ML20204J461
| ML20204J461 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Braidwood  |
| Issue date: | 08/05/1986 |
| From: | Atomic Safety and Licensing Board Panel |
| To: | |
| References | |
| CON-#386-313 OL, NUDOCS 8608110095 | |
| Download: ML20204J461 (116) | |
Text
O RIGINAl_
o a
UN11ED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION IN THE MATTER OF: DOCKET NO:
BRAIDWOOD STATION 50-456/457-OL ,
UNITS 1 8 2 COMMONWEALTH EDISON COMPANY O
LOCATION: J0LIET, ILLIN0IS PAGES: 9695 - 9808 DATE: TUESDAY, AUGUST 5, 1986 POI C(l ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
444i Ca 01 (Teet Washington,b.C. 20001 (202)347-3700 0600110099 060U05 6 l'Dit ADOCK 0500 NATION %1DE COVERACE
9695
(~')
V 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3 BEFORE THE ATOMIC SAFETY AND LICENSING BOARD 4
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _x 5 :
In the Matter of: :
6 : Docket No. 50-456 OL COMMONWEALTH EDISON COMPANY : 50-457 OL 7 :
(Braidwood Station, Units 1 :
8 and 2) :
________________;_x 9
10 Pages 9695 - 9808 11 College of St. Francis 500 North Wilcox Street 12 Joliet, Illinois 60435 13 Tuesday, August 5, 1986.
14 The hearing in the above-entitled matter reconvened 15 at 2:10 P. M.
16 17 BEFORE:
18 JUDGE ilERBERT GROSSMAN, Chairman Atomic Safety and Licensing Board 19 U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission nachington, D. C.
20 JUDGE RICilARD F. COLE, Member, 21 Atomic Safety and Licensing Board U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission 22 Washington, D. C.
23 JUDGE A. DIXON CALLIHAN, Member, Atomic Safety and Licensing Board 24 U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission Washington, D. C.
\- APPEARANCES:
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, 1111nois - 60114 (312) 232-0262 1
9696 O
1 ,
On behalf of the Applicant:
2 MICHAEL I. MILLER, ESQ.
3 EL EN A Z . KEZELIS, ESQ.
Isham, Lincoln & Beale 4 Three First National Plaza Chicago, Illinois 60602 5
On behalf of the Nuclear Regulatory 6 Commission Staff:
7 ELAINE I. CH AN , ESO.
GREGORY ALAN BERRY, ESQ.
8 U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission 7335 Old Georgetown Road 9 Bethesda, Maryland 20014 10 on behalf of the Intervenors:
11 ROBERT GUILD, ESO.
CE) 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 l
22 23
- 24 25 i (
- )
) Sonntao ReRortina Service, Ltd.
' Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9697 i I v
1 EXHIBIT INDEX Marked Received 2 Applicant's Exhibit No.105 9759 9788 Applicant's Exhibit No. 106 9763 9788 3 Applicant's Exhibit No. 107 9766 9788 Applicant's Exhibit No. 108 9768 9788 4
5 TESTIMONY OF LAWRENCE A. PERRYMAN 6 (Continued) 7 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) 8 BY MR. GUILD: 9719 9 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. MILLER: 9744 10 CROSS EXAMINATION 11 BY MR. BERRY: 9788 12 BOARD EXAMINATION
(~)s
(_ BY JUDGE COLE: 9796 13 BOARD EXAMINATION 14 BY JUDGE CALLIHAN: 9797 15 BOARD EXAMINATION BY JUDGE COLE: 9799 16 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 17 BY MR. GUILD: 9800 18 RECROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. MILLER: 9804 19 RECROSS EXAMINATION 20 BY MR. BERRY: 9806 21 REDIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)
BY MR. GUILD: 9806 22 23 24 25
(~)
Sonnt_ag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60114 (312) 232-0262
9698 O
1 JUDGE GROSSMAN: The hearing is reconvened.
2 This is the 48th day of hearing. I believe we have some 3 preliminary matters.
4 Mr. Guild?
5 MR. GUILD: Yes, sir, Mr. Chairman, a couple.
6 First, with regard to the Commission's request for 7 the Board's further explanation of the proposal to issue 8 a subpoena for the testimony of a witness, identified by 9 Intervenors, at our request, we had understood the 10 Chairman to suggest that filings from the parties might 11 be entertained.
12 Such a filing is in preparation, but I gather that 13 the Board anticipates filing with the Commission its 14 response to that Commission order today or sooner than 15 we can get in your hands a filing.
16 In that event, if I might, Judge, take a moment to 17 state this party's position for the record, whatever use 18 it may be.
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN: That's fine.
20 However, I don't know that the Commission 21 distinguishes between the subpoena and the request of 22 the Board or the notice of intent to disclose.
23 MR. GUILD: Indeed, yes.
24 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I would think it would be 25 entirely appropriate for you to file directly with the
(])
Sonntag_ Reporting Servine,_ktsl.
Coneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
l 9699 O
1 Commission, as you certainly are permitted to do with 2 regard to the question of disclosure.
3 MR. GUILD: Yes. "We certainly intend to 4 file, pursuant to the policy statement, the brief that 5 is invited at the time it's due, and that's some few 6 days yet to come.
7 But independently, of course, it seems that the 8 Commission has asked the Board to further elaborate on 9 the basis for the proposed action, issuing the subpoenn.
10 We do see that as an independent matter, and we 11 wanted to address that to the Board on the record.
12 We anticipate making a filing tomorrow or the next 13 day; but if I could be heard briefly today, I think I 14 can hit the essential points of our position.
15 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, okay.
16 Let me just say that we've decided that the 17 issuance of the subpoena would be appropriate. I think 18 I've said that on the record, so you really don't have 19 to persuade us --
20 MR. GUILD: Right.
- 21 JUDGE GROSSMAN
- -- to do that.
22 The question is to persuade the Commission that. it 23 is the correct course of action that the Board is
! 24 cmbarking on.
() 25 MR. GUILD: I guess it's more to communicate i
l Sonntag Reporting _ Service, Ltd.
I Geneva, Ilfinois 60 f'3 4 (312) 232-0262
i j 9700 0
1 to the Board what we think the appropriate step is.
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. Go ahead and see if 2
3 you can help us on that.
j 4 MR. GUILD: All right. ,
J~
5 My only point is this, Judge: We think that it's a 6 very narrow question that's before this Licensing Board 7 and that the Commission appropriately is asking for I 8 further comment from this Licensing Board on; that is, 9 only the narrow question of the entitlement of f
l 10 Intervenors for a subpoena as we sought for the 11 testimony of this witness.
4 12 Let me make a couple points.
13 First, the rule appears to be very clear, 10 CFR j 14 2.720; that as is customarily under the decision of the j 15 Federal Rules, the issuance of a subpoena is essentially
- 16 a ministerial act.
-l
- 17 It doesn' t require -- nor does it seek -- a l 18 weighing of the merits or a decision on the value or 19 admissibility of the evidence that might flow f rom a 20 witness who is the subject of the subpoena that is to be l
21 decided later.
f I 22 The limits of the Licensing Board's authority, when 23 faced with a subpoena request, are to inquire only into l
24 the general relevance of the testimony sought to the 25 subject matter; and there is an express prohibition l (])
S_opn.taa Reportino Service, Ltd.
I, Geneva, Illinois 60134
- (312) 232-0262
9701 0
1 against weighing questions of admissibility of that 2 evidence.
3 Further, we're talking about at this juncture a
.; 4 subpoena to compel the testimony of a witness in the 5 nature of discovery.
6 It's discovery that's prompted by newly-discovered 7 facts, if you will, facts that have come to this party's 8 attention, as we've stated on the record, through the 9 source of the memorandum that's been referred to.
j 10 So we think that it's not even a question of r
11 considering the testimony of this witness in the 12 proceeding as evidentiary testimony but simply allowing 13 a party to an NRC licensing proceeding access to 14 compulsory process for purpose of discovering 15 potentially relevant evidence.
16 We believe that for this Board to deny Intervenora l
17 an opportunity to have access to compulsory process to
, 18 make our case would be a serious deprivation of due 19 process. We simply have to have access to compulsory 20 process particularly in this case in order to obtain 21 discovery.
22 The individual involved, whose name I won't 23 mention, is obviously not under the employ of any of the 1
24 parties. Therefore, we can't obtain informal discovery.
25 It's not a question of Applicant being recalcitrant --
(]}
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9702 m
\
1 or the Staf f -- in not making available evidence.
2 It is a nonparty subpoena, and compulsory process 3 - i_s simply the only way that we can determine whether 4 there is indeed admissible evidence that might be 5 discovered through a deposition of this witness.
6 As to the question, then, we think the only 7 question before the Board and the only question 8 appropriate for the Commission to consider is the 9 general relevance of the proposed testimony to the 10 subject matter.
11 I think the papers speak for themselves. The gS 12 identity of the individual doesn't need to be repeated V
13 here.
14 It's simply enough to suggest that in a contention 15 where production pressure, harassment and the lack of 16 independence of quality assurance and quality control of 17 the electrical contractor is in issue, it can hardly be 18 doubted that the proposed deposition testimony of this 19 individual that's sought by subpoena is not relevant 20 generally to the subject matter. It clearly is.
21 We think that's all that's in issue, and we don't 22 think that it's appropriate for the Commission to invite 23 nor for the Licensing Board to put before the Commission 24 essentially all of the evidence that's been adduced in
() 25 this hearing to determine what level of relevance the Sonntaq Reportina Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312)'232-0262
r 9703 a
1 proposed evidentiary testimony from this individual 2 might have.
3 It's simply a much lower threshold and a much 4 narrower issue and, we believe, only really the issue of 5 the Intervenors' access to the ministerial device of 6 compulsory process.
7 That's really, in a nutshell, what I wanted to say, 8 Mr. Chairman.
9 Having reflected over the weekend on the matter, 10 while the Commission's order appears to invite wholesale 11 certification of the record -- because certainly there 12 are many, many references that support the general 13 -
relevance of this testimony -- we think it's really a 14 very narrow point and simply requires reference to the 15 fact of this individual's prior connection to L. K.
16 Comstock Company.
17 JUDGE GEOSSMAN: Okay. You haven' t added 18 anything to what we have in there.
19 You might also recognize that in support of the 20 fact that it's a ministerial act, under the Federal 21 Rules, the Clerk of the Court issues the subpoenas and 22 does it in blank --
23 MR. GUILD: Yes.
24 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -- really confirming that
(} 25 part.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, IITfnois 6~0TR (312) 232-0262
9704 O
1 We've pointed that out to the Commission. I don' t 2 think there's anything that you've said here that would 3 add to what we have put before the Commission.
4 Now, reflecting on the order, the last -- I guess 5 the order is public, and you've all received it; is that 6 correct?
7 MR. GUILD: The Commission order, Judge?
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Yes.
9 MR. MILLER: Yes.
10 MR. GUILD: We received it Friday.
11 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I only had read to me on the 12 phone the last few sentences, and it appeared as though 13 the Commission wanted a certification of everything 14 relevant, just from reading that.
15 But having read the whole order, it appears that 16 what the Commission wants is the record citations and 17 all of the other documents that pertain specifically to 18 the matter involving the alleger.
19 So we've started with Pages 4545; and we've now 20 asked Applicant, who has someone indexing, for all the 21 other pages in which we discussed this matter.
22 But we certainly don't intend to invite other 23 record citations to matters which would show that this 24 matter is relevant or not relevant to the remainder of
() 25 the record.
Sonntancentting_Ecalve,_LtL Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9705 O
1 I think that would be a monumental task now, and 2 that's not what the Commiscion is asking for.
3 So I don't really think there's much to discuss 4 now, except we will take further record citations in a 5 few minutes when Applicant has that prepared, and we'll 6 call it in to add to our certification of the record to 7 the Commission.
8 But otherwise, our pleading or our memorandum is 9 ready to go to the Commission, and I would invite the 10 parties to brief this matter to the Commission, since 11 the Commission believes that the subpoena is intertwined 12 with the question of disclosure of an OI investigation, 13 for which the parties are entitled to brief the 14 Commission.
15 I would expect you would have a briefing on the 16 subpoena, if you wish, and also on that further question 17 as to whether the Board should be authorized to disclose
! 18 the contents of that investigation, j 19 Now, Mr. Miller.
20 MR. MILLER: Your llonor, I just have a point 21 of inquiry, really. I don't see any reason to further l 22 burden this record with our arguments. The Board has 23 heard them and has acted.
)
24 Dut will the partien be given a copy of the filing 25 that you are making with the commission --
(])
J Sonn_ tag Reporting Service, Ltd.
i Geneva, f11TnoE 601T4
! (312) 232-0262
9706 O
1 JUDGE GROSSMAN: No.
2 MR. MILLER: -- or is that also in camera?
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN: You see, when the Commission 4 has issued its order -- and I believe in the past we've 5 had another document coming out from Staff -- they 6 haven't had to resort to the record. As a matter of 7 fact, they' re speaking outside the record, so there's 8 nothing confidential..
