ML19242A412
| ML19242A412 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Rancho Seco |
| Issue date: | 06/26/1979 |
| From: | Gilinsky V, Hendrie J, Kennedy R NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 7908010620 | |
| Download: ML19242A412 (61) | |
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NUCLE AR REGULATORY COMMISSION IN THE MATTER OF:
PUBLIC MEETING BRIEFING CN RANCHO SECO
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i Pld'c'ei - Washington,
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Date - Tuesday, 26 June 1979 Pages 1-55 7.i.cnce.:
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This is an unof ficial' S'.nscript of a meeting Of the United States IMclear Regula:Ory Cc=.ission held On Tuesday, June 26, 1979 in the COm=issions's offices at 1717 H Street, N. W.,
Washington, D.
C.
The.
meetine. was c.cen to o_ ublic-attendance and. Observation.
This transcrict has nOt been reviewed, corrected, or edited, a-d it may contain inaccuracies.
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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR 3EGULATORY CO:01ISSION 2q
'tw PUBLIC MEETING 4
S BRIEFING ON RANCHO SECO 6
7 Commissioners' Conference l g
- Rcom, 1717 H Street, N.
W.
9 Washington, D.
C.
10 Tuesdav, June 26r 1979 11 The Ccmmission men, pursuant. to nc.* 4 :e, at 10:00 a.m.
12,
BerOPr i
13 DR. JOSEPH M.
HENDRIE, Chairman i
Is.,
RICHARD T.
KENNEDY, Commissioner
!5' VICTOR GILINS7Y, Commissioner 16 PETER A.
BRADFO RD, Cc=missioner 17 ALSO PRESEJT-18 Messrs. Gossick, Snyder, Ross, Cunningham, Case, and 19 1 Bickwitt, ceneral counsel, 'dessrs. Thatcher, Johnson, Wilson, I
s and Israel.
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PR0CEEDINGS 2
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CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
The first orcer of business 4
this morning is for me to note that the Co mm i ssio n, on June 5
23, puolished an order in the matter of the Rancho Seco 6
case, which among other things noted that the staff will 7
pro vide the Commi ssion wi th an inf orma tional briefing as to 8
the basis of its conclusions, prior to permi tting restart of 9
the f ac ili ty.
10 Tha t is informational briefing will be held now.
Il The briefing was announced at the time of the order.
It 12 was, ho w e ve r, scheduled on le ss than one week's notice, and 13 I will first ask my colleagues to join me in voting to ho ld 14 this mee ting on le ss than one week's notice.
15 All right.
Those in favor?
to
( A chorus of ayes. )
17 CHAIRMAN HENDRI E:
So ordered.
la The second item of business is to note that the 19 purpose of this morning's brief ing is f or the staff to t=ll 20 us about its base s f or its conclusion that the licensee, or 21 Rancho Seco, satisf ac torily completed the actions enumera ted 22 in subparagraohs A through E of Sec tion 4 of 23 Commission's Ma/ 7 confirmatory order.
24 Thi s oriefing is in no fashion intended to 25 pre juoice pending adjudicatory proceedings involving Ranco bho bd}
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1 Seco.
Any adjudica tory de terminations that may be made in 2
that preceeding, including any de terminations on issues 3
related to those that will be discu ssed todav will be based 4
solely on the record developed in that proc eeding.
5 However, the Commission is undertaking this rather 6
L:: Usual step of having an inf orma tional briefing on a matter 7
which is in volved in an adjudicatory proceeding, and due to S
t ha t f :t, if and when the Commission reviews any a spec t of 9
that adjucicatory proc eed ing, any party wishing to plcac, to 10 cite, or to refa-to the tran scri pt of today's informational briefing, they may do so.
And for that limi ted pur po se, the 12 Commission will waive the prohibition against such use 13 containec in 10 C.:R 9.103, as was noted in a f ootnote to our la order of June 21.
15 There has, I note, been a request from a party to 16 speak to the Comm i ssion in addition to the staff since other 17 parties in the matter have no t been contacted and their la wishes and ability to addre ss the Commission at this meeting 19 have not been ascertained, it seems to me ina poro pria te to 2C hear that pre sen ta tion.
And we will, therefore, hear solely 21 from the staff at this mee ting.
22 I understand that the party making the request 23 might wish to file a wri tten statment with the Co mm i ssion,
24 and I ccn't see any objec ticn tc that if the counsel 25 aggrees.
I presume it would be a ttac hed to the transcript b
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I and simply be available a s par t of the record of this 2
meeting, to be treatec in the same fashion anc served on 3
o ther partie s, as I a ssume the transcript of this meeting 4
will be.
5 COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD:
May i ask the name of that o
party?
7 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
It is a representat1ve of the S
SMUD Repairs Asscciation, Pe te r, looking past the 9
COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
When was this request 10 made?
11 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Well, I learnec about it about 12 eight minutes after ten thi s morning.
13 A '/0 ICE :
To whom was the request made?
14 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
As far as I know, the 15 secretary.
.T he secre tary inf ormed me.
16 There is one other ma tter of a sort of practical 17 busine ss here.
?Ie normally have a re porter who ta'.es cewn r
15 the proc eedings cf our meeting.
We also typically have a 19 tape as a caeck on the re por te r's transcription.
The 20 re porter seems to have not made in to the m ee ting this 21 morning but may come a little later.
22 The re i s, however, a tape being made of this 23 meeting so that a transcript can be prepared.
In 'act, the 24 secre tarty tells me it is a double ta pe system, whatever 25 t ha t may mean.
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I mention it be :ause it is pa r ticula rly im po r tan t 2
t ha t Commissioners enc staf f members speak reascnably 3
clearly anc have their microphone s close at hana so that the 4
tape is clear.
5 I see our problems in the mat ter may ra pidly be 6
alleviated.
I neverthele ss let stand my request t ha t 7
people keep their micropnones close and speak clearly, and 5
pernaps in orcer that this transcript can be as accurate a 9
one a s po ssiole.
And we will ref rain f rom an occasional 10 Comm. ssion prac tice of holding two simultaneous 11 conversa.tions, which of ten leads to conf usion in the 12 t ran sc r i pt.
13 I see ac tion over th are on the recorter's part.
14 Let us mo ve a heac, then, to the briefing.
15 Lee, please introduce the staff, and let us go 16 forwarc.
17 MR. GOSSICK:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, la I believe Mr. Case has some preliminary remarks he 19 would like to make bef ore Mr. Ro ss proc eeds with the 20 briefing.
Ne have Mr. Cunningnam with us representing the 21 Executive Legal Direc tors.
22 MR. CASE:
I would just like to point out, Mr.
23 Chairman, as you all know, we provided you on June 19 with 2a copie s of the dra f t staff saf ety evaluation and the pro po se d 25 letter to t he licensee concerning their response to the
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Commission's orcer of May 7, 1979.
But what we nave 2
p ropo sec to do this morning is walk you througn tne safety 3
evaluation, unich will also walk you through the orcer anc 4
incicate wha t the commitmen ts of the licensee were, and w hy 5
we are satisfied wi th the ac tion he has taken.
6 MR. ROSS!
We ha ve six viewgraph slides here.
May 7
we see the first one?
a A orief cnronology, the 5 MUD files and commitments 9
on April 27 and agreed in t ha t letter until the short term 10 commitments were done t,at the pl an t will be shut down, and 11 in fact was shut down the following day.
12 This was f ollowed by confirmatory order on May 7, 13 issued by the C. Imi ssion, and as Ed statec about six weeks la later the staf f prepared a saf e ty e valua tion report, 15 inclucing the short term provisions of order had been met.
Io We will l oo k a t slide two.
At least half of the orde'r 17 concerns the auxiliary f eed wa ter system.
This rather 15 simplified diagram illustrates some of the key features of 19 the Rancho Seco f eed water system.
20 It has two trains.
What is labelec a s t he top or 21 Division 5 motor driven trubine aux pump is a 100 percent 22 capacity f eed water pump with a steam turbine on one end and 23 electric motor on the o ther.
24 The other train is a motor driven only auxiliary 25 f.eed water pump.
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As you can see, either pump can be tiec into 2
either steam generator, and we will get in to some subparts 3
of Part A.
The normal course of supply is f rom tne 4
concensate storage tank, which contains atout a 24 hour2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br /> 5
supply.
6 You can switch to other sources.
7 COMMI SS IONER BR ADFORD:
When you say "I CO percent 8
capacity" in t ha t con te x t w ha t does that mean?
