ML20206H471
| ML20206H471 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Braidwood  |
| Issue date: | 06/20/1986 |
| From: | Atomic Safety and Licensing Board Panel |
| To: | |
| References | |
| CON-#286-776, CON-#386-776 OL, NUDOCS 8606260097 | |
| Download: ML20206H471 (139) | |
Text
- - -- - - - - - - -
OllG NAL CO U1NnEu STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION IN THEMATTER OF: DOCKET NO:
BRAIDWOOD STATION 50-456/457-OL UNITS 1 & 2 COMMONWEALTH EDISON COMPANY (EVIDENTIARY HEARING) lCO t.OCATION: JOLIET, ILLIN0IS PAGES: 5139-5276 DATE: FRIDAY, JUNE 20. 1986 1
0I g dt A E-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
c0 G606060097 G60n,70 u4 E Y ce.ee PDR Wasligw .C.20001 ADOCH C500 6 (aggg NATIONWIDE COVERACE k
~ 5139
.O 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3 BEFORE THE ATOMIC SAFETY AND LICENSING BOARD 4
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _x 5 :
In the Matter of: :
6 : Docket No. 50-456 OL D COMMONWEALTH EDISON COMPANY -
- 0-457 OL 7 :
(Braidwood Station, Units 1 :
8 and 2) :-
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _X 9 ,
10 College of St. Francis 500 North Wilcox Street 11 Joliet, Illinois 60435 12 Friday, June 20, 1986.
13 The hearing in the above-entitled matter reconvened 14 at 8:10 A. M.
15 16 BEFORE: .
17 JUDGE HERBERT GROSSMAN, Chairman Atomic Safety and Licensing Board 18 U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission Washington, D. C.
JUDGE RICHARD F. COLE, Member, 20 Atomic Safety and Licensing Board U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission 21 Washington, D. C.
22 JUDGE A. DIXON CALLIHAN, Membe r, Atomic Safety and Licensing Board 23 U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission Washington, D. C.
24 APPEARANCES:
( On behalf of the Applicant: ,
i l
! Sonntag Reporting Se rvice, Ltd.i
[' Geneva, Illinois o0134 (312) 232-0262 t- ___ _ __ _ __ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ __ _ __ _
5140 n
v 1
MICHAEL I. MILLER, ESQ. -
2 JOSEPH GALLO, ESQ.
ELENA Z. KEZELIS, ESQ.
3 Isham, Lincoln & Beale
- Three First National Plaza 4 Chicago, Illinois 60602 5 On behalf cf the Nuclear Regulatory Commission Staff:
6 ELAINE I. CHAN, ESQ.
7 GREGORY ALAN BERRY, ESQ.
U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission 8 7335 Old Georgetown Road Bethesda, Maryland 20014 9
On behalf of the Intervenors:
10 ROBERT GUILD, ESQ.
11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 L
22 23 24 5
IC) l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262 t _ _ .
5141.
O 1 EXHIBIT INDEX Marked Received 2 Applicant's Exhibit No. 42 5146 5256 3
4 WITNESS INDEX 5 TESTIMONY OF DANNY RAY HOLLEY (Continued) 6 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) 7 BY MS. KEZELIS 5142 8 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. GUILD 5213 9
CROSS EXAMINATION 10 BY MS. CHAN: 5248 11 REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. KEZELIS: 5256 12 BOARD EXAMINATION O 13 BY JUDGE GROSSMAN: 5266 14 RECROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. GUILD: 5267
. 15 RECROSS EXAMINATION 16 BY MS. CHAN: 5274 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262 L . . . . . ... . .._ . _ _ _ . . . . . _ . . ._ . .
j 5142 I
i JUDGE GROSSMAN: The hearing is reconvened.
2 This is the 25th day of hearing. We adjourned yesterday 3 with Miss Kezelis examining, and she'll continue now. ,
4 You may proceed, Miss Kezelis.
5 MS. KEZELIS: Thank you, Judge Grossman.
6 Good morning, Mr. Holley.
7 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN: You remain under oath.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
10 DIRECT EXAMINATION 11 (Continued) 12 BY MS. KEZELIS: ,
13 0 During the course of testimony yesterday, the term 14 " backlog" came up several times.
15 How do you define the term " backlog" as you used it 16 yesterday?
17 A A number of inspections that have been piling up that 18 haven't been accomplished yet.
19 Q All right.
20 Do you have an understanding as to whether at 21 Comstock " backlog" is defined as inspections outstanding 22 more than 30 days after completion of an installation?
23 A I believe that's the way they -- they handle it.
24 Q All right.
25 And is that-your understanding as well? ,
Sonntag Reporting Se rvice, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262 t - _ _ . . .. . . . . . _ . . _ _ . _ _ . ~. ._ ._. _
5143 O
1 A Yes.
2 Q All right.
3 I'll represent for you that Mr. DeWald became a QC
~
4 Manager for Comstock at Braidwood in August of 1983.
5 Does that sound about right to you?
6 A That's about right, yeah.
7 Q Okay.
8 And I will represent to you that Mr. DeWald has 9 testified in this proceeding that when he took that 10 position, a backlog of approximately 14,000 inspections 11 had occurred.
12 Does that sound about right to you?
13 A I wouldn't know the number.
14 0 Okay.
15 Do you recall that a large number of inspections 16 had occurred --
17 A Yes.
18 Q -- at that time?
19 A Yes.
20 Q All right.
21 And do you recall that efforts were made to reduce 22 that backlog?
23 A Yes. There's an ongoing effort to reduce it.
24 Q All right.
25 Let me refer you now to the time period of the fall Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
~. ueneva, 1111nois eviae (312) 232-0262
5144 O
1 of 1983.
2 Do you recall at that time that efforts were 3 initiated to reduce that backlog?
4 For example, do you recall that the number of your-5 co-workers employed by Comstock increased?
6 A Yes.
7 Q All right.
8 You testified yesterday that you are employed by 9 BESTCO but have been dispatched to Newberg; is that 10 , correct?
11 A That's right.
12 Q And you've been working for Newberg, in effect, since 13 December of 1985; is that correct?
14 A Yes.
15 0 Okay. .
16 When you said yesterday and mentioned again today 17 that there are' always efforts to reduce the backlog, are 18 you referring to any personal knowledge you have now 19 with respect to Comstock work?
20 A Since I've left Comstock, I don't know how they're 21 handling it.
22 Q All right.
23 Would it be fair to say, then, that you don't have 24 any knowledge of the status of work at Comstock 25 currently?
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262 j
7 _
~
5145 s
F 1 A~ That's correct.
2 0 Okay.
3 In connection with the efforts to reduce the backlog after 1983 when Mr. DeWald became a QC Manager, 4
i 5 do you recall that you were one of the QC Inspectors who 6 was assigned to assist in the reduction.of that backlog?
^
7 A Yer, I was.
8 Q All right.
9 And who were you assigned to that profect by, if 10 you recall?
11 A I couldn't recall; Mr. Simile or -- or Mr. DeWald.
12 Q All right.
13 Do you. recall tha't Mr. Worthington and Mr. Seltmann 14 had some involvement in supervising your work, together 15 wit.h other QC Inspectors, in reducing the backlog in the 16 s umme r of ' 1984?
17 A Yes. There was a -- a special project. we had to get 18 done that Mr. Seltmann was involved in and Mr. ;
1 19 Worthington.
20 Q All right. !
21 And in order to further refresh your recollection, 22 do you recall that . it was sometime after the April, 23 1984, salary'structur.e change?
24 A I't probably was, yes.'
- 25 Q All right.
Sonntag Reporting' Service, Ltd. _
ueneva, 1111nois eviae f (312) 232-0262
...7....
5146 i
O 1 And that salary structure change was such that in 2 order to increase your salary, you needed to attain an 3 additional certification or certifications.
4 Do you recall that?
5 A Yes, uh-huh.
6 Q Okay.
7 Do you recall, Mr. Holley, being asked by Mr.
8 Seltmann or Mr. Worthington in August of 1984, together 9 with other QC Inspectors, to give up your on-the-job 10 training for additional certifications in order to 11 complete the backlog of inspections?
12 A Yes.
13 Q All right.
14 And do you recall receiving a memo stating words to 15 that effect?
16 A Yes, from Mr. Seltmann.
17 MS. KEZELIS: All right.
18 I'd like to have this marked as Applicant's next 19 exhibit. I believe that will be 42.
20 (The document was thereupon marked 21 Applicant's Exhibit No. 42 for 22 identification as of June 20, 1986.)
23 BY MS. KEZELIS:
24 Q Mr. Holley, I've handed you what's been marked as 25 Applicant's Exhibit No. 42, and it is a memorandum on Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5147 O
1 Comstock letterhead to " backlog weld and configuration 2 inspectors," dated August 24, 1984, from Mr. Worthington 3 and Mr. Seltmann.
4 Is that the memo that you recall being --
5 A Yes, ma'am.
6 Q -- sent to you as well as other QC Inspectors?
D 7 A Yes, ma'am.
8 Q All right.
9 Directing your attention to the first paragraph of 10 that memorandum, sir, there is a statement in the second 11 and third line -- and I'm going to quote directly - "We 12 are asking that you give up OJT between now and
( 13 September 15, 1984, so that we can complete the 14 backlog."
15 Do you see that statement there?
D 16 A Yes.
17 .0 All right.
18 Were you asked to give up any on-the-job training 19 you might have had or might have been scheduled to 20 participate in in order to assist in the completion of l
21 the backlog at that time? '
j C
22 A Yes, ma'am.
23 Q All right.
24 And do you recall whether, in fact, this project of L
25 completion of the backlog of inspections was, in fact, Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. ,
- c. veneva, AAAinvis ovia, (312) 232-0262
5148 1 completed in September of 1984?
2 A To the best of my knowledge, yes.
3 Q All right.
4 I'll represent to you that Mr. DeWald has testified 5 in this procee6ing that the backlog of inspections was 6 completed, in fact, in September of 1984.
7 Do you have any reason to disagree with that 8 statement?
9 A No.
10 0 All right.
11 I realize that some of the events that I'm asking 12 about and other parties will ask you about today took
( 13 place some time ago. If you don't recall anything 14 specifically, please tell me. I don't want you to guess 15 or speculate.
16 During the course of your testimony yesterday, Mr.
17 Holley, you made a statement to the effect that there is 18 always a backlog.
19 Do you recall making a statement along those lines?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Okay.
22 Having reviewed this document, does that refresh 23 your recollection as to when a backlog at Comstock was 24 completed?
~
25 A Yes.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5149 O
1 Q All right.
2 And what is your recollection now?
3 A As to this certain backlog?
4 Q Yes, sir.
5 A What do you want me to --
6 0 I'm just asking you to tell me whether you are aware of 7 any backlog at Comstock other than the one you've just 8 testified about that was completed in September of 1984, 9 to the best of your recollection.
10 A From my understanding, this was one of the backlogs, and 11 it was completed September the 15th or on or about that 12 date.
13 I can't remember if there was any more or not.
14 Q You can't remember if there were any backlogs --
15 A No.
16 0 -- thereafter or not?
17 Okay.
18 Do you recall a document review program that was 19 ongoing?
20 A Yes, there was.
21 Q That was completed sometime thereafter, wasn't it, to 22 the best of your recollection?
23 A I don't know if it was ever completed.
24 Q You don't have any personal knowledge of the document
(~T 25 review program?
U Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
ueneva, Illinois .oviae (312) 232-0262
5150 O
1 A No.
2 Q Okay.
3 In connection with your testimony yesterday that 4 there was always a backlog and that they -- and you were 5 referring to Comstock management -- were always wanting 6 you to do more inspections -- do you recall that --
O 7 A Yes.
8 Q -- testimony yesterday?
9 Okay.
10 When you said they were always wanting you to do i
11 more inspections, what did you mean, sir?
12 A They always wanted us to do more, just like anybody, you O~- 13 know -- any job, any supervisor would, you know. They 14 want to get the most out of the people.
15 Q There was no -- there were no statements made to you or 16 in your presence, were there, to the effect that, "If 17 you're completing 10 a day, we want you to do 15 a day,"
18 "If you're completing 15, we want you to do 25," or 19 anything along those lines?
20 A No, not along those lines.
21 Q All right.
22 With respect to your statement that .they were 23 always wanting you to do more, were you referring to 24 anything other than Comstock management's representation 25 to you that they wanted a day's work for a day's pay?
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
~
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262 -
5151 l
(
i l A No, 2 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Miss Kezelis, please try not 3 to lead the witness too much.
4 MS. KEZELIS: That's fine, that's fine.
5 BY MS. KEZELIS:
6 Q Mr. Holley, let me direct your attention again to what's 7 been marked as Exhibit 42, which you have in front of 8 you.
9 There is a reference in that memorandum to a 10 meeting that had taken place.
11 Do you recall the meeting described there?
12 A Yes.
13 Q All right.
14 Can you tell us what was said to you at that 15 meeting, if you recall?
16 A Mr. Seltmann and Mr. Worthington called a group of us 17 together and said that we do have to get this backlog 18 done; it could mean the livelihood of Comstock at 19 Braidwood if we didn't get it completed.
20 He also asked us to give a concerted effort to do 21 our best at it.
- s. .
22 Q All right.
23 What did you understand Mr. Seltmann to mean when 24 he said that the livelihood of Comstock at Braidwood was 25 involved?
, Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
i
~
Geneva, Illinois eula4 (312) 232-0262
5152 i
I
()
1 A It was implied that Comstock might lose their contract, 2 whatever it would be, at -- at the Braidwood site.
3 Q Do you recall anything else Mr. Seltmann said about the s
4 livelihood of Comstock at Braidwood at that meeting?
5 A .No. That was about it.
6 Q All right.
7 How did you -- was that the only time that you had 8 heard any reference to the livelihood of Comstock at 9 Braidwood?
10 A Yes, other than just talk among other inspectors.
11 Q Okay.
12 Did you ask Mr. Seltmann any questions about what C
13 he meant when he made that statement?
14 A If I did, I don't remember.
15 Q Okay.
16 Did you talk to any other member of Comstock 17 management about the statement Mr. Seltmann had made at 18 that meeting?
19 A Not that I remember, no.
20 Q Do you recall whether you had already been performing 21 backlog inspections at the time of this meeting?
)
22 A Yes.
23 Q You had been, all right.
24 And after this meeting, you either resumed or 25 continued performing those inspections; is that right?
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5153 i O
1 A Yes.
2 Q Did Mr. Seltmann.'s statement have any effect on the 3 manner in which you conducted your inspections?
4 A No; just that we concentrated our areas on this certain 5 backlog that they had.
6 Q Did you have an opportunity to observe your fellow QC 7 Inspectors working on this project?
8 A Yes. We worked together.
9 Q All right.
10 Did you have an opportunity to observe whether your 11 fellow inspectors changed the manner in which they were 12 performing their inspections --
( 13 A No.
14 0 -- after this meeting?
15 A I don't think they would change. They would, you know 16 -- just like me, they would -- all of our efforts were 17 channeled towards this one backlog.
18 Q All right.
i 19 And when you say that all of your efforts were 20 channeled towards this one backlog, could you explain 21 what you mean by that?
22 A Well, we used to also do other inspections besides the 23 backlog, you know. We would do an in-process 24 inspection, or we might -- if we were certified in a 25 diffe rent area, you know, if the need arose, we would i
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. _
ueneva, 1111nols oviae I (312) 232-0262 l
+ . , . . . - . . . . - , .-e- ---
ao ~ _ . . .e . .-
L 5154 1 help inspection in another area.
2 During this time, all of our efforts were confined 3 just to the welding configuration area.
C 4 Q Okay.
5 Did Mr. Seltmann give you any reason to understand 6 that any of you or you in particular would be threatened V 7 or punished or reprimanded in any respect if the backlog 8 were not completed --
9 A No.
10 0 -- by mid September?
11 A No.
12 Q All right.
( 13 Did Mr. Seltmann lead you to feel that he was 14 urging you in any respect to overlook construction 15 defects --
D 16 A No.
17 Q -- or to violate procedures?
18 A No.
~
19 Q All right.
20 Mr. Holley, let me turn now to another topic, and 21 that is the topic of the documentation of 1,000 or more D
22 welds on a single inspection report by Mr. DeWald.
23 Do you have any personal knowledge with respect to 24 that topic, sir?
25 A Yes, ma'am.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
,, Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
.-.~... _. .-.
5155 f
(
1 Q All right.
2 Will you describe for us what your knowledge is 3 regarding that topic?
s 4 A There were a couple -- maybe several -- inspection 5 reports, Form 19's, weld inspection reports, that had 6 been in the vault that had been inspected by Mr. DeWald 7 in particular, welds that he had inspected.
8 The report covered a whole room of supports, and 9 there was 1,000 welds plus on it, and he had signed it 10 off all in one day.
11 Q Does that complete your answer?
12 A I suppose so, yes.
() 13 Q Mr. Holley, how did you -- first of all, you saw these 14 reports; is that correct?
15 A Yes.
16 Q All right.
17 Do you recall if there was more than one?
18 A Ye's.
19 Q Do you recall how many there were?
20 A No.
21 Q Okay.
9 22 How did it come to be that you saw them?
23 A When we do a configuration' inspection, we should -- and 24 we do -- verify that the welding inspection on that l 25 particular support had been. completed. .
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262 :
l
=?-- :-. ._ - ;_ = - - - - -
5156 O
1 So we would go to the QC vault and ask for the weld 2 inspection checklist and verify that it has been done 3 before we can complete our configuration inspection.
4 Q And do you recall when it was that you came upon this 5 report or these reports --
6 A No.
0 7 Q -- of Mr. DeWald's?
8 Can you recall roughly what year it was that you 9 might have come across these reports?
10 A Well, it was a couple of times; '82, '83, you know.
11 There's several -- several hangers involved, so 12 there's several times that I and the other inspectors
() 13 had been to the vault to look for the records.