9 But in responding to the Commission, we have had to 10 specifically discuss the matters; and, therefore, we can 11 only do it confidentially --
12 MR. MILLER: I see.
13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -- or else we'll be accused 14 of disclosing confidential material without the 15 Commission's approval. So we can't give it to you.
16 But basically on the basis for issuing the subpoena 17 -- I think Mr. Guild has put his finger on what the 18 Board's arguments are, and so you can respond to that.
19 Now, Mr. Berry, do you have something to say?
. 20 MR. BERRY: No, I don't, your Honor. Staff's 21 position is represented by the Office of General Counsel 22 in this matter, and so --
23 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay, fine. They're issuing 24 the pleadings and memoranda on behalf of OI, so that's 25 fine.
(])
B on n t a_g_R e po tt ing_S e r v i c t ,_L t d .
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
. 9707 i
O 1 So I guess we're ready to go on to the witness, 2 unless Applicant already has the list of record 3 citations. Then I can make the call first.
4 MR. GUILD: I have one other preliminary 5 matter, Judge, that might take a moment.
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Sure.
7 MR. GUILD: With the Board's permission, 8 Counsel met on Friday to discuss a number of matters, 9 and we hope we can report f avorably to the Board that we 10 are going to be stipulating to the testimony of two 11 witnesses and hopefully saving a couple more -- two or 12 more days' worth of testimony.
13 The parties have agreed that the deposition 14 testimony will be accepted for Messrs. Klatchko and 15 Stout, who were to be -- who have been designated as 16 Intervenors' witnesses and would have been otherwise 17 called.
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN: The whole depositions?
19 MR. GUILD: Yes, sir, the whole depositions.
20 It's at this juncture preferable, I think, among 21 all the parties -- and we hope it won' t be too much of a 22 burden to the Board -- that instead of parsing them as 23 narrowly as they might otherwise be parsed, essentially 24 both sides examined the witnesses and either in the
() 25 depositions or otherwise in the record we've made Service, Ltd.
Sonntag Geneva, Reporting 1TTIn~51s 601T4 (312) 232-0262
J 9708 1 essentially our cases on those witnesses.
2 So we ask that the entire depositions of both 3 Messrs. Klatchko and Stout-be --
4 MR. MILL ER : They are not lengthy 5 depositions.
6 MR. GUILD: -- received.
7 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I'm sorry, Mr. Miller?
8 MR. MILL ER : I say they are not lengthy 9 depositions.
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay, fine.
11 JUDGE COLE: So we'll get copies of those?
12 MR. GUILD: We'll offer them formally at some p%)
13 point for the record, but it's our position now that 14 they will be stipulated to.
15 I understand they've been served on the parties and 16 they're matters of record. If we can avoid having to
! 17 Xerox full sets of them, we would like to, if that's 18 possible.
, 19 MR. MILLER : I thought we had available a 20 full set of deposition transcripts to the Board.
1 21 Is that not correct?
22 JUDGE COLE: I think we have one set over 23 here, but -- t 3
i 24 MR. GUILD: We'll be happy to make copies, if
(} 25 that's the Board's pleasure, and have them marked as Sonntac Repattino Services _Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
~
]
9709 b
v 1 exhibits.
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay.
3 That leaves two more QC Inspectors: Bossong and 4 Perryman; is that correct?
5 MR. MILLER: Yes.
6 MR. GUILD: Yes.
7 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Then we'll be through with 8 that, and we'll go cn to Intervenors examining adverse 9 witnesses -- or, at least, not their own witnesses --
10 from Staff and Applicant; is that correct?
11 MR. GUILD: Yes, a number of managerial-level g 12 employees and Staff employees who are yet to be b 13 examined.
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, I don't see "a number" 15 on my list. I only see O'Connor and Shewski.
16 MR. MILL ER : Correct.
17 MR. GUILD: That's two, and Schulz and 18 McGregor. I don' t have my list in f ront of me.
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Schulz and McGregor -- those 20 are the NRC ones?
21 MR. GUILD: Right. I don't have my list in 22 f ront of me, but I assume that's the complete list.
23 Then we have our two remaining experts that we're going 24 to try to fit in.
25 But Klatchko and Stout were the only two remaining
(]}
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9710
(
1 -Quality Control Inspectors, and they will not be called 2 live to testify.
i 3 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. So why don't we now
~
4 call Mr. -- is Mr. Bossong here?
5 MR. GUILD: No. We have Mr. Perryman on the 6 stand. We interrupted his examination.
7 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I thought we --
8 MR. BERRY: Before we do that, your Honor,
! 9 I'd just like the record to reflect that as of today, I 10 served on counsel for the parties and the Board the 11 f ruits of the Staff's search for additional documents 12 responsive to outstanding discovery ~ requests.
)
13 The documents themselves have been served on the 14 parties, and the covering letter has been served on the I 15 Board.
16 MR. MILLER: Your Honor, I haven't had a 4
17 chance to examine the documents in any detail.
- 18 Just having scanned the list of documents that have 1
4 19 been provided, it's somewhat disappointing -- more than 1 20 somewhat disappointing to see that some of the documents 1 '
j 21 date back to September of 1985.
i 22 All of them deal with --
j 23 JUDGE GROSSMAN: '84?
l 24 MR. MILLER: '84. I beg your pardon; 25 September of 1984.
/}
1 i Sonnta.q Reportina Service, Ltd.
) Geneva, Illinois 60134 j (312) 232-0262
9711 1 All of them deal with witnesses -- at least, QC 2 Inspectors -- who have now come and gone before this 3 Board.
4 In one sense there's no point in crying over 5 spilled milk, but I think that all of the parties and 6 the Board are entitled to the representation that this 7 is it and that there will not be additional key 8 documents come dribbling in.
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, I don't want that to 10 be taken that if there are others, they will no longer 11 be disclosed.
s 12 MR. MILLER: Oh, no.
~
13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I think we ought to have had 14 everything prior to this, and whatever else there is we 15 want, also.
16 But there ought to be a concerted effort made to 17 discover everything within the files that's relevant to 18 the case here.
19 Well, I assume that the parties will have something l
20 appropriate to say about the first full paragraph after 21 the listing in this memorandum, because it is obvious to t
22 me that the completion of the pending investigation is 23 going to be long after we've concluded any business we 24 have.
(} 25 MR. BERRY: Mr. Chairman, on that particular l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
' Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262 i
9712 0
1 point -- that would be Allegation No. Region 2 III-86-A-0079 -- I can state that the alleger, this 3 particular alleger, has already testified and has 4 completed his testimony.
5 I understand it's a recent allegation that's been 6 received by the Staff within the last two months. The 7 inspection of this is in progress, and I'm informed that 8 it should be completed within the next couple of weeks.
9 Anticipating that point, though, I did make copies 10 of the files of these particular documents. I do.have 11 them with me in the event we' re directed by the Board to 12 produce them, although we believe that this 13 investigation is in progress now and is nearing 14 completion.
15 We expect that it will be completed soon, and at 16 that time we would make available the documents. In the 17 event -- as I said, in the event that the Board directs 18 us to disclose them now, I'm prepared to do so.
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Of course, we have to look 20 at those documents, and then we'll undoubtedly have to 21 have a briefing with OI.
22 MR. BERRY: Oh, it's not an OI investigation.
23 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Oh, it isn't?
24 MR. BERRY: No, it's not an OI investigation.
25 MR. MILLER: I don't know why the usual form
(]}
Sonntaa Reportina Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9713 O
1 of protective order can't be invoked and the documents 2 turned over now.
3 MR. GUILD: I don't even see a claim of 4 confidentiality, Judge, so I don't know of any basis in 5 law, even with a protective order, for withholding 6 documents that have been the subject of long-standing 7 discovery requests.
8 I don't know whether there's any motion that's i'
9 required of this party. We have an outstanding 10 discovery request and simply a naked refusal to produce 11 documents.
12 MR. BERRY: The documents are subject to an 13 ongoing investigation.
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, the problem is that 15 the Commission's policy statement only protects OI 16 investigations.
17 I'm not absolutely certain about that, but I'm sure 18 you've discussed this with your superiors, Mr. Berry, 19 and they've told you what your first line and second 20 line and third line of def enses are on this.
21 (Laughter.)
22 I take it they would prefer, first, no disclosure; 23 but, secondly, if you have to, disclosure to the Board 24 only; then if you have to, I guess disclosure to all the 25 parties, because you don't have a legal basis for
(]}
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9714 ;
I 4
1 withholding it.
2 But I think maybe the Board ought to take a look at 3 it first, and then we'll discuss it further with you.
i 4 So if you have copies, we'll look at that tonight and 5 we'll discuss it -- what we have to -- tomorrow morning.
6 MR. BERRY: Very well, your Honor. Thank 7 you.
8 MR.' GUILD: Judge, I'm sorry to be a l 9 stick-in-the-mud, but I really object to that process.
i j 10 It should be up to the adversaries to process discovery 11 information and, at least in the first instance, subject 12 to the Board deciding that they' re withholding something 13 from you, deciding on our own behalf what we think is 14 relevant and should be considered in the case.
15 I don' t know why Mr. Berry has to screen documents 16 -- I don' t mean him personally, but why the NRC Staff l 17 has to screen relevant documents f rom the parties.
18 I have no ob.iection to a protective order, but they 19 haven't even asked for one.
20 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, I think you're 21 entitled to have Staff tell you what their position is 22 with regard to withholding the documents, what their 23 legal position is.
l l 24 So, Mr. Berry, you can have the floor.
25 MR. BERRY: The legal basis is that it's the
(]}
l l
l Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9715 1 subject of an ongoing investigation. Under Staff 2 regulations, Exemption 7A, additional disclosure would 3 compromise and impede an ongoing investigation.
4 Under the regulations we are entitled to assert 5 that as a basis for withholding documents. We haven't 6 put forward that, I guess, as having asserted that as to 7 the reason here certainly in the covering letter, 8 because we anticipate that the investigation will be 9 completed within the next week to two weeks and that at 10 that time the documents will be made available. That 11 would be the basis that the investigation is still in 12 progress.
13 It's a recent allegation received within the last 14 two months, raised by one of the inspectors that 15 attended the March 29, 1985, meeting, an inspector that 16 has testified in this proceeding, and it relates to an 17 allegation that he made subsequently.
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Relating to subsequent 19 matters or to matters that were existing --
l l 20 MR. BERRY: Subsequent matters, new matters.
21 It's knowledge -- well, it's not unrelated to just 22 the general allegations set forth in the contention, f 23 which is why the Staff identified it as responsive. It l
l 24 does not relate to allegations raised at the March 29th i
! 25 meeting or regarding any event occurring in that time
(]}
l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 l (312) 232-0262 l
i _ _ _ _ _ _ -.__- , . _ . _ . . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
9716 O
v 1 frame.
2 These are incidents that occurred in May or June, I 3 believe, of 1986. It's a diff erent incident which the 4 certain inspector went to the NRC on, and the Staff is 5 in the process of completing its investigation into 6 that.
7 As I say, we produced -- as you'll note, the other 8 set of documents that we did produce related to !
9 Allegation 86-A-0057, which is another instance of 10 claimed harassment or intimidation that arose during the 11 course of the discovery in this proceeding.
12 The Staff has completed its investigation into that 13 and made those documents available, and we would 14 anticipate with Allegation 86-A-0079 we'll do the same 15 thing. We anticipate that that will be complete within 16 the next weeks.
17 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. If I understand it, 18 that document is going to be turned over to the other l
19 parties, and we' re being requested to look at that now.
20 I guess we will on the understanding that it will 21 be turned over to the other parties anyway. However, 22 what we have to say tomorrow may accelerate that 23 disclosure.
24 MR. MILLER: Your Honor, as I read Sections 1
(} 25 2.744 and 2.790 of the Commission's rules of practice, l
Sonntaa Reportina Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9717 O
1 the procedure that Mr. Berry suggests is really quite
- 2 appropriate; that is, that the documents be turned over 3 to the Board for its analysis of whether, in fact, their 4 production to the parties would compromise an ongoing 5 investigation.
3 6 But there is no absolute privilege, as I read the 7 regulations, prohibiting turning over those documents.
8 I join with Mr. Guild in urging that the Board view them 9 in light of the regulations; that if it's the Board's 10 judgment that it will not, in fact, compromise the 11 ongoing investigation, that the parties be given t
12 immediate access to them. l 13 I should say both Intervenors and Applicant have 14 had requests, in accordance with the Commission's rules 15 of practice, for production of just these sorts of 16 documents on file for many, many months.
17 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, we will take a look at i 18 that, and we'll go according to the regulations. So we 19 might as well move on.