9 MR. ROSS:
The analysis showed you need foughly 10 500 GPMs, and either pump can put out tha t muc h, 11 CHAIR.lAN HENDRI E:
Denny, are the electric drives, 12 is that off-site po,v e r on ly ?
13 MR. ROSS:
No, t ha t is the next thing.
If you 14 look at part i of Part A -- let's go to tne next slice now.
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15 (Slide.)
16 The order in pa ragra ph A, subparagraph I through 17 9, and if you are keeping track on the SER you are now on 18 page 3, and the first part was concer. ling the aoility of the 19 motor portion of the auxiliary feecwater pumps to be loaded 20 up on the diesel in the e vent yce lost of"-site power.
21 The switchover is not automa ti c.
The a cerator has 22 some procedures to follow in the event he wants to load up 23 either of the se mo tor driven f eec water pumps to en-site 24 power, so that is a snort term procedural aspect.
25 The long term cortion of the order parallels items
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1 one through nine, in subcart A, and to what extent we will 2
ask for f urther improvements is not yet decioed.
Maybe we 3
will ask this to be pu t on diesels autcmatically en lo ss of a
a f f-site powe r.
'ie just ha ve n ' t had tho se di scussions ye t.
5 So that you don't load up the system o
inadvertently, the oy pa ss keys, so that the centrol room 7
operator has to go to the shif t supervisor's office next S
dcor to get the keys so he can loac either one of these up.
9 COMMISSIONSR GILINSKY:
'4 a y I just ask a 10 preliminary question?
11 I got asked by a re porter in Calif ornia, the fact 12 t ha t Rancho Seco was shut down and crewing were not 13 i mmedia tely -- me an t that Rancho Seco was le ss saf e to begin la with or had le ss relieble auxiliary f eedwater sys tems.
15 When we started tnis proce ss, I told him that I 16 t houg ht the answer was no.
I f any ;hing, i t may have been 17 the o ther way around.
TS I s tha t the right answer?
19 MR. ROSS:
Ne ll, the re is a moving target, namely 20 the Oconee auxiliary f esowater system.
I think as soon as 21 Oconee opened up the three units and manifolded three 22 turbine pumps to either of the three units, then, as a rough 23 e s tima te, I woulc say they had a f airly reliable system at 24 t ha t po in t.
25 Sefore that, they opened up a manifold, and they 4
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hed one pum p f o r each uni t.
Then I would say that's a 2
markedly less reliable sy s tem than Rancho Seco was or is.
3 Eut af ter ney opened them u p, my feeling is that a
they woulc ce abc ut the same general order.
5 This ha s one of the good f eatures, which i s tha:
6 it has civerse mo tor powers.
7 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
As I recall the time, Peter, a
t ha t would have been, it sceas to me, it was actually during 9
cur discu ssions on the SMW shutdown.
10 MR. ROSS:
I think Oconee o pened up its three 11 manifolds before the Commission i ssued its order.
The 12 things were moving very f ast.
Cuke Power was doing tnings 13 in acvance of us and the Commi ssicn.
We found tha: t hey had 14 developed One aoprocriate procecures f or loacing uo these
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15 motors on diesels, if necced.
16 The additional concern, part 2 of Part A, was 17 while you are doing a surveillance test, there might be a 18 neec for auxiliary f eedwa ter, so we -- the order says that 19 the opera tors shculd be out at the physical location of the 20 auxiliary feecwater pum ps, in communication.
21 Then if a transit comes along anc of f soeed is 22 needed, the operator has to s hu t a by pa ss valve to put the 23 system cack in operation.
24 Also, at the end of that test, there has to be an 25 indepencent ve ri f ica tion t ha t the valves have been returned u
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to the operaole posi tion.
2 We found that t hey had procedures in the -- t n i s 3
is on page f our of the orcer -- and the opera tor knew what 4
to do in thi s event.
In the long tern, perhaps these valves 5
will have to be provided with cypass or inoperable status, 6
like, required by Reg Guice 1.147.
Again, we haven't gone 7
into tha t ye t.
a Part 3 of paragraph A starts on page five, the 9
manual control of the auxiliary f eecwa ter.
This is getting 10 the system more independent of the in tegra ted con trol 11 systen.
The o per a tor would --
12 I don't want to go cack to a slide, but if you 13 will 1cok at your picture from the pump to the steam 14 generator, there are two valves in parallel -- o n e 15 controlled by the in te g ra ted control system.
Tha t's an o pen 16 or shut valve.
The other is an electrical infinite position 17 valve, which the operator would call the bypa ss valve, wh_ch la the opera tcr would throttle to whatever posi tion is needed, 19 and he would observe the flow rate in the level.
20 And this i s how we manually control tne auxiliary 21 feedwater system.
22 on pag e six of the SER, paragra ph f our, part A, 23
" Verification of Off Feed Water Capacity," is wnat is just 24
.vhat was mentioined by Commissioner Bradf ord, had to verify 25 tha t ycu had at least, in fact, 750 GPMs per train, per
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f eedwater train.
They can calibrate this by pumping in the 2
bypa ss moce from the concensate storage tank back to the 3
hot well, and then measuring the decrease in incnes per e
minute in the condensate storage tank anc converting this to 5
flow race.
6 The bo ttom of page seven we notice that this would 7
be reconfirmed in the start of mode.
S The next slide, now, ge t's to paragrapn five of 9
paragraph A, for some hardware was adced to the pl a n t.
10 (Slide.)
11 The order said_there should be a wef to neasure 12 auxiliary flow being delivered.
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13 This utility bought what is known a s a clam p-on la flow me ter.
You don't have to break the toe to put in en -
15 o rif i ce.
16 This starts on page eight of our 3ER wnere we find 17 t ha t they have cought and installed these sy s tem s.
As of 16 las; Thursday, they were still coing some calibrations.
19 They were moving the clamp-on ceviced f rom one portion of 20 the pipe cown to tne o the r portion.
It was on the wrong 21 sida of the securi ty f ence, and it was kind of hard to get 22 to.
Sotn local -- and then you read out, as well as read 23 out on a new panel, on a new meter pJ: on the panel in the 24 con trol rcom.
25 o ther f acili tie s, in particular Duke Power, used ts s
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orifice s pu t in the 1.ne.
This -- de pencing on how thi s 2
thing performs over a long pe ri ad o f time, this mignt be 3
another item that's updated or imoroved in tr. e long tera 4
portion of tne work.
5 COMMISSIONER BRA 0 FORD:
Who coes the work?
6 MR. ROSS:
rt's got a little ultrasonic.
I'm one 7
question deep, then I'll plead ignorance.
Mr. Thatcher is 6
here.
I ha ve n' t answered that question, but I'll bet he can 9
explain it.
10 It sends a ceam and it bounces off the water.
But 11 if you ask one more question, I'll have to pl e ad nolo 12 c on tende re.
13 CHAIRMAN HENOR I E:
I'm compellea to ask one mere 14 questicn.
15 What does it do?
Wha t doe s it sense in the 16 c hange -- wha t c ha nge in the beam return does it sense, then?
17 MR. THATCHER:
I guess you mean what proper ty in 16 the fluic?
19 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes.
That is, how do you tell, 20 how co you distinguish between, how does the beam 21 distinguish oetween the static water in the pipe and the 22 flowing water in the pipe?
23 MR THATCHER:
Well, I don't know the internals of 24 t he mec hani sm, but it has to ao eith the reflection of the 25 ultrasonic beam within the fluid itself.
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l'm no t sure that's exactly wnat Denny said, but 2
that's -- it can cetect the fluid flow, that's a flow meter.
3 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:
Wha t is it t ha t it reports 4
t ha t tells you you have fluio flow?
5 MR. ROSS:
I ha d on e conversation with the 6
licensing manager of Duke Power about how the thing worked.
7 I t was his and my joint impression that it was all 5
particles, because the theory is that if you had chemically V
pure water, i t wouldn' t work, if there were no particles.
10 His concern was tha t if he had ultrahigh grade 11 feedwater, it might not work as well.
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CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Okay.
Either particles or 13 turbulence in the flowing fluid, and the degree is
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14 sca ttering the beam signal in proportion to the flow
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ine change in b-am, yes.
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An 16 I didn't realize you were asking about the 17 consistency of the fluid, or wha te ver.
16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Okay.
In te re s ting.
19 MR. ROSS:
This was an o.f f the shelf itam.