14 0 You believe you came across these documents in 1982 and 15 1983; is that correct?
16 A Maybe even '84.
17 Q Okay.
18 Do you recall whether it was --
19 A It was over a period of time.
20 Q Do you recall whether it was before or af ter Mr. DeWald 21 became QC Manager?
22 A Before and after.
23 Q All right.
24 What, if anything, did you do with thcae documents?
25 A Just referred to them.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
~
Geneva, Illinois 60134 E (312) 232-0262
. . . _ _ . . ~ .._. _ _ . . _ . . . . ._
5157 O
1 Q All right.
2 A We can't -- can't do nothing to them if it's a /aulted 3 record, you know. We just look at them.
s.
4 0 Okay.
5 Do you recall whether you said anything to anybody 6 about those documents?
7 A Oh, I'm sure I did. Everybody talked about -- about 8 those records and about other records, too.
9 Q Okay.
10 Do you recall whether you ever talked to Mr. DeWald 11 about those documents?
12 A No.
w 13 Q You never did?
14 A No.
15 Q All right.
16 Did you ever hear Mr. DeWald refer to those 17 documents? -
18 A No.
19 Q Did you ever hear Mr. DeWald say, "If I can do 1,000 or 20 more, so can you," or words to that effect?
21 A Not that I can recall, no.
~
22 Q Do you have any understanding as to whether or not Mr.
23 DeWald, in fact, completed the inspection of 1,000 or 24 more welds on a single day?
O 25 A The way the documentation read, that's -- that's all I Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
ueneva, AAAlnois ouAas (312) 232-0262
5158 O
1 could go by.
2 Q All right.
3 A They were all signed off in one day. That's --
s 4 Q Do you have an understanding as to -- first of all, do 5 you recall when those documents were dated or what the 6 dates of those documents were?
C 7 A '80 or '81. I'm --
8 0 okay.
9 A I can't be sure.
10 Q All right.
11 Did you have an understanding as to how inspections 12 were performed in that time period?
(
13 A No. I wasn't -- I wasn't here.
14 Q All right.
15 When you began in 1982, how did you document your 16 inspections?
17 A Welding inspections?
18 Q Yes, sir.
19 A We would do our inspection, and I believe we started 20 just documenting one support on one checklist.
21 Q All right.
22 Will you state for us, please, what you mean by a 23 " support"?
24 Would you describe what that. consists of?
25 A A support is what holds up a conduit or a cable tray; l
l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5159 O
1 just one support.
2 Q All right.
3 And how many welds might one support have?
9 4 A As little as two or as many as 200, depending on the 5 complexity of it.
6 Q Okay. .
7 Do you recall the specific number of welds 8 documented on any of those reports of Mr. DeWald's?
9 A No, I don't.
10 0 Okay.
11 Do you recall the drawing numbers or any other 12 identifying features of those reports?
( 13 A On one particular one I do, yes, because I did a lot of 14 work in that area.
15 0 All right.
16 A It would be 20E-1-3051H, I believe.
17 Q All right.
18 And you recall that it was Drawing No. 3051 because 19 you did a lot of work in that area?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Mr. Holley, I'm going to show you what's been previously 22 marked and admitted into evidence as Intervenors' 23 Exhibit No. 18, and I'm going to ask you to take a look 24 at this set ef documents briefly.
rm 25 Additionally, I'll ask you to pay particular U
Sonntag Reporting Se rvice, Ltd.
ueneva, A111nois oviae (312) 232-0262
5160 O
1 attention to the eighth page in that series of 2 documents.
3 (Indicating.)
4 I've got it flipped open there, but I'll ask you to 5 just take a look at that set of documents for a moment, 6 sir.
7 MR. GUILD: Ms. Kezelis,'what page of the 8 exhibit are you referring the witness to?
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN: There are so many pages here 10 that --
11 MS. KEZELIS: I'm sorry. I counted them, and 12 I thought I had it right.
13 lit's the eighth page in that series of documents.
~
14~ MR. GUILD: Perhaps if you could just 15 identify what you're looking at for the record.
16 MS. KEZELIS: The top has several stamps on 17 it: "For information only. This is a reconstituted 18 record. Comstock Engineering QC Department."
19 It's the manual shielded metal arc welding and stud 20 welding inspection checklist.
21 MR. GUILD: All right. Thank you.
22 MS. KEZELIS: Do you have that, Mr. Guild?
23 MR. GUILD: Yes, I do.
24 MS. KEZELIS: All right.
D 25 Please take a look at it, Mr. Holley.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. l Geneva, Illinois 60134 l (312) 232-0262
5161
() .
1 BY MS. KEZELIS:
2 Q Mr. Holley, have you had an opportunity to examine that 3 document?
4 A Yes, yes.
5 0 Will you state for the record what the drawing number is 6 for that inspection checklist?
7 A 3051H.
8 Q Is that the drawing number that you had referred to just 9 a moment ago?
10 A No.
11 Q All right.
12 A Ko, it's not.
13 0 It's not.
14 How can you tell that it's not?
15 A It just says "3051H." I believe it's 1-3051H, is what I 16 said.
17 0 All right.
18 Will you take a look through the next document or 19 two and determine if there is some way to --
20 A This is sort of indeterminate.
21 We would take it as "O," this one.
~
22 (Indicating.)
23 MR. GUILD: Mr. Holley, could I ask you to 24 keep your voice up, please, so that the rest of us --
G 25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. .
~. veneva, 1111nois oviae (312) 232-0262
5162 1 BY MS.,KEZELIS:
2 0 In the middle of that eighth page of that document, Mr.
3 Holley, there is a space for the location identification s
4 information.
5 (Indicating.)
6 A Uh-huh.
7 Q Is the location reflected on this document different 8 than the location you had in mind?
9 A Yes --
10 0 All right.
11 A -- it is.
12 MR. GUILD: Counsel, if I could, there's a 13 following page in the exhibit -- let me show you --
14 where they show a different number.
15 (Indicating.)
16 MS. KEZELIS: Yes. I believe the witness has 17 already testified about the "0" as opposed to a "1."
18 BY MS. KEZELIS:
19 Q Mr. Holley, the page immediately following --
20 A I believe I saw that one further on.
21 It's this one here.
O 22 (Indicating.)
23 Q All right.
24 About six or seven pages later, there is another --
O
{} 25 A It's the last page.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. !
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5163 O
1 0 -- reference to the drawing number, all right.
2 And that drawing number incorporates a "0"; is that 3 correct?
4 A Yes.
5 Q The drawing that you had referred to had a "1" preceding 6 the "3051"; is that correct?
7 A Yes.
8 Q All right.
9 And you testified just now that the reason why you 10 were very confident with the drawing number of 3051 is 11 because you had done a fair amount of work in that area; 12 is that correct?
O 13 A Yes.
14 Q All right.
15 Mr. Holley, do you recall that this topic came up 16 during the course of your deposition?
17 A Yes, the one in January, I believe it was.
18 JUDGE COLE: Mr. Holley, I can't hear you.
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, the one in the January 20 deposition.
21 JUDGE CALLIHAN: Is the mike turned on?
6 22 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I'm going to turn it up.
23 You can continue.
24 BY MS. KEZELIS:
25 Q And do you recall that you were asked for any Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
ueneva, Illinois cuide (312) 232-0262 L _ -_ _ - ___ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ - _ _ . . . _ _ _ _ -- - - - - . _ _ _ _ _ -
5164 1 identifying features of the inspection report that you 2 had testified about during the course of your 3 deposition?
4 A Yes.
5 Q All right.
6 Do you recall what drawing number it was that you 7 identified as being --
8 A I believe it was the same one: 1-3 051H .
9 MS. KEZELIS: May I have a moment?
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Sure.
11 MS. KEZELIS: Thank you.
12 MR. GUILD: Try Page 121.
13 MS. KEZELIS: Thank you.
14 BY MS. KEZELIS:
15 Q Mr. Holley, I'll state for the record that during the
~
16 course of your deposition in January of 1986, you 17 testified that the drawing number involved had been 18 1-3061.
19 I'm a little confused because today you seem to be 20 relatively confident that the drawing number, in fact, 21 is 3051.
9 22 Can you clear this up for us?
23 A The difference between the 51 and the 61 is the 24 elevation of the building.
h 25 0 All right.
}
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262 .
-_L _ .. - - - _ - . .- - - _ - - _ - - - - -- . . . - - - - - . - . - -
5165
(
1 A 51'I believe would be on the -- the 426 area, and 61 2 would be the 439 or 451 area.
3 Q All right.
s 4 And what would --
5 A You -- ,
6 Q I'm sorry.
7 A Go ahead.
8 Q Did that complete your answer?
9 A Yes.
10 Q What would 3052 refer to, for example?
11 A The same elevation as 51, but just a -- just a different 12 area that adjoins the 51.
( 13 Q All right.
14 I'll represent to you that there has been some 15 testimony about this topic in this proceeding. I'll 16 also represent that we've been' looking pretty hard for 17 this document or set of documents and haven't been able 18 to locate any such documentation.
19 Let me now show you what has been.previously marked 20 as Intervenors' Exhibit 19 and ask you if perhaps this 21 might be the inspection report that you believe you had i
22 seen.
23 MR. GUILD: Mr. Chairman, before counsel goes 24 forward with that line of questioning, I would state 25 that she represented what he said in the deposition.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. _
ueneva, 1A11 avis oviae (312) 232-0262
5166 O
1 Indeed, the transcript reflects the 61 number.
2 I don't think that necessarily establishes that 3 that's what he said at the deposition. He may well have
?
4 stated "51" and it just was transcribed differently.
5 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, if that's so, you 6 should follow up.
7 MS. KEZELIS: All right.
8 BY MS. KEZELIS: .
9 Q Mr. Holley, do you -- all right.
10 Do you recall whether or not at your deposition, 11 when this topic came up, you intended to say "3061"?
12 JUDGE GROSSMAN: First, do you recall whether O. 13 you said "3061" at your deposition?
14 THE WITNESS: It could have been "61" or 15 "51." I --
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN: So you just don't recall 17 which one you said?
18 THE WITNESS: No, sir, no, sir.
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN: D'o you have any opinion now 20 as to what you should have said at that point?
21 THE WITNESS: It -- in all honesty, it could 22 be either one.
23 JUDGE GROSSMAN: It could be either one?
24 THE WITNESS: Yes, it could be either one.
25 I'm sorry.
Sonntag Reporting Serv' ice, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5167 1 MS. KEZELIS: That's quite all right.
2 BY MS. KEZELIS:
3 Q Could it be 3052?
4 A I believe it had the "1" at the end, if -- if I remembe r 5 what I said in January.
6 Q All right. I'm not asking you now to remember what you 7 said in January.
8 I'm asking you to think back to when you saw those 9 documents or that document and ask you what you recall 10 it to be.
11 A It -- it could be 52 because of the area, you know.
12 Like I said, there's a couple that I did see; and 13 that one that I said, either 51 or 61, was one in 14 particular that I -- that I had had some work in.
15 Q Bad you done some work in the area of 3052?
16 A Yes, I have.
17 Q Now, let me show you what's been marked as Intervenors' 18 Exhibit No. 19 for identification. It's a two-page 19 document. I'll ask you to take a look at that, Mr.
20 Holley.
21 (Indicating.)
Q 22 A Okay.
23 I've seen this before.
24 Q You've seen this document before?
25 A Yes.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
ueneva, 1111nois oviae (312) 232-0262
5168 b,-
1 Q All right.
2 Is it the document that you had in mind when you 3 referred to 1,000 or more welds --
4 A No.
5 Q -- documented on one report by Mr. DeWald?
6 A ,
No, it's not.
~
7 _ Q And how are you confident of that, Mr. Holley?
8 A Because the total welds is not the same as the one I 9 saw.
10 0 Okay.
11 And the -- all right.
12 Let me ask you this: Do you recall, sitting here
) 13 today, whether you saw one such document or more than 14 one such document?
15 A More than one, yes.
16 Just the one is all I can say that said 1,000 welds t
17 plus.
18 Q All right.
19 In other words, then, there was only one document 20 that you recall seeing, reflecting the inspection of 21 ,
1,000 or more welds documented on a singie day by Mr.
22 DeWald; is that correct?
23 A Just one that I can recall, yes.
24 Q All right.
l
(} 25 And the others that you have mentioned today -- did l
l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
L Geneva, Illinois 60134 l (312) 232-0262
5169 O
1 those reflect the documentation of inspections of less 2 than 1,000 welds?
3 A This one here?
s 4 (Indicating.)
5 Q Well, the others that you had in mind when you said you 6 had seen several.
7 A I have seen several, but, like I said, just the one is 8 the only one I can recall where it was 1,000 welds plus.
9 Q Okay.
10 A Just the one.
11 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Excuse me.
12 We're not clear on that testimony as to whether you 13 recall that there were more -- there was more than one 14 document with 1,000 plus and you can only recall one of 15 those that you saw with any specificity or whether you 16 can only recall one document with 1,000 welds.
17 Do you understand the difference?
18 THE WITNESS. Yes, sir.
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN: We're not -- now, which is 20 it?
21 THE WITNESS: I can only recall seeing the 22 one with more than 1,000 welds.
23 MS. KEZELIS: All right.
24 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay.
~
25 So you don't know that there was any more than one?
)
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
,, ueneva, 11Ainois oviae (312) 232-0262
5170 O
1 THE WITNESS: No. There were -- there were 2 some like this. Like this one says "500 welds."
3 (Indicating.)
s 4 JUDGE GROSSMAN: There were some that had a 5 large number of welds --
6 THE WITNESS: Yes.
s 7 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -- but less than 1,000?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes.
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN: And only one that you recall 10 that had more than 1,000?
11 THE WITNESS: Yes, just one that I do recall.
12 BY M3. KEZELIS:
13 0 When you said "this" just now, Mr. Holley, for the 14 record, you were referring to Intervenors' Exhibit 19; 15 is that correct?
16 A Yes, the one in front of me.
17 Q Just for the record, because the Court Reporter can't 18 take down hand gestures.
19 Do you recall when the last time was that you saw a 20 document signed by Mr. DeWald reflecting more than 1,000 l 21 welds?
D 22 A No, I -- I can't -- I can't recall.
23 Q All right.
24 Do you recall how many inspection checklists such j 0 *
{} 25 as those I've just shown you that you have seen in the Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
P"%
5171 1 course of your work at Comstock signed by Mr. DeWald?
2 A How many?
3 Q Yes, sir.
n 4 A No.
5 Q Can you give us a rough estimate of how many you've seen 6 of Mr. DeWald's?
D 7 A That Mr. DeWald had done?
8 Q Yes, sir.
9 A Oh, I would say literally hundreds --
10 0 Okay.
11 A -- or -- yeah.
12 0 I'm sorry?
13 A Literally hundreds.
14 There was a lot of work.
15 Q In response to an earlier question of mine, Mr. Holley, D
16 you said that, I believe, you talked to other QC 17 Inspectors about that document; is that correct?
18 A Yes..
19 Q What did you say to them about it?
20 A Oh, I was just amazed that there were so many welds, you 21 know, inspected, and the other inspectors saw it D 1 22 virtually the same way I did. l l
23 Q Do you recall who you said it to? l 24 A No, not -- not in particular, no.
L
<^s 25 Q Do you recall when you had these, conversations?
U Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
,- Geneva, 1111nois eulde (312) 232-0262
. _ - ,._----_n -- ,,,_-m - -
i
, l 5172 O
1 A No, I don't.
2 Q Okay.
3 Did you make photocopies of that document?
4 A Not that I can remember.
5 0 When you said that you would tell other inspectors that j 6 you were amazed about this document, were you referring C
7 to it in a derogatory fashion?
8 A What's meant by that?
9 Q All right; in a negative or critical fashion.
10 A Oh, we're always critical about, you know -- about the
~
11 quality of the work, if that's what you mean.
12 I didn't refer to it in a negative way.
.0 13 Q Did you refer to it in a joking way?
14 A Maybe to some extent, yes.
15 Q Did you regard it as referring poorly to Mr. DeWald's 16 capabilities as an inspector when he had performed 17 inspections?
18 A No.
19 It -- I didn't know Mr. DeWald when I first sav 20 these papers, so I -- I wouldn't -- I wouldn't make any 21 reference to someone I didn't know.
2 22 Q All right.
23 A It's just a moral standard that I tried to --
24 Q Would it be fair to say, then, it's only after Mr.
L - .
25 DeWald's arrival as QC Manager at the Braidwood site
[}
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134
. (312) 232-0262
5173 J
- (
l that you began referring to these documents in i 2 . conversations with other QC Inspectors?
l 3 A No.
s 4 I'm sure I talked to hin before that if -- you 5 know, if that's when I saw the documents.
6 But like I said, nothing -- nothing negative about 7 the inspector that was -- had signed the documents.
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Miss Kezelis, I think what 9 he's saying is he did discuss the document, but he 10 didn't say anything negative about it because he 11 wouldn't, not knowing Mr. DeWald.
12 Is that basically what you said?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
14 BY MS. KEZELIS:
15 Q Mr. Holley, there did come a time when you did know who 3
.16' Mr. DeWald was --
17 A Yes.
18 0 -- didn't you?
19 A Yes.
20 Q All right.
21 And did you thereafter have discussions with other 22 QC Inspectors about that document?
23 A Oh, yes.
24 Q All right.
{} 25 And can you relate to us'the substance of these Son. tag Reporting Service, Ltd. .
ueneva, AAAAnois ovAae (312) 232-0262
~
[ ~
+;
5174 0
1 conversations?
2 A Basically the same thing, you know: It's -- it's awful 3 hard to get that many inspections in one day.
3 4 The same thing was said, you know; that they were 5 just amazed, I guess you could say, as to getting that 6 many inspections done in one day.