20 Off the record for a second.
21 (There followed a discussion outside the 22 record.)
23 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Back on the record.
I 24 MR. GUILD: One other matter.
(} 25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay.
I
- Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
't Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9718 O
1 MR. GUILD: Reading those sections of the 2 regulation, now that I hear counsel for the Staff citing 3 them, I don't object to the process of supplying the 4 documents to the Board.
5 I didn' t think we were entitled to have some legal 6 basis for the withholding cited. It's been cited, and I 7 appreciate that.
8 I would ask that the record reflect one other 9 matter, though.
10 We also discussed on Friday among counsel discovery 11 and exchange of information with respect to Applicant's 12 rebuttal case, and I believe that counsel for Applicant 13 and counsel for Intervenor have reached an agreement 14 that at least initially there will be an informal 15 exchange of documents, prefiled testimony expected at 16 the end of ttis week, I believe --
17 MRj MILLER: I hope I can get it this week.
18 MRA GUILD: -- and access to those 19 individuals and perhaps others on an informal basis for 20 interviews, hopefully to obviate the need for formal 21 deposition discovery.
22 But in any event, we are in agreement now to 23 proceed informally.
24 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. We still have the l .
25 matter Of where we' re going to have further hearings, l
Sonntaa Relortina Service, Ltd.
l Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262 1
9719 1 and I hope counsel are working on that.
2 MR. MILLER: Yes. We have to consult.
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay, fine.
4 So we're ready to call the witness now?
5 MR. GUILD: Yes, now we are.
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Who is the witness, again?
7 MR. GUILD: Mr. Perryman, Larry Perryman.
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN : And he has already been 9 called?
10 MR. GUILD: He has, Judge.
11 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Sorry. I have a block on 12 that.
13 He's being recalled now, okay, called back.
14 Fine. You've already been worn, and you remain 15 under oath.
16 THE WITNESS: All right.
17 MR. GUILD: May I proceed, Mr. Chairman?
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Yes. Proceed, Mr. Guild.
19 MR. GUILD: Good afternoon, Mr. Perryman.
20 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.
21 MR. GUILD: Let's see if we can recap where 22 we stood when we adjourned the session when you last 23 testified.
24 DIRECT EXAMINATION t 25 (Continued)
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9720 O
V 1 BY MR. GUILD:
2 0 You had described for me a special project that you and 3 others had been assigned to perform. I believe you 4 called it the cable pan hanger walkdown program.
5 A That's correct.
6 Q Okay.
7 You and I believe four other individuals -- five, 8 all together, QC Inspectors -- were assigned to work on 9 that walkdown?
10 A Yes, we were.
11 Q You testified before the break at the end of the week 12 regarding dissatisf action with the way in which the 13 program was organized, having to do with the way you 14 utilized -- or were asked to utilize the configuration 15 checklist.
16 Do you recall that testimony?
17 A Yes, I do.
18 0 And it was your testimony that because of the 19 unresponsiveness of your management to those concerns, 20 you requested a transfer off the program back to the 21 in-process welding?
22 A That's correct.
23 0 Now, did any other of the five inspectors also seek a 24 transfer, aside from yourself?
(} 25 A I don' t know if they put them in writing or not.
l l
Sonntaa Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9721 1 Q Didn ' t they , in fact, also ask either orally or in 2 writing that they, too, be transferred off the walkdown 3 program?
4 A Two others I know did.
5 0 And who were the two that you know of ?
6 A Bossong and Brown.
7 Q Is that Bruce Brown?
8 A Bruce Brown and Larry Bossong.
9 Q And did Larry Bossong or Mr. Brown inform you of the 10 reason they wanted a transfer off the walkdown program?
11 A We all had the same disagreement with the way the 12 procedure was written.
D ud 13 Q All right.
14 It was your understanding that their reason was the 15 same as yours?
16 A Yes, it was.
17 Q Now, as I recall, you put in a series of memoranda to 18 your supervision, Mr. Simile and others; and the short 19 and long of it was they either ignored those requests or i
20 refused to act favorably upon them.
21 You didn't get the transfer you asked for?
22 A Well, I eventually did get the transfer.
23 Q Before that, though, the response f rom management was 24 either to ignore your memos or to say, "We can't
(} 25 transfer you at this time"?
l 4
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
l 9722 ,
i 1 A That's correct.
2 0 And I take it that the other two inspectors, Brown and 3 Bossong and others that requested transf ers -- they 4 didn' t get transf erred, either; at least, not until the 5 final point when you were transferred --
6 A That is correct.
7 0 -- as well?
8 You were seeking a transfer back to the in-process 9 weld inspection, and was it your understanding that at 10 least Brown and Bossong were also seeking to go back to 11 in-process?
12 A Yes, they were.
/cs 13 Q None of you were seeking to be transferred to 14 terminations on night shift, were you?
15 A No, sir. !
16 0 And yet that's where, in fact, you ultimately did get 17 transferred: night terminations?
18 A I did, yes, sir.
19 0 All right.
20 And how did you learn that you were to be 21 transferred to night terminations?
22 A I forget the date, but Mr. Simile walked into the S & L 23 trailer where the five of us worked, and he called Paul 24 Schultz aside.
() 25 0 Is he one of the inspectors?
j Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9723
(~)
v 1 A Yes, he was one of the inspectors.
2 0 Okay.
3 A He mentioned to him that he would be transferred first.
4 Then he went and I believe he asked Bruce Brown if 5 he still wanted to be transferred, and Bruce Brown said 6 no, because the procedure had been changed.
7 0 Wait a minute. Let me interrupt you.
8 Schultz was told that he was going to be 9 transferred by Simile?
10 A Yes.
11 0 And was he told that he was being transferred to s 12 in-process weld inspection?
(d 13 A I don't remember where he was told he was going.
14 0 Okay, fine.
15 Brown was asked if he wanted a transfer, and he 16 said he no longer did?
17 A Right.
18 0 Okay.
19 Then what happened?
20 A And I don't believe he ever talked at all to Mickey 21 Gerrish, so he just came back in and told Larry Bossong 22 and myself to get our memos ready because we wouldn' t 23 like where we were going.
24 0 Get your memos ready?
(} 25 A Yes.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9724 C) 1 0 Meaning you could write another memo, as you had already 2 written, complaining about the program?
3 A Yes.
4 Q All right.
5 And when he told you then - "he," Simile, told you 6 you wouldn't like where you were going, did he tell you 7 where you were going?
8 A We were supposed to go to his office at 4:00 or 4:30 9 that night when we got off, and I didn't go over until 10 the next morning. That's when he told me where I was 11 going.
12 Q All right.
(-
v 13 And that was night terminations?
14 A Night, second shift, terminations.
15 Q Second shif t terminations, all right.
16 Now, I believe you told me that at this time you l 17 were caring for your mother, and she was ill --
18 A That's correct.
19 0 -- and that it was, practically speaking, impossible for 20 you to work nights and also carry out your 21 responsibilities to your mother?
l 22 A At that time, yes.
23 0 You subsequently took the transfer to night 24 terminations?
(} 25 A Yes, I did.
l l Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
l Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9725 O
1 0 All right.
2 Did you tell Mr. -- what did you say to Mr. Simile 3- when he told you that the place you wouldn't want to be 4 going was night terminations?
5 A Well, I explained my reasons for not wanting nights, and 6 he said I was being transferred anyway.
7 0 To night terminations?
8 A Right.
9 0 All right.
10 And how did you resolve the conflict between your 11 personal situation with your mother and being called 12 upon to do terminations at night?
13 A Well, my mother died the next weekend.
14 0 So the conflict was simply eliminated?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q All right.
17 And you worked night terminations for how long?
18 A Oh, probably around six months.
19 Q Now, when you went to the NRC, Mr. Perryman, in March, 20 you made a complaint to them. I showed you the April 21 5th memo -- it's an NRC memo -- that summarized the 22 complaint. It's the one with the erroneous name by it.
23 It says " Larry Greenman. " It's the paragraph that you 24 agreed the other day was a summary of that complaint.
25 (Indicating.)
(])
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 l
(312) 232-0262
1 9726 O
1 Do you remember that testimony?
2 A Yes, I do.
3 MR. GUILD: This is 42-A, Mr. Chairman. It's 4 an in-camera exhibit, and it has Mr. Perryman's 5 complaint summarized.
6 BY MR. GUILD:
7 Q The statement reads, " Requests hangers aren' t being 8 inspected just as built. No inspection reports or 9 Nonconf ormance Reports are written. "
10 Now, in fact, you were discouraged f rom writing 11 ICR's or NCR's for discrepant conditions that you 12 identified in the course of this walkdown program; isn't 13 that correct?
14 A We weren' t discouraged. It wasn' t part of the 15 procedure.
16 0 Were you told thtt you couldn' t write ICR's and NCR's as i 17 you were doing the walkdown program?
l 18 A That's correct.
i 19 0 All right.
l 20 And was that even if you identified conditions that 21 you believed to be discrepant?
l 22 A That was to be taken care of after the review of the 23 prints.
24 0 That was what your management told you was going to
(~) 25 happen; right?
v Sonntaq Reportinq Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9727 p
O 1 A That's right.
2 0 All right.
3 But even if you identified a discrepant condition, 4 you were not authorized under the walkdown program to 5 document that discrepant condition, at the time you 6 identified it, on either an ICR or an NCR?
7 A That's correct.
8 O And that's what it means here where it says, "No 9 inspection reports or Nonconformance Reports were 10 written"?
11 A That's correct.
12 0 That's a reference to ICR's, isn't it?
(~)
'V 13 A ICR's and NCR's.
14 0 "Walkdowns are being done and drawings made to show 15 as-built configuration."
16 And that's the Rev. O-Rev. A process that you've 17 already described; correct?
18 A That's correct.
19 0 Now, you stated that Mr. Bossong was transferred at the 20 same time, and he was transf erred also to night 21 terminations; isn't that right?
22 A I can't remember whether he was or not. It worked out 23 with the union that he wound up on days.
24 0 Was he transferred initially to nights along with you,
~T 25 second shift?
(O Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
1 9728
(~)S
\- i 1 A I believe he was supposed to go to nights with me, yes.
2 0 All right.
3 Well, subsequently when the contract was ratified 4 with the local and BESTCO, you accepted official duties 5 as a steward under that contract?
6 A Yes, I did.
7 Q And Mr. Bossong similarly also became a steward under 8 that contract?
9 A Yes.
10 0 And he became the night steward and you the day steward 11 or the other way around?
r~s 12 A Just the opposite. He was the day steward.
i 13 0 You became the night steward?
14 A Yes, I did, i
15 0 And that was on or about the 23 rd of July,19857
! 16 A Somewhere around there, yes.
17 0 When you say "it worked out" f or Mr. Bossong, it was 18 because the contract came into effect and he took on the l
19 steward responsibilities?
20 A That's correct.
l l 21 Q And at that point management no longer had the 22 discretion, if you will, to punitively assign Mr.
l 23 Bossong to wherever they wanted; he had this duty as 24 steward?
(} 25 A That's correct.
l Sonntaa Reportino Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9729
13 When you discovered such a hanger, what, if 14 anything, did you do?
15 A Oh, they were documented on ICR's or NCR's, depending.
16 0 All right, sir.
17 And no one in management told you not to write 18 those up if you found them, did they?
19 A Oh, not then, no, sir.
20 0 The configuration inspections that you performed in 21 beginning and mid 1984 -- were these on hangers that had 22 had previous Quality Control Inspector acceptance?
23 A Some had; some had not.
24 Before the walkdown -- now, I'm talking prior to 25 the cable pan walkdown. I hope that's where you're at.
(~)
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9147 l
[~)
%/
\
l 1 0 Yes. I'm glad you qualified that.
2 A Let me put it in this sense, then. Maybe you can 3 understand it, and you probably have the information.
4 We worked on -- I worked on personally a Unit 2 5 switch gear room, and I don' t even remember the total 6 amount of ICR's I had written on welding, turned around 7 and started the configuration, because when an inspector 8 had left, they had left -- this one inspector had left a 9 stack of what we called HIR's, Hanger Installation --
10 the old Hanger Installation Reports.
11 So I was assigned to go out and do these gs 12 inspectiens, find out if they had been done; if they O 13 hadn't been done, to go ahead and do them. During that 14 process of inspecting that room is when I found most of 15 those problems.
16 0 Is it your recollection, Mr. Perryman, that the problem
( 17 that you've just described was limited to that switch 18 gear room or that it was more widespread within the
( 19 plant?
20 A Oh, it was widespread within the plant.
21 0 Do you know that f rom personal experience or f rom what 22 other inspectors have told you?
23 A Prom both.
l 24 0 And if I understand the way in which you personally 25 would become informed, you'd be asked to conduct an
(]}
Sonntaa Reportina Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9748 O
J 1 inspection and would find that the hanger was discrepant 2 because these tolerances for where the braces would be 3 attached wouldn't be met?
