ML20203D130
| ML20203D130 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Braidwood  |
| Issue date: | 07/15/1986 |
| From: | Atomic Safety and Licensing Board Panel |
| To: | |
| References | |
| CON-#386-088, CON-#386-88 OL, NUDOCS 8607210161 | |
| Download: ML20203D130 (229) | |
Text
. _ _ _ _ _
I ORGWAL
'O UN11ED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION IN THE MATTER OF:
C DOCKET NO:
BRAIDWOOD STATION 50-456/457-OL UNITS 1 S2 COM310NWEALTH EDISON COMPANY
{
(EVIDENTIARY HEARING) ---
O l LOCATION: JOLIET, ILLINOIS PAGES: 7653 - 7881 l
l DATE: TUESDAY, JdLY 15, 1986
/0 I 0\
ace-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
O Ofl1cialReporters 444 North CapitolStreet Washington, D.C. 20001 (202)347-3700 NATIONWIDE COVERAGE
7653 O
1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3 BEFORE THE ATOMIC SAFETY AND LICENSING BOARD 4
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _,_ _ _ _ _ _X 5 :
In the Matter of: :
6 : Docket No. 50-456 COMMONWEALTH EDISON COMPANY : 50-457 7 :
(Braidwood Station, Units 1 :
8 and 2) :
__________________X 9
10 ,
Page: 7653 - 7881 11 College of St. Francis 12 500 North Wilcox
(]) Joliet, Illinois 60431 Tuesday, July 15, 1986 14 15 The hearing in the above-entitled matter convened 16 at 9:00 A. M.
j 17 BEFORE: i JUDGE HERBERT GROSSMAN, Chairman 19 Atomic Safety and Licensing Board U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission I 20 Washington, D. C.
21 JUDGE RICHARD (. COLE, Member, 22 Atomic Safety and Licensing Board U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission Washington, D. C.
23 24 JUDGE A. DIXON CALLIHAN, Member, Atomic Safety and Licensing Board U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission
() 25 Washington, D. C.
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1 APPEARANCES. j l
2 On behalf of the Applicant:
l 3 MICHAEL I. MILLER, ESQ.
JOSEPH GALLO, ESQ.
4 ELENA Z. KEZELIS, ESQ.
Isham, Lincoln & Beale 5 Three First National Plaza Chicago, Illinois 60602 )
6 7 On behalf of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission Staff:
8 ,
ELAINE I. CHAN, ESQ. '
9 GREGORY ALAN BERRY, ESQ.
U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission 10 7335 Old Georgetown Road Bethesda, Maryland 20014 ,
11 On behalf of the Intervenor:
12 f~)
ROBERT GUILD, ESQ.
13 14 15 16 17 i
18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Cl)
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1 EXHIBIT INDEX . MARKED RECEIVED Applicant's Exhibits Nos.
2 92 and 93 7728 Staff Exhibit No. 12 7743 3 Staff Exhibit No. 13 7748 Staff Exhibit No. 14 7748 4 Staff Exhibits Nos. 12 and 13 7756 5
TESTIMONY OF JOHN DAVID SEEDERS 6 CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued)
BY MR. GUILD: 7662 7
CROSS EXAMINATION 8 BY MR. BERRY: e 7729 9 REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. MILLER 7776 ,
10 BOARD EXAMINATION 11 BY JUDGE COLE 7850 12 BOARD EXAMINATION
() BY JUDGE CALLIHAN 7855 BOARD EXAMINATION 14 BY JUDGE GROSSMAN 7862 15 BOARD EXAMINATION BY JUDGE COLE 7863 16 BOARD EXAMINATION ,
17 BY JUDGE CALLIHAN 7864 1 18 BOARD EXAMINATION l BY JUDGE GROSSMAN 7864 1 19 RECROSS EXAMINATION '
20 BY MR. GUILD 7865 21 BOARD EXAMINATION BY JUDGE CALLIHAN 7872 22 RECROSS EXAMINATION 23 BY MR. BERRY 7873 24 REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. MILLER 7876 Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Let's go on the record.
2 The hearing is reconvened.
3 This is the 38th day of hearing.
4 We've had a discussion off the record with regard 5 to scheduling, and we've decided that next week's 6 schedule will just be Wednesday afternoon, all day 7 Thursday and half of Friday, in order to allow the Board 8 to catch up with its paper work on some pending motions, 9 for which we are going to need Monday and Tuesday to 10 work in the office.
11 With regard to the overall schedule, Mr. Miller 12 apparently, and Mr. Gallo, intend to rest their case 13 with the conclusion of Mr. Seeders' testimony, and then 14 Mr. Guild will begin presenting his case in chief.
15 We would like, however, to'have Mr. Kurtz in, who 16 had originally been scheduled as a witness, after Mr.
17 Seeders, for a few short questions from the Board, which 18 will take less than half-an-hour, I'm sure, if even 19 that, related to what had originally been intended to be 20 proffered as his prefiled testimony. l l
21 My understanding is the parties will not be in a 22 position to question him with regard to the matters that 23 they may have in mind for him, Mr. Kurtz being a 24 prospective rebuttal witness, and, therefore, we'll take
() 25 the parties off the hook on that right now and say that Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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O 1 we'll confine the questioning only to the matters that 2 the Board brings up, and that even with regard to those ,
3 matters, the parties can ask further questions.
4 They don't waive their right to ask questions on 5 those matters at a later time when Mr. Kurtz is offered 6 as an Applicant witness.
7 MR. GALLO: Judge Grossman, if I could be 8 heard on that point.
9 I would request that the questioning of Mr. Kurtz, 10 in response to Board questions, be limited to questions 11 by the Board only at this time, and that questions on 12 Mr. Kurtz' rebuttal and any matters raised by the Board O, 13 be proffered by the parties at the time he's called as a 14 rebuttal witnessed.
15 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. That's fine.
16 Is that acceptable to you, Mr. Guild?
17 That's basically what we had in mind, except, 18 perhaps, for some follow-up questioning on what the 19 Board opens up, but we have no objection to even j 20 dispensing with that and letting the parties question on 21 their own at a later time.
22 MR. GUILD: In theory, I don't oppose that 23 notion, Judge.
24 I guess one problem is I don't know what the 25 Board's inquiry is, and I'd like to reserve judgment
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7658 1 until I hear it; and secondly, I may be in a position !
l 2 where we would oppose certain -- on certain scope I l
3 grounds, what might be elicited from Mr. Kurtz as 4 rebuttal testimony.
5 Anticipating a position of that sort, I don't want 6 to make the general waiver of objections.
7 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. I don't think that
'8 would be proper to limit the parties, looking at a pig 9 in a poke now, without knowing what we're going to be 10 asking; but I really don't think it's going to take up 11 that much time.
~
12 Mr. Berry, is there any position the Staff wants to O 13 take on that?
14 MR. BERRY: No, your Honor.
15 The Board's proposal is sat'isfactory to the Staff.
16 MR. MILLER: Your Honor --
17 MR. GUILD: Just --
18 MR. MILLER: I'm sorry.
19 MR. GUILD: Just a mechanical point.
20 Mr. Saklak is anticipated to be our first direct 21 witness, and we had expected just to kind of let you 22 know where we see things going today.
23 We thought Mr. Seeders would likely be completed by 24 the noon hour. That was perhaps somewhat optimistic.
() 25 Mr. Saklak was asked to be present at 1:00 o' clock; Ronntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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() 1 1 and we might reach him.
2 I have an opening statement that I would like to 3 make at the conclusion of whatever is Applicant's case.
4 If it's the Board's expectation that there are 5 other matters, such as Mr. Kurtz, that will come up, 6 perhaps we can try to reach Mr. Saklak now and simply 7 tell him he should stay at work and not try to come down 8 today.
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. There is no urgency 10 to have Mr. Kurtz here.
11 I didn't realize that you were going to complete or 12 contemplated completing Mr. Seeders today.
13 We can go on with Mr. Saklak and we can call Mr.
i 14 Kurtz after Mr. Saklak's completed his testimony.
15 , MR. GUILD: Does it matter to anybody?
16 MR. MILLER: No, it really -- that sort of 17 informal scheduling is just fine with us.
18 There is one other --
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I didn't think we would '
20 reach Mr. Kurtz this week, anyway, so I thought it would ;
21 be next week, and let's leave the scheduling that way.
22 MR. MILLER: There is one matter that I would i
23 like to discuss with the Board, however, and that has to '
24 do with the conclusion of our direct case.
25 There is one matter that is potentially not yet
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1 tied up in terms of our direct presentation. That has 2 to do with the chain of custody relating to the weld 3 test coupons that Mr. Puckett was tested on in later 4 August of 1984.
5 As the Board may recall, Mr. Vannier was our 6 witness who had performed an independent evaluation of 7 Mr. Puckett's test; and the question was raised with 8 respect to whether or not the exhibits could be given a 9 proper foundation for admission into evidence.
10 With the Board's permission, we would like to 11 reserve our evidentiary presentation on that, if we 12 determine that it is still necessary.
13 It is my recollection -- and I haven't had a chance 14 to check the transcript -- that Mr. Puckett may have 15 himself testified in such a mann'er so that the necessity 16 for going through the testimony, which would provide the j 17 foundation for those weld test coupons, is no longer 18 necessary.
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN: That's my recollection, too; 20 in response, I believe to Board questioning.
21 MR. MILLER: I believe that's correct.
22 But I would like to just check the transcript, and 23 I'll try and do that promptly; but I hope that, you
' l 24 know, if we cay we rest, that there will not be an 25 overly-technical interpretation.
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1 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Failure of proof.
2 MR. MILLER: Yes, with respect to a failure 3 of proof on that matter; and there may be others, 4 although I don't think so.
5 I think that everything else that has been raised,
- 6 in terms of rulings by the Board on our motions to admit 7 evidence -- I believe that those matters can -- are 8 properly handled as part of our rebuttal case, should we 9 choose to provide a witness who can authenticate a 10 specific document to which the Board said there had not 11 been a proper testimonial foundation laid with the 12 witnesses that we had. j O, 13 JUDGE GROSSMAN
- Well, I believe that there l
14 are -- there's at least one matter still open th2t the i 1
15 Board had requested, but perhaps' Mr. Kurtz will help us 16 on that score.
17 MR. MILLER: Could you refresh me?
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Yes.
- 19 You were going to find a published ruling by AWS.
1 20 JUDGE COLE: American Welding Society. l l
21 MR. MILLER: Yes. Thank you. -
22 That has, in fact, slipped. I 23 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Anything further now?
24 MR. GUILD: Well, Judge, only on that score,
() 25 on the chain of custody issue, I have no difficulty i
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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7662 1 accepting Mr. Miller's proposal and simply agreeing that 2 he can supply that, but that alone, as within the scope 3 of his direct case.
4 If he has other matters, I do believe it's 5 incumbent on the Applicant to make his decision about 6 when to rest his case, and I don't want to be heard as 7 giving him an open-ended waiver.
8 So I would say on the chain of custody question, 9 that's fine, but I'd ask him to consider what other --
10 what other evidentiary holes there may be in the record, .
l 11 and to fill those or not b. fore he rests.
12 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, I think that's a ,
13 proper request.
14 Of course, if Applicant discovers at some time that 15 they failed to supply something that's critical to their ,
16 case -- to its case, it certainly can request that the !
17 Board allow a proffer of evidence at that time.
18 I don't think that we've been overly technical in 19 keeping the parties from correcting any errors that they 1 1
20 have made in either forgetting to ask questions on 21 direct and having to do it on redirect or anything like 1
22 that.
23 So when we come to that, if anything like ti:at 24 occurs, we'll just play it by ear.at that time.
l
(} 25 Okay. Judge Callihan reminds me that we asked l
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1 Staff to supply some information, and, of course, Staff 2 hasn't put its case on yet, so --
3 MR. BERRY: Yes. ,
4 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -- we didn't expect to get 5 it yet.
6 Mr. Berry.
i 7 MR. BERRY: Well, just so I'm clear, the 8 Board has asked the Staff throughout the proceeding a
! 9 number of questions to address in the proceeding, and 10 also the Board has asked to Staff to produce documents.
11 I take it that the question that Judge Callihan is 12 alluding to are the questions you want to address 13 through the witnesses?
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Yes, that's correct.
15 MR. BERRY: Yes.
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay, fine.
17 I think that clears the air as far as all the 18 pending preliminary matters.
19 Mr. Guild.
20 MR. GUILD: Just an inquiry, Mr. Chairman.
21 At the recess of last week, we anticipated the 22 Board would provide some report to the parties on the OI 23 briefing, and I gather that the Board doesn't anticipate 24 doing that.
25 f]) JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, all we can say about Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 it is that we've had it.
2 MR. GUILD: Okay.
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN: And that we have to then 4 consider what was told to us and make our 5 recommendation --
6 MR. GUILD: Pine.
7 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -- on that, which we will 8 hope to do at the beginning of next week.
9 MR. BERRY: Just one final point.
10 I would just like the Board to know that the Staff 11 would like to make an opening statement, too.
12 I heard'Intervenors saying that they anticipated O 13 making one after the conclusion of Applicant's case, and 14 if it's fine, the Staff would like to follow Intervenor.
15 JUDGE GROSSMAN: In making the opening 16 statement right after Intervenors --
l 17 MR. BERRY: Yes. ,
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -- or before Staff puts on
! 19 its own case?
20 MR. BERRY: Right after the Intervenors.
21 JUDGE GROSSMAN: That's fine. No objection 22 to that.
23 Okay. We can proceed now with the witness.
24 Mr. Seeders, you remain under oath.
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
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1 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. Mr. Guild.
2 MR. GUILD: Good morning, Mr. Seeders.
I 3 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
l 4 CROSS EXAMINATION 5 (Continued) ,
6 BY MR. GUILD:
1 7 Q Let me see if I can recap where we were at the end of z 8 your last examination.
i 9 As I recall, you've testified that you had 10 performed the -- essentially the sole duties as the ,
11 Comstock Calibrations Inspector over a period of years, i
.' 12 under, at the end, the Lead supervision of Mr. Larry
! 13 Phillips; correct?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q With, in turn, Mr. Saklak above Mr. Phillips and Mr.
16 DeWald above Mr. Saklak?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q That neither Mr. Phillips nor Mr. Saklak, to your 19 knowledge, were certified in the calibrations area?
l 20 A That is correct. , l 21 Q And that, in essence, they spent little time directly ;
22 working in the calibrations area and essentially left i
23 you to exercise control over the area on your own?
24 A Yes, sir.
(} 25 0 Mr. DeWald as well, as the Quality Control Manager, may Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 or may not have been certified in the calibrations area, 2 but he, as was the case with Saklak and Phillips, spent 3 little time dealing with the subject?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 0 And you had had no problems that were brought to your 6 attention by your supervision with respect to your 7 discharge of your responsibilities in that area over a 8 period of years up until the summer of '847 9 A Yes, sir. !
10 Q Now, I want to cover some ground that Mr. Miller covered 11 with you after that point. . I l
12 I understood from your testimony that at some l
O 13 point, it came to your attention that there had been l 14 these adverse audit findings from the CECO audit 15 conducted in May of '84 with respect to the'three 16 instances where no ICR's were identified as initiated 17 for out-of-calibration tools? I 18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q That came to your attention?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q All right.
22 You were given an assignment to conduct a review of 23 some sort in order for Comstock to respond to the audit 24 item; correct?
25 A Yes, sir.
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V 1 Q Now, whose responsibility did you understano -- within 2 the Comstock organization, whose responsibility was it 1
3 to respond to the CECO audit?
4 A Mr. Seltmann.
5 0 All right.
4 6 And he was the QA Manager; correct?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q All right.
9 He would formP.y write whatever was to be written 10 to Edison?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q Did you have any responsibility for direct response to
- O 13 the CECO audit yourself?
14 A No, sir.
15 Q And did you ever directly respond to the CECO audit?
16 Did you ever author a document or response in writing to 17 CECO?
18 A No, sir.
l 19 Q So whatever got communicated to CECO was done, as far as 20 you knew, by Mr. Seltmann?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q Now, Mr. DeWald asserts that he directed you to parform 23 a 100-percent review of your calibration records to 24 ascertain whether or not the type of deficiency 25 identified in the CECO audit was more extensive than the
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V 1 examples identified.
2 Did DeWald ever speak to you directly about such a 3 review prior to the time of your warning?
4 A No, sir.
5 0 All right.
6 Who did speak to you directly about any such 7 review; not a 100-percent necessarily, but any review at 8 all responsive to the CECO audit?
9 A Mr. Seltmann.
10 Q All right.
11 Now, as you stated to Mr. Miller, you couldn't 12 recall directly the time when Mr. Seltmann first spoke O
k/ 13 to you on the subject?
14 A That's correct.
15 Q The audit finding is dated May 26th. That's Applicant's 16 Exhibit 83.
17 I take it that you didn't hear of it -- you didn't 18 learn of the finding or the need to respond to the 19 finding until after the 26th of May when the report was 20 published; true?
21 A Correct.
22 Q So it fell after that date.
23 There's evidence that -- there's evidence that you 24 and Mr. Snyder worked a Saturday in which Mr. Snyder 25 performed a records review under your direction as a
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v 1 trainee, and that that was on the 21st of July.
2 So would you accept, then, from those two dates, 3 those facts, that you were informed of the instructions i 4 to perform a review some time between May 26th and July 5 21st?
j 6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q Were you -- what, in fact, do you recall Mr. Seltmann 8 initially telling you about the review that you were to ,
9 >
perform?
10 A My first contact with Mr. Seltmann was very brief.
11 He informed me that we needed a partial review of 12 my calibration records to answer a CECO audit.
13 Q All right.
14 Do you recall whether Mr. Seltmann showed you the 15 audit report at that time?
t I 16 A No, sir, he did not.
17 Q All right.
- 18 Did Mr. Seltmann explain to you what the nature of 19 the audit finding was that you were to respond to?
20 A No, sir.
21 Q Did you have an understanding at that time of what the i
22 audit finding was that you were supposed to be 23 responding to? If Mr. Seltmann didn't tell you, did you i
24 have an understanding from other sources? l 1
() 25 A I -- I can't recall discussing -- he -- he just asked
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1 for a general review of my records to see if there were 2 any deficiencies in the records.
3 (Indicating.)
4 0 All right.
- 5 Now, the audit finding, as I recall having looked 6 at the document, cited to a section or two of the 7 Comstock calibration procedures, and as I recall,
- 8 without the number before me, it was, in fact, the 9 provision that said, "When you find an i
10 out-of-calibration condition or an expired calibration 11 condition, you initiate an ICR"?
12 A Yes, sir.
O 13 Q And you were familiar with that provision of the 1
14 procedure, were you not?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q You used it on a regular basis?
l 17 A Yes, sir.
l 18 Q Did Mr. Seltmann bring that procedure to your attention 19 at this initial meeting?
i 20 A No, sir, he did not.
21 Q Did Mr. Seltmann examine you or inquire of you as to 22 your understanding of that provision of the Comstock 23 calibration procedure?
! 24 A !!o , si r . *I i
25 Do you recall Seltmann saying words to the effect,
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1 " John," or, "Mr. Seeders, have you been initiating ICR's 2 pursuant to the calibration procedure for 3 out-of-calibration or expired calibration conditions?"
4 A No, sir. ,
5 Q What, then, at that time did you understand your 6 responsibility to be pursuant to Mr. Seltmann's 7 direction?
8 A He said there were some deficiencies found in the audit, 9 and he would like a partial review to see if there 10 were -- there were any more that -- that we could find.
11 (Indicating . )
12 0 All right.
13 Now, where were you when seltmann gave you this 14 instruction; can you recall?
15 A I don't recall.
16 Q All right.
17 Did Mr. Seltmann discuss with you how you were to 18 conduct such a review?
19 A No, he did not.
20 Q Did Seltmann go with you to your records and lead you 21 through an example of the kind of review he expected you 22 to perform?
23 A No, sir.
24 Q Did he make any reference to the specific forms or 25 records systems that you should access in performing
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1 such a review?
2 A No, sir.
3 Q I mean, for instance, did he say, "Well, John, I want 4 you to review all the Form 23 and 23A's for each tool"?
5 A No, sir.
6 Q Did he tell you that should go through the Form 77's and 7 match them up with the ICR log, for example?
8 A No, sir.
9 Q Did he say anything at all that you recall about the 10 nature of the review you were to perform?
I 11 A No, sir, he did not.
12 Q Did I understand from your testimony previously that the 13 message that you interpreted was, "Give me something so 14 I can answer CECO"?
15 A That was my understanding.
16 Q And the something was not ever specified?
17 A That is correct.
18 Q Did you at that time then undertake to perform such a 19 review?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q And, again, at the time you-were also the full-time 22 single Calibrations Inspector, and you did those duties 23 as well, did you not? i 24 A Yes, sir.
25 Did you get anybody to help you do those duties while
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I you were undertaking this review?
1
- 2 A No, sir.
d 3 Q All right. !
l 4 What was the next contact you had with your i ~
i 5 supervision on the subject of this response to the CECO 6 audit?
, 7 A The next response -- are you referring to the hundred 8 percent -- .
9 Q Well, you tell me.
10 Now, Seltmann gives you the instruction, you have 11 just described, some time between the end of May and the
! 12 end of July -- or mid-July, rather, and you went off to 1 O v 13 do what you understood you were to do.
l l 14 What was the next you heard from Seltmann, DeWald, j 15 Saklak, anybody in management regarding your work on i 16 this audit issue?
17 A Mr. Seltmann continuously approached me on how I was l 18 doing with the audit and that he had a -- a deadline to l 5
l 19 meet for his response to CECO, and that he had to have l
\
20 something to offer to CECO for the audit.
f l 21 Q Did Mr. Seltmann show you any communications that he had 1
! 22 had with Edison on the subject of the audit response?
23 A No, sir. 1 24 0 You said already he didn't show you the memos that he l
i
(} 25 wrote requesting extensions of time, for example?
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1 A No, sir, I did not see those.
! 2 Q Okay.
3 And what was your response to Mr. Seltmann when he l 4 would make inquiries about your progress? What did you 5 tell him?
l 6 A I told him that we were -- I was doing the best job that
! 7 I could, and I would try to complete my review as soon I
8 as possible.
l 9 Q All right.
10 At that time, did Mr. Seltmann discuss with you I
- 11 your understanding of the implementation of the relevant i ~
l 12 paragraph of the Comstock calibration procedure, that v 13 specifying the initiation of an ICR when an
! 14 out-of-calibration conditi,a was identified?
l 1
15 A No, sir.
16 Q At that time did Mr..Seltmann discuss with you which i- 17 particular record systems or types of quality documents
! 18 you should revier in responding to the audit findings?
19 A No, sir. T 20 Q At that time did Mr. Seltmann go with you to the
- 21 calibration records and say, " John, here's what I want 22 you to do. Here's an example of the work, the review,
! 23 you should conduct"?
l 24 A No, sir.
25 Q Did he provide you any further specificity as to the
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1 review you were to perform?
2 A No, sir.
3 Q What was the next contact then?
! 4 You've said you had the first one when you got the 5 instructions, Seltmann contacted you repeatedly about 4
6 your progress.
7 What contact next did you have with management on 8 the subject of your review?
9 A I believe that Mr. Saklak came to me and told me that j 10 they had to have something for the deadline, and at that i
j 11 time we went -- we went back to the-trailer to Mr.
I j 12 Seltmann's office, and I had part of the review that --
i i 13 that I had completed, and when we got back to the 14 trailer, Mr. Seltmann said, "I have to have something to l
15 submit to CECO. How far did you get on your review?"
l 16 I handed him the -- the paper work that I had 17 completed at that time, and he threw it in my face, and l 18 he said -- I -- I can't remember his -- what his exact
- 19 words were. Something about, "This won't be good i
20 enough," or I can't remember exactly what he said.
21 Q All right. .
22 Now, the document you are speaking of is
- 23 Applicant's Exhibit 26 in evidence, is it not?
24 It's the multi-page document that begins, "L. K. C.
Q 25 Calibrated Tool Surveillance. Outline of Surveillance
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l 1 Procedures"?
i 2 A Yes, sir.
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3 Q It includes your work and the work of Mr. Snyder?-
l 4 A Yes, sir.
i
- 5 Q Now, it bears a date in two places. At the end of 6 several pages, it is signed, " John Seeders, Level II, 7 7/28/84," and on the cover page at the top the date is 8 7/28/84.,
l 9 (Indicating.)
10 Was July 28, '84, the day on which you handed this j 11 document to Mr. Seeders -- Mr. Seltmann?
I 12 Excuse me.
T 13 A I can't recall the date.
14 Q Is this the document that he threw back at you then?
15 A Yes, sir, I believe so. l
.i . ,
j 16 Q When you say " threw it back at you," are you being
)
! 17 figurative about that or did he literally throw it at j 18 you?
19 A He literally threw it at me.
20 0 What were the circumstances?
21 Were you sitting at a desk, was he sitting at a 22 desk?
j 23 A I was standing beside Mr. Saklak. .
i l l 24 Q And where was Mr. Seltmann at the time?
25 A Sitting at a desk.
! l Manntaa Danortina Servlce. Ltd.
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1 Q At his desk?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q All right.
\
4 You gave Mr. Seltmann the document; correct?
5 A I actually gave it to Mr. Saklak. Mr. Saklak handed it 6 to Mr. Seltmann --
7 (Indicating. )
8 Q All right.
9 A -- and Mr. Seltmann threw it at me.
10 Q Did Seltmann review the document?
11 A No, sir.
12 Q Did he read it -- read the cover page?
13 A He -- he looked at the cover page and then he threw it 14 back at me. I 15 Q All right.
16 And you are standing there, and he literally throws
! 17 it across open space?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 0 It falls on the floor?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q What did you do then?
22 A I just stood there.
23 Q All right.
24 You can't recall the specific words that Mr.
25 Seltmann used, but I gather you understood that he was
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1 dissatisfied; is that true?
2 A Yes, sir, s
3 Q At that point then did Mr. Seltmann say, "Now, John, 4 what you've got to do is you've got to review the Form 5 X's and the Form Y's and do a 10-percent sabple of the 6 Form Z"?
7 Did he give you any specificity at that point as to 8 the nature of the review that he thought -- that he 9 wanted you to do?
10 A No, sir, he did not. ,
' l 11 0 Did he take you to the calibration records and lead you 12 through an example of the review that he wanted you to 13 do at that point?
14 A No, sir.
15 Q Did he tell you then what specifically the point was you ,
i 16 were to address? What was the request by Ceco; did he 17 tell you that at the time?
18 A No, sir, he did not.
- 5 19 0 What instruction did you leave with on that occasion?
20 A They asked me to leave the trailer at that time and they 21 would get back to me.
22 0 And did you leave this document, Applicant's 26, your 23 partial review, on the floor behind you?
24 A Yes, sir, yes, sir.
25 Do you know what happened to it after that?
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1 A No, sir, I do not.
2 O All right, sir.
3 Up to that point, was it your understanding that !
4 you were to perform some sort of a sample review of your 5 calibration records?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q Okay. '
8 For some purpose, which you understood only as 9 responding to CECO's demand for an audit response?
j 10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q Okay.
12 What happened next, then? What was your next O 13 contact with management with regard to this audit 14 response?
15 A My next contact with Mr. Seltmann was the next -- I 16 can't remember whether it was the next day or a couple 17 days later. He asked -- he informed me that they would 18 need a 100-percent review of all my calibration records, i
19 Q All right.
20 Now, recall for us the circumstances where Seltmann i 21 said that to you.
22 Where were you and what, in substance , did he say?
, 23 A I believe I was upstairs at my desk, and he said that 24 they -- they would need a 100-percent review of the 25 calibration records.
i
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1 Q Okay.
2 Did Seltmann approach you at your desk?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q All right.
5 And he said, in substance, what you have just 6 related.
7 And what was your response to Mr. Seltmann?
8 A I told him that that -- that would be impossible under 9 my current workload.
10 0 Was it your understanding that he was telling you that I 11 you were to look at 100 percent -- every piece of paper 12 in your calibration record program?
O 13 A Yes, sir.
14 0 of course, these pieces of paper were -- well, there 15 were many thousands, were there'not?
l 16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q Do you have an estimate of how many individual 18 calibration documents there were that were within the i
19 scope of the entire calibration program up until that 20 date?
21 A Many thousands. j 22 Q Going back years even before your time as Calibrations ;
23 Inspector?
24 A Yes, sir.
(]) 25 Q Did Mr. Seltmann understand that?
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O 1 I mean, did he understand the fact that there were 2 many thousands of documents that were within the scope 3 of 100-percent review of all calibration records, in 4 your opinion?
