ML061790632
| ML061790632 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Salem, Hope Creek  |
| Issue date: | 11/06/2003 |
| From: | NRC/OI |
| To: | |
| References | |
| 1-2003-051F, FOIA/PA-2005-0194, NRC-1217 | |
| Download: ML061790632 (57) | |
Text
Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
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Docket Num iber: 1-2003-051 F Location: Hancock's Bridge, New Jersey Date: Thursday, November 6, 2003 Work Order No.: NRC-1217 Pages 1-55 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433 exemprdancewth the f2f Act, exemption-s '.2c ,090C / ýy
1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
4 OFFICE OF THE INVESTIGATIONS
.5 INTERVIEW 6 -----------------------------x 7 IN THE MATTER OF:
8 INTERVIEW OF Docket No.
9 1-2003-051F 10 (CLOSED) 11 ------------------------ x 12 Thursday, November 6, 2003 13 14 PSEG 15 NRC Resident's Office 16 Hancock's Bridge, NJ 17 18 The above-entitled interview was conducted 19 at 5:25 a.m.
20 21 BEFORE:
22 SPECIAL AGENT EILEEN NEFF, OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS 23 ALSO PRESENT:
24 SENIOR PROJECT ENGINEER SCOTT BARBER 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 PROCEEDINGS 2 5:25 A.M.
3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Today's date is 4 November 6, 2003. The time is approximately 5:25 a.m.
5 Speaking is Special Agent Eileen Neff, U.S. NRC, 6 Region 1, Office of Investigations. Also present is 7 Region 1, Senior Project Engineer Scott Barber.
8 What follows will be an interview with 10 11 The subject matter of this interview 12 concerns the safety conscious work environment, the 13 safety culture at Salem. This is an assessment being 14 conducted by Region 1. It does not have a potential 15 specific violation associated with it. There is no 16 subject of investigation. Is that all understood for 17 you?
18Yes.
19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What I would like to 20 do is place you under oath at this point. If you 21 would raise your right hand. Do you swear that the 4
22 testimony you're about to provide is the truth, the 23 whole truth and nothing .but the truth so help you God?
24 'Ys 25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: For the record if you NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 would state your full name and provide your date of 2 birth and Social Security Number.
3- . .- im . . ... ,i 4 What else do you need?
5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Social, please.
7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay, and a work 8 telephone number?
9M0 10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And. home telephone 11 number.
13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Let me start 14 with this. My understanding of the events that led us 15 to this interview is that you had learned of the 16 assessment that Region 1 was doing regarding the 17 safety culture. And I got word that you wanted to be 18 interviewed?
19 .\That's s correct.
20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Then when we met this 21 morning just a little while ago, you gave me a 22 summary, it looks like a number of issues. It's a 23 page that you prepared. It's dated 11/6/03 for this 24 meeting specifically with me. And you've got 25 observations of plant management, issues regarding NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 schedule pressure. It's a one-page document, 2 basically.
3 That's correct.
4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Let's start with it, 5 what is it, that you had concerns regarding the 6 culture and I know that these are more specific 7 issues, what would you say, if you have concerns, 8 where your concerns focus regarding the safety 9 culture?
10 T M Where the management focus 11 lies. I can break this down. Picking on long-term 12 plant deficiencies. I don't know if it's a money 13 issue, the plant has been around for 25, 26 -- running 14 for 25, 26 years, how difficult it is to get parts, I 15 don't know about that. But certain things that tend 16 to go on forever that you probably wouldn't do in your 17 own home.
18 I have an example of the Unit I boric acid 19 batch tank level device. If one was to look at it 20 right now, you'd see that it's a piece of Tigon tube.
21 Now when something breaks, I don't expect the company 22 have the part on hand right away, but if you look 23 at the documentation behind the notification and the 24 order number, you'll find out that the plan to fix 25 this goes way back and so how far back? And that's NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 why I know this is specifically about safety, but if 2 I want to look a problem up because I walk around the 3 plant, that's my job.
4 My job is to find things that are wrong 5 and report them and then to have a system where I can 6 look to see what's the progress. And that's why I 7 mentioned -- I have listed here SAP.
8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: SAP system?
9 NWi SAP system. And I wrote 10 down here, "you have to learn the secrets of how to 11 research previously identified equipment deficiencies.
12 What I mean is when you use that system, it isn't --
13 you have to -- it's almost like one of those kid's 14 video games where you have to know where all the 15 little blips are to find the key messages.
16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: We're hearing that 17 the SAP just, in general, is just not user friendly.
18 ,%now I'll tell you what, maybe 19 that could be one thing, but if there is an ability 20 for the people that manage this system to make it 21 difficult for me to supply the information I need, 22 then it becomes a problem for me. It's not just okay, 23 we need you to go out and identify problems.
24 Well, okay, if I've identified the problem 25 and it's been there for who know how long and then I NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 can't figure out what the plant is, then I'm stuck.
2 So if it is a -- the batch tank is part of the CVCS 3 system which is a --
4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Now, you're saying 5 that the people that manage the system and they make 6 it difficult to find what you need to do to do your 7 job, who specifically is managing that? Is there 8 anybody you can control?
9 I don't know if it's the --
10 what they call IT, Information Technology. I don't 11 know.
12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Whoever controls and 13 supports the system?
14 Right.
15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What kind of training 16 did you have on it?
17 Well, we get training on it, 18 but it's not specific to everything, you know what I 19 mean? It's like, first of all, we used to have a 20 system, a computerized system called MMIS and I forget 21 what the acronym stands for, but MMIS. I can get 22 through that thing and findwhatever I need. I can go 23 back to 1963, if I had to. You know what I'm saying?
24 I can get there. I can -- and if I'm writing a new 25 work order or a new notification, I can give them a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 complete history on that component, whereas now, it's 2 strange. You have to pull up the screen looking for 3 what the problems are and it's like nothing is there.
4 But if it's the fact that I need more training, then 5 certainly. But I don't think it should be that 6 un-user friendly.
7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: When you say you pull 8 it up and you're trying to find out what the problems 9 are, but nothing is there, is it that it's there, but 10 it takes longer to find it?
11 don' t 12 .... SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Have you known that 13 there's a problem that exists that just doesn't get 14 you into the system?
15 . Yes, that's correct, second 16 part.
17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: That there are 18 problems that exist that don't get entered into SAP?
