ML20073H454
| ML20073H454 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Midland |
| Issue date: | 03/28/1983 |
| From: | Savage A SINCLAIR, M.P. |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20073H430 | List: |
| References | |
| ISSUANCES-OL, ISSUANCES-OM, NUDOCS 8304180607 | |
| Download: ML20073H454 (121) | |
Text
____
1' UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION a BEFORE THE ATOMIC SAFETY AND LICENSING E0ARD 4 +
s .._________-___
-)
e IN THE MATTER OF: ) Docket Nos.
) 50-329-0M 7 CONSUMERS POWER COMPANY ) 50-330-0M Oiidland Plant, Units 1 ) 50-329-OL e and 2) ) 50-330-OL
)
e _____ __________
to 11 The deposition of ALBERT SAVAGE, a witness herein, 12 taken before Deborah A. Parent, RPR, CSR-2364, and Notary Public, 13 on Monday, March 28, 1983, at or about 6:20 o' clock P.M., at 14 the Holiday Inn, Midland, Michigan.
15 1s APPEARANCES:
17 ISHAM, LINCOLN & BEALE, BY: PHILIP P. STEPTOE, III, Esq.,
Appearing on behalf of Consumers Power 18 Company.
zo MICHAEL WILCOVE, Esq.,
21 Appearing on behalf of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission Staff.
as 24
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d 1
INDEX g
2 Examinatio' by Mr. Steptoe Page 3
- Examination by Mr. Wilcove Page 89 4 Reexamination by Mr. Steptoe Page 102 s
s 7
s EXHIBITS e NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE to Savage Deposition Exhibit No. 1 Document 5 11 Savage Deposition Exhibit 12 No. 2 Sketch 85 13 14 1s is 17 l is is l
20 l
21 -o00-22 ALBERT SAVAGE, as was thereupon called as a witness, and having been first 8'
duly sworn, testified on his oath as follows:
( s MR STEPTOE: This deposition is being held ano oaviosom swiLo'aG GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. switt 202 one masa =Gtom so ,o e,agg e nes, sii*tstcovet statte sav City usCuiGAN actos sageman usCuiGam ass 0S ' L'N t M'CniGaN 4e503
1 pursuant to the Rules of Practice of the Nuclear Regulatory 2 Conanission and pursuant to agreement of the parties in the g
a matter of Consumers Power Company application for operating 4 licenses for the Midland Plant, Units b and 2 s This application is presently pending before the s Atomic Safety and Licensing Board.
7 EXAMINATION e BY MR STEPTOE:
e Q Would you please state your name and your address, for the 10 record?
" A My name is Albert B. Savage, S-a-v-a-g-e, and I live at I 12 I 122 Varner Court in Midland.
13 Q And I spoke, Mr. Savage, to Ms. Sinclair who said that she 14 had an errand to run but that she would be here later. Do 15 you have any objection to going forward at this time?
18 A No.
17 Q And am I correct that you're not going to be represented by e a lawyer here?
18 A No.
20 Q Okay. When we spoke last week, you told me that you under-21 stood what a deposition is, but would you mind if I just go an over it again?
as A Okay.
2" Q As you know, you're under oath and I will ask you questions as and your answers are transcribed by this lady so that we'll GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE. INC. suite aos 330 DaviosoN SuetotNG e t I wf t' Covat start?
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I have a written record of my questions and your answers.
g 2 In general, I will be asking you questions about your 8 background and your work experience, about what you have done
+
4 to prepare to give this testimony, and then about the sub-e stance of your testimony, f
e If at any time you feel the need to take a break, just 7
tell me and we'll take a break. If you would like to call s
Ms. Sinclair's husband or anybody else, we can arrange for e a private phone for you to do that.
10 At the end of the deposition, we'll get you a copy of !
t 11 your deposition. You'll have the opportunity to read through ,
1 12 it and correct any mistakes which might occur either in is transcription er any other errors that you would like to 14 correct.
15 If you don't understand a question, please let me know 16 because the assumption is, when I ask the question and you
! 17 give an answer, that you have heard it.
18 A Okay, t
! is Q Mr. Savage, it's my understanding that you have agreed to ao testify on behalf of Ms. Sinclair with respect to Sinclair at Contention No. 4 Is that understanding correct?
an A Essentially. She gave me some papers to read about this and as I wrote her a seven-page thing which included her specific 24 contention and other things about the possibilities of I as l corrosion of the steam generators and so forth. In other ano paviosow susto'wG GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. Sveta 202 one wasa.Neto= sooo stata. a west ein west cov at stmaat Gav Citt es*CmGaN as?O4 sageman uscwigaN es403 e . INT u,CwaG AN 40503
- 1' wordo, what I would hava to ccy parhaps 10 mora general or a more broad than her specific contention, if that's all
(
a right.
- Q In general, the evidence in a Nuclear Regulatory Commision a proceeding is directed towards an individual contention and a the Board will be deciding to what extent your testimony will 7 he allowed if it exceeds the SCtual bounds of Contention'and a that is certainly one of the things that --
s A She said she had given what I wrote to somebody. I don't to know if she did or not.
11 Q Yes. Mr. Savage, I'll hand you a copy of a nine-page docu-12 ment. The front page is a cover letter from Mary Sinclair f
is to the administrative judges and the remaining eight pages t
14 appear to be your testimony, is Would you take a look at that document and tell me if is that is the --
17 A I rewrote my first page slightly. I have it there and there is are on that also some notes in my own writing that were just is incidental things that might come up in a course of a ques-ao tion or something like that, because I did this in a hurry at and there were places where things weren't always completely as defined.
as q y ,,,,
8' A This is it essentially, yes. This is it, yes.
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1 A The front page is very little different from what I have
(
2 there.
a Q Well, is this an extra copy?
4 A Yes. -
a MR. STEPTOE: Okay. I would like to have the --
e yes, I would like to have this document that you gave me 7 which is an eight-page document entitled Statement of A.B.
s Savage as to Sinclair Contention No. 4 marked as Savage s Deposition Exhibit No. 1.
10 (Whereupon Savage Deposition Exhibit No. I was
" marked for identification by the Bourt Reporter.)
12
! Q Now, l'r. Savage, do ycu intend to give any further testimony, i.
13 whether written or oral or other documents , in this pro-14 cet. ding other than this Savage Deposition Exhibit No. 17 I 15 A No.
is Q Let's start with the last page, Mr. Savage, which appears 17 to me to be your resume, to Is this resume accurate?
18 A Well, I have some papers here if you wish to see them.
no Are those your diplomas, sir?
Q 21 A Yes, I have three of them actually. I also have a Bachelor as of Arts Cumlaude because I was supposed to be the first per-as son to take a course in business administration and engineer-
- ing, but my advisor died so that was dropped. But here are 25 these three diplomas. The Engineering with distinction aso paviosoas ev'Lo'NG GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. suita aos one wasm.=Geo= 3000 stats a west 8's we st Cowns stme st saw Cett tseCuiGa= attoe sage %aw eseCm'Gaw seco3 P LsNT MiCutGaN 40$o3
1' corrasp:nds to Cum 1 cud 2 in Arts. There's also my Masters I a there.
g a Q I'm not going to mark these diplomas but I note that they're 4 all from the University of Minnesota. -
e A Yes. Here's my membership in the American Institute of a chemical Engineers which is elective which is saying you 7 have to have certain qualifications. I was an active member e 'of that organization. This is just my diploma from the s National Honorary Research Society. I'm a research engineer, 10 by the way, rather than a production and design engineer.
11 The Scientific Research Society of America is the same 12 essentially as Sigma Xi and I was elected to that while at is Dow and to the Beta Phi Hcnorary Engir.eering Fraternity and 4 the Phi Lambda Upsilon Honorary Chemical Fraternity. My is Bachelor of Arts was a major in chemistry and a minor in is mathematics so I guess you've seen them all.
17 I take it that this resume on Page 8 is accurate?
Q is A Yes.
8 Q Okay.
20 A Do you want information about what I did while at Cascade 21 or --
as I will ask you specific questions and go through this, Q
as A All right, a' Q In the second paragraph, you stated when you attened the as University of Minnosota and received a Bachelor of Chemical a3o oaviosom evi60.NG GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE. INC. suott aos siemaen**G?om noen state a west ein west covet staart gav Citt. M*CwiGam estoe saGemaw wecweGaN se6o3 FLast u.cmeGae. 4e503
i Engineering with distinction in 1934 or in 1935, excuse me, 2 courses of special relevance included resistance of materials .
a Could you tell me what resistance of materials is?
4 A There were two courses. The course am@unts to mechanical s design, pressures, columns, beams, all that sort:nf thing.
e There was another course which had to do with specific use 7 of Chemicals in industry. This was before there was a hand a booklet that had those things in it. So essentially I had e one course in chemical properties and another course on d
to mechanical design. ,
11 Q Would either one of those courses have included the corrosion l 12 resistance of materials?
1 is A Some of that was in the course of chemical resistance and is also the electro chemistry course had corrosion in it.
is Q Could you tell me what --
is A I've worked, of course, with regard to corrosion since then.
17 Q Could you tell me how much corrosion was involved in the is second course you mentioned on specific use of chemicals in is industry? .
20 A Well, materials you would choose say if you had a reaction 21 with sulphuric acid as the medium, for example, or hydro-za chloric acid or chlorine or caustic, that sort of thing, What materials you would use to confine such acid solutions?
~
as Q a4 A Yes.
' as Q Was there any discussion in that course of corrosion of a,o o.wiesom suiso =G GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. suits for sie e.saematom so,o st.ts a we st se e we st count stesst e.t citt ..c-......t ...,~.. ..c.......... .<~t ..c-. .~ ..so>
1 materials due to the presence of contaminants in water?
2 A In general in that course it was in larger amounts. Later on
(
a while working out at Dow I did work that had to do with the
- corrosion of paint cans, for example, b'y materials in the a paint, in making a polytex paint or something like that. So e this was -- the small amount of things came later, in other 7
words.
e Q Okay. So that it didn't -- it wasn't involved in your course s on resistance of materials?
r
" A Only indirect.ly, yes.
" Q Now, could you explain to me what your course on industrial 12 electro chemistry involved?
'3 A Nell, that was -- at that time I was thinking of going into electro chemistry which has to do with things like chlorine .
" cells, magnifying aluminum, magnesium, that sort of thing.
It had to do with batteries, choosing metals to prevent
" corrosion, things like that, if you had metals in contact, what kind of voltage you would have between them, for example .
" Again, did that course involve the corrosion resistance of Q
zo materials subjected to water with small amounts of contami-21 nants?
za A Well, not as much as small amounts, no.
88 Q What relevance did your course on electric power add to the testimony as you've written it?
A Oh, it's relatively of little relevance other than I ano Davioso= ewiLo'NG GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. suits for 998 wassemGiom sego statt a west ett wil?CowetST*Ef?
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1 understand how powerhouses and turbans and generators and 2 so forth work,
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s Q Since this was 1935, am I correct in assuming that this 4 courseonelectricpowerdidnotinclu[eanyaspectsof a nuclear engineering?
e A No, it didn't.
7 Q Do you have any affiliation with the National Association e of Corrosion Engineers?
- A No. Since I retired, I'm no longer a member of it. I was 10 also a member of the American Chemical Society, by the 11 I way. They don't give you any diploma or anything. They i
12 give you a card every year and I was a member of that, the 13 American Chemical Society.
14 Q Were you ever affiliated with the National Association of 15 Corrosion Engineers?
is A No.
17 Q Have you ever attended any specific courses sponsored by the is National Association of Currosion Engineers or the American is Institute of Chemical Engineers pertaining to corrosion?
2o A I have, I think, of the American Institute of Chemical 21 Engineers, yes, as Q Can you remember what that course was about or those courses 1 as A I don't remember. ,
1 a* Have you ever had any courses in nuclear energy?
Q as A No.
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i s Q Have you ever had any courses in nuclear reactor physics?
2 A No. l
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a Q Have you ever had any courses in nuclear criticality?
4 A No. -
s Q Have you had any courses in thermodynamics?
e A Yes.
7 Q When was this?
s A I had -- that was when I was in college and also I had some e at Dow where I worked in conjunction with the thermal labora-to tory on some problems.
1 11 Q Have you ever had any courses in the design or the fabri-I-
12 cation or the saintenance or the operation of steam genera-1 13 i tor.S?
14 A Not steam generators, no. ,
is Q You state in the third paragraph that you worked as a research -
is chemical engineer under various titles with Dow Chemical 17 for thirty-nine and a half years?
is A Yes.
is Q And then you go on to talk about various aspects of your 20 work.
21 You state that your experience included reactions in-22 volving corrosive acids under pressure, PH control and the 23 observation of an evaporator, observation and maintenance.
i 24 A That was when I was still at the paper company.
I'm misreading your testimony.
25 Q I'm sorry.
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1 Can you describe what the evaporators were that you were 2
( working with?
8 A Yes. There are essentially two ways of making chemical
- pulp that were used. One was the so-called craft process
caustic and that's the material which was being evaporated 7 t Ig s washed out of the pulp in what are called diffusers or 8
at least a spraying effect and then it's put through a mul-tiple effect evaporator. At that time they had tubes. The 50 tubes in the evaporatoro were admiralty metal which is a kind 1
of a bronze that was developed for use with sea water.
2 Q Were these evaporators similer either to steam generators 3
or condensors such as you described?
A They were horizcntal tube evaporators.
Q Were these evaporators similar to either steam generators 8
or condensors of the kind that you're discussing at the
" Midland Plant?
A They are similar to condensors.
1' Q Similar in what way, sir?
2o A Well, they were a horizontal tube.
21 Q Were they similar in --
22 A There was steam in the tubes and the liquid, I believe, was as
-- I think the liquid was on the outside.
8' Q But the liquid and the steam, were they water?
as A Water with the sulfides and things, carbonates and so forth, ano Daviosom switomo GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. suite 303 eiewasumGiom 3000 evava e west sie west cowat senett saw Citv McCuiGaN actos saGeman uscueGaw assoJ F LW T uicniGaN asso)
i Q Is it true that the fluids thct you're talking about at the
(
2 paper company were much more corrosive than you would expect )
a the pond water to be?
4 A Yes. I was about to say that -- the corrosive acids had a to do with sulphuric acid and they react to sulphuric acid e and calcium bi-sulfide and there was very severe corrosion 7 there. The bronze valve might only last five days and when a we were able to obtain a valve of eighteen stainless steel, 8 they would last over a month which was a big improvement.
10 The principal thing was wire drawing through the valve when 1
you vented it.
52 But to asunmarize, these evaporators were subject to cur:
Q 13 more corrosive conditions than the condensors at the Midland 14 Plant or the steam generators at the Midland Plant?
5 A Yes, but they had the same sort of structurial deficiencies v -
" that were shown in the pictures than on these papers.
17 Q Okay. I'll come back to that later.
" A All right.
" Q When did you join Dow Chemical?
28 A 1937, in July.
2' Q And when did you retire, sir?
22 A 1976, the end of December.
as Q And were you working at Midland the whole time?
24 g y,,,
Q Was this retirement due to reaching the normal retirement aso oavioso= suito'*G GENERAL REPORTING SkRVICE. INC. suiva aos sie wasMe=Gio= sooo stava e west sie west Covat senge, sav CITV. ediCMiGaN ag7ot saGiNaw uiCMiGaN e86o3 FUNT m'CM*GaN esso 3
i age?
2 A It was a year early but I had become sort of worn down and a tired from what I was doing and I found I was working for 4 a very small difference from what the retirement pension s would be.
s Q But was it voluntary?
7 A Yes.
e Q Okay. Now, you say you were a research chemical engineer e and not a design and production engineer.
to Could you please describe what the difference is?
11 A Well, the larger scale things I did were pilot plant work in 12 general. That is where ycu're developing a new process and is l working out the bugs in it and finding out what materials 8
i 14 and temperatures and pressures and all that sort of thing i
is to use. Then from what the experience is there, you build is a production plant which is run by production people and it 17 involves some design but it wasn't working day by day in the is Design Engineering Department. I also did quite a lot of is laboratory work.
2o Q How large would these pilot plant operations be?
21 A Well, some up to say 100,000 pounds of material a month or 22 something like that.
as Q That's the production that's going through?
24 A That's the production, yes, and some smaller, depending on 25 what stage you are on development. You start on a very small ano Davioso= ewikome GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. suite aos sie wase= Geom sooo stata o west sie west Cover staart saw CITv usCmGam attoo saGemaw usCmGam a84o3 # LIN T M'CmGa% 405o3
scale making a pound a product and maybe scale on up to 20 a
( or 25 pounds and then you go up to maybe 100 or 1500 and a then you go up to a bigger scale.
- Q In the third paragraph of your resume, you state that your 8
experience included operation of reactors at about 200 psig.
- Were these chemical reactors or nuclear reactors?
7 A They were chemical reactors.
s Q Similarly, you state that you had to do with prevention of
- runaway reactions. Again this refers to chemical reactions?
" A Yes.
I "f Finally, the course in continuous reactor design from the Q
im University of Michigan instructor, is that --
A That again was,, chemical reactors. ,
Q t.re you stat.ing in this third paragraph that you had experience in the design and operation of condensors and heat exchangers when you were at Dow?
" A Yes.
Q And was that in connection with these pilot plants?
" A Yes.
Q Is there any other experience with condensors and heat exchangers while you were at Dow?
22 A You mean -- well, we worked with the production plants that as had these things, too. Like, for instance, we changed a l batch steel system to a continuous steel system, for example.
Q Were these condensors of the same size and type as those aso oaviosow ev'Lo'*G GENE RAL FEPORTING SERVICE. INC. Suits act eis waowe=Gio* sooo state a west et s west covat stesst saw CITT. McCa*GAN 80704 S AGewan McCas*G AN 40403 FLsNT McCu*GAN eSS03 I
1 which are at Midland, to the best of your knowledge?
2 A This was in Midland, yes.
(
a Q Y m sorry. At the Midland Nuclear Power Plant?
