 ' 1', you caid, comathitg abc.it teo lines. What would the two
- I 2 lines mean as you used ther. on the comparator you used at 3 01.Tatr?
4 Q Winat ut) you nean, what two lines? ed15 Sl G juL fis. 7 t 9 ,l l lC I 11l n O = 14 I fB 76 .
' '/
,?C 10 20
! 31 i i I :l MR oggyg,, l . 1 a-w- , v- e, ne --
I CG h ach : 4 Oli ! 288a 1' n 'Jhs.u 's whe': you said. You said -
'q fois ,,
v devid 2 T I i:.h.'.nk -- I -- that'a the reascn I said, you 915 3 :cw,f, .:. int u..s a 1:ng time ago, but I thought they was 4 twa linou of ' ::, you know, they was, you know, individual i 3i . th).nge On 'cs, but I thcaght tF.ey van bro. I'd say at
.L 2 , the ti= I wu "t sure of that, but I know that I was feeling 7! ,
the ri'Jht pein :, y:n kno ; 'caurie at that time, you know, 43 [ it wac ery irrecrtant to me. 9 ,' I di2n't kicw '.t was going to be important for
!0 .
me to coll ycu uhich spo : on the comparator that I used a 3 i1 yea 230 vcsy ,fou know. i 12 ' O. 'Sh : i were tuo lines, and on thic plater as 1 12 ( Dr. Ho:per cal..cd it, D:.a they each have a degree of rc.ighne ss? 14 l 15 t it. Lic . hoy was severri -- what I'm talking about . 1 i i 15 .) is, you know, ~.ike maybo five in ono line, and five in l
- i l l
- 7 i arnths: 7.in e , sut, nue. 7 could be confusing this o
.)
'e o ccaparator wi:1 a co.1parator I'vo used befera, you know. !
u t
, l t
, '?
! I - I know Ph ) point I :ns feeling .7az right, but I i
20 .; can't dancrib:2 cxactly w'lat that comparator -- if that i a !
- i. ; j i
us. :.1 th3 only e mpara :or l'd ever seen, I could probably - , t 2
. .; ts11 y:: mers-that J.: Ic had lika, but I've seen 'on befera f
2nd thrt t.11 an't .he Jaco.
;, C. 211 *J.ght, w:.s this - the ons ycu '.; era 1 coking
._,, st, pr u r .bli cs one 'r.,u usr2 10ching at prsonably said
o p i 4 2889 2 jwb ' I i "63" on f.t. .. : bhat correct? l O . e. L " ?c) i . ' t :cnow what it said. I just know that I
\
1 1 3 wa1 t2ing is: rert e. poi it. I can't remember if it had
! l
'l neahera or not, If that was what it was, it probably had S, atunberc , 21:t ': d'on't know. I can't remamber if it had U
3 nu::Lora , h 7y O. Eavo you e'er acen a comparator without numbers? 3 .4 E Mom. of 'ari'a got numbers. Like I said, you 0 .I know, ynu uso emething, you know, for a specific reason, d ana .if it happ ned - you kncu, like I said, a lot of 10] I 1 ccTpara!. orc *t. c I'ra econ mey have been five years ago. i 1 ,I 12 I :ar't ru.vm i r if ; hey had numbers. I maan, if a l i
.3 i pe exn - :;ou : now, nnle90 cemething really is -- for i
. .J ac:aa rr.act y. real .y want to remember cemothing, or f
I 5 Li scr.cthing cta:F.a out in four mind, you ain't gonna remember
.- st :ff mer leur periodo of tims, I mean, something i i '
./ inuignificent .f at .athing had a ntnbar or not. I know I
;a 'il wuc pointing - I w a fe aling the right cpot. .'
;0j .,
0 Chr." Well, no1, the comparators that you were { M talkiig nbr.:S at Zimer '.n reaponse to questions, I t' '- 5 1 1
.u ycu cam, rar frora vrf incoth, liko 2 or 4, something !
u liio :.u.t, up :erhap; to 500. Is thct rceghly your memory? ,
,l.
L . 1 ;4't r.ve ao indication of what they ran to. l I thir': th . .: ..
.c c:0 od .four witnesses. But all I know is l th it vlu ici. . that -t.sy naif was cuppocad to be, the seal P00R BRIG!NAL
i l l 15-3 jwb 2890 ] I 1 l tras suppened s:o he that sucoth c.nd it wasn't. I don't s, s
- ll9 hew what ct!.cou mesc : hey started at, or where they ended, 3: out I haow the mint . hat I was using, and rapeacedly was f,.
. 1;
^ II showing ugle, you h ow, that the sealc was rougher than j n
thwt. l o f Okay, on thi.c c:mparator ycu used at Zimmar, then, i N+l , 3 I ; I tho.;3 v.R n dillcreet n',In cr for -- a different square for i l. OH each degraa of to'.tghn 3sa . I3 that it? l
.s '.. ,
;' A I wo 2 .d ircyinc. I was pratty surs they uas n
*p .
squr 2s, but 1.1 may have been a circle, but they as
'I j roughncca en t'l are, aid y:n could feel the differance in
, i:
! the rcu';hanso.,
)
0 '2her; was cae for each degret of roughnsas?
!!3 [ I And t*:/ ti r. ':cv ,roa determined the spot?
i [f, 3. !!a, I wac c rowr the spot. I can't remcmber who d' . ' told me, W2 is somebady'd chewed me tha wreng spot -- was i.
<[ I e.csc trying t: bring oat beforo -- I again and again n
3 l' was asking tjeepi.e, aai shewing 'cm where I was pointing to. i Yon kr.cw, if I rac peinting in the wrcng placo, comebcdy . 2 p say, "Ecy, mee, no -- no reason you're having problems,
?ct. 'r 3 in the a ong :lacc,"
2 > r p.rcutlf who told me in the first place 'vas ri;he, h a r.to it up3Au ra quita a bit. O. 3* 101 O C.'.7 that enO OK" d ra that Sirid "63" en iti Y W I i
o d i' 16-4 jub tj 2891 l I, ii. I OW t :mov what it said, sir. o 1iR. : 03ILE: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if we could t l 3 move s...ang pt-. the tenparator. It see.:ns lika a lot of j 4 t'tw Tiesi.13.'./.; have b.nca asked and answered quite a few I 3 timr - e4 6.
! HE ., 1C12122 - I'll object to Mr. Heile interrupting I my tr:hly er : c-e:uainnien.
0 MR. 'LILE: an.3 I'll object on the basis the s 9, ques :icn 's ba n aske 1 an 1 answered. ; i9j t.R. PJNN2R1 .bd it has been answered again. 1
- I f.' LIT..:: 3G.N D':CIE;ETER: Objection overruled. I '
l'd th h'll: thu quo r: ion h13 huon anEwered. l
, 1 12 l BY 'L . CCIITE3: I W' O. Nr. :crtin. isn't it a fact that on the cociparator 13 that yn tced A ::it.ner, there are four different spaces for f
I~ ' ,l caan dr;rc= of rou;h:. teas. depending on the type of rnachine,
- 7 or the.". hr *;a ,u, th.4t was d.onc, and that each of thoco 7 wculd ra.ilecu liff tr m: :urfaces? Isn't that correct? I l
. n. I Q ) l' t :t. 2w . All I know, I was on ena point, ;
. J .1 '
I'
. 3 l ar.d I was tcL1 this )oint, and repeatedly asked people.
If thcro was ? >r cen a re uen a differenco of opinion, why w:nlan ' d. c =a' r.ly ta '.1 m W l
. :, .x m , I ma, ycn know, repeatsely csf:cd people this. Ic r. ci- !, if :c:aal cdy hr.d any knowl:dge -- if .
9 s 4. . e== -e useh er e b6 e/ 4 4 mm . 4 [ P00R ORM
i 5 '16-5 jwb , 28S2 I to ute that etapararr r, and it's useless anyway.
*- Q. l' tt cught cu testified you had used ccmparators 3I before ~~
4, A. I hti ust3 cen arators.
.p Rii Q, --
zu d kaw hoe to use them. ft GL A. Comprod f.~.om ncher thing to another, right.
- b. ,
7 l, That's tshat I ras deiny. And if what you say is four things s. 0 for diff t.rnnt t tuff, yc.u knew, that's fino. But if I was e 9 pointing to th crong placs, nobody at the place that knew a
'O o hoa to use it aither, tl.en. If nobody know how to use P
?
[ it. it tmsn't t ced ard it should be checked. i! 12}; . Q. tall, than, you wouldn't know hcw to use it i-13 abcort : cmobod3 to11:1ng you: This is the little cpace you o 14 4 hata tc usa. I i i 15; 243. 2 EIDMM: Objcction. That mischaractorizes
- s ,
hic tactimony, 'ho ur uld.".' t knew how to use it. 1
.: Z:E ! ITIC.3'? : I wculdn't know how to use it?
- . 0 Ma.1 LD!G;: TT2it.
ii a !) eIIL 1 RETITII: Mtually, Mr. Chair"lan, I have a i 20j dilferrant obju l.icn. Rather than mischaracterizing it, 0, 2.1 I ' it's been nah:( and anzwx ad. [ f 2 MR. ' ^ETE3 : I think the raccrd reflect'; the
- u. wi = cau ::ac r.: t knw het - to uca the ecmparater without i n' e d u c t e r. :: i.he,'c te a ":cint we wanted to
~
y ec m . .. P003 DElig ;
)
1
L 15-6.jub 2893 1 '! P EI!CAN BECE3CCFER: Well, I think thet 3 ., h
' id miUcharacterizas the raccrd, from the way I understand it.
.) f a ' t.IL T.aEntCT : I cbject, Mr. Chairnan, on the ei baris that ' he c :Icection 1:ac been asked and answered.
1 5:r sa, co m 2: I'tre alraady withdraun the question. S' . C SIT UN SECEECC7En: Oh, okay. L . 7[ m. COUNER: ALything I can do to speed things up. B Dag hter.) ,
,i l J :.in. .t. 221mrn: I have a suggoction.
iO ZY MI.. CCIDER: ; i 9
.i 0 1 C Okcy, now, Mr. Uitness, you -- wa have i2 r establichef, I think earlier, that this job of incpecting l l
wdL the conteci recs toch approxinctoly cin wee %c. Is that i,
)
M[ correct'> c l j f. : H2. IMCIGTSE2: That questien has been coked and ancircred. Again, I t ou?.a obj .tct to that quoction. 7- [ . i
,7 ,( .11 2 . *CNNER: I'"1 soking him 11' that han been
'n ea1:ablir kca. ,
ti u ;f CnIlMAN BECI:ECCER: objection overruled on that ; to ,v one. That antJo fontaction, I thinh. vi [ M2. I ELDiGF '* hat's a way te cpeed thinga up.
. i 6'
q- CLII }i?.3 Il~ CEE( 372R: 'Sc, but I think that* 3 i fcunda'/ .On for P.hc al.:tt cri.Lt.
\
*.se
- Aw
. a de VM. . M.
% 4A. .L'-ha mys ,,
e O 411 .. i{,Jht f thQ fcundation hGing in ';h*3 r'decrd,
@ l n
P00R D%mg
- . ..~ . . . . v [l f 16-7 jwb ] 2894 4 1I how nany cont:.ul reda did you examine on an averego each h 4J day? 3 L Is h> referrinf to uc? He said " Mister
.k 4! W1ineaa," %tari art wrenal witnesses here.
I 1 5 . D. ':ca :e ~~ 0 CHRI'2 tan DEC3BCEFER: Ycu're the witness at the 7j mecaant. a
.: : 3Y ID., CC!Eisar 1
1 9g G I cr? 21ogi: 1 if that 1othern ycu, Mr. Martin. 9 , 10 a. D.au was your question, cir? l I i n: G Ecw .tany contr>l rede ucra exa:ained on an average ! i 12 i occh dry trhile you uare mpicyad at Birmar?
;3 / A It varied.,
14 j 0 I me c, to 11d there ha more than one a day? i is] :i A Yeah, 3 :-
] (1 Wocid there be 10 a day?
1 r j 1 Nell, see, it' hard to toll. Ycu can divide f 4 q by -- you uni 3 in ves six wneks. I don't knew e:cactly : 10 ; si:: weak:,13 / rode. But new part of them was redone, so l i i yq I would any ciaewhere between 3 and 12 a day, but I do not ,! h ! n
.i know, becanso : hey do v:ry.
n G 3eu long ::uld it take, than, to exarainc one red,
<: te do ell zha Qing" on tha chach sheet indicatad in the 1
-e:chibit 7 u c: i thi.3 morning?
.T. "!ha 7:rio3 very much,- dopending 12 ycu have any P00R MMI.
16-8 jwb 2895 i l probicma whers you hs d tc c1w.p hhe contrcl red $1c.de, and O 2l - serietimec you h ad to repeatad1'I clamp r.hc cartrol red bledc , . s 4 3 and take diff::3at rr.c0 lrce on bho mike in differer.t ' i 4, places. You know, . y at. had no prob 1(.a with cha width, ; 3 ji you know, it dea't tc.ke '"ory loig at all. 3tt if ycu have , r 6ae trouble with rc secta.. cheping, it eculd run into cc'te ; i 7yh tirac . That'n the ret.sen they v.ried from dcy to day how c-t n many you got c,ene. i o t U 9- G New shc,t u.s y;chably the quicheat thtt ycu reca:1 l l !
!O , one ever being cenpl. %E ! l i ! !
11f A. I der.'t kn:w, cir. I don't get pr.id by the job; j i
;2l I get paid b:r t he hot r, to I 1: nan't con 11y ti:ning it. ,
i I ()
,, ,. 1
- 3 : Q. Woul: :.v. rht ca herr? l l
t
'a[r It. Per ens 51 de? I don't know; pesci.bly. i i
m Bat .Y'd cr Sor. d got four blades in en Pr.ur if ; 16 . von didn ' t have '..o prot :.t oc rith 'cm, casil./ I'd cc.y vou I I i
;! could do 'ar in a ha"? !n.ur, if ycu didn: hrere 1.o p cbir.r.: {
,, whatsocvor wit!. % e ;1c ning.
9i 0. Okay, thz c re you cr.re of ar.y ir.str.U;co chere i i I
! 1 w q o
Mr. Parla would ba. c:.tlit:e nr r. king a cigural:tc for a half :.
, t hour or lenger?
.w . .. x - ; .: w .
-....u,_.
~
.. ? . - . .......:
..,.. .. o
., , ,2 .. .. ..
( . . ,
... . .t . . .. t.s .. n. . : ,3. . . .
i ccuchedy. Th'..i_ -.a tha .m.
"' A..c a E107:e .. icu ' .ncs ,
. I. don't i
x iriow what ho .3 fa: .; r .. :h Sr a. wc:n': I t :!v.ra, 20 s
,n..
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i.
, . , . # . ,.a ,
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1-i 16-9 jwb 2896 1
; smoke. I knew " hen h3 cc?.c back, you knew, that -- I kncy ,
I
.1
#- that he'd <fo ou , and we:. culd go get him, n d to21 him . . I i
J 3 .' what wac rircng 'li"h ccm.e ~.)ladoc, and he wculd write 'on - i I t 1 3 j) down, and then 're' d p :t ' " in ' .ha holo. .
.. i f 17^.w I don % k:cs 'i. hat ' che man was Scing out there ,
3d l l 1 t, ,i , but I do know ho var.'t th.tre, and wa d go get him when i l i 1
.i I we uns done with th? ?.n ::p 2ction . i 7 d[.i .
1 3 G Ucil., uhy d1&i': vou eust put it in the holo,. - i - i
- l. .
l 3 , without talking to hi"17 i p !
;0 b! A Bec:.u.:e he faa n:. reacd to writo dot:n t'n stuff. -
l'
!! i li 1 0 .v. .S ; lat tru alt? r h
a !
.' '; ( A Mall, I doa 't her uhut hia functicn was .mpposed !
t nj , to be. I hacu ' 7h ar. h 3 nrr. 3 cu :sf.50, cnd like I raide this l I h 1.4 j wasn't, you knc', you be' , in the msjority of tha cases, j i tt e. is /e but in semo caa r , yc1 i:n a, ha: S be cut talking to Ocme-r I. t,
- a , body, but he rx:.117 wa.c 2' 1 su';psed to bc doiag incuaction, i
.. t t 7 't and if ther: t7u any Jr 21c.mc , "a 'd got him, If there E
s
. .. L, uacn't no a.rchi ma, u .7c:1dn't have to uct
. - hin. And than l l'
;; il whsn he =mc '::0. h, S 'd j 2ct cit. dewn "no .rnh hic,' and ;
4
- 0 us would decy 'an in cha
- cle. l t'
,8 9 d
. . .us 4 .
.+
.[ a$ $ 7 her d.
, b@
,,'t '
3[ ,.,.b. .o
,;e .r.o cm.e.=%
w
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.g er ,
- s. G .* .,e.-.e,. 2.
4+. o. r..A
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;t) i. g*., .ii.e.
.. a
3
. . ge 'l4,m.h . . .
.'s. y g= = x.y%.N s
i
%ph 4. - e. .d d En. .e % me as'6 h e. .. . e ..
4, ;'
. ....,4
,,ew i.h ,f .,..a. 4. . a4ba 4w .
ae r,. -- . .=
- 3. .
s .
- . a . :.r . <a : mn r.n rce2. rucaria cerca I
P00R ORl81ML _ , . - - -- - - = -
t t 4
?
I 16-10.jubtI 2897 L l! a 7 cesibility that - he acen '2m before they wa put in
,3 2 the hole, hectr.m he wcu:d urita the stuff dcun hoforo I
i
,, i s they wcu put ir. the iola.
,i1 i
. i e 4!g 0 ,h,';;2 morn hs -:ouldn't unita it cut there j O! whors he was stehing, he would have to ccmo in ;ind leek d
1 1 at it. t 7j A. No, to wou.'.dr. have to, but that uoulc".n't look G( to swift, hi. filling cu'. inspcotion reports cutcido. 0 'lhl 0 In :.ther verta. then, it ic net your testimony M !!1, that Mr. Parlc. filled ctr: the forms withcut loching at the 11 nh rod. Is that ccrrean. P
!.0 1 Jl. iia OE stl tha Tor..r3. In a lot of ca?cc ha didn't a
13 f cca the aenic :ctusa hn t can' t au tha cnd whera ha could J c 1 14 ' ! ae 2 the esal, but I'6. : 2-ll he saan the reds. l t? h' 0 I'd :.ike to cicar up a point hers. l
-5 You talhad alcct timt, oh, 30 persant of tha way ,
i s? i through tho im pach' .:n de comparatcr appetr .d. In l d m- response to a c.31estian 3:mbody acked you -- 19 ll Mr. Ecchheefar. I think - ycu said you tech it to both j 1 8 i
.O ! QC inBPDCtor3. Di n t th07 C173 it to you and hall ycu 2! ; and point to tlat 37.nnre. first? i k
1., . 2 Y3S. Sir .M.S M n T.ft 3r I iTeuld 1Bt th0'"1 333
'k it; ycu .bcW, s.-nd =1' th. Ocughn333 cin't right. % r.3an, i
,, ) , h'*4[ hO i*. . .. s'$ [ UI! ." * *r.90
- nb.*. CrCu)h A $ CU .c uSJ !
4.d oh 4 e' a.. == ' = ' ob
.e crCO 1 ah" k ' ess' pO n l 1
POORBRWAL l
16-11 jwb 2898 I on the comparatar, that was the thne I said, you knew, for
/
2[ them to check is. I 3 j. 4 Okay, now, yea talked about filing an the face d- jI of thu real ~~ li
;I
- l J 1, L 'J.1-hn'.1. I 1
1
- t. :
' 1 3L G ~ ir. respeno:b, well, to several questions. i i ,
t l l 7 :, E >w many Gid yc a file on the face of? j l I h ' U \ 3 :,j A. I suid I filed cre, and I don't knou exactly i ; u !
< < \
9 h; ho*: many usa dt.no. * { i iO (( 0, 30 ycu re.nc d nr the number of that? fI P ' A, 27 0 , sir. l i i k.l c
! i, i
G Z man , 1: did: 't stand out in year mind as ! 13 h: s l ll
'. 3 p anything specic1, t'icn? .
o
<+ 1, i,
m .l L Woll at tha tfac, it was -- as rough as the l D 9] 1 v cecis was, I didn't firu:a that that was going to make any l 4jn difference. . W If I fic.;ur 3d t;at onc coal wuld of mcdo a
~
J./ < 1 I e a ll difference, I uou:.d havo liad the nns er scr.cplace. I'd of l h i3 ;j wrote it down n::.d kapt 1:.
]
.sa u
r.0 j, n oks.y . dc you :.acall tchen, in the 39qcc:1ce of , y c', the job, that .-rou 6il tirit? I mean, at the very b20 inning, k 11
'iI or tcMard tho :ni s os ':h &.?
23 " .i. .:3 E0m' ih372 3.n Yle middit, I g:000. I flat re.ncmbtr .11..+; ths :c21, 1 i
1 .
, I.
i f i 16-12 jwb q a 2899 - It I . l- G Nu .htt fi.la carcer than the material that a
,, l, '
vc1 ur .h as.~in~s se: o en the fcce of the
- asal?
e . n. Ya.: cir. :
?
e 4 !. , B :'.nf. :ould fou, 23 an experianced millwricht, use - l e, , 3 n a conraer fiin thin the :.interial that you ucra going l, q t 6b te fila? - i: l
- i 74(t' B. Uni ces, it lopen3c on hou you hold a file, o
5, , sir. I nean - . hen yau d. st; a file across . piec.) cf matal, l E. I ?.can, that r.1*tal On't gcing to be roughc than the filo, i H l 10 h if ycu et:::t U .th a imeolh piece of metal, I mean, ycu're ! l d 11 go!.ng to rmii' n it up .nnte, but if you start with a -- - i 12 ig yo,. en mdt a r3.eco of '.tatn'. fairly omcoth with a file. e ; 12 i I neen, avon :;.'.th n . c :ga filo. I 6 O p JTuct the facu ths.t the file is r ugher than I
- S g tha pious ycu ro work:'ng on we.uld have no affect. I mean,
)
i U; ycu can me.o *.: suce'1er thnn what the file is. ' i
;7 B If ":n fil;d cir fully and preparly, then, it i; >
wculd impr:70 10 ::u::fw: ef the seal, wouldn't it? 0;I f
- a. '50
. n.ccu n ) .ro a 'd have c low spot.
- U
. B ch, "cu mn m y n1 filed in cuch a way to create
! -3 a icv c;ct? -
, a. a, m kn :w, . vculi : cay thtt if it vac between tM burr c.nd ; o :h_ ig , ;.t'd n. rchab1v. be bettsr,*r:c. . .
But l a.r27 52 2 ' '::n :e a fila -- if tha sosi had b :m c.o:d in tha first ;;:'.r.a .: tre2in't of h Mn be:ter. I'd sa? it was i l l i P00ROMINAL I e
, - - - - . - , n- - - - - -. ,,e - - mee r - e, - w. -
i 16-13 jwb, 2900 Ih prebably better 'dicn ihat it we,a there, but,'ouf knew, if I
>Ir:
the zeal hts ;>.: v. a gaca ;eal, I mean, I wouldn't attempt o M 3 l} to Jile . peli.;.r:d cu.:fac3, ycu know, with a file. I
.t 4j rn:.t : d..: x:23 fa:rly rough, and it had a nick.
3 , 20n kx et7, it M. .n ' t a big ::.ick , 'but it did have a nick
'1 o 6l and I juct tr.'s 1sd iu off.
e 7g ]. A.11 !ght, now, you testified, I think, that you i$ 1!! had uced mat.rf : loth :.o pelich eno coal. Is my memory n s* yl :orrect on the ? i-SC P .$ . ;!c, c ir. I 11 .
.e i. , O. Did su cvar ur a cmory cloth to polish a real? i I
i i 12 f.! n. :Icn to p::1.ich the scal. We used enory cloths -- l 1
.s
'.; l triad, ycu kr. afta: it was filed,.ycu know, if tilere war a
t }. lt dy r.:ny prob 10:n th 2.ro, but nr.ory cloth is, as the IEC .ritness l'
.dj called cat, irc 't goiag to have vary much effect at all
, 1 o n 3 !! on stnicia n M ni, baccr ue it' a vary hard m tc.1, and >
6 i.
,r' n
j cmcry citth.* :.?s't genna hava too much of an effect on it. I t is . G I'n sarry? Iid you er did you not uay ycu had t
.I k
3 [' nces cr. cry alci h on L serl? j i J.c i. L 7eah, they did, but it didn't have no effect on ! i I. a it bc01tse it'r auch a herd metal. l
,2 G FLc Id this, . hen? i
- n. "?;11, I -- I did en the cna I filed , but like I said, it d;3.' 'at3 at i..Jfact.
, G Tau- nn sty:..ng ycu dif. :se anc:."1 clath' en the k
15-14 jwb 2901 1 1 1 (- one you a.lodi
.i .
2l 2. 'lenh , nit I -- I -- I believe I said, ycn *tnow, I
?I .-
I di5n't .'tacu e ic:Ir . o i uny more was filed, but I don't 4 f r 'chinN tho.; uced ricry : lot.:.s at all after that, because
. l ',
c ,l1 mor7 clotha di. l' t ha ro r
- effect on it.
i s c l I raar, if y;u r bed lcng ene gh, it might of, I !,.- . but stain 3..ana a: ml is a pectty hard metal, and an onory 2[h I clot:1 inn. ' : the K.y to try and stocth str.inless stool down. 3
]F G Tay d.'1 you 2ns :mery cloth on it, then?
j r
': ,j 3. I Ue.:: :.Sid t 3. I thought it was ps:stty stupid f
- ! ! at the tima I
is b i) ?Tacn s 2a the17 r'htt was still that ca.Te red -- i jI t
' 'for h -
L; :) -- tJ.: Ocn any, whenever it was. You 6.cn't i i: ! d 22ma.abe: the e/.cs. :t tin 3. il t
.T 30.
e 1: j i), Yen J!I uaa ?morir cloth. 4 1 i 12 J.t 3. (9ita 30 ncas in the a:2firmativo.) a
;3l .
3 2.no ru that rod panscc and put into the hole?
' [i 3. ~1<.3 3 , sir. ,
q' s.
. Q, :4.2. W:torha'.in p ;into cut that the witness
- f
't .tedd :.d . i: r ege.n hn 71 q;ection, "had ha uced a:c:ry ,
sict2., " '.::t *.h .: . atcr:or r.:parencl/ didn't get it. l 4 A$ [ 'e E I* )C t l m - m .: n : 3 n en en racord. l P00RORMAl. i
.'.3-15 jwb 2902 I ; le?.. C 31ER: We have nothing else.
il 2- canfarriag.) G 00 .- t 3 ,sl, 20M'I ."233IINATION II
; i ..,
~. s %. at,
, p. >.:: ,
- t 3 Cne 2l.r a1 E.:ing Mr. Martin. I'm not really 5 nN( .
3ll sura fr.m sc .m n' yoca co ciercation here. I can't under-
- t.
7Ls; stand ycr myr.tr' 2nec , me. thought you, told me you caed il a .Eilo on:.y tt- z.hc c.re Sf c little burr on the edge of 3$n I}
# f the ceal. I; c'nt ri rht?
1 Ko, 40]a ; n i. ; i; i.
.i G 7o0. uunti:nad a burr. What is a " burr"? 1
,e la ll 1 T. bur is a rai.ed place.
ii
.i
.3 [ G I11 :: .ght, t.c t sat uhet you und the file for? !
,.1 i
, .?
,1 1 Fuh . l
,t i l '
;d G Uan umno a.ty':hJ.ng 3100 you used the file for?
,e ,
3 i
!3 ,
1 Thc.t . diin 't u :e it for, I, ycu know, I think l i J ther e was i .::a <sa ; ot :c ones that wac filed, but I !i d 8
..) ,
wo.tu acccco th ; carfa:a, 2nd I don't rsmember excetly, t, I thi:.G it sca.. you kic';, ih -caen't dead in the center ,
- i e
m where the burr 7as, hit i: wont acrosa the turfaca. I ! l c
, 1 thc vght I'd em :iontd th: : to beth witt.assec. ;
1 n 3 I co' Mn't inde stand what ycu said. M: : _ :n Ord.a.':lf fid, but I couldn't undcratand i voc. Ua 511.2 h :h 3 :iddle of ths --
. 1 I m. 2 u m. c , =, e y c%
k
.- .o \
l. 16-16 $wbr,r 2903
-1 1! ochcr . I 1 :
s 1: G A 1:'.t :le 2n!. sed place on the metal, cert of half O j;- cut by the leth a, cort of stuck up? - ; i
.\. ?!c, it loded -- it appeared to me -- y:u know, I
.i I
U I don't 1:new tr::.ctly '.thut it var, but if something had
- 1 f
j 1~ hit it r_rd knen :ed tha hur.r, and I just knochad the burr 1 end 5tt's l ll 022, OlG' >l 1 N I 22 . ar l'als 3
> l
- ,* 1
- ,i fl
[3 l
. ; h; ey
..\.
- 5 a
- 'T . t
.0 l
t
}
t 6
.f l l'
l- .i i
.T
- 0 l i e
t l a. l I
1!An arl 2004 ? 1l 0 ch, I coo. Whe,during impact, semuthing nit- it,
~
I t
, I and rairad I Liun.1a spot?
.. o 1
1 7t n into it ma raised the soot, yeah, lika it 3
-,, F, P.pcen. red i:o m3 - I don't :now what caused the damage.
- i. I q D2. c' OPE 3: Ok g . All right. Thank you.
O a il'
, C3A:: J:7d1 311.TF03FER t Based on that lact very 2 .i I
chort caris of Jues tions, dow anyone have further questionn?
. i>.
7; jl N2. CaTNE3: Z ' .! like to try to find ou', what h ' this bur . e:,3 :v:w anparen: dent - - 9
/ i T33 U STESS: I didn't say dent, I said raised.
10 "l i.
,1 ",i :'t we.c tiit, 'a st :he pcit tact uars of concern was sticking i up above it, and y.m know, if they had a dent, ycu'd have to g
fila .2 unalc. lo: to ,at ttat dow.1, and that vasn't done.
.3
,,4 ,[i I 51 .h @m : ?r]bably the reason cno was rejected,
*/ou kncu ,. '3r.d 'ro 1 coul.In't get it out, but this was a raised
;3 :'a - -
t P f ' '01.201, 1::. * ? you tit it f::si tho Oide and sort of made a burr.
~.,). .'
4
- t i CR~S 3 C1! EO.MD EXAMINATION
;71 i
.i EY dt. COMU2n: '
. , . t av l Q Url.., new, ,rou :estified in response to Dr. l
. Hoopar'a questict in u2c n>t on the edge.
.c3 t
A r. Scu't renam.be . I know the burr end was filed
<i
.. s. p off. I : cu S. w:2 1 1c q time ago, and I know there was ,
- m. . , ,
a b":r %:uru,
.'a.
Pal- nn tin :; .ca 02 mstal around this ring, if 4
.?,
cu T'.] .'. , .: . - :: ;a a nse on an adge, it ./culd be up here
- t e
P00R BRGM
,1 cr3 2905 1
11 likt s'n..uyhere in tha middle, er more nearly in the middle , d.
; j Or r:cmething ~n.<z2 that. 7.3 that what you are saying?
's i
3i A Yenh. dIo Q It's like a picca of metal that pepped.ahave the i
,S .;
'aurface of the .;u 17 Is vhat what you are sayingi 1'
3 ; A I n r't U.new Y1at you mean. It's a piece of
- a. i II metal
.2izen vr.: higher tha the rest of the seal.
h 3 J; $ Q h .c a h m p (r 2 machine burr? j g i A It . c'srp, you know, it looked like comeone J
~
- o!a hit it. I dnt P kn.a what caused that. I have no way of- )
t< a 4.; j telling : :.n 7hu cetus a it. All I'm telling you is there was ! i , a b: r Wrn., I 1 ER : CEI2; W. give up. g
,e g j C U' :. AIG 23IC50322R: Mr. Brenner, do you have --
4 11 3 . RE2Hl27.: l'33. I guess ycu should have I w a 0 evo."fh :dv - -lze e though,
., , C3 : M.'iM 2LCE02?IR: Wall, I put cut a general l l
1
. . , .questica, bu: n cc anyonc .: ave further qusstions based on 1
- .< 1 l
- thi: Icx:t 7.iL: 7.d sub ;ent that the Board and Mr Brenner l
.J,,
s 1 1 i s.4, f rai.3cd? I l l l l n Da. :IdiKHMJ3I1R- No questions. l
-s ,
l s C:i;J. I'AN ECEE.rE2: Okay, Mr. Brenn'ar. 1
-c ' l l
i y*. ..
