ML20212B832
| ML20212B832 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Braidwood  |
| Issue date: | 07/31/1986 |
| From: | Atomic Safety and Licensing Board Panel |
| To: | |
| References | |
| CON-#386-276 OL, NUDOCS 8608070245 | |
| Download: ML20212B832 (200) | |
Text
98/GWA'L UN11ED STATES O NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION IN THE MATTER OF: DOCKET NO:
BRAIDWOOD STATION 50-456/457-OL UNITS 1 4 2 COMMONWEALTH EDISON COMPANY (EVIDENTIARY HEARING)
O LOCATION: J0LIET, ILLINOIS PAGES: 9486 - 9694 l
DATE: THURSDAY, JULY 31, 1986
/
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t ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
OfficialReporters 444 North CapitolStreet
$0 Ob$k!$0[UkS5 Washington, D.C. 20001 pgg (202)347-3700 NATIONWIDE COVERAGE
9486
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1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3 BEFORE THE ATOMIC SAFETY AND LICENSING BOARD 4
-_________________x 5 :
In the Matter of: :
6 : Docket No. 50-456 COMMONWEALTH EDISON COMPANY : 50-457 7 :
(Braidwood Station, Units 1 :
8 and 2) :
__________________x 9
10 Page: 9486 - 9694 11 College of St. Francis g-) 12 500 North Wilcox
(_/ Joliet, Illinois 60431 13 Thursday, July 31, 1986 14 15 The hearing in the above-entitled matter convened 16 at 10:00 A. M.
17 BEFORE:
18 JUDG E HERBERT GROSSMAN, Chairman 19 Atomic Safety and Licensing Board U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission 20 Washington, D. C.
21 J UDG E RICH ARD F. COLE, Member, Atomic Safety and Licensing Board 22 U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission Washington, D. C.
23 J UDG E A. DIXON CALLIHAN, Member, 24 Atomic Safety and Licensing Board U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission
/~N 25 Washington, D. C.
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9487 1 APPEARANCES:
2 On behalf of the Applicant:
3 MICHAEL I. MILLER, ESQ.
JOSEPH GALLO, ESQ.
4 ELENA Z. KEZELIS, ESQ.
Isham, Lincoln & Beale
$ three First National Plaza Chicago, Illinois 60602 6
7 On behalf of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission Staff:
8 GREGORY ALAN BERRY, ESQ.
9 U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission 7335 Old Georgetown Road 10 Bethesda, Maryland 20014 11 On behalf of the Intervenor:
12 ROBERT GUILD, ESQ.
13 14 15 16 17 18 19 l
l 20 i
21 22 23 4
j 24
(} 25 Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 EXHIBIT'INDEX MARKED RECEIVED 2 Staff Exhibits Nos. 15 and 16 9508 9560 Applicant's Exhibit No.104 9560
- 3 Intervenors' Exhibit No. 85 9586 9586 4
TESTIMONY OF RICHARD L. MARTIN
, 5 j CROSS EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. BERRY: 9506 1 7 BOARD EXAMINATION BY JUDGE GROSSMAN: 9533 8
CROSS EXAMINATION 9 (Continued.)
BY MR. BERRY: 9538 10 BOARD EXAMINATION 11 BY JUDGE GROSSMAN: 9543 es 12 BOARD EXAMINATION e
BY J UDGE COLE: 9551 13 BOARD EXAMINATION j 14 BY JUDGE GROSSMAN: 9553 15 BOARD EXAMINATION 1 BY JUDG E CALLIHAN: 9553 16 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 17 BY MR. GUILD 9562 18 RECROSS EXAMINATION
, BY MR. GALLO 9597 l 19 20 TESTIMONY OF LAWRENCE A. PERRYMAN i
21 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. GUILD 9622 22 23 l 24 l(:) 25 l
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1 JUDGE GROSSMAN: 2he hearing is reconvened.
2 This is the 47th day of hearing.
3 Before we continue with the witness, we're going 4 the rule on that motion for reconsideration.
5 We've discussed this together, the other members of 6 the Board and I, and we've decided that it would be 7 unfair at this point to require Intervenors to brief the 8 issue and not to have Intervenors hold Applicant to its 9 proofs on this matter.
10 Again, I had made my personal evaluation of the 11 strength of this issue when Mr. Guild presented his 12 case, which, to a large extent, was undiscovered at the 13 time, and I had hoped that perhaps hearing what it was 14 that Mr. Gallo testified to that he had --
15 MR. GALLO: Hunter.
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -- in rebuttal, that --
17 MR. GALLO: I'm sorry.
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -- perhaps he would have 19 reconsidered; but his opinion is obviously different as 20 to the strength of his case, and he's certainly entitled 21 to hold Applicant to the proof.
22 I found the motion persuasive to a certain extent, 23 except with regard to the matters at the bottom of Page 24 3 and the top of Page 4 with regard to the time factor,
{} 25 and I'm going to take this opportunity to say something Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 about that.
2 I don't agree -- well, I agree that, the way things 3 have gone, it is likely that the examination of the 4 witnesses would take a week, but I don't think that that 5 is what is really required.
6 From what I understand the case is going to be from 7 what Mr. Gallo has represented, it would be the 8 testimony of Mr. Simile, someone from PTL and perhaps 9 five QC Inspectors.
10 I think that Mr. Simile's testimony, the PTL 11 testimony, can be prefiled, and I think, from what we 12 were promised about the QC Inspectors, that the 13 testimony should take from 10 to 15 minutes apiece.
14 Now, that's assuming that there is that direct 15 testimony with regard to that issue that we were 16 promised.
17 But, now, as I mentioned, the way things have been 18 going, it would be likely that-the witnesses would 19 consume a week, and I just would not be happy that 20 things continued that way; and I think I'm going to take 21 this opportunity to say on the record what we have said l
22 off the record on a few occasions: That we are not 23 happy with the pace of the hearing.
24 I have no complaints on that score with regard to r
(} 25 the way Intervenors have presented its case and with the i Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 way Staff has presented its case, because it appears to
- 2 me that when they don't have anything, they haven't 3 pursued the topic, but I am unhappy with the pace at i
- j. 4 which Applicant has put on its case, and in particular
! 5 with the technique, on cross examination or redirect 6 examination, of going into every area that's already
(
7 been gone into with repetitious questioning and in 8 detail, even though it appears that there'is really
- 9. nothing to rebut or nothing further to be added to the 10 original testimony -- I'll give you an opportunity to
- 11 respond to this -- but especially I think with Mr.
- 12 Hunter that was the case.
! 13 Now, my evaluation of a number of the topics that
- 14 Mr. Hunter testified to was that there wasn't very much 15 that Intervenors ended up with, and apparently that is 16 also your evaluation from reading the motion.
17 Nevertheless, we spent a lot of time going back 18 into these areas, and sometimes asking the same 19 questions three or four times.
20 By the way, I don't mean to say it was only counsel i.
21 who questioned Mr. Hunter for Applicant. I think that l 22 this has been typical of counsel for Applicant, whoever i
23 it is; all three counsel.
24 Now, if the technique is to go through every single
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1 questioning, whether it's direct or cross, by the other 2 counsel, without first having evaluated where the weak 3 points are and just going on to that, but just doing it 4 all from the beginning, I don't agree with that.
5 I tried cases myself and I didn't use that 6 technique.
7 I made my evaluation after I heard the testimony 8 the first time, and then I went into where I thought 9 there were gaps or there were weak spots, but I didn't 10 start from the beginning again, hoping that we're going 11 to find something else.
12 I think you have to make a preliminary evaluation; b-~
13 and just to do everything from the beginning every time 14 we have a new topic open -- a'nd in some cases, all we 15 had was a foundation question, which really didn't 16 amount to examining on that topic, and that was used as 17 a means of getting into that topic and then asking maybe 18 an hour's worth of questions on a preliminary five 19 minutes' worth of questioning.
20 And I have to bring this up. I tried to do it off 21 the record, hoping that that would speed the pace up and 22 no more would be said about it, but apparently the pace 23 has not been speeded up and I'm required to say it on 24 the record.
{} 25 Now, we're going to get to a point, when the Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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15 Okay. That's what I have to say on the matter.
16 Now, getting getting back to this motion:
17 I don't think that we ought to spend more than two 18 hours.
19 Of course, you have your understanding of what you 20 require, and I may be wrong in that particular regard, 21 and it may take longer, but if the evidence is what I 22 think it is, prefiled testimony from Mr. Simile and from 23 the PTL people, with, of course, the witnesses being 24 available for cross examination, and a few minutes of 25 testimony from each QC Inspector, if that's what your
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1 case is, and I understand it is all that's going to be 2 required.
3 Now, how long cross examination will take, of 4 course, will depend on how substantial what is offered 5 is; that is, how strong that testimony is going to be.
6 Okay. I've said my piece, and we can go on to the 7 witness now.
8 But I'll certainly entertain anything in response.
9 MR. GALLO: Yes, I'd like to be heard, Judge 10 Grossman.
11 As far as the case on the termination issue 12 involving Mr. Hunter, I want to make it clear that we 13 also intend to call Mr. Seltmann, who made the decision 14 within comstock that Mr. Hunter would no longer be 15 useful as a QC Inspector for Comstock.
16 We, indeed, will call Mr. Simile and one or more 17 other witnesses. We haven't made a firm judgment on 18 that.
19 We have intended -- or had intended to file 20 prefiled testimony.
21 I don't believe that the week's assessment that you l 22 point to in the motion included assessment of the time l
23 we needed to be -- to put on our case with respect to i
24 this issue, because it would be as brief as five or ten i
{} 25 minutes, given the preparation of prefiled testimony.
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1 That was our assessment of what it would take for 2- cross examination and Board questions and redirect.
3 As to -- well, I hope that, indeed, your assessment 4 is correct, Judge Grossman, that it will take 5 significantly less than that.
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, again, my impression of 7 what's gone on here is that Mr. Guild has asked direct 8 questions on the subject. He hasn't wasted any time.
9 He's gone right to the heart of the thing.
10 The length of time he takes on that, if it goes 11 according to what's happened before, would be determined 12 by the strength of what's produced, and if he feels he's 13 striking out, he drops it and goes on, and that's what 14 he's done in the past.
15 I'm not saying that that's what he's going to do 16 here, but based on past performance, that's what I would 17 expect.
18 MR. GALLO: As far as Mr. Hunter goes -- that 19 is, the examination of Mr. Hunter -- as the Board has 20 noted, we had no opportunity to take his deposition on 21 the termination issue or discovery.
22 But there is an element, I believe, in the i
23 examination of Mr. Hunter that, in my judgment, 24 justifies the detailed questioning that was conducted.
{} 25 It's my memory and my judgment that probing in that f Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 fashion obtained answers that otherwise were not 2 obtainable because of the nature of the witness' style 3 in answering questions, plus in giving him the 4 opportunity to recall the fact.
5 It's my memory that a question in an area, asked a 6 different way, a third and fourth time, finally 7 delivered an answer that was different than the 8 impression that was originally left with the 4 9 questioning; and I think that's also true with respect 10 to several other Inspectors.
11 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Are you talking now about 12 the termination topic or the other topics with Mr.
13 Hunter?
14 MR. GALLO: Both; I'm talking about both.
15 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, okay.
16 I agree that there was something that you got on 17 the termination issue, but my feeling was that there was 18 no reason to probe the other issues, and maybe I'll find 19 out dif ferently on the briefs, both from you and 20 Intervenors, but I thought there was a lot of waste 21 there; and even when it came to the termination issue, I j 22 think the matters that were already established and that
- 23 you were satisfied with could have been left alone and 24 just maybe one or two questions on refreshing the
{} 25 witness' recollection of the topic and then going on to Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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V 1 probing the weak points would have sufficed.
2 But I do agree, also, that in certain 3 circumstances, when you go over, in detail, the witness' 4 prior answers, posing similar questions, you may find 5 some material to your benefit; but that is a selected 6 determination that you ought to make.
7 I don't think that that is the automatic way of 8 trying a case, especially when your client apparently is 9 under a lot of pressure to move the thing.
10 I don't think we have unlimited time; but it seems 11 to me as though the overall technique was to start at 12 Square 1 for every topic for every witness, and I don't 13 think that that ought to be the established technique.
14 MR. MILLER: Your Honor, I'd like to just 15 briefly be heard on the overall approach that counsel
- 16 for Applicant has taken.
17 I certainly take your comments to heart, and we'll 18 certainly review what we have done in the past and how 19 we conduct ourselves in the future.
l l 20 However, I think it important to place our role l
21 here in context.
22 No. 1, this is an issue where we bear the burden of 23 proof.
24 Counsel for Intervenors technique, on some
(} 25 occasions, at least, has been to ask conclusory l
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1 questions, obtain conclusory answers, and I can see in 2 my mind's eye the findings that will be based on those 3 conclusory questions and conclusory answers.
4 It is in large measure for that reason that we have 5 gone into some detail on the underlying facts, and it's 6 a time-conuuming process.
7 I want to assure the Board that we have been 8 selective, that we have never gone into every episode, 9 and that we cannot, obviously, take unlimited time to 10 probe every recess of the witness' recollection.
11 In addition, of course, this plant is highly a
-) 12 controversial in forums other than the Nuclear 13 Regulatory Commission, where it faces spirited 14 opposition, not only from BPI, but from many other 15 parties as well.
16 The time that is taken to satisfy this Board on an 17 issue that, in my judgment, is -- the testimony which l
18 has unfolded is ephemeral, and it's based on peoples' 19 perceptions, apparently, and anecdotes, on shop talk, on 20 rumor, on how people reacted to a look, a tone of voice, l 21 a level of volume, so on, is extremely difficult to deal l 22 with, and we want to make certain that this Licensing l 23 Board has before it both the facts with respect to those 24 incidents, because they formed the basis for the
{} 25 Contention, and certainly one of the underlying issues I
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? ,1 j' on which we~ oear the burden of proof, and as well to add f 2;hf the facts with respect to the performance of these QC
[< 3 , Inspectors.
4 - , It has been my impression, as the evidence has 5 ,
unfolded before the Board, judging from comments, 6
[' frankly, that-the Chairman has made, by other members of 7' '"Hi the Board as well, that there is credit given to rumors, j -/ t (
8 /' to shop talk and to' anecdotes that these witnesses come
-9 before you and relay in examination basically by 10 Intervenors, and it is my-judgment, as chief counsel for
- 11 's Applicant, that we must do our best to put those in l '! >
t l 12 context.
I
- li We're not going to rest solely on that aspect of i 14 the case. We intend, in our rebuttal case,.to deal with 15 the actual performance of these QC Inspectors over time
{
16 as best we were able to measure them, because that's the i 17 ultimate issue that the Board seems to be asked to 3-I 18 decide, "What was the effect of all this on the quality 19 of the installations within Comstock's scope of work?"
(
l l- 20 Comments that your Honor makes about the length of 1
21 time that this is taking, as I said, will be taken to 22 heart, and we will review, again, our tactics and the 23 way in which we approach each of these witnesses.
I 24 I would only say that the decision by this
{} 25 Licensing Board is not the final chapter with respect to i Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 the Braidwood plant.
2 That final chapter occurs before the' Illinois 3 Commerce Commission, where the prudent way in which 4 Commonwealth Edison Company has managed the construction 5 of the power plant is at-issue, and it is examined 6 minutely by independent auditors appointed by the 7 Illinois commerce Commission and later~in the hearing in 8 which BPI, who represents the Intervenors here, will be 9 a participant.
10 I appreciate, as I said, and take to heart, the 11 Chair's comments about moving this along; but those are 12 comments which will be heard again, not in this forum, 13 but Lefore the Illinois Commerce Commission, as a basis l
14 for perhaps disallowing some portion of the costs of the 15 power plant when that issue is tried before that agen,cy.
16' I, too, am concerned about the length of time thih 17 bas taken. It has gone far beyond any estimate that I.
18 gave my client, and tMy are not satisfied with the. pace '
19 of the proceedir3 >ct : hey have accepted my judgment 20 that it is necessary to conduct this examination as we 21 have in order to bear our burden of proof.
22 There are obviously shortcuts that could be taken.
23 I believe in the very first pleading that 24 Intervenors filed, they suggested that we would simply 25 stipulate that harassment and intimidation took place Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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.; 9501 0 1; and simply address the quality of the work argued.
2 That's not an acceptable alternative for 3 Commonwea'lth Edison; and since, as I said, the 4 underlying issue is so difficult to get one's arms 5 around in terms of proof, particularly where we must 6 prove the negative, that it did not happen, that time is 7 consumed in exploring what I agree with the Chair are 8 essentially the minutia of the day-to-day existence of 9 these Quality Control Inspectors.
10 Mr. Gallo and I have spent no small amount of time 11 outside the hearing room discussing our technique and 12 the'$sctics that we might employ in an effort to both 13 bear our burden of proof and shorten the evidentiary 14 process.
15 We have been u.nsuccessful so far, but we will look 16 at it^again and endeavor ~to do our best to shorten the 17 cross examination.
18 I will tell you that I think that when the analysis 19 of the record is finally concluded, if you would count 20 up the time that was spent, I don't know that there has 21 been an inordinate amount of time spent by Applicant on 22 cross examination compared to the amount of time spent 23 by Intervenors in its examination.
24 I don't state that as a fact. I was just saying
{} 25 .
that that ought to await the conclusion of the record.
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1 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I want to assure you that --
2 and I'm sure you will reflect on what's been done 3 before -- that I have not brought this up on the record 4 until this time, and I deliberately did not.
5 If there was any time that I encouraged you to 6 speed it up, I went off the record and I said that; and 7 it is only after we've been here 46 days already that 8 I'm taking this opportunity to say something on the 9 record, because I'm not satisfied at this point that it 10 has moved as quickly as possible, and I know we're going 11 to hear from some congressman some time about the pace 12 of hearings and that the boards don't move the hearings.
dgs 13 I appreciate that you have your client's position 14 to protect, but I think it's appropriate that it all be 15 said on the record right now.
16 MR. MILLER: Well, your Honor, I will tell you 17 right now that if the Board wishes to set a time limit 18 on cross examination, we'll live with that, as long as 19 it's applied to all parties.
20 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, if I were dissatisfied 21 with the way all the parties have conducted their 22 examination, I might be amenable to that, but I'm not.
23 I haven't found any problems with all the parties, and I 24 have pinpointed some problems; and I think, since it's 25 in your client's interests to speed it up, that the ball
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1 is in your court to do it, because I really don't feel 2 that the other parties have taken an inordinately large 3 amount of time to present what they had to present; and 4 I appreciate, when Mr. Berry doesn't have anything to 5 add, that he doesn't examine.
6 I only want examination when it's profitable.
7 This isn't a jury trial where the jury's going to 8 be persuaded that when one party asks the questions, it 9 must have the evidence in its favor.
10 The evidence is what it says on the record, and it 11 doesn't matter who asks the questions; and once a topic 12 has been satisfactorily explored -- that is, 13 satisfactory to the party that now has to examine --
14 that party ought to leave it alone.
15 I can't plan their cases for them, but I think 16 there are some times when that's appropriate, and I 17 haven't seen that happen; but I don't want to rehash it.
18 We now have everybody's position on the record who 19 wants to speak.
20 Does anyone have anything else?
21 I don't think it's required unless you have 22 comething further.
23 okay. Why don't we go on.
24 Is there any preliminary matter before we go on to
{} 25 the witness?
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1 MR. GUILD: Mr. Chairman, before we go 2 further, I just would ask if Applicant has had an 3 opportunity to lay hands on the Martin investigative 4 file to deal-with the issue of the note and --
5 MR. MILLER: Yes. Mr. Rolan, who has custody 4 6 of that file, has been on vacation, and his desk has 7 been locked.
8 I think he's supposed to be back today; and we'll 9 look into it'further.
10 MR. GUILD: Let me raise one other point as a
- 11 preliminary matter regarding Mr. Martin.
i 12 There's reference made to a Commonwealth Edison 13 Company audit that in some respects was the foundation 14 for the suspension of Mr. Martin's certifications in 15 October of 1983.
16 The audit was also referred to recently by Mr.
17 Martin in response to Mr. Gallo's questions as the basis 18 for what now I understand to be the revised procedure or s 19 practice of documenting weld inspections on a single i 20 Form 19 checklist for a single hanger.
l :21 Obviously, that is pretty significant event as it i
22 relates to the performance of weld inspection; and I j 23 would ask if that audit could be -- a copy of that audit
- 24 report could be made available.
1
(} 25 I can't represent that I hadn't seen it in Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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O 1 discovery, but it certainly was never brought to my 2 attention; and I would appreciate it if Applicant can 3 make that available.
4 MR. MILLER: I think we have it somewhere.
5 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. That's fine.
6 Okay. So let's continue.
i i 7 I thought we had a witness here. We'll continue 8 with the witness, though he seems to have stepped out.
9 Okay. Mr. Martin, you remain under oath.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
i 11 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Who was --
12 MR. GALLO: You may recall, I completed my 13 questioning yesterday.
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Oh, yes, and Mr. Berry was 15 going to start.
16 Okay, Mr. Berry.
I 17 MR. BERRY: Good morning, Mr. Martin.
18 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
19 MR. BERRY: I didn't have an opportunity to 20 meet you at your deposition, so I want to take this 21 opportunity to introduce myself for the record now.
22 My name is Gregory Berry and I represent the 23 Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
24 I have a few questions for you on your testimony l
25 that you have given in this proceeding.
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1 CROSS EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. BERRY:
3 Q Mr. Martin, when you went to the NRC on March 29th, did 4 anyone ask you to go?
5 A I was informed that other people were going and that 6 there was going to be an open-air meeting; that -- and 7 if -- I was told, yes, if I wanted to come, I could 8 come.
9 Q Do you recall if that was the phrase that was used, 10 "open-air meeting"?
11 A Yes.
12 Q What did you understand that to mean?
13 A There was going to be a group of Inspectors that were 14 going to affirm the testimony of -- excuse me -- Rick --
15 Rich Snyder as far as the dealings with Rick Saklak were 16 concerned.
17 0 Okay.
18 And when did you learn of this Snyder-Saklak 19 incident?
20 A I learned about it about 10 A. M. on March 29th.
21 Q I believe you testified, in response to a question from 22 one of the other parties, that you made some changes to 23 the statements attributed to you in the memo you 24 received from the NRC.
{} 25 Do you recall that testimony?
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1 A Yes, I do.
2 Q Let me show you two documents --
l 3 MR. BERRY: I'd like the Reporter to mark l 4 these as Staff Exhibit 15 and 16.- l 5 Staff Exhibit 15 would be an April 8, 1985, letter 6 from Chuck Weil to Mr. Martin, and Staff's Exhibit 16
.7 would be -- it's a three-page document. It's dated 8 April 10, 1985. It's a transmittal meao from Mr.
9 McGregor to Mr. Weil, and the subject matter is 10 transmitting corrections made to an allegation given by.
11 Inspectors during the meeting of March 29th.
12 (Indicating.)
i O 13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Excuse me.
14 I don't see any Staff Exhibit 15.
I 15 Is there --
l 16 MR. BERRY:- This is 15.
17 (Indicating.)
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Oh, this is 157 i 19 MR. BERRY: Yes.
20 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Oh, I thought you said 16.
21 I'm sorry. .
22 MR. BERRY: This is 16.
23 (Indica ting . )
24 (The documents were thereupon marked
[} 25 Staff Exhibits Nos. 15 and 16 for Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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'v' 1 identification as of July 31, 1986.)
2 BY MR. BERRY:
3 Q First, Mr. Martin, do you-recall:
4 Did you ever receive a copy of this letter that is 5 Staff Exhibit 15?
6 A The one dated April 8 --
7 Q Yes.
8 A -- 1985?
9 (Indicating.)
10 Yes, I do remember receiving this.
11 MR. BERRY: Can we go off the record one second?
(q,/
12 13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Off the record.
14 (There followed a discussion outside the 15 record.)
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. Back on the record.
17 Staff's Exhibit 16, which is not yet in evidence, 18 consists of a portion of an in-camera document, which is 19 Document 42A for Intervenors, and so when this is 20 offered and received, it will become an in-camera l 21 document, also.
22 So you may proceed, Mr. Berry.
23 BY MR. BERRY:
24 Q Mr. Martin, I believe you testified that you made some 25 changes to the statements attributed to you at the March
(}
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U 1 29th meeting; correct?
2 A Yes, I did.
3 Q Let me direct your attention to the second and third 4 pages of Staff Exhibit 16, and you'll see, toward the 5 bottom of the second page, where there's a statement 6 attributed to you, and there appear to be some 7 handwritten notations there.
8 A Yes.
9 Q I would ask you if you know who made those changes -- I 10 mean, those notations?
11 A It looks -- it is my writing.
12 O Now, in the first paragraph, the word "several" is 13 deleted and the word "two" is inserted and the name of 14 two individuals, and in the next paragraph, the word 15 "several" again is deleted and the word "two" is 16 inserted.
17 Now, I direct your attention to the next page, to 18 the third page of the exhibit.
19 And is that your writing, alco?
l l 20 A Yes, it is.
l 21 Q I notice, Mr. Martin, that in the second full sentence l
22 on the third page of the exhibit, there are no changes 22 made to that sentence.
24 Can you explain --
{} 25 A Okay. You are -- all right. You are saying that in the i
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
. - _ - - _ _ - - _ - __- .__--__..__- . . . _= . .
9510 1 top paragraph, the second line?
2 Q The top paragraph, starting with -- the second line 3 starting with the word -- the sentence starting with the 4 word "And," carrying over into the third sentence --
5 third line.
6 A Oh, I see. Yes, I see what you are saying.
7 This was -- I evidently overlooked this point in --
8 when I was trying to make corrections.
9 If -- I believe I had meant to change that, but I 10 did not -- I guess I didn't.
11 (Indicating.)
1 12 Q Now, subsquently you met with Mr. Mendez of the Nuclear
)
13 Regulatory Commission?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Did he discuss with you that concern regarding the 16 circumstances surrounding your transfer to the inside of 17 the vault?
18 A Yes, we did discuss that.
19 Q Do you remember if you indicated to Mr. Mendez what the 20 nature of your concern was?
21 A I just merely indicated that I was being watched by my 22 management very closely, and that I didn't think it was 23 right the way they -- the way they moved me from outside 24 of the office to the inside of the office, and I
{} 25 explained that the desk that they moved me to was about Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9511 1 knee level and -- and I couldn't even fit my legs under 2 it, and yet I had to bend over to work at it, and 3 they -- I asked to be moved elsewhere, and they wouldn't 4 do it, and I just felt it was harassing me for talking 5 to an NRC Inspector.
6 (Indicating.)
7 Q Do you recall if Mr. Mendez was under the impression 8 that the concern was that you were transferred from the 9 field --
10 A Yes --
11 0 -- into the vault?
g-) 12 A -- he had that concern; but I tried to explain that I V
13 was not working out in the field at the time.
14 Q You were asked some questions about the tape measure 15 incident with Mr. Saklak.
16 Do you recall that testimony?
. 17 A Yes.
l 18 (Indicating.)
