ML20154F774
| ML20154F774 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Shoreham File:Long Island Lighting Company icon.png |
| Issue date: | 05/18/1988 |
| From: | Atomic Safety and Licensing Board Panel |
| To: | |
| References | |
| CON-#288-6393 OL-3, NUDOCS 8805240070 | |
| Download: ML20154F774 (170) | |
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UNrfED STATES O
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 1 ............................................................
In the Matter of: )
) Docket No.
LONG ISLAND LIGHTING COMPANY ) 50-322-OL-3
) (Emergency Planning)
(Shoreham Nuclear Power Station, ) (School Bus Driver Unit 1) ) Issue) l l
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LOCATION: Hauppauge, New York PAGES: 19831 through 19998 DATE: May 18, 1988
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19831 1 UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION ATOMIC SAFETY AND LICENSING BOARD 2
In the Matter oft )
3 ) Docket No.
LONG ISLAND LIGHTING COMPANY ) 50-322-OL-3 4 ) (Emergency Planning)
(Shoreham Nuclear Power ) (School Bus Driver 5 Station, Unit 1) ) Issue) 6 7 Wednesday, May 18, 1988 8
State Office Building 9 Hauppauge, New York 10 The above-entitled matter came on for hearing 11 at 9:20 a.m.
12 BEFOR2: HON. JAMES GLEASON, Chairman of the Board
() 13 For the Board 14 JUDGE JERRY KLINE 15 JUDGE FRED SHON 16 APPEARANCES :
17 On behalf of Applicants:
18 JAMES M. CHRISTMAN, ESQ.
19 MARY JO LEUGERS, ESQ.
Hunton & Williams 20 707 East Main Street, P.O. Box 2535 Richmond, Virginia 23212 21 (Continued on next page.)
22 23 TANKOOS REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
150 Nassau Street 223 Jericho Turnpike 24 New York, N.Y. 10038 Mineola, N.Y. 11501 (212)349-9692 (516)741-5235 C:)
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19832 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 On behalf of the Intervonors 3 RICHARD J. ZANNLEUTER, Esq.
Deputy Special Counsel to the Governor 4 Executive Chamber, the Capitol, Room 229 Albany, New York 12224 5
CHRISTOPHER McMURRAY, ESQ.
6 J. LYNN TAYLOR, ESQ.
MICHAEL S. MILLER, ESQ.
7 Kirkpatrick & Lockhart 1800 M Street, N.W.
8 Washington, D.C. 20036-5891 9 On behalf of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission:
10 RICHARD BACHMANN, ESQ.
MITZI YOUNG, ESQ.
11 Office of the General Counsel United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission 12 Washington, D.C. 20555
(:) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19833 1 INDEX 2 WITNESS DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS 3 Panel 4 Dennis Mileti Michael K. Lindell 5 Robert B. Kelly 19834 6 EXMIBIT NO. IDEN: RECD: DESCRIPTION 7 Suffolk County Bus Drivers 8 No. 6 19871 19876 12-page document with listing of information 9 on first page.
10 No. 7 19874 19876 13-page document, second survey.
11 No. 8 19879 19926 12-page document, 12 survey instrument.
13 No. 9 19883 19926 13-page document, O 14 interview schedule.
No. 10 19891 19926 13-page document, 15 interview schedule.
16 No. 11 19962 10-page docume:t dated 3/25/8F, 17 interview schedule.
interviewee name, 18 Jean Pratt.
19 No. 12 19962 Interview schedule, interviewee name, 20 Rochelle Laird.
21 INSERTS: PAGE #
22 No inserts in this transcript.
23 24 25 O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
5 t
t 19834 !
- 1. PROCEEDINGS 1
2 JUDGE GLEASON: Any preliminary ,
a 3 matters, gentlemen?
4 MR. CHRISTMAN: I have one.
5 Yesterday there were questions about 6 numbers derived from some phone calls LILCO made 7 earlier this year and they were requested. I have 8 had them tied up snd with your permission I will 9 hand them to everybody. I must say I think the 10 question yesterday will be real hard to understand 11 without this document. If the County doesn't i 12 oventually offer it as an exhibit, I intend to.
l 13 JUDGE GLEASON: All right.
14 MR. CHRISTMAN: For clarity's sake, the 15 numbers from the 4/88 phone calls are the i
i 16 right-hand-most column on this document, as you can i
17 see. There is--the vertical line of hyphens between l 18 LILCO 7/87 and NYS 1/19/88 can be ignored. They are 19 not minus signs.
20 JUDGE GLEASON: Ms. Taylor--or who is i
I 21 going to proceed?
22 MR. McMURRAY: Mr. McMurray.
23 JUDGE GLEASON: Mr. McMurray, 24 Whereupon, 25 DENNIS MILETI O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
t t
I 19835 [
1 MICMAEL K. LINDELL ;
i s 2 ROBERT B. KELLY f
3 having been previously sworn, resumed and testified 4 further as follows: [
L 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION (Coni' d. ) [
6 BY MR. McMURRAY: !
7 Q. Gentlemen, go to page 26. For the ,
8 record, I note on page 25 there is testimony from r
9 Mr. Crocker which will have to be deferred until ,
10 tomorrow's cross-examination since he is not here, 11 so let's go to page 26.
12 MR. McMURRAY: Judge Gleason, should I [
i
- 13 proceed or wait until Judge Shon--
4 14 JUDGE GLEASON: Proceed. j i
I 15 Q. On that page, Mr. Kelly, you discuss a j 16 report that you did for a project for another client I 17 based on 50 amergencies. Do you see that? i 1
18 A. (Kelly) Yes, I do.
l 19 Q. And those 50 emergencies that you !
20 looked at were based on factors such as size, type,
- 21 geographic location, proximity to nuclear power (
r 22 plants, special problems and location and type, for [
23 instance, population density. Correct? i 24 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
I When you say "special problems," what l 25 Q.
- (1)
I t
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index l l
e
..- . ~ .-. -- -. .-
19836 O' . 1 kind of problems were you looking for that would 2 include that emergency in the 50 you were looking 3 at?
4 A. (Kelly) As we were looking through 5~ some of the secondary sources we had, newspaper 6 articles and so forth at that time, we made a 7 subjective judgment as to whether this was a 8 problem-laden type of evacuation. For instance, if 9' we saw a prison was evacuated, probably we would 10 have considered that a special problem that occurred 11 that doesn't happen a lot. If a hospital was 12 relocated may or may not have made it--it depended 13 on the circumstances, really, of the article and how I
14 it was described. But it was a subjective l 15 assessment. ;
16 Q. Was school evacuation a special problem 17 that would have included one of these accidents in 18 the group?
19 JUDGE GLEASON: Would you hold it one 20 moment, please.
21 (Pause.)
22 JUDGE GLEASON: Let's continue, please.
23 MR. McMURRAY: I have a question on the 24 table.
25 JUDGE GLEASON: Do you recall the l O COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword inden
4 1983" b(x 1 question?
2 A. (Kelly) Whether schools were 3 considered--
4 Q. A particular problem, 5 A. (Kelly) I would have to say it would 6 have depended on in what circumstances or how the 7 school evacuations were described in the material we 8 were looking at. In and of itself, if it mentioned 9 school being evacuated, probably not.
10 Q. I take it you don't recall whether for 11 any particular accident school evacuation was 12 considered a problem?
13 A. (Kelly) I really can't recall; n:. .
14 Q. One of the other criterion that you 15 looked at was proximity to a nuclear power plant.
16 Why is that?
17 A. (Kelly) The client wanted to include, 18 to the extent possible, if there were any in an 19 initial set of cases, to include any evacuations 20 that may have occurred within a 10-mile EPZ and then 21 a second category was the 10 to 50 miles, just 22 really to give us an opportunity later to see what 23 effects the planning in those particular areas might 24 have had on the success of an evacuation.
25 Q. Of the 50 that you chose, how many fell O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword ind:2x
19838 1 within the 10-mile EPZ of a particular power plant?
2 A. (Crocker) As I recall, initially we 3 thought there were two or three based on the 4 readings at the time. Then as we got into more 5 detailed investigation, I think that number rose to 6 probably six.
7 Q. And eventually you narrowed the EC down 8 to 16 that included bus evacuations. Is that right?
9 A. (Kelly) That, we are kind of mixing 10 projects now. For LILCO I then did that, yes.
11 Q. Maybe it would be useful if we did step 12 back a second. On thie bottom paragraph, page 26, 13 you are discussing a project chat you did for a 14 client other than LILCO?
15 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
16 Q. And this looked at 50 evacuations.
17 Right?
18 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
19 Q. And the purpose of this study was not 20 to look at bus evacuations, right?
21 A. (Kelly) Not specifically, no.
22 Q. You were not looking at the issue of 23 role conflict among bus drivers in doing this 24 project, right?
25 A. (Kelly) Other than what I described O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index 1
19839 1 the other day.
2 Q. This project, in other words, formed 3 the data base from which you eventually did the work 4 for LILCO that we will get to later. Right?
5 A. (Kelly) That is correct, yes 6 Q. When you say that geographic location 7 was one of the factors you were looking at, did all 8 of the evacuations in your initial project for the 9 earlier client deal with emergencies in densely 10 populated areas?
11 A. (Kelly) No, they did not.
12 Could you repeat the question for me?
13 I want to make sure I have it straight, l 14 Q. It appears from your testimony that you i
15 chose only--you looked on1 at evacuations occurring 16 in densely populated areas. Is that correct?
17 A. (Kelly) No. That one--make if I could 18 back up for a moment. We looked at a number of l
19 evacuations more than 50. There were approximately 20 249. When we were narrowing that down to 50 one of 21 the factors we looked at -ss population density.
22 The way we got to the 50, the rating mechanism we I
l 23 used tended to favor cases that were in more densely l
l 24 populated areas but did not necessarily exclude 25 cases in less densely populated areas.
O COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index l
19840 s
' 1 Q. I see. To be included in the initial 2 group of 50, an accident didn't have to meet all of 3 these factors that you laid out--
4 A. (Kelly) No. Those factors were 5 considered, but the rating mechanisms that we 6 employed using those factors may or may not have 7 resulted in--well, for instance, out of the 50 only 8 six were in the EPZ. There were many others that 9 were not. Many were heavily populated areas, some 10 were not. So you have a spectrum within each of 11 those factors.
12 Q. Mr. Kelly, this is the first time you 13 have done this. You are going to have to let me 14 -finish my questions before you jump in with your 15 answers. Okay?
16 A. (Kelly) Sorry. I thought you had 17 finished.
18 Q. That's all right.
19 So I take it that, for instance, one of 20 the factors is whether the accident was quickly 21 developing, and as it turns out, not all of the 22 evacuations that you looked at were in fact quickly 23 developing, were they?
24 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
25 Q. In fact, some of the evacuations had O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19841 1 warning times of a couple of days?
2 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
3 Q. From this data base of 50, after you 4 were hired by LILCO you narrowed that down 5 approximately to 16 evacuations?
6 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
7 Q. When were you hired by LILCO?
8 A. (Kelly) Mid-January of thia year.
9 Q. What were you asked to do?
10 A. (Kelly) I was asked to look at those 11 50 cases, try to determine to the extent possible 12 with the data I had collected to that point if there 13 were any instances of buses being used and then any 14 instances of role abandonment by bus drivers.
15 Q. Put your finger on page 27 but let's go 16 to Attachment E. Attachment E is the report you 17 initially wrote for LILCO based on your view of 18 those 16 evacuations. Correct?
19 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
20 Q. And this was written by you?
21 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
22 Q. On page four of that attachment you 23 name the 16 cases that you eventually settled on .
l 24 from the 50 in your original data base. Is that 25 correct? I O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19842 1 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
2 Q. And these 16 were chosen because they 3 _ involved buses in evacuation. Correct?
4 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
5 Q. How did you know that they involved 6 buses?
7 A. (Kelly) By looking at the information 8 that we had at the time on each of those, and that 9 was page 27 of the testimony has a list of the types 10 of things we had at the time.
11 Q. Page one of the attachment also has the 12 type of information, doesn't it?
13 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
l 14 Q. So you relied solely on documentation i
15 regarding the emergency. Correct?
16 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
17 Q. Such things as newspaper clippings and 18 newspaper service articles?
l 19 A. (Kelly) That's right, and--well, in a 20 number of cases we had after-action reports from the 21 communities. One or two cases, a report produced by 22 a State agency and so forth. So in addition--the 23 bulk of it was newspaper articles from AP and UPI l 24 but then there were some other documents as well.
l I 25 Q. Let me ask you this. For how many of O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index l
t
19843 1 the evacuations that you were looking at did you 2 have other than newspaper clippings or news service 3 articles to draw from to determine whether or not 4 buses were involved?
5 A. (Kelly) I couldn't say at this point.
6 Q. I take it that it is quite possible, 7 isn't it, that there could have been buses involved 8 in evacuations other than the 16 that you settled 9 on?
10 A. (Kelly) That's correct. That's 11 correct.
12 Q. And I take it that you are not willing 13 to say that you were able to compile all the l 14 documentation that pertains to all these 15 evacuations. Is that right?
16 A. (Kelly) I don't think so, but maybe 17 because I don't understand your question.
18 Q. Well, it may be, for instance, that 19 there are police and emergency service reports that l
20 exist about these evacuations that you don't have?
21 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
22 Q. There may be communications logs you 23 don't have?
, 24 A. (Kelly) There may be.
l l 25 Q. And there may be after-action reports l (2)
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
n 19844
()
%- 1 that you don't have?
2 A. (Kelly) There may be.
3 Q. As I understand it, you eventually 4 added three evacuations to this list of 16. Is that 5 correct?
6 A. (Kelly) That's right.
7 Q. What evacuations are those?
8 A. (Kelly) I believe that would be--bear l 9 with me just a moment. I think Miamisburg was not 10 on the list. Columbus wasn't on the original 11 list--I have to compare the two lists.
12 Q. What list are you comparing? If there 13 is a list in the testimony that has it all--
14 A. (Kelly) Well, the 16 cases that are i
15 listed on page four of Appendix E I am comparing to 16 the list on page one of Appendix G. There is a t
! 17 difference of three cases, and that is the answer to l
l 18 your question.
19 Q. Okay. Do you know what the additional 20 evacuation was?
l 21 A. (Kelly) It will just take a moment.
22 Q. Could it be Superior, Wisconsin?
! 23 MR. CHRISTMAN: No. That is in the 24 Appendix E.
25 (Witnesses confer. )
O-COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index l
,- ~ , _ . - . .. - -
19845
(_J 1 A. (Kelly) Elkhart, I guess is the last 2 one.
3 Q. Elkhart, Indiana?
4 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
5 Q. Miamisburg, that is in Ohio, correct?
6 A. (Kelly) Yes, it is.
7 Q. What kind of accident was that?
8 A. (Kelly) That was a train derailment 9 involving several tankers of hazardous materials 10 which occurred over a several-day period.
11 Q. Columbus, Ohio is what kind of 12 accident?
13 A. (Kelly) Columbus, Ohio is some sort of 14 fire involving dynamite.
~
15 Q. And Elkhart, Indiana, that was what?
16 A. (Kelly) I believe that was a leaking 17 tank car from a railroad accident. It was in a rail l 18 yard.
19 Q. On page four of Attachment E you set j 20 out the number of evacuees from,these various 21 accidents in the last column. Do you see that?
22 A. (Kelly) Yes, I do.
23 Q. Now, that is not the number evacuated 24 by bus, is it?
1
- 25 A. (Kelly) No, it is not. That is the l CE) l l
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index l
19846
/~T.
\l 1 total number.
2 Q. In some cases, the number of evacuees 3 by bus was quite small, wasn't it?
4 A. (Kelly) Yes. I don't know the exact 5 percentage of evacuees offhand, yes.
6 Q. In some cases it was just two or three 7 busloads. Is that correct?
8 A. (Kelly) That's right.
9 Q. Do you have anywhere in your testimony 10 the number of evacuees by bus from these 11 evacuations?
12 A. (Kelly) Yes, I do. Appendix G, page 13 two, it shows the range, that range being from zero 14 to five to ten thousand. You might ask me--well, I 15 will let you ask the obvious question.
16 Q. Why don't you answer the obvious 17 question.
18 A. (Kelly) The zero in Pine Bluff as l 19 stated is the people, the buses were mobilized, they 20 were brought to I believe a nursing home. People
(~ 21 were loaded onto the bus and then they weren't i
l 22 actually pulled out of the area. It was everything 23 up to the actual movement out of the nursing home.
24 Q. I guess we weren't thinking of the same 25 obvious question.
O V
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index t
19847 1 You don't have an individual listing of 2 the number of bus evacuees for each' evacuation, do 3, you?
4 A. (Kelly) In the actual survey data we 5 gave you we did, and I could read that to you.
6 Q. It is not in your testimony, is it?
7 A. (Kelly) No, not for each individual ,
8 case. No.
9 Q. And in most cases, you would agree, 10 wouldn't you, that the number evacuated by bus was 11 far below five to ten thousand?
12 A. (Kelly) I believe in all but two 13 , cases, that's correct.
- 14 Q. As a matter of fact, in most of those 15 cases it was much closer to the zero range, wasn't 16 it?
17 A. (Kelly) They usually ranged in the 18 several hundred, and then as I said, a few in the 19 thousands.
l 20 Q. None of these represented an evacuation 21 of as many as 28,000 people, right?
22 A. (Kelly) No. By bus, no.
23 Q. In your table on page four you have the 24 location of all the evacuations other than the l
l 25 additional three, but you don't have the size of the
)
l COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index l
l t
19848 NJ 1 impact area there.
2 Do you have a listing of the impact 3 area for each individual evacuation that you looked 4 at?
5 A. (Kelly) Where are you looking right 6 now?
7 Q. Page four of Appendix E.
8 A. (Kelly) And the question was what was 9 the size of those areas?
10 Q. Do you have a listing of the impact 11 area for each of those individual evacuations?
12 A. (Kelly) Yes. In most cases, I have 13 that data. Yes.
14 Q. Do you have it listed in your l
I 15 testimony?
16 JUDGE GLEASON: Which data, Mr.
17 McMurray? How are you defining "impact area"?
18 MR. McMURRAY: Well, I better use the 19 definition used by Mr. Kelly.
20 Q. How did you define "impact area"? You l
! 21 asked for radius, correct?
22 A. (Kelly) Yes. No. We asked for square l
23 miles. What portion or how many square miles of the 24 community was affected by the hazard. And in most 25 cases they answered in square miles terms.
O COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index l
\
19849
(
1 Sometimes they gave me a radius, though.
2 Q. Where they gave you a radius, did you 3 turn that into square miles automatically?
4 A. (Kelly) I can do that. I have it 5 marked. It clearly says it is a radius, not a 6 square mile, so...
7 Q. I believe that--well, in your testimony 8 you don't have the impact areas for the individual 9 evacuations listed. You do have in Appendix G, the 10 note that the average impact area was only two to 20 11 square miles. Is that right?
12 A. (Kelly) In all of the cases, except
() 13 those other two, fell within that range.
I 14 Q. All the other cases fell within two co l
15 207 16 A. (Kelly) No, that is not true. I'm 17 sorry. Most of the other cases, I should say, fell 18 within that range. There were some--I can go down 19 the list if you'd like.
20 Q. Isn't it true that only two of the 21 evacuations that you looked at had an impact area l 22 larger than the 10-mile EPZ at Shoreham? And I am I
23 speaking specifically of Marysville and the 24 Pinellas, Florida evacuations.
25 A. (Kelly) I believe that is correct.
}
l l COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index l
19850
/^}
't 1 Q. In some cases, the impact areas were no 2 more than a mile or two. Correct?
3 A. (Kelly) That's correct. There were 4 many in that range, yes.
5 Q. There were many in that range.
6 At the time that you did your study and 7 before you did ycur surveys, which we will get to, l
8 did you know where the bus drivers lived who i
9 responded to these accidents, in relation to the 10 impact area?
11 A. (Kelly) Prior to the study I did not 12 know.
13 Q. Prior to your curveys which you 14 subsequently conducted, did you know where these bus 15 drivers lived in relation to the accident?
16 A. (Kelly) No, I did not.
17 Q. Prior to your surveys, did you know 18 whether any of the bus drivers' families were 19 threatened by the accident?
20 A. (Kelly) Not directly, no.
21 Q. Do you have listed in your testimony in 22 how many instances school bus drivers were used to 23 conduct evacuation as opposed to bus drivers from a 24 public transportation company that transports the 25 ' general public?
O COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index b- -
19851
/~'T -
42 1 A. (Kelly) There were a number, and I 2 don't know what the number is off the top of my 3 head. There are a number of bus drivers that we 4 used in our--that we interviewed in our bus driver 5 survey that were school bus drivers.
6 Q. Do you have a listing or have data on 7 how many of the evacuations of these 16 involved 8 school bus drivers as opposed to bus drivers for 9 public transport companies?
10 A. (Kelly) In our organizational survey 11 we asked how many schools were evacuated, so that 12 would give some indication, possibly, as to how many 13 school bus companies were involved. -
14 Q. You don't have specific data on it, 15 though, do you?
16 A. (Kelly) Only to say that in the bus 17 driver interviews that we conducted, some of those i
18 were school bus drivers.
19 Q. How many of those--well, you conducted 20 27 interviews of bus drivers?
21 A. (Kelly) That's right.
22 Q. In how many of those cases were they 23 school bus drivers?
24 A. (Kelly) I would have to look to give 25 you an accurate number.
O COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19852 1 Q. We will get to that later.