C 7 That's just the gist of our --
8 Q Did you ever show that document to any other inspector?
9 A Oh, I'm sure I did, yes.
10 Q Can you recall who?
11 A No, I can't.
12 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Excuse me.
O 13 Mr. Holley, from seeing that document, was it your 14 understanding, just from reading the document, that 15 those inspections were represented as having been i
~
16 performed in one day?
17 THE WITNESS: The only thing we could go by 18 is that it was signed off in one day, and there's no 19 reference to another day.
20 I -- I can't say that they were done in one day, 21 but that's how they were documented: as being done in G
22 one day.
23 JUDGE GROSSMAN: So your understanding from 24 the documentation is that it was done in one day?
D
(} 25 THE WITNESS: That -- that's how we have to Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
p Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5175 1 understand it, yes.
2 BY MS. KEZELIS:
3 0 Were you familiar with what procedures existed at 4 Comstock in 1981 during Mr. DeWald's employment there as 5 a QC Inspector?
6 A I've looked at the procedures, but I wouldn't know the 7 policies and the practices at the time.
8 Q All right.
9 Do you know a man by the name of Mr. Francisco ,
10 Rolan?
11 A Oh, yes.
12 Q Franco Rolan?
\> 13 A Yes, yes.
14 Q And do you recall that Mr. Rolan was a QC Inspector at 15 the same time period that Mr. DeWald was, from your 16 conversations with Mr. Rolan?
17 A He probably was an inspector, yes, when --
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN: We're talking about the 19 younger Rolan now; is that correct? ,
20 MS. KEZELIS: Yes, sir.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes.
G 22 BY MS. KEZELIS:
23 Q Did you ever have occasion to discuss with Mr. Rolan the 24 practices and policies in effect in terms of 6
25 documentation of welding inspections during 1981?
[}
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. _
, ueneva, 1111nois oviae (312) 232-0262
1 5176 O
1 A I probably did, yes.
2 Q Do you recall what Mr. Rolan said to you about what the 3 policy was of documentation at that time?
4 A No, I -- I don't.
5 Q Did Mr. Rolan ever describe to you the use of a notebook 6 by inspectors as they performed their inspections and s
7 documenting inspections on that notebook, returning to !
8 the office later to summarize --
9 A Yes. Several inspectors had -- had said something about 10 that, yes.
11 Q All right.
12 Was Mr. Rick Martin another one of those 13 inspectors?
14 A Yes, he was.
15 Q All right.
~
16 Have I exhausted your recollection of any 17 understanding you may have had regarding how inspections 18 were performed in 1981?
19 A I don't know if it's exhausted, but --
20 Q Is there anything else that you recall about them?
21 A Not at this time, no.
4 22 Q Okay.
23 Do you recall that in your conversations with Mr.
24 Rolan or Mr. Martin, that any topic along the lines of 25 grid inspection came up?
p(_/
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
r__. - -
5177 I
i
(
l A I'm sure it did, yes.
2 0 Okay.
3 And can you tell us what you recall about that?
4 A Well, the way I believe it was referred to as a grid 5 inspection was one area, like one print; an example, the 6 1-3051 or the 0-3051, one area f rom certain grid lines 7 on the print, you know, either 10 to 15 or A to B or 8 whatever it would be.
9 Q All right.
10 And that's in contrast to the support type of 11 inspection that is pe rf ormed today --
12 A Yes
) 13 Q -- is that correct?
14 And to the best of your understanding, the 15 inspection of all welds in a particular grid area were
.)
16 documented on one inspection checklist;.is that correct?
17 A That's -- that's the way it seemed to be, yes.
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Excuse me.
19 When were these conversations that you had with Mr.
20 Rolan and Mr. Martin with regard to this system of 21 documenting inspections? -
22 THE WITNESS: What do you mean by "when"?
23 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Approximately when did you 24 -- it wasn't yesterday, was it?
25 THE WITNESS: No. It's been quite some time Sonntag Reporting Service, , Ltd.
ueneva, Allinois ovias (312) 232-0262
l 5178 O
1 ago.
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Quite some time?
3 THE WITNESS: Yes.
4 JUDGE GROSSMAN: This was at the time that 5 you were involved in this work?
6 THE WITNESS: Yes; '82, '83, '84.
7 JUDGE GROSSMAN: ,
Okay.
8 BY MS . KEZELIS :
9 Q Did either Mr. Rolan or Mr. Martin explain to you that 10 the inspections that they documented in that fashion 11 were performed over a period of time rather than on a-12 single day?
G k/ 13 A I never heard any reference like that that I can 14 r emembe r.
15 Q All right.
i 16 Mr. Holley, you've been performing, of f and on, 17 weld inspections for some time now; isn't that correct?
18 A Yes, ma'am.
19 Q All right.
20 Based on your knowledge of what it takes in order 21 to complete a weld inspection, do you have any 22 understanding of whether the inspection of 1,000 or more 23 welds could be completed in a single day?
24 A I would say it would be very, very difficult to get that 6
25 many done in one day ~oecause there is quite an amount of Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
- s. Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5179 O
1 research to be done, many, many different details to 2 look at.
3 If the weld isn't properly cleaned, you'll have to 4 get someone to clean it or take a wire brush and clean 5 it yourself.
6 It all takes time.
7 Q Does that complete your answer?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Do you have any reason to believe, Mr. Holley, that Mr.
10 DeWald would have falsified any inspection report of 11 his?
O 12 A Knowing Mr. DeWald, no.
13 Q Mr. Holley, are you aware of any welds which join 14 stainless steel to carbon steel --
15 A No, I'm not.
16 Q -- at Braidwood?
17 All right.
18 In the course of your inspection duties at 19 Comstock, you never came across any weld of stainless to 20 carbon steel?
21 A None that I ever could recall, no.
22 Q All right.
23 Mr. Holley, during the course of your work for 24 Comstock, had you had occasion to inspecc junction
'm 25 boxes --
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. I beneVa, 1111n015 OU1J4 T312) 232-0262
__ ~ _ -
5180 O
1 A Well --
2 Q -- welds in junction boxes?
3 A On junction box supports, probably hold down some 4 junction boxes. That would be -- that would be a good 5 guess that I have, yes.
6 Q How about out-of-core neutron detector junction boxes?
7 A That would be inside.
8 I would probably have done that, yes.
9 Q All right.
10 Do you recall seeing any welding of stainless to 11 carbon steel with respect to those types of junction 12 boxes at any time?
/ 13 A No.
14 Q In response to an earlier question of mine, Mr. Holley, 15 you made a statement to the effect that you or the 16 inspectors -- I'm not sure which; it may have been both 17 -- were always critical about quality.
18 What did you mean by that statement, sir?
19 A It's professionalism. You know, we're very concerned 20 about quality. That's our job.
21 Q All right.
22 When you say you're very concerned about quality, 23 you are referring specifically to what your 24 responsibilities as a QC Inspector are --
25 A Yes.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 1 (312) 232-0262 l
5181 O
1 Q -- is that correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Do you know a man by the name of Mr. John Seeders?
4 A Yes, I do.
5 Q And how do you know that gentleman?
6 A I worked with him for some time.
7 Q Do you still keep in touch with Mr. Seeders?
8 A Occasionally when I see him or pass him at work.
9 Q Okay.
10 Do you see him on a social basis outside of work?
11 A No, no, I don't.
12 Q Do you recall when Mr. Seeders was last a QC Inspector 13 for Comstock?
14 A I couldn't give you a date. It's maybe been a year, 15 maybe a little bit more.
16 Q All right.
17 If I were to represent to you that Mr. Seeders was 18 a QC Inspector for Comstock at Braidwood until late 19 Septr.ber of 1984, would that sound about right?
20 A That -- that could be right, yes.
21 Q Okay. ,
4 22 Do you recall that Mr. Seeders wrote a letter in 23 August of 1984 to Mr. DeWald?
24 A Yes.
25 0 You do, all right.
)
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
, veneva, 11,11n o is ou144 (312) ~232-0262
5182 0
1 Do you recall when you first saw that letter?
2 A I can't give you a date, no.
3 I would imagine it was a couple of days after Mr.
4 Seeders had sent it or delivered it or whatever.
5 Q All right.
6 Let me show you what's been marked and admitted 7 into evidence as Intervenors' Exhibit No. 23.
8 For the record, that's a copy of Mr. Seeders' 9 August 17, 1984, letter to Mr. DeWald.
10 (Indicating.)
11 I ask you to take a look at that, Mr. Holley, for a 12 moment.
13 A I -- I've looked at it before.
14 Q Is that the letter that you recall having been shown by 15 Mr. Seeders shortly after August 17, 1984?
16 A Yes. I remember he showed it to me.
17 Q It was Mr. Seeders who showed it to you; is that 18 correct?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Did Mr. Seeders discuss that letter with you before 21 August 17, 1984?
n' 22 A No. I had no idea anything like this was being done.
23 Q You had no idea that he was planning on writing a 24 letter?
25 A No, uh-uh.
I Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. !
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
_ . _ _ _ _ . _ - _ _ _ . ~_ _ _ . _.__ . . _ _ . . _ .
5183 O
1 Q All right.
2 What did Mr. Seeders say to you, if you ' recall, 3 when he gave you that letter?
4 A Well, really, nothing. He just gave it to me and let me 5 read it. That was just about it.
6 He asked me if I agreed with anything in there or 7 disagreed, but nothing was really said about it.
8 0 What was your understanding of why Mr. Seeders showed it 9 to you?
10 A Professional courtesy. I don't know.
11 Q What do you mean by that, sir?
12 A Well, we had worked together, and apparently he thought 13 maybe it might involve me or some other inspectors, you 14 know, and it might be something that we might want to do 15 ourselves.
16 But he was just trying to enlighten us on what he 17 had done.
18 Q All right.
19 When you said that there might be something that 20 you or other QC Inspectors might want to do yourselves, 21 what were you referring to?
?
22 A Well, he had written a letter, and maybe we would like 23 to write one, too, which I didn't do and I don't think 24 anybody else did, to my knowledge.
25 Q Did Mr. Seeders suggest to you in any respect what he Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, 1111nois culde (312) 232-0262
5184 O
1 would want you to write in a letter?
2 A No, uh-uh.
3 Q All right.
4 Do you recall whether Mr. Seeders showed it in your 5 presence to other inspectors as well?
6 A I'm sure he did, yes.
C 7 Q When Mr. Seeders showed you this letter, was it just you 8 and he, one-on-one?
9 A Yes.
10 0 Okay.
11 Do you recall what, if anything, you said to Mr.
12 Seeders when you read that letter?
13 A No.
14 I -- I was sort of, you know -- sort of amazed that 15 John would do something like that.
16 He, you know -- he was always, you know, to the 17 point and everything; but when he wrote a letter such as 18 this, it, you know -- it caught me by surprise.
19 0 Okay.
20 You said that you were amazed and, secondly, that 21 it caught you by surprise.
22 Can you explain why, sir?
23 A Well, Mr. Seeders, you know -- he -- he tries, you know 24 -- he's always to the point, like I said; and I didn't l C '
25 think he would go do anything like this, you know.
[}
i Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
L Geneva, Illinois
~
60134 ,
(712) 232-0262 I
5185
() -
1 I don't know what this letter has done or, you know 2 -- apparently it's caused a lot of questions and -- and 3 maybe it might have been one of the things that brought 4 up this hearing; I don't know.
5 But I was just amazed that he would do it.
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN: You thought it was a drastic
~
7 measure; 'is that it?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Let's take a break now.
10 (WHEREUPON, a recess was had, after which 11 the proceedings were resumed as follows:)
12 ,
JUDGE GROSSMAN: We're back in session now.
13 BY MS. KEZELIS:
14 Q Mr. Holley, I'm returning what's been previously marked 15 as Intervenors' Exhibit No. 23. That's Mr. Seeders' 16 letter.
17 (Indicating.)
18 You had stated, in response to an earlier question 19 of mine, Mr. Holley, that you had generally found Mr.
20 Seeders to be "to the point," or words to that effect, 21 and that this letter was out of character; would that be D
22 correct?
23 A Yeah, I would say that.
24 Q All right.
{) 25 And why do you say that, sir?-
l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. ,
L. ueneva, 1111nois oulas (312) 232-0262
l 5186 O
1 A Well, I never knew him of doing anything, you know, like 2 this. It's, as you said earlier -- or the judge did --
3 as being a drastic measure. I never remember him doing 4 anything like this.
5 Q I'm sorry. Go ahead.
6 A That's all right.
P 7 Q Did you finish your answer?
8 A Yes.
9 Q In what respect did you consider this to be a drastic 10 measure, Mr. Holley?
11 A Well, everything that's came about from this letter is 12 -- anything that would raise such a concern would -- I 13 would consider drastic.
14 Q Can you be more specific?
15 A Well, he says, "Due to Comstock negligence."
16 A statement like that is -- is pretty strong.
17 Q Do you agree with it -- or did you agree with it at that 18 time?
E s
19 A I had to really think about it.
20 I'm not saying I agreed with it or didn't agree 21 with it.
0 22 Q Do you recall whether at that time you agreed with it or 23 disagreed with it?
24 A Well, there were some things that I agreed with and some 25 that I had no -- no thoughts about at all.
[}
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
.. Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5187 1 Q And you're referring with respect to Mr. Seeders' 2 letter; is that correct?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Okay.
5 Can you point to us what parts you did agree with?
6 A Let me read this first.
C 7 Q Please go right ahead.
8 A Well --
9 Q Go ahead.
~
10 A To start off with his first couple of lines, he said, 11 " Morale has dropped." I agree with that.
12 It says, "Less than a week after, we were promised O 13 that all Level II inspectors would start at $12. The 14 company began to hire inspectors at $14."
15 I don't know about $16, but there were some at $14.
16 A lot of people were very upset about that.
17 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Excuse me, Mr. Holley.
18 I would suggest you read the whole letter r.
~
19 through --
20 THE WITNESS: Okay.
21 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -- and then go back over it De 22 piece by piece.
23 A (Continuing.) For the most part of this letter, the 24 second paragraph and on, it was concerned with Mr.
O
{} 25 Seeders' work and -- and his training.
j Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. _
ueneva, 1111nois eviae j (312) 232-0262
5188 i
(2) l 1
1 I was not involved with -- with his statements in 2 these two paragraphs. l 3 BY MS. KEZELIS:
4 Q Okay.
5 You're referring to the second --
l 6 A Second and the third --
C 7 Q -- and third paragraphs?
8 A -- which continues over to Page 2.
9 Q All right.
10 Would it be fair to say, then, that you had no 11 personal knowledge of the contents of those two 12 paragraphs?
O 13 A Yes, that's a good, fair statement.
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN: You were on the first 15 paragraph, though, when I suggested you read the whole 16 thing.
17 THE WITNESS: Yes.
I 18 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Could you comment further on 19 the first paragraph?
20 THE WITNESS: Well, like I said, the morale 21 was -- was pretty poor.
22 When, as he states, "A copy of the letter was found 23 in the Xerox machine," that went through our office 24 pretty heavy and a lot of people got really upset n
{} 25 because we were promised -- or I can't say we were i
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5189 1 " promised," but we were told in a meeting that everybody 2 coming in will be starting at $12 an hour; everything is 3 going to be fair and up front.
4 That really, you know, changed the outlook of a lot 5 of inspectors.
6 That's -- and that's about all I can say.
7 BY MS. KEZELIS: ,
8 Q Is that about all that you have personal knowledge of, 9 Mr. Holley, with respect to the contents of this letter?
, 10 A Yes.
11 Q All right.
j 12 ,
You also testified, with respect to this letter,
~
13 that you felt or understood that Mr. Seeders was trying 14 to drum up support and that you thought he may have been 15 trying to have you and other QC Inspectors write letters 16 like this.
, 17 Do you rec /tll that?
18 A He never -- never asked us to write one.
19 He says, you know, "I've taken this -- this stand,"
20 and he says, "If you guys feel something, you might --
21 you might want to yourself," you know.
9 22 He never -- he never really expected us to do 23 anything. He just, you know, thought that we might want 24 to take a measure like this.
{} 25 Q For what purpose?
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. _
ueneva, 1111nois ev1Je (312) 232-0262
~_ _
5190 (1) 1 A Well, like I said, the morale was pretty low, and a lot 2 of people were pretty hot about other people coming in 3 for a lot more money -- or more money, and maybe 4 something like this might -- might change the attitudes 5 or bring something to light.
6 Q You. testified that you yourself did not thereafter write 7 such a letter; is that correct?
8 A No, I didn't.
9 Q Why not?
10 A Why didn't I write one?
11 Q Yes, sir.
12 A I -- I don't think anything like this should have been 13 brought out in the open.
14 Q Why is that?
15 A It's -- it is a drastic measure, and, you know, maybe it 16 was right for him to do it, but I don't think I would 17 feel right by doing it myself.
18 0 Is that because you didn't feel that the situation 19 warranted such a drastic measure?
20 A Not really, in my eyes, no.
21 Q My question and your answer may have been confusing.
22 Is your testimony that you felt that the situation 23 was not so drastic as to warrant a drastic measure like 24 the letter; right?
25 MR. GUILD: Mr. Chairman, this is really Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. .
g bentVR, 1111HO15 OU1J9 (312) 232-0262
5191 O
1 leading beyond all --
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Yes.
3 MS. KEZELIS: I didn't mean to lead, and I a
4 apologize.
5 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Sustained; so rephrase it.
6 MS. KEZELIS: All right.
7 BY MS. KEZELIS:
8 Q Mr. Holley, when you said that you felt this was a 9 drastic measure, and you testified that you yourself did 10 not write such a letter, why was that?
11 A Well, like I said, you know, Mr. Seeders I guess gave 12 this a lot of thought, and he felt it might have did 13 some good, but myself, you know -- I'm always one to, 14 you know, go in and talk to somebody about it instead of 15 putting something like this down for everybody to see.
