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4 OFFICIALTRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 4
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W U.S.'. Nuclear Regulatory Commission 1
e' Tide Interview of Robert Earl Neal 4
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a t-Page 1 BEFORE THE U. S. NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION In the Matter of
)
)
INVESTIGATIVE INTERVIEW OF
)
)
ROBERT EARL NEAL
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Conference Room
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Administration Building Vogtle Electric Generating Plant Waynesboro, Georgia Thursday, May 7, 1992 The above-entitled matter convened for t
INVESTIGATIVE INTERVIEW, pursuant to notice at 11:09 a.m.
l APPEARANCES:
On behalf of the U.St Nuclear.Reaulatory Commission LARRY R. ROBINSON, Investigator U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission Office of Investigations Suite 2900, 101 Marietta Tower Atlanta, Georgia 30303 e
-and-BRIAN R. BONSER, Senior Resident Inspector U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission Vogtle Electric Generating Plant j
Waynesboro, Georgia On behalf of the Witness:
JOHN LAMBERSKI, Attorney Troutman, Sanders, Lockerman & Ashmore 1400 Candler Building j
127 Peachtree Street i
Atlanta, Georgia
e Page 2 1
PROCEEDINGS 2
MR. ROBINSON:
For the record, this is an interview 3
of -- is it Robert Neal?
4 MR. NEAL:
Robert Neal, yes, sir.
5 MR. ROBINSON:
Employee of Georgia Power Company at 6
the vogtle Electric Generating Plant.
7 It's Thursday, May 7, 1992, it's 11:09 a.m.
8 Present at the' interview are Mr. Neal, Mr. Brian 9
Bonser, the Senior Resident Inspector of NRC at Plant Vogtle, i
10 Investigator Larry L. Robinson of the Office of q
11 Investigations of NRC, Region II, and Mr. John Lamberski of 12 the firm of Troutman, Sanders, Lockerman s: Ashmore, who to my 13 understanding represents both you as an individual, Mr. Neal, 14 today and Georgia Power Company, as a corporation.
15 MR. NEAL:
Yes, sir.
16 MR. ROBINSON:
Do you have any problems, Mr. Neal, i
17 with Mr. Lamberski's representation of both you and the l
18 company?
19 MR. NEAL:
No, sir, I do not.
j 20 MR. ROBINSON:
Okay.
21 Mr. Lamberski, why don't you briefly state the H22 nature of your representation here today.
I 23 MR. LAMBERSKI:
I think you correctly stated it.
24 I'm here representing both Georgia Power Company as a 25 corporation and Mr. Neal personally.
l 1
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1 MR. ROBINSON:
Okay.
Mr. Neal, do you have any 2
objections to being sworn to your testimony?
3 MR. NEAL:
No, sir, I do not.
4 MR. ROBINSON:
Will you please stand and raise your 5
right hand?
6 Whereupon, 7
ROBERT EARL NEAL 1
1 8
appeared as a witness herein, and having been first duly 9
sworn,.was examined and testified as follows:
10 EXAMINATION 11 BY MR. ROBINSON:
12 Q
Please state your full name for the record.
13 A
Robert Earl Neal.
14 Q
And what is your current job title here at Plant 15 Vogtle?
16 A
I'm an Instruments and Controls T Jreman.
i 17 Q
And what was your job on January 28, 19927 18 A
Instruments and Controls Foreman.
2 19 Q
How long have you been an employee of Georgia 20 Power?
21 A
Seventeen years.
22 Q
How long have you been here at the Vogtle site?
23 A
Since '83.
~
24 Q
Has it all been pretty much in the IEC area?
25 A
Yes, sir.
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Q What I would like for you -- what we are going to 2
talk about today, Mr. Neal, is an event that occurred back on 3
January 28 of 1992, when two instrument and control 4
technicians, J.D. Davis and I guess it's Murcel Wilkins?
5 A
Marcel Wilkins.
6 Q
Marcel Wilkins -- were conducting a surveillance 7
procedure involving -- what was the system, Brian?
8 MR. BONSER:
It's my understanding it was an ACOT 9
procedure on --
10 MR. LAMBERSKI That's A-C-O-T, all caps.
11 MR. ROBINSON:
Which stands for?
12 MR. BONSER:
Analog channel operational test.
13 MR. ROBINSON:
Okay.
14 MR. BONSER:
And it was on this loop.
15 MR. ROBINSON:
Okay, for the record, "this loop" is 16 loop number IT-431, the title of the test'is the Delta T, 17 TAVG Loop 3 Protection Channel Number 3.
18 BY MR. ROBINSON:
19 Q
What TAVG stand for, Mt. --
20 A
T average.
21 Q
T average, I see.
4 22 Are you familiar with the circumstances of what I'm 23 talking about here?
24 A
Yes, sir, I am.
25 Q
In your own words, would you please tell me if you
l Page 5 j
1 became involved in this analog channel operational test in 2
any way?
3 A
Yes, sir, I was notified by Mr. Davis that we had a 4
bistable that was out of tolerance, was not within our 5
expected limit, high or low.
I went out and examined this, 6
examined his setup, verified that the value he had on the 7
sheet 4"as coming out of the rack, notified him to write a DC 8
card, notified Mr. Marcel to get a QC inspector, and when 9
everybody was together have them go in and make adjustments 10 to bring our bistable back into tolerance by procedure.
11 Q
Okay.
Are the technicians required to call you in 12 when they find an out-of-tolerance situation?
l 13 A
Yes, sir, they are by procedure.
It's in our 14 procedure that if they find an out-of-tolerance, they have to 15 notify me before they can touch it.
16
,Q I see.
Is there a specific procedure that your j
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17 technicians are supposed to follow to do this calibration or o
18 reset?
j 19 A
By the procedure they were doing, when it comes to 20 the part that we have an out-of-tolerance and we have to make 21 adjustments, procedure notifies them to get the 23300 22 procedure, field calibration procedure, to work along with 23 them to make their adjustments to get the bistable back in.
