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OI Interview Transcript of Witness, Dated 01/07/2004, Pages 1-97
	ML061460301
Person / Time
Site:	Salem, Hope Creek
Issue date:	01/07/2004
From:	; NRC/OI
To:	;
References
	1-2003-051F, FOIA/PA-2005-0194, NRC-1268
	Download: ML061460301 (99)
	v • d • e

OffiJat Transcript Of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION Title Interview of Docket Number: 1-2003-051 F (j~

Location: Hancocks Bridge, New Jersey Date: Wednesday, January 7, 2004 Work Order No.: NRC-1268 Pages 1-97 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.

Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.

Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433 Information in this record was deleted 4 Inaccordance with the Freedom of Informaffrf(

Act, exemptions 9- C.

(y\ -

LOW__________

1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3

4 OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS 5 INTERVIEW 6 - ----------------- x 7 IN THE MATTER OF:

8 INTERVIEW OF 01 Case No. 1-2003-051F 9

10 (Closed) 11 - ----------------- x 12 January, October 7, 2004 13 14 Human Resources Department 15 Hope Creek/Salem Generating Station 16 TB2 Building 17 Hancocks Bridge, NJ 18 19 The above-entitled interview was conducted, at 20 4:20 p.m.,

21 22 BEFORE:

23 JEFFREY TEATOR, Special Agent 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 4:20 p.m.

3 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: It's approximately 4 4:20 in the afternoon. My name is Jeffrey Teator.

5 I'm a Senior Special Agent with the NRC's Office of 6 Investigations. And today's date, is it the 8th?

7th.

7 8 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: 7th. January 7th.

9 The year is 2004. And today I am conducting a follow 10 up interview of This interview is 11 being conducted at the Salem/Hope Creek Station in TB2 12 Building in a private office in the Human Resources 13 area.

14 I interviewed back on October 15 6, 2003 as part of his Safety Conscious Work 16 Environment review/investigation that 01 is helping 17 the region conduct down here at Salem/Hope Creek. And shortly after that interview jcontacted me 18 19 indicating that he had some additional information 20 that he would like to share. And since October, I 21 have identified a couple of other issues I'm going to 22 ask about today, a couple of other 23 technical type of issues.

24 again this is a voluntary 25 interview. Do you understand that?

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1J Yes, I do.

2 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. And you wish 3 to go forward?

4 Yes, I do.

5 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: And, again, this is 6 not a wrongdoing investigation in what I'm looking at 7 here today. No one's accused you of doing anything 8 wrong. Regarding what I'm going to be talking to you 9 about today there's no potential violation because 10 there's no SCWE rule, Safety Conscious Work 11 Environment rule. Be that as it may, this information 12 is still material to the NRC. The NRC looks to the 13 Safety Conscious Work Environment as being a very 14 important issue and because of that, your answers the 15 Commission expects that your information you're 16 providing is truthful and correct. Do you understand 17 that?

18. *I understand.

19 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Do you have any 20 objection to providing sworn testimony then today?

21 No.

22 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. Raise your 23 right hand for me, please. do you swear

.7 24 the information that you are about to provide to me is 25 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

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1 aI do.

2 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Thanks.

3 Are you still the 4

5 6 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. Just wanted 7 to get that in the record. All right.

8 And you now report to 9 (phonetic)?

10 - That's correct.

11 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. And you have 12 some information that you wanted to share with the 13 Commission as involved to my first interview. Go 14 right ahead, please.

15 11111 111 Yes. What I did was after our 16 first interview, Jeff, I went through and I have a 17 series of documents in front of me. What they are, in 18 this portion of the interview what I'd like to do is 19 to clarify some areas and perhaps spawn some further 20 thought with the documents in front of me that you 21 may have to provide some more clarification on plant 22 events, particularly that happened at Salem/Hope Creek 23 in the February and mainly March time frame of 2003.

24 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

25 , V4 When I was first interviewed NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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-J 1 in October of 2003, we went through the interview 2 process and I was a little uncomfortable with my 3 recollection of what the facts were and the time line.

4 And I didn't think I could give my best answers. I 5 did the research and went back and made copies. As I 6 said to you before we went on the record, these are 7 available off of the company information site and 8 could be made available to the residents or are made 9 available to the residents information that they have.

10 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

11 What I have in front of me, 12 Jeff, it's an acronym called at TARP (phonetic) 13 report. It's a management response report to an event 14 of an issue that happened at the plant. I'll just go 15 over the titles for a moment.

16 One is the February 25, 2003 an 17 operability issue we had at Hope Creek on the Bravo 18 diesel and it surrounds exhaust fumes.

19 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right, we talked 20 about that.

21 There's information on that.

22 I actually have skylines on -- that 23 provide more detailed time line on when events 24 occurred. Because when we first interviewed it was --

25 I think we were mixing and matching what our time NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 lines were. And I have that data with me.

2 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

3 There was a Salem Unit 1 load 4 reduction due to river grass problems on March 3rd. I 5 have a report on that.

6 I have a schedule that I needed to go back 7 to on the Hope Creek Research seal and turbine bypass 8 valve outage that's available that could clear up some 9 time line facts.

10 I actually have the root cause from -- and 11 I can give you these numbers if you want to write them 12 down, that could help out 6or anyone, if 13 that's necessary.

14 The root cause on the Bravo research seal 15 excessive fuel leakage at Hope Creek, this was written 16 after we got into the drywall and had to change out 17 the seal in March of 2003.

18 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.

19 -7 The planned outage report 20 critique for -- that was written by my organization 21 for the outage that occurred at Hope Creek on the 22 Bravo Research pump seal. I got information on that.

23 There's actually what we call a tech 24 issues that has some -- helped with some time line on.

25 I got questioned by you back in October on some --

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1 what exactly were the facts around some meetings that 2 occurred in the OCC, the Outage Control Center, during 3 the outage on bypass valve operability at Hope Creek.

4 I believe it was -- it was on the startup. But we 5 could go through that if you'd like.

6 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: That's the Hope 7 Creek turbine bypass valve issue?

8 That's correct.

9 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. Yes, I'd 10 like to go through that.

11 -Okay. And I don't think 12 we're going to need this, but I have it available.

13 This has -- I have another document here 14 that has some time line information on the Hope Creek 15 turbine bypass valve, which it'll probably help you 16 out. You may need to refer to that.

17 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

18 f And I have -- this is off the 19 website. It's completed, but I don't have the signed 20 version of the Hope Creek reactivity event root cause.

21 That's where the operators were shutting down and they 22 had a power point. There's some information in there.

23 And I think that's going to be okay for 24 now. I have other TARP reports from that time period 25 that we may refer to them if we have to. What I would NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 propose is rather than putting them on the record 2 right now, if we'd go to them we'll just put it on the 3 record at that time.

4 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. All right.

5 What I have is, and I'm going 6 back from my notes, Jeff, is one level on March 3rd 7 was a unit one load reduction due to grassing at Salem 8 Station, very -- to 40 percent. From March 7th to 9 March 14th the Hope Creek unit shuts down for a forced 10 outage, originally to change out the seal on the 11 research pump. f 12 And we can go through these in details and 13 we'l l talk about how best to answer questions and need 14 to feel comfortable with having given you all the 15 information that I can in a second here.

16 But on March 14th what I got from the 17 information was the number two bypass valve does not 18 go closed when the generator is synchronized at the 19 completion of the research pump outage. And I have a 20 question in my notes that I can probably answer by 21 going through this thing. I'll need to refresh my 22 memory.

23 We had this decision on a shutdown 24 meeting.

25 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

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1 *And that was a touch meeting 2 in there. And the decision took quite a while. I 3 think we can pin that day down if that's important to 4 you.

5 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes. Is that the 6 meeting where is pushing --

7 Yes.

8 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: -- people in that 9 meeting. People that meet thought it was a black and 10 white issue, we need to go --

11 RThat's the one.

12 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: -- check out the 13 value. That's -- Okay.

14 That's the one.

15 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes, I'd like to 16 talk about that.

17 So we can go back into that 18 if you want.

19 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.

20 . I think, you know, I might 21 have to leaf through some paper as we do that.

22 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

23 VW But I have several pages 24 highlighted here.

25 And three days later on March 17 we go NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 through, we decide to shut the unit down because the 2 bypass valve, the number 2 bypass valve won't go 3 closed and there's information in here about metallic 4 sounds and all --

5 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

6 o" - on the valve stroking.

7 And we shut the unit down on March 17th. And that is 8 the time when -- and it was -- it was an infrequently 9 performed test in evolution because it was difficult 10 because the bypass valve would not go full closed.

11 And the operators experienced power slings at that 12 time, and that was a reactivity event I mentioned 13 when I was going through the --

14 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

15 -- data or the documents I 16 had in front of me.

17 And that's it for high level on the time 18 line.

19 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: The reactivity 20 event and the bypass valve issue are tied together?

Oh, yes.

21 22 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

23 Oh, yes. They were bang, 24 bang. As a matter of fact, we can look at the 25 calendar and the date, but I think we start up, I NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 believe -- I believe the 14th was either a Thursday or 2 a Friday and I believe that the 17th was a Sunday that 3 we make these decisions. And then we have the problem 4 when we sink the generator.

5 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right. That's what 6 you call as a reactivity event.

7 The subsequent shutdown and 8 the complications that we had from that, yes.

9 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. Talk about--

10 if you don't mind me asking. a couple of questions, 11 about the bypass value issue with the metallic sound.

12 , Let's go through that.

13 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes. When was that 14 fir-st heard or identified that there may be something 15 wrong with that.

16 MW Okay. This will work out if 17 we do it this way.

18 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: That's fine.

