ML20195H249
| ML20195H249 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Seabrook  |
| Issue date: | 01/12/1988 |
| From: | Atomic Safety and Licensing Board Panel |
| To: | |
| References | |
| CON-#188-5424 ASLBP, OL, NUDOCS 8801190162 | |
| Download: ML20195H249 (243) | |
Text
{{#Wiki_filter:.- -. . _ . . l o ORIGINAL 4 o UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
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IN THE MATTER OF: DOCKEI NO: PUBLIC SERVICE COMPANY OF ) 50-443-OL
) 50-444-OL NEW HAMPSHIRE, et a1 ) OFF-SITE *
) EMERGENCY (SEABROOK ST AT ION, UNITS 1 AND 2 ) PLANNING EVIDENTIARY HEARING LOCATION: CONCORD, NEW HAMPSHIRE PAGES: 8499 tht'ough 8737 DATE: Januat'y 12, 1988
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Heritage Reporting Corporation O(/Icial Reporters 1220 L Sirret. N.W. wurungion. D.C. 2000$ 1202162s-4a48 8801190162 880112 PDR ADOCh 05000443 T DCD L
O 849':I (_) i UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION l 2 ATOMIC SAFETY AND LICENSING BOARD j S c50T&I 3 4 In the Matter oft )
) Docket Nos.
5 PUBLIC SERVICE COMPANY OF ) 50-44J-OL NEW HAMPSHIRE, et al., ) 50-444-OL 6 ) OFF-SITE EMERGENCY l (SEABROOK STATION, UNITS 1 AND 2) ) PLANNING 7 8 EVIDENTIARY HEARING 9 l Tuesday, 10 January 12, 1988 11 Room 308 Legislative Office Building 12 New Hampshire Statehouse Concord, NH 14 The above-entitled matter came on for he& rind, ' 1 15 pursuant to notice, at 9:01 a. m. i 16 BEFORE: JUDGE IVAN W. SM11H, CHAIRMAN , Atomic Safety and Licensing Board i , 17 U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission , Washington, D. C. 20555 18 JUDGE JERRY HARBOUR, MEMBER 19 Atomic Safety and Licensing Doard l U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission 20 Washington, D. C. 20555 i 21 JUDGE GUSTAVE A. LINENBERGER, J R. , MEMBER 1 Atomic Safety and Licensing Board 22 U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission ; Washington, D. C. 20555 23 24 l 25 ' Heritage Reporting Corporatton I (202) 628-4888 t I
I 8500 i 1 APPEARANCES: k 2 E9e the Aoolicent: \ 3 THOMAS G. DIGNAN, J R. , ESQ. , GEORGE H. LEWALD, ESQ. 4 KATHRYN A. SELLECK, ESG. Hopes & Gray 5 225 Franklin Street Boston, .1 A 02110 6 For the NRC Staff 7 SHERWIN E. TURK, ESO. 8 Office of General Counsel U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission 9 Washington, D. C. 20555 10 For the_ Federal _ Emergency Mananoment Aqency: 11 H. JOSEPH FLYNN, ESG. GEORGE WATSON, ESD. 12 Federal Emergency Management Agency 500 C Street, S. W.
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( 13 Washington, D. C. 20472 14 For the l eie_of N g Hampshire _ 15 GEORGE DANA BISBEE, ASST. ATTY. GEN. GEOFFREY M. HUNTINGTON, ESO. 1 16 State of New Hampshire 25 Capi?.o1 Street 17 Concord, NH 03301 18 For the Cssmonwes_11h of Massagh_useftsi 19 JOHN TRAFICON', ASST. ATTY. GEN. CAROL SNEIDER, ASST. ATTY. GEN. 20 STEPHEN H. OLESKEY, ESQ. Commonwealth of Massachusetts 21 One Ashburton Place, 19th Floor Bant on, MA 02106 23 l 24 25 TO Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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{~} 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 For the New England Coil 1_ilion Aqairapt Nuclear Pollution: 3 ELLYN R. WEISS, ESQ. 4 Harmon & Weisu 2001 S Street, N. W. 5 Washington, D. C. 20009 6 For the Seacoast Anti-Pollution Leangel 7 ROBERT A. BACKUS, ESO. Backus, Meyer, & Solomon 8 116 Lowell Street Manchester, NH 03105 9 JANE DOUGHTY 10 Director Seacoast Anti-Pollution League 11 5 Market Street ; Port arcout h, NH 0380'. 12 O 12 rer 18e Te e er " metee. 14 MATTHEW T. BROCK, ESO. Shaines & McEachern 15 25 Maplewood Avenue P. O. Box 360 i 16 Portsmouth, NH 03801 17 Eor t he__Towra s of Hampton Falls and Nortti Hampton and South Hampton: 18 [ ROBERT A. BACKUS, ESQ. . 19 Backus, Meyer & Solomon l 116 Lowell Street ' 20 Manchester, NH 03105 21 Eor Jhe Town of Arnes bu rv e 22 (No appearance) 23 5 24 25 O Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 6&B-4888
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l i i l 850s ( f4'* 76 grof 1 INDEX 2 WI T NES_S_GE DIRFCI GRQPJ REDIRE13. BECROSS CXB11 3 Panel 1. i MIMI FALLON (Prefiled) 4 BEVERLY HOLLINGWORTH ELIZABETH WEINHOLD 5 by Mr. Backun 8602 by Mr. Dignan 8634 j 6 by Mr. Turk 8639 l by Mr. Brock 8665 r 7 by Mu. Weius 8673 l by Mr. Backus 8675 8 P_p n e l s _ j 9 EDWARD THOMAS i ROBERT BORES j 10 by Mr. Flynn 8683 j by Mr. Oleskey 8710 t 11 j T I 12 [ t 13 EXHIBITS: J1EN: RECDs.REJD: DESCRIPTIORJ, f 14 SAPLL f I 15 7 8633 8633 Videotape rnade by ; Mira i Fallon 16 , t r 17 l l 18 j 19 l 20 21 , l l 22 i 23 P i 24 f 1 25 O ' Heritage Reporting Corporation j (202) 628-4888 [ I
8509 f) i.x . T311 1 PROCEEDI NGS 2 JUDGE SMITH: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.- g 3 We' re ready to proceed. We' l l take up a few preliminary 4 matters. 5 With respect to the dispute about whether the names ; 6 of those contracting with the Applicant for-services on the 7 Massachusetts plan, the Board is going to propose to the , 8 parties for their consideration and report back this 9 arrangement. That the names of the contracting entities be ;
}
10 provided to all the parties, and for that matter, made public. : 11 However, with respect to this case, and the parties 12 in it, only the attorney for each party and one designated r () 13 representative of the party may contact those people. Any 14 contact would have to be reported, and reported back to the ; 15 Board. 16 This is a -- the next proposal in a gray area, and
- 17 enforceability might be a little bit difficult. But it would i
18 be our intention if it came to our attention, believably, that i 19 there was an effort to skew this adjudication, we would try to l t i
- 20 impose appropriate sanctions.
21 The sanctions could range from foreclosing an item of i ) 22 evidence, evidentiary presumptions, a rulinD on an inuue, and I i 23 even dismissal as a party, depending upon the circumstances. : ! 24 That's a proposal, and we' ll Dive you an opportunity 25 to consider it, and let's come back to that tomorrow. l [(2) ! I' Heritage Reporting Corporation
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{} 1 Some time during the midmorning break, we' ll take a 8510 2 little bit longer one, or our noon break, after the noon break, 3 we' ll ask the parties to return to this room and uit down 4 together and try to identify which portion of the remaining of 5 the hearing, what witnesses can bout be heard in Washington if 6, the need be. We' re not foreclosing the possibility of finding 7 another site for another week here, but we have a ~~ we want to 8 consider the feasibi)ity'of a Washington hearinDe 9 We' ll provide for that time at the noon break, but 10 we' ll net anido 15 minutes when'the parties will return here, 11 diucuss the unquence of the order of presentation of evidence l i 12 for the balance of the week, and identification of the best < t () 13 items that could be heard in Washington. l 14 Are you ready to address the motion for subpoenas for 15 NRC staff personnel, Mr. Turk? , 16 MR. TURK: I suppose I am, Your Honor. I thought wo 17 might be able to finish with Dr. Mileti first. ; l 18 JUDGE SMITH: Would you prefer to do that? t l 19 Okay, is there any other preliminary busineau before i 20 we finiuh with Dr. Miluti? l 21 MS. WEISS: Yes, Your Honor. Ellyn Weinu for the New 22 England Coalition. 23 Upon reflection of what happened in thiti room 24 yesterday, and particular reference to Mr. Flynn's requent that ! i r 25 the FEMA testimony be put off, I wanted to express the : l Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 , t e _..c_ . _ _ -,_ _ _- _ - . _ _ _ . . _ . , _
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.d 1 Coalit ion' u object ion to that, and our feeling that since we' re 2 all here and Mr. Thomas is here, that we would urge the Board 3 to hear that evidence, put that evidence on the record thic j l
4 week. l l 5 If FEMA wishes to supplement that, that's of course I 6 their right to do so, but it's our feeling that we' re entitled i 7 to have on the record FEMA's views as of this week based on all 8 the information that's available to them, and we would urge the 9 Doard to hear that; we' re ready to hear that. l 10 JUDGE SMITH: Mr. Flynn? 11 MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, at the conclusion of the last . 12 week of hearings you made the point rather clearly that the ,
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) 13 weight to be given FEMA's rebuttable test imony depended in part '
14 on the weight that FEMA gave the advice of the RAC, and we took 1G that to heart. , 16 There was a RAC meetinD. We heard the views of the j
- 17 RAC members on the issue.
! 18 Now, getting FEMA to incorporate those views into its ! 19 testimony is something like turning an ocean liner around. It l l 20 doesn' t happen an an instant. 21 What I' m auking for is the time to allow FEMA to 22 reflect on that and incorporate the views in its testimony. If f i > l 23 the testimony is heard this week, you' l l get a confused j I 24 picture. , 25 JUDGE SMITH: Do you have to go back to the RAC l HeritaDe Reporting Corporation
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f [ i 851J: 1 participants? ' 2 M R. FLYNN: No, that wasn' t my point. -I don' t feel ! 3 the need to do that. It's just that I haven' t had the ! 4 opportunity, and Mr. Thoraan hasn' t had the opportunity, to talk l i 5 to the headquarters people,-the people who make policy on a 6 national level, about the RAC rneet inD. The office -- 7 JUDGE SMITH: We' re thinking now about a 8 straightforward evidentiary presentation. 9 MR. FLYNN: About what happened? 10 JUDGE SMITH: Yeah, and enaybe the policy is sornethinD 11 that could be deferred until later. But a straightforward 12 evidentiary presentation of what the RAC corntnittee rouet ing and () 13 views were. 14 MR. FLYNN: Certainly we' d be prepared to do that, 15 you. 16 JUDGE SMITH: Dut policy, if it takes t irne, it takes 17 time, but at least the parties will have the best -- earliest 18 and best opportunity to confront the andurlyinu, or be apprised 19 of the underlying, in forraat i on. 20 Do you agree, Ms. Weiss -- 21 MS. WEISS: Yuu, I do. 22 JUDGE SMITH: -- with that neparation? 23 MS. WEISS: You, I do, Mr. Chairman, especially since 24 what I' ve just heard about the ocean liner turning around 25 suggests it raight be a long t irne before this policy issue is O Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 l I
i 8513 1 resolved, and, you know, that makes me believe even utronger . l 2 that we ought to take certainly the factual evidence this week. ! i 3 JUDGE SMITH: Yes. Well, if you can give the 4 factual presentation as early au possible, I do think it's 5 appropriate, and then the policy, well, t hat ' s -- we' ll take 6 your representation on that problem. 7 MR. FLYNN: I will do that, Your Honor. 8 JUDGE SMITH: Right. . t 9 MR. DIGNAN Could I inquire of what is contemplated? 10 Is it contemplated that the RAC will appear and testify as to 11 what went on, or what? 12 MR. FLYNN: I' m not going to call them. 13 MR. DIGNAN: You' re not going to call the RAC7 f) 14 MR. FLYNN: That was not my intention, no. ; 15 MR. DIGNAN: Well, Your Honor, why don' t we stop 16 kidding around. 17 Will the Board issue an order to get the RAC up here? i ! 18 JUDGE SMITH: No, no, no. I mean, not quite as ; i 19 readily as you would have us do it. I don' t foreclose it, but 20 I certainly don' t want to have anotner HAC meeting here in this l 21 hearing room. j 22 MR. DIGNAN: I' m not asking to have another RAC 4 i
; 23 meeting, but as I understand it the Board wants a factual !
i t ) 24 presentation as to what the RAC decided at this last meeting? { 25 JUDGE SMITH: Well, I would think an official report I 1 I
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l I l 1 l l0 l 1 of what happened at the RAC should bo oxempt from any hoarnay f 2 concerns that you mi Dht have. It will be an official report, 3 appar ently based upon the minutes of the meeting or whatevur 4 protocol they hcvu for recording it. And I just don' t sou 5 havinD uach individual RAC person -- we' ll listen to you. You 6 explain why you need it, but automatically I just don' t see 7 that it's the step to take. 8 M R. TURK: Your Honor, which RAC meeting are you 9 thinking of when you uuek the factual accounting? Thin latest 10 meeting of January 7th and Oth? 11 JUDGE SMITH: Yeu. Right, I' m not talking about your 12 having your subpoenas with the NRC people if you utill feel you () 13 will need them, or any particular item of evidence that you 14 need to present your case. But I' m j ust sayinD you don' t need 15 the RAC here to testify as to what the outcomo of their recent 16 meeting was. 17 MS. WEISS: Let me make it clear, Mr. Chairman, that 18 I' m not particularly interested about the viewn of the RAC 19 memberu. That'u Mr. D i D nan' s interest; it's not mino. 20 1 am intorunted in the FEMA direct toutimony on the 21 contentions of the parties, that factual evidence that wan 22 filed on September lith. I think we are ready, wo are 23 certainly ready to hear that. I haven' t heard any sugDestion 24 that there iu any change in that factual evidenco. 25 JUDGE SMITH: Well, what that factual evidence, O Heritage ReportinD Corporation (202) 628-4888
"9 8Si b i however, 19, in pretty rauch in the air.
2 I certainly think it in appropriate that we have an 3 explanation of what happened in the rnout recent RAC rnout ing and 4 what their advice to FEMA in today. , 5 MR. TURK: Your Honor, I have a concern about this 6 procudure. l 7 First, I think that FEMA needs tirne to conuider the 8 uubstanco of its test irnony that I certainly would not require,
; 9 as Ms. Weiss would, that they be cornpelled to put on 10 uubstantive testirnony at thin t irne.
JUDGE SMITH: 11 That's not her requent. Her requent -- . 12 MR. TURK: Well, what I heard Mn. Woins say is that 13 we had a profiled piece of tuntirnony f rorn FEMA, and she' d like 14 to get it on the record and locked in. And I think that's i 15 prernat ure if FEMA counsel han is1 ready uxpressed the need for 16 FEMA to consider its t es t irnony in light of the RAC advico. l 17 So I guenn I'rn opposing Ms. Weiss' request at this 18 t i rne. ! 19 JUDGE SMITH: I thought Ms. Weisu agreed with rne that i i l 20 she understands that it rnay t ake t irne for FFMA, to corne up with l l 21 a policy position, but there in no reauon to delay a f act ual
- 22 presentation on what happened at the RAC rnent ing.
, 23 MR. BACKUS: I would like to utate our position on } 24 thin inuue. 25 MR. TURK: Excune rne, I would like to finish roy i l i Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
i c e5m : O 1 comments so we don' t keep going roundtablo, t 2 MR. BACKUS: All rid ht. , , 3 . MR. TURK: I had heard Ms. Weiss differently, and if 4 I' m wrong, I apoloD i2e- l 5 JUDGE SMITH: Maybe we will give Ms. Weiss another 6 opportunity -- 7 MR. TURK: All right. 8 JUDGE SMITH: -- t o hel p us, but -- 9 MR. TURK: But I have a second concern, and that is, , 10 and I' m not sure what the Board requires at thin time in terms ! l 11 of an accounting from the RAC. But I did hear Mr. Flynn Dive i 12 an accounting yesterday. Of course, that was not subject to I () 13 cronn-examination. He's not appearinD an a witness. [ t 14 Dut do we really need more than that at this point to 1 i 15 understand what the RAC did before letting FEMA ge back and i i 16 consider its teutimony an a whole? j i i 17 JUDGE SMITH: I think our comments that we made at 18 the end of the last nession are still validt that in that the 19 ccDulation requires that we give a rebuttable presumption to g j 20 the RAC position, I mean to the FEMA position, and in that the ! 4 FEMA position depends very heavily upon the RAC advice, a f I 21 i 1 22 factual explanation of what that RAC advice in is certainly l
- i 23 relevant, and it can support or fail to support the rebuttable i
, i 24 presumption. [ j 25 I think it's a very important piece of information if ! j h 4 Heritage Reporting Corporation . (202) 628-4888 i i ] f
1 you regard the FEMA rebuttablo preuurnption an iraport ant , and 2 apparently everybody does. 3 MR. OLESKEY: Well, Judge, I cut tainly agree that 4 it's i roport ant . I think we all do. But to have the -- to S take t irne out for the factual presentation now if FEMA in not 6 going to follow that by presenting itu direct tent irnony putu 7 the irnportance of the rneuting in a vacuurn. 8 I think, now that I underutand the way this innue in 9 laying out in the Board's rnind and in the raind of counsel, it 10 roakes sense to have it all now, and if they can' t have it all-11 now, let'n have it when it's a pioco. 12 JUDGE SMITH: Well, is that your preference? Where 13 are we now? 14 MS. WEISS: My preference is to have Mr. Thornau get 15 up and do what he wan prepared to do, it's roy understanding. , IL And the other roernbers of the FEMA panel present the profiled 17 tentirnony which doeu not deal particularly with what individual 18 rnernberu -- doesn' t deal at all with what individual roer.1beru of 19 the RAC naid, or the advice that the adviuory corarnitten gave to 20 FEMA. It dealu with FEMA's conclusions and the banou, the 21 factual bauen, upon which FEMA reached those concluuton, 22 And of particular concern to un thiu week in the 23 factual basen for FEMA's concluutonu on the uholturing issue, 24 and that's the issue we' re here thin weuk to huar evidence on, 25 and that's what I'd like to see put on the record, what we [O Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 i
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. 8516 1 expected to happon-thin week. I don' t uso any reauen why that l
- 2 nhouldn' t happen this week. !
3 JUDGE SMITH: Wu11, the direct taut irnony that you are 4 alluding to, Mu. Weinu, in a very nutnrnary ningle paragraph, as 1
-5 1 recall, in that correct, singlo paragraph? I wish I had it .;
i 6 before rno, but it dooun' t really tell touch about the rationale 7 of the FEMA position. 8 I ' rn sure you are aware there was quite a bit of
'3 cross-exarninat ion of Mr. Thornau on what has happened in thu I I
10 RAC, and I infer frorn what Mr. Flynn hau to uay is that FEMA ; C 1- 11 has gone back to RAC and they dro revisiting their position, ( 12 and apparently revisit ing their test irnony, and they don' t now l
, t 13 yet whether they will corno back that way or not; in that ,
14 correct? l 15 MR. FLYNN: Yes, Your Honor. , 16 JUDGE SMITH: So I think it would be rather pointless ' i 17 to have Mr. Thornas Dive t est irnony concerninD what rni Dh t have . 18 been, or what existed uorae other t irne, although that's f f 19 appropriat e crous-exarninat ion. I'in not saying that that should ' l 20 not be explored with hirn if you wish. l 21 Dut nince FEMA in under their charter frorn tht+ ! 22 Pronidunt and under the regulation taking a new look at the RAC f 23 advice, and you want that in evidence, I see no point in having ; r l 24 Mr. Thornas here present a potuntially stale piece of evidence. [ l I g 25 MS. WEISS: Well, what I heard Mr. Flynn say } i O ! l 3 Heritage Reporting Corporation I (202) 628-4888 ; L p-+= ,.-wy. , - - - - - -- --
8519 j 1 yesterday, and perhaps I heard incorrectly, and perhaps he was 2 talking more precisely than I was listeninD, was that FEMA, the l 3 FEMA representativou on the RAC, as well au the several other 4 representatives on the RAC, were utill of the view that the 5 finding, or the FEMA views that had been presented and 6 contained in the pr efiled testimony remained valid, and that 7 there might be uomo review of the uhulturing study, the Stone.& 8 Webuter uheltering study, but that FEMA hadn' t chanDud its 9 views on that inuun. 10 JUDGE SMITH: The FEMA representative to RAC. 11 MS. WEISS: Or Mr. Thomau, yeah, and two of the other 12 rausabern of the RAC. That'n what I heard. 13 JUDGE SMITH: What did we hear?
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14 MR. FLYNN: Ms. Weinn heard rne correctly. 15 But you havo to remember that un are a bureautt'acy, 16 and there are other people to be heard f rota yet. 17 JUDGE SMITH: Mr. Thoman in not authorized to 18 forraulat e the rubut table presumption. 19 MR. FLYNN: Not all by himuulf, no. 20 JUDGE SMITH: Right. He's taken the position the RAC 21 ceramit ten now, tne policyrnakers of FEMA have to decide what to 22 do about the whole set of infortnation that you have. 23 MR. FLYNN: You. 24 JUDGE SMITH: So now, what is the wauh of the 26 parties? [O I Heritage ReportinD Corporation (202) 628-4888
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1 The neatness v:uld have it all at once, but you' ve 2 asked for the earliest rocr.ible exploration of the evidence. 3 It's r suible to have a portion of it presented promptly, and 4 we taka Mr. Flynn at his word that-the policy aspectu of its 5 the formal FEMA position cannot be prouented immediately. 6 So what' n your wish: 7 MR. DIGNAN: Your Honor, if I can act my word in 8 here, I would point out that this is one of the things that 9 concerned Me yesterday. 10 If I' m hearing a brother Flynn correctly, even if, 11 annuming you ordered, or we asked, or he decided, to put the 12 so-called factual presentation i n, Mr. Flynn is not going to be ([ 13 in a position today or indeed thin week to put in testimony , is that would amount to the FEMA position on thin issue. 15 An I' ve indiceted to you, the Applicantu$ shelter 16 panel, which is sitting there, is a piece of testimony that wan 17 crafted, to the best of our ability, to respond to the position l 13 that's on file now. That shelter panel's tuntimony, as a 19 result, could become stale if the FEMA final, I' ll call it 20 policy position, because that's what we' ve been doing, chanDes. 21 What 15m seeing, therefore, in not only in there a 22 risk if we pursue this line that Ms. Weiss is uuggesting, that 23 you will get a stale piece from Mr. Thomas, you might uit i 24 through a long cross-examination of a utale piece of evidence , 25 from us. O Heritage Reporting Corporation (209) 628-4888 e
7] li._J - 852 L-1 And that being the case, could I make a proposal? 2 We' re here this week, we have a number of-things on 3 our piate other than the shelter testimony. We have to finish 4 the piece that's going on now of Dr. Mileti. 5 There's a piece that has been filed by Mr. Backus, 6 sponsored by Ms. Fallon, et al.. I indicated to Mr. Backus last 7 night that I would be prepared to cross-examine that piece 8 today. 9 I don' t know, Bob, are they -- 10 MR. BACKUS: They are here, and they will be ready. 11 MR, DIGNAN: There's the mot icn for subpoenas 12 argument which will peobably consume some time, I understand. 13 There is a piece that we have filed, a very short 14 1 piece of rebuttal that we have filed by Mr. Lieberman. I don' t 15 know if the Commonwealth could be prepared to cross-examine 16 that this week. I would think they could. It's only two and a 17 half pages, but J- leave it up to them. 18 The Commonwealth may wish to go right ahead with the 19 Goble's panel. We' re prepared to cross-examine that panel thin 20 week. 21 There is the DaDoulis piece that has to be picked up. 22 I guess he's going to be available tomorrow; in that right, 23 Bob? 24 MR. BACKUS: Wednesday, firsi thing. 25 MR. DIGNAN: Yeah. There is the notification and 7"T C I
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O 1 communicat ions test imony which we' re ' revising in' light of the 2 stipulation, but we hope to be in shape to give you tomorrow or 3 the next day. 4 There is the piece by Earl- that's been filed by the 5 NECNP, which we would be prepared to take a position on this 6 week. 7 In addition, there is some discussion, as 1 8 understand it, contemplated on the planning with respect to the 9 Massachusetts matter, and probably some time at least for 10 counsel to resolve their views of the proposal the Board has 11 made on that preliminary issue with resoect to that. 12 It seems to me that whether it would be a full week () 13 ,or not, we can spend some productive time these next few days i l, on all of those matters. 15 And what also is hanging out in the woodwork is the 16 fact that, an I understand it, there is some additional 17 rebuttal testimony, perhaps from us, too, on various subjects 18 Other than sheltering that is contemplated. 19 And I was wondering if the way to Do here, listening 20 to everything, is to do what we can with these nine items I 21 listed; maybe hopefully wrapping them up this week whennver we 22 finish; take a hiatus at that point. And the hiatuu I would 23 propose would be a three-week hiatus during which the following 24 would happen. I 25 If we utart the hiatus as of February 15th, this Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 y - - -- -- , . - - - ---% ,w y
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1 Friday. Excuse me, January 15th, this. Friday. By the 22nd, 2 hopefully, FEMA could make known its final position au such, 3 and file it. 4 I would commit, if that was so, the following 5 Wednesday, the 27th, to make known the Applicantn' position, 6 either by possibly withdrawing shelter altogether, cutting it 7 down, "etailoring it, and filing it and so forth. 8 The Mass AG, as the other party wi.th a heavy stake in o 9 . thin, should have, I would assume, until the 3rd of February, h 10 and by that time I would expect them to be able to take a 11 pouition on shelter.
.C I should back u p. It seems to me at the same time 13 that FEMA letu its position be known, to wit, a week from 14 Friday, everybody whould have their rebuttal in on all other ,
15 nub.jects of interent. In other words, that should be in and 16 prefiled and ready to go. 17 If the Attorney General was willing to undertake by i 18 the 3rd of February to pin down their shelter position in e ! 19 addition to the Goble testimony, or instead of, or whatever, ! 20 then we could have that package ready on the 3rd, resume l 21 hearing on the 8th, which would be three weeks from that 16th, l 22 either in Washington or here, and view that week as a week in l 23 whic h we' re going to take care of the shelter issue, clean up l l 24 all the rebuttal and end the hearing. l l 25 Now, three weeks may nound long to the Board, but the l Heritage Raporting Cor,coration (202) 628-4888
3 852r (V 1 reason I get the three weeks is simply if you shorten it'any 2 more than that, you' re going to put somebody at a disadvantage 3 in terms of renponding to the FEMA position. Because, for 4 example, I would assume that Massachusetts feels if the FEMA 5 position changes in any way, and as a result I change my l 6 testimony, they may feel that they may want to respond not just 7 to FEMA, but respond to me, and that's why I' m putt ing t hem as 8 coming in after me. 9 Not yet heard from is the Staff. The Staff may have 10 an oar in here as to when they want to play in that thing. But 11 I think some approach like that will, while it may result in 12 some dead time this week, and I acknowledge that, will at least 13 accomnodate everybody, and at least, I think, get us in a 14 position where on the week of the 8th we' ll have all the 15 rebuttal and all the other innues i n, we' ll have the shelter 16 thing nailed down final, a final FEMA ponition, and hopefully 17 be able to clean this hearing u, . 18 You know, usually applicants are pressing a hearing 19 tomorrow, a hearing tocorrow, but I've thought thin thing 20 through. I don' t see getting it done any shorter than that 21 even if we try to take a piece of it today, and a piece of it 22 now, and I think we' re going to have a more confused record. 23 Because as sure as I sit here, if that FEMA position changen in 24 any substantive way, any crosu you 1isten to of my panel is l 25 probably going to have been listening to a ntale piece of t (
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i -1 1 l ! I t l l l -- l 8525 l 1 direct being given a stale cronn, because that piece that's in i 2 there was tailored to the present FEMA. position, and to nothing
~
3 else. I i E311 4 (Continued on next page.)- , 5 j 6 [ , . 7 \ 4 8 h 9 10 11 i 12
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u I 14 l 15 l l 16 i l l l 17 I I l l l 18 t . 19 - r 1 20 l l ; 21 ; I l 22 l l !' 23 l 24 , l 25 l [G
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T~i 8526 L-] 1 ' JUDGE SMITH: What scenario do you believe would , 2 render that tes mony irrelevant? 3 Let's say that FEMA changes its position. 4 MR. DIGNAN: And ca;.ie in with a~ position that says, 5 the thinD is in conformity with the Bores letter of June 4th, 6 then I would seriously consider not even presenting the 7- sheltering -- 8 JUDGE SMITH: But then your adversaries in the 9 proceeding wish to attack that position and you wish to attack 10 the attack of it? 11 MR. DIGNAN: Well, if that occurs, I will commit on 12 that schedule to putting in whatever rebuttal I may want to put _( 13 into their piece, which -- 14 JUDGE SMITH: Which could be a part o f t h i s -- i 15 MR. DIGNAN: Could be a piece of that, could be some 16 other approach, depending upon how they attack. l 17 But the problem i s, without the FEMA position -- see, l l 18 because the FEMA occupies this rebuttable presumption status, 19 until you know that, as a matter of just tactics and strateDys l 20 nothing deeo about this, it is very difficult to formulate l 21 exactly how you want to try the case up. l 22 JUDGE SMITH: Okay. 23 MR. DIGNAN: And until that -- and I, you know, I' m l i 24 sure Mr. Flynn is correct when he tells me he needs that kind l 25 of time to Det the FEMA policy position for lack of a better - l l Heritage Reporting Corporation l (202) 628-4888 l l
(3 .7 8527
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i put together, and that's the one that becomes the focus of 2 everybody's attention every time. 3 MR. BACKUS: Mr. Chairman? 1 4 JUDGE SMITH What do you think about the schedule as 5 far as FEMA is concerned? 6 MR. FLYNN: I agree.that what Mr. Di Dnan.has proposed 7 is quite reasonable. 8 JUDGE SMITH: Do you think you could commit FEMA to 9 have a policy position by the 22nd? 10 MR. FLYNN: Yes. 11 JUDGE SMITH: Mr. Backus? 12 MR. BACKl'd : Could we have an opportunity, perhaps, () 13 to have maybe a orief break so we can confer? We have not 14 heard this proposal. 15 I think we all recounize that FEMA has a very centeal 16 role in this proceeding, and apparently we now have some doubt 17 about . FEMA's position. We had an Appeal Board decision on 18 having hearings without the FEMA pouition before thin hearing 19 started, it looks like we are almost back there again. 20 And I just wonder if the Intervenors could confer 21 before we respond? 22 MS. WEIGS: There's a lot more to this proposal than 23 the schedule, a lot of implications to thiu that we would like 24 to discuss, and by ourselves. 25 JUDGE SMITH: All right. Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 l
p 852a 1/ 1 Well, we don' t have to do it now. Well, you want to 2 do it now? Since it's fresh. What do yoa want, 15 minutes? 3 MR. BACKUG I should think that would be fine. 4 (Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.) 5 JUDGE SMITH: Who's going to report? Are you going 6 to report? 7 MR. OLESKEY: I will, Your Honor. 8 I think we would suggest leaving the issue of the 9 scheduling for the balance of the week until after the lunch 10 break, because we were only able to deal adequately in our 11 break just now with the question of the FEMA testimony and what 12 flows f *ct.1 that. 13 So let me address that. It's the Intervenor's view
)E l
14 that we would like to have FEMA, presumably Mr. Thomas, an we , 1 15 understand it, give its factual report this week on the 16 developments at the recent RAC meeting -- whatever they were, 17 whatever wan said and considered, and whatever information went 18 before that group of people. 19 JUDGE SMITH: This would be nomewhat a blend of 20 tentimony and discovery? i 21 MR. OLESKEY: I think it would, yes. i 22 But it seemed to uu, in view of what I' m about to say i l
- 23 and what has already been said before the break about the l
24 possible changen in tuntimony -- the domino, if you will, that i ! 25 would fall if this ocean liner heads back into port after we Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
8529 1 thought it was safely on the high seas -- that it'd be 2 important now, at'least, for everybody to know what all of 3 these persons thought and said last week in' Washington. 4 We also thimk it' d be appropriate, even if.the 5 position that the agency takes is going to change in the next 6 couple of weeks, that that paraDraph or so that is the profiled 7 testimony go in by stipulation now as the testimony that FEMA 8 was prepared to give as of January 6, '88, so we have a record 9 of the RAC process building from the prior voir dire and 10 anything that we now do with Mr. Thomas. And we know what FEMA 11 was prepared to do prior to that RAC meeting because they filed 12 it, we have all seen it, and it would now be in evidence. () 13 If they want to supplement it, and in effect change 14 it, or qualify it in any wav because of developments after the 15 6th of January, given the RAC and whatever internal processes 16 they have, they can do that. 17 But this Board this week would have a record of where 18 t hey' ve been to this point and what the parties are entitled to { 19 understand as a matter of record evidence in the position of 20 the agency to this date. l 21 Now, if FEMA, on the 22nd, which i s, I think, the - 22 date Mr. Dignan proposed and Mr. Flynn agreed t o, comes in and 23 says, we have thought about the situation in the interveninD-24 period and we wish to reaf firm the agency's prior position, 25 then I think that the schedule that Mr. Dignan suggested O Heritage Reporting Corporation
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l 8530 1 thereafter in one that'u rational and reasonable to the 2 Intervenors. I 3 As I understand it, clearly no rebuttal t est irnony on 4 sheltering, as with any other issue, however, would be due to i 5 be filed until after the sheltering cross-examination of FEMA 6 and the respective panels han concluded. 7 With that qualification I think that Mr. Di gnan' s 8 outline of the timing is nomething that the Intervenors could 9 handle. However, if the FEMA position changes and they come in 10 and withdraw their prior position and say in uubstance. with 11 respect to sheltering, they now find the plan to be adequate, 12 the Intervenors feel clearly that that's a very different 13 vituation. 14 We have in mind a number of considerations there. 15 One of them is that the Applicants had frorn uomething like the d - 16 6th of June until the middle of Septernber to do whatever they 17 wanted to do in addressing the original FEMA position. So they 18 had nomething over 90 days to draw together their own forces, 19 get their own presentation together, and file tentimony. 20 If the FEMA position which, as the Board has pointed 21 out in its view, the process remains so irnport a nt and a 22 rebuttable presumpt ion rerna ins before un all, we would want and 23 expect essent ially the narne 90 dayu, because we' d want to do 24 sorne things that we didn' t do to this point. 25 We would want to take discovery of RAC rnembern, and Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 ) l l l
' /~'i 853: (_/ 1 we' d want to take discovery of thosu FEMA policy raakeru. We 2 can' t conceive of what it is, frankly, between now and the 22nd 3 of January that would cause FEMA to change its ponition, 4 because the RAC hasn' t - considered, as we understand it, any now 5 inforraat ion ; there are no new facts that have best before it.
- Au the materials that Mr. Turk released just before 7 Christmas indicate, the positionn that Mr. Flynn indicated the 8 RAC members apparently took last week are positions in 9 discussion, if not in vote, that these various members of these 10 agencies have taken all along since June.
11 So that if there in a change in the FEMA position in 12 the next coagle of weeks, we think it would have to be because [ 13 there' u been pressure brought on the FEMA hierarchy at the 14 policy level to change a view; a view that would't be what the 15 Regional Office han been advocating all along, or two other 16 mernbers of the RAC apparently, but which relaten to other 17 factors. 18 So we' d want to explore that completely, and we think 19 that the 90 days would be a reasonable period given that the 20 Applicant had that time originally to develop its own position. 21 At the end of that period we would file our own 22 direct testimony; the hearings would resume and finish on that 23 basis, except that, in accordance with the process that we have 24 been followin9 Generally, nnybody could file rebuttal testimony 25 on sheltering at the cone'. union of the presentation, the direct (~)%
\_
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
n 853a - {'} 1 presentation by the Applicants and by FEMA that would take 2 place at the end of that 90. days. 3 Now, let me ask my colleaguen if I' ve omitted 4 anything material from that summary of our joint position? 5 JUDGE SMITH: After all of which then for the first 6 time we would begin scheduling the Mausachusettu version of.the 7 plan. 8 MR. OLESKEY: Frankly, that's something that we 9 didn' t addrens in that discussion. That is something that my 10 colleagues and I would have to address independently, and I 11 would be happy to do that. We know you want to discuss that 12 and we want to discuss that an well. y 4_j$ 13 JUDGE SMITH: I' m uure you want to be heard, Mr. 14 Dignan. I just wonder -- 15 MR. DIGNAN: I do. 16 JUDGE SMITH: -- if -- 17 MR. DIGNAN: This in the time. 18 JUDGE SMITH: -- Mr. Turk or Mr. Etisbee wishes to be 19 heard? 20 Do you wish to be heard? 21 MR. TURK: Yes, I do. 22 I guess I would respond to a few of the remarku Mr. 23 Oleskey made in saying that first I certainly oppose the idea 24 of putting in FEMA's position an it has been expressed until 25 now in the profiled testimony, by utipulation or otherwine. 77 d Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
(') V 653 , 1 Testimony is something that in uworn to, and we all 2 know what the profiling was. There's no quest ion about that. 3 We may not understand fully what it meant. That's something 4 that can always be raised in cross-examination of whatever 5 testimony FEMA ultimately does put into the record. 6 JUDGE SMITH: I think the question of the FEMA 7 testimony an it was presented in advance can be handled 8 mechanically quite simple to address everyone's needs and 9 concerns. It can either be an exhibit or whatever. I mean I ' 10 don' t think we have to -- we can work out the details on thct. 11 MR. TURK: Fine. 12 JUDGE SMITH: I aDree with you it could r.o t be sworn () 13 tentimony if it is no longer the belief of the person, yes. 14 MR. TURK: If FEMA's position changen, frankly the 15 prior version is something that could be raised by way of 16 cross-examination. 17 JUDGE SMITH: I think we could figure out a way to 18 meet everyone' n needu on that. 19 MR. TURK: All right, and I would also differ, at 20 least based on my interpretation of past eventu, from Mr. 21 Olenkey's annumpt ion that this was the FEMA position an of , 22 January 6, 1988. 23 It has been my understanding that there had been 24 discussionn for a long period within FEMA, and I don' t know 25 that thin was a determined FEMA position. You' d have to ank O Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
8539
"~ )
i Mr. Flynn or FEMA witnesses on the stand what the firm position 2 has been over time. 3 But I don' t know that Mr. Oleskey's characterizat ion, 4 and I not only don' t know, but I be?.ieve it's incorrect that 5 this was a firm FEMA position as of January 6th. 6 With respect to the question of scheduling, I 7 perceive that Mr. Oleskey's request to have some discovery is 8 not unreasonable. I don' t know that he needs that before he 9 can file his own testimony. We all know that the Massachusetts 10 fo tor nay General's of fice, and Intervonors have contended for a 11 long time, throuDh the initia) annection of contentions until 12 now, that the plans are inadequate witn respect to cur 7h 7~$j 4 13 populations. h 14 The reasons for their being adequate (sic) as the 15 Intervenors perceive those reasons presumably have not changed 16 no matter what FEMA says. Now, there may be a need for the , j 17 Intervenors to tailor their testimony somewhat. For snutance, 1 l 18 the Goble testimony relion upon prior expressions in the FEMA i 19 testimony or response to interroDatories to support their own l
?O view.
