ML061800208
| ML061800208 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Salem, Hope Creek  |
| Issue date: | 10/23/2003 |
| From: | NRC/OI |
| To: | |
| References | |
| 1-2003-051F, FOIA/PA-2005-0194 | |
| Download: ML061800208 (42) | |
Text
1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3 + + + + +
4 OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS 5 INTERVIEW 6 -- x 7 IN THE MATTER OF:
8 INTERVIEW OF Docket No.
9 : 1-2003-051F
- 4 10 (CLOSED)
" 7Q 11 -- X 12 Thursday, October 23, 2003 13 14 Conference Room 15 Salem/Hope Creek Nuclear Power 16 Station 17 Hancock's Bridge, New Jersey 18 19 The above-entitled interview was conducted 20 at 4:30 p.m.
21 22 BEFORE:
23 Special Agent MARK A. ANDERSON 24 Information in:2t*s 'ecord was deleted in accordance with ie Freedom of Information Act, exemptions "
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2 1 ALSO PRESENT:
2 MARK FERDAS 3 Hope Creek Resident Inspector 4
5 CHARLES HASSLER 6 IBEW LOCAL 94 Business Representative 7
8 9
10 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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3 1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 4:30 p.m.
3 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Today is October 4 23, 2003. The time is now approximately 4:30 p.m.
5 This is an interview today with 6 .) This interview is being conducted in a 7 Conference Room at the Salem Generating Station.
8 Present at this interview are myself, Mark A.
9 Anderson, a Special Agent with the Office of 10 Investigations, U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission 11 Region I, King of Prussia, Pennsylvania.
12 Also present is Mark Ferdas, -Hope Creek 13 Resident Inspector. Also here today wit 14 is Charles Hassler, business agent for IBEW Local 94.
15 This interview is being recorded and a transcript will 16 be prepared. Prior to going on the record, 17 Jindicated that he would like to have the 18 transcript made available to him after it's returned 19 so that he can look at it for accuracy.
20 The subject matter of this interview 21 concerns the safety conscious work environment and 22 issues related to it here at the Salem and Hope Creek 23 Station. At this time, I would ask you 24 if you would raise your right hand so I can swear you 25 in.
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4 1 WHEREUPON, 2
- 3. was called as a witness and, having been first duly 4 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
5 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: If you could 6 state your full name for the record please.
7 8 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Your address.
9 10 11 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Your current job 12 title.
13 14 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Your home phone 15 number.
16 17 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Your work number.
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19 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Date of birth.
20 21 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Social security 22 number.
23 It I
24 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: If you will just 25 tell me a little bit about your education history and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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5 1 how you got into the nuclear industry.
2 3
4 5 I needed a job.
- 1) Here I have been ever 6 since, . ears.
7 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: People don't 8 stick that long in one place anymore.
9 No.
10 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: So you came in.
11 I assume you have held a variety of positions here.
12 Yes, I came in as a 13 whic z] 1-!a1 he-lper'i t ma--ntiren-anee 14 department. I went to what they call the 15 7.) Then I was promoted to Back 16- ---. a-few-years-ago,-the union negotiated what they call 17 a which combined the job of the 18 electrician and the INC technician.
19 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: So you have had 20 that position for how long would you say?
A 21 22 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Your current 23 supervisor would be who?
24 My current supervisor would 25 be NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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6 1 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: What would his 2 position be?
3 4 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: So we talked a 5 little bit off the record before we came on about what 6 we're looking at as the subject matter to ask you 7 about. I guess the first thing I would want to ask 8 you about is if you had a nuclear safety concern here 9 do you know how you would raise it.
10 Yes, I would suspect I have 11 a few avenues to raise a nuclear safety concern.
12 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: What would your 13 choices be? What would be tle one you would normally-14 choose?
15 The one that I would 16 -- normal-ly--choose-on-a -nuclearsafety concern,-it ---
17 depends on how immediate it was. If it was immediate, 18 my concern would go right to the shift supervisor in 19 the plant in the operations department.
20 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: If you didn't 21 perceive it as immediate.
22 I would probably take it up 23 through the ranks through first line supervisor, my 24 manager.
25 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: What other NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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7 1 mechanisms might be available that you could use?
2 There's the employee 3 concerns. They try to get you to go that route.
4 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: If you raised it 5 through your managers, would that be through the 6 corrective action program?
7 4 'No, verbally. I'm not a 8 big guy on writing notifications and that kind of 9 stuff.
10 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Have you raised 11 nuclear safety concerns before, any personally where 12 you have seen an issue that needed to be addressed?
13 14 "nuclear safety concerns?" Are we talking about 15 reactor-type safety? Are we talking about safety
... ....... .. .. . . 1 6 - where--there s-a -- adder_ out thereron the deck that 17 isn't tied down?
18 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: I think that 19 would fall into more the industrial safety area.