5 A In my opinion, I -- my first thoughts were, I -- I 6 couldn't believe that he even asked for it.
7 Q Okay.
8 A I couldn't imagine that he could -- he could have a full 9 understanding of what he was asking.
10 Q All right.
11 You said it was impossible or words to that effect?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q Did you mean impossible within your understanding of the 14 "do it as soon as possible" sort of deadline that he 15 would be giving you?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 0 I gather even at that date, he didn't give you a precise 18 day when he wanted your work done?
19 A No, he did not.
20 Q But impossible to do in any reasonable amount of time?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q All right.
23 What happened then?
24 Did you say anything further to him?
25 A I tried to explain to him, as -- as best I could, that I s
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 would require a lot of help and it would require a lot 2 of time to do such an audit, and he -- he wouldn't hear 3 it. He wouldn't -- he wouldn't listen. He said, "This 4 is what we have to have."
5 (Indica ting . )
6 Q Did Mr. Seltmann relate that he had had any 7 communication with Mr. DeWald on the subject?
8 A No, sir.
9 Q He didn't say, in substance, that this is DeWald's 10 instruction that you do a 100-percent review of your 11 documents?
12 A Well, yes -- yes, he did, he did.
13 0 I'm not trying to give you an answer, so, please, 14 reflect here now.
15 . A No, no, no. He did state that Mr. DeWald would be 16 required -- after I -- I tried to explain to him that it 17 would be -- it would be impossible for me to do that 18 review by myself, he -- he said, "Mr. DeWald is 19 requiring you to do this audit, and we need the 20 100-percent audit, so you have to do it."
21 Q Okay.
22 You understood, in substance, in any event, that it 23 it was an official instruction from your supervision to 24 do this?
() 25 A Yes, sir.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
i 7683 1 Q And you said, in substance, that you needed help to do 2 that?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q Okay.
5 An'd was any offer made of trying to get you 6 assistance in performing this review?
7 A No, sir.
8 Q Did Mr. Seltmann have you understand that he had had any 9 contact with CECO since he had spoken to you last about 10 this assignment?
11 A No, sir.
12 Q He didn't tell you that he had requested extensions of 13 time or that sort of -thing?
14 A No, sir, he did not.
15 0 What happened th2n?
16 You got this assignment for what you' considered the l 17 impossible task of 100-percent review. No offer of 18 help, although you requested it.
19 What did you do?
20 A I -- I felt that my primary job with the company was 21 Calibrations Inspector, and I made sure that my -- my 22 work got done first, and I tried to work on the reviews 23 as much as I could.
24 Q Okay.
25 But you didn't want to get behind in your
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1 calibrations; is that what you are saying? )
Yes, sir. l 2 A l l
3 Q Those are, as we've established, in-process type l 4 inspections? If you don't do it when it needs to be 5 done, you might fail to initiate an ICR when one was 6 called for or note that a tool was out of calibration 7 when it came back out of calibration or fail to 8 calibrate a tool when it was called for?
9 A Yes, sir, that's correct.
10 Q All of those things have to be done when called for by 11 the procedure?
12 A It has to be done at the time they are due or -- once it G
k/ 13 gets out of hand, you are dead in the water --
14 (Indicating.)
15 Q Okay.
16 A -- you know.
17 0 What happened next, then, with respect to the 18 calibrations records review?
19 Seltma.nn says, "Go back and do 100 percent." You 20 don't get any help. You go back and do your daily work 21 and try to work on this review some more.
22 What happens then?
23 A He kept coming to me and asking me --
24 Q He, Seltmann?
25 A Yes, sir.
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1 -- and I explained to him that I was doing the best 2 job I could, and I tried to get it done as soon as I 3 could for him.
4 0 Okay, all right.
5 This is now after the 28th of July, if that's the 6 date on which Mr. Seltmann threw the document back at 7 you.
8 The document is dated -- well, it was at least that 9 day, that day or after. Your -- your review -- the 10 partial review, Applicant's 26, is datc0 the 28th of 11 July, 12 So your. encounter with Mr. Seltmann, at which you 13 presented this document, he throws it back at you, took 14 place after that day; correct?
15 A Yes, sir. .
16 Q You can't recall the specific date.
i !
.; 17 Seltmann had several further contacts with you l
l 18 about this 100-percent review you were to perform some 19 time after the 28th of July. l 20 Well, that would take us into August, would it not?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q And in August, ultimately on the 17th, you wrote the 23 letter that's been discussed. It's marked and received I 24 as Intervenors' Exhibit 23. l 1
25
(]) Let's see if we can pin down a couple of dates in Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262 i 1
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1 the intervening two weeks.
2 August 8th, you state in your letter, Larry l
, 3 Phillips left on funeral leave.
4 And is that accurate, to the best of your recall? !
g 5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q Mr. Phillips went on funeral leave, and that funeral 7 leave, as you recalled earlier, extended into a 8 vacation.
9 So his total time away from the job may have 10 been -- it was at least one week, it.may have been as 11 long as three weeks; is that your testimony?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q And during whatever that intervening period was, you, in 14 addition to doing the full-time calibrations work, took 15 on the receiving work that Mr. Phillips was' solely 16 responsible for when he was -- if he had been present?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q Now, your letter states the fact, first, that Phillips 19 left August 8th on funeral leave. It continues, and I 20 quote, "At that time, being the only person certified in 21 calibrations and receiving, I was confronted by Mr. R.
22 M. Saklak and told that I would complete and do the work 23 in both areas no matter how I did it," and then there's 24 the comment about having people do your leg work; and j 25 you answered Mr.-Miller's questions along this line.
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1 I think you basically stated that Mr. Saklak came 2 to you shortly after Mr. Phillips' departure and made 3 these statements?
4 A Yes, sir. .
5 0 All'right. ,
6 So it would have been just after the -- shortly 7 after the 8th of August that that happened; correct?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q All right.
10 And was Saklak -- from that conversation, was he 11 aware of your document review, of this audit-response;
~
12 do you know?
13 A I couldn't say specifically.
j 14 I'm sure that he was.
15 Q Well, let me ask the question a little differently.
16 In discussing the various work assignments that you 17 were to perform -- calibrations, receiving, training the 18 new inspectors -- did Saklak make reference at all to 19 the audit response work that you were to be doing, the 20 100-percent review of all your records?
21 A No, sir.
22 0 Why, then, do you conclude that he must have -- he, l
23 Saklak, must have been aware of that review?
24 MR. MILLER: Your Honor, I'm going to object.
25 I think that the witness is, first of all, being
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1 led on a lot of these conversations by,Mr. Guild.
2 I believe that he testificd, in response to two 3 questions back, that he didn't recall it; that he -- but 4 he assumes that Mr. Saklak must have been aware.
5 It's clearly speculation; and Mr. Guild is just 6 trying to build on that speculation at this point.
7 The witness has testified directly that Mr. Saklak 8 did not say anything to him about the audit task that he 9 had.
10 MR. GUILD: That's clear; and I'm not trying 11 to lead the witness on that point.
12 I want to establish whether there is any basis, and 13 that was the basis for my pending question, is there a 14 basis.
15 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I don't see anything 16 objectionable with this question.
17 Maybe there was some objection to the one two 18 questions ago, and now that the witness has answered 19 that, I think he really ought to indicate if there's any 1
20 foundation.
f 21 Maybe there wasn't any foundation for his answer.
22 MR. GUILD: Let's establish one way or the 23 another, Mr. Chairman, I suggest.
24 BY MR. GUILD:
() 25 0 What basis, if any, do you have for concluding that Mr.
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1 Saklak must have known about your record review?
2 A He was -- he was the supervisor in charge at that time, 3 and since he came to get me for the -- for the partial l 4 review to submit to Mr. Seltmann, he should have known 5 about it.
6 Q All right. f 7 It was within the normal scope of his duties as a '
8 supervisor; is that your conclusion?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q All right. .
l 11 And did you respond, when he -- when he made these !
d 12 statements to you about getting all these jobs done and I 13 supplying leg work for you to do these jobs, with a 14 statement to the effect that you were also assigned this
~
15 record review? Did you say anything about' record 3
16 review?
17 MR. MILLER: Your Honor, again, I don't 18 understand why the leading nature of these questions.
19 Now, these are -- this is not a witness that is 20 hostile to Intervenors.
]
21 He's being asked about conversations that I've 22 already gone over once; and I think it's just 23 inappropriate to lead the witness as Mr. Guild is doing.
24 JUDGE GROSSMAN:- I'm not sure this is a
() 25 leading question.
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1 He didn't say did he or didn't he not of the --
2 well, he asked him whether he had.
3 MR. MILLER: Your Honor, I think he suggested 4 what the content of his response to Mr. Saklak was in 5 the -- in the way the question was phrased.
6 MR. GUILD: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'll 7 certainly try to be responsive to Mr. Miller's 8 objection.
9 My real desire is to move it along and not suggest 10 answers.
11 He has testified in a rather lengthy examination 12 that did not have the same form that mine is having.
O 13 I'm simply, really, try to tie back answers he's 14 already given; and, indeed, his memory is appropriately 15 refreshed.
16 I don't mean to supply answers for him, though; and 17 if the Chairman observes that I am, I apologize for 18 doing so.
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN: No, it doesn't seem to me as 20 though you are; and I appreciate that you are trying to 21 move it along.
22 I believe that is the reason for any of the leading 23 thet's going on, but I don't think it's really 24 technically leading because I don't think that the 25 answers are being suggested.
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i Sonntag Reporting Service. Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
7691 1 I think the witness is being led into whether 2 something happened or didn't, but I don't think he's 3 being prompted on saying that it did happen or it didn't 4 happen, so continue along.
5 I just don't get the feeling that we're doing 6 anything but saving a lot of time by just going into the 7 particular areas.
8 Continue, Mr. Guild.
9 MR. GUILD: All right, sir.
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I think there is a pending 11 question.
12 MR. GUILD: Could I ask the Reporter, please, 13 to find it.
14 (The question was thereupon read by the 15 Reporter.)
16 A No, sir, I don't -- I don't believe the review was ever 17 brought up.
18 BY MR. GUILD:
19 0 Okay.
20 Either by you or Mr. Saklak?
21 A Correct.
22 Q Okay, all right.
23 Now, the statement in your August 17th letter, 24 Intervenors' Exhibit 23, is, on this point, "I was told
() 25 that he would have people do my leg work and make out Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
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U 1 checklists and that I was to sign the paper work. I 2 feel that this was a violation of NRC regulations. I
'3 refused to falsify documentation."
{
4 All right. Now, what specifically was Mr. Saklak 5 referring to, as you understood it, when he said, "I'll 6 have people do your leg work," in substance?
7 A My understanding of Mr. Saklak's statement was that he 8 would have other people, who were not certified in the 9 area, go out and actually do the inspections, and I 10 would initially fill out the paper work, and sign it 11 off, because I was certified in those -- in that area --
12 or those two areas.
O 13 Q And these were inspections in the receiving and in the 14 calibrations area; correct?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q All right.
17 Did you make a point, in substance, as you indicate 18 in the letter here, that your belief was that would be 19 improper?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q Did you tell him you thought it was a violation of NRC 22 regulations?
23 A I can't recall stating it -- it in exactly that manner, 24 but I told him that I felt that that was a violation of
() 25 the company rules and the NRC rules, and that I -- that Ronntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 I would -- I refused to do it. ,
2 Q All right.
3 You told him you thought it was improper --
4 A Yes, sir 5 0 -- in substance?
6 All right. Did, at that point, Mr. Saklak say to 7 you, "Well, John, let's look at your calibration 8 procedures and see if we can figure out a way that it's 9 okay consistent with those procedures of helping you to 10 do your work" --
11 A No, sir.
- 12 0 -- or words to that effect?
13 A No, sir.
14 Q Did he ask you if there was a way, within the scope of 15 the calibration record program, that he could have 16 others assisting you in doing your work?
17 A No, sir.
l 18 Q Did you discuss with Mr. Saklak at all the specific 19 inspection work that you were performing at the time, 20 calibrations and the receipt inspections?
21 A I understood that he wanted me to violate NRC 22 regulations and get by until my supervisor returned.
l 23 Q All right. And you objected.
24 And what did Saklak say in response to your 25 objection, in substance?
(~}
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1 A He made a statement that sometimes in the business, you 2 have to play chess to get by.
3 (Indica ting . )
4 0 Okay.
5 Your letter -- and you don't have your letter 6 before, do you?
7 A No, sir, I don't.
8 Q And I'm' reading from your letter of August 17th. A 9 quote on this point says, quote, "Sometimes you have to 10 play a little chess in the business to keep your job" --
11 A Yes, sir.
12 0 -- end quotes.
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q In substance, that's what he said to you?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q And did you understand that comment to, again, be a 17 direction that you should allow other Inspectors to do 18 your leg work and you would sign off as if you had 19 performed the inspections that had, in fact, been 20 performed by others?
21 A Yes, sir.
i 22 O He was, again, telling you to do that? l l
23 A Yes, sir; or I'd lose my job.
24 Q At the same time you were training some other Inspectors 25
(]) in the calibration and receiving area; is that right?
Ronntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
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1 A Yes, sir.
2 0 Was it receiving as well as calibration that you were 3 training?
4 A I was training in calibration at that time.
5 0 In calibration. Excuse me. All right.
6 And you understood Saklak to tell you to continue 7 and complete the training that you had going on at the 8 time?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q And it was at that time that he made the statement that 11 you have identified to Mr. Miller and in this letter 12 with regard to not being allowed to do your own training 13 in concrete expansion anchors?
14 A He told me that I'd -- that I'd never be trained in 15 anything else unless I did -- I'did as the company 16 wished me to do.
17 Q All right.
18 Was that in the same conversation you have just 19 been talking about?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q All right, sir.
22 So that occurred on or shortly after the 8th of 23 August.
24 I'm sorry. Let me see if we can --
25 MR. MILLER: Well, excuse me.
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1 I believe the letter indicates that there are at 2 least two conversations; and Mr. Seeders last testified 3 on my examination --
4 MR. GUILD: Indeed, you are right. It's my 5 error.
6 BY MR. GUILD:
7 Q Saklak approached you once shortly after Larry Phillips 8 left, on or about -- on or after the 8th of August; 9 correct?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q All right.
12 And according to your letter and your response to ,
13 Mr. Miller, he contacted you again on the date which you 14 list here, Monday, the 13th of August, and had a second 15 conversation with you.
16 Do you recall there being two distinct 17 conversations?
l 18 A I can't -- I can't recall the second conversation right 1 l
19 now.
20 0 All right.
21 Well, let me show you the letter, and take -- take 22 a moment and look at it.
23 (Indica ting . )
24 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Why don't we take a 25 '
10-minute break here.
(])
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, 1 MR. GUILD: Fine.
2 (WHEREUPON, a recess-was had, after which 3 the hearing was resumed as follows:)
4 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. We're back in 5 session.
6 Mr. Guild, continue, please.
7 MR. GUILD: Thank you Mr. Chairman.
8 BY MR. GUILD:
9 Q Mr. Seeders, we were inquiring about the two meetings or 10 the one meeting or the meeting -- meetings, plural, in 11 August of 1984, on or after the 8th; and you state in 12 your letter of August 17th that Saklak approached you O 13 shortly after Larry Phillips left for funeral leave on 14 the 8th, and then you use a date of Monday, August 13th, 15 and relate a conversation with Mr. Saklak.
16 Now, can you recall if there were, indeed, two
, 17 meetings with Mr. Saklak?
i 18 A I can't recall the specific date in question.
l 19 0 Okay.
! 20 A At this time, the company was having a lot of problems 21 with -- with training.
22 We were approached on,a -- on a daily basis about 23 the backlog, about the need for the new employees to be 4
24 trained so -- so they could -- they could help cut down l () 25 this backlog.
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1 (Indicating.)
2 I do -- I do remember the incident, I do remember 3 the conversation, but I can't -- I can't recall that 4 specific date.
5 0 Okay.
6 A I'm sure there were several -- there were several times 7 when -- when we wice approached about the critical 8 problem of - vr training the new employees.
9 Q All right.
10 There are two, and perhaps more than two -- but two 11 remarks attributed to Mr. Saklak that you put quotes 12 around in there that are of interest.
3 13 One is the question about you not getting your CEA 14 training if you didn't train the other guys, and the 15 second is the business about others doing leg work for 16 you, which you objected to, and then the remark you 17 quote from Saklak about playing a little chess.
18 Now, the chess remark and the remark by Saklak 19 about never doing CEA training, did those occur at the 20 same meeting; do you recall?
21 A I can't recall at this time --
22 Q All right, sir.
23 A -- whether they were.
24 I remember -- I remember the incidents. I can't --
25
(]) I can't -- I can't recall which times they took place.
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1 Q All right.
2 And those incidents, the statements made by Mr.
3 Saklak, occurred in the time frame between Phillips 4 leaving for funeral leave and the August 13th date that 5 you quote in there?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q All right. All right, sir 8 When Saklak made these statements to you, you 9 recounted, moments ago, what your response was in 10 general.
11 What else happened, if anything, between you and 12 Mr. Saklak on these questions; the question of training
() 13 these other people and performing these other work --
14 these other duties?
15
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A Well, naturally, all the -- all the veteran Inspectors 16 were -- were expected to train all the new employees, 17 and that at that time, that was -- that was the 18 only -- that was the only concern. .
1 19 Several of the veteran Inspectors -- l 20 MR. MILLER: Your Honor, I'm going to object.
21 The question was whether this witness had any 22 further conversations with Mr. Saklak about training, 23 and the witness is testifying, with respect to veteran 24 Inspectors, what they did, and I don't believe the 25
(]) witness is being responsive to the question.
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%-) j 1 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Were you going to complete 2 the answer by referring to Mr. Saklak or was this not an 3 answer to that question?
4 THE WITNESS: I -- I -- my answer was that, 5 yes, I spoke to Mr. Saklak on this -- on this question, 6 and his -- his response was that we would never be 7 trained until we got -- got our other work done and got 8 the other Inspectors trained.
9 BY MR. GUILD:
10 0 These incidents occured with Mr. Saklak.
1 11 And do you recall, then, having an encounter with 12 him the next Monday, the 17th of August?
13 You testified about it.
14 A The morning of the 17th?
15 Q Yes.
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q All right.
18 Now, at that time your testimony reflected, as I 19 understood it, early in the morning you were preparing 20 the previous day's status report, as was customary?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q All right.
23 You had to prepare the status reports because you 24 were performing Mr. Phillips' Lead responsibilities?
25 As a Lead, you had to supply a status of the
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Ronntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
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1 previous day's work --
2 A That's correct.
3 0 -- to Mr. Saklak, who was the supervisor?
(
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q Okay.
6 You had this work in preparation, and you heard 7 Saklak yell at you from the other end of the office?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q All right.
10 Now, you've recounted that conversation.
11 And Saklak says, you know, "You don't have time to 12 be standing around doing whatever, talking"; is that 13 what you understood him to say?
l 14 A Something to that effect, yes, sir.
15 Q All right.
16 And you said you had your work in your hand?
, 17 A Yes, sir.
18 0 Which you did; correct?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q All right.
21 Back and forth a bit, and then he, Saklak, said, 22 "If you want to play games, I can play games with you,"
23 and dragged you -- took you away -- said, "Come with 24 me" --
25 A Yes, sir.
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l
(
l Q --
is that right? !
2 A Yes, sir.
3 0 Okay.
4 What did you understand Mr. Saklak was going to 5 write you up for at that time?
6 A At that point I had no idea what his problem was.
7 (Indicating . )
8 Q All right.
9 Did he inform you what he intended to write you up 10 for at that point or subsquently?
11 A He -- he indicated that he thought my attitude was bad.
12 Q All right.
13 Now, when did he do that?
14 A On the way to the office.
15 Q Okay.
16 He took you to DeWald's office?
17 A He took me to -- Mr. DeWald wasn't there that day.
18 Q He was on vacation; right?
19 A He was on vacation.
20 He took me to Mr. Seese's office. ,
1 21 Q Mr. Seese was acting for Mr. DeWald at the time? l l
22 A Yes. )
23 Q And Seese was there?
I 24 A Yes, sir. j
(} 25 0 All right.
1 l
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 l
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1 And what transpired when you got to Seese's office? l 1
2 A' Mr. Saklak told Mr. Seese -- Seese that I had an 3 attitude problem, and that they should write me up. .
l 4 Q Did Saklak say, in substance, that you weren't doing l 5 your work?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q Did Oaklak -- at some point later in that conversation, 8 you suggested to Mr. Seese that he interview a number of 9 people who had observed the interchange between you and 10 Saklak that morning; correct?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q All right.
\- 13 Now, what I'm trying to establish is:
14 What were you asking Seese to interview them for? '
15 What was the fact that was in dispute that you wanted 16 Seese to interview the Inspectors for?
17 A I didn't feel that I had done anything wrong, and I -- I 18 thought that -- that Mr. Seese should talk to some of l l
19 the people that were -- that actually seen the incident 20 and -- !
l 21 Q All right.
22 A -- and realize that I -- I thought, and several of the 23 other Inspectors thought, that Mr. Saklak was way out of 24 line.
(} 25 0 All right.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 i (312) 232-0262 i
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\
l 1 Well, wasn't it Mr. Saklak's contention that when l i
2 he -- when he jumped on you in the office, that you '
3 weren't doing your work at that time; that he observed l 4 you talking, or the word was bullshitting with an ,
5 Inspector?
6 A He -- he implied that I wasn't doing my work, yes, 7 that's correct.
8 Q All right.
9 Did'I understand your previous testimony, then, 10 that you wanted Seese to interview these six other 11 Inspectors, these witnesses, to establish that, in fact, 12 at the time.you were doing your work?
O 13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q And isn't it your understanding that seese did, in fact, 15 interview those people during th~e course of 'the day?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q And .that was what accounted for being put on hold, as 18 you refer to it in your letter? i 19 A That's correct.
20 Q Until ultimately you were called in later in the 21 afternoon and given the warning?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q All right.
l 24 You, in fact, have testified that, at the time l
() 25 Saklak first encountered you that morning, you had work
^
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Sonntaa ReDortino Service, Ltd.
l' Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262 )
7705 O
1 in your hand, and you told him of that fact; correct?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q And others who were witnesses, the six that you 4 identified, they were present in a position where they 5 observed that fact, that you had work in your hand?
6 A That's correct.
7 Q All right.
8 Did you understand, at the end of that day, that 9 those individuals you identified had, in fact, been 10 interviewed by Seese --
11 A I --
12 0 -- by Mr. Seese?
\l 13 A I was told that they were.
14 Q All right.
15 And who told you that? )
16 A Mr. Seese.
17 Q Okay.
18 And did you understand, at the end of the day, !
19 that, in fact, those other witnesses confirmed that you, 20 indeed, did have work in your hand and that you had been 2 'l performing your work at the time Saklak accused you of 22 idling? .
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q All right.
25 And isn't it the case, then, that Mr. Seese then
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Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
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1 related this point, which you testified to to Mr.
2 Miller, that it didn't matter what they said, the other i-3 Inspectors, the witnesses?
4 A Later that afternoon, I had a chance to talk with Mr.
5 Seese again,'and I asked him, you know, if -- if he 6 talked to the other Inspectors. He said that he did; 7 and I said, "Well, I'm sure that they" - "they told-you 8 that" - "that I was working on the status report and 9 Mr. Saklak was out of line." He told me, "It does 't 10 rake any difference what the other Inspectors say."
11 Q He, Seese, said this?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q All right, okay.
14 Now, the occasion you are recounting now is the 15 ultimatemeetingwherey$uwere'giventhAwritten 16 warning --
17 A Yes, sir.
18 0 -- correct?
l 19 A Yes, sir. I 20 0 When you say you talked to Seese again, you are 21 referring to the fact that earlier in the day, when 22 Saklak took you to Seese, you asked Mr. Seese to 23 interview the other Inspectors, and then later in the 24 afternoon, when you finally got the warning, you had the 25
(]) second conversation about that morning's incident?
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. I Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
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O V
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q Okay.
3 You come in in the afternoon after you, as you 4 said, had been put on hold a couple of times during the 5 day.
6 And who was present? ,
7 A I'm sorry. I didn't --
8 Q You come in that afternoon. You had been --
9 A Oh, okay, okay.
10 Q This is where you were read the written warning or given 11 the written warning.
12 A Okay.
13 MR. GUILD: Excuse me a second.
14 BY MR. GUILD:
15 Q That afternoon, when you were given the warning, who was 16 present besides yourself?
17 A At firsk, just Mr. Seese, and I asked for a witness at 18 that time. Mr. Seese said that that wasn't necessary, 19 and I -- I objected to his answer, and he sent for Mr.
20 Seltmann.
21 Q All right.
22 You come in.
23 And did Mr. Seese at that time present you with the 24 written warning?
25 A Yes, sir.
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1 Q All right.
2 And, again, I'm looking at an attachment to Mr.
3 DeWald's testimony, Attachment 5. It's a large document 4 that I have here.
5 (Indica ting . )
6 But the first two pages of the document are the 7 employee warning record that was given to you by Mr. '
8 Seese at the time --
9 A Okay.
10 0 -- is that correct? i 11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q All right.
O' 13 Now, the document that was presented to you at the 4
14 time is signed by Mr. Seese and Mr. Saklak; correct?
15 A Yes, sir. ,
16 Q Did it have those signatures on it at the time, Mr.
17 Saklak's as well as Mr. Seese's; do you remember? I 18 A I -- I don't recall.
19 Q All right.
20 The second page has a narrative, and it, again, has 21 Seese and Saklak.
22 And do you recall whether you saw the second page 23 of the document in this form?
24 A Yes, sir, I looked at it.
() 25 0 Okay.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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, 1 And do you recall that it had the Seese and Saklak 2 signatures on that page? l 3 A I -- I -- I don't recall.
1 4 Q All right.
l 5 Do you understand -- did you understand at the time 6 that Mr. Saklak was the author of the document, that he 7 wrote it?
8 A I -- I -- I didn't even think about it.
9 0 Okay.
10 Was Mr. Saklak present --
11 A No, si r. _
12 0 -- during any of the meetings?
13 A No, sir.
14 Q All right.
15 Seltmann came in, and on the second page of the 16 document, there is a signature of Seltmann by the title 17 " Witness."
18 And that reflects the circumstance you just 19 described --
20 A Yes, sir.
21 0 -- Seese called him in?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q Now, this warning doesn't appear to reflect any 24 criticism for the incident trat occurred that morning, 25 at least to the extent of failure to be performing your
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r")N l 1 work. l l
2 Did you understand, from Mr. Seese's comments to 3 you in'this afternoon session, that you were being given 4 a written warning for failure to perform your work the 5 morr.ing of August 17th when Saklak encountered you in 6 the office?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q Did you understand that you were being written up for 9 having a bad attitude?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q And did Seese tell you that?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q Okay.
14 Isn't it the case, Mr. Seeders, that Saklak set out 15 that morning to write you up for'not doing your work in 16 the office at the1 point where he encountered you having 17 the conversation, but that having established, through 18 the witnesses, the six witnesses, who saw you with your l 19 work, that you, in fact, were not guilty of that 20 violation, that, instead, Saklak wrote you up for the )
21 bad attitude violation that is reflected in the warning?
i 22 MR. MILLER: Your Honor --
l 23 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Are you objecting, Mr.
24 Miller?
25 MR. MILLER: I am, your Honor.
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1 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I think it's sustained.
2 You are asking him what was in Mr. Saklak's mind.
3 How can he read Mr. Saklak's mind?
i 4 Did you ask whether he told him he was going to do 5 something or are you asking him what was --
6 MR. GUILD: I, perhaps, asked the question 7 inartfully, Mr. Chairman, and I'll rephrase the 8 question.
9 BY MR. GUILD:
10 Q Did ys. understand that Mr. Saklak essentially withdrew 11 the first warning and then rewrote a warning for bad 12 attitude in the afternoon?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 0 And do you have any basis for that understanding aside 15 from me just posing the question?
16 I don't mean to put words in your mouth.
17 A I'm sure he had no basis for writing me up for not doing 18 my work.
19 Q And that was because there were witnesses who saw you 20 doing your work?
21 A Yes, sir. ,
22 0 I know you just answered the question in the negative, 23 and that was, did you know that Saklak authored this 24 document. All right.
25 Look at the second page of the document, and on the
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V 1 second page of the document, there are a number of sort 2 of historic incidents that are set forth in that 3 document.
4 By " historic," I think they weren't things that 5 occurred on the 17th of August.
6 They are things dating back some days and some 7 weeks, are there not?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q Including back to the training session on the 2nd of 10 August. All right?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q Now, was Mr. Seese present and, therefore, in a position 13 to have any personal knowledge of the events -- all of 14 the events that are cited in your warning, such as the 15 training session on the 2nd of August?