19 So you've got your gaps and 20 it's probably most time efficient, and I'm not 21 carrying on, you know, with information you don't need 22 (inaudible).

23 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

24 . So let me find this stuff.

25 I got all this stuff highlighted. Let me read through NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 it and then I can answer your question directly.

2 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. I'll turn 3 the tape off while you're looking at that.

4... Oh, I'm almost done.

5 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

6 .. I can go. Okay.

7 So here it is. This document is from 8 3/15/03. That's the one on the number 2 bypass valve 9 stuck at 38 percent.

10 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

Ii . It's called a tech issue.

12 What a tech issues is, Jeff, we've got engineering 13 folks that are supporting the outage.

14 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

15 W' And they're trainea on 16 systematically going through a problem that's 17 presented to them.

18 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

19 . And I'll show you in some of 20 these things. They have a spreadsheet that they fill 21 in the blanks so they don't miss anything.

22 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

23 . Okay. And that's what tech 24 issues really is; it's a procedure we use.

25 And what they did was on March the 15th NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 they look at it and they go through this 2 troubleshooting procedure -- let me go to my sheet 3 here. This document says -- and this is what the 4 engineer would have been working on out of the OCC on 5 that day.

6 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

7 All right.

8 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: A normal work 9 assignment then?

Yes.

10 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. At that 12 point it's still not --

13 It didn't happen over it 14 didn't happen over, Jeff, go out there and 15 troubleshoot this thing and you come back in two 16 hours.

17 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

18 It happened over the course 19 of probably 24 hours2.777778e-4 days 0.00667 hours 3.968254e-5 weeks 9.132e-6 months .

20 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

21 And you'll see that when we 22 go through this right now. So basically you got the 23 normal work assignment, if you will.

24 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

25 W From the engineering support NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 organization. And I just don'c want to miss anything.

2 And they go through and say hey the valve won't go 3 closed.

4 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

5 All right. We think the 6 generator valve won't go closed. Okay. What they'll 7 do is, they go through and say what are the possible 8 causes and they list them.

9 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

10 All right. And you can see 11 them there. I highlighted the one that eventually 12 turns out to be the problem was the bolt FME. FME 13 stands for foreign material excluded. But then what 14 they do is they split up each cause into what could be 15 the problem -- or excuse me. Data that supports what 16 it could be or data that just proves what it could be.

17 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

18 As you can see, this is metal 19 to metal sound supports it. The valve doesn't --

20 consistently does go anymore than 38 percent with a 21 full drive signal, it's a hydraulic valve.

22 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.

23 And what the engineering 24 department in that case said was well there's no 25 reason why it couldn't be this.

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1 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.

2 0"- All right. So we 3 systematically went through the problem and said -- I 4 can go through this in more detail if you'd like. But 5 said this is it.

6 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right. Does this 7 show when it was first discovered?

8 Not directly. This -- what 9 I have on this document is March 15th.

10 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

11 Now what you'll see is, and 12 I know that -- I know that -- let's go off the record 13 just to save the tape time.

14 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Sure.

15 (Whereupon, off the record.)

16 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. It's about 17 4:35. We've going over the documents regarding this 18 event.

19 Why don't we just go right into it. When 20 was the problem with the valve first identified that 21 it wouldn't shut?

22 Okay. I'm reading from the 23 critique from the planned outage report for the Bravo 24 research pump seal replacement. AT 2154 on March 14, 25 2003 the generator was synchronized and therefore the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 way the plant works, the valve did not shut at that 2 time, and that's when we were first aware of it.

3 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. What 4 happened next then?

5 . What happened next was I'm 6 going from my memory as well as from reading the 7 documents. Engineering support was garnered from the 8 Outage Control Center. This tech issues that I 9 mentioned before, which is dated March 15th which 10 would obviously be after midnight on that Friday night 11 into Saturday.

12 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: The tech issue 13 factsheet.

14 The tech issue factsheet, 15 that's correct.

16 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. All right.

17 .; Lists all the possible 18 causes, the data that supports your data that 19 disproves it. And in that document it states that FME 20 in the valve seat could be a possible cause; that's 21 one of probably 12 or 13. And from my memory also, 22 Jeff, I recall that the first thing that they did that 23 night was -- I'm reading from another one of these 24 tech issues sheet -- is that they tried to remove the 25 anthanal (phonetic) plug which physically sends the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 signal to the servo (phonetic) value to tell it to 2 open or close. And the value would fail closed. There 3 was no response, which that was the easiest thing for 4 them to prove or disapprove. It told them it wasn't 5 an electrical problem.

6 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

7 And that led them down the 8 road that this was probably a mechanical problem that 9 they needed to work on.

10 And then we start the process from my 11 memory, and we can go into some more documents, on 12 further management notifications on that Saturday.

13 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

14* And ultimately leading to 15 management review meetings and a decision to shut the 16 unit down.

17 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right. I wanted to 18 get into that a little bit, the decision making 19 process.

20 Okay.

21 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Where eventually on 22 the 16th, which is a Sunday at 1824 the plant is taken 23 out of service to repair the valve.

24 Yes.

25 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: In the first NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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interview we talked about the one meeting that went on 2 for two, three hours. yourself, others.

3 Right.

4 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: But it sounded 5 there were meetings before then; yes or no?

6 Now let's talk for a few 7 minutes while I'm looking at some other documents. I 8 think from what we have right now from reading the 9 documents is that the meeting that we talked about in 10 October with and the OCC 11 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

12 - would have been during the 13 day late on day shift on Saturday.

14 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

15 Whatever that date is.

16 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: That would have 17 been--

18 The 15th.

19 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Saturday was the 20 15th?

21 Yes. Yes. It would have been 22 during the day on the 15th. And that's my 23 recollection now that we're piecing things together.

24 So we talked about my concern of, you 25 know, it seems sort of black and white.

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1 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.

2 And as I recall, the tape 3 would -- writh -- that you have with -- I can't 4 remember he r name.

5 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Dr. Harmon 6 (phonetic)?

7 Kim Harmon -- Kim Harmon 8 alluded to that as well.

9 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

10 And from what I'm gaining 11 here was, I think that was on a Saturday. The point I 12 was trying to make there in October was with the --

13 with Dr. Harmon's interview or tape in an interview 14 from October was the date I have in front of me now 15 was -- one thing we haven't talked about is we have a 16 valve that's -- not to be technical on the tape or 17 anything, but it's a hydraulic valve that generates 18 1600 pounds per square inch. It will drive through a 19 concrete wall if it has to if there's nothing in the 20 way. And it's making a metallic sound.

21 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

22 ra ' It's repeatable. It won't 23 close. And we're basically without knowing exactly 24 what power level we're at, we're within six percent, 25 seven percent power level of where it's not allowed to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 operate by --

2 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

3 N. And it was pretty 4 straightforward to myself, and not speaking for others 5 in the room, I think they felt the same way by 6 Saturday that there was compelling evidence that we 7 needed to shut the reactor down.

8 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

9 dl We talked about 10 having contraian point of views in his -- on his 11 behalf you look at this and there -- when you read 12 through this technical issues document there are a 13 list of causes that it could be. I mean, when you go 14 through the actual technical issues. So -- and to go 15 through those is, you know, in a meeting is certainly 16 fair. But as far as the tone of the meeting goes, we 17 did not go through that. I don't recall going through 18 that document that we're doing right now very closely.

19 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

20 .. In a systematic manner.

21 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

22 23 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Well, then legally 24 you were okay with your --

25 Q,- Yes.

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1 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Because you weren't 2 at the power level, which was 25 percent --

3 ... That's correct.

4 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: -- which would have 5 caused an automatic shut -- immediate shutdown? You 6 weren't there yet?

7 From my recollection of the 8 events, from reading these documents we didn't -- and 9 from what I remember, we didn't violate --

10 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

-- any laws.

11 12 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

13 Or admin limits by the 14 company.

15 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. Good.

16 To my knowledge.

17 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Then if you don't 18 recall* going through the tech issue 19 factsheet and the things that were pulled out of what 20 it could or couldn't be, can you offer now more --

21 what he was asking the group to do, what he was going 22 over to make sure you were proceeding correctly?

23 I'll tell you what I'd like 24 to do, is it helps me when I go through these things 25 because I highlighted, like I said, to get ready for NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 this what they were. To fairly answer that question, 2 I'd like to look at a few more things.

3 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

4 And it might spark some 5 memory.

6 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: That's good.

7

I don't have a real good 8 answer right now.

9 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right. We'll 10 go off. It's about quarter of 5:00.

11 (Whereupon, a recess.)

12 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. We're back 13 on. It's almost 5:00. And my last question was what 14 was basis for his position and where he was 15 coming from. But really to get at this, why don't we 16 just go right through Saturday night, which would have 17 been March 15, 2003; what happened then and then going 18 from there forward, how did this thing roll out.

19 Okay. In response to that, 20 what I want to do is I'm reading from the reactivity 21 event root cause at Hope Creek. I'm going to supply 22 Jeff the order number so he has it, 70030270. He can 23 jot down any reference he needs if he needs to talk to 24 the resident.

25 But on Saturday night -- I'm reading from NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 the document and paraphrasing. But on Saturday night 2 the reactor's at 20 percent power. This tech issue 3 process is through. And for all intents and purposes, 4 and it looks like the valve was mechanically down.

5 Station management has come to a 6 conclusion that we're going to need to shut down. It 7 appears from this document, and I spoke to Jeff 8 somewhat off the record, that there were several 9 meetings on other events. And my memory can get 10 confused from one meeting to another during that time 12 frame, because there were several issues.

12 But it appears that the main focus of that 13 meeting on Saturday night was we got through the 14 shutdown decision and on Saturday night the basis of 15 how we were going to shutdown the plant was discussed 16 to some detail with some significant ops involvement.