24 Q
So they should have known -- did they know what 25 procedure they needed to use at that time?
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A To my best recollection, yes, sir.
2 Q
Had they been trained in the use of that procedure?
3 A
Yes, sir.
4 Q
Did you tell them to use that procedure?
l 5
A No, sir, I did not tell them to use that procedure.
s 6
Q Okay.
Did you assume that they knew to use that i
7 calibration procedure?
{
8 A
Yes, sir.
9 Q
Okay.
When they -- did they call you on the phone
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i 10 and notify you of the out-of-tolerance situation?
11 A
Yes, sir, I was in the sop at the time and they 12 were in the control room.
I 13 Q
Who was it -- which of the two was it that called j
14 you?
15 A
I believe it was J.D. Davis that called.
16 Q
Okay, and what did he tell you?
17 A
He said we've got a value that is out on a bistable
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18 and it's going to have to be adjusted.
I said all right, 19 I'll be out there in a second.
20 Q
And do any of these documents that you see before i
21 you here reflect the values that they found as far as an out-22 of-tolerance situation?
j i
23 A
Yes, sir.
This data sheet here --
24 Q
All right, let the record reflect that he's talking i
25 about the Analog Channel Test Data Sheet for loop number IT-1 i
l Page 7 1
431 that we described earlier.
Okay, go ahead.
2 A
All right, this value here in the as-found section 3
is the value that they had obtained.
4 Q
Let the record reflect that he is pointing to the 5
value 4.130 that is on the 10th line down, headed 1TL/431H i
6 extinguished in the as-found column.
Sorry we've got to do
)
7 that.
8 A
That's all right.
One thing I would like to back 9'
up and correct.
You asked me a question about did I tell 10 them to use the procedure.
Were you inquiring about the 11 23300 procedure or this procedure?
12 Q
I was inquiring about the full calibration l
13 procedure required to --
14 A
I instructed them to make adjustments by procedure, 15 which by this procedure it instructs them to get the 23300.
16 Q
Okay.
I l
17 A
And you have a copy of that.
18 Q
Okay, when you say "this procedure" you were j
I 19.
pointing to a test data sheet --
l 20 A
I am talking about procedure 24812-1.
'21 Q
Right.
I'll now show you pages I guess 65 and 66 22 of procedure 24812-1.
Is that the procedure you're referring 23 to?
24 A
Yes, sir, that is the procedure I'm referring to.
25 Q
Okay.
All right, go ahead with your explanation.
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'The 4.130 figure was the as-found figure?
2 A
Yes, sir.
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3 Q
And it was out of tolerance?
E 4
A It was out of tolerance.
We have a high/ low limit 5
on the ACOT data sheet here that you can see that the 6
expected value is 3.994, low limit of 3.894, high limit of 7
4.094.
i 8
Q I see.
9 A
Therefore the 4.130 as found value is outside of 10 the expected and high/ low limits, it is unacceptable.
11 Q
All right.
Did you stay there and see what they 1
12 did to correct this situation?
13 A
No, sir, I did not.
14 Q
Howlongapproxpmatelywouldyousayyouwerewith l
15 them and verified that you had an out-of-tolerance situation?
16 A
I was with them a good 20 minu,tes waiting on QC to 17 arrive and making sure that everybody was notified, the SS as 18 well as the OSos.
And once QC arrived -- there's limited 19 space where this work is to be done, I excused myself to 20 allow the gentlemen and the QC to do their job.
I went 21 around front and talked with the SS and the OSOS in the 22 horseshoe.
23 Q
Do you remember who the QC gentleman was?
24 A
Mr. Roy Whitaker.
25 Q
So to your knowledge, Mr. Whitaker observed the --
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whatever your IEC technicians did to correct the out-of-2 tolerance situation?
3 A
Yes, sir.
4 Q
Is that a requirement for him to stay there and 5
observe that?
6 A
His requirement is to assure that the as-left data 7
is within tolerance.
8 Q
I see.
9 A
And everything is right there where they're making 10 the adjustments and the meters that he needs to look at.
11 MR. LAMBERSKI You might want to explain what as-12 left data means.
13 BY MR. ROBINSON:
14 Q
As-left data is evidently once you make your 15 adjustments, you take another reading, is that correct?
16 A
Yes, sir.
The final reading that you walk away and 17 leave it in the cabinet for these bis, tables.
18 Q
Does the IEC tech take that reading or does the QC i
19 guy take that reading?
20 A
The IEC takes the reading, the QC also verifles.
21 He's looking at the same meter that the IEC tech is looking 22 at.
23 Q
Okay.
And I guess since it's a hold point, the QC 24 guy should probably stay there and observe the procedure or -
25
- excuse me -- could the QC guy leave and then come back and
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just get an as-left reading and still be doing his job?
)
2 A
No, sir.
j l
3 Q-He couldn't.
Okay.
So the as-left reading was j
4 3.990, which was apparently within tolerance.
5 A
Yes, sir.
j 6
Q What else happened within that day or the next day 7
regarding this particular resetting of the calibration, to 8
your knowledge?
9 A
To my knowledge, I was questioned the next even'ing j
10 upon arrival as to what did' Marcel and J.D. do and I told 11 them the same thing that I told you and showed them data 12 sheet for the supposed correction.
13 Q
Okay.
Let the record reflect that we're now 14 talking about a document entitled Data Sheet 37, Procedure
)
i 15 Number 24812-1, apparently dated 1/28/92, reviewed by R.E.
l 16 Neal,, performed by -- can you identify that?
17 A
Marcel Wilkins.
i 18 Q
-- Marcel Wilkins and approved by --
19 A
Mark Seymour.
20 Q
-- Mark Seymour.
What -- who is Mark Seymour?
21 A
Mark Seymour is a supervisor in IEC Department.