19 Q And I believe also you indicated, during the March 29th f 20 NRC meeting, that Mr. Saklak lied to get you fired?
l 21 A Yes, that's true.
22 0 I'm not sure I quite understood.
l l 23 What precisely was the lie that Mr. Saklak told?
l 24 A When -- when we were in the office with Mr. Corcoran, he l
(} 25 stated that I had raised my voice at him, I had been Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9512 1 disrespectful, and -- and -- in -- in more of a 2 belligerent type of way, and that was completely false.
3 I never raised my voice. I was -- I just didn't 4 understand his attitude; and I think he pulled out of 5 that some things that were very convenient for him to 6 pull out of that.
7 Q Now, I believe you also testified that this was the 8 first confrontation that you had with Mr. Saklak, I 9 mean, prior to this -- you know, this was the first 10 run-in that you had with Mr. Saklak.
11 A We had a few words other times. There were times when 12 he tried to -- to push me around in -- in a more p)g x
13 indirect type of way.
14 I can't -- I would be doing something and he would 15 just walk up to me, you know, and -- and -- and ask me 16 what I was doing, you know, and -- as if he thought that 17 -I wasn't doing something that I should be.
18 He would just come up to a person and ask them, 19 "What" - "What are you doing"; and -- and I kind of got 20 tired of that, and -- and a couple times I told him 21 to -- respectfully I told him to mind his own business.
22 If he -- if he has a problem with what I'm doing, that 23 he could go to my supervisor in that respect, and I 24 think that's what started the whole thing off basically.
25 (Indicating.)
[}
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9513
!Q V
1 Q Do you know if he ever went to your supervisor?
2 A Oh, sure, probably every day.
3 Q Do you recall, when you were -- Mr. Mendez was on the 4 site and looking into the concerns expressed during the 5 March 29th meeting, if you and he discussed, you know, 6 what you just testified to?
7 A I believe I did tell Mr. Mendez that that was the first, 8 you know, real conflict between me and Rick Saklak.
9 (Indicating.)
10 And -- and -- and as far as, you know, a time 11 frame, that -- I think he was looking for simply putting r3 12 everything in a time frame.
(/
13 I think he asked, you know, "What's first, second,"
14 and this and that, so we~tried to put it in that 15 perspective. It's --
16 (Indicating.)
17 0 Mr. Martin, do you remember if you showed Mr. Mendez a 18 copy of Intervenor 77, which was the memo that you wrote 19 regarding the tape measure incident?
20 A I did not have a copy available for Mr. Mendez.
21 Q Do you remember if you mentioned that you had written up 22 your account of the incident?
23 A Yes, I did.
i 24 0 Did you ever go speak with the Quality First Program?
25 A Yes, I have.
)
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(_/
1 Q How many times?
2 A Oh, probably five, six times.
3 Q. Were you ever told by Comstock management not to speak 4 with -- not to speak with the Quality First Program?
5 A No; although I can -- I want to clarify that answer a 6 little bit.
7 Personnel were looked down upon if -- if they were 8 not using the chain of command, which is, you know, go 9 to -- to -- go to your management first, Comstock 10 management, and then go to the Quality First.
11 I mean, they never told us not to, but I think they 12 did express the -- the -- that -- that they would like g
v 13 to have the first shot at your problem; and to the point 14 of, you know, they -- they felt it was -- they just 15 didn't think it was right.
16 (Indicating.)
17 I'm not going to say they thought it was wrong.
18 They just didn't think it was the best thing.
19 0 Would your management know if an Inspector went to the 20 Quality First Program?
21 A Not necessa rily. I don't -- I don't think they would 22 know.
23 0 And Quality First, did they have arrangements for 24 anonymity ?
{} 25 A Yes, they have very good -- I guess they do.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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i 9515 J
1 (Indica ting . )
2 Q Well, now, you mentioned that you went to Quality First 3 four or five times.
4 I'm not going to ask you about each of the f
5 instances --
6 A Yes.
7 Q -- but just generally, did you ever receive a response 8 from Quality First?
1 9 A No.
10 Q In none of your -- none of the times you went?
11 A Excuse me. One time. One time they were willing to 12 write down my problem without a lot of questions.
- O, 13 (Indica ting . )
14 Q What problem was that, if you recall?
l 15 A There arose a problem with welder ID's, and a question 4
16 came up about just welders miscellaneously stamping
, 17 hangers, and they were trying to close out an ICR that I 18 had written, and they just came across an interesting 19 circumstance, which I cannot get too specific on -- it 20 was quite awhile ago -- but the problem arose that we i
21 would, in order to close ICR's that were written against i
22 hangers that had no welder stamp -- at one time we'd 23 just get a welder and have him stamp it, which is --
24 could be considered gross negligence on my part; and
{} 25 when this came up, I felt that the management would Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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9516
( ;
V 1 probably take first shot at me, so I went over to 2 Quality First and tried to explain to them the whole 3 situation from my point of view before the management 4 got ahold of it and used it against me.
5 (Indicating.)
6 At this point, they were, you know, cooperative; 7 and I told them I didn't -- I didn't require any type of 8 anonymous -- or protection. I just wanted to make sure 9 that the problem was investigated fairly and that 10 nothing would be misconstrued.
11 Q Do you recall where these welds were located?
12 A I gave Quality First a pretty good description of the 13 items.
14 You could probably get ahold of that; but you could 15 also go through our ICR's, and there's numerous ICR's 16 written against hangers that needed -- required a weld 17 stamp. We just grabbed a welder and had him stamp it.
18 0 Was there some reason why you couldn't get the original 19 welder to put his stamp on the weld?
20 A We were told that getting any Weld Inspector -- we had 21 an ICR crew, one crew that just dealt with closing out 22 ICR's, and we were instructed by our management that 23 it's perfectly acceptable to just have this person in 24 this ICR crew stamp the weld and, therefore, they will 25 be stamped.
(~}
V Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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9517 O 1 Q And do you recall who it was in your management crew who 2 told you that?
3 A Mike Kast and Irv DeWald.
4 Q Do you recall the time period this took place?
5 A From -- probably from mid '82 on through to the point 6 where WIR's were initiated, Welding Installation Records 7 were initiated, into the weld program from those two 8 points.
9 I'm not sure when that point was. I wasn' t really 10 involved with the welding program since I wasn't in 11 the -- for quite some time, I wasn' t certified.
12 Q You brought this matter to the attention of Quality 13 First.
14 What, if anything, did they tell -- I believe you 15 indicated -- what, if anything, did they do after you 16 advised them of this problem?
17 A They said they were -- they were going to look into it, 18 and they said there's probably something already 19 covering it, and they said, "We" - "We" --
20 Q Did you hear further from them?
21 A No.
22 In fact, they were kind of -- I felt they were kind 23 of arrogant about it. They said, "Do you want us to get 24 back with you on it," and then they go," if you even 25 care," and, you know, I said, " Yeah, I'd like you to get
[}
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9518
, )
1 back with me on it, of course I would"; and they never 2 did, by the way.
3 (Indicating.)
4 0 Do you recall when it was you went to Quality First 5 about this particular concern?
6 A Probably October or September of last year.
7 Q That would be 19857 8 A Yes, sir.
9 MR. GALLO: May I have that last answer read 10 back, please.
11 (The answer was thereupon read by the fs 12 Reporter.)
4 d 13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Was that the answer you 14 wanted?
15 MR. GALLO: I thought there was a question 16 that asked for -- that Mr. Berry asked about whether --
17 JUDGE GROSSMAN: When that happened.
18 The answer was September or October of 1985.
, 19 MR. GALLO: Thank you.
20 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Is that correct?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's correct.
22 BY MR. BERRY:
23 0 Changing subjects, Mr. Martin:
24 I believe you indicated at the March 29th meeting
{} 25 that you were being watched all the time or something to Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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9519 O
j 1 that effect?
- 2 A Yes, yes.
3 Q I believe you also testified further that you were 4 required to fill out hourly -- accounts for your time on 5 an hourly basis?
6 A Yes.
7 Q I want to show you, I guess, a daily Inspection Status 8 Report just for illustration purposes only.
9 It's f rom Mr. DeWald's -- it's an attachment to Mr.
10 DeWald's testimony, Attachment DeWald-4.
11 It's one of a series of status reports included in 12 Mr. DeWald's testimony.
13 (Indicating.)
14 And I would just ask you to review that and see if 15 you could tell us:
16 Is this the status report that you were required to l 17 fill out?
i 18 A This example that you are showing me is a status report j 19 that the Inspectors were required to fill out.
20 I had a different entirely -- excuse me -- entirely i 21 different type of form that I used to record my hourly 22 accomplishments, whatever you want to call them.
23 0 Okay.
24 The form that you used, did anybody else use that 25 form, also?
[}
. Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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9520 O
v 1 A No.
2 Q It was an especially-designed form for you?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Do you recall who designed it?
5 A Yes; Larry Seese.
6 Q Did Mr. Seese tell you why you had a different form than 7 other Inspectors did?
8 A He felt that -- he felt that I could -- could not be 9 trusted to do a day's work, so he wanted to use these 10 to -- to show exactly what I was doing.
11 JUDGE GROSSMAN: That's what he said to you?
12 THE WITNESS: Yeah; in those -- in those --
13 not in those specific words, but that was the idea that 14 came across.
15 I'm a -- he was -- you know, he was -- at the time 16 he was unhappy with me, and -- and I just have to go off 17 the -- the kind of -- the air of the situation.
18 He could have smiled at me and said, "Here's a gift f 19 for you," you know, but, you know, due to the 20 surrounding circumstances, it was not anything that
- 21 was -- not anything that was going to, I feel, be an i
22 important part of -- of an organizational type of thing.
23 I felt it was merely something that would -- a tool that 24 he could use to eventually get me fired.
l
{} 25 (Indicating.)
l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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9521 O
v 1 BY MR. BERRY:
2 Q Do you still fill out that same kind of daily -- or 3 hourly status report?
4 A No.
5 Q And when did that cease?
6 A It stopped when -- when I had been caught by Frank Rolan 7 leaving -- supposedly leaving early; and at that point 8 in time, I was considering seeking legal counsel to sue 9 Comstock for mental anguish and a lot of things I was 10 going through there.
i 11 I felt that it was necessary, because at that point 12 in time, they were just constantly pounding me, and --
13 and it was -- it was affecting my attitude so bad, I 14 couldn't even work.
15 I'd sit there and I'd look at a form, and all I 16 would be thinking about is all the stuff I was going i
17 through, and he'd come down and he'd say, "What are you 18 doing? " "I'm just looking at" - "you know, trying to 19 status this stuff," and, you know, he'd get on me for 20 looking at a form too long.
21 0 When you say "he" --
22 A Larry seese.
23 And he had people in the vault that were watching 24 me.
(} 25 Every time I would get up and go to the bathroom or Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9522 0 1 something, that person would call upstairs, and at that 2 point in time, Larry Seese would try to get ahold of me.
3 He'd called me on the intercom, " Rick Martin. Where are 4 you, Rick Martin," and I'd be in the bathroom and so he 5 couldn't get ahold of me, and it made me look like I was 6 really being derelict and --
7 Q You mentioned that it stopped af ter --
8 A Oh, yes.
9 Q -- Frank Rolan --
t 10 A Oh, okay.
11 Q The question is:
i
~
12 Did you ask that it be stopped or how did it come 13 to be stopped?
14 A Well, I -- like I say, I -- I was thinking about getting 15 legal counsel, and I talked to my pastor about it, 16 and -- and he was against it, and he told me that what I 17 was obligated to do before I did anything of that manner 18 was to go to the company and say, "Look. You know, I'm 19 not trying to cause any trouble, you know. I'm just 20 trying to" - "to do my job. I want to do a good job.
21 I'm not here to cause trouble"; and -- and he told me, 22 you know, I need to do that, so I felt that it was 23 idiotic, but I did it, and it did work.
24 At that point, I -- it's -- I can' t explain why, 25 but at that point, I told them -- I said, "Look. You
]
f Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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9523 l)
U 1 know, I'm not trying to cause trouble. I just want to 2 do my work. I want to be a positive part of the 3 office," and they immediately changed.
4 Q Now -- did you complete your answer?
5 I'm sorry if I interrupted you.
6 A Yeah. I -- let me see.
7 I had told them, pointed out to them, that I was 8 the only one in the office at the time that was not 9 getting overtime and --
10 JUDGE COLE: Who is "them," Mr. Martin?
11 THE WITNESS: Oh, Larry Seese and Irv DeWald.
g x, 12 BY MR. BERRY:
- i 13 Q Getting back to the status reports that you were 14 comple ting, the hourly status reports
15 Do you know if they had any other purpose other 16 than to account for your time, account for your actions?
17 A That's -- that was the -- that was the purpose, sure, to 18 account for my time, and if it wasn't counted right, it 19 would be counted against me.
20 I mean, they could have many purposes, and they 21 could have served quite a few purposes.
22 The purpose that was told to me they were being 23 used for was to just keep track of what I'm doing to 24 help cover myself and -- and Mr. Seese, also, so that he 25 could show people supposedly what I have been doing; but
(~]
\_-
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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9524 O
V 1 certainly if -- if the reports became unf avorable, they 2 would -- I'm sure they could use them as evidence 3 against me, just as they did with Herschel Stout.
4 (Indicating.)
5 Q Speaking of Mr. Stout, how do you know that anybody used 6 anything against Mr. Stout?
7 A From conversation with other Inspectors.
8 (Indicating.)
9 Q And what did they tell you? What were you told in 10 these conversations?
11 A Well, I did talk with his Lead at one time,
,e-) 12 0 Who was that?
(/
13 A Mike Mustered.
14 Q Okay.
15 What did Mr. Mustered say?
16 A And he felt the situation was just a little ridiculous; 17 that if a person is -- is certified and qualified to 18 look at welds, there is no reason that it would take as 19 long as it did with -- with Herschel to inspect hangers; 20 and then he mentioned some statuses and stuff and --
21 and -- in reference to the daily status sheets.
22 (Indicating.)
23 0 Well, do you recall when this conversation took place 24 with Mr. Mustered?
I 25 A It was -- it was right at the time that Herschel Stout
}
l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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9525 O It -- it was an issue; and -- and it might have 1 left.
2 been a week after he left or a week before, but it was 3 right in that time frame.
4 (Indicating.)
5 Q Did Mr. Stout leave before or after the March 29, 1985, 6 NRC meeting?
7 A He was gone an awful lot.
8 It was -- I -- I -- I wasn' t around Herschel hardly 9 at all, because, you know, they were field Inspectors 10 and I was in the office all day.
11 I might have seen him, you know, once every third 12 day or something, so I really was out of touch in that
(-)3 13 area.
14 0 Okay.
. 15 Did you understand that Mr. Stout had been 16 reprimanded for this incident?
17 A Yes, I am -- I had knowledge of that.
18 No specifics, but I heard that he had been talked 19 to by Tony Simile, I believe.
. 20 Q Now I want to talk about the subject of Mr. DeWald, t
21 Now, when you and Mr. DeWald were both Welding 22 Inspectors, was Mr. DeWald your supervisor at that time?
23 A Yes.
I 24 0 Okay.
What was it like working for Mr. DeWald during that
( 25 l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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9526 O 1 period of time?
2 A It was -- it wasn' t too bad. It -- we -- we kind of had 3 a -- I felt we had a really good relationship.
4 Q Was he helpful?
5 A Helpf ul?
6 I -- helpful?
7 I would say yes, he -- he was helpful, although 8 there were really no opportunities for him to be helpful 9 at the time. I mean, we never had to call on him, that 10 I know of, but -- for certain situations; but he -- I'm 11 sure he would have been helpful.
f- 12 (Indica ting . )
N )3 13 Q Just so we're clear, I'm asking about the period of time 14 when you were a Welding Inspector and Mr. DeWald was a 15 Welding Inspector.
16 Is that what your last answer referred to, that 17 period of time?
18 A Yeah, yes.
19 Q Do you have an opinion of Mr. DeWald as the QC Manager?
20 A Well, yeah, I sure do.
21 Q What is the opinion -- what is your opinion?
22 A I feel that he's an -- incapable of --
23 0 I'm sorry.
24 Did you say " capable" ?
{} 25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Mr. Berry, that's about the i
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J 9527 e ',
l
<' , a
\ (~'\\x l{ " .
li 7 third or fourth time, when the witness is searching for A/ 2 ,/ words, that you have come in with another question.
(l 3 Let him finish his answer.
I' F
4 ,
MR. BERRY: I'm sorry, your Honor.
5 A (Contin uing . ) I feel that he's incapable of separating
,1 6 c I'.. professionalism from personalism, and I think a lot of
'O' L
- 7 f
things that happened he really took very personal, and f . ,
N 8
he became so introverted within himself, and that drew
', 9 upon him a lot of criticism, a lot of misunderstanding, 10 and he just could not cope with the things -- some of 11 ,
, the things that were happening to him and -- and be able 12 to relate to his people.in a professional manner.
O 13, e i
y It was -- just got personal. You would say "Hi" to 14 him and he would ignore you. You tried to -- to maybe 15 do a good job and say this and that, and -- and, you 16 know, he -- he just would not respond; and when -- when 17 there needed to be problems cleared up, he -- he just 18 lost touch with his -- with the people; and it was i
19 like -- it was like a -- he was -- he was very far -- he 20 was far removed from us, and anything that came to the 21 Inspector came through the supervisors. He just very 22 purposefully set himself a part.
23 (Indica ting . )
24 And also there was -- another character trait was 25 that he became paranoid. I don' t -- might not Sonntag Reporting Service, _ Ltd.
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1 necessarily like to use that exact word, but he just 2 felt that if he did not -- he was just overprotective of 3 everything. He was like, you know, everybody was out to 4 get him. I guess that's really the impression I got and 5 experienced.
6 BY MR. BERRY:
7 Q You said that was the impression that you got.
8 I was wondering if there are any facts or instances 9 or examples that you can draw upon that might explain 10 the character --
11 MR. GALLO: I'm going to object that it's i 12 irrelevant and immaterial as to whether he's a good 13 manager. ,
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, I think it's beyond 15 the scope of what we've heard on direct.
16 We're opening new areas here, and it's going to
~
17 raquire --
18 MR. BERRY: I don't intend to go beyond the 19 scope, and I'll close the area, Mr. Chairman, i 20 MR. GUILD: Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that 21 it is a fair question, once you've asked it, which I 22 don' t find obj ectionable and didn' t obj ect to, to ask 23 what's the basis for the opinion; and now the record 24 remains that we have opinion evidence -and a hanging question, "What's the basis," with the company objecting
{} 25 Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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, i O'
1 to knowing what the basis is, and I think it's, indeed, 2 appropriate that the witness be allowed to complete his 3 opinion by supplying what the basis for that was.
4 MR. GALLO: The allowance of one question
- 5 4 does not justify the allowance of another question.
6 That's the thrust of his point; and it should be 7 disregarded, i 8 JUDGE GROSSMAN: You've withdrawn the i
9 question, Mr. Berry?
10 MR. BERRY: The last question?
i 11 JUDGE GROSSMAN: In the last question, I
'12 think you asked whether there were any incidents tht he 13 could refer to as a basis for his position.
i 14 Have you withdrawn that or are you --
, 15 ' MR. BERRY: I believe the Board ---yes; I'll 1
16 withdraw that question, Mr. Chairman, yes.
17 BY MR. BERRY:
l 18 Q I believe you testified that you assisted Mr. Mendez in 19 trying to locate a checklist with a thousand welds or 20 more on it.
21 A Yes, yes, 22 Q And were you aware at the time that the author of the 23 checklist that you were looking for was Mr. DeWald?
l 24 A Yes.
25 Q Okay.
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9530 1 Do you know why Mr. Mendez was looking for that 2 particular checklist?
3 A At that point in time, I had heard a few things, that 4 somebody mentioned inflated checklists about Irv DeWald, 5 but I never really heard any specifics until actually --
6 Mr. Mendez actually came up to me and specifically asked 1
7 me if I knew of a checklist and if I would assist him in 8 trying to locate it.
9 (Indica ting . )
10 0 Well, it was your impression at the March 29th meeting 11 that someone raised a concern that a large number of
-w 12 hangers containing a large number of welds were being b 13 inspected -- had been inspected in a single day, was it 14 not?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Was it also the joke of -- was it common knowledge 17 around the QC Inspectors that Mr. DeWald inspected a 18 thousand welds in a day or more; the checklist existed, 19 the document existed, of a thousand welds in a day?
20 A I never had knowledge of that checklist.
21 Q Well, had you heard --
22 A I had heard, but -- I don't know if I'm out of line by 23 saying this, but if -- if the doc reviewers had said 24 that, I would tend to believe it, but if anybody else
{} 25 said it, I would tend to think that it's -- I would tend i
l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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, 1 to think that it would not be true, simply based on --
2 because I've worked extensively in the vault and I've 3 never seen it, and although -- the doc reviewers have 4 been through every piece of paper work, and if one of 5 them said they saw it, I would believe them.
6 (Indicating.)
7 Q Well, Mr. Martin, were you aware that some Inspectors 8 have found -- you know, thought it amusing because it is 9 unlikely that anyone could inspect a thousand welds in a 10 single day?
i 11 A I think that statement was made uithout -- with -- I 12 think the person was prejudiced saying that, and was not 13 understanding some of the methods of inspection at the 14 time.
15 S61I think the statement there was just something 16 that was said in anger or in emotion.
17 , JUDGE GROSSMAN: Excuse me.
18 Which statement are we talking about, that a 19 thousand welds couldn't be inspected in one day or 20 tha t 0- -
21 THE WITNESS: Yes.
22 JUDGE GROSSMAN: That statement?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's the one I'm 24 answering.
25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Yes. Okay.
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9532 1 BY MR. BERRY:
2 Q Now, the person that made that statement, was he a l 3 Welding Inspector?
4 A I have no idea.
5 (Indica ting . )
6 Q Well, when you went to the March -- the meeting on March l
7 29th at the NRC offices -- i 8 A Yes.
~
9 0 -- any of the individuals that accompanied -- that were 10 ir. attendance at that meeting, were they Weld Inspectors 11 at the same time that you were a Weld Inspector when the 12 former -- the practice that you testified -- the former 13 practice that you testified about was in place?
14 A There was one, one person: Franco Rolan.
15 (Indicating.)
16 Q Now, before that meeting where the statement was made at 17 the meeting, had you heard rumors or statements to that '
18 effect?
19 A No, I -- I've never -- it's kind of a hard question, 20 because the doc review program was in ef fect, and -- and 21 there's always -- you know, they're always laughing over 22 some of the crazy things they find, and specifically
! 23 with Mr. DeWald.
24 But as far as reference to a checklist with a
{} 25 thousand welds, I -- I cannot recall any type of Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 scuttlebutt or whatever previous to the meeting.
2 (Indica ting. )
. 3 0 Well, I just want to ask:
4 Do you know if they ever inspected -- if it was 5 common knowledge around the Inspectors -- among the A
6 Inspectors that in'the previous days the practice'was to 7 bank the inspections and complete the checklists at a 8 later period of time documenting work done on previous 4
9 days?
10 A No, I don't think they were really aware of that.
, 11 Q Do you recall if you brought it to their attention?
l 12 A I never did.
13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Excuse me, Mr. Berry.
14 I don't understand the context of your question, 15 because apparently the witness' practice was to do the 16 inspection in one day, not over a period of time, but he 17 recorded the inspections the next day.
18 BOARD EXAMINATION i 19 BY JUDGE GROSSMAN:
l 20 Q But, nevertheless, your practice was to do all the 21 inspections in one day, wasn' t it, that you recorded?
22 A Yes; although in regards to our configuration A
23 inspections, we would hold over our records, our notes, 24 for maybe the end of the week. Welding --
25 Q So that for configurations, you would inspect over a
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i l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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9534 1 period of time and then write it up in one day?
2 A Yes, yes.
3 MR. GALLO: Does the Chairman mean on one 4 checklist?
5 JUDGE GROSSMAN: And write it -- pardon?
6 I'm sorry.
7 MR. GALLO: You are using the term one day.
8 I think perhaps one checklist would be more 9 meaningful.
10 Is that what your intent is by the question?
11 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I don't know which question 12 you are referring to, Mr. Gallo.
13 MR. G ALLO: All right.
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN: But let us get it straight 15 now.
16 BY JUDGE GROSSMAN:
17 0 With regard to writing things up on one checklist, my
- 18 understanding, from what you've just testified to and 19 what you've testified before, is that, with regard to 20 configurations, you might inspect over a few days and l 21 then write it up on one checklist; is that correct?
22 A I would -- I would turn my work in the same day.
l 23 And as far as our welding checklist was concerned, 1
24 there were -- there were Inspectors that would -- there l
r^s 25 were Inspectors that would inspect, say, 50 hangers in a O
i Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 day ~and turn in 20 at a time.
2 (Indi ca ting. )
3 Q Okay. '
4 Now we're talking about welding?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 0 okay.
7 But with welding, then, let's establish that you 8 would inspect in one day and then turn in a checklist 9 covering that one day's inspection, but you might turn 10 it in the next day or write it up the next day --
11 A Yes.
12 0 -- right? ,
13 Okay. But you didn't do a few days' inspections 14 and then turn it in on one checklist?
15 A I cannot remember any time that I did it, although I'm 16 not denying that I didn't do it.
I 17 Q Okay.
L 18 In other words, your notebooks would verify whether 19 you ever did it; but it certainly wasn't -- what you are t
20 saying is, as far as you recall, it was not your l
! 21 practice to do --
22 A Yes.
23 0 -- more than one day's work or to reflect more than one i 24 day's work on a checklist?
l
() 25 A Yes, it was not my normal practice to do that at all.
l l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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9536 1 l
l 1 Q Okay. !
i i
2 Now, you mentioned other Inspectors in which they 3 may have done one day's work, but they would turn it in
- 4 as a series of checklists; not on one checklist, but on 5 a few checklists?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Okay.
8 And then it would appear as though they did less 9 than one day's inspections on each checklist, so it 10 wouldn't appear on the checklist; is that correct?
11 A Yes.
12 0 in other words -- okay. The answer is yes.
13 And, in other words, what I'm saying is, just to 14 repeat what you indicated, that they might have 15 inspected 50 hangers, but they might have turned in a 16 checklist -- or 3 checklists the next day or in the next 17 f ew days, 1 with 20, another with 20 and another with 18 10? Is that the kind of thing you are talking about?
19 A Yes, it is.
20 Q Okay.
21 Now, you said, with regard to configurations, there 22 was something different?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Now, configurations you might inspect over a few days' 25 time and turn it in on one checklist; is that it?
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1 A No. In configs inspection, each hanger is -- has its 2 own checklist, so the paper work sometimes would be 3 quite involved, so many times we -- we would go through
- 4 an area -- or we'd work a few days and do fieldwork, and 5 then we would come in and -- and have a day that we just 6 did our research, follow up and filled out our paper 7 work.
