ML061460300
| ML061460300 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Salem, Hope Creek  |
| Issue date: | 01/29/2004 |
| From: | NRC/OI |
| To: | |
| References | |
| 1-2003-051F, FOIA/PA-2005-0194 | |
| Download: ML061460300 (89) | |
Text
1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 33
....+
4 OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS 5
INTERVIEW 6 -
x 7
IN THE MATTER OF:
Docket No.
8 INTERVIEW OF:
1-2003-051F 9
10 (CLOSED) ii X
12 Thursday, January 29, 2004 13 14 Telephonic Conference S15 The above-entitled interview was conducted 16 at 1:15 p.m.
17 BEFORE:
18 Special Agent EILEEN NEFF 19 20 ALSO PRESENT:
21 Sr. Project Engineer SCOTT BARBER 22 23 24 formation in this record was deleted Saccordance.with the Freedom of Information 25 t, exemptions 12C1.
IIA-NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
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9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 1:15 p.m.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
On the record.
Today' s date is January 29, 2004.
The time is approximately 1:15 p.m.
Speaking is Special Agent Eileen
- Neff, US NRC Region 1,
Office of Investigations.
Also present is Sr. Project Engineer Scott Barber from Region 1 DRP.
It's a telephonic interview in that a telephone call was placed to area code
-31 ý!!N This is a follow-up interview that was ended on January 27, 2004 at approximately 3:40 p.m.
This is the planned follow-up for that interview.
What we wanted to do is you had indicated just before we went on the record, that you had some information to add to the recirc pump issue that we discussed the other day indicating that a level 1 had been written on that.
What I'd like to do is just describe what you know about that at this point.
Thank you.
A level I notification with a root cause was initiated.
The team leader was jj(phonetic).
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And the time frame?
j It was in or about the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 time of the turbine bypass valve and the seal failure during that forced outage.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
In March 2003.
That's correct.
The recommendation from that, from the level 1 and the team, was that the recirc pump be gone internal to being resolved.
This was an Engineering/Flow Serve/Maintenance.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
All had input to the level 1 and the root cause?
j7 Yes, ma'am.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Same individual from Flow Serve who was involved before you had indicated that you showed a report to.
I believe so, but I don't remember.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Engineering, Flow Serve and Maintenance.
That's correct.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
is engineering.
7 That's correct.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Who from maintenance then?
- '-u-.
I had, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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/4!
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1 (PH).
2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
One of the three 3
mechanics from Service.
4
- Yes, what better 5
individual to get involved in it than the guys that 6
have to work on it.
7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
What about the 8
response to the recommendation then?
9
,Organizationally there 10 are two responses.
One was a caveat that was for I 11 don't I asked a question and I did not understand 12 why - was if the money was budgeted.
I don't know why 13 you would ever put that into a level 1. If the money 14 was budgeted or approved.
15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
To go internally.
16 f
Right.
17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
What was the time 18 frame that they recommended for that?
19 The next outage was their 20 recommendation.
So it would be this up and coming 21 refill outage.
22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And you're concerned 23 about him putting that in there about the budget.
24 e L Mo I asked the question.
25 How can you address a reactor recirc safety issue NEAL R. GROSS-0 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 which could ultimately be a reactivity or a LOCA issue 2
and tie that to a budget.
The response I got from 3
numerous people, to include was that it 4
was a business decision based around the business.
If 5
there was an imminent failure, we'd go inside.
But we 6
still haven't make that determination.
7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
That there wasn't an 8
imminent failure.
9 Right.
10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
So they still saw it 11 as a business decision at this point, not a safety 12 decision.
13
' Correct, but you have a 14 level 1 root cause that says "go internal and fix the 15 pump" by engineering, maintenance and an outside 16 agency which it doesn't make sense.
17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Is this a unique 18 situation for you? Have you seen a level 1 root cause 19 with that type of recommendation let's say on i
20
.different piece of equipment be handled that way?
21 Yes.
Typically we keep 22 the budget separate from consideration of the 23 equipment.
What is the issue with the equipment?
Why 24 is there an issue with the equipment?
What can we do 25 to resolve that issue with the equipment?
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
So you are saying 2
typically the budget wouldn't have been the 3
consideration.
Is this the first time that you've 4
seen that with the circ pump?
5 Not a public service.
6 Other utilities I have not seen that.
7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
What other 8
situations have you seen at public service?
How did 9
they handle that?
10
- 2)
Safety related service 11 water valves I initiated a level 1 for Salem service 12 water valves for the CFSU system.
We were going 6 and 13 a half and 7 days into a 7 day LCO trying to perform 14 maintenance on them.
It was tough because we didn't 15 have the right valve material types.
We had no 16 spares.
So they pulled the old valve out and install 17 a new one with minimal system outage.
18 Instead we pulled out.
The valve would be 19 totally eroded and corroded so you would have to 20 machine out the valve.
You'd have to weld build them 21 all up.
You would have to remachine and go through 22 and fix the internals.
So I wrote a level 1 on the 23 valve and told the organization to go buy the right 24 valves, upgrade the material type, get a spare so you 25 could install it and then put the old one on the NEAL R. GROSS*
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1 bench.
2 Now you still had potential to have to 3
machine and weld on the flanges within the system, but 4
it immensely reduced the system outage in our safety 5
related components.
There were times when we went 7 6
days on a 7 day trying to do the maintenance.
This 7
was just everybody basically bought into it.
It was 8
the way to go do business.
That's not the right way 9
to go do business.
10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
When you wrote this 11 level 1 what time frame is that?
12 1 want to say it was in 13 first three or five months I was there.
14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
So by mid to late is 2001?
16 jes.was 17 on that team.
The conversation from storeroom people 18 and from some outside team members is "Do you know how 19 much money that costs?"
I said "I don't care how much 20 money it costs.
It needs to be done and done right.
21 We need these and if we do it right we actually save 22 more money."
"Well, do you know how much money that's 23 involved in our inventory and what we're going to pay 24 in taxes."
That's not the right way to think.
25 First of all, we're challenging a plant.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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If I have a redundant system, it goes up because I'm 2
already in the 7 day work.
I'll shut the plant down.
3 We're already down powered on one occasion because we 4
went past the 7 days so we had to enter the action 5
state.
6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
7 That' s the nature and 8
that's the mindset that "How much money does it cost?"
9 That part is you're getting it really across the 10 board.
11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
When you said you 12 wrote the level 1, did you argue with your 13 organization to get the valve spare?
Did that happen?
14 Yes, ma'am.
So we were 15 going along from six and a half days to seven days on 16 service water valves down to 14, 16, 18 hours2.083333e-4 days <br />0.005 hours <br />2.97619e-5 weeks <br />6.849e-6 months <br />.
So we 17 were in out of the LCOs in a Very reasonable amount of 18 time.
We reduced the cost of overtime so there really 19 was a monetary savings with that and a little bit of 20 a quality of life for our people and we become 21 predictable.
Through that level 1, I made them 22 evaluate all the service water valves which included 23 the Salem diesel.
Those were the 39s to get spares 24 because we were pushing those right to the max as 25 well.
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
1 SR.
PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER:
These are 2
examples where things went well, right?
I mean that's 3
what you're describing.
4 It was a huge struggle, 5
but yes.
6 SR.
PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER:
I mean the 7
final outcome was good in your view.
8
- Yes, the final outcome 9
was good even though it cost a little bit.
10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And the struggle, 11 where was that? At what level was that coming?*
12 13 No.
It was coming from 14 the superintendent. and manager level, but it was 15 organizational.
So for the most part I involved the 16 valve team supervisor because it was the right thing 17 to do and as soon I sat and gave my reasons, he fully 18 agreed.
19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And then that made 20 your point more effective with where the resistance 21 was coming from initially.
22 Yes, but as a matter of 23 fact, there wasbig resistance from the stores people.
24 SPECIAL AGENTNEFF:
Stores people, whatIs 25 that?
NEAL R. GROSSAl COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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/ The storeroom where they 2
order our bricks etc.
3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Warehousing and that 4
would be the issue of the cost.
5 Yes.
6 SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER:
That's good 7
feedback and that's good to have a point of reference 8
where the process worked well.
I'd like to move back 9
to the recirc pump for a moment.
One of the things 10 that you talked about was the difference of opinion 11 that it sounded like maintenance had wit 12 and possibly others in the organization.
13 In that instance, it sounds like there 14 wasn't necessarily a disagreement about the nature of 15 the problem.
Maybe the exact causes that were 16 identified but there was clearly a recognition that 17 there was something that was left unresolved with the 16 pump.
Is that correct?
19 Right.
20 SR.
PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER:
And you 21 understood that and you think understood 22 that.
Is that right?
23 7Yes,, sir.
24 SR.
PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER:
So then 25 there was as you described it a level 1 done by<
NEAL R. GROSS 7
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,as a team leader.
His team concludes that "Yes, 2
there's a need to go internal to the pump and repair 3
the deficient conditions."
Is that correct?
4 Correct.
5 SR.
PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER:
Now if 6
engineering were to come back and say "Okay, we.all 7
acknowledge that it's the right thing to do" so now 8
the question comes "What's the appropriate timing to 9
do that?"