4 A They were, of course, smaller, I think7 s Q Can you give me an idea of how much smaller?
e A Well, probably the largest was maybe 400 square feet or 7 something like that and generally Dow doesn't have very big e operations in Midland.
s Q Is that just the gross size of the --
in A That's the heat exchange area.
11 I see.
Q 12 A The area of the tubes, for example, u Q Okay. And with respect to the heat exchangers, can you give 14 me an idea of whether these were comparable to those that is one would find at a nuclear power plant?
is A They were, of course, smaller because they don't have as 17 big of ones in those.
18 Q Were they both -- were both the condensors and heat exchangers 1s using water as the fluid?
20 A Yes.
I 21 Q On both sides?
22 A Well, sometimes you'd have some water on both sides. Some-22 times you'd have water on one side and solvent on another 24 siide . Like if you were condensing an organic vapor, you'd as have water condensing the vapor, aso oaviosom eveLDe=G GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE. INC. suita 202 ese was=imatom sooo stata o west sit west Covat svarat saw Citv. wiCniGa= astoe saGi%aw weCee Gag aseo3 F LiN T wicee GaN asso)
i Q Do you have any experience in the design or the fabrication a or the maintenance or the operation of steam generators?
a A Well, no.
4 Q Do any of your patents have applicatioiPto nuclear power a plant design or operation? j 1
s A No.
7 Q Did any of the technical book chapters or encyclopedia e articles relate to nuclear power plant design or operation?
e A No. What I'm specifically talking about is corrosion of 10 the steam part of the thing.
11 Q I see. Can you explain what a frangible safety is?
12 A Yes.
13 ,
Q Would you, please?
, 1 14 A Yes. Say you have a pipe that's connected to a reactor that ,
is develops pressure. You make a thin nickel, for example, is a sheet of definite thickness and it can be -- if there's to 17 De Vacuum on one side, you pump it a little bit and this is is held between flanges that are bolted together, usually fairly is high pressure flanges.
no You place this in the line and, if the pressure gets to 21 a certain amount, then this nickel thing will burst. Some-as times they have little pieces inside with points on it which as would be sure to make it burst more easily.
a' Q Are these sometimes called rupture discs?
I as A y.,,
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1 Q And you referred in your previous answer to a reactor. Are you talking about chemical reactors there?
4 a A Yes.
4 Q What didf you have to do with frangible safeties?
s A Well, on all our reactors and storage tanks we have frangible e safety. It's very rare to have a pop valve.
7 Q And by all of our reactors and storage tanks, you're talking e about all of them at Dow?
e A Yes, in general.
So Q Okay. What did pu have to do with relief valves?
11 A Well, they were on steam. For example, I had to deal uith l 12 a Dow boile.r which had Dowtherm. The Dowtherra system had is relief valves on it and storage of certain kind of chen.icals.
14 They sometimes in more recent years began to use relief '
l is valves rather than frangible rafetier. If there was a hazard to for having -- by the way, you generally have two of these 17 frangibles, one of SDother and, if one is likely to blow, i is you have a divided pipe, two sets of two so that -- when you is connect the stems of the valves together, you can turn one 20 on while the other is off. So if you have to change one, 21 you can do that.
l sa Q I think you talk about that later on in your testimony, as A Yes.
24 Q And I'll ask you about that later.
f as You said you had to do with frangible safeties and 330 Daviosom su*Loe=G GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE. INC. suita 302 sie waswimGiom 5000 statt a west si e we st Count stee rt Sav CITT. McCMiGAN eStos SaGsNaw McCaiG AN 40603 FLINT, M'CniGa= eSSc3 7 - -- - , . , . , - - - - . ~ - - - - . . - ,-, - - - -, . . - - - - - - - - --
i relief valves. What precisely was it that you parsonally 4
2 had to do with these things?
(
A Well, you had to choose what size they should be in order
- to give -- be able to give sufficient Escape to relieve what-
- ever was going on inside the reactor. You had to select the 8 Sometimes it was nickel and in some cases they materials.
7 were aluminum and in some cases you'd use a plastic film
- between the tank and the metal so as to protect it from
- corrosion. The way they fail is usually by a pin hole through a leak at first. You have a pressure gauge or what-
" ever so you can tell if it'c leaking and you can change it. ,
12 Q Am I correct in assuming that ycu were using both frangible
'3 safeties and relief valves in desiging these pilot plants?
A Yes. ;
Q Did you ever work with pilot cperated relief valves?
A Air operated.
" Well, I don't -- I'm not familiar enough with the terms to Q
i answer that question.
A Well, you can have an automatic valve that's operated by
- air that gets say to a certain pressure.
Q Did you ever design one of thoese?
88 A Design the valve?
Q Yes.
- A I designed the installation but the valve itself was some-
- thing you buy.
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1 Q Did you ever design the installation of such a valve?
a A Yes.
(
a Q Did you ever work with target rock valves?
4 A Pardon? O s Q Did you ever work with target rock valves?
e A I don't know what that is. !
7 Q Have you ever designed anything for a nuclear power plant?
e A No.
s Q Have you ever worked in a nuclear power plant?
10 A No.
11 Q Am I also correct in ascuming that you have no experience 12 in the manufacture of steam generators?
13 A No.
14 Q I'm not correct or I am correct?
15 A Yes, you are correct.
Is MR. STEPTOE: I will note, for the record, that 17 Ms. Sinclair is noW present in the room.
18 Are you familiar with the techniques of stress relief used Q
18 by Babcock and Wilcox as part of its manufacturing process ao for steam generators?
21 A I presume there would be something like an aneeling of them.
82 Q Do you know what they do?
28 A I don't know, no.
24 Have you ever toured a nuclear power plant, the site?
Q as A No, aso Daviosom sustos=4 GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE. INC. su'tt 202 o n e wa s.e**Gio* sooo stata a was, ein was? Covas staser Sav CITT M*CueG AN 407D0 SaGsNaw McCuaGaw e9603 FLaNT MsCueG AN 44503
-~r, - - - - --
i Q You've never toured the Midland site?
g
- A No.
a Q Mr. Savage, what documents did you review in the course of 4 preparing this testimony?
s A There were some that Ms. Sinclair loaned to me.
e Q Do you recall what they were, sir?
7 A There was one that was testimony by Mr. Hillman. There's e one about the Ginna Power Plant. There was one about the e Babcock and Wilcox type steam generator and there was one to about steam generators in general. There was also an 11 environmental study and some answers to environmental ques-12 tions.
13 Q Do you recall anything else, sir?
14 A There was some miscellaneous letters and things but some of 15 them were marked copies and I'm not sure which were dupli-16 Cates and which weren't.
17 Q Referring to the document about Ginnea, I hand you a copy of is NUREG-0916 which is entitled Safety Evaluetion Report re-Is lating to the restart of RE-Ginna Nuclear Power Plant. Is 20 that the document you reviewed, sir?
21 A Yes, and there were two small ones about so thick, ones on 22 steam generators and --
22 Q We'll see if we can find those.
24 Is this the -- I'll hand you a copy of NUREG-0537, 25 Final Environmental Statement. Is that the document you 330 DaveDsON SusLO.NG GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC swift 202 eis wasmeNGTON sooo start a wasY se t west Covet sine EY Sav CITT, McCneG AN a070s saGiNaw asiCaiGaN AS403 # L*NT assCuiGa% 405o3
1 reviewed?
g 1 A Yes, sir, I reviewed that. This is one of the ones I did a review.
4 Q Would you identify that or let me identify it.
s A This was the other one.
s Q You reviewed NUREG-0571, Summary of Tube Integrity Operating 7 Experience with Once-Through Steam Generators, is that s correct?
e A Yes.
10 Q And you also reviewed a document entitled NUREG-0886 entitled 11 Steam Generators Tube Experience?
12 A Yes.
13 Q I think the Court Reporter would have an easier time if you 14 would let me finish asking my question before you answer, is sir.
is A Okay.
17 Q Do you -- can you identify anymore clearly the miscellaneous is documents and answers to environmental questions that you is reviewed?
20 A Besides this yellow one, there was an earlier one.
21 Q You mean the Draft Environmental Statement?
an A Yes.
as Q And that was green?
24 A Green, yes.
' as Q And was there anything else that you can recall that you ano Daviosow eviLo*NG GENERAL REPORTING SE RVICE. INC. Suitt 202 ese wasmeNGrow so,ostagg a wa s, ein west Count staste sav Cifv M*CMiGaN 4e70e saGiNaw WsCMiGaN esso 3 FLINT MiCMiGaN eeSc3
1 rcviewed?
a A I can't recall what the other things were.
a Q Did you review the document called the Final Safety Analysis
- Repcrt for the Midland Plant? It's a Et11ti-volume document, s A No.
e Q Did you review this document which is called the Safety 7 Evaluation Report for the Midland Plant? It's NUREG-0793.
e A No.
s Q Did you ever review any of the supplements to NUREG-0793 10 which are thinner documents?
11 A No.
12 Your answer is no?
Q is A Right.
14 Q Did you ever review a document entitled the Environmental is Report for the Midland Plant? It's another multi-volume
,1e document in big binders.
17 A Bigger than the green one?
is Q Yes, it's like a three-ring binder.
e A No.
20 In the Final Environmental Statement, are you aware that l Q 21 your letter commenting on the Draft Environmental Statement sa is included in this document?
as A Yes.
- Q And did you read the staff responses?
' as A Yes.
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1 Q To your letter?
a A Yes.
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a Q HAve you reviewed Consumers Power Company's Proposed Secon-4 dary Water Chemistry Limits?
s A I guess I don't -- I'm not clear what you mean. Do you mean a the analysis or --
7 Q No. I'll ask you -- I'll simply tell you that there are e specific limits on levels of contaminants in the secondary a water system which have been proposed by Consumers Power 10 Company, for instance, so much for chloride and so forth.
11 Have you reviewed that list?
12 A I think I've seen it but I can't remember what it was in.
13 Q Do you recall what any of those limits were?
14 A No.
15 Q Did you rely on those limits in preparing your testimony?
is A I guess I had forgotten them.
17 Q You ggid you -- I wagn't clear when you had forgotten them, is sir.
13 Did you forget them before you wrote your testimony?
zo A Yes.
21 Q Have you reviewed the Midland Plant operating procedures as 22 they relate to secondary system chemistry monitoring con-as trol?
28 A There were notes on the testimony of Mr. Hillman.
s 25 Q But apart from Mr. Hillman's testimony, did you ever review ano Davioso= su'Lo'*G GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE. INC. susti 202 ese wasm=Grom sooo statt a wast sit west Count stat ti sat Citv. usCmGas astoe saGeNaw M*CmGaN a8603 8Li%v usCmGa% 40503
. 1 the Midland Plant operating procedures?
a A No.
(
a Q Have you ever read any Midland Plant operating procedures
- dealing with the blowdown of the steam generators or blowdowr a requirements or procedures for the steam generators?
e A No.
7 Q Have you ever reviewed any procedures relating to the pro-e posed maintenance of the systems for controlling secondary 8
water chemistry?
" A No.
" Have you ever reviewed any nuclear power plant operating Q
a procedures governing emergency procedures in the event of a a
steam generator to rupture?
A I read the Ginna Report.
Q Apart from the Ginna Report, have you ever read any other l procedures governing that situation?
t
" A No.
Q Turning to your testimony and Savage Deposition Exhibit No.
1, turning to the third paragraph of Page 1, can you explain
- why the causes described in this paragraph are a more ser-at ious cause of steam generator corrosion than leakage through as the condensor into the secondary system?
as A Well, the combination of the materials of construction and of the chemistry and of pressure tend to make the -- that is the amount of material leaking in from the pond water system 330 DaviDsON SueLDsNG GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. suite aos sie was=*NovoN sooo stava o west sit west Covat SYaEET may CITV. esiCmG AN astoe gaGsNaw esiC*G AN acto 3 FLINT MsCMiG AN 48So3
,i would be relatively low in a variable composition. If the a high pressure leaks to the low pressure, that is if the
(
a 2,000 pound 1:ressure leaks into the shell side of the steam 4 generator, then it's a much more serioirs matter and the a steam generator, according to the materials that are used, e is very likely to be corroided.
7 For instance, if it has copper in it, the amonia will e attack the copper to form a complex and this will create e pitting of round crystals and every time the ion exchangers i
io run out, you'll tend to have corrosive materials come through it from the ion exchangers, 12 Q Is there anything else you would like to add, sir?
is A You do have these dissimilar metals which will set up 14 corrosive couples which will have a voltage difference is between -- say if there's a piece of copper there and a i is piece of nickel there, there would be a voltage difference 17 between the copper and the nickel and that will cause is corrosion also. In addition, you have all these stresses and is strains.
20 Q I think you are referring to the 2,000 pounds per square 21 inch pressure. Are you talking about the pressure in the 22 primary system at the steam generators?
as A Yes, pressure in the primary system would be about 2,000 24 pounds and in the secondary system it would be about 1,000 t as pounds. So if there 's a leak through the driving pressure 33o paviosoas suitoe=G GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE. INC. suif t aoa eis wasmas ato* sooo state a west siewestCoumf staf f ?
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,1 there would be about a 1,000 pounds per square inch so it a would tend to leak more rapidly.
a Q Than a leak in the condensor?
4 A Yes. -
a Q Let me ask you to assume that there will be no careless e operation of the cation and anion exchangers in the secondary 7 system and assume further that the controls for when to blow-e down to be performed will be adequate.
e Would you have a serious concern about the resistance to of the steca generators to corrosion due to the possibility 11 of leaking of pond water through the condensor tubes into 12 the secondary system?
13 A Well, I think your first assumption is not very probable.
14 The thing is you don't know when these exchangers are going is to run out. They're usually delegated to some operator who is just looks at them once a day or something like that. It's 17 difficult to measure when the material is going through and is you'd have a very good analytical system to tell what's in is the bottom of the generator, that is if ions collect in there .
)
zo Q Well, I understand that you object to my hypothesis but let 21 ne ask you again, sir, if the only problem with the secondary a2 water chemistry was due to leakage of pond water through as the condensor tubes, would you be seriously concerned about 2*
the corrosion potential for the steam generator?
2s A You would still have the matter of dissimilar metals and aso Daveoso= euttD'*G GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE. INC. susta ao, sie was.eemsto= sooo sta's a west ein west count staart gav C677. MsCMiGa4 e3too saGiNaw ueCo eGaN 404o3 8 LIN T MICMiGaN 40So3
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. .1 vibrations and mechanical stress. All of those things can
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2 set corrosion.
s Q All right. Let me ask you to weigh those problems so that 4 the only problem is the possible introduction of pond water s into the secondary system through the condensor tubes. Would a that represent a serious corrosion problem to the steam 7 generators 7 s A Over a period of time, you can build up ions even from the o pond and the steam generator and have them cause corrosion.
10 If the condensor were allowed to continue leaking for a long Q
11 period of time, is that correct?
12 A Yes, and also you will have ions picked up from the pipes 13 and the pump and so forth. You have cavitation in the 14 pump which corrodes it.
I 15 Can you estimate how long it would take if your only problem Q
is was due to a leakage in the condensor before you would have 17 a Corrosion problem in the steam generators?
is A It depends a lot on the kind of water that's being put e through the condensor, how much carbon dioxide is in the no system, how much air is in the system, various things like 21 It's very hard to estimate it.
that.
l 22 So at this point you can't, as you sit here today, you can't Q
as make that estimate, is that correct?
2* A Not at this time, no.
t as Q Why is the concern expressed in the third paragraph on this l
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. .1 page, more particularly serious for that unit which supplies a steam to the Dow Chemical' Company?
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i A Because there's so much more make up water, you create a 4 chance of bringing in ions.
s Q Can you tell me --
e A You have to have a great deal -- you use relatively make up 7 in the other unit but a great deal of make up so -- there's e a considerable amount of make up even if only about -- well, e say 20 percent of that were make up and the rest were 10 condensate returned, we don't return all of the condensates.
11 Some of it's used for other purposes, like if you're thawing 12 pipes in the wintertime and things like that. Also there's 13 some processes where the steam condensate can get contami-14 nated and they don't return that either.
8 Q Is it your understanding that the steam from the secondary 18 cycle goes to the Dow Chemical Company and is returned as 17 Condensates together with make up from the Dow Chemical 8 Company and reintroduced into the secondary system?
e A That part that Dow uses would be circulated, ao And reintroduced into the secondary system?
Q a A Yes. It will have to probably go through ion exchangers or am something and filters and so forth first.
as Q Is your statement that there will be careless operation of z* the cation and anion exchangers, very common in the chemical as industry, is that related to the operation of such exchangero aso Daviosom susLDiNG GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. suitt 202 eis waswe=Grom toeo state e nast et t *f st Count STmatt saw Cett. usca+Gaw as70s saGsNa* MiCaiGAN ase03 8 LINT M'CMiGam asse3
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j - 1 at the Dow Chemical Company or at the Midland Plant?
g 2 A It probably would be at both places.
a Q In your experience at Dow, have you observed the careless 4 operation of the cation and the anion exchangers?
s A Well, the ph, they just -- the powerhouse, they just had a e cation exchanger on the sodium cycle. In the plants I had 7 to deal with, we had both cation and anion exchangers. In a
both of these places you can get considerable ph variation.
e So your experience was that the ph --
Q 0 A My experience in the plant was -- in fact, it happened that 11 they had some piping that was Monel at the time which they 12 had to get rid of. Monel has a considerable amount of cop-13 per and every time the ion exchanger would start to run out,
- you'd pick up that copper and have it come through into the is product and with Inconel, you still have copper. You can is also have trouble if your glass electrode fails. You measure 17 ph -- if you're controlling by ph, you have a glass electrode l
8 and a calomel electrode. The calomel electrode is a glass l
18 one with a little fiber up through it and it carries mecuric 20 oxide in it and that little fiber has to be cleaned off once a
in awhile or the electrode will no longer be at the proper sa potential, the same way as the glass electrode which has a 28 little glass bulb that has a certain ph or concentration of 24 Gradually material will make its way acid on the inside.
as through from the outside to the inside and that electrode I
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1, will also change so that you have to change your electrodes 2 every -- probably in continuous operation, you might have
(
a to change them at least every month if not oftener. Not
- cnly that, but the glass electrode can crack and let material s pass through, e
Q Sc your statement here is based on your experience at Dow 7 . that there often is Careless operation 7 e A It isn't always careless. Sometimes it can just be the 8 fault of the measuring devices. Another thing, if you take 10 conductivity, a conductivity cell has little pieces of 1
platinum that have had a black sponge generated on their 12 surface and that can pick up ions and things out of water 3
and no longer give you the-same conductivity as you had
- before, s
Q Okay. And what kind of processes are these ion exchangers used at Dow Chemical?
