ML060690400
| ML060690400 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Salem, Hope Creek  |
| Issue date: | 08/10/2004 |
| From: | Teator J NRC/OI |
| To: | |
| References | |
| -RFPFR, 1-2004-002, FOIA/PA-2005-0194 | |
| Download: ML060690400 (53) | |
Text
1 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
4 OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS 5 INTERVIEW 6 ______ _ -__ _ x 7 IN THE MATTER OF:
8 INTERVIEW OF : Docket No.
9 RICK PFEFFER : 1-2004-002 10 (CLOSED) 11 -_________ x 12 13 Tuesday, August 10, 2004 14 Resident Inspector's Office 15 Salem Hope Creek Station 16 Hancock's Bridge, NJ 17 18 19 The above-entitled interview was conducted at 20 (time not provided).
21 22 BEFORE:
23 Senior Special Agent JEFF TEATOR 24
./
25 J oQ' _0$ $3
- 2 L1 °4 Information in this record was deie~ed NEAL R. GROSS in accordance with the Freedom of Information COU IRT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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2 1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Today's date is 3 August 10th. The year is 2004.
4 My name is Jeffery Teator. I'm a Senior 5 Special Agent with the United States Nuclear 6 Regulatory Commission, Office of Investigations.
7 And this morning I'm interviewing Mr. Rick 8 Pfeffer. Is that the correct pronunciation?
9 MR. PFEFFER: Pfeffer. Correct. Yes.
10 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. Thank you.
11 And this interview is taking place in the 12 Conference Room at the Resident Inspector's Office at 13 Salem Hope Creek Generating Station located in 14 Hancock's Bridge, New Jersey.
15 Mr. Pfeffer, prior to going on the record, 16 did I present you with my credentials?
17 MR. PFEFFER: Yes. You did.
18 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. Did I 19 explain to you this is a voluntary interview?
20 MR. PFEFFER: Yes.
21 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Knowing it's 22 voluntary, do you wish to go forward?
23 MR. PFEFFER: Yes. I do.
24 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. Thank you.
25 Mr. Pfeffer, do you have any objection NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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3 1 this morning to providing sworn testimony?
2 MR. PFEFFER: I do not.
3 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Raise your right 4 hand for me please.
5 Mr. Pfeffer, do you swear that the 6 information that you are about to provide to me is the 7 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
8 MR. PFEFFER: Yes. I do.
9 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Thank you.
10 Mr. Pfeffer, you're being interviewed 11 today strictly as a fact witness in an investigation 12 that I'm conducting for the NRC. And the 13 investigation is of an incident that occurred on 14 September 21st, 2002. And during the evening shift of 15 that night, there was a steam leak and the issue at 16 hand is went and closed the valve. And 17 the NRC is trying to determine whethe did 18 that with the knowledge and understanding of the shift 19 manager and others in the control room or he did that 20 on his own without providing that communication to the 21 control room staff that he was going to do that.
22 So, that's the issue I'm going to be 23 talking to you about. Again, you're just consider a 24 fact witness in this investigation. No one has 25 accused you of doing anything wrong at all. But it is NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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4 1 your obligation to answer all my questions truthfully 2 and completely.
3 Do you understand that?
4 MR. PFEFFER: Yes. I do understand.
5 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. Thank you.
6 Could we start by getting your -- say your 7 full name and spell your last name for the record 8 please.
9 MR. PFEFFER: Sure. My name is Richard 10 Pfeffer. P-F-E-F-F-E-R.
11 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. Thanks.
12 And your date and place of birth?
13 MR. PFEFFER: I was born in 14 15 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: And what is your 16 Social Security Number please?
17 MR. PFEFFER: Social Security Number is 18 19 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Thank you. Your 20 current home address?
21 MR. PFEFFER:
22 23 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: The zip there?
24 MR. PFEFFER: Zip code 25 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Which way is NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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5 1 ~ from the plant?
2 MR. PFEFFER: It would be north. North of 3 here.
4 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. Do you go --
5 is it off of 295? Is it up that far? Or you don't go 6 that way to go home?
7 MR. PFEFFER: No need to go 295. Just go 8 into Salem and take Route 45 to That's 9 all.
10 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. How far 11 away?
12 MR. PFEFFER: About 20 miles.
13 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Your home phone 14 number please?
15 MR. PFEFFER: I'm at area code I /-
16 4WD TEATOR: Have you ever 17 SPECIAL AGENT 18 served in the United States military?
19 MR. PFEFFER: No. I have not.
20 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right. Have 21 you attended college?
22 MR. PFEFFER: I attended two years junior 23 college, Gloucester County College. That's in Sewell, 24 new Jersey.
25 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: And did you obtain NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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6 1 a degree from there?
2 MR. PFEFFER: I have an associates degree 3 in liberal arts. Yes.
4 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. Any further 5 degrees?
6 MR. PFEFFER: No further degrees. I have 7 some additional college study, both in West Virginia 8 University and at Glassboro, what is now Rowan 9 University.
10 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right. Okay.
11 And when were you first hired to work here 12 at Salem Hope Creek? When was that?
13 MR. PFEFFER: I was hire ,0tober 9th in 14 198?
15 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: And what was your 16 first job here?
17 MR. PFEFFER: My first job was a -- called 18 a utility operator, which was a field helper in the 19 operations department 20 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
21 MR. PFEFFER: At Sales Station.
22 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: At some point did 23 you become licensed on the Salem units?
24 MR. PFEFFER: I became licensed January of 25 1994.
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7 1 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: What type of 2 license did you obtain?
3 MR. PFEFFER: I have a reactor operator's 4 license --
5 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
6 MR. PFEFFER: -- for Salem Unit 1 and Unit 7 2.
8 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. Is it 9 controlled in the joint control room or are they 10 separate?
11 MR. PFEFFER: Well, there are separate 12 control rooms, but we have dual licenses.
13 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. And have you 14 remained in re-qualification and has your license 15 remained in effect since January '94?
16 MR. PFEFFER: Yes. It has.
17 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. And your 18 current job title please?