20 MR. FERDAS: Well, if it would affect a 21 piece of equipment from operating correctly which 22 failure on that would then get into would that cause 23 a trip of the reactor or cause a safety function not 24 to operate. I guess an example would be scaffolding 25 that would interfere with a valve opening or closing.
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8 1 Do you know what I mean? It would affect the 2 equipment in an adverse way. I think that's the 3 question.
4 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: If it's just an 5 industrial safety thing, that kind of applies too 6 because I see that falling into the same arena as far 7 as what's management's response to it. Are they 8 interested in resolving it? I guess what I'm getting 9 at is have you raised issues before through whatever 10 mechanism you chose and how were they handled?
11 I'm sure I have. You have 12 to remember too I'm one of the so I not only 13 raise issues myself -15a-t--lhris- e--i-s-sues-.
14 It can be myself. I can't think of anything off the 15 top of my head recently. We have this tagging thing
--- going-on-right~now._ _
17 I'm a member of the safety tagging 18 committee. That's how we get those things resolved, 19 through the committee. Generally when I see something 20 or hear about something, I do exactly what I said. I 21 go through the ranks and get it resolved. I can't 22 think of anything off the top of my head that was so 23 immediate that it had to be dealt with now.
24 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: When you go 25 through the ranks like that, how is the response to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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9 1 that? What is your experience?
2 It depends. Sometimes the 3 response is good. Sometimes it's not so good. It 4 depends on how the person you bring it up to sees it 5 as an immediate concern. That's usually the problem 6 we have on the bargaining unit side where it's not 7 such an issue with a manager as it would be with the 8 working guy.
9 I think that's probably one of the biggest
.0 complaints now. It's issues that are raised are put 11 on the back burner if you look at it in our 12 perspective. The management person will tell you 13 you're right and it is a concern ut--t-isno-t---t-op-14 thing on their agenda. Sometimes they are right.
15 Overall, I think the issues that are 16 .... raised-are -addressed.--I-can' -think ofanything that---
17 was serious that was never addressed according to 18 reactor safety or nuclear safety. It's always that 19 grey area where we think something should be taken 20 care of immediately and maybe they don't.
21 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Does it usually 22 get taken care of but it takes a while?
23 Yes, that's probably the 24 general sense from me personally and the people I 25 represent. It takes too long. The tagging issues NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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10 1 that we have here is probably the most prominent right 2 now. We just don't feel management is jumping on it 3 fast enough. Do you know what I mean?
4 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Right.
5 *We think it's an immediate 6 concern because it could lead to injury. There was a 7 day when they would stop work and correct it. They 8 prioritize tagging concerns now. If it's an 9 administrative-type thing, then it's not such a 10 serious thing as a physical tagging error. We feel 11 they are all the same. Administrative tagging error 12 can lead to something unsafe.
13 MR. FERDAS: Can you explain what you mean 14 by "administrative?"
15 Somebody didn't sign on a
.16-- tag-in--t-he-SAP-system-or-something --1-ike -that -- the -..--
17 tagging on the nomenclature was wrong even though it 18 was put on the right spot, what was written on the tag 19 was wrong, that would be something administrative.
20 The more serious ones would be a tag that wasn't hung 21 that should have been hung.
22 The recent ones were they pulled out what 23 they call PT drawers on the bus. It's the diffusers 24 that protect the bus work. They forgot to put a tag 25 on it. The guy pulled the drawer out hot for KV which NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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i1 1 is potential serious hazard.
2 MR. FERDAS: What unit was this on?
3 This would be Unit Ii. So 4 that's a hot item in our opinion. Of course, we go 5 berserk, the union guys. Of course, they realize it 6 was a concern and it was an issue. That was one in a 7 series of tagging issues that we've had at the start 8 of this outage.
9 We want to take a little bit more drastic 10 approach when something happens and stop work. We 11 want to stop work. We want people to sit down.
12 Anymore, work just continues on. They address it.
13 They fix it, but the work can't stop anymore like it 14 used to when it comes to these tagging issues.
15 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: How recent is
16 ---. that-change-where-it--used-to-stop-versus-how-it--is .__-
17 now? Is that recent?
18 Three or four years I 19 guess. When we had a tagging incident, we had a stand 20 down. Stand down was all work on the item stopped for 21 a period of time, stopped, came to a grinding halt.
22 You sat and you discussed it. You managed to come up 23 with a game plan, how to fix it, and roll it down.
24 Stand downs now are the boss comes out and 25 talks to you at the beginning of your shift or a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW.
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12 1 manager comes down and talks to everybody at the 2 beginning of the shift but things keep on rolling. Of 3 course, the union guys also feel it has more effect 4 when you stop. We don't stop around here anymore. We 5 have to keep rolling.
6 We've had four or five or six tagging 7 incidents since the outage started, three the first 8 three days. Anything from not hanging the tag in the 9 right spot or hanging the red blocking tags with 10 yellow blocking tags, a lot of administrative-type 11 errors. Our tagging committee of course jumps on it 12 right away and tries to find the problem, solution.