10 Right.
11 SR.
PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER:
If 12 engineering decides and it comes through and says 13 "Well we think" and they provide some rationale that 14 we could do that from the next outage or the outage is after that and it's based on some either information 16 that they've gathered from previous failures or 17 previous problems with reactor recirculation pumps or 18 they have other sources of information so that there 19 is a reasonable basis for what they are suggesting.
20 Would that be sufficient or adequate to say "Well, 21 maybe it is okay to not do the repair in the next 22 outage.
Maybe it could wait as long as it gets done."
23 Because it sounds like the emphasis that I'm getting 24 from you is that it needs to get done.
25
_7.Thatls correct.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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SR.
PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER:
I know 2
you're concerned that something could happen prior to 3
the repair activity. But if they could guarantee that 4
nothing would happen until the repair occurred, would 5
that be an acceptable condition?
6
- Yes, but let's think 7
about this.
They're all through with 1 and they did 8
a good job with it.
But what do you think you'd amend 9
it or add to it that it says "Given these set of 10 circumstances maybe I want to revise it so I'd leave 11 today.
Given this set of circumstances and this 12 mindset, additional information, whatever it might be 13 and I'm going to add to it, amend to it, revise it so 14 I have a plan going forward."
But instead I have a 15 root 1 out there, that says "These are my corrective 16 actions.
These are my recommendations for my 17 corrective actions."
They didn't do anything with 18 that.
19 The whole point is that we k1-w n
20 condition.
It's adverse.
Do we know the extent of 21 the condition without going internal?
No.
Are we 22 aware of it that there is a condition out there that 23 needs to be addressed?
The answer, is yes.
I even 24 took the time and the financial impact to go through 25 a root 1. The evaluation of a root 1 says these are NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
1 my corrective actions recommendations, but yet we're 2
not following them.
3 So what good is my corrective action 4
program?
What faith do I have in it?
Why couldn't I 5
at least take the time to go through and readdress it 6
so that the rest of the world as well as the internal 7
organization reads it? There's a plan.
There's some 8
method to my madness.
And I get the right buy-in?
9 There isn't any of that.
10 SR.
PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER:
How do you 11 know that?
12 It wasn't revised.
13 SR.
PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER:
It wasn't 14 revised in what time frame?
Do you mean from March to 15 when you left in November?
16 That' s correct.
17 SR.
PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER:
Was there 18 some ongoing dialogue with someone in management that 19 you knew that was that case?
20 I made the statement 21 then.
22 SR.
PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER:
I'm just 23 trying to understand why you have that perspective.
24
_A,*
Because I read it in 25 detail.
I discussed it withM 9M.
with§ J NEAL R. GROSS
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1 even made the statement then do I have ineffective 2
corrective actions because the root 1 says I want to 3
go do this.
If I'm not, do I
have ineffective 4
corrective actions that I've shown in the past? Well, 5
no.
It's a business decision.
6
- Well, it doesn't say that.
It says you 7
need to go fix it.
So change it so it reflects what 8
we're really going to go do and make sure we get the 9
right buy-in and the right evaluation on it or go 10 folloW it.
You can't have it both ways.
That's how 11 you tear an organization apart.
12 SR.
PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER:
All right.
13 Let me make sure I understand your point.
I think I 14 do but I want to confirm it.
It sounds like when 15 you're describing it's the level 1
root cause 16 identified the root cause and mentioned different 17 aspects about the problem.
It specifically talked 18 about this problem with the auxiliary impeller 19 contacting the inside of the stuffing box and it may 20 have been due to excessive clearance in the lower 21 bushing that may have been caused by shaft bow or some 22 other condition that needed to be researched.
23 Based on that, there was corrective action 24 that was recommended in the notification that the 25 specific maintenance activity be planned to go NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
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9 10 11 12 13 14 is 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 internal in the pump and basically do a thorough investigation to identify the nature of the problem and correct it during the next refueling outage.
Your understanding in the way that issue as left coming out of the outage was that it was left that way, but there was never any intention to go and do a repair in the future.
Is that correct?
That's correct.
SR. PROJECT ENGINEER BARBER:
But was it you understanding that it wasn't the company's intention to do a repair at any time in the future or that it may not happen in the following outage or the one after that or the one after that.
It was just kind of open ended.
It was open ended as the example you gave with the justification that it might be cheaper just to go keep replacing recirc seals versus going internal to the pump.
So if we evaluate it's cheaper just to replace the recirc seals, take a mid-cycle outage to replace the seals, try to make it to the end of the outage to replace the seal, then it's a business decision then to go do that.
I called the flag on that and I asked, number one, "Well what about the safety of our work force?"
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Side A, it's NEAL R. GROSS7 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 approximately 1:33 p.m.
2 Okay.
Please continue.
3 If you could just back up about two lines, 4
I think I would have lost that much information.
I'm 5
sorry.
6
- ,Ui When they told me is was 7
a business strictly a business decision.
- Well, 8
then I have to go internal to a pump, because it was 9
probably a lot cheaper just to go and start and keep 10 replacing recirc seals and taking a mid-cycle outage.
11 I asked the question, or gave more of a statement, did 12 you take any consideration into the exposure, the dose 13 exposure of workers?
We're talking NAR and we're 14 talking safety, RAD
- safety, nuclear as well as 15 equipment safety.
Did any of this get incorporated in 16 the level one then?
How can I take that into account 17 and say it's strictly a business decision without 18 evaluating it and looking at some holistic point of 19 view versus just a strictly a business point of view.
20 MR.
BARBER:
I'm not sure I understand 21 your point.
Were you saying if they had to take a 22 forced outage that the exposure to the workers was 23 have been greater than if they had planned to do a 24 refueling outage?
Is that your point?
25 No.
It's multiple NEAL R. GROSS if "7
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1 exposures.
2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
With the recirc pump 3
seal being replace each time over time.
4 MR.
BARBER:
Oh, okay.
5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
So is it indefinitely 6
that they planned to do the replacement or did you get 7
the idea that the --
it would be scheduled and just 8
not in this next upcoming outage?
What was 9
communicated to you?
10 That that besides the 11 route one, we would put an additional troubleshooting 12 planning of it.
And then evaluate it after the 13 additional troubleshooting plan.
And I
asked the 14 question why are we doing an additional 15 troubleshooting plan when we've already got a route 16 one that tells us what to do? All right. And where in 17 there do we take into account -- well, forced outages 18 or planned outages and the safety of the people?
19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Who did you ask that 20 of, 21 22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
23OW 1
24 Right.
25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
What was the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 response?
JJ It's a business decision.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
Anything further on that?
MR.
BARBER:
I don't think so.
Does that make sense?
MR.
BARBER:
Yes, it does.
The thing that I'm guess I'm taking away from this is it was kind of left as quote "an unresolved conflict."
In other words, they wrote something in the notification that they may or may not do and that they don't feel bound to do based on the discussion they had with you.
Is that right?
MR.
BARBER:
I mean because the Navy report recommended, you know, going internal of the pump during the next outage.
And it sounds like that management had a different view, but they didn't feell the need to revise the notification to correct it to what their view was.
In my world I'll call that in effect. of. corrective actions because I'm answering a problem associated with a plan on a safety related component or also --
I'll also say that in and of itself not to correcting it or not fixing it or not NEAL R. GROSS
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addressing it is going to add to my human performance 2
and my safety culture.
So if I don't have to answer 3
it and if everybody in this world --
and pardon me, 4
but to include the NRC if we're going to accept that.
5 So that when the people there read it and understand 6
it and say, well, see they said they were going to go 7
do this, but nobody wants to follow up again.
We're 8
not going to make a culture change.
And we're 9
contributing to the chilled environment.
Because why 10 did I contribute all that time?
Why did I send a 11 mechanic in the work force to sit in?
Why was there 12 legitimate questions asked, answered in a level one on 13 route cause team to include an outside vendor and then 14 we're going to call it a business decision and then 15 say, well it might be cheaper just to go replace the 16 seal.
We'll revise it so at least you've got a 17 written plan and it matches.
But you can't have it 18 both ways.
19 So I wonder why that people say it doesn't 20 matter what we do; nobody's going to go listen.
And 21 they don't care.
22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And this is what you 23 say exhibits that mindset on site?
25
-SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Do you have anything NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
1 else that goes along with that, any other 2
situations that come to mind on handling it this way?
3 Diesels.
4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Diesels on what side?
5 Hope Creek.
Actually 6
Hope Creek and Salem.
7 One of the,-
the Salem turbo charger, I 8
forgot which diesel it was --
it was unit one.
- Was, 9
if you
- will, failed the turbo
- charger, 10 catastrophically failed presumably.
To make a long 11 story short, it was because we didn't do a PM.
We 12 hadn't done the PMS.
But if I look at the Salem 13 turbocharger, if I look at the Salem charger pumps, 14 the gear reducers, hey, it costs money to go send the 15 parts out and pieces out.
It also cost money to go do 16 the PMs.
And nobody's looking at them anyways.
And 17 it was easier to go defer them.
18 There was two people there in those 19 positions for manager and superintendent for a couple 20 of three years that did nothing but sign deferrals.
21 You know, a lot of finger pointing, but no work got 22 done and no spare turbos got sent out to get 23 refurbished,ý to go get checked.