2 A. (Kelly) Okay.
3 Q. I notice that TMI is not on this list.
4 Is there a reacon for that?
5 A. (Kelly) On the list on--
6 Q. Not on the list on page four of 7 Attachment E.
8 A. (Kelly) Yes. At the time that I was 9 asked to look at the data that we had, it came from 10 this data base that we were ' collecting for the other 11 client. For the other client, we were concentrating 12 on those 50 evacuations. For that other client, we 13 had an additional requirement to look at TMI and l 14 another major evacuation, Mississaugua. But that i
i 15 fell outside the scope of the main study. They were 16 basically add-on evacuations. For instance, we were 17 only looking at evacuations that occurred in 1980 18 and beyond. Of course, those two were prior to 19 1980. And the client knew those two wouldn't meet 20 the criteria we had established so they just tacked 21 them on.
22 At the time that LILCO asked us to do 1
23 this study we had not even really begun to look at 24 that, those two cases, and that is why they weren't
! 25 included. 1
()
i COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index l
i
19853 O
s/ 1 Q. TMI involved a radiological emergency, 2 correct?
3 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
4 Q. We have heard from Dr. Mileti that 5 there was an early dismissal of schools during the 6 TMI accident. Are you aware of that?
7 A. (Kelly) Based on what Dr. Mileti said, 8 yes.
9 Q. Were you aware of that before his 10 testimony?
11 A. (Kelly) I can't recall that 12 specifically. I may have been aware of it because 13 we have looked at TMI. Another investigator was O 14 looking at it in more detail. I ju.it couldn't 15 remember.
16 Q. Did LILCO ever ask you to look at TMI 17 as an example of an incident where buses were used?
18 A. (Kelly) They didn't specifically ask 19 me to do that, no.
20 Q. Don't you think it might be a pertinent 21 inquiry to the issue here as to whether bus drivers 22 experienced any role abandonment at TMI?
23 A. (Kelly) It is possible that that is 24 pertinent. But I can only tell you how we get--why 25 we selected that data base of 50. That is what we O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION /kc +ord index
19854 f
\-)/ 1 had. LILCO asked me what we had. That is what I 2 told them. And the reason we hadn't included that, 3 it was outside the scope anyway. That was not a 4 formally ordered evacuation, as you recall, which is 5 another reason why it wasn't included in our initial 6 data base of 50, and the other client asked us to 7 tack it on. It may have been pertinent but it was 8 outside the scope of what we were asked to do.
9 Q. There is certainly no lack of articles 10 on TMI, is there?
11 A. (Kelly) I would say there has been a 12 lot written about that, yes.
13 Q. There is cortainly no lack of 14 after-action reports, are there?
15 A. (Kelly) I believe there is quite a few 16 after-action reports. Yes.
17 Q. Would it have been difficult for you 18 and your organization to contact organizational 19 representatives--strike.
20 Would it have been difficult for you to 21 contact representatives of organizations that 22 responded at TMI?
23 A. (Kelly) I don't believe it would have 24 been difficult. No.
25 Q. You did add on three accidents, didn't O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19855 1 you, in addition to the 16 that you list on page 2 four of Attachment E?
3 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
4 Q. How did you come to add those three 5 accidents?
6 A. (Kelly) Between the time that I 7 produced this report and the time that I was asked 8 to do the survey, we found out that three of--three 9 more of those 50 cases involved evacuations that 10 included buses. And so when it came time to the 11 surveys, I said, "Should we look at those?" They 12 said, "Yes."
13 Q. Now, your conclusion is based on the O 14 inquiry that you did make. You didn't find any ,
s 15 documentation that led you to believe that there was 16 , role abandonment among bus drivers. Right?
17 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
18 Q. You also come to the conclusion that .
t 19 through training and planning, role abandonment can 20 be minimized. Right?
21 A. (Kelly) That is part of the l 22 conclusion.
i 23 Q. And that is based in part on Dr. '
l l 24 Linde11's article, right, which you also quote?
25 A. (Kelly) Yes. That was used in the O
1 \-)
l COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19856 1 report.
2 Q. Now, there came a time, didn't there, 3 when you did use some more inquiry about these 19 4 accidents. Right?
5 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
6 Q. And that consisted first of a survey of 7 the organizations, some of the organizations that 8 participated in those various evacuations, right?
9 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
10 Q. Let's start with the organizational !
11 study. Okay? Let me back up a second. You did two 12 separate surveys. Right?
13 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
l 14 Q. One survey was a survey of i i
15 organizational representatives. Right?
16 A. (Kelly) That's right. '
17 Q. Not individual bus drivers?
18 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
19 Q. And the other survey you did was of at 20 least some of the bus drivers who reported to have -
21 driven in those evacuations. Right?
22 A. (Kelly) That's correct. l 23 Q. Let's concentrate for a second on that 24 first survey.
25 How did you come to conduct that first ;
(
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
_ ~ . , . . _-__ _ . _ _ _ _ _ _ , - .
19857 1 survey?
2 A. (Kelly) We were asked by LILCO to do a 3 survey of the organizations that were involved in 4 the evacuation.
5 Q. When were you asked to do that?
6 A. (Kelly) I believe it was in February.
7 Q. And it was your understanding, wasn't 8 it, that that survey was for possible use in these 9 hearings?
10 A. (Kelly) Yes.
11 Q. Let's go for a second to Attachment F.
12 Just keep your finger on page 27 as well.
13 Can you tell me what Attachment F is, 14 Mr. Kelly?
15 A. (Kelly) Attachmsnt F is the survey 16 instrument that we used to collect the data in our 17 telephone interviews.
I i
18 Q. How was the questionnaire developed?
l 19 A. (Kelly) The questionnaire was designed 20 and developed by Drs. Mileti and Lindell, 21 principally.
22 Q. Did you have any input into it?
, 23 A. (Kelly) Yes. After they developed it, l
24 I had an opportunity to look at it and comment on 25 it, but they were the principal developers.
(
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19858
- 1 Q. Did you make any changes to what Drs.
2 Mileti and Lindell did?
3 A. (Kelly) I made a recommendation that a 4 question be added to--I believe it was--let me 5 double check. Yes. A question be added to the 6 instrument, and that concerned whether or not bus 7 drivers made multiple runs into the evacuation zone.
8 Q. That was the only addition that you had 9 involvement in?
10 A. (Kelly) Other than typos or something 11 like that--
12 Q. I am talking about substantial.
13 A. (Kelly) Yes. That is the only thing I 14 thought might be necessary, 15 Q. Did you delete any of the drafts, 16 anything from the drafts that you got from Dr.
17 Mileti and--
18 A. (Kelly) I don't recall doing so.
19 Q. Was there any review of this survey 20 instrument by persons not involved in this licensing 21 proceeding?
1 22 A. (Kelly) By any of the witnesses here 23 today, do you mean?
24 Q. By anybody not involved in these 25 proceedings, either by being a witness, by being
(
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index r
l
19859 b %/ 1 counsel or by being involved with an organization of 2 which you all may be representatives.
3 A. (Kelly) Well, we did a test of the 4 survey instrument. To that extent, someone--
5 Q. You did a test?
6 A. (Kelly) Yes. We tested the survey 7 instrumert to make sure it was clear, people could 8 understand the questions and so forth.
9 Q. How did you test it?
10 A. (Kelly) We called up several 11 people--civil defense director, bus company 12 official--two civil defense officials, bus company 13 official, and then I think we called a County O 14 planner. About four or five people thtt I recall we 15 tested it on.
16 Q. Were these tests involving people who 17 actually were involved in these evacuations that 18 were studied?
19 A. (Kelly) No. They were separate.
l.
20 Q. These were different respondents?
21 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
22 Q. Their answers weren't used in your 23 ultimate tally?
24 A. (Kelly) No.
25 Q. Did you make any changes in the COMPUTER AIDED TPANSCRIPTION/ keyword index
19860 1 questionnaire based on your test?
2 A. (Kelly) All of the people that we 3 tested it on said they could understand it, 4 everything was fine. They didn't anticipate any 5 problems.
6 Q. Who administered the survey to the 7 actual respondents?
8 A. (Kelly) People at my company, Weston.
9 Q. Had these people ever done any 10 interviewing before?
11 A. (Kelly) Yes, they had.
12 Q. How much experience had they had?
13 A. (Kelly) I would say, on average, they 14 had a couple of telephone interviews. When we had 15 to perform this, I went to the operations manager of 16 my company to ask him who was available to do this 17 ,
work that had done previous telephone interviews, 18 surveys before. And he told me the names of those 19 people.
20 We had recently, sometime prior to this 21 survey, conducted a survey for the Environmental 22 Protection Agency and, I believe it was, the 23 American Petroleum Institute. I believe most of 24 those people were involved in that. There was one 25 or two that were not involved in those, and I asked O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19861 1 them if they had conducted telephone interviews 2 before and they said they had. But I can't tell you 3 what surveys those were.
4 Q. Did you supervise these individuals in 5 any way while they were making the phone calls?
6 A. (Kelly) Yes. What we did was, when we 7 all went over the survey instrument I asked them to -
8 phone one person that they knew, to practice using 9 it. We discussed what Dr. Mileti had discussed with 10 me about the way to conduct the interviews. And 11 then we got back together in the middle of the 12 ' interviews--I won't say middle. A few days later.
13 Some people hadn't been as far along as others, to 14 go over any corrections. And each day in the 15 beginning I would ask each of those people did they 16 have any problems, did any of their people 17 misundarstand the questions. Because we agreed that 18 if any one particular item or if any item seemed to 19 be confusing, that we would come up with a 20 consistent explanation. But fortunately that was 21 .not a problem.
22 Then as they completed the interviews, 23 I would generally go over it within a day or two 24 after each survey was done.
25 Q. Within a day or two?
O COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
r 19862 1 A. (Kelly) Usually. Unless I was out of 2 town or we missed--they may have been out of town.
3 Q. I take it from your answer that you 4 determined there really was no confusion in the 5 questionnaire?
6 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
7 Q. And you were satisfied with the work 8 that your interviewers did in conducting the 9 examination?
10 A. (Kelly) Yes. They got the information 11 we needed.
12 Q. And you had faith that they wrote down 13 accurately what was told to them?
O 14 A. (Kelly) Yes. They were instructed to 15 write down what was told to them. And I nave as 16 'much faith as I can, without sitting there watching 17 them, but I believe they did write down answers as 18 they received them.
19 Q. Let's go just briefly to Attachment G, 20 which we have already been looking at for a while.
21 Go to page one of that. The type of people you 22 interviewed were what you call emergency managers, 23 such as fire chiefs, police, et cetera. Correct?
24 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
25 Q. And also bus company officials, O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19863 b
O- 1 including owners, managers and dispatchers, et 2 cetera?
3 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
4 Q. That constitutes the two groups of 5 individuals you tried to talk to for these l
6 evacuations. Right?
7 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
8 Q. Now, in some cases, or at least one 9 case, you weren't cble to talk to what you call an 10 ,
emergency manager. Right?
11 A. (Kelly) That's right.
, 12 Q. In every case you were able to talk to 13 a bus company official. Right?
O 14 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
15 Q. But in a number of the evacuations more i 16 than one bus company was involved. Isn't that 17 right?
! 18 A. (Kelly) That's correc*..
19 Q. And for some of those evacuations you 3
20 weren't able to talk to representatives of all the 21 bus companies involved, were you?
22 A. (Kelly) I can't recall. You are
! 23 saying in some cases we could not interview all the
! 24 bus drivers--
25 O. No.
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index i
19864 1 A. (Kelly) All the bus company officials?
i 2 Q. In some cases, isn't it true that while 3 a bus company was involved in the evacuation, you 4 were not able to talk to a representative of that 5 ' bus company?
6 A. (Kelly) It may be, but I can't recall 7 at this moment.
8 Q. How were the names of these individuals 9 obtained?
10 A. (Kelly) Of the bus companies? I 11 Q. No. The names of the individuals who 12 you called. How were they obtained? ,
13 A. (Kelly) Well, generally, when we were 14 , speaking to the emergency manager, we would ask for 15 the name of a person at the bus company that was ,
16 used, and they' d give us the name. Often they would 17 give us the number. If they didn't know, then we'd 18 at least try to get the name of the bus company, of 19 course, and then we'd call up the bus company 20 directly and ask who might have this information.
21 Q. Let's step back a second. First you ;
22 called the emergency manager for a particular r
23 emergency?
- 24 A. (Kelly) That's correct. ,
I l 25 Q. How did you determine who the COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index t
l 19865
- 1 appropriate emergency manager was?
2 A. (Kelly) In some cases we had names 3 based on work we had done for another client. In 4 cases where we might not have the name of an 5 emergency management official, we would generally 6 try to get in touch with the emergency management 7 agency in the community, county or what have you and 8 start there and see where we got.
9 Q. You say that from them, then, you got 10 also the names of someone at one of the bus 11 companies involved?
12 A. (Kelly) Generally, that's correct, 13 yes.
14 Q. Although you can't say for sure that 15 you were able to contact all the bus companies 16 involved?
4 17 A. (Kelly) I can't--that may be true. I 18 .just can't remember if there were two companies and 19 one official in one evacuation and we only got to 20 one. I just can't recall right now, i
21 Q. Were any steps taken to try to i
22 determine how many bus companies were involved in a 23 particular evacuation?
24 A. Ms11y) As I recall, when we were 25 getting the .utbes from the bus--from the emergency A
V COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
a 19866
( 1 manager, we asked which bus companies were involved 2 and, "Do you know anyone over there we could talk to 3 that would have this information?" If he only gave 4 us the name of one company, it is possible another 5 company could have been used and we didn't know i 6 about it. So that is a possibility.
7 Q. What steps, if any, did the 8 interviewers take to assure that the bus company 9 official interviewed had knowledpa of what was being 10 asked of him?
11 A. (Kelly) Well, we asked him if he had 12 knowledge of the incident. I mean, we didn't go to 13 'a supervisor or anything like that to check, but if
, O 14 the person said, "Yes, I was involved in that," or 4
15 "I am aware of the facts of that," we'd interview 16 them. Beyond that we didn't try to confirm anything 17 else.
18 Q. For instance, you asked some pretty 19 specific information. For instance, how many people 20 live within the impact area. Right?
l 21 (Pause . )
22 Q. Isn't that one of the questions on the 23 organizational survey?
24 A. (Kelly) It is. Number six.
25 Q. How do you know whether or not the
()
o l COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19867 1 information you got was just a best guess or was 2 based on actual knowledge?
3 A. (Kelly) Generally, the person who 4 answered that question would be the emergency 5 manager. In most cases, I think that is true. A 6 few, it may not be. Those people--in any 7 ,
evacuation, in any emergency, all you have is the 8 best guess by an emergency management official. Is 9 it accurate? It is accurate to a degree because the 10 guy is familiar with his community.
11 When we give damage assessments, things 12 like that, it is always a best guess in emergency 13 response.
O 14 Q. Well, you say that that information was 15 answered by the emergency manager? How many bus 16 drivers were in the impact--
~
17 A. (Kelly) You asked how many people were 18 in the impact area, didn't you?
19 Q. If I did, then let's back up.
20 The question was asked of the bus 21 driver or bus representative, "How many of your bus 22 drivers had families in the impact area?" correct?
l 23 A. (Kelly) That is correct.
I i 24 Q. That is question 37, which actually 25 asks what percentage of the bus drivers had families O
COMPUTZR AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index l
{} 1 in the area at risk during the emergency. Right?
19868 2 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
3 Q. Now, what did you or your interviewers 4 do to assure that the information you 5 were getting was accurate as opposed 6 to just a best guess?
7 A. (Kelly) We relied on that bus company 8 official to give a knowledgeable answer, a 9- knowledgeable estimate of how many people, how many 10 of his drivers had family in the risk area, and that 11 is all we did.
12 Q. Did you ask him to check records?
() 13 A. (Kelly) No, we did not.
14 Q. In some of these cases, the accident 15 had happened several years prior to your survey.
16 Right?
17 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
I 18 Q. And you would agree, wouldn't you, that 19 there could be a substantial difference between the
! 20 actual number of people who lived in the impact area l
! 21 and the estimate that you got from your respondents.
I l 22 Isn't that correct?
l 23 A. (Kelly) I would say when you ask a 24 person--if you ask a person, a bus company official, 25 who was involved in an evacuation yesterday, he O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19869 1 would probably have a best guess that is probably as 2 good as all these best guesses. It is not something 3 you carry around on the tip of your tongue. I think 4 it is reliable within a certain degree of error. ,
5 Q. What degree of error?
6 A. (Kelly) Well, obviously, that can't be 7 answered. But I think--
8 (Witnesses confer.)
9 A. (Kelly) I am just going to have to 10 answer your question as I did earlier. If they 11 guessed five to ten percent, could there be a margin i 12 of error? Yes, there could be. But I think it is 13 still a pretty reliable piece of information.
14 Q. What assurance do you have that the l
15 . official you spoke to knew where the bus drivers 16 lived in relation to the impact?
l 17 A. (Kelly) Because he said he knew and i
l 18 that is the estimate he gave. Beyond that, I can't !
19 confirm it any more.
20 Q. A related question is did you or your 21 interviewers take any steps to assure that a 22 representative from a particular bus company was the 23 most knowledgeable person at that organization on a 24 particular incident? ,
25 A. (Kelly) As I said before, usually an COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19870 1 emergency management person would tell us who was 2 the bus company to contact. I am assuming that 3 emergency manager gave us the name of a person that 4 he has dealt with on emergency matters before and 5 therefore he probably felt they knew the most. If 6 we had to call a bus company official without any 7 references we would ask who--we'd ask for a manager, 8 generally, and ask who would have the information 9 about this, and we'd get referred to a person. I am 10 assuming the person we eventually were referred to 11 had good knowledge about that emergency evacuation.
12 Q. Did you ever ask, for instance, whether 13 anybody else in the organization had better records 14 about where people lived?
15 A. (Kelly) No.
16 O. Let's turn back a second to page 28, 17 On page 28 you give or start to give the results of
( 18 your organizational survey. Isn't that right, Mr.
- 19 Kelly?
?
i 20 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
i 21 Q. The first conclusion you draw or i 22 finding that you draw is that there were no refusals 23 to drive the buses by any notified bus drivers.
24 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
25 Q. Let me show you a document.
O COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19871 1 MR. CHRISTMAN: Other witnesses need a 4
2 copy as well.
3 MR. McMURRAY: At this time I would 4 like to have marked as Suffolk County Bus Driver 5 Exhibit No. 6 a document which is a 12-page 6 document. On the first page there is a listing of 7 information. The first bit of information is 8 "Incident, Marysville Flood." In the upper 9 right-hand corner is the notation "1 o' clock call at 10 4:00 p.n." I would like to have this marked Suffolk 11 County Bus Driver Exhibit No. 6.
12 JUDGE GLEASON: It is a document of how 13 many pages?
14 MR. McMURRAY: I believe it is 12. It 15 starts at page two and goes to 13.
16 JUDGE GLEASON: The pagins don't run 17 consecutively, but it will be so designated as l
18 Suffolk County Bus Driver Exhibit No. 6.
19 (The document referred to was 20 marked for identification as 21 Suffolk County Bus Driver Exhibit l 22 No. 6.)
23 JUDGE GLEASON: Proceed.
24 Q. Let's turn to page six of the survey.
25 Now, I would just like to state for the record, I O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19872
. 1 apologize for the quality of these copies. This is 2 how we received them from LILCO and we asked again 3 for clean copies and because of the quality of the
- 4. originals--it is not LILCO's fault--the copies are 5 not that good. Me have the originals here. LILCO 6 has brought them in case there is any question about 7 any of the handwriting on here. I think we can 8 proceed, though, without the originals, until there 9 is a question.
10 On page six the question is asked,' "Of 11 those bus drivers contacted, what percentage refused 12 to drive evacuation buses during the emergency?" Do
- 13 you see that?
14 A. (Kelly) Yes, I do.
- 15 Q. Let me back up a second. Suffolk
! 16 County Bus Driver Exhibit No. 6 is one of the survey 17 instruments.used in your survey, Right?
18 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
19 Q. And the incident that it pertains to is l
l 20 the Marysville flood. Right?
I i
21 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
I
! 22 Q. And that occurred in California?
i l 23 A. (Kelly) Yes.
24 Q. And the woman who was interviewed is 25 Alice Colbert. Is that right?
i O i
l-COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19873 1 A. (Kelly) Yea, that's correct.
2 Q. Even though it says "interviewer name,"
3 actually that is the interviewee. Right?
4 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
5 Q. And she was asked various questions 6 about the bus drivers who drove during that 7 particular evacuation. Right?
8 A. (Kelly) Right.
9 Q. Turn to page six, then. The question 10 is asked, "Of those bus drivers contacted, what 11 percentage refused to drive evacuation buses during 12 the emergency?" Do you see that?
13 A. (Kelly) Yes, I do.
14 Q. The answer is, "Two drivers, one
! 15 mechanic." Correct?
16 A. (Kelly) Yes, I believe so.
17 Q. On page 17--sorry. Question 17, the 18 question is, "Why did these drivers refuse to drive 19 evacuation buses during the emergency?" The answer 20 there is that "Their homes / families were in danger."
21 Is that right?
22 A. (Kelly) Yes. That is what it says.
23 Q. Let's go to the second survey. This is 24 a 13-page document, the first page of which states, 25 "Interview schedule, bus driver study for COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19874 1 organizational respondents." In the upper right is 2 written "Taft," T-a-f-t.