.,...-,3..n.7..,<.
m, , :/ -- 2.rt..:.- if mmsene shcVed yr.u the comparater 1 thc- . , . 2.:; .: . ;/imr dur, could .v.on point to tha Opc: 1 l s P00RGENAL
1 I i sr3 i 2906 i f
- 1. 3 thc5 yot traco pc.inted te (:n the job? ,
2 'q A I sica ld say thc-e would be no reason to. I mean 0f I cr.n rcn.cmbar, fou ::.ou -- 4' Q Well y7s or nr? p t 3j. A- I '<::tld cny no.- sir. 1, 3 ,. i MP.. I IC*CT2 : Ckay. Do furtimr questions. 1 1 7, (Do ? i Ocnferring.) 1 4 3I CHAtl uN SEC33CTT3R: I belisvo that's all t.he l l g geom:icnc ac. ha ,9 and the crrhica have. The citness is 'l
' i 3xcr.c ad.
;c g. >
i y, D'it :cs e.<::u.x d.) l
.1 *l u
wl
~9
.? t^ ' n: tu ail". taka a break before wo get to Mr.
4 h
.n ,
, M au;. c. . .?.'oT0nh 2tal 10 rinutes. '
J g[ D. EWJ2 : T .tt . Chair::nn, let ma -- all right, I guesa 1a hav to tei:3 a broah. ic , g; EaJ:7 tar.) 1
- t. oy :Ec:'?30.)
f
.m w
TSE. 2 TT2E3: Er. Chairman, Federico Maura has
.; l i
* }
. n, i
' Ikon 110 'Itttd arr t:2 3 tiff once again. j
.g j *T1crauptn .,
i. , . ., .j TEDE?.ICO A. MAURA l 4:s 7:acal'11 c . <<i i ., : 2 3 3 ay and en behalf c2 the Regulatory l 3 Staff ca.i. .::vd i r x un pn.7iously duly r. crn, was c::cmined 4
,, 2nd ?. m d ; 1. a:i <
* : u r la 1:>1. low::: i
.> j P00R ORIGlWL
ar3 2907 2 3IRECT EXL.!INATION - 2 M2. ER3h.ER: His tectimony is bound into the C[ Tr. 1643 E.s vs U 3 crib:: 3 yr sterday at pages 2608 to 2 311. Wa've acimi uto 2 a:. !. his tesi:::c.ony, including that on Contention 3! 15, Oc va cca gc right ahend with cross-e:cnninntion right now. b d
'3 c:r.4I ' AN LECHH0EF?.:R: Okay, Ms. Kocik?
7 C 205C-lC*4W.t'ATICN l 0l SY Mi. HOSIL: l o j Q Seu cf ten will the rr. actor be shut down such that k i
- c h the reals ;ould :a in usa?
O 4 nbr A Chnt' hard tc :2y hecsuse the main reason for i ll I'2 " ramoring the eli".2 for 2.ais:tenance is the internal seals of I g, j the drive, so it Seprnis or what schedule has been selected L p, i by the manufactv: car and thc licenaea to replace these f. [3 !! inte rna!. drive e t als. But, you kncu, it's normally during II g,9 ihe .u fneling ouisgo, you remove a certain number cf drives 4. cr.d r?plact ths ::al:. a p; j Q ind ic v of t:n vculd that be? I 10 j A Cnce : year, cet id be once every 13 mcnths: it i F r i
;g dspend.s tn h:u ::ng the fuci cycle is.
y ; Q Mr.cid 2cro be cny othar reasons why it l
~._, Slu ul. he chu': c. . a er '.ha reals .could be functional, if
.l i l
.s.
.3 they ra h net!.c:.. n?
i 1
? n er- 1.d hs 12 ensrs is a problem '7ith che control !,
rod i:1:" . :.ut ' a hen, to shut d:wn. the unit to replace. ;
)
I ( 6
. P001375E i
ar4 2908 n If Q An:/ 1 cking than does take place durin'y the 7.hutdorn Jould it :331.e place first before the removal of the i 8 '. cont: ol red - dri"e n, ax than again after the removal -- 4 lL l Jell.. whm it's .ain<3 repl..:ad? h
.1 0 h, A It 'e , atual:.y a ! tar the removal . and before the p
J J acplccement gone back fn. 8
N O Durir.9 that enti.ro period of time it's leaking?
a 3 A in3, ac lont z.s vou do not flange it. c i 0 t 1 Q And hcw loct c I ericd of time will that be - D ,; MIt ., EiENNE2: I cbject, Mr. Chairman. Thore is i l n l no fcundcc.lon in the rceerc'. that it was leaking the entire l 11 l l 0.;.e :ssed.:ny it tht the seal is called upon to
~
12 :.} time.. )
,4 13 :l perferm 4ta fnnc'.i.cn Strinc that paried of time.
I, '} 14 ,o, Udt if Mc. Kosil. Wants to hypothecize a coal that ua N-llaak.s,uhrt'cfi;2,
.tn assume it.
.a : d':.3 tiara'n no tastit.ony that these 3 c1 would I
;) : c1 rays *.cn.
- l
?3 .j O!c'ar d con-f e rrir F. ) ,
;t 1 4
- .Or' Us 3D TdOEFER:
'9 I gue s you have to lay a
.i i
i no ] fitzth:3r fc.uadati:1, at leaet.
! I Lj : S'1 EC, IOS ~. * : I e
f
'/2 .
Q Duri:- the ' 3ric
- of time than the control rod i.
l 2 Crivs ic ::.t :2 la.ts..:::r. wetid the seals, as part of (
, 3
$; D .* S.L nLa >= A ~w.
.. M. l.I . 7 ,, I. .! .l.3Chbn?7 i J k It 70 .4 ~;1 *? 2 0 . '
u,..- P00a
1 2909 f:5 l Q L:u o :.d i t cou.'.d be. Will they'be? j r 2 k. A Well, it levends on the seal itself. Soma seals [ 3' only havn a lech ga of a faw drops. Soms leak I. tore than that. So it denanda en the cual. 3f I Q Acetr.ng :nnt these aeals mast the specification, S 9L uoald ther 3 Se 1.mhage attring that period of time? . il Thase are not leak-tight senis, by 7] 0 A Th ra could. 0lanynents. i b 0 0 50 th -n yott arc saying that they would loah? 4 10 t .~. Yonh, becau:e i: depends -- I maan, I cannot say
- i. '
11 . the. cea:. juah : .causa it rt2ets the 63 rms, that it '.3 going 4 1
., o
)" .
Do .4.,3 pe ? "3001,, 4.73 D . i { 33 Q Cat 'culd.:e tha manimum amou t *..f leakage 14 y thrc':gh t?te %i , thrngh theco sacls, during ths time a 1 D :j periad whan the : cab:c.. ac ! drive system is removod? a, 13 A I da:. t kacu uh 26 the manimum uculd be. It depends
.. 4, 17 b on t..;c renditio.2 cf th3 oc 21.
4 13 0 Do y : hr/c any idea what the condition of the I
'. ] l coala la?
t
.D l A 11 0 , ,: vit . co. tid -r ry with the life of tha plant.
J. , ~1o 2 :cul ? ha n .. ;;cd seal , but you could still have a small ,
, i 1 1
- n i ne t t '. p r::ic:. 3 - *. Octla :a -- cocid find its wt.y t: that !
6 3 4 ars- bot a=n th: 32a1 mi he baci: seat. " Ice %ncw, thera s
.g -. ,
.'.r e : e a = =. n mc 1
, .j . ,
0 % L2 : .11.ulen will this laakiar -- w..11 this j P00R O N M
I ar6 2910 I I leaking ettar an.itain any radiation?
- i 7 \.1 A Yec,':he ic2 king water would have radioactive t
, a
+
3 part. ales. 4 [ Q Coul! you aty wc.r.t the quantity would ba of 5 thosa ratocchi.ri part'.cles? 6 A no, I don'4 kncf. That depends en the reactor 7 itcalf. 3 0 So y: 2're n1ying that there could ba core leakage [ 9[ ? rom then scala , and ,rou don't know how rauch radiation in It ' N; : fact vill be len.:ing; is that correct? ) I
!! . A T'nt'i right. i personally cannot give you a ;
e - cCr.
'.l u m'
- 7. l i f
l I l 0 Ana ntere util this leakage and up? I 13 tl 1 l1-14 ' f A Fell, it fi1 ally ends up in the radwasta system I j5[ for ?rocnaing. ;j p
.}
;J j!
O Who O'.sans it up? d, 44 .i i A Hel.'. . wh rior i; the radwesta operator the.t ! f d l0 % :.akc3 cura of pc ':a:vi q c' t uater. . n 1 , p. Q Nill ~.t be cr.p:.etaly cleaned up, or will it
,qo V acce miab3 3
^
p;; E A 11 3 , .: d&p(nd3 en the plant design also. Somo f l j
;2 ti plan?.: ::: s ti.aani c' rep rox es all their radunets wc;;ar. #
4 J
;:3 Lth2.:3 :r:.11 di. harge a c?.rtain amount after processing it, _ 3'
. 3 i
e- :otn .: :. ' 3 t .hc :igalations- j O 7. t s to y. :.n:t a: .hin plant, whether it wi.11 1 4 P00R EME
ar7 2011 IE acct:: .ula . /.? I f4r. Chairman, that cusation ha:s to be 21 E?. . Si,I::!IER . t. 3i alx.*!.fied, .'.r 2 ro . tal":ing about accu:nulation of tne point i 4 of 2.te po ;nlat.2.1 leakage, or are we talking about accumula-5 '. zion with;'.n cho ?ailwnc':e clean-up system? I' , o 1 r 11 6 'l BY IU. 2:0S13: ' i] f-7 !, O Talking abo'it at the point where it leads to. ; 1 h 3' n You naen On the ficor? 3 0 Ysa, s 20 A No , itera 1.1 a _.:.im o_ that periodically numns out . q> 11 !! the radva ite., l 12 0 And c :naid'c. ting the radiation dosage to workers l
! l 1
13 ! at the p' uit ,, i; dis,..he radiation in the leaking water ! L a jd conci&,r217 m ,1 A Ac Ir ac I a*n : enc.2 ned, wa have a branch within II
- 3 j our .:f!i:: that :ahec Jare of snuuring that c:cposure to
-p; 1 percancel th .t > :rk at the sit 2 is naintained within the h
s
- 9 d r ?.g ula tic.13 .
;0 , I poricnall.i C.c not 3at involved in assuring it a
;;g ? or gtara;i:ecing : hat i:~1at is don:a. There is anothar group 1
1
. .. I 'that dcas that.
1
';.2 , G D3 c: : ~1avo any idea or could you stata at the e
. a,.
i 'J 1.u a r e. l > ' M. t lf t'n enc'.ition of the zeals as they
.s .
ara .o;; , J.r a ht : .r:. nun acunt cf laahago vculd be? l, d
': 1 ;": . ::Gr :e::.: Aall1 h vs scen .3';: of th';5 137 i 1
l arS 2912 i Ik sia.'. n . Etac6. o::. the air, that I have seen, I would say that 1 D 4 durin; ths disat:a wbly of raschanimn, we will just get drops. 0' MS 3:CSIK: Nc durther questions. 4 CELID:AN BECHEOEFER: Mr. Ecile? J
.1 BY MP.. HEILZ:
3 Hr. 3:..ura, I unC.arctand that your testin.ony, O 4 7' nrocntially your findinge on the cestir: tony, are based upon 1 3' renpactive revin -- be.ced upon inspections done predominantly D by the Licenace, with the c::ception of the -- of the six 1 30 ;, control - .31:: cc;1s that you looked at. l t \ 21 A That is coriect. ! l 12[ G Sc v_ an're prattf much dependent upon the investic_a- , f ; 1 13 - : ion donc by the Licencce cc to the smoothness of these 1 l I M realc; is that t..so correct?
- .5 A Tha': 's 21ac correct,
. i i
1
- 3 0 N:r ?, em I alac correct in understanding that C' the functicn of the setl is to kaap scmething frem getting
*3'
, through to tha :<hcr cide? Is that true?
19 ' ' a I '/ct:d not put it that way. I would say to i I 5.0 mini: . ire. ! l 21 Q To n:'.ninize. O: Ly. c.y 24d : te.1-1 8.h h e "our tcutir.ony that if the t i 2; circ";sfr: n : of tha 3ial i' nOt sncoth, mighi: that cifact l 24 2c Japalf 2.1::7 o the ter.1 to P.03p son:staing 2 rem getting l i I L f
,o -
rot gh w ::. ;2r idt, for instance, the water from tha -
~ .: ;
t l* Y
- h. { !
J P00RORi3lfEL
I ar9' 2913 I reactor? r
~
2 A Ycu mt.cn kring the maintenance? That 2.s trun. 3 But, cea, I look at things frca the point of viou of cafecy 4 uithin my arna,i.nd t'a!a s e l, frem the poinc of view of 5 the cafety, ht.ve to encuru that the roda move, that the 6 j vossal Lu not drrit.ed (uri:q refueling and during maintenance 7 ' actuc11y ;]ay no taf at:- part e.t all. B Q Eazer.Linl.y then the answar to tha questien in D i it 'c a mnbter of dagret.:, it what you are charactericing, f 10 ' and chat cafc :y. preder.inantly the safoty of the workers M l involved '.n the trea .a acr..athing which la the concern of 12 anothar c.rer of the Mucinar negulatory Commiacion. 13 l A Thorn is anc ther branch in our offica, yes. f Ml m
; O A?.1 right. So when you aay at the end of your 15 testimony th .e t! e armil leakage ma'/ create an inconvenienca i
I 13 ! to clinter uco Iireennc1 during removal and subacquent I reinstallstian et conu:.ol rod drives, that in ther. case doea
!*; ]k 10 y it c" ente a saf: f y prciler.i.
Am I correct.17 interpreting P i. is that testimony t: mocn that it doesn't creato a cafety probicm I 30 4, for the Wcp.e er the rtrect, hv.t it may involvo ::erre e:posure b 21 [ :o t'as t orbra?
,,,2 d 3 Tcs, b pef inVC/?O scc 3. And a130 dh3 part of l I f
i sk 3 j1 the is '. ecansa ! was raferring to the flanging. ' inccm iciar :. s 2 ', , Yeu t
*.3'?3 - :O Gut flX't O C" Gud tPdt1 it off if 'feu dC not i
6 g3 ha;c f.a m '.2n t .ca n i y e~" ' + 1 2 cc reincart vl. thin a k
.i .
l . P00R MNAL
4 2914 arlo short period of ti.me. r I 2 0 Ars yc 2 satisfied that this particular pro:olem 3 Mith the ;ccls ha; cena to the attention of the Department 4 of the SC that .i.ght S-2 concerned with the area of safety 3 cf tha werhr27 0 A 2h c('.ur branch, I cannot cay whether they know 7 of it,because ttsy dor't look at it on case by case. They 3 come in and the'j look c t .aht's going on over in the plant. O And they look at like I say, refueling; they look at the
- 0 entiro mc.interr.nra procram and the refueling prcgram, what's 11 goint en durh.g raat ti.ne.
12 They tre no:: going to concentrate whether this guy Q I got 5 !G Lore or. this j ob cnd 25 on that other job. They are
!.i ; only intore.st2d in what he is getting overall.
Q Mighc it bo crudent to refer it to ths subdivision : 15 l l
;G if, for instrnct this seal would not hold back, let's say,
;7 9 cven as half 23 c.ach of the fluid that it'a intendcd to hold u
il g l} ., hach? p A No, I f.cn't cea any real need to. As 1cng as 19 '>' l t
,10 ! the 0:tponure to '.ho vethe:r does not a;cceed the regulations, l t
that is ont r.c.in concc;n. a1I
- c
..m P1 Q h th ro x: a wc" 'rou ::an determina whethar or u,
3] - not -h. I ccn f.t : 3 a :.v:. uter of the badge , you are 1 1 6ii ;I UC'11!.d-
- i 2. t ',3 5 25
. 4- iG .. OJ-' _ r.# 7g2
<;;; . A 1hr t. s ': hi' har',co, whatsver his docimet:r says, P00R3RIBl0L :
sr11 f, I whatever the records indicate, yes, that sort of monitoring. 2 E. !!EILE: "kay, that's all. O C:T.LIRPM EEOil10EFER: Dr. Fankhauscr. 4 P/I DR. FAETc3 USER: 5 Q- Whtt woule ysu cutimate to be the maximum S c accey'ahlt leaka;2 froc onc of these saals? 7 n. P:cbably, from my peint of view, strictly,and not 0 worrying tStur. Oha other aspects that have been brought to -- 9 during thist disc 23sion bcut radiation doses, it weald be 50 if there would be 2 dan ger of draining and onposing the 13 fuel, so in that ace pu'ra probably talking about no seal 12 at all. 13 Q 3ul yc 2 di.'.n 't any that va should ignore the 14 l conctrn ateut tha radia:icn of tho workers, though, under-
.I
;g neath tha'? c :.rou 2r.2 only referring to ycur cun branch; is !
i 13 that it? l 37 2G. . '33 7IJNEw. : Ar. Chai:=an, cbjection. That's a p g h misch.aracterizati m, as Ar. Maura tactified several nimos, u , ; i i i 39 [1 aapacially in reapense to Mc. Heile's questions, the protection! ! 1 g) f:om tha point o3 viaa af caccpational exposure is not 1 l 5
.i ;
l measured .2s a mea :Tec c ? quantity of gallons perminuta, or
.n F something c:it2, 't iich .1 Dr..?ankhanser is going..It's done i >
3 .,: . as a cant ar of cc ::;3 i, ) :t::t of the ever:11 health physics i e
'l .
I
,,;, . preg: rn ind W r' saf. :o tim:ny en what thac 10, too, frc= 1
,9 as
'I h as me h 4[h .Th n b) e 4M )). f . 200 cc o :e il 33, ,
U
I ar12 2916 1 the radiation cu;. teys : hat are conducted at the beginning O' V 21 of the joo, and :ho health pnyciciat determines the timo 3 ) peri:d a.2 3 nor;c.:: ceu..d be in thoro, and so on. 4 So it mischttractari::es to state that 11r. Maura 5 is not cc!:.ccrnal 111th 1: hat, or that the Staff is not- concerned 6 with that,. beera.m it'cs act in tcrms of quantity of gallono 7 per ninuta. ond 17 3 3 to 11 12 O 14 15 , I 15 17 ,' , j ,.. is I 10 20 as . i
*l t
T 23 j.- ua I~ k j
': \
p v- ) y v - w.N , - .,n,. , ..- -n -- .,-- - n - n.. - -w- ,I
2917 7d. avid 1 CHAIIFJ4 EEC IHOEJ'ER: I think that'a right. I l idl. 2[ At le tst try to r aphI:.3 3 yctr cuestion because I don't l tD.o.Iq' O; think the charaetark 2 tion ~ j i
, ar 4 LY 0:4. 7.CFlLiUSER:
i Et 2 In your ccncl. dart.tions, are -- you are not 3 concr;.:nc.d direct!r in your fr.netiening in the Nac with ; 9j possi.~:1c cuponurt to workere as a result of thic lealtages is t g! that 7,orggag7 I f al LIR. D'. L.UER: Object, Mr. Chaiman. I nael f jo i clarification wh; the "Jou" in, does he mean Mr. Mnura i
- e. l a
perscaall2 cr the. NEC? I MR. FlJKDAU33R: No, I'm speaking of Mr. Maura.
$3 l 13 TIra til .OESS : "rirect,d you are correct, as long a! a =3 ycn use tha.t 5 rd. If you say " indirectly," maybs, because g l. I scratis::; cncc! duri:1g dt ring an outage uhat's geing on, i
g i, but "S.irectly it not my frnetien. gy EY 32. PAur.? AUSI:n: g; O Bt.,yc.2 certain"y parconally, I am sure, are t 79 ; cenccrr.nci abcu;; '::acedtres that might incr:ase the exposuro
..o j4 er warhrs i:. t2: plant?
<m s.s I A I'm : .acerat d the.t the regulations cro not t
auccd.e d ., !
.r . . , . I, ;
] i y, 4 0 0.: y: ** thc. ' precedures in cp nation or l
)
a.canu; 2.c"'t *: 2 '
" 'od k O C.
- c 0 th3 0%poSur3 50 Ucrkdr3, SV0n
- w. ,
i
._ i thout h it os .::- n.rca Jcr.. uithin the legal limitc, uceld 4
4
l 2918 david 2 1 be desira. ale? ! 21 A T hey nay bo desirable, but I don't have any I 3' lega.'. <.ay to andorce in:. 4 Q Le: ma e:glore rith you the precise function of 5 thec3 seala. 3, coulf you t.311 v.s whether the leakage from these -- l 7' whet ~aer in the n umal func'.icning of these seals one would i 9 find ths Arauf.2;ive -- curmulative leakage from all of i 9 the 137 fual ::a.is at cae -- control rods at one time?
'10 A I dida'u understand the -- what are we looking
' for7
?!
l 12 !I O n il, chay. 13 ', t i'l quc:tice. -- as I understand it, these seals f.; ! function waen tr.2 centrcl ::cd is remcVed; in that ccrrect? I gf Uhen servicing the resctor would one expcot 20 ' that only One. n d would be taken out or would one c:pect that ry ; r.11 107 r'ight be taka:. out or scramthere in between there? t A '2 hero is nc way to tahs all 137 out As a : natter 73 f 1 1 i
;3 ' of fact, these .a -- there are vary few that you can taka g) out bccanza 12 topendu on the location. I i
- th;nk rceat technical specifications only allow 20 ,d ;
en two at a ti n .: 32 tr.kon cut. It's a very small nunbar. l I ^
..., Q d .n it only when .hese rods arc rcmoved that *
.a !.
y the ?mn.~. cct.e: rc:o p ay? - 4, a . A. .~h:2 '. 3 ri Jht. 1
2919 david 3 1 1Hl. I FIGHT. Dr. Fankhaucer, it'c when the control drivan c.re ren oved that the ceals cc:r.o into play, P. li 1 3i I not wher. ?.he ccr. trol Ieds are retc.oved. 4 LR. PAAIEIIM SER: I see. 5! TIIE !iIT!C E : '%s, that's correct. 1 This in what is going on. 3f MR. iAIG:iT: I 7 DR. I'MIKUnCSER. That's what I':n trying to -- 3 TIIB UITNESS: .v 'm corry Irdssed that. 9' I"! II . FMirH2.Ui 32: 10 . O Erith that 1c.rification -- thank you -- one could
. 1 I l
}i conocivnbly rartva all 13'i control rod drives for 1 m servicing, is tl7t correce? I l
A !*o .
);) ! ,
I 14 I Q Yo? I Jg A Ea0, to got the -- to take the drivo out, you
;3l heae tci M.thdra? r:ao b:ac.e, and t'.mre's no way ycu con iy witLdrx.: c.L of the .C7 b:.adea with fue.'. in thoro
- l .
;3f G 'he : triatr. r.urhar of control roi; oriros l
;)j that con 2.6 ',a rc roved at c given tima is?
y,) A Che rr.tbor that I recall from other installations !
- I
..)
.. f that c :5.n:tc *.n t y mini is about two.
i n ! O Ec .;' .t at ar.y given ti_nn, caly two sen1n -- two j
.- i i
1 4,-,
' j ,l cf '.hetc Fo r :.u :uld ie =.i.1ad into play? Am I -- is that' i
. , , a as *::1c.
.- . ':vkr ~ ::.:d i g a : mi.a?
V e l t : #r. a.e a ne maaimua. . 1 pgt W,a r 4 -- -T-- --t-i+ sv-+ ry ,- ,ewinesy, wer r,- w- V ec - -%,- vm-,-
b; . 2920 david 4 : I On. JANKHAUEER: An right. No further questions. l Ou 4.. ' CI'A:Ft'-J.! DEC:IEOr?ER: Let's see. Mr. Conner? 3i (!!o reopen 32.) i I 4( aCARD 3 GMETATICN 1 3i ! BY ME. BRIGT: 0 Q Mr. m.ura, back when you first -- the question was 7 asked -- thic art.n3 -- the: o was comething about you are 0 totally dependent on the licensee for theinspection of these 9 reds and I was f r.st wer dcring: did you mean that you give 10 no volght to th: inspcetien of the rods or rod seals 11 specifically nade by the manufacturer before it ever leaves 1:3 the picnt? 13 A You 20s.n at Wilmington? 1} Q Yes. 15 A We at regict II.T. do not conduct vendor inepactions. g Thoc0 are done cxt of logica IV. So wo dn't have any 1 i
- t. v. >p accees ::e thcae recordr. 1 i
13[ Q Ohay. Let ..e rophrace the qucation just a' bit: N dcas tha :t:cisar Ecgu2.ctory Cc=nission taka that ptrticular gg I.. i m thing into accou t, the t.ctual incpection procedurcs that 4
.e.. . ,j the innufacturar -'.
J t 2'd d A I' aust ma 30 but y n vould have to talk to the l
, pecpla ir. rcgion Ii/ ap cifically; they de thovendor i
. , , i, i
.e. a ,,
inapDOt4. :C ~
'A u y 3 . .
1
** . e e . **
I'
2921 d avid 5 1 A Well, for any piece, a vessel, pressure t" n 4 veerel, pumpc, v21 von, whntever. 3 0 You n aan region IV has the responsibility 4 nationwide? 3 A That.'s corr 3ct. 3 0 I dic.s't r: alice that. Thank you. 7 You inspected. ci:: rodo? 3 A Thct.'s right. 9 0 Percenally? 10 A Yes. I 11 0 Did rou inapcet the senis on those roda? 12 A Yes, those were the six rods that we talked about i 13 yesterday. j i 5 1.J 0 Yec. I' 15 A Righa. Wo!.1, they were -- we knsw there uns a i conasen on the seals, a cendition -- but I personally 30l I ty[ loo::ed at thoca six acals, c
;;3 [ O and lid yc1 consider that you gave them a 0
;g d thorough inspa : ion?
1 - 20 l!, A Yea, I uced both visual and also my finger, , I p g;y fingerncil, trf ,ng i ta sec -- I was :nostly 1 coking for
.~
, b, acrat :hes, 2100 alcJa , hur c , whatever. I did.V t use a :
]
14 5 e'
~! cor';crator. ,
y
-4 Q In ; nr a;;eri nce, if you have cuch erperienco --- ,
.n
-~
[ in yc:= e::p.;rd.: ace, nule the s:ccchnet.:s of these coals , a
l 2922 I 1 favid 6 1 compare equally, worse. better than other seals that you
- 2. have inspectzd?
3 A . Most c:J the naals hat I have dealt with in the 4 past are actua11./ very polished cec 1s.. They were seals 5 where we vere 2. cempting actually to atnin =cro leakage 3 metal to .netal. 7 It u 3n a prirury seal, and those were polished 3 to a mirror fini3h. So co: pared to the ones I used to 1 0 '- work on, these x;e roughar, yes, because thece were not 10 polished. 11 { Q Uc11, then your 2.ssessment would be that these 12 were adequato? 13 A Well, for the function that they are -- g 11 Q !?cr t'.ta fua: tion fer which they are intended? 15 A night. We're not 1 coking for caro leakage. 16 . MR. ERZCE": Okay, thank you, sir. l - 17 !
- j3 3Y C:n~23WI B3CIIiOE73R:
3ilv O When you tsstified that you reviewed the licansac's 33 inspection -- ,
-o.i . A '?he Iscord.
=- C The 12ccrt, yez. Is that incofar as these 3.; rede c.ra cencerned - did. the records appear -- let's see.
j . < . You he.9. it hora. A Atz: ':.r'u
- :3.
'I
- _ ~- -
2923 devid7 1 0 attachtant D. 2l A Yes. 5 9 I notiae tha': item six says " inspects scals' 4 surfaces for nick 1, scratchas, et cetera." 5 Doca taat corer roughneso? G! A No, b n there is no -- in the incpection procedure, l 7 if you loch at -- that'a attachment C -- there was no 8l requiremen'c for.2 rough:1eas inspection or comparator 9 inspection. ; i 10 Au a a: e.ner af fact, there was no requirement for [1 i1 any inspection of the anals. This was strictly on Attachment 13 l ; B, a form that 1: 2tctor ;oatrola was using. i
, 15 i If yox lock .it ths G2 procedures, thero was no l
14[ requirement at al". thct they be inspected. I , jg [ Q So ath:.chmen : 3 was prnpared by your office? i
;g! .1 Mo, nnetor ' catrols.
?
1,f l 0 Ch,. c a , I re s, right < I gg l and th me v<r:o the d:cumenta that you cxamined? i A '2hnt t 3 right. 10 l I go [ Q Your of fico 2xamined? , I I e1 a And t:a r.: we f.nikO3 to the QC personnel.
] So tha; as i :r as -- new l
- e. ,
., G e as far as you were !
i e, a, conc = d, did ya : oven car ; -hather anyono locked at tho !
,J
,:.-> u roughne2n, :.0 ft.: 23 Rn : -- '
, 3 TQ 'Jh 1 * , a va a'
- ggj 3] gy $QQy .
*5 g
. . . . ,c .
2924 i david 8 1 Q Yes. k 2. A No. 3 Q So r. far a's NRC criteria are concerned, that i 4l 13 not relevant or -- f 5i A chat' a : ight, l 3l Q Or it's not impcutant. 7 CH;.II N Ii BEC'm 03.:.C R That's all the questions 8, the board han. 9 Mr. 3:: mncr? l 10 MR. B limER: I inve se:ue redirect. i 11 ! 3EDI33CT EZAMINATION i t 12 l' BU idR. DRENHIR: ! 13 l 0 Mr. Metra, I'd like to put this all in -- I y, b inspection er non incpactic:.1 of the roughness into a tg littla furt*c.er pTrapactive. l Ncw, - f )u tactilled first, I believe to Mr. Heib's 16 I
)
7-/ i questicna, that f.:,n ycursal" did not perfor:a much of the gg inspections. Th 2 :. 1s, you Only Icohsd at si:: of the contro2.
)
;g .. reds; correct?
20 A Chat' a ricA.h. g i Q Mov, :.1 fact you really caly icoked at the seals n' for thoca si:: boa; uco tiese vero rodo you varc looking at I e
~
l 2n7de.J d' or 2Cr 3 '17. ." f el le s nEGly, the poSSib12 proh12D3 ' i n 1 t p .e.
,-! with :ho *:ltC=29. :brru t? l
] .
.;; o A Tha.u ' 3 e tera :t. T/.an we received tha initial 1
2925 david 9 1 couplainti, we tiro mere concerned with the -- what later 2 ;:ecame contentim 15 then 16 -- mainly because of the 3 Ouncitcn -- you }r.cw, the .ceal has no safety function. - 4 0 .} ?cw, !!: it rair to say you're not concerned w-5 with Mra detaila f t'n licencee's inspection of that seal d, for :. onghna:n in lig:u. o!! your direct te.stimony, which 7 cxplo. ins the fu:tction ..f the caal and whather cmall deformitie 3 3 cuch aa ranghnen:. ,7culd. be a problem? 3 A That .'.u trun. 10 0 In Ecot, wenidn't you need a very groos deformity 11 cf the .3 cal at tlo botton of the velocity limiter to really la have any cor .cf probiom? m a Yes,:ou aculd have to have. 9 You m.cu, quite a -- like I said earlior, you
;g probably 'a.ould ?.tr vo 3 act 2 ally climinate the ceal completely, 10 , have an pon he:.t..
l. rj Q All .::.sht. I'm norry, did you have mtsro? m' A I sa:' . before wa would be extremely, then, m concoracil with n' a saihty of the machinc -- m p,o Q ::n f:.ct when you say an open hole, you're I-y not jvnt el.imir.c d.ag the coa h bui: you're talking,ca bout 9 22 ilo elimhating 2.2
- Itala 'alcuity lirdter; is that cor:oct?
ji , 3;. ij a Iha. . : '.r : control red hinde, yes. 1 , y, h I c.Y ' a +e d- # d a your testimony -- Q e
- cot a :.::: ' hat'.
" i a '
~
P00R 0 %INAL . t )
- , r- -r,., -e r---,, -- 4
r 2926 t 1l [ C Attac: nant '.' . in your testimony.
'J:2vid10 o A Oh.