19 As far as how I know how to 20 use that system, all:right? But even if I go to a 21 supervisor, it just looks nefarious for anybody -- if 22 I go to a supervisor. He's got say try here or try 23 there. You shouldn't have to try 18 different spots 24 to find out if anything is written. It should be 25 clear.
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1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Right, and I 2 understand what you're saying, but in issues if you 3 can't find it and you know that there's a problem 4 existing and you think a notification was written, has 5 it been that it didn't exist or was it just that you 6 didn't look in 17 of the 18 spots?
7 Second thing.
8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You will find it 9 eventually, is that what you're saying?
10 I'm saying maybe, if you 11 look at all those 17 or 18 or however many sports 12 there are.
13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.
14 I'm not even sure how many 15 spots there are to tell you the truth.
16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Let me ask you this 17 way. Are you aware of any instances where there are 18 problems with equipment or anything that should have 19 been entered into the system from a safety perspective 20 that didn't get entered into the system?
21 -- No, not specifically. It's 22 just that -- well --
23 MR. BARBER: If we could, I'd like to 24 explore some of these issues you have written down 25 here?
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1A Okay. You were talking, the 2 first thing you mentioned was you were talking about 3 a temporary mod for the Unit 1 boric acid batch tank.
4 It sounds like you're going about some Tigon tube?
5 ),**:
I Ye s.
6 MR. BARBER: They're using Tigon instead 7 of whatever the installed instrumentation --
8 Yes, that's correct.
9 MR. BARBER: I'm presuming from the way 10 you describe that that's been a long-standing problem.
11 Yes.
12 MR. BARBER: It's been around for a long 13 time?
14 Over a year. Overprobably 15 a year and a half. But the thing is -- here you go 16 again. I don't like the idea of something being long-17 term to begin with and then if you have -- I'm not 18 going to use the word audacity, I shouldn't do'that.
19 Audacity. To proceduralize that, it's like taking it 20 to the next step. It is, in my mind --
21 MR. BARBER: Do you happen to know, is 22 there still a temp. mod outstanding on this?
23
- 1 Oh ye7.
~-7 24 MR. BARBER: If I went to a temp. mod log 25 would it show this?
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1 N W You can walk right in the 2 plant right now.
3 MR. BARBER: No, no, I believe that I 4 could see it, but if I looked in the log would it show 5 it? Because sometimes what happens is if you 6 proceduralize a temp mod, if you take it out of the 7 temp mod book, you say --
8 -! Oh, I see what you're 9 saying.
10 MR. BARBER: You've kind of made it a part 11 of the installed plant equipment.
12 Then I would have to ask you 13 guys, but you see, this is a two way interview or a 14 one way interview?
15 MR. BARBER: No, I mean.
16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: For clarification, go 17 ahead and ask your question.
18 For a simple level device, 19 to make it a T mod (Phonetic) --
20 MR. BARBER: No, the T mod would be Tigon 21 2, in place of that.-
22 Okay, well then how long is 23 too long or how long is customary or how long -- I 24 don't know, but certainly over a year..
25 MR. BARBER: It's supposed to be NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 commensurate with the safety significance.
2 *It's a batch tank --
3 MR. BARBER: Again, we would have to 4 review it before making any judgment about it. How 5 about the second item, is that service water four or 6 five P surveillance versus service water 17 leakage?
7 Oh yes. Well, you'd have to 8
9 MR. BARBER: I'm not familiar with the 17.
10 What is --
11 Okay, the service water 12 base, the valves that connect one base to the other 13 are the 17s.
14 MR. BARBER: Okay.
15 That's a good thing, so you 16 can share.
17 But in the case where you have one of 18 those bays gets a leak, you then want to isolate from 19 the other bay and that's where the 17s come in.
20 MR. BARBER: Okay.
21 So when you're doing a 405 22 P on a service water pump, those 17s play a big part.
23 MR. BARBER: Okay.
24 And if they leak, if they 25 leak.
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1 MR. BARBER: Aren't they normally kept 2 open?
3 Memo Normally kept open, right.
4 MR. BARBER: Okay.
5 But during a test, it's not, 6 right.
7 MR. BARBER: There's two in parallel?
8
- One on each bay so it's like 9 a double --
10 MR. BARBER: I should say two in series.
11 In series, right.
12 MR. BARBER: Two in series.
13 That's correct.
14 MR. BARBER: So you're saying if both of 15 those valves are shut and there's a potential you 16 could have a leak through to both of them?
17 That's correct.
18 MR. BARBER: Okay.
19 And if you do, then it's 20 affecting the pump run that you're surveilling.
21 MR. BARBER: That's true.
22 And so they have 23 proceduralized a long-standing problem. It's the 24 leakage. I'll try to explain. You'd have to look at 25 the procedure.
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1 MR. BARBER: I think I have, actually.
2 For some reason I think I've gone through this before.
3 INPO has made it a big 4 issue, blah, blah, blah. But it's been around a long 5 time and they actually have proceduralized a method 6 now whereas we're going to measure the leakage and the 7 leakage at one point was so bad that the pipe that was 8 carrying the leakage to the sump wasn't really big 9 enough to handle the flow.
10 MR. BARBER: All right.
11 -j All right? And then they 12 go on in the back of the procedure and they make a 13 chart.
14 MR. BARBER: Okay.
15 It's going to correct the 16 head by .0 something and you can't even read .0 17 something on the gauge that you're reading.
18 MR. BARBER:- Okay.
19 W You understand what I'm 20 saying?
21 MR. BARBER: Yes, I think I do.
22 How far do you take that?
23 MR. BARBER: Okay.
24 So long-standing issue --
25 MR. BARBER: Well, this could be
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1 something. We have to look into it. Okay. Because 2 it affects the ability of the system to function 3 during accident conditions and that could be an issue.
4 Well, the reason you do pump 5 surveillance is to make sure the pump is --
6 MR. BARBER: Put out an adequate flow.
7 Right.
8 MR. BARBER: During design basis 9 conditions.
10 Right.
11 MR. BARBER: Okay.
12 So if it's the big cost item 13 to fix the 17s and I bet it would be because that's 14 taking a whole bay out, but hey, I'm not the money 15 guy.
16 MR. BARBER: Okay. Do you know how big 17 those valves are?
18 x - Big.
19 MR. BARBER: Are they?
20 I don't know, big.
21 MR. BARBER: Like 20 inch, something like 22 that?
23 Real big.
24 MR. BARBER: Are those butterflies?
25 Yes.
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1 MR. BARBER: Okay. How about this next 2 item you mention, you said use of additional receipts 3 to monitor plant deficiencies instead of plant 4 equipment.