16 I -- I talked to Mr. DeWald personally a couple of 17 times about the morale, you know. That's the way I am.
18 I won't -- I won't put it in writing. It just isn't 19 something that I would do.
20 Q Did you talk to Mr. DeWald about morale before or after 21 you saw that letter?
22 A I would say before and -- well, I don't know about 23 after, but before I had.
24 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Excuse me.
25 Did you think that putting this down in writing
}
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
_a
5192 O
1 would bring repercussions?
2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Is that your reason for 4 thinking it was a drastic measure?
5 THE WITNESS: Repercussions as to what 6 effect?
7 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, I'm asking you. I'm 8 not trying to lead you, but it seemed like there was 9 something unanswered there, and I'm trying to find out 10 exactly, as Miss Kezelis is, why you thought it was a 11 drastic measure to put this down in writing, which I 12 believe you indicated.
13 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN: You did say that?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 It's just something that I wouldn't do. I don't --
17 I wouldn't feel right about doing it, to put it in 18 writing.
19 ,
JUDGE GROSSMAN: Would you have said things 20 like that without putting it in writing?
21 THE WITNESS: In -- in confidence with people w
22 that had something to do, like Mr. DeWald, I would, yes, 23 but that would be mainly just between the two of us and, 24 you know --
4
(} 25 BY MS. KEZELIS:
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
ueneva, 1111nois oviae (312) 232-0262
5193 O
1 Q Did you have -- in response to a question from Judge 2 Grossman with respect to repercussions, you testified 3 that you wouldn't do something this drastic.
4 Let me ask you this: Did you have any fear of 5 retaliation in connection with making this type of a 6 statement yourself?
7 A I feel there would have been some retaliation, yes, but 8 that wouldn't be the reason I wouldn't write it. It 9 would -- like I said, it's just something I wouldn't do.
10 0 What caused you to feel at that time that there might 11 have been some retaliation?
12 A I'm not really sure.
O 13 Q If you can think back for a moment to August of 1984, 14 after seeing this letter, and, as you've testified, you 15 felt that perhaps Mr. Seeders wanted you or others to do 16 something like this, what was there about that time 17 period that led you to feel that you might have been 18 retaliated against?
19 A Well, I'm not -- I -- I want to say that I don't know if 20 Mr. Seeders wanted us to write a letter --
21 Q Okay.
22 A -- but he said the option was there if we did.
23 0 Okay.
24 A There's just an air that Comstock would retaliate. I 25 don't know if it would be, you know, a correct statement
[}
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5194 O
1 to say that they would, but it's just a feeling that --
2 that I had had and other people might have had.
3 Q Mr. Holley, you've testified that you yourself had e
4 talked to Mr. DeWald about morale --
5 A Yes.
6 Q -- and that that is a topic that Mr. Seeders himself 7 raises in his letter --
8 A Yes.
9 Q -- is that correct?
10 What was Mr. DeWald's reaction?
11 A He agreed with me that there was a morale problem, but 12 he said it was something that we would probably have to
() 13 live with because no matter what would happen, there 14 would always be a morale problem.
15 Q Did you fear retaliation when you spoke to Mr. DeWald 16 about that topic?
17 A No, because, like I said, I -- I spoke in confidence and 18 I feel that it was just between me and him and nobody
~
19 else would be involved and nothing else would come of 20 the conversation.
21 Q When you said that you felt that there was an air that 22 Comstock would retaliate, were you referring to anybody 23 other than Mr. DeWald?
24 A Yes.
(} 25 0 All right.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
ueneva, 1111nois 0U134 (312) 232-0262
5195 O
1 And who would that have been, sir?
2 A It could have been the other people in management, like 3 Mr. Saklak or -- or maybe Mr. Seltmann.
4 Q Had Mr. Seltmann ever said anything to you or caused you 5 to fear that he would retaliate against you?
6 A No, no. Like I said, it was just a -- just a feeling 7 that I had and other people had had.
8 Q Okay. ,
9 With respect to your own personal feelings at this 10 point, Mr. Holley --
11 A Okay.
12 0 -- was there some reason, other than the simple fact 13 that they were management and you were an employee, that 14 led you to feel that there was an air that Comstock 15 might retaliate?
16 A Nothing personal, no.
17 Q You testified that you were given a copy -- or Mr.
18 Seeders showed you a copy of this letter shortly after 19 the date that that letter bears; is that correct? !
20 A Yes. -
21 Q All right.
22 Do you recall whether you knew at that time that 23 Mr. Seeders had been given a warning on that date?
24 A No, I have no idea.
25 Q Mr. Seeders didn't say anything to you about --
)
l l
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262 I
5196 P.
V 1 A No.
2 0 -- having received a warning?
3 A No.
4 Q And you had no knowledge of that?
5 A No. ,
6 Q Did Mr. Seeders give you a copy of that letter for your 7 own personal keeping?
8 A I think he did, yes.
9 Q All right.
10 A I -- I have one at the house. How I obtained it -- I 11 don't know if he gave it to me or somebody else made a 12 copy and gave it to me.
() 13 Q Okay.
14 Do you recall when it was that you came to have a 15 copy of that letter at your house?
16 A No. I -- I don't know. As a matter of fact, I haven't 17 seen it for quite some time. I couldn't retrieve it.
18 Q Okay.
19 Did you show a copy of this letter to any other QC 20 Inspector?
1 21 A No. Mr. Seeders showed it to me in confidence, and it '
22 was just between me and him as far as I was concerned.
23 That's -- he asked me not to talk about it to 24 nobody. l
(} 25 Q All right.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
ueneva, Illinois. oulae (312) 232-0262
5197 1
O V
1 This was when he gave it to you; is that correct?
2 A I don't know if he gave,it to me or not.
3 Q Okay.
4 This is when he showed it to you?
5 A Yeah.
6 Q All right.
7 A Like I said, it was just me and him, and we talked. You 8 know, I don't know if he talked to other people. I'm 9 sure he had, but he hasn't said it, so --
10 Q Do you recall having had any conversations with any 11 other QC Inspectors about that letter?
12 A If they approached me on it and said that Mr. Seeders
() 13 had talked with them, I mentioned I -- I had seen the 14 letter, but that was about it.
15 Q Do you know a man by the name of Rick Snyder?
16 A Yes, I do.
17 Q Do you know him to be a QC Inspector at Comstock?
18 A Yes.
19 0 Okay.
20 Do you know what work he does at Comstock?
21 A I believe he's doing calibrations at the time.
22 Q And do you know that Mr. Seeders used to perform 23 calibrations work? ,
24 A Yes, I do.
~~
25 Q Okay.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5198 1 Do you recall ever talking with Mr. Snyder about 2 Mr. Seeders' letter?
3 A I would imagine I had, but, like I said, it just -- just 4 saying that I've read it. That's about it.
5 Q Do you recail, Mr. Holley, physically showing a copy of 6 it to Mr. Snyder?
o 7 A No, I don't recall.
8 Q Okay.
9 Do you recall ever attending a union ratification 10 meeting, or a judicial meeting of some sort with respect 11 to the union, and that Mr. Snyder was present?
12 A All of our -- our meetings that we had with the union, I
() 13 believe myself and Mr. Snyder were both there.
14 0 Okay.
15 Do you recall any particular meeting at which you 16 might have spent the night at a motel and were standing 17 in a hallway, talking to Mr. Snyder?
18 A No. I never spent the night in a motel.
19 (Laughter.)
20 Q Do you recall any such meetings in the spring or summer 21 of 1985 at which you and Mr. Snyder were both present?
22 A I'm sure there were, yes.
s 23 Q You don't recall any specifically?
, 24 A No.
25 Q Do you recall any specific one at which the topic of I
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. ,
y ueneva, AAAAnois ovAae (312) 232-0262 .
+= w a ==
- a . ,
ee ee ..-e re- .-e+,p-a *- *+e e.oee m -.e e .- -,.e.am.,#., 4me-...
5199 O
1 this letter came up?
2 A No.
3 Q Do you recall taking a copy of the letter with you to
~
4 any such meetings?
5 A No. Like I said, it -- it was a -- if I had the letter, 6 it was just between me and Mr. Seeders. I wouldn't -- I 7 wouldn't take it, you know. That was something personal 8 of his.
9 0 Okay.
10 Have I pretty well exhausted your recollection 11 about any use you may have ade or not made of that 12 letter?
() 13 A Pretty much so, yes.
14 Q Let me return your attention now, Mr. Holley, to the 15 events inimediately preceding the visit to the NRC on 16 March 29, 1985.
17 Do you know a man by the name of Mr. Herschel 18 Stout?
19 A Yes, I do.
20 Q All right.
21 How do you know Mr. Stout?
22 A He was an inspector for Comstock.
23 Q All right.
24 He was an inspector immediately prior to the NRC
~
25 visit in 19857 Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5200 1 A Yes, I would say so.
2 Q All right.
3 Were you aware that Mr. Stout received a written 4 warning about 10 days before your visit on March 29, 5 1985?
6 A No.
7 Q Did Mr. Stout ever talk to you about any warning he 8 received --
9 A Not that I can recall.
10 0 -- from Comstock management?
11 A No.
12 Q Do you recall Mr. Stout ever saying to you or in your
( 13 presence words to the effect that he felt a quota was 14 being imposed on him?
15 A Probably, yes.
16 Q Okay.
17 And can you tell us, please, what it is you recall 18 about that?
19 A Probably just like with the other inspectors. There was 20 a feeling that there was a quota, and l'm sure that me 21 and Mr. Stout had talked about it --
22 'O All right.
23 A -- just in conversation.
24 Q Do you recall what Mr. Stout might have said to you?
- 25 A No, I can't -- I can't recall.
I Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. _
UeneVa, 1111DO15 OU1J4 j (312) 232-0262
5201 s
O-1 Q Do you recall how many times Mr. Stout talked to you 2 ebout it?
3 A No.
4 Q Do you recall whether it was immediately or within a 5 l month or so before or even a few months before the visit 6 to the NRC in Marc'h of 1985?
O 7 A It could have been before the meeting, a week, a month, 8 I --
9 Q Okay.
~
10 A -- I -- that's been a while ago. It's hard to remember.
11 Q I understand that.
12 You testified yesterday, I believe, that there had
() 13 been talk of visiting -the NRC as much as one to two or 14 three months prior to the time you actually did in March 15 of 1985.-
16 Do you recall that?
17 A Yeah.
18 0 Do ycu recall talking to Mr. Stout about a visit to the 19 NRC?
20 A Oh, I probably did, yes.
21 Q Okay.
G 22 A Just -- just like other inspectors.
23 Q Okay.
24 A He was just one of the other inspectors.
25 Q Okay.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5202 0 Nothing that Mr. Stout said to you or may have said 1
2 to you stands out particularly in your mind?
3 A No.
4 Q Do you recall who else you might have talked to about 5 visiting the NRC before -- a month or two or three 6 months before -- you actually did?
a 7 A Oh, there's probably several inspectors that I had 8 talked to.
9 0 would you name them for us, please?
10 A There's probably several.
11 I would say Mr. Seeders might have been one, Mr.
12 Snyder, maybe R.D. Hunter, Rick Martin, Mark Klatch'ko;
( 13 several.
14 Q Do you recall anybody else?
15 A I could probably name a lot, but I wouldn't be sure.
16 0 Okay.
17 To the best of your recollection, were there more 18 individuals that you might have talked to --
19 A Yes.
20 0 -- about that?
21 A I'm sure there were, yes.
1' 22 0 Okay. ,
23 Can you -- the first individual that you 24 identified, Mr. Holley, was Mr. John Seeders.
25 A Uh-hu'n.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. ,
ueneva, AAAAnois oviae (312) 232-0262
4 5203
(
l Q Do you recall whether you talked to Mr. Seeders about 2 visiting the NRC after Mr. Seeders was transferred out 3 of the QC Department?
4 A I wouldn't know.
5 Q Okay.
6 A After -- after he was --
7 0 Let me represent --
8 A After he was transferred out, we didn't have that much 9 contact.
10 0 Okay.
11 A So --
12 Q Let me represent for you that Mr. Seeders was 13 transferred out of the QC Department effective October ,
14 1st of 1984, and that your visit to the NRC was on March 15 29, 1985 --
16 A Yeah.
17 0 -- okay?
18 Do you recall when it was that you would have 19 talked to Mr. Seeders about visiting the NRC?
20 A No, nothing in particular.
21 0 That doesn't help?
22 A No.
23 Like I said, there's always talk of going to the 24 NRC with stuff, and there is now, you know. It's just 25 -- just common shop talk.
I Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5204
( !
l Q Okay.
2 When you say that there's always talk of going to 3 the NRC and that it's common shop talk --
4 A Yeah.
5 Q -- can you be more specific?
6 A There's really nothing to be specific about. It's just I
7 like maybe in your profession, you know, you may be 8 talking about studying some certain case. I don't know 9 what you do, but it's just -- it's just something that 10 inspectors do.
11 Q Okay.
12 Would it be fair to say that all of you are aware
() 13 -- strike that. I'll try again.
14 Would it be fair to say that ever since you 15 commenced your employment with Comstock at Braidwood, 16 that you've always been aware that you could go to the 17 NRC if you had to?
18 A Oh, yes. The NRC is always open for us or for anybody !
l 19 to go to, as far as I'm concerned.
20 Q All right.
l 21 And when you say that the NRC is discussed as shop G
22 talk -- or visiting the NRC is discussed as shop talk, 23 are you suggesting that it is brought up as a topic of 24 conversation among you and other QC Inspectors as 25 something other than a last resort?
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
, ueneva, Illinois ou14e (312) 232-0262
I 5205 0
1 A Oh, really, a lot of it's, you know, just joking around, 2 but it would be c;nsidered a last resort, I would 3 imagine.
4 Q Okay.
5 And when you say shop talk and you said just now 6 that a lot of it is joking around, would it be fair to C
7 say that QC Inspectors joke with each other, " Hey, if 8 you don't stop that, I'll go to the NRC," or words to 9 that effect?
10 A Oh, that's happenod, yes.
11 Q Are we referring to anything other than the topics that
~
12 we've just covered when you said there's always talk of
() 13 going to the NRC?
14 MR. GUILD: Objection. The question really 15 is limiting the possible response.
E 16 MS. KEZELIS: I'm trying to be open ended.
17 What else did he have in mind?
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I don't know what topics 19 you're referring to, either.
20 Do you mean that just joking around?
21 MS. KEZELIS: Yes, sir, and I'm sorry that D
22 that wasn't clear.
23 BY MS. KEZELIS:
24 Q Other than just joking around about going to the NRC, 25 Mr. Holley, was there anything else that you had in mind Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
s Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5206
()
1 when you said that there's always talk of going to the 2 NRC?
3 A No.
4 Q Okay.
5 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Do you mean to say, then, 6 that you only spoke about going to the NRC when you were 7 joking around?
8 THE WITNESS: Like I said, some of it was 9 joking, and some of it was, you know, a possibility, but 10 that --
11 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Some of it was serious; some 12 of it was joking?
( 13 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
14 BY MS. KEZELIS:
15 Q Mr. Holley, will you explain to us, please, what you
~.
16 meant or what you were referring to when you said that 17 some of the talk was serious?
18 A Well, when we see something going on, you know, like 19 I've tried to say it might be a last resort to go to the 20 NRC on something, if we can't get something handled 21 through normal channels, you know, we always discuss 22 that the option is there to go to the NRC, and not 23 necessarily that we will go but, you know, always 24 reminding each other that the option is there.
25 Does that help? -
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, 1111nois ou144 (312) 232-0262
5207 1 Q All right.
2 Has there been any incident or situation or 3 something going on that has caused you to feel that you 4 ought to go to the NRC?
5 A Nothing -- nothing really in particular, no.
6 Q Anything in general?
7 A Nothing more than what did come out of, you know, the 8 reasons that we did go back in March, it was.
9 Q March of 1985?
10 A Yeah.
11 Q Okay.
12 Mr. Holley, yesterday you testified that there
) 13 were, in effect, three reasons for your visit to the NRC 14 in March of 1985, and one of those three reasons was 15 because you felt that they were always trying to have 16 you do more inspections; is that correct?
17 A It was a -- a feeling that there was -- quantity was 18 really being pushed on to us, and I don't want to say a
19 that the quality really suffered, but the possibility 20 was there, and we just wanted to bring it to someone's 21 attention and -- and maybe take some pressure off, b
22 because we didn't want it to come to the point where j 23 quality would suffer.
24 Q I may have asked you this before, and if I did, I 25 apologize.
S l
~J \
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. .
[ Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5208 O
1 Was there anything in particular immediately prior 2 to March 29, 1985, that led you to feel that quantity 3 was really being pushed?
4 A Nothing really in particular, no.
5 0 All right.
6 After your visit to the NRC on March 29, 1985, did 7 you notice any change in the manner in which Comstock 8 assigned work to you?
9 A Well, they did try to let us -- well, they did try to 10 let it be known that they never tried to push quantity 11 over quality and they were -- there was an extra 12 emphasis that we do quality work.
() 13 As to the amount of inspections, I don't think that 14 had really changed, if that's --
15 Q When you referred to the amount of inspections, are you 16 referring to the amount of inspections you personally 17 continued to perform?
18 A Yeah. I -- I can't really talk for other people, but 19 for me it virtually remained the same.
20 Q Okay.
21 Did you feel that expectations as to how much you Q
22 were inspecting or should inspect changed after the 23 March 29, 1985, meeting?
24 A It probably did. I, you know -- there's no -- there's t
25 no one thing that would make me feel that it did, but I Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. _ _
ueneva, Illinois oulae P
(312) 232-0262
.l
5209 1 -- I had a feeling that there was; that expectations had 2 changed.
3 Q You recall, do you not, that Mr. Saklak was no longer on 4 the site after March 29, 1985?
I 5 A Yeah.
6 0 Okay.
7 Did Mr. Saklak's departure cause the air or 8 atmosphere to change in any respect --
9 A Yes.
10 0 -- that you can recall?