17 Because the valve was stuck and controlling the cool 18 down rate after the reactor was shutdown was a point 19 of concern for the management team.

20 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Did they put people 21 through like just in time type training to prepare 22 them for what needed to be done to bring the plant 23 down?

24 Exactly. That's exactly what 25 had to be done on Saturday. The decision on when to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 do it was made, and then how to do and then operations 2 had to get their crews into the simulator to get 3 working at that time, which they did. And ultimately 4 the crew on Sunday night was the one who shut the 5 reactor down.

6 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Is that why it took 7 to Sunday evening to shut the plant down? They had to 8 prepare to do that? They couldn't just go and do it?

9 .. That's correct. That was the 10 delay to get the -- get the plans in place.

11 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.

12 *, The training done and the 13 readiness. We actually had what we call an 14 infrequently performed task and management review in 15 place as well.

16 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: On Saturday evening 17 when the decision is about to be made to shut the 18 plant down, there's a meeting that we talked about 19 during the first interview.

20 . . I' Right 21 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR:

22 23 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Anything more on 24 where -- what he said, his basis that you can offer 25 now that we didn't talk about earlier?

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1 I don't think so, Jeff. My 2 memory is, and I'm going purely from my memory not 3 reading from a document at this point, was that he did 4 challenge us on other opportunities it could be or --

5 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Causes?

Causes.

6 7 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

8 That's a better word. Causes 9 it could be. And once we got to the mechanical 10 binding, from my memory, his attitude changed. And I 11 remember a conference call that I could cite later on 12 that night of how we're going to get the reactor shut 13 down safely.

14 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

15 And we had gone home around 16 dinnertime. And ... .. ..

17 led a conference call later 18 that evening. And after he had explored the 19 opportunities and figured out with his team on what 20 the best way to do it was. And was all in favor 21 of that. So --

22 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

23 And then the training 24 started.

25 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

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1 In the simulator and the 2 like.

3 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: You read something 4 from a document here about how this decision was 5 reached and where it could have been better. What 6 document is that, and I'll read it on the record.

7 I can read it.

8 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right. Go 9 ahead.

10 I'm reading from the planned 11 outage report from the Bravo Research pump seal 12 replacement. Once again, it was written by 13 (phonetic). The date that I have, copy I have, is 14 April 25, 2003.

15 And it states that -- I'll just read it:

16 "The management team failed to determine who was 17 responsible to make the final decision on some issues 18 and achieve alignment on the decision. The basis for 19 the decision resulted in some decisions being made at 20 the :ro. o. m.

...... . .. ... .... The 21 organization could not decide on what actions had to 22 be performed to resolve BK-400" that would be the 23 Bravo Control Room at Hope Creek. "The Alpha Research 24 pump seal purge relief valve," which we talked about 25 in October.

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1 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.

2 1 M""And the number 2 turbine 3 bypass valve," which we're talking about tonight as 4 well as last October. The last sentence of the 5 statement is "Once a decision was made the 6 organization failed to obtain alignment at various 7 levels of management."

8 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: So it talks about 9 three issues there.

10 F. That's correct.

11 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Where this scenario 12 played out.

13 Right.

14 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. All right.

15 That killer example was one 16 that I don't personally have a lot of documentation 17 with. I do recall it. It was during this outage. It 18 involved a freon leakage and compliance with some 19 environmental laws.

20 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. Now once a 21 decision -- any more on that?

22 No. We could talk about this 23 -- the notification piece on this reactivity event.

24 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: We're going to go 25 to that next.

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2 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: I'll just go right 3 to that. Yes, well, was there some type of issue with 4 how the -- the Control Room operators handled that and 5 their communication over that issue?

6 - Right. One thing I wanted to 7 put on the record was that I'm reading from the 8 reactivity event root cause that I mentioned earlier.

9 And I'm reading from the event response. But I also 10 recall personally that this is the way the 11 notification to -- into the corrective action system 12 and the management team happened.

13 During the shutdown, and you can get the 14 exact details of it form the report, but at a 15 relatively low power level there was a power 16 oscillation that the crew experienced. It was 17 basically due to, in my words, a misunderstanding with 18 the intent of a procedural step. And that's all 19 documented in the cause report. But the thing I 20 wanted to point out was that that was not brought to 21 management's attention, communicated to senior 22 management until two days following the transient.

23 That's from the root cause report and from a planned 24 outage report. It also says that even that I'm 25 talking about here was not communicated to the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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until the next day, which would 2 have been Monday, wh atever that date is. And then the 3 notification was wri tten at that point and then it was 4 raised in priority ai-idsignificance the following day, 5 which would have bee:n Tuesday. And my recollection is 6 by -- at request recognizing the 7 potential significarice of the event.

8 So in th at regard j looked at- -

9 very clearly saw the safety significance of an issue 10 and the opportunity I:o get to the cause and correct it 11 for the future.

12 Just one other thing I wanted to say on 13 that, Jeff, was that I have some personal memory from 14 this, if it helps anytime in the future with the 15 investigation. Myself and the 16 (phonetic) and there's two other individuals who are 17 involved in training at the time, (phonetic) and. were asked by 18 19 #on the following Friday evening, that would 20 have been -- what date would that have been?

21 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: The 21st?

22 mair Yes. Yes, the 21st --

23 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Of March?

24 I remember that night, I 25 don't know if it's in here or not, but he asked us to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 come together and with the data that we had at the 2 time from this which ultimately became the root cause, 3 there was a lot of work done from when he asked the 4 significance to be raised on Tuesday until that Friday 5 night. What did we see being experienced on the unit 6 as well as boiling water reactors and the Control 7 Room's behavior and do an independent assessment of 8 that, which we did.

9 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Did you uncover why 10 the operators didn't notify management until two days 11 after?

12 It looked at that, and it 13 talks about it to some extent in this root cause.

14 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Do you remember 15 what their basis or the reason was for not notifying 16 management?

17 Not really.

18 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

19 Not really.

20 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: It's in the report, 21 though, isn't it?

22 o. I believe so, yes.

23 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.

24 It says -- I can -- I can 25 read it right here.

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1 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

2 I do want to qualify one 3 thing. What I said was -- or what I was given the 4 charter was, rather, on Friday night was do you see 5 this thing -- what's the significance of this thing as 6 you see it and from the event -- or from the 7 information that we had. And -- and myself andM 8 and -- said, yes, it's a root cause- there 9 should be a root cause and it should be -- it should 10 be significant.

11 You asked me about why -- why they 12 wouldn't bring it up. And -- I'm reading from -- I 13 actually highlighted this when I read it before I came 14 in here. It's on page 30 of the root cause. And it 15 talks about the shift manager related that he was 16 asked that question that you just asked me. The shift 17 manager related that he wanted to clearly review and

_18 define the problem prior to entering a notification in 19 (inaudible) and did not believe that the time delay in 20 entering a notification was significant. It states 21 that QA personnel who were there did not recognize the 22 significance. (inaudible) engineering supervisor 23 discussed the matter with his manager. Decided to see 24 if the ops department self-identified the issue.

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1 that's what -- that's what in the document.

2 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Who was the.

3 Mthat night?

4 -I can look it up. I think it 5 was . I'm not sure if it's in this 6 document or not.

7 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.

8 II'm pretty sure 9 it was him. I'm not sure if it's in this document or 10 not.

11 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.

12 So that's what's going on 13 with that.

14 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Now, in this event 15 an-involvement would have been something-16 his involvement, his drive, his direction was 17 something -- was it something you viewed as positive?

18 19 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

20 To M . Definitely.

21 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.

22 Definitely. Yes. And in 23 bringing out something that could have been a blind 24 spot for the rest of the organization.

25 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

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1 Yes. Anything more on that 2 issue?

3 No, 0 I don't think so. I'd 4 encourage you to -- if you have more interest in it, 5 I mean I -- to look through this and harass the 6 residents or for somebody in the region to look 7 through it.

8 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.

9 I think that could help you 10 out.

ii SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. So we've 12 gone over in a little bit more detail the bypass valve 13 issue and this -- the shutdown and then the reactivity 14 issue?

15 - Right.

16 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: From what we've 17 talked about the first time, is there more you want to 18 add on that or other things that we've talked about?

19 If not, I was going to move to where management is now 20 and how you see things are down here now at the site.

21 I don't think I have anything 22 further at this time. I mean, I could continue, but I 23 don't think -- I don't think it would be that helpful 24 to you.

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1 before we go to differences between the way it was 2 then at that meeting, I guess 2003 time period, March 3 2003 time period under the old management regime and 4 now, I have a couple of questions on some technical 5 issues that we've --

6 Good.

7 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: -- come up that I 8 think I'll --

9 okay.

10 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: And then when we 11 get through that, we'll go --

12 That'd be good.

13 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Just let me stop 14 for just a second.

15 (Whereupon, a recess).

16 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. We're back 17 on. It's about quarter after 5:00.

18 The first issue I wanted to see if you 19 have any knowledge or can provide some insight in is 20 coming out of a Salem spring 2001 outage -- now I'm 21 going back a little bit here.

22 okay.

23 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: I have full power 24 for a very short time and some type of electrical type 25 issue caused a generator trip, turbine trip or reactor NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 trip. It all happened. Some type of electrical type 2 of issue. *would have been -- I think he 3 would have been the. at that time.

4 Could have been, yes.

5 Probably.

6 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Does that issue 7 ring a bell to you at all; up for a very short period 8 of time, something happens electrical that --

9 From a technical standpoint 10 I could guess what it was, but I don't think that 11 would really help your investigation.

12 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: No.

13 It's probably was something 14 to do with lightening arresters on a transformer.

15 But--

16 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: No. I think it was 17 something inside the plant, not on the outside.