22 Q
And what connection does this Data sheet 37 have 23 with the Analog Channel Operational Test Data Sheet that we 24 described earlier?
25 A
The bistable that was adjusted to get the as-left s
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Page 11 1
value of -- 3.990 it is?
'2 Q
Right, 3.990.
J 3
A This Data Sheet 37 is where they.should have went 4
to make that adjustment to bring this value down so that the 5
and result here is what we were after.
6 Q
I'm a little confused, are you saying that the as-
[
7 found and the as-left numbers on the Data Sheet 37 should 8
have corresponded with the as-found and as-left numbers on --
3 9
A No, sir.
j 10 Q
Okay, explain that.
11 A
No, sir, I'm not.
The as-found, as-left data on, I
12 Data Sheet 37 is on a 0 to 10 system.
j i
13 Q
Okay.
14 A
That system is converted for the ACOT to a 1 to 5 15 system.
16 MR. BONSER:
Those are volts DC, righ,t?
17 THE WITNESS:
Volts, DC.
18 BY MR. ROBINSON:
19 Q
Okay.
So is it just a straight 2-to-1 ratio?
20 A
Fairly close to it, but there's nothing just 21 straight.
22 Q
Is there a calculation that is required to compare 23 Data Sheet Number 37 or are the figures that are handwritten 24 in there actually measured figures?
25 A
They are measured figures.
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i Page 12 l
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Q Are they measured at the same points?
1 i
2 A
No, these are measured on the NAL-2 card that is in 3
this slot in the rack.
4 Q
Okay.
1 These points are measured at a different location 5
A 6
that' is set up in the front part of the procedure.
7 Q
All right.
8 A
These are end-result cards of going through the 9
loop at various points to get -- it's like a train, you've 10 got the engine and caboose and you've got different cars in I
11 between, and this is one of the cars in between the engine j
l 12 and caboose, this is the final figures you would get off the a
ca'oose.
i 13 b
j 14 Q
Okay, when you're ;21 king about the final figures l
15 coming off the caboo'se, let the record reflect that he's 16 talking about an Ana' log Channel Operational Test Data Sheet 4
17 1.
And the document we identified as Data Sheet 37, is that 18 the engine?
19 A
That'd be the cars in the middle.
20 Q
And the correlation should be -- between these two 21 should be basically 2-to-1, not necessarily exactly?
i 22 A
Right.
If you'll notice that 7.13 is virtually 23 three-quarters of a 10 volt scale, 3.9 is three-quarters of a 24 1-to-5 scale.
]
25 MR. BONSER: What I wanted to ask was, this is the i
4 a
Page 13 i
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sheet where they should have made the adjustments?
i 2
THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir.
3 MR. BONSER:
In that part of the procedure.
Which
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4 procedure is this from?
5 THE WITNESS:
This is from the Delta T, your delta 6
T loop is 158 pages, calibration as well as just the ACOT.
7 The ACOT portion only covers a small raection in the front.
8 When you do your 18-month calibration, you have a long-drawed 9
out process. All that's also covered under the same
)
10 procedure.
But if you have to make individual card 11 adjustments, we're required to go to that to tell us which
]
12 points to adjust, and that being the 23300 procedure.
13 MR. BONSER:
Okay, so when you do that procedure, l
14 you use this sheet here?
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15 THE WITNESS:
I will use this sheet, yes, sir.
16 MR. ROBINSON:
"This sheet" being Data Sheet 37?
17 THE WITNESS:
37.
o 18 MR. BONSER:
So they used Data Sheet 37 to make the 4
I 19 adjustments?
20 THE WITNESS:
That is the sheet they should have 21 used.
22 MR. BONSER:
Should have used, okay.
4 23 BY MR. ROBINSON:
24 Q
And what in fact happened, to your knowledge?
25 A
From what I have been told, they did not go to this 1
1
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i section of the. procedure, did not use the 23300 procedure.
2 They made adjustments on the bistable at the front part of 3
the loop here that we're reading, or the end part of the 4
loop, excuse-me.
l 5
Q And so are you saying that to your knowledge that 6
the filled in numbers on Data Sheet 37 are not taken from
}
7 readings, that they're just --
8 A
That is'what I'm being told.
9 Q
-- put in there. -Okay.
Approximately what time of 10 day on January 28 would you have signed this Data Sheet 37 as 11 a reviewer?
12 A
Somewhere between the time of 6:00 a.m. and 7:00 13 a.m.
14 Q
Would that have been kind of at the time you would 15 be going off shift?
16 A
That was at the and of my shift, yes, sir.
17 Q
And is your signing of these sheets a routine part 18 of your end-shift administrative requirement?
19 A
Yes, sir, it is.
'20 Q
- Okay, 21 A
I have to review the data that has been placed on 22 them and ensure that it is within the high/ low 1Laits and 23 expected value and approve it or send it back to the field.
24 Q
Okay.
Are all of the handwritten figures on this 25 particular sheet done without readings, to your suspicion or 3
Page 15 1
knowledge, or just some of them?
2 A
(No response.)
3 Q
Do you understand the question?
4 A
No, sir, explain that a little more.
5 Q
I have eight handwritten numbers on this data 6
sheet.
Of those eight numbers, to your knowledge, how many 7
of them were written without taking actual readings?
8 A
Okay. To my knowledge now, all eight numbers were -
9 10 0
I see.
11 A
-- wrote in.
12 Q
In the process of reviewing.this Data Sheet 37, do 13 you compare it to the -- did you compare it to the Analog 14 Channel Operational Test Data Sheet?
15 A
Yes, sir, I do.
You'll notice that on line 3 and 4 16 of Data Sheet 37, there has been a different value between 17 the as-found and as-left.
It is a difference between 7.262 18 and 7.132 for output 2 and 7.143 to 7.013.
That value is a i
19 small adjustment down, which I took it as being what brought 20 the value down into the expected value off the ACOT data 21 sheet from 4.130 to 3.930.