11 A Yes.
12 Q How is that?
13 A Personally, me and Mr. Saklak were not very good 14 friends, and with Mr. Saklak's departure, I felt there 15 was a -- a big relief, you know, in the pressures, for 16 myself.
17 Q Immediately prior to March of 1985, were you under Mr.
18 Saklak 's supervision?
19 A I don't think I was directly under his supervision, no.
20 0 Was Mr. Simile your supervisor at that time?
21 A Probably, yes. Like I said, it changed, depending on 22 our workload.
23 MS. KEZELIS: May we have just a moment, 24 please?
25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Sure.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
.___r...._ . . . . . . . _ - . - . . . . _ . , . . - .
5210 O
1 BY MS. KEZELIS:
2 Q Mr. Holley, I'd like to return for a moment to the 3 statement you made earlier: You felt that there was an 4 air that Comstock would retaliate if you wrote a letter 5 such as the one that Mr. Seeders wrote.
6 Do you recall that statement?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Okay.
9 What sort of retaliation did you feel would have 10 taken place?
11 A Well, maybe a written warning, you know, something 12 about, you know, they would find something minor. I
() 13 don't think anything directly would come out of the 14 letter, but maybe an added amount of pressure might have 15 been added or -- I don't know when Mr. Seeders was 16 transferred out of the QC Department, but it was after 17 this letter had been written, and I personally feel it 18 was because of this letter, and that's something that 19 people -- or something I would -- would fear. -
20 0 Okay.
21 Would it be fair to say that it was Mr. Seeders' s
22 transfer that led you to feel that there would be some 23 retaliation if you wrote a letter like that?
24 A No, because his transfer was after he wrote the letter, 25 from my understanding.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
ueneva, Allinois oviae
~
(312) 232-0262
l 5211 i
1
)
i 1 Q Okay.
2 What was your understanding -- first of all, did 3 .you talk to Mr. Seeders about his transfer?
4 A No. It happened so fast. He was really upset about it, 5 in one fashion, but then in another fashion he liked his 6 new job, so he seemed content after he got down there.
7 Q Have you had occasion to discuss with Mr. Snyder the 8 Calibrations Department?
9 A Yes. I have been trained in the calibrations area and 10 obtained the certification.
11 Q Okay.
12 Did you have an understanding as to the quality of
( 13 Mr. Seeders' work in calibrations immediately prior to 14 his transfer?
15 A As far as I know, there's never no problem with his --
16 with his work.
17 Q Did you have any understanding as to the status of the 18 Calibrations Department itself when Mr. Snyder took 19 over?
20 A No.
21 Q Okay.
C 22 Did Mr. Snyder ever tell you what kind of 23 conditions he found when he took the Calibrations 24 Department over?
25 A Not that I can recall, no.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
~
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5212 0
1 Q Do you have any familiarity or knowledge of NCR 3419 on 2 calibrations?
3 A If I could remember that -- it was a pretty big NCR 4 about some of the records that had been kept in the 5 Calibrations Department. I believe that was the one.
6 Q Okay.
7 Is that the extent of your knowledge about that 8 NCR?
9 A Yeah.
10 I know there's a lot of work, ongoing work, to try 11 to clear it up, a lot of research and -- and 12 documentation through the vault.
() 13 Q Have you done some of that work yourself?
14 A No, I never -- never was involved with it.
15 Q Is that the extent of your knowledge with respect to the 16 Calibrations Department?
17 A Yes. '
18 MS. KEZELIS: I have no further questions.
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Mr. Guild?
.20 MR. GUILD: Could I have a five-minute 21 recess, Judge?
22 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Sure.
23 (Whereupon a recess was had, af ter 24 which the hearing resumed as follows:)
25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: We're back in session.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
ueneva, Illinois oulae (312) 232-0262
. 1 5213 O
1 Before you start, Mr. Guild, Miss Kezelis had 2 ' indicated in her questioning that at one point you had ,
3 stated that Mr. Seeders had shown the letter to QC l 4 Inspectors in order to drum up support, and I didn't 5 recall your saying that.
6 Did you say that?
7 THE WITNESS: He didn't really want the
) 8 support. He, you know -- he just wanted to let it be 9 known that the option was there for us to do what --
10 what he had done.
11 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. That's fine.
12 Mr. Guild, you may cross-examine.
13 MR. GUILD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
14 Mr. Holley, my name is Bob Guild. We met at your 15 deposition.
16 I'm counsel for the Intervenors and have some 17 questions for you.
18 CROSS EXAMINATION 19 BY MR. GUILD:
20 Q Presently, as you stated to Miss Kezelis, you are 21 employed by BESTCO but assigned to Gust K. Newbe rg?
J 22 A Yes, that's right.
23 Q Can you keep your voice up a little bit.
24 A That's right. ,
25 Q Are you performing welding configuration inspections?
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
ueneva, AAAinois ovAae (312) 232-0262
5214 O
1 A Yes, in addition to others.
2 Q Can you identify the other types of inspection activity?
3 A I'm doing raceway inspection, which consists of conduit 4 and cable tray and junction box and their supports.
5 Q And including welding as well?
6 A Welding, yes.
7 Q And configurations?
8 A Yes. It's classified differently under the Newberg 9 system, but it's the same thing.
10 Q All right, sir.
11 And is this under Newberg's contract for the 12 electrical work in the Unit 2 reactor?
( 13 A That's correct.
14 Q And I understood from your testimony that you were i
15 assigned, along with several other QC Inspectors, to do 16 this work for Newberg; correct?
17 A Yeah. There's five of us that were transferred from 18 Comstock and plus all the other people have been hired 19 'in to do the inspections.
20 0 Were other people hired in under BESTCO assigned to 21 Newbe rg? ,
a 22 A Through Newberg, yes.
23 Q And those are not the same people, aside from the five 24 of you, that worked formerly for Comstock? ;
25 A Yes. i l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
_- Geneva, Illinois 00144 (312) 232-0262
5215 1 Q These are new people or additional people?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Is it true, to your understanding, that Comstock lost i the contract for the electrical scope of work for the 5 Unit 2 reactor building?
6 A Apparently they did,. yes. That's why Newberg got it.
7 Q As you stated, you were assigned to help Newberg get 8 started on their electrical work for Unit 2?
9 A That was our understanding,, yes.
10 0 Can you identify the other former Comstock QC Inspectors 11 that went with you over to Newberg?
12 A There's Mr. Ron Frisby, Richard Galle, Dean Peterson and 13 Miss Vallie Yerout Haarstick.
14 Q Can you spell her new last name?
15 A H-A-A-R-S-T-I-C-K.
16 Q All right.
17 And all of those people were formerly Comstock 18 Level II inspectors?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Can you describe the circumstances, as you understand 21 it, Mr. Holley, when you were transferred over to i
22 Newberg?
23 A The circumstances?
24 Q How did you learn about your transfer?
25 A On Friday afternoon, I was called in by BESTCO and said, Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5216 O
1 "You're to report to Mr. Tom Green of Newberg Monday 2 morning for your new position."
3 0 Who at BESTCO called you in?
4 A It was either Dan Gregory or Tom Skidmore, the manager 5 of BESTCO.
6 Q Now, those gentlemen at BESTCO, they don't direct --
7 they don't supervise your work, do they?
8 A No. They're administrative over -- over the 9 administrative portions of our work.
10 Q I see.
11 And did you, through them or others, have any 12 understanding of the circumstances of your transfer?
13 A Like what kind of circumstances?
14 Q Why were you being transferred, do you know?
15 A Oh, well, what we were told was, you know, we -- there's 16 -- that they needed people with certain backgrounds that 17 had some familiarity with the -- with the plant and the 18 drawings and had shown a good work background --
19 Q All right.
20 A -- in order to help establish a new program over there.
21 Q And from whom did you get such an understanding?
22 A From BESTCO.
23 Q From the two gentlemen you talked about, you identified?
l 24 A Yes.
)
{} 25 Q One or more of those?
l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois eulas
!- (312) 232-0262
5217 i
(
l A Yes.
2 And also at the -- the same thing that Mr. Tom 3 Green and Steve Milano of Newberg had told us when we 4 come in.
5 Q Is it fair to say that your understanding was that the 6 five of you were selected because you were capable and 7 experienced inspectors?
8 A Yes.
9 Q All right.
10 Now, when you went to the NRC on the 29th of March, 11 1985, you raised a particular concern that you had, 12 aside from the concerns about Mr. Saklak, and that had 13 to do with Mr. --
14 A Sam Rissman.
15 Q -- Sam Rissman, yes. Thank you.
16 -- and the work that you understood he was 17 performing in the vault that you took to be work as both 18 an auditor and as an inspector?
19 A Yes.
20 Q I'm sorry?
21 A That -- that, in my mind, was cleared up by Quality 22 First.
23 Q Yes.
24 And I understood you to say that, and I understood i
{} 25 you to say that in addressing those concerns, that 1
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
7, Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
L 5218 O
1 Quality First responded after the March 29th incident --
2 or meeting with the NRC, and that your meeting with 3 Quality First was in the last three to five months; is L
4 that correct?
5 A It was the beginning of this year. I can't say the 6 date.
7 Q The beginning of 1986?
8 A I would -- that's a good -- good estimate, yes.
9 Q All right.
10 Had you had any response from Quality First on your 11 concern during 1985?
?
12 A I can't really recall if I did or not.
O Nl 13 0 Okay.
14 How did you -- how did Quality First come to 15 address your concern in 1986, then?
16 A I would imagine they were trying to clear up all the 17 allegations that were made, it was my understanding.
\
\
) 18 Q Okay. -
19 How did you get that understanding?
20 A That's when I believe it was Ray Preston of Quality 21 Fi'st r called me in, or it might have been -- there was 22 another gentleman involved -- I can't remember his name 23 -- of Quality First.
24 Q Mr. Preston or some other Quality First person --
U 25 A Yes.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
, veneva, Illinois eulas (312) 232-0262
5219
~
1 0 -- called you in?
2 A Yes, he did.
3 Q And did he or the other gentleman lead you to understand 2
4 that they were clearing up these old allegations by 5 Comstock inspectors?
6 A He -- he said that that's what they were attempting to 7 do, yes.
8 Q All right, sir.
9 Did you understand, either from those gentlemen or 10 from other sources, that other Comstock inspectors were 11 being called in at about the same time to address --
12 A Yes. He said others were, yes.
s 13 Q "He," Mr. Preston, or the other gentleman?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Now, can you just state for the record briefly what Mr.
16 Preston or the other Quality First man had to say to you 17 in substance about your concern regarding Mr. Rissman?
18 A He said that they had checked into it and had questioned 19 other inspectors and questioned the Comstock management 20 and, in addition, were questioning me and had learned 21 through the understanding that Mr. Rissman was 1-3 22 performing his job, you know, correctly; he wasn't 23 auditing what he had inspected. He was auditing and he 24 was inspecting, but none of the two intermingled, which, 9
{} 25 to my knowledge, is an acceptable practice.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
k 5220
)
1 Q Did Mr. Preston so state that it was an acceptable 2 practice?
3 A He had -- he had that understanding, yes, he did. ,
4 Q Okay.
5 Did Mr. Preston provide you any kind of a document 6 or report reflecting what their investigation had found?
7 A No. I -- I don't remember getting any kind of 8 documentation.
9 0 It was an oral statement by .;as gentleman to you?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Did he appear to be referring to any notes or documents 12 when he made the statement to you?
13 A Just like when you talk to anybody, they've got their 14 set of notes in front of them.
15 Q He had a file of some sort?
16 A Probably. I wouldn't -- I wouldn't know if he did or 17 not.
18 Q A set of notes or a piece of paper in front of him?
19 A Yeah, just -- just like you have in front of you.
20 Q I've got lots of them, indeed.
\
21 All right, sir.
22 When you -- when you brought this matter to the 23 NRC's attention in March of '85, was it on the basis of 24 some personal observation on your part regarding Mr.
25 Rissman?
)
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
ueneva, 1111nois ovias (312) 232-0262
5221 Yes, and through talk, you know, with othier people.
~
l A 2 Other people had made the statement, and it was -- it 3 was sort of a concern to me. That's one reason why I 4 did bring it up.
5 Q Let me start with what you observed personally.
6 Can you tell me how you came to observe Mr. Rissman 7 doing this work?
8 A I personally didn't observe it.
9 Q Okay.
10 What did you -- what did you observe personally, if 11 anything?
12 A Well, I did know that Mr. Rissman was an inspector and C
13 he was -- I don't know if it was temporarily assigned to 14 the QA Department or it was a transfer. It was -- I 15 guess you could call it a gray area, whatever, you know 16 -- what hia job was at the time, in my mind, anyway.
17 Q Okay.
18 A Someone -- I can't remember who -- made the statement 19 that he was doing inspections and auditing and it's 20 possible he was doing them over himself, and that's the 21 reason I brought it up.
22 0 I'm sorry. I missed one word there.
23 It was possible that he was doing --
24 A It's possible that he was doing that.
25 Q Over himself?
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
g Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
~
5222
~
l A Over himself. That's what someone told me.
2 That's the reason I brought it.up to the NRC when I 3 was there.
4 As I stated to the NRC in that meeting, I wasn't 5 sure, you know. It's just a question that I would like 6 to be clarified.
7 Q All right.
8 Were you -- did you understand at the time, at the 9 time you brought up the concern, that Mr. Rissman had 10 been working in the vault?
11 A He probably was working in the vault, yes.
12 O I'm not asking you now what you -- what you now think.
~ O' 13 I'm asking you when you brought the concern up --
14 A He was working in the vault.
15 Q Okay.
r 16 A I'm not sure as to the dates or -- or exactly what he 17 was doing. 'He was doing some kind of document review or 18 some kind of audits.
~
19 Q Okay.
20 A Like I said, I wasn't involved with Mr. Rissman, so --
21 Q What kind of inspection work did Mr. Rissman do, to your O
22 knowledge?
23 A I can't recall what he was certified in. -
1 24 Q Do you know what type of work he generally did?
25 A No, I don't.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
,, ueneva, Illinois. oulae (312) 232-05G2 l
h 5223 O
1 Q Was he a weld inspector?
2 A I don't think he was a weld inspector.
3 Q All right.
4 But you were aware that he was a QC Inspector?
5 A Yes.
6 Q All right.
7 What was the reason, Mr. Holley, that the 8 performance of QA auditing work and inspection work 9 raised the question of conflict of interest?
10 A Well, if -- if it was being done, you know, someone --
11 an audit is to -- is to provide evidence that an 12 inspection activity is being done properly, in my mind; 13 and if someone is auditing the inspection work that 14 they're doing, it -- it just seems like something could 15 be covered up or something, you know -- I don't see how 16 someone could honestly audit theirselves, saying they're 17 doing the job right.
18 Q All right, sir.
19 You testified that at one point in time, you 20 performed a special project addressed at the backlog of 21 Comstock inspection work; correct?
O 22 A Yes.
23 Q I believe that activity took place, did it not, in the 24 summer of 1984?
25 A Yes.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5224 O
1 Q And I believe your testimony was that that work was --
2 that you were asked in the course of that work by Mr.
3 Seltmann, the Comstock Quality Assurance Manager, to 4 forgo your cross-training pending the completion of that 5 backlog project?
6 A Yes, that's correct.
7 Q Now, what was your understanding of Mr. Seltmann, the 8 . Quality Assurance man's, responsibility for the backlog 9 inspection project on which you were working?
10 A Well, I would imagine, you know, with a -- with the 11 backlog they did have, they didn't have the amount of 12 management in the QC Department to help out, and that's
)
(sd 13 why he was trying to help. That's the way I -- I 14 thought of it, anyway.
15 0 All right.
16 Mr. Seltmann was the Quality Assurance -- well, now 17 the manager; correct?
18 A I believe he is considered a QA Manager, yeah.
19 Q And he was from the time before you were transferred 20 over to Newberg the QA Manager; is that correct?
21 A Yeah, I believe that's the way it was.
22 Q At the time of his memo that's Exhibit 42, he was the QA 23 Engineer, but did you understand at the time that Mr.
24 Seltmann was the senior site Quality Assurance person 25 for Comstock?
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. :
Geneva, 1111nols OU1J4 (312) 232-0262
=
5225 0 .
i 1 A Yes, he was. ,
i 2 Q All right.
3 Mr. DeWald was the site Quality Control Manager at l I
4 that time in the summer of '84?
5 A Yes, he was. l i
6 Q And it was Mr. DeWald's responsibility to supervise the 7 quality control inspection activity; right?
8 A Yeah, I would say so.
9 Q Through his subordinates, Mr. Saklak and others?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q And it was Mr. Seltmann's job, as the QA man, to audit 12 the Quality Assurance Program, including the quality 13 control inspection work; is that your understanding?
14 A I would say so, yes.
15 Q All right.
16 Was there ever any explanation then given why it 17 was appropriate that Mr. Seltmann be supervising the 18 quality control inspection backlog project to which you.
19 were assigned?
20 A No; just -- just like I had stated, I felt they just 21 needed the help and he was there to help.'
2 22 Q All right.
23 The memo that's been received or marked for 24 identification, I guess, that Mr. Seltmann sent to the 25 backlog team is dated August 24, 1984.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
I 5226 O
G 1 You stated to Miss Kezelis that you at that time 2 were already performing these backlog inspections; 3 correct?
4 A Yeah, in addition to other inspections, also.
5 C All right.
6 Can you recall for what period of time before 7 August of '84 you were assigned to work on backlog 8 inspections?
9 A I was off, and en the whole time I was employed, I would 10 imagine, because --
i 11 Q Okay.
12 A -- like I said, there's always some type of backlog and
() 13 we were always trying to work on it.
14 Q Was it your understanding that there was always some 15 kind of backlog even after you -- you closed out the 16 special project in September of '84?