7 A They are used -- well, in the powerhouse they are used to is move the hard ions in the powerhouse, feed the calcium and that's an ion exchanger that removes those and puts in 8'
sodium. You've got a so-called soft water which tends to ai foam somewhat but it doesn't give you precipitate, if you as have something like soap present and it works all right in as a powerhouse.
24 In some of the plants it's required to have water very free of ions and they could have both the cation and anion ano oav osos swa oi=G GENERAL REPORTING SERvlCE. INC. svitt 202 eis wasm,=Geo* sooo statt o *1st sei*tstcovat st"E t t saw Cit? MsC='Gaw actos Sage %aw MacmiGa= asso3 8Ls t u.c=.G a= 4 0$03
,i exchanger and, in ordar to do that, you'va got to run the a cation on one hydrogen cycle that is regenerating with acid a rather than with salt and then, when you do that, an anion 4 exchanger will absorb the acids as suctr. You can't do that 2 2 a with CO , by the way. CO has to be boiled out with water.
e Q Can you explain what the powerhouse is at Dow?
7 A That's where they have the steam boilers. There's a south a powerhouse and a north powerhouse. The south powerhouse e used to be where the ion exchanger unit was, io Q And they're supplying processed steam for Dow?
is A Yes. In the early days it used to generate electricity 12 also, is Q What is your basis for your statement about careless opera-l 14 tion of the ion exchangers as it applies to the Midland is Plant?
is A Well, it's a matter -- you don't always notice when the ion 17 exchanger runs out because you're dealing with relatively is low concentrations and it may be quite awhile before it is attracts the attention of the operator who's running it, ao You may have other duties to do.
21 Q You are -- is it correct that you are simply applying your an experience at Dow Chemical to the Midland situation, the as Midland Nuclear Plant situation and assuming that Midland 24 Nuclear's Plant experience will be no better than Dow's?
as A Well, it's experience with more than one set of ion aso oaviosom su'LD'wG GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE. INC. su've 202 eie wasm=Gio= sooo statt a west esi west Covat statti SAV CITV. McCMG AN estos sag'New M'CmG AN 40603 8L8NT M'CasiGaN seSc3
,i exchangers and there are these measuring problems.
2 Q Are you familiar with a specific measuring instrument that s they have in place at the Midland Plant or will have in 4 place on the secondary system? "
s A Not the specific ones. Instruments have changed quite a e bit over the years.
7 Q Are you familiar with what alaras there are on the ion a exchangers for other demineralizing equipment that will be e in use at the Mieland Plant?
io A You could have conductivity operated once or ph operated 11 once. They probably could have both.
12 Q But do you know what they have, sir?
is A No.
f 14 Q Okay. Do you know what training the Consumers Power Company is personnel have who are going to be responsible for this is demineralizing equipment?
17 A No.
is Q When was your last experience with Dow ion exchangers?
is A Oh, about 1974 or so.
20 Q All right. Thank you.
21 Can you tell me what is wrong with using ammonia for 22 neutralization?
as A Because if there's any copper, it will form a complex with 24 copper.end have intergranular corrosion. Also, Inconel is I
2s not resistant to a number of things. Inconel has only 330 DaviDSON Su'LDeNG GENE RAL REPORTING SERvlCE, INC. suitt 303 914 WASn*NGTON 30D0 Sta?E D West etI west Coum? Statt?
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. .i partial resistance to ansnonia chloride, for example, so any a chloride ion that comes through from any source, then you'll a have some ansnonia chloride. If any chlorine comes through
.e 4 the water from any source, you'll have corrosion from that.
s HCL or Inconel isn't even too resistant to calcium hydroxide, e if you should have calcium coming through. All these things 7 Can build up, s Q I understand, but the only one that comes from using e ammonia for neutralization would be the ammonium chloride, io is that correct?
11 A Ammonium chloride and the complex copper, ammonium complex, 12 if you have bits of free copper anywhere in any of your metal ,
is fabricated metal.
14 Q Do you know whether there's any copper in the secondary sys-18 tem?
- is A Well, Inconel contains copper.
17 Q Aside from the copper contained in Inconel, do you know of is any copper that is in the secondary system at Midland?
is A I don't know completely what the types of pipe and so forth 20 used are. Most nickel-type alloys are chromium-type alloys l
21 and have copper in them, a little copper in them also.
22 Q But at the present time, apart from the copper in the Inconel ,
as you're not aware of any other copper in the secondary system, 24 is that correct?
as A Yes.
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,i Q Would you expect the copper in the Inconel -- l 2 A Copper can come in the water, too.
a Q Would you expect the copper in the Inconel to leak out of 4 the Inconel due to the presence of anm6hium in the secondary s system water?
s A I think it would give corrosion around the edges of crystals.
7 You have granuals that are exposed rather than actually leak-a ing out. You'd have to have something like chloride or acid a which probably would actually leak it out.
10 Q So that the copper that would be subject to combining with 11 ananonium would be the copper at the surface of the Inconel, 12 is that correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Can you explain what is wrong with using hydrazine for is oxygen scavenging?
is A The hydrazine chemical is a similar material to ammonia so 17 it would have similar properties to ammonia probably.
Se Q Above and beyond the properties that we've already discussed is with respect to ammonia, is there anything else wrong about 20 using hydrazine as an oxygen scavenger in the secondary 21 system?
22 A Well, as an oxygen scavenger, it probably works pretty well.
2: It is, of course, an explosive material under certain cir-24 cumstances.
' as Q Isn't it true that it's explosive when it's in the anhydrous 330 D.wiDSON S usLD*~G GENERAL REPORTING SERvlCE. INC. Suett aos S i e w.5W,%GTON sono 39 73 3 wtST Se e *tST Covet staggt
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2 A In general, yes, but I don't think you really know when a you're at high temperatures. That is, things can decompose
- just because of temperature. I s Do you know what concentrations the hydrazine will be used Q
s in the secondary system?
7 A It's probably low parts per million.
e Do you have any experimental evidence or data which indicater Q
8 that at those concentrations hydrazine can be explosive?
10 A Well, the data given on hydrazine gives it according to 11 temperature generally, the data I've seen.
12 Q Do you know what temperatures the secondary system will 13 operate at?
18 A Probably around 550 Fahrenheit or so which is much the 5
same temperature, I think, at which I've read that hydrazine 18 Can decompose. Hydrazine sulfate in particular can de-17 Compose.
8 At those temperatures, sir?
Q 18 A The other conditions weren't At a temperature like that.
2 Eiven.
at Q Do you have any evidence or experimental data which suggests 22 that those temperatures of hydrazine and the concentrations as that will be used that's explosive?
24 A No.
as Do you believe that the applicant who's going to use Q
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. 1 ammonium chloride as a neutralization agent in the --
2 A Anunonium chloride isn't a neutralization agent. If you're a using ammonia to neutralize something, it's going to neutra-4 lize chloride or sulfate or whatever happens to be there.
- Q So the only way that ammonium chloride would come to be e present in secondary system water would be if chlorides were 7 present from another source and then ammonium was added as e a neutralization agent, is that correct?
s A Yes.
10 Similarly, the --
Q 11 A The water has -- comes before it's -- as I say, if the 2 exchanger runs out, some of that will come through and is similarly chlorides are in the pond and, if some of those
- were to leak through, you'd have chlorides from that source,
" too.
is Q You mentioned another compound chemical, hydrazine something 17 else.
s Can you refresh my recollection of what you said?
A I think I said hydrazine sulfate. Hydrazine is a base that 20 forms salt with whatever acid ions are present just like a 2
cation exchanger.
22 Q Do you believe that the applicant would be adding hydrazine as sulfate to the secondary system?
24 I understand that they're going to A Not hydrazine sulfate.
add hydrazine but I understand, if there's some chloride, l
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. .i the the hydrazine will react with it.
2 Q Again, the chloride or the sulfate would have to come as
- impurities either from the pond or some other source to 4 enter the secondary system, is that co? rect?
.s A The pond or from passing through the ion exchangers or from a some straight piece of metal.
7 Q Okay. Now, you also stated --
e A Or if there were chlorine present. I read that city water a was.to be used the first year. City water is chlorinated.
io If that was an error and they intended to use Huron water, 11 then it wouldn't have chlorine in it.
12 Q With respect to the last statement in this paragraph, you is refer to the failure to establish adequate controls when 14 blowdown should be performed. Do you know what controls is there are for blowdown for --
is A You're going to have to --
17 Q Excuse me, sir.
is A You're going to have ions that accumulate in there. The is places of analysis show them on the way to the generator 20 rather than right in the generator.
21 Q Mr. Savage, I'm afraid we're giving the Court Reporter a na hard time here. Please let me finish. I know that I pause as sometimes in my questions but, if we work together, we can 24 probably make her life a little easier.
as Have you reviewed what the controls are for blowdown ano oaviosoN eviLo'NG GENE RAL REPORTING SERV'CE, INC. suitt 202 ese was=iNGioN sooo statt a wast es t wasv Covat statrY saw CtTV. McCneGaN A070s taGiNa W M'CueGaN 33403 'LsNT WiCMiGaN 4 0503
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' of the Babcock and Wilcox steam generators at the Midland 2 Plant?
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a A No.
l 4 Q And what is your basis for stating tha? there will be a l s failure to establish adequate controls?
e A I would say it was the difficulty in controlling such a 7 gituation beCsuse I was estimating from other plants that .
8 have all these problems that there is a general lack of s such control.
10 Q Are you basing that on your study of these NUFEG documents?
1 A Yes.
12 Q Do you know what the controls on blowdown are for the ones 12 through steam generators?
14 A No.
5 Q Can you tell me in the next paragraph what dissimilar is metals you are referring to?
17 A Well, for instance, you have these spacers or baffles at 18 various places in the height of the generator which are in
" contact with the tubes and those spacers, I believe, are of zo iron whereas the tubes are of Inconel.
2' Q Do you believe that Inconel and stainless steel are dissimila r 82 metals?
as A Yes, although some stainless steels have the same, much the 24 same properties as Inconel for most purposes but your whole as variety of stainless steels have various materials and the ano oaviosom sweLD'*G GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE. INC. suitt aor eis was=e=Giom sooo state. e we at ein westCovat staart saw Civv. M'CneGaN 4e704 sacemaw M*C* Gag 4040s 8 tint wrCmGaN 40503
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, ,1 more resistant ones have say chromium and things like that 2 in them and the less resistant ones could even have things a like aluminum in them.
4 Q Do you know which kind of stainless steel is used in the a Midland steam generators?
e A No.
7 Q Are there any other dissimilar metals in the Midland steam a generators other than the ones we just mentioned?
e A Well, there's also the matter of the tube sheets.
1o Q What material are they made of?
11 A It doesn't specify.
12 Q Do you know -of any other metals or materials that are used is in the steam generators which you are referring to in this
, (
- 14 paragraph as being dissimilar?
is A Well, constituants of the Inconel, is Q Are you stating that the constituants of the Inconel will 17 act independently for purposes of galvanic Corrosion?
is A They could under certain conditions, yes, depending on how is they've been fabricated, how they have been heat treated and 20 so forth.
21 Q Are you prepared to testify under what conditions could 22 occur?
2a A Well, for example, if the separaters in the steam generator 24 broached, it makes a difference when you're broaching, as whether you have to push a tool through or whether you turn suits aca aso DaviosON swi6Di% GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE. INC.
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,1 and burnish the thing. That's one example.
, 2 Q If Inconel and carbon steel are in contact, which will cor-s rode, sir?
4 A I have at someplace here some voltages %ere. At the bottom s of Page 5 there's some electrode potentials and the iron, e that would be about a minus 0.44 volt and the nickel would 7 be about minus 0.23 volt and the copper, it would be a e plus 0.34 volt. So between the iron and the nickel there a would be only about two-tenths of a volt. If the copper to happened to be in contact with the iron, you'd have seven-11 tenths of a volt. Those are just approximate measurements 12 of what kind of effect you'd have, i
13 To illustrate that, between the metal and contact, t
14 there's a thin layer of salt and you will have different 15 voltages with different metals. So that if these metals is come in contact, there would be a different voltage between 17 them.
is Q Is the potential for Inconel shown at the bottom of Page 57 is A It's a picture. I've never seen the potential for Inconel.
20 These are relevant to a hydrogen electrode.
2 Q Well, can you tell me if Inconel and carbon steel are in 22 contact, which will corrode?
as A I think the carbon steel would corrode.
2' Q You believe the carbon steel would corrode?
as A y..,
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. .1 Q Are the corrosive couples that you are discussing on Page 1 a affected by water chemistry?
A It could be to some extent, yes.
4 Q Can you explain why, sir?
s A Well, it depends on the ph of the water and it depends on a whether any of these ions are there. That is, you need ions 7 both to be in contact with the place where the metal is and a to make a bridge across between one piece of metal, one kind e of metal and another kind of metal.
10 Q I see.
11 A And it would undoubtedly depend some upon the ph also and 12 whether -- now, for example, if you have oxygen present, 13 that will tend to make stainless and Incondel types more 14 corrosion resistant even though the corrosion that would is finally occur would be helped by oxygen. That's kind of 18 a peculiar balance that's difficult to explain.
17 Q If the secondary water Chemistry is adequate and the electro-l 1s lyte present in the secondary water chemistry is minimized, is won't that also reduce or minimize the corrosion due to these l 20 couples that you're talking about?
21 A It could tend to. One thing they do sometimes is put in 22 anodes that would corrode more easily, for instance, a piece as of -- for awhile, they were putting pieces of magnesium in i
24 the water heaters and the magnesium anode would corrode and 25 the other wouldn't and sometimes in long lines they apply a l
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,1 potential to these anodes.
- 2 Q Are you aware of any experience of galvanic corrosion in a B & W steam generators?
4 A Well, what I've read in the report theie doesn't distinguish a whether it's galvanic or otherwise if I remember rightly, s Q Sir, would you please look at NUREG-0571 and indicate whether 7 there's anything in there which you relied on to support the e proposition that such corrosion may occur in B & W steam o generators? ,.
Ay,u.y 10 A Here they say they add hydrezine to dissolve oxygen rather 11 than --
12 Q I think we've been assuming, sir, that that's a typographical l 13 error.
14 A 1 don't see where it would be considering any such corrosion 15 in writing their report.
16 Q Is it Correct that they have not reported any galvanic 17 Corrosion?
is A Or have not differentiated from mechanical. This report is 18 essentially on mechanical problems.
2o Q Okay. Moving on --
21 A One other thing they plan to do in the future is to study 22 corrosion.
28 Q What page are you referring to there?
24 A A3, 4, 5/3.
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4 i there?
2 A Corrosion and other materials related to tube failure a phenomenon.
4 ,Q But they don't mention galvanic corrosien here, is that cor-a rect?
e A No, they don't mention materials or the composition of most 7 of the parts of the thing. It's almost purely mechanical.
s Q They're going to do what?
o A They indicate in their photomicrographs towards the end of to it for Brookhaven and Franklin that there could have been 11 galvanic corrosion.
12 Q My understanding of NUREG-0916, and correct me if I'm wrong, is was that they attributed the tube failure to foreign objects.
14 A Yes, that was foreign objects, but some of the pictures in is back of the thing, there seems to be some intergranular is corrosion.
17 Q So that you derive from NUREG-0916 the conclusion that the is tube failure was caused by foreign objects but there may is have been some intergranular stress corrosion?
20 A Yes.
21 Q As well?
22 A Yes.
22 Q The next paragraph, you state that -- I'm sorry. In the 24 next sentence you state that chemical components will aid 2s in the initiation of intergranular corrosion cracking.
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1 Are you referring to the hydrazine and the ammonium?
4
- A Particularly the ammonium, yes, and any chlorides or what-a not that could leak in.
- Q What mechanical stresses are you referfing to in that sen-a tence?
e A Well, this has the tubes fixed at both ends as compared to 7 the loop type one that some of the other companies use.
8 So there's a tendency to have a column affect on the tubes, s that's one stress.
10 Another stress is the expansion of the tubes to fit into the tube sheet. Another stress is vibration, par-12 ticularly at the point at and above the surface of the 3 liquid. There will tend to be more vibration above that.
- There will be vibration between the spacers and the tubes.
s Q Is intergranular corrosion the same as galvanic corrosion, a sir?
17 A Not necessarily, no. If you had -- galvanic corrosion would 8 be where there were metals of a different kind. Some stain-
'8 less steels consist of rather large granules and those will ao corrode around the outside of those granules. So some stain-2' less steels are a solid solution and others are more
- as austenitic type which you can have fairly good sized
- granules in them and eventually you'll have a little shallow l
l l
24 eating out around each granule.
28 There was some mention there that some of them had suits 202 ano oaviosom suso.NG GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE. INC.
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, .i eaten down to 20 percent of the thickness, I think it said.
2 Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it was 20 percent in, but there was a something like that said.
4 Q Is the intergranular corrosica -- I'm s'orry, ,
I s Is the corrosion described in the Ginna NUREG-0916 e intergranular corrosion or galva'se sorrosion?
7 A There were some pictures that showed intergranular corrosion.
s Q So that there's nothing --
s A There's nothing in there of galvanic corrosion as such 10 probably.
11 Q Okay. Moving on, you state that the chemicals chosen are 12 not well suited to the materials of construction.
13 A Well, that really was the ammonia was not suited to the 14 presence of possible copper is what I should have said, is Q I see. What is your basis for the statement two paragraphs is down that the shutdown procedure in the Ginna system was 17 haph8Zard and erratic 7 is A Well, they didn't seem to have any procedures to what to do is when the computer failed.