19 MR. PFEFFER: I'm a nuclear control 20 operator.
21 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: That's a reactor 22 operator?
23 MR. PFEFFER: Reactor operation. Yes.
24 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. And what 25 shift do you work on?
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8 1 MR. PFEFFER: I work on the Bravo Shift.
2 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: And who is the CRS 3 on that shift? Or they call them shift managers now.
4 MR. PFEFFER: Shift manager currently is 5 Eric Powell.
6 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: P-O-W-E-L-L?
7 MR. PFEFFER: Correct.
8 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. The night in 9 question that we're going to talk about is September 10 21st, 2002, and you were 12 hour1.388889e-4 days <br />0.00333 hours <br />1.984127e-5 weeks <br />4.566e-6 months <br /> shift there, so you 11 must have come in on the 21st and then you went home 12 on the morning of the 22nd.
13 But our understanding is while that shift 14 was going on, a steam leak occurred.
15 Why don't we just begin by, if you can 16 tell me what your job -- if you can remember what your 17 job was that night, where you were working and at 18 about what time at night the steam leak occurred. You 19 can start there, I guess.
20 MR. PFEFFER: That evening I was the plant 21 operator in Salem Unit 1 control room.
22 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: What's that mean, 23 plant operator? Is that balance of plant systems?
24 MR. PFEFFER: Balance of plant systems.
25 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: BOP. Okay.
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9 1 MR. PFEFFER: The steam leak occurred 2 sometime prior to midnight, I believe, that evening, 3 on unit 2. It was a unit 2 steam leak.
4 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
5 MR. PFEFFER: So, I was an observer from 6 unit 1. We have control rooms next -- adjoining 7 control rooms next, you know, so we know pretty much 8 what's going on on the other unit.
9 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Maybe you just tell 10 me a little bit about that. You said you had dual 11 licenses, but each control room is full staffed?
12 MR. PFEFFER: Each control room is fully 13 staffed. Right.
14 We have two reactor operators in each 15 unit. Each unit has a senior reactor operator and 16 then there is a shift manager who oversees both units.
17 18 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. All right.
19 Thanks.
20 So, you were the PO on Salem unit 1, 21 acting you said as an observer?
22 MR. PFEFFER: Well, I was working in unit 23 1, but I observed what was happening on unit 2 as it 24 took place.
25 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. Okay.
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10 1 All right. So, the steam leak, you 2 believe began sometime prior to midnight on Salem Unit 3 2.
4 MR. PFEFFER: I think it was sometime 5 prior to the mid-shift I had. I don't have an exact 6 time on that.
7 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
8 - MR. PFEFFER: I know it was being observed 9 for quite a long while and it seemed to be worsening, 10 so they felt they had to take some action on it.
11 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right. Do you 12 remember who the other reactor operator was on Salem 13 unit 1?
14 MR. PFEFFER: No. I don't.
15 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Do you remember who 16 the SRO was on Salem unit 1?
17 MR. PFEFFER: I don't know for sure.
18 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
19 MR. PFEFFER: Salem unit 1.
20 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: and the shift 21 manager that night was Van Ford. Is that correct?
22 MR. PFEFFER: Van Ford was the shift 23 manager.
24 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. Can you tell 25 me the names of the two reactor operators who were NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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11 1 working on Salem unit 2 that night? Do you remember 2 who they were?
3 MR. PFEFFER: I think the reactor operator 4 was Matt Lutek.
5 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Are you going to 6 try and spell that for me?
7 MR. PFEFFER: L-U-T-E-K.
8 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: That's not too bad.
9 All right.
10 MR. PFEFFER: And the -- I don't remember 11 who the PO was.
12 The senior reactor operator in charge of 13 the unit was Bill White.
14 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Bill White. All 15 right.
16 Can I ask you a question? Why is it you 17 remember the names of those two guys on the other unit 18 and is there a reason? Did they do something that 19 stuck in your mind, because you don't remember the 20 names of the guys on your unit?
21 MR. PFEFFER: Just because I remember the 22 incident.
23 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
24 MR. PFEFFER: And I remember what happened 25 on the evening of the incident.
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12 1 Unit 1 was very uneventful that evening.
2 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
3 MR. PFEFFER: So, I --
4 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Well, I guess 5 that's good so they could focus on what was going on 6 at unit 2.
7 MR. PFEFFER: Right.
8 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. Tell me what 9 you remember of the incident.
10 MR. PFEFFER: I know it was pointed out by 11 the operators in the field that there was a pretty 12 severe steam leak on the main steam valve that was 13 going to one of the feed pump -- one of the steam 14 generator feed pumps.
15 They had a difficult time seeing where the 16 leak was because it was coming from underneath of 17 insulation.
18 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
19 MR. PFEFFER: And it was blowing in a way 20 that made it pretty much unapproachable so there were 21 some safety concern. And I believe that's why I 22 focused in on it because of the safety concern.
23 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Are you part of the 24 safety team that would be responsible for looking at 25 something like that after the fact or --
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13 1 MR. PFEFFER: I've been on the safety 2 committee before. But, no, currently I'm not.
3 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
4 MR. PFEFFER: And I was not at the time.
5 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.
6 MR. PFEFFER: But I have just have an 7 interest in that.
8 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right. Okay.
9 MR. PFEFFER: Beyond that, there were a 10 lot of things that took place. A lot of conversations 11 back and forth within the control room. Some of the 12 equipment operators were concerned about whether or 13 not the valve should be operated.
14 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Manually?
15 MR. PFEFFER: Manually.
16 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
17 MR. PFEFFER: It's a manual valve.
18 The control room crew was worried about 19 the impact on equipment.
20 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Weren't there some 21 busses that were starting to show signals in the 22 control room because the --
23 MR. PFEFFER: Right.
24 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: -- either the heat 25 or the moisture?
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14 1 MR. PFEFFER: Started to get some relays 2 coming in on the group busses.
3 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
4 MR. PFEFFER: And the concern was that the 5 loss of group busses would put us in a -- in the event 6 of a shutdown without forced circulation in the rack 7 to coil system.