4 A Yeah.
5 Braces -- it could be the horizontal members or it 6 could be the attachment types or whatever. Something 7 was wrong with a lot of the hangers at the one time.
8 0 And for how many of the ones that you looked at where 9 these discrepancies occurred had there been a prior QC 10 Inspector inspection and acceptance of the hangers?
11 A That would be hard to actually answer --
i 12 0 All right.
13 A -- without digging into the vault and pulling all the 14 old ones out.
15 Q Do you know whether the ones that had such a prior QC 16 inspection had been reworked after that inspection had 17 taken place and that was, in fact, the reason that you 18 were being asked to look at them again?
19 A No, sir.
20 0 That is, there had been no changes, as far as you could 21 tell, f rom the earlier installation that had been 22 inspected by some other QC Inspector?
23 A That is correct.
24 0 How did you come to look at those? Why were you asked 25 to inspect those that had a prior QC Inspector
(]}
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9749 O
1 acceptance on them?
2 A Well, when that particular room came down, it was --
3 like I said, an inspector, when he had left, had left a 4 lot of reports laying there. So in order to go through 5 250 hangers, it's easier just to grab that stack.
6 It's in one room approximately the size of this 7 one. It's easier just to start at Hanger No. 1 and go 8 down and get them done while you' re there.
9 0 Rather than figure out which ones had prior QC 10 inspections?
11 A Rather than going to the vault and trying to retrieve 12 all the information, we could give them an inspection.
13 0 Was that your practice in other areas of the plant as 14 well?
15 A Not normally, no. I'd say no.
16 0 In other areas of the plant, how did you come to 17 reinspect hangers for configuration that had a previous 18 apparently valid QC inspection on them?
- 19 A Those were either done because of a rework or the cable 20 pan walkdown or an ICR-NCR situation.
, 21 Q And an ICR-NCR situation would be where you'd be asked i
22 to close out an ICR-NCR?
23 A That is correct.
24 0 Let me see if I can isolate this just a little bit 25 further.
Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
. .. -_ - _. - . _~ - - - _. =__ - _ __ - .- - . _ _ - _ --
9750 0
1 Outside of this one switch gear room which you've 2 described, did you come across any hangers that had been 3 inspected for configuration prior to the time you got 4 there and had been accepted by another QC Inspector 5 that, in your judgment, there was out-of-tolerance work 6 points or other discrepancies in the configuration 7 inspection?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 0 Okay. Let me go to the next step.
10 Were any of those ones where there had been no 11 rework, where you were not closing out an NCR, ICR or 12 where you had not been specifically directed to conduct 13 a reinspection?
14 A Let me see if I heard you right.
15 Were those hangers, you said, that I was sent out 16 to do?
17 0 Yes, sir.
18 A Some of them were, yes, sir.
19 Q And others you just noticed as you were -- they were 20 adjacent to where you were working?
21 A That is correct.
22 Q All right.
23 On those did you go back to the vault to see 24 whether or not there was a valid inspection report on 25 file or just reinspect them on your own?
({}
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9751 1
(
1 A Most of the time, rather than run to the vault, I'd just 2 do it myself.
3 0 Did anyone ever criticize you for being conscientious in 4 this way and doing these reinspections?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 0 Who was that?
7 A Irv DeWald.
8 0 What did he tell you?
9 A Well, after I started the switch gear room, I was called 10 in and asked why I was writing so much up on it. There 11 was a -- it wasn' t just the welding; it was on the 12 configs, also, because the room had quite a few hold 13 tags on it at the time.
14 I told him that through my inspections, I found 15 nonconformances or ICR's, depending upon the hanger.
16 Something was out of tolerance; some of them minor, some
- 17 major.
4 18 They pulled me out of the room, and they sent five 19 engineers in there to reinspect every one of them.
20 Q Five engineers from what organization?
21 A Comstock.
22 0 And what were the results of that reinspection, do you 23 know?
24 A Yes, sir.
(} 25 0 What was that?
Somntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9752 1 A Not one hanger in there did not have at least one 2 deficiency.
3 Q So in other words, deficiencies that you had discovered 4 were, in fact, substantiated by the work of these five 5 Comstock engineers?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q And NCR's or ICR's were written up; is that correct?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 0 Did Mr. DeWald, at the conclusion of this episode, tell 10 you to again not be so conscientious or not write up 11 ICR's or NCR's?
12 A Oh, no, sir.
(~
V 13 0 Okay.
14 Mr. Guild asked you about your dealings with Mr.
15 Puckett, and I think you said that you sometimes had 16 questions on the interpretation of the Comstock welding i
17 procedure that you would bring to him; is that correct?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q Do you recall the specifics of any questions that you 20 brought to him?
21 A At the time it was probably something simple, like a 22 symbol on one drawing for a particular hanger wouldn't 23 bei correct or something like that.
24 We'd try and argue it out and get it straightened
(} 25 out what should have been there; instead of a fillet, Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
l Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9753 1 that should have been a flare bevel or something to that 2 effect.
3 0 Mr. Puckett -- was he able to resolve those 4 discrepancies for you?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 0 Did he ever have to consult Engineering, Comstock 7 Engineering or Sargent & Lundy, to resolve these 8 discrepancies?
9 A The ones that I particularly had, no.
10 0 Did you ever ask Mr. Puckett for any assistance in 11 determining what procedure was applicable to the joining 12 of carbon steel and stainless steel?
13 A No, sir.
14 0 Do you know whether there are any such welds within 15 Comstock's scope of work at Braidwood?
16 A If there is, there's an awful darn few of them.
17 0 You've never seen one, have you?
18 A No, sir.
19 0 Did any other inspector ever tell you that this was a 20 question of procedural interpretation that he had 21 brought to Mr. Puckett's attention?
22 A Not to my knowledge.
23 0 Did you ever raise with Mr. Puckett the question of 24 whether the procedures covered the welding of A446 25 material to A36 material?
l
(]}
Sonntaa Reportina Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinoic 60134 (312) 232-0262
9754 O
1 A I didn' t personally, no, sir.
2 0 Do you know of any inspector who did?
3 A I had heard it come up. The inspector -- whoever it 4 was, I don't know.
5 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Excuse me.
6 Are we going beyond direct examination now?
7 MR. MILLER: I don't believe so.
8 I'm trying to find out which specific questions on 9 procedures Mr. Perryman may have inquired of Mr.
10 Puckett, but I'm really finished.
11 JUDGE GROSSMAN: That's as far as you're p 12 going?
V 13 MR. MILLER: Yes.
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay.
15 BY MR. MILLER:
16 0 Now, I think you said that you have had some problems 17 with the vault in terms of being able to retrieve
) 18 documents and so on, both ones that are of recent 19 vintage and some that are older than that, and that you i 20 have kept your own copy of these documents for some time 21 so that you have your own personal record of these 22 documents.
23 For how long a period of time, Mr. Perryman, have 24 you been doing that?
(} 25 A Since I became a Lead in welding.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
i Cencvs, filinoi c 6013~4 i (312) 232-0262 L
J ,
9755 i
i O :
l 1 Q And that -- refresh me..
I i 2 What was that date, approximately?
3 A I don't know; six, eight months, maybe a year now.
4
- 4 Q All right.
l 5 It's correct, is it not, that Mr. Landers -- who is
- 6 also a Lead, is he not?
j 7 A Mr. Landers is a supervisor.
- 8 Q A supervisor, all right.
i j 9 -- that Mr. Landers passed the word to all welding 10 inspectors about a year ago that they ought to keep >
) 11 their personal copies of documents that were transmitted 12 to the vault?
j 13 A That was up to the Leads to do in the Welding i
14 Department.
! 1
{ 15 Q All right.
16 And you availed yourself, but Mr. Landers suggested '
j 17 that that was a practice that might be done? l 18 A Mr. Mustered did.
- 19 0 Mr. Mustered -- at that point in time, he was a Lead; is 20 that correct?
i 21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q And you thought it was a good idea, so you started doing !
! 23 it?
i 24 A Yes, sir.
1 25 Q Do you know whether Mr. Simile had suggested to the i
l Sor}rit_aq __ Repor ting Service,_Ltd. t j Geneva, Illinois 60134 l (312) 232-0262
9756 O
1 Leads that they provide this option to the inspectors?
2 Mr. Simile had talked to the supervisors?
3 I guess that would be the way the chain of command 4 would go.
5 A That subject had come up between Mr. Simile and myself 6 and Mike Mustered and some of the inspectors in the 7 group a couple of times.
8 The inspectors themselves don't keep copies. The 9 Lead keeps the copies.
10 0 Prior to the time that you became Lead, did your Lead 11 keep copies of any documents that you sent along to the 12 vault?
13 A No, sir. I wasn't working up in that in-process area.
14 0 But you do recall that there were a number of 15 conversations between inspectors, Leads, the supervisor 16 and Mr. Simile about this practice?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 0 Now, Mr. Guild asked you about your observation of the 19 exchange between Mr. Hii and Mr. Saklak.
20 Do you recall that?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 0 It's where Mr. Saklak raised his voice and shook his l 23 finger at Mr. Hii, and I don't recall whether the 24 subject -- whether you recalled what the subject of the 25 discussion between those two men was.
l f Sonntag_ Reporting S.ervice, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9757 O
G 1 But as I recall your testimony, you and Mr. Saklak 2 then had walked out of the area together; isn't that 3 right?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 0 And you had occasion to say a few words to Mr. Saklak 6 yourself at that point, didn't you?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 0 What did you tell him?
9 A I didn't think it was very professional of him at the 10 time and he was just in a bad mood.
11 Q Didn' t you tell Mr. Saklak that if he ever shook his 12 finger at you, that you'd tear it off and make him eat 13 it?
14 A After that.
15 0 It was after that?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q How much after that?
18 A After we had talked -- finished talking about Joe Hii.
19 0 All right.
l 20 What did Mr. Saklak say when you told him that?
21 A He just looked rather surprised at me.
22 O He walked away, didn't he? ,
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q Did you have any personal dealings with Mr. Saklak after 25
/} that time?
l
_Sonntaq Reporting _ Service, Ltd.
l Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9758 O
1 A As far as arguing or anything?
2 O Yes, sir.
3 A Oh, no. We never did.
4 Q All right.
5 Did you tell anybody else in the QC inspection 6 force about your conversation with Mr. Saklak?
7 A No, sir.
8 Q Did anyone overhear you tell Mr. Saklak what you would 9 do to him if he shook his finger at you?
10 A No, sir.
11 Q After that incident, did people ever -- other inspectors 12 ever complain to you about Saklak being overbearing or 13 abusive?
14 A I believe the only one was -- well, there was two, which 15 was Mike Mustered and Rich Steiner.
16 0 Af ter the incident with Mr. Mustered, did you tell him 17 about your conversation with Mr. Saklak?
18 A No, sir.
19 Q And did you ever tell Mr. Snyder about your conversation 20 with Mr. Saklak?
21 A No, sir.
22 MR. MILLER: I'd like to go back to the cable 23 pan walkdown inspection. I believe that Mr. Guild 24 showed you what's been marked as Intervenors' Exhibit
(} 25 35, which was the series of three memoranda that you had Sonntag Peporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9759
()
1 written, requesting a transf er.
2 I'd like to mark another one -- it's the one of May 3 7,1985 -- as Applicant's Exhibit 105, and it appears to 4, be a memorandum from Mr. Perryman to Mr. Lamb and Mr.
5 Landers.
6 (The document was thereupon marked 7 Applicant's Exhibit No.105 for 8 identification as of August 5,1986.)
9 MR. MILLER: I'm sorry. I just have one set.
10 I'm going to have to share with you, Mr. Perryman.
11 BY MR. MILLER:
12 0 First of all, on what we've marked as Applicant's
.O 13 Exhibit 105, which is this May 7th memorandum, that's
- 14 your signature at the top of that Read and Reply form --
1
{ 15 (Indicating.)
16 A Yes, sir.
I 17 0 -- is it not?
18 And who are Mr. Lamb and Mr. Landers, to whom this
, 19- was addressed?
I 20 A Ron Lamb was my immediate Lead at the time, and Daryl J[ 21 Landers I believe was part of the supervisory team on
! 22 that.
23 Q That is, on that cable pan walkdown project?
l 24 A When it was first started, yes, sir.
(} 25 0 All right.
k Sonntac Reportina Service, Ltd.
2 Geneva, Illinois 60134 l (312) 232-0262
9760 0
1 And the request here was a transf er due to personal 2 reasons?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q Were those personal reasons the illness of your mother 5 that you've previously described?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q All right.
8 And then the very next day -- well, still on 9 Applicant's Exhibit 105, is that Mr. Lamb's signature 10 just in the reply section?
11 (Indicating.)
12 A As far as I know, it is, yes, sir.
13 0 Did you get this back with his signature on it?
14 A I probably did, yes, sir.
15 0 What did that signature mean to you?