8 Q Oh, okay, i-9 So, in other words, you would fully inspect that i
10 one configuration over a number of days, and then when i 11 it was completed, you would then reflect that in one 12 checklist; is that so?
13 A No, it is not. We would go into an area. Say we 14 inspected 10 hangers 1 day. Well, we would write it i 15 'down. We would have things -- you know, it would be on 16 a check sheet, and we'd work up to quitting time, and -
- 17 then come in the next day, we'd just go right back out 18 in the field, inspect 10 more hangers, record 19 every thing, and -- and work till quitting time, and then 20 the third day, go out, do the same thing, and inspect i
21 10, 35 hangers, record all the information on our paper, 22 and then at the end of the week or at some point in time 23 that was convenient, we would do our paper work --
24 (Indica ting . ) .
Okay.
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9538 i O 1 And-that paper work would be --
2 A -- and then --
3 0 -- a single checklist --
4 A No.
5 0 - for each hanger?
6- A Right, yes, it would be one checklist per hanger.
7 (Indica ting. )
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay, fine.
i 3 9 . JUDGE CALLIHAN: How would you date the 1
10 checklists; the date you signed them or the date you did ,
4 11 the inspection?
12 THE WITNESS: We -- we did both. Sometimes we
- 13 date them and -- we date them the date of inspection, 14 and sometimes we'd just date them the day we filled out 15 the - paper work.
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Was that the same thing with 17 regard to the welding; that sometimes you reflected the 18 date of inspection and sometimes the date that you wrote
! 19 up the checklist?
! 20 THE WITNESS: Yes.
L 21 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay.
22 CROSS EXAMINATION
- 23 (Continued.)
24 BY MR. BERRY:
25 Q Do you recall, Mr. Martin, if you discussed with Mr.
)
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9539 1 Mendez your practices as n Welding Inspector that you 2 have just explained for us? Do you recall that that 3 subject came up?
4 A No, I don' t believe that came up -- well, excuse me.
5 Wait a minute.
6 I was thinking about what I was telling you about 7 over here.
8 Yes, I did explain to him that -- that sometimes 9 they'd just go through an area, and then when they 10 completed that area, they would fill out their paper --
11 paper work and just put the date that the paper work was 12 filled out in it.
13 (Indica ting .)
14 Q Do you recall --
15 JUDGE GROSSMAN: This is for the 16 configurations you are talking about?
17 THE WITNESS: No; for the welding.
I 18 JUDGE GROSSMAN: For the welding. Okay.
19 THE WITNESS: For the one checklist, for the 20 one checklist, for the one cover sheet with the --
21 whatever.
22 BY MR. BERRY:
23 Q Do you recall if you indicated to Mr. Mendez that 24 Inspectors would maintain their personal logs, their
{} 25 weld inspection records?
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9540 0 1 A I don't know if I did or not. I --
2 Q You don't recall if he asked you?
3 A No, I don't.
4 Our -- our one conversation was so centered around 5 Rick Saklak that I think we just really got -- I mean, 6 that was -- that was -- that took about two hours. I 7 think by that time, he felt he had enough.
8 I don't know anything -- other than what we talked 9 about Rick Saklak, I really can't recall what was said.
10 (Indicating.)
11 Q Mr. Martin, how did you learn that Mr. Saklak had been 12 terminated -- his employment had been terminated at 13 Braidwood?
14 A Irv DeWald held a meeting, and he officially told us 15 that Rick Saklak was suspended and that he would very 16 likely never be back at Braidwood.
17 Q Did Mr. DeWald say why?
18 A No, he didn't really. That's about all he said.
19 I -- he -- I think he f elt that everybody knew the 20 circumstances and he didn't really feel -- probably feel 21 the need to go into them.
22 (Indica ting. )
23 Q Did you feel you knew the circumstances?
24 A I -- I just knew that he threatened one of our 25 Inspectors, and other than that -- that's the only Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9541 1 circumstance that I was really fully aware of.
2 Q Mr. Martin, do you recall you were asked some questions 3 about some meeting that you had with Mr. Seese and Mr.
4 DeWald after Mr. Rolan observed you leaving a few 5 minutes early? Do you recall that?
6 A Yes, I do.
7 Q Okay.
8 I believe also in that meeting, you mentioned to 9 Mr. Seese that you went to the NRC?
10 A Yes, I did.
11 Q Do you recall how that subj ect came up?
(~g 12 A I brought it up.
%)
13 Q Do you recall why you brought it up?
14 A I felt that I just needed to break down some barriers 15 between us, and I felt that if I just mentioned that I 16 had gone there and that -- you know, that I wasn't 17 vehemently out to get even with them, I thought that 18 they would better understand my position.
19 Q Do you know if they knew you had gone to the NRC before 20 you told them?
21 A I -- yeah, I'm sure they knew.
22 Q Did you give Mr. Seese copies of the documents -- the 23 memos you received from the NRC?
24 A No.
25 Q Did you ever give copies of those memos to anyone?
(s Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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9542 1 A No.
2 Q In response to a question from one of the other counsel, 3 you had indicated that -- you stated that some documents 4 were always missing from the vault.
5 Do you remember so testifying?
6 A Yes, I do.
7 Q I wonder if you could just enlighten the Board, and 8 certainly this counsel:
9 How is it that a document can be lost from the 10 vault?
11 A Well, they get misfiled, and if a document gets gg 12 misfiled, it's like they go into a vortex, you know.
V 13 The -- we've got -- oh, we got probably over 200 14 file drawers in our vault, and it just -- some get 15 misplaced. Like I say, it's very hard to relocate it.
16 (Indicating.)
17 Also, I think there's -- well, sometimes things get 18 lost in a paper work shuffle, and they turn up later; 19 and we had -- during our doc review programs, we had 20 quite a few paper work shuffles, and -- and there were 21 just a lot of times we could not retrieve documentation.
22 (Indica ting . )
23 Q What do you do when you discover a document is lost?
24 A At that point in time, it just -- it's just lost. W e --
25 nothing was done about it.
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(_-)
1 (Indica ting . )
2 Q Do you make a record of that fact?
3 A No.
4 MR. BERRY: If I could have a minute, your 5 Honor, I think I would be at the end.
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Sure.
7 Do you want a five-minute recess now?
8 MR. BERRY: Yes.
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. We'll take five 10 minutes, 11 And we'll complete before lunch, hopefully?
12 MR. BERRY: Yes, yes.
13 (WHEREUPON, a recess was had, after which 14 the hearing was resumed as follows:)
15 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. We're back in session.
16 Mr. Berry.
17 MR. BERRY: Mr. Martin, I have no further 18 questions for you.
19 THE WITNESS: Oh.
20 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I have just a few questions.
21 BOARD EXAMINATION 22 BY JUDGE GROSSMAN:
23 Q Mr. Martin, if I understand the situation correctly, you 24 were a QC Inspector along with Mr. DeWald for some 25 months back in 1982, I believe?
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9544 J
d 1 A- Yes, '81 and '82.
I 2 Q '81 and '82.
i And then subsquently you had your certification 3
{ 4 . pulled or in limbo or some other status that you are not 5 exactly sure about, but then you had some retraining, 6 either the first time or thereafter, when you had your 7 certification in limbo again; isn't that so? -
8 A Yes.
9 Q Okay.
10 And now you've been involved with QC for, I guess, l 11 about five years in one capacity or another?
i -
, 12 A Over five.
C:)
13 Q Now, can you tell me whether you have some opinion as to 4 14 the quality of your inspections and the training that i 15 you had which led up to your ability to inspect during 16 that first period of inspections?
17 That was the period along with Mr. DeWald.
l
'18 A Well, I feel that my capability as far as looking at a 19 weld and determining -- and determining its
! 20 acceptability was very good.
l 21 I -- I really enj oyed looking at welds. It was i 22 just almost a joy to -- to go out there and look at
!' 23 welds. I really enjoyed it.
24 I liked looking at them, I liked examining the l
25 details, I liked the decision making involved. I just
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9545 4
1 1
- OL 1 enjoyed every aspect of that; and I felt I was really i
2 good and capable at it, and I enjoyed dealing with the 3 welders, almost every welder. I only had a problem with 4 maybe one or two; although I -- I would say that I was 5 completely unaware of -- of some of the responsibilities 6 that were put upon me as a nuclear grade inspector per I
7 ANSI 45.2.6.
8 I just never -- I never really understood. Even at 4-l 9 the point that -- that the CECO lawyer -- CECO auditors
, 10 found the precopied check marks, I j ust -- I couldn' t i 11 understand why they would be upset about it.
12 I felt that, you know, since -- since I had my 13 original signature on it, I felt that, you know, that' i
l 14- would reflect the fact that the -- the inspection was - -
l 15 was -- was performed and that it was acceptable, and --
, 16 Q Okay.
17 I just want to make sure I understand this 18 correctly.
You are, then, satisfied that, even in the earlier
~
19 20 , period, you were able to recognize, at least adequately, I
21 physical defects in the welds, such as undercut and all
{
i
- 22 the other things that we've heard about that go into j 23 visual inspection; is that so?
24 A Yes, as far as the welding aspect goes. I 25 (Indicating.) ;
l I
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. 9546 l i
o 1 Q Okay.
2 But now as far as all the procedural requirements 3 that go along with nuclear welding, that, in some
- 4 aspects, at least, your training was deficient?
5 A Yes.
- 6' Q Okay.
7 And that's what showed up in those subsequent i
8 audits in which you were under the gun, so to speak, or i
9 being criticized for what you had done?
i 10 A Yes, j 11 Q Okay --
12 A And --
() 13 Q -- okay.
14 A Can I go further on.that?
15 Q' Yes, you certainly may.
16 A I also f elt that -- see, this is the first quality job I
- 17 had, and I felt that the burden of -- of production-18 was -- was upon me, and I really made a strong ef fort to 19 work very hard, and -- which brought some criticism from .
- i. 20 my fellow Inspectors, even at that time, that I would do I
- 21 much more work than they would, and -- which raised ,
22 e'ebrows, also, I guess, in some points.
23 But as far as the configuration inspection area, I l 24 feel that that area was completely out of hand. There
- . 25 was -- it was ridiculous what we were doing as i
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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9547 O 1 Configuration Inspectors.
2 We could verify dimension, we could verify-3 material, and -- and sometimes we couldn't end hardly do 4 that.
5 Connection types we verified by sight. I'mean - -
6 when I say sight, I mean, "Well, this one looks like a i 7 W l. That could be a W 2. What do you think?" You 1
8 know, "Well, it's close enough," you know, and that was l
9 it. I mean, we didn't go up there and check the 10 configuration of any connection.
t 11 Q That's how you were taught to do it?
12 A Yes.
i O 13 Q And so you think your training in that aspect was
! 14 inadequate?
l Terrible, terrible.
15 A 16 One inspector, Level II Inspector, took his
- 17 trainees to one area, threw down the drawings and 18 procedure and said, "Here you go. I'll see you after 19 lunch," you know, and that's the way it went a lot of
{
I 20 times.
21 (Indicating.)
! 22 Irv was very -- I have to give him credit, you 23 know, because Irv was -- he was really just straight 24 down the line as far as -- as the standard was then, you
.25 know. We -- we all felt that we were being i
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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9548 1 professional; but as I look at it now, it was a 2 three-ring circus.
3 I mean, Irv went in there and said -- military, you 4 know - "What connection is that?" You know, I said, 5 "Well, it looks like a DV 1. " "No, don't you" -- you 6 know, and it was -- that was the type of training that 7 we went through; and it was -- you know, it was -- it 8 was not -- it just was not in -- applicable to the 9 seriousness and the intricacy that should be required in 10 a nuclea r-type inspection.
11 It was -- it was just we were in a whole different 12 ball field. We weren' t -- we just didn' t -- it was kind t
13 of like it was a non-chalant inspection. It was -- it 14 was conducive to mistakes, to overlook anything that 15 could be overlooked.
16 At one point in time, CECO came back and asked --
17 they asked Irv, you know, if -- if we were inspecting 18 the aux steels, and -- and he came back on us, you know,
- 19 and said, "You guys aren't inspecting the aux steels,"
20 you know, and then he said, "I told" -- this is kind of 21 a joke between all of us old-timers. He goes, "I told 22 you to inspect that aux steel," and we all knew that he 23 never had -- you know, he never had any idea that it 24 needed to be inspected, either, but -- so we had to 25 reinspect some; but -- but that -- you know, that was
)
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1 just the beginning, you know, and then it was we 2 inspected connection details and then it was we had to 3 verify this and that and -- and bolts and -- and vendor 4 welds.
5 0 You mean things that you hadn' t originally inspected?
6 A Yeah. It was just like making the rules as you go type 7 of thing. As we learned, then we learned how poorly we 8 were inspecting, and then we began to compensate, and 9 from.that point, our procedures just would change so 10 rapidly, because they constantly had to be upgraded as 11 the Inspectors became aware of things that were 12 completely ridiculous.
13 In fact, I can -- I can pinpoint a time -- I'm kind 14 of getting off the subject, ain't I?
15 0 Well, that's fine.
16 You can continue.
17 A Okay. I can pinpoint a time when an Inspector came from 18 another nuclear plant, he saw what we were doing, and at 19 that point, we really began to change a lot.
20 0 Who was that Inspector?
21 A Brian Baronowski.
22 He really brought a lot of big changes in our 23 office, because, you know, he had more knowledge.
24 Nobody else in our office had any experience at 25 a -- another nuclear plant besides Bob Brown, the
)
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9550 A
V 1 manager. We had all been hired out from the street, 2 and -- and we did -- everybody did many things that we 3 just didn't know better.
4 It's just that I decided I wasn't going to try and 5 cover myself. I was more aggressive in my productivity, 6 and I had determined that I would do everything I could 7 to complete the work in my area to keep current, and I 8 had made goals, I -- you know, I was really motivated, 9 and that just really bit me.
10 I didn' t realize what I was doing. Everybody else 11 was -- had a pretty good idea, but I didn't; but that's 12 kind of the way it -- the way it evolved; and I just 13 think that --
14 0 What do you mean they had a good idea? Of what now?
15 A Of my -- the way I inspected. I -- the other Inspectors 16 would see the way I would go out there and -- and just 17 work hard, and they kind of -- you know, they figured, 18 "Well, the more documentation you got in the vault, the 19 more mistakes you are going to make"; so the -- you
, 20 kn ow , I was just kind of -- you know, if some auditor 21 comes through and sees that I have done so much work, 22 they are going to point the finger at you, you know, 23 which has happened, and -- and they were -- I guess they 24 were more of aware of it than I was.
{} 25 Q You mean you were somewhat naive in trying to produce so Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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V 1 much and --
2 A Yes.
3 0 Okay.
4 A But that is -- that basically covers what I wanted to 5 say.
6 BOARD EXAMINATION 7 BY JUDGE COLE:
8 Q Mr. Martin, in response to a question by Chairman 9 Grossman, you mentioned ANSI standards, A-N-S-I, and 10 also talked about ASME Inspectors. ,
11 I got the impression that you worked for Comstock x, 12 during most of this period or for BESTC0 or its L.)
13 . successor.
14 Did you do much work under the inspection 15 standards -- ANSI inspection standards?
16 A I was not under the ANSI standards until I began working 17 at Braidwood.
18 We have -- when I worked at the railroad, they had 19 railroad standards, but it really didn't affect us as --
20 0 Well, what fraction of your work was done under the AWS 21 Dl.1 as compared to the ANSI or ASME?
22 I got certain impressions here. That's why I'm 23 interested.
24 I thought most of it was under the American Welding
{} 25 Society's Dl.l?
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9552 cm N ),
1 A Yes, it was all exclusively under AWS.
2 If I mentioned ASME, it was a mistake. I --
3 Q You also mentioned ANSI, A-N-S-I.
4 A Yes. We' re certified under ANSI 4 5.2.6.
5 Q But all your inspection work was under AWS Dl.l?
6 A AWS was merely a guideline. It -- it was not any type 7 of governing document.
8 They took undercut standards f rom AWS --
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN: From AWS?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Oh, okay.
12 A (Continuing.) -- and they took other standards from 13 AW S, but we had many things in our weld procedure that 14 were contrary to AWS, 15 We did not have any exposure to the actual AWS 16 manual. We strictly went by our procedure as -- as f ar 17 as guidelines for acceptance criteria.
l '18 BY JUDGE COLE:
19 0 Okay.
20 And that procedure, in your view, was adequately 21 stated?
22 A Well, there were always some problems that we had 23 with, for instance, transverse welds -- undercut and 24 transverse welds, transverse to the primary stress.
{} 25 Some QC Inspectors would complain that they were i
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1 not an engineer, they could not determine what was 2 undercut primary; but I guess as far as -- as far as I 3 can judge, they were adequate up to -- as far as 4 acceptance criteria is concerned.
5 Now, when we're getting into traceability of welds, 6 we' re getting into traceability of -- of welders, welder 7 qualifications, traceability of material within the 8 plant once we received it, all of that was completely 9 non-e xisten t,, I would say.
10 (Indicating.)
11 Q So life is a little more complicated in '86 than it was 12 in '82?
13 A Yes.
14 JUDGE COLE: All right, sir.
15 Thank you.
16 BOARD EXAMINATION 17 BY JUDGE GROSSMAN:
18 Q Those procedures that were not directly related to the 19 AWS Code, were they derived from the ANSI standards?
20 A Well, I'm sure indirectly.
21 The procedures reference our contract with the 22 designer, S&L, so our contract is L2790, and I've 23 looked through them, and -- and from that point, we went 24 into the ANSI standards; but as far as our procedures,
{} 25 they are derived from the contract, S & L 2790.
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1 (Indicating.)
2 Q Okay.
3 I was just trying to find out how ANSI standards 4 figured into this entire package.
S' And I take it mostly it was not direct reference to 6 ANSI standards; is that so?
7 A Yes, that's correct, although the ANSI 45.2.6 does 8 specifically detail what the qualifications are for a 9 Level I, Level II and Level III Inspector, and that 10 is -- I used ANSI in reference to specifically that 11 point of -- of the qualifications necessary to receive a l
12 Level I, II and III certification.
}
13 (Indication.)
! 14 JUDGE GROSSMAN: All right.
15 Do you have some questions?
! 16 BOARD EXAMINATION 17 BY JUDGE CALLIHAN:
18 Q Following that one just a moment, you speak of ANSI 19 45.6.
i 20 Do you know where, in what organization, 45.6 21 originated? ,
22 I'll give you an example.
23 You have agreed and said quite properly that what's 24 been alluded to as Dl.1 came out of the American Welding
{} 25 Socie ty.
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9555 1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q Now, do you know where 45.6 came from?
3 A American Standards National Institute; is that what you 4 are asking?
5 JUDGE CALLIHAN: Fine.
6 I have a couple other questions. Have you finished 7 over here?
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Yes.
9 JUDGE CALLIHAN: These are just 10 clarification, and maybe I'm being repetitious. I 11 apologiz e.
12 BY JUDGE CALLIH AN:
13 Q. But coming to the Staff Exhibit 16, which I think you 14 still have there, which is a comment on the -- or a 15 correction, if you-please, on the record from the i
- 16 Nuclear Regulatory Commission on the March, '85, 17 meeting, and in particular the letter, of which Staff 18 Exhibit 16 is an excerpt, is dated April 5, 1985.
19 At the top of Page 4 -- not the fourth page of the 20 Exhibit, because there are only three, but the page 21 numbered 4, you were recorded as having made a 22 statement, and then I think there was a correction to 23 it, and it's that that I would like to clarify.
24 At the top of the page, immediately under the 25 numbering of the page, is an asterisk and, quote, "I Sonntag Reporting Service, _ Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois eu134 i
(312) 232-0262 l
s 9556 O 1 spoke to him in my work area," unquote.
i 2 Whose writing is that?
l l 3 A That is mine.
l 4 Q All right.
5 So that's the correction that you did make?
6 A Yes, it is.
7 J UDG E CALLIH AN: Okay. Thank you.
8 I'm sorry if I am repetitious.
9 BY J UDG E CALLIH AN:
10 0 I'd like to go back quite a ways -- and I do this also 11 with apology, but it's kind of the way the system 12 works -- in particular, to Transcript 8329, which I 13 really don't expect you to have, but I'll supply a copy.
14 This was your testimony on Thursday, July the 17th, 15 which is kind of a long time ago, and th,e line'of 16 questioning at that time was directed to the period when 17 your certification was, as aptly put recently, in limbo, 18 and in particular I wanted to look at Page 8326 and Page 19 8329.
20 Oh, thank you, Mr. Gallo. I appreciate your 21 furnishing a copy.
22 On 8329, at about Line 14, where there is recorded 23 some inspections by yourself, and on my Line 14, it was 24 a reply to a question about being sent out into the
{) 25 field, I presume, and your reply is, "But I did," and I 1
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 9557 l O 1 presume, I repeat, you mean you were sent out to the 2 field, and you continued in your testimony, "I informed 3 my supervisor, Mike Kast, that I had some inspections I 4 wanted to clean up before I stopped."
5 Now, what did you mean there by the word " stopped"?
6 Stopped what and under whose direction did you stop?
7 A Well, I -- I -- I think I had some inspections that I 8 -
had in my notebook that I had inspected but I hadn't 9 turned them in yet --
10 (Indicating.)
11 Q Yes. Th a t I --
12 A -- and if 'I would have just -- if I would have stopped 13 at that point, the inspections would have my stamp on it 14 and they would have not been turned in.
- . 15 Q What did you stbp?
-Before you stoppad inspecting?.
j _16'
. '17 A Yes.
'18 Q And who told you that you should stop your inspections?
19 A Mike Kast.
i' 20 Q Mr. Kast.
21 And were you informed as to why you were to no i
22, longer do inspections?
23- A Yes.' I was told that my rejection rate with PTL was 24 very high, and that they wanted me to hold off or stop 25 / until they could catch up with me to see exactly what Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 the problem was. That's --
2 Q Was there any discussion then of your certifications?
3 A No, none.
4 Q No. I see.
5 JUDGE CALLIH AN: That's all I have.
6 Thank you very much.
7 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. We'll recess for 9 lunch.
10 Before that, do you have an estimate of time, Mr.
11 Guild?
12 MR. GUILD: I'd say less than an hour, Judge.
13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. So I assume we'll.
14 complete the witness some time this af ternoon -- I don' t 15 know -- and we ought to prepare for the next witness, 16 if that's the case.
17 MR. GUILD: He's present.
- 18 JUDGE GROSSMAN
- Okay, fine.
f 19 I just wanted to let counsel know what the 20 situation is.
, 21 So we'll recess until 1:15.
22 (WHEREUPON, the hearing was continued to 23 the hour of 1:15 o' clock P. M.)
24 5
(:)
- Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. '
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9559 d(m
- 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3 BEFORE THE ATOMIC SAFETY AND LICENSING BOARD 4
x 5 :
In the Matter of: :
6 : Docket No. 50-456 OL COMMONWEALTH EDISON COMPANY : 50-457 OL 7 :
(Braidwood Station, Units 1 :
8 and 2) :
__________________X 9
10 Met pursuant to recess.
11 Thursday, July 31, 1986.
1:15 P. M.
12 0 13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: We are back in session.
14 Mr. Gallo, do you have a preliminary matter?
15 MR. GALLO: Yes, your Honor.
16 Yesterday I had marked for identification as 17 Applicant's Exhibit 104 the single sheet of Mr. Martin 18 -- I should say a single sheet from Mr. Martin's 19 deposition that was identified in that deposition as 20 Exhibit No. 2.
21 I didn't have copies. I simply showed the witness
, 22 the copy that was in the deposition.
23 I now have copies. I simply would like to 24 circulate it to the Board and the parties and move it I
25 into evidence.
I (u) w l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Is there any objection?
2 MR. GUILD: No, sir.
3 MR. BERRY: No objection.
4 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Received.
5 (The document was thereupon received into 6 evidence as Applicant's Exhibit No. 104.)
7 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Now, we also have some 8 documents that Mr. Berry would like to introduce into 9 evidence, I believe.
10 MR. BERRY: Yes, Mr. Chairman.
11 The Staff would ask that Staff Exhibits 15 and 16 12 be received in evidence.
7-i ,
'~'
13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Is there any objection?
14 MR. GALLO: No objection.
15 MR. GUILD: No, sir. 16 is --
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN: 16 is in camera.
17 MR. BERRY: Yes.
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN: And they are both received.
19 (The documents were thereupon received 20 into evidence as Staff Exhibits Nos. 15 21 and 16.)
22 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Further preliminary matters 23 from the Board.
24 I believe I forgot to say this morning formally gS 25 that we are denying that motion to reconsider, so I will
%.) 1 l
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9561 O 1 say that right now.
2 Now, Judge Callihan has also pointed out to me that 3 I did request a document yesterday, a supplementation of 4 L.2790; but'there are also a few other documents that go 5 along with that, particularly two versions of Standard
-6 Form 1701, one contemporaneous with Amendment 30 and the 7 other version contemporaneous with Amendment 42.
8 So that, hopefully, will complete the package of
.9 doc umenta tion.
10 .Let me point out the only version we have of 11 Standard Form 1701 is in Applicant's Exhibit 9 and that 12 is effective on December 20, 1977. That was Revision G.
13 For all we know, that remained in effect throughout 14 the revisions of L.2790, though I would think that, 15 perhaps, it was revised some time.
16 Let's go off the record.
17 (There followed a discussion outside-the 18 record.)
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN: We are back on the record.
20 Are there any further preliminary matters?
21 (No response.)
22 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Fine. Let's continue then H l
23 with Mr. Martin's Cross Examination -- I am sorry --
24 Redirect by Mr. Guild.
25 MR. GUILD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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9562 r3 V
- 1 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. GUILD 3 O Mr. Martin, let's turn to the incident in September of 4 1983, involving the notes that you found in your place 5 of inspection work, the diesel generator room.
6 The notes themselves have been received in 7 evidence, identified as Intervenors' Exhibit 83.
8 Without reading the choicer language that is 9 contained in the notes, would you agree that the author 10 criticizes your weld inspection work for being too 11 picky?
1 12 A Yes.
13 0 And would you agree that the author or authors of the 14 other note urges you to go and inspect welds in some 15 other location?
16 A Yes, it does.
17 Q And couples that suggestion that you go elsewhere with a 18 threat to smash your head?
?
19 A Yes.
. 20 0 Now, were other Comstoch QC Inspectors aware of this 21 note after you discovered it and brought it to the 22 attention of your manage.nent?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And they were aware of it because, in part, you talked i
25 to them about it, I take it?
l O
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9563 O 1 A Yes.
2 Q Did you show-the note itself to anyone else, other 3 inspectors?
4 A Yes. I showed it to a few people. I can ' t remembe r 5 who, but I did show it to some other individuals.
'6 Q And your testimony reflects, of course, that Mr. Rolan, 7 as I understand it, in any event, after you took the 8 note to Mr. DeWald and he contacted Rolan, Rolan in turn 9 showed it to the entire crew and supervision that were 10 involved in overseeing the craft work in the diesel 11 generator room area; correct?