22 Q
I see.
So in your review and comparison of the two 23 sheets, everything appeared as it should be.
l 24 A
Yes, sir.
25 Q
Okay, were you aware at the time --
4
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A No, sir.
2 Q
I'll finish my question -- were you aware at the 3
time that these figures had not come from readings and had 4
just been placed in there?
5 A
No, sir, I was not.
6 Q
Okay.
To your knowledge, how was it discovered 7
that these readings were not bona fide readings?
And I'm 8
referring to the readings on Data Sheet 37.
9 A
To my knowledge, the day shift, either the 28th or 10 the 29th, went out and made the actual field' check and 11 adjusted -- made the proper adjustments per a work order, and 12 I do not remember the number right off the top of My head.
j 13 But we have a copy of it.
And that's when I was notified 14 that these numbers were not true numbers and that was my 15 first recollection of those ausbars not being valid numbers.
'16 Q
Why would the day shift have gone out and redone l
17 the procedure?
9 18 A
The alarms -- a alarm started coming in on the 2
19 delta T loop that this bistable triggers.
20 Q
Okay.
21 A
That alarm started coming in and out during day 22 shift operation on the day shift of the 28th.
They went out 23 with a recorder, plugged into different points, checked 24 different values and then started -- that started suspicion 25 of something not being right.
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Q Okay.
i 2
A And that started the investigation into looking 3
into different things and they was reviewing packages because i
4 they knew I had just -- my technicians had just performed 2
5 this loop and this was the loop that was giving us problems.
6 They immediately pulled up the old data and started comparing 7
to what was now in the field.
8 Q
When you say they were doing an investigation, do 9
you know who was doing that investigation?
10 A
The -- Scott Hammond is the supervisor that was in 1
11 charge and the actual foreman and technicians, I'm not real j
12 sure.
I believe if you contact them, they could let you know I
13 more on that.
i 14 Q
Okay.
I 15 MR. BONSER:
Do you know anything about one i
]
16 procedure having not been revised correctly?
It was --
17 something had come up about there had been a recent revision 18 of the procedure and one of the sheets had been revised and l
19 one of the data sheets had not been revised.
Could you 3
20 explain that?
Because I think that was probably the reason 21 behind a lot of this happening.
22 THE WITNESS:
My knowledge is procedure 24812 had 23 just recently been revised with new values in our expected, 24 high/ low limit for several of the bistables, due to the new 25 fuel that we're now using.
This particular bistable values
Page 18 1
were-missed in the review and readying --
2 MR. BONSER:
That's the ACOT procedure?
3 THE WITNESS:
That's the ACOT procedure, a portion 4
that they had failed to catch the wrong values in.
In the 5
calibration part of it, there was the correct values and 6
that's what got the whole thing.
The calibration part was 7
correct, but that was not the section at the time we were 8
using.
We were using the ACOT portion.
If the correct 9
values were there, we would have -- there would have been no 10 problem because they would have been right into the values 11 that we needed. Do you follow what I'm saying?
This should 12 have been this value or fairly close to it with the high/ low 13 limit.
And that now has been corrected.
14 BY MR. ROBINSON:
15 Q
With respect to the Analog Channel Operational Test 16 Data Sheet, do you have any reason to'believe that the as-17 left figure was not a correct figure?
18 A
No, sir.
That is what got us -- the alarms coming 19 in is the value was lowered to this, which brought it closer 20 to the alarm point and the new fuel made us now peak up and 21 go into this portion because it was lower than what was 22 originally there.
23 Q
So you're saying that the high limit in the new 24 situation should have been or was in fact lower than 3.990?
25 A
I'm confused about what you're asking now.
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Q You're saying that the 3.990 figure on your ACOT 2
Test Data Sheet --
3 A
Yes, sir.
4 Q
-- in the.as-left column, that value was too close 5
to the point that would be causing alarms to go off, is that 6
correct?
7 A
Yes, sir.
8 Q
So it needed to be set lower?
9 A
No, higher.
10 Q
Needed to be set higher, I see.
11 A
It needed to be set where it was found.
12 Q
I see.
13 A
If we had the proper values here and here, we woulu 14 have never made an adjustment here, everything would have 15 been fine, there would have been no problem.
16 Q
I see.
17 A
And we lowered the value, brought it closer to the 18 actual trip setting, based on these values.
19 Q
Oh, okay. So the printed high limits and low limits 20 on your data sheet were not what they should have been at 21 that time he was doing that.
22 A
Yes, sir, that is correct.
23 Q
So that ended up causing him to make an adjustment 24 that he really shouldn't have made.
25 A
Should never have touched.
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NR. DONSER:
So what you're saying is the as-found l
2
' reading was the right reading in fact.
3 THE WITNESS:
Was a true, valid, good reading.
4 MR. BONSER:
And if they had gone to Data Sheet 37 l
5 and actually done these adjustments according to this l
6 procedure, they would have ended up again with the 4.130.
j 7
THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir, that they would have.
8 BY'MR. ROBINSON:
)
9
'Q It's my understanding, and maybe you're going to 10 have to correct me if I'm wrong, if they would have conducted
{
11 a test and obtained the 4.130 reading and they would have 12 recognized that 4.130 was within tolerance -- okay?
13 A
Yes, sir.
14 Q
-- they wouldn't have done any adjustment.
15 A
No adjustments would have been made.
16 Q
Okay, so moving over here to Data Sheet 37 --
17 A
Would have never been done.
i o
18 Q
That one wouldn't even have been done.
l 19 A
Would never have been done.
1 20 Q
So the only reason you do Data Sheet 37 is when you 21 need to make adjustments.
22 A
Yes, sir.
23 Q
Oh, okay, I see.
We've probably talked in general 24 about a lot of the questions -- I'm going to ask you a list i
25 of very specific questions that the NRC Enforcement people i
..a 1
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f Page 21 I
want answered.