13 Most of the union guys that are on the committee feel 14 that enough isn't addressed immediately when we have 15 a tagging error anymore. They don't stop. They just 16 keep right on going. It's not like they don't ignore 17 it. They will fix the problem right then and then 18 move on.
19 Right now, we're at a heightened awareness 20 amongst ourselves that we're afraid something is going 21 to happen for numerous reasons with our tagging 22 system; lack of knowledge when people are hanging 23 tags, the complicated system that we have for tagging 24 in the SAP. That's probably the biggest thing we have 25 going on right now.
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13 1 MR. FERDAS: How are the suggestions from 2 the tagging group taken? I guess the goal is you 3 don't want to have any tagging errors.
4 W3 Right, no tagging errors.
5 MR. FERDAS: They seem to keep occurring.
6 So the corrective actions taken so far have not been 7 fully effective.
8 Exactly.
9 MR. FERDAS: Is. that due to not 10 implementing the recommendations that are coming from 11 the group or are you guys using those recommendations 12 and they are just not meeting the mark?
13
- Not meeting the mark. It 14 seems like it's a different situation each time. So 15 it poses a new set of problems where we need a new set 16 of corrective actions.
17 MR. FERDAS: So you are not getting 18 repeats. It's a new different phenomenon each time.
19 Yes.
20 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Do you find in 21 both your experience and helping out the people from 22 the union standpoint that the people raising those 23 concerns get retaliated against in any way? Do 24 supervisors treat the employees differently? Does it 25 make their work situation harder to deal with?
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14 1 *I have never seen it. I 2 have never heard of it. I have never had anybody 3 complain to me that because they raised a concern they 4 have been retaliated against.
5 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Have you had 6 people indicate to you that they didn't want to raise 7 concerns?
8 Yes, you have people that 9 are afraid to do that because they have it in their 10 heads that there's a notion that something might 11 happen to them, that they might get the tough jobs or 12 something like that. But personally, I haven't seen 13 it.
14 I have seen more ineffectiveness in 15 raising concerns than I have in retaliation. The 16 employee concerns program, you hear more people 17 complain about that after they go there. They really 18 didn't do anything for them. That's more of the 19 complaint.
20 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: You have heard 21 that before. Do they do something with their 22 complaint?
23 It depends on the person.
24 Some people let it drop. Some people keep right on 25 going. I recently was involved in employee concerns NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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15 1 where an accusation was made against a technician that 2 he might have reset an alarm in the detection area and 3 he didn't and he did not document it.
4 He took it to employee concerns. He 5 didn't really get the action at employee concerns. He 6 didn't get the response he wanted. It was a we took 7 care of it kind of thing. So he went to the QA 8 department. Both of us went to the QA department and 9 had the guy who investigated the situation look back 10 into it and remove any word or any inference of this 11 technician in the QA assessment report and got action 12 that way.
13 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Right.
14 We went to the source.
15 That's me. I'm the W)that's been here a long 16 time.- I-know who to go to and what buttons to push.
17 Would the average employee know to do that? Some 18 would. Some wouldn't depending on how they feel and 19 how their personality make up is.
20 You are talking to a guy that is not 21 afraid to walk in the Vice President's door and say 22 yes we have problems. Other employees I don't feel 23 would do that. The know pretty much how to 24 get things done. That's why a lot of people come to 25 the to handle things themselves.
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16 1 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Some people don't 2 have the personality to raise the issues I guess.
3 ni Right.
4 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Or they are 5 fearful or raising them whether that's reality or not, 6 right?
7 ) Right. As far as 8 retaliation, I have never seen it. We would not let 9 that happen. We would bitch until something happened 10 to that person. First line supervisors, for the most 11 part, listen to your concerns. Supervisors are not 12 the problem. It's when that concern gets up higher 13 where that manager or superintendent or whoever feels 14 it's a priority or not. That's where the conflict 15 comes in.
16 . SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Well, would those 17 higher levels then take it out on the first line 18 supervisors or take it out on people up the chain?
19 Have you ever heard of that happening? Do you 20 understand what I'm saying?
21 j Yes. No, I wouldn't say I 22 have ever heard of a situation where a supervisor got 23 in trouble for addressing an employee concern. No, I 24 would say for the most part the management down here 25 is very cognoscente of the fact that they would get in NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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17 1 big trouble if they tried to stifle people.
2 Like I said, they promote you to come 3 forward. It's whether their actions meet the needs of 4 the person who comes forward is a different question.
5 Sometimes it's legitimate, the guy's bitch is 6 legitimate. Sometimes it isn't. I can give you an 7 example, indicating lights on the equipment throughout 8 the station. One equipment operator's concern was 9 that the repair of the lights wasn't being taken care 10 of.