3 MR. McMURRAY: I would like this marked 4 Suffolk County Bus Driver Exhibit No. 7.
5 JUDGE GLEASON: It will be so 6 designated.
7 (The document referred to was 8 marked for identification as 9 Suffolk County Bus Driver Exhibit 10 No. 7.)
11 Q. Mr. Kelly, you have seen this document 12 before, haven't you?
23 A. (Kelly) Yes, I have.
14 Q. This is another one of the interview IS schedules prepared by people working under you, 16 ~r ight?
17 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
18 Q. In this case, the interviewer--on page 19 two, where it says "Interviewer's name: Pamela 20 Emig," that is actually one of the interviewers. Is 21 that right?
22 A. (Kelly) That is correct.
23 Q. The people who were interviewed are 24 written in handwriting at the bottom of the page.
25 Correct?
O COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19875 1 A. (Kelly) That's right.
2 Q. The person who answered questions one 3 through 18 was somebody named John Ikey, I-k-e-y, 4 Lucas, who is the emergency coordinator. Is that 5 right?
6 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
7 Q. Turn then to page six of the survey 8 instrument. Question 16 asks, "Of those bus drivers 9 contacted, what percentage refused-to drive 10 evacuation buses during the emergency?" Do you see 11 that?
12 A. (Kelly) Yes, I do.
13 Q. It says, "Two or three bus drivers."
14 Right?
15 A. (Kelly) Yes, it does.
16 Q. For question 17 it is asked, "Why did 17 these drivers refuse te drive evacuation buses 18 during the emergency?" Correct?
19 A. (Kelly) That's right.
20 Q. It states, "Frightened themselves, but 21 most importantly wanted to take care of own 22 families." Correct?
23 A. (Kelly) Yes.
24 Q. Is that written in Pam Emig's 25 handwriting?
O COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19876 1 A. (Kelly) Yes, it is.
2 Q. Let's go back to page 28--
3 MR. McMURRAY: Before we do that, at 4 this time, Judge Gleason, I would like to move 5 Suffolk County Bus Driver Exhibits 6 and 7 into 6 evidence.
7 JUDGE GLEASON: Is there objection?
8 MR. CHRISTMAN: No, sir.
9 MR. ZAMNLEUTER: No objection.
10 MS. YOUNG: No objection.
11 JUDGE GLEASON: Exhibit Nos. 6 and 7 12 will be placed in evidence.
13 (Suffolk County Bus Driver O 14 Exhibit Hos. 6 and 7 were 15 received in evidence.)
16 Q. The next item says that "All bus 17 drivers reported for duty after being contacted."
18 Do you see that?
19 A. (Kelly) Yes, I do.
20 Q. Isn't it true that in at least one case 21 and perhaps more, while some bus drivers reported 22 for duty, they left to go take care of their 23 families?
24 A. (Kelly) After reporting to duty they 25 left?
O COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19877 1 Q. After reporting to duty.
2 A. (Kelly) As I recall, in one case--it 3 may have been Marysville--
4 (Witnesses confer.)
5 A. (Kelly) As I recall, there was at 6 least one case where they let people go home 7 afterwards, after th', had reported.
8 Q. And they let them go home to take care 9 of their families. Right?
10 A. (Kelly) I'd have to look at the exact 11 reason, but it had something to do with the hazard.
12 If people wanted to go--I think one percent of the 13 people chose to go home at that point. It may have 14 been that reason.
15 Q. You don't recall?
16 A. (Kelly) Not of fhand, no. I have to 17 look.
18 Q. Do you know whether those were the one 19 percent whose family lived in the impact area?
20 A. (Kelly) Well, if that was the reason, 21 one could assume that they went home because they 22 lived in the impact area. As I said, I'd have to 23 look at that particular case.
24 MR. McMURRAY: Judge Gleason, this is 25 probably a good time for the break if you want to O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19878 1 take it.
2 JUDGE GLEASON: All right. We will 3 take a five-minute break.
! 4 (Brief recess.)
5 JUDGE GLEASON: Proceed, Mr. McMurray.
6 BY MR. McMURRAY:
7 Q. Let's go to the bottom of page 28, the 1
8 last line item there, Mr. Kelly. There you report 9 three cases where bus drivers were reported to have 10 arrived late for duty. Correct?
11 A. (Kelly) That's right.
12 Q. And in one case, that was due to 13 traffic congestion. Right?
14 A. (Kelly) That's right.
15 Q. You report that based on your 16 corrections of the other day, that one of the bus 17 companies in the Pinellas, Florida incident reported 18 that about 10 of their bus drivers showed up late 19 because they first helped to take care of their 20 families?
21 A. (Kelly) It was 10 percent, which was 22 about--
23 Q. What did I say? 10 drivers?
24 A. (Kelly) 10 drivers.
25 Q. 10 percent. And that 10 percent is O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19879 1 about 20 drivers?
2 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
3 Q. Isn't it true that another bus company 4 involved in the Pinellas incident also reported that 5 its drivers reported late?
6 A. (Kelly) I don't believe so. I' d have 4
7 to look at the particular document that you are 8 referring to. I thought it was that one bus 9 company.
10 MR. McMURRAY: Let me hand out another 11 one of the survey instruments. This is a 12-page 12 document. It starts on page two. The incident that 13 is reported is Hurricane Elena. Location is 14 Pinellas County, Florida. Where it says 15 "Interviewer name," it is actually the interviewee.
16 It is David R. Bilodeau, B-i-1-o-d-e-a-u.
17 I would like this document marked as 18 Suffolk County Bus Driver Exhibit No. 8 for i 19 identification.
20 JUDGE GLEASON: It will be so marked.
l l 21 (The document referred to was 22 marked for identification as 23 Suffolk County Bus Driver Exhibit 1
24 No. 8.)
l 25 Q. Mr. Kelly, have you~seen this document l
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index 1
19880 O 1 before?
2 A. (Kelly) Yes, I have.
3 Q. This is one of your survey instruments, 4 correct?
5 A. (Kelly) Yes, it is.
6 Q. Actually, Mr. Bilodeau was one of the 7 people interviewed, right?
8 A. (Kelly) Yes, he was.
9 Q. He was not a bus company official but 10 rather the director of emergency management?
11 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
12 Q. Let's go to page seven of the document.
13 Let me ask you first, as director of emergency 14 management for Pinellas County, what were Mr.
15 Bilodeau's duties during the time of Hurricane 16 Elena?
17 A. (Kelly) I'd have to answer that on the 18 basis of what most emergancy--county emergency 19 managers would do. They would be in charge of 20 coordinating the emergency response, probably from 21 the emergency operations center in that community.
22 Q. Hero, he is one of the people that you 23 assumed had r : curate information about the accident.
24 Right? Not the accident, but about the disaster?
25 A. (Kelly) Yes, that's correct.
O COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19881 1 Q. On page seven, question 22 asks the 2 question, "Of those bus drivers contacted, who did 3 show up to drive evacuation buses? What percentage 4 showed up late?" Do you see that?
5 A. (Kelly) 'le s , I do.
6 Q. The percentage given there is "UK," for 7 unknown. Right?
8 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
9 Q. Then it goes on to say, however--and on 10 the copies everyone has this is sort of blurry, but 11 I have looked at the originals and I will read what 12 I have seen and you can correct me if I am wrong, 13 Mr. Kelly. It says after that, though, "But some 14 problems since dispatch took three hours. Normal is 15 30 minutes."
16 Is that what that says?
17 A. (Kelly) Yes.
18 Q. Question 23 asks, "Why did those 19 drivers show up late?" And below it, and again this 20 is blurred, I will read what the original says. It 21 says, "Odd hour of notice / tending to personal 22 business." Right?
23 A. (Kelly) Yes. He was apparently 24 referring to that other company that I just 25 mentioned.
O COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
l 19882 1 Q. You say "apparently." Do you know that 2 he was referring to the other company?
1 3 A. (Kelly) Well, the point was we talked I
4 to the companies themselves, and the one reported 5 that 10 percent. And this person is referring to 6 bus drivers that he knew to have shown up late. The
[ *) natural assumption is that it is that company. It 8 wouldn't be a separate company.
9 Q. It took dispatch of those buses three 10 hours whereas the normal was 30 minutes. Right?
11 A. (Kelly) That is what he reports.
12 Q. Wasn't there another example, Mr.
13 Kelly, where 75 percent of one bus company's 14 personnel were reported to have arrived late?
- 15 A. (Kelly) I don't recall that at all.
1 16 There was a case in Miamisburg, which is in my d
17 testimony. I don't think it was that many. I don't 18 believe so.
19 Q. I am referring to the Pinellas County l 20 incident.
21 Let me show you another document. This 22 is a 13 page document, also an interview schedule.
23 The first page says, "Interview schedule, bus driver 24 study for organizational respondents." The second 25 page notes that the incident is Hurricane Elena.
O COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19883 1 The location is Pinellas County, Florida. Where it 2 says "Interviewer name," the interviewee is noted as 3 Larry C. Newman.
4 HR. McMURRAY: I would like to have 5 this document marked Suffolk County Bus Driver 6 Exhibit No. 9 for identification.
7 JUDGE GLEASON: It will be so 8 designated.
9 (The document referred to was 10 marked for identification as 11 Suffolk County Bus Driver Exhibit 12 No. 9.)
13 Q. Have you seen this document before, Mr.
14 Kelly?
15 A. (Kelly) Yes, I have.
16 Q. Mr. Newman is identified as the 17 interviewee here. Correct?
18 A. (Kelly) That's right.
19 Q. Is he with a different company from the 20 company that reported the 10 percent arriving late?
21 A. (Kelly) Yes, he is, I believe. Yes.
22 Q. As a matter of fact, he is the 23 executive director of the--I think it says Sun Coast 24 Transit Authority. Is that right?
25 A. (Kelly) Yes.
O COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
l 19884 1 Q. Let's go to page eight of the exhibit.
2 It says, "Did any evacuation bus drivers help to 3 evacuate their families before showing up for duty 4 to drive evacuation buses?" Do you see that?
5 A. (Kelly) Yes.
6 Q. There are two answers given?
7 A. (Kelly) Yes.
8 Q. There is an "X" that says, "No, none in 9 low-lying area, none with need to move family."
10 Do you see that?
11 A. (Kelly) Yes, I do.
12 Q. But also it says 75 percent helped to 13 secure family possessions. Do you see that?
14 A. (Kelly) Yes, I do. The reason is 15 fairly obvious to me. If you want me to provide 16 some explanation in answer to question 22, he said 17 no one showed up late and there there is obviously 18 notes about what people were doing. If you refer to 19 question number 15, there were a lot of people out 20 of town for the weekend, off day for operatives.
21 Obviously, in my opinion since he 22 answered "No, no one showed up late," he was 23 referring to these other people who were either out 24 of town for the weekend or helping to secure the
< 25 family, that they couldn't get in touch with. It is O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19885 ;
i a little unclear exactly, but that is the conclusion f i
2 I came to on this case, where he clearly, without f i
3 any notes, said no one showed up late. l l
4 Q. Was thero a matter cleared up by the !
\
5 interviewee with the respondent--sorry. By the l l
G interviewer? }
t' 7 A. No. That is my explanation.
i 8 Q. Your interpretation of this? !
9 A. (Kelly) That's correct. [
i 10 Q. You didn't go'back and call Mr. Newman [ r 11 about this? [
t 12 A. (Kelly) No, I did not. [
i 13 Q. Isn't it true also that in some other ;
O 14 cases respondents that you spoke to didn't know 15 whether bus drivers arrived late or not? [
16 A. (Kelly) I'm sorry. Can you-- ,
17 Q. Isn't it true--I will restate it--that i 18 some of the other respondents that you and your ;
t i
19 people spoke to did not know whether or not bus 20 drivers arrived late? ,
21 A. (Kelly) As I recall, there was !
22 maybe--well, at least one other case where people l 23 didn't provide an answer, as I recall. Lidn't know. }
24 Q. Was it only one or tas it more? !
25 A. (Kelly) It may have been more. I can l COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index [
I t
19886 1 look through and find out but--
2 Q. When you say they didn't provide an 3 answer, you mean it wasn't answered at all?
4 A. (Kelly) I' d have to look.
5 Q. For instance, some of them said they 6 don't know. Right?
7 A. (Kelly) I'd have to look right now.
8 They didn't know or didn't provide an answer, which 9 would indicate to me they didn't know.
10 Q. You are unable to say at this time how 11 many either didn't know or didn't provide an answer?
12 A. (Kelly) Right. I could look if you q 13 would like me to.
C/
14 Q. Maybe we can save that for the lunch 15 break.
16 Let's go to page 29. There it says, 17 the first bullet says, "After receiving the duty 18 call, only three to five bus drivers in one event.
19 Miamisburg, helped evacuate their families before 20 showing up for duty." Do you see that?
21 A. (Kelly) Yes, I do.
22 Q. But it is true, isn't it, that in the 23 document we have marked as Suffolk County Bus Driver 24 Exhibit 9 for identification, there, 75 percent was 25 stated to help secure their family possessions.
O COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
1 l
1 Right?
2 A. (Kelly) What was the name of the 3 incident on that exhibit?
4 Q. That is Mr. Newman in Pinellas County. ;
5 A. (Kelly) Okay. And your question was?
6 Q. The question was, isn't it true that we 7 just saw from that exhibit that 75 percent helped to 8 secure their family possessione before showing up 9 for duty to drive evacuation buses?
10 A. (Kelly) It didn't say that they were 11 evacuating their families.
12 Q You are drawing a distinction between l
13 those who evacuated their families and those who 14 merely took the time to secure possessions. Right?
15 A. (Kelly) On that question, I am. We i
i 16 asked very specifically to any bus driver who helped 17 to evacuate the family before showing up for duty.
18 Q. Do you state in your testimony how many 19 bus drivers helped secure family possessions or do
! 20 other things that might delay their arrival prior to 21 reporting for duty?
22 A. (Kelly) Well, there were other things.
23 If you look at question 22, it asks how many were 24 late. 24 talks about did they arrive late because 25 of concern for the safety of their family. It also, O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19888 1 in 23, asks why did those drivers show up. It asks 2 for the length of time on 25. 26 asked if the 3 reason was for evacuation. Here, in this particular 4' case you are referring to, they clearly say "secure 5 family possessions," which is not evacuate. I am 6 not sure why the person wrote it in that particular 7 space, but it is clear they didn't help them 8 evacuate.
9 Q. So, there are other things that a bus 10 driver might do besides reporting for duty or 11 evacuating. Right?
I 12 A. (Kelly) That is correct.
13 Q. For instance, taking time to secure l
14 family possessions. Right?
15 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
16 Q. In how many instances do you know 17 where, in your surveys, did respondents state that 18 the first thing done before reporting for duty was 19 to secure family possessions?
20 MR. CHRISTMAN: Objection.
l l 21 Q. Or take care of the heme?
i 22 HR. CHRISTMAN: The issue here is rolo 23 conflict. I think Mr. McMurray is asking about 24 other reasons one might be delayed in reporting for i
25 duty.
(
l COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
> 19889 1 MR. McMURRAY: Absolutely not.
2 JUDGE GLEASON: We are trying to 3 clarify what the reasons were, so proceed, lJ
.4 (Witnesses confer.)
5 JUDGE GLEASON: Is there a question 6 pending?
7 MR. McMURRAY: I thought there was. I
- 8 thought you were going to supplement your answer.
9 WITNESS KELLY: Could you ask me the 10 question again, please?
11 (Record Road.)
12 A. (Kelly) They could have provided an 13 answer like that in a number of different l 14 categories. They could have written it after number 15 22 or number 23 or in clarifying number 24. So, I
~
16 would need a few minutes to go through and look for 17 that reason.
18 Q. Let's not take time for that now.
19 You make the statement in that first 20 bullet on page 29 that in only one event, l 21 Miamisburg, did people help evacuate their families 22 before showing up for duty, but isn't it true you 23 have already stated that in Pinellas County 10 24 percent from one bus company were late because they 25 were first taking care of their family?
O COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
l i
19890
( l A. (Kelly) Taking care of the families.
2 They didn't say evacuating the families.
3 Q. You mean because the words written down 4 were "taking care of family," you made a distinction 5 between taking care and evacuating?
6 A. (Kelly) The fact of the matter is I 7 couldn't say "evacuate" if they said "taking care of 8 the family." They could have been boarding up the 9 house, which many people do. There were a number of 10 explanations or reasons for that, I could not 11 clearly say they evacuated those families. That is 12 ' all.
13 Q. You seem to be making the assumption, 14 though, that they did not evacuate the family.
15 A. (Kelly) That is because all I can say 16 is what is said on the form, and that was "take care 17 of families," as I recall. But I don't know what 18 "takes care of families" means.
19 Q. It could mean evacuate, couldn't it?
20 A. (Kelly) But when we are talking 21 about--it is possible it could have meant that, yes.
22 Q. You didn't ask your interviewer to go 23 back and find out "what take care of family" means, 24 did you?
25 A. (Kelly) Did we pull out that form?
O COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19891 1 Q. That is not an exhibit yet.
2 A. (Kelly) The 10 percent--
3 Q. The 10 percent is not an exhibit yet.
4 We can make it an exhibit.
5 A. (Kelly) I think--well, I will wait for 6 the exhibit.
7 MR. McMURRAY: At this time I will hand 8 out a 13 page document which says on the front 9 "Interview schedule, bus driver survey for 10 organizational respondents." In the upper 11 right-hand corner it says "Jim Gray, Pinellas School i
12 Transportation," and something that is obscured.
13 I would like to have this document 14 marked as Suffolk County Bus Driver Exhibit No. 10 15 for identification.
16 JUDGE GLEASON: It will be so 17 designated.
18 (The document referred to was 19 marked for identification as 20 Suffolk County Bus Driver Exhibit 21 No. 10.)
22 A. (Kelly) I can answer your previous 23 question morn clearly now if you'd like.
24 Q. You have seen Suffolk County Exhibit 25 No. 10 before, Mr. Kelly?
O COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index l
19892
(
1 A. ( elly) Yes, I have.
2 Q. This is responded to by a man named Jim 3 Gray. Correct?
4 A. (Kelly) Yes, it is.
5 Q. And he is, as it says on page two, the 6 director of transportation, Pinellas County School 7 Board?
8 A. (Kelly) That's right.
9 Q. On page seven, in answer to question 10 22, it is asked, "Of these bus drivers contacted who 11 did show up to drive evacuation buses, what 12 percentage showed up late?" The answer is 10 13 percent. Right?
14 A. (Kelly) That's right.
15 Q. And the answer for why they showed up 16 late is "Taking care of family," correct?
17 A (Kelly) Right.
18 Q. This is the incident that you do cite 19 in your testimony. Correct? You cite this on the 20 previous page, right?
21 A. (Kelly) Yes, on the previous page, in l 22 reference to the bullet that you asked me about, 23 about evacuation, I said--
24 Q. But you don't cite it with respect to 25 the statement at the top of page 29, that after A
U COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index L _._.__ .. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
19893
(~)
(d 1 receiving the duty call only three to five bus 2 drivers in one event, Miamisburg, helped evacuate 3 their families, correct?
4 A. (Kelly) That's correct, because they 5 answered "no" to number 26, and that is why I 6 assumed "taking care of the family" meant something 7 other than evacuating the family.
8 Q. And what did you do to assure yourself 9 that in fact, other than that, that "taking care of 10 family" meant something other than evacuating, meant 11 something other than just securing the family or 12 help secure the house?
13 A. (Kelly) Since there was no comment 14 about it, it seems to be very clear that it was not 15 to help evacuate the family. That in all I felt I 16 needed. It was pretty clear to me.
17 Q. Did anyone call Mr. Newman back to try 18 to find out exactly what he meant by "taking care of 19 family"?
20 A. (Kelly) No.
21 Q. You state that in nine of the 22 evacuations, five percent to 100 percent of the 23 drivers had families in the area at risk during the 24 emergency. Do you see that?
25 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
O COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19894 1 Q. And that means, then, that, since you 2 had 19 evacuations you looked at, in 10 of those 3 incidents the bus drivers didn't even have any 4 family in the impact area. Right?
5 A. (Kelly) They either didn't have family 6 or an answer wasn't provided to that question. They 7 didn't know.
8 Q. Then you say five percent to 100 9 percent of the drivers had families in the area at 10 risk in those nine evacuations you cite. Right?
11 A. (Kelly) That's right.
12 Q. That is a fairly large range, Mr.
13 Kelly. Which of the emergencies was 100 percent?
14 A. (Kelly) I believe that was in the 15 Woodburn, Hicksville incident.
16 Q. The Woodburn, Hicksville incident?
17 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
18 Q. How many buses were involved in that?
! 19 How many bus drivers?
20 A. (Kelly) Ten. There were 10 buses used 21 so I am assuming there were 10 bus drivers.
22 Q. Isn't it true in that incident that 23 some of the respondents reported doing something to 24 secure their family before they reported?
25 A. (Kelly) Yes. I would like to take a COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19895 1 look at that because I think in that case, as I 2 recall, this person helped evacuate his family prior 3 to being notified to report to work. But I think if 4 we looked at that, that would clarify that matter.
5 Q. But nevertheless, you included that 6 among those you state did not help evacuate the 7 family before showing up for duty. Right?
8 A. (Kelly) Because the statement says 9 "after receiving the duty call." This person hadn't 10 received the duty call, as I recall.