20 Q The computer failed, sir?
21 A I believe it says the computer failed so they operated by 22 hand.
as Q You refer to NUREG-0537. Do you mean NUREG-0916, the Ginna 24 Report, in that sentence?
' ** A I guess I have the number wrong.
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, ,i Q Okay. And is there any other -- and are you basing your a statement about the shutdown procedure being haphazard and a qrratic on your reading of the Ginna NUREG7 A Yes. +
4 s Q You don't have any independent knowledge of Ginna even other o that what 'you've read in this NUREG?
7 A h.
e Q That's correct?
e A Yes.
io Q Is there any other aspect of the shutdown procedure at the is Ginna system that struck you as haphazard and erratic?
12 A Well, there were opening valves and there were closing is valves and so forth.
54 Q I'll hand you NUREG-0916 and ask you to read the last two is paragraphs in Section 2.2.3 entitled Procedures and, after is you've read that, would you please comment on whether you 17 agree or disagree with the statements, conclusione presented is there?
is A Well, essentially it says there were significant deviations 20 by plant personnel that were consciously made following a 21 study of their consequences before execution. That's sort 22 of double talk. How can they know the consequences before as they execute it.
24 Q So you belfeve that the statements that are made in that
(
2s NUREG concerning operator action are double talk?
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1 A No. I say that the statement, the significant deviations 2 from the procedure by plant personnel were consciously made a following a study of their consequences before execution, 4 I say that's a difficult sentence to follow. They made 8 significant deviations from the procedure they had outlined, e that's clear. They did it consciously. But how they could 7 know what was going to happen before it had happened is the
- question. This statement is perhaps of not such great im-8 portance.
" One thing you have to realize is that you're very near
" the critical point of water. Are you familiar with the a critical point?
13 Q I was going to ask you about that later, sir.
- A You're within 100 degrees Fahrenheit roughly of that, s I will ask you about that later, sir.
Q
" I assume that's what you are referring to when you say 17 that there was a narrow margin of safety as potential pres-8 sure and temperature?
" A Yes. There was a report in the paper that there was a 90 zo second margin of the Salem event where that was reported 21 recently. In other words, if they didn't act within 90 22 seconds, their water would probably be past the critical as point and you would have no cooling.
8' Q Do you know what kind of reactor Ginna is?
28 A Do you mean the reactor itself?
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1 Q The vendor, is it Babcock and Wilcox or is it Westinghouse 2 or --
a A I've forgotten. It was in there but I've forgotten. I 4 think it was Babcock and Wilcox but I'& not sure.
s Q If it were Westinghouse, would that change in your mind the e relevance of your statements about the shutdown procedures 7 followed by the plant operators?
e A I guess I'm not that aware of the difference in reactors, s Q Or in the shutdown procedures for those reactors?
10 A Yes.
11 Q That's correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q You state that the incidence of tube failures in steam 14 generators is increasing with time.
15 What do you mean by incidence of tube failures, do you is mean the absolute numbers or the --
17 A Well, you go through these reports and the number of tubes, is for instance, that have to be blocked off in the areas where is these spacers come in from the outside increases with time 20 and that, by the way, is galvanic corrosion there.
21 Q So are you referring to other steam generators or Babcock and 2: Wilcox steam generators?
88 A I think it was in both reports, at least in the one that had 2* all of them in them.
That's NUREG-0886 Steam Generator Tube Experience?
2' Q
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1 A There were places where they had a series of illustrations a in one of these. There's one of these that with time showed a how many tubes had to be plugged, how many tubes had to be O
4 plugged off.
s Q I see, e A So you would have say one or two tubes near one of these 7 places first and then maybe you'd have five tubes in that e area and maybe in another area you'd have 10 tubes.
s Q Tubes that:are blocked you mean?
10 A Would have had to be blocked off because they leak.
11 Q You state that improved materials of construction and 12 improved design and fabrication and compatible water chemi-13 stry are needed before permission is given for any more unitt 14 to start up, is What do you mean by compatible water chemistry?
is A Well, I guess I'm referring specifically to the use of 17 ammonia for one thing and the fact they haven't studied per-is haps enough the effects of corrosion and couples yet on the
" water chemistry. You already have a lot of reactors going zo where they're getting these effects and having plugged tubes 1
2 and things and they need to get to the bottom of that.
az Q Well, what improsements in design and fabrication would you f as suggest?
- A Well, they've got to avoid having excessive vibration in as the looped type. You've got to avoid having too much column a30 caviosoN eviLoiNG GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. suitt 202 sooo stata a west sie west covat sentet sis was=i=Gto= FLINT, 48'CuiG AN 40503 eat Gitt thCueGaN attoe s4GiNaw estCniGaN aSGo3
1 effect in the Babcock and Wilcox type and I think they ought 2 to look further into what the materials of construction for a the thing are to be and test under -- well, they are getting
- tests but they ought to go on with their tests further a before they have more units that repeat the same problem.
s Q Can you suggest any improvements in water chemistry, some-7 thing other than ammonium that you would like to use?
e A Ammonium is supposed to scavange acids and to neutralize e any -- well, to neutralize any acids that might be there,
- c. . :s - e i
- I would think that a trace of caustic perhaps would be as
" good or better than ammonium.
i 1:
Q A trace of caustic. What is caustic, sir?
3 A Sodium hydroxide, potassium hydroxide. See, these stainicas
- type things are made passive initially by forming a very, 8 very thin layer of oxide on the outside. If that layer of 8 oxide is lost, they can't restore it again and it would be 17 less likely to be lost where it's say you had a little e caustic or something like that than if you had something like
" ammonia which can assist in eating into any copper or what-l
! 8' not that might be present in the alloy.
8' Q Mr. Savage, I would suggest that we take a break now and sa come back to this and I'll try to move faster as we go as through the rest of your testimony, if that's all right, and
- 1et's take a 10 minute break.
- (Whereupon a short recess was had.)
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1 MR. STEPTOE: Let'o go back on the record.
2 Let the record reflect that Ms. Sinclair had to leave and s I have informed her that we would provide her with a copy of 4 the deposition transcript. ,
s Q (By Mr. Steptoe, continuing): Mr. Savage, turning to Page e 2 of Savage Deposition Exhibit No. 1, Paragraph 1, the last 7 sentence, it says that any gases will tend to accumulate e above the upper tube sheet in the generator. What gases are s you referring to?
10 A Well, any dissolved air or CO 2 that comes in and dissolves 11 in the water or perhaps infinite tesamil.'There are 12 essential gases that would be dissolved in the water.
1a Q If they are dissolved in --
14 A Well, when you boil the water, then gases will separate.
15 Q Is the water in the primary coolant boiling?
is A No, excuse me, it isn't. Any gases would come probably 17 either from being dissolved in the water or come off from is the nuclear core is what I should have said.
18 Q Do you know what kind of gases come off the nuclear core?
20 A I think like radon and possibly a little deuterium.
21 Q Are these gases dissolved in the primary coolant?
22 A I don't know.
28 Q Do you know whether radon and deuterium gases are formed in 24 the reactor during normal operating conditions?
25 A Oh, they are vented, I believe, GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE. INC. suite 202 ano oavioso= su'Lo'NG S e e WEST Coumfstegt?
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i Q From the primary system, cir?
2 A There's been much argument about them as a matter of atmos-a pheric contamination. I believe that very small amounts are 4 formed during normal operation.
s Q If any gases are dissolved in the primary coolant, why will e they accumulate above the upper tube sheet in the generator 7 rather than passing through the generator with the coolant?
e A Well, they tend to go through a high point.
Q If they're dissolved in the coolant, will they tend to go 10 to a high point?
11 A Not if they're dissolved but, if there's free bubbles of 12 gas, any bubbles of gas would tend to accumulate in a high 13 point.
14 Q Do you know whether there are free bubbles of gas in the is primary coolant of a pressurized water reactor during normal is operation?
17 A This I don't know.
l is Q Moving on to Paragraph No. 3, the second sentence, you refer i
j is to cooling water (service water) from the pond.
20 Are you referring there to circulating water?
21 A The water that circulates through the condensor, yes. It's l 22 like the water that's used in the condensors at Dow that's as put through coarse screens which take out the fish and weeds 2* and things.
as Q Paragraph No. 4 is a description of the steam sold to Dow GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE. INC. suett 202 aso Davioso= ew'LD'NG es t west Count sent Et ote wasae=GioN sooo statt e *tst gag,waw u cmigam 4e6o3 'LsNT. MitwiGam asso3 saw Cevv usCa'Ga= estoe
1 Chemical Company.
a A Yes.
a Q The sentence that begins, that one may suppose that the steam
- is withdrawn interstage between the tufbogenerator stages, s and then vcu go on to describe that, do you know for a fact a that that is the way that the steam is withdrawn?
7 A No. Well, that's a logical way to do it.
e Q But you have not reviewed the design of the turbogenerators e to confirm this?
10 A Well, you would want to bring it to -- this would bring it 11 to the proper measures at which it would be withdrawn. You 12 certainly wouldn't want to waste the electricity that might is be made by expanding it to that extent.
14 Q But is it correct -- am I correct in stating that this 15 description is based on your supposition rather than your is actual review of the design?
17 A Yes. The Stage 3 steam, high pressure steam or, excuse me, is the low pressure steam specified is 25 pounds higher than is what Dow generates at the present, 150 pounds of steam at th e 20 plant.
21 Q Referring to Paragraph No. 5, you state that perhaps 80 22 percent of the steam sold to Dow would be returned as con-as densate and then reused.
z* First of all, is the 80 percent figure again a supposi-as tion on your part?
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1 A That is withing perhaps a plus or minus five percent of what a the experience used to be when I was working. There would a be so much loss of steam either because it was used directly
- like to thaw frozen line or it got somh kind of contaminant s in it or it was used directly and went out the sewer or 8 something like that.
7 Q So you're basing this estimate on the experience at Dow s using the powerhouse and Dow's own process steam system, is that correct?
" A Yes.
" Okay. Again, could you explain how this steam would be re-Q a
used?
3 A Well, the condensate would come back and be put probably
" through the demineralizers and be circulated around just as
" it is in the powerhouse.
" Circulated around the secondary system?
Q
" A Yes, to make steam.
" Now, the last sentence on this page begins with the word Q
it. Are you referring there to condensates or to make up water?
2' A Probably the combination of the two.
as q y,m sorry.
as However it was handled, A Probably a combination of the two.
24 you could run them all together in a tank or at times you
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,i on how much you had on hand.
2 Q Do you know that this condensate and/or the fresh water from a Dow will be used for make up to the primary cooling system?
4 A Well, it's just condensed steam. It wIuld be perfectly good, s Q But do you know whether it is going to be used for that pur-e -
pose, sir?
7 A I guess not, o Q Okay. Turning to the next page, Paragraph 6, what are you o referring to when you in the second line refer to the Dow to Chemical Company's upstream operation?
11 A As I say a little farther down, most of the river gets 12 circulated through the plants several times before it comes is on downstream.
14 Q So you're referring to the distharge structure of Dow Chemi-is cal?
in A Some of the water discharged from Dow will make its way into 17 the pond, How many discharge structures does Dow have, do you know?
is Q is A I don't know now. They've changed it since I retired.
2o Q Do you know -- well, are you saying that the Dow discharge 21 is upstream of the Midland pond intake?
22 A Yes.
as Q Is this based on your personal observation?
24 A They had a discharge way up by their west side powerhouse as at one time. They had one near the end of Main Street at one aso Daviosom ev'Lo*G GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. soitt 202 ele wasas=GTom sooo statt a west si e west Cowat stas tt saw CITT MiCasGa8e detot 34Gema* M'Cw'G AN asso3 8 biNT w'CasGew a05o3
time.
1 2 Q Do you know where the discharge structure is located now a with respect to the intake structure for the nuclear p'ower 4 plant pond? ",
s A I think now there's probably more than one because one would a discharge from things that they put through water treatment, 7 taking stuff out for incineration whereas the other one would a be just really the discharge of water that had been through e condensors and things like that.
to Q Well, you're speculating, are you not, about where the dis-11 charge structures are at the present time?
12 A Well, there's only one about 300 yards or so above, I think, is where this intake for the pond is, but I think also there's 14 a discharge farther upstream, is Q How do you know that, sir, is that based on your personal is observation or your memory or what?
17 A Personal observation.
is Q When was the last time that you observed the relative --
- is well, the location of the discharge structure for the Midland 20 Plant or, I'm sorry, for the Dow Plant?
21 A Oh, it was a few years ago, aa Q Have you seen it since they changed the location?
as A No.
24 If the discharge structure --
Q as A Well, I'm not making this issue a primary contaminant. I'm a3o oaviosom swiLD*NG GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE. INC. suitt 202 eis wasa Notom sooo statt a west sii west Cownt statti saw Cett. M*CmGaN ettoe GeNaw uscueG AN 4e403 WLeNT. M'CmG AN 4,503
1 just saying it's one of the points.
2 Q So if the discharge structure were downstream of the intake a structure for the Midland Nuclear Plant cooling pond, that 4 would not substantially effect your teTrtimony, is that cor-a rect?
e A Yes. One time long ago there was discharge from the chemical 7 plant at St. Louis and from the Pure Oil Refinery that used a to be across the river from Dow into the river where Dow s got its water, too.
10 Q Is that on the Titabawassee?
11 A Yes.
12 And is that upstream?
Q 13 A St. Louis is on the Chippewa which comes into the Titabawasst e 14 in the middle of town but then the Pure Oil Plant was below is that, right opposite Dow. They had a refinery there at one is time that discharged into the river.
17 In Paragraph (b), you state that it is intended initially Q
is to use Midland City water (Huron water would serve as well) 18 as make up, and after the first year to use ion exchange ao water from the Dow Chemical Company.
21 What is your basis for that statement?
a2 A Mr. Hillman said that, as Q Do you have a copy of that testimony in front of you, sir?
I 24 A Yes, as Q Can you show me where he says that? I guess I can refer you ano oaviosom ew'Lo**G GENERAL REPORTING SE RVICE, INC. suita 232 ese wasa NG?om sooo state e west sii wast Covat stma a t s av CiTT. M'CueG A*e 48104 SaGema* MaCw'G A's 4060 3 PieNT MiCm G AN e8S03
1 to Page 6 of his testimony, the middle paragraph.
2 A Well, the plant make up demineralized its system, takes its a normal suction from the City of Midland Water System but can 4 use Dow as a back up source. O s Q Is that what you were recalling from Mr. Hillman's testimony 1 s A Yes.
7 Q Does that say anything about after the first year using the s water from the Dow Chemical Company?
s A I saw that someplace in one of the things I read. It was in 50 a place where they were discussing, and I think it was one 11 of those ones, where they were discussing the fact that 12 because Dow was using the steam and was supplying make up 13 water, that they wouldn't further discuss it in that report,
wherever it was, one of these environmental things.
15 Q Okay. If it were the case that, as Mr. Hillman's testimony, e states, that the plant make up demineralizer system takes 17 its normal suction from the city water of Midland Water Sys-e tem but can use Dow Chemical Company's demineralized water 8 as a backup source and, further the case, that in either ao event the source of water is processed through the plant 21 make up demineralizers to assure proper quality, if that's as true?
as A Right here it says -- that was the condensate storage you're
" asking about?
as Q Well, if that's true, isn't your discussion on Page 3 and 4 a no o.vio.o~ . wild'NG GENERAL REPORTING SERvlCE, INC. Suit. 202
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,1 of the Dow domineralizing system, their cation exchange water ,
2 their water cycle and their anion exchange water, irrelevant 1 a A No, the reason being city water has been limed and chlori-4 nated and contains flouride ions which*are put into prevent s tooth decay. Chlorine, when they have a leak around the a city, is so strong that it comes up and bothers your er s 7 when you're in the bathtub. Normally it isn't that much but a the chlorine -- hydrochloride is something that both stain-9 less steel and Inconel are not resistant to.
1o The effect of flouride is relatively unknown. There is hasn't been much study done of that but the lime has been 12 used to remove calcium and magnesium. In order to see what is happens when the ion exchanger runs out, you have to start 14 with a composition that would normally be fed into it to see is what the possibilities are, aio it isn't irrelevant.
,' v is Q If they were not using Dow water in the secondary primary 17 system at the nuclear power plant, then would your discussions is of the Dow demineralizing processes in Paragraph 6 (b), (c),
is (d) and (e) be irrelevant?
I 2o A Well, there's an explanation of how our demineralizers work.
21 Some of this I had to put in so that Mrs. Sinclair would under-22 stand it and so that perhaps you would understand it. It's as a fairly complicated business. ,
e 24 Q But if the Dow water is not used in the secondary primary 2s system, then the discussion of the Dow demineralization 33o DaviosoN susto'NG GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE. INC. suitt zoa sie wasm.NGtcN so,o statt e west s *EST Cown? staE ET cav CITT. MiCMiG AN 48706 saGeseaw McCaiG AN esto3 'AsNT. MecesiGaN actos
1 process is not ralsvant to your testimony, is that corract? )
gg : A Unless they put the condensate through it before sending it a back. It's much the same thing whether it's demineralized 4 by Dow or by Consumers Power. You haveithe same possibilities.
s Q You state that it is the commonest thing in the world for e operstors to permit this to occur. That's at the top of 7 Page 4 e You're referring to exhaustion of the cation exchanger e and that's based on your experience at Dow?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And it applies to -- well, strike that.
12 In Paragraph (f), you state that if city water is used, 13 it will contain chlorine, which is not removed by an .
14 exchanger.