21 Well, even if FEMA does not advance those viewn in I ! 22 the future, the witnesses that the Intervenors have put forward i l 23 to -- have put forward are essentially adopting those ! 24 statements au their own. So regardless of whether FEMA utill l 25 adheren to those statements, if those witnesses believe those I n vb N. ( Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
l l I 853b l i statements to be.true, then they can nwear to them nonetheless, l 2 regardless of what FEMA may say in the future. k 3 And I don' t know what that's going to be any more 4 than the Applicants or the Ir.tervenors do. 5 .With respect to the request for a 90-day period for l 5 discovery and submission of testimony, that's a refrain that we 1 7 hear whenever an opportunity in requested for additional' time. ; j 8 We don' t Det the lower end or more compressed or even what I f 9 perceive t'o be a reasonable amount of time requented.- We are 10 faced always with the same 90-day request. 11 And I think that 's simply unreasonable. I don' t know 12 why they need 90 dayr, I think the memos which I released in () 13 December relating to what happened at prior RAC meetings, and 14 the history of the beach shelter issue, provide lots of fertile 15 ground for the Intervenorn to explore. , 16 Attached to thoue memos they have the names of RAC 17 members. They are able to obtain fairly readily the namen of 18 FEMA officiels, and assuming that they can prevail in their 19 tequest for discovery against those persona, they can start 20 without much delay in going after the information they think in 21 necausary for their case. 22 I' m not going to come up with an alternate proposal. 23 I don' t see why 90 days is necusuary. I think 30 days for 24 discovery, if any discovery at all is necessary and is ordered 25 by the Board, certainly is much more reasonable and may even be O Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 )
TT 853L U 1 more than necessary. 2 JUDGE SMITH: Mr. Disbee?
.3 MR. BISBEE: Thank you, Your Honor.
4 To mix a couple of metaphors that have been used this 5 morning, the State of New Hampshire doesn' t have an oar in on 6 this issue dealing with the ocean liner. 7 JUDGE SMITH: Mr. Dignan? 8 MR. DIGNAN: I share Mr. Turk's concern, and 1 9 understand the Board's view is that, as far as I' m concerned, 10 the FEMA present position is not going to become by my 11 stipulation either an exhibit or testimony unlanu I cross-12 examine the author on it extensively. hI-) 13 Therefore, I nave no problem with it goinD into a 14 rejected exhibit file or something like that to give a record 15 of what took place. That is -- 16 JUDGE SMITH: Or an exhibit that they, in fact, had 17 offered that testimony. 18 MR. DIGNAN: They never offered it, Your Honori they 19 haven' t yet. They profiled it. Until it 's of fered, that is 20 not true. 21 And maybe if he was going to offer it, in which case 22 they are going to offer it and I am going to cross it. But I 23 am not going to agree to stipulate that into any evidentiary 24 status. I have no problem with the Board placing it in the 25 rejected exhibit file, no that there will be a record on appeal 7~'\ U Heritage ReportinD Corporation (202) 628-4888 I i
l r l 8537 l g/ 1 for whatever reason somebody wants of that having once been a 2 piece of testimony that FEMA prefiled, but they haven' t offered 3 it yet. 4 JUDGE SMITH: The Intervenors are seeking record 5 support for the position that at one time FEMA believed what it 6 said in that paragraph, whatever it meant by it, but they want 7 some evidentiary record. 8 That would certainly be relevant to the FEMA 9 position. I mean previouuly held -- 10 MR. DIGNON: No -~ t hat ' s what- Mr. Turk pointed out. 11 If FEMA changen its position, then what you do on crons-12 exarninat ion of the FEMA witness on the changed position, you 13 show them that docurnent and you cay, wasn' t that once the 14 agency's posit ion? 15 And he' nays, yes or no. Then they' ve got the record 16 nupport for that. But the -- 17 JUDGE SMITH: Yes, right, well, au I say, there are 18 many wayu in which it can be accornplished. 19 MR. D GNAN: Yes, I say, and all 1
- rn indicatinD to 20 the Board in that, while I am not going to -- you know, the 21 Board wants to in a rejected exhibit file in order to get it in 22 the record for future review, I have no problern with that.
23 But I, at least, one party, will not stipulate to it , 24 being given any evidentiary utatuu at all, unlenn I get the 25 author on the utand for extensive croun-examination with C:) { Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 l l l
s 8533 {. : N 1 respect to it. 2 The second thing I -- Mr. Turk is more generous than
. .s 3 I would be in discovery. All of a sudden it seems to me we 4 don' t cross-examine anybody, we run discovery. If the FEMA 5 position chan~ges, you can cross-examine and' presumably out of
,6 the cross-examination and/or some parallel discovery requests 7 you can find out if it has been insinuated that the FEMA 8 position is a result of pressure.
9 That's easy. It doesn' t take 90 days to do. It's not 10 something that has to be done in discovery; it can be done on 11 cross-examination by any cross-examiner. 12 1 -- obviously it's going to be a Board discretion fy 13 rnatter as to whether additional time for discovery, and 4_J 14 whatever the Board decides in its discretion, I' m not going tc 15 argue with. 16 JUDGE SMITH: What would you do with the situation 17 that they are concerned about, and that is, contrary to the 18 views of their regional office, and contrary to their views of 19 their representative on the RAC, FEMA takes a different 20 position without explanation? 21 Would they, in your view, be entitled to some 22 discovery to explore how that came about? 23 MR. DIGNAN: Your Honor, in my view, no. But I fully 24 understand the Board might have a different view and let it be 25 done by discovery. L_) Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
/") 8539 (J
1 You know, when I started out in Superior Court,. When 2 a witness .took a position you didn' t expect, your job was to 3 cross-examine and see if you could break it down. 4 Now, if the Board decides better procedure for the 5 facility of the hearing is a reasonable discovery period in 6 that, you' re not going to hear any larDe squawk from the 7 Applicant. I do think 90 days is a bit much. 8 JUDGE SMITH: Okay, but the fact of some exploration 9 of how the position became changed. I' m also concerned about 10 how one might discover that? 11 You know, Just -- 12 MR. DIGNAN: I don' t th! ** you can. () 13 JUDGE SMITH That is a problem which you haven t 14 s.ddressed yet. I understa nd you haven' t addressed that? 15 MR. OLESKEY: That's true and I think we would say, 16 since if we are riuht no facts have changed since June 6th, 17 that any change in the FEMA stated position here would be a 18 policy change. 19 Therefore, we would need to explore the policy-makinD 20 process within FEMA to see how they got on Fact X to a position i 21 in June which they held, I believe, Mr. Turk, until at least 22 January 6th, if not until today. 23 And then, utill on Fact X, they' ve changed that 24 position between the 8th of January and the 22nd of January. 25 And I think that would be very important for this board to t i' Heritage Reporting Corporation < (202) 628-4888
7, 8540
! ) ~s i understand in weighing that t est i rnony.
2 So -- 3 JUDGE SMITH: If -- would it make sense to begin 4 with, to begin with Mr. Thomas or someone from FEMA Regional 5 Office, Mr. Thomas, I assume, to Dive us a factual explanation 6 of what happened in the RAC comrait t ee, no that we can determine 7 if such be the case that there has been or has not been any 8 change in any factual data, technological considerations, that 9 it's been a chanDe in whatever. 10 Then we might have a better feeling for what 11 additional discovery would be required. If there has been no 12 new technoic7ical data, no new facts established during 1987, p. 13 then the need for discovery, it seems to me, would be not 14 perhaps eliminated, but the scope of it certainly would be 15 reduced. 16 Would that make sense to at least begin to have on 17 the record what considerationu took place at the RAC meeting, 18 so at least we can identify whether or not there have been any 19 technical bases for any change in positions? 20 MR. OLESKEY: Yes, that would be a very good way to 21 begin. 22 MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, I think I can shed some 1ight 23 on what has gone on and perhaps aid you in the decision that 24 you need to make. 25 In fact, there has not been any new technical V) l-l Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
(~) 854: (m/ 1 information which has caused un to reexamine our earlier 2 pos i t i or,. The facts that we are looking at now are the same 3 facts that we' ve been looking at all along. 4 What in driving the reexamination of our position is 5 principally a question of the interpretation of our 6 regulations, particularly as they relate to the NRC's 7 regulations and interpretation of the requirements of the 8 guidance expressed in NUREG-0654. 9 And if our ponition does change, and I am not saying 10 that it will or it won' t , it will be for that reason, that ! 11 we' ve refined our thinking on what the rugulations and the 12 guidance mean. (r'j\ 13 (Continued on the next page.) ! 14 15 16 l i 17 1 l 18 1
- 19 1
20 21 l l 22 l-l 23 i 24 e 25 (:) Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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8542 T313 .1 Let me identify what I think the issues are, and
? what I see the iunuou as, and, again, maybe that will help you 3 and the part ies come to some resolut ion.
4 The factual issues are what uheltering in available, 5 how many people can be sheltered, where are the shelters, what G level of protection do those sheltern offer. t 7 The policy issues are what is required by a range of 8 protective actions with the phrase in NUREG-0654 that says
- 9 there should be a range of protective actions. In sheltering -
l 10 - is evacuation without explicit provision for sheltering a 11 ranDe? That' n one of the questions that we' re looking at. 12 Another question that we' re looking at in when FEMA (f 13 makes a determination of reasonable annurance, or lack of. i ! 14 reasonable assurance, should we confine ouruelves to tooking at I 15 uimply whether the requirements of NUREG-0654 have been
- 16 satinfied, or is there a larger question there; namely, the 17 qualitative judgment or the subjective judgment about 1
18 reanonable annurance that adequate protective measuren can be 19 taken to protect the public. Is that a larger question than 20 Just, have the elements in NUREG-0654 been natisfied? ! 21 Another issue in whether best efforts is the 22 appropriate ntandard to apply. That'n really another aspect of 23 the question that I just mentioned. i 24 One way of expreuning that is a plan in acceptable so 25 long as it provides some doue navinDul that i n, compared to () Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 L
l 8543 T] 11 1 having no plan, there are dose savings, and that the plan takes
! 2 maximum advantage of every readily nvailable opportunity for 3 dose savings, and the plan can be irap l ement ed. If those three 4 conditions are met, the best efforts utandard is satisfied.
5 So the question -~ 6 JUDGE SMITH: Are you announcing now an issue, or are 7 you announcing a position? , 8 MR. FLYNN: An issue. We haven' t decided yet where 9 we stand on this. , 10 JUDGE SMITH: Okay. 11 MR. FLYNN: And that's my point. That's the thinking 12 process that we' re going through. 13 And the other thing that I -- I want to respond to
. n).
14 the suggestion that pressure is being put on FEMA from outside 15 sources to change its position. The pressure to reexamine this 16 is coming from within FEMA, and frankly, some of it is coming 17 from me. I have been pushing the policymakers in FEMA to 18 clarify their thinking on these issues, and that is what is 19 going on. 20 And I don' t even want to get into a question of where 21 people imagine the pressure might be coming from, but it's not 22 my perception that that is what in happening. 23 Now, I want to go on to a couple of other subjects. 24 I agree with Mr. Turk and Mr. Dignan on the question of
' 25 allowing the proposed testimony on the beach population issue
[U-Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 l
654L LJ 1 and the sheltering issues to come in without any explanation. 2 If it cornen in in a vacuum, it doesn' t tell anybody very much, 3 and it's simply a record that at one time FEMA wau willing to 4 say -- 5 JUDGE SMITH: All right, this in the point really G that I' rn having dif ficulty understanding. 7 It seems t o rne no matter which way FEMA goes sornebody 8 is going to argue that sheltering in the beach is or is not as 9 stated. You know, it's going to be poor or good. And there is 10 going to remain factual issues which have already been 11 identified and subraitted written testimony, no raatter what t l 12 happens. () 13 MR. FLYNN: Yes. 14 JUDGE SMITH: The Goble panel testimony will still be 15 relevant no matter what happens. 16 I don' t really understand, well, without having
- 17 looked at your testimony, Mr. Dignan, in the context of these 1
18 developrnents, what portions would not be relevant. I mean, if 19 FEMA changes its position, you may call part of it rebuttal, 20 you may not, but still it neerns t o rne that there is no 21 i rnped i ment to us going ahead, or no reason to delay taking the 22 factual -- the test irnony on factual issues. 23 MR. DIGNAN: If those be factual issues. 24 JUDGE SMITH: How can they avoid being factual l l 25 issues? Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
8545 M Lj 1 MR. DIGNAN: Oh, sorne of them can definitely cease 2 being factual issues, depending upon the FEMA position finally. 3 JUDGE SMITH: Explain that. Track it through. How 4 wouAd this, work? 5' MR. DIGNAN: Let us assume that FEMA's final position 6 was as follows: 7 FEMA gets ups and stands up there and says, we find 8 the plan as it stands, without anything further, adequate, and 9 sorne beach sheltering. We all understand that's all we' re 10 talking about, and they rnay have 'ther views on other aspects 11 of the plan. 12 At that point that's the rebuttable presurn pt i on, and They say that the
) 13 they explain it, they lay it out.
14 sheltering, in our judgment, they rni ght reach a conclusion that 15 says, we don' t think you can shelter at this situ, period, 16 that's it. We don' t think you can do it, and therefore FEMA's 17 position is the plan as it stands is adequate, because that's 18 the best that can be done. 19 What relevance has all that shelter study got to 20 anything at that point? Th at ' s point one. 21 Point two, FEMA cornes in with a posit ion ': hat's 22 sornewh ere in between, and sorne of it rnay favor the position 23 I' ve got, some of it rnay not , and I would then want to be 24 tarDeting the test irnony not so rauch a general discuitsion of 25 shelter, which is what this piece is now in large part, but I D Heritage ReportinD Corporation (202) 628-4888
8546
. %.p) 1 may want it to be targeted at those aspects of the FEMA 2 position.which we feel are erroneous and that'should be
.3 rejected by the Board.
4 And I' m not saying that the panel that is sitting 5 here and the testimony that's been prefiled will definitely 6 become irrelevant if FEMA makes any change in position, or a 7 complete change in position. 8 , I will say that you' re going to sit through, I bet, .a i 9 lo'ng cross-examination that may turn to have been of stale
~
10 testimony, and I see very little -- and, frankly, as a tactical 11 matter, Your Honor, I too would just as soon not commit my ' i 12 witnesses until I know what FEMA's position is. And I would be () 13 kidding you, and I, frankly, would be remiss in my duties to my 14 client if I did otherwise as a tectical matter. 15 MR. OLESKEY: You see, Judge, I think where we might
+
16 be is this. 17 If FEMA says we' ve examined all these legal issues 4 18 and now, applying a different interpretation of the guidance 19 and th2 regulations and our own internal process to the same I 20 facts, we think, as Mr. Dignan has just said, that there can' t . 21 be effective sheltering there but that's okay. 22 And our testimony, which relies on FEMA's January 6th 23 position, would have to be chanDed because we could no lonDer I ( 24 rely on it, and in fact we' d have to attack their position to ; 4 ! 25 rebut the presumption. ; I Heritage Reporting Corporation o (202) 628-4888 4
i l I 8547 1 Mr. Dignan, presumably, is going to withdraw, as hu 2 said, any testimony, because he' d be taking the position that's 3 one-half of the two horses he's always ridden in this case in 4 sheltering, which in that's right, there isn' t good sheltering 5 there, but it's okay. My best efforts are to get people out of 6 there fast. There won' t be any major problems that require 7 sheltering. FEMA is right. So I don' t file anything. I rest, 8 as he said yesterday, on the rebuttable presumption. 9 So where we then are is he has no testimony, and we 10 have test', mony that addresses the wrong target. So we have to 11 retailor our testimony and only to address a different legal 12 standard, but more importantly, to address different facts as 13 FEMA now interprets those facts. That's why we get into a 14 very different situation both for the Applicant and for 15 ourselves. 16 MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, a couple more points that I 17 want to make. 18 With what we know now, I con' t foresee that FEMA in 19 going to say there is no offective way to sheltur people. That 20 may be the case but, first of all, it's not FEMA's role to make 21 that case. If the Gtate of New Hampshire wantu to, or the 22 Applicant in connection with the State of New Hampshire wants 23 to make that case to us, we will listen to that. We' re not 24 going to write the plan for the State of New Hampshire. 25 That's why I identified a few moments ago that one of Y\ L./ Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
d 8546 i i the issues.in what is the inventory of existing shelter, and 2 what leve','of protection can it offer. _You know, not that i 3 there's any mi. Amum that has to be satisfied, but that's one of 4 the things that we need to know. 5 JUDGE SMITH
- You' re saying -that as an issue.
6 MR. FLYNN: That 's r.n issue. 7 JUDGE SMITH: Not as a position. 8 MR. FLYNN: Right, ri D h t. And I would tend to agree , 9 with what you suggested earlier that whatever ultimately 10 happens, the testimony is relavant. 11 JUDGE SMITH: The factual aspects of it, t 12 MR. FLYNN: The factual aspects, ri Dht. , () 13 JUDG' SMITH: It may not come in through the FEMA 14 gateway necessarily. I mean, the tendency of the parties now 15 is to argue everything as in support of or against a FEMP r 16 position. You can call it that anyway you want t o, put it ! 17 through the gateway of what FEMA does if you wish, but in the 18 last analysis the factual evidence in Doing to be relevant to 19 our decision no matter what FEMA does. 20 MR. FLYNN: Well, yes. 21 JUDGE SMITH: Even if we agree with Mr. Dignan that 22 the Massachusetts Attorney General is not foreclosed from j 23 making their case on this theory that they wish to make it, and-r 24 that i s, FEMA is wrong it FEMA comes up with a position that no 25 sheltering -- that sheltering is necessary because a range of 1 i i Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 1
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f 8549 1 protect ive actions are necessary and you don' t have it, they 2 have a right to make that case unless we should rule as a 3 matter of law before then that - they can' t. make their . case that 4 way, but we haven' t come to that point. 5 MR. FLYNN: Well, another thing, Your Honor, is that i 6 in this particular case, I mean, so much attention has been 7 given to the rebuttable presumption. But in this particular 8 case where FEMA's position depends so heavily on an 9 interpretation of regulationw and guidance, no matter what we 10 say, you, the Board, have the ultimate say on what these 11 documents mean. 12- So if -- I mean, that's why I say that I think this l
) 13 ~ factual information is relevant no matter what FEMA ultimately. ;
14 decides. 15 JUDGE SMITH: Well, it is true that much of the 16 A p p l i car.t s' testimony, nonfactual tantimony, would change + 17 depending upon if FEMA -- I mvan, depending upon what FEMA , 18 does. : 19 lt seems to me that youru would remain essentially 20 the same. You know, the Attorney General's would remain 21 essentially the same. 22 MR. OLESKEY: Well, i f -- 23 JUDGE SMITH: Go ahead. I 24 MR. OLESKEY: If FEMA changen its pouition and Mr. > 25 Dignan files nothinD, then I assume that the Stone J. Webutor l
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- 8550 1 shelters, everything else fallu away from the cane as evidencu 2 before you, and you' re left with a decision.whether evacuation 3 carrieu-the day on-the adequacy of the plan.
t 4 We will continue to argue, clearly, as you have just 5 uuggested, that sheltering iu-required, and that there in 6 nothi.qg factually in the case that shown that there in any . 7 possibility of adequate sheltering even though'they are no I 8 longer advocating for sheltering an a protective action.' ; 9 JUDGE SMITH: You might do that as a case in chief, ,z 10 or you might do it as whatever. It may be rebuttal or 1 11 whatever. ; 12 MR. .OLESKEY: Yes, depending on how -- what FEMA , t _() 13 says, and that Mr. Dignah in fact withdrawu'hiu panel, and I 14 therefore his direct tentimony with all this supporting s i 15 documentation abcut how sheltering could work for the beach - l 16 population, because the plan would then have no sheltering 17 provision for the beach population, which in a very important 18 fact. I I 19 JUDGE SMITH: Okay. All ri Dht. So I think that we
)
20 have somewhat of a consensuu, or at least lack of objection to i 21 approaching it. Either we' ll take Mr. Flynn's representation, 22 if you will, that the RAC meeting, the recent RAC meeting, did i 23 not bring up any new technical or factual issueul that the ; 24 issue before the decisionmakers at FEMA in, au he outlined the 25 iusue, the application of the regulation, the application of i Heritage Reporting Corporation i (202) 628-4888 l a $ I
855 P) L L 1 the NUREG, essentially policy and legal issues. If that in the 2 case, then we would have what I would reDard as a rather 3 limited discovery effort, if any, against FEMA, because it 4 cert al.n ly is going to be relevant as to what the rebuttable 5 presumption-in. 6 Dut the law of the case is for us to decide, and we 7 just would not support a very large diucovery effort on legal 8 issues. 9 As norry as you may be to hear that, Mr. Backus, that 10 is the fact. 11 MR. BACKUS: Well, Mr. Chairman, it seems to me all la along this has been a very frustrating proceeding with the plan 13 being in the state of evolvement, the position of FEMA being in f) 14 the state of evolvement. 15 I think the root issue here is the legal standard 16 that's going to be applied. I said it in my opening statement. 17 18 JUDGE SMITH: 1 agree with you. I think that the 19 law -- the legal issues are bubbling to the top au being the 20 controlling issues. 21 MR. BACKUS: i.nd what I wanted to suggest is why 22 doesn' t this Board consider deciding what the legal innues are. 23 Is it, au Mr. Flynn says, a best faith effort or i sn' t it? 24 JUDGE SMITH
- Well, we haven' t been called upon to do 25 : hat.
O Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
- 85%:
.1 MR. BACKUS: Pardon me?
2 JUDGE SMITH: We have not been. called upon to do 3 that.-
- 3. 4 MR. BACKUS: Well, I may -- I just raise this as a 5 suggestion, and I may follow up with a pleading on it. It may 6 be time to ask the Appeal Board and maybe the Commission itself 7 to decide what these emergency planning rules mean so that we 8 can properly litigate them.
~ 9 JUDGE SMITH: We have to a large extent in respect to 10 your testimony on the Sho11y-Beyea testimony, but we have not 11 addressed the 1er, al issues, nor have we been requested to and 12 invited to, that control this situation here. () 13 MR. BACKUS: Ultimately the'NRC is Doing to have to 14 decide that in terms of this case. And I think we ought to all 15 know. Our position is clear. It's been clear from October 5th 16 when I made my openinD statement. There should be some 17 substantive requirement for protective actions to be achieved l 18 by emergency planning; that a best faith effort in not enough. l 19 But if a best faith effort is enough, we should know l 20 that. l 21 JUDGE SMITH: Now -- 22 MR. BACKUS: I think we should have known it before 23 we started the hearing, but better now than waiting longer.
- 24 JUDGE SMITH
- Okay.
E313 25 (Continued on next page.) () Heritage Reporting Corporation j (202) 628-4888
9 p O 8553 1 MR. BACKUS: I think it would be e. breach of faith 2 with the citizens of New Harnpuhire; I think it would be a 3 breach of f aith on the NRC's -- 4 JUDGE SMITH: All ri Dht, corne on. 5 MR. BACKUS: -- own statements to the Court of 6 Appeals in SAPL versus NRC, but if that in DoinD to be tht 7 position I think we should know it. 8 JUDGE SMITH: All right, let's keep our argurne.ts 9 legal. 10 MR. TRAFICONTE: Your Honor, if I could be ju st 11 heard briefly on the Sholly-Beyea discunnion, we have filed 12 last week a rootion to certify that iusue, that evidentiary () 13 decision. And -- 14 JUDGE SMITH: With uu? i 15 MR. TRAFICONTE: No, with the Appeal Board. 16 JUDGE SMITH: Oh. 17 NR. TRAFICONTE: And I would just like to rnake these 18 corarnent s. It in quite clear to rne after reviewing the law on 19 certification, interlocutory review before the NRC, that it is 20 very rare for an evidentiary issue -- for exaraple, the 21 exclusion of evidence, an we had in this case -- to be given 22 interlocutory review; that is rare. I arn fairly certain there 23 are no cauen in which an evidentiary issue has been taken on 24 interlocutory. 25 In the brief that I filed with the Appeal Board, 1 O Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 i
]8 8554 ;
s 1 cited, I had record support for the proposition that in raaking -
-2 your evidentiary ruliPD you spent a lot of time, the Board 3 spent a lot of t irne on, heard argument on, considered and 4 weighed lengthy argument by, I think, all parties -- I know Mr.
5 Flynn, I guess Mr. Flynn did not argue this issue at that time 6 -- but on all other, argurnent f rorn h31 other partles as to what 7 the legal utandard along the lines just sketched by Mr. Backun 6 is. i 9 And certainly it is our position that if not ; i 10 directly, at least indirectly, this Board han addresned as a 11 first cut, has addressed this leDal standard innue in ruling 4 12 that the Sholly-Deyea tant irnony in not relevant. ()
.m 13 Not i, I arn concerned that, first, that I 14 misinterpreted -- your recent commentu to Mr. Dackun make rne '
15 thir.k I rany have raininterpreted, but more importantly, 1 think 16 that we rnay have an opportunity right now, with our rnotion that , 17 is before the Appeal Board and no doubt will be heard, briefed 18 by Mr. Dignan, and heard in this hiatus that we are about to , 19 enter into here of two or three weeks, or whatever it in the # 20 Board deciden. l 21 It neerns to rne that we could, we rnight already be in 22 a position to have the legal standard inuue heard an an initial ; 23 rnatter before the Appeal Board. 24 JUDGE SMITH: The one issue that I d or.' t see b e i ., g , i 25 working its way up to the Appeal Board, based upcn the beyua Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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f 1- Sholly testimony in the issue that Mr. Flynn just dincunned, i 2 and that i n, does the NUREG and the regulation require, "a a 6 I 3 cange" of protective -- L " ~
-4 MR. TRAFICONTE No, I agree.
i 5 JUDGE SMITH: And I think that in sort of becoming , 6 the core issue that we are going to be' dealing with here, and 7 that we haven' t been invited to rule upon; we have no record to 8 'r;jle upon it. i 9 MR. TRAFICONTE: No, I agree that issue is still - i 10 open, but the other issue that Mr. Flynn hinted at, au to the 11 qualitative, as to whether or not there in a qualitative i 12 standard against which the plan in to be meanured? ,
) 13 JUDGE SMITH: I think that that's ripe for -- as we l 14 ,said it in ruling upon it -- wo_ recognize that it was an innue .
i I' l 15 that would affect the proceeding in a pervanive way and -- 16 MR. TRAFICONTE: Right, and the only reauon why I 7 17 raise these comments now, is because a minute or two ago, Your j 18 Honor, said that it was your view that these legal issues i 19 outlined by Mr. Flynn have not been presented in this j 20 proceeding for your enview, and I just wanted to clarify, , 21 because I know we may hear thin later in front of the Appeal { 22 Board. ! 23 Today's t ranscript obviously would be part of what , i l 24 the Appeal Board may want to look at, and I just want to make ; I 25 sure that we are clear chat at least the qualitative stcodard !
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1 issue tau boon addressed in the context of the Gholly-Deyea , I 2 ruling.- 3 JUDGE SMITH: I agree. 4 MR. TRAFICONTE: Okay. 5- MR. OLESKEY: Just one additional point.there.
'a My colleague,-Ms. Sneider, remindu me that our.offico 7 filed motions for summary disposition based upon the issue of 8 the range of protective actions, I think last March and last 9 June before Your Honor was a member of the Board, which were 10 obviouuly denied.
11 So -- 12 MS. SNEIDER: They weren' t heard. MR. OLESKEY: 4
) 13 They were not heard. They are 14 presumably, then, sitting there. Maybe that does furnish a l
l 15 vehicle. 16 MR. TURK: Your Honor, just so the record is clear, I 17 don' t think it's fair to say that the current plan has no range 18 at all for protection of beach populations. 19 I think arguments can be made that even the , 20 provisions that are there now, with respect to evacuation, 21 provide within the scope of evacuation certain ranges, which is 22 something which may be explored in factual testimony. 23 For instance, the opportunity to evacuate certain 24 portions of the beach areas before other areau are evacuated; f 25 the opportunity to not direct people to evacuate, however, ; I Heritage Reporting Corporation i (202) 628-4888
8557 1 simply to close off access to beachou for new people coming in. 2 And it's not fair to say that there is no range if 3 ovacuation an a General matter in the only option that may be 4 relied upon by the State. And further -- 5 JUDGE SMITH: Yeu, I understand what you' re saying, 6 yes. 7 MR. TURK: And further -- 8 MR. DIGNAN: And the wholo beach closing concept that 9 has been discussed in depth is an aspect that in short of 10 evacuation. t 11 MR. TURK: And, further, as I understand the current 12 plan, it's that shelter may be recommended on an ad hoc basis, ; () 13 regardless of what FEMA does with its testimony. That's + 14 something that I don' t underntand the State au saying will bo i 15 altogether disregarded. , 16 And again, that's a factual inuuo that might be ; 17 explored. 18 JUDGE SMITH: Well, exactly. That's why I' m hung up 19 on everyone trying to pass their testimony through the FEMA 20 gateway. It seems to me that this is utill going to be 21 relevant no matter what happenu. 22 MR. DIGNAN: Your Honor, one other item. Understand 23 I am more tnan happy to take Mr. Flynn' u representat ion of what 24 went on in a RAC meeting, rather than having a witness, but I 25 wanted to be nure I underntcod the rangu of the reprouentation. O Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
} i 855a
~J 1 If I rnight ask Mr. Flynn a question.
2 Joe, when you said nothing new was considered, was 3 the shelter study, so-called, considered-at that roesting, or is 4 that something that has never been considered by the RAC7 3 MR. FLYNN: My recollection is that there was, there 6 certainly was no in-depth discunnion of the shelter survey; the 7 RAC didn' t get to that. i 8 The outcome of the discussion on the beach population 9 test imony didn' t hinge on anything -- 10 MR. DIGNAN: In the shelter survey? 11 MR. FLYNN: In the shelter survey, right. 12 JUDGE SMITH: Can everybody hear Mr. Flynn? h. h 13 MS. WEISS: No, no -- 14 JUDGE SMITH: But this is very i rnport ant . 15 MS. WEISS: Who is that gentleman behind you? 16 MR. TURK: For Ms. Weius's ar.d the Board'u 17 information, let roe identify that Dr. Robert Baron is in the 18 room and Mr. Flynn just now was turning to him for confiernation 19 as to what happened at the RAC meeting. 20 Dr. Doren is the NRC RAC member. 21 MR. FLYNN: Let rae repeat what I just sa'.d so 22 everyone can hear it. 23 There was no in-depth discussion of the shelter 24 survey. There was a very peremptory discuanion of where it 25 ought to be on the agenda and then Dot pushed to the end of the D Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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1 agenda and then time ran out and the weather got bad and it was t 2 not discussed. 3 I also represented to Mr. Di Dnan that the discussion 4 on the beach population testimony did not hinga on any 5 consideration of the substance of the shelter survey. G MS. WEISS: I thought from something that you had , 7 said yesterday that the RAC had decided that they would 8 consider or take a look at the shelter study sometime in the 9 future, is that correct? 10 MR. FLYNN: Yes. [ 11 MR. OLESKEY: Since we' re -- 1 Duess the Board is 12 considering whether Mr. Flynn's representat ions would () 13 subst it ut e for Mr. Thomas's cross-examinat ion, it's my view, at 14 least for our office that I' m happy to take Mr. Flynn's 15 representations all day, but I don' t think they' re a ~ 16 substitute, given the importance that we' ve all attached to the 1 17 RAC process, to a full exposition of what happened on Thursday, 18 and what happened on Friday; what the kind of considerations 19 were that were at issue; and some cross-examination to test 20 those positions. ! 21 JUDGE SMITH: Well, I see. 22 All right, for your purpoaos you are not willing to , 23 take his representation, without reflection upon Mr. F1ynn? I i J 24 MR. OLESKEY: That's exactly right, Your Honor. 25 MR. FLYNN: I certainly don' t want to be a witness. l () Heritage Reporting Corporation ! (202) 628-4888
t 8560 L1 1 JUDGE GMITH: All right. 2 Well, how about this? 3 Mr. Boren in here. He wan.present at the HAC l 4 committen;.Mr. Thomas is apparently available. Can' t we have a [ 5 rather upontaneous panel of people who were there and have them t G_ report what happened and be subject to a certain amount ~of 3 7 inquiring cross-examination? , 8 MR. FLYNN: I am prepared to do that if.you direct me j , 9 t o, yen. 10 MR. TURK: Your Honor, I don' t want to delay thin 11 proceeding in any way. It would be my preference that we not i 12 Do ahead with it, however, for one simple reason, j 13
) It's easy enough to say, let'u only do an exploration [
14 of what happened at the meeting factually. Then I think you 15 start getting into rationalen for positions expresund, and that l 16 Dets us into the substance of whether or not the shelter , t 17 provisions are adequate. - 18 Now, i f we' re Doing to get to a point where the NRC 19 staff has to put on a view as to whether the provisions are 20 adequate or not, then I'd like to prepare testimony in advance. j 21 JUDGE SMITH: Well, I don' t , no, that is not the ; i i t 22 purpose of it. The purpose of it tu to establish whether or -
! L 23 not there has been any new technological, factual banua .
I j 24 considered by the RAC and incorporated in their deliberations { 25 and voten? I I Heritage Reporting Corporation > )' (202) 628-4888 I 2 I
+w-- - - ---g-w- , , - , py,,-. ,--,--.,-----n,,,v- m- - m p - w -- . -w-- -s----
l 4 O (./ 856: 1 MR. DIGNAN: If that's tha only purpose of the 2 inquiry, I see no need, and I' d ask Mr. Olenkey to reconsider 3 whether he needs cross-examination. If we are going to confine 4 the witneuses to a yes or no, essentially to that questions did 5 you have any new technological thing? I think Mr. F l ynn' s 6 representation is as Dood as anythinD, if we' re confininD it to 7 that. 8 JUDGE SMITH: Well, what other purpose had you 9 thought that we taight -- 10 MR. DIGNAN: I had no purpose in doing it at all. , 4 p 11 Mr. Oleskey -- 12 JUDGE SMITH: What did you think that we had in mind? () 13 MR. DIGNAN: I thought only that, and that's why I i
- 14 was content to take the representation of Mr. Flynn. As I 15 understand it, you are not asking the RAC for any dissertation 16 on what happened in the RAC on policy, or background or 17 anything like that, but rather did you have some new facts in t
i 18 front of you, and if so, what were they? i 19 JUDGE SMITH: Right. 20 MR. OLESKEY: Well, I want to find out in some detail i l 21 what happened at the RAC in the same fashion that Mr. Dignan, 22 out of order, and over the Intervenor's object ions, was twice 23 allowed to voir dire Mr. Thomas at length about what happened 24 in prior RACs. 25 It's pref atory to deciding for us and the other , k Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 [
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( 1 Intervenors where we' re going to come down on sheltering. It's ! 2 brinDing us up to date on what's been happening in those i 3 deliberations since July 30th. So maybe that is a broador view 4 than what Your Honor had. , 5 JUDGE SMITH: It is. ! 6 MR. OLESKEY: But that is our, that is my view, at 7 least. 8 MR. FLYNN: Your Honor -- 9 MR. DIGNAN: Well, I would point out nothing Mr. 10 Flynn has said, Mr. Oleskey, indicates that the FEMA member : 11 changed his position at the RAC meeting. 12 So what have you got to cross-examine him about? , 13 MR. OLESKEY:
) I want to find out what everybody at 14 the RAC said, Mr. Dignan, so I' ll understand where we are on _v 15 January 12th.
16 MR. DIGNAN: Well, as far as we know, nobody changed 17 their position.
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i 18 MS. WEISS: Well, there were two days of meetings. I ] i 19 Obviously something went on; there were presentations made, [ 20 there was considerations of some issues and positions voiced.
- 21 JUDGE SMITH: Furthermore, Mr. Dignan, we still have
, 22 an issue as to what happened in previous RAC meetings? 23 MR. DIGNAN: We sure do, Your Honor. I 24 Understand, I' m not saying that this will never be 25 gone into. The question lu, as I heard the Board, and perhaps j 1 I l Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 L i
(~N 8563 0 1 I misunderstood you, but the Board's suggest ion was before 2 deciding where to Do with it, you know, do we package this
-3 thing up as I' ve suggested and put it off for some time.
4 One of the things the Board was interested and_or 5 thought would be of interest to the parties to find out, did 6 the RAC meeting take up any new technological information? 7 If I heard Mr. Flynn's representation correctly, he B said, no, and he's fully explained to what extent the shelter 9 study, which one could say is new, got discussed, and he said 10 it played no part in what they did. But we know what the 11 shelter study is. I mean, that in out there for everyone to 12 read. () 13 And if that's all that the Board is interested in 14 hearing today or tomorrow, then it scoms to me we ought to take 15 the representation of Mr. Flynn and go from there. 16 In terms of what went on at various RAC meetings, Mr. 17 Oleskey, I imagine you and I will be climbinD over each other 18 to get at those witnesses at some point. 19 JUDGE SMITH: Okey, well -- 20 MR. DIGNAN: But that's for another day. 21 JUDGE SMITH: -- let's back off a minute, l et ' s back 22 off a minute. 23 Let me inquire here. Did the RAC -- who are the 24 policy makers at FEMA? 25 MR. FLYNN: The people that I have been referrinD to, O Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 i i
O 8'J6% i but not by name, are Grant Peterson, who is the associate
-2 director for state and local proDrams and support; and Dave 3 McLaughlin, who is the assistant associate director. And I 4 forget his exact title, but he is immediately under Mr.
5 Peterson. In fact, Mr. McLaughlin was acting in the position 6 of associate director during the period after -- 7 JUDGE SMITH: Well -- 8 MR. FLYNN: -- the previous associate director left. - 9 It was a period of nine months or so. . 10 JUDGE SMITH: So they, those, between the two of them 11 they have the responsibility for formulating a position? 12 MR. FLYNN: Yes. [) 13 JUDGE SMITH: Now, what mechanism do you have for 14 getting the information to them? 15 MR. FLYNN: Meetings, sitting down with them and ~~ 16 JUDGE SMITH: You sit down with them? 17 MR. FLYNN: Mr. Thomas would sit down with them. ' 18 JUDGE SMITH: There's no formal report of the RAC7 19 MR. FLYNN: Well, normally there is, but this is a 20 little different from the normal process. Normally what ! 21 happenu is the RAC is considering a plan or an exerciue, and 22 they generate a plan review, a lengthy document, or an exercise , 23 report, and then that document is submitted to headquarters for 24 review. i E l 25 And eventually it works its way up through several i Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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($) ;- 1 other layern of bureaucracy to the individuals that I just ; 2 mentioned. , i 3 g . JUDGE SMITH: Well, if you wanted -- nay that you 4 were the Maunachusettu Attorney' General and you wanted the most 5 efficient discovery of,the bases for their position, and in 6 particular_you wanted to know what technological or factual 7 bases there were, what instrumentalities would you be looking 8 for? 9 MR. FLYNN: I would want to take the deposition of 10 those two individuals and one or two of the technical support il people at headquarters. i 7
-12 MS. WEISS: Could you tell me who those two are, i
() 13 please? [ i i 14 JUDGE SMITH: You don' t have a clean channel of . i !
- 15 information going up to them, a record, no to speak, upon wh(ch 16 they make their decisions? -
i l 17 MR. FLYNN: Not on this, no.
- 1 18 May I suggest --
19 JUDGE SMITH: See, we' re st ill talking in context of l 20 what discovery we might need for the RAC position -- I mean, 21 the FEMA position. 22 MS. WEISS: Before we pass it by, Mr. Chairman, could 23 Mr. Flynn please give me the nameu of the two -- l 24 JUDGE SMITH: You struck gold there, d i d n' ,t you? 25 (Laughter.) Heritaba Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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-1 MR. FLYNN - The names are -- well, the particular j 2 t ep.hni c al person that you would be interested in talking'to I 3 would be Craig Wingo, W-I-N-G-0.