12 A Well, since I wasn't present at the meeting that Frank
' O. 13 Rolan had with all of his people, I -- you know, I don't 14 -- I would suppose, yes, he showed it to them but I-15 can't --
16 Q Isn't it your understanding that Rolan, in effect, asked 17 those who were likely to have been present doing weld 18 work at the time, including the welders' supervision up 19 through the General Foreman level, whether they, in
! 20 fact, had authored the note?
1 21 Isn't that your understanding of what happened?
22 A Yes.
23 Q So I know you weren't physically present but your i
, 24 unde rstanding was that, in effect, the craft were shown 25 the note that had been directed to you?
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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v 1 MR. GALLO: I object.
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Yes. I think it's 3 objectionable.
4 Does it say in Mr. Rolan's note that he had shown 5 that to everybody?
6 MR. GUILD: It doesn't, but my question 7 really only goes to the witness's understanding.
8 BY MR. GUILD:
9 0 It says that a meeting was held with the following 10 pe rsonnel --
11 MR. GALLO: The question has been asked and 12 answer.
O 13 He said he doesn't know, because he wasn't present.
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN: What number is that?
15 MR. GUILD: It's 83, Judge.
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Applicant's or Intervenors'?
17 MR. GUILD: Intervenors' 83.
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, we have already had 19 one answer; and if there is a pending question, the 20 objection is sustained to it.
i 21 MR. GUILD: On what grounds, Mr. Chairman?
l 22 JUDGE GROSSMAN: The grounds that it's 23 speculation now and, secondly, what is his opinion of it
. 24 is not relevant.
25 MR. GUILD: I disagree, Mr. Chairman; but I
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9565 P
b 1 will respect your --
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I assume your question was 3 asked in order to ascertain whether the other inspectors-4- were aware and the other people involved were aware of 5 the circumstances.
6 Now, he has already exhausted his information with 7 regard to that and I don't think that it's profitable to 8 have any further answers; but continue on your 9 questioning, Mr. Guild.
10 MR. GUILD: I will, Mr. Chairman.
11 BY MR. GUILD:
12 0 You stated, generally, in response to earlier questions, 13 Mr. Martin, that the response by your management was not 14 satisfactory to you at the time?
15 A Well, I just felt -- well, they were definitely 16 down-playing the situation, which I didn't feel is total 17 neglect of the situation but I did -- they did down-play 18 the situation.
19 Q Your opinion, as I recall you stating it, was that they 20 didn't take strong enough action to discipline those who 21 were responsible for writing the note?
i 22 They didn't take any action to discipline them, did 23 they?
l l 24 A That's correct.
25 0 And that that opinion was shared by the other QC Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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v i 1 Inspectors who learned of the circumstance through the 2 method that you described?
3 A Yes.
4 MR. GALLO: Objection.
5 This whole line is repetitious of what has gone 6 before. I don't know what the purpose of --
7 MR. GUILD: It's simply a foundation.
8 If.I can ask the questions, I will proceed; but I 9 don't think there is any dispute about this being the 10 witness's testimony.
11 It was taken two weeks ago. I am trying to simply 4
12 get him back to the point where we are at today.
() 13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: If there are a few questions 14 on refreshing the witness's recollection of the !
15 testimony so we have a foundation, continue; but please 16 don't belabor the matters that we have already heard.
17 MR. GUILD: All right.
18 BY MR. GUILD:
I 19 0 The fact of the matter is, Mr. Martin, that aside from i 20 whether you believe that the individuals involved were, 21 in fact, going to carry through on their threat to smash i
22 your head or to be physically violent with you, the 23 author of the note, this welder Mr. Ott, got exactly l
24 what he was seeking: He got you moved out of that area, 25 didn't he?
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.o) 1 A Yes, he did.
2 Q Your management moved you; Mr. DeWald removed you from 3 the area where the welder had complained about your 4 being too picky with his welds?
5 A That's right; and that was for him a victory, just so to 6 speak.
- 7. O And that victory was understood by the other inspectors 8 as just that: The craft got what they were looking for?
9 A Yes, I think the inspectors interpreted it that way and 10 also other craft.
11 Q And later you had difficulty getting along with the i
12 craft in that area because -- before you had been -
O 13 transferred out of the area, because -- their attitude 14 toward you changed?
15 A Yes.
16 0 Is that right?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Was that change in attitude understood oy you to be 19 attributable to management's failure to take more direct
- 20 and firm action with the craft?
21 A That -- yes, that was a contribution.
22 I feel it was definitely -- could have been done or 23 executed in a much better manner than what it was done.
4,
! 24 0 All right, sir. On another matter, Applicant has been 25 kind enough to find the attachments to Intervenors'
)
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9568 O 1 Exhibit 80; and that was a warning issued to you on the 2 30th of January, 1985, by Mr. Seese.
3 You remember the document I am talking about? It
~
4 had a list of attachments.
5 A Yes.
6 Q We have supplied the attachments or the attachments have 7 been supplied by Applicant.
8 One of those attachments is a document -- and I am 9 afraid -it has a Bates number on it that I can't read.
10 It's about halfway through the stack.
11 But it appears to be a form with the title, " Daily 12 progress report," a date and then under the inspector O -
13 block it has, "R. Martin," written there.
14 Can you identify that document?
15 A Yes, I can. It is a daily status report or an hourly 16 status report that Mr. Seese had me maintain.
17 0 Is this the form that you described in response to Mr.
18 Berry's questions was uniquely developed by Mr. Seese 19 for your use?
{ 20 A Yes.
21 MR. GUILD: I believe counsel has a copy of 22 it.
23 Perhaps, I can show it to the Board. It's about 24 halfway through, Judge.
25 (Indicating.)
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i Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
I Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9569 1 JUDGE CALLIHAN: Thank you.
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN: And it's entitled, " Daily 3- progress report"?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes.
5 BY MR. GUILD:
6 Q Now, I note on the bottom of the form, just above the 7 signature block, there are two numbered lines.
8 Are those, in effect, instructions on how you are 9 to complete the form?
10 A They_are just, yes, general instructions that I was to 11 go by on a daily basis.
12 Q And would you read instruction No. 2 for the record, O 13 please?
14 A "Please account for all working hours."
15 Q That was the instruction that called for you to detail 16 on an hourly basis what the status of your work was for 17 each day?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Now, you talked about having your certs pulled or 20 suspended as a result of a CECO audit.
21 The suspension of your certs took place in October 22 of 1983; is that right?
23 A Yes, it is.
24 Q Now, as I recall your testimony in response to Mr.
25 Gallo's questions, you described generally the scope of i
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l 1 that audit.
2 I understood your testimony to be that the audit 3 included subjects beyond simply the photocopying of 4 checklists; isn't that right?
5 A (No response.)
6 0 Maybe I am being obscure.
7 I recall your testimony, Mr. Martin, to the effect 8 that as a result of that audit, Mr. DeWald had a meeting 9 with inspectors and only then directed inspectors that a 10 single checklist was to be used for each hanger and that 11 the checklist was to be taken to the field and used in 7- 12 the field to document the field-observed conditions 13 during the course of an inspection.
14 A Okay. You are partially correct in your statement.
15 At that time of the audit finding, the inspector --
16 each inspector was given a copy of the procedure and at 17 that time they were told to do their paper work at the 18 time of the inspection; whereas, when you stated one 19 checklist for each hanger, that was initiated some time 20 earlier from that point.
21 0 I see. The significance of the instruction that came 22 after the Commonwealth Edison audit was that the paper 23 work was to be taken to the field; is that right?
24 A Yes, the paper work was to be done in the field at the 25 time of the inspection.
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9571 1 Q At the time of the inspection instead of documenting it 2 in your personal notebooks and then carrying it back to 3 the office and doing it at some later date; is that 4 right?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Now, again, another attachment to Intervenors' 80 --
7 this is the last two pages of that attachment -- are 8 documents that bear the title, "Comstock Company 9 training session." They have a date of December 2, 10 1983. They appear to reflect a training session on the 11 subject, " Weld Installation Record Form."
12 I note that there are two pages listing attendees.
(,)
13 I haven't taken the time to find your name there; but 14 since it's attached to this memo, I assume that you were 15 present at that training.
16 Were you?
17 A I don't believe I was.
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Wait. I am sorry.
19 The last page, the middle column, next to the last 20 line, is that what we are looking at?
21 BY MR. GUILD:
22 Q Does that appear to be your signature?
23 A Yes, it is.
24 Q That appears to document that you were present at such a r3 25 training session?
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9572 l}
(/
1 A Yes.
2 Q All right. Now, my question is: Take a moment and look 3 at the form, if you would. I read the subject for you
. 4 in part.
5 Thereafter it states, "All attendees were 6 instructed in the use and preparation of the above form.
7 All attendees were given copies of thus and such with 8 attachments." It gives a memo number.
9 Can you recall what the subject matter was of that 10 training session, aside from the title I just read?
11 A Well, just going strictly by the title and also by the 12 people that signed it, this was -- this is evident, very 13 evident -- this was a training session which introduced 14 our Weld Installation Records, where we had to -- where 15 the engineers began recording the joint details 16 according to the AWS and wherever they could get their 17 WPS to show where they could get their weld procedure 18 specifications from.
19 Q All right. Let me just ask this: Does this document 20 reflect the training session that Mr. DeWald gave to the 21 Weld Inspectors after the CECO Audit Report that was the 22 basis for pulling your certs for the photocopied 23 checklist?
24 A No.
,f- 25 Q Do you know when that training took place, Mr. Martin?
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'v) 1 A (No. response.)
2 0 The training by Mr. DeWald about taking the checklist to 3 the field and completing them at the time of an
, 4 inspection.
l 5 A Within a couple of days after I had talked to Mr.
6 Shewski; and I am sure that -- I can almost guarantee 7 that that meeting was not documented. He just got 8 everybody together and gave them that warning and, also 9 -- l e t me se e .
10 Also, he had people order procedures that didn't 11 have them to, you know, make sure they had a procedure.
12 The only --
0 13 Q The -- I am sorry.
14 A I am aware -- I am aware of a memo that was issued maybe 15 a month later, in which Irv repeated the warning that 16 inspectors will be completing their checklists in the 17 field.
18 Q All right. Now, your certs were pulled, as I recall 19 from the documents, in October of 1983.
20 Did this warning by Mr. DeWald come before your 21 certs were pulled?
~
22 A Aftet.
23 Q After, all right. Shortly after, as you recall?
P 24 A Yes.
25 Q About October of 1983 then?
1 Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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9574 1 A Yes.
2 Q Now, how did you learn of the results of this 3 Commonwealth Edison Company audit, Mr. Martin?
4 A Through Irv DeWald.
5 Q How did the audit learn of your practice in photocopying 6 checklists?
7 A Much. later I found out that CECO had already identified 8 these problems and I believe there was an open audit on 9 it previous to that point that Byron came down.
10 They were doing kind of a round-robin audit, I 11 don't know; but Byron people were~down there doing the 12 audit and they are the ones that found it.
13 It was brought -- it was brought to -- excuse me.
14 Now I lost track of the question.
15 0 I asked you how the auditors learned of your practice of 16 photocopying checklists.
17 Do you recall a conversation with Mr. Shewski of 18 Commonwealth Edison Company?
19 A Yes.
20 Q What were the circumstances in which you had a 21 conversation with him?
22 A Well, they found the checklists and they had some 23 definite questions about them and we had a meeting 24 together and --
25 0 Who is we now?
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1 A Myself, Irv DeWald, Shewski.
I 2 O Who is Mr. Shewski?
3 A He is the head of CECO QA.
4 Q All right.
J
, 5 A There were a lot of CECO auditors there. There were j 6 auditors from Byron.
- 7 I explained to Mr. Shewski that I took my notes and j 8 filled my checklist out. He asked me if I took a
, 9 procedure with me. I said no. I did not have a
! 10 procedure.
11 He asked me if I filled the checklist out -- excuse i 12 me.
() 13 He asked me if I took the checklist and used it for 14 points of inspection as I inspected the welding; and I
- 15 said no, I did not.
16 And at that point he simply said, " Retrain him,"
17 and that was it. That was the meeting.
i 18 Q Okay. Now, what did that meeting have to do with these 19 audit findings, if you know, the audit findings with 20 regard to the checklists?
j 21 A I think that was -- I guess they were very concerned 22 that the checklists were forged or frauded and they were i
23 -- they just were questioning me about that subject and i
24 that's what they were afraid of. They were afraid that 25 they had been changed.
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9576 O 1 Q Let me just get this straight in time. The audit was 2 conducted. The audit found the practice of you 3 photocopying checklists.
4 Thereafter the meeting took place at which Mr.
5 Shewski was present and he asked you the questions that 3
6 you have just described?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Now, in the course of those questions, you have just 9 said that you volunteered to Mr. Shewski that you did J
10 not even use the checklists in the field for inspecting j 11 weld attributes?
g- 12 A That's correct.
l 13 Q He made the instruction that you should be retrained; is i
14 that your testimony?
15 A Yes.
, 16 Q Are you aware of any other corrective action that was
- 17 taken as a result of the finding that checklists were 18 not being used in the field?
- 19 A Yeah. Irv got everybody together and at that time he 20 told them that they would begin to use the checklists in 1 21 the field, t
22 Q So Mr. DeWald's instructions to all the Weld Inspectors j 23 resulted from Mr. Shewski making this inquiry of you 24 about whether you used the checklists in the field; is 25 that your understanding?
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r 9577 1 A Yes.
2 Q Well, did you tell Mr._Shewski that you had been trained 3- to use the checklists up until that point the way you
.4 had been using the checklist?
5 A No. I didn't see any reason to get into that.
6 I felt that -- when he said retrain, I felt that I 7 was going to be given just maybe a 15-minute training 8 session, told not to make photocopies anymore and that 9 was going to be it.
10 Q You weren't the only inspector that was following the 11 documentation practice that you described to Mr.
12 Shewski, were you?
O 13 A No.
14 0 Isn't that the practice that you understood was 15 generally being used by Weld Inspectors at Comstock?
16 A Yes. ,
17 Q And that's the practice that you were trained in by Mr.
18 DeWald?
19 A No. Photocopying, that was --
20 0 I don't mean the photocopying. I mean the practice of 21 doing the field inspections and then completing your 22 documentation later and not using the checklists --
23 A Yes.
24 0 -- to match attributes?
25 A Yes, most definitely; and all the other trainers that I Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 had carried on the same practice.
2 O You were responding to some questions by Mr. Gallo 3 yesterday again on the question of the threatening note, 4 the note that you believe was written by Mr. Ott.
5 Mr. Gallo asked you whether or not in the first 6 meeting you had with Mr. Rolan you identified Mr. Ott as 7 the welder you believe was the author.
8 As I recall your answer, you weren't sure whether 9 that was the meeting when you told them or not.
10 Whether that was the meeting or not, Mr. Martin, do 11 you recall telling anybody in management that it was
,_s 12 your belief that Mr. Ott was the welder who was the t i 13 likely author, because the installation where you found 14 the note was an installation that had been welded by Mr.
15 Ott?
16 A I can -- I don't think there was really a time that I 17 was allowed to express these ideas at that time.
18 The investigation was taken, if I might say, 19 completely out of my hands as far as any input that I 20 would have.
21 When I reported it, the decision was, just bring 22 him in and talk to him; and it was -- nothing else was 23 dwellt upon.
24 If this contradicts my former testimony, I --
25 0 I want your best recollection as of today, Mr. Martin.
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9579 1 A I may have mentioned it but I don't really remember 2 pointing that out at that time.
3 Q Do you recall anyone in management asking you who you 4 believed was the author of the note?
5 A No.
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Mr. Martin, it's difficult 7 testifying about events that happened some time ago and 8 it's understandable that, after having questions on an 9 area, you may think about it and recall that you erred 10 in your testimony; and that's fine.
- 11 You ought to bring it to our attention if that g 12 happened and clarify.
(s 13 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you.
14 BY MR. GUILD:
15 Q Mr. Martin, you testified earlier that some time in 1982 16 -- I believe you said about September -- you were 17 informed that you were to nc longer perform weld 18 inspections for a time, because there had been an 19 unusually high rejection rate of your work by PTL l 20 overview inspectors?
! 21 A Yes.
1 22 Q Do you recall that testimony?
23 A Yes.
24 0 Who brought to your attention the results of the PTL i
- 25 overview inspections of your work?
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9580 O 1 A Mike Kast.
2 O Did Mr. Kast show you any documented reports of the PTL 1 3 overview inspections?
4 A Yes, he did.
5 Q Can you describe what Mr. Kast showed you at that. time?
6 A Yes. He showed me specifically, I remember, two cable 7 tray hangers and 426 elevation, 1-3052 drawing.
l 8 Q Is that a drawing number?
9 A Yes.
10 Q 1-30?
11 A Yes, 1-3052H drawing.
12 0 That's a hanger?
O 13 A Yes, cable tray hanger.
, 14 Q All right.
15 A One hanger number was H119 and the other one was hanger 16 H75.
17 And on these two hangers, it had a detail on the 18 horizontal in which I had measured the weld on the tube 19 steel improperly and they were too small and --
20 0 You failed to identify an undersized weld; is that 21 correct?
j 22 A Yes.
23 0 I am sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt unduly.
I i
24 Was there something else?
i 25 A That was the same problem I had on both of those Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
t ueneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9581 O 1 hange rs .
2 O All right. Was that the document that Kast showed you 3 reflecting the PTL overview of your work?
4 A That was part of the documents.
5 Also, he noted that about the conflict or the 6 mistake that I made with the CS hangers, where I missed 7 the groove weld detail; and that was the major part of
'8 the findings at that time. ;
9 0 What is a CS hanger, Mr. Martin?
10 A Oh, it's called a ceiling strap, abbreviation for that.
11 Q Is it a simple strap hanger; is that basically what it 12 is?
') 13' A Yes. It's a plate, various plate sizes.
14 They have variations to the CS, a lot of 15 variations; but --
16 0 Where on that hanger was the groove weld detail that you 17 improperly inspected?
18 A It was at the top. It was a -- it was a lap weld that 19 was welded in the horizontal position -- a flat weld, 20 horizontal position. A groove weld, it would be the 21 flat position.
22 At the top of the CS hanger.
23 Q From hanger to what?
24 A To embed plate.
25 0 This was the attachment weld?
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 A Yes,'it is.
2 0 You indicated in testimony earlier the high PTL reject 3 rate.
4 Did Mr. Kast describe to you what your reject rate 5 was aside from these specific instances?
6 A Actually, I believe my rate -- my actual rate -- was 7 never discussed; but at a later point it was researched ,
B 8 what my rejection rate was, and it was favorable 9 compared to other inspectors. .
10 It's just that I was performing so much more work, 11 when my rejections started coming in, it looked like a 12 wave; but, yet, it was -- just from the amount of work
() 13 that I was doing, it was still the actual percentage 14 rate was acceptable as compared to the other inspectors. .
15 Q How did you learn that your rejection rate had been 16 researched?
17 A Through the audit which happened from my precopied check 18 marks.
19 Q A follow-up audit?
l 20 A Yes.
21 Q And that follow-up audit looked at your past work?
L 22 A Yes.
23 Q Who made known to you what the result is or what the
[ l 24 results were of that research of your past work?
25 A Bruce Brown was in charge of that audit, and he carried (
l '
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j 1 out all the research work.
2 2 He was in charge of the reinspections that were F 3 done on me and he kind of kept me informed of all the j
4 information _that was being found during the reinspection
- 5 program and investigations and all that, everything I 6 entailed with the audit.
!- 7 Q Did you ever see a report of that audit?
8 A No, I have not.
i 9 Q Mr. Martin, would you describe your Weld Inspector stamp 10 or symbol?
x, 11 A It's a three-point arrow with a circle underneath.
l i 12 Some people --
() 13, Q I want to give you a sheet of paper and I would ask you 14 if you would simply draw a representation of your i 15 symbol.
I: 16 MR. GALLO: I object to this as being 1
l 17, . irrelevant.
} 18 JUDGE GROSSMAN: You object on the grounds l 19 that it's irrelevant?
! 20 MR. GALLO: Yes.
) 21 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Mr. Guild, is there any ,
22 relevance to this?
l 23 MR. GUILD: Certainly. I want to be able to i
- 24 look at what Applicant has introduced in evidence as Mr.
25 Martin's --
l .
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l 1 JUDGE GROSSMAN: His notebooks? i i 2 MR. GUILD: His notebooks and be able to lI*
1 f_ 3 interpret the data.
I
] 4 JUDGE GROSSMAN: That have the' symbol?
a i 5 MR. GUILD: Yes.
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN: That's fine., Overruled. i t
4 7 MR. GALLO: Can't it be off the record. i I
8 MR. GUILD: No, on the record.
9 Since you put it in evidence, I. would like to be 10 able to identify on the record which of those items were i
l 11 Mr. Martin's work. ,
i 12 JUDGE GROSSMAN: My recolle'ction is there are
.O 13 those symbols in the notebooks.
l 14 MR. GALLO: Yes,'and I asked him a question 15 about that. +
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Pardon?
17- MR. GALLO: I don't understand. Maybe I am l 1
18 missing something here. "
1,
-19 The notebooks are authored by Mr. Martin. All the f
! 20 little jottings in the notebook belong to him. p 21 MR. GUILD: Yes; and if true ---
22 MR. GALLO: The squiggle that I asked about ;
23 was his weld symbol, as I recall.
24 What are we doing here? What am I missing?
t i 25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: We are getting a code to be i
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a 9585 O 1 able to interpret the notebooks that are in evidence.
2 MR. GUILD: You looked at it; Counsel looked 3 at it.
4 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I don't see anything 5 objectionable about that.
6 ,
MR. GALLO: It seems to me to waste time but 7 I withdraw the objection.
8 MR. GUILD: Run a clock on me and we will see j
9 how long it takes to get the answer to the question 10 absent further colloquy.
11 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Mr. Guild, that is not
- 12 necessary. He has withdrawn the objection.
13 A That closely resembles the stamp.
14 (Indicating.)
15 BY MR. GUILD:
16 0 It appears to be an arrowhead; is that right?
17 A Yes, or a Christmas tree or an arrow.
18 Q All right, sir. Did you ever have any other Weld 19 Inspector symbols aside from this, Mr. Martin?
20 A Yes, I have.
21 Q What other symbols did you have?
22 A I lost my weld stamp!for about a week; and during that 23 period of time, I was issued a stamp that was the letter 24 I.
25 Q I?
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9586 p,
d 1 A Yes.
2 Q Did you ever have a weld symbol that was the same as the 3 symbol that was used at some time by Mr. DeWald?
4 A No.
5 Q Did you ever have J as a weld stamp symbol?
6 A No.
7 MR. GUILD: Mr. Chairman, I ask that this 8 representation by the witness of his weld symbol be 9 marked as an exhibit.
10 JUDGF GROSSMAN: That is Intervenors' 85.
11 MR. GUILD: All right, sir, Intervenors' 85 12 and I will supply copies for the record.
O 13 I would ask that it be marked and received in 14 evidence.
15 (The document was thereupon marked 16 Intervenors' Exhibit No. 85 for 17 identification as of July 31, 1986.)
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Any objection?
d 19 MR. GALLO: No.
20 MR. BERRY: No.
21 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Admitted.
22 (The document was thereupon received into 23 evidence as Intervenors' Exhibit No. 85.)
24 BY MR. GUILD:
25 0 Now, you stated, Mr. Martin, with respect to the 3
a Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 incident that took place more recently this year 2 involving Mr. Krone, the craft foreman, that you believe 3 his motives were, in large part, personal because of 4 dealings that you and he had had that were not directly 5 relevant to your quality-control duties.
6 Did I understand your testimony correctly?
7 A Yes.
8 Q I won't rehash that, those dealings.
9 Nonetheless, aside from what may have gone on 10 between you and Mr. Krone, you were at the time a 11 Quality Control Inspector and at the time had to
, 12 interact with craft and craft supervision, including
( ,)
13 persons in Mr. Krone's position in the course of your 14 quality-control duties; correct?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Now, in addition, as I recall -- we don't have before us 17 the document that Mr. Krone authored; but, as I recall 18 -- your description, it was a newspaper account of 19 hearings on the inspector harassment contention that we 20 are having a hearing on today; correct?
21 A Yes, that's correct.
22 Q And in some part, it made reference to the inspection of l
l 23 numbers of welds by Comstock Welding Quality Control l
l 24 Inspectors, the number 500 or more in a single day?
l
-3 25 A Yes.
b Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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9588 O l- Q Mr. Krone, you understood, had affixed to this Xerox 2 copy of a newspaper article on this subject a note 3 mentioning your name?
4 A My nickname.
5 Q Your nickname?
6 A That's what I am known by out in the field, as Opie.
7 Q All right.
8 A So be highlighted my name and put a note at the top and 9 said, "Is this Opie," and circled it; and then all the 10 Xerox copies of the article had my name highlighted in 11 yellow.
g 12 Q Rick. Martin highlighted in yellow?
13 A Yes. I mean each copy was highlighted yellow and then l
14 it had that statement at the top.
15 Q And these copies were found by you in various locations l 16 around the site; is that right?
17 A Yes.
18 Q I believe you said that when you subsequently had an 19 encounter with Mr. Krone directly, Mr. Krone said to 20 another person present words to the effect, "Here is 21 that dumb guy that did 500 welds in a day"?
22 MR. GALLO: Objection.
23 I move to strike this entire line. All Mr. Guild 24 is doing is rehearsing his findings by asking leading 25 questions that the witness can agree to or not agree to, Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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9589 q
V 1 simply not furthering the record at all.
2 MR. GUILD: I am simply trying to establish 3 foundation.
-4 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Your objection is on grounds 5 that he is leading the witness?
6 MR. GALLO: No. It's on grounds that is 7 cumulative; it's immaterial; it's matters that he has 8 gone through previously.
9 All he is doing is rehearsing his findings from 10 evidence that has already been adduced in the record and 11 simply for whatever reason, I guess, trying to elicit it 12 all over again from the witness O 13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, I can't recall if 14 every single question had been answered before.
15 I know that he is responding to your line of 16 questioning that would relegate this particular incident 17 to personal rather than quality matters and he is 18 relating it the best he can to quality matters.
l 19 Now, if the questions have already been asked, 20 again, I would ask Mr. Guild not to repeat it; but if 21 they haven't -- and I can't remember f or sure about each 22 -- then I think it's within the scope of the Direct -- I
(
l 23 am sorry -- within the scope of your Cross.
l 24 MR. GALLO: I can assure you they have been.
l 3 25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Pardon?
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9590 fs b 1 MR. GALLO: I can assure you your Honor, 2 they have been. They have been asked both by myself and 3 Mr. Guild previously in this same area.
4 The reason I didn't object sooner is because I 5 thought they were foundation question. This is Question 6 No. 6 or 7 and that's why, what prompted the objection.
7 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I don't know about the 8 particular question that is being asked right now, Mr.