11 Q. You are making a distinction between 12 whether the notice to--whether the evacuation that
- 13 was performed of family units occurred before or V
14 after the duty call. Right?
15 A. (Kelly) For this matter, you would 16 have to.
17 Q. In that incident, isn't it true that 18 there was time to evacuate the family before the 19 duty call?
20 A. (Kelly) There obviously was some time 21 between the time he evacuated his family and the 22 duty call came in. The point is, my statement said 23 after receiving a duty call, after he had been 24 informed that they wanted him to drive a bus, he had 25 evacuated his family and that was an important--
O ,
CO! OUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19896 1 Q. Let's back off of that. We will come 2 back to it.
3 For a number of the incidents, I think 4 we already established, you called more than one bus 5 company. Right?
6 A. (Kelly) Yes.
7 Q. Isn't it true that various bus 8 companies gave you different figures for the number 9 of drivers who were at risk or whose families were 10 at risk?
11 A. (Kelly) Yes, I believe so.
12 Q. For instance, I have looked at the fs 13 Marysville surveys and I see that one person said l
(-) 14 that nobody was at risk. Another said 25 percent 15 were at risk. Another said two out of 23 were at i
16 risk. Another said zero at risk and another one I
17 stated that 90 percent were at risk.
18 Now, you can accept that or check my 19 figures yourself, but let's assume for the moment 20 that those are right.
- 21 How did you determine for the purposes l
l 22 of tallying up the responses whether or not you 23 considered that evacuation to have =ero drivers at 1
( 24 risk or 90 percent at risk or something in between?
l l 25 A. (Kell ii I think I p.robably looked at
(
l COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index L
4 19897 1 the percentages, as opposed to the number of drivers 2 and--
3 (Witnesses confer. )
4 A. (Kelly) I think my--it is hard for me 5 to recall at this point, but I think I looked at the 6 percentages--it is hard- I'd have to look at the 7 figures and the numbers to tell you exactly why--how 8 I came up with that because I can't recall whether I 9 just did it by bus company or added them all 10 together to come up with a percentage. I just can't 11 recall at this point.
12 Q. Did you actually do the tallying of--
13 A. (Kelly) I did. I just can't recall 14 th;.c . T* I could look at your figures, I could give 15 you an answer in a moment.
16 Q, I am giving you the figures for all the l
17 Marysville respondents. Don't do it now. Let's do 18 it at lunch. We can come back to it after lunch.
19 The figures I gave you, by the way, are those 20 drawn--I can read them again, but why don't you just 21 look at the Marysville surveys and we can come back t
22 and talk about that.
23 You state in the next bullet down that
(
l 24 there were no reports of bus drivers not doing their l
25 job as well as they could have. Do you see that?
O COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index l
l
19898
/~T-(_/ 1 A. (Kelly) Yes, I do.
2 Q. And that was despite the fact that at 3 least in some of these emergencies that we have seen 4 either some bus drivers did not report or reported 5 late. Right? That is still in light of those data, 6 right?
7 A. (Kelly) That's correct. That was 8 derived from the question, "What percentage of the 9 drivers who actually did drive evacuation buses did 10 not do their jobs as well as they could have?"
11 Q. So that some of the respondents 12 reported that drivers may have arrived late, for 13 instance, but nevertheless reported that there were 14 no reports of bus drivers not doing their job as 15 well as they could have. Is that right?
16 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
17 Q. In the next bullet down you state that 18 in seven of the 19 evacuations bus drivers did not 19 know beforehand that they had an emergency role. Do 20 you see that?
21 A. (Kelly) Yes, I do.
22 Q. In any of those emergencies, did the 23 drivers have families inside the impact area? Do 24 you know right now?
25 A. (Kelly) Yes. I believe there were l
(
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index I _-
E 19899 (3
\> 1 five families who knew they had--five families of 2 bus drivers who knew they had roles that were 3 located--some percentage of those drivers had 4 families in the risk area.
5 Q. I am not sure we are communicating.
- ~
6 In this bullet you are talking about 7 bus drivers who didn't know beforehand that they had 8 an emergency role. Right?
9 A. (Kelly) That's right.
10 Q. Of those who didn't know they had an 11 emergency role--
't 12 A. (Kelly) Who did not know they had an 13 emergency role?
14 Q. Wh- did not know they had an emergency 15 role, how many had family inside the impact area at 16 the time of the impact?
17 A. (Kelly) Let me give you a complete
? ?
i 18 answer so you know I answered correctly. There were 19 four bus drivers who did not know they had a role in 20 the emergency prior to the emergency that did have
[
21 families in the risk area, in the impact area.
l 22 Q. Are you basing that on your bus driver
- i
- 23 survey or your organizational survey?
I l 24 A. (Kelly) Organizational.
l 25 Q. Could you state that for me again?
CE) l t
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index l
19900
T 1 A. (Kelly) Sure. There were four cases 2 where the response was no, they did not know they 3 had a role in the , emergency where some of those bus 4 drivers had families in the impact area.
5 Q. At the time of the impact?
6 A. '(Kelly) Let me double check how the 7 question was worded. It was number 37, what I am 8 looking at.
9 Q. 37 on any one of these surveys we have 10 introduced at exhibits.
11 A. (Kelly) The question read, "What 12 percentage of these potential bus drivers had 13 families in the area at risk during the emergency?"
14 And there were a number. Of that, in four cases 15 people did not know they had a role prior to the 16 emergency that did have families in the risk area at 17 the time of the emergency.
18 Q. In those cases, how many instances were 19 there in which drivers either showed up late or did 20 something before reporting?
21 A. (Kelly) One--in one case, the 22 Marysville case, there was one or two drivers I 23 believe showed up late. That was--one of four is 24 the answer.
25 Q. Marysville, some didn't show up at all.
O COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19901 O
M 1 Right?
2 A. (Kelly) In the Marysville, as I 3 recall, there were two drivers who physically 4 couldn't show up because the bridge was out or 5 something like that. What they did instead was they 6 proceeded to a nursing home and helped them 7 evacuate. They just physically couldn't show up, 8 not that they chose not to show up, as I recall.
9 Q. Let's look for a minute at Suffolk 10 County Exhibit 6, which has beqn received as an 11 exhibit. On page six, two drivers, one mechanic 12 didn't report because their homes and families were 13 in danger. That is what it says there. Isn't that 14 right?
15 A. (Kelly) Could you just tell me the 16 name on the front because I didn't mark them with 17 the exhibit number?
l 18 Q. Yes. That is Alice Colbert, Marysville 19 flood.
20 A. (Kelly) On page six?
l 21 Q. Page six. We have gone over this i 22 before. On page six, the answer to question 16 23 is--the question is, "Of those bus drivers 24 contacted, what percentage refused to drive 25 evacuation buses during the emergency?" The answer O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index i
19902
( 1 is, "Two drivers, one mechanic." Right?
2 A. (Kelly) Right.
3 Q. Number 17, the reason given is, "Their 4 homes / families were in danger." Isn't that right?
5 A. (Kelly) Right. In that particular 6 case they were not actually called'in to drive the 7 evacuation buses because their homes were in danger.
. 8 Q. That is not what that says here. It I
9 says, "Of those contacted, what percentage 10 refused"--refused- "to drive evacuation buses during 11 the emergency?" It says, "Two drivers and one 12 mechanic," right?
13 A. (Kelly) Right. When I was preparing O 14 the testimony and going through the data, and l
l 15 obviously this and I think one other case were the l
16 other places where there was a possibility of role 17 abandonment. So I called Alice Colbert to get the l
l 18 details of why these people abandoned their role, 19 because obviously that was of interest to the study.
l 20 She said to me that she thought she had made it 21 clear to the intervietter that they had not actually 22 called those people because they were in the risk 23 area. So, in fact, they did not abandon their role.
24 They were just never called to perform the bus 25 driver function.
(^)
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index 1
19903 I (- 1 Q. You mean, it says here that these o 2 were--those drivers were contacted but now you are !
l 3 saying those drivers weren't contacted?
)
4 A. (Kelly) The woman--when I called and j 5 said, "I have a report that two or three of your 6 people did not show up and it was because their 4 7 families had homes in the danger area," she said, "I 8 tried to make this clear to your interviewer. We 9 didn't call them because we knew their homes were in 10 the danger area."
11 Q. Did you talk to the person who did the 12 interview about this?
13 A. (Kel.' y) Yes, I did. I asked her if
_s) 14 she knew, and she didn't recall anything like that.
l 15 Q. She didn't recall that?
! 16 A. (Kelly) She just wasn't sure.
i 17 Q. You said before that you had. faith that 18 what was written down here on these interview sheets 1
19 was accurate.
20 A. (Kelly) I did. And when it came time 21 to prepare testimony--after I prepared this the l
l 22 first--a day or two after it was done, I looked at i
23 that and there was one other case where--the other l 24 one you mentioned, Taft. I said, "Good, there is at 1
25 least two examples." That was not bothersome to me O
! COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index l
19904 1 in any way. When it came time to prepare the 2 testimony, I obviously needed more explanation so 3 then I called them. Intellectual curiosity.
4 Q. You are saying you called--
5 A. (Kelly) I believed what they said. I 6 was just calling to get more information. At that 7 time they denied it happened. That is all.
8 Q. Who did this interview?
9 A. (Kelly) That was a person named John r 10 Klucsik.
11 Q. John Klucsik didn't get the information l 12 right, did he?
13 JUDGE GLEASON: Excuse me, Mr. Kelly.
O 14 Whom did you call?
15 WITNESS KELLY: I called Alice Colbert, 16 the person who was interviewed.
17 JUDGE GLEASON: You said you called 18 them?
19 WITNESS KELLY: Sorry. I called her.
20 I called to get an explanation. I 21 assumed the information was correct as I assumed all 22 the information was correct. And she said that that 23 wasn't the case, that the interviewer apparently 24 misunderstood or didn't write down completely or 25 what have you in this one case.
O COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19905 1 Q. How do you know it was just this one 2 case? How do you know Mr. Klucsik didn't put down 3 incorrect information in other places?
4 A. (Kelly) Well, I already told you how 5 we went through our quality control and how assured 6 I was the accurate was data (sic). There is always 7 the possibility of error. In the information in 8 these two cases, I thought it was important to finc 9 out the reasons why there was role abandonment so I 10 called. So I happened to find out that they were 11 wrong in this case.
12 Q. Did you go back and call the people who 13 stated there wasn't role abandonment to find out O 14 whether or not your interviewer had--
15 A. (Kelly) I hadn't called anyone where 16 there was role--I called the two cases where there 17 was a possibility where role abandonment occurred.
18 There was only the two cases. Everywhere else there 19 was not a potential for it.
20 Q. After finding out that Mr. Klucsik did j 21 not get this particular answer right, did you go 22 back and check any other of Mr. Klucaik's work?
23 A. (Kelly) I checked through all of the i
24 work. I made two follow-up calls on the two most 25 important pieces of information and that is all--
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19906
( 1 Q. And when you found out Mr. Klucsik 2 hadn't gotten it right, did you then go back and 3 check all of his work after that?
4 A. (Kelly) Did I re phone the person is 5 what you are asking?
6 Q. Did you do anything to assure yourself 7 after that that Mr. Klucsik had done his job 8 correctly?
9 A. (Kelly) No. I don't think one error 10 like that is indicative of major problems all over.
11 Q. This is an important issue in the 12 testimony, isn't it?
13 A. (Kelly) That is why I called to O 14 clarify that.
15 Q. But you didn't call up to clarify 16 instances where people may have stated that there 17 wasn't role abandonment, did you?
18 A. (Kelly) No. I didn't recall everyone 19 that had been interviewed.
20 Q. When did you call Ms. Colbert?
21 A. (Kelly) I believe it was late March, 22 possibly. We were--I was preparing to write the 23 testimony and I believe that was late March.
24 Q. Your survey data was provided to the 25 Governments, wasn't it, your survey questionnaires, O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19907
( 1 is that right?
2 A. (Kelly) Provided to whom?
3 Q. Suffolk County and the State. Isn't 4 that right?
5 A. (Kelly) These forms--yes. The lawyers 6 apparently provided that to you.
7 Q. When you made your second survey of 8 Mrs. Colbert, did you write anything down?
9 A. (Kelly) Well, I didn't go through the 10 survey again. I, in preparing the testimony, I 11 called to ask for an explanation, a more detailed 12 explanation of why these people hadn't reported.
13 Q. Did you write down a new answer to this I
() 14 question?
15 A. (Kelly) In this case, I did write the 16 comment in the column.
17 Q. But that information was not passed on 18 to Suffolk County or New York State. Is that right?
19 A. (Kelly) I don't know. I mean, this I 20 got from you. I am assuming that you had that. You l 21 just handed this to me.
l 22 Q. I didn't hand that to you.
23 A. (Kelly) This is one of your exhibits.
24 MR. CHRISTMAN: It is a Suffolk County 25 exhibit?
O l
j COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index l
i 19908
((3 _/ 1 A. (Kelly) I don't know if you had it or 2 not but I got this from you.
3 Q. You called Ms. Colbert and what did you 4 ask her?
5 A. (Kelly) I said--I said who I was. I 6 said that I was going over the data and I said it 7 was interesting to me that--I am paraphrasing.
8 Obviously I can't remember exactly. I said, "It was 9 recorded on our form that there wers two or three 10 drivers or two drivers and one mechanic that refused 11 to work and, apparently, because their homes and 12 families were in danger." And I asked her if she 13 could provide any additional information about that.
O 14 And she responded that that was not the case, that 15 those--there were two or three of her people that 16 had families in the area and that is why they didn't 17 call. And she said, "I thought I made that clear to 18 the original interviewer."
19 Q. That may be an indication that the 20 questionnaire was unclear, isn't it, Mr. Kelly?
21 A. (Kelly) If it is, that is the only 22 time it showed up and I never heard of any other 23 problem.
24 Q. On the Taft--
25 A. (Kelly) As I recall, she didn't say O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
f 19909 (O
_/ 1 she didn't understand the question. She thought 2 that she had answered it in this way to begin with.
3 So I don't think that is a reflection on the 4 question itself.
5 Q. It may be a reflection on the 6 interviewer, right?
7 A. (Kelly) He may have missed putting in 8 a couple of the words. That's correct.
9 Q. Let's go to the Taft. Since you stated 10 you made another call on the Taft accident, let's go 11 through there. That is Suffolk County Exhibit 7.
! 12 Mr. Kelly, let me ask you, did your 13 interviewers know what the purpose of the study was?
O 14 A. (Kelly) Yes. I mean, we had a meeting 15 prior to this and I discussed with them that--well, l
l 16 that I had a client who asked us to do this. We l
l 17 went over the survey. I think they understood the 18 purpose of the survey was to collect information 19 about bus drivers and how they responded.
20 Q. And they understood that this was with l
21 respect to the issue of role conflict or role 22 abandonment. Is that right?
23 A. (Kelly) Yes.
24 I believe I--I probably told them that l 25 the issue dealt with role conflict, should people 1
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index l
l -
~
19910
/~T
(/ 1 stay with their families or would they--abandon 2 their roles or help their family. Briefly, I 3 describad the issue to them, yes.
4 Q. On page six, of Suffolk County Bus 5 Driver Exhibit 7, there it says two or three bus 6 drivers refused to drive evacuation buses because 7 they were frightened themselves, but most important, 8 they wanted to take care of their own families. Do 9 you see that?
10 A. (Kelly) Yes, I do.
11 Q. Apparently you made another call about 12 that. Correct?
13 A. (Kelly) Yes, I did.
O 14 Q. Apparently you have drawn the 15 conclusion that there was no refusal to report 16 there. Is that right?
17 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
18 Q. What is the basis for your conclusion?
19 A. (Kelly) I called the person, John Ikey 20 Lucas. He was not there, but Peggy--I can't 21 remember--no, it wasn't Peggy. What was the woman's 22 name? Could I pull that out, that document? I may 23 have notes on it.
24 Q. Suffolk County Exhibit 7, it is the 25 only one dealing with the Taft, Louisiana chemical O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19911 O(_) 1 tank explosion.
2 A. (Kelly) I may have written an 3 extraneous note on another copy, though. Can I look 4 for that one?
5 (Pause.)
6 A. (Kelly) I can't seem to find it right 7 now. But when I called Mr. Ikey's--or Mr. Lucas' 8 office, I spoke with an assistant, his assistant in 9 that office. And she said that he wasn't there. I 10 asked her if she knew anything about it and she 11 said, "No, I didn't hear that any bus drivers 12 refused."
13 She suggested I call Mr. Mahady, the 14 transportation officer. I did so. He said, "No, 15 none of my bus drivers refused to drive the buses."
16 It was either later that day or the next day I 17 called Mr. Lucas back and I asked him, "Mr. Lucas- "
l l
18 I explained who I was.
l 19 I said, "You recently underwsnt an 20 interview by one of our people and in response to a 21 question about bus drivers refusing to evacuate, you l
22 said two or three bus drivers refused to evacuate- "
23 I mean, "refused to participate because they were 24 frightened and so forth." And he says he has no 25 recollection of saying that.
O COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index t
19912 (Q_/ 1 So I said, "Well, there is something 2 about testimony, you found this out later, after the 3 fact." And he couldn't recall what, if anything, he 4 said about testimony. So I clarified.
5 "So you are saying no bus drivers 6 refused to drive?" He said, "No bus drivers refused 7 to drive."
8 I went and asked, I believe it was Pam 9 Emig in this case, what she knew about it. At this 10 point--it was some time later, I don't know how much 11 time, several weeks at any rate--and she just 12 maintained that she thought he said that and didn't 13 have any additional explanation for why that was O 14 there.
15 So the basis of my comment a few 16 moments ago was I called back, spoke to three 17 people, two emergency management officials and one l 18 bus company official to see if there was refusal, 19 and they said "no."
20 Q. Let's look at question 18, on page six.
21 The question is, "Did any of these refusals occur j 22 because bus drivers were concerned about the safety 23 of their family?" The answer is given, "Three out 24 of 20, 15 percent," and the notation is, "found out i
25 in testimony later on." Correct.
O COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index l
19913
() 1 A. (Kelly) Yes.
2 Q. That is the reference to testimony you 3 are talking about?
4 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
5 Q. What testimony is being referred to 6 there?
7 A. (Kelly) I don't know specifically from 8 talking to these people. I do know that there were 9 lawsuits over the--with Union Carbide, I believe was i 10 the company involved. I was assuming it may have 11 had something to do with that, but I don't know for 12 sure.
13 Q. Did you tell Mr. Lucas whether or not O 14 you were involved in those lawsuits.
15 A. (Kelly) I wasn't involved in that.
16 Q. Did you tell Mr. Lucas whether you were 17 involved in those lawsuits.
18 A. (Kelly) I am not involved in those 19 lawsuits.
20 Q. Did you tell him you weren't.
21 A. (Kelly) I didn't tell him anything 22 about that. You just asked what testimony he was 23 referring to. I told you what my opinion was of 24 what that meant. I am not telling you that I 25 discussed that with him. I did not discuss that O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19914 1 with him. I told him what was written down. I 2 asked if he knew what it was in regard to. He said 3 "no."
4 Q. Could he have believed your call had 5 something to do with those lawsuits?
6 A. (Kelly) I don't believe so.
7 Q. Why?
8 A. (Kelly) For one thing, based on other 9 knowledge I have, I think that case was settled some 10 time ago, so I don't think there is any pending 11 litigation. We told him who we were, and you can 12 see the explanation that we gave to him. I can't 13 tell you what he was thinking of, but I don't have 14 any reason to believe he thought I was involved in 15 that.
16 Q. You are saying that these were court 17 cases that this testimony came out in about bus 18 drivers not showing up. Is that right?
19 A. (Kelly) It says here, "found out in 20 testimony later on." You asked me what testimony is 21 that.
22 Q. What testimony was it?
23 A. (Kelly) I don't know from talking to 24 them. I am only telling you what I know because of 25 other reasons.
O COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19915
( 1 Q. So, apparently the fact that two or 2 three bus drivers didn't report was stated by 3 somebody in testimony, sworn testimony, according to 4 this?
5 A. (Kelly) No. That is not what that--in 6 answer to question 16, they said two to three 7 drivers and they stated a reason why. Then, whoever 8 said this to the interviewer said this--the way I 9 interpret it was, "This fact was found out later on 10 in testimony."
11 I guess that answers your question.
12 Q. This fact was stated by somebody in 13 testimony. Right?
O 14 MR. CHRISTMAN: Objection. Asked and 15 answered.
16 JUDGE GLEASON: Well, I believe he is 17 trying to clear it up and it is unclear in my mind.
18 Let him proceed.
19 A. (Kelly) It may have been. Again, all 20 I can say it is, I called three people to find out i
21 if they knew about it and they denied--the one guy 22 who apparently said this, denied he said this.
t 23 JUDGE GLEASON: I believe, Mr.
24 McMurray, he is saying he doesn't know what the 25 testimony means.
O COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19916
_ 1 Q. Did you ever ask who gave the testimony 2 at which it was stated that two or three bus drivers 3 may not have reported?