15 Does chlorine break down into chloride ions when it is 18 put in water?
17 A It Could give you chloride plus hydrochloride.
is Q Is there a principal that --
1s A It will depend on the ph, which ions you would get from l 20 chlorine breaking down.
l l 21 Q Are you able to estimate the percentage of the chlorine whict a2 will remain in the form of chlorine and the percentage which 23 is in other forms in city water?
a* A Well, if it completely decomposed, it would be half chlorine l /
as probably and half hydrochloride but alkaline ph. It might
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,1 -- if you got really acid, you could get chlorine dioxide 2 which on a large scale is very explosive but that's not a of consequence here. There's an equilibrium between chlorine 4 and water that changes with ph. O s Q Is it true that the deminervlizers do remove chloride? ,
e A Yes, and an ion demineralizer of the right type will also 7 remove chloride, s Q Demineralizers also remove hydrochloride?
e A I believe it's relatively poorly removed because, see, what 10 an anion exchanger does is absorb acid as such. It has 11 basic groups on it like mean groups and it will absorb acids 12 as such whereas a cation exchanger just exchanges either is sodium or hydrogen depending on the cycle for heavier things 14 like magnesium and calcium and so forth, is Q Are you able to estimate how -- what concentration of is chlorine will remain in the demineralized water after it's 17 passed through the Midland Nuclear Plant make up demineralize r 18 system stored in the condensates at the storage tank?
is A It probably depends on whether you do some heating to drive 20 off carbon dioxide which is also generally not absorbed by 21 an ion exchanger. It can be very corrosive.
aa So is it correct to say that without further information, Q
as you are unable to estimate?
24 A I'm unable to say definitely.
' as Q Okay. Why do you say that the fate of the flourine ions.--
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1 is it fluorine or fluoride?
a A Fluoride.
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a Q That the fluoride ions are uncertain?
4 A It'sinthesamechemicalseriesasch5 trine,bromineand s iodine, higher up, and it's enough difference that they don't :
s really know very much about how it acts.
7 Q Is it removed by demineralizers?
e A I don't know. I never seen a figure for it. Usually they a give a table of things in which they're likely to be removed 10 and I've not seen a table that has those in it.
11 Q So at the present time, without further information, you're 12 unable to estimate how much of that fluoride would remain is in the demineralized water at the nuclear power plant?
14 A Yes.
is Q And you state that ion exchange resins -- I'm sorry. You is state that if the cation resin enters the anion exchanger, i'
17 the result is uncertain.
is Do you mean you don't know what would happen? I 18 A Well, it would -- we would be having a reverse action.
20 Q Would you expect this to cause an explosion?
a A No, no, nothing like that. It would just change the effec-22 tiveness of the exchanger, that's all.
as Q Would one resin destroy the effectiveness of the exchanger? l l
a* A Well, they would be working at cross purposes. l
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1 have to go into the anion exchanger to cause a significant a degradation in its performance?
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a A Well, the cation -- the anion exchanger is absorbing acids.
4 ThecationexchangerabsorbsandhasoIit,itwouldbe s absorbing minerals like calcium and so forth. So then if a you put minerals into a place where there's acids, some of 7 those, some of the Calcium will be taken off by the acid a groups that are there and you'll have calcium sulfate or a whatever happens to be there. So if you didn't have a way 10 ofkeeping51ndsandwhatnotfromcarryingover,sayifthey
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11 were transient surges, then this can happen. It depends on 12 whether there are filters or not and it depends on whether 13 you're heating up from below or down from above.
14 Is it fair to say that, as you sit here, you don't know Q
is enough about the specifics of the design of the system at 18 Midland to tell whether that may be a problem or not?
17 A No, I don't know that, because these resins have been im-18 proved and changed in density and that sort of thing. I l
l 1s have known it to happan that one carried over into another 20 and after awhile you had to throw that resin away.
21 In Paragraph 7 at the bottom of the page, you talk about the
[ Q l
22 steam generator. You state that if one assumes a factor of i
as safety of 6, the working pressure of the tubes is about 24 1,500 psig.
' 28 A Yes.
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1 Q Where did you get your assumption of a safety factor of l 2 67
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- A I calculated that from the dimensions of the tube and the 4 wall thickness and so forth. I don't think it's an unrea-8 sonable safety factor.
s Q Can you point to any official document which gave you that 7 safety factor or is that basically your judgment about what a would be a reasonable safety factor?
8 A I calculated that using the formula in my engineering hand-0 book.
" Q Do you know what the minimum thickness --
2 If the factor of safety were say four, it would still be A
8 safe and you could go up into a higher pressure like 2,000
- pounds.
Q I'm sorry. What is the factor of safety that you're de-8 fining there, because your last answer confused me. I 17 thought if the factor of safety would be greater that you is __
A You take the strength of the material and the wall thickness ao and you apply that in a formula and you get -- if you have 21 -- you assume a factor of safety and then you get a pressure, 22 If you have a pressure, then you can get a factor of safety.
as Q Does that represent the ratio of the failure pressure over 24 the working pressure of the tubes?
A Essentially. Well, let's see. No, it's a matter of the spo paviosom suitD'NG GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE. INC. suite ao eis wasa*%Grom sooo stats a west sit west Covat svaret
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1 strength of the metal.
g 2 Q Well, does your factor of safety of 6 mean that the tubes !
a could withstand about 9,000 psig?
4 A That's iu -- that's what it means, yes7- That's essentially a what it means but you, of course, aren't going to work at a that. In designing all kinds of things, you use a factor 7 like that.
s Q Are you familiar with the Accident Analyses which have been e done for steam generator transients at this plant and what 10 they assunied about the minimum wall thickness of the Inconel 11 tubes?
12 A I guess I'm not.
13 Q Okay.
14 A But supposedly you can have a five percent variation in 15 tubes, wall thickness. That is, if you take a whole lot of 1s tubes, they shouldn't vary more than five percent.
17 Q With respect to Page 5, you list a number of chemicals is starting with anunonium chloride with respect to which you
' is state Inconel has only partial resistance.
2o Do you know what the pennissible quantities or concentra -
- 2 tions of these chemicals is in the secondary system water 22 chemistry?
as A The way this is gotten at is that they took all of the data 2* that was available in the industry at the time they made the 25 tables for this handbook and a lot of it came from the DuPont aso oaviosow evitoiNG GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE. INC. svett aca sit wtst Covet svagt?
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,1 Company and they'd rate things as either A if they with-a stand the materisl or X if it was variable or they have 4
a another thing for complete failure. So these are average
- things, average resistance. Like wherE partial resistance s is stated, it may be A at 40 degrees and five percent. It ;
I e might he X at 90 degrees and three percent or 40 percent, 7 depending on how the data has been assembled, but it isn't e a complete thing that gives a test under every possible e set of conditions and I will say that there weren't any at to nearly as high temperatures as you're involved with now.
11 Q Were there any at -- first of all, do you know what the 12 permissible concentrations are for the Midland Plant secon-is dary water system with respect to these chemicals?
18 A Oh, I would imagine it was zero.
is Q But do you know, sir?
is A The thing is, if you've got a crack around a crystal or 17 something, it can be relatively high even though that crystal is is low in the body of water.
to Q Do you know, sir, what the permissible limitations in the ao Midland Plant secondary water system are?
21 A I guess I don't know specific ones unless they were in this.
22 There were some concentrations here, as Q And you're referring to Mr. Hillman's testimony?
t a* A Yes.
I i as Are the values in the Perry Chemical Engineer's Handbook for Q
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i ccnccntrations as low ac cua might expset to find in tha a secondary system in the Midland Nuclear Power Plant?
a A Well, there are some that are quite low but they're probably 4 not that low. ,
s Q Well, specifically, do you recall what the percentages were?
e A The ones were lowest on things like chlorine, for example.
7 Q Do you remember what the concentrations, the stated con-e centrations in Perry Chemical Engineer's Handbook were with a respect to these chemicals?
io A Probably the lowest with respect to aranonium chloride would 11 be a few percent. The calcium hydrochloride, that would be ia lower than that, and chlorine, it would be down very low.
is HCL and so forth are measured by ph.
14 Q But as you sit here today, sir, do you remember what those is percentages were as stated in Perry Chemical Engineer's is Handbook?
17 A Well, they were not in parts per million, if that's what you is mean.
is Q But you don't have any more specific recollection?
ao A No. Generally they were in the order of a few percent ex-21 cept for the ones like chlorine, as I say, which is very low 22 parts and acids. It depends on the ph, as measured by the as ph.
24 Q Do you know whether the demineralizer systems in other water as purification systems in use in the Midland Plant secondary ano oaviosom suitoi=G GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. suite aos i I eie wasaimotow sooo stats e-west sit west count staaet )
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, .1 water system are capable of removing these chemicals?
a A Well, as I say, you can't in general remove chlorine but the
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a others could be removed, yes. The hydrochloride would be 4 an equilibrium with some chlorine and it would be uncertain a whether you would remove it all. n.e calcium would be e pretty completely removed. I mentioned phosphoric which has 7 nothing to do with this here because we -- there were fail-e ures in some of these reports where phosphates had been used e initially as buffering materials but you don't have any 10 buffering materials here.
11 Q Paragraph (a) on Page 5, you're talking about pressure.
12 A Yes.
13 Q And temperature?
14 A Yes.
15 Could you explain what you mean by the critical points in Q
is this discussion?
17 A These temperatures and pressures are taken from a steam is table. If you put some water say half full in a vacuum is sealed glass tube of a heavy enough wall thickness that would 23 be half full with water and heated it up, there would come at a point -- normally water has a meniscus which is concaved 22 downward with things like mercury and things like this in sa them. When the temperature --
24 Q Could you spell meniscus for the Reporter?
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, , you get 705.4 degrees Fahrenheit, the meniscus will dis-g 2 appear. You will have only a gas. You won't have any liquic .,
8 You won't have any vapor. You'll have only a gas and the 4 pressurewillbethattimes3206.2pouddspersquareinch s absolute.
s Now, when it's a gas, it doesn't work very well for 7 Cooling and it Could keep you from pumping water into your
- reactor.
e Are the values in this table applicable to sub-cooled water?
Q O A Water in general.
" Q Are they applicable to super heated steam?
2 A Well, if your steam, your super heated steam is what's an 3 equilibrium or is not an equilibrium, it's a higher tempera-
- ture than it was saturated steam, but the critical point 18 will apply to any kind of water.
18 When you are using the word or the term critical point, Q
17 you're referring to the properties of water and not to nu-e clear criticality, is that correct?
8 A i
That's right.
I 2o Q And you say the reactor would run away.
2 A That's because there would be no cooling anymore.
22 Q What do you mean by run away?
A Well, it would keep heating up if you had no cooling to a* It would heat up and -- while you should have dropped react.
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a Q I see. Do you know what --
4 A We have had, by the way, a very serioue-explosion in the s lab when somebody had an ether in a metal pipe and he heated a that up above the critical point and just wrecked the lab 7 he was working in just from a few drops of it. It was like e TNT or something when it went beyond the critical point.
s Q But you wouldn't expect water to behave like TNT when it to exceeds the critical point, would you, sir?
11 A Well, it would no longer cool it. It would just be there 12 as a gas.
13 Q I see. Do you know at what temperature the reactor protec-14 tion system is designed to scram the reactor at Midlan.l?
Is A I guess I don't know'for that particular reactor, no.
is Q Do you know what the set points are for the various relief 17 valves present on the Midland reactor?
is A No.
18 Q Do you know whether the pressures could rise to 3,200 psia 40 given the existence of those relief valves?
21 A I would hope it wouldn't.
22 Q Do you know, sir?
as A No, I don't know.
24 Q If the relief valves, the pressure relief valves operated properly and kept the pressure below approximately 2,500 --
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2
( Q Okay, a
A And if the pumps would work all right.
- Well,evenifthepumpsdon'tworkall$ight, as long as Q
8 pressure relief valves operate to keep the pressure below
- 2,500 psia, it would be all right?
7 A Well, you'd have to keep putting water in somehow or you'd
- have bare rods and everything. You don't want to have bare rods.
'j
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e Q You mean the water would drop below the level of the coolant?
" A Yes.
12 Q Do you know whether that could be done without the reactor pumps operating?
A No. I don't know what the relative volume of the reactor is to the volume of the rods for the height of the rods.
Q On Page 6, sir -- I'm trying to skip over the questions that
" I've already asked you.
You refer somewhere here to the liquid-vapor interface I in the steam generators.
- Could you describe the interface and tell me whether it 2i occurs at a constant point?
sa A Well, there will be steam rising through the tubes so that
- they will tend to be sort of a lot -- it would depend on whether the tubes would be vertical or slanted. If you have inclined tubes, the water that is carried up as foam, say it aso paviosoN muito**G GENE RAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. Suett 202 eie was==GioN sooo statt a west 8 8 ' West covat svnagt Dav CITT. M*CW*G AN ae*08 gagsNaw weCMiGaN assos punt M'CueGaN aeS03
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a steam and then there's a separator up above which would 3
4 separate that water and send it back d'own probably into the a annulus.
e Q At Paragraph 8 you talk about the condensor. Do you know 7 what the -- is it correct to say that you were speculating e about what the construction of the condensor is here?
e A Yes, I'm speculating about the pressure. They probably 10 operate with a better vacuum than that in order to make use 11 of more heat.
12 Do you know what kind of galvanic protection there is for the Q
18 condensor?
l 14 A Oh, there probably isn't any on the tubes. You wouldn't l 15 really need it on that shell side because it's just steam is coming down there. i
, 17 Q What do you mean by the statement that the sulphuric acid is will -- which is used to regenerate the cation exchangers 18 will enter the pond partly neutralized?
zo A Well, generally for most regenerations you use more salt and a
more acid than is actually required to do it, particularly as when you're regenerating a cation exchanger with salt. For as example, you have to have a big mass action effect that has 24 much more salt than is needed in order to take such things as as calcium off because calcium is held on much more firmly.
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4 Q What is your bais in Pargraph 9 at the bottom of Page 6 for '
s your statement that the Babcock and Wilzox steam generator a suffers from a lack of provision for thermal expansion?
7 A Well, what I said was, if the tubes were exactly the right a length at room temperature, then when the tubes expand, - -
o they're going to tend to push against the tube sheet.
10 Similarly, if they're just the right length, when the thing 11 is held in a kneeling furnace, then it will be the opposite 12 way when it cools down. There will be a tendency to push 13 on the tubes. This is like a column effect. When a column t
14 d.s' pushed on, if it bends at all, it has failed. So if the 15 tubes bend at all, they tend to have failed.
18 Q 1811 ggk you to assume that the tubes are -- that the manu-17 facturer of the steam generator is such that the tubes are is intentioned at room temperature but in compression at 18 operating temperature. I'll ask you further to assume that 20 the proportional limit is not exceeded in either situation.
21 Under those circumstances, would there be in your judg-22 ment adequate provision for thermal expansion?
23 A Let's see. Intention when it's room temperature and in a 24 slight compression less than the proportional limit, then
' as you should be all right. But the other kind of generator, of I
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- Q On Page 7 you talk about tube failures 7--
s Are you aware of any failures of this type in Babcock e and Wilcox steam generators?
7 A Well, there's a discussion here in this literature.
s Does the literature describe any failures involving, I guess, I Q
l e double-ended ruptures of tubes?
10 A As I recall, they were mostly single-ended.
11 Q I'm getting -- I am obviously not stating my question well 2 enough.
3 Are there any failures described in the NUREG documents
- which you have reviewed in which the tube becomes a canti-is lever with one fixed end vibrating and rubbing against the
" other tubes?
17 A It isn't described as that but, if it were free at one end e and loose at the cther, it sort of would be that way. A
cantilever is something that's fixed at one end and free the 20 rest of the way even though --
a Q Is it your recollection of these NUREG documents that there 22 were tube failures in Babcock and Wilcox steam generators as which involve more than just cracking of the tubes and went a* to this kind of baseball bat phenomonen?
l A Well, it's not probably as strong as a baseball bat but I aso oavioso= ewito**G GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC, suits aoa sie wasmi=Gio* sooo statt a west sie west count statti Sat C.TT MeCMiGAN aetoe tasimaw MiceeGag asso3 8 LsNT uiCMiGa% asto3 l
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i think there were a few instances, as I remember it.
a Q And your description here is based on your interpretation 1
- of the NUREG documents, is that correct?
4 A Yes. O s Q Rather than personal experience?
e A Yes. My experience has been with -- more with horizontal 7 tubes rather than with vertical tubes except reflection a condensors, sometimes they are vertical, s Q Do you know of any specific foreign bodies that would be io present in the Midland steam generators?
Si A Not if they've been cleaned out properly. There can always in be -- little pieces get caught and there are pieces of is welding rod and that sort of thing that, if they were not is taken out, could be there but I would presume they had been is careful about that, is Q In Paragraph 10 you stated it is obvious that the use of 17 pond Water for emergency Cooling will Contaminate both the is reactor system and the pond.
is What do you mean by the reactor system?
zo A Well, if you're going to bring pond -- suck pond water .
i at through, you can bring whatever materials there are in the as pond, as Q Are you referring to the secondary system, sir?
24 A No, I understood that there was -- there were emergency pumps
?
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,1 have misinterpreted this, a Q Okay. If the pond water goes through the secondary system, a not the primary system?
4 A Then it wouldn't get into the primary s') stem but, in the same s way, if the pond water went the same way in the secondary a system, it would bring whatever is free in it.
7 Q Are you also assuring that after the pond water goes through a the secondary system, that it is discharged back into the 3 pond?
to A I would think so.
11 Q If it is in fact converted to steam and discharged into the 12 atmosphere, would that change your testimony? ,
is A Well, if it's converted to steam, it will have some.
14 Whatever, sludge or ions or whatnot were in the water, that is would be partly in the steam and partly drap out, partly in is the atmosphere and partly drop out.
17 Q If the Water only goes through the secondary system and if 18 there is no steam generator to leak, will there be any radio-is active contamination of the pond water into the atmosphere?
ao A Only through the second, not unless there was a steam 21 generator leak, na Q Do you have any basis to believe that the -- strike that.
as Do you have any reason to believe that pond water can't 28 be used on a sheet term basis to shut down the plant as 25 described both in Mr. Hillman's testimony and also Mr.
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s I am a little confused about your statement that clearly the Q
- bestwaytocoolareactorwouldbetohowerthecontrolrods ,
' to keep the liquid level above the rods and to remove vapor-8 ized steam. Steam removal would provide two and a half times
, 7 the heat removal per pound of water that liquid Cooling a
would as a minimum.