4 And I wish I could tell you what his title is, but I 5 forDat. 6 MS. WEISS: Ho$ s in D.C.? 7 MR. FLYNN: Yes. 8 I wanted to suggest, Your Honor, on the question of 9 what happened at that RAC meeting, we have two people here in. 10 Concord who were at the meeting, Ed Thomas and Robert Dores. 11 And I would suggest informal discovery this evening, 12 no as not to interrupt this hearing; as many people as want to 13 get together and talk to them can do so.
)
14 And counsel will be present. It would be an informal 15 deposition, if you will. [ r 16 JUDGE SMITH: I think that's a generous of fer, i 17 MR. FLYNN: I mean -- 1 i 18 JUDGE SMITH: Mr. Dores just indicated his assent. 19 MR. TURK: I turned to Dr. Bores just now and asked i ! 20 him how he would feel about that, and he, as the Board noticeo, 21 he nodded affirmatively. 22 I would note, also, I had asked Dr. Dores a few j t
- 23 minutes ago whether he would be prepared to take the stand [
24 here, and he said he wouldn' t object as long as he could first 25 have time to prepare some notes for himself to help his ! t Heritage Reporting Corporation [ 4 (202) 628-4888 [
1 f SUG? L 1 recollection. - 2 But I think the informal discovery route is the best 3 way to go, right now. 4 MR. OLESKEY: I' d be happy to start things for our 5 office Your Honor, without prejudicing any further arguments, 6 but where do we go from there? 7 JUDGE SMITH: Okay, 1 -- 8 M R. TURK: I do want to note, however, that in terms 9 of putting forth a staff position on whether or not the beach 10 shelter provisions in the plan currently are adequate, I do 11 want to have an opportunity to prepare testimony i f, in fact, 12 the Staff is ever going to put forward a position. () 13 JUDGE SMITH: Right, let's have the ground rules for
- 14 discovery and which we would have had for testimony; it's not 15 an inquiry into the bases for Dr. Dores's posit ion, or anybody 16 e l se' s position, but what happened at the RAC meeting.
17 The bases of the positions of the various 18 participants at the RAC, I think, is going to be another matter 19 that cannot be handled so informally and easily. 20 MR. BACKUS: May I just suggest maybe counsel for the 21 agencies have no objection to having the informal discovery be 22 wide-ranging. I am not sure we need to put a limit on it. ; 23 JUDGE SMITH: I would just as soon that they did, 24 t. hey would and maybe I am wrong, I don' t know. 25 MR. BACKUS: We would just as soon have an i Heritage Reporting Corporation l (202) 628-4888 l
l 8560 1 opportunity to discuss everything of interest to us with them, 2 and I don' t know, maybe t hey won' t have any objection to that? 3 MR. TURK: I certainly do. 4 MR. BACKUS: You do? 5 MR. TURK: If the Staff 14 going to put forward a 6 position, it will be a position expressed through our 7 headquarters. Dr. Bores has been the NRC Staff member in the 8 RAC meetings and has expressed a view on behalf of NRC, but if 9 I' m going to put forward testimony I want to have headquarters 10 concurrence in the view. 11 I think just for the Board's educat ion on this 12 matter, we ran into a little bit of a problem earlier this 13 year, when the position was expressed through the NRC region,
)
14 without having passed through leDal counsel and NRC Staff 15 technical review. 16 And ? think that prompted concerns on the part of 17 Intervenors that somehow NRC was changing its view, which is 18 not true, it just simply hadn' t received the kind of 19 concurrence and review that we normally give things. 20 JUDGE SMITH: Okay. 21 (Continued on the next page.) 22 23 24 i 25 Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 1 l 1
i l l 1 8569 d('N T315 -1 JUDGE SMITH: Well, very good. I l 2 But let's have informal discovery. You may wish then 1 3 to reduce your formal discovery to stipulation following it, or ! 4 maybe even a short piece of record testimony in areas where you 5 can' t stipulate. Eut let's do understand that there would 6 be -- the limitation is what happened at the RAC meeting, and 7 we don' t support discovery into the underlying bases of the 8 positions taken by the participants. 9 MR. DIGNAN: Is it a -- 10 JUDGE SMITH: At this timo, you know, for this 11 purpose. 12 MR. DIGNAN: Is a legitimato question to ask tonight () 13 why was there a RAC meeting? 14 JUDGE SMITH: I guess so. 15 MR. DIGNAN: Thank you. 16 JUDGE SMITH: But I' m sure that each of you have 17 sufficient imagination to stretch -- 18 (Laughter.) e 19 MR. DIGNAN: Your Honor, I' ve got a lot of , , 20 imagination. I just don' t like to run afoul of a Board order. l l 21 That's why I went to know if I can ask that question, because 22 I' m going to ask it. 23 MS. WEISS: I' m concerned, too. I mean, I' m 24 certainly willing to accept the Board's limitation, that is, 25 that we don' t question about the technical bases for the views, O Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
f t r D 1 however you want to say it. But I would certainly like to ask 2 what have the contacts been from people outside of_the RAC to i ' . 3 the two people that I' m, you know, talking to, to Mr. Thomas 4 and Mr. Boros. I mean, there are a variety of questions other 5 than what happened at the RAC meeting that are going to be { 6 relevant to the process and the integrity of the process that I , 7 would like to be able to question without treading on the 8 restricted area. 9 JUDGE SMITH: That's where I think you' re starting to 10 get into trouble. 11 Would you -- I guess I really don' t underutand how r , 12 you separate an inquiry into the bases for their position and 13 the context in which they express their position.
)
14 MR. OLESKEY: Judge, why don' t we try thin as a way 15 through the conundrum. 16 Why don' t we leave it to the two counsel for the 17 agencieu to say we' d rather you didn' t go into that area, and l j 18 if that requires us to ask the Board -- 19 JUDGE SMITH: Okay, right. a 20 MR. OLESKEY: -- tomorrow to ask questions here, 21 we' l l do it. 22 JUDGE SMITH: That's very good. That's a good point. 4 23 MR. OLESKEY: And then we won' t be running afoul of . 24 your orders, i 25 JUDGE SMITH: Yes, it's like an informal deposition, , I:) ) Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
857J (]
'q) 1 as a raatter of fact.
2 MR. OLESKEY: HiDht. 3 JUDGE SMITH: All right, anything furthur on this 4 point? 5 Maybe what we' ll do -- 6 MR. TURK: We _ haven' t established any nort of t irne 7 l irait on this free-ranging inquiry. In that regard, I want to 8 note two things. g 9 One, I don' t think it's going to be reasonable to ask 10 our people to be subjected to this, what I perceive to be a 11 si x-part it e ininirnurn inquiry for too long a portod. I ' rn la thinking in terrns of one or two hours would be reasonable. 13 Beyond two hours, we atart getting -- 14 JUDGE SMITH: I was hoping that purhaps, if t irne 15 would pe rrn i t , we could rnaybe do it earlier than this evening. 16 You know, roaybe carve out sorne tirne this af ternoon in which 1 ~/ we' d be available to corne in and referee disputes or that type 18 of thing. 19 MR. DIGNAN I think that wou l t) be a rauch better 20 idea. 21 M R. TURK: Also, I was goinD to taake another point 22 which rnaybe Your Honor has Jul.t cured. And that is, if I see 23 roy staff roern ber is subjected to a prolonged 1ine of iraproper 24 questioning, or in in any way harassed, I'ra going to withdraw 25 h i rn. O Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 l
i f[ T 857R
' L.) i 1 JUDGE SMITH: I just can' t believe that that would ,
2 happen. t 3 MR. TURK: Well, I don' t know what's going t'o happen, 4 but I don't want the Board to feel that I' ra going to keep my 5 man available for any kind of harassing or improper questions.
?
6 JUDGE SMITH: That's not going to happen. There is 7 nothing here that suggests to the Board that there is not going 8 to be a very civil inquiry, 9 All right. l 10 MR. OLESKEY: Let me ask procedurally, if it's going il to be this afternoon, could we use this roora, Judge? 12 JUDGE SMITH: Yeah. 1
) 13 MR. OLESKEY: And could we use --
] 14 JUDGE SMITH: That's why I -- that's one of the 4 15 reasons why I thought that it might be just neater if we carve i 16 out some tirne this afternoon, and convene in this room. But ] 4 17 how about Mr. - yeah, Mr. Thordas -- i 1 18 MR. BACKUS: Your Honor, I just would really like to 19 get my rebuttal panel on today if I could. One of the members 20 is a person who had to take a day off f rorn work. So I' d like 21 to have enough of hearing time left to hear that panel today. 22 JUDGE SMITH: Okay. Well, I think we' re ready to 23 start with testimony. l 24 MR. OLESKEY: The last part of what I was going to 0 l 25 say was could we use the reporter so we have a record of what Heritage Reporting Corporation 3 (202) 628-4888
1 i j l i l 1 8573 a . i 1 these people have told us about what happened, and thero is no l 2 squabbling later? 3 JUDGE SMITH: Do you want to make it a deposition? l 4 MR. OLESKEY: Well, there is something of the nature 5 of both; I agree. 6 JUDGE SMITH: What's the pleasure of the parties [ 7 there? 8 MR. DACKUS: In terms of having a record, I would I 9 like there to be a record of it. i 10 JUDGE SMITH: Would you like to have -- how about - 11 this, would you like to have an informal round robin 12 evidentiary presentation? ; () 13 MR. FLYNN: That was not part of my offer. 14 JUDGE SMITH: Okay, you don' t want that. 15 MR. FLYNN: I'm willing to go so far as a deposition, 16 a recorded, tronscribed deposition. i 17 JUDGE SMITH: Well, we have the authority to direct a 18 deposition, and we can do that, we can do that. ; 19 I guess I don' t really appreciate thn distinction j 20 you' re going to be drawing now between a deposition and an 21 informal round robin evidentiary presentation. The difference ! 22 being we' re sitt ing right here listening, and we can make a ; 23 better effort to keep it under control. l 24 MR. FLYNN: Oh. I had not understood you to mean , p 25 'that you would be attending the deposition and presiding over j C:) l l Heritage Reporting Corporation l (202) 628-4888 5 l t
F i 8579 ,
't it.
2 JUDGE SMITH: Yes, right. Really, what it is is us 3 presiding over a -- call it whatever you want. I would call it , 4 an informal round robin evidentiary presentation where we don' t i 5 have -- we just take turns asking questions whenever they occur 6 to people. 7 MR. FLYNN: Well -- s 8 JUDGE SMITH: We would ask -- you would ask both of 9 them to explain, or one of them to explain what happened at the ; 10 RAC meeting, the other ont to supplement it, and then.go around j 11 the table and let them ask questions about it. We' re here, , 12 it's in the record. () 13 MR. FLYNN: If it's part of the hearing record, then 14 I would feel it would be more important to have constraints on 15 the range of the questions. But if you' re going to be j 16 here, --
- 17 JUDGE SMITH: That's right, we' re here.
t 18 MR. FLYNN: -- then that can be addressed right away. ; i 19 JUDGE SMITH: We' ll just sit right here, and just go I j ' 20 into that phase of it. ! { i 21 MR. DIGNAN: Do I understand, Your Honor, then -- i
' 22 whether you call it informal or not, you' re going to put them f I
3 23 under oath? 9 24 JUDGE SMITH: Yes, right. 25 But what I' m saying in that we dispense with the
- i Heritage Reporting Corporation ,
(292) 628-4888 k
r O 1 profiled written t o u t i rnony, we ask thern to uxplain what 2 happened, the relevant aspects of it, and then we start asking 3 cuestions around the t r.b l e . You know, that's thu way trialu 4 are handled in 95 percent of the courts in this country, and 3 without all this preparation, and justice is sornehow ekud out. 6 (Laughter.) 7 JUDGE SMITH: Well, so, what's the pleasure of the 8 parties with that approach? 9 MR. OLESKEY: That sounds good. l 10 JUDGE SMITH: Anybody object to that? 11 I think t hat 's a little bit raore direct and la efficient. I think it's ef ficient and it solves a lot of later O 12 nre b i e ras- o" x' xee niam em t"et-14 MR. TURK: Could I rae nt i on one thing, Your Honor? 15 I'ra checking through the rules, and I see that i 16 norraa l l y the EDO would i d ent i t'y the witness. But I think under 17 I the circorastances the relevant evidence is in the handh of Dr. i 18 l Dores - 19 JUDGE SMITH: Yes. 20 MR. TURK: - for the tit a f f , and I think we' 11 b i ra p l y 21 raake hira available. 22 JUDGE SMITH: lhlb i t. a classic case of where only 23 Dr. Bores would have the i n f orraat i on that we think is necensary 24 to a decision. 25 MR. TURK: In t e rra s of what happened at ihls l at et.t O h Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) C28-4868
.1
. p,q 8576
;IL)
.1 RAC rnesting.
2 JUDGE SMITH: Right. Yes, not -- you' re right, 3 we' ll -- 4 MR. TURK: We' re pretty close now to the Applicants' 5 motion to compel appearance. 6 JUDGE SMITH: That's right. 7 MR. TURK: Maybe we should address that right now, P 8 too. We' t a going to have to take test irnony -- \ 9 MS. WEISEr Well, you should be aware that if you 10 waive the objection at this point, you' ve waived it. There's 11 no longer any requiremant to subpoena that man. He' d be f 12 subject tr recall on the same basis as i ny other witness. i l' 13 MR. DIGNAN: No, he's not. he's subject - twL 14 MS. WEISS: Oh, yes, he i s, Tom. I just read the 15 case on-that. a 16 Once he's of fered -- 17 MR. DIGNAN: On the same subject matter, and as I 18 understand this -- 4 19 MS. WFISS: Well, that's this subject matter. 20 MR. DIGNAN: And I understand the deposition today, 21 Your Honor, is to be confined to the RAC meeting that took 22 place Black Monday and Tuesday; is that correct? 23 JUDGE SMITH: Yes, we' re cut t ing it -- it's not a 24 deposition. 25 MR. DIGNAN: Excuse me. Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) G28-4888 l
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1 JUDGE SMITH: Evidentiary. 2 MR..DIGNAN: Evidentiary, but we' re being confined to 3 that -- 4 JUDGE SMITH: Let's cut right through. 5 If we decide that testimony is necessary to a 6 decision, the testimony of Dr. Bores is necessary to a decision 7 in this proceeding, this is almost a pure case of where the i 8 Licensing Board directs his appearance notwithstanding the fact i 9 that the EDO does not designate. 10 I mean, what other example could be better? I mean, 11 here we' re talking about information that only he possesses as 12 opposed to what the NRC's position is on the issue. He will ( ), 13 riot be offered for what the NRC's -- well, that's going to be a 14 narrow -- 15 MR. TURK: My concern -- ' 16 JUDGE SMITH: What the NRC's position was at the RAC, 17 certainly. 18 MR. TURK: Certainly what was expressed at RAC is 19 within his knowledge. Indeed, it would be -- 20 JUDGE SMITH: And what NRC authorized him to say at 21 RAC. 22 MR. TURK: I believe the entire NRC Staff position 23 could be expressed by Dr. Bores, assuming we had time to write R4 it out in advance and put l i. a l l the different considerstions 25 that go into the decision, things which may not occur to his t ( Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 ' J
1 I-r- T3 857a L.) a i recollection or him being asked about.what was actually stated 2 at a RAC meeting as opposed to the different considerations 3 that went into the formulation of that st a t er1ent . s. 4 If we can keep it to what transpired at the RAC 5 meeting, I will not object. 6 JUDGE SMITH: Well, all ri Dht. Now, we' re backing 7 up. 8 We have the motion by the Applicant to issue a
; 9 subpoena to Dr. Bores with respect to what happened at previous 10 RAC meetings. And I think that they have the same 11 considerations there as we would have this afternoon.
12 It seems to me that that is a classic case of tne
) 13 exemption of the language ir there to the effect that a person 14 has personal knowledge of the facts. That is a gol. den example
, 15 of when that part iculat - person should be required to give 16 testimony.
17 You haven' t addressed it. I don' t know. I just can' t 18 imagine what your argument is going to be, -- 19 MR. TURK: Why don' t I do it. 20 JUDGE SMITH: -- but you haven' t addressed it. Yes. 21 MR. TURK: I can get t' it right now. 22 I don' t think there is any need for me to wait for 23 Mr. Dignan to describe his motion, I think the Board is -- 24 JUDGE SMITH: I think the motion is short and easily 25 understood. T
~/"J L
Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 . w- -
,-g - , - - - - , --n ,-,,, w y
857':s
&N 1 MR. TURK: All right.
2 MR. D1GNAN: Could I note one typo I caught last 3 night in the motion, just for the purpose of the Board. 4 On Page 6 I make erference to a date of July 5, 1987, 5 in the next to the last line, and that should have been June. 6 I apologize. Nothing turns on it, but just to. clean it u p. 7 JUDGE SMITH: While you' re at it, Mr. Dignan, when I 8 read through this the first instance I thought I had come 9 across some information about a discussion of sheltering. And 10 then en rereading I couldn' t find it again. 11 MR. DIGNAN: Of sheltering? 12 JUDGE SMITH: Yes. I mean as to a conclusion. Well, [g,) .3 let me -- I thought I had come acronu a previous position taken 14 by FEMA with respect to sheltering. 15 MR. DIGNAN: Yes. 16 JUDGE SMITH: Yet, as it comes out -- 17 MR. DIGNAN: In the first part of the motion on 18 Page -- maybe you're referring to Page 2 where I say, "The lead 19 FEMA witnesu has testified that the pouition of the regional 20 assistant" -- this is in the third full paragraph, Your Honor, 21 on Page 27 22 JUDGE SMITH: Yes? 23 MR. DIGNAN: "Beach shelter in this proceeding had 24 been favorable to the posit ion of the Applicant s' readily 25 resolvable concernu until certain information was withdrawn." l /~N U Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4838
[N 8580 ( I
, 1 It raay be -' that you referred to.
2l JUDGE SMITH: ' No, that's not it. That's all right, 3- let it rest. 4 Go ahead, Mr. Turk. S MR. TURK: As a prelitninary matter, let rne state that 6 I agree with Mr. Dignan in his (notion whereby he cites 7 10 CFR 2. 72O (h ) , Subparagraph 2, which goes into the 8 exceptional circurnstance standard which the Board has 9 reiterated .just now, indicating that exceptional circurnst ances 10 for cornpelling the attendance of a particular named NRC 11 ernployee raay be rnade out where that ernployee has direct, 12 personal knowled D e of facts not known to witnesses otherwise
,- 13 rnade available by the execut ive director for operations.
.g
\ 14 To date, the Staff has not identified any witnesses 15 to be rnade available for examination on of f-site ernergency 16 preparedness' issues within the beach shelter context.
17 The reason for that is the Staff does not normally 18 advance a position on that kind of an issue. Norrnally that's 19 the FEMA prerogative. We have reserved the right to submit 20 rebuttal t est i rnony in the event that we disagree with the FEMA 21 t est i rnony, but to date we have not identified a panel. 22 Quite frankly, if I was going to put on a panel, it 23 would include Dr. Bores, who is here. 24 JUDGE SMITH: It would? 25 MR. TURK: It definitely would. [% i l Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 I
.-,..-..-1, . -. _ . - . . - . . - . - _ - _ . , - ,, - . ..- - . _ ,..-...~ .,
g., 858: N,0 1 JUDGE SMITH: Yes. 2 MR. TURK: Who is here today. 3 Mr. Lazarus is not the NRC RAC member. I rni gh t not 4 have identified hirn. I don' t know if Mr. Dignan would waive 5 his request to compel Mr. Lazarus's at tendance. 6 7 would note in that reDard, however, that we do have 7 Mr. Lazarus's memo as to what transpired at the July RAC 8 meeting, and Dr.-Bores in prepared to state whether or not he 9 agrees with the contents of that memo. That may be -- that it 10 Dr. Bores is required to testify on this issue, the events of 11 the July meening, that his simply stating whether or not he 12 agrees with the substance or the st at ernent s in that toerno rnay be t' ( 13 enough to satisfy Mr. Di gh>,)'s requent , so that Mr. Lazarus may 14 not be compelled to appear. 15 JUDGE SMITH: Have you talked to Mr. Dignan about 16 that? 17 MR. TURK: No, we haven' t had an opportunity. 18 I should say the thought hadn' t occurred to me until 19 I saw that we were going to arDue the point right now. 20 MR. DIGNAN: I' m being called on to agree or disagree l 1 21 at this point? l 22 MR. TURK: Well, yes, I guess the -- 23 MR. DIGNAN: I do not want to waive rny right to Mr. 24 Lazarus. It may turn out that -- well, why doesn't Mr. Turk 25 finish his argurnent. It rnay turn out it's not a root i. an to be (~% V Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 f
8582 {s/]2 1 decided today, but at this point I' m not ready to waive my Well, Mr. Turk should finish his 2 right to Mr. Lazarus. i 3 argument -and then I should make mine next. 1 4 MR. TURK: Now, turning to the types of,information 5 sought by Mr. Dignan's mot ion. 6 First, he identifies a series of areas in which the 7 memos prepared by Dr. Bores and Mr. Lazarus differ with remarks [ 8 made by Mr. Thomas in testimony. 9 For instance, he discusses differenc:s regarding the i l-10 RAC position prior to the NRC's withdrawal of information. Mr. 11 Dignan addresses differences with respect to the events of the 12 July 30th RAC meeting in terms of what was said and what was
) 13 done at that meeting.
14 And, third, he raises an issue as to the reasonable 15 assurance standard and whether FEMG's position, or i 16- interpretation of the standard differs from that of the NRC. I 17 In sum, at Page 17 and Page 1% of the motion, Mr. 18 Dignan identifies five areas which he seeks to pursue in 19 questioning of NRC Staff employees, wh4.ch are: The importance 20 of the so-called withdrawn informntion, when the importance of 21 that inforruat ion was explained to the RAC and FEMA's lead 22 witness, the events of the July 30th meeting, statements by 23 FEMA' s lead 0.itness. as to the FEMA interpretation of reasonable 24 assurance, and statements by FEMA's lead witness as to his 25 technical competence with regard to certain mattern. D Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 -
I l f' l 858L A) 1 Now, all of that information has to be judged by a 2 test of'whether or not it's relevant to issues before the 3 Board, 4 My position on that basically in that if FEMA , 5 withdraws its prior test iraony and comes up with a different-6 view as to whether or not the plans are adequate on beach 7 shelter, we will then be in a better position to know whether 8 or not these raatters are relevant. 9 Now, the Board may. decide that it can address the JO relevance now before seeing what FEMA has to say. Frankly, my 11 objective would have been prior to today's discussions to seek 12 to permit FEMA to formulate its testiroony without any pressure () 13 from me by having our testimony on the stand before them, 14 whereby they may feel that they may have to somehow tailor, or i 15 address -- tailor their testimony in the sense of addressing 16 certain points or not addressing certain points. l ? , 17 I' m simply not looking to pick a fight with FEM 4 cm 18 the Witness stand. It may be that the Board has reached a 19 point in time where it believes that the relavance of these 20 matters is there, and that it's necessary to get the NRC 21 Staf f's view of events and statements rnade at prior meetings.
,- 22 '
If the Trard is ready to reach a relevance decision 23 on that, unen I would subside. I wvtid simply perrait Dr. Dores 24 to be called, leaving for a +uture deterrainat ion whether or not E31D 25 Mr. Lazarus also needs to be called. Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 l
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l 85SL (~') v 1 JUDGE SMITH: We just don' t have any dif ficulty 2 arriving at the relevance of the RAC deliberations on the FEMA 3 position, including forrner positions and current positions, 4 assurning that everyone has the right to put on their case as S they see it. 6 It's not solely our view of relevance, it is the 7 relevance to the posit ion of c.ll of the parties in the case. 8 MR. DIGNAN: Your Honor, roay I point out, as I heard 9 rny brother Turk, and rnay be I rnisinterpreted hira, and I arn sure 10 he will tell rne so if I did, I a l tnout heard an argu nent that 11 the objection, to the extent he is rnaking one,, wasn' t so rauch 12 as to substance and an absolute position that he wanted to p () 13 resist the rnot ion as it was one of t irning. I '+ In essence, what he is asking is, is it necessary for 15 these people to take the stand, when, as and if a different 16 FEMA posit ion cornes forth that, at least frorn the Applicant s' 17 point of view as the rnoving party does away with the need for 18 these witnesses to appear. l '-] MR. TURK: I think that is correct and -- 20 i JUDGE SMITH: I appreciate it in a little bit 21 different context. You rni ght withdres your request. S 22 MR. DIGNAN: Yes. In other words, in terans of the 23 Board -- I obviously didn' t file thiu rootion without a good 24 reason and there roay be cireurnst ances, probably are going to 25 be, that I'11 press it, but I don' t have a prob l orn if the Board l O l 4 HeritaDe Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
n TT 8585 l 5J l 1 should conclude on the basis of what Mr. Turk has argued to you 2 that you should defer ruling absolutely on whether they must 3 take the stand on this subject until a later time, i . e. , until 4 the FEMA witnesses have testified. 5 For example, and I, you know, just to give an example 6 of what could occur, and to some extent I sympathize with Mr. 7 Turk, Mr. Thomas takes the stand in some context, whether it be 8 to defend this position, some other position or anything else, 9 and I hand him the two memoranda and I say, now, Mr. Thomas, 10 naving read those memoranda, does that refresh your 11 recollection that in fact what occurred at that RAC meeting is 12 what's set forth in those memos? 13 And he says, yes, I do, my recollection is now
'i"_N{)
14 refreshed and that is what occurred. It does seem to me at 15 that point there's very little, from my point of view, need or 16 desire to drag Mr. Bores and Mr. Lazarus up here to essentially 17 adopt their memoranda, which is what I' m interested, obviouuly 18 in getting in the record at this point. 19 I f, on the other hand, Mr. Thomas is handed these 20 memoranda and he says, no, that's not what occurred, what I 21 said occurred in my testimony is what occurred, then I am going 22 to want them. And then the Board is going to have to decide 23 the question. 1 24 So to the extent that al) I' m hearing from brother 25 Turk is an argument that says Mr. Dignan may be somewhat D Heritage Reporting Corporation i (202) 628-4888
fi' 8586 NJ. 1 prernat ure at this juncture because the need rnay go away, I have 2 no problern with the Board -- 3 JUDGE SMITH: How would the need ever go away? I 4 mean how do you envision having Dr. Bores's rnemorandurn Det into S evidence without these people wanting to ask him about it? 6 MR. DIGNAN: Well, I can only speak for myself. I 7 rn ean, i t ' s rny rnot i on that's lying on the table. What's ' going 8 to happen, as I said, you know, a good federal judge once said 9 t o ron, you can put the phone book in front of sornebody and say, , 10 does that refresh your recollection as to what occurred? 11 And if the witness says, yes, that does refresh ray 12 recollection, at that' point, you' ve Dot what you want in () 13 evidence. You may or you rnay not put the phone book in at'that 14 point. 15 If I hand Mr. Thomas the Borus mornorandura and I say, 16 Mr. Th ornas, could you address yourself to paragraphs whatever 17 to whatever, in which this witness talks about the HAC rnenting, 18 do you, having read that, does that refresh your recollection 19 that in fact that correctly records what occurred? 20 And he says, yes, it does, Mr. Dignan. 21 At that point, I would shortcut it by rnarking it and 22 putting it into evidence. I f sornebody want s to then call for a 23 witness because of that, that's okay. 24 JUDGE SMITH: All right, there are two issues 25 involved. i l l Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 { I
f
'g 858'r LJ 1 The issue before un right now is assuming that you --
2 whether, if you want Dr. Dores's t est irnony, is it relevant and 3 is it necessary to a decision within the context of the 4 regulation. 5 We can decide that without involving whether or not 6 you wish to of fer hirn as a witness. 7 MR. DIGNAN: That's true. 8 JUDGE SMITH: And that's what we' re trying to do now. 9 10 MR. DIGNAN: That's true. 11 MR. TURK: I have to say that the cornrnents rnade by 12 Mr. Dignan now are cornments which I have rnade raysel f to Mr. p) 4 13 Dignan and to Mr. Traficonte, I believe, if not Mr. Oleskey, in 14 terras of the need for ray witnesses to appear now. 15 If Mr. Thornas is called agair, or appears again and is 16 asked about the events of the July rneeting, and agrees with 17 these roernoranda, then there's no need for an NRC Staff witness 18 to appear. 19 JUDGE SMITH: Well, that inay very well be. I don' t 20 know about that, but when we take a subpoena like this we raake 21 no j udgroent as to anything else about the case, only that 22 there's a threshold showing of relevance. 23 We rni Dht very well issue a subpoena and then not 24 allow the issuer or the person on whose behalf, the party on 25 whose behalf the subpoena is issued, to even present that D Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 l 1
t
- h. . se 8588 1 witness if it's looked in another-context.
L
-2 MR. DIGNAN: Yes, I' m wondering if what we aren't
.3- down to right now,.Your Honor, in the return day of the 4 subpoena. If I hear Mr. Turk, he is saying at least'some of 5 his agony goes away if the return day in to be at sorne later 6 date, presumably after Mr. Thomas testifies and I satisfy him 7 I' ve still got a reason, or at some time if Mr. Thomas never 8 testifies because I still feel-and press that I need it.
9 It's not -- if I hear hita correctly, that's what we 10 are talking about now is the return day, and I am telling the 11 Board I am not pressinD you for a return day on that subpoena 12 of tomorrow. () 13 . JUDGE SMITH: But it is ripe for us to decide now. 14 MR. DIGNAN: I think it is.on relevancy. 15 JUDGE SMITH: Yes, and I think his testimony is 16 relevant. It's a clastic provision of thu 17 Staff witness rule.
,18 MS. WEISS: May I be heard, Mr. Chairman?
19 JUDGE SMITH: Yes. 20 MR. DIGNAN And I do continue to press on the 21 Lazarun also, Your Honor. I think it's relevant for the same 22 reasons, 23 JUDGE SMITH: Yes, well, see, it is not only 24 relevance, but i h's necessary to a decision, and I think that's 25 the language they use in that paragraph -- s O Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 l 1
T'- 8587 1 MS. WEISS: Special c i rcurnst ances. 2 JUDGE SMITH: -- exceptional n i rcurnst ances. 3 And exceptional circurnstances would be where there is 4 a person who has pr anal knowledge of facts which are strongly 5 relevant and necessary to due process. 6 MS. WEISS: May I be heard? . 7 JUDGE SMITH: Ms. Weiss? 8 MS. WEISS: I want to just state our views as soon as 9 possible on this issue. I arn well aware, having been huru only 10 two days, that this Board has deterrained that it is irnport ant 11 to its decision to know what's happened at the RAC rneet ings. 12 JUDGE SMITH: No, no, we have not rnade that fva 13 det erra i nat i on, 14 We have had a discussion with FEMA as to what their 15 various opt ions rnight be. They can have a naked presumption, 16 conclusion, and it wi11 be D i ven whatever weight it's ont itled 17 to. If they wish to corne in with a supported position, it will 18 be given whatever wei Dht it is entitled to. A naked 19 presumption can rnore easily be rebutted than one that in 20 supported, but we are not raaking any judgroent as to what we 21 require for our record now. 22 We are facilitating the parties in presenting their 23 cases. 24 MS. WEISS: Well, with that qualification, and 25 certainly evidence, testirnony about what happened at the RAC m Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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/' 8590 d
1' meeting is,.at.the threshold, relevant. 2 But we would object to Mr. Dores's speculations about 3' what was in the minds of other members of the RAC and those 4 memorandum are rife with that. I don' t think they are 5 admissible. I think Mr. Dignan well knows that those memoranda 6 are objectionable. 7 JUDGE SMITH: Well, we are not to that point. That's 8 far down the road. 9 MS. WEISS: And the reason I want to state my views 10 is because the consequence in my mind of taking evidence by Mr.. F 11 Bores of what happened at the RAC is to open the door for us to 12 request that wo hear that from the people, the other people who ,
'() 1.' are at the RAC. There are obviously various views on these 14 issues that were discussed and are being discussed on the RAC. .
15 And I want to let the Board know that if it's 16 impor't ant to know for any of these partie7 what happened at the 17 RAC, it is important to hear it -- 18 JUDGE SMITH: Is it important to youY 19 MG, WEISS: Frankly, my view of thin case is what's I- 20 important in the factual evidences whether people can be , i l 21 sheltered, whether people can be protected by evacuation, and 1 l 22 don' t see that the RAC deliberationn have had much to do -- l l 23 JUDGE bMITH: How about the FEMA position? ! 24 M b' . WEISS: -- with those deliberationn. FEMA ! ! 25 position? Yes, the FEMA position in important. I don' t sue Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 ;
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i i that the RAC deliberations have borne rauch at all on the 2 factual issues that I consider critical to this case. 3 But other people have different views and will be 4 raaking dif ferent arDuments. 5 JUDGE SMITH: All right. 6 MR. BACKUS: I' d just like to join in that statement 7 of position expressed by Attorney Weins. It 's - our position, 8 too. 9 JUDGE SMITH: Okay. 10 So I think where we are now is that, if you recall,
- 11 Ms. Weiss, this came up in the context that Mr. Bores was going i
12 to join Mr. Thoraas this af ternoon in an evidentiary l 7^i tg 13 presentation of what happened in last week's or recent RAC 14 roeot i ng. You argue that if he does, i f he's in for one he's in 15 for all. That brought up the question of is the -- have the 16 relevance requirements of the subpoena been met, and have the 17 regulatory requirernents been raet. l 18 We' ve ruled that they have. We have never reached 19 whether or not Mr. Bores should testify concerning previous RAC ! 20 meetings. We are still holding to the narrow area as to which I l l 21 he is Doing to testify today. , i l 22 MS. WEISS: And I think what the Board suggested was i 23 a good suDgestion, and if we designate it as a deposition, F 24 which the Board roay or roay not listen in on, I think that we 25 avoid any problem of havi ng rnade t he rnan a wi t ness and waived Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 h
/~N 859i:
, N 1 any 1ater objections. 2 JUDGE SMITH: I think that that's awkward. I think we 3 ought to go just to an evidentiary hearing, and som. of it 4 might not be as weighty as other parts of it. That will be the 5 decision of the partien, not un. 6 MR. TURK: Given the choice, Your Honor, I don' t nee 7 why a deposition is rnore preferable than just the record rnada 8 right now in front of all parties and the Board as to what 9 happened at that meeting, ct least au far as the Staf f' n 10 witness would be concerned. 11 Although, again, he would like come t irne to put nome 12 notes toDether to summarize his recollection. 13 JUDGE SMITH: Yes. 14 MR. DIGNAN: Again, if I may, referring only to thin 15 1ast meeting. 16 MR. TURK: To this last meeting of January 1988. 17 MR. DIGNAN: Yes, only. That, as I understand it, is 18 all that we are inquiring into, the last one. 19 JUDGE SMITH: Yen. 20 MR. TURK: In that regard I want to say that I$rn not 21 familiar with the case law that Ms. Weiss says she han found 22 which would say that once my witness goes on, he is on for any 23 purpose. 24 MS. WEISS: Oh, no, I did not say that he was on for 25 anything. I said he' n subject to recall, with regard to the O Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
8593 x.) 1 subject matter he han testified to.
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2 JUDGE SMITH: Right. 3 MR. TURK: Well, then that-will depend on how 4 narrowly the subject matter.is defined. 5 JUDGE SMITH: That's right. 6 MR. TURK: And I certainly don' t want to be seen.as 7 waiving at this point an objection I might have to him being 8 examined for any purpose on anything that may have been stated 9 at the RAC meeting. 10 JUDGE SMITH: We also have to remember, in this 11 respect, Ms. Weiss, that Mr. Turk is not affirmatively offering 12 Mr. Dores for any purpose in this evidentiary hearing this p gI 13 afternoon. 14 We' re just trying to figure out, call it a Board 15 session if you wish or whatever, we' re trying to fipure cut 16 what technological or factual bases may have been involved in 17 the most recent RAC meetinD-18 He's not offering him as a witness for any Staff 19 position, and that would be relevant to your argument. 20 MS. WEISS: Well, it would be a news flash if the 21 Staff had a position, but -- 22 JUDGE SMITH: Okay, now, are we ready to go back to ; 23 taking a little bit of evidence today? i 24 MR. OLESKEY: Judge, can we just get some feelinD of , ! 25 the timing of the afternoon, because some of un may go off and l l Heritage Reporting Corporation i (202) 628-4888 r
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2 JUDGE SMITH: All right, let'n get Dr. Mileti out 3 and entertain, if that is the best, here again, we always wish 4 the parties woulo work these things out. And Mr. Backun 5 apparently has a problem with his witness, so that seems to 6- make sense that you go ahead with him and then we will shoot 7 for 3 o' clock to take Dr. Bores and Mr. Thomas. 8 MR. TRAFICONTE: Well, I might be able to even 9 expedite things further. 10 I mentioned in the break Mr. Dignan and I had a brief 11 conversation about how to handle this panel, including Dr. 12 Mileti, at the present juncture, and just uo that the Board O 13 emeeree mee eer eiteetiee' "o ror *""* e t er' *"e annt ic ete' 14 situation. My cross of Dr. Mileti is in major part, and 1 15 would say exclusively, concerned with sheltering of the beach 16 population, of that portion of the populat ion that's not in 17 shelter or in physical shelters at the time that the directive 18 to shelter is given. 19 And I' m not concerned with the areas outside the 20 beach strip, particularly. I understand that he hau given 21 general testimony on sheltering behavior relevant, obviously, 22 to the areas outside the beach strip, but for purposes of my 23 cross-examination, I was going to focus on Dr. Miluti's views 24 on what people on the beach, not in a physical structure, would 25 do in the event that they heard that there was an accident and O-
'a Huritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
1 P 859l) b. 1 they were directed to shelter somewhere, obviously, in the 2 beach strip. 3 That was the point early on, some months ago now or a 4 month ago, in delaying this portion of my cross-examination of 5 Dr. Mileti, because that_was the issue left, in my opinion, 6- left better to the. sheltering panel. 7 Because the Board will recall Mr. Dignan, in response 8 to FEMA' u submission in September, generated this panel.and a; > 9 new "sheltering plan", or a new something that might be less 10 than an official plan, but something ' in response to FEMA' n 11 position on sheltering. That's what this panel in here for. 12 And my interent in Dr. Milet i's test imony in really 13 focused on his contribution to that, call it, new sheltering 14 plan. 15 Now, if'I followed the flow today, and it wasn' t 16 necessarily an easy flow to follow, if I understand Mr. 17 Di gnan' s position, if the FEMA comes back in a week or 10 days 18 and announceu that it's going to change its ponition on 19 adequacy of the plan in general, and in particular on the need l 20 of the Applicant or the State to do anything further with ( 21 regard to preparinD a sheltering plan, wriet her it's an ad hoc l 22 plan, however it's characterized. ' o 23 lt's my understanding, and Mr. Dignan will certainly l l 24 correct me as he's wont to do if I' m wrong, if FEMA comen back 25 and changes its position on general adequacy and the need for a 12) HeritaDe Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 I
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'8590 1 sheltering plan, Mr. Dignan intends to withdraw this_ panel, 2 clone the tent down and there isn' t going to be a "sheltering
-3 plan" in the --
4 MR. DIGNAN: No, not quite_that, Mr. Traficonte, but 5 I don' t think we' re f ar apart. 6 I said that if FEMA changes its position, depending 7 upon the change, the testimony -- 8 MR. TRAFICONTE: Yes. 9 MR. DIGNAN: -- would retailor and it could go no far 10 as being withdrawn. 11 MR. TRAFICONTE: Yes, if the position changed, for 12 example, and FEMA said there in no sheltering in the plan, but () 13 there need not be, either because evacuation is timely or 14 because there simply isn' t going to be adequate shelter -- any 15 number of variations are possible. 16 And of course those variationu and thin in just to 17 reinforce a point that Mr. Oleskey made earlier, those are 18 variations that we are in the position of having to anticipate 19 too. We don' t know what FEMA's pos i t i on' s going to be, and 20 depending on what FEMA says, we are going to have to renpond 21 if they say there in no sheltering or there need not be. That 22 will affect our rebuttal of that position if they change. 23 That's an aside. But the key point remains that 24 there's a likelihood, I believe, if FEMA changen its position 25 we won' t see this panel. I f we don' t see this panel, 1 don' t O Heritage Reporting Corporation { (202) 628-4888
I l l r i 859 1 think there's .sny meaningful point in ray continuinD the croun-2 exarninat ion of Dr. Mileti, since .it's exclusively focused on 3 the sheltering and the behavioral aspects of the sheltering of
-4 the beach population who are otherwise not in shelters.