4 A. (Kelly) No. Because the person who 5 apparently said this, said he hadn't said it at all, 6 so--
7 Q. Did you make any efforts to find out 8 where that testimony might be?
9 MR. BACEMANN: Objection. Asked and 10 answered many times, sir.
11 MR. McMURRAY: That has not been asked.
12 JUDGE GLEASON: No, it has not been 13 asked.
14 A. (Kelly) The question is, did I attempt 15 to find whatever testimony that might have been?
16 Q. That's right.
17 A. (Kelly) No, I did not.
18 Q. In light of this conflicting 19 information, you chose to credit Mr. Lucas' second 20 statement, rather than dig further as to whether or 21 not there was actually role abandonment. Is that 22 your testimony?
23 A. (Kelly) No, it is not. I chose to 24 speak to Mr. Lucas, the tran'sportation officer at 25 the bus company, and Mr. Lucas' assistant.
O l
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19917
( 1 Q. It is your testimony, then, that 2 despite what is written on this survey and despite 3 the fact that there might have been information in 4 testimony, you chose to believe those people rather 5 than dig any further. Correct? That is your 6 testimony, isn't it, Mr. Kelly?
7 A. (Kelly) I chose to talk to the people 8 who were initially involved in this and the person 9 who apparently said that he didn't say it.
10 Q. Well, apparently he did say it first, 11 right?
12 A. (Kelly) I think I have answered that.
13 I don't know if he said it or not. When I asked him O 14 if he said it, obviously, he said no. That is what 15 I have testified to.
16 Q. Pam Emig was the one who did this 17 interview. Right?
! 18 A. (Kelly) That is correct.
19 Q. She did a number of these interviews, 20 didn't she?
21 A. (Kelly) Yes, she did.
l 22 Q. Did you check to see how many others l 23 she may havo gotten wrong?
24 A. (Kelly) What was that?
l l
25 Q. Did you check to see how many others l
l e COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index l
L
19918 r
4 1 she may have gotten wrong?
2 MR. CHRISTMAN: I object to the 3 question. It is objectionable and offensive. If he 4 wants to know how many questionnaires this person 5 completed, that is okay.
6 JUDGE GLEASON: I don't understand why 7 it is objectionable.
8 MR. CHRISTMAN: The statement in the 9 question is how many others she may have gotten 10 wrong. For one thing, it is compound. He really 11 wants to know how many questionnaires this person 12 completed.
b 13 MR. McMURRAY: No. That is not tne O 14 question.
15 JUDGE GLEASON: I don't think that is 16 the question.
17 MR. CHRISTMAN: The question is how 18 many other questionnaires might have been gotten 19 wrong.
20 JUDGE GLEASON: How many questionnaires 21 might she have gotten wrong is the question.
22 It does assume certain things. That la 23 why I asked what your objection was.
24 MR. CHRISTMAN: It assumes all sorts of 25 things.
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19919
() 1 JUDGE GLEASON: You ought to make your 2 objections clear, Mr. Christman, as to what your 3 basis is. I can't read your mind.
4 A. (Kelly) The question is how many may 5 she have gotten wrong? .
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. (Kelly) Well, there is two ways I can 8 answer that: I mean, obviously, any person can make 9 any mistake on any of these forms. The process we
- 10 used for checking this is, I looked, I reviewed 11 every questionnaire shortly after they completed it.
12 If there appeared to be anything, you know, 13 confusing to me or out of the ordinary, than I would O 14 have followed up with questions and did so with many 15 of these just to make sure I understood. In this. t 16 particular case there was nothing to indicate to me, 17 the day after, that there was anything wrong with 18 that. It didn't bother me at that time.
19 When I was preparing testimony, at that 20 point I needed additional information to prepare the 21 testimony, about why they did, in fact, abandon P
22 their role or refuse to drive. So, I--
23 Q. Sorry. You said when you were 24 preparing--when? For this cross-examination?
25 A. (Kelly) No. Preparing the testimony.
O COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTIO!I/koyword index
R 19920
() 1 Q. After you determined that Ms. Emig had 2 gotten this one wrong, did you do anything after 3
3 that point to check all her work, to make surs she 4 had gotten it right?
5 A. (Kelly) I didn't call bach and 6 reinterview all her people, no, I did not.
7 Q. What I hear you saying, Mr. Kelly, is 8 that in two instances you nade further inquiry to 9 determine further what the nature of the' appearance 10 of role abandonment was, right?
11 A. (Kelly) Yes.
12 Q. In both those instances, the 13 information that you were inquiring about was O 14 unfavorable to LILCO's case, right?
15 A. (helly) No, it was not.
16 Q. It showed instances of role .
17 abandonment, right?
i 18 A. (Kelly) Yes, but I thought I explained i
19 that earlier. When I first got this information, I 20 saw, okay, role abandonment. It didn't bother me l
21 because LILCO's position is role abandonment can 4 22 occur, it is just not an extensive problem. It is a 23 possibility, not a probability. So the fact that a 24 couple of bus drivers abandon their role wouldn't 25 have a negative effect on LILCO's position.
i C) l COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index c .- - . _ _ . -- . _ _ . _ . . --
19921 1 Later on, when I am preparing 2 testimony, it was obvious that I needed to get 3 information, additional information. So I called 4 and found out not what I thought I was going to find 5 out. I thought I was going to get more 6 clarification as to why they refused to drive. What 7 I found out was, she said there were no refusals.
8 Had I found out other things, I would have reported 9 that.
10 Q. The number of drivers, how many drivers 11 were contacted in the Taft chemical explosion" 12 A. (Crocker) Three.
fs 13 Q. Let's go down to the next bullet which U 14 says that "In all evacuations there are enough 15 drivers to drive evacuation buses," and you mention 16 a roster of evacuation bus drivers in Denver. Do 17 you see that?
18 A. (Kelly) Yes.
19 Q. Have you made any inquiry to detsrmine i 20 whether there is such a roster of local school bus 2 .' drivers here in the local area who would drive in a l 22 radiological emergency at Shoreham?
l l 23 A. (Kelly) Just based on what I have been l
l 24 hearing, I am not personally aware of any roster.
l 25 JUDGE GLEASON: Is this a convenient 1
l COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index l
l t
19922
) 1 place for you to stop?
2 MR. McMURRAY: I have about five 3 minutes more.
4 JUDGE GLEASON: Okay.
5 Q. It is also true, isn't it, Mr. Kelly, 6 that in several instances the point was made in the 7 survey, in the responses to the surveys, that t
8 certain bus drivers were called out specifically 9 because they didn't live in the area of r.isk.
10 Right?
11 A. (Kelly) Yes. I can recall off the top 12 of my head at least one. In Marysville, at least 13 one of the bus companies, I believe, called people O 14 from outside the impact area.
- 15 Q. Isn't it true it also happened in 16 Pinellas County?
17 A. (Kelly) It could be. I do recall i 18 there was more than one. I just don't know which
\
19 oner.
20 Q. Isn't it true it also happened at Taft.
21 A. (Kelly) It could very well be.
22 Q. You were just saying they didn't call 23 the people specifically because they lived in the 24 impact area?
25 A. (Kelly) I'm sorry. I am confused by O
1 l COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index l
i
19923
() 1 the last question and this question.
2 Q. You have now testified that specific 3 bus drivers were not called because they lived in 4 the impact area. Isn't that right?
5 A. (Crocker) Yes. I said I can recall, 6 at least in the Marysville incident, at least one of 7 the bus companies called people from outside the 8 impact area. It is stated on the form. You 9 mentioned two areas.
10 Q. I am talking about Taft right now, 11 which is Suffolk County Exhibit 7, Is that the case 12 where they were not called because they lived 13 outside the area?
O 14 A. (Kelly) On question number--page 15 seven, number 21, Mary Mahady said that bus drivers 16 who lived outside the evacuation zone were 17 contacted.
18 Q. So, in that specific accident, the bus 19 drivers who were called were from outside the area.
20 Right?
21 A. (Kelly) Apparently.
22 Q. Isn't it true also that in Pinellas 23 County there was also an effort made to call drivers 24 from outside the area.
25 A. (Kelly) Is this one of the exhibits O
f COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19924 O 1 veu had suse eiven me2 2 Q. Yes. The Larry Newman, which is 3 Suffolk County Bus Driver Exhibit 9 for 4 identification.
5 Look at page 12, question 37.
6 "What percentage of these potential bus 7 drivers had families in the area at risk during the 8 emergency?"
9 "Answer: They were selectively 10 contacted based on proximity t7 reporting station 11 and low risk of family." -Correct?
12 A. (Kelly) I see. Yes. That is what it 13 says.
14 Q. You said also, that you recall it 15 happened in Marysville that people were specifically 16 called who were outside the impact area.
17 A. (Kelly) That is what I recollect. I 18 would have to look at it, but I recollect that, yes, 19 MR. McMURRAY: I think, then, that this 20 is a good place to stop, Judge Gleason.
21 JUDGE GLEASON: Fine. We will come l
22 back at 1:30.
23 (Whereupon, a luncheon recess was l
24 taken.)
l 25 O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCR1PTION/ keyword index
19925 1 * *
- 2 3 AFTERNOON SESSION 4 (1:35 p.m.)
5 6 MR. CHRISTMAN: I have a preliminary 7 matter, if you don't mind.
P We served on the Board the testimony on 9 hospital ETE's, rebuttal testimony. It goes to Dr.
10 Harkin's testimony. With it, is a motion to file 11 the testimony. All I suggest is that it would be 12 nice to resolve that issue by the end of the week.
13 I also offer that Dennis Sisk, the lawyer who will O 14 be handling that issue for us, will be here tomorrow 15 and can explain or argue as you wish, on that 16 motion.
17 JUDGE GLEASON: We we will take it up 18 tomorrow, then.
19 Mr. McMurray?
20 MR. McMURRAY: Judge Gleason, just with 21 respect to that, I appreciate if it could be held 22 later in the day. Obviously, I am involved in this 23 cross-examiristion. I am also involved in the 24 hospital ETW issue. This is an extensive piece of 25 testimony and I am not going to have a chance to
(
i COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION /lieyword index
19926 l' read it until tomorrow. So if we could do it 2 towards the end of the day.
3 JUDGE GLEASON: We can even do it 4 Friday.
5 MR. McMURRAY: Or the end of the day, 6 as long as it is not first thing tomorrow morning.
7 MR. CHRISTMAN: We will have an 8 assistant come out toward the end of the day 9 tomorrow and everybody will be here.
10 MR. McMURRAY: The first thing I would 11 like to do at this time, Judge Gleason, is move 12 Suffolk County Bus Driver Exhibits 8, 9 and 10 into 13 evidence.
! 14 JUDGE GLEASON: Is there objection?
15 (Pause . )
16 JUDGE GLEASON: Hearing none, the
! 17 exhibits will be received in evidence.
l
- 18 (Suffolk County Bus Driver 19 Exhibit Hos. 8, 9 and 10 were 20 received in evidence.)
I I 21 MR. McMURRAY: I have one other matter i 22 to clean up. If we can go to Exhibit No. 6, which 23 is the Alice Colbert survey instrument.
l 24 Q. Mr. Kelly, let me refer you to page six 25 of that. We already went over the answers to L
L O
i COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index i
19927 1 questions 16 and l'h. On the left-hand column, next 2 to question 17 is some writing. Do you see that?
3 A. (Kelly) Yes, I do.
4 Q. That is not the writing that was put 5 there by the interviewer. I don't know who that 6 3. .t s . That is not the interviewer's handwriting, 7 right?
f 8 A. (Kelly) No, that is my handwriting.
9 Q. That is handwriting you put there as a 10 result of your follow-up call to Ms. Colbert?
11 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
12 JUDGE SHON: Mr. McMurray, before we 13 leave that particular exhibit, I would like to clear
' O 14 up something that is on the page before that, page 15 five. I understood the witness to say that the 7 16 people that didn't show up, didn't show up because 17 they were never called. The persons in charge knew 18 that they lived where their families might be in .
r 19 danger and didn't call them.
20 The previous page 4.?s a barely legible 21 note on it that says, "Drivers just showed up. Not l 22 formerly contacted." That is next to No. 13. On 23 No. 15, it says, "As econ as the word was out that i
24 buses were needed, the drivers showed up," which 25 suggests that, indeed, none of the drivers were i
O .
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19928
() 1 contacted at all. I don't know whether--you were 2 making the point, Mr. McMurray, awhile ago, that 3 these people either were or weren't contacted or 4 something like that.
5 Mr. Kelly, could you clear that up?
6 Was no one contacted? And if so, then what is 7 special about the people who weren't contacted 8 because they were known to live in a danger area?
9 WITNESS KELLY: Well, the reason I 10 called there was that they said two or three people 11 didn't show up.
12 JUDGE SHON: Yes, but it seems as if 13 they didn't show up and everybody else did.
O 14 WITNESS KELLY: That is my handwritten 15 note as well. I am just trying to recall the 16 rationale for that.
17 (Witnesses confer.)
18 JUDGE SHON: I trust on question 15 19 that is not your handwriting, is it?
i 20 WITNESS KELLY: No , that is not. What 21 does that say?
22 JUDGE SHON: I can't read it exactly, 23 but I think it says, "As soon as the word was out 24 that buses were needed, drivers showed up."
l 25 MR. McMURRAY: Judge Shon, we do have O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19929 O s/ 1 the originals of these.
2 JUDGE SHON: Do you? Could you look at 3 it?
4 MR. McMURRAY: I don't, but counsel for 5 LILCO does or Mr. Kelly does. One or the other, 6 WITNESS KELLY: Yes, (referring) it 7 says, "As soon as word was out that- " I can't even 8 read 14 here.
9 Oh. "That levet broke, drivers showed .
10 up."
11 What I think the comment--what the l 12 problem here is, some bus drivers may have been 13 called and other bus drivers just showed up. Then I j 14 don't know why, on 16, this problem ever arose to 15 begin with. I can't explain it beyond what I have 16 already said.
17 JUDGE SHON: So, then, doesn't this 18 sort of vitiate the notion that they didn't show up 19 because they were never contacted? Apparently a lot ,
20 of people did.
21 WITNESS KELLY: Are you saying why -
22 isn't this an issue--
23 JUDGE SHON: No. I say doesn't this 24 rather--the word I used was vitiate or reduce the 25 force of the notion that these people didn't show up
(
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index i i
19930 O. 1 because they weren't contacted? It appears that 2 many people did show up, because they weren't 3 contacted and that the drivers whose families were 4 in the danger area did not.
5 JUDGE GLEASON: Is the question clear 6 to you, Mr. Kelly?
7 WITNESS KELLY: Yes. An explanation, I 8 am trying to think of--all I can--
9 JUDGE GLEASON: You made reference in 10 the testimony before somewhere that a lot of drivers 11 showed up even though they weren't contacted.
12 JUDGE SHON: And you also said nobody 13 refused to show up or nobody, in effect, failed to 14 show up. But there were these three people who 15 hadn't shown up and you said, "Well, that is because 16 th0y weren't contacted."
5 17 WITNESS KELLY: Right.
18 JUDGE SHON: But an awful lot of other 19 people did la the same situation.
20 WITNESS KELLY: But if they weren't 21 contacted, they weren' t ever required to. If they 22 had problems at home but still weren't required, it 23 can't be a role conflict. They were never required 24 to perform this role.
25 JUDGE SHON: I see. I think that is COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index l
19931
() 1 the only question I wanted to ask. !
2 JUDGE GLEASON: Proceed, Mr. McMurray.
3 MR. McMURRAY: Thank you.
4 Q. Mr. Kelly, at lunch, did you happen to 5 tally up the number of respondents who did not 6 answer the question as to how many of the bus 7 drivers or what percentage of the bus drivers' 8 families were in danger?
9 A. (Kelly) I hadn't gotten to that. I 10 only worked on the question about how many didn't 11 know if they showed up late. That is the only one I 12 got to do.
13 Q. Can we have that, please?
) 14 A. (Kelly) Yes. As I counted, in 15 Pittsburgh--Pittsburgh, the company didn't know.
16 They replied, "Unknown." In Miamisburg, one of two 17 companies, as I counted, said, "I don't know" and 18 the emergency manager didn't know. In Pinellas, 19 none of the companies, but the emergency manager 20 didn't know. He didn't know pretty much anything 21 about the bus drivers.
22 Then in Miamisburg, the emergency 23 manager replied he didn't know.
24 Q. I have Miamisburg being referred to 25 twice.
O COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19932 1 A. (Kelly) I' m sorry. Marysville. I 2 can't read my writing.
3 Q. Your last reference was to Marysville?
4 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
5 Q. How many of the respondents there 6 didn't know?
7 A. (Kelly) I believe it was just the 8 emergency manager. And that was in answer to 9 question number 22.
10 Q. You haven't had an opportunity yet to 11 tally up how many didn't answer the question as to 12 how many had family in the risk area?
13 A. (Kelly) No. I have not done that yet.
14 Q. Would you do that at the next break?
j 15 A. (Kelly) I will try to. If I have 16 enough time I certainly will do it.
17 Q. Let's stay on this survey just a 18 second. How many of these surveys were accidents 19 that involved the evacuation of schools?
20 A. (Kelly) I believe five of the cases j 21 involved the evacuation of schools.
l 22 Q. And in those cases where schools were 23 evacuated, only a few buses were used. Isn't that 1
24 correct?
25 A. (Kelly) In one case there were 38 COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
. t i
19933 i- A V 1 buses--I'm sorry. In one case, a total number of 64 2 buses were used for the evacuation. In the next f
3 case, a total of 10 buses; a total of 25 buses in ar.other case; total of 3 buses in another casei and b 4
! 5 total of 3 bumes in the other case.
6 Q. . me focus my question more clearly.
L 7 Mith respect to those evacuations, I believe you L 8 gave a total number of buses used for everybody who E
,. 9 had to be evacuated?
i 10 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
11 Q. Can you break that down? For those f 12 five emergencies, can you tell us how many buses--we 13 can also-say how many bus drivers--had to be used to i
O 14 evacuate school children?
- 15 A. (Kelly) I was just'looking back at the 16 questionnaire. I believe the questions we asked i
17 related to schools were how many schools needed to i
18 be evacuated by bus, and then how many school l
i j 19 children needed to be evacuated by bus. Then there i
j 20 is a question that deals with total number of buses.
l 21 I don't believe we have the number of buses used l 22 just for school children.
23 Q. One last question on the survey and 24 then we will move on. In three of those i
! 25 evacuations, the information I have is that only two O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
l i
19934 I
( 1 schools were evacuated. In the other two--one other 2 had four schools evacuated, another had five schools l 3 evacuated. Is that what your information is?
4 A. (Kelly) All but the last one. My 5 notes that I prepared have seven, not five.
6 Springfield, are you referring to?
7 Q. In Springfield, that was five schools 8 and two colleges?
9 A. (Kelly) Okay. Yes. I had a total of 10 seven. Correct.
11 Q. Is it your understanding that those 12 schools had to be evacuated by bus or just that they 13 were evacuated and we don't know how they were '
O 14 evacuated?
15 A. (Kelly) In Springfield?
a 16 Q. Yes.
17 A. (Kelly) In Springfield, at this point, 18 all I can recollect is that they closed the high 19 school and the students walked to the bus area that 20 they would normally walk to and they were taken 21 away. It was an evacuation. It was because of a 22 gas leak or something of that nature, so I would you 23 say it was an evacuation.
24 Is that what your question was? I'm 25 sorry. I got lost in my answer.
()
i COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index !
19935
) 1 Q. We are getting there.
2 There were two colleges involved. You ,
i 3 don't know whether those were evacuated by bus or 4 not?
5 A. (Kelly) I can't recollect.
6 Q. Let's move on.
7 Your other survey was one that involved 8 individual bus drivers. Right?
9 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
10 Q. Did you conduct this second survey 11 after the first one?
12 A. (Kelly) Yes.
13 Q. Approximately when did you conduct the 14 second survey.
15 A. (Kelly) Same period. Late March to 16 early April.
17 Q. Again, had this been planned as part of 18 your overall project for LILCO?
19 A. (Kelly) Initially, what we were doing, 20 as I recall, we were going to do an organizational 21 study on those 19 and then, from that, get in touch 22 with the bus drivers to the extent possible, only 23 school bus drivers, only those involved in the 24 evacuation of schools.
25 I think there were a certain number O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
?-
l 19936 1 that were done, and I can't recall how many actual 2 school bus drivers we had success with, but it was 3 maybe a half-dozen to a dozen, in that range. And 4 at that point, we decided to try to interview any 5 ' school bus drivers, as many as possible.
i
! 6 So, at that point we went and got in 7 touch with every organization that we had previously l- 8 talked to and asked them to give us a list of bus
- 9. drivers who participated in that evacuation.- And 10 that is how we got to that point.
f
< 11 Q. I take it originally you had just tried l 12 to contact drivers from these five accidents or
! 13 emergencies that we just discussed?
O 14 A. (Kelly) I believe that is correct.
15 Q. And you say you didn't have success l
l 16 except for half-dozen or so?
17 A. (Kelly) Yes.
l 18 Q. What did you mean by saying you didn't j 19 have success?
20 A. (Kelly) We couldn't get people to give
- 21 us names. Privacy rules they had--there may be laws l
22 in certain states, but they just refused to give us l
23 the names of people who had been involved. In some I
j 24 cases, it was a matter of they didn't keep records.
25 That comes to mind in Greenfield and one other
!O
{
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19937 (A -) 1 place, possibly Pinellas. And Nanticoke, the guy 2 ran the company, he and his wife, and he didn't feel 3 like going through records to see if he might be 4 able to determine--a wide variety of problems. Just 5 a matter of people not giving us the names of the 6 bus drivers involved.
7 In some cases, they agreed to ask the 8 bus drivers involved to call us collect and that met 9 with limited, if any, success, as I recall. That 10 was probably due to privacy as well.