24 MR.
BARBER:
Was that something that was 25 part of the PM program?
It was very clearly scheduled NEAL R. GROSS
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-12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 or part of the plan?
And I'm not sure how your PM program, you know, was implemented.
But did it come out in the schedule and then someone had to actually actively defer it or could they just ignore it, or how did that work?.
AI was there almost three years and I hadn't totally figured out how the whole PM program worked either, as scary as that is.
But I can tell you this, that there was active PMs and the PMs were deferred.
MR.
BARBER:
And who was allowed to do that?
I mean, was that something that --
Engineering and maintenance.
MR. BARBER:
Okay.
My question's a little bit more specific.
What I was trying to ask is, was it. a certain level of manager or a certain - -
you know, had certain authorization or certain rights that was the one that was all owed to defer it or could anybody do it?
4 1.7 M, I, INo, no.
Superintendent, manager could defer.
MR.
BARBER:
Okay.
Not anybody could do it within and I believe you had to get Ops or NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
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9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Engineering concurrence.
MR.
BARBER:
And was that the standard approach? I mean, was it if
-- well, what would be a reason for deferring something?
I mean, is there --
was that the normal way of doing business or was it only done on a case-by-case basis only in certain rare instances?
Well, I can't answer all your questions. I can tell you this, when I first got there the "PM deferrals, the stack of them was unbelievably huge.
I was not the --
at that time, a
But the PM deferrals were very significant. There was a huge. backlog of them.
The work and the schedules were there was a lot there was a pretty good sized backlog.
So what I saw and what I flavored was that it was a standard practice, but yet you didn't have the resources.
There were no (inaudible) it was just
-- the turbo charger is still sitting in the back room and we're going to have it sent out for refurbishment or a spare, speed increaser for the charging pump or, you know, hey I'm still waiting money to be approved.
Whatever the case was, and it was a litany of okay I'm NEAL R. GROSS Al )
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1 out of resources, I'm out of people.
We just can't 2
support it with all the collective maintenance..
3 PMs, by in large, were deferred and --
and 4
if you will, the equipment was neglected.
That has 5
seen a significant improvement, and what I'm alluding 6
to in this is telling you what the mindset was, and 7
part of it still is.
8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
When was the 9
improvement?
10 CM I didn't hear the whole 11 question.
12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Did'you say that that 13 was at one point but it has seen improvement in the PM 14 deferrals; at what point in time was the improvement?
15 About a year, a year --
16 about a
- year, year and a
half ago we as an 17 organization started kicking stronger on not deferring 18 that.
After the charging pump speed increaser, when 19 that catastrophically failed.
And the Salem turbo 20 charger on the Salem side safety related equipment 21 started getting more attention.
Did it get all it 22 needed?
No.
But it did start getting more.
And then 23
-the Hope Creek diesels, you know, no spare pumps, no- -
24 that started getting a little bit better.
But it was 25 a lot of work to go change that and write the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS t4 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 notifications and drive those changes.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
When you say that you got stronger, was that individually getting stronger or what do you attribute the strength to?
Maintenance and operations being more sensitive to the safety equipment.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:. At what level
) 2 I
j/ More the manager and then superintendent.
It wasn't in some areas it was weak, in some areas it was strong. You know, all that part is good.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
Anything further on this, Scott?
Okay.
Anything else?
MR.
BARBER:
Well, actually -- actually there was.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Go ahead.
MR. BARBER:
You had talked about problems with the Hope Creek diesels.
I think you mentioned --
I think you.started with Hope Creek and then you said and in Salem and you talked about the turbo charger.
And I think you made a mention not having enough spare pumps for the diesels.
And I don't know if that was applicable to Hope Creek or Salem.
But were there any other issues within the Hope Creek diesels that stand NEAL R. GROSS 7(1 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 out?
2 o Hope Creek diesels had 3
significant issues prior to me taking over as a 4
I'll give you some 5
examples.
6 There was significant amounts of oil 7
leaks, of jacket water leaks, exhaust leaks so that 8
the operators--
you couldn't.even get an operator 9
into the room without a SCAT air pack (phonetic),
10 things like this.
11 And the more we started digging into them, 12 the more I found that we had spare exhaust gaskets and 13 bellows and stuff,.but I'm finding out that they all 14 got sent back and sent out because there was too many 15 much money.
And whereas people didn't want to hold on 16 to them. So without directions from maintenance, you 17 know, parts that we had were gone.
Parts that we were 18 getting in were, if you call it, second class citizens 19 and it wasn't their problem that the parts were no 20 good and nobody wanted to --
it was a lot of push back 21 to get anybody to go follow up to that.
22 There was a main shaft oil filter on the 23 Hope Creek diesel that was --
the vendor had subbed 24 the seal manufacturer out.
So instead of him this 25 seal, oil seal, he sent someone else. Well, that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS
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1 somebody else, whoever made it, didn't really make it 2
out of the right material type so that when we 3
installed the new seal that we got, the seal failed.
4 It failed three times in a row.
When we started 5
asking the question of --
when did they revise the 6
- number, was it a material type change, was there 7
changed.
And engineering -- the diesel engineers, not 8
the procurement engineers started digging into it.
9 And we got the answer that, ah, well we sent it
- out, 10 we had it sub out, you know.
11 Well, why should we ask these questions; 12 did we change parts or did we have problems?
13 One of the supervisors called me again 14 today and said, gee, look at this.
We had a fuel oil 15 valve, check valve on the diesel, right.
The new 16 valve versus the old valve are two different piece.
17 One is significantly longer so we got to take the 18 brand new valve and instead of install our brand new 19 valve, we got to take a brand new valve apart, take 20 the parts out of it and try to install it into the old 21 style valve.
The parts matched, the body being longer 22 and some other things were problems.
23
- Bolts, two style bolts for the same 24 component, one machine versus one forged.
Two 25 different size heads.
Some of them too long.
You got NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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And fuel pumps.
Typically if you have a problem with a fuel pump, depending on the cylinders, if you got 20 cylinders then you got the potential for 20 problems.
But you could only get them to have, say, two or three on hand because they've taken all the other ones and said we haven't used them in years, and send them out without contacting anybody or getting --
getting maintenance by it.
MR. BARBER:
Do they have the authority, do the procurement people, the storage people have the authority to do that?
I mean-- isn't that normally--
I mean if something's assigned to maintenance's budget as, you know--
--- m:
Right.
MR. BARBER:
-- a frequently needed repair part of a PM part, even, you know --
- 3-But they-MR. BARBER:
I don't understand why they'd even --
why they'd even get into that because I would also think that the cost would be more nominal compared to something major, you know, like a --
some major pump or motor or something where there's a lot of cost tied up in one component?
Right.
Or in expediting t__
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1 fees and -- yes.
I never could get a straight answer.
2 And reading their procedures trying to sort that part 3
out, it wasn't clear.
The manager warehouse has a say 4
in the matter and maintenance is supposed to concur, 5
but there's no --
I could never find the link to how 6
we communicated that and gave the concurrence or the 7
denial.
8 MR. BARBER:
Was there something else that 9
was driving the desire or the need to send the parts 10 back?
I mean, was there some sort of cost savings 11 that was attributable to the procurement folks that-.-
12 Taxes.
13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Taxes you said?
14 Taxes.
The less parts 15 you have in stores in the warehouse, the less 16 you're taxed.
17 MR.
BARBER:
I mean, was this something 18 the company was pushing or is this --
19 Yes.
To reduce the 20 inventory.
21 MR.
BARBER:
But there was no what's 22 the word I'm looking for?
23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Exemption?
24 MR.
BARBER:
- Well, no.
I was actually 25 thinking there was no program.
There was nothing NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
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9 10 11 12 13 14 15 where someone else -- where a group of people sat down from ops maintenance engineering and say, you know, these are the critical spares we need, these are the critical parts; we're going to keep these and we'll get rid of everything else because we don't need it.
But then it's a whole list I mean,
- asP3aid, it's a holistic approach to what's needed and what's not needed.
So, hopefully, you keep all the right things, but at least it's a collective decision rather than having some procurement individual make the decision for you.
Is that kind of what happened?
Correct.
MR.
BARBER:
Okay.
So they made a
decision as what was important and what wasn't.
I mean--
16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 For everything I found, and what I could get information on, based on how much that part was, a bigger factor and we should get rid of it because it reduces our taxes by X amount.
Strictly business decision.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
That was where the weight of the decision was coming from, the fact that it was reduce taxing--
reduced taxes.
Reduce
- taxes, that's correct.
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1 MR. BARBER:
- You know, let me just ask a 2
specific question about this.
You know, one of the 3
things that you mentioned was the exhaust leaks from 4
the diesels, and that's been as you said a hard spot 5
with the operators because they had to wear sky 6
airpacks to go in the area and that you found out that 7
the gaskets for different exhaust pipe connections had 8
been sent back to, I guess the manufacturer or 9
wherever they warehouse, distribution center, wherever 10 they came from, but just so they weren't in the PSEG 11 warehouse.
Isn't something like that just a nominal 12 value item?
I mean, you know a relatively small 13 compared to almost everything else?