We may have talked in general about these i
j 2
questions and it may be a repetition in some cases, but I'm 3
just going to read the questions to you verbatim.
If you 4
understand it, just give me an answer to the question.
If 5
you've already answered it, just go ahead and answer it
)
6 again.
i 7
A Okay.
8 Q
What information was given to you by the 1
l 9
responsible IEC technicians during the conduct of the 10 surveillance on the' RPS instrumentation on January 28, 1992?
11 MR. LAMBERSKI Do you understand the question, 12 Bob?
1
]
13 THE WITNESS:
I didn't understand that at all.
l l~
14 BY MR. ROBINSON:
15 Q
Okay, when they called you -- when they first
}
16 notified you that there was an out-of-tolerance.
From that 17 point to the end of your shift, what communications did you i
18 have with those individuals -- what did they tell you?
i 19 A
As I stated earlier, they contacted me, I went to 20 the control room, observed the reading, checked out the setup 21 and then initiated a DC card, which the SS determined was not 22 necessary, I had them call QC and instructed them to go in l
23 and make the appropriate adjustments as necessary.
4 24 Q
Okay, that's what you told them to do.
I'm kind of l
25 interested in what they told you, any communication they gave t
I t
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1 g-0
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1 to you.
Was there any indication to you that -- to ths I
i 2
effect that, "to do a recalibration on this thing is going to 3
take too long, can we just reset these things per the ACOT 4
procedure" -- was there any conversation like that?
j 5
A Yes, sir, and my statement was get everybody that's 6
got to get together and let's do what we've got to do.
i j
7 Q
Okay.
So they suggested resetting the points using 8
an ACOT procedure as opposed to the full calibration 9
procedure I guess in 233007 10 A
They asked did we want to make the adjustments by 11 this.
I said we make the adjustments by the way procedure i
12 tells us.
13 Q
Okay.
14 A
That includes this procedure as well as the 23300.
15 Q
Okay, so it is permissible for them to make some 16 adjustments per the ACOT procedure?
Per ACOT, wherein they take, values only, there is 17 A
18 no adjuvements in ACOT.
19 Q
Right, okay.
20 A
I mean we make adjustments with our test equipment 21 to obtain values, but we do not tweak anything in tbs rack.
22 Q
Yeah, the ACOT procedure is a test procedure.
If 23 things are found out of tolerance, you go to the 23300
?
24 procedure to make the calibrations.
25 A
Yes, sir.
\\
i i
l 4
Page 23 4
1 Q
Okay.
)
2 l
2 MR. LAMBERSKI Point of clarification.
]
3 3
MR. ROBINSON:
Sure.
4 MR. LAMBERSKI The ACOT procedure does direct the 4
5 technician to go to 23300 to do the calibration, so I
6 indirectly maybe it does instruct them to do the calibration.
7 BY MR. ROBINSON:
)
8 Q
I see.
But no place does it allow them to use the i
9 test configuration setup to do the calibration as such, l
10 right?
l 11 A
I would have to go through the procedure and read 1
12 it again and compare.
I can't answer that one right off the 13 top of my head.
14 Q
Okay.
15 MR. BONSER:
But ACOTs are not used to make 16 adjustments.
17 THE WITNESS:
No, sir.
o 18 MR. BONSER:
You have to go to a different 19 procedure to make the adjustments.
i 20 THE WITNESS:
Procedure tells you right here that 21 if you as-found values under ACOT are not acceptable, to go 22 to the appropriate 23300 and section of the card.
s 23 MR. BONSER:
And that is done throughout IEC, is my J
24-understanding, you do not make adjustments in ACOTs, you go a
25 to a cal procedure --
i h
l l
)
Page 24-1 THE WITNESS:
You go to the cal portion of the
)
2 procedure.along with your field cal for the cards.
3 BY MR. ROBINSON:
'4 Q
Is it your understanding today, that they did not 5
go'to that procedure?
6 A
Yes, sir, to my understanding today.
7 Q
How do you know that?
l 8
A Both gentlemen have confessed to this and both 9
gentlemen have been disciplined and I have been notified 1
10 about this myself.
11 Q
Did they confess to you?
12 A
They have confessed to me, yes, sir, after the 13 fact, but not until I had returned off of a seven-day off J
14 stretch.
All this happened right prior to our seven-day off 15 stretch and I found out all the real details after I returned 16 off of the seven-day off stretch.
17 MR. LAMBERSKI:
So your understanding is that you i
18 weren't the first one that they told.
i i
i 19 THE WITNESS:
No, I'm not.
i-20 BY MR. ROBINSON:
21 Q
Do you think it might have been Mr. Hammond?
22 A
I believe Mr. Hammond was the very first one.
i 23 Q
- Okay, i
24 A
That had questioned and they had told.
i 25 Q
All right.
Again, we've gone over this basically, i
i i
m-
. m
Page 25 1
but I'm going to repeat this question again.
It's my 2
understanding that on the day in question, you got a call 3
from -- you think it was Mr. Davis --
4 A
Yes, sir.
5 Q
He said he found the loop out of tolerance or words 6
to that effect.
You went to the site, there was some type of 7
indication, and you tell me whether it was Mr. Davis or Mr.
8 Wilkins that, at least to my understanding, that they reset
.9 these points without going through the full calibration 10 procedure.
Was there some kind of suggestion to do that?
11 A
Not to my knowledge, no, sir.
12 Q
Okay, so you just verified that it was out of 13 tolerance and told them to get the QC guy and take the 14 appropriate procedural actions necessary to get the thing 15 calibrated.
16 A
Yes, sir.
17 Q
Did they have any comments to those instructions?
18 A
They just say you know it'll take time, I said well l,
19 it'll take time.
20 Q
Okay.
Who was it that said that, both of them or 4
21 just one of them?
1 22 A
I don't remember exactly which one said it.
I 23 remember the statement was made.