3! O Tharc a srn11 a. row is on the lefthand portion 4 lI which ic me. tina t, poin to the part of the velocity limiter 5I i that formc the :.:21. 3 l A Yes, ihere ue wrote "ceal area." 7! 0 Ex 2c2 me? B,l , i f A *ihers we netea that the seal area -- 9'v ll 0 Yes.
?') P-
; A Yec.
11 1'
, 0 Ucw, above that vertically there is a portion of 1?. ,
[ the velocity '.initer that in effect forns a cylindrical G$ umb:'ella cvn ha sual arca; is that not correct? M l f A Yes. 1S i O In tiet called .hc dec21erator? 1C i
! A Wall, tha --- it's the velccity limitar, yes, l7 cir.
O So won if I hr.d : grecsly deformad ceci, I would 10 :! still have that uppar fla:;gs portion, if you will, of the l i Mli volccity limitm that wou:.d serve to prevant a maximum l i
,32
~
outflew of rah: . is than correct?
. ., a j l
~~
;f A Yet becan;:e there would be a pressure d op acrocal l i
53 ( it. A t 8 (
~'
G 't . .nu:2,. you alco t stified that as icng'ac ;
~
tho rcef.2 icn . ; : c w:; 2r limits c5 hhc ULC regulatic s l
n 2927 davidil 1 fcr cecupational axpocure, you uould not personally be concern 2d; n, f e' 3 is that correct?
;) A ThaSs right.
14 0 Are yeu pertanally fe.miliar with the Jetailo of 1 9 the regulation nr.d enfcrec::.cnt of the "as low c.s reasonably i a j achievabic" raqcfrments fer occupational expcauron? i y A No, that's sn area -- like I said earlier -- that 9 cur other branch tahan er.rc of. g Q Are yc u anarc of the -- whether the !ir.C is also 20 concerned with renitora.ngsuch things as ongoing maintenance g procedures of cpr.ratine; ttilitica to sco if they cro , perfor:ning thingt in : :a:nn:r that is consistant with the j.2 'j . g' .I "z.a lov as is ror conably ar., hic.r.ble"requir: mar.tu 2cr : p) occupational c:r;csures? g A Welle I knew .ro :conitor raintenanco preced.nres, i
.g, The -- uhat is it the rroject inspector deco - but I cannot 7.j g peak for him so to uhet he 1ccha for.
D gf i Ma. r.:ImiE2: A.1 right. I have no furthe.r CaOCOion3. 1D \- - - t 3 C11 air;Xi DIC'*IEOTZMu Ma. Kesi'x. !
,, I (13c TOOpenre.)
~1 : I i
e.n.r,.. .n. ,.. . _. v. . . a,. .n . . . u
. s. . a,.. ,. e y t
-=*a ( ,
. .. ...... . w
. , f. . J s.
.,. . Cu.,
; . . .a,t,, o. - I,
~~
H> . e . se,*, geq *. wa , , g
$qJk o. .4 e w ?w s e
,8 ,
.s % = . ,
-=" ,
- G :.r . :' .:n ,. = caul.3 in fact :typer: tM i
~ s :
It $ l '
1 2928 1 duvidle 1 proposition that ninimising e::posure to radiation is a l 2 i good principle, w3cid j,u not? 3 A Yes, it's a gccd principle. 4 O If th re is 2: cc.ny way of doing that, you l 5 certainly wouldn5 t diur gror. witla accer:plishing whatever that l l 6 meth2 ology would ba? t i 7 A' Now, rpeaking personally -- not for my office -- l yes. 8l Mit. I1ILE: All right. Thank ycu. 3 CEAIE!!TJi SU'HUOIFER: Dr. Fcnkhaucer? 10 : I n' DR. FII!!U11C; En: No questionc. j C11AIKI!T.M E1,!FJIO2732: Mr. Conner? 12
,e i I!R. Comi2R: 1 o, t
a J lI CHAI:t G.N E' Hi?C573R: I belic3 th:t is all the
}a t
questienc the board he. :. I Sclieve the uitness may be 93 l 16l c:tcused.
1 . 6 MR. 3 '.5mCE: Thc.nk you, Mr. Chair.T.an. I d 37 i 99 : like to taks r.he unust:1 step of perscanlly thanking Mr. I
+e, i"
Maura en the rocard f.:,7 corseverine with us this useh. He's, i 3( i frankly put a higher rios:ity on his presence hare than I l r t m.. N' night have, in virt of seco personal reasons why hs might l-t : . y-he elseuhsra. .t 4 1
.,e
' I uc~;id th: 2 - him and nah that h2 he. 2:t:0 sed i! 4
'j
$ .s aa*3 a
- t o r,.
03*ws MO} 35 7dhC.23U: he Mil). 3G ee 1 .07 3 FC*.2 sa -] - , 4 e5
(___. . _ _ . ._._ , . _ _ l l- !. 2939 i
- f. avid 13 1 catch the 6:30 flight.
f 2 (Witns3s a::cuted.)
$; MR BR2NCIO: Mr. Chai man, that concludes all 4 the direct e:.cus and cess cnamination on contention 16.
i 3l It's my understanding that the applicant does have sc2e i 6' rebuttal, but what I would like to do -- if it docr.n't t 7 create probicas for ti o applicant -- is go into the 3ppendix I testimony in an efforb te try to get Mr. 3rits ; gl e 5 1
,3 l out of here as acon ac possi.blo. iia has to leave promptly I 10 at 10:30. At 10:30 torarrcu mcraing he has to 1cava the
; .; , haaring room. (
i !
.3 4.
{ Thera. fore, I v.ould lika to propose that Mr. Rooney ! ;
.g I be awcrn in new for the applicant and right aft 3r tht,
' I Mr. Brit =.
24 . , I i y I lcm the ': Darf. Wants to do that legal argument j
.- .i;.
si gg i at scn.e point, htt I w cid rather do it first thing in the j 9., hl corning then to:ight in an effort to help Mr. Britt cut.
,g ; (Scard. conf.;rri: y.)
end la ! , I e
;ub fic. to'q -
2.0 (:, I i
,r !
21 . ! j f M d j n.} , .
, - - . . , , . , .,,,.,...,.-,.-n . - - . .
JWBeach 2930 fl9 7 CHAIDITl1 BICECEFER: Well, that's okay with ! fois l david 2 .. me. What does the applicant cay on that? The appliennt 19 ! l o I.l
~p asked us not tt hEvo lage.~. nrgunonts during the course of i 4
the day. j , t y MR. C0:mER: ft;. Chairman -- I'm .>.,orry. u l)I
..h MR. IRENNET: the tradeoff would he the same. i i
y In other words, I'm propening that we run the evidentiary k i g proceeding cs lato at ua Lould have otherwiso run the
, oral argumaut tsnigh'.. !
. l.,
!-. MR. CMGEh Mc alt;ays try to cooperate with the 1
4 42 stcff and the witnect.ns, just as we would c::pect the staff
,, l'p to be cooparat17e to 20 And despits Mr. Brenner'c lack f of ecoperation, I thiah tio cocid cecemodate him.
m ; i
,,, (Laughtc.r. )
n j MR. CONNE:t: Er.t 2 vould suggest that wa - as , M d far as I 5 cencarned, for the record, the occff witness l
.j j
,, a can go en first4 3ct Mr. Drcnnar docan't want te do that. j p'
t p Just so there's no mistako en the record, ma would just as l
~ 2: ,
'. , ve.2 have Ya . 3 ita e n acv and take cara of it quic:cly, and i then put Mr. 'uccey on, but if Mr. Dronner wants to do it ;!
v j;
.; his way, in any prae us think this can be done.
..s .
t 3ut I wou1J schit that we simply do the oral
. a.
arrument conich, cnf get it cut of the way., regardless, and then sta: 'c lith , ' i 71dence tomorrow cc ve'11 finich O -
~
MOR nggy ; I
, .-. - - - . . - , ~ . - - -
l _19-2 jwb 2931 I I mean, iths nec as if this is the only other I h q l l]^ , , . .
~ j.'
thing. Mr. Bre:nar also wants to put en other witnasses i
"- about sous of t/m gr.o 3tiens the Board asked. i 1
4 'i MP.. T.1E nTER r 71s Beard wanted ne to. i-r
,J ,
R a CID~11 !NT MOII3C II'ER: Wall, that will have to t 8 li wait :ntil temorrow. b, 7g gn, c yn;ER: An1 you of courso also -- il 3 ,;f CimIR LMI D3HIIC 2FE3: I said, tho other witnesses ' l u 9 !!q will have to unit until tcr.orrow, unfortunc.tely. ! 3 UL iBMTTI: All right, I've got a sugg63 tion, d II d < I do in fact va_1t to put 7.r. Britu on after Mr. Rocney. , U l
- 2 ;; I don't knc:1 mat -~
l f
] 3l CI? air.1MT DE *HIK IrEF.: As far as I'm concerned we 4 can start right acw m.10! r00 whcre we go. The Aprendix I is }
u i
? h; prebably tha :trjer itam to hava left in thoce next two days, S
. 3 ,- in any svof:, in tmr 3 cf time, I don't knc*7 -~ +
c l M2. : ENT : I11 rig *1t, I veuld. propcca that we .
.39 run until 6:00 o'cle.rk tenig;tt, and pick it up at 2:30 l l-i
;9 .: tomorrew morn).ry, if th st's possible. i a ;
1
- 0 g, 1.m. C %tE'i: Mr. Ersnner in tampering with my j schedulo, 7.cw, 1 C :: acc:'.d lika to get in a ucrd edgewise.
0 - i i,q! 77s do hr.re n :: r.ttal pral that we want to use, and but
. ;. for t'u para:7.?1 car 2nic.nce 1:nclved hers of the technical w i ':r.c a s , I v.c r I . c ': agrto to it.
( .. Suh, fer that nurc.ose, 7 . ~. :: $11. l: ECR BRIGI I -
l 19-3 jub [ 2932 L 9 Cn the othnr hand, I do not cee uhy we can't do i
? f
( 2 the ers:1 n::gu:1.!:nt to;tigh.:. Mcw the point Mr. Bronner is ;
.. I
'i >
" t ovarlots:ing, :1pparently, is that the Chairman has stated i
d' ' he vant.ed - ido Sca.::d uanted to concidor this overnight d in c:: der tc he.?c e 6'.ciaion tomorrcw, I assume, if possible. 7 And to thiik tlat -- i 7 II CEA% 31311 D::Cl*H13722: Well, that is one of the --
) ', 14R. MC':Et : -
iupertant things to be done, and S I hh!.nt un she C.d d:r'c e temorrow to finishing the 3 , svidence , ar.d ..f wt. get :hrough early, fine, we can argue i; accitthi.ng elGC 2th let'3.got 'cho evidence in. .
;l i: t.2. . :~ EGIT. t: 7hy don't we do that. Got the a
'3 ovidenec ir.cn .;23 uhora it scos.
.4 (Boc. d :::n:?o:: Ting.)
= un. nf.rm :;;.n;1 Go we don't usste any time, may
'i, I L % --
t7 , ,':n . 'mHri./S23. I hr.vo a few words I'd li':a to delive on thia sub j3ct, mycelf. I am concerned, I have
., just t'.tia ft< :nr,t.n ' recs !.ved the Appendi:: I iccumeat which a
20 ic c!G uenhly :o be liacusced, and I would prefer to have i T a Ohnnc? to h / m amt te. I did not have it -- a chance
..n to rcF. it dure.:*g th 3 .pr ::ecdingc tedny.
.; " ra pr ge::ca ':
diccucs the motion to delay l
,- de?.iva:.m M ?.:1, ':c xrt::.
l
\
' 't . ~/2"i21I 'i:' t 17. Ch0.i: .7.un, MO 2dvi.3Od thG
4 a 19-4 h. b l , 2933 1 4i - a I parties of 2.e n:iatencen of this document the first day. , !
,. 1
-# nn6 c c. m:.':te.t of het, we read acma minor corrcetions into l 4
i l l C : :hs roer.rd. I fen" c kr..o'; 5.There Dr. Fankhauser ucc, but all l t < 4
% partica irc+ a gi':rcn c.piac of the documents, if they ) l ,
' I 3 tre1 0 h zri . ! I I I
,I ,
1 C3ar E N BECF2LE73R; He's talkin;r about the , i i i
, I 7l nt.fi dcccmant. I thir_k he was holding up '.ha c staff j )
I de:rano:n. 3 l 3 ! t
, 1 9 R'. . Er.II .: ?lc11, the same is t=o for the j i
'O atr3f Coen a:.t. hrnd.ad them out first thing Tuesday ;
{ 11 acrni.g. Dr. r.'dm:.ce:r nay not have been in attendance, : O and I'~ cer:y, tr.t "ir. 3: it: has get to got cut of here O and woira .ut -? " cr t.in over becauce Mr. Tankhauser ;
'4 at t:.c.d : vhi.ie sr censic:'.c of the hearings he feels liko
'. 5 att EI tl h ~.g . 1 e
- . r,#m
.. wu._q e-w v e n*.,
_m_u ' sal 2',
. ?. ^_ # . * , *.: a a< h. e u l d I, i
ata.rt :* 2 S pp: Eh: 2 --- 6 K'. . ! ?.EETEL: 1.r. Chairman, ma'/ I r.ake a request j
, of t'r a E0arr I hr.7 . to nc':e a phene call. I'd liks t
.c : po:.nisd.cn :o lanve the cecring rocm, but not start the .
l
, prte:ir..; la cf ho 4:Tti=cT1 I don't fcel I need to be !
l
.hera f;;; c:a r ut nl:nte % 2 will ccmo right back, if I cetld Je thrt.
,n..-~.--....~.m. s.. . .. ..v, n T., m .*.:'*. .".. '.
. C .~
'* >'j'* y *
.'.'.w..'. *'
- ,5!- ]rC. 2. .. ;.* ~ ' I."I23 thO "*O C
f i
, 19-5 jwb i 2934 ,
d
.. o
- j; . 7.'R. OCTdER t
. Mr. Brenner is not going to delay j
( tha .nearr. .;;, t3 .le? : i
. i e r..,,... !
s v .a :. .. ; L.1 7 .v.
. . .C,.,.u_a. . ,- ,ER : .d. o . ,
" ' i
< 22. IE~/:22USTI : Do you have a copy of the 1 '
i d detram;n':? i i i
'a (Cr.t:. .r:d Wat'.e. achn handing document to 1
+
1 7 Dr . 7:n :hc:.Ier . ) j 1
.U. '7E ETI n IA W : Mr. Chairman, are wo proceeding?
i
! ~
s f?G: .:LG '3 :CE02.7ER: Yes, ycu may precend. !
.. k
. - . ?Ta.uren?.:n, l, J _G EA noCMEY I
and i i. I '1 2 AIL 20RGWin
'r rara ra:an d 1.3 witla.3c23 cn behalf of Applicant CGEE o n.1, nn rin: fr r.: pra fica 317 duly swcrn, wers 2::amined and i
tcatiff. d furl:tr na fc Hcws:
- 7. , ':??E . i;G : Mr. licvin Rocncy and Mr. Earl ;
,: 3crp.ua c-* n ~ urain I th 2 2t:r.ad right now. Both havo i f
c 21 ?.ud; En u - avicu31+1 /.:orn. , f m; ::'.21:a :s to distribute to the partiea conies { 1 of App:'.ictrt'; 2:sper:s.a :o the Atomic Safoty and Licensing Sn:S , t.9?a ; :; n::2 2 tha corrections which I rsad into 4 th e rm :ri., .: u .'. v a :7c 2tardcy, or the any Sofere, so that Ii.G h ! "O !"" ' ? h M 03 3 '3:'20 dC;c'.:.CGnt 23 10 c.oin 7 into the .
. % I%5 4
g.Ma 4' es ha-% k .. . p.__ eJq/-
o , e 19- 6 .+vb i,. 2935 f i I. I !! D.CRECT EX?64INATION 1 0 't iff Md. *.GT'.EilDRI: C G Mr. Lo ncy, yo.1 h:xo bafore you a document . f . 4 ontit14d "A.x.,:
- ccnt': Ee :ponse to the Atomic Safoty and !.
Licen.:iag Boar : 's '"wc Cu a;tione Relating to " 0 CPR Part 50, [ Apper.<.li:: I' i
. I
! i.
71 , Did , ou pr: pr.ro this responco to the Ecard's I question? cppo: ring cn pag,as 1423 and 1429 cf tho . 4 1
; trancerf.pt of ~ hic 3:.ocetding?
4 I T A. G7irte.:: R Oros .
*?es, cir. ! l
.1 :
Q. Woca peu in the courtrecm when I read certain , I
. . , correct.cn 'n cc.ruirg tDc document into th3 reccrd? I I
.i. fr rir. ; I N.
' l O. As hece corr.ctions reflected in the accument j i
befera ycu? I l 1 A. YJE c tl.Sy r.TG. t i G M :. i Orrac n, 5 hnt was the c::tont of your parti::. pati.on ; n the pr.: preparation cf this doce.=cnt? ;
- a. 071~.. Oca Oc rcl nann) I provided Mr. Rocney with 4
pouar cos t 2ir: rte v:.sd .4.n his econcmic -- in his cost /bancfits I
; 4 1
1
- ely32 a. .
G I r.c de ::t th d v.on gcatlenen, na correctad, is
., ; this ic.N 2.M ::c r d c.;rract?
. i
- 2. ;' ! ' . x; 3
/ g r. ann) ~13G ., it 13. i 1
l
- k. '((. '- *
- 2.1 7.,' ( 'IOCy $n 13.
ji
.9-7 jub li ~
2936 h. 11
.4 I Q, For .1e racord,It". P. coney, would you briefly 3 '
; atcte wi.y t:.0 ~ P.anga..; I read into the record uere necessary?
I, A. hit.scs 3rcrc:; 'Jcc, there was a transcription l i. orre.: ,~at 2 h:d cede in v.aking my data frca the Ocmputer i 5 cutpuc: in ;;3:-! ermine ny checks and rechacks I diccoverod th: sr .::e e.-d . ac;:.catsf .ho change.
/ 0 Lan: '/tu.
c' C- .:N :.*cu :. httr the elfact of theco chr.nges on the J' cor..cir.M.o c .. toi it yocr tactimony? l
% a, n c -30cet es d o changes have no changa on my l
cc: clue:xns, ?.. :rtse tt a hncfit, if ycu will, in co i
'2 cmell that a v. mc.a in t'.e benefit is still $/er.r, var.v -
t i -
\
< :mell I i s
t i
- RL '; W?IW Ani.: At this time, Mr. Chair =nn, I :
i i
- i uct16 a.co t.J 13.isrict. cf thi3 testimony and I wculd !
i t S . c.ek t*mt ih h i:.iconora'.ud into the transcript es if read. ,' i e i lia"te : :."7M :.a ficiert ccpics t:) the Reporter. , I, i
. , C'7KL Mll? SI OE!F.':iITR: Any Objccti07.07 ,
i c_ . M FRCD2 Sia: Well, I must say that I would j o h i c.c h h t :: a r o . .~gnin, I hcva juct now roccived this
~
cct=t:S a2f. vill s.t protcnd ':h:t I've hc6 an cypor- i
. . :.+,
a... .. p, .. a.. 1a. . ... 1 ,c 2 ":' .. M'."C:521. Mr. .Mirmen, this accut nt we.s ; s'
;ce : J. cer. ? :_- s n< ' put into ths : tail at that ti=e.
..-.s. . ..
.. .u,_,,......,
.....s
.i..
a ~
.s .w.,, _.p,,
l l I f r c . , , , .- _ , _ _ , . , _ , . - - - , , . , - . _ . . - _ , . _ - _ . - - - , -
4 19-8 jwb 2937~ j l 1* Dr. Psnkhaucer a copy now, but he should have receivad j, a 3 .. One through the regular msil. It 'seems unlikely that he f a 3Lo didn't receive :ho staff's or ours. I i a
.s . < *; DR. T.MTIGIAUSES: I don't appreciate the j f
30 auggestion that I am not Saing fully truthful -- I l ! 3y MR. W3TTEEHAHN: I never made any insinuation d l 7d t of that cert. l.
- 1 l
- .l DR. ?a.NFJJ,USE2: I believe ycu said it tins i
- I, 1 2 unlikely that I hcd not r2ceived either of these documents.
- O C@.I.TIItN BECH30EFER: Wcil, I think -- '
iI
- I (?c.rd conferring.) ,
l I ! CHhIRV N LECH 301TE2: Yec, hearing no cbjecticns i I
- S on the merits or on the palifications of the witnoases, .
J ' this material is put in in respence to Board quections.
,3 Pr.d I think at least Overyone who w.s hara at a the beginning oJ the hearings this week was avara cf the !
c::istence of this tectimony. So that we ui~1 cycreals
,; the objection cad anait it.
?M. E.TCETEd23: Thanh *]Cn.
,; (Applicants' Rospones to the Atomic Safety and .
r InicOncing Bean 1's Tvc Que tiens Rolnting to 10 c.7.R. j Pa--t 30, appendi:: I fo11cws.) 1 P00R BRE M
( ; UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION l In the Matter of .
)
)
The Cincinnati Gas & Electric ) Docket No. 50-358 Company, et al. )
)
(Wm. H. ?.immer Nuclear Power. ) Station) ) APPLICANTS' RESPONSE TO T11E ATOMIC S AFETY AND LICENSING BOARD'S TWO QUESTIONS RELATING TO 10 C.F.R. PART 50, APPENDIX I On June 26, 1979, during the course of the evidentiary proceedings in the captioned proceeding, the Atomic Safety and Licensing Board posed the following two questions: () 1. With respect to the cost-benefit balance contemplated by 10 CFR Part 50, Appendix I, Section II. D, the Board wishes to be advised whether scheduling of releases from non-continuous sources (i.e., the mechanical vacuum pump and the dry well purge) could effect reductions , in man-rem and/or man-thyroid-rem dose to the population reasonably expected to be within 50 miles of the reactor. In this l context population includes but is not limited to school children; transients should be included. By scheduling of releases, the Board has in mind:
- a. time: day / night for the dry well purge and variation of days (e.g., weekends /
i weekdays / seasons) for both the dry well purge and the operation of the mechanical vacuum pump. In other words, in this analysis the parties should take into ac- ! count the number of people at various directions and distances from the plant site at night versus the day and on week-ends versus week days. SS$$$$ \ .
, , -. - . _ = . . . -
.= - -- . _. - -. .
O, b: wind direction: whether the foregoing releases may or should be co-ordinated with wind direction and/or velocity.
- 2. If a reduction in population dose may be achieved by one or more of the scheduling methods referenced above, either alone or in combination, the Board wishes to be further apprised of the cost thereof; in doing an es-timate with respect to dry well purge, the parties may wish to segregate purges which may be rescheduled with little or ,
no difficulty or expense from those where greater difficulty or expense is entailed. (Tr. 1428-9) Without conceding the propriety of the questions, their relevance to the issues before the Board or the validity of their legal and factual bases, the following constitutes the Applicants' response. These responses were prepared pur-() suant to the requirements for cost-benefit analyses related to compliance with 10 C.F.R. Part 50, Appendix I as contained in Section II.D. In particular, the values of $1,000 per total body man rem and $1,000 per man. thyroid rem were utilized as required by the Commission's rule. l Board Question 1 ! At the outset, it must be kept in mind that accurate !
)
prediction of wind speed, wind direction and atmospheric stability which will persist during a given release and the prediction of changes in these factors which actually occur l away from the plant over the course of time is virtually impossible.. Thus, it is not possible to produce a decisional O W CRIG!!I
() model in the real world which could reliably tell an opera-tor whether to operate the mechanical vacuum pump or drywell purge at some time or to wait for some additional given time. Fortunately, it is not necessary to have such a decisional model. By bounding the problem, it can be shown that with respect to 10 C.F.R. Part 50, Appendix I, it is clearly not cost beneficial to attempt to schedule releases from non-continuous sources. Inasmuch as the Board requested that the cost benefit balance as established by the Commissioners in 10 C.F.R. 50 ) 1 Appendix I, Section II.D be a framework for evaluating the efficacy of scheduling non-continuous releases of gaseous , l radioactive materials, the methodology described in Regula- l tory Guide 1.109, Revision 1, has been used in a conserva-tive manner to calculate the population dose resulting from the non-continuous release of gaseous materials. The population wheel within 50 miles of the Wm. H. Zimmer Station is highly skewed, with the total population and the calculated population dose dominated by the Cincinnati area (see FES, Fig. 2.1, page 2-3) . This area lies between twenty and thirty miles from the Station in the NW and NNW i sectors. Of a total estimated population of the area for ' the year 2010 of 2.4 million people, approximately 1.6 million people are estimated to reside in these sectors. If l 1 1
_4_ () , a significant reduction in population dose could be poten-tially realized from the scheduling of non-continuous releases, it would be when the wind blows in the NW or NNW sectors im-mediately before these releases were otherwise scheduled. The maximum potential reduction in population dose would result if one waited for extreme shifts in direction and atmospheric stability class so the total calculated man rem dose would be minimized. Less significant reductions in population dose would be calculated for other wind directions regardless of other meterological condicions because of the 1/ skew in population.~~ 2/ The data base used to generate the population wheel ~~ did not include temporal or seasonal variations. Because () the sectors with the highest populations were considered, the ef fect of these variations would not be expected to be significant with regard to the man-rem doses calculated.
~~1/ It may also be seen that the location of a few indi-viduals even in close proximity to the plant (e.g.,
school children a t the Moscow Elementary School) Eas no significant offect on the calculated man rem dose. Moreover, as discussed in response to Question 2, even in extreme cases, it is only cost beneficial to wait minutes and not hours, days or months to release from non-continuous sources.
~~2/ U. S. Department of Commerce, Bureau of the Census, January, 1971, "The Final Population Counts for Ohio,"
PC (V1)-37; U. S. Department of Commerce, Bureau of the Census, December, 1970, "The Final Population Counts for Kentucky," PC (V1)-19. h
The calculation is conservative in that the total popul.ation , O. within 50 miles as predicted in the year 2010 was utilized for all calculations. For purposes of responding to the Board's question, man rem and man thyroid rem doses resulting from mechanical ! v'acuum pump and drywell purge releases have been calculated using the "best" and the " worst" meteorological conditions. l I In this context, "best" refers to meteorological conditions '
'l which yield the lowest calculated population doses, and l
" worst" refers to those.which yield the highest calculated population doses. These population doses were compared to i the annual average type releases from the mechanical vacuum pump, and drywell purge and are presented in Table 1 and ;
Table 2, respectively. From Table 1, it can be seen that under most unfavorable meteorological conditions, a calculated population dose of 6 man rem by immersion and inhalation dose of 3.0 man thyroid rem would be e::perienced. This condition would occur 0.46% of the time. Similarly, under most favorable meteorological conditions, the calculated population dose is 0.008 man rem by immersion and 0.004 man thyroid rem by inhalation. Using the guidance of the cost-benefit balance of $1000 per man rem or man thyroid rem, and as the benefits from scheduled releases are additive, a conceivable (but extremely unlikely) benefit
.would-then be $8,988. Similarly, the benefit in dollars for the drywell purge dose is $462.- In order for these benefits O
6-to be realized, an extreme shift in both wind direction and (O
> meteorological stability must take place; the wind direction must shift from a SE wind to a NW wind, and the stability must go from a stability Class G to a stability Class A.
Shifts less than these will produce correspondingly smaller benefits. 3/ In summary, a " guaranteed" reduction in calculated population dose would occur (see Table 1) approximately 0.46% 1/ of the time if one could wait some indefinite and unpredictable time for meteorological conditions to change. l Board Question 2 The mechanical vacuum pump is used during startup to remove noncondensibic gases from the main condenser. A I 1 delay in mechanical vacuum pump operation to allow for l O shifts in meteorological conditions would therefore cause a delay in plant operation. The cost of such a delay would l depend primarily on whether the power required to replace l
-~3/ For example,.a shift in wind direction (no change in stability class) to the NNW from the NW, for example, would only reduce the calculated dose for the mechanical vacuum pump release only from 6 man rem to 5 man rem whole body and from 3 man-thyroid rem to 2.5 man-thyroid rem.
_4/ With meteorological conditions other than speed of 1 m/sec, Class G stability, and NW downwind direction, there is a possibility that waiting a change in condi-tions could result in higher calculated population doses than would be experienced under releases existing at a particular time. O
L the Zimmer output could be supplied by units on the Appli-cants' generating systems or whether the replacement power would have to be purchased from other utility systems. If it is assumed that replacement power can be supplied by other units on the Applicants' generating systems, the estimated fuel cost penalty (i.e., the cost of generating replacement electricity utilizing more costly fuel) associated with a one day delay in plant operation is.$169,138. 1/ The estimated cost of a one day delay in plant operation if all replacement power is purchased from other utility systems is
$960,000. 5/
If the one day delay cost of $169,138 associated with
, utilizing other units on the Applicants' system is used to-gether with the methodology of Section II.D of Appendix I, 4
the cost of each minute of delay in startup would be $118._2/ If the 9 man rem reduction was converted to dollars by. multiplying by $1,000/ man rem, it can be seen that even in u . the extreme case presented, the Applicants could possibly delay only 76 minutes if it could be assured that the extreme
~~
5/ This estimate is based on individual simulationn of the Applicants' generating systems. The actual cost would, of course, be dependent on the length of the delay, as well as load characteristics and unit availability. _6/. Assumes purchase power is available at a cost of 50 mils /kWh.
~~
7/ The $118 value is calculated by dividing $169,138 by 24 times 60. This is of course an approximation. See n.5, supra.
change discussed in response to Question 1 would occur.-8/ If the power was purchased, a wait of only 14 minutes would be cost beneficial in the extreme case discussed. Thus, for any realistic case, it would not be cost beneficial to wait to operate the mechanical vacuum pump. E/ Conclusion The above analysis demonstrates that, utilizing Section II.D of Appendix I to 10 C.F.R. Part 50 and Regulatory Guide 1.109, the above calculated benefit which could result fro'n delaying ope' ration of the mechanical vacuum pump or dry-well purge warrant a delay of from 14 to 76 minutes and from 1 0.7 to 3.9 minutes, respectively, assuming that meteorological ; conditions would, in fact, reverse during that time period immediately prior to release. Obviously such results are totally unrealistic. It is important to emphasize the con-servatisms employed in the analysis; the releases involved will have no real impact upon the population with 50 miles of the plant. Accordingly, no limitation on plant operation involving releases from the mechanical vacuum pump and the drywell purge system is warranted. l L 1 1
~~8/ The 76 minute value is calculated by dividing $9,000 ,
by $118. l () _9/ Similarly, for the drywell purge case, only a delay of from 0.7 to 3.9 minutes would be cost beneficial.
O O O TABLE I POPULATION DOSES FROM RELEASE OF MECHANICAL VACUUM PUMP SOURCE (EACH RELEASE) Average Down Wind Wind Percent Dose Dose Wind Speed Direction Stability Occurrence Man-Rem Man-Thyroid-Rem 1 m/sec* NW G 0.46% 6.0 3.0 1 m/sec* SE A 0.37% 0.008 0.004 Annual Average Meteorology Ground Level Release 0.4 .0.2
- Dose is inversely proportional to wind speed 4
O O O TABLE II POPULATION DOSES FROM RELEASE OF DRYWELL PURGE (EACH RELEASE) Average Down Wind Wind Percent Dose Dose Wind Speed Direction Stability Occurrence Man-Rem Man-Thyroid-Rem 1 m/sec* NW G 0.46% 0.04 0.422 1 m/sec* SE A 0.37% 0.0001 0.0006 Annual Average Meteorology Ground Level Release 0.005 0.030
- Dose is inversely proportional to w'ind speed
.N ;
t-3 2933 19-9'jwb Ij MR. IETTERHAHN: Mr. Chairman, because they are ', 2hi the Ecard's questicac, 2 don't know if the Board wants j '
- a. .
34a to ask any quecticas it has of the'witnsacos, first, prior i 1 4 ;. to any permitted azanination by the other partisc. . V , 5h . The witnessac rra available for examination by iif the Board or by the other parties. l l 1 7 '; BOA 7.D ELWHATION !
? ,
i t G1 BY CEAIRM22 EECH3CEFER:
,c ; G In cur quu tions, we wars talking abcut releasec ; l 4 1 from essentially two nencontinuou:1 sourc2a -- the mechanical '
- 0 ' d. ;
- 1. ij vacuum pump and the dry re11 purgo.- l 22 Just for the centinuity of the record, I realizo.