11 So he addressed the concern notification.
12 He didn't hear anything back from the notification.
13 So he kept going up the ladder until he finally got 14 hold of the first line supervisor. They pretty much 15 told him it is being taken care of. Indicating 16 lights,--there -are all different problems with them.
17 Some are that we don't have the parts. Some we have 18 on order. It's not a priority.
19 The switch 13 KB breaker has an indicating 20 light and it's not a priority. We're getting to it.
21 It's being put in the schedule. Well, that wasn't 22 good enough for him. He kept pushing and pushing to 23 the point where I had to go up to him and say that's 24 enough. You got your concern though. Maybe they are 25 right.
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18 1 Is there one indicating light that is 2 going to affect operation in this plant? The guy said 3 no, it's just an issue. I think it's a big issue, and 4 they are not moving fast enough. Okay. Move on. You 5 have bigger issues. Move on.
6 So that's where you run into so many 7 employees who feel their concerns are priority. Then 8 you try to explain to employees you have to let 9 management manage. Let them make the decision on 10 whether an indicating light needs to be changed II tomorrow or at the next outage.
12 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: They are not 13 necessarily looking at the big picture. They are 14 focused on their one concern.
15 I'll tell you what. Once 1I6- .... you-empower -these-employees -down-here, you-give -them-17 this notification process and stuff, as a boss you are 18 going to have a headache. These people think that's 19 their tool and you better take care of it. I think 20 that's one of the problems management has, explaining 21 to that employee that's not the big issue right now.
22 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Right. So 23 sorting through it, prioritizing it, somehow trying to 24 placate the employee and getting the thing taken care 25 of but taking care of what's important first.
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19 1 Ys 2 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: You think overall 3 they are trying to do that.
4 Yes, I think overall they 5 are trying to do that.
6 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: With the ECP 7 program, if somebody files a complaint with them or 8 goes to them, is it your experience that ECP gets back 9 to them and lets them know what's going on or they 10 find out eventually the results of that?
11 . Yes, I think for the most 12 part they get back to them. They let them know. I 13 think the biggest complaint is there really is no 14 action taken. My experience with them and being with 15 people with them, it's more of a fact finding type 16 -- things--That-guy-goes -and--looks -and- interviews-people---
17 and that's it. That has no --
18 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: No teeth to it.
19 M No teeth. Most people 20 don't use them anymore. I would say in my personal 21 experience that less and less people go to them 22 because of the results.
23 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: So there is 24 nothing significant coming out of there that would 25 cause people to go to them.
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20 1 *-. Right, and the other 2 problem you have which I try to explain to employees 3 is there are sometimes results where management can't 4 get back to you. A perfect example is we had a shift 5 supervisor a while ago who didn't know how to control 6 the way he talked in morning meetings. He was 7 verbally abusive to people.
8 He cursed. He cursed at you. People went 9 to employee concerns. Okay. We're taking care of it.
10 Now, that shift supervisor is out in the training 11 center now. Was that a result of all the complaints 12 he had or was it time for him to move? I tried to 13 explain management is not going to come back and tell 14 you we moved a guy because of that. They are just not 15 going to do that.
.. 6- SPECI-AL-AGENT--ANDERSON:--- -Right 17 IC-1 So sometimes the employee 18 concerns, maybe they are doing something and you they 19 can't come back and tell you. I would say there's a 20 case of that. I would say more times than not I hear 21 more people complaining that I really didn't get 22 satisfaction.
23 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: What about the 24 corrective action -- I'm sorry.
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21 1 issues are. Were they fair do you think?.
2 Who?
3 MR. FERDAS: Employee concerns on what 4 those issues were. Are they always wrong? Sometimes 5 you could say I could see where employee concerns took 6 that position.
7 That's the thing. They 8 don't take positions. Employee concerns just takes 9 facts whether they are supposed to or that's their 10 charge I don't know.
11 MR. FERDAS: They don't draw conclusions.
12 They don't. They will say 13 that we talked to this person andiiti-t s-ioefh-ing is 14 happening or that you are right and we gave the 15 recommendation to the manager. Employee concerns is 16--
-.. --more -..or---less- -the- -middle---man.-- ---. .doesn'-t It-- judge-17 anybody. That's one of the problems.
18 If you give it to the manager who doesn't 19 want to do anything about it, you as an employee are 20 blaming employee concerns that they didn't do 21 anything. Now, whether they are supposed to, I don't 22 know. It doesn't seem like to me they have, like you 23 said, the teeth. The people they put in there don't 24 have the power. I can tell you that. These guys are 25 just first line supervisors.
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22 I have sat in many of them. Many 2 bargaining unit persons take theirth them 3 when they go to employee concerns. (I have sat in many 4 of them. They take the facts. Then they go out and 5
get back to you and say I gave it to this guy.
MR. FERDAS: They are accurate in the fact 7 that they present to management.
8 -* Pretty much, yes.
- 9 MR. FERDAS: They are not hiding anything 10 or taking stuff out or anything.