18 oh, really?

19 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes. I think it was 20 something inside.

21 An electrical problem?

22 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.

23 I'd have to look a few things 24 up.

25 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Well, the thing I NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 wanted to talk about was, you know at that point in 2 time were there concerns here among -- that were maybe 3 voiced to you about if this happens, it can make our 4 performance indicator go from green to white? Do you 5 remember that kind of concern --

~No.

6 7 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: -- being floated 8 around, discussed at high levels down here at the 9 site? You know, the NRC went to that color code --

10 Yes, I remember. I remember-11 12 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: And certain things 13 could cause a plant's performance indicator to change.

14 And I know this is a while ago, spring of '01.

15 I can't really remember that.

16 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: You remember that - -

17 No.

18 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: -- being an issue 19 at all? Having to shut a plant down, how long it 20 would take to get back up before an indicator might 21 change in the NRC's eyes? Do you remember that --

22 .. . ... . No .

23 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: -- being a concern 24 or a --

25 M No, I don't remember having NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 conversations about that or of that ever being an 2 issue.

3 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right. This is 4 a Salem issue, this next one.

5 SJ check (phonetic) values.

6 Okay.

7 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Four and five, 12 8 to 13 were leaking.

9 * *? Okay.

10 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Approximately two 11 years ago, so that would be --

12 . I'm not heavy technically on 13 Salem. I know which ones you're talking about.

14 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: But the issue was 15 that there was -- these valves were leaking and at 16 that time it was a surveillance requirement.

17 Yes.

18 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: You know, if it 19 fails the surveillance, it may cause you to do other 20 certain things.

21 Al Ma Right.

22 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: What was done here 23 was eventually that was it was engineered away.

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1 anymore in those valves.

Okay.

2 3 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Do you know about 4 that particular issue?

5 Very little.

6 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

7 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Tell me what you 8 know?

M*IX= Well --

9 10 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: I'm not being real ii helpful here, but these are some of the things we've 12 tripped on I'm picking your brain about what you might 13 know about it.

14 --- * . Well, with my background I'm 15 a lot better on when you go into the path on the Hope 16 Creek side --

17 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: I know.

18 -- than I am on the Salem 19 side.

20 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: I know.

21 , That's my --

22 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: I recognize that.

23 If you go to the second or 24 third question and we get starting getting into what 25 specifically what the event was, I might know nothing NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 at all.

2 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: No. It's more like 3 the decision. I guess shift managers and the AOM 4 wanted leak testing done.

5 Yes.

6 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: The decision was 7 made above their level we're not going to do that.

8 And see, I wouldn' t be in the 9 loop on that.

10 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.

11 Because I don't -- I was in 12 t the time. I know what the valves 13 are.

14 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

A;.

15 I know what their requirement 16 is. I know we've had a problem with them.

17 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

18 Ad we're doing the testing 19 with them in the past. And it's conversational at 20 best. I would never have been in a meeting like, say, 21 with a bypass valve line because that's not where my 22 expertise was.

23 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right. Supposedly 24 (phonetic) made a decision or provided 25 direction --

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1 ~Right.

2 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: -- to the staff 3 that no we're not going to do the testing. Here's what 4 we're going to do.

5 6 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.

7 6MI F wouldn't know.

8 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. Another 9 Salem issue.

10 All right. It's possible, I 11 mean I look --

12 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Salem 1, October 13 2003.

14 Okay.

15 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: T he BF-19 valve 16 issue?

17 The foreign 18 material on the valve?

19 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes And the issue 20 was identified. It took a number of Iiours to get to 21 where the decision was made to do it.

22 Yes, I knoi a little bit 23 about this one. It's more recent and 24 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: YeE 25 That was a faLult?

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1 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes. Salem 1.

2 77* And I don't know all the 3 players. I can give, you know, a little bit of the 4 players and some of the stuff that went on.

5 So this valve sits there and it feeds the 6 steam generators and it can -- (inaudible). And 7 somebody figures out the valve isn't moving. I don't 8 know if they actually picked it up on a level change 9 or the thing just wasn't moving.

10 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

11 7. And so they start going in 12 and asking questions, and they do -- it sounds -- from 13 my memory, Jeff, it was a -- and I don't mean this is 14 in the teeth gnashing sense, but I mean it was -- the 15 way I remember it is it's a -- I don't have all the 16 details like I do on the bypass valve part. From my 17 position --

18 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

19 S-- it was a -- it was a 20 decision done properly where the bypass valve took too 21 long.

22 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

23 In my position. And once 24 again, I wasn't involved in the details, but from my 25 memory it lasted about a shift. We -- we had NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 dispatched F(phonetic), he's one of the 2 guys that works in the plant for our department whose 3 a valve expert. And the same thing happened in a 4 sense of is it' a positioner problem or a control 5 problem, or is a mechanical problem.

6 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

7 And there was -- without --

8 I don't know all the details, but there was time 9 compression, if you will, with a bypass valve example 10 where if the bypass valve took two days, just a shift 11 to go through that process.

12 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right. Right.

13 And there was a plant manager 14 who decided. And it never had to get a million people 15 into a room that was, okay, what is it, the tech 16 issues processes goes on and boom, boom, boom. Okay.

17 And I think they actually had to train --

18 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes, there was 19 training done. Yes.

20 And as I recall the shutdown 21 was done well --

22 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

23 -- under somewhat challenging 24 circumstances.

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1 said that they thought even and compared to the other 2 issue we talked about, this is a lot shorter.

3 4 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: It was still too 5 long.

6 Yes. And that would be a 7 judgment call.

8 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Anything on what --

9 I had not -- go ahead.

10 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: On what may have 11 caused that or can you say it was excessively long?

12 From my opinion it was not 13 excessively long.

14 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

15 *Having been in those shoes 16 before, you know, I think you need -- you need to go 17 through systematically a -- what all the matters could 18 be.

19 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.

20-- And then -- and then 21 eliminate the easy ones and get to that point. If 22 that's -- and I don't recall what exactly how long it 23 took. But if that's a shift, the way you have to go 24 through that systematically and then make the 25 decision, I don't think that's too long -- like two NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 days.

2 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right. Okay.

3 The~ steam leak issue at 4 Salem. I don't think we talked about that the first 5 time.

6 f 1111I don't think so. I've been 7 interviewed by our corporate personnel on that.

8 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. Did you have 9 involvement in --

10 11 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

12 I know something of the 13 issue, though.

14 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Shooting the dart, 15 what can you offer about --

16 Okay. There's -- I don't 17 remember the time frame and all that. I don't remember 18 if the individual -- I think -- I think my memory of 19 the circumstance was the individual -- o as not 20 on shift.

21 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

22 I think he was the 23 And he was -- there was some type of leak 24 in the turbine building on one of the units. And the 25 valve was in the overhead.

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1 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.

2 And I seem to remember it was 3 -- I don't know which valve it is, but it was a rather 4 large valve, it at least had a big handle on it.

5 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.

6 It was a manual valve. And--

7 and the direction was to shut the valve and you go 8 into it remote -- remotely or locally is a better 9 word.

10 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

11 . Using the valve handle.

12 There was no motor operator control from a local panel 13 or from the control room.

14 And I think that there was some 15 disagreement with the crew in the OS on being able to 16 safely shut the valve.

17 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: There was steam 18 coming out of it.

19 AN Yes.

20 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

21 I guess it was out of the 22 packing plant. I don't recall.

23 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.

24 And from my understanding 25 I did shut the valve.

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1 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.

2 And --

3 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: And people had --

4 certain people -- the union people had problems with 5 what--

6 That's my understanding.

7 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

8 *That's my understanding.

9 That's that's the level of detail I know.

10 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.

11 I know socially from being 12 asked if before kind of having been explained -- I was 13 involved in the investigation or anything like that.

14. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: So the --

15 Nor do I know what the 16 ramifications were to or anything.

17 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Well, I guess the 18 issue is there are certain conduct of operations.

19 Right.

20 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: That's an issue, I 21 guess.

22 . Yes. Right. Exactly.

23 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: And the company 24 conducted their own investigation on that 25 (Whereupon, off the record. End side 1, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 tape 1).

2 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Water's coming out 3 of the ground. You had to excavation around the pipe.

4 They built a -- a little station was built there.

5 At the intake --

6 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.

7 okay.

8 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Well, no, as it's 9 coming into the --

10 ., Into the plant?

11 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: -- plant. They had 12 to build a little structure for the operator to watch 13 it to observe. Because at some point if there is 14 enough leakage to cause a plant to shutdown.

15 .4 Yes, I know about this. No, 16 this was out by the river.

17 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Well, I thought it 18 was where it came into the building.

19 N What's your time? Do you 20 have a date on it?

21 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: No. I probably do.

22 It should have been like 23 around Christmas time two years ago or something.

24 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Let me go check.

25 (Whereupon, a recess).

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1 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right. Just 2 for clarification, ' This issue we're talking 3 about, you believe it happened December time frame?

4 . That would be my -- I could 5 be off by a year. I remember it being cold outside.

6 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

7 Ir-1 And I remember it being 8 around Christmas time.

9 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: And we're talking 10 about the same issue?

Ii11-- * *That's correct. Yes 12 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: But in your job 13 duties at that time, were you responsible for any of 14 the work on that or identifying the problem, or 15 resolving the issue?

16 17 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. Maybe you 18 can just tell me what you know about it?

19 My recollection is from my 20 job duties, I had the. at the 21 time. And it's exactly what you said, Jeff. There 22 was -- there was some water bubbling up from the 23 ground between the intake structure out by the river 24 at service water and the macadam roadway there, a 25 space of 25 to 30 feet where there was soil. And NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 there was water bubbling up.