16 A That he received it.
17 0 But as far as you could tell, he had taken no action on i
- 18 your request?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 0 All right.
21 Then the next day you sent one to Mr. Schreimer, 22 Mr. Landers and Mr. Simile. That's a part of f
23 Intervenors' Exhibit 35.
24 Mr. Schreimer -- what was his status?
25 A Mr. Schreimer was also a Lead.
'(}
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 i (312) 232-0262 I
-l l
l 9761 '
s
( 3 1 Q All right. l i
j 2 And Mr. Landers -- you've identified -- Mr. Simile j 3 has also been identified on the record.
2 4 The " previous request" you refer to is, in fact ,
i 5 the request you made the day before to Mr. Lamb and Mr.
6 Landers; is that correct?
- 7 A Yes, sir.
j 8 Q And this " reply requested" -- that is, on the May 8th ,
9 memorandum -- is that in your handwriting?
l 10 A Yes, sir.
t I 11 Q And I think you've testified that you didn't get any >
12 answer to that memorandum, either. '
,' 13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q So approximately five days later, you sent the 15 memorandum to Mr. DeWald on May 13th, and again you ask l
i 16 for a transfer back to in-process welding and .
! 17 configuration due to personal reasons.
. 18 Again, those personal reasons were the illness of t j 19 your mother; is that correct?
4 20 A Part of it, yes, sir.
! 21 Q What was the other part?
l 22 A Well, when you say " personal reasons," when you write i
23 that down like that, it's so they don't ask questions,
- 24 mainly. If you have a reason, you just put down i
I,
() 25 " personal reasons."
Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262 rgm +- w e - o . s -y en c + -m9.,.y.-> -tw.y-ygm-m,g-y ye. w ,%,eevww w e-e W- M.w trammgw-ve r- MM gmmp- re m r y rm w **ee we m e wp. ye m %= N e w-
I 9762 0
1 Now, it could amount -- it could be for any reason 2 at the time.
3 0 All right.
4 Well, when you wrote the words, in addition to your 5 mother's illness, what other reasons did you have for 6 making the request?
7 A Because back even at the start of that, the five 8 inspectors had been talking about this and the 9 procedural problems, and we had had meetings on them 10 procedure problems. Rather than just get in an all-out 11 argument, it's easier just to write " personal reasons."
12 0 I see.
13 So " personal reasons" included your dissatisfaction 14 with the procedure as it then existed; is that correct, 15 sir?
16 A Oh, yes.
17 0 All right.
18 On that one you got a response two days later, 19 which just said a transfer is not possible, and you've 20 been through the response in your testimony to Mr.
21 Guild.
22 Then the last part -- the last memorandum is one 23 that is dated May 17, 1985. There you elaborated on at 24 least part of your personal reasons.
25 You discussed your dissatisfaction with the
(])
Sonntaa Reportina Service,_Ltd. _ _ .
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9763 1 procedure as it existed at that point in time; correct?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 MR. MILLER : All right. Mr. DeWald responded 4 on May 31st.
5 I'd like the Reporter to mark as Applicant's 6 Exhibit 106 a letter from Mr. Shamblin to Mr. DeWald to 7 which is attached a document that is Revision 2, dated 8 May 21,1985, to the procedure for disposition of 9 Commonwealth Edison NCR's 708 and 709 supplement, and 10 the body of the letter refers to the cable pan hanger 11 walkdown instruction.
12 (The document was thereupon marked 13 Applicant's Exhibit No.106 for 14 identification as of August 5, 1986.)
15 BY MR. MILLER:
16 0 Mr. Perryman, I've looked at a calendar, and I represent 17 to you that May 17, 1985, which is the date of your last 18 memorandum requesting a transf er, is a Friday.
19 A Yes, sir.
20 0 That would mean that this letter f rom Mr. Shamblin to 21 Mr. DeWald would have been issued on a Tuesday.
22 Now, first of all, do you recall having seen the 23 document in the form that I've marked it as an exhibit; 24 that is, with the cover letter from Mr. Shamblin and 25 then the attachment?
(])
l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60f3 4 l (312) 232-0262
9764 O
1 A I have copies of them, yes.
2 0 And did you receive those copies, do you recall, on or 3 shortly af ter the date on which Mr. Shamblin issued the 4 letter?
5 A Probably, yes.
6 0 Can we agree that the form which is the third to last 7 sheet in the exhibit -- that is, the Form 7 -- carries 8 the writings at the bottom under the remarks section 9 which address the concerns that you had earlier 10 expressed in your meetings and which you had documented 11 in your May 17, 1985, memorandum to Mr. DeWald?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 0 And just to recap, you were concerned that without some 14 indication on the f ace of the Form 7, that your 15 signature would be taken as a final QC Inspector 16 acceptance of the hanger?
17 A That's correct.
18 0 And as a part of that, if that were going to be the 19 case, then you wanted to be the inspector who went back 20 and looked at the two drawings, the Rev. O and the Rev.
21 A drawing, to make certain that every variation that you 22 had identified on the drawing, the Rev. O drawing, had 23 been, in fact, picked up on the Rev. A drawing; correct?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 0 And with this statement in the remarks column, those
{]}
Sopr1 tag legortina Service,_Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9765 1 concerns would be addressed; correct?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 0 All right.
4 Now, while we' re on this form, I think Mr. Guild 5 asked you whether or not you were authorized to write 6 any ICR's or NCR's if the hanger was discrepant, and you 7 said, "Not for this program," as I recall your 8 testimony; is that correct?
9 A That's correct, sir.
10 0 All right.
11 And the reason for that was that there was, if you 12 will, a Sargent & Lundy engineering evaluation of any 13 discrepancies between the as-built condition of the 14 hanger and what was shown on the Rev. O drawing that was 15 part and parcel of the cable pan walkdown program; 16 correct?
17 A That's correct.
18 0 All right.
19 In the event that Sargent & Lundy, after its 20 engineering evaluation, could not accept the hanger, 21 then, in fact, the procedure itself cs11ed for the 22 initiation of an NCR; isn't that right?
23 A That's correct.
24 0 And that's found in Paragraph 6.2 of the procedure; it's 25 the page that is just in front of the Form 7; correct?
(]}
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, 11 Tin 6Is 60D 4 (312) 232-0262
9766 C'O' 1 A That's correct.
2 MR. MILL ER : All right.
3 Now, I think you've testified that Mr. DeWald 4 didn't respond to your request until May 31st; and at 5 that point in time, as the memorandum indicates, he said 6 that the transfer was granted and that the transfer, in 7 fact, did take place.
8 I'd like the Reporter to mark as Applicant's 9 Exhibit 107 a letter f rom Mr. Shamblin to Mr. DeWald, 10 dated May 29, 1985, to which is also attached the cable 11 pan walkdown procedure. It's very similar in format to 12 Exhibit 106.
n 13 (The document was thereupon marked 14 Applicant's Exhibit No.107 for
, 15 identification as of August 5,1986.)
16 BY MR. MILLER:
17 0 Mr. Perryman, have you ever seen Applicant's Exhibit 107 18 in the form that's been marked as an exhibit before 19 today?
20 A I have a copy of it, yes, sir.
21 0 All right.
22 And did you receive that on or shortly af ter the 23 date it bears, May 29, 19857 24 A If I was still in the walkdown, I would have received it
(} 25 then, yes.
Sonntag_Renotting Services _Ltd.
i Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9767 3
(G 1 0 And again can we agree that the Form 7 that is attached 2 to the revised procedure contains the legend in the 3 remarks column that is responsive to the concerns that 4 you and the other inspectors had expressed?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 MR. GUILD: Mr. Chairman, before we leave the 7 point, I guess the witness' last answer leaves the 8 record unclear. The question was directly did he see it 9 at the time, and the witness gave a conditional answer.
10 MR. MILLER: Well, I'm about to satisfy the 11 condition.
12 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Fine. Proceed.
13 BY MR. MILLER:
14 0 Do you recall that when these revisions to the walkdown 15 program were issued, that there was training given for i 16 each of the inspectors who were a part of the program?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 0 And you would have participated in that training; 19 correct?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 0 Do you recall, Mr. Perryman, that at one of these 22 training sessions, you stated that if you weren't 23 transf erred, the quality of your inspections might 24 suffer?
( ), 25 A It's possible, yes, sir.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9768 O
1 MR. MILLER: I'd like the Reporter to mark as 2 Applicant's Exhibit 108 a two-page document.
3 The first is a memorandum -- well, I believe it's 4 from Mr. Simile and Mr. Schreimer to Mr. DeWald, dated 5 May 30, 1985, to which is attached a personnel 6 instruction log for the date May 30, 1985.
7 (The document was thereupon marked 8 Applicant's Exhibit No.108 for 9 identification as of August 5,1986.)
10 BY MR. MILLER:
11 0 Now, looking at the second page of Applicant's Erhibit 12 108, Mr. Perryman, your signature appears in the bottom 13 of the Icft-hand column, does it not?
14 A Yes, it does.
15 0 And that indicates that you attended a training class of 16 approximately an hour, familiarization with a Revision 3 17 to the walkdown procedure, dated May 29, 1985.
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q And that would be what's previously been marked as 20 Applicant's Exhibit 107; correct?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 0 And do you recall that in that training class, you, in 23 fact, again requested of Mr. Simile to be transferred 7
24 out of the walkdown?
(} 25 A Yes, sir.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134
! (312) 232-0262
9769 O
1 0 And having looked at this memorandum, do you recall 2 saying that if you weren't transferred, it would start 3 affecting your inspections?
4 A .Yes, sir.
5 0 And the next day your request for transfer was acted on, 6 and you were, in fact, transferred; is that correct?
7 A That is correct, sir.
8 0 And up to that point, neither Mr. Simile nor Mr. DeWald 9 knew of the personal situation with your mother; is that 10 correct? .
11 A No, sir.
12 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Excuse me.
13 What does that knows mean; they didn't or they did 14 know?
15 THE WITNESS: They did know, sir.
16 BY MR. MILL ER :
17 0 Oh, they did know?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 0 When did you inform them of your mother's condition?
20 A I had talked to Tony Simile a couple times before that 21 about that.
22 0 At the time that --
23 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Excuse me. Let me clarify 24 something.
{}
r 25 I believe Mr. Miller suggested to you that one of Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9770
/~T U
1 the reasons why you wanted to be transf erred f rom the 2 cable pan hanger walkdown was because of your mother's 3 illness, and it didn' t seem to me that that was 4 consistent with your testimony last week. I thought 5 perhaps you might have agreed a little too readily to 6 that.
7 It seemed to me that in your testimony last week, 8 you were talking about a transfer to the night shift 9 being a handicap as far as your mother's illness but 10 that your request for transfer from the cable pan 11 walkdown was entirely for the reasons that you 3 12 disapproved of what was going on in that program.
13 Now, am I wrong about that?
14 THE WITNESS: I'll gladly answer it. I'll 15 try and straighten it out for you.
16 It was a -- it was a problem of both situations. I 17 was working -- when you work the walkdown, they wanted 18 you to work six days a week, which left me with one day 19 off, which was Sunday. Then Sunday, like I said, I had 20 to house-sit my mother. So that left me with no time 21 off at all.
22 So between the two of them, it was getting to where 23 I had no free time of my own in order to relax and break 24 apart the work and the work at home.
(} 25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. So you had both Sonntaa Reportina Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9771 (a')
1 reasons, then --
2 THE WITNESS: Both reasons.
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -- for wanting to be 4 transferred f rom the cable pan walkdown program?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay, fine.
7 BY MR. MILL ER :
8 0 When you were transferred to the terminations on night 9 shift, was that also a six-day-a-week assignment'or was 10 that a five-day-a-week assignment?
11 A It's five days a week, sir.
12 0 And to that extent, of course, you did have the
(~)
V 13 opportunity to both look af ter your mother, if that was 14 appropriate, and have some time for other activities as 15 well; correct?
16 A My mother died that weekend, sir.
17 0 Yes, sir.
18 Well, I don't mean to pry, but did she die the l
19 weekend of --
20 A July 2nd --
21 Q July --
22 A June 2nd. I'm sorry.
23 0 June 2nd. Thank you.
24 That was the very day that you went in in the
(} 25 morning to Mr. Simile to find out what your transfer i
i Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9772 1 was; that is, he told you on May 31st to report to him 2 -- or on June 1st to report to him that evening; is that 3 right?
4 A No. I believe he said I was transferred on the 31st.
5 0 Oh, and you came in on June 1st and were told that you 6 should come back that night, the night of June 1st, for 7 the second shift?
8 A No. I would have started Monday on the second shift.
9 My dates -- now, you're trying to find -- the dates 10 -- I don't know what date it is.
11 Q It appears that June 1st was a Saturday.
g3 12 A Yes, sir, somewhere in there.
U 13 0 All right.