14 Yes, sir.
15 MR. BARBER:
I mean, I would think out of 16 all the things in the warehouse, that's going to be 17 one of the cheaper things?
18 Yes, it is.
Gaskets and 19 the bolting, and even those there's expansion 20 bubbles (phonetic) between them, right?
Because the 21 exhaust gas gets heated up and then it cools off.
22 MR.
BARBER:
Right.
23 It was very frustrating 24 for my mechanics and supervisors.
You don't think 25 that maintenance wants to go out there and fix it and NEAL R. GROSS I
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1 fix it once and then we would get onto something 2
different?
That's the way we were trying to set 3
everything out; rljare valve
- program, critical 4
service water valves, diesel valves.
I pushed long 5
and hard to get additional spare parts.
Revised the 6
programs for relief valves because we had a ton of 7
leakers and outdated materials and equipment.
So, I 8
started buying in new valves and.changirig them within 9
stores.
Not only relief valves, but valves as a 10 whole.
11 I was even buying updated pumps so that 12 some of my ECCS jockey pumps, I'd have a spare that --
13 but I knew one was failing as well as the motor that 14 nobody wanted to go look at.
15 The biggest battle I fought, and it is a 16 business and I understand that part, but the business 17 on the safety-related critical equipment, you've got 18 to factor in safety.
You don't screw around when it 19 comes to an emergency diesel.
You have all the right 20 parts and the basic components to go restore it or you 21 shut the plant down.
22 MR.
BARBER:
Right.
23 Public service didn't 24 want the mindset of you're not shutting the plant 25
- down, it's a business decision.
Where you could say NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.A In'M 'IAAA11 WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.neaIrgross.com
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23 24 25 that, all right, hey this is a really bad thing with diesels with exhaust fumes, but other than trying to beat up maintenance, who is out there saying it in the warehouse, right, stockpile the right parts?
Here's the notifications on maintenance role, here's the minimum inventories that we need, why aren't they are here?
Well, it's a business decision, the taxes.
MR.
BARBER:
Did any of that ever get documented in the condition report or notification or BP, you know business practice 9Parts?
MR.
BARBER:
Yes. Yes.
I mean, did --
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
When you wrote the notifications regarding that?
Yes.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
How many --
I mean estimate for your time frame how many of them addressed that particular issue?
A lack of parts, upgrade the parts?
I don't know.
How many did I write exactly myself?
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Not a specific number,'
but I mean if we were to look for them, how many do you think we'd find?
- Well, you'd find them NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Sure. For yourself and for others then?
m i-n. jj7
- Well, I had the supervisors because the supervisors were -- how'did they have it?
They'd have the crews and I'd have to sit down with the supervisors, like (phonetic),
he would be really good one for you to contact on that.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
On this particular issue?
- Oh, yes.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
How many do you think you wrote?
On the parts specifically?
On that one maybe How many did I direct to be written?
Too numerous to tell.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And were they written after you directed it?
Absolutely.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
So there's numerous in there then?
MR. BARBER: When we're saying "numerous,"
is that like more than ten?
a aa
,Ys Easily.
-7.
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1 MR.
BARBER:
Okay.
2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
More than ten and 3
less than 50 or what are we looking at here?
4
.Probably in the 50 plus 5
time range, at least.
6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
7 MR. BARBER:
When thesewere written, were 8
these written for each specific instance that came up 9
or was there ever a point where you were just like 10 kind of like totally fed up and just said, you know 11
- what, I'm going to write on that covers just this 12 whole problems that says, you know, engineering and 13 maintenance and ops and procurement need to sit down 14 and determine what the right parts are.
Because we 15 don't have the parts we need and look at all these 16 other notifications and then prove that this is a
17 programmatic issue and not just a, you know, a one 18 time miss of a key part?
19 jCNo, I did not do that and 20 I didn't. do that for a reason.
It took me around a 21 year and a half to really see the bigger picture and 22 how things were addressed and worked there.
I was 23 amazed at a lot of the behind the scenes attitudes, 24 people's personal influences, alignment, what got 25 addressed and what didn't.
So I
addressed the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 equipment issues with the supervisors and chiefs as they came because I was seeing the results of the bigger picture corrective actions and what wasn't being done with them or how they were being addressed.
So if I were to try to lump the bigger picture issues or the smaller issues into one, I would get less headway on that than addressing them individually.
11 You'll see oil notification not only for the service water valves, but for the work control --
higher than level one on the work control saying the work control was broken,-
that the work control planning system that addressed critical issues didn't address parts.
The work scope never stayed stable, which it didn't.
The work scope was never defined prior to us entering critical windows.
All these types of things within two or three weeks EIft11ias downgraded to immediately was downgraded to a level two and then to a level three.
MR.
BARBER:
Was the reason --
what was the reason why that was downgraded?
Did it have anything to do with the number and types of examples you had, that they were treated as like isolated cases?
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I C
1 JI think my sort that I 2
did said that the work control procedure had some --
3 I don't know, some ungodly, 450 previous notifications 4
out of them --
I don't know, 30 level twos inside of 5
one calendar year.
Inside of a calendar year.
6 MR.
BARBER:
Okay.
7 Okay?
Failure to a
maintain scope control.
Failure to meet the LC0-112, 9
failure to meet LCO execution.
I mean, yadda, yadda, 10
- yadda, yadda.
When you run them and you put them 11 altogether, it was pretty bad.
I was told that I was 12 being vindictive on the planning and work control 13 organization.
14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
By who?
15 17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
What was he tagging 18 that to?
I mean, in order for you to be vindictive, 19
.there had to be something prompting it?
20 It didn't need a level 21 one.
It wasn't a level one issue.
22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
But why vindictive?
23 Why would he use that word?
24 This was 25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
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2 Yes.
Individually, not--
3 I never got the two of them together.
4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
Separately.
5 Ah, I take that back. I 6
got the two of them together for maybe --
for all of 7
maybe five minutes and then*U n
ceck me 8
down and after that I never had another conversation 9
withAnd I had a follow up conversation 10 with 11 I showed them all examples.
I read it to 12 them.
13 To top it all off I had talked to other 14 people within the work management program and saidW 15
- I would like you to read 16 wand go into the notification and write in 17 it do you agree or do you disagree.
We will only make 18 changes and succeed if we do it as a whole. It's okay 19 to disagree with me, but something in there that I 20 disagree with and I think this ought to be done.
21 I agree wit and I think this ought to be done.
22 We have to drive it through to help make the change.
23 But individually you don't make changes. You can help 24 drive them, collectively you can make changes if you 25 have the right people in the right amount.
But you NEAL R. GROSS rt (
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9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22' 23 24 25 got to be able to put it in there.
You got to be able to go and stand up for what you're doing.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
So this --
jWSo I want to say, two or
- three, three or four, maybe even more at the superintendent
- level, people went into that notification and concurred.
Work management, superintendent level.
MR.
BARBER:
What do you mean they concurred?
They wrote in there that they agreed it should be a level one and it needs to be fixed.
MR. BARBER:
You mean numerous people just kind of signed on in the process some way to further endorse what you wrote?
In the computer.
MR.
BARBER:
Okay.
Written record.
MR.
BARBER:
All right. So do you have a feel for how many people that was?
Was that like one or two additional people or like ten people?
Oh, I'm going to say it was between five and ten.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
So this is sometime NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 in early 2003?
Was a year to a year and a half you said that you did this?
I This was --
I want to say this was in June, July, August time frame.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Of?
S2003.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
June, July, August 2003.
NMI=
Maybe even September.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
But it was getting later in the game.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
One second.
We're going to take a quick break. It is approximately 2:03 p.m.
(Whereupon, a recess).
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
All right. I'm back on the record. It's about 2:10 p.m.
Okay.
I had a question, before we get too far away from it, I don't know if we identified where that issue of it's because of the taxes that they're not going to keep parts in stores.
Did we identify an individual that you heard that from or how do you have that knowledge?
How do I I heard it NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 firsthand. I've heard it from groups of people in the warehouse-as well as some people in within the planning organization.
I've actually had planners, union planners come up and say "Do you know how much that part is?
- Well, why would we want to keep something like that?"
Because it's a critical thing and this is what's -- well, you know, we got rid of all those parts for a reason because we paid a lot of money in taxes on these and reducing that we're --
that's a great business decision, but in the long term it hurts us, not helps us.
So the culture, the thought process was more balanced around, even at the some of the worker level --
I heard it significant even -- significantly in planning.
But --
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Planning?
~
I'm sorry?
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
From planning you said?
I heard it from planning.
More from --
way more from the warehouse personnel.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
Planning.
Any particular individual?
Is this where you're saying there's groups of people?
W I heard it --
I heard it NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W, (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com
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9 10 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 22 23 24 25 into place because we'll have all the capacity and all the nuclear safety we need because we're doing the right things and it comes first nature.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Was there a point in time when they did -- they kept these pieces in spare in the warehouse or when did this come into effect where they got rid of it for tax purposes?
Ma am, when I got there they had already gone through and reduced the warehouse inventory.
I don't know what goals they set.
I don't know how much they got rid of.
I know it was significant.
When I first took over as the QWwe had no real spare parts.
And for like the service water, safety release service water valve we were always behind the eight ball and scrambling toget them just for normal scheduled work weeks.