17 A I don't know what they would consider as a backlog af ter 18 that, and I know we were told that it had been completed 19 and we did a good job, but I can't honestly say that 20 there was another backlog after that, you know, not to 21 my knowledge.
s 22 Q Okay. -
23 Might there have been a backlog but within this 24 30-day standard that Miss Kezelis was asking you about, 25 after the September, '84, date?
. Sonntag Reporting Sert ice, Ltd.
ueneva, 1111nois outse (312) 232-0262
i i
5227 '
()
1 A I -- like I said, honestly, I can't say. !
2 Q Do you know when the company went to in-process 3 inspections?
4 A No, I don't. I can't -- can't give a date.
5 0 The memo from Mr. Seltmann about foregoing training for 6 a time is dated August 24, '84.
7 You said you were doing backlog inspections on and 8 off from when you came to the site, but do you recall 9 when the backlog weld and configuration inspection team, 10 if I can use that word, was first formed?
11 A For this particular project, if you want to call it a 12 project, I believe it was the 24th. It might have been
() 13 the 23rd, because we did receive this letter almost 14 immediately after the meeting.
15 Q All right, sir.
16 And so there was a special project that this letter 17 was addressed to, and that had just been organized when 18 the memo was written?
19 A Yes.
20 Q All right. I see.
21 Can you recall who else was on this backlog weld 9
22 and configuration inspection project with you?
23 A It was most of the other welding configuration 24 inspectors that had some experience in -- in the area.
25 Several people, from Mr. Klatchko, Joe Hii and all Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, 1111ncis 60134 (312) 232-0262
s 5228 O
1 the people that worked for them, I would imagine.
2 Q Mr. Hii and nr. Klatchko were Lead Inspectors?
3 A Yes, they were.
4 Q And so they and their subordinates, the inspectors that 5 reported to them?
6 A Yes.
7 I believe Mr. Hii was involved. I'm -- he -- he 8 was a -- a Lead over the welding configuration 9 inspectors.
10 Q Can you recall approximately how many Level II 11 inspectors all t'old were involved in this particular
~
12 project?
} 13 A Oh, it was probably between 10 and 15 or maybe even a 14 few more than that.
15 Q All right.
16 Before the August 24, '84, memo from Mr. Seltmann 17 and the decision that it evidences to ask the inspectors 18 to forgo training to work on backlogs, had there ever
\
19 been a time, Mr. Holley, when you had requested and been 20 denied cross-training?
21 A Oh, I had requested cross-training a couple of times. I
)
22 can't really say I was denied it. You know, we were put 23 on the schedule, when the schedule was -- was -- was 24 written.
~
25 And as our schedule allowed, we tried to get into
-- Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
ueneva, 1111nois ovAae (312) 232-0262
5229 D
O 1 cross-training when we could.
2 There were several memos that were written like 3 when Mr. Marino had come down, Mr. Marino being a 4 Comstock QA Manager from corporate.
5 He come down and talked to us about training and 6 said that there would be extensive training coming on 0 -
7 now, and he asked us all to write memos to him stating 8 what we wanted to be cross-trained in.
9 Q Was that statement by Mr. Marino made in April of '84 10 when they announced the new cross-training program?
11 A I would say it was around that time, yes, or close to 12 it.
f')
ss 13 Q And was that statement by Mr. Marino the same statement 14 that was alluded to in Mr. Seeders' letter of August 17, 15 '84, Exhibit 23, where he talks about the $12 raise in 16 50-cent increments?
17 Was that Mr. Marino's statement that he's referring 18 to?
19 A Yes. He -- when we were all salary restructured, I 20 guess you could call it.
21 Q The so-called promise that that would be the salary 22 structure thereafter?
23 A Yes.
24 Q It's Mr. Marino's so-called promise you're referring to?
25 A Yes, I guess you'd call it that, yes.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
- Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
._,- . , , .. . . . - . . . . . - . . . . . . . , ~ . . . . . . . . - ,-
5230 C>
1 Q Okay.
2 Thereafter do you recall authoring a memo to Mr.
3 Klatchko, Worthington and DcNald?
4 It's been marked as Holley Deposition Exhibit 3.
5 It's a Read and Reply Memo.
6 (Indicating.)
7 A Yes, I recall that.
8 Q It bears a date of 6/20/82, subject: Cross-training.
9 Would you read for the record, please, the text of 10 what you wrote to these gentlemen?
11 A It says, "I respectfully request a reason why I'm being 12 discriminated against in the cross-training program. I
} 13 have requested cross-training many times and denied for 14 several reasons. I've been at Braidwood for one year 15 and 10 months and the opportunity has not been there.
16 Many of my fellow inspectors acknowledge great concern 17 as to their future training, also."
18 I signed it 6/20/84.
19 Q Did Mr. DeWald reply to your request? j 20 A Yes. His reply was " Whitehead" -- Mr. Whitehead being 21 the training coordinator. " Whitehead to contact Holley G
22 and resolve this problem, 6/20/84," and that's when he 23 signed it. j l
24 0 All right. l 25 Did Mr. Whitehead contact you thereafter?
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
L.
veneva, 1111nois ou134 (312) 232-0262 l
5231 l i
(v9 1 A Yes, he did.
2 Q How long thereafter, do you recall?
3 A It was that day or the next day; and he explained to me 4 about the training schedule that he was trying to 5 implement and how they were going to run a program where 6 people were going to be put into a cycle and be 7 cross-trained-every so many weeks, six or eight weeks, 8 whatever it was.
9 0 Okay.
10 That's toward the end of June, 1984, and, of 11 course, in August of 1984, you were asked to forgo any 12 cross-training for a period while you did the backlog
() 13 inspections.
14 How much cross-training did you get to do between 15 the time you wrote the memo to Mr. DeWald and the time 16 that you were, in effect, asked to stop taking training?
17 A I can't really remember because, you know, there's been 18 so much, you know. I can't remember in that short 19 period of time how much I had done.
20 Q Do you recall having any? ;
l 21 A There might have been some. I -- I can't honestly say l
/
22 there was or there wasn't.
23 Q Did you obtain any other certifications during that 4 24 period of time, do you recall?
25 A I did obtain certifications, but I can't say when they Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
s .
5232 O
1 were. I can't -- I can't recall the dates.
2 Q Fine.
3 Now, Mr. Holley, you've testified in response to 4 counsel's questions, that your style generally was 5 different from the style that was reflected in Mr.
6 Seeders' action in writing the letter, that you like to 7 take things up personally with someone face to face; is 8 that an accurate understanding?
9 A Yes, I do.
10 Q You talked about having brought problems to Mr. DeWald's 11 attention on a number of occasions.
12 What prompted you in this instance, the instance
() 13 reflected in your June 20, 1984, memo, to put it in 14 writing and to address it to not only Mr. DeWald 15 personally but to Mr. Klatchko and Mr. Worthington?
16 A Well, all inspectors were asked to write down a memo and 17 ask for training, and I believe we were asked by Mr.
18 Marino ---I can't be sure of that -- but -- so many 19 people wrote memos, virtually the same thing that I did, 20 asking for training.
21 Q Well, this -- this memo, the 6/20 memo, as you read for i
22 the record, reflects that you had requested 23 cross-training many times and been denied for several 24 reasons, s J
25 Bad you written memos before?
l c
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. , ];
~, veneva, 1111nols oviae '
(312) 232-0262
5233 O
1 A I can't say that I did or I didn't. I can't remember.
2 Q Had you requested -- as you stated in the memo, had you 3 requested cross-training before and been denied?
4 A Yes, yes.
5 But before then, cross-training, you know, would 6 have been nice, you know, for -- for my background and 7 for my personal education, but once the new salary 8 structure come out, that would be the only reason -- or 9 the only way we could get a raise in our -- our salary 10 was to get cross-training. It became more important for 11 me to get more -- more training.
12 Q That's the only way you could get the 50-cents-per-hour 13 increment; is that correct?
14 A Yes.
15 Q All right, sir.
16 In the effort to reduce the inspection backlog at 17 Comstock, did you ever have occasion, Mr. Holley, to 18 work with other inspectors on a particular Saturday 19 where there was a special inspection project in which a 20 Mr. Jim Purrazzo of Commonwealth Edison Company was 21 involved?
22 A I've worked with Mr. Purrazzo once or twice, but I can't i
23 remember anything in particular, no.
24 Q Can you identify Mr. Purrazzo?
25 A He's a Commonwealth Edison employee.
s 5onntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
~. Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262 l
5234 O
1 Q Does he work for the Project Construction Department, to 2 your knowledge?
3 A Yes, I think so.
4 Q Okay.
5 There has been previous testimony about a Saturday 6 project in which a lot of inspectors worked on 7 inspections, and Mr. Purrazzo was present and 1
8 congratulated the inspectors at the end of the session 9 for the job having been accomplisbad.
10 Does that refresh your recollection about such an 11 incident?
12 A No, it doesn't.
() 13 Q Did you on occasion work Saturdays on backlog 14 inspections?
15 A Oh, yes. We worked many, many Saturdays.
16 Q Had you ever heard, Mr. Holley, of a reference to 17 something called a Pearl Harbor File?
18 A I believe that was something that Mr. Saklak used to 19 keep, if I'm not mistaken. It's just something of his 20 personal -- personal records f rom -- f rom my past 21 understanding.
0 22 Q Okay.
23 And how did you learn or hear of such a file of Mr.
24 Saklak's? I L
s, 25 A Oh, he used to refer to it.
,l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
l
- Geneva, 1111nols ou144 j (312) 232-0262 ,
5235 O
V 1 Q He, Mr. Saklak, did?
2 A Yes.
3 Q He referred to it to you?
"1 4 A I don't think personally to me, but, you know, as a --
-5 as a group.
6 Q You among other inspectors --
{
7 A Yes.
8 Q -- in your presence, Saklak would refer to this file?
9 A Yeah.
10 Q All right.
11 And can you tell us in substance what the context 12 was in which Mr. Saklak would refer to it?
13 A Oh, how he would refer to it?
14 Q Yes.
15 A He I guess would call it -- or he would refer to it as 16 his CYA file, cover your bottom file.
17 (Laughter.)
18 Q Right.
19 A That's about it.
20 0 Okay.
21 Did you overhear Mr. Saklak saying words to the 22 effect, "Here goes something for my Pearl Harbor File,"
23 referring to a document, perhaps?
24 A I'm sure he said that before, yeah.
O 25 Q What was your understanding of what -- the purpose of Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5236 1 maintaining such a file?
2 A CYA.
3 (Laughter.)
4 Q What was your understanding of the content of that file, 5 what he put in it?
6 A Oh, it would be -- it would be memos such as this one 7 from Mr. Seltmann.
8 (Indicating.)
9 You know, stuff like this.
10 Q The memo that's been marked --
11 A Yeah.
12 If he was around when that happened, that probably
() 13 would have went into it. I, you know -- what all he had 14 in it I have no idea. I never saw the thing, so --
15 Q We've got to get this down in black-and-white.
16 What you were referring to when you held up the 17 paper was Applicant's Exhibit 42, the memo.about the 18 backlog and the cross-training --
19 A Yes.
20 Q -- correct?
21 A That would probably be a good example of what might be P
22 in there.
23 Q Are you aware of any other types of documents that are 24 contained in that file?
~
A 25 A Oh, probably memos that he had written or, you know,
)
s.)
l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
- veneva, Illinois oulae (312) 232-0262
_ . . . . . _ . . _ . . . . . . ~ _ . _ . _ . _ _ , . - . . _ . ._. _ _ . .
5237
.(
l anything that he would consider that, you know, he might 2 have to use at a later date to cover hisself.
3 Q Have you ever seen the file?
4 A No, I never have.
5 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Excuse me.
6 Is it anything that might be damaging to someone I
7 that he might be able to use later? Is that it?
8 THE WITNESS: I couldn't really say, you 9 know. There probably could be something in there, but 10 in all honesty --
11 JUDGE GROSSMAN: No, no. I'm not asking you 12 what actually went in there; but was it your
'( 13 understanding that he was putting -- he was representing 14 that he was putting things in that were damaging to 15 someone that he might be able to use later?
16 THE WITNESS: I -- I could say that honestly, 17 yes. He, you know -- every time he would, you know, 18 say, you know, "This is for the Pearl Harbor File," that 19 was my understanding, yes.
20 JUDGE GROSSMAN: That it was something that 21 was damaging to someone and that he might use it later 9
22 in some damaging matter?
23 THE WITNESS: That was my understanding, yes.
24 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay.
r
~
25 BY MR. GUILD:
l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. l
~
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5238 1 Q In your own words, Mr. Holley, can you give us an 2 example of a circumstance, maybe hypothetical if you 3 don't know of an actual fact, where Mr. -- an example of 4 a circumstance where Mr. Saklak would say, "I'm putting 5 something in my Pearl Harbor File"?.
6 A Well, like when a directive would come out, you know, on 7 how to inspect something, you know, a letter f rom CECO 8 or a letter from Engineering, you know, directing us we 9 should inspect it in this manner now, you know, because 10 the procedure has changed or it's going to be changed or 11 something to that effect.
12 Q Have you ever heard of a Sargent & Lundy docum'ent on the
~( 13 subject of grounding cables for electrical equipment at 14 the site?
15 A I'm sure there's a lot of them, but nothing in 16 particular, no.
17 Q Do you have any knowledge about such a document being 18 involved in Mr. Saklak's Pearl Harbor File?
19 A No, I don't.
20 Q Did you ever do equipment inspection?
21 A No; just -- just the welding of the equipment.
O 22 Q Okay.
23 Mr. DeWald's inspection report, the document that 24 Miss Kezelis asked you about, the 1,000 or more welds on D
25 a single inspection report -- do you recall having j
\O l l
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. _
i ueneva, 1111nols oulae (312) 232-0262
5239
.(
l looked at that document, Mr. Holley, whether or not all 2 of the welds listed for that report were indicated as 3 acceptable?
l 4 A Yes, they were.
5 Q When you state that your reaction was one of amazement 6 at that report, did the fact that all of the welds were 7 indicated as being acceptable by Mr. DeWald -- was that 8 a fact that was significant to you in that judgment?
9 A Oh, it -- it is, you know -- if you're going to inspect 10 1,000 welds or more, it's very likely that you're going 11 to find something wrong with some of them. I'm not ,
12 saying that the ones he found something wrong with he
() 13 didn't document elsewhere, but it's awful hard to find, 14 you know -- to inspect that many welds and not find 15 something wrong with them.
16 Q Isn't it the purpose of the Form 19, the weld inspection 17 checklist, to document rejectable conditions for welds 18 that were inspected?
19 A Yes, acceptable and rejectable conditions.
20 Q And so if 24r. DeWald had indeed found rejectable 21 conditions, the procedure would have cclled for him to 22 have documented those on a weld inspection checklist?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Was there -- with this document, the weld inspection L
[} 25 checklist showing the'1,000 or more acceptable welds, Sonntaa ReDortino Service, Ltd.
s Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
. . _ . . -.-. L.-... .. . . .
5240 1 was there any attached checklist b? Mr. DeWald 2 indicating that he had identified any rejectable 3 conditions?
4 A Not from what I had saw, no.
5 Q Did you have available to you a whole package for that 6 component when you came across the documents?
) 7 A Well, when I asked for a certain document from the 8 vault, they would retrieve the document that would 9 involve that certain support, and it would be just one 10 piece of paper or whatever was in there for that 11 particular support.
12 Q All right.
O 13 If there had been a subsequent inspection, a weld 14 inspection, of that particular support -- now, I'm 15 talking about the one listed among others on the DeWald 16 inspection report that you witnessed --
17 A Uh-huh.
18 Q -- would there have been a subsequent Weld Inspection 19 Report provided to you?.
20 A There should be, yes.
21 Q ,
Was any such inspection report provided to you?
22 A At times there were, yes.
23 Q Think about the particular time that we're talking about 24 here, the DeWald report.
25 A Like I said, I saw that document a couple of times,
(])
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
s 5241 O
1 because there's several supports on that -- on that one 2
report.
3 Any further documentation on that one I can't 4 really recall, no.
5 Q Okay.
6 For clarity now, in the past times multiple 7 components were documented on a single inspection 8 report, is it my understanding that in updating the 9 Comstock records, the practice was to Xerox that report 10 once for every component that was listed on that 11 multiple-component document?
12 A I believe that was the practice at one time, so they 13 could have a different file for each support.
14 Q All right.
15 So let's say just hypothetically that on Mr.
16 DeWald's inspection report with 1,000 plus welds --
17 let's say there were 200 hangers. I'm just making that 18 number up.
19 A I would say closer to 30 or 40 hangers.
20 - Q That's a better example, in your informed opinion, 30 to ,
21 40 hangers.
s 22 That report, the 1,000 plus weld report by Mr.
23 DeWald, would have been Xeroxed 30 or 40 times. Each 24 time it would be placed in the individual file for that 25 particular hanger?
}
Sonntag Reporting Service. Ltd.
. Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5242 O
1 A Yeah, I believe that's how it was done.
2 Q So that an inspector who was later doing a configuration 3 inspection for each of the hangers would have 4 encountered this report -- a Xeroxed copy of it?
5 A Yes.
6 Q You were asked some questions about what you understood 7 to be a quota system that had been followed at Comstock 8 with regard to inspections.
9 Do you recall, Mr. Holley, ever hearing Mr. DeWald, 10 at a general meeting of QC Inspectors -- say the Friday 11 general meetings that were held for a time -- ever refer 12 to such a quota system?
O 13 A They never referred to a quota system, no.
14 Q They never used the words " quota system"?
15 A No.
16 Q Do you ever recall Mr. *; ewald, at one or more of these 17 Friday meetings, talk ..g about getting a certain number 18 of inspections per day per inspector on average?
19 A I can't honestly say that he did. .
20 Q Is that because you can't recall or is it because you're 21 certain he did not?
J 22 A I'm not certain that he didn't or that -- I just can't 23 recall.