8 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
9 MR. PFEFFER: So, there were some concerns 10 of focus on that and so they were planning on their 11 contingencies.
12 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
13 MR. PFEFFER: And it was pretty much an 14 open discussion within the control room about what the 15 options were for a shutdown.
16 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Do you remember if 17
- was part of those discussion?
18 MR. PFEFFER: was part. He was -- he 19 was there as an I believe at the time he was 20 n d his role there that evening 21 was as oversight. And I can't remember why we had 22 management oversight that evening, but he was there.
23 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. You're 24 calling being in the control room for those 25 discussions which you just describe?
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15 1 MR. PFEFFER: Yes.
2 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
3 MR. PFEFFER: He was in there.
4 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
5 MR. PFEFFER: The discussions were about 6 contingencies in the event that a shutdown had to take 7 place and how that shutdown would occur.
8 Also, engineering was consulted. I 9 remember that they called the valve engineer in to see 10 if indeed the leak was coming from the bonnet flange 11 if shutting the valve would isolate the leak.
12 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
13 MR. PFEFFER: And I think at some point 14 they found out that that was the case, that the leak 15 could be isolated by closing the valve.
16 So, at that point, it just became a matter 17 of would that be the right thing to do? Would it be 18 the safe thing to do?
19 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
20 MR. PFEFFER: And I think with the 21 information available to the crews at that time, it 22 wasn't felt that it was safe for an operator to --
23 it's a valve that's up in the air and there's a 24 platform built below it, an operating platform. So, 25 the conversation went back and forth about sending an NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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16 1 operator there and it didn't seem to be safe at the 2 time.
3 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Were operators, 4 non-licensed operators, I'll call them, refusing to go 5 and do that?
6 MR. PFEFFER: I didn't hear anybody refuse 7 to go it. I did hear a comment that it was too 8 dangerous to approach because they couldn't tell where 9 the steam was actually coming from and the fear was, 10 it was -- if the insulation were to fall off, it would 11 become worse.
12 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
13 MR. PFEFFER: And there could be injury.
14 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
15 MR. PFEFFER: So, that was the fear.
16 There was no way of seeing the bonnet bolts to see if 17 they were intact, you know, the amount of damage that 18 was underneath the insulation.
19 And that's pretty much the point that they 20 started to get some of the bus alarms in, the non-21 vital, the group bus alarms in. And they knew they 22 had to take action. They had to do something --
23 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
24 MR. PFEFFER: -- to remedy the situation.
25 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: What were the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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17 1 options at that point? What options were discussed?
2 MR. PFEFFER: Well, they had options of 3 shutting the plant down and there were concerns with 4 shutting the plant down. As they down power, the 5 pressure in the line would become greater.
6 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
7 MR. PFEFFER: As the turbine was -- as 8 they were going -- as they were downloading the 9 turbine, the steam header pressure would go higher, 10 which they thought would make the leak worse.
11 There was also the concern as the steam 12 leak obviously would get worse, that the group busses 13 would be lost.
14 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
15 MR. PFEFFER: So, it would be a 16 complicated shutdown with the only option of doing a 17 main steam line isolation if the leak worsened and 18 then having two situations occur. You would no longer 19 have steam dumps. We would just have our atomospheric 20 relief valves for our steam and we wouldn't have -- if 21 we lost the group busses, we would not have the rack 22 to coil pumps so we would have natural circulation in 23 the RCS. So, there would be two complications that 24 certainly we could handle but were not optimal 25 shutdown conditions.
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18 1 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
2 MR. PFEFFER: It got to the point and my 3 recollection is that it got to the point that the 4 decision was made to shut the unit down.
5 They did a brief or were in the midst of 6 a brief to shut the unit down and to take those types 7 of actions, those contingency actions in the event 8 that the steam leak did get worse. And before the 9 order was given to shutdown, sked that they just 10 hold on a few minutes and he would get back to them.
11 Don't shut down just now. There's something else I 12 want to check on.
13 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. Let's stop 14 for just a minute.
15 Break down for me as best you can, provide 16 as much detail as you can about what -- wha
- was 17 telling the control room staff at that point.
18 MR. PFEFFER: Just to hold on.
19 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
20 MR. PFEFFER: And that was it. I don't --
21 you know, the conversation that took place, I didn't 22 hear the conversation that took place.
23 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: What conversation?
24 MR. PFEFFER: Whether he told them if he 25 was going to do anything specifically. All I know is NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHIDE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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19 1 as they were briefing, he told them to hold on and 2 don't move forward with the shutdown.
3 He left the room.
4 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Did anyone go with 5 him? Did you see anyone go with him?
6 MR. PFEFFER: I did not see anybody.
7 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
8 When he asked or said don't start the 9 shutdown, I'm going to go check on something, was Van 10 Ford there?
11 MR. PFEFFER: Van Ford, I believe, was in 12 the control room at that time. And he and Bill were 13 both up on the pedestal.
14 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Wa 15 on or near the pedestal with them?
16 MR. PFEFFER: He was either there and left 17 from there or he was down on the floor directly below 18 there and left from the side door. Or, I guess, it 19 would the front door the control room.
20 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Try as best you can 21 to think back to where people were standing when 22 says that.
23 Q said what he said, but did you see 24 him lean over at all to, you know, get close to Van 25 Ford and maybe they had a private conversation?
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20 1 MR. PFEFFER: No. I wasn't aware of any 2 positions.
3 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. All right.
4 So, what was your understanding then about 5 what was going to occur when the decision had been 6 made that we're going to shut down an ays, hold 7 on a minute. I'm going to go check something.
8 What was your understanding of what was 9 going to occur at that point?
10 MR. PFEFFER: I didn't have an 11 understanding at that point. Beyond that point, I can 12 only make assumptions of what was happening. And I, 13 you know, it would only be assumptions from that point 14 forward.
15 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
16 MR. PFEFFER: I can tell you that I 17 thought they were shutting down. I heard Bill giving 18 that brief to do that. And then at that point it was
'Ic-19 interrupted andy
- left the room. Beyond that, I 20 don't know what happened.