11 Q. Are you now talking about your success 12 in contacting all bus drivers in general or just i
13 school bus drivers?
O 14 A. (Kelly) Well, that is both, those 15 reasons.
16 Q. For both?
17 A. (Kelly) For both.
18 Q. Let me backup then. I think what you 19 are telling us is that you were only able to 20 interview a very small proportion of the bus drivers 21 who were purported to have driven in these 22 emergencies. Right?
23 A. (Kelly) We could only get, as I said, 24 the 6 to 12.
25 Q. The 6 to 12 who drove school buses.
O COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19938 1 Right?
2 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
3 Q. You eventually were able to reach 27 4 bus drivers in all. Right?
5 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
6 Q. Again, that is only a very small 7 proportion of those who are purported to have 8 driven. Right?
9 A. (Kelly) Yes. Well, without adding it 10 up, there were maybe 400 buses or 500 buses that had 11 been involved in these evacuations.
12 Q. And after all your efforts, you were
! 13 only able to interview 27 bus drivers. Right?
14 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
15 Q. You weren't able to interview bus 16 ,
drivers who participated in all 19 disasters.
17 Right?
l 18 A. (Kelly) I believe that's correct.
19 Q. You were only able to interview--
20 A. (Kelly) 10.
21 Q. --drivers who participated in 10. Is 22 that correct?
23 A. (Kelly) That's correct, i
24 Q. For some of those you were only able to 25 interview one bus driver who participated in that l
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
t 19939 :
1 disaster?
1 2 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
3 Q. Let's go to Attachment H.
4 Mr. Kelly, Attachment H is the ,
i 5 interview schedule used for the interviews of the 6 individual bus drivers. Is that correct?
7 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
- - Was it prepared by Drs. Mileti and 8 Q.
9 Lindell?
10 A. (Kelly) Yes. The same process applies 11 here as to the last--the other survey.
12 Q. Did you delete or add any questions?
13 A. (Kelly) I don't believe I did, no.
14 Not in this case.
15 Q. Did anyone not associated with LILCO or l
- 16 with Weston review the questionnaire?
5 17 A. (Kelly) Yes. In the test. We testod 18 two bus company people--I tested also on that 19 original civil defense person I mentioned. And then 20 each of the interviewers tested it, practiced using 21 it en someone that they knew, but I don't know who 22 they were offhand.
23 Q. I guess what I am asking is did anyone 24 review it for its scientific validity or for bias or 25 anything like that?
O COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19940 1 A. (Kelly) Our test was more for clarity
- 2 and understanding and so forth.
3 Q. I take it you are saying no one 4 reviewed it for scientific validity?
5 A. (Kelly) I was not involved with that.
6 I don't know if Drs. Mileti or Lindell did that.
i 7 A. (Mileti) I might just add, that it was 4
8 just the two of us who constructed it.
9 Q. You mentioned that you had trouble 10 contacting these bus drivers. How did you 11 eventually get the names of the 27 that you were 12 able to call?
13 A. (Kelly) In those cases--for instance, 14 in Pinellas--is it Pinellas?
15 In Marysville, at least one of the bus 16 companies gave us some names. And in Springfield, a 17 bus company gave us the names. We got these names 18 from the bus companies we had initially interviewed.
19 Beyond that--oh, another reason why, even when we 20 had some names, some people had moved. I recall 21 maybe it was Greenfield, one guy was a--moved on to 22 become a police officer at U. Mass, and we couldn't l
23 contact him there. Just people moved on and they 24 didn't have any forwarding addresses.
25 So, we had more names than interviews,
. COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19941 1 but we just couldn't get in touch with them. But 2 for the most part, the original reasons applied.
3 Bus companies just wouldn't give us names.
4 Q. What you had asked for were the names 5 of people who had driven in these various disasters.
6 Right?
7 A. (Kelly) That's right.
8 Q. So, by definition, you would not have 9 been given names of many people who refused to 10 participate in the disasters. Right?
11 A. (Kelly) Well, in these cases there 12 were none.
13 Q. Well, I think that is questionable, 14 given what we have seen in your other data, but 15 given your question, you would not have gotten names 16 of anybody that didn't participate. Right?
17 A. (Kelly) Given the question and given 18 the fact that in none of these cases people had 19 refused.
20 Q. The question would not have elicited 21 the names of anybody who didn't participate. Isn't 22 that correct?
23 A. (Kelly) Yes.
24 Q. On the bottom of page 29, going over to 25 page 30, you state there that no bus drivers refused O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRI? TION / keyword index
19942 1 to drive buses during the evacuation and only two 2 drivers reported doing something else before 3 beginning their bus driver functions. Do you see 4 that?
5 A. (Kelly) Yes, I do.
6 Q. Isn't it true, Mr. Kelly, that in a 7 number of the responses you got, the bus drivers had 8 actually evacuated with their familles, but they 9 were able to evacuate before being notified?
10 (Mitnesses confer.)
11 A. (Kelly) Can you refer me to a question 12 number?
13 Q. I am talking about--for instance, in 14 two documents here, the first has, in the upper 15 right-hand corner, the date "3/25/88," a 10 page 16 document. It says, "Bus Driver Interview Schedule."
17 The incident is Marysville levee break and flood.
18 Interviewee's name is Jean Pratt. I would like this 19 marked as suffolk County Bus Driver Exhibit 11 for 20 identification.
21 JUDGE GLEASON: The other?
22 MR. McMURRAY: The other is a similar 23 interview schedule. In this case the interviewee's 24 name is Rochelle Laird. I would like that marked 25 Suffolk County Bus Driver Exhibit Number 12.
O COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19943 1 JUDGE GLEASON: The documents will be 2 designated with those numbers.
3 (The document referred to was i marked for identification as 5 Suffolk County Bus Driver Exhibit 6 Nos. 11 and 12 .)
7 Q. Look at Suffolk County Bus Driver 8 Exhibit 11, Ms. Pratt's interview. On page 3 of the 9 docur nt she states that it was likely that her home 10 would be threatened by the flood--that it was 11 extremely likely her home would be threatened by the 12 flood. Isn't that correct?
13 A. (Kelly) Yes.
14 Q. On page 4, in answer to question 11, 15 the question asked, "What members of your household 16 were at home when you received the activation 17 message?"
i 18 And the answer is "None. Had already i 19 evacuated." Correct?
20 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
21 Q. That came tive of response--that is, 22 that the family had already .vacuated--is given in 23 other interview schedules. Correct?
24 A. (Kelly) It is possible. As I look at 25 your Suffolk County No. 12, in answer to question 8, I COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index 1
, 7-.. - _ . , _ _ . - . . _.__ ,_. . ._
19944 O 1 they said one or more household members evacuated 2 prior to receiving the activation message.
3 Q. And in that case, again the threat to 4 the actual home was extremely likely, but it appears 5 that there had been an evacuation of at least some 6 household members. Correct?
7 A. (Kelly) Yes, it appears so.
8 Q. Prior to notification?
9 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
10 Q. Are you aware of any others where that 11 response was given.
12 A. (K911y) It may be, but I am not aware l 13 of any. I can't recall any others. There may be.
)
14 Q. That isn't something you tallied?
15 A. (Kelly) Looking at my tally, it says 16 "two"--it had two cases one or more household 17 members evacuated.
18 Q. Before or after the notification?
19 A. (Kelly) Well, it was in responsc to a
! 20 question, "Prior to yout receipt of activation 21 message."
22 Q. Isn't it true that in other instances l 23 the respondents said that they prepared their 24 households for evacuation prior to reporting?
25 A. (Kelly) Yes. Looking at my summary, O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19945 ,
1 it says five prepared to evacuate. ,
2 Q. Prior to--
3 A. (Kelly) Prior to the activation 4 message, yes. ;
5 Q. One of the disasters we are talking 6 about here is Marysville. Is that right?
7 A. (Kelly) That's right.
8 Q. In Marysville, there was sufficient 9 notice of the incident for the bus drivers to !
10 evacuate their families before being called. Isn't 11 that right?
12 A. (Kelly) In the Marysville incident, as
- 13 I recall, there had been heavy rains and some 14 flooding in the area and then, as I also recall, a 15 levee broke. You had a combination of flooding 16 conditions which caused a sudden levee break. This 17 Exhibition No. 12 shows, in answer to number five, 18 there was no warning. "Were you aware there was an 19 emergency prior to receiving your activation 20 message?" They said, "No, no warning."
i 21 Q. Isn't it true, in response to 22 Exhibit--in Exhibit 11, in response to question 1, 23 it states there was three days warning or standing 1
24 by? y 25 A. (Kelly) That is No. 117 O :
I COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index !
i I
t
l l
I 19946 j
4
() Q. That's right.
f 2 A. (Kelly) I'm sorry. Which exhibit are t
3 you lo: Sang at?
f 4 Q. 11. ;
5 A. (Kelly) Question number? 7 6 Q. Question one.
i 7 A. (Kelly) Oh, I'm sorry. t 8 They had been on alert for three days.
9 I believe that is what they were talking about, due i 10 to the heavy rains and flooding. And then I believe 1 11 what probably happened here is these poople were on L 1 12 alert, maybe because the levee was about to break, l 13 and then it broke, if it is similar to the other 14 case, and it is the same case. It does say, "three [
15 day warning standby." l 16 Q. This is an example of a disaster where
. 17 there was a fairly extended warning time. Right?
18 A. (Kelly) Depending on definition. I i
19 mean, with flooding, yes. There was an indication i 4
20 that there was flooding in the area. I don't l
- 21 believe there was all that much warning time for the ,
22 levee break. I am not certain of that. :
t 23 A. (Kelly) What I was trying to get l f
24 across, there was the long term warning for the !
I 4 25 flooding, but not from the flash flood that resulted l
( t t
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index f
i i
l' 19947 ,
1 from the levee break. !
i 2 Q. Because of that warning time, many of l 3 the bus drivers were able either to evacuation their ,
t 4 families or prepare to evacuate before being 5 notified to respond to their emergency roles.
6 Right?
7 A. (Kelly) You know, if they had several 8 days' warning time, yes, they would have had time to 9 prepare.
I 10 Q. It is true, isn't it, I think we just I
11 discussed it--a large number of these surveys, i
2 12 whether it is before or after the notification, ,
t l 13 there is a lot of indication about evacuation of
[
14 family members. Right?
15 A. (Kelly) You are asking me to t
16 generalize across the whole thing. I am not sure I 17 can do that right at the moment. Can you ask the 18 question again for me so I am certain I understand? i 19 Q. Yes. .
20 In a large number of the surveys you r
21 did, isn't it true that there were responses given 22 indicating that the bus drivers engaged either in 23 evacuation of the family or preparation to evacuate? ;
24 A. (Lindell) Prior to what point?
25 Q. Either prior or after. I am just O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword indsx
1 talking right now about evacuation behavior.
2 A. (Kelly) I think I really would have to-3 look at'the data to give you the answer.
4 Q. Let me refresh your recollection.
5 Isn't it true that in the Spark's survey, it 6 indicated that the family was being prepared to 7 evacuate.
8 A. (Kelly) What is the Spark's survey?
S Q. It is not an exhibit I am trying to L
10 refresh your recollection. I don't want to put all 11 these into evidence.
12 A. (Kelly) What case was that?
13 Q. Marysville.
14 A. (Kelly) Okay. I have the Spark's 15 ' form.
16 Q. Isn't it true that in the Spark's 17 interview.there is an indication that the family was L
18 prepared to evacuate prior to the notice to report 19 for emergency duty?
20 A. (Kelly) In response to question eight, 21 "Did you or the members of your household take any 22 protective action prior to the receipt of your l 23 activation message," they said, "Yes, prepared to 24 evacuate."
, i 25 In response to question nine, "How much *
(
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
..~._-.. -__-.__. _ .- . _ . _ ___ _ _ ,._, _ .... _.. . - _ _ _..__._ . .- _,_, .- -_----..--.-_. -- ..
19949 1 time was there between when you first found out 2 about the emergency and when you received your 3 activation message," the answer was, "A few 4 minutes."
5 Q. You don't know, though, whether they 6 prepared to evacuate in that two-minute interval or 7 whether they preparr.d to evacuate beforehand.
8 Right?
9 A. (Kelly) Yes. I don't know. I don't 10 think I'can determine that from this data.
11 Q. Isn't it true that in the Marysville 12 incident one of the respondents, Nyla Rascheim, gave 13 the same sort of response, that family prepared to 14 evacuate?
15 A. (Kelly) The same answers as the last 16 one. Prepared to evacuate, five minutes between 17 when she found out about the emergency and when it 18 was activated. Of course, if they didn't know about 19 the emergency I don't know why they would have 20 prepared to evacuate, necessarily, prior to finding 21 out about it.
22 Q. You are saying there was three days' 23 warning?
24 A. (nelly) I didn't say that.
25 Q. We established earlier there was three O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19950
/~T
(_/ 1 days' warning time for the Marysville incident.
2 A. (Kelly) In this case--let's look at 3 this one. They apparently had rain even more than 4 three days long, possibly, to a week. And then they 5 said they prepared to avacuate sometime between then 6 and the incident. Yet when asked when you first 7 found out about the emergency, and I only evacuate 8 to emergencies, if I were to evacuate, they were 9 five minutes. So I don't know how to answer your 10 question.
11 Q. The emergency could mean the call to 12 respond to the emergency role, couldn't it?
l gs r 13 A. (Kelly) No. The question is when did 14 you first find out about the emergency and when you 15 received your activation message? That is five 16 minutes. I think probably since it ir only five 17 minutes and they had had rain for a week, they were 18 talking about the levee break.
19 A. (Lindell) The three days' wsrning that ,
20 is cited in Suffolk County Exhibit 11, it says--it l
l 21 is in the context of the activation message. It l
l 22 says, "Who did you receive the incident (sic) from?"
23 And it says, "Three days' warning." I would 24 interpret that to mean there was three days' warning 25 that they might be activated to take an emergency O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index l
I l
19951 l O 1 role--that is, to drive a bus, but not necessarily 2 that they had three days of warnJng that their home 3 night be in an impact area.
4 Q. But we don't really know how to 5 interpret it?
6 A. (Lindell) Exactly. That is what we 7 are saying. We don't know how to interpret that.
8 Q. It could be a long warning time.
9 A. (Lindell) We are saying we don't know 10 how to interpret that ,
11 Q. This is another example where the 12 information given is not clear, right, Mr. Kelly?
("T 13 A. (Kelly) No. I think the information
(/
14 is very clear.
15 Q. Dr. Lindell just said he didn't know 16 how to interpret it.
17 A. (Lindell) I don't see that the're is a 18 conflict there.
19 Q. That la fine.
20 In the next paragraph there is a 21 discussion of family members--how many of the 22 respondents had family members at home when they 23 received the activation message. Do you see that, 24 Mr. Kelly, on page 3Gi That is the first full 25 paragraph.
O COMPUTUR AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
l 19952 )
(~)
\# 1 A. (Kelly) 19 of the 27 respondents?
2 Q. Yes. You have that in front of you 3 now?
4 A. (Kelly) Yes, I do.
5 Q. Then you go on to say--and some of this 6 information has been corrected--10 of the 19 7 answered question seven about whether they thought 8 their household would be threatened by the hazardous 9 agent. Do you see that?
10 A. (Kelly) Yes.
11 Q. Question seven is pertinent, right, 12 because if the household, that is, the family
{) 13 14 members, were in the impact area that would be an important thing to know, right, for the purposes of 15 this issue? Right, Mr. Kelly?
16 A. (Kelly) Yes. I am just looking at 17 question seven again. Yes. It is how likely their l
18 home would be threatened.
19 Q. I think you just stated, isn't it a 20 fact that question seven doesn't ask whether they i
l 21 thought their household would be threatened by the 22 hazard agent, but whether their home would be I
23 threatened by the hazard agent?
24 A. (Kelly) That is what it says.
t 25 Q. Isn't it true there is a difference O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index w
19953
(",
1 between one's household and one's home? Wouldn't 2 household include the family members of people in 3 it?
4 A. (Lindell) Yes, it does. The reason it 5 was asked that way was because we wanted to make 6 clear--this is a problem we have come up across in 7 previous surveys, is that we wanted to make sure 8 that the respondents knew that it was dangerous to 9 be at that location and that if you asked the 10 question would their family be at risk, then that 11 creates an ambiguity in the respondent's mind as to 12 whether they would be at risk assuming that they 13 stayed there or assuming that they 2 eft. That is 14 the reason the question was asked that way.
15 Q. So the question was asked referring 16 specifically to where the home is located, right, 17 Dr. Lindell?
18 A. (Lindell) That is correct.
19 Q. The physical structure, right?
20 A. (Lindell) That is the location.
21 Q. And yet here in your testimony, Mr.
22 Kelly, you are talking about whether the question 23 asks whether the household would be threatened by 24 the hazard agent. Do you see that?
25 A. (Kelly) Yes. That is what it says.
O COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19954
-f 1 Q. But isn't it true that at least Suffolk 2 County Exhibits 11 and 12 show that at the same time 3 the home may have been threatened, the households, 4 the people in thc.n were not because they had already 5 been evacuated?
6 A. (Kelly) Yes. The people had been 7 evacuated, apparently, from their home.
8 Q. So, therefore, the relevant question 9 for whether or not the bus drivers thought their 10 families were in danger was not whether their homes 11 would be threatened a: the time but whether their 12 families, their ho ts iholds, would be threatened.
13 Isn't that rightt 14 (Pause.)
15 A. (Kelly) Can you ask me the question 16 again?
17 Q. Question seven, we have established,
'8
. talks about the preceding answer to the home.
19 Correct?
l 20 A. (Kelly) Yes.
21 Q. Let me try to phrase the question this 22 way, Mr. Kelly. In the middle of the paragraph we 23 are looking at, it says, "Even with this perceived 24 danger to their households, six of the seven I
25 proceeded immediately with their bus driver duties."
O l
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index i
19955 O 1 Do you see that?
2 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
3 Q. Okay. But question seven measured the 4 dangers to their home, and we have established that 5 in some cases the household members were out of 6 those homes. Right?
7 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
8 JUDGE GLEASON: Mr. McMurray?
9 MR. McMURRAY: Yes, sir.
10 JUDGE GLEASON: Have you devised some 11 way to expedite your cross-examination some way? We 12 have been going about five hours on about 13 five-and-a-half pages of testimony. That is very,
[
14 very slow.
15 MR. McMURRAY: I understand that, Judge 16 Gleason. I would like to say that there have been 17 three or four or five pages of testimony dealing l
18 with these surveys. As is true in all cases, some l
19 pages are meatier than others. LILCO relies very j 20 much on these surveys for so-called empirical data 21 to support their case. I am trying to explore 22 whether that empirical date is valid. I am almost I
23 done with this last survey and I am very confident i
24 that the pages after that are going to move much l
25 more quickly. It is just the fact that some pages COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index l
1 l
I
19956 1 have more information in them that needs to be 2 explored than others.
3 I will move along quickly.
. 4 JUDGE GLEASON: Proceed.
5 Q. You mention that of this group, one i
6 driver took 20 minutes to evacuate her children 7 before reporting to drive an evacuation bus. Is 8 that correct, Mr. Kelly?
9 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
10 Q. Do you know how far away the high 11 ground was for her to reach and take her family to?
12 A. (Kelly) I don't believe so, no.
{} 13 14 Q. Since Marysville involved a flood, it was merely a case of taking the family to some area 15 above the flood waters. Correct?
16 A. (Kelly) I don't know if I'd use the 17 term "merely," but it would involve getting out of 18 the impact area. Yes.
19 Q. Now, down at the--in the middle of the 20 page you say, "With respect to the nine respondents 21 who did not answer the question about perceived 22 degree of danger to their household, we found the 23 following: That two respondents said their families 24 were closer to the impact area than they were- "that 25 is question 10. "Nevertheless, both went directly COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19957 O
'% 1 to the reporting location after being called."
2 Do you see that?
3 A. (Kelly) That is correct.
4 Q. That doesn't mean that their family was 5 in or even near the impact area, does it?
6 A. (Kelly) It doesn't necessarily mean 7 that. We may have to look to see where he was if we 8 could determine that from the questionnaire. But it 9 don't necessarily mean that.
10 Q. Also, two bus drivers said they were 11 with their families in the impact area at the time 12 they received the activation message. One driver l 13 made arrangements for his family to evacuate and
)
14 then reported to work a few minutes later. The 15 other respondent said he felt a great sense of 16 personal reeponsibility to help his family by 17 staying at home but instead gave instructions to his i
18 son to evacuate the family."
19 Do you see that?
20 A. (Kelly) Yes, I do.
l l 21 Q. In both of those cases that dealt with 22 the Hicksville accident, didn't it?
23 A. (Kelly) Yes. Both wice in Hicksville.
24 Q. And in both those cases there happened 25 to be a son over 18 years of age in the household to COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index i
19958 O 1 help evacuate the family. Is that right?
2 A. (Kelly) Yes. It appears so.
3 Q. One last line of questions on this 4 survey. Let's go to Attachment F for a second. I'm 5 sorry. Which attachment has the results for bus 6 driver survey?
7 A. (Kelly) "I."
8 Q. "I"?
9 A. (Kelly) Yes.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 Let's go to page 3 of Attachment I.
12 Attachment I tabulates tha answers to the various Correct, Mr. Kelly?
{} 13 14 questions on the survey.