11 ) I wouldn't say so. I have 12 never seen that. I would say in their defense if 13 there was any inaction it was because the person they 14 gave it to decided not to act on it. Like I said, 15 sometimes you just don't know. I got interviewed one
. 16 t.imen -b6cuse-a-complaint-arose -about-a -manager- who--had . . .
17 something to me off color off the job.
18 *This was a VP and somebody heard about it.
19 Then employee concerns came and'-nterviewed me. It 20 was no big thing with me. From what I heard, they 21 ostracized the guy. So in that case, somebody did 22 something to the guy. So you just don't know when 23 it's working I think.
24 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Right. What 25 about the corrective action program? I know that's NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS
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23 1 not your favorite tool. When it's used, is it 2 effective? Do they get at the issues? Do they 3 resolve the issues?
4 I don't know.
5 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: You don't have a 6 clue.
7
- Because I don't usually 8 file the corrective action. It just takes such a long 9 period of time. I can tell you most of the stuff that 10 I have been involved in with corrective actions. I 11 just don't know the results or take time to look at 12 the results when they come out. Sometimes I see 13 corrective action reports, but I don't know.
14 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Do you know 15 anybody that's filed one? Much like ECP, do people 16 get back to them to let them know what's being done 17 with it? Do you know?
18 I1. don't think of corrective 19 actions as being filed. Corrective action is 20 something that they do after they find out there's a 21 problem.
22 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: What do they use 23 here to report something?
24 Notification.
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24 1 notification would be put into the corrective action 2 program.
3 Yes. You hear complaints 4 across the board with notifications. They didn't do 5 anything. They did something. They add to my 6 notifications and I don't know about it. They put it 7 off to another manager that has nothing to do with it.
8 When it comes to notifications, you hear everything.
9 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Do they have a 10 way to track those on the computer system?
11 Yes.
12 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: So they enter 13 them in and then they show who they are assigned to 14 and everything like that.
15 1 Yes. Some guys like 16 myself, I'm not a big notification guy-other than the 17 fact that I use notifications to report my work when 18 I calibrate a switch that's off or something like 19 that. But use notifications as a complaint system, I 20 don't do that. A lot of people don't because they 21 don't feel --
22 MR. FERDAS: If you were walking in the 23 plant and you saw something that didn't look right, 24 what would you do?
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25 1 supervisor. Either he would write the notification or 2 instruct me to depending on the supervisor.
3 MR. FERDAS: Have you ever run into a 4 situation where they said that they would write the 5 notification and never wrote the notification?
6 Not that I know of.
7 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Would you even 8 know if you don't track them?
9 If I didn't follow up, I 10 wouldn't know.
11 MR. FERDAS: Just in case there was one 12 that you were passionate about and it was one that you 13 wanted to follow.
14 I don't know.
15 MR. FERDAS: Have you heard any stories of 16 any people being squashed as they say? They went to 17 the supervisor to write it and they say no I'm not 18 going to write that for you.
19 :) No, I have never heard 20 anything like that because you can write it yourself.
21 If a supervisor said that, okay, I would write it 22 myself. Most supervisors will tell you to write your 23 own. No, I have never heard that. It's more of a 24 complaint that it didn't get taken care of or it got 25 blow off or something like that. You hear that a lot.
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26 1 MR. FERDAS: The corrective action piece 2 to it.
3 Yes.
4 MR. FERDAS: Not identifying the problem.
5
- Right, no. The other big 6 complaint is the level gets reduced at management's 7 discretion. You hear guys complain. For instance in 8 this tagging issue, we felt it was a level one or 9 level two, serious. They made it an X, a three.
10 MR. FERDAS: It was a three and then an X.
ii *I'm not up on the 12 definitions. X means it's typographical or something 13 like that.
14 MR. FERDAS: Yes, it could be a procedure 15 change.
16 I heard that they 17 downgraded it from a couple of the guys on the tagging 18 committee. I guess they didn't think it was such a 19 serious thing. They downgraded the notification.
20 MR. FERDAS: Is there a big one that has 21 rolled up all of these issues?
22~~... ........... o 22 No.
23 MR. FERDAS: They are all threes and Xs.
24 Yes, unless you have what 25 they call a breakthrough event or something like that.
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27 1 I don't know what they categorize that.
2 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Do they do 3 anything here with regard to trending where they are 4 seeing the same issues arising? If they are seeing 5 several tagging issues or if they are seeing several 6 of them, then they would start giving them a higher 7 priority because of a trend developing.
8 MR. FERDAS: They have that option.
9 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: But that's 10 management discretion as well.
11 MR. FERDAS: Right, I believe so or an 12 employee can raise that this has happened a lot. They 13 can try to put it in as a level one or a level two.
14 At the morning review, then management could downgrade 15 it.
-SPECIAL--AGENT ANDERSONY--So-that -would be-......