2 And here's my memory. The first thing 3 that it could be was that there was a backwash line 4 from the strainers that's underground that could have 5 been -- could have been leaking. And -- and they do 6 little tests on that, and that wasn't it.

7 Well, that left only one option, and that 8 was the --

9 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Surface water 10 pipes.

11 The big surface water pipes.

12 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

13-That were buried underground.

14 And so we had to we had to go get that.

15 And there was some experience in the 16 maintenance department. had some as well from his 17 days at ComEd.

18 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: I061 19 Yes. And some other fellas 20 that they had to repair that. And I think there was 21 another fella up from -- had some experience at Three 22 Mile Island.

23 But anyway, to make a long story short, 24 when you dig that stuff up the soil itself is built 25 and compacted such that it's part of a restraining NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 thing, so it's like a seismic support, if you will.

2 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Oh, okay.

3 So the pipe doesn't fall 4 apart in an earthquake.

5 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.

6 . So you have to keep it 7 compacted. So taken apart, you just don't get a 8 backhoe in there and dig it up and find the pipe. You 9 have to be very careful to maintain operability.

10 So, I don't know if time line was a 11 concern or was brought up as a concern as part of the 12 investigation you're doing, but that was something --

13 that was something that needed to be planned.

14 The other thing was that there was --

15 there was other pipes, obviously, in the way and you 16 didn't want to effect those. But anyway, so that was 17 dug up. That took a little bit of time to plan up.

18 And that was around the holidays.

19 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

20 And ultimately what you had 21 was, you had a cover for it and there was some backhoe 22 operation and there was actually quite a bit of manual 23 digging until they got to the thing. And it was 24 bubbling up like, you know like spring water.

25 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.

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1 And you had mentioned about 2 operators being stationed out there.

3 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.

4 There was like a cover and it 5 was ,- there was a -- a mud sucker kind of pump that 6 went into the hole. And then that pump would pump out 7 into a storm drain. And that had to be monitored. And 8 there was some type of leakage rate that was defined--

9 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

10 1-- that could be -- maintain 11 operability of the header.

12 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Correct.

13 And I don't know what that 14 number was, but it was equated to the run time on a 15 pump or something. And in case things changed 16 quickly, there was an operator that was required to be 17 staged out there.

18 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

19 And literally an aluminum hut 20 just like you would have a back yard of a --

21 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: A shed?

22 N I A shed. Yes. And it wasn't 23 great working conditions, but that guy sat there with 24 his radio. And that lasted, from my memory, Jeff, 25 four weeks.

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1 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.

2 Six weeks, until we could 3 line up the repairs. Because this is a specialty 4 repair that had to be done and the folks came in. And 5 they came in and fixed it. But during that my memory 6 is a four to six week time frame is when there was 7 operators stationed out there.

8 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

9 iAnd I had probably stopped by 10 there three or four times in my travels through the 11 plant: (A) to kind of cheer up who was ever there; (B) 12 see what was going on, see if the standards were being 13 maintained and all that.

14 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: In your eyes they 15 were?

16 Yes.

17 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

18 Yes. You know -- there was --

19 I recall one time that there was a safety issue that 20 I noticed with another individual I was walking around 21 with at the time (inaudible) brought up, and we fixed 22 it. The *hose was being run and was being supported 23 off the aluminum shed.

24 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.

25 And it was full of water. And NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 I haa a bit of an industrial safety concern with that.

2 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.

3 That could. be. That's my 4 memory of it. It's fairly vivid because it wasn't an 5 ideal working conditions out there.

6 SPECIAL AGENT T`EATOR: Right.

7 pW: And he (inaudible).

8 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: I think I'm done 9 with my new technical issues, but I want to just make 10 sure and then we'll go to where we were then.

~okay.

11 12 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: And where we are 13 now.

14 15 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: We'll have some 16 discussion about that.

17 Sure.

18 (Whereupon, a recess.)

19 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: The time is 20 of 20 5:00 and I've gone -- 20 of 6:00. I'm sorry. I've 21 gone over some of the technical issues that I wanted 22 to talk to .u about.

23 Now, I mean, you've got a new management 24 group in here now.

25 *=* * *i Right. _-

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1 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: And we talked in 2 October, it's not January. An and his 3 regime before, well why don't we talk about him a 4 little bit and then get through to where we are --

5 where you see management today and how they're running 6 things and doing things here in the plant. And then 7 that's what they're saying to people by what they're 8 saying and doing.

10 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Why don't you just 1i go right ahead and go into it?

12 min Sure. I had shared some of 13 this off the record with Jeff, but this is my 14 reflections on what I wanted to provide NRC on this 15 investigation for Safety Conscious Work Environment 16 and how some of the management theme, if you will, 17 comes through. And so in light of Jeff's comments 18 I'll start in August of 2000.

19 There was a lightening strike which 20 effected the Hope Creek Station. And there was some 21 reduction in power. And the unit was brought back to 22 power and without seed water heating, which the valves 23 had isolated. And

had talked to all the 24 operators at that time and one of the -- four of the 25 words that I remember from that was, you know, "You NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 don't get it" was what I determine the theme of his 2 speech. And the "You don't get it" was about -- it 3 was all about safety and it was all about he was very 4 in tune with safety. And I don't mean to imply that 5 he ever was not. I don't mean that by those comments 6 at all.

7 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

8 However, when he was saying 9 "You don't get it" to the operators, what he was 10 saying was that you don't have the authority to raise 11 power as a licensed operator. That's management's 12 responsibility. They're given that responsibility.

13 And after the August 2000 -- and he had 14 both Salem and Hope Creek operators in there.

15 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

16 And that was the theme of 17 that'speech. And one of the corrective actions that 18 came out of that event was this TARP process that we 19 talked about earlier tonight.

20 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

21 S...And what it is is a 22 management response process for events. We use it 23 very infrequently now. We'll talk about so me of the 24 changes here at the end.

25 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

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1 But that management response 2 process, you probably have been given some briefing on 3 it. But the theme of it was for the operators to 4 stabilize the plant, turn it over to the management 5 response team and let them deal with the issue.

6 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Would that be for 7 a decision to raise power as well as bring power down?

8 Ai That and lower threshold 9 items as well.

10 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

11 ,m It could be things that did 12 not directly effect reactivity.

13 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

14 It could be items where a 15 piece of equipment like a chiller or something trips 16 unexpectedly, something unexpected happens. And there 17 was criterias set in the procedure regs.

18 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

19 :. So, the effect of that, Jeff, 20 was over the course of time, and it didn't take a heck 21 of a long time either, was in my words disempowerment 22 of the operators.

23 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.

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1 the NRC examine as a license operator.

2 So they never felt good about that and 3 never came to just terms with it in their minds.

4 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Even up to the 5 shift manager level?

6 That's correct.

7 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

8 That's correct. It became a 9 way of life, but I would say that -- I would say that 1

10 in my opinion I would agree with the .hift manager 11 comment.

12 I think when we talked earlier, Jeff, 13 about -- and I'll talk about some other issues here 14 that you did not bring up, but when you talk about 15 this bypass valve issue and some meetings, these 16 contentious meetings, that undercurrent is there.

17 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: You don't it?

18 Right. And we talked about 19 the Vice President has to make the decision.

20 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

21 !J When I talk about that, 22 that's the undercurrent that's dawned in my mind from 23 August 2000 and evolved into the turbine bypass valve 24 type issue.

25 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.

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1 M I'm jumping around a little 2 bit, but I think you know all the issues well enough 3 now. When I answer a question on the BF-19 at Salem 4 in August of 2003 and I say, gosh, it went better. It 5 was the right people involved. It was not only 6 shorter but more timely and the right people were 7 involved; that's the framework that I'm coming from.

8 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

9 .. That would be like in my 10 world the way I answer questions from you, that's --

11 that's -- to jump to the end, that's a concrete 12 difference I see today than yesterday.

13 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: A good change?

14 Yes.

15 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

16 Yes. And that can be 17 judgmental with yourself and other members of the NRC, 18 but that's the way I see things.

19 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

20 I wanted to talk about some 21 other stuff on the TARP and overall. From a 22 management perspective, and I don't want to blame 23 everything on this TARP thing, but when you get into 24 this management response thing management like myself 25 and many others up here and level below me during that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 time frame are always running from fire to fire.

2 Always running from fire to fire. And when we talked 3 about that March 2003 thing and the plants don't run 4 well, and this is not a well performing site, but when 5 they don't, then you can never ground the site on the 6 programs and processes needed to move forward in a 7 systematic and controlled fashion because to get to 8 this process you're always being demanded to run from 9 fire to fire.

10 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

11 And the disempowerment or 12 disengagement tends to feed on itself at that point.

13 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.

14 And tends to feed up, okay.

15 You know, we talked about the shift managers on the 16 TARP. It tends to feed up, okay. And you get in that 17 thing where we talked about it I believe off the 18 record where I'm just going to wait for the Vice 19 President to make the decision on the shutdown.

20 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

21 . Okay. So that's where the 22 context of those answers come in.

23 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: That's what 24 basically said in that meeting, though.

25 Yes.

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1 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: People -- that the 2 operator at the control room level don't have the 3 power to make that decision.

OWN .... Right.

4 5 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: It's management.

6 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Above that.

7 8

SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.

9 10 And that was -- that's my 11 point. That's my point on that.

12 I think there's two other points on this 13 organizational aspect and then we'll move on to 14 another subject that did not help the whole thing, 15 that's different today than it was yesterday. So 16 maybe I'm answering the end question also.

17 We didn't have plant managers, and we 18 talked about with the regional. Not knowing whose 19 making a decision, I'm using plant managers as one 20 example of many that can be done through this reorg 21 and what's different today than yesterday. That was 22 a real problem before.