A. (Kelly) Yes.
15 Q. And question 10 is one we have just 16 been looking at, which says, "Where were you located 17 at thw time of the i,apact?" Do you see that?
18 A. (Kelly) Yes, I do.
l 19 Q. Isn't it true that only two were l 20 reported to be with family in the impact area? Is 21 that right?
22 A. (Kelly) Two--yes. Two were with 23 family in the impact area.
24 Q. And two with were fan.ily in the 25 periphery?
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index l
1 f
l
19959 1 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
2 Q. So only four were with family either in 3 or near the impact area. Right?
4 A. (Kelly) Yes.
5 Q. That is a "yes"?
6 A. (Kelly) What was the question? I'm 7 sorry.
8 Q. Only four were with their family in or 9 near the impact area.
10 A. (Kelly) Yes. Yes.
11 Q. And with respect to--well, we know that 12 11 were with the family outside the area. Right?
13 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
14 A. (Lindell) But that is not only in 15 retrospect. What happens is that at the time of the 16 emergency, if you look at question seven, it says, 17 "As a result of the information you received prior i
18 to the activation," that is information that they 19 had. That is their perception at the time of the 20 emergency. And we have nine people that said either 21 extremely likely, very likely or even odds of your 22 home being threatened by the hazard agent.
23 We looked at this, we were a little 24 confused by this when we looked at it. When you
- 25 look down and see there are 11 people with a family l
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19960 0 1 outside the impact area, if you look at the question 2 you can see that allows them to express their 3 knowledge of whether or not their home was 4 ultimately affected. So there is a difference in 5 time perspective there. That is the reason we 6 believe there were nine people that believed 7 themselves and their families to be at risk during 8 the emergency, not just the four that are tabulated 9 here under question 10.
10 Q. Dr. Lindell, we have established on Il question seven that the word used is "home," not 12 "household." Correct?
l 13 A. (Lindell) Thnir location.
)
14 Q. The location of the home?
15 A. (Lindell) That's right.
16 Q. Not the location, necessarily, of the 17 family, correct, at the time of the impact?
18 A. (Lindell) At the time of--at the time 19 prior to the receipt of the activation message, that 20 location--they believed that that location would be 21 at risk.
22 Q. But we don't know where the family was, 23 do we?
24 A. (Mileti) Yes.
25 Q. In some cases we know they were outside COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19961 0 1 the impact area?
2 A. (Mileti) We know where the family was 3 because of question 11, "What members of your 4 household were at home when you received the 5 activation message?" If you combine the answer to 6 question 11 with the answer to question seven, we 7 can find out if the home was in the area of risk and 8 then determine whether or not or what members of the 9 family were there.
10 Q. Question 10 notes that 11 said they 11 were with family outside the area. Right?
12 A. (Mileti) That, again, was at the time l 13 of impact, which could have occurred, theoretically,
)
14 before, during or after they ever thought to drive a 15 bus, got an activation message. That was when the 16 actual event began impacting the community. The 17 evacuation theoretically could have' begun and ended 18 prior to impact.
19 I am speaking theoretically because I 20 don't recollect what--
21 Q. You don't know whether that is the case 22 in any of these accidents, do you?
23 A. (Lindell) I think there is very 24 reasonable grounds for believing that what we are 25 saying is the case because we worked cur way back l
l l COMPUTEh AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19962 0 1 through these data. And what you see is that the 2 family--when it says "with family outside the area,"
3 then that allows them to inject their knowledge that 4 even though they thought during the emergency that 5 they were at risk, that in fact they wound up not 6 being at risk. It is a point you made earlier, that 7 people's perceptions are different from the 8 objective risk. And in this case the objective risk 9 is known with certainty after the fact. But it 10 isn't known during the emergency. That is why we 11 are making this point.
12 MR. McMURRAY: Judge Gleason, I think 13 it is a good time to break. ,
14 JUDGE GLEASON: We will take a 15 10-minute break.
! 16 (Brief recess.)
17 JUDGE GLEASON: Let's begin.
18 MR. McMURRAY: At this time I would
- 19 move Exhibits 11 and 12 into evidence.
l 20 JUDGE GLEASON: Is there objection?
21 MR. ZARNLEUTER: No objection.
22 JUDGE GLEASON: Hearing none, the 23 exhibits will be moved into evidence.
24 (Suffolk County Bus Driver i
25 Exhibits 11 and 12 were received O
l COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19963' 1 in evidence.)
2 Q. On page 32 of your testimony, Mr.
3 Kelly, you discuss a call you made to FEMA 4 concerning a disaster response questionnaire.
5 A. (Kelly) Yes, I do.
6 Q. What are these disaster response 7 questionnaires?
8 A. (Kelly) These are a form that is to be 9 used by local officials to answer some basic 10 questions about the emergency response. The local 11 officials have the incentive of--well, in some cases 12 a requirement to do it if they are receiving federal 13 funds. And by filling out their form they are able 14 to get out of doing some other work that FEMA would 15 normally require.
16 The information covers a variety of 17 topics about what was done during the emergency.
18 Q. You state that you phoned FEMA 19 headquarters to find out whether the DRQ's showed 20 role abandonment to be a significant problem in past 21 emergencies. Is that right?
22 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
23 Q. Who did you talk to at FEMA I 24 headquarters?
25 A. (Kelly) I spoke with a Bruce O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19964 1 Hildebrand who is, I believe, in the Office of Civil 2 Defense, and asked him--well, I asked him more about 3 the questionnaire. They were in the process of 4 automating those questionnaires. And he went 5 through those questionnaires that he had already 6 automated. There were no questions specific to role 7 conflict. For instance, they don't say, "Was there 8 role conflict or abandonment?"
9 The two questions that might have 10 contained information about that were the last two 11 questions, which were generally, "What problems did 12 you encounter in ths evacuation?"
I r~s 13 So, he scanned through what had been U
l 14 computerized and did not come up with any 15 information about bus drivers not performing their 16 jobs or anyone not performing their jobs.
17 Subsequent to that phone call, I had 18 spoken to him again and he said that they had lately l
19 been receiving a lot more and they hadn't been input l
20 into the computer yet. Myself and an associate of 21 mine from the company went over there, spent some 22 time going through them. My associate went through l
- 23 all 300. I went through the first 20 or 25 or so l
l 24 because of another commitment. She went through 25 each of them and reported back to me that she had
(:)
l COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index l
~. . - _ - - ---
I I
l l
1 19965 )
O 1 found nothing in those questions where it might ;
2 appear to be role abandonment.
3 Q. Can you tell me the earliest disaster 4 reflected in the DRQ's?
5 A. (Kelly) I believe they started this in 6 1986, so it would be from '86 on.
7 Q. This only reflects any emergency since 8 19867 9 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
10 Q. It wouldn't, for instance, reflect TMI?
11 A. (Kelly) No. TMI was in '79.
12 Q. How many emergencies were reflected in r3 13 the DRQ's?
V 14 A. (Kelly) As I said, about 300.
15 Q. So each individual DRQ referred to a 16 different emergency?
17 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
i 18 Q. You did say that there wasn't a 19 specific question that inquired about role conflict t
20 or role abandonment. Right?
l 21 A. (Kelly) That's correct.
22 Q. On pages 33 and 34, Dr. Mileti, 23 actually going over to 35, you discuss the TMI and 24 you cite 11 or 12 articles, which I think you say on 25 the surface appear to reveal role abandonment by l
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19966 1 hospital workers. Would you turn to those pages, 2 please?
3 A. (Mileti) Yes, I have all of them.
4 Q. I will turn my question specifically to 5 page 35, if you can turn there.
6 After citing all these articles, you 7 say that they in fact don't reveal role abandonment '
8 and your reasoning is that at no time during Three 9 Mile Island was there a medical emergency.
10 Do you see that?
11 A. (Mileti) Yes, I do.
12 Q. Right in the middle of the page.
l 13 Now, I don't think we disagree, do we, 14 that a lot of medical workers such as doctors, 15 nurses, orderlies and stuff did leave the TMI area 16 during the emergency. Is that right?
17 A. (Mileti) Yes. Many did. I would have 18 to presume that some did to evacuate the area and I 19 have to presume that some did to go to the 20 conference that I reference here in San Francisco.
21 Q. You don't know how many went to the 22 conference in San Francisco, do you?
23 A. (Mileti) No. But it was a major 24 medical conference.
25 Q. In fact, are you aware of any data that O
l l
l COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index L .
19967
<~
/ 1 show how many medical personnel actually evacuated 2 as opposed to going to the convention?
3 A. (Mileti) No , I have not. However, it 4 is possible that it potentially could exist, but 5 that would only be if one of the persons who did an 6 evacuation study asked people their profession and 7 where they might have lived, but I don't know that 8 anyone did that.
9 Q. You have done some work at TMI, right, 10 on the TMI accident?
11 A. (Mileti) Yes.
12 Q. But that is not data which you looked 13 up?
14 A. (Mileti) No. I was gathering data on 15 the incidence of post-disaster stress on the public.
16 Q. And that is also not data that you 17 tried to get from other sources. Right?
10 A. (Mileti) No. I think it is safe to 19 presume that many of them evacuated.
20 Q. I would like to address your conclusion 21 that at no time during Three Mile Island was there a 22 medical emergency. I take it that the basis for 23 your statement is that, in fact, there were no 24 physical injuries that you know of that occurred 25 there. Is that right?
(
COM? UTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index l
l l
I
19968 1 A. (Mileti) That is my impression of what 2 medical people have said about the event.
3 Q. That is the basis for your saying there 4 was no medical emergency. Is that correct?
5 A. (Mileti) That's correct, yes.
6 Q. You are aware, aren't you, that 7 hospitals in the area reduced their populations at 8 the time of the omergency?
9 A. (Mileti) Yes. And I think some of 10 them even prepared to evacuate, if not did evacuate 11 the hospitals.
12 Q. You are also aware, aren't you, that 13 the Hershey Medical Center attempted to set up the l 14 Hershey sports arena to receive up to 5,000 people?
15 Is that right?
16 A. (Mileti) Yes. But as I recall, that f
17 was set up not in anticipation of potentially 5,000 18 victims but, rather, as a place where people could l 19 spend the night. That is, as shelter for people who 20 weren't at home.
21 Q. Isn't it true that part of the reason l
l 22 for setting up that sports arena was to provide 1.
23 potential services, medical services, to people?
! 24 A. (Mileti) I would have to say yes.
25 And, in fact, they even prepared for potentially O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index f
i_
I 19969 1 decontaminating people who were exposed. But as an 2 indication of how they thought that might have 3 manifested itself in the emergency, I have to say 4 that that aspect of praparedness was a rolled-up 5 garden hose, so they couldn't have been expecting 6 much.
7 Q. Or it could have been they weren't 8 sophisticated enough, right?
9 A. (Mileti) I suspect that is true, but I 10 think the Hershey Medical Center is a place that has 11 good doctors in it.
12 Q. Have you discussed with any medical 13 personnel at TMI whether they thought there was 14 actually a medical emergency?
15 A. (Mileti) I have said I have not.
16 Q. I take it you are defining a medical 17 emergency as not including any preparations that 18 might be made to receive injured or to provide 19 medical care prior to impact?
20 A. (Mileti) I am defining a medical 21 emergency as one in which, in an emergency 22 circumstance, the provision of medical attention was 23 required.
24 Q. So you are not, in your definition, 25 then, including the part of the emergency where COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword inde.5
19970
' 1 there might be anticipation of injuries?
2 A. (Mileti) I wouldn't think that that 3 would be the anticipation of injuries as opposed to 4 actually experiencing them. And as I recollect 5 saying on this issue the last time we talked about 6 it, that there is no information about whether or 7 not medical personnel were on the periphery after 8 having evacuated, for example, waiting to come and 9 volunteer or do work if there were a medical 10 emergency.
11 Q. You made a categorical statement that 12 there was no role abandonment because the medical 13 workers didn't know that they had emergency roles.
14 Are you saying now that we don't have the 15 information as to whether they knew they had 16 emergency roles?
17 A. (Mileti) No. But it is unfair to say 18 that somebody who was routinely away from work on 19 the weekend--the hospitals went down routinely to a 20 very small portion of their staff on the 21 weekends--to then say they didn't volunteer to come 22 to work because they should have anticipated that 23 there possibly could have been a medical emergency.
24 Q. You stated earlier, didn't you, that if 25 an emergency arose, say, at Shoreham--I think you O
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19971
('7d 1 said that bus drivers, even if they hadn't been told 2 they had a role would think that they did have one 3 and go and report. Haven't you said that?
4 A. (Mileti) Absolutely. And the basis 5 for that is there would have been an obvious need, 6 given the normative overlap between what they do, 7 the presumption that there was an evacuation going 8 on, thst they might have had the perception that 9 they might be useful in the evacuation since they 10 routinely drive buses. But that would be analogous 11 at TMI were there an actual emergency medically.
12 Q. Are you saying that prior to an 13 emergency no medical workers would think that there 14 was work to be done to perhaps prepare for the 15 eventuality of injuries?
16 A. (Mileti) I am sure that may have 17 occurred to some people. But there wasn't a medical 18 emergency so--
19 Q. There wasn't, we know in hindsight, but 20 they didn't know at the time, did they, that there 21 wasn't going to be a medical emergency?
22 A. (Mileti) I'd have to agree with you, 23 particularly since there was such conflicting 24 information at Three Mile Island.
25 Q. Let's talk about doctors and nurses. I
()
l COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index r
t 19972
! r'%
1 think you would agree with me that there is also 2 some normative overlap there, that they also 3 routinely respond to emergency situations. Isn't 4 that right? -
5 A. (Mileti) Well, I presume--most doctors 6 do. I certainly know a couple that don't but--
7 Q. We are not talking about plastic 8 surgeons. We are talking about the typical 9 internist or something like that. Wouldn't they 10 typically respond to emergencies?
11 A. (Mileti) Yes, I think so. One could i
12 presume emergency room work or medical work, what we
{) 13 14 might define as emergency work.
Q. Before we make the categorical i
15 statement that no medical workers thought they had 16 emergency roles, wouldn't it be a good idea to ask 17 the medical workers whether they did think they had 1
18 emergency roles?
j 19 A. (Mileti) If we asked the medical l
20 workers to reflect back on some point in history and
[
l 21 say what were your perceptions about whether or not 22 you thought you had an emergency role, that would 23 produce interview data on their perceptions. That 24 is one--one certainly could do that.
25 Q. You don't know whether anybody has done
(
l COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index l ._ - ._
19973 4
1 a survey like that to determine whether or not 2 hospital workers did, in fact, believe they had 3 emergency roles, do you?
4 A. (Mileti) I have to say no, but it is 5 possible that that might exist in some of Peter 6 Houts' data, but I don't think so.
7 Q. Did you look at Peter Houts' data for 8 that kind of information before you made this 9 statement?
10 A. (Mileti) No. I made the statement on 11 the basis of the fact that there was no medical 12 energency. And wherever we find in history or in i
13 popular accounts or M.D. 's doing sociology--I have
}
14 tried to get most of them to promise to not do 15 sociology if I promise to not do medicine, but they 16 keep doing it.
17 It is unfair to say someone abandoned a 18 role if they didn't have a role they were 19 abandoning.
20 Q. You don't even know whether any medical ,
21 personnel at Three Mile Island agreed that thera was 22 not a medical emergency, do you?
l 23 A. (Mileti) I haven't done interview data l
l 24 on them. I would have to say, because I always do, I
l 25 it is possible that some of them did. I would also
(
i COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index I-
19974
(]'
N 1 have to say I don't know if they were at work in the 2 EPZ or outside the EPZ, having evacuated, or at the 3 conference in San Francisco. It is possible some of 4 them may have thought that there was a medical 5 emergency. In fact, there wasn't one.
6 Q. In fact, to a doctor, the reduction of 7 hospital population because of a shortage of 8 personnel and the setting up of a reception center, 9 things like that could well mean to that doctor 10 there is a medical emergency going on, couldn't it?
11 A. (Mileti) I suppose it is possible, but 12 I have no information about, nor have I ever heard, t
13 having read the available data and reports at Three 14 Mile Island, that where the shelter was set up, 15 Hershey Medical Center, that it was understaffed.
16 Q. That is not my point.
17 A. (Mileti) It was a center that was set 18 up.
19 Q. The bottom line is, you don't know 20 whether your use of the term "medical emergency" 21 comports with that term as used by doctors, do you?
22 A. (Mileti) I am not an M.D. My 23 definition of a medical emergency would have been 24 that the public needed to be attended to by doctors 25 and nurses, whatever that involves.
l COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19975 1 A. (Kelly) Mr. McMurray, I might--I have 2 a point to contribata it you'd like to hear it.
3 Q. You don't sponsor the testimony, but we 4 will take you up on it.
5 A. (Kelly) I have th's opportunity to 6 review a number of emergenc', plans for hospitals and 7 most of those procedure" have notification plans 8 similar to--
9 Q. Mr. Kelly, is this on TMI?
10 A. (Kelly) No. On general practices in 11 the hospitals.
12 Q. Then let's not stray from this. Thank 13 you.
14 MR. CHRISTMAN: I object. I would like 15 the witness to finish. This goes to medical 16 emergency, obviously. That is what the question has 17 been about, the last five questions have been about l
18 that.
19 JUDGE GLEASON: He controls the course i
20 of cross-examination.
l 21 MR. CHRISTMAN: He cut off my witness l
22 in mid-answer. He allowed the answer to go forward l
i j 23 and then cut it off.
l l 24 JUDGE GLEASON: He dia.:' t understand l 25 the area which it coveted. Now it is clear he COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index l
1
19976 O 1 doesn't want to hear the testimony. He is within 2 his rights not to have the answer.
3 Q. Dr. Mileti, let's go down to the end of 4 page 35. There you discuss a publication by the 5 Pennsylvania Nationti Guard. Correct?
6 A. (Mileti) Yes.
'7 Q. I guess the bottom line of this excerpt
! 8 is that there ras some trouble mustering 9 Pennsi.vania National Guard personnel because they 10 couldn't be contacted because some of them had 11 already left. Is that the thrust of this excerpt?
12 A. (Mileti) Yes, that is indeed the j
{} 13 14 thrust. They were cal'ed up by somebody and they had already evacuated.
15 Q. And--
16 A. Or they weren't at home. 7 (Mileti) 17 shouldn't say they had evacuated. I presume most of i 18 them did.
19 Q. It is your point, isn't it, that that i
20 is not rcle abandonment because they weren't there 21 to receive the notification and therefore they f 12 didn't know they had a role and, therefore, 'ere was no abandonmont of that role. Right?
- A. (Mileti) In essence, yes. I think it 25 would be unfair to call it role abandonment for them COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
?
19977 O 1 to have not evacuated without knowing they were 2 being called up. I think it points to the issue 3 that the National Guard may want to consider early 4 notification of potential personnel so that should 5 they eve.v, themselves, evacuate an area because it 6 seemed reasonable, that the people calling them up -!
7 might be able to get in touch with them. But I 8 don't think a person in the National Guard should be 9 expected to be home at all times.
10 Q. Apparently it is not just they weren't 11 home. It is that they had evacuated. Isn't that 12 correct? It says here it was later learned many 13 perscanel had evacuated their families from the' area
(]) t 14 before being notified of possible National Guard 15 participation. I L
i j 16 A. (Mileti) Yes. And again, I think they 17 did that prior to knowing that they would be called ,
r 18 upon to respond in an emergency.
19 Q. The National Guard often responds to i 20 emergencies. Isn't that correct?
21 A. (Mileti) Yes. They used to respond to ;
r s
22 almost 411 of them, and I think they are being used l
23 a little bit less. But in general, yes, they can be l 1
24- called up. j 25 Q. Wouldn't it have been reasonable for !
(1) 1 t
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index t
h
19979 1 National Guardsmen in the vicinity oi' TMI to think 2 that they might be mobilized at THI?
3 A. (Mileti) I suppose it would have been 4 reasonable for some of them to think that and it 5 might not be reasonable for others of them to think 6 that, depending upon if their training had given 7 them any instructions along those lines and/or had 8 they ever been mobilized in emergencies before. So, 9 therefore, I think it might be for a seasoned salt 10 to have that occur to them and it might not be 11 reasonable for somecne that didn't have experience 12 or instructions along those lines.
{} 13 14 Again, that would be inventing a role or anticipating a role rather than abandoning one.
15 Q. Nevertheless, though, we don't know 16 that some of the people who evacuated with their 17 famiAles weren't, in fact, as you call them, the old 18 salts who either would have had experience or l
19 training to let them infer that they did have a 2 role. Right?
21 A. (Mileti) It is possible. But that 22 would have been persons who we were now judging 23 should have anticipated a role, which is different 24 than behaving in response to having been called and 25 then choosing to do something else.
i l
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
r.
9 19979 1 Q. Well, you stated earlier that you think 2 bus drivers ought to anticipate that they have a ,
3 role?
4 A. (Mileti) Yes. And I have explained 5 why.
6 Q. So that it in clso reasonable to think 7 that National Guardsmen should have thought that 8 they had a role. Right?
9 A. (Mileti) And it wouldn't even end 10 along that line of reasoning with National -
11 Guardsmen. We could say voluntary firemen should '
12 have anticipated that they could have had a role.
13 Persons like myself, because I am single, could have 14 anticipar,ed that I might have had a role.
15 Q. Dr. Mileti, you don't consider yourself 16 the same type of emergency worker as a National 17 Guardsman, do you?
18 A. (Mileti) No. Emergency researcher 19 and--
20 Q. You are not even at- emergency worker. ,
21 Right?
f l 22 A. (Mileti) In the sense that I'might not 23 deliver emergency services.