5 - Right, the instance that I 6 mention there is 3 Unit. 3 Unit is the gas turbine.
7 MR. BARBER: Okay.
8 The gas turbine becomes real 9 important if you.have a service water header out and 10 you lose off-site power, blah, blah, blah. You need 11 that 3 Unit, right? To start back up again.
12 MR. BARBER: Okay.
13 Now, the air compressors, if 14 you walk out to the plant now you'll see a truck, a 15 nitrogen truck sitting out there. A long-term or 16 long-standing problem. Those compressors haven't been 17 working right. Okay? So what they do is they'll fix 18 this one and then that one, they'll half fix it.
19 Anyway, you always have just one compressor when 20 there's supposed to be two, right? And instead of 21 fixing, this thing has been like this I would have to 22 say for years. Okay? -7C 23 Now they park a nitrogen truck out there 24 as a backup. Holy smokes!
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1 in place of the starting air compressor?
2 IYes, if you need it. Right 3 It's like com eon, you have two compressors, fix the 4 compressors.
5 MR. BARBER: What's the reason for not 6 fixing them?
7 *I don't know. Money? Like 8 I said at the beginning, the plant is 25, 26 years 9 running, right?
10 MR. BARBER: Right.
11 1 Obsolescence? I don't know.
12 Is it just money? It seems to me it's just a 13 compressor, guys, come on. But if you back that --
14 very similar. Like proceduralizing problems, 15 additional reading sheets so that it looks like we're 16 keeping an eye on it. It's like come on, fix it, so 17 we don't have to --
18 MR. BARBER: Okay.
19 * , That's the major point with 20 that.
21 MR. BARBER: So the nitrogen truck that's 22 out there is really a back up to the starting air 23 compressor, is that what you're saying?
24 , jThat's correct. You know, 25 you could look up the safety importance of that 3 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 Unit.
2 MR. BARBER: All right, what about this --
3 we already talked about the secrets. How about the 4 periodic removal of unsightly EMS tags by management, 5 EMS tags.
6 Oh yes. I've seen it 7 before. I didn't give you how long I've been here, so 8 I'll do that now real brief, 9
" I worked my way up to the 10 11 I gave it up. It wasn't for me.
12 But -- so t - - no s 13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.
14 Anyway - -
15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What year were you 16 licensed?
17 18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: '-So for 19 MANW.n there?
20 *** Yes.
21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And have you been an 22 4wisince that time, around or so?
23 Yes.....
24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: All Salem side?
25 m" " All Salem. So let me see, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 I've seen this before. You don't see the management 2 people walk around and doing it, but if you've had the 3 unit for several days in a row and then someone is 4 coming to visit -- see, the idea of the EMS tag, you 5 know it's just like you're at mid-loop, so you put 6 signs up, hey guys, we're mid-loop, hey guys, EMS tag, 7 so that you don't have 10 people in a row wasting time 8 identifying in the SAP, S-A-P system the same problem.
9 Right?
10 MR. BARBER: Right.
11 1 You don't waste time. The 12 other thing is I can pull up the number and look at 13 the big description of the problem, right? But at the 14 same time if you've got a lot of them hanging around, 15 what does it look like? Does it look like things 16 aren't getting fixed? Does it look like a sore thumb?
17 So one day they're there, the next day they're not and 18 if you go to the same component you wonder, hey, it 19 wasn't fixed. It's just an EMS tag, so did it fall 20 off or --
21 MR. BARBER: Have you ever seen anybody 22 take an EMS tag off?
23 W No, but we have definitely 24 noticed, right, in the plant, EOs, we've seen this 25 before.
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1 MR. BARBER: So you've noticed it, but you 2 don't know who's doing it?
2! Right.
3 4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: How frequently would 5 you say that happened?
6 -Well, I'd have to say if 7 they have a big INPO team coming, right? That's when 8 I've seen them. INPO --
9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So you saw a pattern 10 before the INPO review?
11 SEILA Yes, yes.
12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Did the tags 13 reappear?
14 No. Off forever.
15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: They're gone, they 16 staff off whether the equipment is repaired or not?
17 Right, off forever.
18 SPECIAL-AGENT NEFF: And what about --
19 what kind of equipment would you say this has happened 20 with? Can you give us some examples?
21 No, I can't be sure that --
22 all right, as far as the safety side, but I've 23 definitely see it on the secondary side which is the 24 turbine plant, but I don't know if it's a habit that 25 they would -- all over. Okay?
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1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So specifically it 2 happens in the turbine unit you're saying?
3 ] " Yes.
4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What kind of pieces 5 of equipment does this appear?
6 i It could be anything, pump 7 leakage, yeah, leakages, pump systems.
8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: When was the most 9 recent INPO review?
10 Was it right before the 11 summer? I think it was right before the summer. As 12 a matter of fact, the 405P that I mentioned, the SW17 13 leakage, guess who was involved with that when INPO 14 was here? Me. I must have drawn the shortest straw 15 for that day, but when they were observing this 16 leakage it was like they couldn't believe it, but --
17 MR. BARBER: They saw it in the field?
18 Yes. It's like you get a 19 step in the procedure where it mentions that.. You 20 call the control room and it's like okay, we know what 21 to do. We go all over the procedure because we've got 22 to finish the test, blah, blah, blah. And then at 23 that point INPO has a million more questions like come 24 on, I give you all the information I have. It's right 25 here. I'm going by the procedure, but it becomes a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 big deal, right, for my management and I don't know 2 mentioning particular names is a bad thing or not, but 3 if I go through the control room and say hey, this is 4 what we've got, do we go forward, do we go -- stop, 5 what do we do? And the Co talked to this one, they 6 all come back and say we've gone ahead. And then INPO 7 guy doesn't like and he goes back and talks to 8 somebody and the on the exit interview, I get a visit 9 from a 'asking me what happened? It's 10 like come on, guys. Who is missing? Everybody is 11 here. You know what happened. It's just -- I don't 12 get it. Why should omeback to me asking me 13 questions? Come on. It's right in the procedure.
14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What kind of 15 questions was he asking?
16 Because the INPO guy was 17 upset about -- I'm not sure particularly what this 18 step was, but it had to do with that leakage.
