ML030790018
| ML030790018 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Browns Ferry, Watts Bar, Sequoyah  |
| Issue date: | 04/30/2002 |
| From: | Fiser G Tennessee Valley Authority |
| To: | Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation |
| Byrdsong A T | |
| References | |
| +adjud/ruledam200506, 50-259-CIVP, 50-260-CIVP, 50-296-CIVP, 50-327-CIVP, 50-328-CIVP, 50-390-CIVP, ASLBP 01-791-01-CIVP, RAS 6014, TVA-Joint-27 | |
| Download: ML030790018 (86) | |
Text
as-__ oLI f~S 56-396-LIVge&. m-i2hi, 71 Recbd/3o/2 DOCKETED UStHRC I- SEQUENCE OF EVENTS 2003 MAR -4 PM 3: 10 OFFICE t S.iCL IA'.\
RULEMtAINIGS ANID April 15 to 26, 1991: ADJUDICATIONS STAFF INTPO ASSESSMENT OF SEQUOYAH CHEMISTRY PROGRAM After an intensive, two week evaluation by Chemistry experts from the Institute of Nuclear power Operations in Atlanta, it was determined that the Sequoyah Chemistry and Environmental program was being effectively implemented. There were no "Concerns or Findings".
Note: Not only were there no findings this time, but there were no findings in the 1989 INPO site chemistry assessment This was and still is the record for Sequoyah!
April 29, 1991 My direct supervisor, Mr. Bill Lagergren, in a private meeting with me, asked if I would like to be temporarily reassigned to the Outage Management group for the Unit I Cycle 5 (UI C5) outage.
He told me that he felt this was a good way for me to really show what I could do outside the Chemistry area He said that if I did well, that it would open the door for me to advance into other jobs with the company. He warned me however, that if I decided to take the assignment and then performed poorly, that it would result in my being placed back in my job in Chemistry, and that I would rot there.
I decided at that very time, on the spot, to accept the assignment.
Mr. Lagergren then asked me to come up with a plan to cover the position of Chemistry Superintendent while I was in the Outage Management job. I presented him with a plan which consisted of Mr. Rob Richie and Mr. Scott Watson alternating in the position during my absence.
Therefore, from about May 1, 1991 through the end of the UIC5 outage I was not in charge of the Chemistry and Environmental organization at Sequoyah.
NOVEMBER, 1991 WILSON McARTHUR'S PHONE CALL REGARDING CHEMISTRY BEING "OUT OF CONTROL" During the outage, on an evening shift, I was beeped by Vilson McArthur's secretary, Pat Blevins.
She wanted me to call Wilson as soon as possible. Upon calling Wilson, I found that hi was very disturbed by a comment that Mr. Bill Jocher had made to a member of the NSRB. He told me that :-
Bill had told the NSRB that he felt that the Chemistry group at Sequoyah was out of control. I asked what examples Bill had cited as a basis for the statement, and Wilson proceeded to give me some examples.
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I told Wilson that in almost every case Bill was not bringing up anything that had not already been identified. As a matter of fact, I told Mr. McArthur that the list of areas that we (Rob Richie, Scott Watson, Don Adams and I) had developed was much longer and more extensive than the one that Bill had developed.
I went on to tell Mr. McArthur that the fact that there was a list of items to be addressed, even though it was a long list, was no indication that the program was out of control. On the contrary, I pointed out that if there had been no list at all, or had the list not been properly prioritized, then we could be in for some justifiable criticism.
I then offered to provide a list of the corrections we had already implemented, and then we could prove that we had indeed properly prioritized the items. Mr. Wilson then said that would not be necessary, that if we were that screwed up, that INPO would not have given us a good report the last two visits.
DECEMBER, 1991 MR. LAGERGREN'S DISCUSSION WITH ME AFTER THE COMPLETION OF U1C5 At the conclusion of the outage, Mr. Lagergren met with me and told me that I needed to get back to chemistry immediately. He said that Bill Jocher had been stirring up a lot of trouble for the entire Chemistry organization, and that I needed to start straightening it out right away.
At that time Mr. Lagergren suggested that I initiate a request for an INPO assistance visit in order to prove once and for all if there was no merit to Mr. Jocher's claims.
JANUARY, 1992 MEETING WITH ROB RICHIE Rob Richie, had a discussion with me and provided the following information. He said that the problems between Jocher and the Sequoyah chemistry group started because he had offended Jocher. He stated further that the way that he offended him was because he was very busy, and stopped returning Bill's phone calls. This gave Bill the impression that Sequoyah was snubbing him and was going to operate independent of Corporate Chemistry.
After the "sparks settled", the two of them met in an effort to develop a list of areas for improvement. Once Bill saw the length and thoroughness of the list that Sequoyah already had, he told Rob that he wished he had never brought this matter up, and that he had simply worked together with Sequoyah to resolve all the issues.
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-11 I told Rob that he needed to learn that he cannot shut down communications without paying a high price. I further told him that his, and Scott Watson's decision to cut off communications with Corporate Chemistry had presented me with a monumental task to resolve.
TIM MARTIN AND ASSOCIATES REPORT PRESENTED TO TVA The Tim Martin and Associates report indicated that the Chernistry section at Sequoyah was operating very efficiently. The report stated that for the amount of work that the Cheristry group at Sequoyah was accomplishing, when compared to other nuclear plants in their data base, we were getting the job done with 12 fewer people.
FEBRUARY 24-28, 1992: INPO ASSIST VISIT FOR SEQUOYAH CHEMISTRY The following items were brought to the attention of Management by the INPO evaluators:
> Material deficiencies:
40 work requests submitted on chemistry related equipment, some dating back to 1990.
Corrosion on bottom of tanks. Numerous hoses running across floors, presenting trip hazards. Numerous leaks in acid and caustic diluter valves, as well as other valves throughout various plant systems. Some hoses were spraying water into the air. The make-up water treatment plant was specifically pointed out as having numerous deficiencies.
> Chemical Traffic Control:
Several chemicals were noted in the CONDI building that were not properly labeled.
Chemistry was complemented on the procedure that had recently been developed and implemented, and given an action item to add a section to the Managers Walk down procedure to inspect areas for CTC related problems.
> On Line Monitors:
On line monitors are in sad shape. 30 to 40% scatter in some standard data. 35% of the on line monitors were inoperable, indicating they are not getting the attention needed to keep them running. Too much reliance on manpower intensive grab samples. Most chemistry groups are using on line monitors and using the laboratory personnel as a quality control check. Virtually all instrumentation associated with the water treatment plant was not operational.
> Need to perform a metal transport study on unit I and 2. This had been an identified on the chemistry list for some time, and work was well underway when the INPO assist visit took place.
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, - >PWST dissolved oxygen was high. This too has been identified as needing repairs for 9 /years, yet was delayed due to budget constraints.
> Need to trend the analytical instnunent indications, not just the final value. This work too was already in progress.
> Emergency Cooling Water Chlorination System if frequently out of service. This system has a litany of work requests written and outstanding against it.
> The inspector was appalled at the paperwork (1/2 inch thick) associated with a turbine building surnp sample. He mentioned that such a request at other sites was only a page or two in length.
It should be noted that the INPO evaluator sent to perform this assistance visit, Mr. Bill Burke, was the most experienced evaluator working for INPO. He had over 10 years experience evaluating chemistry programs all over the United States and Canada.
I asked Mr. Burke specifically if there was anything that we as a chemistry organization could do to significantly improve our standing. He responded that as far as he could tell we were doing everything we could given the state of equipment and support that we had to work with at Sequoyah. He further stated that until Sequoyah management was willing to invest the dollars to upgrade the equipment, that not improvement was expected.
MARCH 3, 1992: MR. PAT LYDON ARRANGED ROTATION BETWEEN BILL JOCHER AND ME On or about March 2, 1992, I informed Mr. Pat Lydon that Bill Jocher had contacted NRC and questioned them regarding their views regarding certain issued regarding the readiness of the Post Accident Sampling System at Sequoyah. Pat was very upset that Bill had gone over everybodys bead and contacted NRC. Then he made the statement, "I don't see how you are going to survive with Bill running around making accusations at every tum", (paraphrased).
I told Pat that he should inform the Plant Manager, Mr. Rob Beecken, since Rob may be quized by the NRC site inspector regarding this issue.
The Next day, just after the morning Plan of the Day meeting, Pat asked me if I would consider rotating into Jocher's position down town. He said that I had done a good job, and he felt it would be a good opportunity for me.
I told Pat that I had not thought about it, but it would be a good opportunity for me.
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J, Pat told me that he would call Mr. Dan Keuter and work out the details, and get back to me as soon v' as soon as he knew something.
Later that same day, Pat told me that everything was approved by Keuter, and that Bill Jocher and I were to get together and work out the transition.
MARCH 5, 1992, MEETING WITTH MR. JACK WILSON AND MR. ROB BEECKEN As I was descending the stairs in the Sequoyah plant office building, I met Jack wilson, the Sequoyah Site Vice President, and Mr. Rob Beecken, the Sequoyah Plant Manager. Rob started kidding me about taking an easy job downtown. I told him that I was looking forward to it, but that I wanted to make sure that they supported the move, and I asked specifically if they were upset with me in a way. They both responded with enthusiastic support for the change. Rob went on to tell me that I had done an excellent job at Sequoyah and during the outage, and that therefore I d the chance to broaden my horizons. I thanked them for their support and went to my office to begin packing.
MARCH 5, 1992 Bill Jocher and I met to discuss the turnover, and he let me know that he was not pleased with the swap. He said he had no input into the decision, and was concerned that Mr. Beecken was getting
< Jhim out to the plant site in order to exercise more supervisory control over him.
JOE BYNUM LETTER: ATTACHMENT 5 MARCH 6,1992 MEETING WITH WILSON McARTHUR Wilson McArthur arranged to meet with me at Sequoyah, on the morning of March 6. Wilson wanted to lay out some areas where he wanted us to maintain a lot of chemistry oversight and emphasis. They were as follows: corrosion control, hydrogen water chemistry at Browns Ferry, maintaining a corporate chemistry presence at the Ferry, I was to get to know Mr. John Sabados, I was to get a list of outstanding items from Bill Jocher, complete the corporate chemistry business plan, set up daily communications with the sites, make sure the chemistry managers meetings were conducted quarterly, and to work closely with the RadCon manager, Dr. Glenn Hudson.
Wilson went on to tell me that Mr. David Goetcheus had been very outspoken in his opposition to me coming downtown. I asked him why and all he would say was that Mr. Goetcheus was not one of my friends. I expressed my concern, in that Goetcheus was so closely tied to Keuter, but Wilson seemed to think that we could overcome any "bad press" by keeping the communication lines open with both these gentlemen.
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I told Dr. McArther during this meeting that if he ever became dissatisfied with my performance, that all he needed to do was whisper the following to me, "Gary, things just azen-t working out". I told him that if he would simply do that, I would quietly go out and find anotherjob.
Wilson McArthur told me that Mr. Jocher had a meeting with Mr. Keuter. Wilson told me that Jocher told Keuter that "Fiser is not my cup of tea". He further said that when Dan pressed him on the subject, that Bill could provide no specifics.
MARCH 11, 1992 PHONE CALL FROM BILL JOCHER Afler conducting some routine business, Mr. Jocher said that he wanted to clear the air about an issue, and said that he was not trying to stab me in the back the preceding week, by expressing his opposition to management about me coming down town. I told him that I had heard that he had paraded Dr. E.S. Chandrasekaran around from office to office in an attempt to have him installed as the Corporate Chemistry Manager instead of me, and that concerned me. I also mentioned the fact that he had offered to establish Mrs. Martha Rollins as well.
Bill then told me that the only problem he had with me taking over for him was that I did not have any BWR (boiling water plant) experience.
v, JAUGUST 1992 APPRAISAL: ATTACHMENT6 OCTOBER 28, 1992 (APPROXIMATE DATE)
INPO representatives met with members of the TVA Board of Directors and Mr. Oliver Kingsley.
The purpose of the meeting was to inform the Board of all the "findings" (that is to say problem areas) during the recently completed Sequoyah site INPO evaluation. One of the points INPO made was that chemistry resources were limited at Sequoyah. Mr. Waters, Chairman of the Board of Directors, turned to Mr. Kingsley and reminded him of a letter that Mr. Kingsley had sent to him in which Waters was told that there were problems in training, resources, and equipment, and that resources had been commiutted to resolve these problems. Mr. Kingsley then looked at Mr. Waters and said, "Will, I guess I'm in trouble."
Mr. Kingsley then affirmed that chemistry would be fixed, and Mr. Waters said, 'Yes it will."
NOVEMBER 16, 1992 McARTHUR: How much, from your standpoint, with everything that has been going on, do you think it has impacted your ability to do things at work, in your own mind? I know in my mind when I worry about my mother, and I haven't even gone to see her. The guys, your guys, other than 6
Adam's who never really talks to me, Chandra and Sam, although Chandra, what he was asking for O today, he says "Wilson, what do I need to do in this organization to be recognized if some day later there is a RadCon/Chemistry position at one of the sites that I could qualify for that position?"
I told him that I do not know a lot about your radcon background, I know your chemistry background. It is something definitely we can talk about He was looking for some advice on how to get ahead.
The guys feel that you are not communicating with them.
FISER. OK McARTHUR: And, in the same vein, I was out talking to Rob Beecken, and I said Rob we've got this transition coming back here very shortly, maybe 3 months from now, maybe 6 months from now, we don't know, but at some point in time. And he just made it very clear that you were not going back to Sequoyah.
FISER: Really!
McARTHUR: He made it clear to me. In fact he said that he will not be coming back into chemistry. Then he said, "Well I guess I could put him back in outage management", then he said,
<2J '"No, I don't want to have him back here".
I'm just, I'm probably violating his confidence, rm just telling you, I believe in shooting straight, and I get criticized for doing this.
FISER: Well, O.K so Rob has made that kind of a statement McARTHlUR: Yea4, he made it very clear to me, and that means that we've got to figure out what to do with you when Jocher comes back here.
FISER: Well what do you..
McARTHUR: I can't tell you why. He did not elaborate, he did not get into a discussion. I really believ'e, ITll give you my frank opinion based on nothing.
FISER: Yeah.
McARTHUR: O.K. Just a gut feeling, that the problems in the chemistry program are being blamed on Gary Fiser. That's my gut feeling. Boy, if you asked me to prove it, I'd have no basis for it.
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FISER Well, you see that's sort of where I feel we are with Keuter, but I ...
McARTHUR. I talked to Joe about it, and I teh yo the feeling is just pretty well bound as far as Keuter and Joe is concerned, and I said well, you know, we made a commitment to return this guy to the site. And I was first of all told, "Wilson, you can't even talk about this to him."
And, I said hay, I'm not going to play the game like that So finally Joe gave in and said, well..I asked his permission this morning, I said, "This guy has to understand where he stands."
FISER: Yeah.
McARTHUR: But not shoot somebody...and I had to battle to even do that. I expect that the time would have come and somebody would have said, will you are not going back to the site, and I just don't feel that way. I wish I could tell you, you are going back to the site. I have no basis to say you should not go back to the site.
I know that from a corporate standpoint, the vote is not very strong. So rm having to look at that very strong and say now how do we handle that FISER. Always I have told you that if...
McARTHUR: By the way, I really hate having this discussion after what you have been through. I don't want 1992 to be even worse than it is. I hope you understand that I'm the guy that is honest and open, and I'll tell you directly how things are.
FISER: First of all, I guess I really have a problem with the fact that anybody would even think that the chemnistry problems were my problems, because you know what INPO has said and you know what NUS has said. In addition to that, come April I would have been out of chemistry for two years, at Sequoyah. So how in the world can they...
McARTHUR: I'm not even saying that's real, I don't even know everything between...
FISER: It just sounds to me like...
McARTHUR: You see, Bill Logergren has never, I, I even talked to him, and he said (a107)"Hey, I think the guy"...He said the same thing you did, "We didn't have any INPO findings, and things looked pretty good, and I have no complaints".
FISER Right!
McARTHUR. It may be that he is being impacted by others.
FISER The only thing I can figure out is, you know, I don't know what Jocher has been telling Beecken, I don't know what Jocher has been telling Lydon.
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McARTHUR: Jocher is not your friend.
F1SER: Iknowthat!
McARTHUR: O.K FISER: I feel like what I need to do is get my resume' up to date and get on out of here. I really don't feel that there is any option.
McARTHUR: One thing I will do, if that is what you decide to do after we finish our discussion, I would support you. I would tell others..I don't have any basis to tell others that you are the one that messed up chemistry. I think what happened to chemistry, my own opinion is that money wasn't available, and a lot of things didn't happen, and you survived.
FISER Right. Well that's it, and I got by and we did well, but then you see we had Jocher. When I pulled out of chemistry, and Jocher had a real riff with Rob and Scott, and started elevating all this. And since then he has made statements like, even with the NSRB just the other day he said, "You know after getting out here and looking at things, things are not really as bad as what I thought." Do you recall him saying that?
& McARTHUR: Yes.
FISER You see, so I got this elevated...
McARTHUR: He also did his own self a disservice, he went out and said we've got a hundred and something procedures that are shot.
FISER. I know.
McARTHUR: And I believed him, and I went to...I even screwed myself up, I...reported that we've got to rewrite procedures, probably four years to rewrite the procedures, and then when it really got down to it, we were talking about 12 procedures.
FISER. And they really were not wrong, they were just...
McARTHUR: Heavy, cumbersome, whatever you want to call it FISER: So you see, he has done that about a lot of things, and he has done that about me. And it is a great disservice to me and to the work that Don and I did when we were out there. But I'm telling you..
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McARTHUR: How does Don feel about all this?