9 Guild, but I would ask that you not repeat.
10 MR. GUILD: Mr. Chairman, I am simply trying 11 to refresh the witness's recollection getting back to
~ 12 where I can ask a question.
13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. It's a foundation.
14 MR. GUILD: It is indeed a foundation 15 question.
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Proceed then.
17 MR. GUILD: I don't think there is any 18 dispute about the testimony.
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Proceed.
20 BY MR. GUILD:
21 Q Krone said, you testified, did I understand correctly, 22 Mr. Martin, "Here is the dumb guy that inspected 500 23 welds in a day," or words to that effect?
24 A Well, not at that exact point; but the next day that was 25 -- he said that after we had our confrontation or Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. _
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1 altercation where he pushed me and pointed his finger in 2 my face.
3 0 And then at that point, whatever the words were, he made 4 a reference to your weld inspection practices?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q He wasn't making a reference to the personal colloquy 7 that you had had about his politics or his ethnicity, 8 was it?
9 A No, it was not.
10 Q Now, were other inspectors aware that Mr. -- that 11 someone had put up these notes with, " Rick Martin, 500
_ 12 welds a day," highlighted and, "Is this Opie," or words
~
13 to that effect written on it?
14 A Yes.
15 In fact, now that you mention it, I had one 16 inspector pull me aside and began really giving me a 17 hard time.
18 He said, "You know, you are in a lot of trouble, 19 you know that?" I said, "What are you talking about?"
20 He said, "Look at this," and he showed it to me; and it 21 was kind of like, you know, I was guilty already.
22 And I took it -- I got a little upset. I took it 23 and tore it up. I said, "This is something that you 24 don't understand," and so it was having an effect.
25 O The notes that you saw, the copies of this newspaper Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262 i ___ _ _ _ _ -_ . . _
9592 O 1 article with Mr. Krone's editorial comments, they were 2 there for craf t people to see as well, weren't they?
3 A Yes.
4 Q They were circulated around the site?
5 A Yes, they were.
6 Q Now, in this instance as well, you were removed from 7 your inspector duties; isn't that correct?
8 A Yes, that's correct.
9 Q And you were transferred to your non-quality control 10 position that you hold and that as a technician?
11 A Yes.
12 0 In this instance, again, quality control management, (s'-) 13 instead of supporting the Quality Control Inspector, 14 gave craft what they were after: Tney removed Opie from 15 inspection activities?
16 MR. GALLO: Objection.
17 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Overruled. You can answer 18 that question.
19 A I --
20 MR. GALLO: Can I be heard on my objection?
21 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay, 22 MR. GALLO: It's the form of the question.
j 23 There is no foundation for the suggestion in the 24 question that instead of supporting the QC Inspector, 25 they did something else.
l l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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9593 1
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0 l That's his opinion and judgment based on his view 2 of the record and --
l 3 MR. GUILD: It's a question.
4 MR. GALLO: -- by implication he is trying to 5 get this witness to testify to it.
4
- l. 6 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Your objection isn't on lack ;
i 7 of foundation but it's on leading question?
l 8 MR. GALLO: No foundation for the suggestion 9 in terms of the question that is being asked that QC 1 10 management was supporting or not supporting a QC
} 11 Inspector in this instance with respect-to his transfer.
12 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. Then it's overruled.
O 13 I think there is foundation for that.
l 14 You can answer the question.
f 15 A .Well, at that period of time, we were having a lot of 4
16 friction with the craft in areas that -- especially with 17 myself.
i 18 I had been called in to two different meetings i 19 because the craft was complaining that I had been too l
- 20 picky on them; and in one case the Comstock Supervisor
( 21 was called in, the General Foreman, Area General :
22 Foreman, on down, my supervisor, both shop stewards and 23 ue had a discussion on cleaning out tray.
24 It was something that -- let me see. I was -- I 25 was -- they felt I was making an issue out of nothing.
O.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
L Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9594 1 Our procedure was stating that all visible debris 2 would be cleaned out of cable trays and I was holding 3 them to it; and they were just really getting upset 4 about it and there were many other things.
5 I wrote -- while I was on nights, I believe I wrote 6 probably a couple NCR's, Nonconformance Reports, and I 7 probably wrote five or six ICR's, Inspection Correction 8 Report.
9 To my knowledge, I was the only inspector on the 10 night shift that had wrote any nonconformances or 11 Inspection Correction Reports for bend radius problems 12 and such as that.
O 13 So I do feel that it was a factor. I think that if 14 they could get me on something, it would certainly make 15 Jerry Krone look good in the eyes of his -- with his 16 peers and with the people that he acaociated with.
17 If he could damage my reputation, I think for those 18 reasons, also, it would be very -- it would have been 19 good for him to do, because it would have made it very 20 hard for me to continue inspecting and to, you know, 21 maintain the high quality that I tried to keep in my 22 inspection work.
23 BY MR. GUILD:
24 O Mr. Martin, finally, there was a reference to a point in 25 time where you had a meeting with Mr. Seese and Mr.
\
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9595 b,m 1 DeWald at the urging of your pastor?
2 A Yes.
3 0 You thought about suing them and your pastor suggested 4 you go and talk to them first and you did?
5 A Yes, I did.
6 Q Intervenors' Exhibit 82 is the collection of documents 7 that begins with -- it involves a warning for leaving 8 three minutes early. It began with Mr. Rolan's memo, 9 and the second and following pages are ,a 4-13-85 memo 10 from Mr. Seese to the file. It recounts the warning 11 session and a discussion between you, Seese and DeWald.
. 12 As part of that discussion, under Paragraph 6, you
J 13 make the reference -- there is a reference to you not 14 being on overtime.
15 A Uh-huh.
i 16 Q All right. Now, does this memo document the meeting 17 that you described in which you, essentially, asked --
18 you asked Mr. DeWald and Mr. Seese if you co'11dn't start 19 over on a clean slate?
20 A Well, it wasn't in those words.
21 I just -- I just tried to explain to them that I 22 know we had differences in the past but I wanted to try 23 to do better.
24 I told them I wanted to try to not -- I didn't want
- 25 them to think I was trying to cause trouble in the (m%-]
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1 office. I said I just want to do my work and I asked 2 them for suggestions, if there is anything that I could 3 do to better myself.
4 Q Right. Does this memo that I have shown you document 5 the meeting that you are describing?
6 A Yes.
7 Q That meeting happened the 13th of -- the 12th of April, 8 1985; correct?
9 Does that memo refresh your recollection as to the 10 date of the meeting?
11 A Well, the meeting was the day after -- wait.
12 Q The memo is the day after, it appears.
O 13 A Well, it was the day after I had been caught going --
14 leaving early, supposedly.
15 Q All right, sir. And all of this happened only ten days 16 to two weeks after the 24 Comstock inspectors, including 17 yourself, had been to the NRC?
18 That was the 29th of March, 1985.
19 A Yes.
20 0 All right. And after your meeting with DeWald and 21 Seese, their altitudes appeared to change is your 22 testimony?
23 A Yes, they did.
24 MR. GUILD: That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.
25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Mr. Gallo.
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9597 LJ l RECROSS EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. GALLO 3 Q Mr. Martin, returning to the Krone incident, you said an 4 inspector had indicated to you that -- I guess pointing 5 to the newspaper article that was being circulated on 6 site, that you were in a lot of trouble.
7 Am I remembering your testimony correctly?
8 A Yes.
9 0 What did he mean, that you were in a lot of trouble?
10 A He just felt that they had uncovered some kind of gross 11 negligence on my part and felt that I was going to be 12 prosecuted for it.
7_s
(-) 13 Q What negligence are you referring to?
14 A The inflated checklists that was referred to in the 15 newspaper article.
16 Q You mean the reference to the 500 welds on the 17 checklist?
18 A Yes.
19 Q I see. Well, did you believe that you were -- did you 20 accept that advice or believe that statement?
21 Did you agree when you were told that?
22 A Well, no. I just told him that he didn't understand the 23 way it was and I said, "It's just nothing." I said, 24 "It's all ignorance."
25 I didn't go into any specifics, because I could --
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1 I just -- I had -- I think I had heard recent -- I heard 2 about the article from a couple of other people and it-3 was just everything was getting out of hand.
4 JUDGE GROSSMAN: While there is a pause in 5 the questioning, I just will point out that I just got a 6 note that the Commission will be affirming its order at 7 about 2:30 P. M. Illinois time.
8 I assume that's the order staying the issuance of 9- the subpoena. I just want to have that on the record.
10 We will just continue with what is going on here.
11 MR. GALLO: May I have a moment, please?
12 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Sure.
13 BY MR. GALLO:
14 Q Do you recall your testimony in answer to one of Mr.
15 Guild's questions that several of the craf t supervisors 16 thought that you were too picky in your inspections and
! 17 brought that matter to your management?
18 Do you recall that testimony?
19 A Yes.
20 Q If you know, what was the outcome of the meetings 21 between your QC management and these craft supervisors l 22 when they were complaining about you being too picky?
23 A Well, at one point in time, during one meeting on the 24 tray being clean, we came to agreement that if the cable 25 tray was partially full of cable, that where they could O
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9599 l)
V 1 pick the cable up and sweep under it and clean the tray, 2 that that's what would be done.
3 But in cases where the tray was full of cable and 4 they were going to pull another one through, that it was 5 not necessary to pick up all the cable to clean out the 6 tray, which I was not requiring in the first place; but 7 that's one thing I had.
8 They were trying to kind of distort the picture I 9 was trying to give them about pulling cable. You know, 10 they are saying, what are you going to do about dust?
11 That's one thing we came to.
12 Also, we came to a decision that when I requested a 13 tray to be clean, that it would be cleaned to the --
14 cleaned completely, which would apply only to partially 15 filled tray, because they were just kind of swishing the 16 dirt around a little bit.
17 They would get in a dark area and they' wouldn't 18 have flashlights and I told them many times to get 19 flashlights, because --
20 0 That would be the craft?
21 A Yes. Because that's the first thing I do, I pull my 22 flashlight out and I look in the tray.
23 You know, you can look down there in dark and see 24 nothing; but when you put your flashlight down there, 25 you see all kinds of crap in there.
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9600 0 1 And they never did get -- I don't think they have 2 flashlights to this day; but, anyway, excuse me for 3 putting that in there.
4 I came to the conclusion that the tray would be --
' if I asked them to clean a portion, it would be cleaned 6 completely and not just things that they felt were going-7 to be detrimental to the actual physical damage to the 8 cable.
9 The procedure did not address this and I was trying 10 to point that out to them, that the procedure 11 specifically called for visible debris, not debris that f_ 12 is going to damage anything; and that's what I was --
'( 13 the agreement we came to.
14 Q Did you receive support of your QC management in these 15 meetings with craft supervisors?
16 A I received -- it was kind of a -- we got a new 17 supervisor and he was defending the situation 18 adequately.
19 Q You mean your. situation?
20 A Yes. I will just -- I will have to answer yes, he did 21 defend my position.
22 O Who was the Supervisor?
23 A Harry Revels.
24 Q Was Mr. DeWald at these meetings?
25 A No. This was on night shift.
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- O
[ 1 Q All right. On the question of --
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Excuse me. I am not sure we 3 ' completed the answer.
4 Were those the only matters that were discussed in 5 these series of meetings --
6 THE WITNESS: No.
7 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -- the ones you just 8 mentioned now?
9 THE WITNESS: No.
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I thought the question had i
11 been asked about three or four questions ago what the 12 matters were and I think you didn't complete the answer.
4
.(:) 13 What other matters were discussed at these i
14 meetings?
15 THE WITNESS: Well, at times - .I think one
~
16 time I was requesting for more assistance on a pull and I think I held up the craft for some time and they had 17 18 complained about that.
19 We had a little meeting about that, which the craft
- :20 was not really physically present. It was just the j 21 Supervisors got together and then the Supervisor met
!- 22 with me and we talked about it.
1 23 There was --
. 24 BY MR. GALLO:
25 0 Were you satisfied with the resolution of that r
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1 particular meeting?
2 A I was satisfied with the fact that we certainly got our 3 point through to them but dissatisfied with the fact 4 that it seemed like construction was having a problem 5 getting the work done and they were just trying to point 6 the finger any way they could and they would always try 7 to accuse us of holding them up.
8 So it just seemed like they got away with it every 9 time and it was -- that was a problem.
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Did QC management support 11 you in that instance?
12 THE WITNESS: Yes.
13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Were there any other 14 instances that you can think of now?
. 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. I wrote up one cable for 16 a bend radius violation and -- well, it was kind of a 17 funny situation.
18 I witnessed the bend radius violation. I notified 1
19 the craft and I said, "We have got a bend radius 20 violation."
21 And I didn't have a hold tag with me at the time 22 and so the craft said they were done and they left the 23 area.
24 So I left myself to get a hold tag; and when I came
, 25 back, the cable had been re-trained and the cable radius Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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9603 O) q 1 violation was, I guess, repaired in their eyes.
2 So at that point, instead of issuing an Inspection 3 Correction Report, which is in house, I issued a 4 Nonconformance Report for a procedural violation and 5 hung the hold tag.
6 It came back that the craft said that since they 7 were not completed with it and I didn't have a hold tag 8 on it, they could work it, work the cable.
9 And we kind of had a meeting on that, because they 10 wanted to say that I was wrong in writing a 11 Nonconformance Report. Since the hold tag wasn't there,
- 12 they could adjust the cable any way they felt was
'~
13 neces sa ry.
14 But beyond that, it was brought to their attention 15 that they are not allowed to touch a safety-related 16 cable without a QC witness.
17 So the judgment finally ruled in my favor that the 18 NCR was valid.
19 BY MR. GALLO:
20 Q In answer to a question of Mr. Berry, do you recall he 21 asked you some questions about going to Quality First 22 and the missing welder stamps on certain welds?
23 Do you recall that testimony?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q Do you know whether or not an NCR was issued by Comstock O
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1 to cover this particular problem after your return from 2 Quality First?
3 A There was -- there was nothing ever said to me about any 4 NCR.
5 Q So you are not aware of whether or not one was issued?
6 A No, I am not.
7 Q All right.
8 MR. GUILD: Was there one issued, Counsel?
9 Perhaps, if there is one issued, we could ask, Mr.
10 Chairman, that Applicant make it available to the party.
11 MR. GALLO: I am just going to ignore that, 12 your Honor.
O 13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: No, we can't ignore it. If 14 you have it, fine.
15 MR. GALLO: I am changing the line of 16 questioning.
17 MR. GUILD: It's not fair for counsel to 18 throw a fact on the record and then --
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN: We will ask: If there is an 20 NCR on that, please make it available. It's not part of 21 the questioning now but as part of informal discovery.
22 MR. GALLO: Well, first of all, it is my 23 understanding that there is such an NCR.
24 Secondly, it is also my understanding that it was 25 highly likely to have been turned over; and I think the i
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U 1 tactics used by Intervenors, innuendo, to create the 2 feeling that there are continuing documents that he 3 hasn't received is improper.
4 The first thing he should do is check the inventory 5 of the 58,000 documents to see whether he has got it.
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Mr. Gallo, it's not as 7 though there haven't been documents that haven't been 8 produced earlier during discovery.
9 N ow , if you know that you have given it to counsel, 10 then state it for the record.
11 If you don't know, go and check; and I didn't ask
,_ 12 that you bring anything here on the record. You can e
# produce it informally and that would be the end of it, 13-14 unless it's going to be used for something that is 15 relevant.
16 We are not creating an issue here. We are just 17 trying to resolve one, if there is one.
18 MR. GALLO: I didn't know there was one.
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, we still don't know if 20 there is one; and maybe there isn't.
l 21 MR. GUILD: Mr. Chairman, I move that 22 Applicant be required to produce this NCR.
23 JUDGE GROSSMAN: We have already directed 24 him, so there is no need to --
f- 25 MR. GUILD: I hear no affirmative record, and
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l it sounds to me on the record as though they will be 2 recalcitrant, they will forget the matter and it will 3 never be produced.
4 I think it's improper for counsel to suppose a 5 fact, to suppose a fact and then when inquired of by 6 another party, to pretend that they can simply sit mute 7 and pretend the fact has never been raised.
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. I understand that.
9 You are objecting to Mr. Gallo making remarks or 10 including it in questioning, implications that are not 11 evidentiary facts.
12 We have already made our position plain on that to 13 Mr. Gallo.
14 Now we have directed him to do something and I
! 15 assume that he is going to do it.
16 So I don't think there is any need for any further 17 discussion.
18 BY MR. GALLO:
19 0 I show you Intervenors' 85, which is your weld symbol; I
20 correct?
21 A Yes.
22 O Your welder's stamp -- I mean your inspection weld 23 symbol; right?
24 A Yes.
! 25 Q I have here two notebooks, two of the notebooks from l
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U) 1 Applicant's Exhibit, I believe it is, 103.
2 Because of the difficulty in paging through to find 3 the page, I will be glad to show it to everyone.
4 It's Book VI and it's the 21st page by my count; 5 but if you look at the --
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Is there a date on it?
7 MR. GALLO: Not on the page in question.
8 I am going to ask the witness whether this --
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN: The two pages before that 10 there is a date of 22 June 82.
11 MR. GALLO: All right.
12 BY MR. GALLO:
O 13 Q You see those symbols on that page, Mr. Martin.
14 A Which symbols are those?
15 Q Well, these.
16 (Indicating.)
17 A Yes, okay.
18 Q What appears to be what I called or referred to in an 19 early question as squiggles?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Are those intended to be representative of your welder's 22 stamp?
23 A Yes, it is.
24 Q Now, is that also true of what appear to be the same 25 sort of markings on Page 6 of Book VII, dated April 13, O
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i O 1 1983?
2 A Yes, they are.
3 MR. GALLO: Thank you.
> 4 Those are all the questions I have.
5 MR. BERRY:' No questions.
I 6 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Is there any Re-redirect on
- 7 what Mr. Gallo has just brought out?
i 8 MR. GUILD: One moment, Mr. Chairman.
} 9 No questions, Mr. Chairman.
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, then the witness is i
11 excused.
12 Thank you very much, Mr. Martin --
0 13 THE WITNESS: Okay.
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -- for testifying for us.
15 We do want to caution you not to discuss your 16 testimony with anyone, except for the fact that you are i
17 not terminated -- not terminated but that you haven't
- 18 quit the organization in order to testify and that.the 19 agreement-is that when you take your leave, you are !
l 20 still part of the organization if you are testifying, so
- 21 that's the only exception.
22 But, otherwise, you really shouldn't discuss your i 23 testimony with anyone.
l 24 Thank you.
25 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
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9609 g
N~)
1 MR. GUILD: Mr. Chairman, could we take about 2 a ten-minute recess and get the next witness lined up?
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Sure. Okay, fine.
4 (WHEREUPON, a recess was had, after which 5 the hearing was resumed as follows:)
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN: We are back on the record.
7 I believe we prematurely excused Mr. Martin, 8 because, as he was leaving, he indicated that he had 9 some concern that while he was testifying, Mr. Simile 10 was in and out of the room here and he felt uneasy 11 testifying in Mr. Simile's presence, Mr. Simile being 12 part of the supervisory staff of QC.
7_
~
13 Am I stating it correctly, Mr. Martin?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes. I was just a little 15 uneasy about it.
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. Now, the question is 17 whether you changed your testimony because of Mr.
18 Simile's presence?
19 THE WITNESS: No.
20 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. So we have clarified 21 that matter.
22 Unless you have some questions to put to Mr.
23 Martin, we can finally excuse him and then we will 24 discuss this matter without Mr. Martin being present.
25 There being no further questions, Mr. Martin, you O
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9610 1 are finally excused.
'2 MR. GALLO: I do have one point.
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I am sorry.
4 MR. GALLO: I am going to request and move 5 that this portion of the transcript, as well as any 6 discussion on this subject after Mr. Martin leaves, be 7 made in camera.
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Why?
9 MR. GALLO: So that Mr. Martin's uneasiness 10 won't persist in the future, because Mr. Simile or some 11 other person could read this portion of the transcript 12 and ascertain his state of mind with respect to Mr.
13 Simile's presence in this room.
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. So then you will, 15 therefore, certainly not disclose any of this to Mr.
16 Simile or other people.
17 MR. GALLO: As I understand, the only people 18 in here are NRC people and counsel of Com Ed.
19 MR. GUILD: Mr. Chairman, frankly, maybe 1 am 20 just being dense on this matter.
21 I can't for the life of me understand what the 22 point is of this. If he is uneasy, he is going to be 23 uneasy now, tomorrow, the next day.
24 What on earth difference does it make whether his 25 sworn testimony to that fact is kept in camera?
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? ~1 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Excuse me, Mr. Martin.
2 Did you have a statement?
3 THE WITNESS: I just -- my uneasiness was 4 just to the point that not that Mr. Simile is a threat.
5 I just didn't want or would not like to have certain 6 things discussed about the trial.
a
, 7 I don't feel it's a threat. I just felt that 8 during their meetings or whatever, they just might make
\~
g 9 mention of this and that; and at that point it was just 10 something that I realized and I felt uneasy about.
t c
11 I didn't feel threatened and I don't. It 212 definitely would not affect any of my testimony.
13 It's just something I felt was just a little bit 14 uncouth or whatever. I just don't want my testimony
'15 being discussed --
16 MR. GALLO: Mr. Martin, do you --
17 THE WITNESS: -- by the people.
18 MR. GALLO: Do you understand the transcript s
19 of this proceedin. is a public record, that anybody can 20 get it and read it if they see fit and wants to do that?
21 Do you understand that, including the last five minutes, 22 they could get the transcript and read it if they wanted
- f. 23 to?
4 24 Now, we can foreclose that possibility in terms of 425 limiting the distribution of the information to the Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. _
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V 1 Board and counsel that are in this room by turning the 2 last five minutes since we have been talking about this 3 subject into what we call in camera, so that the
, 4 distribution would be limited. Comstock-individuals 5 would not see it. Edison individuals would not see it.
/
6 Would you prefer to have this last five-minute
- 7 discussion treated on that basis?
8 THE WITNESS: No.
9 MR. GALLO: All right.
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay, fine. You are 11 excused, Mr. Martin. We don't need you further.
12 THE WITNESS: Okay.
- (). 13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: And then we will discuss i
14 this.
15 THE WITNESS: I am sorry for the --
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Thank you for testifying.
17 THE WITNESS: Yes.
i 18 (Witness excused.)
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Now that this topic has been 20 raised and the parties wish to discuss it on the record, 21 we will certainly accommodate that.
! 22 I will say that I had become aware of the fact that 23 Mr. Simile has been present during examinations of QC 24 :.- nectors and has sat very prominently in the first row 25 of the audience directly behind counsel table.
O.
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9613 C 1 It has occurred to me that that could be an 2 inhibiting factor to the inspectors freely discussing --
3 freely answering the questions here; and, in fact, that 4 actually was an element in questions that Mr. Berry had 5 to, I believe, Mr. Holley in comparing Mr. Puckett with 6 Mr. Simile.
4 7 The Board has informally discussed this problem, 8 and I intended to raise that'if I saw Mr. Simile 9 omnipresent in the courtroom, as his appearance might 1 10 seem to QC Inspectors working under him.
11 I didn't notice him in here with Mr. Martin 12 testifying, so I didn't raise that matter; and I did,
~ '
13 'after Mr. Martin mentioned this, discuss it informally-14 with counsel just a few minutes ago, hoping that we 15 could ameliorate this problem without having to go on 16~ the record and discuss it.
17 But now that we are discussing it, let me say that 18 I understand there are two competing factors here.
19 One is the ability of counsel for Applicant to 20 remain fully informed on the implications of testimony
-21 relating to the area under Mr. Simile's supervision and 22 that he is an assistance to counsel.
23 On the other hand, we have the problem of Mr.
24 Simile's presence inhibiting the inspectors from freely 25 answering the questions.
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%sa 1 I would hope that counsel for Applicants could find 2 some way of using Mr. Simile's assistance without having 3 him present in the hearing room; but if they can't, I 4 don't know that we would -- the Board would have to 5 caucus on this; but I am not inclined at this point to 6 excuse him from the courtroom or from the hearing room; 7 but we can discuss that.
8 I don't know if the Board members have any other 9 feeling about it, but I would hope that maybe counsel 10 for Applicant could think about it for a few minutes and 11 come up with some solution to the problem.
, . . 12 (There followed a discussion outside the
~
13 record.)
14 MR. MILLER: Your Honor, we certainly want 15 the testimony to be given freely and without any 16 inhibition, frank and full disclosure on what the facts 17 are.
18 It is also clear that the details of some of the 19 procedures, the interpretation of the welding code and 20 so on, the technical matters that we have gone into 21 particularly with the QC Inspectors, frankly, is beyond 22 my comprehension and certainly my background.
23 I think that -- I don't know how witnesses are 24 going to react. Mr. Martin, obviously, spontaneously
<- 25 came forward, unfortunately, at the end of his v
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V 1 testimony, to indicate that was the case, because it 2 really would have been absolutely no problem to excuse 3 Mr. Simile, who was really here in anticipation of Mr.
4 Perryman's testimony, where I did, in fact, ask him to 5 come and assist me in preparing the Cross Examination 6 for Mr. Perryman.
7 So Mr. Simile's presence here was -- with respect l- 8 to Mr. Martin was -- truly inadvertent and unfortunate.
9 If the Board were to ask each witness what their 10 feelings were about this, about having Mr. Simile 11 present -- and, obviously, with him absent from the 12 hearing room -- prior to examination, then, perhaps, we O 13 can make an assessment.
14 I can accommodate any witness's inhibitions with 15 respect to Mr. Simile by, in fact, excluding him from
< 16 the hearing room, asking him to station himself in the 17 adjacent room and consulting with him at the conclusion 18 of Cross Examination and, perhaps, from time to time --
19 I am sorry.-- at the conclusion of Direct Examination 20 and, perhaps, from time to time during my Cross 21 Examination as to the meaning of certain procedures or 22 terms that the witness may use.
23 That's going to be a bit cumbersome and I hate to 24 do it if the witness -- if it was a, "No, never mind,"
25 to the witness.
-N /
i
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O 1 But I will ~do it any way that seems right and 2 proper to the Board, because we have three witnesses who 3 are currently employed not by Comstock but by --
4 JUDGE GROSSMAN: The new organization.
5 MR. MILLER: -- the successor to BESTCO.
6 So while they are, in fact, supervised by Mr.
7 Simile and others who are Comstock employees, it's not 8 clear, at least on the record, what the power of those 9 individuals really is over these persons with respect to 10 their career advancement or pay status or whatever.
11 I don't propose to go into that, because it seems 12 to me to be a digression.
13 So we only have three of them left, and I will.
14 abide by the Board's ruling on this.
15 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, it sounds reasonable 16 for me to ask the witness, each witness that comes who 17 is a QC Inspector, whether he would feel freer 18 testifying without Mr. Simile being present to hear his 19 testimony.
20 If they say that they would, then you can make the 21 other arrangements; but if they say it doesn't matter to 22 them, then he can sit tru3 be present.