5 And I just think, and I don' t think Mr. Dignan would 6 disagree with me, that in light of Mr. Backus's desire to have 7 these other witnesses go forward, I don' t see any down side to 8 uirnply dismissing this panel now and when and if they come 9 back, I would pick up with Dr. Mileti this precine point about 10 his behavioral -- 11 MR. DIGNAN: I understood, however, we were down' side 12 before I would do it, so the Board underutands it. 13 Keep in rnind, the panel hasn' t been offered yet. Dr. 14 Mileti in sitting up there off the springboard of a piece of 15 the Applicants' Direct No. 7, if you recall, Mr. Traficonte? 16 MR. TRAFICONTE: Yes, yen. i 17 MR. DIGNAN: If you let, as far as I'rd concerned, if 18 you let Dr. Mileti go now, and I never offer 6 again, you are i 19 not going to get him back -- 20 MR. TRAFICONTE: No, no -- 21 MR. DIGNAN: In other words, I understand you' re 22 prepared to say you' re tbrough with your cronn an it pertains 1 23 to Applicants' Direct No. 7, and what you have to go fror:1 here 24 corden out of the potential -- 25 MR. TRAFICONTE: What ever corden -- _-s HeritaDe ReportinD Corporation (202) 628-4888
'8596 -
bi . x 1 MR. DIGNAN: ~~ App 1 '. cant s' Direct No. G. 2 MR. TRAFICONTE: And the reason why 1 take that 3 position is my cross-examination of Dr. Mileti is directed at 4 the shelterinD of the beach population as it's now put forward' 5 in this Testimony Package No. G. 6 If this disappears and they are not going to plan on 7 sheltering the beach population in a fermal manner, he hasn' t 8 D i van any testimony on the sheltering response of those beach 9 people. 4 10' There's no plan, therefore, there's no behavioral 11 testimony with regard to what those people would do. I' m not 12 goinD to take the time of the Board to cross-exa ination Dr. A (,j 13 Mileti on the sheltering rosponse of those neople outside the 14 beach strip who are i n, eiready in, their own homen, for 15 example. That 's not the point of my cross-examination, t 16 I -- 17 JUDGE SMITH: Okay, would you remind us again, how 18 did it come to pass that you are examining him on this 19 particular subissue right now? 20 MR. TRAFICONTE: It came to pass in the following 21 manner the ETE portion of the case, as the Applicant packaged 22 it, included a behavioral component. I have cross-examined Dr. 23 Mileti at length on portions of that behavioral component. A 24 subportion of it had to do with Dr. M 110t i' s testimony on 25 upontaneous sheltering, on what will happen in the event that Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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1 there is a sheltering directive. It.was not precisely or 2 expressly aimed at the beach population. 3 However, in this package, thic panel's test imony,
- 4. that portion of the sheltering tectimony of Dr. Mileti was S referenced -- was incorporated by *eference.
6 My cross-examination wants to explore, I want to 7 explore, with Dr. Mileti what the beach population will do. If 8 there are going to be representations as to what the beach 9 population would do, because they' re not planning on protecting 10 those people with sheltering, I will withdraw. 11 I mean, I gueas the thrust of Mr. Dignan's point i s, 12 yes, I will withdraw or I will conclude. 13 JUDGE SMITH: But you understand that whatever it , 14 was, Dr. Mileti's direct testimony on the ETE testimony will 15 survive? 16 MR. TRAFICONTE: Yes. 17 And the portion that I' m not crouuing, in essence, is 18 his testimony as to what individuals who are already outside 19 the beach strip, who are in their own homes, would do in the 20 event that they were directed to shelter. That's correct, that 21 would nurvive, I wouldn' t be crovsing that. 22 But I wouldn' t be crossing that today if I continued 23 in any event. 24 JUDGE SMITH: It's your call. He is not going to -- 25 MR. TRAFICONTE: I will say that in light of wh a t ' s
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j I 8600 l [')N 1 developed today, I will not examine Dr. Mileti further. t 2 MR. DIGNAN: And my understanding is then that the l 3 ETE panel in all its glory and in its last vestigo,'as , 4 represcrited by Dr. Mileti, is excused. The ETE panel is. 5 excused. !
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F 6- MR. TRAFICONTE: Yes, yes. i 7 JUDGE SMITH: All right. ! 8 MR. TRAF1 CONTE: Well, okay, that note of finality in , i 9 everyone's sigh there, Just so it's clear, it's excused, that's !
, 10 correct.
f ! 1 11 If we see this panel aDain, and we see Dr. Mileti --
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i i I 12 MR. DIGNAN: That -- incorporated by reference to the f l i-() 13 ETE and you'are open to ask him, of course, you are. f t ! 14 MR. TRAFICONTE: Absolutely, and that is obviouu -- i l 15' MR. DIGNAN: I am -- t 16 JUDGE SMITH: No, no, you have concluded your cross-f l { 17 examination of the ETE panel. [ 18 MR. TRAFICONTE: Yes, that's correct, I ( t 19'
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JUDGE SMITH: Okay. l l 20 MR. TRAF1 CONTE: So we can go to Mr. Backus's l 1 21 witness. 22 (Continued on the next page.) l L 23 ! 24 l 25 ; (~)/ A- ; l I Heritage Reporting Corporation ! (202) 628-4888 l l f i- -- -
l l l l l l l (~T. 860: 4 %.J ' l T317 1 MR. BACKUS: Your Honor, we have to set up a TV and 2 a VCR fot - the exhibit here, so maybe we should take the break 3 and come back early, and we can put them right on, and get on 4 with it. 5 JUDGE SMITH: Okay. Now, is there still any point in 6 trying to have a meetinD as we had requested at the end of the 7 lunch break of the parties to try to work out the presentation 8 of evidence for the balance of the week? 9 MR. DIGNAN: Yes. 10 JUDGE SMITH: Okay. All right, int's break then 11 until 1:15, but the parties report back here at 1:00, and 12 negotiate and work out the presentation for the rest of the () 13 week. 14 MS. WEISS: And you also wanted to talk about which 15 witnesses could be in D.C., or something? 16 JUDGE SMITH: Well, the ~~ 17 MS. WEISS: All right, that's -- 18 JUDGE SMITH: Yes, right. Let's put it this way. 19 Which are desirable to have here in Concord. 20 (Whereupon, at 11:38 a.m., the hearing was recessed, 21 to resume at 1:15 p.m., this same day, Tuesday, January 12, 22 1988.) 23 24 25 O Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
F 1 l 1
HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - DIRECT 860u I 'a 1 1 AFTERNOON SESS I ON l
2 1:16 p.ra. l 3 JUDGE SMITH: Mr. Backus, whenever you are ready. t 4 MR. BACKUS: Oh, all right. 5 JUDGE SMITH: Do you have a third witness? L i 6 Whereupon, I 7 BEVERLY HOLLINGWORTH l 8 ELIZABETH WEINHOLD L 9 MIMI FALLON 10 having been first duly sworn, were called as witnenses herein, 11 and were examined and testified as follows: 12 DIRECT EXAMINATION 13 BY MR. BACKUS: 14 Q Would each of you state your name and address for the 15 record, starting with you, Mrs. Hollingworth? 16 A (Weinhold) My name in Elizabeth Dolly Weinhold. I 17 live at 3 Godfrey Avenue, in Hampton, New Harapshire. 18 A (HollinDworth) l'rn Beverly Hollingworth. I reside 19 at 209 Winnacunnet Road, in Hampton. 20 A (Fallon) I' rn Mrs. Robert Fallon, Mirai Fallon, and 1
. 21 reside at 3 Ocean Drive, Seabrook Deach, New Harapshire, but I 22 1ive in Harnpt on.
23 Q And are the three of you the sponsors of profiled 24 testimony, uix pages, pluu an attachment, entitled Rebuttal 25 Testimony of Mimi Fallon, Beverly Hollingworth and Elizabeth [O Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
r i L ' 860; HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - DIRECT , ! l ('lT l 1 Weinhold on Behalf of the Seacoast Anti-Pollution League on + l 2 Evacuat ion Tirne Est irnaten? ! 3 A (HollinDworth) Yes. } l 4 A (Weinhold) Yes. j '5 A (Fallon) Yes. 6 O And is that testirnony accurate and truthful to the ; 7 best of your knowledge and belief? ! 8 A ( Ho l l i n g wor '.h ) Yes. t ! 9 A (Weinhold) Yes. e i I 10 A (Fallon) Yes. 11 MR. BACKUS: I will now furnish for the reporter and j i 12 for the -- there were a couple of corrections that were rnado on r~s ! (,) 13 thin t est irnony that I have here. So, thank you, Judge Harbour, i i 14 BY MR. BACKUS: l
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15 Q Now, with regard to this test irnony that han just been j 16 handed to the parties, the Board and the reporter, turning i 17 first to you, Ms. Hollingworth, with regard to the figures on i ! 18 Page 5, Question 13, are there any corrections that need to be j r 19 raade ? 20 A (Hollingworth) Yes, there in. l f 21 On Question 5, on the vinibility of the Seabrook I 22 plant. j 23 Q Page 5, Quention 13. l l 24 A (Hollingworth) Yes. The car total numbern have ; l f { 25 changed. They are now a total of 1,768 car - hidden parking i (2) l i l HeritaDe Reporting Corporation ] (202) 628-4888 ( l 5
F l i i l l l HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - DIRECT 8609 l' speces. Tne total has changed from the Hampton Beach area to l a 757, and north of the Hampton Beach Bridge -- I ' m . orry -- l 3 south of the Hampton Bkach BridDe to Mass 1ine in-273. North l l 4 of Winnacunnet Road is i57, which brings the total to 1,768.
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5 G Okay, so the numbers 1664 should ba 1768; in that 6 correct? 7 A (HollinDworth) Right. , 8 JUDGE SMITH: Why do we have -- what na the purpose 9 of the second piece of testimony that you gave us, the second 10 version? 11 MR. D'4CKUS : Well, that was a correct ion that didn't l,2 make it into ',he second piece of testimony. 13 JUDGE SMITH: Okay. 14 MR. PACKUS: This is Question 13, the last -- the 15 next to the last sentence on the answer to Question 13. The 16 tota 1 ta1ly of auch p a r'< i n g faci 1itles should bu 1,766. 17 BY MR. BACKUS: 18 Q Iw that correct, Mu. Hol1ingworth? 19 4 (HollinDworth) Correct. 20 0 N ce , how about the figure in the last sentonce there, 21 in there a correction to that? 22 A (Hollingworth) You. Excuse me, let me look at, my 23 notes. 24 The total -- I' m sorry, I' m not following you. 25 Q The total for the Hcmpton Decch area alone -- FO Heritage 4eporting Corporatton ( 20c.: 628-4888
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1 A (HollinDworth) Yes. l 2 Q -- in identified in' thin tunt'imony. i i
- 3. A (Hollingworth) -730-iu'for the north of the bridge.
4 I f 4 I mean, south of the bridge. It's increased by 12. South of- j i 5 the Hampton Deach BridDe is -- excuse me. Excuse me, I' m i i l j 6 nervoun. i i l'
- 7 The Hat.ipton Beach area has been increased by 12, I 8 which maken it 738. North of the bridge is increased by 24, i i
9 which makes it 273 -- south of the bridge. -l I 10 0 Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. l l 11 A (Hollingworth) South of -- !
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l : l 12 O There in no reference in thin testimony to the j t 13 bridge. i 14 A (Hollingworth) Okay. The total -- you haven' t the ; i 15 documents yet. The total in 1,768. l
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) 16 O Right. I t i 17 A (Hollingworth) In Hampton Beach alone would now be ! i' 18 738. 19 Q 738 should replace the figure 718; in that correct? 2'i A (Hollingworth) yes. 21 Q Okay. Now, with those two chanDen, do any of the ! 22 rest of you have any changen to make to the test imony that's 23 now been offered to the Board and the parties in this profiled ; 24 testimony? i 25 Do you, Mru. Fallon? l l i Heritage Reporting Corporation ! (202) 628-4888 l l 1 I
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i I l I HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - DIRECT 860b l D"'b'
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1 A (Fallon) No, I haven' t. !
- 2. O- Do you, Ms. Weinhold? g 3 A (Weinhold) No, I do-not. [
4 O And you have no further changes? i 5 A (Weinhold) No. ! 6 -Q Okay. Now -- } 7 JUDGE SMITH: Did you point out to the parties the * ,- 8 changes that were in the second version of the testimony? i l 9 MR. BACKUS: Let me do that, because that would be fi l .r' 10 appropriate. l 11 The chanDes that are in the testimony as filed today [
.c 12 over that that was furnished I Quess yesterday would be on Page p
.. s 13 3. There was ir,the original filed testimony a final -- a f
l 14 final nentence on the answer to Question 7 that his is shown'on j t 15 the videotape. That ' s been deleted, because there was an f 16 enclear antecedent. 17 And on the answer to Question 10 on PaDe 4, the last j 18 sentence of Mrs. Fallon's answer, we' ve added a phrase. The )
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19 sentence as originally furnished was, "I think it in important l 20 to keep in mind that this situation occurred before Chernobyl." . I 21 We have added, ... occurred four years before the l t 22 plant was completed and before Chernobyl." l i 23 So those are the changes between the teetimony 24 yesterday and today, j ( 25 MR. BISBEE: Five years? ; i Heritage Reporting Corporation l (202) 628-4888 } t t
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I re s ._ .- . = _ _._4. . . . . . . . .
4 I :i HGLLINGWORTH, WEINMCLD', FALLON - DIRECf 8607 l 1 MR. BACKUS: It says five years. Five yearn, h ! 2 "Five years before the Seabrook i reactor was ~ i 3 completed and before the Chernobyl accident" was - what' n been 4 added. 5 BY MR. BACKUS: ' 6 Q Now, in addition to this profiled testimony, havw 7 you, Ms. Weinhold, and you, Men. Fallon, prepared a videotap'e 8 illustrating certain portidnu of this testimony? 9 A (Fallon) Yes. 10 MR. BACKUS: For the record, copies of that have been 11 furnished to the partion, and throu copion to the reporter. 12 BY MR. BACKUS: . () 13 O Are there any corrections that need to be'made to any 14 portion of that vidactape that you' re aware of, or the audio 15 portion of that videotape, Mrs. Fallon? 16 A (Fallon) Yen, I would like to specifically state 17 that at one point while I' m showing the drive south on Route 18 1-A, instead of mentioning that the plant lien went, I l 19 inadvertontly say it' u sout h because the road was Doing south. 20 That's the one mistake. ! 21 And another time while discussing the fireworks 22 explonion, I say the correct da'e once, but the uncond time I 23 mention it I say August 10, 1987, and it was August 10, 1982. 24 And I d idn' t finiuh thin until Saturday night, and we f 25 didn' t catch it until Monday, these two mistakew, so 1 wanted O Heri t arp Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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,i HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - DIRECT 8600
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1' to state that before we -- 2 Q As we hear and une this videotape, aro we likely to 3 hear any differences in the tone of your' voice as you narrate 4 it? 5 A (Fallon) Yes. Sometimes I am using the microphone on 6 the camera, because I am using pictures and using that 7 microphone. And the runt of the time I have used an external-8 mike and gone over, so it will sound stronge, at some points.
., 9 Q Okay.
10 A (Fallon) But; yo.i know, I just did thin all myself 11 and I am utrictly an amateur. t 12 Q Ckuy.-
-(j 13 MR. BACKUS: At this point, Your Honor, I think I 14 would like to offer into the record of thin proceeding au the 15 testimony of these witnessen the prefiled testimony with the 16 corrections, the two corrections that have been identified.
I 17 JUDGE SMITH: Are there objections? 18 (No response.) 19 JUDGE SMITH: Testimony is received and bound into 20 tne transcript. , 21 (Rebuttal Tentimony of Mimi 28 Fallon, Beverly Hollinuworth , 23 and Elizabeth Weinhold on 24 Behalf of SApL on Evacuation 25 Time Estimaten followss) e D Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 i.
Cl) UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 1 before the ATOMIC SAFETY AND LICENSING BOARD In the Matter of ) Docket No. 50-443-OL
)
PUBLIC SERVICE COMPANY ) OF NEW HAMPSHIRE, et al ) (Offsite Emergency Planning
) Issues)
(Seabrook Station, Unit 1) ) REBUTTAL TESTIMONY OF MIMI PALLON, BEVERLY HOLLINGWORTH AND ELIZABETH WEINHOLD ON BEHALF OF THE SEACOAST ANTI-POLLUTION LEAGUE ON EVACUATION TIME ESTIMATE CONTENTIONS
- 1) Please state your name and legal address.
(Fallon) My name is Mimi Fallon. My mailing address is 3 Ocean Drive, Seabrook, New Hampshire, though my residence is legally part of the political subdivision of the Town of Hampton. I reside at () (Hollingworth) 209 Winnacunnet Road, Hampton, New Hampshire.My name is Beverly Ho (Weinhold) My name is Elizabeth "Dolly" Weinhold. My mailing address is 3 Godfrey Avenue, Hampton, New Hampshire.
- 2) Please state your current activities and your qualifications to testify on this issue.
(Fallon) I am a businesswoman and a mother and grandmother. I have direct personal knowledge of traffic in the beach area because I have spent 32 summers at Hampton Beach. I have been able to observe first hand the traffic problems in the beach area and since 1979 I have been filming traffic problems. I have filmed from the roof deck of my house, which provides an unobstructed view of Hampton Beach looking north, Seabrook Beach and Salisbury Beaches looking south, the Atlantic Ocean to the east and the Seabrook Nuclear Plant and the Hampton Bridge over lA in a westerly direction. I have also done some filming from an airplane and some on the streets. My house is a little less than two miles from the Seabrook plant and is directly on the beach just next to the mouth of Hampton Harbor. (Hollingworth) I am a State Iepresentative representing J District 17, the Towns of Hampton and Hampton Falls and have served in this capacity for four terms of two years each; I am a () motel owner and have been in this business since 1956 and I also run a catering business in the seacoast area. I have been a lifelong resident of the seacoast area and have consequently i
" * * ' ' * ' - - " - - 1 0 e y a g 9g 4
w_ observed and experienced the traffic problems in the beach area for many years. As past President of the Hampton Beach Area Chamber of Ccmmerce, I was involved in efforts to try to resolve traffic problems. In the normal course of my basiness I regularly have to cope with traversing areas of the beach in heavy traffic. (Weinhol?' I am a paralegal secretary and have lived in Hampton cont'nt isly since 1971. I lived in Hampton for certain periods of tint sven prior to 1971. I reside some two to three miles from Hampton Beach and have made almost daily trips to the beach in the summer time either for recreational purposes or to take my children to work. Lioke Pojnts
- 3) Could you describe the means of entry onto Route 51 via Church Street and Highland Avenue and the problems that will be posed?
(Fallon) Churen Street is one of the two main exits out of the main beach area and it is the only means of access onto E.sce - 51, which is also known as the Exeter-Hampton Expressway. Ot'ae r traffic exiting the beach will according to the RERP be rout 0d up Highland Avenue in a direction contrary to which traffic normally flows, will go right on Brown Avence ar.a then have to morp9 onto O~ Church Street. The narrow entry onto Church Street and the merging traffic from Brown Avenue wall both significantly impede the movement of traffic out of the beach area. These narrow streets are inadequate as routes for a major ovacuation.
- 4) hty are these routes not adequate for e' acuation?
(Fallon) It is somctimes impossible for a lcrge truck to make a turn from Route 1A onto either Highland Avenue or Church Street without taking two lanes of traffic to make tne turn. During an evacuation, two lanes of traffic would not be available. Further, just one large vehicle breaking down would totally obatruct the route and there is no place to push vehicles aside. (Hollingworth) The properties abutting Church Street have had to construct a brick wall and steel posts t o prevent vehicles from running into their buildings. This indicatas the potential for a collision causing a serious disruption to evacuating traffic. Visibility of th_e Plant to Evacuees
- 5) There has been the ruggestion in prior testimony that the Seabrook Nuclear Power Plant is not readily visible from Route O 51 and other evacuatien routes. Is this indeed the case?
t [] (Fallon) No. You can see the nuclear plant for more than one mile as you exit the beach area on Route 51. Furthermore, the plant is visible all along Route 1A from the Hampton Beach State Park to Route 286 oxcept when it is occasionally obscured from sight by trees and buildings. Additionally, the plant can be seen when traveling west on Route 286 from Route 1A almost to the trailer park just before Washington Road. These views of the plant are shown on my videotape. They are also highlighted on the attached map, Appendix A. Peak Day
- 6) Based on your knowledge of population influx into the beach area, would aerial overfiights on Saturday capture peak traffic density in the beach area?
(Hollingworth) No. Based on my years of experience as a motel owner and cottage owner and my knowledge of local business community practices, check out tim, for renters of motel rooms and cottages is generally en Faturday at 11 a.m. and no check ins or parking are allowed befora Saturday at 1 p.m. Therefore, the Applicants' aerial overflights were done on the wrong day. Sunday ' is a day of heavier beach occupancy. My inspectien of the parking lot for the Hollingworth Motor Court in the Applicants' aerial p)g (_ photographs showed several open spots in my parking lot. My parking lot is virtually always filled except for during this span of time on Saturdays between check out and check in of renters.
- 7) Based on your observations of traffic in the area, was July 18, 1987 representative of a peak day of the summer? ,
(Fallon) No. The traffic on Sunday, July 19, was considerably heavier. The traffic on Sunday, July 5, 1987 was ' also considerably heavier. Saturday is never the peak day, weather being equal. In e:.11ning 61 years of receipts of an ' operating drugstore, the Sunday receipts were always the largest of the week. L Nichttime Traffic
- 8) Do you agree that there is not heavy traffic into the i beach ares in the evening?
(Hollingworth) No. From .ny observations in working at the Club Casine in the evenings, there are no parking spaces available in the public parking lots because of attendance at the band concerts, fireworks and shows at the Club Casino among other things. I have sometimes observed police cruisers driving on the boardwalks to get to the scenes of accidents because traffic is so () bad that they can't get there otherwiso. (Fallon) Traffic is stopped on the P;mpton-Seabrook bridge even in the evenings ca.21 about midnight on Wednesday, rriday, Saturday and Sunday evenings when the weather is good and sometimes on other nights as well.
- . _v
_4 (] ID99Apacitatip_p of Vehicles Do you agree that there would be very few cars out of 9) commission due to breakdown and other factors? (Hollingworth) No. One major factot not being given sufficient consideration is the issue of gasoline supply. Cars idling in traffic for hours are going to run out of gas and there are only three small gas stations in the beach area, all on Route 1A. Often when I have gone to these gas stations I have found them sold out of their gasoline supplies. (Fellon) Every summer I observe a number of accidents on the Hampton Bridge. Traffic gets totally stopped up and it takes a considerable amount of time to clear the bridge because traffic has to be backed off to allow emergency vehicles on. Human B?havior
- 10) Do you believe that the public will not panic in the event of a radiological emergency?
(Hollingworth) No, I do not believe that. On August 10, 1982, there was an explosion at a fireworks factory adjacent to the Seabrook Nuclear Power Plant. Many of my motel / hotel guests
\ returned from the beach in alarm and were trying to get their
{s/ families together to exit the area quickly. Some women were crying and people wero generally in a panic state. I had a great deal of difficulty convincing the people : hat there was no nuclear fuel at the Seabrook site and that there had not been a nuclear accident. It took a great deal of effort on my part to get a "aone call through to the police to get an accurate account of what happened. (Fallon) I, too, Jo not believe that I the public will refrain have some videotape from panic in a radiological emergency. I heard on the police footage of the fireworks factory explosion. radio at the time that the Seabrook Fire Department needed help since pecple vero driving on both lanet out Route 286 and were passing the fire truck. Since that incident, I have talked to several people about it, including the person who was on duty as the Seabrook Police Dispatcher during the incident and they described the situation as absolute pandemonium. I think it is important to keep in mind that this situation occurred five years before the Seabrook Unit 3 was completed and before the Chernobyl incident. (Hollinoworth) Also, on the Labor Day weekend in 1954, there was a riot involving between 3,000 and 10,000 youths. The riot 4 O
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i
; started at approximately 7:30 p.m. on Sunday night.
Police from Dover, Newmarket, Portsmouth, Manchester and Concord were called in to assist. Further, New Hampshire State Police and 100 Maine State Police were called in. At 11:30 p.m., the New Hampshire National Guard came in to assist. The riot was not brought under control until 3:00 a.m. even though there had been advance warning that it would occur. I can recall another incident of rioting related to e concert at the Club Casino involving young people on the beach. The business people in the community have an ongoing concern about congregations of young people in the beach area. I am concerned about the behavior of the many young people who frequent the beach area during an evacuation.
- 11) Do you think early closure of the bench before the declaration of a general evacuation would be practicable strategy?
(Hollingworth) Absolutely not. I am a permanent resident and as soon as I had an inkling that something was wrong at the nuclear plant, I would send my employees out of the area and I would leave myself because I would know that I would want to be on the roads as soon as possible. If people see the traffic exiting the area, I am (, ) thers sure o(Fallon) will pick up and leave as well. yehicle Count Issues
- 12) Are there a lot of unmarked (undelineated) parking spaces in the beach area?
(Hollingworth) Most public parking lots are unlined, for example, the Club Casino lot and the Glade Path parking lot and most of the town-owned lots.
- 13) Do you agree with Mr. Derman's testimony at TR 6043 that
! there are not many carports and garages in the beach area? f (Hollingworth) No. I do not. I supervised four people who did counts of the garages, carports and parking spaces under hotels and motels. These parking facilities would for the most l part not be visible through aerial photography. The area in which this count of cars was conducted was in the narrow strip of l beach f rom the Massachusetts line to Odiorne Point in the North. The total tally of such parking facilities was 1,664. The total for the Hampton Eeach area alone was 718.
- 14) Do you agree that the parking lots in the beach area are never totally filled?
O-L (Hollingworth) ho. I do not agree. The lots are almost always filled on a weekend, particularly on Sunday. I have had l people offer me $25 to park in a space in my motel lot.
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~6-i 15) Is it reasonable to assume that traffic is freeflowing on I-957 ,
, (Weinhold) No, it is not because I have videotaped traffic on I-95 during the summer where it is backed up for many miles.
On July 18 and 19, 1987 I videotaped traffic from the overpass of I-95 at Towle Farm Road in Hampton,-which is about one mile from the toll booth. I observed that traffic was severely congested and backed up for a number of miles. I also videotaped backed up t~'ffic on I-95 on July 25, August 1 and August 23, 1987. On August 23, I observed very heavy traffic from Exit 5 on the Maine Turnpike as I traveled from Old Orchard Beach back to Hampton, prior to my videotaping. Earlier on Friday, July 3, 1987 I observed traffic backed up in a southerly direction on I-95 as far es the eye could see as I was driving cn Route 107 in Seabrook over the I-95 overpass. I then took a turn onto Stard Road, which runs roughly parallel to I-95 and drove north. I could very easily view the stopped traffic on Route 95. After leaving Stard Road, I went right to the Route 84 overpass and got out of the car to get a better view of the backed up traffic. I then proceeded along other Hampton Falls backroads where I reached the Route 88 overpass. I again I continued to O stopped the car and viewed the backed up traf fic. travel over the backroads of Hampt reached the Towle Farm Road overpass, where I again viewed the stopped traffic. I thrn proceeded to Exeter Road whereupon I viewed the congestion at the Hampton Toll Booth area. What was a
- great surprise to me was that I could see no rapid movement of traffic once the cars paid their tolls. I decided to see what was happening at the other end of the toll area, so I proceeded along 101D to the overpass in North Hampton. I was astonished to see that traffic was still backed up as far north as I could view.
- 16) Does that conclude your testimony?
(Fallon) Yes. I (Hollingworth) Yes. (Weinhold) Yes. O
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b HOLLINGWORTH,,WEINHOLD, FALLON - DIRECT 8609 1 MR. BACKUS: And at this point preparatory to i l' J. 2 offering the videotape into the record as a SAPL exhibit, I' d 3 like to direct the witnesses to go ahead and play the 4 videotape. 5 (Videotape shown.) 6 THE WITNESS: (Fallon) The last section on 7 Interstate 95 is the work of Dolly Weinhold. This area map 8 shown the evacuation routen out of the beach area. .They are 9 all two-lane. This is Route 1-A Doing north through Seabrook 10 Beach, part of Hampton Beach, crossing the drawbridge over the 11 Hampton River, and going on to the main area of Hampton Beach. 12 This in Church Street which in the normal - exit road () 13 from the beach area. At about this point it becomes a little 14 bit beyond the water tower, Route 51, sometimen called the 15 Hampton Expressway. This is two-lane road going went to Route 16 1 and on to Interstate 93. 17 This is Route 1 Doing nouth, Route 95 going south. 18 The only other road going out of the beach in Route 1-A which 19 in this area there are four lanen, and Route 1-A coming up to 20 Join it and mer9e at 286. This is a two-lane road, the only 21 other main exit road Doing to 95, 495 and 1. 22 The map that shown you Church Street, which in three-23 tenths. of a mile 90100 to the water tower, and Highland, which 24 in two-tenthu of a mile, going over to Brown Avenue and toward 25 the water tower. O Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 l
L HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - DIRECT 8610
, N"T J 1 Mr. Lieberman has said that you could get the people 2 off the beach area to thin-point in six-plun hours on a peak I
t 3 uummer day. 4 This in another aerial view of the name shot. That's 5 Lhurch Street going to the water tower. And thin in Highland 6 Avenue Doing in an abnormal direction. It's usually one-way 7 toward the beach, over Brown Ave., and to the water tower. 8 Now let's Do to the Atlantic Ocean. We' re lookinD 9 north on Route 1-A. We' re going to swing around and see the 10 two lanes coming' south on Route 1-A. We are'in the area that 11 you have to cross these two lanes of traffic to get to the 12 opening at Church Street, the main exit from Hampton Beach. Three-tenths of a mile from thin are, past the water
) 13 14 tower is the beginning of the Hampton Expreusway where Mr.
15 Lieberman sayu he could get the traffic in six-plus hours on a 16 peak nummer day. 17 This is Hi Dhland Ave. going in an abnormal direction 18 toward the water tower two-tenths of a mile away. 19 As we approach Brown Ave., we' re Doing to make a 20 right and we' re now approaching Church Street. And when we 21 turn left here, you will be Da2inD in the distance at the 22 beginning of the Hampton Beach Expressway. 23 This in traffic coming on to the same street again at 24 the Church Street entrance. r.317 25 (Continued on next page.)
- O I Heritage Reporting Corporation l (202) 628-4888
_ . . - - - . . - - . . . - - - ---_ _----._ __..-._ _. -- - _ _ n [- I l i i ? UD HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - DIRECT 861 -
- T318 1 Hands that have put out to protect it.
2 Little paint there on the wall. i 3 Thiu is the Tido Mill Bridge in Routu S1, the Harepton ; i l 4 Expressway. This is another choko point where there would not l 5 l d I j 5 be a place to push a truck or a bus out of the way because it ; i i 6 is only two-lane bridge. It would be a very difficult place to l 7 have an accident, and could be considered one of the taajor , f j 8 choko points on the evacuation routen. ! I i 9 This in another choko point going along 51. Fifty- l l i 10 one crossen Route 1. The people frorn the Town of Harnpton will ! 11 be corning south on Route 1 to at ternpt to got up on to St. They f
- 12 will rnorge huru with those people corning north frorn Harnpton [
i 13 Falls at about this point. They will Do around this rotary 1 i i 14 actually goinD eaut toward the plant, go under $1, and a t t eropt l .f i 15 to get back up on to Si and head wout. l 16 Frorn ray personal observations on weekendu, thin 4 ! ! 17 Harnpton rotary in nortnally t ied up tryin0 to get on to 51. i i i ) 18 This is the roajor choke point at Harnpt on Beach, and I l e l 3 i
) 19 have direct personal knowledge about this bradue. Thin is ;
l i 20 Route 1-A bridge, which in a drawbridge over the Harnpton River, i } ! ] 21 I 1ive down here at Beckraan Poi nt , and I have a clear , 3 , j 22 unobstructed view at all t i r.1on o f thin bridge. { } } L 23 In fact, the bridge in very i rn port ant to our f arni l y. [ j 24 It's kind of t he barordet er. If we look at the briduo and see I 25 any carn utopped in either direction, we know that we inunt ! p i ! j Heritage Reporting Corporation l j (202) 628-4888 l c f
HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - DIRECT 8610: 1 either walk to the family businuss across the bridge, or ride a ' i 2 bicycle on weekendu, or nometimes during the week on eveninOn 3 when it's very crowded for fireworks and other events. i . i 4 I even, when I did the videotaping of the traffic,
- i 5 had to walk across the bridge carrying the camera. It was the ;
6 only way I could get there eanily. Otherwise, it meann an hour
- 7 and a half trip between this point and up here at the beach,
. 8 which is usually a five-minute drive. 9 The bridge also has many, many accidents during the i 10 summer. Because it is only two-lane and there is no place to [ t ; ] 11 push a car if there is an accident, it causes quite a bit of i 12 problem. I hear the sirens because the sounds travel easily [ () 13 acrous the water, and at night I see the blue liD hts flashing, i 14 but there are several accidents every weekend, and it causes l 15 much consternation as they have to back the traffic off, they j I ! 16 have to block off the roads in either direction to get the 17 paramedics there and to get the wenckers to pull them off. , 18 One of the reasons that this bridge in uuch a major l 19 choke point is the fact that on both uides of the bridge Route ! 20 1-A in those places there' u a four-lane road, and they have to ! f 21 merDe down to a two-lane road to cross the river. And so that l i ; 22 is why there in such a major tie-up when they get to the l j 23 bridge. 24 Now we' re goinD to realize that I am a real amateur i [ 25 at this, and we' re going to have a glitch here, and I hope you 1 l l Heritage Reporting Corporation 5 (202) 628-4888 F [ 1
HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - DIRECT 861 3 1 will excuse me. It just shown that I am really an amateur, 2 white-haired lady in tennin.uhoes. 3 This in an area of this bridDe also that we had 4 forgotten to mention where many boatu go out every day, and at 5 timen there are probably 450 people or more out in the ocean, 6 and their.wiveu and children are back there waiting for them l 7 with their car keyn to head back home after a good or a bad day ; i 8 of fishinD out there in the Atlantic Ocean. 9 They go in and out at various times during the day. I 10 They go out at 1:00 for the second trip. Some of them are all $ 11 day trips, but there are a lot of them out there. I
; 12 .Here we are back on 286, the only other major exit J
13 road out, which in a two-lane road. This in the Blackwater
)
I 14 Rivur bridge. This in another choke point area. It's a very 15 narrow bridge just beyond Brown's Lobster Place there, and 16 there is absolutely no room to puuh a car in either direction, , 17 or a bus, or a truck. It would have to be pushed over the i 4 18 side and into the water. 4 T 1 19 And as you can see, we' re on 286, and we' re about to , i ! 20 go west. And an you Do wout and get up to the Seabrook- l ]
, 21 Salisbury line, there in enother railroad bridge which has the :-
+ f f 22 name problem. There in absolutely no place to push a car, or a [ ! [ ( 23 truck, or a bus. It is a very narrow bridge in Seabrook at the i a 24 Massachusette state line. , l 25 This in an area map again which shown the relation of f l l [(E) ! l i Heritage Reporting Corporation ! ! (202) 628-4888 i i !
/] HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - DIRECT 6616 V ,
1 the Seabrook Nuclear Power Plant and the areas around it. Thin 2 is the plant, and this is where I live, and it'u about 1. 9 3 railun t rorn the plant to ray house. 4 On Page 6719 of the testirnony, Mr. Flynn asked Mr. 5 L i e berrnan, "Now, when the vehiclon paus the water tower, thin 6 in utill ensentfally no further frorn the plant than they were 7 when they got i n, when they started the trip; is that correct?" 8 Mr. Lieberrnan says, "No, they are further, a half-9 ra i l e further." 10 Mr. Flynn: "You have driven these roads, have you 11 not?" 1c Mr. L i e b e r ra a n : "Yes."
/ 13 "Then you would aDree with rn e , " said Mr. Flynn, "that 14 cars on Route 51 have an unobstructed view of the plant?"
15 Mr. Lieberraan naid, "It raay well be. There are no 16 large structures or forests between it. It's all u wara p. I 17 raysel f have not noticed it." 18 And it would probably be a rn i l e and five-tenths or t 19 s i x-t ent hs between the plant and the people on the bridge, and 20 the drive frorn thin area to 95 heading south in exactly six 21 rnilen. Of the six ra i l e n , you have a clear view of the Seabrook 22 Nuclear Power P1 ant of 3.1 of those six rn i l e n. And at al1 23 t i rno u laaving the Harnpton Beach evacuation area, you are always 24 at least two roiles f rorn the plant, a 1ittle bit enore at surne 25 points on 286, but you Get back as you swing towardu, again a t Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 i m . _ , _
r f HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - DIRECT 8Gib f < 1 about two mileu. The closest point again in probably the ] . a bridge area and the Seabrook Nuclear Power Plant. f f 3 For those people that are goinD north on Route i get t
- 4. on to this expressway, they actually neo the plant from a much 5 closer angle, from here to here. They sue it as they go around !
G this way, and then come back around this way, they neun the 7 plant, and this is the way they go out west. 8 On page G721 of the testimony Mr. Flynn asked Mr. l k l 9 Lieberman, "You would agree with me that cars on Route 51 have 10 an unobutructed view of the plant?" ! i-11 Mr. Lieberman: "It may well be. I myself have not , 12 noticed it. They would have to utick their headu out the .I f 13 window and look back, which is probably not something that they f l 14 would be doing." .; ? : 15 An I took these tapen for one and a half milen, I was r 16 looking out the side window, not looking back, because I wan l 17 riding directly parallel to the plant. 18 Now we' re looking south and we' re heading on Route L l 19 1-A on the six-mile drive out toward Rout e 1 and Incerstate 95. 20 We are on the approachus to the Hampton River bridge. For this ; F 21 drive out to 95 and 495, it's a six-mile ride out to those ; I l 22 roaan. For 3.1 of those milen you have a clear view of the j 23 Seabrook Nuclear Power Plant, f l 24 We are now heading due south on Houte 1-A toward the ( l 25 Maunachuunttu line and Route 286, which is the only other major i f 1 Heritage Reporting Corporation k l (202) 628-4888 8 e i
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HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - DIRECT 8616 . 3 exit road out of Hampton Beach area. ( 2 We' re now on the- bridge crouning the Hampton River. ; 3 This in the point where'you're probably closest to the plant au 4 you exit the Hampton Beach area. r S Now we' re approaching - some property that Public 6' Service owns. This in part of Seabrook, New Hampshire. That 7 area out in front at low tide is a favorite place for clammern. 8 We' re still heading south on Route 1-A toward Route . 9 286 and the Mausachusetts state'line. We are approaching Poor ; 10 Steve's which hau been designated by Stone & Webster an.a ; il shelter. I know from personal experience that from that screen 12 in porch you have a clear view of the Seabrook Nuclear Power O is at e*. -
- i 14 Now we' re just about to turn the corner. As we do, 1 !