17 a separate notification type thing.
18 MR. FERDAS: Right.
19 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Do one saying 20 we're seeing a lot of these.
21 MR. FERDAS: Yes, that's an option and 22 then it could be downgraded.
23 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: So these things 24 get entered in. You could follow them but you really 25 don't know eventually what happens.
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28 1 Yes, you can. There's a 2 way to find out what happens. I said I don't. I 3 can't remember the last one that was so big that it 4 was that important to me.
5 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: To follow.
6 Yes. If it was a safety 7 issue, I would go the other route. We would 8 immediately call safety and get something resolved.
9 Management encourages people to use notifications for 10 anything. I don't believe it's to document every 11 little thing that happens in the plant.
12 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Right.
13 UThen I think it slows down 14 the system. If we have a safety issue that's an 15 immediate concern, we're going right to the people and 16 -getting-them-out-there- and -we' re-resolving-it_.That.----- -
17 one wouldn't get turned into a notification.
18 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Okay. As far as 19 people being aware of the notification system and the 20 corrective action program, that's being accomplished 21 from management. They convey that. Everybody knows 22 what the ground rules are and what needs to be done.
23 I don't know of anybody 24 that doesn't know.
25 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: You say most NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
29 1 everybody knows about the ECP program.
SYes.
2 3 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Do you feel that 4 supervisors are pretty good about letting their people 5 know to please raise things up the chain of command?
6 NO Supervisors that I have 7 been in touch with, yes, they are pretty good at it.
8 They handle it pretty well on that. As a matter of 9 fact, you will hear supervisors make the suggestion 10 you have this option available to you when an employee 11 has something he is pretty passionate about.
12 I think the supervisors are pretty much on 13 board with that because they are going to get asked 14 that. When somebody gets in trouble or something, the 15 first thing the boss is going to say is did you tell 16- him --to get his -butt- out- to--employee- concerns or 17 employee assistance program or whatever else we have.
18 So they have to do that.
19 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: So you think 20 that's coming down from up higher. There's an 21 effective mechanism to get that down.
22 Yes, that's pretty much it.
23 It's just the end result. I don't know that everybody 24 is on board or happy with it all the time.
25 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: But you don't NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
30 1 think that the reason that people are not happy with 2 it is because management is trying to blow things off.
3 I hear you saying that it's more prioritization and 4 trying to keep things moving and running okay.
5 That's what it looks like 6 to me.
7 MR. FERDAS: Have you ever been asked to 8 work faster, to move faster than what you are doing or 9 to skip steps in procedures or anything like that to 10 get the work done?
11 No, I have never been asked 12 to skip steps. That would be suicide around this 13 place if you were a supervisor to do something like 14 that. To move faster, yes, guys we need to get this 15 done. I think that's the common complaint when we're 16 in LCOs. No supervisor says you are going to go out 17 there and get this done.
18 It's more the we're running an 18 hour2.083333e-4 days <br />0.005 hours <br />2.97619e-5 weeks <br />6.849e-6 months <br /> LCO 19 guys. We don't need to be sitting around the shop and 20 that kind of stuff. To say there is no time pressure, 21 sure there's time pressure. Everybody has their own 22 little perception of the time pressure. When you have 23 72 hours8.333333e-4 days <br />0.02 hours <br />1.190476e-4 weeks <br />2.7396e-5 months <br /> to get the diesel back in, they want you to 24 work. It's as simple as that.
25 MR. FERDAS: But nothing to compromise NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
31 1 safety.
2 iw w,* No, like I said, if it's 3 out there, I don't see it. None of theI 4 have reported back to me because we wouldn't allow it, 5 some supervisor telling some guy to do something just 6 to get it done. I haven't heard of it. You might 7 hear an employee say he pushed me along pretty fast to 8 get out there and he was really concerned and he made 9 me move faster and I screwed up and that kind of 10 stuff. You might hear something. But for somebody to 11 blatantly verbally, I haven't had that experience.
12 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: So the concept of 13 a culture of production over safety, you don't see 14 that. That doesn't take place here.
15 M I don't see it as the 16 culture. I think it's starting to happen a little 17 more. I just think since deregulation that you see 18 there is more of an emphasis on money, budget, units 19 being down than there used to be. Things are moving 20 along faster. I think some of the tagging issues are 21 because we don't stop anymore.
22 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: I was going to 23 ask if that couples in with that concept of no work 24 stoppages.
25 Yes, we keep right on going NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
32 1 because we have a time schedule. Management will also 2 tell you I think these guys can handle this load.
3 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: But I hear you 4 say that you feel that does have a little bit of an 5 adverse effect on safety.
6 Sure, it does. We see it 7 in this tagging thing right now which is the biggest 8 thing. I don't see it in people not building things 9 right, scaffolding not being built right or anything 10 like that.
11 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: But it's more of 12 that mind set of just sitting down and stopping and 13 going over this and making sure everybody is on the 14 same sheet of music and then getting back to work.