23 I would hope you don't seat him in the first row.
24 MR. MILLER: Well, it's only so I can have gg 25 easy access to him; but if it will be better if we put V
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1 him out of the line of sight and seat him behind the 2 pillar, that's okay.
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I think so, I think so and 4 that's a minor detail; but let's try and accommodate the 5 process as best we can.
6 MR. GUILD: Mr. Chairman, I would just state 7 that I don't think there is a perfect solution.
8 Obviously, these people have to go back and work 9 with Tony Similie. What they say about management on 10 the stand, I suspect, they will have in mind as 11 something that may be later known and, perhaps, a factor 12 in some future management dealing toward them.
(# )
13 I don't think-anything we can say or do here will 14 cure that possibility perfectly. These people are 15 employees of an organization and they are giving 16 testimony that, by its very nature, is controversial and 17 may be seen as weighing in the balance about their 18 futures. I think that is inevitable.
! 19 It just seems to me asking the witness directly, 20 with Mr. Simile present or even without him present --
21 JUDGE GROSSMAN: No. It will be without Mr.
22 Simile present.
23 MR. GUILD: Even so, to press an opinion that 24 they are more comfortable without their manager present, 25 it's a loaded quertion. What do you say? "I distrust fS
(_/
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9618 (J3 l my manager and I want him out of the room."
2 I appreciate the efforts of the Board to try to 3 cure this problem, but it seems to me his presence 4 itself is the troublesome fact, and the opinion of a 5 witness on the effect of that fact is really not going 6 to be dispositive.
7 I think Mr. Martin is unusual because of his, 8 perhaps, candor and willingness to directly state the 9 matter. I don't think he is unique in thinking about 10 the' problem or being affected by it. S o --
11 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well --
I
, . , 12 MR. MILLER: Your Honor, if that truly is a 13 problem for the witness, it seems to me that that is a 14 perfect opportunity for the application of the in-camera-15 process, because the most important thing, really, is 16 that this Board receive the full testimony of these 17 witnesses.
18 Now, we have had brief in-camera sessions before; 19 but if there is some suggestion on the part of 20 Intervenors' counsel or the witness himself that this 21 is, in fact, a concern, that Comstock management 22 individuals will learn about this, we can take steps to 23 protect that, it seems to me.
24 MR. GUILD: And that was the point of --
25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I don't see that that is in O
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I any way a solution to this problem, because before we 2 make this in camera, so that no one, including Mr.
3 Simile, would get a copy of it, we could easily just ask 4- Mr. Simile not to be present.
- -5 So that's really a more drastic step than we have 6 to take.
7 Mr. Guild is stating his position for the record to 8 support Mr. Simile not being here altogether, whatever, l
9 without.having to pose that question to the witness.
i 10 If you agree to that, Mr. Miller, it would resolve *
, 11 .the problem; but I assume you don't agree to that and so
! 12 I think we will go with the position that we have 3-O 13 stated.
^
14 MR. MILLER: Your Honor, I want the Board to j 15 be an :ne parties to be clear: As it stands right now, 1
i 16 of course, there is no inhibition on our use of the 2
l 17 transcript; and I can't say that it's been widely.
- 18 disseminated within Commonwealth Edison or Comstock but ,
19 I know that portions of it have been used, again, for
-20 our use in creating our rebuttal case and for other 21 purposes as well.
22 If the witnesses -- maybe the witnesses are 23 unaware, as Mr. Martin apparently was --
] 24 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I think that they are pretty j- 25 much unaware of the fact that it's available, but there i
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(-
x_/
1 is also the situation in which someone would have to go 2 and locate these transcripts and reproduce it and 3 circulate it.
4 So to a certain extent, even though the transcripts 5 are available, they won't necessarily be disseminated 6 publicly.
7 So we are exploring areas that aren't necessary 8 right now. The only question before us now is what we 9 do with regard to Mr. Simile.
10 Now, again, what I said is that if counsel for 11 Applicant would agree to exclude him voluntarily,
.12 without having the question asked, that would resolve 73
( l 13 the matter.
14 If you wish to continue with your suggestion that 15 we ask the witness and then you will do it accordingly, 16 that is a different resolution, which Intervenors are 17 not happy with and there are some problems with it; but, 18 nevertheless, I think we would go that route.
19 But, of course, there will always be that argument l'
20 that Intervenors can make with regard to the freedom i
21 with which the witnesses have answered.
l 22 So, you know, those are the choices before us.
l 23 MR. MILLER: May I have a minute?
24 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Certainly.
l 25 Another suggestion made by Judge Callihan now is x-7 I
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9621 0 1 that, perhaps, you could find someone else who is versed 2 in the technical areas, who is not with Comstock but 3 with CECO or maybe S & L, who could assist you; but 4 that's, you know, a suggestion that you may wish to 5 explore voluntarily.
6 MR. MILLER: Well, your Honor, I will tell 7 you: It's apparent that Mr. Perryman is going to get 8 started.
9 Why don't I ask Mr. Simile to exclude himself from 10 the hearing room for this afternoon, because this is 11 only going to be direct testimony. I will take good
, 12 notes.
~' 13 I take it there is no inhibition on my discussing 14 the witness's testimony with my expert?
15 JUDGE GROSSMAN: No.
16 MR. MILLER: I will take Judge Callihan's 17 suggestion to heart and see if there is some other 18 individual that perhaps I can line up.
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Certainly; and we would 20 appreciate it if counsel can agree on this.
21 I understand that would mean further concessions by 22 you, Mr. Miller, and we would appreciate it if that is 23 how you would do it; but if not, then we will come back 24 to our original position.
.g 25 Fine. So why don't we call Mr. Perryman in? I U
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-1 think.comeone should mention this to Mr. Simile.
2 MR. MILLER: Yes, we will.
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Again, you will have the
'4 weekend to think about this. We are not on tomorrow.
5 Mr. Guild, would you call your next witness, 6 please?
7 MR. GUILD: Yes, sir, Mr. Chairman.
8 At this time we would call Larry Perryman to 9 testify, please.
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Mr. Perryman, would you 11 stand please, raise your right hand?
12 (The witness was thereupon duly sworn.)-
O. 13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Please . be seated.
14 MR. GUILD: Good afternoon, Mr. Perryman.
15 My name is Bob Guild, for the record. I represent 16 the Intervenors. I work for BPI in Chicago.
f 17 These are the Licensing Board Judges. At the 18 middle table are the lawyers for Commonwealth Edison 19 Company. At the far table are the lawyers and Staff of l.
20 the NRC.
21 LAWRENCE A. PERRYMAN i 22 called as a witness by the Intervenors herein, having been 23 first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
+ 24 DIRECT EXAMINATION l
25 BY MR. GUILD
- t i
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9623 O 1 Q Could I ask you, sir, to state your full name and your 2 work address for the recorG, please?
3 A My name is Lawrence A. Perryman. I work-at Braidwood 4 Nuclear Power Plant.
5 Q All right, sir. You work under the supervision of the 6 L. K. Comstock Company in the Quality Control 7 Department?
8 A I do.
9 Q All right sir. In what capacity?
10 A As a Lead Welding Inspector.
11 Q Are you a Level II welding inspect?
12 A Yes, I am.
13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Mr. Perryman, by the way, 14 could you hook that microphone around your neck, please, 15 with the loop?
16 Thank you.
17 BY MR. GUILD:
18 Q Now, I understand your direct employer has changed a 19 couple of times through the different job shops, BESTCO 20 .in July of 1985 and thereafter, more recently, 21 Multicraft Inspection Services; is that correct?
, 22 A Installation Services, yes.
23 Q Installation Services, all right, sir.
24 But during the entire period of time, you have 25 worked under the supervision of the L. K. Comstock QC
(/
~
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(
1 Department?
T 2 A That's correct.
3 0 When did you join Comstock's QC Department, Mr.
4 Perryman?
5 A Novembe r 28, 1983.
6 Q Prior to your work with Comstock, can you briefly list 7 your various work?
8 Start with your education and then different jobs 9 you have held, please.
3 10 A I have got a high school equivalency diploma.
11 I have been trained in welding. I was a welder, 12 fitter, boilermaker, foreman for boilermakers, Assistant
\~ 13 Manager and Manager of quality control under 14 boilermakers before I came to Braidwood.
15 0 Okay. Where were you employed as a welder, fitter and 16 foreman?
17 A I have been a welder at Blue M Electric.
18 Q Will you state that name a gain?
19 A Blue M, Lemont Ship Building, Universal, Lockport, which 20 is the boilermakers.
- 21 Q What was the nature of the various processes you worked 22 in on those jobs?
i i 23 A Well, the main important ones would be the boilermakers, 24 which was on Section 8, ASME.
, 25 Q ASME Code?
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9625 l A Yes.
2 Q What type of work were you doing, what were you making?
3 A Pressure vessels.
4 Q For what purpose?
5 A Refineries, those tall towers in refineries.
6 Q During the time you served as Assistant Manager and 7 Manager of quality control, what sort of work were you 8 doing?
9 A It was the same thing. It was for the boilermakers.
10 Q Had you worked in a nuclear facility prior to coming to 11 Braidwood?
12 A .No, sir.
O 13 Q Had you performed quality control inspection work prior 14 to your Braidwood job?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q In which positions?
17 A At the boilermaker and quality control of boilermakers.
18 Q Did you do weld inspection to the ASME Code then?
19 A Yes, I did.
20 Q. Did you receive any certifications as a Quality Control 21 Inspector?
22 A By then I had mag particle, Level II mag particle. I 1
23 was doing radiography, PT.
l
- 24 Q What code were you certified to?
25 A Section 8, ASME.
i O
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9626 k
l Q Does the ASME Code provide for the certifications of 2 Quality Control Inspectors?
3 A No. That would be --
~
4 Q The ANSI code?
5 A The ANSI code.
6 Q It's the same ANSI code that you are certified to now?
7 A Yes.
8 Q N45.2.6? I may not be quoting that correctly but it was 9 the ANSI code?
10 A It's the ANSI code.
11 Q All right. Now, when you came on at Comstock in
=12 November of '83, who was your immediate supervisor?
O 13 A I am trying to think.
14 Back then I believe it was Bruce Brown.
15 Q Mr. Brown was a lead at the time?
16 A No. He was Welding Supervisor at the time.
17 Q He was over the welding, the welding inspectors?
-18 A Yes.
19 Q You obtained certifications under the Comstock program 20 at Braidwood as a Level II Inspector?
21 A Yes, I did.
22 O And I gather that your work is primarily in the welding 23 area?
24 A Yes, it is.
25 Q But you have other certifications as well, have you not?
O Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
. ._. . . - . . - . . ~ - - -.. . . - . - - . ...-. -
.. 9627 i .
!. 1 A Yes, I do.
i 2 Can you list the other certs that you have got?
Q 1
l 3 A CEA,-which is concrete expansion anchors, cable pulling, 1
4 terminations.
5 I believe that's it.
- 6 Q What portion of your work day to day is in the welding
!' 7 L area, would you guess?
8 8 A About 99 percent of it, j 9 Q So you technically are certified in the other areas but.
10 your primary work -- almost your exclusive work -- is in
!. 11 the welding inspection area?
i j 12 A Yes, it is.
[^).
13 Q Now, can you tell me over the course of time that you
! 14 have worked at Comstock how your chain of command'has I 15 changed?
t Who was above
~
l 16 You were under Bruce Drown first.
i l 17 him at the time?
j 18 A Half of them I can't even remember.
i .
19 Mainly there was Larry Seese, Irv DeWald. Bruce I.
! 20 Brown was one. I believe Rick Saklak took it over for a i
21 while.
I 22 0 The welding area?
- 23 A Yes, the welding area.
i
- 24 Q All right.
- j. p v
25 A And then we had Worley Puckett, we had -- Kinky.
! Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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9628 1 I can't remember his name. I can't remember his 2 name right now.
3 Q All right, sir. When did you become a Lead Inspector?
4 A I would say about six months ago, I believe.
5 0 And prior to becoming a lead, for whom did you work 6 directly?
7 A Well, I would have been lead then to Don Parrish.
8 Q What inspectors work for you, for you now, Mr. Perryman?
9 A I have got John Miner, Bob Shields, Paul Shultz and 10 right now that's it.
11 Q What specific work are you and your crew performing?
12 A Generally, in-process welding and configurations on the O 13 reactor.
14 Q Unit 1 or Unit 2?
15 A Unit 1.
16 Q Is the in process current installation work?
17 A Yes, it is.
18 0 All right. Mr. Perryman, I want to direct your 19 attention back to a time over a year ago in the spring 20 of 1985, March in particular.
21 Were you aware of an incident involving Mr. Snyder, 22 Calibrations Inspector, and Mr. Rick Saklak, the 23 Supervisor?
24 A Yes, I was.
- 25 0 How did that incident come to your attention?
! Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
- Geneva, 111inois 60134 l
(312) 232-0262
9629 O 1 A Well, some men had gone over to the NRC earlier in the 2 morning; and the word had come around pretty quick that 3 Saklak had jumped all over Rick, Rich.
4 And we felt at that time that nothing would come r 5 out of it, so we felt we had to do something else.
6 Q When you say, "nothing would come of it," no reaction 7 from management; is that your reference?
j 8 A That's what I am saying.
9 Q No action against Mr. Saklak?
10 A Correct.
11 Q All right. Now, I take it from your testimony that you 12 were not among the earlier group that had gone over in O 13 the morning?
14 A No, I was not.
15 Q But you went, did you not, with the group later at noon?
16 A Yes. There was about 23 or 26 of us, something like 17 that.
18 Q All right, sir. Now, why did you go over to the NRC at 19 noontime, Mr. Perryman?
20 A The main thing was to get a point across.
21 Q What point and to whom?
22 A Well, the point was to let Ceco know that we weren't 23 going to allow Comstock just to push it under the table 24 and slap him on the lands and say okay.
25 0 Slap Mr. Saklak on the hands?
O Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9630 1 A Yes, Mr. Saklak.
2 O Now, the NRC record reflects the NRC Resident Inspectors 3 were there and a group of QC Inspectors from Comstock, 4 the 24 or 26, each made statements in turn and a record 5 of some sort was made summarizing their statements?
6 A Some did, yeah.
7 0 Not all made statements, though?
8 A Right.
9 0 Subsequently, the record reflects the NRC prepared a 10 memorandum summarizing those statements. It's a 11 document dated April 5,1985, and it's been marked and 12 received into evidence.
13 It contains names of inspectors; and the version 14 that I am showing you, Mr. Perryman, has brackets around 15 the names; and that's because in the public version of 16 this document, those names have been blacked out to 17 protect the confidentiallity of those people.
18 The document that I am showing you is an in-camera 19 exhibit and it contains the names.
20 Did you ever see a version of this document that 21 had the names in it?
22 Was one sent to you?
23 A I received one. I believe it had my name on it.
24 0 All right, sir. I direct your attention to two places.
25 First, the second numbered page of the document has Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9631 1 a paragraph. The paragraph begins on the page before 2 and states -- well, the beginning of the first page 3 refers to a meeting at approximately 10:00 A. M.
4 The bottom of the page refers to "allegers 5 indicated that they represented 50 to 70 Comstock 6 Quality Control Inspectors."
7 The following para then says, "The allegers were,"
8 and it lists names. Your name appears among them. All 9 right, sir?
10 Now, I took that list of names to reflect the group 11 that went over early in the morning.
12 I understand your testimony now was to the effect i
13 that you did not go with that first group.
14 A No, sir.
15 0 All right.
16 The names that are shown here -- were these also 17 individuals that went along with you when you went over 18 at the lunch hour?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q Now, on Page --
21 MR. MILLER: Bob, which memo?
22 I'm sorry.
23 MR. GUILD: It's 42-A. It's the April 5th 24 memo.
25 MR. MILLER: I'm sorry.
Sonntaa Reportina Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
l i
9632 O MR. GUILD: (Indicating.)
1 2 Did you find it, Mike?
3 MR. MILLER: Yes. Go ahead.
4 BY MR. GUILD:
5 Q Page 4 of the memo, Mr. Perryman, has a name in the 6 lef t-hand column that says " Larry Greenman." Now, I 3
7 know that's not your name, but I suspect that perhaps 8 it's a reference to you nonetheless.
9 Look at the statement that's attributed to the 10 person by that name and see if you can tell me whether i
11 that appears to be a reference to a statement that you l
,s -
12 made at that meeting.
4 13 A Yes, it is.
' 14 Q And does that in substance summarize what you said at
- 15 the meeting?
, 16 A Yes, it does, j 17 Q N ow , this instance with Mr. Saklak and Mr. Snyder -- was j
18 it the first instance that had come to your attention of
} 19 Mr. Saklak -- well, let me -- let me start over again, j 20 What was your understanding of the interaction i
4 21 between Snyder and Saklak that preceded your going to 1
22 the NRC?
23 I know you weren't a witness to it, but what did 1
24 you understand happened?
{} 25 A It's been a while, but all I remember is that he had Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
l Geneva, Illinois 60134 l (312) 232-0262
9633 1
() 1 somehow threatened Rich Snyder. I don't remember what i
2 he had said to him or anything else at the time.
3 Q All right.
4 Saklak had threatened Snyder --
5 A Somehow.
6 Q -- was your understanding, all right.
, 7 Have you ever heard of a statement attributed to 8 Mr. Saklak, supposedly directed to Mr. Snyder in this 9 encounter: "If beating were legal, you'd be dead"?
10 A I heard that, but I can't swear that was what was said.
11 0 You weren't a witness to the incident?
12 A No, I was not.
13 Q Did you hear of that statement being attributed to Mr.
14 Saklak in that incident?
15 A Yes, I had.
16 Q Now, with that in mind, had any previous encounters 17 between Saklak and Quality Control Inspectors, in which 18 Mr. Saklak had been harassing or intimidating or abusive I
19 -- had any previous incidents ever come to your 20 attention before the Snyder incident that precipitated 21 your visit to the NRC?
22 A I don't remember if they were prior to or -- yeah, they 23 had to be prior to.
24 There was one with a Mike Mustered, and there was 25 one with John Seeders.
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f Geneva, Illinois 60134 4
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I 9634 O
1 Q All right.
2 What did you understand happened between Saklak and 3 Mustered?
4 A It was something -- he was trying to get him to sign 5 something off that he didn't feel was ready to be signed 6 off.
7 0 "He," Saklak, was trying to get Mustered to sign 8 something off?
, 9 A Yes.
10 Q All right.
- 11 Do you know what sort of work Mr. Mustered was 12 performing at the time?
13 A It had to be welding, I believe, welding or configs.
1 14 0 Welding or configuration inspection?
15 A Yes.
16 0 And can you recall how you learned of the incident 17 between Mustered and Saklak?
18 A He told me -- Mustered did.
l 19 0 All right.
, 20 John Seeders -- what did you understand was the
- 21 nature of the encounter between Saklak and Seeders?
22 A It was something to do with receipt inspection. I guess 23 he didn't feel it was getting done or something along
, 24 that order.
l l
l
{} 25 I really don't know exactly what it was about.
l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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9635 n
N/
1 Q Something that Mr. Seeders wasn' t getting done?
2 A Apparently, yes.
3 0 All right.
4 And that there was an altercation or an instance 5 where Saklak was abusive towards Seeders as a result?
6 A That's what I heard.
7 0 And what was the source of your understanding about the l
8 Seeders and Saklak incident?
9 A Just that Seeders was moved to Engineering.
10 0 Well, that's what happened indeed, but how did you learn 11 about the encounter between Saklak and Seeders?
12 A It just went be through the QC group.
13 0 Was it a common subject of discussion among the 14 inspectors?
15 A Yeah, it was at the time.
16 0 All right.
17 Do you recall learning of a letter that Seeders 18 sent to DeWald and the NRC and others?
19 A No, I don't.
Do you recall ever discussing the matter with John 20 0 21 Seeders?
22 A I've talked to John Seeders about how he was in 23 Engineering and that, but why I didn't know.
l 24 0 All right.
{} 25 Did you understand that -- you understood that E0nntag_Emporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9636 O Seeders had been transferred to the Engineering 1
2 Department?
3 A Yes, I did.
4 0 Were you aware that Seeders maintained that that 5 transf er was in some f ashion connected with this 6 encounter with Saklak?
7 A Oh, yeah.
8 0 And in what way did you understand it was connected?
9 A Well, one day he's working for Quality Control, and the 10 next day I knew he was working for Engineering.
11 He told me he had a choice to either quit or go to 12 Engineering.
4 O. -
13 Q All right.
14 And did you understand that Mr. Saklak was somehow 15 behind this transfer?
16 A I don't know who was behind the transfer, but I 17 understand that because of the argument between them, 18 evidently, he was transferred.
! 19 0 "He," Seeders, was transferred?
I 20 A John was transferred, yes.
l i 21 Q All right.
22 Now, do you recall an incident between -- involving 23 Mr. Saklak and a QC employee named Joe Hii?
24 A Yes, I do.
25 0 And were -- were you a witness to such an incident?
l
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Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 66T34 (312) 232-0262
9637 O Yes, sir.
1 A s
2 Q And what transpired between Saklak and Joe Hii that you 4 3 observed?
4 A We were down by the vault, and they had some kind of 5 disagreement. I don' t even know -- remember what it was 4
6 about, but it was just strictly verbal abuse.
l 7 There was no punching or anything. It was just 1
8 strictly verbal abuse in front of everybody.
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN: We'll have to take a 10 10-minute recess now. I have a phone call.
t 11 (WHEREUPON, a recess was had, after which 1
- 12 the proceedings were resumed as follows )
13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: We're back on the record.
14 I just got a call from Docketing and Service, in i
i 15 which Mr. Clements read me the operative part of the 16 Commission's three-page order, which directs the Board 17 to designate the portions of the record and to further i
- 18 elaborate on the reasons for believing that it ought to i
19 issue that subpoena, and it gives us until August 7th to 20 do that.
i 21 We prepose -- we won't have the hearing on Monday, 22 and I suggest that we tentatively, at least, arrange to j 23 be here Tuesday afternoon at 2:00 o' clock.
24 I'm not sure how formidable a task that's going to
{} 25 be, so we may have to conclude the session early next Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
i Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
~
9638
) '
1 week. Maybe we'll only be here one day, but we have to .
2 get something to the Commission by August 7th. That's ;
3 Thursday. -
4 Now, as to designating portions of the record, if 5 they' re talking about this monumental transcript and 6 picking out parts that relate to where that matter i might 7 be relevant, I don't know how long that would take.
8 I would suggest that whoever has an interest in it, _
9 though, is certainly free to brief that to the 10 Commission; either parts the designation of the record 11 or the reasons for or against the subpoena.
12 (Laughter.)
13 I would assume it would come under that heading of 14 the OI disclosure, in which the parties are free to 15 brief the matter on whatever evidence the parties have 16 to go on. t 17 MR. GUILD: Mr. Chai rman, I would suppose 18 it's still not too late for perhaps Applicant and the 19 NRC Staff to reconsider their position on whether they 20 want to join Intervenors in a motion for a subpoena.
21 That might perhaps be a matter that the Commission 22 would take into account in derailing what otherwise 23 might be a rather lengthy discursion from the main 24 purpose.
Well, we've heard Mr.
[} 25 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
1 i
T 9639
, xs
\
O*,
1 Guild's ludicrous suggestion now.
4 2 (Laughter.)
3 MR. MILLER: I will just say that I'll 4 consider it.
5' But from past experience, as far as the Commission 6 is concerned, where OI matters are involved, they don't 7 heed applicants any more than they do any other party, i 8 as far as I can tell.
9 But I will consider Mr. Guild's suggestion.
4 10 Mr. Chairman, what is the task that is placed 11 before the Board?
s 12 JUDGE GROSSMAN: To designate the relevant O ,
'13 portions of the record and to further elaborate on the 3
14 reasons for believing that the Board should issue the i
) 15 subpoena.
1 i
16 - I believe -- I'm paraphrasing what was just read to
- s, v . 17 me by Mr. Clements, but I believe that order will be s's\ \i l '_ (\ 18 public and that it should be in your hands -- available I
_ s 19 for you by tomorrow.
I I would expect it to be public.
20 21 MR. MILLER: I was just curious.
l 22 If it's relevant portions of the record, perhaps it l
l 23 only refers to -- maybe only those portions of the l
24 - s
~
record in which the issue of whether the subpoena should 1
25 ' be issued by the Board is what they' re af ter.
Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262 1
9640 0 1 If it's those portions of the record to which this 2 issue might be relevant, that, of course, is a very 3 different and much more burdensome task.
4 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Wouldn' t you agree on the 5 record now that it would be impossible?
6 (Laughter.)
7 MR. MILLER: So stipulated.
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. Well, we'll do the 9 best we can.
10 So we won' t have the hearing on Monday, and we'll 11 start Tuesday af ternoon.
12 We can continue now with the witness.
13 BY MR. GUILD:
14 Q Mr. Perryman, before the recess, I had asked you about a 15 number of instances involving Mr. Saklak, and you had 16 mentioned a few. Then I brought one more to your 17 attention, and that was one involving Mr. Joe Hii.
18 First, can you identify who Mr. Hii is?
19 A At the time he was my Lead Welding Inspector. Now he is 20 a supervisor for Comstock.
l i
21 Q All right.
- 22 He was a Lead Welding Inspector at the time?
l 23 A At the time.
l 24 Q And you were in Mr. Hii's company and Mr. Saklak's as
{) 25 well at the time?
- Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
! Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9641 0 1 A Yes, I was.
2 0 All right, sir.
3 And what -- what interchange between Hii and Saklak 4 did you witness?
5 A Just a verbal chewing-out, rather lengthy, and 6 finger-pointing.
7 0 Saklak to Hii?
8 A To Hii, right.
9 0 Do you know what the substance of -- can you recall the 10 substance of what Mr. Saklak said to Mr. Hii?
11 A No, I really can't.
12 0 Can you recall whether Mr. Hii responded in kind?
13 Was he loud, abusive and threatening back to Mr.
14 Saklak?
15 A No, not at all.
16 0 Can you recall the substance of anything Mr. Hii said 17 back?
18 A He was very quiet.
19 0 When did this encounter take place that you witnessed?
20 A The date?
21 0 Well, how about a month or year, if you can't pin it 22 down to a date.
23 A Either one would be pretty hard to pin down.
24 It was --
25 Before March of '85, when Mr. Saklak was the subject of
[' Q Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9642 0 1 your complaint to the NRC?
2 A Oh, it was before that.
3 0 Okay.
4 A It was during the time when I was training for cable 5 pull -- but I couldn' t tell you when that was --
6 0 Okay.
7 A -- or after I had just gotten certified. I can't 8 remember which.
9 0 Can you recall what sort of work you were doing with Mr.
10 Hii at the time?
11 A No.
12 He had evidently gone down to check something out 13 of the vault.
14 0 Was it at the vault that this altercation took place?
15 A Yes, it was.
16 0 All right, sir.
17 You observed Saklak and Hii in this exchange; 18 Saklak raised his voice and shook his finger at Hii and 19 chewed him out, as you said.