16 A No, sir, he was not present.
17 Q Was Mr. Saklak present on the 2nd of August at your 18 training session? ,
l 19 A No, sir. '
20 Q All right.
21 Do you know what source Mr. Seese relied upon or 22 Mr. Saklak, whoever the author of the document was, Ecr 23 the references to the incidents that are cited to in the 24 document?
25 A No, sir.
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Ronntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
7713 1 Q Did Mr. Seese make any reference to you that afternoon 2 to the evidence, if you will, that he was relying on as 3 the basis for this warning?
4 A No, sir.
5 Q Had you eve,r heacd of Mr. Saklak's Pearl Harbor File?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q What did you understand the Pearl Harbor File to be?
8 A I understood that Mr. Saklak kept a file on all the 9 Inspectors of incidents that he thought he could get rid 10 of them with if he needed to.
11 Q All right.
12 To your knowledge, your understanding, did the a \-} 13 Pearl Harbor File contain information such as the 14 information that is displayed in your warning, of that 15 type?
t 16 A I -- I don't know that.
17 Q All right.
1 18 How did you hear of the Pearl Harbor File?
19 A All the Inspectors knew about it.
20 Q Did you ever hear Mr. Saklak make a reference to it?
21 A I don't recall ever hearing it from him.
22 Q All right.
23 Did you understand that the Pearl Harbor File was 24 maintained by Mr. Saklak to use for purposes such as
(]) 25 documenting employee warnings such as the warning you Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
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1 got?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q All right. ;
i 4 They gave you the warning, they handed you the- !
5 document.
6 Is that what seese did?
7 A Mr. Seese handed me the warning, yes, sir.
l 8 Q All right.
9 Did he, in substance, tell you that you would have
, 10 an opportunity to respond to the charges that were 1 11 contained in this warning before the warning was 1 i
12 actually to be administered to you? l 13 A No, sir.
14 Q Did he invite you to defend yourself?
15 A No, sir.
16 Q He just gave you the warning? ,
17 A He gave me the warning, told me to read it and sign it.
18 Q All right.
19 And what did you respond?
20 A I looked -- I glanced over the -- the -- the two pages, 21 and I gave it back to him, and I said, "I won't sign 22 it."
23 Q All right.
24 What happened then?
25 A He said that was a company policy for all the people to
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1 sign -- sign the -- the warnings when they were given, 2 and I said -- I told him that I didn't believe any of 3 the information was correct on the warning and I -- I 4 wouldn't sign it.
5 0 All right.
6 Did that end the meeting?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q Did you subsquently prepare the August 17th -- the 9 August 17th letter?
10 I believe you said it was that evening?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q All right.
~
13 And it, of course, recounts the events that lead up 14 to this warning and includes a reference to the fact 15 that you were given a warning on that day?
16 A Yas, sir.
17 MR. GUILD: Excure me.
18 If I may have one moment here.
19 BY MR. GUILD:
20 Q All right.
21 Now, this is the August 17th warning letter, and, 22 in part, on Page 2, the warning states, " John failed to 23 complete a total research of the calibration files in 24 response to a CECO surveillance due August 13, 198'."
25 (Indicating.)
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1 Now, were you aware of any such deadline at the 2 time the warning was issued to you on the 17th?
3 A No, sir.
4 0 Were you aware, at the time of the 17th, that Seltmann 5 had, as you've testified, required a 100-percent review 6 of your records?
7 A No, sir.
8 Q Well, had the 100-percent directive --
9 MR. MILLER: Excuse me. I'm sorry.
10 May I have that last question and answer read back, 11 please.
12 (The record was thereupon read by the L
13 Reporter.)
14 BY MR. GUILD:
15 Q What I'm trying to establish is the sequence of events, 16 if you can recall.
17 On the 17th, when the warning was given to you, you 18 -
didn't know about the deadline of the 13th?
19 A That is correct.
20 Q All right.
21 Now, by the 17th of August, you had had the second 22 instruction from Mr. Seltmann to conduct not a partial i 23 review, but a 100-percent review?
24 A Correct.
25 That had occurred -- that second instruction from
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1 Seltmann had occurred at some time, had it not --
2 A Right.
3 Q -- before the 17th?
4 A Right.
5 Q All right.
6 But you still don't recall when that occurred?
7 A I can't recall the date.
t 8 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Mr. Guild, if you are going 9 to repeat questions that have already been answered, you i
j 10 run the risk of doing just what happened.
11 MR. GUILD: Well taken. The point is well f
12 taken, Mr. Chairman.
/ 13 I really am trying to simply find out if that 14 document does refresh his recollection, and it 15 apparently does not; and your observation is 16 appropriate.
17 BY MR. GUILD:
18 0 All right.
19 The warning was given to you under the 20 circumstances you described.
21 Did you continue to perform your duties thereafter 22 as Calibrations Inspector?
> 23 A Yes, sir.
j 24 Q All right.
25 And can you recall whether or not thereafter, after
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f Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 the 17th of August, you continued to do any of the work 2 on review of the calibration records?
3 A I tried to work on it when possible.
4 Q All right.
5 Mr. Snyder submitted a partial review of 6 calibration records, what he described as a 50-percent 7 review, 50 percent of his and Miss Sproull's work in a 8 document that bears a date of the 7th of September.
9 All right. Now, again, I'm just trying to see if 10 putting these dates together -- putting the dstes before 11 you refreshes your recollection about the sequence of 12 events.
13 After the 17th, you continued to do your normal 14 calibration work?
15 . A Yes, sir.
16 0 The document review as you could?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q And on the 7th -- but by the 7th of September, if we ,
1 19 accept that date, Mr. Snyder had already undertaken and 20 performed, in part, some of the review he was assigned 21 to do.
22 All right. Now, were you, indeed, taken off of the ;
l 23 calibration document review some time after the 17th of 24 August, the day you got the warning and wrote your 25 letter, but before the 7th of September, when Snyder
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1 submitted a partial report?
2 A I can't recall.
3 (Indicating . )
4 Q Fine.
5 Now, a period of -- a period of a little more than l
6 a month transpires between the day that you had your
! 7 written warning and on which you wrote your August 17th 8 letter to DeWald, Robert Schulz of the NRC and l 9 Commonwealth Edison Company, and the period in which 10 you -- the point at which you were required to take the 11 transfer the end of September.
12 A Okay.
13 O What generally did you do during that -- during that 14 period of time, Mr. Seeders, August 17th to the end of 15 September?
16 A Tried to do my job.
- 17 Q All right.
i 18 You continued in your calibrations work?
19 A Yes, sir.
2 20 Q Did, at any time during that period, your management 21 ever come to you and tell you that you were deficient in 22 your calibrations work?
23 A No, sir.
24 Q Did you have any contact with Mr. Saklak on the subject 25 of the quality of your calibrations work during that
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Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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7720 1 period of time?
2 A No, sir.
3 O How about Mr. Seltmann?
4 A No, sir.
5 Q Mr. DeWald?
l 6 A No, sir.
7 Q Mr. Phillips? How about Mr. Phillips?
8 A No, sir.
9 Q You were called in by Mr. DeWald on or about the 27th of 10 September.
11 Do you recall that?
12 A I remember -- I remember it being a Friday.
13 Q All right.
14 I don't have my calendar, and I'm relying on memory 15 as well.
16 But towards the end of September --
17 A Yes, sir.
18 0 -- you were called in by Mr. DeWald? l 19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q And what were the circumstances? How did you come to 21 be called in to'see Mr. DeWald?
22 A I can't remember who told me that I was supposed to 23 report to Mr. DeWald's office --
24 Q All right. l l
25 A -- where he -- he informed me that I -- I had a choice
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7721 1 to either be fired or be transferred.
2 (Indicating.)
3 0 Who was present at the time of the meeting?
4 A Just Mr. DeWald.
5 0 All right.
6 And did Mr. DeWald -- well, what did DeWald do and 7 say?
8 A He told me that I had had too many deficiencies, and 9 that the company had decided that they should fire me or 10 transfer me.
11 Q All right.
12 You had been shown a letter that Mr. DeWald i
' 13 prepared; in effect, a termination letter?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q Did DeWald give you that letter'at that time? ,
16 A No, sir.
I 17 Q Did he hold the letter in his hand and sort of display 18 it when he described the alternative to a transfer; that 19 is, a termination?
20 (Indicating.)
1 21 A No, sir.
22 Q Did he invite you to respond to his charges that your 23 calibrations work was deficient? 4 24 A No, sir.
i
() 25 He told me I had no choice, I could either be fired Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
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1 or to take a transfer.
I 2 Q Responding to Mr. Miller's questions, you alluded to j 3 recalling Mr. DeWald mentioning a 40 percent reject rate i 4 at the setting.
i 5 Do you remember that now?
6 A Yes, sir.
i 7 Q And did DeWald tie that 40 percent reject rate to the 8 interim findings by the Edison auditor --
9 A Yes, sir.
i 10 0 -- of the calibration records?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 O Now, I've asked you questions about those findings and 13 their possible relationship to the calibration of torque l 14 wrenches, the circumstances of sending them to West l 15 Virginia, getting them back out'of calibration, not 16 issuing a second ICR because one was already 17 outstanding.
18 Do you remember generally that subject?
19 A Yes, sir.
I l 20 Q Okay.
4 l
21 Now, did DeWald invite you to respond to the charge 22 that there were a 40 percent reject rate in your
- 23 calibration records found by the CECO auditor?
24 A No, sir.
25 Q Did you make any statement about that subject to him?
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1 A I tried to explain.at that time that that condition 2 might exist, and I -- I asked that he give me a chance 3 to check into that situation, as all Inspectors are 4 usually given a chance to -- to explain problems or --
l 5 or deficiencies they have in their -- in their areas, i
~
6 and at that time he called in Mr. Seltmann --
! 7 Q Yes. .
8 A -- and I explained the situation to Mr. Seltmann; and I 9 believe they were both shocked at that time.
10 0 They appeared to be shocked; is that what your testimony 11 is?
12 A They appeared to be shocked at that time that they
^
13 might -- my opinion was they thought they might have 14 overlooked something.
15 (Indica ting . )
16 0 In reaching the conclusion that your work was deficient?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 O All right.
l 19 And do you recall discussing the CECO audit 20 findings? !
21 Was that the subject of discussion when you say 22 they appeared to be shocked, the 40 percent reject 23 findings?
24 A Yes, sir, yes, sir.
I 25 What did Seltmann say, in substance?
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1 A He really didn't say anything.
2 Q He listened to what you had to say?
3 A He listened to what I had to say, and he kind of looked 4 at Mr. DeWald like, you know, "What can I say," and Mr .
5 DeWald kept saying, "You have no choice. You either
, 6 have to take a" -- a transfer or be fired."
7 Q All right.
8 A And at that time I -- I asked that -- if I could have 9 the weekend to -- to think it over, and he said, "No.
10 You have to make a decision right now."
- 11 Q All right.
12 What did you respond to that?
13 A I told him, "Well, since" - "since I have a family and l 14 kids, I have to think of them first, and I guess I'll l 15 have to take the transfer."
1 l 16 Q Did he respond, DeWald? + .
17 A He just said, " Fine."
18 Q Did that end the meeting?
4
! 19 A Yes.
4 20 Q And subsquently, of course, you were, indeed, 21 transferred the following Monday to engineering as a 22 clerk?
23 A He took me right down to see Mr. Klena at that point.
24 0 On the Friday?
25 A On that Friday --
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1 Q All right.
2 A - -- and informed Mr. Klena that I would be starting 3 Monday morning.
4 Q All right.
5 Now, in the conversation with DeWald and Seltmann 6 that Friday, did they relate that they had cleared this 7 decision with Comstock management, Mr. Klena --
8 A No, sir.
9 Q -- and Mr. Rolan, et cetera?
10 A No, sir.
11 Q Did they relate that they had informed Comstock 12 management, Klena and Rolan, et cetera?
13 A No, sir.
14 Q Did they relate to you, DeWald and Seltmann, that they 15 had cleared their decision with Commonwealth Edison 16 C'ompany?.
17 A No, sir.
18 Q Or that they had discussed or related the. matters to 19 Commonwealth Edison Company?
20 A No, sir.
21 Q Did they relate -- they, DeWald or Seltmann, relate that 22 they had cleared this matter with Mr. Robert Schulz of 23 the Nuclear Regulatory Commission?
24 A No, sir.
25 0 Or that they had informed Mr. Schulz of this matter?
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1 A No, sir. l 2 Q All right.
3 Did you, in fact, subsquently -- well, had you, 4 prior to that time, the time of your transfer, discussed 5 this matter with Mr. Schulz of the NRC?
6 By "this matter," I mean, your letter of August 7 17th and the circumstances leading up to this action 8 that was taken against you.
9 A Only that that -- only that they were working on it.
10 0 That was the encounter you had with Mr. Schulz in the 11 field?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q All right.
14 Mr. Schulz had not interviewed you about your 15 August 17th letter at this point, had he?
16 By " interview," did he sit down with you.and go 17 point by point through the letter? l 18 A No, sir, no, sir. l 19 Q Did Mr. Schulz do anything other than make the passing l
20 remark, that you've recounted already, in the field, and l
21 that was, that the NRC was looking into the matters?
22 A Yes, sir -- I mean, that's --
23 Q That's all he did?
24 A That's all he did, yes, sir.
25 0 All right.
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1 You got the transfer, then, over to engineering.
2 You took the option of not being fired and, instead, 3 taking the transfer.
4 The same pay, but on probation, right --
4 5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q -- 90-day probationary period?
7 Then after you took the transfer, you had further 8 ' contact with Mr. Schulz, didn't you?
9 A I believe -- I believe I seen him over at CECO once or 10 twice. ,
11 Q All right.
12 Did you, in substance, tell Mr. Schulz that you I
13 just wanted him to drop the matter in terms of pursuing
! 14 the question of your transfer?
15 A He asked me if I was -- if I was happy with'my new job 16 and everything, and I told him it was going okay, and --
17 and he said -- he asked -- had asked me if I wanted to 18 push it, and I said0 -- I told him that I was afraid 19 that I was going to lose my job and that I didn't want
. I 20 to -- I didn't know any other way I could -- could push j 21 it, anyway, so, you know --
i 22 0 Okay.
! 23 When you use the words " push it," what did you l 24 understand him to be referring to? What's "it"?
4
(} 25 A I didn't really know what he meant.
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1 I --
2 Q All right.
3 A I -- I felt that I wrote -- I wrote the letter about the 4 conditions and the problems, and I couldn't understand 5 why he would be asking me why I wanted to push something 6 that I thought they should take care of.
7 Q All right.
8 "They" meaning the NRC?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 0 Okay.
11 Now, did Mr. Schulz relate to you at the time -- on 12 or after the time that you had been given the warning,
\
13 that if you believed'you had been -- in substance, if 14 you believed you had been discriminated against, 15 retaliated against, that you had a right, under the law, 16 to make a complaint to the NRC and the Department of 17 Labor?
18 A Yes, sir, I understood that.
19 Q Did Schulz say anything to that effect to you?
20 A No, sir.
21 Q Did Mr. Schulz at any time inform you of your rights to 22 file a complaint to the U. S. Department of Labor?
23 A No, sir.
24 Q And the conversation you had with Schulz that you just
() 25 recounted -- and that was where he asked you if you Ronntag Reporting Service. Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
7729 C:) .
1 wanted to push it -- was that the last conversation you
- 2 had with Bob Schulz on the subject?.
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q Now, up to and including that conversation with Mr.
5 Schulz, did Mr. Schulz ever relate to you that he was a 6 participant in the meeting with Commonwealth Edison
~
i 7 Company and L. K. Comstock Company at which your j 8 termination was discussed?
9 A No, sir.
10 Q Did you ever get a copy of Mr. Schulz' inspection report 11 documenting his investigation of your allegations?
12 A No, sir.
g A/ 13 Q Mr. Seeders, counsel for the Applicant showed you two I 14 documents, and these were documents authored apparently
]
15 by Mr. Gieseker, and they've been marked as' Applicant's 16 Exhibits 92 and 93. The first is dated August 22, '84, 17 and the second is dated August 23rd.
18 You were shown the documents, and I believe you i 19 acknowledged at the time that they appeared to reflect 20 two meetings that you had with Mr. Gieseker.
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q Now, a second meeting included a Mr. Tapella, also of 23 Commonwealth Edison Company?
1 24 A Yes, sir.
(} 25 0 And at those meetings, you, among other things, Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
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O('s 1 recounted to those gentlemen your concerns about what 2 you had observed at Comstock, the problems in the QC !
3 program --
4 A Yes, sir.
5 0 -- as identified in your August 17th letter?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 0 In the second of those meetings, you recounted that that 8 meeting included Mr. Gieseker's acknowledgement that 9 Edison was aware of such problems at L. K. Comstock 10 Company?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 0 And that Edison had taken certain steps to try to remedy 13 the quality control program problems that you brought to 14 their attention?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 MR. GUILD: All right.
17 Mr. Chairman, mechanically I am in sort of a 18 quandry here.
19 But Intervenors would offer these documents in i
20 evidence. ;
21 We would be happy to have them remarked as 22 Intervenor documents. l 23 We believe they represent admissions of the 24 company.
25 Mr. Miller did not offer them in evidence, but
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1 Intervenors would do so.
l
, 2 I'm happy to have them -- I don't have any pride of '
3 authorship.
4 I'm happy to have them retain the original marks, 5 which is as Applicant's Exhibit 92 and 93.
6 MR. MILLER: I'd certainly be happy to have 7 them received in evidence.
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Any objections from Staff?
9 MR. BERRY: No objection, your Honor.
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN: They are received, then, as 11 Applicant's Exhibits 92 and 93.>
12 (The documents were thereupon received 13 into evidence as Applicant's Exhibits 14 Nos. 92 and 93.)
15 MR. GUILD: Thank you.
16 Mr. Chairman, if I might ask for a brief recess, 17 I'll try to pull the remainder of this examination 18 together.
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Yes, that's fine.
I 20 Why don't we take 10 minutes.
21 (WHEREUPON, a recess was had, after which 22 the hearing was resumed as follows:)
23 JUDGE GROSSMAN: We're back in session.
24 Mr. Guild, continue, please.
25 MR. GUILD: Mr. Chairman, my examination of
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1 Mr. Seeders is complete at this time.
2 I have no further questions.
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. Mr. Berry or Miss 4 Chan.
5 Mr. Berry.
6 MR. BERRY: Good morning, Mr. Seeders.
7 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
8 CROSS FXAMINATION 9 BY MR. BERRY:
10 0 Mr. Seeders, I want to ask you a few questions just to 11 clarify some points in your previous testimony.
12 A Yes, sir.
'- 13 Q In response to questions by Mr. Miller regarding what's 14 been marked as Applicant's Exhibit 82 -- it was the 15 warning record for -- that you received from Mr. DeWald 16 for not having a doctor's excuse.
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q And I believe your testimony was you didn't receive --
19 you didn't recall receiving a copy of this warning 20 record.
21 Your testimony -- you know, I believe your 22 testimony was that you didn't remember -- remember 1 23 having received a copy of -- having seen this document j 24 before.
() 25 Do you need to see the document?
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1 A Having seen -- I don't understand your question.
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I thought his testimony was 3 that he hadn't signed it.
4 THE WITNESS: Right, right, right.
5 MR. BERhY: Oh, okay. I'm sorry.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, that was the document that 7 I -- I couldn't recall ever signing that document.
8 MR. BERRY: Okay. Well, I just -- I just 9 misunderstood.
10 BY MR. BERRY:
11 Q In general, Mr. Seeders, do you know:
12 Do employees -- do they have the right or the
() 13 opportunity to look into their personal records? Do 14 you know that?
15 A I -- it never come up as far as I know.
16 (Indicating.)
17 Q Now, Mr. Miller also showed you two other documents, 18 Applicant's Exhibits 85 and 86, and these were memoranda l 1
19 from Mr. Seltmann to a person by the name of E. Mazur 4
20 regarding the scope of the calibration record review.
21 And I believe your testimony -- your prior 22 testimony was that you hadn't -- you hadn't seen either 23 of those documents prior to your testimony.
24 (Indicating.)
25 Do you remember that?
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1 A Yes, sir, that's correct.
2 Q Did Mr. Mazur ever contact you on or about the time 3 between July 23rd and shortly after August 14th?
4 A No, sir.
5 0 Now, aside from the possibility that Mr. Seltmann didn't 6 send you a copy of these two documents, is there 7 anything else to explain why you might not have received 8 these?
1 9 A No, sir.
i 10 Q: Now, Mr. Seeders, when you first got this assignment to ,
l 11 do a partial review of the calibration records from Mr.
12 Seltmann, what degree of priority did you get, if any?
13 A My -- my calibration job was my first priority. The --
14 the review was -- was second to my regular job.
15 (Indicating.)
16 0 Was it -- this assignment that you got from Mr. Seltmann 17 to do the partial review in response to an audit, was 18 this the first time you had ever received an assignment 19 of this nature?
20 A Yes, sir, I believe so.
21 Q Now, I believe you testified that Mr. Seltmann, after 22 you completed the partial review and you handed it to 23 Mr. Saklak, who, in turn, turn it in to Mr. Seltmann and 24 subsequently Mr. Seltmann -- there was a meeting and Mr. ;
(} 25 Seltmann threw the report at you.
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1 Why -- well, what did you understand -- strike 2 that.
3 Did Mr. Seltmann appear upset when he threw the 4 report at you?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q Now, you may have answered this before, but I don't 7 think so.
8 Why precisely -- or what precisely did you 9 understand Mr. Seltmann to be upset at?
10 A It -- it appeared that he was upset with the -- the l l
11 amount of work that I turned in.
l 12 (Indicating.)
( 13 Q You say the amount of work.
14 Is it that you -- well, that the partial review 15 was -- wasn't complete or was not 100 percent or a total 16 review, or what do you mean by the amount of work that 17 he was upset about?
18 A My understanding was that he -- he thought that there 19 would be more to the report.
20 (Indicating.)
21 Q Well, prior to -- prior to this incident -- and by that 22 I mean the calibration record review assignment that you 23 had -- had you worked with Mr. Seltmann before?
24 A No, sir.
() 25 0 Going back:
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1 ,At that meeting where Mr. -- when Mr. Seltmann ,
2 threw the report at you, did he indicate to you what 3 more he wanted on the report or what was lacking in the 4 report?
5 A No, sir.
6 Q Now, I believe you also testified that subsequently --
7 you were subsquently relieved of your assignment, of 4
8 this assignment?
9 A That is correct.
10 Q Do you recall who relieved you?
) 11 A I believe Mr. Seese told me that they would be having
)'
12 several other Inspectors complete the review of the 13 calibration records, and that I could continue with my j 14 other duties.
15 Q Do you recall when Mr. Seese indicated that 'taa you?
16 A No, sir, I don't.
17 Q Do you -- do you remember if it was before or after your 18 reprimand?
19 A I can't recall at this time.
20 Q Now, you were asked some questions, also, on -- on a 21 document, Applicant's Exhibit 87, and this was a 22 critique by Mr. Dominique of your lecture, your training 23 lecture.
24 A Yes, sir.
() 25 Q Now, was this lecture -- well, what was the-purpose of Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
7737 i
O 1 this lecture?
2 A This was a training session to some of the new employees 3 over the -- the basics of the calibration procedure.
4 Q Now -- and -- well, is this part of the certification 5 process for calibration?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q How long did the lecture last or the class last?
8 A Oh, I believe approximately all day, sir.
9 0 I think I'm correct that the certification is a 1-hour 10 lecture, then an 8-hour lecture, 40 hours4.62963e-4 days <br />0.0111 hours <br />6.613757e-5 weeks <br />1.522e-5 months <br /> on-the-job 11 training, and that -- is that the process for -- for 12 receipt -- and then practical examinations and written 13 tests.
14 Is that essentially the process for somebody to be 15 certified?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 0 And this was the eight-hour lecture; is that correct?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 0 Was Mr. Saklak in the class?
20 A No, sir, I don't believe so. ,
21 Q Yes.
22 I believe you testified previously that in 23 preparation for this class, that you had prepared an 24 outline?
25 A Yes, sir.
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1 Q Did either -- did anyone review your outline before you 2 conducted the class?
3 A No, sir.
4 Q Now, changing subjects.
5 I direct your attention -- well, you were asked 6 some questions on Applicant Exhibit 89. This is a read 7 and reply memo to Mr. Phillips -- addressed to Mr.
8 Phillips from -- from yourself, and it states that you 9 request to be allowed to work -- allowed to work 10 overtime to keep up with your daily work and -- keep up 11 with your daily work, an'd it states, "That I now feel 12 that I am getting behind, and I request help with the m
13 extra work that has been assigned to me or let me work 14 the overtime."
15 And the question to you is:
16 Do you recall what extra work had been assigned to 17 you at the time?
18 A I believe I was referring to the training and -- the 19 training of other employees and -- and I believe that's 20 what I was referring to.
21 (Indica ting . )
22 Q Mr. Seeders, earlier you testified about the 23 reprimand -- a written warning -- that you received from 24 Mr. Seese on August the 17th.
(} 25 After -- after the meeting was over and you had Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
7739 1 been read the report. -- or strike that -- read the 2 warning, I mean, how did you feel? How did you feel 3 when you -- after -- when you left -- when you left Mr.
4 Seese's office?
5 A I felt that the company just made up the warning to try 6 to get rid of me. ,
7 Q Now, just prior to this -- prior to you receiving the 8 warning and -- and -- had you had any run-ins or 9 confrontations with Mr. Seltmann?
10 A No, sir.
11 Q How about Mr. -- Mr. Saklak?
12 A No, sir.
13 Q How about Mr. DeWald?
14 A No, sir. j i
15 Q Mr. Seeders, in your letter that you wrote to Mr. !
16 DeWald, your August 17th letter, you stated in there 17 that you had been under pressure to -- that -- that 18 Comstock Inspectors had been under pressure to train new 19 Inspectors. l 20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q Would you elaborate on what do you mean by " pressure to 22 train"? How were you pressured?
23 A It was aware to all the Inspectors at that time that 24 there was a tremendous backlog in -- in a lot of areas, 25 and the company had decided to -- to hire a lot more
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1 Inspectors to -- to work and -- and get rid of the l 2 backlog.
3 Therefore, they just -- they just all at once hired 4 a bunch of new Inspectors, and there was a lot of 5 pressure at that time to hurry up and get the new 6 Inspectors trained so they could -- they could complete 7 this backlog.
8 Q Do you feel, Mr. Seeders, that management was acting 4
9 improperly in some way by having -- having the current 10 Inspectors train the new Inspectors? i 11 A It was -- it was the feeling of several of the veteran 1
.; 12 Inspectors that the -- the problem was that the ,
1 Q 13 Inspectors were giving -- given a base salary. Then 14 each certification after that you were given an 15 additional 50 cents per certification.
16 We were told that we had to train the new employees 17 in several of the certifications to get them up to 18 the -- to the specified amount they were hired at.
19 We felt this was very unfair, and we felt that we 20 should be trained right along with the new employees.
l 21 We didn't -- we didn't mind training the new 22 employees.
23 What it -- the problem was, we were expected to 24 train them up to the amount that they were hired at, 25 which meant training them iniseveral different areas.
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1 Q Okay.
2 When you say " training them up to the amount that 3 they were hired at" --
4 A Yes, sir.
5 0 -- could you explain that? What do you mean by that?
6 Can you give us an example, if that would be 7 helpful. -
8 A One good example was a gentleman was hired from Florida.
9 We were told that any new Inspector that was hired in, 10 he would start at the base Level II Inspector's salary, 11 if he had that experience, and then he would be 12 certified in -- in the rest of the areas as time O 13 permitted.
14 The gentleman that was hired from Florida was hired 15 at a salary much higher than a lot of the Inspectors.
16 We were told that we had to -- to train this person 17 and certify him up to the level that he was hired at.
18 In other words, to justify all the 50-cent increases 19 that -- that would have been 'shown for his salary, we 20 had to hurry up and get him certified to show that 21 his -- his salary was justified.
22 (Indicating.)
23 Q So just -- just so I understand, let us say, for 24 examplef a person was hired in at $14 instead of the
() 25 regular $12 an hour.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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7742 1 You are saying that he -- he would have to get 2 four -- four certifications above that?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q How often did that happen, Mr. Seeders; I mean, that 5 individuals were hired above the -- the $12 rate?
6 A The reason I brought this up is we thought it -- it 7 happened quite a bit.
8 The reason we knew this happened is because a memo 9 was found in the Xerox machine that the company -- that 10 the company secretary left in the Xerox machine that was 11 sent to this gentleman in Florida stating his base 12 salary and all his benefits.