It 20 wasnit developed new f or this purpose.
21 MR. THATCHER:
I know.
You know, I was.just going 22 to say, I know in other plants they quite of ten use these 23 fossil fuel plants f or monitoring all diff erent kinos of 2a flow.
It's not a new i te m, but i t's -- - s f ar as ge tting 25 qualified for nuclear power plants, they might no t have done
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i t, and as a result we don't see it in alot of safety 2
systaas.
3 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Okay.
Let's go on.
4 MR. ROSS:
Page nine, part six, of paragraph A, 5
the orce r said that you should review and revise the 6
procedures and training f or alternative sources of water.
7 As I mentioned earlier, the condensate storage tank has 24 5
hours, and then swi tchove r to a canal.
9 You notice in about the middle of page nine, there 10 i s -- alarms are discussed with -- alert the o pera tor tha t i
now is tne time to perf orm the switchover.
12 COMMISSIONER OILINSKY:
Were there other sources 13 a';ailable before?
I4 MR. ROS5:
Yes.
They didn't add t ai s.
The 15 concern had to do with the alarms.
The sources were t he r e.
16 In fact, I believe there was another source not 17 even mentionec.
I believe the service water is also a 18 source, but you would only use this if you hac prolonged 19 loss of off-site pow e r.
O t he rw i s e --
20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
W ha t is it NRC requires?
21 MR. ROS5:
I'm sorry?
22 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
What is it that NRC 23 requires?
24 ME. ROS5:
Oh, the new stuff.
To go over the 25 proc edure s -- I think we noticed a new alarm was put in.
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Le t me ask Sandy.
Was not a new elarm installed 2
here?
3 MR. ISRAEL:
Yes, one was installed for the three a
fcot level left in the conden sa te storage tank, and this 5
would allow greater than 40 minutes before the opera tor 6
would have to go up and swi tchover.
7 MR. ROSS:
I s -- this i s the new aspect?
6 MR. ISRAEL:
That is correct.
9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Your concern was anat?
10 MR. ROSS:
Run the condensate storage tank dry, 11 and you can camage the pump bef ore you swi tchec over.
12 Because there are alot of valves -- most of this equipmen t 13 is physically outdcors, and you have to go through one or la two gates or security f ence s.
It's -- you don't just ptis h 15 bu ttons and have it done in two minu te s.
Ic MR. ISRAEL:
Denny, I might point out tha; One 17 condensa te storage tank, that the 24 hour2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br /> supply is sort of IS unusual.
Other plants generally have le ss.
19 COMMISSIGNER GILINSKY :
So this was in a better 20 configuration than otner plan ts ?
21 MR. ISRAEL:
Ge ne ra lly.
22 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Plea se go aheac.
23 MR. ROSS:
Okay.
24 Page ten, paragraph seven, the enunciation of 25 off f eedwater auto start.
The feeling here is that if you
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get a signal t ha t the pum ps have started, that tnis would be 2
an alert that verification should be cone, which will be 3
coverec in tne next paragraph.
4 So alarms wculo be providec -- in the,aiddle of 5
page ten -- if you lose a ll c ooling pumps, main f ee dwa ter,
6 or if the manual off f eedwa ter, the mo tor criven f eedweter 7
pump had been started manually, then an alarm would come d
off.
9 Now tha t means we ha ve te take that in the context 10 of tne next item, as to wha t do you do, verification.
Then 11 you ha ve sc e immeJiate actions.
Verify that every thing has 12 correctly autostarted.
The turbine pump is up to speed.
13 It's a single speed pump.
Verify that it is up tc speed, 14 tha t you are delivering flow as cetec ted by these new flow 15 m e te r s, then you can control' level.
16 I t's thi s thing tha t you woula.;cpe would
!7 eliminate part of the TMI-2 sequence where the pump started, le out there was no verification t ha t they were delivering 19 flow.
20 par t nine, the last auto, which is on page 11 of 21 the SER, verif'es that i' -- if there is a failure in the 22 normal ISC integrated con trol sys tem valve s, tha t they would 23 not fail closed.
And at the very last of page 11 and 24 continuing on to the next page, they were supposed to 20 25 some tests to verif y that the normal flow con trol vavies
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637 Cl 17 19 mgc 1
somew he re -- in the v i c in i ty o f t ho se valvas marked 2
"moculated control" woulc be the new flow meters.
So in 3
reletion to o the r, like in reistion to Ocon ee, there wasn't 4
a great numbe r of physical change s made.
5 COMMISSIONER GILIN5KY:
You mean le ss?
6 MR. ROSS:
There were less here probably.
I 7
believe that's all the phy sical c hange s.
That's it.
S Cn page 13 of the SER, Part B of the order, is 9
more detail on manual control of the auxiliary f eedwa ter 10 system.
ile have already talked about loading the rimps up 11 to the diesel bus, if neeccd.
12 We have talked about the bypass valve which is 13 centrolled manually.
The thing we haven't mentioned is that 14 we decided tha t a test would be n.eeded -- this is the next 15 to the last paragraph on page 13 -- wi th the plant in the 16 steam mode, about 10 to 15 percent of po we r, to verify that i7 the opera tor can do wha t he has to do.
We envisioned this 18 as a steady state te s t, whe re the operator would Jog open 19 the manual bypass valve and demonstrate that he can control 20 level.
Of course, that test is yet to be done, and we would 21 ins pe c t -- e x pec t the I&E inspector to witness that test.
22 Incidentally, thi s plan t will have a -- a resident 23 has been picked, and he will be on site beofre i September.
24 And in the meantime, the Region 5 mans it on a week by week 25 basis.
c'{
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to37 01,01 20 mgc,
The principal ins pec tor, Allen Johnson, is in the I
2 audience should questions in that area arise.
3 Okay.
Page 14 of the SER -
go to the next slide.
clice.)
S part C of the order wnich icoks very much like the o
presentation we had f or Ocon ee, anticipatory reac tor trips, 7
they dic install new trips to de tect -- shut the plan t down 6
in tne even either the turoine trip or you lose both main 9
f eedwa te r pumos.
10 This is covered on page 14, 15, and par t of 16.
11 They al so commi; to a mon thly test.
To start up i2
.he pl an t, it is necessary to bypa ss the main f eedwater 13 until ycu ge the plant up to a low level in power, and then 14 ycu go into normel, and all the bypass switches in the 15 bypass position.
The re i s an ala rm. on the enunciated 16 manual.
The circuit is' essentially the same as we nad for 17 Oconee.
la In Part C, which s: arts on page 16, unless the 14 Commission has some in tere s t, I'd like to cover it tostly 20 oy saying --
21 Go to the next slide.
22 (Slide.)
23
-- that the generic analysis that B MW d id -- t h a t 24 we discussed with you in more detail on Oconee -- a ppl i e s 25 equa lly here.
There are some variations.
I believe that's r:
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M-
'NU - - -
7
.537 01 02 di Igc 1
su ppo sec to be.04 square f ee t instead of
.0!.
So that 2
typo -- I t's e sse n tia lly --
3 CHAIRMAN HENORIE:
So the.04 square f eet?
4 MR. ROSS:
Right.
5 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
No core uncovery for breaks of 6
- interest, i.e.
le ss than.04?
7 MR. ISRAEL:
Let me co rrec t that.
.01 is correct.
3 T ho se a r e the ones that ceal with the 90RV.
I'm not sure 9
with.04 whe ther you don' t still have core uncovery.
But 10 certainly for small breaks, the analysis was acceptable.
11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY :
Nould you explain that 12 again, pl ea se ?
13 MR. ISRAEL:
Earden?
14 COMMISSIONER OILINSKY :
Could you explain that 15 again, pleas'?
~
16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
What sice is the famous relief 17 valve.
la MR. ISRAEL:
It's 007.
19 So the concern f or a stuck open relief valve, you 20 have nc cora uncovery; the ref o re, you don't have any fuel 21 camage.
22 So the generic study defini tely showed that.01 23 square feet, and below, that you don't have any core 24 uncovery.
25 I'm no t sure that at.04 square f 6et there was t.e.
,.s'
\\
4 711-
.63,7 01,03 22 T.g c I
another break t ha t they did do, whether they showed there 2
was no core uncovery.
But I'm sure that they dio that 3
analysis, tnat they showed that peak clad tem pera tures were 4
a cce ptacly low f or, so th a t was not a problem.