So we changed some of that.
We saw issues with the Hope Creek diesels.
There are still issues with those diesels.
I gave you He can give you examples where there's significant diesel parts shortages. And he's written the notifications, I've asked him to, to try to we've given them the parts numbers and the minimum required so that if I have an issue with a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1
- diesel, I have the parts that I can go, --
go to 2
- stores, I
know will have them ahd keep the plant 3
reliable and safe.
4 I also forwarded that list t
5 (phonetic), who was the-anc 6
to our parts people.
I don't know if it was I
7 think I copie (phonetic),
who was the 8
but to two 9
0 people as well so that they would order these 10 parts.
And I had made the organization aware of it.
1I will tell you that, you know, 12 prior to
- on work management 13 there's an example of one diesel work package.
One 14 work order with 33 open notifications. Buried in that 15 work order it says I got a jacket water leak, I got a 16 oil leak here, I got a fuel leak. over there. And 17 30 some notifications, 30 some problems, 30 some 18 deficiencies built into one work order and maintenance 19 is expected to go and execute it.
And you got to dig 20 through it to go find those issues and make sure you 21 collect them. I got to find them and collect them and 22 fix them.
How do you find 30 on one work order a 23 combination of jacket water, op oil and fuel oil 24 leaks?
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9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 down? You know, it's near impossible.
And that it's easier to go add to notifications, like we talked about earlier.
Just find a notification and go in there and go dump in it rather than initiate another work order and address it correctly. That's how half the stuff gets missed.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
You're saying it's easier. You mean manually just easier to get into the ndtifications or is there a resistance to open a work order?
MAM S
There's resistance to open additional work orders.
You're causing --
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Is it easy enough to create a work order?
- MNo, it takes time. You have to have a planner.
A work order requires planning.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
So you can add to the notifications, but they're going to try and tie it to one, one piece's work order?
.1f Right.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Like you said, in this case there's 33 different problems noticed on one piece, but you still have the one work order?
This is on a diesel.
One NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 5
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1 work order, okay, 33 notifications tied to one work 2
order.
3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Right.
4 In essence, go fix the 5
diesel.
6 MR.
BARBER:
When was that?
7 When was it?
8 MR.
BARBER:
Yes.
9 Oh Lord.
When did I not 10 know you were going to ask me that question?
This is 11 a past refueling outage, this past refueling outage.
12 MR.
BARBER:
So spring of 2003?
13
- Yes, sir.
And if you 14 asked.-jhe has that work order number.
15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
16 Yes, ma'am.
17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
- Now, was that work 18 order ultimately closed then?
After the outage were 19 they able to get to all 33 problems?
20 I think we solved -- I'm 21 guessing, all right, so not exact.
I believe we 22 solved around 20 -- 29 or 30 of them.
And there was 23 a couple that for whatever reason we could not get to.
24 Maybe it was
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But that's an issue you run into is you NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 can't sort them all out.
And in essence it takes days 2
and days and days.
3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
To sort out what has 4
to go into the work order?
5 Well, after planning's 6
planned it 7
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Right.
8
[,
H*,
you're supposed to 9
have your package that you can go work.
And then when 10 the mechanics did it and tried to go to work, there's 11 so much in it that it takes days and days, and days 12 for the mechanic to have to go sort out, by the time 13 you're ready to work it 14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Right-
[*_*~~~--
well it's too late, 16 you're already in it.
You're already in the window.
17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
How long was this 18 particular work order in existence?
19, I don't have that answer.
20 MR.
BARfBER:
- The one thing that I'm a 21 little puzzled by is even if you add work to a work 22 order, doesn't the added work have to also be planned?
23 Could you repeat that 24 question?
25 MR.
BARBER:
- Well, I 'm making an NEAL R. GROSS
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1 assumption, but I think it may be true.
Even if you 2
have an existing work order, it has one activity on
- 3.
it, and a planner has to go out and plan the work. He 4
has to go out and walk down the job, look at what the*
5 job entails, what parts are needed.
Basically write 6
up the work order in some logical sequence so it can 7
be accomplished.
8 If you add additional work to that work 9
order, isn't there still a requirement for planning?
10 I mean, it may not be a separate document, but doesn't 11 the planner still have to go out and look at it, walk 12 the job down, you know, make sure it's properly 13 sequenced, all that kind of stuff.
14 MIMinI3UJ (Laughs).
!5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
You're laughing and 16 I have to point that out for the record. That doesn'r 17 always translate, j
18 1ij Oh, I'm sorry.
19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
No.
You can laugh if 20 you feel the need to laugh.
It's just that I have to 21 point it out because it doesn't always transcribe.
22 okay.
23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
So what are you 24 laughing about?
25 Now you understand wh NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 Part of the work process says 2
that workers will go back and get planned, replanned, 3
- restaged, rewalked down planner to give them the 4
maintenance and operations to go work.
And in those--
5 in that year's worth of notifications, 400 or 500 6
previous notifications to include level twos, all that 7
stuff's being called out.
Hey, here's a -- we're in 8
T-1 or T-zero and here's a work order and, hey, we got 9
to dump it out of the schedule because it wasn't 10 planned correctly, someone went and added it to the 11 notification, it was never sent back and replanned.
12 So we're going to set ops and maintenance up to fail 13 right off the bat.
14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
I see.
15 9.*,So I tried to touch base 16 and cover all the litany of things and say, hey, it's 17 broken let's sit down and get the right group, a few 18 other people you need to sit with me and say go into 19 this electronically and say it's broken, let's fix it.
20 MR.
BARBER:
What would they do, though?
21 If something was emerging or it was the last minute 22 thought, somebody says hey, you know, they're getting 23 into the B diesel, let's and there's this other 24 issue that's outstanding, let's just lump it in the 25 work package.
How do they do it if they don't plan NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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49 1
it?
I mean, do they just send in the number of the 2
notification and say effect repairs to address the 3
problem identified in notification umptysquat?
I 4
mean, is that what is says and then it's up to you to 5
figure out what that entails?
6 In some cases the 7
notification was --
if you read the work order or you 8
had to go into the work order notes, okay, you might 9
find notification 2000 whatever lube oil leak at 10 telltale. Please investigate and effect repairs. All 11 right?
But it was buried in there, it was completely 12 missed.
So whoever allocated it to that work order, 13 never went through for the process of putting that 14 hold or sent it back to planning so that they would go 15 execute you.
16 You know, emergent work order, I get an 17 emergent failure of a diesel or a pump or valve, I got 18 two processes.
Number one, I make it a prime one work 19 order for the process.
Right.
So it gets immediate 20 attention by planning.
It may not get the best 21 attention, because you're pressed for time.
And I 22 also have the winching process.
23 MR.
BARBER:
Right.
24 Right. So you address the 25 emergent work like that.
Typically what I saw in the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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- past, even the emergent work other than the WINT 2
(phonetic) team wasn't --
it was -- well, we didn't 3
even consider fit, form or function, right.
Get the 4
work order, get it on the street and give it to 5
planning.
- Well, hey, it's not workable.
Well, you 6
should have told us up front.
No. You need to plan 7
it.
There was great resistance.
8 Some people tried to effect the right --
9 the right program corrections, if.you will., lik 10 (phonetic).
q did a great job.
He said 11 I'll cater and give you any work order you want.
But 12 once I give it to you, it's yours. Not a problem.
All 13 right. But let's go change the process.
14 Well, I'm getting pushed. I got to get all 15 these backlogs done, we got to get this done, we got 16 that done.
, you know, if you plan 50 and I'm 17 going to send 40 back, that's the wrong process.
I 18 know, but I'm getting beat up, I got to these out, I 19 got to get them out, I got to get them out.
20
- Well, you know, let's go to and 21 company and tell them.
I'll help as much as I can.
22 I'll put more people on walk downs to help you, but 23 you got to give me a quality work order. You got to 24 have, you know, ten, 15, 20, 30 notifications buried 25 into one work order. It doesn't work.
And they need NEAL R. GROSS.
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1 to be relatively detailed and accurate to match the 2
work we're going to go do.
3 Look at the previous history.
See how 4
much time it takes?
Yes, I do.
5 I can if I got a failed valve or a 6
failed pump, you know, what did I do the last two 7
times?
What was my corrective actions the last two 8
times I went out there with a valve and what am I 9
going to do going forward?
I can marry those previous 10 corrective actions to what it's doing right now and 11 have a really great idea of what we're going to do 12 tomorrow to go fix it, and it matches up.
13 You
- know, you get similar results or 14 similar failures in the past, as well as totally 15 different ones, so you know what history has given you 16 so history doesn't repeat itself when you're done.
17 But great pressure to get the backlog 18 down, just get it killed, just get the work done and 19 get the packages out there.
20 I have to say this:
t Hope 21 Creek was really working his guts out and trying to do 22, a good job of making the packages better.
And I don't 23 think he was getting near the support he needed.
24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Is he still there?
25 Yes, ma'am.
And I can't NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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52 1
I really I really --
my personal experiences 2
with him, I couldn't speak highly enough of him.
And 3
I knew he was under a lot of pressure.