13 Q Also in your letter of August 17th, you stated, in the 14 second paragraph of your letter, that you hold - "I 15 -
hold my professional attitude and ability above anyone 16 on management level."
17 Do you recall -- do you recall your letter or would 18 you like to see it?
19 A I can't -- I can't remember that specific.
20 Q I would just like to know what you mean by that; and 21 Miss Chan will show it to you.
22 MS. CHAN: Right here.
23 (Indicating.)
24 A I just meant that I -- I -- I'm proud of my job and I --
( 25 I consider myself a professional and I try to -- I try Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
7743 1 to do my job in a professional manager -- in a 2 professional manner.
3 BY MR. BERRY:
4 Q Now, I notice that you closed your letter by asking Mr.
5 DeWald to notify you of any pending action.
6 And did Mr. DeWald ever notify you?
7 A Not until the time of my transfer.
8 Q And that was in the latter part of September?
9 A The end of September, yes, sir.
10 Q During this time period, did you ever talk to Mr. DeWald 11 and ask him, "What are you doing about my letter," or, 12 "Why haven't you gotten back to me," or anything?
13 A He called me in the office one time. I can't remember 14 the specific date. He called me in, and he asked me if 15 I thought there was some other way that I could word my 16 letter, and I told him that I -- I -- everything that I 17 wrote in my letter was the truth and I wouldn't change 18 it under any circumstances.
19 (Indicating.)
20 0 What did -- is that what you understood Mr. DeWald to be 21 suggesting, that you alter your letter or --
22 A That's what -- that was my understanding, yes, sir.
23 Q Did he say that?
24 A Not in those specific words, no, sir.
25 Did he indicate to you, you know, why -- why he wanted
(]) Q Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 you to change your letter?
2 A He thought he -- he -- he indicated that he thought I --
3 I misunderstood the problems, and I said, "No, sir, I, 4 don't think I do. I" - "everything I put in my letter 5 was to the best of ,my knowledge, fact, and that's" --
6 it's going to stay the way it is."
7 Q Did he explain to you how he thought you misunderstood 8 the problems?
9 A No, sir.
10 Q Did he indicate any particular problem that he thought 11 you misunderstood?
12 A No, sir.
13 Q Okay.
14 Now, I believe you testified that Mr. -- you talked 15 with NRC Inspector Schulz --
16 A Yes, sir.
17 0 -- after you sent the letter?
18 A Yes, sir. ,
\
19 Q And at that time did he indicate -- did he indicate that 20 he had received your letter?
21 A I delivered my letter to him personally.
22 0 Oak.
23 Well, just so the record is clear, the conversation 24 that you testified to earlier that you talked to Mr.
25 Schulz and just in passing, is that a different
(]) 1 Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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_ _ . _ . . _ _ . _ . . , _ .1
7745
)
1 conversation or different incident than the one where 2 you -- where you delivered your letter?
3 Are we talking about two different occasions?
4 A I delivered my letter the first time. Mr. Schulz read 5 it. He said he would be getting back to me,.
6 I seen him out in the field the first time I talked 7 to him after I gave him the letter, and I indicated that 8 I was afraid that I was going to lose my job. He said, 9 "It would be a good idea to talk to Commonwealth 10 Edison," assure them that I was sincere in my letter, 11 and -- and that I was really concerned about a quality 12 job on site, and I did that.
O 13 (Indicating . )
14 0 Was that -- well, was Mr. Schulz' -- well, was Mr.
15 Schulz' advice good advice? I mean, did it work out 16 for you?
17 A I still feel that I lost my job.
18 (Indicating.)
19 Q Mr. Seeders, let me show you a document -- a letter 20 addressed to you dated August 29, 1984, from Mr. Charles 21 H. Weil, Investigation Compliance Specialist in Region 22 III. This purports to acknowledge receipt of your 23 August 17th letter and informs you that -- informs you 24 that your -- that your allegations have been assigned to
() 25 th*e Division of Reactor Projects for resolution.
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0 '
1 (Indicating.)
2 Did you ever receive a copy of this letter?
3 A Yes, sir, I remember this.
4 JUDGE GROSSMAN: A copy of that would be Staff 5 Exhibit 12, if you want to mark it.
6 MR. BERRY: Yes, your Honor.
7 JUDGE COLE: Here.
8 (Indicating.)
9 MR. MILLER: Thank you, Judge Cole.
, 10 (The document was thereupon marked Staff i 11 Exhibit No. 12 for identification as of 12 July 15, 1986.)
13 BY MR. BERRY:
14 Q Now, did Mr. Schulz ever talk to you about the specifics 15 of your letter?
16 A No, sir.
, 17 Q Didn'.t he ever ask you if -- for some -- some items --
18 some allegations or something he could follow up on?
19 A No, sir.
20 Q Now, I believe you testified -- do you recall:
21 Did you -- did you meet with Mr. Schulz shortly 22 before you were transferred?
23 A No, sir, I don't believe so.
24 Q Did -- well, did -- strike that.
25 Did you ever indicate to Mr. -- Mr. Schulz, Mr.
({}
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1 Seeders, that you didn't want the NRC to pursue the 2 matter anymore; you didn't want them to pursue it any 3 further?
4 A Mr. Schulz -- I can't remember the time period. Mr.
5 Schulz asked me if -- how my job was going and if I --
6 if I thought I should pursue it.
7 (Indicating.)
8 Q That was after you were transferred; right?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 And I -- and I indicated to him that -- that I -- I 11 didn't know -- I didn't know of any other way to pursue 12 it.
p/
4
'- 13 (Indicating.)
14 0 Okay.
15 Just so I'm clear:
16 I believe you testified earlier that he asked you 17 that, and you were now in the engineering department, so 18 this was after your transfer you are talking about; am I 19 correct?
20 A I -- I can't recall the -- the time period.
21 Q Prior to your transfer, do you ever recall a meeting at 22 the NRC Resident Inspectors' office where yourself and 23 other QC Inspectors attended?
24 A Yes, sir; I remember that, yes, sir.
25 0 Was Mr. Schulz present at that meeting?
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1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q Do you recall the substance of what was said at that 3 meeting?
4 A I believe there were -- I believe there were five or six 5 other Inspectors in with me.
6 That was -- that was a meeting with Mr. Schulz more 7 or less for them to more or less show the validity of my 8 letter.
9 (Indicating.)
10 Q Okay.
11 Now, how did -- how did you and the other 12 Inspectors come -- come to -- come to this meeting?
13 I mean, were you invited or --
14 A I can't -- I can't recall what -- what prompted us going 15 over there at that time.
16 Q The other Inspectors, do you recall who they were?
17 MR. GUILD: Mr. Chairman, I'm going to 18 interpose an objection.
19 I was going to ask that the record reflect that Mr.
20 Weil's letter to Mr. Seeders seemed inappropriate, 21 having "do not disclose" and " confidential" stamped all 22 over it. Another, perhaps, incidence of overzealous 23 stamping.
24 But this question now raises an issue of whether or 25 not these other six, indeed, had some sort of
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1 confidential status.
2 And I don't object to the question being asked, but 3 if it's being asked in open session, it might disclose 4 confidential information.
5 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, I ask Mr. Berry 6 whether he wants those names disclosed even in an 7 in-camera manner.
8 Do you really wish to have those names mentioned 9 now if there's no purpose for it?
10 MR. BERRY: Okay.
11 JUDGE GROSSMAN: And those people have 12 confidentiality, so you may not want to.
O 13 MR. BERRY: Okay. I'll withdraw the last 14 question.
15 I would note, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Weil -- we 16 anticipate Mr. Weil will appear as a witness in this 17 proceeding, and I guess he could -- he's the record 18 keeper, and I guess he can -- he would be available to 19 answer any questions as to how he maintains his 20 documents.
21 BY MR. BERRY:
22 Q The other individuals, the other QC Inspectors, did they i
23 go to the NRC, Mr. Schulz' office, at your -- at your 24 request?
() 25 A I can't -- I can't recall what -- what prompted us to go Ronntag Reporting Service _. Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
l 7750 1 over there at that time.
2 (Indicating . )
. 3 Q Do you recall whether this meeting occurred after you 4 received a copy of Staff Exhibit 12, that letter from 5 Mr. Well?
6 A No, sir, I don't.
7 Q Do you recall at this meeting whether -- if Mr. Schulz 8 discussed your letter?
9 A No, sir.
10 I believe -- I believe the other Inspectors done 11 most of the -- did most of the talking at that meeting.
1 12 Q In response to an earlier question, you mentioned that 13 the other Inspectors -- well, part of -- part of the 14 reason they were there was because to show that there 15 was validity to what you had,been talking about in your 16 letter.
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q Okay.
19 Did the other -- well, is that what was discussed l
20 at the meeting, the -- the circumstances or the ,
21 incidents described in your letter?
22 A The -- the meeting was -- was more or less a discussion j 23 of -- of how the other Inspectors viewed the problems 24 and the conditions at Comstock at that time.
25 When you say " problems and conditions," are we -- well,
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1 what do you mean by " problems and conditions"?
2 A By " problems," I mean the -- the harassment and 3 intimidation. By " conditions," I mean the morale 4 problem at that time at Comstock was very, very low; and 5 that -- that was the basis of the discussion at that 6 meeting.
7 (Indicating.)
8 (The document was thereupon marked Staff 9 Exhibit No. 13 for identification as of 10 July 15, 1986.)
11 BY MR. BERRY:
12 Q Mr. -- Mr. Seeders, I'm going to show you another 13 document marked Staff Exh1 bit 13.
14 (Indica ting. )
15 It's a January -- a letter' dated January 21, 1985, 16 addressed to you from Mr. Weil, and it forwards a copy 17 of an inspection report authored by Mr. Schulz.
18 And I would ask you:
19 Do you recall receiving a copy of this letter?
20 A This is the cover -- this is the cover letter for the 21 complete copy?
22 Q Yes.
23 MR. BERRY: I would also -- also ask that the 24 Reporter mark at this time for identification Staff 25 Exhibit 14, which is the inspection report itself.
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1 (Tne document was thereupon marked Staf f 2 Exhibit No. 14 for identification as of 3 July 15, 1986.)
4 MR. BERRY: Of course, you are free to review 5 the entire report, but I would represent that Paragraph 6 B on Page 4 of the report is -- is -- is the -- is the 7 part of the report that's relevant to your concerns.
8 THE WITNESS: Part 3, Page --
9 MR. BERRY: Page 4 of the text of the report.
10 MR. GUILD: At the top of the page, Mr.
11 Seeders. .
12 THE WITNESS: Okay, okay, I've got it.
( 13 I don't remember this document at this time. I --
14 BY MR. BERRY:
15 0 Well, so you -- you don't recall whether you received it 16 or not, a copy of this?
17 A No, sir.
18 Q Okay.
l 19 Can we agree, Mr. -- Mr. Seeders, that the portion !
20 of the inspection report which I referred you to appears l 1
21 to address your -- your allegations?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q And in the report, it states, "On September 21st, the 24 Inspector met with the alleger and four other Quality 25 Control Inspectors. The five individuals did not
(~}
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1 provide any specific examples or records substantiating 2 intimidation or harassment."
3 And did -- did -- do you recall being asked by Mr.
4 Schulz if you had any. specific examples or records to 5 substantiate intimidation or harassment?
6 A I -- yes, sir, I believe he asked some of the other 7 Inspectors.
3 8 (Indicating.)
9 Q Do you recall what your response was?
10 A No, sir. We -- we didn't have any.
11 (Indicating.)
12 Q The report slso reflects that during the course of the I Q 13 interview, it was revealed that the main issue was'a
- 14 morale problem, which appeats to be related to monetary 1
2 15 matters and subjective opinions'of poor management.
1 16 Do you recall whether you or the other Inspectors 17 stated that, in substance?
18 A I believe that of the -- that was part of the 19 discussion.
20 Q Okay.
21 Do you recall the other part of the discussion?
22 A Just what I testified to before.
23 (Indicating.)
24 Q Where it says, " Inspector" - "Subsquently Mr. Schulz 25 met with Commonwealth Edison-project management and
] ({}
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) 5 1 construction superintendent to discuss the issue of i
2 harassment and. intimidation," did Mr. Schulz ever convey i
3 to you that he had spoken with CECO management to --
4 about the issue of harassment and intimidation?
5 A No, sir.
6 Q The report also reflects that Edison -- Edison -- CECO 7 management subsquently met with Comstock site quality 8 control management to insure that all parties understood 9 that any form of intimidation or harassment would not be 10 tolerated by Commonwealth Edison and the NRC.
11 Do you recall if Mr. Schulz ever indicated to you 12 or conveyed to you that Commonwealth Edison had 13 discussed the matter with Comstock?
14 A No, sir.
15 Q Now, Mr. Seeders, in -- in your' letter, you' stated 16 that -- and this is regarding the calibration record 17 review -- you state, "I never did nor will I ever l 18 falsify documentation for anyone or for any reason."
19 How -- how were you -- well, what -- what is the 20 document falsification that you are referring to?
21 JUDGE COLE: You better show him the letter.
22 THE WITNESS: Where is it?
23 MR. BERRY: It's in the second paragraph.
24 TPP WITNESS: Okay, okay, I've got it.
() 25 MR. MILLER: Your Honor, I believe this 1
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1 question was asked during my examination.
2 MR. BERRY: You can refresh my memory as to 3 what the answer was, then.
4 JUDGE GROSSMAN: My recollection of the 5 answer was to sign ICR's that someone else did the leg 6 work on.
7 MR. MILLER: No. I think this -- it's in the 8 second paragraph of the letter that he's referring to, 9 and I believe I inquired of the witness on that, and his 10 answer was Mr. Seltmann's request -- he, in essence, 11 inferred it from Mr. Seltmann's request that he complete 12 the review of the calibration records as quickly as 13 possible, as soon as possible.
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I stand corrected on that.
15 Fine.
16 I should have looked at the record.
17 MR. GUILD: There are two references to 1
18 falsification in the text of the letter.
19 Indeed, the first is the one that Mr. Miller is 1
20 referring to.
21 MR. BERRY: Fine.
22 I'll withdraw the question.
23 BY MR. BERRY:
l 24 Q Do you recall if -- ever telling Mr. Schulz, for l
{} 25 example, that that's what -- what you meant by
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1 falsification of the' documents in this respect?
2 A Mr. Schulz never asked me about the letter, i
3 0 Okay.
4 Now, Mr. Schulz did acknowledge to you that he did 5 receive the letter at some point?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q And subsequently you had further discussions? You 8 talked to Mr. Schulz on other occasions?
9 A Yes, sir.
i 10 Q Okay. s I
11 And what's been marked as Staff Exhibit 14 also 12 reflects -- appears to reflect Mr. Schulz' investigation 4
13, inspection into your allegations; is that correct?
14 A He -- he indicated that they were looking into the
! 15 matter.
16 Q I guess what I'm asking -- what I'm trying to get after l
17 is:
10 Mr. Schulz -- he didn't go through the letter point 19 by point?
20 A That's correct.
21 Q Did you speak about your concerns generally; I mean, 22 without reference to the letter, just in general?
23 A No, sir.
24 Q Now, this pressure, the harassment and intimidation, 25 that you allude to in your letter, I believe you state
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1 that you never sacrificed the quality of your work?
2 A That's correct.
3 Q Are you aware of any other Inspectors whose work may --
4 may have been vulnerable to the harassment and 5 intimidation?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q Is there any -- any Inspector or area which the NRC 8 should look into, you know, who -- who may have 9 sacrificed the quality of their work?
10 A Not to my knowledge.
11 Q Are there any Inspectors, in your opinion, who may have 12 been vulnerable to harassment or intimidation or 13 th'reats?
14 A I didn't work with most of the Inspectors at the company 15 at that time, so I -- there would be no way'of knowing.
f 16 Q Thank you.
17 Now, did Mr. Saklak -- I believe your letter 18 referred that he -- that he had indicated he would have 19 someone else do the leg work and you were to sign off.
. 20 Okay. Your signature on -- on the document, 21 whatever it would be, what was your signature to 22 represent?
23 A That that work had been inspected and been completed and 24 that it -- that the quality of that work was -- was 25 good.
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1 Q Well, the persons that were going to do the leg w'ork, 2 would they -- would they sign off -- would their 3 signature appear on the document anywhere?
, 4 A No, sir.
5 It wouldn't mean anything. They weren't certified 6 in that area.
7 Q Were they allowed -- well, did they have Level I 8 Inspectors?
9 A Yes, sir. ,
10 Q The person -- these persons, do you know if they were i
11 Level I Inspectors in that area?
12 A All I know is they were not certified in that area.
13 (Indicating. )
14 Q When you say they were not certified, they were not 15 certified Level II or Level I or at all?
16 A At all.
17 Q Do you know, Mr. Seeders, if -- if you had a Level I 18 Inspector, and he went out and did the work or did the 19 inspection, could a Level II then sign off on the 20 document, just reviewing the Level I's -- reviewing the 21 document or -- and then sign off?
22 A No, sir.
23 Q Maybe I wasn't clear.
24 No, you don't know, or no -- no, he could not do 1
(} 25 that, that could not be done?
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1 A No, he could not do that.,
d 2 MR. BERRY: Okay.
3 I believe that's all I have, your Honor.
4 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Mr. Miller, how long do you 5 have?
6 MR. MILLER: Your Honor, I think that it may 7 go as long as an hour.
l 8 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. Why don't we recess
- 9 until 1
- 15.
, 10 MR. BERRY: Mr. Chairman, I would -- I would i 11 move into evidence Staff Exhibit 12.
12 MR. MILLER: No objection.
13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Just 12?
14 MR. BERRY: I believe the witness -- I would 15 move Staff Exhibit 13, if there's no objection to that.
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Just 12 and 13?
- 17 MR. BERRY: Well, I believe the ruling in the 18 case now is that Staff inspection reports aren't 19 admissible unless we have the author and the sponsor, 20 s o --
21 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Fine.
22 Any objections to 12 and 13?
23 MR. GUILD: No, I have no objection.
24 MR. MILLER: None. ,
l 25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. They are received.
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1 (The documents were thereupon received 2 into evidence as Staff Exhibits Nos. 12 3 and 13 4 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. Now we're recessed j 5 until 1:15.
l 6 (WHEREUPON, the hearing was continued to 7 the hour of 1:15 o' clock P. M.)
8 9
10
- 11 12 13 ,
14 15 16
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18 i 19
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21 22 23 I 24 2
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l JUDGE GROSSMAN: We are back in session. ,
t 2 I believe Mr. Gallo has a preliminary matter before 3 we return to the witness.
- 4 MR. GALLO
- Thank you, Judge Grossman.
5 I would like to return, just briefly, to the matter i
6 of the Intervenors' motion for disclosure of relevant OI 7 files and the controlling document, that is the ,
8 Commission Policy Statement.
9 It would be helpful, at least to this party, if we l 10 could understand where in the procedural change spelled
, 11 out in the policy statement the Board finds itself.
12 Let me be more specific. The initial step is an Q
v 13 in-camera session, which has taken place. I take it the 14 Board has been briefed as to the specifics involved in 15 that matter.
16 Then the policy statement provides for two trails, 17 as I see it. One, if -- and both involve a Board 18 decision as to whether or not, in their judgment, 19 disclosure is necessary for whatever reasons. I won't
- 20 get into the specifics there. !
21 But for the Board the next step after the in-camera i
j 22 session is the Board has to declare itself'as to whether i 23 or not they believe disclosure is appropriate.
- 24 Whether it be -- and then OI must interpose an
(} 25 objection if they believe that the disclosure would Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 impede the investigation.
2 On the other hand, if the objection is simply an 3 identification of a protected person, then that's an 4 automatic referral up to the or certification up to the 5 Commission for consideration, regardless of OI's 6 position.
7 It would be helpful if we knew which one of those 8 paths the Board was pursuing.
9 Maybe my question can't be answered at this time, 10 but that's the gist of my question.
11 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, for one thing, I am 12 not sure that it can be answered at this time, because 13 we haven't formally taken a position; but, also, I am 14 not sure that the policy statement provides for the a 15 Board's releasing its position to the parties.
16 Do you find that? I am not looking at that now. I 17 don't have it in front of me; but my recollection is or 18 my vague understanding is that.whatever course the Board 19 takes, it will be an in-camera decision.
20 MR. GALLO: Well, I don't -- let me say the 21 policy statement does not expressly address the nature ,
i 22 of the Board's order in terms of whether it should be in l 23 camera or not, although I would think that what might be i
24 protected is the specific areas that the Board thought
(} 25 was pertinent.
l 1
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l It seems to me a decision whether to follow the j 2 path of protecting the pending investigation or the 3 other path of protecting the identity of an individual, ,
4 that doesn't sound to me like either subject appears to 5 be worthy of in-camera treatment.
6 It seems to me that that in no way compromises 7 anything in the policy statement. -
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I will have to recheck that 9 policy statement in order to be able to agree with you, 10 Mr. Gallo; and I am not sure that that is the case.
11 MR. GALLO: All right.
12 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I will have to say that in 13 this situation, we have a complicating factor, in that 14 there has been a disclosure and there is a request for 15 subpoena; and, while on tne legal basis for-issu,ing a 16 subpoena, it doesn't seem as though we could withhold J
17 it, I would think that maybe in this particular case, i 18 the Commission ought to pass on that.
! 19 I don't see any grounds stated in the rules for l 20 withholding that subpoena.
21 MR. GALLO: Well, the policy statement --
22 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Nevertheless, there is a 23 problem with confidentiallity here; and I can't -- I 24 don't know that the Board ought to take it on itself to 25 square those two apparently contradictory positions,
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1 problems.
1
! 2 MR. GALLO: Well, the policy statement 3 doesn't appear to contemplate involvement in the process 4 by either an Intervenor or an Applicant. It seems to be 5 simply an internal process within the Agency itself.
! 6 I would agree that this particular circumstance 7 that this Board is confronted with is' unique in that, 8 because of the nature of the pleadings before it.
i 9 Just what the interrelationship is between the 10 request for subpoena and the policy statement is 11 something I really am not equipped to comment on, since
- 12 I am not privy to the specifics; but I would say this, 13 that --
4 14 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I think you are as privy to 15 the specifics as we are, and I don't know that I am 16 prepared to take it on or that the Board is prepared to 17 take it on itself without at least affording some higher 18 level of review the right to review the Board's action.
19 MR. GALLO: Well, I won't quarrel with the 20 Board's judgment on that.
21 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Does someone have an
- 22 objection to that particular statement of the Boar 67 23 MR. GUILD
- If we are talking just about the 24 subpoena,-Judge --
() 25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Pardon?
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1 MR. GUILD: Are we talking about just the 2 subpoena request?
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Yes, just the subpoena 4 request.
5 MR. GUILD: If I might, I would like to 6 consider this a little further. My reading of the 7 policy statement is a bit foggy right now.
8 But I do recall, contrary to what I understood Mr.
9 Gallo to say, that the policy statement did contemplate 10 participation by the parties in briefing to the 11 Commission.
12 Now, what information the parties are expected t'o 13 base their briefs upon, I ' can ' t remembe r .
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN: That's not my recollection.
15 I don't believe --
16 MR. GALLO: It does provide for that element, 17 but not on the issue that we are talking about, on the ,
l 18 question of the subpoena.
19 MR. GUILD: No, no, but or. the issue of what 20 position the Commission should take.
l 21 JUDGE GROSSMAN: No, I don't think that the 1 l
22 policy statement contemplates the parties participating 23 in the presentation to the Commission.
1 24 MR. GALLO: If I can read from it, it says, l
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1 position effectively to respond to Staff or OI's brief 2 because the proceedings have been conducted in camera.
3 However, in those cases when another party feels it is 4 in a position to file a brief, it may so do within seven 5 days after the Staff or OI files its brief with the 6 Commission."
7 This is on the question of disclosure of a person's 8 identity who has requested confidential 11ty.
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. I guess I am wrong on 10 that and I am a little hazy. I haven't read that in the 11 last few days.
12 MR. GUILD: I guess my point.is, Judge, if 13 the Board contemplates deferring on Intervenors' request 14 that a subpoena be issued, which seems to me to be 15 another matter altogether, just'on the top of it, just 16 on first thinking about it, I would sure like a chance 17 to maybe between now and the time we finish this week to 18 take a look at that policy statement and take a position 19 at that time.
20 Do I understand that is the Board's contemplated 21 course?
22 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I think that we are going to 23 defer, yes, on a subpoena until the beginning of next 24 week, when we have had a chance to study the matter 25 further.
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7767 1 MR. GALLO: Well, Judge Grossman, on that )
2 point we --
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN: And from what you have read, l l
4 .Mr. Gallo, it appears as though we ought to inform the 5 parties as to what the Board's position is. It would 6 seem to be implicit in that.
7 If you could certainly file briefs, then you ought 8 to know what you are going to be filing briefs on, so 9 that's right; but we are not in a position now to tell 10 you what our recommendation is and we won't be in a 11 position until we have studied the matter further next 12 Monday and Tuesday.
13 MR. GALLO: One last point: On Intervenors' 14 position for subpoena and ruling on new evidence or, in 15 the alternative, on a nes ;ontention, we intend to file 16 a response to that.
] ,
17 We think that our response will provide a basis for 18 not only defeating the motion as to a ruling on new 19 evidence or, in the alternative, on a new contention but 20 also would support a motion to quash any subpoena, we 21 would suggest, respectfully, that the Board may want to 22 see our answer before it rules on the question.
23 We will endeavor to file it by Friday.
4 24 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. And get it to us in i
() 25 Washington by Monday. <
i i
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($) l 1 MR. GALLO: Yes. We will try to hand it out l l
2 Friday, if we can, before the Board recesses. l l
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. Well, my feeling, l
l 4 offhand, is that the only area for your attack on that 5 would be on the general relevance grounds; but you may l
6 feel otherwise and you can point that out in a brief.
7 I don't see how you could move to quash on behalf l 8 of the witness, not representing the witness, I think 9 just on the grounds of general relevance; and I don't 10 even see how you come into that, because that would be, 11 I think, an ex parte matter; but you are free to try 12 your hand at it, even after everything I have said.
( 13 (Laughte r . )
1.4 MR. GALLO: Well, I won't attempt to explain 15 the basis for our position at this point.
16 MR. GUILD: I want to say, Mr. Chairman, if
(
17 the company is going to take a position now that they 18 are going to propose, we would like a chance to-see what 19 their papers say before the Board retires to decide on 20 this. We would like the courtesy of an opportunity for 21 a reply.
1 22 It seems appropriate, if they are going to come up 1 23 with a novel position on quashing a subpoena, that we !
24 ought to, at least, be heard on that position.
(} 25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, I would expect that if l
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5 MR. GUILD: Fine, Judge.
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN: But, you know, we are just 7 talking hypotheticals now and speculating.
8 Mr. Gallo may well decide he doesn't even have a 9 basis for doing that by Friday, in any event.
10 Mr. Berry, did you wish to be heard?
11 MR. BERRY: No, Staff doesn't have anything 12 to add to the Board's suggested plan.
13 We are evaluating the Intervenors' latest papers.
14 We may decide to file a written response to that as 15 well.
16 I do have a preliminary matter, though.
17 Last Tuesday, July the'8th, the Board requested of 18 the Staff to undertake a review to see if there were any 19 documents responsive -- underlying documents responsive 20 -- to the memoranda that the Staff produced last week, 21 the May 14th memoranda.
22 I have during the luncheon recess made available to 23 the parties and now to the Board a copy of Enforcement 24 Board briefing paper that served as the basis for the
/~T 25 Staff's discussion that led to the generation of the May
(_/
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1 14, 1986, mem'oranda that was produced.
2 Also, there are three attachments to the 3 enforcement briefing; and, although the enforcement 4 briefing document itself indicates that there are six 5 attachments, we have only produced 3, Attachments 1, 5 6 and 6, and that's because Attachments 2, 3 and 4 either 7 have already been produced or are readily available in 8 published Commission documents and 10 CFR 50.7 and the 9 Energy Reorganization Act of 1974, Section 2.210.
10 The Staff has made these documents available 11 pursuant to the request of the Board, and that's found 12 at transcript Page 6733.
13 The documents also make reference to a decision 14 reached in enforcement conference with respect to Byron.
15 Although that is not technically relevant to this 16 proceeding, in the interests of full disclosure, the 17 Staff has produced it, since the Braidwood matter, the 18 Mr. Puckett matter, was taken up in that same 19 conference.
20 So pursuant to the Board's request we have produced 21 all of the documents.
22 Also, I would note that the Staff's search for 23 documents responsive to outstanding discovery requests 24 are still ongoing and we would expect to produce the
() 25 fruits of that search promptly.