5 Core recovery is no t a requirement for --
6 MR. CASE:
In o ther words, he is saying the 7
c ri teria, the ECS criteria, you were satisfied with.04 5
square feet, and not nece ssarily core uncovery.
9 MR. ROS5:
The me ssage tha t we go t on Oconee, 10 which wculd be applicable here, i s tha t if there was total 11 lo ss of feecwater for these SMUD breaks, HPI alone would 12 provice core ccoling.
And conversely, you could use 13 f eed vate r also, if you got it back in 20 minutes.
14 This is -- picks up on page -- e ve n tua lly, you 15 n eed fluid --
16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
That says simply that you can 17 drive -- with tne high pre ssure injec tion' ca pacity that's s
you can drive encugh fluid up the relief valve or IS there 19 equivalent size freight to carry out the afterheat.
Right?
20 MR. ISRAEL:
That is correct.
21 MR. ROSS:
There is a couple of new matters, and 22 in the middle of page 22, starting about the fourtr line 23 down and going all the way down that pace until the 24 fourth -- until the fourth line from the bottom -- there is 25 new material in tnere that was not crovided either for
(-
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/
.637 01 04 23
?,g c i
OConee Or fCT Arkansas.
2
'/I ha t we cic --
3 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
This is in analysis sense 4
rather than equi,cment cense?
5 7
5 9
10 11 12 13
,I 14 15 16 17 s
IS 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4
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5637 02 01 2a agc I
MR. ROSS:
Right.
The ma tters discussed he re are 2
generic except f o r Davis-5e sse, and they were equally 3
a policable f or all of the plants.
4 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Okay.
5 MR. ROSS:
What we nave done in our thinking is 6
carry the analysis 3ut further in time than we had done on
~/
those o ther plan ts.
The event is either a total lo ss of S
feed.<ater or it could be a very small break with loss of Y
feecwater.
10 But let's follow just the loss of feedwater train 11 of t ho ug h t.
When both HP I pumps come on, there is a pe rio d 12 of hours when you are pumcing in cold water with the -- at 13 least the poten tial f or naving a high pre ssure cold vessel, 14 so we had a numoer of discussions with the district, witn 15 BMW, we had mee tings he re and we are still -- in fact we lo receivec what we hoped is a last piece of information this I,
morning.
15 W ha t we thought was neecec was that the procedure 19 f or loss of f eedwater, to tal lo ss of f eecwater, at least 20 that procedure ought to have one adcitional section in tt, 21 and i t ought to tell the operator wha t to do in the event 22 t he -- he thinks the ve ssel has gotton so cold a t a high 23 pressure that there is a ques tion of that vessel's 24 integrity.
25 And we have built in that the admonition no t to
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563,7 02.02 25 mgc 1
turn off the high pressure injection.
But if we could see 2
at least,cotantial for such instances, where it would be 3
safer turnir.g it off, enc oy this time procaoly the core a
woula L2 acequately coolec.
5 The aif ficulty -- le t's skip the next slice anc go o
to the las t slide -- go one mo re, now.
Go one more slide.
7 (Slide.)
S The oifficutly for this e vent has to co xith how 9
do you measure temperature.
If you lock at the reactor 10 ccolant pum p, w r.e r e the li ttle arrow is, and go down about a
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12 tak e s -- tha t f eeds water f rom the stean genera tor through 13 the elbow at the bo ttom and up to the pump.
Tha cold leg 14 temperature indica tor is in the~ vertical.cipe a f ew f ee t 15 down from the reactor coolant pump.
So in this postulated 16 sequence, there are no cumos running.
There is no coolant I,/
reactor, low.
t r.e hign pressure injection is pu tting in i
IS water over near the vessel.
So those colo leg thermometers 19 may not be reading accurately, accura tely readin; One 20 ve sse l.
21 Yet tha t's the thermot.eter that rea c to r o.ce ra tor s 22 traditionally use to see if they mee Appencix G for 23 pre ssure vessel integri ty.
24 So we worked on different alternates, and we have 25 gotten cown now to w he re we think we have a vor'.:aole e b
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637 02,03 26 mgc 1
solution, although we just got a telex tnis morning and we 2
haven't h ao a c na nc e to reflec t on it.
Eut what we can 3
beli eve is that we can in f er the ve ssel fi id conditions, 4
cecause witn this sequence there will be at least in ternal 5
circulation in the ve ssel, anc we think tnat procaoly quite 6
a bit of it in early times.
So by subtracting an 7
a ppropriate amount from the outle t, you can get the inlet S
wnic n is the annulus, and for that you can enter a pressure 9
vessel integrity curve, so that would take care of half of 10 the question.
11 The other half would be for this extreme scenario:
12 w ha t pre ssure ve ssel -in tecrity curve should a pply?
And we 13 kicked around se ve ra l alternates, and what we think
.s 14 appropriate would be to remove the factor of two, safety 15 f ac tor on the multiplier f or the membrane or hoo p s tre ss, to 10 k ee p the same flaw size and same dynamic properties.
17 We have the se m.a terials spe cialty people here tha t le can oiscuss this, if you want to get into it any further.
19 We're not through aith it ourselve s, ye O.
W ha t we 20 tnink the work produc t is woulc be one more section in a 21 procecure that tells the opera tor wha t to co in the event he 22 perceives an ultrachilleo vessel.
23 CHA IR.'. TAN HENDR I E :
How long does it take to get 24 down -- the re's an awf ul lo t of storec energy in t ha t 25 vessel, so it ocesn't ha ppe n --
1, t.
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563,7 02,04 27 agc 1
MR. ROSS:
I t's mode s t.
In terms of degrees per 2
hour, it's a relatively modest tr an si e n t.
3 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
The flow rate jus sn't that a
hign?
5 MR. ROSS:
Well, for tha first few hours you oon't 5
have a cutaway.
But the bent valves on the core barrel 7
would be open while the vessel is steaming, and steam will S
be coming back -- a ccording to 3MW's preciction -- and 9
mixing with the cold wa te r and warming it up.
10 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Right.
11 MR. ROSS:
To wha t extent it really works, this 12 wouldn't ce seen on the ve sse l --
13 CHAIRMAll HENDRIE:
Yes.
MR. ROSS:
Af te r a f ew hour s of mixing, well, now, 1.5 because the valve wouldn' t be shut, yo0 would be putting to warm wate r, pre ssurized wa ter, bu t it wouldn't be steaming.
17 CHAIRMAN HENORIE:
Well, tha t is just because the 18 steaming ra te goes dcwn, and you ha /en' t got it oriving.
19 MR. ROSS:
Ye s, because the pressure, the b eck 20 pressure is coming f rom whatever is resisting in the PORV, 21 which has to be open for this trensien t.
22 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes, so you come to a place 23 af ter you have steamed awhile, and the c?ter heat is 24 beginning to tail off, when you.ight decide tnat /ou wanted 25 to either intermi ttently thro ttle, more likely thro ttle than
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5637 02 05 25 mgc I
cut off, th ro t tl e the injec tion flow, and let it get a 2
li ttle warmer in the vessel, or at least keep it frca 3
getting colder.
4 MR. ROSS:
Now, two po i n t s.
Oirst, this is 5
unfinisheo.
We haven't f inis hed our dark, and it would 6
a pply equally to the o the r plan ts.
7 Se:ond, the po i n t is a more cetailec analysis by S
SMW, i.no they've commi tte d to do one.
It will take them a 9
month or two.
And they show that t he whole problem would 10 go away, 11 MR. CASS:
I t's a non-problem to begin with.
12 MR. ROSS:
Aosent t ha t, we t ho u g h t we ougnt to 13 builc in some pro tection to get the a ppropria te calance 14 betw.een core cooling and reactor coolant pressure 15 protection.
16 MR. SNY DER :
Denny, is your relief capacity that 17 muc h lower tnan the HP I injection rate?
18 MR. ROSS:
When you are steaming through the 19 relief valve, the pre ssure dro p i s hi g he r.
2C MR. SdYDSR:
You would e ven tua lly just be going 21 out with solid wa ter.
22 MR. ROSS:
As soon as ;t starts going solid, the 23 pressure is going to come down.
This is a calculeteo 24 pre ssure balance between pumrs with a certain flow del.very 25 heac curve and the pre ssure drop throughout the system, cut
,, &~
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i63.' 02,06 29 agc to the PORV.
2 SMW has done some craft calculations, but they 3
want to change the code around and run it out to 10 hours1.157407e-4 days <br />0.00278 hours <br />1.653439e-5 weeks <br />3.805e-6 months <br />.
4 But t ha t's go ing to take some time, and to cnange tne code 5
first, and then running it is going to take some time alsol 6
To thi s end, we expect to be working with the 7
owners who will try to ge t one answer for all.
I don
6 think tnis will apoly to Cavis-Eesse, because of the lo er 9
discnarge heac on the high head punps.
That's the 10 acditional feature of Part D.
11 I did want to men tion, since t he re is no 12 a ppro pria te place --
13 COMMI5 SIGNER 5RADFORO:
Does tnat apply to any of 14 the other BMW. pumps?
15 MR. ROSS:
Yes, e xc e pt f or Davi s-S e sse.
?!h a t e v e r 16 we do here, I believe, subject to check, BMW.has sen t t he se 17 guidelines to all their customers, or else they will.
IS I'd like to men tion, since there
's no place --
19 CHAIRMAN HENORIE:
Before we leav3 this, as a 20 ma tter of curiosi ty, what does system pressure come down to 21 in this moda?
22 MR. ROSS:
As I recall, eight pounds.
23 MR. ISRAEL:
I really aant to couc h eve ry thing.
24 We are talking abcut a very degraced condition.
We have no 25 auxil.ary f eedwa ter, no heat removal by the steam genere cr, 1
(3 \\n.
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1637 02 07 30 mgc 1
and this sort of went beyonc whatever we have licensec 2
clan ts f o r.
3 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes.
4 MR. ISRAEL:
Anc my concern was tha t we were 5
putting the opera tor oe: ween a rock anc a hard place.
One 6
mode we talo him to keep on two HPI pum ps in order to
_hree M..,e Is.3 anc si tuation.
in, e o ther mode,
i 1-
/
prec.,ude t n.e 5
he had the se pre ssure ve ssel integrity curves which were --
9 really weren't designed f or thi.s si tuation either which he 10 was trying to follow.
11 3ut to get back to your question, we told him to 12 put on two HPI pumos, wor th about 1000 OPMs, cown around 13 six, eignt huncred psi, and the pres 3Ure that 5'Dl estimated 14 going througn one square inch ?ORY would be about SCO osi 15 ore ssure ve ssel pre ssure.
16 MR. ROSS:
Ina n's in time three to five ho u r s,
17 right?
15 MR. ISRAEL:
Right.
Tha t's wha t ;;,e w a t e r --
19 they're just discharging water through ?ORV.
20 CHAIRMAN HENOP.IE:
In this mode you have sent t he 21 PORV a signal to open, so you are not riding against its 22 relief, actomatic relief pressure.
23 MR. ISRAEL:
That's right.
The guidelines speak 24
- o two situations where you want the operator to manual.y 25 open to PORV, anc both situations basically speak to naving s,
S ~,
f en v
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- mgc, I
no heat sink.
You are no t removing heat from the steam 2
generator, in wnich case you wan to cepre ssurize the pl an:
3 as best you can, with whatever you nave.
4 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Yes.
,Oqc:
I t n..i n x,
- .,,i s i s a s good a pe,acs as any M.
s o
x o
to bring up the matter that we had, that developed in the 7
last few days.
I t's some allegations from a member of staff e
at nancno oeco.
9 I receivec some calls, bo th here in Ee:hesca as 10 well as last week when I was at the site, from people w ho 11 asked -- oidn't give me their names askea to remain 12 anonymous, and since I don't know w ho they were it was easy 13 to follow tnat request.
14 They a sserted that there were non-licen sed 15 operators at Ranc ho Seco.
They have --
16 COMMISSIONER KdNNEDY :
They asserted ney were?
17 MR. ROSS:
They were.
16 CO MMI SS ION ER KE.'dlEDY : They were?
19 MR. ROSS:
Yes.
I don't have any vay of checking, 20 of course, except as events -- a s e ven ts turned out, I 21 believe tha t these people were.
I con' t think they were 22 phonies or anything.
23 There are t hr ee types of,ceo pl e out there.
There 24 are power plan t aides or attendants, equ i pmen t a ttenc an ts,
25 and then I believe euxiliary operators.
The se -- se v e r a l
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037 02 09 32 mgc I
peo pl e I talked to were concerned t ha t tnere was a high 2
turno ver in the se non-licen sed operators, that they cidn't 3
get enought training, and t ha t people woulc be hirec in and a
then af ter a f ew mon ths with only minimal training, they 5
would be askec important safety function.c.
And the concern o
wa s t ha t this repre sen ted som e kind of problem tha t n eeded 7
attention, c
Like we do with eny allega tion s, BE was 9
immedia tely no tif iec.
I&E cid open an investigation.
That 10 in ve s tiga tion is continuing, and as of last night it ha s no t 11 been closed.
12 Following tnese initial allegations, tnere were 13 some f ur t ne r -- t he people I talked to by the way out there la last week, they callec me u p i n my mo t e l.
I listenec to all
~
15 of them, cut I also said that f or f ur ther, for follow-up, lo
" Ca ll
.eg io n 5, " anc I gave them the phone number.
This is 17 w ha t Mr. Je ssie Cruz and I had agreed on, so t ha t they would Ic have somebody out there to talk to.
19 Late last week there wa s f o llow-u p on these 20 alleg ations about concern that the procedures that were in 21 books at local control stations -- like out near the 22 auxiliary f eecwater pump rcom or wha te ver -- had pen end ink 23 c hange s.
Some people had made local c hange s in the 24 procedures, end were -- at least the implication _ s t ha t 25 they were unau thorited change s.
r, fii i
/ l' y y ' ~ 6,H 4 e
33 5c3,7 02.10 mgc 1
I&E cid inve s tiga te las: Friday.
They looked at 2
th se pen anc ink cnanges and ccr. iucec that Onese were not 3
suostantive, but merely reminders.
4 They cic talk with the licensee la s t F-i day, and 5
reemphasized that pe o pl e shoulc follow only o fficial control 6
copies.
7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Could you give an example 5
o f suc h a c ha nge ?
Y MR. ROSS:
No.
I personally coulc not.
The area 10 we were talking at was in the demineralizer pclisher area, il and Mr. Cruz that I talkec to last night said that the 12 subs:ance of it was jus a reminder.
13 Ncw, cc you have any more detaii0 14 COMMISSIONER GILI:,JKY:
The se were no: changes in 15 procecure?
. 'o MR. ROSS:
He said that they were not suo stan ti ve 17 changes in procecure.
15 Let me check.
Ai, do you have any raore 19 information?
20 MR. JOHNSON:
No, I don't have any more 21 information, but normally wha t you will have in operating 22 procedure s wnere the procedures are at the cesk, many 23 opera tors will write remincers, or write notes to t hem se l ve s 24 on a procedure.
It doesn'; go to the procecure ::self.
25 For example, tney m.ight put:
"Make sure you oc i:
1 F,,, itt'
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i N. %9=0%
.. 7 u,e-11 a-2ca mgc 1
this step first.
Make sure you co that last" or something 2
like that.
3 COMM ISS IONSR GILI.NSKY :
Aren't the steps wri tten 4
out in order?
5 MR. JOHNSON:
I ha v e. ' t pe r sonally looked at any
'ecause I wa s ou t of town last w eek and 6
of these procedures, c
7 haven't oeen up Onere since.
But this is the type of S
informatico I got from talking wi th Mr. Cruz anc 9
Mr. Morrell, who nac ceen t he r e, an; Mr. Morrell hac 10 reviewed these procecures.
Anc he inci ca tec that they were not really c hange s 12 in the procecure w he re yo u c ha nge the mode or sequence of 13 events.
14 MR. ROSS:
Let me continue.
You may want to 15 return to that theme.
I&$ has now talkec to 12 of the 25 10 non-licensec operators at Ranc ho Se co.
Among otner things, 17 they askec each of those 12 two que stior s.
The f irst was:
to are any of you aw are of an unsaf e concit:cns in t he plan t?
19 ine answer wa s no.
20 The second questions had to co with:
what would 21 you, the o pe rato r, do if you were conf ronted with a 22 si tua tion f or wnich you didn't have a procedure?
23 Of course, they were trying to see if somecody 2'
woula carry on and make up an ac hoc procedure, and the 25 answer wa s tnat they'a stop anc go find cut and go ask wnst i n
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563,7 02.12 35 mgc 1
to do.
2 They have ciscussed with ne licensee -- made 3
three points with tnem.
They saic one or two of the 4
operators wno don't have tne TMI training
- I :nink they 5
were in the process of going to the simulator and coming 6
back.
I ju s t want to emphasize that these one or two pec ole 7
shouldn't s tand wa tc ning, the work shoulc be done.
I don't a
have their names.
9 The seconc point was they talked acout the 10 procedures we just talk ed about, that they should tell 11 everybcdy to f ollow only control copy procecures.
12 The tnird thing they mentionec to the licen see is 13 na t some of these non-licensed operators need some more 14 instruction and training.
Osay.
Now that's the sta tus of 15 the investigatior which i s not comple te.
And the way tnat 16 I&E crcinarily reports, the Commi ssion will ge t copie s when 17 it's done.
IS COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD:
?ie r e n ' t there a l '. e g a t i o n s 19 concerning security personnel as well?
20 MR. ROSS:
Not really.
I made a note t ha t I sent 21 to Mr. Mo ssely.
The only comment that I got on security was 22 for the -- the first anonymous call I hac was, the guy said, 23 and I think i t's a f air quo te :
" Security has always been 24 known to be a joke at the site, and now the training of 25 non-licensed o pera tors is being a joke."
That's the only
.i1 (i k ) {s i
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637 O2 l3 36 mgc 1
way security was mentioneo to me.
2 If there were any o ther security allegations I 3
don't know about them.
4 COMMISSIONER SRACFORD:
I'm just referring to the 5
caily staf f notes wnich I assume were basec on whatever.
6 MR. ROSS:
None of the recent allegacions that I 7
am aware af got into securi ty.
5 SUC, Al, do you know of any security allegations?
9 MR. JOHNSON:
No, I know of none recently.
10 I think i t's in cortant to no te, however, that 11 the se o pe rators o f_tni s equipmen t that you are speaking of 12 is comple tely non-saf ety relatec.
It's such as o cera ting 13 the mineralizers, opera ting this type of thing, and it's not
~~
14 what we usually exercise jurisdiction over, nornally~ review 15 or 1cok into, because it coes not involve the saf e ty of a lo plan t in any way.
17 Unle ss you carry it cown through several sequences le and you say, " O.< a y, this, you know, is like the horse you 19 nail; you lose One war," this type thing.
I think this is 20 t he type of thing we have to recognize.
21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
What category do you put 22 auxiliary ocerators in?
23 MR. JOHNSON:
Ncn-licen sec peo ple.
And they dc 24 not operate saf e ty-rela ted equipmen t.
25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
In the control room?
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MR. JOHNSON:
No.
They are over in the auxiliary 2
building.
3 COMM ISS IONER 3ILINSKi:
t nere are no unlicenssc 4
persons opera ting equi pmen t in the control room?
5 MR. JOHNSON:
Uncer than trainees under direct 6
supervision of licensea opera tors.
7 COMMISSIONER OILINSKY:
Wouldn't they fall in to a
this category?
9 MR. JOHNSON:
No, because they have to ao things 10 under the cirect control cf the o pe ra tor, su pervi sor.
ney 11 can ce told" "You go turn that valve."
Arc an indivicual 12 goes anc turns the valve.
13 But the licensec o pera tor is tne one wno's 14 responsible.
15 COMMISS IONER GILINSKY You sound like you naven't 10 covered the training of the o pe re tors.
I assume you will.
17 MR. ROSS:
.N e ll --
Io COMMISSIONER GILINSt;Y :
Let me just ask a 19 question. You can answer now or later.
20 Co the unlicensed o pera tors come, or operators in 21 training, receive the same training on 1.4 I and related 22 ma tters?
23 MR. ROSS:
I don't think so.
I don't think -- I 24 cid speak with the training coordinator o;t there ecout the 25 training for non-licensed people.
hey cc:'t go to the k Y, ~
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M37 02 15 35 mgc i
simulator, whicn is wnere t he licensea peo pl e --
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Is that the case for all 3
the SAW plants?
4 MR. ROSS:
I'm su re it is.
5 Now there was some training on the -- on re spon s e 6
to the culle tin that was supposed to go to everycody, but it 7
wasn't tha t de tailed.
S COMMI5SIONER GILINSKY:
When are these trainees 9
going to pick up that part of their ecucation?
10 MR. ROSS:
The new operators ?
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Operators in training, not 12 only at Rancno Seco, but a t all of the plants.
13 MR. ROSS:
That 's no t specifically covered oy the 14
~ orders.
We will ha ve to make up something for tnat.
15 Let me just -- I don't t hi n k --
lo COMMISSIONER GILINSKY :
Because there coulc be 17 circumstances when you have two operators in the control 15 room one of whicn H.a s no t received his training.
19 MR. ROSS:
In time, if you cic nothing, then there 20 acula be no operators with TMI training, because, you know, 21 disorderly of people up and out.
2.?
So I'm convincec there will have to be a 23 continuous training program.
But right now there is no 24 mecnanism that says, that picks up on this long term aspect.
25 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
Well, tne nechen!sm would be
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563.7 02.16 39 I
i ssuance of a license to a ned coerator, which our examiners
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or licensed examiners would assure that they had TMI 3
training.
4 MR. ROSS:
?le haven't done anything on it yet.
I 5
t hink it needs to be cone.
vie just haven't done it.
5 To get to the bo ttom line on the allegations, I 7
asked I&S management w ha t t he y thought about the allegations S
with respect to the order.
I talked to Mr. Mo ssely His e!
9 inclination was to keep the two things separate, f
P' 10 Rignt now there is no basis in his mind, f rom the 11 allegations ano the investigation, to take any harsh acticn.
12 His theory was that -- he has a range of ac tions.
They 13 woulo be appropriate to whatever his investigation turn s up, 14 including, i f ne c e ssa ry, shu tting a plan t down.
15 Io 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 n,
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He did not -- he did not want to mix.he two, as 2
far as ne was concerned, carticularly wnen there was no
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late it wa sn' t discussed in the 5 E.4.
It really wasn't 6
g er maln to the SED, but somehow or the other the information 7
has got to come out.
3 Okay.
The last part had to do with training.
I 9
don't think we need to put a slide up fo r that.
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vi la the auxiliary feedwater system area, o u,0 they might not be 15 a c l e t o g'e t all their operators back and get TMI :nrough 16 training.
Sc the sacrt term order and sho rt term 17 commitment said that tney would have one senior licensed 13 operator in the snort term.
Anc then in the long erm whica 17 i s -- yo u wo ul d h a v e to re"er perhaps back to the oroer --
20 they would have all the people trained.
They are no.t to the 21 point where they can have a complete set in the control r oom 22 of TMI, cwo simulated treined people.
So they are really in 23 compliance more on the long term portion of this.
Ail of the licensec
,-do personnel, tnen, would ne ve had --
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t' e s.
I think the re 'ay be one or twc
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Tne r e we r e s om e -
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13 MR. ROSS:
Ranche was ap3 rating.
Arkansas was 11 down. I believe for refueling.
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have encuan, 15 they couldn't operate a'll the units.
16 MR. ROSS:
Right.
I believe
- tnis nay be ne 17 only piant that had that phraseology, as I recal!-
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19 CH A I RM A.'l HE.1D R I E :
And Rancho now has all One 20 licensed operators?
21 MR. ROSS:
Right.
The y have about 22 operators.
22 I think the routine examination -- that is, a test was 23 contrived -
2d VR. CUtiNI.!GHA M:
Denny, I tnink that is wnet 25 Commissioner Gilinsky wants to talk about:
training, new
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how we ve rif isc thi s.
3 MR. ROSS:
Right.
_.ine way we nac the review set up, :he same team 5
that reviewed Oconee also reviewec -- it was Onere turn ;o 6
review Ranc no Seco.
7 So the people in the aucience are the same people.
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We have lookec a: :he answer 10 key.
The same now ":ast in concrete" of a grade of 90 na s 11 been establisneo.
If peo ple can'; pa ss, don' t g- ; e grace c
12 of 90, :ney don't get to stand wa te n.
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Now, these are :es:s made la up by the utilitie s :nemselve s?
15 MR. ROSS:
That's correct.
10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
-o we check them cefore 17
- ney are given, or af ter the f act?
I MR. ROSS:
No t before.
I don't believe before.
I 19 k r.o w -- y o u c a n ' t see them un til af ter, oc you?
20 MR.
'4 I L SON :
Afterwaros.
21 MR. ROSS:
Ne get copies of the 2.1 u ti li ty-acm in i s;e red test, the utili ty's opinion of wha: the 23 answers ough; to Le, plus all the writ;en -- all the tests 24 or all the o pera tors.
25 COMMISIONER KENNEDY :
Are you satisifisc tha
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5637 03.02 43 mgc I
test, i n d.e e d, is a good test?
2 MR. ROSS:
Yes, sir.
I think we have provicec 3
samples to the Commission in two instances.
?
COMM ISS IONER GILINSKY :
I've received t hem in two 5
cases.
6 MR. ROSS:
As we have seen in other clants, the 7
initial appraisal was that some of the training had some c
wea.< ness and we have discussec it and needec more emphas:s, 9
both in some of the new procedures es well as some of the 10 TMI-2 11 Of the initial tests, I believe 5 out of the 21, 12 or 5 out of the 22 -- I forge whic h -- cidn' t make 90 on 13 the first go-around.
And there was sufficien:
15 management attention to this, in your view, on the part of 16 Ranc r.o S eco managemen t in order to proce ss and oversee it?
17 Secause we hac tha t problem in one case before.
IS MR. ROSS:
Mell, I'm not sur e.
19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Not at Ran c ho Seco, but at 20 Oconee.
21 MR. ROSS:
In thi s instance, what does 1: -- 1:
22 requirec, I think SMUD ei ther concluded or agreec t".a: they 23 neecec some external help.
So ; hey called on one of 24 2S at i
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their orior consultants, General Physics, to come in end not 2
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3 w ee k -- o u t also co do an independent audit of :ne re sults a
and oral examination.
5 So I think that oy themselves they've probaoly --
5 they wouldn't have done as well.
They d id have to get some 7
outside help.
3 I think that concludes our airect case, so ;o 9
speak.
13 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
Juestions?
J1 CO MM I SSIO.iER 3R ADFCRD:
The test consisted of 12 typical situs tions and, ".1ha t would you do with them" kinds 13 of questions?
14 MR. ROSS:
All the training, it's really slanted 15 toward new procedures and TMI-2.
This was not a broad, 15 "You have got a ba_ttleship on the prarie ; how are yd'u going 17 to s ink it" type thing.
That hasn't come yet.
I think 15 tnat's -- that will come.
19 COVM 55IGNER 3RACFORD:
Throughout my scnolestic 20 c a r ee r, a grade of 90 was pretty good to me.
But tnis 21 cituation does say that you are getting one out of tan 22 wrong?
23 VR. ROS5:
I was just glanc ing at :nis.
There are 22 s ix que s t. ions with
- three, four, s ix ~- the r e are really 25 twelve questions on here, subparts.
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COMMISSIONSR 3RADFORD:
I understand that.
2 MR. ROSS:
3ruce, let me ask a question.
In the 3
training department, do they study for com. mon mode 4
mistakes on tests for use in rec all and further lectures?
5 MR. WILSON:
On the bas is of LERs?
6 MR. ROSS:
Yes.
7 MR. WILSON:
Yes, these are usually f actored into 3
the test by the training pe riod.
9 MR. CUNNI NGHAM :
Is he apprised of what tne right 10 answer is?
11 MR. WILSON:
Yes, he is counseled on it.
12 COMMI SSI0 DER SRADFORD:
What I'm really af ter is 13 some feel of what tne process is that gives you assurance 14 th-t e ven if somebody scores 90 on this t e st, it doesn't 15 mean that he's going to make one out of ten decisions wrong 16 when he is actually at the controls.
17 MR. W ILSON:
It's kind o f a multi-layered la a pp ro a ch.
The first thing that we did was ask them to 19 adm inis te r the ir own examin.:t ion, and they wrote two 20 examinations to cover all of their separate shifts, since 21 they would be coming in at dif ferent times.
22 In the case of Rancho Seco, E think we did r' view 23 the.first exam before it was given.
But it was not f o rm a ll y 24 sent in:
" Review th.s en approve it before we give it."
25 We judged, in our cranch, tnat we thought nis exam n
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This was the first 2
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facility-administered exam.
4 The second step was tne audit that we cid, myself 5
and the Region 5 inspector, and this was done on 50 percent 6
of the operating, shif t operating crews, seven out of 14 7
The tnird step was the lecture series and 3
retraining done by General Physics when they came in there, 9
and that covered 100 percent of the operating people.
iO The fifth step was a reaudit by General Phy sics, Ji which would he a different individual than the one wno gave 12 the training.
13 And the fLnal one was a reaudit by eight pecple by 14 NRC inspectors, so we imagine, ef ter all of these, nat they 15 had to get the training somehow.
16 And the conclus ion f rom the Region 5 insoector, 17 wno looked at S cut of che 14 perele, was tnat everythinc la was sa,tisfactory.
19 CO MM LSSIONER SRADFORD:
Where in that cha in did 20 they take the tests?
21 l4 R. WIL30N:
The 90 percent test was the first 22 step.
23 CO MMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I s ee.
24 MR. WILSON:
This was only in the case of -- we ll, 25 except Oconee, because this was kind -- it began witn Y?) /
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Oconee, enen we went down there and decided to do the audit 2
in the first place, and found deficiencies, and we sa id :
3 "Well, why don't you administer the test."
4 COVMISSIONER 3 RAD.00RD:
It epplied to Oconee, too, 5
as well, before you ac tuall y permitt ed startup.
6 MR. WILSON:
Right.
7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I must say I'm a little 3
concerned that coerators in training sre not getting the 9
training on TMI and new procedures that licensec operators 10 are ge tting.
.11 CDMMISSIONER KENNEDY :
They are not?
I thought
~~_
12 they were.
13 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I tho ught they were.
14 COVMISSIONER GILINSKY:
The answer I understood 15 Denny to say was that tney were not.
16 MR. ROSS:
ne have got two different kinds of 17 people:
non-licensed operators, if you prefer --
18 CO VMISSIONER GILT dSKY:
Non-licensec operetors, 19 yes.
20 MR. ROSS:
They don't get tne sane trc in ing,
21 bec ause they haven't been designated yet to be reactor 22 licensed operators.
23 COVNISSIONER GILINSKY:
That's true, but s-times 24 one of these persons mignt be one of the t ac individuals inA 25 the control rcom.
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MR. ROS5:
I don't think 50.
2 MR. WIL5ON:
They can ce in control -com, out 3
first of ali, the regulations say tne: they are no: ellowed 4
to operate the controls unle ss they are in training, in a 5
specified training crogran.
(ou have tc be designated for a
that training program.
7 Se condl y --
3 COVMI55IONER KENNEDY:
Ex:use me, if they are 9
designated by -- for the training pro gren and er a under it, 10 they will get the TMI training?
.11 MR. ROS5:
Eventua ll y.
We heven't set cut in 12 some definitive mode what you just said.
I'm sure it's 13 true.
W e do n' t have any of ficial requirement ye t.
14 CO MM!55IO.iER GILI N5KY:
They haven't had it yet, 15 or at least the licensees have not bee required 50 provide 16 it yet.
17 MR. ROSSI Well. Under the terms of this order 15 which, I gue.ss, continue in effect for some pericd of time, 19 they cannot stand watch until they get a grade of 90.
This 20 in turn implies some other stuff.
21 I think your concern is, in two or three years 22 from now.
23 COMMISSIONER JILIN5XY:
Well, I want tc understand 24 this situation.. If they are part of the centrol race crew, 25 will they have received this training?
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MR. ?!I L50 N :
I tnink that's the misconceotion 2
right there.
They are not considered part of the control 3
room crew.
71e requ ire two licensed oecole in tne co-t ro l 4
r oo m.
They are not one of then.
o inat's an extra p erson on shift.
He is answering a different que s t io n.
7 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
I think it's the right one.
3 MR. ROSS:
If you are going to be part of the 9
control room crew, will you have the tr a in in g ?.
10 CO MMISSIONER GILI NSKY:
Yes.
Yes.
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12 Can I' point to a,clece in the order where it says 13 that?
No.
14 COMMISSIollER GILINSKY:
Me ll, how do you define 15
" control room crew"?
l$
As I understand it, we had a discussion about this 17 yesterday, I think, and the operators in training are 13 counted in the ccmplement of tnree that are required to ce 19 present at the reactor.
20 I s tha t no t r ight ?
21 MR. ROSS:
Le t's as k One inspector.
22 MR. JOHNSON:
You can ccurtt him as the individual.