- Do you have any evidence as to the practicability of
" operating a pressurized water reactor in such a mode?
" A You wouldn't nomally operate it that way but, if you had to 2 get a lot of heat out in a hurry, taking it off a -- steam 13 for a pound of water would remove a lot more heat than if you just pass water through.
Q Do you know whether it's practical to establish circulation
within the primary system with a steam and water mixture of
" the kind you are describing?
A Well, I think you would be doing both really, but if you wero in a really emergency cooling system, you put as much water in as you can. You probably have the vent open both to lowe r mi the pressure and to let off steam, but you wouldn't rely I
as on cooling by putting it into the -- just by putting it into as the steam generator.
- All right.
Q as There's about 1,200 BTU's or so per pound that pass -- that A
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,1 heat steam in these conditions whereas to just put liquid
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a water through, you only at the most could remove probably a less than 100 BTU's. l 4 Q Would you please look at the sentence 16 which you state that i e a serious source of atmospheric contamination is the use of s pop valves for relief. Such valves are subject to wire-a 7 drawing and generally do hot receipt properly. They are a unsatisfactory for use where toxic vapors and gases are !
e involved.
10 Q Now, regarding that portion -- I'll ask you about frangible 11 safeties later on.
12 A Okay.
is Q When you are referring to atmospheric contamination, are you 14 .-
is A That would be a pop valve on the primary system.
is Q Do those valves open to the atmosphere?
17 A They probably go through some kind of tank before they get is to the atmosphere. That kind of tank will have a pop valve is on it then.
20 Q Do you know whether any of the valves on the primary system 21 are outside the containment structure?
sa A Well, regardless of where the valve was, it would have a pipe 28 leading from it probably to someplace.
24 Is it your impression that, therefore, the gases that go Q
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- directly or indirectly to the atmospheit?
s A Well, it's common to vent into sort of a surge tank perhaps a with a water spray or something in it and hope that it will 7 Contain most of it so that it won't pop anymore, a If the pop valves, as you call them, were all vented inside Q
e the containment structure which was isolated, there would be 10 no atmospheric contamination, would there?
1 A If it would hold it, that's right.
12 Q Now, what are you talking about when you say pop valve?
8 I'm just not sure of the term.
- A A relief valve that operates against a spring.
15 Q And what does wire-drawing mean?
1s A Well, for an example of wire-drawing, supposing you have a
" gate valve, it has a gate that goes down into a V-shaped a place. If you open that up just a little bit, a little bit
'8 of steam or water or whatever will go through there and it zo will gradually cut a little notch.
at The same thing can happen in one of these pop valves at 22 high volicities and even though most of the thing is all as right still, you never quite see it because of this little a' place like a wire had been shoved through.
Q Now, going to your suggestion about parallel frangible oesean nepomr uo seavice. inc .v
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s safeties with their stems locked tegothsr so thet if cne a accessible, the other is not, it would be much safer, could a you please describe again what you niean?
4 A I'll make you a little sketch or sometKing.
e Q This is going to end up as Savage Deposition Exhibit No. 2 s A Okay. See, you have a valve here, for instance, something 7 like that. You wouldn't necessarily have valves with rotary e stress. You could have some kind of slide device that moves e back and forth.
to See, in that particular picture, one valve is closed 11 and the other one is open. So if the safety is to blow, those sa ones where it's open will relieve the pressure. Then when is you want to replace one, then you'd close it, move the valve I
14 the opposite way and it would do it.
15 Q I'm trying to figure out how this works and you'll have to is forgive me because I'm a lawyer and not an engineer.
17 A Okay. We've got a valve here that's open so the pressure is is up against this one. If that one should blow, it will l 1s come up here. You close the valve there. There would still 20 be this one to hold it. If they both blow, then you haven't at got any more safeties on this side and it would be venting.
22 Q Yes.
l s A However, then you would move this valve over so that it was l 24 here and then it would be up against these other ones again.
' 25 I see. Okay.
Q l
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1 A It's something like -- on a large scale you might get some-2 thing like a slide valve on a cylinder locomotive perhaps, a Q So this --
4 A But you can change one that's been bloOh by going over to a the other side.
e Q So this sketch essentially shows a parallel system?
7 A Yes, s Q Of pressure relief devices?
e A Yes.
10 Q First a valve an'd then two frangible safeties in series?
11 A Yes. You'd have two valves so fixed together that if one 12 is -- they can't both be closed at one time. Only one can is be closed and the other open or they will both be partly 1
14 open. That's a cormon device really.
is Q If the valves at the bottom of the page are pop valves, are is they not subject to wire-drawing?
17 A No, they could be -- they could be pop valves or they could is be any other kind of valve that could open or shut readily.
l 1s It could be a gate valve.
20 Q What happens in this system if the pressure at the bottom of 21 the page and let's say in the reactor vessel or in the pri-22 mary system is extremely high?
as A Well, you better have made them big enough to take care of 24 whatever it is.
2s Such that it ruptures -- well, it's an accident scenario, Q
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2 A Yes, then you could bleed some out to the outside if you want .
a Q Okay. Now, until you take operator action to shut the botton 4 valve on the right side, the steam or (gases are going to a come out and be bled out on the right?
e A Bled out on the right or, if it's enough pressure, it will 7 go up through the next one. That might just have an instru-e ment on it there.
e Q Well, assume that now the pressure has dropped and you do io not want any more vapor or gases escaping from the reactor 11 vessel system.
12 A Yes.
is Q So then you would move the valve shut at the bottom?
4 14 A Yes.
is Q And open up the other parallel path?
is A Yes, and then you could change the ones back here. ]
l 17 Q Well -- and then on the left-hand side the pressure rises is again and you pop through your frangible safety on the left-is hand side.
20 Then are you not left with at least one venting route?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Which cannot be closed?
28 A Well, it's only a moment to change the safety, 24 Is that true?
Q
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as A They're mounted in a frame that sits between two flanges.
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a the.other one in, for example, s Q Do you know whether the containment is excessible during 4 reactor accidents where very high tempeTatures and perhaps e even radiation conditions exist? s e A Well, you'd have to provide -- if you have accessibility to 7 it in a Case like this, o Q So that's the nub of the thing?
e A Yes, that's just another way of doing it other than pop to valves.
11 Q Okay. But the advantage of a pop valve would be that to the 12 extent it would work, it would recede itself after time?
13 A Yes, but it generally would recede at somewhat different i
14 pressures then what they have before because the heat works is on the spring, is Q Are you familiar with the American Society of Mechanical 17 Engineers Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code?
is A I've looked at it, is Q Are you familiar with the rules in that code governing the 20 use of isolation valves in series with pressure relieving 21 devices?
22 A You're not supposed to have them.
as Q Why not?
24 A Well, in a case like this you aren't valved off.
8 as I see. Is the basis of the rule that, if you had it in Q
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1 series -- I'm sorry, a A You have it at parallel here, a Q So you believe that the intent of the A.S.M.E. Boiler and 4 Pressure Code Rule prohibiting the use %f isolation valves e in series with pressure relieving devices is not violated by a this parallel frangible valve scheme?
7 A The rules are different for fired and unfired pressure ves-e sels and I presume there's still a different rule for nuclear e reactors.
10 And you're not familiar with that specific rule?
Q 11 A I'm not familiar with that specific rule, no, but there was 12 a place where there was a diagram of a vent valve in one is of these that had a plug valve or something ahead of it whict 14 they could shut off if they didn't have the vent valve work-15 ing which I -- and then if that was closed, then the pop 1e valve would have to go off and that was my comment a little 17 farther on down here about an air-operated venting valve.
1e MR. STEPTOE: Can we have this sketch marked as 18 Savage Deposition Exhibit 27 so (Whereupon Savage Deposition Exhibit No. 2 was 21 marked for identification by..the Court Reporter.)
as Q I guess I didn't understand why the use of air-venting as valves in the primary system is inappropriate.
2* Could you explain it again for me, sir?
as A Well, it's a matter of what happens if the air fails for one i
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I s thing and it was in tha illustration of ena of thase books ,
2 where it had some kind of a blocking valve before it which a they would shut off if chey didn't like the way the venting 4 valve was acting but if -- an air valv'e can work very a suddenly and cause transients for one thing and then if it's e -- some valves, so-called direct acting, they close if the 7 air fails. Other valves that are reverse acting would open e if the air fails. So either way, if the air fails, you coulc.
s be in trouble.
1o Q Do you know which is in use at the Midland Plant?
11 A It depends on the kind of valve it is.
12 Q Do you know what kind of valve is in use?
is A No, I don't.
l 14 Q Do you know whether they use air or other compressed gases is and does that make a difference?
is A Well, these valves, if they fail, they usually have a rubber 17 diaphram in them and, if they fail, it's by rupture of the is rubber diaphram.
is Q So it doesn't make a difference what the compressed gas is?
2o A Air can also give you trouble if it has any water in it, too.
t 21 Q Do you know whether the piping in the Midland Plant is desigt1 -
22 ed to withstand transients that might be caused by associated l 2 valves?
l 24 A I doubt that you have valves that work so fast that they would 2s give very serious transients.
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,1 Q Is that a principle of good design, to make sure your valves a don't close too fast?
a A If they close too fast like a-whole thing, you have to have 4 some kind of an air space or something % hat is quite large e in proportion to the amount of liquid that's involved. The a classic study on such transients was in Russia a long time 7 ago and, for. instance, they had a three inch line and 2500 e feet long, I think it was, and if the valve closed slowly the e pressure was about 32 pounds. But when they closed fast, it 10 was about 500 pounds because of the movement of all this 11 changing from velocity to pressure. But where you just run 12 water into a chamber that has steam in it, you aren't likely 13 to get very much of a transient from that. But you get more t
14 -- if you're putting bubbles, putting steam into cold water, is for example, that's a worse transient than just running water is into steam.
17 ls it correct -- strike that.
Q s Do you know what has been done at the Midland Plant to 18 deal with this problem?
l 2o A The problem of transients?
21 Q Yes.
1 22 A No, I don't.
as Q The last sentence, sir, you refer to the discussions of l 24 steam tube integrity and the studies at Brookhaven and 25 Franklin Institute are excellent. Are you referring to the 33o Daviosow susci=G GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE. INC. swift 702 o ne was==sto* sooo statt a west sii *t st cowat stas ti saw city uicmGam setoe masinan wic=.c a% assos su=v uic=saw asso)
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i 2 A Both of these are very good reports. The thing is they are a more mechanical than chemical.
4 Q Are you referring to NUREG-09167 s A Yes, s Q I see.
7 A I think so, yes.
o Q Yes, these are Appendix A and Appendix B to the Ginna NUREG-i s 0916, is that right?
10 A I think that was one of them, yes.
11 MR. STEPTOE: That concludes the questions I want 12 to ask, Mr. Savaga. With Mr. Wilcove's indulgence, I might is just say that after this is over, he may want to ask you a i,
14 few more questions, but after this is over the transcript is will be prepared and we'll make you a copy or give it to is Ms. Sinclair, one of the two.
17 You have the right to review that and correct anything 18 that you want to do. There will be a form on the back that is allows you to sign it with any corrections that you would 20 like to make. We don't care what notary you use. You can 21 sign in front of any notary. Also, I believe that under the 22 NRC Rules, you're entitled to the witness fees that are as standard under the Federal Court System. They're not very 24 much but we will calculate them and provide you with a check,
' as THE WITNESS: I don't need that. This was just to a3o naviosoas evito*G GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE. INC, su TE aos Die W ASMiNGTON 3000 statt, a wf ST et t *EST Cover simEET saw CITv. MICMiG4N 40706 S AGthaw usCueG AN 88603 FLi'8T M'CuiGaN deso)
i an:wsr agme questions criginally. I'm not a censultant or 2 anything like that, a MR. STEPTOE: Well, that concludes everything I 4 vant to say. Mike, do you have anythittg?
s EXAMINATION e BY MR. WILCOVE:
7 Q First off, I realize it's been a long evening for you and I e appreciate the time you have given us and I will try to go e as fast as I can.
io My first question -- and as Mr. Steptoe said when he 11 started, anytime you wish to take a break, by all means say 12 so.
is A Okay, i4 Q And if you don't understand any of my questions, please say is so. I have been criticized by many people for talking too is fast on occasion and for slurring my words. If I start to 17 do that, then please correct me.
j is A Okay.
is Q Mr. Savage, as I know you are aware, there is a contract 20 by which Dow uses steam generated from the Midland Plant, l 21 In your employment with Dow, in any of the work yo 2 22 did, any of the projects that you understood, did they touch as upon any work with that contract at all?
You mean work with the Consumers -- I don't quite understand 24 A 2s you.
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. .i Q Okay. The contract between Consumers Power Company and Dow.
/
g 2 A You mean, did they discuss it?
a Q Well, in any work you did, was any of it connected with the e plans for Dow to take --
s A No.
e Q And your testimony speaks of the demineralizer system used 7 in the Midland Plant.
e A Yes.
o Q For instance, it is first referenced in the second paragraph to of Page 1 of your testimony, i si Is it your understanding that in the demineralizer 12 system, the cation exchanger and the anion exchanger are is separated somehow?
14 A Yes, it goes through one and then the other.
is Q Could you explain for me how they are separated?
is A Well, there would be separate tanks. The powerhouse, when I 17 was working, had only a Cation exchanger. In one of the is departments where I had worked, we had a separate cation is exchanger which were separate tanks. The water went through 20 first the cation exchanger which was regenerated with acid 21 so it was on the hydrogen cycle. Then it went through the 22 anion exchanger where the acids were absorbed as such so the as water came out essentially more or like distilled water and 24 the -- like the generator, the -- the exchanger had to run as out and then, of course, you'd get contamination.
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,1 Q As the water goes through one exchcngsr cnd than tha other, g
a does that leave either an acidic or a caustic residue?
s A When it goes through a cation ion exchanger, if it's on the 4 hydrogen cycle, then hydrogen will be removed from the resin s and calcium or magnesium or whatnot will remain on the resin.
e So what comes through would then be an acid.
7 Q And the resins are regenerated?
l e A Yes, o Q And in the process of regeneration, there is often some 10 waste, am I right?
11 A Yes. The liquid goes through and then you wash it off after 12 you have treated it with acid. In the early days, what they ;
13 did was take the resins out into a tank and stir the tank
- while they did this, but then they got so they could re-15 generate right in the exchanger.
is Q Is the waste neutralized?
17 A I don't remember.
is Q And what then happens to the waste after it's washed and -- ,
is A Well, when you have regenerated the anion, you would regen-2o erste the cation exchanger on the hydrogen cycle with caustic at or hydroxide and it happens that, where this plant was, there 22 was a fair amount of sodium hydroxide being used so that 28 presented no problem and was not neutralized. Then when you 28 regenerate the one that has absorbed the acids, yes, the one 25 that has absorbed the acids -- oh, I misspoke myself.
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,1 When you do the one that's on the hydrogen cycle, the cation exchanger, you remove acid groups and leave on
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a magnesium and so forth. That has to be removed with acid 4 like sulphuric. We used hydrochloric Ircid and that gave s salt essentially. When you regenerate the one that has e absorbed acids, you do that with caustic and that leaves an 7 alkaline which was no problem, as I said, because we happened a to have a lot of caustic around where it was working. But if s you were -- so those were just discharged with all of the 10 rest of the plant water.
11 Is it your understanding that the demineralizers at Consumers Q
12 at Midland will operate in the same way?
13 A Well, they may have different resins. That's the usual way 14 to operate them, yes.
is Q And it's your understanding that the water at Midland would is first pass through a cation exchanger and then an anion 17 exchanger?
is A Yes.
1' And any waste from that, where would that be discharged in Q
20 particular, would it be discharged into the cooling pond?
i
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at A I understood it wou1d be discharged into the cooling pond.
za I believe Mr. Steptoe did question you about the statement Q
sa in your testimony that the chemicals chosen are not well 24 suited to the materials of construction and I believe you as answered you were referring to ammonia.
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,1 A Ananonia, yes, particularly.
2 Q Are there any other type of chemicals you would like to a see added?
- A You mean for --
s Q To reduce --
e A To reduce corrosion?
l l 7 Q Yes, e A One thing that has occasionally been used is a little e silicate that's used in papermills quite often to reduce 10 corrosion. It forms a very thin silicate layer on places 11 that might otherwise cause trouble and, if the ph is kept 12 so it doesn't get too near neurtraler acid like perhaps a l
13 trace of alkali, I really think myself that would be better 18 than ammonia, but that's my personal view.
15 Q I understand. Are these chemicals you're suggesting, silica is or alkali, are they solid or are they volatile?
i 17 A They would be solid so they'd get -- accumulate and eventuall y is you'd have to blowdown a little.
1' Q Would you suggest adding phosphate?
zo A No, that is stated to have caused trouble when they used it 21 in the start up of several plants. Phosphate is a buffer.
22 You have no buffer here but y0u don't really need it and, as as a buffer to prevent corrosion, it's not a very successful 24 one.
l -
25 Q Do you know if the use of phosphate has ever been a problem aso paviosom eviLD'*G GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE. INC. su'ta 202 s i e w a s==o t o* sooo start a west sie west coumv steert saw city u.cmon= estoe sasimaw v.cmoa= essos ev=v wicmsa= essos I
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2 A I don't know. I don't remember which plants it was a problem
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a at but, when you buffer, you've got to have a relatively larg e 4 amount of buffer to do any good and yo6!re really worse off s than if you don't do it.
e Q In your testimony, Page 5, you discuss what you feel to be 7 the problems with using IConel, in particular its reaction a to NH4 Cl to Ca2, f r instance, o A I should say I'm in a way not completely informed on the to source of Iconel. Monel happens -- Monel which is somewhat 11 similar to nickel and copper happens to be an ore that they 12 found up in Canada and they have mined that and refined it is as such to make a metal that they can sell for any purposes 14 and I have never heard whether Iconel is one like that. If is it were, it would have native copper in it.
is Q Is there any type of material you would prefer to be used 17 instead of Iconel, stainless steel, for instance 7 is A Well, the eighteen types, stainless types of steel containing is molybdemun, m-o-1-y-b-d-e-m-u-n, I guess, molybdemun gives 20 a much harder one. None of them are particularly good 21 materials from a screen, when you come right down to it.
as They tend to tear a lot, as Q Are you saying that the type of stainless steel that you just.