20 Did Mr. Saklak depart -- or did Mr. Hii depart?
21 Excuse me.
22 A Yeah. We both had to go somewhere --
23 0 All right.
24 A -- afterwards, and that's the last I heard.
25 0 All right.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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l l
9643 l
l O Did you have a subsequent conversation with Mr.
1 2 Saklak where he referred to Mr. Hii?
3 A Yeah.
4 On the way back out to the 426 field office, he was 5 -- he was still in a bad mood, and he just kind of said 6 that if Joe Hii was outside or something, he'd kick the 7 shit out of him or something like that.
8 I can't remember exactly what it was.
9 MR. GUILD: If I may have a moment, Mr.
10 Chairman.
11 BY MR. GUILD:
12 Q All right.
13 In your deposition, Mr. Perryman, last March 3, 14 1986, at Page 94, you recalled then Saklak, Line 20 --
15 "He says, 'If I weren't on the plant site, I'd kill 16 him.'"
17 A It could possibly have been.
18 Q Are those the words Mr. Saklak used?
19 A It could have been something like that. It's been a
! 20 long time, l
l 21 0 Did you ever discuss that matter with -- that statement 22 by Saklak with Mr. Hii or anyone else after he made it?
23 A No.
24 O Did you bring it to the attention of anyone in 25 management?
)
l l
Sonntaa Reporting Service, Ltd.
l i Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9644 O
1 A No.
2 0 was that interchange that you observed between Hii and 3 Saklak or Saklak and Hii -- was that, in your opinion, 4 typical of Mr. Saklak's behavior or atypical?
5 A Just typical of his immaturity.
6 Q Did you ever become aware of any interaction between 7 Saklak and a QC Inspector named Rick Martin?
8 A Not that I can recall offhand.
9 0 Are you aware of whether Martin and Saklak got along?
10 A Not really.
11 0 You just don't have any knowledge on the subject?
12 A I don' t have any knowledge of that, no.
13 0 You said Mr. Saklak -- or this incident involving Hii 14 was typical of Saklak's immaturity.
15 Was it your opinion that Saklak was immature?
16 1 take it to stand for that proposition.
17 A Yes, I do.
18 Q He was a young man, was he not?
19 A He was in his 20 's.
20 0 What was your opinion of Saklak as a supervisor?
21 A Unprofessional.
22 0 In what respect?
23 MR. MILLER: May I have the answer?
24 THE WITNESS: " Unprofessional."
25 MR. MILL ER : Thank you.
)
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9645 O 1 BY MR. GUILD:
2 0 In what respects was he unprofessional?
3 A Well, he -- he must never have had any training on how 4 to handle people.
5 I mean, you learn that everybody has a different 6 problem. You have to treat everybody a little 7 different, and you don't just blow your cool like that.
8 You can be mad as hell if you want, but you just 9 have to learn how to control it somehow.
10 0 And was it your observation that Mr. Saklak controlled 11 his anger or his temper?
12 A Not the f ew times I had seen him.
O 13 Q All right.
14 Did you have occasion to observe Mr. Irv DeWald's 15 management style and performance?
16 A I still do.
17 0 You still do.
18 And what opinion, if any, have you formed of Mr.
19 DeWald's management performance, Mr. Perryman?
20 A Not a very good one.
l 21 Q And why is that, sir?
- 22 MR. MILLER
- Your Honor, I do object.
l
- 23 Opinions of Mr. DeWald's management style, unless l
24 they' re related to incidents of alleged harassment or 25 intimidation, it seems to me are irrelevant.
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(
l JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, he's probing for a 2 reason for the answer and --
3 MR. MILLER : Well, the question was asked in 4 a general fashion and is likely to elicit testimony that 5 is -- may very well be irrelevant to any issue in this 6 proceeding.
7 I think a more focused question can easily be asked 8 of the witness.
9 MR. GUILD: I'm trying not to --
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Right now he's adapting the 11 technique of asking a general question and then 12 following it up with specifics. I don' t see anything 13 wrong with that.
14 Continue, Mr. Guild.
15 BY MR. GUILD:
16 0 All right.
17 You stated just a moment ago that your opinion of s 18 Mr. DeWald's management was not good.
19 What's the basis for that opinion, Mr. Perryman, if 20 anything?
21 A Af ter working under him for almost three years, you get 22 to watch somebody and you know his habits.
23 He listons to people sometimes that I just don' t 24 agree with, that have nothing to do with my job. There
{} 25 have been times when he has personally tried to find me Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
l 9647 O wrong, rather than the craft person or persons that 1
2 happened to be doing the job.
3 Q Mr. DeWald is certified as a Level III welding 4 inspector.
5 Are you aware of that fact?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q All right.
8 Do you have an opinion as to Mr. DeWald's knowledge 9 and experience as a weld inspector?
10 A If he's certified, he must be a welding inspector.
11 Q Do you have an opinion as to his performance as a weld 12 inspector?
13 A (No response.)
14 Q Does Mr. DeWald appear to you to be knowledgeable in 15 matters of weld inspection?
16 A I'd have to think that one out, i
17 Q All right.
l 18 Have you ever asked Mr. DeWald questions on 19 interpretation of the American Welding Society D1.1 l
20 code, for example?
21 A No, I haven't.
22- Q How about an interpretation of the Comstock welding or 23 weld inspection procedures?
l 24 A I deal very little with Irv on a personal basis.
25 0 All right.
! Sonntac Reportino Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9648 O
, 1 Have you ever observed Mr. DeWald in the field 2 performing a weld inspection or involved in work related 3 to weld inspection?
4 A Only one time that I can really remember.
5 0 And what happened on that occasion?
6 A At that particular time, I was doing a Unit 2 switch 7 gear room for weld inspection. I had been writing some 8 ICR's and NCR's, and there seemed to be a conflict.
9 When my paperwork got up to Irv DeWald, he didn't 10 like what I had written on some of them about 11 insufficient weld length or weld sizes.
12 So he came out with a man at the time that was, I 13 believe, named John Cacero -- I can't swear to his first 14 name -- from CECO.
15 0 Was he the project superintendent?
16 A At the time, yes.
l 17 0 All right, sir.
18 A And --
19 0 " Dick Cacero" I believe is the gentleman's name.
l 20 A Pardon me?
21 Q I believe " Dick Cacero" is the gentleman's name.
22 A I really couldn't remember his first name.
23 Q All right.
24 A They came into the switch gear room while I was in there 25 inspecting and asked me where this one particular hanger
[}
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
i Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262 l .-
9649
)
O was that had -- I don't know -- I believe it was 28 1
2 welds undersized on it.
3 I showed them the hanger, and he got rather irate 4 with me about that he didn't feel they were undersized 5 and --
6 0 "He," DeWaJd?
7 A Irv DeWald did not f eel they were undersized.
8 Q Right. ,
9 A I handed him my fillet gauge and told him to check them; 10 that they were undersized according to the -- the 11 procedure. He got a Jittle mad about that and started 12 hollering about something or another.
13 Then Mr. Cacero jumped in about another hanger, and 14 he told me that the weld was long enough.
15 0 Who is "he"; DeWald?
16 A Mr. Cacero.
i 17 Q Mr. Cacero did?
l 18 A At that time.
19 I told Mr. Cacero that the weld was of the right 20 length but it was in the wrong place. He said, "Well, l
l 21 I'll have the design document changed." I said, " Fine.
22 When you do that, then it will be all right. Until 23 then, it's not."
24 So about a half hour or an hour later, Irv DeWald 25 came back in with a man named Stu Klevens from S & L,
}
Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
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i 9650 0 1. which -- at the time I think he was a Level III, I 2 believe.
3 0 A Level III weld Inspector?
4 A Yes.
5 He went over the same hanger, and it just -- at 6 that time just really burned me that he had done that.
7 0 That DeKald had done this?
8 A Yeah, that he still had to try to prove me wrong, which 9 he didn't do anyway.
t 10 0 All right.
11 Now, did Mr. DeWald -- when you first, in the 12 presence of Mr. Cacero, pointed out the presence of the 13 undersized welds and handed him the fillet gauge, did he i 14 measure the size of the welds?
15 A Yes, he did.
16 0 Did he confirm your measurement that the welds were 17 undersized?
18 A Not at first.
19 When he first did it, he was checking on the size 20 of the fillet. He wasn't checking the leg size. He 21 wasn't using the right end of the fillet gauge.
22 0 All right.
23 A I pointed that out to him. He got kind of hostile about 24 it and threw it down and said he never used that end. I 25 said, "Well, you'd better start."
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9651 1 0 Did you take what Mr. DeWald said as a joke when he said 2 he never used the correct end of the fillet gauge?
3 A You'd almost have to.
4 Q Do you think he knew what the correct end of the fillet 5 gauge was?
6 A Yes, he should.
7 Q He should have?
8 A Yes, he should have.
9 Q Do you know whether he did, in fact, know the correct 10 use of the gauge?
11 A I couldn' t tell what was on his mind at the time.
12 Q Describe what a fillet gauge is, would you, for the 13 Board and parties?
14 A A fillet gauge is used to measure the length of the 15 welds, their convexity and their leg sizes. It's just a 16 metal gauge.
17 0 Is it a basic tool of quality control inspection of 18 welds?
19 A Yes, it is.
20 0 All right.
l 21 Are all weld inspectors issued fillet gauges?
22 A Yes, they are.
l 23 0 Is part of your training and qualification in the use of 24 the fillet gauge to inspect weld size?
l 25 A It's part of our testing.
)
1 Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
l Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
l 9652 0 1 Q Part of the testing you'd assume Mr. DeWald would have 2 taken in order to get certified as a Level III Weld 3 Inspector?
4 A Oh, definitely.
5 Q Now, is it a basic fact, in the use of a fillet gauge, 6 to use the correct part of the gauge to measure the 7 appropriate part of the weld?
8 A You have to use both ends all the time.
9 Q After DeWald said he never used that end of the gauge 10 and threw it down, that's when he went and got the 11 Sargent & Lundy Level III to come back and double-check 12 your work?
13 A Yes, after that time, he did.
14 Q Did you ever have occasion to hear that Mr. DeWald had 15 performed weld inspections himself at the site when he 16 was a Level II Inspector?
17 A I've heard of them.
18 Q Did you ever have occasion to hear that Mr. DeWald had 19 inspected in excess of 1,000 welds on a single day or 20 had documented 1,000 welds or more on a single 21 checklist?
22 A I've seen that, yes.
23 MR. MILLER: Excuse me.
24 I should have objected to the question because it 25 really did ask two separate things. Now the witness has
[}
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
l Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9653 O answered, "I've seen that."
1 2 MR. GUILD: I'll follow up, and I appreciate 3 the form of the question was a little unclear.
4 JUDG3 GROSSMAN: I believe your answer was 5 you've seen the checklist?
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, I have.
7 BY MR. GUILD:
8 0 I believe that's what you were responding to. All 9 right, sir.
10 And what -- you've seen a checklist signed by Mr.
11 DeWald?
12 A Yes, I have.
O 13 Q A Form 19.
14 How many welds were documented on that checklist?
15 A There was a couple of them. I've seen one was for 16 something like 500 and one was for 1,039.
17 0 Now, let's focus on the second of those, the 1,039-weld 18 checklist.
, 19 Was that a Comstock Form 19?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q And on what occasion did you come across this checklist?
22 A Back in it would be early '84, we were doing what was 23 called a " backlog." We were sent out with what we 24 called HIR's, Hanger Installation Reports.
25 So you had to go down to the vault and try and pick
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Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
I 9654 l
1 up any checklist you could on what they used to call i
i 2 " grid squares." A lot of inspections were done under 3 grid squares, and they would give you a simple grid to 4 work off of, rather than a specific location.
5 So as you're going through all these old forms, 6 they had a bunch of " reconstituted," they call them --
7 reconstituted Form 19's.
8 0 What happened then?
9 A Well, that was the time when I had seen it.
10 Q All right.
11 What is a reconstituted Form 19?
12 A Well, from what I understand of it, they'll have a grid 13 square Form 19, calling out so many hangers by number 14 that were signed off, somewhat similar to that, stating 15 X amount of welds.
16 They would reconstitute it to cover each hanger 17 that was on there. They would make a copy of that and l 18 say, "Okay. This is for Hanger H-such-and-such, Hanger 19 CC-133," or whatever.
i 20 So if there was 30 hangers on that particular list, l
21 they would have 30 -- 29 reconstituted and the one 22 original.
23 Q All right.
24 And would there be an indication that the copies,
{} 25 the photocopies of the original, were reconstituted l
l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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9655 O
1 records?
2 A Yes, there would.
3 Q A rubber-stamp mark?
4 A Yeah. There was something up in the corner. I forget 5 exactly what it read.
6 Q " Reconstituted record" or words to that effect?
7 A Something like that.
8 0 All right.
9 I'm going to show you Intervenors' Exhibit 18.
10 This is an old checklist. This particular checklist --
11 it's not Mr. DeWald's. This is a checklist that was 12 signed by an inspector named Richard Yanketis.
13 (Indicating.)
14 A Uh-huh.
15 0 It happens to document 1,166 welds, and it has a l
i 16 rubber-stamp mark on it that says, "This is a 17 reconstituted record."
18 Now, is this the sort of checklist on which you l 19 identified a DeWald inspection reflecting in excess of 20 1,000 welds?
21 A No. This is a -- this is a Form 91. That's not a Form 22 19.
23 Q Okay. Right you are.
24 This is an Ernst record; correct? Form 91's were 25 Ernst records?
Sonntaa Reporting Service, Ltd.
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9656 O
1 A I have no idea.
2 0 Was the stamp mark " reconstituted record" of the sort 3 that you' re referring to on the DeWald checklist?
4 A It was somewhere over on the side here. They put 5 " reconstituted" in here.
6 (Indicating.)
7 MR. GUILD: If I can have just a moment, if I 8 could have a moment, Mr. Chairman, I'm hunting an 9 exhibit here.
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Sure: .
11 JUDGE COLE: If you're looking for an example 12 of a Form 19, there's one on the very last page of that 13 exhibit.
14 MR. GUILD: Yes.
15 I was going to show the witness another checklist 16 by Mr. DeWald that's in evidence, and I'm just simply l
17 trying to find the number.
! 18 MR. MILL ER : Exhibit 19 I believe is a DeWald 19 checklist.
20 MR. GUILD: Thanks.
21 BY MR. GUILD:
22 Q All right.
l Mr. Perryman, let me show you Intervenors' Exhibit 23 24 19. It's a PTL cover sheet attached to a Form 19 25 checklist for Mr. DeWald, and it reflects 551 welds on
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Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9657 O this particular checklist.
1 2 (Indicating.)
3 Now, is that the form in which you found the 4 checklist that had more than 1,000 welds?
5 A Yes, something similar to it.
6 0 Okay.
7 A This is the thing I was talking about.
8 (Indicating.) ,
9 0 All right.
10 On the cover sheet, the PTL cover sheet, there's a 11 rubber-stamp mark that says "Oc tracking record" and has 12 a hanger number on it?
O 13 A That's correct.
14 Q And that's the stamp mark that would be placed on each 15 cf the photocopied checklists, and the unique hanger 16 number for that particular file would be marked on the 17 blank?
18 A That's correct.
19 0 Okay.
20 You came across this hanger -- weld checklist 21 showing Mr. DeWald's work, the 1,039 welds.
22 Did you do or say anything about this checklist?
23 Did you mention it to anyone else?
24 A Oh, it was all over the plant already anyway.
25 0 Had you seen copies of this checklist before you ran Sonntac Reportino Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134
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9658 O
1 into it yourself in the vault?
2 A Yes, I had.
3 0 All right.
4 And it was the same -- same document or a photocopy 5 of the same document?
6 A Yes, it was.
7 0 1,039 welds?
8 A Yes, it was.
9 0 Can you recall the location where the weld inspections 10 were that were the subject of this Form 19?
11 A No, I cannot.
12 0 Can you recall any other identifying information about 13 the DeWald checklist that you've just described?
14 A No; just that it had, like I said, that main cover sheet 15 there covering a bunch of hangers on it --
16 0 All right.
17 A -- and the amount of welds.
18 Q Do you know what elevation it was on or what room?
19 A No, I do not.
20 0 Was this DeWald checklist the subject of general 21 conversation among QC Inspectors?
22 A Yes, it was.
23 0 And what was the nature of the comments that you heard 24 among inspectors on the subject of Mr. DeWald's 25 one-thousand-plus-weld checklist?
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
b659 (2) l 1 A It was more of a joke than anything else. It was just l 2 putting that many hangers or that many welds on one 3 checklist, when we have to put down one hanger at a 4 time, 5 0 All right.
6 Can you estimate how many hangers were documented 7 on the one-thousand-plus-weld checklist?
8 A No, I cannot.
9 0 Would it have been in excess of 50?
10 A I would have no idea.
11 Q Was there a PTL cover sheet for the particular checklist 7g 12 that you saw?
V 13 A Just like that.
14 (Indicating.)
15 Q Like the one I have in Intervenors' Exhibit 19.
16 Did it list individual hangers involved?
17 A Yes, it did.
18 Q All right.
19 Did you happen to count them?
20 A No, I didn't.
21 Q What, if anything, was unusual or extraordinary about 22 the checklist that had one-thousand-plus welds 23 documented on it, Mr. Perryman?
24 A Well, at the time it was just unusual to have anything 25 of -- that large amount of welds on anything.
Sonntao Reportino Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
l 9660 0 1 Our average hanger might have six to ten welds, 2 maybe.
3 0 And that would be documented on a single checklist?
4 A Yes.
5 0 All right.
6 Now, I take it that the checklist that you saw 7 completed by Mr. DeWald was dated and signed by Mr.
8 DeWald?
9 A Yes, it was.
10 Q Did it have more than one date on it by his signature?
11 A I really don't remember. I doubt it, though.
12 0 Was it the practice to simply just put a single date on 13 a checklist?
14 A It is today.
15 0 It is today.
16 Do you know whether or not the checklist that you 17 saw of Mr. DeWald's reflected that the inspections had 18 been completed on a single day?
19 A No, I wouldn't know that for a fact.
20 Q Did you ever bring this matter to Mr. DeWald's 21 attention?
22 A No, sir.
23 Q Are you aware of anyone bringing it to his attention?
24 A Not that I know of.
25 Q Did Mr. DeWald ever discuss his own past Level II weld l
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. l Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9661 0 1 inspection experience with you or with inspectors in 2 your hearing?
3 A Not really.
4 Once or twice he had mentioned he was a welding 1
5 inspector out there at one time before he was manager.
6 Q All right.
7 Did he ever refer to the practices in those old 8 days when he was a weld inspector?
9 A No, sir.
10 Q Did he ever make any references to his own past 11 performance of over 1,000 weld inspections in a single 12 day or documented on a single checklist?
13 A No, sir.
14 Q Mr. Perryman, during the time that you have been a Level 15 II at Comstock, have you ever been aware of there being 16 a cacklog in quality control inspections as compared to i
17 completed installations?
18 A I don' t know what you mean.
19 Q Well, a backlog in the sense of not being current on 20 inspections after the work to be inspected had been i
i 21 completed by the craf t, backlogged inspections.
22 A We had had -- like I said earlier, back in early '84 or 23 somewhere in there, we had what we called a " backlog,"
24 which was -- I believe it was af ter they had changed l
{} 25 their procedure to go f rom like -- what was it? -- 30 Sonntaa Reportino Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9662 CE) 1 percent or something like that.
2 They used to do so many percent of hangers at one 3 time for saf ety-related. They would inspect, and 4 they --
5 0 They used to inspect only a percentage of the hangers?
6 A At one time.
7 Q All right.
8 A So they went and they called a backlog on the hangers 9 that they had Hanger Installation Reports for but no 10 documentation for inspection in the vault, whether it 11 was lost or whatever, and that's what we call " backlog."
l 12 We went out and did that.
- (
13 0 All right.
! 14 Now, the record reflects that when Mr. DeWald 15 became QC Mar.ager in the f all of 1983, shortly before 4 16 you came on-site, that he found a backlog of 14,000 17 inspections not performed.
18 Were you ever aware that there was a backlog of 19 that amount?
l 20 A That's what we were working in. I don' t know what the 21 amount was at the time, but that was the backlog we were 22 working in.
23 Q All right, sir.
l 24 Were you ever aware of a backlog in the review of i
25 quality control documents under the QC document review l
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l Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262 I
, -.,y - _ . _ _ _ . . . , _ - . , , . _ , . , . . . , . . ~ . , , . . , . . . . ~ . . . - _ . .....__...-_..m.,. .-, , _ , _ , _ _ , , , _ . . . . . , , - , - . . , . , . _ .
9663 1 program?
2 A No, I'm not.
3 0 Have you ever heard of such a program?
4 A No, I haven't.
5 0 Did Mr. DeWald ever discuss the backlog in inspections 6 during general meetings with the Quality Control 7 Inspectors?
8 A I don' t know if it was Irv DeWald or if it was Larry 9 Seese that used to give us statistics on -- at the 10 meetings that we had.
11 I can' t remember whether they were weekly or 12 biweekly, but they would give the status on like cable 13 pull, welding, terms; whatever was there at the time --
14 0 All right.
l l 15 A -- that they had to do.
16 0 And would they discuss the extent of the backlog at that i
17 time?
l 18 A They wouldn't really discuss it. They'd just run off a 19 figure at you.
20 0 Would they state at that time that by a certain time, a 21 certain amount of work needed to be performed by QC to 22 address the backlog?
23 A They would address a date that was given them to clear 24 up certain areas that they had.
25 0 All right.
Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262 L ___ .
9664 1 And what was your understanding of the source of 2 that date that was given them?
3 Where did that date come from?
4 A I would imagine it had to come from CECO.
5 Q From Commonwealth Edison Company?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q Did you ever hear any concerns expressed by management 8 at Comstock, Mr. Perryman, that Comstock might be in 9 jeopardy of losing its contract for the electrical work 10 because of failure to achieve a milestone in his 11 backlog?
12 A Not that I can remember.
O 1
13 0 Jo you recall any discussion among QC Inspectors of 14 possible loss of contract b-j -- by Comstock?
15 A There's rumors out there every day.
, 16 Q Rumors to that effect?
17 A To almost anything you want to come up with.
18 (Laughter.)
19 0 Well, maybe so, but I'm asking if you were ever aware of 20 rumors to the effect that Comstock was in jeopardy of i
- 21 losing the electrical contract.
l l 22 A The only rumor I can really recall is when Newberg took l
23 over Unit 2.
24 0 Well, that was a fact; right?
l
, 25 A Well, prior to that, it was a rumor.
i Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinojs 60134 (312) 232-0262
9665 O 1 (Laughter.)
2 Q And the rumor proved to be a fact; right?
3 A Yes.
4 0 Comstock got relieved of its contract for Unit 2, and 5 V;wberg took over the electrical contract?
6 A Part of it, yes.
7 0 All right.
8 Were you ever aware of any production goals or 9 quotas being established by anyone for the performance 10 of quality control inspection work?
11 A No.
12 Q How about numbers of inspections to be performed in a 13 unit of time, such as a certain number of hangers to be i
14 inspected in a day, for example?
15 A Not in the areas I was working.
16 Q How about any such a quota or goal measuring production, l 17 established by Sargent & Lundy?
18 A You've got to be referring to the walkdown.
19 0 Well, I'm asking you, and I am looking at the testimony 20 you gave in your deposition.
21 Are you aware of such a quota being established by l
l 22 Sargent & Lundy regarding the walkdown?
23 A There was a quota at one time when we first started the 24 walkdown.
25 0 All right.
Sonntaa Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9666 O And can you explain what that quota was, as you 1
2 understood it?
- 3 A When we first started the cable pan walkdown, Sargent &
4 Lundy had come up with some sort of quota for the 5 Sargent & Lundy personnel; that they had expected so 6 many hangers a day to be done, figuring on something 7 they had done at Byron.
8 For a while, it took a little bit to talk to Mr.
9 Kalinowski and get him to understand that you can' t go 10 on numbers when you' re doing an inspection; some are 11 more complicated than the others.
12 0 You had to perform inspection functions at the same rate 13 as the Sargent & Lundy people were performing their 14 functions?
I 15 A No.
l 16 They had -- he had given them a quota, something --
l 17 I forget what; 20 hangers a day or something like that.
l 18 He didn't tell me I ever had to have a quota, but 19 what had come down was that the man that was working 20 with me -- I had a drafts person with me.
21 I would tell him what was up in the air. He would 22 draw it out or correct what was on the print and have it 23 look as to what was up in the air.
24 I guess they were getting in hot water f rom their j
{) 25 management because they weren't getting the amount of Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9667
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x 1 hangers they wanted.
2 So myself and I believe it was Bruce Brown -- I s s 3 don't swear to it right now -- we went in and talked to 4 fir. Kalinowski about it and explained to him the f act 5 that you could not do a certain amount of hangers a day.
6 I can give you a hanger that would take you 10 7 minutes or I can give you one that would take you two 8 weeks, and that's all there is to it.
9 He did not understand the inspection part. He was 10 used to being able to go out and just look at something 11 and write down what's there. He did not understand 12 inspection.
13 Q "He," Mr. Kalinowski?
14 A Mr. Kalinowski, yes.
15 0 Who was Mr. Kalinowski?
16 A He was in charge of the S & L walkdown.
17 Q All right.
18 i Now, I gather f rom your, testimony that the Comstock 19 QC Inspectors were working in conjunction with Sargent &
20 Lundy employees in this walkdown?
I 21 A Yes, we were.
22 O Well, isn't it a fact that your pace in effect 23 determined their pace; you had to keep up with them?
24 A They had to keep up with me.
25 0 They had to keep up with you, all right.
1 SoR_ntac Reportina Service, Ltd.
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9668 O
1 But you had to keep together; right?
2 A That's right.
3 0 All right.
4 So if they had a quota and they enforced the quota 5 and the quota was 20 a day for them, that would be a 6 quota for you, would it not, if you chose to work to 7 that?
8 MR. MILLER: I object to the form of the 9 question because there is a statement in the question 10 that is contradicted by the witness' prior testimony.
11 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I don' t think that's -- I
- 12 think that's too leading a question, Mr. Guild.
13 MR. GUILD: The question doesn't mean to 14 suppose --
15 JUDGE GROSSMAN : Objection sustained.
16 MR. GUILD: -- doesn' t mean to suppose the 17 answer one way or the other, but I'll rephrase the 18 question.
19 BY MR. GUILD:
20 Q Your testimony is that you couldn't work to this quota, 21 and you brought that f act to Mr. Kalinowski; right?
22 A That's right.
23 0 But to the extent that you were required to keep up with 24 the Sargent & Lundy people in that they had a quota, if 25 you went along with that quota, it could in effect have Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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I 9669 i
l
' l k$)
1 been a quota for you, too, wouldn' t it?
2 A If we were able to inspect 10 hangers a day -- let's 3 just say that number; I don't even know.
4 0 Yes.
5 A -- then Sargent & Lundy would get 10 pieces of paper 6 from me.
7 0 Right.