24 Q All right, sir.
25 I want to direct your attention to your deposition
}
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
s Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5243 O
1 of January 28, '86, Mr. Holley.
2 In there, at Transcript 74, you were asked the 3 question, "Okay. About pressure to sacrifice quality 4 for production and costing considerations, are you aware 5 of any harassment or intimidation by any of those 6 supervisors against the Comstock inspectors?" Your 7 . answer: "Well, if you're making note or trying to say I 8 harassment or intimidation is trying to make us go out 9 and inspect as much as we can get done or giving us a t
10 quota on how much we had to do, at times they would say, 11 'Well, you have to get 10 inspections today or you have 12 to get 15 today,'" end quote. "That was said quite
. /~T U 13 often."
14 Do you recall giving that answer, Mr. Holley?
15 A Yeah; and I meant it in the context of, you know, on the 16 average, that's what -- you know, there's 10 inspectors 17 or there's 100 inspections, that's an average of 10 a 18 day, and that's what we have to -- we had to attain to 19 meet a certain deadline or to help with inspections.
20 Q All right, sir.
21 And that information was communicated to you by 22 supervision?
23 A Yeah -- well, like you said, o' r weekly u meetings we used 24 to have or our small group meetings that we had.
(} 25 Q Was Mr. DeWald present at those weekly meetings?
Sonntaa ReDortina Service, Ltd.
- Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
_.......-, .. _. ~ . , _ . . _ , _ -
s 5244 O
1 A For the most part, he was.
2 Q Now, Mr. Holley, you talked generally about your style, 3 and you compared it and contrasted it with a couple of 4 other people. -
5 I think you contrasted it once with Mr. Saklak and 6 said you had a different style than he does; correct?
7 A Yes.
8 Q You're a soft-spoken person, it seems?
9 A Yes.
10 Q I think you contrasted yourself, to some extent, with 11 Mr. Seeders.
12 Mr. Seeders, you said, was a -- you probably used O 13 the word -- he was direct, I think, is what you said?
14 A Yes, that's correct.
15 Q He was less soft-spoken than yourself; is that a fair 16 statement?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Okay.
19 He spoke his mind?
20 A Yes, he did.
21 -Q Okay.
V l 22 And he spoke his mind in a more public fashion than 23 yourself?
24 A Yes.
25' O Okay.
[}
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
> Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
==n... - . . - . , . . .- . - . - . . ~ --
5245 O
1 Your style, I understood from your testimony, is 2 you would like to -- you generally spoke one-on-one to a 3 person in private if you had a problem?
4 A I would prefer to do it that way, yes.
5 Q I think you recounted the fact that you talked to Mr.
6 DeWald on a number of occasions to bring to his 7 attention your observation about problems in the 8 department?
9 A That's correct.
10 Q Now, do you recall describing for me in your deposition 11 bringing to Mr. DeWald's attention, on one of those 12 occasions, the fact in your army experience you had gone
()
13 to your company commander with information about morale 14 problems in your -- in your unit?
15 A That's correct.
16 0 okay.
17 Can you recount for the Board what you said to Mr.
18 DeWald on that occasion?
19 A Oh, I let him know that there was a morale problem, and ,
20 I just wondered if there was something that could be 21 done. Maybe I could help because I had helped
/
22 previously.
23 0 What do you mean by that?
k 24 A By helping previously? i
(} 25 Q Yes.
i b
Sonntaa ReDortina Service, Ltd. !
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5246 O
1 A Well, like I tried to tell him, in the service I went to 2 our company commander about a morale problem, and I 3 guess, sort of as a joke, our company commander 4 appointed me cs morale NCO.
5 I took it a little bit more serious than he did, 6 and I organized a few parties and some outings and some 7 benefits that we had, and it worked out quite well. I 8 felt the morale really went up through it; and I thought 9 maybe I could do something to help the morale here. I 10 Q Did you suggest to Mr. DeWald that you could do i l
11 something similar at Comstock among the inspectors?
12 A Well, there might have been something to do. If there O 13 was anything I could do to help, I'd be more than happy
- 14 to.
15 Q It's a fact that Mr. DeWald said to you on that occasion 16 he just didn't think there was much of a morale problem?
17 A He didn't really feel that there was one, but -- you 18 know, he just didn't feel there was one.
19 Q In fact, Mr. DeWald was not very responsive to your 20 suggestion?
21 A Not at first, no.
I 22 At one of our meetings that I had with Mr.
23 DeWald -- I stopped after work one night to talk to him.
24 This was at 4:30. We sat and talked in his office until Y
{} 25 \ approximately 7:30 at night about the subject.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
L Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
- 1. .
5247 O
1 So he is very, you know -- he was very, you know --
2 you know, he accepted what I had to say and he listened 3 quite -- quite extensively.
4 Q On that occasion?
5 A On that occasion, yeah.
6 Q Do you recall when that was, approximately?
7 A No. I --
8 Q The middle of '84?
9 A I couldn't -- couldn't give a date.
P 10 Q All right.
11 Do you recall stating, when you were describing the 12 circumstance in your deposition, that in light of the 13 fact that Mr. De%ald was not responsive, that you just 14 stopped coming?
15 A Yeah, after several times, I just didn't go back and 16 talk to him no more.
17 Q And that was the state of affairs that existed at the 18 time that the 24 inspectors went to the NRC in March of 19 1985?
20 A I would say it -- it was -- it was pretty poor morale at 21 the time --
)
22 Q All right, sir.
23 A -- yes.
24 MR. GUILD: Mr. Chairman, that's all the 25 questions I have of Mr. Holley.
Sonntaa Reportina Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262 2 _ _ _m ... : - _ _ = - = --
. :- - -- . . . - - :-= . _ . - .
s 5248
, () -
1 Thank you, sir..
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Miss Chan?
3 MS. CHAN: May we have five minutes, please?
4 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Sure.
5 (WHEREUPON, a recess was had, after which 6 the hearing was resumed as follows:)
7 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. We're back in 8 session.
9 Miss Chan, your cross examination?
10 MS. CHAN: Mr. Holley, my name is Elaine 11 Chan. I'll be asking you a few questions on behalf of
, 12 the NRC Staff.
13 CROSS EXAMINATION 14 BY MS. CHAN:
15 Q I wanted to follow up on some of Mr. Guild's questions, 16 talking -- asking you about your talks with Mr. DeWald.
17 Can you tell us the first time you talked to Mr.
18 DeWald?
19 was that before or after Mr. Seeders had sent his 20 letter to Mr. DeWald?
21 A It was much before that. I can't say when, but it was 22 . much before.
23 0 In your testimony just before recess, you mentioned that 24 Mr. DeWald was not responsive to your discussions at 25 first.
[}
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
r Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5249
() ,
1 Was he ever responsive? -
2 A To some extent, yes.
3 Q Was that before or after Mr. Seeders' letter to Mr. '
4 DeWald?
5 A It was before. l 6 Q It was -- before he -- before the letter was sent, he 7 seemed to be more responsive?
8 A Yes. I don't -- I don't know if I ever talked to Mr.
9 Seeders -- or Mr. DeWald one-on-one after this incident 10 with Mr. Seeders. I don't know if I ever did or not, so 11 it would be a good guess that it was before.
12 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I'm not sure you completed
(:) 13 your answer as to when you were answering about his 14 being responsive.
15 Did you finish your answer or were you going to 16 tell us how or --
17 THE WITNESS: No. I --
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN: You had finished your 19 answer?
20 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
21 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Oh, okay.
22 BY MS. CHAN: '
23 Q Can you describe how Mr. DeWald was responsive?
24 What did he do?
9 25 Well, in one instance, I had to be blunt with the man,
(]} A.
i Sonntag Reoorting Service. Ltd. l
- Geneva, Illinois 60134 '
(312) 232-0262 1
s 5250 1 because he was not a very personable man, you know.
2 For example, when he would come in in the morning 3 into the office, he would walk up the stairs and people 4 would say, " Good morning, Irv," or, " Good morning, Mr.
5 DeWald," and he would sort of look at them and walk past 6 and never say nothing to them, like he always had a chip 7 on his shoulder or something.
8 At one of our meetings, I told him, "A lot of 9 people look down on you because of that."
10 After that particular meeting, for a week or two 11 weeks, when he would come in in the morning, he would 12 say, " Good morning." He'd sit down and chat with
~( 13 people. Then he sort of reverted back to his -- his old 14 self.
15 Q So what you meant by his being responsive was that after 16 you had spoken to him about his -- a little bit about 17 his personality --
18 A Yes.
19 Q -- and being a little more friendly to the inspectors, 20 he did respond at least for a short period?
21 A Yes, he did.
/
22 Q Earlier in your testimony, you had spoken about some 23 talks with Mr. DeWald when he had called you into his 24 office to talk about possibly increasing your i
{} 25 productivity in weld inspections.
l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262 ,
5251
()
1 Did you consider these pep talks?
2 A Not really. They were -- I can't really say they were a 3 warning or anything like that. He was just letting it 4 be known that my average of inspections was not quite up 5 to the average of the office, and he was just wondering 6 if there was a problem with what I was doing or I didn't 7 understand something and if, you know -- if there is 8 something that could be done that I could pick up my 9 production.
m 10 Q When you mentioned that Mr. DeWald said that your number 11 of inspections was not up to average, did he tell you 12 what he used to determine what average was?
O 13 A No, he didn't.
14 Q Do you have any idea what information Mr. Dewald used to 15 determine what the average number of inspections would 16 be?
17 A Oh, I would imagine the daily status reports that the 18 Leads and the supervisors compiled.
s 19 0 In your opinion, do y5u see anything wrong with 20 management setting goals or objectives for their 21 departments or employees?
Y, 22 A No, ma'am.
23 Q In your opinion, do you think it would be good 24 management practice for supervisors to discuss b,
(} 25 productivity with employees who they felt could do Sonntag Reportina Service, Ltd.
v Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5252 0
1 better?
2 A I t:. ink it's a -- something that should be done, yes.
3 0 I'd like to draw your attention now to the discussion of 4 Mr. Seeders' letter and your opinion that you thought 5 there might be some retaliation because such a letter 6 was put in writing.
7 Could you distinguish and axplain the difference 8 between the kind of letter chat Mr. Seeders wrote to Mr.
9 DeWald and going to the NRC to bring the same sort of 10 problem up?
11 A Well, there's really no distinction between them, 12 because it is -- both of them were very drastic.
13 But the fact that Mr. Seeders did it on his own, 14 compared to the twenty-some inspectors that went over as 15 a group, there was just -- well, I guess it was a little 16 bit more drastic, the group effort.
17 I still -- Mr. Seeders stated in his letter 18 about -- you know, very strongly; and my understanding 19 of our visit to the NRC, the 20 or so of us that went 20 over, was hopefully just to bring to light that there 21 was something happening and it might affect the quality 22 of the work, and we just wanted to see if they could 23 , have something done about it before the quality was 24 affected.
(} 25 Q Did you mean to say that you thought writing a letter, Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
L Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5253 O
1 such as Mr. Seeders did, was more drastic or risky than 2 going as a group to the NRC? ,
3 A Risky in what way?
4 I mean, risky to Mr. Seeders er --
5 Q Risky in respect to whether or not there would be any 6 retaliation.
7 A I believe there was probably more room for retaliation 8 on the individual basis than on a group basis.
9 Q You mentioned that going to the NRC would be a last 10 resort. j 11 Where would you go before one went to the NRC?
I 12 A We would try to do it through channels; you know, j 13 through our supervision and our management.
l 14 Q Did you personally do that before you went to the NRC? '
15 A Myself -- like I said, I did go to Mr. DeWald on a 16 couple of occasions, you know, telling him about the 17 morale of -- the problem of the office.
18 Q Mr. Holley, I'd like to show you a notice to employees 1
19 by the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission and 20 ask you if you've ever seen it before.
21 (Indicating.)
22 A Yes, I can tell you I have.
23 (Laughter.)
24 Q Do you recall seeing it posted on the site -- I 25 A Yes, it is posted.
[}
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
..< Geneva, Illinois 60134 l (312) 232-0262 i
l
5254 O
1 Q -- before you went to the NRC?
2 A Yes, it is posted.
3 Q So you were aware of your rights to go to the NRC?
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 MS. CHAN: Thank you.
6 MR. GUILD: Again, we need some clarity as to 7 which version of the notice is being referred to.
8 I understand counsel has a document in her hand, 9 which is probably in evidence.
10 The question is really whether that's, in fact, the 11 current version of the form.
12 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Is there a material 13 difference between the versions?
14 MR. GUILD: I submit that there is.
15 MS. CHAN: It's Applicant's Exhibit 39.
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Could you show it to the 17 witness, then?
18 MS. CHAN: (Indicating . )
19 THE WITNESS: I'm sure I've seen these all 20 because they are posted all over.
21 MS. CHAN: Thank you.
22 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Mr. Holley, you've seen that 23 exhibit now.
24 Is that the one that you're familiar with?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5255 l
O 1 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. ,
2 THE WITNESS: They are posted all over'the 3 plant and the offices.
4 MR. GUILD: Mr. Chairman, it's not material
~
5 to this witness' testimony necessarily, but there, in 6 fact, are at least two versions of that form.
7 They look the same. Both of them have the U. S. on 8 them, and the text changes. The text changes in some 9 fine particulars, which may not be material to this 10 examination.
11 It's just the record now remains unclear as to 12 which version of the form is, in fact, posted.
13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. That's fine.
14 If there is a material difference that is relevant 15 to the proceeding, you can bring it up some other way.
16 But I doubt that any witness would recollect which 17 version he saw at which time.
18 MR. GUILD: I think you're right.
~
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN: So you'd have to establish 20 that through independent means.
21 MR. GUILD: Yes, sir.
v 22 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Miss Kezelis, you may 23 redirect.
24 MS. CHAN: I have one more question for Mr.
25 Holley.
(
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5256 l O
1 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I'm sorry.
2 BY MS. CHAN:
3 Q Mr. Holley, regardless of which version of the notice 4 was posted at the time you went to the NRC, were you 5 aware that if you went to the NRC, that there were 6 protections against retaliation?
7 A Yes, ma'am.
8 MS. CHAN: Thank you.
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Miss Kezelis?
10 MS. KEZELIS: Thank you.
11 I have a very few questions of Mr. Holley.
12 Before I complete my examination of him, I would
_Q 13 like to move at this time for the admission into 14 evidence of Applicant's Exhibit No. 42.
15 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I also should h' ave mentioned 16 that so that we could get it -- is there any objection?
17 MR. GUILD: No objection.
18 MS. CHAN: No objection, Mr. Chairman.
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. Admitted.
20 (The document was thereupon received into 21 evidence as Applicant's Exhibit No. 42.)
22 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 23 BY MS. KEZELIS:
24 Q Mr. Holley --
{} 25 THE WITNESS: Can I ask what that was, just Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. ,
. Geneva, Illinois 60134 ;
, (312) 232-0262 ;
i
- _ ____.2, - _ __. . _ _ _ _ __
5257
. ()
1 out of curiosity?
2 MS. KEZELIS: For the record, that was a copy l l
3 of the memo from Mr. Seltmann to the backlog welding 4 configuration inspectors dated August 24, 1934.-
5 THE WITNESS: Okay. I was just curious.
6 BY MS. KEZELIS:
7 Q Mr. Holley, Mr. Guild asked you a few additional 8 questions about your transfer to Newberg.
9 That transfer, as you understand it, was 10 effectuated by BESTCO; is that correct?
11 A With efforts of -- you know, input from Comstock and 12 Commonwealth Edison, from my understanding.
13 Q All right.
14 So it was from all three, in effect?
15 A That's the way I understand it, yes.
16 Q Did you have any reason to believe that your transfer to 17 Newberg was retaliatory in any respect?
18 A No, I don't.
19 Q Okay.
20 You were also asked a line of questions by Mr.
21 Guild regarding Mr. Seltmann's supervision of the 22 special project in August of '84 to complete the 23 backlog.
24 What was the extent of Mr. Seltmann's
/
25 responsibility, as you understood it? ;
Sonntaa Recortina Service, Ltd.
~
. Geneva, Illinois 60134 1 (312) 232-0262
- . . = ; _= _ ,--_ _ _ __ _ -- -
5258 1 A He was, I guess, overviewing the -- the way it was being 2 handled, and he was the one responsible for asking us to 3 give up our training to make a concerted effort, and he 4 also helped compile the numbers as inspections were 5 being done.
6 Q All right.
7 Were day-to-day questions handled by Mr.
8 Worthington or Mr. Seltmann?
9 A By both, I would say.
10 0 Mr. Guild asked you a question about a memo you wrote to 11 Mr. Klatchko, Mr. Worthington and Mr. DeWald on June 20, 12 1984, regarding your request for cross-training.
13 Do you recall that?
14 A Yes, ma'am.
15 Q Okay.
16 Did you have any fear of retaliation when you wrote 17 that memo and handed it in? ,
18 A No, I did not.
19 Q Were you, in fact, retaliated against in any respect for 20 writing that memo and turning it in?
21 A Not to my knowledge, no.
O 22 0 1Eou were also asked a few questions about the Pearl 23 Harbor File.
24 In response to a question from Judge Grossman, you, 1
{} 25 I believe, agreed that the file or its contents might be Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
- Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262 9 6 +*e . &=- -e tu
zP 5259 1 damaging to someone else?
2 A It could have been, yes.
3 Q All right.
4 An example that you gave, in response to a question 5 from Mr. Guild, dealt with what has now been admitted 6 into evidence as Applicant's Exhibit No. 42.
7 You picked it up, if I recall correctly --
8 A Yeah.
9 0 -- and said, "This is something typical that could go 10 into the Pearl Harbor File."
11 Do you recall that?
12 A Yes.
O 13 Q Do you have a copy of it there?