FISER: Well you have got a problem, I say you, we have got a problem with Betsy not wanting to work for him, but you've got another problem with Don not wanting to work for him, and you've got another problem because there is a lot of people at Sequoyah not wanting to work for him, or with him. Period! And yet the only thing... He's really got Keuter's ear, he's really got apparently Bynum's ear...
McARTHUR: He called me the other day, and my phone was messed up and he talked to Keuter.
FISER: Who did?
McARTHUR. Bill did. Bill was trying to get hold of me last night and I, my phone...
FISER: For what?
McARTHUR: They are thinking about having a RadCon Chemistry position out at Sequoyah.
FISER: Yeah, I know that.
McARTHUR: Keuter is very much against it, and Rob Beecken is very much in favor of it, but he is saying I don't want my plate too filled up, and if you have the chemistry guy reporting to me I J won't be able to do any good. And he may have a point. So he is saying I want to have aRadCon Chemistry guy, and I'm recommending that Charles Kent be that guy.
FISER: He may, he may, but if we do that we haven't done chemistry any favors. I mean we haven't helped them out. We've said that they have been buried under Ops, well not they are going to be buried under RadCon. So I don't see any net gain at all for chemistry if you do that Thafs just my opinion.
McARTHUR: Well I think Charles Kent's comment to me was, I don't think it is the time to do it, but as a good employee, if someone tells me to do it, Ill do it.
FISER: Well I don't know what's gone wrong, now I talked to Rob Beecken and I talked to Jack Wilson in the stairwell at Sequoyah when I was getting ready to leave, and I said Guys, is there anything...you know rm going to go downtown..I want to make sure that you guys are not upset with anything. And both of them looked at me and said, "Gary there is absolutely no problem, we are very proud of what you have done, we want you to get downtown, we want you to get some other experience, broaden your horizons, and lets let Jocher come out here and see if he can do anything." Now that is what they told me. Now either they have misrepresented the facts, or what I feel like has happened is that they have been getting one side of the story, and believing it. Just like you did, and just like Keuter did.
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McARTHUR: You see the goal right now is to put Sam Harvey out there. That's who they want to have out there to replace Bill Jocher.(al34a) That's kind of...that's more Keuter and Joe's opinion.
Now if I had to pick somebody, if you were not going back out there, I'd probably say that Sam could do a good job, but he just doesn't have the managerial experience. He has some reasonably good technical experience, but not enough managerial experience. I guess if I had my own real preference, I'd say that I'd really want to think about that one.
FISER: You see, even if you put Gary Fiser out there, and if Ive got a Corporate organization that really supports, like I have done them, if they would return that favor, we'd do fine. I mean its hard when you are taking on everybody, including your corporate support organization, and trying to run an program at the same time. That's difficult!
Well I think what I will do...the only thing I have done, the only thing I am guilty of, is them giving me a package, and me taking it and running with it and doing the absolute best that I could, which was top notch, according to everyone before Jocher came here.
McARTHUR You are talking about out at Sequoyah?
FISER: Yes. So I have been rewarded for that very handsomely recently haven't I?
McARTHUR: Yeah.
FISER: Yeah.
McARTHUR: I don't know what, Gary I wish I could tell you why I would get that comment I really can't tell you, because nobody has come to me and said well here is the reasons we don't want Gary back out here. Maybe they feel like they don't owe it to you.
FISER. Maybe I've been out there for so long that they want me to find something else.
McARTHUR: What's your relationship with Goetcheus, does he support you?
FISER: I tust him as far as I can throw a pregnant elephant.
McARTHUR: Yeah.
FISER: You know how far I can throw one don't you? I'm telling you, I feel like he is really dangerous. That's what I feel like, particularly after what he did and said whenever the rotation was announced. I don't have any use for him at all.
Now, do you think he is making a play for chemistry downtown, with NUS?
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McARTHUR: Sure he is. I'm sure he is making a play for it.
FISER: Well I see that as a possibility, and I see also as a possibility if they combine RadCon at the site, put chemistry under RadCon, that they could do the same thing down here. Either one of those scenarios, Jocher's gone.
McARTHUR: That's the way it used to be, we used to have RadCon and chemistry downtown.
That's when Barker was here.
FISER: But you do that and Jocher, you know he will never work for Glenn, and he will never work for Kent.
McARTHUR: Yeah.
FISER: That's the way I see it.
McARTHUR: Why do you think you are on the outs with those people out at the site? I don't want to put you on the...I don't want to have you running and saying...
FISER: I wish I knew. I wish I knew, I really do. I wish I knewwhy I was on the outs with Keuter. Why did he select me as the...
McARTHUR: He was very strongly in favor of you coming down and getting a chance downtown.
He was strongly in favor of that.
FISER: Yeah?
McARTHUR: Jocher came down and personal visit with him, and told him that you were not the guy to come downtown. I was setting in that meeting, and he was very strongly opposed to you coming downtown. And Keuter looked beyond that, and said well well give the guy a chance.
Now what are the reports that he gets back? I don't know all of his channels, maybe his channels are Joe Bynum, I don't know, but whatever reports he gets back are never very strong reports. In fact, which I did in your appraisal, but I also told Keuter, you have a very difficult assignment FISER: Yeah, I did.
McARTIUR: To somehow get Harvey and Chandra on your side, so that was, from my standpoint was an impossible effort. You know I don't care who had been in there, they would not have been successful.
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FISER. The allegiance there is so strong it will never be broken. I've tried to live with it, and to 9' make the very best use of it that I can. And I feel like we have. We have supported Bill, we have supported the sites, we have supported Brown's Ferry, Watts Bar, and yet I'm in trouble, and I don't understand that. I'm sure you dont..
McARTHUR: Listen, I guess they feel, like for example Sam and Chandra, they feel like they just go their own direction. Their comments to...and a lot of this comes back through Bill...he'll call me and say Wilson, can't you get Gary to give these guys more direction. He says they feel like they are just floundering...so now they just go their on merry way. They just do their on thing.
FISER: My direction has been, dad blame it, to support Bill, and to support John, to support the sites and to get them the help that they need to run a top notch chemistry program. And that is what we have done. Anytime Bill has asked for them he has gotten them. It might have not been on the timetable that he was looking for, but it was dam close to it. I feel like we are support Now in addition to that we are oversight. And they do it. We do it, we do oversight. We take the pulse, we do the assessment, and we know where they stand. And we were not surprised by anything.
McARTHUR: How do you measure your guys, lets talk about each one of them. Adams first, then Chandra, Sam and Betsy.
FISER: Chandra first, he's got a pretty strong educational background, you can't deny that. He knows a lot about resin. I don't see him as being...He is thorough, he does a good job. I don't see
, him as being absolutely outstanding. I see him as a good, solid man with the technical background to do the job if you give him the time, and we make sure he has the time.
McARTHUR. Now this is Sam?
FISER: No, this is Chandra.
McARTHUR: Oh, Chandra. Chandra, it is very obvious today he do not know where his next place is, and he wants to get ahead. And he seems to be, he is not laid back, he is just kind of quiet type.
FISER: Oh, yes. Well he is a lot like me. He is kind of laid back.
McARTHUR: 1I7l tell you one thing I've found out about TVA Gary, is that the laid back individual has a tough time.
FISER. Oh yeah, he does.
McARTHUR: Holbert Harper is a good example, he is a laid back guy, he is not aggressive, and his management beats him to death over that 13
FISER: Well you know I discussed that pretty extensively with the shrink, and I told him that that's the way I felt, that I felt like that the fact that you could get the job done is one thing, but that it does not count near as much as the aggressive person that is presenting himself well.
McARTHUR I can tell you that, they will end upwalking all over you.
FISER: And I asked him specifically to point out ways that I could benefit McARTHUR: Did he give you any help?
FISER. No, but he is going to work on it and get back with me, so he says.
But it is one thing to run a good program, its one thing to support the sites, its one thing to get the job done, but it is another thing to demand the recognition to get yourself in the limelight That seems to be what it takes.
Now, your not that way either, you know I'm surprised that you are doing all that well.
McARTHUR: Well Kingsley beats on me, he says you are too soft But I believe in giving people a chance, if they are doing their job, you know you are not going to get a 10 out of 10 out of everybody. You are going to have some 8's and 7s in there, you can't get down to S's and 4's, you've got to have top notch people doing it If somebody would let us run our program ourselves, without telling us how to run it I think we'd do a lot better.
FISER. What would have helped would have been if Jocher had just come out there like I've done and get with you and say these are the things I see, lets fix them..
McARTHUR: Jocher has just created a situation where he just won't communicate with you. I know what's happened.
FISER Yeah, and he will not!
McARTHUR: That's just Bill's way of doing things.
FISER: What he wants to do is come back and save the day. I know it.
McARTHUR: Oh yeah.
FISER: I know that's what he has got in mind.
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McARTHUR: Keuter said when he talked to him last night, he said, "Man, every time I talk to, its different, he's changed his mind about something". That's typical of the guy.
FISER: He's got Keuter eating out of his hand, you know that. The guy is good. He presents himself well, it doesn't matter ifhe has got the facts, it doesn't matter if he presents them truthfully.
(NOTE: At this time we entered Wilson's house and he took care of some personal business)
(a2OOa)
FISER O.K, so I've done a lot of talking, so what advice do you have for me? I don't know what to do, other than leave.
McARTHUR Well. I know one thing I'm going to do, in talking with Dan Keuter, and with Joe Bynum. One thing we need to do is someone is going to have to lead the organization, and I think right now the chemistry organization, you need to spend time either finding out what you are going to do within the company or looking for a job or something like that. I believe, and we need to discuss this, I believe we ought to take you out of that position, and put you in as a Project Manager, and put Sam Harvey or Chandra or somebody in there acting until Bill comes back. I really believe this will make sense to give you time to do something, because right now it is not effective. O.K., its not going to be effective because I don't think you have the backing that you need to get it done. I'm talking about management, and everything. That's my belief. I think it would be to your advantage to decide if you are going to find something else within TVA or, because you can't stay in that position because Jocher is going to come back to that position. OK.,
that's an obvious thing. I assume that is what is going to happen, and either find something in TVA or find something outside. That's my advice, OK. I think that would be the best thing for you, because...and it, you know, you are going to take it on the chin because its going to say that I failed as the corporate guy.
But I don't look at it that way.
FISER: I was going to say, man if there is anyway you could see around that I would like to...
McARTHUR: Well that's the suggestion that I'm getting from Dan and from Joe Bynum. They feel that the direction is not there, I don't know who is talking to who,...I'm not covering up here either,...
FISER: Well I think we know who is talking to who, don't you think we know? Really?
McARTHUR: You know, I always think I know.
FISER: Well you have told me before that Jocher would go in there...
15
McARTHUR: Well he talks to Joe, but Sabados talks to Joe too, they all cause different types of problems and everything, but I don't know if you have any feelings about going to INPO, or trying something like that. A lot of different things that we can do.
I don't want you, I know you have gone through a heck of a lot just with your family, and its got nothing to do with work, but to me it does have something to do with work.
FISER. Well, it's been difficult, but again, hammering on the point that when the sites squeal, we respond. We've done the assessments, we've done the ORR's, we've done all those type things to make sure we are right the way we call the shots. I don't know, I don't feel like there is anything...
McARTHUR: The direction I'm getting is, I've got to cure a chemistry problem. -
FISER: At Sequoyah?
McARTHUR: At both, everything. Chemistry in general, and I've got to have a guy...You see INve got a basic problem, in that Joe, O.K., if you've got Jocher coming back, and he does not get along with Sabados, I can't have that.
FISER: He absolutely does not McARTHUR: So then I've got a real problem then, I dont..
FISER: Well you've got that, but you've also got Jocher coming back and he does not get along with Larry Jackson, or the Watts Bar people at alL McARTHUR: Yeah I know. Jocher may be digging his own grave, I don't know. Thats the reason I figure I've got a little bit of time here to evaluate and determine if be...and I told him the other day that, "You have got to be able to work out your disagreements and differences with both of these guys, including who goes out to the site, if it is Sam Harvey, or whoever. You have to be able to work with those guys." And I'm not sure that's a possibility.
FISER: I'm telling you that he and Sam, on the surface they get along, but there is a real rivalry there. I don't know how many times I've told Sam, "Now look, you've got to settle down, you can't be making these caustic statements behind Bill's back, at a high level. I don't know what he did with the shrink the other day, but if it was anything close to what he said he did, then I don't see how we can keep him.
McARTHUR: Do you want me to tell you what the shrink told me?
FISER: Yeah.
16
McARTHUR: Very positive on Sam Harvey, and he said it was like you were not even there.
FISER: Me?
McARTHUR: I don't have any idea, I don't know if he even talked to you, did he, he did talk to you didnt..
FISER: Yeah, he did.
McARTHUR: He said it was like Gary is not here. I'm just telling you what, and I was stunned by his comment though. I did not know how to respond to that. I said what do you mean. And he said it was like everybody goes and does their own thing, and they don't have a leader. This is the psychologists talking. That was his words.
FISER: O.K., so he got that out of Sam.
McARTHUR: I don't know, when he hit me with that, I said this goes directly up to my management. That was his comment, he said it was like he was not there.
FISER: Well, I would ask you to be a little patient, give me some time and let me see what I can work out, because I don't see how, without the support downtown, and without...
McARTHUR: I know it must be disheartening to you.
FISER: It is, especially after...
McARTHUR: I give you permission to talk to talk to anybody you want to, but I can guarantee you that what I am telling you is pretty well set in..A wouldn't have this discussion with you if I hadn't...I made an appointment and set down and talked with Joe, I talked with Dan, I talked with Beecken. I think the thing that really set it off was when Rob said...his first comment was, well I said very shortly Gary is going to be back out here. He says, "No," he says, "well I guess I could put him in Outage Management," then he says "No, I don't want him out here at all." That was his exact words. Now if you tell him that I'll be ticked off, because you have to know the whole story, you can't do, you can't make up your mind what you are going to do. You need to have that in your thinking cap.(a239)
I asked him at that point, I said what is it that is a problem? He said, "Well I just had some discussions with Jack and Joe and I think this is best for Sequoyah." And they are going through a lot of that right now, with Pat Lydon going away, with Jack Wilson going away, others. There are a number of people. There is some more going away after this morning.
17
I FISER. I wish they had been a little more straight forward. The biggest mistake I ever made was going to Outage Management, because that's when.;.
McARTHIUR There are only complements from.AI'll tell you, when I talked to Joe he said you did a good job in outage management, and I mentioned this to Dan Keuter, I said, "Dan, remember the guy has been out of Sequoyah chemistry organization for", I couldn't remember exactly the time, I said, "a year of that was in outage management, and my understanding is he did very well". And he said, "Did you check that out thoroughly?". I said, "No, because Joe told me, you know, if Joe tells me something I don't go check it out thoroughly."
FISER. And Bill. The only question I have is did Keuter check it out. I mean, good gosh!
McARTHUR: But here we are, there is too much of it all together. If it was Jocher, and if Beecken was supportive, one of those kind of things...
FISER: Well I'm not too surprised about Beecken turning, because you've got Jocher out there for a year, and I think they were pretty close, although Pat specifically came to me and said, "This is ridiculous, this guy won't leave you alone, be won't reason, he is totally out of control, why don't we just put you downtown and put him out here, and tell him to put up or shut up." Basically, that is what he said. You realize that there are a lot of people out at Sequoyah that...
McARTHUR: I understand ifyou... go ahead, Oh, go ahead..
FISER: There are a lot of people out at Sequoyah that are working for him that have suits in on him.
McARTHUR: I understand. And I understand that he made the recommendation, I don't know who, but to Rob Beecken that he take some of the shift supervisors out of their positions. And by the way, we need to get some movement on this. Beecken, and Jack Wilson, and human resources says,"no, we can't do it, it doesn't work that way. What we can do, is do like we did with the electricians, we can take those people and tell them that we are not doing well, and come up with a corrective action plan. But Bill doesn't like that, I guess these guys are his enemies, I suppose.
FISER: Well, McARTHUR: You probably know who they are, and I dont. But he feels pretty strongly about making those changes, and Sam supports that.
FISER: Oh yeah.
16
McARTHUR: And they-have talked about it enough, and both of them know who those people are.
And their recommendation was to take them out and go find a career someplace else, and bring in some other people.
FISER: I had a discussion with Chandra last week, to which he was just pretty much amazed at what all we had been through, the corrections that we had made, and the politics bit. I feel like what I would like to do is have a chance to meet with..and really it is a slant on Don Adams and I both.
McARTHUR: Is it on Don, I didn't, somehow I don't..
FISER: Oh yeah. Just maybe to allow us to go in and just talk and answer questions and clear up perceptions with Keuter.
I've got a standing offer from, I don't mean an offer...the guy that did our INPO assessment visit, Bill Burke, has been wanting to swap positions with me, as a trade...
McARTHURI Really.
FISER: ...for some time now. I told him that I really didn't want to, that I wanted to get this experience in corporate. So that is an avenue we could pursue, and I think get a resolution fairly quickly. Also, I may just look at going down there permanently, because I don't know what kind it> of...
McARTHUR: Do you know Bates and those people, who is the key chemistry guy down there?
FISER: Bates would be probably the one that I would talk to. I could pursue that, I would just really appreciate it, as a personal favor if you would let me try to work something out. If you put Chandra, or Don, or Sam in charge, that would just be...
McARTHUR: I may not have any choice.
FISER Well if you do, just give me some time, Ill work something out.
McARTHUR. OK.
FISER: For sure. Talk to me before you do anything.
McARTHUR: OK.
19
FISER: Because that is a personal insult I would like to avoid. It is really unfortunate that it has 2 progressed ...I feel like the guys at Sequoyah were not up front with me to tell you the truth. But I feel like we could resolve it, but I'm not sure that is what they want.