8 A Whether he has a quota or not can' t af fect me one bit, 9 because he can't do nothing with that piece of paper 10 unless I sign it.
11 Q Right.
12 But they wanted 20 completed hangers out of the O 13 Sargent & 7, undy people?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 0 And in order to get 20 hangers out of the Sargent &
16 Lundy people, they had to get 20 completed hangers out l
l 17 of Comstock QC Inspectors that were performing this work l
i 18 in tandem?
l i
19 A But they didn't get it.
l l
20 MR. MILLER: Your Honor --
21 BY MR. GUILD:
22 0 But they didn't get it?
l 23 A They didn't get it.
l
' 24 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Excuse me.
I 25 Why did you go to complain about what if you could
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9670 O
1 keep up with Sargent & Lundy?
2 THE WITNESS: I can keep up with Sargent &
3 Lundy because they have to keep up with me.
4 It's based on -- my inspection is the only thing 5 that's worth a damn there. If I only did one hanger a 6 day, he got one hanger off, so --
7 JUDGE GROSSMAN: But what I'm saying is: If 8 you didn't have any problem keeping up with the 9 requirements but it was Sargent & Lundy that had the 10 problem, why would you have gone to complain about it?
11 THE WITNESS: When this had come up, we 12 worked with these certain engineers or drafts persons, 13 whatever you want to call them; and they'd come up and 14 tell us that they needed, you know -- that Killer was 15 getting on them about getting so many done a day. They 16 had a certain time limit they wanted this particular 17 project done in. I forget even the date now.
18 I knew Killer from -- Mr. Kalinowski from being 19 around before, so I said I'd go in and talk to him and 20 explain to him the quality concerns on dolf.g an 21 inspection on a hanger, rather than just going up and 22 looking at it and drawing it on a piece of paper.
23 Af ter that time, af ter that particular date, there 24 was no more quotas on anybody. That was dropped.
25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: His nickname was " Killer"?
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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9671 O 1 THE WITNESS: " Killer," yes, sir.
2 (Laughter.)
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Did that have any 4 relationship to his job?
5 THE WITNESS: No, sir.
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Oh, ckay.
7 I thought -- he wasn' t a ramrodder, was he, as far 8 a s --
9 (Laughter.)
10 THE WITNESS: It was due to the ladies.
11 (Laughter.)
12 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay.
O 13 THE WITNESS: I could probably clear 14 so.mething up on that, too --
15 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Sure. Could you, please?
16 THE WITNESS: -- just to help you out a
(
l 17 little bit better.
l 18 I should have stated that in the cable pan l
19 walkdown, the QC Inspectors from Comstock were doing 20 saf ety- related. They also had a crew from strictly S &
21 L, with no inspectors along, that did nonsafety hangers.
l
[
! 22 That's where the conflict between how many could l
23 get done and how many could not began.
24 Nonsaf ety could do so many hangers because they had
(
r 25 no one up there checking everything out real close.
l Sonntaa Reporting Service, Ltd.
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9672 1 They wculd just draw what was up there, so they might --
2 their group might be turning in so many a day.
3 That's where Mr. Kalinowski figured that we should 4 be doing the same. He thought we were playing around, 5 and he did not, like I say, understand the inspection 6 part of our work --
7 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Fine.
8 THE WITNESS: -- that it takes longer.
9 BY MR. GUILD:
10 0 Was Bruce Brown working with you on this project?
11 A Yes, he was.
4 12 0 And he went over to see Killer along with you?
13 A I believe it was Bruce, myself and maybe Mr. Bossong.
14 0 Did you bring this problem to the attention of your 15 management, aside f rom the two other QC Inspectors, 16 Bossong and Mr. Brown?
! 17 A I think we talked it over with Tony -- I won' t swear to 18 that --
19 0 Tony Simile?
20 A Tony Simile.
21 -- because we pretty well handled that one on our 22 own. There was no real pressure with it.
23 We had started out this whole program by sitting l
24 down and talking with the S & L managers -- and I 25 believe CECO was there -- yes, CECO was there -- setting Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. I l Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9673 O 1 up how this program was originally supposed to work.
2 The only problem we had was that conflict between -
3 the nonsafety and the saf ety. He did not understand the 4 inspection part of it. So once we straightened that 5 out, it was all done.
6 I don't remember if we had any problem with Tony 7 about that or not.
8 Q Okay.
9 Did Tony go with you over to see Killer about this?
10 A No. We were right in the trailer with him all the time, 11 and he never had any problems. If anybody had a
- 12 problem, you'd just walk in and talk to him.
13 Q Now, was this the cable pan walkdown or another program?
14 A That's the cable pan walkdown.
15 0 What was it?
16 Give us an outline, if you would, of what the cable 17 pan walkdown was, if you would, Mr. Perryman.
18 A The cable pan walkdown was a reinspection for 19 configuration and weld placement of all safety-related 20 cable pan hangers.
21 What it basically came out to was they set up a 22 procedure on how to do it, and we worked off of what was 23 called a "Rev. O drawing." The Rev. O drawing would 24 give you the hanger number and the print number and all 25 the details that this hanger was supposed to have been
)
i Sonntao Reportina Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9674 O put up by at one time or another.
1 2 We went up and verified that information, whether 3 it was right or whether it was wrong. We put down if it 4 was wrong; or if something had changed, we would do 5 that.
6 At the end of the inspection, myself and the draf ts 7 person that was with me would sign that blueprint, 8 stating the day we did it and that all the details we 9 had looked at were correct.
10 I would have to fill out a Form 7, which is a 11 Comstock configuration checklist.
12 0 All right. Now, let me stop you there.
13 The blueprint that you signed -- was that the Rev.
14 O drawing?
15 A That was the Rev. O drawing.
16 Q And that indicated that the as-built conditions that you 17 observed in the field for that cable pan hanger were as 18 they were depicted in the Rev. O as modified, if 19 necessary?
20 A Let me put it --
21 Q Did you make changes to the Rev. O to show the as-built 22 condition found?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And then you signed what you found?
25 A Yes, we did.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9675 O 1 I interrupted you. Go on.
Q 2 What happened after that, after you signed the Rev.
3 0 drawing and you signed the Form -- I forgot the 4 number.
5 A The Form 7.
6 0 The configuration checklist?
7 A Yes, that's what it is.
8 0 Okay.
9 What happened then?
10 A We would -- I'm trying to remember. We would sign the 11 Form 7 and leave the review blank. There's always a 12 Level II review on your inspection checklist.
13 Well, after a while, that got to bothering some of 14 us because it seemed that they were -- we didn' t like 15 the way the procedure read that we had started out with, 16 because it made it look like that I was accepting that 17 hanger. That I didn' t agree with.
18 What I was doing was giving them an as-built of i
l 19 that hanger and not accepting it, so --
20 Q Let me interrupt you again.
21 Can you recall what procedure it was that provided l
22 for this Form 7, the configuration procedure?
?3 A That configuration is 4312 -- 4812.
l 24 0 4.8.12?
l 25 A Yes.
I i
Sonntac Reportina Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9676 O 1 This happened to be the Form 7; you were using this for Q
2 the walkdown program.
3 A Correct.
l 4 0 All right, sir. I interrupted you.
5 Continue, if you would.
6 A So like I said, the main thing we were worried about was 7 when you sign off a Form 7, that means that I accept 8 this hanger.
9 Well, we were kind of leery about that, and we had 10 brought it up a few times to Tony and some of the other 11 management at Cometock that we were buying a hanger off 12 that I knew was not -- that was not up in the air that O 13 way.
14 If you understood the program, it just made you 4
15 leery because you don't sign the accept Form 7 that 16 something is different up there, even though I knew they 17 would get reviewed and brought back on a Rev. A. That's 18 when they were supposed to get the Level II's to sign 19 off.
20 Well, I didn' t trust that because, as f ar as I was 21 concerned, the minute I signed that Form 7, that hanger i
l 22 is acceptable.
l 23 So they -- we argued over that for quite a while, i
24 and I know there was three changes, if not four.
25 0 When you say "we argued," who is "we"?
l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9677 I
l
(
1 A Well, some of us that were in the walkdown at the time.
2 0 Okay.
3 You argued wich whom?
4 A Tony Simile and some other management, trying to get 5 them to change it to our way of thinking.
6 0 What was their attitude or opinion, "they" being Mr.
7 Simile and management?
8 What did they say about it?
9 A Well, they weren' t too happy with it because it was a 10 program they wanted to get done and we were throwing 11 wrinkles in it on them. They had a time limit, so they 12 weren' t happy about it.
13 We argued quite a bit; they changed it once. We 14 argued some more; they changed it again. I believe 15 there was the fourth change, the Rev. 4 on them -- on 16 that particular procedure. It was finally down the way 17 it should have been on Rev. 1.
18 MR. GUILD: Mr. Chairman, could I suggest 19 about a five-minute recess?
20 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Sure.
21 (WHEREUPON, a recess was had, after which 22 the proceedings were resumed as follows:)
23 JUDGE GROSSMAN: We're back in session.
24 Mr. Guild?
25 MR. GUILD: Thank you.
Sonntaq Reportino Service, Ltd.
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9678 O 1 BY MR. GUILL:
2 Q Mr. Perryman, you described a moment ago, before the 3 recess, the walkdown program.
4 You were in the process of describing the cable pan 5 walkdown program and the fact that it went through a 6 number of revisions, some of which resulted from 7 concerns expressed by you and others who were performing 8 that program.
4 9 A Yes.
- 10 0 All right.
j 11 Now, those -- you also stated that some of these 12 concerns led to heated discussions with management, 13 including Mr. Simile.
14 Did.you come to request a transfer out of the cable
- 15 pan walkdown program as a consequence of these disputes?
16 A A couple times.
17 Q Okay.
4 18 And what led you to ask for a transfer?
19 A Well, when we first brought up the ideas, like I said, 20 of some of the changes because we felt we were being put
- 21 in as responsible as saying the hanger was correct, they 1
22 didn't want to -- they interpreted it another way. They 23 interpreted the procedure one way; I interpreted it 24 another. So I didn' t like it.
25 I figured I was going to get out of it before I got Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
- Geneva, Illirois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9679 1 in so deep I couldn't get out. But we did argue enough 2 that they finally did change the procedure, and I did 3 get out.
4 0 All right.
5 When you said get out before you got in -- I missed 6 your last answer, the actual words.
7 JUDGE GROSSMAN: " Deep enough."
8 BY MR. GUILD:
9 0 What do you mean, " deep enough"?
10 A Well, at the time we first started complaining about 11 that procedure, the way we thought they were using it, I 12 had probably done maybe 100, 150 hangers, which meant 13 that I had signed off stating a fact that those were 14 correct, and that wasn' t the purpose or the scope of the 15 procedure.
16 But I seen them going into our vault, which -- all 17 final papers go to our vault; that is, the documents 18 that are on file for 40 years or whatever. I started 19 reading and thinking, and I says, "If I'm signing this, l
20 that means I bought this hanger."
21 0 The configuration inspection?
22 A The configuration of this hanger.
23 I'm saying, "Yes, that is correct," even though the 24 procedure read a 1.ttle different.
l l 25 So myself and a couple of the other inspectors
)
l Sonntaa Reportina Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9680 0 1 started holding off on sending them in, even. We would 2 do the inspection. I had all the apparent paperwork 3 done, but I wouldn't send it in until they changed that 4 procedure to where it was supposed to be reviewed after 5 they came back with a Rev. A drawing, see, because my 6 Form 7 and the original old drawing went into the vault.
7 When that hanger was brought back after it was 8 structurally analyzed down there at Chicago by S & L, 9 they would say that what was up there that we had drawn 1
10 on the Rev. O was structurally sound.
11 Then they were supposed to be reviewed, what we 12 call "Rev. A-Rev. O." You would look at the Rev. A 13 print and see if everything f rom the Rev. O that you 14 drew on there was incorporated into this Rev. A.
15 Well, we didn' t like the f act that somebody else 16 was actually doing the reviewing of that drawing.
17 0 You mean somebody other than you, the original QC 18 Inspector that did the configuration?
19 A Yes. That was one of our first problems.
20 0 Who would they have doing the comparison of the Rev. A 21 to the Rev. O, if not you?
22 A Tiley had another group that was welding and 23 configuration inspectors.
24 0 But not the ones that actually looked at the hanger in 25 the field?
O, Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9681 O
1 A That's correct.
2 Q All right, sir.
3 A So that bothered us. We wanted to review our own 4 paperwork and the drawings that we had looked at, 5 because you can remember a lot of hangers.
6 I can remember hangers that I've done two years ago 7 by looking at them. I can walk out and just remember 8 them.
9 So we wanted to review them the way that we saw 10 them, and we knew everything would get incorporated.
11 Now, we've seen prints that are up to B, C, D and 12 E, which means it wasn't all incorporated the first 1
l O 13 time.
14 Q In the Rev. A?
15 A In the Rev. A.
16 So they made a change here and a change here, and 17 this is what really got us worried. So I said I didn't 18 want it if they didn' t put it down to that. I was not 19 responsible for that hanger. I am responsible for what 20 I drew on that Rev. O drawing.
21 Q All right.
22 A That's what I was signing, that this is what's up in the l
23 air; not that this hanger is acceptable, because in my l 24 opinion, some of them weren't.
l
[} 25 All right. '
Q Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
l 9682
(
l Now, having raised these concerns and at least at 2 some point not having achieved a satisf actory response, 3 you wanted a transfer out of the program; is that your 4 testimony?
5 A Yes, I did.
6 Q Now, I'm going to show you some documents that have been 7- previously admitted into evidence earlier in the 8 hearing, Mr. Perryman, and they' re marked as 9 Intervenors' Exhibit 35. They' re a series of memos that 10 appear to be authored by you.
11 The first of those memos in time is dated the 8th
- 12 of May,1985, and it appears to be addressed to Mr.
13 Schirmer, Mr. Landers --
14 A Schrimer.
15 Q Excuse me.
I 16 -- Schrimer, Landers and simile, and it requests a 17 reply to a previous request for transfer.
l 18 (Indicating.)
19 Had you made an oral request or another written 20 request before this one of May 8th?
21 A I had another written request somewhere. I always put 22 it in writing.
23 0 So there's one that was before May 8th, even?
24 A Evidently.
25 0 Okay.
/)
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60334 (312) 232-0262
9683 O 1 And can you recall whether you had gotten a reply 2 to the request before May 8th?
3 A No, I didn't. That's why I wrote that one.
4 0 You wrote the May 8th request then, and you requested a 5 response to that.
6 Did you get a response to that?
7 A Well, I got some responses. I don't know which one it 8 was in answer to.
9 0 Well, do you recall whether you got an answer to the May 10 8th one or not?
11 A Not without reading those you got there. One of them gg 12 might have answered.
V 13 I'm going to show you, then, the May 13th. There's a 0
14 second document that's dated May 13th, addressed to Mr.
15 DeWald from you, stating that you had sent two previous 16 requests for a transf er.
17 (Indicating.)
18 Now, take a moment and examine -- why don't I ask 19 you to examine that document, the May 13th, and the last 20 document is a May 17, '85, memo.
21 Do you recall having authored those three memos?
22 A Yes, I did'.
23 Q Could you take a moment and review them, Mr. Perryman,
~
24 and then I'll ask you a question or two about them.
25 All right, sir.
Sonntaq Reportina Service, Ltd.
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9684 O 1 Have you had a chance to look at them?
2 A Yes, I have.
3 Q Now, I asked you about the May 8th letter, and you got 4 no reply to that, did you?
5 A No, I didn't.
6 0 Then you wrote a May 13th memo to DeWald, and it appears 7 that Mr. DeWald responded to that one two days later, on 8 the 15th.
9 Had you seen Mr. DeWald's reply before today?
10 A Yes, I had. I seen Tony and Mr. DeWald both signed that 11 one.
12 0 Okay.
O 13 And Mr. DeWald -- Mr. Simile writes, " Transfer is 14 not possible at the present time."
15 Now, what was Mr. Simile's relationship to you in 16 this particular project?
17 A Well, he is my supervisor.
l 18 0 Was he your supervisor at that time?
l l 19 A Yes, he was.
l l
20 Q Was he running this cable pan walkdcwn project?
21 A He was the supervisor in charge of it, yes.
22 0 Okay.
23 Did Simile state anything to you at the time of his 24 response to your May 13th letter, aside f rom the very 25 short statement that a transfer was not possible at this Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9685 O
U 1 time?
2 A No.
3 0 Okay.
4 DeWald writes -- did you see Simile's answer before 5 DeWald added his?
6 A No. It was all on the one, like you see it.
7 0 It says -- DeWald says it was scheduled to be completed 8 the 1st of August and that essentially bringing on a new 9 inspector would be impractical at this time.
10 Did DeWald elaborate on that response, aside from 11 what he said in the reply to your memo?
12 A No. I just received the memo as my answer.
13 0 And did you continue to seek a transfer out of the cable 14 pan program af ter that second memo was responded to?
15 A Yes, I did.
16 Q Now, you wrote then your May 17, '85, memo, again asking 17 for a transfer.
18 Here you state somewhat -- you summarize your 19 concern about the use of the Form 7's that you've 20 testified to?
21 A Yes.
22 0 All right.
23 DeWald signs this response and says, " Transfer from 24 walkdown is granted. Supplement has been revised to 25 include your concerns," and that's dated some weeks Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9686 O
1 after. It's dated 5/31/85.
2 Well, af ter you wrote your 5/17/85 memo to 3 supervision -- DeWald, Simile, Seltmann and Schrimer --
4 what happened then?
5 A That's when we had some more meetings with Tony and some 6 S & L people, and they finally did incorporate the ideas 7 that we wanted in the procedures for this walkdown so 8 that the person who reviewed that document was actually 9 stating that he accepted that hanger.
10 0 So af ter repeatedly bringing these problems to their 11 attention and seeking transfers out of the program when 12 they didn't correct the problem, ultimately they made 13 the changes to the procedure in the form that you had 14 suggested?
15 A That is correct.
l 16 0 All right.
s 17 Now, I show you a series of documents that were 18 attachments to Mr. Simile's testimony. They appear to 19 be Attachment 3 to simile's testimony. These are also i
20 in evidence.
l 21 First is a CECO letter. It transmits a series of 22 -- a document entitled " System Control Pan Hanger 23 Inspection," and it appears to be Revision 4, dated June i
24 26, 1985.
/ 25 (Indicating.)
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
i Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262 l
, ,-,,--,-,-----,,n n ,- r . - - - - nr. n, ,- -,,----,..,,,----,n-,-e.. .----,-,,-----n,----. . - - - , - - - - - - - - -
9687 O 1 Have you ever seen those documents, the cover 2 letter and the attached procedure?
?. A Yes, I hava.
4 Q And when did you see those?
5 Did you see those at the time they were issued?
6 A I believe I was already out when this one came out, this 7 last revision here. I was out of the cable pan 8 walkdown.
9 But I've seen them since then.
10 0 All right, sir.
11 Well, when did you leave the cable pan walkdown?
12 A I honestly don't remember the date.
O 13 0 Well, DeWald signs this Read and Reply Memo that you 14 wrote on the 17th of May -- he signs it on the 31st of 1S May.
16 Had you already been transferred out by the time 17 DeWald responded?
18 A It had to be right around that weekend, right around the
. 19 first part of June.
l 20 0 Okay.
21 And then subsequent to your transfer, the Revision
, 22 4 to the walkdown procedure was promulgated, reflected l
23 in the document I've just shown you.
24 Now, let me show you the configuration form that 25 was attached to that procedure and the instruction sheet Sonntaa Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9688 O 1 that goes along with it.
2 (Indicating.)
3 Aside f rom the typewritten and handwritten comments 4 on the form, is this a Form 7 that's used pursuant to 5 the configuration procedure?
6 A Yes, it is.
7 Q Now, it was this form that was being adopted -- adapted, 8 rather, for use in the cable pan walkdown program?
9 A Yes, it was.
10 0 All right.
11 Now, there's language that appears in the remarks 12 section here.
O 13 Was that language contained in the revisions of the 14 form that you were using when you were performing work 15 under the cable pan walkdown program?
16 A No. Like I said, the first 100 or so we did, there was 17 nothing down there.
18 (Indicating.)
19 Q Nothing in the remarks section?
20 A Nothing in the remarks section.
21 Q All right.
22 You signed, when you completed the Rev. O drawing 23 review, under the left-hand QC Inspector box; is that 24 right?
25 A That's right.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. l Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9689 O 1 And then you'd leave open the Level II review box, which Q
2 appears to the right at the bottom of the form?
3 A That's correct.
4 0 That would be completed by some other inspector later 5 after the Rev. A and Rev. O drawings were compared?
6 A Yes, they would.
7 0 Okay.
8 For a time, as you testified, you would hold back 9 the Form 7 's so that, I take it, you could review the 10 Rev. A-Rev. O drawings yourself and then obtain the 11 Level II review?
12 A No.
() 13 I held back the Form 7 's that I had until they 14 changed the procedure or I would have threw them all in 15 the garbage.
16 Q All right, sir, okay.
17 So you held them back in order to get the 18 clarification of the procedure to explicitly note that l 19 you were not approving the final configuration of these 20 hangers?
21 A That's correct.
22 O Now, have you ever seen -- when you were under the 23 walkdown program, were there any notes in the remarks 24 section of the form?
25 A Not that I can remember.
S_onntaa Re. porting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9690 1 Q Okay.
1 2 So the notations that appear in the version that's 3 Revision 4 that was transmitted June 27th, af ter you 4 lef t the program -- those are notes that you didn' t --
5 that were not contained in the Form 7's that you used 6 when you did the walkdown?
7 A Most of it is not, right.
8 This one part on the first sentence was probably 9 there, " CECO NCR's 708 and 709. Systems control pan 10 hanger inspection LKC NCR 3949."
11 0 That part was contained, but the rest of the note was 12 not?
13 A Right.
14 Q And the rest of the note in substance makes clear what 15 the significance of the QC Inspector's signature is on 16 the Form 7; is that right?
i 17 A That's correct.
I 18 Q Clearly stating that with that note, the inspector is l
19 not signing off on the final configuration of the 20 hanger?
! 21 A That's correct.
22 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I take it before when you 23 said that you were concerned about getting in deep l 24 enough, that you were worried that sometime you might be 25 accused of falsifying records; is that so?
r~3 V
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60f34 (312) 23 2-ti 2f. 2
9691 0 1 THE WITNESS: That's exactly it.
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN: All right.
3 BY MR. GUILD:
4 Q Now, af ter the series of memos that you wrote requesting 5 repeatedly a transf er out of the program back to your 6 normal weld and configuration inspection, did you have 7 occasion to -- did Mr. Simile have occasion to come to 8 you and discuss the subject of your transfer?
- 9 A Yes, he did, the day he transferred me.
10 0 All right.
11 And that was about the 1st of June?
12 A Somewhere around June lat.
13 Q Now, what were your circumstances at the time, aside 14 from your desire to be transferred because of the 15 concerns you had about the cable pan walkdown program?
( 16 Did you make known to Mr. Simile any personal 17 circumstances that were of concern to you at the time?
l 18 A Not until af ter he told me where I was going.
1 19 0 All right.
20 What did Mr. Simile say to you when he informed you l
l 21 of your tranrfer?
l 22 A He informed me that I would be going on second shif t.
23 Q Did simile say to you words to the effect that, "You're 24 going to get a transfer, and you won't like where you' re 25 going"?
Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
I Geneva, Illinois 60134 l
(312) 232-0262
9692 O 1 A Yes.
2 Q And that was to second shif t?
3 A Yes, it was.
4 Q And why was second shif t a place that you didn't want to 5 go?
6 A Well, at the time when the transf er came down, I had 7 been trying to help my mother --
8 Q All right.
9 A -- and --
10 0 Was your mother ill at the time?
11 A Oh, yes, my mother was ill, dying of cancer.
12 0 All right.
O 13 A Sunday was my only day off, really, so I had to spend 14 the day at my mother's on Sundays.
15 Q Now, did you make that f act known to Mr. Simile?
16 A Yes, I did.
17 0 And nonetheless, he assigned you to night shift, which 18 would preclude you from being home with your mother?
19 A It wouldn't help. It wouldn' t stop me, but it wouldn' t I
20 help.
21 Q And he knew you wouldn't like the transfer; you wouldn't l 22 like where you were going?
23 A That is definite.
24 0 All right, sir.
/ 25 So you got the transf er you sought finally, Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
l 1
9693 O 1 although it was to the night shift and that was 2 obviously not what you were seeking at the time; right?
3 A That is correct.
4 Q And after you got the transfer to the night shift, you 5 learned later that they had finally, af ter you were 6 transferred off the cable pan walkdown program, made the 7 revisions to the procedure on the Form 7 to make the 8 notations reflecting the concerns that you had been 9 expressing over this period of time?
4 10 A On cr about that time, yes.
l 11 MR. GUILD: Mr. Chairman, it's about 5:00 12 o' clock. I suggest it would be a good break point.
J 13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. So we'll recess, 14 then, until Tuesday at 2:00 o E clock, and hopefully we'll 15 be able to continue all week.
16 MR. MILLER: Your Honor, if the Board 17 receives some information that indicates that we will 18 not be meeting on Thursday and Friday, Mr. Guild and I 19 have agreed that Mr. O'Connor would appear on that date 20 certain and that -- just that if it's going to be 21 rescheduled, the earlier we know about it, the better.
22 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Oh, okay. So I'll contact 23 -- I guess it's easier to get you, Mr. Miller, than to 24 find Mr. Guild here, since he's here temporarily.
25 So I'll try to get word to you, and you can get Sonntac Reporting Service, Ltd.
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9694 O 1 word to him.
2 MR. MILLER: Thank you.
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay, fine. So we're 4 recessed, and we'll see you at 2:00 o' clock on Tuesday.
5 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Oh, and by the way, on the 7 record, please don' t discuss your testimony with anyone.
8 THE WITNESS: All right.
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN: We'll ask you that at the 10 conclusion of your testimony, also, but we'd like you 11 not to discuss it with anybody.
q 12 By the way, I take it you have no problem with s> '
coming here, as far as your employer is concerned; is 13 14 that right?
15 THE WITNESS: No, sir.
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay.
17 (WHEREUPON, at the hour of 5:00 P. M., the 18 hearing of the above-entitled matter was 19 continued to the 5th day of August, at 20 the hour of 2:00 o' clock P. M.)
! 21 22 23 24 25 i (:)
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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NO PAGE NUMBER CERTIFICATE OF OFFICIAL REPORTER This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY CO?O1ISSION in the matter of:
NAME OF PROCEEDING: BRAIDWOOD STATION UNITS 1 62 COMMONWEALTil EDISON COMPANY (EVIDENTIARY HEARING)
DOCKET NO.: 50-456/457-OL PLACE: JOLIET, ILLINOIS DATE: THURSDAY, JULY 31, 1986 were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
(sigt) SW (TYPED) f Nancy J. Ilopp Official Reporter Reporter's Affiliation