24 Q
About how long a time does it take to do that 25 calibration?
i
l Page 26 l'
A The full delta T calibration or just this bistable 2
card that we're talking about?
3 Q
Just the calibration that they were going to be 4
required to do per procedure.
l 5
A It would take approximately an hour.
6 Q
Okay.
Was there, to your knowledge, any particular j
7 urgency to get that condition corrected on anybody's part?
8 A-The urgency only was that we were getting close to 9
and of shift and trying'to get all racks cleared up for 10 operations and get out.
They don't like to do turnovers with 11 loops in partial trip setups and while we're in this, we're 12 in a partial trip.
13 Q
How close were you to the end of your shift?
14 A
Within I believe -- I'm not sure, I'd have to get 15 the data sheet to find out the time, but I believe all this 16 was happening between 4:30 and 6:00, which our shift ends at 17 7:00.
Operation shifts ends at 5:30 -- well they start their o
18 turnover at 5:30.
19 Q
Okay.
To your knowledge, other than the fact that 20 it was close to the end of the shift, was there any other 21 sense of urgency to get this condition corrected?
22 A
No, sir.
23 Q
Okay.
Was there any other conversation between you 24 and Davis and Wilkins at that time, before you left to let 4
25 them do the procedure?
4
4 Page 27 1
A
'Just general talk, nothing in particular that I 2
have any recollection of.
3 Q
Nothing that you can recall pertaining to what they 4
were going to do to correct that situation?
5 A
As far as specific instructions as to exactly what 6
to do, no, sir, I did not make any.
7 Q
No, I kind of meant any conversation from them as 8
to what they were going to do.
9 A
Other than making adjustments what I assumed was by 10 procedure, I didn't catch onto anything other than that.
11 Q
Okay.
When you left, you didn't have the feeling 12 that they were going to shortcut the calibration procedure in 13 any way?
14 A
No, sir, I did not.
15 Q
Okay.
Next question -- did you review the 16 precedure that had been accomplished, in detail, and direct 17 the actions of the IEC technicians to correct the identified i
18 deficiency?
Do you understand that?
19 MR. LAMBERSKI:
What procedure are we talking 20 about?
21 MR. ROBINSON:
I guess the procedure that had in 22 fact been used by the IEC techs to recalibrate the equipment.
23 MR. LAMBERSKI:
What correction are we talking 24 about?
Because as Brian has mentioned earlier, that 25 procedure was revised improperly at the time the ACOT was e
-4 Page_28 1
performed and then it was later corrected.
So are we talking 2
about that correction?
3 MR. ROBINSON:
Well to my understanding it's the 4
-values,.the high and low values, that on the data sheet were 5
the things that were incorrect.
6 BY MR. ROBINSON:
7 Q
Was the procedure itself to do the calibration of i
8 that particular piece of equipment changed in any way?
j S
A As far as the normal steps to obtain those values, 10 no.
4-I 11 NR. BONSER:
I think what is being asked here is l
12 not did Mr. Neal review the words in the procedure, because l
13 the words on what to do I think were the same as they had 2
14 always been.
i 15 THE WITNESS:
They always had been.
i 16 MR. BONSER:
I think what we're referring to here 17 is did you review in detail all these numbers on all these i
18 data sheets and in what depth did you review them.
i 19 MR. LAMBERSKI Okay, let's take them one step at a 20 time.
That's the first question.
21 MR. BONSER:
I think that's what's really being 22-asked, because the words -- you already know what the words i
H23 say and they know what the words say and they've been the 24 same.for awhile.
25 THE WITNESS:
For quite awhile.
0
i 4
Page 29 1
MR. BONSER:
Yeah.
2 THE WITNESS:
The procedure had been rev'd shortly.
3 We looked at the values that were here.
Without scaling i
4 sheets and sitting down and doing scalings, we have no way of 4
i 5
knowing that these numbers are not the expected numbers that 6
we need to find in the field.
)
i 7
MR. ROBINSON:
Let the record reflect he's talking j
8 about the numbers that actually are typed on the ACOT Test S
Data Sheet as being the expected and low and high limit l
10 numbers.
11 THE WITNESS:
Like I said, without scaling sheets, f
12 I have no way of knowing that this is.not the correct value.
13 All I have is that this is the correct rev of this procedure.
14 MR. ROBINSON:
Let the record reflect he's showing i
15 Revision 16 -- pointing to Revision 16.
l 16 MR. BONSER:
Now you do verify that you have the 17 right revision of the procedure before you go out to the job.
l 18 THE WITNESS:
Before you go out to the job, yeah.
19 That's the only thing that I have -- I have to ensure that I i
20 have the right rev of the procedure before I go to the field l
21 and I have to assume my values are correct.
i 22 BY MR. ROBINSON:
23 Q
So are you saying that you did in fact closely 24 examine the as-expected and high and low figures and compare 25 them to the entered figures on the data sheets?
l l
l Page 30 1
A Yes, sir, I did.
2 Q
And also Data Sheet 37?
3 A
Yes, sir.
4 Q
Okay.
Correct me -- as far as directing the i
5 actions of the IEC technicians, it's my understanding that 6
you told them to do what is needed to do by procedure to 7
correct the situation.
8 A
Yes, sir.
S Q
And then you left the area, the QC guy had come and 10 you left the area and went back to your office, is that' 11 correct?
l 12 A
No, sir.
13 Q
Where did you go?
14 A
I went around to the front of the control room.
15 Q
Okay.
16 A
And was in the h,orseshoe area with the SS and OSOS.
17 Q
Okay.
Have you ever had any similar activities i
18 from -- experienced any similar activities from Davis and 19 Wilkins with respect to not following procedures and' entering 20 false data on data sheets?
21 A
No, sir.
22 Q
Did you notify operations personnel that the 23 equipment did not meet the procedure requirements and would 24 be aligned in accordance with the prescribed procedure?
25 A
Yes, sir.