14 So when you were told by Mr. Simile, that happened 15 in the morning of the day --
16 A That would have happened -- if you' re correct, the 31st 17 would have been a Friday morning.
18 Q Yes, sir.
, 19 A Then I still would have worked Saturday morning.
I 20 Q You would finish up your assignment, cable pan walkdown,
(
21 that Saturday?
22 A I imagine I would have, yes, sir.
23 0 So, then, your first day actually in the cable pan -- or 24 in the termination inspections on second shift would 25 have been Monday --
[}
l Sonntag Reportino Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9773 O
1 A The 3rd.
2 0 -- the 3 rd?
3 Was there a requirement for QC Inspectors in the 4 termination area at that point in time on second shift?
5 A I have no idea, sir.
6 0 Well, I mean, were there inspections to be done by you 7 and the other inspectors?
{ 8 A Oh, yes, sir.
9 Q So it wasn't a situation where you were transferred and 10 simply not given any work to do?
11 A Oh, no, sir.
12 Q All right.
13 I think you testified, in response to a question by 14 Mr. Guild, that you felt that the cross-certification 15 and training program at Comstock with the 50-cent-per-4 16 certification pay increment was not effective because 17 you didn' t feel that an inspector could maintain 18 proficiency in all the certifications.
- 19 Is that a fair summarization of your testimony?
i I
20 A Yes, sir.
I l 21 Q All right.
22 And, in fact, you hadn't worked in terminations for 23 some time when you were transferred to second shif t; is i
24 that correct?
(} 25 A Yes, sir.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
I 9774 1 Q You requested some ref resher training, did you not?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 0 And that was given to you, was it not?
4 A That's correct.
5 0 All right.
6 How much training, additional training, did you 7 get?
8 A I believe I got three more days. I won't swear to it 9 now, but I believe it was three more days.
10 0 And at the time you began actual inspections in the 11 termination area, did you feel yourself competent to 12 perform those inspections?
13 A Oh, yes, sir.
14 0 If you hadn't, would you have asked for additional 15 training?
16 A Yes, sir. !
17 0 Now, you talked about Mr. DeWald and the inspections of 18 the welds in this switch gear room.
- 19 Is this the same switch gear room where you wrote 20 up -- that you described earlier, in response to my l
21 questions, where you wrote up numbers of ICR's and 22 NCR's?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 0 And as part of that, Mr. DeWald came out and, in effect, 25 checked your work on whether the welds were undersized?
/}
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9775
('
V) 1 A Yes, sir.
2 0 It was then when he left, before he came back with Mr.
3 Klevens, the Sargent & Lundy -- was he a Level III 4 Inspector, weld inspector?
5 A I believe he is, yes, sir.
6 0 Before he came back with him, did the two of you -- that 7 is, you and Mr. DeWald -- have any conversations about 8 his findings or did he just kind of turn on his heel and 9 leave and, the next thing you knew, he was back with Mr.
10 Klevens?
11 A They just lef t.
12 0 That is, he and Mr. Cacero.
13 I guess Mr. Cacero was present, also?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 0 They didn't tell you they were going to get a Level III 16 to check it out?
17 A No, sir.
18 0 When Mr. Klevens substantiated your measurements, what, l 19 if anything, did Mr. DeWald say?
j 20 A To me?
l 21 Nothing.
22 0 Mr. Klevens?
I i 23 A I have no idea.
l l 24 0 He didn't say anything in your presence, anyway?
l
(} 25 A No, sir.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
l Geneva, Illinois 60134 l (312) 232-0262
i i
9776 ;
l O
1 O After that experience, did Mr. DeWald ever question the 2 accuracy of your measurements with respect to size or 3 length of welds?
4 A No, sir.
5 Q Did you, in fact, feel somewhat vindicated by Mr.
6 Klevens' position with respect to these measurements?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q Now, let me just -- I'm sorry. I should have asked you 9 this question when we were talking about the Form 7 's 10 and this cable pan walkdown inspection procedure, and I 11 neglected to do so.
~~ 12 I think you testified, in response to a question 13 from either the Chairman or Mr. Guild, that you withheld 14 the Form 7 's that you prepared in connection with this 15 cable pan walkdown inspection program until the i 16 procedure was changed; is that correct?
17 A That's correct.
18 0 All tight.
l l
19 So after May 21st, which is the date on which the 20 procedure was changed to have that legend on the bottom 21 of the Form 7, did you then turn in all the l
22 configuration inspections that you had done in this 23 program?
i 24 A Yes, sir.
l 25 0 And you turned them in with the legend at the bottom in
{~'}
Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
i Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9777 1 the remarks column; is that correct?
2 A I don't know if I turned those in or if I turned in the 3 originals I had written. I can't remember right now.
4 I believe I had just had a stack of them that we 5 had signed off previously; and I just held them until 6 the procedure explained more that af ter the man reviews 7 it, he's going to write a nonconformance or an ICR on 8 it. Then we just turned those in, because it wasn't 9 Level II'd yet.
10 0 When you say "it wasn' t Level II'd yet," you mean the 11 Rev. A-Rev. O comparison had not yet taken place yet?
gx 12 A Neither had my forms been Level II'd, so until they' re 0 13 Level II'd, they're useless for someone'else.
14 0 I see.
15 Prior to the time you handed this stack in, had 16 anyone f rom Comstock supervision or management asked you 17 where those forms were?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 0 And what was your response?
20 A That we were holding them.
21 0 And did you have any arguments with anybody in 22 management about continuing to hold them while this 23 procedure revision was being considered?
24 A Well, it came down because it was messing up their
{} 25 count; not as a production problem, but it was messing l
l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
l 9778 1 up their count.
2 We had been inspecting, say, for a week with no 3 turn-ins. That shows them that I was getting paid for 4 not doing nothing for a week, basically.
5 So that was the only part that disturbed them, not 6 that we were holding them, except for the fact that it 7 messed up their count. They didn't know where they 8 were, how many they had done or finished.
9 0 In fact, Mr. Simile knew that you were a conscientious 10 inspector, didn't he?
11 A We had our ups and downs.
12 0 Well, hadn't he given you an evaluation earlier in 1985 13 in which he was really quite complimentary of your 14 inspection practices?
15 A I believe he did, yes, sir.
16 0 All right.
17 So he wasn' t concerned that you weren' t doing the 18 inspections and, in fact, he understood the reason that 19 you were withholding these forms?
20 A Yes, he did, sir.
21 Q I think you said that when you were transferred on the 22 31st, Mr. Simile said words to the effect that, "You'd 23 better get your memos prepared because you won' t like 24 where you're going."
{} 25 A Yes, sir.
Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
. 9779
\
l Q Did he mean -- did you understand him to mean memos 2 asking for retransfer?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 (Laughter.)
5 Q And isn't it a fact, Mr. Perryman, that, oh, about six, 6 seven weeks after this, you, in fact, requested of Mr.
7 Simile that you be retransf erred into the cable pan 8 walkdown program?
9 A I don' t remember when it was, but yes, I did request to 10 go back to the cable pan walkdown.
11 Q And what caused you to make that request?
s 12 A I'm not a terminator, in my -- my opinion. I'm not an d 13 expert.
14 But I consider myself an expert or, at least, a 15 very good configurator and weld inspector. I feel 16 comf ortable in that area, and that's what I want to do.
17 Q And I take it you did not, however, go back to the cable 18 pan walkdown program, did you?
19 A No, sir. I went to the riser walkdown.
20 (Laughter.)
i 21 0 All right.
22 Would you just briefly describe -- is that a 23 configuration-type inspection?
24 A It's a welding and configuration inspection on the
, /~S. 25 collars that go around the cable pans that go from floor 7
\_)
l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134
- (312) 232-0262
l 9780 0
1 to floor -- that go through the floors, I should say.
2 0 At the time that Mr. Simile made this transf er --
3 inf ormed you of this transf er on May 31, 1985, I believe 4 you testified that you were an alternate union 5 negotiator in the negotiations that were ongoing between 6 the union and L. K. Comstock?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q And, in fact, part of the arrangement was that you and 9 the other negotiators would be released from work as 10 necessary to attend negotiating sessions; isn't that 11 correct?
12 A I believe it was, yes, sir.
13 Q Most of those negotiating sessions, in fact, took place 14 during the day, did they not?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 0 So that when you were transferred to nights, any 17 negotiating sessions that you attended were on your own 18 time, rather than on company time; right?
l 19 A I was trying to remember when they stopped, but you' re 20 probably right.
21 0 And did Mr. Simile ever indicate to you that 22 transferring you to nights was a way of keeping a highly 23 qualified inspector at work, rather than attending union i
24 negotiating sessions?
(} 25 A I can' t remember those words, no, sir.
l Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 l
(312) 232-0262
9781 1 Q Don't hold me to the words, but did you ever have an 2 understanding that that was part of the reason for 3 transferring you to nights?
4 A Part of the reason for transferring me to nights, from 5 what I understood at the time, was that they needed 6 qualified individuals on nights, yes.
7 0 And you were regarded as one of the qualified 8 individuals who could satisfy the need; correct?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q Mr. Guild asked you about your evaluation of the NRC's 11 inspection effort in terms of the allegations that were 12 made, and I think that you said you were not satisfied 13 with some of the NRC conclusions.
14 Can you be a little bit more specific for us, Mr.
15 Perryman?
16 Do you recall which of the NRC conclusions you did 17 not agree with?
18 A I believe one of them was on the finding of some 19 documentation.
20 If I remember what I said before, I believe the 21 other one was on some welders' qualifications, if I'm 22 not mistaken.
23 0 I believe it was weld inspector qualifications.
24 A I'm sorry. Yeah.
(} 25 Q Let me simply show you a copy of Inspection Report 8521.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9782 1 It bears a date of -- well, the cover letter bears a 2 date of November 4, 1985.
3 MR. MILLER: I'm showing the witness a copy 4 that is attached to the deposition of Messrs. Neisler 5 and Mendez, and it's Exhibit No. 8 to that deposition.
6 I do not have copies, and unless the Board and the 7 parties wish, I do not intend at this time to mark it as 8 an exhibit.
9 BY MR. !! ILLER :
10 0 Let me show you this document, Mr. Perryman, and ask you 11 if this is a copy of the inspection report that you saw
- 12 when the NRC had concluded its inspection.
13 (Indicating.)
14 A It looks like it.
15 0 All right, sir.
16 At your deposition you were asked again which 17 portions of this you regarded as not being very 18 thorough, and you pointed first to Page 9 of the 19 inspection report. That deals with the qualifications 20 of some Comstock weld inspectors.
21 (Indicating.)
22 Why don' t you just take a minute and look that 23 over.
24 MR. MILL ER : Mr. Berry, if you have another
(} 25 copy, maybe you could provide it to Dr. Callihan and the l
Sonntaa Reportino Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9783 m
)
1 Board.
2 MR. BERRY: (Indicating.)
3 BY MR. MILL ER :
4 0 You've had a chance to look at it.
5 Is that one of the concerns that you f elt the NRC 6 did not adequately investigate?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 0 All right.
9 Mr. Perryman, were you personally interviewed by 10 either Mr. Neisler or Mendez in connection with their 11 investigation of allegations that were made at the March 12 29, 1985, meeting?
13 A I don' t really remember.
14 0 Well, Mr. Mendez is sitting over there in the hearing 15 room.
16 (Indica ting. )
f j 17 llave you ever seen him before?
18 A Not that I can recall.
19 0 okay. I thought Mr. Neisler was here, too, but he may 20 not be.
21 Do you know which of the -- well, had you discussed 22 the issue of the qualifications of certain welding i 23 inspectors with your other -- your fellow inspectors?
24 A Oh, yes.
(} 25 0 Was there one individual or more than one individual l
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
j Geneva, Illinois 60134
! (312) 232-0262 I
97 84
.,r \
%)
I whose qualifications you particularly regarded as 2 suspect?
3 A Well, there was one, anyway, that was electrical that I 4 can remember.
5 Q That's Mr. Zych?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q Do you know whether, at the time of the NRC 8 investigation, Mr. Zych was actually performing welding 9 inspections?
10 A I don't know, sir.
11 Q You say he was an electrical inspector.
12 Could you describe what his other scope of 13 inspection activity beyond welding was?
14 A Well, he did -- he is a -- I believe he's now in 15 junction boxes or junction boxes equipment.
16 He may have terminations. I don't even remember 17 anymore.
18 0 On what did you base your belief that Mr. Zych was not 19 qualified as a welding inspector?
20 A I'm a firm believer in knowing what you' re doing when it 21 comes to welding.
22 If you haven' t welded -- I know there's standards 23 that state if you have a college degree, that counts for 24 so much or whatever.
25 It's just my own opinion that if you' re an
(]}
Sonntaa Reportino Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
97 85 1 electrical man and you've never welded, I don' t feel you 2 can be a good weld inspector.
3 0 I see.