24 mentioned, and I won't even begin to try to pronounce it 25 again, would be --
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i A Well, 316 is an example of the type that is the most satis-g a factory for corrosion. There are others related to it.
a Q Would you say that they would be more s.resistant to the a chemicals and compounds listed here than Iconel would be?
s A It's my personal feeling it might be but I can't produce any
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e evidence to that.
7 Q I see, e A Particularly at these high temperatures and things, there o just isn't much data. They may have tested them and found to that Iconel was better, I don't know.
11 Q You do speak here of copper which is a part of Iconel being 12 dissolved by ammonia.
13 How much ammonia would it take to dissolve the copper?
14 A Well, as I said to him, you can have these little cracks is around the edges of crystals, if you happen to have any is crystal structure. It's very fine and it wouldn't take 17 Very much at one of those places to deepen that a little is bit. That's the thing. It isn't a big, mass affair. It's e just a little, tiny thing.
20 If you could turn to Page 3 of your testimony for me, are Q
21 you aware whether there are any traveling screens either at 22 the point where water from the Titabawassee encers the as cooling pond or at the point where the cooling pond water 2*
enters the circulating water?
as A Yes, there are some, but you would be amazed how small a pipe -
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. . l 2 once in one of these filters out of service water. It must a have been six or eight inches long. It must have gone through 4 just a tiny pipe. ~~,
s Q Where didtyou -- on what document or what -- from what source e do you derive your knowledge of the screening system used 7 to control water both going into and coming out of the cool-e ing pond?
s A There was a discussion in one of these that I read, I forgot to whether it was the green one or the yellow one or something, ii that mentioned that there was such a screen.
12 Q Now, for the circulating water system, that's where the is water cones in the pipes, water from the cooling pond comes 14 into cool the condensate. Do you know what material those is pipes are?
is A No.
17 Q Do you know if there'S any Coating on the inside of those is pipes?
is A No.
2o Q Do you know if there's any cathodic protection for part of zi that system?
22 A Well, if there's a link through the pond, there should be.
as Q Or do you know or have you looked at or reviewed ary dis-24 cussion of any procedures for monitoring the condensate to 2s determine if there's any leakage into it?
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, .i A There was a place before the polishing exchangers where they 2 were going to monitor it and also take a daily grab samples, a Q Is that discussed in Mr. Hillman's and Mr. McCrackin's testi-4 mony?
s A Yes, but what I had said to the other gentleman was, that a doesn't necessarily sample what's concentrating in the bottom 7 Of the generator because there could be more and you'd have e to have a way of sampling that there, too.
s Q On Page 3 of your testimony again, Paragraph No. 6, the one io about water quality, you mention that the Titabawassee River it will contain 30 parts per million of NaC1.
12 A That depends on the time of year. When there's a lot of is water run off in the spring, it might be much lower than 18 that, but there is this little stream up by Sanford that has is as much as 90 parts of salt and it's called the Salt River, is Q What is your basis for saying 30 parts per million?
17 A Well, originally the City of Midland took its water from the is Titabawassee River before the Huron water system was put is in. I dimly remember an analysis that was done at that timei 20 Q So as I understand, --
21 A But that's just a rough figure. It could be more or less, 22 probably mostly less. It may even be a lot less.
2a Q So as I understand it then, the basis for this number is your 24 recollection of some studies that were done sometime ago?
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,1 water because they had to soften and chlorinate it before it 2 went into the city. It was lousy water,
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s Q When you say it was lousy water, what do you mean?
4 A O It tasted terrible.
s Q Do you feel that the water in the Titabawassee or even in a this part of the country is any more corrosive than might 7 he water from rivers or lakes in other parts of the Country?
e A No, it's pretty good water here in the Titabawassee.
e Q Would you say on the average that this water is less to corrosive?
11 A I couldn't say less because a lot depends on oxygen and 12 things like that and whether there's sewage and so forth, j is but certainly less than in some hard water areas, in New 14 Jersey or --
1 is Q I realize that this next question is a little bit outside is the scope of your work ac Dow, but do you feel that there is 17 more -- that the atmosphere in this area is more corrosive 1
l is than in other parts of the country?
1 1s A No, the atmosphere here is very good. If you want to see a l 20 corrosive atmosphere, go down to Tanawanda, for instance.
21 Q Tanawanda, New York?
a2 A And wctch that smoke go out for miles across the country, as nitrous oxide. Dow doesn't have any nitrous oxide.
24 '
Q Do you mean Tanwanda, New York?
l as A Yes.
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Q I'n from Buffalo ao --
'2 A You should know then, s Q Which, for the record, is about one mile from Tanawanda.
4 A Once in awhile there is a little chlorine leak but that si a disperses in a prevailing wind. It's really pretty good 9 air here. ...; i g, e- e 7 Q Are you familiar with the wavy dewatering system in operation a at Midland?
e A I guess I don't know what you mean by the dewatering system.
10 Q It's been the subject of all too many days of hearings and, it as of ten to ten tonight, I don't think it's worth des-12 cribing at any great depth but assuming -- let me ask you is another question.
14 Assuming radioactivity were to enter the water, the is cooling pond, do you feel that radioactivity would increase 18 the possibility of Corrosion of the steam generator 27
- 1) A Well, it's going to be either light in gases or very heavy -
is things probably and I don't really believe it would increase is it, no. Very heavy things might easily settle out. Of 20 course, I don't know really whether there's any amount of 21 deuterium in the water. I would doubt that there was very 22 much, but that would be just like any other water and 22 shouldn't be corrosive.
24 Q I think I'm just about finished. Let me just check my notes as here.
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,i Do you know of any incidents at a nuclear power plant 2 where there has been a problem with the break up of resins?
(
- A Tnat's probably -- that's not the kind you would hear about 4 in general, but I have known Dow to hate -- take back resins a that are broken up, s Q But I'm speaking of something that might have happened at a 7 nuclear power plant.
e As I understand it, you don't have any knowledge of that :
o ever happening?
to A No, I don't. The resins -- occasionally there will be a is resin that will tend to crack very easily like popcorn that 12 was cruched or something. Also, there are finds over a is period of time and those could make their way through the is system.
is Q Okay. I believe Mr. Steptoe asked you earlier if you had is read the staff response to your comments.
17 A Yes.
is Q And you answered yes.
is A Yes.
2o Q Were you satisfied with that response?
21 A Well --
l 22 Q If you'd like to take a look at it --
as A No, I recall it. The response on the hydrazine was per-24 fectly reasonable. When I said in small amounts, actually I as was thinking more of its storage than of its actual use, but t
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-101-1 it would act something like anunonia in there.
a The one on the fogging, I was not particularly satisfied
(
a with. I calculated that as well as I could using charts and 4 so forth but the moisture content of aft and the temperature s of the water at various times of the year and they seem to e disagree with me on that, so time will tell who's right.
7 In fact, it always, too, Q
e A But as it happened, when I worked in the papermill, sodium 8 sulfide and such things got distributed out for about 10 10 miles around the plant and we had to go out and take samples 11 and bring them back and analyze them, so I've had some 12 experience there. Also, we've had problems of this type in 13 graduate school but --
14 Q Okay. Just a couple more questions.
5 On the first page of your testimony, the fifth para-a graph down from the top, you mentioned that stress during 7 construction and so forth will contribute to steam generator e tube failure at a driving force of 1,00 psig.
18 A Yes, that's -- if there were pressure forcing water through zo the oriface, there would be a differential pressure of 1,000 81 psig whereas in the case of the condensor, the pressure is 22 only 50 or 60 pounds per square inch. So it would have to as be a much bigger orifice to let the same amount of water a* through.
as This, I think, will be my last question, Q
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-102- {
i On Pago 6 of ysur tsstimony, you ctets that 3,400 of sulphuric acid will be used to regenerate the cation a exchangers and will enter the pond, partly neurtralized.
4 Am I correct that this is your -- that this is your a understanding of what will happen at Midland based on what s you know from --
7 A The figures are out of one of these papers. In general, you e use more acid than is required for exact neutralization, so e there would be some that was not neutralized.
to Q Did the figures come from this document here, the final 11 environmental statement?
12 A It could have been from that or it could have been from is Hillman, either one, but I assume that it was concentrated s, 14 sulphuric acid.
is Q All right, is A Because that can be handled in ordinary metal containers 17 where weaker ones can't.
is MR. WILCOVE: I don't believe I have anymore ques-is tions. I very much appreciate you're taking the time tonight zo to answer our questions. It's been most responsive and most 21 helpful.
22 REEXAMINATION as BY MR. STEPTOE:
24 Q Can I ask just one more?
2s Mr. Wilcove was asking you questions when he first ano Daviosom su'LO'NG GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. SusTE 202 eis wasaimGTom sooOsTaTe e wast si t west Covat s'as tT Sav CITV. WeCueGah atfos gag,%aw WiCwiGaN ass 03 8kaNT M*Cn+GaN 48503
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-103-i b:gan cbout ths catica exchangars cud th2 cnion cxchcngers.
a Were you responding with respect to the system at Dow?
\
s A Well, Dow -- as I said, in the powerhouse, Dow had just a l 4 cation exchanger in my time and another! plant in which I s worked or did development work and so forth, we had both the e cation and the anion exchangers in order to get the equivalent 7 of distilled water. You get soft water with just a cation s exchanger. With both you get like distilled water.
o Also, experimentally, we worked on it in various ways to on smaller scales.
/
11 Q But you weren't answering specifically with regard to the 12 system at the nuclear plant?
13 A No, just in general.
14 MR. STEPTOE: That's all, is MR. WILCOVE: I believe, and by all means correct is me if I misunderstood you, but I believe you also told me 17 that it was your understanding that the demineralizer at is Midland would operate in the same way?
is A Yes.
20 MR. WILCOVE: Okay.
21 MR. STEPTOE: Okay. Thank you. That just clari--
22 fied for me what you were talking about.
as MR. WILCOVE: Also, the staff will stipulate that 24 you may sign the transcript of your deposition before any as notary. That's all, a no p.vioso= .wito'*G GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. Sur,E aoa
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-104-
,1 (Deposition concluded.)
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-105-1 STATE OF MICHIGAN)
) SS i
a COUNTY OF BAY )
3 4 I, Albert Savage, being firs 5 duly sworn, depose s and say: That I have read the transcript of the deposition given a by me on the 28th day of March, 1983, at or about 6:20 o' clock 7 P.M., at the Holiday Inn, in the City of Midland, Michigan; that a the same is correct and is an exact transcript of my testimony e in the above-captioned case subjectto the corrections hereinafter to listed: And further, deponent sayest not.
11 12 13 14 15 14 17 _ _
Witness's name.
1e 19 Subscribed and sworn to before me so this day of ,19 .
I 21 22 l
as Notary Public 24 My Consnission Expires:
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-106-
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3 4 I, Deborah A. Parent, Notary %blic in and for Bay a County, State of Michigan, acting in and for Midland County, a State of Michigan, do hereby certify that I stenographically re-7 Corded the examination of ALBERT SAVAGE, the deponent in the fore-a going deposition; that prior to the taking of said deposition the e said dcpencut was duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth 10 and nothing but the truth; and that the foregoing deposition is a 11 true and correct transcript of the testimony of said deponent.
12 I further certify that I am not a relative, is employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties; a relative or 14 employee of such attorney or counsel; or am financially interestec:
16 in the transaction.
is I further certify that the record of said deposi-17 tion was submitted to the deponent who examined it and signed it, is 19 b/ 4 / b 43Af8 Deborah A. Parent, RPR, CSR-2364 20 Notary Public, Bay County 21 Expires: 7-6-83 22 23 24 26 b.i.,. 3-29-83 ano D.vioso~ owiLo*~G GENERAL REPORTING SERVICE, INC. svitt 2o2 ei s w.e-i~. tom sooo st.ts a west e t * *t St covat Staf ET
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Statement of A.B. Savage as to Siclair Contention #4.
Conclusions:
Sinclair Contention No. 4 properly addresses the problem of steam tube failure.
Th e corrosion and sludging of condenser tubes by pond water may induce leakage of pond water of variable composition into the secondary co oling system at a driving force of perhaps 50-60 psig.
A more serious cause of steam generator' corrosion, particularly of that unit whi ch supplies steam to The Dow Chemical Company, will be careless operation of the cation and anion exchangers, very common in the chemical industry, combined with the use of ammonia for neutralization and of hydrazine for oxygen scavengingj2and should be g gFfailure to establish adequate ' controls for when- blowdown gg , performed.
Contact of dissimilar metals in and of the tube and shell components of the steam generator will set up corrosive couples. Such couples, chemical components and mechanical stress will aid in the initiation of intergranular corrosion. The chemicals chosen are not well suited to the materials of construction. .
tress during_ construction..and because of expansion and vibration, gr*p. liquid and vapor impingement at high' velocities, transients and pg
_,i high pressure during operatiob will contribute to generator steam tube failure at a driving force of 1,000 psig.
FS uch tube failure will necessitate shutdown of the unit.The shut-
$g8 " down k procedure in the Ginna system (NUREG 0537) was haphazard and erratic. Considering the narrow margin of safety as to potential gg4 [ pressure and temperature, the result coupd have been a disaster.
The incidence of tube failures in steam generators is increasing with time.
Improved materials of construction, improved design and fabrication and compatible water chemistry are needed before permission is given for any more units to start up.
SW/%E E/? EX. tc /
3/2 13
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F.
IM"IM N 2 liw KW k :: MIQ[Uh. k'N .N'k p ~ mb Cp-9W E)hoW 5 %.y %I Reference is made to attachment C in the testimony of C. Hillman.
The sketch is inadequate and confusing.
- 1. Primary coolant.
The primary coolant is shown circulating up through the reactor, down through the tubes of the boiler, and through a centrifugal pump back to the reactor, at a stated pressure of 2,000 psig.-Any gases will tend to accumulate above the upper tube sheet in the generator.
- 2. Steam l' low.
Feed water is introduced into and preheated in the lower annulus of the generator, vaporized in the shell, and the steam leaves the upper annulus of the generator below the top. The steam flows to turbo- .
generators in tandem, where it expanded and ultimately condensed under vacuum conditions, and is recycled by a centrifugal pump through a
" full-flow" demineralizer and back into the annulus of the generator.
- 3. Condensation.
The vapor leaving the turbines is condensed in the shell of the cond-enser under vacuum, as evidenced by the hot-well. Cooling water (service water) from the pond passes through the tubes of the apparently horiz-ontal condenser, and is returned to the pond.
- 4. Steam sold to The Dow Chemical Company.
In NUREG 0537, steam production of from 1.4x10 6 to 4.05x10 6 ounds of steam per hour is stated, or from 46.5 gal./sec to 134 gal. sec., or perhaps an averagevor 109 gal./sec.. of feed water. It is stated that reactor #2 will produce 825 MV, reactor #1 504 MV of power, and thus the difference,148 MV of power equivalent will go to steam:
3.6x100'lb./hr. at 175 psig., plus 0.4x10 lb./hr. at 600 psig.
The point where the steam is withdrawn is not stated.
One may suppose that the steam is withdrawn interstage between two turbogenerator stages:
. (a) Stage 1. Expansion of steam at 1,000 psig (approximately 575 F) to l 600 psig.(approximately 485 F through a turbines and t
(b) Withdrawal of 600 psig, steam for Dow at this point'. o (c) Stage 2. Expansion of sgeam at 600 psig.(approximately 485 F) to 17 psig.(approximately 375 F) through a turbines (d Withdrawal of 175 psig. steam for Dow at this point.
I (e) Stage 3. Expansion of steam at 175 psig.(approximately 375oF) through a turbine to 20 inches of mercury vacuum ,1900 F. Evya.1" $o%
(f) Condensation of the remaining steam at this pressure.
(g) The vacuum-could be maintained by,an Ingersoll-Rand type steam jet powered vacuum unit, discharging through the hot well, and removing gir
( from the system.
- 5. Makeup.
Perhaps 80'per cent of the steam sold to Dow would be returned as cond-ensate and reused. The balance would be made up from fresh water, amounting to a maximum of 810,000 pounds per hour, or 97 gal./sec.
This amount of water would be passed through ion exchange purification units. It would also be used for makeup to offset any leakage from the primary or the secondary cooling system.
. \. [
'* 6.Wabrqality.@ bN h hI l (a) Pond, or service water.
The water pumped from the pond will contain algae, salts, rust and o'ther contaminants from The Dow Chemical. Company's upstream operation , sedim- .
ent, small fish and other materials. Hopefully it will have been passed j through a set of bars and through a magnetic separator. The listed materials may be expected to collect behind the tube sheet on the inlet side of the condenser and to contribute to its cor.rosion.As the pond water will come from the Tittibawassee Reiver, it will contain perhaps 30 ppm. of NaC1. One of the upstream tributaries, the Salt River can contain as much as 90 ppm. of salt.0therwise,the river comes from a sandy, low mineral area. It may contain organic materials from the forest floor, salt from highways, agricultural contaminants,etc. The volume of the pond is not stated, so concentrations are uncertain. Doubtless they vary widely. Concentrations will depend upon the volume, upon the tel-ative locations of inlet and withdrawal sites, and upon the amount of blowdown discharged. The pond will contain acid and alkali from ion exchange u nit regeneration and all of the ions that had been removed by the exchangers. The pH will vary.
It was estimated some years ago that the equivalent of the entire river flow passes through the plant of The Dow Chemical Company several times down the river. In any case the pond water will be before corrosive and wil tend to carry sludge.
continuing /
(b) Water. supply for ion exchange.
It i's intended initially to use Midland city water (Huron water would serve as well) as makeup, and after the first year to use ion exchange water from The Dow Chemical Company. The Saginaw-Midland Water Authority takes water from a crib several miles out in Lake Huron at Whitestone
$p # Pointcurrentand that pumps it about is low 140 miles.
in impurities The crib because intercepts it comes fromaaLake Superior granite bed.
p44 Q he Dow Chemical Company uses raw Huron water in several operations.]
According to the Midland water plant laboratory, city water and Huron
\
water have much the same typical composition, differing chiefly in pH Huron City 1 \1 Ions
/[ OM 1 M
Cu Nah Ca 26 2 ppm. 4 30 ppm.
RJL b Mg++ 8 8 N Cl 12 15
@O4 SO4 g) 30 30 20 he.water J pHis limed to reduce 79 9 0-9 4 The Huron hardness, treated with chlorine for purification, and fluo.ridated.
(c) Cation exchange water.
The Dow on operating Chemical Company passes Huron water g}hrough a cation exch them with Na ,the Na+ ions. The exhausted exchanger is regenerated with Nacl solution and washed. From a cation exchanger on the Na* cycle fed with Huron water one might expect:
Na* 28 ppm.
Cl- 14 S0g -- 25 pH 8.6-9 1 (d) Hydrogen ion cycle.
l;} In order to be able to obtain the equivalent of distilled water, the l
first step cation exchanger must be operated on the H+ cycle, that is, l
it must be regenerated with strong acid, for example with H2504, rather i n_
I- ,
., . 4 IXlON N: Nb than with onlt, and washed. One might expact from Huron wator:
hcl 14 5 ppm. bd Nh ~C'3 'k H2SO 4 25 6 i%
pH 6, approximately When a cation exchanger of either type is exhausted, Na , Ca ,ec.
d k l[
ions will pass through, and it must be regenerated. It is the commonest thing in the world for operators to permit this to-occur.
The output of acids from the operating exchanger depends upon the anions present: hcl, H 2SO and H200 for example.Dif erent res ins a use for weak and for stron acids. CO A he'eQ o0T 4 WMA.
(e) Anion exchange water.
An anion exchanger does not akchange ions, but, instead, absorbs acids (or if intended for bases, it absorbs bases) as such. The product is.
essentially pure. water. When the exchanger is exhausted, acids pass through. This results in a drop in pH and an immediate increase in
~
. . specific conductance. However,it is common for operators to not notice this. Some specific gonductances of ions at 2500. include:
K 349.8 C1- 76.3 i
h .
Na iCa .
50.1 59 5 OH-
'iSof-198.0 79.8 The specific conductance due to hcl is thus, for example, about 3 4 times that due to Nacl.
The anion exchanger is regenerated with NaOH or with Na2003.
(f) Other considerations.
If city water is used, it will contain chlorine, which is not removed by l !
an exchanger. The fate of F- ions is uncertain.
Water, consisting of returned condensate and fresh water makeup, will be
- demineralized and stored. It will be intr 6duced into the secondary cycle, I
which also contains so-called " full-flow polishing" demineralizers. These, i too, can exhaust and pass cations and acids. Ions passed will accumulate
' in the steam generator and can only be removed by blowdown. Meanwhile they will corrode the equipment.
Ion exchange resins can be subject to cracking of the beads and to ergosion. Eventually resin will enter the steam generator, whether due to ers osion or to excessive velocity of the feed water. No mention is made of a polishing filter to retain resin. Cation resins contain acidic groups. Anion resins contain basic groups. If cation resin enters the anioi}$ changer, the result is uncertain. Resins must be added i or replaced after long usage.
(g)Other chemistry.
It is stated that ammonia will be used for pH control and hydrazine for l scavenging oxygen. NUREG 0571 says that hydrogen will be used.
Ammonium chloride is very corrosive.It hydrolyzes to an acid pH. Hydrazine hydrochloride or sulfate will be corrosive. Silicate, if present, might reduc.e corrosion.
- 7. The steam generator.
The Babcock and Wilcox once-through steam generator has primary coolant on the tube side and secondary coolant on the shell side. The secondary coolant is preheated in the annulus and converted to steam in the shell.
NUREG 0571 states t t the tubes are of Inconel, 0.625 inch 0.D., 0.035 inch wallthickness. If one asqumes a factor of safety of 6, the working pressure of the tubes is abour/,500 psig]
Sytch r
e ,
5 Inconel, a product of International Nickel Company, contains: - -
Nickel 79 5%
Chromium 13 0 Iron 65 Carbon 0.08 Copper 0.20 -
Manganese 0.25 unknown 0.47 Of these components, copper is Wyylesireables iron less so. I am not certain whether Inconel is a developed alloy, or whether, like Monel, it is a composition found in natural ore. Inconel resembles stainless-steel 316 in many properties.
Inconel has only partial resistance to NH 3C1, to Ca(OC1)2, to C12 , to hcl, to H PO and to Ca(OH)2, as well'as poor resistance according 3 to Perry's Chemical Engineer's Handbook.
to FeCl),
Tube failures have occured when phosphates were used initially in the g'(ystem.a) Pressure. The pump pressure to the reactor is stated to be 2,000 PSIG.,
in order to prevent vaporization in the reactor. The working pressure of the generator tubes is stated above to be about 1,500 psig. Steam is to
)g. produced at 1,000 psig. , or about 555 F. The pressure temperature yg F relationship for water includes:
Temp.., 0F Pressure. psia.
( 55+
600 1015 1543 640 2345 700 3093 705.4(c) 3206.2(c)
Should the primary water temperature rise from near $550F. to 6400F., it is questionable whether pump pressure could be maintained. Should it rise to 705 4 F., the critical point, the reactor would run away.
Tube failure in the steam generator could occur for chemical or for mechanical reasons. The driving forpe for leakage to the secondary side Lwould be 1,000 psig.
(b) The corrosion resistance of metals such as nickel and stainless steel depends upon the formation of a passive film of oxide or the like upon the surface. This is initially established by oxygen and promoted by alkaline conditions. In an oxygen-free atmosphere, if it is lost, it cannot be reestablished. Chloride and sulfate ions interfere with passivity.
(c) When dissimilar metals are in contact with an electrolyte, a galv-anic couple is formed and a potential set up. The metal at the higher potential wi 11 be the anode and will tend to go into solution. Couples can occur between dissimilar metals, between an alloy and undispersed components of it, between dissimilarly heat-treated metals and between metals that have experienced dissimilar stress. Inconel contains copper, y for example. Copper not only sets up a couple, but it is' disselved as 9 a complex by ammonia.p welding rod of the wrong composition, such as
-a Monel one, might have been used. f the metal has a crystalline or a granular structure, corrosion can egin at the interfaces between crystals. A few single electrode potentials include: Oj k h 0%
Fe/FeSO -0.44 Ni/NiSO -0.23 Cu/CuSO 4 t0 34 c n-
r ,
6 l'd g "'the initial feed water,(d) The water in the primary cycle will contain impurities that occur or in water intr 6duced to replace leakage *and m h N blowdown. Besides the initial components of the feed water, it can contain metallic components of thme reactor, the generator, the piping and the pump. I have not. seen a stuffing box nor mechanical seal on a pump that will not leak sooner or later. Gases and vapor will collect (above the tube sheet in the generator.
(e) Behandary cycle.
As one unit i,s to produce steam for sale, the secondary cycle of that b [ u unit.
nit will Therebe will morebe subject toofcorrosion a buil' dup ions from than willwater the feed. that ofandthe other from h ion exchange operations, and from chemical treatment: acids, chlorine,i
~ esti ns, anions, air and contaminants,from the materials of construct-N iori hese will be removed by blowdown. The shell side of the steam generator is stated to contain iron bOffles as spacers and supports.
h> These and the shell.are subject to corrosion and to electrolysis.
Thare is no mention of attacted_anod % Sludge will collect on baffles, supports and the M weriu~be sheet.As steam removed, these will
'5 pM n entrategand b' lowdown will be necessary It is essential that all *
'9 construction debris shall have been removed The driving force for leakage will be 1,000 psig. A critical point of corrosion will be at the I liquid-vapor interface, and in the area above this where entrainment occurs.The vapor velocity will be much greater than the liquid velocity.
0.. The condenser.
Nothing is said of the construction of the condenser, but for operation at perhaps 20 inches of mercury vacuum, 190 F and with nominally salt-free water on the tube side, it may'be assumed to be of conventional iron construction. Corrosion products will develop in the shell, and remain there, or pass into the hot-well.
1 The tube sheets and tubes will be corroded and sludged up by components I in the co611ng pond. In case of a leak, these will be sucked into the l
shell and pass into the hot-well, from where they will enter the second-ary water system.The driving force for leakage will be about 60 psig.
Fouling of this condenser will be extensive, but, aside from leaks, the chief danger to the secondary water supply lies in the uncertainties of ion exchange operation and chemicgl control, and improper materials of construction. U Admittedly, 3400 tons per year of sulfuric acid, presumably 66 Be.,
l or 775 pounds per hour will be us,ed to regenerate the cation exchangers
! and will enter the pond, partly neutralizedb a
S . Mechanical.
p The Babcock and Wilcox steam generator differs from others in having two rigid tube sheets, rather than hairpin tubes fixed to a single
/, d ,f sheet.It should be relatively free from vibrational stress and accomp-h/. anying wear, but suffers from lack of provision for thermal expansion.
A floating tube sheet, occasionally used, is not practical. If the tubes are straight and rigid at room tempe.rature, they will expand and be bowed at operating temperature. Conversely, if they are rigid and straight at operating temperature, they will be drawn at normal temperature, perhaps beyond their proportional limit. It is not stated, but the tube sheets are probably drilled. Boring, or broaching (in the sense of burnish-ing) would give smoother contact surfaces. When the tubes are expanded to fit the holes in the tube sheet, the stress exceeds the proportional limit and thereafter they are liable to further expansion under stress.
If the tubes are expanded only on the outer side, crevices will surround the tubes on the shell side and corrosive components can build up .
If the tubes are expanded through to the shell side, it makes~their removal more difficult and strains extend further into the shell. In either case the stress on a siender column under axial lead is added l
,=
(
- 7 fto th'e stress of pressure. Stresses will initiate intergranular corrosion of the tubing.
Should a tube fail, it would be a cantilever with one fixed end. It would vibrate and rub, both against other tubes and against the tube-pr Thesupports,although not as much as in other designs.
g Babcock and Wilcox tube spacers are broached, rather than drilled.
Ygh If by broaching is meant burnishing, they would present fairly smooth contact surfaces.
NUREG 0571 indicates tube failure due to fatigue near the top of the generator, that is, near the liquid-vapor interface or in the vapor space. Stress is caused by vibration of the tubes in the vapor space plus column action and corrosion at the interface.
Foreign material can collect at the tube sheets and supports, abd could wear the tubes. Construction residues must be. completely removed.
The tubes can be dented by foreign bodies, or thinned by. stress and corrosion. If faulty tubes are plugged, the resulting flow currents may
\ errode nearby tubes.
\o" So-called " sleeving", that is,the placement of a piece of smaller tube inside of a stressed tube at the tube sheet, and expansion to provide tightness, is not a desirable procedure. It further stresses the tube, and increases velocity through the sleeved area, and may cause cross-I currents above the tube sheet.
z- . ..
- 10. Other comments.
In the case of generator tube rupture, primary cooling water will leak into the secondary system at 1,000 psig. driving pressure, resulting in some l'oss of cooling and introducing sone radioactivity. Shutdown for repair will be necessary.
It is obvious that the use of pond water for eme gency cooling will jontaminate both the reactor system and the pond.
, ( Clearly rods _tothe keepbest theway liquidtole_yel cool a reactor above the would betotoremove rods and lower the vaporizedcontrol ,
steam. Steam removal would prov1&E'2h times the heat removal per. pound of water that liquid cooling wadd, as a minimum. NUREG 0916 indicates that the aplomb of the operators in the Ginna plant tube failure event pW" resembled that of a cat on a hot stove, with little attention to yf engineering principles, and continuous indecision.
Steam evolved in an emerfency could be directly condensed with' water sprays in a suitable vessel and the inert gases vented.
A serious source of atmospheric contamination is the use of pop valves for relief. Such valves are subject to wire-drawing and generally do not reseat properly. They are unsatisfactory for use wher,e toxic vapors and gases are involved. Parallel frangible safeties, with their stems locked together so that if one accessible, the other is not, would be much safer.
The air-operated venting valve in the primary system is inappropriate.
First, it can be valved off by a blocking valve, which would make it ineffective and might cause transients if closed suddenly, and, second, if it is direct acting, air failure would close it, even if needed, and, if reverse acting, air. failure 'would ppen it, causing unwanted venting, (equallybad.Closureofvalvestotheturbinewouldcausetransients.
Finally, the d i scussions of steam tube integrity and'the studies at Brookhaven and the Franklin Institute are excellent.
w_______ ru
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^
... 8 i .
.i My name is A.B. Savage. I am a retired Dow Chemical Company'rese' arch
, engineer. I do not speak for the company, nor have I used its facilities j in this matter.
J' I attended the University of Minnesota and received the degree of 4 .. Bachelor of Chemical Engineering with Distinction in 1935. Courses of
~1 special relevance included resistance of materials, metallography, industrial electrochemistry, electric power and mechanical engineering.
>I was elected to Tau Beta Pi, honorary engineering society,and to f'j a Phi. Lambda Upsilon, honorary chemistry society.
I had a fellowship with and worked in the plant of the Minnesota and 4
}I. Ontario Paper Company, now owned by Boise. Cascade, 1935-1937. I pj received the Degree of M.S. in Ch.E. and was elected to Sigma Xi, honorar a research society. Experience included reactions involving corrosive acids y under pressure, pH control and the observation of evaporator operation and maintenance.
9! I worked as a research chemical engineer under various titles for the p,g Dow Chemical Company for 391 years. I was an active member of the a.l American Institute of Chemical Engineers and the American Chemical i Soci$y . I was elected to the Research Society of America. Experience included operation of reactors at about 500 F, operation of reactors at about 200 psig., operation of ion exchangers, water quality, pH,
? conductometric and potentiometric measurements, removal of salts'from Products and regulating their pH, testing for corrosion, and design and p, '
operation of continuous and batch stills, condensers and heat exchahgers e
and operation of a process involving corrosive acid under pressure. I t also had to do with prevention of possible runaway reactions, and many
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aspects of safety, including frangible safeties, relief valves, etc.
4 I took a course in continuous reactor design from a University of Michiga P'< instructer.
W I hold more than 40 U.S. or foreign patents and have written technical book chapters and encyclopaedia articles.
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.f, CORRECTIONS OF ALBERT B. SAVAGE TO TRANSCRIPT OF DEPOSITION KAD ON MONDAY, MARCH 28, 1983 Page No (s) . Line No(s). Corrections s
7 8 Change " diploma from" to " certificate from Sigma Xi,"
7 13 Change "the Beta Phi" to " Tau Beta Pi" 8 1 Delete "1934 or in" 9 5 Change "polytex" to " polymer or latex" 12 4 Change " craft" to " kraft" 12 5 Change "barbonate" to " bicarbonate" 13 5 Change " sulfuric" to "sulphurous" in both locations 13 6 Change "bi-sulfide" to " bisulfite" 13 8 After the word " eighteen" add "-
eight" 15 24 Change " steel" to "still" in both locations 16 6 After the word "maybe" add "200 to" 17 17 Replace " pump" with " bump" 20 21 Change "aneeling" to " annealing" 25 et seg. 22 et seg. Change "condensor" to " condenser" 26 6 Change "corroided" to " corroded" 30 et seg. 5 et seq. Change "ph" to "pH" 31 18 Change " move" to " remove" 32 et seg. 5 et seg. Change "CO " to "CO 2" 34 3 Change " ammonia" to " ammonium" 37 21 Change " cation" to " anion" 38 6 Change " straight" to " stray" i
F- 1
.o s.
Page No(s) . Line Nc(s). Corrections 40 24 Add the word "are" to the beginning of line 42 13 Change "Incondel" to "Inconel" 43 10 Change "hydrazine" to " hydrogen" 53 8 Change "through" to "to" 55 4 Change " lime" to "line" 58 13 After the phrase "St. Louis is on the" add the phrase " Pine, which flows into the" 61 17 Change " hydrochloride" to "hypochlorite" 61 25 Change " hydrochloride" to "hypochlorite" 62 8 Change " hydrochloride" to "hypochlorite" 62 11 Change "mean" to " amine" 64 10 Change " finds" to " fines" 69 3 Change " hydrochloride" to "hypochlorite" 69 22 After " downward" add the following phrase: , while things like mercury are concave upward, if you have things like this in them (i.e., in a tube)"
70 4 Change "that times" to "at that time" 74 2 Change "an anion" to "a cation" 74 11 Change "a kneeling" to "an annealing" 74 18 Change " intentioned" to "in tension" 74 23 Change " intention" to "in tension" 76 7 Change " reflection" to " reflux" 81 8 Change " stress" to " stems" i
l 84 3 Change "excessible" to " accessible" 84 12 Change " recede" to " reseat" 84 13 Change " recede" to " reseat"
. , s.
Page No(s). Line No(s). Corrections 90 18 After the word " cation" add "and anion" .
91 4 Change " removed" to " released" 92 1 Change "do" to " operate" 92 6 After the word " acids" add ", the anion exchancar,"
93 12 Change "neurtraler" to " neutral or" 94 8 Change "Ca2" to "Cl 2" 94 18 After the word " eighteen" add "-
eight" 94 21 Change "from a screen" to "for machining" 98 20 Change "Tanawanda" to "Tonawanda" 98 21 Change "Tanawanda" t- "Tonawanda" 99 7 Change " wavy" to " temporary" 100 4 Change "take" to "taken" 100 12 Change " finds" to " fines" 100 20 Change "the oriface" to "an orifice" L ___
Y APPLICANT'S ADDITIONAL CORRECTIONS TO TRANSCRIPT OF DEPOSITION HAD ON MONDAY, MARCH 28, 1983 Page No (s) . Line No (s) . Corrections 52 11 Change " infinite tesamil" to
" infinitesimal" 60 16 Change " secondary primary" to
" secondary or primary" 60 24 Change " secondary primary" to
" secondary or primary" 72 10 Change " coolant" to " core" 74 4 Change "bais" to " basis"