McARTHLUR: I wish I could help you there, but I don't know why that position..1 told both Joe and Dan that I am going to sit doun with Gary and have a serious talk with him, and they said, well I want you to make this transition as fast as you can. But I'm willing to work out something here.
FISER: I would appreciate it if you could help me out here. As soon as I get back to the office, let me make a phone call.
McARTHUR: O.K.
FISER: I don't know what the shrink was talking about, I was very depressed, I had been depressed ever since Keuter decided I wasn't worthy of a raise after what all we did.
McARTHJR: Keuter made that decision independently.
FISER: I know.
McARTHUR: I can tell you that very...I shouldn't tell you that kind of thing what L..
b FISER: Well I know it wasn't you.
McARTHUR. Well he made it very.. he just said...at one point in time we were ranking people...and he said, "I want to put Gary Fiser on no increase". I said, "Why, we haven t ..-that's not the way you were, we had evaluated things". At that point he said, "That is my decision". That was the end of the discussion. I'm learning at TVA that, and I told Chandra that today, I said, "Chandra, you've got to recognize something", he was saying, "I've noticed that all the time Sam Harvey is sending copies of his research papers, and publications to senior management, and stuff like that", and I said, "Well, that's because he is a politician, and you are not, and to be quite fank with you, at TVA that is not an unwise thing to do".
FISER: Yeah.
McARTHUR: I hate to tell you that, I think that is so improper, to have to sell yourself to somebody, and not going to the credit, and value of your works. And he said, "I understand". I said, "Chandra, whenever you get enough chance, my opinion to you is whenever you go by Joe Bynum's office, and he waves at you, step in and talk to him.
FISER: Well, gee Wilson, I mean...
20
o> McARTHUR: What I am proposing, Gary, is very shortly we are going to have Jocher coming back here, three to six months, that will be up to Sequoyah and Rob Beecken telling me that's agreeable to him, I've committed to him staying there until he gets us going, put Sam Harvey in charge of corporate chemistry, and put you in his position, until such time as you decide exactly what you want to do. That is what I am proposing. If you want to take the time to work that out someway, I don't know best to do it, but I know that is what management wants me to do. They are very supportive of that move. You are going to look at it as a shot in the face.
FISER: Oh yeah, well it is. You can't look at it any other way, and I just wish that there was something that I could point to where I had failed, I just don't feel like I have, I don't feel like I failed at Sequoyah, I dont feel like I failed in outage management, I don't feel like I failed downtown..
McARTHUR: Maybe it is the observation of many things coming together, I guess. I don't know, I'm setting here, I'm kind of at a loss for words myself, because I like to be able to tell a guy...
FISER: Yeah, they screwed up.
McARTHIJR ...I put you in that position, here is the ten reasons...
FISER: Which is what I had asked you to do, so I feel like that I know where it is coming fiom.
U> McARTHUR: Well, I hate to put the burden on other people, rm the guy in this position, and I'm the guy that is having to tell you, so I guess, if I had a bottom line it would be that it hasn't been effective, and it hasn't been effective because I don't think you have got the support that you need...
FISER: That's right.
McARTHUR: ...to do what you have...that, that's pretty much a slant on Chandra and Sam Harvey, and Bill Jocher's face, but you know, look at management, what is management going to support, if they came back to say we were going to only keep Bill Jocher or Gary Fiser, what do you think they are going to say? Be quite frank with me, what would you say? We are going to keep one of those two guys, what would they say?
Bill has won the political battle, whatever you say.
FISER: Oh he has. He is an absolute master at it.
McARTHUR: What I think the best to do is, think about it, I'm going to be in hay tomorrow, but lets you and I talk when I get back. Put this in your mind.
FISER: Let me do some phone calling, and see what I can do, O.?
21
McARTHUR OK.
FISER: ...and I will try to work something out.
McARTHLJR: Do you want to talk to Dan? I don't have any problem. But you are going to put him on the spot, but that's O.K.
FISER. Well...
McARTHUR: I wouldn't talk to you if they didnt..
FISER: Well, what do you, you know we've got INPO, they came in here and they said, "Guys, chemistry, at Sequoyah, is doing about all chemistry can do. The problem is that they haven't got the support, the money, the funding to get the upgrades that they need to run a top notch chemistry program, and we are tired of hearing it. So what do you do, I mean, they made that statement, according to Bill Jocher, they made that statement, "Hay, you guys are doing about all you can do".
And I'm still in trouble.
McARTHlTR Do you know when the downhill slide started on you? What Tom Peterson and Tom McGrath said in your office that day. I don't know what happened.
FISER. I do.
McARTHUR: Well you know and I dont. When I walked out of that meeting, Tom McGrath said, "We can't have this guy in the Sequoyah chemistry position".- Tom Peterson said the same thing, and I'm saying to myself, what happened in there that I did not see?
FISER: Well, I'll tell you what happened, they put, you see when I was gone again, they stopped generating the daily trend plots, that I started when I got back. But Peterson was wanting me to put in writing, in a procedure, that I would turn those things out every day, 50 something plots. And I said, I can't do that, I mean that's weekends, that's holidays. I said, "We come in on Mondays, it takes a full day to get all the data in because of the antiquated way we have to put it in", I said, "You are asking me to do something that is impossible, I am doomed to failure, I cannot do that".
And I called INPO later, and I said "Guys, I want to make sure that I am not wrong, this is what they asked me to do, and they laughed, and they said, "At the very most, people would printout an RCS iodine dose equivalent, and a feedwater catcon number, that's it on a daily bases". That would be fine, but the guy, he does not know chemistry.
McARTHUR: Did you recognize that they felt that strongly?
FISER: No.
22
McARTHUR- They openly said it in the NSRB meeting, Tom McGrath said that we have a Chemistry Manager at Sequoyah that is not effective. Now it was just that clear.
FISER: That's because they don't know anything about chemistry, and they did not know the full impact of what they were demanding.
McARTHIUR. Well I didn't appreciate the way Peterson handled it, I don't like any outside consultant to...He did the same thing, tried to do the same thing to John Corey down at...That one I was enough involved in, and you hadn't been here very long when this took place, and I was saying to myself, "What do you guys know about this guy that I don't know".
FISER: Well, that's true, but that is because they did not understand what they were asking me to do, and that it was impossible, and that it was a ticket to failure. Now to reinstated the plots, I had already done that. That's why again I say, If I had never gone to outage management, Bill Jocher and I could get along, we could work things out, and we would have addressed it.
McARTHUR: It will teach you something about the guys at the plant, it difficult to within a company like this to take another position, and try to come back to a position. Because, anything that happens that goes wrong, you get blamed for it. I would not accept at TVA any temporary position. Well I did, I took Keuter's position for a while, and that was...
FISER: We even had Bill Jocher come out there and, after he finally set down and started talking to Rob Richie, and he said, "Gosh I wish I had known this, if I had already known that you all had already had these things identified and were working on them, I would have never elevated it to the to the level that I did".
I'm the one that is in trouble, and I feel that I got in trouble when I wasn't even there.
McARTHUR: I agree, its probably...I owe you, I feel like in this case, I wish there was a way I could help you. The only thing I can do, I can put you in a position to see that you get ajob with TVA. And I've had to fight that FISER: Isnt that ridiculous?
McARTHUR: I did get the agreement to say O.K., if you put him in a Project management position, nobody is going to ask him to leave the company. That wasn't easy, that is all I can say.
What has been your employee appraisals out at Sequoyah?
FISER: I get bonuses, before I came downtown.
23
a McARTHUR: Do you get bonuses each time?
FISER: Yeah. You see there is something that doesn't jive here, does it? Ask-Logergren.
McARTHUR: You know the thing that happened to the chemistry program at Sequoyah, because it did get into a period of rapid decline, a lot of personnel problems and that kind of thing, a lack of attention to training. What would you say is, Oliver Kinglsey came into my office today, what would you say is the reason the chemistry program is slipping at Sequoyah?
FISER The rapid decline started when..
McARTHUR: when they cut back on training...
FISER: ...well that, but when Bill Jocher started going off half cocked, and he didn't have all the facts. That's the rapid decline. Of course, the thing with Peterson didn't help, you've got a guy out there that would not listen. He did not realize the impact on chemistry.
FISER. I guess that's why Jocher told me that he was going to come back downtown quickly.(b23a)
McARTHUR: No, that one I did not understand. He started a couple of rumors that were way off base. He just called me one day and said, I guess he got to feeling that there was some criticism in
>)the corrective action program. The NSRB did give him a rough time. They told him he did not have everything together, he did not have his act together, he needed to put it all in one place, and get to leading these guys...and I think he got to feeling that in order to save my bacon, I better get on back downtown, and get Sam out here. That was the feeling I had, but then I was faced with, I've got Gary there, I can't put him back out at Sequoyah, what do I do? And Im not one, rm not going to send you out on the street, I'm not going to do that. I would not do that, first of all because it is not fair...so that's why I came over to the thinking that I would just put you in that position. If you could work something with INPO, that might even be better.
I want whatever happens here, I want you and I to end up being friends.
FISER: Yeah, I just hope I have not let you down.
McARTHUR: I don't, I feel you have been, that's what I said in the employee...I hated to write it the way I did. It was toughl, because that was saying, I can't win.
FISER: It was impossible.
McARTHUR: Yeah. I wish, at the very beginning, that you and I had a chance to sit down and talk, before everything happened.
24
FISER: It was quick. It was because Pat and Beecken were so fnistrated with Jocher. And Jocher...they were just wanted him to come out here.
McARTHUR: I think that was probably the wrong move.
FISER It was for me. But who knows, maybe it will work out.
McARTHUR: This is a perception thing Gary. It's just like the same thing I went through this morning vuth Holbert Harper..There is a perception, and it is not going to change. Joe finally said, "you know this guy could work his buns off for the next six months, still on probation, and there is no way he could win".(b48a)
FISER: And I'm probably in the same boat. But I don't see how you survive, I really don't. You are straight forward, you are honest, how can you make it downtown? How do you survive?
McARTHUR: A few people ask me that,...and sometimes I have got myself in what might be a key position, like placing me in Keuter's position...I'm sure the reason I didn't get it was because rm a nice guy. I'm telling you that's probably the reason I didn't get that position, more than anything else. I stepped back and I said "Gee, that's too bad".
FISER: I feel like that's where I am. It has been a hard year.
McARTHUR: But you see I should have been in that position. I have no question in my mind that is where I should have been... am thought of by Kingsley as being a nice guy, too soft.
Technically competent, but soft But I don't care, that's meIrd rather be that way. rd rather have somebody evaluate me that way.
FISER. Does Lagergren know anything about this?
McARTHUR: I don' think he does.(b57a)
FISER: Not that it will help, but I want to talk to him. Keuter is out of the picture, but I would like to talk to Joe and just make sure hasn't been mislead, not that it will help me any...because he was my supervisor, and he evaluated me, and I have a lot of respect for...
McARTHUR: Did he do an evaluation where you have it on record?
FISER: Yeah.
- McARTHUR: Well hang on to that.
25
iJ 9 FISER: I talked to him a little bit about it last week. He said he did not understand it, but he said I think you know how I feel about you, because, you know that you always got a bonus.
McARTHUR. I think that when you went to outage management, you cut off your ties with chemistry, and things went downhill...
FISER. ...a riff developed between Scott, Rob and Jocher. He subsequently apologized for that and said that if I had stayed we could have worked it out. I really believe that, because if he cant get along with me, he can't get along with anybody.
McARTHUR: That's a possibility, but I think, like I say, when you left there things didn't improve, things went downhill, and Jocher was in a position to heat it up, that's why when you camne back you were right in the middle of a fight.
FISER: Live ammunition too!
McARTHUR. Well, you think about it tonight and talk to me in the moming.(b7la)
NOVEIMBER 16,1992 Mr. Bill Lagergren told me that he knew that TVA was going to get rid of Bill Jocher. I told Mr.
Lagergren that Wilson McArthur had told me that Beecken said that he did not want me back at zŽ~- Sequoyah. Bill was very surprised to hear that news, and asked me if Rob had talked to me about it I told him that he had never said anything to me about it, that I had never heard anything derogatory from him. Bill then reaffirmed that he was very pleased with my performance and stated that the proof was in the bonuses that I had received while working for him. He said that he felt that Jocher was talking to Beecken, and giving him a one sided and biased opinion of the past performance of the chemistry group.
Bill then said that he was going to talk to Beecken and find out what was going on, and when he knew something he would get back with me.
NOVEMBER 17,1992, 1530 I called Mr. McArthur and told him that Mr. Bill Burke with INPO was very interested in a reverse loan arrangement with me.
NOVEMBER 18,1993 FISER: I am talking to Ben, to see if there is something. I just feel like, as long as those two guys are around, that I don't have any business being in chemistry. If they are not willing to work, they 26
are not up front, they are not honest, they will not come to you if there is a problem, they run if around you to Keuter...
McARTHUR: I agree that it is not a good situation at all.
FISER So I want to get out of chemistry, and INPO is a real opportunity at getting out of here.
McARTHUR. It is unfortunate that we are in the situation that we are in.
FISER Yes sir.
McARTHUR: The reality is before our very eyes. You know the thing that really worries me, I was in the elevator with Marie, and I 'said "Marie, there is so many things going on around here, you never know who is going to be next.
FISER: Well, I am concerned about you, because your demeanor, and your actions are a very close to mine, in the way you treat people.
McARTHUR: But I am going to stay that way.
FISER: Well, I am too! But I do want to listen, and if there are ways I can improve, I want to do it.
But I don't want it like this, when you find out after it is too late! (b89a) a McARTHUR: Yeah.
FISER: Ben got into a few specifics with me about the meeting he had with you and Keuter, whenever Keuter made his decision that he was not going to allow me to get a raise.
McARTHUR: Oh yeah. You were high up on the list, I don't know if Ben told you or not.
FISER: But he just confirmed what you had already told me.
McARTHUR. Really we should not tell you these kind of things, but you have got to tell somebody something.
FISER: That helps, that at least tells me that somebody thought I was worth my salt.
McARTHUlt I was actually surprised at the comment, and I cannot tell you why he decided that (b9Sa) That is part of the problem. I always hate for somebody to get the news and say, well what is Keuter upset about?" I don't know.
27
I
{. ) FISER Again, he was in a pretty rough position, because suddenly, afier we did the evaluations, O and ranked everybody, Kinglsey puts the word out, "Oh, by the way, 10% or 12%, whatever it was, are not going to get raises. Figure out who it is and let me know". So here is Keuter, is he going to bust a person like Ronnie Kitts, and give me a raise, when I am temporary.
McARTHUR: I never thought about it that way. You are more familiar with TVA then I am, my mind doesn't think that way.
FISER: He was in a tough position, that ODK put him in.
McARTHUR: Keep me up to date on what is going on.
FISER: This is an immediate out, all it takes here is a letter. The only thing I'm holding back for is talking to...
McARTHUR: Should I talk to licensing, or do you want me to wait for you to...! don't want to do that until we compose the letter and then FISER: I think we ought to go ahead and get things ready, and talk to them and see what negotiations have to take place.
McARTHUR: Do you have any draft letters like we need. I've seen a letter like that before.
FISER: Oh they have got plenty of them. Who would write the letter?
McARTHUR: I guess it would be licensing. There is a way of doing it, because rve seen it done before.
FISER: There is an INPO...Vic Whaley, that is the INPO liaison.
McARTHUR. In fact I will give him a call right now.
FISER: O.K. (b116a)
NOVEMBER 18, 1992 I had a meeting with my Personnel Resources representative, Mr. Ben Easley, in order to find out if he knew of any problems with me and my perfonrance. Ben told me that the only thing he knew was the fact that Mr. Keuter made the decision not to give me a raise, and that decision was made against Mr. McArthux's advice and wishes. Ben went on to say that Mr. McArthur actually had rated me very high, when compared to all the other people reporting directly to him. This meeting took place in Ben's presence.
28
'f I asked Ben if he would talk to Mr. Lagergren and Sorrelle, and see if he could find me a job. He agreed to do that.
NOVEMBER 18, 1992 Mr. Jim Bates, an INPO employee, called to tell me that all that had to be done to arrange the swap between Mr. Bill Burke and me was for Mr. McArthur to call Mr. Ken Strahm, INPO Sr. V.P., and request that the necessary arrangements be initiated.
NOVEMBER 18, 1992 Mr. McArthur camne by to ask me how things were going with regards to the swap with INPO. I told him about the recent phone calls. He expressed reservations about placing Burke in my position downtown, but said that he would go ahead and start the ball rolling a swap.
NOTEMIBER 19, 1992 EASLEY: I talked to Wilson, he said for me to come and talk to him. He said he was going to work out something, it may not be exactly what you want, but he is going to work out something. I mentioned Sorrelle's job, he said he and Sorrelle had talked, and he know more about it, and instead of getting into it with me, that he rather just sit down and talk. And when I find Bill, I will talk to Bill about that otherjob.
FISER: So, again you don't know what else is available. The problem is that I don't feel like I can stay in Chemistry, with all this going on with Keuter. Especially after what Wilson told me took place whenever Keuter didn't want to give me a raise, and now this added on top of that. So I just wonder if there is anything else out there anyw.here that is available.
EASLEY: No I sure don't, as we get jobs available, Ill let you know. See we don't know, we know there is some vacancies out there, but we don't know when they are going to fill them, or if they are going to be approved to be filled..
FISER: Well, let me go and talk to Wilson and see what he has come up with, he apparently has already talked to David.
EASLEY: I think he, he going to try to work something out, because he says that he don't think that you were treated fairly.
FISER: He has told me that several times.
EASLEY: Oh yeah.
29
FISER: I told him the other day that I hate to go through this, but if I have to go through it, I can't think of a better person to go through it with. -_
EASLEY: Right, right, right, right.