15 Yes, I thought it worked 16 when we used to do it. I thought it was a good tool.
17 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: What about 18 raising issues to the NRC? Do you think people feel 19 that's an avenue they have available? If that's their 20 first choice or their last choice, do you think that 21 people recognize that as an avenue they have 22 available?
23 Yes, my experience has been 24 if some individual perceives that if he went to the 25 NRC something would happen to them, I think that's his NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
33 1 own perception. I have never been stopped. I am not 2 only speaking for myself, but other people, I have no 3 problem telling a supervisor I want to go to the NRC.
4 Some use it as a button. Do you know what I mean?
5 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Right.
Because that supervisor is 7 like do you want me to tell about it. Can I take care 8 of it first? But I have never seen anybody stopped in 9 all the years I have been here.
10 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: You haven't seen 11 anybody that all of a sudden they are pulling all the 12 worst electrical jobs on the plant as a result of 13 doing that.
14 No, I have never seen it.
15 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: If people are 16 talked to by the NRC, do you think they are candid 17 with them? I guess the concern is sometimes they will 18 do these inspections where they will go in and talk to 19 people and say do you feel free to raise issues to the 20 NRC and will you be open with them.
21 Everybody always says yes. Then sometimes 22 they are doing an investigation and we ask that same 23 questions. Then they say we just don't feel like we 24 should stay away from them and stuff like that. Do 25 you see that as an issue at all?
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34 1.. I don't see that as an 2 issue. I'm sure there are individuals like that. I 3 don't see it as an issue where management has put that 4 on. I don't see that.
5 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Personality issue 6 then.
7 Yes, it's just some guys 8 are afraid to open their mouths.
9 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Or somebody is 10 going to be out to get me if I do.
11 Yes. The years I have been 12 here I have not seen it. I would say we would do 13 something about it if we heard somebody complaining 14 that they were being retaliated against because they 15 went to the NRC. Maybe it's out there, but I don't 16 see a manager putting themselves in that position.
17 They would be crazy.
18 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Have you seen any 19 formal or informal surveys done here with regard to 20 safety culture?
21 Tons of them.
22 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: What is your 23 thought of those surveys?
24 We don't see the results of 25 surveys. I think they are very ineffective. There's NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
35 1 too many. That's one of our problems. We get them 2 coming from all different ways in the company. The 3 employee benefits people want to do a survey. The 4 employee concerns people want to do a survey. EAP 5 wants to do a survey. Safety wants to do a survey.U 6 see more guys just tossing them. You get bombarded 7 with them. There hasn't been one for a while. For a 8 while there, it was every other time sit down and fill 9 out this survey. And I'm not sure how accurate they 20 are. It depends on what your mood is. Are you pissed 11 off today? How are you going to answer that survey?
12 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: As far as you 13 . .know in -the -ones -you- have seen V-u havnn,'--yu' aenn-en s -the 14 results of them anyhow to know how they came out.
15 The last one I saw was the
-16 big-- corporate one.-- - can-t -remember -what it - was 17 about. It was the overall employee attitude. I saw 18 those results because they posted them in the big 19 PSE&G Newsipaper. But other ones I don't remember 20 seeing results.
21 MR. FERDAS: What about five months ago?
22 There was a safety conscious work environment on 23 outlook. I don't know if you saw it. Did you see 24 that one?
25 I don't remember. It was NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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36 1 on outlook.
2 MR. FERDAS: Yes, it was on the outlook 3 where you go to the website. I don't know how many 4 computers you have near here, the electronic 5 newsletter.
6 Yes, it's the same thing.
7 I'm sure some of them have been there. I can tell you 8 I don't look at that all the time. Some guys don't 9 have access to computers, so putting their results on 10 the computer is ineffective. The bargaining unit guys 11 don't have their own computers. They have shop 12 computers. Some bargaining unit departments don't 14 do the results on the computer, it would be 15 ineffective.
16 -SPECIAL- AGENT .ANDERSON: What' s your 17 overall assessment of the safety culture at Salem/Hope 18 Creek?
19 Right now, I would say 20 overall the culture is better. Is it better than a 21 month ago? I don't know. It's definitely better than 22 two years ago, three years ago without a doubt. I 23 have seen results of that. The safety of PPE, 24 protective equipment, your hardhat, your glasses, 25 wearing harnesses, we are so far better than we were NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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37 1 just five to six years ago in all that stuff, use of 2 ladders, definitely better. Some of our information 3 coming from our job safety observations prove that.
4 MR. FERDAS: What about the equipment 5 performance? What would you say, gotten better, 6 gotten worse?
7 We're running longer. So 8 I would assume -- I have no --
9 MR. FERDAS: Generalization.
10 Yes, I have no proof. For 11 a while there, we were running breaker to breaker. We 12 had some problems in the last couple of months. Other 13 than that, I would -say that's a barometer. B-ut--haVe-14 no statistics or anything to say this is getting worse 15 or that's getting worse. You hear general 16 complaints. For instance, service water at 17 Hope Creek, you hear the mechanics complain about that 18 right now. There should be some upgrades. They are 19 letting things go a little bit there. Overall, you 20 always hear parts problems and that kind of stuff, 21 don't have the parts. They sold everything in the 22 warehouse or whatever that was. I can't get this. I 23 can't get that. You always hear stuff like that.
24 The general joke across the island is if 25 you don't have the part, it's out in the warehouse.
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38 1 They put it on surplus and they set it out there so it 2 would be sold under their sale. That's the general 3 joke. Equipment, I don't know. I don't see us work 4 on any more stuff. We do PMs on electrical side of 5 the house and I don't see it getting worse overall.
6 MR. FERDAS: Do you have an example of the 7 service water from the mechanics?
8 i just heard them talking 9 about it the other night. I don't recall. It was the 10 guys over in the Hope Creek shop talking. They were 11 bitching to their supervisor about a couple of things 12 needing to be done out there or something.
13 MR*-FERDAS: .. screens ....... . ...
14 Yes, that's what it was 15 because they had to go down inside the -- screens 16 because they had a problem with one of them. 'It was 17 a safety concern. That's how I got involved in it.
18 They were concerned about going down inside the --
19 screens when they have this methane gas problem and 20 the fact that we have to make sure the fire department 21 is out there sniffing and stuff like that. They got 22 into it a little bit about that. That's what it was.
23 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Do you have any 24 knowledge of people speaking to NRC or INPO or 25 something like that and management wanting to debrief NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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39 1 them after they have had those contacts?
2 Management asks us and 3 usually always asks us to tell them what an INPO guy 4 says to you when they come on site. They don't make 5 it mandatory. They would appreciate it. If they ask 6 you questions while you are on the job, come back and 7 tell your supervisor so we can address the issues.
8 That's pretty much been the norm.
9 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: How about with 10 NRC? Would it be the same thing?
11 I've never heard that. I'm 12 trying to think of a situation with NRC. Yes, I would 13 probably say it would be the same thing. I do know 14 one situation where -- Yes, I think so. The NRC isn't 15 out there that much talking though.
16 I remember a situation where NRC was 17 concerned about place keeping marks in a -- (Tape 18 flip.) This was years ago though. It's nothing 19 recent. I remember the guy saying well it's the same 20 thing I use on procedure. The NRC guy said you should 21 have four. You should have one for each.
22 I remember him going back and telling his 23 supervisor because he thought that's what he should 24 do. If you get questioned, tell us so we can correct 25 it. So I would say yes. If anybody questions you, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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40 1 come on back. I think that's pretty much the norm, 2 especially with all the INPO guys that we have here 3 that come here periodically.
4 They want to know. They tell you before 5 INPO comes here we would appreciate you coming back 6 and telling us. What are they talking about? What 7 are their questions? They don't put on an air that 8 they are trying to cover up or anything.
9 They tell you right out we want to know so 10 when we get debriefed by INPO we know the situation.
11 That's what they tell you because every day at the end 12 of the day INPO has their little debriefing thing or 13 whatever they call it. So we know the situation so we 14 can explain why this guy did that or did that.
15 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: What else along 16 the lines of safety culture issues? What are we 17 missing asking about? Are there other issues that we 18 should be concerned about? Do you know anybody that 19 would- have information on this that would be 20 beneficial as far as things not working right?
21 .) The guy who is following me 22 up is the guy who is going to tell you everything you 23 need to know about safety on this island, 24 He is our ho 25 has been doing it for a couple of years.
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41 1 Anything you want to know, he will have 2 your complaints. He'll tell you what the problems are 3 more than I can. He'll tell you what he thinks is 4 effective and ineffective. But overall safety-wise, 5 I think we're a lot better than we were.
6 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Mark, do you have 7 anything else?
8 MR. FERDAS: No.
9 SPECIALAGENT ANDERSON: I'll just put the 10 closing blurb on here and we'll be done.
11 W have I or any other NRC representative 12 threatened you in any manner or offered you any 13 rewards in return for this information?
14No 15 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Have you provided 16 this information freely and voluntarily?
17 Yes.
18 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: Is there anything 19 else you would want to add to the record at this time?
20 N.0 21 SPECIAL AGENT ANDERSON: The time is now 22 5:25 p.m. and the interview is concluded.
23 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 24 concluded at 5:25 p.m.)
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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CERTIFICATE This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the matter of:
Name of Proceeding: Interview of Docket Number: 1-2003-051F Location: Hancock's Bridge, NJ were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission taken by me and, thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under the direction of the court reporting company, and that the transcript is a true and accurate record of the foregoing proceedings as recorded on tape(s) provided by the NRC.
Anne Marie Smith Official Transcriber Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 wwwvnealrgross.com