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s 1 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. Just to tie it down, 2 this is in response to the Board's suggestion that that 3 simple paragraph would have been unusual without some 4 either meeting or memoranda to support the position 5 taken?
6 MR. BERRY: That is correct, your Honor.
7 Like I said, at transcript Page 6733 there is a 8 request by the Chairman: "If there are underlying 9 memorand um, that I think they ought to be produced to 10 the parties and the Board"; and that's what these 11 documents are.
12 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay, s- 13 MR. GUILD: Mr. Chairman, just to complete 14 the record, if I could, I asked Mr. Berry over the 15 recess if he could identify what the omitted attachments were.
^
16 17 One of those simply cites DOL Case No. 825 ERA-7, 18 and I would ask if he could state for the record what 19 that is, that attachment, that has been omitted from the 20 disclosure.
21 MR. BERRY: Yes. Just one second, your 22 Honor. ,
23 MR. GUILD: Page 6, Mr. Berry. ;
24 MR. BERRY: Your Honor, I am informed that 25 that is a reference to the Puckett Department of Labor
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1 proceeding. It would be the transcript and the exhibits
-! 2 that were offered in that proceeding.
3 Those documents have been previously made available 4 by the Staff to the parties in discovery.
5 MR. GUILD: Thank you.
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. That completes the 7 preliminary matters and we can return to the witness.
8 Mr. Miller, you are about to begin your Redirect.
9 MR. MILLER: Mr. Berry asked if he might --
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I am sorry.
11 MR. BERRY: Your Honor, I would ask leave to 12 ask two questions of the witness that I neglected to 13 ask.
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Fine. Why don't you proceed 15 then?
16 BY MR. BERRY:
- 17 Q Mr. Seeders, you testified earlier that after your 18 August 17th meeting, August 17, 1984, the me? ting with 19 Mr. Seese and Mr. Seltmann where you were read the 20 warning, that you came away from that meeting thinking 21 that Comstock was out to get you or trying to get rid of 22 you I believe was the words you used.
23 Do you recall that?
24 A Yes, sir.
i
(} 25 0 Is that when you decided to write the letter to Mr.
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1 DeWald?
2 A No, sir.
3 3 Q Well, when did you decide to write that letter?
,4 A- I had been contemplating writing a letter for some time. .
5 0 I also want to show you, Mr. Seeders, two exhibits.
6 They are Applicant Exhibit 26 and Applicant Exhibit 35.
7 I will direct your -- ,
j 8 MR. GUILD: Excuse me?
I 9 MR. BERRY: Applicant Exhibit 35 and 10 Applicant Exhibit 24. That should be the procedure.
11 BY MR. BERRY:
- 12 Q Now, I will direct your attention to the last page of l s- ) 13 Applicant Exhibit 35; and this appears to be a report of j 14 some kind authored by you on August 15, 1983,'and I l
, 15 .would ask if y,ou can identify that.
j
- 16 Do you recognize that?
i 17 MR. GUILD: Mr. Chairman, before the witness j 18 responds, I believe this whole line is completely beyond i
19 the scope of any party's examination of Mr. Seeders.
20 Not only is it questions that Mr. Berry didn't ,
21 inquire into when he had the witness, but they are j 22 questions that no counsel has inquired into.
23 I know we are pretty liberal in applying scope 24 limitations; but if we are going to pour through these l
\
25 documents, which counsel for Applicant did not even see ;
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1 fit to bring before the witness, I can submit that we 2 may open the door to considerably more extensive 3 examination of the witness.
4 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Yes; but the rules that we 5 have been adopting permits the parties the first time 6 they have an opportunity to open their own areas, so 7 that we don't have to go through the step of recalling a 8 witness when that party presents its case in chief.
9 MR. GUILD: I understand.
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN: And this would fall within 11 that area.
12 MR. GUILD: I understand that, Judge; but Mr.
- 13 Seeders has never been identified as a Staff witness and 14 they have never contemplated calling him as a witness.
15 That rule did make sense, I think, when we had 16 witnesses that were common to both Applicant and 17 Intervenor; but here not only is he not a witness for 18 Staff, never contemplated as a witness for Staff, but 1 19 now we hear a line of questions that is far beyond 20 anything that Mr. Miller inquired into for Applicant or 21 I inquired into for Intervenor.
22 MR. BERRY: I was --
23 JUDGE GROSSMAN: The ruling stands.
24 I just want to mention to Mr. Berry that you may be 25 opening, you know, something lengthy, an area that may
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O 1 take a lot of time; but we are not restricting you and 2 you are certainly entitled to do it.
3 MR. BERRY: It's not my intent, your Honor.
4 I just want to tie up one loose end raised by the 5 testimony of a previous witness.
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN: That's fine.
7 MR. BERRY: I believe there was a pending 8 question.
9 A I can answer it. I can answer the question.
10 This appears to be a General Inspection Report, 11 which we were writing in the early days, on a torque 12 wrench with a broken collar spring that would not affect 13 the calibration of the tool.
14 The tool was so tagged and it would not be used 15 again.
16 BY MR. BERRY:
17 Q You say this is a General Inspection Report?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q It's not an ICR?
20 A No, sir.
21 Q Is there a reason why you would document this on a 22 General Inspection Report as opposed to an ICR?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 In the earlier days we were using a General 25 Inspection Report to document an action taken on
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uJ l equipment or tools that did not affect the calibration 2 or the work in the field.
3 MR. BERRY: That is all I have, your Honor.
4 JUDGE GROSSMAN: That is fine.
5 Mr. Miller, time for your Redirect. If you want a 6 few minutes, that is fine.
No, sir. l
] 7 MR. MILLER: I am prepared to go 8 forward.
9 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 10 BY MR. MILLER 11 Q Mr. Seeders, in examination by Mr. Guild he directed 12 your attention to what I believe has been marked as 13 Applicant's Exhibit No. 81.
14 I am going to place before you a whole set of the 15 exhibits that were identified during your examination by 16 me, and I would ask that you turn to Applicant's Exhibit 17 81.
18 That's the Audit Report that dealt with the 19 photocopied entrics on a few of your documents which 20 related to calibrations.
21 You teratified in response to Mr. Guild's questions 22 that you had never photocopied your signature or 23 anything other than the material at the top of the Form 24 23's.
(} 25 Do you recall that testimony generally?
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1 A Yes, sir.
l 2 Q All right. I am going to place before you a set of five 3 green folders and I want-to ask you, Mr. Seeders, 4 whether you have ever seen those folders and the 5 documents that are in them before.
! 6 MR. GUILD: Let me ask first: Have these i
i 7 documents been disclosed in discovery to the parties,
! 8 before Mr. Seeders answers that question?
9 MR. MILLER: Your Honor, I don't understand
- 10 that to be an objection.
11 MR. GUILD: Well, it is an objection.
12 And I presume by the lack of response that they 13 haven't been; and, again, we have an instance of the 14 witness being ambushed on the witness stand and counsel 1
15 for this party being ambushed on the witness stand.
16 MR. MILLER: Your Honor --
17 MR. GUILD: It really seems to me we crossed 18 this particular territory once before on Applicant's 19 Direct and I raised the very point..
20 If now we are going to try to rely on records that 21 were not disclosed in discovery as substantiating the 22 company's position, where there have been outstanding 1
23 discovery requests for all relevant documents relating l 24 to Mr. Seeders and his termination for some time --
1
(} 25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Excuse me.
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4 1 Let me ask you: Mr. Miller, did you open this i 2 matter on Direct Examination?
3 MR. MILLER: I asked on Direct Examination as 4 to whether or not the witness had photocopied certain b
5 entries, and there is an Audit Report that I used to i
6 refresh his recollection that indicated that he had 7 photocopied his initials and other information.
8 I was, frankly, surprised when the witness stated 9 that he had not, in fact, photocopied his initials or i
10 any other -- anything other than the headings on those-11 documents. ,
12 I believe that, not having had any reason to O 13 anticipate that the witness would contradict the audit 14 finding, that I am entitled to demonstrate or attempt to 15 demonstrate that the facts are otherwise than what he j 16 testified.to. ,
17 This is not a question of ambushing anybody. It is 18 a question, I think, of legitimate Redirect Examination 19 when the witness's testimony on Cross is inconsistent 3
l 20 with a fact that I believe was established back in 1983 l 21 and I thought would be a matter that was not somethina 22 we were going to have a dispute about.
23 MR. GUILD: Well, Mr. Chairman --
24 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Wait a second, Mr. Miller.
(} 25 Why do you say this is legitimate with regard to i
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1 the Cross?
2 If you asked the questions in the first place, you 3 had your opportunity at that time on Direct. Now, I 4 don't want to go into the rule in the Queen's case or 5 whatever it is, which is no longer adhered to, which is 6 when you are going to ask a witness about a document, 7 you show him the document. You are not required to do 8 that now.
9 But you are going one step further and you are 10 asking him about something of which you have documentary 11 evidence; and then when you get the answer, you at that 12 point don't even give him the document but you wait i
13 until there is Cross Examination and then you come back
, 14 on Redirect after you have closed your case in chief.
15 MR. MILLER: Well, your Honor, Mr. Seeders, I 16 believe, testified that he wou,1d have to look at the 17 documents in order to tell for sure.
18 I really thought that -- this was early in my 19 examination -- I thought that it was a fact that when I 20 showed Mr. Seeders the Audit Report, which indicates on 21 its face what items he had photocopied, that he would 22 recollect and agree that that had, in fact, been the 23 case; but he did not. He contradicted the Audit Report.
I 24 Mr. Guild went back into it on Cross Examination,
(} 25 and Mr. Seeders testified again on Mr. Guild's Cross Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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2 I believe this is a legitimate form of Redirect 3 Examination and that I shouldn't be hampered by the time 4 at which these come up.
5 The facts are, I think, readily ascertainable.
6 It was not an easy matter, necessarily, to get 7 these original documents from the QC file; and, frankly, f
8 I cou'dn't anticipate when I raised this matter with Mr.
9 Seeders initially that we were going to have an issue 10 with respect to it.
11 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. Let me ask you again:
t 12 What is the relevance of this line of questioning?
l'3 MR. MILLER: Hell, your Honor, I believe that 14 this goes to Mr. Seeders' memory and his credibility; 15 and it is on that basis that I bring it up at this time.
16 MR. GUILD: Mr. Chairman, it's absolutely 17 collateral; and now on a collateral matter we are going I
18 to be ambushed, and I just think it's highly 19 inappropriate.
20 Not only is it unfair to the witness -- and I 21 don't presume to know what his answers to the question 22 might be -- but it's certainly unfair to this party to 23 now have Mr. Miller, who has at his disposal the tens or 24 hundreds of thousands of pieces of paper at that plant, 25 particularly those that were within Mr. Seeders' scope '
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1 of work, who presumably had an able staff and competent 2 associates who were going to assemble his case for him, 3 who had an opportunity to do that, generally an 4 opportunity that we didn't have, disclosed none of these 5 documents in discovery and now we hear about them -- and G the witness does as well -- for the first time on his 7 re-examination.
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Let me ask you, also, Mr.
9 Miller: Were these documents' copied and copies 10 submitted to counsel or not even that?
11 MR. MILLER: I can't answer that question, 12 your Honor. I don't know.
13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: You know --
14 MR. MILLER: Your Honor, I will tell you that 15 the document request --
1 61 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Yes.
17 MR. MILLER: -- had to do with, as I recall, 18 all documents that relate to claims of harassment and 19 intimidation with respect to Mr. Seeders; and Mr.
20 Seeders has testified that he was not disciplined or in 21 any way reprimanded for this incident.
22 I am going to try to conduct this examination to 23 show quite simply that Mr. Seeders' recollection of 24 those events was faulty or that he was mistaken when he 25 testified to the Board before as to what it was that he
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4 , JUDGE GROSSMAN: You know, this fits into the 5 general line of questioning that the Board found 6 objectionable with testing the witness on matters that
, 7 are not relevant. l 8 Now, for one thing, I would assume the reason these 9 documents were not submitted to counsel for Intocvenors 10 and Staff in response of discovery is they were not i 11 considered relevant at the time. l 12 Now, my recollection of how you proceeded with Mr.
O
\/ 13 Seeders' testimony, with his Direct Examination, was 14 that you were testing him all the time on matters that 15 really, I suppose, in a general' sense might~be 16 considered relevant; but, basically, testing him on 17 memory for dates and little specifics, which really 18 didn't amount to anything that we have in issue here.
l 19 I suppose, perhaps, you were going to make some 20 mileage out of the fact that he couldn't remember 21 specific dates; but whether he remembered the dates or 22 not I don't think was even relevant to what we have 23 here.
24 This seems to fall within that category of just 25 testing a witness, finding anything that you can in his
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V 1 background, which may-not be relevant to the case to 2 test him on that.
3 Now, I don't really think that is a proper way to 4 -- I don't think that is proper for the subject matter 5 we have here.
6 Opening the witness to collateral attacks on 7 whatever you may find in his background, I think we 8 ought to limit that.
9 Now --
10 MR. MILLER: I -- I am sorry.
11 JUDGE GROSSMAN: If his answers to the ICR or 12 whatever it was, the Audit Report, is not relevant to 13 what we have in issue here, then why shou'ld we allow any 14 further questioning on that?
15 I don't see that. Why should we open it up to 16 collateral attack?
17 MR. MILLER: Your Honor, it seems to me that 18- the use that I made of those audit reports initially was 19 to demonstrate that there had, in fact, been instances 20 in the past where Mr. Seeders' work had been questioned 21 by Commonwealth Edison or Comstock audits.
22 I had examination on that, and the Board can judge 23 how probative that is with respect to the later events 24 leading to Mr. Seeders' transfer.
25 But it seems to me it is legitimate for the
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1 Applicant to demonstrate or attempt to demonstrate that i
2 when Mr. Seeders was transferred, it was not as if he J
3 had had an unblemished record up to then. I think that ,
4 is --
5 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Was this one of the matters 6 that was raised in the letter to or the warning to Mr.
[ 7 Seeders --
8 MR. MILLER: No, it was not.
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -- as to his deficiencies?
10 MR. MILLER: No, it was not.
j 11 MR. GUILD: And it was.never disclosed. Even i
] 12 the Audit Report itself, Mr. Chairman, was never 13 disclosed as a basis for taking any action against Mr.
14 Seeders.
15 You know, now we hear for the first time when it's 16 referred to by Mr. Miller in his examination and, you i
i 17 know, they are offered only for tangential relevance; ;
1
- 18 and now we are going to impeach him on a matter that is 19 even one further step removed.
I 20 I think it's objectionable, because I can't prepare i
i 21 an intelligent response to documents that I have never 22 seen before -- I don't know whether Mr. Seeders can or I
23 cannot -- but it seems to me to be potentially unfair; 24 and he is not represented here.
25 MR. MILLER: Your Honor, the reason I got the
]
2
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1 documents is it seems to me it's a relatively simple 2 matter to determine what was Xeroxed and what was not.
3 And that -- I mean, either they were or they weren't --
4 and that is the purpose of this examination.
5 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. We will take a recess 6 of five minutes.
7 MR. BERRY: Mr. Chairman. l 8 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I am sorry. Before we take 9 that recess, Mr. Berry has something.
10 MR. BERRY: I would only add that I believe 11 technically the Board is probably correct in its earlier 12 statements as to whether this is a collateral matter we 13 are talking about, although I do think that it may be 14 helpful to the Board to have this information.
15 The other point I would just like to note at this 16 time is that the Board said earlier or indicated that 17 the particular dates may not be that important or they 18 may just go, the purpose of them, only to test the i
19 witness's recall.
20 I would only ask that the Board reserve judgment on 21 that point there, because in the Staff's view, I think, i 22 in terms of this particular witness, I think dates may 23 turn out to be highly relevant; and I would only ask 24 that the Board just bear that in mind.
(} 25 The dates that particular actions happened, i
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1 conversations took place, I think may, whm.: all the 2 evidence is in, be a very important matter.
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Just to further clarify it, 4 I was not discussing or referring to the times that the 5 witness met or spoke to Mr. Schulz, which may well be 6 what you have in mind, Mr. Berry, but just the questions 7 on when someone spoke to someone else.
8 I think the transcript will be the final judge as l
9 to what was important as far as dates went; and I am not I 10 saying that the sequence of events doesn't have some l 11 importance, but the exact date or the (xact day of the 12 wee.k that something happened I am not sure was that 13 important or relevant.
14 We will take our five-minute recess.
15 (WHEREUPON, a recess was had, ' af ter which 16 the hearing was resumed as follows:)
17 JUDGE GROSSMAN: We are back in session.
18 The Board has caucussed on that.
19 On a 2 to 1 vote, with the Chairman in the 20 minority, we are going to allow that in.
21 My feeling, my position is that it was a collateral 22 matter, that it ,vas raised for the purpose of testing 23 the witness's credibility on something that is not 24 relevant and that with that kind of question, that the 25
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1 can't go behind that and seek to find out what the facts 2 are.
3 But, in any event, the Board, the majority, feels 4 that once the area has been inquired into, that the full 5 record ought to be shown in this case, which would 6 require further questioning of the witness as to what 7 exactly did transpire that underlay the ICR or ICR's.
8 So we will permit the questioning.
9 MR. MILLER: Thank you.
10 MR. GUILD: Your Honor, I would just ask that 11 the record reflect that the documents have been before 12 the witness but he has not examined them over the 13 recess.
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. The witness can 15 examine the documents now.
16 MR. MILLER: I think there may even have been 17 a pending question, which was to Mr. Seeders, whether he 18 has ever seen these green folders or green folders like 19 them before.
20 A No, sir, I haven't.
21 BY MR. MILLER:
22 O I would like to turn first to Exhibit 81 -- excuse me --
23 and there is on Page 2 of Attachment A to the Audit 24 Report a list of tools as to which Xeroxed entries were 25 found by the Commonwealth Edison auditor.
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1 One of those is rod oven A763.
2 Mr. Seeders, I am opening the folder that has on 3 the tab, " Portable oven, LKC No. 763," and I am ttrning 4 to the page in the document -- in the folder, rather, 5 that bears a date July 5, 1983, in the right-hand 6 margin, and ask you first whether you recognize the 7 handwriting on that document.
8 MR. GUILD: In the left-hand margin?
9- MR. MILLER: Well, on the entire document.
10 MR. GUILD: You asked about a date up here.
11 I think you said the right-hand margin.
12 (Indicating.) -
O 13- MR. MILLER: I am sorry. I meant the 14 left-hand margin. Thank you.
15 A It appears to be my writing. )
l 16 BY MR. MILLER:
17 Q The page immediately succeeding it is also dated July 5, 18 1983, in the left-hand margin and says, "J. D. S., new 19 corrected copy"?-
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q Having looked at those documents, those two documents, 22 Mr. Seeders, is this one example of the Form 23's which 23 you had to re-do following the audit finding that found 24 photocopied entries?
25 A Yes, sir.
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1 Q Now, by looking at the one that is marked in this folder 2 " void" can you tell which portions of that were 3 photocopied and which were original entries?
1 4 I think after you are finished, I am going to have 5 to display it to the Board, because it is not readily 6 apparent.
7 A It looks like the entire copy has been photocopied 8 except for the standard number, the LKC number and the 9 ratings. <
10 Q All right, sir. So the items that have been photocopied 11 do, in fact, include your signature -- your initials; is 12 that correct? l 13 A If, in fact, this is -- this came from the original 14 copy. l 15 0 All right. Thank you.
16 A I have no way of knowing where that copy came f rom.
17 0 I understand that.
18 How were these individual tool files kept in the 1
19 fall of 1983?
20 Were they kept in folders?
21 A They were kept in a white folder, similar to these.
22 0 I see. Mr. Seeders, once again turning to the one that 23 is marked, "High press crimper LKC No. A335," the entry 24 for April 18, 1983, which is one of the ones identified
(} 25 in the Commonwealth Edison Audit Report, can we agree Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. _
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l that there is a sheet, in your handwriting, with the 2 date 4/18/83 in the left-hand margin, marked " void" in
,3 red, and following that sheet is one also marked 4 4/18/83, which says, "New corrected copy," with your 5 ,
initials, also; correct?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q All right. Can you tell, by looking at the entry that 8 is marked " void," what part, if any, of the document was 9 photocopied?
10 A It looks like all of it except the A335 for the tool 11 number and the .895 for the rating.
12 JUDGE COLE: How can you tell that, Mr.
13 Seeders?
14 THE WITNESS: It appears to me -- it looks to 15 me like the tool equipment number and the reading number 16 are in ink pen.
17 JUDGE COLE: And you can tell that from the 18 other writing on the page?
I 19 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
20 JUDGE COLE: All right. Thank you.
l 21 BY MR. MILLER: -
22 Q They are done in black ink, so, it's, as I say, not 23 readily apparent which is Xeroxing and done in pen; is 24 that correct? l l
() 25 A Yes, sir; yes, sir.
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1 Q Mr. Seeders, I don't wish to go through each of these I ~
2 folders. Let me just ask you one more question about 3 this document we have just been looking at.
4 Mr. Guild examined you with respect to whether or 4
5 not a Form 23 was filled out for crimpers and strippers.
6 Do you recall that examination?
7 A Yes, sir.
-f 8 Q Can we agree that for, at least, this tool for that 9 examination or calibration inspeqtion you did, in fact, 10 fill out a Form 23?
11 A Okay. Now -- no, no. For a high press the only way --
1 12 the only way we could check a high press crimper was to 13 actually crimp a lug and measure the lug, actually 14 measure the crimp.
15 Q So that's why you actually had a measured value that you 16 could write in?
- 17 A This is a measured value that we could write on a 23;
. 18 and that was after -- I can't remember what date we I
- 19 finally started using this method for the high presses 20 only. Okay?
21 Q All right.
j 22 A There were no -- you have to understand there were no --
! 23 pins to measure the high press. You are talking about a 24 very, very large diameter, a lot larger than the regular l
i i
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1 Q As between the regular crimpers and high 'p ress crimpers, 2 approximately how many high press crimpers were there?
3 A There were approximately five or six. I can't remember 4 exac how many.
5 Q And th n many more than that of the regular, 6 smaller-diameter crimpers; is that correct?
7 A Oh, yes, sir; yes, sir.
8 MR. MILLER: Your Honor, I am happy to leave 9 these with the Board for its perusal, if it wishes.
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I just want to check. f 11 Is that the same on this particular folder, that 12 everything was Xeroxed except for --
13 THE WITNESS: That one I can't --
14 MR. MILLER: Let the record reflect that the 15 Chairman has directed the witness's attention to a Form 16 23 for LKC No. 2209 rod oven, with a date in the 17 left-hand margin of December 27, 1983.
18 THE WITNESS: This one is completely written 19 out. There is none of the -- I don't believe any of 20 this. I don't believe anything is Xeroxed on this form.
21 JUDGE GROSSMAN: And you are looking at the 22 one that is marked " void" on it?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
24 BY MR. MILLER:
() 25 Q Do you know why it was marked " void"?
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1 A No, sir, I don't know.
2 MR. MILLER: I would like the record to 3 reflect that the particular entry that the Chairman 4 directed the witness's attention to is not one as to 5 which there is an indication on the nudit Report that 6 there was, in fact, a Xerox copy.
7 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I am sorry, Mr. Miller. I 8 thought you had represented that these five files were 9 all included in that Audit Report --
10 MR. MILLER: Yes, sir, 11 JUDGE GROSSMAN: -- as being in this list.
- 12 MR. MILLER
- They are, in fact, your Honor;
> 13 but the're are only certain entries indicated in the 14 Audit Report as having Xeroxed material.
15 For rod oven, the file folder to which you directed 16 the witness's attention, it is the June 30, 1983, report 17 which is identified in the Audit Report.
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN: So you questioned the 19 witness about two particular items in which there was a 20 Xeroxing of more than just th heading; is that so?
21 MR. MILLER: Yes, your Honor.
22 I am going to terminate this aspect of my 23 examination now. I don't believe it would be fruitful 24 to go through every entry on the Audit Report for that
() 25 purpose. l 1
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O 1 MR. GUILD: Mr. Chairman, I move to strike 2 the last series of questions and answers.
l 3 It is just simply inappropriate to force the 4 parties to conduct discovery on the witness stand.
5 The witness has not seen the documents until t 6 confronted with them by counsel, does not have a fair 7 opportunity to formulate a complete answer and to review f 8 the documents; and, certainly, this party has not had an
- 9 opportunity to do so.
q 10 Beyond simply the question of whether this is 11 relevant matter, it is simply unfair to this party to
[ 12 require this party to conduct discovery while the iO i
13 witness sits on the witness stand.
l 14 We have been diligent and have sought relevant 15 matter to be disclosed in discovery. This matter was 1
16 not.
17 Mr. Miller, obviously, had it prepared and has not i l
18 disclosed it until today.
I 19 MR. MILLER: I did not have it prepared, your 20 Honor.
21 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. Mr. Miller represents 1
- 22 that he didn't have it prepared.
5 23 By the way, how many --
l 24 MR. GUILD: He asked that it be searched for 25 and produced.
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1 what I meant to say, 2 He is not the author of the documents, obviously.
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. Just to set the 4 record straight, how many items were there in that Audit 5 Report in which there was improper Xeroxing alleged?
6 MR. MILLER: 13 separate entries in five 7 different tool folders, your Honor.
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. And you asked them to 9 search for everything and you brought us two of them 10 now.
11 MR. MILLER: No, sir. I asked them to bring 12 me the folders for those five tools.
T
~/ 13 <
I have only examined the witness on two specific 14 entries that are referred to in the Audit Report; and I 15 do not propose to go through each one and take the time 16 of the Board and the parties, unless the Board wishes me
- 17 to do so.
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Were there 13 instances of 19 improper Xeroxing?
20 MR. MILLER: There are 13 identified i
21 specifically in this Audit Report, yes, sir. I l
22 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, I may be losing 23 something but I thought you brought five files here and 24 you asked the witness about two of them.
25 I asked about a third one and the indication was --
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1 a third and a fourth one and the indication was -- in 2 both of those that the Xeroxing was only with regard to 3 the heading.
4 Now, is that not part of the 13?
5 MR. MILLER: I don't believe that the one you 6 specifically directed his attention to is one of the 13 7 that were identified in the Audit Report.
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Is my understanding correct 9 that the forms that had " void" on them were the ones in 10 which there war the improper Xeroxing?
i 11 MR. MILLER: Yes, sir; ann I believe that is 12 what the witness testified to.
13 JUDGE GROSSMAN: And the one that I referred 14 the witness to -- I thought I had referred him to two of 15 ,them that had " void" on them; and both of those only had 16 Xeroxing of the heading.
17 Wasn't that so, Mr. Miller?
18 MR. MILLER: I think the witness testified as 19 to one that you directed his attention to, that there 20 was no Xeroxing on it; and he was unable to explain why 21 the " void" appeared on that document. l 22 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. And the other one had 23 Xeroxing only of the heading?
l 24 MR. MILLER: I am sorry. That aspect of your J
- 25 examination I am afraid I really just don't recall.
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l THE WITNESS: That's correct. He asked me 2 about two of them.
3 MR. MILLER: Okay.
4 JUDGE GROSSKAN: And on those two of them, l
5 two of the five folders, the item that had " void" on it l
I 6 did not have Xeroxing of the improper items.
I 7 MR. MILLER: Did not. Mr. Seeders stated 8 that it did not include a Xeroxing of his signature or l 9 anything and -- well, in one of them there was no 10 Xeroxing that he identified.
j 11 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, it was my l
12 understanding from looking at the documents that that 13 was so; and I asked Mr. Seeders and it's his impression,
$ 14 too, that that is so, which leaves maybe one folder i
15 left.
16 I don't know if we want to split hairs on this, but i
17 I find two not to equal 13; and if you can tell me what i
1 18 an explanation is for that, I would be happy to hear it.
19 MR. MILLER: Your Honor, there were 13 20 entries out of five folders. Some folders have multiple 1 21 entries identified by the auditor as having Xeroxed l 22 entries.
23 I refrained in the interests of time from going 24 into each one of them. I will certainly be happy to do
- 25 so.
, Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 Then, as I say, the Chairman directed the witness's 2 attention to ones that were not identified by the 3 auditor and the witness responded; but why don't I --
4 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Let's ask for your 5 representation first, Mr. Miller:
6 Do you represent there are 13 items there in which 7 there was Xeroxing of the material other than the 8 heading?
9 MR. MILLER: Yes, sir, I do.
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN: In those folders that you f 11 have?
2 12 MR. MILLER: Yes, sir; and I would be happy 4
13 to make them --
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN: You might just as well go 15 ahead and do that, because the record is -- I have 16 already indicated what my position is on that and that's 17 not the Board position.
18 MR. GUILD: Mr. Chairman, I have a motion to 19 strike that is pending.
20 I take it that has been denied?
21 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Yes, it has been denied.
22 MR. GUILD: I would ask for a recess, then, 23 when counsel completes his examination so that I may 24 conduct discovery on this question.
25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I think you are entitled to
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Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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7799 1 have that right now.
2 Would you wish to do that, take a look at the 3 folders?
4 MR. GUILD: No. I would like to hear what i 5 Mr. Miller's examination consists of.
6 Then I would like to conduct whatever discovery 7 seems necessary that late, since he has not disclosed 8 this as part of his case so far.
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, Mr. Guild, we are in 10 the middle of the hearing now and what I am saying is:
J 11 You have an opportunity to examine the folders 12 right now and you will.have an opportunity for a further O 13 recess after Mr. Miller is through to formulate some 14 further questions, if you want.
15 MR. 3UILD: That is wnat I am asking for,,is
- 16 a recess when
- 4r. Miller completes his examination.
17 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. You are not asking 18 for one now?
19 MR. GUILD: No, sir, I am not.
20 JUDGE GROSSMAN: You are entitled to have one 21 and review the document.
22 MR. GUILD: I can't very well do that when we 23 have the documents and the witness is on the stand, 24 Judge. )
() 25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Very well. Mr. Miller, Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
4 Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262 ,
7800 A)
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1 proceed.
2 BY MR. MILLER:
3 0 I have directed the witness's attention to this folder 4 ma rked , "High press crimper, LKC No. A926."
5 There is an indication in the Audit Report that the 6 Form 23 that is dated August 25, 1983, bears some 7 photocopied material.
8 I have directed Mr. Seeders' attention to a Form 23 .
. 9 which bears that date. It is marked " void."
10 I would ask him whether he could state for the 11 record what, if any, material on that Form 23 is 12 photocopied, i 13 A It looks like everything but the tool number.
i 14 0 All right, sir. The next one that is identified in the 15 Audit Report is one dated July 26th -- I am sorry,
, 16 Septembe r 26, 1983.
17 Again, I have directed the witness's attention to a 18 Form 23 with that date, also marked " void," and ask the 19 witness whether he can tell what, if any, data on that
- 20 Form 23 is photocopied.
i 21 A It looks like everything but the tool equipment number.
I 22 0 Turning now to the tool that is identified in the Audit 23 Report as Crimper A335, the earliest date indicated on 24 the Audit Report is April 18, 1983.
25 I have directed the witness's attention to a
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1 document, a Form 23 in that folder, which bears the date j
2 April 18, 1983, and would ask whether he can tell us 3 which, if any, information on that form is photocopied.
4 A It looks like everything except the tool number and the 5 reading.
6 0 Thank you.
7 The next date is one for May 18, 1983, for that 8 tool, A3 35.
9 I have directed the witness's attention to a Form I
{ 10 23 that bears that date and I, or ce again, ask if he can 11 describe for us which informatior., if any, has been 12 photocopied.
13 A Everything but the tool number and the reading.
14 0 All right. I am going to the form for that crimper A335 15 for June 17, 1983.
16 Again I have directed the witness's attention to a 17 form with that date, marked " void," and ask whether he 18 can describe which information, if any, has been
- 19 photocopied. 1 20 A Everything but the equipment number and the reading.
i 21 Q On the Audit Report the next entry that is indicated as 22 having photocopied information is Form 23, dated July 23 18, 1983.
24 I have directed the witness's attention to that
() 25 form, a form with that date on it, and ask whether he 1
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 l (312) 232-0262 l l
7802
'v) 1 can tell which, if any, information on that form has 2 been photocopied.
3 A Everything but the equipment number and the reading.
4 Q All right. The Audit Report indicates the next Form 23 5 with photocopied information is dated August 18, 1983.
6 Again, I have directed the witness's attention to a 7 form with that date on it, marked " void," and ask, 8 again, whether he can tell us which information, if any, 9 has been photocopied.
10 A Everything but the equipment number and the reading.
11 Q And, finally,, for this tool number A335, the Audit i 12 Report indicates that a Form 23, bearing the date 13 September 16, 1983, has photocopied information.
14 Again, I would ask the witness to identify what 15 information, if any, has the photocopy or what 16 information, if any, has been photocopied?
17 A Everything but the equipment number and the reading.
18 Q Mr. Seeders, each of the forms that I have shown you in 19 this file has, in fact, been in your handwriting; is 20 that correct?
21 A It is a copy of my handwriting.
1 22 O Yes, sir.
23 The next one indicated on -- the next tool 24 indicated on -- the Audit Report as containing l
() 25 photocopied information is rod oven A137. There are Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 i
i O
- I three entries indicated. The first-in date is March 2,
.2 1983. ,
- 3 I call the witness's attention to a Form 23 which l l
! 4 bears that date, and ask whether he can te11 us which 1
5 information on there, if any, is photocopied.
6 A Everything but the equipment number and the reading.
1 7 Q All right. The next in date is June 2, 1983.
i 8 Again, I have directed the witness's attention to a :
I l j 9 Form 23, which bears that date, for rod oven A137, and j 10 ask whether you can tell us which information, if any, f 11 has been photocopied? , {
1 j 12 f A Everything but the equipment number and the reading.
I j O 13 Q Your Honor,'I find that one of the Form 23's that I i
j 14 represented -- I am sorry. Here it is. j
{ 15 The last one that is indicated to be photocopied is 16 indicated to Fave a date of September 2, 1983. l 17 I ca11 the witness's attention to a Form 23 bearing l 18 that date, marked " void," and ask, again, whether he can 19 identify for us which information or what information, 20 if any, on that form was photocopied?
1 21 A Everything except the equipment number and the reading.
l
} 22 Q For rod oven A736, there is an indication that & Form 23 i
23 for July 5, 1983, has photocopied information.
]
24 I would ask the witness if by looking at a form in l
i O 25 ehat fo1 der for that date he con ee11 which information, Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
il Geneva, Illinois 60134 232-0262 -
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7804 1 if any, is photocopied?
2 A Everything except the equipment number and the reading.
3 Q Thank you, Mr. Seeders.
4 When you were examined by Mr. Guild this morning 5 regarding the audit finding that was made by 6 Commonwealth Edison quality assurance in May of 1984, 7 you indicated that the responsibility for the response
- 8 to that audit finding belonged with Mr. Seltmann.
9 Do you recall generally that line of interrogation?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q Now, the Audit Report itself has been marked as 12 Applicant's Exhibit 83 and I believe that you testified
( 13 on examination by me and also again by Mr. Guild that 14 you never saw the document in the form of the Audit 15 Report before.
16 And under examination --
17 MR. GUILD: Before his depo'sition.
18 MR. MILLER: Before his deposition, yes.
19 I did show this to you at your deposition.
20 BY MR. MILLER:
21 O You testified this morning that Mr. Seltmann didn't 22 explain the nature of the audit finding to you.
23 A That's correct.
24 0 And that Mr. Seltmann didn't ask you about the
{} 25 procedures that you were going to be following or Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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v 1 whether Inspection Correction Reports had been issued.
2 Do you recall that?
3 A That's correct.
4 0 Now, I believe you testified on Direct Examination by me 5 that while the audit was in progress, that you generated l 6 one NCR and two ICR's to address the specific 7 out-of-calibration items that had been identified during -
8 the Commonwealth Edison audit; isn't that correct?
9 A For the pin gauge sets?
10 Q For the pin gauge set, the plug gauge set and a crimper; i 11 correct?
12 A Yes, sir.
() 13 Q And you were told, according to your testimony to Mr.
14 Guild this morning, that -- at least you were told that
, 15 there had been some deficiencies in the audit and you l
16 were to conduct a review to see if any more could be 17 found; right?
18 A Not for that. Not for that particular audit, no.
19 0 I don't have a transcript of this morning and I am 20 basing this on my notes, but you knew that you had to l
21 issue one NCR and two ICR's during the course of the 22 audit; correct?
I 23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q And you had also received a training session on the l
25 necessity for generating an ICR once an Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 ;
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1 out-of-calibration tool was found; right?
l 2 A Yes, sir.
j 3 Q Didn't that give you a pretty good clue, Mr. Seeders, as 4 to just what the nature of your review of the tools was f 5 supposed to be?
I 6 A No, sir.
7 Q Did you ask Mr. Seltmann?
8 A No, sir.
9 Q You made no inquiry of him as to what the nature of that i 10 review was supposed to be?
11 A I wasn't asked to do a review at that time.
12 0 I thought you testified this morning, Mr. Seeders, that i
() 13 you had been asked to do a partial review?
14 A Not for the pin -- not for the -- not for the condition
- 15 of the pin gauge sets I wasn't.
16 0 No. I think you were, in fact, asked to do a review of l
17 the records to find out if there were any more i
,' 18 situations like the pin gauge set and the plug gauge 19 sett isn't that right?
20 A I think you are mixed up on the situations. l 21 MR. MILLER: Mr. Seeders, will you answer?
l 22 The answer to my question is, I believe, either a l 23 yes or no.
24 MR. GUILD: He already answered it.
25 THE WITNESS: I believe I already answered.
1 Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. _ _
veneva, Illinois cuise j (312) 232-0262
7807 1 MR. GUILD: You doubt his answer, but he has I 2 answered pretty clearly twice now.
3 BY MR. MILLER:
4 Q So you knew that you had issued the ICR's during the 5 audit, you had received training and you were asked to I
6 do a review to find out --
- 7 A No, sir, I was not.
8 Q Well, you were asked to do a review, were you not, by 9 Mr. Seltmann?
10 A Yes, sir; not as a result of that finding.
l 11 Q Mr. Seeders, again, my notes indicate that Mr. Seltmann 12 informed you only that there were some deficiencies
() 13 found in the audit and you were to conduct a review to 14 see if any more could be found.
15 A Not for that condition.
16 Q For what condition did you believe ou were to be I 17 conducting a review to see if an- more could be found?
18 A I can't recall which instance you are talking about.
19 When the pin gauge -- when the deficiency with the 20 pin gauge set was found, I was asked to write an ICR for 21 the two pins, I was asked to write an NCR for the 22 crimper, I was given a training class. That was the end 23 of that.
24 The training class was the answer to that audit.
l 25 That was it.
Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
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i O .
i 1 Q As far as you knew?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q Then what did you understand when Mr. Seltmann told you, g
4 as you testified this morning, that there had been some 5 deficiencies found in the audit and you were to conduct ,
6 a review to see if any more could be found? What 7 conditions did you believe that he was referring to?
I 8 A I had no idea.
9 Q And you didn't ask him?'
i 10 A No, sir.
1 11 Q Now, I am passing some events.
]
12 You prepared your partial review that has been O 13 received in evidence as A,,11 cane's exhieit 26.
14 Then you testified this morning that Mr. Saklak 2 15 came to you and said that he needed something for a
} i j 16 deadline and you had part of the review. l 1 17 Seltmann asked you how far it had gone and said, 18 "This isn't good enough."
j 19 Do you recall that testimony this morning?
l, 20 A Yes, sir. , ,
21 Q At that point Mr. Seltmann threw the piece of paper or 1
j 22 the papers at you; correct?
I i 23 A That's correct.
24 Q And you just stood there.
25 Now, you have testified for about two days, Mr.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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2 Do you have any better recollection as to the 3 approximate date when this occurred?
4 A No, sir.
5 Q Mr. Seltmann's testimony in this proceeding asserts that 6 this took place on August 14, 1984.
7 Do you have any reason to doubt that that is the
] ,
! 8 date on which it occurred?
l l '9 A No, sir.
j 10 0 I believe you testified this morning that seltmann 11 didn't give you any further instructions at this 12 meeting, that you left the trailer and within a few days
- O 13 after thae Mr. Seitmann to1d you that ehere wou1d have 14 to be a 100 percent review.
15 Is that your presen,t recollection, Mr. Seeders?
16 A Approximate 1y, yes, sir.
l 17 Q And you told him it was impossible, that you needed a 18 lot of help; and he refused your request for assistance; >
19 right?
20 A That's correct.
21 Q Mr. Seeders, at your deposition I asked you a series of
- 22 questions about this and I would like to read them with' 23 you, Page 101 of Mr. Seeders' deposition transcript.
24 "O Well, when you showed Mr. Seltmann your paper 25 work after he had asked you to do the 100
- Sonntaa Reporting Service, Ltd.
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O 1 percent review and he threw it at you, did he 2 re-assign the project to somebody else or were 3 you asked or told to complete it?
4 "A I believe at that time there were three or 5 four other inspectors assigned to do the 100 6 percent audit. I can't remember exactly how
, 7 many; but if I remember correctly, it took 8 three or four inspectors months to complete 9 that audit.
! 10 "O You remember the -- well, my question to you 11 is. Were those other three or four inspectors ;
i 12 assigned at the time that Mr. Seltmann
() 13 rejected your report?
14 "A I think so.
15 "O And were you relieved of your -- did you have 16 any responsibility for the report or did you 17 continue to make a review of the records also?
18 "A No, I think I was relieved at that time of i 19 doing it.
i 20 "O Do you remember the names of the inspectors 21 who were assigned to conclude the review?
22 "A I remember Don Coss was one of them and I 23 think Rich Snyder was one of the people i 24 assigned with Don. I think there were two or 25 three other ones. I can't remember, I can't 4
l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 remember for sure.
2 "Q Were Mr. Cost or Mr. Snyder certified in 3 calibrations?
4 "A No, they were not.
5 "Q Was Myra Sproull asked to pick up on this 6 review?
7 "A As a matter of fact, I think Myra was, yeah."
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I am sorry. "I think Myra,"
9 what?
10 MR. MILLER: "I think Myra was, yeah."
11 MR. GUILD: Is that a foundation for a 12 question, Counsel?
() 13 BY MR. MILLER:
14 0 Mr. Seeders, having looked at and having had me read the 15 transcript of your deposition, is it still your
! 16 recollection that after Mr. Seltmann rejected your 17 partial report and threw it at you, that you were 18 nonetheless required to continue with the 100 percent 19 review?
20 A I can't recall.
21 Q Accepting Mr. Seltmann's testimony that this took place 22 on August 14th -- well, let me withdraw that partial
- 23 question.
! 24 We have established that your partial review has a 25 date on it of July 28, 1984, and that appears in two l
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l 1 places and is the latest date on the collection of
- 2 dccuments that we have marked as Applicant's Exhibit 26.
i 3 Do you recall, Mr. Seeders, doing any work after j 4 July 28, 1984, on the partial review *of the calibration 5 records?
4 6 A I can't recall at this time.
7 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Excuse me. Refresh my 8 recollection.
, 9 When did the witness indicate that he had finished 10 the 100 percent -- his work on the one hundred percent 11 -- review? Had he testified on that?
I 12 MR. MILLER: Your Honor, his testimony was
() 13 really quite vague in response to Mr. Guild's i
14 examination.
15 Mr. Guild attempted to get it within a~ span of time 4
16 as late as up to, I think, September 7th, which was the j 17 date of the partial report from Ms. Sproull and Mr.
) 18 Snyder on their review of the calibration records; and I l 19 hope that this examination by me narrows the date j 20 somewhat further. i 21 JUDGE GROSSMAN: My further question is:
22 What is the significance of whether it was August
- 23 14th or two or three weeks later? Is there any 24 significance?
a 25 MR. MILLER: Well, I think there may be some 1
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(} 1 and I would like'to just explore it for one second.
2 BY MR. MILLER:
i 3 Q So if, in fact, it was August 14th, Mr. Seeders, when
. 4 you were relieved of your responsibility for this
! 5 review, then the workload that you were being asked to i
6 undertake for at least part of the time that Mr.
, 7 Phillips was gone did not include this review of the 8 audit -- of the calibration records, did it?
- 9 A I told you I couldn't recall the specific date.
10 Q Do you have a recollection as to how many weeks Mr.
11 Phillips was gone on his combined funeral leave and 12 vacation?
() 13 A No, sir.
14 Q Mr. Seeders, Mr. Guild examined you about what the 15 phrace, "having other people do your leg work," that was 16 in your August 17th letter.
17 You said that you understood that with respect to 18 calibration inspections, you were being asked to have 19 non-certified personnel go out and. actually conduct the 20 inspections, bring the inspection reports back to you 21 and you would sign them off.
22 . Is that correct?
23 A Yes, sir.
j 24 Q Did Mr. Saklak say anything at all to you.about having l 25 other people do your leg work with respect to receipt Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 inspections?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q All right. And it's a fact, is it not, that after the 4 inspector signs off on the MRR, those documents on which 5 I examined you originally, that the next step is to walk 6 them over to Commonwealth Edison quality assurance; 7 correct?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 0 Is that a function that needs to be done by a Level 2 QC 10 Inspector certified in receipt inspections?
11 A No, sir.
j 12 Q During the week or two that you were doing receipt
() 13 inspections, did you ask anyone to perform that 14 function, that much of the receipt inspection function 15 for you?
16 A No, sir.
17 0 In fact, Mr. Phillips, when he performed his receipt I
18 inspections, did everything in terms of walking the 19 paper work around to as many departments and offices at 20 Comstock and Commonwealth Edison as necessary; is that 21 correct?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q And you did the same thing when you were conducting 24 receipt inspections?
{} 25 A That's correct.
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1 Q 7t your session with Mr. Seese, at which Mr. Seltmann 2 +
was a witness, where you were given a written warning, I 3 think you said that or you testified that Mr. Seese told i
4 you that it really didn't matter what the inspectors 5 said, that is the inspectors that you had asked him to 6 interview.
7 Is that correct?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q Do you remember Mr. Seese telling you that the warning 10 was not the result of what had happened that morning but 11 was, rather, the result of a serious attitude problem 12 that had grown worse over the past weeks?
() 13 A No, sir.
14 0 Mr. Seeders, I think that you testified, again in
- 15 response to Mr. Guild's questions, that during the 16 approximate six-week period from August 17th to the end 17 of September of 1984, you did your calibration 18 inspections and that management never came to you and 19 questioned the quality cf the work.
20 Is that correct?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q During your Direct Examination I showed you a memorandum 1
23 from Mr. Seltmann to Mr. DeWald that is both an 24 attachment to Mr. Seltmann, Seltmann 3, and an 25 attachment to Mr. DeWald's testimony, DeWald 5, and I Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, 1111nois bu144 (312) 232-0262
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()
1 think on Direct Exam! nation by me you agreed that when 2 certain deficiencies occurred in the month of September 3 with respect to the question of whether NCR's or ICR's 4 had been written, you initiated some ICR's, did you not?
5 A What instance are you talking about?
6 Q Some NCR's, I beg your pardon.
7 Why don't you look at what is the -- well, it's the 8 paragraph on Page 2 of Attachment 3 to Mr. Seltmann's' 9 testimony, the one that begins with the words, "Mr. Felz s
10 and I." '
11 MR. GUILD: I am sorry.
I 12 The foundation of this question is that he
() 13 testified previously that in September he issued NCR's?
14 MR. M. ILLER: Mr. Guild, this is a preliminary 15 question.
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I am sorry.
17 What are we looking at now?
18 MR. MILLER: Page 2 of Mr. Seltmann's 19 Septembe r 25, 1984, memorandum to Mr. DeWald.
20 MR. GUILD: Was there a particular portion of 21 that page that counsel had reference to?
22 MR. MILLER: Yes, the paragraph that begins 23 with the words, "Mr. Felz."
24 THE WITNESS: "Mr. Felz."
25 (Indicating.)
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7817 l
l 1 MR. GUILD: Thank you.
I 2 THE WITNESS: Okay.
3 BY MR. MILLER:
4 Q I think you testified -- and I am not sure whether it 5 was in response to Mr. Guild or me -- that you issued 6 NCR's rather than ICR's because Mr. Seltmann wanted 7 NCR's written at that point in time.
8 Is that correct?
9 A Mr. Seltmann felt that we should be issuing NCR's for 10 the calibration program instead of ICR's.
11 I don't know why he wanted that but he -- all of a 12 sudden, h'e -- started pushing that. He felt that NCR's
'( )
13 should be issued instead of ICR's.
14 0 And you do have a recollection that you, in fact, 15 initiated NCR's in September of ~ 1984?
16 MR. GUILD: Objection. It's simply 17 irrelevant.
18 It's not only irrelevant it's completely beyond the 19 scope of anything inquired into.
20 If the month of September is Mr. Miller's entree to 21 now inquire into anything that he wants to inquire into 22 that he neglected to inquire into originally about Mr. j l
23 Seeders' work in the month of September -- l 24 MR. MILLER: Not at all.
25 MR. GUILD: -- I think that's entirely Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 inappropriate and beyond the scope of Redirect.
2 I asked-no questions about issuing NCR's nor did I 3 even raise the issue about Seltmann's direction of NCR's 4 versus ICR's. If anyone raised it, it was Mr. Miller 5 during his original examinstion.
6 He doesn't get a secot.d bite.
7 , MR. MILLER: This is really preliminary, Mr.
8 Chairman.
9 I don't intend to go into the substance of the 10 NCR's at all.
11 BY MR. MILLER:
- 12 0 You do recall Mr. Seltmann telling you that NCR's ought 1 () 13 to be issued for the deficiencies that were found in the 14 calibration program at some point?
15 MR. GUILD: I do object, Mr. Chairman.
16 It's irrelevant and beyond the scope.
17 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Did you indicate that the 18 question was already asked and answered?
19 MR. MILLER: I am not certain that this 20 specific one has been asked and answered.
21 He did indicate previously that Mr. Seltmann at 22 some point in time directed him to issue NCR's.
23 Now I am trying to narrow it down into-the i'
24 September time frame but I can make it broader than
{) 25 that.
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7819 b) s-1 BY MR. MILLER:
2 Q At some point after August 17, 1984, when you wrote your 3 letter to Mr. DeWald, were you directed by Mr. Seltmann 4 to issue NCR's when there were calibration deficiencies?
5 A I can't recall the time frame.
6 Q Do you remember whether you, in fact, issued any NCR's?
7 MR. GUILD: I object, Mr. Chairman.
8 It's not relevant. It's beyond the scope of proper 9 Redirect.
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN: We will overrule it. We 11 will allow the question.
12 A I remember issuing some NCR's that Mr. Seltmann directed
() 13 me to issue.
14 I can't remember -- I don't recall the times.
15 , BY MR. MILLER:
16 Q Okay. You testified earlier in response to questions 17 from Mr. Guild that the reasons that ICR's may not have 18 been issued when an out-of-calibration condition was 19 noted was that, in effect, you had issued an ICR, sent 20 the torque wrench off site for, calibration, it had come 21 back from calibration off site, you questioned the 1
22 effectiveness of the calibration, sent it over to l l
23 Phillips Getschow.
24 Low and behold, it was out of calibration according 25 to Phillips Getschow; and you simply did not issue a Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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() 1 second NCR -- ICR. I am sorry.
2 A That's correct.
3 O And that if you had just been given an opportunity to 4 explain, that may very well have provided an explanation 5 to Mr. Seltmann as to why there was no ICR written.
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q Well, when you were asked by Mr. Seltmann to prepare 8 these NCR's for out-of-calibration conditions, did you 9 initiate any conversation with him in which you 10 explained what the state of your records were with 11 respect to these out-of-calibration torque wrenches?
12 A I can't remember a conversation with him.
( ,
13 MR. MILLER: Could I have just a minute here?
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Sure.
15 BY MR. MILLER: .
16 Q Mr. Seeders, I would like to show you a -- well, first 17 of all, when a tool had been sent out for repair and 18 then was sent over to Phillips Getschow for calibration, 19 how, if at all, did you record that fact on the Form 20 77's for each tool?
21 A I -- I can't recall. I don't think I was recording 22 sending them over to Phillips Getschow.
23 Q Did you indicate sometimes that -- what did the words, 24 "on hold," mean?
25 A That meant that that wrench had a hold tag on it and it I
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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("
b) 1 was not to be sent back out to the field.
2 0 I would like to show you a document that, I believe, is 3 in evidence as Applicant's Exhibit 30.
4 I represent to you that these are copies of Form 5 77's, and I would like to show you the second page of 6 the exhibit.
4 7 We will wait until everybody gets there.
8 MR. GUILD: Mr. Chairman, I would ask that 9 counsel be required to demonstrate both relevance and 10 that this is within the proper scope of re-examination.
11 He did not inquire of the witness about any of 12 these documents in his initial exeraination, nor did I,
() 13 and I don't believe he can properly pursue the matter 14 without making some other showing that it is within the 15 proper scope.
16 MR. MILLER: The only thing I want to ask the 17 witness, your Honor, is whether he can tell from 18 examining the Form 77's -- and he is free to examine 19 whatever else there is in the exhibit, although I do not 20 make any representation that it is a complete tool 21 folder -- as to whether or not this is one of the tools
, 22 that fit the condition that he described, that is one a
123 that was sent off site, came back and was then sent over 24 to Phillips petschow for calibration and no ICR was v
{)
25 written. 4, 6 Sonrsag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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(
l A I have no idea.
2 BY MR. MILLER:
3 0 You can't tell from looking at this? I l
4 A No, sir.
5 Q What other records would you have to'look at, Mr.
6 Seeders?
I 7 A You wouldn't need any other records.
8 Q If I understand your testimony, you can't tell from 9 looking at the Form 77's whether the tool has been sent 10 off site for calibration and then sent again to Phillips 11 Getschow for calibration; is that correct?
12 A The entry has been made. This tool was out of
() 13 calibration on 9/15/84.
14 That tool would remain on hold with a hold tag on 15 it until it was recertified. ,
16 The entry would be made on the Form 33 that that 17 tool was recertified and the new calibration due date.
18 MR. GUILD: I am sorry. Where is the witness 19 referring?
20 MR. MILLER: The witness is referring to the 21 second and the first page of Exhibit 30.
22 MR. GUILD: Is there a 9/15 date on the 23 document?
24 MR. MILLER: Yes.
25
{}. (Indicating.)
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1 THE WITNESS: 9/15 of '84.
2 BY MR. MILLER:
3 Q Mr. Seeders, do you know if the 9/15 date that you 4 referred to was put on the Form 77 on or about September 5 15th?
6 A It would appear so.
7 Q And there is also an entry for June 29, 1984; correct?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q Does that indicate that as of June 29, 1984, the tool 10 was in calibration or can you tell from looking at the 11 records?
12 A The June 29, 1984, date means that that is the new due
() 13 date for calibration.
14 Q Can you tell from looking at the forms that are in front 15 of you whether or not there was a calibration check 16 performed on that date?
17 A The calibration -- the actual calibration -- of the 18 wrench is performed on my signature date.
19 Okay?
20 Q Yes, sir. If you will just answer my question, though.
l 21 Can you tell whether or not there was a calibration 22 performed on June 29, 1984?
23 A Yes, sir, right here. I 24 (Indica ting . )
25 JUDGE COLE: What are you pointing out, Mr.
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1 Seeders? l l
2 THE WITNESS: I am pointing at my signature '
l 3 and date.
, 4 JUDGE GROSSMAN: In the third column?
5 THE WITNESS: In the third column.
6 BY MR. MILLER:
7 0 It kind of straddles the columns?
8 A Yes, sir, it's kind of hard to make out.
9 That's when the wrench was actually calibrated.
10 0 Can you tell by looking at the records when the next 11 calibration duc date should have been after June 29, 12 1984?
( 13 A This, according to these, according tc my records, this 14 wrench was never returned to the field.
15 Q After June 29th?
16 A Yes, sir.
a 17 Q How can you tell that?
18 A Because there is no new due date. A sticker was never 19 placed on that wrench with a due date.
20 0 Is there anything that indicates that the wrench was out 21 of calibration as of June 29, 1984?
22 A No, sir.
23 Q Do you know why it wasn't returned to the field then?
24 A No, sir, I don't.
(} 25 0 And the records don't tell you, do they?
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1 A From those records I have right there, there is no 2 indication of why it wasn't returned to the field.
3 Q I would like to turn now again to ,the meeting with Mr.
4 DeWald from which you were transferred to Comstock 5 Engineering.
6 I believe you testified in response to questions by 7 Mr. Guild that Mr. DeWald didn't show you the letter 8 which we have marked as Applicant's Exhibit 94, the cn?
9 that has this on it?
10 (Indicating.)
11 A That's correct. >
r 12 Q Now, Mr. Seeders, at your deposition I showed you
() 13 Applicant's Exhibit 94, which then bore the --
14 MR. GUILD: 21.
15 BY MR. MILLER:
16 0 -- exhibit number of Deposition Exhibit No. 21 and I 17 asked you these questions and you gave these answers -- 1 18 MR. GUILD: Can you give me a page reference? '
19 MR. MILLER: Yes, 260.
I 20 BY MR. MILLER:
21 0 -- as f oll ows :
22 "O I show you a document marked as Seeders 23 - Deposition Exhibit 21 and ask you if that is 24 the document that you were shown by Mr. DeWald l 25 on the 28th?
O Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 "A Yes, sir.
2 "Q- Okay. ' Did he ask you to read it?
3 "A Yes, sir.
4 "Q Did it have the pencil markings on the first 5 page, the words " void" and so on?
6 "A No, sir."
7 Now, having looked at your deposition, Mr. Seeders, i 8 do you now recall that Mr. DeWald did, in-fact, show you 9 Applicant's Exhibit 94?
10 A If I said he did at that time, he did.
11 I didn't recall at this time.
12 Q Then you said in response to Mr. Guild's-questions this l () 13 morning that you explained the calibration situation to 14 Mr. DeWald, and by that time Mr. Seltmann was in the 15 room, and they were shocked. i 16 Do you remember that testimony? You explained to 17 them how things went off site for repair and came back i
18 and you sent them out again and so on?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 0 Once again, Mr. Seeders, at your deposition, you were 21 asked these questions and -- l 22 MR. GUILD: How about a page, please? s 23 MR. MILLER: 261.
24 BY MR. MILLER:
2 25 0 -- gave these answers:
] )
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7827 l
- ()
1 "O Again referring to this memorandum, after you 2 read it, what did Mr. DeWald say to you?
3 "A After I read it Mr. DeWald indicated to me I ,
l 4 had no choice. I had to take a transfer.
5 "I asked Mr. DeWald if he was saying to 6 me either transfer or be fired. He would not 7 answer me.
8 "I asked him again, 'Are you telling me I 9 have to take a transfer or be fired?' He 10 nodded his head. I never did get an answer 11 out of him.
12 "O Which way did he nod his head, yes or no or
() 13 shrug his shoulders or what?
14 "A It was hard to tell.
15 "O Well, what did you?
16 "A At that point he indicated to me he was doing 17 me a' favor by transferring me and that I 18 should consider my family; and I indicated to 19 him that that was indeed -- that that indeed 20 was my first concern and since I had no 1
21 choice, I felt I had no choice, I would take l
22 the transfer.
23 "O Okay. So let me just understand the sequence, 24 if I might.
25 Did he show you both memorandums?
)
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, l 1
1 "A No, sir. !
l 2 "O Just the one," and I represent that it was 3 Applicant's Exhibit 947 1 4 "A 'Just this.
5 "O And then said as an option, too, did he say, 6 quote, instead of terminating you, we have 7 arranged for a transfer to Comstock 8 Engineering? ,
9 "A He told me he was doing me a favor by i 10 transferring me and that I should take the l 11 transfer; and I indicated to him if I didn't i
12 have a family, I would have.
( 13 "Q What?
14 "A Have responded in a little bit different way.
15 "O How would you have responded if you didn't 16 have a family?
17 "A I don't know, because I have a family.
18 "Q Well, would you have gotten physical with Mr. !
l 19 DeWald? l 20 "A I don't know. I 1
21 "O So you were angry?
22 "A I was a little upset.
23 "O Did you seek out Mr. Schulz at that time," and so 24 forth. l
, I 4
25 Now, having looked at -- l
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O 1 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Excuse me.
2 What was the other memorandum that was referred to?
3 MR. MILLER: That is the one that we have 4 marked as Applicant's Exhibit 95.
5 Mr. Seeders testified in this hearing, as he did in 6 his deposition, that he did not see that memorandum.
7 That is the one transferring Mr. Seeders to engineering.
8 BY MR. MILLER:
9 0 Mr. Seeders, having looked at this deposition
- 10 transcript, do you still recall that you discussed the
, 11 calibrations situation in terms of the repair of f 12 out-of-calibration torque wrenches and the fact that no
() 13 second ICR was wr'itten with Mr. Seltmann or Mr. DeWald 14 on the day you were terminated?
15 A Yes, sir.
! 16 Q I think you also testified in response to Mr. Guild's 17 examination today that there was no reference to -- in 18 this conversation to -- Mr. DeWald having talked to 19 Commonwealth Edison Company and the NRC.
i i 20 ,
Do you recall that testimony?
1 21 A I am sorry. I -- would you please repeat that?
22 Q Surely. I would be happy to.
l 23 Do you recall that this morning you testified in l 24 response to questions from Mr. Guild that in this
{) 25 conversation in which you were transferred, that there l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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. 7830 1
1 was no reference to Mr. DeWald having talked the l 1
2 situation over with Commonwealth Edison and the NRC? l 3 A That's correct. 1 i
4 Q Again, in the deposition, Page 262, again referring to 5 the interview when you were transferred:
6 "Q Did you seek out Mr. Schulz at that time?
7 "A No, sir.
[ 8 "Q Did he talk to you at all?
9 "A Mr. DeWald informed me that he had been in 10 close contact with the NRC and with CECO and 11 the decision had already been made and there l
12 was absolutely nothing I could do about it.
( 13 So my only -- my only two choices was to 3
14 either take the transfer immediately.
1 15 "I asked him if I could have the weekend j
16 to think about it. He said, 'No. You make 17 your decision right now. Either take the 18 transfer or you are fired.'
1 19 "O Oh, so he did, in fact, tell you that it was 20 take the transfer or be fired? :
- 21 "A He finally -- finally told me that. Your only f
22 option was to take the transfer now or be 23 fired."
24 Having looked at this portion of the deposition j 25 transcript, does that refresh your recollection that Mr.
[}
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V 1 DeWald did, in fact, state to you in that interview when 2 you were transferred that he had been in contact with 3 Commonwealth Edison Company and the NRC?
4 A I don't recall the conversation at this time.
5 If I said that in my deposition, evidently, that's
- 6 what happened.
7 Q I think you also testified in response to Mr. Guild's 8 examination this morning that you, in effect, told Mr.
9 Schulz to drop the NRC investigation, that you feared 10 for your job and --
11 A No, sir, that's not what I said.
i 12 0 Well, did you testify in response to a question by Mr.
() 13 Guild that Mr. Schulz never told you about the 14 Department of Labor or about your rights?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q And at your deposition, Mr. Seeders, yo.u were asked 17 these questions and gave these answers at Page 158.
18 "O Well, in fact, you sent Mr. Schulz a copy of 19 your August 17th letter, Seeders Deposition 20 Exhibit 13?
21 "A Yes, sir.
22 "O What did Mr. Schulz respond to you, if l l
23 anything?
24 "A Mr. Schulz read my letter and he indicated he i
{} 25 would look into it.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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7832 C) 1 "O Did he say anything to you about fear of 2 reprisal or what your rights were under the 3 law?
4 "A I indicated to Mr. Schulz at that time that I 5 figured I would probably be fired for it. He 6 said that -- and he said that under the law 7 and under NRC regulations I could not be fired 8 for submitting the letter to the NRC.
1 9 "O Did you believe Mr. Schulz when he told you 10 that?
. 11 "A Yes.
1 i .
12 "Q Did you know of your rights to pursue a
() 13 proceeding before the Department of Labor if 14 you felt that the transfer was retaliatory for 15 bringing these concerns to'the attention of 1
16 the NRC?
I 17 "A Yes."
18 Now, having looked at this portion of the
't 19 transcript of your deposition, Mr. Seeders, does that 20 refresh your recollection that Mr. Schulz, in fact, told 21 you about your rights in terms of reprisal for having 22 written the August 17th letter?
4 23 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Excuse me. There were a few
] 24 things mentioned in your original question.
i
() 25 One was whether Mr. Schulz told him of his right to Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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.1 go to the DOL.
2 MR. MILLER: Well, the --
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Another 'was whether -- in i I l
- 4 the deposition whetfer i -- turning a letter over to the 5 NRC subjected him to retaliation; but now you are asking 6 him something different about his having written that l
7 letter in the first instance. I just want to clarify a 8 confusion that may exist.
9 Now, I don't know. Go ahead. Ask your question 10 again.
i 11 MR. MILLER: Well, again, these are my notes 12 of the witness's testimony this morning, I checked it
- O 13 with the reporter and it was, I believe, his testimony 14 -- and he affirmed it this afternoon-- that Mr. Schulz
)
15 never told him about the Department of Labor or of his 16 rights.
17 While the Department of Labor was not mentioned 18 specifically in the questions that I had asked him in 19 his deposition, I did ask him the question dealing with 20 a conversation that he had and whether or not there was 21 anything discussed in there, in that conversat'on, i about 22 what Seeders' rights were under the law.
23 The witness responded at that time that Mr. Schulz 24 told him that, under the law and under NRC regulations, 25 he could not be fired for submitting a letter to the Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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j 1 NRC.
2 MR. GUILD: The question I asked, Mr.
3 Chairman, is whether Mr. Schulz informed him of his 4 right to file a Department of Labor complaint to contest 5 his transfer or termination; and the answer I heard was
{ 6 no.
7 Whether that was correct or not, I am not certain; 8 but that was my question this morning and the answer 9 that I recall this morning.
A 10 It is a different question, indeed, than what ,
11 appears in the transcript of the deposition.
12 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, if there is a pending f ) 13 question --
14 MR. MILLER: I don't think there is.
15 Is there, Mr. Reporter? l I 16 (The record was thereupon read by the i '
17 Reporte r . )
L
- 18 JUDGE GROSSMAN
- I think that is misleading.
19 I don't think what you read in the deposition suggested 20 that.
21 What you read in the deposition said that he 22 couldn't be retaliated against for bringing the letter
! 23 to the NRC, not for having written it.
- 24 MR. MILLER
- Oh, all right.
t 25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Well, I didn't think it was
[
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7835 i
4
~
C) l -fair to suggest to the witness that he contradicted j 2 himself.
3 Now, you can ask him -- everybody has heard what 4 has happened so far. You can ask the witness whatever 5 question you want now that he knows that he didn't :
6 directly contradict himself and find out what answer is 7 appropriate.
8 BY MR. MILLER:
i 9 Q Having now listened both to the transcript of your 10 deposition and the colloquy, Mr. Seeders, do you have a 4
11 present recollection as to having a conversation with f
12 Mr. Schulz in which you discussed with him what your
() 13 rights were with respect to submitting your August 17th l 14 letter to the NRC?
15 A My best recollection is that Mr. Schulz asked me if I
- 16 knew of my rights as far as NRC regulations, and I
- 17 answered that I did. l 18 There was never any discussion of the National 1
I l 19 Labor Relations Board.
I j 20 Q Do you recall Mr. Schulz telling you that under the law l 21 and under NRC regulations you could not be fired for 22 submitting a letter to the NRC?
23 A No, sir.
24 0 When you say the N. L. R. B., you mean the Department of 25 Labor?
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1 A Yes, sir.
2 O I believe you testified in response to question from Mr.
3 Berry that after August 17th Mr. DeWald called you in l 4 and asked you to re-word your August 17th letter. ;
5 Is that right?
6 A I believe the way he put it was, was there a different 7 -- was there a different way I could word my letter?
8 That maybe I had misunderstood some of the problems at 9 the company.
10 Q How soon after your August 17th letter was this 11 interview, do you recall?
12 A I can't remember dates. It seems like it was a week, a
() 13 week, maybe two weeks later.
14 Q Let me see if I can go futher.
, 15 At your deposition, again, you were asked by Mr.
16 Guild -- I guess this was examination by me, at Page 383 17 of the transcript:
18 "O I believe you stated in response to questions 19 from Mr. Guild that Mr. DeWald asked you to 20 rewrite your August 17, 1984, letter?
21 "A Yes. l l
22 "O When did Mr. DeWald do that, how soon after he 1 23 received it? ,
24 - "A That would be the Friday before the 1st of 25 Oct obe r . "
O a Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 Now, does that refresh your recollection as to when 2 this request was made?
3 A The Friday before? I can't --
4 Q That would have been the day that you were being 5 transferred, Mr. Seeders.
6 A The Friday before the day I was being transferred?
7 Q No. The Friday of the day that you were transferred.
8 That is correct, isn't it?
9 MR. GUILD: As I recall, the previous 10 testimony was --
11 MR. MILLER: September 28th.
12 MR. GUILD: -- it was the last Friday in 13 September on which Mr. DeWald transferred you.
14 A That would have- been the Friday before the 1st of 1 l
15 Octobe r .
l 16 MR. MILLER: Yes. If I said something else, 17 ,
I apologize.
18 THE WITNESS: That's what I just said. l l
19 BY MR. MILLER:
20 0 Is your recollection refreshed that is, in fact, the 1 21 date on which Mr. DeWald made the request?
22 A I can't recall the date.
i 23 Q Do you remember whether or not Mr. DeWald led you to 24 believe that if you rewrote your letter, you wouldn't be
{} 25 transferred?
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7838 l
(
l A That was never discussed.
2 Q Did he point to any specific portion of the letter as
! 3 being particularly misleading, in his opinion, or i
4 something specific that should be re-worded?
!' 5 A No, sir.
6 Q I think in response to questions, again, by Mr. Berry, 7 you were asked about whether, in your opinion, it was 8 improper that management asked you to train the new t
9 inspectors.
^l 10 I think your response was that we felt that it was 1 i
J 11 ,
-- I don't know if you used this word but not proper or 12 unfair in some way to be asked to train new inspectors.
() 13 who were making more than you.
14 Is that a paraphrase of your response, sir?
15 A I believe I testified that the new inspectors were hired 16 ,
at a much higher rate than most of the other inspectors. '
17 We were expected to train them in several areas to 1
- 18 justify the high salaries that Comstock had offered i
j 19 them.
20 0 When you say "we," who are you referring to besides l!
21 yourself?
]
i 22 A I am referring to the veteran inspectors that were 23 ordered to train these. new people, i
- 24 0 This was the subject of some discussion among the 1
25 veteran inspectors, wasn't it?
i t
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7839 l l
CE) i 1 A That's true.
2 Q There was, in fact, quite a bit of resentment of the 3 fact that you were being asked to train these 4 individuals; right?
5 A We thought it was unfair to ask us to train them in 6 several areas while we weren't getting any training at 7 all.
8 Q Well, in fact, you had gotten training in one area, 9 hadn't you, since the $12 an hour salary boost; that is, 10 you received your material receipt inspection 11 certification some time after the 50 cent an hour 12 certification policy had gone into effect?
()' 13 A I believe right after that went into effect I got my 14 receiving certs.
15 0 And the resentment was really directed -- you felt that 16 it was really unfair of management to be asking this of 17 the veteran QC Inspectors; correct?
18 A Well, we were lied to, so right off the bat we felt it 19 was unfair.
20 0 When you say, " lied to," you are referring to the fact 21 that you had been assured that no one was going to be 22 hired on at more than $12 an hour start and, low and 23 behold, a sheet shows up in the Xerox machine that 24 indicates an inspector is being hired for $14?
25 A That's correct. .
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7840 1 Q That made everybody pretty angry, didn't it?
2 A That's correct.
3 0 It was a topic of conversation among the veteran 4 inspectors?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 The secretary that left the Xerox sheet in the --
7 the paper in the Xerox machine was fired right after 8 that. That also added to the resentment.
9 Q The fact that she was fired?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q And it's also correct that adding to the tension between 12 Comstock management and inspectors was that there was a
- ( 13 union organizing effort underway at that point in time, 14 too, wasn't there?
15 A I don't recall that existing at'that time.
16 Q At some point prior to the time you were transferred, 17 union organizing effort was underway --
18 MR. GUILD: Objection, Mr. Chairman.
19 We now are, indeed, plowing an entirely new l 20 subject. Mr. Miller certainly had free opportunity to 1
21 pursue this, his interest in this area, when he first 22 had the witness; and he didn't. .
23 MR. MILLER: No, your Honor.
24 The witness has testified that there was pressure
{} 25 to get the new inspectors trained, that they were l
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1 expected to train them, that this was a source of 2 resentment.
3 I will abide by the Chair's ruling, obviously; but 4 I don't believe it is outside the scope, a subject that 5 was opened up by Mr. Berry. ,
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN: What does that have to do 7 with the Union organizing effort?
8 MR. MILLER: That he has identified a cause 9 of management resentment.
10 I am just asking, really, as a closing question, 11 whether there were any others at this point in time. I 12 don't intend to pursue this.
13 JUDGE GROSSMAU: Well, I thought it was out 14 of the scope when you asked that first question. I 15 figured I would let you go one question, which you have 16 already gone.
17 .So the objection is sustained.
18 BY MR. MILLER:
19 Q Because you felt it was unfair, Mr. Seeders, to be asked 20 to train these new inspectors with their high rates of 21 salary, you weren't exactly personally enthusiastic i 22 about conducting that training, were you? j 1
23 A I don't understand your question.
24 0 Well, did you willingly train these new inspectors, who l
25 you said were being hired on at wages more than you were l
[}
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7842
()
1 making, in order to justify their salaries?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q There was never any resistance on your part to training 4 these new inspectors?
5 A That is correct.
6 Q Now, in response to questions from Mr. Guild, you 7 testified about Mr. DeWald being. interested in the 8 number of inspections and the saying that DeWald is 9 pushing numbers again.
10 Do you recall that line of examination?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 0 And that was in the summer of 1984; correct?
() 13 A Correct.
14 Q And you believed that it was a result of pressure from 15 Commonwealth Edison Company; correct? l 16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q And that was a matter that wa,s a common subject of 18 discussion among the inspectors whenever Mr. DeWald 19 would make these statements that were being interpreted l l
20 as pushing for numbers; correct? l l
21 A That's correct. '
22 Q You had a conversation with Mr. Gieseker and Mr. Tapella
! 23' in August of 1984 in which they assured you that quality 24 was Commonwealth Edison's concern.
25 Do you recall the --
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() l 1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q. When you heard that directly from Mr. Gieseker and Mr.
3 Tapella, did you tell any of your fellow inspectors that 4 that was, in fact, Edison's position? i 5 A I can't recall ever mentioning that.
! 6 Q I-think you said that -- very early in Mr. Guild's 7 examination he talked to you about a conversation that 8 you had with Mr. Coss and that Mr. Coss was reprimanded 9 by Mr. Seese as a result of talking to you.
10 Did you understand that Mr. Coss got a written ,
l 11 warning?
12 A No, sir.
13 Q Mr. Seese just told him, in effect, to stop' talking; 14 correct?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q Do you know whether Mr. Coss had a reputation for 17 z talking, not just to you but to anybody else that he 18 could strike up a conversation with?
19 A No, sir.
20 0 I think you said that, as far as you were concerned, the 21 fact that Mr. Coss was talked.to by Mr. Seese after he 22 was-seen having a conversation with you meant that you 23 were still'being harassed.
24 Mr. Seeders, the question is: Has that incident,
! 25 the fact that you know that Mr. Seese was talked to -- I
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1 am sorry -- the fact that you know that Mr. Seese talked 2 to Mr. Coss, has that had any affect on the way in which 3 you performed your functions as Assistant Field Engineer 4 for Comstock?
5 A No, sir. I think I am used to it by now.
6 Q So you are still doing the same conscientious 7 professional job that you believe you have always done; 8 correct?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q Now, Mr. Guild asked you about the inspection reports by 11 Mr. DeWald where there was more than a thousand welds on 12 a single document.
() 13 A Yes, sir.
14 0 You indicated that there was an individual named Ted 15 King who was doing the review of those reports.
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q To your knowledge, is Mr. King still employed?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q At Comstock?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q As a Level 2 QC Inspector?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 0 I see. I would like you to turn, just briefly, to 24 Applicant's Exhibit 84. It's the Pyrocon thermometer 25 documents.
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1 A I don't think my 84 is their 84. l 2 O Zou don't have it?
3 A I am seeing 84 here; but it's -- what did I do? ;
4 Q Someone mismarked a document, that's what happened. I 5 don't know whether it's me or you.
6 We will use your pile. You didn't have any 7 responsibility.
8 A I didn't mark them.
9 Q I know you didn't.
10 MR. GUILD: You can use mine, if you would 11 like.
12 MR. MILLER: Thanks.
() 13 BY MR. MILLER:
14 Q On examination by Mr. Guild you theorized that because 15 there are different dates in ,the standard number line in 16 each of the Form 23-A's that follow the first sheet of 17 this exhibit, that there were other -- there may have 18 been other standards that you were using to calibrate _
19 those stationary rod ovens.
20 Isn't it a fact, Mr. Seeders, that every one of 21 those calibrations, every one of those dates in the 22 standard number line is exactly 90 days after the date 23 of calibration that appears for the individual rod oven 24 itself? j 25 A 1 don't understand.
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%) a 1 Q Well, let's look at the second sheet. The date of 2 calibration is shown as May 15, 1984. The calibration 3 due date for the standard number is shown as August 15, 1
4 1984; correct?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q All right?
1 7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q And then if we turn to the following sheets, we will see ;
- l 9 that there is a 90-day interval on each of them, 10 Fe'bruary 17th to May 17th, March 1st to June 1st; 11 correct?
12 A Okay.
() 13 Q How many thermometers were there that you used for 14 calibrating these stationary rod ovens? ,
15 A Approximately a dozen.
16 Q How often were the stationary rod ovens calibrated?
17 A The stationary rod ovens were calibrated on a 18 three-month frequency.
19 0 It's such that you simply wrote down the next l
20 calibration due date next to the standard number rather 21 than indicating the calibration number -- I am sorry.
22 That you wrote down the next calibration due date 23 for the rod oven itself rather than writing down the 24 calibration due date for the Pyrocon thermometer?
25 A It's possible.
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1 Q Mr. Seeders, you were shown your affidavit, an affidavit 2 that you authorized but did not execute, by Mr. Guild;
, 3 and Mr. Guild called your specific attention to 4 Paragraph 4 of the affidavit, which speaks about your 5 discussions with at least ten Comstock QC Inspectors on 6 the specific question of testifying about harassment and 7 intimidation in this proceeding.
8 It's a fact, is it not, Mr. Seeders, that, as you 9 sit here today, you can't recall the name of one of 10 those inspectors?
j 11 A That's correct.
12 O In the preceding paragraph, your unexecuted affidavit 13 says, "I have also had extensive discussions with at 14 least 30 other Comstock QC Inspectors who have knowledge 15 of harassment and intimidation by Comstock management."
16 It's also a fact, as you sit here today, Mr.
17 Seeders, that you don't recall the name of one of those 18 30 QC Inspectors?
19 A Wait a minute. I am -- I missed your meaning on this 20 now.
21 I -- I could sit here and give you names of other 22 inspectors that I discussed the problems with Comstock j 23 with that I was referring to in this affidavit. -
)
1 24 Q You can, I see. Well --
25 A I can't -- I can't recall. I couldn't recall exactly
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7848 C:) l i 1 the ten that I was referring to here or the 30 that I I l
- j. 2 was referring to. I 3 MR. MILLER: May I have just a minute, your 4 Honor? !
5 JUDGE GROSSMAN: All right. Excuse me, Mr.
l 6 Miller. Is that an exhibit in this case?
7 MR. MILLER: It is attached to the pleading. l 8 It is attached to the motion to admit. !
9 MR. GUILD: Mr. Chairman, I treat it as part l 10 of the record. I 11 I don't mean to, by not offering it as an exhibit, i 12 not include it in the record. It has been examined i
() 13 from, and the witness did authenticate it.
14 I assume that, as attached to a pleading, it is i
a 15 available for reference and is part of the record.
l 16 JUDGE GROSSMAN: To' prove-the contents?
j 17 MR. . GUILD: No, I didn't mean to offer it to i 18 prove the contents.
19 We had a discussion about it at the time and the 20 witness did take the stand and I am satisfied with his 21 testimony in the flesh.
, 22 But if there is any dispute about this being the i 23 document that was authorized by_ the witness at the time 24 it was presented by me to him, him on the witness stand
() 25 authenticating it and stating that it is true and i Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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4 1 correct to the best of his belief as he sits here today, 1
i 2 I will be happy to offer it in evidence.
3 I don't mean to offer it to prove the truth of the 4 matters contained in the document.
5 JUDGE GROSSMAN: If that is the case, why are 6 we examining?
7 MR. MILLER: Your Honor, if I could just 8 consult my notes, I believe that I am probably complete.
9 MR. GUILD: Mr. Chairman, if I could, while 10 Mr. Miller is doing that, Mr. Saklak is here.
11 I anticipate there will be some more questi'ning o 12 from the Board and parties of Mr. Seeders. The hour is
() 13 approaching 4:00 o' clock.
14 I do anticipate an opening as well that probably 1
15 won't take the entire time but we will just' barely get I
16 started with the witness, in any event.
1 17 May I excuse him?
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN: You are saying it wouldn't 19 be worthwhile starting with Mr. Saklak and you want to l
20 ,
excuse him for the day?
21 MR. GUILD: Yes, sir.
22 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Is there any problem with
)
i 23 that?
24 (No response.).
25 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Why don't you do that?.
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1 MR. GUILD: Yes, I will, your Honor.
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN: We will take five minutes 3 for Mr. Miller to review his notes.
4 You want a recess before you start, don't you?
5 Is there any objection to having a recess now, with 6 the understanding that Mr. Miller won't take an 7 extensive period of time?
8 MR. GUILD: Not at all.
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN: How tauch do you estimate, 10 Mr. Miller?
11 MR. MILLER: I believe I am really finished, 12 your Honor.
- ( 13 JUDGE GROSSMAN
- All right. Why don't we 14 take 15 minutes now.
15 (WHEREUPON, a recess was had, after which 16 the hearing,was resumed as follows:)
17 JUDGE GROSSMAN: If everyone is ready to 18 start --
19 MR. MILLER: I have no further questions, 20 your Honor.
21 JUDGE COLE: I just have a few questions, Mr.
22 Seeders.
23 BOARD EXAMINATION 24 BY JUDGE COLE 25 Q From your viewpoint, is there any difference between an
[}
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,, 2 A Yes, sir.
3 0 What is that difference, sir?
4 A An ICR is an Inspection Correction Report, which is 5 considered to be an in-house document, that is, that 6 Comstock initiates and answers the problem within the 7 company.
8 An NCR is a Nonconformance Report, which, although 9 it's initiated at the company at Comstock, it must go to 10 the client, which in this case is CECO; and, oftentimes, 11 they disposition the -- in other words, they -- they are 12 the final answer to that, to that document.
O
\ 13 Q All right, sir. Other than the time that Mr. Seltmann 14 had stated his preference to write NCR's rather than an 15 ICR on a certain type of problem, do you have any 16 guide ~ lines that you would use or that were provided to 17 you for the issuance of an ICR versus an NCR or vice 18 versa?
19 A My understanding of the procedure is that it's not 20 necessary to generate an NCR on out-of-calibration 21 tools, which -- the procedure calls for an ICR because 22 it's always the same condition.
23 The ICR is actually generated for the work in the 24 field that that out-of-calibration condition was --
{} 25 happened at that time.
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1 There is nothing for the client to do with that 2 condition other than to say, "The work in the field has 3 to be rechecked f or that calibration period." There 4 isn't any other condition that can happen with that, 5 with this, with this discipline, once --
6 Q So based upon your views, sir, you could foresee no 7 condition in which you would write an NCR rather than an 8 ICR unless you were specifically instructed otherwise?
9 A That is correct.
10 Q All right, sir. Thank you.
11 Now, for' CECO audits and audit findings are any 12 ICR's issued or are they only NCR's?
() 13 A Usually for a CECO audit, the client wants to make sure 14 that this condition has been answered and taken care of, l 15 so in a lot of cases NCR's are generated for the client.
i 16 0 Would there be any instances where in findings of CECO 17 audits ICR's would be issued rather than NCR's?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q What would be the criteria that would be used to 20 determine whether it be an NCR or ICR?
21 A Usually we would go by the procedure unless the client 22 otherwise specified.
23 0 What does that mean, sir?
24 A Well, in some cases the client would ask for an NCR, so 25 they could really take a good look at the situation and Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. _
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V 1 they would come up with a disposition in that case.
2 Q Okay. Other than that, an ICR would be issued?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q All right. Thank you.
5 Mr. Seeders, at transcript Page 7548 down at the 6 bottom of the page you indicated that you always got 7 along with Mr. Saklak. I will quote your words here.
8 "I always got a long with Mr. Saklak real 9 well. I never had any problems with him at 10 all." ,
l 11 A That's correct.
12 Q And you recall saying that?
( 13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q You remember the letter that you wrote on August 17th.
15 I don't know whether you have a copy of it with r
16 you. This is a copy that you could use.
17 A Okay.
18 0 I am interested in the last sentences of each of' the 19 first two paragraphs.
I 20 Could you read the -- let's take the first 21 paragraph first, the last sentence of the first 22 paragraph. .