FISER: You know I appreciate your comments the other day. You know it helps me to at least know that I didn't screw up.
EASLEY: Right, righL..right, right FISER. It is just unfortunate.
EASLEY: Like I said, he had you were up there high for the HIP.
FISER: I know, he told me that. You didn't tell me anything he hadn't already told me.
EASLEY: Well, he didn't lie.
FISER: I know. That tells me that it is just an unfortunate comning together of events that has caused this, and it is really not related to my work performance.
EASLEY: Right. OK and I still am going to talk to Bill. (b159a)
NOVEMBER 19, 1992 McARTHUR: You want to talk to me?
NOVEMBER 19,1992 FISER: Ben said you wanted to talk to me.
McARTHUR: Oh, I guess what I wanted to say was, I didn't get any kind of communication from David about what he felt about you being in that position. But my feeling is, if you can't work anything out with INPO, we ought to be able to work out something, if thafs a viable plan.
FISER: You couldn't get any feeling...
McARTHUR: David and I haven't talked. That's what I'm saying.
FISER: O.K 30
- McARTHUR: Especially with what has happened, I want something to work out good for you,
@> some way. And I'm not sure how good you think that is?
FISER: Well it's going to hurt.
McARTHUR: Have you thought about applying for any of those positions in the resource group?
FISER: That's what I've been trying to get with Ben on, to find out what is available, and Ben is saying, "I don't really Know".
McARTHUR: Well I know there is a lot of things going on up there, I don't know what's really available.
FISER: Who would have the information?
McARTHUR: Gosh, I don't know...David would probably have the information.
FISER: My information is that we don't have any time, that Keuter wants this to happen.
McARTHUR: No, what I would say is...let me make this suggestion, that we would go ahead and make it happen, but you would still be able to sit there in Sam Harvey's position till you decide what you are going to do. Don't put yourself in the position of saying that you've got to make the decision over night. What we'll do is make the transition, and let you think about.. and work out something what would be good for you. I'm being pushed to make things happen. O.K, that's the biggest problem I have. In fact, I'm not making it as fast as I've been asked to. But I just don't feel like, in that environment where it would make you do something stupid.
FISER: In that case, if I am going to work out something that would be best for me, then I don't feel like I should take Sam's position. So if we have got to do something, and you've determined that you have to do something now, then I feel like I'd be safer working for David.
McARTHUR: What I need to do then, when I get back ..somebody said David may be in today?
FISER: David is not in today, David is sick today.
McARTHUR: Jocher is off sick today too. I don't want to bother him at home, I'm just not good at botheenng someone at home. Let's Just set up something with him =rst thing in the morning, and go talk to David. O.K?
FISER: You understand why I don't want...
31
K y McARTHUR: I understand exactly. But I think I would not let you get hurt that way, but you can see that I haven't done too good so far with other things.
FISER Neither one of us did.
McARTHUR But that came before your and my time, whatever happened, which I don't know, but why Rob wasn't willing to take you back, I don't know.
FISER: The only thing I can say is that I feel that Rob is still upset with the February condenser tube leak, and how long it took to clean up.
McARTHUR: I beard that.
FISER: We absolutely could not have done better, as the matter of fact, following David Goetcheus' recommendation of going to the water treatment plant hurt us, because it wasn't operating properly, and it was contributing organic sulfates. But that is the only thing we could have done better, was to have'not followed his recommendation. But if we bade not followed hid recommendation, you would have got fired and I would have got fired McARTHUR: That's right. I take it that you think he was wrong?
, FISER: Oh yeah. It turned out to be wrong. Bill agreed with that, everybody agreed with that but David.
McARTHUR: Well, let's just set up something for the first thing tomorrow morning, we'll get that worked out someway.
FISER: I feel like that is the only thing he could be upset about, and Wilson, I had the best minds in the country involved in that And we were absolutely vindicated...we couldn't do any better. It took a long time to clean it up, it was a big mess. I feel like, here again, a mess was made, I had to clean it up, I'm in trouble because I cleaned it up.
McARTHUR: I don't understand this place anyway...(b201a)
NOVEMBER 20, 1992 McARTHUR: (b239a)What happened7 FISER: When I left the other day, you said you were going to get with Sorrele the first thing this morning.
32
McARTHUR: Yeah, he and I haven't really had the chance to talk-, in any great detail, but I think we can work something out.
FISER You don't think Keuter would be opposed to it do you?
McARTHUR: No, I don't, I cant..You know honestly I don't know the answer to that question.
You asked me a question that I don't know the answer to, but I think he will listen to me.
FISER O.K McARTHUR: Now why would he listen to me, and not have listened to me before?
FISER. Yeah, now answer that one, that is a good question.
McARTHUR: I don't know but I will pose the...he and I are going to talk this evening, about several matters, so Ill talk to him then.
Have you found out anything about INPO? Are you still pursuing that?
FISER Yeah, but again, the way I took it you said you had to have a decision quickly, and you were in trouble because you hadn't made one already.
a; McARTHTJR: Well, that's true.
FISER: That tells me we don't have time to work out anything with INPO. And, who is pushing this thing, why does it have to happen Monday?
McARTHUR: Actually, I could probably get by maybe a little bit longer. Joe Bynurn asked me yesterday where I was, and I told him I was holding out trying to get something worked out. And I told Dan Keuter the same thing, he asked the same thing.
FISER: If they are not pushing to have something happen immediately, I would appreciate a little more time, and work out something with INPO.
McARTHUR: Well, lets work it out FISER: I told my wife today, I said "Hay, I think that today I'm going to get word on what we are going to do". I was thinking that we would just go ahead and put me in Sorrelle's position. Now, what about Sam, what has Sam been told? Is he coming in Monday thinking...
McARTHUR: No. He doesn't know what is going to happen, I told him I was putting in an acting role, but I haven't given him a date. He just sees himself eventually going to Sequoyah, that's the 33
& biggest thing for him, and Rob has agreed to that. As far as what he is doing here, he just sees himself in an acting role. He said "I really hate to do that, I'd rather just go out to Sequoyah at some point in time".
FISER: That's a good comment, I don't see...
McARTHUR. I thought, I figured he would be more enthused, he didn't want to replace you. He never asked for that, he didn't comment whatsoever, so I think that Sam is clean, he's not been clean in a lot of things, but he is clean in that one for sure. (b246a) I just want you to understand that.
FISER Well, I am glad you told me that McARTHUR: No, he really hasn't, in fact he said, "Hay, I'm only doing it because you asked me to it, I'd be willing just to stay like we are". But there is enough push to make it go that we have to do it.
But let's just let it ride for right now, unless I get told something different. If that is the case Ill let you know.
FISER: When we talked...
McARTHUR: Now I have to talk some more with David, he and I have not really had a chance, but we talked just briefly, but I need to talk to him some more and say is there something that we can let you have.
Have you applied on any of those positions that are going on within...
FISER: I've got a whole list of them that I mentioned to Ben, but a lot of them have got due dates that have already passed.
McARTHUR: Today is the date on most of them.
FISER: No they have already passed on most of them...
McARTHUR: I thought that..
FISER: I've got them in my office.
McARTHUR: Do you?
FISER: Ill go double check that, but I think they have already passed.
34
David, I talked to them about them, and he said there had been a major shakeup, and there is going to be a lot more postings come up.
McARTHUJR: Oh, did he?
FISER.- Yeah.
McARTHURT I haven't herd that?
Think about things this weekend, and if you need to call me call me at home.
FISER: OX.
McARTHUR: I'll be here tomorrow morning for a while. (b253a) I'm going to try to stay away, I've spent too many nights this week at work.
FISER: Well that helps a little bit, you see I've been turning stuff over to Sam because I thought Monday was it.
November 21, 1992 J. WILSON: Hay, how are you?
FISER: Have you got a minute?
J. WILSON: Well, I'm about to though.
FISER: That's what I heard.. I wanted to come by and say bye. When is your last day?
J. WILSON: Next week or Monday, a week from Monday. The 30th, Bob Fennech takes over. I thought all I would do would be to check out, but I think I go to an all day with Jill. I said do you really want me to go to that, am I going to come back and implement anything.
FISER: Oh well.
J. WILSON: I guess they want me to be there as a... for management.
FISER: I wouldn't blame them. I went by to see Rob.
J. WILSON: Was he over there?
35
( j FISER: He is not in today. Obviously rve done something to offend him or you one, and I just wanted to come by and at least talk to you and try to set it straight if I could.
J. WILSON: To offend him or us?
FISER: Yeah, McArthur told me that he didn't want me back..I don't know what I've done.
J. WILSON: Well...out here, and then that's all I can talk about, I think the consensus was that you were not effective. Now, was that you, or was the problem bigger then that? Who knows? Who knows at all? We had not gone where we wanted, in terms of chemistry, in terms of performance, in terms of pounding on the table..I can sympathize with you, there is a lot of reasons.
Clearly, it was recognized a long time ago, that the chemistry systems were not right Right may not be the right word, but were not optimum, were not good is probably better. And it kept getting held at arms length..I kept pounding the table and telling them, "Damn it, you people don't pick at me for that". Finally, last year, I made sure that the chemistry upgrade program stayed on, and things happened, because there was a lot of people saying, "Do you really have to do this?"
FISER: I think that is how, Jack, I got into trouble, because when I came here, Bill Lagergren said, "Now I'm going to give you some resources, it is going to include money, and it is going to include people, and its going to include equipment and I expect you to run it. And we got some equipment,
, I don't mean to imply that we did not, and we made improvements, but I took that program and I ran it, and we were INPO "best plant" in every category. And I feel like not I am paying for it, because, I made it work. That is the best way I know how to put it.
J. WILSON: Well, I don't know, we at TVA are an outfit that tends to deal with unsat information by...and yet...my assessment would be that you were not aggressive enough, but there are a whole parade of people that are not aggressive enough. It is still kind of that way, we are getting towards INPO at least, they keep beating us up. We are getting aggressive now. I don't know if we are getting aggressive now or not FISER: Time will tell.
J. WILSON: I heard yesterday that, somebody heard that the chemistry upgrade program was going to cost a lot of money, and wanted it to be known that we were not going to spend that much.
FISER: That is one reason, Jack, that I was excited when you came, because I knew that you had experienced the rough stuff, and that you would help us. And you are about the only one that has.
Because, you have replaced generators, you know what we are talking about, and you know we are not kidding. It is a serious matter.
36
V 3J.-WILSON: Anyway, I here people saying...they can't believe it takes that much money. Now I 6F- don't know if it takes that much money or not, I don't know how much money they are talking about, what I know is that I drove them through to do a good study, and we've got to look at that study after it is finished.
I also know that to not redo the sampling system, to put merely in the lab, well to some extent we did the lab, but not a lot, but merely to fit good online systems in existing stuff, was two and a half million dollars five years ago. I suspect that it did not get any cheaper.
FISER. IIl1 bet you your right You remember when I left I talked to you and Rob out here in the stairwell, that was in March, and I said "Hey guys, I'm going downtown", and I asked you and Rob at that time, I wanted to make sure that there was nothing wrong, that there was nothing that you all were dissatisfied with, and the comment that I got was, "Heck no, get down there, you have been here a long time, you need a break, broaden your horizons, it looks like a good opportunity for me.
Do you realize that I got told Monday that I need to find ajob. When I asked the question why, the only thing I got was what you just said, this came from Wilson, that he could not give me an answer, except if I really pushed him, which I did, he said "ineffective, and that was because he did not feel like I had the management support in getting the money for the upgrades", and he also mentioned support below me.
That is just really hard, and I want to talk to Rob and make sure that I have not offended him in any way, I want to make sure ofthat, and that we are at least parting on good terms. rm going to try to find something downtown.
J. WILSON: Yeah, you see, I think the thing that we have all got to worry about, very regularly, is the standards are changing, and standards are rising. Are the standards higher? Are you and I, I need to quit worrying about it after 42 years, I'm going to do something else, but it is the same thing, the standards are rising, and as it becomes evident that we are lagging behind those standards, then...
FISER: If I had it to do over again, and you and I were just starting out two years ago, whatever it was, what advice could you give me that would help me not face what I am facing right now?
J. WILSON: Well, yeah,...
FISER. I want to if I can just keep from...
37
J. WILSON: The advice would be, where ever you are, but certainly in the nuclear business, but kind of in industry in general, is strive for, somehow the absolute best, and don't compromise. And that is a fine line, because...
FISER I think you would have fired me.
J. WILSON: ...because, if you don't compromise, then you piss some people off and you don't get anywhere. You don't get anything done from that point of view either.
But that is really what everybody looks for, is constantly diving for some super high standard, and that is what we kind of lack here at Sequoyah, and we still lack that in chemistry, and we still lack it in chemistry. We're probably starting to get something, but we are way behind the curve, we should have had the...l guess the thing that surprised us all was the fact that wben INPO came in was that they found that their basic knowledge was not there. And we all kind of assumed that FISER: Every year, I had the same training managers that Bill's got, and boy I'd hit them hard.
We'd pass out mock tests, and have interviews and all kinds of things, you know if you get them used to being interviewed, and ask questions...
J. WILSON: The thing that I see that makes the most successful people stand out is the fact that they, whatever it is that they are doing, that they don't accept anything less than the absolute best.
But they are able to do that without taking forever either. We have some people here that try their 4-" absolute best, right here, but they need 10 million dollars and 50 people to do it, you see, and we can't do that either.
The whole bottom line is that the world is getting as competitive as hell. Europe is doing... was just reading through this INPO thing. Here is a chart, and the black is the European plants, and they run vith as good or better capacity factor then we do, and look at the difference in manning, across the board. Total, they man half as much. That's what we are competing with. Average staff per megawatt...look at that, maintenance is about the same. Every place else is not. We've really grown over in engineering,...
That's, maybe that is just fresh on mu mind since I am reading this Zach Pate thing, but that is really my advice, you've got to rise to the competition, but you've got to do it by pushing the people to give the ultimate product. You also worry about schedule pressure. That's what your fear is, schedule pressure.
Well I've seen that, once you get over, once you get the target right, it is easy to overcome schedule pressure. What is tough id to overcome schedule pressure and the other at the same time. Because we are all just so human, and we can't sort it out. So we have got to learn one of them right, and the one to do right first is to set the high standards, and achieve that high standard, without taking forever. But once you set that high standard, and learn to achieve that high standard, then it gets
'38 38
'k~j 8easier and easier to do it faster and faster. That is what I've seen in the past.We have not achieved that here at Sequoyah.
FISER: My goal was in chemistry was to do the best and to help get the funding to do the things that...but all the time I wanted to be "best plant" in every category. We did tat, but obviously I failed on the other one. But plainly, we should have...
J. WILSON: It's tough in the climate here, we're in a climate to be tough on individuals, and holding them accountable. I think you can go out and do fine, I think. you have a lot of basic knowledge, a lot of knowledge, a lot ofjust stuff like thaL FISER: I told Bill Jocher, I said what I think they would really like to do is take Bill Jocher and Gary Fiser and add them together and divide by two.
I wanted to make sure that you were not upset with me, I guarantee you that I gave it my very best J. WILSON: Well, where I amn, I bought into the move because we really wanted to do something to upgrade, to make the thing more effective, and I'm not setting here talldng about Bill Jocher. We haven't achieved it yet. We haven't achieved it yet. That is nothing for you or any of us to take comfort in, but I guess ont thing that ought to tell me is, and that is something to take some comfort in, is the fact that we couldn't get to being effective and really high quality and top notch, is clearly not solely you. (b339a)
FISER: I do take comfort in that, but I feel that I'm the one that taking theheat J. WILSON: Well, I know, I understand clearly the dilemma you are dealing with now, I think you just have to set your sights, and go out and attack a new mountain.
FISER: Well, you confirmed what I thought.
J. WILSON: I'll be downtown, I'll probably see you or something.
FISER: Good luck.
J. WILSON: Best of luck to you, I know what rm going to do, I'm going to go see my grandkids.
NOVEMIBER 23, 1992 FISER: ...it has got to be done, because he stood in the gap and insisted that they do it...
LAGERGREN: And I stood in the gap the previous two years, just to keep the study going.
39
FISER: and he mentioned training, he said he was alittle upset that they had a training finding. I told him that I had the same training people that Bill had. I said that the thing that I did whenever INPO come in, we had mock interviews, and we should set up and give the tech's tests, get them into a room even, just like INPO does, to where they would get used to being questioned, and the type of questions. We would even call other plants and see what they were asking. We did that to get them accustomed to being interviewed by an outsider, to where they were a little more comfortable. If I had been out there this time, I would have done that and we would not have had a training finding, because I would have had them ready.
So basically, it just came down to the fact that we don't have the instrumentation upgrade, we are behind the eight ball, we should be a lot further along. Therefore he felt like that was why Beecken did not want me back out there.
You realize that I have not been in chemistry for, this coming April, it will be two years. The last time INPO came in we did fine.
They can't really say anything, they don't really have any complaints other then INPO hit us this time. I feel like that they have got to find a goat.
I feel like Kingsley is probably in trouble, because he told Waters that everything was fine, we bad some problems, and we were going to fix them. And it didn't happen. I know that during the INPO debrief two or three weeks ago, when they go over these things verbally, Kingsley and Waters were with INPO, and when this came up, Waters looked at Kingsley and...(I got this through licensing)..., Waters looked at Kingsley and said, "you wrote me a letter, and you said that we had a good program, we were doing well, the chemistry index was good, there were some problems with instrumentation. and you were going to fix them". Kingsley made some comment like, 'He guessed he was in trouble".
But now you see who is in trouble. So I feel like I'm really taking the fall for ODK. Really what happened, Waters went to...
LAGERGREN: Who wrote him a memo.
FISER Waters went to an INPO meeting, in October or November of 19...
LAGERGREN: Yeah, but who would have drafted the memo for Oliver?
FISER: Me.
LAGERGREN: Did it have anything-40
FISER: No. Because I drafted the thing and sent it to Jim Barker, and Jim Barker took it and massaged it and sent it to Wilson McArthur, and Wilson sent it to ODK. And what caused that, Waters went to a meeting with INPO, where the comment was made that chemistry across the nation appears to be slipping, and kind of falling behind.
So he comes back and he writes Kingsley, and he made this comment, are we O.K., at Browns Ferry and Sequoyah? So they called me and I said, 'No, we are not O.K" And Barker pretty incorporated my comments, he changed a few things. He sent it to Wilson, who sent it to Kingsley.
According to Wilson, I just talked to him a few days ago...
LAGERGREN: Was that a couple of years ago?
FISER: It was in December of '90, I've got the memo.
But Kingsley threw that back in Wilson McArthur's face and said "I am not sending this to John Waters, you change it, you make it more positive, and then I will send it to him."
And they changed it, and they made it more positive, and then he sent it to him, and Wilson said that he came in and said that he was not going to send a memo that sounded that bad to Waters. So he changed it.
-~> But the bad part about that is, even the letter that he finally sent said, "Yeah, we've got problems, and we are going to fix it, and we are going to fix it in'91". And nothing got done.
So even what he committed to Waters did not get done. So see he is hopping mad, because it makes him look bad.
LAGERGREN: Well yeah, but why didn't he fund the CUP then?
FISER: Because I didn't make it a big issue, Bill.
LAGERGREN: No, it didn't matter how big of an issue you made it. It had to come from the line back down to Jack to say, this is a sacrosanct. I mean there was other pet projects...
FISER: The cafeteria!
LAGERGREN: Yeah, in all honesty, what does building that dad gum new security thing do for us. We could have built six chemistry labs for what we paid for security. But there were sacrosanct projects that would come down that we were told..
FISER: So after that meeting, I'm guessing that Kingsley chewed Bynum out, but I know for a fact from talking to Wilson that Kingsley chewed Keuter out, and Keuter chewed Wilson out, and 41
>_ Wilson called me in and said "Boy, I got chewed out because we didn't make CUP a big enough Q issue to get it done."
LAGERGREN: It wouldn't matter how big of an issue the Wilsons, Gary Fisers the Dan Keuter side of the house could make it...it could have been their number one priority, the fact of the matter is with the dollar limit placed on the plant...
FISER: By Kingsley.
LAGERGREN: ...by Kingsley, personally, FISER: I know.
LAGERGREN: ...personally,...
FISER: It couldn't happen.
LAGERGREN: ...it couldn't happen. The only way that project, independent of how much noise you all made, the only way that project would have got funded, is for them to come down through the line side of the house, and say, "That project was sacred". (b7Sb)
But Jack took the same position on the feedwater heaters, see I don't think I can disagree with that.
That essentially used up the equivalent amount of money that the CUP did. CUP was on there funded, and the funding decreased, decreased..
FISER: But they did the feedwater heaters.
LAGERGREN: Well I know, but where do you think the money came from?
FISER: I don't know.
LAGERGREN: Well I mean that is where the money came from. (b78b) It came from that and several other projects.
FISER: To do anything, you've got to bump something else?
LAGERGREN: Yeah. Yeah. Unless you are given some more money, and told "This project is going to go, no matter".
Like the feedwater heaters, the feedwater heaters were a sacred project. It was on Jack's sacred projects list. But I don't disagree with that.
42
FISER I don't either. -
LAGERGREN: I mean...
FISER: That had to be done.
LAGERGREN: It had to be done.
FISER: And the condensers have got to be replaced too, you've got to get the copper out.
LAGERGREN: And Goetcheus is telling me that has kind of fallen by the way side.
FISER: I know it. Our steam generators have two cancers, the copper cancer, and then the molar ratio cancer. The copper cancer takes a long time to get you, years. But it has been years. So we are in real jeopardy, and I don't know where we are. The molar ratio cancer can get you in a cycle, go ask Trojan. It can get you in one cycle, and that is CUP, you've got to have on line, accurate, instruments to be able to get your molar ratio right. If you don't you are guessing. And it will eat you alive, in one cycle.
So you have got two cancers, don't even talk to me about just treating one. If you are going to a doctor and you have got two, one is a slow killer that you have had a long time, and one will get you in 18 months, which one are you going to treat?
LAGERGREN: The quick one.
FISER: Well, you are going to treat it, but you better get that other one.
So I sort of...it made me feel better, he looked at me and he said, "We should not take any comfort in this, but nobody else has been able to do it".
I said, "Yeah, but when you came on board I figured we had our best shot, because, you have been at Surrey, you have replaced generators, you know we are not kidding.' And even he, in a Vice President position, couldn't get the money. So, what chance do I have? (93)
LAGERGREN: Yeah.
FISER: And he knows what it will cost you.
LAGERGREN: I talked to Joe, and Joe will give you money...If he has got it to give. But they maintained the last outage on 50 million dollars. And INPO came around and hit up for ferrite jobs and stuff getting whacked. If you don't have the money, you don't have the money.
43
6,J FISER: So that is what happened, and I've got it from Wilson, and I've got it straight from Jack U Wilson. And I am going to talk to Beecken and make sure that nothing...
LAGERGREN: Yeah, it's about time you had a talk with Rob.
FISER: I put a note under his door Saturday, and also told Jack to be sure and tell Rob that I want to talk to him, because I sure don't want there to be any hard feelings. It doesn't matter if I have hard feelings, but it matters to me if he does.
So it was CUP, and it is hard for me to understand, it is hard for me to swallow. But rm going to have to swallow it.
You don't have a job at Bellefonte, do you? Do you want to send someone down there to SRO school. I'll go down there and I'll go to school for four years, I don't care.
LAGERGREN: No, I don't think well start work until '95.
FISER: That would be a fun place.
LAGERGREN: Well, what are you looking at right now.
FISER: The only thing that is open, I looked at the board down here by your office, I got in there
-- Friday when you were not here, and went through all the vacancy announcements.
There are a lot of Resource jobs, pretty high up jobs, that are open. INPO would like to send somebody here and swap me out. They would like to send old Bill Burke, the one that came and did our assist visit back in February. They would like to send him because he has been at INPO for ten years, and they would like to get him some fresh plant or corporate experience. And they know what is going on. And they have already talked to their Vice President, what ever...Schaum?,
something like that. And he is just waiting on a phone call, and if somebody calls and makes the right offer, he wants me down there. A reverse loan type thing.
LAGERGREN: What has to happen, for that to happen?
FISER The only thing that has got to happen, they have got to provide Bill Burke, the one that wants to come, with a position that would really add to his credentials as an evaluator.
But I don't think he would take anything at Sequoyah, except the chemistry manager's job. And I don't think he would take anything down here except this job here, or maybe a program manager.
If they would call and offer that, it could happen tomorrow.
LAGERGREN: I mean, has somebody got to be doing that over on this side of the house?
44
FISER: Yeah, it has got to be initiated from this side.
LAGERGREN: Well, who is it?
FISER: Wilson will have to get our INPO liaison, Vic Wahley, to fire off a letter. Of course, they would have to have everybody's blessing, Joe's blessing at least. And I don't know if he would be a problem.
LAGERGREN: No.
FISER But, that's our way out. I don't feel like any of this was my doings, or my fault. I don't want it on my record that I took a demotion, and that is what I will have to do if we don't work something out like that. So ifI take a demotion, that would make it difficult for me from now on...
LAGERGREN: Yeah.
FISER ...to get a job outside, or anything like that. It would be O.K if I had done something wrong, and deserved it. But man Bill, everywhere I go Ijust get conformation that they didn't have any problems. I feel like I am the fall guy.
LAGERGREN: Well is there anything in the Water Resources area that you want to do?
U FISER Yeah. I don't know much about the job, he didn't tell me. But look at the closing date...closing date...According to David Sorrelle there is a big shakeup coming, and there was a lot more of these jobs coming available.
LAGERGREN: Yeah, there will be because Ralph Brooks, who is over that thing, he came to the Hay, Committee, and I know Ralph. I mean if there is ajob in there that you think you'd like a shot at..
FISER: I don't know a whole lot about it. But I would sure like to give it a try. I feel like that would be a good place to go with Bill Clinton and Al Gore taking over. I feel like it would be a good opportunity there.
I don't want to stay in chernistry, if I stay in chemistry I will have to step down, and I don't feel like I deserve that.
LAGERGREN: Well, I was just looking at a Hay presentation of where that organization is going, that would be a good good place for you. A good career move for you.
45
( ) FISER Iwould like to go to licensing school, but they have got to do something so quick, that I don't think they will give me any chance at all. According to McArthur, Joe Bynum is on him wanting to know why he has not done anything already. I think they would have done something week before last except for the fact that my father died. It has been two weeks ago this past Saturday, and I was out of town, or they would have probably done something then.
So that's the only thing I know to do because these dad blame things are past the closing dates.
LAGERGREN: Yeah, but you can apply on these things after the closing date, they don't have to consider you, but they can. And I know that there is a number of those jobs that they don't have anybody in house earmarked for it. If I believe Ralph Brooks, which I believe Ralph. So they are going to have to hire those people from somewhere.
FISER: See, that would be an excellent opportunity, and if I could take a promotion then it would not look bad on my record.
LAGERGREN: Right.
FISER: It would be a good opportunity.
LAGERGREN: Well, why don't you apply on it?
FISER: I'm going to. I'll do that today.
LAGERGREN: O.K. Use me as a reference.
FISER: I'm not going to use Keuter.
LAGERGREN: No, use me as a reference, I think that would help with Brooks, because I have helped him.
FISER. He and I took some training together for quality improvement, and we had a good time.
He will remember me I think from that.
LAGERGREN: Well OX.
FISER: I'll get something going on these things and see if any more have been added. Ill go ahead and apply on these.
That would be a good way out, that would be a win win situation.
46
Wilson kind of indicated that he was not all that pleased with Jocher. And I said, if it was two years ago, and you could have given me some advice that would keep me out of the how water I'm in right now, what would it be? He said, "Well, you just should have been pounding on that table, you should have not taken no for an answer, you should have been a lot more aggressive", but he said, "you know, you can't carry that too far, because if you carry that too far, you get people mad at you, and you don't get any support".
I think he was alluding to Jocher.
But, oh what a year. (bl60b)
NOVEMBER 23, 1992 McARTHUR: ...that says Sam is going to be in the position that you are going to be. Now what I am doing is putting you in Sam's position right now and we will work out other things. O.K.? I'm not sure what we are going to do yet but we are going to work on it.
FISER: That's the one thing I didn't want McARTHUR: Well, now look, I don't want to debate on that.(b162b) Anything.
FISER: Well what about Sorrelle?
McARTHlUR: Well, Sorrelle says he wants to talk about it, and he wants to talk to me.
The only thing I want to do is get this thing done, and we can worry about what we are going to do later. We ill work out something for you. If I have to overrule, now I want David to make up his own mind, I'd like you guys to talk, if I could get all three of you together to get it resolved.
FISER: Yeah.
McARTHUR: That does not mean that you have to stay in that position, you understand, I'm just saying that I have to get this thing moving.
O.K.?
FISER: Well, if you have got to, then you have got to.
McARTHIUR: Then I want to set down with you and David. Is David here this afternoon?
FISER: I don't know.
47
t3\ McARTHUR: When you find out ifhe is, lets make sure we sit down with him.
FISER: Well, I talked with Bill Lagergren, and he was talking about the positions that were available.
McARTHUR: Yeah, he was mentioning something that I didn't know anything about FISER. ...some elevens, even those are past the dates.
McARTHUR: Which group are they in?
FISER: W'ater Resources.
McARTHUR All I am doing right now is...you've got a place, and if we can get you over in David Sorrelle's group, we'll do that. But I'm being, I was supposed to have done this thing last week (bl70b)
Did you hear anything from INPO at all?
FISER: Yeah, they want to come. I talked to them this morning.
U McARTHUR: Well, what do we do?
FISER: We've got to get with Wabley over here and get them to fire off a letter.
McARTHUR: Can you set it up?
FISER: If you want me to do that, I will dothat.
McARTHUR: Set it up and we will go talk to them.
FISER: Now, the position, I talked to Bill Burke, I called him to see what he was interested in, and he said the only position he was interested in was the Corporate Chemistry Manager, or the Chemistry Manager at Sequoyah. He said there was a possibility that he would consider a program manager position here, but he does not think INPO would.
McARTHUR: That may be a tough battle.
FISER: Yeah.
McARTHUR: There may be some possibilities in a day or two, OK.
48
O F1SER. Yeah, O.K FISER I went out and talked to Jack Wilson.
McARTHUR: Did you? How did that go?
FISER: Saturday. It went real well. He basically said, in a nut shell, that it was the chemistry upgrade project, not getting that done.
McARTHUR That's not your fault.
FISER: Well, I said, what could I have done better. He said "Well, you should have pounded your fist, and demanded that they fund CUP..."
McARTHUR. We did that, we sat down with..
FISER: ...But he said, "You cant carry that too far, you know if you make enemies you can't get anything done either". He vas very supportive as far as anything...(bl80b)
Note: At this point we were interrupted.
U NOVEMBER24, 1992 Mr. Sam Harvey came in to see me and say that the INPO swap would take weeks to work out, and maybe even take until January. He went on to say that there was a lot of work to be done, several audits, etc., and that I would have to help out. I volunteered to do both the audits.
He then expressed concern that Dr. E.S. Chandrasekaran was so upset about the fact that Sam was now the interim Chemistry manager, that he was going to leave. I told him that I would do everything that I could to calm Chandra down.
DECEMIBER 3,1992 Mr. McArthur came by to see me and asked how everything was going, and I told him that with regards to the INPO swap arrangements, nothing was going on. He asked me if I had talked anymore with Mr. Sorrelle about working for him. I told him that I had not yet had an opportunity to discuss it with him. I then asked him if Jocher was coming back downtown, or if he would become the new Chemistry!
RadCon Manager at Sequoyah. He told me that there would not be a chemistry RadCon merger at Sequoyah, and he immediately called Jocher and told him that he had talked to Joe Bynum, and that Joe had agreed to wait at least six months.
49
DECEMBER 9, 1992 FISER: What is the matter Rob?
BEECKEN: What? What do you want to talk about?
FISER What is the matter, I just wanted to find out what is going on. Obviously I feel like you are upset with me for something, because you don't want me back.
BEECKEN: I wanted a perfect INPO evaluation, that's how come. The chemists, when you look the, now the one issue of material condition...that's O.K, I understand it. But you start looking at this training thing, general lack of knowledge, chemistry data...analysis. And then get into some of the other personnel issues, see that's where you could have done better.
FISER: Let me say something about that, Rob I honestly believe that if I had been here, you may have had one finding, not three. I may have been able to get you out of the equipment problem again, but I can't state that unequivocally, because we had that excursion the first day they were here, and went into action level two in DO because somebody jerked the bags off the...
BEECKEN: Well, yeah, but that is not the issue. The thing that pisses, that tees me off on that one is, the systems engineer called the chemistry shift supervisor and said that he was going to remove s the bags, watch for DO. Did he effectively do that? (He shakes his head no)
FISER: I have not heard that. The problem INPO has with that is that there are no alarms in the control rooms and all that kind of stuff. So I don't know that I could have got you out of that one.
But Rob, I had the same training people that Bill has got, and I made it for years. So what is the problem?
The problem was that Bill had directed them to do some training in Reg. Guides and stuff like that, and that is not a bad thing, that is a good thing to do, but there is some other stuff that you have to have them boned up on when INPO comes in. Also, every time that they came in, I would set the guys down, and I would give them mock interviews, I would come up with a set of questions just like they do, get them used to being questioned, get them used to providing answers and presenting themselves well, I did that every time. And this time we got some sample questions that INPO was s king. Sam Harvey showed them to me. and I said you have got to set these to Bill right away so he will have an idea of the type questions that INPO was asking. He showed them to Bill, and Bill did not follow my recommendation in getting them together and briefing them, doing the same thing I had done in the past. He did not do it, he did not feel like they needed it. I think he felt like they would do alright.
That was not the case.
50
On the data review, every time I sent data to INPO I reviewed it myself. I spent days if that is what it took, and we corrected the errors, and if there was any discrepancy, along with that data to INPO went a list saying that on this date, this sodium value is going to be at this level, and this is the explanation for it. For some reason, that was not done.
So if I had been here, I honestly believe that you would have had one finding...
BEECKEN: Which would have been the material condition?
FISER Yeah, I can't sit here and tell you Rob that I could have got you out of that one...l3 BEECKEN: No, I don't believe that you could have.
FISER: Well, I've got out of it for years, It's the same equipment out there. 'It's the same stuff ..but we were on borrowed time on that one. Now honestly, with the progress that we have made in getting the study done, I honestly thought I could have got you out of that one too, but I may not have been able to, but we have made more progress these past two years then we ever have, as far as chemistry upgrade.
But we got the finding, but I'm telling you that you would not have had the other two, because I had the same training people that he had, and I made it. It's difficulL..(c41a)
(Interruption, 41-74) _5 l . 511-)
FISER There is another thing on that training Rob, that I can't prove, but.:.BilI may have wanted that one to get training in trouble so that he could clean house over there and get some of his people in. Now I can't prove that, but it is almost as if he sort of encouraged that in a way to show them up, to make them look bad so he could get rid of them and get some of his people in here. I don't know.
That is just between you and I, and if that gets out, you had to have said it because I haven't told anyone else, but it is almost as if that sort of thing was going on, he was sort of encouraging that one. -Wvet) -
BEECKEN: ...you know, I don't think Bill, Bill needs to go on back downtown one way or the other. He about drove me,...but I'm real upset, 'll tell you where I'm coming from Gary, right now...a year, two years ago was fire the guy. Every time you turned around it was, "Oh my God, what are you guys doing, this is terrible". And now I am starting to get it from...
FISER: Well I'm telling you, now hear me, you may have had one finding if I had been here, and I am going to give you a maybe on that one.
51
BEECKEN: But the problem..I didn't like...Peterson and those guys...
FISER: Yeah, I pretty well, you know, in January, now I really crossed those guys, because they sat in my office Rob, and they demanded that I turn out 52 or 53 plots everyday, seven days a week, holidays, weekends, everything. I refused, I could not do that, it was impossible. Not only did they want me to commit to doing it, they wanted me to put it in procedures, and absolutely could not understand why I would not do that. So they got real upset with me because I would not do that. Because that was the kiss of death, there was no way. It is all we could do to tum them out the way we do. Now you get this new spiffy system, then there is a possibility.
But I talked to INPO about that, and they said that is ridiculous, at most you would turn out a couple a day. Remember when I would give you guys, Cal Vondra, a RCS dose equivalent and DO, or something like that everyday, that is all they wanted. But these guys wanted me to turn out 53 a day, I couldn't do it, it was impossible, and I refused to do it, and they got all huffy and ran off and told all sorts of terrible tales on me.
But it was not because I was not wanting to be responsive, it was because that was an impossible situation.
So, yeah, I fully admit it. And I, I didn't throw them out of my office, but my gosh I couldn't do that Rob. There is no way. No human being, no organization could do that, no one does.
So, yeah, I got in trouble with NSRB. But you have got to understand that Bill was down town at that time, and Bill was whispering all sorts of things in their car.
Now you have got to also understand that I have been gone for 18 months. I haven't been in chemistry. My gosh, I'm in trouble for something that happened in the past I8 months and I haven't even been here. (clOa)
BEECKEN: The issue is were you aware, were you aware, and it is not good enough to find something after the fact, and I realize Jocher is going to say yeah...but when I look into this thing...like the chemistry knowledge thing, you may have been able to pump it up, or at least make sure that INPO thought it was, but I tried looking at things..this is not overnight stuff,...how effective has their raining been, how critical have they been 6f their manpower, this has just has been going on for a long time...I think a lot of the stuff was there.
What I am concerned about, I don't want chemistry to be an issue. There are some of those guys that, you can send them to training and they don't even pass. How are we dealing with that?
Some practices, like that filter change-out scenario, where the guy..
52
FISER: The guy checking the valve, and he swears be checked it, and it was in... Yeah, I remember it. That is one of the things I observed.
BEECKEN: The radmonitor effluent calculations not accounting for the vacuum.
FISER: Inaccurate corrections for vacuum. When we made changes, it was a directive, to raise the CVI setpoint, and we did it, and I asked no less then a half a dozen times, possibly a dozen times, "Are you absolutely sure that we have correctly built in the corrections for vacuum in the gas chamber?" I did that myself.
BEECKEN: Yeah, but it was a chemistry procedure.
FISER Yes I know, but that information had to come from the engineering group, and I received all kinds of assurances that this had been looked at in 1982, and the response was made and there was no problem. They convinced me that there was no problem. But I did ask the question.
Because I got into a similar type of thing at Arkansas, whenever we were purchasing a new system, around...it was after TM1. In 1982 that IE notice comes out. I am in the process of buying a new gaseous effluent monitoring system, and I asked that question, and they did not have it right, and I made them get it right before they shipped it. So I was well aware ofit, but all the information, all of it on paper back in 1982 indicated that problem was taken care of. It looked good, I bought it. I
<>, believed it. It was wong.
I feel like what I have done, Rob, I have taken the resources, the people, the money, the equipment, that you guys provided for me, and I ran the very best chemistry program we could n. I mean I did, and I had no findings, ever. Ever!
And I feel like I'm in trouble.
BEECKEN: Well the reason you are in trouble is, and I'm not looking at the big dollar thing.
Fundamentally you have got payroll, you have these people, OK.? You've got training assets, you've got all sorts of stuf, and you've got some allegiance groups, but what we look at is the performance on training issue, God damn that is not a budget issue... (cl3Oa)
FISER: Rob, the training people provided the training we asked for, and now we would have to correct the lesson plan and really get involved, but they did what we asked them to do. Bill had asked them to do something that was a little bit esoteric. If he had asked them to do...
BEECKEN: That's that immediate "pump up" training.
FISER: No, that's for the last five years. They do what I ask them to do. They do what Bill asked them to do. They did it, now...
53
U BEECKEN: Yeah, well my issue is, is the training cyclic? When I look at this training, now I got to go look at the retesting for fundamental knowledge, and they fail that-stuff...so he doesn't understand about conductivity and its relationship to total dissolved solids, or he doesn't understand pH, he doesn't understand why we use boric acid...which I think the analysts should have known that.
FISER: They should have known that.
BEECKEN: But they don't. They don't even know if boric acid should go up or go down over a cycle. They didn't know that.
FISER: The only thing I can say is I 8 months ago they knew it.
BEECKEN: You don't forget that, that's what I mean. I'll tell you the program has been less than fully effective for a long time, you were there, and something that I am looking at is not the big dollar thing, not the laser light shows and all that other stuff to put in, data collection, reverse heat exchangers...just a real fundamental, you've got following procedure problems down there, you've got the work ethic issue, I've got people that ask fundamental questions, and they are supposed to be RLA's. Fundamental questions relative to chemistry.
K> And I'm taking a look at those issues which are real Gary. Now is he really going to give a shit, come down and ...dammit, it doesn't decay!
Even with Jocher and his adjunct professors couldn't screw that up that quick. (146)
Well yeah I'm upset with you. I said O.K, if I bring Gary back, the same old routine. I guess I want to get somebody in my mind very very sharp in chemistry, a guy that is real effective, and is going to hold his people to standards, and I am not talking about, I just want to control the assets that we've got...we've got to do it right. And I don't think we are there yet We're not there now.
FISER: It is not there now.
BEECKEN: ...but for a long time chemistry has been has been reading through the lines and they have been winging it. Now they know that they can do an analysis, but they have no clue as to what the hell they are doing, is the way I see it.
Their ALARA consciousness is no good, they don't understand the reason...and thates not something you've got to have a $400,000 study on..-just have a little seminar on pH.
54
K> You don't need a contdctor, I don't want...it doesn't make sense...
U FISER: That's what I did! I did that, repeatedly.
BEECKEN: Well, they must be really stupid.
FISER: Either that...I don't know who they selected, I don't know who they talked to. I don't even know if they were asking primary questions to a guy on the secondary. I do not know, I have not seen the list of people. I'll bet that had something to do with it.
And the other thing is, I feel like, there is some passive aggressive behavior. I feel like they disliked Bill very much, and they are going to try to make him look bad. I suggested that to him.
BEECKEN: ...that damn Fiser, he didn't take care of the training, these guys are not qualified, and now we are paying for it,(159) he didn't do it.
Training is not something you can take a week before band, or month before hand, and make sure that he can pass in front of INPO. You can't do it in operations, you..
FISER: No, we did it all along.
BEECKEN: Then where the hell did all the knowledge go?
U FISER: That's a good question. When I was here, INPO asked them the same questions, there are not any new questions. There is nothing new out there.
BEECKEN: Thats why I'm..
FISER: I just want you to know that when I was here, we got it done, we would have got it done this time too, if I had been here.
BEECKEN: ...is one thing that I appreciate, but I want to get to where they can walk in at any time, they can walk down and go away duly impressed, and say "fuck, these guys are shaxp"(164)...
FISER: Well, that's what has happened.
BEECKEN: ..Every time I turn around, my perception is, every time they turn around in chemistry, I hear another world of garbage...What is going on? My God! This a. is terrible.
Do you know how long it takes, it took me, I had to almost write the chemistry response. I'm not real thrilled with Bill, rll tell you that right now.
55
-FISER: Well I'm going to tell you, I did not see the responses until after they went in, and INPO is going to throw them back in your face. There is no way they are going to let that go.
BEECKEN: Why?
FISER: Because, the data review thing...
BEECKEN: He blew it off.
FISER. You disavowed it, you cannot deny it I mean I have seen too many cases of it. I've pointed them out, all throughout the year. All throughout the year Rob. You are claiming that you have failed fuel when you don't, and you are not claiming you have it when you do. And, I am the one that was catching that and was telling the guys about it. If he denies a data review problem, they are going to stomp him in the dirt. And that is exactly what is going to happen, and you heard it here first, and I have not talked to one person at INPO about it. It is going to happen.
BEECKEN: Well let me, I have got to sit down and talk to Wilson about this. The perception I've got is that chemistry is broken, in my mind, but it is not one of these things that happens..Jocher didn't come in and break it. It was broken, weak, struggling and now I want to get it fixed. How am I going to get it fixed? Make the same guy that was here when I said it was weak, broken, in trouble, getting by, and let him back.
FISER: I got it done before, I could do it again, but I'm not here asking for the job.
BEECKEN: No, but I'm...
FISER: I just want you to understand that if I had of been here, we would have kept it...See, when I left and went to outage management, that's when Bill got at odds with Rob Richie, and Scott Watson, and started all this mess, and whispering in the NSRB's ear. If I had never left, Bill and I could have continued communication, I can talk to anybody, and we would have fixed this thing, and kept it fixed, and you would have never known about it. And that is the way it should have been done. And all this whispering behind my back would do nobody any good.
BEECKEN: Well, I'm not, I'm considering all the whispering behind your back and all the other brew hah shit, well I know what's been going on, and I'm looking. I'm looking...
BEECKEN: Here's the fundamental question, that Gary had to have known about it, or it wasn't fixed. Now that training issue, that's not an overnight, unless you are saying that it's malicious
...because his troupers wanted to submarine him. I don't know. Let me talk, I need to, have you sat down and, I assume you have, so I can talk to Wilson McArthur?
56
FISER: I don't think that there is anything that I have said that I have not told him.
BEECKEN: O.K., so I can sit down with Wilson and say, "Well, what do you think? Am I being a crass ass hole?"
Cause, my problem is that I want to fix it. Here is all I want to do, I can't have any friends I guess, but I want to fix chemistry, O.K.? Here's my problem, so O.K Jocher, Im not, he's not, he's not what I want, O.K.? So what about Gary, "Well shit, Gary was here...it looked like there was lots of frigging problems, at the basic level, the training, the methods, the use of procedures, performance, being held to an expectations, all that stuff. Who was there? Who was there? Who was there?
Who was there?
FISER ...I was there.
BEECKEN: No, I want to be successful, but you understand where I am, I want to fix it.
FISER: Do you understand where I'm at? I came into a program that was in trouble, when INPO came in a few weeks later, and there was six findings, and there was more but they just quit. And I fixed it, and we have not had a finding since. I left and got in trouble, and I feel like I'm being blamed for it.
a> BEECKEN: Well, no, you know where it's coming from, it's hay, this shit didn't transpire over night.(200) A lot of inherent weaknesses that were here that were here, that weren't properly dealt with?
FISER: It took a lot of tender loving care.
BEECKEN: Yeah, hell yeah, but it's not different then any of the other section managers had to be doing.
FISER. Your right, and that's what I did.
BEECKEN: Well, but the problems were there. The problems were there, that's why in a, now God damn it now Gary is fixing to fool right around and...that's my mind set.(203) That's the way I'm looking at thils whole problem, how's this going to work?
But let me, I'll go sit down, and I'll go through this with Wilson, O.K., and I want to, you know I don't, How close do you think is Wilson to Bill?
FISER: Close. They all are, everybody downtown, they all sit before him, he pukes and they cat, and they don't ask questions.
57
b ff BEECKEN: How do I get an objective viewpoint, It's my responsibility, I've got to make the...
FISER' Wilson is the closest you can get.
BEECKEN: But I want to make sure we get an objective viewpoint and I'm not getting it. You know I'm getting all the ... too. You know, this is dicked up, that is dicked up. So I want to make sure I am objective, and fully forthright, and Ill make the right choice. I've got to make the right choice, that is all I want to do is make the right fucken choice. I want chemistry to, I want a strong, solid, fundamental chemistry program. I don't want all the bells and whistles, I don't need any adjunct professors, but I want a good ...
FISER. See you Rob. (211)
DECEMBER 9,1992 FISER: ...INPO came in, and I understand that they did not even know what boron did in the cycle, and some ridiculous stiff like that You've heard about that?
> MULLENIX: Yeah, parts of it FISER What is your assessment of it? Im going to tell you mine, but I want to hear yours.
MULLENIX: Centrally in the fact that what that proves, or what has caused it?
FISER: Well...
MULLENIX: I haven't heard the details of who they asked, Gary. I read the reports, but I think the people that should answer those questions are the shift supervisors. The workers are really not trained that well in ..since 1989. They haven't had training.
FISER: Well, I know they haven't.
MULLENIX: I think that is one of the biggest downfalls.
FISER: At Arkansas, I had on the primary side, I hid a guy with a chemistry degree, who had been a school teacher for years and years and years. That's the caliber ofpeople I had...
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MULLENIX: But, but, O.K., you had a primary person and a secondary person, what did they do differently then what we do here? Do they actually participate in the training and retraining of people? Go down and talk to people, and perform a QA function, or like a semi hands on function, that we don't do here? They don't do that.
FISER. Yeah, you may be right. I told Bill that I felt like there may have been some passive aggressive behavior in the people, maybe hoping that he would not look so good. Do you feel like they are that mad at him?
MULLENIX: No. They were at first, I don't think they are right now.
Now, here is what I told Joe Bynum, in my kitchen, when he was over at one of my Christmas parties, the year that they closed the training center, "When the training center closed, the whole chemistry training program went down the tubes." It died. That was their retraining. They don't have anything anymore, because, when you leave them in the environment over here, and you expect them to get trained, or retrained, it doesn' happen. There are too many things going on, they are too short handed. They are not getting the focus on laboratory safety, laboratory process, theory. The...stuff that Ester taught, those things are just dying away.
FISER: You don't feel like we have a quantity or quality problem of people...
<2 MULLENIX: In training?
FISER: Yes.
MULLENIX: Yes, and I don't mean to cut Danny down...
DECEMBER 11, 1992 (cODb)
FISER: This issue that has, this is a different subject Don, this issue that has arisen on the setpoints for monitors, and the fact that we were...the response in, I guess in 1982, we did not do a thorough job investigating the vacuum, l '82 whatever.
lWhen we raised the setpoint, we did it a couple of times, I remember asking the question a half a dozen times, "Have we adequately addressed the vacuum issue, and corrected for the vacuum in the chamber?", and the response that you gave me several times was that it had all been looked into, it had been documented, we had responded to NRC, there is no problem, it is hunky-dory.
Where were you getting your information? Who would have looked into that back in '82?
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AMOS: Well, the '82 response, I wrote.
FISER: The buck stops here, right?
AMOS: Fortenberry signed it.
FISER: Well, what happened, how did we not..
AMOS: I thought '82 didn't even address vacuum, did it? I mean...didn't one come out later?
AMOS: No, the '82 one it was...
FISER: No, because that was in the process at Arkansas. I was buying a new effluent monitoring system after TMI, and that came out So I hit Eberline up about it, and not they had not corcted either, so I had them make a software correction.
AMOS: We primarily, two or three things, we primarily addressed it from the particulate and iodine issue, because, if you read that 1E notice, 90% of it talks about rotometers, measuring flow and stuff like that. I mean the piece out of the textbook was about rotorneters, mass flow change with the different types of rotometers and stuff like that, and we had that, that was addressed.
Alv The other thing. Palo Verde, the problem they had, the way I read it was, that they quantified V releases based on radmonitors, and we've never done that So thats the two respects that I looked at it I never did look at it from a setpoint, quote unquote.
FISER: O.K.
AMOS: There again, up until 1990, there was no setpoint problem.
FISER: Then we got into all these CVI's, they said raise it as high as you can get it, we did it, and then we were in trouble. (c28b)
JANUARY 22, 1993 McARTHUR: Tell me what is happening with you, Gary.
FISER: I've just been keeping my head down and working.
McARTHUR: One thing that I've got.. has Sam talked to you at all about Joe and Rob Beecken called and said that you're still on the head count at Sequoyah, and he said we need to get Gary on the head count downtown.
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FISER: They called and told you that?
McARTHUR: Yes, or if you are not going to then we need to work out something else.
I said, well a lot of that is up to Gary. Gary may want to take up some other kinds of challenges.
Have you had any talk at all with Sam about this?
FISER No I have not. He has not said a word about it.
McARTHUR: I asked him to do it, and this just really pisses me off. You need to decide what you want to do, now I am willing to keep you here, but you have to make a decision that this is what you want to do.
FISER: Well, I don't really have much of a choice.
McARTHUR: No, you could take up a challenge, you could say because you are going off the head count, that "I had been treated improperly." There is a lot of things you can do. I think, I don't know.
There is a lot of things you can do, because you've got some mixed responses to this, not that, I wouldn't suggest it, but...
The question is, do you want to stay where you are right now, or look around?
FISER: Yeah, I don't see that there is really any option to that McARTHUR: Can you instigate that on your end?
FISER: Beecken, when I went out and talked to him that morning, I felt like he hadn't really thought this thing through, and then he came back and said "Well, you know, Ill just talk to Wilson again and see if I am crazy", or something like that.
McARTHUR: He did, but he did not say anything different. He had that discussion with you, and he talked with you, but he said that the best thing for you was to stay downtown. (dO2Oa)
You can tell me what you want to tell me, and I can make the decision.
FISER: Well, I've been keeping my head down and tying to do a good job where I am.
McARTHUR: Well, every reading I get back, that is the case, but...
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Interrupted by waitress.
FISER: Where were we?
McARTHUR: You need to talk to Sam, and I do too.
FISER: I feel like what I need to do is just keep my head down and...
McARTHUR: In fact, Jocher made it very clear, he said, he will be coming back down here.
FISER: Yes.
McARTHUR: As far as, it is so confused right now. I personally think Jocher is doing a pretty good job out there, but I am not getting the same reading from others. (dO33a) Jocher is at odds with...Kingsley, I think it was unfortunate. I may agree that what he did was kind of embarrassing, but it wasn't anything that I would have...Apparently it embarrassed Kingsley, and he won't let it go.
Jocher knows about this, nobody had said, Wilson we can't bring Jocher back downtown. As far as I know we are going to bring him back down here.
>2 I talked to Leonard Bush about it, and he is evaluating whether to keep Jocher or to bring in somebody else, within TVA or outside.
That really the sites decision, I talked to Leonard about giving my recommendation.
I think that Jocher and Sam are not getting along, I don't know the reasons for it, I can't seem to find out. Jocher tells me that he's stabbing him in the back..
FISER: Yeah, they are really having problems, It is really sad for me to watch it and see what is going on. We can all speculate on what is going on, I know Sam has been very upset McARTHUR: Well, when guys work together that long, and then they have problems.
FISER: But anyway, I think what I would like to do is, it won't do any good to fight it, stay where I am at. I'll continue to support Sequoyah.
McARTHUR: Do you feel like you have got a good relationship between Jocher, do you spend most of your time with him or with Rob, or what?
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FISER: Well, both. Probably more time with Rob. The way we have it set up now, I am supposed to do my interfacing with Rob. Of course, some of it is with Bill, but we have been doing fine.
I'm a little concerned about him coming back downtown. My philosophy is, we are support for the sites, we are oversight for the sites, but our mission is for them to succeed. I'm not sure he is shares that view.
McARTHUR: You are satisfied to stay down here right now?
FISER. Yes. I was hoping that you were going to take one of those V.P. jobs ifpossible.
McARTHUR: I've been offered one...if I had wanted to be the senior scientist, I could have been the senior scientist If I had wanted to but I'm a nuclear power guy, I don't want to change.
FISER: I'm really quite hurt by Rob Beecken, I feel betrayed. You know, he encouraged me to go downtown, Pat Lydon wA-as very upset with Bill Jocher, he said, "I'm tired of this, I'm going to call Keuter and see if we can swap, do you want to go downtown?"
I told him that I had never thought about it, but...
McARTHUR: I don't think they shot straight with you, O.K?
FISER: You don't think so? That's what he said.
McARTHUR: That's just my own personal opinion-..see the results.
FISER: Then I got with Beecken and with Jack at the same time, and they said "Hay, you have done a great job, you deserve it, this is a good break for you, a great opportunity, then they cut me off.
McARTHUR: I was straight with you, I told you something was not right here.
FISER: You know when I talked to Rob, he speculated that the training problems and the data review problems, and he theorizes that that was going on when I was out there.
If that is the case, I have pulled off the miracle of the century, because I fooled, consistently, the best INPO has to offer.
You know, if they bring Jocher back downtown, we are going to be over head count.
McARTHUR: Yeah.
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FISER: Unless they put Sam out at the site.
McARTHUR: Yeah, I agree with you, it will be if we decide to keep you here. It is usual in this organization to make things as confusing as we can possibly make them.
I pointed that out to Bill when we talked about it, I said, what about Sam.
McARTHUR: That's why he asked me the other day what he did, he said "Do I still have a job downtown?".
That's keeping my, I made a deal, with the site, we were to rotate you two guys, O.K?, and that is what it was to me. I don't back down on a deal. Jocher is welcome to come back downtown, I may not be the happiest in the world about it, but I made a deal.
FISER: We've got it in writing from Bynum, and he reneged on the whole thing.
McARTHUR: He did. I hope I have been fair to you Gary, If I haven't I want you to tell me, through all this. It has been very difficult at times to know what the right thing to do was. I don't like being put in the position of kicldng somebody out of a position and not being the one that makes the decision to do it. (dO96a)
I feel like that I could quit real quick.
FISER: Then you would be in trouble with your wife.
McARTHUR: Maybe not. Sometimes I wonder what I am doing.
Have you thought about looking someplace else, or are you going to stay around here for a while?
FISER: I've looked, but I'm going to have to because, Ive been uined, look at what happened Have you ever been demoted?
McARTHUR: I never have.
FISER: How would you like to have that on your record, for no apparent reason?
McARTHUR: Sometimes you can explain it. I've interviewed people before for jobs, with an apparent demotion, of course you get only one side of the story, and you don't know which side to believe.
FISER: Honestly, I feel like if Bill had started the job downtown and supported me like I have supported him, it would have been fine. We would have had some rough spots...That's what I was 64
t> } trying to do, when I came down here I was going to show him what it was like to have a corporate U staff that really supported and tried to help.
McARTHUR: He was trying to block you most of the time. You could not do what you wanted to do probably.
What can I do? You have got to be honest with me.
FISER: If you don't bring Jocher back...I would like a shot at the corporate chemistryjob...
McARTHUR: I don't think that is possible.
FISER. Why?
FISER: Joe, I don't think Joe or Keuter would support it. I really don't think ..just being honest with you...I don't have a problem ifyou want to do it, but..
FISER: We are getting along with Brown's Ferry, we are getting along with the sites.
McARTHUR: They weren't getting that feedback, the guys in the organization were saying "Gary doesn't give us direction".
They wouldn't say anything, not to me, they say that you are not talking to them. But I think that U3 Joe got whatever story be got from Jack Wilson and Rob Beecken, and he also got input from Pennington, and also the NUS audit says, "it is kind of like the guy is not there." That is exactly what the NUS audit guy said.
I asked the question, I said, "Tell me how you think Gary Fiser is doing". The lead guy said it is kind of like he is not there.
FISER: Unfortunately, I feel like there is a bit of truth to that. If you will look in December, my wife fell down the stairs and broke her sacrum, in January my father came down with cancer, in April my mother-in-law had a heart attack in my house, and moved in with us, in June my father had a heart attack and never recovered from it, in September my mother had major reconstructive back surgery, in November my Dad died, and he died within 72 hours8.333333e-4 days <br />0.02 hours <br />1.190476e-4 weeks <br />2.7396e-5 months <br /> of the time I met with NUS and the shrink McARTHUR He did?
FISER: Yes.
McARTHUR: That is what he came away with.
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FISER: Well you see, Pennington, I started to tell but I didn't, because I felt like I could hide it, but obviously I wasn't able to. --.
So there is truth to that Wilson, but I think that there is an explanation for it.
McARTH`UR What I am saying, to answer your question...I can go, I can support you, but I don't think I can win. I don't mind getting Keuter and Joe with you and talking. If you want to do it I will do it.
FISER But what you are telling me really I ought to do is to continue to work where I am, and look elsewhere. (d136a)
McARTHUR: Maybe it would give you a chance to see if they support you. The biggest support is Bill Lagergren...
FISER Well, I feel like they have really treated me unfairly. (b206)
McARTHUR: Well, you know what you it may be that you really need, I tried to explain this to Jocher...! don't know how long Keuter will be there. I don't know if that is very encouraging or not?
& FISER: Well, it is.
McARTHUR: Alrightee, I appreciate your time.
JANUARY 22,1993 HARVEY: ...it's Wilson's goal to bring Bill back down here, it always has been, and you were to go back to Sequoyah.
FISER: That option has basically been taken away.
HARVEY: I don't think so by Wilson.
FISER: No, but what he said was, "Gary, you can go back out there and raise all kinds of cain, and tell them that this wasn't fair, and demand that you get your position back". But, he said, "1 wouldn't advise you to do that".
66
71 So what he is saying is...and he asked me if I wanted to do. I told him we only had one option, and j that is for me to get tucked in out here, and keep my head down, and do as good ajob as I can do.
He said, "Good, Im glad. I'm glad to here that."
He lead me to believe he would take care of it. Then he asked me if I had discussed it with Sam. I said no, and said, "Why?".
He said, "Well, I told him this two weeks ago, and I told him to talk to you". That is why I thought he might be mad at you.
Honestly Sam, I thought it was a done deal anyway.
HARVEY: ...The guy that is going to be in this job ought to make the decision. Now, if you are asking me about Gary's performance, I'd say he has done everything he has been asked to do. There has not been a problem. I want to make that clear, that there has not been any problems...I said, if you make this decision, I said I'm happy about it. I said if you are going to tell me I'm going to make that decision, I'll make it, but...
FISER. Well, I got the distinct feeling Sam that he had already made the decision. That is why he came to me and wanted to make sure it was OK I've got a feeling it is a done deal. I've got a feeling that it is.
fi>J HARVEY: I don't know. (d309a)
FISER: I don't either...
FISER: On this other thing, I don't see anyway else to deal with Sequoyah's refusal to own up to their end of the bargain.
HARVEY: On?
FISER Swapping Bill and I. So just go ahead and tell Wilson..to make it permanent. I don't know what to do other than that, it that is the only option I have. (d349a) Other then get in here and buckle down, do your job, and try to find something else. And it sounds like I better do that just in case we get into a head count problem whenever Bill comes back.
Now Bill says he is not coming back until September, six months or something like that.
HARVEY: Now, I'm not going to be acting in this job that long. I don't want the damn thing to begin with. I do not want this job, I'm in a no win situation as long as I am acting...
FISER: You don't think you and Bill could get things worked out?
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HARVEY: I thinkl..
FISER: Honestly Sam I don't think Bill can wait that long. I told Bill I didn't think he would last long, because I know he won't put up with that. He won't put up with Sequoyah. Hell blow...
JANUARY, 22,1993 PHONE CALL TO WILSON McARTHLUR REGARDING PG-8.
FISER: Hay Wilson, this is Gary. I just wanted to let you know that I did talk with Sam a little bit ago about our discussion earlier. I told him that I had told you that I felt like I had only one option.
Even though you listed two, one was to go out to Sequoyah and raise a raucous, and the other was to just settle in here and settle down and do a good job and wait for the powers to be to change.
And so I told him that is what I had decided to do.
So I don't know if I need to do anything else, go talk to Ben, or if there is anything that I need to do, if there is, let me know. But lets just go ahead and make it permanent, and we will make it So let me know if I need to do anything.
Thanks, bye.
& MARCH 24,1993 FISER: I appreciate...Bill said you talked to Bynum yesterday.
McARTHUR: Yeah.
FISER: I got your comments.
McARTHUR: Well, you know, that is what I am supposed to be doing.
FISER: Bill said that he mentioned that there was not a position for me in chemisty at Sequoyah?
McARTHUR: Well, what it really came down to, he said that Don is probably going out to the site.
He wants to go on and define the organization, I think he organization is going to end up being like Joe is interested in doing. Joe said he did not know if Charles' organization is what he wants in chemistry. So that means that somebody will be in the Chemnistry'Manager position, and Don will probably fill one of those direct report positions. I assume that is what he has in mind.
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So that means we will have a defined organization, and we will have something we can get into. So if Don is there, that spot is open here, and we'll put you in it.
FISER: Is Bynum upset with me?
McARTHUR: I think that he is getting a lot of input, rm just being straight with you, he didn't say he was upset with Gary. His comment was, "What are you going to do with Gary?"
I said, "Well, we were supposed to have a transition with the site." rm just not one to withhold the guy's support, get him off site and not take a him back. I can afford a position, I want to make sure the guy has a place to go, so I kept him here hoping we could work something out. (f242b)
The workout was going to be, somebody was going to go to the site, Don was going to the site, and that would leave a slot open. And, so he says, "O.K" I didn't get any comment about it FISER: Bill made a comment that made me wonder ifhe was mad.
McARTHUR: I'm sure he has heard everything everybody else has had to say. It is like this, I believe that people are trying to hide the problems at Sequoyah. I can't sit here and tell you that for sure.
I told Joe, 'You know, right after that Gary left for outage management, so if you want me to say that the guy is going bad, I can't say that, because everything I've seen..
FISER: I wasn't in chemistry.
McARTHUR: Yeah, that's right. So, I don't know where all the mess is coming from, I wish I could say, but it is certainly at the site. One thing for sure it is at the site...if I could pinpoint it I would tell you so you would have something to fight. I don't know where it is.
FISER: Bill said that Bynum said, "Yeah, we are going to have a Chemistry Superintendent but, you better not try for it because if he does lie will lose". I just wondered was that in a threatening tone or is he...?
McARTHUR: No.
FISER: So he is not upset with me personally?
McARTHLTR: That was not, what he was saying was that you had been in that position before. He was not threatening, in no way was it said in a way to say that this guy did not perforn. What he 69
I 7-was saying was that we were going to find somebody for that position that it would not be anybody I know around here.
FISER: O.K., Ijust wondered. Ijust wanted to make sure that if somebody is upset with me that I go and get it worked out and understand it.
McARTHUR. IfI knew he told you..
FISER: He was upset, until he put two and two together and realized...
McARTHUR: What I am afraid of though, is that whatever that circle is, that circle is not being closed. Everybody I've talked to is very wishy-washy about it. That is typical of what I have seen.
I'd rather have somebody look at me and say,..
intemuption FISER; I appreciate you Wilson.
McARTHUR: Well, IT tell you these are difficult times. Things are not, the problem is, it is just like this organization thing, if you were allowed to be put in a position where, you know.. Ill tell you what I don't understand, when I was told, Joe was coming down and said, "Do we want to go to
'> a chemistry-radcon organization?" I said, maybe at some point we want to do that, but here is the reasons we shouldn't do it now ...a lot of it had to do with Brown's Ferry, things were not stabilized in chemistry out here, with all the corrective actions and things. So I said, "You know, the plan is to look at this again in about six months, maybe.' He said, "I agree." I got a memo in my file. The next day...
FISER: You told me...
McARTHUR: What happened yesterday, he said I want a new Radcon-Chemistry organization, al sites, a chemistry manager and a radcon manager, the organizations like they exist now...That is what he wants. So that is what we are going to do.
John does not want it, so they are not going to like it down at Browns Feny, but somewhere along the line management makes the decision, you've got to go do it.
But what my point is, we don't get involved in those kinds of decisions enough. Now I don't have any problems going that way, but we need to sit down.. Now why would somebody teu me we are not going to do this? That's what this means.
FISER: But I appreciate you.
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See you.
APRIL 9,1993 McARTHUR: How are things going with you, Gary?
FISER: Well, I'm just looking for ajob.
McARTHUR: You've got this six month thing. I think that was very unfortunate. I'm still trying to figure out how TVA operates.
FISER. I know you are.
McAkRTHUR If we are ever able to run our own organizations, I think that is going to make the difference here. In fact in this meeting yesterday that Oliver was in ..I learned one thing, you have got to figure out how to do it right. The first month I was here, we identified the fire protection problem, so we went out and developed a corrective plan. In my employee appraisal for that year, they said, "The biggest problem in Technical Programs is the fire protection problem". It was a negative, O.K.? I'm saying to myself, wait a minute, we identified it, we put in a..
The chemistry thing, whatever the difference of opinion about how significant the problem was, at
- J least it was identified and a corrective action plan put together. Kingsley said this to me, he said, "I'm still pissed off about the chemistry problems".
I'm saying to myself, How do you do this, if you find a problem, do you just not say anything?
That is the message you kind of get. (g37a) It shouldn't be that way, it should be, if you've got a problem, bring it out and talk, you know.
I think what the message is though, I think he wants you to bring it to him. And, I have never operated...when I work with somebody, thats the message I catch. If he catches me in the hall, and says hay have you got any problems...well, yeah we've got some problems, you know. Then you tell your boss right away that you told him.
FISER: But when he says, Wilson, "chemistry problems", what is he referring to? INPO?
McARTHUR: I suppose. He hit me on that one, he hit Jim Teague on Maintenance...he says I get very good feedback from site on how maintenance performs, Corporate Maintenance, but we have a real serious maintenance problem, and that is your fault Jim thought he was being built up, and wham.
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I wish you a lot of luck, I hope you...things go well. I'll say right here in front of Ronnie, if that had been my decision, that's not what we had planned. (gO53a)
FISER. Iknow that.
McARTHUR: And you hate to say that You are supposed to support your bosses completely.
Even, in the same situation, it wasn't Dan's decision.
FISER Iknowthat McARTHUR. It's tough.
FISER: He's mad at chemistry, I think he is just on a temper tantrum McARTHUR: Let me know what you find, O.K.? I did check with Philadelphia Electric yesterday, I heard that they had an open chemistry position, they told me that they didnt They were cutting back also, and if they were going to promote, they would promote within. Apparently there is some kind of problem in chemistry. I don't know if you have heard anything or not?
I've been looking around for positions that were out there.
FISER: Well, keep looking. Bill is looking too, we will find something. You take care of yourself.
McARTHUR: Good look to you. (g075a)
PERSONAL STRESSES Taking a temporary job in outage management, May, 1991 Long hours during the outage (95+ hrs/wk), Nov, 1991 Wife fell and broke her sacrum, Dec, 1991 Going back to a "troubled" group, Jan, 1992 Father's cancer, Jan, 1992 Taking a temporary job as Corp Chem Mgr, March 1992 Mother in law's heart attack in my house, and long recovery, April, 1992 Father's heart attack (June '92), and went into a comatose state until his death Getting no raise, Sept 1992 Mothers back surgery, Oct 1992 Father's death, Nov 7, 1992 SQN telling McArthur that they do not want me back, Nov, 1992 72
b Being demoted and working for a direct report, Dec 1992 Not being placed in the job (PG-8) as promised, March 1993 Having my job at SQN surplused and being placed in ETP, April 1993 Finding out that my job had really not been surplused, April, 1993 SQN telling me I had been selected for the PG-10 Chemistry Manager, July, 6, 1993 SQN telling me that I was not going to get the job after all, July, 9, 1993 Getting my official termination notice, still under the false pretense that my job was surplused, August 13, 1993 MAY 5, 1993 I called Mr. Charles Kent, the Chemistry RadCon Manager at Sequoyah, and left a message asking if he had made any decisions about whether he was going to have a Chemistry Manager of not.
MAY 7, 1993 I left another message at 1452, asking to speak to him regarding some rumors I had heard regarding my old job.
MAY 10, 1993 Charles Kent called and told me that the organization had been standardized, and that it did contain a RadCon and Chemistry Manager job. He further said that he was recruiting for the Technical Support Manager job. He further stated that Rob Beecken was not of the opinion that I was not aggressive enough.
JUNE 7, 1993 At 1430, Mr. Jim Bates of INPO called, to tell me that TVA had contacted INPO last week to see if anyone was interested in the Chemistry Manager's job at Sequoyah Nuclear Plant He said that Mr.
Charles Kent had called the Radiation Protection Manager at INPO to see ifhe knew if anyone was interested. The RP section then went to the Chemistry section with the message.
JULY 3, 1993 Charles Kent beeped me about 0840 from his office at Sequoyah. He asked how things were going, and wanted to know if I had found ajob yet. I told him I had not yet found one. Charles then asked me if I would agree to come out to Sequoyah and meet with the new Plant Manager.
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I I told him that I would be happy to, and asked him what was going on. Charles then told me that he U intended to fill the Chemistry Manager's position at Sequoyah. He then told me not to get ny hopes up too high, that it was not a sure thing as of yet, but that he felt pretty confident about it.
Charles mentioned that he had filled Mr. Ken Powers in to some extent on the circumstances about my case, and that he was very understanding and supportive of whatever Charles wanted to do.
W'e agreed to talk again on Tuesday morning.
JULY 6, 1993 At approximately 1040 Mr. Charles Kent and I met to discuss the possibility of my return to Sequoyah. He mentioned that he knew what had gone on before, and that I was not treated fairly.
He had arranged for me to meet with the new Plant Manager, Mr. Ken Powers, in order to see if the two of us had compatible philosophies regarding the running of the chemistry program at Sequoyah.
Met with Mr. Ken Powers (and Charles Kent) and found him to be a very pleasant and likable
<2 person. We had no differences in our approach to various scenarios and issues that were raised during the interview.
He then got up from his chair, looked at Charles, and told him that he had no objections to me taking thejob, and told him to get on with placing me in the position.
Charles then quoted me a salary of over S81,000 per year, and said he was placing me in the Chemistry manager's slot, and said it was a PG-10. I told him at that time that he would have to work through the Employee Transition Program personnel Mr. Jim Mannis and or Mr. Ron Brock He agreed to give them a call right away.
He said for me to plan on being at Sequoyah on Thursday morning, ready to start work. He then asked me to be very quiet, and "lay low" for a day or two so that he could arrange the details. He did not want any news of this transaction to leak out until it was a done deal. This was to prevent my anyone from having an opportunity to oppose the move until it was "too late".
He said he was going to ask Wilson McArthur to "talk to the right people" and make sure the coast was clear.
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t.y} I immediately questioned him about the possibility of McArthur talking to Keuter or Bynum. He said that I did not have anything to worry about, because Wilson would talk to the "right" people.
I said O.K. and agreed to wait for his phone call before showing up to work I thanked him for standing up for me when it obviously was not a popular position to be in. I told him that his intervention was an answer to prayer, since now it was not going to be necessary for me to pursue legal help.
JULY 6, 1993 At about 9:30 pmn Charles called me and said that everything had not come together yet, but he still wanted me to plan to come to Sequoyah Thursday morning and resume my duties as the Chemistry Manager.
He said that he had received the approval of the Sequoyah Site Vice President, Mr. Fennech. He had also called Dr. Wilson McArthur and discussed my return with him. He said that Wilson was very supportive of the decision. Wilson is going to approach the "right" people tomorrow and make sure that there is no serious opposition to my return.
(I do not know who the "right" people are, but I think, based on the following that at least one is Mr. Kingsley).
o> Charles then proceeded to say that if Mr. Kingsley had a "target" on my back, that we would have to rethink the whole thing.
He then told me the reason that he wanted me to lay low for another day was to give him time to get the whole thing in place so that it would be too late for Mr. Keuter, or anyone else, to mount an offensive against me.
JULY 7, 1993 I talked to Charles on the phone Wednesday evening and asked him if I was still to report to Sequoyah in the morning, and he said for me to wait. He simply indicated that there were still a few details to be worked out, and he would call me when he was ready for me to come.
JULY 9, 1993 Charles beeped me around 1130. I gave him a call, and asked what was going on. He said that it was not going to work out, and he would go over the details with me over the phone or face to face.
I told him that I would prefer to do it face to face. He then asked me to come out to sequoyah and meet with him at 1430.
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FISER I talked to Lamar this morning. He is out in the program this morning, much to his dismay.
KENT: Yeah.
FISER: What a place.
KENT: Well, let me tell you what...
FISER What happened?
KENT: ...what has transpired. Well, I told you that I had talked to Fennech and he said to talk to you.
FISERMO KENT: I felt fairly comfortable at what I was going to get, and I think if it were left up to Wilson, I would have got it.
F1SER: Yeah.
KENT: He in turn talked to other folks, I don't know how many other folks..he was trying to find out like we were trying to find out, is there something like Kingsley putting...
FISER: A target on my back.
KENT: That would say, "Hay it doesn't matter where he is going to be dead meat". I'm not kidding you, it was like throwing a rock in a homet's nest. rm trying to be honest with you. They came out of the woodwork. Comments came out of the woodwork.
FISER: Who did?
KENT: I don't know, I don't really know...but I know several people called Fennech. And I asked Wilson to not let anyone talk to Fennech until I get back with him. But several people talked to Fennech. So Bob and I talked and decided it would not be fair to you. I know that sounds strange, but it would be like a baby bird that fell out of the nest, and putting it back in the nest. That mamma bird would pick you to death, and I think you are doomed from the start (iO16a) 76
( FISER: Why hasn't anybody ever told me about this. I just can't figure out where all these hornets fIVJ are coming from, and why they haven't been honest in the past.
I guess that is what I am most dismayed about, not really surprised. Well in a way I was, because I figured I had enough friends. You know, that they just have not been straight forward and honest KENT: Well, I really wanted to give you a shot at it, because I thought you could do a good job, but I don't think you could survive. Honestly, because there would be so much skepticism, criticism, that I believe every time something didn't go perfectly, they would say you are responsible.
I don't know what other things you are pursuing, but I'm trying to be honest with you, I think it would be an unpleasant experience for you no matter what.
FISER: Did you get any feedback from Kingsley, that you know of?
KENT: No. Fenneck did not talk to Kingsley, I don't think anybody talked to Kingsley. But a lot of people say Kingsley is the one, but I'll tell you what I suspect now. Somebody was telling Kingsley about all the problems at Sequoyah...he has been given that perception probably on purpose because of all the things that have transpired. But he thinks that Sequoyah chemistry is in bad shape, so what he is, I'm sure, I feel that he knows the problems, you were out here. Jocher came out here and replaced you, because things were all hosed up, and it got worse instead of getting better, and Kingsley said "Just get rid of both of them".(053a)
I think somebody went him, he doesn't know you, he didn't know Jocher. He might have heard Jocher's reputation, because Jocher has got a big mouth. I know he has been in a meeting or two where Jocher...
FISER: Yeah, he did not like that KENT: I think that Kingsley may have very well said, well what do you want to do, he says..."Well, just get rid of both of them".
And everybody now is saying, well Kingsley said to do it But, if I go to the plant manager and talk him into supporting me, and he says, "Yes", I cannot now say that the plant manager told me to do it. That is not the way I do business.
So I don't think that Kingsley...
(Note: Much more conversation is on this tape, but nothing important).
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141W JULY 149 1993 FISER: Hay.
McARTHIJR: How are you doing? How did they get you in here?
F1SER: You feeling airight?
McARTHUR: I'm feeling fair for an old man. If they will just leave me alone and let me do my work.
FISER: Have you been cut on enough?
McARTHUR: Yes I have, for a while. They have been frying to do little more though.
FISER: Cut?
McARTHUR: Not cut, but give me radiation. I told them I would just stand on top of Browns Ferry reactor...
~2 How are you doing? Where do you spend your~ time now?
FISER: It is over on Amnicola.
McARTHUR: Are you looking at things internally, or what?
FISER: Mainly exlernally, although I got that call from Charles, but then things fell through. 'Who is torpedoing me?
McARTHUR: Well, I think it really comes all the way from, in fact I don't know for sure who, but I'll tell you things, I don't know, I just know that...
FISER: I don't want to know when it is all over.
McARTHUR: ...when Charles'phone call said check it out and tell me how you think it will go.
I talked to Keuter and I talked to Joe Bynum..
FISER.c You talked to Keuter9 78
McARTHUR. Yeah. I had to, these two guys were involved in it. They just all seemed to, I don't think it will work. I don't know if that comes from information from above them, or whiat But I told him, I told Kent.
FISER: Yeah, I know you did.
McARTHUR: I was supportive, but I said "Gary is going to be bucking against a lot of people.
You have got to recognize that is the case. Do you want to do that?" I think when it got down to the final analysis, he said, "I wont do it".
It is unfortunate, but it is the kind of thing that happens.
McARTHUR: So you know, I told him, in fact he went to Fennech. I have no idea if Fennech recommended to him.
It is unfortunate, because Charles' feeling was that you could do the job.
FISER: Well if I remember correctly that was yours too.
v McARTHUR: Yeah. His attitude was that we'd give him a shot. It is a shock, too many people involved, the decision is coming from too high a level.
FISER: Well I couldn't figure out if...but if you talked to Keuter, I mean, but what does Keuter know. He never has talked to me.
McARTHUR: Joe's comment was...
FISER: You are talking about Joe Bynum?
McARTHUR: Yeah.
FISER: What, I have no idea?
McARTHUR: He just responded, I think we just do that around here, we just say something.
McARTHUR: It is unfortunate.
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FISER: They have pretty well ruined me.
W McARTHUR: You think so?
FISER: Oh yeah. Don't you? Oh come on, you have always been honest with me.
McARTHUR: ...in TVA, with the current level of management, it would be very difficult for you to find a position. If somebody called me from outside about you, I'd do the same thing I would do with Jocher.
It is just unfortunate that the decisions are made where they are made. We are not astute in how we handle people. I wish it had been my decision, but quite often it is not my decision.
FISER: Or Bill's. It wasn't Bill Jocher's either.
McARTHUR: ...it is just a heck of a way for a company to handle people. It is discouraging...
FISER Well, my inclination right now is to take them to court.
McARTHUR: What I would do...
FISER: I talked to Lagergren about it and he said...that you need to be real careful about that because even if you win, it might not be good.
McARTHUR: If you loose...in fact that is what I told Bill Jocher, what happens is, nobody wants you. They don't want somebody that is a trouble maker. Even though you are defending your own manlyhood, the right to have ajob and those kinds of things. That is not the way people look at it.
That is a big decision you have to make...a lot of companies will not hire you if you have a legal history.
That is the thing you have got to keep in mind.
FISER O yeah, that is what I told Bill. I said if I were going to do it, I'm going all the way, and get out of nuclear power...
McARTHUR: Have you had any contacts out in industry?
FISER: A few.
McARTHUR: How is it looking? Anything really leading the pack? Anything I can help you with?
s0
FISER: Not until it gets a lot closer. When it gets a lot closer then what it is right now then rll get you involved.
McARTHUR: Have you been out on interviews?
FISER: I've turned two down out of state, because I just hate the thought of moving my family. It was early on, and I decided I would try to find a business to buy, or find something with TVA.
But with this crap going on still. rIm tired of it. I'm tired of these two guys, Keuter and I guess Bynum, putting a knife in my back They have had their say, rIm fixing to have mine.
McARTHURL This could be rough.(i282a) I don't know how I would respond, not being in your shoes...
FISER: They are just a bunch of snipers, cowards, hiding in the trees and shooting me in the back I feel like ifthey would ever come forward and talk, we'd fix the problems McARTHUR: The biggest thing is that you don't know where it is coming from, for sure. I don't.
I can only speak for the people that are talking to me. I can't tell how high itgoes. I have no idea Good luck to you, let me know if I can help you as far as a job. I'll be honest with them, I'1l tell them you were, I guess they will know the story about why you are leaving. I don't know, maybe they wont..
AUGUST 13,1993 Mr. Fred Vichich with TVA's Inspector General called ant threatened disciplinary action against me unless I agreed to meet with them regarding Jocher's DOL case, no matter what my attorney had .
recommended.
AUGUST 13, 1993 Mr. Ben Easley met with me to present me with the final package of termination papers.
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TAPES TAB3LE OF CONTENTS aOO0a-069a Bill Jocber discussing the results of the NUS evaluation with me.
aOO0a-ENDa Conversation with 'Wilson McArthur, while driving to his house, when he told me that lwas being replaced with Sam, and was not going back to Sequoyah.
aOOOb-080b Wilson McArthur, discussing the possibility of a reverse loan with INP0, as well as more on how things got out of hand.
aOS0b-endb Nothing, simply an old recording.
bOO~a-043a Wilson McArthur, discussing Bill Burke coming to TVA in a reverse loan to corporate, or as the Chemistry Manager at Sequoyah.
b044a-055a Summary of discussions with Lagergren.
bO55a-066a Debbie's feelings, Jocher-Keuter-Beecken conspiracy.
b0662-116a Discussion with Wilson McArthur.
bll62-159a Ben Easley b175a-208a Wilson McArthur b208a-239a Bill Lagergren (I11/20/92) b239a-255a Wilson McArthur (1 1/20/92)
-ST23aed Jack Wilson bOOOb-014b Wilson McArthur, still working on something with Sorrelle, 11/24/92.
K>
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bOl6b-160b Lagergren and I going over the discussions with Jack Wilson, and going over the Kingsley/Waters/BarkerfMcArthur issue regarding the letter to Waters.
b16Ob-180b Wilson McArthur bl8Ob-endb Blank cOOOa-214a Rob Beecken c2l4a-296a Jim Mullenix cOOOb-078b Don Amos (in Debby Bodine's presence) discussing the monitor setpoint problem.
dOOOa-220a Lunch with Wilson McArthur.
d222a-283a 112293 Ben Easley, in his office, discussing my case, options, advising me to take the PG-8.
d283a-298a Sam Harvey on the CTC, and training film issue.
d298a-enda Sam Harvey, I told him I wanted the PG-8.
dOOOb-019b Phone call to Wilson accepting the job.
dO2Ob-105b 'Discussion with Ben, outside the main entrance, about McArihur malcing me an offer. February 12, 1993.
dlO5b-end Discussion with Bill Jocher, too weak to hear, needs enhancing. Goetcheus called and said that they were going to have a Chemistry Manager at Sequoyah, and bet Bill a lunch.(dI8lb) eOOOa-200a Bill Jocher discussing Pat Lydon, the negative pressure in the gas chamber of the radmonitors, also discussed conversations with Beecken on the radmnonitor issue, assigning blame to engineering. (e093a) Rob Richie confirmed this on the tape. (elO~a) March 4, 1993.
e203a-224a Bill and Tom Mc~h-ath on the low pressure extraction steam line. March 5, 199.3.
e227a-end Bill blasting Goetcheus, and supporting me being placed in the Sequoyah Chemistry Manager position, morpholine Vs copper. Meeting with 83
Lagergren and Lorek solidifying support for me taking the Sequoyah chemistry job back.
eOOOb-endb Blank!
f0OOa-204a Ben Easley on the swap, and the head count problem, Bynum placing Wilson in a bind, relating to me that he knew something very wrong was fixing to happen. March 22,1993.
f204a-fO05b Jocher and I discussing a meeting that took placebetween McArthur and Bynun.
Joe does not want me back out at Sequoyah, and if I try, he will loose. Bill expressing his support for me, my record, (1253a) my conversation with Al Black (0319a). Wilson not being in a position to take a strong stand with Keuter regarding me, because he if facing radiation treatments, surgery, etc.
Not posting Don's position, and placing me in it. (f341a) March, 23, 1993.
f007b-030b Ben saying that they had no intention, from the beginning, of honoring the letter and returning me to Sequoyah.
fU32b-231b Me telling Jocher that with Gordon Rich here, that they may get rid of Bill. March 24, 1993. Discussed the Watts Bar emergency exercise drill, and my functions. (fl28b) f233b-270b McArthur telling me about his discussions with Bynum.
gOOOa-082a McArthur discussing the RIF.
gO8Sa-enda Week of APRIL 5, 1993 Ben Easley discussing me being placed in ETP. Wilson was told to take action on Jocher and Fiser (g169a), it came from Kingsley (gl8Oa). It was supposed to be a termination, but he intervened and arranged for a surplus.
hOOOa-189a APRIL 9, 1993 Charles Kent, wanting me to consider a temporary position. Says he does not have a head count, to fill my position, and does not have an approved organization. I told him that if I took a temporary position that it would eat up my ETr clock. I asked him if it would hurt him if I came out there (9O85a),and he said that there was no bad blood at the site against me.
Telling him I applied on the Technical Support job. (h112a) I asked him to talk to Rob Beecken about me. (h141a) iOOOa-197a JULY 9, 1993 Charles Kent telling me that I did not have the job.
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( '.
> il98a-305a JULY 14, 1993 Me telling Wilson that Bynum shot me in the back.
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