4 And I take it from your comments that Mr. Zych had, 5 in fact, never been a welder; is that right?
6 A That's correct.
7 O Did you ever have occasion to observe Mr. Zych 8 conducting weld inspections? -
9 A Myself?
10 No.
11 Q Did you hear from any of your fellow inspectors that 12 they had observed Mr. Zych performing weld inspections?
13 A Yes, I have.
i 14 Q All right.
15 Were they critical of the way in which he performed 16 those inspections?
! 17 A Yes, sir.
I 18 Did he, in their opinion, miss defects?
0 l 19 A Yes, sir.
20 0 What did the inspectors do about that?
21 A I have no idea.
22 Q Did they tell you whether they wrote up ICR's l
l 23 themselves?
24 A I don't really know.
l 25 0 In your judgment, would that have been the appropriate
(}
l l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
l Geneva, Illinois 60134 l (312) 232-0262
9786
?
I thing to do if they had observed an inspector missing a 2 defect?
3 A Definitely.
4 Q Now, in your judgment, I take it Mr. Zych's 5 certification as a weld inspector should have been 6 pulled; right?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 0 And do you know whether or not that was done?
9 A No, sir.
10 0 The NRC inspection report indicates that it's carried as 11 I believe an open item.
12 Do you know what that means?
13 A They probably never answered it.
14 0 Okay.
15 When you say, "They probably never answered it,"
16 you mean that Comstock never answered it?
17 A That the NRC -- there's no answer to it yet, then. It's 18 still on the books.
19 0 Now, was there any other aspect of the NRC's 20 investigation into the allegations raised over the March 21 29, 1985, meeting that you personally regarded as 22 inadequate?
l 23 A Just documentation retrieval.
24 Q All right.
l
(} 25 Is that their apparent inability to find the Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9787 O
1 inspection report on which Mr. DeWald documented 1,000 2 welds?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 0 It's a fact, is it not, Mr. Perryman, that you 5 personally believed that that was really not one of the 6 major issues that was raised at the March 29, 1985, 7 meeting; isn' t that right?
8 A That's right, sir.
9 0 The major issue was to get Mr. Saklak -- have the NRC 10 deal with his behavior; correct?
11 A That's correct.
12 MR. MILLER: Your Honor, if I might just have 13 a minute, I believe that --
14 JUDGE CROSSMAN: Sure. Why don' t you review 15 your notes.
16 MR. MILLER: I'll review my notes and talk to 17 Mr. Simile.
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Why don' t we take 10 minutes 19 now.
20 (WHEREUPON, a recess was had, after which 21 the proceedings were resumed as follows:)
22 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Back on the record.
23 Mr. Miller?
24 MR. MILLER: I don't have any further 25 questions, Mr. Chairman.
[]')
. Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
! Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9788 O
4 1 At this point I'd like to move Applicant's Exhibits 2 105 through 108 into evidence.
3 MR. GUILD: No objection, Mr. Chairman.
4 MR. BERRY: No objection.
5 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. They ' re received.
6 (The documents were thereupon received 7 into evidence as Applicant's Exhibits 8 Nos.105 through 108.)
9 MR. MILLER: That concludes my examination of 10 Mr. Perryman.
11 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay.
12 Mr. Berry?
13 MR. BERRY: Good afternoon, Mr. Perryman. My 14 name is Gregory Berry. I represent the NRC Staff. I 15 don't think we've met before.
16 THE WITNESS: No, sir.
17 CROSS EXAMINATION l
18 BY MR. BERRY:
1
, 19 Q Mr. Perryruan, do I understand correctly that you were 20 not one of the original six inspectors that went to the 21 NRC on March 29th?
22 A That's correct.
23 0 I'd like to show you Intervenors' Exhibit 42-A. That's 24 the March 29, 1985, memorandum from Mr. Schulz and
{} 25 McGregor to Mr. Warnick. I direct your attention to the Sonntaa Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9789 1 last paragraph on Page 3 and ask you to take a minute to i
2 review that.
3 (Indicating.)
4 See if that refreshes your recollection.
5 MR. GUILD: The last paragraph of Page 3?
6 MR. BERRY: Yes, of the March 29th memo.
7 MR. GUILD: Oh, I'm sorry. Okay.
8 A I remember saying that.
9 BY MR. BERRY:
10 Q You do remember saying that?
11 A Yes, I do.
12 Q Do you recall now whether you attended a meeting in_the 13 morning on March 29th?
14 A I really don't recall going in the morning.
15 Q But you could have; you're just not sure; is that it?
16 A If that was f rom the morning, then I was there in the 17 morning, but I really don't remember it.
18 0 You stated, in response to a question from Mr. Miller, 19 that in part you were unhappy -- that's my word, not 20 yours -- with the NRC inspection report because it 21 failed to identify the 1,000-welds-in-a-day checklist;
- 22 is that correct?
I 23 A That's part of it, yes, sir.
24 Q Mr. Perryman, do you recall if you talked to anyone from 25 the NRC in connection -- that was doing an inspection of
{]}
Sonntag Reporting S3rvice, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9790 Cs U
1 the concerns expressed by the Comstock inspectors?
2 A Rephrase that or something. I'm missing something.
3 0 I believe you stated that you didn' t -- you don' t recall 4 meeting with Mr. Mendez, the gentleman sitting to my 5 left.
6 (Indicating.)
7 A I don't believe so, unless he was the one that was there 8 when the 20 -- when the 20 of us walked upstairs.
9 Q No, that wasn't him.
10 How about the gentleman sitting to my right?
11 (Indicating.)
12 This is Mr. Neisler.
O 13 Have you ever met him before?
14 A Not that I can remember.
15 0 Well, you met Mr. McGregor and Mr. Schulz on March 29th.
16 A Okay.
17 0 Outside of those two individuals and the two gentlemen 18 sitting at the table with me, do you recall if you spoke 19 to anybody else from the NRC regarding their concerns?
20 A I had a phone call once from somebody -- I don't 21 remember who -- when I was at work one day, answering 22 that they had investigated that cable pan thing or 23 something.
24 I remember that, but I don' t remember who it was.
{} 25 O Do you recall about when you received that phone call?
Sonntaa Reportina Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9791 0
1 A No, I really don' t recall when it was.
2 O I believe you also indicated that another problem that 3 you had with the NRC inspection report that Mr. Miller 4 showed you was Mr. Zych, an unqualified weld inspector?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q Did you think the NRC should pull his certifications?
7 A Anytime a man is in -- is in question, whether it's 8 welding, terms or whatever, as far as I'm concerned, if 9 there's a doubt that the man is not capable of doing his 10 job, his certifications should be pulled and not wait 11 until a year later or whenever -- whenever it's going to l
12 get done.
< (
13 Q Do you know if it's the practice of the NRC to order the 14 revocation of an inspector's certifications?
15 A I feel when you have a lack of communication -- I feel 16 when you have the lack of communication with management 17 that we had at one time there, that you have to get an 18 answer from somebody.
19 At the time, 26 or 27 people believed they came and 20 did the right thing by coming and seeing you -- your 21 organization and stating what they felt were problems, 22 right or wrong.
i 4
23 We expected an answer, and we expected it done at 24 that time; not that six months, a year and a half, two
(} 25 years af ter they load fuel, af ter they start this place Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
. Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9792 0
1 up, somebody is going to give them an answer of what 2 they're doing.
3 If the place is running, it does no damn good to 4 come up and say something.
5 0 Mr. Perryman, as you sit here today, do you feel that 6 you haven' t -- the inspectors haven' t received an answer 7 to their concerns f rom the NRC?
8 -A We f elt that -- all right. Let me put it this way.
9 I felt that we came to you with something in 4
-10 confidence back in -- whenever the hell it was. I'never 11 expected to come out here like this.
12 I didn't expect it to come in the newspapers, to
- 13 bring the stuff you read in the newspapers today, if you 14 can believe half of it, because that turns people i 15 against a product, let's say.
16 They're turning their heads against, say, nuclear 17 power because of what we' ve done here, and that wasn' t l
18 the object of it.
l 19 0 Is it your understanding, Mr. Perryman, that the NRC has 20 disclosed your concerns to the press or to outsiders?
I 21 A The NRC is the only people that had my name.
I
! 22 0 You received some correspondence f rom the NRC --
23 A Right.
24 0 -- shortly after the March 29th meeting?
25 A Right.
(]}
l l
l Sonntaa Reportina Service, Ltd.
l Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
. , _ . , , , , . . . . - . _ _ , _ - . _ , . ~ . . _ _ _ , . _ _ , , _ , _ , , , , _ _ _ _ . . . . _ _ _ _ . . . . _ _ , _ _ , ~ , , , . . , _ _ _ _ , . _ _ . - . _
9793 m
U 1 Q Did you disclose that correspondence to anyone?
2 A (No response.)
3 Q Did you share it -- did you give a copy of it to 4 anybody?
5 A The correspondence -- hit me with it again.
6 What is that?
7 0 Intervenors' Exhibit 42 -- let me show you.
8 A You mean this part here?
9 (Indicating.)
10 0 Do you recall if you received a copy of this memo f rom 11 the NRC?
g-) 12 (Indicating.)
'V 13 MR. BERRY: Let the record reflect I'm 14 showing the witness a copy of the April 5, 1985, memo.
15 A Yes, I've seen that before.
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Is that 42-A that you' re 17 showing him?
18 MR. BERRY: Yes, Mr. Chairman.
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN : Intervenors' Exhibit 42-A?
20 MR. BERRY: Yes.
21 BY MR. BERRY:
22 0 The part of this document I was referring to when I said 23 " correspondence" -- the question was: Do you recall if 24 you gave a copy of this document to anybody?
{} 25 A No, sir. I believe I've still got mine at home.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
_ - . _ - =
i 9794 O
1 Q Did you show it to anyone?
2 A My wife.
3 0 Do you know if any of the other inspectors who may have 4 received a copy of it -- if they showed it to anybody?
5 A That's possible.
6 0 Now, I believe the concern that you had at the March 7 29th meeting related to the cable pan walkdown 8 inspections?
9 A That's correct.
10 0 Have you reviewed the NRC inspectors' treatment of that 11 particular concern in the inspection report?
12 A I believe I read it at one time. I don't even remember 13 what it says, though.
14 0 Do you recall, at the time that you read it, if you were 15 satisfied or dissatisfied with it?
16 A No, I don't.
17 Q Well, for the record, I will state that it's Page 18 of 18 that inspection report, Concern No. 7.
19 Have you had an opportunity to review it?
20 A Yes, I have.
21 Am I happy with it? Is that what you're asking?
22 0 Are you satisfied -- well, tell us: What do you think 23 of -- what is your -- what is your opinion of the NRC's 24 resolution of that concern?
(} 25 A I f eel it didn' t answer the questions.
A Sonntaa Reportina Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9795 1 THE WITNESS: Can I give you a question?
2 MR. BERRY: Excuse me?
3 THE WITNESS: Can I give you a question on 4 that?
5 I'm going to try and clear it up for you.
, 6 JUDGE GROSSMAN: All right.
7 What is the problem? Why don' t you state your --
8 THE WITNESS: What I'm trying to say is when 9 this came up, the plant is not an as-built. It wasn't 10 built to be an as-built. It doesn't state nothing in 11 there that they' re building it to an as-built now.
12 That's what I'm trying to state: When they 13 reviewed something, at least something I know of -- the 14 rest of it I couldn't even tell you what the book says 15 -- we put in the concern that they were as-builting 16 cable pan hangers. The problem with that is they were 17 up in the air already. Some had been up since as early 18 as 1979 or so.
19 It showed that there was lack of good installations 20 to the diagrams or prints given by S & L, that the l
21 welding was in -- was not to what it should be.
22 All we' re saying is yeah, there was an NCR 708 and 23 709 written. I understand that. I knew that before 24 that came down.
l
{} 25 But they' re not -- that 708 and 709 is still Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
I Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9796 O
1 turning it around, and you' re as-builting something that 2 had a design. That plant was designed one way, and 3 they're as-builting it another.
4 Now, of course, it will be all right, because now 5 the print is going to show you what I looked at, not 6 what was installed.
7 BY MR. BERRY:
8 Q And you don't recall whether you discussed your concern 9 with the NRC inspector?
10 A No, sir.
11 MR. BERRY: That's all the questions I have, 12 Mr. Chairman.
O,,
13 BOARD EXAMINATION 14 BY JUDGE COLE:
15 Q Mr. Perryman, in response to a question f rom Mr. Miller 16 concerning tolerances in the section early on in his 17 cross examination when you were discussing l
18 configurations and work points, he asked you if anybody l
, 19 told you not to write up f aulty hangers; and your 20 response to that, sir, if I recall correctly, was, "No,
! 21 not then."
I 22 A That's correct.
l l 23 What I was trying to say was during the walkdown, 24 we did not, as inspectors, write those hangers up that i
{} 25 wasn't -- they did not get written up until after the l
Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
i 9797 O
U 1 Rev. A-Rev. O review. That is the only time we did not 2 write something up immediately as we seen it.