'l 2 ['; thic is in the PSAn, but could tha witncase3 repeat tha k, frsquency that those atents will take place? }
.i
, i,
- s , E (Witrocs neoney) The predicated relaccos for i-
. 1 e "tih1E'acurces for the purpeso of ca.culation are fcur releases i I
. per year of the mochtnirfc1 veceum pump, and I believa 24 l 9 ,
, relensas por yt2r for the dry well purgo.
i'
, The duration ray ho found in the table in the i I
,; f! Final , 'Environmantal Statsment, and this is fcund --
- it is" in the En7drentuntn1 Statsmont, I'm serry. I can't n- find it right now. ,
+j G. Wall, I jnct msnted the numbers 'in the rcccrd l
at thic stara.
, 1 If 2 any, sir, it's en page F - Tabic 5.5.
j,
r , d ! 19-10 jwb H 2939 ?
* !I The Sov.rce B ic the mechanical vacuum pump, 4 timea per ;
R ' V 2j year for 24 hours; Sourcs C is the dry well pur;2, 24 f g 3 q times a year for 2 hours, j a lj O Neu Wrnin3 tc the first of those, is that 3p operation carrf.cd on only at i:he timo the rsector is
, e "i .
starting up? 7l 4 A I believe so, yes, cir. ; i 3 .],. l O And uhat about the accend cre, now, the 24 from i
- 9) the dry well purge? How is the roacter in full cparation A : :
E !i when that occurs:. fer tha 24 Hmas por year? i n ' t r: ;) 3. Ther.3 are nany ;cssibic apprcaches to requiring l i
'l 12 ; dry wc11 purgo. It is rt? und2rstanding that on the Zir=cr ; i i I l
;3 Station, because of tho 1scign, the dry well pur3cc will J 1; take place at -ahutdenn net during operatien. For purposes l 1
g , of calculation ce made that accumption. ; l
- \
I J Gir. Bromar raturna to the hearing.) , G Mew in making your calculation, did ycu do any -- I
- - did you attunpt to evaluate whether en the latter en
.. particularly, whether releasce during the day or during n j the night heur3 veuld nahe a differenes? Did you figure i
- s. ;
. differencoc in populaticu 1ccatien day and night?
g, 3. Unfortunataly ::he data maac thnt was ucsc was the 1970 Cannua, phiah in cerbinaticn with the 1960 Cansus l for Kentucky and Chia, was e:trapolated to the year 2010. O 3 Tha variat?.onci por=nnel frcm hy to night, we l k ](
,4 2940 19-11 jwb[
,~ ,
*; felt could not be obtained frcm this data hace. Ecwever, j L ,
2 i it is conservctive, '.n tr.at I believe tha entrapolation ; q 4 0 of population has bacn 1:: creased by abcut a factor of l -
"' y 50 cercent.
l d 5't Well, but schat I was wendering ab ut is, in termo , ; .: of the directicn of the 1eleacca, if the population varied i ; il 7 .ii greatly day and night, it might make a diffaronco,
. i.
8 j A. For the pr/ pose of performing coct-benefit, we ' D; accused the worat di:ention. Me accumed the worst ;
,O '! metsorological conditions that can caist mathcmatically, l ,
) )
.t
! ! 'l s and this in ermence la what we ara referring to hy G and ..
> g
!?. -l 1 metor a coccrd. D arn accuming that the vind bicvs in !
a i I i.: ! the direction of the nortticat stetor, which containa ths. largcat popuhtien, :..nd thic population in, defined in
- r ' tha envircnm2ntal st:.tucant en ?igure 2.1, page 3-3. .
He arbitrarily namraed that the wind er the )
. i
;" ' metacrologicci conditionn of the atmosphtric conditions, ,
3 , at2caphoric dieperaion c.onditions, were et thair very ) t
's , werat. .
.r. l In additiot, to that, un made the assumption which i
t Rsquiatory Guide 1.1'C9 uces, fc the purpocca of cciculating
.:1 population descc, an.! ':het is: That the releaca,, if a t ground lov31 rolsaca . ::cgardians of chetion decign or ellmatic condi.:icnc,. in ::3ality tha :tatien is Socigned y; . to previda za uhv4'-d "uca frcn 93 to 59 porcont of tha
11 : i I 19-12 jwb[ 2941 i. 3 iI time. ' c, 1, ( v ) ; . G Fall, my ten 1 quection ic: Dces this take into j 3 acccunt the day 2nd night dif:?cre.nces? What I'm trying to 1 l driva at is: If, for . :stanco, nou you say on thic dry
; nell purge whirh is done H timec a year, if they ucre donc ;
I
, at night rath.r than in tha daytimo, would it nako a y difformnca? Itu ths'c.'c e; hat I'm trying to detorcine? j
- l
- 3. Ma acm2me thnt it ic going to blev in tht: worst n direction to b. sur i aue:.ine for calcultting whether er not i g
a benafit = cult ha 2 chi.a.ed. ' O nut phnt I'm trying to drive at ic: I'm not sure t'
,3 Uhat differ nac thch Ink::s hoccuse thare it y be no delay .n. .
at all if yn p12n t. do it at night. You- practenbly do l 1 7 .'.t in the dayt::2.3 bt.:auco your peracnnel cro there. There nay be nr. 031g at a..1 t:.. do it ct night. "Icur cost might
.- be scro, er t1>t a;C:.r: cont to hira pecpla et night, and
, that's uhnt : 1 aa tr: fang to driva at when we ackad the
,, quoction.
3, Y23, sir. In .arforming the calculatica, vs took the population Out t: 50 miloa. We accur.ed that bc.twacn day cnd nirht -het t' e p.:.cyle vill not leave this 50-mila do, t0 W. fat have a fou people cc.mi.ng in
~
, uh 20 . . If ihrer ccmpcarte 3 *:y poopi . Who are gcing out.
ad .co :ror tal.::it g about the seder which is Y $ k J "c:21.vac t, u. ich in @.o nr ^.010 wd ' ' ava '323,73". percennal. d,
19-13 jwh 2942 9
*h The cost / benefit a.nalysic, or the benefit calculation was 1.
O-e
~
;; deternined for thnt racter.
1
. i
~
30 . U3 did ccuridor cuch things as recreational i 4h facilitics, fer o=ct.ple, oports arenas and things of this t U nature, the number of persons that could be at such a
'3 -
facility la small c:npared to the numbers that ue'ra dealing 7 !! with as far as the peptlation is concernad. ,
?Y Q. Un11, do ycu accumo that every percen in a J 50-mile croa is going to raccive the came dece?
- D 7. Ro, cir. I tsrums the doas distribution will be ;
in ac: cud uith the peptiction wheel. As wa'get farther ,
'2 l awar 1:cm the ctation, the grid gets -cocrner. I believe .
2 tha whcol is 10 mile deep and 3 miles wide.
M S Hou do yen calculations take into acccunt the
'3 prascr.ca cr abotnce cf s'udent c in the school in figuring
~? your cm.:.culaticn at *.aricun tinss?
_j i
'~
A The ca2cul: tion tahac into account the 1ccations j ) of percennel, as defined in uha 1970 Consuc cnd !. t t
- - entrapc?,ctad tc the 'ec.r 3010.
. The childran uli5 wculd' h
I i A - attend the.9erecu &icol, according to this compilation j ; 2 data and p23jectieno would be acsumed to be at their j i
)
Gnd EC
. IGcidJrOOS !
dr fcla ! ee f
,* [3 pg
I fr23 arl 2943
; (Bon.;d conCer:.ng.) 3 r
1 3 .Q Nor what "'n ;rying to figure out ia the worst
'1 e ; ctse of -- tas orst 7ane of the night and the ucrst: case of
.i 2 th0 day. The ci.lculsc. ion: don't ceem to hcva tahan that into
..- I cc:ount. M.d '. hey Er.c,tce chat that is the sano?
t 3 , A It ra.y bc ..sueind that way, yes, sir Thecalcula-! 1 i r tion asaand tre, trorr. condition that cculd a: ist 7
! t t i 4 irraspcative 02 whether i ; were day or night. For 2.nterest i i
s
. l va did this study of %he Say-night variation, inscability ,
4
! clach G v2.th ema meter n .second, blowing into the nortnweat i
sector eccuro il hourc, En two years. d4 l t 5tah'.lity clas a G at one meter a second bicwing l. I k., into .ar ncrthw st sector in tha daytime had seven occurrences ! , v.,
! in ttro par 3. l'o if rno 'rero to consider the variauion l-1 between aay and night- ye.1, ona would make the accumption ,
1
, '
- hat O.1 cc.. dint.o. th..tuodid lead to tha highest'doce would 3
1
' be xcra likely to oriat at night.
Eowever, 25 honra a year is a small nurbor. a
. , 'acard cer.ferr".ng.)
,s ,
,, C Junt to cir.r:.fy, that's based again solely on
- s. .
1 mat 2cr:~.cn.ic a . :enditiens , not on distribution of people; is tic? corrnc:? A t.a , cir , i : e ased upon the d'1ributien of peop:.e. o..
.I hund ut vtu.te the hig~:sst group of pecpla worn, and I 3,
. Tai ' I ' a gc '..'; .c han tha Ncrat ratocr:1:gic:1 c nditions,
~
. ,, a WCr g?Oup C p20plo, and hCO'S my POOR ORIGINA .. -
U
.ir2 - 2944 :
;p calcu lation. . .a sorr" if it's not that cicar.
a '( 2 0 0;cd conf :r::i ig.)
% Ii D?. . 3CCP m:
-l. a O !!r. ~'x;iey,, one af 'de premisas for this whole
- . thir.g na tha i.:t thc:: th: day-night distribution of people i.t 3{ ia ... :: ca n:.u. ?oep:.e a:e working in the city in the t.
; ',' dayttrm er rc.tec Sing, ind they're ecming back to the
;h snba.ds dt:ing 1
.a nig W .
;, L v L a yc n t:1ki that factor, the day-night
- c :, disi:c:thu. ict
. o.' _. eagle into acccunt in your analysia?
.1 SicciJicallr, na, sir.
.; t; All *:' gat, chat tamworm it.
i,
..t. E7 C'Tr ."IZ4AM B:.1C.LCEF3R: t'
. .;. O N.r a i..I tarm) colely of the drywell purg3, first I
.y
, c o 2.! 2 it ha Tor.*f.naly 1cheduled c.t night, and vould that . .
1 e i
; coa t mora Kare '*. hon waata rer it is when it 's scn:.sdulsd now? I A T~..a e:captien that wa made fer the drywall purge tras :het it ,cul. occt:- at chutdown. The Pcrecco could -
I
,g i
pot.;aibly ba i.ta rorctcc outage, which would requira d e dryac11} t 6r , purga, could put tne ot. tag.3 in a critical path, delaying 5he
. tise wcult: illaJ E2.e c.citi :21 path. < -
'I : w : an yc" ca ? ?cu schadn'.ad it Jer chutdcwn, ca.3 na t 0.1n c.. .
ia ::L'ica #.en it is shutdcun, cr dE the t ~ .s.
. m. s . , , . > . , . .
. ,4. .
u:
- v. .,,.1 : ..a
.~ o ..
9 u .p , ...<.
. . . . . L. ;. v.
( ., s
- . . . .-. . .. .. - -.- . _ _~ .. .=.
p
'a
.or3 .J 1 2945 i
i 1[ r Q At shut".otm. 2 ', , can you schedule shutdcwns, or do they occur i j 3' fcr other ree.acr.2? I mean the types of shutdcunc at which i.. 4 drytrail purgao w:uld b2 curried out. l' 5, A I can't an ucr that quest' ion, sir. S Q Could Mr. Taargem.nn? t
," A DJitntss Sorgmmm) Normally you would try to i achedule a shutdsvn, har (2.cre would be other times when 0 the unit sculd be forced off the line, and so you'd purge ;
p
- 3 the drywell.
lf
"; , Q !nt narnally you do t_y to schedule it? ,I i
11 A ?Jdl, nornr11y vou tr r to schedula the operation ii c (
?, of any unit, yar, s4-t 4
.: G night. },
- i t: it m::a difficult to schedule at night !
, i
- .: than in the daytima? l
-c A It ce nd b2. It could he. I thint: the peint !
of this whola study ic to take the worst casa and obew you i' !
\i i
- c hew many do11are you hwa to play with as cc:: pared to the ! ;
i
. r, net coat of not having the unit. And you hava a very few
{
.- number of dollars to affentirely move this ono vay Or the !
. ;; othe.: . :!:rr.11y wa'd liko no see a unit got thrcugh the
; _eak
- paried. .Prd ncr:11; 70u would taka the unit d:va e.t night, nc=r.~.ly en Friday night, if y:n had the 01.o1:c, to
. gtit ver th:. vck ;er:.cf. So tema o j';/azh.out
?%'
cr4 2946 ! l a :
- f. 4 1 y This whole study is carely pointing out the value of this
!! t 2' unit to :na oons:s when it's rr.nning, as oppoced to the n
? nrr.her of dM. ;u s that yctt really hnve to play agninst that i
'I
-- value ehen the unit i:, of:~ the line, and how ycu can manouver j i
9; the unit arct23. It'c a I:ncter of minutes thct in can i i 0 justify offic:.sily:cht.dulf ng the drywall purge er tha i l
' l 7' mechanical vn*.= .ptrgs. That's the whola purpece. !
1 I Q I rsrli=e that. What I was trying to determine
?.
{
) unc thether yet scheduled all thsco things in advanca,
;c whoid.rtr it's acrs difficu".t to schodule it for one paried S,
;I of cima c:: br r.nother, i
)
i A It'c Jora difficult to take the unit cut during l I
- the peak perict of the (ny. You nor=cily would not schedulo a
_: unit to cene f.c n du::.ng the any. You norna11y vculd I r schedule it te ecme dc wn in the early evenino ~ after the 1 i, pon::, no.nf.ly en a Frid.a, evening, scmething like that, j l i
.- Oct d con!.'arring.) {
. E.Y C A!MOL LEGSOEFER: ,
l Q Co in termc of your normal schodsling, then, t g if you i. cra Ic.ching a:ctnd not at the entire populatica, but i
. at the sci. c'. childr r , your nc:r.a1 ccheduling wculd probably he banoficial, co to cpoa';, to then, if it chonid sc down on 7:idav n:.f:t f or : ns t .i. ace?
A _Lf ytu =chc th.t asannption, that'a right. F e g C 71 . . 200R CRIGINA
}i.
ar5 !! 2947 o . 1 "his is csida from operational reasenc for it.
.o
- )
s 2 A 'Sh R i c richt. h
.T. Q 33. -
4 CI.C:EiAN TilC3E:EFER: I think tho witnasses can he c? ail.ab; 2 :.: croc.3-ex2.mination by the varicuc parties.
'1c . 2Mik, do 7:>u want to start?
7 "S. MOSI7. IIe havo no questions.
; CSAIWGN 13! C~iE32FER: I'll lot Dr. Fankhauser collect aic ': . nut?htF. a :Di.Oute. t o' .::. Iteile?
J., H22LE: E cava a doc.=".cnt ! %. not 2.ntirely J gt familix: with, I den t know if these witnessau won't be p <? avri1 E s -- I.; the S':aff han crocs-e:camination, I'd like r
, to defer nc:. .at thaa .im I might he able to tall you 3
whether 1.n h e I ha/3 my incotions at all.
'Q . DRIlui 'l: I3's not going to get much time
)
12 M * :; iny Tr ?.... .g on no. CH l..n J D.M DNCZH02753 : 'dhy don't you proceed. CROSS OM 3?JGD 2%M:INATIO:7 3 2? c:H. BRIIDIUR: Q T l:. Lily cc.l , F.ve One question.
.::. ;-r:ney en .?ags 4, did you na:n an'i corrsctions ,
on the: mg: icy, t .13.'.17 acntt 5:ing ravi.:.3d? Jus dM "u, C.: . tcE2;? O. . .h ~ ? '. o.Sc 7e c:ra" ^ :0 .
2 are i
'I 2948 i l 1
t i i
<. Q "~ .m fou 3:.'.y in the northwest, or northwest sector, i
' l 1
D:lould " . .: 30 ? rem tc.o nc c:' hwost or northwes : cocter? ! s t
". : c . rs it wou..d bc :> hen the wind blows in l
f. J the t~ n .rs . .: r: .or : *.-no . :hrii.n t , so it's wind from the . E cou te.- ;r O. 1-: . y
> Mo --f.nutt plnass. ,
'9 4.,
- t. . . m 1. a .
.c: ser if ur.de:: stand this, because the 1....e_
. . . a s..c.d .
a z., e ..4 ..- , t,
. o c .._. . ... ,. 2. : a c 'ro . o:. 3L:t:.f ring that you uculd get the most .
l
. sign!.f!.; :.nl : , . ion in ppul.ation dose by acheduling i
, l 1 ralee.a L v'2 3 - w wini bl %;s . ate the northwest and north- ,
*~
-6 ? nort'a r :: -.c- Th .t 13 1i I wera a metecrologist, I l
. 9uc03 i - ct: 1 .21.1 th2t a scuhhe?.at wind, a south-southeast
; vind. Ia t u.t ' u.t yan a:n tnatifying to?
I A '10 , c:2.r . That i r.n caying is that the mo:timum ; i he.rn.it 'ic. c.12..! he gai.,3d " auld bo wero I to hava a eo:: thew . t .qi n :h h .gh : chi:!.ity and icw wind speed,
<c inr::: .nn s ta t- a, angi :e 1 nc:th.7es1 wind with very high ,
13 . , s .......c.,., . c ? I :dar : dan.:i that now. Thank y.ou. 1 1 v.. m., ,... 3.
. . . . ,a co
.e.,,.a.ar
- s .t4 ...:,.,n.a.
1 a: . --- ~ . .:t. . - .en. .
.t .. us. A .,.,
. i,, 3 - ,,u p . cady y *w*.
.u...-"~.'::
. . . ..,-.t.,,c..
3 m...
- s.a,s.2 /.L n !. 3' :4,C.w,3 w-4
- s. . *
- u...u . ,.a. , l
~
ar7 2949 i T ij what it talls m3 is that you takt the worst situation that 1 [: could anist fro.a there two sources and you figure a ' find h 3p direction in c cartsin dir:ction that's part of your worst v it
, 4 i. nasumption s and lien yau f igura out what the total manrem 3 dose would b 3, .'nd the i uh it you want to do in then figure J, tha cost-ber.sfit acccc4.ated with removal of that F
7" typically werct situatf.on, right? J3 ' A (Micnona Rconey 'Ica, cir.
- ? Q 2.nd I casum<> that when you are balancing uhat L
h
.", ; tha worst situation michi: ao, the way to determine that is I i
;, look at .;he ?.re.ic of higheit population, that'a where you
.. get manr a.
i t. A Yca.. :ir.
, , , O So it doesn't maan, however, that an area so closa
,j , to the r uctor, or cloco to the utility iteelf, that the I
', l
/ ccno anomt of et dioacrivity might be cuperienced by a !
1 < t t fcwor nm.Ger of peopla bu c. I acauma that then vould reduca- ' i the ecst 42nnef*t theorr, or the cost annlysis, thatuculd e ; reduco the bcno:.!it of the cost of reduction of the radioactive i l dischargu? f f A A remil nun &ar of pec pie close in to the reactor ;
~ l ac :uring -- uct. 6 bu icr overecna by allegod populatt en a distance .L:= tha rm stor, when va ara tal%ing abett man-ran, yes, ci.:.
O . Q I -jv.: t / nr a: Itha cure I understand new.
l - I 4 ar8 g 2950 l t 1 In fact, the smeller population closer to the j l () 2i reactor could in fact be introduced a to more radioactive 0 ) emissions, but yet the ccat-benefit would be less, because l 3 l I
,j there's not many of thca; in that the idea? 4 i it i !
u 3 A That is correct, yes, sir. The manrtm is t 9 !
; product of the dcas to thra individual times the number of f d ,
[
I individuals who receivc that doso. i l v b Q So this really tells us essentially very little
? d about reduction in ter s of reduction of radioactive I
I I
.O smission in terms of tna populations very close to the ;
n I a i 1: uj reactor within five miles.
-l 7
- Becausa it is sparcely populated, the cnly thing -
a r~' ::) ]itcantallusisitsimplyisnoteconomicallyfansiolo, ; k-) ) l' i alth:gugh they may be receiving tha same nacunt of radicactive
.. emission from the plant, o:. moro --
i MR. 323NNER: Mr. Chairman, I cbject to that
// ,- question becanne cf the conclucienc put in.
It =ischaracterize's. 1 .
.c j where *,ce are wi'ch rospect to the conte:tt cf this tactimony ,
-1
- and the Ccmmission's r37ulctions.
'c Mr. Esilo, I think, has forgott3n that ua are not i i
r- looking at the individral dose requirements, which the ! tactimony raflacta vill he mot. 7his question responds
+; to specific Doard quca'..icac as to what further actning in reductica thera :uld ~::3, co the fact that Mr. Reor.sy's O .
e c u =cny ece m ~ e=e uh= m e=ive = e es m .e l
ar0 -2951 l 5 1,. people might be intercatead in with respect to radiological 2li doses is meaning 1 css, and any questions along that line I o l 3 would be beyond the Bon.rd'3 questions. l
- t .
j Jb Thic is a v:iry specific question as to the manrem di Uj winding down, and thct's why Mr. Reency prepared what he l l ! 3] prepared, and it2 s why Mr. Britz prepared what he prepared. i
- i 7n l
MR. ICTTEFJIMIN: I would alsc note th'ta tne ' I a i 3 Board's questions specific 2117 reference Section 2 (d) , which
- 3j is the manram portion of it; the contentien relatinc l !
10 ] to meeting Appendix I at the schcol has already been discussed.; L
,; U Ue're not going to retread that grcund, I hope. ,
i o t3 HR. lidILE: Mr. Chairman, I could have boon in ! i a: carrer as to whnt the Eoard was aaking. I thought the Docrd i
-: t i 4
was interested la kncning what the cost-bansfit analysis !
\
- 3 l the company could do rith ras:2ct to reducing emissions j t \
,;. , having effect on peopl,3 ve.:y close to the plant was, and !
t g" as I lock at th:.u, I ptess I'm accuming that the fact that f 3 there are fewer peoplo cicas to the plant means that the i 3 cost goes a let higher when you are trying to raduce it.
+
1
- x. That 's what I'm trying to find out. j 1
r,- (Scard corforring.) i i
, MR. 3ME2CR : Mr. Ch2irman thau would be incorra:t because there'a :cret.uiru2nt to do a coct-benefit on
~
individual deces. Tr. Ccznissien was very ccncarned with [ 3 ma::imum individual dea 2c, 2rd .for that rsacen did act want
f j i - ft f i ar10 ! 2952 j 1 I a ! n 3[, to allow the latitudo of cost-benefits. They set a maximum ; U O, exposure and they set it as low as they did for the reasons f
. 1 t i
0 ; given in their rulemaking decision. ! 4l They did net allow Applicants the cption of going , i ! Cj higher by cost-banefit, which is treated completely different ! 1 - t 4 than the manrca populabien. CHAIR'4AN 3ECHEOEFER: Woll, my quaction was dosigned
~' ]h l 3 to explore uhat we considered the only avenun that the t
i
;1 regulations permitted, to perhaps achieve lower dossa.
It was!
]
. :.'; , not nimed specifical.'.y at people cloce by er f ar away, although; i
. :; obviously the resulta run into the calculations, but the l
,: $ question is bounded by the terms of the Commicsion's
.3 regulations which is Section 2(d).
dp ; l
. MR. H3ILE: Well, perhaps you could tell me, then, i 1 1
uith respect to the q?:2stion I asked earliar, was the j i
,; objection sustained or overruled? }
(ScaEl conf:rring.) CHAIRWW DECHSOEFER: I think tha objection is a
; sustained.
. c.
i
; BY MR. EE::L2:
i I
, O Then it is 2crrect to acsume that the analyaic
_ perforrad in the resp msa given by the Ocmpa.ny takes into , consideration tha numh2 of pe.rsona t: he affscued bfa n carticular
~ doca, and tant in ftc" the higher the nt:Oer of r i V
persens is, t:ma th2 nera : cst-bansicial it is te rad cs
aril 2953 j 1 exposure to that larger nutiber of people. Is that correct? 2 sl A (Witnesc Roonhy) If the manrem dose goes up using
.i l 5 h the prescriptien equivulon': for benefits and dellars of I 11 4 'l Appendix I for $1000 par ram, manrom, or $1000 per man thyroid i
~~ i! .- 3' rem, yes. If one had a, say, a million manrem and man I: < 3L thyroid rem to play around with, he'd have $1 million or a p 7 f $1 billion to play arcund with.
!l l' Conversely, if he has one manrem to play around 3 ;;
il 3 . with per the calculation, he has $1000 to play around with ,
;c ! to produce a cost-benefit ratio which is successful per !
;; the prescription.
4
,2 j! O Mhat I'm getting at ic it ccrrect for mo to P
a characterize tha testi:teny as saying it's not coat- ; 1
. ; ,l
.. beneficial because there are feuer people residing in the ;
il tj [ area of the plant? ' g, j; A I dcn't bclieve so, sir. The population 3 accumos all porcennsi reciding within 50 miles of the site. l b i
, O But we wcra talking in the testimeny, ucie we not, .
about a wind dircction in a certain worst condition, and
-.:, ,,.J 'ths worst cenditf.on would be where the wind is blowing 4
in a certain amount of an area which is dnnsely populated, t U
. i or moro densely :populatad?
.i A Yac, sir. -
, O So yen achi wa :ha heat cost-hanefit uhan you 7 ,
, can affect the most p % c by offect in reduction?
l ar12 2954 A I calculate 1 the highest benefit available, i [I ([) 2flyes, sir. O !;- 0 Okay. Then wa t we are saying is the best L - 11 0 'il cost-benefit is skewered EIcause there aro fewer persons in a o II 3 p particular vicinity of the plant. Let's accume that the 3 ( wind is blowing in a direction where it's lescar populated; 7{l' is that cor':cet? Tha cost-benefit analysis then -- benefit t 0 '! dimishes because the casto cre higher based on the fact r 1: 0 ': that you hava a reductica in manrem. Ic that right? l0]il MR. ICTTERU Uni: Mr. Chcirman, that queation is a 1 li J little bit compc And. I heard three questionc. Perhaps we , i- can get one at a time. 1 l O CHAIRt4AH LE0H30EI'ER: Yes, could you split it up? ;
' i
~ 7, ', MR. HEILE: I think I can.
i l
'. 'J LY MR. EEII3: , 1 1
, O ITh2ro :he nt..irems 1cuar because the population is
! l 7 lower, the cocu Joas up in reduction of that manrsm; is that l l l
;r ccrrect? i i
"? , h Mo.
end 20:3
? ,
i , I
.-> l
- I l
d a.
2955 U, david *i Q All right, tha -taar2m is lower in certain areas t 5 o .- . rid 1 I where populaticn in lom.r. avan though the doce would be -- taka 21 3j' even though the nmeunt c:2 ree tivity uculd be the ca:aa? i 4l ; A9 I corroe;. on that?
?
c 4' I; A I wi:o thinking about a differont anawcr when you
"' asked the question.
7 Por tq.a I c:.n c:.arify. j i 3lr Q I:le:co do. ; i A Cha cost of deity or thccost of performing an 9f Ml i action in this ccntent as wo have accumed it, is a 11 > i constant, ar6 thin con tan; we hcve assumed for the 12 purposes of Nrdorning tho cost benefit ratic; it's i i ! C appro:inctely 0:.70,000 por day. ! l M ' And this is the cost -- the bonofit which is
- 4 L
IS , defiaod in, tru; ed niirca or =an thyroid rem will go up M! or down doper. ding upon the numht:r of people being es: posed 9 17 ll and whora thuy r:0a vit a ::3apact to the site. . I d Nf , Q Fine. Oy A Fo charofer i tha coot rentains constanu, but the a J LOh amount of plcyint reon thet yea have varies becanno tho E: O( n benefit pcot up c.nd dum , l t; I f.4 i Q Cc arcntia_.17 is ban 2dit is sc=swhat dependent -- 1
.C. very m:=h do;nr.d;n cn h*:o anocat of population in the
?. ! ] circia ycu'ra cr. ling ti .c 20 milan or 40 :ailes? ,
i b2 'A USOp I. .r . 1
2956 4 Mvid2 Q And it's a Sunction of where they are too. 2 l So it has nothing to do with any reduction of
- 3. (
dosage to persenn cicsar to the plant? It's simply a 4 r:atter of trying to pu:.: it en paper as tro ihe most benefit 5 l by cost analysis -- whure che nest people are affected. Ei > A Thoro has buon . tad there is --
?i
! O The manr?.m J.s d.ipandant on the number of people 3
and not dosego to pernons c.n close proxiinity,
;d "c 't h A It's c. Prodtet of the peopla and the dose that e
Nl i the pecp.7.e reczive. 11 1* MR. Hi'!LE : all right. All right. Thank you. . I I p":' + CIG.ILVI 2EC3HO372R: Dr. Fankhaucar. U LY D1 ITEaOSOR: 1" Q Ifcat was tha ::cdi20 that you considered in your 3e- [; ctudy? i
.g
* : A 50 milan.-
j, , I7' 0' All right. I M 4! And in a:sartling tha leant -- the conditions under E
$b which the u.nr2m doco d
..a t::e laae u, what uculd the pcpulation --
o a f
"* vhat charactaristics w:uld y w give the population in that t l
W, ' partit:ulOr cCg2 MO 33 acrparcd to the TSSt of the GGCO.entS?
]d- ,
A 1 A If we Oan t:1ka d. lcck ac digure 2.1, I thir.:: Ye s
~'l- can get en iden. This ic ?igura 2.1 of tdie 725, I'm corry.
4 s Sij (? un2.) 2.a O so id m leak is. ::.he souticast sceter -- D g p?blNM E h_. "
2957 j O 1 cco the louant population for any t given sector? l. i 4 A Not ne.csostutily. Tha lowcat population -- the 5 lowest population dist:-itution in terms of man: en space. l 1 f 3 Q In cri!cr to!homprohnud calcualtionn that you i 7 made, does it rc5,uire c. cc::puter? 8 A It deco not require a computar. It's facilitated 9 by a computcr. ; I 10 0 parhaps 'p2 could read what the total populatdn it i I is for the cout!what ccctor,
.s f
12 A Yes, cir. In the -- 13 0 19 -- in taa -- let's ace. 1980. !, i 14 A In 1930 it appears to'me like 1000 -- er g3 17,692. ; 16 0 And hw about for the scutinrant quadrant in 1980. j 77j tiR. NIE1EED
- Mr. Chairman, I object; locking 33 nt thic disgram, it en? he an intarcsting eye tant for gg Mr. Rooney, but other than that, it's in the record, and !
g thora's no need for Mr. Rooney to s.tand hero and rasu r,.
, figuras from tha FES.
o . .
'h l 33 '0R. FIdiKaACFE:1: I think if Mr. Brennar -- Mr. ; l J;
,,,, ;l. Rooney is willim; to r.3ut -he soc 4heast 22ctoc -- cr if you would like, I wi: 1 rs w .. for hin.
3
,, ;; MITUT;33 20072": 1930 yc ir --
U f
+ - ,.-i - . , . . _ _ . . , , y&7 y- , , . - g -,w,. ---e
2958 1 david 4 MR. BRENNEE: Mr. Chair: nan, I have an objection 9
, that hasn't been rulod ca.
'J !
CHAIR!MT BE EUCEFER: I was goig to say ha can 4 answer this ons, but d: 3 ica't want to hear all the sectors. DR. 7.MUT A':23ER: No, I understand. 6 BY DR. FANK3AUSER: 7 i
, O Will you re ad it pleaco7 ,
1 1 S A In tha year 1980 it appears to be 13,05G. l 3 ~3o for the southsast sector, it'a 17,692 and the l Q 19
- l southwest sector, it'a 17.050.
i- . Ui A 56, yes, udr. l
,", l. 0 You're right. The circle that I drew around it --
IOf( MR. BREMNEA: Mr. Chcirman, we'va new established I*I f that Dr. Fankhauser can read the chart too. We i 10 cculd have done that in th2 first place. Let's got on with 10 l.t-it, please. 6 17 I DR. F.MGEE03E2: If Mr. Brennor will have a littla il n 10 ; patience. i DJ j MR. W2TTEP3Mmt Pleace ask a question . 20 MR. FAMIHhU3ER- Or a little patience from 1 Ti r evwjone, O'! i; 3ut I thin:.. it is , f obvicuo, frem theos two t f C ha _figuros, vouldn't you agree,_Mr. R;cney, that the 2cuthwest # 1 04 i sector haa a substanti:11y 1cwcr population than the i h 2" j scutheast s:Oter? _ 1 E00RORilNAL
l 29S9 2 /1 L : \ SE 3 0 lica dc yc.u think that wottid affect the cciculatioras. 4 that are shoun in table 1 of the document? That is -- 5 A I know how it wet 1d affect it. This southeant S sector would get a loucr deco in manrem. 7 0 could you a: plain how that is? O A It's a combination of iccation of local people s with reopect to the p:cxi:nity to tha station. O Did ycu do th: ranrem dose for the southwest 11, cection inatcad cf tho scuc.henot and ccmpare thoso two? 12 A I did it for II.!. cogmonts, air. 0 Do you havo that data availabic? (] 13 A In what respect do you mean available? ta 15 , O I would like to comptro what the manram dcsc would I
. jgj be if we had a dcunuina diraction to the couthpoat instead i
g7l of tha soutbaaot. i g! fin. WETT2Ri!!RT: !!r. Chairman, thoro's no h 10l fcundation fer tt.is li2 a of qmtioning. The witnoss han 20 given his reasonc for icing the coutheast sector instead of I
,,1 i the southucet acehor.
t i 33 Thoro';; na cm.n hint that thoro's :iny err 0r in j
. ., j the calculation.
"N DR. Fi"!CIAZ 21.: I think there's quita a i
A y O ..g subst nrial hi 0 that sera m y btt an error in the calculation
/U % ,
2960 duvid6 1 -from the raw data that la available to us at this point. 2 What I'm tr"ing to dicplay here is I think we 3 cannot have a great deal of confidenca in tablo 1, which 4 is presur. ably tha foundation upon which the entire conclusions 3 are drawn frcm this docume:26. 3 (3 card cond2rring.) 7 CHAI2:WI DECH30~:FER: Mr. Brenner? O 14R. 33: DINER: Mr. ChairEnn, this is a poor 9 question. I know the other partiec have a right to I 10 cross ammine. 3ut th-2 cross examination should be helped ! l 11 by the board's pr.rception of what is cicar and what is I 12 , ancicar. l is And I think if vc can get at scr.e direct 14, questions by which Dr. Fe.nkhaucer wants to inquire the l 15j basis for this, fine. Dut the way we're proceeding I. l' 26 ? is no place fast or ro pl ce slow, which 13 even .rorse. I s -)- t CHAIR WJ D2 IHOEFER: Well -- 30 (3cari ecnf arring.) 19 ,. CHL'IMAN B2":ZHOE7ER: I think we ought to know I go l where you're going. Du have a right to try to twplore 4 1" 23 whether there e.ra errors in the choice of the scutors, i i I,
]
a but try to get at it cirschly, il l 3: DR. DlI~GEWC22 Well, in the snarkably short j ! 1 1 '4
^
n ) tir.a I've had t: ntut th.:.3 accc cnt, I believe ttat it's O g very cle:r that thera i:: :n the er h r of roughly 25 or 30
2961
/ ,
/
david 7 I - percent fewer people ia !2o southwest secter than th0re 2 is in the southeast re: hor. 3 I'm just t: cling -- I'm not arguing that parhaps
)
4 if one runs this thrt,t.;h n computer it .msy be corrace, t 3l but cormoa senac says that the table 1 in this doctraent 3:li nay well be in error and nay veil not give us an cec'.trate i 7i prediction of what the coat benefit ratio would be in this 1 l 3 particular .ane. 3 MR. IP.ENti3P Mr. Chairnan, it took him about to eight questions and I dcn't know how many minutes to
. t 11 finally get to the point at which he could have asked 'How 1.2 f'. comeyou've got resa acgraenus with more population?"
. I l r pl That*c al'. h3 had te ask. Finally timt did
, 14 come cut and Mr Rocney answered that it docca't depend i 1 13 ; just on thm total aca6sr.
L 16 Mow, uhat alce doos he want to know? Let him 1 1 77 ask it. g, (Boit.d cen.?arring.)
- I C2.IDHAN 33C.~IFOE723: Is there any question t) t
- ty outstanding?
p;- lj Re. .3R G R 3'.1: l'ha board asked him where hoe was
,4 e.. '!
- a going, and 2 1:hink tha uswer shows ha' going no place. i. ;
l
/
C iI2. M ".?C'E0ZF27.: We'll give him One or tio i ( n- [li tF ( ' " chancas t.o see i.f ho.:z.: : c '::warila catablishing an 4 h Nd %. 30 03 , ! .J us. S. uu J A. go on ' ej ,' j! t 6 E00R nom ..
1 2962 i david 8 g forever on it. l O a so -- 3 DR. FA EGIAUS7.:R: It hac been established that f, the southwest sector do 3s in fact have substantially fewer g population than the southetsb cector. g C5AIPJnN BEC3HOEFER: c We also found 'ha answer 7 as to why, but -- g BY CR. FIJIKHAUSER: 3 0 Uhat fold difference, Mr. Econey, do you think g there is in terms of maaram dosa between the two o nditions g given? That is the wind to the northwest or the wind to the t.outhaast? 12 g A What is the differenoa? g Q Yes. l How mtny fold rcduction vould one get if one g scheduled relances to the ceuthcaat instead of to the le ,p: I northwest? 17 i. i A That will appear in the table -- if ycu wish . 10 : fu, f an e::pected value or probabili ic value, using the very worst matcorolcgy, it s.; pears thsy were talking about a j c. P factor of 100 -- or is that 10C0? 21 !! i sj '
.,j Q I would ec::o hth the laat figura.
-a i t
A About 2 factor of 7f0.
- 25. ll,1 -
i Q 730? ;
?.o i -
A Yac' rir. 15 y . j
2963 i Q Weuld you cr.11 that a substantial reduction in N' rid 9 ! exposure fetcr of 750 fold? 2{I 5 A Yes. In fact, we tried to got the greatsst 4 reduction we couL:i and we went out of our way -- if I may, 5l to put this tabla into perspectiva -- S Q I asked the question: Do you consider that a 7 substantial reduction? 8 A Yas. 3 CEAIR!'AU EE !HidOEFER: I think he can explain his 10 I answer. I 1 pj ! MITNESG RCO:IEY: We ucnt out of our way to f find the highest and what wo felt was the practical lowest.
?2 l The highest is the downwind direction, northwest; the !
3 p, lowest ic the downwind dirsetion, northwest with stability g class G, northwect der. wind, and A in the southeast g, downwind. g7 Wa wo::o trying ="f i ng to search for the maximum gg benefit that vc :ould ucpect under this ralense condition m.. il and we did a study on :;caristenca, which showed it would i gg tako 152 hours for the wind to go from the northeast to the 3, h southeast, irca G to A.
- l!
i ,,,, !! Ecuever, we still used those numbers. )
-a e6 ij IT DR. F.U:1GAUEIR: l
.%:.~ c l'.
yj Q tiell, thank you very .tch. Ycu h;ve indeed ; I
" demonstratsde than, tlat :ubstantial reductica in populatien Pogggggy,g _
2964 david 10 1 c:cposure can be realir.:ad by scheduling releases; is that r 3 corra-ct? 3 Yes or no? 4li A 2 ell -- l' 5! RR. 3"G10iEn: Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure, but l 3i it would app;tr that Dr. Finkhnucer nay have cut the {' 7l I witr. ens off frc:: an c?:planation for that answer. t 8f CHI,IR W1 FE NdCEFEE: Do you have further 0 explc. nation for chst? l h)f WI'S123S 20ClEY: Yes, sir, I do. Unfortunately, 1: , we aredealin.g uich sn211 ntsbers. We're dealing with 12 very, very all nu:abcre. D.nd, you, there is indeed a facter a ;j of 750 hei:vean two very sr.all numbers, so that to state
\ t
;4 that thera would be a sig:.ificant reduction in experienced t
p;j doce is not a true e::;.:rracion of what nurbers I havo li je !) .4 p2aante.d, cry. What uf numbers say is thers is a facter i Il gy n of 150 diff::renc e, y3u. 79 1hort is net a significant reducticn. O g) !! Coa:d cc.7f arring.) , d o CELIM?di .YCCISCEFEn: I bellove that's all the gl I
! l l 3j queatiora vu 'dll ha7c of the witnescos. I guesa they'ra 1' !
- n. ,
2::ctu:c2. 1 1 1
'7ity.acsc3 3::c.1 ed .)
g n- :! S. i.ZZE ? 'M2i:
. Thenh you.
^ '
O ,e
-~
' IE.~. n.UI 2 CI.ZN3723:
. Oc ycn wich ho yat yeurs --
NSUit]ljggi.
1 2965
~
1 avid 11 ,
- 52. BRENNER: Yes, Mr.-Chairman. I'd like 3
to call -- I'd like to call Wayne Britz to i:he stand. To cave time, while Mr. Britz is getting situated, I'd lika 4 to read into the record a few typographical errors in the 51 i testimony. f 6 i.i ./ .
- j. ?!all, when people find the tesf.imonyv'the l 7i I first corracticn wil2 be en page 4. I have additional
]
3} - l cop'cs i hora if 2aybcdlf wants. O I cn pcga 4 tl.a fourth line from to bottom, the l 10 sixth .iord, "tcwnrd"i3 ticspelled. There should be no "a" 11 EdiEween the "r" and ths "d." 12 , - l On page 5, the ai: th line frem the bottcm, fourth 13I l word, "calculatt:d"is misspelled. There should be a "c" . i 14 l 1 I bntween the "1" and ths "u."
;S l
?'.no On par 3 -- l 10 )
4 H CHAn."JJi SEC230EFER: Where is that location of 17 1.> 0 tha': 1ec;t cre? l M
'l %L 3PanCI:: Page 5, sixth lims from the bottom, !
10 '. l
- ' fourth vord. "Osiculated" is micopelled. ,
i l 20 }Y c a.n:GN TECHIO3FER: Okay. l 21 , l j Furth2: dm.n on the same page, the accend line i i c.-
~ : {
f.-.on tha bot cm, firm: *ori should be "of" -- o-f -- :ther ! I iI ! than "cr.' l
~ } ^!
1 kad the laas.t;,Togr phical ccrrectica is on pcga ',
2966 davii.U 7 G, second lina frum tha bottom, fourth word from the end, 2 " levels" is nise,ellcd.. It should be 1-e-v-s-1-S. t 3$ Whercuro1, I i l; W".D!L 3 RITZ 1 0I was callel as a witnesa,.cnd having been provicusly duly i JI weorn, w,a e: nni. icd cnd fatified as follows: 7 DIRECT EXT.MINATION 3 3Y MR. BRTurER: 3 0 e. Dritz, I have before ms a document 1 10 i bosring the ::aption of this procoeding and further h; entitled "S Mff ?.epscnse to the Atomic Safsty and i G. Licensing 3?.ard's Oud;tions Relating to 10 C?n Part 50,
.O Appendirt I," ccr.sisting c:.' ni:: pagcs.
la j ro you have a. copy of this document hafora you? e I: ! 30 A 733. g h. O "a *: $t prepars.: by you or under your cuparvision? y i A '!a s , tr. na;. .
.;g Q .t::cpt for ti:3 'qpographical error, which I j,3 [ just correcuoi fcr thu rc::ord, is it t ne and correct to the -I
- o. best of yerr htvic6sa nnd belief? i
\
~. .r A "as. l
~, O Aad f.c 7:n ade.t it as your testimony in this 1
. . .j pr7:2sc'.::q: ,
, , , t a ' + i 3 .,
s -v t e p =e . 4 as e. .* g .he W pga cmM
~
I l
. ..,e
2967 day.td13 l 2 docunant just 4.dentified be admitted into evidence and 3 ' hound inte the racerd as if read. 3 Copies have bee 4 furnished to the reporter. 4 C!mIR'El BECHUOCER: Any objection? I 3 t, NL MET 7ERHAID1: No objection. J CHAI2mM DF. chi!OEFOR: Without objection, it is 7 aCaitted. 9 ('.Se dccument previously mentioned follows.) e
- e 11 72 l u
M . El Yl f M
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P00RDI! SINAL. . l
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION In the Matter of The Cincinnati Gas & Electric ) DocketNo.50-35[ Company, et al ) (Wm. H. Zimmer Nuclear Power Station) ) STAFF'S RES0NSE TO THE ATOMIC SAFETY AND LICENSING BOARD'S QUESTIONS RELATING TO 10 C.F.R. PART 50, APPENDIX I My name is Wayne Britz. I am employed by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission in its Radiological Assessment Branch located in Bethesda, MD. I have previously appeared and been sworn as a witness in this proceeding on June 20, 1979, testimony beginning on page 765 of the transcript of this proceeding. On June 20, 1979, the Atomic Safety and Licensing Board requested responses to the O ro " o~'"9 9"est'o"s:
"1. With respect to the cost-benefit balance contemplated by 10 CFR Part 50, Appendix I, Section 11.0, the board wishes to be advised whether scheduling of releases from non-continuous sources (i.e., the mechanical vacuum pump and the dry well purge) could effect reductions in man-rem and/or man-thyroid-rem l dose to the population reasonably expected to be within 50 miles of the l reactor. In this context, population includes but is not limited to school l childen; transients should be included. By scheduling of releases, the l Board has in mind: '
- a. Time: day / night for the dry well purge and variation of days (e.g.,
weekends / weekdays / seasons) for both dry well purge and the operation of the mechanical vacuum pump. In other words, in this analysis the parties should take into account the number of people at various directions and distances from the plant and site at night versus the day and on weekends versus weekdays. , and b. Wind Direction: whether the foregoing releases may/or should be coordinated with wind direction and/or velocity. The second question is: If a reduction in population dose may be achieved by one or more of the scheduling methods referenced above, either alone or in combination, the Board wishes to be further apprised of the cost thereof; O .
- M
2 O f a doias ea estimate with respect to ery eii Porse. the Perties mer wish to segregate purges which may be rescheduled with little or no difficulty or expense from those where greater difficulty rEexpense is entailed." The Board also inquired as to the application of 10 CFR Part 50, Appendix I, Section II.D to the Zimmer facility (transcript pages 781-791). My testimony responds to these Board questions. . The Commission adopted Appendix I to 10 CFR Part 50 after an extensive rulemaking proceeding. The Commission's new rule did not specify exclus' ions for performing the Section II.D cost-benefit analysis. Later, an amendment was added which pro-vided that, "The requirements of this paragraph D need not be complied with by persons who have filed applications for construction pemits which were docketed on or after January 2,1971, and prior to June 4,1976, if the radwaste systems and equipment described in the preliminary or final safety analysis
~
report and amendments thereto satisfy the guides on Design Objectives for Light-Water-Cooled Nuclear Power Reactors proposed in the Concluding Statement
;g of Position of the Regulatory Staff in Docket RM-50-2 dated February 20, 1974, pages 25-30, reproduced in the Annex to this Appendix I."
Subsequent to that amendment, the Staff conducted a generic cost-benefit analysis on those plants whose applications for construction pemits were filed before January 2,1971. The Zimmer facility is in this latter catogory. The Staff's generic cost-benefit analysis results are published in NUREG-0389, Cost Benefit Analysis Reouirements of Appendix I to 10 CFR Part 50, Their Application to Certain Nuclear Power Plants Docketed Before January 2,1971. The purpose of this study was to detemine whether or not plants docketed before Jan. 2,1971, such as Zimmer, complied with section II.D of Appendix I to 10 CFR l Part 50. The study confimed that no additional radwaste equipment, when added to the Zimmer system as proposed in the FSAR sequentially and in order of diminishing cost-benefit return, could at a favorable cost-benefit ratio effect reductions in
l 3 l dose to the population reasonably expected to be within 50 miles of the reactor." Values of $1000 per year per total body man-rem and $1000 per yearr man-thyroid-rem were used in this cost-benefit analysis. 10 CFR Part 50, Appendix I, Section II.D in part states, "In addition' to the provisions of paragraphs A, B, and C above, the Applicant shall include in the radwaste system all items of reasonably demonstrated technology that, when added to the system sequentially and in order of diminshing cost-benefit return, can for a favorable cost benefit ratio effect reductions in dose to the population reason, ably expected to be within 50 miles of the reactor." Thus, a cost-benefit analysis considers " equipment installed" in the plant to meet this section of Appendix I. " Scheduling releases" from non-continuous sources is not inter-preted by the Staff as a means to detennine compliance with section II.D of Appendix I. However, to answer the question asked, the Staff has investigated the reductions and costi to reduce man-rem exposure by scheduling releases. The drywell is purged to control atmospheric conditions in the drywell during operation and shutdown. During operation, selective purging would not be practicable as the purging is cone to keep the drywell within certain nitrogen, hydrogen, and oxygen concentration ranges which are necessary for the operation and safety of the facility. During shutdown, dry well purging could be done selectively according to time and wind direction, but at a delay in nonnal plant operations. The mechanical vacuum pump is used during plant startup to draw a vacuum on the main condenser. Advance scheduling of mechanical vacuum pump releases according to time and wind direction would not be practicable due to the variabilities of time scheduling encountered during startup. At the point in time during startup that the mechanical vacuum pump is to be used, hcwever, t.Se startup operations could be stopped to wait for a more fav.orable time or wind direction. O
4 The Staff has calculated that the mechanical vacuum pump operation could contribute 5 O man-rem total body and.10 man-thyroid-rem in a year, and the drywell purge about 0.004 man-rem total body and thyroid. A large variety of time and wind direction scheduling could reduce the estimated man-rem from these sources. -
, I will assume that the total 10 man-thyroid-rem can be reduced to near zero by the most favorable combination of time and wind direction. This places an upper bound on the case, that is the largest reduction possible by delaying plant startup.
I will use a cost figure of $170,000 perday$1)Atthatcostrate,85 minutes (2)ofwaiting time is equivalent to $1000 per man rem. Any other combination of time and wind direction will reduce the 85 min. of waiting time. For example, if a 1 man-rem reduction will result from the time and wind conditions, the waiting time is reduced to 8.5 minutes. Should the extra cost of fuel go up, the time will be further reduced. - The above delays can be applied to all mechanical vacuum pump operations and to those O dry weii gerses wh4ch ere mede derins the t4mes of non-essent4ei nersonnei entry. The calculated dry well purge dose of 0.004 man-rem will result in a cost-beneficial time wait of one-third of a minute. This is clearly a time figure so short as to make release scheduling not practicable. The calculated mechanical vacuum pump dose of 10 man-thyroid-rem will result in a cost-beneficial time wait of up to 85 minutes under the most favorable conditions. The most favorable conditions to lower the man-thyroid-rem dose would be to wait for the wind to blow towar d the SE, SSE, S, SSW, SW and WSW sectors during . stability class A, that is to purge when the wind is from the facility toward the general direction of the school (meteorological dispersion classes range from class A to G). The reason is these sectors contain the least populated areas, (1) Estimate of extra costs of replacement power due to utilizing more costly fuel O s#pni4eo ex nni4a cent's 9eneret4ns s> stems- inrormet4cn cete4ned from ^nni4 cent-
. (2) S170,000/dav = $118 min; $1000/ man-rem = 8.5 min. X 10 man-rem = 85 min.
1440 min / cay 5118/ min ma n- rem
5 and stability class A will produce dispersion characteristics resulting in the least dose. However, the cumulative frequency of occurrence of wind blowing
=~
toward the six sectors, SE, SSE, S, SSW, SW and WSW is 2.2% per year, or 8 days , per year. Varicus other combinations can be examined, but the 85 minute waiting would be reduced because of the lower cost-benefit acheived. It is my opinion that the sceduling of releases according to the time and wind direction is not practical because of the small cost-benefit time frame, 85 minutes or less, that we have to work with, because of the small frequency during which very favorable wind conditions occur to benefit frm this scheduling, and because of the smallness of the reduction of the population dose to be achieved by such scheduling. The 10 man-thyroid-rem is very small (4/1000 of 17.) compared to the 230,000 man-rem the population within 50 miles receives fran natural background radiation. , O The optimum reduction of man-rem by scheduling would necessitate waiting for the wind direction to blow in the general direction of the Moscow Elementary School. This would result in a lower cumulative man-rem dose because of the lower population in that area. Thus, we end up in a situation of reducing population dose, but not individual doses in the Moscow area. Additional perspective can be added by com-c. paring the small cal'ulated dose to an individual due to mechanical vacuum pump operation, about 1/100 of a mrem, to natural background radiation, about 105 mrem / person / year. Also, the children at Moscow Elementary School probably receive an additional 1 mrem / person / year due to the school building being constructed or brick rather than wood (3)This is 100 times the calculated dose due to the mechanical vacuum pump releases.
- 13) D.T. Oaxiey, " Natural Radiation Exposure in the United States," EPA Report i ORP/SID 72-1, U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Washington, D.C (1972)
-- - . . . - . . - ~.. - . - .- --- .. - . .. - - - . . --
6 It is my opinion that Appendix I as written will protect the population from Q the effluents of the Zimmer facility, and that the further refig-tents discussed here would be difficult to administer, would result in an insignificant benefit and should not be adopted. The Commission considered the importance of opera- l l tional flexibility when they wrote their opinion on the Appendix I to 10 CFR l Part 50 rulemaking hearing, Docket No. RM-50-2, pages 31-33: 1 "SECTION IV. GUIDES ON TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS FOR LIMITING CONDITIONS FOR OPERATION FOR LIGHT WATER COOLED NUCLEAR POWER REACTORS LICENSED UNDER 10 CFR PART 50 The guides on limiting conditions for operation for light-water-cooled ; nuclear' power reactors set forth below may be used by an applicant for a ; license to operate a light-water-cooled nuclear power reactor as guidance 1 in developing technical specifications under section 50.36a(a) to keep ! levels of radioactive materials in effluents to unrestricted areas as low as practicable. Section 50.36a(b) provides that licensees shall be guided by certain con-siderations in establishing and implementing operating procedures specified O in technical specifications that take into account the need for operating flexibility and at the same time assure that the licensee will exert his best effort to keep levels of radioactive material in effluents as low as ' practicable. The guidance set forth below provides additional and more specific guidance to licensees in this respect. Through the use of the guides set forth in this Section it is expected that the annual releases of radioactive material in effluents from light-water-cooled nuclear power reactors can generally be maintained within the levels set forth as numerical guides for design objectives in Section II. At the same time, the licensee is permitted tM Gexibility of operation, compatible with considerations of health ed safety, to assure that the public is provided a dependable source of power even under unusual operating conditions which may temporarily result in releases higher than such numerical guides for design objectives but still within' levels that assure that the average population exposure is equivalent to small fractions of
. doses from natural background radiation. It is expected that in using this operational flexibility under unusual operati 9n conditions, the licensee will exert his best efforts to keep leviys of radioactive material in effluents within the numerical guides for design objectives."
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. . . . . . . _. . .- -. . . . - -- . . - . ~ 7.aesch 2969 922 LFTra 1 n BohnD EXAMIt!ATI% esp.m. fois 2 BY CHAIRMAtl BYdCEIOEF3Tu l i dt.vid 'l 21 31 0 Mr. Britz, I'm just vendering - I'll ask yoti l ; 4, the cama qu.estion I asked the Agplicant'a vicasuno.. 'w/ t l l
~
did you handle the Day-night gut stien ir. ':nrr; of population
, 1 6 1 distribution? !!
i 7 A Ife don't have c::act knowledge of where tho I ( I e individual people spend their dcytimor, thui: nightimes, j i , 9, and where they spend their winh nda, enr. their time during i i i to the wach. We just don't ham % .t exact Cenus dats. 1; So what I did was na::im130 thfi case and accuae that the maximmn man-ren, the 10 man-rcrt thy:old for tae 12 f 13 i mechanical vaccum pump uoald go to ::ero, itnd by maximi.:ing 74 diat, I chow that the titto limit of $5 r,tinutaa would ha 1 the coat-banoficial time te wait for t2rerable wind tu.li..
;g direction. Any other ruan11ar ccx.bine.ti.on vocid ho of a i
;~ j naaller time value. ',
' I
;g ! .S tiell, I'm saying, igacre wind dirnction for the i
e.. i moment. Ia it pecoible to dat:rmino whatner it will ba l
! l 20 beneficial to, say, require relances to ha at night?
A. Well, whether it mia at night or day trould 05111 ; 3
= have to depend on the vir.d, M:cuce ti o wind la gcing tA l.
r'asily determino what typa cf dispor.aicn Oc offitents gat, { 3 3kd zo y e a han u 2ncu ut.:, ::.n:cm =! 9
, 1 uhother or non ycu rfa ral esia; in dayt:.m.: er nightaima, r
l . 1 - P00RBR3NAL
21-2 jwb 2NO , I The wind would atill have to bo an important factor in the 2 release. 3 G Woll, if releases aron't beint uchcduled for 4 wind direction, cither ac proposcd cr, eny und2r the l' 3 assumptions wo'va had, if you ignore wi.d direction, would G there be any benefit then to either day or night, as the 7 case may he? Irrespective of cost, for the r.e nsnt. , 8 A. I cannot think of any benefit, irrespective of ; i 4 9 wind. No, sir. 10 (Board conferring.) 11 BY DR. HOCPLR: f I 12 O Mr. Britz, I guess thn Ecard 1.are is trying to 12 ' get semo numbers, and we reali::e that thio bensfit thing -- ' 14 cost / benefit is all determined by F.ppenCi:: I, and all I: hie is sort of thing, and I guess new the crly uhing that th3 j 13 Chairman and I are both nort of focunod on, I think you've i I l tyb rec 11y aircady answered it, but I'd like to put it in the l t [ i l record right: 13 {a l
? . i to Would you say that this might be tr:3, that the i 20( day / night distribution in population 6ifferoncos that would i.
21 ,'/ occur, that would arios, t/culd be ccall -- would maka i i 22 l small differencac as far na man-ren, ccapur2d to i i 03 . meteorological diffaranc3s? CCOurCd .to '".: hing 0.3 A 73fSu3 0
. - - ;;a " a G motacrolcgy? Uculd that he a fair .. cat =w.h? !
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23-3 feb 1971 I Okay, I think that's F.ha cert of thing that we G o wsro worried about. 3 !!ow even though ycu don't h;v3 any infor: nation, d exact information, on whice peepia arm st various tims:s of 1 5 the day, you're saying that we're assumi.ng that wa're all 6 in the maximum downwind airsction, an1.:c:tparing that with 7 =ero, which would be the greatast pos :iale effect which ; 0 would certainly be greater than any e2fect that we could ! t 9 cenceive of, due to the changing distriautio:t of people M diurna 11y, and thic effect would be so uuch c:uller than, l' il srny, the A to G meteorolegy contrast, tact it's not worth
- 12. considering. In that correct?
13 A. That'o corro et. 14 DR. HOOPER: I thank ycu. I 15 i (Beard conferring.) 15 CHAIIa!12T SECUIC2?22: At this time, Mr. Dritz
;7 I can be croccmunmined by the pcrtise. I guaca we'll utcrt :
I I ja ' in order. Ms. Resik? 1 is t MS. KOSIF.: ise have no quechions. ! O i l 20 CHAIRMAN EECE203?ER: Mr. E0ilc7 x, M s o ;;$ t j MR. EE:12: 733, thcr_i: you. ' I? e h 22 C7.053 CH 2 CARD i 1 . 23 :: DY IG. 2EIL3:; 24, G 3*tr. I'"itSi en 77.g3 3 os 703'1 b? dtAli!Dn?, ifle !
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i 22-4 jwb- 2972 l e 1 I- with t.he word "however." Do you have that in front of you, t sir?
-l o,
A Yes. r 4 G All right, the last centsuca 2nys: "During , 4 5 shutdcyn, dry well purcing :/an ha done re:1ectively accord.ing to tino and wind tilrection, without a delay in 6l , i I i 7 normal plant operation." ' B Where did you got your information in regards to t < 9 delay in normal plant operationa? f I to A Well, during shutdown, you ? urge the dry vels., . I i 11 so the perscnnel may enter. And il you wanted to t'ait - n 12 U for favorable wind conditions, you'd just wait, postpenc
! i 72 L tha entering and delay nor:aal operations of going into j 14l the centainment vecsel for the shutdown purpocac.
G I understand that it may delar pers.cno from going II J is into the facility, but docs it ne.cossarily mean it will ! i O 17 6 delay startup?
- s A Mo, we're talking aboat a chutdown ccndition 1 13 'i hera, where they'ra prehably chutting dum to do sene :
2c racintenance or refueling. l p ,
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.n - 1 G So it n. y not r.sciscarily dal.'.y th: startup, it 4 r .
21, I 'ta,r.ight delay persens antaring tha5 arca? I. 2 3 l, 1 That'pa right. u 3 1
.l 22 h Ut11' in 0 =^* # Icu'r c1 YLnE dn uT## tY Pt l i
25 tia cr.d, hmum y:
- rc d airying the *x :k to ~:2- dort. Se s
t I s P00R M INAL
l I 2*:-5 jwb 2'373 I.' that you nrs also pushing back the startup time. f 2- 0 Does that necessarily presuppeso, hcwever, t':st j 3 the wind conditiona -- favorah!.e vind conditions may not 41.i ccme at a ti::le when persens ucre, in cff oct, intending to i 5 't entar that area anyway? I i 1 5i A I didn't understand the question. ! i i 7 0 Ic it conceivabic that it ucn't actes11y delay 8 the startup? That it might delay parsens going into that i 3 arca, although they could go in at a d.ifJurent time and 10 not delcy startup itself? Thac's what I'm getting at. I 11 IW re making the accumption t?.au the person who 12 has to get into a certain area docsn't tot in im:nediately, i 13 or as soon as the t!.ne cones sic:g, that that would ; to necessarily delay tha startup. 15 }y I'm juct asking you: Ecw do you knew that? Isn't ', 1 y 1s 1 it possible that it wouldn't delay the chartup? That there ' ' it I i
;7 i:!e, may be other things the people can be acing, and they yo i j
p , t . . is ; in thorn later and still ctart up at the scma time? L I would cay -- I would say it probably would 19[ : l i 20 l; dolcy the startup. They'll generally work on neveral { 0
- {i portions of the plant at the acme time.
'}
o Then ycu say at tha hattem ez the z u e parag aph,
=)s 23 1 'At tha point in time during startup t'cta the c.e:hard.cn1
- 1
- 1. h '?aCCUn Stmp 13 to UO 0315, h:WST3r, StM.".up opErtti0OJ 4 j
3j Oculd ha stoppGd T. fly frc.T. a =c:23 f;r7tr:.ble time and 11!.nd j
. J Di(KXd 1
2974 2Z-6 jwb 1 direction." 2 Can I accur.o frem your tacciwiny then that yxt 3., would support that? They in fact wculo ha stopped awa/ j i ! 4i for a nors faverablo time and wind dire <: tion? Is that en ! 5 adjustment in the plant r.cchanirr.a thet yot.t would support, G in effact, for a roducticn? l 7 Ti. tio . U 0 And the reason you wouldn't mtyport it is 0 because of the cost / benefit analyais? i
! j 10 A That'n correct. I
~ '
M. ~C Which escontis11y meana, if I'm corrcet shout I i 12 tha coct/henofit e.nalysia, that in ordm.' for it to be ! 12[ cost effectivo it has to raduce radisticn to a grsator i 14 number of people, rather thna achtally reducing tho i 1;! radiation to a c:nallar number o.? peepia, j i .
- s L MR. WZTTE3HMMt I think iJa w .:'.6 Ob Joe : to that. '
I (7 !, Section 2(b) of .4ppundir I la cinar cr. vhat it rnquire: . il 13 h, and what a cost /banafit balt.nca recu'ros I
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- ! M3. URm!1GR: T in'.crpeco no chjoct:lon. I tlink -
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'I tita witness can explain his anaticr.
a; i 21 -('f CHAIMUW DICsnE7%R: I' think ho can c:: plain it. n THE WI?RSS: :7culd yWs 'stato yerr questica 1.gair.? q
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22-7 jwb 2975 1 The reason it's not coct-offtictive is that it 2 docen't -- the reduction in radiation doesn't affect a 3 enough people to make it ec t effective!. 4 A It's not a matter of affecting encugh pecpla; 5' it's a matter of it being coct benefic:.al, to mnny dollars ll G per man-rem. The number of people la :.nvolved of courne l 2 l 7 in the calculation of the man-rs:1, but you can't essign it l I ; GI solely to the number of pecple. It's the dollars per man- l 9 rem number. 10 0 Wall, cince men-rsm ic escen<:ially the prod.tet I \ 11 of the number of people, is it not, that a significant I { l ! 12 factor is the number of people that aro invcived in the t C cost /bancfit analysis, is it not? l Mp Am I correct in that ststrcont? t e. i 130 1 I'm having a tcugh time heari.ng uith the noise il 4 16 going en here. D HR. EPZ:GER: Mr. Hailo, nayho you could ceto a 10 13ttle closcr. t i [ 19 ,L MR. HEIL 3: I cure will. I l
?.0 [ SY MR HEILE:
21 B I just want to maj:a sure I understar.d that the
. l 12 r3acen 13 nct -- that ch3 ren3cn it'0 ::.r: he.Paficial 2rc2i ;
fz j a ecst standpoint is that is in effect -- cue of th.3 )
;f : oignificant run3cn3 La tnat it i:n't a}facting 1.nough j y <
-: eceple? In other ver k it fe m 't enecer w :. hat zeen of ,
P00R E BINAL
'2 8 jwb 197G 1 a man-rte reduction been:so it' c not af t'ecting a <Jreci I O, pcpulation?
I 3 i TL That's one of cho fact:,ru. 't he o .her ' one in I 4i the doce, because it's a m.:bination of the doce time's the l J .] ' nan-rem -- G So it's - G MR. BRUM!inR: Ew.100 clo, Mr. Chair.:lan, the 7h 1 witnoso la in the Utiddle of hic annuer. Il 0l CHAInffAN BCCII7IOEM:R: Yea.
<? lo DY MR. HEILE:
y, f, n Co abond. i A. It's not junt the nurber of pacplo, but it'n aleo n{ i 1; L tho dono, becuuno it's a multipli;:s ti.Ta factor of the . 1 ni ntriocr of pocplo tinca the doce. So it could be oltht.r ona p; $ of ";ht u % It'a not just cuo alona. g i. o O If you ucro to tic:.phe the fache::n, could yet , l i 1 cq ett:-ibute a cartain weight to cach of t 3coc? p ,
., 7j i ilo .
y[ G I undurutand it.'s 2 extbinn'.:i,r.n of 0o00 plus nurSor i l i l t
;g ! cf percous o:cpea:d to tha (!c n . Which '.ca granter wajght? j 29 i i Or is it peccible avon t.*; tt:.h:2 itttn c :rr:cwnt , to msh e.
o i rant,cnso to that cu ntice? 3
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,i O " Jot it ic a heter e c.:nihhn.'aac, that tho ;ciat 1'
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. -- .. . - . - . - . -- . - . . . . _ ~ _ _
l I 3 jwb 2977 I people, that raises the cert of elimination on a man-rem ; 2 banis? Is that correct? l 3 MR. BRENIER: Mr. Chairman, thi1 la gotting 4 awfully quistic. If Mr. Eoile -- well, it's perfectly t l l 3! obvious frcm the record, by now, enyway -- but if Mr. Hcile 3 wants un to atipulate that if svarythin<J else is equal, 7 a lower popalation will result in a Icwor man-rom, that 3 is obviously true. I, Dj HR. WETTERHAHli: At a certain point. A low n I, 10 l population, at a certain point. It[ MR. H2ILE: Are we going to di.acgree on the ; 12 f ctipulation? 13 MR. BREMICR: I cccept that c.".crifiention.
~
1 14 j; BY MR. HEILE: 15I. B I guesc what I'm getting at ius Given the car.a ; f a , 10 'I doses, given -- and given two dif:?eront poyalations, it J : 1" in incro a:: pensive to reduce tho ::ca exposuro to ths 1cuer l I population then it is to tha highc in this kl.v2 of cost 12l l I I 1G i analosly? - 6 f Zj MR. BRENN3R May I object? Uo're estting c7sn I
! l d
2; j' more confuced, now. With recptet to ' tother it's 2.cra '
)
a i a 1 n1 - e::pencive to do cenothing,, lt Cependa en vh:t yct'ra lech.ag . 2f $ at.- i y C!m *C'"ui 3ECT2272R: 'A*. , *:h!.nh that cec Oceda , Se em de v % [ k 4e** %# 4 . O 1 POR ORMR . .
r- i l I i 22-10 jwb 2970 l
! MR. HEILE: Parhaps the witntass -- and I wonid e
2 i be more than happy if thty witnese vould be willing to 3 clari2y, if you have any idea what I'm garting at -- J L 4['l (Laughter.) ,
! l 5h MR. HEILE: -- and if you d!cr.*t, then I will go f
6 in, but if you hcve some idaa, as I r.rienstned the coat-7, benefit analysis, you have a given de30, whatsver that may f, , 8j be, or a given amount of emission fra a plant. I C1 How that e=icsics may be carried in various o I 10 i vind directions, and it may be corried at a slow wind i. 1I dirsction over a highly populated crea. I 12 So then if that htppens, ycu have a man-ram [ < 13 ' goes up. Is that correct? Ml MR. BPMrTER: Mr. Chairman, Utat, too, ia somewhat i i is confucing, at leact to me. I will not object to the verr k 16 i general typs question that Mr. Heile,1 thought, was going
- \
j: I to, stcp with, for the witness to giro a brief explanaticn l 1 i;[ ca to what this is all about in tame cf calcal: ting :acn- l
!i 13f rem. It's Mr. Heilo's crocc, if that's what he wants.
i 20 MR. BEILE: I just wanted a "yes," cr "no," or i i
! l 1 1 r.: ;f an cxplanation tc, an anc?cr. ! :
o !, 2; ; TH2 M.~TU2SS: (Nedding in the negntive.) ; d. i i 23 3 MR. tar 2Ei22: Well, I cbject to the witneJs having ' u1 to ancuar ar. naile's la:t g22atica, h eauce : hat uzz ne ( d i
;r j undarstand:bla.
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CHAIRMAN BECIIEOZFER: Yes. I didn'2 undernt!md . 2 it mycelf. i 3 DR. HCOpZR: I think, Mr. Broncer, id '/cu'd let l , f 4 7x. Bret expla.in again the dict:**bution of peopla and its ! S' relatienship to man-rea and acce, and hov doce is calenlated,i i S this might straighton the whole thing out. 7l MR. BRENUER: Yes, sir. 8 DR. LicoPER: I think it's a hacic misunderstanding . i k 9 hora between Mr. Iielle and Mr. Rcm., and hhey ec.n't quiie -- l 10 l: , MR. BRE!NER: Mr. "Britz." l,
! l 11 (Laughter.) '
12 MR. BRENNER: Yos, cir. The q3estion may be 10 l technically objcetitnable, but an I mentlenad I will not
'! '- i object to it.
15 ; MR. HEILE: That vil1 ba fine. Tha c you. . I 1 IG ,hr o THE ICT!iESS: The intent of Se:tien 2(d) ef I f 17; Appendix I is te dotarmina 1-f ad3itienni rad uasta i 10 lI equipment can to cdded :t a cost c2 loss than 91000 per il, 19 )1 man-rcm. The man em is calculated by tha nmWor of I, pcopie tinco the doces, dus to that particular offluent. 20 {l path. 2: i i
- b.
22 .] If a picco of equipmcnt can ba added en and j l 22 rOdCOG thO Ean-rE 2.t 3 00'3 t of 1W3C tha.1 $1000 F r 2 nr." I 34, 227., IbNO IIM UMy IbC.t p 409 Ok 57Ebp3OnI $bCUbd bO Od$!
- u s, m e 12 ec 1.e w reatta e :10:0 n: =:n- m . ;
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I I BY MR. HEILD: l i e I
' Well, that aces holp.
O I l 3 r That does noc, hcwrcr, preamo that the dcce to Ii a , p d porcons in clone pro:cimig to the schoci or the population 5' is loss would be reduced -- I'm corry, that it uculd bo i 4 less coat offective i:o reduce it for a lacoer population, 7 given the name doces? 6 ' CIIAInt1AN DECIHICUPER: Lat ma intericct eno thing, , 0[ also. In asking cur question, we woru equating scho.dulir.U t i 10 ! to a picca of equipment, as Mr. Brit: used. . Il DR. HOOPER: Do you ttndorstard what we were i 12 l doing ao far an -- the analogne of his adding a piece of . I P.J ; equipuent is telling tha applicant that you schsdulo your j 11 maintenanco uith a cartnin vind direction, or a certain G time, and we ces what that conts. That *a the ecct bacis , Wi hisro . l MR. ITSILI:s I think I d0 underntend that. l 17 l Y la s DR. ECOPSRs That's uhre you get the coct. i e i i H [L It's not a pioca of oculp. rant, but the cost of him of I i 20 schcculing his releassa, i 2- ;1i MR. !!2IL3: I guacc whc0 I W G gotting at, and . ' li l n i! I wocad pcrhapa just liko to ata:3 thii to the Board, c.d . I d
- !!:t then ;.aybo I should 1st it drop: met I van got:ing o.h ic ,
t 25 y I had under toci che Lea:5 to n:h tho ;;matica la thc; n s , 2; .l .c way to reduct it at a ralatin ly :ai.i.ati cent? T. ': ' c a ~. . ;
'i d
P00ROMiNAL
1 22-13 jwb 2981 ,! l I very general question, without cetting into coct/Senefit. O V) i o Perhaps, if I was in error en that, it was my understanding 3 that the fouer people that live in tho . pro: imity, the 4 more expansivo it may be t.) redtce the e2posure, because 1 5 that skewers the man-rem. 3 DR. HOOP 2R: 7er mt.n J 3m. 7 MR. HEI;E Per man-rtm. That's exactly right. 3 DR. IiOOPER: That inn 8 t aractly what the Board's 9 question io. 10 MR. HEILE: That uns not under the Board's l 11 question, I beg the parder. of tha Board's and parties' ! 12 ; for having taken this timo - i l Ii i n 13[ CHAIRMAIT EEC2EO372R: Well, ac, cur question was ! U i 1,1 1 frnmod in tarms of what we beliovo the regulations might ~ l i 33 [, requira, which is Section 2 (d) cf appendix I. So wa vare I, t jgl inquiring whether there was anything in tha liae of
) .,
scheduling uhich, if appliad, could achiava the rritet:.ons i > j,
.8 ; which Section 2 (d) conterplated.
I
;;. [ MR. EEIL3: Fine. Then I've finish :17 cr:an-q 2c. c:.:cmination. I'm sorry.
,q , p CHAI7d!A!T EECHECE?SR: Okny, l
b n Ar. 3rcimsr, dc you htva any f..: B.Gr icestict.a? ' d' i e
.. MR. 3RImiER: Mc, air, i
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- 1982 22-14'jwb I I'm a little confused, nov. Tha Board asked question.3 I I
2 fi'rst. Okay?' And then sverybcdy cice croco-examined. I l 3 I asked no redirect, so thers chould bt. no further , i ! 4 questions. ! i 3 DR. FM13GIAUSER: If you r.ctuory ccn be cerrt:cted, 6 I haven't anhed any quastions of Mr. Brit::. 7 MR. BICUUER: I am corry. C DY DR. FANIRAU32n: 9 G Mr. Dritz, I'm interestad to hear you say that 10 you think there is -- corract: ma if I s.m wrong -- there is 11 no benefit to scheduling ralensos durir.g the nighttime as 12 opposed to the daytime. Is that cerrect? Is that ycur O 13 eo itie=2 A I'm not saying that thare's re benefit. 71 l I misundersteed your ronponce then, frc:a your l 15 i- 0 ; I 1 i in j questien. :Would you say there ic : kncfit to release -- j i i 17l to scheduling relensos at night vorcu.3 the dayti:to? 3 Ic i A When you say "no benefit," I was ro.' erring to I n 19 ;, the absolute terms. I do not have the data -- population i [ !' i 20 1. dats to shcw where dosos reles:cd in tho daytime or rolecced l - i 21 in the nighttime, to tell you if theca trould be a dif2erinca.
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I I 23AR arl '1983 l l 1
'l Q Is it correct that it in the UnC's positicn that j 2 one receives less.of a dosa of airborne radiation when one is !
l 3 1 21 a-building then when one is cutside? ! 4 MR. BRENNER: From this facility? 5 DR. FANKHAUSER: From any airborne radiation. G MR. BRENNER: You get Iacro radiation from 7 beingfaside a brick building than you do from this facility as has been testified to. That'swhythequestionisconfusingl. 8[ 9 THE WITNESS: The effluents frcm the plant would ! s to probably receive shiolding from the construction materiale 11 ;. and the building and the vantilation system would not tike I 12 i it all up as the plane went by, no that the children : night 13 [ receive less doso duo to the affluents v.hile they're 'i:2 (4 the school building. That's poscible. i 15 g BY DR. FANKHAUSER: t k 16 "i Q I wasn't referring specifically to the cchool, h l 17 although I am interested in that as well, cc I am sure :'on f 13 are aware, n . J l is c But correct na if I am wrong, it was my understEnding 29 lt' that generally this presumns that scms protection can bo l 21 afforded to airborne radiation by being inside of a bui:. ding , I 22 lratherthanb31ngoutsideofthatbuilding. I i w A Yes.
.- (
1 i ng !' Q Oo you think it is fair to asa mo thct it might l ( 0 33 ; find morcsecple incide the building :han :utalde the building s' P00R D E R L ;
_ _ _ . _ , _ _ . ~ . _ _ . . _ _ . . _ _ _ . .._ _ _ _ _ . _. _ __ . . _ . _ . . _ _ . . _ . . _.
- or2 2904 [
I as ccmpared to the daytilm? 2 MR. BDENUER: Mr. Chairman, cbject ca two grounds: i 3 FirstSof all, I don't chink Mr. Brita is an expert I s 4 on the nocturnal habits of the residents ot' Moscow, Ohio. ! 3 Secondly, and mera ceriously, I think it's { l
'l
- 5 obvioun the way this is going, cnd the ratorial potat is i'
7 that Mr. Britz's testimony baunds the mn::imum case, as Dr. 3, Fankhauser apparently agrtes by trying to atross that tho I 9- nighttine done might be laca, and thortfore it just won't o i 10[r be of any 'ascistanca to thic record to inquire into that i l "1 ' possible diffaranca betwoon daytime and nighttime. n ! . '2 l, MR. PMIKHAUSER: Mr. Chairman, it was my understandiag; . I i
, 10 I . from this responca, and I mcy have nintuc'aratecd it, but it .
i i 1 M[ was ey underutanding that his poaition wa.3 that there would in 0 be no benefit acheduling releauca at nighe versuc day, and a
? I isj thic is regardlean of the cent effectiverenc. It ucu my l i 1 ,
17 j undarctanding he felt the dus.e would not he radeced by that j l 13 typa schedule. f
, I 19 ' If I'm inccrrect -- !
l 20 i V CHAIRt1AN SECHEOEFER: Woll, I didn't rand his annuar l
! !, l 2t to say that, to any that the Scae oculd, or wouldn't be : !
Il i nl reduced. I thout;ht he bcundnd his anmier and said that 1 g l thars aru certain sapcots of it waich ditn't enter into his i 1 y ,. csiculati:nc. But I don't think -- l l f 3 (Decd ccnf arring.)
. _ ~ .. , . _ , . . _ _ . . . . _ . ._ -
lv - 2905 . ar3 ( I MR. BRENNER: Of course, Dr. Fankhaucer's statement,j f 2 even if it ware ccrrect -- which it isn't -- miacharacterizes { l l the testimony. But even if.it wcrs, this ron't at all go } O Ill l 4l to the point of my objectica which the Scard ha:s yet to rule 5[ cn; that is this isn't a natorial lino of e.ny p'obative valua
! i GI because Mr. Britz haa bounded the anximum cace, as hna IIr. j i
Rooney, I might add. l 7l 8 (3 card conferring.) > 9! CHAIPJEN BECHHOEFER: Mr. Fankhausar, the real is about that his ma>imum case takesin all 10 critical thing 11 all these things, and all your questions seem to ignora, and the Board's question -- this is vary important. Now you 12] is , can talk all about peepic, wind directions, and all of these 14 ., things, but he's taken the ma::icnn case and given us the 15 b ma::imum figures which is what we wanted. 16 0' Ncw I don't think you quite understand what his i i 17 me::imum cace involves or why it decs exactly what wa want l f
- sl in the way of analysis. {
l
- s Now I think if you can ~~ maybe you can develop 20 [!sono sort of something here that will help you cut, but I I
2: . think that's the problem. i 1 The lurt objection is austained. !
=1 I I
~
23 ;j .t!R. FAEHAUSE2: Then I have r.o furthar questi2nc. l 03TJOITJT 32C3HCEF22: 7::,~Brciner, do you hava 3a ! l O v
- c.nr further questiona?
i
=
are 2!86 1 MR. BRENNER: Mo. ? \ V 2 CHAIRMAN BECHECEFER: The 30ir ? has : o furthe.x 3 questions. I guecs Mr. 3rit: may 33 a l c .'.. e d . i. I 4 Thank you. l S (Witness c:tcused.) 6 (Beard confarring.) 7 blR. 1ETTEREAHM : Mr. Chairnan, juct for the i i 8 l record, this closes the Appendix I
, quactions of the Bc ard.
3 i' Wa aro gcing to ask thatour witnacces be e:tcused i to . permanently. 11 CHAIRMAN BECHUGEFER: That's correct. , t 1 12 - At this stago the Ecard would like to take n I 4 /m. 13 Ghort recess of about 10 minutes, and than we will come I ( ) t %/ y it, j heck and tal!c about Part 73. I
.i ,c, MR. BREMNER: Mr. Chair::an, ditrine that recosa i
13l' I'd like the Board to concider so:n structure to this oral - 4 i
;- q crgument, specifically fairly linited tir.c parieds for j l i
;gf each party to speak once, and then yarhaps an avon 'norn f 1 i je , limited time pericd for c.itick rebuttal of each party. So :
i l' 2., ;' parhape we can do the whole thing in abcut a half heur< l y .h
.. CHAIRMAN EECH3CEE2: Well, Wa'd cartainly .i:t2 I 3
i i i 3 ., r > to got it thrcugh in short tdse. . i-MR. 32DGER: Tho cL .y ' 'ay * ' ' ' So it is id 33 f
- o. 1.D O 30ard 31c".3 th53 M*l'UOr Of .22. nut 23 IdaGy 's?i'.1 311C0 m .
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tuch p.rty z: a=w2. hoch an 2 u.r nts rw:ne:,n a=d r w.= eat. I 5
. ... .~ . ._ . - . - . - - - .. . - . - - - - - _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
ar$ 2987 1-MR. CONNERS If the 2 card pl:earo, I cannot O V 2 agrae with that. I'll probably be arguing against a group 3/ of people, and thera are ::overal cacos thc.t may Scar on it. i
'+ In view of the Board's bringing up 2.717 'k ) point and 5 some authorities, so I just don't :cnow thzt I can agree to I
61 a time limitation. i 5 7i CMIRMM BCCHHOEFER: I really want to hear the i i 8 ' various authorities and tho argunonts on this quantion. 9 MR. COMNER How about lir.liting to 30 minut33 a 10 side? 11 CHAIRMXT BECHHOSFER: Wall, that, I don't think 12 we vill -- I don't know. I'd rather see khero i' goes. 13 (Recces.) andas la 15l 16
/ f) 18' 10 20 21 h
$1 2; :} i li f i
23 'l I I 24 ! i O '
"lj .
P00RORIGNAL n
. - - ~
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.AF"ER (i:00 . 2 2 86 9 david I EVENING SES3 ION (4: 05 p.m.)
idl 2
- nke 2t 3 cnAInfun 3EcalIDEFEn: Bach on f.ho record.
4 MR. BREinIEn: Mr. Chairman 10 CFa., 2,717 (b) of the f.'.ommission's ragulationa contains tuo conten:cc. Tho 5 6 first centanca roads: "The dirsator of nuclear reactor 7 regulction or director of nulcant m.ntaria: a nfety and 3 aafoguardo, as appropriate, n2y iccue and ordar and take 9 any otharvise proper adninistrative actio.1 with recpoet to a i 10 , liconoce t.ho is a party to a punSing prccceding." ( 11 In the cace, the dologeo of th3 apprepriato 72 cffice iscued en May.3, 1979 -- I'm sorry -- icaued -- l 13 I I don't have the ensch dato. MR. CC?mIR: iluno 16, 1973. M MR. BRENNER: Thank you. 15 and as subscquently amended, a 2.icenco which 3c
;7 sicjected to certain conditic.an and su.bjcet to .hc gg regulationc being =ct, uculd ;9arnit the r.pplicant in 79 t this proceeding -- Cincinnati Gas O Elect--ic -- to racef.ve 20 now fuel in sn irradiated fuc1 stcrage on-cita.
1 af That licence hac been iusued. ggl The cracend centonce c ' O.717(b) ctatas: Anf i 3 ; order ralated to the stiject mattsr of a panding proca: Sing ; i
- r:ay be medified by the prooiding offien as e.pproprista r
j y I fc: tha purpece of the r.r.t.: ceding." L i > i 200R NGINAL : a
f l 2959 david 2 1 , So I think it's very cicar that the licensing A . V 2l t board may ,take jurisdiction to cencider uhoth at to mcdify t 3 thislicenSe, if you find that the liceaco is related to
\
4 the subject mattar of thir. proca.: ding. 5 IIsppily, wo do not han to decido that question 6 for the first timo hare today because the Cor.eni:ssion in the 7 Matter of Pacific Gas & Electric Ccmpany,. Diablo Canyon 1 0l Nuclear Power Plent, Unit Numbers 1 and 2 -- 3 NP.C '73 -- 9 decided February 5, 1976 -- has already addrarsed and decided 10 thia question. 12 More particularly, ac pr go 74 of that docicien, 12 footnote one ottos: "The Atcmic Saloty an2 Licencing Socrd: I 13 maybe given jurisdiction ovsr proceedingc fr. tho issuanca 14 , of part 70 ratorial liconnes." Citing 10 CPR 2.721. 15 The Commission goes en to decartbe hcu nor:n11y 10 the notico of hoaring constituting a ra::tiemler board 17 conforu jurisdiction in a particular cuco 'sy i rafarancing jg the opoeific licensing application or apnlications to ha 10 considorod. go Although the nctice of licaring ochblisling 21 , the prosant board did nc: t.rpli:itly rofor met the n teriala H n hI licensing question h ec, @? licant:a 1.m 't f.ategral to the I ij gy Diablo 0.nycn prcject. O I uj And it crea not 2pewr est ca r " ~ ~ ,5 .arern j g a actual.ty prajuaicae e the 1.e of rf . l [
2990 david 3 1', Civan the board's fa.711arity with the Diabic l
! Canyco project, it mado gcod pract: cal cenaa for it to 2 .
3I hear and decide tdie :31eted iss*.:cs raic ed by the part i, 4l 70 materials licence application. 5 I*ccordingly, we hereby confini tha licensing boe.rdh 6l assertion of juriadiction in this incl.r.r:a. 7 no 2.717(b) permits the board to take i g jurisdiction over matters related to thia licenso because I the ce=miscion 1.0.n held that a part 70 licanno application l 9 10 is an integral part of an operating licenaa proceeding. l g Now, I want to emphasize that d30sn't mean the ,
! i
.;; i chaff did not havo tho authority tu act us it did approximately-
,,, a year ago and issue the licence. That una perfectly
- ,i 3
) i b, l proper. l
)
L, ! Ecuavor, :now ua're at the go:.nt of daciding 3 I whether the board has juricdiction to ac': under 2.717{b) 1S -1 , t 1
- for tha reasenc I just gave: the utadf'c position 1:; that ! ;
,_ s !
l l it does. l 70l ,
, 1 I
y ; The next question is: ahould tha beard c.uorcise , ,
.a . . ;
l that jurisdiction? It's staff'c opinion it should not. 1 20l The stafC-- 01l i I CHAIRIGN DECEHCUER: Could va ach a qucrtion hera?.
~~ r 1 Ucil, are you naying that va -- 2rs yon aaying bhat we i
[
,, should deal udth tha ::tien that's been iiled, or ar2 you c4 +
l f She'I.1d dOny hh0 ZOdbcD2 f 1,,.30'ir.E" bat 1/? E00RBRE , d ,
)
l
2991 david 4 jf MR. BRENNER: I'm raying -- Vall, those two n) ( - 2 l: are not inconsistent. - l 3i CHAIRMAN 3ECEZCEFER: Well, yes they are. l. 4 3 MR. BP.ENNER: I thin.'t you he.vu jurisdiction. CHAIR:CM 3ECHECE72R: 'i7e arc orarciting our 5! i I jurisdiction if we deny the motion. Me nay not 3 t be exercising it if we choose not to entortain it, and 7 I want to draw the distinction. gg I g! IF.. BRm11TER: I thought youtched me if you to .- should deal uith the motion. I CHAIR!G.H DECHEOEFER: Enterta.'.n it, yes. g
! My answer to ho':h of your questienc L,,.
MR. BRENNER: g: is v.ou should entertain the motion and v.:u a ahor.1d donv. t
; it.
1~,
. CHAIFl@li BECHHOEFER: Ohay, tant's uhat I wanted u
to clarify. MR. ERENDER: Yon, i u ( ) i CHAIFl.4MT BECHECEFER: 23cau2:a c0ncaivably We f 18 l . l i 1' ' could have jurisdiction and not entert2in it for cor.3
%( l reason or another. And I vantsd to clarify your position' f 20 t J
t in that regard. 21 d s MR. 12EUMER: I'n net cles.r cc uhat you man by ; 12 i , d enterta.in," Mr. Chai. man. It't. 2taff): pcait.icn that i l 4
%w s >I 1
e .1 ea = m _ ~ 1 e 1 = e n = _ m < = _ = m = m e e m
.Sc * . l I
_ar:
- 7C litim0?, and yrfure jr.rialicti.:. to seny '0
- I IS
( sh;'pr.ent of fuul until y':3 .hnsidor th0:2 isc"sc. 1 P00ROR2NAL
1 2992 devid5 1 However, it is the staff's'pc,sition that the A-Q 2 r.otion should be denied because there ur 3 no , 3 valid issues raised that fou need to der. wizh. 4, CHAIRMAN 3ECHEC UZR: Right, Jc you -- you're i 5 not telling uc, for instancs, to ack Miami valley to O raquest a section 2.206 order? 7 MR. BREUNER: Kosolutaly not. That#c corract. G I'm asking the board to deal with the no:icn in that ) s sense. 10 CHAIRMAN BECHECEI'ER: Right, .:kay. ; 1 11 MR. BPSWRER: Miami Valley's :r.ction is premised 12 solely on the .new information ar.d co the change in the l ' i 13 i schedule fer fuci 1cading, as presurably the motion enst i ja be, because otheruice it uculd be argunbly out of time. 13 , With thatas the only basis, there is abs,1utely no 16 rea:3cn for the bcard to intervene in this natter, 1 17 , The staff, as evidancnd by tha cngning revicw ga prior to issur.nce of the :h:als -- of t.de catcrials hand. ling to licanse and even before, ciaply is e:tercising the propor l 20 review functions. I l 3 Indeed, as ve all know andhan baan discucccd s3 -I, during tha incpectica with CG 5 E, 0.t :h n ti .e of the g,3 inspection there were cc.rtuin rtattarc atill to be d:na, 24 which I might add is not .nusual, since there was nc racuir: rent thac tacy ba -lone until' juuu prier to t'.o 33 2:01 brinc rzesivad. l
}.. f
2393 david 6 1 And those arc cpelled out in the letter whin.1
.2 wa incued.
3 Miami Vc11ey wculd have thir Lcard say: Con':
.r, cecept the fuel until you como closer to ycur scheduled 3l date, even though there's r.cthing wrong vi:h re pect to i neating all the regulationn.
G.I i 7' We submit that that is no bcsis for this board a to intervene and to prevent the ship ent of fuel at thi.3 9 time. If all the requirements of the rer.21ation cro met, the matter of how far in advance the fnel loa. ding er 10 the fuel is received does no give rise no any insua 33 12 which this board shculd consider.
,g CHAIRiWT DECUHOEFER: Let me nsk you: in e nsidering the matorial before us, shculd we r21y on the 1.1 standarda that aru normally applied to stays, ns appenring t o..
f n see n 2. m N , 1 - 4, Eac ba].ancing? 10 y ., Is this comparable to senebody carrying out ; a
.,s u.
consthing under an e:ciating 1!. cense and somobody acking for 10 a sta*v of that licence? l c 1 I
. i na. BRmINEn: Mr. Chairman, I wculd not -- I'm J to 1 1
y ; not prepared to stato definitively at this tims:. Houevar, I 4 I can 3.:sta that cortsin?f nanv. cf the sr.m cen;sidraticac y I wcu.1d obtain.,
. Cl
, i In thOtc0nnacticn; C Mould Li ine l'.;ard *.c .? Trap
&1 ,,{l' j
, l 1 l' I.4 '^ind th3 f act ; hat
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If . I ; i l (_. _ _ _ _ _ -._ _ _ - . , ,
1994 david 7 .1 also hava sphcific matter which are being appealed, and i 2 therefore you can look te the chances of cuece.?s on the nerits 3* as one of themost important things, as wall ac perhapc the 4 ether equally important thJng of what harm will cccur to 5 the movant if the stay '.s anied: irre*ro::abic, immedinta S type harm. i
/
7 on both thoso courts, this motien vould fail. 8 However, given the way 2.717 (b) is chructured, I would not at this time =ake the decision that you need a standard 9q to as high as a stay in order to redify nn order of the i 11 i type contemplated by 2.717 (b) . I 12 For example -- although I much confoss I have 13 [ not studied it in detail, I have the Ind.icn Point 1 14 ':; decision which the board referred to ysnterdcy, which is t ALAB 357, decided November 10, 1975.
$3 gg Anc in conaidaring its juriadictica to act under I
l' g7 ;- ~2.717(b), the appeal h: rd, acting er a trial board in tha'c l \ gg[ case, did not go through Phc criteria required for ctay. l i ! i 39y Now, admittadly, the facts 0.ra sc'auwhat differe.nt, However, ovan under a levar standard thera is I 23 too. , i ' i 1 m u i- abcolutely- no basic for this board to act to 77avent ::he - 3 f
.e
- .s ship =ent of fuel en-cite, 7:cvichd all t'no conditions of ;
j t t'.m licensing regulaticna are not. 3.} 1 I
- The stadd is cn 00p of this. The licen23e .! !
4 se .: , i I
,. ij - -tr.dcre:cnds 1.;c.: ther hv. ta 6.u, 2 ': ' .3 ::de public whcx l
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. l t.
1 1 !- j i P00R ORIGINa
l 2995 david 8 I has to be dene, r d 2 And there's just no problem, nor den the mo ict r 3 allego any problem. Again, thio 17hcle Ensis is .3 imply you i 4 have more time, no you should wait. l end 24 i, si jub fis. ! !, b k. i
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043each 3996 : 925 ! 1 CHAIRMAN 3ECHEOE7ER: May we take into eccount , i the finencia1 ceneid<.retsene ehet are ee seese mentiened ! O eo12 darid 2 2 > 3 in.the motion? 4 MR. BREmiER: '!o, Mr. Chairman, unless we a.".so 5 had issued in thin case which put the coct/ benefit for the 6 facility in question. No hc/en't such issues. There's not the alightest scintilla of eridence th:t any sconczic cost , 7l ! ai would in way tilt any cost / benefit or would la any wn" I a affect the deciaien that this 3 card still hca to make en . I 10 the iscuos in controversy with respect to the Ptrt 50 l 1 A 1 lic0438-it l
. i 1
}; l Given that circumetance, yo ne.ed not take tha I
l 1 pij! costs into acccent.
, J s
p! (2 card conferring.) i l i
- i. I 15 g CFJ.IRMAN BEECE7ER: A:ce you -- ;
i !
,. c- MR. 2?&a~ER: I':s finiahed.
; .; CHAIENAM SECE30E722: I gac2: To enght to haar ,
Ee. Ccans): next. Shall W.e hone frca yo4 ncnt, Mr. Co: mar? kn 1 g MR. CONNER: I can't near ycu. l l l 20 CHAIIGD3 BECHHOOFER: I said, I think we cryht to 2.,. haar frem 'rcu at this zina
- i
,, 1 MR. CCm4TIR: W31."., I 5 cutner.':enEd , hete.117 ,.but --
?
CHAI2:U2 BECEHC37E2: ?n;5cn? u,3 m, m Then .Ms. 2cci2 vill hav 2 a sh nc?. n respcnd - i {i 1, e CCl^ GR 1 san't h 3r ycN.
- s:
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'4 P00R DRBM l 1
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25-2 jwb 2997 ; I CHAIR?'AN DSCHECEFER: I cay, Ms. Kosik will then , (' 2 have a chance to respond. , I 3 MR. CCMT3R idell, I ansuma ':ha other counnals 4 for the intervonors will also have a chance to respond to 5 whatever I cay. In any avont, I uould reserve the right 5 to say something back to anything that's brought up, but - 7 at the mcment then I will addracc only the metion and the 0 jurisdiction. 9- ORAL ARGUMENT OF MR. CONirim 10 ! CH DEEAL2 OF il MR. CONNER: I think uc have to go back i2 .i farther than Mr. Brenner did. Admittzdly, the Diablo Cany :n 1.', in the only case by the Cen:2icsion whiah deals with an l l 14 i Sr4 license. A "specini riaclear matnu::.a1 license" under l 75[ part 70 is referrad to na an "$17. licw w2." 16l,, But the Ccc:riscion has long :ccognit:d the b nj principle that li:6 licensing 3-hr.cc fo: ths varicun things
!2 h that it conducto under the T.temic Enurvy Act, are O
separated quito a bit. E l-t
,% ! . I would direct the Ecard's attantion to !?ew n
i i n: - England Pcwer Ocmpany, I.22, 70-9 7 r!20 271,1973, wherein i
}t 21 [ that licancing 2 card articulat?d some basic -ules 1
nf 1 Scsed upon previous decisicac.
.i 2.: y Scginning at page 27?, 'sto do:1.3ica stat 22:
o . k ' 2[t i "Accordingly, Liconcir; 3 arda n-- ! dal;q:cs of the Cc.I.miarion 1 e i 3 P0 B MIBIN L
l : 1 < l i i 25-3 jwb- 2998 j i 1 and er.ercise caly those povers which the Ccmission has l L 2 given them. The Ocznission has establichsd a carefu1~.y ; i 3 articulated regulatcry schema for the procesaf.ng and l 4 adjudication of applications fcr the licensing of nuclear l pcw1r plants." 5 .l 9 It goes on to say thct the staff is responsible 7 for various things, not applienb1: here. This is not 6 talking c_'T. rut an StBI licanso., But the Ecard in that f l 9i caso concludes: I 3 10 "Accordingly, it 10 apparent that the Board dess 11 not have any supervisory authority over that part of the 72 application reviou procesa that hec beSn entrustad to f f Q stC.ff.* 'l dp IJ ; The Appeal 3cexd in Narble Sill -- hero again
- $]h in the case -- I'm talking only the princip13. Thia case icd is an antitrust case, as I'm sure ycn're familiar with, i 1,~ j' MR. BREmiER: Mr. Conner, in's not an antitrust ,
I r i ji) i} c f.S O . !
!i l it. MR. CC1CIER: 'lcu're right. I was just about to r j ,
20 p say that. i 1 , g; j MR. BREIRTER: I happen to knca the staff attornny 3
)
a 1 n? cn this cauce, very W311, 2ie'J a ni:a Sc2. icy -- l
- 1
~ t ,, 10.. CCli2CR2 Ch, -von have ons?
'i i
; } -
TE. 5?,Sim.; -- und it's ccacider nd a..re.dicicci tal ,
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25-4 jwb 2999 1 health and safety procceding in which an antitrust ( ~ intervener wan wa to come in. 3 I'm ccery. O MR. CONNUR In any went, in this precocaing 5 an effort was made to raise the m tter bcyond the Par; 50 G health and nafety preconding, Mar.oly, to raico an antitruat 7 mutter. 8 The Appcal Board in that case, which by the way 9 in Public Smrice Ccapany of Indiana 1 NF.C 157,1976, the f0 operating languaga hero is, in our judgnent as to the 1; ; principle, we harbor no ac ibt ttat: if it chcua the
~
12 cc:saiacion could direct the licensing Board to hold ai 13 ccabined antitr tst conctruction pcnd ' c hearing, but thia
,g i 14q is a far cry frcn caring that the I.icarving Board had
'l is I diceretion to do 30, abocnt Ccenincion appr Wal.
!I 1(i As we naid in bildland, excspi for.wh3ro it refuoco p ,
itcoif in a partice.lar casa n I.ic?.ncing Ice.rS's actionc can 73 lj neither enlarga por contract tha jurisdictica confoi..~ ed 1 10j by the Ccmiacion. fi 2e !. It scea on to diacuss tt'o policico in havintt f 2 oop.irsta hearings and arparate licensing are perfoetly all h r; right. ' h ( =,'. cuaInm nuescr2n: Ia snu a corthing thera , g1 cbcui. 2.717 (b) ? , F
" :i
.e.. . ,, :.: 2 . 0 0 i;7S 2 : Sot in- 's.;e mat ric.1 tho t wac I c P00R OR E L ,
I i 5 i i 15-5 jub 3000
!l 1 Telecopied to us. I don % think so. I'll get to that in 0 ,
2I a minute. ' i 1. i 3 CHAIRMAN LECIEOEFER: '??c, bscause I don't ! I. 4 racember that questien cvar cccc up th?re, to -- j 5! I MR. CONNER:
. In that case? !l l I
G CHAIRMAN DECHECE"ER: Yes, ia that cnae. So j i 7 that -- 8 MR. CONNER: 2.717(b) has been on the bcoks i i 3 since 1973. I know, I vrcts it. 'I 10 CHAIIEW SECITnCIIF1:R: Oh, I'm not denying thtt, I 11 but I mean I'm not sure nnybody thought about in that case. 12 MR. CONITER: I would no:st relar to the Com:r.ianicn ! g ja decision, the South me::cc case, which you're all familiar N l, with, which is 5 NRC 1300, In the M. attar of Houston v i: Licht and Power ccmpany, et al, in 197'i. o l, t p3 j Here again was an effort to : mise an anhitrust i l n,
't iasue. On page 1307, the Cc iacion2ra said that: "On ,
i l i
;3j appeal of our staff, the Appoc1 Eccrd reversed (citatical i
j .3 P agraeing with ths ctaff that the conatructica parmit ! I I
~
l 29 . proceeding had formally ecos to an end, the arpiration of !
- n. .
. i[
H ac: to cach judicial review, and that tha licensing n, board lacked dalegated c.:thority to rocyon cuch dacizien." t . New we ccme ne::t ther 2c the Diablo C nycn Ocas,
;3 ){ !
, , . which nr. arentor :ma cie:a, and hero I ucu1d nota emm
.q
- = li;. wh il e the inng u g,t 1 w.g cu; ina=0 caspcetc,
't e
1 P00R ORIGIL
i 25-6 jub '001 l I. I I think that the clear intorprotatica ic contrary to that ! i E expres:cd by Mr. Drenne_, )_ l 4 3 He read frem the fcctnote, atarting; he said: ; r . 4 ;I "The Atceic Safety and Licensing 3 cards :nay be given , c , 5!: jurisdiction over proceedings for tha issunnce of Part 70 N GH materials licercos under 10 CFR .' M *1." h ... 3 ! 7!, It says, "Normally, you would confer - - ll 8 I' jurisdiction by the notico of hearing." It goes en to note l
, 1 1
1 . 9 that no party objected, and no one was prejudiced because l i i
! l 10 l that license at that tire was pending.
i
!! l I think the rationale, which is absolutely l
i l 120 significant to this decisica, is 'givca the Board's 4 i ) 1.3 I familiarity with the Diablo Canyon Project, it made goed l i
;4 ij practical sance for it to heer and decido the related 1 l j3 ij issues raised in Part 70 caterials lic:nca applications, ;
4 1sj accordingly us heraby confirm tho Licensing !? card'a ' 1, p;- ascertica of juriadicticn in this inct:.ac2." i I j a h., It does not say the roard had juriadiction in O wl i the first place. The Cerrlission said: Wa ratify the j
~
i 20g auct:nption of jurisdiction made by the Licaneing Board. j 1 i _e t_ , New -- and that vac etill in the fcotnoto. I It peinto cut that the r. attar waa 2005, and of ccurcs it nl 1 l 1 _3 j 3cCS cn to thO iniGrI,CCc.tC:"f poilit that "JC 'r3 Id3111ar "i:dh i a
., en w a e.dee . tame N m'h -
av s e 8 e est U ce
,; Sc as a nctter of'1:w, I r3nd thic docicien 03 P00R BR$lNM
2597 jvb i saying that it would have be2n -- this Iauter would have i 2 bean inharlocutory had it been un integral part of the
.I 3 Part 50 procoading. But since it wasn't, and since tha l
4 Isicensing Board had decidEG it, ttnt kept it fro:n being 1 5 inter 1ccutcry and gave the Camission irmediate jurisdiction i l 6 to haar the appeal, pointing out in the nect paragraph that 7 the Appeal Board clearly could not have jurisdiction without P a specific delegaticn frem the Cennicsion. 3 ; New -- 10 CHAIRMAN BECHHOEFE2: Wesn't that because of the I i 11 ' vary specific terms of the Appeal Soard delegation, which I includes-cases only crising under Part 50? I don't think 12 j 12 the Licensing Boards have that limitation. 14 MR. 00!C1ER: But the notice of hearing is still 15 limited to Part 50, just as this ene is, in terms of the 16 constitution of this Ecard. 17 .CEAIRMA' 7ECHHOIFEn: Well, whsu abrat the 16 C mmission's " integral part" ccaments? I 19 MR. CONMER: 7.'m carry?' 20 CHAIMAN BECEHO2FE2:' I said, what about tha l 21 : Cord.ssion's "intagral" -- I thiah it uns "intagral part"? l l 22l Or " integral" -- ucing tha verd " integral" in that .?ccuncia? i ! 2 MR. CCITER: We have all draftad noticas of
]q l 24 ;; '
hearing 4/ni::h the CO: mission hac 2 ant Out. th.000gh it'3 i 23 3 cC7"3".4.r*f .,, C.".d I "'t init3 CC"TCin thUt li! Yh3 COCliSOdon d
-,m (f.
~ ,,s , , - - .
25-8 jub 2003 l' wanted. Licensing Boards to censidsr matarials licenses, , 2 they would have included them. 3 And particularly after the Diablo Canyon decisien 4 where this iaaue came up, which said: ohn , Diablo Ecard, 5 you did it; it'n probably all right; ve'11 ratify it. But G it didn't say: .Yas, Board, ur.dcr our notics -- standard 7 ncticas of hearing, you always had this i.risdiction. It S said, we do it in this particular instance. We confirm the : c , ' Licensing Board's assertien cf juriadf.c: ion in this i 10 instance. They didn't say "ganara11y." '
.f 11 Now we believe that is the co- rect ,
i l 12 interpretation of Diablo Cs.nyon,. and no Salieve that is ~; i 13 what the Commission momit. l 14 p Turning quickly nce to your Indl.:tn Point caco, ;
! i L
15 as to the intarpretation cf 2.717(b), we submit that that l P 16l ca:e is no authority for the proposition that jurisdiction
\
is conferred upon a Part 50 Licanning Board, As Mr. Brennor l 17 3e f i read the language, it says that it muct b2 cemethincj that I 19L relatso to the issus before the 3 card under its delegated p 20 - l authority, in offeet. l The decisien in Inficn Point very carefully turns, gt ; -
=a in my judgcant, en the fact that the Board states that -- !
ll {
= it netas.th: peint - lat 22 say in acyccce, it notr j it 26 L actus uhe point thet tha posf,ti-:n in fact by th: stata ;
3: . 7 , 7 w
... ;. fails to.take into acecan., hho juricdictional fr:newerk <
i h l
-N
-l 2S-9 jwb 3004
.1 attendant to h,i.ndling tho licenso cases.
f 2 This decision recognizes the principle, and then 3 it goco on to say: " Thia Zoard" meaning the Indian Point l 4 Doard, was dolegatad full authority by t'.2e Cc:rnisaien t.c l . ( 5 achieve a ecmprehensive razo3ntion of the seiczic insuca 6 raised with respect to the Indian Point sito. 7 The condition for e.shich modification is sought 6 bears directly upon that subject matter. Mcrcover, the 9 condition, es ad41tienelly iscu.1 during tha pandency ef 10 the seismic proceeding. Thab being so, the terms of 2.717(b) 3y explicitly contcapicte our enarcica of the authority te rula
'i 12 en the requested licence amondment.
13 This case is disting;uishrd selo?.y on the facts ( g uhich are primarily that the Ccr.sission had alraady delegated g[ auch au %ority to their Licansing Board, and that is enactly
'l 19 h! what was intended to be in 2.717{b).
1
.s . , . 11 Ifaccethingwa$notb3fereaBoard,itdidnot '
l
.g il provent the Director of Regulation and his succcasors from gg acting. Prior to that time, there hcd been deciaic d gg whorein Licensing Board said ndf:hing can done on a 11co.2se i!
g j until this is done. That amendment was put in to maks clear I
-.. j that 2s staff wac not hamstrung f:ca reagting in a matuar unrelatadtothehonring,ifituncnoc$saryandapp;cpriata.
_a
. ;f CEU4YDaN b3 CEC 3. 2 3 %QrO &ny r$107anCG 'C '.
4 O, u l 2hc fact that the nirector of n.yu:. tiene in that ecco
- .m. ,
i t L
i 25-10 jwb 3005 '
- 1 1 acted bafore the Board was cven brought up by the i i
1
~
2 Cctre.ission, or established by the Ccriccion? 3 MR. COlaIE2: In which cuac? i 4 CHAIRMAN t?.CHEC1:E'ER: Indian Point. ! l 5 MR. COUNER: I'm sor y, I didn't read the ence. 6 It said -- it sys here tha licence tms conditiencd -- 7 CHAIRMAN 3DCEHMFER: Wei , it was a licenso 8 condition -- : 9 11R . C01G Tit: -- initially issued during the
~
10 pendency of the coirmic precacding. understand you have l' 11 dirtet familiarity with the facto of this cace, ao I yield l 12 to your knowledge, but I can only go on fue language hare. ! 13 I'm not aware of any Inrguage t:.' the contrary 14 j in tha decision, and I'd be hap.w. to havs vou point it cut. i 15 Mr. Wetterhahn gave ycu n copy, as I underchand it, sarlier. j l 1G Well, -- , 17 , CEAIRMAU 3ECHECIFET.: No,.I jr.3t won 5cr2d if it 1 01 made a differancia. It was my inproacf.cn that the i I
;9 eparating license had bsen 10: nod, and the Appeal Dec*d i
1 20 wan -- the seismic iccue had bsen raiacd, and the 2; i . Appeal Board uss constitutsd tha reard to hear it, aftt:r ,! n - l,
, l 2; P bs fact. '
$ NN. C OI.llE3A I E12nnS3rh. E cod yGar Kinu.
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'25-11 jwb 3C06 , l I had been issued in Indian Point 1, 2, and 3, well before !
2 this tir.e - 3 CIIAIFFnN LECHHCEFEP.: Right. 4 MR. CCIDER: - int hearings wars centinuing. 5 But I don't coe that that ticuld hava any affset upon it, 6 bscause however it got thors, tha issue on saismic was newly I-i 7! .. constituted and raised in the proceeding, and tha conditicu i B nlated directly to that now issue. ' I t 9 I think it's irrolavant that tha oporating ; 10l license had or had net been inaced, as 1cas as it was a i< 11I procaeding panding hofors the Ecard. , 12 I bcVe no argn=ent that uo matter -- it docen't i 13 hava to be a ccnstruction permit or an e;ersting licento, i i . 14 i, it cculd be a hearing on an cmendasnt, if cne cver happened, the Ecurd would be autherized to enarcico 2.717 (b) authority 15 { is r ever a conditics related to tha subject natter of that i !
;; . haaring -- althcugh obvicusly a reard would not have plenary 1
i ts " authcrity to do anything it wanttd to do. 19j CHAITGIAH 32 Clin 02 TR: All right, so you wouli havo
-i
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20 f. , us limit it to an issue ro'i.ated to cno of the contentiens t 21 !j that have been alrocdy 2ccepted er put into iscus. J
- l
. 2, 4 MF.. CC:m2N: Well, lat ne stata it c:nvarcely. !
t - il } 22 o since thera ar2 no issue reland to thie, 7cu have nc i 21 juri; diction to c:nsidur it. n
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Il l ' l 23-12 jwb 3007 3 I
~
! i; fas iscued a year ago by the duly conatituted authority of 2 the Commission. All right, that brings me to the discussion ;
I 3 c to some ax'ent en the merits. 4 And here I thinh it is just a little inpcrtant to E lock at Diablo again. I am arguing, assuming, arguando, 6 that the Board night assert jurisdiction. Therefera : 7 feel I should addresa the merits. j 8, In the Diablo canyon cace, the licsnse there was l L l 1 9' still pending. No objsstion was mads by the parties to -
.l ,
10 l the assumption of jurisdiction by the Liccasing Beard. 1 11 i No prejudice was found to result in t2hia casa -- in this 12 casa, withcut any objection frcm anybcdy. The license 13 waa iacued on June 26th, 1973, en applicatin to be filed l 14 ij scme three m:nths ea--licr. l 1 i*l r l
- 5 It would be msvaro orejudice to CGSZ if it cunnet. '
!d t a.cvr.: the luol hecausa of the cost of ctorage, inspection, .
.l I
, , security, maintaining inc;cchica, and to fort %.. So thero l li i l
fa i are distinct differsnces betroen the facta in Diablo and I i is ' tho precent. ! i f New the next peint te make relatss to the fact 20 ] ti; I that the Ccmmicsion, through delagated cuhhority, has ; 22 N alrecdy made the findings apprcprista for the iesuanco Of ile 23j ,, the Part 70 licanco, and it i.3 in 2;tirtance. Yners ars Il ' I wN Nw) ] no h bEh k ) $ Ns )ba S .[ O ev )N p n ) 8 . { &,
# b =c DDy 3 . CS $ 57. . .n Un*[ *.Ya"[ O D Mh'$ nd Eb n[3
-I .
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25-13 jwb 3008 I that the cc;mrliss.d.cn made undar 70. 22, 2.nd the rest of O 2 me== vo, == a99rovriese, to suctity *ne ic=="uce oe eae 3 license under the Contninaion's rul23. ; i and UWB 4 l ar fois 5 6 , 1 7 8 1 9il i 10 i I I I I l 11 s 12 , i I i r! I i g* m , ; 1 vl ?
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3009 26AR ******* i arl ! 7or thic reason 7. also m.ibmit that the licence -- 2 that the notion chould be denied becaus3 the cotion totally . l 3 ' ignorca the relevant criteria to the in manca of Part ~'O ! a licenses. I 5 The motion hac -- does n ching to meet the 6 requirements for motion of Section 2.730 which includes -- ! l 7 CHAIR 1!AN SECHHCE?ER: I ucnt to ask you one 8 question. On the Part 70 license, you can. car anything g about the financial impacts that are alleged hero. 10 ME. CCNMER: No, they cay that if the Applicent 3: is financially qualified to do things under the licence, 12 which is to in this cace re::ei ta, pocacas, inspect, and . l
,. 33 store unirradiated fual. i I
34 They do net hava z.nything to do with the overall uith::ata qualifications. 33 .; I 16 CHAIBM107 32CHHOEFE3: I tako it !.t nico has l 1 j .7 nothing to do with -- who'c going to end u? paying for 13
- U*
i jgl MR. CC;'UER: Woll, I'll come to that point hora I i 20 in cout a minute. 1 CHAIRMAN BZCEHCEFER: Okay. !
.3. .,.
M3. CONNER: The motio1 is defactivo in that it i
, , . , , fail: 96011y to meet the r3 quits x.ta cl.at 2.7M cays must M i;
!l I'
24 2a3 on 3 :stion,. hata grc:nds .71:h particularitf, canc 5M?50ftiE 32fida'Tici;r '!E9:23 ;7?TC5Jiate-25 '; 720:?3 i 4
I ar2 J 310 1 This motion, not quite two pagas, la full of n ( 2 conclucions, none er which arc auopertad by '.ny facte, t 3 ow m--. *o. .. o".h.".~.i.d.., e "o t.'..^.. r., ~. ".",'.."a"..'?., ~i ', t.ry~ . 5 ', . ^. , . 4 In factr they are motti r ' c nu, , ', t 5 The conclusicna thus thera 12 no ne.sd to brin l 1 i G the f.m1 on sita, becauce ch a l'..c.7 lo nd '.n g da ta '..:..a h .wn ! l 7 extended, that shcus the total ignorance of tha cittation. l i d It .sr.yc the pruanca a:.' :he 501 wc'2'.d cm It:.bu to l t
- 9. c0cca and riak undul.v bc2:n9 5"J t.oo.n.ia. ',
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l ta fl with the storago and the other vn:2rc " mentio. 20, il the-
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! Scard can take judicial,, official notico of this fact, that O
y 2 unirradiated fuel is not highly toxic. 3 The risk of it is a repeat of tha ac;na thiaga 4 that I have just talked abcut, and no mcra. Thera la ncthing S clos in this. 6 So wo submit: thnt as a motica i.: is woefully 7 y defe.ctive, and the basis stated for the ; ollef is equally S defectivo. 9 Now, finally, ne would note that undur tha 10 Virgi'nia Ntroleu n Jobbers rule, as I've already said, under n Geotion 2.780 (o) , what we are derling with hero in effect i:: 12 ' . J. I.ction for a sthy cf a duly granted licon3a
, b
, th 9
. .s 13 cuthcrized arm of the Occrmiacion.
l
) J ll u To de this , the mcVing party tr.ua t make caver'.1 15 ,
I ahcVings, ncno of which he.ve been nada here. The MV?? hac I jG,f nat nde a ;trong shewir.3 that it is lihely to prevail - 1 l 17l uren the '.:crito. f
- I i
gg I Chey have nr,t chewn that the party vauld be . 1 I 4 irrepar:bly injur2d unlaco the stay la granted. 29 They have not considered whe.ther the granting _u. I of the sta.v uculd hc.rm other o. nrtica. i
- e.
n ali
-~ In fact. they ..;ncr2d it. ; ,
1
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' il "ir.L,1*f s t h 3 7 .'.O.7 8 2'.Z '.1 30 2h0' Jing Sha, TOC":'IGr a.2 g3 .i '
i _ .D.
;o why, '
_ u b?.i J intare.ct lia3y ux0J.T. : in ::la *u;'.4 2 :;al 'nt !
)
v) ,, 4 e nes. = n ne. t l l
1 ar4 3012 1 In other words, your Honor -- the Board, we <"'h""* l m (_) 2 that thic motion should be douled. The 2 card chculd first , l 3 deny jurisdiction. 4 Failing that, th3 Board should deny the motion 5 on the precedural grounds that it loss not meet tha 6 requirements of the rules, and if it reaches the merits, 7 that none have been shown. I 8 CHAIRMAN 35CUECEFE?.: One further questions i 9 Is there any mtans or is there 3.ny acchanism 10 by which your having the duel on site could in any way
;; l .sffect the recolucion of any of tho issues that are befera I
i 12 i us, that you could concoiva ci? I i 13j MR. CCNiiER: No '.127 I mean, tha technical ataff sv '
- 4 has alret.dy found that, yeu kncw, the arraagaments for 15 utcrage provida no problem. 1 ?.rtainly c2n't think cf 16l anything that -- assuming th:. hhere wsuld ':e any pcchlen L .
17 '- ultimately with licensing such thca tha fual 5: auld htvt to i - Ja I be cent s0mcwhara else.
;g I would submit that in boil.3 down to the airpia (
s 20 fcct that this warehouse is as cheap as the enc in Wilmington, 41 North Carolina. Much cheater. - I z2 ;
- m. w.m~ rx.. , zw
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'l if the license e?.culd be d:nied, tha c;9:ating liesn.'s l'
23[h ! 12 y shou:.C 3e denied, it '.1cu:.i hc no grut d?.ilicu?.ty to clip . rs a ('-
~
- ::c.ch er chip is 21:s,:=ra:
23 j : u
1 l ar5 30D 1 MR. CON 1ER: We might oven cell it at public j h J 2 auction. 3 (Laughter.) 4 CHAIu!!AM DECIHIC2FER: Okay. Well, Ma. Kosik or -- 5 MR. FELDMAN: ~c. you want the oths partion to 6 add:cesu 'chis, or shall va do it? 7 CllAIRM,W DEC11110LTER: I guesa -- Mr. Saile, do you i 3 have any ceremonts? l 9 MR. !!E1LE : Mr. ChairrLan, I think that I will have I l 10 a coment. !!owever, I would like to hear what the Niami ) l 1; Valley Power Project arguas in tarrus of its substantive 12 requeet, and if at all poanible, I would like to hear a littlo 13 ' nero frcm the applicant of the economic ro2.uons why the O ga inol ought to in fact be brcught up now, ao oppocod to lator. l I 15 I Now, of ccurca, if the Applicant proforn not to ; g do that, or the Eourd prafora not to request that informa-I i 17 i! tion, that's fints, but it might help un ta ma%ing up our
,g mindo as to whacher #c cuppcrt thia motion.
ggj Go I gaoos wh:2 I' a saying riuht now la thn: I'd t 20 like to defor to the project and Dr. Fankhauser. I'm 23 interacted in finding out, I auppona, at much na I can , i
+!
about the variotta facCone why it Chould Or .1h0M13 Dot Sc [ l t l l 23 ! ca the prouiaco, and 12 all things runia >qu a:.. , tha 12 ! 3 d it haa no suba:antini cffact en the ccep x,r, tMn I ; o d t
]j 30 ~3 RO r3330a '/hy it $henld, D'3 b'"Ol'.g d h d'") .
s ~ , l m. 1
ar6 3014 1 So I would like to defar cur position here and 2 hear a littis more from the parties.:. 3 CHAIRMAN BECUHCEFE2: Wall, uc tvill all have a , 4 chance to go around. 5 Dr. Fankhauser? ; I 6 CRAL ARGUMENT OF DR. FAbimIAUSEL. ! 7 DR. FANICIAUS22: I think that in the event the NRC g does permit fuel to be brought onto the Zirmer site in da g middle of the hearing process, that the NRC credibility ! 10 .will be compromised; that they permit fuel to he brought on jj before an cperating licensa has been issued casanhially . 12 underaccres what many people fael to be the casa, and that is 13 that it is the foregone conclusicn by the Nnc that they will
;4 issue an operator's licence.
15 And I think that particularly in light of ; l i6 Three Mile Island, that the NT.C can ill afford to take steps ' j I7 which will undcrmine the credibility. I l 1 g There is cartainly, if one icoks at cost-benefit g3 analysis in this case, one finds many costs and few banc. fits. i l 20 Cortainly there will to a minimum of a year
' 'I { before this fuel will be uccal.le, in other words, before it i ,
I I can be used on site. ! 22 I i .
-23 i, C'hers is, in the event that fual la tr ught en
.p
,l site -- I would point to 2n history of the nuclar.: ind:se y '
l vhich includes sabotage of storad Inal.
u cr7 3015 1 There is information from Joseph Delaney, who is i 1 ()
,m 2 in the NRC Ocpartment of Fuel Licensing that one probacia 3 orplanation for why there is a desira te necro fu51 cn the 4 Simmer site, is that follcwing Three Mile Island, thcrs was a 5 dramatic drop in 'the requests for fabricated fuel. And 6 thaf the fabricator, the private fabricator of that fuel, is 7 looking to use the Applicant's terma.for unrehouses.
Si And'I think that it is inappropriato to tura i i . 9[i the Zinmar facility into a nuclear fuel depecitory. - 10 CHAIRMAN BECHHOEFER: For its own fuel? I 11 l MR. FANZHAUSZR: Again thct prenuppeces that a l
.i 1
i 12 li licence trill in fact be issued, and I thiah : hat thet is not a ' i I e,s, 13 [l foregone conclusion until all cutstanding isauan have i
\ s/
I
- 4 i bcon resolved. '
i CHAIDIAM 2202HOEFCE: Eall, what differenca dces ', 13 i . p3 it make whether the fuel is on the site or not on ths aite? 1,s ! DR. FANKHAUSGR: It ;na::co e, number Of diffarances I cartainly to the ratepay ars in Circinr.ati, who will have to 16 l l 19 h pay for the inenranca that's been taken out to cover that.
?0 We will have to be enbjected to the added dangers ,
i
- i and regardloca of whether cne argues of tha intansity of 11 ;
22 9 the danger that is regrasented by unirradi2ted fuel, thera il
., j! is unnichakably a real 11 ger that dces enist fr:m that 3,
fh I c.his chat ta Etisfy COI.pcante 'nis.c to : urn 25
' t, h P 007
, 'a ?r.
arB 3016 1 Zimmer into a fuel depository wculd be inappropriate. O 2 certaiatr timias i= a e == i="ue- ra =r oviat=a-3 the upper managert.ent of this utility has rz.de yet another 4 decision-making error in taking out the accessary insuranca s of two years before the plant will actually go into oparation, s and I thin _k that they have made that . error, but just 7 because they made that arror in no excuse to permit thom to 9 bring the fuel on cita. 9 It certainly in not cur purpoco to bail then out. 10 In terms of whether er not thera are other issues 11 relating to this hearing which apply to that fuel, I think 12 that in fact if we exsmine the contentions, wa vill find cnc of my contentions relates to the iaadequacy of emergency O p" ,l 3,3 planning relating to the transportation of Luc 1 car fuel. 6 gg CHAIRPJtN EECUHOE?ER: Now warn't that opont fuel? !' jg I think your content: ion deals with spent fuel. i DR. FAUKHAUSER: I'm no t certain. I don't bellw a lie g it was spent fual, but I may be -- that remaina to be -- (Beard conferring.) 39 20 DR. FAMKHAU3ER: I would admit that the transport
! l of spent fuel certainly ccnetitutoa the = cat dangorona 33 3 (!
aspect of transpcrting nuclear enteria13. ll t n ! l
-1 l
t
- y. l
- 12. 2nIAEER: Arc you rafarrinc to your contention 3' '
i gj DR. PMIKHAUSER: ' do not kaov tho anti:four1. CHA!PJW,1 3EOP.EC 07'JR : T:2a . 7 yo a, .. .\ h
ar9 3017 1' radicactive.matorial-. 2 MR. BRENNER: Would it help if I read contention 57 1 3 CHAIRMAN BECHHOEFER: Yes, that says just 4 radioactive materials. { 5 .MR. BRENUER: Connention S statas: "Thers ara 6 no claims to provide knowledge and training of the populace 7 and communities through which radioactive materials will be 6 transported, sufficient to allow them to be abla to cope { l ! 9' with transportation accidents." 10 DR. FANKHAUJuR: I think that contention cicarly i 11 covers transportation of fuel. ,
.. I 12 CHAIPJiAN BECHHOEFER: Well, I Uculd have to refer !
53 to the responses that you sent in to tha motion for autmary I
;,; dieposition, but I don't really recall what the contentien l
15 is -- sell, anywcy, proceed. ; 33 ; DR. FANKHACSER: Well, I think that . in summa: y ; !
. . . that the cocts of -- era insignificant -- the cocts ara .
jg potentially high and the benefits are incignificant, and I 39 thin!t that it would ba entiraly appropriate and commendable 1 20 for the Board to chov that that would be required to say l 4 g no to thoce corporations who trish to use and officialy- turn M.mmer into a fuel depository, i-22 t 3,: ! CHAIR!!AM DECHECEFER: ;13 . X:sik ' or Mr. Feld:aan?
..,. Ii,,. MR. FELDMrJT: 1 will be addreuaing this.
r I
/ p
~
T 3013 ar10-1 ORAL ARGUMENT OF MR. FILOMAN, ON BEHALF OF O 2 MIAMI vAttrv rowsR rRoazcT. MR. FELDMAN: As to the mattor of jurisdiction, 3l 4 I would support what Mr. Brenner has said regarding tha': 5 issue. 6 We, of course, do beliava that the Board has juria-l 7 diction to decide this issue. 8 As to the merits of the issus, I think that for 9i the Board to deny this motion would be to render this entire 10 proceeding a fazce for the reason that has just been brought 11 out by Dr. Fankhauser, that his contention No. 5 deals 12 specifically with the transportation of radicactive material. 13 I don't think anyone would say that unspent fuel 14 or new fuel is not radioactive. It certainly is. And that i 1 is I for the Board to not stay this license, allowing the fuel i 16 to be stored on site, would in effect decide this issue I before Dr. Fankhauser hea oven an opportunity to peccent hic 17 l i case.
)
18l 19 Secondly, I think thct Mr. Connor indicated 20 in his argument that Part 70 does deal with the financini 2; . ibility of the Applicants, and that's one of our contentions, , I ! 1 32 , too, and that hasn't been addressed as yet either, and won't , I l 23 , be for scme months until ne adjourn thea hearings, j I 2 ;., 'o.l Therafere, it w uld also prejudice Our case. l l {' en .. Additienally --
- a .
ll
!! P0)RORjBBL !
aril 3019
~
1 CHAIRMAN BECHEOEFER: Well, do you have any renoon O 2 to think thae che co te or exseneee invetved 1a thie =aivvice -,
'3 first that they can be very substantial, but_second that there 4 won't be as great or greater costs to leave the fuel elsewhera?
5 I assume that there must be some contractual l l l 6 commitments by the Applicants that if they don't start there, 7 they've got to start some place. 8 MR. FELCMAN: Yes. I do have reason to believe 9 that it would be quite expansivo to store it here, and this 10 is the reason it has to do with questions of security, 11 which I think is probably the greatest lasuo here. I believe 12 that we have no public knowledge as to the security measures 13 taken by the Applicant to protect the fuel on the sight,
.O ja but obviously they have some plans regarding this..
15 It is listed as -- in Mo. 5 in this letter from 16 ft. Crowe at CGSE, dated August 7, 1979, that I received, 17 and I guess everyone received. 18 Obviously security is an important iaana, and I i 39 think that that will be very expensive for CGGS and l 20 concequsntly for all of us in this area, and my reason behind this is that back in June, there was a peaceful demcastration 21 ! 22 ct the ",immer facility, and thic vcs bcfcro the fuel wcn f i 1 g[ even brought on site. {- gl I was there r.yself, and-there must have been 500 , A i V ,, l policemun there to protect that 31t4, when thar2's no fuel en 3 -! d
I 3020 ar12 I sito, and I would iriagine that their security being as tight l 2 as it is, that they're going to have more police there, and 3 paying 500 police, or moro, whaturer their rate ic overy day 4 for an entire year, before they even need it on cite, is 3 awfully expensive, and it looks like they c,ra going to have l 6 an entire polico force out thero, and I don't think we 7 should have to bear-that burdon, when it's unnecessary. 8 The fuel is probably being stored with sufficient , I 9 -security where it is now. Why should we'have that additional 10 security problem here when we just don't need it? 11 CHAIRMAN BECHHOEFER: You're obviously paying for , i 12 I it, customera are paying for it uhcrever it is stored. 13 MR. FELDMAN: Perhaps it is a more secure spot. 14 Obviously they fac1 they need very tight security on the 15 spot, or they vouldn't have shown that incredible demon'atration IG of force that they did on June 3rd with helicoptern, police 17 dogs, SEy teams, whatavsr, and there wasn't any fcel oa 18 site. 10 Now we're going to have fuel en site, and I'm 20 just afraid of what show of forco we're going to have, and I 21 l we're going to have to pay for it, when it is totally 22 annecessary, 23 : In addition, wa don't even k.cw if they ara
..' 's.si ' going to get their licenso granted. Why chenld wo under7o 2?'
O
- u. all of this cont? It's being stcrsd tharc, we':2 paying j ,
I i j ' a P00R ORIGINM :
r- q ar13 3021 i for that storage, that's fino, but why should we undergo ()' 2 this incredible expense that wa ara going to have to in=ur 3 for the security measures, if we dcn't hvio it right nc1? 4 This license may be denied, and the whole thing S would be moot. 9 There is no doubt there is a accurity probleu 7 that has to do, of course, with the probista of sabotage, 3 or terrorists that no one can count on % hat's going to sappts, 9 know what's going to happen. 10 CHAIRMAN SECHHOEFER: Dc you have any reason 11 to believa that the Staff is keeping track of the security 12 problems? 13 Thi- lettor indicates to ma that the Staff hac (:) ;4 it undar survo,!11ance, i i and 26 15[ 1 i 16 17 10
, ?
19 ' . I 20 l 21 i 22 l' ! 23 I 34 ' i 1 1. P00RDEINAL: . i
I 1 3022 . i l 1 ! 10 david MR. FELDMAN: I hava -- j 8 2 l]'/idl
'% CHAIR!&.H BECEHOEFER: This inforr.aticn --
3 take 27 MR. FELD!Gli: Right. The staff indicates if 4 the security program is implementad it's ek.1y with them, but 3 what I'm saing is I view the sacurity program before G the fuel in on-site, and I think it'a going to be sven 7 more strict there, and I don't think we should be foxxd 8 to pay for this when we don't need it. 9 ' CHAIRMAN BECEHOETER: idell, are you aware, there 10 are appeal board decis.'ons which say that w2 really can't U consider the financial impacts of -~ ,well, anything having 12 to do with plant construction or operation ucept incefar I as it may affect financici qualifiestions. 3 "s h MR. FELDMAN: That's one of our contentions, and 15 Pi we think the cost of funding an antire police force for a l year is just going to be outrageous, and I thinh -- I don't Mf iI know what it will do to fincncial ability of this ccmcany IO to run this plant, but that's cna of our cententions. I9 In addition, there's the other contention of i 20 Dr. Fankhaussr, which is obviously directly en point, and
'3 would be totally rendered worthins were the board to deny "h t this motion !
After all, why evsn have thic hearing? Why net 2s [ just tall them to start cparating. After all, as Mr. Conner O -
"D !
said, the place is safe. Liow we're saying it's okay sc ,
- l P00R BER :
I
l 3023
. david 2 I transport the radioactive :raterialc. ;
1 2 Why even certify this contention? I -- 3 CHAIRM?di 3ECHHOEFER: W il, I -- I - for cne thing,
'1 I haven't read the contention, and I have to 1cok at tho 1 I
a undarlying papers, but I haven't read it to apply to spent } I I I G fuel only. l 7 liR. FELDMAN: It says radiocchive material. 8 CHAIRMIOT BECHHOEFER: I think other papers have t 9 been filed in discove.ty. I'd have to rechcck it. I don't 10 have it with me, but my impression was -~
. 11 DR. ?AIGAUSER: I cartainly have never given i 12 any indication -- .j ;, is MR. DRENNER: Mr. Chairman,we're going out of i ,
1; order now. l 1 15 DR. FAIM:HI:. USER: I'm sorry. Tho_a's scme 16 I discussion about -- CHAIPliAN BEC3HOEFER: All right, now -- 17 l.$ I have nothing further at this jal MR.. FELDMAN: t 10 l point, your Honor. CHAIRErdi BECHEOEFER: I was going to also ack: 20 . t 21 isn't thera a difference where the coc2aiscion has already 1; ! l issued a licence? This ic what w 're faced with. The j l
.22 f .
33 [' f Csti9sion has issced a license which tachnically the i
#.+ y' iccua of a license wasn't under dir ct jurisdiction. 'le ,
h- gg lI may or m.y net. F>ut acscue that we ha"2 juricdiction to \ P00R ORIGINkl. ,
I 3024 david 3 I modify thatlicense. f 2 Aren't we -- should we look a little harder at ! 1 3 the reasons for doing so? Prene s y the Commission i 4 has gone through a normal process for issuing that other i I 5 license. 6 MR. FELDfGN: I'd be glad to address that i ! l 7 your Honor. l
\
8 I think that this licence was iccued. If si - l 9 memory serves me correctly, it was issued back in lI 10 '78. 7. hat may have been befce these contentions were i 11 even -- at least the financial one. I'm not sure when 12 Dr. Fankhauser's contention was cu':mitted, but they may tai have been unaware of that contention when they granted the 14 license, and this beard iu aware of thosa contentiens and 33 therefore can remedy the situation right new, which is 16 what we're hopeful it will do. We feel it should do. i 17 Thank you. 10 CHAIRMAN BECHi103FER: Oh, let's sec. I'm not 79 aure what order, but norr, ally I gucas wc'd hear from the
) . 20 applicant or the staff, either one. ,1 21 MR. CONNER: Bir. Branner led off.
3 CHAIRMAN BECH2GEF52: Chay, Mr. Brenner, why I 22 J
; 2a i don't you-- - 1 24 MR. CONNER: If you want to s :ny in whatever order O
Pg ggg as ""'=" '"- t
l 3025 david 4 I MR. BRENNER: With respect to jurisdiction and 2 come of Mr. Conner's cocraents indicate particularly -- I 3 think there are three different groupings of jurisdiction. 4 There are matters which are totally beyond the jurisdiction 5 of the board, even if some arguable nanus on the 6 mezia -- on the cubstance of it could be raised. CHAIRMAN BECHEOEFER: The antitrust considerations? I
'7 B MR. BRE'mER: For example, in the Marble Hill case j l
9 on antitrust considerations. For example, tha New England l
'10 Power case, which Mr. Conner cited. What we have before ,
j i i 11 us is not such a mattar, I submit, because of the 12 Costnission's language in the Diablo Canycn case. i ta I will agree with Mr. Cenner that what they did l O is less than clear, but I would note that they confirm the l
. 14 ;
l F 15 ' jurisdiction that the licensing board chose to exercise 1 rather than stating, "What you did was wcng, but we'll i 16 g7 ratify it after the fact, since ve have a fait accompli" 1 13' They could have said it that way, but they didn't.
' I I think the integral part language is key. But i.
i 19 t
/ 20 the integral part language has to be looked at in context. Il 21 cannot believo it means what would be the cocond aspect of the mattors before the board; in a situation where scmsthing 22f i
23 : would be directly a part of an issue to be decided by the i L:s i boa-d. l
- : l O_. n! In such a case tha st'# could not act. The :
I 3025 i, david 5 1 The commission did not use " integral" to mean , 4 (f 2 that because they also diccucced hon a part 70 license can l 3 bo issued separately. And examp?.e -- although I don't have 4 the specific case cite -- in that type of natter might be, i 5 if I recall, in the Vermont Yanhoe situation. The staff G issued an amendment to the operatinrf licence which dealt j
'7 with the very quantion that was then being concidered by 8 the adjudicatory board,namely, uhether the centainment --
9 I believe it was the containment -- should bo isorted or not, to and the board -- I believe it was the appeal board -- acid }
}
11 that was a no-no, or at least had some very harsh words j I2 about it. 13 We're not talking about that hare either. Rather, 14 we're dealing with something in between those two extremes, 15 , namaly, an action which the staff had full authority to 16 take a year ago, but also an actionwhich ia sufficiently 17 related to the otbject matter that this board can assert 18 juricdiction; that is precicely what 2.717(b) was designed i j l 19 to handia. i l 20 I agree with Mr. Conner's ccanents to the usoc l 21 for that regulations it was to permit the staff to act 22 i in'a case that was not directly ':elore the board but i d nevertheless rein 3d. l y,4 i So I think for theso reasonc como of fe. Cor cr's O. . OO N ' M h h O $ { O BR$yg l
l 3027
'davio6 1' jurisdiction to act here if it chooses to e.norcise that i i
h 2 jurisdiction. 3 With respect to the merits, I be!.ieve nobody 1 4 has refuted my initial point, that no centsntiens have been 5 raised with respect to any regulations that are not being 6 met or will not be met by the issuance or by the 7 continued esistence of this license, the part 70 license. 8 What we have are obviously thinly disguised, g after the fact rationalizations, I j 10 Dr. Fankhauser had a who13 year b conplain if he 13 really thought his centention was related to that license. g And in fact he ~ is not even the one to file the motion. g With respect to fin ncial qualifications, we still O y have centention requirements; l I'll remind the board that 13 i in Diatb Canyon it is my recollection that the parties came 16 f rthwith specific issues that they wanted litigated that 77 was directly related to that fuel. That is not the situaticn
!G here.
1 g There is not one ceintilla or basis of i 20 specificity that the actions being taken here would adversely I g affect the overa31 financial qualificatien of CG & E to operate tha facility.
,, Ane the esma of such a centen:icn and beses g cro not2 worthy. We have heard acte argurents either ts .I way with nspect to which way the ecenemic coats might fall.
i' ic P00R M iEL ,
l i 3028 1 david 7 ; I would ask the board in whatever decision l it reaches to not rely on that either way because we (] v 2 l 3 simply have no basis by way of affidavits or any other l 4 specificity as to what the costs vould be either way, either f r the reasons I gave in my initial statement -- I do not 5 believe that matters, because the board not need not reach 6, that point. 7 8 N M BECHHOEFER: M. Conner. MR. CONNER: Mr. Chairman, I think we have set g, f r h our legal position as to jurisdiction clearly j 10 enough. I don't knew that we need to add anything to that
)
because none of the intervenors raised any legal points. I would emphasise, though, that even when given the opportunity 8 q 12 L' to improve their motion, they simply continued to give
,4 conclusions, innuendos, and the nearest thing we had to a concrete statement was the threat of force bv the civil 16 demonstrators at the site that Mr. Feldman observed while 17 i
he was there, apparently. That might be involved. 13 No fact, as requircd by the Commission's rules, 10 .
.,0 have been submitted. The 2.730 reTaires that such a =otion 4
like this be supported; 2.708(a) certainly requires a streng showing for stay here; assreing, contrary to 3: pectatien , 3 .
- u. o 4 l that the board would grant tha metion, obviously car channel i 23 , -
^
would be to appeal irmediately to the cencicaicn On the ! u / ) grounds that the ;tay did not raet the r2quirsments tt l 't'~') 25 , ' i k"'qm",
I 3029 l l l \ david 3 I reruit ms and get the matter resolved, since of course l l 2 thu wholu thing turns on the interpretation of the Commission's 3 Iinblo Canyon case. 1 4 Dut I think that enphasizes that r. hat motion is C 5' totally defective, and I just don't see how the board a 6 coulil possibly grant it. i 1 7 As to Dr. Fankhauser's ctatements, I agraa that 8 I t\in't if you chock the r2 cords in recponse to the notion 9 .for suamary disposition, that his contention new is limited j 10 to Jrradiated fuel. It cold be brcadened. As Dr. Fankhauser l 11 now sugyests, it could be broadened and we wouldn't be able 72 to a:tip bricks to build it. In other verda, anything l g t! rat cont. tins radiocctivity wouldn't be able to be shippod, l' ptrhaps.
;4 j And thec illustrates the flexibility of 15 l 10 j D:. Fankhauser's at d Mr. Feldman's thinking.
17 But in any event, no one has shotm a single fact I
;gl f cm the intervenors as to why the duly authorized cation of i
1
;g j tae Office of Nuclear Matorial Safeguards and Safety should l
i : 20 ha set aside and stayed on tha basis of this bad motion, f l t 21 MR. BRENUER: Mr. Chairman? '
} l n[ CHAIFJIAN BECHZ0EFER: I know we probs ly shcul,in't 4
'l m ! cron consider factuel state:asnts by attorneys, but for
~~ l ,
I y; the banefit of Mr. Scile, could you -- dc you hr.cw anythir.g ; j \ gl =cm abett the varions cocts? Whetherernotwe'llrolyenit,l 6
. --~. . . ._
t 3030 i david 9 I ! i I don't know, 2 ' MR. CONNER: I don't know why I shou.1.d have to 3 respond to something as to statonents that Mr. Feldman can't ) I even back up. He had reazcn to believe it would cost more. 5 ' Did he say why? lio , essentially the conpany is, I think, 6 paying S30,000 for storage per month of tha fuel right
, now, and it's going to go up. Insurance wenld go up.
8 The point remains -- 9 Y cu'ra paying 3nsurance CHAIRVRT BECIGCEFER: j t 3 10 ' t now? lI MR. C0;mER: We're paying incurance. Uc've i 12 l been paying indemnity to the Commission altsady. That's j l, O e ta, dr the r- **
- o=1e =
- ca===ee-The fact remains that costs would go up if the 1
fuel rsmains stored by sonobcdy sise, other than in the U( d pl ce that is designed to hold such fuel. l I U And I think in terms of evidence, the beard can M! , taks official notice oi! the fact that ahipracts of raiiated I9}i fuci present no particular health and safety hazard te f j 20 anybody. They cartainly are cent in chipping cacks. M so we ura dealing here with scuething that i I horders -- verges on the aboe.rd in terms of a:Uansion of i Uf U health and safety probis=c. Obvio::cly, every mova that l
!! l 24d is ::nde with this fuel will to in acccrdance '.rith the I s
25 l0. regnhtiens in tha: torns of the lican se that have been bem.d i q y
1 3001 ' david 10 8 tc provide' adequate cafety, and that alone should bc + O 2 aievo=1*1ve or -- z >or=v, 1 me>=t uniz=edieted feet. 3 -CHAIRMAN BECHHOZFER: Mr. Brenner? 4 MR. BRENNER: !tr. Chairnan, I realize I l 5 already had my piece, but theru was one minor point I forget. ! l 6 Ihad a chance to think since one of your initial questions of l ., 3 7 se when I first-opened up with respect to whether the a critsria for stay should obtain, and I can address that 9 very, very briefly. 10 CHAIPS3 3ECHHOEFER: All right. It MR. 3RENNER: ~; stated at the beginning that while 12 I chought many of tho same consideration.3 sould obtain, 1 ; 13 , you would not have to havo a streng a showing at that O u] r required for stay. ; 15 And that is still :oy censlucion. I would ask If:s the board to conaider the fact that under 2.717(b) it 17 j Gays the order may be rC3ified by the preciding Officer as 18 appropriatd for the purpass of the proceeding. If we have i tg a cognica.bla, valid contention going to the prospcotivo l 3 fuel shipment, which l' don't beliove we do -- het if wo did, l p I think the board would want to taka into acecunt the fact nl that that concantion uc:Id.be rendered moct, if the action el
,3- 4 shipping the feel una allowed t.,precetd. .i n ll' j l r, other worde, it would be arch the 3 2e 3l .
O ,,r
+
cer.mi de= m = a n - u a n e= m u p = m a n e w = er e y o u h e ve i
t 3032 1 david 11 1 contentions. { l 2 You dn't have to mako a showing giving rise to 3 the critoria for a stay in order to be perr.itted to try 1 4, the issues before the licensa is issued. It's not 5 exactly the same situation, but I think it's acuewhat closer 6 to that. And in Diablo Canyon, the commiction was semcwhat 7 concerned with that in stating that they would review the 8 ::tter tit that point, evan though it might otherwise , t technically be ccasidered intolocutory. Out I don't think 9l l l 10 the board has to worry about it because I don't think that-- 11 and that is the staff's Otrong view -- that thero is j 12 absolutely not a scintilla of a cognizable contention being 13 sised by this motion. ) I s 14 MR.ColmER: Mr. Chairman sinca Mr. Brennor got bi a chance to say that point, I want to emphacima ths.t I
)
i 13 , think that is'a total misreading cf 2.730 because a duly 37 authorized, constituted, legal licenca nas iss;.ed over a
, f ja ' year ago, and no mattar what you enil it, if you were to act l 19
! on that motion favorably, you sould sustain that licencu, and
," \
l 20 ! you'd be doing e::actly what the Cornission said should be l 3FPealed directly to them on tho haris of the Diablo Canyon 21l ..
.s .,
/m em i dccision. ;
1 i I
!' CHA PFAN BEC~dEC2?ER: Ecu did ti.s ConsolidatPi c., i i
. 2dison casc deal with thut? r2 aline there may h?.vc bnen j
#4 s .
'l ,_ l n:rc direct rafarence to thc contenticna in i?aut or the !
o ,
_ . ~ . _ _ _ _ . _. _. .. _ . _ _ _ _ _ __. _. _ . . _ _ __. _ ___-_ ___-__._ ___ _ _ . 3033
.6 avid 12 'l matters in issue, but I. don't think'the appeal board -- did h 2 the appeal board require a shcWing undar Virginia Petroleum 3 Jobbers? l 4 I don't think 7t?8 was even in the regulations 5 then. But Virginia Petrolaum Jobbers was.
6 MR. CONNER: Virginia Vetroleum Jcbbers was on the 7 books, and all this does is copy it,.as we know. 8 CHAIRMAN BBCEHOEFER: Right. Now did -- 9 MR. CONNER: If you recall, the question came 10 up recently. We did not get that much telecopied. It's 11 my understanding that the only thing that was involved in 12 that decision, the Indian Point decision, uas the staff's 13 condition imposed during the pendency of this matter before 14 the licensing board upon a proper delegation from the 15 Conuniasion. } 16 Now, I simply don't know whether the appeal i 17 board had been given jurisdiction over that preceeding at 18 ! that time or not, but I don't think it even involved a , l l 19 stay. I think it involved the imposition of a ccndition. 20 CHAIRMAN BECEHO3FER: Mr. ,Brenner? 21 MR. BRENNER: One last vary quick word on this 22 sarea subject., I don't think ny statacent is wrong 23 because of 2.738. Otherwica ue would ba in a catch 22 i , si nation. Con't forget that 2.717(b) 12 designed to j 24l
, ; t 25 ]
handle situatisnt: liho thia one wher.2 tha stnff can act l ,
.f j i
3034 ) david 13 ~1 without prior notice to tha board and the parties. O 2 se there 1e ne grior net 1=e zeeuired sofore 3 issuance of this type of license, if woa cept the fact that 4 you vould always need a stay critaria in order to have 5 a contention related to it. That would be somewhat i 6 ancmalous because . nobody had a chance thefirst time to 7 meet the normal contention type criteria without suffering 8 the possibility of their contentions being rendered moot. 9 CEURMAN BECWOSFER: As far c.s you know, did the
- 10 Concmission issue its normal notice upon issuing the part 11 70 license that a license had bean issued and normally that 12 gives a chance for people to at least raisa questions about l 13 it.
14}i MR. ERENNER: It's my under 'ending that thers is is no requirement to notice the iscucnce of this type of 16 licenso and no notice was in fact issued. I knou for a fact thero was no prior notice, , 17 I believo. And of cotrce that was the poid of my stat =nn: 18 for your'qustion. It in also my belief -- although I do not l 19 l 20 hw for sure - I'll have to check it scmehow. But thero l l 21 was no poct-notice either because none is required for this {
- n. type of part 70 licence, i
3j CEAIE"AN BECEOE E R: Mr. Heile, tra you ccre , d
,i j! in a rosition to answer? I thide 7ec Ne heard all you'll !
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'_w he17 from thd appliC2.nts f.nd St3II.
[ P00R Timm
3035
&vid14 I MR. HEILE: I appraciate that, Mr. Chaiman, and 2 I -- unfortu'tately I really don't feel in a psition from 3 the standpoint of the economics -- and Ire::ognize it's I
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4 not c consideration for the board in this matter. I'm not 5 in a position to really hcVe enough data en the economics 6 of the matter to 'cnow whether it affecta the citizens of 7 Cincinnati one way or the other. 8 So what I will do'io attempt to illuminate that , I i 9 considersticn for my own rencons for either cupIorting ; 10 or not supproting this notic'n to dalay bringing l fuel on the 11 site. 12 I suppcan that it does, in :cy cpinion -- I 13 asnume that would be the opinion of the City that it puts 14 the cart a little before the horse to bring the on-nite 15 tis far in advancs of the obvioun need for fuel. tG The fact that the ccupany has pestponed the g I 17 c:rpected time of the fuel leading indicates to me that it'a is rather sencaless to bring the fuci up hero ofer the cir-cumstances that are in front of us nov. 19l
. 20 But mainly there's been quite a bit of interest 21 surrounding this -- concentrating on this trnneportati:n i
22 ' . of fuels *.c the plant, and I guacc I have nomo concern ; L l 23 4 i4 for theciti=enry thatit might be in the beat interocu of 24 all of us to avoid riny confrentation of thiu nature, nct
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i 4
- 25 ji- necacnarily +,o say thct auch wecid exist, but it seac to I
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3036- , I david 15 I in balance'and in equity that there be no compelli g reason ' O 2 ee h=1 e le ug, ehe ehr aem e e 1eev> it .he=e 1e i 2 3 So the City will support the motion of the Miami Valicy I '4 PowerProjbct. ,
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7 8 9 l. 10 11 12 O 14 15 16 l 17 18 13
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- JWB27 3037 arl 1 However, I would like te comment that there may bc 2 circumtances which would, if' we luxe a shewing from the 3 company, that would indicate to us that the e is a vary goed )
l 4 reauon for balancing these iatcrasts away frem that supoort, l 5 by reasons ofa strong cost analysis for choving that this is i O not going to create an amount of disturbance. 1 l
. 7 .
We would be more than willing to make a consideration l l 8 and fu'nish r you a subsequent opinion on the issue. 9 At thin time, though, given the information and 10 g data thnt I have in front of me, I feel that it's the s if ' cbligation to support that. 12 - Thank you, i 13 CHAIPMut BECEZOEFE3: Okay, Dr. Fankhaucer. j l { 14 ' REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF DR. FANhHAUSER: ! ) 15 Dn. FAMKHAUSER: Yes. I'd like to very briefly 16 respond to one of Mr. Brenner's auggestiona that because a l 17 full year han pasced since the issunnce of a p?rmit'dur!.ng i la , which tir.e I made no move to withdruuing of that permit, 10 now I hoped that that would not carry, that that argumcat 20 imuld not really carry any weight with the neard. 21l But in the event that it might, I should poiat i l l 22ll out that as 19.te c3 the baginning cf the hearings in Jun9, we vera told'by the NRC at Orney, Mr. Barth 23 that thct ; , 1 1 24 i sm. ait had not been issuedi and '.t ic ::t cut ci tac quaccion l - p 25 f for :1yself non tu now thtt.'ic: vas not issued. j
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< P00R ORENAL l wJ __- _ _ _
i 3038 ar2 1 If he himself was unaware of its issuanca --
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\~/ I kncu that he personally was vary agitatad ac nubesqucntly
,I
~! learning that that permit was issued, and ac that I thir.k 4
that it has not been common knowledge, and I hcVe no recollec-5 tion of ever receiving any document from tne Cczmissien 6 stating that that had been in fact issued. 7 Finally, I would say that it is abundantly clear 8 and unmistakably apparent that I do hava a contenti:In 9 that bears directly on the transportation of radioactive 10 materialc, and that contentbn States th2t there are inadequate II i emergency preparations in training through which ccmmunities 12 in which that material will be tranapcrted. 13 I think in the event that you do permit this (~)N
\~ l 14 permir. to stand and the nuclear fuel is brcught on site, ;
l I 15 that it would prejudice my case, and I vocid anh for permis- 3
, l i
Mf sion of the Dourd to immediately cppeal this ruling, so that
.,i
" i my case, my contention on that subject, is not prejudiced. ;
- l. I i l I81 CUAIRMAN BECHEC2FOR: Dr. Fankhaucar, did yer,or i
19 did ycur attorney rsceive a la.tter dated July 2, frcm 2m. 20 Earth, enclosing a ecpy of the licensa? i
'g a i' DR. FAl?P.2AUSER: July 3rd of this yetr?
l I l i- [' i CHAIM!1Gi SECHECEFER: Tec. i 13 3acause he's on the list. 25 DR. FAM12AUSO2: W3 may wall nnvc recei' red that [^T
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ar3 3039 1 . represented by Mr. Brenner. 2 MR. BRENNER: Mr. Chairman, I would like to state 3 that Dr. Fankhausar is stating that Mr. Scrth -- and, in fact, 4 I stipulate myself -- did not know this license had been 5 issued until a time more recently than the initial icuuance 6 is correct. 7 However, it was not as late as June. At the time l l S of the June evidentiary hearing, right .it the beginning, as i o I recall, Mr. Barth stood up and on the record stated that ! to this license had been issued and promised to refersace the , , i ! 11 date and the license number and so forth, and premised to 12 furnish a copy. 13 I believe Dr. Fankhauser may have had an earlier 14 time in mind.
' 15 -
-- DR. FANKEAUSER: It was the day before that. In g fact, it was on the -- it was a lawyer's conference on the 17 Monday preceding the opening of the hearings.
18 MR. BRINNER: I was misspeaking. , I l jg CIiAJW1di BECHUGEFZR: Mr. Barth, or Mr. Brenner j j 1
. I 20 MR. DRENNER: Tha point is that the parties were I l
l g ' notified en the first day of the evidentiary hearing, and I 22 will agree that this is important to the Board, I will .itita j i i 23j; that rr. ?ankhausar should act be penalised for any tima , i . t 3 ] prior to tho'first fay of the evidenitary haaring, when they l
' were n tmed.
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nr4 3040 1 However, the fact remains as late as the 3rd, i 2 he filed a motion en the subject. 3 DR. FANKHAUSER: If it pleaGo the Eocrd -- 4 MR. CONNER: If the Board placsa, ara we going to 5 use the jumping jack approach here, and every time Dr. 6 Fankhauser wants to jump up, he can? 7 CHAIRMAN BECHHCEFER: No, I think it's Ms. Xosik's 8 turn. The Board is aware that I think you .3upported Ms. 9 Kosik's motion, but -- which must have been Tuesday, but to anyway, Mr. Feldman, I should say -- tj REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF MR. FELDMAN, ON BEHALF j2 OF MIAMI VALLEY PCWER PROJECT. MR. FELDMAN: May I address the Board? p 13 d jaj ; If it please the Beard, I only have one small 15 thing to add, and this is in response in somsthing Mr. Conner said. I b.311evo that he has charact:3rized the argument IG 9., , earlier, and that 'vhen I una discussing the pe 0cful demonstra . l
'l gg tion in front of the Zin:mer Plant in Cuna, I ;:now I meant to imply there was any threat of force at that time, it vaa 39 20 entirely peaceful, and I was moraly pointing cut that even e nrrcnton with a peaceful demonstration, that OGLE falt it 21 t .
I _. , , _ ' necessary to respond with a massive shcw of force. j 3"t I f*lt th^* thi8 i""i
- 6 2 " th t n2 23i !
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, , , tho 6:el was on site, the forcs 9culd be even gr n ter, and j
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~ 1 esg afally if there i:. actually any threat of Srca areund, I . l l
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arS 3041 1 would imagine it would be oven gree.ter than that. And that's r t 2 what I meant, s 3 But other than that, I have nothing Jurther to add. l 1 i ( 4 CEAIRMAN BECHHOEFER: Okay. I vos just going to 3 5 say I was going to adjourn. Do you want to -- 6- MR. CONNER: It ceems to me I an entitled to speak 7 as much as they are, or half as much. 8 CHAIRMAN BECHHOEF?R: Okay. 9 MR. CONNER: I wanted to respond to that last 10 point. Certainly it's not within CGE's ability to tall the 11 local polico force what thay should do to control a bunch 12 of people, whatsvor their intentions may be, and that 13 cortainly that inference should not be accepted. ' ( 14 I want to say, I gucco, only one more thing, j 9 15 with respect to Mr. Heile's remarke also, uhich centainad 16 no way to comply with the Ccmmianicn's rule. ,
;7 Mr. Heile in offcet said it'c 2:.1 right to store ja the fuel in semebody'else's back yard, just please don't put i
i ng it near mine, and that seems kind cf his argument, j i 20 The fact remains ther we are entitled, I believe, j l 21 en the Commission's r"les, not upcn thee ctional argn:monts 22 and conclusions of Intervenerc, and it 10 the 2:ard's duty '
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l
' d that lhey do not judga jurisdiction, te carts .nly dany :ne 23 t' l N zotion On its merits.
s 24 H. I N 25 j CHAIF2Wi 220EHCEFER: The Eccrd w3.1'. ;f. .. tb l E00R DaML I l l l l i __.______E___
y - 1 ar6 3042 1 not:icn -- ,
; l (m) 2 MR. BRENMER: Mr. Chai:*aan, c' hic is aire very I i 3 brief. I didn't get a chance to cpeak tc Er. Eoile;s j 4 ccmcents. I had a right to :.2 peak after it cuc up and I --
5 CHAIR Gli BECHHOEFER: Well, make it quick. 6 MR. BRENNER: This is on the last point, en .he l l 7 disturbances and so forth. I 8 I would like merely to state that for local <froup:3 9 to come in and claim that the fuel should not be received } l i 10 because then they would have to pay for i'c or otherwise ; I I l 11 be adversely affected by local demcnstrations, is very l 6 12' analogous t'o rho -- I think one of the lawyer's stories, at ,! l -
,m 13 least, of the defendant who has bean convicted of nurdering j d both his parenta, begging the Court fcr mercy because he is i 14 15 now an orphan.
16 (Laughter.) , 17 CHAIR!O.N 3ECH30EFER: 'les . All right. ja MR. FEISMAN: I think I get o respond to that. I 19 CEUF0Dli BECZHOFER: ! think we ca.n adjourn. 20 I think the Board will take the motion undar advinn. ant.
;3 We vill try and reach a decision by tonorr:w, but if not, .. :
4 l I r! vill be not too long. f , i 3- (Whara". pen , at 7 :12 p .m . , the M2 ring W3C adj n w.'.ad ,l I i e aj. c rscenvene att 9 : 00 a.m. , Frid27, :.uT?st 11, 1973.'s ~ t A \ i
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