24 Q. Let's stick with emergency workers, t
25 then.
O COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION /heyword i.ndex L - _
19980 1 I take it, then, that if bus drivers in 2 the Shoreham area evacuated with their families 3 before they were notified that they were needed, 4 that you would not consider that an example of role 5 abandonment?
6 A. (Mileti) Well, it depends on the 7 circumstances. If someone called them up and they 8 weren't home and they had evacuated and it were at 9 10 o' clock at night, for example, and the schools 10 were closed, I wouldn't consider that role 11 abandonment.
12 Q. Let's stick with where they are being 13 called to evacuate schools.
14 Now, would that be role abandonment?
15 A. (Mileti) I wouldn't define it as role 16 abandonment if they didn't get notified that they 17 were supposed to po. I think that would be unfair.
l l 18 Q. But you have stated earlier that they 19 should infer that thsy have roles, haven't you?
20 A. (Mileti) No. I said that it was my
! 21 judgment that most of them would conclude that ' hey 22 had roles and that they would do that upon hearing 23 that schools were being evacuated or that the area l 24 was being evacuated, and they had that day driven
. 25 school children to the school. It would occur to
(
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19981 O 1 them that they might be needed.
2 Q. Let's say, then, that they evacuated.
3 Nevertheless, would you consider that an example of 4 role abandonment or would you require actual 5 notification fsr that to be called role abandonment?
6 A. (Mileti) If I were doing a 7 post-emergency audit and they didn't have that as an 8 emergency job and they were not notified that they 9 should drive the evacuation bus to the school and 10 they were not trained, I wouldn't call it role i
11 abandonment.
12 However, what I might label it versus 13 what someone else might inbel it doesn't, in my
[}
14 judgment, change what I think that group of people 15 would do, and you know what that is--which is think 16 up the idea and go to the school.
17 Q. But the medical personnel at TMI didn't 18 think up the idea that they might be needed.
19 A. (Mileti) But there wasn't a medical emergency.
20 21 Q. By your definition. You don't know 22 that by their definition there wasn't a medical 23 emergency.
24 A. (Mileti) It is true I haven't measured 25 the perception of doctors, but'I can't imagine how a COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
13982 0 1 rational human being would conclude that doctors 2 would have thought there was a medical emergency at 3 TMI. I can't imagine how a bus driver wouldn't 4 think that they might not be needed to evacuate 5 school children in an area that the whole area was 6 being evacuated and they drove those kids to school 7 that morning. I don't think they are comparable 8 events.
9 Q. Do you know at all whether or not a 10 doctor would think that preparations need to be made 11 before the actual impact of a disaster, that he 12 might have to engage in before he could provide 13 medical services?
l 14 A. (Mileti) I don't know. I'd have to 15 say that some possibly could and some possibly 16 couldn't and it would vary by, I would presume, the i 17 type of medical emergency.
18 Q. So, it could be that a doctor, knowing 19 about the possibility of an emergency, would need to l.
l 20 make preparations if he were going to respond 21 appropriately. Correct?
22 A. (Mileti) I am really way outside what l
i 23 my area of expertise is. I have to say I would 24 presume it is possible for a doctor to presume many 25 things.
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
r
=
19983 ;
(:)- 1 Q. Let's move on to the testimony about 2 Chernobyl and go through this briefly. I i
l 3 Basically, Dr. Mileti, we can't draw 4 any conclusions, solid conclusions about whether 5 role abandonment did-or did not occur at Chernobyl, 6 can we?
7 A. (Mileti) Well, it depends on what you l
8 mean by "solid." The evidence that is available, I '
9 know, to me as a social scientist in this country is 10 not what I would call hard evidence. It is rather 11 accounts that have come out through the popular
! 12 press and/or through the anecdotal accounts or [
{) 13 14 stories published by researchers who might have been there that were physicists, et cetera.
- l J l 15 Q. For instance, you cite an extract here 16 from--actually, from The New York Times, but it !
i
! 17 cites Pravda as the source as saying 1,100 buses ;
j 18 were marshaled to evacuate the area around !
t i
- 19 Chernobyl. Do you see that? !
a ;
! 20 A. (Mileti) Yes, I do. And that story I
l 21 was repeated again in The New York Times but Pravda 22 was probably their source of information. I don't r
23 know. >
24 Q. Do you consider Pravda, the Soviet [
l 25 Party newspaper, to be a reliable source for this l
()
l i
i COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index I
L __
I 19984 1 kind of information?
2 A. (Mileti) It is in fact the only source 6 3 we have got. What we were attempting to do here is 4 not present information that we would say was true 5 beyond a shadow of a doubt but, rather, present the 6 information that we had access to with appropriate 7 caveats applied to it. Even if it were sound 8 information, we still have the issue of that being 9 the Soviet Union and a communist society and there 10 are all kinds of reasons why that is a different 11 kind of society than this one.
12 Q. On page 37, let's go to question 29.
{} 13 14 Is the point there that the bus drivers could have believed their families were in danger because 15 people in Kiev were advised to keep their windows 16 closed and to wash their fruits and vegetables, but
! 17 nevertheless they vent to drive, so that that is not i 18 an example--that is an example where they may have 19 felt their families were in danger but they l 20 nevertheless drove?
l I 21 A. (Mileti) The point there is just to f
l 22 suggest that there is some information available 23 that the home town from which the published accounts l
l 24 claim the bus drivers came was not free of risk.
l l 25 Q. The area that they evacuated was
}
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index 1
m
19985 1 Pripyat, which is close to Chernobyl. Right?
2 A. (Mileti) Yes.
3 Q. These bus drivers came from Kiev, 4 right.
5 A. (Mileti) As reported in published 6 account.
7 Q. Evacuation of Pripyat was around 36 8 hours9.259259e-5 days <br />0.00222 hours <br />1.322751e-5 weeks <br />3.044e-6 months <br /> after the incident. Right? After it began?
9 A. (Mileti) Yes, as I recollect.
10 Q. Isn't it true that people in Kiev 11 weren't told to keep their windows closed and wash 12 their fruit and whatnot until many days after that?
13 A. (Mileti) I have to say I don't 14 remember that.
I 15 Q. You don't know the timing, then, for 16 when people in Kiev were advised about the danger?
17 A. (Lindell) No. What we are saying is 18 we don't know the timing on which--within which they 19 were advised to take those particular protective 20 actions. It is our impression that the information 21 got out fairly quickly. We don't remember exactly 22 when the information got to the people in Kiev as to 23 when--as to the fact that they were at risk.
24 Q. Let me try and crystallize that. You 25 don' t know whether the information about the threat r
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19986 ,
1 to Kiev came before or after the drivers were asked ,
2 to drive the buses. Right?
3 A. (Mileti) Can I take a moment to see if 4 I can find that out for you in my documents?
5 Q. How long do you think it would take?
6 A. (Mileti) I have everything in this 7 document that I had reference to underlined so it 8 might not take more than half a minute.
9 Q. Okay.
10 (Pause.)
11 A. (Mileti) Mr. McMurrey, given the time 12 line evidence I have in this document, it is so 13 close I can't tell. I can't answer your question.
~
l i 14 It may be yes, it may be no. :
15 Q. On pages 37 and going over to 38, you 16 discuss some radiological emergencies. Do you see 17 those?
18 A. (Mileti) Yes, I do.
19 Q. Did any of these involve the use of bus
, 20 drivers to evacuate any members of the public?
l
! 21 A. (Mileti) To the best of my 22 recollection, none of them involved bus drivers.
23 One incident did involve getting ready to evacuate a 24 town and mobilising big transportation, things like 25 buses. I don't know if they were bases--and getting l
}
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19987 1 ready to do that. I don't know if there were bus :
2 drivers in them or if it would be appropriate to 3 call them buses. I mean, you might want to call 4 them truck drivers. But one incident did.
5 Q. Which incident was that?
6 A. (Mileti) That was the Windscale !
7 incident in England in 1957, in which the Constable 8 cf Cumberland, which is a town in that area, was 9 notified and the reports that I have been able to 10 read in regard to that claim that he quickly 11 mobilized a motor pool to potentially evacuate 12 people from the factory and construction workers on i
() 13 the site. And that is as close as it comes to me 14 being able to find anything about bus drivers.
15 Q. Next paragraph down, you note an 16 account in a book by John G. Fuller called "We 17 Almost Lost Detroit," which discusses the Windseale 18 plant. Apparently this is an account of a scientist j 19 who packed his wife and child off. You say, "For 20 obvious reasons, we have reason to doubt even this I
j 21 report." I am not sure why you say "for obvious 22 reasons."
23 A. (Mileti) That, by the way, is the same ,
24 incident we just talked about. But in the book it l
l 25 says that this one scientist went home and got his
()
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
i i
19988 O 1 wife and kids and took off. But that is all it says 5 2 about that one scientist. It doesn't say whether or 3 not he had any sort of emergency role to fulfill, et
!- 4 cetera. So,,it is hard to judge whether or not that 5 was role abandonment because one doesn't know if he 6 had an emergency role to fulfill. But it does say 7 that one person did that.
8 Q. On page 39 of your testimony you 9 mention three radiological -three peace time 10 radiological emergencies, Three Mile Island, Ginna 11 and Chernobyl.
12 At Ginna there was no evacuation of the 13 general public, was there?
[}
14 A. (Mileti) No. But there was an l 15 off-site release.
16 Q. But no evacuation of the general 17 public?
18 A. (Mileti) No.
f 19 Q. And there were no bus drivers involved, 20 right?
21 A. (Mileti) There was no evacuation.
l
- 22 I am not, by the way, presenting any of 23 this in reference specifically to bus drivers but 24 just in an attempt to review the scraps of 25 information that do exist for evidence of role
(
i COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
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- 1 abandonment of any sort, not just in terms of bus 2 drivers. Certainly, if there were in the accounts 4 3 evidence of bus drivers, I would have put it in the 1
- 4. towtimony. A lot of my sources were even anti-nuke l 5 books, i 6 MR. McMURRAY: Judge Gleason, at this 7 time I would like the opportunity to' review my notes 8 and I think maybe, maybe prematurely, take a break
.; 9 because I think I am within a half hour or so of i
10 being done and I think I can condense it pretty 11 quickly.
12 JUDGE GLEASON: We will take a 13 10-minute break.
(
l 14 (Brief recess.)
15 JUDGE GLEASON: All right, Mr.
16 McMurray.
l l 17 MR. McMURRAY: Judge Gleason, before wo 18 start with the panel, without having conferred with 19 Mr. Miller, I suggested that we argue the LILCO 20 motion to submit supplemental testimony tomorrow 21 afternoon. I would like to defer it until Friday i 22 morning for the following reason. Tomorrow--I am i
23 going to be done with these folks today. Tomorrow i 24 Mr. Crocker is up and we expect that we are going to l
25 need all day with Mr. Crocker. In light of that, we l
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index 1
I l
19990 1 don't want to_take up what could be a lengthy amount 2 of time arguing this motion because Mr. Crocker is 3 only free tomorrow and he is not going to be here on 4 Friday. So we need tomorrow to be able to wrap up 5 with Mr. Crocker.
6 I would like to propose that we argue 7 _the matter first thing Friday morning and then the 8 Board would still be able to hear it, hopufully, 9 maybe after all the proceedings on Friday, which I 10 would guess consist mostly of cross-examination of 11 the other parties and redirect.
12 JUDGE GLEASON: I see a frown on your 13 face and I don't hear anything.
)
! 14 MR. CHRISTMAN: The cross of Mr.
l
! 15 Crocker by other parties and redirect will have to 16 take place tomorrow in any event because he will be 1
! 17 gone Friday. I think all that is left for Friday l
- 18 morning is to argue this motion and to have l
19 follow-up and redirect on these three witnesses.
, 20 MR. McMURRAY: I guess that is all the 21 more reason, if we have to do cross by the other
! 22 parties of Mr. Crocker tomorrow and redirect of Mr.
23 Crocker, that is all the more reason why we need all l 24 the time tomorrow for our cross and it can't be i
j 25 taken up by this argument. I don't think--
(
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
19991 s
1 JUDGE GLEASON: I guess I am trying to 2 figure out why it should take you all day tomorrow 3 to finish with Mr. Crocker?
4 MR. McMURRAY: Mr. Miller informs me 5 that that is how long it is going to take. Given 6 the fact that there is going to be cross by other 7 parties and redirect, perhaps, by LILCO, that seems 8 to be a pretty full day.
9 JUDGE GLEASON: Let's go on and see how 10 it goes. I don't want to rule on anything now.
11 Let's move along and see where we are by noon 12 tomorrow somewhere.
13 BY HR. McMURRAY:
14 Q. Dr. Mileti, on pages 40 and 41, you 15 describe a study you did which included interviews 16 with families regarding certain earthquake 17 prediction scenarios. Do you see that?
18 A. (Mileti) Yes.
19 Q. And at the top of page 41 you state 20 that "Our study concluded that a scientifically 21 credible earthquake prediction would result in large 22 social and economic costs." Do you see that?
i 23 A. (Mileti) Yes, I do.
24 Q. Can you explain what you mean by "large l 25 social and economic costs"? I guess specifically,
(
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION /keystord index
y ,
19992 0 1 what behavior are you referring to there?
2 A. (Mileti) There were many. But, for 3 example, that society in the area for which the 4 earthquake was predicted would begin to absorb the 5 costs of the earthquake that was anticipated prior 6 to its occurring. For example, a slight and then 7 increasing outflux of population, a decrease in the 8 sale of durable goods, a decrease in taxes.
9 I am pausing because it has been a long 10 time since I have done the study. But all the other 11 kinds of associated socio-econouie impacts that 12 could be associated with anticipating a disaster.
(} 13 Q. Now, further down in that paragraph you 14 say that Professor Turner, in studying the actual 15 response to an earthquake prediction in Los Angeles 16 County, found that people of Los Angeles County 17 showed few of the perverse effects that are often 18 given as reasons for withholding a soundly based but 19 uncertain earthquake forecast.
20 Do you see that?
21 A. (Mileti) Yes.
22 Q. Do you know what he was referring to 23 when he spoke about perverse effects?
24 A. (Mileti) I have to say I don't know.
25 Q. Do you know whether he was referring to COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
f I
19993 1 the same factors that you were referring to when you 2 spoke of large social and economic costs? i 3 A. (Mileti) I'd have to say I don't know. I 4 However, I have had enough conversations and been at ;
5 enough conversations with Ralph to know that our 6 study projected social disruption from an earthquake f
7 prediction and his study did not detect social ,
8 disruption. !
9 Our study looked at and tried to i 10 appraise changes in government, changes in 11 corporations in the private sector, as well as :
12 changes in family life. As I recollect, his study ;
j 13 focused more on family life. But the bottom line j
[}
j 14 was, even though we may have been, and I am sure did l 15 look at different things, and some things that were '
16 similar, that he found nor.e of the negative things 1
f 17 ue portrayed, and we projected that there would be 18 some. L 19 Q. But you don't know that he was looking ;
20 for the same things that you were looking for?
21 A. (Mileti) But he reached the general i P
22 conclusion that there were none and ws reached the [
23 general conclusion that there would be some. I f
24 just--
25 Q. I am not sure you are comparing the l f
(:)
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCR7PTION/ keyword index l i
19994 ,
1 same thing when yoa talk about what he was looking ,
2 for and what you were looking for. l 3 A. (Mileti) Changes in society. Included 4 in our study were changes that would occur to .
5 individuals. Included in his study were changes 6 that would occur to individuals and families. We 7 projected negative impacts. Observed none. He 8 observed a lot of media attention every time new 9 information about the earthquake prediction was i
\
10 given out in southern California and would detect i 11 that it would fall off eventually and then go back 12 up when new stories were released and then fall off. .
o 13 but that no social dislocations or impacts occurred.
14 So, it indeed may be the case that he l 15 had different questions on his questionnaire than we
! 16 had. But we were studying the same phenomena. It 17 wasn't a social experiment in which we used the same 18 instrument. ,
19 Q. Let's go to page 43. Here you give 20 alternative explanations for the data in Professor ;
1 21 Cole's bus driver survey. Isn't that right?
22 A. (Mileti) Yes. I do, with Dr. Lindell?
23 Q. That's right. Let me direct this, 24 though, to you, Dr. Mileti. Professor Cole's bus 25 driver survey was conducted in 1982. Isn't that l0 :
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
. ~ - . ., -,
19995 i
t 4
1 correct?
2 A. (Mileti) As I recollect, I think 3 that's true. [
4 Q. You say that one alternative is that !
5 the survey questions are assessing the bus driver's 6 attitudes toward the utility company. Do you have
, 7 any data on what the attitude of the public was
., 8 towards LILCO in 1982?
l 3 A. (Mileti) No data in the sense that 1 ;
l 10 did a poll. Data in the sense that I was aware !
4 1 11 that, from published accounts, that it seems like in !
4 12 general the public on Long Island liked LILCO. But ;
l i
{} 13 14 I didn't have it quantified. And even then it seemed like the public on Long Island was against [
i 15 Shoreham. ,
l 16 I would consider these hearings and how ;
I I
l-17 long they have gone on, in that sense, even data. :
L <
l 18 Q. These hearings, though, didn't begin I l t 19 until very late 1983. Are you certain that you l i l
20 are--strike that. l I
21 A. (Mileti) Was that a question? l i
22 Q. No. I am taking the statement that -
l 23 these proceedings didn't begin until very late 1983.
[
24 Isn't it true that there was no measure of the ,
25 public's opposition to LILCO or to Shoreham until i
(
I l l COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index i
l 19996
( 1 after this bus driver survey was conducted? l 2 A. (Mileti) I don't know of any polls 3 that were taken on Long Island, but I do remember 4 writing testimony even about role conflict in 1982.
5 Now, maybe it wasn't called testimony. Maybe it was 6 called response to interrogatories or some other 7 kind of way of labeling. But it was definitely 8 words about role conflict and other issues in '82.
9 But you are right, the hearings didn't begin until 10 '83, 11 Q. On page 45 you discuss question 26 of 12 Professor Cole's new firemen survey. Do you see 7 13 that?
(V 14 A. (Mileti) Yes.
15 Q. Isn't it true that Professor Cole draws 16 his conclusions about what firemen would do in an 17 emergency from questions that are stated before 18 question 26?
19 A. (Mileti) It may well be. I didn't 20 have time. I have to--I didn't have time to do a 21 detailed review or critique of his poll. In fact, I 22 don't enjoy critiquing Steven's poles. I am glad I 23 didn't have time. So that may well be. This was 24 just looking at it in a few hours and chatting with 25 Mary Jo Leugers, in fact, over the phone when I got COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index
i 19997 O 1 done about anything that might come to mind in a 2 quick reading. ;
3 MR. McMURRAY: Judge Gleason, at this 4 time I have no further questions for this panel with 5 one qualification. I would like to take a look at 6 the article that Dr. Mileti was reviewing. I think 7 it was regarding Chernobyl and, if necessary, 8 tomorrow come back with one or two questions. There 9 may be absolutely no reason to do that. I just want 10 to look at what he was looking at to make sure that 11 he reported the data correctly, and I am sure he i 12 did.
13 JUDGE GLEASON: Do you have any i 14 objection to that? !
15 MR. CHRISTMAN: Why don't we just put 16 the article into the record right now? Tomorrow i
17 morning we will make copies. L 18 MR. McMURRAY: I would still like to ;
19 look at it.
20 JUDGE GLEASON: I understand. I just 21 asked if he has any objections.
I 22 MR. CHRISTMAN: No.
23 MR. McMURRAY: The other thing is, 24 obviously we can't close this because Mr. Crocker is 25 not here. There are a couple of questions on one !
l L
COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index p
l f
19998 1 page, I think it is page 25--I am not sure--that Mr. >
2 Crockwr sponsors that I would like to start with 3 tomorrow. That should take only a few minutes and 4 then Mr. Miller will continue. But I have no 5 further questions with those qualifications for this 6 panel.
7 JUDGE GLEASON: Are these gentlemen's 8 presence going to be required with respect to Mr. ;
9 Crocker's cross-examination? .
10 MR. McMURRAY: I guess only if LILCO 11 wants them here. Of course, there is I
12 cross-examination by the other parties that has to
(} 13 14 be done, and redirect.
JUDGE GLEASON: All right. We will 15 stand in recess until tomorrow at 9 o' clock.
16 (Time noted: 4:00 p.m.)
17 18 19 20 f
21 I l
22 23 }
t 24 !
25 CE) !
i COMPUTER AIDED TRANSCRIPTION / keyword index l h
1 CFRTIFICATE 2
3 This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the 4 United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the matter of:
5 Names LONG ISLAND LIGHTING COMPANY (Shoreham Nuclear Power Station, Unit 1) 7 Docket Number: 50-322-OL-3 8 Place: Washington, D.C.
9 Date May 19, 1988 10 were held as herein appears, and that this is the original 11 transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear 12 Regulatory Commission taken stenographically by me and, 13 thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under the direction 14 of the court reporting company, and that the transcript is a 15 true and accurate record of the foregoing proceedings.
16 /S/ 3 I p I o .* ffsla sw 17 (Signature typed): Debra Stevens 18 Official Reporter 19 Heritage Reporting Corporation I
20 i
21 22 23 24 25
) Corporation Heritage Reporting (202) 628-4888