23 You need, I be lie ve, i t's t wo licensed operators.
24 COMM ISSIONER GI LINSKY:
3ut there at e tines wnen 25 only one licensed operator may oe in the c o n t r o.1 raon.
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Tha t's true.
(ou are only r=cuired 2
to have one licensed operator in the control con.
3 COAtMISSIONER GILINSKY:
So you n3y have ene 4
licensed coerator and one individual in training.
5 VR. JOHNSON:
Tha t's tr ue, out he cannot operate 6
the controls unless the licensed coerator supervises him.
7 COVMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Right, but circu, stances 8
may arise wnen you nave to rely on hin to do i portant 9
tnings.
10 MR. JOHNSON:
Sy the rules, yo u cannot rely on nin
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e can onl'y do prec<se.t y l <,.
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14 In c;her words, -- let me be s ur e I understand 10.
15 He may physicelly go over and turn a valve, on.
16 MR. JOHNSON:
That's ture.
17 COMMI SSIONER GI LINSKY:
Well, if he's cne of the IS wa - a. c o..a-
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You only need cne licensed Operatcr 20 in the centrol rocn to opera te tne plant.
That's e ll you 21 need.
22 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
B ut there are other peccia there, 23 out they are all under the direction of this licensed 24 operator.
25 MR. ROSS:
May I ask a question?
One licensed,
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3 MR. JOHNSON:
When it's operat ing.
4 MR. ROSS:
Co rr ec t.
Okay.
5 MR. JOHNSON:
Sut not in the control room.
6 MR. ROSS:
I unde rs t an d, but this trainee doesn't 7
take the pla c.e o f one of the se three ?
3 VR JOHNSON:
.No.
But he can be in the control 9
rocm and he can do the things the licensed operator directs 10 h im to do, out he doesn't count, so to speak, unle ss he is J1 li:ensed.
12 VR. ROSS:
Now, at some point in t ine, this 13 trainee would get the same train ing.
When?
ae don't ". e v e 14 that "when" cefinea.
A week before he takes his test, 2 15 year Oefore he takes his test, we don't have that fully 16 defined yet.
17 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:
But, see, another way of s e ying 1o-
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21 MR. MILSON:
That's tr ue.
22 MR. JOHNSON:
Tha t's true.
23 CH).IRMAN HENDRIE:
Any place a trainee e.cpp e a r s,
24 he is an a dd i t io n
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That's not the 7
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He ma y, indeed, be one of the two oecole in the S
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19 would suggest, not e downgrading.
20 Co.W4ISSIO:iER GIL::15sY:
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.e like a very ' e rg e n u...^ e r,
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25 MR. J Ps.W.NS Tti :
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very large number eitner.
.1 MR. CU MiI:!GMA.a:
One licensea person.
..i R. J O H.'IS o ff:
You can have f./e in the re for 5
6 lunch, or some thing.
7 COMMISSIO;iER GILI:'ISKY:
Mell..ve h a v e si x c e in a
h..
s 7
CO MM I SS I 0iiER 3R AD.=0 ID :
In the situa:1cn 1.'
which 10 there is a minimum number of people there, how long does it
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17 MR. W SO:!:
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in the case of Oconee --
13 although this is not under consideration e this cine --
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20 control rocm of Unit 3, wnich is a separate unit, and aree 21 in the control reams of Unit I and 2,
.c i-h a r e ccmbined 22 control rcons.
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24 you know, sort of general.
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as unique to Rancno Seco, and I couldn't s se that it is a m g c.
2 fair question as a general standari for snitt me.nin; and 3
control room manning.
4 Now, let's see.
Mhere do One other nuestions take 5
us from there?
6 Counsel?
OPE?
Further from the staff?
7 Okay.
Very gcod.
Thank you very much.
3 (dhereucon, at li :25 a.m., the nearing was 9
adjourned.)
10
.11 12 13 i4 15 16 17 13 19 20 21 29 23 0e 2e Q
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June 26,1979 S"MEMENT My name is Dee Price and I am the secretary of the SMUD Ratepayer's Assoc., Inc.
Please forgive my nervousness for I have been rushing a great deal since making the decision to come here.
We are very appreciative of the opportunity to speak and I will be brief.
When I read in last Saturday's Sacramento Bee that we (SMUD) were to possibly be sued by a more vocal group if NRC approves Rancho Seco's start-up without first holding a public hearing, I knew we must stand up and be heard.
We are a small association, with only about 325 members but have been duly incorporated under California State law and a copy of our By-Laws and Articles of Incorporation are on file with the Secretary of State.
Our purposes are to educate the public regarding different types of resources used for generating electricity, encourage energy conservation, and encourage public participation at SMUD Board of Director meetings so that people can see how Board decisions can affect their electrical rates.
Most of our members are from Organized labor unions and hold a very firm belief that jobs and energy go together to help produce a healthy economy.
As you may know, the SMUD Board of Directors meets on the first and third Thursday of each month and these meetings are open to the public.
After approximately 30-45 minutes after each meeting begins, visitors are invited to make statements of five minutes or less.
Well, since TMI occurred, each and every board meeting g_g-l=y=9
.,n L:: 1,
- I J y
- Ms. Price did not actually speak.
See Chairman's statemement on pg. 4, line 22 of this transcript.
at SMUD has been a public airing of the similarities between TMI and Rancho Seco.
Our Board seems to now have more difficulty conducting its regular business!
On May 16, Paul Carr, a Director of SMUD, Russ Miner of the California Energy Commission and myself toured Rancho Seco so that we could see the completed NRC requests and ask questions.
Earlier on the sxme day, Commissioner Gene Varanini of the California Energy Commission had also been conducted on a similar tour.
Later Commissioner Varanini requested the NRC staff to brief the entire California Energy Commission on the items addressed in the NRC Order and, I believe, what SMUD had done to comply with that order.
This meeting was held last Thursday, June 21, in Sacramento and was scheduled between 10:00 a.m.
and Noon and stated that " An opportunity will be provided for public questions and comments.
Comments will be limited to 5 minutes per persen."
The dialogue between your staff people and the Commission concluded at approximately 1:00 p.m.
and after lunch, reconvened at 2:15 p.m.
While I was not the first to sign up for speaking, I was certainly not the last, but guess who ended up last!
That was not the first time Commissioner Maullin has done that to me and I'm sure it won' t be the last.
m?w Tha first speaker was given about 35 minutes and the ASSAULT 3
u begen in earnest.
We had five people who had travelled over 3
20 w
g
./
100 miles to speak and one of them never asked a question, she just made a statement.
Your staff was questioned about emergency evacuation procedures, by a Commissioner and when Dr. Ross explained that they had not been requested to address this area of concern and that his expertise wasn' t related to this item, the Co=missioner was "apalled".
One public member asked if any of you; staff had ever seen a child die from leukemia?
Af ter a rather long pause, Cc=missioner Maullin allowed the question to go unanswered.
At about 5:00 p.m.
it ended, or did it?
The California Energy Commission is now investigating appropriate legal action against NRC if Rancho Seco opens without first holding a public hearing.
Our organization isn' t opposed to a public hearing but le t it be af ter Rancho Seco is on line and producing electricity, if this Commission deems it appropriate.
The authority is yours to s top operation of any nuclear f acility, with due cause.
We feel a public hearing in Sacramento, conducted by NRC, may be in the best interest of the public and our members.
The public who wants to learn, will, and at the same time, they can observe another meeting like SMUD held on April 7.
- However, we would plead that you allow Rancho Seco to resume operation as you have allowed its sis ter plants to resume operation.
If there is sone other reason, advise SMUD and allow whatever adjus tments to be made but please don't allow us to be used as a political 4 :<i-
'0c p loy.
i'UU L,J
California is unique in many ways and we have been a leader in many things.
We will probably lead the nation
- with regularly occurring black-outs.
On June 13 the Northern California area dropped to about a 4% reserve.
We don't need to explain to this Commission the threat regularly occurring black-outs will pose for the health and safety of our citizens and the potential economic disaster.
What faster method could be used to drop'our demand other than scaring business out of the state.
Our hope for enough electricity to see us through the summer is now in your hands and your decision will not just affect Sacramento but all of California.
As three of our five Directors stated at our april 7 meeting, before voting to keep Rancho Seco open, they had f aith in SMUD's staff, they had f aith in the NRC and they had faith in this country.
The whole country will be watching this decision.
Thank you so much for letting me speak.
.D e
s
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