1
Page 31 1
Q What action did you take when you became aware or 2
were notified that the IEC technicians had not performed the 3
procedure as required?
4 A
When I --
5 Q
When you became aware.
6 A
When I became aware the discipline action was 7
already instated on the technicians themselves.
I 8
Q It had already happened.
You were off for a week 9
and --
10 A
It had already happaned.
When I returned and was 11 fully informed of what was going on, the disciplinary action 12 was already being taken.
i j
13 MR. LAMBERSKI Well let's back up and make sure 14 this is clear.
When did you notify operations?
15 THE WITNESS:
When J.D. took the DC card around to 16 the front to get them to assign a number and they said it was 17 not a deficiency, that our procedures allowed us to make the 18 correction, they were aware that we had an out-of-tolerance 1
19 bistable.
4 4
20 MR. LAMBERSKI:
Okay, the question was just with 21 respect to the out-of-tolerance condition?
4 22 MR. ROBINSON:
Well that was a different question I 4
4 23 guess in a different context.
24 MR. LAMBERSKI Could you please re-ask that 25 question?
I'm afraid it might have been misunderstood.
)
4 k
Page 32 F
1 MR. ROBINSON:
Okay.
4 2
BY MR.. ROBINSON:
j 3
Q Did you notify the operations personnel that the 4
equipment did not meet the procedure requirements and would
- I 5
he aligned in accordance with the prescribed procedure?
l 6
A The answer to that is still ayes, sir", the DC card 7
was generated, we had QC coming and we made adjustments.
j
)
8 MR. LAMBERSKI And your understanding of what that 9
means -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- is'that you're to
[
10 notify operation's when the as-found condition of the bistable l
11 in question is out of tolerance with the values on the data i*
12 sheet.
13 THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir.
i 14 MR. ROBINSON:
Okay.
15 BY MR. ROBINSON:
16 Q
Did you in fact tell the operations people that 17 your technicians are going to align this piece of equipment 18 in accordance with procedure or did you just tell them that l
19 it's going to be corrected?
They told me 20 A
I really didn't tell them either.
i 21 that the DC card was not necessary, that the procedure 22 allowed for the correction and that we had everything under 23 control.
'I said that's what I come around to make sure you i
24 understood.
)
- 5 Q
Okay.
And now the next question that -- I guess l
2 4
J
'~'.
l 1
Page 33 1
this is at a different point in time and we've already gone j
2 over it, but we'll go over it again.
When_you found out that 3
the.IEC technicians had not performed the procedure that you 4
had expected them to perform, what did you do?
And I believe 5
you earlier said that disciplinary action had already been i
l 6
taken on these two I&C technicians and you had been returning 1
7 from like a weisk off or --
1 l-8 A
Seven-day off stretch.
I f
9 Q
-- seven-day off stretch.
Did you take any action j-10 in addition to the disciplinary action that had been taken?
i
_11 Did you talk to them or lecture them or school them or 12 anything?
13 A
No, sir, I did not.
Once the disciplinary action-14 is taken, and it was implemented from Mr. Shipman and all 15 here, there was no action that I could take, or no action 16 necessary for me to take.
I discussed ay dissatisfaction 17 with them, but that was all.
\\
18 Q
Okay.
19 A
I had no legal -- or no action that I personally 20 could be taking against them.
21 Q
What was their reaction to that when you discussed 22 your dissatisfaction with them?
23 A
They were very upset with theirselves, they still 24 are. They were very apologetic and --
25 Q
Okay.
So they didn't think that they had done
c Page 34 1
okay, they knew that they had done something wrong.
2 A
They definitely knew that this was not what should 3
have been done.
4
.Q I believe you said earlier that you did not 5
physically observe the actions that they took to recalibrate 6
the equipment, is that correct?
7 A
That is correct, I did not observe those actions.
8 Q
So the only review that really you did of this 9
procedure was your review of the data sheets, is that 10 correct?
l 11 A
Yes, sir, the loop being reinstated, I have 'to do 12 the independent on that, and that is also on the last two 13 sheets of this package.
14 Q
You had to do the independent on that?
15 A
Yes, sir, as far as verifying the bistables were 16 flipped back'in and the system was put back to normal.
l 17 Q
So you physically went out and verified that.
18 A
That's the reason I stayed in the control room 19 around the front of the horseshoe.
i 20 Q
Okay.
21 A
I have to be separated by time and distance.
22 Q
All right.
When you say you have to be separated 23 by time and distance --
b 24 A
For an independent verification.
25 MR. BONSER:
Weren't you surprised that they got d
--s e k
e' O
Page 35 1
done so fast?
r 2
THE WITNESS:
Not really, not with the small amount 4
l 3
that had to be adjusted.
I mean it's just a matter of 1
j 4
tweaking a screw.
5 MR. BONSER:
Because you had said earlier that it 6
would take about an hour to do it.
I don't know how long you i
7 were in the control room --
i 8
THE WITNESS:
I don't have a recollection of 9
exactly how long I was around front waiting on them to 10
' finish.
You know, I was called, we went out, I went around 11 front, they called me back sometime later and we closed out 12 the package.
Exact tbnes that this took this and this took 13 that, I don't have.
14 BY MR. ROBINSON:
15 Q
We're not asking for exact times.
About how long 16 was 1t, half an hour, 45 minutes, 15 minutes, an hour and'a 17 half?
9 18 A
It wasn't an hour and a half, it was a good 35-45 19 minut.es.
20 Q
Is there any way that you can tell whether or not 21 MR. Wilkins and Mr. Davis have done this type of thing 22 before?
23 A
No, sir, nothing other than, you know --
24 Q
Well go ahead, what were you going to say?
25 A
Just knowing the men and the way they've already
,. ~.
s-l
~
I Page 36 I
worked. This was a total shock.
1 2
-Q These are good men?
j 3
A very good men.
i 4
Q Have always done things according to procedure?
)
5 A
Yes, sir.