19 SPECIALAGENT NEFF: Okay.
20 And the fact that -- oh, 21 here it is. He measured this leakage and remember I 22 said the pipe wasn't sized big enough to handle the 23 leakage, so one of the things you do is you measure 24 that leakage first before you start the guts of the 25 procedure. Right after you do that, the next thing NEAL R. GROSS I COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 you do is you're filling a vent or you're piping, so 2 you don't hammer it, right? Along with the 3 instrumentation lines. Well, the instrumentation, 4 right, when we're not doing the tests, all of the 5 drain valves are open. Well, as I'm doing this thing 6 with the flow, guess what's coming out of the 7 instrumentation lines, right, water. It's already 8 vented because the leakage is so great, it's filling 9 up pipes. So this guy sees it. He's going what's 10 going on? -I said we're going to get to that in the 11 next part of the procedure. He can't believe this 12 stuff, right? So apparently, he goes back and I 13 express myself, right? It's like come on.
14 So he must have gone back when they had 15 their little pow wow with management and then I guess 16 .,-or whoever it was, but came back and 17 says what happened? What happened? So it's . you 18 know what goes on here. Why are you --
19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You thought he knew 20 about the condition and he was acting surprised for 21 you?
22 It's like first of all, like 23 I said, how ridiculous is it, you get to a point --
24 check this out. Before, when that SW-17 leakage was 25 a little bit, they said you can go on with the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 procedure, it's a procedure step, by the way, it says 2 as long as the installed sump in that bay can handle 3 that leakage, it's okay.
4 Well, the leakage gets worse and you know, 5 then they install on top of the permanent sump, they 6 put another sump. You'll see the hoses, if you go 7 down there. Every time I run this test, there's a 8 temporary sump. So now the procedure says and now as 9 long as the permanent sump and the temporary sump can 10 keep up with it, you can go ahead. It's like --
11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: How long has it been 12 a problem?
13 It's got to be years. How 14 many years? I don't know.
15 MR. BARBER: Was it ever okay? Was there 16 ever a situation that you can recall where the leakage 17 was either minimal or not at all?
18 Yes. How far back, I'm not 19 sure. You know, if you look at the 405P for service 20 water pumps in this plant, you will see, if you look 21 up the history of it, how many different methods we 22 have used in this plant to test these pumps.
23 MR. BARBER: Do you happen to know there 24 is an operator/work-around procedure, there's actually 25 an operator/work-around log. Is this in that or do NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 you know?
2 :1 We don't even use the word 3 work-around any more.
4 MR. BARBER: You don't use it, but what 5 you are describing is, in fact, a work-around.
6 - How about the Tigon tube on 7 that?
8 MR. BARBER: That's a work-around too of 9 sorts. It really is. It's the same. What you're 10 doing is putting some alternate means of level 11 indication in place for the installed instrumentation.
12 In this case you've got a situation where you have 13 leakage through a valve that you're collecting and 14 it's of such a magnitude that you had to install a 15 second sump instead of fixing the underlying problem.
16 000-But to proceduralize that on 17 top, it's like come on.
18 MR. BARBER: Okay.
19 *) I don't know.
20' MR. BARBER: Okay.
21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What did -- when 22 ;talked to you about that regarding the INPO 23 review, when did that occur, earlier this year?
24 It was before the exit 25 interview before the last INPO visit. When they do an NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 exit interview with the INPO guys and all the head 2 honchos, right, and it was right before.
3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So month and year, do 4 you have an idea?
5 I I'm sorry, I'd rather not 6 give you bum dope. It was before the summer.
7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: This year?
- Yes.
9 MR. BARBER: So spring of 2003?
10 Yes.
11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Now he was coming to 12 you asking what happened there.
13 Yes. What I said to him 14 was, I said', I said if he, the INPO whoever, 15 doesn't understand anything, bring him in here right 16 now and we'll discuss it. A ,left. Never saw 17 back again. Come on, if there's a question -- because 18 the guy was right in the service water bay with me, 19 doing the pump test. It's like if he wasn't sleeping, 20 then he had to to know exactly what was going on. He 21 did. He was watching every move I made.
22 So I don't think it's the INPO guy that 23 doesn't understand. I think it'-s that doesn't 24 understand something or wants me to say it different 25 or I don't know. But I say bring the other guy in NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 here right now and we'll talk.
2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You said he wants you 3 to say it different, what is that?
4 I don't 1* know what the 5 problem is.
6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.
7 . It seemed pretty straight 8 forward to me. Okay? But --
9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Is that the end of 10 it?
11 *That was the end of it.
12 Didn't hear anything more.
13 MR. BARBER: How about some of these other 14 issues? You've got getting the bean for starting 15 surveillances at the end of the shift. What do you 16 mean by that?
17 kay, if the surveillance is 18 on the schedule to do, whether it's this shift or the 19 next shift, right, it appears sometimes that the shift 20 that wants to get what we call a bean, credit, for 21 getting that surveillance started.
22 MR. BARBER: Started? Not complete?
23 Oh no. Like a diesel run 24 that takes an hour. Why would you start it a half an 25 hour before the end of the shift.
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1 MR. BARBER: Okay.
2 'Why would you do that? Now 3 what that leads to, what that leads to is improper 4 turnaround or turnover of that job, right? You've got 5 a diesel that's running. It's not like it's going to 6 run. It's running right now. Is that a good time?
7 If it's only an hour surveillance and when I say an 8 hour9.259259e-5 days <br />0.00222 hours <br />1.322751e-5 weeks <br />3.044e-6 months <br /> surveillance, it usually runs a total of two 9 hours1.041667e-4 days <br />0.0025 hours <br />1.488095e-5 weeks <br />3.4245e-6 months <br />.
10 MR. BARBER: Okay.
ii *By the time you clean it up 12 at the end. But why do it at the end of the shift and 13 then have a possible bad turnover? Because the engine 14 is running as you're doing the turnover.
15 MR. BARBER: I don't understand the bean 16 concept. That some of the shift gets kudos for 17 starting the surveillance so that's what this some 18 good practice -- look at all the surveillances that --
19 That's right.
20 MR. BARBER: That this shift-did and why 21 aren't you doing as many as this shift? Is that the 22 gist of it?
23 0. That's it. That is it.
24 MR. BARBER: So you're saying it's kind of 25 a bad practice because there could be some performance NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 problems or whatever just because of the way --
2 Let me put it to you another 3 way. The bean that I talk about -- if you have, as a 4 supervisor, you've got the on-coming supervisor coming 5 in and you're going to turn over to that supervisor, 6 if all your guys are in the field, you tend to look 7 good. I don't know, as opposed to not looking good?
8 And being safer? Not having a rotten turnover with 9 the diesel running? Take your choice. Who's afraid 10 of what a guy right above them is going to think?