23 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

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1 before. And the other one that's a little bit more 2 hidden and that Hub (phonetic) likes to bring up all 3 the time and he's right on the money, is the system 4 engineering role. It has been functionally eliminated 5 and functionally reinstituted it.

6 So when you look at this, what I call this 7 TARP process, it was really -- in reality it was a 8 Band-Aid for not having whose accountable for the 9 plant or whose accountable for maintenance or ops, or 10 whatnot, and whose accountable down to the equipment, ii to the system.

12 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

13 If you have that, you don't 14 need that TARP process. And then if you have somebody 15 whose accountable and they do get it.

16 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

17 SOkay. And so in my words 18 whether they're on the mark or not, what I believe is 19 that's the primary differences between today and 20 yesterday.

21 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Now you have plant 22 managers where before you didn't.

23 Functionally reinstituted

WJ ..........

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1 system engineers. Under whose regime were the system 2 engineering taken away? Was it was it 3 before that?

4 V I think it was before it, 5 actually.

6 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

7 I think it was before it.

8 And we said we had them, but we didn't.

9 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

10 We didn't.

11 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: And who --

12 And some poor guy who had 13 surf water and service water at Salem and Hope Creek, 14 can you imagine having those four systems on the -- I 15 don't know how well you know this site.

16 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Well, I've heard a 17 lot about service water in the last three or four 18 months. So I couldn't imagine doing much more than 19 that even.

20 It's a horrible thing.

21 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: And when was the 22 system engineering group reconstituted? Was it fairly 23 recent?

24 In the

reorg this summer.

25 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

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1 Yes.

2 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.

3 Yes. Some of those guys have 4 the same things, but they're -- and it's not perfect.

5 It's not perfect. They got a long way to go.

6 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

7 They got a lot of catching up 8 to do. But they're on the right track.

9 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes. You now on 10 the right book.

11 Right.

12 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: You're talking 13 about people being given titles and responsibility?

14 Right. Right.

15 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: But now you have 16 new people running the site now also?

17 Right.

18 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: We talked about 19 that some.

20 I'd like to 21 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Or you want to get 22 to that in a little bit.

23 I'd like to get to that in a 24 little bit.

25 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.

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k Yes, if I could.

2 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.

3 Because I think that -- I 4 think at least in my heart I'm giving you some tone 5 and perspective on some of the events that will help 6 you draw lines along with the residents and others and 7 other interviews you have. But anyway, I'll take some 8 more stabs and hopefully it'll help you out.

9 Whether it assists empowerment or not, I 10 won't pass any more judgments. But in my opinion 11 there was clearly some leadership issues that we had 12 in the examples that you've asked me about.

13 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

14 . And whether -- I'm not going 15 to pass judgment on why.

16 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.

17 . But here's my words. The 18 several examples where department managers failed to 19 draw "lines in the sand" and say that's enough. And 20 the classic example I could give you, which I'm sure 21 you've been interviewing people on, is this exhaust 22 leakage on the Bravo diesel at Hope Creek where these 23 guys --

24 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: You brought that 25 up.

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1 /* Yes.

2 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: During our first 3 interview.

4 Okay.

5 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right. The 6 manifold leak that's leaking out.

7 It's like keeping your car 8 running and in the garage.

9 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: In the garage.

10 UAnd going in to work on your 11 circular saw. You just wouldn't do it.

12 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

13 'And we should have shut it 14 down. We should have shut it down and fixed it.

15 Ultimately, we probably could have done it in 30 hours3.472222e-4 days 0.00833 hours 4.960317e-5 weeks 1.1415e-5 months 16 safety in an LCO (phonetic), but that time cite if we 17 had planned it up right. But that was inappropriate.

18 And the research seal, which we've talked about, could 19 be another example of that.

20 Can we go off the record for a second?

21 I'll read some of these notes here and then I'll come 22 back.

23 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.

24 MMMM I just don't want to miss 25 anything.

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1 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: It's 5:51.

2 (Whereupon, a recess).

3 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Back on. It's 4 about 5:53.

5 We were going to talk about the IMPO 6 (phonetic) evaluation, the last IMPO evaluation of the 7 plant.

8 Yes. On the IMPO evaluation, 9 you asked me some questions, Jeff, in October on the--

10 on the IMPO stuff. And I'm losing track. We've been 11 on and off the record a couple of times. I don't think 12 I've said this on the record or not yet, but --

13 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: No, we haven't 14 talked about this tonight.

15 Okay. In my experience with 16 corporate at public service, and corporate being 17 senior management and anyone else involved in the 18 operation from Newark, I haven't -- I could.not point 19 to an event or an issue at my level or my involvement 20 that I saw that was -

21 22 (phonetic) up there, you know those type 23 people, putting business pressures on us that were 24 undue.

25 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

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6'1 1 M lf I don't -- that's just not --

2 at least I interface with them several times a year, 3 not on a regular basis, but I never saw or heard or 4 felt a notion of that. And I wanted to talk about 5 some examples that -- about the IMPO thing.

6 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Well, I mean, I 7 think I asked you this the first time we talked; when 8 4 is being so strongly positioned on the 9 turbine bypass valve issue.

10 Right.

11 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: I asked you do you 12 have any knowledge of him getting any direction from 13 Newark management on that issue? You looked at me 14 like I was crazy. And still you --

15 I don't know. And then the 16 thing that disturbed me was I made some reference on 17 that tape --

18 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

19 if With Dr. Harmon on there.

20 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: There is a 21 reference to Newark, right.

22 Yes. And I -- the reason I'm 23 going past this, what I'm reading from here is this is 24 what I wrote that Saturday or Sunday after -- after 25 that initial interview with you.

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1 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes. Okay.

2 And I don't know where 3 whether that reference that I said in Dr. Harmon's 4 office came from. Okay. I'm not disputing, 5 obviously, that I said it.

6 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

7 But I don't -- I honestly 8 searched my brain and thought down and wrote several 9 things down. And I couldn't come up with a tie that 10 would make me say that.

11 And I do have -- I did come up with a 12 reference that I thought could be useful for the 13 investigation, perhaps, but that wasn't -- that wasn't 14 any undue pressure, schedule pressure that --

15 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

16 was 17 putting on.

18 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Well, go ahead.

19 The reference is this, 20 obviously site operations is the IMPO thing haven't 21 been that great and we get this -- this IMPO 3 grade, 22 the low grade --

23 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

24 ..... in 2002, in the summer of 25 2002. And I'm in a meeting on October 9th where in NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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69 1 this building here, in the CNO's office with the 2 senior management team here. This was after the IMPO 3 evaluation. I mean, we had some presentation to do on 4 what our plan was. It was accountability meeting.

5 And the attendees were 7

8 W.j(phonetic), but I'm not sure.

9 And we went through some -- what our plans 10 were and what we're going to do for the next two years 12 to kind of improve. And nobody was feeling great 12 about where we were.

13 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

14 And he was quiet --

15 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Who's that?

16 17 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

18 He was very pointed when he 19 said it, and he said "All I'm looking for is results 20 and matrix on improvement that this is a healthy 21 nuclear operation." And he was very pointed. He was 22 very short. He wasn't -- he wasn't screaming. He 23 wasn't cursing. He wasn't doing anything -- any 24 haranguing. He was all about he wants excellent 25 operations down here. "And if you can't deliver it,"

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1 this was the quote as I re member it, "If you can't 2 deliver it, I'm capable of finding somebody who will."

3 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

4 .- And whatever operations 5 haven't been satisfactory, whatever, it's internally 6 generated whether there's oversight that provides the 7 feedback. I've been around the guy and the company 8 since he's been a% That's his manner.

9 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

10* *, And I -- so that's the most 11 recent example I could give, which was very direct. I 12 was in the room and I went through the whole painful 13 grading process with him sitting in there. And then 14 six weeks later. So having to sit through this 15 meeting and -- and I believe that that's what he's 16 about. And I believe that those under him are the 17 same way, they reflect that. So that's my position 18 there.

19 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Could people have 20 taken it the wrong way, though.? Like, I mean, he 21 wanted nuclear operating excellence? Is that the 22 words thatem lused?

23 . Yes. He knows -- he knows 24 what it takes to --

25 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

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1. -- you know, have a good 2 operating facility at a nuclear site.

3 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right. But if 4 you're not operating at near peak or near peak 5 capacity, then --

6 No, this guys was -- this guy 7 was at one time, you know, I forget what the title is.

8 But the head utility guy down at IMPO and he knows all 9 the elements of a health nuclear organization.

10 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: He's from a nuclear 11 background, you're saying?

12 Yes. He used to work at 13 Millstone I think he started his career as a reactor 14 engineer there at Millstone many years ago.

15 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

16 *. Oh, yes, he -- he knows 17 probably as well as any CEO that's in the fleet.

18 So--

19 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Did you take his 20 comment or direction as a indication that he wanted 21 peak capacity maybe when it --

22 No.

23 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: -- through plant 24 operations or couldn't support that?

25 I No. That's what I'm saying.

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1 I know where you're leading. I never -- I can't 2 emphasize this enough. I never got that impression.

3 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: That he was placing 4 undue pressure on the site to keep the plant up?

5 Right.

6 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Keep the plant 7 operating dispute what's really going on?

8 w: Yes.

9 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Never got that, 10 never saw that, never heard that, is that right?

11 That's correct. The whole 12 focus from our corporate operation is, you know, if 13 there's ever a physical challenge, it's from a 14 business -- from a cost control end. To give you what 15 you need but then you hit what you say you're going to 16 hit.