15 have saved you the horror of watching the turn. We' re going g 16 around the corner and we' re heading due went on 286. We have ! L 17 merged with those coming north from Salisbury Beuch at the l l 18 Mass. line at 286, and both lanes are now heading in a sinD1e l 1 i 19 lano. This in right at Brown' u. This in the Black River. I ; i
- 20 showed you the brid De beforn from the aerial photograph. We' re [
i , ! 21 now on the bridge over the black Water River. ' 1 22 And as we' re heading due west, we noe the plant out the 23 right-hand window. And again I am videotaping it. It's just 24 i outnide holdinD the camera to the window of the car as the 4 l 25 drive parallels the plant. I [ l Heritage ReportinD Corporation i (202) 628-4888 i i t
- s ;
a HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - DIRECT 8617 i 1 So as I said, this is a six-mile drive and for 3.1 2 rdiles of the drive up to 495, you have a view of the power 3 plant.
'4 Very shortly on this road, on 286, you will be in- [
5 Massachusetts.
- f. This is a view of the people cominD north on Route 1 7 heading up to the rotary that we discussed before, the people g i
8 from Hampton Falls, and if any people from Seabrook decided to' 9 go this way, they would be trying to get to the Hampton i 10 Expressway. And as you do, you are very close to the plant and 11 you actually as you get on to the rotary head due east before l 12 you make the tur n and actually go under Route 51. 1 13 Now we' re e up on the rotary. Thoso cominD north from
- 14 Hampton Falls and then those who have come south on Route 1 are '
! 15 not in the rotary heading due east, and they' re going to make h r a 16 the turn and go toward Hampton, the Exeter Express. ; ! 17 1987. It was because of these pictures it was ;
- 18 decided that this was a peak day of '87. It was taken some i
l 19 time between the hours of 12:00 and 1:30. I' m not exactly sure 20 what time they took the pictures on Route 51. l l 21 That's about a full view of the Applicants' picture, f l 22 and I' m going to show you various close up so that you can 23 actually see the number of cars on the road. 24 The area of 51 just past the Tide Mill Bridue coming 2 25 in toward Hampton Beach. You ueo a few cars on the way coming i1 l Heritage Reporting Corporation
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g. l [ } i HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - DIRECT 6618 f '1 in.there, and this in the road that geen down into the beach. l: 2 This in one-way into the beach. The cars in thiu'particular l I 3 lane are in the ridh t-hand lane because they are Doing to turn ! l l 4 right on Brown Ave. The cars on the other lane, on the left- : 1 1 5 hand lane, are going to go into Highland Avenue and proceed out 6 t'o Route 1-A. [
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7 This shows you a close up of the area that I.was i i 8 speaking about coming in here, some people coming on Brown Ave. l I 9 over this way and into Hampton, to the main beach to Ashworth j t 10 Ave. The rent of the street uplitu off this way and comen in j l 11 Highland Avenue, in past the Ashworth Hotel. i I 12 As you can nee, this picture was taken, as I said, j 13 nome time between 11:00 and 1:30, and the road doesn' t seem 14 extremely crowded. I' m now going to show you a picture that / I 4 15 was taken on a summer Sunday in 1982, and show you the ! 16 comparison of a picture taken on a Sunday morning at 11:10. I i 17 These picturou I took from the air, and you can [ f !, 18 clearly sue the cars parked all along the road there. And as i l 19 we swing around, you' l l even have a better view. These t 20 picturen were taken in 1*J82 on a Sunday morning at ten after } t P 21 eleven, au I said before. (i 22 The door was off the plane, and I wau hanging the f i 23 camera out the plane so we could get shotu of the cars parked 24 along Route 31. There are many of them au you can neo that are { i 25 parked on all sides of the road illeDally on the breakdown ! L i Heritage Reporting Corporation ( (202) 628-4888 [
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7.____. j' I i r l (' HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - DIRECT- 861' l l l l !. i lane. This breakdown lane in the lane that you' re supposed to ; s i 2 shove a car in case there in an accident on the evacuation j 3 route. As you can see, and I' m sorry it's not as clear an I' d ! . I 4 like it to-be, but there are busen and trucks and cars parked ! . I l 5 in both directions all the way out 51. l ! i i G The original of this was sent to the District Court l l 7 of Appeals in Washington, and that's why this is not as clear . I I i > l 8 as it should be. This is a copy of a copy I' m afraid, and by 1 9 the time you see your copy it might not be no clear. But l J l l 10 that's the traf fic coming in that Sunday morning all the way i 11 frore the Exeter-Manchester area at 11:10. f la The other photo that they showed you on Saturday ; i 13 nhowed no traffic coming in 51. This photo was taken on a f) f 14 Sunday, July 5, 1987. As I say, Sundays are the peak days of 15 the week, and also obviously the peak days in the nummer taken i 16 from my house across the Hampton River, j 17 This parkinD lot is parked almost up to the nidewalk f 18 in contrast to the Applicants' picture that shown the lot only [ i 19 three-quarters full on a Saturday. Thiu is Saturday, July 18th j i 20 from my home at 1:57 p. m. } l 21 Same shot, the next day, July 19, 1987, at almost the i ! 22 nam. time by coincidence. l l 23 Following thin uhot, we' re going to go into my } ( 24 traffic jam that lanted more than seven houru, a viductape I L E316 25 have of a traffic jam on July 19, 1987. - l t Heritage Reporting Corporation [ j (202) 628-4888 l 1 \ s
F HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - DIRECT 8620 ' 1 The people coming out either go south on Route 1-A 2 of the state parking lot or they go north on Route 1-A heading it 3 into Hampton Beach. Thoue are the 'peopio corning out of the 4 state park and they are heading north. Gorno people apparent ly 5 are going right over the grasu to go north on route 1-A on a 6 Sunday afternoon in July. 7 Route 1-A splita into two parts at this area. Thiu 8 in_one-way for two lanen, that is one-way coming south on 9 Ashworth Ave., I don' t know, we are going a little bit fast 10 here, but we will get back to norrnal speed soon I hope. 11 but anyway that in north on Route 1- A, and that in 12 the Bridge Markat there, the little bit you une in the left of () 13 the screen, and this is a street that is going over toward the 14 ocean right out of Route 1-A. 15 And these are the people coming frorn the bridge 16 north, in the lefthand side of the picture and attempting to go 17 south on the righthand side of the pict ure. That in the other 18 side of the Bridge Market. 19 The other part of Route 1-A, which they call in 20 Harnpton Beach, Ashworth Avenue, and they come south on that 21 road to Det to the bridge. 22 VOICE: Can I ask you a question? 23 Does what you are doing have anything to do with 24 traffic flown that relaten to evacuation? 25 (Inaudible.) Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
M HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - DIRECT 862
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i VOICE: Oh, God bloon you. 2 That in wondorful. Oh, that is wonderful. 3 THE WITNESS (Fallon): Do you livo right here, you 6 are in that motel? 5 VOICE: Next door, right. 6 THE WITNESS (Fallon): Okay, so you know what it is 7 like? 8 VOICE: Of courne. I have been there for 24 years. 9 We are not going to evacuate this week and they know 10 that but this is wonderful because here in the concrete 11 ovidence. The conuidoration in that I think that reanonable 12 people will conclude or agree that this in the traffic flow on f) 13 a pleasant normal Sunday whern people are in good npiritu, the 14 sun is uhiningI what in it going to be like, let's uno our 15 imaginations to imagine what it is going to be like in a panic 16 situation? 17 Now, there aro -- 18 (Street noises.) 19 THE WITNESS (Fallon): On Page 6802, of the recross, 20 Mr. Lieberman was asked about the influx of traffic and he nays 21 that it generally dries up between 12:30 and 1:30 and then 20 there is a not egresn. That doesn' t rnean there aren' t 23 additional cars coming i n, there are, but those who are exiting 24 out numbur those who corno i n, subsequent to 2:00 p rn. 2b This was his testimony on Page 6802. Again, thau in D Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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4 HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - DIRECT OG2a { {' 1 the traffic headinD north on Route 1 - A, and there you see some 2 of the traffic coming south on the other side. 3 Again, that in a picture go:ng north on Route 1- A, 4 and now thin in a picture going south on Houte 1-A, and,those , 5 are cars utill coming out of'the state bathhouse parking area 6 and are about to go further along the bridge. i 9 t 7 These people are what we call the day tripperu, the ; 8 percentage is very high of the carn you have seen in thin 9 traffic jam of ours, of what we call people that come for the 10 day, the day trippers. l [ 11 The people who live in the beach area, and I can r
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12 upeak from experience, stay home au much as they can on Sundays ( () 13 in the nummer, so they don' t get involved and that those i 14 working at the beach area, also do the name.
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! 15 This picture was taken over at the Diburro's i l 16 Supermarket at the corner of Hooksett Street and Route 1-A, i 17 that is looking north aDain, toward the bridDe utill looking ; la toward the bridge. , L i 19 And that is looking nouth, age:in as I said at 20 Diburro's Supermarket. The day tripperu leaving Hampton Beach. l 1 t 21 (Noise of traffic on videotape.) 22 THE WITNESS (Fallon): -- hired a limousine that has 1 j 23 Dotten stuck in traffic, and it is 7:54 there is a limo driver f i I j 24 getting back in. i
; 25 (Noine of traffic on videotape.)
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.14 HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - DIRECT 8623 1 THE WITNESS (Fallon): For out- Sun Valley dinner in 2 ?982, thiu is a social organization of thu houseu on the 3 Seabrook side of the Hempton Rivor, I wan putting together nomu 4 video.picturen of aerial photography to show at thu dinnor 5 meeting previous to the dinner.
6 .And I had the camera sut up on the roof dock and the 7 microphone off because I was taking views of the area and as.I 8 was watening, I hoard an explosion and at the time the camera 9 wasn' t on so I put it on and ran down to listen to the police 10 radio and'this -- thin is one of the exploutons whoro you uue 11 the mushroom is rapidly ascending; it looks like it uwallowed 12 up the helicopter. And as it goon, the wind in blowing it over 13 more toward the derricks, and because there was a trernundous 14 wind that day, it is sort of dissipating already. 15 If I had been up on that deck, I would have taken the 1G camera out of that zoom and brought it back and you would be 17 able to see a little bit rnore of it. Nevurtheless, it lu a 18 unique uight. 19 And next is a scene I am going to show you of what 20 the plant looked like on August the 10, 1987. You can see what 21 the rest of the construction area actually looked like. 22 Those concerned about avacuation planning for the 23 area around the nuclear power plant, Dale Vincent han that 24 story. 25 VOICE: The fireworks factory explouton that killed O I Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
HOLLINGWOPTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON ~ DIRECT 862^ 1 two peopire and critically burned throu otnorn sent a white, 2 raushroorn cloud of smoke into the air. Sinco the factory is 3 adjacent to the north gate of the Seabrook plant, on Route 1 in 4 Goabrook, the urnoko roup over the plant. 5 Today, the beach scene was peaceful but the ucene was 6 quite different Tuesday afternoon according to Seabrook 7 resident, Karen Manis who was there. 8 VOICE (Manis): It looked like a nuclear accidwnt at i 9 the beach and everyone j urnped up and panicked and ntarted to 10 run horne. And I did, too. 11 VOICC: A resident of the Sun Valley area between 12 Route 1-A and the ocean had a video carnura handy. Mirai Fallor 13 hurried to the roof deck after the explosion shook her 14 waterfront h orno. 15 VOICE (Fallon): Oh, I concider Sun Valley between 16 the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea. The only way out for un is 17 into the ocean or toward the plant which would be having a 18 problorn and I wau horrified when I saw that white cloud 19 roush roorni ng up becauno it retninded rne of only one thing. 20 VOICE: This t irno the rnuuhroorn cloud that roso over 21 the Seabrook Nucipar Pcwer P1 ant was the recult of tha 22 fireworku factory explenton. 23 But the rocctton on the beach and the unsuing traffic 24 J arn increased the conce,*n of thoun who quest oned that an 25 effec 1;2ve evacuation plan is ponsible for an accident at the 1 Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
L l' l' T; HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - DIRf.CT 86EU " I b 1 nuclear power plant once it is in operation. I l 2 At the Seabrook Plant, Dale Vincent , Newsline 9. u 3: THE WITNESS (Fallon): We have he e the Applicants' 4 photo of Route 1-A at the' area of the rnerging ,3f 28G and Route 5 1-A. 6 And if you look at it and especially as we look in a y 7 second closer, at closer shots, you will see that it shows.very few cars on the road.-The Applicant told us that this was a
- peak surnrner day in 1987; there are very few cars along this 10 road.
11 And this is corning up and around the bend toward the 12 area that Hooksett Street is in, ,just corning up toward Hooksett 13 Street and as you can see, there are very few cars. This is a 19 picture taken at 1240 on the af ternoon on the sarna road, July 15 4, 1980, and rny son drove rne as I videotaped the parking along 16 Route 1-1 frorn the Massachusetts lire north bo Portsrnouth. 17 Those cars are all parked in the breakdown lane in r 10 illegal parking places. 19 On the left that in Poor Steve's which you saw in 20 some of the other tapes. Just uti11 continuing north on Route 21 1-A. On too left is a place that was not open and a lot of 22 people parked there any how. As we corne up we are still corni ng 23 to that >-a r t right, place right now. It in an old ice crearn 24 stand that was not open. It is now a houun. 25 Here is the plant, just briefly in the distanc?. But s LD Heritage 'le port i ng Corporation o (202) 628-4888 r
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"T HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - DIRECT 862( ,
(V . 1 on both sides of the road, in the breakdown l ane, there is 2 traffic parked on both sides of.the cad.
-3 We are approachinD the Hampton Beach Bridge at the 4- moment'. Now, this is the stato parking lot and on the 5 Applicants' photos on the peak Saturday pictures it was only 6 half full. That was parked right up to the road. Obviously 7 there was some kind of excitement back there, at that scene.
8 This is approaching the North Beach area, they are 9 parked across any kind of a white line. They are actually in 10 one of the driving lanes parked all along there. 11 This is still going north on Route -A. This is 12 approaching the bond at Little Boar's Hnad and they are also () 13 parked on the lefthand side, on the righthand side all in 14 illegal parking places. 15 This is rounding the bend at Fuller's, right Lefore 16 Atlantic Ave. I have never, ever seen cars parked up here. It 17 is absolutely no parking. Theye are signs everywhere but there 18 were cars parked. 19 There is a no parking siDn. E.0 (Continued on the next page.) 21 22 23 24 25 O l Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 828-0C68 i
/'~i HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - DIRECT 8627
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T320 1 There they are, parked all along the side of the 2 road. That bus is parked illegally. . There's another one up 3 there. That area is for Rye residents only, no obviously the 4 buses are parked illegally. Just that one little area there is 5 for Rye residentu. They have to have a tag on their car. p 6 Now we' re uoing north through Rye Beach and still on 7 Route 1-A. l 8 You' re approaching an area where there is a 1 9 restaurant and it used to be a very famous restaurant called 10 Rye on the Rocks. Still proceeding north. This is at Wallis 11 Sands State Park, but it's interesting to note that across the 12 road that's all illegal parkinD, and they' re just jammed in re eee re e-O ta *"ere- '"ie ie 11 111ea 1 n rximo. 1"ex e,*"e 14 There are few pull-ins that you may pull i n, but those cars are 15 absolutely out on the road. 16 Still not quite to the Portsmouth line. 17 THE WITilESS: (Weinhold) This is Saturday, July 18, 18 1987, at 11:30 a.m. It is cloudy and overcast. I' m at the 19 Towle Farm Road Bridge overpass in Hampton. 4 20 This in at 12:30 on July 18., 1987. I am again at the 21 Towle Farm Roati Bridge overpass in Hampton. 22 My name is Elizabeth Dolly Weirshold. 23 This is July 19, 1987, It in 12:30 in the afternoon. 24 I am at the Tov:le Farm Road Bridge overpass in Hampton, and I 25 am looking north at traffic in I-95. l ! Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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i w p HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON~~ DIRECT - 8620
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1 It is sti11. July 19, 1967, and I arn looking at i' , a tt .2f fic on I-95. I arn at the Towle Farrn Road Dridge overpass 3 in Harnpton. t 4 I arn now looking at the traf fic corning frorn the i 5 south. I- arn st ill at the Towle Farrn Road Bridge overpass. The 6 state liquor store is the '.ed building on the right-hand side
'7 of the screen. I arn once again looking north at traffic.
8 This is now July 25, 1987, 12:20 p.rn. It is cloudy 9 and overcast. I arn once again on the Towle Farrn Road Dridge 10 overpass lookinD at I-95 traf fic corninD frorn the south heading 11 north. 12 1 arn st il l looking south at traffic. It is July 25, T' 13 1987. The New harnpshire state liquor store i-a on the right-14 hand sidec 15 This in August 1, 1907, at a ppro x i rnat e l y 11 : 45 a. rn. 16 I arn on Towle Farrn Road BridDe overpass looking at the I-95 17 traffic. I arn looking north towards Porturnouth. 18 I arn now looking at the I-95 traffic frorn Route 80 in 19 Harnpton Falls near Drinkwater Road. I arn looking north. 20 Now I arn lookinD south at t raf fic corning frorn 21 Scalrock area. It is approximatoly 1:00 p . rn . on August 1, 22 1937. 23 This is Sunday, August 23, 1987, at 6 : 30 p rn. I 24 observed this traffic as I traveled south frorn Exit 5 of the I' 25 rnai n turnpike. This picture is taken at the Post Road - North
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Vn i i r' i j(~} HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - DIRECT 8629 I <5s' . p i Hampton overpass at the Sagamore Golf Courne area. I am L +- 2 looking north at traffic coming from Portsmouth. , I l 3 I am now at the 101-D overpass in' North Hampton. [ l- 4 THE WITNESS: (Fallon) We have now reached the 5 conclusion of Mimi Fallon's videotape. The second in }. 6 Interstate 95 wa contributed by Dolly Weinhold. I i j , 7 Th_<nk you. , i-8 JUDGE EMITH: Off the record, Kent. i ! 9 (Discussion off the record.) ; i i 10 MR. BACKUS: If I could, I have just a couple of , i > l
- -11 questions reDarding the exhibit before offening it and f
12 tendering the' panel for such cross-examination au may be ! l t () '13 desired. 14 BY MR. BACKUC: 1 l ! s 15 Q Mrs. Fallon, on certain portions of that tape there 4 l' 16 is right on the screen a date and time. Is that the date and 1 17' time in question in which those pictures are being taken? l f 18 A (Fallon) Absolutely. j 19 Q Okay, and you mentioned several times in the , t 20 narrative that you were in the area of Hooksett Street. ! 21 Perhaps with reference to the map that's attached to your j l 22 teutimony, could you just point out where Hooksett Stret is? l f 23 A (Fallon) Yes. Hooksett Street is just south of the f i 24 bridge. It's south of the Hampton River Bridge, and it ; I 25 intersects Route 1-A and goes over to the residential area in j 4 f Heritage Reporting Corporation l (202) 628-4888 4 l
l. HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FOLLON - DIRECT 8630 1 which I live, part of Seabrook and H.' 9 0n Beach. And at that 2 point there's: a traffic light. 3 Q Okay. 4 A (Fallon) So that rni g ht help identify it. 5 Q Okay. Mrs. Weinhold, you as you role.$r there tonk 6 the pictures showing the traffi on I-95 that were taken on 7 varioun daten in the nutorner of 1987? i 8 A (Weinhold) Yes. 9 Q And with reference to the rnap, if you could just 10 point out where thoue locations were, and perhaps relate thern 11 to the toll booth on I-95. 12 A (Weinhold) Well, the rnap that is in the exhibit has g)- t 13- blacked out the region, so can I just show thin raap, and rnaybe + 14 do nornething with that ? 15 Q Yeu. 16' First of al1 for the record, the rnap that we've
, 17 attached to your t ent irnony in a copy of a portion of thin raap 18 you are now holding up, is that right?
19 A (Weinhold) You, it in. i 20 Q Okay. With that understanding, would you junt point 21 out for the judDen tnd t,he partieu? 22 4 (Weinhold) Yes. as soon an I ca$ fand it. 23 Okay, thin to the Massachusetts 1 i ne, ver arook, and 24 this in where I was at the Towle Farrn I?oari 13 ridge overpass on
, . 25 I-95. The toll booth in up here, a l tnout a raile up the roar' at
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_ - . - _ _ . - - - - - - -. - - . . . . . ~ - - - . = - _ . - - - . . . . . . . , { [ : i (. i l ( HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - DIRECT 863J l 4 L]/ l 1 sorno point. 2 O Okay. I think the next one's were taken frorn Towle i l 3 Farrn Road overpass? l l 4 A 'Weinhold) Yes, Towle Farrn Road overpass where I 1. ! 5 took roont of them. r 6 Q 411 right. s 1 ! 7 A (Weinhold) The ones that I took on Sunday, the 23rd, ! l
- 8 wan way up here at North Harnpton on Post Road, and then down j j
9 here a. 105-D, and the tol1 booth is in thin area.
- 10 0 Okay.
!. 11 A ( We i nt.s ) d ) So these were the two points that I took f ( .l 12 that last bit of traffic. l / 13 Q And ,just to locate it for the reeved, the first 14 reference you' ve rnade, the Pont Road, about how far i- . . . - ; f 15 away frorn the t ol ?. s? 7 l 16 A (Weinholy? 1 ';hink three to f our rai les. I ' rn not 17 nure to toll you the truth. l [ 18 Q Joo' re not sure? Okay. 19 A (Weinhold! I' d have to look at the diagro. i 20 Abcut three and a h a i f ra i l r_m. l l i i 21 MR. BACKUS: Okay. I thznk & '. a t ' s ali I have. I l 22 would like to offer au a liAPL er.h i bit the videotape which han 23 been shown in the hearing, whi;h c:opien have been furnished. , ( 24 JUDGE GMITH: E xcuse tr.e, Mr. 1.<e c k u n . i ! 25 I don' t recall th 4 you had these witnenueu' self j !O ( i ! l Heritcqe Reporting Corporation l l (20 5 628-48$8 ) ' I _ . - -. - .- ... - - - , . - .- - ... .. .~....- - - - .-.. .~. . ~. - - . . . - . . . . - . - . .
L 77 HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALL Od - 01 RECT 663i: Ll L 1 authenticating tape, or have they ac:t t ally ,estified that --
'2 MR. BACKUS: Oh, okay.
3 JUDGE SMITH: -- st aterntnt s on it are true, and ' 4 that -- n 5 MR. BACKUS: Okay, let rne do t h at . That's probably a ( G good idea. 7 BY MR. BACKUS: 8 Q Mrs. Fallon, the first portion of that videotape up 9 to the point where we are seeing pictures of I-95, did you 10 personally take those pictures that we saw on that videotape? 11 A (Fallon) Yes, I did. 12 O And were they taken on the dates and show the places 13 indicated? 14 A (Fallon) Yes, they were. 15 0 And do you believe that's an accurate representation 16 of what it purports to show on those dates and places? 17 A (Fallon) Yes, I do. 18 0 Okay. Mrs. Weinhold -- 19 JUDGE SMITH: And the statements you rnade in the tape 20 are true? 21 THE WITNELS: (Fallon) Yes. 22 BY MR. BACKUS: 23 O Mrs. Weinhold, did yot, personally take tt'e videotapes 24 showing I-95 at the latter portion of that videotape we just 25 saw? 10 P ( 4 l Heritage Repor ing Corporation (202) d,28--4 808 l _ _ . __. . _ _ _ _ _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ _ _ ___ _ _- a
HULLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALI.ON - DIRECT 863; ("; V
- 1 A (Weinhold) Certair.ly Jid.
2 O And were those piccures taken on the t i.nies and places 3 and fron1 the 1ocations that you nient ioned? 4 A (Weinhold) Yes, they were.
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5 Q And do you believe t ey reos.mably accurately portray G the conditionn shown therein? 7 A (Weinhold) They accurately portray theni. 8 0 Okay. And the statenientu you niade in describing the i , 9 t i nie and placeu are true st at enient s ? t. 10 A (Weinhold) Yes, they are. 11 MR. BACKUS Okav, witti titat I would offor the ( 12 videotape as an exhibit. [-) u 13 ;UDGE SMITH: The t f.r1es, places and ti. 2 evente that s. 14 happened sure true as you saw theni. , 15 THE WITNESS: (Weinhold) Yes, sir. [ 16 JUDGE SMITH: Are there objections?
- 17 (No responne.)
18 JUDGE SMITH: All right, the tape will be received 19 then as SAPL Exhibit 7, I believe it in. 20 (T he videot ape. referred to 21 was niarked for identification 22 as SAPL Exh No. 7 and 23 received in i Jence.) 24 MR. BACHUS: I believe the witnennen ari, available 2S for exantinat ion. O Heritage RepcrtinD Corporation (202) 628-4888 0 4 - -_ - _ -_---_ _ - - - I
r HOLLinGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - CROSS 863' . 1 JUDGE SMITH: Mr. Dignan? ', 2 MR. DIGNAN: Thank you, Your Honor. 3 CROSS-EXAMINATIDN 4 DY MR. DIGNAN: 1 5 Q M3. Fallon, t h r' first choke point you nhowed in the 6 tape, and if I mindescribe it, please tell ra e , wau a bri.dge 7 over Route 51. In it over the Curdinal River, did you say? d A ( F a l l or.) No, I thought the first choke point that I ll 9 roention was Church St re et . 10 0 O k r. y , vas there one on Route S1? 11 ., O sFallon) The ane on Route 51 in the Tide Mill. l 12 Q Tide Mill Road? 13 A (Fallon) I call it the Tide Mill Bridge. 14 0 Thank you. 15 Is there some construction going on down in that ar ec, 16 now? 17 A (Fallon) Yes, there in. ( 18 Q Wh a t ' s the purpose of that const ruct io.#, if you kne7? 19 R (Fallon) I really don' t know, except that they are 4 20 putting in a new bridge, and right now there's a t eroporary Eli bridge that we go over. 22 O They' re going to widen it to four lanes? 23 A (Fallon) have no idea. 24 0 I uee. 25 A (Fallon) And I have talku. to n orne people in the IQ Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 I i l 1
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/~T HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - CROSS 863b Q
1 legislature,.and perhaps Representative Hollingworth could tell 2 un-more, but she -- 3 Q Are they going to widen t to four lanes? 4 A (Hollingworth) Not that I' m aware- of. . 5 Q Have y3u inquired, Representative? 6 A (Hollingworth) I did originally. I had the 7 newspapers inquire into what was happening when 51 was being i 8 done, because.I had previously been on public works an a
.9 representative and served on that committee, and I did not 10 remember any legislation pausing our committee that would allow 11 for the construction of that happening. So I did inquire of my 0
12 local newspapern, and they assured me that it wan just a
)_ 13 reconstet: tion taping out a curve ovi 101-51, or what nome call 14 Exeter-Hampton Expressway, and that was just straightening out 15 that curve and putting in a new bridge.
16' l Whether that has chanDed since, I' m not aware of. i 17 Q vou inquired through your newspaper. You didn' t l l 18 inquire in your official capacity of the people doing the work, 19 I take it. 20 A (Hollingworth) Well, I had served on the committee, 21 at.d was not aware of it, se I felt that my inquiriny for the 22 newspacer to go deeper would perhaps be more effective than 23 where I had served on a committee that should have been aware 24 of it and di dn' t. t RS D What newnpaper did you make the inquiry of? Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - CROSS 663b ['}
.LJ 1 A (Hollingworth) I made it to the.Hampton Union and 2 to the Atlantic News. .
3 Q And they reported back to you? 4 A (Hollingworth) That it was taking the curve out. 5 Q Also, Ms. Fallon, you showed a scene on Route 51 on a 6 Sunday rnorning with a lot of cars in a parking lot that was 7 fairly near, if I' m correct, down the road from that bridge 8 we' ve just been discussing. 9 Is that parking lot used for any particular thinD on-10 Sunday mornings that you' re aware of ? 11 A (Fallon) Excuse me? 12 O You showed on Route $1 a Sunday morning, and you
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13 indicated that there was a parkinD lot full of cars, and you 14 showed a great deal of parking down in an area just beyond the 15 bridge we' ve been talking about. 16 A (Fallon) Oh, I didn' t -- I d idn' t mean to refer to 17 that specific parking lot at all. That's probably what you' re 18 discuusing, the St. Patrick's lot. 19 G Yeah, it's St. Patrick's Church is there, isn' t it? 20 A (Fallon) Yes, but I wasn' t talking about that. 21 That's a legal parking lot. I was discussing the illegal 22 people that were parking along the perimeter of the road in the 23 breakdown lanes. 24 Q Do you think any of those illegal parkers were at St. 25 Patrick's? Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 ) l l
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1 A -(Fallon) No. I go to.St. Patrick's Church on and 2 off, and believe me, they . don' t park that far. Theretare 3 masses,.you know, every half-hour. 4 Q I' m Boston Irish. I guess we'. re not as good at --
'5 A (Fallon) l' I l tell'you what. There are three --
6 (LauDhter. 7 A (Fallon) There are two masses going on at'the same 8 time, believe me, and they don' t park thatifar away. They park
- 9. as far as the water tower. There's a little illeDal parking i
10 place there. 11 Q Okay. 12 A (Fallon) But you don' t park that far out, and buses. () 13 A (Hollingworth) Could I elaborate on that, if- I 14 could? 15 Q Oh, certainly. 16 A (Hollingworth) Well, the church had since offered a 17 part of that parkinD lot, because it wasn' t used to. capacity, 18 and they have given that over to the Town of Hampton to use as : 19 a public lot. 20 0 Church attendance is falling off at St. Pat r i ck' s? > 21 A (Hollingworth) Exactly. 22 O Okay. Ms. Weinhold, your various pictures of Route 23 95, you describe the distance in each case from the toll plaza. 24 Did you investigate as to whether the toll plaza was the reason l l 25 for the ttaffic . jam? 1 ( Heritage Reporting Corporation l (202) 628-4888 l t l
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l i 4 [' HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - CROSS 8033 .
, L.s) 1 A (Weinhold) You mean did I go further than Towle Farm )
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3 Q No, did you ever try to figure out whether it -- was ]
; 4 the Jam being caused, au far an you know, by the toll plaza? l t
l l 5 A (Weinhold) On the several occasions where I did go , G further than the toll plaza, there was slow moving traffic at 7 the other end, but not clear movinD traffic. ?
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8 Q In other words, the traffic picks up after you get by 1 9 the toll plaza, right? I 10 A (Weinhold) Not much from what I observed, the days 1 i i i 11 observed there was -- ! ] i
- j. 12 Q What days were those? (
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) 13 A (Weinhold) August 1st, the 18th, when I went beyond 14 also to 101-D.
15 Q Now let me understand what you did. You took your ( l 16 shots from the bridge there, in that right? j l 17 A (Wainhold) Yes. t , t l 18 O Of the traffic which was headed for the toll plaza? ! l 19 4 (Weinhold) Yes, coming from -- I l 20 Q And than you got in your car, and joined the traffic j
.i 21 utream and went through the toll plaza yourself. In that what ,
l l 22 you did? 5 l l 23 A (Weinhold) No, I did not. P 24 Q Oh. j t 25 A (Weinhold) No, 1 back -- no, I never would have j 1 l Heritage ReportinD Corporation ; l ' (202) 628-4888 l 1 L _ _ _ _ ____ i
HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - CROSS ' 863':r [ 1 Dotten throuDh there for days.
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2' O You don' t rnean. that, do you? 3 A (Weinhold) No, I' ll strike -- eliminate. 4 Q Okay. 5 A (Weinhold) . No, there are back roads in Hernpton. I 6 went through the back rounds of Harnpton, went on to -- looked 7 at the traffic on Exeter Road, then went the other way to 101-D 8 and took videos of that portion. 9 MR. DIGNANs. That's all I have, Your Honor. 10 JUDGE SMITH: That's all you have, Mr. Dignan? 11 MR. DIGNAN: That's all I t. ave, Your Honor, yes. 12 JUDGE SMITH: Mr. Bisbeu?
-( ) 13 MR. BISBEE: I have no questions.
14 JUDGE SMITH: Mr. Turk? 15 MR. TURK: I do, Your Honor. 16 JUDGE SMITH: Okay. 17 CROSS-EXAMINATION 18 BY MR. TURK: 19 Q Mernbers of the panel, my narne is Sherwin Turk. I arn f 20 an attorney with the NRC ntaff. I have uorno quest ions I would i 21 like to ask you concerning the written test irnony first, and i 22 then I'd like to ask you a few questions ubout the videotape. 23 At Page 3 of the written tent irnony in Ms. 24 Hollingworth'n answer to Question No. 6, there i n a st at ernent 25 rnade that, "Sunday in a day of heavier beach occupancy." l l Heritage ReportinD Corporation
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l HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - CROSS. 8640 1 And I take it when jou discuss occupancy.here, 2 you' re talking about the rental occupancies, housinD occupancy 3 and rental locations? 4 A (Hollingworth) What I mean is that there are more 5 people on the beach. I did not mean motel occupancy. I mean 6 in fact that there are more people on the beach, because check-7 in time on a Saturday is not, in some case, until late 8 afternoon, so therefore those people who are coming into 9 Hampton is traditionally a Saturday-to-Saturday accommodations 10 in all the cabins and cottages, and a good deal of the hotels 11 and motels, that's still the case. 12 So people who are checking in for the week would not 13 be checking in until late afternoon on a Saturday, so you would 14 find that it would be either late Saturday or all day Sunday. 15 once those people have checked into the rooms. 16 Q Well, 1 guess my question is really one where I see a 17 little bit of confusion as to which number we' re talking about. 18 1 still perceive that what you are talking about here 19 is the number of people who are checked into motels. 20 A (Hollingworth) No, I' m talking about the numbers of 21 people on the beach. I should have used the word "occupancy", 22 but that is true that Sunday would be a heavier day perhaps 23 because people are already in their rooms. If you were going 24 to say, you know, people haven' t got in for the whole day on 2S Saturday, because Saturday being the traditional Heritage ReportinD Corporation (202) 628-4888 l l
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1 check-in/ check-out day, there would be more people having left. 2 O Have you ever studied the automatic traffic recorder 3 data for the Hampton or Seabrook Beach areas? 4 A (Hollingworth) Well, I haven' t studied t h ern, but I 5 have seen them, and I was shocked _at some t irne to find those 6 data out there at the t imes when t' Hampton Beach was under 7 construction. I recall seeing the counter out there near 8 Hampton Beach, and there was a sign on 93 sayinu, do not use l 9 this road because, you know, the bridge is closed, and go to 10 Route 51 and come in 101 to the beach section. So that Hampton 11 Beach coming over the bridge had been closed, so you know I am 12 aware-that they are there. I haven' t studied the data. () 13 Q You are aware that there is a traffic counter south j 14 of the Hampton Harbor Bridge on 1-A? l 15 A (Hollingworth) I have seen counters at several 16 different locations. Whether they were put out there by the 17 State of New Hampshire or whether they were put out there by 18 other people, I couldn' t tell you, but I have seen thern on 19 several different occasions. 20 Q Have you ever reviewed the data collected frorn those, 21 or any of those a ut ornat i c traffic recorder? 22 A (Hollingworth) No, but I can tell you from ray years 23 of experience that I do know that check-out and check-in tirne 24 is what it is, and I did a survey or people who roorned in 25 hotels and rnotels and checked with them. Check-out t irne on O Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
T~T HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - CROSG 864a LJ 1 Saturdays is -- I only found one party that it was after 12:00,
-2 and in rnoct canen it's not allowed -- check in is not allowed 3 until after 1:00, 2:00 or 3:00 in corne canes.
4 Q Would you be surprised to learn that the autornat ic 5 traffic recorder data show that Saturday is a day.in which 6 there is haavier vehicle usage of the roadu, heavier than , 7 Sunday? 8 A (Hollingworth) You know, again I can only say the 9 traffic counter is -- when I naw thern where they were. I don' t 10 necessarily know that they -- in fact, I have seen t hern in 11 places where construction on the roads is being done, and you 12 know, I' rn not sure what they say. I'in not an expert on --
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13 0 You don' t know what the traffic data say? 14 A (Hollingworth) No. 15 0 Aluo, Representative Hollingworth, in the answer to 16 Question No. 8 concerning niDht t irne traffic, you dincunu the 17 heavy arnount of attendance in beach areau in the evenings, and 18 in particular you indicate that there are bad concerts, 19 fireworku and shown at the club casino, an1ong other things. 20 And I take it traffic in heavy during such eventu? 21 A (Hollingworth) Yes, it is. 22 In fact, last n urntner the club casino had, I think it 23 was 88 shows, and the parkinD lot was often full behind the 24 club casino, and also in the parking lot across the utreet. My 25 rnot a l is directly across the street f rorn a parking lot, and I Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
/'g - HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - CROSS 864~ , V-1 have observed that lot to be filled in the eveninD as well.
- 2. Q .There are some things goinD on in traffic during 3 those times of events, aren' t there,.that may be a little 4 different from what goes on during the daytime?
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5 For instance, do you get larDe -- would there be 6 large numbers of people simply cruising at night? 7 A (Hollingworth) There are some. Certainly, there is 8 some of that. But, you know, there are people who. attend the 9 casino complex. There are people who attend the fireworks. 10 There are people who come to the beach to shop and eat in the 11 restaurants. There is a great deal of traffic, and I have la observed it first hand. 13 Q Do you also tend to get the phenomena I witnessed out 14 on the West Coastal states, and that is where teenagers uirnply 15 drive throuDh in their cars looking to attract persons of the 16 opposite sex? 17 A (Hollingworth) Th at ' s true, and we' ve had a problem, 18 the Chamber has, tried to get the state police to corne in and 19 help us patrol that pro b l ern. We have tried to have the traffic 20 rooved of f of the boulevard because they pick nome of the prime 21 locations to park, and they obstruct the views of the hotels 22 because they are parked there at night, and they open their 23 trunku and blare their radios, and we have tried to discourage 24 those young people from using the prirne areas. 25 Last year we had an experirnent in doing that, and l 1 Heritage Reporting Corporation l (202) 628-4888
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l HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - CROSS 864 < + 1 unfortunately part-way through the season there wau nome 2 presuures brought on that they had to move the cars, the youths 3 that-were using those' front-spots down to othar locations. _E320 4, (Continued on next page.) 5 6 (. l l i ! 8-9 10 11 12 14 15 16 17 m 18 19 2C 21 22 23 ) 24 1 1 25
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HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON-- CROSS 864U {~1 x-) 1 O' Wan any particular t irne of day involved when those
~2 types of things go on?
3 A. (Hollingworth) With youth? 4 0 Yuu. 5 A (Hollingworth) Well, certainly in the evening G preseason there is a lot of youth, Saturdays, Sundays, you 7 know, it depends. You know young people to Det a chance to get G out, they get out. 9 .Q Let me turn to one other thing also. In your 10 test imony for norne reason the quent ions I have in thin early 11 part of the test irnony relate to yours rather than the other la witnesson' statements. ( 13 At Page 4 of your testimony the answer to Question 14 No. 9, you discuss the problera of carn idling in traffic for a 15 nurnber of hours, and you express the belief that you are going 16 to have vehiclen running out of gasoline. 17 Now, in the tape that we witnenned today I naw some 18 fairly stagnant traffic, and I annuma those traffic jams went 19 on for a nuraber of hours. In that your understanding as well? 20 A (Hollingwo,th) They do quite often. 21 Q Do you have cars running out of gasoline in those 22 traffic jams? 23 A (HollinDworth) Yes, we do. In fact, right in front k 24 of ray root el, I often have people come in and ask to use a phone 25 that they have to call Dave's Garage because they have -- or 10 Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
i l t HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - CROSS- 86M , { 1 or.e of the garages because they have run out of gas. 2 And'I have had that experience more than once or 3 twice in the season. And'that is right in front of my place, 4 so I can' t tell you what happens down the street. 5 Q How often does that happen? 6 A (Hollingworth) I just said, I' ve had the occurrence , 7 of that happening once or twice in a season, just in front of 8 my location. 9 Q And what do those individuals do with their cars in 10 the meantime? 11 A (Hollingworth) They leave them where they can and 12 they call and ask Dave to come and bring them a thing of gas, 1( ) 13 or usually Dave says that he can' t afford to have anybody out 14 there and he tells them to walk to the garage and pick up their 15 own can. 16 Q And when you say they leave their vehicles where they 17 can. Sometimes they pull into your lot? 18 A (Hollingworth) Occasionally if we have space for 19 them. 20 Q Otherwise they stay on the uhoulder or something like 21 that? 22 A (Hollingworth) If there is rooin on the shoulder. 23 They sometimeu push them on to the sidewalk. 24 Q I see. 25 Now, aluo let me move on to the answers to Question O Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 ) l
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7'x 1_) HOLLINGWORTH,'WEINHOLD, FALLON - CROSG 8647 1 No. 10, and this is to Ms. Fallon. t l_ 2 There is a discussion in your testimony, with respect { ! 3 to your belief that panic might occur in a radiological , 4' emergency. i i. [ 5 And you discuss the fireworks factory explosion. Do : i 6 you know at the time of that occurrence, whether there was neus a 7 disseminated to the public at the time of that occurrence, ! i j 8 which would have let those people know what was happening? .t
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P 9 'A (Fallon) No. 4 ! ! 10 As far as I know, when I heard the event happen, as I t i ' j_ 11 nay, I turned on the camera, and I had no-idea what had ! ! 12 happened, because I knew logically that the plant wasn' t ; a -
*ff g j 13 complete and I kept thinking, it can't be Seabrook.
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14 But then you know, you see it and none of us knew i i 15 that there wau a fireworks factory there. We were astounded to f 16 find out that there was a fireworks factory next to a nuclear l f I i 17 power plant. i l I i l 18 Q How soon after the erplosion did you learn what had e l > l 19 happened? ) 20 A (Fallon) I went immediately to a police radio -- tuat l l l l l 21 is what happened. I started the camera and I was not there ; I ! ! 22 when the second explosion happened. I went to the police , i l 23 radio, to try and find out what had happened. For years we had l 24 been hearing explosions over at Seabrook because they were l l 25 dynamiting, no most of un that lived in the area were pretty : l l Heritage ReportinD Corporation i (202) 628-4888 ! t
HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - CROSS 8640 l l '1 used to hearing explosions. 2 So when'this happened, we would hear the explosions, 3 we would never see a puff of smoke. So I ran down an'd 1. turned 4 on the police radio and on the police radio I heard utter 5 pandemonium. I couldn' t believe it. The Hampton paramedics 6 came acrous the bridge, they went south. And I learned ?ater 7 the reason they camet south was because Route 1 was completely 8 blocked off and people were running across the road and.they 9 were all excited. 10 And I talked to many people in that area that thouDht 11 it was the plant that had exploded. I kept listening to the 12 police radio. I heard them say, the Seabrook person running () 13 the firetruck said, we need police help. We can' t get to the- < 14 utene of the accident, the people are rushinD out 286 and 15 they' re passing us. We can' t get there. We need police help. 16 Q Did you ever hear on the police radio that there had 17 been an explosion at the fireworks factory? 18 A (Falloni I had no, no, at that t i rne, they said -- 19 Q When did you first -- 20 A (Fallon) They said they had to get out to Route 1. 21 O When did you first hear that is what had happened? 22 A (Fallon) I' rn norry, I think after they talked about 23 they needed help getting out to Route 1, I found out it was the 24 fireworks factory. 25 And at that t i rne, I was astounded. O Heritage ReportinD Corporation (202) 628-4888
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1 Q Excuse me, how soon, I am norry, I dots' t mean to cut 2 you off. 3 A (Fallon) It happened about 2:25 in the afternoon, as 4 I later reconstructed it. Because after it happened, I went up 5 to my roof deck, pluGDed the microphone in and said what I had 6 just heard, mentioned it, no I would remember it on the police 7 radio and it went right onto my videotape. 8 The videotape might have gone for about five minutes 9 before you see the puff, so I went back to the beginning and 10 repeated what I had heard on the police radio. It was probably 11 five minutes after I had listened to the police radio that I 12 exactly found out what had happened, it had been a fireworks 13 factory and I still couldn' t believe it at the time. 14 Q How soon after the explosion did you learn that there 15 had been an explosion at the fireworku factory? 16 A (Fallon) probably five minuten afterwards. 17 Q And you Dot that information from the police radio? 18 A (Fallon) From the police radio. 19 Q Do you know when that type of information was first 20 disclosed on radio channels for which the public han accenu? 21 A (Fallon) I have no idea. Channel 5 happened, we had 22 been interviewed that afternoon, Representative Hollingworth 23 and myself, -- who was that Dal's name? 24 A (HollinDworth) Barbara Warnick. 25 A (Fallon) Barbara Warteick from Channel 5, and they D Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 f l
HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - CROGS 8650 1 were up in the helicopter and in fact, when I first heard the s 2- explosion, I thought that the helicopter had crashed and they 3 had been killed. That was my first_ thought after I, you know, 4 after I realized it wasn' t Seabrook. 5 .And I later watched Channel 5, Channel 4, and Channel 6- 7 all had things, but Channel 5 actually had shots from the air 7 of the explosion on the ground. They were there when it t 8 happened. They had been taking aerial photos of the Seabrook 9 Nuclear Power Plant, I believe. 10 Because she left us and I went home and I was taking 11 these pictures for our little dinner meeting at Sun Valley when 12 all of this happened. () 13 A (Hollingworth) If I can elaborate on that about Ms. 14 Warnick, she told us that she had an '"oointment at Seabrook 15 site and that she was going there after her interview with us. 16 So I am just verifying what Ms. Fallon has said about 17 that she did go to Seabrook because she was going to interview. 18 I don' t know whether she ever -- I am sure she probably didn' t 19 that day -- get to her interview. 20 0 As I recall, part of the newu report which was 21 captured on the videotape concerning the firework explosion? 22 A (Fallons Yes 23 Q Had an interview with someone who was at the beach. 24 A (Fallon) That is c. *cet. 25 0 And as I recall that pornon who was interviewed O Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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- 1. stated that what she did in response to hearing the noise of 2 the explosion was to take her family and leave t he beach area 3 or something to --
4 A (Fallon) No, I think that is a -- I think you are 5 mistaken from what she said. She said she went home, because 6 she lived at the beach, so she went home. 7 O All right. 8 Do you have any way of knowinD when people who had 9 been ut the beach finally found out that it was an explosion at 10 the fireworks factory? l 11 A (Fallon) Oh, I think probably that the people that 12 left the beach in their cars didn' t find out until they got 13 home that night and watched the evening news, I am sure, 14 because that is when the first real news reports carried it on 15 the six o' clock news, I suppose. 16 O Otherwise you are not aware that the -- 17 A (Fallon) Oh, the radio stations probably had it, but 18 the video -- 19 Q Do you know that they did? 20 A (Fallon) Excuse me? 21 Q Do you know that they did? 22 A (Fallon) I am not positive, I am nure they must. ! 23 I didn' t fir d out anybody was killed until the six 24 o' clock news, that anybody was dead. 25 Q Do you recall hearing any messages, any announcements
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i' HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - CROSS 8652: 1 on the radio or on television before the evening news that 2 would have let the people know what had happened? 1 3 A (Fallon) I can' t , I cannot swear to that, I just 4 don' t know. 5 Q Your answer is that you have no recollection? 6 A (Fallon) I h ave no recollect ion. 7 Q Is that right? , 8 A (Fallon) Yes. 9 I do know that I videotaped, I have got, you know, 10 all the evening news broadcast I videotaped because I was 11 curious to find out the extent of what had happened. 12 Q I' d like to turn to the videotape that we watched () 13 this afternoon. 14 And as I recall there was some discussion on the 15 videotape, the eudio track, about the length of time that the 16 traffic jams had been observed.
.17 A (Fallon) Yes, you.
18 Q And what was the length of time? 19 A (Fallon) Well, I started watching the traffic jams 20 before what you saw on the tape. I think the first shot that 1 21 showed cominD out of the state park was at 3:07. But I was on 22 the beach videotapinD people before that on both beaches. And 23 no to get over there, I was involved in the traffic. I went 24 over to the state park lot in a car because I was carrying -- 1 25 have two different kinds of carneras. The kind that you seu up Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
6 1 4 HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - CROSS 8653 1 there '; hat is in one section and then I had another one that 2 had a larger zoom and.I was trying to get the full range of the 3 beach. And it was_the old kind with the battery pack over it,- 4 and I.just was not in shape to walk across the bridge carrying 5 both, so we drove. n-G And the traffic was quite bad at that t i ene. _ The 7 shot, I think, that I showed you of the two beaches on thu 18th I 8 and 19th from my house were taken at 1:57 and 1:59 and.I then 9 left to go over to_the state park to take the pictures of the JO crowds en the beach. i And as I went over I was invol.ved in quite a bit of ' 11 12 traffic. I d idn' t take the pictures at that specific timo
?3 because I was tryinD to get which camera ready that I was Doing
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14 to use over thutw ca the beach. I had bcth camerau with me. 15 Aid when I came out of the lot there, an hour later, 16 it was 3:07 aiid I was using the new camera th't dates the time 17 and you could see exactly what time it was when we came out of 18 the parhing lot. i 19 But the whole thinD, I started that day at 1 :00 an, 20 finisked af ter 9:00 o' clock. I think it wau 9:20.
^1 Q As I recall --
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22 (Fallon) No, 2:00, exeuso me. I ara sorry? (Fallon) Excuse me.
-m O I am sorry?
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l 1 A (Fallon) I started around a little bit before 2, and l 2 I finished at 9:20. l l ! 3 0 .What I recall from the audio track was that there was , i 4 . l 4 a reven-hour traffic' Jam. , i i i 5 A (Fallon) Because the traffic was jammed in both ! l l 6- directions on the bridge from the time then I went across at l t 3 ! 7 2:00 o' clock, until the time, until 9:20. j i i 8 Q Do you have any way of knowing whethe" any particular l v l I
- 9 car was tied up in that traffic jam for seven hours? ;
i 10 A (Fallon) No, I have nc way of knowing that any t I 1 11 particular car was. 12 O Do you think that some were? () 13 A (Fallon) No. I a6 saying that the traffic jem went l 14 on for seven hvurs, of thie people who were leaving the beach on 15 that specific day and tne) were she people that we call the day l 16 trippers, f 17 If you talk about where I live on a summer Sunday, I f 18 have 15 cars in my driveway tt:at are there for the weekend a r.d t 19 none of them even begir, to leave until af ter 9:00 o' clock and i t ! 20 all of the residents of our area, the people stay there until { 21 i ;'s got ten dark. T hrry don' t even at + empt to leave the beach. ; { j 22 So the people that were involved in that specific [ ! t 23 traffic jam are the people who come for the day, not the pe opl e { i i
- c4 who come for picnics and to park in their friends' driveways ;
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l HOLLiNGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - CROSG 865D ; i 1 JUDGE LINENBERGER: Excuse me, Mr. Turk, but on this - i 2 point'you are just getting into here or havn gotton into, it is 3 no t. clear to me, Ms. Fallon, whether you are sayinD that the
- 4 seven hours in any way relates to the delay that'any particular 5 driver might have experienced or whether the seven houru G relates to the period of time over which a streten of' roadway 7 had many cars on it.
8 THE WITNESS (Fallon): Had many cars or, it. 9 That is the -- 10 JUDGE LINENBERGERS It is the latter? ' l 11 THE WITNESS (Fallon): It is the.latter.
'2 JUDGE LINENBERGER- Thank you. .
13 THE WITNESS (Fallon)n However, may I
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-14 JUDGE LINENBERGER: Thank you, that is cl1 I need. ,
15 JUDGE SMITHe She wants to explain. v 16 JUDGE LINENBERGER: Okay. l 4 l 17 THE WITNESS (Fallon): I d idn' t show it on the video , 18 this time, but I have often heard it referred to that in a 19 rainstorm that you could get in and out and that would b9 it. l 20 I have a videotape that shows and I used it from the house and 21 had it on the tripod and had the camera on the bridge, and I 22 had four hours and 15 minut es of the people trying to leave 03 after a rainstorm. It's pourie.g rain and ' ',e> are trying to !
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I4 exit the beach. , i 2 25 And you can see the state park at the end of the four ! I ' Heritage Report,sg Corporation (202) 628-4888
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- 4. HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLO, FALLON - CROSS 865h 1 hours. It in only half ernpt y ; there are bunen still uitting R there; there are cars still uitting there that are not out of 3 the b e w 't.
4 So a t, I can' t relate to you in that neven hour thing 5 that I showed how rnany people were utuck in that for what 6 period of t i rne, you know, I know in that other rainstorrn that 7 people, it did take thern that long to get out f. orn that state 8 park. I4eca use they cure aren' t Doing to nit there in the state 9 park, you know, there in no t h i ng rauch, they want ta pet out of 10 the beach after the ra i nst orrn. 11 DY HN. TUPK: 12 Q Go with respect to the rainstorrn episode, do you
) 13 bellove that norne people were stuck trying to get out and they 14 were in their cars for four hours?
15 A (Fallon) They were sitting there. The cars t-:e r e 16 st111 sitting there. I have got the t i l ta if you want rue to ~~ 17 O Do we knov if the cars were simpiy parked there or if 18 there was a driver in t h r: car seokang .o leave t t' e area? 19 A (Fallon) Well, I don' t know b 'e they w,uld be. 2C , . here' s no place at the state park, there are rest . oorns and a di place to eat. And ouv.ously on a Sunday might, the ocopic try 22 and get out af there, you a io w, when the nur. goes down they try 23 to pour o.t of thr- . These cai a were util1 uitt;ng there 24 still trying tc pa'l out of there. 25 I can' t uav where they were. (,
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i HOLLINGWORTH,'WEINHOLD, FALLON - CROSS 8657 1- Q_ Is it pounible that those' drivers roay have parked i 2' there' earlier in the day, then gone on to sorne other location { l 3 but the car was still parked in the parking lot? l I 4 A (Fal lord Well, it' n possible but the people usually 5 that park in the state bathhouse stay'in that area.- It is long ! f j 6 rernoved frorn the other parts of the beach and they usua',1y stay 7 there, s.nd head either north or south, but I can' t say. ! i 8 Q Now, in that rainutcera do you see a uteady strearn -- ( i 9 let rne describe it a little' differently. ! I 10 Do you see thic the cars are lined up pretty rauch l 11 burnper to burnpor in the traf fic lanes? l 1 12 A (Fallon) On the bridue, and they are even corning !
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- 13 north in the rain, which is hard to believe that there are i
14 still sorno people corning north into the beach area. j i 15 Q Did you observe any carn that had been abandoned in a ! i 16 traffic lane? 17 A (Fallon) In that part icular t irne, no, but another i 18 t irne on 286, I even have tha'. filrn along with rne today. I was l 19 in a car with Representative Roberta Pevear and drove frorn 286 l 20 and in one stretch along Route 1-A frorn 286 toward Hookstat t ; 21 Street there were roany, rnany ca's that were overheated and to 22 the side of the road with the bccds up and they were nicarly 23 visible. And th>ir drivers were standinD there but they were . 24 clearly broken down. It was a very hot day, traf fic jarn bo end f I 25 all t raf fic jarns. ? l Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 . I h 1 - h 1
l i: I MdLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - CROSS 86S8 { L 1 0 Those' cars -- l l l 2 A (Fallon) F.xcuse me? f l 3 Q If I understood you co.rectly you said those cars had 4 been pushed over or roovcd over to the side of the road. l 5 A (Fallon) They were in the barm, what we call'the ! 6 breakdown. lane, but the some picture i showed vou today there 1 , '7 were cars parked in that lano n11 the way out Route 1-A. l 8 And this sfocific time, there were cars broken down 9 in that lane. 10 Q Some ' the videotape that we saw today showed 11 traffic <,oving north on Route 1- A, and I assume this is an area 12 of the Town of SeabrookY j) 13 It's a little hard for me to dercribe this without 14 havino the tape in front of us, but I rr:all some of the aucio 15 tracks there that were now looking at cars moving north on 1 - A, 16 and actually they were standinD still. 17 And my question is, when you were taking pictures of 18 cars moving north on 1- A, were they south of the bridge goinD 19 over the Hampton Harbor? 20 A (Fallon) I can' t tell you because -- 21 Q What was your vantage point? 22 A (Fallon) Excuse me? i 23 Q Where was the vantage point from which you took those 24 pictures? 25 A (Fallon) I dor,' t understand -- were the cars tooving O Heritage Reporting Corporation (20a> 620-4888
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( a i F , .: i- d WOLLIhdWORTH, lee I NHOLD, FALLON - CROSS OMW ' . !- 1 at the tirno? ! i ' l 2 O No, I arn sorry, j
- 3 A (Fallon) Wau the traf fic- rooving?
l ? i . 4 Q Nc. I i i j 5 A (Fallon) I showed you two different ohen, iiocie that I 6 I was roovirta t.md the tears woro parked. ) l i l 1 v. 7 Q' No. There was -- 6 t }. s 8 MR. BACKUS: Wait a rninuto, I think we are tioing to !
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- 9 need to have attorney Turk define a little bit rnora l l
l 10 particularly - {
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! 11 MR. TURK: Let rne seu if .I can raake it a little ' sit . I. j j 12 raorn cleari l 1 v BACKUS: l
. 13 M R., Dr we may have to gei out the videotape 14 and fast forward it, I hope not, bt.c --
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15 BY MR. TURK: l l : l 16 Q There was a stretch of traffic on Route 1 - A, -- { 17 A- (Fa1lon) Yes? ! l 18 9 in a northbound direction that u;xsply was not ; I 19 rnov i n g . : i 20 A (Fallon) Oh, that was at the Bridge Market. l 21 O Okay, where on the rnap was that? What struots would 4 l 22 that be at? l (' f 23 A (F al lon) It is routeu, it is north or the Bridge, i l l I 24 taoro in a uection of the road where it branchen - is in l i 25 rnarked , the black litie is Route 1-A. There is a road off to the , [G ; Heritage Reporting Corporation ) , (202) 628-4888 l
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; HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - CROSS 8660 1 luft there-that is kind of a wye, anG that's Ashworth Ave. ,
2 which in the backside af h ~6- .-H. 3 Q All right, so that is in the Town of Hampton? 4 A (Fallon) Yes. 5 0 And maybe I missed it, where is the house located 6 from which you took the fireworks factory explorion? 7 A (Fallon) That across the bridge. There is a little
- 8 dot out, it says, Beckman Point?
9 Q Yes? 10 A (Fallon) That is where the house is. 11 MR. BACKUS: For the record, there is a little dot on 12 there that I think has been put on to indicate that location, o t, 13 is that right? 14 THE WITNESS (Fallon): Yes. 15 Mr. Turk, it is a pretty high house. There is a roof 16 deck bhat you have a clear visible view of Just about 17 everything in the whole c.rea. 18 MR. TURK: Your Honor, if I can, may I ask 44ttorney 19 Backus to let me see the map from which ~~ 20 MR. BACKUS: Yes. 21 MR. TURK: -- the portion that was attached to the 22 testimony was copied from? 23 MR. BACKUS: Yes. 24 JUDGE SMITH: And incidentally the Board's thanks to 25 Senator Pronton for those maps. It has been about the best O Heritagu Reporting Corporation (202) 628-L888 e J
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A* p i-i HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD. FALLON - CROSS 866 -
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; 1 tool that we have . tad up here. Wish there was some way that wo 1 )
l- 2 could get it into evidence. , j 3 THE WITNESS (Fallon): Well, I don' t think he would { 1 ) 4 mind. You know, one of the troubles is that I have gone back l 1 ! l' 5 to Mr. Preston t.) try and get those and for the last three or ' i i ! j 6 four yearn he han had terrible mapu and I kGep saying the.best j 2 i j 7 one you ever had was this one. ; I l 8 So, that is absolutely the last one I have that ; I t 9 hasn' t been chopped up. ; 4 ! l 10 JUDGE HARBOUR: Or given to the Licensing Board at an f I ! l 11 carlier time. , I l 12 THE WITNESS (Fallon): Oh, that is right, that was !
,h, 13 the same one. The Chamber of Ccmmerce has terrible Mr.ps, 1
14 incidentally, j 15 BY MR. TURK: l I 15 O I' d like to turn for a moment to the portion of the ;
. 17 tape and I Duess this is going to be addressed to Ms. Weinaold. j t .
18 A (Weinhold) Yes? ' 19 Q There is a portion of the tape that dealt with the [ 20 backup of traffic on Route I-95, and I want to clarify for my j 21 own understanding first, what are the na.ies of the e aads from 6 22 which you took those videotapes? f 23 A (Weinhold) Most of them were at the Towle Farm Road I i i* 24 overpass. Then I took some at the Route 88 overpass, 101-D I 25 overpass, which is probably on the other uide of the map; there ! I i Heritage Reporting Corporation f: f e (802) 628-4888 ) l I ! I w .- - ?
f HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON --CROSS 8660 r i s*e two sinus of the map. 2 And also at Post Road in North Hampton. j 3 O All right, now, as I understand the map _that I' m
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4 looking at, and this again was the map that was presented with 5 the understancinD that it in the mop from which your 6 attachments to your testimony was copied. 7 I see that Towle Farm Road is south of the toll booth z 8 plaza. _ 9 A (Weinhold) Yes, it is. 4 I 10 0 And Towle Farre Road, by the way is T-O-W-L-E Farm 11 Road. 12 A (Weinhold) Yes. 13 Q And Route 88, the overpass there is also south of the 4 (f
!% toll' booth plaza, is that correct?
.6 A (Wei hold) In Hampton Falls.
16 0 It's located in the Town of Hampton Fal.s, south of 17 the toll booth plaza? 18 A (Weinhold) Yes. 19 Q There's only one toll booth plaza that I see on this 20 eaap and that is at rlout e 101-C, Exeter Road, is that correct? 21 J u s t. south of there? 22 A (Weinhord) Well, you can see it from two areas. You 23 can see it at IOl-C and you can see it aDain at IOl-D in North 2A Hampton if you follow the toll 95. 25 0 And that i s, the IO1-D, that is north of the toll (2) I Heritage Reporting Corporation ) l (202) 628-4888 l
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a i i ! 1 .i HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - CROSS 8663 i. r i booth plaza, is that cott'ect? : l 5 l 6 2 A (Weinhold) Yes, 't is. 'l , i
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l 7-'s HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - CROSS 8669 U t322 1 MR. TURK: Now maybe we can do this with a 2 stipulation from counsel, and what I' m looking at is to try to N 3 identify the distance from those different vantaDe Points to 4 the toll both. t 5 And with that in mind, may we go off the record for a 6 moment, Your Honor? 7 JUDGE SMITH: All right. 8 (Dir,cussion off the record.) 9 MR. TURK: Mr. Backus and I have examined the map 10 together, and I believe we are ready to stipulate that Towle 11 Farm Road is approximately 4,000 feet south of the Toll Booth la Plaza, and Route 88, that overpass is approximately two miles 13 south of the Toll Booth Plaza. [) 14 THE WITNESS: (Weinhold) I' ll agree with that. 15 MR, TURK: All right, and I think Mr. Backus would 16 stipulate to that. 17 THE WITNESS: (Weinhold) Yeah. The Post Road, which la is where I took it on the 23rd of August, Sunday evening, is 19 approximately three and a half to four miles. 20 Is that what you agree on? 21 MR. TURK: Which one? 22 THE WITNESS: (Weinhold) Post Road, hcve you checked 23 that mileaDD7 24 MR. TURK: Not yet. 25 May we go off the record again? 4 Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 L _ - - - - _ _
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l i HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - CROSS 866's
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j 1 (Discussion off the record.) { ! i l 2 MR. TURK: Mr. Backun and I have attempted to measure L l
'3' the distance on the map from Post Road -- From the Post Road' l k 4 overpass to the toll booth, and by_our calculation it comes out
! f [ -5 that Post Road is approximately 2. 65 miles north of the Toll l ! 6 Booth Plaza, 2.65. j h ' i i 7 And I think Mr. Backutt would stipulate to that f I l ! 8 distance. 9 M R. uACKUS: Yes, subject to check, yes. 10 MR. TURK: Subject to verification, i i 11 (Pause.) I 12 MR. BACKUS: Yes, I agree. l () 13 MR. TURK: Okay, with that, Your Honor, with Mr. i 14 Backus' stipulation to that, I have nothing further. j i 15 JUDGE SMITH: Do you have questions? l 16 MR. WATSON: FEMA has no questions. 17 JUDGE SMITH: Any Intervenors have questions? I 18 MR. BROCK: I have a few, Your Honor. j 19 JUDGE SMITH: All riDht, i l 20 CROSS-EXAMINATION ! 21 BY MR. BROCK: I i 22 O Mrs. Fallon, in the videotape you presented some f f ! 23 aerial photography showit. arking on the sides of the road in l l ! 24 various roads in the EPZI is that correct? l l. t
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i 25 A (Fallon) I think the only one, Mr. Brock, was the g (:) ! l s l HeritaDe Reporting Corporation l t l (202) 628-4098 l i i ! ' 2 l< i a
Y ' e i ! !: I i i 1, l t . i i I [~' HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - CROGG 866h ! F .1__) i 1 one on 51. lhe other one was taken from the ground from a car j l
- 2. that my son was driving. >
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- 3. O And when were those photos taken, or those videos l l- !
i 4 taken? ,! i 5 A (Fallon) They were taken on a Sunday in 1982, the ! 6 aerial photo. And, I' m sorry, I can' t tell you the date. I l i i j 7 keep talking about his organization called Sun Valley. - It's a j i i i [ 8 social organization of the houses on the Seabrook side of the { ( 9 river from Hampton, and every year we have a meeting. And Mr. l 10 Zappala gave me $100 that particular year to go up and take' i l 11 some pictures from the air because he thought it would be the + f la time to do it. So I know that it was a Sunday before August l
) 13 15th, because that's when the dinner was.
l 14 Q All rig %t, and it was in 19827 l I 15 A (Fallon) Absolutel/. 16 Q Okay. And are the parking conditions that that f I i 17 portion of the video shows, do they reflect accurately the 18 conditions you presently find in Hampton Beach on the busier 19 summer days? 20 A (Fallon) Yes, they do, and I believe that Sergeant 21 DeMarco alluded to this earlier in nis direct testimony. I 22 heard him talk about it, and that's what made me think of thin 23 aerial photograph that I had that showed it. 24 And then whun I saw the Applicant s' picture, I was OS horrified to see the peak summer day had no cars parked in that D Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 1 (
HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - CROSS 8667 1 area, and I think Sergeant DeMarco said people usually take L 2 their keys with them, so. 3 O Is it fair to say then that in your opinion the day 4 utilized cy the Applicants was not a peak beach day? 5 A (Fallon) Absolutely not, in my opinion. 6 O Now, the traffic Jam which was also on the video, and 7 I believe Mr. Turk alluded to, when was that video taken? 8 A (Fallon) You mean the one that showed that seven or 9 eight rninut es? 10 That was taken July 19, 1987. I also have July 5, 11 1987, also dated with a lonD traffic jam. Those are the two 12 days that I was nutty enough to stand out there for that rnany 13 hours this summer. 14 I have other Sundays, other years, of the same types 15 of traffic conditionn. 16 JUDGE SMITH: You don' t have July 5th on this one 17 though? 18 THE WITNESS: (Fallon) Yes, I have one taken from my 19 Poof deck of the crowd over there, but I did not put July 5th 20 on. I used the 19th because they had used the 18th, and I 21 thought it was coincidental that I happen to have the next 22 day. So that's why I didn' t put -- 23 BY MR. DROCK: 24 Q But the traffic jain that lasted for better than seven 25 hours, an you described it, that was taken this paut n umrour, in Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 f l
HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - CROSS 8660 1 19877 2 A (Fallon) Yes, it was, and it Does on to about two 3 videotapes, because the camera taken at two-hour speed. And I 4 took it down to whatever minutes we ended up with. 5 And when I was across the bridge, at the bridge ma-k, 6 and I held the camera on my shoulder for the whole t irne, and 7 when I came back across the street about three hours later, my 8 shoulder was getting a little tired, and so I ast it, there's 9 some kind of an electric box at Diburros Supermarket, and I 10 just set it there and let it run. 11 Q And again, the traffic conditions that that -- that 12 larereflectedonthevideotapewithrespect to that traffic J am, do they fairly represent the traffic conditions you would
) 13 14 find in the Hampton Beach area on busier summer beach days?
15 A (Fallon) Absolutely. At tnat place that I was 16 standing there at Hooksett Street, there is a traffic light, 17 and I live on the east side of the traffic light, and I can' t 18 get out there on a summer Sunday to go to that supermarket at 19 the traffic light because -- I know I heard Dr. Mileti talk 20 about people being altruistic, but believe me, they are not at 21 that particular traffic light at Hampton Beach. 22 If you want to cross to go to the Diburros Market, 23 and they just keep going on the gewen light, and they won' t let 24 you through, and I have even seen people balancing canos of 25 beer. What we do in park our car across, and try to run the TO Heritage Reporting Corporation i (202) 628-4888 i
h i HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - CROS3 BGG 9 1 Daunt let which rai Dht'be in acmo instances crazy, but I've seen ' 2 people with a case of beur over their head and carrying a bag ! 3 of Droceries trying to run across that traffic. They will not 4 let you cross the road, and they will not let you enter the d 5 wad, and that in why the people -- my f arnily that cornes on the G weekend don' t leave until after 9:00, because they won' t let [ 7 you out at that light to join their traffic jam. 1 8 JUDGE SMITH: Do they -- even white-haired folku, do 9 bhey -- 'l 3 10 THE WITNESS: (Fallon) Excuse roo? s 11 Especially white-haired folks. 12 (Laughter.) 13 THE WITNESS: (Fallon) I' d tell you one funny story r I) i 14 that happened. Standing there at Diburros -- it's not funny, i 15 it's very nice. A wornan came up I' d never rnet before and ; 16 insisted -- I really was hungry and I had to call horse because i 17 I was usinD batteries and my daughter was going back and forth la getting me the charged batteries at Diburros. And this woman, [ i f 19 I was kind of hungry, and the only reason I did this, ray 1 4 4 20 husband went to Miami for the day, because he would have i 21 thought I was crazy to do this, and she brought rne -- her naroe ' Ef. is Cele, I had never met her before, from the Clam Stage, and l l l 23 she brought me an entire dinner. So I stood there and let the I i 24 carnera run and had a great dinner. But it was kind of a crazy p 25 thing to do, but i n'.erest i ng, too. I Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 i I
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l. l HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - CROSS 8670 1 I' m sorry, I got off the subject. I forgot what the 2 question was. 3 MR. BROCK That's all right. Mrs. Fallon,.you are 4 doing fine. 5 (Laughter.) 6 THE WITNESS: (Fallon) You realize that anybody that 7 hangs out of an airplane, and I d idn' t tell you but some of the 8 shots that I took going out Highland Avenue and Church Street 9 with Beverly, I was in her Porsche, in the winter, with the top 10 off, standinD and driving and taking this picture, and puople 11 were going and honking at us and calling out all norts of a 12 thinun. So I' va done some crazy things this year. () 13 BY MR. BROCK: 14 Q Let me ask you one otoer quention,'Ms. Fallon. 15 Early on in the videotape there was a shot of a wall 16 which had soma paint on it, which I think you referred to. 17 Where in that? 18 A (Fallon) That is at the entrance to Church Street, 19 and that is where if you -- there wa.u a barrier to the left 20 that I think Mrs. Hollingworth referred to in her testimony, 21 where the man has had to conntruct a barrier to protect his 22 property. And on the other side they have kind of put a cornent 23 wall, and that is what people, or trucks bruuh up against when 24 they come around the corner. And as I uaid, I saw some black 25 paint, and I gunas I' m a detect ive enough to think it came from Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4808
I i ! i i i ; d i ; f' HOLLINOWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - CROSS 867: 1 a. truck, or bus, or a car. : 1 2 A (Hollingworth) Could I elaborate on that, please? ! 3 0 Yes. . 4 A (Hollingworth) Church Street has been a raajor 5 problem for the comtnunity, 'Jecauun of the narrowings of it. ! 6 And there have been roany accidents. And as a state l 7 representative -- i i : t 8 Q Can I ask for a clarification? We' re speaking of the ' I 9 intersection of Church Street and 1-A?
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10 A (Hollingworth) Right, that's what sorno people call j i ; i 11 the rnouth going on to the Exeter-Harnpton Expresuway. ! l 12 And I was contacted an a state representative by the 13 two owners on each side of Church Street, and they were f I 4 14 requesting that I go to the utate and try to get thera to do I l 15 sornething about the problern with that opening. [ 16 Q Can you explain a little bit about the problern? What f; 17 do you rouan the problera? ! b 18 A (Hollingworth) Well, their huildings had been hit i 19 raany t irnes. They have had people who have been seriously j i 20 injured. In fact, I think there roight have even been a ! I i 21 casualty at that intersection. I ' ra not positive of that, but j 22 there has been very serious accidents where people have landed i 23 inside the rootel of the Greenbriar. And that is on the south ! { 24 of Church Street. l i 25 And on the north of Church Street is al-a the rnall, I (~) u i l i Heritage Reporting Corporation ! (202) 628-4888 l I i
l l' - HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - CROSS. 867, '
- j. 1 and that place has been hit many times, and they requested the 1
l 2' state to remove some parking spots in the state parking lot ! 3 which would D i ve better visibility to Church Street. I 41 Thk state being, unfortunately, very interested in 1 l 5 the financial nature didn' t remove those parking spaces, and so l , 6 the problem continueu on. i 7 So thone _ people -- we even t ried to get them to put l 8 in stop lights, or street lights, or something, because what 9 you have is traffic going across that, and traffic pulling into 10 it, and any truck that has to turn into that has to double-lane 11 that area. In other words, if they have to go south, then turn 12 toward the ocean, then turn again, and then double-lane it_and come back,.takinD two lanes all the way to be able to Do down
) 13 I 14 Church Street to get able to angle their larDe trucks to clear
- . 15 through there.
.i - 16 So the people are very concerned about that problem, 17 and we did go to the state, we did ask them to do somothing 18 about it. Unfortunately, they never saw fit to do uo, and so 19 the people constructed steel posts and their wall, a cement 20 wall to try to prevent people from coming into their units and 21 into their yards. 6 22 Q To your knowledge, though, is the problem of 23 accidents at that intersection, in that utill a present 24 problem? s 25 A (Hollingworth) Absolutely. D HeritaDe Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 J
l~ l HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - CROGG 8670 1- Q= Reprouent at i ve Hol l i rigwort h, to your' knowledge, is f 2 the intersection of Church Street and 1-A a designated. primary 3 evacuation route for Hampton Beach under the New Hampshire 4 plan? 5 A (Hollingworth) Yes, it in. There is only one other, G which is Highland Avenue, which goou in the opponite direction. g I ! 7 But under the plan, it calls for the traffic to be rerouted. f 3 ) i i j 8 So people who are normally in the condition of using that road ! l ! l 9 in one direction would be required to use it in another i 10 direction. So that's the only other accean routu on to that ! l 11 expresuway. : 12 MR. DROCK: Thank you. Nothing further. () 13 JUDGE SMITH: Anything further? lt 14 Ms. Weiss? i i i 15 M3. WEISS: Mr. Chairman, I had wanted to cicar up i i 1 16 one point. l 17 CROSS-EXAMINATION f 18 BY MS. WEISS: i 19 Q Representative Hollingworth, there have been some f 20 questions suggeuting that there might be an inconniutency o 21 between your testimony that Sunday tu the heaviest day on the 22 beach and traffic counters which count more cars on Saturday. . 23 Do you remember that? f 24 A (Hollingworth) Yes, I do. p l i 25 Q And an I understand your tentimony, the typical motel [ C) i I Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 . l t f
h i l HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - CROSG 8679 ' L- {A l l 1 and hotel hours would call for check in 1:00, 2:00 or 3:00_in-l 2 the afternoon on Saturday; is that correct? 3 A (Hollingworth) Correct. 4 0 Which would mean that those cars coming in in the 5 late af ternoon on Saturday would not have the people on the I 6 beach until Sunday; is that correct? 7 A (Hollingworth) That's correct. 8 O So then is there any inconsistency between your 9 statement that the beaches have more people on them on Sunday 10 and the fact that the traffic is counting more cars on 11 Saturday?
. 12 MR. TURK: Objection. I think that calls for
) 13 speculation.
14 THE WITNESS: (Hollingworth) I don' t think it does 15 if I can clarify it. 16 JUDGE SMITH: Well, if she knows. Let ' s find out.
< 17 THE WITNESS: (Hollingworth) I can clarify it, 18 because I did do a survey, and I called several of the hotels 19 in the area, and I asked two questions. . asked what is check-r 20 in time and what is check-out time, and I asked several of 21 the -- not all of them, because I hadn' t thought about this 22 until later. But I asked what day they believed to be the 23 busiest day on Hampton Beach.
24 And the majority of the people that I did pose that 25 question to said, Sunday, by all means, Sunday. D Reporting Corporation Heritage (202) 628-4888 l l
r l l-HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - REDIRECT I [ 8675 1 And as the president of the Chamber, I think that I 2 have a good pulse of what happens in the beach area, because I 3 have lived there for, I hate to admit'it, close-to 50 years. 4 I' m over 50, but I' ve lived there right on the beach. I had l 5 lived off the beach for a few years. But from observing, I i l-
- 6 believe that I have personally observed that traffic is much ]
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7 heavier on a Sunday. I i 8 And it's not just the motels, hotels. It's all the j t 9 cottages, and Hampton Beach is -- you know, most of the side ! I l 10 streets are cottages and roominD houses, and those cottages and l ! i 11 roominD houses, and the real atate dealers all uay that check- { l 12 in time is after 3:00, 1:00, and so that almost all the beach l () 13 check in would be on Saturday late. 14 JUDGE SMITH: Any further, do you have any cronn? ; 15 MR. DIGNAP5 No, Your Honor. l l 16 JUDGE SMITH: Do you have any redirect? I l 17 MR. 9ACKUS: Just a couple clarifying questions. l; l'8 JUDGE SMITH: We are really running out of time. l 19 MR. BACKUS: You, just a couple things to clear up i i 20 the record. I 21 REDIREC" EXAMINATION i l ! 22 DY MR. BACKUS: I 1 l l i 23 Q The videotape, Ms. Fallon, utilizes not only pictureu j l l ! 24 you took, but pictures of a map. l l 25 1s that the same map portion which is attached to i O-HeritaDe Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 i - = _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ____ _ __ _ __ _ _-___ _ ___ _ _ - ~ . . _ . _ .
E i HOLLINGWORTH, WEINHOLD, FALLON - REDIRECT 8676 (
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ss , 1 your testimony? 2 A (Fallon) That's correct. 3 G And it also uses some utill aerial photos. 4 Am I correct that those are the Applicants' aerial
'5 photos that were previously marked?
6 A (Fallon) You, those are. I borrowed them, and they 7 are the Applicantu' photos, because I' m looking at the large 6 onou at the hearinDs ove;- in the other building. I didn' t , 9 think the roads looked very crowded so. 10 MR. D4CKUS: That's all. 11 JUDGE SMITH: All right, thank you very much. 12 THE WITNESS: (Fallon) Thank you. f) 13 THE WITNESS: (Hollingworth) If I could just make 14 one -- if it's possible, could I ask if I could just say one 15 thing that I didn' t get asked on, and it was on hidden spaces, 16 and I would like to say that I think that that is substantial, 17 because I feel that that reflects what will happen in the ETE 18 time, and I think that that is a point that I think should -- I 19 wished I had been addressed on the adequacy of the plan and the 20 workability and the possibility of, as I heard today, Mr. Flynn 21 address whether the plan could be operated. 4 22 JUDGE SMITH: Implemented. 23 THE WITNESS: (Hollingworth) Implemented -- relies a 24 great deal on what those ETE times are. Ana I think that 25 regretfully I -- that was not questioned. I think the people
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) '" O who did those research on this, it's important that we 1 i 2 recoDnize that. 3 I think with that additional traffic, I think it 4 4 changes some of the conditions. 5 JUDGE SMITH: You mean the addit ional parking places? , 6 THE WITNESS: (Hollingworth) Yes, correct. 7 JUDGE SMITH: Is that what you' re ref erring to? f 8 THE WITNESS: (Hollingworth) Yos. .s (' 9 JUDGE SMITH: Okcy. Thank you. 10 (The witnesses where thereupon excused.) 11 JUDGE SMITH: Now, we had hoped to gu- another 12 witness in, but I don' t think it's possible. I think we should 13 go straight to Dr. Bores and Mr. Thomas. 14 Does that cause you any big difficulty? 15 MR. BACKUS: I don' t think there was any other 16 witness was there? ' 17 JUDGE SMITH: Well, I thouDht you wanted to have i 18 Dagoulis. 19 MR. BACKUS: Dr. Dagoulis is net available until 20 tomorrow morning. And I, antic'pating after discussion, he 21 would be the first witness tomorrow morning i f we' re at ; hat 22 point. 23 JUDGE SMITH: Oh , there was just this panel -- 24 MR. BACKUS: Yes. 25 JUDGE SMITH: All right. Well, let eke a 10 O Heritage ReportinD Corporation (202) 628-4888 l
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e 1 86741 1 niinute break, and thun decido between you and Mr. Flynn how 2 you' re going to, how you' re Doing to present this group. One 4 3 should be prirne and one should be suppleniental, and then we 4 wi11 utart down for cross-exarninat f on. 5 (Whereupon, a recess was taken.) E322 6 (Continued on next page.) 7 8 9 10 11 4 12 13 14 15 16 17 ) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 [G Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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D 8679 d 1 JUDGE SMITH: Dr. Bores, would you stand and be sworn, 2 please? 3 Whereupon, 4 ROBERT BORES 5 was called as a witness, and after having been first duly 6 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 7 MR. TURK: Your r:onor, I -- 8 JUDGE SMITH: Mr. Thomas, you are still under oath 9 from your last testimony. 10 Whereupon, a + 11 EDWARD THOMAS
- la was recalled as a witness, and after having been previously
) 13 duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
- 14 MR. TURK: Your Honor, at thin time, the swearing of 6
15 Dr. Bores, I would like to simply introduce him for the record, , 16 and ask him to state his full name. 17 THE WITNESS (Bores): My name is Robert J. Bores. 18 MR. TURK: And would you please state your place of 19 employment? 20 THE WITNESS (Bores): I am emplo.ved at RoDion I of I 21 the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission. P MR. TURK: And what in your position there? P THE WITNESS (Bores): I am tne technical assistant to 24 g l.a Division of Radiation Safety and Safeguards. I 25 MR. TURK: And could you please tell us what in the i Heritage Reporting Corporation r (202) 628-4888
8680 1 current scope of your duties in that position? 2 THE WITNESS (Bores): The current scope of my dutieu 3 is basically to assist the division director in technical arean 4 which relate to radiological programs, materials; licensing 5 radiological programs; emergency preparedness activities; in 4 6 general the technical aspects that our division handles. In 7 addition, I am the RAC member for the Seabrook issues. 8 MR. TURK: And I suppose that it's going to -- I l 9 don' t want to extend the scope of this, Your Honor, I would 10 like to ask whether or not Dr. Bores has reviewed the Seabrook 11 plan, that is, the New Hampshire Radiological Emergency 12 Response Plan, as part of your duties as the NRC RAC member? () 13 THE WITNESS (Bores): I have reviewed the Seabrook 14 plans on -~ for the several revisions, as a matter of fact, 15 including Rev. 2. 16 MR. TURK: And finally, could you please give us a 17 summary of your educational experience, degrees and subject 18 mat t w.* ? 19 THE WITNESS (Bores): Well, I have a bachelor's in 20 physics and math, a master's in radiological science and a 21 Ph.D. in radiation biophysics areas. f 22 MR. TURK: Your Honor, I do have a copy of a 23 statement of professional qualifications for Dr. Bores and 24 rather than belabor any kind of background, particularly since 25 we are looking for factual accountings today, I would sugDest I Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
868 , 1 that I can hand this to the Reporter and have it bound into the 2 record. 3 JUDGE SMITH: Why don't you pass it around and then 4 when it gets done, if there are no objections, we will put it
- 5. in the transcript at this point.
6 Would you complete your table of orDanization, work 7 your ny up to the top? What division are you in? 8 THE WITNESS (Bores): Okay. 9 It is the division of the Radiation Safety and 10 Safeguards. I work for the division director. We have in 11 ReDion I three technical divisions. We report to the regional 12 administrator along with the administrative.
) 13 JUDGE SMITH: And the regional administrator reports 14 1 directly to the EDO for Regional Operations?
15 THE WITNESS (Bores): Yes, s i r. 16 MR. TURK: Your Honor, that concludes my brief 17 introduction of Dr. Bores. In light of the fact that we do 18 have two witnesses from two different agencien with two 19 different attorneys in the proceeding now, in order to 20 establish some sort of an orderly format, Mr. Flynn and I have 21 agreed, with the concurrence of our witnesses, that Mr. Thoman 22 will be lead witness or primary witness in the discuusion this 23 afternoon and Mr. Bores would take second place, in battinD 24 order. 25 In addition, I' d like to propose that rather than Heritage Reporting Corporation
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,. I E 8682 1 simply have a roundtable type of questioning whenever anyone !
2 has a question in mind, they may feel free to advance it, at 3 first, at least, we try to follow some nort of orderly.Vormat. ! 4 JUDGE SMITH: Well, what I meant by.roundtable, I l i. 5 meant sequential. : 6 MR. TURK: Fine. 7 JUDGE SMITH: Dut not formally as to who is 8 presenting a witness, who is cross-examining, who is what, but t 9 Just sequential, but without regard to positions on the issues. I 10 Without regard to who has the right to cross-examine and who l 11 has the right to direct, without that type of weight being put 12 on the questions. i () 13 So we just literally Do around the table, as far as f f 14 I' m concerned, see, without regard to -- a 15 MR. TURK: That's fine. I would like to follow, if l 16 we can, an approach whereby if either the utility or the i Intervenors wish to go first, let one or the other groups and i 17 18 within the groups of Intervenors, since Massachusetts Attorney 19 General is lead, perhaps he would Do first, followed by other 20 Intervenors who wish to follow up. j 21 JUDGE SMITH: I do think that the Massachusetts f 22 Attorney General should take the lead on this because this is t 1 23 their issue, yes. 24 THE REPORTER: Your Honor, am I to understand that 25 this is not in the examination format? ; i Heritage Reporting Corporation l (202) 628-4888 l I f
8683 l 1 JUDGE SMITH: You can call it examination but not, i i ! 2 you can call it all cross-examination, if you wish. It doesn' t , 3 really matter. No one is offering the witness an a part of 3 4 their case in chief, or as part of an affirmative case, so just 5 call it examination. 6 MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, I propose to start with a 7 brief direct examination to establish a context and to provide 8 the framework of information from which the cross-examination 9 could follow. 10 JUDGE SMITH: All right. 11 This will be direct and everything else will be 12 cross-examination. 7) u 13 DIRECT EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. FLYNN: 15 Q Mr. Thomas, and Dr. Dores, as Mr. Turk has pointed 16 out, the framework that we have agreed upon is that Mr. Thomas 17 will be the lead witness. I will direct my questions to Mr. 10 Thomas, but I will invite Dr. Boros to add anything additional 19 at the end of Mr. Thomas's response as he feels it's 20 appropriate. di Mr. Thomas, in earlier testimony it was established 22 that you were the chairman of the regional assistance committee 23 for Region I. 24 In that capacity, did you convene the regional 25 assistance committee, recently? k HeritaDe Reperting Corporation (202) 628-4888
DORES, THOMAS - DIRECT OG3C 1 A (Thomas) Yes, I did. 2 O When was tnat? 3 A iThomas) It was convened for two days, January 7th, 4 and January 8, 1983. 5 O Who attended that meeting? 6 A (Thomas) The agencies in attendar.co were the NRC, 7 the Department of Transporta'icn, the Health and Hurnan 8 Services, Depart tnent of Health ard Human Services, the > 9 Departraent of Energy, the Departroent of the Interior, FEMA, the 10 National Weather Service, and the Environrnental Protection 11 Agency. 12 O Was there an agenda established for the meeting () 13 beforehand? 14 A (Thomas) Yes, there was. 15 0 What was on that agenda? 16 A (Thomas) The a0anda was distributed by mamorandum 17 from rae to the regional assistance committee. The mornorandum 18 was dated December 11, 1987. There were nine items on the i 19 agenda. In addition, as the first itern of business the NRC 20 representatives asked that two additional i t erns be added to the 21 agenda and be taken out of sequence. ; 4 22 Would you like rne to read the items? 23 Q Yes, just run through those quickly. 24 A (Thomas) Okay. 25 The -- for logical coherence I wi11 mention ftest the r Heritage Reporting Corporation l (202) 628-4888 i I
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l 1 l 7"' BORES, THOMAS - DIRECT 868b ! 1 1 two items that the NRC asked to be added to the agenda and.be 2 taken out of sequence as the first two items. 3 The first was the schedulinD of exercises for 1988. 4 Should I briefly indicate what the topic is, so everyone 5 understands it -- when we say scheduling of exercises, talking 6 about what would be the projected dates, or what would be the 7 possible dates for exercises involving nuclear power plants in 8 Region I. ; 9 0 Well, I don' t want to belabor the record with a lot to of detail about things other than the beach population issue, ' 11 but I just want to establish a context for the discussion that la took place at the meeting. . I 13 A (Thoman) Fine. The second item was Pilgrim restart. m 14 The third item, which is the first item on thin list of nine 15 items, was the discussion of the New Hampshire updated letters 16 of agreement. 17 , The next item was the summary of personnel resnurces 18 assessment for the New Hampshire RERP. The next item is the 19 belch, excuse me, strike that please, I am sorry. , 20 The beach shelter survey for the Seabrook area. The 21 next item is the Maine state plan. The next i t ere is the Maine ; 22 ingestion pathway plan, which we considered separate and apart J 23 from the overall Maine state plan, which focused on the Maine ; 24 Yankee plant. The Maine ingestion pathway plan focuuen on the 25 Seabrook ingestion pathways. I I Heritage Reporting Corporation ;
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t L DORES, THOMAS - DIRECT 8680 (~)i 1 The next item in the Massachusettu inuestion pathway 2 plan. The next item in expansion of the emerDency planning 3 zonen, the plume'exponure emergency planning zones for Pil Drim 4 4 and Maine Yankee. The next item iu listed an Seabrook beaches. 5 The next item is the Rhode Inland ingestion pathway plan. 6 Q Now, that was the agenda, but an it turned out, what 7 was the main topic of discussion at that mouting? 8 A (Thomas) As it turned out, the main topic of 9 discussion was the Seabrook beaches. 10 0 Would you nummarize for un the concluutona that 11 people reached in that discuusion? 12 A (Thomas) In order to summarize the discussion, I () 13 think the easiest way to do it is wn had discussion over a two-14 day period, primarily the first day and that discunnion boiled 15 down to and focused in on really a simple question. And that 16 was, with respect to NUREG-0654, specifically Elementu J-9 ar.d 17 J-lo-M, were the Ndw Hampshire plans, the Rev. 2, an presented, 18 adequate or inadequate with roupact to focusing on the beach 19 population, the folks that lived in the unwinterized 20 accommodations as well as the people that were on the beachen 21 without ready access to shelter? 22 We were not able to come to a consensus, 23 unfortunately. It was really the first time we ever had not 24 been able to aDree on one position. We therefore took a vote at 25 which each agency was asked to say whether they felt the plans O Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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7"' BORES, THOMAS - DIRECT 8687
.1 were adequate or inadequate and to utate their reasoning.
2 The reasoning is somewhat listed on these charts , ? which were prepared during the course of the meeting. One of 4 my staff members would jot down the. salient pcints of the 5 discussion as we went along. And the voting was as follows in 6 no particular order, it's just what I have' jotted down here. 7 The Department of Tra',.cportation representative -- do 8 you wish me to give their names or just their -- 9 Q Yes, please. 10 A (Thomas) The Department of Transportation 11 representative, '4 r. Paul Lutz, indicated as follows: i 12 A, that we may not have the testimony of the NRC on i
) 13' the containment, but the containment was enormous. There never 14 was going to be an accident at Seabrook. That we should realize 15 that New Hampshire has the best plans he had over seen. That wo 16 should quit the legalisms, he indicated, with all respect to 17 the Chairman.
P 18 Indicated that there were worse sites from an _ r 19 emergency planning perspecti<e. That we had done our job. The f 20 state had done its job and that no one should wear a black hat. - s 21 The plans were adequate in this respect. 22 O Okay. l 23 2'm going to ask you to step for a moment and I' ll 24 ask Dr. Dores if that agrees with his recollection of what Paul 25 Lutz said? 1 Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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L ,- l BORES, THOMAS - DIRECT 8680 1 A (Bores) I believe that's pretty accurate, yes. 2 O Okay. 3- MR. TURK: May I also_ note for the record that I' d 4 like to request the NRC Staff. witness to supplement and feel 5 free to supplement if in any way he feels something further 6 needs to be said. 7 Is there anything you wish to add to that? 8 THE WITNESS (Bores): Since we had discussed, you 9 know, sheltering or as a shelterinD possibility before the vote 10 was taken, he had indicated that he certainly had no objections 11 to a sheltering option, if it could be worked in. 12 But he felt the plans as they stood were adequate. () 13 THE WITNESS (Thomas): Thank you, Bob. 14 It shows the, an example of how the collegial crocess 15 improves things. Bob is absolutely right. Paul later in the 16 discuusion did indicate that a sheltering option would enhance 17 the plans, in his opinion. 18 BY MR. FLYNN: 19 Q And the next RAC member? 20 A (Thomas) The next RAC member, aDain, in no 21 particular order is the Department of Energy, Mr. Herbert Fish 22 indicated that the plans were okay au they were, with respect 23 to this issue. Again, we are talking about J-9 and J-10-M. 24 However, they could be enhanced by the addition of the best 25 possible sheltering plan or the best reasonably achievable C:) l l Heritage Reporting Corporation ! (202) 628-4888
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, l DORES, THOMAU - DIRECT 860')
1 sheltering plan. i
-i 2 O Dr. Bores?.
P 3 A (Bores) I think Herb may have felt a little bit more 4 -- this is speculation -- a little bit more that sheltering 5 might have been more benefit in his' position until he heard-6 Paul talk, Paul Lut: talk, and then he came back and he 4 , 7 reiterated that, in fact, the plaru were adequate but, again, 8 the shelter aspect would enhance them, could enhance them. 9 O Mr. Thomas, the next RAU member? 10 A (Thoman) The next RAC member is Dr, Robert J. Bores, 3 11 here present, who basically went through for un the, what we 12 refer to the Bores a memo, the June 4, 1987, memorandum talking ,
) 13 about the beach. population, indicating that in hin opinion the-4
- 1 <4 plans were adequate. That specificaily that there was a range r
15 of protective actions for the beach population, focusinn on -- 16 g in the range from anything, from doing nothing to a variety of l t 17 different types of evacuation, early evacuation, and that we l 18 had to look at the whole range of accident scenarios, the : l 19 entire EPZ population, not just, as I did in the memorandum 20 that FEMA sent out in December of 1985, part of the accident I 21 sequences for part of the population, part of the time. i 22 And I think that's about all I remember. Dob? , 23 A (Bores) I guese I could elaborate on a number of
- l 24 these issues but I guess they' l l come back anyway. ,
l i i 25 J'JDGE SMITH: Well, the ground rule is not that you [ i Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 ' j
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Oi 3 -DORES, THOMAS - DIRECT 8690 1 elaborate'beyond what you elaborated at the RAC. 2 THE WITNESS (Bores): I understand.- , 3 We talked about sheltering and what we thought, or 41 types of situations where we thought sheltering could possibly 5 enhance it. Some discussion that in fact that in some instances i 6 sheltering may be an adverse option. 7 Basically, I Duess what I talked to was the fact that 8 I thought that the plan was adequate and met the criterio.and [ 9 any sheltering could enhance the plan, under certain 10 circumstances. l 11 BY MR. FLYNN: 1 12 O Mr. Thomas, the fourth RAC member? - () 13 A (Thomas) The next one I have down here is the 14 Federal Emergency Management Hgency which is myself, and 15 basically what I did was I read to the RAC the J standard which 16 calls for a range of protectivo actions. And I am. reading 17 right off the chart on the wall here. 18 JUDGE SMITH: You' re going to do that now, this is 19 from NUREG-06547 20 THE WITNESS (Thomas): I f you' d like, I just note 21 that I read the J, the overall J standard, before we get into 22 the J numbered paragraphs and I don' t have it committed to 23 memory and I don' t have a copy of 0654, would you like for me
- l. 24 to read it into the record? I see one.
25 JUDGE SMITH: Yes. Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 4
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DORES, THOMAS - DIRECT 869 , 1 Does that have my narna on it, by any chance? 2 THE WITNESS (Thomas): It says Harmon & Weiss. 3 Would you like rne to reat : that in? 4 JUDGE SMITH: Yes, p l e a t.o . 5 MS. WEISS: Available from NTIS. G THE WITNESS (Thomas): The J standard of NUREG-0654, 7 the opening paragraph says, a range of protective actions have 8 been developed for the plume exposure pathway EPZ for emorDency 9 workers and the public. Guidelines for the choice of 10 protective actions during an emergency, consistant with federal 11 guidance, are developed and in place, and protective actions 12 for the ingestion exposure pathway EPZ appropriate to the 7. g_] 13 locale have been developed. 14 So I read that to the RAC, then read the J-9 15 standard. Shall I read that as well?
; 16 The J-9 standard says each state and local 17 orDanization shall establish a capability for implementinD f
18 protective measures based upon protective action guides and l 19 other criteria. 20 This shall be consistent with the recommendationc of l 21 EPA reDarding exposure resulting from passage of radioactive 22 air-borne plumes, (EPA-20 -- excuse rne, strike that, please. l 23 (EPA-520/1-75-001) and with those of DHEW (DHHS)/FDA regarding 24 radioactive contamination of human food and animal feeds as 25 published in the Federal Register of December 15, 1978 (43 FR Huritage Reporting Corporation (202) E28-4888 t-
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1 58790). ! l 2 Then I went on to read to the RAC protective responne l 6 i 3 J-10-M, which says, the bases for the choice of recommended j i 4 protuctive actions for the plume exposure pathway during ; I 5 emergency conditions. 6 This shall include the expected local protection + 7 afforded. And there's a Footnote No. 2, in residential units 8 or other shelter for direct or inhalation exposure, as well as 9 evacuation time estimates. 10 The footnote 2 is rather long, shall I read.it as
- 11 well?
.i 12 JUDGE SMITH: Yes, I guess so. ,
; () 13 THE WITNESS (Thomas) I did not read it at the j 14 meeting. ;
~ i 15 JUDGE SMITH: Well, read at now, please. I ; 16 THE WITNESS (Thomas): Footnote No. 2, is 2/, the 17 following reports may be considered determining protection , 18 afforded. -[ 'i
- 19 (1) "Public protection strategies for potential i ;
i 20 nuclear reactor accidents." "Sheltering concepts with existing l 21 public and private structures." L L l 22 (SAND-77-1725), Sandia Laboratory. [ 23 (2) "Examination of off-site radioloDical emergency j 24 measures for nuclear reactor accidents involving ccre melt." E 25 (SAND-78-0454), Sandia Laboratory. ; I I
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l 4 DORES, THOMAS - DIRECT 8693 1 (3) "Protective action evaluation part 2,-evacuation ; L I i 2 and sheltering au a protective actions -- excuse me -- ) i 3 evacuation and sheltering as protective actions against nuclear , 4 accidents involving gaseous releaunu." l 5 (EPA-520/1-78-001B). U. S. Environmental Protection 6 Agency. 7 JUDGE SMITH: You were ri D ht. It was long. P 8 THE WITNESS (Thomas): Sorry. 9 I read that to the RAC and stated that the day 10 trippor9 were a substantial part of the emergency planning zone 11 population. Day trippers -- do I need to define what I mean by f 12 that? It's fairly well known. f) 13 JUDGE SMITH: I think we're familiar with that. I 14 THE WITNESS (Thomas): The next point was sheltering l 15 may not be considered a protective action option accordinD to 16 what we understood the plan said and went on to cxplain that I 17 there had been testimony in this proceeding that indicated that ; 18 the state was not foreclosing the option of sheltering: 19 however, there was no actual plan in place for achieving that 20 objective. ! i 21 Next, that in NUREG-0654, the planning basis for I I 22 coping with an accident, indicated that we could have accidents 23 of a release startir.g within a half an hour. I went on to
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24 explain Page 17, Table 1, that gives the parameters for . 25 emerDency planning in terms of duration of release, the timen i i I , Heritage Reporting Corporation I (202) 628-4808 I , 1
1 (~% DORES, THOMAG - DIRECT 869^ a L) i to a release, and the travel times of a release. 2 Would you like me to read that from Table 1, or -- 3 JUDGE SMITH: Yes. 4 THE WITNESS (Thomas): Or Table, as, Table 1, on 5 Page 177 6 JUDGE SMITH: Did you explain it then? 7 1HE WITNESS (Thomas): It is so well known to the 8 RAC, they are quite familiar with this. We have gone over 9 this. 10 JUDGE SMITH: All right, does anybody want it, no, , 11 then don' t. . 12 THE WITNESS (Thomas): It is au stated in the () 13 document. 1 14 And then finally that the New Hampshire REHP hat, in 15 these circumstances only one protective action for the day 16 trippers which was evacuation. 17 (Continued on the next page.) 18 I 19 . 20 21 22 - 23 i-24 . I 25 . Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4883 , I L 1 r
i l 1 BORES, THOMAS - DIRECT 869t , T324' 1 That-was what FEMA said that had been inadequ6tely ; 2 mot, and that it would remain inadequate until at least we saw 3 a sheltering plan. 1 4' BY MR. FLYNN: 5 Q Dr. Boros, do you wish to add anything to what Mr. 6 Thoman has told us about what he said at the meeting? 4 7 A (Dores) No, I think what Mr. Thomas said was ; i 8 accurato. 9 Q Okay. Mr. Thomas. j 10 A (Thomas) Next RAC member I have listed in Mr. Byron i 11 Keene from the Environmental Protection Agency. And he .. 12 indicated that the plan as presented on these items was - 1 _ () 13 adequate without consi'Jeration of sheltering; that with respect i 14 to the objection that I had articulated, that in his opinion 15 even if there were people sitting in cara, essentially l 16 unprotected for the entire duration of an accident, and they i 17 were sitting in the plume, they still would still not suffer l 18 any harm because of the nature of the radiological release. i 1 , I 19 And he said that the RAC acts as an advisor to FEMA, i 20 and FEMA could do what it wanted, but as far as he wau [ s F i 21 concerned it was adequate. i a 22 He also expressed some concern that while he felt the , t 23 plans would be enhanced by a sheltering option, that we should > i 4 24 be very careful about how that was melded into the decision ;
- 25 matrix, because he felt that sheltering option would be very, i
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r DOREG, THOMAS - DIRECT 8696 1 very rarely efficacious; that it would Denerally be raore 2 efficacious just to move the people out of the area. J 3 O Dr. Bores. i t 4 A (Bores) I did not remember attributinD to Mr. Keene L 5 your words there about people sitting on the beaches in the 6 cars would not suffer, could not suffer any radiological damage 7 as a result. I did not attribute that to him. 8 Q Well, Dr. Bores, what is your recollection on that 9 point? 10 A (Bores) I don' t recall hirn sayinD that. We 11 certainly talked about the PAGs, and we had discussed among the i 12 RAC certainly that it is possible in sever e i.ccidents that
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i 1 13 people would be exposed above the PAGs, and I' m sure he was 14 there for that. 15 A (Thomas) Maybe I can clarify this. It might make it I 16 easier for you, or it nt i gh t refresh your recollection. Perhaps ! 17 I did this out of sequence.
, t 18 The primary discussion of the concept that even if ;
j 19 people were sitting in the plume for the entire duration of the ! F 20 accidunt without shelter s the primary person who spoke to that i 21 was someone who is further done on this list, Mr. Warren Church l i , [ l 22 of the Food - md Drug Administ rat ion of the Department of Health i I ( 23 and Human Services. And he discussed that, and Byron j l c 24 prirdarily, Byron Keene, EPA, primarily concurred in that ! ! 25 statement. [ 4 r l Heritage Reporting Corporation I (202) 628-4888 ; l l
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t , DORES, THOMAS - DIRECT 8697 'j 1 Q Okay. Well, before you get to that, let me -- excuse 2 me. i 3 Let me ask Dr. Doron if you wish to add anything 4 furthur to Mr. Thomas' account of what Byron Keene said. 5 A (Bores) Okay. I know we Dot into a little bit the 6 exposuren and the possibility of exposure above the PAG 8. ; 7 Ed hau related to Warren Church the discussions on 8 PAGs, and I think Warren thought that the plan had to ) 9 esnontially natisfy the PAGs in order to be adequate. That was - 10 -the time of discussion there. l. 11 And then Byron Jumped in and said, no, that is not 12 the case. () 13 A (Thomas) If I can -- I' m sorry, folks. 14 If I could refresh your recollection, that wau way 15 earlier in the meetinD. i 16 A (Bores) No. \. 17 A (Thomas) Considerably earlier in the meeting that we , i 18 talked about -- that Warren said that the plan should be 19 designed so that you wouldn' t exceed the PAGs, the protective { ! f l 20 action guiden. , t 21 And I said, and you said, and Byron said, no, no, 22 that's not correct; that in fact you could very well have 23 people die in an accident; that it was not a question of not 24 meeting -- exceed the PAGs. ; 25 A (Dores) That's correct. l [ Heritage Reporting Corporation i (202) 628-4888 i l i
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i P'\ - DORES, THOMAS - DIRECT 8690 j 6~) n ; 1 A (Thomas) That was considerably before we sort of l 2 bottom-lined the discussion. 3 A (Bores) We' re talking about ' Thursday afternoon or 4 Friday roorning? E 5 MS. WEISS: If it's going to be on the record, you' re i 6 going to have to speak up. 7 JUDGE SMITH: We ought to decide -- if you want t o -- - 8 you have to decide what you' re testifying to and what you' re , , . 9 conferring about, because there is confusion. 10 Do you want to confer a racment? 11 MR. TURK: Why don' t we go off the record and let 4 12 them confer. J
) 13 JUDGE SMITH: Yeah, go off the record and see if you 14 can'--
15 (Discussion off the record.) 16 JUDGE SMITH: On the record. 17 MR. BACKUS: I just wanted to say that this procedure 18 that these witnesses are involved in has been set up, but I i 19 just want to note for the record at this point that we have a 20 fundamental position that was stated early on, that thu FEMA 21 pouition is the FEMA position, not the RAC position, and that 22 the deliberations on the RAC are it,elevant to the issues that 23 this Board has to decide. 24 Now I understand that that's been mentioned beforoi 25 and you have ruled on it, and said t h is importans, but I just I f Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
ra vuh l r {} BOREG, THOMAS - DIRECT wanted to make that ntatement of our position clear again. 6699 1 2 MR. TURK: Your Honor, if I may junt note one thing 3 in passing, and I don' t know where the Board ultimately will 4 come out in tortan of relevance of the RAC muoting, but early in 5 the proceeding Massachusettu Attorney General's office, who was G the lead on this contention, utated it didn' t rnatter whether f 7 the NRC mernber disaDreed with the RAC, because t hat 's ~~ w(#31, 8 I' d better get the wordu cut. But thure neums to be a nh a f ting 9 Dround,. or at one time NRC may have been perceived to be on the 10 outside of the majority opinion, and there was an attempt by i 11 the Intervenors to say, well, it doesn' t rnatter what NRC
- 12 thought. [
i () 13 And now if the whole RAC, or the majority of the RAC f 14 disagrees, then there is an attempt by the Intervonors to say, 15 well, that doesn' t matter. , s 16 That all (nay be true. I think we' ll have to leave } l l 17 that relevancy deterraination for the Board.
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- All 'I'm saying in that the regulatory i
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i 21 JUDGE SMITH: Unless you can elaborate upon that ; 1 22 argument at sorae other t irne, but this doeun' t hel p. I mean we } l i ; 23 discussed rebuttable presumption endlessly here, and if you ! r 4 i
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BORES, THOMAS - DIHECT 8700 4 1 If you have a rebuttable presumption is not a 1 2 conclusive presumption. It is a rebuttable presumption. 3 MR. BACKUS: I understand. 4 JUDGE SMITH: Some of the parties wish,perhaps to 5 rebut it. a 6 MR. BACKUS: I understand, and I agree that the ; 7 strength of the FEMA position is related to the analysis they, i 8 have done, the inputs'they have had, and the assumptions they 9 have made. 10 I' m just sayinD that the process by which the RAC l 11 decided, and what other members of the RAC may have decided in { 12 our view is irrelevant to the issues before this Board. ! 13 JUDGE GMITH: Well, I don' t understand, so proceed. L f) l 14 MR. DIGNAN: Your Honor, could we go off the record 15 on a matter, please? ! , 16 JUDGE SMITH: All ri D ht, off the record. ! t t 1 17- (Discussion off the record.) [ 18 JUDGE SMITH: Back on the record. -; 19 MR. TURK: Just for the record, I would note that the . t 20 pleading to which I referred was dated October 26, 1987. It , i
- 21 was Attorney General James M. Shannon's response to Applicants' l
, h 22 objection in the nature of a motion in limine to admission into f . t 23 avidence of certain port ions of FEMA's direct tuntimony No. 6 [ [ 24 : on sheltering contentions. f 1 I J 25 And at page 8 of that testimony it says. "The fact ! t Heritage Reporting Corporation j i (202) 628-4888 1 ,
DORES, THOMAS - DIRECT 870] 1 that one person on the RAC frorn the NRC may have disaDreed with a FEMA's interprutation of the planning standards, therefore, can , 3 have no relevance to whether FEMA's testimony is admissible." 4 4nd also Footnote 5 appended there which -- 5 MS. WEISS: Well, there's nothing to be ruled on 6 before the Board, in there? There's no object ion. 7 JUDGE SMITH: Well, Mr. Backus is throwing sorne chaff 8 into it. I don' t know what his purpose i s, but I just don' t 9 know what you' re seeking frorn the Board. 10 MR. DACKUS: My purpose is to note on the record at 11 this t irne t hat I have an objection to this proceedinD on the 12 grounds of relevancy. That's my purpose. () 13 JUDGE SMITH: All right, relevance. Overruled. 14 DY MR. FLYNN: 15 Q Mr. T hornas, by rny count we' ve talked about five RAC 16 roern burs , Paul Lutz, Herb Fish, you, Dr. Bores and Byron Keene. 17 In roy count correct? 18 A ( Thornau ) Yes, it is. 19 O Okay. Nurnber six ? 20 MR. TURK: Excuse roe. Are we done with EPA, Byron , 21 Keene? 22 There had been sorne conf usion au to what the position 23 was before we went off the record. 24 THE WITNESS: ( Th ornas ) Okay. I think that there j 25 should be no confusion as to what the position was. , Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 6
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l , t DORES, THOMAG - DIRECT 870a I 1 There is a -- let me reacticulate what the position. 2 was. The position is quite clear. The EPA said that the plans 3 were adequate even though they didn' t have shelter; that the [ 4 shelter option would be an enhancement provided the 5 decisionmaking matrix, and part of the plan is very, very ' 6 clearly didn' t indicate this as a preferred option except in 7 very, very unusual circumstances. 8 Further, I have a recollection, a very clear 9 recollection of a dialogue between rayuelf, the repretentative l 10 of the Food and Drug Administration, Warren Church, and Byron i 11 Keene of EPA, as to the consequences to that segment of the ) 12 population that are the day trippers whose only apparent
)- 13 protective action is evacuation if they weren' t able to !
14 evacuate prior to sitting in the plume possibly for the entire ; 15 duration of the plume. 16 And Dr. Dores and I have conferred of the record, and ! 17 he does not remember that part of the conversation. I { 18 certainly do, and it certainly happened. l 15 Perhaps this would be a good moment, if I may, to 20 somewhat diDress. 21 It's the nature of these ineet inDs. There are seven 22 or nine RAC memburu, depending upon how many show up. There { 23 are several other people that are usually there. Sotne of the ! l 24 agencies send two or three representatives. And it happens in i 25 these meetings that they are not absolutely run by cornplete i
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b DOREG, THOMAS ~ DIRECT 870:; 1 parliamentary procedure. There is colloquy and chatter back 2 and forth. 3 And in the course of a two-day mouting, people that 4 just simply not going to remember -- 5 JUDGE SMITH: Yes, we undurstand, wo understand. 6 DY MR. FLYNN: l 7 Q The next one? 8 A (Thomas) Okay, the next one I think logically should 9 be Warren Church of the Food and Drug Administration of the 10 De part tnent of Health and Human Servicen. ! 11 And his position was ossentially identical to that 12 articulated by Byron Keene of the Envir7nmental Protection ! () 13 AgencyI to wit, that the plans were adequate without , 14 consideration of sheltert that sheltering miDht enhance the 15 plans provided that the decisionmaking matrix was very, very 16 clear that this would be a viable protective action only some , 17 of the time. 18 Mr. Church expressed some very real concern that : k } 19 attempting to shelter that population for the bulk of the . 20 accident spect rums would actually give them a larger doce than f 21 they would othurwise receivo of they just attempted to evacuate 22 as best they could. 23 G Dr. bores, are you indicating your agreement with 24 that? ! ! I 25 A (Bores) I think so. ! i ! Heritage Reporting Corporation t (202) 628-4888 ;
4 ( P UOREG, THOMAS - DIRECT 8709 i b 1 0 The seventh member? 2 A (Thomas) The next member who waa prusent ~~ excuse 3 me, can we go off the record for just a second? I beg your 4 pardon. i 5 JUDGE SMITH: Yes. 6 (Discussion off the record.) < 7 THE WITNESS: (Thomas) The next representativu is 8 Mr. William Patterson from the Department of the Interior. 9 Mr. Patterson left the meeting early after we had 10 concluded I would say approximately half of the time wo spent j 11 discussing this, one-half to 40 percent of the time we spent . 12 discussing this inuun, 13 He indicated to me that ho had made up his mind that f) 14 the plans clearly did not provide a range of protectivo , 15 actions, and went on to say that it was his f ooling t hat, 16 "These guys just can' t gut t h e *, containment out of their i 17 heads." 18 BY MR. FLYNN: l 19 Q Excuse me, was that expressed in the RAC meetinD7 20 A (Thomas) No, it was not. It was -- we had broken 21 for lunch, and he came up to toe and said that this was his , i 22 feeling, and he didn' t feel that hu needed to stay for any more 23 of thu meeting, and he had other businent. , i 24 O Did he take any part in the discussion in the meeting f 1 25 on this issue? l I?') 1U Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
I - (~} BORES, THOM1S - DIRECT 870b t/ 1 'A (Thomas) I' d need a minute to think. 2 I honest ly don' t c' mber him tak'ag any part in this 3 part or the meeting, in this discussion. 4 Q Okay, and the -- 5 A (Thomas) He may have. 6 Q Let me ask Dr. Bores if he wishes to add anything to. 7 that. 8 A (Bores) No, I don' t think Mr. Patterson said 9 anything during this portion of the meeting. 10 I would also, I think, in terms of the discussion 11 indicate that I thought he only stayed for maybe 10, 10 or 15 12 percent, because he clearly left in the afternoon. We had not (') 13 really gotten very solidly into the beach issues in the 14 morning. 15 Q Mr. Thomas, the eighth RAC member? 16 A (Thomas) The next and the final RAC member who was 17 present was Mr. Stanley Wasserman from the National Weather 18 Service, representing the Department of Commerce. And he 19 indicated that the plans as presented were not adequate without 20 the maximum reasonable and feasible sheltering plan that could 21 be achieved. 22 And he discussed with us at some length his 23 experiences involved in hurricane evacuation planning, and his 24 great concern that as he had seen in Hurricane Charlie where 25 they actually had a very large queue of people attempting to O Heritage Reporting Corporation I (202) 628-4888
7"3 BORES, THOMAS - DIRECT' 8706 LJ 1 evacuate a certain area, and there was no alternative plan for 2 sheltering these people in what we in the hurricane evacuation 3 business refer to as a vertical sheltering. 4 It's not as desirable as clearing people out of the 5 area into an upland shelters, but if they' re trapped, as it 6 were, on a barrier island or a barrier beach, the next best 7 thing is to evacuate them into substantial hetels and motels 8 and condominiums, apartment buildings, and that's known as a 9 vertical evacuation. 10 And he felt that based on his experiences with 11 hurricanes, it was very, very important that the best possible 12 sheltering plan be in place.
) 13 He went on to emphasize that he did not feel that the 14 planning standards of NUREG-0654 required the construction of 15 new shelters; that he was saying that what he was looking for 16 was to maximize the use of existing space.
17 Q Dr. Bores? 18 A (Bores) I think his words were if you use the best 19 available shelter. i 20 A (Thomas) Talked about maximizing a plan to use the 21 best of the shelters. We talked about that some of the 22 shelters would only give you a 10 percent dose reduction 23 w.,ereas others, other more substantial buildings might give you 24 up to a 40 or 60 pe rce nt ., and it was at that point we were t l 25 talking in the RAC collectively about a plan that would make l
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/~s. DORES, THOMAS - DIRECT 8707 .U 1 use of the 7est shelters first.
2 And those were the -- the final RAC member from 3 Region 1, from the Department of Agriculture, was unable to 4 attend the meeting because of shortage of travel funds. 5 Q Mr. Thomas, you' ve referred to the large sheets of 6 paper on the wall behind you. Can you tell us what those are? 7 A (Thomas) Those were notes that were taken during the 8 meeting to help guide the course of discussion, indicating what 9 various people were saying as we moved towards the bottom line. 10 They were taken by one of my staff members, Mr. John Quinlan. 11 And if it was helpful, we could have them transcribed and 12 placed into the record, or whatever. () 13 MR. FLYNN: Well, I will not offer them at this time, 14 but I do not object if any other party wishes to have thct 15 done. 16 MR. TURK: Perhaps we car, ask that if the witnesses 17 would take an opportunity to look at them and see if there is 18 anything else on those charts which they would like to refer to 19 in their testimony, if there is something there that refreshus 20 their recollection to something they have not yet already said, 21 and then we' d have a complete record. P2 THE WITNESS: (Thomas) There is nothing there that 23 assists me in further recalling anything. 24 MR. FLYNN: At this point my direct examination is 25 concluded, and the witnesses are available for cross O Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
7~i. BORES, THOMAS - DIRECT 8700 L_) i examination. 2 JUDGE HARBOUR I' d like to ask a question for 3 clarification here. 4 Several times you characterized people's statements 5 as approving, or believing that the plans were adequate even if 6 there were no provisions for sheltering. Now sometimes you 7 simply stated it as I st'ated it. Other times you said 8 sheltering of the transient population of the day trippers. 9 Now, was there a distinction in the, or did you 10 intend to convey a distinction between plans being adequate 11 without sheltering provisions at all, and provisions for a , 12 shelter of the day trippers? 'r"' ' y_ 13 THE WITNESS: (Thomasi Thank you for asking that. 14 No, I did not. The entire discussion that Dr. Bores 15 a r,d I just talked about focused on the beach population, the 16 transient beach population and the folks that would have access 17 to very inadequate shelter in that it was unwinterized and . 18 perhaps had holes in the windows and whatever. 19 Ent irely we' re talking about the transient beach 20 population. 21 JUDGE HARBOUR: All right, thank you. E324 22 (Continued on next page.) 23 24 25 Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
DL1 8709 1 JUDGE SMITH: Is that your presentatior? E 2 MR. FLYNN: Yes, Your Honor. 3- JUDGE SMITH: Either of you gentlemen think of 4 anything that wasn' t covered, now that you' ve had a moment ? 5 All right. 6 JUDGE LINENBERGER: Perhaps I could Det a 7 clarification on another point. Mr. Thomas, as I understood 8 your words, I think you said that the list of people you went 9 through was in no particular order. 10 And so I am asking you is, are the notes that you 11 just referreo to in listing these people in no particular order 12 notes you generated for the purpose of these comments today, or
) 13 are they notes taken during the meeting?
14 THE WITNESS (Thomas): The notes that I was reading 15 from and making extensive reference were prepared by me over 16 the lunch break from the notes that I had taken at the meeting 17 and from my recollections, and they really were just sort of f 18 free-flowing and I don' t know why I chose the order I did. It i 19 was just as it came into my head. 20 JUDGE LINENBERGER: Thank you. l l 21 JUDGE SMITH: Mr. 019skey? 22 THE WITNESS (Bores): I was going to add one thing. l I 23 The question had come up earlier, I guess, whether we had any 24 new technical information to date, and I guess during this l l 25 meeting, relative to the beach sheltering.
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i And from my perspective we did not see anything new. 2 JUDGE SMITH: Mr. Thomas agrees. 3 THE WITNESS (Thomas): Yes, I certainly do. 4 JUDGE SMITH: All right, Mr..Oleskey? 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. OLESKEY: 7 Q Let rne direct my questions to Mr. Thomas for 8 expedition unless I indicate otherwise. 9 Mr. Thomas, there had not been a meeting of the 10 Region I RAC since July 30, is that right? 11 O ( T hornas) That is correct. 12 O There was a written agenda that was circulated prior () 13 to this rneet ing, last week in Washington, is that right? 14 A (Thomas) No, sir, there was a written agenda that 15 was prepared, the roset ing took place in Boston. 16 O Oh. 17 A (Thomas) As our meetings take place. The agenda was 18 circulated, as I said, by mernorandum dated Decernber 11th. 19 Q And between July 30th, and last week, at the RAC 20 meeting were any other documents exchanged -- 21 MR. TURK: Objection, Your Honor. 22 MR. OLESKEY: -- between RAC roembers bearing on the 23 beach population? , 24 M R. TURK: I think what the purpose of this [ 25 examination was, was to establish what happened at this latust
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BORES, THOMAS - CROSS 871 l 1 F( L_ '"1 1 RAC meeting. What Mr. Oleskey is doing, quite artfully, is 2 trying to develop some lines of discovery which go beyond what 3 happened at this RAC rneet ing. 4 MR. OLESKEY: I don' t see how I can interrogate 5 intelligently about what happened at the RAC meetinD, unless I 6 find out what information the RAC members had subsequent to 7 July 30 bearing on the beach population, so 1 am doing that. 8 You can call it discovery, or anything you want, but 9 to ma it's appropriate. 10 MR. TURK: The probl ern i s, you know, normally we' d 11 have an oppot'tunity to seu questions directed to us through 12 interrogatories or requests for production of documents. We are f-w 13 now testing these two individuals' recollection far beyond what 14 happened on a particular day or two days of meetings. 15 And if Mr. Oleukey wants to formulate some questions 16 and put thern out in a notice of deposition and require subpoena 17 duces tecum for production of documents, we can do that, but -- 18 JUDGE SMITH: Well, what if the question were limited l '3 to, ' were any docurnents distributed for use in the roeoting? 20 MR. TURK: And used. 21 JUDGE SMITH: For use in the rneut ing. 22 MR. TURK: For use and used? 23 JUDGE SMITH: For use in the raenting. 24 MR. TURK: Yes, I am adding to that. 25 JUDGE SMITH: For use and used in the rouet ing. Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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(~T BORES, THOMAS - CROSS 8712: L) 1 Well, let's ask t' hat and see what happens? 2 MR. OLESKEY: Well, let me ask'it in two parts. 3 JUDGE SMITH: All right. 4 BY MR. OLESKEY: 5 Q Between July 30 and these meetings last week, were 6 any documentu bearing on the beach population and distributed 7 to the RAC for use at a subsequent RAC meetinD7 8 ; A (Thomas) You' re talking about the Seabrook beach 9 issue only? 10 Q Yes. 11 A (Thomas) Okay, the answer to your question is no, 12 and may I have permission to elaborate on that? () 13 JUDGE SMITH: How do you elaborate on no? 14 Go ahead. I would like to see. 15 MR. OLESKEY: To the extent when I' m quest ioning, it 1 16 in my deposition discovery and the Board is advisory, in 17 offect, why doesn' t Mr. Thomas ask me rather than the Board or 18 anybody else whether he wants elaboration? 19 If I do and Turk or Flynn or somebody doesn' t, 20 . they' l l say no, but if I felt -- I do in this case, certainly. 21 In other words, I want to proceed as much as we could 22 in deposition format without having the Board dragged in every 23 t ime there's a question, just as I would if you weren' t here, f 24 and there was a deposition. 25 So i f that's agreeable, let's do it that way. 1 Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
7"'g DORES, THOMAS - CROSS 8713 L_) i think we' ll move along more rapidly. 2 MR. TURK: Your Honor, it's 4 :25, not that we' ve 3 proceeded too long, I don' t think we have. We' ve just beDun, 4 really, to have the direct examination. 5 But there may be questions that we can address that G discuss what happened at the meeting. And then leave as a 7 second batch, and see where we are in time, things that may 8 have led up to that meetinD, or which we consider in addition. 9 JUDGE SMITH: Do you realize I spent much of my lunch 10 hour trying to explain to the technical people on this Board 11 that Ir,wyers really do make a contribution, too, and I didn' t 12 cor.vince them and I' m going to have to spend the rest of the [l Nd 13 evening -- 14 (Laughter.) 15 JUDGE SMITH: Go ahead, just go ahead. 16 MR. DIGNAN: We have to do the same thing with the 17 client, Your Honor. l l 18 (Laughter.) 19 BY MR. OLESKEY: i 20 Q Go ahead, Mr. Thomas. 1 21 A (Thomas) I' d just like to say that it was 22 unfortunate there was nothing more developed. When I left the 23 RAC meeting on July 30th, it was my intention preparing a 24 detailed document on this subject and there was simply, there l l 25 was not time to do that.
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\/ 1 1 Q I take it from your t est irnony a rnoment ago that every 1 2 agency was represented of the agencien on this regional RAC 3 except for agriculture?
4 A (Thomas) That is correct. 5 May I point out to you that you had suggested that 6 you were going to ask a two part question. I answered only 7 Part A. 8 JUDGE SMITH: Well, yes, but Part 2 was -- all right, 9 let's hear it, in there any explanation for Part 2? 10 THE WITNESS (T homas) : You can understand rny desire 11 to be very careful. Please. There was a considerable packet 12 of infortnat ion distribut ed at the meeting for use during the g 13 meeting.
!v) 14 BY MR. OLESKEY:
15 Q Now, let me move backward or forward in sequence, 16 depending on your perspective, and ask who prepared and 17 distributed inforraat ion at the meeting? 18 A (Thomas) It was prepared by my staff, principally by 19 John Dolan and Elizabeth Dionne, with input frorn Robert , 20 Rospenda. To the best of roy recollection, well, certainly with l 21 respect to the Seabrook beachen, it wan entirely a compilation 22 of documents that had been previously distributed to the RAC 23 rnem b ers. 24 There were also on some of the other subject rna t t er s , ! 25 there were sorne things that perhapu the RAC was seeing for the 1 (')S
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U"' BOR58, THOMAS - CROSS 8710 i first time. 2 Q Well, with respect to the Seabrook beaches, what was 3 in the cornpilat ion, as best you recall? 4 A (Thomas) Let me emphasize, this is only as best as I 5 recall. 6 O Of course. 7 A (Thomas) There was the mornorandum which FEMA had 8 distributed that was dated Decernber 31st, 1985. There was Dr. 9 Bores's second rnernorandum. I don' t recall if his first 10 memorandurn was d ist ribut ed, and he doesn' t recall either. 11 Thrre was the -- I believe Attorney Flynn is going to 12 give me a full packet here. 13 MR. TURK: Incidentally I believe the second roerno 14 frorn Dr. Boros was dated June 4, 1987. 15 MR. DIGNAN: Your Honor, can we Do off the record, 16 while Mr. Thornas does that? I have got a live TV carnera down 17 ray back again. Could something be done about it? 18 MR. TRAFICONTE: It rnust be you, Mr. Dignan. 19 MR. DIGNAN: I attract all types. 20 JUDGE SMITH: We do have a prob l ern. Lawyers are 21 entitled to have absolute privacy at their work table, and your a 22 carnera is right on his notes, and it's just not tolerable. 23 You' l l have t o rnovo. 24 JUDGE LINENBERGER: I might add here that the noine 25 frorn that carnera is irri t at ing rne, sitting here. And it Te, I Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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1 shouldn' t, but it is. 2 JUDGE SMITH: Anybody else want to dump on the 3 cameraman? 4 (Laughter.) 5 JUDGE SMITH: Take a position over there in the 6 corner. , 7 Off the record. 8 (Discussion off the record.) l ! 9 JUDGE SMITH: While we were off the record, you got a 10 packet of documents? 11 THE WITNESS ( T hornas) : Yes, I do. That refreshes both 12 our recollections. The docurnents distributed were a memorandum . () 13 or a letter from Dr. Bores to me, dated March 18, 1987; a 14 memorandum from Stanley Wasserman to Jack Dolan of rny staff, 15 dated March 6, 1987: -- 16 MS. WEISS: Could you slow down just a bit, please? 17 THE WITNESS (Thomas): Yes. Shall I repeat that? 18 MS. WEISS: Yes, thank you. 19 THE WITNESS (Thomas) : A memorandum from Stanley 20 Wasserrnan of the National Weather Service to Jack Dolan of rny l 21 staff, dated March 6, 1987. 22 MS. WEISS: Thank you. 23 THE WITNESS ( Thornas) : A Intter from Robert Rospenda, ! 24 who is a consultant from the Argonne National Laboratory, the 25 letter is dated April 14, 1987, and it in to Jack Dolan of rny O l Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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[~] .LJ BORES, THOMAS - CROSS 8717 1 staff. A mernorandum from me to the regional assistance 2 committee and the radiological emergency preparedness task 3 force. The memorandum is dated' June 17, 1987, concerning FEMA's 4 Seabrook ASLB submission. 5 A letter to rae from George Bickerton of the United 6 States Depart roent of Agriculture, dated March 17, 1987. A 7 letter to me f rorn Dr. Bores dated June 4, 1987, and it is 8 signed for hirn by Thomas T. Martin, his supervisor. 9 And there are attachments to that. There are -- 10 MR. BROCK: Could you repeat that last one? 11 THE WITNESS (Thomas): June 4, 1987. And there are 12 nine pages that go with that. ,f 13 w( s) I think I rnay have referred to that during the course 14 of the testimony as what we call Bores 2. No discospect meant. 15 That's what we talked about in the rneut ing. You have to have a 16 little shorthand for some of this stuff. 17 The memorandurn f rorn rne to the regional assistance 18 committee and the radiological emergency preparedness task 19 force on Seabrook Ernergency Plans, dated Decernber 31, 1985. A 20 memoranduro to the Chairman of the regional assistance comrnittee 21 frorn Paul Lutz, dated January 9, 1986. 22 MS. WEISS: And that's the chairinan, is that you? 23 THE WITNESS (Thomas): Yes, t hat 's rne. 24 A letter from George Bickerton of the Department of 25 Agriculture to rne, dated January 14, 1985. A letter from 7' 3d Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
i (~} BORES, THOMAS - CROSS 8718
'% J 1 Warren Church of the Food and Drug Administration, I' m sorry, 2 this is a memorandum, U. S. government memorandum, from Warren 3 Church of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration. Bob is 4 helping me out here. Your government is not always absolutely 5 accurate.
6 The previous letter that I made reference to from 7 George Bickerton of the Department of Agriculture is, in fact, 8 dated January 14, 198-- well, no, it might be 1986. It 9 certainly was 1986, regardless of whatever the date tu that's 10 on here. It clearly was sent out January 14, 1986. 11 Going back to the next document, it in a memorandum 12 from Warren Church of the Food and Drug Administration to me, () 13 dated January 15, 1986. 14 A memorandum to me dated January 13, 1986, from Fred 15 B. Olson, a health physicist who was formerly employed by FEMA 16 in Region I and is now retired. 1 17 A letter or, yes, a letter from Dr. Boron to me, 18 dated February 18, 1987, which in referred to us in shorthand 19 as Borou 1, 10 pages that go with that, pluu an attachment. 20 MS. WEISS: Could you give us the date of Dores 1 21 again? 22 THE WITNESS (T homas) : Yes. 23 MS. WEISS: We have three opinions here. 24 THE WITNESS (Thoman): March, February 18, 1987. 25 And Dr. Boren's letter of that date included a 10 O Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
7'"g BORES, THOMAS - CROSS 8719 U 1 page attachment, plus another attachment which is the NRC 2 response to the, what is known as the, three misconceptions, 3 the Tom Dignan three misconceptions memo. l l 4 And that's -- do you want to know exactly the number l 1 5 of pages of that? 6 Proposed changes to the RAC review, the current RAC 7 review that had been prepared by Bob Rospenda, at my direction 8 in the Argonne National Lab, and that consists of -- do you 9 want to know the exact number of pages? About 10 pages. 10 MR. OLESKEY: Fine. 11 THE WITNESS (Thomas): And finally, two, three 12 memoranda to Sherwin Turk. One from Dr. Bores, one from
-n)
-{ 13 William Lazarus, and one frorn John Schumachur, all of the NRC 14 and all dated October 15, 1987.
15 And that was the stuff that had anything to do with 16 the beach population. , 17 BY MR. OLESKEY: 18 Q That is the selection criteria you used for raaterials 19 that the RAC members had exchanged over time among themselves 20 E aring on the Seabrook beach population? 21 A (Thomas) I' m not sure I know what you mean. 22 It was all the stuff that we had that was available. 23 I had -- I' m glad that I had this to refresh my recollection, 24 because there was one thing that the RAC got at the meeting 25 that they had never seen before, and that was the throu Heritage Reporting Corporation ; (202) 628-4888
(x BORES, THOMAS - CROSS 8720 1 mornoranda from the NRC to Sherwin Turk, dated October 15th. 2 O What about either of the Stone & Webster surveys, 3 were those in the hands of the RAC at this t irne? 4 A (Th ornas) The -- 5 MR. FLYNN: I didn' t hear the question. 6 BY MR. OLESKEY: 7 O The question was, was either one of the Stone & 8 Webster surveys in the hands of the RAC as of this ineatinD7' 9 A (Thomas) The answer to your question is yes. 10 0 Both of them? 11 A (Thornas) No. 12 The second one, which was submitted by the State of () 13 New Harnpuhire in either late August or early Septernber, I 14 always get confused on the dates. August? 15 JUDGE LINENBERGER: August. 16 THE WITNESS (Thomas): Thank you. 17 Was in the hands of the RAC members. The other one, 18 the earlier survey had never been distributed. 19 MR. OLESKEY: Now, to the extent that this is a 20 deposition, what I' d normally do is to have those documents 21 which the panel, the RAC, had with them marked as 22 identification exhibit at the deposition, and I would like to 23 propose that we do that here, so that they are available in the 24 interirn after this week to whomever wants them arnong the 25 parties. O Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
BORES, THOMAS - CROSS 872 7~} IL~.s 1 So, whatever procedure we need, Judge Staith, could we 2 do that at this time, mark the package as a whole? l 3 JUDGE SMITH: Does anybody object to that? 4 If they want to give them to you, that's their 5 business. 6 MR. DIGNAN: Are we goin0 to get copies, or what are 7 we going to do? 8 MR. OLESKEY: I' m going to ask to make copies, Tom. 9 MR. TURK: Your Honor, I haven' t seen the package as 10 it exists. I' ve seen many of these memos and letters. But I 11 don't see any conceivable reason why I would object. So I will 12 pass as long as FEMA has no objection. 13 JUDGE SMITH: No, you don' t have any problem, they
)
14 are willing to give them to you. However, we now have nine 15 fingers of discovery routes that you might be inclined to go 16 into, and don' t think that you are. 17 We can follow these different agencies all the way 18 down forever, and we are not going to do that. 19 MR. OLESKEY: Mr. Thoman, if you could just mark that 20 folder with the documents that you' ve described with t od ay' s 21 date and your initialu? 22 Not the individual documents, but the folder that I 23 think you took them from. 24 MR. FLYNN: Defore I agree to release the entire 25 folder, I' d like to establish whether there are other documents e, 11 Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
BORES, THOMAS - CROSS 8722 (V~j 1 which do not respond to your question. What I' m agreeing to 2 release are the documents which Mr. Thoman has J ust identified. 3 JUDGE SMITH: On the beach inuue? 4 MR. OLESKEY: Yeu. 5 JUDGE SMITH: There may be others. G MR. OLESKEY: Th at ' s fine. 7 JUDGE SMITH: Why don' t you just take the packet to 8 be identified and -- all right, you have removed others, 9 extraneous. 10 BY MR. OLESKEY: 11 O What you have left are all the documents, together 12 with the agenda, that were distributed to the RAC members last () 13 Thursday when these meetings began in Boston, in that right? 14 A (Thamas) Yes, that is correct. 1r Q Okey. 16 Why don' t you put that aside, because 1 am not going 17 to deal with that now. I just wanted to have it marked and 18 ' copied for counsel. 19 MR. DIGNAN: Could 1 ask what is going to happen now? 20 In Mr. Flynn undertaking to give un a copy, or are we uupposed 21 to have somebody copy hin toniyht, or what? 22 JUDGE SMITH: I understand Mr. Oleskey had 23 volunteered to do that. That was one of the -- 24 MR. OLESKEY: Sure. 25 JUDGE SMITH: When you take custody of it, that Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
7- BORES, THOMAS - CROSS- 8723 b-1 was -- 2 MR. OLESKEY: I' ll be happy to have that done. 3 AssuminD there's a copying facility open tonight; if not, it 4 may be sometime tornorrow rnorning. 5 JUDGE SMITH: Well, would you prefer to have Mr. 6 Dignan's -- you have an of fice with copying facilities, would 7 you prefer to have them take custody of them? 8 MR. OLESKEY: I' d be happy to have Mr. Dignan copy. l 9 MR. DIGNAN: He' d love to. E 10 MR. OLESKEY: We have the old tyre of copying rnachine i 11 here that copies one paDe at a time, by hand. 12 MR. DIGNAN: Can I have a show of har.Js on how many
) 13 copies are desired? Five, six. You get the originals back, 14 Flynn.
i 15 BY MR. OLESKEY: ! 16 Q Mr. Thomas, were all the agency representatives who 17 were present last Thursday in Boston the representatives for 18 those agencies to the RAC7 19 A ( Thornau ) Yes, they were. I had, in an earlier 20 t est i rnony, elaborated on Dr. Bores's special status. I had 21 always been instructed previously by the NRC that he wau not 22 the RAC morn be r, but the RAC representative for Seaorook. I 23 don' t know if that's important to anyone. I heard hirn 24 introduce himself as the RAC rnernber f or Seabrook, no+%s roay 25 be a totally ephemeral distinction. l r Heritage Reporting Corporation [ (202) 628-0888
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(~T BORES, THOMAS - CROSS 872L
%.J 1 Other than that, the answer in yes.
2 O That has come up before, Dr. Bores, is there a 3 distinction that should be made -- 4 A (Bores) I have never heard the distinction before. 5 Q -- between being a representative for Seabrook and 6 the member, and a member who in not you, to this regional RAC, 7 generally? 8 A (Bores) I am the Seabrook representative on the RAC. 9 O For the NRC? 10 A (Bores) Sure, yes, so any Seabrook issue that comes 11 up before the RAC, I am the NRC representative. 12 Now, if that makes me a Seabrook member or a Seabrook () 13 representative, I use the termu interchangeably. 14 Q For clarification, do you uit on this regional RAC 15 for purponen of evaluating Vermont Yankee or Pilgrim in 16 Maunachusetts, or anytning else in Region 17 17 A (Bores) If only asked to do that, but we have 18 another member who has that responsibility. 19 Q Now, Mr. Thomas, -- 20 MR. TURK: May I just ank, just no everything iu ! 21 clear, with respect to that last question. 22 In there some other NRC member of the RAC with [ 23 respect to Seabrook, other than yourself? l l 24 THE WITNESS (Boren): No, I' m the member for I 25 Seabrook. l ['% (_/ Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
BORES, THOMAS - CROSS 8725 lL.J[~} 1 BY MR. OLESKEY: 2 Q And have been since 1985, or so? 3 A (Bores) Since '85, and I had been before that, also. 4 O Okay. 5 A (Bores) So there was a change in responsibilities. 6 Q Mr. Thoman, what t ime did the toest ing begin on 7 Thursday? 8 A (Thoman) I didn' t note a particular time. It was 9 approximately 10:25. 10 Q And how long did the RAC do business, if you will, on 11 Thursday, of last week? t 12 A (Thomas) It, well, it sort of started to fade out ! u) [ 13 about a quarter to 4:00. Well, one of the roernberu had to leave 14 just prior to the lunch break, which as I recall was 15 approximately 1 :00 o' clock. That was Mr. Patterson frorn the 16 Depart rnent of the Interior. 17 In addition, Mr. Keene and Warren Church had to leave 18 approxirnately a quarter to 4:00, 3:30 to a quarter to 4:00 to 19 catch their riden home. 20 But we continued our discussions until 5:00 or so, 21 thereaboutu, a quarter to 5:00, something like that. 22 And then we renurned the following morning at 23 approxirnately 9:00 o' clock and went till 12:00 or thereabouts. 24 (Continued on the next page.) 25 l Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
yr 7~T BORES, THOMAS - CROSS 8726 h-] T326 1 Q Of the -- Dr. Bores, do you want to add something? 2 A (Bores) Yes, I was Just going to say, also on Friday 3 when we reconvened, we were less mr. Wasserman and Mr. Fish. 4 A (Thomas) And Mr. Patterson. 5 A (Bores) And Mr. Patterson, as well. 6 Q You were dotan three people on Friday? 7 4 (Thomas) Well, four if you count the Department of 8 Agricult ure representat ive who hadn' t been able to make i* at 9 all. 10 Q That isn' t Wasserman? 11 A (Thomas) Fish, as well as Agriculti.tre. 12 O And A Driculture. h) [ 13 Was there a lunch break in which business was not 14 done on Thursday? 15 A (Thomas) It was my observat ion we didn' t do it 16 collegia 11y, but business continued to be done by groups of it. 17 We didn' t do it as a Droup. We went next door to a cafeteria, 18 and we all ate at different tables, but business was continued 19 a pace. 20 Q Just dealing now with time allocated to the beach 21 subject, i f you began at 10:30 on Thursday, when did you begin 22 meaningful discussi..n on the beach sheltering issue as a group? 23 A (Thoman) My best recollection would be approximately 24 11:30, and we went until 1:00. Then we split up for lunch, 25 continued the discussion. I don't know what was talked about Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
'"T BORES, THONAS - CROSS 8727 (a
1 in other groups particularly, but I believe that that was the 2 subject of lively discussion from comments after lunch, and 3 then we went until about 5:00, although the discussion was 4 somewhat impaired by the absence of two of the very important
- 5. members.
6 Q And then Friday, the three hours, was that all on the 7 beach population? 8 A (Thomas) No, very little was on the beach 9 population. What the purpose of the Friday discussion -- we 10 already had had the vote on Thursday after Warren and Byron 11 Keene -- both Warren Church and Byron Keene left, and the 12 purpose -- the discussion Friday morning was to bring them up () 13 to speed, to sumrnarize the rernaining items of discussion, get 14 their input and close the subject, and try and get throudh the 15 rest of the agenda. 16 I may just note for the record that it was snowing i 17 very, very heavily on that Friday, and that was the reason that 18 we ceased our discussions as early as we did. We normally 19 would have gone into the night to try and resolve the other 20 items, but we hud to get people to the airports and it was i 21 irnport ant that they get h orne. 22 O So you had about an hour and a half of discuusion as 23 a group on Thursday morning on the beach population, 11:30 to 24 1:00; intermittent diucussion in urnaller groups at lunch time, 25 and then another three hours in the afternoon. Have I got it Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
4 t 's BORES, THOMAS - CRUSS 872a ELJ 1 right? 2 A (Tnomas) Well, I - yes, that is toy test imony. Dr. 3 Bores -- 4 Q Dr. Bores? 5 A (Bores) I think it only went about an hour or so. 6 We really only laid the basis in the morning, and then we broke 7 for lunch, because obviously we went together to it. 8 O Okay. 9 A (Thomas) I won' t quibble over an hour and a half. 10 I' m fairly sure we started about 11:30 and broke about 1:00. 11 Q And then three hours or so, Dr. Bores, in the 12 afternoon?
.n 13 A (Bores) That's right. .(
14 A (Thomas) Well, yeah, voah. 15 A (Bores) The afternoon was sort of devoted to the 16 beach sheltering. 17 Q Okay, and when did the vote come in that sequence, 18 Mr. Thomas' ' 19 A (Thomas; Approximately 4:15, 4:30, 4:00, something 20 like that, we started to go around the table and vote. 21 Q And the statements that you summarized earlier this 22 afternoon, so and so said this, stated a position and then took 23 a vote, were those the statements that were made at 4:15 or 24 4:30, or were you summarizing positions that had been stated 25 throughout the day?
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Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
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(^ji BORES, THOMAS - CROSS 8729
'w) 1 A (Thomas) To the best of my recollection -- let me 2 think about that first. Let me get that out if that's :
3 important. 4 With one exception, to the best of my recollection, 5 they were all statements that were made during the summary, but 6 there may well have been something that I threw in there-that I 7 thought was particularly important that had been made earlier 8 in the day. 9 The one exception is the Department of 10 Transport at ion's represent at ives thought that there never would 11 be an accident; you had to look at the containment, was made 12 r.. ich ear l i c e in the day, and then again really after the vote () 13 had been taken at the end of the day, but not really during 14 that time of summary discussion. 15 Q Dr. Bores. 16- A (Bores) I would characterize the statements as being 17 generally attributable throughout the discuouion period, 18 because your statements and my statements came up very early, 19 and there was a lot of other input. 20 A (Thomas) Dr. Bores has a Dood point. Thank you. 21 What I read out was essentially the opening statement 22 that we had made. I did have it reiteraced at the time of the 23 vote. I believe Dr. Dores essentially reiterated his, or his 24 agency's posit ion at the same time. 25 But I mean it is possible there is some stuff O l Heritage ReportinD Corporation i (202) 628-4888 1 l
I l BORES, THOMAS - CROSS 8730 l
-a
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1 interwoven here. It would take -- we could do an exhaustive i i 2 analysis with some of the other people and try and forret out 3 who said what when. l 4 0 You said that you had, if I understood you, made some 5 notes at lunchtime today from notes you took during the course 6 of the meeting? 7 A (Thomas) That is correct, from notes I took during 8 the course of the meeting, and also my recollections and those 9 recollections were enhanced by a discussion with FEMA Attorney 10 Flynn. 11 Q Who was also present? , 12 A (Thomas; Who was also present. [) 13 Q Both day?
, sa.
14 A (Thomas) Both days. 15 May I say though that it is still my independent 1 16 recollection. It's hard to write everything down when you are ; 17 speaking and conducting a rnee+ ' - and my notes were somewhat 18 fragmentary. Mr. Flynn wa. a t>! : > sist me in recalling. 19 O So is it fair to .e, , u took a number of pages 20 of notes during those two daye m.1 iuced them for purposes 21 of trying to give us sotne help t x.., to one sheet? 22 A (Thomas) That -- yes, that is correct. 23 Again, I was focusing on what we would call the 24 bottom line. The discussions sort of threaded their way around 25 as discussions go. Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
i l (~'s BORES, THOMAS - CROSS 873: ( 1 Q Dr. Bores, did you take lengthy notes? 2 A (Bores) I seldom take lengthy notes. I take notes 3 that I feel I need to have. 4 Q Did you have a chance to consult your notes today -- 5 A (Bores) Yes. 6 0 -- before your testimony? 7 A (Bores) I did. 8 O And what you said and what you' ve acquiesced to Mr. 9 Thomas having said is consistent with the notes that you 10 reviewed before you sat down to testify this afternoon; is that 11 right? 12 A (Bores) The notes and my memory, yes, m 13 Q Okay. 14 MR. TURK: I don' t know if it's been asked or not. 15 Mr. Oleskey, did you want to ask Mr. Bores if he 16 recalls the order in which statements were made, whether they 17 were made for each particular agency either during the 18 discussions, or as a summary statement? 19 MR. OLESKEY: I thought we Just had testimony to that 20 effect, Mr. Turk. If you want to ask a clarifying question at 21 this point, go ahead. 22 MR. TURK: Oh -- I would simply ask if Dr. Bores 23 wishes to add anything as to when statements were made by each 24 agency. 25 THE WITNESS: (Bores) Well, for what i t 's wort h. I O Heritage Reportin0 Corporation (202) 628-4888
J~ BORES, THOMAS - CROSS 873a L]/ 1 mean, I can go through some of the agencies, but I certainly 2 can' t go through all of them. 3 Yeah, Mr. Thomas led off basically stating FEMA's 4 position. I stated the NRC position, the NRC representative's 5 position relative to these. And I think from there it went, I 6 believe, to Mr. Wasserman, and Mr. Lutz, Mr. Church and Mr. 7 Fish. 8 MR. TURK: Fish before Church? 9 THE WITNESS: (Bores) Fish before Church. 10 (Laughter.) 11 THE WITNESS: (Bores) And that's Keene. , 12 But in fact there was a discussion even while people () 13 were present their views. So, in fact, while Mr. Lutz is 14 providing sorae discussion, it rnay come back to Mr. Wasserrnan, i 15 or both, to Mr. Church. So it's not you give a presentation, 16 and cornebody else say yea or .nay in their presentation. There 17 was a lot of talk in between discussing the various topics. 18 THE WITNESS: (Thomas) If I may add, the collegial 19 process that we always talk about, there is a lot of byplay and 20 discussion in the meetinDs, and we get a lot out of it. We 21 don' t ever run thern with just you talk, and when you' re 22 finished talking, we go to the next person. It would be very 23 difficult to track the exact sequence of either -- I mean, it's 24 easy to track the sequence of the openi ng cornment s, because we 25 had these sheetu are nurnbured sequentially, and you can track O Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
BORES, THOMAS - CROSS 8733 1 pretty well who said what when in the opening part of this a which took place Thursday morning. 3 But beyond that in terms of the summary, I just have 4 no recollection of exactly what order people spoke. 2 5 MR. OLESKEY; Go ahead. G THE WITNESS: (Bores) I think the order that.I gave 7 for the RAC members was basically, with the exception of my 8 posit ion or Ed's posit ion, the position of the other RAC 9 members on the adequacy of it. I don' t think Ed mentioned his 10 position, you know, that is, the final poqition, inadequate, 11 antil, or I didn' t mention my position, adequate, -- 12 THE WITNESS: (Thomas) You were the last. (') 13 THE WITNE3S: (Bores) I was the lasi, yeah. 14 THE WITNESS: (Thomas) Big drama about which way you 15 were going to vote. h 16 (Laugher.) 17 THE WITNESS: (Thomas) But o'.her than that, the RAC 18 members in terms of indicating their preference yes or no, or 19 in terms of adequacy were in the order I just listed. And I' m 20 not sure if that helps you any in terms of understanding what 21 went on. 22 BY MR. OLESKEY: 23 Q Was there any report made by anybody about any views 24 that the Agriculture Department had even though it wasn' t 25 present? HeritaDe Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 1
BORES, THOMAS - CROSS 8739 1 A (Thomas) No. 2 O M r. Thomas, when you summarized what has been referred to here as your views, did you state in substance that i 4 they were your views or the agency's views? 5 A (Thomas) I made it very clear I -- I' d have to look 6 at the transcript. I hope I made it very clear thac I was 7 articulating the views of the Federal Emergency Management 8 Agency. f 9 u When you say you have to look at the transcript, what 10 are you referring? 11 A (Thomas) I hoped I said that today. If I did say i 12 "my views", I misspoke. I should have said FEMA's views. 13 Q I' m asking what you said last Thursday and Friday f) 14 when you described the position that you said you gave? 15 A (Thomas) I made it very, very, very, very, very 16 clear that I was speaking for FEMA and it was FEMA's views. 17 O Dr. Bores, how would you describe the views you were 18 articulating a1 you' ve summarized them today and as Mr. Thomas l l 19 h s summarized them? Your views or the NRC staff views, or !
- F' some third possibility?
i i 21 A ( Bows) I would state those basically as my views, 22 although my views have been discussed with utaff, and I believe 23 1 have staff support on those. . 24 But when we go into a meeting, I mean we' re not
- c.5 conferring back with our parent agencies, i so , otherwise we l
l l Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888 i - - . . _ _ _ _ _ _
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BORES, THOMAS - CROSS 873U . 1 wouldn' t. be abl e to accomplish anything. 2 Q Did you at these meetings, particularly on Thursday, 3 indicate what the process of conferencing had been for you at 4 your agency with respect to arriving at views on the sheltering 5 of the transient beach population? r 6 A (Dores) We did not discuss that particular issue. t 7 O That is, you didn' t say anything about the process 4 8 back at the NRC. You simply stated your views, correct? 9 A (Bores) I did not talk about the process -- 10 Q. Right. 11 A (Bores) -- with the agency; that's correct. . 12 O With respect to these other agencies and the () 13 individuals who gave positions, Mr. Thomas, that you summarized 14 today, did they state in all casus that they were speaking for 1 4 15 their agencies? , i 16 A (Thomas) 1 don't remember them particularly saying 17 that, but that -- my assumption, and my assumption that I have 4 18 articulated in other RAC meetings, I don' t remember sayit.g it 19 last Thursday and Friday, is that the people are speaking for 20 their agencies, and thac we' re accept ing their views as their i 21 agencies' views. 22 O Do you recall, Dr. Dores, any discussion by any other l t 23 RAC members other than yourself and Mr. Thomas about whether 24 they wercs speaking for their agencies particularly? l i 25 A (Dores) This question really rarely comes up at a , Heritage Reporting Corporation l (202) 628-4888 1 ) l
T~' BORES, THOMAS - CROSS 8736
- L 1 RAC meeting, somebody says, I am speaking for my agency. I ,
2 mean that's something that we have not, in' general, discussed.- ! 2 3 Q -Did any other member of the RAC than the two of you !
~4 discuss anything about the process of formulating their agency 5 position between July 30th and the meetinD.last Thursday?
6 A (Bores) No. 7 A (Thomas) No. 8 MR. OLESKEY: Judge, I now going to Do into some , 9 specifics of what was said at the meeting beyond the summary
- 10. that was given earlier. I' m at the disposal of the Board and 11 the other parties. It's 5:00. I' m happy to go forward, or 12 whatever else we may agree.
13 JUDGE SMITH: Well, how much longer do you think l 14 you' re going to have? It might be bet t er t o -- t i 15 MR. OLESKEY: I would imagine it would be some time. 16 JUDGE SMITH: Really? 17 MR. OLESKEY: Yes. 18 MR. TURK: As to what happened at the RAC meeting? , 19 MR. OLESKEY: Yes. 20 JUDGE SMITH: I would imagine it would not be. 21 MR. OLESKEY: Well, we' re deal ing -- 22 (Laughter.) 23 MP. OLESKEY: You may rule that. . 24 JUDGE SMITH: Yes. 25 MR. OLESKEY: I would understand that, but left to my Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888
L DORES, THOMAS - CROSS 8737 u own devices I would have questions about the specific summaries 2 now that I understand that the discussions went on for about 3 four and a half hours on Thursday. 4 JUDGd SMITH: Well, we' ll see what happens. 5 No, we -- it's time to - if you are going to be a > 6 significant amount of additional time, we should break. 7 MR. OLESKEY: Okay. 8 JUDGE SMITH: And this evening when we do break,
, i 9 would you please leave the room as soon as you can? !
10 MR. OLESKEY: Surely. 11 JUDGE SMITH: There is a problem with the security s 12 and the cleaning people. () 13 MR. DIGNAN: We can go off the record t'or t h i s. 14 JUDGE SMITH: All right. 15 (Whereupon, at 4:55 p.m., the hearing was receased, 16 to reconvere at 9:00 a.m., Wednesday, January 13, 1988.) ; 17 18 19 l 20 21 22 ,, 23 l i 24 , 25 O Heritage Reporting Corporation , (202) 628-4888 1
1 CERflFICATE (V~') 2 3 This is to certify that the attached proceedingu before the 4 Un'.'.ad States Nuclear Regulatory Cornmission in the raat ter of: 5 Narne t pUBLIC SERVICE COMPANY OF 6 NEW HAMPSHIRE, et al. 7 Docket Nurnber : 6-443-OL, 5-444-OL 8 Place: CONCORD, NEW HAMPSHIRE 9 Date: January 12, 1988 10 were held as herein appears, and that this is the criginal 11 transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear 12 Regulatory Commission taken electronically by rne and, 13 thereafter reduced to typewriting by roe or under the direction ( 14 of the court reporting company, and that the recording is a 15 true and accurate roc rd o he fi egoing ortceedings. 16 /S/ 17 (Signature typed): KENT ANDREWS . 18 Official Reporter 19 Heritage Reporting Corporation 20 21 22 23 24 ' 25 Heritage Reporting Corporation (202) 628-4888}}