4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
5 If you look at the level 6
one that the work management --
7 the W map (phonetic), W map one I think it was called, 8
-there's work week superintendents that are supposed to 9
be organizational leaders don't talk to the ones 10 that wrote
- I*
- and agreed with me, if 11 you will.
Talk to I think there's...
12 (End of side one) 13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
45 minutes.
14 It's side B we're on.
Back on the record at 15 approximately 2:27 p.m.
16 Okay.
You said¢ jtalked to 17 you?
18 There's people that 19 didn't go. into notification for level one.
Here's 20 what I'm telling you, within the level one there's, I 21 don't know, a group of people that concur.
So I mean, 22 that's the facts.
You can read it.
23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Right.
That's 24 documented as part of it.
But why is 25 significant?
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1 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Well, there's a couple of them still
- there, being
- one, being another one.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
'can you spell that?
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
I don' t believe they wrote into it.
Go ask them what the process is.
Go ask --
if you want to get a flavor of what. I'm telling you, go ask them what they considered me, and then if I had an idea and had a plan and if what I was telling the organization was true and reflective. And ask them what they're going through.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
I'm sorry, I missed that last part?
Ask them what they're going through.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Ask them what they're going through, okay.
i What I'm telling you is, you've been --
I haven't, spoke with them and they sure didn't go into but --
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
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54 1
saying?
We coUld ask them and they --
2 Objective and with those 3
two people, I'm asking you to go ahead and mention my 4
name.
5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Oh, okay.
I guess we 6
should make that clear. In any instance that we can 7
use your name, you should let us know where that would.
8 be all right.
Those two.
Those 10 those two people have integrity.
11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
What about the other 12 three that you mentioned, the mechanics?
13 Yes..
14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
If necessary.
15 l..
If necessary.
16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
If necessary?
17 And ask them to keep it 18 to themselves.
19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
So that means 20 you're really not that comfortable with it to go that 21 level. I mean, I'm looking at a situation like this 22 and thinking we can ask the questions without having 23 to say where the information came from.
So if that's 24 your preference, we'll do that.
25 Yes.
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55 1
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
What do you think 2
we'd gain by using your name wit and 3
- jthough?
Why is that different?
4 Truly, I think they'll --
5 I think they'll open up more.
6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
7 I really do.
8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
I just 9
wondered what the difference was.
You don't have that 10 concern with the other mechanics then?
11 I think the mechanics are 12 going to open up pretty good.
13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
14
-T Q(phonetic),
15
/7(phonetic).
16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
17 Yes.
18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
19 (phonetic).
20 You can --
you can use my name with him, too.
21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
That's 22 okay, too.
23 And 24 (phonetic), yes.
My God.
Oh Lord.
25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
You know what, more NEAL R. GROSS A
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56 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 12 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 than that how- -
likely it won't come up.
1That's okay.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
If there are some you don't care --
,7I don't. You know what--
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
It all depends on
,17 I don't care if you use my name.
At this point in the record, if you use my name at all.
You can use it with everybody, because they all know me and they all knew what I stood for.
And I all knew. it doesn't matter.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Well, you know what?
We'll do it this way; lots of times based on the information that we're following up on, people know where the information came from.
You know, they can make that assumption. What we don't do is confirm it for them.
So we'll just let it go at that.
Okay.
I'll tell you right now if it comes --
when it comes t oand go ahead because you're liable to get additional information.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
That's a different situation then.
Okay.
What do you think?
Have we closed out the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 discussion for work orders and the work process and scheduling?
MR.
BARBER:
Yes.
I don't have anymore questions on that.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
What about from your end, 1M.
Are you satisfied with that?
I believe so.
And the more questions you ask me, it leads me down other paths, so --
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
That' s okay, that's what we're here for.
So if you think of something, please put it out there.
We don't have a time constraint.
I'm a little worried about what your weather is doing, so. you let me know.
Because I have no idea what's going on at Just let me know if you need to leave,, okay?
Right.
Yes.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And, you know, if we had to, we could follow up again.
You know, my preference is to see it through, but if we had to we could do that.
-a_,*...
Great.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Let's do this, what about this we got to from me asking you if there were some other issues.
And I don't want to be too NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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58 1
- specific, but in terms of we talked about 2
notifications and the handling and it started with the 3
one on the recirc pump.
You know, had you seen things 4
handled that way before, written off for a business 5
decision that was not documented appropriately in 6
response to the level one?
Do you have any other 7
incidents that go along those lines?
The other issue 8,
that you went to immediately had to do with the 9
valves, the safety related service water values, and 10 level one to bring 11 attention to that.
12 Right.
13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Aid you said the 14 company recognized it and took action after a
15 struggle.
I think the word was "a struggle."
16 It was.
It was more of 17 a struggle it was more of a struggle with the 18 warehouse people.
And there was people there that --
19 within the warehouse still resented it.
20 MR. BARBER:
Is there some names out there 21 that you felt were the key players in making sure --
22
- well, I
shouldn't say making sure that were 23 involved with sending the equipment back and that 24 seemed to, you know, that seemed to be the primary 25 focus was on paying less taxes?
I think you mentioned NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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11 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 59 somebody in maybe as a planner or maintenance or something?
But how about people in procurement, was there any names that stood out?
WSome people a little more adamant about it than other --
it's more --
it truly is organizational.
It's at the organizational level, not the individual.
MR.
BARBER:
Okay.
Okay.
But believe it or not, it's organizational.
MR.
BARBER:
Okay.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
So what they were telling you to do in this instance --
where you saw the struggle here was in getting the parts that you wanted had to do with this paying taxes for items that you kept in storage?
Getting the parts and maintaining them and then the monies associated with--
with storing them.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
But you're attributing that to it's an organizational mindset on not wanting to pay the taxes on it?
M And more than --
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
More so than any individual?
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1 2
3 4
.5 6
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 is 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 organizational in the warehouse.
huge.
bU
'es, ma'am.
More
- Actually, it was SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
All right.
After we talked about those issues, then we talked about the work process a bit.
Do you have anything else to add to those concerns or any of the
- concerns,
]4=1 the level one.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Right.
the level one also attributed to me leaving.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
In what way?
the level one and pushing back on the recirc pump because I was not a perceived *team player.
I was for all the maintenance and I was for the work week superintendents, but for the rest of the organization I wasn't.
Bringing the issues up on the recirc pump, bringing the issues up and pushing them on the diesels, bringing them up and writing the notifications that procedures weren't accurate, that the work management processes was broke and that I needed work accurate work orders and accurate parts in hand that I was not a team player.
MR.
BARBER:
Why do you feel that way?
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61 1
Why do I feel that way?
2 MR.
BARBER:
Yes.
I mean specifically 3
that--
4 3Iii giveyouone I'li 5
give you one prime example.
the level one on 6
the work management process and had those people go in 7
The supervisor of the 8
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Who was?
9 W~0h](phonetic) 10 QA is supposed to be an impartial separate, segregate 11 from the organization to keep us -- you know what QA 12 does.
13 The supervisor. of the made 14 a statement that all I was doing was positioning 15 myself for a lawsuit, and made that statement to other 16 people.
17 MR.
BARBER:
What did he mean by that?
18
°1ýthe notification 19 to position myself for a lawsuit.
20 MR.
BARBER:
What kind of lawsuit?
I 21 don't understand that.
What does he mean by that?
22 M
I didn't go ask.
23 MR.
BARBER:
You mean a lawsuit against 24 you or something that you could -- you could --
25 No.
He was against NEAL R. GROSS Ct-COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 3
4 5
.7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 public service --
MR.
BARBER:
6h.
Oh, he thought it had some sort of malicious intent behind it?
Jili Yes.
But it's because I instead of bringing it to me and going and looking at it and sitting down and saying is there something adverse to quality, adverse to the organization; he made that comment to other people.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
id you say?
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Yes, ma' am, SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
- M n
this is when.
the level one in Onrlwork management.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Which was?
What was the time frame, June/July?
- June, July,
- August, something --
it was it was more it was more
- July, August or September; sometime in that time frame.
It was during --
during reorganization.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.
So he saw this as something that you did to help yourself, not
'necessarily to outline what the concern was in the NEAL R. GROSS Pii -* r COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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2 3
4 5
6 7
.8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 level one?
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Was it to get you so that you have engaged in some sort of protected activity?
Is that it?
I didn't ask him, ma'am.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
So you don't know what he meant by that statement?
M.
Didn't bother.
With a comment from-- supposed to be a separate department, a separate organization, though.
MR. BARBER:
Independent?
-~~~2JRight.
MR. BARBER:
Yes.
hI I Before somebody opens their mouth like that and acts like that, why wouldn't they go ask?
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Is this a
comment that would be unique to you or had you heard that attributed to other people?
I recognize this is a
time frame where they're going through a reorg.
Right.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Was this like an allegation type of thing that he would say the other people and concerns that were documented?
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SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Had you heard that?
3:E I--
from him?
4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Well, not necessarily 5
from him, but had it been reported to you that other 6
people were positioning themselves for a lawsuit?
7 I have heard that from 8
not the whole organization at all.
Actually, more 9
people were afraid, just plain out afraid.
They 10 wanted their jobs.
Public Service actually has very, 11 very good benefits and pays very well.
So I had heard 12 it, but not a lot.