6 Q
Have you ever had situations where you were close 7
to the end of the shift before and they had to do something 8
that took them past shift?
p A
Yes, sir, we've worked over.
10 Q
If the alarms had not started coming in as a result 11 of the 3.990 being too close to the limit, this probably 12 wouldn't have been discovered, would it?
)
13 A
Until -- well not for awhile.
The ACOT is 14 performed I believe once a month, but unless someone actually 15 recognized that we had wrong numbers, it could have been 16 there for awhile.
17 Q
So if -- I mean, once these values are set, are 18 recalibrated, in your experience, how much would they change 19 between ACOTs?
20 A
They would drift maybe a few millivolts at the 21 most, you know.
The way these left the 3.990 it could be 22 3.89 -- excuse me, 3.989 or 3.991, you know, minute drift at 23 the most.
24 Q
So as long as the same data sheets with the 25 expected values, if they would have been used the next month,
5 t
Page 37 1
the same.-- there wouldn't apparently have been anything 2
wrong with those readings.
3 A
There would have been no problem the next month.
4 with the 3.990 reading that would have been taken.
5 Q
All right.
You wouldn't have expected your review 6
of these do'cument to have in itself identified that problem, 7
would you?
j 8
A Not that I can see, we had a minute change between 9-the as-found/as-left on the' Data Sheet 37 which should have 10 correlated with the change on the as-found/as-left on the j
11 ACOT Data Sheet.
i 12 Q
And in your review, it did correlate, is that j
13 correct?
I 14 A
It appeared to be exactly what we naaded.
15 Q
Do you actually remember comparing those two?
[
16 A
Yes, sir.
l 17 MR. ROBINSON:
Okay.
I don't have any other s
i 18 questions.
Brian, do you have any other questions that you 19 want to ask?
l 20 MR. BONSER:
No.
21 MR. ROBINSON:
Is there any other comments, Mr.
22 Neal, that you'd like to make to clarify or add anything to 23 this situation, to wrap it up, any final comments?
24 THE WITNESS:
Not at this time.
25 MR. ROBINSON:
And if you want to, feel free to --
l I
i
3-Page 38 1
we can take a break if you want to discuss with Mr. Lamberski 4
2 and come back -- would you like to do that?
3 THE WITNESS:
If you don't mind.
4 MR. ROBINSON:
It's now 12:08 and we'll take a five 5
minute break.
6 (A short recess was taken.)
7 MR. ROBINSON:
It's now 12:20 p.m. and we're back 1
]
8 on the record.
9 I'll repeat my question.
Mr. Neal, are there any
~
j 10 final comments that you'd like to make to clarify or sum up 11 your testimony here today?
j 12 THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir.
I believe I made the j
13 statement that I had learned after the seven-day off stretch h
14 about the total incident.
I learned during the seven-day off 15 stretch but I was not back on site and did not see Mr. Davis i
i 16 or anyone else until'after the seven-day off stretch.
I got l
17 all the details after I returned, but I was made aware that l
18 there was a problem during my neven-day off stretch.
19 BY MR. ROBINSON:
20 Q
And it was after you returned that you kind of 21 expressed your displeasure to the -- or disappointment to the 22 23 A
Disappointment, yes, sir.
Also, after I had
{
24 returned, their discipline had also been instated, as far as 25 their DML.
t Page 39 1
Q DML meaning?
2 A
Decision-making leave.
3 Q
I see, okay.
Is that decision-making leave with 4
pay?
5 A
I believe so, yes, sir -- in fact I know so, yes, 6
sir.
7 Q
Any other comments?
8 A
I had no reason up to this point to have ever 9
suspected J.D. or Mr. Wilkins to have done something like 10 this.
My instructions to them I thought was clear and I had 11 no reason to suspect this until, you know, the discovery of 12 it.
1 13 Q
Okay, how long have they been working for you?
14 A
They started working for me right after Christmas, i
15 I believe, right at the first of January.
We had a crew 16 shuffle and they were brought in -- I believe that was the 17 time frame that it was.
r 18 Q
The first of January of this year?
19 A
Yes, the first of January of this year.
20 Q
So they had just been working for you for about a 21 month when this happened.
22 A
Yes.
23 Q
Had you had any experience with their work before 24 or known them?
25 A
I had worked them on different occasions just here
.n Page 40 1
and there with substituting for a foreman on vacation or 2
something on this order.
And just general knowledge of them 3
in the shop and around, and had never heard of any problem or 4
seen anything that would have made me question their work.
5.
Q Okay. Do you have any idea how long they've been 6
out here on site, working out here on site?
I can ask them 7
that.
8 A
I don't have that knowledge right off the top of my 9
head.
10 Q
Okay, but they were just under your direct 11 consistent supervision for about a month?
12 A
About a month when this happened, yes, sir.
13 MR. ROBINSON:
Okay, I have no further questions.*
14 You gave your testimony voluntarily and freely here today,
\\
15 didn't you, Mr. Neal?
16 THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir, l
i 17 MR. ROBINSON:
And no pressure or coercion was put 18 on you to testify?
19 THE WITNESS:
No, sir.
20 MR. ROBINSON:
Unless anyone has any other 21 questions, it's now 12:23 and the interview is completed.
22 Thank you very much for your cooperation.
23 THE WITNESS:
Thank you.
l 24 (Whereupon, the interview was concluded at 12:23 25 p.m.)
l i
1
e
's Page 41 CERTIFICATE This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the matter oft Names Interview of Robert Earn Neal Docket Numbers Place:
Vogtle Nuclear Generating Plant, Waynesboro, GA Date:
May 7, 1992 were held as herein appears, and that this is the' original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission taken stenographically by me and, thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under my direction, and that the transcript is a true and accurate record of the foregoing proceedings.
j i
s1>: =
W WILLIAM L. WARREN i Official Reporter t
Ann Riley & Associates 1
a i
^
.