21 I know that they had the information about 22 the -- if the valve could be shut it would isolate the 23 steam leak.
24 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.
25 MR. PFEFFER: I know that information was NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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21 1 available at that time.
2 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
3 MR. PFEFFER: But I don't know what was 4 being done with that. I really don't.
5 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. What happens 6 next that night?
7 MR. PFEFFER: Well, there was some time 8 that passed and people were in and out. I think they 9 had left and then everyone came back and reported that 10 the steam leak had been isolated.
11 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right. What was 12 the reaction? What was your reaction to that?
13 MR. PFEFFER: Well, we were all relieved.
14 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
15 MR. PFEFFER: Because we knew at that 16 point we wouldn't have to do a shutdown immediately 17 that would challenge our secondary plan and our 18 reactive oil pumps.
19 So, everyone was relieved.
20 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: What's the 21 secondary reaction that you had? First relief?
22 MR. PFEFFER: My secondary reaction was 23 that that something took place that not everybody was 24 aware of and again, I don't know what private 25 conversations took place between Van an to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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22 1 before he went out of the room, but it pretty much 2 seemed like a surprise that the valve had been closed.
3 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Surprised to whom?
4 MR. PFEFFER: To the crew.
5 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
6 MR. PFEFFER: And to Bill White. But Bill 7 White was relieved. I mean that was the optimum 8 result.
9 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
10 MR. PFEFFER: That was the best result 11 that could have been hoped for.
12 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: What makes you say 13 that or believe that Bill white was surprised that the 14 valve was closed? Something made you say that.
15 MR. PFEFFER: Observation. It was not any 16 statement that he made. It wasn't anything. It was 17 just watching him and knowing him that it just seemed 18 like he was little bit surprised as if nobody had 19 told him that that was taking place.
20 I can't tell you the exact words that were 21 spoken, but I can tell you shortly after that.
22 Shortly afte . xplained to the unit 2 crew, he g C 23 came over to unit 1 and said, you know, I went down 24 and shut the valve - -
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/
23 1 MR. PFEFFER: He came over '
2 and he explained to me because I asked him. I said, 3 how that happened. He said, well, I went up and shut 4 the valve. The insulation had come off to the point 5 where we could see where the leak was. It wasn't 6 directed in the same way as it as prior to the 7 insulation coming off, so I thought I had a clear path 8 to address the valve and get it closed.
9 I asked him a pointed question at that 10 time about, what are going to do for damage control?
11 And he was a little bit surprised about that. And I 12 explained to him that, you know, my observation 13 indicated to me that he had gone there and closed that 14 valve on his own, without providing feedback to the 15 control room about what was going to happen and 16 without having any of the field operators present as 17 a safety person or even an assist.
18 And his statement back to me was, well, 19 rick, it's very easy to do nothing. And that's true.
20 I mean, it's easy to do nothing and watch everything 21 fal apart.
22 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
23 MR. PFEFFER: But my reply to him was, 24 it's very hard to do the right thing sometimes. And 25 I said, what I mean by damage control is, you've just NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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24 1 demonstrated in front of room full of NEOs, field 2 operators, that what we've been preached to in safety 3 and how we address safety, doesn't matter when things 4 become -- when the high-pressure situation comes.
5 And I said, our expectations are higher 6 than that. And you have proven to us that, you know, 7 sometimes what you say is not really what you mean.
8 And I said, now you have a whole room full of guys 9 back there who weren't included in that decision to 10 close the valve, weren't asked if they would be 11 willing to close the valve, didn't have input into 12 what happened, and they're doubting. They're doubting 13 what really -- what our safety focus really is. And 14 I said tomorrow morning, they'll turn it over to 15 another crew who will have the same doubt. And before 16 -- before the end of the week, all five crews will be 17 wondering what the heck is going on.
18 So, that's what I mean about damage 19 control. I said, you've done something without 20 including those people who should have been included.
21 So, he said, what could I have done 22 better? He said, I didn't want to go -- I wouldn't 23 send somebody into a situation that I wouldn't go into 24 myself, so I figured I might as well do it myself.
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25 1 include people and the thing you could have done 2 better is to get some advice form NEO about how to 3 address the valve, how to climb up to it and how to 4 put your hands on it and be available as a safety 5 person. He could have had site protection which is 6 our fire department. They're available in case there 7 was an additional failure or an injury that took place 8 and that didn't happen because you didn't focus on the 9 safety aspect. You went right forward and closed the 10 valve knowing that that would be the good result.
11 And it was a concern of mine. I mean, 12 that - -my whole concern was not about the -- because 13 I really didn't know if he told Van it was going to 14 happen or not.
15 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: That was going to 16 be my next question.
17 Were you expressing your concern toor 18 hat evening from the safety standpoint?
19 MR. PFEFFER: The safety standpoint.
20 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Or was it -- okay.
21 I twas the safety standpoint?
22 MR. PFEFFER: Right. Because I didn't 23 know for sure that he hadn't told the control room 24 and --
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26 1 sure that he had not informed the control room?
2 MR. PFEFFER: No. I didn't know it.
3 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. Either way.
4 MR. PFEFFER: I didn't know either way.
5 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.
6 MR. PFEFFER: I had -- my foremost concern 7 was the safety aspect of it.
8 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
9 MR. PFEFFER: But then as we went through 10 the night, I had the chance to talk to Van about it 11 and Van at first when I asked him, said that he 12 understood wha as doing when he went out in the 13 field. But as I questioned him a little bit further, 14 I had the distinct impression that he did not fully 15 understand tha -)was going out to close the valve.
16 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR; Yes. Fully 17 understand and not knowing are two different things.
18 MR. PFEFFER: I had the feeling that Van 19 knew he was going to go out to look at the valve, but 20 he did not understand -- he did not know tha as 21 going to close it. Now, that's my impression from the 22 conversation. I pretty much asked him directly if he 23 knew.
24 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Tell me what you 25 asked him. Do you remember exactly what you asked NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 FIHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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27 1 Van?