3 0 All right, sir.
4 Well, did anybody at any time ever tell you not to 5 write up f aulty hangers other than for that program?
6 A Oh, no, sir.
7 JUDGE COLE: All right, sir. Thank you.
8 BOARD EXAMINATION 9 BY JUDGE CALLIH AN:
10 0 I'd like to come back just for a moment to your remarks 11 a few moments ago about design and as-built. I just say gg 12 that much to identify the subject.
'~
13 A Yes, sir.
14 0 If you can recall the question and the instance, can you 15 elaborate a little bit on that?
l 16 As I heard it, your statement was that -- the 17 implication is that the plant isn't built as designed.
18 Now, did you mean that?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 0 And in what -- what has happened or what should happen 21 to make the plant acceptable at present, whether it 22 conforms exactly to the original design of ten years ago 23 or more? -
24 A Well, what I was trying to explain was that we work off 25 of drawings that were designed by S & L Engineering, I
[]}
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
L4 9798 1 guess. They reference where a hanger should go in the 2 plant at a specific location.
3 Then they.had -- what we had back then was called ,
4 HL's and HO's, which listed the type of a hanger and the 5 configuration of that hanger: certain size members, 6 certain work points, elevations, just the typical design i
7 of that hanger and how it should be.
8 When you as-built something --
9 0 would you stop and tell me what you mean by what you 10 just said, "when you as-built something"?
11 What do you mean by that expression?
12 Maybe that's my basic trouble.
O 13 A Okay. What I'm saying is this hanger was put up one 14 way.
{
15 0 Yes.
16 A Right or wrong, it was up there.
17 Now what we've done is turned around and go back 18 and draw them a map of how that thing actually is now.
19 Q And the result of that is an as-built drawing?
20 A Yes, sir.
l 21 Q All right. I'm with you now.
22 A So it's not the way they originally designed that 23 hanger. It's something that we went out and showed them 24 what was there, and now they' re going to accept it 1
(} 25 because that's what's up there.
i Sonntaa Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9799 O
1 0 On what basis do they accept it, in your opinion?
2 A Well, they would have to structurally approve it.
3 0 All' right.
4 So it goes back to somebody, maybe Engineering --
5 A S & L Engineering, yes, sir.
6 0 -- or something like that?
7 JUDGE CALLIHAN: Thank-you. That's all.
8 BOARD EXAMINATION 9 BY JUDGE COLE:
10 0 I can understand your concern about that situation, Mr.
11 Perryman, but I guess I want to probe a little bit 12 further to see whether you have any knowledge as to the 13 desirability of the end result.
14 As I see that situation as it's been explained to 15 me here, as I understand it, these hangers were not put 16 up exactly as originally designed, and then they were 17 reviewed -- well, let's see.
18 Do you know what was done with the hangers?
19 Were they reviseed for adequacy and then passed on 20 by Engineering as being adequate or inadequate?
21 A From that cable pan walkdown, f rom what we were told, 22 they were sent back to Chicago to S & L, to their 23 structural, and evaluated f or acceptability the way they 24 were installed that way as an as-built, then.
25 0 All right, sir.
(}
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9800 1 So do you know of any instances or do you have any 2 knowledge where the hangers were, in fact, not adequate 3 and still remain inadequate?
4 A Oh, no, sir, no, sir.
5 Q So your concern is just it wasn't built the way it was 6 originally designed, and it's just not the way to do 7 things, in your view?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 JUDGE COLE: All right, sir. Thank you.
10 JUDGE GROSSMA!1: Mr. Guild?
11 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 12 BY MR. GUILD:
O 13 0 Well, as I understand it, the normal practice for a 14 configuration on cable pan hangers would be to compare 15 the as-built condition which you observed in the field 16 to the design specifications and details and procedures 17 that you' re inspecting to --
18 A That's correct.
19 0 -- correct?
20 And then you would document each and every instance 21 in which the as-built condition failed to meet the i
22 acceptance criteria of the specifications?
23 A That's correct.
I 24 Q And you'd document those on some kind of a document l
(} 25 provided for in the Quality Assurance Program for Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
, , . , .n., , , . , , - , - . - , . _ , - - -- n , . , . _ , - . , , , _ , , , - , . . , , _ , _ _ _ _ , , _ _ _ _ . - _ . _ , _ . - . . _ _ . ,
9801 0
1 documenting deficiencies; it might be an ICR or it might 2 be an NCR?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q But at least there would be some document that showed 5 that there was some failure to meet those acceptance 6 criteria in the way the hanger was originally put up?
7 A That's correct.
8 0 I take it, then, the process is that somebody in 9 Engineering reviews the ICR and/or the NCR and makes a 10 determination whether or not it can be used as is or 11 whether there is rework required?
12 A That's correct.
p)g n
13 Q But in this case they just short-circuited the whole 14 process and went out and looked at it as it was in the 15 field and said, "That's okay, that's okay, that's okay,"
16 after they did the engineering re-evaluation of the 17 as-built condition, without the intermediate step of 18 writing ICR's and NCR's to document that the condition 19 actually found in the field was discrepant; is that an 20 accurate understanding of what happened?
21 A That's the way I look at it.
22 0 So as far as you know, then, the end product may be 23 judged okay by an engineer, but there's no documentation 24 that the end product was discrepant according to the
(} 25 original acceptance criteria?
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 237.-0262
9802 0
1 A Only if you look at 708 and 709, which they' re saying 2 that they feel that there's some bad hangers, so they 3 are redoing the walkdown.
4 0 Is that what NCR's 708 and 709 -- is that the basis for 5 those NCR's, as you understand it: bad hangers?
6 A Yes. They had some hangers that were in question, and 7 they felt that they would need the walkdown in order to 8 check them, I guess.
9 0 All right.
10 Well, do you know how many discrepant conditions 11 there are on those hangers?
12 By that I mean conditions where the actual as-built O 13 condition failed to meet the original acceptance 14 criteria.
15 Were there more than two instances?
16 A (No response.)
17 0 There were two NCR's, 708 and 709.
18 Were there more than two discrepant hanger 19 configurations?
20 A Oh, definitely. 708 and 709 included more than two l
21 hangers.
22 0 Were there hundreds or maybe thousands of discrepant 23 hanger conditions?
24 A Without having been in the review of the Rev. A and Rev.
(}.
25 O's, I couldn' t give you an answer.
Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9803 A
V 1 0 I heard your testimony earlier that virtually every 2 hanger you looked at had some respect in which it failed 3 to meet the acceptance criteria.
4 A Every hanger that the five engineers looked at.
5 0 That's what I meant to say, yes.
6 A They came out and said there was some discrepancy. It 7 might have been weld or configuration.
8 0 Were those in the hundreds or thousands?
9 A There's 250 hangers in that one room.
10 0 In that one room?
11 A Yeah.
12 Q All right, sir.
13 Now, when you were asked in your deposition, Mr.
14 Perryman, to -- you were asked in your deposition 15 whether you were aware of the result of the NRC's 16 inspection of the March,1985, complaints, your 17 testimony was, "Yes, I believe I was," and counsel for 18 the company then showed you the inspection report that 19 you were just shown again today.
i 20 Do you recall that?
21 A You mean do I recall seeing this?
22 0 Do you remember it being shown to you at your 23 deposition?
24 A Yes, sir.
(} 25 0 Okay.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9804 1 And at that time in your deposition you identified 2 a couple of instances where you thought it was -- you 3 were not satisfied with the NRC's work?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 0 Okay.
6 Did you exhaustively review that report at the 7 deposition?
8 Did you go page by page through that report?
9 A No, sir.
10 Q Did you go page by page through it today?
11 A Oh, no, sir.
-- 12 Q Are those two instances in which you said you weren' t 13 satisfied just two instances you happened to observed in 14 the limited review that you conducted at your 15 deposition?
16 A Yes, and they were basically the ones I had brought up.
17 MR. GUILD: Okay. I'm not going to ask you I
i 18 to go through page by page.
19 (Laughter.)
20 THE WITNESS: Good.
21 MR. GUILD: I have no further questions, Mr.
22 Chairman.
23 MR. MILLER: I just have one or two.
24 RECROSS EXAMINATION
{} 25 BY MR. MILLER:
l l
Sonntaa Reportina Service, Ltd.
i Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9805 1 Q The 250 discrepancies -- or 250 hangers --
2 A Yes, sir.
3 0 -- that you observed -- and I think you said that each 4 one had a discrepancy of some sort, be it a welding og 5 configuration inspection -- that inspection was not a 6 part of this cable pan hanger walkdown?
7 A That was prior to it.
8 Q Prior to it and part of your normal duties as a welding 9 and configuration inspector; correct?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q It was not a special project of any sort?
- 12 A No, sir.
13 0 And do you recall, Mr. Perryman, that NCR's 708 and 709 l
14 dealt with all cable pan hangers supplied by Systems 15 Control Corporation?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q And, in fact, Systems Control Corporation had supplied 18 almost all the cable pan hangers that were installed --
l 19 that are installed in the Braidwood plant; correct?
I l 20 A Parts of them.
21 Q Parts of them?
22 A Yes, sir.
I 23 Q All right.
l 24 Did you understand that the cable pan walkdown l
l
(} 25 process was, in fact, the corrective action for NCR's I
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. '
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9806 l l
O 1 708 and 709?
2 A Yes, I would say that.
3 MR. MILLER: No further questions.
4 RECROSS EXAMINATION I 5 BY MR. BERRY:
6 Q Mr. Perryman, you did receive a copy of the NRC's 7 inspection report f rom the NRC; is that correct?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q Do you remember if you reviewed the report when you 10 received it?
11 A I know I read through it.
12 Q Did you read it all?
13 A Probably not.
14 Q Outside of the two concerns that you discussed today --
15 the unqualified welders and the failure to find the 16 inspection report supposedly authored by Mr. DeWald --
17 do you recall if, at the time you first received the 18 report, you had questions about other parts of the 19 report?
, 20 Do you remember?
21 A I believe looking for the part on Saklak, and I believe 22 that was in there, that we already knew the answer on j 23 that, so there would be nothing else on there.
24 MR. BERRY: No further questions.
r
{} 25 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
! Sonntag_ Reporting Service, Ltd.
! Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
9807 O
j 1 (Continued) 2 BY MR. GUILD:
! 3 0 I mean, you did find the cable pan -- you looked today j 4 at the NRC's report on the cable pan hanger walkdown i 5 program?.
) 6 A Yes, sir.
- 7 Q Now, the cable pan hangers that you referred to earlier, d
8 the 250 hangers in this particular room -- was that the
- 9 Unit 2 switch gear room?
j 10 A Switch gear.
11 0 All right.
12 Were those cable pan hangers later within the scope l
() 13 of cable pan hanger walkdown program?
14 A Oh, yes.
15 Q So the 250 hangers you saw in that one room with a
- 16 number of discrepancies that you identified in that one 17 instance and you wrote ICR's and NCR's on some of those
, 1 18 -- those were a part of the cable pan hangers that i i
j 19 became part of the walkdown program?
! 20 A Yes. They would have been rewalkdown.
l MR. GUILD:
21 That's all I have.
22 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Fine. Thank you very much 23 for testifying, and --
l 24 THE WITNESS: You're welcome.
1 I,
(} 25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -- you're excused now and i
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
l Geneva, Illinois 60134 I
i (312) 232-0262
- _ _ _ _ - - ~ . _ _ _ . , . _ _ _ _ _ . _ - . _ _ _ _ _ . . - . . . . _ _ _ . - _ . . - -_,
9808 1 chances are you won' t be called back.
2 We'd ask that you not discuss your testimony with 3 anyone.
4 THE WITNESS: All right.
5 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay, fine. Thank you very 6 much.
7 THE WITNESS: Okay.
8 (Witness excused.)
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Why don' t we recess until 10 9:00 o' clock tomorrow morning.
11 (WHEREUPON, at the hour of 5:10 P. M., the 12 hearing of the above-entitled matter was
-)
~
J 13 continued to the 6th day of August, at 14 the hour of 9:00 o' clock A. M.)
15 16
- 17 l
~
18 19 l
t 20 l 21 l 22 23 24 25 l C) l l
Sonntaa Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 l (312) 232-0262 l
7-CERTIFICATE OF OFFICIAL REPORTER This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION in the matter of:
NAME OF PROCEEDING: BRAIDWOOD STATION UNITS 1 6 2 COMMONWEALTH EDISON COMPANY DOCKET NO.: 50-456/457-OL PLACE: JOLIET, ILLINOIS O DATE: TUESDAY, AUGUST 5, 1986 were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
(sigt) jyyjf) j (TYPED) d d V & f (h (/
[
Nancy J. Ilopp Official Reporter Reporter's Affiliation l
,. n v
.