17 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

18 W Money wise.

19 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

20 And that's -- now that 21 question for you, okay, the only thing I can say is 22 is, you know, I don't know where you goal here is and 23 everything you can flush out, but that question needs 24 to be asked to levels above me. Because I'm just 25 giving you a lot of buffer between me and what's at NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 Newark. But that's what I know.

2 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: You know, talking 3 about costs and they give you what they need, have 4 there been issues down here where if it's determined 5 that the cost is going to be a corporate cost and not 6 a nuclear cost, the decision's easier to okay let's go 7 ahead and do it then?

8 No.

9 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Because I got a --

10 I forgot about this.

11 I don't know what you mean by 12 corporate nuclear cost.

13 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right There's an 14 issue where the -- in September of this year, there's 15 arcing out in the switchyard.

16 Yes.

17 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Do you know about 18 this?

19 . Yes. Because Hurricane 20 Isabel --

21 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right, the 22 hurricane. is involved in this.

23 24 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: And --

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1 that night.

2 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right. And from 3 what I understand, he actually went out to the 4 switchyard, saw what he was being told.

5Right 6 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: And then when the 7 problem then becomes a corporate type piece of 8 equipment, okay, we'll go ahead and now do what we 9 have to do. Because it's not in our cost anymore. Do 10 you know anything about that?

11 Yes, I know a lot about it.

12 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Did you get a whiff 13 of it being the way I just described it?

14 NO.

15 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Any --

16 No. This is -- this is I'm 17 glad you brought this one up. I mean, this is another 18 one like --

19 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: This is fresh. This 20 is fairly fresh.

21 Yes. Like we were talking 22 about a little bit ago in the service water thing.

23 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

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1 between, you know, I use the names, 2 (phonetic) regimes?

3 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

4 7- This is one of those good 5 story/bad story things.

6 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

7 The good story on the Isabel 8 thing is well the preps were good. You know, you got 9 the salting thing. It looked like the Pacific Ocean 10 out there when I was here that day and when it was 11 storming.

12 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

13 . And actually here on 14 midnight where he staffed up the emergency response 15 facility.

16 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

17 . And he's the senior guy.

18 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Because a 19 hurricane's coming in. Right.

20 .. This is actually the day 21 after the hurricane, as I'm sure where you live, too, 22 we got a heck of a lot of wind but we didn't get as 23 much rain as we thought.

24 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

25 n But what happened was, it was NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 blowing up here and that salt water went into the air, 2 into the atmosphere and it blew onto the insulator.

3 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

4 A So then on that Friday night, 5 I think it was, I remember this was going on -- or 6 Thursday night it all evaporated of the ground. What 7 was left was the salt deposits.

8 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.

9 I And -- and it was a 10 (inaudible) out there.

11 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.

12 And we had had a problem with 13 the Hope Creek unit, it was down during the hurricane.

14 And at the Salem units, as here and along with 15 some others. .(phonetic) was the I 16 remember him, too. And *;as1 actually the one that 17 made the recommendation, you know, the unit's going to 18 -- has a strong likelihood of tripping --

19 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

20 . -- that night because the 21 thing -- if one of these arcs make it to ground, well 22 that'll be enough to trip things in the switch yard 23 and then that'll -ultimately take the unit out of 24 service. So we ought to take the units out of service 25 for lack of that.

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1 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

2 j AAnd we did.

3 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

4 And we did. And went through 5 cleaning all the insulators and whatnot.

6 I think -- I don't know where you're 7 getting your information, Jeff, but my memory is the 8 phone calls had to go up to Newark that we were --

9 that we had to shut both units down. Obviously we had 10 to call them. But we had to shut both units down and 11 here was why. And then what happened was there was 12 questions afterwards the next morning on whose 13 responsible to clean the insulators because of the 14 divisions of -- it wasn't a revenue thing.

15 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right. It's a cost 16 thing.

17

Yes. Yes. Well, it was like 18 a maintenance cost thing on -- you know, we got to 19 come down here and we had to go clean off all the 20 insulators in the whole switchyard.

21 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.

22 And there were -- there were 23 people from the regulated side of the business.

24 Because the regulated side of the business in, at 25 least in New Jersey, starts at the step up transformer NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 out of the plant.

2 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

3 Or just after it. So that's 4 what that was all about.

5 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

6 I think that's about the 7 maintenance costs of cleaning the insulators during 8 that following week. Not about the lost generation --

9 SPECIAL-AGENT TEATOR: Right.

10 -- of bringing the units 11 down..

12 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: How about -- talk 13 about this particular ibsue.

14Sure.

15 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Old regime versus 16 new regime?

17 Oh, for this one?

18 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.

19 Oh, yes. Well, this is like 20 a dichotomy type thing that I talked about before. I 21 mean, my view of this is, you know, everybody gets on 22 a conference call. And, hey, you know in the old 23 regime this was TARP, everybody drive in. You know, 24 I say everybody; some duty guys they have to muster 25 up. And we had the luxury of already having the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 emergency response facility here.

2 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

3 j But in this case it was -- so 4 we had a decision maker there. But nevertheless, the 5 lwho was4 H* I was on two conference 6 calls that night I remember. And the first one was he

.7 calls up, 8 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR:

9 (phonetic)?

10 Yes. And the 11 I'm not sure if he was there or not, -

12 (phonetic). And IW says I want to get these five 13 guys on the line because I want to talk about this.

14 And I was one of those guys. Okay. So I got on the 15 line. Because -just wants input, right?

16 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.

17 - This is around 1:00 in the 18 morning. And it was a very short conversation. And 19 said basically what we just talked about. It's 20 a light show out there. I'm concerned about it and I 21 want to bring the units down. It was actually "I'm 22 concerned about, I have these concerns."

23 And I thin .was the one who said, my 24 recollection of it, he says to the OS, he says "Well, 25 what do you want to do?" And he says "I think we NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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%vv*6

1 ought to shut down."

2 And he says okay. And then somebody says, 3 you know what, there's ERO (phonetic) folks here and 4 then someone said it was either -- because we're 5 sitting at home, right? In the middle of the night 6 what are you going to do? You're not there looking at 7 it.

8 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

9 And then somebody says well 10 why don't just get another set of eyes. So they 1i staffed up a bunch of ERO or trapped a bunch of ERO 12 people, of whidh was the leading guy.

13 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: What's ERO?

14 . Emergency response 15 organization.

16 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

17 . Who were here for the storm 18 recovery anyway.

19 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

20 And ýgoes out there and 21 looks at it --

22 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: With 23 Yes. With \ and 24 there's another conference call in like 20 minutes.

25 And --

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1 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: What'so, 's say?

2 Anything?

3 -- m U Let's go.

4 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Go meaning?

5 Let's shut down. Don't wait.

6 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

7 And nobody even came in. It 8 was like, okay, we're on board.

9 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right. All is go 10 with that?

11 Yes. He made the decision 12 and let's go. I mean, the whole thing happened in my 13 recollection -- my recollection was two phone calls.

14 I don't know how long it was. It seemed like it was 15 a short amount of time.

16 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

17 IIt certainly wasn't anything 18 more than an hour.

19 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

20 l-:ý And they were moving the 21 plant. And I believe -- I believe it would have been 22 reven if wasn't there. I don't think that 23 that was a major player, and so --

24 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: More that you want 25 to go into or you want to go right to --

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1 No.

2 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Let's talk about 3 like you and I first talked in October.

4 Yes.

5 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: October 6th. Have 6 you seen changes in management decision making 7 processes. Can we talk about that a little bit?

8 Sure.

9 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Is it better down 10 here? Is it getting better progressively under the 11 new management regime that we could talk from that 12 standpoint? If it is, let's talk about it. If not, 13 then we'll talk that, too.

14 I think it is.

15 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.

16 I can answer on several 17 levels.

18 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Please.

19 Let's start on the levels 20 that we've been on. The plant manager level and 21 dealing with the plants. We've used several examples 22 which you can draw from. We've already talked about 23 the most recent be the insulators, you know, and some 24 of this moving away from this thought process and 25 everything else we've talked about.

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1 I think that comes from having 2 accountability and the right folks in the right spots.

3 So, and -- well, I'll talk little bit more about that 4 in a second, but that's all very positive.

5 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

6 * *And the plants and equipment 7 aren't running as well as we'd like them to do, and 8 we've got a lot of work to do there.

9 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

10 ., But from our ability to make 11 decisions at the right levels with the right folks, 12 that change is dramatic. And I think I've enough 13 examples on that I don't need to go into that anymore.

14 One thing we haven't talked about that I 15 see is an improvement is, you know, we talked about 16 some of the negative effects of this TARP thing and 17 all, but you take somebody like -- someone in my 18 position or someone in poosition. He's the 19

20 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

21 i And the folks who work for 22 us, now we have -- you know, all the engineering 23 positions and design engineering, system engineering, 24 component engineering, the (inaudible) and whatnot, 25 outages, work management; those people aren't being NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 drawn to the fire when something happens. They're 2 being handled within the station.

3 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

4 Now, they have the expertise 5 where necessary they are. But what I'm talking about 6 was this thought process. So I think what we're going 7 to see is in time we're going to get to what you 8 normally -- well, it's already happening. But what 9 you normally see in nuclear organizations where people 10 are focusing on being held accountable for processes 11 and aren't being pulled out everyday like hit sock 12 (phonetic) or go chase whatever the --

13 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: The fire is?

14 *.-- the most recent fire is.

15 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

16 A piece of equipment. And 17 that we're already starting in my world from when I 18 look at data and know what I'm doing kind of deeper in 19 the organization, we're already seeing -- starting to 20 see the benefits of that.

21 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Good.

22 One example I've used on the 23 record would be the PM program. And not to go into 24 details --

25 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: The what program?

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1 The preventive maintenance 2 program.

3 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: .Okay.