2 MR. PFEFFER: Did you know he was going to 3 go close that valve?
4 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: And how did he 5 respond?
6 MR. PFEFFER: He said, well, I knew he was 7 going to go out and do something. And that was pretty 8 -- so that led me to believe that he did not know what 9 was going to take place.
10 You know, this is very difficult for me 11 because there are other operators up there who would 12 not be concerned at the least bit about what happened 13 that not. They would not be concerned about whether 14 Van knew of Van didn't know. In fact, the control 15 room crew on unit 2 was very pleased that the valve 16 got closed and they didn't much care about how it got 17 closed.
18 The reason I have a concern about the 19 whole incident is because I was here, not on site 20 during the April 7th, event in 1994.
21 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: I heard about that.
22 MR. PFEFFER: But I was here during that 23 incident as an employee and we suffered tremendously 24 because of that and because of the behaviors that took 25 place that day. And the behaviors put in a bad spot.
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28 1 And when Tom Lake did come over and talk 2 to me from the Employee Concern Program, we talked 3 about the safety aspect and we talked about what my 4 concerns were there and we also talked about my other 5 feelings which are, -that night with a steam leak, we 6 repeated some of the behaviors that manifested on 7 April 7th, 1994. Some of those behaviors, we reverted 8 back to some of those behaviors, where a control 9 command was not upheld. Control command was - -and 10 you know what? This is nothing but trouble for other 11 people.
12 But our shift manager that evening, I feel 13 lost control and command.
14 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
15 MR. PFEFFER: And I think that he knows 16 that that happened. And I think that he regrets that 17 it happened and probably having seen it played out, 18 now he realizes what it's all about and it would 19 never happen again. But it happened that night.
20 Now, Van wasn't here for the April 7th 21 event. Bu was.
22 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right. What 23 happened in April '94?
24 MR. PFEFFER: In April '94, we were 25 challenged by ---by grassing conditions in the river NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE IaLAND AVE., N.W.
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29 1 for our cooling water for our condenser cooling. And 2 we were losing and circulating pumps. And by losing 3 condenser cooling, we had to do a major down power.
4 And we were very challenged that day. And during the 5 down power because of the things that had taken place 6 in the plant, we had our rod control system in mangle.
7 And the control room operator lowered the 8 rods too far. We had a cool down event and when that 9 was realized, the supervisor came down and started to 10 raise rods.
11 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: The SRO?
12 MR. PFEFFER: The SRO. Bad situation.
13 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Came to the boards 14 and started --
15 MR. PFEFFER: Board and raised rods.
16 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
17 MR. PFEFFER: Things escalated. We had a 18 partial SI, a single train SI and didn't realize that 19 it was a single train SI. You know, we disabled it 20 but we still had the other train and we got the second 21 train of SI. We lost the RCS pressure control and 22 during this event, at the time it would have ben a 23 senior shift supervisor which would have been now the 24 Ops or the shift manager.
25 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: The shift manager?
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30 1 MR. PFEFFER: The shift manager was out in 2 the plant and he was listing the permissives to be 3 able to restore the circling water pumps and get those 4 back in service, so we could restore cooling to the 5 condenser.
6 And the big issue, the big result of that 7 was that there was a loss of control and command in 8 the control room on both the part of the shift manager 9 and the control room supervisor, the Senior Reactor 10 Operator.
11 To a lesser extent, I saw those same 12 behaviors take place during that steam leak where we 13 had someone go out into the field and manipulate 14 equipment without having everybody in tune with what 15 was going on.
16 By having that happen, similarly, the 17 shift manager gave up some control and command. There 18 was control and command that was given up that night.
19 And nobody seemed to think it was a big 20 deal. So, to Tom I put it in perspective because he 21 couldn't quite grasp, you know, why I thought it was 22 so serious. But to put it into perspective, if you 23 disregard the result, disregard the end result, and 24 look at the behaviors, the behaviors are somewhat 25 similar.
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31 1 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
2 MR. PFEFFER: If we had had a severe 3 injury, if the plant had experienced a severe 4 transient due to the actions that took place actually 5 in the steam, then that would have been under the same 6 microscope that the April 7th event in '94 was put 7 under. And if it was examined to the same extent as 8 that event, we would have come to the same conclusion 9 with control and command issues.
10 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: This discussion, I 11 want to go back to one on one with Van Ford. Or first 12 of all, was it a one on one discussion?
13 MR. PFEFFER: Van came into the room and, 14 yes, I think I talked to him one on one. I mean, the 15 RO was in there also with us but he was not involved 16 in the conversation.
17 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
18 MR. PFEFFER: And at first Van -- I think 19 Van tried to lead me to believe that he knew what was 20 going on.
21 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
22 MR. PFEFFER: But I think in the follow up 23 question, it was obvious to me that he did know what 24 was going on.
25 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: And what was the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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32 1 follow up question again?
2 MR. PFEFFER: Did he tell you what he was 3 going to do before he went out there?
4 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: And, again, how did 5 Van respond?
6 MR. PFEFFER: It was pretty much the end 7 of the conversation at that point. I don't remember 8 what his response was. It was -- it was not an 9 affirmative answer. It was either evasive or a non-10 answer.
11 And I don't know what your to her 12 testimony is from those other two, but --
13 sPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: what other two?
14 MR. PFEFFER: From Van and `
15 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
16 MR. PFEFFER: Or Bill white. But -- and 17 I tell you what. I can't give you verbatim 18 conversations of what took place, but I know what I 19 felt and I know that I'm pretty certain that there was 20 a lack of communication betwee. and Van 21 Ford.
22 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.
23 MR. PFEFFER: And the control room crew.
24 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right. Are you 25 talking about all the conversations which you NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
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33 1 described or just the one between you and Van Ford 2 right now?
3 MR. PFEFFER: The one between Van Ford and 4 myself.
5 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. All right.
6 MR. PFEFFER: And I know, it's a bad 7 situation, but --
8 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes. It is. But 9 you know, if something happened, it needs to be 10 corrected by somebody, whether it's the Commission or 11 the licensee.
12 MR. PFEFFER: I think that part of the 13 thing that took place afterwards was that & he'd 14 come around and speak to the crews.
15 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
16 MR. PFEFFER: And not really to fess up to 17 something that went wrong, but to explain why he 18 decided to do what he did. And I don't think any of 19 that had any discussion about whether the control room 20 crew knew of didn't know. I think he was trying to 21 justify the fact that by closing the valve the 22 situation would be eliminated.
23 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
24 MR. PFEFFER: And that it was a management 25 decision that was made. He took responsibility for it NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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34 1 and --
2 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Let me ask you 3 this.
4 At any point did you confront 5 whether he told Van Ford that he was going to go close 6 the valve or not? Did you have a similar discussion 7 with like you had with Van ford?
8 MR. PFEFFER: No.
9 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right. Are you 10 clear that when the discussion ensued about the 11 decision to shut down the plant tha 12 interceded and said, hold on. I'm going to go check 13 something. Are you clear that that happened?
14 MR. PFEFFER: There was a definite hold on 15 the order to shut down.
16 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
17 MR. PFEFFER: There was a brief that took 18 place and typically the brief takes place and then the 19 order is given. There was an interruption at that 20 pont for * ) to go out in the field and address 21 something.
22 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
23 MR. PFEFFER: And I don't know what that 24 was.
25 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
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35 1 MR. PFEFFER: Only after the fact did I 2 know what it was.
3 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right. But did Van 4 know -- did Van Ford direct the control room staff, 5 we're going to hold right where we're at?
6 MR. PFEFFER: Bill white did.
7 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. All right.
8 And did the crew hold at that point?
9 MR. PFEFFER: Yes. They were just sitting 10 there waiting for the directions.
11 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. Now, I'm 12 just going to -- I know there is -- from my 13 understanding there is an element of the unionized 14 workforce that doesn't think highly of 15 for other issues. I don't really need to go into 16 those, but I know that there's that feeling out there 17 about him. But this is very important what you and I 18 are talking about. And you're testifying under oath.
19 You've been sworn in.
20 MR. PFEFFER: Right.
21 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: What you're telling 22 me is the absolute truth as you recall it. Is that 23 true?
24 MR. PFEFFER: As I recall it. Yes.
25 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
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36 1 MR. PFEFFER: And I can tell you that I 2 know that there is animosity there between the union 3 and
- 4 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
5 MR. PFEFFER: But
- and I have been 6 friends since we started to work here. And we've car 7 pooled together over various times.
8 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
9 MR. PFEFFER: And I still consider us to 10 be on friendly terms.
11 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
12 MR. PFEFFER: This is nothing -- this is 13 not my concern about individual behavior. It's my 14 concern about how we operate as an organization and 15 the way we reverted back to negative behavior. And it 16 upsets me that we would do that.
17 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
18 MR. PFEFFER: When we've been trained 19 differently.
20 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right. After the 21 incident happened, at any point after that, did you 22 discuss this with other than what you've 23 already described to me? You said, sometimes you car 24 pooled with him.
25 MR. PFEFFER: Well, that was back before we NEAL R.GROSS C COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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37 1 were licensed.
2 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right. Okay.
3 MR. PFEFFER: I don't think we discussed 4 it too much other than that he was going to come and 5 address each shift.
6 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.
7 MR. PFEFFER: And I don't think we had too 8 much more conversation about it.
9 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.
10 MR. PFEFFER: It was kind of like the 11 damage was done. Let's put it behind us.
12 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. We've talked 13 a little bit about your discussion with Tom lake 14 surrounding this issue. I got to ask you flat out.
15 Did you tell Tom Lake what you told me 16 here today specifically that you had that discussion, 17 first of all that that was your impression based on 18 what you saw Bill White's reaction, that Bill White 19 didn't know that this was going on?
20 MR. PFEFFER: No.
21 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Why?
22 MR. PFEFFER: I think we didn't get into 23 that much detail. He didn't ask those types of 24 questions. He wondered what my concern was and I told 25 him that it was -- it was the behavior displayed.
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38 1 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
2 MR. PFEFFER: And the fact that those 3 things happened and could have been handled 4 differently. And the fact that I thought control and 5 command was -- had been given up so to speak.
6 And I don't think he asked me that many 7 details about it.
8 - SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Did you share with 9 him the follow up discussion you had with Van Ford 10 where you confronted Van Ford with the question, did 11 you know that w)was going to go close the valve?
12 Did you share that with Tom lake?
13 MR. PFEFFER: No. I didn't.
14 I can tell you -- I can tell you one other 15 thing though that after the fact, because I asked him 16 about having a safety person there with him when he 17 was --
18 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Asked who?
19 MR. PFEFFER: I asked.
20 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
21 MR. PFEFFER: -- about having a safety 22 person and he said that he had stopped at the work 23 control center just outside of the control room and 24 asked Bob Corgi to go with him --
25 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right. NO-lac.
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39 1 MR. PFEFFER: -- to be his safety person.
2 I guess Bob Corgi was down there with him and I think 3 just as an observer, I don't think he helped him 4 manipulate the valve at all --
5 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
6 MR. PFEFFER: -- but I think he was down 7 there as a safety person.
8 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: What does that 9 mean? Him doing that, what does that tell you? I'm 10 trying to have you think like maybe what is 11 thinking. But what does that mean to you because 12 did that?
13 MR. PFEFFER: Well, I can tell you part of 14 the reason I asked him if he was going to anything for 15 damage control is the perception fed back to me from 16 the equipment operators, the field operators was --
17 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
18 MR. PFEFFER: -- he got -- he picked up 19 Bob Corgi on the way down there as much to be a look 20 out as he did to be a safety man.
21 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Lookout meaning 22 what?
23 MR. PFEFFER: So, that nobody would see 24 him up there manipulating the valve, because there's 25 a -- and this is where we get back to the union NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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40 1 management thing.
2 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
3 MR. PFEFFER: That the union is supposed 4 to operate the plant and the management is supposed to 5 direct the union to it so there's, you know, there's 6 -- anytime a supervisor manipulates a piece of 7 equipment, it should be assisting a union person 8 rather than instead of a union person.
9 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
10 MR. PFEFFER: That didn't happen, so the 11 perception of the equipment operators was that he was 12 -- he had Bob standing there as a look out so he they 13 wouldn't get caught -- closing the value.
14 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
15 MR. PFEFFER: I don't know if that's true 16 or not.
17 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right. That's 18 okay. But I appreciate you sharing that with me.
19 MR. PFEFFER: It's just some perception.
20 It some of things that came back to me and that's the 21 only reason that I knew Corgi was there because, you 22 know, I asked him if he had -- you didn't provide for 23 any safety person and he said Corgi was there.
24 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
25 How long did the interview with tom Lake NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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41.
1 last approximately? Do you recall?
2 MR. PFEFFER: I know I talked to him for 3 at 45 minutes.
4 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
5 MR. PFEFFER: And we talked about other 6 things too besides that.
7 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
8 MR. PFEFFER: Some other things that had 9 taken place.
10 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: At any point during 11 the discussion, did you make a statement to Mr. Lake 12 that Van Ford knew wha was going to do, I 13 meaning to go to close the valve? Did you tell Tom 14 Lake that?
15 ER. PFEFFER: I don't know that I did.
16 No.
17 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: I'm asking. I 18 mean, why --
19 MR. PFEFFER: No.
20 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Well, because I'm 21 asking. If you did tell him that then fine, but it 22 conflicts with what you've told me here today. It 23 would conflict.
24 Do you agree?
25 MR. PFEFFER: Well, certainly.
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42 1 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.
2 Did you tell him that? Did you tell Tom 3 Lake that the DOS knew what was going to 164 4 do?
5 MR. PFEFFER: I don't think that I did 6 because I didn't. I never did know that Van knew what 7 was going to happen. So, if I said that, I don't know 8 if that was taken out of context or what.
9 I may have said that Van told me he knew 10 what was going to happen.
11 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
12 MR. PFEFFER: But I don't think I told him 13 that Van knew.
14 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right. Because you 15 believe he didn't know?
16 MR. PFEFFER: Yes. And certainly by the 17 time that Tom Lake interviewed me, that you know, by 18 the end of that night.
19 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: He interviewed you 20 on October 11th?
21 MR. PFEFFER: Right. So, it's within 22 three weeks.
23 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
24 MR. PFEFFER: Three or four weeks.
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43 1 Van told me that he knew wha was going to do. '2 2 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Because there's a 3 note written here and this is between you and I.
4 OS knew, but rest of organization didn't, 5 meaning the shift.
6 MR. PFEFFER: Don't know that. That was 7 a comment that I made to --
8 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: I'm reading raw 9 notes. That's all I'm reading is raw notes here.
10 MR. PFEFFER: Yes.
11 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Did you tell him 12 that specifically what I just read, that Van Ford knew 13 but the rest of the shift did not know?
14 MR. PFEFFER: I don't think I did. I may 15 have told him that Van told me he knew, but hadn't 16 informed the rest of the shift.
17 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
18 MR. PFEFFER: And if I go back on what I 19 heard after the fact --
20 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
21 MR. PFEFFER: -- Van did show up as the 22 valve was closed. Van did go out in the field and I 23 think that he ended up out in the field withQ&
24 s had finished closing the valve and 25 then they came back to the control room.
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44 1 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
2 MR. PFEFFER: I didn't see that happen and 3 I don't know that that happened. That's just hearsay 4 on my part.
5 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right. Well, this 6 note, this bullet in these notes could be read that 7 when went out to the valve, Van Ford knew 8 what i was going to do. It could be read that way.
9 Would you have told Tom that what I just 10 said?
11 MR. PFEFFER: No.
12 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: You're positive of 13 that?
14 MR. PFEFFER: Yes.
15 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Swear to God and 16 the Holy Bible. I've sworn you in. This is 17 important.
18 MR. PFEFFER: I know, this is the whole 19 crux of the matter here.
20 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes. It is.
21 MR. PFEFFER: There's so much information 22 that happened that night and there's so much backfill 23 -- I'm sorry, that was the phone ringing.
24 Go ahead.
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45 1 down to the fact that in my -- to my best knowledge, 2 Van found out that that valve was going to be closed 3 when he walked out in the field to see what was 4 doing and he sa coming down from the ladder or 5 in the vicinity of the ladder and the valve was 6 closed. And that's when Van found out.
7 And I don't know what the rest of your 8 testimony is from other participants, but that's my 9 conclusion from all the conversations that took place 10 that that's when Van discovered the valve was going 11 closed when he actually saw it.
12 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Is your conclusion 13 based mostly on your follow up discussion with Van 14 Ford where you specifically were asking bh questions 15 if he knew?
16 MR. PFEFFER: I asked him if he knew and 17 he did not give me an affirmative answer that he knew.
18 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
19 MR. PFEFFER: And my assumption from that 20 is that he found out when he went out in the field.
21 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
22 MR. PFEFFER: And at this point it's 23 damage control.
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46 1 a lot of things. He's worried about his own rear end.
2 And he should be. But mistakes are made.
3 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right. And they 4 are made.
5 MR. PFEFFER: Mistakes are made.
6 Let's take a short break. It's 11:21.
7 (Whereupon, off the record from 11:21 to 8 11:29 a.m.)
9 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: We're back on the 10 record after a short break. It's about 11;29. And 11 you mentioned something. You kind of rehashed the 12 conversation you had with Van.
13 Why don't you g ahead and repeat what you 14 just said. I mean, we were talking about your 15 ability.
16 MR. PFEFFER: Well, I think back to that 17 night and I think back to my ability to -- to witness 18 the conversation -- and I can't really. I know that 19 my impression was based on the fact that I did ask Van 20 if he knew that that was happening, that the valve was 21 being closed down in the field. And he kind of 22 alluded to, yes. He did. But it wasn't -- it wasn't 23 a real strong affirmative. And I did pursue it a 24 little bit further and he was a little bit evasive.
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47 1 matter that much because the valve is closed and it's 2 resolved almost. Just leave it at that. But it 3 wasn't a real conversation we had. It was just a 4 little bit of, you know, interplay back and forth.
5 But what I took from that is, that he was 6 -- he was not aware.
7 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
8 MR. PFEFFER: And, I guess, if, you know, 9 if you want to have definite proof of that, then you 10 know, I can make that testimony but I can't back it up 11 with actual words. I know what I saw and I know the 12 reactions. But I can't tell you the exact 13 conversation that took place.
14 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Between you and 15 Van?
16 MR. PFEFFER: Between Van and myself.
17 Right.
18 I know that he -- he tried to explain that 19 he did know, but he didn't explain very well.
20 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: do you know if 21 there were others who were working that night who had 22 similar discussion with Van Ford?
23 The question is, do you know of any others 24 who had similar discussions?
25 MR. PFEFFER: Well, I -- I would hope that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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48 1 the control room crew and unit 2 would have had that 2 conversation and I would think that Bill white would 3 have.
4 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
5 MR. PFEFFER: But the operator that was in 6 the unit 1 control room with me, I don't think was 7 that concerned about it. Didn't care that much about 8 it.
9 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
10 MR. PFEFFER: And I think it -- the main 11 focus that night was the fact that the situation was 12 under control and there was no transient.
13 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
14 MR. PPEFFER: And I think that in the 15 relief of everything, nobody really cared that much.
16 And sincerely the only reason I cared was because, you 17 know, I had these safety concerns about we didn't 18 address it correctly from a safety perspective. And 19 that's why I kind of dug into it a little bit.
20 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: With Van Ford?
21 MR. PFEFFER: With Van and also withlX 22 Then I followed up with about 23 what he was going to do for damage control.
24 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. It's a 25 little bit after 11:30. Is there something more you NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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49 1 want to add, Mr. Pfeffer? Is there something else you 2 could offer to -- that you feel might be important to 3 what happened that night and what happened?
4 MR. PFEFFER: I think the follow up of the 5 situation because -- because of some of the questions 6 that I asked and some of the reaction of the field 7 operators, the organization, the operations 8 organization decided that they had to offer some type 9 of explanation about what happened that evening.
10 so, did prepare himself to 11 make presentation to all five of the shifts and he 12 took that opportunity to explain to the shifts what he 13 had done.
14 I don't think that any of those 15 conversations or presentations adequately addressed 16 the safety concerns. Certainly, there was no apology 17 for acting inappropriately. There was just an 18 explanation of why he did based on the facts that he 19 had before him. Didn't delve into who knew what at 20 what time as far as --
21 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: I was going to ask 22 you that.
23 MR. PFEFFER: -- the command and control 24 issues were never a part of the presentation that was 25 made to the shifts. But he did take the time to the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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50 1 best of his ability try to do some damage control and 2 say, you know, I did it because, if it was unsafe, I 3 didn't feel I should put anybody else in jeopardy.
4 And based on the information that I had, 5 the sPECIAL information with the -- from the valve 6 engineer and also the fact that I saw that the 7 insulation had moved and I could tell where the leak 8 was coming from, at that point it seemed like it would 9 be okay for me to do it, to close the valve.
10 There was no other follow up conversation 11 about the other issue of control and command. But he 12 did try to address some things for damage control as 13 far as the attitudes of the equipment operators and 14 safety.
15 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: How would you 16 describe your relationship wit today?
17 MR. PFEFFER: I think it became chilled 18 over this because I questioned him and I pursued it a 19 little bit further than anybody had wanted to have it 20 pursued. I think a little bit chilled over that, but 21 I mean we still talk and quite frankly, I thought this 22 issue was done and over with. I didn't carry forward 23 any other concerns other than what I had talked to Van 24 and bout. And the only reason I talked 25 to Tom Lake is because he felt that we should air some NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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51 1 of these things out because our shift was very 2 concerned about it. And so he came and talked to 3 several of us about that issue and other issues. Some 4 of the issues had to do with the union relationship 5 also.
6 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
7 MR. PFEFFER: And so he thought it should 8 be aired out and I felt that the conversation with Tom 9 Lake was taken back to management and I thought 10 everything was addressed appropriately. I'm very 11 surprised to be here today to give testimony. I 12 really am. I felt that --
13 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Was it just because 14 the licensee believes it's reviewed and resolved 15 something doesn't mean that in the Commission's eyes 16 it's been properly resolved.
17 MR. PFEFFER: Right.
18 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: And we have certain 19 things, regulations, rules, license conditions, things 20 like that that the Commission is responsible for in 21 insuring that the licensees follow. And my 22 investigation is going to determine whether in fact 23 that happened here or not.
24 I'm going to ask you something today. I'm 25 going to ask you to not share what you discussed with NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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52 1 me today. I can't force you to do that, to comply 2 with my request, but I ask that you not for two 3 reasons.
4 One is I have more work to do. And rather 5 than get people's their own impressions, memories, 6 testimony and maybe not thinking they remember 7 something because somebody told them that, oh, yes, 8 this is what I know. This is what I said. So, I'd 9 ask that you not do that again. I can't force you, 10 but I'd ask you not to do that for the integrity of 11 the investigation.
12 MR. PFEFFER: I'm not on a crusade so I 13 have no problem keeping it to myself. I wish I --
14 that this had all been kept to myself. But I mean, I 15 think it is important.
16 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes. Absolutely.
17 MR. PFEFFER: I'm definitely not on a 18 crusade to --
19 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: To nail *l 20 21 MR. PFEFFER: Yes.
22 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: You're not?
23 MR. PFEFFER: I thought it had all been 24 settled. I really had.
25 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. Is there NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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53 1 anything more you want to add?
2 MR. PFEFFER: No.
3 SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: It's almost 11:20.
4 I appreciate your time and your testimony. This 5 interview is concluded.
6 Thanks.
7 (Whereupon the above matter was concluded 8 at 11:20 a.m.)
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