Not in an alarming manner or a 13 overwhelming matter at all.
14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
But it was something 15 that was out there in this time frame --
16
- jOh, yes.
17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
that somebody 18 might have positioned themselves is what they were --
19GE M9 Ys 20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Do you think that 21 affected how the concern was addressed and do you know 22 what their concerns were about?
23 7 Whose concerns, ma'am?
24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: If.you had heard that 25 about other people?
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Yes.
2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
That they were 3
positioning themselves for a lawsuit, do you know what 4
their concerns were?
5 No.
No.
If it was --
6 there was one individual that worked for me, his name 7
was (phonetic).
He had been moved from a 9
F..
When it came time 10 for his performance review time, I documented his 11 changes and his previous experience, and that he 12 needed more help and needed more time and a certain 13 amount of schooling, if you will.
Because it was 14 unfair to judge him as a0 15 supervisor performer when his experience was a
16 and then an 17 j right.
And then we threw him in as a first 18 He was let go of during 19 a selection process.
20 He had made mention that, okay, now that 21 I have not been selected, then I'll probably position 22 myself.
And I told him flat out, you know, if that's 23 what you feel is necessary, that is good.
You have a 24 performance review and it's an honest reflection --
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review that I -- that I did for him that it was most 2
honest or something to that affect performance he had 3
ever gotten. And he actually wrote it in and thanked 4
me for it.
And if somebody does a good job, you tell 5
them.
If somebody doesn't do a good job, you tell 6
them what they're doing good and then you tell them 7
where they need to improve and tell them how they need 8
to improve so there's no mistaking it and then help 9
them.
And 99 out of a 100 times you can help people.
10 You can help anybody who wants to be helped and make 11 them succeed.
it's the guys that don't want to 12 succeed, won't. And those are the ones those are 13 your battles.
14 was somebody that wanted to 15 succeed.
16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
- Now, did this 17 situation, and that example is a little different than 18 yours.
You had a concern and somebody took that to 19 mean that you were positioning yourself in the time of 20 the reorg.
21 Yes.
22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
His is a little 23 different in that it was based on performance 24 appraisals that may or not have been adequate during 25 this reorganization.
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67 1
R gh 2
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
But in terms of what 3
thisjwas saying, I'm just looking at had 4
you heard of that?
And had you heard of anybody else 5
having a concern where it was treated in that way?
6 jNo. No. That' s why I was 7
I was really surprised.
8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
With 9
reaction?
10
-Yes, ma'am.
11 SP2CIAI AGENT NEFF:
Now, we're talking 12 about your
- this, contributed to your leaving.
13 You're thinking the fact that the level one 14 and that you pushed on the recirc pump issue, what 15 makes you connect those two issues to your leaving?
16 Because I was not a team 17 player because I didn't believe that the recirc pump 18 was being addressed correctly, that I didn't think 19 that corrective actions outlined in a route one were 20 effective, and I made that statement.
I made that 21 statement to a couple of people that 22 do we have in effect a corrective actions, 23 the notification that says that we do these corrective 24 actions in a route one are ineffective, because we're 25 not going to follow them or amend it.
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2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR.
BARBER:
Did they tell you that that in someway effected their decision to select you or not select you for the position you bid for?
Oh, yes.
MR.
BARBER:
Was there something either direct or indirect in their actions or their words that said, you know, you're out the door or, you know, you're hurting your chances to be selected?
I mean, they did say anything overtly in response to that?
No, nothing overtly or inadvertently.
Much less interaction.
MR.
BARBER:
Okay.
Avoidance.
Not getting invited to the critical meetings.
MR.
BARBER:
So they distanced themselves from you?
that?
=A Y es.
MR. BARBER-That would be your opinion of Yes.
MR.
BARBER:
Was there any other indications, you know, that kind of by the QA person we understand that that person made that comment and it didn't appear to be well founded, but was there anything else that you either heard through other NEAL R. GROSS 7(7 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 69 channels, either through coworkers or anything like that, that said as a result of you raising this issue, as a
result of you raising this --
1V0 this significance level one notification you're not going to be selected for your position?
Was there anything like that?
fIt was communicated to me that I needed to be more of a team player and I need to do more sitting down with those people and getting them to buy into me, to be more proactive in my approach on those issues.
MR. BARBER:
Okay.
How did you take that comment?
Was that -- when that was made at the time, and you're the only one that can really answer this, I mean, did you view that as something constructive or did you view it as kind of a warning?
'5 I
-- I immediately viewed it as a warning.
MR. BARBER:
Was it intended to be constructive or was it really intended to be a warning in your view?
a warning.
.IJ.
Oh, it was intended to be MR.
BARBER:
Okay.
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And when was that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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comment made in relation to when you lost your 2
position there?
3 Into the start of the 4
reorg, so that was right at the beginning.
5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
So what's the month 6
for that?
7
~.j June/July time frame.
8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Same time frame as 9
level one, right?
10 Yes.
11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And who said that to 12
- you, 13 (phonetic).
14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
Was your 15 position eliminated in the reorg?
16 No.
17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Somebody holds it 18 now?
19 Yes.
20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Did they keep the 21 team players?
22
- Yes, ma'am.
23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Did they keep anybody 24 who would compare to you in terms of raising issues?
25 Did others like you lose their job; put it that way?
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_Yes.
2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Were there others 3
like you who noted the concerns or pushed issues?
I 4
- mean, in your position and what --
5 lat w
Yes.
6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
And do they 7
still hold their jobs?
8 No.
9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Who would those 10 people be, 11 Either demoted or gone?
12 13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
He's still
- there, 14 right, but demoted then?
1-5
- Yes.
16 SPECIAL. AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
Who is in your 17 position?
19 (phonetic).
20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.
Anybody else 21 you said who is demoted or gone who also raised 22 concerns?
23 oh, a whole I'm 24 25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Demoted or gone?
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10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SE C I L A E,N G o neF SPECIAL AGENT NEFF :
S~mrnrnau MR. BARBER:
Now the way you described it, though, it sounded like the reason that he was let go had to do'with the number of moves he had made and his opportunity to just gain experience in his positions.
Because he at least the way I took it was you described him as having maybe more experience with chemistry
-Ys J /MII Yes.
MR.
BARBER:
And then he got moved into the administrative 'job, and then he got moved into maintenance.
You wrote him a fair appraisal, but it probably wasn't as good as somebody that had more experience.-
i*
Right.
MR.
BARBER:
But based on that, that he was let go. But there was also the moves involved that put him in that position?
Yes. And the moves that that --
what led up to it was the selection process was by another superintendent that did not like him because stood up to him and challenged him.
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Who was that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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.. /(phonetic).
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
We talked about him before.
9 Oh, oh, oh, I'm surprise you don' t have a revolving door with his name all over it, with people, which I actually think you do.
But--
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
If I remember, you put him into the category of you saw some improvements.
We talked about leavin the site and you were saying that in essence that was a good thing, but that there's this old boy syndrome there.
And part of that old boy syndrome that you would have concerns with is M
and Yes.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
They were part of it?
Yesaw m ntee too.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF Alk Right.
Yes.
The other part over and you got their counterparts at Hope Creek.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Same positions at NEAL R. GROSS i
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10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Hope Creek?
r!.
I; Yes.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
names on that side?
-7 Who are the 11, SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Whose the last one?
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Yes.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
I'm not getting the spelling for that.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Oh, Okay.
And I'm not sure that this is part of the record when we last recorded, your concerns about the old -- whose part of the old boy syndrome is primarily what?
WM000"'
They will inhibit the culture change required and promote the or adversely prompt the chilled environment.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And examples of the behaviors that contribute to your opinion-on that is what?
Not writing the notifications, not addressing the process. Just work NEAL R. GROSS I
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SPECIAL AGENT NEFF.
The situation you described we touched on the other day, and you had indicated to me that you're not making a
discrimination complaint to the NRC at this time.
Is that still the case?
I need to reconsider that.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
That's something you want to thank about?
- Yes, it is.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
Okay.
And I let you know earlier about the time frames that apply with DOL, right?
Yes, ma'am.
MR.
BARBER:
How.about any further thoughts on whether or not you want to make a
technical allegation?
Yes.
MR.
BARBER:
Or an allegation on the technical issues?
SYes, I. do.
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More specifically, I guess, how you want to be considered on that, do you want to be considered a third party as part of this NEAL R. GROSS Ic-COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS
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ongoing safety conscientious work environment inquiry 2
or would you like to be identified as an alleger on 3
these issues on sets that you
- get, separate 4
correspondence to you in terms of what the NRC finds?
5 please.
6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
You want to be deemed 7
an 8
That's correct.
9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
All right.
10
- Now, we still have an whole area, and 11 unfortunately Scott has a meeting he has to leave for.
12 So let me get into this with you.
13 Obviously, we're going to have some follow 14 up on your decision regarding the discrimination 15 decision?
16 Yes.
17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
18 MR.
BARBER:
And just for the record, we 19 need to make sure, we may want to get the name -- you 20 know, we have his name.
We need the phone number and 21 address.
Maybe we can get it off the tape.
But I 22 don't want --
23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
We have that. We have 24 it.
25 MR.
BARBER:
Okay.
And then the other NEAL R. GROSS
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9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 77 thing is, just to try to summarize.