23 A It says, "For at least the last six months we have 24 been subject to endless harassment and
/~T 25 intimidation by Comstock management to justify
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7854 1 the incompetence and disregard for all company 2 inspectors."
3 0 All right, sir. I assume that the "we" includes you?
4 A I am mainly speaking about speaking for other inspectors 5 in that.
6 0 What you are saying, sir, is that you are not including 7 yourself among the "we" in that sentence?
8 A Not -- not -- not for the whole six-month period, no, 9 sir.
)
l 10 Q For what period are you including yourself, sir?
11 A Oh, I couldn't really be specific with --
12 Q All right, sir. When you indicate that you have been
( 13 subject to endless harassment and intimidation by 14 Comstock's management, to whom are you referring, sir?
15 A The management at that time, Mr. DeWald, Mr. Seese, Mr.
16 Seltmann, Mr. Saklak.
17 0 All right, sir. And have you been subjected to any 18 harassment by -- other than the first two, couple of 19 weeks of August, have you been subjected to any 20 harassment by the other individuals you mentioned, Mr.
21 Seese, Mr. Saklak?
22 A Before that period?
23 Q For the six-month period you are talking about.
24 A No, sir.
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I
! l l for you with the exception of the first couple of weeks j 2 of August?
i 1 3 A No, sir.
4 Q All right, sir. Let's look at the last sentence of the i 5 second paragraph.
l 6 A It says, "I have been harassed and intimidated as i 7 to the quantity of my work and to the i
8 willingness to do anything management 9 required, never the quality of my work."
l 10 Q All right, sir. Now, to whom are you referring there as ,
11 to who has been harassing and intimidating you, sir?
12 A I believe I was referring to Mr. Saklak, Mr. Seltmann.
) 13 Q And that pertains to the two weeks in August, roughly, i
14 that time period just before you wrote the letter?.
15 .A Yes, sir.
i 16 JUDGE COLE: All right. Thank you. That is 17 all I have.
.j 1 18 BOARD EXAMINATION 19 BY JUDGE CALLIHAN i
20 0 Mr. Seeders, I would'like to go back with you to-the 21 tool crib.
l 22 I presume that your activities as Calibration 23 Inspector kept you at least figuratively in close 24 contact with the tool crib and the people in the crib, 25 if not physically nearby.
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1 Were you, incidentally, located physically nearby 2 the tool crib?
3 A Yes, sir, that is correct. i l
4 0 What sparked the re-calibration of any particular tool 5 item?
6 A The torque wrenches, all the tools, had a calibration i 7 due date.
8 Those tools were returned to the tool crib on or a
9 before that calibration due date; and we were -- that's 10 when we knew we had to check them.
11 Q Returned by whom?
12 A By the craft.
() 13 O And'possibly by inspectors?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q Did inspectors keep tools out for an extended time, 16 until, say, the due date or did they turn them in daily?
17 A Usually the inspectors turned the tools that they were 18 using back in on that day, on the same day that they 19 took them out.
20 0 On the other hand, the craftsmen may have kept theirs
- 21 out for some time?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 0 Suppose it came to your attention either by word from a 24 craftsman, if he was suspicious, or an inspector, or by Dv 25 the arrival of a due date, at any rate, suppose at the Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd._
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1 time of your reinspection you found a tool, a torque 2 wrench, say, to be out of calibration.
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q Then what would you do with it?
5 A At the time that wrench was found to be out of 4
6 calibration, I immediately placed a hold tag on that 7 tool. I recorded -- I recorded that in my records as 8 such. That would also generate an ICR at that time.
9 That wrench would be sent from the tool crib to the 10 warehouse, LKC Warehouse No. 1, and from there it would
- 11 be sent out for repair and re-calibration.
12 0 Was this done fairly expeditiously?
( 13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q Suppose you found a wrench out of calibration today.
15 When did you send it out to the warehouse?
16 A Well, we were not allowed to touch the tools, so that's 17 one reason that I was placing the hold tag on the 18 wrenches.
19 That wrench would be placed in a hold area in the 20 tool crib and probably the next day that wrench would be 21 transported to the warehouse for -- to be sent out to be i 22 repaired.
I 2,3 0 Was this hold tag a fairly conspicuous object?
24 A Yes, sir; yes, sir. They are big 3 by 5 yellow tags ,
/~T 25 with, " Hold. Do not use," on them.
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1 0 Can you make any comment on a statement that has been 2 made -- where and when is immaterial -- that 3 out-of-calibration tools, tools that were out of 4 calibration, did go back to the field and were used?
5 Have you any comment on that statement or any 6 experience that might support it?
7 A No, sir. I thought we were doing a tremendous job in 8 keeping out-of-calibration tools out of the field and 9 making sure that only calibrated tools would return to 10 the field.
11 Q I, too, would like to refer for a moment to your letter 12 to Mr. DeWald under date of August 17, 1985 -- 1984,
() 13 sorry -- and go to the ultimate and refer to the final 14 statement of the whole letter, the final paragraph, the 15 first sentence, in which you say that you believe that 16 formal charges should be brought against all people 17 involved.
18 Now I have three questions.
. 19 Who are the people against whom charges should be 20 brought, in your opinion, on the 17th of August, 1984; 21 and who are the people who would bring those charges; 22 and, lastly, what charges would you expect to be J
! 23 brought?
! 24 A At the time I meant that to state Mr. DeWald, Mr. Seese, 25 Mr. Seltmann and Mr. Saklak.
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7859 V(~N 1 Q Which people are they in your final paragraph?
2 Are they the people who bring the charges or 3 against whom charges should be brought?
4 A No. I thought that charges should be brought against 5 them.
6 Q By whom?
7 A I didn't fully understand the -- what the process of --
8 what the process would be of submitting a letter like x
9 this.
10 I guess I have to say I really didn't -- I really 11 didn't know what charges would be filed and who would 12 actually carry them out.
() 13 0 So when you say you feel that formal charges should be 14 brought, have you most recently spoken to the absence of 1 15 any specific charge?
16 A No, sir.
17 0 I am sorry. I will rephrase my question. I think you 18 misunderstood and I apologize.
19 I will state it as I did in the beginning: What 20 charges did you feel should be brought against Comstock 21 management as of August, 19857 22 A I guess charges of incompetence.
23 Q I apologize. It's August of '84. I am sorry.
24 JUDGE COLE: Mr. Seeders, there is one 25 question I forgot to ask you --
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, 1 JUDGE CALLIHAN: No. I have got one more.
2 If yours is related, go ahead.
, 3 JUDGE COLE: No. Go ahead.
4 BY JUDGE CALLIHAN:
5 0 Who was your predecessor in calibrations?
6 A A man by the name of Rick Snyder.
_ 7 Q Do you know why he left the position of Calibration 8 Inspector?
l 9 A I am sorry. I missed the --
l 10 JUDGE GROSSMAN: You named the successor. He
! 11 was asking about the predecessor.
12 JUDGE CALLIHAN: Yes.
- ) 13 A (Continuing.) I believe she was fired by Comstock.
14 BY JUDGE CALLIHAN:
15 0 Along about July of 1985 -- and'I have.the date July 16 21st down here for some conversation -- you were asked 17 or instructed to do a review, first I believe it was 18 partial and then at some later date maybe some 100 19 percent --
20 A Yes, sir.
21 0 -- review of your records? I
, 22 A Yes, sir.
23 0 I am sure you recognize what I am talking about.
i
, 24 Also, you testified -- and I think it's in a note
- 25 here to Mr. DeWald, perhaps, when you wrote concerning
)
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1 overtime; but, at any rate, you have said either 2 verbally or in writing or both that you were sort of by 3 yourself and you were doing your regular job and you 4 were doing your training and now you have got to go back 5 and look at all the paper work?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 0 True?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q This July 21st was a Saturday when you and Mr. Snyder 10 worked together and, as I remember, that was sort of a 11 part of his training; true?
12 A I couldn't remember working with him on the Saturday. I 13 remember training Mr. Snyder.
14 Q Let me pick up another one and I am not sure -- oh, yes, 15 it's your report. I guess it's'the one that maybe was ;
16 tossed back to you on some day.
17 Is that the one in which the concluding pages were 18 handwritten, also handwritten but by Mr. Snyder?
19 A Yes, sir. That was the partial review that I turned in 20 to Mr. Seltmann.
21 Q After you trained Mr. Snyder or partially trained him, 22 as the case might be, on the 21st of July, what did he 23 do? Did he work with you or did he go back and do t
24 something else? I l
25 A In the training program, when you train a new inspector,
(])
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i 1 it was standard procedure for you to work together on 2 projects and also for him to get a good understanding by 3 more or less watching you do your work.
4 Q Well, I am, obviously, looking at this period between 5 the middle of July or the 21st of July and the middle of I 6 August, the 17th of August, if.you want.a particular
! 7 date or on into September.
l 8 Was Mr. Snyder working with you in that period or I
l 9 did he have another assignment after he had once been l 10 trained in calibrations?
11 A No, sir. He was basically working with me.
l 12 Q Did he assist you in any particular endeavor? Did he, j () 13 say, work on the review? Did he, for example, work on 14 the review of your documents or did he, in turn, train 15 people or what did he do in that month while he was with
, 16 you?
?
17 A He just mostly stayed with me and worked with me and
],
18 observed me doing my work.
l 19 0 Was that his on-the-job training?
4 l 20 A Yes, sir.
] 21 JUDGE CALLIHAN: I see. Thank you very much.
J j 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
] 23 BOARD EXAMINATION
< 24 BY JUDGE GROSSMAN i
25 0 When Judge Callihen asked you what formal charges you 1
i j Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd. _
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7863 1 wished to have brought and you said on incompetence, did 2 you mean whatever charges would be appropriate, 3
considering the wrongdoing that you had mentioned in 4 your letter?
5 A Yes, sir; yes, sir.
i 6 JUDGE COLE: Just a very short question, Mr.
7 Seeders.
i
, 8 BOARD EXAMINATION 9 BY JUDGE COLE 10 0 I pointed out in the transcript when you got along with I 11 Mr. Saklak very well and you never had any problem with 12 him at all and that relationship changed, at least for I
() 13 some short period.
j 14 Do you agree with that, sir?
- 15 A Yes, sir. '
! 16 Q What, in your opinion, was the reason for the change in
! 17 that working relationship? Why did it change?
18 A I -- I think he realized that all the inspectors at that 19 time were not happy with Comstock management; and, as I l
. l l 20 testified previously to Mr. Miller and Mr. Guild, it was 21 the feeling of all the inspectors that Mr. Saklak liked
- 22 to throw his weight around.
, 23 The reason that I had never had any problem with 24 Mr. Saklak is I had never run across his path per se.
25 I ran my department and pretty much kept to myself
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1 1 and I didn't have any problems with my department, so I i 2 -- actually, except for the Saturday work, which was not 3 even in my area, there was no reason for me to ever --
4 for Mr. Saklak to be in contact with me or me to him. i
- 5 In this crucial period with the training and I 6 everything else, Mr. Saklak was forced into becoming a 7 part of my area; and'in his intimidating manner, he was 8 the type of guy that he would run in and very much let 9 you know that he was going to rule with an iron hand and 10 that is the way it was going to be and if you didn't 11 like it, there was the gate.
12 0 So as soon ac you were included in his domain, then you 13 were subjected to this kind of treatment?
14 A Yes, sir.
l i 15 JUDGE COLE: All right. Thank you.
16 BOARD EXAMINATION 17 BY JUDGE CALLIHAN 18 Q Even though during this period he was your direct 19 supervisor?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 BOARD EXAMINATION 22 BY JUDGE GROSSMAN 23 Q I think Judge Cole was also asking whether there was any 24 particular item that got Mr. Saklak on your back, so to i 25 speak.
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1 A I can't recall, I can't recall.
2 The only thing I can recall that started the whole 3 thing was when he came to get me about the partial
! 4 review, and he approached me in his usual intimidating 5 manner and said that I had to come with him to speak 6 with Mr. Seltmann and to bring whatever review I had 4
7 completed with me.
8 It was like after they got me in Seltmann's office, 9 they didn't know what to do with me, so Mr. Seltmann i 10 threw the partial audit at me.
11 After that he was completely hostile to me at any 12 time. Any time he would approach me, it would be in a
() 13 very -- in a very roug'h and intimidating manner.
14 Q And prior to that time your relationship with Mr. Saklak 4 15 was as you described on transcript Page 7548, that you 16 got along with him real well?
17 A I always worked hard for him on Saturdays; and as far as 18 I was concerned, he was happy with my work.
19 JUDGE COLE: All right, sir. Thank you.
20 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Mr. Guild.
1
! 21 RECROSS EXAMINATION 22 BY MR. GUILD 23 0 Mr. Seeders, let's look at these green folders.
24 I am looking at a green folder here that bears the
{} 25 identifying tab, " Portable oven LKC 763." l t
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1 I am going to turn to a Form 23 that bears a date 2 in the lef t-hand margin of December 21, 1983.
3 Can you tell me what, if any, portion of that form 4 -- it alsp bears the red stamp " void" on it.
5 Do I now understand that void indicated the record 6 needed to be corrected for some reason?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q' What, if anything, appears to be photocopied on this 9 document?
10 A It appears that nothing, nothing has been photocopied on 11 this document.
]
12 O All right. It's not on the list but it is in one of the
() 13 folders that is on the list.
! 14 Folder for portable oven LKC 2209, a Form 23, for i
4 15 the date December 27, 1983, again, two red rubber stamp I
16 " void" marks.
i 17 What, if anything, appears to be photocopied on i
18 this Form 23?
19 A It doesn't appear that anything has been phot > copied on 20 this document.
I
! 21 Q Do you have any idea why it was voided?
22 A No, sir, I do not.
I 23 0 The third folder, high press crimper, LKC 5926, a Form i
24 23 and, again, it bears the red rubber stamp " void," the 25 date 12-27-83.
}
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l 3 A It appears that nothing has been photocopied on this 1
l 4 document.
j 5 Q Do you have any idea why it is a void document?
6 A No, sir.
1
- 7 Q Finally, portable oven LKC A137 --
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Mr. Guild, I don't think 9 this really has any relevance to what was discussed.
i 10 MR. GUILD: I would hardly argue that it 11 does, Mr. Chairman; but I objected to the relevance of 12 the entire line of questions. i
- O la I simply want the record to reflect that these 14 records are not maintained in what appears to be a 15 discernible fashion from which one can draw-inferences.
l 16 Obviously, Applicant seeks to draw some inferences :
17 from the document and I would seek to or would suggest ,
i 18 that those inferences are inappropriate or that other 19 inferences might be drawn.
j 20 JUDGE GROSSMAN: The only inference that 21 might be drawn is that the witness was incorrect in 22 stating that he didn't photocopy anything but the i 23 heading, and what you are bringing up now doesn't rebtit
- 24 that.
{ 25 MR. GUILD: No, sir; but it doesn't suggest 1 Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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7868 1 that the documents had been maintained in regular i 2 course, that one can judge from the existence of a red 3 rubber stamp that those were, indeed, the documents 4 identified in the course of the audit. That was the j 5 inference that counsel suggested should be drawn from 6 the red rubber stamp mark. ,
l 7 If so, there was not a consistent practice employed ;
8 in doing so. )
i 9 I don't think that any inference should be drawn !
10 from any of this evidence; but since my position was 11 rejected by the Board, I think I should have the 12 opportunity to make whatever record based on the witness
() 13 3 on the witness stand I can make with it and I intend to 14 complete quickly.
15 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I don't think it's 16 worthwhile to prolong it.
17 Why don't you ask on that last one?
18 BY MR. GUILD:
19 Q Portable oven, LKC A137, Form 23, date 12-3-82, and, 20 again, it bears two red rubber stamp " void" marks. ,
21 Mr. Seeders, can you tell me what, if anything, has 22 been photocopied on that form?
23 A It appears that -- it appears that part of the heading 24 has been photocopied. The standard tolerances that are 25 always the same have been copied.
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1 Everything else has been written in black ink.
2 Q All right. Does your signature and date and the check 3 mark under the " accept" box on this Form 23 appear to be 4 in the original ink?
5 A Yes.
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Off the record.
7 (There followed a discussion outside the 8 record.)
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. Back on the record.
10 BY MR. GUILD:
11 Q Is this an example of the photocopying of the heading 12 that you referred to as a practice that you recalled
() 13 earlier --
14 A Yes, sir.
15 0 -- where you photocopied only the information that was 16 not reflective of the individual inspection you 17 pe rf ormed?
18 A That is correct.
19 0 Were there other instances, as in this instance for the J
20 portable rod oven A137 for the date 12-3-82, where you
' 21 photocopied only the recurring information'that didn't 22 reflect the individual inspection that you performed?
23 A That is correct.
24 MR. GUILD: That concludes those questions.
{} 25 BY MR. GUILD:
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1 Q Mr. Seeders, Mr. Miller asked you some questions about 2 Mr. Schulz of the NRC and yourself on the subject of 3 'your rights under NRC regulations.
4 Did you ever discuss with Mr. Schulz your right to 5 ,
file a complaint with the U. S. Department of Labor and 6 the Department of Labor's authority to order you 7 reinstated in your former position or provide you back 8 pay or make you whole for any harm that had been done to 9 you for a retaliatory transfer or discharge?
10 A -No, sir.
~ .
11- / Q [.,Did he ever tell you you had to file such a complaint 12 -
within 30 days of t'he date on which such an act of
() 13 discrimination occurred?
14 A No, sir. -
15 0 Were you aware during the period of time within 30 days 16 of your involuntary transfer that you had such a right 17 to file a DOL complaint?
18 A No, sir. 6 19 0 Upon being shown your deposition transcript, Mr. Miller 20 established that you recall seeing what has been marked
- 21' as Applicant's Exhibit 94, that is Mr. DeWald's 22 . termination letter, not in the form as it' is marked, as 23 I hold it before me, that is with the handwriting over 9-24 it, but you recall being shown the document in its 25 typewritten form without the voiding language?
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U 1 A By Mr. DeWald?
2 O Yes, at the time, at the time you and he discussed the 3 transfer. .
4 Did looking at your deposition refresh your 5 recollection that, indeed, you had seen this letter at 6 the time of your meeting on September 27th with Mr.
7 DeWald?
8 A I still don't recall him showing that to me.
9 0 Now, I direct your attention to the letter. In the text 10 of the letter do you see where Mr. DeWald there makes 11 reference to, the second page, perhaps -- first page, 12 excuse me, the third paragraph of the letter that Mr.
() 13 DeWald authored, that you don't recall, does make the 14 statement that there was a 40 percent rejection rate 15 identified in the course of a CECO audit; correct?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q Whether you saw the letter or not, whether you now 18 recall having seen the letter or not, the letter then or 19 not, you do recall, though, that the subject of a 40 20 percent rejection rate, a finding to that effect by the 21 CECO auditor, was discussed at that time?
22 A That is correct.
23 0 Whether the letter prompted it or not, it came up in 24 that conversation?
{} 25 A Yes, sir.
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1 Q And you stated, in substance, as you stated today, that 2 you offered first Mr. DeWald, then Mr. Seltmann the 3 plausible explanation that it may have involved the 4 recalibrated torque wrenches that were sent back because 5 the recalibration was in error but only a single ICR was 6 issued in each instance?
'7 A Yes, sir. I asked them to give me a chance to answer i
8 the charges at that time and I tried to give them an 9 explanation that might answer the question, and they 10 wouldn't listen.
11 MR. GUILD: That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.
12 Thank you, Mr. Seeders.
13 BOARD EXAMINATION 14 BY JUDGE CALLIHAN 15 0 On this last matter, 40 percent' rejection, what was the I
16 size of the sample, do you have any idea?
17 A I-don't know.
18 0 If there were 100 and 40 of them rejected, that is 40 19 percent. If there were ten, 40 percent rejected is kind 20 of a different situation?
21 A They never did tell me what the --
22 MR. GUILD: I believe the record reflects 23 that it was four or five, Judge Callihan, was the 40 24 percent.
1 25 JUDGE CALLIHAN: All right, fine.
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1 That is all I have got. l 2 MR. GUILD: I am sorry. That is 90 percent.
3 I believe there were -- my math is terrible, which 4 is apparent.
5 I am looking at the face of the document and it 6 simply doesn't say.
7 Mr. Seltmann's memo of September 25th details this 8 audit result, members of the Board, and I can't remember 9 the specific number; but the 40 percent is of a 10 relatively small sample.
11 MR. MILLER: I believe they identified five 12 -- tne auditor identified five -- apparently discrepant
() 13 conditions.
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN: They must have rounded that 15 off then.
16 MR.. MILLER: Yes.
17 What that is 40 percent of, I am not sure.
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN: If it was four, I could 19 accept it or even with five total but not with five 20 discrepant items.
21 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Mr. Berry.
22 RECROSS EXAMINATION 23 BY MR. BERRY 24 Q Mr. Seeders, in August of 1984, do you recall whether 25 there was a notice posted on the site notifying
((';
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1 employees of their right to go to the NRC?
2 (Indicating.)
3 A I was --
4 MR. GUILD: Counsel is showing the witness a 5 document, I presume the one in evidence that has a 6 September,1984, date on it?
7 MR. BERRY: That is correct.
8 A (Continuing.) I was aware of this, of this condition, 9 several times throughout my employment.
10 BY MR. BERRY:
11 0 Well, do you recall if there was a notice posted on the J
12 site? Did you ever see a notice?
13 A I don't recall ever seeing a notice.
14 We were given classes on your rights as far as the 15 NRC was concerned.
16 Q And you took that class?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q Did they tell you in that class that you had to file a 19 complaint with the Department of Labor if you thought 20 you had been discriminated against or retaliated 21 against? j 22 A No, sir. That was -- those classes were mainly on the 23 NRC regulations and your rights as far as talking with 24 the NRC.
{} 25 That's why I took my lttter to Mr. Schulz.
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1 Q Do you recall if you mentioned to Mr. Schulz that Mr.
2 DeWald had suggested that you alter your letter?
3, A No, sir, I don't believe I told Bob that.
4 0 In response to a question by the Board, you indicated 5 that when Mr. Saklak took more of an interest or active 6 part in the calibrations area, that he came in in his 7 usual intimidating manner?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q Would you elaborate for the Board and the parties what 10 the usual intimida, ting manner is?
-11 A Mr. Saklak was usually loud with everybody. He usually 4
12 shouted orders instead of making requests or asking for
( 13 certain jobs to be completed, like everybody else did.
14 He liked to think that he could throw his weight 15 around.
I 16 Q Now, when he threw his weight around, to use your words, 17 did he throw his weight around to get someone to violate 18 procedures?
i 19 A I believe he tried to with me.
20 Q Outside of you, do you have any information or knowledge 21 on any other inspector?
l 22 A I heard rumors of Mr. Saklak trying to get other 23 inspectors to sign off documents.
- 24 I have no knowledge of which documents and which i
25 inspectors.
({}
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1 Q I believe, also, in response to a question by the Board, 2 you had indicated as to Mr. Saklak, that his arrogant 3 manner was he is going to rule with an iron hand or you 4 go out the gate.
5 Do you recall that?
6 A~ Yes, sir..
7 Q Do you recall: Did Mr. Saklak ever say that you go by 8 my rules or you are going out the gate?
9 A He never said those exact words to me.
10 0 To anyone?
11 A Not to my knowledge.
12 MR. BERRY: I think that is all I have, Mr.
13 Chairman.
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Mr. Miller.
15 MR. MILLER: I just have a very few 16 questions, Mr. Seeders.
17 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 18 BY MR. MILLER 19 0 You said Mr. Saklak came to get you for that interview.
20 Mr. Berry has already inquired into what you meant by 21 the words, " usual intimidating manner"; but I think you 22 said when Seltmann and Saklak interviewed you about your 23 partial review, that they didn't know what to do with 24 you.
(} 25 Do you recall responding that way to Judge Cole's l
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! l question?
l 2 A Yes, sir.
l 3 Q Do you recall saying during the course of this interview l
4 that the whole situation had been used by Irv DeWald?
5 A No, sir.
6 Q Now, in response to questions from Mr. Guild, you said 7 that you were -- and I 'want to make certain I have this 8 right -- that you were not aware of your rights to 9 pursue a Department of Labor complaint.
10 Is that correct?
11 A That's correct. I l
12 Q Once again, Mr. Seeders, let me show you Page 159 of j
( 13 your deposition, in which I asked these questions and 14 you gave these answers.
15 "O Did you know of your rights to pursue a l 1
16 proceeding before the Department of Labor if 17 you felt that the transfer was retaliatory for 18 bringing these concerns to the attention of 19 the NRC?
20 "A Yes.
21 "O Did you discuss with anyone whether or not 22 such charges should be brought? I 23 "A Yes.
24 "O With whom?
(~ 25 "A With several of my other inspectors," and then he
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1 goes on:
2 "A I am sure -- I know what this said. I am sure 3 that when I answered this question yes, I 4 meant that I knew of my rights when I took 5 that letter to the NRC. I know that -- I know 6 that you put Department of Labor in there, 7 also. I did not know of those rights at that 8 time."
9 "O All right," at Page 162, "well, you discussed 10 it with, I think you identified, four 11 different inspectors as to whether a 12 Department of Labor proceeding ought to be
) 13 pursued; and did any individual suggest that 14 you pursue it?
, 15 "A Yes.
16 "O Who?
17 "A All of them.
18 "O What did they say to you about pursuing this 19 Department of Labor proceeding?
20 "A They said I was crazy if I didn't sue.
21 "O Why? Did they explain why they thought you 22 were crazy if you didn't sue?
23 "A They felt that -- they felt that I was wrongly 1
24 transferred." ,
{} 25 Now, in looking at that portion of your transcript, l
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7879 0 1 Mr. Seeders, do you want to change your testimony that 2 you just gave here, that you were unaware of your rights 1 3 to pursue a Department of Labor case? )
i 4 A No, sir. My understanding of that line of questioning 5 was that I should get a lawyer and sue. That was what I 6 thought you meant and that was what I was referring to.
7 When I discussed that possibility with other 8 inspectors, we only discussed the getting a personal 9 lawyer and suing. That's what I understood you to mean 10 and thad's what I meant.
11 MR. MILLER: No further questions.
12 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. I guess that is all,
) 13 Mr. Seeders.
14 I do want to point out that we consider this a 15 safety matter and that you should not be subject to any 16 retaliation for testifying here, even if you hadn't been 17 subpoenaed. So I just want to get that in the record 18 for you.
19 Now, chances are you will not be called back to 20 testify; but whether you are or not, we would ask that 21 you not discuss your testimony with anyone.
l 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
23 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. Thank you for l
24 testifying and you are excused now.
25 (Witness excused.)
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\- l 1 JUDGE GROSSMAN: I don't think we have time 2 for anything further. I don't want to listen to an 3 opening right now.
4 MR. GUILD: Mr. Chairman, I would ask that 5 the company state for this record whether they have 6 rested their case except for the foundation issue with 7 respect to Mr. Puckett's coupons.
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN: You are asking if they have 9 rested their case.
10 I believe they have said they are resting their .
I 11 case. They are resting their case now; is that correct?
12 MR. MILLER: Yes, your Honor, with the 13 exception of the authentication of the chain of custody 14 of Mr. Puckett's coupons.
15 MR. GALLO: Just a minute. !
16 MR. MILLER: There is also the chain of 17 custody for the test that Mr. Puckett took based on 18 those coupons.
19 Your Honor, there are some additional items, what I 20 would like to refer to as somewhat minor housekeeping 21 problems.
4 22 It appears that I neglected to move for the 23 admission of an exhibit when Mr. Puckett was on the 24 stand, and what I would like to do is to have overnight
() 25 just to look and see whether there are any essentially Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 housekeeping matters that I should try and take care of 2 before I formally rest the Applicant's direct case.
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN: Okay. That is fine.
4 We will recess now until 9:00 o' clock tomorrow 5 morning.
6 (WHEREUPON, at the hour of 4:55, p. m.,
7 the hearing of the above-entitled matter 8 was continued to the 16th day of July, 9 1986, at the hour of 9:00 A. M.)
10 11 12 13 14 15 ,
16 17 18 19 20 .
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22 l
23 24
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NO PAGE NUMBER CERTIFICATE OF OFFICIAL REPORTER
,. 4
~
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This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the UNITED STNTES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION in the matter of:
NAME OF PROCEEDING: BRAIDWOOD STATION UNITS 1 62 COMMONWEALTH EDISON COMPANY (EVIDENTIARY HEARING)
DOCKET NO.: 50-456/457-OL PLACE: JOLIET, ILLINOIS
(,,)
, DATE: TUESDAY, JULY 15, 1986 were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
(siot). 1. M (TYPED) U Gary L. Sonntag Official Reporter Reporter's Affiliation