14 A Yes, I do.
15 Q Can you explain to us, Mr. Holley, how a document like 16 that could be damaging to somebody else?
17 A I'm not saying that would be damaging, but it does -- it 18 says, "In order to compensate for this delay in getting 19 cross-training in other areas, a concerted effort will l
20 be made to allow extra training for the inspectors."
21 It's almost like a promise that these inspectors 22 that gave up their training would be given extra 23 training in order to catch up.
24 Q Okay.
V 25 And now referring specifically to Mr. Saklak and
{]}
l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
/ Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5260 0
1 what he put in his Pearl Harbor File, is there some way 2 that you can conceive of a memo like that being damaging 3 to somebody else?
4 A Not this particular one, no.
5 Q Did you have any particular example in mind when you 6 answered Judge Grossman's questions about documents 7 being damaging to someone else?
8 A No.
9 Like I said, I don't know what's in the file. I 10 never saw it.
11 I saw, you know, the way he treated the file as --
12 as he let an air on to be.
13 0 Let me ask you one more question about the Pearl Harbor 14 File and then we'll move on to another topic.
15 You had described it as a CYA file; is that 16 correct?
17 A Yes.
18 0 When you agreed that it might be damaging to somebody 19 else, did you mean that since it would cover Mr.
20 Saklak's bottom, it might expose somebody else's?
21 A That's possible, yes.
22 (Laughter.)
23 0 Would that be a fair characterization of how it could be 24 damaging --
J 25 A Yes.
i Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5261 0
1 0 -- or did you have something else in mind?
2 A No. That would be a --
~
3 Q That would be fair?
4 A -- a good, fair statement, yes.
5 Q All right.
6 You also testified that you talked to Mr. DeWald 7 about morale in response to questions from Miss Chan.
8 Did you feel retaliated against in any respect 9 because of raising those concerns of yours to'Mr.
10 DeWald?
11 A No, I don't.
12 Q You also testified that you went in to Mr. DeWald at one
() 13 point and suggested to him that he ought to say good 14 morning to his workers.
15 Do you recall that or words along those lines?
16 A Something along that line, yes.
17 0 Did Mr. DeWald retaliate against you for having made 18 that suggestion to him?
19 A No, no.
20 Q Let me ask you one quick question about Mr. Seeders' 21 letter of August 17, 1984. 1 22 You had been asked, in effect, to draw comparisons i 23 between your visit with the other 23 or so QC Inspectors 24 in March of 1985 to the NRC and Mr. Seeders' letter to
(} 25 Mr. DeWald, and which action was more or less drastic I
Sonntac ReDortina Service,'Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 i (312) 232-0262
i i
5262
() l 1 than the other.
2 Do you recall that?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Okay.
5 Were you aware that Mr. Seeders intended a copy of 6 his letter to go to the NRC?
7 A Well, let's see. He says copies are to go to Bob Schulz 8 of the NRC on the second page of the letter, so I 9 imagine that's one of the places --
10 Q So you would have been aware of that at that time?
11 A Yes. ,
12 Q Would you have understood, in light of your apparent O 13 familiarity with NRC postings, that that should have 14 protected Mr. Seeders from any retaliation?
15 A I would imagine it would, yes -- well, especially with 16 the form that she just gave me.
17 Q That's what I'm referring to. ,
18 A Yes.
19 Q That's the Form 3 from the NRC? ,,
20 A I don't know what form it is, but that's -- it's the one 21 that she just showed me, yes.
22 Q All right.
23 Miss Chan also asked you whether it was 24 appropriate, in your opinion, for supervisor.s to inquire 25 as to the individual productivity -- or I believe it was
[]}
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262 1 i
1
I 5263
.(
l actually to establish or suggest goals or objectives for 2 departments.
3 Do you recall that --
4 A Yes.
5 Q -- line of questioning?
6 Okay.
7 Your testimony was that there's nothing wrong with 8 that; isthatcorrec57 9 A No, I feel that it's a need of the management to do such 10 a thing.
11 Q All right.
12 Why is it that you feel the management should do 13 such a thing or should be entitled to do such a thing?
14 A It could be some -- some problem -- maybe the certain 15 individual doesn't understand what he's doing -- and it 16 might bring something to light that he doesn't 17 understand or there might be an easier way for him to do 18 it, you know. They might be able to bring something to 19 light.
20 Q Would it be fair to state that, in your opinion, it 21 would also be acceptable with respect to inspectors who 22 were goofing off?
23 A Yeah, you could probably find out if they were goofing 24 off.
(} 25 Q Did you have occasion to observe any inspectors goofing Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
. Geneva, Illinois 60134 )
(312) 232-0262 i l
5264 O
1 off?
2 A I would rather not say.
3 MS. KEZELIS: Well, Mr. Holley, I'm not 4 certain that you have the option; and I'll ask the Court 5 Reporter to repeat my question.
6 A (Continuing.) Okay.
7 There are instances where there are goof-offs no 8 matter where you work.
9 I mean, you might have an attorney in the back 10 sleeping that should be paying attention; just an 11 example.
12 (Laughter.)
13 BY MS. EEZELIS:
14 Q Did you have occasion to observe any QC Inspectors 15 sleeping?
16 A No.
17 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Let's state for the record 18 you pointed to people in the back of the room here.
19 (Laughter.)
20 THE WITNESS: I didn't mean nobody; ,just an 21 example.
C 22 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I was just kidding.
23 MS. KEZELIS: I believe that there is a 24 question of mine that still hasn't been answered, and s
{} 25 I'm going to ask the Court Reporter to read it again, Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
__ -m
5265 i
l O
1 because I'm not sure I can phrase it the way I did 2 before.
3 (The question was thereupon read by the 4 Reporter.)
5 MS. KEZELIS: I'll withdraw the question 6 that's pending and put another one to you, Mr. Holley.
7 BY MS. KEZELIS:
8 Q Did you have occasion to observe QC Inspectors goofing 9 off at Comstock?
10 A Oh, I'm sure I have, yes. ;
11 0 Can you recall the identities of any of them? ;
12 A No. I -- I could say that I've goofed off in the past.
C:) 13 I'd be lying if I said I didn't; but everybody would be 14 lying if they said they didn't.
15 Q The last question I have, Mr. Holley, is:
16 You testified that you had talked to Dewald -- Mr.
17 DeWald several times at least with respect to morale, 18 with respect to his demeanor when he came into the 19 office or the offices in the morning; is that correct?
20 A Yes, ma'am.
21 Q All right.
22 And you didn't suffer any retaliation from him --
23 A No, ma'am.
24 Q -- for any of those instances?
D 25 A No, ma'am. It was just very informal between me and
(]}
Sonntag Reportina Service. Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5266
( i 1 him.
2 Q Nevertheless, Mr. Holley, you did not at any time 3 approach Mr. DeWald with respect to any concern you may 4 have had about urgings by Comstock management for more 5 inspections, did you?
6 A Not to my recollection, no.
7 MS. KEZELIS: I have no further questions.
8 BOARD EXAMINATION 9 BY JUDGE GROSSMAN:
10 Q In response to a question now from Miss Kezelis, you 11 indicated that because of the NRC notice, that you would 12 not fear retaliation from sending such a letter, as Mr.
~
0 13 Seeders sent, if a copy was sent to the NRC.
14 My recollection is that earlier you had testified 15 that you thought the company might find some minor thing 16 to retaliate over.
17 Do you recall that?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 0 Are those two statements consistent?
20 A I hope so.
21 Q Okay.
L 22 So I understand, then, that you're saying that the 23 company wouldn't retaliate directly over the letter but 24 might find some other thing that they could retaliate 25 over; is that correct?
(])
Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
s Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5267 O
1 I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. I'm 2 trying to find a consistency there.
3 Is that it?
4 A Could I maybe make an example?
5 0 Okay. That's fine.
6 A What happened to Mr. Seeders, being released from the QC 7 Department -- I don't know the reason behind it, but I 8 would imagine it's because of this letter. You know, 9 that's my own personal opinion.
10 Q And you think that the reasons given were other than 11 because of the letter?
12 A Yes, sir.
() 13 Q And was that your impression at the time you saw his 14 letter, that something like that might happen?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay.
17 Mr. Guild?
18 RECROSS EXAMINATION 19 BY MR. GUILD:
20 Q Mr. Holley, the Form 3, as counsel for Staff has 21 referred to it, is posted on the site, to your 9
22 knowledge?
23 A Yes. ,
l 24 Q I'm holding up a document that's got a map of the United )
25
(]) States on it.
l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
- Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5268
)
1 (Indica ting . )
2 A Yes.
3 Q Have you ever read it?
4 A Yes, sir; several times. It's part of our required 5 reading.
6 Q All right, sir.
7 And what activities are protected on the part of 8 Comstock inspectors as are reflected in that notice to 9 employees?
10 A Our pro:ection?
11 Q Right.
12 What do you understand is protected, according.to -
(]} 13 that notice?
14 A Our right to be an inspector and to make a judgment on 15 certain inspections, and our protection if we find 16 something wrong, that we shouldn't be, as stated,
~
17 retaliated against.
18 You know, I can't quote the form --
19 0 It's not a quiz. It's just a question of what you 20 understand your protections to be, Mr. Holley.
21 Are there any other actions that are protected, 4
22 aside from the ones you've just mentioned?
23 A I'm sure there are.
24 I can't --
P
(} 25 0 Are there any --
Sonntag Heporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5269 O
1 A I can't recall everything in the form.
2 Q I'm not asking you to do that so much as to ask you what 3 your understanding is of your protections.
4 All right.
5 What happens, as you understand it, if you take one 6 of those actions, and because of one of those actions, 7 the company does retaliate against you, say, by holding 8 over your head some minor deficiency in your work or 9 holding over your head your absenteeism or something of 10 that sort?
11 What happens?
12 A Nothing as far as I'm concerned.
O 13 Q Do you know what kind of remedies you have?
14 What would you do, as you understand your 15 protection, if some retaliation came on you for 16 exercising the rights that you've stated you have?
17 A I don't feel that -- we could probably go to the NRC and 18 say we feel we've been retaliated against, but if it's ,
19 something small and minor -- you know, as you stated, ,
20 absenteeism or something -- that's something that we 21 have to -- they could -- if they could get rid of us or 22 retaliate against us because of something minor like 23 that, they could do it even if there wasn't no other 24 meaning.
25 I mean, if that's what they're going to do to us,
(]) l Sonntaa Renortina Service, Ltd.
. Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5270 1 they could do it if they were retaliating or not, s o --
2 Q But they might take that action because they were 3 motivated to retaliate against you for exercising your 4 rights?
5 A Oh, they might, yes.
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Excuse me.
7 I'm not sure you're clear as to whether you think 8 in that case the NRC would do something to protect you 9 or would not do something to protect you.
10 THE WITNESS: Well, if -- I would say if the 11 evidence was clear that there was retaliation, I'm sure 12 they would do something to protect us.
O 13 But if, let's say, I went to the NRC with a 14 problem, hypothetically, and management found out about 15 it and later on they fired me because of my absenteeism, 16 I don't think I would -- you know, I might go to the 17 NRC, but if there's no evidence that they fired me 18 because of my first going to the NRC, I don't think 19 there's anything that can be done about it.
20 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay.
21 BY MR. GUILD:
22 -Q Do you know whether the NRC protected Mr. Seeders?
23 A I couldn't say, i 24 Q Did Mr. Seeders get his QC job back?
25 O A ne.s stt11 in Engineering.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
> Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262 1
- - _______-_____ _______________ _______ _ _ _ _ _ j
5271 l O
1 Q Do you know whether Mr. Seeders went to the NRC after 2 he --
3 A I don't know if he did or not --
4- Q -- wrote his letter?
5 A -- in all honesty.
6 Q His letter went to Mr. Schulz, the resident inspector?
7 A That's what it says, yes.
8 Q Do you know what happened -- what happened to Mr.
9 Puckett, Mr. Worley Puckett?
10 A From my understanding, he was let go because he wasn't 11 living up to his -- his title of being a --
12 '
JUDGE GROSSMAN: Excuse me.
O 13 Mr. Guild, are you going into another area now?
14 MR. GUILD: I don't believe I am, Judge.
15 If the Staff and the Applicant maintain that 16 there's a freedom to raise concerns because of the ,
17 existence of the notice of employees' rights --
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN: But we're not interested in 19 his opinion. We're interested in his opinion in the ;
20 past.
21 MR. GUILD: Indeed, Judge; and that's the 22 point of my questions.
23 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I'm sorry. I cut off that 24 answer.
1 25 I'll let you go just so far, though, Mr. Guild. I
({}
sonntaa nanortina Harvice. Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
. 5272 O
1 think you're breaking new ground now.
2 MR. GUILD: It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, 3 that it's relevant.
4 I don't mean to enter the substance of this --
5 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay.
6 Could you repeat the question and the partial 7 answer before I said something, please?
8 (The record was thereupon read by the 9 Reporte r . )
10 A (Continuing.) -- of being a Level III welding engineer 11 or technician or inspector or whatever it was.
12 BY MR. GUILD:
O 13 Q Were you aware in 1984, Mr. Holley, that after Mr.
14 Puckett was terminated, he maintained that his 15 termination was in retaliation for having raised safety 16 and quality concerns regarding the welding program?
17 A Through newspaper articles and, you know, talk around 18 the -- the office, that's -- that's --
19 Q Lay -- I'm sorry. Complete your answer.
20 A That's what, you know, the opinion -- or my opinion is; 21 that, you know, that's what he was trying to -- to 22 contend that that's why he was released. ,
Lay aside the newspaper articles, Mr. Holley. !
23 Q 24 Did you arrive at that opinion that Mr. Puckett
,J 25 maintained that his termination was retaliatory from
(])
Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
r Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5273 O
1 talk around the office among the QC Inspectors?
2 A Could you sort of clarify that?
3 Q Sure, i
4 I don't want to know what you learned through the 5 ,
newspapers, and so I'm asking you to set to one side 6 what information may have come from that source.
7 I want to ask you whether or not you had any 8 understanding about Mr. Puckett's allegation that he had 9 been terminated in retaliation for raising complaints 10 about the welding program -- whether any of that 11 understanding came from your fellow inspectors or from 12 other sources on the job.
O 13 A Well, I could say Mr. Puckett was, you know -- maybe I'm 14 out of line, but the welding inspectors that were around 15 when Mr. Puckett was here really respected his -- his 16 professionalism and his background and really felt that 17 he was doing a good job.
18 When he was let go, a lot of people, you know, 19 brought to their own mind, "Why was he let go?"
20 There was talk, like I said, that was going on 21 around the office.
s 22 Q All right, sir.
23 A But, you know, no talk was coming from anybody but just 24 inspectors, just shop talk.
25 Q All right, sir.
/}
Sonntag Renorting Service. Ltd.
,. Geneva, Illinois 60134 i (312) 232-0262
5274 O
1 Now, my question, then, is:
2 Are you aware of whether the NRC protected Mr.
3 Puckett?
4 A What happened to him after he had lef t, you know, other 5 than what I've heard -- I don't know what involvement 6 the NRC had or the NLRB or whatever.
7 Q All right.
8 Did Mr. Puckett get his job back at Comstock? .
9 A Oh, I wouldn't know. I -- he -- I've never seen him 10 again since he's left.
11 Q He hasn't returned to the position of Level III at 12 Comstock?
O 13 A No, he hasn't.
14 MR. GUILD: That's all the questions I have.
15 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I'm sorry.
16 Miss Chan?
17 RECROSS EXAMINATION 18 BY MS. CHAN:
19 Q Mr. Holley, do you know what the NRC did after it had 20 received Mr. Seeders' letter?
21 A No, I don't.
1 22 0 Do you know what actions the NRC took after Mr. Puckett 23 went to speak to them?
24 A No, I don't.
(} 25 MS. CHAN: Thank you.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
5275 1 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Miss Kezelis?
2 MS. KEZELIS: I have no questions.
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Thank you very much, Mr.
4 Holley.
5 You're excused now.
6 THE WITNESS: Okay.
7 Can I ask a question?
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Do you want to ask one on 9 the record?
10 Certainly, 11 THE WITNESS: No. It could be off the 12 record. I don't care.
.- 13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Is it related to what we're 14 talking about here? .
15 THE WITNESS: It's just some of my 16 curiosities that --
17 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. Then we'll go off the I l
18 record. )
19 (Thete followed a discusion outside the 20 record.)
21 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Back on the record.
V 22 Mr. Holley, we would like you not to discuss what 23 your testimony was here with anyone else --
24 THE WITNESS: Okay.
J
{} 25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -- until the --
Monntag Reporting Service. Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
\
5276
() 1 THE WITNESS: No pillow talk with my wife?
2 (Laughter.)
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, except for your wife, s
4 then.
5 MR. GALLO: Just no shop talk.
6 (Witness excused.)
7 JUDGE GROSSMAN: We'll now recess until 2:00 8 o' clock on Monday afternoon.
9 (WHEREUPON, at 11:40 A. M., the hearing of 10 above-entitled matter was continued to 11 the 23rd day of June, 1986, at the hour 12 of 2:00 P. M.)
() 13 14 15 16 -
17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
()
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. _
veneva, 11Alnois oulae (312) 232-0262
NO PAGE NUMBER
'I j 1 CERTIFICATE OF OFFICIAL REPORTER tO This is to certify that the attached proceedings before l the UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION in the
- matter of:
i NAME OF PROCEEDING: Braidwood Station i Units 1 & 2
. Commonwealth Edison Company (Evidentiary Hearing) ,
I I
i l DOCKET NO.: 50-456/467-OL l PLACE: Joliet, Illinois
' l DATE: Friday, June 20, 1986 i
i were held as herein appears, and that this is the original
- transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
i !
l (sigt) A i
(TYPED) Nancy! J. kohp j ,
Official Reporter Reporter's Affiliation i
i O
4 \
__ - ____ _ _ _ _ _ _ - _ _ _ _ - - _ _ _ _ - _ _ _ _ _ - _ - - _ _ - - _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ -