ML20128E907
| ML20128E907 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | South Texas  |
| Issue date: | 05/02/1985 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| References | |
| NUDOCS 8505290505 | |
| Download: ML20128E907 (46) | |
Text
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b - - .1 - BEFORE THE'- -
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b h"~4,f ~2' U.S. NUCLEAR' REGULATORY COMMISSION-
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'In!the Matter of: .)
) i 5: -,PUBLIC MEETING CONCERNING .)
' ENVIRONMENTAL' IMPACT CONCERNS)'
6 .FOR-: SOUTH TEXAS UNITS 1 & 2
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LICENSE.- -)
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8-L f.9 F~
L10~ Room 321.-
Matagorda County Courthouse::
- . 11:
' Bay City, Texas a.
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- - 12 Thursday, l' , , . .
May 2, 1985 .
,13- '
to .
l 'l ,Q The above-entitled matter'came'on.for public-
' 14 .
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_ 15 . meeting,-pursuant':to notice, at 7:00 p.m.':
f 16 _ BEFORE: HON. - BURT O'CONNELL h : :' ' . . - Moderator 0
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- 17. L_ , ' -
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REPRESENTINGtTHE' NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION:.
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-gr 18' ,. ,
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/f George Knightion 2:' , ' ., p cf
? ]' , .19 Pras'ad.'KEdambia ' s "* 5 '
L ,-j - Oreste Russ Pirfo , ,>
i!- , ' 20 - C l a u d e , J. o h n's o'n , ,. .-' ' , i n, s
[ . ,/
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William Crossman "J8 5 Clydezwisner.
- 21 1 L.cM. Brauner i: * '
22 '
G.'LaRouche f Warren Webb 23 C. W. Billups
, C. L.' Counts L;
.24 R.'O. Gonzales .7
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!l Virginia Tolbert .
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8505290505 850502 L PDR ADOCK 05000498 F T PDR m . ,
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2 1 P_ g-Q g 3 p g I,E g 3 1^), 2 JUDGE O'CONNELL: I think the proper hour has i
~% ,Y 3 arrived. I would like to welcome all of the. folks who have-4 turned out tonight. This is a meeting under the auspices of i-5 the Nuclear Regulatory Commission of the United States. My 6- name is Burt O'Connell, and I was asked to be the moderator'
.7 here tonight.
8 And please don't ask me any questions because I 9 don't think I can-answer them. (Bu't tonight this meeting is 10 being held for}the_public.and for the purpose of asking ques-ij . tions-from thistgroup of'expertsaup here.
i And I am sure there i
12 is someone here who can answer any questions you might propose.
At this' time I hould like to turn the. meeting over 13
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\2 to Dr. Kadambi, and he will instruct you. And of course, 94 15 questions are welcome,'and I encourage you to ask questions.
And if.you ask a question, please come to the mike at the 16 front here so we can have a recording of the question and
'{2- 37 18 this answer.
3-
.0 MR. KADAMBI: Thank you, Judge O'Connell. I would jg a
- ( 20 like to begin by introducing the people from the Nuclear
- s d Regulatory Commission who participated in this site visit
,- 21 i- which we had today and'who are also conducting most of the review in the environmental impact statement.
My name is Prasad Kadambi. I am the project manager in the division of licensing of the NRC, and I manage the l().
a i
~3 1- licensing process -- the licensing of the South Texas project. _
S 3- 2 at -- in Washington.
m) 3- I would like to introduce George Knighton, my boss.
4 He is the branch. chief in the division'of licensing, and the 5 technical reviewers who are expert in the field are seated 6 across from me. And I would invite you to each identify your-
- 7 selfJby name and perhaps the area in which you review.
8 . Lou, would you like to start?
9 MR. BYKOSKI: My name is~ Louis Bykoski, and my area
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of concern is social' economics.and community facility.
.ii MR. BRAUNER: Al Brauner. I am interested in the 12 tomography -- current tomography of population in the area 13 and whatiit is expected to be during the life of the plant by D.
if ~
14 2030. Also interested in the. hazards'off-site from the plant 15 in any way that it might affect the plant - the operation 16 of the plant.
3 - .
j - 37 MR. LAROUCHE: I am Gerry LaRouche. I am interested 2.
18 in the. correct ecology and land use both of-the plant and of s
c l
39 the plant / fishing corridors.
-)
>- .a MR. WEBB: I am Warren Webb. Also ecology, espe-
- }{ ,g d ially terrestial ecology and land use.
21 i'
- MS. TOLBERT: I am Virginia Tolbert.- My specialty 22 is acquatic ecology.
, MR. .GONZALES: My name is Raymond Gonzales, and I
) am looking at the hydrologic aspects of operation of the plant.
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[MR,; COUNTS; ~ I am Clenient i Counts, and my specialty
. ,-f ' - ' 2 .; is[biofowling and: aquatic ecology.
L I:
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~3: 'MR.'BILLUPS:. :I am Charles Billups, and I am also s .
4 an acquatic scientist.
- r. -
5L -MR. WISNER: 'I am'Clyde Wisner.
I am the;public:
affairs officer'with;the Nuclear-Regulatory Commission.in
.6 7 Arlington, Texas.:-
- 8 - MR. CROSSMAN:. I'am Bill-Crossman, section chief in
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Arlington,4 Texas.,
-10 MR. JOHNSON: My name-is;Claude Johnson. Is am'the
- ,, senior construction resident [at.the South Texas project.
12
-,NR) PIRFO: , ' Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. I
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- ' -13.
am Russ.Pirfo.t
- I e am*:a ;, lawyer .-
Don't. bod. I work for the-NRC
%! . ,g staff,:and I am. lead counsel %for.-the phase II hearings that
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are. going on for the. atomic sa'fety and licensing board.
4 MR. KADAMBI: Thank you-Very much.. I.would like to A beg'n i this evening's program'with a few introductory remarks.
17
(
. from George Knighton.
M MR. KNIGHTON: ~ I appreciate all'of you coming out 4 .
I .20 tonight. It is quite a turn-out. I have been to quite a'few
. [l g of these. meetings, and I think this is one of the largest 3 21 1l-' turn-outs we have had.
22 One point I would-like to make i~s that this is a
,, 23 '
b environmental review by the NRC. We have a two-stage process c: .. .
24' Q_
-L- 25 of licensing. Back in the area of 1974, our staff did, in fact, 4
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l -5 M~ s ~1; do g' detailed enyironmental assessment of siting, constructing, 2' and' operating units I:and II of South Texas at-the current site ,
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' :3 It was that, analysis which'made it.possible'for the NRC to
- 4 issue-the.-construction permit,
.5: Now,lthe applicant is in'.for.his, what.we call the 6-OL -- the operating license, This is his final stage of
$ .- construction and preparing himself to go ahead-and load fuel
% '8 and operate the: plant.
~
g This group of people are here today because.our.
'10 rules and regulations require that priorito issuing that
.j,- operating licensel,we.must-again assure-ourselves that the:
g environmental assessmenb--that was done in the earlier stages ten yearslago is'still applicable., ','
-- J13 L
' b' 34 Thesepeople'areheretodayI.ofindoutortryto establish that it/is still applicable or: determine that there-15 are/ differences ~in what'they previously' assessed or to deter-16-mine iffthere are some items which they.did not assess which-
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.n-should be assessed now.
The reason for--this meeting is-so that you the public
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'i who live here, if you have concerns in = these :environaental i 20
$ areas,.we are here to hear your concerns. 'We would appreciate 21
.r-l: it-if you would come forward; give us your; concerns.
22.
We are making a verbatim transcript. The recorder is over here. And~this document will be available:to these
. 24 people when they do their final assessment in preparation for
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6 1- issuance in'the July' time frame of what we, term a draft ~
'/"4 2- environmental' statement for the' operating license stage.
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'3 That statement-will~be circulated to many. federal 4' agencies,? state' agencies and to the public for comment. Then, 5 about 60Ldays after that is. issued, we will then take-those 6_
comments,'reviewfthem, address them, and finalize the
.7 - environmental'~ statement which will be associated with the 8 operating license.
.9 And then that-would be issued in the October time-
- 10 . frame. Thank.you.
11= MR..KADAMBI: Thank you, George. I will now take
' 12 a few minutes to describe as briefly as possible the scope of 13 ' the. review ~'that we at the Nuclear Regulatory Commission conduct -
'*' for all nuclear' power plants, add, of course, South Texas is
- j4 ,
. 15 among-the many that are undergoing licensing review right now.
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16 Forieach nuclear' power plant there are actually
- s jL two separate reviews that are done. One-is an environmental 37
- 18 review,-and the second is a safety review. Each of these t
reviews will result in documents which actually describe in j? . 19 -
.a
.i
- detril the staff's conclusions.
- i, 3 21 For the safety review, the document is called the
_i' r safety evaluation report, and for the environmental review 22 -
the document is called the final environmental statement.
23 The process to' generate each of these documents
() is long and thorough. Today our work focused on the r
_ _ .- .______-._____.___.__._-.m.m ._._____ _ _ _ _ _ _ __m__ _.___- _ _ . _ . _ _ _ _ _ _ __.m_ _ . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ - ____mm.,i V
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.y 1 environmentale impacti- statement .
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I would'like to give you folks a flavor for the
- h ] ~
3 subjectsLthat are covered in this review. I will read out-to-
- 4 - you,what'is' essentially;a list of topics from the table of.
, '5: contents from the^ final environmental statement associated 6; with the South 1 Texas project at an-earlier stage,Ethe con-7; struction. permit', stage which . George described.
s '
8 'The sujects covered are effects on regional' demo : '
9 graphy;. land use; water use; effects on historical landmarks
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10 andfarcheological sites; studies on the geology, seismology, 11 hydrology, meteorology; the effects onLthe ecology of the, area:
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.the external. appearance ofLthe site;~ studies on the radioactive ,
13 chemical,; biocide,'and' sanitary effluents; effects of the
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c, j( tranmission system..- ( 9 '
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The will' list' the unavoidable ' adverse impacts of - the
,15 pro ect. 'The environmental--impact statement, as George des-
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116 ts-cribed, is issued'in'two stages of the licensing processs.
}
37 18l At the construction permit st'ge, a the environmental impact l :. 1 .g ,, was issued in March,11975,... That was ten years ago.
14-
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'For the operating licenserstage, the review is now y i
d' 21 being conducted, and'as George-said, we will examine what
'lr. hanges might have taken place since the review was done ten 22 years ago.
23 24 1 It could -- our current review could result in the
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applicant for-the South Texas project having to make -- being 3
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n 1 required to take~certain extra measures to protect the q 2 environment.
V 3 The documents which will. describe our conclusions, 4 as GeorcJe said, 'will' be issued in the near future this year.
5 Thank-you very much,i and-I'invitecall of.you to 6 participate this evening by asking questions, voicing your 7 opinions, your views -- expressing your views as you wish.
8 ,
JUDGE O'CONNELL: Give me some questions here. Does 9 anyone have a question? Would you raise your hand? Mr.
-10 Johnson, would you approach the microphone?
11 MR. JOHNSON: Is there any time limit on this, 12 Judge?
13 JUDGE O'CONNELL: Not so'far. We will' evaluate that G
'd ,( as you go along. .
H : }Well, supposing I'have more.than one 15 16 quesdon7 s
y JUDGE O'CONNELL: Well, just go -- no hands were raised other than yours, Mr.; Johnson, so just proceed with
- 18 E
your questions.
39
!! VOICE: Ask him to' identify himself.
j 20 f JUDGE O'CONNELL: A. H. Johnson.
.- . 21 i MR. JOHNSON: I live at Markham, Texas. I am a retired farmer, and I don't own any generating stock. And I am only interested in selling a field crop and raising grand-(
V) 25 children.
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' 1f Ithave.with'me part473 of'the NRC's rulesiand e
- M 2- regulations thatl covers physical protection of plants-'and Qf -
Vi ' , materials...'These) regulations go into great detailTabout'
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- 3. - .4 security measures, chain. link' fences,-guard dogs, training of .
57 watchmen, automatic firearms and;so forth.
E ;6 -I also have with me the-Scandia report which covers
.7. theLtransportation of spent. reactor fuel. This reports covers
'. l8? safety andiengineering. factors.of the shipping casks.
9: !Neitheri of these papers include ~any inkling.of_how m
10 the plant and~ materials.would be protected in the event of-311' a. kamikaze attack; that is,;an explosive l laden aircraft with.
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12 a' suicidal pilot.at the controls instead of the dump truck (
J 13 - driver. going into the., embassy.-- .
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'A nut'with a'caus'e'or.one who thinks ~he has a cause.
- .14 -_
t 15 . . similar to an aircraft.hija,cker:or'someone: comparable to Angela- Davis ' ai group'. - i 16_ , ,
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All of us can remember.the damage that this type-b :j -. ,17 4
18 of. attack caused on ships of the.line in;World War II in.
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jg spite.of stringent _ security measures.
- Three Mile.. Island was blamed on a malfunctioning 3
- s 21; valve. Could this type of attack cause a valve malfunction?
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tt ' MR. KNIGHTON: Let me.try-to put this into per-22 R-
'23 .
spective. lYoucare iraising a question,}of course, about safety.
-24 ,
c j MR. JOHNSON: Sir?
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(1i '. MR.7 KNIGHTON; You'are raising a question about 22 safe'ty'. significance . of- the 'act.
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'. 3 '- MR.' JOHNSON: iYes.
4-' - MR . KNIGHTON;: This isn't quiteL-the right. group for -
- 5. that,' 1.InLany.. case,;the' Agency's' position.right now is that' - '
We'00 - n't take-.into consideration acts;.of war, as'a example..
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, p It~is not part of:our responsibility. .
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We.do provided detailed' security. We do provide-ta .
.g exercises.,that.tes't that' security. There.is no doubt that
, ;io e what you say could happeh. We do provide-for some formscof j, attack like tha.t but not necessarily kamikaze plane's. So L12 ..
that;is about;my_ response right now..
,33 -
If you would.look at our systems we have out there, m
-34 you;might',beofinterest;totry.tkfindoutLwhatdegreean.
'e ,
act .like . that' would = affect the' hlarit.- 'But right now, the.
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- 15-
.16 answer,to you is:.: 'wedo;notspecifically,addressthoseacts .
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.j. 37-of. war._
MR. JOHNSON: Well',(terrorism? is becoming awful g- 118 ,
popular in the world'. It-is -- since-this initial licensing 7 ..
3,
]s. pro' cess started, terrorism has grown.-by-leaps and bounds of t ld all types, and it - I can understand why. detailed information 21 tr- _
on defensive structures, security equipment and security plans-should be withheld from the public in order to prevent compromise of their effectiveness, h But I cannotcseec.why the NRC does not recognize and L
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11
'l require protection against this threat.
j~4 2 MR. KNIGHTON: We have --~we appreciate your comments .
" L.,l '
3 .MR. JOHNSON: All right, sir..
4 MR. KNIGHTON: Thank you. Excuse me.
- 5. MR. JOHNSON: My other question is:- what are the 6 limits of liability. insurance that'a generating plant must 7 carry and what:are the limits on the federal share of.the 8 insurance under the Price-Anderson Act?' ,
9 MR. KNIGHTON: I don't have the actual values here 10 to recite.
11 MR..KADAMBI: The Price-Anderson Act is currently 12 being debated in Congress actually in order to - whether 13 or not to renew it. But under the current legislation, the M^#2 14 coverage available is $560,000,000 of what is equivalent to 15 no-f ult insurance'inicase of an accident..
16 MR.. JOHNSON: All right, sir. I am going to sit down and shut up now with these two cliches.
17 History records
- f.
- 18 madness, and then I can't help but let'you have Murphy.'s Law.
g -jg Whatever is imaginable can happen'.-
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- j 20 JUDGE O'CONNELL
- Thank you, Mr. Johnson. You may
.a-d- think of another question before this over. Does anyone 21
'I:
l else have a question now? Would you raise your hand?
22 23 VOICE: Turn the speakers on.
JUDGE O'CONNELL: Turn what speaker on? These 24 f~x.
speakers are attached to the Court Reporter's recording
=(_) 25
+ 2 12 1~ machine, and they are not PA's systems, Lamar.
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2 Mrs.Sleba, did-you want.to-ask a question? I believe 3 I,was talking to you there earlier.
4 MRS.SLEBA: _Yes. I'want to ask some expert here 5 about water sands.- We have a lot of irrigation wells north.--
6 well, west of us.- We are four or five miles from-the reactor.
17 What will happen if that reactor gets a leak in it, and when 8 they pull those irrigation wells on, it-pulls it into our water 9 sands?;
.10 We have deep' wells around 480 feet deep. Is there 11 any. danger? Now, we have heard that it is -- rumors.
12 ER. KADAMBI: Excuse me, but could you identify 13 yourself?
O 14 JUDGE O'CONNELL: This is Mrs. Sleba.
15 MRS.SLEBA: Yes.
16 JUDGE O'CONNELL: What is your first name or your' s
p j7 initial?'
e .,
.- 18 MRS. SLEBA: Dorothy.
- j. }; jg . JUDGE O'.CONNELL: Dorothy S1,eba.
a 20
. A: es.
3 d g MR. KADAMBI: Thank you..
i .
MRS. SLEBA: Can anyone answer that?
MR. GONZALES: I will take a stab at it. There are 23 two aquifers, what they call the shell aquifer that goes down 24 r'}
t'/
25-maybe a hundred feet or so. And then there is the deep aquifer O
E_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ . _ . . __
13 1 that is much deeper than that. There is about 150 feet of 2 dense clay that separate these two.
3' So it is highly unlikely that if you contaminate 4 the upper aquifer you get any contamination of the lower one.
5 So to respond to your question -- if there was to 6 be a leak from the reactor,cand;this would be highly unlikely 7 because it would have to melt through a six-inch steel reactor 8 vessel, then it would have to fall into the containment 9 building which has about a six-foot thick foundation mat.
10 So given that that happened, and it melted the ij concrete, thent it would enter the shell aquifer. From there 12 ,
it would move in a southeast direction.
13 MRS.SLEBA: It would move southeast?
p_
MR. GONZALES: Southeast. That is -- in the shallow 14 15 aquifer, it would move in a southeast direction towards the bay. So if your wells are west of.here, it is almost 16 j 37 impossible that you get any contamination.
2 MRSs.SLEBA: 'Okay. Thank you, sir.
- 18 gg JUDGE O'CONNELL: For information to those that a
came in late, this is a question,and answer period. I think i
g 20
, d quite a few folks have walked in since we started, and we are
. 21 s
'I asking the audience if they have any questions regarding the operation, the safety or the environment connected with the South Texas project.
Mr. Harrison, do you have a question?
( )s
7 .-
k.
14 I
MR. HARRISON: I am satisfied with the way it is 2
going.
3 JUDGE O'CONNELL: All right. Thank you, sir.
4' MR. KADAMBI: I would just like to take this pause 5 over here to' respond to one point that Mr. Johnson had brought 6 up. I don't want the people over here to be left with the 7 impression that the NRC review does not consider the security 8 aspects of the plant.
9 The NRC staff review does include a detailed review 10 of security measures. All we are saying at this point is, 11 first of all, the review is not complete right now; and, 12 second of all, we do not take account of every conceivable
,_s 13 act of -- threat to security that someone might be able to
)
14 think about.
15 MR. PIRFO': Did you want to follow up on that, Mr.
- 16. Johnson, or does that address --
! 17 JUDGE O'CONNELL: Does anyone have a question?
18 There is bound,to be some concern in someone's mind about g
j 19 some questions relating to this plant. We hear various i
20 conversations around, and people are wondering what is going l
A l 21 to happen this way and what is going to happen this way when i
22 the plant opens, how it is going to affect the community and 23 the environment, the river -- all sorts of things.
24 And this is the time to ask it. These folks are n
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25 down here, and they are here as a team to answer any questions
p; .,
- u 15' I
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. that might come-in your mind.
2 Mr . : Johnson..
- 3 .MR. JOHNSE1: Well,.I have^one other question that-
- 4; I would'like to ask. I don't-know'whether this is the group 5' to'put it'.to or not.
- 6 .- But after the passage of'the NucleariWaste Act-which 7- wasienacted aftier this first' licensing process - began, as I.
8 understand,'it allows storage of 1,900 metric tons of wast'e 9 on the. generating plant' site. Section 30 of it,'I believe, 10 addresses-interim storage which can go until 1990, I think.
- 11. I-am not -- my memory is a little foggy on.it, but
^
_ .12 it J goes'a'long. time.
- 13. 'Since our governor and attorney general appears to have this'as a plank'in their platform, he says we are not 14 15 going,,to put it out-here in Hereford.
We are not going to
- 16 - put'it in the state of Texas. L 'J ;,
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l- 37 Does that mean'that it will be left on the plant 18 site until somebody agrees'to take the garba'ge, sand is it r.[
- p- gg rightthat;thiswastefromotherplantsinthesameintercon-a . ,
Il-a 3 nect can be stored.;there, and what.is the percentage of the
[d 21 Participation of the, federal government in erection this i
t interim storage?
j 22 l
l :" 23 MR. KNIGHTON: With respect to the eventual con-struction of the interim and permanent disposal sites, that 24 is the responsibility, again, of the Department of Energy.
25- .
16 l' Where it;is going to go, I haven't the slightest
/4 tj 2 idea. But they are, in fact, looking at'several sites, and 3 it is -- there is requirements placed on them to complete 4 these facilities in a given. time frame.
5 In the meantime~, every' licensee must have a signed 6 contract with the Department of Energy for eventual-disposal-7 of'high-level waste,_which spent fuel is considered high-level 8 waste, before we can issue a license. So_this -- yes. So 9 ahead.
10 MR. JOHNSON: The question I.had pertained to the 11 construction of the interim storage. Under Section 30,. interim 12 storage, the' government: participates in the cost of erecting 13 the storage on the plant site. I don't'think it ever. spells
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out what the percentage of tax-payer's money goes into erecting
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34 15 this storage on.the plant site.
16 MR. KNIGHTON: .I have to agree.: If that is a fact, s
j 37 I' don't what the' percentage is. I can't answer your question.
2
- 18 MR. JOHNSON:- I wondered' if there was any way you 8
a j ig could find-this out.
a
~j R.,KNIGHTON: Well, I will tell you what; we have 20 a
d y ur comment here, and we certainly will look at it with 21
's
-r- respect to our' environmental assessment.
JUDGE O'CONNELL: Yes, ma'am. Would you state your g
f
- name please?- .
() MS. ALLEN: My name is Carol Allen. And what I
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. 17 i ,1 wouldolike:toTsay'is I am4 hearing:some comments, and I think N
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3 if the cameras were on everybody_you would probably;get more questions. .I think'it-~is making you~a little nervous.
~mn
-4 -
I have some questions about,the environment. My-
< -5' husband. was'a- retired' ihilitary: man, and I guess you are. as
_6; safe asiany tanks that cross the streets. And nothing.could
= , 7. have 'sciared you more than - to be in a foreign . country and is watch: and-hear'some signals go off.
9" - I want to say that I appreciate the fact that you 10 all are nin the Bay City -area because I feel' like without -
.it- this plant-being in the Bay City area,-Bay' City would not:be 121 surviving right now.
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13 .- I also feel like if anybodyrcan; send.'somebody to 34 ; the moon'now-days as safe as it is,. surely that with this tis nuclear plant I am sure that these men in their studies will 16 do;the best that they can to make sure it is safe.
's : ~
97, I live' southeast.of.the flow of where it is going to ja go. ,Okay. But I would rather be-near the plant than behind 11*N . y-, g.
g -
. pg a. gasoline-tanklon theJfreeway. , ,
j' j; ,
j And again, I want to say;thank you for coming into a- , _
jld ' 2i h,ere.'We. lived in a. country,where,the" nuclear, plant was built
- r in about four years,.and,,of course, there the nuclear plant belonged to the government. I sort of wish the nuclear plant
,g belonged-to the government over here so we could go ahead and
-h 3 lget it through with and lower our taxes.
G
,3 k- __.____b___L.__._.__._.
1 18
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.i Because, every time the. people fight this, it is our money,and'our taxes that are fighting the delay. So, you know,
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'3 we leave.this to you, and I feel like it.is as safe'as anything
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4 else. And I feel like that we need it. I also feel like we 5- need?to use other' country's resources and save our own until' 6 which: point.in time we may need ours for our own defense.
7 Thank you, 8 JUDGE O'CONNELL: Thank<you, ma'am.
-9. (APPl ause) 10 JUDGE O'CONNELL; Are there other questions?
11 Mr, McWilliams,-
MR, MCWILLIAMS:. Perhaps this is premgture, Judge,
-12 13 but this has to do with operation. I think most of us are
-G
-s'~#
34 well pleased with the construction progress and so on and so forth.
15 Now, it is my understanding that the NRC prior to 16 S
j 37 Three. Mile Island either did not monitor.or did permit -- I e
am not sure which -- subcontractors in terms of the operators
- 18 of whatever utility company.was the managing partner of that
} 39 Y particular established or plant --
20 l ~
d Conn-Edison,'for example, up east, I understand, 21 .
.g i had a number of subcontractor operators. I understand they were not as well trained as they might have been -- maybe a little lack of communication. Letting the right hand know
'( ) what the left hand was doing.
19 1 So I_would well pleased -- perhaps.there are others
~
s 2 here this evening who would also be well pleased and assured
([
3 it is operation -- I am assuming all the license thing --
4 all that goes -- what is the NRC position -- this, of course, 5 will be in. terms of HL&P, the managing partner of this parti-6 cular plant, on using contract laborers as operators?
7 I know they have had some modest training, but --
8 such as the Nukes in the Navy, for example. So that is my 9 question. Does NRC permit subcontractors not employed 10 directly by the utility company, who is designated the managing 11 Partner? Is my question clear, sir?
12 MR. KADAMBI: Yes, it is. Thank you. Could you 13 state your name for the record?
14 MR. MCWILLIAMS: Reverend Milton McWilliams.
15 JUDGE O'CONNELL: Thank you, sir.
16 MR. KNIGHTON: Let me try to give you a little summary of where we stand on the operator training. I do not f: 37 18 believe that we as an agency have any prohibition against using contract personnel. We do, however, have to license
} 39 a.
i g 20 cach and every one of.them, and they must meet the current d standards that we have for operating personnel.
E Post-TMI -- since.TMI there-had been a tremendous 22 amount of effort on the NRC's part to improve the operating personnel -- their training -- to assure their training, to
(/ ,) provide ' good human engineering in designing the control rooms u '- 25 L
9
~ -
20
-1 and the-instrumentation and controls so each of these indi-2
- (~'-y viduals can-readily perform whatever task is' required.
v 3 'And they require that these tasks be studied. We 4 monitor them.. We watch them.and make;~sure that the tasks
'5- are certainly associated with the-design of the control room.
6 In^ addition, the Commission has since TMI required 7 everyl plant we license have adequate number of people --
~
8 minimum of-five shifts of operators. They must have their
.9- training. .They.must have at least six-months hot operating 10 experience, not all cold operators.
13 There must be-hot operating experience on.each shift, 12 and we just waf t license them anymore until they do.
,_c -13 : We monitor the places where they send ~these operators
( l'
'"I 14 to train them prior to getting their license. We go, rand we 15 check on what training they get. And we. test them on their
'16 training.
$ 17 The point you raise is a good one, and we certainly
-- 18 have put a tremendous amount of effort in that area. We
- j. 39 concern ourselves more today since TMI with the human and.his i
.; 20 err rs. S we do,. provide him considerable more training. We 3
d 21 look out for overtime ---that he doesn't have too much overtime .
t 5 and is ill prepared to perform his tasks.
22
~
g 'We concern ourselves with drug and alcohol abuse.
There is tremendous. effort in that area. So I think my 24
[e[ -
25 answer to us is we feel that we have covered that particular
- m. '
O '
~
21
. I case 1-- that'you shouldn't'have~thatfproblem in the future. -
'W V;
- 2. MR. MCWILLIAMS: Thank you.
- 3- JUDGE O'CONNELL: -Yes, ma'am. .W ould you come forward ?
i 4 State'your name please.,
. MS. BIRKNER: Okay. Sally.Birkner..
[5 .
- 6) - eJUDGE .O'CONNELLU Sally Birkner, B-IrR-K-NvE -R, ,
7; MS. BIRKNER: .Okay. A: comment on the ' Johnson .
8 question. The way I feel is that'any atta'ck on.the plant or i
~
- g' anything-that would happen to the plant safety-wise does j g jo : infect - 'will infect'our environment. That.is just-personal
(
jj opinion.
i I.w uld like to know - .I have been_ reading'some 12-c 3 things.that says that the crops within so many miles of the.
113
~
Pl ant will have to.be checked.'
L The livestock -- any milk -
14 1
15 cows -- that the milk will have to be checked. And,the s
16 PeoP l e -- I have heard that people will have to have certain radiation checks and that this will be left up to the owner
}:
j7
. , ~
f the crops.
- . I-18 I have. heard that, like, the rice farmers within-j y,
- ]. so many miletradius will not be able to export their rice 2 -g-d.' without quality checks lon the. rice and-things. I would like
.. - 21
~
.g-
.r. to know if that is true".
22 --
o MR.'.KADAMBI:J Please tell.me if I understand your 23 .
question correctly. I believe that your question has to do
- 24 I with what are the measures that need to be taken subsequent-e .
k i
,.-+-u_wa.__
__.________.___.__.______m_______________.m.__.m.__ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ . _ _ _ . __ _ _ . _ _ _ _ _ . _ - _ _ _ _ _ _ _ . _ _ _ _ __ _. ____.______m. _ _ _ _ _ . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ . _ . _ . _ _ _ _ _ . _ _ . _
m -- . .,
f 22 1 to an~ accident at the plant. Is'that correct?
/~]; 2 MS. BIRKNER: No. I'am talking about in general.
N. /
.3 My first comments was about - 'that anything that would happen 4 to the plant-is going'to affect the environment.. If..there.:is
~
-5 some sort of disaster out there, then the' environment'will be 6 affected. So safety does relate to your environment because --
7 MR. KADAMBI: Yes, certainly. That is the reason 8 why-in.the documentation of the environmental review we 9 specifically address the effects of accidents.
10 And not only that, we also address the measures
-it being taken to monitor the environment under normal operating 12 conditions. And this kind of monitoring which the NRC. requires 13 from every licensee includes monitoring crops. Well, it may.
I~s)
- ' 14 not be specifically crops. Pardon me.
15 Correct ~me if I am wrong over here. But it does require monitoring the water waste, for example, to determine 16
-s j 17 how much radioactivity is being put out into the environment.
- 18 It does include measuring the levels of radioactivity around a
c g ig the plant sites to determine how much is being carried away
, . a.
20 bylthe wind and deposited onto the ground.
l d And these kinds of monitoring is part of normal 21.
I
- r. P*#^DI "*
22 MR. PIRFO Let me follow up because I am not sure --
23 the way I heard the question is really-in two . parts. You 24
)- 25 wr saying that you are concerned about any kind of kamikaze L
s >gt ~
7 ,,
g
^
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- q. . , 23 -
gg%t _
[ ~
~
g ? 1- as Mr. Johnson said and maybe_it wasn'.t -- well:-- so-that was
.k'
-2; theifirst p' 7 art-of your-_ question.
.[Qi 1' =c-
~
3" The second~ question really was in the event ofta a ~
4 radiological release'what would be necessitated in terms of 5: checking #on crops 1and-livestock and,various things like that..
L6: Sofina sense you'had two questions.
Is that true?
17 , 1MS..BIRKNER:-LNo, sir. :My first partwas a. comment
~_
Sj strictly.;,
19 F MR. PIRFO:~ Okay.
10; MS..BIRKNER:.The second'part'isith'e =questi6nathat-I s
1i have some, reports'--
. ~
Okay.
-MR.~PIRFO:
, ,12 Let me address the first one first.~
s 13' MS'.. BIRKNER: Okay.
~
- 14 c MR. .PIRFO: I think that.maybe it wasn't clear 16 beforei but there are NRC standards and things we can't go
'16 into now providing3for the security'of'.the plant. And,there
= s-are f- .we can't cover ever instance. I am not saying that
}t . -
37 is the. case of a kamikaze attack could not, in fact, be repelled
,y
. y
- {
- p .
. , ig by the plant, but everything is -- you know,.there is. limits
- l-
20 to e.verything. So there are provisions for that.
a-d Thedsecond part of:your question I misunderstood the 21-
,;1- r-22 first time. So if you could'just, repeat that or give me an
' Id*"*
[23 ~ , . .
24
.)MS. BIRKNER:
9 .i - -
,I have:-- and evidently I don't have
,g it with me rig'th now. I thought I did -- reports that livestoc k e
n R
+
..<d .im. _ _ _ . ___1__..-.__ '
T
~
24
' 1 and crops'within so many miles: radius::- this is not an acci-
'2 dent;fthis is every day when the. plant is-operating normally --
' [~ p U ~
3 that they will have'to have their livestock checked.-
4 -- If you-were to have milk cows there,..before you 5 could take milk'and sell it that the milk would have:to be 6 checked -- have radiation checks done on it, and your: rice 'and 7 whatever. other:- kind sof crops --
8' MR. PIRFO: I will have -- that sounds -- I will 9 have to turn to one of the technical people.- I just --
J' 10 MR. KNIGHTON: This, I believe, what'you are referring
- 11. to is the fact that as we operate normally there is -- there 12 are some releases. And~we, the NRC,.do control those releases, 13 and we control.the releases so they are not too great.
. /%,
I 4
" But in so doing, the applicant -- the licensee ~has 14 15 a monitoring program -- environmental monitoring program he 16 has.to maintain. He does such things as check his releases
} -
17 over'the daily and monthly. He reports --
-- 18 MS, BIRKNER: Daily or monthly?
- i MR. KNIGHTON: I dontt know the exact details, but j -19 a
20 they are periodic, 3.:.
MS, BIRKNER: I have read that --
21
's 1 MR. KNIGHTON: They do have milk sampling. They 22 do it. We don't do it.
They do it; that is part of their 23 resp nsibility. See, they'are given the responsibility by.
24
( )' 5 the NRC to . provide-information showing the fact that they are
25 1 not im,nacting your cows, your crops, and so on.
^x. 2 So that is usually in their monitoring programs. We
, ~ (,)
3 have --
4 MS. BIRKNER: They have to pay for it. The farmers 5 won't have to pay for it?
6 MR. KNIGHTON:. They do it. Farmers do not pay for 7 it.
8 MS. BIRKNER: The rancher?
g MR. KNIGHTON: That is correct.
10 MS. BIRKNER: .The people?
gj MR. KNIGHTON: That is correct. On the. normal '
12 Operating basis. That is part of --
13 MS. BIRKNER: If it was so safe, that wouldn't be
-, r'N t i4 necessary, I don't believe.
15 MR. KNIGHTON: No. No. How do we make sure that 16 they are meeting the requirements we lay on them? The only 37 way we do that is by monitoring and them --
. . 18 MS. BIRKNER; Well, I believe -you need to.
3 39 MR. KNIGHTON: -- providing us the data to'show it to us.
I
~d~
21 MS. BIRKNER: Yes. I definitely want it monitored.
t' r~ MR. KNIGHTON: Well,.it is.
-22 MS. BIRKNER: But -- and I have read that the 24 emissions will be" monitored monthly. That is so to say that 3
).
you could go -- not you could. The plant could go, say, five iij i )-i. ..
- i. -. g .. g
26 I days without emitting a lot of gases or whatever, and then all
).
l ,
2 of a sudden -- boom -- they could let out however much they V
3 wanted to.
4 MR.~ KNIGHTON: Okay. We might mention -- see, we 5 are talking right now -- we do have on the licensee what we 6 call technical specifications which they have to perform.
7 They have to operate the plant within those.
8 And these include limits that are set on release ..<
9 points where they monitor. And they have actions take place to if they exceed those points. My friends over here from the region, my resident, is there monitoring the results that they -+
11 12 Post.
I- 13 -And if they violate these, there are actions taken
- p. (
'~~') to correct that.
14 15 MR. PIRFO: See, if -- I can't explain how this 16 happens. But if there were a release at the plant, this would
$. 17 be known immediately.- And I will let somebody that knows what 2
- .18 they are talking about follow up on that.
u j_ 19 MR. KNIGHTON: This is what I am trying to say.
20 MR. KADAMBI: That'is right.
$- MR. CROSSMAN: Bothngsseons. effluent;ahd liquid" 21 E
22 are monitored -- monitor each,. sample before.-they are ever 23 released. They must be within regulatory requirements and g within their technical specification allowances before they i 25 ever --
l
27 1
1
.Are we still in service?
2 (Laughter)
-(T
- ( l 3 'ut.
b CROSSMAN: Okay. They must be. sampled and must 4 be within limits before.they are ever released. Once they 5- are determined to be releasable, they_are monitored as they 16 are released'also.
7 .The regulations and the technical specifications are 8 ve'ry' stringent in these areas. The follow-up sampling and 9 monitoring within the environmental boundaries that we'-- where 10 the. releases would go and so forth areLincluded in' milk ij sampling,'various samplings of the water and so forth.
-12 And this is within our regulatory requirements.
? 13 - The utility must conform to these particular limits,-and they b,.4 '
14 are very stringent limits. There is -- they have practically --
-15 well,.they have every conceivable release.that they can make
- 16 l that they must monitor.
t .
j- 37 And they must be within these limits before'they can.
2 18 Now, this is normal operation.~ Under accident conditions, we
(
[
2 ign have to go to an. accident-based scena;;io. These' gentlemen over here have all studied these particular scenarios and.are 1 20 r ..
3 L 0 better-equipped to answer that than I am.
21
- s l' But the routine, every day releases are periodic 22 releases. 'I won't be trapped by routine, every day releases 23 because they are not-necessarily every day. They can be 24 J #V
~ (,) - -
r utine or periodic. Okay. Did --
25 at
7-
.. . . . , gc .y , 4 _ _ 1
~1- %
, -J r , ,.,.S' 28 l
-MS. BIRKNER: Yes.-
1l That answers my question. We l
' -gj w).- ,
2: all know.whst. happened.with Union Carbide, though. Somebody
- 3' forgot.to release it, didn't they?
~4 -VOICE: Right.
5l JUDGE O'CONNELL: Th'ank.you, ma'am. .Are there other 6 questions?.-Mrs. Rosenthal.
7 -- MRS. ROSENTHAL: .Yes. I understand that in France --
8 JUDGE O'CONNELL: We have to have you recorded, 9- Betty. State your name first.
10 MRS. ROSENTHAL:' I am Betty Rosenthal, Bay City,
.n Texas. -I understand that in' France they have had nuclear 12 P lants 1 functioning for a very long time. - I don't.know of any L~ 13 ' Problems they have had with them.
f [/Y
, 34i How do ours differ in problems? It seems we have
~
15 been delayed, and the test ~gets. greater as we go along. And i
16! bviously, the French are safe.
j7 JUDGE O'CONNELL: Can anyone.here speak on France's l
18 '
nuclear ^sysdem?,
- i. E!
1;[- 19. MRS. ROSENTHAL: . Well, or.is ours so much'less?-
JUDGE O'CONNELL:
We haversome. experts up here.
'.,. 4
' 20 Ld( W uld you move right up here? We will give you a double shot
,..g
- 2f .
't r- , here.
MR. CROSSMAN:. Okay. I- won ' t go into a 'long ' dis-
.s'ortation aboutlow safe or- unsafe the French facilities are.
(
) - But the United States has been in the business.a considerable-l ,
\
_ .v _ .
y s
)
s .
s s # - '
30 w
'? 1 length"of. time. ,Some of our first reactors, one particularly
-2 that I can think of, was started ~in 1943.-- a whole' series of
'(~Ns xf 3 th'm e which,were~ production-reactors and not power reactors 4 like we'are.looking at.here.
e 5 Our old reactor technology, if you.will -- the II .6 reaction -- the particular-group of reactors that we are 7 building;now-days are-very' safe. The containment is approxi-
~
8 mately four' feet thick on these reactors.
9 ~ Mr. Johnson over there was talking about an aircraft.
10' plowing:into'one, if you will, a kamikaze' plane. He would
- 11. have to penetrate a' four-foot thick reinforced concrete of 12 about 4,000 pound. concrete plus its being post-tensioned, if
- 13 you will.
?. --
14 So the possibility of him going _through that is'
'15 Pretty remote.
. 1 16-So'far asasafety goes, we have taken scenarios
-s 17 of' accident's.that-alarm a l'ot of people because they-are
-Ih .
extreme accidents. But-in order to really make them safe,
- 18.
x, 1; 19 .
you-mustftake an extreme case and build it -- build a_ facility
.k g to those extreme conditions or for those extreme requirements
~
.g.
t.
in order to have an extremely safe reactor.
. . 21
- I Do you follow me?
- 22 MS. ROSENTHAL: Yes, sir. The point I am trying 23
'to make'is I am surely concerned with safety. And the j
25-
.Eurppean people have had wars on their continent with bombs h
= -.-
v - __
'31
- s. .
1 an'd many:Ninds of hazardous occurrences And they are not
~
H2 afraid of nuclear energy. They have been enjoyin'g nuclear 3- energy;at.a lower cost.than weDbecause the cost continues to
~
'4 proliferate while we' wait ~and chat and worry.
. . l5 MR. KADAMBI: Well,.I~.think the thrust of your s
.6- q'uestionLis basically a comparison between the European-nuclear program and-the nucle'ar program we have in this' country. .Is
~
2
- 7. -
v 8 that correct?- 9s MS.,ROSENTHAL: Or rather.the fa'ct'that-they have used it~successfully,2and1meanwhile we are' talking and wo'rying r l ;10 '
; is andlspedding much more money. And:having no results.
' 52 : ?MR. KADAMBI: Well, I would like to point out.that 33 today in this country . nuclear power -supplies enough electiricity 114 :
to be the.second most abundant source'of' electrical power. -In
~
~
~
,- 15; other:words,~next to coal,. nuclear power is the main contri-
~16 butor.to Ithe electrical power-in the country.
P: .
~ ..
So I. think --- you :know, we as a nation are 'using .
~
f g
?!. ~
=18: nuclear. power, but-we'as a nation-have abundant resources 1:-
g ig - of: coal which we have chosen to use. a g lNow, a country like France does.not have the same hdj ' resource base and the alternative sources of energy.- So they 21
+
3 lr ' have a much more ambitious nuclear poweriprogram.; And as a J23 matter of fact,; the reaY: tors that they use are similar to the reactor being' constructed over here in the South Texas project
~
g because their. reactor design is based on the Westinghouse ~
- . . b 1
- E 4-
- A . . k;. ._. .
V 32' 4
.I' reactor, aridS so l's $this on< e.-
, ~
-d 2 y .a') . MR. CROSSMAN: I might add the French have~come over 3-here l to see some of- our facilities'.
[ VOICE: I think what the la'dy was trying to say 5'- isbEurope.does not have any' trouble with their nuclear plants.
.6- Okay. -Why can't we get on and build ours without any problems.
7 JUDGE O'CONNELL': Mayor. Bell.
-8f MR. BELL:' I am Bill --
JUDGE O'CONNELL: .The mayor of Bay City, Mayor Bell. 10 Thank;you.- I think one thing you should MR. BELL: 11l bring out is;your visitors center located at STP. I was out 12 there -today for my first visit -- had -a very good visit. They
.13 : answered -A almost'iallsthe. questions..that,have'been1 asked.today -
- d. i14 were answered for me today through a visit to the reactor.
15' and down in theicontainment. s .
-16 They explained-to me that after Three Mile problems 7-f 17 that they-have gone back and redesigned this unit out here so that,theychave safeguards now that they didn't have at
~
-: 18
, ".j i 19 - Three Mile, Y - 20 So I think if'everyone would go out to South Texas j;
,a.
os 21- Vistorst center, I think it would be a very enlightening visit
*I, ,
- r' 22'- for them. That is alloI have to say.
i: ot 23' JUDGE'O'CONNELL; Thank your Mayor'. Mr. Simon. L I- 24 State your. full name please, V ;- . MR, SIMON; All right,- Maurice Simon. I am an [. . *-< :25; [ l- ,
' 'J L
" _ l }
-m
.; j, ,
t
, 33 Attorney [here in Bay,C$ty, I.have two, strictly environmentdl
^
11 3 s ,. 1-
/ . 2 f"v . 12 questionsitd poNt"toithe panel here .-
'Qf -
p ~ L 3^ I can, remember some; ten or. twelve years ago when
, S 4- this plantLwas in the process of being licensed-to start 1
5' construction, :Ther'e was.quite a concern abo'ut the alligators 6 down there. If anybodytelse= remembers'that. Can anybody on the panel. - has a head count been taken of the alligator
~
7
- 8) Population down.there on a recent basis?
/9 JUDGETO'CONNELL; Mr. Simon *s-question was -- is-10 '. had.anyone taken!a current' count'of -- head' count of.the 11 alligators.who reside.ontthe South Texas project site?
12 MR,'LAROUCHE: The ! alligators i are --~ what is ~ thei word';I want?
~., ~ 13' D -
f j'4- (Laughter) if - MR, LARQUCHE; AreJcountedJ. periodically.and have. They now Jigure 'they ..have something
~
16-been'since the'CP stage,
-s - . .
;p 17 like 75 alligators out there, We saw'three'or.four of them-
'8
, c.
'18 today,
,l, g .jg
-MR..'BILLUPS; We saw 12 of them.-
a Twelve of them, j ! : '" MR,.LAROUCHE; g; 20 1' 21 (Laughter)' [=. ~ How many males and how many' females ?- 1r< JUDGE OtCONNELL: 22 1 g. MR,. SIMON; Well, my question is how many did we start with,,and how many do we have today? Do you have any t i G .
j .-- 34 1 JUDGE O'CONNELL: Maurice, I burieve you are 2 asking a question that they can't answer. x.s 3 MR. SIMON: Well, has it increased or decreased? 4 - MR . LAROUCHE: I don't remember any figure for the 5 original population. Do you remember? 6 MR. BILLUPS. There have been some relocations 7 of alligators during construction in order to protect the 8 alligators because -- g (Laughter) 10 MR. BILLUPS: -- when you have'a lot of heavy 11 equipment around and you have -- 12 JUDGE O'CONNELL: iLet me help.answertthe, question.
,_ 13 We have a --
\
~
14 VOICE: Please use the mike. 15 JUDGE O'CONNELL: a-- governmentutrapper. here in Matagorta 16 County. His name is Mr. J. C. (unintelligible], and I imagine J. C. knows -- I think he works at the project part time, and { 37
- 18 he will probably know more about the alligator population jg than anyone here tonight. I can find out for you, Maurice.
a R MR. SIMON: All right. I sure would appreciate it, g 23 3 Judge. I have one other question. I promised you two. ,Do--- 21 3 E g is it within the knowledge of this panel -- what is the pro-e ted full force of permanent employment this plant will 23 generate for our county?
! MR. BYKOSKI: The latest estimate we had_was 1,334 25
n m -
~ '
Y' '
;35
.: o
_1 .
. . ,- . . w 11 permanent: operating,workqs'. er _
^
. . :2 . JUDGE'O'CONNELL: , Mr. Rosenthal. Stanley Rosenthal.
A./ ? t , . ) '.- F
- 31 : MR.jROSENTHAL: 1I;was a~littleglate so.'I wasn't pridileged for:anything that took place prior to me getting.
~
'4 c
[ ~4 5 hereorlistenin~g';'hbw'everiI.understandthatthishearingis l6_ .to vorry whether.'this: environment would be safe from this
~
7,- nucleariplant. 8- 'And there-~are -- it appears;that we have people. 91 going.around the country trying to remove nuclear energy as -
, 10 our main sou'rce_of' energy, which'is' ridiculous.
Now, I have=
~ ' '
33 been advocating nuclear energy since-the early'50'ss It.is
- 12 the safest form of energy for generating electricity that man .
c 13 has devised.
=;r ;
A .-
- j. _There have~been no accidents. And due to_-the. people
~
orttheir concern about the environment, 20 years ago they
,2._ _
g didn't even know what those words were. Geologists and engi-
~ V ~,. ~
neers were using those-words~ prior-to the event of nuclear-
; -(( . .
17 i * "'9Y*
- .(}.. .19 Now, the point that I_am getting at -- every time z
,a- ..
they want to' show a disaster, they try to show the bomb
- l Jl a j' o~ 20
" ?di c- - exploding. .There have been two bombs exploding: one in' , 21
"(rg Nagasaki and one.at Hiroshima.- If you have'been there in the
; 22 C last 15 or 20. years,~you will find that those highlands of 23- .
1 Japan are. green. There has been no permanent damage. ?NI iM 25-Now, I-am hotntalking about thenpeople that had p x , ,! O vt
-2
36 1 direct radiation from-the bombs. They ran tests in the South fw. 2- Pacific,.and'there-is radiation. People have moved back after
\,-) . -
3- a. period _of time, but those.were direct bombs. m 4 The'radiaElon as~~I underst'and it that'would be 5 released from this~ plant or any:other nuclear plant is less 6_ than -being out :in the sun for about five - ' maybe ten minutes
.7 whether it is in the Gulf Coast, Denver,' Colorado, or any 8 othe'r parts of.the United States.
9- If we do not get rid of the constant fear,.we will 10 become a third-rate nation because we need to run on energy. 33 - Now, if'we look at history, 1901 we had a blow-out called 12 SP i ndletop. If we had had all of these people of gloom, we 13 would have never had the great oil-industry we had.
.i .
g And they talk about the environmental being harmed ut~there. At one time there was over a million barrels of 15 il n the ground.= You can go out to Spindletop. It is the 16
; 37 most lush growth you have ever seen.
. Prior to that-when the horseless carriage was
, 18 jg invented, it was such a way it was going to harm mankind that 1 when you ran into :a city ycu had'to have a man running in
.g 20 d 21 front of this horseless carriage.
-}: All of this is relating to the fact that we need 22
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to have this nation get forward and get rid of these people that only predict. gloom and doom. You will never progress '" if you do not.take a chance.
W '7,
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371
- T L1 , , . And asifar-as-the' risks;that are invo'lved -- yes.- -
,_ ; i _
yw*j: ~
'2 there are risks (:but.theyjare so minimal that the benefits will
'L c
# ~3 overshadow;those. -
"4 jNow,JIl read I inithe new'spaper thht they.were~~ talking 2
*- i is- abbut - the tremen'd' o us- loss of. water- from this ' lake that has
- m. m.. , t, s I6l been set' aside jfor? the cooling; of ? this L plant. .Has.anyone-
.7- considered-the e~vaporation?.!We arefnot' losing as much water as.they are' claiming from goi'ng'into the subsurface and the
~
.-J
. -8 19- other? aquifers.
io? Buti.the loss of' water-will be greater'from evapora-
^
tion. y L11 12; And I:think I have taken'enoughLof this panel's. time 13l to-state my opinion. .And I believe'that thelmajority'of the Lf). " 34 people in this county; feel'that there are; people ~trying to
.15 Prevent'this-plant and' causing unavoidable delays and
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j, unnecessary. delays. Thank you..
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.s JUDGE O'CONNELL: Thank you,.1Mr. Rosenthal. You
.kl;. < . 37
'18-didn't-have a question.there, did you?
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1 . g .jg MR. ROSENTHAL: I had some, but I think I will keep ng T:! : -- them to myself.
'. g , 20 m:E .
JUDGE O'CONNELL; - Thank you. Questions? We.have-e e. . i 21 g ..
-rn ,
. ai l ittle thinking time. Anyone who has one.. .We have until
- , 22 -
t
+- 9:00 p.m. This meeting.is live until 9:00.p.m. This is a
.73 meeting, It'is not..'a hearing now, Stanley. It is a meeting.
t , 24
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t -
.-VOICE: What is the difference?'
I e t _ _ k Y " g. ,., . , .
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38 1 '(Laughter) - 2 ' JUDGE O'CONNELL: I'have been told by this gentleman, { 2 3 Mr. Knighton right here,:-that this ;is not a hearing; it is a 4 meetiing. Mr. Mamoun. Mr. Nohad Mathoun. .You spell that for -- 5_: sMR.JMAMOUN: . Oksy.'IItiis N-O-H-A-D,-M-A-M-O-U-N.
-6 I-have been -- some of my immediate family are nuclear 3 . - .. .
. .7 scientist, and I have been around nuclear talk for all my life. 8 Ilknow a little about it, and'some of the. things I have
, Eg . learned about nuclear energy and nuclear waste and nuclear Pl ants and.so'forth --
~
. 10 --
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, - 11 I have learned-that those companies that construct To .
' # most nuclear plants -- they. spend millions and millions of I'2 13' dollars to come out with a plant that' protects.the environment, 34 that' protect'?the s ecological surrounding of the plant, and-
"11' aspects that belongs to' safety -- general safety of the
- 15 16 Pl ant'no' matter what'it'is.
; 37
' Millions >of-dollars are spent in very, extensive detailsd: studies..
.18;
.Now, let1the lady panel and gentlemen panel: here say i j '
,19:
l why.this money is spent. I_am sure this monef d spent for
. 20
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- d' .
a worth cause to insure the safety of:the public surrounding
'i= the plant and to.:really insure that.we have a safe and clean environment.as far as the vegetation, animation and population
- above all.
. 24c
. So when I see somebody spending millions of ollars 4
1'_ _a-amm.
. _ -_. _. _ ..r s. . _ ._.-.__.-______m - . _ _ _ . _ _ ._m-_m.--__.--._.______.-.-.---_m-- . _ _ _ _ _ m2__ -_ -____ _ 4 m. e-vM
V qc :.:: _ -
- 3 9 --
L1) in support of such a humongous project -- just for'one aspect
;, y-4 - .' 2 offthe-project, man, I-can't help _but -- I have'got-to
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applaud those people, and:ILhave got to tell them, hey, I
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s 3 i,s..' . . ' . ,
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4 appreciate-you all for concerning my safety, my children's J 5_ safety ~and'my land IiamHliving_in; . ;; .
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- . 'x l '. . '.,. .
.6 i .And I can't help but believe_those people. .I.believe
-7 in'them. DAnd $he majority df us here believe in them._ And 8j judging;from'the statement that nobody is asking anything, I 9- havelthe feeling tha't I am_just talking myself of my person.
[jo I'have a' feeling.that thei majority here-agree that_we need
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jj. the nuclear. power in this town and this area. We.need-it. Our survival depends on'it. It is 12
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.w 13 .cleani We feel it is clean. Like Mr. Rosenthal said,~ it'has i_ ^
34 its risks. Everything has_its risks.- I can~ walk down the street;~I can get killed by a car down here. But I can't is "U " * '
._161
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g -I have?got to prepare my mind and my conscious that Ilhave'got-to.be careful to look out for the cars coming. I-18 j- _
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, 3, j have got to do that.
b - But we all need this power. We need the-United ij. .20 LJf
- u. s 21 States of. America today. And that is the cheapest power, I 4
E r,
-l. believe, if it is not the cheapest. There is one thing.it
-- 22 is going to do for us; it is going to keep our electrical rate down;=it'is not to be increased up.- That is good for me.
Thank you, Y
. $. 6- +- . -
T-
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'1' . JUDGE OfCONNELL: .:Thank you, Nohad'. Mr. Mayfield'.
[ [-f " c2' All right.M The. mayor.of Pala'cios is here, Mr. Leonard Lamar.. LF '- po'.you-have~'ny questions,-Leonard? 3 a w 4
-4!
f' :
.MR. LAMAR:s iNo. ."Everythingsis fine.
' 5 ;(Pt.use ) -
t i - iMR.LKINGHTON; ~ - ^ .. '> 2 ~ 6 Judge' Connelly - s j [ sic] asked me p , ,,
-7 earlier.if I:would make a statement about the emergency planning l aspectis' tha'tN have to go - throughy It is not
~
, 7 8f 9- associated with=the environmental' review, but it is,-in fact,.
-10 associated with-the eventual' licensing of the plant.
;g : 11, And under our regulatilons, the applicant is required 7.12 .. to have very detailed plans o'f what.could happen - .various scenarios:.of what could happen'in thezN1 ant -- accidents that-o.
13
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14- would. happen, what-procedures and actions they should:take 15 to ' mitigate 'that ' accident, maintain. It and to' shut! down the
.16 ' reactor and maintain.it in arcool~.~and in a safe condition.
- s j
a 4 17- ;Obviously that~also-requires-off-site emergency
- l18 Pl anning.. The-off-site' emergency planning is:the-responsi :
e j; _ 16 bility of FEMA, and.it is the federal' emergency management-y 18 20 group. We have-to work with them. -We have to have them 73.9 Yk - _ 21 - satisf actorily set up plans -- off-site plans, reeaning working 1
.r with.your people,5the. city here,.the other cities around --
22s
. 23 settingzup emergency plans.
24 How are you going to take care of the situation if-and when it.happens? This includes sirens or methodologies of-25 6 As..__.._m_-m__.__ i.__._m. ___m- - ________________-___-___,_____m
m- , c w , q/
- =
. . .41
.. r P -- 1. . making everyone aware'of,what is going on.-~It_also includes f~s t,. 3_j 2 what' actions.will beLdonep what medical facilit'ies willLbe-Y ~
.3-available, how you will= evacuate people if you feel it neces-4 sary, i.
These : plans: must- b'e -tested, J .5 They are tested. including 7th -statap local:and plant personnel,
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6 They are done 17 with'inione year [ ' v
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&. '8 MR. CROSSMAN:. Beforel licensing'and then after-
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-9 licensing also, and:We carry on.-periodic --
MR, KNIGHTON; .Each of'those, exercises are complete
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10: - exercihes._ They are evaluated and reported upon, and actions-
,. 33 12: have..to be? taken-to take' care of any deficiencies that could _
13' happen.
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h 34 The plants as a result ~of TMI have very significant engineering' support aspects which are now built into them,-
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15
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having:.the' proper:l people there-at the right place to help-them
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take care.of thisiaccident. They have'off-site: facilities' 17 18 which, again, make available for space-communications and information.for-state, local and other authorities that have _a
} _;g
*i g tolbe'in:on this particular episode.
; u, F3: So all of this is:done. It is part of the cost that g
. A. [ someone.was' alluding to -- the cost of running a nuclear plant,
'r-23 but-they have:to be done. -You have to plan ahead. -You can't wait until you are in the middle of it as we were to some
~ i- 24 extent at-TMI, f
42 11 .And as a result of TMI, we learned a lot.of lessons,
,s-2 and'those'lessonsLhave been fed back into the' design and the
> \
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-3 construction of_this plant and the operation of it. It did 4 cost money';.unfortunately, it did.
5 But it is there. It is a fact that you can be pr tected, and these are' lessons learned.
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6 I hope that helps 7 a little bit - ;thatfthere is a lot of effort goes into taking 1 8 care of that very low case that it is going to happen. 9-
' JUDGE OtCONNELL;- Th'a'nk you, Mr. Knighton. I had 10 asked Mr. Knighton to expound on that particular subject
},_ although it is not in the -- I don't guess under the pmbrella f this particular -- I started to say hearing, but this is 12 t.
13 a meeting. So we have the man that is responsible, locally for-O,- g putting that emergency type planning, and he has been working diligently on it for several year -- Mr. Norman Walker. I see he-is in the addience. Appreciate that, Norman, Are there other questions? Any other people have
=. Ian
$ comments, Mr. Knighton?
J- 19 Y MR._KNIGHTON: Do any of you all want to make ij.. 20 f comments of any kind? Bill? 4 21
~:
E MR. CROSSMAN: In regard to emergency planning, as 22 .- Mr. Knighton was -- gave us a brief description of. The 23 facility has built as part of its construction an emergency
. 24 '.I'l
25 operating facility. You can see it just outside of the gate
j- .
'43 1
on.the east side. r3 2' The plant maintains a hot line, if you will,_directly V
- 3. to our emergency operating facility in_ Washington where there 4 is a duty officer on duty 24 hours a day.. There are five-5; regions of regulating facilities. .I am from Region IV in.
.6 Arlington, and we havefunder~our:sdrveillance the South Texas 7 project, .
8 : We have;a' h'ot line 'directly witti our headquarters 9 group and are notified any time there is any semblance of f 10 an emergency or an' unusual event.at the~ site. We keep Very
.it close tabulation on operating facilities and are prepared at 12 any. time'to move.in the event there is an emergency.
. 1' 3 . -JUDGE O'CONNELL: Thank'you, Does that cultivate
.,m_
-(v) .34 any questions in anyone ts mind - this last subject _ we- are -
15 talking about, That is the warning system around the plant. 16 You might --- of course, like I say, maybe that is not in the
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busines~s'of this carticular meeting to discuss those things.
}2 37-
- 18 But that.is something that is on the minds of, I g
] _.a. 39 am sure, of everyone that'is in the~ room that lives-within
- g. close proximity of the plant. One lady there told me she
'd- g lived four miles from the plant, and I am sure there are t
'! other people in that same vicinity.
g Mr. Bobbick [ phonetic], did you have a question? MR , MADAMBI I would like to suggest that if any n Of you is kind of bothered by having to speak into a mike as
r ;.
-44 gs ye+
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- 1 - part'of this meeting this evening, but if you still have rV 2 questions I would suggest.that you can come up-to-us after-
, ,d .
3- we have concluded the formal part of the meeting.
- 4. Ahd we will be available to answer your-questions.
5 . JUDGE O'CONNELL: So if anyone has anything on 6 theirmindrelatkngto'this--if'youhaveahesitancyto 7 ask-the' question, then these folks 'will be available: after 3 the conclusion _of,theuformal part of the meeting. 9 Mr. OPella. Mr. O'Pella' served many years on to the city council of' Bay City and also as mayor. And state 11 your name again for the reporter, Mr. O'Pella. 12 MR. O'PELLA: My name is Ernest O'Pella, and-I have
-13 been a resident of Bay City since 1961. I would like to say ja
-k]- that ithe lack of guestion and'that you are 45 minut'es short
- 34 :
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15 is indicative that the people in Matagorda County and also-16: the surrounding counties'have' full faith in the nuclear plant
-s.
] 37 that is being built out here in.Matagorda County.
2
- .18 And the contractors are.on the job now in the e
- )- jg engineering and that the job will be' built in a safe -- in a a
l- good manner, and this is needed. 39 - 3-d' JUDGE O'CONNELL: Thank you, Ernest. 21 i; r (Pause)- MR. KADAMBI: Okay. We thank you very much for 13 everybody who has.come out here and for-your participation in
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this evening's meeting. 25
5
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, 45-1- JUDGE O'CONNELL: .I:would.like to thank each of fx . . 2 you1also.;-As1I say, I':wasn't any kind of-an expert here. I
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3 am just'doing part of the talking-here, but I want to stress-
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that;these folks'will talk to you individually if you have 5; a: question ~.on your mind and you don't care'about being on. 6 theirecord or.whatever--- for any reason. 7 ..They,.are.here;available to you, and I appreciate all of those that did c$me up and Eomment.
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8 And I thank the 9- peoplefromthelNuclearRehulatoryfCommission, i .~ . 1'O (Whereupon, at 8:15 p.m., the meeting was concluded.) 11 '
.a 12 13 4
14 15 16 g- - - 18
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m-
-3: ~ };b g . 21
- s s s t.
p, 23
- 24
- s. ___E_-_____-__________________.____.__________________________.___-.______.____._m_
-E.E E I 1 E 1 E E I E p 'tj This ' is to certify that the attached proceedings before U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission In the-Matter of:
Public Meeting Concerning Environmental Impact Concerns for South Texas Units 1~& 2 License. Date: May 2, 1985 Place: Bay City, TX , were had as therein appears, and that 'this is the original transcript thereof for the files. off164al/teporter t
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