I want to make sure that we have the big picture issues that you think are technical issues.
And let me just try and briefly summarize those.
And if I mischaracterize them, just kind of set me straight.
I think the one is the way the B recirc pump was addressed and the way that was handled, and whether or not additionalwork is needed and what the time frame is.
That's kind of one big issue, is that correct?
Yes.
MR.
BARBER:
Okay.
The other one, which was the one that we discussed earlier on, it was on Tuesday, had to do with the relief valves, the safety valves.
Permanent relief valves for -- you said there was problems with the way --
that the work was closed prematurely because the as left testing was done prior to closing out the work packages?
I
-v Correct.
MR.
BARBER:
Now from a regulatory perspective we would primarily be concerned with safety related systems, but we may end of if we do a review of that, we may end up looking at nonsafety.
But that would be our focus in that area?
That's correct.
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MR.
BARBER:
Okay.
So that would be like 2
a second major area.
3 And then the third area, I'm not sure how 4
we would go after it, but the last one we talked about 5
the sort of on-line maintenance work control process, 6
how things were managed.
You know, the way that 7
notifications were put into work orders that, you 8
- know, there was an overload condition, that they 9
weren't adequately planned and things of that nature.
10 And I would imagine a lot of that would be provided --
11 the level of detail would be in that level one 12 notification I, is that correct?
13 That's correct.
14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
So those were 15 like three major issues.
Is that a kind of a
16 summation of what we have thus far or have I missed 17 something?
18 Your summation is 19 accurate.
I'd like to add this.
That if I'm getting 20 the level ones, even the level twos and I gave you an 21 example of the root cause that was done on the Bravo 22 recirc pump, and I gave.you an example of the work 23 control, it's strictly my opinion but I am of a strong 24 opinion that the correction actions within the 25 organizational at the organizational level are NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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ineffective, thereby misleading and thereby adding to 2
the human performance and the chilling effect that 3
you're seeing.
4 MR.
BARBER:
Okay.
Is that a technical 5
concern or a work environment concerns?
Because I 6
think we're --
7 Iwould lead and give you 8
evidence of both.
9 MR.
BARBER:
Okay.
10 In that case, because if 11 it's corrective actions you can't have have one 12 without the other.
13 MR.
BARBER:
Okay.
14 And if you've got a 15 technical concern and it's not being addressed or it 16 was addressed and.not followed through and the 17 organization either programmatically failed to 18 recognize that by dropping -- or dropping it in that 19 section, or up front recognizing that they're going to 20 go parallel paths, and do something different without 21 updating or changing their program, or whether a route 22 one, then r submit respectfully that the equipment or 23 the people, they're going to fail.
They have to both 24 marry.
25 MR.
BARBER:
Okay.
All right.
So you NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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Yes.
MR.
BARBER:
Okay.
I think we got that.
But I would put it under both categories, though.
MR.
BARBER:
Okay.
Okay.
I think if you start looking at the you know, if it's over in bypass valves.
MR.
BARBER:
Okay.
You know, if there was a route one done on that, tell me where the organization played into that one and was there a monetary effect?
Was there input like there is unseen on this B recirc pump?
Is there commonalities there?
MR.
BARBER:
Okay.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
~-Yes, ma am.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
There was another category that we touched on but we didn't develop the last time we talked on the 27th.
And that category had to do with people hesitating.
I think the word is they're afraid to identify tagging issues and human performance issues.
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Yes, ma' am.
2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Examples of that 3
would be what?
4 You have to leave?
Excuse me one second, 6
MR.
BARBER:
Yes.,
thanks for your 7
time today. I have to excuse myself. I have to leave 8
and prepare for another meeting I have at 3:00.
But 9
I think we've covered the majority of technical 10 issues.
And if there's something additional, I'm sure 11 Eileen can brief on it, 12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Well, it'll come out 13 in the transcript.
14 MR. BARBER:
But I feel pretty comfortable 15 with what I've heard.
16 All right.
17 MR.
BARBER:
That I understand what your 18 concerns are.
19 So thank you for your time.
And Eileen 20 will finish up.
21 Thank you for your time.
22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
- Okay, 23 h
Rather than me giving 24 examples 25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
All right.
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9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I used to tell my folks I'd give them gifts, a gift of feedback. And I'll give you this:
If you talk to SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
If you talk to If you talk to who are chiefs.
Forget the supervisors.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Was that g
did you say?
° Yes, ma'am.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
Let them answer.--
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
That would be in terms of afraid to identify tagging issues or human performance issues?
Yes, ma'am.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Is that what you're saying for both?
- 3.
Yes, ma'am.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
Does that mean that you didn't see that firsthand?
This is stuff that you heard about after?
S J No, ma'am.
I saw it firsthand.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Oh, okay.
What kind f
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1 of things would people not --
what kind of issues 2
would they not identify as a tagging issue?
3
- They wouldn't identify 4
whether or not the work package was tied to the tags 5
for the equipment.
6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
So what we 7
talk the--
what led to I
level one?
8Yes.
9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
Whether or not 10 the work packages were tied to the --
11
~Tagging.
12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
tagging.
13 Whether or not they're SO 14 approved, whether the right configuration was in the 15 field.
And -- and --
16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
Configuration 17 issues?
18
.*nAhd whether or not --
if 19 we bring up something, we're going to get in trouble.
20 And that's all that ever happens.
It doesn't get 21 fixed, but somebody just gets in trouble.
22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
The mindset?
23 Yes, ma'am.
24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
If we bring it up.
25 And you're saying I'll hear that from these three NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
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10 11 12 13 14 15 individuals?
Caw Yes, ma'am.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
What about documentation of anything?
I mean, I realize that's kind of a twist that you're saying that they were afraid to identify these tagging issues.
To your knowledge, is there anything that would be documented regarding this?
.jYes, ma'am.
They'll give you some SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Some notifications do exist?
Yes, 'ma'am.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Were these notifications they generated?
16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I.
.Yes, ma'am.
SPECIAL AGENT'NEFF:
Okay.
Okay.
So the feeling there was I think you said if you bring it up they',ll get in trouble but it won't get fixed?
Right.
I had heard about some during the outage and I sat down with And we had a long talk, him and I.
I promised him nothing would happen, but I also promised him that he wouldn't be able to stand himself if he sat across from the table like I was doing to him NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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right now and he was looking at somebody's wife and 2
two or three kids and he had to say, because I was 3
afraid somebody was going to get into trouble, I
4 didn't do or say anything to fix it.
And when I 5
didn't do that, that's why your husband died.
6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
So as I understand it 7
then, the human performance issue would be somebody's 8
error.
So that would be the someone who gets in 9
trouble, but the issue wouldn't be fix at the same 10 time.
So that the tagging issue would be a human 11 performance error as well?
12 Yes, 'ma'am.
13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
So those are 14 two separate issues that they're afraid to raise and 15 they kind of go hand-in-hand?
16 Yes, ma'am.
17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
All right.
18 Just so I understood you there.
But you're thinking 19 these three people could give us some clarity on 20 specific on that?
21 Yes, ma'am.
22 SPECIALAGENTNEFF:
Okay.
Anything else, 23 25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
One other NEAL R. GROSS
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9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 86 thing I'd like to ask you.
On the 27th before we conducted the interview, I placed you under oath. Did you proceed with this part of the interview under the assumption that you were still under oath?
With my whole heart.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
So there's --
Yes.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
All right.
The information that you just provided today is still to the best of your knowledge, the truth and the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
SSo help me God.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
You know what I would like to do is, we took your --
I know I have your home phone number as SMRight.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
And your home address you provided on the 27th as well. But, you know what?
I might as well take it now because we're going to provide this with additional information for the allegation process.
(202) 234-4433 Yes, ma'am.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
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9 10 11 12 13 14 is 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 87 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
I "ID okay.
'i tt 4,?;
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Yes, ma'am.
SPECIAL AGENT.NEFF:
Okay.
The allegation coordinator, the senior allegation coordinator's name is Dave Vedp (phonetic).
Okay.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
More than likely, he has a staff of another two people or so, but more than likely it would be Dave Vedo with follow up on this issue that you would be hearing from.
Just so you recognize the name.
Okay.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
At this point, do we have anything further to add from information that you would like to have added to the record, either something we haven't asked, some issue that you think is important that we --
you know, draw our attention to?
Nothing I can think of.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
I just have a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 couple of standard questions for you.
Has anyone from the
- NRC, any NRC representative offered you any promises of reward or threatened you in any manner In exchange for your information?
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Have you provided this information freely and voluntarily?
Yes, I have.
SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
Okay.
At this point what I'm going to do is go off the record.
It is approximately 3:03 p.m.
And I thank you for this large portion of your time.
SYou're welcome.
(Whereupon, the interview was concluded at 3:03 p.m.)
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CERTIFICATE This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the matter of:
- Name of Proceeding: Interview of Docket Number:.
1-20Q3-051F Location:
telephone interview were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission taken by me and, thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under the direction of the court reporting company, and that the transcript is a true and accurate record of the foregoing proceedings as recorded on tape(s) provided by the NRC..
Q-Tdy Hkt Official Transcriber Neal R. Gross & Co.,
Inc.
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