4 .And I think we're starting to 5 see some benefits there. And I think I see -- you'll 6 see positive going forward. And so -- on the -- on 7 the plant manager level, on the plant level I think 8 that's very positive.

9 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: How about the 10 corrective action process?

11 -* Very similar to that with a--

12 with a probably new spin is -- there's people 13 dedicated to running the process. I think that's 14 better. I think it's going to take time to see the 15 changes. A lot of these things that you get were 16 corrective action often times are latent -- you know.

17 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.

18 They're time delayed by some 19 level depending on the organization you're looking at.

20 Design engineering is going to be very long, plan 21 issues can be a couple of months. However, I think 22 that's better.

23 I think that the other thing that you see 24 is I'm fairly positive about that, too, the ownership 25 in the plants. And, (phonetic) is probably NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 the best example of this where he really changes the 2 mindset of the value of corrective action for the 3 folks. He's one of the "at Hope Creek.

4 As opposed to 7(phonetic) at Salem. So I 5 think that's helping as well.

6 I think that's going to take a longer 7 time, Jeff, to really see the fruits. And I think we 8 got -- well, I don't think. We have quite a bit of gap 9 to make up there.

10 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.

11 But I1 think you're seeing 12 this on the right track with some of this stuff 13 already.

14 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Have you seen -- I 15 mean, of that senior management group it seems like 16 is still the only one here. F' 17 gone.,gone.

18 '"

19 here.

20 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. !.

21 *sgone.

22 Have you seen any change -- because 23 Mail 24 IYes 25 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. And at one NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 point he as 2 Yes.

3 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: And the 4 took over for him?

5 Yes.

6 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: But have you seen 7 a change in how he's handling issues, addressing 8 issues since the new management team has come on site 9 here? Have you seen a change in him?

10 1I have to think about that 11 one. I guess. I don't know if I have concrete 12 examples there. Are you talking specifically about a

13 14 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes. Well, let me 15 ask you this question, you had that one dealing with 16 .in a meeting where he pushed the meeting 17 to the last --

18 Yes.

19 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: It was an 20 excessively long meeting where everybody thought it 21 was a black and white issues?

22 Right. Right.

23 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Had you ever 24 experienced similar conduct from on an 25 issue like that?

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1 l No.

2 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: An operability of 3 tech spec type issues?

4 1 No. Not really. Not really.

5 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.

6 Well, obviously where my mind 7 is going, Jeff, was the -- I was going to answer the 8 question completely differently, so --

9 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Well, you answer--

10 Okay.

11 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: -- you know, the 12 way you think you need to. And I'll ask a follow-up 13 if I got a question.

14 Okay. --- in, mes 15 and I've talked off the record a little bit, but L 16 having worked for several of these guys, you know, has 17 a really unique style that he -- he's -- he's 18 completely hands off as far as -- directly as far as 19 the operation goes, and really -- really holds you 20 accountable, if you will, I mean in a positive way.

21 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

22 To execute. And then he has 23 his plan on how you get better. And I don't know if 24 you know ! or not, but 25 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: No, I don't.

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1 But if you engage him in 2 conversation, he'd be happy to walk through the steps 3 of how you make one of these operations spin. And 4 he's implementing that plan. And the first step was 5 a reorganization step and establishing metrics and 6 monitoring those metrics. And going back and 7 adjusting again based on what the metrics tell you.

8 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

9 it And it's working. And it 10 obviously works. He's done this four or five times 11 successfully.

12 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: You mentioned his 13 management style; has he empowered the plant managers, 14 the shift managers -

15 Absolutely.

16 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: -- to be able to 17 make the decisions where before it didn't exist or 18 they weren't given the authority from; "You don't 19 get it." He's given the people, the proper people --

20 Absolutely.

21 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: -- the decision

22. making authority now? That's good. You see that as 23 a positive?

24 Oh, absolutely. I can give 25 you examples of that.

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1 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

2 . And we'll get back to in 3 a second.

4 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.

5 okay.

6 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: It's got to get on 7 the record.

8 .*Because I still didn't answer 9 your full question. But the wa &Wdoes it, 10 and I'm smiling because I've sat in for 11 (inaudible),

12 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

13 'And he's been on the road a 14 couple of times for various things. And he's moved as 15 well as recently for business reasons, I'm his stand 16 in. And I've had to call ja couple of times with 17 some of these plant movements. And I start giving him 18 some details. And he stops me. And I'm training now.

19 But he says, "Look, , he says "First of all, 20 this is what you have to do; is the plant safe?"

21 Answer the question. Is the plant safe? All right.

22 Here's the condition and okay, good. "Are all the 23 people safe?" Yes. "Nobody have any challenges and 24 whatnot?" And -- and -- I forget what the third one 25 is. And he a question about is everybody on board NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 with what the situation is. Basically if they're on 2 it. Yes. He goes "That's fine." I mean that's all 3 he wants to know.

4 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

5 He doesn't -- so it's great.

6 It's very refreshing. And then he'll come back with 7 a day later with how we doing with the plant, did it 8 recovery and give you time to do it.

9 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Good.

10 I So it's very -- he has a very 11 long term view.

12 So anyway, the reason I brought up T 13 14 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.

15 Let me get back to 16 17 SPgCIAL AGENT TEATOR:

18 The way I was trying to 19 answer the question was, was I think with that change, 20 with the I-Mwa*change 21 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.

22 - - anybody at that level is 23 going to have -- officers for the company are going to 24 have anxiety whether they're still here or not, right?

25 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.

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1 Both physically and 2 emotionally and support wise. So they work through 3 that. And so when you asked me the question, I think 4 that there was some anxiety withf okay, on that 5 score. I think he went through that phase. I think 6 what we're starting to see now is we're moving into 7 the management team. And then is on 8 board, this is a new member, and - has a 9 different role. I think they had to get into their 10 lanes again .

11 (Whereupon, off the record. End of tape 12 1 side 2.)

13 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: We're on to tape 2.

14 And we were talking about L ._,. his new 15 management style and . And why don't you 16 go ahead.

17..1 Yes. I think I'm ready to 18 wrap up that. And if there's any other questions.

19 My opinion is -- the way I was going to 20 answer your question was that seems to be 21 understanding his role now as the..... m.*

22 and really getting grounds in the metrics and building 23 a team, being a member of the team with a senior 24 leadership. And it looks to me like -- like he's 25 settling in. So, that's my overall answer.

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1 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. Generally 2 speaking --

4 SPECIAL-AGENT TEATOR: -- do you feel the 5 work environment has improved since the new management 6 has come on board?

7 1~'do.

8 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: For the reasons 9 we've talked about?

10 Yes.

11 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: And people being 12 empowered, bringing systems engineering back, bringing 13 plant managers and others -- we've talked about lots 14 of--

15

Right. All the examples 16 we've talked about.

17 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Those are some of 18 the --

19

I'm pretty comfortable with 20 all that.

21 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

22 And I think there's more to 23 come. I mean, I'm --

24 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes, he hasn't been 25 here that long.

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.

Right.

2 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right? I mean, and 3 this is a big site.

4 Right.

5 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: One of the biggest.

6 There's more to come.

7 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right. And we did 8 hit on this just a few minutes ago, but the direction 9 from and the decision making from the senior 10 management at the type level, it 11 doesn't sound like that that's -- they're not waiting 12 indirectly. They're, like you said, you had them on 13 the phone, he's asking you is the plant safe, are the 14 people safe.

15 16 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: We aligned? Fine.

17 And then a couple of days later --

18 *Right.

19 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: -- the follow-up 20 question might be how we doing in recovery of the 21 plant.

22 Right.

23 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: If you have to turn 24 it off?

25 Right.

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1 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: That's a different 2 thing how it used to be under the 3 regime.

4 Yes.

5 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right?

6 Yes.

7 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Is the TARP team

.8 concept done with here?

9 . It's -- it's still there on 10 paper. I believe it's been scaled back procedurally.

11 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.

12 But we're using it very 13 sparingly. I think that's -- I think we scaled it 14 back significantly by the procedure. Certainly not to 15 where we see some of these issues that we talked about 16 in this interview and in October.

17 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. One more 18 thing on senior management direct input involved in 19 the decision making. When did that first start?

20 Before kame on or did it start after the 21 8/2000 meeting wher -,says "You don't get it?"

22 . My answer from my perspective 23 is the 8/2000.

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96 1 was the recovery of the Salem units. And my answer 2 from my -- where I sit is the 8/2000 thing.

3 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. I don't have 4 anything else.

5 Let me check my notes one 6 more time. I don't think I do either.

7 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.

8 . I just wanted to say this on 9 the record, I asked to talk to you. And I know we're 10 both very busy. I know you probably waned to look a 11 few more things before you got back to me and talked 12 to a few more people. I respect that. And I will tell 13 you this, you know, I'm more than willing to share 14 this information that we talked about today and look 15 for some other things. Because I'm interested in 16 fixing it.

17 So if there's other stuff you need in the 18 future, let me know.

19 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: I appreciate that.

20 People don't usually tell me that.

21 I can understand that.

22 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Listen, I 23 appreciate your time tonight, your patience and 24 answering the questions I've asked. If there's 25 anything more you want to add?

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1 2

SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR:

It's about 6:25.

3 Tt is interview is concluded. Thank You.

4 (Whereupon, the interview was concluded 5

at 6 :25 p.m.)

6

-7 8

9 10 11.

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4U CERTIFICATE This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the matter of:

Name of Proceeding: Interview of Docket Number: 1-2003-OSIF Location: Hancocks Bridge, NJ were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission taken by me and, thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under the direction of the court reporting company, and that the transcript is a true and accurate record of the foregoing proceedings as recorded on tape(s) provided by the NRC.

)Jud jHadley Official Transcriber Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

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