11 Come on, be a man. I don't get it.
12 Do you understand what I'm saying?
13 MR. BARBER: I think so.
14 K Let's play craps here. But 15 hey, so if a man says go down and do it, I go down and 16 do it, right? Does it make sense to me? No.
17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: How does that play 18 through? I mean when the surveillance is started, but 19 it can't reasonably be finished on a shift, what 20 happens next?,
21 *. Let me -- I'll make it 22 crystal clear. Before I do that surveillance run, I 23 have a one on one, right? It's usually the control 24 operator who is in the control room, me and the boss, 25 right? We've got the procedure. We've got prints, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 whatever we need. Right? If it's -- but if it's a 2 deal where I have to be relieved on station and after 3 my regular hours are up, the next guy coming in 4 doesn't get that kind of brief. He does not get that 5 kind of brief. I am turning over to him while the 6 engine is running for what good reason? If it's an 7 hour or two hour run, surveillance, what is the good 8 reasoning? Is it how it looks to the big boss? I'm 9 not really sure. I don't get it. Why not start it 10 earlier? That's the way it looks to us, to me.
11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Have you seen any 12 instances where these poorly timed surveillances where 13 it led to a problem because it was done that way where 14 your shift turns over to another shift or on any shift 15 that it happened that --
16 - The stress level. I can't 17 recall anything, but I'll tell you, the stress level 18 goes up.
19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: On the individuals 20 involved in the surveillance?
21 :* Oh yeah, oh yeah.
22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So you're working 23 under pressure. So the person who got it started and 24 the person who-has to assume it--
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1 on both sides.
2 Not that you can't handle it, but why 3 should you do that? Why should you do that?
4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: At what level are 5 decisions being made to send people to do that? Who 6 are the people that want their guys in the field on 7 the turnover?
8 I would have to say the OSs, 9 the Operations Superintendents have to be pushing --
10 whether it's looking a certain way or saying 11 something.
12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And that's where 13 you're sort of guessing what's the value of them doing 14 that, but it seems like they want their people busy at 15 shift turnover?
16 Whose shift is it? If you 17 say whose shift, it is the'OS's shift.
18 MR. BARBER: I'm a little puzzled because 19 let's say if you just say let's pick a turnover on a 20 Saturday morning, let's say that you got a shift 21 coming on and you've got a shift going off on 22 midnights, and you got one Op. Sup. or shift manager, 23 whatever you want to call them and he's come in and 24 he's going to relive the other one, the one guy --
25 basically, they're at the same level, so the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 posturing, if you will, the perception, it's like peer 2 to peer. It would be like you're talking to another
.3 NEO and doing something a certain way so you're 4 impressing an other NEO and it's really you're the 5 same level.
6 -* _I understand what you're 7 saying, but if you walk -- if you walk through the 8 hallway that leads to the control rooms, you'll see 9 these charts on the wall that gives a grade.
10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So they're tracking 11 --
12 A numeric grade for the 13 different -- there's five shifts, right? Check that 14 chart out sometimes.
15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Are surveillances a 16 part of that? Is that what they're tracking?
17 I don't know. But I don't 18 understand a lot of the things in that chart either.
19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You don't know what 20 goes into the numeric grade exactly?
21 .
22 MR. BARBER: What shift are you on right 23 now?
24 25 Okay. So you're on NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 now and who's coming on during days?
2 I forget the shift name.
3 MR. BARBER: Okay, all right.
4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Is there some sort of 5 requirement for -- on each shift for a certain number 6 of surveillances to be completed or at least started?
7 W I have no idea about that.
8 I have no idea, but I could tell you being here for(4 9 , so I've seen different acts, okay?
10 I won't call them comedy acts, but I've seen where and 11 they weren't always called OSs, they were called 12 senior shift supervisors, but I've seen where they 13 would hide in the drawer, one that would want to get 14 more credit. He would actually hide the next shift's 15 work into his drawer so he could get it the next day 16 and get more credit. I'm telling you.
17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: How far back does 18 that go?
19 That goes back either late 20 1970s -- sorry, mid-1980s. That guy is retired now, 21 but that's how things -- so I don't know if that still 22 exists. -
23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay, but you're 24 saying potentially that's what contributes to their 25 pressure for starting surveillances when they do it, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 it might go into this numeric grade that the OS has 2 received?
3 , That's what I'm talking 4 about, yes.
5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.
6 MR. BARBER: How about this next thing?
7 You've got a heading about saving time and schedule 8 pressure and then it looks like under that the first 9 item is trying to use the shop procedure instead of 10 using a tagging procedure and your example is a 22 11 waste gas compressor leakage.
12 'That's correct. What that 13 is -- I don't know all the technical names. I can't 14 recall like this all the technical names for the 15 procedures, but there's one we call the shop, right?
16 It's almost like an administrative procedure, a 17 general procedure, but it's called a shop and it's got 18 a long call letter. But in the shop, one of the 19 things in the shop is how are we going to handle --
20 what's the term I'm looking for? Where you control 21 the components' positions, you know it --
22 MR. BARBER: The tagging, the 23 administration --
24 . You know it, how a plant --
25 MR. BARBER: Configuration. -
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1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Configuration.
2 - There it is, configuration 3 control. It is a device in the shop, it's like an 4 attachment, right?
5 MR. BARBER: A line up type thing?
6 Whereas, if I take a valve 7 and for two hours, that's not going to be beyond my 8 shift. I open it and I fill out this sheet, right?
9 MR. BARBER: Okay.
10 -. It's off normal.
11 MR. BARBER: Okay.
12 a As long as it goes back to 13 its normal position before the end of the shift, we 14 don't have to (a) tag it or (b) put it in the normal 15 list or something like that, right? Which is -- it's 16 a nice device for that purpose. It gives short term 17 control paperwork, right? If we never did that, we'd 18 have -- like the turnover thing, right? If it got 19 lost with no tag, nobody. would know it's off normal, 20 but in this case, the boss and I won't say who it was, 21 we're looking for a gas leak in the waste gas header.
22 That's where you have active gas.
23 MR. BARBER: Right.
24 I had a rad waste operator 25 that day and I'm losing gas pressure in my gas decay NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 tech. It's a long story, but it all backs down to 2 we're trying to find a leak in the system and what 3 we're going to start with is this 22 waste gas 4 compressor.
5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: When did this happen?
6
- This was just last week. So 7 the boss -- and I commended the boss for deciding to 8 do something. That's good, we've got to do something.
9 But as we're talking, he's saying we're going to use 10 the shop. I says well, you know, what you want to do 11 is you want to close the discharge, close the section 12 and close this relief valve, relief line here. So 13 we're going to bottle the thing up and I say well, 14 don't you think that we should tag the breaker because 15 we got a whole thing is bottled up, don't you think we 16 should tag the breaker so nobody accidentally turns, 17 right? Because it's waste gas, radioactive.
18 He says no, we'll use a shop. I says 19 well, you think'that's safe enough because anybody can 20 go over and hit the switch. We're going to use a 21 shop. I wasn't happy with that. So I went around him 22 because with the units the way they are right now, 23 right, the rad, the boss that handles rad waste is the 24 non-outage unit.
25 MR. BARBER: Who were you talking to when NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
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1 you said you went around that guy, who was that?
2 W" W-1 Should I mention the name?
3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Yes.
6 MR. BARBER: Okay, so you were talking to 8
.9 10 MR. BARBER: Okay.
11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What day was this?
12 You said it was last week, do you know when?
13 I had rad waste. It could 14 have been the 31st, the Ist or the second, like which 15 day in particular, I don't know, but those are the 16 days I had rad waste.
17 Anyway, so I'm not happy, right? I'm 18 really pushed against this brick (Inaudible) tag open.
19 MR. BARBER:' Why do you think he didn't 20 want to -- he didn't want to tag it?
21 . Saving time and schedule 22 pressure.
23 MR. BARBER: Okay.
24 -. Saving time and schedule 25 pressure.
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1 MR. BARBER: Did he actually say something 2 that indicated that or did he say now --
3 WA- c,No, he didn't say that, but 4 why wouldn't you want to do that?
5 MR. BARBER: I don't know if there was 6 another reason maybe you would mention it.
7 VAN 0Okay. Well, anyway, I'm not 8 happy.
9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Did he fully 10 understand what you were looking at? Do you think he I1 had a good understanding?
12 Yes, I explained just -- I'm 13 emphatic when I talk. I am emphatic. I use my hands,
-14 my -- if I could use my hair I would. He knew.
15 MR. BARBER: Okay.
16 So I says. , while he was 17 looking at the prints (Phonetic) I said I'll be right 18 back. I didn't make a big scene. I go around the 19 desk and I talk to the'.. I 20 says !j'do you know what this guy wants to do to 21 your equipment because it's Unit 2 equipment?" He 22 understands.
23 MR. BARBER: Okay.
24 ;.I says he wants to bottle it 25 up which is a good thing we're looking for the leak, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 but the breaker, right? He says uh -- so pretend like 2 you didn't hear nothing, right? I says I'll go back 3 around and give you a wink or whatever. So I go back 4 to where is, right? I say hey, we're 5 going to bottle up your gas compressors. That was his 6 cue and he took it. He says oh, well, don't forget to 7 get the breakers. Well, nowa eyes are wide, 8 right? I don't know why he's pushing it to get his 9 way? I don't know. If anything, it's more work on 10 me. I have to go down, rack the breaker out, rack the 21 breaker in. Do you understand what I'm saying?
12 MR. BARBER: Yes, I do.
13 I'm not arguing not to do 14 that. I'm saying it's a good idea -- anyway, so -- I 15 said guys, I said you guys talk. I'll be back in 15 16 minutes. You guys talk. I came back in 15 minutes.
17 MR. BARBER: Just out of curiosity, since 18 this was a Unit 2 issue, why were you even talking to 19 him on Unit 1?
20 ,,Becausec 21 22 MR. BARBER: Oh.
23 You got it?
24 MR. BARBER: Yes.
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1 make sure that knew what we were going to do 2 with his equipment.
3 MR. BARBER: All right.
4 He deserves that much.
5 MR. BARBER: Okay.
6 But anyway, I got, I ended 7 up getting the involved too.
8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Who was that?
9 OrOF - That was, 10 said look, we have to talk, right?
11 MR. BARBER: Okay.
12 I So I'm going to let you guys 13 talk just like I did 15 minutes earlier and I'll come 14 back. Right? So what they ended up doing was a good 15 thing. They read blocking tags on all the isolations, 16 all the breaker --
17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Went through the 18 tagging procedure, not the shop procedure?
19
- That's correct. The safety 20 tagging procedure. So why should I have to do that?
21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Had you seen that 22 happen before? If not just with had you 23 seen that happen with other 24 Let me go through one --
25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: But had you seen that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 happen before? You're saying it wasn't spoken, but 2 you thought the issue was saving time and there was 3 schedule pressure on going through this with the shop 4 procedure, the inappropriate shop procedure. Had that 5 happened before?
6 I had not seen that before.
7 I had never seen that. It didn't matter to me what he 8 was trying to use. I wanted tags. It was going to be 9 tagged.
10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay, and now you 11 want it to go somewhere else. Go ahead.
12 . Right. Okay.
13 MR. BARBER: This Unit 2 outage, what's 14 this bay number 4 restoration of monitoring 2200 nuke 15 header? I'm reading this. I don't understand what --
16 , You're not familiar with the 17 system, but we have two bays per unit, right? You've 18 got three pumps in each bay, so you've got six pumps, 19 whatever. And then you've got the turbine header, 20 nonsafety, and then you've got two nuke headers, 21 right?
22 MR. BARBER: What's this when you talk 23 about service water again?
24 , Yes, service water is SW.
25 MR. BARBER: Okay.
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1 *The way I recall it two bay 2 has -- it has the first three pumps and four pay has 3 the second three pumps, right?
4 MR. BARBER: Okay.
5 You can time them together, 6 whatever, whatever and feed the world.
7 MR. BARBER: All right.
8 . Or you can close off the 9 17s, isolate each bay and work on a bay. In this case 10 here, two bay was the in-service bay.
11 MR. BARBER: Okay.
12 The in-service pump bay.
13 MR. BARBER: All right.
14 Along with 21 nuke header.
15 All right? Do you follow me so far?
16 MR. BARBER: Yes, I do, so far.
17 Four bay, four pump bay was 18 not pressurized right. Everything was fixed and we're 19 getting ready to pressurize, that was the big push 20 that morning.
21 22 header, nuke header was drained.
22 MR. BARBER: All right.
23 J So we're going to go --
24 MR. BARBER: On 4 bay, what was being 25 pressurized? You're saying get ready to pressurize, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 but the 22 nuke header was drained? Pressurize it to 2 what?
3 *I think you crack the 17s, 4 right? If you've got two bay in and you've got to 5 fill in a vent, four bay because everything is fixed 6 now, right?
7 MR. BARBER: Okay.
8 Then you crack the 17 and 9 you put water in the four bay.
10 MR. BARBER: Okay.
11 You press it up and fill in 12 the vent. So --
13 [END TAPE 1, SIDE A; BEGIN TAPE 1, SIDE B]
14 You need to go down to a 15 certain area and watch for leakage to let us know so 16 we'll stop pressurizing the bay. Okay, so I would --
17 I'm going down there and 10 minutes later he calls me 18 and says no, no, no. You don't want to look there.
19 You want to look in another spot. I say okay and I 20 can't remember exactly where the spot, the (Inaudible) 21 number, but 5, 10 minutes later he says no, no. You 22 don't want to look there. You want to look underneath 23 the RAP tanks, the big R-A-P tanks, right?
24 Underneath, you've got bilko (Phonetic) doors. It's 25 like a big basement, okay? That's where the service NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1
'I water lines come in.
11 2 Well, I don't know if the elbow is taken 3 off intentionally so they can isolate the bay from the 4 header, I don't know or whether they were just working 5 that elbow, but at any rate, underneath the RAP tanks 6 where the elbow, big elbow is taken off, right, 7 maintenance, right, after they had taken the elbow 8 off, they're going to redress the flange which they 9 did. They put the goop on there, all that stuff. So 10 you go down there and you see high intensity lights 11 shining on the flange. This is the pipe where the 12 water is going to come out if they have leakage where 13 they fill the bay. And I have high intensity lamps 14 shining on a flange.
15 MR. BARBER: Yes.
16 I've got six, seven, eight 17 wires all over the place. The next thing I know 18 there's no temporary sump hooked up to pump if we do 19 get water. And you've got these -- you've got new CRS 20 wannabes, the classes, right? These guys are not 21 licensed. My licensed implementation service water 22 guys sends the two nonlicensed guys out to help me.
23 I say guys, make sure you call i(Phonetic) 24 while I do something else, whatever else I was doing.
25 Let him know high intensity lamps hold the music.
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1 Well, guess what? We've got to fill the bay. I said 2 go back and tell him we don't have a temporary sump 3 down here. And his reply was we can use (Inaudible) 4 sump. Bullshit. In order to use the installed 5 permanent sump underneath the RAP tanks where the 6 bilko doors are, you have to sample with the GIPD 7 (Phonetic) code. You have to sample for bad ju-ju 8 (Phonetic) before -- because it pumps right overboard.
9 So by the time we're able to pump 10 anything, if anything leaks, it's going to hit the 11 lamp for sure and then where am I going to put the 12 water?
13 MR. BARBER: What's in the RAP tanks?
14 RAP. R-A-P. First one for 15 refueling water storage.
16 MR. BARBER: Okay.
17 Next one is aux. feed. And 18 last one is primary water. RAP.
19 MR. BARBER: It's an acronym that 20 describes three tanks.
21 WliRgt 22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Who is it that's 23 making the decision and telling you you can use the 24 pump under the RAP tank?
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1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
2 He was the service water 3 implementation team leader for CRS or whatever.
4 MR. BARBER: He was control room 5 supervisor?
6 M No, no, no.
7 MR. BARBER: Who was he?
8 For the outage, for the 9 outages you have implementation teams that are outside 10 of the control room. They're set up with their own II OS, outage, O-S. And he has areas like primary, 12 service water, balance of plant, electrical, right, 13 like four or five different areas and service water is 14 one of them.
15 MR. BARBER: Okay.
16 J And that's manned by a 17 certain ,.that's chosen -- whatever they do. But 18 -e was the man.
19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Why did he want to go 20 that way, do you know?
21 :. Schedule pressure.
22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Schedule pressure.
23 I Schedule pressure.
24 (Laughter.)
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1 safety? You hit high intensity lamps like that, you 2 are going to have flying glass.
3 MR. BARBER: Of course, you have extension 4 cords --
5 i Well, yes.
6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: When you talk about 7 schedule pressure, are you talking about production or 8 what I have to get done in these 8 hours9.259259e-5 days <br />0.00222 hours <br />1.322751e-5 weeks <br />3.044e-6 months <br /> or what is 9 it?
10 " Critical path. Critical 11 path is the term they use in outages. Critical path 12 -- I don't know, critical path.
13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.
14 .. I'm running out of time.
15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: I know and I don't 16 want to see you up against -- I want to ask you a few 17 questions though.
18 Considering the work environment and your 19 experience here is this -- and we'll go with recent 20 years, is this-an environment in which people raise 21 concerns specifically regarding nuclear safety? If 22 they have them, do they raise them?
231do 24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Do you do it without 25 fear of retaliation?
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1 If they retaliate, they 2 retaliate.
3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Have you ever felt 4 that you were retaliated against for having expressed 5 a concern?
6 No.
7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Are you aware of 8 anyone who would be fearful of raising a concern of a 9 nuclear safety nature?
10 New guys 11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay, why do you say 12 that?
13 . Afraid of losing their jobs.
14 Hey, they don't even get sick time for the first year, 15 right?
16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So just in a general 17 category, if they're new, they're going to be more --
18 i Absolutely.
19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: They may not want to 20 be seen that way?
21 That's correct.
22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Are you aware of any
.23 concerns that didn't get raised, based on a fear 24 coming from whatever reason?
25 No.
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1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Do you think concerns 2 of a nuclear safety nature get raised and get 3 addressed on site?
.4 Some guys do, some guys 5 don't. I have to say human nature. I'm here --
6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Right, there's a 7 company --
8 You know why I'm here, 9 because I want to be here. Okay? Because I -- the 10 guy that was announcing that you guys were doing this, 11 I said I don't want to miss out because I talk to the 12 people that I work for. I do that.
13 MR. BARBER: Do you have anything more 14 before you take off?
15 Yes 16 MR. BARBER: Can we just spend -- I want 17 to spend one or two minutes on 14 (Inaudible).
18 Yes.
19 MR. BARBER: We heard a lot about this.
20 But what we've heard is different than what you've 21 highlighted. You're really highlighting the method 22 used to shut the unit down.
23 I Uh-huh.
24 MR. BARBER: Now what was your question or 25 comment on that?
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1 *I know, first of all, your 2 background, operations?
3 MR. BARBER: Yes.
4 So you understand.
5 MR. BARBER: Yes, I understand. This is 6 the feed rad. valve. I know it was stuck about 75 7 percent open. And I know that generally with the 404, 8 four generators, the feed rad. valves have to move 9 kind of in step where they're all about the same 10 amount open.
11 If you go down, way down in 12 power to like 10, 15, your DP is like really low.
13 MR. BARBER: And you have to go on the 14 bypasses?
15 Yes. Well, now the other 16 three are wide open, right?
17 MR. BARBER: Okay.
18 *You're basically frozen, 19 aren't you? Right?
20 MR. BARBER: Right.
21 How safe is that, number 22 one.
23 MR. BARBER: What could the plant have 24 done or what could they have done to --
25 Trip.
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1 MR. BARBER: Trip the unit? And then 2 what? They go on aux. feed?
3 '. Aux. feed.
4 MR. BARBER: Okay.
5
- And what I wrote down here 6 is -- hey look, any time you trip, whether it's 7 certainly auto going out is a bad, bad -- any auto 8 ECCS, that's a big report. That's like in 15 minutes, 9 right? If you do it manually, that's a different kind 10 of report.
11 MR. BARBER: Right.
12 1 Right? But you don't want 13 any reports. Right? You would rather not have any S"14 reports.
15 MR. BARBER: Okay.
16 * * :1 I making sense?
17 MR. BARBER: Yes.
18 WJ.*' If you can bring the plant 19 down without having reportsthat you've had to trip at 20 a certain percent power, would you do it?
21 MR. BARBER: I understand your point. I 22 know the residents were following, the NRC residents, 23 inspectors, so they sort of knew what was going on.
24 Not all up to date, minute to minute--
25 They had to put an NCO in NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 the simulator for 8 hours9.259259e-5 days <br />0.00222 hours <br />1.322751e-5 weeks <br />3.044e-6 months <br /> to see how it's going to go.
2 MR. BARBER: Yes.
3 I don't know.
1i You're the 4 NRC. I was hoping for more of a feedback from you.
5 MR. BARBER: One of the dilemmas that we 6 would struggle within looking at these kinds of issues 7 is wherever you have a piece of equipment that's in 8 this case it was mechanically bound, we would not want 9 something to be done quickly in the interest to 10 safety, if in fact, the net result would be that it 11 would turn out to be an unsafe act.
12 Do you think?
13 MR. BARBER: I don't know. I don't know.
14 It's just like if you actually look at the tech specs 15 like for aux. feed, what you'll see is if you lose one 16 pump you have to take action in a certain amount of 17 time and it's a long time, you're assuming two hours-,
18 you lose two pumps, 12 hours1.388889e-4 days <br />0.00333 hours <br />1.984127e-5 weeks <br />4.566e-6 months <br />; you lose three, guess 19 what?
20 "1
- You got to stay where you' re 21 at.
22 MR. BARBER: You don't do anything because 23 moving the plant is unsafe. And so I know there was 24 discussions like that, but I don't know what the 25 outcome was about whether there would have been more NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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.- I £ 1 of a negative effect if the unit had been taken off 2 rapidly which was always an option. I just don't 3 know.
4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: I have another 5 question for you. Are you good on the 19th?
6 Yes.
7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: The incidents that 8 you've given on the schedule pressure, these two are 9 outage incidents that you talked about, the waste gas 10 compressor and the second one on the RAP tank issue.
11 Well, to tell you the truth, 12 the waste gas compressor was not part of the outage 13 work.
14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay, these are 15 happening during the recent outage, right?
16 . That's correct.
17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: My question for you 18 and I need you to think of it overall, more than just 19 in recent weeks is have you ever seen, felt or heard 20 of directives that placed production over safety? And 21 in that production over safety, may be seen as 22 megawatt mentality. We've heard it referred to.
23 Maybe pushing to the limit of nonLconservative 24 decision making. Think of it in terms of that. Have 25 you ever seen felt or heard that pressure yourself?
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1 I've felt the pressure, but 2 never heard the words. Do you understand what I'm 3 saying?
4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.
5 . Look, they would never say 6 that.
7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Right. But can you 8 point to an incident where it became this is an issue 9 of production over safety?
10 I can't answer that 11 question. It doesn't even make sense to me, all 12 right? The picture I am trying to show is that why 13 would you do it this way when you can do it another 14 way?
15 SPECIAL AGENTNEFF: Right, you're talking 16 about in terms of maintenance and other --
17 The whole bag. It just 18 seems to me it's either to impress, they do these 19 things to either impress the next boss up or to save 20 money. It has nothing to do with being safe, not in 21 my mind. But if a person is trying to get by me, I'm 22 driving 50 miles an hour run, why get in my truck when 23 you can pass me? Why act like that? So why act like 24 this? It just doesn't make any sense.
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1 saying is all the incidents you've documented you 2 attribute to what your impression is it's not the 3 right way to run the plant?
4 . That is correct.
5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.
6 That's all I've got. I do 7 have to go. Look, I appreciate your time.
8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: I appreciate your 9 time.
10 *.. Trying to interpret --
11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Have I or any other 12 NRC representative offered you any promises of reward 13 or threatened you in any manner with an exchange for 14 your information?
15 : No.
16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Have you appeared 17 here freely and voluntarily?
18 Yes.
19 SPECIAL AGENT-NEFF: Do you have anything 20 else you'd like to add to the record and I understand 21 that we are rushing to get you to close out on your 22 shift.
23 If I had, more time, maybe 24 next time, but not right now, okay?
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1 missed anything significant?
2 *' No. That's good enough.
3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay, so if we have 4 any more questions, then we can follow up with you?
5 Ys 6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: One more time, can I 7 have your extension?
8 Ys 9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Are you 10 interested in doing a transcript review when this is 11 available?
12 Yes.
13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay, it might be a 14 little while only because of what we've got going on, 15 but if I can, I'll arrange it.
16 That's good.
17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Thank you for your 18 time.
19 .. Thank you.
20 (Pause.)
21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: To add to the record, 22 this interviewed ended at approximately 6:25 a.m.
23 (Whereupon, at 6:25 a.m., the interview 24 was concluded.)
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CERTIFICATE This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the matter of:
Name of Proceeding: Interview of Docket Number: 1-2003-051F Location: Hancock's Bridge, NJ were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission taken by me and, thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under the direction of the court reporting company, and that the transcript is a true and accurate record of the foregoing proceedings as recorded on tape(s) provided by the NRC.
Francesc-a Zook Official Transcriber Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.
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